I agree about the plugging/advertising/informing of the the transition to digital. Frankly, I'm tired of hearing about it. If I could go one day without hearing about 1)transition to digital tv 2)Obama/McCain 3)what some stupid idiot put on Utube... I would be one happy camper :D.

Yes, but CSR often get credit for customer retention. So while they may not be telling the CSR's that there will be no broadcast television it doesn't mean that they are discouraging them either.



I realize you have some kind of inside source or may be involved in cable tv directly, but I think this is just as speculative as my statement above is.



Here's where we totally disagree. I have seen On Fox 8 news many times the explanation of the difference between HDTV and Digital television. This link (http://media.myfoxcleveland.com/digitaltv/DTV.html) is on the front page and answers all kinds of questions. In addition they frequently mention this on the news and advice people to go to their website for more info.

WKYC provides this link (http://www.wkyc.com/life/programming/dtv/default.aspx) which discusses antennas and other digital television matters, also on the front page.

WEWS did not have anything that I could find on the front page, but a search will get you some information.

And believe it or not right here (http://www.woio.com/global/Category.asp?c=102239) on WOIO of all places is another link on the front page that has detailed explanation about the change.

Plus I've heard many advertisements about the change, not only on local channels but on CNN and such. While it doesn't discuss antennas, which I agree is an issue it still does talk about the converter box and coupons.

So I really don't understand why you don't think they are doing a good job of informing the public about the transition. It seems to me that they started talking about it even before 2008 got here. I don't know what else they could do.

The media is definitely doing their part in making this whole digital switch known to the public. If people don't do their part in buying the necessary equipment, then it's just their own stupidity. When they see that they aren't getting any channels with their antenna any more, I'm sure they'll wonder what's happening and figure it out. It seems like all the local channels and cable channels have been showing commercials about this. Haven't digital OTA channels been on for like 10 years already?? It's ridiculous how slow this transition has been going and moved back.

As far as the antenna situation goes, I'm sure people will figure that out. I use the indoor HDTVi antenna, which is one of those directional, pointy, triangular shaped antennas with rabbit ears. It works well for an indoor antenna. I recently purchased the new Insignia digital tuner from Best Buy with my $40 coupon and took it up to Ontario Canada last week. I could pick up several stations from the States that were well outside the FCC coverage area maps with my antenna.

Does anyone know about these tuners they sell for around $50?? These seem to perform slightly better than the older models I purchased a few years ago. Here in Akron, I don't have any problems getting 3, 5, 8, 17, 19, 43, 49, 55, 61, and 67. I used to have to adjust the antenna to get all of these.

I don't know if this is true and I haven't tried it myself but I am hearing that Comcast in some areas are having their reps tell people that the only way they will be able to get television after 7/09 is by cable. There will be no more OTA broadcasting.

I'm kind of curious to see if TW is doing the same thing. I thought about sending an email but I think the true test would be to call them. Say something like, "you know, I think with digital tv and all I may just dump cable" and see what they say.

What Time Warner really needs to do is stop telling people they can get cable TV without a box. Start forcing new customers to get digital cable(which is all I see on their commercials). Get all the new customers boxes then they can start upgrading existing subscribers and finally put an end to this analog bulls***.

Or just make the PQ on analog cable even worse than it currently is and customers will be beating down the doors to get a box :D:D

Right now flipping through channels I came across a commercial from the cable industry(?) about digital TV. They also said that you can still use antennas with an upgrade(converter box). Why cable said this, I don't know. But they said it.

Has anyone noticed the DT application WOIO has to increase its power to from 3.5 kW to 10.3 kW and antenna height from 304 meters to 361 meters. Unfortunately, it remains on digital channel 10.

Time Warner Digital Cable>Akron

Flipping through the channels I came across SNL. The PQ looks terrible. The letterbox bars are almost a dark grey looking color instead of the usual black. The difference is obvious with the black sidebars on my TV. It seems like a show issue since the commercials had the normal darker black bars.

For my non-HD TV I cannot wait until they start downgrading the HD/digital signal for SD digital cable. The current analog upconversion looks like s***.

Has anyone noticed the DT application WOIO has to increase its power to from 3.5 kW to 10.3 kW and antenna height from 304 meters to 361 meters. Unfortunately, it remains on digital channel 10.

This is very good news. WOIO-DT drops out occasionally here in Salem at its current antenna height and power levels. At the new power level and antenna height (1114.5 feet above ground level), transmitting on channel 10 becomes an advantage.

WVIZ continues to be an epic failure. Now I hate to admit it but there's a certain Soundstage on right now from my high school years that I might be inclined to throw a few bucks WVIZ way. But since I can't see it HD OTA they won't get a dime from me.
Too bad they won't be HD until AFTER the digital transition, so f**k them.

WVIZ continues to be an epic failure. Now I hate to admit it but there's a certain Soundstage on right now from my high school years that I might be inclined to throw a few bucks WVIZ way. But since I can't see it HD OTA they won't get a dime from me.
Too bad they won't be HD until AFTER the digital transition, so f**k them.

Can you get WNEO-HD? I get WNEO HD and WVIZ on cable plus I was able to pull in WNEO OTA in Akron.

WNEO mops the floor with WVIZ. WNEO broadcasts in 5.1 plus they do not have two worthless subchannels eating their bandwidth(as WVIZ does).

I don't know if this is true and I haven't tried it myself but I am hearing that Comcast in some areas are having their reps tell people that the only way they will be able to get television after 7/09 is by cable. There will be no more OTA broadcasting.

I'm kind of curious to see if TW is doing the same thing. I thought about sending an email but I think the true test would be to call them. Say something like, "you know, I think with digital tv and all I may just dump cable" and see what they say.

Funny, we must have heard this from the same guy - pomerlp - in the Tivo forum , but I don't think there is any truth to it either.

The media is definitely doing their part in making this whole digital switch known to the public. If people don't do their part in buying the necessary equipment, then it's just their own stupidity. When they see that they aren't getting any channels with their antenna any more, I'm sure they'll wonder what's happening and figure it out. It seems like all the local channels and cable channels have been showing commercials about this. Haven't digital OTA channels been on for like 10 years already?? It's ridiculous how slow this transition has been going and moved back.

The media is making the switch known, but I really don't think they're covering the details enough. I've talked to (read: "tested") numerous Best Buy, Radio Shack, and other typical consumer store employees, giving them a wide range of scenarios, and not a single one of them has brought up antenna quality. Even the FCC site just asks "do you have an antenna?". They just tell me I'll need a converter box.

As we've discussed on this forum, getting the right antenna is key for DTV reception.

I have a decent outdoor antenna at my shop in Massillon. We're slightly higher than the average elevation in the area, and the antenna is on a 10' tower on the roof. I can receive the Cleveland analog stations pretty well, at least to the point of being watchable without too much noise. However, digital reception has been shaky at best - the UHF elements on the antenna just aren't up to the task. As an experiment, we moved the antenna to a 30' mast and had a guy stand on the roof and hold the thing (careful balancing required) while we ran some tests - the additional 20 feet of elevation significantly improved digital reception - most of the Cleveland stations came in OK (except WKYC).

I now have 40' of tower ready to be installed to take care of the situation, but I can easily see how a lot of people may not realize there's more to the conversion than just purchasing a box. A lot of outdoor antennas out there were designed to handle primarily VHF, with UHF sort of "tacked on". When you take the VHF-to-UHF conversion into play, plus the lack of anyone suggesting that antennas might need to be upgraded, I can't blame Joe Customer for being completely surprised when he can't pick up any stations come February.

If you don't have a problem with heights (I prefer Terra Firma when possible), now might be a good time to get into the antenna installation business...

I agree about the plugging/advertising/informing of the the transition to digital. Frankly, I'm tired of hearing about it. If I could go one day without hearing about 1)transition to digital tv 2)Obama/McCain 3)what some stupid idiot put on Utube... I would be one happy camper :D.

I'd like to add one other thing. FOX 8 continues to talk about American Idol. Last week they had a story about a former "contestant" getting married. Who cares, and please stop.

So they can't work out an agreement with another company to put up an antenna and it's their fault? The fact is that they finally found an alternative, even though it will take longer. In addition, the local schedule is not an HD simulcast at this point, so the Soundstage show wouldn't have been in HD last night anyway. Once again, that's not WVIZ's fault...

I just looked at the HD schedule and it turns out the Soundstage show will be on the national digital channel this afternoon at 2:00, so it will be available if you get the WVIZ channel... However, my general point is still the same: the channel is doing what it can with what amounts to a shoestring budget.



WVIZ continues to be an epic failure. Now I hate to admit it but there's a certain Soundstage on right now from my high school years that I might be inclined to throw a few bucks WVIZ way. But since I can't see it HD OTA they won't get a dime from me.
Too bad they won't be HD until AFTER the digital transition, so f**k them.

Funny, we must have heard this from the same guy - pomerlp - in the Tivo forum , but I don't think there is any truth to it either.

Right forum, wrong person. Thread was started by The Green Hornet, but you knew that.

Guys let me introduce you to magnani (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4892712#post4892712) who also goes by the name of Sooka on the TiVo Forum. He was has a problem (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4884045#post4884045). You see for some reason he hates me (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4863892#post4863892) so much that almost every (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4831349#post4831349) post he has ever made (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4718445#post4718445) over there is a negative (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4683547#post4683547) comment about me (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4668902#post4668902). He is a stalker of sorts. He has a total of 9 post, 8 of which are negative towards me and one to one of my buddies, brierboy. That's also a negative comment.

Now he goes under the name of "sooka" and he attempts to try to find out what account I am using in the TiVo forum, on this name pomerlp he is dead wrong. He gathers his little evidence and then pm's me with threats like "your going to get what you deserve."

And he's also pretty dumb to think I don't remember who he is and come in here. The proof is all there guys, just look at the links.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/search.php?searchid=3975589

Right forum, wrong person. Thread was started by The Green Hornet, but you knew that.

Guys let me introduce you to magnani (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4892712#post4892712) who also goes by the name of Sooka on the TiVo Forum. He was has a problem (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4884045#post4884045). You see for some reason he hates me (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4863892#post4863892) so much that almost every (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4831349#post4831349) post he has ever made (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4718445#post4718445) over there is a negative (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4683547#post4683547) comment about me (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4668902#post4668902). He is a stalker of sorts. He has a total of 9 post, 8 of which are negative towards me and one to one of my buddies, brierboy. That's also a negative comment.

Now he goes under the name of "sooka" and he attempts to try to find out what account I am using in the TiVo forum, on this name pomerlp he is dead wrong. He gathers his little evidence and then pm's me with threats like "your going to get what you deserve."

And he's also pretty dumb to think I don't remember who he is and come in here. The proof is all there guys, just look at the links.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/search.php?searchid=3975589

I dunno, sounds like he's got some legitimate complaints there :D.
Seriously though, hopefully he doesn't turn into a real stalker :eek:. He sure does seem to have a hard on for you though.
It was probably one little comment you made one time that got under his skin, and now his obsessive-compulsive brain can't let it go.
Don't know about the TiVo forums, but at least here at AVS, if he gets fresh with you, you can just report him.

Yes, but CSR often get credit for customer retention. So while they may not be telling the CSR's that there will be no broadcast television it doesn't mean that they are discouraging them either.


They're not going to go against the ads that the cable company itself is running, regarding the digital transition. They're advertising the same facts that the broadcasters are running.


I realize you have some kind of inside source or may be involved in cable tv directly, but I think this is just as speculative as my statement above is.

You can believe what you wish, Hookbill. I offer my opinions without warranty, but I do have some specific knowledge of the situation.

Here's where we totally disagree. I have seen On Fox 8 news many times the explanation of the difference between HDTV and Digital television. This link (http://media.myfoxcleveland.com/digitaltv/DTV.html) is on the front page and answers all kinds of questions. In addition they frequently mention this on the news and advice people to go to their website for more info.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was referring to those national DTV ads that everyone is running, such as the one with the older gentleman standing in the middle of the desert. The local stations have picked up the ball in the past 6-8 months and placed a lot of good information on their websites, and I commend them for that. However, I still think it's going to be a rude awakening in February when many try to hook up their CECBs for the first time and discover that their existing antenna doesn't cut it.

You can believe what you wish, Hookbill. I offer my opinions without warranty, but I do have some specific knowledge of the situation.

If it appeared that I was saying "I don't believe you" that's not quite what I meant. I recognize you have some insight as I said earlier. No offense was meant.


Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was referring to those national DTV ads that everyone is running, such as the one with the older gentleman standing in the middle of the desert. The local stations have picked up the ball in the past 6-8 months and placed a lot of good information on their websites, and I commend them for that. However, I still think it's going to be a rude awakening in February when many try to hook up their CECBs for the first time and discover that their existing antenna doesn't cut it.

I'm not quite sure which ad you're talking about. Is it the one where it simply says "come Feb.9, 2009 unless you're prepared, you will not have anything?"

If that's the one I thought there was some information on the bottom of the screen. Maybe if your watching stretched on SD you don't see it?

I dunno, sounds like he's got some legitimate complaints there :D.

Hey I didn't say his complaints wern't legit.:D Just obsessive. I mean 9 post and 8 of them are directed at me?


Seriously though, hopefully he doesn't turn into a real stalker :eek:. He sure does seem to have a hard on for you though.
It was probably one little comment you made one time that got under his skin, and now his obsessive-compulsive brain can't let it go.
Don't know about the TiVo forums, but at least here at AVS, if he gets fresh with you, you can just report him.

Oh he certainly does stock me, trust me. I don't see how someone can have the time it takes to track me around the way he does to try and identify me IF I were a member of the TCF under another name which of course I'm not.;)

But he does have the wrong guy this time. He has been right on several occassions but to be honest when I have created an account on the TCF I don't really try to hide my personality and I do repeat comments I make in other post. I noticed that this person was talking about customer service so I assume that since I mentioned over here I was a CSR he thinks I'm that person. Other then that I don't have a clue, but he gave himself away this time.

If it appeared that I was saying "I don't believe you" that's not quite what I meant. I recognize you have some insight as I said earlier. No offense was meant.

No offense taken, Hookbill.


I'm not quite sure which ad you're talking about. Is it the one where it simply says "come Feb.9, 2009 unless you're prepared, you will not have anything?"


That's one of them, yes. My set isn't overscanned so I do see the link to the DTV website. There are similar ads that mention something to the effect that "all you need is the converter box." thsoe ads are so coy that they wind up looking like those pharmaceutical ads that show people walking through the park, swinging on a swing, laughing, and telling the audience to "ask your doctor if XYZ is right for you" without mentioning any specifics at all.

That's one of them, yes. My set isn't overscanned so I do see the link to the DTV website. There are similar ads that mention something to the effect that "all you need is the converter box." thsoe ads are so coy that they wind up looking like those pharmaceutical ads that show people walking through the park, swinging on a swing, laughing, and telling the audience to "ask your doctor if XYZ is right for you" without mentioning any specifics at all.

I will say this about the antenna thing. I have already met a person at work who told me she was not happy about the digital change. She said she's already seen it and it's not that great, mentioned pixelation and sound drop offs only she didn't say it in that way. I knew what she was talking about and thought about explaining some things to her but you know how you can tell when a person has already made up their mind so I didn't get into it with her.

And that, I assume, is where you are coming from when you say how many people are going to be taken back when this change happens. Andrew K mentioned the indoor antenna but what works for him may not work for others.

I can see it on the day of the switch, reporters interviewing angry people and really blowing the whole thing into a huge deal. I do believe however that it won't last very long and people will figure out what to do.

So they can't work out an agreement with another company to put up an antenna and it's their fault?

I joined AVS in 2002. It's been SIX years (soon to be seven years) since WVIZ has been promising "next summer". You get to a point where you have to wonder about the management at WVIZ and whether digital TV was really a priority to them. They spent money on the slick "Ideastream" re-branding, built a new studio downtown ...

nickdawg is correct, WNEO/WEAO gets it right and does a nice job. It's sad that the "flagship" PBS station (WVIZ) in the "big city" lets it's little brother down in Akron kick it's butt in the HD department. :D

I joined AVS in 2002. It's been SIX years (soon to be seven years) since WVIZ has been promising "next summer". You get to a point where you have to wonder about the management at WVIZ and whether digital TV was really a priority to them. They spent money on the slick "Ideastream" re-branding, built a new studio downtown...

They have been working on it all that time; the owners of the tower were making it difficult for them. They've finally given up on that location and entered into an angreement with another local broadcaster to get a good spot on a new tower they're building. It looks like this problem has been resolved, although it will be awhile before they're ready at the new site. Lots of things have to happen first, including a new STL path.

WVIZ=LAME CRAP!! I don't even give them the time of day. Whenever I look at PBS it's always WNEO (channel 10 or 410). It's been that way since I was young(since WNEO ran cartoons and Sesame Street until 6:30pm, longer than WVIZ). And now I prefer WNEO HD since they broadcast in 5.1 and they were the only PBS on cable until last year. I was pretty pissed they wasted the bandwidth on WVIZ before WBNX. WVIZ HD is the EXACT same thing as WNEO HD, only awful-presented in 2.0 stereo. Plus VIZ has TWO bandwidth eating subchannels. The Ohio Channel and something called "PBS World" that just showed up on my cable lineup. Just an overcompressed piece of crap.

</end of pbs rant>

WVIZ=LAME CRAP!! I don't even give them the time of day. Whenever I look at PBS it's always WNEO (channel 10 or 410). It's been that way since I was young(since WNEO ran cartoons and Sesame Street until 6:30pm, longer than WVIZ). And now I prefer WNEO HD since they broadcast in 5.1 and they were the only PBS on cable until last year. I was pretty pissed they wasted the bandwidth on WVIZ before WBNX. WVIZ HD is the EXACT same thing as WNEO HD, only awful-presented in 2.0 stereo. Plus VIZ has TWO bandwidth eating subchannels. The Ohio Channel and something called "PBS World" that just showed up on my cable lineup. Just an overcompressed piece of crap.

</end of pbs rant>

Dontcha just hate it when he's right!:D:D

Yes, it is very disappointing to see something that might like to watch on PBS and no DD5.1 as well. I can't comment on pq since I can't compare it with WNEO but I'm sure dawg is right. This time.;)

WVIZ=LAME CRAP!! I don't even give them the time of day. Whenever I look at PBS it's always WNEO (channel 10 or 410). It's been that way since I was young(since WNEO ran cartoons and Sesame Street until 6:30pm, longer than WVIZ). And now I prefer WNEO HD since they broadcast in 5.1 and they were the only PBS on cable until last year. I was pretty pissed they wasted the bandwidth on WVIZ before WBNX. WVIZ HD is the EXACT same thing as WNEO HD, only awful-presented in 2.0 stereo. Plus VIZ has TWO bandwidth eating subchannels. The Ohio Channel and something called "PBS World" that just showed up on my cable lineup. Just an overcompressed piece of crap.

</end of pbs rant>

It's nice living out here in the boonies! I receive The digital broadcasts of WNEO, WEAO, WQED (Pittsburgh) and WOUC (Cambridge). If one of 'em is having a technical problem, I just swing the antenna around to pick up one of the others.

...but I'm sure dawg is right. This time.;)

Have you two ever met each other in person? Just wondering. ;)

It looks like this problem has been resolved, although it will be awhile before they're ready at the new site. Lots of things have to happen first, including a new STL path.

Big difference here: As opposed to basically fighting tooth and nail with the owner of the tower where their analog signal is, WVIZ will have cooperation from WKYC at the start this time.

