You guys here need to get out more. There's tons of discussion in the main HDTV forum about picture quality and bandwidth. Frame rates and bandwidth were criticisms of the Olympics this year on NBC(which looked horrible at times). Wonder how it would have looked without WX+ eating bandwidth?

Serious videophiles can tell the difference. Even the average viewer can see macroblocking on fast action. And it only gets WORSE on 1080i channels and when more subs are added. Compare WOIO CBS before and after 19-2. After, it looks horrible. I've seen blurriness and breakup on shows like CSI: Miami. Sure, cable uses less bandwidth, but they only pass what the station gives them. If the station puts out crap, we get crap. Crap in---Crap out!!

As far as WFMJ, that is the perfect example of a useless channel. Who needs the CW in SDTV, especially if it is taking away from the NBC station. Get a stronger antenna and you can have WBNX, in HDTV. Or get cable. TWC has a special FOX HD channel only available on cable from WYFX. Plus, I think WUAB and WBNX are still carried on other cable systems from the days when Y-Town didn't even have a FOX station. I really wish I could see 33. I'd love to see the hot mess caused by having ABC, MNTV and a weather sub. Even though ABC is 720p, I highly doubt that WYTV looks as good as subchannel free WEWS.

Someone here once said this DTV transition is not meant as a "technology upgrade". But this is exactly what it is---at the expense of the HDTV viewers. After the transition, OTA viewers won't have the same channels they had before, there will be more. Thanks to the unnecessary use of subchannels.

Well here is the way I am seeing it and it's pretty clear-cut for what it's worth:

The DTV transition wasn't meant to please the videophile types. The reason for any HDTV use has been for future proofing. The videophile types obviously have the money for other subscription services like cable and satellite.

OTA (both analog since the VERY early days and digital alike) has, since its inception, been a reliance on the frugal types and those who otherwise can't afford subscription tv services. This whole govt coupon/converter box mess is a prime example of the case.

Yes, you get macroblocking and quality loss in fast action scenes and all that stuff, but you are getting it for FREE. HD service for FREE. DirecTV certainly won't give you that. Time Warner gives it but still requires paying for digital service.

My advice? Quit complaining. The subchannel feature of DTV is a much welcome feature for people wanting the CONTENT and not uber blueray-esque quality. And FWIW, it has quite a bit of potential.

It's not FREE for me!! Same with Dish or Direct. You still gotta pay for cable to get even the local channels without an antenna. If I'm paying for it, I want it as good as possible. I could give a rat's ass about antenna viewers. They're well aware of what they're getting. Antenna viewers know that if they want more TV options, there's cable and satellite. If they want CONTENT, PAY FOR IT!!! I have to pay for it. And it pisses me off to have to pay for CRAP, that others get for free---and the reason it's crap is they want "choice". I don't want "This TV", "Me TV", "My Network TV", Mexicrap, etc. I want to watch a football game on CBS without macroblocking. I want to enjoy the Olympics without the analog channel looking better than the HD channel.

To all the "new content" providers out there, both current and future, I hope they ALL go the way of The Tube. :evilsmiley:

How is it not free for you? I don't recall any OTA broadcasters going subscription model on us. :confused:

If you are referring to the cost of getting better antennas or stuff like that, that is a one time cost and considered more customer equipment than anything else. I'm talking about an actual RECURRING SUBSCRIPTION cost here. OTA is FREE, plain and simple.

In fact, many stations outside of big budget types like WKYC are barely breaking even with the need to upgrade their equipment and whatnot and being able to add on subchannels to include more advertising is actually a PLUS for them.

In my not so humble opinion, you are barking up the wrong tree. In fact, you aren't even in the right park at this rate. I'm sure when analog was the only thing available OTA, you were really complaining about the quality on that one, huh?

Fact is, compared to cable and satellite offerings, you are getting GREAT quality with OTA digital even with the subchannels. Don't expect blueray quality because you certainly aren't going to get it no matter how hard you try.

Anyways, I'm done on the subject. It's really quite simple in that OTA is FREE (no matter how hard you try to contest it) while cable and sat are free. And the quality you get now with OTA digital is AMAZING to boot compared to the old days. The old adage applies: Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:



Great. Bandwidth will still be ROBBED from the HD main channel so the four people who get WKYC OTA can have a weather channel. But it won't be on cable. WHY THE F**K NOT!!!! WOIO's piece of sh*t channel is on cable, why not WKYC? What a f**king waste of bandwidth to have something for OTA only.

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

I'm with ya brother, I'm with ya.

From the PBS45/49...errr...Western Reserve PBS member magazine The Alternative:

"Our application to the FCC for maximization of the WNEO signal has been approved. This will allow us to increase our Salem transmitter power from 44 kW to 500 kW. The power increase is set to take place on Feb. 18, 2009, but we have filed for a waiver to allow us to increase by Jan. 5."

Also:

"Channels 45.1 and 49.1 are now the primary program stream. They are high definition channels that air the same program lineup as the current analog channel. For the time being, Channels 45.2 and 49.2 will air a standard definition version of the program schedule. In the future, these channels and an additional channel, 45.3, will offer special-interest programming, the content of which is yet to be determined."

Wow. I'm sorry, but that is totally ass-backwards thinking.

:D:D:D:D:D

Yep, it's like living in the Bizzarro world.

When I was a kid the early 60's, Bizarro world was in Superman and Action comics. They had Bizzaro Lois, Bizarro Superman etc. and I guess what you would call a mission statement: Us hate beauty. Us love ugliness. Is big crime to do something correct in Bizarro world.

I believe this is where nickdawg lives. He rants on Christmas. I've never seen any quality problems from channels with subchannels and I believe you would have to be a videophile to see them, if in fact they exist. I'm still looking for the black line he sees on WEWS, I watched the Thanksgiving show for Boston Legal last night and I didn't see anything. I walked up to the set to look at it. Nothing. And he's so tight he squeaks.

Then there are his views on DVR's, his expectations and rationalizing of Tim Warner. All rather unique from where I stand (or sit as the case may be).

Having said all that this forum is so much fun with him in it. I just love to watch him go off, you never know what he's going to gripe about next!

:D:D:D:D:D

Yep, it's like living in the Bizzarro world.

When I was a kid the early 60's, Bizarro world was in Superman and Action comics. They had Bizzaro Lois, Bizarro Superman etc. and I guess what you would call a mission statement: Us hate beauty. Us love ugliness. Is big crime to do something correct in Bizarro world.

I believe this is where nickdawg lives. He rants on Christmas. I've never seen any quality problems from channels with subchannels and I believe you would have to be a videophile to see them, if in fact they exist. I'm still looking for the black line he sees on WEWS, I watched the Thanksgiving show for Boston Legal last night and I didn't see anything. I walked up to the set to look at it. Nothing. And he's so tight he squeaks.

Then there are his views on DVR's, his expectations and rationalizing of Tim Warner. All rather unique from where I stand (or sit as the case may be).

Having said all that this forum is so much fun with him in it. I just love to watch him go off, you never know what he's going to gripe about next!
Hook, I believe a lot has to do with the differences in quality and design from TV to TV. Some sets handle the processing better (and faster) than others. When I first got my Panny LCD, now going on 3-1/2 years ago, I experimented with the various pass-through, conversion and fixed modes from my SA8300 and, for my set-up, I found leaving it fixed at 720P gave the most consistent and superior results with SD programming. I can zoom most letterbox SD shows and still have a very good quality picture - not as good as HD, but definately better than watching a postage stamp surrounded by black!

Hook, I believe a lot has to do with the differences in quality and design from TV to TV. Some sets handle the processing better (and faster) than others. When I first got my Panny LCD, now going on 3-1/2 years ago, I experimented with the various pass-through, conversion and fixed modes from my SA8300 and, for my set-up, I found leaving it fixed at 720P gave the most consistent and superior results with SD programming. I can zoom most letterbox SD shows and still have a very good quality picture - not as good as HD, but definately better than watching a postage stamp surrounded by black!

I totally understand that. My LG is much better in so many ways then my Sony Wega.

My old Sony couldn't get the full logo bug in the window. On WJW it was FO and part of the X and you could see the 8 but only 1/2 of the period and nothing else.

hookbill, I'll go up and check on the SA8000 and the shopping channels, presumably if I can remember how to kick the SA8000 into diagnostic mode again. :D

I'm somewhere in the middle in this whole subchannel/bandwidth thing.

I have noticed, even on my little 32" LCD HD set, that fast motion on NBC's Sunday Night Football would induce macroblocking. I don't know if that's because 3.2 has been pulling down bandwidth for Weather Plus or if there are other issues (older encoding equipment, etc.)...for example, at least early on, WKYC's encoder would "fuzz out" after any particularly fast graphics in HD on SNF.

I've also seen macroblocking on WOIO since they put up "WeatherNow" on 19.2...but not as severe.

As far as content goes, I would not at all mind seeing Retro TV Network show up on one of the local subchannels, but I'd prefer it to be 43.2 - I don't watch MyNetwork TV at all, and I wouldn't care how the HD looks on 43.1.

the original quote came from the blog on WKYC's website, but the required legal notice that TW posted end of November ( required 30 days notice)
just notes that 'WKYC Weather Plus is ceasing operations on 12/31/08.'

Dont know if the blogger for the station has been told something different or was just assuming

You're both right. :D

"WKYC Weather Plus" is going away 12/31/08, because NBC Weather Plus is going away. The TWC system is dumping it at that point.

The blog says WKYC will attempt to recreate a new weather channel - they may even call it "Weather Plus" for continuity, and even use the local graphics being used now. But it won't be the same channel as exists until tomorrow, since the underlying national content is going away.

The audio/video dropouts on WOIO-HD (through Directv) has been atrocious lately. Trying to watch the Browns game these past few weeks a dropout occurs every 90 seconds or so. Very annoying. I even get dropouts watching the daily news. I have zero problems with any other HD channel, local or not.

It's to the point now where I don't even turn on WOIO-HD. Pathetic!

Also having breakups on WOIO-HD via D*. I've seen this same problem on other CBS games earlier in the season.

One of the pregame shows called this the "Toilet Bowl" :D

hook, i believe a lot has to do with the differences in quality and design from tv to tv. Some sets handle the processing better (and faster) than others. When i first got my panny lcd, now going on 3-1/2 years ago, i experimented with the various pass-through, conversion and fixed modes from my sa8300 and, for my set-up, i found leaving it fixed at 720p gave the most consistent and superior results with sd programming. I can zoom most letterbox sd shows and still have a very good quality picture - not as good as hd, but definately better than watching a postage stamp surrounded by black!

;)

.........................

You're both right. :D

"WKYC Weather Plus" is going away 12/31/08, because NBC Weather Plus is going away. The TWC system is dumping it at that point.

The blog says WKYC will attempt to recreate a new weather channel - they may even call it "Weather Plus" for continuity, and even use the local graphics being used now. But it won't be the same channel as exists until tomorrow, since the underlying national content is going away.

If it's a local broadcast isn't the cable company required to carry it?

Having said all that this forum is so much fun with him in it. I just love to watch him go off, you never know what he's going to gripe about next!

What's the deal with airline food?? :p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p

:D:D:D:D

hookbill, I'll go up and check on the SA8000 and the shopping channels, presumably if I can remember how to kick the SA8000 into diagnostic mode again. :D

I'm somewhere in the middle in this whole subchannel/bandwidth thing.

I have noticed, even on my little 32" LCD HD set, that fast motion on NBC's Sunday Night Football would induce macroblocking. I don't know if that's because 3.2 has been pulling down bandwidth for Weather Plus or if there are other issues (older encoding equipment, etc.)...for example, at least early on, WKYC's encoder would "fuzz out" after any particularly fast graphics in HD on SNF.

I've also seen macroblocking on WOIO since they put up "WeatherNow" on 19.2...but not as severe.

As far as content goes, I would not at all mind seeing Retro TV Network show up on one of the local subchannels, but I'd prefer it to be 43.2 - I don't watch MyNetwork TV at all, and I wouldn't care how the HD looks on 43.1.

**APPLAUSE** That was the point. These subchannels should be on SD Only or non-Big Five networks. NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX, CW should NOT have any subchannels, especially CBS and FOX with their sports programming and NBC during the Olympics.

You're both right. :D

"WKYC Weather Plus" is going away 12/31/08, because NBC Weather Plus is going away. The TWC system is dumping it at that point.

The blog says WKYC will attempt to recreate a new weather channel - they may even call it "Weather Plus" for continuity, and even use the local graphics being used now. But it won't be the same channel as exists until tomorrow, since the underlying national content is going away.

And that's where the waste is. WKYC is pulling a WOIO. A pointless local only channel. I'll bet the off time from where network programming used to run will be filled with commercials. That's why this thing is still running, the cheap bastards at Gannett know it's a cash cow. An extra channel to run(and sell) commercials on. BRILLIANT!! And we all know how cheap Gannett has been lately. :rolleyes:

If it's a local broadcast isn't the cable company required to carry it?

Must carry only applies to the main subchannel, and stations can opt out of must-carry in order to obtain "retransmission consent," which can include compensation one way or another, as well as carriage for the subchannels in the agreement.

That's why this thing is still running, the cheap bastards at Gannett know it's a cash cow. An extra channel to run(and sell) commercials on. BRILLIANT!! And we all know how cheap Gannett has been lately. :rolleyes:

Damn them, wanting to make money like they're a business or something. Clearly they're a charity existing to please nickdawg and have forgotten their way. :D

- Trip

If I look hard enough I can see macro blocking on all channels (OTA) during fast action. On the .2's and .3's I see it all the time. Some peoples eyes can pick up fast action macro blocks better than others. Unfortunately for me when I was 16 I had a problem picking up a baseball which I rarely hit even by mistake. The eye doctor said the only thing that cannot be checked or evaluated is the ability of how fast your eye can focus on a rapidly moving object.
JJK

Must carry only applies to the main subchannel, and stations can opt out of must-carry in order to obtain "retransmission consent," which can include compensation one way or another, as well as carriage for the subchannels in the agreement.

Thanks for the clarification.

Damn them, wanting to make money like they're a business or something. Clearly they're a charity existing to please nickdawg and have forgotten their way. :D

- Trip

You are so smart for such a young guy!;)

Damn them, wanting to make money like they're a business or something. Clearly they're a charity existing to please nickdawg and have forgotten their way. :D

- Trip

What I mean is: look at the news department. Tim White was let go, along with Lydia Esparra, Obie Shelton and behind the scenes people. The graphics people were fired in favor of a computerised system, making all their stations have the same graphics. 6pm news and all weekend shows are now single-anchor format. How long before other? If you want to see the dismal future of TV news broadcasting, look at Gannett and WKYC. There's even talk, and it's happened in other markets, of using shared video. No more news crews competing to be "first on the scene".

Sadly, you're correct. They are a business. And that's the problem. They're treating it like a business. What ever it takes to make the green. Anyone and anything is expendable. Anything goes in the name of ratings. To hell with integrity, quality and journalism. Flashy, sensationalism is in.

WKYC should change their slogan from "Report the Facts, Respect the Truth" to: "WKYC: Dollar Dollar Bill Y'all" :D:D:D:D:D

the cheap bastards at Gannett know it's a cash cow. An extra channel to run(and sell) commercials on. BRILLIANT!!

like that "cash cow" over on 43-2?
jeeze, put up tone & bars or a fish tank or a picture of SuperHost already!

http://drop.io/download/public/ou06xyoypre6io94nexv/25fa3a14ca9cee02b8f8a85c5e8a139a70551b57/5b07b910-3a50-012b-948a-0012799407ec/c1256310-b906-012b-5fc3-f9ee2dc9f549/superhost4_large.jpg
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superhost)

Just spoke with the Bluegrass top tech. He said that DTV is well aware of the transmission of the channel. Problem is not seen on 19-1;only on 19 being retransmitted by DTV. Issue is in what DTV receives from WOIO.

What I mean is: look at the news department. Tim White was let go, along with Lydia Esparra, Obie Shelton and behind the scenes people. The graphics people were fired in favor of a computerised system, making all their stations have the same graphics. 6pm news and all weekend shows are now single-anchor format. How long before other? If you want to see the dismal future of TV news broadcasting, look at Gannett and WKYC. There's even talk, and it's happened in other markets, of using shared video. No more news crews competing to be "first on the scene".

Sadly, you're correct. They are a business. And that's the problem. They're treating it like a business. What ever it takes to make the green. Anyone and anything is expendable. Anything goes in the name of ratings. To hell with integrity, quality and journalism. Flashy, sensationalism is in.

WKYC should change their slogan from "Report the Facts, Respect the Truth" to: "WKYC: Dollar Dollar Bill Y'all" :D:D:D:D:D

I didn't think I'd ever say this, but I agree with every word Nick just said :D.
I havn't watched the local news cosistantly (on any channel) for at least 3-4 years.
It's exactly how Nick says, and it's disgusting.

Well, I went to the local TWC office today. What a f'ing mess. The line was out the door. Everything from equipment returns to new equipment and internet problems. And wouldn't you know it, not even one HD digital box in the building. There were plenty of brand new 8300HD boxes, still in the Scientific Atlanta crates, but no non-DVR boxes. Woman at the desk said they will have more tomorrow, so I'll be back. The one nice thing I did observe is someone returning a SA 8000 SDTV DVR(which is an incredible piece of ****), and they gave him a new 8300HD in the crate. So it looks like all new equipment is HD. But really, what would be the point of ordering SD only equipment anymore? More people are going HD, plus they work fine on SDTVs. At least they are doing something right(for once;)). Now, all I have to worry about is that I get a new 4250HD box. I'd hope that by now they'd have some new equipment. The last HD box I had was the 3100HD and it was **eh**. But I'd still like one of those new ones, I hope I can ask. :D

Well, I went to the local TWC office today. What a f'ing mess. The line was out the door. Everything from equipment returns to new equipment and internet problems. And wouldn't you know it, not even one HD digital box in the building. There were plenty of brand new 8300HD boxes, still in the Scientific Atlanta crates, but no non-DVR boxes. Woman at the desk said they will have more tomorrow, so I'll be back. The one nice thing I did observe is someone returning a SA 8000 SDTV DVR(which is an incredible piece of ****), and they gave him a new 8300HD in the crate. So it looks like all new equipment is HD. But really, what would be the point of ordering SD only equipment anymore? More people are going HD, plus they work fine on SDTVs. At least they are doing something right(for once;)). Now, all I have to worry about is that I get a new 4250HD box. I'd hope that by now they'd have some new equipment. The last HD box I had was the 3100HD and it was **eh**. But I'd still like one of those new ones, I hope I can ask. :D

I heard that spiel about 5 months ago too. An email to Mr. Fry had a non-DVR HD box sitting on my doorstep the next day...:D

On an unrelated note...does anyone notice the crawls on some of the cable channels touting us to call TW and "Demand" that they come back. The crawls are running on Nick, Noggin, MTV, Spike, Comedy, TV Land and I think a couple more. I am not too worried, I'm sure this is just end of the year negotations that we already heard from TWC's website.

I saw the crawl running on a D* channel (I don't remember which) and I don't think D* had anything to do with it. The crawl was really sh!tty looking too, made that channel look like unprofessional fools. I remember better looking crawls from an old Atari 2600.

As far as the DVR/non-DVR thing with TW you would think they would hand out DVR boxes to everybody and provision them so no DVR functions were allowed until they activated those functions. And they could do an ad campaign offering to "upgrade" people for only $5 that already had the DVR box by simply hitting the box from master control.

like that "cash cow" over on 43-2?
jeeze, put up tone & bars or a fish tank or a picture of SuperHost already!

http://drop.io/download/public/ou06xyoypre6io94nexv/25fa3a14ca9cee02b8f8a85c5e8a139a70551b57/5b07b910-3a50-012b-948a-0012799407ec/c1256310-b906-012b-5fc3-f9ee2dc9f549/superhost4_large.jpg
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superhost)

For as much as I despised this guy, I miss that type of programming only local Indys could show.... I'll say the same for Big Chuck & the lil guy, & what's that host on Night Owl Theater on WBNS...:)... the Ghoul, the list goes on!

Thanks to all who replied on the Cable box question, Ive passed the reading on to the interested parties. You don't spend over a grand on a set, 50+ on a monthly bill & settle for a picture like that... I'm sorry! :(

I saw an item on the news crawl of 19 Action News at 5 saying some viewers in Wadsworth and Conneaut might be losing CBS and My Network TV programming in the coming days due to a dispute with the cable provider.

Ahh, how lucky they are!! ;););)


An antenna should be able to pull 35 from Erie from Conneaut... only like 20 miles to the transmitter... & difficult 20 miles.

Noticed WJET is featuring WICU (NBC) on their sub... interesting, what a waste of bandwith, now don't that make your blood boil! :)

It was a question. "What will happen to 3-2?" One of the possibilities was "go away". What's the point of keeping the channel running without a national feed on it? That makes it as bad as 19-2. Or even better, why not run paid programs on it all day!!! ;):p:p:p:p:p The bottom line is: SUBCHANNELS ARE EVIL. They should not be allowed on ANY affiliate of the five major networks(NBC, ABC, CBS, CW, FOX). CBS is smart in not allowing its O&O stations to have any subchannels. The only stations in Cleveland that should be eligible to have subchannels are: 61, 67, 17 and the to-be-launched 23. It is absolutely wrong that CBS and NBC degrade their HD picture.

Applause to WEWS, WBNX and WJW for resisting the urge to follow the sheep and ruin their HD signals.

*I guess we dodged a bullet there. The only thing MORE useless than a local weather channel would be those services you listed.:eek:

67 & 17??, now comon a few of us in the cleveland market just can't get those. I'm getting a very clear picture on 3 with the suyb, & notice a slight degrade on 19, but as mentioned this is head & shoulders over analog.

