I don't think they can legally do that.

Unfortunately, they can... The broadcast flag is part of the ATSC standard, and there's nothing that says a station or network can't turn it on at will. However, due to a huge amount of petitioning of Congress and a ruling by the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals, the requirement for receiving equipment to obey the flag was shot down a few years ago.

Right now, only MS Vista obeys the flag for whatever reason. Microsoft wasn't required to implement it, but they did - still waiting for news from MS as to why.

Here's the link to the antenna that works so well:

http ://www .youtube .com /watch? v= EWQhlmJTMzw

To further clear up why I am confused: I looked at antennaweb.com and according to them, WOIO 19-1 is a yellow VHF with a compass heading of 318 degrees and 16 miles away. And the NBC is also yellow VHF, compass heading of 319, and 16 miles away. That seems pretty close but I don't get NBC.

The only difference is that is says CBS frequency is 10 and NBC frequency is 2. I don't know what this means but this must be the problem?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

An attic antenna can reduce the signal by 50% (walls, insulation foil, roof shingles, etc...). I had the same issues trying to get the notoriously weak ch's 3 & 19 using a full size directional antenna in the attic. Switching to a much smaller outdoor non-directional antenna solved the problem.

Be careful with "boosters" as they are often not needed and can simply amplify (boost) an already bad signal. Any chance you could temporarily run your antenna outside? This would at least give you an idea how much your attic is hampering your signal(s).

Unfortunately, they can... The broadcast flag is part of the ATSC standard, and there's nothing that says a station or network can't turn it on at will. However, due to a huge amount of petitioning of Congress and a ruling by the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals, the requirement for receiving equipment to obey the flag was shot down a few years ago.

Right now, only MS Vista obeys the flag for whatever reason. Microsoft wasn't required to implement it, but they did - still waiting for news from MS as to why.

Why in the world would MS do that? I have a Media Center PC running Windows XP and I never use it for media because I don't know how or why I would, but if I wanted to why would they restrict me?

Oh and for those of you wondering my wife bought this PC for me. While she is very intelligent about PC's she is clueless when it comes to Media and she thought this would be something I would want after she described what I like and do the sales guy at CC.

I don't even know if there is a cable card slot in there, but there probably is if I open it up. And that makes me wonder now that I have a TiVo why would they put the slot inside and not just on the outside? Oh well, it's old now it's about two years old. Maybe the new ones have slots on the outside.

Why in the world would MS do that? I have a Media Center PC running Windows XP and I never use it for media because I don't know how or why I would, but if I wanted to why would they restrict me?..........

You haven't even scratched the surface of Copy Protection, DRM, Licensing, etc... Here is just a recent example of just how badly DRM can go:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080422-drm-sucks-redux-microsoft-to-nuke-msn-music-drm-keys.html

Apple is just as bad (if not worse), I'm not picking on M$. But, yes, these and many other companies do indeed restrict your media access and use.
Not unlike a DVR that will restrict you from off-loading a recorded program (media) to another hard drive.

An attic antenna can reduce the signal by 50% (walls, insulation foil, roof shingles, etc...). I had the same issues trying to get the notoriously weak ch's 3 & 19 using a full size directional antenna in the attic. Switching to a much smaller outdoor non-directional antenna solved the problem.

Be careful with "boosters" as they are often not needed and can simply amplify (boost) an already bad signal. Any chance you could temporarily run your antenna outside? This would at least give you an idea how much your attic is hampering your signal(s).

I actually ran it outside once before to test it, although it wasn't up on the roof, and it was the same results as inside (this is when it was just inside my computer room). Perhaps I'll try putting it outside on the roof just for fun, or maybe I'll just have to wait til next year like nickdawg says to get 3.

I would do what you did and buy a smaller outdoor non-directional antenna except that I only spent 5 dollars to build this and now on principle I'm trying to "beat the system" if you know what I mean. ;)

Actually I do have a credit at circuit city right now...what is the antenna brand that worked for you?

Thank you

I actually ran it outside once before to test it, although it wasn't up on the roof, and it was the same results as inside (this is when it was just inside my computer room). Perhaps I'll try putting it outside on the roof just for fun, or maybe I'll just have to wait til next year like nickdawg says to get 3.

I would do what you did and buy a smaller outdoor non-directional antenna except that I only spent 5 dollars to build this and now on principle I'm trying to "beat the system" if you know what I mean. ;)

Actually I do have a credit at circuit city right now...what is the antenna brand that worked for you?

Thank you

It's far more discrete than a std "skeleton" antenna or even a dish:
http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewitem.asp?p=SMS2000

Thank you...I will look into this one.

Hi,
Does anyone know what QAM frequency Fox 8 moved to on Time Warner, in the Eastern Cleveland Suburbs (University Heights - old adelphia area).

I used to have it working on 679250, but since the time warner channel change-around, it seems to have stopped working. All my other clear QAM local channels are still working fine on their old frequencies.

I'm using MediaPortal as my DVR on a PC btw.

Thanks,
Dan

Is anyone receiving WBNX-HD via QAM on TW in the North Canton area.
TIA

Why in the world would MS do that?

Oh, I can think of a variety of reasons... World domination, their desire to dictate how computers should work, or maybe an agreement reached with some other company that requires them to implement the broadcast flag in order to include codec XYZ...

My hatred of MS aside, my guess is this was due to either an upper-level manager making an "administrative decision" or a lower-level programmer simply goofing up, either case indicating that somebody didn't understand the ramifications of their decision.

Hi,
Does anyone know what QAM frequency Fox 8 moved to on Time Warner, in the Eastern Cleveland Suburbs (University Heights - old adelphia area).

I used to have it working on 679250, but since the time warner channel change-around, it seems to have stopped working. All my other clear QAM local channels are still working fine on their old frequencies.

Out here near Chagrin Falls, it hasn't moved. I'm pretty sure we're on the same system as the Heights. It shares channel 105 with WEWS. (WEWS is 105.1, WJW is 105.2.) So you should still be getting it at 679.25 MHz as QAM.

Oh, I can think of a variety of reasons... World domination, their desire to dictate how computers should work, or maybe an agreement reached with some other company that requires them to implement the broadcast flag in order to include codec XYZ...

My hatred of MS aside, my guess is this was due to either an upper-level manager making an "administrative decision" or a lower-level programmer simply goofing up, either case indicating that somebody didn't understand the ramifications of their decision.

I see. So Bill Gates is really Lex Luthor! I should have figured that out years ago.;)

I think the "world domination" theory may be a little antequated at this time. Microsoft has got lots of compitition now, maybe not so much in the platform area but in other areas it has tried to go into. Apple sure has knocked them out of quite a few high tech areas, not to mention that I still like Apple Computers better then Microsoft myself. And GMail also is a big pia to them.

Plus that federal law suit they got a few years shot them down a bit. And don't forget their infamous Ultimate TV. Yes, I know some of you may have loved it but it flopped.

IMHO their Media Center DVR capabilities are laughable if the are accepting that flag. My wife tells me mine doesn't really take a cable card but more like a board that goes into a slot. Who knows if that would work with cable company technology today?

Not to mention that Media Center doesnt even recognize AAC files, at least mine doesn't. Actually I kind of wonder if Apple isn't the one now seeking world domination. I really haven't found a way to get by without using i-Tunes because you have to have the evil Quicktime installed for so many other things. I converted most of my files to M3P but if I just have quicktime installed it flags them as "movie" files and media player doesn't get it. Also my TiVo S3 doesn't get it either when that happens.

At one time you could use i-Tunes to convert AAC to MP3 but that doesn't seem to be available anymore. Or else I'm missing it.

.............IMHO their Media Center DVR capabilities are laughable if the are accepting that flag..............
At one time you could use i-Tunes to convert AAC to MP3 but that doesn't seem to be available anymore. Or else I'm missing it.

Home Media Centers/Servers/Home Automation computers are certainly the wave of the future, but are still in their early development stages so they are quite glitchy and not very user friendly........yet.

Your AAC to MP3 conversion problem may well be the DRM issue previously mentioned. There are workarounds to removing DRM protection but it's "jumping through hoops" to have flexible access to your legally purchased music/media that should not require such measures. Removing DRM is illegal, though it would be difficult to prove this in court. DRM, among other issues, is why I've always avoided iTunes/AAC formats.

Home Media Centers/Servers/Home Automation computers are certainly the wave of the future, but are still in their early development stages so they are quite glitchy and not very user friendly........yet.

Your AAC to MP3 conversion problem may well be the DRM issue previously mentioned. There are workarounds to removing DRM protection but it's "jumping through hoops" to have flexible access to your legally purchased music/media that should not require such measures. Removing DRM is illegal, though it would be difficult to prove this in court. DRM, among other issues, is why I've always avoided iTunes/AAC formats.

Yes, they have removed certain programs from the web that will allow you to remove protection. But when you transfer a CD to iTunes it will make it an unprotected AAC file. You USE to be able to make those MP3 if you wanted to but I don't believe you can anymore.

iTunes is also now selling DMR free files, but not necessarily what you may want. I bought one a few weeks back before I realized they finallly had put the AX to DMR removal. I wonder if that's why my computer crashed, it was right around that time?

Anyway I downloaded the new Jack Bruce and Robin Trower album and it was DMR free and I didn't even realize it until I went to remove the protected files.

When my computer crashed I lost My Fair Tunes and I can't find it anywhere on the web anymore. Fortuantely all my music was backed up to another computer.

So now if it's not DMR free I'll just buy the CD. I bought The Stoned Coyotes 8 on CD from the web site, it was 12 bucks with shipping.

Remember when CD's were 18.00 at the store?

Not true. You can still rip files from CDs into iTunes in either AAC or MP3.

Also, Amazon.com is selling downloadable music in unprotected MP3 format. Their download program automatically adds the songs to iTunes. They have a bigger selection of unprotected music than the iTunes Music Store and their prices are better (.89 per track, generally).


Yes, they have removed certain programs from the web that will allow you to remove protection. But when you transfer a CD to iTunes it will make it an unprotected AAC file. You USE to be able to make those MP3 if you wanted to but I don't believe you can anymore.

When my computer crashed I lost My Fair Tunes and I can't find it anywhere on the web anymore.

Not that I condone this kind of thing, but http://www.hymn-project.org.

Not true. You can still rip files from CDs into iTunes in either AAC or MP3.

Also, Amazon.com is selling downloadable music in unprotected MP3 format. Their download program automatically adds the songs to iTunes. They have a bigger selection of unprotected music than the iTunes Music Store and their prices are better (.89 per track, generally).

Yes, I'm well aware of Amazon and they do have a great selection. I checked them out for The Stone Coyotes and they had 7 albums from them available for download......but not The Stone Coyotes 8!!!:mad: They did have the CD.

I don't care if it's AAC, I think I've heard AAC is better then MP3 but it doesn't matter since I have the Universal Music Converter plug in for my TiVo and it will play AAC files from my computer.

But can you still convert AAC to MP3? You use to be able to do that with unprotected AAC files. I don't see that on iTunes anymore.

Not that I condone this kind of thing, but http://www.hymn-project.org.

Heh Heh. Have you actually clicked on those links. It's like chasing your tail. If you go to the forum (http://www.hymn-project.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1314) you will see why.

As far as "condone" them there is nothing wrong with doing it provided you don't share it which I don't. I just remove the protection because my TiVo won't play the protected files. I don't share them with anyone.

........I don't care if it's AAC, I think I've heard AAC is better then MP3 but it doesn't matter since I have the Universal Music Converter plug in for my TiVo and it will play AAC files from my computer.

But can you still convert AAC to MP3? You use to be able to do that with unprotected AAC files. I don't see that on iTunes anymore.

Lossy is lossy. They are both compressed lossy formats.

Yes, you can remove DRM protection on many files by first copying the file to a CD then puting/converting those files where/how you want. That's one of the "jump through hoops" steps I refered to earlier and if you purchased that song you should not be required to do such silly things. :)

I'm sure there are still iTunes/AAC to *pick your format* converters out there. I was well advised against iTunes/AAC from the get go so I have no knowledge or experience in such converters.

But can you still convert AAC to MP3? You use to be able to do that with unprotected AAC files. I don't see that on iTunes anymore.

When you set your ripping format (AAC or MP3 under Preferences/Advanced/Importing), iTunes gives you the option to convert tracks into the same format. For example, to convert AAC to MP3, you first set your ripping preference to MP3. Then when you click on a file, you are given the option to convert the file from AAC to MP3.

This works in the reverse as well. Of course, as already pointed out, this conversion further compresses the file.

Lossy is lossy. They are both compressed lossy formats.

Yes, you can remove DRM protection on many files by first copying the file to a CD then puting/converting those files where/how you want. That's one of the "jump through hoops" steps I refered to earlier and if you purchased that song you should not be required to do such silly things. :)

I'm sure there are still iTunes/AAC to *pick your format* converters out there. I was well advised against iTunes/AAC from the get go so I have no knowledge or experience in such converters.

Yep, that's jumping through hoops, but I gotcha you. I didn't even think about that.

When you set your ripping format (AAC or MP3 under Preferences/Advanced/Importing), iTunes gives you the option to convert tracks into the same format. For example, to convert AAC to MP3, you first set your ripping preference to MP3. Then when you click on a file, you are given the option to convert the file from AAC to MP3.

This works in the reverse as well. Of course, as already pointed out, this conversion further compresses the file.

I'll take a look at that. Thanks for the info.

When you set your ripping format (AAC or MP3 under Preferences/Advanced/Importing), iTunes gives you the option to convert tracks into the same format. For example, to convert AAC to MP3, you first set your ripping preference to MP3. Then when you click on a file, you are given the option to convert the file from AAC to MP3.

This works in the reverse as well. Of course, as already pointed out, this conversion further compresses the file.

Yes, and each lossy to lossy conversion degrades the audio even further. :eek:

Heh Heh. Have you actually clicked on those links. It's like chasing your tail. If you go to the forum (http://www.hymn-project.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1314) you will see why.

As far as "condone" them there is nothing wrong with doing it provided you don't share it which I don't. I just remove the protection because my TiVo won't play the protected files. I don't share them with anyone.

There are hundreds of thousands of threads on various forums (fori?) as to whether or not "there is nothing wrong" with it. ;)

But you're preaching to the choir. Let's not get that started here, though.

So that we're back on track, what do you suppose the odds are of Channel 5 showing a good Cavs game this afternoon with no technical hiccups? :rolleyes:

There are hundreds of thousands of threads on various forums (fori?) as to whether or not "there is nothing wrong" with it. ;)

But you're preaching to the choir. Let's not get that started here, though.

So that we're back on track, what do you suppose the odds are of Channel 5 showing a good Cavs game this afternoon with no technical hiccups? :rolleyes:

Better yet, what are the odds the Cavs are going to give a good game?? :eek::eek::eek:

They've gotten this far, couldn't you give them just a little credit? :rolleyes:

They've gotten this far, couldn't you give them just a little credit? :rolleyes:

I'm not giving NewsChannel 5 ANY credit!! Their "eff-up" required me to adjust my H/V position settings to adjust their excessive amount of blank space under the ESPN news/score bar at the bottom of the screen.:mad:

Go Cavs :D

I'm not giving NewsChannel 5 ANY credit!! Their "eff-up" required me to adjust my H/V position settings to adjust their excessive amount of blank space under the ESPN news/score bar at the bottom of the screen.:mad:

Go Cavs :D

I had the game on the last quarter so I could watch them loose.;)

I didn't see any picture problems at all. Then again I don't have a way to adjust my picture up in down with this TV. I'm happy to say when I ran the HDnet calibration none of my lines had any color in them so it didn't need adjusting.

Hook, your tv must have overscan like mine. I can't see it on my lcd tv. My projector in my theater doesn't have overscan enabled, and there is definately a black bar at the bottom of the screen because they have the picture shifted up too much. Channel 5-HD has been this way for quite a while.

The Cavs gave it the ole college try didn't they? I've never seen such a one man show. I feel bad for Labron. It's like no one on the team wants it... at all, except Labron. He's the only one with a competetive spirit. I just don't get it. :(:confused:

Some show seem like the freeze lately on ABC and some other HD channels on TW using Motorola box. Is anyone else have this happening? Is this a TW or box issue? Or is it a station issue. Just happened on ABC and also seems to happen on Greys Anatomy. Thanks!

Some show seem like the freeze lately on ABC and some other HD channels on TW using Motorola box. Is anyone else have this happening? Is this a TW or box issue? Or is it a station issue. Just happened on ABC and also seems to happen on Greys Anatomy. Thanks!

Yeah, I noticed the freeze ups during the after game local interview. Pretty bad.

And for the record guys, I see it all happening again. The great L.A. Lakers vs Boston Celtics rivalry is returning.:D

The Cavs gave it the ole college try didn't they? I've never seen such a one man show. I feel bad for Labron. It's like no one on the team wants it... at all, except Labron. He's the only one with a competetive spirit. I just don't get it. :(:confused:

See that's the big problem with the Cavs IMHO. They just rely too much on Labron.

Personally, I'd like to see him in the purple and gold playing with Kolby on the Lakers.

Labron, do you hear that call? It's Hollywood. Lakers. Dynasties. Huge Endorsements. Hang out with Jack Nicholas. They have a spot for you.;)

Fook the Lakers, the Cavs just need some better players. Just a decent Center would be a DRAMATIC inprovement.

I had the game on the last quarter so I could watch them loose.;)

I didn't see any picture problems at all. Then again I don't have a way to adjust my picture up in down with this TV. I'm happy to say when I ran the HDnet calibration none of my lines had any color in them so it didn't need adjusting.

Hook, your tv must have overscan like mine. I can't see it on my lcd tv. My projector in my theater doesn't have overscan enabled, and there is definately a black bar at the bottom of the screen because they have the picture shifted up too much. Channel 5-HD has been this way for quite a while.

I have a Plasma TV and the overscan is great. Almost nothing is "cut off". It's nice, as long as the networks keep up their end. I always hated SDTVs b/c of things like the Action News logo being cut off or channel bugs or other text right in the corner. Now I watch everything with sidebars so that's not a problem. But some HD channels are bad. I was watching NYPD Blue on TNT HD:rolleyes: and it was definately a stretched analog upconvert. The one edge was fuzzy and a sizeable amout of blank space was left.

WEWS HD has been that way for awhile. It was slightly out of position around the time they went HD but it has been worse lately.

Do they not have even ONE HD monitor in the building? Do none of their employees have HD or watch their own damn channel?

WEWS is a technical nightmare. I should have known better. :D

Fook the Lakers, the Cavs just need some better players. Just a decent Center would be a DRAMATIC inprovement.


:confused:....Z has been the lone staple of consistency on this squad other than LBJ this season and in the playoffs (not counting todays game).