I'm sure they'll have it in hand before 2/17/09, which is really the only date that counts in this.

Dontcha just hate it when he's right!:D:D

Yes, it is very disappointing to see something that might like to watch on PBS and no DD5.1 as well. I can't comment on pq since I can't compare it with WNEO but I'm sure dawg is right. This time.;)

Why can't you compare? Tivo doesn't get WNEO? ;)

Several times I've tuned in to WVIZ and just found a black screen with just the bug on. Seen this on SD too.

Why can't you compare? Tivo doesn't get WNEO? ;).

nickdawg, I'm going to make this so easy that maybe even you can follow the directions. Go to www.zap2it.com. Copy and paste if typing is difficult. Then when you get there click on change my location. Type 44202. It will give you the lineups available for this area.

You will then see that we do not get WNEO HD. At one time it was on our guide but we still didn't get it. Never have.

Now do you get it?:p:rolleyes:

Oh and one more thing. You've been taking some shots at my TiVo and I've been letting it go do to popular demand. However I'm about tired of it so the next time you do it, prepare for me to onload on you.

By the way you still loving that Navigator software? Like the way it lets you pick first run only? What? It doesn't do that? Passport did, didn't it? And how about those great program descriptions you were talking about.

Well at least now they've enabled the feature that allows you to acknowledge programs that you like by giving the thumbs up or down so your DVR can record on it's own what it thinks you might like.

Oh, come on! TiVo's had that since it was first invented around 1998!

Hey and that wishlist feature they added hows that working? Oh, I'm sorry you don't have that do you? Well at least you can program from the internet!

Now come on you mean you can't do that either? Crap! Well at least their is podcast and you can download to your computer for shows to watch on other devices like i-pod and such.

Oh God, you can't do that either! And you can't play your music from your computer to your amplifier with Navigator?

And of course since TW thinks like you they have kids zone and other types of guru guides. Wait what's that you say? You don't have that either?

How about showing digital photos from your computer? Oh that's right you can't do ANYTHING with the computer!

Well you do get those precious VOD's which you can get off a regular box anyway. That's a huge plus.:rolleyes:

Whoops, looks like I went off on your ass anyway. I apologize to the other members of the forum. I'll try to get it back under control again.

I can't stop laughing right now... :D

I would laugh, but I'm too busy just shaking my head...:confused:

I can't stop laughing right now... :D

I'm well aware of what features my box has as well as Tivo. I don't need all those features and they did not justify the $900 price tag(when I first looked at Tivo).

I can do whatever I want with my computer. My HDTV set has a RGB computer input(makes my TV a large computer monitor).

Plus I have the headphone to L/R audio cable so I can plug my IPOD into an extra input on my surround system.

As far as pictures, I can plug in the video output of my camera into the side AUX input. Or I can plug the USB cable directly into my TV and make a slideshow. Or I can organize and arrange the pictures on my computer and connect that to the TV.

And yes, Navigator does have First Run recording. I set it up to record my summer cable shows(Rescue Me, In Plain Sight, Burn Notice) and it only records the first run on its regular night.

And no my DVR doesn't have a mind of its own recording whatever it wants. I'd be pretty scared if it did that. THE MACHINES ARE TAKING OVER!!! No online scheduling or thumbs up/down. Again, I do not need that. If I hate a show I give it the middle finger and flip the channel. :D

Also, no podcasting. Again, don't need it. Why would I want to watch my shows on a ~2 inch screen when I have a 50 inch in my living room?

You really "whooped" me. ;) :D:D

As far as WNEO, I didn't know some areas didn't have it. I thought it was added with the channel realignment. Doesn't make sense.

I would laugh, but I'm too busy just shaking my head...:confused:

Sorry jtschrene. He has been pushing my buttons a bit and a kind of lost it.

And yes, Navigator does have First Run recording. I set it up to record my summer cable shows(Rescue Me, In Plain Sight, Burn Notice) and it only records the first run on its regular night.

I thought you said it didn't. TiVo will find another showing if there is a conflict with other recordings. That IMHO is a huge difference. I also know you wern't happy with the descriptions and you had several other complaints that you've gotten mighty quiet about.

If you set Navigator to record all however, that's exactly what it will do. So if the same episode shows up twice on the same night it will record it every time it is shown. TiVo has a 28 day rule and will not record an episode when set in that mode that has already been recorded

And no my DVR doesn't have a mind of its own recording whatever it wants. I'd be pretty scared if it did that. THE MACHINES ARE TAKING OVER!!! No online scheduling or thumbs up/down. Again, I do not need that. If I hate a show I give it the middle finger and flip the channel. :D


ROFLOL. I agree, I don't use that feature myself but I threw that in there just because I wanted to make sure you got the whole picture. And I totally agree with your point about spending money unnecessarily however I do wish you'd stop saying 900.00, it's not even half that much and it truly does pay for itself when you take it the cost of rental and TW's own service fees. But on line scheduling is nice, ask any D* owner.

Now if you quit taking pot shots at me I promise not to go on a rant again. But really guys he does take little shots at me and in the famous words of Popeye, "Olive, I's can stands what I's cans stands, and I can't stands anymore.":)

Go to www.zap2it.com. Copy and paste if typing is difficult. Then when you get there click on change my location. Type 44202. It will give you the lineups available for this area.I tried it and every version of TW in NEO showed up (Macedonia, Macedonia rebuild, etc.) Do customers know if they are hooked to the "rebuild"?

BTW: You should not get WNEO-DT, but you better be getting WEAO-DT.

I tried it and every version of TW in NEO showed up (Macedonia, Macedonia rebuild, etc.) Do customers know if they are hooked to the "rebuild"?

BTW: You should not get WNEO-DT, but you better be getting WEAO-DT.

True, but my system is not in Macedonia Rebuild it is in Cleveland Rebuild. Macedonia does not come up as a choice as I live in Geauga County.

I chose Cleveland Digital rebuild, but Franklin was at one time one of my choices at one time. I think I will try a channel rescan and see if I can still get Franklin. If I can then I can get WNEO HD.

Yes, we know about the rebuild. Look at Cleveland Digital and you will see that we don't get WNEO HD.

I ran guided set up choosing Franklin Digital. However when you get the test stations they don't match up so I am stuck with WVIZ.

I suppose it goes by head end so those of us in the Cleveland Digital Rebuild are stuck.

Channel 34 is MTV on the Franklin Digital, however I get CNN on that channel.

I have the former Adelphia realigned lineup that shows up in Zap2It's "Cleveland rebuild" selection.

We've never had WNEO/WEAO's HD feed, even though it was added to the printed lineup almost immediately back when TWC took over Adelphia.

(BTW, I assume it'd technically be WEAO-DT, since WNEO-DT doesn't really reach anywhere near Cleveland.)

I suspect TWC was interested in adding it, but held back because WEAO's HD feed is the same 24/7 PBS HD feed already carried by WVIZ, which is already on the former Adelphia systems.

It is my understanding that PBS plans to begin their full HD/SD main feed later this year and at that time WNEO and WEAO will make that their primary program feed with the PBS and local programming integrated on 45.1 and 49.1. My guess is TWC will then carry both local PBS stations in Cleveland, as their programming will be different in most dayparts. 45.2 and 49.2 would eventually become another programming stream (also not duplicating 25) It is too bad that TWC isn't consistent throughout their systems especially since, as has been noted above, the audio from WEAO is far better (5.1) than WVIZ's.

My wife and I decided to go back to Time Warner for our Cable as our Dish Network contract expires this month (we already have digital phone and Roadrunner)..The TWC Customer service rep quoted us about $127 a month plus tax for what we have now plus one HD DVR in our bedroom and standard (no box) for 2 other TV's..My main question is, What is TWC's HD DVR Box like?..How many hours can it record, picture quality, etc..We figure to save $70-$75 a month going this route..Thanks for any response..

My wife and I decided to go back to Time Warner for our Cable as our Dish Network contract expires this month (we already have digital phone and Roadrunner)..The TWC Customer service rep quoted us about $127 a month plus tax for what we have now plus one HD DVR in our bedroom and standard (no box) for 2 other TV's..My main question is, What is TWC's HD DVR Box like?..How many hours can it record, picture quality, etc..We figure to save $70-$75 a month going this route..Thanks for any response..

I wouldn't do that if I were you. You're "savings" will only be for 1 year, that is not a permanent amount and when it goes up you will freak out. In addition if you're use to Dish's DVR when you see what TW offers, you will not be happy at all.

It has 20 hours HD time and you can add an eSATA to it. But I'm warning you, you will get much less HD and a very inferior DVR. No on line programing. Depending on where you live you may not even be able to chose first run only. Search features are horrible. If you are able to pick first run only and there is a conflict it will not look for another episode. It's the bottom line of all DVR's. And unless you plan on getting a TiVo HD which will cost more money you won't have anything as nice as what you have now.

I am a TW customer and the only reason I don't have satellite is because I don't have a clean line of site. The first 100 channels are not digital, they are analog and the locals are 3, 5, 8, 19 are analog upgraded to digital and are terrible.

I use a TiVo S3 and TiVo HD for my DVR, but I have to pay for that service but it's at least reliable.

But if you're looking just to save money, don't be fooled by TW. In the long run it will cost you more.

Thanks for the response:
I'm paying 94.04 a month now for just Digital Phone and Roadrunner (plus 106 or so for Dish) Packaged with Cable the $127 quote should be regular price or close to it it seems..Good thing is, I wont be on a contract..I figured the HDDVR wouldnt be as good as Dish..I am in "Legacy" Canton area..I've had TWC before, just not Their HD box..

Thanks for the response:
I'm paying 94.04 a month now for just Digital Phone and Roadrunner (plus 106 or so for Dish) Packaged with Cable the $127 quote should be regular price or close to it it seems..Good thing is, I wont be on a contract..I figured the HDDVR wouldnt be as good as Dish..I am in "Legacy" Canton area..I've had TWC before, just not Their HD box..

Yeah, you can do better than that. We pay just over 100 dollars a month for regular cable (1 SD box, 1 HD DVR, and 1 HD non-DVR), and Road Runner Turbo (up to 12 megs down). I didn't want to get the Time Warner phone so we got the unlimited Vonage for $25/mth and it has worked great.

When your promotional pricing is over (after a year or whatnot), call them back and ask to get the deal again, or something similar. If the rep says no (which they have never done for me), threaten to move back to Dish, they will find something for you...

Amherst area, Time Warner: Is anybody else having trouble receiving WBNX HD(407) and Cavaliers HD(436)?

Big difference here: As opposed to basically fighting tooth and nail with the owner of the tower where their analog signal is, WVIZ will have cooperation from WKYC at the start this time.

I'm sure they'll have it in hand before 2/17/09, which is really the only date that counts in this.

IIRC, because of all their problems WVIZ was granted a waiver to go past the Feb 2009 deadline... I'm really not expecting to see WVIZ HD OTA in February.

Multichannel News is running an article about TWC Navigator issues...


http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6576530.html?q=navigator

I don't use one but I have seen others are also not happy.

From WVIZ's recently filed maximization application:


Antenna System and Tower
WVIZ-DT proposes to use a new Dielectric TFU-10GTH-R C170 directional antenna
(specifications attached hereto as Exhibit 1a – Exhibit 1d) which will be part of a new topmounted
WVIZ/WKYC antenna stack that will take the place of the existing WKYC Channel 3
analog antenna. The antenna stack will be placed on the tower (ASR#1013919) at the
coordinates specified above. The overall height of the structure will remain the same (595m
AMSL, with appurtenances) and the WVIZ antenna will have a center of radiation of 590.4m
AMSL (with a calculated HAAT of 336.9m).
Coverage
The entire principal community of Cleveland, OH is well within the predicted F(50,90)
48 dBu contour based on the proposed 150 kW ERP.

Interesting... stack with WKYC... both top-mount antennas... new pattern pulls the signal in some from the south and pushes out some to the east.

No indication that I saw about extending past the Feb 2009 deadline, except for the boilerplate from the engineering consultant about the Canadian issues/specs that are, at best, ambiguous.

IIRC, because of all their problems WVIZ was granted a waiver to go past the Feb 2009 deadline... I'm really not expecting to see WVIZ HD OTA in February.

But things have changed...WVIZ is no longer fighting with WNCX/CBS at the old analog site in North Royalton. They're putting a new antenna up on a tower they're building with WKYC, which is a partner with them - not fighting them :)

One would have to assume that both WKYC and WVIZ will be up by 2/17/09, weather and other construction issues permitting, or shortly thereafter (Spring?). I think both have waivers, but it sounds to me like it's "just in case".

I saw this on Frank Macek's blog:

http://www.wkyc.com/weblog/directors_cut/2008/05/directors-alert-wviz-to-build-on-wkycs.html

But things have changed...WVIZ is no longer fighting with WNCX/CBS at the old analog site in North Royalton. They're putting a new antenna up on a tower they're building with WKYC, which is a partner with them - not fighting them :)

One would have to assume that both WKYC and WVIZ will be up by 2/17/09, weather and other construction issues permitting, or shortly thereafter (Spring?). I think both have waivers, but it sounds to me like it's "just in case".

I saw this on Frank Macek's blog:

http://www.wkyc.com/weblog/directors_cut/2008/05/directors-alert-wviz-to-build-on-wkycs.html

Inundated... I am curious to the location of the waivers... not doubting, would like to see their wording.

My wife and I decided to go back to Time Warner for our Cable as our Dish Network contract expires this month (we already have digital phone and Roadrunner)..The TWC Customer service rep quoted us about $127 a month plus tax for what we have now plus one HD DVR in our bedroom and standard (no box) for 2 other TV's..My main question is, What is TWC's HD DVR Box like?..How many hours can it record, picture quality, etc..We figure to save $70-$75 a month going this route..Thanks for any response..

Tim, I've used TW's HD-DVRs in the past and I've had no trouble with them. They won't do the online programming feature but that doesn't matter to me. It does do their interactive program guide, and because it's a two way device, it supports impulse PPV as well as other features coming down the road. And there's no capital outlay, either up front or if it breaks.

In terms of rates, the only way to know for sure what your rate will be in 12 months is to ask them! We can all speculate till the cows come home, but that won't answer your question with any certainty.

Enjoy your service. I think you've made a good choice.

I decided to search the FCC website for any updates on construction permits and applications for OTA channels, and I noticed a few new listings I hadn't seen since last time I checked. It seems like most local channels are working on solving any reception issues. Once the transition is complete, any problems should be minimal. Here is what the site shows...

8 WJW 30 kW, 342 m
10 WOIO 10.3 kW, 361 m
15 WEWS 1000 kW, 310 m
17 WKYC 868 kW, 307.1 m
20 WFMJ 460 kW, 295 m
23 WVPX 1000 kW, 301 m
26 WVIZ 150 kW, 336.9 m
28 WUAB 200 kW, 337 m
30 WBNX 1000 kW, 356 m
34 WQHS 525 kW, 333.8 m
36 WYTV 1000 kW, 177 m
39 WDLI 200 kW, 292 m
41 WKBN 700 kW, 418 m
45 WNEO 500 kW, 253 m
47 WOAC 1000 kW, 134 m
50 WEAO 250 kW, 305 m

Thanks for the response:
I'm paying 94.04 a month now for just Digital Phone and Roadrunner (plus 106 or so for Dish) Packaged with Cable the $127 quote should be regular price or close to it it seems..Good thing is, I wont be on a contract..I figured the HDDVR wouldnt be as good as Dish..I am in "Legacy" Canton area..I've had TWC before, just not Their HD box..

TW internet phone is a rip off too. I use Vonage. I pay 15.99 plus the usual extra, comes out to around 19.99. For that I get 500 outgoing calls. The most I've ever used is 250. 800,866, etc. are free calls. Incoming calls are free. So is caller ID and voice mail. And calling your voice mail doesn't run any higher either. And they have the same 911 service as line phones.

If you call out more then that then you can get the unlimited package for 25.99. Still cheaper then Time Warner. And if your internet or power does go down you can set it to forward to your cell phone.

Time Warner sucks. All cable companies suck.

Signed,

hookbill---I'm an equal oppertunity cable hater.:)

My wife and I decided to go back to Time Warner for our Cable as our Dish Network contract expires this month (we already have digital phone and Roadrunner)..The TWC Customer service rep quoted us about $127 a month plus tax for what we have now plus one HD DVR in our bedroom and standard (no box) for 2 other TV's..My main question is, What is TWC's HD DVR Box like?..How many hours can it record, picture quality, etc..We figure to save $70-$75 a month going this route..Thanks for any response..

Disregard Mr. Hookbill on the Time Warner DVR. He's just a Tivo fanboy and he has past issues with TW and their equipment.

The DVR really isn't that bad. You'll probably have the new Navigator software9if you live in a legacy Time Warner area). It's not as great as the older firmware they used before, but Navigator opens the door for SDV and many new HD channel additions. We already have SDV test channels in the 900s.

The DVR records about 20 hours HD or 90 hours SD. If you have the 8300HD model DVR there is the option to add an external hard drive.

Picture quality is OK. Some of the channels look a bit overcompressed, but that's due to their bandwidth limitations. Also, if you live in a legacy area(Akron definately, maybe Canton[I'm not sure]) ALL of your channels will be digital on TVs with settop boxes(even local SD and channels that used to be under 100!).

Hope this helped.

......Time Warner sucks. All cable companies suck.

Signed,

hookbill---I'm an equal oppertunity cable hater.:)

LOL :D

A wise man told me many years ago describing the difference between providers:
"all cell phone and cable tv companies suck, the only difference is some suck less than others"

Disregard Mr. Hookbill on the Time Warner DVR. He's just a Tivo fanboy and he has past issues with TW and their equipment.



True I like TiVo but that wasn't the question. I wasn't comparing TiVo with the SA 8300. I'm comparing Dish's DVR which is so superior to TW I think in all fairness that the person who inquired should know.

And as nickdawg points out I have had issues with their DVR, not only me but many, many others in just getting it to properly record. I didn't even bring that up but since you did I will say that it not only did not record when it was suppose to, it had partial recordings for unknown reasons. It was like a roll of the dice getting the thing to work and I went through 3 different units and had the same problem each time.

In all fairness I didn't mention that in my critique of the SA 8300 but since you opened the door......

Sorry that's what I meant when I said that; I do have a service call set up for Monday (that I will be there for), and I mentioned that just my wife was there on Friday for the install, and she didn't watch him.

For those of you following along, this tech actually did show up on time (I think I've only had them show up on time one other time out of 3 or so, and just plain not show up once). After he fumbled around with my harmony remote for a while, I helped him out. He wasn't really a friendly guy, but I wanted him to hurry up. He hooked up his meter to the main line coming into the house in the basement. I asked him how the signal was, and he said snidely, "I'll let you know in a minute sir." He went out to the pole, came back in, and never told me how the signal was.

He did replace all the connectors at the splitter in the basement, made sure channels 3 and 8 came in, and proceeded to leave. I asked him what was wrong, he said the wrong trap was put on. Wow, my dislike for this company grows every day...

Anyway idiot installer's problem has now been fixed, and my wife is happy with her 10 or so watchable channels, and I'm happy with my locals in HD. I guess the signal was ok...

In response to the chatter about the DTV transition, and informing consumers. I too am annoyed at the constant scrolling, and constant commercials about it. I think that the average consumer is indeed aware that a change is happening, but many don't seem to know exactly how to prepare for it. My in-laws saw the big ol' VHF antenna on my roof the other week when we were moving in, and commented about how that won't be any good in Feb. I said, no, the antenna will work fine with my main tv, because it was the correct (atsc) tuner, and my other tvs will work fine with that antenna when I get "the box." They were like, "oh yeah, oh yeah."