I guess I'm just too old school (& cheap) to get cable, & of course I'm likely the only one here without a cell too. :)

Agreed though that is a waste on 43, I've been looking at other cities use of subs, & there are a lot better choices out there.... the Cleveland market sux... but most of you have alternate choices even for OTA.... me I'm in an RF hole for a secondary market, & now I've lost 10 CFPL Analog too.... I'll also likely be losing 23, & not gaining really anything but a few weather subs in the conversion.

Wow. I'm sorry, but that is totally ass-backwards thinking. How much bandwidth do you really think is necessary to give a good HD picture? And how much bandwidth do you think the 480i subchannels use? You get roughly ~18mbps to work with on the channel as a whole. decent quality SD channels on cable use around 2mbps. 2mbps is peanuts for a 720p or 1080i signal especially when it's already using upwards of 15mbps. I dare you to actually say you can SEE a difference between say a 1080i picture at 15mbps and 18mbps.

Fact is subchannels are one of the few added features of this digital transition that actually make it worthwhile for consumers. Especially for those who simulcast REAL content on those subchannels. Good example is WFMJ. They run WBCB on 21-2 which otherwise is only available on cable and was never broadcasted OTA in analog. And WKBN with it's high power transmitter runs WYFX as a subchannel in SD which otherwise is hard to get on analog anywhere outside of youngstown due to it's LP status.

But I do agree that stuff like these weather subchannels are getting really out of hand. Nearly every broadcaster has them and more often than not there are more than one of them running in a single market.

But subchannels are far from 'useless' and I dare you to give me an honest comparison in a true blind test that you can tell the difference in an HD picture with a few extra mbits added on to an already high bandwidth signal.

Interesting, I wish I could get the Y market up here.

I heard that spiel about 5 months ago too. An email to Mr. Fry had a non-DVR HD box sitting on my doorstep the next day...:D

On an unrelated note...does anyone notice the crawls on some of the cable channels touting us to call TW and "Demand" that they come back. The crawls are running on Nick, Noggin, MTV, Spike, Comedy, TV Land and I think a couple more. I am not too worried, I'm sure this is just end of the year negotations that we already heard from TWC's website.

Thanks, I'll have to remember the "Fry Card" that was talked about here awhile back.

I dare you to actually say you can SEE a difference between say a 1080i picture at 15mbps and 18mbps.

It's actually pretty obvious if you have a 50"+ 1080p display and are watching football with fast motion.

Subchannels are evil.

67 & 17??, now comon a few of us in the cleveland market just can't get those. I'm getting a very clear picture on 3 with the suyb, & notice a slight degrade on 19, but as mentioned this is head & shoulders over analog.

I guess I'm just too old school (& cheap) to get cable, & of course I'm likely the only one here without a cell too. :)

Agreed though that is a waste on 43, I've been looking at other cities use of subs, & there are a lot better choices out there.... the Cleveland market sux... but most of you have alternate choices even for OTA.... me I'm in an RF hole for a secondary market, & now I've lost 10 CFPL Analog too.... I'll also likely be losing 23, & not gaining really anything but a few weather subs in the conversion.

Funny. Down here in Akron, 23 comes in perfect. It even has caused interference on analog channel 74 on cable(which is where 23 OTA shows up on a TV set to CABLE). I can even get it without an antenna connected sometimes. And with rabbit ears, 67 looks pretty good too, even when 3,5 and 8 look like crap or don't even come in at all.

Well, I went to the local TWC office today. What a f'ing mess. The line was out the door.

Given the fact that it's only a few days after Christmas (lots of new HDTVs), did you expect otherwise? If so, you're crazier than I thought! :)

When in doubt, always plan your visits to TWC offices late Sunday afternoons when the weather is horrible and nothing "good" (like the SuperBowl) is scheduled within the next two months. Following these guidelines *might* get you a somewhat pleasant visit.

Given the fact that it's only a few days after Christmas (lots of new HDTVs), did you expect otherwise? If so, you're crazier than I thought! :)

When in doubt, always plan your visits to TWC offices late Sunday afternoons when the weather is horrible and nothing "good" (like the SuperBowl) is scheduled within the next two months. Following these guidelines *might* get you a somewhat pleasant visit.

Yeah, I'm a bit crazy. :D Along with the crowd, I was planning that they would be overstocked because of all the new HDTVs over Christmas. ;) But the good news is she said they will have boxes tomorrow afternoon. Can you believe it, they're open till 7 on New Years Eve! If that doesn't work, I'll have to try a "down time". I know I've been there before and it's empty at times. Other times, it's out the door.



And I've seen the crawls on MTV2, ruining this episode of Jackass. The REAL "Jackasses" are the networks. But it makes me wonder, what's up with this? Usually, the legal notices are on TWC's website, but you don't see anything about it on the air. It looks like a crappy scrolling title inserted in Windows Movie Maker. :mad:

EDIT: It's also on during "Three's Company". If that crawl covers any shots of Suzanne Sommer's butt or boobs, I'm gonna call that number and tell them to shove their channel!! ;) :D

And I've seen the crawls on MTV2, ruining this episode of Jackass. The REAL "Jackasses" are the networks. But it makes me wonder, what's up with this? Usually, the legal notices are on TWC's website, but you don't see anything about it on the air. It looks like a crappy scrolling title inserted in Windows Movie Maker. :mad:

That's something you really should be taking up with Viacom. They've been pulling this stuff constantly and last time it was with Dish. They want paid more and the sat/cable companies don't want to comply with the exorbitant rates so they feud. They are also the ones inserting the crawls as customers with other providers are seeing them as well.

ML Baseball Network is now up and running on channel 326...just running ads about their new channel...

I didn't see it on the HD Channels..

so who says Time Warner doesn't give us end users what we want..lol

............
I guess I'm just too old school (& cheap) to get cable, & of course I'm likely the only one here without a cell too. :)
.........................

Why don't you at least get the free "lifeline" cable service? Especially if you are having issues getting the locals OTA.

Given the fact that it's only a few days after Christmas (lots of new HDTVs), did you expect otherwise? If so, you're crazier than I thought! :)



The office in Macedonia closes for lunch at 1:00. Get there by 1:55 pm and jump out of your car and head for the door. You are first in line.

That's what I do.;)

And I'm happy to report that there is new staffing at the Macedonia office. They now only have one person so the issue of how long it takes is frustrating. People were leaving while I was getting my STB because the woman that set it up took so long. But none of the people were there from the time they threatened to call the cops on me when I had an explosion because Adelphia had told me I could simply pick up an SA 8300 (when they were brand new) at the Macedonia office and they didn't have any.

I also almost got into a fist fight with some jerk who was standing in line sticking his nose in my business. He took offense because I was saying "damn.":rolleyes:

Kent TWC office on Rt. 59 has always been very nice as well, and I never see the lines get too bad there either. The one in Akron however, is a joke. If they told me that they would have boxes the next day, I would still not expect to see any boxes when I came back. They have no idea what they are doing.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081231/ap_en_ot/viacom_time_warner_cable

I havn't watched the local news cosistantly (on any channel) for at least 3-4 years.
I haven't watched the local news on any channel for at least 30-40 years. News comes from the internet, public radio, and an occasional newspaper. That stuff on TV has so little news content as to be laughable. And that is NOT a new development - it's been true for decades.

(And no, I'm not exaggerating in that first sentence.)

Kent TWC office on Rt. 59 has always been very nice as well, and I never see the lines get too bad there either. The one in Akron however, is a joke. If they told me that they would have boxes the next day, I would still not expect to see any boxes when I came back. They have no idea what they are doing.

Yes, that's why I was cracking up over nickdawg's comment about how he was going to ask the people at the office about SDV. If anything, they know less about it then Customer Service.

I saw the crawl the other day about the problem with Wadsworth and WOIO and the telephone company.

I see that this is close to Akron. I'm wondering if TW is in there as well?

I also have my doubts that if they don't sign with WOIO they will lose CBS. This is just a guess but it may be that they will deliver a signal from CBS in Columbus. Is there a CBS outlet in Canton? That would work as well.

I wouldn't put it past WOIO to use scare tactics to try and secure their contract demands.

I saw the crawl the other day about the problem with Wadsworth and WOIO and the telephone company.

I see that this is close to Akron. I'm wondering if TW is in there as well?

Wadsworth has its own, separate, city-run cable TV system that actually competes with Time Warner within city limits. I know this, because they were just talking about it when I lived in that area.

http://tv.wadsnet.com/


Wadsworth Cable TV was created by the City and Community of Wadsworth to provide a low cost alternative for Cable TV service. We have grown from a few customers in one section of the City in 1997, to today, providing the entire City plus some sections of the Township with Cable TV service.

From our Analog service to our new Digital Service, Wadsworth Cable TV continues to provide a local alternative for Cable TV.


Just north of Wadsworth, in Sharon Center, that's the old Adelphia system (which started as Cablevision).

Wadsworth city is served both by an offshoot of TWC's original Akron system, but also by that city-owned cable system.

I don't know if the city system would be allowed/able to pull in WBNS out of Columbus. Wadsworth is quite a hike from there, and not within WBNS' reception area.

Wadsworth has its own, separate, city-run cable TV system that actually competes with Time Warner within city limits. I know this, because they were just talking about it when I lived in that area.

http://tv.wadsnet.com/



Just north of Wadsworth, in Sharon Center, that's the old Adelphia system (which started as Cablevision).

Wadsworth city is served both by an offshoot of TWC's original Akron system, but also by that city-owned cable system.

I don't know if the city system would be allowed/able to pull in WBNS out of Columbus. Wadsworth is quite a hike from there, and not within WBNS' reception area.

That's why I asked if there was an affiliate maybe in Canton.

I just can't imagine a cable company not delivering CBS. If I lived in that community I'd make it my mission to have heads roll on the powers that be, unless of course they can get TW.

I will say this about WOIO Action News: Jeff Tanchak 5 days before Saturday predicted a high of 68 while everyone else was saying low 50's. He was right, and the day before everyone changed their predictions. Also he hit the nail on the head on today's storm ahead of the other guys.

Now having said that I will also say I find him completely annoying. He's like a Deion Sanders of meteorology. Cocky, arrogant, but delivers....At least this time.

Ya Sanders is cocky and arrogant, but delivers the goods. If that weather guy really is doing the same, I'd keep watching/reading his reports wether I liked him or not.
I think most of these meteorologists just grab their info from elsewhere and do the ole copy/paste forcast. Change a number here and there to make it sound legit :rolleyes:.
I understand that NE Ohio may be possibly the hardest weather to predict in the whole country, but that is why each station has a full TEAM of assistants for their weather department.
For the most part, I just look up the weather on the PC. Some guy in California can predict just as good or better than most of the meteorologists in NE Ohio.

[QUOTE=hookbill;15424225]That's why I asked if there was an affiliate maybe in Canton.

There is nothing in Canton except low power independent channel 52 and religion huckster channel 17's analog outlet. :(

analog?
I thought 17 was digital. I remember when I moved into the house where I am now about 4.5 years ago, I tried indoor powered rabbit ears just to see what I would pick up, and I remember getting 17 and they had several sub channels too.
I only live like a mile or two from the tower.

Ya Sanders is cocky and arrogant, but delivers the goods. If that weather guy really is doing the same, I'd keep watching/reading his reports wether I liked him or not.
I think most of these meteorologists just grab their info from elsewhere and do the ole copy/paste forcast. Change a number here and there to make it sound legit :rolleyes:.
I understand that NE Ohio may be possibly the hardest weather to predict in the whole country, but that is why each station has a full TEAM of assistants for their weather department.
For the most part, I just look up the weather on the PC. Some guy in California can predict just as good or better than most of the meteorologists in NE Ohio.

Let's be fair about this. They know more then I do and this area is very hard to predict.

Now Cincinnati, that's another story.

You would think L.A. meteorologists would have it easy, but believe it or not it's crazy out there too. They almost never miss when it comes to predicting rain unless it's a cut off low. If you don't know what that is, it's a low pressure area that breaks off the main low pressure area. It's anyone's guess what it will do. Famous saying out there "cut off low, weatherman's woe."

And the same thing applies here with lake effect snow. All they can do is make an educated guess.

I just happen to have Tanchak on one night and there he was saying "nobody else will say this but I'm going to tell you it will be 68 on Saturday and we will set a new record." And he was right. At the same time he said snow around New Years day.:eek:

^soothsayer?:D

ML Baseball Network is now up and running on channel 326...just running ads about their new channel...

I didn't see it on the HD Channels..

so who says Time Warner doesn't give us end users what we want..lol

Unless USA HD and F/X HD light up tomorrow, I do!!! :D:D

Funny. Down here in Akron, 23 comes in perfect. It even has caused interference on analog channel 74 on cable(which is where 23 OTA shows up on a TV set to CABLE). I can even get it without an antenna connected sometimes. And with rabbit ears, 67 looks pretty good too, even when 3,5 and 8 look like crap or don't even come in at all.

I'm up in central Lake County a few miles from the lake, no 67 or 17 analog whatsoever though I occasionally get analog WNED 17 out of Jamestown/Buffalo with a snowy picture, occasionaly watchable. 23 is another animal, at times very near perfect, most of the time grainy. With an amp (which I thought would help) I get interference & ghosting from 19 analog. I'm not counting on getting 23 after the transition though. 17 (39 DTV) I have recieved once or twice, a relatively weak signal & not strong enough to lock. 67 (47 DTV), not even a heartbeat of a signal.

Why don't you at least get the free "lifeline" cable service? Especially if you are having issues getting the locals OTA.

Actually nothing is free, the TWC lifeline I believe varies by community, & it runs at about $15/month here for 12 channels. I am on a lifeline phone here which makes communications all that much more difficult since I only have a 12 mile calling radius to my east & west & 8 miles to my south, after that 27 to 58 cents a minute.... thank god someone made this decision for my boundries in an office buiding in Columbus decades ago, If I lived less than a mile to my west, I'd be able to call clear into Lorain county free of charge.

Again eventually I'd still want the antenna for the balance of the HD locals here too.

When I was purchasing my STB's at CC, the salesman who lives in Madison & had lifeline there said that TWC informed him he would have to purchae a STB in order to continue recieving Cable after Feb '09, this didn't make too much sense to me.

I somewhat detest technology, I'm still on dialup which is making the internet difficult also, so do I cave into pressure & up to DSL, so I can shell out more $$$ so spammers can rape my PC & induate me with more advertising?

Any one notice 61.1 is off the air for the past few days, I know who cares??? si?? :)

Yeah, and 3.1 was supposed to be high def but somebody forgot to change the switch.
35 analog is pretty strong lately. I get 53 fairly good but 29 is very poor.
JJK

analog?
I thought 17 was digital. I remember when I moved into the house where I am now about 4.5 years ago, I tried indoor powered rabbit ears just to see what I would pick up, and I remember getting 17 and they had several sub channels too.
I only live like a mile or two from the tower.

The analog 17 signal is on a tower in Canton, while the digital is on a tower in Akron.

- Trip

The analog 17 signal is on a tower in Canton, while the digital is on a tower in Akron.

- Trip

That solves that mystery then. Thanks :).

Unless USA HD and F/X HD light up tomorrow, I do!!! :D:D

Dream on.....:D

I'd be surprised if any new HD channels start tomorrow. Maybe 1/2 or 1/3... and if it's the one's you picked, that would be so nice!

ML Baseball Network is now up and running on channel 326...just running ads about their new channel...

I didn't see it on the HD Channels..

so who says Time Warner doesn't give us end users what we want..lol

I do. I just checked and it's not up and running around here. I used my STB to make sure it wasn't just my TiVo. There is no channel 326. YMMV. Inundated, are you seeing it?

That's why my dream has always been that WOIO would go away entirely. And it's becoming more realistic. The economy is in the crapper, stations are cutting back. And when you're owned by Raycheap, "Hey, let's shut down a station or two" is a realistic idea. Then, my dream is that with WOIO gone, WKBN would become Cleveland's CBS affiliate by default. The same way WOIO was carried in Youngstown before a FOX affiliate was established. :D

Oh,but I would lose CBS then :( or at least when it isn't pixelating, lately 19 has been pretty good though), WKBN would need a repeater up here, the few people I know that still have antennas do not get WKBN, even in Kirtland which is quite a bit higher than me.

Realistically the Ceveland market does need repeaters up likely located in Madison to cover those who are below the ridge, & out to Geneva, & Ashtabula where Erie's signal will not likely reach either.

Yeah, and 3.1 was supposed to be high def but somebody forgot to change the switch.
35 analog is pretty strong lately. I get 53 fairly good but 29 is very poor.
JJK

How about 65?

Since all are on the same tower, I do get 53 & 65, with a bit of snow but nadda on 35 which is the bonus on that tower... they still show old movies & sitcoms there?

35... now that would make a nice Sub! :)

Went back to TWC. Another horrific line. And there was a sing up stating they are out of all HD equipment. But other HD people were waiting in line, so I waited. As I inched, and I mean that literally, closer to the counter I someone else getting a HD STB. As the big purple cabinet opened, there they were, an entire cabinet full of brand new SA 4250HD boxes!! :D:D:D:D:D I felt like an excited little kid. They actually told the truth!!! Guess everyone has a first time! ;) But the line was awful. Two windows open. One was doing bills only and the other was worked by a grumpy woman who was slow. And on top of that, these ass holes had some problem and were there for at least 20 minutes. Are the words, "I can't help you right now" in their vocabulary? If some asses want to argue their bill, call on the phone, don't waste time!!

Now, onto the box. It's an OCAP box!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: DAMMIT!! And after seeing the menus on the OCAP box, the version of Navigator on the existing non-OCAP boxes looks beautiful. The OCAP version(ODN) looks like an awful beta test. It's so ugly, crude and slow. It doesn't have the nice fade effects and the channel banner is WAY oversized. I wonder why they don't update this one? The MDN boxes look nice, but the OCAP ones are horrible. But at least all the pay channels are on for free!! That's a win!!

And the strange thing is, Big Ten Network, BTNA(334) and BTN HD have a "Call Customer Service" banner on screen. I wonder why those are off? Also, the HD Tier channels don't come in "for free" like Starz, Showtime and Cinemax.

Dream on.....:D

I'd be surprised if any new HD channels start tomorrow. Maybe 1/2 or 1/3... and if it's the one's you picked, that would be so nice!

No, Mr. Bill. Channels will be going AWAY tomorrow. I just saw a story on Channel 3 and they said Time Warner customers will be losing channels. Last I heard, both sides didn't agree on anything yet.

No, Mr. Bill. Channels will be going AWAY tomorrow. I just saw a story on Channel 3 and they said Time Warner customers will be losing channels. Last I heard, both sides didn't agree on anything yet.

nickdawg what channels?

For all the complaining nickdawg likes to do about the cable company and the equipment they use, customer service, and just about everything, I'm really surprised his answer to every problem is to "get cable." :D

- Trip

nickdawg what channels?

Anything from Viacom. MTV, MTV2, Nickelodeon, VH1, Spike TV, Comedy Central, ... . They're running messages on screen about it. I saw it on several channels last night.

http://www.wkyc.com/news/local/news_article.aspx?storyid=104084&catid=45

For all the complaining nickdawg likes to do about the cable company and the equipment they use, customer service, and just about everything, I'm really surprised his answer to every problem is to "get cable." :D

- Trip

Really. Must be some love-hate relationship going on there, eh? How's the makeup sex? :D

Really. Must be some love-hate relationship going on there, eh? How's the makeup sex? :D

SHOCKINGLY good :D:D:D:D:D

For all the complaining nickdawg likes to do about the cable company and the equipment they use, customer service, and just about everything, I'm really surprised his answer to every problem is to "get cable." :D

- Trip

All this still doesn't come close to how awful satellite was. I could have USA HD, F/X HD, and others I want now, but it's not worth it. I can live with the ugly menus and long waits at customer service. I never have to go back there and wait, there's a bill slot outside. Only time I might have to go back is if I ever come around to replacing that kitchen TV with an HDTV and I'll need to get another HDTV box. But that's not happening anytime soon. ;) Even with all this, cable is not that bad. I'd still recommend cable first over any other method of getting TV.

Actually nothing is free, the TWC lifeline I believe varies by community, & it runs at about $15/month here for 12 channels. I am on a lifeline phone here which makes communications all that much more difficult since I only have a 12 mile calling radius to my east & west & 8 miles to my south, after that 27 to 58 cents a minute.... thank god someone made this decision for my boundries in an office buiding in Columbus decades ago, If I lived less than a mile to my west, I'd be able to call clear into Lorain county free of charge.

Again eventually I'd still want the antenna for the balance of the HD locals here too.

When I was purchasing my STB's at CC, the salesman who lives in Madison & had lifeline there said that TWC informed him he would have to purchae a STB in order to continue receiving Cable after Feb '09, this didn't make too much sense to me.

I somewhat detest technology, I'm still on dialup which is making the internet difficult also, so do I cave into pressure & up to DSL, so I can shell out more $$$ so spammers can rape my PC & induate me with more advertising?

Any one notice 61.1 is off the air for the past few days, I know who cares??? si?? :)

No free cable makes sense. I thought there was some discussion in here a while back about cable co's mandated to offer free cable for locals (not QAM) but I probably misread that.

You wouldn't get any more "spam" on cable or DSL internet service than you currently get on dial up. Spam is derived from you (or others) making your email address available to spam collection bots like posting your email on a news group or forum, signing up for email subscriptions, buying things online, forwarding or being forwarded email jokes and chain letters, etc..