See that's the big problem with the Cavs IMHO. They just rely too much on Labron.

Personally, I'd like to see him in the purple and gold playing with Kolby on the Lakers.

Labron, do you hear that call? It's Hollywood. Lakers. Dynasties. Huge Endorsements. Hang out with Jack Nicholas. They have a spot for you.;)

Wait, are we talking about LeBron and Kobe? :D:D:D:D:D

:confused:....Z has been the lone staple of consistency on this squad other than LBJ this season and in the playoffs (not counting todays game).

I know, I'm just ticked because he played ball for like 15 minutes today, the rest of the time he was like a zombie. :rolleyes:

Wait, are we talking about LeBron and Kobe? :D:D:D:D:D

yeah...just like I said.:D;)

:confused:....Z has been the lone staple of consistency on this squad other than LBJ this season and in the playoffs (not counting todays game).

Oh, please. Z is far from "consistency". The only players worth keeping are LBJ and Delonte West. The rest of them have proved to be variously useless in the last two seasons, no heart.

Well at least I won't give a sh*t about ABC/ESPN's lousy 720p presentation the rest of the NBA season because I won't be watching it, LOL.

Mr Quicken Loans needs to step up and buy some backup talent for LeBron. But maybe with the housing market the way it is now, he can't afford it. :D

............Mr Quicken Loans needs to step up and buy some backup talent for LeBron. But maybe with the housing market the way it is now, he can't afford it. :D

If Mr. Q wants to keep LeBron beyond his current contract he had better be socking away LOTS of cash now! Unfortunately, to do so greatly hampers Q's ability to buy supporting players in the interim. :confused:

One man does not make a team, and a team relying on one man is going to be disappointed when he bolts for a bigger pay check. ;)

I had the game on the last quarter so I could watch them loose.;)

I didn't see any picture problems at all. Then again I don't have a way to adjust my picture up in down with this TV. I'm happy to say when I ran the HDnet calibration none of my lines had any color in them so it didn't need adjusting.

Perhaps had they played 'loose' they'd have had a better chance of not 'losing'?

Perhaps had they played 'loose' they'd have had a better chance of not 'losing'?

Exactly! I love it when you make a typo and someone takes the time to point it out to the world.:rolleyes:

I know I've seen this discussed many times so please excuse me for asking again.

Since I got this digital converter I know that some of the channels actually are broadcasting on UHF even though their analog is VHF, correct?

So what channels broadcast on VHF and who's on UHF. I'm more concerned with WEWS and WJW. As it stands right now I can't get anything out of WKYC, matter of fact it's so bad that I actually set my receiver on channel 3 and got improved reception over channel 4.:confused:

And for the stations that are UHF does moving the rabbit ears help at all or should I just fool with the center antenna. I know raising the grain up full blast seems to help.

Thanks in advance.

I know I've seen this discussed many times so please excuse me for asking again.

Since I got this digital converter I know that some of the channels actually are broadcasting on UHF even though their analog is VHF, correct?

So what channels broadcast on VHF and who's on UHF. I'm more concerned with WEWS and WJW. As it stands right now I can't get anything out of WKYC, matter of fact it's so bad that I actually set my receiver on channel 3 and got improved reception over channel 4.:confused:

And for the stations that are UHF does moving the rabbit ears help at all or should I just fool with the center antenna. I know raising the grain up full blast seems to help.

Thanks in advance.


vhf WJW 8 FOX CLEVELAND, OH 74° 7.8 8
vhf WOIO-DT 19.1 CBS SHAKER HEIGHTS, OH 67° 9.5 10
vhf WJW-DT 8.1 FOX CLEVELAND, OH Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 74° 7.8
vhf WEWS 5 ABC CLEVELAND, OH 69° 8.0 5
vhf WKYC-DT 3.1 NBC CLEVELAND, OH 69° 9.8 2
vhf WKYC 3 NBC CLEVELAND, OH 69° 9.8 3

uhf WOIO 19 CBS SHAKER HEIGHTS, OH 67° 9.5 19
uhf WJW-DT 8.1 FOX CLEVELAND, OH 74° 7.8 31
uhf WEWS-DT 5.1 ABC CLEVELAND, OH 69° 8.0 15
uhf WQHS-DT 61.1 UNI Cleveland, OH 68° 9.1 34
uhf WUAB-DT 43.1 MNT LORAIN, OH 66° 8.1 28
uhf WUAB 43 MNT LORAIN, OH 66° 8.1 43
uhf WVIZ 25 PBS CLEVELAND, OH 82° 6.1 25
uhf WQHS 61 UNI Cleveland, OH 68° 9.1 61
uhf WVIZ-DT 25.1 PBS CLEVELAND, OH 82° 6.1 26
uhf WBNX 55 CW AKRON, OH 69° 9.4 55
uhf WBNX-DT 55.1 CW AKRON, OH 69° 9.4 30

vhf WJW 8 FOX CLEVELAND, OH 74° 7.8 8
vhf WOIO-DT 19.1 CBS SHAKER HEIGHTS, OH 67° 9.5 10
vhf WJW-DT 8.1 FOX CLEVELAND, OH Feb 17, 2009 (post-transition) 74° 7.8
vhf WEWS 5 ABC CLEVELAND, OH 69° 8.0 5
vhf WKYC-DT 3.1 NBC CLEVELAND, OH 69° 9.8 2
vhf WKYC 3 NBC CLEVELAND, OH 69° 9.8 3

uhf WOIO 19 CBS SHAKER HEIGHTS, OH 67° 9.5 19
uhf WJW-DT 8.1 FOX CLEVELAND, OH 74° 7.8 31
uhf WEWS-DT 5.1 ABC CLEVELAND, OH 69° 8.0 15
uhf WQHS-DT 61.1 UNI Cleveland, OH 68° 9.1 34
uhf WUAB-DT 43.1 MNT LORAIN, OH 66° 8.1 28
uhf WUAB 43 MNT LORAIN, OH 66° 8.1 43
uhf WVIZ 25 PBS CLEVELAND, OH 82° 6.1 25
uhf WQHS 61 UNI Cleveland, OH 68° 9.1 61
uhf WVIZ-DT 25.1 PBS CLEVELAND, OH 82° 6.1 26
uhf WBNX 55 CW AKRON, OH 69° 9.4 55
uhf WBNX-DT 55.1 CW AKRON, OH 69° 9.4 30

Since I'm in Bainbridge that kind of explains why I can sort of get WOIO. That's not too far from Shaker Heights.

But WKYC....not a chance. Best station is WQHS but my cocatoo only speakes cockatooeses and English.

Cockatooese is a kind of babbling of sorts, speaking but not making any sense. When he wants to argue he frequently uses this.

Since I'm in Bainbridge that kind of explains why I can sort of get WOIO. That's not too far from Shaker Heights.

But WKYC....not a chance. Best station is WQHS but my cocatoo only speakes cockatooeses and English.

Cockatooese is a kind of babbling of sorts, speaking but not making any sense. When he wants to argue he frequently uses this.

Yeah, ch. 3 is always going to be *iffy* the further out you go. I'm sure I'm much closer to the towers than you and I only get 75% signal with an outdoor antenna for ch. 3.

Since I'm in Bainbridge that kind of explains why I can sort of get WOIO. That's not too far from Shaker Heights.

But WKYC....not a chance. Best station is WQHS but my cocatoo only speakes cockatooeses and English.

Cockatooese is a kind of babbling of sorts, speaking but not making any sense. When he wants to argue he frequently uses this.

So he's like one of those Spanish-American "spit-fire" type women. They seem to speak perfect English until they get mad at you... :D

I know I've seen this discussed many times so please excuse me for asking again.

Since I got this digital converter I know that some of the channels actually are broadcasting on UHF even though their analog is VHF, correct?

So what channels broadcast on VHF and who's on UHF. I'm more concerned with WEWS and WJW. As it stands right now I can't get anything out of WKYC, matter of fact it's so bad that I actually set my receiver on channel 3 and got improved reception over channel 4.:confused:

And for the stations that are UHF does moving the rabbit ears help at all or should I just fool with the center antenna. I know raising the grain up full blast seems to help.

Thanks in advance.
Hook - to correct some erroneous information posted earlier, WKYC and WOIO are the only local VHF channels right now. You need to go by the frequency assignments (noted below), not the analog channel number to which it resolves. Because of it's low VHF frequency, and the distance, WKYC will be hard to get for you.

Also, with the exception of WVIZ (which is on a temporary, very low power transmitter on Brookpark Road), all of the towers for the stations noted below are within 2 miles of each other (about 18-20 miles from Bainbridge town hall).

The good news is that, according to antennaweb.org, it looks like WKYC will be moving to UHF-17 in Feb 2009, which should make it infinitely easier to get. Unfortunately, it also says that WJW will be moving to VHF-8 which will likely make it more difficult to receive.

VHF Stations
2.1 - WKYC (NBC)
2.2 - Weather Plus
10.1 - WOIO (CBS)
10.2 - Weather Now

UHF Stations
15.1 - WEWS (ABC)
26.1 - WVIZ (PBS)
28.1 - WUAB (My43)
30.1 - WBNX (CW)
31.1 - WJW (Fox)
34.1 - WQHS (Univision)

Regarding your antenna, I've found that slight movements/rotations can make a big difference. Try moving both the rabbit ears and the center. You should be able to find a single position where you can get all the UHF stations (except for WVIZ).

Also, try turning the gain down or completely off until you're absolutely sure you can't get stations without it. In many cases, you're either going to amplify a bad signal and/or cause multi-path problems.

If you're not satisfied with the results, the Philips PHDTV1 is under $20 and worth a try (thanks for the link, Smarty-pants):

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007XDI54

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007XDI54
(^working link^)

Hook - to correct some erroneous information posted earlier, WKYC and WOIO are the only local VHF channels right now.

VHF Stations
2.1 - WKYC (NBC)
2.2 - Weather Plus
10.1 - WOIO (CBS)
10.2 - Weather Now

UHF Stations
15.1 - WEWS (ABC)
26.1 - WVIZ (PBS)
28.1 - WUAB (My43)
30.1 - WBNX (CW)
31.1 - WJW (Fox)
34.1 - WQHS (Univision)

While this is true, it doesn't tell the whole story. It's convenient to divide channels into VHF vs UHF, but if you examine the actual frequencies in use, you'll see that it's only the lowest VHF frequencies that are particularly troublesome. There are really three frequency ranges to consider:

Low VHF (channels 2-6): 55-85MHz
High VHF (channels 7-13) 175-215MHz
UHF (channels 14-83) 470-885MHz

So while the upper VHF channels may create some challenges, the lower ones are going to be FAR more difficult to pull in cleanly.

You probably aren't going to get WKYC-DT until they scoot off of channel 2 onto channel 17 next February. And you probably won't get WVIZ-DT until they join WKYC-DT and power up a full signal.

I'm guessing WJW-DT won't be a bad signal on VHF 8 next year. WOIO's problem on 10 is more related to how it gets clobbered from CFPL over on the other side of the lake...

Hook - to correct some erroneous information posted earlier, .....
The good news is that, according to antennaweb.org.......

Antennaweb.org is where I got the posted information from (cut & paste).

Perhaps if you pointed out the erroneous ch/freq information I could then inform Antennaweb so they can correct it on their web site.

You probably aren't going to get WKYC-DT until they scoot off of channel 2 onto channel 17 next February. And you probably won't get WVIZ-DT until they join WKYC-DT and power up a full signal.

I'm guessing WJW-DT won't be a bad signal on VHF 8 next year. WOIO's problem on 10 is more related to how it gets clobbered from CFPL over on the other side of the lake...

I thought I had read that one of the channels were going back to VHF next year. So WJW is going back to VHF.

Since the terk antenna you guys gave me a link for is cheap enough, wouldn't that eliminate any chance of getting a VHF signal?

As it is now I have a tough time getting the best station I receive, WEWS in the high 60's. And I don't mind putting out 20 bucks on a new antenna for the bird, I mean we spend over 100.00 each month on toys for them anyway. But keep in mind it is for a bird, not for me. What bothers me is when I go in his room and the signal is stuttering or something I always stop and start trying to adjust the darn thing. And as far as the grain goes, again it's for the bird and it's not a HD tv just an analog converted signal.

I really don't know if Tyler (the bird) even minds the stuttering he's still getting a much better picture then he ever got before.:cool:

Antennaweb.org is where I got the posted information from (cut & paste).

Perhaps if you pointed out the erroneous ch/freq information I could then inform Antennaweb so they can correct it on their web site.
Ah, I see the disconnect. Went back and reread you post and the info is correct. Hook was asking for info on digital stations and I missed the fact that you included analog stations in your list. :o I typically select the "Show Digital Stations Only" button to filter out the analogs.

I thought I had read that one of the channels were going back to VHF next year. So WJW is going back to VHF.

Since the terk antenna you guys gave me a link for is cheap enough, wouldn't that eliminate any chance of getting a VHF signal?
I get all the local DT stations (except for WVIZ) with that Philips antenna. That includes VHF stations WKYC and WOIO. All are at 95%+ signal strength with no amplifier or gain being used. That being said, I am 7.5-9.5 miles away whereas you're likely 18-20 miles away from the towers. I'm not sure what effect the added distance, transmission patterns, and terrain will have on the signal.

Also, you may have been using Terk in the generic sense, but the Philips model to which the link refers is different. Not saying a Terk brand won't work, just that I have no experience with it. They used to carry these at Sears, BB, and CC under the Philips or Zenith brands, which may have made it more convenient to try and return, but I don't see them available on their websites anymore.

Hope this helps.

When you all turn on the 8300HD, which station is being shown? The guide says its 71 COMMTV, but actually it's non-stop MTV. I find this highly annoying. Anyone else getting this?

I get all the local DT stations (except for WVIZ) with that Philips antenna. That includes VHF stations WKYC and WOIO. All are at 95%+ signal strength with no amplifier or gain being used. That being said, I am 7.5-9.5 miles away whereas you're likely 18-20 miles away from the towers. I'm not sure what effect the added distance, transmission patterns, and terrain will have on the signal..........

WOW! Good guess on distance there ajstan. :D

Hook: Using my sisters address (Bainbridge, Lake In The Woods Tr., zip 44023) Antennaweb shows 20.7 miles.
Your actual location may be even further. :eek:

Like ajstan, I'm about half that distance to the antenna farm and my ch. 3 signal strength is usually in the 75% range with an outdoor antenna. You using a STB/rabbit ears antenna combined with your distance from the tower's would make it much more challenging to get such weak signals.

Hook: Using my sisters address (Bainbridge, Lake In The Woods Tr., zip 44023) Antennaweb shows 20.7 miles.
Your actual location may be even further. :eek:

Like ajstan, I'm about half that distance to the antenna farm and my ch. 3 signal strength is usually in the 75% range with an outdoor antenna.
I'm not sure where Hook is in Bainbridge, but I'm in South Russell which is right next door. I'm in 44022, about a mile from the 44023 address you mention above. Bainbridge is a large place, though, and some parts of it are quite far from here.

My house had no antenna when I arrived, so I put up a medium-sized Radio Shack outdoor antenna (probably #15-2152) with a clear view of the horizon to the west. I get channels 3, 5, and 8 at about 90% signal strength, 43 at about 80%, 19 and 55 at about 75%. And I get not a hint of signal from 25.

WOW! Good guess on distance there ajstan. :D

Hook: Using my sisters address (Bainbridge, Lake In The Woods Tr., zip 44023) Antennaweb shows 20.7 miles.
Your actual location may be even further. :eek:

Like ajstan, I'm about half that distance to the antenna farm and my ch. 3 signal strength is usually in the 75% range with an outdoor antenna. You using a STB/rabbit ears antenna combined with your distance from the tower's would make it much more challenging to get such weak signals.

I'm actually right on the edge of Bainbrdge Twp. Matter of fact a small piece of my property actually goes into Portage County.

I'm surprised they haven't sent me a property tax bill.:)

Bainbridge either uses 44203 and mine is 44202 which is Aurora. I've go some terrain issues as well, There is a huge hill to the South-Southwest and a whole woods full of tree, caverns and hills in between me and Geauga Lake. Nobody on my street has a regular antenna it's either a dish or cable.

I'm not sure where Hook is in Bainbridge, but I'm in South Russell which is right next door. I'm in 44022, about a mile from the 44023 address you mention above. Bainbridge is a large place, though, and some parts of it are quite far from here.

My house had no antenna when I arrived, so I put up a medium-sized Radio Shack outdoor antenna (probably #15-2152) with a clear view of the horizon to the west. I get channels 3, 5, and 8 at about 90% signal strength, 43 at about 80%, 19 and 55 at about 75%. And I get not a hint of signal from 25.

Yep, it's a bit of a drive on Chilicote Road to get to your place for me. And I have to take Brewster and Pedibone to get there.

When you all turn on the 8300HD, which station is being shown? The guide says its 71 COMMTV, but actually it's non-stop MTV. I find this highly annoying. Anyone else getting this?

Now wait just a second! This can't be possible. You mean TW, the company that "Thinks like you do" would do something like this?:rolleyes:

There is something you can do about that. If you have a Harmony remote you can actually set it to turn on to any station you want it to. Of course that would mean spending some money if you don't have it but some of them are not too expensive, ebay probably would be helpfull there.

Then there is this other thing called the HD TiVo or TiVo S3. They stay on whatever channel you left them on or what they last recorded if it used both tuners. If it just uses one or no tuner it will come on the last channel that you were watching live. Not to mention all the hundreds of things else it can do.

Now before you guys get started I'm not trying to put down the SA 8300. I'm just mentioning alternatives.;)

Seriously? It's called a remote control. You push buttons and the channel changes. ;)

No need to waste money on equipment that will become obselete soon. :D

Yeah, Navigator stays on my last channel too.

And what's wrong with MTV? I make that statement as I'm looking to see if there's another Rob & Big marathon on. Nope. :mad: Some show "Engaged and Underage". Great!! More news about that Texas polygamist colony:D:D:D:D

I'm not sure where Hook is in Bainbridge, but I'm in South Russell which is right next door. I'm in 44022, about a mile from the 44023 address you mention above. Bainbridge is a large place, though, and some parts of it are quite far from here.

My house had no antenna when I arrived, so I put up a medium-sized Radio Shack outdoor antenna (probably #15-2152) with a clear view of the horizon to the west. I get channels 3, 5, and 8 at about 90% signal strength, 43 at about 80%, 19 and 55 at about 75%. And I get not a hint of signal from 25.

Yup, and this is where the antenna type/size/location will make a big difference. My outdoor antenna would certainly be on the small size (22" dish shaped). I grew in Russell Twp. so I know the hurdles necessary to get decent OTA reception out there! :eek: I doubt my current small'ish antenna would pick up very much out that way.