I was checking out the big stack of magnavox CECB's at walmart the other day, and a customer started drilling me about it, asking me if that's all he needs for this transition. I told him if he has cable or satellite for all his tv's he'll be fine, if he uses an antenna, then yes, you'll need one. He started going off on how stupid it was. He wasn't even that old, I can't imagine how bad it will be for the elderly that just want their tv to keep working how it does now.

For those of you following along, this tech actually did show up on time (I think I've only had them show up on time one other time out of 3 or so, and just plain not show up once). After he fumbled around with my harmony remote for a while, I helped him out. He wasn't really a friendly guy, but I wanted him to hurry up. He hooked up his meter to the main line coming into the house in the basement. I asked him how the signal was, and he said snidely, "I'll let you know in a minute sir." He went out to the pole, came back in, and never told me how the signal was.

Usually they ask for the cable remote. I'm surprised the guy even attempted to use the Harmony. And I hope you learned your lesson, after all he is "Cable Guy" - do not question him!:rolleyes:

He did replace all the connectors at the splitter in the basement, made sure channels 3 and 8 came in, and proceeded to leave. I asked him what was wrong, he said the wrong trap was put on. Wow, my dislike for this company grows every day...

If you have any splitters that are not TW's then they will replace them. Doesn't matter if it's brand new and better. Standard operating procedures.

Anyway idiot installer's problem has now been fixed, and my wife is happy with her 10 or so watchable channels, and I'm happy with my locals in HD. I guess the signal was ok...

Tim Lones, are you paying attention?

Inundated... I am curious to the location of the waivers... not doubting, would like to see their wording.

I said "I think", which means I thought I remember seeing them somewhere. Maybe I saw the stations talking about asking for waivers due to the winter season.

Anyway, to me, at least, based on the information on the WKYC blog, it sounds like they expect to be up with both WKYC-DT and WVIZ-DT sometime before 2/17/09.

In the "this may not mean anything" department, WVIZ-DT - which already has the CP for a 170KW DT 26 facility with WKYC - just filed a new CP application that drops that to 150KW.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101251005&formid=340&fac_num=18753

The attached engineering statement doesn't seem to show it does much to affect coverage.
I'm not sure why they had to do that.

Yes, I understand. I was curious as to if you had a document because, in my business, I was interested in what made the FCC allow a waiver. Just curious.
At this point, anything the FCC does wouldn't surprise me!

I find that the maps posted on the FCC site fall short of the detail that more sophisticated mapping does... the new directional antenna may push the signal away from a sparse population area into a denser area, or the power savings for the lower ERP may be significant enough over the long run to merit. Monthly electric bills for 170 kW site could be about $7500/mo. and growing. Who knows..

I find that the maps posted on the FCC site fall short of the detail that more sophisticated mapping does... the new directional antenna may push the signal away from a sparse population area into a denser area, or the power savings for the lower ERP may be significant enough over the long run to merit. Monthly electric bills for 170 kW site could be about $7500/mo. and growing. Who knows..

Go to http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/, TV Query and input WVIZ. Look at the two applications (Application List). In the engineering exhibits, they show the Dielectric Azimuth pattern for the 170 kW antenna and for the 150 kW antenna. The 170 kW is a peanut-shaped pattern. The other is "rounder"... still protecting Canada.

My wife and I decided to go back to Time Warner for our Cable as our Dish Network contract expires this month (we already have digital phone and Roadrunner)..The TWC Customer service rep quoted us about $127 a month plus tax for what we have now plus one HD DVR in our bedroom and standard (no box) for 2 other TV's..My main question is, What is TWC's HD DVR Box like?..How many hours can it record, picture quality, etc..We figure to save $70-$75 a month going this route..Thanks for any response..
I hope you reconsider. If you have a 622 or 722 no other DVR (with the possible exception of Hook's favorite) will satisfy. I just got my 622 after suffering through 10 different 921's. TiVO helped get the 921 off the streets by their lawsuit against Dish. Anyway IMNSHO the 622 rocks!

In the end you have to compare what you have now with E* to what you'll get with TWC. Keep in mind the E* equipment has an OTA tuner to get OOM stations that cover your area (in your location that can be quite interesting). The HD locals from E* are excellent (however I'm not a fan of the SD locals, but the OTA tuner makes up for that too). About the only thing I watch from the SD LIL feeds is WVIZ. I get WEAO-HD & SD OTA just fine.

If you leave for "the dark side" I'll miss you over at DBS Talk.

In the "this may not mean anything" department, WVIZ-DT - which already has the CP for a 170KW DT 26 facility with WKYC - just filed a new CP application that drops that to 150KW.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101251005&formid=340&fac_num=18753

The attached engineering statement doesn't seem to show it does much to affect coverage.
I'm not sure why they had to do that.

Click on the link labeled "Service Contour Map (41 dBu)", and compare the coverage maps between the 170 kW and 150 kW transmitters. You'll notice that the 150 kW transmitter has a much larger coverage. I'm not sure why. Can anyone figure this out? What seems strange is that the signal travels further in every direction, despite the fact that it's lower power. So I don't see how they're focusing the power from one direction to another.

They want to employ a new directional pattern which is much less directional (as already said, protecting Canada while expanding coverage in the US is the goal). Likely, there is a specific agreement with the Canadian government which says something to the effect of "WVIZ must only put this much power in this direction" and that may have capped their power.

- Trip

They want to employ a new directional pattern which is much less directional (as already said, protecting Canada while expanding coverage in the US is the goal). Likely, there is a specific agreement with the Canadian government which says something to the effect of "WVIZ must only put this much power in this direction" and that may have capped their power.

- Trip

Exactly....

Yes, I understand. I was curious as to if you had a document because, in my business, I was interested in what made the FCC allow a waiver. Just curious.
At this point, anything the FCC does wouldn't surprise me!

I would have to go back and dig through the WKYC filing, but I THINK they indicated in their Transition Report (filed this Feb.) that they may later ask for a waiver if construction issues/winter/whatever get in the way...and the waiver would basically mean that WKYC-DT would still be on DT 2 until the new facility is up on DT 17.

I think I recall them saying that might be needed until mid-2009. It may just be a backstop because of the weather/winter issues through the transition date.

That's only a vague memory, and it's late, and I'm tired...so feel free to traipse through the WKYC filings to find that. :D

They want to employ a new directional pattern which is much less directional (as already said, protecting Canada while expanding coverage in the US is the goal).

Shoulda figured it was a Canadian issue. :D Heck, look at what WBNX-DT 30 had to go through even to get on the air!

I saw the patterns clevemkt talked about, and I guess I was paying more attention to the U.S. side of the proposed WVIZ-DT service area. It looked like it pushed a little further east (towards Warren) as the biggest change, which should have indicated (to me) a Canadian problem on the other end.

OK, I get it now...

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=618132

It looks like WKYC is planning to file for an STA in August to stay on DT 2 post-transition, if it needs to do so due to Canadian coordination issues with DT 17. The weather's mentioned because they estimate it'd take about 8 months to order and install the new antenna once the Canadian coordination issues are clear, and that could push the date past 2/17.

But their DT 2 facility would be on at the transition (until the new antenna is up), which would NOT be good news considering how hard that signal is to pick up.

I think I have it, now! Thanks to Trip and his RabbitEars for the easy link.

Hope this is the right forum to ask this question. I live along the Route 422 corridor in Geauga County, and receive all the Digital Channel very strong with the exception of Fox 8.

Antenna is about 1 year old, descent size.

Channel 3 usually about 95%
Channel 5 usually about 92%
Channel 8 usually about 60%
Channel 19 usually about 98%
Channel 43 usually about 85%

All transmitters are about 275 degrees to 279 degrees toward the west from our house. Some trees, since its only one channel that is "weak" I was wondering if its Fox 8 themselves or others in the area get the same "readings"

Thanks
Steve

OK, I get it now...

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=618132

It looks like WKYC is planning to file for an STA in August to stay on DT 2 post-transition, if it needs to do so due to Canadian coordination issues with DT 17. The weather's mentioned because they estimate it'd take about 8 months to order and install the new antenna once the Canadian coordination issues are clear, and that could push the date past 2/17.

But their DT 2 facility would be on at the transition (until the new antenna is up), which would NOT be good news considering how hard that signal is to pick up.

I think I have it, now! Thanks to Trip and his RabbitEars for the easy link.

Doh! I should have thought about the 387 filings. FYI, the FCC has requested that a new one be filed next Friday.

WDLI is asking to move (http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520031430) from DT 39 to DT 49! (Thanks to Trip's RabbitEars (http://www.rabbitears.info/chchg.php) for the heads up...)

(Of course, WEAO's analog will sign off there at the transition, as they're staying on 50.)

Hope this is the right forum to ask this question. I live along the Route 422 corridor in Geauga County, and receive all the Digital Channel very strong with the exception of Fox 8.

Antenna is about 1 year old, descent size.

Channel 3 usually about 95%
Channel 5 usually about 92%
Channel 8 usually about 60%
Channel 19 usually about 98%
Channel 43 usually about 85%

All transmitters are about 275 degrees to 279 degrees toward the west from our house. Some trees, since its only one channel that is "weak" I was wondering if its Fox 8 themselves or others in the area get the same "readings"

Thanks
Steve
Judging by your readings it appears that your antenna is better at VHF (3 & 19) than UHF and/or you are aim favors the northern most towers (3, 19, 55 & 61 which are all along Ridgewood Dr. between Broadview & State). BTW: you did not give a reading for 55, which is on top of WJW's current DT frequency (30/31).

Try tweaking your antenna a little bit south of where you are. WJW is farther south than the rest from your POV. Also, if you are using a compass you have to take magnetic declination into account (subtracting or adding {I can't recall if it's + or -} almost 7 degrees from a listed reading to compensate for the difference between true north and magnetic north form NE Ohio).

To give you another way of looking at it, WJW is at the corner of Pleasant Valley & State Roads. Pleasant Valley, Alexander & Pettibone Roads are essentially the same road (and nearly straight most of the way). If you are south of Pettibone all the towers will be a little bit north of due west, OTOH if you are north of Pettibone WEWS would be just about due west with WJW a tiny bit south of that. The rule of thumb is to tweak on your weakest signal and hope that the stronger ones still come in fine.

If this does not help than there may be an obstruction. WJW has a strong signal especially out east. I have family just across the border in PA that watch the analog WJW like a local station (their own DMA stations come in lousy due to terrain obstructions). While WJW-DT had some sporadic problems lately I believe they are back up to full power. (I saw several CEI trucks & the head engineer's car out at the transmitter a couple of weeks ago which coincided with problems I had with their signal - I live only .8 of a mile from WJW so if I had a problem with their signal everybody else did too)

As always YMMV. Best of luck!

If I remember correctly channel 8.1 is broadcasting on vhf right now correct?

The reason I ask is my wife insist on putting WJW on in the bird room and everytime I go in there it's breaking up. Of course I just have regular rabbit ears.

Do you guys think that if I invest in one of those different indoor antennas that will help?

If I remember correctly channel 8.1 is broadcasting on vhs right now correct?

VHS tape? :D

No, WJW-DT isn't on VHF yet. They're on UHF 31 until the transition next year, when they camp out digitally on their current channel 8.

VHS tape? :D

No, WJW-DT isn't on VHF yet. They're on UHF 31 until the transition next year, when they camp out digitally on their current channel 8.

Have you ever heard somebody on the phone giving you a combination of numbers and letters? F and S can sound very similar.

OK, that's a terrible argument but it's the best I can do.:o

The only digital VHF signals in Cleveland are WKYC on ch 2 and WOIO on ch 10. Only one of the above have the good sense to move to a UHF channel.

When WJW goes digital on VHF 8 it should be an easy signal to pick up, as there are no interfering stations on that channel in nearby markets unlike VHF 10.

I've noticed that my HD, which I receive by cable is a little behind my SD OTA.

I'm pretty sure it's because it comes through the cable that there is a delay, but I am curious. Does anyone have a OTA converter and a HDTV OTA? Do you have any delay?

VHS tape? :D

No, WJW-DT isn't on VHF yet. They're on UHF 31 until the transition next year, when they camp out digitally on their current channel 8.

It's like WJW is committing TV suicide. Why the hell would they want to be VHF? WKYC and WOIO were unlucky and were stuck there. WKYC was lucky enough to get to move.

It really wouldn't affect me since I don't watch FOX that much anyway.

I've noticed that my HD, which I receive by cable is a little behind my SD OTA.

I'm pretty sure it's because it comes through the cable that there is a delay, but I am curious. Does anyone have a OTA converter and a HDTV OTA? Do you have any delay?

Digital cable signals will always be a little bit delayed from the same signal OTA. The digital path is significantly longer, not to mention the fact that the signal has to be transmogrified from 8VSB to QAM.

On a similar thought, I've seen a row of identical HD sets that show slight differences in video processing delay from set to set while showing the same program. That was a surprise. The difference was almost 1/2 second. Are the CPU clock speeds that much different from set to set?

It's like WJW is committing TV suicide. Why the hell would they want to be VHF? WKYC and WOIO were unlucky and were stuck there. WKYC was lucky enough to get to move.

High-VHF (7-13) isn't that bad. WOIO has other problems besides being on high-VHF, like the Canadian analog 10. I'm willing to bet that WJW's DT 8 won't be as much a problem as WOIO's DT 10.

On a similar thought, I've seen a row of identical HD sets that show slight differences in video processing delay from set to set while showing the same program. That was a surprise. The difference was almost 1/2 second. Are the CPU clock speeds that much different from set to set?

Now when you say "identical" are you referring to exact same model, size of set etc?

For example Bravia has been calling itself "the official HD television of MLB with a "blazing response time of 8ms", however my 37LG30 out blazes that by 3ms (5ms). So that could be what you are seeing.

Now when you say "identical" are you referring to exact same model, size of set etc?

For example Bravia has been calling itself "the official HD television of MLB with a "blazing response time of 8ms", however my 37LG30 out blazes that by 3ms (5ms). So that could be what you are seeing.

Yes, identical models, sizes, even the same firmware revision. These were Toshiba Regza HL37 or HL42 sets if I recall. While the differences in video delay between units was only in the half-second range, that's still 15 frames, and that's significant for sets that should be identical.

Noticed a little glitch Thursday night, and it's still there... WNEO-DT is supposed to be on channel 410, but I'm getting some PPV preview channel instead on my Tivo. Unfortunately, I can't tune this channel on my 8500, since the Tivo is the only HD box I have. Any ideas? TWC was useless when I called them tonight... I explained the problem to them, and his response was "410 is WNEO PBS".

I think a guy around the corner from me has an HD set and TWC - maybe I'll ask him if he can get 410...

I reran Guided Setup on my TiVo S2 tonight...because it kept bugging me that the "Time Warner City of Cleveland" lineup was not 100% correct for where I am.

It isn't THAT far off, but some of the channels in the 20's were different. I hadn't really noticed it because I don't record much there :)

So, I did it again - this time, via Settings > Channel List, and hit ENTER to start the process. I didn't have to go through all the network setup stuff, thank goodness!

I had to go up from "Time Warner City of Cleveland" in the list of available systems to reveal - just plain ol' "Time Warner Cable".

After I verified the placement of three or four channels (2/WVIZ, 14/QVC, etc.), it went to town.

But I noticed that TWC has actually moved the "NEON" local channel on the old Adelphia systems to 23 (same as the Akron/Canton systems) from 15. 15 isn't even available on the cable box anymore!

Time Warner Cable Akron:

I checked number 410 and I have WNEO-HD PBS

It's like WJW is committing TV suicide. Why the hell would they want to be VHF?

Their engineer told me their electric bill would be significantly less broadcasting on channel 8 instead of 31. Evidently it requires more power to cover the same area as the broadcast signal frequency increases.

I reran Guided Setup on my TiVo S2 tonight...because it kept bugging me that the "Time Warner City of Cleveland" lineup was not 100% correct for where I am.

It isn't THAT far off, but some of the channels in the 20's were different. I hadn't really noticed it because I don't record much there :)

So, I did it again - this time, via Settings > Channel List, and hit ENTER to start the process. I didn't have to go through all the network setup stuff, thank goodness!

I had to go up from "Time Warner City of Cleveland" in the list of available systems to reveal - just plain ol' "Time Warner Cable".

After I verified the placement of three or four channels (2/WVIZ, 14/QVC, etc.), it went to town.


But I noticed that TWC has actually moved the "NEON" local channel on the old Adelphia systems to 23 (same as the Akron/Canton systems) from 15. 15 isn't even available on the cable box anymore!

I looked at the guide in my area and it has WNEO on the TW guide on channel 9 but zap2it.com has WEAO. So I googled and came up with this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WEAO_and_WNEO).

Edit: You did select Time Warner Cable Digital rebuild, correct?

I don't get Channel 55 WBNX at all except as a analog channel. All analog's come in fine. We are north Pettibone Road in terms of direction. As of today, Fox 8 is coming in well below 28 signal strength. We for the most part can't even watch it anymore due to the signal drop offs. Rotating the antenna even to the Youngstown channels has them come in all very strong, as strong as the Cleveland Channels. It appears only to be Fox8 themselves for whatever reason. Since I am pretty much the only one having the problem, it can't be their signal strength.

Thanks for helping everyone.

Steve

Judging by your readings it appears that your antenna is better at VHF (3 & 19) than UHF and/or you are aim favors the northern most towers (3, 19, 55 & 61 which are all along Ridgewood Dr. between Broadview & State). BTW: you did not give a reading for 55, which is on top of WJW's current DT frequency (30/31).

Try tweaking your antenna a little bit south of where you are. WJW is farther south than the rest from your POV. Also, if you are using a compass you have to take magnetic declination into account (subtracting or adding {I can't recall if it's + or -} almost 7 degrees from a listed reading to compensate for the difference between true north and magnetic north form NE Ohio).

To give you another way of looking at it, WJW is at the corner of Pleasant Valley & State Roads. Pleasant Valley, Alexander & Pettibone Roads are essentially the same road (and nearly straight most of the way). If you are south of Pettibone all the towers will be a little bit north of due west, OTOH if you are north of Pettibone WEWS would be just about due west with WJW a tiny bit south of that. The rule of thumb is to tweak on your weakest signal and hope that the stronger ones still come in fine.

If this does not help than there may be an obstruction. WJW has a strong signal especially out east. I have family just across the border in PA that watch the analog WJW like a local station (their own DMA stations come in lousy due to terrain obstructions). While WJW-DT had some sporadic problems lately I believe they are back up to full power. (I saw several CEI trucks & the head engineer's car out at the transmitter a couple of weeks ago which coincided with problems I had with their signal - I live only .8 of a mile from WJW so if I had a problem with their signal everybody else did too)

As always YMMV. Best of luck!

Noticed a little glitch Thursday night, and it's still there... WNEO-DT is supposed to be on channel 410, but I'm getting some PPV preview channel instead on my Tivo. Unfortunately, I can't tune this channel on my 8500, since the Tivo is the only HD box I have. Any ideas? TWC was useless when I called them tonight... I explained the problem to them, and his response was "410 is WNEO PBS".

I think a guy around the corner from me has an HD set and TWC - maybe I'll ask him if he can get 410...