Where your email derives from (dial up, cable modem, DSL, satellite, FIOS, whatever) has no bearing on whether you get spam. ;)

Anything from Viacom. MTV, MTV2, Nickelodeon, VH1, Spike TV, Comedy Central, ... . They're running messages on screen about it. I saw it on several channels last night.

http://www.wkyc.com/news/local/news_article.aspx?storyid=104084&catid=45

Yeah I saw it.

The channels that will go dark at midnight tonight if an agreement isn't reached are: Nickelodeon/Nick at Nite, MTV, VH1, Spike, TVLand, Comedy Central, Noggin, MTV2, VH1 Classic, Logo, MTV Hits, MTV Jams, MYV Tr3s, Nick Too, Nicktoons and The N.



Let's see how many of these channels do I watch? Why, none at all.

I could care less.

Right after I posted the channels, I read them off to my wife but I threw in a few of the shopping channels. She came over and read the post. Then she started choking me.:eek:

No free cable makes sense. I thought there was some discussion in here a while back about cable co's mandated to offer free cable for locals (not QAM) but I probably misread that.

You wouldn't get any more "spam" on cable or DSL internet service than you currently get on dial up. Spam is derived from you (or others) making your email address available to spam collection bots like posting your email on a news group or forum, signing up for email subscriptions, buying things online, forwarding or being forwarded email jokes and chain letters, etc..

Where your email derives from (dial up, cable modem, DSL, satellite, FIOS, whatever) has no bearing on whether you get spam. ;)

Wasn't really refering to Mail Spam per se, but have you checked your cache & temp folders for all the spyware junk mining information from the PC, It slows my PC to a crawl at times... if this isn't a pleasant experience why would I pay them more?? I'D JUST CANCEL IT & RUN!!! :)

My Brother called me one day (I don't know everything about PC's but I guess more than he does) saying his PC stopped while on the DSL & a box popped up asking him for a CC# just to make his PC run again... you think I want or need that kind of aggrivation or security breach? Even on this site there is a constant box popping up that wants to install something. (???) it would likely take an hour to do so.

As far as cable goes I was staying at his place in Miami, I was hard pressed to get anything on at 3am on his 70+ Channel cable except for informertials... strange we pay dearly for this 'service'!

Really. Must be some love-hate relationship going on there, eh? How's the makeup sex? :D

LOL you all make my day!!! :)

Have a great New Year all, & hope the Cable channel god is good to you! :)

Is any other TW customer seeing the MLB channel other then erieMarty?

Wasn't really refering to Mail Spam per se, but have you checked your cache & temp folders for all the spyware junk mining information from the PC, It slows my PC to a crawl at times... if this isn't a pleasant experience why would I pay them more?? I'D JUST CANCEL IT & RUN!!! :)

My Brother called me one day (I don't know everything about PC's but I guess more than he does) saying his PC stopped while on the DSL & a box popped up asking him for a CC# just to make his PC run again... you think I want or need that kind of aggrivation or security breach? Even on this site there is a constant box popping up that wants to install something. (???) it would likely take an hour to do so.

As far as cable goes I was staying at his place in Miami, I was hard pressed to get anything on at 3am on his 70+ Channel cable except for informertials... strange we pay dearly for this 'service'!

Yeah, that's different than spam. That's adbots & malware. But if you have a good firewall and good anti-virus software (and updated regularly) then that shouldn't happen. I've run one home computer online 24/7x365 for the past six years plus a laptop online about half that time. I also use the laptop at free (sometimes illegal) WiFi spots while traveling. A third computer is on maybe 20 hours per week at home. I also prefer to shop online for the savings and convenience. I also run live media streaming devices that require 24/7 internet connections. All said, I've never once had a single issue with adbots or malware. Not one.

It all comes down to good prevention (firewalls and security settings for computers, router and networked devices), plus good anti-virus and don't visit known bad sites :p, then you should little if any problem. ;)

I get 65 analog pretty good with some noise.
JJK

Is any other TW customer seeing the MLB channel other then erieMarty?

I see it. It's not listed in the TWC guide, but you can get it by punching in 3-2-6 manually. I'm not sure why you'd want to see it. I'd rather be seeing USA HD on 450 and F/X HD on 451! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

I see it. It's not listed in the TWC guide, but you can get it by punching in 3-2-6 manually. I'm not sure why you'd want to see it. I'd rather be seeing USA HD on 450 and F/X HD on 451! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Interesting! I can't do that. When I punch in 3-2-6 I go right to the Tennis channel. I can do it on my TiVo's but it just says channel not available.

nickdawg you told me you could not punch in channels with navigator. Is this with your STB?

OK Inundated, you can jump in anytime.

Interesting! I can't do that. When I punch in 3-2-6 I go right to the Tennis channel. I can do it on my TiVo's but it just says channel not available.

nickdawg you told me you could not punch in channels with navigator. Is this with your STB?

OK Inundated, you can jump in anytime.

Yes you can. You can punch in channels. It's the only way to get "hidden" channels like the SDV test channels. The only place you can't punch in channels is the guide, if they don't have it programmed in. Doing 3-2-6 in the guide takes me to the Tennis channel too.

Yes you can. You can punch in channels. It's the only way to get "hidden" channels like the SDV test channels. The only place you can't punch in channels is the guide, if they don't have it programmed in. Doing 3-2-6 in the guide takes me to the Tennis channel too.

You know you are a real piece of work. I'm not going to do it because it's time consuming but we talked about this. It was around the Olympics.

On second thought I will pursue this. This is what you said (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14518032#post14518032).

Originally Posted by hookbill View Post
In the meantime, try punching in 450 manually and see if you still get it. Just because I have TiVo shouldn't make a difference (I don't think). You will have to set up manual recordings until or if they put it back on the line up.

Unless they did something to those SA 8300 boxes to keep you from getting to that channel.''

That's your quote of what I said. Here's your response:

Tivo beats us at that too!! With SA boxes, you cannot tune any channel that's not mapped to a source. 4-5-0 does nothing, just flashing question marks. If I still had Passport and knew the frequency of the channel I could probably manually tune it from the diagnostic screen, but they took that away! I'm not surprised the worthless lump of flesh, err, umm, I mean "TWC CSR", didn't know about USA HD. It was never advertised by TWC. I wonder how manyy HD viewers didn't even know they had it available? Here we get a massage on channels like ESPN and STO that say "Press Select For Enhanced" that brings up a box with the option to tune to the HD channel. I believe that's also the interface for features like StartOver as well. But forget about that, they can't even ass new HD channels

Now if it's not on the guide you're saying it still can be a mapped source. Well I punch in 326 without the guide and I get 327. So it's not active in my area.:confused:

This must be original TW people getting this. We will probably get it when they actually start showing something.

This also proves that we are still not all on the same system, which means that SDV is still a long, long ways away.

While there is an abundance of information on the STB concerning SDV, there is no evidence of any activity going on in my area. All diagnostic info shows no activity. Nothing is mapped to the SDV channels on SARA. When you hit 950 it goes to 1000.

Maybe nickdawg and all you original TW people will get SDV before the rest of us, but I doubt you will see any increase in HD programming based upon the simple fact that if they give you channels and we don't get them, we will b#tch about it. Or at least I will:

Dear Mr. Fry,

It has come to my attention etc. etc. etc.....;)

Edit: Hey, maybe if they get rid of all those unnecessary channels, well maybe not Comedy I kind of understand that one we'd have more bandwith for HD!!!!!! :)

Just had a bit more info come across the local news about this TW/Viacom mess and said Viacom is pushing for a 21-30% per channel carriage fee increase. Know what I say? ****. YOU. Take your channels and shove 'em.

While there is an abundance of information on the STB concerning SDV, there is no evidence of any activity going on in my area. All diagnostic info shows no activity. Nothing is mapped to the SDV channels on SARA. When you hit 950 it goes to 1000.

Maybe nickdawg and all you original TW people will get SDV before the rest of us, but I doubt you will see any increase in HD programming based upon the simple fact that if they give you channels and we don't get them, we will b#tch about it. Or at least I will:

Dear Mr. Fry,

It has come to my attention etc. etc. etc.....;)

Edit: Hey, maybe if they get rid of all those unnecessary channels, well maybe not Comedy I kind of understand that one we'd have more bandwith for HD!!!!!! :)

Yeah but, we had WBNS, FOOD, History, A&E, HGTV for almost more than a month before other areas. I'm sure they'd add other channels here too. That way TWC can brag about how many channels NE Ohio has, even if they are not in all areas.

It looks like we're on a collision course for the Viacom/TWC thing:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gmeKcfi6sWhsSN9SOcnD9eR3hjsAD95E2EN00


LOS ANGELES (AP) — A spat between Time Warner Cable Inc. and Viacom Inc. over how much the cable company pays to carry channels such as MTV and Comedy Central headed down to the wire on New Year's Eve — as a blackout loomed at a minute past the stroke of midnight.

Time Warner, the nation's second-largest cable operator, proposed an increase in what it pays for Viacom's channels, but the offer was rejected as "a pittance," said Viacom spokeswoman Kelly McAndrew.


Here's the list of channels affected:


Comedy Central, Logo, Palladia, MTV, MTV 2, MTV Hits, MTV Jams, MTV Tr3s, Nickelodeon, Noggin, Nick 2, Nicktoons, Spike, The N, TV Land, VH1, VH1 Classic, VH1 Soul and CMT: Pure Country.


Out of all of that, the only thing I'd miss would be Comedy Central, and only for Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert. Some of the old 60's/70's sitcoms on my TiVo's Auto Record Wish List used to show up on TV Land, but not anymore.

Unfortunately, it looks like Viacom intends on blocking TWC/Brighthouse subscribers from the video on their websites as well, so you won't be able to watch "The Daily Show" on its own site. If you go to the TDS site tonight, there's a message warning you that you won't be able to watch either on the cable channel or online...I saw it earlier tonight.

The rest of their channels can go to heck as far as I'm concerned. I'll find a way to watch TDS/Colbert...after tonight, you'll probably only have to do moderate searching to find that video, and Viacom won't be able to shut it all down quick enough.

Or, I can just hook my Treo to my laptop and watch it via Verizon Wireless' EVDO. :)

MLB Network---Added to TWC guide on channel 326.
WKYC Weather Plus---Still available on channel 372.

I hope it stays that way. If they're gonna waste our HD bandwidth, then we better get to benefit from being able to see the channel. What kind of ass-backwards logic are they using? Pandering to OTA viewers. They're supposed to be pandering to us. You get what you pay for.;)

Just had a bit more info come across the local news about this TW/Viacom mess and said Viacom is pushing for a 21-30% per channel carriage fee increase. Know what I say? ****. YOU. Take your channels and shove 'em.

Exactly, couldn't have said it better myself.

Yeah but, we had WBNS, FOOD, History, A&E, HGTV for almost more than a month before other areas. I'm sure they'd add other channels here too. That way TWC can brag about how many channels NE Ohio has, even if they are not in all areas.

No you didn't nickdawg. We all got it at the same time.:rolleyes:

If I'm wrong show me the discussion that indicates we got it at separate times.

TW reached an agreement with Viacom at 11:48 last night. The channels will stay.

MLB Network---Added to TWC guide on channel 326.
WKYC Weather Plus---Still available on channel 372.

I hope it stays that way. If they're gonna waste our HD bandwidth, then we better get to benefit from being able to see the channel. What kind of ass-backwards logic are they using? Pandering to OTA viewers. They're supposed to be pandering to us. You get what you pay for.;)

Edit: I just checked and it's on my wife's television. Guide data is there too. So you really didn't get it before us since there was nothing but advertisements and no guide data.
And Happy New Year Everybody!!!! Here's hoping for better times for all of us and more HD channels for everybody's taste.

TW reached an agreement with Viacom at 11:48 last night. The channels will stay.

I kind of thought it would work out that way. Many cable companies will wait until the last minute. On the other hand think of all the advertising revenue that the channels would have lost had they not reached an agreement.

I kind of thought it would work out that way. Many cable companies will wait until the last minute. On the other hand think of all the advertising revenue that the channels would have lost had they not reached an agreement.

This little game becomes somewhat different when Viacom looks at losing 15 million viewers. You can mess around with Joe's Local Cable Co-Op, but numbers like that potentially impact the bottom line if they're not there to watch your shows.

I'm glad they figured it out. But if they didn't, I was ready to say "screw you, Viacom" and boycott all their channels...even if they'd eventually have come back.

MLB Network is live here as well on 326...with the running video counting down to a start at, I believe, 6 PM ET.

The TiVo is still running without a lineup change, but I can get to it manually.

MLB Network is live here as well on 326...with the running video counting down to a start at, I believe, 6 PM ET.

The TiVo is still running without a lineup change, but I can get to it manually.

For some reason TW doesn't hit my S3 from time to time when they add a new channel. Today it hit one of my cable cards on my TiVo HD but not the other. I did a channel rescan and that solved that, but the S3 I had to call customer service.

Here's the difficult part of owning a TiVo. These morons are programmed to think that all DVR's are their's. I say one of my TV's is not getting 236. They say, "wow you have 6 cable cards." Yes, but 3 televisions.

Now you would think they would understand the concept of pairing as their own boxes have cards now but they don't. And I tell them I have the cable card number and they say, "I need you to read the serial number on the back of the box.":mad: Listen, idiot this is my equipment and you don't know the serial number. I didn't say that but that's what I'm thinking.

I hung up on rep 1 and called back. Patiently I tried to explain about the cards. I read the card numbers to him. He says "You need to unplug your box, remove the cards, and reboot it." I say already did that. He says "in that case we will need to send a tech out.....":rolleyes:

I say no, just send a hit to those two cards and that will fix it. He does, and guess what? It fixed the problem. I let him know and he's thanking me for letting him know how to handle this, admits that he gets calls like this and doesn't have success and ask me to go over the procedure again. I do and he thanks me.

As more companies produce DVR's and there will be more these guys are going to have to get educated on their products, or just learn to listen to their customers.

Oh and I called TiVo and notified them of the channel change. That was another experience you can read about here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15430451#post15430451). Also I sent an email to zap2it.com.

This little game becomes somewhat different when Viacom looks at losing 15 million viewers. You can mess around with Joe's Local Cable Co-Op, but numbers like that potentially impact the bottom line if they're not there to watch your shows.

Exactly, Inundated. They were supposedly hurting for ad revenue prior to this, and they would've only shot themselves in their collective feet if they pulled the plug on their channels across the country.

Oh and I called TiVo and notified them of the channel change. That was another experience you can read about here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15430451#post15430451). Also I sent an email to zap2it.com.

Good. Then I don't have to :) Two times is probably best...at least one will get to TMS and make the change!

I've done this before...I'm the one who got the listings for the Cleveland feed of Fox Sports Ohio fixed on analog 30. That channel was showing the lineup for the Cincinnati feed, complete with Reds games.

If you go into the TiVo "live guide" and go to channel 30, then move the cursor on "30 FSNOH1", it now says "Fox Sports Ohio 1 (Cleveland feed)".

Got any idea what happened to WOIO and the other cable companies?

Got any idea what happened to WOIO and the other cable companies?

From the ABJ's Rich Heldenfels:

http://www.ohio.com/news/36966584.html


In a separate cable issue, Wadsworth Cable TV managed to avoid losing WOIO (Channel 19) and WUAB (Channel 43) when its current agreement to carry the stations ran out last night. Raycom Media, the stations' owner, agreed to extend the deal with Wadsworth until Jan. 12 so the two sides could continue negotiating.


I can't find anything about the Conneaut system.

No you didn't nickdawg. We all got it at the same time.:rolleyes:

If I'm wrong show me the discussion that indicates we got it at separate times.

I don't have time to read pages of conversation, but I did it anyway. Here you go!! Notice I commented about the new channels in March and Inundated said that "the ex Adelphia areas" got the lineup on 4/30. That's over a month later. And almost two months from the original announced date. So, if what someone here said was true about new channels coming in February, expect to see them in April(or May)! :p

03-18-08, 05:09 AM #11978 | Link
nickdawg
Uranium Member

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Akron, Ohio
Posts: 1,865

Big Grin The Channel Change Came!!!
Around 4:56 the new channels appeared. My lineup has been changed and the new HD channels added!! So far I'm not liking the new HD nationals. Paid Programming is on and they're stretchovision WBNX is OAR and 5.1

Interestingly, the new channels are not appearing on the Navigatored box yet.

04-30-08, 09:02 AM #12691 | Link
Inundated
AVS Special Member

Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 3,951

The lineup is in here in ex-Adelphia land in western Summit County. I haven't checked for any missing channels yet...

And hookbill? I HAVE an HD set now. But thanks for your generous offer.

I don't have time to read pages of conversation, but I did it anyway. Here you go!! Notice I commented about the new channels in March and Inundated said that "the ex Adelphia areas" got the lineup on 4/30. That's over a month later. And almost two months from the original announced date. So, if what someone here said was true about new channels coming in February, expect to see them in April(or May)! :p

03-18-08, 05:09 AM #11978 | Link
nickdawg
Uranium Member

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Akron, Ohio
Posts: 1,865

Big Grin The Channel Change Came!!!
Around 4:56 the new channels appeared. My lineup has been changed and the new HD channels added!! So far I'm not liking the new HD nationals. Paid Programming is on and they're stretchovision WBNX is OAR and 5.1

Interestingly, the new channels are not appearing on the Navigatored box yet.

04-30-08, 09:02 AM #12691 | Link
Inundated
AVS Special Member

Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 3,951

The lineup is in here in ex-Adelphia land in western Summit County. I haven't checked for any missing channels yet...

And hookbill? I HAVE an HD set now. But thanks for your generous offer.


You're talking about the channel change. Yes, you did get the line up change before we did but I don't recall if there were any HD channels there.

Anyway even if there was that's apples and oranges. That was a massive switch that took time to spread out around the area. I'm talking about getting a HD channel all by itself before we did.

Anyway even if there was that's apples and oranges. That was a massive switch that took time to spread out around the area. I'm talking about getting a HD channel all by itself before we did.

We had ESPN2HD nearly a year before they did. :)

(Of course, that's because it was left over from the Adelphia thing!)

From the ABJ's Rich Heldenfels:

http://www.ohio.com/news/36966584.html



I can't find anything about the Conneaut system.

Who cares, that's not even in the Cleveland market. ;)

Yeah, that's different than spam. That's adbots & malware. But if you have a good firewall and good anti-virus software (and updated regularly) then that shouldn't happen. I've run one home computer online 24/7x365 for the past six years plus a laptop online about half that time. I also use the laptop at free (sometimes illegal) WiFi spots while traveling. A third computer is on maybe 20 hours per week at home. I also prefer to shop online for the savings and convenience. I also run live media streaming devices that require 24/7 internet connections. All said, I've never once had a single issue with adbots or malware. Not one.

It all comes down to good prevention (firewalls and security settings for computers, router and networked devices), plus good anti-virus and don't visit known bad sites :p, then you should little if any problem. ;)

Correct, Malware I could not think of the term at the time. :)

Yeah a lot of people have such luck, but myself I don't trust internet commerece, I am consistantly being tried to get scammed when I post classifieds ect. Such security comes with a price, I'm not going to ask, but I can't imagine your monthly bills for this & the little tack on fees.... let alone how you can keep track of what you atre paying to whom. My ISP is 9.98 a month no ups, taxes or extras.

I recently picked up a New PC, I am dismayed on how it actually needs the internet & is asking for it too! I just wanted a machine to do my book keeping on that would be completly free of any external online forces. I am in dismay that MS premotes this, only allows one backup copy, does not give system discs with the systems anymore, & makes you rely on an ISP for updates instead of offering affordable or free (like they used to be) current system fixes. Upon turning on this machine, it wanted me to 'subscribe' to about 4 different services, which I could imagine would cost between $50-$100 a month.

I am disappointed with this new Machine (With Vista), because of this. I am unsure If I will continue to use the internet at some point in the near future. :(

Correct, Malware I could not think of the term at the time. :)

Yeah a lot of people have such luck, but myself I don't trust internet commerece, I am consistantly being tried to get scammed when I post classifieds ect. Such security comes with a price, I'm not going to ask, but I can't imagine your monthly bills for this & the little tack on fees.... let alone how you can keep track of what you atre paying to whom. My ISP is 9.98 a month no ups, taxes or extras.

I recently picked up a New PC, I am dismayed on how it actually needs the internet & is asking for it too! I just wanted a machine to do my book keeping on that would be completly free of any external online forces. I am in dismay that MS premotes this, only allows one backup copy, does not give system discs with the systems anymore, & makes you rely on an ISP for updates instead of offering affordable or free (like they used to be) current system fixes. Upon turning on this machine, it wanted me to 'subscribe' to about 4 different services, which I could imagine would cost between $50-$100 a month.

I am disappointed with this new Machine (With Vista), because of this. I am unsure If I will continue to use the internet at some point in the near future. :(

This is all off topic, but when was the last time you bought a computer? Better yet when was the last time you installed programs?

Yes, everything goes on the internet. My work when I call in sick I log it on the internet. As far as being safe in purchases so long as you see https at the start of the web address, then it's between you and the vendor. Of course you want to be careful who you buy from, but certainly Amazon.com and such is fine. Cables on Monoprice.com.

$9.95 for the internet? That's got to be dial up. I can't imagine using dial up. If it isn't then you got a deal but I'll bet you're going a snail's pace.

Want to avoid viruses? Get a Mac.

In regards to PC's, Mac's, or whatever eventually it's all going to be one. I don't know how you thing your going to avoid it. Your television eventually will be hooked up to your PC. I would imagine eventually the DVR's that the cable companies distribute will start communicating with PC's (or macs). Heck I use my TiVo all the time with my Mac and wireless internet. I program my TiVo with my Mac using the internet. I even check available disk on my TiVo space with Windows Vista that I run concurrent with my Mac.