WVIZ-DT (25-1) is listed as around 4.5 miles from me, and no hint of it on my tv's either. Unless you are around 1 mile or less from the WVIZ-DT transmitter you probably won't get a signal. Analog WVIZ (25) comes in fine here.

Seriously? It's called a remote control. You push buttons and the channel changes. ;)

No need to waste money on equipment that will become obselete soon. :D

Yeah, Navigator stays on my last channel too.

And what's wrong with MTV? I make that statement as I'm looking to see if there's another Rob & Big marathon on. Nope. :mad: Some show "Engaged and Underage". Great!! More news about that Texas polygamist colony:D:D:D:D

nickdawg the harmony will never become obsolete.

And TiVo will not either. First they already have a box that the cable company is working on with TiVo so it will work with SDV, and second even if they didn't the channels I watch will not be on SDV.

What's wrong with MTV? What's right with it? You must be much younger then me if you can enjoy that channel. I liked it back in the days when it did what it was suppose to do which was show videos. But now I don't listen to a whole lot of new music anyway and even if they did have videos I probably wouldn't watch it.

I'll let you make a counter remark because it's only fair since I kind of started again but to keep peace in the family I won't respond. So now is your chance to really get me if you want.;):D

Yup, and this is where the antenna type/size/location will make a big difference. My outdoor antenna would certainly be on the small size (22" dish shaped). I grew in Russell Twp. so I know the hurdles necessary to get decent OTA reception out there! :eek: I doubt my current small'ish antenna would pick up very much out that way.

WVIZ-DT (25-1) is listed as around 4.5 miles from me, and no hint of it on my tv's either. Unless you are around 1 mile or less from the WVIZ-DT transmitter you probably won't get a signal. Analog WVIZ (25) comes in fine here.
Yeah, I know that. I just included them in the list for completeness.

As for the antenna, mine is nothing special, but it is designed for all bands. It's a typical suburban outdoor TV antenna, no different than the ones that we've used in the suburbs for 30-40 years. It's the height that makes it effective here - I've got it at the very peak of my house, and there is just nothing blocking its view to the west.

Hook, have you tried getting up on your roof to see how far you can see? You must be down on Riverside Drive? Some of those houses should be tall enough for an antenna to work. And you need to aim slightly north of west, so a hill to the southwest shouldn't bother you. Just because none of your neighbors has an antenna doesn't mean that yours won't work.

I'm in a hilly and heavily wooded area, and my lot is lower than many around me. But the house is tall, and the peak gets up high enough to serve my needs.

nickdawg the harmony will never become obsolete.

And TiVo will not either. First they already have a box that the cable company is working on with TiVo so it will work with SDV, and second even if they didn't the channels I watch will not be on SDV.

Eventually most channels will be SDV. The HD national channels along with the digital channels. About the only thing that has to be left in the clear is local broadcast. And they're coming out with a new box. Will it be available free of charge at their local service center? :D ;)


What's wrong with MTV? What's right with it? You must be much younger then me if you can enjoy that channel. I liked it back in the days when it did what it was suppose to do which was show videos. But now I don't listen to a whole lot of new music anyway and even if they did have videos I probably wouldn't watch it.

MTV does pretty much suck now. Rob & Big is about the only show that has actually got my attention in awhile. I do also watch Punkd and Pimp My Ride occasionally. But other than that, just a bunch of crap I don't watch... AND NO MUSIC ON MTV!!!

.........Hook, have you tried getting up on your roof to see how far you can see? You must be down on Riverside Drive? Some of those houses should be tall enough for an antenna to work. And you need to aim slightly north of west, so a hill to the southwest shouldn't bother you. Just because none of your neighbors has an antenna doesn't mean that yours won't work.

I'm in a hilly and heavily wooded area, and my lot is lower than many around me. But the house is tall, and the peak gets up high enough to serve my needs.

I think Hook is trying to stay in the "budget" range, i.e. $20.

If it's truly just for his birds then I would have to agree that a medium to large roof top antenna would not be worth the time, trouble or expense.
Hook and I certainly agree on one thing: rabbit ear antennas are "for the birds". :D

Yeah, I know that. I just included them in the list for completeness.

As for the antenna, mine is nothing special, but it is designed for all bands. It's a typical suburban outdoor TV antenna, no different than the ones that we've used in the suburbs for 30-40 years. It's the height that makes it effective here - I've got it at the very peak of my house, and there is just nothing blocking its view to the west.

Hook, have you tried getting up on your roof to see how far you can see? You must be down on Riverside Drive? Some of those houses should be tall enough for an antenna to work. And you need to aim slightly north of west, so a hill to the southwest shouldn't bother you. Just because none of your neighbors has an antenna doesn't mean that yours won't work.

I'm in a hilly and heavily wooded area, and my lot is lower than many around me. But the house is tall, and the peak gets up high enough to serve my needs.

First let me commend you on getting my location. Actually it's on S. Riverside Drive, but you got the area correct.

And my home is a two story, not a bi level so I guess it's pretty tall specially over the bedrooms. But you got to remember-we're talking about a television for the bird. Now as much as I want him to have a nice television he really doesn't seem to care too much about what's on. Cartoons probably appeal to him and I thought about having a cable terminal ran into this area but I already have enough cable terminals.

And as far as putting anything on the roof my wife is against it. She was willing to go with a dish for direct tv but even then she wanted it on a pole in the back yard. As it turned out we couldn't get a signal no matter where we put the dish.

Now if Tyler was a human child he would be upstairs in a bedroom. Actually that's where I wanted to put him but wife over ruled me and put him in the office along with the love bird (Lovey-who is male) and our parrolette Peggy (because her parents bit her talons off of one leg).

So you guys are giving me information that would apply to a regular situation. This is a bird and if he's stuck with WEWS then that's what he's stuck with.

But thanks for all the info.....oh oh....nickdawg just replied.

Eventually most channels will be SDV. The HD national channels along with the digital channels. About the only thing that has to be left in the clear is local broadcast. And they're coming out with a new box. Will it be available free of charge at their local service center? :D ;)



MTV does pretty much suck now. Rob & Big is about the only show that has actually got my attention in awhile. I do also watch Punkd and Pimp My Ride occasionally. But other than that, just a bunch of crap I don't watch... AND NO MUSIC ON MTV!!!

That's fine, and I understand about the SDV thing. I knew that when I bought the S3 and I hoped that by the time it got to us there would be a solution. So far it looks like I'm on track with that. But I do record mostly broadcast channels so they will not be on SDV.

Question for you. I don't quite understand the last statement. Are you complaining about no music or are you saying you don't want music?

I think Hook is trying to stay in the "budget" range, i.e. $20.

If it's truly just for his birds then I would have to agree that a medium to large roof top antenna would not be worth the time, trouble or expense.
Hook and I certainly agree on one thing: rabbit ear antennas are "for the birds". :D

That my friend is a very true statement!;)

Question for you. I don't quite understand the last statement. Are you complaining about no music or are you saying you don't want music?

No, I'm pissed there is no music on channels called Music Television and Video Hits 1(VH1). I'd like to see music videos instead of some crappy reality show.

As far as SDV, I don't think the Cleveland Time Warner system will see it anytime soon, conisdering they don't even have all the channels digital yet. Looks like there won't be any conflicts with Tivo/SDV anytime soon. Guess there is a plus to being in a market stuck in the past:D

No, I'm pissed there is no music on channels called Music Television and Video Hits 1(VH1). I'd like to see music videos instead of some crappy reality show.

As far as SDV, I don't think the Cleveland Time Warner system will see it anytime soon, conisdering they don't even have all the channels digital yet. Looks like there won't be any conflicts with Tivo/SDV anytime soon. Guess there is a plus to being in a market stuck in the past:D

You are aware that there is an agreement between cable companies (http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2007-11/the-ncta-tivo-confirm-sdv-dongle-for-2008/)and TiVo to come up with a box that will allow the S3 and TiVo HD to work with SDV. The link I gave calls it a "dongle" but in fact it's going to be a small box. And it should be available soon in areas that have SDV.

And you are correct, I was banking on the fact that with the purchase of Adelphia and Comcast merger it would be a while before we will ever see SDV around here. But as you pointed out earlier it is in the diagnostic screen so while it's probably not going to happen for a while it will eventually.

nickdawg, what no response?;) I found an updated link (http://gizmodo.com/391871/tivo-switched-video-tuning-adapters-appear-at-cablelabs). Look for yourself, it is now developed and ready to go. Interesting article too about how cablelabs and TiVo worked together on this.

Obsolete? I don't think so.

First let me commend you on getting my location. Actually it's on S. Riverside Drive, but you got the area correct.

And my home is a two story, not a bi level so I guess it's pretty tall specially over the bedrooms. But you got to remember-we're talking about a television for the bird.
There's really only one street down there that is in Bainbridge, but has lots that extend into Portage county. And that's yours. :) (And only on the south side of the street, too.)

And if it's truly just for the bird, well frankly I can't believe that we're even discussing it. I sure don't worry about TV for my dog or cats. But I assumed that you were trying to figure out what you could pull in OTA, so I thought I'd give it my best shot.

We occasionally have the bird from my wife's classroom here at home over school breaks. But I don't worry about TV for the bird - I just let the cats entertain it. :D

There's really only one street down there that is in Bainbridge, but has lots that extend into Portage county. And that's yours. :) (And only on the south side of the street, too.)

And if it's truly just for the bird, well frankly I can't believe that we're even discussing it. I sure don't worry about TV for my dog or cats. But I assumed that you were trying to figure out what you could pull in OTA, so I thought I'd give it my best shot.

We occasionally have the bird from my wife's classroom here at home over school breaks. But I don't worry about TV for the bird - I just let the cats entertain it. :D

Jim I didn't want the discussion to go as far as it did. I was just curious about what stations were UHF and VHF. I got the answer really on the first response and Inundated was helpfull in pointing out that WJW will be going to VHF and WKYC will be going to UHF.

As far as letting the cats entertain the birds, you should see the size of some of my birds and a couple of the cats have been bit. They don't want any part of the birds. They do eyeball the smaller ones of course but it's kind of funny if one happens to get out and land on the floor I've got the cats trained well enough that they know a beating may follow so they all run.

When they are outside however, they are well aware that the bird rule is not in effect.

Notice to any potential theiives: I've got an alarm system and it doesn't work off a phone line. And if you try and take either my cockatoo or my macaw you will be going to the hospital. Trust me.

That's not meant for the regulars in here because I know you are all upstanding honest people. I hope. :)

And then there is nickdawg........

As far as letting the cats entertain the birds, you should see the size of some of my birds and a couple of the cats have been bit. They don't want any part of the birds. They do eyeball the smaller ones of course but it's kind of funny if one happens to get out and land on the floor I've got the cats trained well enough that they know a beating may follow so they all run.

When they are outside however, they are well aware that the bird rule is not in effect.
We keep all of our birds outside. I've got feeders all over the place.

Just a minute ago I saw a flash of brown streaking across my backyard. I took a closer look and found a bard owl sitting in the tree right outside my breakfast room window. I like that - it should help to reduce the number of moles making a mess of my lawn.

Of course it may also cut down on the number of finches at the feeder back there. :)

My girlfriend is buying a new TV. She has WOW cable in North Olmsted. It looks like all the TVs she's looking at have a QAM tuner. Is there anything she needs to discuss with the cable company in advance to take advantage of the QAM tuner? Anyone know what's in the clear on WOW?

Also, how would she connect the cable for the tuner? Sorry for the simple questions, but I haven't dealt with QAM before.

Thanks!

My girlfriend is buying a new TV. She has WOW cable in North Olmsted. It looks like all the TVs she's looking at have a QAM tuner. Is there anything she needs to discuss with the cable company in advance to take advantage of the QAM tuner? Anyone know what's in the clear on WOW?

Also, how would she connect the cable for the tuner? Sorry for the simple questions, but I haven't dealt with QAM before.

Thanks!
Contrary to most other issues, WOW customer service has not been very knowledgeable and/or helpful regarding QAM. You could try to call, but wouldn't expect much help.

Just connect the cable directly to the TV like you would for regular cable, scan for channels and you get what you get. Results may vary between TVs for stations you will be able to receive as well as if the channel numbers shown correspond with the 3-digit channel numbers published by WOW or they are in 000-000 format with the last 3 digits being the WOW channel number.

I get the following "useful" stations:

110 Weather Now
130 Weather Plus
200 WEWS - ABC
201 WOIO - CBS
202 WJW - Fox
203 WKYC - NBC
204 WUAB - My43 (shows as 103-204 on one of two QAM TVs)
500-546? Music Choice (only comes in on one of two QAM TVs)

I also get the following "useless" stations:
103-140 Tube TV - "no longer in service" message 24/7
399 PPV Barker

Hope this helps.

Helps 100%. Thanks!!!

My girlfriend is buying a new TV. She has WOW cable in North Olmsted. It looks like all the TVs she's looking at have a QAM tuner. Is there anything she needs to discuss with the cable company in advance to take advantage of the QAM tuner? Anyone know what's in the clear on WOW?

Also, how would she connect the cable for the tuner? Sorry for the simple questions, but I haven't dealt with QAM before.

Thanks!

Connection should be the simple RF/coax (RG6/RG59) cable feed.
I use WOW in Strongsville so I'd guess my lineup is the same as N.O.

My WOW Clear QAM:
200 ABC HD (5)
201 CBS HD (19)
202 FOX HD (8)
203 NBC HD (3)
204 UAB HD (43)

110 WTHRN (ch 43 weather sub-channel)
130 Weather Plus (ch 3 or ch 19 weather sub-channel)

501 through 537 = Digital Music Channels

And that's about it, last time I checked.
Note: No WBNX HD (55) nor WVIZ HD (25)

There are usually a couple of home shopping ch's & PPV's also, should she care. :)

EDIT: ooops, I see ajstan beat me to it. :) He plays with WOW Clear QAM much more than I, so I'd stick with his lineup. :)

I attached the output coax on the Scientific Atlanta 8300 HD DVR to my VCR and get a garbled single. One channel had a clear picture and no sound. Anyone know why this is happening? Is there a setup for the coax output?

Thanks

PS... Time Warner showed up when they said they would to install this thing, however, they did have the order wrong as to what I was supposed to get vs. what I asked to get.

I attached the output coax on the Scientific Atlanta 8300 HD DVR to my VCR and get a garbled single. One channel had a clear picture and no sound. Anyone know why this is happening? Is there a setup for the coax output?



Don't know why it happens but that happened to me. And sometimes when I was loading something on to a DVD it would show the picture of the recording but play the sound of whatever the tuner was on.

Actually I do know the reason it happens but if I told you certain people would get upset with me.;) But do the letters POS mean anything to you?

Is anyone receiving WBNX-HD via QAM on TW in the North Canton area.
TIA

No. I've been scanning and re-scanning for weeks now with my QAM tuner and haven't found it. This is particularly bad form for TWC as they recently removed Fox News, TBS and Versus from their QAM line-up. The least they could do is give us WBNX-HD in return which I believe they cannot legally scramble anyway.

No. I've been scanning and re-scanning for weeks now with my QAM tuner and haven't found it. This is particularly bad form for TWC as they recently removed Fox News, TBS and Versus from their QAM line-up. The least they could do is give us WBNX-HD in return which I believe they cannot legally scramble anyway.

Right, exactly. I don't know why they are not giving us WBNX. Yes, they did take away those other channels too, then 2 days ago, they also took away Sprout. My 2 sons love that channel, and I know that it was kind-of a "bonus" if you will, but that is complete BS to have that channel on for 2 months and then just take it away :rolleyes:. I mean it's PBS channel for kids for pete sake.

I wonder if this would warrant an e-mail to Steve Fry. I don't think any other way would get any real response. In fact, I told my brother that if you called TW, that they probably wouldn't even know what QAM was because their CSRs are so stupid. He called to prove me wrong and the CSR said...
"QAM. I've heard of that. Doesn't it have something to do with Pay-per-view?" :eek::confused::eek:

Right, exactly. I don't know why they are not giving us WBNX. Yes, they did take away those other channels too, then 2 days ago, they also took away Sprout. My 2 sons love that channel, and I know that it was kind-of a "bonus" if you will, but that is complete BS to have that channel on for 2 months and then just take it away :rolleyes:. I mean it's PBS channel for kids for pete sake.

I wonder if this would warrant an e-mail to Steve Fry. I don't think any other way would get any real response. In fact, I told my brother that if you called TW, that they probably wouldn't even know what QAM was because their CSRs are so stupid. He called to prove me wrong and the CSR said...
"QAM. I've heard of that. Doesn't it have something to do with Pay-per-view?" :eek::confused::eek:

Listen young man. You will get you're HD line up when TW get's darn good and ready to give it to you.

And quit confusing those poor CSR's with questions words like QAM or "fair" or asking for dates when installs will be done.;)

:D

Feb. of '09 I suppose :rolleyes:

:D

Just a slight correction for future reference on this thread:


110 WTHRN (ch 43 weather sub-channel)
130 Weather Plus (ch 3 or ch 19 weather sub-channel)


"WTHRN" is presumably WOIO's weather subchannel, "WeatherNow". It shows up on WOIO-DT 19.2.

"Weather Plus" is "NBC Weather Plus", and it's WKYC's (3.2 on WKYC-DT).

43 only has the useless "We no longer have the Tube, it's not our fault" slide on WUAB-DT 43.2.

Just a slight correction for future reference on this thread:



"WTHRN" is presumably WOIO's weather subchannel, "WeatherNow". It shows up on WOIO-DT 19.2.

"Weather Plus" is "NBC Weather Plus", and it's WKYC's (3.2 on WKYC-DT).

43 only has the useless "We no longer have the Tube, it's not our fault" slide on WUAB-DT 43.2.

Can you tell I use QAM infrequently??? :)

And I never have need of the completely unnecessary weather sub-channel crap.

Thanks for the clarification. ;)

Don't know why it happens but that happened to me. And sometimes when I was loading something on to a DVD it would show the picture of the recording but play the sound of whatever the tuner was on.

Actually I do know the reason it happens but if I told you certain people would get upset with me.;) But do the letters POS mean anything to you?

Is is a very agricultural looking unit...I have to agree with you there. The good news is I can use it to heat my entire house next winter. The cable guy put my Wii on top of it..I nearly required oven mits to take it off. In fact I removed the shelf above it to allow for better cooling of the unit and heating of the house. Do you think the box has an effect of the color on the set? I think the colors were a lot truer before I hooked up the box.

Is is a very agricultural looking unit...I have to agree with you there. The good news is I can use it to heat my entire house next winter. The cable guy put my Wii on top of it..I nearly required oven mits to take it off. In fact I removed the shelf above it to allow for better cooling of the unit and heating of the house. Do you think the box has an effect of the color on the set? I think the colors were a lot truer before I hooked up the box.