I looked at all 4 zip codes in your area at zap2it.com. I noticed when I selected 44221 it gave me several different digital line ups. Time Warner Cable Digital Rebuild had WNEO on channel 410 like Inundated said. Time Warner Cable Cleveland Heights does not. TW CDR Akron does, as Does Franklin County. The only other selection was in 44224 where they have TWC Kent Rebuild and that also had WNEO on 410.

So unless you've selected TWC DRB Cleveland Heights that's where it should be.

And if none of the solutions I gave you helped email Tivo. Go to here (http://www.tivo.com/setupandsupport/contactsupport/lineup_tool.html) and fill out the form. They will actually call you if there is something that you can change in your line up so you can get the correct channel.

Also take a look at Tivo Central/Messages&Settings/Settings/Channels. See if it list WNEO at 410.

OK, off topic but the fellow who said he already had their digital phone service is really getting ripped off.

Digital Phone
Digital Phone (with cable service)............................. $44.95
Digital Phone (with cable + High-Speed)..................... $39.95
Digital Phone delivers unlimited calling, local,
in-state and long distance for one low price.
Digital Phone Unlimited In-State
(with cable service)................................................ $34.95
Long distance .05 cents per minute
Digital Phone Unlimited Local
(with cable service)................................................ $24.95
Long distance .07 cents per minute

They charge for long distance? And they charge 3.95 for voice mail. What a rip off.

Vonage has all this for 24.95 including voice mail, call forwarding and unlimited calls, local and long distance. As I said I took the 500 minute plan for 15.95 and still get free long distance. And I've got E911, call waiting. And I only get charged minutes when I dial a regular number. 800 type calls are free and receiving calls are free.

But this is a cable company. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Vonage requires that you pay for a broadband connection separately though, so you have to add the cost of cable or DSL broadband on top of Vonage's costs to get a better picture of the price comparison. Vonage isn't an ISP.

Vonage requires that you pay for a broadband connection separately though, so you have to add the cost of cable or DSL broadband on top of Vonage's costs to get a better picture of the price comparison. Vonage isn't an ISP.


Excellent point. So maybe I'm getting ripped off. Let's see, I pay $48.85 for Road Runner Turbo and 14.99 for Vonage. Total cost excluding fees from both companies is 63.64.

But I'm a bit confused by what I see in the billing for TW.

Digital Phone
Digital Phone (with cable service)............................. $44.95

Now is that the phone and cable service? Or the phone IF you have cable. If that means you pay for your digital value service as well then the true cost is 90.00. However if that includes the cable service, bargain for sure.

Then the next one is this: Digital Phone (with cable + High-Speed)..................... $39.95
Digital Phone delivers unlimited calling, local,
in-state and long distance for one low price

Now this is a bit hard to believe. If they are saying they are offering High Speed Turbo RR and unlimited phone, how in the heck would it be 5.00 less? To me it would seem that they are saying 39.95 if you have RR Turbo as well. True cost on that would be 88.80.

So if the internet is included in these prices it's a bargain. But I'll bet it isn't. It doesn't make sense that they would offer a high speed Internet service with unlimited phone for only 39.95.

But I will check further.

I looked at all 4 zip codes in your area at zap2it.com. I noticed when I selected 44221 it gave me several different digital line ups. Time Warner Cable Digital Rebuild had WNEO on channel 410 like Inundated said. Time Warner Cable Cleveland Heights does not. TW CDR Akron does, as Does Franklin County. The only other selection was in 44224 where they have TWC Kent Rebuild and that also had WNEO on 410.


I'm confused...I didn't even talk about WNEO. :D My lineup change/Guided Setup on the TiVo S2 (not HD/S3) last night had nothing to do with that...and I don't get WNEO/WEAO HD on 410 on the SA8000.

Of those lineups, "Time Warner Cable Cleveland Heights" is the former Adelphia. Always has been.

When I went through the TiVo lineup change last night, it just said "Time Warner Cable", but I was using the 44321 ZIP code (where I used to live). 44321 never had, as far as I know, the Akron/Canton based system...which is why I chose it.

I'm confused...I didn't even talk about WNEO. :D My lineup change/Guided Setup on the TiVo S2 (not HD/S3) last night had nothing to do with that...and I don't get WNEO/WEAO HD on 410 on the SA8000.

Of those lineups, "Time Warner Cable Cleveland Heights" is the former Adelphia. Always has been.

When I went through the TiVo lineup change last night, it just said "Time Warner Cable", but I was using the 44321 ZIP code (where I used to live). 44321 never had, as far as I know, the Akron/Canton based system...which is why I chose it.

I thought you were responding to mnowlin's comment regarding WNEO. When you said "NEON" I thought that was some local terminology for WNEO.

So I was really responding to both him and you. But apparently you were not responding to him. So that's why you're confused.

Once again I have totally succeeded in trying to be helpful and causing nothing but confusion.:o

And I went through a lot of trouble doing it to. :)

I thought you were responding to mnowlin's comment regarding WNEO. When you said "NEON" I thought that was some local terminology for WNEO.

Oh, I get it.

No, "NEON" is the name TWC has given their local programming channel - what used to be channel 15 on the old Adelphia system, and 23 on the Akron/Canton/Youngstown systems.

They just moved NEON from 15 to 23 here a while back.

"NEON" stands for "Northeast Ohio Network".

Digital Phone
Digital Phone (with cable service)............................. $44.95

Now is that the phone and cable service? Or the phone IF you have cable. If that means you pay for your digital value service as well then the true cost is 90.00. However if that includes the cable service, bargain for sure.


That's the amount for adding phone service to your existing cable bill.


Then the next one is this: Digital Phone (with cable + High-Speed)..................... $39.95
Digital Phone delivers unlimited calling, local,
in-state and long distance for one low price

Now this is a bit hard to believe. If they are saying they are offering High Speed Turbo RR and unlimited phone, how in the heck would it be 5.00 less? To me it would seem that they are saying 39.95 if you have RR Turbo as well. True cost on that would be 88.80.


That's the extra charge for phone if you are already paying for cable and RR. Ooohh - they give you a $5 discount if you pay them a lot.

Once again I have totally succeeded in trying to be helpful and causing nothing but confusion.:o

And I went through a lot of trouble doing it to. :)

Hey - I appreciate it... :D

I checked my Tivo, and it is set for the correct lineup (TWC Akron post-reorg, or whatever it says). 410 is identified as WNEO in the Channel screen and on the IPG. Ran through guided setup again just to be sure, and the problem still exists.

As far as I can tell, one of two things has happened:

1. The Tivo mapping of channel number to frequency and sub-channel ID has gotten screwed up for just this one channel. I haven't found any other channels acting up, and the Tivo is behaving normally.

2. There's a localized distribution problem with TWC. Dunno... A service tech who seemed to know what he was talking about told me the digital and analog parts travel over (respectively) fiber and coax to local distribution points. The analog signal is amplified, the digital signal is demultiplexed and then re-multiplexed as RF, the signals are combined, then finally exit for distribution to local subscribers.

If I was to guess, I'd say #2 is the culprit. Something probably went whacky, and the wrong channel was placed on the coax where WNEO should be. From peering in windows while walking my dog, we have very few HDTV owners in this area, and (face it) the fact that it's WNEO eliminates a lot of people who would notice/report a problem anyway. Not to mention that it can't possibly be a Tivo issue - that would be unheard of! ;)

Side note: From what the tech said, these TWC distribution boxes are also where the magic of SDV occurs. During the demux/remux stage, when someone requests an SDV channel, the box locates an available frequency, places the requested channel on that frequency, and tells your STB where to find the channel. This is also why the channel reorg is being done per area - hardware and software needed to be updated in these boxes to handle SDV, and they're applying the lineup changes at the same time.

That's the amount for adding phone service to your existing cable bill.



That's the extra charge for phone if you are already paying for cable and RR. Ooohh - they give you a $5 discount if you pay them a lot.

I tired to call customer service but was put on eternal hold. Then I tried email but I guess their policy is that this is a possible sale. We need to talk to them live. So they emailed me back telling me to call them.:mad:

But thanks, you proved my point. It's more expensive to go with TWC then it is with Vonaga and TWC.

Hey - I appreciate it... :D

I checked my Tivo, and it is set for the correct lineup (TWC Akron post-reorg, or whatever it says). 410 is identified as WNEO in the Channel screen and on the IPG. Ran through guided setup again just to be sure, and the problem still exists.

As far as I can tell, one of two things has happened:

1. The Tivo mapping of channel number to frequency and sub-channel ID has gotten screwed up for just this one channel. I haven't found any other channels acting up, and the Tivo is behaving normally.

2. There's a localized distribution problem with TWC. Dunno... A service tech who seemed to know what he was talking about told me the digital and analog parts travel over (respectively) fiber and coax to local distribution points. The analog signal is amplified, the digital signal is demultiplexed and then re-multiplexed as RF, the signals are combined, then finally exit for distribution to local subscribers.

If I was to guess, I'd say #2 is the culprit. Something probably went whacky, and the wrong channel was placed on the coax where WNEO should be. From peering in windows while walking my dog, we have very few HDTV owners in this area, and (face it) the fact that it's WNEO eliminates a lot of people who would notice/report a problem anyway. Not to mention that it can't possibly be a Tivo issue - that would be unheard of! ;)

Side note: From what the tech said, these TWC distribution boxes are also where the magic of SDV occurs. During the demux/remux stage, when someone requests an SDV channel, the box locates an available frequency, places the requested channel on that frequency, and tells your STB where to find the channel. This is also why the channel reorg is being done per area - hardware and software needed to be updated in these boxes to handle SDV, and they're applying the lineup changes at the same time.

I've got a feeling the problem is that head end needs to redirect the signal for the cable card somehow, which supports answer #1. I would imagine your pids match as they are suppose to or else you wouldn't get anything. The tech should have known this and called headend.

I tired to call customer service but was put on eternal hold. Then I tried email but I guess their policy is that this is a possible sale. We need to talk to them live. So they emailed me back telling me to call them.:mad:

But thanks, you proved my point. It's more expensive to go with TWC then it is with Vonaga and TWC.

TWC pricing for VOIP sure does seem high. If I'm understanding this:
- If you already have TWC cable tv service it's $45 mo. more to add VOIP
- If you already have TWC cable tv + internet service it's $39 mo. more to add VOIP

The industry standard seems to be in the $25 mo. range (or less). With WOW it's $25 mo. for line 1 and $12 mo. for line 2 (plus all the wonderful taxes). But then maybe WOW charges more for internet & cable service so it's a wash with the total bundled price? :confused: I suppose one must compare the bottom line monthly total comparing equal services & programming.

I've noticed that my HD, which I receive by cable is a little behind my SD OTA.

I'm pretty sure it's because it comes through the cable that there is a delay, but I am curious. Does anyone have a OTA converter and a HDTV OTA? Do you have any delay?
Digital signals have "latency", analog signals do not (or at least any analog latency is measured in undetectable microseconds).

Just this weekend, and just for fun, I had WKYC-TV on in the bedroom, WKYC-DT in the family room and WKYC SD on a 3rd TV via Dish Network during Saturday's Tribe game. As expected, the analog OTA was ahead of the digital OTA and the satellite delivered feed (which travels from Cleveland to the uplink via fiber, then is shot 22,500 miles into space and back another 22,500). There is a good 3 seconds between analog and digital OTA signals and almost 10 seconds on the satellite signals (the HD satellite feed had the longest delay, while the SD satellite feed had a shorter delay).

There is a good 3 seconds between analog and digital OTA signals and almost 10 seconds on the satellite signals (the HD satellite feed had the longest delay, while the SD satellite feed had a shorter delay).

Makes sense to me.

One added complication - for those of us on cable, analog WKYC/3 isn't really analog, if you have a digital box. The digital box does substitution with the cable-delivered "digital" reencoding of the analog signal.

I'm pretty sure they aren't getting it from WKYC-DT, as it is a straight 4:3 feed. Of course, it's quite possible WKYC has a fiber feed to TWC for all of its channels, so it's not necessarily the OTA signal here being sent down as "3".

They used to put the analog versions on the digital boxes in the 800's, but I don't know if they do anymore after the lineup change.

Makes sense to me.

I'm pretty sure they aren't getting it from WKYC-DT, as it is a straight 4:3 feed. Of course, it's quite possible WKYC has a fiber feed to TWC for all of its channels, so it's not necessarily the OTA signal here being sent down as "3".

They used to put the analog versions on the digital boxes in the 800's, but I don't know if they do anymore after the lineup change.

Nope, it's analog converted to digital. Except WBNX of course which for some reason they continue to show an analog feed. And you can really see and hear the difference when you compare it with a real digital channel.

I'm pretty sure they do the same thing with STO digital, but I'm not positive.

They just announced on the FOX 8 news tonight (recorded) that they were sold. Yes I know we all know about it but I guess it really became "official" today.

Side note: From what the tech said, these TWC distribution boxes are also where the magic of SDV occurs. During the demux/remux stage, when someone requests an SDV channel, the box locates an available frequency, places the requested channel on that frequency, and tells your STB where to find the channel. This is also why the channel reorg is being done per area - hardware and software needed to be updated in these boxes to handle SDV, and they're applying the lineup changes at the same time.

I guess SDV is coming soon. I've already noticed a bunch of channels in the 700s/900s that have subscription service messages on the screen. At one point it actually said "Switched Digital Video" in the IPG.

Maybe they're working on installing SDV in your area. :D

Nope, it's analog converted to digital. Except WBNX of course which for some reason they continue to show an analog feed. And you can really see and hear the difference when you compare it with a real digital channel.

I'm pretty sure they do the same thing with STO digital, but I'm not positive.

Yes, as of right now it still is upconvert analog. Coming soon with the DTV transition we should start seeing the opposite happening. HDTV digital downconverted to 4:3 digital SDTV.

I know it's upconvert because it looks like absolute garbage!! We have a "faux digital" WBNX-SD and it is attrocious!!! There's ghosting and faint diagonal lines in the background. I could immediately tell it wasn't REAL digital since there isn't supposed to be ghosting on digital(unless it's an upconverted analog source---as we saw on WOIO late last year).

Digital signals have "latency", analog signals do not (or at least any analog latency is measured in undetectable microseconds).

Undetectable mostly. Analog signals show latency in a different manner, typically called group delay or envelope delay. When this happens to a noticeable degree (measured in nanoseconds), the higher frequency components of the signal arrive a tiny bit later than the lower frequencies, producing chroma delay. This shows up as the "funny paper effect," where the chroma falls slightly outside of the outlineswhere it should be, usually shifted to the right of the luminance signal. There's a chroma-modulated pulse that's usually included in the vertical blanking interval that makes it easy to quantify the amount of chroma delay on a line-selectable waveform monitor.

I guess SDV is coming soon. I've already noticed a bunch of channels in the 700s/900s that have subscription service messages on the screen. At one point it actually said "Switched Digital Video" in the IPG.

Maybe they're working on installing SDV in your area. :D

Yeah, you just keep thinking that. It will be here alright, but not for at least another year.

Nickdawg I've been watching the progression of SDV around the country and to say it's moving at a snails pace is an understatement.

Look dude, I know you want HD channels. So do I. But you have to be realistic. This area is probably going to be one of the last areas to get it. There is just too many other areas ahead of us who are already to go that still don't have it.

Add that and the fact that despite what Cathode Kid says I still do not know of one single SARA unit that has been converted to Navagator. And the only way you will convince me of that is to show me a link that says specifically that SARA conversion is happening.

Nope, it's analog converted to digital. Except WBNX of course which for some reason they continue to show an analog feed. And you can really see and hear the difference when you compare it with a real digital channel.

Yeah, I know, that's in this poorly worded sentence of mine:

The digital box does substitution with the cable-delivered "digital" reencoding of the analog signal.

Perhaps I should have said "upconverted" to make it simpler :D

Though as I mentioned, I'm sure some, if not most, of these signals are coming to TWC via fiber feeds from the TV studios. I'm pretty sure WKYC does this, so it's not technically a reconversion of the analog OTA signal off an antenna.


I'm pretty sure they do the same thing with STO digital, but I'm not positive.

Probably another fiber feed from WKYC, since it's coming out of the same building.

I've got a feeling the problem is that head end needs to redirect the signal for the cable card somehow, which supports answer #1. I would imagine your pids match as they are suppose to or else you wouldn't get anything. The tech should have known this and called headend.

Time (lots of it) will tell. I filed a lineup correction form with Tivo last night - it might be a few days before I hear back from them.

Called TWC and got a rep who spoke English and tried to help. She checked all kinds of things, reset my cablecards a few times, checked some more things, then finally gave up and scheduled a truck roll. Unfortunately, the earliest date they could give me was July 30... I would have protested this, but don't want to raise a stink until I'm sure it's not a Tivo problem. This at least gives the Tivo guys enough time to respond - I'll just have to watch WNEO in SD for a week or two...

Maybe they're working on installing SDV in your area. :D

Man, I sure hope not. I beta-test enough crap at work... :D

Look dude, I know you want HD channels. So do I. But you have to be realistic. This area is probably going to be one of the last areas to get it.

This brings up an interesting point. Many moons ago, this area was among the first to get new "stuff" from TWC. Akron/Canton was one of the first to have Road Runner available, for example. I wonder what changed? Maybe this is some sort of funky apology for the horrendous train wreck that was the first incarnation of RR?

Man, I sure hope not. I beta-test enough crap at work... :D

Interesting point about that. I actually put on one of the SDV channels. Nothing was there. But in the course of looking through the guide the box reset. When it came back up on that channel a different screen was on stating that "SDV is currently not available at this time". And "press "A" to retry".

Which leads me to think, will SDV be another Time Warner POS that never functions properly? Will the channels "not be available"? I mean look how well their Navigator worked out.:rolleyes::D

But, if by some fluke. Some unnatural occurrance, this actually works, we will actually be luck we're in TWC Akron/Canton. They'll start the conversion with their own, original customers first(just like the lineup and Navigator). Why would they start in Cleveland? Many of the systems acquired are still analog/digital hybrids that do not even have all channels in the lineup digital yet.

SDV may be a few years away... for Cleveland systems:D:D

This brings up an interesting point. Many moons ago, this area was among the first to get new "stuff" from TWC. Akron/Canton was one of the first to have Road Runner available, for example. I wonder what changed? Maybe this is some sort of funky apology for the horrendous train wreck that was the first incarnation of RR?

What changed was the acquisition of Adelphia and Comcast. Otherwise you might be on track.

Look how long it took to do the realignment. And you still got Comcast people out there with Motorola boxes.

To give credit to Time Warner, as reluctant as I am to talk positive of any cable company they do seem to at least be trying to put it together. As one Supervisor told me Adelphia, when they first bought all the small companies, really let their service departments act independently. Therefore you have a bunch of individual companies running under the same brand. You get good service out of Macedonia, bad service out of Concord.

Now that has changed and they are righting the ship. Still it's difficult to change one's mindset when you've been doing things a certain way for so many years.

mnowlin, you not being able to receive 410 WNEO correctly is unacceptable. It is costing you time to have the techs come out and they are not fixing your problem.

Time to steve.fry@twcable.com.

Well, I took the plunge..Things went fairly well with the TWC install this morning..They did charge 19.95 for installing a third tv which I wasnt looking for them to do, but no biggie..I do have a question..Is there any indication of what they might put on analog channel 47 at some point?..All I see is color bars..Nothing indicated in the program guide or channel list..

I thought first time installation was supposed to be free, no matter how many outlets you have. I would call and complain for a credit.