I download HD programs off the internet. I scan them for viruses before I open them.

I was reading an article about how Yahoo is planning on being a major player along with Intel on Internet Television. I see a DVR being part of this, your DVR would stream the programming from the internet. Or you could watch from your computer.

In regards to PC's, Mac's, or whatever eventually it's all going to be one. I don't know how you thing your going to avoid it. Your television eventually will be hooked up to your PC. I would imagine eventually the DVR's that the cable companies distribute will start communicating with PC's (or macs). Heck I use my TiVo all the time with my Mac and wireless internet. I program my TiVo with my Mac using the internet. I even check available disk on my TiVo space with Windows Vista that I run concurrent with my Mac.

I download HD programs off the internet. I scan them for viruses before I open them.

I was reading an article about how Yahoo is planning on being a major player along with Intel on Internet Television. I see a DVR being part of this, your DVR would stream the programming from the internet. Or you could watch from your computer.

Hookbill, I can't imagine watching TV from a computer, let alone U-Tube!

I guess, when & if this becomes inevidable, OTA ends, my TV will go dark, or I'll just use it for VHS, DVD or the Atari 2600! .. no monthly fees at least. :)

TiVo I understood thinks for you & records shows you don't choose to watch, creating wear & tear on the hard drive leading to it's own destruction...true? :)

This is all off topic, but when was the last time you bought a computer? Better yet when was the last time you installed programs?

Yes, everything goes on the internet. My work when I call in sick I log it on the internet. As far as being safe in purchases so long as you see https at the start of the web address, then it's between you and the vendor. Of course you want to be careful who you buy from, but certainly Amazon.com and such is fine. Cables on Monoprice.com.

$9.95 for the internet? That's got to be dial up. I can't imagine using dial up. If it isn't then you got a deal but I'll bet you're going a snail's pace.

Want to avoid viruses? Get a Mac.

My apologies for going off topic but since you say TV will tie in with a PC eventually, so be it. My new machine I purchased earlier in the month does not have a serial port nor a parralel printer port... I do need these to operate older equipment too, as I was into amateur radio many of these devices can be programmed or controled by an older PC, the programs will no longer run on these newer machines, & I'm simply not going to trash perfectly good working equipment.

My current PC is a early 99 model, & yes I'm on dialup, you mean you can't purchase programs, install them & be done with it anymore??

I'm trying to sell a few things via this web & am recieving all kinds of replies from scammers (yes I can tell who they are) & when a box pops up on my screen from some stranger who is telling me all kinds of personal information about myself, (ie my machine type, where I am located), I feel I need to disconnect, do these peeps have lives or just like to torment others??

With the current state of the economy, having the consistant threat of being laid off for the past 15 years & making less than half of what I did 10 years ago, I find that I needed to economize & not get involved with monthly payments & long term contracts, in addition I hate to get spoiled & used to something I know I'll likely eventually have to give up. Just my way of thinking here, but for some it's nice to feel secure & not deny yourself some of these luxuries too. I also enjoy learning about some of this new technology from many of you.
:)

OK, Back on topic...

& BTW, I still am watching 1979, 1984, & 1996 model Televisions too! ;)

PSS.... I seem to have already forgot the password MS forced me to make for Vista... guess I have to trash the machine! :D

TiVo I understood thinks for you & records shows you don't choose to watch, creating wear & tear on the hard drive leading to it's own destruction...true? :)

That's just one of many reasons why I don't like Tivo. It's too "1984" "Big Brother"-ish to have a machine with a mind of its own think and record shows for me. I don't want some machine tracking what I watch with a mind of its own.

You're talking about the channel change. Yes, you did get the line up change before we did but I don't recall if there were any HD channels there.

Anyway even if there was that's apples and oranges. That was a massive switch that took time to spread out around the area. I'm talking about getting a HD channel all by itself before we did.

Umm, yes there were. STO HD, FOOD HD, A&E HD, HGTV HD, History HD, WBNX HD were added during the channel change. They were not added before. Since we got the channel change first, we got the channels first. And now with SDV, I can see the same thing happening. Why would they be pushing forward with SDV, only to wait for a system out in the boondocks to upgrade before adding anything? Large markets like this do this kind of thing. I've read about TWC in places like NY where channels are added in one area and others or none in another.

As usual with TWC, this new box had all the pay channels active when I picked it up. But something different happened this time, they shut everything off in about 24 hours. Those f**king bastards!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: I couldn't believe it. I was watching a movie on Showtime HD and right in the middle it went dark. A message even popped up stating "This Channel Has Been Disabled". Wow, aren't they nice!:rolleyes:

But overall, the 4250HD box is a great piece of equipment. Not as nice as the 8300HD I have, but worlds better than that Pioneer piece of s***. But again, the problems are ALL software related since they use the awful OCAP Digital Navigator(ODN) that is an entirely different animal than Mystro Digital Navigator(MDN) used on legacy boxes. I know SARA is the favorite whipping boy by some here(*AHEM*) but even SARA at its worst is better than ODN at its best. The channel banner is grotesquely oversized, the UI can be slow at times and I can grow a full wolf-man beard on a clean shaven face in the time it takes for th boot sequence;). My real dream is that they would start using SARA on all TWC systems, but I'd settle for navigator if they would adapt the MDN version for OCAP. Or abolish OCAP all together. That would be nice!:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

My only other gripe is the picture formats. I doubt this is software-related as Passport behaved the same way. If you connect the box using RF, S-Video or Composite there is no way to resize the picture on the HD channels. Since I am using this box on a SDTV in the bedroom, I had hoped that there was a way to change the picture size, like the CECB boxes can. However, all I get is either a squashed picture with bars on top and bottom or bars on all four sides:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:. But again, this is really no big deal, since all I do is not use the HDTV channels on that box. Since they started taking HD channels to feed SD, the SD channels look about the same, and they're 4:3 to fit my old TV screen.:D

Correct, Malware I could not think of the term at the time. :)

Yeah a lot of people have such luck, but myself I don't trust internet commerece, I am consistantly being tried to get scammed when I post classifieds ect. Such security comes with a price, I'm not going to ask, but I can't imagine your monthly bills for this & the little tack on fees.... let alone how you can keep track of what you atre paying to whom. My ISP is 9.98 a month no ups, taxes or extras.

I recently picked up a New PC, I am dismayed on how it actually needs the internet & is asking for it too! I just wanted a machine to do my book keeping on that would be completly free of any external online forces. I am in dismay that MS premotes this, only allows one backup copy, does not give system discs with the systems anymore, & makes you rely on an ISP for updates instead of offering affordable or free (like they used to be) current system fixes. Upon turning on this machine, it wanted me to 'subscribe' to about 4 different services, which I could imagine would cost between $50-$100 a month.

I am disappointed with this new Machine (With Vista), because of this. I am unsure If I will continue to use the internet at some point in the near future. :(

- Not luck, just basic and simple maintenance and precautions, like changing your oil every 3,000 miles
- Online bill pay, combined with buyers protection (and free extended warrantees) using a credit card, actually SIMPLIFIES what I'm paying to whom. ;)
- I pay only for high speed internet service, nothing more, nothing else :)
- I use Free AVG v.8, completely free anti virus & email protection, complete system scans, updates daily
- When using e-commerce or classifieds use a disposable email like Hotmail. When the junk starts piling up after a year or so, stop using that email and open a new one. Free.
- All business' are going to the internet and will "direct" you there (sometimes very aggressively). Local news programs even say "go to WOIO.com for more details". This is the future.

Sounds like most of your computer issues stem from you posting and using your real email where a disposable email could be used. See if your dial up provider will provide you with a new email for personal use (most allow 4 email accounts), turn off your present email, start using a Hotmail or like email service for e-commerce and anything posted online. In time I'll bet your online experience will improve dramatically. :)

As hook says, a home server for all entertainment is here and will be the future. If you can't get good OTA and you don't want to pay for cable (which I completely understand :cool:), there are THOUSANDS of completely free cable and internet broadcast channels on the internet. But you'll need a good virus free computer and high speed internet to access them. ;)

My apologies for going off topic but since you say TV will tie in with a PC eventually, so be it. My new machine I purchased earlier in the month does not have a serial port nor a parralel printer port... I do need these to operate older equipment too, as I was into amateur radio many of these devices can be programmed or controled by an older PC, the programs will no longer run on these newer machines, & I'm simply not going to trash perfectly good working equipment.

My current PC is a early 99 model, & yes I'm on dialup, you mean you can't purchase programs, install them & be done with it anymore??

I'm trying to sell a few things via this web & am recieving all kinds of replies from scammers (yes I can tell who they are) & when a box pops up on my screen from some stranger who is telling me all kinds of personal information about myself, (ie my machine type, where I am located), I feel I need to disconnect, do these peeps have lives or just like to torment others??

With the current state of the economy, having the consistant threat of being laid off for the past 15 years & making less than half of what I did 10 years ago, I find that I needed to economize & not get involved with monthly payments & long term contracts, in addition I hate to get spoiled & used to something I know I'll likely eventually have to give up. Just my way of thinking here, but for some it's nice to feel secure & not deny yourself some of these luxuries too. I also enjoy learning about some of this new technology from many of you.
:)

OK, Back on topic...

& BTW, I still am watching 1979, 1984, & 1996 model Televisions too! ;)

PSS.... I seem to have already forgot the password MS forced me to make for Vista... guess I have to trash the machine! :D

No apology necessary. I do it all the time, probably more then anyone else.

As far as selling things goes on the web, yes that can be difficult to start. You need to "establish" yourself on the net, like in ebay where you get feedback and then more people buy from you.

The wife and I have "AntiqueParrot" on ebay and we never had problems selling stuff because she new how to present the items, and developed our reputation. 100% positive feedback. We haven't sold anything however in quite some time.

I have Vista on my Mac and while it asked me to establish a password, I didn't have to. But once you do I think you're stuck.

Back on topic with your televisions, I think Inundated probably has sets like that laying around his house. He's a very high tech person but he doesn't like to replace it if it ain't broke. You don't know how long I nagged him into buying a HDTV. I tried embarrassing him. I tried everything. Finally he broke down (nothing to do with me) and bought one.:)

Edit: One thing I didn't touch on. Yes you can buy programs and install them but most of the time now you can download them from the internet. However in your case with dial up, lord knows how long that would take. You can even purchase Vista on line but an install via dial up I think would be impossible.

Almost all new programs will need to access the internet from time to time to update. Take your anti virus. I update mine daily automatically through the web. Is that necessary? Yes, because new virus and malware are developed daily. If you're not updating daily, you should. And those suggestions toby10 gave you for software are all good suggestions. I also recommend downloading free Zone Alarm and turning off your Windows firewall. www.downloads.com. You can get all that stuff there. Free. And you can test your security here (http://www.grc.com/default.htm).

Umm, yes there were. STO HD, FOOD HD, A&E HD, HGTV HD, History HD, WBNX HD were added during the channel change. They were not added before. Since we got the channel change first, we got the channels first. And now with SDV, I can see the same thing happening. Why would they be pushing forward with SDV, only to wait for a system out in the boondocks to upgrade before adding anything? Large markets like this do this kind of thing. I've read about TWC in places like NY where channels are added in one area and others or none in another.

OK. I hope you get it first. Maybe you'll stop whining so much.:D:D:D

That's just one of many reasons why I don't like Tivo. It's too "1984" "Big Brother"-ish to have a machine with a mind of its own think and record shows for me. I don't want some machine tracking what I watch with a mind of its own.

In your case I think you need someone to make decisions for you.:rolleyes:

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU THIS: YOU CAN TURN THE SUGGESTIONS OFF!

I never turn mine on. I don't even look at the suggestions. And those suggestions if you do record them are based on how you rate shows. You give it 1-3 thumbs up or down. It doesn't record shows you give a thumbs down to. And it also doesn't use disk space, TiVo suggestions are deleted for your own programs.

As usual with TWC, this new box had all the pay channels active when I picked it up. But something different happened this time, they shut everything off in about 24 hours. Those f**king bastards!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: I couldn't believe it. I was watching a movie on Showtime HD and right in the middle it went dark. A message even popped up stating "This Channel Has Been Disabled". Wow, aren't they nice!:rolleyes:

nickdawg, could it be possible that since your box was brand new it shut down to do a software upgrade?

In your case I think you need someone to make decisions for you.:rolleyes:

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU THIS: YOU CAN TURN THE SUGGESTIONS OFF!

I never turn mine on. I don't even look at the suggestions. And those suggestions if you do record them are based on how you rate shows. You give it 1-3 thumbs up or down. It doesn't record shows you give a thumbs down to. And it also doesn't use disk space, TiVo suggestions are deleted for your own programs.

Until it gets a mind of its own. And then once you lose your job and friends, it goes after your mom with a baseball bat. :p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p :D:D:D:D:D

http://www.thatvideosite.com/video/893

I just upgraded my TiVoHD with a Terabyte of storage. It's a lot easier to upgrade than the old days using a Linux command line editor and a Terminal serial connection.

When is Time Warner adding FX HD??? Nip Tuck starts next week.

Also, anyone not getting channel 436 on their TiVoHD or Series 3? I think I'm having the same problem I had before after the summer TiVo update that folks like me in Lorain County and Mentor had.

I just upgraded my TiVoHD with a Terabyte of storage. It's a lot easier to upgrade than the old days using a Linux command line editor and a Terminal serial connection.

When is Time Warner adding FX HD??? Nip Tuck starts next week.

Also, anyone not getting channel 436 on their TiVoHD or Series 3? I think I'm having the same problem I had before after the summer TiVo update that folks like me in Lorain County and Mentor had.


Hey, congrats on the upgrade. Don't forget you can still add an additional 500gb with an eSATA and if you have a wireless network, your computer can be available as well.

Their is no evidence that FXHD is being added. This is wishful thinking and speculation. I truly wish it was being added it's one of my favorites.

In my "research" of how TW adds HD channels, FX does not appear to be one of the channels they add on until after SDV and then I don't know how much longer afterwards.

I see it's available on the Columbus line up.

Until it gets a mind of its own. And then once you lose your job and friends, it goes after your mom with a baseball bat. :p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p :D:D:D:D:D

http://www.thatvideosite.com/video/893

I just noticed the link you put on there at the end of your statement. At first I just thought it was more nickdawg crazy talk but I clicked the link. Very good, nickdawg.

You shouldn't have told me what was happening. You should have said "This is why I won't buy TiVo" and put a hyper link somewheres. You spoiled the ending!!!!

Very Funny. Thanks.:D:D

I just noticed the link you put on there at the end of your statement. At first I just thought it was more nickdawg crazy talk but I clicked the link. Very good, nickdawg.

You shouldn't have told me what was happening. You should have said "This is why I won't buy TiVo" and put a hyper link somewheres. You spoiled the ending!!!!

Very Funny. Thanks.:D:D

I was wondering why you hadn't commented on it!
That was a funny clip. :cool:

I was wondering why you hadn't commented on it!
That was a funny clip. :cool:

I'm wondering how come nickdawg didn't comment on my suggestion that his box was updating, and that was probably why it went out on him.

I'm wondering how come nickdawg didn't comment on my suggestion that his box was updating, and that was probably why it went out on him.

I suspect he's too busy scouring the internet to find a knock off clip of the movie Videodrome, where anything presented in "stretch-o-vision" is actually a form of mind control to get people to buy more premium cable services. :D

Conneaut is in the Cleveland market...by a hair. :D

The market actually extends from the OH/PA border up there, to Mansfield, to Sandusky. It's basically all of Northeast Ohio except for Trumbull/Mahoning/Columbiana Counties.

That's just one of many reasons why I don't like Tivo. It's too "1984" "Big Brother"-ish to have a machine with a mind of its own think and record shows for me. I don't want some machine tracking what I watch with a mind of its own.

There's not much "mind" in the Suggestions.

I have about four or five old sitcoms (70's-80's era) going on Auto Record Wish Lists. If I go in and look at Suggestions, it wants to record every sitcom ever made, it seems. I also record a 70's game show because a dear friend of mine was a contestant on a few episodes in 1978, and Suggestions thinks I'm a big game show fan. :D

Like most TiVo owners, one of the first things I did was turn off the auto recording Suggestions. It still accumulates the lists, but I have to go in and look for them.

There's not much "mind" in the Suggestions.

I have about four or five old sitcoms (70's-80's era) going on Auto Record Wish Lists. If I go in and look at Suggestions, it wants to record every sitcom ever made, it seems. I also record a 70's game show because a dear friend of mine was a contestant on a few episodes in 1978, and Suggestions thinks I'm a big game show fan. :D

Like most TiVo owners, one of the first things I did was turn off the auto recording Suggestions. It still accumulates the lists, but I have to go in and look for them.

God forbid if it finds out if you like Cops.:eek:

I remember having suggestions on with my old D-TiVo and it recorded every Cops there was. Between the old Court TV and FX, local FOX my goodness, it was amazing how many episodes it would record.

My solution at the time was to give it a thumbs down. Eventually like most everyone else I found suggestions not to helpful and I had so much stuff I picked on my own it was unnecessary.

No apology necessary. I do it all the time, probably more then anyone else.

As far as selling things goes on the web, yes that can be difficult to start. You need to "establish" yourself on the net, like in ebay where you get feedback and then more people buy from you.

The wife and I have "AntiqueParrot" on ebay and we never had problems selling stuff because she new how to present the items, and developed our reputation. 100% positive feedback. We haven't sold anything however in quite some time.

I have Vista on my Mac and while it asked me to establish a password, I didn't have to. But once you do I think you're stuck.

Back on topic with your televisions, I think Inundated probably has sets like that laying around his house. He's a very high tech person but he doesn't like to replace it if it ain't broke. You don't know how long I nagged him into buying a HDTV. I tried embarrassing him. I tried everything. Finally he broke down (nothing to do with me) and bought one.:)

Edit: One thing I didn't touch on. Yes you can buy programs and install them but most of the time now you can download them from the internet. However in your case with dial up, lord knows how long that would take. You can even purchase Vista on line but an install via dial up I think would be impossible.

Almost all new programs will need to access the internet from time to time to update. Take your anti virus. I update mine daily automatically through the web. Is that necessary? Yes, because new virus and malware are developed daily. If you're not updating daily, you should. And those suggestions toby10 gave you for software are all good suggestions. I also recommend downloading free Zone Alarm and turning off your Windows firewall. www.downloads.com. You can get all that stuff there. Free. And you can test your security here (http://www.grc.com/default.htm).

Thanks all for your insight, ya know I do keep some of this in mind either as a learning experience, a few things I may follow through, although by the time that happens all this information will be obsolete! :D

I do run a Zone alarm, but it no longer supports updates on my system, I would rather I just download the update instead of the machine installing it at will, therefore when I need to reformat it's all back to square one :(

I tend to run things to the ground, but after all it won't be my children or grandchildren inherating this 'landfill' of obsolete technology, so I really shouldn't care.;)... if it works though why fix it?? I like my older PC systems better than this new one, & I really think it's the OS itself that is putting a bad taste in my mouth.

That's just one of many reasons why I don't like Tivo. It's too "1984" "Big Brother"-ish to have a machine with a mind of its own think and record shows for me. I don't want some machine tracking what I watch with a mind of its own.

I think my PC has days like that too! Reason why I like to be 'disconnected' most of the time. All the errant information that is availble online about me, mispelled names, wrong addresses, ect, but that is a good thing! :)

Am I the only one that dislikes this black 'piano' finish that is on most all frames of the newer TV's??

This may look good out of the box, but just from handling this, it looks awful in a short time... this had to be an idea in design from a woman :D... probably the same person that made a decision to paint telephones. :)

Understand this was a Samsung thing & everyone followed suit.

Am I the only one that dislikes this black 'piano' finish that is on most all frames of the newer TV's??

This may look good out of the box, but just from handling this, it looks awful in a short time... this had to be an idea in design from a woman :D... probably the same person that made a decision to paint telephones. :)

Understand this was a Samsung thing & everyone followed suit.

Black in electronics is making a come back for some time now. If you think back everything was black. Then silver came into play. Now it's gloss black.

Personally, I like the looks but I don't like the fact that dust shows up on it so easily. When you have 10 birds all the hepa filters in the world don't help much.

Birds are very dusty. Specially my cockatoo. You should see HIS room.:)

Another suggestion: Pledge dusting towels. I keep them right on my entertainment center.;)

Black in electronics is making a come back for some time now. If you think back everything was black. Then silver came into play. Now it's gloss black.

Personally, I like the looks but I don't like the fact that dust shows up on it so easily. When you have 10 birds all the hepa filters in the world don't help much.

Birds are very dusty. Specially my cockatoo. You should see HIS room.:)

Another suggestion: Pledge dusting towels. I keep them right on my entertainment center.;)

Oh, not against black but the gloss finish shows every fingerprint & is prone to minute scratched EVERY time that it is handled.... I'm debating on that the next trend is, just on principle alone, I would wait till the next trend comes out (Unless it is white)... the gloss black is plain UGLY!. Plus the gloss frame produces a nasty glare!

My prefrences was the charcoal grey or dark silver &/or the satin black.

Then again there is my Pioneer SX3700 that has walnut slab sides & a brushed chrome front panel! :)

God forbid if it finds out if you like Cops.:eek:

I remember having suggestions on with my old D-TiVo and it recorded every Cops there was. Between the old Court TV and FX, local FOX my goodness, it was amazing how many episodes it would record.

My solution at the time was to give it a thumbs down. Eventually like most everyone else I found suggestions not to helpful and I had so much stuff I picked on my own it was unnecessary.