Now that I have to admit I've never heard of. As far as I can remember the box was never too hot.

Overall as far as pq goes, the SA 8300 wasn't bad outside of the constant framentation and macroblocking that occurred usually on recordings. If I was watching somethng "live" I think it was ok.

Now I don't want to get into a TiVo vs SA 8300 thing but the pq on SD channels are much better on the TiVo but then again to be fair to the SA 8300 there were no quality settings for SD channels. And I had SARA software which most people think was the worst. I can't give you a true opinion on SA 8300 any longer since they have upgraded software and I don't know what type of television you are using. Assuming since this is an HD thread I don't believe it would cause a color problem on your HD channels but it may very well affect SD channels.

Are you using Navigator, Passport, or SARA software?

And if it's truly as hot as you say have them come out and give you another.

Edit: On second thought you can always return it yourself at a local TW office for another unit.

I attached the output coax on the Scientific Atlanta 8300 HD DVR to my VCR and get a garbled single. One channel had a clear picture and no sound. Anyone know why this is happening? Is there a setup for the coax output?

Thanks


Sounds like something is wrong with that box. I tried the coax out and it worked OK, there wasn't any setting to change. If you need the coax, replace the box. If your VCR has composite video inputs, use those. The SA 8300 has two sets of outputs.

Actually I do know the reason it happens but if I told you certain people would get upset with me.;) But do the letters POS mean anything to you?

I just confirmed that POS is not the answer ;)

Is is a very agricultural looking unit...I have to agree with you there. The good news is I can use it to heat my entire house next winter. The cable guy put my Wii on top of it..I nearly required oven mits to take it off. In fact I removed the shelf above it to allow for better cooling of the unit and heating of the house. Do you think the box has an effect of the color on the set? I think the colors were a lot truer before I hooked up the box.

There's something wrong with that box. It isn't supposed to be that hot. I'd definately return iit if it's overheating.

Also, when you get a new one, don't put anything on top of it. You're not supposed to block the ventilation holes.

Sounds like something is wrong with that box. I tried the coax out and it worked OK, there wasn't any setting to change. If you need the coax, replace the box. If your VCR has composite video inputs, use those. The SA 8300 has two sets of outputs.

I just confirmed that POS is not the answer ;)

No, you just gave your opinion. However despite what output he's using if it's as hot as what he says it is he should get another. I don't recall it being hot like that.

I used composite to my DVR. One of the things I thought was cool about the SA 8300 was the fact that you could copy something and watch something else because of the pip feature. Then I started having the no sound or current sound I was watching. So to be on the safe side I would record and just leave it on pip to make sure the sound would work.

And that is not really a knock on the SA 8300 nickdawg because TiVo doesn't let you watch anything when it does a transfer from the box to a DVD/VCR. Now doing a recording to a PC or another TiVo, that doesn't interfere with anything.

We keep all of our birds outside. I've got feeders all over the place.

Just a minute ago I saw a flash of brown streaking across my backyard. I took a closer look and found a bard owl sitting in the tree right outside my breakfast room window. I like that - it should help to reduce the number of moles making a mess of my lawn.

Of course it may also cut down on the number of finches at the feeder back there. :)

Can't let this go. That would be a BARRED owl. The one if not only N. American owl with brown eyes. Yea, I get into this stuff, sorry. Also, Hookbill, I'm well aware of exotic bird species capability to do damage to your body as well. Had a digit of mine easily ripped to the bone by a wild-caught African Grey a few years back. My wife's favorite pet. Arghhhhhh!!!
OK....back to the legitimate offerings on this forum.........

Can't let this go. That would be a BARRED owl. The one if not only N. American owl with brown eyes. Yea, I get into this stuff, sorry. Also, Hookbill, I'm well aware of exotic bird species capability to do damage to your body as well. Had a digit of mine easily ripped to the bone by a wild-caught African Grey a few years back. My wife's favorite pet. Arghhhhhh!!!
OK....back to the legitimate offerings on this forum.........


Not quite yet. Birds are off topic, hd/digital television reception isn't. So yes, when I get into this thing with the birds I am off topic but just to let you guys know I'm not totally insane by giving my cockatoo a digital television converter please read this link my wife sent me yesterday.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/05/21/lost.parrot.ap/index.html

Now granted African Greys are the most intelligent of all parrots (some say they have the intelligence of a 6 year old child) and the two I have are in the living room with us with HD television. They love the Dragon guy on Saturdays. Everybody shuts up when he comes on.

Burgher I know that Greys can bite hard and they are a small bird. Either my cocatoo or macaw however can take your finger off.:eek:

Can't let this go. That would be a BARRED owl.Yup. Thanks for the correction.

Guess I should turn on the TV in the family room in hopes that he'll stick around to enjoy it.

I was unavailable on Tuesday night, so I sat down Wednesday to watch American Idol off my Motorola DVR on Armstrong Cable. About 20 minutes in, the DVR jumped to about the 40 minute mark. About 30 seconds later, it jumped to the 54 minute mark. I went back and tried it again, and the same thing happened in the same spot. I unplugged the DVR and rebooted, and it did the same thing in the same spot again.

Wednesday's recording (which I started watching while it was still recording) jumped once about 45 minutes ahead about 20 minutes into the show.

Funny thing is, I have another Motorola box upstairs (same model), and it did the exact same thing at the same spots in both shows that were separately recorded on that box.

Did anyone notice any glitches or other problems on Fox 8 HD this week during AI? Anyone else with Armstrong have any problems?

I'm thinking it had to be something with Armstrong, as both boxes had the same problem in the same spot.

Thanks.

I was unavailable on Tuesday night, so I sat down Wednesday to watch American Idol off my Motorola DVR on Armstrong Cable. About 20 minutes in, the DVR jumped to about the 40 minute mark. About 30 seconds later, it jumped to the 54 minute mark. I went back and tried it again, and the same thing happened in the same spot. I unplugged the DVR and rebooted, and it did the same thing in the same spot again.

Wednesday's recording (which I started watching while it was still recording) jumped once about 45 minutes ahead about 20 minutes into the show.

Funny thing is, I have another Motorola box upstairs (same model), and it did the exact same thing at the same spots in both shows that were separately recorded on that box.

Did anyone notice any glitches or other problems on Fox 8 HD this week during AI? Anyone else with Armstrong have any problems?

I'm thinking it had to be something with Armstrong, as both boxes had the same problem in the same spot.

Thanks.

I think that's an MPEG discontinuity. I've seen this before, usually during local commercial breaks. It's probably a misbehaving ad splicer.

I think that's an MPEG discontinuity. I've seen this before, usually during local commercial breaks. It's probably a misbehaving ad splicer.

That happened once before with FOX, shortly after an update on the SA 8300 with then Adelphia. It took a few days to fix it but it wasn't just one show. Adelphia hit the panic button and pulled the update but it was not the problem.

I don't think they got that update for at least 6 months after that.

I don't have an 8300, and it's never done it before. None of the skips happened during a commercial break; they were all right in the middle of performances. I guess I'll see if it happens again on anything else. I've kind of been itching to check out the Pace boxes...

It's a good thing, though, that I'm not an AI Nazi, as I could have been upset at missing both last episodes.

I saw Navigator, for the first time, briefly at a local restaurant...when they were changing the channel to an Indians game on STO.

Yuck! It looks even more amateur-ish than SARA, sort of like going from Playskool to Fisher-Price in visual appearance.

I'll have limited SD experience with it here in the bedroom, as the TiVo is my primary interface. I'm just hoping it doesn't screw up the SA8000HD in the loft...

I don't have an 8300, and it's never done it before. None of the skips happened during a commercial break; they were all right in the middle of performances. I guess I'll see if it happens again on anything else. I've kind of been itching to check out the Pace boxes...

It's a good thing, though, that I'm not an AI Nazi, as I could have been upset at missing both last episodes.

I realized you didin't have the SA 8300. I was just pointing out that this is possible and agreeing with Cathode Kid.

Maybe it was just an Armstrong thing. Stuff happens.;)

I saw Navigator, for the first time, briefly at a local restaurant...when they were changing the channel to an Indians game on STO.

Yuck! It looks even more amateur-ish than SARA, sort of like going from Playskool to Fisher-Price in visual appearance.

I'll have limited SD experience with it here in the bedroom, as the TiVo is my primary interface. I'm just hoping it doesn't screw up the SA8000HD in the loft...

You know when I had the SA 8000 I can't say I ever had any problems with it other then the fact that I was use to TiVo and the whole interface seemed like it was so inferior to TiVo. But I can honestly say I think that it did what I asked it to. The only reason I switched was I wanted the HDMI connection.

Still it's always nice to hear all these glowing reviews of Navigator. I thought a while back you said you were going to get a TiVo HD? Are you just holding out until they try to shove the navigator software on you? Maybe it won't work on the SA 8000. That will mean you will get a "Dear Mr. Inundated, are records show that you need to have your DVR upgraded. We will be contacting you soon about having someone come out to switch you to our new improved SA 8300 HDC!"

At that point it will be time to buy.;)

Maybe it was just an Armstrong thing. Stuff happens.;)

Talking with a neighbor tonight, I guess Armstrong had some issues with the digital stations cutting in and out on Tuesday and Wednesday. That could explain it. Hopefully it was a limited thing, as this is seriously the first time I've ever had anything close to resembling a problem with Armstrong.

Talking with a neighbor tonight, I guess Armstrong had some issues with the digital stations cutting in and out on Tuesday and Wednesday. That could explain it. Hopefully it was a limited thing, as this is seriously the first time I've ever had anything close to resembling a problem with Armstrong.

Makes me want to try an experiment... Start a recording of some digital channel on both my TiVo and SA8300HD - let them run for a few minutes, pull the coax feed for a bit, re-connect the feed and let the recording continue, then watch the final recordings. Could provide some interesting insight into how these two platforms handle digital signal loss.

Makes me want to try an experiment... Start a recording of some digital channel on both my TiVo and SA8300HD - let them run for a few minutes, pull the coax feed for a bit, re-connect the feed and let the recording continue, then watch the final recordings. Could provide some interesting insight into how these two platforms handle digital signal loss.

I would suspect that they will act the same way. You would have two seperate recordings. I know I've had times on both machines when I've had to reboot during a recording and that is what happens.

What would be interesting however is to go to the "To Do List" and click on the top link to see if there is an explanation to the partial recordings on the TiVo.

Hookbill has mentioned this in the past; but for those of you with Tivo 3 and concern for SDV, here's a good article:
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/podcast/2008/05/hdtv_and_home_theater_podcast_278_-_motorola_tuning_adapter_and_more_mobile_digital_media.php

Still it's always nice to hear all these glowing reviews of Navigator. I thought a while back you said you were going to get a TiVo HD? Are you just holding out until they try to shove the navigator software on you?

Maybe. There have been times I've thought of just sending it back entirely, and just use QAM and/or an antenna for HD. I hardly ever use the DVR part of the SA8000 anyway. Nearly everything I record and watch comes off the S2 TiVo in the bedroom.

If I had to pay $200 up front, and decide between the SA8000 and the TiVo HD, it's a no brainer. But unless they force me to pay $200 up front for an SA8300, I can just keep the status quo and not worry about it...or dump it entirely and save the $15ish a month they charge for the DVR and the HD Tier.

Maybe. Nearly everything I record and watch comes off the S2 TiVo in the bedroom.

If I had to pay $200 up front, and decide between the SA8000 and the TiVo HD, it's a no brainer. But unless they force me to pay $200 up front for an SA8300, I can just keep the status quo and not worry about it...or dump it entirely and save the $15ish a month they charge for the DVR and the HD Tier.

S2 doesn't record HD, SA8000 does. If you watch television live most of the time downstairs I understand. Your HDTV is connected to the SA 8000 right?

S2 doesn't record HD, SA8000 does. If you watch television live most of the time downstairs I understand. Your HDTV is connected to the SA 8000 right?

You're missing my point. In the above scenario, I'd willingly give up the HD recording by getting rid of the SA8000, and then watch recorded shows in SD on the S2 in the bedroom.

If I really, really needed to record something in HD, I'd use my USB HDTV on the computer, though I'd lose the ability to both watch and record the non-OTA broadcasters in HD.

You're missing my point. In the above scenario, I'd willingly give up the HD recording by getting rid of the SA8000, and then watch recorded shows in SD on the S2 in the bedroom.

If I really, really needed to record something in HD, I'd use my USB HDTV on the computer, though I'd lose the ability to both watch and record the non-OTA broadcasters in HD.

But wouldn't you be able to receive local HD channels on your USB HDTV? I assume (yes I know:)) that it's hooked up to the cable from the wall and you get programs via a built in qam.

Lots of audio *pops* and *clicks* during broadcast. Does not seem to happen during commercials. Anyone else?

Watching via D*, I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary. I left it on for about 5 or 6 minutes.

Lots of audio *pops* and *clicks* during broadcast. Does not seem to happen during commercials. Anyone else?

Watching via D*, I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary. I left it on for about 5 or 6 minutes.

Thanks. :) It's probably just the geniuses at WEWS for OTA.

I know there isn't very many of you in the area that have a TiVo S3 and a TiVo HD. I may be the only one on this thread, but if anybody else does do you see a 5 second delay between your S3 and TiVo HD?

I'm thinking this delay probably is because the cable is upstairs for the TiVo HD and the TiVo S3 is downstairs closer to the basement.

JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!

Seriously I do have this delay and I am wondering if anyone else sees it. My real guess is that I have a HDMI to DVI hook up on my TiVo HD where my TiVo S3 is straight HDMI.

Or it could be that my S3 cost at this time about 300.00 more then the TiVo HD.

I'm also going to post this on the AVS TiVo thread but since it is a "local" game I thought I would post here. I have notice a very slight delay or no delay on other programs when I've had them on both sets at the same time.

I know there isn't very many of you in the area that have a TiVo S3 and a TiVo HD. I may be the only one on this thread, but if anybody else does do you see a 5 second delay between your S3 and TiVo HD?

I'm thinking this delay probably is because the cable is upstairs for the TiVo HD and the TiVo S3 is downstairs closer to the basement.

JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!

Seriously I do have this delay and I am wondering if anyone else sees it. My real guess is that I have a HDMI to DVI hook up on my TiVo HD where my TiVo S3 is straight HDMI.

Or it could be that my S3 cost at this time about 300.00 more then the TiVo HD.

I'm also going to post this on the AVS TiVo thread but since it is a "local" game I thought I would post here. I have notice a very slight delay or no delay on other programs when I've had them on both sets at the same time.

Is one unit tuned to the SD version of a channel while the other is tuned to the HD equivalent, or do you notice the delay while both are watching the same channel?

The HDMI interface uses the same signal protocol as DVI with the exception of audio, so I don't think the difference is due to that.

It's possible that one of the units simply has a faster CPU than the other one.

But wouldn't you be able to receive local HD channels on your USB HDTV? I assume (yes I know:)) that it's hooked up to the cable from the wall and you get programs via a built in qam.

The USB HD tuner is by its nature portable, and is usually with the laptop for other reasons. The computer downstairs is nowhere near my HD set, and the laptop isn't always there.

I'm thinking two scenarios here: Upstairs with the cable directly into the LCD HD set, which has a QAM tuner built-in, and downstairs, bring out the USB HDTV unit and record either OTA or cable QAM, if needed. Upstairs would just be live, and I could put in the laptop (with a VGA cable) if I wanted to watch in full screen HDTV off of something I recorded earlier.

This may not make sense to you, but it's what I'm dealing with.

Is one unit tuned to the SD version of a channel while the other is tuned to the HD equivalent, or do you notice the delay while both are watching the same channel?

The HDMI interface uses the same signal protocol as DVI with the exception of audio, so I don't think the difference is due to that.

It's possible that one of the units simply has a faster CPU than the other one.

No they were both on HD. What made it strange was that there was such a big difference.

Sometimes it's kind of hard to tell if there is any difference but this was noticeable, just kind of like you said, you would have thought one was on SD and the other HD.

The USB HD tuner is by its nature portable, and is usually with the laptop for other reasons. The computer downstairs is nowhere near my HD set, and the laptop isn't always there.

I'm thinking two scenarios here: Upstairs with the cable directly into the LCD HD set, which has a QAM tuner built-in, and downstairs, bring out the USB HDTV unit and record either OTA or cable QAM, if needed. Upstairs would just be live, and I could put in the laptop (with a VGA cable) if I wanted to watch in full screen HDTV off of something I recorded earlier.

This may not make sense to you, but it's what I'm dealing with.

No, I understand. Sounds like a plan to me.

Hey all. Thought you might find all this interesting:

Massillon Cable Story (http://www.cantonrep.com/index.php?ID=411660&Category=9&fromSearch=yes&subCategoryID=0)

It's about how Massillon Cable is taking the plunge to eliminate their analog channel bandwidth hogs. Some people have all the luck.

I know there isn't very many of you in the area that have a TiVo S3 and a TiVo HD. I may be the only one on this thread, but if anybody else does do you see a 5 second delay between your S3 and TiVo HD?

I'm thinking this delay probably is because the cable is upstairs for the TiVo HD and the TiVo S3 is downstairs closer to the basement.

JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!

For a split second there, I thought "this guy has street cred???" :)


Seriously I do have this delay and I am wondering if anyone else sees it. My real guess is that I have a HDMI to DVI hook up on my TiVo HD where my TiVo S3 is straight HDMI.

Or it could be that my S3 cost at this time about 300.00 more then the TiVo HD.

I'm also going to post this on the AVS TiVo thread but since it is a "local" game I thought I would post here. I have notice a very slight delay or no delay on other programs when I've had them on both sets at the same time.

I've seen this effect on all sorts of digital receivers - TiVo, SA8300, pcHDTV cards, XM and Sirius tuners, etc. I'm sure a chunk of it has to do with when the signal is tuned in and the floating compression rate at that time. When the compression rate is high (such as on a mostly black screen), the decoder can lock in faster than if the signal is tuned in when a lot of fast action is going on. Add in other variables, such as bus contention or hard drive activity, and the delay gets amplified.

For a while, I had two (absolutely) identical MythTV boxes sitting here with pcHDTV cards. If you tuned them both to the same channel, one was usually slightly delayed compared the other, but you were never sure which one would be "first".

Hey all. Thought you might find all this interesting:

Massillon Cable Story (http://www.cantonrep.com/index.php?ID=411660&Category=9&fromSearch=yes&subCategoryID=0)

It's about how Massillon Cable is taking the plunge to eliminate their analog channel bandwidth hogs. Some people have all the luck.