I already have RR and Digital Phone, and have had TW Cable before..I may ask about that though

Well, I took the plunge..Things went fairly well with the TWC install this morning..They did charge 19.95 for installing a third tv which I wasnt looking for them to do, but no biggie..I do have a question..Is there any indication of what they might put on analog channel 47 at some point?..All I see is color bars..Nothing indicated in the program guide or channel list..

I'm so stunned you did this I don't know quite what to say. You are getting ripped off on your digital phone, you had better HD selection on satellite, it appears they are already getting you on the "oh we forgot to charge for this" merry go round. But you did it anyway.

Take a look here (http://www.timewarnercable.com/NortheastOhio/) for your cable line up. Scroll down select the information for the lineup in your area. I don't believe there is anything on channel 45.

And as things get really bad, like when you start seeing charges on your bill that you have no idea what they are it's steve.fry@twcable.com. Put that on your email book because as you will learn TWC has the worst customer service. Well, actually they may be better then Adelphia who was the worst but as I said before all cable companies suck.

hook:
I appreciate yours and everyone else's opinion..I have been with TWC, in various forms and packages, for a number of years. I dont need every HD channel in the known universe to be happy..The only major glitch I've ever had with TWC was a few years ago when Digital was new and everything was out for over a week. I know I'm losing some but i'm gaining channels I didnt have with Dish.

Familyland
American Life
Other locals (17, 23, 67..Steubenville's 9 in Qam)- know some may wonder about the real value of them)
WIVM-52
Ohio News Network
Ohio Channel
Lots of Video on demand..
I'm hearing they may add RFD-TV in the future..

Never had a major problem with customer service..

hook:
I appreciate yours and everyone ele's opinion..I have been on TWC, in various forms and packages, for a number of years. I dont need every HD channel in the known universe to be happy..The only major glitch I've ever had with TWC was a few years ago when Digital was new and everything was out for over a week. I know I'm losing some but i'm gaining channels I didnt have with Dish.

Familyland
American Life
Other locals (17, 23, 67..Steubenville's 9 in Qam)- know some may wonder about the real valueof them)
WIVM-52
Ohio News Network
Ohio Channel
Lots of Video on demand..
I'm hearing they may add RFD-TV in the future..

Never had a major problem with customer service..

I totally agree with you on that point bolded.

If VOD is a big thing to you then that's a valid point. To me I never use it I like to plan out ahead of time which is why I use the DVR.

Still, I think you could do better by dropping their phone service. Vonage is a better deal. But it's your money, if you want an all in one package I understand.

And please advise me as to your thoughts of their DVR compared to Dish's. I based my comment about Dish's DVR being superior since they stole the technology from TiVo and got sued for it.;)

Here's a link to the PDF file of Tim's Canton lineup:

http://www.twclineup.com/lineups0208/TWNEO5935CantonMigrationLU022508.pdf

47 is indeed missing. TWC has moved around some of the analog channels, moving them up to digital, or others back down, and left holes behind. For example, the main C-SPAN channel is still on analog, but C-SPAN 2 got kicked up into digital basic (next to the C-SPAN simulcast and C-SPAN 3). Ohio News Network on the former Adelphia got kicked off 70 and up into digital basic...etc.

All of the ones moved up to digital were not filled by other channels...so there are holes here and there.

^^^^That's a good thing. Time Warner is slowly moving more and more channels off analog. They moved a few up there during the transition. Unfortunately two or three have moved down to analog too. :(

mnowlin, you not being able to receive 410 WNEO correctly is unacceptable. It is costing you time to have the techs come out and they are not fixing your problem.

Time to steve.fry@twcable.com.

I hate to play the Fry Card for fear that it might get abused, but in this case, I decided it was justified. Just sent him a pleasant, yet rather lengthy, message explaining the problem. I said that I wasn't overly concerned (although annoyed) with not being able to receive WNEO-DT, but if this is indeed a headend issue, the CSR's should be able to identify this and not waste two weeks by sending a tech to my house, just to find that nothing's wrong with my equipment and the problem is a headend issue that affects all customers in this area.

I'll let you know how he (or his secretary) responds.

^^^^That's a good thing. Time Warner is slowly moving more and more channels off analog. They moved a few up there during the transition. Unfortunately two or three have moved down to analog too. :(

Yeah, like hallmark. They should have left that on digital, I don't get it.

I'm fully on board with you on this point nickdawg. Damn the peasants, get digital or get a converter and get out of our way.;)

I hate to play the Fry Card for fear that it might get abused, but in this case, I decided it was justified. Just sent him a pleasant, yet rather lengthy, message explaining the problem. I said that I wasn't overly concerned (although annoyed) with not being able to receive WNEO-DT, but if this is indeed a headend issue, the CSR's should be able to identify this and not waste two weeks by sending a tech to my house, just to find that nothing's wrong with my equipment and the problem is a headend issue that affects all customers in this area.

I'll let you know how he (or his secretary) responds.

Probably the response will come from either headend (doubtfull) or someone who is the manager of their service department.

But let me know what happens, please. I'm sure the Fry card will work but I have another card that I don't play unless it's absolutely necessary and that I will share only by pm.

It's just something in the signal needs to be adjusted and probably isn't affecting everyone in the area, but others with cable cards may be.

I've had a couple of people who have said they don't want to "abuse" this. This is not abuse, this is how things get done.

A couple of months ago Readers Digest published a list of solutions on what to do when you have problems getting good service. This is exactly one of the things they suggest.

Now should you do it every time you have a problem? No, but if you've had bad experience already with the service from your techs and something new has come up I'd say it's ok. Then a Supervisor will be notified and when send you out good people because he doesn't want his boss breathing down his back.

Why is everybody calling the PBS station from Kent WNEO? If you are in the Cleveland DMA you should be getting WEAO (unless you are in Alliance). Asking TWC for WNEO-DT might give TWC a convenient excuse to not give it to you. It's the equivalent to asking for WKBN or WFMJ when you should be getting WOIO and WKYC.

I know it's the exact same station, but 'NEO is technically out of the market while 'EAO is in the market.

Why is everybody calling the PBS station from Kent WNEO? If you are in the Cleveland DMA you should be getting WEAO (unless you are in Alliance). Asking TWC for WNEO-DT might give TWC a convenient excuse to not give it to you. It's the equivalent to asking for WKBN or WFMJ when you should be getting WOIO and WKYC.

I know it's the exact same station, but 'NEO is technically out of the market while 'EAO is in the market.

Funny because TW list it as WNEO and ZAP2IT.com says WEAO. Same channel.

Once again, TW is wrong. Sort of.:)

Why is everybody calling the PBS station from Kent WNEO? If you are in the Cleveland DMA you should be getting WEAO (unless you are in Alliance). Asking TWC for WNEO-DT might give TWC a convenient excuse to not give it to you. It's the equivalent to asking for WKBN or WFMJ when you should be getting WOIO and WKYC.

I know it's the exact same station, but 'NEO is technically out of the market while 'EAO is in the market.

Because they are basically one in the same. On (whatever 410 is here) the bug in the bottom right corner says "HD|WNEO-DT/WEAO-DT". The SD channel also says "45/49". They ID the same on air and this fall they are set to rebrand as "Western Reserve PBS". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WNEO Also, Time Warner identifies both SD and HD on-air as "WNEO".

Yeah, like hallmark. They should have left that on digital, I don't get it.

I'm fully on board with you on this point nickdawg. Damn the peasants, get digital or get a converter and get out of our way.;)

Here they put MTV2, VH1 Classic, Discovery Science and Jewlery TV on analog. Discovery health, Fit TV, CSPAN 2 and ESPN Classic moved to digital only. They took a smart pill moving those channels to digital and then took a stupid pill by mving channels back to analog.

Wonder if TW will add any of the other HD NBC Channels that will be having Olympic Coverage.

Probably the response will come from either headend (doubtfull) or someone who is the manager of their service department.

But let me know what happens, please. I'm sure the Fry card will work but I have another card that I don't play unless it's absolutely necessary and that I will share only by pm.

It's just something in the signal needs to be adjusted and probably isn't affecting everyone in the area, but others with cable cards may be.

I had a message on my answering machine this afternoon from someone at TWC who wanted to discuss my CableCard problems and come up with a more timely resolution. I'll call her back tomorrow and see what she has to say.

If you're curious, I posted the message I sent at http://www.argos.org/frymsg1.html

I had a message on my answering machine this afternoon from someone at TWC who wanted to discuss my CableCard problems and come up with a more timely resolution. I'll call her back tomorrow and see what she has to say.

If you're curious, I posted the message I sent at http://www.argos.org/frymsg1.html

Nice letter, that's how mine usually go. And I'm not surprised you got a next (or same) day response.

In Readers Digest it states, and I'm paraphrasing "Corporate big wigs surrounds themselves with a firewall of people who's sole purpose is to make sure that these type of issues are dealt with."

So Steve Fry probably doesn't even read the message, but somebody close to him, with power did and that's why you get the almost "instant" response.

I also got a message that a channel had been added, CRNTOH channel 186. Either I don't really get it because it's on the higher level digital or I'm not really getting a signal.

I have no idea what this channel is but I probably don't care.

Edit: I just took a look, it's not listed in the guide (I don't think) under the correct name but it is in the "shopping tier". Thank the TiVo Gods I don't receive it!

You're most likely correct Hook. Directv has a channel called CRTV and it's just another all infomercial channel.

Question:
I have the Explorer HD8240 with Navigator software. Is Caller ID now activated at all? The online instructions on the navigator software suggest how to turn it on, but I find it nowhere on my screens..

Just in case anyone cares, looks like Warner has done another channel realignment for the QAM down here in Canton. WBNX-HD is now on QAM channel 78-4. There were a couple different channels added too, including WVIZ-HD (which we've already had WEAO/WNEO-HD for quite a while, and they are simulcast so...).
What I'd really like is WVIZ-DT, because my kids like to watch the SD channel in the mornings, and the SD always looks like crapola.

Just in case anyone cares, looks like Warner has done another channel realignment for the QAM down here in Canton. WBNX-HD is now on QAM channel 78-4. There were a couple different channels added too, including WVIZ-HD (which we've already had WEAO/WNEO-HD for quite a while, and they are simulcast so...).
What I'd really like is WVIZ-DT, because my kids like to watch the SD channel in the mornings, and the SD always looks like crapola.

I live in North Canton and still can't find WBNX-HD on TWC QAM but did notice the addition a few days ago of channels like HBO Comedy, DIY, Fit TV, and The Outdoor Channel. I wish they would just put FOX News back on though.

...............What I'd really like is WVIZ-DT, because my kids like to watch the SD channel in the mornings, and the SD always looks like crapola.

+1 for WVIZ-DT on the WOW cable system. Why WOW doesn't offer it on QAM as well is beyond me (other than the obvious "pay for HD service"). :D

However, WOW and/or WVIZ have definitely been *fiddling* with the WVIZ-SD feed on my system as some days it is the crappy analog signal while other days it's a beautiful picture. Maybe testing digital SD?

Anyone else noticing this? If the same is happening on TWC or other cable providers then maybe it's WVIZ *fiddling* on their end.

I live in North Canton and still can't find WBNX-HD on TWC QAM but did notice the addition a few days ago of channels like HBO Comedy, DIY, Fit TV, and The Outdoor Channel. I wish they would just put FOX News back on though.

I saw some of those other channels last night, but do not see them today. I'll maybe rescan again tonight. WBNX is on 78-3 for me.

I also got a message that a channel had been added, CRNTOH channel 186. Either I don't really get it because it's on the higher level digital or I'm not really getting a signal.

I have no idea what this channel is but I probably don't care.

Edit: I just took a look, it's not listed in the guide (I don't think) under the correct name but it is in the "shopping tier". Thank the TiVo Gods I don't receive it!

I also go this on my TiVo S2, but it's not on the TWC box yet. You're right, it's up in the shopping channels, so it's probably something I can safely ignore whenever it does show up!

And yes, WNEO and WEAO are the exact same - they simulcast 100%. And they'll be "Western Reserve PBS" in the fall, presumably still keeping the legal call letters WNEO and WEAO.

Oh, just noticed over in the Youngstown thread that WYTV-DT may actually be receivable over here sometime after the digital transition! They're maxing out in a new application, 1000KW!

More recently asses channels: 100, 200, 300, 400 and 600. They are called "Time Warner" ans show information about the new lineup and where channels are located.

Seems a bit odd to add these channels NOW instead of in march.

More recently asses channels: 100, 200, 300, 400 and 600. They are called "Time Warner" ans show information about the new lineup and where channels are located.

Seems a bit odd to add these channels NOW instead of in march.

No one else will ask but I will. You do mean "assigned" correct? Or are you referring to TW programing people as.....well, you know.;)

The S is right next to the D on the keyboard.....

No one else will ask but I will. You do mean "assigned" correct? Or are you referring to TW programing people as.....well, you know.;)

The "S" is right by the "D". And maybe I was subliminally letting my feelings about Time Warner through as well. ;) These 5 channels have perfect, clear picture on them. So do many of those shopping channels that have come up in earlier conversation.

Leads me to my next point, did Time Warner do something to the compression/bandwidth of the channels during the lineup change? I've noticed that some of the channels that used to be the over 100 channels look and sound like crap. One channel, American life on 115 is barely heard at normal volume level and the picture looks less than great. Also, I have a show recorded on Fuse from January and the picture/sound is better than now.

The "S" is right by the "D". And maybe I was subliminally letting my feelings about Time Warner through as well. ;) These 5 channels have perfect, clear picture on them. So do many of those shopping channels that have come up in earlier conversation.

Leads me to my next point, did Time Warner do something to the compression/bandwidth of the channels during the lineup change? I've noticed that some of the channels that used to be the over 100 channels look and sound like crap. One channel, American life on 115 is barely heard at normal volume level and the picture looks less than great. Also, I have a show recorded on Fuse from January and the picture/sound is better than now.

To be fair I don't watch hardly anything on the digital channels, so I really can't blame it on Navigator software.

However I have a feeling that is more likely the case.;)

I have always noticed that on STO digital that the sound was softer then the analog version. I kind of accepted that as my receiver picking it up as Dolby 2.0 instead of PCM 48.

One channel, American life on 115 is barely heard at normal volume level and the picture looks less than great. Also, I have a show recorded on Fuse from January and the picture/sound is better than now.

I have regular recordings on ALN/115 (the entire Monday night lineup), and I haven't noticed anything different. I'm only recording them in analog, er, digital/SD/whateever on my TiVo S2. I haven't watched ALN on the HD set to see how bad it looks. I tend to avoid watching non-HD digital cable channels on the HD set.

The PQ isn't all that great on ALN, but I always figured it was the fault of the channel itself. It does seem to be a "low-rent" channel. And the stuff I record is all old 70's sitcoms.

The sound issue...ALL of the digital cable channels seem a whole bunch softer than the analog channels. If I'm watching something off of one of the 100-plus channels, and then switch either live or recorded to something on the analog sub-100 channels, I often have to dive for the remote quickly because the analog is that much louder!

I have no idea how to fix this, or if I can even do so.

I have always noticed that on STO digital that the sound was softer then the analog version. I kind of accepted that as my receiver picking it up as Dolby 2.0 instead of PCM 48.

TWC has serious issues with the volume levels on most of their channels... I've noticed this on my TiVo, my SA box, and direct cable-to-tv. The digital channel volume is always notably lower from their analog counterparts. Switching from WKYC-DT to Comedy Central analog without previously turning down the volume is guaranteed to wake up the wife late at night...

(This new keyboard I'm trying out for work really sucks. Feels like you're typing in Jello.)

mike

(This new keyboard I'm trying out for work really sucks. Feels like you're typing in Jello.)

mike

Of course your expressing this opinion during your break time because I'm sure you wouldn't be on the AVS Forum while at work.;)

Either that or you're simply using the AVS Forum to test the keyboard with. Because we all know that while at work, we don't go on the internet.:D

Does anyone get WBNX (55.1) in HD. I lived in Cuyahoga Falls last year and I did get it with my rooftop antenna. I moved to Akron and now cannot get it. Does anyone no the status?

Does anyone get WBNX (55.1) in HD. I lived in Cuyahoga Falls last year and I did get it with my rooftop antenna. I moved to Akron and now cannot get it. Does anyone no the status?

As far as I know, WBNX-DT is on as usual, pumping out full power. I live in the former Northampton Township. What part of town are you living in now?

I brought my CECB (coupon-eligible converter box) downstairs yesterday, to fit one of the only non-cable connected TVs I have - in the kitchen. I wasn't expecting much, since the TV is under the counter and the kitchen is well away from any windows...but I got all the local DTs I usually get here, including WBNX-DT, with no problem, just using standard rabbit ears.

I can't get WKYC-DT there, of course, but I can't get it anywhere else in the house on a regular basis. I'll just have to wait until 2/17/09, when it's up on the new tower on DT 17.

You really should not need a rooftop antenna to get WBNX-DT anywhere in the Akron area.

Of course your expressing this opinion during your break time because I'm sure you wouldn't be on the AVS Forum while at work.;)

Either that or you're simply using the AVS Forum to test the keyboard with. Because we all know that while at work, we don't go on the internet.:D

Hehe... Naa, I was at home at the time. I often try out new pieces of hardware at home before buying large quantities of them for deployment at work. (That keyboard will NOT be deployed.)

Of course I don't spend time cruising around the net at work, especially the AVS forums... That would be a waste of company resources... ;)

As far as I know, WBNX-DT is on as usual, pumping out full power. I live in the former Northampton Township. What part of town are you living in now?

I brought my CECB (coupon-eligible converter box) downstairs yesterday, to fit one of the only non-cable connected TVs I have - in the kitchen. I wasn't expecting much, since the TV is under the counter and the kitchen is well away from any windows...but I got all the local DTs I usually get here, including WBNX-DT, with no problem, just using standard rabbit ears.

I can't get WKYC-DT there, of course, but I can't get it anywhere else in the house on a regular basis. I'll just have to wait until 2/17/09, when it's up on the new tower on DT 17.

You really should not need a rooftop antenna to get WBNX-DT anywhere in the Akron area.

So those CECBs pick up most stations with just rabbit ears? That's good to hear. I've been considering getting one for my kitchen TV. It currently has analog cable(no box) and I hate it. I usually just watch local channels(news, sports, weather) on that TV and the SD analog PQ is garbage and I really don't care about losing the basic service channels since they are analog without a settop box. The digital TWC boxes on my other TVs are MUCH better.

I've been unsure about it since I've tried pulling in SD analog OTA and haven't had good luck. I usually get 19 and 23 perfect. 43 55 and 61 are OK. VHF are always grainy and fuzzy. Some of the other UHF are not too hot either, although I can get WFMJ from Y-Town. Since SD was bad I assumed I might as well write off HD OTA. I thought about trying clear QAM with the converter box. But you've given me some hope with OTA since you're also in Summit County.

I have regular recordings on ALN/115 (the entire Monday night lineup), and I haven't noticed anything different. I'm only recording them in analog, er, digital/SD/whateever on my TiVo S2. I haven't watched ALN on the HD set to see how bad it looks. I tend to avoid watching non-HD digital cable channels on the HD set.

The PQ isn't all that great on ALN, but I always figured it was the fault of the channel itself. It does seem to be a "low-rent" channel. And the stuff I record is all old 70's sitcoms.