Out of control, much like Junk mail. :)

Hey, congrats on the upgrade. Don't forget you can still add an additional 500gb with an eSATA and if you have a wireless network, your computer can be available as well.

Their is no evidence that FXHD is being added. This is wishful thinking and speculation. I truly wish it was being added it's one of my favorites.

In my "research" of how TW adds HD channels, FX does not appear to be one of the channels they add on until after SDV and then I don't know how much longer afterwards.

I see it's available on the Columbus line up.

And it will be on the TWC Akron lineup sometime in February or March. :p;)
Once SDV gets past the infomercial tier, the channels should start lighting up. So far it works. If you tune to 185 or above, they look like regular channels. There really isn't anything different about their appearance. However, the only thing I've noticed is that boot time takes much longer now. It took close to 10 minutes for the OCAP box to boot and the 8300HD is not far behind.

I'm wondering how come nickdawg didn't comment on my suggestion that his box was updating, and that was probably why it went out on him.

I don't think it updated, because the box shuts off and goes through a reboot when it updates. When these channels went dark, it just blacked out, but regular channels(404, 405, 251, 329, etc) still worked. Plus we're talking about TWC here. Like they would ever upgrade this. It appears to be the exact same buggy software that plagued the DVR I had a year ago.

There's not much "mind" in the Suggestions.

I have about four or five old sitcoms (70's-80's era) going on Auto Record Wish Lists. If I go in and look at Suggestions, it wants to record every sitcom ever made, it seems. I also record a 70's game show because a dear friend of mine was a contestant on a few episodes in 1978, and Suggestions thinks I'm a big game show fan. :D

Like most TiVo owners, one of the first things I did was turn off the auto recording Suggestions. It still accumulates the lists, but I have to go in and look for them.

It's a good thing that can be shut off. Other than issues I mentioned before, I'd be afraid of hard drive wear if it's recording "suggested" shows when it's not recording your shows. I've noticed with the 8300HD that if the box is turned off and not recording or inactive, the hard drives actually shut down to reduce wear. It even says in the instruction manual(which I doubt many people even have) that you're supposed to shut the 8300HD off when you shut the TV off so the disk shuts off. I notice it when I turn it on, there's a "computer starting" sound. How about Tivo? Do they say anything about turning it off?

Am I the only one that dislikes this black 'piano' finish that is on most all frames of the newer TV's??

This may look good out of the box, but just from handling this, it looks awful in a short time... this had to be an idea in design from a woman :D... probably the same person that made a decision to paint telephones. :)

Understand this was a Samsung thing & everyone followed suit.

Black in electronics is making a come back for some time now. If you think back everything was black. Then silver came into play. Now it's gloss black.

Personally, I like the looks but I don't like the fact that dust shows up on it so easily. When you have 10 birds all the hepa filters in the world don't help much.

Birds are very dusty. Specially my cockatoo. You should see HIS room.:)

Another suggestion: Pledge dusting towels. I keep them right on my entertainment center.;)

I like the finishes. Only thing I don't like is when it gets dusty or there's smudges.:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: On the other had, I do love silver. My 8300HD and surround sound receiver are silver along with the speakers. The TV is gloss black with silver around the edges. DVD player is from 2001, so it's older and more of a charcoal color. Interestingly, it matches the metal frame of my TV stand. :) I love it, the glass shelf TV stand, the glossy black TV, the big screen. It's a PITA to keep clean though. That's a good idea, I'm gonna have to go get some more Pledge towels and keep them by the TV. :D:D:D:D:D

It's a good thing that can be shut off. Other than issues I mentioned before, I'd be afraid of hard drive wear if it's recording "suggested" shows when it's not recording your shows. I've noticed with the 8300HD that if the box is turned off and not recording or inactive, the hard drives actually shut down to reduce wear. It even says in the instruction manual(which I doubt many people even have) that you're supposed to shut the 8300HD off when you shut the TV off so the disk shuts off. I notice it when I turn it on, there's a "computer starting" sound. How about Tivo? Do they say anything about turning it off?

nickdawg, every DVR constantly records. When you watch something "live" it is still a delay from being recorded. I'll bet Inundated's S2 has been plugged in for years now. Heck my S3 has been plugged in and on for two years.

You can't really shut the SA 8300 off it's always on even if the light isn't on. That's how it records when it's off. Do you hear it start up at the start of a recording?

TiVo has a stand by mode, but really it's on just like the SA 8300. I've never put it on stand by. But from what I read everybody says it's still on so I don't know if the hard drive turns off or not. My understanding is it really doesn't.

Turn it on sometime and hit the play button. Is the green line there with recording?

I live in Copley and am planning to switch from TWC to Dish. I'd like to try getting my HD locals OTA with indoor antennas. To use DVR effectively, I'd like to avoid the need to adjust the antenna for different stations. From what I've been able to find online, all the Cleveland channels I care about (3,5,8,19,25,43) are in the Parma farm, 18.5 to 22.2 miles distant and within 5 degrees on the compass.

Any suggestions for an indoor antenna that is meeting similar requirements for other users? (I did search the thread but didn't come up with anything concrete.)

nickdawg, every DVR constantly records. When you watch something "live" it is still a delay from being recorded. I'll bet Inundated's S2 has been plugged in for years now. Heck my S3 has been plugged in and on for two years.

Yes, you're right...the S2 has been on all the time since I bought it, which I believe was in September 2003. Wow! It's been in service for over 5 years. I've seen a glitch or two lately that makes me wonder if the hard drive is still OK, but nothing serious (some pixelation, but rare). It's been running full time all that time.

I live in Copley and am planning to switch from TWC to Dish. I'd like to try getting my HD locals OTA with indoor antennas. To use DVR effectively, I'd like to avoid the need to adjust the antenna for different stations. From what I've been able to find online, all the Cleveland channels I care about (3,5,8,19,25,43) are in the Parma farm, 18.5 to 22.2 miles distant and within 5 degrees on the compass.

Any suggestions for an indoor antenna that is meeting similar requirements for other users? (I did search the thread but didn't come up with anything concrete.)

I'm not sure I've seen the "Holy Grail" of indoor antennas. But you shouldn't have too much trouble...you're not that far from me, and about the same distance from the antenna farm stations.

A couple of words of advice:

First, if you have something already, indoor antenna-wise, just try it and see. Do you have a digital OTA tuner anywhere now, on a TV or even a CECB ("Coupon Eligible Converter Box")?

The "Silver Sensor", a highly directional but well-designed non-amplified antenna might be a good choice, or even an outdoor 2-bay or 4-bay UHF antenna mounted in an attic or something. But trying other options first could save you $ if you're concerned about that.

But we're not entirely abandoning the VHF band in this market. WOIO-DT is staying on VHF 10. WJW-DT is moving to VHF 8 for digital on 2/17. There are Silver Sensor "clones" I've never tried, that do have VHF dipoles.

Most of the Cleveland locals are no problem for me down here near the Merriman Valley (but not in the Valley itself, higher terrain). 3 and 25 are not present at all here right now, since 3 is on DT 2 (BAD channel position analog, even worse for digital due to noise!) and 25 is on a low-power second-generation temporary 10,000 watt antenna.

Whenever the joint WKYC/WVIZ tower is finished, after 2/17/09 WKYC will mvoe to digital RF channel 17 (WDLI Canton will go dark analog-wise) and WVIZ will go full-power, and that means both should show up here.

Where are you in relation to Akron's own "antenna farm?" (WVPX/WEAO/etc.) That might shed light on some things, and some say the Akron stations have trouble reaching over Richfield due to terrain...which may or may not be blocking you in the other direction from Parma.

Also, a very important note...unless you just so happen to find the sweetest of sweet spots, indoor antennas may have to be nudged around if you're tuning between channels (see "directional antenna" above). Just a thought, since you're using a DVR...if you have any way to use an outdoor antenna, even a modest one, high up on your building if possible...

Yes, you're right...the S2 has been on all the time since I bought it, which I believe was in September 2003. Wow! It's been in service for over 5 years. I've seen a glitch or two lately that makes me wonder if the hard drive is still OK, but nothing serious (some pixelation, but rare). It's been running full time all that time.

I see pixelation on digital and analog channels from time to time. I'm positive that it has nothing to do with my hard drive.

In comparison to what I had with the SA 8300 SARA the HD picture is so much better that I can say I never truly understood HD until I got rid of that thing. I thought a warped picture was common with HD broadcast.

Of course when I replaced my CRT Sony WEGA with my LG37 LCD I said the same thing too.;)

There is a thread in this forum that deals strictly with antennas. I found the one I have in there and while it still doesn't pick up all channels (I have a Southwest Window) it does a better job then the first one I picked up at Rat Shack when I got the converter box. It's silver and my wife say's it looks like the star ship Enterprise.:)

I'd take a look at it for you and tell you the name but it's too early to disturb Tyler, and anyway just moving it a little bit can make such a difference!

Edit: I found it here (http://www.amazon.com/Philips-PHDTV3-Indoor-Amplified-Antenna/dp/B000B58VNM/ref=pd_bxgy_e_img_b). I paid the same price at Target. And make sure you get a UHF/VHF as our local channels broadcast on both VHF and UHF digitally.

The gloss black syndrome works like this: Never clean it and never touch it and it works fine.
JJK

The gloss black syndrome works like this: Never clean it and never touch it and it works fine.
JJK


OK........................:eek::eek::eek:

I live in Copley and am planning to switch from TWC to Dish. I'd like to try getting my HD locals OTA with indoor antennas. To use DVR effectively, I'd like to avoid the need to adjust the antenna for different stations. From what I've been able to find online, all the Cleveland channels I care about (3,5,8,19,25,43) are in the Parma farm, 18.5 to 22.2 miles distant and within 5 degrees on the compass.

Any suggestions for an indoor antenna that is meeting similar requirements for other users? (I did search the thread but didn't come up with anything concrete.)

Chris, I would agree with Inundated's advice. I also live in Akron, near the valley. I use an indoor antenna similar to the Silver Sensor, but it also has rabbit ears attached to it for the VHF channels. It's called the Terk HDTVi. You will need some sort on VHF antenna after February if you would like to receive WOIO or WJW.

I would also like to add that the tuner also matters. The older tuners are usually crappier and don't perform as well. I purchased one in 2003, and it doesn't compare to the tuner that's built-in to my new HDTV. Last time I checked, the tuners were up to the 5th generation, and these are more capable of dealing with multipath (or ghosting) issues that you may notice on analog.

Just curious - we in Erie County, PA have not even had our channel lineup realigned yet. First it was supposed to be last March, then August, then Dec. 18th, but still nothing. We have one pay-per-view movie channel, no VOD, not even the MLB Network that the whole world got on 1/1. We also only have a handful of HD channels.

I'm just wondering if we are the only "forgotten" area in all of TW's NE Ohio region. If anyone else still has this poor of a system, could you please chime in? I'd like to be able to point this out to TW (not like it'll do any good, of course!).

Just curious - we in Erie County, PA have not even had our channel lineup realigned yet. First it was supposed to be last March, then August, then Dec. 18th, but still nothing. We have one pay-per-view movie channel, no VOD, not even the MLB Network that the whole world got on 1/1. We also only have a handful of HD channels.

I'm just wondering if we are the only "forgotten" area in all of TW's NE Ohio region. If anyone else still has this poor of a system, could you please chime in? I'd like to be able to point this out to TW (not like it'll do any good, of course!).

I hate to say this, but are you sure? One of the guys who post here, ErieMarty, is from that area and he seems to have the same lineup. He was just talking the other day about MLB network on 326 and he's right, that's where it is with the new lineup.

Oh, I just caught the part where you said no VOD. Are you using a moto box?

Just curious - we in Erie County, PA have not even had our channel lineup realigned yet. First it was supposed to be last March, then August, then Dec. 18th, but still nothing. We have one pay-per-view movie channel, no VOD, not even the MLB Network that the whole world got on 1/1. We also only have a handful of HD channels.

Scrnfrq, are you living in an apartment complex that has it's own internal system with TW feeding it? Some complexes can have issues with bandwidth on their internal system.

Scrnfrq, are you living in an apartment complex that has it's own internal system with TW feeding it? Some complexes can have issues with bandwidth on their internal system.

Huh? What in the world would that have to do with his cable lineup? I mean if they change the lineup wouldn't that be for everybody? How can he have a different lineup unless he's in another part of Erie County then ErieMarty and they never changed the lineup.

Apparently Customer Service is advising him that the change is coming. Also no on demand. That would make sense because on demand would have to be on the same channels.

I think.:confused::confused::confused:

I just had a thought. I don't know if this will help him or not, but when the lineup change came through one of my TiVo's changed on it's own, the other one didn't. So it is possible to have two lineups at one time!

I had to run guided set up on my S3 and then when it came to picking my cable company I selected Time Warner Cleveland Digital Rebuild. That put my S3 on track.

Now I know he doesn't have a TiVo, or at least I don't think he does. scnrfrq, have you tried just rebooting your box or DVR? I can't believe they haven't completed the lineup change and I can believe that you hit some really dumb CSR's.

Well, guys, it's real. Only the City of Erie has the new lineup, and they have for about a year. All the rest of Erie County is still stuck with the old Adelphia lineup. We have nothing new here at all, and people are really up in arms about it, but there's nothing we can do apparently. Even our Supervisors wouldn't answer my emails and get involved.

The last thing TW did was announce it would happen on 12/18. They even took out an ad in the paper 2 days before. They had it up on their info channel too, but pulled it the night before. But nothing was done, and we're STILL waiting for some kind of explanation. The TW reps are clueless.

Are you still getting UHD on 470? I remember you've said that UHD was still coming in without paying for the HDTV tier.

Well, that's a mistake. I called TWC about getting UHD, since they finally have some programming worth watching:(WWE repeats from USA/SCIFI, Psych, Monk, Becker, Burn Notice, L&O, etc). No way in hell am I missing this---in HD!! Those are all my favorite shows. Anyway, to get UHD, I had to buy the whole BS tier.:(:( I just hope TWC adds the regular versions of these channels soon.

TWC has a deal with the Universal networks. There actually are TWC systems that have USA HD, SCIFI HD and CBNC HD. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Well, guys, it's real. Only the City of Erie has the new lineup, and they have for about a year. All the rest of Erie County is still stuck with the old Adelphia lineup. We have nothing new here at all, and people are really up in arms about it, but there's nothing we can do apparently. Even our Supervisors wouldn't answer my emails and get involved.

The last thing TW did was announce it would happen on 12/18. They even took out an ad in the paper 2 days before. They had it up on their info channel too, but pulled it the night before. But nothing was done, and we're STILL waiting for some kind of explanation. The TW reps are clueless.

I don't know what to tell you. Steve Fry is President of TWCNEO. You can email him at steve.fry@twc.com.

You will get a response, make sure you put your phone number or account number so they can reach you. Fry won't contact you personally, but someone from his office or a manager in your area will. Tell him all the facts just like you did in the quoted post.

Are you still getting UHD on 470? I remember you've said that UHD was still coming in without paying for the HDTV tier.

Well, that's a mistake. I called TWC about getting UHD, since they finally have some programming worth watching:(WWE repeats from USA/SCIFI, Psych, Monk, Becker, Burn Notice, L&O, etc). No way in hell am I missing this---in HD!! Those are all my favorite shows. Anyway, to get UHD, I had to buy the whole BS tier.:(:( I just hope TWC adds the regular versions of these channels soon.

TWC has a deal with the Universal networks. There actually are TWC systems that have USA HD, SCIFI HD and CBNC HD. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Heh heh, yes I still get it. I just checked!:p:p:p:D:D:D

Cough up the 5 bucks, nickdawg.;)

Heh heh, yes I still get it. I just checked!:p:p:p:D:D:D

Cough up the 5 bucks, nickdawg.;)

Actually, it should read: Cough up the $6.95, nickdawg.;) :p:p:p

I was disappointed I have to pay for 4 channels to get the one I want.

Hey, what's your TWC account #? I need to make a phone call!:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Well, guys, it's real. Only the City of Erie has the new lineup, and they have for about a year. All the rest of Erie County is still stuck with the old Adelphia lineup. We have nothing new here at all, and people are really up in arms about it, but there's nothing we can do apparently. Even our Supervisors wouldn't answer my emails and get involved.

If it means anything, I believe the city system is the legacy Time Warner system, and the county is former Adelphia.

First, if you have something already, indoor antenna-wise, just try it and see. Do you have a digital OTA tuner anywhere now, on a TV or even a CECB ("Coupon Eligible Converter Box")?

I have three HDTVs with integrated tuners, a 42" Panasonic plasma that is about three years old, a brand new 32" JVC, and a brand new 22" Insignia for the kids. So, I have places to test it out.


Where are you in relation to Akron's own "antenna farm?" (WVPX/WEAO/etc.) That might shed light on some things, and some say the Akron stations have trouble reaching over Richfield due to terrain...which may or may not be blocking you in the other direction from Parma.

I'm a little less than 2 miles north of the WEAO tower. It's at bearing 215 degrees from me. Thanks for the terrific summary of the current situation on frequencies and towers for our market. I had found some of that info, but not all of it.


Also, a very important note...unless you just so happen to find the sweetest of sweet spots, indoor antennas may have to be nudged around if you're tuning between channels (see "directional antenna" above). Just a thought, since you're using a DVR...if you have any way to use an outdoor antenna, even a modest one, high up on your building if possible...
I had a rooftop yagi at a previous house in NW Akron that I diplexed with satellite quite successfully, but I only had one TV then.

My current house has a steeply pitched roof that I don't intend to climb on. I suppose that if I could hang an antenna from an eave or off the back of the house, it would be ok as long as I could figure out how to diplex it in. I notice that the new Dish receivers take two cables from the satellite dish, and I haven't done the research necessary to digest what that means for my installation. The house has RG-6 running to each room from a central location in the basement where all the utilities enter. I want to use that cabling in place.

Chris

the city has pretty much the same lineup as everyone in NE Ohio..minus Locals and we also get Fox Pittsburgh..for all the squeeler/Pirates and Pens fans in NW PA..(but not in HD..which does upset me)....

The county was suppose to switch over to what the city gets back in the middle of December and TW Even put an Ad in our local paper the monday before telling everyone its going to happen on this date..later that week..and nothing has happened..

plus our last Local Station (WJET/ABC) to switch to HD is now over the Air in HD for at least a month and TW hasn't added it..I know a lot of Penn State fans were upset they couldn't get the Rose Bowl in HD ...

Thats the reason I post on this Cleveland Forum because what ever you guys get we should be getting in NW PA from Time Warner..

but it sucks for TW to make promises and not keep them or even update there news page on their web site for upcoming changes..its still says this and thats going to happen in the middle of December 2008

Huh? What in the world would that have to do with his cable lineup? I mean if they change the lineup wouldn't that be for everybody?

While it turned out to be something different in this case, there are some apartment complexes that have vestiges of old systems in place, with some channels sucked out by deletion/insertion filters and other channels inserted in their place. Sometimes this is because of bulk transmission arrangements; other times it's a workaround for older <300mhz systems. I have friends who've lived in places like this, where they might strip/reinsert some channels in their wiring closet and generally move things around.

I'm a little less than 2 miles north of the WEAO tower. It's at bearing 215 degrees from me. Thanks for the terrific summary of the current situation on frequencies and towers for our market. I had found some of that info, but not all of it.


I found that "ridge" one of our regulars keeps talking about, that he says prevents some folks north of Richfield from getting a good signal out of the Akron TV stations (WEAO, WVPX, and WDLI, which is digitally located around there despite being licensed to Canton).

The "highest point in Summit County" is clearly marked by a county sign on Ohio 176 in the northern part of Richfield, not far from the township border.

I don't know if that would get between you and Parma...I'm guessing not.

My current house has a steeply pitched roof that I don't intend to climb on. I suppose that if I could hang an antenna from an eave or off the back of the house, it would be ok as long as I could figure out how to diplex it in.

See, that's my main concern about what you're doing here...the fact that you're hoping for uninterrupted signals for DVR recording of different channels at the same time.

I'm guessing that would be a crapshoot for an indoor antenna, at least one 20 miles or so out. You could get all the big signals, but could you find one placement that gets you all the channels, all the time, without breakup or having to move the antenna? If your indoor antenna is near your set, and you don't mind nudging it if the signals get out of whack, that's one thing. With a DVR, you won't be there to adjust.

Others who record stuff using OTA antennas are more than welcome to chime in with experience here.

but it sucks for TW to make promises and not keep them or even update there news page on their web site for upcoming changes..its still says this and thats going to happen in the middle of December 2008

I think I read somewhere that the old Adelphia system in the county up there was bandwidth-limited compared to the city's TWC system in Erie itself. This may be one reason, as the upgrade would take somewhat longer in the county if that was the case.

Apparently Mr. Fry's address has been changed to steve.fry@twcable.com.

I found that "ridge" one of our regulars keeps talking about, that he says prevents some folks north of Richfield from getting a good signal out of the Akron TV stations (WEAO, WVPX, and WDLI, which is digitally located around there despite being licensed to Canton).

The "highest point in Summit County" is clearly marked by a county sign on Ohio 176 in the northern part of Richfield, not far from the township border.

I don't know if that would get between you and Parma...I'm guessing not.



See, that's my main concern about what you're doing here...the fact that you're hoping for uninterrupted signals for DVR recording of different channels at the same time.

I'm guessing that would be a crapshoot for an indoor antenna, at least one 20 miles or so out. You could get all the big signals, but could you find one placement that gets you all the channels, all the time, without breakup or having to move the antenna? If your indoor antenna is near your set, and you don't mind nudging it if the signals get out of whack, that's one thing. With a DVR, you won't be there to adjust.

Others who record stuff using OTA antennas are more than welcome to chime in with experience here.