It will be interesting to see if they can pull this off by Feb 17. I've been toying with ordering service from Massillon Cable for my business down there (the antenna on the roof just doesn't cut it.) Time to make some phone calls.

What "business" would that be?... if you don't miond me asking... and if you don't mind posting it here. :)

What "business" would that be?... if you don't miond me asking... and if you don't mind posting it here. :)

Probably none of yours.:D

Sorry, but you of all people should have known better.;)

Probably none of yours.:D

Sorry, but you of all people should have known better.;)

:eek:You cut me deep Hook... real deep man.:p

:eek:You cut me deep Hook... real deep man.:p

When you leave yourself wide open like that and your handle is Smarty-pants.....It's just something I couldn't pass up.:p

...........Seriously I do have this delay and I am wondering if anyone else sees it. My real guess is that I have a HDMI to DVI hook up on my TiVo HD where my TiVo S3 is straight HDMI.....

You should have more time on your hands to track down this delay now that American Idol is over. ;)

You should have more time on your hands to track down this delay now that American Idol is over. ;)

Now I know there is a joke in there somewhere, at least I hope so.

I'm sure I've expressed my feelings about that show once or twice around here.:) But I have to admit that I was happy to see a Rock person win it for a change.

Since Fox 8 News in the morning is primarily American Idol review there wasn't too much I didn't know about the show without watching it. I even sent them a "FOX UNPLUGGED" message which they read on the air. I said something like "I'm glad Cook won. Now please cancel the show."

Wayne Dawson said "Ouch, that was harsh.":)

Hook is just mad because when he tried out, Simon told him that he'd rather listen to a howling dog scratch his way out of a chalkboard box than listen to him. :D

Damn, I whis I coulda seen hook's message read on TV. But I don't watch FOX news. Especially now that Sissy is on. :eek: I'd take the howling dog in the chalkboard box over her talking about her kids. What is she, Kathie Lee? Talking about her kid, I swear his name is Rice or something. She has two, Rice and Beans! :D:D:D:D:D

What "business" would that be?... if you don't miond me asking... and if you don't mind posting it here. :)

Probably none of yours.:D

Hehe... Web design/hosting, dialup ISP (there still is a market for that), computer repair, and more. The "more" part is pretty open-ended - we've done phone systems, bowling alley score-keeping systems, designed custom point-of-sale software, and completely rebuilt one of those claw-type skill cranes down to designing a new brain for it. (That was an interesting project.)

Damn, I whis I coulda seen hook's message read on TV. But I don't watch FOX news. Especially now that Sissy is on. :eek: I'd take the howling dog in the chalkboard box over her talking about her kids. What is she, Kathie Lee? Talking about her kid, I swear his name is Rice or something. She has two, Rice and Beans! :D:D:D:D:D

I would say that I've probably had at least 6 of my emails read, maybe more. The clue is my location. If he says Bainbridge, it's probably me.

Sissy = Tracy or Stacy? I assume it's Tracy. I thought when they rehired Stacy that it would be a matter of time before Tracy left but no such luck (yet).

And not that I have any room to talk but Tracy is having a bit of a problem dropping that weight. Stacy hs to be at least 10 years older and has better looking legs.

The only reason I watch FOX 8 is it's a local "news" show and WEWS and WKYC has gone to their network shows a 8:00 am. And I think you all know why we don't watch WOIO. Not only do you have Action News but don't you get Connie Chung as well later?:eek:

About 1 or 2 months ago they had a story about how the worst duet ever made was Paul McCartney and Stevie Wonder doing, "Ebony and Ivory," so that was the topic that morning.

I responded with (to the best of my memory) "Ebony and Ivory was a great song, however Paul McCartney was involved in the worst duet ever made: "Stay, Stay Stay" with Michael Jackson.

Wayne Dawson said, "He's right about that.";) and one of the women said something about the video being strange.

I would say that I've probably had at least 6 of my emails read, maybe more. The clue is my location. If he says Bainbridge, it's probably me.

Sissy = Tracy or Stacy? I assume it's Tracy. I thought when they rehired Stacy that it would be a matter of time before Tracy left but no such luck (yet).

Sissy is Stephanie Shaffer. The obnoxious, bimb, former employerr re-hired last year after her national show went bust. Just like another hemmorrhoid, Robin. C'mon, how many of our jobs would take us back after leaving for bigger, better things and failing at them? :D

I do like Tracy and Wayne. They are good on-air. The other person I couldn't stand is Andre. But now he's in the evening, so FOX is tolerable as long as Shaffer is off.


The only reason I watch FOX 8 is it's a local "news" show and WEWS and WKYC has gone to their network shows a 8:00 am. And I think you all know why we don't watch WOIO. Not only do you have Action News but don't you get Connie Chung as well later?:eek:

I watch the Early Show. I cannot stand Today since Katie left. Meredith is AWFUL plus the animated Today bug complete with scrolling nbc.com text gets on my nerves. For local news I like 5's GMC or 19 Action News(yes, I watch them). 19's Tiffany Tucker and 5's Kimberly Gill are smokin' :D:D

The Asian on CBS is Julie Chen. I really wish they would dump her. I'm sorry but once you host a ridiculous reality show, your credibility as a journalist is gone. Chen also hosts Big Brother. No chance of her going anywhere, since she is Moonves' wife.

......I responded with (to the best of my memory) "Ebony and Ivory was a great song, however Paul McCartney was involved in the worst duet ever made: "Stay, Stay Stay" with Michael Jackson........

No, Paul McCartney's worst "duet" ever was Heather Mills! :D

No, Paul McCartney's worst "duet" ever was Heather Mills! :D

Yep, that was a bad one as well.

Sissy is Stephanie Shaffer.

Yeah, Stephanie. Well she doesn't bother me Tracy does. I liked Andrea. And I like Melissa even better.;)

Stacy is the brunette that subs every once in a while. I like her for whatever reason she floats my boat....but I always prefer brunettes to blondes.

Wayne cracks me up because he sometimes tries to figure out who sings certain songs that he obviously never really grew up with. Face it, he's a rhythym and blues/soul person and he wouldn't recognize Twisted Sister if they were standing right next to him.

And he agreed with me about the McCartney/Jackson duet. That was cool.

Hehe... Web design/hosting, dialup ISP (there still is a market for that), computer repair, and more. The "more" part is pretty open-ended - we've done phone systems, bowling alley score-keeping systems, designed custom point-of-sale software, and completely rebuilt one of those claw-type skill cranes down to designing a new brain for it. (That was an interesting project.)

mknowlin, it sounds like you have a fun job. :cool:

mknowlin, it sounds like you have a fun job. :cool:

It's more of a side project we've been doing for several years - my main job (the one that makes the house payment) is in IT management for a medical company. Someday the two roles may switch places, but it hasn't happened yet... :)

It's more of a side project we've been doing for several years - my main job (the one that makes the house payment) is in IT management for a medical company. Someday the two roles may switch places, but it hasn't happened yet... :)

My wife is an IT manager at a major cosmetics company. Does she spend her time doing something constructive and interesting like what you do? No. She spends all her time in her "second life" desigining buildings and crap that doesn't make money.

I just made a comment about what you did to her. I got a dirty look. Thanks dude, you got me in trouble.:p

So I just spent the last week reading about 10 pages or so from the last month and a half when I didn't check this thread, I'm back now.

Sorry I missed all the banter back and forth about the re-alignments, some of it was amusing. I'll throw in my 2 cents now though. I'm in old adelphia (er, cleveland suburbs 2, I dunno), using only QAM. I picked up a new LCD TV a few weeks ago, and after a rescan, found a few new channels. WBNX-DT, STO-HD (at least when there's a game, haven't check it when there wasn't) and TBS-HD. In addition to the locals in HD, I'm still getting TNT-HD and DSC-HD, so I'm happy about the added bonuses :).

Hell, I think I'm only missing a couple HD channels that you guys with STB's are getting, and I don't care about those channels. :D

An interesting story to some people maybe.

Agreement may mean end of cable set-top boxes
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080528/ap_on_hi_te/cable_boxes;_ylt=Ag3pUeZ1oBIzND2pWLKi14Ws0NUE

Must be nice for you LG. Down here in Canton, they are eliminating the all the QAM bonus channels. I think we are now down to FamilyLand(religous:rolleyes), ARTS, E!, WIVM, and all the locals but NO WBNX. Maybe Uverse is in my future after all.

Must be nice for you LG. Down here in Canton, they are eliminating the all the QAM bonus channels. I think we are now down to FamilyLand(religous:rolleyes), ARTS, E!, WIVM, and all the locals but NO WBNX. Maybe Uverse is in my future after all.

You get E! in HD via QAM? (Not that I want that channel, just a "bonus" I haven't heard of with QAM.)

Nope, SD. NO stations in HD other than the locals.

An interesting story to some people maybe.

Agreement may mean end of cable set-top boxes
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080528/ap_on_hi_te/cable_boxes;_ylt=Ag3pUeZ1oBIzND2pWLKi14Ws0NUE

I know I'm not the brightest bulb in the closet but what exactly did that story say? Here's what I got: Sony agreed to a technology that will deliver two way communications that is better then what the cable companies are using today and will start using it in THEIR televisions.

Well, I'm all in favor of a better way of doing this then the current cable company method but it will still require a cable card and supposedly it will work with TiVo. I wonder if TiVo is aware of this?

Then it ends with the FCC saying "no comment." Also no mention about what CableLabs will have to say.

I think if this really happens it won't happen for quite some time. First Cisco (SA) has been the one who has been designing these boxes for SDV and I have a feeling that they have the binding agreement at this time. Now maybe that expires in a year or two, I don't know but I can't see them just allowing SONY, who has NO experience with cable come marching into their area.

I looked back to see the source of this information and it's AP which I consider a good source but I'll believe it when I see it.

An interesting story to some people maybe.

Agreement may mean end of cable set-top boxes
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080528/ap_on_hi_te/cable_boxes;_ylt=Ag3pUeZ1oBIzND2pWLKi14Ws0NUE

Sounds like alot more bulls*** that's going to make our lives even worse. Cable TV has been fine for the last 20-30 years. Then along comes these "digital cable ready" devices. OK. But the worst thing ever done was the FCC requiring that the equipment cable distributes use the same cable card technology. What we have as a result is buggy settop boxes(can anyone say the 8300HDC?)

And the key word there is "choice". Choice, choice, choice. I HATE that word!!! Too many choices is a bad thing. It's almost like the phone company. Everybody used to have those big old, black phones. I have one in my basement that is probably older than I am and it still works perfectly. I cannot say the same about the newer ones I bought at a Big Box electronic store.

And the same thing is going to happen to TV. Right now my SA8300HD works perfectly. You'd have to pry it out of my cold dead hands. If settop boxes become regular consumer electronics, just wait until those cheap brands you see at Target, Walmart or Best Buy begin making STBs. Like Visio or Insignia, two that come to mind. Just keep everything the way it is now, stop screwing up my TV.

If cable wants a project to keep them busy, work on installing SDV here in Akron! :D ;)
--------------------------------------
What exactly is a better way, hook?: Elaborate for us. I can't think of anything better than how it is now. You subscribe to cable. They install a cable box on your TV. That's the way it's always been and it seems to work.

An interesting story to some people maybe.

Agreement may mean end of cable set-top boxes
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080528/ap_on_hi_te/cable_boxes;_ylt=Ag3pUeZ1oBIzND2pWLKi14Ws0NUE

The gist of this is what the CE manufacturers have been promising to do for awhile: put an upstream modulator in their sets. Samsung was the first manufacturer to claim a two-way capable set, and supposedly it was shown in a lab somewhere last year, but I never actually saw one in the field. It looks like the other manufacturers are starting to catch up (and maybe pass up) Samsung.

Sounds like alot more bulls*** that's going to make our lives even worse. Cable TV has been fine for the last 20-30 years. Then along comes these "digital cable ready" devices. OK. But the worst thing ever done was the FCC requiring that the equipment cable distributes use the same cable card technology. What we have as a result is buggy settop boxes(can anyone say the 8300HDC?)

Brought to you by those fine folks at Cisco (Scientific Atlanta).:)

And the key word there is "choice". Choice, choice, choice. I HATE that word!!! Too many choices is a bad thing. It's almost like the phone company. Everybody used to have those big old, black phones. I have one in my basement that is probably older than I am and it still works perfectly. I cannot say the same about the newer ones I bought at a Big Box electronic store.

Yes, choice is bad. Creates competition, improved quality. By all means lets avoid that!:rolleyes:

And the same thing is going to happen to TV. Right now my SA8300HD works perfectly. You'd have to pry it out of my cold dead hands. If settop boxes become regular consumer electronics, just wait until those cheap brands you see at Target, Walmart or Best Buy begin making STBs. Like Visio or Insignia, two that come to mind. Just keep everything the way it is now, stop screwing up my TV.

Funny. I never had an SA 8300 that worked worth a damn. I think I would put it in the same catagory of Insignia or Visio. For further information, read my signature.:D


If cable wants a project to keep them busy, work on installing SDV here in Akron! :D ;)

Well if it works so darn well why would 4 major cable companies be looking for an alternative?
--------------------------------------
What exactly is a better way, hook?: Elaborate for us. I can't think of anything better than how it is now. You subscribe to cable. They install a cable box on your TV. That's the way it's always been and it seems to work.

nickdawg, SA/Cisco are blowing it out their respected butts with their machines. Face it, the SA 83000 HDC is a pos and everybody knows it. Poorly designed from the beginning and now trying to take a hunk of garbage and throw new software in it that it wasn't desingned for creates that age old problem: garbage in, garbage out.

The problem is that with so many cable companies working with different equipment even though the name is the same you are going to have issues trying to design a box that will work with cable cards everywhere. This goes for TiVo as well. Motorola boxes and the M cards seem to give Comcrap customers fits but work well in SA boxes on TW. I personally would welcome a change in technology where "one size fits all" but I don't see where Sony is going to be the one who delivers it. Perhaps Cathode Kid understands it. This upstream modulator he's talking about.

You know as well as I do that Navigator software is crap. I think the cable companies are aware of that too and now want to come up with an alternative solution. I don't think it means the end of SDV, just a different way of doing it.

I can see the headlines now, in the Akron Beacon Journal:

MAN KILLED BY POLICE FOR REFUSING TO GIVE UP CABLE BOX:

AKRON:

It was there on the internet. nickdawg said the only way he would give up his SA 8300 was if they pryed it from his cold dead hands.

Police were called when Time Warner representatives showed up at nickdawgs house. Although nickdawg was unarmed he refused to let TW technicians take his precious SA 8300. Tazor guns were used in the attempt to remove the DVR from this man who cared so much for his machine but police were unaware that the box was still plugged in. This caused the SA 8300 to blow all of it's cheap hardware circuits and as a result nickdawg was killed.

The officers who used the Tazors are assigned desk duty while Internal Affairs investigates this matter.

In interviews with his fellow forum members, one known as "hookbill" said, "I always warned him that thing was trouble, but he just loved it. I'm really going to miss his comments on the boards.":D;):p

MSN Money released a list of the 10 worst customer service companies. AOL tops the list, but notice the ratings for some of our favorite :mad: cable providers:

MSN's "Customer Service Hall Of Shame"
1. AOL
2. Comcast
3. Sprint
4. Abercrombie & Fitch
5. Qwest
6. Capital One
7. Bank Of America
8. Time Warner Cable
9. HSBC Finance
10. Cox Communications


Go here to read the full article and the responses from many of the "winners": http://*******.com/5yzvs5

LMAO Hook, LMAO :D

MSN Money released a list of the 10 worst customer service companies. AOL tops the list, but notice the ratings for some of our favorite :mad: cable providers:

MSN's "Customer Service Hall Of Shame"
1. AOL
2. Comcast
3. Sprint
4. Abercrombie & Fitch
5. Qwest
6. Capital One
7. Bank Of America
8. Time Warner Cable
9. HSBC Finance
10. Cox Communications


Go here to read the full article and the responses from many of the "winners": http://*******.com/5yzvs5

I'm surprised TWC is so low on that list. Clearly they didn't poll the Cleveland area. Abercrombie and Fitch? Do people need to call and say their clothes don't fit?

The link doesn't work, its all "*"

Ya, the A&F listing is peculiar. Maybe they're refering to the "in store" customer service.

MSN Money released a list of the 10 worst customer service companies. AOL tops the list, but notice the ratings for some of our favorite :mad: cable providers:

MSN's "Customer Service Hall Of Shame"
1. AOL
2. Comcast
3. Sprint
4. Abercrombie & Fitch
5. Qwest
6. Capital One
7. Bank Of America
8. Time Warner Cable
9. HSBC Finance
10. Cox Communications


Go here to read the full article and the responses from many of the "winners": http://*******.com/5yzvs5

Oh, please get me a link for this. I'd love to bring this it the office.

My supervisor used to work for TW and he thinks they are "examples of Great Customer Service." I always tell him that if he thinks we are not doing better then TW he needs to bump his meds up.

Oh, please get me a link for this. I'd love to bring this it the office.

My supervisor used to work for TW and he thinks they are "examples of Great Customer Service." I always tell him that if he thinks we are not doing better then TW he needs to bump his meds up.
Here's the link:
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SmartSpending/ConsumerActionGuide/TheCustomerServiceHallOfShame.aspx

Ya, the A&F listing is peculiar. Maybe they're refering to the "in store" customer service.

The last time I walked past an Abercrombie & Fitch store, they had the music blaring so loud, I doubt a customer could hold a conversation with one of the salespeople in the store. I suppose that's part of their "hip" sales strategy to keep anyone older than 25 from shopping there. :D

AT&T has introduced U-Verse for Small Business:

http://smallbiz.att.com/businessuverse

http://www.att.com/gen/press-room?pid=4800&cdvn=news&newsarticleid=25692

This is data only, no TV.

FWIW, I called them to check on a couple office locations here in the Cleveland area and neither of them had service available yet. $100 for a 10M/1.5M connection for a business would be a helluva deal.

how the heck is DirecTV not on that list?

I used to have Cox Cable and they had great customer service. DirecTV on the other hand took my money and started treating me like scum.

how the heck is DirecTV not on that list?

I used to have Cox Cable and they had great customer service. DirecTV on the other hand took my money and started treating me like scum.

All cable companies treat you like scum. I haven't met a single one I liked.

This can probably be revised to just assume that MOST companies will not treat you well.

Here's one of my favorite sites:

http://www.consumerist.com

Lots of useful information and interesting stories.

I had a problem with an order with Sirius Satellite and used some techniques suggested on the site and had a great deal of success.

All cable companies treat you like scum. I haven't met a single one I liked.

[QUOTE=hookbill;13966676]Brought to you by those fine folks at Cisco (Scientific Atlanta).:)

nickdawg, SA/Cisco are blowing it out their respected butts with their machines. Face it, the SA 83000 HDC is a pos and everybody knows it. Poorly designed from the beginning and now trying to take a hunk of garbage and throw new software in it that it wasn't desingned for creates that age old problem: garbage in, garbage out.

The problem is that with so many cable companies working with different equipment even though the name is the same you are going to have issues trying to design a box that will work with cable cards everywhere. This goes for TiVo as well. Motorola boxes and the M cards seem to give Comcrap customers fits but work well in SA boxes on TW.

-----------

Well, after more than a month of running it clear that my TiVo Series 3 is just a more flaky and less stable experience than my Series 1 and 2, and the primary cause of this is DRM technologies - i.e. cablecard, HDCP and the wonderful CCI-byte

If you are stuck with DRM, the issue is not that cablecards and the choice and equipment ownership they allow are a bad idea in principle. CAMs <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional_Access_Module> are a very similar technology widely used in DVB satellite receivers in Europe which have been working just fine for over a decade - nothing like the issues with cablecards. And you can buy and own them yourself. The root causes of the problem are bad standards definition, poor implementation, lack of deployment commitment, and weak regulation, for which the blame lies firmly with the box vendors, CableLabs, the Cable Cos and the FCC.

[QUOTE=hookbill;13966676]The problem is that with so many cable companies working with different equipment even though the name is the same you are going to have issues trying to design a box that will work with cable cards everywhere. This goes for TiVo as well. Motorola boxes and the M cards seem to give Comcrap customers fits but work well in SA boxes on TW.

-----------

Well, after more than a month of running it clear that my TiVo Series 3 is just a more flaky and less stable experience than my Series 1 and 2, and the primary cause of this is DRM technologies - i.e. cablecard, HDCP and the wonderful CCI-byte

If you are stuck with DRM, the issue is not that cablecards and the choice and equipment ownership they allow are a bad idea in principle. CAMs <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional_Access_Module> are a very similar technology widely used in DVB satellite receivers in Europe which have been working just fine for over a decade - nothing like the issues with cablecards. And you can buy and own them yourself. The root causes of the problem are bad standards definition, poor implementation, lack of deployment commitment, and weak regulation, for which the blame lies firmly with the box vendors, CableLabs, the Cable Cos and the FCC.

What problems are you having? The only one I have is the fact that they changed the CCI byte and you can't transfer digital channels from one box to the other. Other then that, both my S3 and TiVo HD work just fine and that is not TiVo's fault, that's Time Warners decision to put the 0X02 code on the CCI byte on the digital channels.

Well, at least you're generous in spreading the blame. You didn't leave anyone out.:)

A BIG thumbs up to WEWS :D:D They fixed their overscan problem. The black stripe at the bottom of the screen is gone. LOST looks great :D

If anyone is reading, THANKS!!

nickdawg....I just love the new logo under your name.

And come on, give me some credit. That was a pretty good piece I did last night.;)

I just made a comment about what you did to her. I got a dirty look. Thanks dude, you got me in trouble.:p

Hehe - I take no blame. You opened your mouth.... After years of marriage, you should know better. :)

Does anyone know if TWC has started using SDV in Northeast Ohio. I am in a former Comcast area and have noticed that some of the VOD movies that I request don't show up on the clear QAM channels that carry the VOD programming. I have rescanned for channels several times and nothing else shows up. Is it possible that SDV is being implemented.

Another possibility is that TWC has gotten some new technology that allows them to encrypt VOD while still being able to fast forward and rewind. I find it curious that most VOD movies show up on the clear QAM but some do not.

How the heck could VOD show up on QAM?!? Don't you need a box for that?

Does anyone know if TWC has started using SDV in Northeast Ohio. I am in a former Comcast area and have noticed that some of the VOD movies that I request don't show up on the clear QAM channels that carry the VOD programming. I have rescanned for channels several times and nothing else shows up. Is it possible that SDV is being implemented.

Another possibility is that TWC has gotten some new technology that allows them to encrypt VOD while still being able to fast forward and rewind. I find it curious that most VOD movies show up on the clear QAM but some do not.

I highly doubt that TWC got some new technology that blocks VOD channels, but I could be wrong. Instead of encrypting more channels, they actually opened a couple more up (at least for me) with the realignment that used to be encrypted. While I haven't seen any VOD movies on QAM recently, I haven't looked, and I've even lost track of their channels numbers since I got a new tv, and they messed around with the QAM channels a few months ago.

How the heck could VOD show up on QAM?!? Don't you need a box for that?

If you have a QAM tuner, and someone close to you (I don't know what the proximity is, the same apartment building, the same main feed to a neighborhood or what) orders VOD, you can watch it with them if you can find the channel. Obviously you are at the mercy of their remote control though.

It sounds like Clevelandfan you actually order the movies yourself, but don't have a STB, is that correct? Assuming our QAM channels are the same now with the realignment, what are (or were if they are really gone) the VOD channels?

I highly doubt that TWC got some new technology that blocks VOD channels, but I could be wrong. Instead of encrypting more channels, they actually opened a couple more up (at least for me) with the realignment that used to be encrypted. While I haven't seen any VOD movies on QAM recently, I haven't looked, and I've even lost track of their channels numbers since I got a new tv, and they messed around with the QAM channels a few months ago.



If you have a QAM tuner, and someone close to you (I don't know what the proximity is, the same apartment building, the same main feed to a neighborhood or what) orders VOD, you can watch it with them if you can find the channel. Obviously you are at the mercy of their remote control though.

It sounds like Clevelandfan you actually order the movies yourself, but don't have a STB, is that correct? Assuming our QAM channels are the same now with the realignment, what are (or were if they are really gone) the VOD channels?

This happened to me as well in University Heights...I watched several movies with my QAM tuner someone else ordered before I got the "BOX"

This happened to me as well in University Heights...I watched several movies with my QAM tuner someone else ordered before I got the "BOX"

Oh, what I forgot to say is that I needed to be scanning my channels to find the VOD when it was active. I think once it was gone it was gone until I rescanned.

Does anyone know if TWC has started using SDV in Northeast Ohio. I am in a former Comcast area and have noticed that some of the VOD movies that I request don't show up on the clear QAM channels that carry the VOD programming. I have rescanned for channels several times and nothing else shows up. Is it possible that SDV is being implemented.

Another possibility is that TWC has gotten some new technology that allows them to encrypt VOD while still being able to fast forward and rewind. I find it curious that most VOD movies show up on the clear QAM but some do not.

I've seen other former comcast customers report the same thing. And they have a motobox.

I have one box but several TV's and a computer. I used to be able to order a VOD program from the cable box on my main TV and then watch the program on the other TV's and/or my computer via HDHR as well on the QAM channel. It used to move around from one channel/sub-channel to another. The VOD channels were 75.x, 76.x, 77.x and 78.x. Now the VOD channels (that I can find) are 82.x and 83.x. I have rescanned the channels on my TVs and on the HDHR and it seems I'm missing at least one VOD channel, unless it is encrypted and does not show up in the clear. Like I said before 80% of the time, the programming shows up on 82.x or 83.x. The other 20% it does not show up at all (even though the TV with the cable box shows the program just fine). SDV on a limited basis - working out the kinks before they roll it out more broadly?? Encryption of some VOD based on the content?

I have one box but several TV's and a computer. I used to be able to order a VOD program from the cable box on my main TV and then watch the program on the other TV's and/or my computer via HDHR as well on the QAM channel. It used to move around from one channel/sub-channel to another. The VOD channels were 75.x, 76.x, 77.x and 78.x. Now the VOD channels (that I can find) are 82.x and 83.x. I have rescanned the channels on my TVs and on the HDHR and it seems I'm missing at least one VOD channel, unless it is encrypted and does not show up in the clear. Like I said before 80% of the time, the programming shows up on 82.x or 83.x. The other 20% it does not show up at all (even though the TV with the cable box shows the program just fine). SDV on a limited basis - working out the kinks before they roll it out more broadly?? Encryption of some VOD based on the content?

They have placed all digital channels on CCI Byte 0x02 and that might be why you can't see what you use to. It's the same problem I have moving digital channel recordings on my tow TiVo.

What really burns me about this is that they are using that setting on the HD channels that are available on analog SD. So if I record something on TNTHD TBSHD, ESPNHD AND ESPNHD2 I can't move them from one machine to the other.

And it's not like I have that much that I record on those channels so it's easy for me to accomodate them on my S3. It's just that it doesn't make sense. If you can copy freely the analog version, why not the HD versions, or at least change the CCI Byte to 0x01. That would allow only one transfer.

This is a TW decision and not a local decision. And it's legal so there is not a darn thing I can do about it. I've sent Mr. Fry 3 letters on this and got zero response, and I know it's because it's out of his hands.

What really burns me about this is that they are using that setting on the HD channels that are available on analog SD.

Hollywood and the FCC have always been interested in protecting digital versions of programming, even if the same programs are available in analog. The reason is simple; it's possible to make unlimited copies of a digitally-delivered program and each copy is perfect. Go through the FCC regs regarding CCI flags and you'll see the clear emphasis on protecting anything that's digital.

Why do you want to make unlimited digital copies of programs? Is there something we don't know, mr hookbill? A pirate? That explains all the birds :D ;)

Today it really doesn't matter. It's not worth or possible to do anything with the programming from those networks. I wouldn't even copy a movie from TNT to DVD for me to watch(Forrest Gump was on earlier). I'd rather by a clean, bug free DVD.

The networks fill their screens with so much crap, this copying issue is a moot point.

My rule of thumb: if you can copy shows with the SA8300, then it should be allowed on your box. If not, then it shouldn't be allowed. It should be the same across ALL platforms.

Hollywood and the FCC have always been interested in protecting digital versions of programming, even if the same programs are available in analog. The reason is simple; it's possible to make unlimited copies of a digitally-delivered program and each copy is perfect. Go through the FCC regs regarding CCI flags and you'll see the clear emphasis on protecting anything that's digital.

That is so much bull pucky I don't know where to start. First, we are talking digital programing. Now there is a difference between digital and HD, you know that as well as I do.

I don't have a problem with them protecting any of the premium channels or pay per view channels. That is understandable. But you tell me, why do channels like SOAP NET, ESPN CLASSIC, ESPN NEWS, FOX BUISNESS, TRINITY BROADCAST NETWORK, FAMILY LAND, LIFETIME MOVIES, FOX MOVIE CHANNEL, COUNTRY MUSIC CHANNEL, and I could go on for a long time but I'll stop with the big one, OHIO NEWS NETWORK need protection? There is nobody that will turn a profit from these programs in digital production, and quite honestly nobody who will turn a profit in ESPN or ESPN2 in HD.

It's absolute crap and TW knows it. I like the idea of TRINITY BROADCAST, I'm sure God doesn't want the word spread because it's only available in digital.:rolleyes: Heaven help somebody make a copy of something like that, as if anyone would.

They are not protecting anybody. They are limiting the rights of people who own DVR's that are capable of transfering programing. And as I said earlier all they really need to do is put it in a 0x01 code, that's transfer once only.

You really have to be a moron (not you personally Cathode Kid) to buy the notion that they are "protecting" these type of channels. Have you ever seen once on G4? Hell, these show were made in the 50's and 60's. We're talking Hee Haw here.

And I still think that if it's shown on analog and on HD then it should be copy freely. It's the same damn show and most of that are reruns of Law & Order!

"Time Waner - We think about screwing you as much as possible." That is there true slogan.

Why do you want to make unlimited digital copies of programs? Is there something we don't know, mr hookbill? A pirate? That explains all the birds :D ;)

Today it really doesn't matter. It's not worth or possible to do anything with the programming from those networks. I wouldn't even copy a movie from TNT to DVD for me to watch(Forrest Gump was on earlier). I'd rather by a clean, bug free DVD.

The networks fill their screens with so much crap, this copying issue is a moot point.

My rule of thumb: if you can copy shows with the SA8300, then it should be allowed on your box. If not, then it shouldn't be allowed. It should be the same across ALL platforms.


Well, mr nickdawg we can copy everything you can on the SA 8300. If you take the time to read what I'm talking about I'm talking about restricting the copying of digital programs from one TiVo to another. And also if you take the time to actually read what I write I say that if they do want to restrict then they can use limited restriction. Boy, you really gotta look at everything that is said.

However you and I do agree, most of those shows arn't worth copying in the first place. And that is EXACTLY my point. So why restrict them?

Another new thing I noticed as far as copy protection: It's now possible to record the digital music channels on the Navigator DVR. Passport used to call them "Unrecordable Channel", like there was some form of content protection to avoid DVR recording it.

I tried recording earlier an I noticed the box was moving very slow and acting buggy while recording. Almost thought it was going to reboot. When I went to play it back, the FF controls moved very slow and my recording was fukced up. I recorded an Avenged Sevenfold song that started right as I tuned to the channel. It was 19 after the hour. The recording says it started at :19, yet the content was different. It was not A7X. I don't know what it did, but this is very interesting.

Another new thing I noticed as far as copy protection: It's now possible to record the digital music channels on the Navigator DVR. Passport used to call them "Unrecordable Channel", like there was some form of content protection to avoid DVR recording it.

I tried recording earlier an I noticed the box was moving very slow and acting buggy while recording. Almost thought it was going to reboot. When I went to play it back, the FF controls moved very slow and my recording was fukced up. I recorded an Avenged Sevenfold song that started right as I tuned to the channel. It was 19 after the hour. The recording says it started at :19, yet the content was different. It was not A7X. I don't know what it did, but this is very interesting.

One of the first things I noticed when I got my S3 a year and a half ago was I could record the digital music channels. I have no desire too, but I could do it. I don't know if I still can, I'm going to bed now and I'll check it out upstairs to see if I still can.

I have no clue how that works. One one hand, the Tivo follows the same encrytpion rules as the SA boxes, since the Tivo uses the cable card for conditional access like what's built in the SA box.

On the other hand, Tivo gets different guide data from a different source. Blocking recording could be something specifically written in the software that's not present on Tivo.

On Passport, certain channels like VOD were unrecordable and the DVR progress bar didn't even show up. On Navigator the bar shows up on every channel, except VOD that has it's on bar to navigate the show. Subscription channels have the progress bar as well but you cannot record(obviously) and there isn't a message saying anything.

So I go upstairs and turn on a music channel. I hit the record button and away it goes. So I can still record the music channels.

Hey, but wait. Theres more. Not only can I record these channels but I'll be darnd if I can also copy them freely!. That means that if I'm really an enterprising individual with a lot of time on my hands I could probably take this digital music and put it right on a CD or a DVD. I could record hours of music, move it to my computer and burn DVD's like crazy. Right off of Time Warners digital unprotected music channels!

This just adds more proof that it's not the content they are protecting. It's what they want the view to do they are preventing.

I have no clue how that works. One one hand, the Tivo follows the same encrytpion rules as the SA boxes, since the Tivo uses the cable card for conditional access like what's built in the SA box.


Yeah, that's a mystery to me as well. Maybe they took the protection off a long time ago and we just didn't realize it. I don't think the guide has anything to do with it.

Yeah, that's a mystery to me as well. Maybe they took the protection off a long time ago and we just didn't realize it. I don't think the guide has anything to do with it.

I was thinking guide data b/c that info tells it what program is on. There are a few of these "No data" channels out there like #218 Village TV, a new channel. This channel cannot be recorded.

It's really stange. SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! They might "fix" this problem now that it has been discussed.

I have no clue how that works. One one hand, the Tivo follows the same encrytpion rules as the SA boxes, since the Tivo uses the cable card for conditional access like what's built in the SA box.

On the other hand, Tivo gets different guide data from a different source. Blocking recording could be something specifically written in the software that's not present on Tivo.......

The difference could be "design interpretation" by the mfr's engineers. There are a number of these "design interpretation" issues with the current and evolving HDMI specs. Here are two quick examples of this in the HDMI design world when there is an HDMI video signal input:

1. Passing full video RGB color range (BTB & WTW): Some mfr's do, some don't
2. Video Overlay (introducing anything like Volume Level on to your tv screen that is not part of the original content): some mfr's allow this, some don't

Both examples and all four different outcomes are correct and within specs, based on ones interpretation of the current "specs".

Maybe Tivo and SA interpret the copy protection laws and rules differently. Or maybe Tivo is more confident in their attorney pool. :D

Also, Tivo is independent and sells direct to the consumer whereas SA's customer is the cable companies. It may be the cable co's interpretation of the copyright rules/laws (read: fear of) so the cable co's mandate more restrictions from their STB box suppliers just to keep out of hot water.

Purely speculation though. ;)

It's really stange. SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! They might "fix" this problem now that it has been discussed.

I won't say anything if you don't.:)

The difference could be "design interpretation" by the mfr's engineers. There are a number of these "design interpretation" issues with the current and evolving HDMI specs. Here are two quick examples of this in the HDMI design world when there is an HDMI video signal input:

1. Passing full video RGB color range (BTB & WTW): Some mfr's do, some don't
2. Video Overlay (introducing anything like Volume Level on to your tv screen that is not part of the original content): some mfr's allow this, some don't

Both examples and all four different outcomes are correct and within specs, based on ones interpretation of the current "specs".

Maybe Tivo and SA interpret the copy protection laws and rules differently. Or maybe Tivo is more confident in their attorney pool. :D

Also, Tivo is independent and sells direct to the consumer whereas SA's customer is the cable companies. It may be the cable co's interpretation of the copyright rules/laws (read: fear of) so the cable co's mandate more restrictions from their STB box suppliers just to keep out of hot water.

Purely speculation though. ;)


Well, unless nickdawg gets a flux capacitor and we can travel back to around September 30, 2007 when I had both the SA 8300 and the TiVo S3 we won't know. It didn't occure to me that the SA 8300 might be capabable of receiving that signal so I didn't try, I just thought it was something that the TiVo could do and SA 8300 couldn't. At that time I didn't have a clue about CCI Byte, or what that meant or anything.

Nickdawg on your diagnostic screen can you see CCI Byte?

Last night Armstrong in Medina added HGTV-HD and Food-HD to the HD lineup. This brings the total number up to 39 HD channels. All we need is Weather and Speed and I'll be happy!

All hail Armstrong! :p

Speaking of Weather-HD, how would that work with the "Local on the 8's?" Isn't all of that inserted by the local cable company? I wonder if they will need special equipment to insert an HD local break? I'm thinking it would likely be just an SD feed, but to me that would kind of defeat the purpose of having and HD channel. I would want and HD local radar to give better detail.

Yes, I know they have other special programming and specials that could benefit. But I've never really watched the Weather channel for that.

Most of the Weather Channel's HD content consists of pre-recorded documentaries. Much of the actual current weather content (including studio work) is still SD.

However, I just turned it on and the national "Local on the 8's" feed is actually HD information (I'm on DirecTV, so we don't get a local forecast feed so I don't know what that is like).

The difference could be "design interpretation" by the mfr's engineers. There are a number of these "design interpretation" issues with the current and evolving HDMI specs. Here are two quick examples of this in the HDMI design world when there is an HDMI video signal input:

1. Passing full video RGB color range (BTB & WTW): Some mfr's do, some don't
2. Video Overlay (introducing anything like Volume Level on to your tv screen that is not part of the original content): some mfr's allow this, some don't

Both examples and all four different outcomes are correct and within specs, based on ones interpretation of the current "specs".


Toby, you raise a very good point. I know of a similar situation regarding early Panasonic tvs with cablecard slots. They had interpreted the laws a little too strictly, and the result was this: if you tuned to an encrypted channel, it turned off the digital audio output of the set! They later came to their senses and issued an upgrade that loosened the interpretation of the law to allow for digital audio output on encrypted channels.

Regarding the Tivo issue, I see three different ways that this could be addressed that should satisy all parties:

1) Create a "copy twice" CCI flag that allows for room-to-room dubbing.

2) Create a hook in the firmware that will allow two Tivos to be "married" in a way that only allows dubbing between those two MAC addresses.

3) Create a move function in Tivo that would transfer (not copy) the content from machine 1 to machine 2 and erase it from machine 1 in the process, leaving the user with one copy at all times. You could call this a "placeshifting" function.

CE technologies generally evolve faster than the law does; witness all of the legal chaos that the internet itself has created. It will take some time to hammer all these issues out in a manner that is fair to all parties. To this end, I think that a rational, level-headed discussion in forums such as this can help the cause.

ck

Regarding the Tivo issue, I see three different ways that this could be addressed that should satisy all parties:

1) Create a "copy twice" CCI flag that allows for room-to-room dubbing.

How is that different from Copy once, 0x01?



2) Create a hook in the firmware that will allow two Tivos to be "married" in a way that only allows dubbing between those two MAC addresses.

3) Create a move function in Tivo that would transfer (not copy) the content from machine 1 to machine 2 and erase it from machine 1 in the process, leaving the user with one copy at all times. You could call this a "placeshifting" function.

CE technologies generally evolve faster than the law does; witness all of the legal chaos that the internet itself has created. It will take some time to hammer all these issues out in a manner that is fair to all parties. To this end, I think that a rational, level-headed discussion in forums such as this can help the cause.

ck

Point #2 you still are not addressing the basic question, which is why put record no copy on ALL digital channels? That's what I have my biggest problem with. I downloaded something on one of the digital channels, maybe ESPN Classic that was AWA Wrestling from the 80's. This really needs copy protection?

Point #3 has been talked about for sometime and personally I'd like that. But
Your point on the HD I consider somewhat valid. I can see why TNT might not want copy freely the HD versiions of a show like "The Closer" or if we had FXHD "Nip/Tuck". But just to put copy protection on all digital is excessively controlling.

D* people, I believe that you can now transfer shows from one box to another, true? If so, you receive everything digital. So are you restricted in your transfers, and can you transfer to your computer?

I noticed last night that the WBNX-55 HD channel is pretty horrible.
Not sure when it began. My recording of Supernatural on Thursday looks OK.

The video is pausing and stuttering. Audio also seems to be slipping or even lagging.

I'm watching on DirecTV. Not sure if it's a WBNX problem or a DirecTV problem.

I noticed last night that the WBNX-55 HD channel is pretty horrible.
Not sure when it began. My recording of Supernatural on Thursday looks OK.

The video is pausing and stuttering. Audio also seems to be slipping or even lagging.

I'm watching on DirecTV. Not sure if it's a WBNX problem or a DirecTV problem.

Was that live and is it still going on? I can take a look via TW.

Personally I think many of these type of errors are really broadcast errors and not the cable company or sat's fault.

Has anyone with Time Warner been able to get a "single stream" cable card working with any PVR or TV? My last two cable guys have told me that they've never been able to get "single stream" scientific atlanta cable cards working with any kind of device. They can only get "multi-stream" cable cards working. I need a single stream for my older Sony DHG-HDD250 DVR. I'm in the old Comcast area and I had no problem with the motorola cable card on this same Sony DVR.

Has anyone with Time Warner been able to get a "single stream" cable card working with any PVR or TV? My last two cable guys have told me that they've never been able to get "single stream" scientific atlanta cable cards working with any kind of device. They can only get "multi-stream" cable cards working. I need a single stream for my older Sony DHG-HDD250 DVR. I'm in the old Comcast area and I had no problem with the motorola cable card on this same Sony DVR.

Huh? S card = Single Stream. M card = Multi Stream.

This is another of those things about TW that irritate me, and others. For example I wanted a M card for my HD TiVo. I was told they would bring out an M card but they didn't have any so they brought out two S cards That was fine, it worked but it seemed like in this area M cards are hard to get. Apparently your area has them.

So here's what you do. You email steve.fry@twcable.com and explain your situation to the President of TW NEO. You wil get a call Monday from the manager in your area who will send out two techs at YOUR convenience and they will install a S card for you. Make sure you include your phone number and I like to give them the account number too.

I promise, that will work.;)

Has anyone with Time Warner been able to get a "single stream" cable card working with any PVR or TV? My last two cable guys have told me that they've never been able to get "single stream" scientific atlanta cable cards working with any kind of device. They can only get "multi-stream" cable cards working.

This type of complaint is usually due to cable techs who either don't know what they're doing, or have adopted a "this doesn't work" mentality from what they've heard through the grapevine. I have two single-stream SA cards in my TiVo HD - the TWC tech who installed them seemed to have been around the block a few times, and the cards were installed and running within about 15 minutes. (He stuck around for another half-hour, poking around to make sure everything worked correctly.)

This type of complaint is usually due to cable techs who either don't know what they're doing, or have adopted a "this doesn't work" mentality from what they've heard through the grapevine. I have two single-stream SA cards in my TiVo HD - the TWC tech who installed them seemed to have been around the block a few times, and the cards were installed and running within about 15 minutes. (He stuck around for another half-hour, poking around to make sure everything worked correctly.)

This is not what the poster was talking about. He said he needed a single stream card for an older Sony modle DVR.

However after I thought about it I can't think of why it would make a difference if it was an M card or S card. M cards can deliver single streams as easily as multiple streams, i.e. you need to use two M cards on the TiVo S3 where as you only need one on the TiVo HD.

If they have tried it and it doesn't work he will get no where trying to explain this to these techs. steve.fry@twcable.com will get results.

Still, I don't understand why a M card would not work. If required it will act like an S card.

I have seen reports from people who live in Comcast areas who say that the techs have problems installing M cards on the S3. This seems exclusive to Comcast. Even though they are Time Warner now you still have as mnowlin pointed out the same techs and the same talk that will go through the shop.

Write Steve Fry. Many people in this forum will tell you how well that works. And one other thing: Did they try to install the M card and it failed? If so the maybe because it's an older Sony it will only use the S card, though logic tells me otherwise. If you have to get an S card they are available. Mr. Fry's office will make it happen.

.......However after I thought about it I can't think of why it would make a difference if it was an M card or S card. M cards can deliver single streams as easily as multiple streams, i.e. you need to use two M cards on the TiVo S3 where as you only need one on the TiVo HD...................Still, I don't understand why a M card would not work. If required it will act like an S card.............

I have seen reports from people who live in Comcast areas who say that the techs have problems installing M cards on the S3. This seems exclusive to Comcast.............

Older equipment may have been built prior to the Multi-Stream/M-Card/Two-Way Cable Card standards from being settled on. Many people are finding out the hard way that their older HDTV's are only capable of one way cable cards and cannot utilize advanced services (ch. lineup, PPV, etc...) via cable cards if their HDTV cannot except the newer two way cards.

Dunno about TWC or Comcast systems but a lot of the cable card issues are related to hardware incompatibilities. TWC may use XYZ brand cable card that works fine on all brands except Sony tv's. WOW cable may use ABC brand cable card which works fine on all brands except Panny tv's.

Design interpretation strikes again. :D

Gentlemen, in case anyone stopped looking or paying attention I would like to point out that the NBA FINALS will be between The Los Angeles Lakers and The Boston Celtics, which I think someone in this forum predicted.

Hey....That was me. I predicted that:D:D:D

Now guys I'm a person who believes in good vibes. When the Tribe was in playing against the Red Sox I rooted for the tribe despite the fact that I have been a Red Sox fan for 39 years. Why? Well, I live in the area now and Boston had broken the curse and I just plain like the Tribe. Unfortunately they lost.

The Laker/Celtic rivalry is just as bitter as Red Sox/Yankees. We hate the Celtics. And after what Boston did to the Tribe and Cavs you should hate Boston. I know you already do. So jump on my bandwagon. Go Lakers. Yeah, it's not the Wine and Gold, it's the Purple and Gold. Pretty darn close, huh?

The Celtics are evil. They are like the Yankees, full of themselves and their "parkay" floor and all that garbage. So join in guys, watch the NBA Finals and root for the Lakers.

Good things will happen if you do. Perhaps the Indians will turn it around. Or the Browns will go to the Super Bowl. It's all cosmic you see and being from La La Land myself I understand these things.;)

Older equipment may have been built prior to the Multi-Stream/M-Card/Two-Way Cable Card standards from being settled on. Many people are finding out the hard way that their older HDTV's are only capable of one way cable cards and cannot utilize advanced services (ch. lineup, PPV, etc...) via cable cards if their HDTV cannot except the newer two way cards.

Dunno about TWC or Comcast systems but a lot of the cable card issues are related to hardware incompatibilities. TWC may use XYZ brand cable card that works fine on all brands except Sony tv's. WOW cable may use ABC brand cable card which works fine on all brands except Panny tv's.

Design interpretation strikes again. :D

Two way communication has nothing to do with what we are talking about here. We are talking about how a slot handles a M Card and S Card.

M cards are designed so that you are able to have multiple streams come through. If the slot is designed to be able to use that card then it will take the streams and allow you to receive more then one channel. For example the TiVo S3 can use the M card however it still needs two of them because the slots were not designed for multiple streaming. The TiVo HD only needs one M card so it can deliver two separate channels through the one slot.

The Tuning Adapter that has been developed by CableLabs, TiVo, Motorola, and SA will allow two way communication for SDV for TiVos. Since I have S cards in all my TiVo's I won't need an M card for the Digital Converter to work. It's the hardware, not the card. SA machines have been designed for two way communication for years which is why you can get on demand with no card. Same with Motorola although from what I hear in some areas those boxes don't work with TW.

Two way communication has nothing to do with what we are talking about here. We are talking about how a slot handles a M Card and S Card........

Yes. I brought up the Cable Card issues to potentially explain why the original posters older box may not be compatible with his cable providers cards. He seems to indicate that his "older" device cannot accept a multi-stream card and is limited to single-stream cards. Unfortunately, his cable providers single-stream cards are not very compatible with many (or any) devices.

As mnowlin pointed out in his response, the original posters problem could simply be the technicians lack of knowledge or experience with such cards. I was just trying to point out that it could also be a true hardware incompatibility as well, as indicated by the technician.

Yes. I brought up the Cable Card issues to potentially explain why the original posters older box may not be compatible with his cable providers cards. He seems to indicate that his "older" device cannot accept a multi-stream card and is limited to single-stream cards. Unfortunately, his cable providers single-stream cards are not very compatible with many (or any) devices.

As mnowlin pointed out in his response, the original posters problem could simply be the technicians lack of knowledge or experience with such cards. I was just trying to point out that it could also be a true hardware incompatibility as well, as indicated by the technician.

I can see your point. Cable cards do get different versions from time to time and perhaps his Sony is not capable of working with the current version? That would mean that a S card may not work as well.

But being as it's a Sony I kind of find it hard to believe that they wouldn't have thought about that. I still say it's Steve Fry time.

Thanks for all the replies. I think for now I'll try an M Card and see if that works. I didn't know you could use a M Card in a Series 3 TiVo so maybe it will work with my Sony.

The S Card I have will not take the firmware update in my Sony. It just constantly tries to update itself. The cable guy told me he was going to try and grab me a Motorola Card but that it may prove difficult, since Time Warner won't allow anything that is not Scientific Atlanta out again since they have a big contract with them.

I'll use the Steve Fry card as a last resort. The guys I'm working with now have been very cooperative and are trying their best to figure this out. The head cable card guru at my local office is even stumped on this right now.

Thanks for all the replies. I think for now I'll try an M Card and see if that works. I didn't know you could use a M Card in a Series 3 TiVo so maybe it will work with my Sony.

The S Card I have will not take the firmware update in my Sony. It just constantly tries to update itself. The cable guy told me he was going to try and grab me a Motorola Card but that it may prove difficult, since Time Warner won't allow anything that is not Scientific Atlanta out again since they have a big contract with them.

I'll use the Steve Fry card as a last resort. The guys I'm working with now have been very cooperative and are trying their best to figure this out. The head cable card guru at my local office is even stumped on this right now.

That doesn't sound to good. If the Sony won't take the firmware update from the S card I'm not sure the M card will work either.

The "head cable card guru" at your local office, does he work in headend? If not then he's no real guru. I know the best cable card guru at TW NEO and SHE works in headend.:)

Since you're in an old Comcast area they probably have a good person but ask if he works in headend. Those are the best contact people. And it sounds like you got a sincere hard working crew on your problem.

I've had two cable card installs and in both cases I "bitched" about the service before I got it. At that time I had Macedonia as my local office and the Supervisor and a lead came out and did the first install. Then a few months ago when I got the TiVo HD I had already had a bad experience with the Concord office so that's why I cut though the red tape and went to the top. Now I have the Supervisors direct line. Trust me they do not want to hear from Mr. Fry's office. Plus I have a contact in headend.

Many people seem to want to wait until "the last resort" to contact Steve Fry. Why? These guys are not your relatives or your friends and they are not going to get in trouble. Get your problem fixed, to heck with waiting until the last resort.

There is an article in Readers Digest that talks about this and it recommends go to the top. Mr. Fry has a firewall of people who know exactly who to contact. So wait if you choose, but I wouldn't.

The S Card I have will not take the firmware update in my Sony. It just constantly tries to update itself.

A few possibilities that come to mind -

1) You might have an RF level issue. The carrier that's used to update the cablecard firmware is typically different from the one that's used to turn it on/off, etc. If you've got low levels on that frequency, it might not be able to see the data stream with the firmware upgrade on it. This problem is handled with traditional RF troubleshooting techniques.

2) The card might not be paired with the host. Ask them to re-pair them after double checking the Host ID and Cablecard ID from the set's diagnostic screens.

3) Firmware incompatibility between the set and the card. Is your set field-upgradable?

4) Bad cablecard or host interface.

It could be something else, but then I can't see your diagnostic screens from here. ;)

Good luck. Hope you get it squared away whatever it is.

A few possibilities that come to mind -

2) The card might not be paired with the host. Ask them to re-pair them after double checking the Host ID and Cablecard ID from the set's diagnostic screens.

3) Firmware incompatibility between the set and the card. Is your set field-upgradable?



I'm putting my money on #3, with #2 a distinct possibility. But from what he says these guys are giving him good service, it doesn't sound like they are rolling their eyes and going "jeeze, another cable card install" which you see so frequently on the TiVo thread and TCF.

If he can get an upgrade for the set that might be his best bet!

Anyway whatever he does hope he gets it taken care of. Good feedback Cathode Kid.

I noticed last night that the WBNX-55 HD channel is pretty horrible.
Not sure when it began. My recording of Supernatural on Thursday looks OK.

The video is pausing and stuttering. Audio also seems to be slipping or even lagging.

I'm watching on DirecTV. Not sure if it's a WBNX problem or a DirecTV problem.
I haven't watched WBNX-DT lately, however the last time I did I too saw this anomaly. It was so annoying I could not keep the channel on.


I have Dish Network (model ViP 622). The HD feed for locals other than the "big 4" are only HD via OTA reception. I believe that is also true for your DirecTv receiver. This means the problems lies with the WBNX digital transmission. I briefly switched over to the satellite-delivered SD feed and there was no problems (other than it was satellite-delivered SD :p ).

I haven't watched WBNX-DT lately, however the last time I did I too saw this anomaly. It was so annoying I could not keep the channel on.


I have Dish Network (model ViP 622). The HD feed for locals other than the "big 4" are only HD via OTA reception. I believe that is also true for your DirecTv receiver. This means the problems lies with the WBNX digital transmission. I briefly switched over to the satellite-delivered SD feed and there was no problems (other than it was satellite-delivered SD :p ).

Actually, DirecTV added WBNX-HD to their locals a few weeks back.
Picture had been great until this past week.
I haven't checked in a few days. Hopefully, WBNX has fixed the problem.

Actually, DirecTV added WBNX-HD to their locals a few weeks back.
Picture had been great until this past week.
I haven't checked in a few days. Hopefully, WBNX has fixed the problem.

That's amazing when you consider how long it took for WBNX-HD to be added to the local cable systems.

Apparently Time Warner has a new supply of DVR's and Non-DVR HD boxes.
They sent me this reply to my question on availability:

"We no longer need to put customers on a reservation list for Standard DVR’s, HD Boxes, and HD\DVR Boxes. All customers wishing to install or upgrade their service can now contact our customer service center at 877.772.2253 to make arrangements. We appreciate your patience during this temporary setback. And thank you for your continued business. "

Apparently Time Warner has a new supply of DVR's and Non-DVR HD boxes.

Does anybody know if they have a non-DVR HD box that has HDMI connectivity?

Does anybody know if they have a non-DVR HD box that has HDMI connectivity?

Ask them if the SA 4250 (updated version of the 3250) is available in your area. It's a non-DVR HD box with a firewire spigot.

Ask them if the SA 4250 (updated version of the 3250) is available in your area. It's a non-DVR HD box with a firewire spigot.

Heh heh heh. Now what do you think a CSR will say to that question?

Think about it.:)

Heh heh heh. Now what do you think a CSR will say to that question?

Think about it.:)

I checked. They're available in most areas. Go for it, pbarach. :)

I checked. They're available in most areas. Go for it, pbarach. :)

And how did you check? Did you call, or was it your "source."

Just get a DVR. You won't know how you lived without it. Plus the DVR boxes seem to work better with the Navigator than the non-DVR boxes. Although a new 4250 should have enough memory to support it.

This is great news!! I have a Pioneer box I want to walk deep into the woods :D The older boxes are complete garbage with Navigator.

Don't read too much into mr. bill's signature.

And how did you check? Did you call, or was it your "source."

Both. I called one of my sources. ;)

Just get a DVR. You won't know how you lived without it. Plus the DVR boxes seem to work better with the Navigator than the non-DVR boxes. Although a new 4250 should have enough memory to support it.

This is great news!! I have a Pioneer box I want to walk deep into the woods :D The older boxes are complete garbage with Navigator.

Don't read too much into mr. bill's signature.

Well, if you want a piece of garbage that has limited features and is totally unreliable then go ahead and get a cable DVR. If your smart you will wait unti the new Sony Technology comes out and you won't need a DVR. Supposedly.

And nickdawg is suffering from mutltiple personality disorder. The majority of times he hates navigator. He even had his signature saying so. Today he is a big fan.

I've been consistant in my support of TiVo but I would have been able to cope with SA if it only did what it was suppose to do.

There is another side of this story as well. Cost. TiVo is far superior to SA but just like any BMW is better then a Chevy Vega (you remember those, don't you?) they cost more. To get better quality you have to pay more. If you want just basic limited DVR then hey, try the Navigator. If you can afford something nicer and want a better product then TiVo is the choice.

Or as I said earlier you can just hold off and see what this Sony Technology will do.

Hookbill, this is not "Sony's Technology." The Yahoo news article was about Sony supporting Tru2Way, which I believe used to be called OCAP. There are a few other TV manufacturers already on board with this.

engadgethd article (http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/05/27/sony-signs-up-to-support-tru2way/)

I am not looking forward to built-in DVR's in TV's. What if I want to switch to satellite? Then the extra hardware I paid for is useless. What if my cable system doesn't support tru2way? Useless again. What about upgrading storage? And does tru2way support 3rd party (ie TiVo) interfaces or are you locked into the cable company system? We all know what happens when the cable company designs interfaces (Navigator anyone?). I'm not an expert on this topic, so feel free to correct me here.

I love my TiVo and I want to continue to use its interface. I want to be able to upgrade my display without having to change set top boxes. I want to be able to upgrade my set top box without having to change displays. It's not for me, I'll take my TiVo S3 with an SDV tuning adapter any day.

Hookbill, this is not "Sony's Technology." The Yahoo news article was about Sony supporting Tru2Way, which I believe used to be called OCAP. There are a few other TV manufacturers already on board with this.

engadgethd article (http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/05/27/sony-signs-up-to-support-tru2way/)

I am not looking forward to built-in DVR's in TV's. What if I want to switch to satellite? Then the extra hardware I paid for is useless. What if my cable system doesn't support tru2way? Useless again. What about upgrading storage? And does tru2way support 3rd party (ie TiVo) interfaces or are you locked into the cable company system? We all know what happens when the cable company designs interfaces (Navigator anyone?). I'm not an expert on this topic, so feel free to correct me here.


I love my TiVo and I want to continue to use its interface. I want to be able to upgrade my display without having to change set top boxes. I want to be able to upgrade my set top box without having to change displays. It's not for me, I'll take my TiVo S3 with an SDV tuning adapter any day.

I got an education on this on another thread from someone else. Actually it was more like a virtual bitch slap, but I understand it now, it's been demonstrated at the CES and I saw a link with the agreement made with SONY and CableLabs (http://www.cablelabs.com/news/pr/2008/ncta_sony_pr.pdf).

As far as the second part of your response, yes, what does this mean to Satellite people? Is it going to cause a price increase? They already are saying that monitors, televisions are going to go up because they all use petroleum products anyway. In the AP article it did say that this technology would be compatible with other DVR's, like TiVo. But why would you need a SA box if you have this technology? TiVo has a lot of other features besides DVR.

As far as disk space, I'll see if I can get an answer on that. I'll assume (yeah I know) that this new technology probably won't require disk space as we use it now.

From what I understand now this technology will not replace DVR's. What it will do is replace the need for a conversion box. You would still need a DVR to record programs.

So as far as satellite goes, those with just a box for their reception would remain the same since this only deals with cable. Existing DVR's would be able to receive the new signal. If you don't have the new technology on your television you would still need a box to convert.

That's my understanding of it at this point.

.............I am not looking forward to built-in DVR's in TV's. What if I want to switch to satellite? Then the extra hardware I paid for is useless. What if my cable system doesn't support tru2way? Useless again. What about upgrading storage? And does tru2way support 3rd party (ie TiVo) interfaces or are you locked into the cable company system? We all know what happens when the cable company designs interfaces (Navigator anyone?). I'm not an expert on this topic, so feel free to correct me here.

I love my TiVo and I want to continue to use its interface. I want to be able to upgrade my display without having to change set top boxes. I want to be able to upgrade my set top box without having to change displays. It's not for me, I'll take my TiVo S3 with an SDV tuning adapter any day.

I see your points, but I must disagree. Having every major CE mfr competing for cable hardware and software is sorely overdue! Imagen if for the past 20 years we had been able to pick our cable boxes from 50 different mfr's instead of just SA, Motorola, Pace and the few others out there.

As far as paying for extra hardware, that's unavoidable in any CE device. But I'd rather have the option of "have it but not need it" than "need it but not have it". Far more flexibility with more options. How many in here have RGB inputs on their HDTV's? How many actually use these inputs? :D

I just upgraded my car's head unit and it came with a bunch of *stuff* that is meaningless to me (sat radio ready, iPod ready, HD radio ready, RDS, two aux ports, CD, Bluetooth, silly "entertainment" screens, etc..). All I wanted was AM, FM, and USB. I'm sure other purchasers of this same head unit LOVE their sat radio & iPod connectivity and think to themselves "why on earth would anyone screw around with USB on this unit" :p

Once this tru2way is incorporated into tv's then we will have the choice of built in digital cable ready or buy/rent our own cable box or go satellite. More choices, more options, more competition. With or without tru2way you can still have your Tivo. ;)

I see your points, but I must disagree. Having every major CE mfr competing for cable hardware and software is sorely overdue! Imagen if for the past 20 years we had been able to pick our cable boxes from 50 different mfr's instead of just SA, Motorola, Pace and the few others out there.

Absolutely. Competition will only make DVR's better. But I think he was more worried about "tru 2 way" as a DVR itself. It isn't and that what my first impression was as well.

As far as paying for extra hardware, that's unavoidable in any CE device. But I'd rather have the option of "have it but not need it" than "need it but not have it". Far more flexibility with more options. How many in here have RGB inputs on their HDTV's? How many actually use these inputs? :D

I use two. I use one of my 2 HDMI ports and one of my component inputs. I have no idea how many are back there but it is excessive.

I just upgraded my car's head unit and it came with a bunch of *stuff* that is meaningless to me (sat radio ready, iPod ready, HD radio ready, RDS, two aux ports, CD, Bluetooth, silly "entertainment" screens, etc..). All I wanted was AM, FM, and USB. I'm sure other purchasers of this same head unit LOVE their sat radio & iPod connectivity and think to themselves "why on earth would anyone screw around with USB on this unit" :p

Geeze, can you brag any more?:D

Just kidding, but XM is a must for me. What the heck do you do with the USB?

Once this tru2way is incorporated into tv's then we will have the choice of built in digital cable ready or buy/rent our own cable box or go satellite. More choices, more options, more competition. With or without tru2way you can still have your Tivo. ;)

Exactly!

I'm just curious. Has anyone who use to have SARA been switched to Navigator? The only one I know for sure are Passport people.

....Geeze, can you brag any more?:D

Just kidding, but XM is a must for me. What the heck do you do with the USB?

Not bragging, it's just a mid-level Pioneer head unit. I was just trying to relate a recent personal experience of "all this extra stuff I have no need for".

USB is being put onto many more CE devices as it's just so universal and flexible. With a USB capable car head unit you can play music files via memory stick, mp3 player, iPod, or even a USB hard drive. I put in an Iomega e-go 160gb USB hard drive loaded with my entire music collection (about 4,600 songs) and I have close to 120gb of unused disk space for future growth. I got tired of continually burning CD's every time I wanted to add a few more songs.

Unfortunately, the low to mid level head units only allow lossy playback via USB (MP3, AAC, WMA-lossy). The more expensive units like the Alpine's will play back lossless files like WAV and WMA-lossless and they are already designing head unit USB support for FLAC and OGG lossless formats.

Though in a car with a mediocre sound system and the inevitable ambient noise in cars I doubt I could hear the difference between lossy & lossless in my car. :(

Though in a car with a mediocre sound system and the inevitable ambient noise in cars I doubt I could hear the difference between lossy & lossless in my car. :(

At some times the compression inherent in MP3 is actually better for overcoming the road noise in a car. Getting the quieter passages to come in a little bit louder helps one to pick out the subleties of the music over the roar of the engine and the whoosh of the wind. Of course there are other tradeoffs in quality with MP3, but selecting a CBR for encoding can help that.

Anyone watching the game this afternoon? Rick Manning sounds normal, but Matt Underwood has a strange echo to his voice, or he's slightly off mike.

I'm watching via Directv and through my sound system.

Yeah, I'm getting it as well through Armstrong in Medina.

Yeah, I'm getting it as well through Armstrong in Medina.

It sounds like they're fixing it. It sounds more normal now.

At some times the compression inherent in MP3 is actually better for overcoming the road noise in a car. Getting the quieter passages to come in a little bit louder helps one to pick out the subleties of the music over the roar of the engine and the whoosh of the wind. Of course there are other tradeoffs in quality with MP3, but selecting a CBR for encoding can help that.

As far as quality of sound goes I can't tell the difference from a CD, MP3, AAC etc.

Maybe it's because I grew up with RECORDS. You know those round things you use to put on a turntable and drop a needle on it.

Now when CD's came out I could hear the difference, big time.

I will say this about XM - quality of sound is not as good as CD or digital cable music, except on their Dolby 5.1 channel Fine Tuning channel 76. But that doesn't do me any good since you need a receiver that has XM built in it and capable of Dolby 5.1. And I refuse to buy more then 1 subscription, although when I return my car in December I may have to.

How the heck did we get here? Oh crap I think I started it by asking about the USB port. Sorry guys.

Anybody else noticing this? I've had the set on WJW for a while now and I'm getting a lot of sound drop offs. OTA, Dish people....Please check in.:)

And I take it from the fact that there was no response that nobody with SARA has been switched to Navigator?

At some times the compression inherent in MP3 is actually better for overcoming the road noise in a car. Getting the quieter passages to come in a little bit louder helps one to pick out the subleties of the music over the roar of the engine and the whoosh of the wind. Of course there are other tradeoffs in quality with MP3, but selecting a CBR for encoding can help that.Unless there is something seriously wrong with the encoder, there should be no audio compression in an MP3 conversion. There are some MP3 tags that include gain management, but this won't affect dynamic range ratios, only overall average level. Audio compression (not to be confused with data compression) is not a part of the MP3 process.

There may be some encoders that offer dynamic range compression as an option when encoding MP3s, but that's an separate process from the encoding itself. Personally, I'd recommend staying away from it - most modern recordings are way too squashed in the first place! <g>

Unless there is something seriously wrong with the encoder, there should be no audio compression in an MP3 conversion. There are some MP3 tags that include gain management, but this won't affect dynamic range ratios, only overall average level. Audio compression (not to be confused with data compression) is not a part of the MP3 process.

However, as several recent articles in Rolling Stone and elsewhere have pointed out, a lot of pop music these days is being recorded with a highly constricted (in the direction of LOUD) dynamic range, to the point of frequent clipping. All of this will be even worse-sounding in an mp3 conversion, which adds distortion of its own.

........... Personally, I'd recommend staying away from it - most modern recordings are way too squashed in the first place! <g>

Yup, I do avoid any/all lossy formats when possible. My first rip is always full WAV with accurate ripping and excellent error detection. Then I convert those WAV's to MP3 VBR @ 320k. Unfortunately some of my devices can't use lossless formats so I'm stuck with MP3's for those :(, or the usage is in an environment where lossless is completely pointless.

[QUOTE=hookbill;14041037]Anybody else noticing this? I've had the set on WJW for a while now and I'm getting a lot of sound drop offs. OTA, Dish people....Please check in.:)

Yes Hook, I had the same audio drops on both TWC and
Directv. Forgot to check OTA.

Ben Music

Yup, I do avoid any/all lossy formats when possible. My first rip is always full WAV with accurate ripping and excellent error detection. Then I convert those WAV's to MP3 VBR @ 320k. Unfortunately some of my devices can't use lossless formats so I'm stuck with MP3's for those :(, or the usage is in an environment where lossless is completely pointless.I'm not suggesting that MP3s can't be quite usable in the right circumstances. I have plenty of them, and I even went out of my way to get a car that would play them from a CD. I am somewhat meticulous in the way I create them, and I do tend to use higher bitrates. My only point is that there is nothing in the MP3 process to cause audio compression, and that for most current pop music it wouldn't be desirable anyway. But as you say, there are plenty of situations in which the damage caused by the MP3 encoding isn't severe enough to be troublesome. Sometimes it's a handy format.

However, as several recent articles in Rolling Stone and elsewhere have pointed out, a lot of pop music these days is being recorded with a highly constricted (in the direction of LOUD) dynamic range, to the point of frequent clipping.We've been discussing the "loudness wars" in pro audio circles for 10-15 years now. It's a nasty problem and it doesn't appear that it will ever go away. It's sad - the CD medium gives us tremendous dynamic range, yet we use only the top 10db or so.

[QUOTE=hookbill;14041037]Yes Hook, I had the same audio drops on both TWC and
Directv. Forgot to check OTA.

Ben Music

Thanks Ben. I saw it this morning as well.

Anybody else noticing this? I've had the set on WJW for a while now and I'm getting a lot of sound drop offs. OTA, Dish people....Please check in.:)

And I take it from the fact that there was no response that nobody with SARA has been switched to Navigator?
A "Dish person" here. I not only had audio dropouts on FOX 8, I also had severe pixelation. I switched to OTA and there still was some pixelation. The signal strength was varying. Since I live in the shadow of their tower it appears that FOX 8 was having some transmission issues. This used to happen with regularity on WEWS.

QUESTION: What happens if you try to transmit HD signals over RG59 instead of RG6? Will there be any signal at all?
TIA

It's sad - the CD medium gives us tremendous dynamic range, yet we use only the top 10db or so.


There are lots of people who are so deafened by listening to overloud music for extended periods that maybe that top 10 dB is all that they can hear! (except for the subwoofer range that transmits through the feet)

QUESTION: What happens if you try to transmit HD signals over RG59 instead of RG6? Will there be any signal at all?
TIA

In short runs I don't believe there is any real difference. Are you just going coax F to F or are you making Component Video cables?

In short runs I don't believe there is any real difference. Are you just going coax F to F or are you making Component Video cables?

There are a couple issues. One is the the dvd recorder in my bedroom has a built-in digital/QAM tuner. Now it doesn't seem to be picking up the digital stations. This is THE one line in my house that is "older", and I'm not sure that it IS RG6 or not. Now at first you think that the tuner is bad, I have had issues with the digtal signals coming in over the last several months. It is very weak. So I am wondering if even the drop may be bad or outdated. I need to just get Warner out to check the line I guess. I was trying to wait till they get everything settled form the system and what not. BTW, the line going to the bedroom is about 50'. I have 3 othe tvs/tuners that I AM getting the digitals on, but the signals are weak. I've even got a couple amps on the lines and can't get a digital signal at all without them. I subscribe to basic analog service only (channels 2-22). However, I take advantage of the QAM signals to watch the locals in HD.

There are a couple issues. One is the the dvd recorder in my bedroom has a built-in digital/QAM tuner. Now it doesn't seem to be picking up the digital stations. This is THE one line in my house that is "older", and I'm not sure that it IS RG6 or not. Now at first you think that the tuner is bad, I have had issues with the digtal signals coming in over the last several months. It is very weak. So I am wondering if even the drop may be bad or outdated. I need to just get Warner out to check the line I guess. I was trying to wait till they get everything settled form the system and what not. BTW, the line going to the bedroom is about 50'. I have 3 othe tvs/tuners that I AM getting the digitals on, but the signals are weak. I've even got a couple amps on the lines and can't get a digital signal at all without them. I subscribe to basic analog service only (channels 2-22). However, I take advantage of the QAM signals to watch the locals in HD.

The RG-59 that I've used for baseband video in the past was typically only swept to 100mhz, as it's considered to be primarily for baseband video use. It also has MUCH poorer shielding than RG-6. Since the QAMs are up above 550mhz, I'm pretty sure that's your culprit.

I see your points, but I must disagree. Having every major CE mfr competing for cable hardware and software is sorely overdue! Imagen if for the past 20 years we had been able to pick our cable boxes from 50 different mfr's instead of just SA, Motorola, Pace and the few others out there.
.........
Once this tru2way is incorporated into tv's then we will have the choice of built in digital cable ready or buy/rent our own cable box or go satellite. More choices, more options, more competition. With or without tru2way you can still have your Tivo. ;)

I see all your points, and I am all for competition. Getting out of the clutches of Cisco/Mot/Pace will be a god-send for most people. I used to run a Sony 34" Tube on a CableCard and I loved not having a set top box. Adding 2-way communication is a wonderful step forward. I'm just not crazy about the idea of built-in DVR's in my display as Hookbill was suggesting.

I'm just not crazy about the idea of built-in DVR's in my display as Hookbill was suggesting.

I never said that. I don't even know how you got that idea.

What I said was that it will NOT have a DVR. It's just a different technology for communication then what we currently have. If you want a DVR you will still have to buy one, the key to this is that this will work with all DVR's.

The article says it will eliminate boxes. It doesn't say eliminate DVR's. That's where you are getting confused.

Well, if you want a piece of garbage that has limited features and is totally unreliable then go ahead and get a cable DVR. If your smart you will wait unti the new Sony Technology comes out and you won't need a DVR. Supposedly.

........

Or as I said earlier you can just hold off and see what this Sony Technology will do.

Guess I'm just confused as to what you were saying. I apologize.

The RG-59 that I've used for baseband video in the past was typically only swept to 100mhz, as it's considered to be primarily for baseband video use. It also has MUCH poorer shielding than RG-6. Since the QAMs are up above 550mhz, I'm pretty sure that's your culprit.

Do you think that it is possible that the primary "drop" from the street could be RG59? IF that were the case, would I be getting any HD signals at all?... or would they be spuratic and weak? I think I will just finally call TW tomorrow. Of course I already know what the dumb CSR is going to say. "Sir, you are only subscribed to Lifeline Basic. You are not entitles to HD channels. You will need to upgrade your service to digtal and will need to use our STB.":rolleyes: That is when I will have to email a letter to Steve Fry Sr.

Guess I'm just confused as to what you were saying. I apologize.

No need to apologize. I was just taking my usual rip at SA 8300.:) I guess I could see why you were confused though, at that time I thought it was a DVR included thing as well. But I found out later that it wasn't and if you read further down I stated that.