The sound issue...ALL of the digital cable channels seem a whole bunch softer than the analog channels. If I'm watching something off of one of the 100-plus channels, and then switch either live or recorded to something on the analog sub-100 channels, I often have to dive for the remote quickly because the analog is that much louder!

I have no idea how to fix this, or if I can even do so.

That's the thing. I don't have any analog channels. All of our channels(former under 100 and former over 100-now combined) are ALL digital on STBs. Like the example, channels like Comedy Central and ESPN are also Dolby 2/0. That's what I don't understand. Why are some digital channels louder than others and why is PQ better on some than others?

Nice letter, that's how mine usually go. And I'm not surprised you got a next (or same) day response.

Well, I called the TWC rep back Thursday afternoon. She was very pleasant to talk to, brought up some of the finer points of my email, and agreed that waiting two weeks for a tech visit was unnecessary. She implied that a group of techs available to her was outside the normal service call group, with some of them specializing in CableCards. She offered to have a tech out that evening or Friday (I passed on this due to work scheduling issues), but took her up on a 12:00-2:00 appointment Saturday (yesterday) afternoon.

Around 9AM Saturday morning, we got a phone call from a TWC rep. She said that some problems were found and corrected in our local distribution facilities, and asked me to check 410 WNEO-DT to make sure it was working (it was). We also checked a few other channels just to make sure everything was right. She also said that they noticed some signal levels between the distribution point and my CableCards were a little off and had been corrected. (See footnote.) She asked if I still wanted a tech to visit, and I told her I was OK to have this cancelled.

A-ha! I was right! (Love that feeling. :) ) TWC screws up again, and their front-end CSR people have no clue. Get the problem elevated to someone who know what the hell they're doing, and the problem gets fixed...

Footnote: In the past 4-6 weeks, I've had intermittent problems tuning into premium and non-broadcast HD channels. (ex: WKYC, WEWS, etc. always work, but Food-HD and Showtime were iffy.) They worked most of the time, but I was starting to get complaints from my wife. The Tivo signal-strength meter would vary between 60-100%, without any discernable pattern. After a bunch of in-house testing, I was starting to suspect the (old) cable run between the incoming splitter and the TiVo, but this may not be the case. Since TWC made their corrections, I haven't noticed any problems tuning these channels, but will give it a few days...

I've been considering getting one for my kitchen TV. It currently has analog cable(no box) and I hate it. I usually just watch local channels(news, sports, weather) on that TV and the SD analog PQ is garbage and I really don't care about losing the basic service channels since they are analog without a settop box.

OK, I gotta ask... It's a kitchen TV. Maybe 15" at the most. And you're that worried about PQ? :)

Of course, if you have a 42" Plasma in there, I just need to come see your kitchen! :D

OK, I gotta ask... It's a kitchen TV. Maybe 15" at the most. And you're that worried about PQ? :)

Of course, if you have a 42" Plasma in there, I just need to come see your kitchen! :D

PQ on all my stations in the birds room was crap until I got the digital converter. So either you get it with rabbit ears or you don't.

And I think the birds TV is 13".:D

Well, I called the TWC rep back Thursday afternoon. She was very pleasant to talk to, brought up some of the finer points of my email, and agreed that waiting two weeks for a tech visit was unnecessary. She implied that a group of techs available to her was outside the normal service call group, with some of them specializing in CableCards. She offered to have a tech out that evening or Friday (I passed on this due to work scheduling issues), but took her up on a 12:00-2:00 appointment Saturday (yesterday) afternoon.

Around 9AM Saturday morning, we got a phone call from a TWC rep. She said that some problems were found and corrected in our local distribution facilities, and asked me to check 410 WNEO-DT to make sure it was working (it was). We also checked a few other channels just to make sure everything was right. She also said that they noticed some signal levels between the distribution point and my CableCards were a little off and had been corrected. (See footnote.) She asked if I still wanted a tech to visit, and I told her I was OK to have this cancelled.

A-ha! I was right! (Love that feeling. :) ) TWC screws up again, and their front-end CSR people have no clue. Get the problem elevated to someone who know what the hell they're doing, and the problem gets fixed...

Footnote: In the past 4-6 weeks, I've had intermittent problems tuning into premium and non-broadcast HD channels. (ex: WKYC, WEWS, etc. always work, but Food-HD and Showtime were iffy.) They worked most of the time, but I was starting to get complaints from my wife. The Tivo signal-strength meter would vary between 60-100%, without any discernable pattern. After a bunch of in-house testing, I was starting to suspect the (old) cable run between the incoming splitter and the TiVo, but this may not be the case. Since TWC made their corrections, I haven't noticed any problems tuning these channels, but will give it a few days...

And there is a lesson to be learned here. You know what the techs and CSR's are capable of by now. When it comes to these type of issues (if you have them again) don't waste your time on waiting on them. Make the service call appointment but after you do that and get that two week waiting period. write again, "from past experience I have seen that when a regular tech shows up they are not able to deal with these problems and I have to wait longer to get them fixed."

You will get a call and that special service.

And I'll bet that person you spoke with worked in headend, or at least contacted headend about your problem. You see that's the real problem is that the techs leave and they don't even think about giving headend a call. "It's a bad TiVo" is usually what they will say.

You are not "abusing" anything. You are simply keyed in to getting good customer service now, which is what YOU deserve.

PQ on all my stations in the birds room was crap until I got the digital converter. So either you get it with rabbit ears or you don't.

And I think the birds TV is 13".:D

I have to agree. You'd be quite surprised at the PQ improvement on even a small-ish tv like that going from something like analog cable or overcompressed SD digital channels to something such as downressed (at the converter) OTA HD channels with bandwidth 'breathing room'.

I even tried something similar once with my 19" set hooked up via s-video to my HD set-top. Was watching primetime HD/letterboxed material on NBC (L&O:SVU to be exact). Even going from the SD channel to downressed/letterboxed HD was like night and day.

The case probably is that even the satellite feeds for something like SD material is noticably compressed in some fashion to where occasional scenarios make it visible to the naked eye. But in 90% of cases especially with national broadcast television and and native HD programming, most stations are only broadcasting in 720p/1080i OTA anyhow and at that point even having it downressed to 480i by a converter, the compression artifacts practically disappear at that conversion ratio.

............ But in 90% of cases especially with national broadcast television and and native HD programming, most stations are only broadcasting in 720p/1080i OTA anyhow and at that point even having it downressed to 480i by a converter, the compression artifacts practically disappear at that conversion ratio.

I believe all OTA is limited to 720p/1080i and will remain so. I think to do 1080p OTA would eat up too much bandwidth and would require another Natl. DTV Conversion requiring all new equipment upgrades again from the broadcaster to new CECB boxes. For OTA 720p/1080i is as good as it gets. :D

1080p is a part of the ATSC standard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATSC_Standards) and a specific compression format isn't. So your local affiliates could broadcast in 1080p using MPEG4 (assuming that provides an adequate picture at 19.39Mbps), but they won't since they know the public equipment doesn't support it and they've just dumped a untold number of millions of dollars in upgrading for the analog cutoff. By the time they're ready to upgrade again, compression technologies will have improved to the point that 1080p should be feasible.

1080p is a part of the ATSC standard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATSC_Standards) and a specific compression format isn't. So your local affiliates could broadcast in 1080p using MPEG4 (assuming that provides an adequate picture at 19.39Mbps), but they won't since they know the public equipment doesn't support it and they've just dumped a untold number of millions of dollars in upgrading for the analog cutoff. By the time they're ready to upgrade again, compression technologies will have improved to the point that 1080p should be feasible.

Yup. To utilize current OTA bandwidth limitations MPEG4 would be the (current) compression format of choice. But again, that's an entire other DTV conversion that neither broadcasters nor consumers want to go through.

Digital 1080p on every channel via OTA/Cable/Sat.....now that would be a dream come true! :D

Digital 1080p on every channel via OTA/Cable/Sat.....now that would be a dream come true! :D

I don't know. From people I've talked to the pq of 1080p vs 720p is highly overrated. It was from that discussion that I decided to go bigger on my TV and get the 720p instead of a smaller screen 1080p.

Now you know what I would consider a dream come true? Broadcast 3D television, without any glasses and that stuff.

I remember going to a theater in the 70's and seeing a 3D version of Andy Warholes Frankenstein. Glasses of course but wow that was something. Now if I were to see the same thing today I wonder if I would be so impressed.

BTW that was a very gross film and I still have this vision of let's say a certain part of the male anatomy dangling from an arrow in front of my face. Yech!!

I don't know. From people I've talked to the pq of 1080p vs 720p is highly overrated. It was from that discussion that I decided to go bigger on my TV and get the 720p instead of a smaller screen 1080p.

Now you know what I would consider a dream come true? Broadcast 3D television, without any glasses and that stuff.

I remember going to a theater in the 70's and seeing a 3D version of Andy Warholes Frankenstein. Glasses of course but wow that was something. Now if I were to see the same thing today I wonder if I would be so impressed.

BTW that was a very gross film and I still have this vision of let's say a certain part of the male anatomy dangling from an arrow in front of my face. Yech!!

Broadcast 3D would indeed be awesome!

I think you are confusing 1080i with 1080p. 720p & 1080i are almost indistinguishable from each other at a normal viewing distance.
Either are quite adequate for OTA/Cable/Sat.
1080p is quite different. ;)

I think you are confusing 1080i with 1080p. 720p & 1080i are almost indistinguishable from each other at a normal viewing distance.
Either are quite adequate for OTA/Cable/Sat.
1080p is quite different. ;)

Here's a good chart you might find helpful when discussing visual acuity for resolutions at certain distances and screen sizes.

http://www.gadgetell.com/images/2007/03/resolution_chart.jpg

1080p isn't going to do me any good with my screen size and viewing distance.

.........1080p isn't going to do me any good with my screen size and viewing distance.

What is your screen size? Why do they not graph 1080i?

Broadcast 3D would indeed be awesome!

I think you are confusing 1080i with 1080p. 720p & 1080i are almost indistinguishable from each other at a normal viewing distance.
Either are quite adequate for OTA/Cable/Sat.
1080p is quite different. ;)

No buddy, I'm not confusing them and they are quite different. That is 720p and 1080i.

I've never seen 1080p. Somebody in this forum advised me to go with 720p and that's what I went with based on his advice that there was not that 1080p is highly overrated. And he was not talking about 1080i.

i is interlaced. p is progressive. I know the difference.;)

Here's a good chart you might find helpful when discussing visual acuity for resolutions at certain distances and screen sizes.

http://www.gadgetell.com/images/2007/03/resolution_chart.jpg

1080p isn't going to do me any good with my screen size and viewing distance.

Awesome chart Terry and that was exactly why he told me to go with 720p. I'm about 8 feet away from the TV, perfect for 720p LCD 37".

Terry, were you the one who suggested the 720p? I can't remember who it was.

No buddy, I'm not confusing them and they are quite different. That is 720p and 1080i.

I've never seen 1080p. Somebody in this forum advised me to go with 720p and that's what I went with based on his advice that there was not that 1080p is highly overrated. And he was not talking about 1080i.

i is interlaced. p is progressive. I know the difference.;)

Yes. You received good advice and screen size & viewing distance are surely factors. For the same reason I did not go 1080p on my two 42" plasmas.

Where 1080p would make a an improvement in broadcast tv (which is not in the foreseeable future) would be in motion artifacts like sporting events. :cool: As this seemed unlikely even two years ago I went 720p & 1080i.

Terry, were you the one who suggested the 720p? I can't remember who it was.

I may have been. I kind of lose track of those things :)

I thought about trying clear QAM with the converter box. But you've given me some hope with OTA since you're also in Summit County.

I don't wanna give you TOO much hope...even the kitchen is probably bathing in some RF because I have a big loft window in the general direction of Parma, and I'm on a hill.

But I was pleasantly surprised at how easy the reception was, and I'm just using garden variety rabbit ears on the counter. (The TV is under the counter - the only problem I have is that to use the kitchen, I have to walk in front of the antenna! :D)

Generally speaking, and the folks in the CECB threads can properly address this, it appears those boxes have good tuners in them, at least the Zenith/Insignia box does - 5th gen of some sort.

That's the thing. I don't have any analog channels. All of our channels(former under 100 and former over 100-now combined) are ALL digital on STBs. Like the example, channels like Comedy Central and ESPN are also Dolby 2/0. That's what I don't understand. Why are some digital channels louder than others and why is PQ better on some than others?

Ah, we've reached the Old TWC/New TWC divide. You're on the old Akron/Canton TWC system, and I'm on the old Adelphia/Cleveland system. TWC never bothered to extend their cable out to Northampton Township, so those living out here (OUT here!) went without cable until Cablevision's Cleveland-based system started wiring up western Summit County...which eventually became Adelphia, and is now in TWC's ballpark.

As far as I know, of the sub-100 "analog" channels, only the local OTA stations are digital on STBs in the former Adelphia territories, and only 3/5/8/19/43.

They're apparently moving to change that - as I noted on a message here a while back, I've spotted several "analog" cable channels being mirrored up in unused 800 series channels. This is exactly what Adelphia did before they made 3/5/8/19/43 digital on digital boxes.

I have to agree. You'd be quite surprised at the PQ improvement on even a small-ish tv like that going from something like analog cable or overcompressed SD digital channels to something such as downressed (at the converter) OTA HD channels with bandwidth 'breathing room'.

I've got that CECB in the kitchen on a small (13") set, and I can notice the difference even when the source material isn't HD.

And as hookbill will tell you, until I got my HD LCD set for the loft, I was watching the output of my SA8000HD DVR box on an analog tube set, and the picture improvement was noticeable there, too!

They're apparently moving to change that - as I noted on a message here a while back, I've spotted several "analog" cable channels being mirrored up in unused 800 series channels. This is exactly what Adelphia did before they made 3/5/8/19/43 digital on digital boxes.

I'll have to check to see if those 800s channels are here too ro not. I have the foreign language channels there. However we do have a bunch of channels in the 790s and 950s that are subscription service. The Diganostic screen confirms they are SDV. Try entering channel numbers 791 and 949 and see if anything comes up on those channels. My box says USA on 791 and FX on 949.

I'll have to check to see if those 800s channels are here too ro not. I have the foreign language channels there. However we do have a bunch of channels in the 790s and 950s that are subscription service. The Diganostic screen confirms they are SDV. Try entering channel numbers 791 and 949 and see if anything comes up on those channels. My box says USA on 791 and FX on 949.

I'm not near my SA8000HD right now, but on my analog digital cable box, they just bump me to the next channels.

The 800-series mirrors on the former Adelphia system are just above the foreign language channels, and are:

BOOM 875
CSPN2 876
CSPN3 877
HNEWS 878
DKIDS 879
DSCI 880
DISNY 881
DIY 882
FIT 883
H&GTV 884
FAMAL 885
NOGIN 886
TWC 887
TOOND 888
FOOD 889

I'll have to go looking back at the old lineup, but I'm pretty sure some of these - if not many - were digital before the lineup change. C-SPAN3 definitely was, as it was never analog...and still isn't, in this mirrored configuration.

So, right now, I don't know what the heck they're doing. But pre-lineup change, the 800 series was where they stuck the analog 3/5/8/19/43 for digital cable box viewers.

I'm not near my SA8000HD right now, but on my analog digital cable box, they just bump me to the next channels.

Are you refering to channels 792 and 949? Those channels are not in the guide. They have to be entered w/ the number keys. 7-9-2; 9-4-9

The 800-series mirrors on the former Adelphia system are just above the foreign language channels, and are:

BOOM 875
CSPN2 876
CSPN3 877
HNEWS 878
DKIDS 879
DSCI 880
DISNY 881
DIY 882
FIT 883
H&GTV 884
FAMAL 885
NOGIN 886
TWC 887
TOOND 888
FOOD 889

I'll have to go looking back at the old lineup, but I'm pretty sure some of these - if not many - were digital before the lineup change. C-SPAN3 definitely was, as it was never analog...and still isn't, in this mirrored configuration.

So, right now, I don't know what the heck they're doing. But pre-lineup change, the 800 series was where they stuck the analog 3/5/8/19/43 for digital cable box viewers.

Yeah, now I know what you were talking about. I have these channels too. They all work so they can't be SDV test channels. I don't know why they would be there, I think your theory is right. Before we went all digital two years back we used to have some channels up in the 600s that were copies of analog channels like TWC, CNN, TNT, A&E and USA. Except these channels went away with the lineup change.

And yes, Boomerang, CSPAN3, Discovery Kids, Discovery Science, DIY, Nogin, Toon Disney and CSPAN2(later) used to be the "over 100" channels. (885 is subscription so I have no clue what FAMAL is).

Hey Hook, check your Tivo lineup to see if any of these 800 series channels are there.

@toby10: Like the others have said, the ATSC standard isn't as limited as you think. All standard resolutions: 480i/480p/720p/1080i/1080p are all supported in the spec as-is the use of mpeg4 as also stated.

But in the majority of cases that at least I have seen, OTA stations are broadcasting in either 720p or 1080i exclusively. The only difference is when you are talking subchannels or really low-budget stations. I know here in the youngstown area, the big 4 (WFMJ,WKBN,WYTV,WNEO/WEAO) already broadcast in 720p or 1080i. Even WFMJ which hasn't had the budget to upgrade their equipment to broadcast local programming in HD has been capable of keeping the national programming in it's original 1080i format. Hence why I mentioned that usually when coming from anything but OTA digital broadcasts to OTA HD will be like night and day even on smaller sets. Between of the larger resolution being downressed to 480i, better bandwidth situations, and any possible compression artifacts being practically gone altogether after the picture being resized, you're talking the equivalent of a properly encoded dvd fed via S-video or component in quality if not better.

Also, just as reference to the last few posts: Usually it is pretty easy to tell what is an analog channel and what is a digital simulcast just by how fast the channel tunes if you watch it. In addition, if you own an SA*HDC box, those have the analog tuners removed so any channel you do get is ALWAYS digital. Just to keep it in perspective.

I don't know how the ex-Adelphia areas have been managed by TWC or how they were even set up by Adelphia beforehand, but here in the legacy TWC area, we've had digital simulcasting of the lower <100 channels for the past couple years or more now. About the only channels that aren't are the local public access channels and even those seem to have went digital over the past couple months or so, probably in correlation with the channel realignment.

That's the thing. I don't have any analog channels. All of our channels(former under 100 and former over 100-now combined) are ALL digital on STBs. Like the example, channels like Comedy Central and ESPN are also Dolby 2/0. That's what I don't understand. Why are some digital channels louder than others and why is PQ better on some than others?

They are probably upgraded analog, not true digital. We still have analog stations under 100 over here.

Those other stations would have to be upgraded unless they are now following your evil plot, whoops, I mean good suggestion to force the peasants to purchase a box.:D

They are probably upgraded analog, not true digital. We still have analog stations under 100 over here.

Those other stations would have to be upgraded unless they are now following your evil plot, whoops, I mean good suggestion to force the peasants to purchase a box.:D

They have to be upgraded analog. There is a night and day difference between the PW on WNEO PBS. Try watching it on the regular tier, then switch it to the straight up digital channel in the digital tier.

WNEO analog looks like Sh**.

Are you refering to channels 792 and 949? Those channels are not in the guide. They have to be entered w/ the number keys. 7-9-2; 9-4-9

Which I d-i-d, and as I said, the box kicked me to the nearest adjacent existing channel.

Hey Hook, check your Tivo lineup to see if any of these 800 series channels are there.

I'm not hookbill, but I have the same TiVo lineup, and those extra 800's channels are not there. I only see them by using the cable box guide.