I think I read somewhere that the old Adelphia system in the county up there was bandwidth-limited compared to the city's TWC system in Erie itself. This may be one reason, as the upgrade would take somewhat longer in the county if that was the case.

"Somewhat longer" is an understatement! They spent the last year rebuilding equipment in the whole county and were done in October. No excuse for not turning it by December.

"Somewhat longer" is an understatement! They spent the last year rebuilding equipment in the whole county and were done in October. No excuse for not turning it by December.

Not A) being a cable company technical employee or B) having any technical knowledge about what it takes to do such upgrades, I can't echo your statement. How would I, or you, or anyone here know all the work that needs to be done between October and now?

Something must have come up. Things Happen. It's just TV here.

I was just pointing out that the rebuild in question wasn't needed in the city, which is why the county took longer. I wasn't saying the TWC folks should be given awards or medals.

Apparently Mr. Fry's address has been changed to steve.fry@twcable.com.

That's correct, sorry, I just did it from memory.

I think sometimes my mind isn't quite as sharp as it was when I was younger. But then again most of the time when I was younger I was drunk.:D:D

Not A) being a cable company technical employee or B) having any technical knowledge about what it takes to do such upgrades, I can't echo your statement. How would I, or you, or anyone here know all the work that needs to be done between October and now?

Something must have come up. Things Happen. It's just TV here.

I was just pointing out that the rebuild in question wasn't needed in the city, which is why the county took longer. I wasn't saying the TWC folks should be given awards or medals.

I don't blame him for being upset. Why should he not get everything everybody else is getting, he's paying for it.

If you pay for something you should get it! And if you don't pay for something, like let's say UHD and you do get it that's even better.

Right nickdawg?:D

the city has pretty much the same lineup as everyone in NE Ohio..minus Locals and we also get Fox Pittsburgh..for all the squeeler/Pirates and Pens fans in NW PA..(but not in HD..which does upset me)....

The county was suppose to switch over to what the city gets back in the middle of December and TW Even put an Ad in our local paper the monday before telling everyone its going to happen on this date..later that week..and nothing has happened..

plus our last Local Station (WJET/ABC) to switch to HD is now over the Air in HD for at least a month and TW hasn't added it..I know a lot of Penn State fans were upset they couldn't get the Rose Bowl in HD ...

Thats the reason I post on this Cleveland Forum because what ever you guys get we should be getting in NW PA from Time Warner..

but it sucks for TW to make promises and not keep them or even update there news page on their web site for upcoming changes..its still says this and thats going to happen in the middle of December 2008
My In-laws are on the city system and I re-scanned their TV when I was visiting over New Years. THe only local HD content I could find was WICU on QAM 99.1 and WSEE on 99.2, as well as WQLN (I forget where that was.) I think WFXP, the FOX affiliate was in there too somewhere, but I can't be sure. However, they do get 3.1, 5.1, 8.1, 25.1 and 25.2 out of Cleveland, which are much easier to find! WICU was carrying Jeopardy in SD (even with an HD bug) but we watched it on 5.1 in HD instead. They used to get 19.1 and 43.1 but those are gone now, as you mentioned some time ago.

My In-laws are on the city system and I re-scanned their TV when I was visiting over New Years. THe only local HD content I could find was WICU on QAM 99.1 and WSEE on 99.2, as well as WQLN (I forget where that was.) I think WFXP, the FOX affiliate was in there too somewhere, but I can't be sure. However, they do get 3.1, 5.1, 8.1, 25.1 and 25.2 out of Cleveland, which are much easier to find! WICU was carrying Jeopardy in SD (even with an HD bug) but we watched it on 5.1 in HD instead. They used to get 19.1 and 43.1 but those are gone now, as you mentioned some time ago.

Just curious. Were any of those non-Cleveland based channels CBS and a My Network channel?

I kind of doubt they got two FOX channels, but I could be wrong. If they do more power to them. And so long as they are getting CBS they should be grateful that they don't get WOIO.

Is there any programming on 43-2? I've heard of a few Raycom stations adding "This TV," two replaced NBC WeatherPlus with it, but one non-NBC station replaced their "The Tube is gone" slide with it. I'm trying to keep my eyes open to make sure I know if it launches somewhere.

- Trip

I don't blame him for being upset. Why should he not get everything everybody else is getting, he's paying for it.

Did TWC raise the rates when it unveiled the new digital lineup down here?

Oh, wait, TWC and all cable companies raise rates every year. :D

Anyway, he's paying for digital cable service, not specifically for whatever channel lineup changes have been made, or whatever new digital channels he doesn't get now. "I'm paying for it" is too simplistic.

But turning it around, he is paying for the service in general, and if he's unhappy, by all means, he needs to revisit how happy he is with TWC.

I was mostly questioning the "there's no reason they couldn't" comment...there could well be a reason, and unless our OP works in the technical end of cable TV, he has no idea if that statement is right or not.

Turning it around again, I'm upset that TWC hasn't yet expanded its HD lineup, presumably because of the slow pace of the SDV rollout. But I'm not "paying for it" in regards to the new HD channels that we don't yet have. I'm "paying for" the channels we get now.

If at some point, I'm not happy about that value proposition, I'll consider moving off of TWC. But no amount of my yelling about it will make it come any faster, just as no amount of complaining by our OP in Erie County, PA will make the new digital lineup come on any faster.

Is there any programming on 43-2? I've heard of a few Raycom stations adding "This TV," two replaced NBC WeatherPlus with it, but one non-NBC station replaced their "The Tube is gone" slide with it. I'm trying to keep my eyes open to make sure I know if it launches somewhere.

I'm not near an OTA tuner right now, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that 43-2 is still running the "Tube is gone" slide.

I would bet so too, but if I were MGM I'd want This TV in markets like Cleveland before markets like Columbus GA and Lubbock TX.

- Trip

A quck check of the OTA ATSC tuner on my HD set - and yes, WUAB-DT 43.2 is still running that (bleeping) slide.

Raycom is a screwed up company, but even more so, here.

I'd personally rather see RTN on 43.2, assuming that operation can get its act together and stay on the air. I believe Raycom does have some RTN affiliates as well.

I only see one RTN affiliate owned by Raycom, assuming my search is accurate, and that's WSFA in Montgomery. And I doubt anyone's in any hurry to affiliate with RTN at this point.

- Trip

I only see one RTN affiliate owned by Raycom, assuming my search is accurate, and that's WSFA in Montgomery. And I doubt anyone's in any hurry to affiliate with RTN at this point.


OK, I saw a mention of Raycom in the list of RTN-carrying groups...didn't know it was a single station.

The RTN programming is much more appealing to me than This TV, which I saw down in Columbus shortly after it launched (WSYX-DT 6.2, I think it was, the Sinclair stations are merging it into their MyNetwork TV subchannels).

This TV looks like a lot of MGM movies no one wants to watch, but I'm not a big "classic movie" fan...and what ones I do like, I want to see on TCM and the like. And I bet it's sharing a lot of content with MGMHD, which just replaced the now-defunct Mojo HD on our TWC system.

This TV screams "MGM found a way to get money out of its shelved content" to me.

RTN has a lot of shows I'd watch ("Quincy", "Rockford Files", etc.). It could just be personal taste here.

But I do agree with your last comment...the horrible financial shape of RTN could well end up causing serious problems for it. And if they don't get that straightened out, they could well lose shows like those I mentioned, anyway.

I agree with you on what This TV screams, but it has the original Outer Limits. That, by itself, is what makes me want it. Now. (I'm a huge fan)

I have RTN here and the only thing I watch on it is Battlestar Galactica. Everything else just doesn't appeal to me very much. It's a shame they pissed off CBS, because some of the CBS shows were worth watching. If they could have gotten the Twilight Zone, I'd have had it made.

RTN isn't in terrible financial shape now that it's separated from Equity, but Equity went out of their way to make sure Luken would have as much trouble as possible. I don't know if you heard, but RTN was off the air for a while yesterday. Here's an article about it: http://www.tvnewsday.com/articles/2009/01/05/daily.5/

WFLA in Tampa was due to launch RTN today. That's been pushed back as far as I can tell. And they were advertising it too.

- Trip

The more Trip in VA writes the more I like that kid.

I just got out of the Toyota Dealership getting my oil changed. In their waiting area they have I'd say a 25-27" Crt television. No flat screen, and it's a Sharp.

I looked at the picture and my first thought was, they got to have a digital converter. Picture looked good. Not HD good but very good.

Then I saw a box and walked up to it. Direct TV.

I'm not surprised. It's just another example of how much better satellite is over cable. We get that washed out look on our locals from analog converted to digital.

I believe nickdawg has said that all the old analog channels are digital now in his area. I wonder if the locals are digital or upgraded analog?

WFLA in Tampa was due to launch RTN today. That's been pushed back as far as I can tell. And they were advertising it too.


WTOV in Steubenville was supposed to launch RTN with the new year. I have no idea if it's back up after this weekend's little tiff.

WTOV in Steubenville was supposed to launch RTN with the new year. I have no idea if it's back up after this weekend's little tiff.

WJAC, WTOV, and WCMH had all launched RTN on January 1. I think WCMH is back on the national feed now (it was a local radar for a while yesterday), but I have no information about the others.

The more Trip in VA writes the more I like that kid.

:D

Whenever I make it up to Cleveland (I have a friend in the area I plan to visit at some point in the distant future), there'll have to be some type of AVS Forum get-together. I'll bring a flame-retardant suit in case I sit next to nickdawg. :D

- Trip

:D

Whenever I make it up to Cleveland (I have a friend in the area I plan to visit at some point in the distant future), there'll have to be some type of AVS Forum get-together. I'll bring a flame-retardant suit in case I sit next to nickdawg. :D

- Trip

Oh God, I can't imagine meeting nickdawg in person. He'd probably try and steal my wallet and report me to TW for getting Universal HD!;)

The more Trip in VA writes the more I like that kid.

I just got out of the Toyota Dealership getting my oil changed. In their waiting area they have I'd say a 25-27" Crt television. No flat screen, and it's a Sharp.

I looked at the picture and my first thought was, they got to have a digital converter. Picture looked good. Not HD good but very good.

Then I saw a box and walked up to it. Direct TV.

I'm not surprised. It's just another example of how much better satellite is over cable. We get that washed out look on our locals from analog converted to digital.

I believe nickdawg has said that all the old analog channels are digital now in his area. I wonder if the locals are digital or upgraded analog?

WBNX and WJW look much better. And this is only because the way they used to be was unwatchable. WBNX has analog interference in the picture and WJW had a green shadow, you could especially see it to the right of the FOX 8 News bug. WOIO is still a nightmare. The place you can see it best is on The Late Late Show w/ Craig Ferguson. Try switching between 4 and 404. On SD, it looks like Craig is standing in front of a black curtain. On 404 HD you can actually see that Craig has a beautiful set in the background.

EDIT: They're not even showing the digital to analog conversion on SD anymore. I just flipped over to write this, and I see the current time and temperature of the 19 Action News bug. It is not there on WOIO HD. Maybe TWC is actually trying to *FIX* this problem? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

WKYC looks the worst of all, since it is an analog direct feed from the station and they're still showing the network analog feed :eek:. Same with WEWS :eek:.

"Somewhat longer" is an understatement! They spent the last year rebuilding equipment in the whole county and were done in October. No excuse for not turning it by December.

Be happy they're rebuilding the system. This means that *most likely* your area will be getting Switched Digital Video and Digital Simulcast on the local and expanded basic tier. These old Adelphia, Comcast, whoever else systems are a mess. They don't have Navigator yet, or SDV. Many of these areas still have analog channels on the basic tier:eek:. Be patient. Whenever TWC announces a date, it's not an exact date. This kind of thing happens anywhere. Let's say they're going to add some HD channels in February. That means they could be here in February, or in March. Or the last week of April for others!:p:p;);):p:p:D

WBNX and WJW look much better. And this is only because the way they used to be was unwatchable. WBNX has analog interference in the picture and WJW had a green shadow, you could especially see it to the right of the FOX 8 News bug. WOIO is still a nightmare. The place you can see it best is on The Late Late Show w/ Craig Ferguson. Try switching between 4 and 404. On SD, it looks like Craig is standing in front of a black curtain. On 404 HD you can actually see that Craig has a beautiful set in the background.

EDIT: They're not even showing the digital to analog conversion on SD anymore. I just flipped over to write this, and I see the current time and temperature of the 19 Action News bug. It is not there on WOIO HD. Maybe TWC is actually trying to *FIX* this problem? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

WKYC looks the worst of all, since it is an analog direct feed from the station and they're still showing the network analog feed :eek:. Same with WEWS :eek:.

What the heck are you talking about? Now I agree about the Action 19 News bug but the fact is it's still digital converted. That means the analog signal is converted to digital, not vice versa. I clearly saw the sound change from PCM 48 to Dolby 2.0 on moving from WBNX to FOX 8 and to WOIO.

Since we are seeing an "upgrade to digital" from analog:rolleyes: the bug on 19 news makes sense. They are broadcasting on two different channels.

It does look horrible. It's always looked that way.

You said previously that you were getting digital feeds on all the old former analog channels. Now you never mentioned, to the best of my knowledge if the local channels (19, 5, 8, and 3) are converted or not.

And WBNX is still analog. They never did convert that one to digital. It's only on digital via cable in HD.

The digital broadcast of all these channels, OTA, is superior to what we get on cable.

What the heck are you talking about? Now I agree about the Action 19 News bug but the fact is it's still digital converted. That means the analog signal is converted to digital, not vice versa. I clearly saw the sound change from PCM 48 to Dolby 2.0 on moving from WBNX to FOX 8 and to WOIO.

Since we are seeing an "upgrade to digital" from analog:rolleyes: the bug on 19 news makes sense. They are broadcasting on two different channels.

It does look horrible. It's always looked that way.

You said previously that you were getting digital feeds on all the old former analog channels. Now you never mentioned, to the best of my knowledge if the local channels (19, 5, 8, and 3) are converted or not.

And WBNX is still analog. They never did convert that one to digital. It's only on digital via cable in HD.

The digital broadcast of all these channels, OTA, is superior to what we get on cable.

WBNX-HD converted to SD
WJW-HD converted to SD
WNEO-HD converted to SD
WVIZ-HD converted to SD
WOIO- ?????
WDLI-SD digital OTA feed
WQHS, WOAC-No frakin clue. Either analog or digital SD. My bet is on analog.
WVPX-Analog, since DT feed isn't on the air yet.

WKYC-direct fiber feed, showing NBC network analog feed
WEWS-direct fiber feed, showing ABC network analog feed

Since you are on one of the systems that still puts channels through in analog, it can be harder to tell. But here, on the TV without a box, it is the same HD converted to SD channel. SO, regardless of whether it is digital (as in 2/0 audio) on the box or not, the channels may still be fed in digital.

WOIO has always looked horrible in "digital" here too. I was hoping that would change, but now I doubt it.

I hope "Basic Service" customers will realize that they can get a better picture for free with a converter box and an antenna. Then maybe more of these people will leave TWC and they can banish analog-only cable to hell(where it belongs). I've seen those crooks hawking their "get the local channels only" package on commercials. :mad::mad::mad:

WBNX-HD converted to SD
WJW-HD converted to SD
WNEO-HD converted to SD
WVIZ-HD converted to SD
WOIO- ?????
WDLI-SD digital OTA feed
WQHS, WOAC-No frakin clue. Either analog or digital SD. My bet is on analog.
WVPX-Analog, since DT feed isn't on the air yet.

WKYC-direct fiber feed, showing NBC network analog feed
WEWS-direct fiber feed, showing ABC network analog feed

Since you are on one of the systems that still puts channels through in analog, it can be harder to tell. But here, on the TV without a box, it is the same HD converted to SD channel. SO, regardless of whether it is digital (as in 2/0 audio) on the box or not, the channels may still be fed in digital.

WOIO has always looked horrible in "digital" here too. I was hoping that would change, but now I doubt it.

I hope "Basic Service" customers will realize that they can get a better picture for free with a converter box and an antenna. Then maybe more of these people will leave TWC and they can banish analog-only cable to hell(where it belongs). I've seen those crooks hawking their "get the local channels only" package on commercials. :mad::mad::mad:

The bug on 19 news has the time and weather = analog OR analog converted to digital. The one that has no time and weather = digital or HD.

It's two seperate channels!!! On the TV in my birds room I don't see the bug with the time and weather. That's OTA 19.1.

The bug on 19 news has the time and weather = analog OR analog converted to digital. The one that has no time and weather = digital or HD.

It's two seperate channels!!! On the TV in my birds room I don't see the bug with the time and weather. That's OTA 19.1.

So on your TV with Time Warner you see a time/temperature bug on WOIO SD? That means you must also be getting the analog OTA version for SDTV. Since the bird's TV has an OTA converter, that's the digital version, 19.1. And I'll bet the TV with the OTA converter looks better than the SD cable.

So on your TV with Time Warner you see a time/temperature bug on WOIO SD? That means you must also be getting the analog OTA version for SDTV. Since the bird's TV has an OTA converter, that's the digital version, 19.1. And I'll bet the TV with the OTA converter looks better than the SD cable.

Of course it does. But what I've been trying to tell you is the reason the picture looks so bad is because it is converted analog to digital. It's got to be the same where you live too. Now that may not apply to the other channels in your area, you say you have all digital and that you don't have analog channels but what I am telling you is your locals are converted analog.

Of course it does. But what I've been trying to tell you is the reason the picture looks so bad is because it is converted analog to digital. It's got to be the same where you live too. Now that may not apply to the other channels in your area, you say you have all digital and that you don't have analog channels but what I am telling you is your locals are converted analog.

WBNX and WJW are not. They appear to be digital(from HD) converted to analog. Even on a TV with no box, WJW and WBNX look pretty damn good. WKYC and WEWS obviously converted analog. Dark backgrounds are not clear black like on WKYC HD, they appear gray and fuzzy. Those stupid black letterbox bars on NBC programming look more like "stupid charcoal letterbox bars".;):D WEWS is also not very pretty looking on SD, obviously converted analog.

But WJW and WBNX are a different story. The picture is clear and colors are bright. I've even been watching WJW in SD, rather than HD lately since FOX puts their bug in the far right corner, it is cut off on the SD channel. I've never seen the picture that good on FOX SD. I'd rather watch it just to lose the bug! :D

WBNX and WJW are not. They appear to be digital(from HD) converted to analog. Even on a TV with no box, WJW and WBNX look pretty damn good. WKYC and WEWS obviously converted analog. Dark backgrounds are not clear black like on WKYC HD, they appear gray and fuzzy. Those stupid black letterbox bars on NBC programming look more like "stupid charcoal letterbox bars".;):D WEWS is also not very pretty looking on SD, obviously converted analog.

But WJW and WBNX are a different story. The picture is clear and colors are bright. I've even been watching WJW in SD, rather than HD lately since FOX puts their bug in the far right corner, it is cut off on the SD channel. I've never seen the picture that good on FOX SD. I'd rather watch it just to lose the bug! :D

No, you are incorrect. I agree that what you see on a television going straight from the wall is better. But it's in analog, not digital! And it's not converted analog.

And if you think anything looks better in SD then in HD, I gotta question your capacity to really tell what looks good. I've seen WJW and there is no way possible it looks better in SD then in HD.

Been to the optometrist lately?:)
Nickdawg just because it's "digital" it doesn't mean better. When we had the 800's (analog) I felt the picture was better then the converted digital.

It only converts the picture to digital when it goes to a box. Why they do this I have no idea, but that is what they do. And WBNX is and always has shown as PCM 48 on sound. That my friend is analog.

So once again what I'm saying to you is this: These "digital" channels are converted from analog. At least the locals are. If you don't have a box you will get the analog channel. If you do you get analog converted.

It may work that you get analog converted with a digital television as well. But the proof is there, you said it yourself. The bug shows a different picture then the HD version. It's different because you are seeing the regular analog channel.

Did you see my comment about how good channel 5 looked on Direct TV? That is pure digital, no conversion. And that's how it looks on 5.1 as well. Converting IMHO is stupid and I don't know why TW does it, but they have never done it to WBNX. That's why you get a better picture.

I looked at the picture and my first thought was, they got to have a digital converter. Picture looked good. Not HD good but very good.

Then I saw a box and walked up to it. Direct TV.



Probably hooked up to TV via co-ax too. Woulda been even better with S-video or composite !!!:)

Glad I caught the conversation on RTN and related sub channels. Sounds interesting. Hopefully once WKYC moves to a non-exclusive receivable part of the electromagnetic spectrum, they'll get something neat on their sub-channel (losing the bandwidth doesn't faze me much with my analog screen :p).
I looked at the picture and my first thought was, they got to have a digital converter. Picture looked good. Not HD good but very good.

Then I saw a box and walked up to it. Direct TV.I have no idea why anyone would have cable, that has the opportunity to have Sat TV. The main difference between Sat TV and a Digital Converter is widescreen and 5.1. On an analog screen, the video looks just about the same... though the digital converter can show a little sharper image. Keeps me from getting an HDTV. The picture is certainly good enough (though admittedly no where as awesome as HD).

Glad I caught the conversation on RTN and related sub channels. Sounds interesting. Hopefully once WKYC moves to a non-exclusive receivable part of the electromagnetic spectrum, they'll get something neat on their sub-channel (losing the bandwidth doesn't faze me much with my analog screen :p).
I have no idea why anyone would have cable, that has the opportunity to have Sat TV. The main difference between Sat TV and a Digital Converter is widescreen and 5.1. On an analog screen, the video looks just about the same... though the digital converter can show a little sharper image. Keeps me from getting an HDTV. The picture is certainly good enough (though admittedly no where as awesome as HD).

Number of reasons for me:
- Wooded lot
- Weather issues with Sat reception (condition seems to vary widely)
- Cable offers better package pricing for digital tv + hs internet + phone
- One provider to call if you have trouble

But I'd agree that Sat could well offer a bit better digital picture overall.

I'm not following your comment about widescreen & 5.1 in comparing Sat to Cable.

Glad I caught the conversation on RTN and related sub channels. Sounds interesting. Hopefully once WKYC moves to a non-exclusive receivable part of the electromagnetic spectrum, they'll get something neat on their sub-channel (losing the bandwidth doesn't faze me much with my analog screen :p).
I have no idea why anyone would have cable, that has the opportunity to have Sat TV. The main difference between Sat TV and a Digital Converter is widescreen and 5.1. On an analog screen, the video looks just about the same... though the digital converter can show a little sharper image. Keeps me from getting an HDTV. The picture is certainly good enough (though admittedly no where as awesome as HD).

No question D*'s picture kicks butt. I would have had D* sometime ago if I had a line of sight and no wife.;)

I live in a heavily wooded area and there simply is no way I can get a signal unless I put it on a tree in my front yard. Wife says no.

I understand now they have some East facing satellites now, and if that is true I might be able to get a signal, but I've invested too much into my 2 TiVo's to break away from cable.

Number of reasons for me:
- Wooded lot
- Weather issues with Sat reception (condition seems to vary widely)
- Cable offers better package pricing for digital tv + hs internet + phone
- One provider to call if you have trouble

But I'd agree that Sat could well offer a bit better digital picture overall.

I'm not following your comment about widescreen & 5.1 in comparing Sat to Cable.

Yeah kind of a mix message there. At one point he say's the main difference is wide screen, then he say's "not as awesome as HD" at the end.

I'll just follow up and say overall it's my experience that D*'s pq beats cable. I can't say about the HD. However I do remember seeing one local channel where D*'s transmission was horrible down in the Cincinnati area.

As I said earlier, digital doesn't always mean better. HD does.

Number of reasons for me:
- Wooded lothookbill's story, which I believe is being adapted in Hollywood for movie, tells us the sorrow of that situation. ;)
- Weather issues with Sat reception (condition seems to vary widely)Weather issues? I'd rather not get off-topic, but I'll just say that weather very rarely ever affects Sat TV reception, and I've been using it for 8 years now.
- One provider to call if you have troubleFunny... I haven't had trouble... probably because of the providers I choose. :D

I'm not following your comment about widescreen & 5.1 in comparing Sat to Cable.hookbill made a comment thinking that their TV was using a digital converter, I was assuming he meant OTA digital converter. My comment was meant to say that the difference between Sat Locals and OTA Digital locals was widescreen and 5.1 audio (when applicable).

Nonetheless, WOIO should not look anywhere as sh*tty as it does on analog and digital cable (excluding WOIO-HD 404).

hookbill's story, which I believe is being adapted in Hollywood for movie, tells us the sorrow of that situation. ;)
Weather issues? I'd rather not get off-topic, but I'll just say that weather very rarely ever affects Sat TV reception, and I've been using it for 8 years now.
Funny... I haven't had trouble... probably because of the providers I choose. :D

hookbill made a comment thinking that their TV was using a digital converter, I was assuming he meant OTA digital converter. My comment was meant to say that the difference between Sat Locals and OTA Digital locals was widescreen and 5.1 audio (when applicable).

Trees are indeed nice, but at a price! :p

Sat Weather: That's why I stated the weather issue varies greatly. I've heard many stories like yours with little if any problems, but I've heard just as many stories of people having regular ongoing issues with rain/snow/thunderstorms creating regular outages.

In four + years of WOW cable packaged use (digital tv + hs internet + two phone lines) I've called them twice. I run my biz out of my home so reliability is crucial. ;) So much so that I put off using any VOIP service until I was convinced that the newer generation VOIP modems could handle FAX transmission and reception reliably.

You mean Sat does not provide the locals in widescreen and the associated 5.1?

Trees are indeed nice, but at a price! :p

Sat Weather: That's why I stated the weather issue varies greatly. I've heard many stories like yours with little if any problems, but I've heard just as many stories of people having regular ongoing issues with rain/snow/thunderstorms creating regular outages.

In four + years of WOW cable packaged use (digital tv + hs internet + two phone lines) I've called them twice. I run my biz out of my home so reliability is crucial. ;) So much so that I put off using any VOIP service until I was convinced that the newer generation VOIP modems could handle FAX transmission and reception reliably.

You mean Sat does not provide the locals in widescreen and the associated 5.1?

I've said this before, but I lived in Northern Kentucky and it seems to me they have many, many more thunderstorms then we have. My experience with that and D* was that yes, from time to time there would be an outage but not one lasted more then 15 minutes and the amount of times it happened was not as high as everyone thinks.

Satellite does provide widescreen and Dolby 5.1.

hookbill made a comment thinking that their TV was using a digital converter, I was assuming he meant OTA digital converter. My comment was meant to say that the difference between Sat Locals and OTA Digital locals was widescreen and 5.1 audio (when applicable).



I have one television with the converter and that's in the birds room. I hit a 86 signal on WJW today, best I ever got.;)

The other mention of conversion had to do with analog to digital with TWC. And since Toby10 has WOW, I have no idea what his picture looks like. He may be getting all digital.

And to wrap up everything else, dleising, you are absolutely right. The picture is unacceptable for WOIO SD. I watch everything on the HD channel.

I've said this before, but I lived in Northern Kentucky and it seems to me they have many, many more thunderstorms then we have. My experience with that and D* was that yes, from time to time there would be an outage but not one lasted more then 15 minutes and the amount of times it happened was not as high as everyone thinks.

Satellite does provide widescreen and Dolby 5.1.............

The other mention of conversion had to do with analog to digital with TWC. And since Toby10 has WOW, I have no idea what his picture looks like. He may be getting all digital.............

Yeah, YMMV greatly with weather related Sat reception. ;)

I'm guessing he isn't getting the locals in wide + 5.1 via Sat.

I dunno about WOW being all digital now. I know they had some intermittent issues in the lower tier analogs a few weeks back (as ajstan & myself mentioned here). WOW did send out a notice that there may be intermittent issues in this tier while they performed some "system upgrade". :confused:

Just curious. Were any of those non-Cleveland based channels CBS and a My Network channel?

I kind of doubt they got two FOX channels, but I could be wrong. If they do more power to them. And so long as they are getting CBS they should be grateful that they don't get WOIO.
Erie's WSEE is CBS. I don't remember seeing a "My Network Channel". I'm certain there's nothing broadcasting in Erie, unless it is a digital sub-channel.

Yeah, YMMV greatly with weather related Sat reception. ;)I believe outages because of "weather" is much more dependent on how reliable of a dish install was done rather than the dish / technology itself. The one funny thing about dish outages in bad weather (it is my 5 minute severe weather warning system ;)) is that the signal is lost a little before the storm comes and little before the storm is gone. It could be hailing outside, but my signal has come back when the line of sight improves.

I'm guessing he isn't getting the locals in wide + 5.1 via Sat.Naw... just the regular locals on Dish Network.

I believe outages because of "weather" is much more dependent on how reliable of a dish install was done rather than the dish / technology itself. The one funny thing about dish outages in bad weather (it is my 5 minute severe weather warning system ;)) is that the signal is lost a little before the storm comes and little before the storm is gone. It could be hailing outside, but my signal has come back when the line of sight improves.

Naw... just the regular locals on Dish Network.

Yes, I agree. It's weird how it will go out just before it hits and come back on while it's hitting. However I never experienced it going out after the storm.

I believe outages because of "weather" is much more dependent on how reliable of a dish install was done rather than the dish / technology itself. The one funny thing about dish outages in bad weather (it is my 5 minute severe weather warning system ;)) is that the signal is lost a little before the storm comes and little before the storm is gone. It could be hailing outside, but my signal has come back when the line of sight improves.

Naw... just the regular locals on Dish Network.

I'm sure a proper installation is a big factor. Having no personal experience with Sat, I can only relay what others have told me.

You can blame the mechanic or a bad car part, but it matters little if my car won't run. ;)

I'm sure a proper installation is a big factor. Having no personal experience with Sat, I can only relay what others have told me.

You can blame the mechanic or a bad car part, but it matters little if my car won't run. ;)

Toby10 - You're kind of saying two things here. On a response to my post you say YMMV, which I can agree with, yet here you're saying "this is what I've heard."

I can't say for certain, but I'm willing to bet most of what you "heard" is on the internet. And the problem with the internet is 90% of the time you hear people complain. Very rarely do you hear someone say, "hey this works great." It's human nature.

Two other good examples of this are TiVo and Vonage. If you go to the TiVo Forum, specially the S3 thread you might think that TiVo is a complete piece of garbage by all the negative comments. Fact is that the majority of people rarely have any problems with their TiVo. People have their expectations set to high. They want the darn thing to serve them breakfast in bed!;)

Same thing with Vonage. Had I found the Vonage Forum before purchasing I'd never have bought it. I'd still be paying 70.00 a month for phone service.

In all the time I had D* and D-TiVo I never had to have a service call. I can't say the same about cable.

Toby10 - You're kind of saying two things here. On a response to my post you say YMMV, which I can agree with, yet here you're saying "this is what I've heard."

I can't say for certain, but I'm willing to bet most of what you "heard" is on the internet. And the problem with the internet is 90% of the time you hear people complain. Very rarely do you hear someone say, "hey this works great." It's human nature......

No, this is from actually speaking to people about AV, TV's, service providers, etc... over the years.

No, this is from actually speaking to people about AV, TV's, service providers, etc... over the years.Well, what they said can be true for their cases, but including back when I was a kid at home, I've got about 20 years of dish experience, going back to C-band. So from Primestar, Directv to Dish Network being installed for my family or myself at three different cities, I have never had a problem with reception because of weather, except in the case of a torrential downpours or if there is enough wet snow on the dish, which is fix by brushing the snow off the dish.

If people are having an issue it is most probably due to a poor installation job, not the equipment. I only take issue with this because of cable propaganda in previous commercials talking about "crummy reception" on the Sat dish.

Well, what they said can be true for their cases, but including back when I was a kid at home, I've got about 20 years of dish experience, going back to C-band. So from Primestar, Directv to Dish Network being installed for my family or myself at three different cities, I have never had a problem with reception because of weather, except in the case of a torrential downpours or if there is enough wet snow on the dish, which is fix by brushing the snow off the dish.

If people are having an issue it is most probably due to a poor installation job, not the equipment. I only take issue with this because of cable propaganda in previous commercials talking about "crummy reception" on the Sat dish.

yespage, have you tried spraying pam on your dish? That's right, the no stick spray.

It may keep you from climbing on your roof. I don't know if it really works.

Well, what they said can be true for their cases, but including back when I was a kid at home, I've got about 20 years of dish experience, going back to C-band. So from Primestar, Directv to Dish Network being installed for my family or myself at three different cities, I have never had a problem with reception because of weather, except in the case of a torrential downpours or if there is enough wet snow on the dish, which is fix by brushing the snow off the dish.

If people are having an issue it is most probably due to a poor installation job, not the equipment. I only take issue with this because of cable propaganda in previous commercials talking about "crummy reception" on the Sat dish.

And....of course.....Sat advertising would never stoop to such measures. ;)

Yeah, I do remember those big old 9 foot sat dishes. Our neighbor had one and was out there brooming it off in the winter. It didn't help that we were in the snow belt.

yespage, have you tried spraying pam on your dish? That's right, the no stick spray.

It may keep you from climbing on your roof. I don't know if it really works.I'd be hesitant to spray anything on the dish. In the rare instances when I've needed to clear the dish off, I can reach the dish via a small step ladder and a broom. *yespage waits for T-Fal or Caphalon to come out with a non-stick Sat dish* ;)

And....of course.....Sat advertising would never stoop to such measures. ;)Well, seeing that Sat TV is superior in almost any single way to Cable... they don't really need to. Dish and Directv will take jabs at each other regarding who has the most channels in "HD", but that is about it. I just wanted to clear up any misconception that Satellite dishes had reception issues when installed properly.

Yeah, I do remember those big old 9 foot sat dishes. Our neighbor had one and was out there brooming it off in the winter. It didn't help that we were in the snow belt.Oh man, I remember being able to watch the wild feeds of so many things like the Indy 500, hockey, baseball, football games (sometimes without even needing to listen to the announcers) or watching shows (like Star Trek TNG) well before they aired on live television. Those were the days!

Well, seeing that Sat TV is superior in almost any single way to Cable... they don't really need to. Dish and Directv will take jabs at each other regarding who has the most channels in "HD", but that is about it. I just wanted to clear up any misconception that Satellite dishes had reception issues when installed properly.

Both Direct TV and Dish advertise saying to dump the cable company. They focus on the high cost and show lower cost comparisons.

However as pointed out previously by Toby10 they can't offer phone service, I think D* offers some type of internet but I don't know much about it.


Oh man, I remember being able to watch the wild feeds of so many things like the Indy 500, hockey, baseball, football games (sometimes without even needing to listen to the announcers) or watching shows (like Star Trek TNG) well before they aired on live television. Those were the days!

What I remember about that was being able to hear the announcers during commercials. That was fun, they'd say all kinds of stuff to each other or the guys in the both.

Erie's WSEE is CBS. I don't remember seeing a "My Network Channel". I'm certain there's nothing broadcasting in Erie, unless it is a digital sub-channel.

I live in Erie 35.1 is WSEE(CBS Programming)
35.2 is WBEP(CW+ Programming
35.3 is WICU(NBC Programming)

What are we discussing today? Satellite. Counselor, put me on the stand. I'm ready to testify AGAINST satellite! :D What cable says about satellite going out is 99.9% true. What the satellite companies say about it almost never going out, is 98% FALSE. It's not installation. A few years back, I had a satellite professionally installed, but I still had reception problems. Rain, thick clouds, snow. Especially snow. When snow builds up on that damn thing, the TV is pixelated. You know what was MORE reliable, the old antenna on my roof. :mad: I couldn't wait for that damn contract to be over with D*. That itself should have been the biggest indicator that they suck, they force you in for a year! After that, I was so excited when the Time Warner installer came. About a week later, I was watching TV on a Saturday afternoon. It gets cloudy and starts raining. HUGE thunderstorm. But my TV was still on. I could've cried then, it was so great!! :D:D:D:D:D

What are we discussing today? Satellite. Counselor, put me on the stand. I'm ready to testify AGAINST satellite! :D What cable says about satellite going out is 99.9% true. What the satellite companies say about it almost never going out, is 98% FALSE. It's not installation. A few years back, I had a satellite professionally installed, but I still had reception problems. Rain, thick clouds, snow. Especially snow. When snow builds up on that damn thing, the TV is pixelated. You know what was MORE reliable, the old antenna on my roof. :mad: I couldn't wait for that damn contract to be over with D*. That itself should have been the biggest indicator that they suck, they force you in for a year! After that, I was so excited when the Time Warner installer came. About a week later, I was watching TV on a Saturday afternoon. It gets cloudy and starts raining. HUGE thunderstorm. But my TV was still on. I could've cried then, it was so great!! :D:D:D:D:D

The quoted text above is the experience of nickdawg. Please take this into consideration if you're thinking about going with satellite. Everything he said is contrary to what I say about it but what else is new?

That's life in the Bizarro world. What can I say?:p:p:p

What are we discussing today? Satellite. Counselor, put me on the stand. I'm ready to testify AGAINST satellite! :D What cable says about satellite going out is 99.9% true. What the satellite companies say about it almost never going out, is 98% FALSE. It's not installation. A few years back, I had a satellite professionally installed, but I still had reception problems. Rain, thick clouds, snow. Especially snow. When snow builds up on that damn thing, the TV is pixelated. You know what was MORE reliable, the old antenna on my roof. :mad: I couldn't wait for that damn contract to be over with D*. That itself should have been the biggest indicator that they suck, they force you in for a year! After that, I was so excited when the Time Warner installer came. About a week later, I was watching TV on a Saturday afternoon. It gets cloudy and starts raining. HUGE thunderstorm. But my TV was still on. I could've cried then, it was so great!! :D:D:D:D:D

If "thick clouds" made your satellite go out, I would say it wasn't installed properly. I'd say I have 15 minutes of downtime a year with D* and it's usually when a tornado-inducing green-sky squall line is moving through. In which case I'm usually more fascinated by the weather or thinking about running to the basement, not watching Oprah. :D

Snow usually slides right off my dish, never had a problem with that. They make heaters for the dishes if it's a chronic problem.

... and of course the year contract isn't because "they suck", it's to offset the cost of installation and hardware.

The quoted text above is the experience of nickdawg. Please take this into consideration if you're thinking about going with satellite. Everything he said is contrary to what I say about it but what else is new?

That's life in the Bizarro world. What can I say?:p:p:p

Where did you have satellite? The Bizarro world? Yes, take my warning into consideration.

Where did you have satellite? The Bizarro world? Yes, take my warning into consideration.

Unlike you nickdawg I read the post prior to commenting. Now if you go back a bit, not even that much, you will see me discussing about my experience with satellite.:rolleyes:

I've had DirecTV for a little over a year and have only had any kind of signal loss on two occasions. Both times it was due to extremely heavy rain that sounded like it was about ready to come through my roof. Both times the only channels that went out were the new HD channels - and only for the couple minutes that it took for the heavy stuff to pass. I was able to flip over to the non-HD version of the channel and continue watching. I think the larger oval dish that they install now(required for the new HD channels) is a great improvement over the older 18" pizza pan dishes. I had way more issues when I had cable. Many were intermittent problems and very frustrating to solve because they never seemed to occur when the service guy shows up three or four days after you called in the problem. I don't miss cable one bit. Absolutely no regrets on switching to DirecTV. Just my two cents.

Unlike you nickdawg I read the post prior to commenting. Now if you go back a bit, not even that much, you will see me discussing about my experience with satellite.:rolleyes:

Well, you have to admit, northern Kentucky is a *bit* bizarre. :D

Well, you have to admit, northern Kentucky is a *bit* bizarre. :D

Just because they have some strange names, like Big Bone Park, and Big Lick Park, Turkeyfoot Blvd. doesn't make it strange!:D

It's actually just an extension of Cincinnati, where they love that God awful Cincinnati style chili. And if someone doesn't understand what you say they say, "Please?" First time I heard it I didn't know what the heck they were talking about. When I worked at Citi I use to tell them that people in other parts of the country may not know what that means in the context they use it.

Just because they have some strange names, like Big Bone Park, and Big Lick Park, Turkeyfoot Blvd. doesn't make it strange!:D



Combine those, Hookbill, & you've got it right: BIG BONE LICK State Park!!(where the buffalo roam by the way):D

Well, there is Turkeyfoot Road in Akron, Licking county in central Ohio, so Ohio isn't immune to weird names. Of course, Kentucky has AiG's Creationist Museum, which counts as at least 1000 negative points. ;)
What are we discussing today? Satellite. Counselor, put me on the stand. I'm ready to testify AGAINST satellite! :D What cable says about satellite going out is 99.9% true. What the satellite companies say about it almost never going out, is 98% FALSE. It's not installation. A few years back, I had a satellite professionally installed, but I still had reception problems.Unless you can tell us how good your reception was (percentage) during sunny days verses the reception percentage was on rainy days, you have little to defend that the dish was installed properly. Now, if you had near perfect reception on sunny days and terrible reception on cloudy days, then you'd have an argument, but you have no data to support your conclusion that it was the dish and not the installation.

A few years back, I had a satellite professionally installed, but I still had reception problems. :D:D:D:D:D

Chances are the installer was wise to your act Nickdawg and set your dish off-kilter on purpose.
I've had D* service for nearly 10 years beginning with the 18" round dish and now with the oversize AT-9 (D*'s first dish to include digital locals). There ARE outages. Total time for the year maybe 5 minutes tops. It happens when the tallest thunderheads are moving across the line of sight thousands of feet in the air miles & miles away (this is the reason why the local weather is not always at it's worst when the outage takes place).
I do a bit of A/V home theater installation on the side and have seen the grainy, greyed out sub-standard SD TW provided picture that many people are viewing. It's amazing what people will accept as their reality when it's their only choice due to line-of-sight issues or an insistence on having TW's internet service.

Chances are the installer was wise to your act Nickdawg and set your dish off-kilter on purpose.
I

:D:D:D:D:D:D

It's all a plot against you nickdawg. The satellites, TWC, SDV, this forum. All designed to drive you mad.:p:p:p:p

Combine those, Hookbill, & you've got it right: BIG BONE LICK State Park!!(where the buffalo roam by the way):D

That's right. The other one is BIG BEAVER LICK.:):)

With respect to these RTN or other sub-channels, is their any word on the NE Ohio area (or more important to me, the Cleveland stations) gaining some of these? Or are the major station entities spinning a wheel to randomly choose markets?

As a side note, I saw a report yesterday about the Federal digital converter coupon program running out of money and being backlogged. Whoops... who would of thought that the Federal Government would make a mistake like that. :D

With respect to these RTN or other sub-channels, is their any word on the NE Ohio area (or more important to me, the Cleveland stations) gaining some of these? Or are the major station entities spinning a wheel to randomly choose markets?

As a side note, I saw a report yesterday about the Federal digital converter coupon program running out of money and being backlogged. Whoops... who would of thought that the Federal Government would make a mistake like that. :D

;)

As expected, the entire DTV Coupon program was a joke from day one! My favorite part is when people receive EXPIRED coupons and then cannot get them replaced cuz the system shows "that address has received their two coupons". :p

I can understand an expiration date, but how about making all coupons expire end of Feb 09? Or even March 09 (for the *real* procrastinators)???

;)

As expected, the entire DTV Coupon program was a joke from day one! My favorite part is when people receive EXPIRED coupons and then cannot get them replaced cuz the system shows "that address has received their two coupons". :p

I can understand an expiration date, but how about making all coupons expire end of Feb 09? Or even March 09 (for the *real* procrastinators)???

I've been following that pretty closely and I think you're mistaking. People are allowing their coupons to expire, they are not receiving coupons that expired. I don't know where you got that, but I'll bet you'll provide me a link.:)

I see your point. Yes, the expiration date should have been the day after television goes digital. And if we look at the way government has been handled in general, oh let's say the last 8 years, you kind of understand why. But look at people in general. There are so many procrastinators! I got my coupon and was out the door the next day. I say if their coupon expired, too bad so sad. Walmarts got them for a flat 40 bucks plus tax. Pay and quit the whining.

I know of at least two people whose coupons never arrived. One was supposed to give his to me.

- Trip

I know of at least two people whose coupons never arrived. One was supposed to give his to me.

- Trip

Never arriving and arriving expired are two different things. They say if you haven't heard anything then you need to request again. Stuff happens.;) I kind of remember being able to keep some kind of track on the web about it. I knew at least my coupon had been processed.

I live in Erie 35.1 is WSEE(CBS Programming)
35.2 is WBEP(CW+ Programming
35.3 is WICU(NBC Programming)
Why doesn't WICU have it's own seperate channel?

I heard that one of the Erie stations had no intent on carrying any HD programming. Is that true, and if so which station? (well I can bet it's WICU).

Unless you can tell us how good your reception was (percentage) during sunny days verses the reception percentage was on rainy days, you have little to defend that the dish was installed properly. Now, if you had near perfect reception on sunny days and terrible reception on cloudy days, then you'd have an argument, but you have no data to support your conclusion that it was the dish and not the installation.

I can't quote an exact percentage, but it was good enough that those problems were not there on sunny days. But whenever the storms rolled in or the snow piled up, the trouble started. And the worst part was, it was guaranteed that it would start acting up whenever the weather man would come on TV. Tornado warnings, severe storms-guess who doesn't get to hear about that? My mom also had a satellite at her house installed around the same time, by a different person(I asked). But she still had almost the same problems with the weather. I also have another relative who also claims it almost never goes out, but it still does. I've even seen it.

But, my cable has worked 99% of the time during severe weather. Other than circumstances beyond my control(power outages, lines down).

I'd be hesitant to spray anything on the dish. In the rare instances when I've needed to clear the dish off, I can reach the dish via a small step ladder and a broom. *yespage waits for T-Fal or Caphalon to come out with a non-stick Sat dish* ;)

Well, seeing that Sat TV is superior in almost any single way to Cable... they don't really need to. Dish and Directv will take jabs at each other regarding who has the most channels in "HD", but that is about it. I just wanted to clear up any misconception that Satellite dishes had reception issues when installed properly.

Oh man, I remember being able to watch the wild feeds of so many things like the Indy 500, hockey, baseball, football games (sometimes without even needing to listen to the announcers) or watching shows (like Star Trek TNG) well before they aired on live television. Those were the days!

I tried the PAM thing back in '98 when I installed my 1st Dish Network system. Let's just say PAM is for Kitchen use only. I almost killed myself by falling off the garage roof the first time the snow stuck to the dish. (no I did not fall but I did have one passerby stop to ask if I needed help) What was I thinking?

When I moved I put my dishes on fence posts. Now I can reach them to brush off the snow or tweak the aiming if a big wind knocks them out of line.

Why doesn't WICU have it's own seperate channel?

I heard that one of the Erie stations had no intent on carrying any HD programming. Is that true, and if so which station? (well I can bet it's WICU).

WICU has its own channel, DT-52. Lilly didn't build it out since they'd be returning to 12 anyway.

And yes, it's WICU. Every other station in Erie has started HD.

- Trip

I can't quote an exact percentage, but it was good enough that those problems were not there on sunny days. But whenever the storms rolled in or the snow piled up, the trouble started. And the worst part was, it was guaranteed that it would start acting up whenever the weather man would come on TV. Tornado warnings, severe storms-guess who doesn't get to hear about that? My mom also had a satellite at her house installed around the same time, by a different person(I asked). But she still had almost the same problems with the weather. I also have another relative who also claims it almost never goes out, but it still does. I've even seen it.

But, my cable has worked 99% of the time during severe weather. Other than circumstances beyond my control(power outages, lines down).

The cool thing about having dual dishes is that if one gets blocked by the weather, the other one usually still has signal. In my case the HD locals (and all the other HD channels) come from the SE (61.5w) and rarely gets rainfade. I may lose some "core" SD channels from time to time (from the SW 110/119) but usually for only a few minutes).

I tried the PAM thing back in '98 when I installed my 1st Dish Network system. Let's just say PAM is for Kitchen use only. I almost killed myself by falling off the garage roof the first time the snow stuck to the dish. (no I did not fall but I did have one passerby stop to ask if I needed help) What was I thinking?

When I moved I put my dishes on fence posts. Now I can reach them to brush off the snow or tweak the aiming if a big wind knocks them out of line.

Hey, I never said I knew it would work. I kind of felt like it may have been an old wives tale.:D

I'd never get on top of my roof here, nor at my house in KY. It's a long ways down you see, and I already have one fractured vertebrae.;)

;)

As expected, the entire DTV Coupon program was a joke from day one! My favorite part is when people receive EXPIRED coupons and then cannot get them replaced cuz the system shows "that address has received their two coupons". :p

I can understand an expiration date, but how about making all coupons expire end of Feb 09? Or even March 09 (for the *real* procrastinators)???

I agree. That "90 day expiration date" is a load of crap. It's almost like the government is trying to "punish" antenna viewers with nonsense:(expiration dates BEFORE 2/17, "running out of money", waiting lists). It's absurd that there is so much drama with this program. We can send billions a month overseas to fund an unnecessary war, but we have to make a wait list for people to get a $40 coupon? Get your priorities straight!!! :eek::eek:

http://www.wkyc.com/weblog/directors_cut/2009/01/news-feds-start-wait-list-for-dtv.html


And part of the problem is, thanks to the media campaign stressing the February 17, 2009 date, people think they will need the boxes on that date. I'm sure some probably don't know it will work now.

But then that opens up a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. If you set the box up now, you'll get whatever channels you can get on their OLD channels. Some of them, like WKYC, may be changing. So they better get the message out successfully to re-scan once the channel changes. And if you wait until February to set up the box, there could be antenna problems. Then you'll need to buy a new antenna and find an installer in NE Ohio February:eek:, plus be without certain channels.

They really could not have scheduled this for June or July 17, 2009? :rolleyes:

I've been following that pretty closely and I think you're mistaking. People are allowing their coupons to expire, they are not receiving coupons that expired. I don't know where you got that, but I'll bet you'll provide me a link.:)

I see your point. Yes, the expiration date should have been the day after television goes digital. And if we look at the way government has been handled in general, oh let's say the last 8 years, you kind of understand why. But look at people in general. There are so many procrastinators! I got my coupon and was out the door the next day. I say if their coupon expired, too bad so sad. Walmarts got them for a flat 40 bucks plus tax. Pay and quit the whining.

One of many consumer sites and forums listing the numerous issues with the program:
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/electronics/2008/09/dtv-coupons-con.html

I only knew of the problem when both of my coupons were used for a friend and a relative that this happened to. ;)

EDIT: To be fair, I did indeed receive my coupons in a timely fashion and they were not expired.

I agree. That "90 day expiration date" is a load of crap. It's almost like the government is trying to "punish" antenna viewers with nonsense:(expiration dates BEFORE 2/17, "running out of money", waiting lists). It's absurd that there is so much drama with this program. We can send billions a month overseas to fund an unnecessary war, but we have to make a wait list for people to get a $40 coupon? Get your priorities straight!!! :eek::eek:

http://www.wkyc.com/weblog/directors_cut/2009/01/news-feds-start-wait-list-for-dtv.html


And part of the problem is, thanks to the media campaign stressing the February 17, 2009 date, people think they will need the boxes on that date. I'm sure some probably don't know it will work now.

But then that opens up a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. If you set the box up now, you'll get whatever channels you can get on their OLD channels. Some of them, like WKYC, may be changing. So they better get the message out successfully to re-scan once the channel changes. And if you wait until February to set up the box, there could be antenna problems. Then you'll need to buy a new antenna and find an installer in NE Ohio February:eek:, plus be without certain channels.

They really could not have scheduled this for June or July 17, 2009? :rolleyes:

Exactly! ;):D;)

BTW: What was the result of the "test" shutoff? Not the warning message they did nationally back in Dec. There was some market in NC or SC that was turning off their analog OTA's last fall as a "test" to see what kind of troubles may pop up (broadcasters and consumers) with the DTV conversion. Anyone know?

Wilmington was a disaster though they won't call it one. Even with the fire department out helping hook up boxes, there were still 2,000 calls (14,000 OTA households). Many were because a station had moved their digital transmitter to a location different from the analog, so people lost coverage (but that would have happened anyway, because the analog was weak in Wilmington, thus the move).

That's why the nightlight bill came about, because the stations did that in Wilmington and it did help as a lot of people saw it and called the number.

- Trip

Wilmington was a disaster though they won't call it one. Even with the fire department out helping hook up boxes, there were still 2,000 calls (14,000 OTA households). Many were because a station had moved their digital transmitter to a location different from the analog, so people lost coverage (but that would have happened anyway, because the analog was weak in Wilmington, thus the move).

That's why the nightlight bill came about, because the stations did that in Wilmington and it did help as a lot of people saw it and called the number.

- Trip

Thanks Trip. :)

WICU has its own channel, DT-52. Lilly didn't build it out since they'd be returning to 12 anyway.

And yes, it's WICU. Every other station in Erie has started HD.

- Trip

I get a 15-30% signal on the Mansfield 68 (12-1) signal but usually not enough to lock. (Yes, even up here below the ridge in Lake County, what is wrong with the Akron transmitters that are miles closer?)

Erie, which is miles closer than Mansfield, I was thiking that WICU analog was a partial reason I can't lock 68 from Mansfield, I was looking forward to WICU shutting off the analog transmitter on 12 & seeing what happens.

They are returning to 12 then?... Nice! (???).

They really could not have scheduled this for June or July 17, 2009? :rolleyes:

WHY? What difference does it make?

Let me remind you first that not everybody has weather like we do. So if that's your theory I disagree.

And if they did schedule it for July procrastination would still take place. Heck it already has taken place, this was suppose to been done earlier but the stations bought time.

Why couldn't people get their coupons during the summer last year? You'd have to live in a cave not to know about this. I got my coupon last year and used it right away. By nature, I don't wait until the last minute.

In addition they just said on the news tonight that those who don't get a good signal on their favorite stations will by the date of change. As has been pointed out to me earlier, they are looking at increasing their signals.

If you were stupid enough to wait until the last minute to get your card or box, or if it wasn't delivered and you didn't follow up on it that is YOUR fault.

I'd be hesitant to spray anything on the dish. In the rare instances when I've needed to clear the dish off, I can reach the dish via a small step ladder and a broom. *yespage waits for T-Fal or Caphalon to come out with a non-stick Sat dish* ;)


Wouldn't our corrosive salt air eat this finish off eventually?

WHY? What difference does it make?

Let me remind you first that not everybody has weather like we do. So if that's your theory I disagree.

And if they did schedule it for July procrastination would still take place. Heck it already has taken place, this was suppose to been done earlier but the stations bought time.

Why couldn't people get their coupons during the summer last year? You'd have to live in a cave not to know about this. I got my coupon last year and used it right away. By nature, I don't wait until the last minute.

In addition they just said on the news tonight that those who don't get a good signal on their favorite stations will by the date of change. As has been pointed out to me earlier, they are looking at increasing their signals.

If you were stupid enough to wait until the last minute to get your card or box, or if it wasn't delivered and you didn't follow up on it that is YOUR fault.


Yes those poor people in the south have to endure a few rainstorms & days below 60 degrees too. ;)

Unfortunately since nothing set in stone, & will things unforseen will happen in February, (ie 2 to 17) I know I will have to wait for better weather just to tweak my attic antenna.

Now why did WKYC wait till the last minute to build their new tower then?? :D

Exactly! ;):D;)

BTW: What was the result of the "test" shutoff? Not the warning message they did nationally back in Dec. There was some market in NC or SC that was turning off their analog OTA's last fall as a "test" to see what kind of troubles may pop up (broadcasters and consumers) with the DTV conversion. Anyone know?

I understood the Wilmington experiment was final & permanent, & the analog transmitters would not go back on.

YNow why did WKYC wait till the last minute to build their new tower then?? :D

It's one of the many benefits of having to wait for Canadian coordination. No point in building out a station if you don't know whether the Canadians will let you use that channel.

And yes, WICU-DT will operate on channel 12 after the transition.

- Trip

WHY? What difference does it make?

Let me remind you first that not everybody has weather like we do. So if that's your theory I disagree.

And if they did schedule it for July procrastination would still take place. Heck it already has taken place, this was suppose to been done earlier but the stations bought time.

Why couldn't people get their coupons during the summer last year? You'd have to live in a cave not to know about this. I got my coupon last year and used it right away. By nature, I don't wait until the last minute.

In addition they just said on the news tonight that those who don't get a good signal on their favorite stations will by the date of change. As has been pointed out to me earlier, they are looking at increasing their signals.

If you were stupid enough to wait until the last minute to get your card or box, or if it wasn't delivered and you didn't follow up on it that is YOUR fault.

The "difference" that would be made is this big event is not happening in the dead of winter. I think you're forgetting that more states than just Ohio up North have winter weather. And as far as signals, I'm sure many are holding out hope they will get stronger. But what if it is the antenna's fault? Do you want to climb on the roof and replace an antenna? How many antenna installers will you find working in the February-March "dead of winter" here? Procrastination will take place regardless of the date, that's not the reason. The reason IS the weather.

I understood the Wilmington experiment was final & permanent, & the analog transmitters would not go back on.

Correct. It was the results of this I was inquiring about. ;)

...........If you were stupid enough to wait until the last minute to get your card or box, or if it wasn't delivered and you didn't follow up on it that is YOUR fault.

Agreed on the first part. I'll bet there will be some fun news events just prior too and just after Feb 17th. Maybe some more good Wal Mart brawls caught on tape?? :D

The latter of your statement is what much of the coupon problem stems from. i.e. a typical govt. program. Poorly thought out, poorly implemented, poorly funded, poorly handled.

People have tried to follow up when:
- no coupons received
- received coupons are expired by the time they actually do receive them
- models not available in stores with valid coupons (soon to expire)

........and they are told "sorry, we show your address as having already applied for a coupon, so our system will not allow us to send them again".

I have no need for such converters, but like you I would have applied for the coupons last summer if I did need them. I only applied for them in early fall because a friend received an expired coupon and was turned away when she asked for a replacement. Luckily I had the extra coupon when a family member never received theirs.

Agreed on the first part. I'll bet there will be some fun news events just prior too and just after Feb 17th. Maybe some more good Wal Mart brawls caught on tape?? :D

The latter of your statement is what much of the coupon problem stems from. i.e. a typical govt. program. Poorly thought out, poorly implemented, poorly funded, poorly handled.

People have tried to follow up when:
- no coupons received
- received coupons are expired by the time they actually do receive them
- models not available in stores with valid coupons (soon to expire)

........and they are told "sorry, we show your address as having already applied for a coupon, so our system will not allow us to send them again".

I have no need for such converters, but like you I would have applied for the coupons last summer if I did need them. I only applied for them in early fall because a friend received an expired coupon and was turned away when she asked for a replacement. Luckily I had the extra coupon when a family member never received theirs.

The more I think about it I wonder if indeed this "coupon" thing was poorly thought out. I hate to be a cynic but it could be that this program was designed exactly this way in an effort to make it appear that government was "assisting" people, when in fact they probably knew darn good and well that people would either sit on these coupons and have them expire, or not know enough not to wait until the last minute.

I'm going to just briefly go into politics here and I beg everyone's pardon, and I'm going to be fair. I mentioned the last 8 years but calculated decisions that effect the middle class and poor, in this case specially the poor, go back further then that. Clinton did it too when he gave his blessings to NAFTA. Look where that has got us.

Now to some this thinking may appear shall we say, bazaar:eek: but it wouldn't surprise me.

Nah, my mind is going to far with this. Yeah, poorly thought out.:rolleyes: That's what it is.;)

[QUOTE=hookbill;15491540]The more I think about it I wonder if indeed this "coupon" thing was poorly thought out. I hate to be a cynic but it could be that this program was designed exactly this way in an effort to make it appear that government was "assisting" people, when in fact they probably knew darn good and well that people would either sit on these coupons and have them expire, or not know enough not to wait until the last minute......[QUOTE]

Could be. *shrug* Though that implies that the collective IQ of our wonderful federal bureaucrats are bright enuff to think up such a scheme.

Always remember, in DC we have 535 representatives being "persuaded" *- cough -* by over 25,000 registered lobbyists. God knows how many more are NOT registered. The peoples interests are seldom at the forefront of our representatives actions (or inaction). ;)

[QUOTE=hookbill;15491540]The more I think about it I wonder if indeed this "coupon" thing was poorly thought out. I hate to be a cynic but it could be that this program was designed exactly this way in an effort to make it appear that government was "assisting" people, when in fact they probably knew darn good and well that people would either sit on these coupons and have them expire, or not know enough not to wait until the last minute......[QUOTE]

Could be. *shrug* Though that implies that the collective IQ of our wonderful federal bureaucrats are bright enuff to think up such a scheme.

Always remember, in DC we have 535 representatives being "persuaded" *- cough -* by over 25,000 registered lobbyists. God knows how many more are NOT registered. The peoples interests are seldom at the forefront of our representatives actions (or inaction). ;)

All federal bureaucrats? I kind of doubt it, probably just the one's in the FCC. You know, the guys who made a big deal of "defective costumes.":D I doubt if GW even got to look at this before it went into effect. Probably somebody on his staff gave the OK.

[QUOTE=toby10;15493916][QUOTE=hookbill;15491540]The more I think about it I wonder if indeed this "coupon" thing was poorly thought out. I hate to be a cynic but it could be that this program was designed exactly this way in an effort to make it appear that government was "assisting" people, when in fact they probably knew darn good and well that people would either sit on these coupons and have them expire, or not know enough not to wait until the last minute......

All federal bureaucrats? I kind of doubt it, probably just the one's in the FCC. You know, the guys who made a big deal of "defective costumes.":D I doubt if GW even got to look at this before it went into effect. Probably somebody on his staff gave the OK.

Such a program involves more than just the FCC. House, Senate, Treasury come to mind.

The White House (under any administration) would care little of spending any real time or resources on such a trivial matter and small budget expenditure. That's what the departments are for. It would be as important for the White House to spend resources on combing over a DOD expenditure of an equal budget amount for M1 tank parts. Just not high on the priority list. ;)

OK, I'll just leave it as government screw up. The expiration dates were dumb.

I was actually discussing this with my wife last night and what we couldn't understand is if you hand out a coupon, and it is not used, and you have X amount dollars, wouldn't you still have that money once the coupon expires?

If I write a check but I don't send it that money is still in the bank.

But I'm trying to apply common sense here and that is not something government seems to do.

I live in Copley and am planning to switch from TWC to Dish. I'd like to try getting my HD locals OTA with indoor antennas. To use DVR effectively, I'd like to avoid the need to adjust the antenna for different stations. From what I've been able to find online, all the Cleveland channels I care about (3,5,8,19,25,43) are in the Parma farm, 18.5 to 22.2 miles distant and within 5 degrees on the compass.

Any suggestions for an indoor antenna that is meeting similar requirements for other users? (I did search the thread but didn't come up with anything concrete.)
If you are getting Dish your locals will come by satellite (HD from 61.5, SD from 110). I used to get my locals OTA and not subscribe to the satellite delivered locals (called "LIL" on the DBS Forums for local into local), however not subscribing means getting no guide data in the EPG, which is a drag for DVR use.

BTW: Those of you in Akron should have a better shot at Youngstown than those of us up in Cleveland. I was in Akron (I-77 North between downtown and the SR-21 merge) last week and all the Y-Town FM stations were coming in on my car radio as strong as the Cleveland stations.

I suggest getting "DVR Advantage" from Dish, while you have to sub to the locals part of the DVR fee gets waived - my bill went up a whopping $1.01 last year when I switched to DVR advantage. $1.01 to get guide data is worth it!

I still use OTA as well, I keep my antenna aimed at Youngstown fro WKBN-DT. The guide data does show up for WKBN & WYFX (Dish cannot sell you the satellite-deliverd signals out-of-market but you still get the guide data for any station thay you scan in OTA as long as that station is in their database).

BTW I use a Silver Sensor for my indoor antenna and I get WKBN-DT 24/7 from Parma. Being on high ground helps, as well as aiming the antena through a window facing the transmitter. I also have a rooftop UHF antenna aimed at Youngstown, but the wind as knocked it out of whack (my chimney is too small to support the mast properly). I get the other 2 Youngstown stations from the rooftop when the atmosphere assists the signals. WYTV is supposed to get a major power increase soon so that may help get that station here in the near future.

Does anyone know if/when there are plans for DirecTV to carry WUAB-HD, and if not what the holdup is? It is the only major Cleveland local that is only offered in SD. I have tried contacting WUAB using the email address on their homepage (info@my43.net) a few times and have gotten no response. When I called DirecTV they game me an unsurprising lack of info.