They have to be upgraded analog. There is a night and day difference between the PW on WNEO PBS. Try watching it on the regular tier, then switch it to the straight up digital channel in the digital tier.

WNEO analog looks like Sh**.

I'm confused, here. WNEO/WEAO should only exist in two places in the "legacy" Akron/Canton lineup...the regular analog version, and the PBS HD version at 410. As far as I know, the lower-channel version is the regular analog, and there is no "digital" version of 45/49 aside from the PBS HD feed on 410.

I'm confused, here. WNEO/WEAO should only exist in two places in the "legacy" Akron/Canton lineup...the regular analog version, and the PBS HD version at 410. As far as I know, the lower-channel version is the regular analog, and there is no "digital" version of 45/49 aside from the PBS HD feed on 410.

I think they removed the all digital version of WNEO/WEAO when they did the lineup changes. It is still available OTA, and if you can get it, try comparing it to TWC's channel.

I'm confused, here. WNEO/WEAO should only exist in two places in the "legacy" Akron/Canton lineup...the regular analog version, and the PBS HD version at 410. As far as I know, the lower-channel version is the regular analog, and there is no "digital" version of 45/49 aside from the PBS HD feed on 410.

I have Lifeline Basic on TW in Canton. I get 45/49 SD (very crappy picture). Then via QAM I also get 45/49 DT AND WNEO/WEAO HD on a different channel. Recently, they've just (re)added WVIZ-HD (I also get WVIZ SD). There has never been a WVIZ-DT channel though.

I think they removed the all digital version of WNEO/WEAO when they did the lineup changes. It is still available OTA, and if you can get it, try comparing it to TWC's channel.

Yeah, I get it downstairs on the CECB in the kitchen with no problem, it's 49.2 (PBS HD is 49.1).

I just didn't realize TWC had an "all-digital" SD version of WNEO anywhere in the lineup...I know they didn't here in the former Adelphia areas, though they do carry WVIZ-DT's two subs, The Ohio Channel and PBS World.

I have Lifeline Basic on TW in Canton. I get 45/49 SD (very crappy picture). Then via QAM I also get 45/49 DT AND WNEO/WEAO HD on a different channel. Recently, they've just (re)added WVIZ-HD (I also get WVIZ SD). There has never been a WVIZ-DT channel though.

Let me reclarify exactly what I am getting here...

SD (Lifeline Basic / no box)
WVIZ (2)
WNEO/WEAO (12)

DT (via QAM)
WNEO/WEAO (49-2)
The Ohio Channel (78-2)
PBS World (78-3)

HD (via QAM)
WNEO/WEAO (49-1)
WVIZ (78-1)

They have to be upgraded analog. There is a night and day difference between the PW on WNEO PBS. Try watching it on the regular tier, then switch it to the straight up digital channel in the digital tier.

WNEO analog looks like Sh**.

The SD local channels are upconverted analog. TWC gets an analog feed from the broadcast station(for now). I remember that channel. I always used to watch 550 instead of 10(b/c 10 looks like sh**).

Yeah, I get it downstairs on the CECB in the kitchen with no problem, it's 49.2 (PBS HD is 49.1).

I just didn't realize TWC had an "all-digital" SD version of WNEO anywhere in the lineup...I know they didn't here in the former Adelphia areas, though they do carry WVIZ-DT's two subs, The Ohio Channel and PBS World.

WNEO-DT used to be channel 550(right next to WNEO HD). It was dropped during the lineup change(which seems pointless since they'll have to re-add it sooner or later when WNEO analog goes away).

We also used to get WKYC-DT, before Weather Plus was on that channel it was a digital simulcast of NBC.

OK, I think I get it, now.

The SD/non-HD version of WNEO/WEAO (45.2/49.2) probably show up in the QAM because they're interjected with the QAM encoding of the -DT signals. It doesn't appear that TWC, at this point, carries those digital-based SD simulcasts on the regular lineup anywhere...after the lineup change.

The "digital cable box" simulcasts of 3/5/8/19/43 are indeed just a cable upconversion of the analog signals, though I submit that most of the locals apparently send their feeds directly via fiber to the cable headend (presumably Lakeside near downtown Cleveland for TWC, the former Adelphia facility?).

So, not quite analog OTA, but SD definitely. I'm guessing 45/49 does not have a fiber feed, but I could be wrong.

nickdawg what I don't understand is why are they converting the analog to digital? I can understand doing that with the HD stations but not every shopping channel or local.

It doesn't make sense. I really wouldn't have believed you if you didn't say you see Dolby 2.0 on these channels.

Are you sure it's all of them? Heck we don't even have digital WBNX, I think that's still analog.

OK, I think I get it, now.

The SD/non-HD version of WNEO/WEAO (45.2/49.2) probably show up in the QAM because they're interjected with the QAM encoding of the -DT signals. It doesn't appear that TWC, at this point, carries those digital-based SD simulcasts on the regular lineup anywhere...after the lineup change.

The "digital cable box" simulcasts of 3/5/8/19/43 are indeed just a cable upconversion of the analog signals, though I submit that most of the locals apparently send their feeds directly via fiber to the cable headend (presumably Lakeside near downtown Cleveland for TWC, the former Adelphia facility?).

So, not quite analog OTA, but SD definitely. I'm guessing 45/49 does not have a fiber feed, but I could be wrong.

Why would you take a digital feed, convert it to analog, then convert it back to digital?

I don't believe for one minute they have a digital feed line for those local stations. I think they pick them up OTA just like the rest of us. Or people who have regular OTA reception.

nickdawg what I don't understand is why are they converting the analog to digital? I can understand doing that with the HD stations but not every shopping channel or local.

Repeat after me - analog channels hog bandwidth.

Analog channels hog bandwidth.

And I repeat, analog channels hog bandwidth.

The more of them they can squeeze into (SD) QAM channels, the more room they have for more channels of both varieties.

TWC execs have been quoted that they want to basically offer "unlmited" HD channels - compared to the wave of HD coming in for the satellite providers with new satellites and MPEG4. The only way they can come close to their promise is to free up analog bandwidth by moving as many channels off analog as possible, and then by eventually deploying SDV.

It has nothing to do whether home shopping channels and the like "should" be in digital, but rather moving them off analog frees up room.

Repeat after me - analog channels hog bandwidth.

There's a pretty good (albeit extremely basic) primer on analog v. digital (http://www.pbs.org/opb/crashcourse/digital_v_analog/) and the bandwidth savings on the PBS site. The article is actually a pretty quick and fun read.

A couple of pages later, the article brings up the benefits of an interactive experience with DTV. It specifically mentions the interactive boxes (QUBE, I think it was called) that TW deployed back in the late 80's and early 90's. I was living in Columbus at the time, and a friend of mine had one of those boxes. It was pretty cool. I remember he could chat with a friend of his down the block.

I also remember having a Hauppage video card in the early 90's that did somewhat of the same thing. NBC and one other broadcaster (I can't remember which one now) were broadcasting essentially web pages in the VBI signals (the same ones that carry the closed captioning information) that the card could display. I can remember watching the olympics on NBC and having a split screen that would display facts and times for the various sports. Even some of the commercials had their own info.

I wish I could remember what that was called, but it's escaping me now.

I wish I could remember what that was called, but it's escaping me now.

Are you thinking of Teletext? I have a Zenith TV set that has Teletext decoding built-in. It used available "white space" in the vertical blanking interval. I used to use it to download news to my screen. I think I also got a birthday message posted there once.

It's pretty much defunct now (at least for consumers). There was a company that was using a version of Teletext that was encrypted and was used to display hauling opportunities on tv screens at truck stops.

There's a pretty good (albeit extremely basic) primer on analog v. digital (http://www.pbs.org/opb/crashcourse/digital_v_analog/) and the bandwidth savings on the PBS site. The article is actually a pretty quick and fun read.

A couple of pages later, the article brings up the benefits of an interactive experience with DTV. It specifically mentions the interactive boxes (QUBE, I think it was called) that TW deployed back in the late 80's and early 90's. I was living in Columbus at the time, and a friend of mine had one of those boxes. It was pretty cool. I remember he could chat with a friend of his down the block.

I also remember having a Hauppage video card in the early 90's that did somewhat of the same thing. NBC and one other broadcaster (I can't remember which one now) were broadcasting essentially web pages in the VBI signals (the same ones that carry the closed captioning information) that the card could display. I can remember watching the olympics on NBC and having a split screen that would display facts and times for the various sports. Even some of the commercials had their own info.

I wish I could remember what that was called, but it's escaping me now.

I remember my old Win98 based gateway box had an application called 'Wavetop' which supposedly did this in combination with the software version of webtv that came preinstalled. Though, by the time I got a working tuner in the machine both webtv and the wavetop system were long dead. Either that or the local stations didn't bother broadcasting the signals any longer.

I also remember a similar device back when the Sega Genesis/Saturn was still hot stuff that allowed daily game downloads and such over supported cable systems.

There were MANY of these systems that were attempted way back then and quite innovative tbh.

Are you thinking of Teletext?

It came to me while I was just putting the kids to bed. It was called Intel Intercast, and I believe it was the US version of Teletext. And it wasn't all that long ago, as VChat pointed out. I had forgotten that Win98 originally had WinTV built in which was supposed to do the same thing. So that makes this stuff only ~10 to 12 years old!

Of course I'm ignoring the fact that in the age of 7 year olds having Myspace pages, 12 years old really is, well, old. :rolleyes:

I also remember the Sega download service. I think Ameritech's cable system supported that.

To bring it back on topic, does anyone know of any plans for the broadcasters to include extra digital information in their streams such as news or other content? The article from the PBS site appears to have been written 10 years ago or so, and I have never heard of anything in the works.

nickdawg what I don't understand is why are they converting the analog to digital? I can understand doing that with the HD stations but not every shopping channel or local.

It doesn't make sense. I really wouldn't have believed you if you didn't say you see Dolby 2.0 on these channels.

Are you sure it's all of them? Heck we don't even have digital WBNX, I think that's still analog.

They're converting the SD local channels to digital. The rest of them may be real digital. They all say Dolby 2.0 and diganostics says QAM 256.

The reason why they have channels like shopping on digital is because ANALOG WASTES BANDWIDTH!! It would be foolish to put crap like that on analog.

And we don't have WBNX digital either(just HD). SD is an OBVIOUS upconversion because there is ghosting and lines in the picture.

It is all of them. Only that public access channel is analog. EVERYTHING else is digital. ESPN, ESPN2, CNN, MSNBC, FX, USA, TNT, FOOD, HGTV, Weather Channel, Cartoon Network, MTV, Bravo, A&E, History, Discovery, TLC... They're all Dolby and QAM 256.

Repeat after me - analog channels hog bandwidth.

Analog channels hog bandwidth.

And I repeat, analog channels hog bandwidth.

The more of them they can squeeze into (SD) QAM channels, the more room they have for more channels of both varieties.



Ha Ha Ha, you are just so funny! So we take digital straight off a fiber and we convert it to analog to all those cheap pions who won't buy a box. Then we convert it back to digital for those of us so we can have completely crappy digital.

Why not do it this way? Pipe the direct digital field to the digital people and then convert the analog? Where does this conversion take place? If it takes place at the headend then why does it make more sense to convert digital to analog and then back to digital? I mean they have to know who gets the digital signal, right?

I fully understand the point of using digital vs analog. I'm not as dumb as you look.:D;) I just don't get the way they do it.

Ha Ha Ha, you are just so funny! So we take digital straight off a fiber and we convert it to analog to all those cheap pions who won't buy a box. Then we convert it back to digital for those of us so we can have completely crappy digital.

The missing part of this equation - at some point, the "end game" will do away with analog entirely. How they get there, I don't know, but analog will go away at some point on TWC and all other cable systems.

Do they supply low-end boxes to all the analog folks, like Massillon/Clear Picture will do next year? Do they fix up their QAM so that's the eventual equivalent of "analog basic"? I don't know, but analog will go away. Sometime down the road.

In the meantime, they can push a bunch of digital/QAM channels up into "Digital Basic"...the new lineup is the first step in that. At some point, a certain number of those channels will stop being put into analog form, and bingo!, more bandwidth for more digital.

I fully understand the point of using digital vs analog. I'm not as dumb as you look.:D;) I just don't get the way they do it.

See above. The duplicative analog/digital stuff will slowly go away, as "digital basic" becomes the new "normal". As each analog channel gets pulled in favor of digital basic, fed by QAM, they get more bandwidth.

What'll be left in analog? The lifeline/local/below 25 lineup, I'm guessing. And at some point, it'll go away entirely, per the above.

This is entirely my own "tea leaf reading" of the cable marketplace, but I think it's not far from what will be reality.

There were MANY of these systems that were attempted way back then and quite innovative tbh.

Though I think they were only using phone lines/modems at the time, something from Control Data was doing this for the old Atari 2600/VCS game system.

You plugged in a cartridge hooked to the thing, and it gave you access to a whole bunch of new games. I bring it up because I think they were looking into other methods of delivery, possibly via TV.

Control Data eventually changed its name to Quantum Computer Services, and dumped the video game angle to start a new online service for the Commodore 64 home computer known as "Q-Link". I know, I was "there" (virtually) at the start in 1985.

Q-Link/Quantum eventually became today's America Online.

Yeah, I saw that WKYC had an SD simulcast channel some time ago. But losing it was not a big deal for me. WKYC has the best analog PQ of any of the locals on TWC, IMO. ABC looks OK, WOIO looks like it has horrible color, WJW looks washed out and too bright, and WBNX/WNEO just look like pure garbage. WVIZ looks decent.

Speaking of SD channels, has anyone noticed the audio sucks on SD WOIO? The audio seems to be 2x louder than any of the other channels around it and sounds like it is being broadcast through a CB radio.

Though I think they were only using phone lines/modems at the time, something from Control Data was doing this for the old Atari 2600/VCS game system.

You plugged in a cartridge hooked to the thing, and it gave you access to a whole bunch of new games. I bring it up because I think they were looking into other methods of delivery, possibly via TV.

Control Data eventually changed its name to Quantum Computer Services, and dumped the video game angle to start a new online service for the Commodore 64 home computer known as "Q-Link". I know, I was "there" (virtually) at the start in 1985.

Q-Link/Quantum eventually became today's America Online.

Actually, not so. Maybe some systems that required a return path relied heavily on a dialup-based system, but ones like the earlier ones mentioned here which were happy being downstream-only all commonly used the existing cable infrastructure to 'multicast' the data to people.

And if they required a return path, such as the first DCT's Time Warner offered when digital cable first came out on just a one-way plant, they used a simple phone modem for that use while the cable line remained in use for the bandwidth-heavy downstream.

The missing part of this equation - at some point, the "end game" will do away with analog entirely. How they get there, I don't know, but analog will go away at some point on TWC and all other cable systems.

Do they supply low-end boxes to all the analog folks, like Massillon/Clear Picture will do next year? Do they fix up their QAM so that's the eventual equivalent of "analog basic"? I don't know, but analog will go away. Sometime down the road.

In the meantime, they can push a bunch of digital/QAM channels up into "Digital Basic"...the new lineup is the first step in that. At some point, a certain number of those channels will stop being put into analog form, and bingo!, more bandwidth for more digital.

What'll be left in analog? The lifeline/local/below 25 lineup, I'm guessing. And at some point, it'll go away entirely, per the above.

This is entirely my own "tea leaf reading" of the cable marketplace, but I think it's not far from what will be reality.

This is what I think. Since you can get an analog converter for about 10 to 15 bucks with the coupon and everyone who has OTA only will have to get one, cable has a big chance to cash in.

First, there will be so many people who still will not get the message. I am saying this based on my life experience. Do you know how many people do not even open their mail? Heck my wife doesn't balance her own checking account. Fortunately I balance the joint one and my own. When I married her 11 years ago she was one of the "throw it on the desk" until I look at it people. I've since got her on the right path on that.

And I'll bet even many of you guys do that same thing. Doesn't make you a bad person, just that we get overwhelmed by so much junk we can't tell what's important and what is.

So these coupons come in the mail that people request. Now it took a bit for mine to get here. How many people do you think will actually open it? Can you see people just throwing it away thinking it's junk mail?

Then wham, 2/9/09 (or whatever the date is) hits. Those who kept their coupons and haven't used them run out to get the box only to find out that there is this little issue about reception in some areas.

So along comes TW and says hey, listen. We will sign you up, free install and for just 20 bucks you can have our digital converter. Almost the same price as the coupon. And you won't have to go up on your roof and rearrange your antenna or buy a new antenna. Of course there is this monthly fee, but look at all the trouble we will save you. And will they be mad at TW? Nope, they will blame the government.

As a CSR I see this all the time. And of course it's always my fault they didn't open their mail.:D

Just something to think about.

Actually, not so. Maybe some systems that required a return path relied heavily on a dialup-based system, but ones like the earlier ones mentioned here which were happy being downstream-only all commonly used the existing cable infrastructure to 'multicast' the data to people.

I already said that I'm pretty sure the CD system used a dialup modem...that's how they eventually migrated to a dialup online service. I just mentioned it here because I thought I'd heard they were investigating using downstream cable bandwidth at some point. This was about the time the old Warner Cable was deploying "Qube" down in Columbus.

I think they basically abandoned the move because the Control Data game business got converted to the online service.

I wasn't at all associated with the company at that point - and even after "Q-Link" kicked in, I was only a remote person - so I could get getting some of the facts wrong.

Oops, my error...Control Video, not Control Data.

Much more here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_Online#History
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gameline

Ah. My bad. Must have missed that part of your original post.

Ah. My bad. Must have missed that part of your original post.

None of the "Gameline" article mentions the possibility of using cable bandwidth, so maybe it was just rumor floating around the Q-Link universe at the time. I knew some folks down in Vienna (Virginia, suburban DC), and even visited the HQ in 1986, I think it was.

"Gameline" was old news and abandoned by then, but I'm sure the hubbub over "Qube" had some of the folks in Vienna wondering if there was a path for a future one-way delivery along cable lines.

Of course, no one in 1986 knew what would happen in the early 2000s. :D

Just in case anyone cares, looks like Warner has done another channel realignment for the QAM down here in Canton. WBNX-HD is now on QAM channel 78-4. There were a couple different channels added too, including WVIZ-HD (which we've already had WEAO/WNEO-HD for quite a while, and they are simulcast so...).
What I'd really like is WVIZ-DT, because my kids like to watch the SD channel in the mornings, and the SD always looks like crapola.

Anybody using QAM in the Cleveland TWC area get re-aligned too? I'm up in richmond heights, and noticed yesterday that none of my "special qam" (tnt, dsc, tbs, etc) channels were there anymore. I didn't do a re-scan, but I will when I get home tonight.

Warner is slowly but surely eliminating all the "bonus" channels on QAM. Soon enough it will be locals and PBS only, since that's what it's supposed to be anyway. Looks like no more free lunch :(.

Anybody using QAM in the Cleveland TWC area get re-aligned too? I'm up in richmond heights, and noticed yesterday that none of my "special qam" (tnt, dsc, tbs, etc) channels were there anymore. I didn't do a re-scan, but I will when I get home tonight.
Lighting Guy - I experienced the same thing, lost TBS 88-3, TNT 88-11, STO 106-1, etc. Did a re-scan but did not find them anywhere else. Let me konw if you have any luck.

I have Lifeline Basic on TW in Canton. I get 45/49 SD (very crappy picture). Then via QAM I also get 45/49 DT AND WNEO/WEAO HD on a different channel. Recently, they've just (re)added WVIZ-HD (I also get WVIZ SD). There has never been a WVIZ-DT channel though.
It is my understanding that TWC imports WNEO analog from Salem and uses it for all but a couple of headends to the northeast of Cleveland. Go figure. Whatever they are doing to the analog signal is making it look "crappy" on the analog tier. (WNEO analog off air on 45 looks good) Hopefully they will begin using the digital feed soon to downconvert to analog, as some other systems are doing. I am told that WNEO 45 analog is slated to be permanently shut down in November and they will be digital only, moving the digital to CH 45 and a top of the tower antenna. PBS plans to make their HD channel their primary channel in December, but it will be a mix of local SD/HD and PBS SD/HD just like the commercial networks.

Call TWC and complain about the crappy analog signal... I bet the CSR will blame the station.

Here in SW Canton (Time Warner) I've been getting a number of school/community access channels on my QAM tuner..

87-14 North Canton City Schools (With Canton City content but with other programming specific to North Canton)

94-27 Canton City Schools
94-29 Lake Local
94-31 City Of New Franklin (Summit County)
94-32 City of Green (Summit County)
94-33 GlenOak Local Schools

Also WTOV-9 Steubenville seems to be gone, as well as most of the cable channels..I ony get Discovery and Familyland at the moment along with the Local channels in HD..

Another thing..It seems you can do a rescan of the qam channels several times a day and get a different number each time..

Tim, you don't get 78-1 through 78-4? Try those for PBS and WBNX-HD.

Tim, you don't get 78-1 through 78-4? Try those for PBS and WBNX-HD.

Smarty-Pants..

I get those most of the time..With the way Qam works, just today I scanned and lost them..then the next time they were there..New technology is winderful isnt it?..LOL

Ya know, I think it's just because they are working on the system. Trying to get everything set and aligned where they want it. I have the feeling it won't get much better for a while. They have a lot of work to do to catch up with satellite providers, and as we already know, TW will be taking their sweet ole time getting it done. I would say they should be moving WBNX-HD down to 55-1 soon. We shall see...

Also WTOV-9 Steubenville seems to be gone, as well as most of the cable channels..I ony get Discovery and Familyland at the moment along with the Local channels in HD..

I'm surprised WTOV was available to you at all. I know the former Adelphia folks in Dover/New Philly get it, but I'm pretty sure 9/Steubenville hasn't been on Canton's TWC system in ages.

We used to get it on Warner Cable up here in Akron back a LONG time ago!

While looking through the PDF lineups at TWCGuide.com (http://www.twcguide.com/), I notice they appear to have removed the old pre-realignment lineups.

Is there anyone out there at this point, who didn't get the digital cable lineup change yet?

While looking through the PDF lineups at TWCGuide.com (http://www.twcguide.com/), I notice they appear to have removed the old pre-realignment lineups.

Is there anyone out there at this point, who didn't get the digital cable lineup change yet?

What new digital cable lineup? Is there going to be a change?:eek:

What new digital cable lineup? Is there going to be a change?:eek:

You're funny, hookbill.

:D

and will Time Warner EVER add the NFL network to its service ?

Plus I saw where ML Baseball is starting their own Network as of 01/01/09..I wonder if Time Warner will say No to them like they have to the NFL Network and the Big Ten Network.

wish someone from Time Warner would post on here to give us some kind of Update..even if its BS..lol..

My guess is Time Warner will want to charge some absurd extra fee for the MLB network and there will be the same disagreement. Hell will freeze over before NE Ohio gets Big Ten and NFL on cable.

I'm surprised WTOV was available to you at all. I know the former Adelphia folks in Dover/New Philly get it, but I'm pretty sure 9/Steubenville hasn't been on Canton's TWC system in ages.

We used to get it on Warner Cable up here in Akron back a LONG time ago!

When I was still on Dish, I had a wire left over from a previous TWC install in My wife's and my bedroom. When I purchased our JVC HDTV last year we put it in that bedroom..Just for kicks, I hooked the wire up..Was when I discovered Qam..I was getting WTOV-9, WYFX 17 Youngstown and even WTVG-13 Toledo on the Qam Tuner. Since I signed up for TWC's digital package last week, TOV has been gone..WTVG and WYFX were long gone..I remember The old WSTV being on Warner Cable as far back as the 60's (Stark Cable)..With WTRF Wheeling and the Youngstown Channels..

My guess is Time Warner will want to charge some absurd extra fee for the MLB network and there will be the same disagreement. Hell will freeze over before NE Ohio gets Big Ten and NFL on cable.

Agreed. They want to put it all in their "Sports Tier" package and MLB adding their own network will further complicated the issue.

Here's how I see it. I have in the past purchased MLB Extra Innings the last two years. I stopped this year because I simply don't have time for watching the games since I'm working full time.

So if I was still purchasing MLB EI and TW does what I suspect they will do I wouldn't buy it UNLESS it was cheaper the purchasing MLB EI on it's own. Which isn't exactly cheap.

Speaking of Big 10 Network, does anybody know if the deal recently reached with Comcast in which the network basically backed off of their staunch demands will have any effect on Armstrong's ability to negotiate? TV21Chief intimated that Comcast was Armstrong's advertising agent/broker, so I wonder if perhaps there's a chance we might be seeing something soon down here?

Since I signed up for TWC's digital package last week, TOV has been gone..

I don't think the two events are related. I'm just wondering how Canton had it for so long on QAM! I know the Erie PA folks, some of them (I think the legacy TWC people) get Cleveland locals on QAM.

There must be some explanation for this, as far as how TWC feeds its headends or something.

Here in Former Adelphia Land, I've never seen out of market locals, from Steubenville/Wheeling or anywhere else, on QAM.

Yeah. I've noticed this phenomena myself. Somehow TWC is feeding an amalgamation of channel lineups to all it's headends in this general 'region' and just separates it by area at the set-top probably to save on having to put individual channel encoders in each individual headend.

Back when I had passport and had manual tuning capability on it, I found we had a number of channels available here in the youngstown-ish area (legacy TWC) like WGN and WBNX which were otherwise completely missing off the guide and even still are now. Used to sit and watch the countless reruns of AFV on WGN this way. >>

I'm not sure if this is the case and these channels are still around. Mystro has unfortunately lost this capability, and I don't know if those channels were encrypted or not so checking on anything but a set-top would be questionable (there are a buttload of blank/encrypted QAMs that show up on my plasma, the few that are unencrypted seem to just be locals, Discovery ch (SD), A&E, a shopping channel or two, a couple of the religious channels, and all the PPV/OD/Sports package preview channels).

Smarty-Pants..

I get those most of the time..With the way Qam works, just today I scanned and lost them..then the next time they were there..New technology is winderful isnt it?..LOL

Tim, if you're intermittently losing digital channels, you might have a signal level issue. Go into your set's diagnostics and look at the signal level while you're tuned to one of the QAMs. SCTE specs call for +15 to -15dbmv for SD qams, and +15 to -12dbmv (note the tighter minimum level) for HD qams. You can lose channels if the signal level is too low, but you can also lose them if the signal is too hot due to the set's front end overloading from a hot signal.

I know the Erie PA folks, some of them (I think the legacy TWC people) get Cleveland locals on QAM.


Yes, my in-laws who now live in the city get all the HD-QAM locals out of Cleveland (except for WBNX). When they first got their HD set last Fall, the only local station that was broadcasting anything in HD was PBS WQLN-54. Just before Christmas, Fox-66 started started programming in HD. Just a month ago or so, NBC WICU-12 showed up in HD on their QAM as well. Still no word as to when ABC WJET-24 or CBS WSEE-35 will start broadcasting in HD. Last Fall, the GM of WSEE was quoted as saying they would never go to HD, just SD-digital. I suspect CBS has/will straighten him out, however!

Lighting Guy - I experienced the same thing, lost TBS 88-3, TNT 88-11, STO 106-1, etc. Did a re-scan but did not find them anywhere else. Let me konw if you have any luck.

I did finally do a re-scan. Sad news, no "extra channels" unencrypted anymore. I guess the potentially good news for those of you who pay for more than lifeline, is they reorganized the QAM channels quite a bit, making things make more sense:eek:. Hopefully its just another step in the direction of uniformity, then SDV.

Hopefully it's a step in the direction of making EVERYONE get a box!!

Speaking of Time Warner.....

Has anyone else had problems with TWC Cable Internet lately?

The last few days for the first time in a long while, I've had issues getting a connection. The signal goes in and out for some reason. And yesterday, for time blocks at a time, I can't get a signal at all. I've done all the usual checks. (Ie: hard reset and reboot of modem, router and computer).

Any ideas? I have a feeling the issue is on TW's end....

Speaking of Time Warner.....

Has anyone else had problems with TWC Cable Internet lately?

The last few days for the first time in a long while, I've had issues getting a connection. The signal goes in and out for some reason. And yesterday, for time blocks at a time, I can't get a signal at all. I've done all the usual checks. (Ie: hard reset and reboot of modem, router and computer).

Any ideas? I have a feeling the issue is on TW's end....

No problems here. Sounds like you may have a problem on your end.

They are pretty good at diagnosing problems on their end with your internet. Call customer service and hit the internet button. They found an issue with mine when I lost connection and even though they brought it back up they still saw another problem so they did a truck roll.

Their internet service is light years above their cable tv service.

No problems here. Sounds like you may have a problem on your end.

They are pretty good at diagnosing problems on their end with your internet. Call customer service and hit the internet button. They found an issue with mine when I lost connection and even though they brought it back up they still saw another problem so they did a truck roll.

Their internet service is light years above their cable tv service.

Will do. Thanks Hook.

Totally off topic but I have no where else to post this. On behalf of all the fans of the Los Angeles Dodgers, I would like to thank the Cleveland Indians for trading Casey Blake to us.

Good luck with the rest of your season!:D

From the LA Times, heres what you got:

Meloan, 24, was moved from the bullpen to the rotation this spring. He was 5-10 with a 4.97 earned-run average in 21 games for triple-A Las Vegas. A September call-up last season, he posted an 11.05 ERA in five games for the Dodgers.

Santana is by far the more intriguing prospect. The 22-year-old was hitting .323 with 14 home runs for Class-A Inland Empire and his 96 runs batted in were the most in the California League. Santana hit only .223 for Great Lakes, a low Class-A team, last season.

Has Sharpiro been tested for drugs lately?

Ths just came to my inbox 5 seconds ago...

Indians Acquire CA Carlos Santana & RHP Jon Meloan

The Indians picked up promising catcher prospect Carlos Santana and Triple-A pitcher Jon Meloan from the Dodgers on Saturday in exchange for veteran third baseman Casey Blake. Santana, 22, is a slugging switch-hitting catching prospect who currently has 14 homers, 96 RBI and a .323 average at Class A Inland Empire. Meloan, 24, pitched briefly for the Dodgers last year in a September call-up. He is 5-10 with a 4.97 ERA at Triple-A Las Vegas. He was ranked as the organization’s No. 8 prospect by Baseball America entering this season.

I have to admit, I have NOT been following the Tribe too closely this season. I have been very busy with other things (jobs, wife, 1yr old, 3yr old :)). So I don't know too much about what is going on these days. I think it's safe to say that this season is basically a "wash", so who cares :D.

http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080726&content_id=3198984&vkey=news_cle&fext=.jsp&c_id=cle

I have to admit, I have NOT been following the Tribe too closely this season. I have been very busy with other things (jobs, wife, 1yr old, 3yr old :)). So I don't know too much about what is going on these days. I think it's safe to say that this season is basically a "wash", so who cares :D.

http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080726&content_id=3198984&vkey=news_cle&fext=.jsp&c_id=cle

Did you not see my post above yours? The real stats for those guys last year are pretty bad.

Once again, thank you Cleveland!

Did you not see my post above yours? The real stats for those guys last year are pretty bad.

Once again, thank you Cleveland!

Umm ya, I saw it. Just thought maybe you wanted more info. Something that happens all the time in this game though, is that stats tend to change from place to place. Someone may not do as well playing with one team compared to another. They are ALL talented players, and emotion plays a big factor in all of that. Just to keep it real, what happens if Casey breaks his wrist. Then his stats will be zero :rolleyes:.

Umm ya, I saw it. Just thought maybe you wanted more info. Something that happens all the time in this game though, is that stats tend to change from place to place. Someone may not do as well playing with one team compared to another. They are ALL talented players, and emotion plays a big factor in all of that. Just to keep it real, what happens if Casey breaks his wrist. Then his stats will be zero :rolleyes:.

Heck, God forbid but the whole team may die in a plane crash for all we know.

And 11.05 era in 5 games in the majors to me is very telling. It's telling me that he doesn't belong in the majors.;)

Anyway if either of these guys do become stars chances are the Tribe will trade them.

Maybe Manny Rameriz will wave his no trade contract and come back to the Tribe. He seems to be suffering from a mysterious knee injury which an MRI can't seem to find.:rolleyes:

Anyway to get back on topic, I'm getting irritated by the fact they keep interrupting the game with the thunderstorm warning in someplace called Trumbell and Mahoney Counties, which I believe are located either in Canada or Lake Erie. I live in Geauga County so kindly quit interrupting a pretty good game between the Red Sox and Yankees.

So the Dodgers give up two prospects to rent a so-so player for two months, a player that the Indians weren't going to re-sign anyway.

Sounds like the Indians got the better of the deal and the Indians weren't in the race anyway. I think it's the Dodgers GM who has been smoking something.



Totally off topic but I have no where else to post this. On behalf of all the fans of the Los Angeles Dodgers, I would like to thank the Cleveland Indians for trading Casey Blake to us.

Good luck with the rest of your season!:D

From the LA Times, heres what you got:

Meloan, 24, was moved from the bullpen to the rotation this spring. He was 5-10 with a 4.97 earned-run average in 21 games for triple-A Las Vegas. A September call-up last season, he posted an 11.05 ERA in five games for the Dodgers.

Santana is by far the more intriguing prospect. The 22-year-old was hitting .323 with 14 home runs for Class-A Inland Empire and his 96 runs batted in were the most in the California League. Santana hit only .223 for Great Lakes, a low Class-A team, last season.

Has Sharpiro been tested for drugs lately?

So the Dodgers give up two prospects to rent a so-so player for two months, a player that the Indians weren't going to re-sign anyway.

Sounds like the Indians got the better of the deal and the Indians weren't in the race anyway. I think it's the Dodgers GM who has been smoking something.

Only time will tell. Face it that one pitcher got clobbered in the majors and the other prosepect seems like he has possibilities. So the Indians will bring him up to speed, make him a star, and trade him.

The problem for the Tribe is that they just can't afford to keep their really good players once they are eligable for free agency. They have to somehow win a World Series to be able to do that and they had that chance last year.

Will Pronk ever be what he was two years ago? Man that guy was hitting grand slams at the rate of aound one a month. Last year even though the Tribe got to be where they want to be he still was just a shadow of his former self.

And Sizemore. When is he up for free agency?

This team is rebuilding, I don't care what they say.

And as far as the Dodgers go, these are not the Dodgers I knew when I left L.A. Ever since the O'Mallys sold the team they stopped playing Dodger baseball. You want to know who plays Dodger baseball? The Angels, with a staff of ex Dodgers coaches and manager.

Under the O'Mallys the Dodgers won more World Series and played in more World Series then any other team from 1958 to 1990. Two managers in 40 years!

So my comment about "Thank you Cleveland" really was more just trying to stir the pot, and I succeded a bit.;) But did the Dodgers really get a good trade? That I really don't know.

Is LA even in "contention"? If so, then it is more likely they're willing to give, in order to get one player that can help propell them to the post season. We shall see... :).

I was flipping through the channels last night to find something for the kids to watch before bed. Saw Pater Pan was on ABC in HD. That was some pretty damn good PQ if I say so myself. I don't know about the SQ. I only have a tv and dvd player in my living which is where we watched it.

Under the O'Mallys the Dodgers won more World Series and played in more World Series then any other team from 1958 to 1990.


Wrong on both accounts! The Dodgers won 5 world series between 1958 and 1990. The New York Yankees also won 5 world series between the same years.

And, the Yankees appeared in 10 world series. The Dodgers only appeared in 9.

You need to check your facts before you post them as truth.

Wrong on both accounts! The Dodgers won 5 world series between 1958 and 1990. The New York Yankees also won 5 world series between the same years.

And, the Yankees appeared in 10 world series. The Dodgers only appeared in 9

You need to check your facts before you post them as truth.

I did check my facts. I made two mistakes. First mistake was when I did the original check I based it on from 1959 to 1990. Yankees: 1961, 1962,
1977, 1978 Championships. Appearances 1960, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 76,77,78,81.


Los Angeles Dodgers: 1959, 1963, 1965, 1981, 1988. That gives them one more championship.

Appearances: 1959, 63, 65, 66, 74, 76, 77, 81, 88.

I'm still wrong however because I did miss the 1976 appearance of the Yankees against the Reds.

Still based on my original statement I was wrong about World Series Championships as well, and also on appearances.

I think when I originally researched this I think I saw the Oakland A's in 1976.

Anyway, you are right I'm wrong.

But that's still a pretty darn good run.:o

I tried to get out of it to see if I could go further back to the Brooklyn Dodgers but the fact is that even though they beat the Yankees in 1955, they lost again in 1956 to the Yankees. So I can't go with that either.:o

And everyone knows that the Yankees are way ahead of anyone in all other areas.

Is LA even in "contention"? If so, then it is more likely they're willing to give, in order to get one player that can help propell them to the post season. We shall see... :).



They are 1 game behind Arizona. They are also 1 game under .500. But yes, they are in contention.:p

D* is adding more than 30 HD Channels the middle of next month which will increase total to over 130. Additionally, and most surprising; they will begin transmitting movies in 1080p before the end of this year. I presume the HR20 series DVR will handle the 1080p.
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/news/2008/07/directv_remains_clear_hd_leader_with_130_hd_channels_on_tap_ for_mid-august.php

D* is adding more than 30 HD Channels the middle of next month which will increase total to over 130. Additionally, and most surprising; they will begin transmitting movies in 1080p before the end of this year. I presume the HR20 series DVR will handle the 1080p.
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/news/2008/07/directv_remains_clear_hd_leader_with_130_hd_channels_on_tap_ for_mid-august.php

Back around 1990 I worked at Hughes Aircraft in El Segundo CA. They had just become part of General Motors and the real name was Hughes Aircraft, a Division of Hughes Electronics.

I remember going to meetings and hearing about this thing about mini satellite dishes and how they would be used in rural areas where people could not get cable. All sounded strange back then.

Now look at it today!

D* is adding more than 30 HD Channels the middle of next month which will increase total to over 130. Additionally, and most surprising; they will begin transmitting movies in 1080p before the end of this year. I presume the HR20 series DVR will handle the 1080p.
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/news/2008/07/directv_remains_clear_hd_leader_with_130_hd_channels_on_tap_ for_mid-august.php

how can Time Warner keep up when they are so far behind Dish and direct..

will Cable ever come close to what you can get from these 2 companies..

yes, in about 2 years

yes, in about 2 years

what will cause Cable to catch up with Dish/Direct in content and HD Programing...

plus why 2 years..

and not sooner

what will cause Cable to catch up with Dish/Direct in content and HD Programing...

plus why 2 years..

and not sooner

SDV: Switched Digital Video
They need to update their infrastructure.
2 years might be optimistic, but we can hope. :cool: