What is the FCC doing to make it "painful" for the stations to shut off analog "early" (formerly known as "on time")?

Here is the relevant part of your quoted text:


so long as such prior termination is conducted in accordance with the Federal Communications Commission's requirements in effect on the date of enactment of this Act,


Those requirements include the guidelines put into place Thursday, before the bill takes effect probably next week.

Among the hurdles, the FCC will determine if the "early" (formerly "on time") shut off "is in the public interest", and will consider factors like local DTV coupon redemption - and multiple requests from a market to shut off analog early. (Basically, they don't want an entire market to shut off analog on February 17th, particularly if they don't feel the market is "ready" for the transition.)

This is already on the record.

Trip will probably give you a solid answer, but I'll bet it lays somewhere in here. This looks like a big loop hole to me.

Quit looking over my shoulder, hookbill!

:D

Trip can fill in the rest, but you're right, that's basically it.

Here is the relevant part of your quoted text:



Those requirements include the guidelines put into place Thursday, before the bill takes effect probably next week.

Among the hurdles, the FCC will determine if the "early" (formerly "on time") shut off "is in the public interest", and will consider factors like local DTV coupon redemption - and multiple requests from a market to shut off analog early. (Basically, they don't want an entire market to shut off analog on February 17th, particularly if they don't feel the market is "ready" for the transition.)

This is already on the record.

Heh Heh...beat you by (Maxwell Smart) that much!!:)

Heh Heh...beat you by (Maxwell Smart) that much!!:)

But I had the details. :D

Though you probably had a bird or two distracting you...

I was flipping through the channels, some late night TV viewing and I noticed that HD Net Movies on channel 472 is missing. Did I miss something from TWC? Or the network? Are we losing another HD Tier channel? I hope not cuz I hate the idea of paying $6.95 a month for only three channels.

I Noticed that if it is still the problem they moved HD Net Movies to the 800s First HD SDV channel

I Noticed that if it is still the problem they moved HD Net Movies to the 800s First HD SDV channel

That doesn't make sense. If it's SDV you should still get it at it's current location.

I doubt it's still a problem since nickdawg hasn't commented.

Question: I just hooked up an antenna to my Dish ViP722 receiver for a third recording tuner, and I've got everything BUT WOIO - is this situation unusual at all? I know there are interference issues, but I'm not getting ANYTHING on frequency 10, not even anything from the other station.

The thing that seems odd is that I get WKYC on frequency 2 (with a 62-66 signal, but it locks reliably). Isn't frequency 10 easier to get than frequency 2? WKYC's antenna, according to antennaweb, is 8.4 miles out, and WOIO's is 8.4 - both in the Parma antenna farm, I'm guessing. I'm about as far west as you get in Shaker, off Van Aken almost up to Shaker Square, so my location is about as good as it's going to get on the East Side, I think, short of being further south.

Oh, and I also get WVIZ digital on channel 26, albeit with a 60-61 signal. I'd read they were on a weak temporary antenna, so I'm surprised to even get them, let alone get them before WOIO.

This just puzzles me all the more about WOIO. It seems like WKYC and WVIZ should be harder to get. I know WKYC will be moving to frequency 17 in June, if their tower is done by then, so that'll help on that front. The really ironic thing is that WOIO bills itself as from "Shaker Heights" and I can't seem to pick it up IN Shaker! :D

Question: I just hooked up an antenna to my Dish ViP722 receiver for a third recording tuner, and I've got everything BUT WOIO - is this situation unusual at all? I know there are interference issues, but I'm not getting ANYTHING on frequency 10, not even anything from the other station.

The thing that seems odd is that I get WKYC on frequency 2 (with a 62-66 signal, but it locks reliably). Isn't frequency 10 easier to get than frequency 2? WKYC's antenna, according to antennaweb, is 8.4 miles out, and WOIO's is 8.4 - both in the Parma antenna farm, I'm guessing. I'm about as far west as you get in Shaker, off Van Aken almost up to Shaker Square, so my location is about as good as it's going to get on the East Side, I think, short of being further south.

Oh, and I also get WVIZ digital on channel 26, albeit with a 60-61 signal. I'd read they were on a weak temporary antenna, so I'm surprised to even get them, let alone get them before WOIO.

This just puzzles me all the more about WOIO. It seems like WKYC and WVIZ should be harder to get. I know WKYC will be moving to frequency 17 in June, if their tower is done by then, so that'll help on that front. The really ironic thing is that WOIO bills itself as from "Shaker Heights" and I can't seem to pick it up IN Shaker! :D

Welcome to the board! I have a ViP 622 so I'm familiar with your receiver. WOIO is running an extremely low powered transmitter because they have to protect a Canadian ch 10 in London Ontario. This does not mean you shouldn't be able to receive the signal in Shaker, but it does mean you need the right antenna.

If they were running at full power you could get away with a UHF antenna for the high-VHF band (7-13). However seeing that they are weak, you need an antenna rated to receive upper VHF (if you are getting ch 3 [rf 2] then your antenna theoretically should work). The only thing you did not share was the type and location of your antenna. If it's indoors, you need to aim it out a west-facing window. Walls do a dandy job in attenuating radio waves.

I live right by the transmitters (.8 - 1.3 miles away) and have seen drastic differences when my antenna is looking out a window vs. through a wall. Even this close, the walls mess up the reception.

BTW: WKYC's tower and WOIO's & WBNX's towers (and WQHS if you speak Spanish) are next to each other along the Broadview at West Ridgewood Rds. corridor, so if you are aimed at one, you are hitting them all (WJW is a little bit farther south and west of the "pack", as well as WEWS and WUAB).

BTW: For fun & giggles try scanning rf 41. If you have an EAST facing window to aim your antenna you may be surprised by the result ;)

Welcome to the board! I have a ViP 622 so I'm familiar with your receiver. WOIO is running an extremely low powered transmitter because they have to protect a Canadian ch 10 in London Ontario. This does not mean you shouldn't be able to receive the signal in Shaker, but it does mean you need the right antenna.

If they were running at full power you could get away with a UHF antenna for the high-VHF band (7-13). However seeing that they are weak, you need an antenna rated to receive upper VHF (if you are getting ch 3 [rf 2] then your antenna theoretically should work). The only thing you did not share was the type and location of your antenna. If it's indoors, you need to aim it out a west-facing window. Walls do a dandy job in attenuating radio waves.

I live right by the transmitters (.8 - 1.3 miles away) and have seen drastic differences when my antenna is looking out a window vs. through a wall. Even this close, the walls mess up the reception.

BTW: WKYC's tower and WOIO's & WBNX's towers (and WQHS if you speak Spanish) are next to each other along the Broadview at West Ridgewood Rds. corridor, so if you are aimed at one, you are hitting them all (WJW is a little bit farther south and west of the "pack", as well as WEWS and WUAB).

BTW: For fun & giggles try scanning rf 41. If you have an EAST facing window to aim your antenna you may be surprised by the result ;)

Thanks for your response!
Oops - sorry for not including specific antenna info. I'm running a Philips SDV2210/17 rabbit ear set indoors. Here's the link to it on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Philips-SDV2210-17-Indoor-Antenna/dp/B000UPA7CG
I picked it up at Walmart for about 10 bucks, figuring I'd give a cheap rabbit-ear set a try before spending more money, given my location. It's rated for low and high VHF, which might be why I'm picking up WKYC all the way down on frequency 2, and why I'm surprised I'm not getting a peep out of WOIO.

Didn't really expect much - hence I was surprised to see it picking up what it is. On one scan with the antenna right next to the (huge, southwest-facing) bay window, I had 15 channels picked up, including, oddly enough, WEAO, which AntennaWeb says is coming from 27 miles away, which was pretty shocking. I obviously lost that when I started fine-tuning and repositioned the antenna (the signal was a 58-60) but it's no big loss since I can bring in WVIZ.

At the moment, I've got WKYC, WEWS, WJW and WVIZ coming in reliably, so really all I want is WOIO. Note: I GET more than this (including WBNX and WQHS) but I don't USE them. I don't know if there's another antenna that might work better? I've read that some of the "expensive" antennas aren't even worth much, and I don't think I'd better try for a UHF-only antenna given the situation with VHF channels in the Cleveland area. An outdoor antenna really isn't an option, because I have diplexers already in use to feed TV2 from the 722 back to the existing house wiring, and I'd have to run cable quite a long way to feed the antenna input into that.

One thing: On one dipole of the Philips antenna, the next-to-last segment was slightly bent out of the box. It's not much - it still retracts and extends okay, with a bit of extra force - would getting a replacement possibly help at all? I've specifically read, also, that the Philips MANT510 (the amplified one) isn't very good.

Thanks for all the ideas, folks. I did all the captures but I haven't been able to test them yet. At the moment, my 5yo is watching her Animaniacs DVD, so I know better than to interrupt that! But I'll get to test the captures later today. In addition, I'll try some of the experiments that NiteWatchman describes and post the results.


Thought a little more about this, given that remuxing seems to fix the issue, and had another thought that hopefully might be of some use. This is going to be even more "long-winded" than the last one(sorry! I'm doing my best) -- Probably should have taken this to PM, but in case it's of use to anyone else, thought I'd go ahead and post it here :

You said your capture card/software was using a *.tp file ... If so, usually, I think a *.tp file would mostly involve Only saving/capturing the streams(such as video/audio) specific to the program stream or to say it another way the "subchannel"(for stations that have those) of interest, rather than capturing the entire TS(transport stream) as the station is sending it(including all the metadata/PSIP and all the subchannels and null packets). Hence the "P" for "program" in the "TP".

Looking through some of the "AV/Parameters" you posted for a "lost" cap here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15755691&postcount=16968

And comparing it with the TSreader cap for WEWS at rabbit ears ---

It is immediately apparent that the PIDs (packet identifiers) have been renumbered - For example, presumably by the capture card or software ... Other "stuff" could be happening as well ... I'm just guessing, but perhaps the capture card/software is demuxing the audio/video streams, and remuxing/"placing them" in it's own "TP" container. Which *perhaps* may or may not be competely "to specs" the PS3 is expecting for TS files ... In other words, much or all what you "get" from the "TP" from your card/capture may *NOT* the same as what WEWS sends in their transport stream, except for the Elementary Video/Audio streams themselves ...

OTOH, it's also possible that the only thing that's happening is that the PID's are being renumbered, and anything that's not needed (such as PSIP and null packets, or other "subchannel's" audio/video - latter involved for WEWS) is being stripped, (which is the same thing MPEG2repair does, except it also performs error checking and repair when possible) and otherwise, It's still the "same" as the TS WEWS is sending (With the same timecode info, PAT/PMT/etc) ...

You might want to try opening the TP in TSreader(set it's input source to "Transport file", that will work for TS, I'd think it should work for your TP files as well) and see what's there (TSreader doesn't have to support your capture card to do that) ....

In either case -- I think It's important to understand(expect you already do) --- The actual Video/audio data in Elemetary MPEG2 Video/AC-3 Audio streams sent by WEWS stay just as they are encoded by WEWS and as they are captured by your card regardless and including if you say, use Tsremuxer, or use VideoRedo to convert to a different file contanier, such as to MPG PS file -- MPG, DVR-MS .... A bit of an exception involved would be if say, VideoRedo finds errors and needs to "fix" them or drop audio or video frames, or if MPEG2repair finds errors and fixes them ... Although that doesn't change the actual "encoding" of the video/audio, it just removes small parts of it, or replaces "corrupt data" with for example data which will replace "on screen corruption" with "black" pixels to keep the audio/video in sync if frames have to be dropped, and to keep players from choking ....

This might seem to make things even more confusing regarding :

Why then, or how is it possible your TP's (including "renamed to TS) work just fine with your PS3 everywhere else, except for in some cases with WEWS ? --

Well, my best guess (only a guess) at this point is still that it may have something to do with something I said in my last post(which I've quoted below), but also *potentially* specifically involving what your capture card/capture card software *may be* doing, particularly perhaps if what it's "doing" to create the TP involves any muxing/demuxing :


I know nothing about the PS3 and any oddities it might have regarding demuxing ATSC compliant MPEG2 Transport streams and any oddities that might be involved regarding properly identifying and decoding the Elementary MPEG2 Video/AC3 audio streams :

But I do know certian demuxers and other software tools I've used seem to run into certian "oddities" with certian stations transport streams, and not others, whearas other software that do the same things have no problems, and I can also find, in these cases nothing actually "wrong" with the TS's or what the stations are doing ----- Especially regarding one demuxer and one particular station in my area's anudio stream(even if there are NO errors found with various "error checking" software in the TS or the AC3 Stream), or in other cases when there are certian errors in the stream involved, such as can sometimes occur due to continuity/TEI errors because of "reception issues", or for other reasons on the "station end", such as say, a corrupted packet in a AC3 audio stream here or there, or video/audio timestamp gaps/etc ....


Now -- If that's it -- I also might not have said that quite right, because in some cases(not all, some have seemed specific to *something* with the TS, such as involving timestamp gaps) certian *oddities* like this I've ran into involving certian software tools aren't specific to the *transport stream*, but instead seem specific to the elementary AC3 *Audio Stream* (Possibly could be specific video stream as well, but I don't think I've run across that) ...

For example, with WSTR (My Network TV) here, MPEG2repair or other software finds no "errors" with their TS and no corrupted audio or video frames/etc). But when I demux it(even if I had Capped to a MPG PS instead of TS) with one particular demuxer which has NO problems of this sort with any other stations' streams in the area -- It demuxes the video just fine, but, for say, a two hour capture, it will only get so far with the audio stream(say about 15 minutes or so) and then can't "go" any farther ... thus, for something I want run a IVTC(inverse telecine) and want to to reencode(such as X264/MPEG4 for video, AAC for audio) I end up with 2 hours of video and 15 Minutes of audio! However, if I use a different demuxer, BOTH the video and Audio streams(the entire 2 hours) demux just fine ...

And I don't *think* (again just a guess) it's because "certain stations" I've ran into such issues with are doing something wrong. because again, If I use other software to process the streams involved(and do note that I haven't run into anything like that with WCPO's streams and the particular demuxer involved), there are no problems ....

The best I've been able to come up with is that I suspect there just may be some incompatiabilities involved between how some stations have things set up and/or involving the specific equipment they're using(certian "brand" of equipment/etc) and some demuxers or muxers (I've only ran into this with software tools, but I'd think it could apply to hardware as well) ...

In any case, when issues such as these arise -- I've heard, and it seems to be the case in your situation as well, that Re-Multiplexing (as occurs when you use TSMuxer, or when you convert to MPG/etc with VideoRedo) will Often "fix" this sort of problem .... There may not be another way to "fix it", other than(perhaps) to use different capture card/software that will just cap and dump to disk the entire TS from WEWS, or that does something "differently" regarding muxing and Demuxing and caps to say MPG or DVR-MS container formats. And I suspect it's possible you may just see it "go away" someday if at some poit WEWS makes some changes, perhaps involving installation of new equipment ...

If you DO have another way to make the caps (such as to a "entire" TS, or to MPG or DVR-MS with say WatchHDTV(freeware, don't know if it supports your card though), or for DVR-MS with MCE, or with another capture card) That might be something useful to try.

It might also be useful to know if anyone else using different capture card/different capture card software is having the same problem you are with PS3 and WEWS.

That doesn't make sense. If it's SDV you should still get it at it's current location.

I doubt it's still a problem since nickdawg hasn't commented.

No, Shooter is right. It's not on 472 where it should be, but it is on 843. A quick look at the diagnostics screen shows it to be an sdv channel.

Probably just an outage. I don't see TW dropping one without dropping the other. I'll bet it's up today.

Oh and I'm still getting Universal HD and you are correct it's suppose to be part of the package so I don't know why I'm slipping through the cracks. I'll bet it has to do with cable cards.

It was beyond "out". The actual channel was missing from the guide. Not even accessible by entering 4-7-2.

I found it. HD Net Movies is on channel 843. In the SDV test area.

And guess what else, HD Net on 471 and STO HD on 435 are HD-SDV channels. That's the best news.

Maybe that April date isn't BS after all!! :p

It was beyond "out". The actual channel was missing from the guide. Not even accessible by entering 4-7-2.

I found it. HD Net Movies is on channel 843. In the SDV test area.

And guess what else, HD Net on 471 and STO HD on 435 are HD-SDV channels. That's the best news.

Maybe that April date isn't BS after all!! :p

If we are all getting sdv now, why can't they add the new HD channels now.

I Noticed that if it is still the problem they moved HD Net Movies to the 800s First HD SDV channel

That doesn't make sense. If it's SDV you should still get it at it's current location.

I doubt it's still a problem since nickdawg hasn't commented.

...that's what happens when i don't read everything before commenting...:o:o

You guys figured it out. They must have not moved it back for whatever reason.

Also, STO HD and HDNET are SDV.

Shooter, you're in Erie and you have SDV?

Erie, New Philadelphia, Akron, Canton, Cleveland Suburbs, etc. Are you getting any channels through SDV?

Yea All of Erie and Suburbs have SDV

Yea All of Erie and Suburbs have SDV

New Philadelphia also has SDV. We've had it enabled I believe for a month or two. At least according to the diagnostic screen.

It still doesn't make sense. Why would they move the channel? They have to be testing still, if SDV is active you wouldn't notice the difference like nickdawg said previously.

Anyway, SDV is definitely not active in my area, there are no signs of life on the diagnostic screen and we still are running SARA.

And the reason you don't have more HD is they are not going to give it until they make SDV available for everyone, so if you are actively on SDV now the rest of us ex Adelphia are not.

You guys in Erie, are you getting SARA or Navigator software?

Yea All of Erie and Suburbs have SDV

New Philadelphia also has SDV. We've had it enabled I believe for a month or two. At least according to the diagnostic screen.

Here's my next question. Do you have mystro Navigator guide or the SARA program guide?

It still doesn't make sense. Why would they move the channel? They have to be testing still, if SDV is active you wouldn't notice the difference like nickdawg said previously.

Anyway, SDV is definitely not active in my area, there are no signs of life on the diagnostic screen and we still are running SARA.

And the reason you don't have more HD is they are not going to give it until they make SDV available for everyone, so if you are actively on SDV now the rest of us ex Adelphia are not.

You guys in Erie, are you getting SARA or Navigator software?

You see, hookbill. They started adding test channels around the end of January. Things were moving painfully slow until that interview with Jasso at OMW. After that, all of the sports PPV package channels moved to SDV. Just this week, channels 319-330 went SDV and those three HD channels this week as well.

THEY DID ALL THIS IN ABOUT 3 1/2 WEEKS!! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

It took almost four months to move about the same amount of channels to Digital Simulcast! SDV is supposed to be "new and scary" but they did it.

Just because it is not active on screen, doesn't mean the necessary steps aren't happening behind the scenes. Remember they said "project completed in March". We still have three weeks of February and the month of March. You'll get there when you're ready.

You see, hookbill. They started adding test channels around the end of January. Things were moving painfully slow until that interview with Jasso at OMW. After that, all of the sports PPV package channels moved to SDV. Just this week, channels 319-330 went SDV and those three HD channels this week as well.

THEY DID ALL THIS IN ABOUT 3 1/2 WEEKS!! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

It took almost four months to move about the same amount of channels to Digital Simulcast! SDV is supposed to be "new and scary" but they did it.

Just because it is not active on screen, doesn't mean the necessary steps aren't happening behind the scenes. Remember they said "project completed in March". We still have three weeks of February and the month of March. You'll get there when you're ready.

Well, they haven't done diddly squat around here, and until they do you won't get any HD channels, so what's the big deal?

Not only that but you still haven't answered my question about why they would change channels. I'll tell you why, it's because they are testing it.

And I already asked the question about software before you did.

In Erie I am pretty sure we are on Navigator

Not only that but you still haven't answered my question about why they would change channels. I'll tell you why, it's because they are testing it.



They're not test channels. If I put it on 471 or 435, the channel IS SDV!! I checked the Diagnostic screen on the 4250 box, it has a different screen. And it tells you straight up SDV or NON SDV. STO, HD NET, HDNET Movies, plus the other channels I've lhad on that list all say SDV.

Amd for the record, if all these other areas Erir, New Phil, Akron, probably canton and Y Town too have SDV, we should be seeing some new channels very soon. Plus the ex-Comcast guy said SDV was going live there sometime in February. All these areas with SDV, screw Cleveland!!

Or maybe they can start "testing" the addition of new channels like USA and F/X on their legacy system. I wouldn't mind being a test subject! ;)

They're not test channels. If I put it on 471 or 435, the channel IS SDV!! I checked the Diagnostic screen on the 4250 box, it has a different screen. And it tells you straight up SDV or NON SDV. STO, HD NET, HDNET Movies, plus the other channels I've lhad on that list all say SDV.

Amd for the record, if all these other areas Erir, New Phil, Akron, probably canton and Y Town too have SDV, we should be seeing some new channels very soon. Plus the ex-Comcast guy said SDV was going live there sometime in February. All these areas with SDV, screw Cleveland!!

Or maybe they can start "testing" the addition of new channels like USA and F/X on their legacy system. I wouldn't mind being a test subject! ;)

My guide on the 4250 is still the same, of course I don't get that package so I can't verify the that HDnet Movies is active.

OK, you've convinced me you've got SDV, but it still won't do you any good until we get it over here, and I am telling you they haven't even started anything. It would appear they still need to get past the point of switching SARA to Navigator before anything can happen and that seems to be the part they can't figure out.

Thanks for all the ideas, folks. I did all the captures but I haven't been able to test them yet. I'll get to test the captures later today.
I finally got a minute to test and report the results of my eight ABC captures from last night. I have not yet had time to do any of Nitewatchman's experiments, but I will as soon as I can. It's going to take me a while just to digest it all! :)

Last night I captured eight shows from ABC (via my MyHD card, via T/W QAM). Of the eight shows, one (Wife Swap) plays perfectly. Two (ABC World News and Nightline) give the same 80028801 error that I usually get with Lost. The other five shows (20-20, Jeopardy, Jimmy Kimmel, Newschannel 5 at 6, and Supernanny) all play perfect video, but with no audio. The PS3 reports that there is no audio track in the file.

I have no idea why the audio works on Wife Swap, but not on any of the others.

I'm not sure how to interpret this result. I don't see any particular pattern. All eight files report the same internal parameters. Even the SD shows Supernanny and Wife Swap are transmitted in 1280x720x59.94 and appear to use the same bandwidth as the HD shows.

As a quick test, I changed the capture setting to tell my system to capture the entire stream rather than just the single channel, then captured a couple of minutes of the basketball game that is currently on WEWS. The resulting file plays correct video, but still has no sound. So that change doesn't appear to have made any difference.

I'm not sure how the PS3 decides which stream to play - MediaInfo reports that the file now contains two MPEG2 streams and two AC3 audio streams.

I've scheduled a few more captures for this evening with this setting. I should have a bit more time to look at it tomorrow.

My guide on the 4250 is still the same, of course I don't get that package so I can't verify the that HDnet Movies is active.

OK, you've convinced me you've got SDV, but it still won't do you any good until we get it over here, and I am telling you they haven't even started anything. It would appear they still need to get past the point of switching SARA to Navigator before anything can happen and that seems to be the part they can't figure out.

They don't have to switch to Navigator for SDV. They only had to switch here because Assport wasn't SDV-capable. They could have the new version, but they decided to go with their new in house program.

My guess is that they'll start ligthing up SDV on SARA soon, since it is SDV compliant. Remember, that article said nothing about Navigator.

Right now their main concern is getting more HD channels before they lose more customers. That's why so much progress was made here. And its coming to a TV near you soon too.

They'll probably do Navigator later, when they add features like StartOver.

Also, if they were truly having trouble with SARA and Navigator and SDV, their spokes person would not have told a trusted source like OMW that they are expected to be done in March. Lots of industry people read OMW, they're not just blowing smoke up our asses.

They don't have to switch to Navigator for SDV. They only had to switch here because Assport wasn't SDV-capable. They could have the new version, but they decided to go with their new in house program.

My guess is that they'll start ligthing up SDV on SARA soon, since it is SDV compliant. Remember, that article said nothing about Navigator.

Right now their main concern is getting more HD channels before they lose more customers. That's why so much progress was made here. And its coming to a TV near you soon too.

They'll probably do Navigator later, when they add features like StartOver.

Also, if they were truly having trouble with SARA and Navigator and SDV, their spokes person would not have told a trusted source like OMW that they are expected to be done in March. Lots of industry people read OMW, they're not just blowing smoke up our asses.

I don't want to be disrespectful again to this guy who made this statement but even OMW said they wouldn't hold him to that comment. Neither should you or I.

I have absolutely no doubt that the big problem is trying to get SARA converted to Navigator although I fully agree with you there shouldn't be a reason why, at least not one I know about. Even the TW person (sorry, I fogot his name) said the big problem was getting everybody on board.

Have we heard from any ex Comcast people yet? The Erie people are ex Adelphia, are they not?

Let's put it this way. Come April 7th, I'm gonna give a full week extra if there is a HD lineup available like Columbus has I will fully admit I was wrong. If it's not up by then then I'll stick with my Fall date.

I finally got a minute to test and report the results of my eight ABC captures from last night. I have not yet had time to do any of Nitewatchman's experiments, but I will as soon as I can. It's going to take me a while just to digest it all! :)

Last night I captured eight shows from ABC (via my MyHD card, via T/W QAM). Of the eight shows, one (Wife Swap) plays perfectly. Two (ABC World News and Nightline) give the same 80028801 error that I usually get with Lost. The other five shows (20-20, Jeopardy, Jimmy Kimmel, Newschannel 5 at 6, and Supernanny) all play perfect video, but with no audio. The PS3 reports that there is no audio track in the file.

I have no idea why the audio works on Wife Swap, but not on any of the others.

I'm not sure how to interpret this result. I don't see any particular pattern. All eight files report the same internal parameters. Even the SD shows Supernanny and Wife Swap are transmitted in 1280x720x59.94 and appear to use the same bandwidth as the HD shows.

As a quick test, I changed the capture setting to tell my system to capture the entire stream rather than just the single channel, then captured a couple of minutes of the basketball game that is currently on WEWS. The resulting file plays correct video, but still has no sound. So that change doesn't appear to have made any difference.

I'm not sure how the PS3 decides which stream to play - MediaInfo reports that the file now contains two MPEG2 streams and two AC3 audio streams.

I've scheduled a few more captures for this evening with this setting. I should have a bit more time to look at it tomorrow.

This reminds me of the time I had problems with cable cards and not getting any sound on a couple of channels. And Hallmark I couldn't get at all (that's when it was digital.)

The headend person I deal with had to do something with the stream itself to fix it. I'm sure you've already figured it out with all the extensive research and help you've had here and you seem to indicate that in your posts.

So it would appear to me that your only solution (without converting) is to have WEWS fix the stream, and I just wonder if that's even possible. Do you intend to pursue it?

Also that's very odd about Wife Swap but just curious, is that an HD show or is it just SD. If it's SD then it probably has that fake Dolby coming out of it.

The headend person I deal with had to do something with the stream itself to fix it. I'm sure you've already figured it out with all the extensive research and help you've had here and you seem to indicate that in your posts.

So it would appear to me that your only solution (without converting) is to have WEWS fix the stream, and I just wonder if that's even possible. Do you intend to pursue it?

Also that's very odd about Wife Swap but just curious, is that an HD show or is it just SD. If it's SD then it probably has that fake Dolby coming out of it.
I have no idea whether or not WEWS can or would fix the problem. My most reasonable solutions are: 1) Buy a media player that can handle these streams. There are several that would work fine. 2) Wait for Sony to make improvements to the software so that the PS3 is more compatible with these streams. If nearly every other player on the market (both HW and SW) plays these without issue, then so should the PS3.

I also don't know what to make of Wife Swap. It's an SD show, but it's transmitted in full HD (720p) and full Dolby Digital (AC-3). So even if the actual audio and video (not to mention content! :) ) are junk, to the PS3 it should look just like any of those other shows.

I also don't know what to make of Wife Swap. It's an SD show, but it's transmitted in full HD (720p) and full Dolby Digital (AC-3). So even if the actual audio and video (not to mention content! :) ) are junk, to the PS3 it should look just like any of those other shows.

Glad to hear you say that, I was kind of wondering...:)

There is another member of this forum that does watch that program. I won't mention his name, he knows who he is.:D;)

I don't want to be disrespectful again to this guy who made this statement but even OMW said they wouldn't hold him to that comment. Neither should you or I.

But at the same time, this guy would not have made such a statement if it were not true. If you say March, and then wait until fall to add channels. The public response would be worse than saying nothing at all(like they usually do).

I have absolutely no doubt that the big problem is trying to get SARA converted to Navigator although I fully agree with you there shouldn't be a reason why, at least not one I know about. Even the TW person (sorry, I fogot his name) said the big problem was getting everybody on board.

I really hope they're not doing Navigator now. Especially since SARA is capable of SDV, it would be a waste of time. Navigator takes forever too. My old Pioneer box was hit with Navigator in March. The 8300HD didn't get it until the first week of May because they were doing each box model one week at a time. SARA is SDV complaint, no need to change that to add SDV channels.

Have we heard from any ex Comcast people yet? The Erie people are ex Adelphia, are they not?

The ex-Comcast guy said just last week that his area was supposed to go SDV sometime this month. If Erie is ex-Adelphia, then that means an Adelphia area has SDV too. And if it is firmer Adelphia, that must mean SDV is running on SARA.

Let's put it this way. Come April 7th, I'm gonna give a full week extra if there is a HD lineup available like Columbus has I will fully admit I was wrong. If it's not up by then then I'll stick with my Fall date.

I'm not expecting a big HD lineup. They're not going to add 15 or 20 channels over night. Plus I doubt I'll see it on the 1st or the 7st, since they usually start in Canton. :p

regardless, I think your fall date is very, very wrong.

I also don't know what to make of Wife Swap. It's an SD show, but it's transmitted in full HD (720p) and full Dolby Digital (AC-3). So even if the actual audio and video (not to mention content! :) ) are junk, to the PS3 it should look just like any of those other shows.

Wife Swap is NOT 720p. It is 480i SD converted to 720p by the affiliate. It is Dolby Digital, but not surround sound. It's supposed to be 2.0 like all SD programming, but WEWS passes it in "fake" surround sound.

In Erie I am pretty sure we are on Navigator

Nickdawg pay attention!!!!!

What is the FCC doing to make it "painful" for the stations to shut off analog "early" (formerly known as "on time")?

From the rules document:

"Consistent with our public interest responsibilities and Congress’ delay of the transition to June 12 to give consumers additional time to prepare, the Commission reserves the right to limit or reconsider this partial waiver in the event that it determines that analog termination on February 17 by a station or group of stations is contrary to the public interest. In such event, the Commission will promptly notify the affected station or stations. The Commission may consider such action if, for example, we find that all or most of the stations in a market will terminate their analog service on February 17, and that the market is one in which many viewers are unprepared for the transition or at risk if the transition proceeds. In such case, we may require affected stations to submit additional information to explain and justify how their early termination advances the public interest.

[...]

To protect viewer expectations and to carry out the purpose of the Third DTV Periodic procedures, these stations must also broadcast, prior to termination, the equivalent of 30 days worth of “viewer notifications,” regarding the station’s intention to terminate its analog service on February 17, 2009, despite the delay in the nationwide deadline.

[...]

We remind stations that if they terminate their analog service prior to the June 12 transition date, they may operate only a digital facility that is approved for pre-transition service. Stations that want to begin operating prior to the transition date on a post-transition digital facility that differs from their pre-transition facility must first file a request for digital Special Temporary Authority (STA) to seek Commission approval for an early transition. Pursuant to the Third DTV Periodic Report and Order, a station may request permission to operate its post-transition facility before the transition deadline, provided it demonstrates that it will (1) not cause impermissible interference to any authorized analog or pre-transition digital stations; (2) maintain at least its current digital service; and (3) commence full, authorized post-transition operations on the transition deadline. Stations requesting such approval must also indicate whether such early operation would result in loss of their own analog or digital service."

Emphasis mine.

That's the gist of it. Try getting approval on an STA in a week when hundreds are filed at once. It's not happening.

- Trip

Nickdawg pay attention!!!!!

Then it must not be ex-Adelphia. :rolleyes:

Jim, I have those 10ish second clips, from World News Tonight, Wheel, Jeopardy, the 8 PM show (Wife Swap? I wasn't paying attention), 20/20, the 11 PM local news and Nightline. I didn't bother with whatever was on at 9, since it was also in SD like the 8 PM show.

Do you still want these? I'll figure out how to get 'em to you.

That's the gist of it. Try getting approval on an STA in a week when hundreds are filed at once. It's not happening.

This, and not wanting to be a "digital only island" in the Cleveland market, is likely what caused WJW to backpedal.

When WNEO filed for its post-transition-facility STA, it took about three weeks, didn't it? And that was without a crush of applications in the very same week.

Here's my next question. Do you have mystro Navigator guide or the SARA program guide?

We are navigator down here in New Phila. Since Last summer.

The Ex-Adelphia Areas of Erie have been Navigator since June of last year

We are navigator down here in New Phila. Since Last summer.

Were you adelphia comcast or were you always TW?

The Ex-Adelphia Areas of Erie have been Navigator since June of last year

See nickdawg. Wrong again.

Shooter were you ever SARA?

Can anybody tell me if this makes any sense:

I upgraded from basic cable to digital cable with Time Warner last year when I got my new tv. So I have the Digital Value Service and the Digital Tier. My On Demand station had an error message all week so I called the service line and they had me unplug the box, didn't work. Then they tried something from their end, but it didn't work either so they had a guy come out to fix it today. He got that fixed with no problem, but then I told him that my ESPN HD channel doesn't always work, and that since the day that the tried to fix it while I was on the phone, my BBC America and Game Show Network weren't coming in at all now. Admitedly, no big loss on those two.

But then the cable guy tells me that I shouldn't be getting any HD channels because I'm not subscribed to any of those packages. Yet I've had all the local channels plus TNT, TBS, A&E, FOOD, History, Discovery and even (for about six months) Universal HD.

So, was what he said true? Or is it just another TW scam? When I upgraded last year I told them over the phone that I wanted digital cable with the free HD stations that they offer.

Can anybody tell me if this makes any sense:

I upgraded from basic cable to digital cable with Time Warner last year when I got my new tv. So I have the Digital Value Service and the Digital Tier. My On Demand station had an error message all week so I called the service line and they had me unplug the box, didn't work. Then they tried something from their end, but it didn't work either so they had a guy come out to fix it today. He got that fixed with no problem, but then I told him that my ESPN HD channel doesn't always work, and that since the day that the tried to fix it while I was on the phone, my BBC America and Game Show Network weren't coming in at all now. Admitedly, no big loss on those two.

But then the cable guy tells me that I shouldn't be getting any HD channels because I'm not subscribed to any of those packages. Yet I've had all the local channels plus TNT, TBS, A&E, FOOD, History, Discovery and even (for about six months) Universal HD.

So, was what he said true? Or is it just another TW scam? When I upgraded last year I told them over the phone that I wanted digital cable with the free HD stations that they offer.


This is another example of techs shooting their mouths off and not knowing what they are talking about. Pathetic.

Time Warner gives free HD with it's digital package. If you have a box then you should be getting not only those channels but also ESPN, ESPN2. Now Universal HD you should not get, that's part of the premium digital package but for some reason I get that too.

After one year your price is going to skyrocket, be aware of that. This first year is cheap then they will charge you more but HD is free with digital. You should also receive BBC America, I'm not sure about Game Show Network but I think you should get that too.

If you continue to have problems, email steve.fry@twcable.com. That will solve any further issues, he's the President of TWNEO.

Were you adelphia comcast or were you always TW?

We were Adelphia.

So you see, there is no problem switching SARA to Navigator. It's just TWC's stupidity.

I really hope they're not going to do a system wide switch to Navigator BEFORE adding HD channels. Or else that Asswipe from the OMW article will be hearing from me. It is f**king insulting that we have to wait for the shittiest part of the system to be up to date before ANYONE can move forward. And this is not a original TWC vs. Adelphia turf war either. This is also Comcast, Adelphia and TWC people who are more advanced that part of the system.

Something tells me Mr. Jasso was the "last guy picked for dodgeball" and now he buys into that touchy feely "the team is only as strong as the weakest member" shite. BULLCRAP!!!

If our "TWC team" is only as strong as the weakest members, then our cable system must be the equivalent of the Browns!!! :D:D:D:D

We were Adelphia.

When you were adelphia did you have SARA or passport?

So you see, there is no problem switching SARA to Navigator. It's just TWC's stupidity.

I really hope they're not going to do a system wide switch to Navigator BEFORE adding HD channels. Or else that Asswipe from the OMW article will be hearing from me. It is f**king insulting that we have to wait for the shittiest part of the system to be up to date before ANYONE can move forward. And this is not a original TWC vs. Adelphia turf war either. This is also Comcast, Adelphia and TWC people who are more advanced that part of the system.

Something tells me Mr. Jasso was the "last guy picked for dodgeball" and now he buys into that touchy feely "the team is only as strong as the weakest member" shite. BULLCRAP!!!

If our "TWC team" is only as strong as the weakest members, then our cable system must be the equivalent of the Browns!!! :D:D:D:D

Ðoesn't mean anything. Adelphia was not a unified system. They may have had passport.

Jim, I have those 10ish second clips, from World News Tonight, Wheel, Jeopardy, the 8 PM show (Wife Swap? I wasn't paying attention), 20/20, the 11 PM local news and Nightline. I didn't bother with whatever was on at 9, since it was also in SD like the 8 PM show.

Do you still want these? I'll figure out how to get 'em to you.Yes. Well, what I really want is to know whether or not they play successfully on a PS3. And it seems the simplest way to find that out is for me to try them.

But I'm afraid I don't have any server space where you can post them. I know there are services out there that let you use temp space for that sort of thing, but I've never actually used one so I can't give you any pointers.

Yes. Well, what I really want is to know whether or not they play successfully on a PS3. And it seems the simplest way to find that out is for me to try them.

But I'm afraid I don't have any server space where you can post them. I know there are services out there that let you use temp space for that sort of thing, but I've never actually used one so I can't give you any pointers.

The final ZIP file is about 287 MB...

I'll figure out how, and let you know in the next couple of days!

Yes. Well, what I really want is to know whether or not they play successfully on a PS3. And it seems the simplest way to find that out is for me to try them.

But I'm afraid I don't have any server space where you can post them. I know there are services out there that let you use temp space for that sort of thing, but I've never actually used one so I can't give you any pointers.

I don't know if it would help at all, but I'd be happy to test the same recordings on my PS3 for comparison, though I'd bet the results would be the same. :( Again, same problem, how would you get me your recordings (or snippets there of)?

Does your MyHD card direct feed to your PS3? Have you tried transcoding the problem recordings through PS3MS and/or Tversity?

Anyway, just lemme know if I can help. :)

I don't know if it would help at all, but I'd be happy to test the same recordings on my PS3 for comparison, though I'd bet the results would be the same. :( Again, same problem, how would you get me your recordings (or snippets there of)?



He could upload it to a bit torrent site and you could download it that way.

I don't know if it would help at all, but I'd be happy to test the same recordings on my PS3 for comparison, though I'd bet the results would be the same. :( Again, same problem, how would you get me your recordings (or snippets there of)?

Does your MyHD card direct feed to your PS3? Have you tried transcoding the problem recordings through PS3MS and/or Tversity?

Anyway, just lemme know if I can help. :)
Inundated sent me a link via PM, but I can't see any harm in letting others try it. Here's his link: http://www.sendspace.com/file/yq1a3s

I haven't tested his clips yet myself. In fact, the download just finished.

The MyHD card shows live TV, captures live TV, and plays back captured TV, all on my computer. No, it doesn't directly feed the PS3. PSM and/or TVersity feed the PS3.

I've never gotten transcoding to work well. The result always stutters or fails or has A/V sync problems. I've tried all of the various transcoding options in both of these apps, but they just don't seem to handle this kind of high bandwidth video. And that's with a Core2 Quad CPU and gigabit ethernet. It works fine with other video sources, but not with HD transport streams. At least not in my experience.

When you were adelphia did you have SARA or passport?

We had passport before we had navigator. On adelphia we had motorola boxes. The summer of 07 twc came door to door and switched out the boxes for the sa boxes. It had to be coordinated with the switchover to passport. When they switched a neighborhood they had to come that day since the motorola boxes would not work on the digital channels. I know twc had employees from Canton switching boxes. There were many employees switching boxes. They did the whole area (New Phila, Dover, Dennison, Uhrichsville, etc) in about a month. Navigator came later as an upload. I can't remember exactly when.

Inundated sent me a link via PM, but I can't see any harm in letting others try it. Here's his link: http://www.sendspace.com/file/yq1a3s

I haven't tested his clips yet myself. In fact, the download just finished.

The MyHD card shows live TV, captures live TV, and plays back captured TV, all on my computer. No, it doesn't directly feed the PS3. PSM and/or TVersity feed the PS3.

I've never gotten transcoding to work well. The result always stutters or fails or has A/V sync problems. I've tried all of the various transcoding options in both of these apps, but they just don't seem to handle this kind of high bandwidth video. And that's with a Core2 Quad CPU and gigabit ethernet. It works fine with other video sources, but not with HD transport streams. At least not in my experience.

Yeah the PS3 is a nifty little box, but it has it's quirks. Like you I have no problem transcoding non-HD video, but anything HD and I get stuttering. Though I suspect my server computer and network are just not up to the task. If I put the HD video onto the PS3 hard drive the video is flawless, but then I lose audio (ex: PS3 can't play WMV audio if it's an HD video cuz WMV uses WMPro for HD content, which the PS3 can't play. :mad:)

I assume your MyHD card via your home server plays live feeds direct to your TV? If so, why can't you play back recorded MyHD content direct to the TV? Or is all (live and recorded) MyHD content using the PS3 as a transport/interconnect?

We had passport before we had navigator. On adelphia we had motorola boxes. The summer of 07 twc came door to door and switched out the boxes for the sa boxes. It had to be coordinated with the switchover to passport. When they switched a neighborhood they had to come that day since the motorola boxes would not work on the digital channels. I know twc had employees from Canton switching boxes. There were many employees switching boxes. They did the whole area (New Phila, Dover, Dennison, Uhrichsville, etc) in about a month. Navigator came later as an upload. I can't remember exactly when.

Thank you rick490!

I still have not seen one person who had SARA and got switched to Navigator. I'm of the opinion that in order for all of us to receive SDV it is necessary that we be set up on Navigator as well, as bad as it sucks.

So far nickdawg, you've proved the SDV thing for me in your area however we still don't know if the SARA software can or will be used. If it was going to be used why wouldn't they have started testing in my area?

OK, I've now tried all of the files that I captured last night (these were the ones where I captured the entire stream rather than just one program), and also all of Inundated's captures. The results were identical on all of them, with two exceptions. Basically, all of the files played their video content correctly, but had no audio content at all (at least as far as the PS3 was concerned). So that seems to be the general rule at this point.

That's the same result as most of my Friday captures. And it's the same result as Lost from this past week (which is frankly the only ABC show that I actually care about watching). However, it is a different result from the prior 3-4 Lost shows (from earlier weeks) where the PS3 gave an error (80028801) and refused to play the content at all. So that suggests to me that WEWS changed something in their stream about a week ago. (But see my later post for follow-up on this point.)

The two exceptions were:

1) Inundated's recording of Jeopardy from Friday, which wouldn't play at all. An anomaly, I think, as it didn't generate an error, just a blank screen. And my recording of the same show plays correctly (but silently).

2) my recording of Grey's Anatomy from yesterday, which plays perfectly including both video and audio.

More information drawn from this comparison: Both Inundated and I recorded Wife Swap on Friday. As you may recall, mine played both audio and video correctly. But Inundated's plays video only on the PS3. I can't even begin to explain this.

And another note: Inundated captured his video in MPG files rather than in TS files. So even with a different "envelope", the same problem(s) occur.

I'm going to try to find some time today to try some of the analytical tools and techniques that Nitewatchman brought up over the last couple of days.

I assume your MyHD card via your home server plays live feeds direct to your TV? If so, why can't you play back recorded MyHD content direct to the TV? Or is all (live and recorded) MyHD content using the PS3 as a transport/interconnect?
I can do direct output to my TV from the computer. It works fine, and that's what I've always done prior to getting the PS3. But the PS3 is much more user friendly for all this stuff, and it works perfectly on all of my HD captures except from WEWS. It's just particularly convenient to have all of the playback function (for BluRay, for DVD, for TV captures, for audio playlists, for digital photo slide shows, etc) in the same box and UI. And it's especially so for other members of the family.

OK, I've now tried all of the files that I captured last night (these were the ones where I captured the entire stream rather than just one program), and also all of Inundated's captures. The results were identical on all of them, with two exceptions. Basically, all of the files played their video content correctly, but had no audio content at all (at least as far as the PS3 was concerned). So that seems to be the general rule at this point.

That's the same result as most of my Friday captures. And it's the same result as Lost from this past week (which is frankly the only ABC show that I actually care about watching). However, it is a different result from the prior 3-4 Lost shows (from earlier weeks) where the PS3 gave an error (80028801) and refused to play the content at all. So that suggests to me that WEWS changed something in their stream about a week ago.

The two exceptions were:

1) Inundated's recording of Jeopardy from Friday, which wouldn't play at all. An anomaly, I think, as it didn't generate an error, just a blank screen. And my recording of the same show plays correctly (but silently).

2) my recording of Grey's Anatomy from yesterday, which plays perfectly including both video and audio.

More information drawn from this comparison: Both Inundated and I recorded Wife Swap on Friday. As you may recall, mine played both audio and video correctly. But Inundated's plays video only on the PS3. I can't even begin to explain this.

And another note: Inundated captured his video in MPG files rather than in TS files. So even with a different "envelope", the same problem(s) occur.

I'm going to try to find some time today to try some of the analytical tools and techniques that Nitewatchman brought up over the last couple of days.

Time to punt Jim!:D

So far nickdawg, you've proved the SDV thing for me in your area however we still don't know if the SARA software can or will be used. If it was going to be used why wouldn't they have started testing in my area?

Actually, I recall sometime back and even in numerous locations where both Passport and SARA have been perfectly capable of SDV. But in the case of TW, they want everyone to be uniform and are trying to switch everyone to Navigator anyway. But SARA and Passport both are capable of interacting with SDV services FWIW.

Basically, all of the files played their video content correctly, but had no audio content at all (at least as far as the PS3 was concerned). So that seems to be the general rule at this point.

That's the same result as most of my Friday captures. And it's the same result as Lost from this past week (which is frankly the only ABC show that I actually care about watching). However, it is a different result from the prior 3-4 Lost shows (from earlier weeks) where the PS3 gave an error (80028801) and refused to play the content at all. So that suggests to me that WEWS changed something in their stream about a week ago.
I've just discovered something that makes me question the conclusion above. I have a recording from WEWS from a year ago that I had forgotten about. A friend of mine was on Jeopardy and he asked me to record it for him. (Some of you may know him - Bill Needle, who used to do sports radio and TV here.)

Anyway, the recording was captured in two segments - at the time, I had my captures set up to split the captures at 2GB boundaries. So I tried them today on the PS3. The first segment played video with no audio. The second segment gave the 80028801 error. That's two segments of the exact same broadcast giving two different results!

So that tells me two things: 1) Whatever issue exists in the WEWS stream has been there for at least a year, and 2) the fact that I'm getting different failures from different shows (and even occasional successes) may not actually mean very much.

Time to punt Jim!:DProbably so. It's getting ridiculous.

I can do direct output to my TV from the computer. It works fine, and that's what I've always done prior to getting the PS3. But the PS3 is much more user friendly for all this stuff, and it works perfectly on all of my HD captures except from WEWS. It's just particularly convenient to have all of the playback function (for BluRay, for DVD, for TV captures, for audio playlists, for digital photo slide shows, etc) in the same box and UI. And it's especially so for other members of the family.

So going direct to the TV the WEWS recordings play fine, correct?

Probably so. It's getting ridiculous.

At this point, I think the only way you'd be able to solve this would be directly with a WEWS engineer, and even then, who knows?

My files were recorded with my Pinnacle USB HDTV stick. The Pinnacle software defaults to MPEG2 creation. I don't think it will record a transport stream directly, but considering your results with my files, I don't think that's going to matter at this point.

Another data point: I recorded these files OTA. I seem to recall you used a Time Warner QAM feed. It doesn't appear there's a difference.

I miss Bill Needle from his days doing weekends/fill-in on WKNR.

Hey guys,
We are testing a dual HD feed over the air feed today for WKBN and WYFX (27.1 & 27.2). Of course I'm fully aware of the hit in performance but I think it looks pretty good. I'd be interested in your opinions as to the tradeoff between the hit in performance and the ability to broadcast BOTH CBS and Fox in HD. No guarantees as to how long it will be up like this. I'm going to try and keep it at least through prime tonight depending on whether there are any problems reported to me. Right now CBS has college BB and Fox has Nascar. This is probably a fairly rigorous test for the stat muxing capabilities of my encoders. In other words, what you are seeing this afternoon will be quite representative of the worst case situation.

I have no idea whether or not WEWS can or would fix the problem. My most reasonable solutions are: 1) Buy a media player that can handle these streams. There are several that would work fine. 2) Wait for Sony to make improvements to the software so that the PS3 is more compatible with these streams. If nearly every other player on the market (both HW and SW) plays these without issue, then so should the PS3.


Sorry if I misunderstood some of your earlier post, but I thought it was the case it would work for proper decoding on the PS3 for the "problem caps" after you remux with TSmuxer or convert to *.MPG with VideoRedo ?

Concerning the conversion to *.mpg if that works, it's probably not because of the conversion to a MPG PS container, but because there is probably a demux then mux involved.

If so, that seems to me to perhaps be a useful option until(and if) the issue is resolved ...


I'm going to try to find some time today to try some of the analytical tools and techniques that Nitewatchman brought up over the last couple of days.


If the "remuxing" works, given your results with Inundated's Caps, I'm guessing that sort of digging probably won't lead to a better solution to the issue, and thus may not be worth the time and effort.

But, I suppose it is possible it may(but then again it probably won't) give you a better idea of what may be going on, and regarding what the best option might be to correct the issue(which, might turn out to be "wait and see if it gets fixed"), or to possibly give you more info to tell them if you decide to contact WEWS or Sony about the issue.

If you do continue digging, You've probably already thought of this, but just in case you haven't, you might want to trim the problem caps down to working with short segments due reduce processing(disk read/writes especially) time.

I don't have a link handy currently, but tssplitter.exe (freeware) will let you split TS's into any sort of sizes you want w/o "changing" anything in the TS ...

Given the issue seems to be with the audio stream, only other thing I can think of at this point I haven't already mentioned is that you might want to demux the elementary Video/Audio streams(you could use Video Redo to demux to the Es's, or a TS demuxer like Xport) and run the AC3 audio file through something that will analyze it, to see if there might be something odd going on you can spot ...

Only thing I've ever used like that for AC3 audio streams is Ac3fix or Besliced, and I haven't used anything other than ac3fixgui to check for/fix invalid frame length for a long time, so I don't remember, but I think for the most part all those will probably do is report and fix invalid frame length. Most other errors with AC3 streams(such as involving corrupted frames, audio timestamp gaps/etc) should be reported in MPEG2repair.

Well ... actually I lied ... If the "remuxing" *doesn't* work, and the issue is specific to the Audio stream, along the lines of the "transcoding" options you've talked about .... there is another thing I can think of at this point you could try --- it's starting to get a bit complicated though ... You could demux the elementary Video/audio streams, then *reencode* the audio stream (such as with Besweet), then Mux the video/audio streams, into say MPG file container ..... That should go pretty fast(you could use ffmepg or mplex to remux if you don't have anything else) ... Or, for a much "slower" option, this is getting even more complicated and I won't go into the "details" involved, and I don't know why you'd want to do this unless you wanted to resize/ and reencode to DVD video, or to keep it HD and reencode with AVC/AAC or VC-1 to improve efficiency to archive the material to say DVD+R, but you could also reencode both the video and audio ....

Hey guys,
We are testing a dual HD feed over the air feed today for WKBN and WYFX (27.1 & 27.2). Of course I'm fully aware of the hit in performance but I think it looks pretty good. I'd be interested in your opinions as to the tradeoff between the hit in performance and the ability to broadcast BOTH CBS and Fox in HD. No guarantees as to how long it will be up like this. I'm going to try and keep it at least through prime tonight depending on whether there are any problems reported to me. Right now CBS has college BB and Fox has Nascar. This is probably a fairly rigorous test for the stat muxing capabilities of my encoders. In other words, what you are seeing this afternoon will be quite representative of the worst case situation.

A bit off topic, but shouldn't have said this around nickdawg. Boy's gonna have a coronary. ;)

Thanks, Nitewatchman Jeff. I didn't mean to imply that the two options that I enumerated earlier were my only choices. Just that they were the most practical options at this point. The only other thing that might still be useful would be to find a way to determine exactly what "flaw" is causing the difficulty.

But, as you point out, there are plenty of ways for me to watch this content, so it's certainly not critical for me to solve this. There are LOTS of ways to recode and/or repackage the streams so that they play correctly on the PS3, and there are LOTS of ways to play them in their existing form using other players, both hardware and software. So basically, I think I've probably taken up enough of everyone's time with it.

I do know how to create short clips from the problem videos, so if I needed to submit an example to Sony, I could. But I really don't know how I'd go about reaching the right Sony people. I don't have much faith that their CSRs will be able to help much. It would be easier to reach the right people at WEWS, but I'm not sure that they have much incentive to worry about fixing this.

I agree with you that analyzing the audio stream would seem the most promising approach. Especially since the same failure occurs in both MPG and TP files. I have some of the tools that you mention, but not all of them. I know that some can be freely downloaded. But if you had the chance to run some of your tools against the files that Inundated posted, maybe you could spot something that I've overlooked.

Or alternatively, you could look over this four-second clip from my system: http://home.roadrunner.com/~gilliland/WEWS.tp

Hey guys,
We are testing a dual HD feed over the air feed today for WKBN and WYFX (27.1 & 27.2).


Wish I could check it out, but unfortunetly, even with some "tropo", I'd need WHIO-DT to go off air for that ;)

I may have sent you a DX reception report at one time, don't remember, but attached is a screenshot I took here several years ago of WKBN 27 analog - specifically, this is from 9/21/04, I think probably 2AM TOH ID (WKBN is 223 Miles from me, true azimuth bearing 62 degrees ....)

Sorry for the Mess (IMD+WBDT being N -1 etc), this was before I added some traps to knock down some of the dayton signals a bit ...

Mostly due to co-channel issues with locals (such as Cincy), I WEWS-DT 15 is the only Cleveland DT I've logged so far, BTW .... And that one is quite rare, with WPTD 16 being right next door ....

I've logged several other DT's over/up that way though, such as WDLI-DT, WFMJ-DT and KDKA-DT ...

I know that some can be freely downloaded. But if you had the chance to run some of your tools against the files that Inundated posted, maybe you could spot something that I've overlooked.

Or alternatively, you could look over this four-second clip from my system: http://home.roadrunner.com/~gilliland/WEWS.tp

Yes, I'd be glad to take a look at it. Downloading your file currently ... I'll let you know if I find anything (or not, and don't know, but I'm guessing it's probably going to be "not") ...

I'm on dial-up connection though, D/L your file will take about 30 minutes, so I can't do the 287MB file, or anything much longer than a few seconds from a ATSC TS(or tp) cap ...

I'm in rural area, no cable, the limited broadband options available are VERY expenisive currently and just not worth to me, as most of what I do on internet is text based, or involves downloads of less than 20MB or so, larger stuff I can do over night .... In other words, currently the way I look at it is, if it ain't less than $20 bucks a month or so (including after the 6 months of "introductory offers"), I'm not Interested/I'm not doing it ....

In any case, receiving/decoding WEWS via enhanced signal propagation is pretty rare here(receiving WQHS 61 or WJW 8 analogs is not all that rare however - In fact it's unusual they're not popping in and out "above the snow") , As I mentioned to WKBN chief in last post .... But, it *has* happened, so If I happen to looking in that direction at the right time and pull them in, and you're issue is still occuring I'll get a cap from them here .... If that happens though, it might be years from now, as I think I've only decoded them a couple of times since I first saw them in Late 2002 ...

Sorry Folks for the multiple posts ...

Or alternatively, you could look over this four-second clip from my system: http://home.roadrunner.com/~gilliland/WEWS.tp

Ok, I ran it through everything I could think of(including demuxing and checking audio files, and everything I suggested in earlier posts), and I could find no problems with it whatsoever. Doesn't necessarily mean there aren't any which I can't detect or "missed" putting 2+2 together about with the tools I'm using, or given the "shortness" of the clip, but I do think it says a lot that "common tools" don't seem to find any errors, and that this decodes just fine with other HW/SW, but presumably isn't (even for this 4 second clip for the audio) with the PS3 ...

Only oddity I notice was that WEWS has the bitrate info set wrong in a descriptor in PMT(~38Mb/s, which would be about the total bandwidth available in a entire 6MHZ channel with QAM, and of course it can't be much more than 18Mb/s for the video stream from a "ATSC station") , but that is very common and should not be a problem -- Most stations down here don't have this set right either, even for "OTA", I've seen it as high as 80 Mb/s ...

It also plays just fine (audio+video) in any media player I tried ... Most I have set up to use Cyberlink Decoders (audio+video), but it played fine with VLC and MPC's internal MPEG2 video/AC3 audio decoders as well.

Attached Zip file includes :

Tsreader HTML export info (Note: the TS file filter I used to open the file was "MyHD .TP Files(*.tp) ....

MPEG2repair logfile

I didn't see any point in including any other log files(such as from demuxers), as they indicate no errors or other useful information ...

------------

Best "guess" -- PS3 may have some issues/incompatibilities with demux of some ATSC compliant MPEG2-TS(since you said the same thing happend) and/or MyHD TP files ...

Is it because WEWS is doing something "wrong" ? could be I suppose, but I doubt it, and I don't know, but my best guess there is still that there just may be some weird "incompatibility" with what they're doing (or the way certian equipment on their end does things - Particularly perhaps regarding the Multiplexing or perhaps the AC3 audio encoding - latter seems unlikely to me though since if you remux it, with say TSmuxer, the audio encoding actually still stays the same) with the PS3 ... I'm sure however they might want to know about it ....

Let us know if you find out anything more !

Speaking of WEWS, their bug is crazy.

Remember my post about the lotto numbers not on analog? Sounds like technical problems is a realistic answer, after what I saw tonight.

I was watching "Desperate Housewives" and the local bug that came on screen after commercial breaks was strange at about 9:45. It was horizontally scrolling across the screen until it disappeared. Then, next commercial break, it was fine.



With the DTV date moving, I don't think the question is when they will sign off, but will they make it to that date? If their equipment keeps f'ing up, will they repair it? Should they, since analog is going away soon?

Ok, I ran it through everything I could think of(including demuxing and checking audio files, and everything I suggested in earlier posts), and I could find no problems with it whatsoever.

Only oddity I notice was that WEWS has the bitrate info set wrong in a descriptor in PMT(~38Mb/s, which would be about the total bandwidth available in a entire 6MHZ channel with QAM, and of course it can't be much more than 18Mb/s for the video stream from a "ATSC station") , but that is very common and should not be a problem -- Most stations down here don't have this set right either, even for "OTA", I've seen it as high as 80 Mb/s ...

Thanks for doing that for me. I really appreciate the confirmation. Keep in mind that the clip I posted DID come from a QAM cable broadcast, so the data rate may be correct for the stream as a whole. But if the PMT reflects just the WEWS stream, then that would certainly not be correct.

Let me know if there's an easy way to correct that info without changing the other aspects of the stream. Might be a worthwhile test if there's a simple way to accomplish it.

Bottom line, though - it looks like I either have to wait for Sony to continue to improve the PS3 firmware or choose a different way to watch these captures.

Speaking of WEWS, their bug is crazy.

Remember my post about the lotto numbers not on analog? Sounds like technical problems is a realistic answer, after what I saw tonight.

I was watching "Desperate Housewives" and the local bug that came on screen after commercial breaks was strange at about 9:45. It was horizontally scrolling across the screen until it disappeared. Then, next commercial break, it was fine.



With the DTV date moving, I don't think the question is when they will sign off, but will they make it to that date? If their equipment keeps f'ing up, will they repair it? Should they, since analog is going away soon?

sounds like someone forgot to system sync something
not a biggie,just relax...

Thanks for doing that for me.


No problem, and your welcome -- Although, I don't think I probably helped much, and probably just told you a lot of stuff you already knew, or maybe didn't want/need to know ;) ...

Keep in mind that the clip I posted DID come from a QAM cable broadcast, so the data rate may be correct for the stream as a whole. But if the PMT reflects just the WEWS stream, then that would certainly not be correct.

Let me know if there's an easy way to correct that info without changing the other aspects of the stream. Might be a worthwhile test if there's a simple way to accomplish it.


Well, that bitrate descriptor describes the max bitrate and is specific to the bitrate of only the elementary video stream which is relevant to that PMT(program map table) specific to that program(audio and video). For example, the bitrate info for the elementary AC3 audio stream in that PMT is set correctly, at 384Kb/s. Another program stream, or "subchannel" within the Transport stream would have a different PMT, and within the different PMT, different video/audio streams ...

Usually, what the cableco gets is the same Video and audio streams from the station (such as from WEWS) as OTA viewers get, from the same encoder at the station, and the cableco will Mux entire Transport streams from two HD stations into one channel and one single Transport stream. As the Max bitrate via OTA/ATSC (for everything, including PSIP) is 19.4mb/s, and the max bitrate via QAM256 is twice that. Among other things, PID's are usually renumbered from what is sent by the station OTA( and sorry, earlier I talked about the PID's being different from WEWS from the MPEG2 info you posted in an earlier post - presumably from a TS rather than a MyHD *.tp -- that's likely because of the PID's renumbered by the cableco) at the Cableco, and they also in some cases may strip out some of the streams(such as some or all of the PSIP, and in some cases insert different PSIP data, if any)/info the station sends them, as well as change some other info like some of the descriptors and info involved ...

And, I also said something else wrong(as I keep forgetting about the changes that occur or can occur for cable vs OTA), as the info in the MPEG2 video descriptor for WEWS's HD video stream in the PMT from your cap apparently doesn't match the same descriptor for WEWS Video stream sent OTA -- As The TSreader HTML export on Trip's site shows this for it :

MPEG Video: Bitrate 15.460 Mbps Resolution 1280 x 720p

Follows is link to that -- You can compare this to the info to the TSreader export info I attached to last message for your *tp file -- Note among other things, all the PSIP info(some of which isn't shown in the TSreader HTML export file - TVCT info is the only PSIP info shown from this cap) has been stripped for your TP file, as well as for instance the null packet stream for OTA - So that all you have is just what you "need" for the Video/Audio - again, if you had a "full TS" from the station, that's the same thing MPEG2repair does, but also with error checking :

http://www.rabbitears.info/screencaps/oh-clv/59441-0_0.htm

Unless something has changed since that cap, (probalby not) That(15.460 Mbps) is likely accurate for the Max bitrate they send for the HD video stream from them, for OTA and Including for what you're getting via QAM via cable.

In which case it's likely the cableco(some piece of equipment) has "inserted" that incorrect max bitrate info of 38.010Mb/s for their video stream ...

I don't know, but again, that shouldn't be a problem, and It's likely the case for other stations in your area as well. Only thing I've ever seen the info from that descriptor actually used for is by certian software to set a maximum mux rate, so that buffer underruns don't occur during a Mux. For example, in VideoRedo, it will "default" to using whatever that says, but in this case, if you are converting to another file format, you can manually change it to say, 15.5 or 16 MB/s .... Or, you could change it to 80Mb/s, and it will still work fine ... But, if you changed it to say 5Mb/s, Buffer Underruns are likely to occur ... In other words, as long as the bitrate "number" in that descriptor is the same, or higher than the actual maxbitrate of the Video stream, It should not be a problem for anything making "use" of the descriptor info ....

I don't know, but again, that shouldn't be a problem, and It's likely the case for other stations in your area as well.
It shouldn't be a problem, but if Sony PS3 looks at it and concludes "I can't support that data rate", then it might decide to put up the message "This content cannot be played."

Probably not, I agree, especially if this error is common. But it just seemed like an area in which someone could have made an error in the PS3 firmware.

But if the incorrect data was inserted by Time Warner, then it's definitely NOT the problem because the PS3 won't play recordings captured OTA either.

Anyway, thanks, it's quite an education. It sounds like there are a few additional tools that I should have in my arsenal, and I'm going to track down a few of them.

Jim Gilliland:
These are a list of the capture audio codecs on the MY HD card menu in my system:
1.....WMA VOICE ENCODER DMO
2.....WM SPEECH ENCODER DMO
3.....WM AUDIO ENCODER DMO
4.....NERO AUDIO ENCODER
5.....IMA ADPCM
6.....PCM
7.....MICROSOFT ADPCM
8.....ACELP.NET
9.....DSP GROUP TRUE SPEECH (TM)
10....WINDOWS MEDIA AUDIO V1
11....WINDOWS MEDIA AUDIO V2
12....GSM 6.10
13....MICROSOFT G.723.1
14....CCITT A-LAW
15....CCITT U-LAW
16....MPEG LAYER 3

Also unchecked is record without sound. This will probably add to your confusion.
JJK

Jim Gilliland:
These are a list of the capture audio codecs on the MY HD card menu in my system..... Also unchecked is record without sound. This will probably add to your confusion.
Thanks, though I'm not entirely sure how that information will help me. Or are you responding to something that I've forgotten that I asked? :):confused:

But if Sony PS3 looks at it and concludes "I can't support that data rate", then it might decide to put up the message "This content cannot be played."


Regardless of what that descriptor says, it's also the case MPEG2 video can be encoded with much higher max bitrate than that. There should be no reason why it wouldn't support higher bitrates, and I also just don't think it would be using that information in that way.

Here's an example (the bolded portion of the VideoRedoLog for a Demux to elementary video/audio streams of your sameple file) of how that bitrate descriptor info can be used :

2009-02-08 20:22:00 Bumping mux rate to: 40.000 Mbps to accomodate video bit rate of: 38.810
2009-02-08 20:22:00 Starting new Frame Accurate Output Segment: start:0.022 (00:00:00.00), end:4454.467 (00:00:04.27)
2009-02-08 20:22:04 Output complete. Input file: D:\wews\WEWS.tp
Output file: D:\wews\WEWSVRD.mpv
Mode: Frame Accurate
Video output frames: 223
Audio output frames: 117
Processing time (secs): 0
Processed frames/sec: 646.38
Actual Video Bitrate: 15.54 Mbps

----------------------

Anyway, I did some "googling" for "Error+80028801" and similar, and read through some of the reports from those getting that error -- While I didn't spend much time on it, and couldn't make much sense out of it, it appears folks are getting the issue regarding issues with playback involving various codecs, in some cases which didn't even involve MPEG2 TS, MPEG2 video or AC3 audio streams ...

Hey guys,
We are testing a dual HD feed over the air feed today for WKBN and WYFX (27.1 & 27.2). Of course I'm fully aware of the hit in performance but I think it looks pretty good. I'd be interested in your opinions as to the tradeoff between the hit in performance and the ability to broadcast BOTH CBS and Fox in HD. No guarantees as to how long it will be up like this. I'm going to try and keep it at least through prime tonight depending on whether there are any problems reported to me. Right now CBS has college BB and Fox has Nascar. This is probably a fairly rigorous test for the stat muxing capabilities of my encoders. In other words, what you are seeing this afternoon will be quite representative of the worst case situation.
Sorry I did not see this post until Monday, however I was watching WKBN-DT Sunday evening during 60 Minutes and the Grammys. If your test was still up, I can tell you that I saw no noticable problems other than the usual drop-outs I get from my location at the far edge of your service contour (i.e. Parma, about a mile south of the Cleveland towers). I'm using a Silver Sensor indoors and not near a window (which goes against what I preach here but my outdoor antenna got blown off course and I'm not about to go on the roof, I'm lucky to still get your signal that way, but fortunately I do still get virtually a 24/7 signal with the indoor antenna).

Do I have to do a rescan to get WYFX in HD?

Regardless of what that descriptor says, it's also the case MPEG2 video can be encoded with much higher max bitrate than that. There should be no reason why it wouldn't support higher bitrates, and I also just don't think it would be using that information in that way.

Anyway, I did some "googling" for "Error+80028801" and similar, and read through some of the reports from those getting that error -- While I didn't spend much time on it, and couldn't make much sense out of it, it appears folks are getting the issue regarding issues with playback involving various codecs, in some cases which didn't even involve MPEG2 TS, MPEG2 video or AC3 audio streams ...
You're probably right, thanks. And regarding the 80028801 error, yes, this code is the generic error that the PS3 puts up for any kind of content that it can't handle. So a Google search will definitely turn up countless examples that are largely unrelated to the specifics of my situation.

Just a little brow-raising bit I found out earlier here.

#1: I, too, see active SDV channels in this area just the same as nickdawg. Though I only have access to STOHD here, it has been switched to SDV. Primarily on the fact that it now tunes to the 585mhz QAM whereas before the channel used to sit up in the 600mhz range. Not including the fact it does list it as an SDV channel in diagnostics in comparison to a 'NON SDV' identification for everything else.

#2: Looking through the hardware diag on the HDC box here, I see a service application that reads 'SARA_TO_ODN_1_0_4'. My memory is fuzzy with the tons of posts in this thread on what the status of moving SARA people to Navigator has been, but there's at least one indication they are working on it and the SARA people have been another one of the big roadblocks for this SDV switch (aside from Comcast/Adelphia transitioning, Motorola equipment, and old Passport boxes which have already been switched over AFAIK).

Do I have to do a rescan to get WYFX in HD?

No, you shouldn't need to as WYFX has already been on 27.2. Just the video resolution of it and WKBN/27.1 have been changed. Most tv's should handle this without a problem or need of a rescan.

Just a little brow-raising bit I found out earlier here.

#1: I, too, see active SDV channels in this area just the same as nickdawg. Though I only have access to STOHD here, it has been switched to SDV. Primarily on the fact that it now tunes to the 585mhz QAM whereas before the channel used to sit up in the 600mhz range. Not including the fact it does list it as an SDV channel in diagnostics in comparison to a 'NON SDV' identification for everything else.

#2: Looking through the hardware diag on the HDC box here, I see a service application that reads 'SARA_TO_ODN_1_0_4'. My memory is fuzzy with the tons of posts in this thread on what the status of moving SARA people to Navigator has been, but there's at least one indication they are working on it and the SARA people have been another one of the big roadblocks for this SDV switch (aside from Comcast/Adelphia transitioning, Motorola equipment, and old Passport boxes which have already been switched over AFAIK).

Are you saying you previously had SARA? If you did, that's a huge, huge thing. You would be the first person I've seen anywhere who had SARA changed to Navigator.

I agree, I think the big stumbling box is SARA but that application is very interesting.

No. This is the same 'ol 8300HDC which came stock with Navigator. As far as I know, these boxes are designed with Navigator in mind. Now why this particular application is listed I have no clue aside from possibly they just push these service apps to all boxes and they determine whether the app needs to be run or not. But it's there and obviously TWC is pushing it to other systems.

Beyond the fact that I see this application name in there and the name insinuates the obvious, I have no idea what TW has up their sleeves as of this point.

No. This is the same 'ol 8300HDC which came stock with Navigator. As far as I know, these boxes are designed with Navigator in mind. Now why this particular application is listed I have no clue aside from possibly they just push these service apps to all boxes and they determine whether the app needs to be run or not. But it's there and obviously TWC is pushing it to other systems.

Beyond the fact that I see this application name in there and the name insinuates the obvious, I have no idea what TW has up their sleeves as of this point.

My next question to you then are you TW legacy, or ex Adelphia? Important due to the fact that the only areas of ex Adelphia to experience a change all had Passport previously.

Adelphia's old area consisted of several old cable companies, and Adelphia never bothered to put them on the same system. Hence TW's headache. That and the decision to also merge the Comcast areas in the purchase. I'm sure you're aware that the purchase was made with Comcast and Comcast likewise got TW areas.

Legacy area here. Been TW for as long as I care to remember. Probably mid-90s thereabouts which before then was TCI Cable.

On a real interesting but unrelated note: Shortly after TW bought TCI Cable in our area, they were real quick about putting in digital services even though they were limited to telco-return only. Up in the boonies of northern trumbull county known as Bristolville, we had ourselves a Motorola DCT-1200 around '98-99-00 which had a phone line hooked up all the time (though my mind is fuzzy, I swear they used some form of out-of-band signalling as I never remembered it interfering with the phone service and the box would outright shut off if you unplugged the phone line from the wall.), and we had certain digital services like non-scrambled pin-based PPV, digital music courtesy of what used to be DMX, and of course a decent selection of digital cable programming in addition to the analog lineup.

Back on the subject though, it's interesting because I have not been aware of any SARA equipment here in the legacy area. Before Navigator came into the picture, it's all been Passport equipment as far as I know. For as many people I know around here with digital services, I haven't come across a SARA box yet.

Legacy area here. Been TW for as long as I care to remember. Probably mid-90s thereabouts which before then was TCI Cable.

On a real interesting but unrelated note: Shortly after TW bought TCI Cable in our area, they were real quick about putting in digital services even though they were limited to telco-return only. Up in the boonies of northern trumbull county known as Bristolville, we had ourselves a Motorola DCT-1200 around '98-99-00 which had a phone line hooked up all the time (though my mind is fuzzy, I swear they used some form of out-of-band signalling as I never remembered it interfering with the phone service and the box would outright shut off if you unplugged the phone line from the wall.), and we had certain digital services like non-scrambled pin-based PPV, digital music courtesy of what used to be DMX, and of course a decent selection of digital cable programming in addition to the analog lineup.

Back on the subject though, it's interesting because I have not been aware of any SARA equipment here in the legacy area. Before Navigator came into the picture, it's all been Passport equipment as far as I know. For as many people I know around here with digital services, I haven't come across a SARA box yet.

Yeah that's what I thought. Now how that statement got in that box I don't know but I guarantee it wasn't a SARA box when you got it. I think that there is a possibility that the box may have been previously owned and perhaps turned in for replacement, and that's a good possibility because that particular box is a well known piece of garbage. Perhaps SA puts that statement in ex SARA boxes and ships them out with Navigator. I don't know.

If you say you got it brand spanking new in a box, then there would be no reason for that statement to be in there. Still, it's very curious.

Nope. This box we got brand new factory sealed. In fact they seem to be handing out new boxes more than 'returns' in this area. All of which are these 8300HDC's.

Like I said, it's probably a case of they are pushing these from the headend just like the rest of the software. In which case, considering the legacy area has been de-void of SARA equipment (someone correct me if I'm wrong. nickdawg? anyone?), logic would dictate this software is being pushed region-wide (legacy, adelphia, comcast, akron/canton, cleveland, youngstown/warren, etc.) which is just more ponderous.

I got home last night and found WYFX still in HD. Everything looks great here on both channels. I watched the tail end of the Obama news conference and parts of 24.

Keep in mind I'm watching downrezzed to SD so YMMV. However WYFX did not look like the typical subchannel. It looked as good as WKBN-DT on my set.

BTW skip was up last night, however insted of getting the other 2 Youngstown stations I got WFXP from Erie insted! This was with a Silver Sensor aimed East through the house.

Saw this and couldn't help thinking that this is what nickdawg would sound like without all the asterisks.:) Or maybe this is similar to what Hook's review of the SA8300 would be.:D

(Language warning - not for kids/work.) http://www.theonion.com/content/video/sony_releases_new_stupid_piece_of

Enjoy.

Saw this and couldn't help thinking that this is what nickdawg would sound like without all the asterisks.:) Or maybe this is similar to what Hook's review of the SA8300 would be.:D

(Language warning - not for kids/work.) http://www.theonion.com/content/video/sony_releases_new_stupid_piece_of

Enjoy.

ROFLMAO. I should mention here that TiVo also links right up to The Onion in the find programs menu.

Sony tried to compete once a long time ago but they bailed. This is really their second pos.:D

Truthfully it's good to see other companies manufacturing DVR's and giving people more choices then that pos SA 8300 HDC.

Actually the Sony HD DVR that has been discontinued is definitely not a pos but a very fine HD dvr with a 500 gig internal drive, free program guide, and no subscription fees. And it came out in January 2005, more than 18 months before the TIVO S3 debuted in September 2006. Unfortunately, for owners of the Sony like myself, Sony made the bad decision to no longer support it in the US. But it's really a great piece of equipment and still going strong outside the US. I also agree that it's great that other manufacturers have HD dvrs in the works for the future to be an alternative to the cable companies dvrs.

Actually the Sony HD DVR that has been discontinued is definitely not a pos but a very fine HD dvr with a 500 gig internal drive, free program guide, and no subscription fees. And it came out in January 2005, more than 18 months before the TIVO S3 debuted in September 2006. Unfortunately, for owners of the Sony like myself, Sony made the bad decision to no longer support it in the US. But it's really a great piece of equipment and still going strong outside the US. I also agree that it's great that other manufacturers have HD dvrs in the works for the future to be an alternative to the cable companies dvrs..

I wqs joking about the first DVR. I heard good things about the first one. But technically speaking it still can't hold a candle to the DVR that TiVo produces today, however it was ahead of it's time - and a good deal.

I also agree that it's great that other manufacturers have HD dvrs in the works for the future to be an alternative to the cable companies dvrs.

...Until that DVR is terribly outdated or the hard drive fails. And upgrade/repair is all on you.

At that time I'll be happily returning to TWC to get my **free** replacement.

Ad laughing at Hookbill as he chains the Tivo to the bumper and returns it to best by, hoping that warranty is still good! :D:D:D:D:D

I'll br \e looking out for those other HD Dvrs..Anything to save 8 bucks a month..

I'll br \e looking out for those other HD Dvrs..Anything to save 8 bucks a month..

You won't find a cheaper DVR then TW. Cheap on the wallet and cheap performance.

...Until that DVR is terribly outdated or the hard drive fails. And upgrade/repair is all on you.

At that time I'll be happily returning to TWC to get my **free** replacement.

Ad laughing at Hookbill as he chains the Tivo to the bumper and returns it to best by, hoping that warranty is still good! :D:D:D:D:D

You can always buy a new hard drive if that happens.

I'll br \e looking out for those other HD Dvrs..Anything to save 8 bucks a month..

The Sony DVR would be a nice option, especially if there was not a monthly service fee.

Tivo, on the other hand, not so nice. Expensive unit, plus monthly fees for its service.

Yes, you can get a new hard drive. But your shows are still lost. Plus, with TWC, the basic features across the 8000HD, 8300HD, 8300HDC, plus 8000 and 8300 SDTV models are the same.

With Tivo, they admitted straight up that their new features only work with the newer generation of HD boxes. And I'm sure the S3/HD units will be in the same boat as the S2 units soon. Just wait, the S4 will come out one day, with new features not available on the S3.

The SA boxes are really not that bad. They're really not. That's the one thing that keeps me away from other providers, fear of other generic equipment. If ATT Uverse used SA boxes with SARA, I would have switched yesterday. But instead, other providers seem to do their own thing. Dish's DVR, D* has its own kind of software, ATT, etc. I guess that's why TWC is doing it too---to compete.

I hate in-house developed software. Sitck to Passport or SARA.

You can always buy a new hard drive if that happens.

Notice the word BUY a new hard drive.

Not my favorite word. ;)

Saw this and couldn't help thinking that this is what nickdawg would sound like without all the asterisks.:) Or maybe this is similar to what Hook's review of the SA8300 would be.:D

(Language warning - not for kids/work.) http://www.theonion.com/content/video/sony_releases_new_stupid_piece_of

Enjoy.

HA! Good one. LOL

I dl it and will stream it to my PS3 for others to enjoy (assuming the PS3 will play it). :p

Notice the word BUY a new hard drive.

Not my favorite word. ;)

Well let me tell you how you buy YOUR DVR (rent). You pay 7.00 a month for service and 8.00 a month for the box I'm rounding off here. 15.00. 15.00 x 12 = 600.00 a year. Take that over a 3 year period and you've spent $1800.00.

And you still don't own it, all you have is a basic DVR that doesn't even have wifi capabilities. I have a 3 year service contract on my DVR so if the hard drive does go I get a new one, just like you and that cost me a whole 49.00 extra.

So your "inexpensive" DVR isn't as cheap as you think. In the long run my DVR is less expensive then yours. Don't even tell me about paying 800.00 for one, you can pick them up now for around 500.00. Add a 3 years of service, 200.00 or you can go lifetime for 300.00. Cable cards are 6.00 a pair per month.

You do the math.

Well let me tell you how you buy YOUR DVR (rent). You pay 7.00 a month for service and 8.00 a month for the box I'm rounding off here. 15.00. 15.00 x 12 = 600.00 a year. Take that over a 3 year period and you've spent $1800.00.

And you still don't own it, all you have is a basic DVR that doesn't even have wifi capabilities. I have a 3 year service contract on my DVR so if the hard drive does go I get a new one, just like you and that cost me a whole 49.00 extra.

So your "inexpensive" DVR isn't as cheap as you think. In the long run my DVR is less expensive then yours. Don't even tell me about paying 800.00 for one, you can pick them up now for around 500.00. Add a 3 years of service, 200.00 or you can go lifetime for 300.00. Cable cards are 6.00 a pair per month.

You do the math.

I think I'd do the math a bit differently. I'd remove $7 per month service as I'm sure Tivo charges a monthly service (dunno what it is, but I'd guess it's more than $7), so let's call the service a wash.

Then the $8 per month for the DVR compared to your $6 per month for two cables cards leaves a difference of $2 per month, $24 per year, $72 for three years. And I think this $24 per year is where nickdawg is saying he'd rather pay the $24 as his assurance that the box will be fixed or replaced should something go wrong, and that he could "upgrade" to the newer technology boxes should one come along (if ever). :confused:

I know Tivo is a much better platform and is well worth the $$$ to many, but I can see where nickdawg likes the rental program too.

By complete accident I heard a quick news story over FM radio in my car today (I *despise* most FM broadcasts, particularly here locally, hardly EVER listen to such crap).....:eek:

....anyway.....the story was that 40% of US TV broadcasters are going ahead with the Feb 17th transition date, according to FCC filings. :)
A much higher number than I expected, but good news nonetheless. ;)

I think I'd do the math a bit differently. I'd remove $7 per month service as I'm sure Tivo charges a monthly service (dunno what it is, but I'd guess it's more than $7), so let's call the service a wash.

Then the $8 per month for the DVR compared to your $6 per month for two cables cards leaves a difference of $2 per month, $24 per year, $72 for three years. And I think this $24 per year is where nickdawg is saying he'd rather pay the $24 as his assurance that the box will be fixed or replaced should something go wrong, and that he could "upgrade" to the newer technology boxes should one come along (if ever). :confused:

I know Tivo is a much better platform and is well worth the $$$ to many, but I can see where nickdawg likes the rental program too.

Well you're doing the math wrong. First, it's more then 8.00 I believe it's 12.95, but who would pay that when you can shell out 200.00 for 3 years? Or 300.00 for lifetime.

I think anyone who pays the 12.95 is foolish, it's well worth saving up the money for the longer subscriptions.

I understand how nickdawg feels, he's made that clear many, many times. I'm saying for an additional 50 bucks I got a 3 year expanded warranty, well worth the money, it basically gives me the same ability as he does of getting a replacement or having it fixed. And if it's not a hard drive problem I prefer getting it fixed, that way I wouldn't lose my recordings. You won't get that from TW's DVR, they only switch out the box.

Well you're doing the math wrong. First, it's more then 8.00 I believe it's 12.95, but who would pay that when you can shell out 200.00 for 3 years? Or 300.00 for lifetime.

I think anyone who pays the 12.95 is foolish, it's well worth saving up the money for the longer subscriptions.

I understand how nickdawg feels, he's made that clear many, many times. I'm saying for an additional 50 bucks I got a 3 year expanded warranty, well worth the money, it basically gives me the same ability as he does of getting a replacement or having it fixed. And if it's not a hard drive problem I prefer getting it fixed, that way I wouldn't lose my recordings. You won't get that from TW's DVR, they only switch out the box.

Well $200 for 3 years is $5.55 per month, so add $1.44 per month to nickdawgs plan. :)

I understand what you are saying and if I did Tivo I'd do the lifetime also. But it really boils down to $42 (approximate) per year difference to rent from TWC for the three year period you referenced. This isn't even comparing the upfront cash outlay to buy the Tivo. At $500 to buy the Tivo it will take nickdawg almost 12 years x the $42 annual premium to TWC to break even.

EDIT: I suppose if you buy at $500 and do the $300 lifetime = $800
Compared to TWC at $15 mo then your breakeven is 4.4 years. :)

EDIT II: Ah, but now we must factor in the $72 per year for the two cable cards on a Tivo, so now when is the break even point?
Two trains leave Chicago................... :)

Well $200 for 3 years is $5.55 per month, so add $1.44 per month to nickdawgs plan. :)

I understand what you are saying and if I did Tivo I'd do the lifetime also. But it really boils down to $42 (approximate) per year difference to rent from TWC for the three year period you referenced. This isn't even comparing the upfront cash outlay to buy the Tivo. At $500 to buy the Tivo it will take nickdawg almost 12 years x the $42 annual premium to TWC to break even.

EDIT: I suppose if you buy at $500 and do the $300 lifetime = $800
Compared to TWC at $15 mo then your breakeven is 4.4 years. :)


I don't understand how you come up with 42.00, but taking it at face value and also because I'm terrible at math I'll accept that. 42.00 is still 42.00 less.

The problem for most people is shelling out the starting amount. And as I've said many, many times, if your happy with your DVR there is no reason to change.

Well let me tell you how you buy YOUR DVR (rent). You pay 7.00 a month for service and 8.00 a month for the box I'm rounding off here. 15.00. 15.00 x 12 = 600.00 a year. Take that over a 3 year period and you've spent $1800.00......

$15.00 x 12 months = $180 per year

Not $600 per year :)

So I was just trying to come up with a more realistic way of comparing them. ;)

FWIW, on my WOW Digital Value plan, I get an SA3250 HD receiver included at no cost and the upgrade to the SA8300-HDC DVR is only $3.00 per month. That's $36.00 per year (or $120.00 per year in Hook dollars :)).

That being said, if I had to pay $12.95 per month, I would have never tried the DVR, or if I did, I would seriously evaluate buying my own equipment after a few months.

FWIW, on my WOW Digital Value plan, I get an SA3250 HD receiver included at no cost and the upgrade to the SA8300-HDC DVR is only $3.00 per month. That's $36.00 per year (or $120.00 per year in Hook dollars :)).

That being said, if I had to pay $12.95 per month, I would have never tried the DVR, or if I did, I would seriously evaluate buying my own equipment after a few months.

Are you in your first year? If you are and they are anything like TW (which I hope they arn't;)) it will go up.

I've observed many people talk about WOW. It seems like they are a better cable company, but IIRC they don't offer that much HD either.

TW sucks you in by giving you the DVR and service free for one year.

Are you in your first year? If you are and they are anything like TW (which I hope they arn't;)) it will go up.

I've observed many people talk about WOW. It seems like they are a better cable company, but IIRC they don't offer that much HD either.

TW sucks you in by giving you the DVR and service free for one year.

I think they are up to 25 HD ch's for the entry level HD pkg. Still not enough. :mad: And a large chunk of those (NFL, Big 10, FSN, SportsTime Ohio) I never watch.

http://www1.wowway.com/event/module/moduleKeyword/ChannelLineups/

What I don't know is whether they have done any SDV yet. As a side note they have added a TON of VOD stuff in the past few months.

I think they are up to 25 HD ch's for the entry level HD pkg. Still not enough. :mad: And a large chunk of those (NFL, Big 10, FSN, SportsTime Ohio) I never watch.

http://www1.wowway.com/event/module/moduleKeyword/ChannelLineups/

What I don't know is whether they have done any SDV yet. As a side note they have added a TON of VOD stuff in the past few months.

Hard to say if it's SDV. It looks like a lot more then I thought however. You're getting FX HD, I'm jealous!:mad:

If you have an SA 8300 you can get to your diagnostic screen by pressing select and holding it until a little envelope appears next to the clock, then press info. Actually I believe that will work on all SA boxes, even non DVR. Then you can look into your SDV diagnostics and figure out if you have it or not.

Well you're doing the math wrong. First, it's more then 8.00 I believe it's 12.95, but who would pay that when you can shell out 200.00 for 3 years? Or 300.00 for lifetime.

I think anyone who pays the 12.95 is foolish, it's well worth saving up the money for the longer subscriptions.

I understand how nickdawg feels, he's made that clear many, many times. I'm saying for an additional 50 bucks I got a 3 year expanded warranty, well worth the money, it basically gives me the same ability as he does of getting a replacement or having it fixed. And if it's not a hard drive problem I prefer getting it fixed, that way I wouldn't lose my recordings. You won't get that from TW's DVR, they only switch out the box.

Sorry, but I agree with Toby. Never will I pre-pay for this kind of service, especially three years(or a lifetime:eek::eek::eek:). You never know what's going to happen, will you move, change providers, etc. And some places don't have cable, meaning satellite or FIOS/Uverse would be required, making the Tivo you paid for LIFE useless. Plus, it's easy to get pissed with cable and want to switch, but that decision is made harder because of the $500 + $300 Lifetime Service Elephant in the room.

Also, I like TWC services. I'm finally happy (I know, I know) because I found Monk and Psych on the Entertainment on Demand category. It's in digital, bug and commercial free, and the PQ is a HELL of a lot better. When I blew it up to full 16:9, it ALMOST looked HD!! :cool::cool: Also, I'm awaiting for new services like Start Over and any future interactive or features added to Navigator. Passport even had a card games channel.

Plus, knowing how things usually work, the week after that three year warranty expires, the trouble would begin. At least I know with TWC, a replacement is free. Plus, those Tivos will be outdated, before the SA boxes are. Tivo just seems like a dick company that would practice planned obsolesence. I was it in that video you posted, the suit guy even said that the new search features won't work on the older S2 boxes. Which they still sell(or they did last time I was at BB). So some poor sucker who bought an S2 last year would already have to replace it to get new features which new equipment SHOULD be capable of.

I think they are up to 25 HD ch's for the entry level HD pkg. Still not enough. :mad: And a large chunk of those (NFL, Big 10, FSN, SportsTime Ohio) I never watch.

http://www1.wowway.com/event/module/moduleKeyword/ChannelLineups/

What I don't know is whether they have done any SDV yet. As a side note they have added a TON of VOD stuff in the past few months.

WOW LOL!! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Wow, as in even that list sucks. There's only two channels on that list I want, F/X and Discovery. Other than that, it's either the crap I already have or crap I could care less about having(eg. Fox "News", Disney, ABC Family). And no CNN? BOO!!:mad::mad::mad::mad:

Same crap we have, especially Big Ten network. That one pisses me off the most. When you're as bandwidth strapped as TWCNEO, how f**king STOOPID are you to add that channel??? Maybe the add the goddamn Golf channel in HD next. Whoop-dee-f**king-doo!!!:mad::mad::mad:

Are you in your first year? If you are and they are anything like TW (which I hope they arn't;)) it will go up.

I've observed many people talk about WOW. It seems like they are a better cable company, but IIRC they don't offer that much HD either.

TW sucks you in by giving you the DVR and service free for one year.
I've been a WOW customer for over 5 years. Whenever my current promotional plan is up, I call them up (friendly, English-speaking CSRs) and they roll-over current promotions and/or substitute new promotions that are available. They seem to get the fact that existing customers should be treated as well as new customers are treated.

Right now, for about $73/month (including taxes and fees) I get the Digital Value Package, 24 HD channels (25 channels on 2/17 when we get CW HD - WBNX), an HD DVR, and 8Mb Internet w/modem.

I did take a look to see what was out there in the fall, but anything comparable would be around $110 from TWC. If I went to satellite, any savings on the video would be eaten up by Internet service costs. Besides, I wouldn't think that any other provider has enough margin to compete with WOW's pricing enough for me to walk away from their ultra-reliable video/Internet service and top-notch customer support.

As for needing more HD, we really can't keep up with what we record right now, and I can rent plenty of Blu-ray disks for the difference in cost of moving to a provider with more HD.

haha you don't have WBNX!! :p

(from the person who doesn't even have 20 HD channels, regardless of how crummy they are!) :(

I've been a WOW customer for over 5 years. Whenever my current promotional plan is up, I call them up (friendly, English-speaking CSRs) and they roll-over current promotions and/or substitute new promotions that are available. They seem to get the fact that existing customers should be treated as well as new customers are treated.

Right now, for about $73/month (including taxes and fees) I get the Digital Value Package, 24 HD channels (25 channels on 2/17 when we get CW HD - WBNX), an HD DVR, and 8Mb Internet w/modem.

I did take a look to see what was out there in the fall, but anything comparable would be around $110 from TWC. If I went to satellite, any savings on the video would be eaten up by Internet service costs. Besides, I wouldn't think that any other provider has enough margin to compete with WOW's pricing enough for me to walk away from their ultra-reliable video/Internet service and top-notch customer support.

As for needing more HD, we really can't keep up with what we record right now, and I can rent plenty of Blu-ray disks for the difference in cost of moving to a provider with more HD.

While I'm not a WOW customer (nor can I be, they don't have serveice in COX territory) Ihave friends down the street that have it and they are very happy.

When a company is the "competition" they have to try harder, so you have to hand it to WOW for extending "introductory offers" beyond the original comittment. Dish Network (which is what I have) is the same way. I got $10 off per month for 12 months just for asking, it's a "loyalty" offer. Sure I had to commit to 24 months, but I've been with them since 1997 and am happy. It would take a severe change for the worse in service for me to even consider switching. This loyalty offer offset a price increase. I was able to avoid the last price increase by signing up for "DVR Advantage". Guess what? DVR advantage gave me another $3 off per month. That's a $13 credit per month! So now my bill went down $4.55 after the Feb. price increase. :cool:

Sorry, but I agree with Toby. Never will I pre-pay for this kind of service, especially three years(or a lifetime:eek::eek::eek:). You never know what's going to happen, will you move, change providers, etc. And some places don't have cable, meaning satellite or FIOS/Uverse would be required, making the Tivo you paid for LIFE useless. Plus, it's easy to get pissed with cable and want to switch, but that decision is made harder because of the $500 + $300 Lifetime Service Elephant in the room.

TiVo HD 250.00 + Lifetime 300.00 = 550.00

Cable DVR and service 15/month - cablecard 3/month = 12/month

Time to pay off TiVo 550/12 = 45 months

If you get pissed at cable and choose another provider or you want to upgrade to the newest TiVo amount of TiVo outlay you are almost guaranteed to recover from EBAY Craig's list is $300. So you must keep your TiVo for 1 year, (550-300) / 12 = 12 months, to not take a loss on the TiVo. Actually, a TiVo with lifetime is going for about $500 right so you are basically break even 6 months after you buy it.


Plus, knowing how things usually work, the week after that three year warranty expires, the trouble would begin. At least I know with TWC, a replacement is free. Plus, those Tivos will be outdated, before the SA boxes are. Tivo just seems like a dick company that would practice planned obsolesence. I was it in that video you posted, the suit guy even said that the new search features won't work on the older S2 boxes. Which they still sell(or they did last time I was at BB). So some poor sucker who bought an S2 last year would already have to replace it to get new features which new equipment SHOULD be capable of.

TiVo is the kind of company that has a cult like following because they do keep supporting their older models for years after they quit building them. The only time old boxes don't get new software is when they don't have the hardware to support the new features. The new TiVo search capability is just an upgrade of the TiVo swivel search that the S2 TiVo's can already do. The reason it isn't offered to S2 TiVos is because it is being designed to take advantage of High Definition resolution. S2 TiVo's cant do HD. I don't expect to get any additional features from a piece of hardware then it has at the time I buy it anything else is a bonus.

I gave up DirectTV a couple weeks ago because of a few reasons. Mainly the ability to bundle the cable and Internet bill and drop DSL and phone. Plus I wanted to be able to get a TiVo and have it record all my channels. I was kind of nervous about the TiVo and cablecard thing but decided it was worth a try. Anyway, I received excellent service from TWC. The installer showed up at 9AM and had the TiVos and Internet wired in less than 45 minutes (he had to run a new wire from the street). Then right as he was finishing up a supervisor came to install the cablecards. He said he had personally done 30 of them before and I believe him. He knew exactly what to do. He even knew to hang up on the first person he talked to when he called TWC to activate. He "accidentally" hung up and called right back in and got someone who knew how to make the cablecard happy. It took about 30 minutes to install a multistream cc in each of my TiVo HD's.

Either I got lucky are TWC is getting better. Very happy with both the cable and Internet service two weeks into it. I also don't care about the "150" HD channels I am missing with DirecTV since I only watch about 10 of them and TWC has the ones I watch.

Wow, you left Directv for TWC?? :confused:

I understand because I left D a few years back, but if I already had all the HD channels, I don't think I could do it. Especially since D* has CNN, USA, F/X.

I want those channels.

They're coming soon, since TWC is working on SDV.

If you're in Akron it is already active. but we have to wait for the bums in Cleveland before new channels are added.

Now I know why Cleveland sucks, hence my location(see left)!


nickdawg
Uranium Member

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: a stinking craphole that is too close to Cleveland!!!
Posts: 2,193

RonOhio I thought TiVo had a deal with D*. Heard anything about that?

RonOhio I thought TiVo had a deal with D*. Heard anything about that?
Last I heard was 1st half 2010. There has been nothing released on it lately. If it already existed it would have been hard for me to leave DirecTV. TiVo's track record is to strip out key features off is software when creating software for other service providers and if thats the case I made the right decision.

Wow, you left Directv for TWC?? :confused:

I understand because I left D a few years back, but if I already had all the HD channels, I don't think I could do it. Especially since D* has CNN, USA, F/X.

I want those channels.

Posts: 2,193

70% of my TV watching is local channels, 20% is local sports, and 10% is the rest of the HD channels. I was seriously considering going OTA and netflix only. The only thing that stopped me is that I do like sports so you have to have some type of pay tv to get those. I definitely look forward to getting those other HD channels some time this year but it wasn't a major factor in my decision.

If there were any way to get the local sports team in HD w/o cable or satellite then I would go OTA only.

I'm totally the opposite. I'd die with just OTA. There's too much I love on cable that I couldn't go without. Monk, Psych, Burn notice, In Plain Sight, Rescue Me, Always Sunny in Philadelphia, CNN-RIck Sanchez, Situation Room, Keith Olbermann, Rachel Maddow, Bill Maher on HBO, plus the other odd shows to kill time.

Although I'm sure you could get the season DVDs with many of those shows with Netflix, or even through Bit Torrent(which is how I plan on watching Rescue Me this season).

I'm anxiously awaitng more HD as the only cable HD channels I like are the ESPNs, STO during Indians season and Universal HD. 95 to 98% of my daily TV viewing is in SDTV. Only on days of sports events on ESPN or a good night in prime time do I get to see several hours of HD. So once we get CNN HD, USA HD, Discovery HD, etc my HD viewing will increase.

One thing you'll see is that most of what TWC currently offers is crap. HGTV, TNT, TBS, FOOD, A&E, HISTORY, HD THEATER, BIG TEN NET. Oh yeah, and FSN HD that broadcasts only a few hours a day. The rest of the time you get dramatic music and "FSN Ohio" on a blue screen. Nice. :rolleyes:

One area where TWC is finally good is that they carry all local HD channels. Something D* couldn't even do with SDTV.

RonOhio let me explain that nickdawg hates TiVo. I suspect that he is jealous because he is stuck with the inferior sa
S units. He is not very smart and you never know what side of the fence he is on. But he's our nicdawg and we love him anyway,

Somebody could give him a tivo and he would not use it.

It is my thought that CC installs usually go well, its like anything else. Only the cry babies who don't take a firm proactive stand that cause all the noise about a bad install. Most people are happy.

TiVo HD 250.00 + Lifetime 300.00 = 550.00

Cable DVR and service 15/month - cablecard 3/month = 12/month

Time to pay off TiVo 550/12 = 45 months

......


So my guesstimate of 4.4 years (based on higher purchase price) was pretty close. ;)

Each Tivo requires only a single cable card?

...............
Either I got lucky are TWC is getting better. Very happy with both the cable and Internet service two weeks into it. I also don't care about the "150" HD channels I am missing with DirecTV since I only watch about 10 of them and TWC has the ones I watch.

This is probably a typical usage pattern for most consumers, myself included. But I'd still prefer to be offered every possible ch in HD letting me decide which I choose to watch. If that means HD ch's like The Fishing ch and Golf ch and Cartoon Network have to coexist with the few ch's I would actually watch, so be it. :)

But being on a cable system I'll probably never see 150 HD ch's offered in my lifetime. :p

Each Tivo requires only a single cable card?

In TW's never ending effort to stick it to you, not exactly. All TiVo HD's will run on one M card or two S cards. Now it is my experience from talking to other TiVo owners locally that despite the fact that you ask for one M card they come out with two S cards.

Most people, myself included will settle for this just because they want to get their TiVo going, however some individuals use their own card when this happens. The Steve Fry card. And magically an M card shows up, just like that.

Getting cable cards installed is really simple but as reported earlier by RonOhio many people can have a nightmare experience by dealing with untrained techs, and people on the other end of the phone who have no idea what they are doing. Then there is the chance that human error gets involved, i.e. tech reads wrong number or headend person types in wrong number. In this situation headend will always tell the tech they got it right but that's not always the case.

So there is less chance of error with one card as opposed to two, plus you don't have to have the one card paired.

Unfortunately for the S3 owners, they only take the two S cards (or two M cards). S3 cannot run on one card alone. Well, it can if you only want to get one line of digital channels.

This is probably a typical usage pattern for most consumers, myself included. But I'd still prefer to be offered every possible ch in HD letting me decide which I choose to watch. If that means HD ch's like The Fishing ch and Golf ch and Cartoon Network have to coexist with the few ch's I would actually watch, so be it. :)

But being on a cable system I'll probably never see 150 HD ch's offered in my lifetime. :p

I agree also with RonOhio on this. Out of all my digital channels the only one I look at from time to time is probably Major League Baseball Network. If I got to put up with the other garbage then so be it.

After TW gets it's HD squared away I expect them to move a lot of that stuff to their Sports Tier, which you will be able to purchase for just $7.50 a month.:rolleyes: No thank you, unless they are real cruel and move STO and ESPN over there as well.

I've got 3 channels I want in HD: USA, FX, and SciFi. Maybe TNT, and TrueTV. Heck my wife wants the shopping channels in HD.:eek:

In TW's never ending effort to stick it to you, not exactly. All TiVo HD's will run on one M card or two S cards. Now it is my experience from talking to other TiVo owners locally that despite the fact that you ask for one M card they come out with two S cards.

Most people, myself included will settle for this just because they want to get their TiVo going, however some individuals use their own card when this happens. The Steve Fry card. And magically an M card shows up, just like that.

Getting cable cards installed is really simple but as reported earlier by RonOhio many people can have a nightmare experience by dealing with untrained techs, and people on the other end of the phone who have no idea what they are doing. Then there is the chance that human error gets involved, i.e. tech reads wrong number or headend person types in wrong number. In this situation headend will always tell the tech they got it right but that's not always the case.

So there is less chance of error with one card as opposed to two, plus you don't have to have the one card paired.

Unfortunately for the S3 owners, they only take the two S cards (or two M cards). S3 cannot run on one card alone. Well, it can if you only want to get one line of digital channels.

When I set up my install I specifically asked them to bring 2 M cards out and they said they didn't have any of those so I said bring out 4 cards and a couple extra in case those don't work. When the installer came he again asked me what I needed and I said either 2 M cards or 4 S cards and he phoned that into his supervisor. The supervisor showed up with 2 M cards and 4 S cards looked at my TiVo and said you only need 2 M cards. I think they are on the right track by only allowing more experienced personnel to install the cablecards. Not because it is hard but because they don't do it allot and they dont gear their training for it. The supervisor knew exactly what to look for to ensure the cards were paired properly and how long it would take. I was prepared to settle for S cards if thats what they brought and pay the extra 6/month for 2 cards I didn't need but am glad I didn't have to.

When I set up my install I specifically asked them to bring 2 M cards out and they said they didn't have any of those so I said bring out 4 cards and a couple extra in case those don't work. When the installer came he again asked me what I needed and I said either 2 M cards or 4 S cards and he phoned that into his supervisor. The supervisor showed up with 2 M cards and 4 S cards looked at my TiVo and said you only need 2 M cards. I think they are on the right track by only allowing more experienced personnel to install the cablecards. Not because it is hard but because they don't do it allot and they dont gear their training for it. The supervisor knew exactly what to look for to ensure the cards were paired properly and how long it would take. I was prepared to settle for S cards if thats what they brought and pay the extra 6/month for 2 cards I didn't need but am glad I didn't have to.

Did you set up two TiVo's? You must have if you had 2 M cards and 4 S cards, or just one and you had them bring an extra?

Reason I ask because you said you got 2 M cards and you stated the above in bold.. If he paired them or installed 2 S cards, that was not done correctly. And since there are only 2 slots on a TiVo maybe you got two TiVo's?:confused:

I've got 3 channels I want in HD: USA, FX, and SciFi. Maybe TNT, and TrueTV. Heck my wife wants the shopping channels in HD.:eek:

why would you want to watch truTV in HD ( that's a mouthful)
HD isn't going to make 6th generation VHS crusiercam footage look any better ;)

why would you want to watch truTV in HD ( that's a mouthful)
HD isn't going to make 6th generation VHS crusiercam footage look any better ;)

Did you notice I said "Maybe"?:rolleyes:

why would you want to watch truTV in HD ( that's a mouthful)
HD isn't going to make 6th generation VHS crusiercam footage look any better ;)

True (no pun intended). But then we'd be ready for the next O.J. trial to be in HD! :D

Did you set up two TiVo's? You must have if you had 2 M cards and 4 S cards, or just one and you had them bring an extra?

Reason I ask because you said you got 2 M cards and you stated the above in bold.. If he paired them or installed 2 S cards, that was not done correctly. And since there are only 2 slots on a TiVo maybe you got two TiVo's?:confused:

Yes, 2 TiVo's.

Is WKYC going to UHF 17 on Feb. 17 as planned, or does it have to wait until June 17 now?

Is Fox 8 going to start sending its HD signal out on VHF 8 on Feb. 17 on or June 17?

Are 27-1 and 27-2 both still in HD ? If Fox 8 goes to VHF 8, 27-2 may be the only way to pick up FOX programming in HD for many of us with rabbit ears or who live south of Cleveland.

What is this SDV that people keep referring to ?

Short answer: Basically, nobody's going to turn off analog on Tuesday in the Cleveland or Youngstown markets. (Well, 67 is, but they don't count, and 45 already has.)

3 won't be able to move to digital 3 until 17 (TBN) in Canton signs off. They aren't going early, either. Oh, and they haven't finished their new tower yet.

8 could presumably go to digital 8 early, but has made a decision to wait.

Is WKYC going to UHF 17 on Feb. 17 as planned, or does it have to wait until June 17 now?

Is Fox 8 going to start sending its HD signal out on VHF 8 on Feb. 17 on or June 17?

Are 27-1 and 27-2 both still in HD ? If Fox 8 goes to VHF 8, 27-2 may be the only way to pick up FOX programming in HD for many of us with rabbit ears or who live south of Cleveland.

What is this SDV that people keep referring to ?

SDV
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched_video

Did anyone else with an 8300HD (not 8300HDC) box get an update of navigator last night? My box shut off and went through a download looking stage for about 15 minutes. Nothing really appears to be different, except the color scheme. The guide and other screens are not as "blue" as they used to be. Which seems beyond stupid that TWC would be wasting time changing the color scheme(something the end user could do on their own with the original version of Passport from around 2000).

I can confirm that TW in NEO tries to give you s-cards (presumably for the additional billing opportunity) but I did NOT have a supervisor come out. Maybe that's something new they've started? It's kind of moot for me, I guess, since I went to Dish and sold the Tivo, but I really would love to see Tivos (and competing devices, the more the merrier!) sold and able to work with all kinds of TV service.

That said, I'm quite happy with Dish at the moment, especially now that I've got my antenna set up to pick up WKYC, WOIO, WVIZ, WEWS and WJW successfully!

8 could presumably go to digital 8 early, but has made a decision to wait.

I just read at OMW that WJW and WVPX **may** consider another early shutoff date.

Stations may still ask to switch early, but not before March 14, because of a requirement to give viewers 30 days* notice. Only WJW Channel 8 and (WVPX) Channel 23 said they are considering that option.

That makes sense to us.

WJW and WVPX are the two local stations which will land on their old analog frequencies when the transition is complete.

WJW will move digitally from channel 31 to channel 8, and WVPX will "flash cut", replacing the current analog 23 with digital 23.

If WJW decides to take "option B", and file after March 14th for an earlier-than-June 12th flash cut, they have an ace in their pocket...the FCC has, it appears, approved their STA request to move to post-transition digital facilities before June 12th.

That request was filed with the intent on making the switch next Tuesday, but we presume its status would allow WJW to file in mid-March - if it wished to do so - solely by submitting a new silent notification...the same one it decided not to file this time around.

WVPX parent Ion has announced a new HD feed of its Ion main programming channel, though Cleveland is not in the first list of markets where Ion HD will debut - for obvious reasons. But we presume they want the ability to launch it the digital signal here at some point...since there has never been a digital feed of WVPX...

http://ohiomedia.blogspot.com/2009/02/mixing-it-up.html

I just read at OMW that WJW and WVPX **may** consider another early shutoff date.

Just when you think the scorecard is set...

Hi, just checked the TWC-NEO website:

On 2/17/09, CNBC World will be dropped from the line-up, and replaced with Chiller. Primetime On Demand will be added to the line-up on, or after, February 18, 2009. At America’s Auction Network’s request, they will be dropped from the line-up on 2/20/09. On 3/5/09, National Geographic On Demand will cease to exist as a separate channel. Its programming will move to News & World On Demand. On, or after, March 15, 2009, the following services will be added to Standard HD: Palladia HD, Discovery HD, USA HD, Sci-Fi HD, and Disney HD.

Enjoy!

Hi, just checked the TWC-NEO website:

On 2/17/09, CNBC World will be dropped from the line-up, and replaced with Chiller. Primetime On Demand will be added to the line-up on, or after, February 18, 2009. At America’s Auction Network’s request, they will be dropped from the line-up on 2/20/09. On 3/5/09, National Geographic On Demand will cease to exist as a separate channel. Its programming will move to News & World On Demand. On, or after, March 15, 2009, the following services will be added to Standard HD: Palladia HD, Discovery HD, USA HD, Sci-Fi HD, and Disney HD.

Enjoy!

SciFi HD and USA HD. Now all I need is FX. HIP HIP, HOORAY!!!!!!

Ok, nickdawg you may be right. I wonder if they will have SDV for us by then?

Did anyone else with an 8300HD (not 8300HDC) box get an update of navigator last night? My box shut off and went through a download looking stage for about 15 minutes. Nothing really appears to be different, except the color scheme. The guide and other screens are not as "blue" as they used to be. Which seems beyond stupid that TWC would be wasting time changing the color scheme(something the end user could do on their own with the original version of Passport from around 2000).

Lot's of power outages last night! Heck it was blowing 78 MPH out at Cleveland's water crib. Our lights went out for 1 second, but the 8300 was off for a long time.

I don't see anything like that at TW's site. Himey67, do you want to provide a link? It's not in their HD section, nor is it on the front page.

And according to your post they are leaving a lot of wiggle room for those HD channels. On or after March 15. Figure 6 months later and why that brings us to just about Autumn.:)

I was intriqued and checked for evidence of TWC finally giving us in NEO some long awaited HD. Here's the link:
http://www.timewarnercable.com/northeastohio/learn/programming/whatsontv/programmingnotices.html

Actual quote: "On 2/17/09, CNBC World will be dropped from the line-up, and replaced with Chiller. Primetime On Demand will be added to the line-up on, or after, February 18, 2009. At America’s Auction Network’s request, they will be dropped from the line-up on 2/20/09. On 3/5/09, National Geographic On Demand will cease to exist as a separate channel. Its programming will move to News & World On Demand. On, or after, March 15, 2009, the following services will be added to Standard HD: Palladia HD, Discovery HD, USA HD, Sci-Fi HD, and Disney HD."

Wooooooah. o.o Pinch me, must be dreaming. Discovery AND USA in HD?

Wooooooah. o.o Pinch me, must be dreaming. Discovery AND USA in HD?

I'll pinch you when it happens. If it happens.:)

Fair enough. Though now that TWNEO has let that cat out of the bag, it'd be pretty hard for them not to give it to us. That is unless they prefer an en-masse defection from a large chunk of their pissed off customer base. ;)

Fair enough. Though now that TWNEO has let that cat out of the bag, it'd be pretty hard for them not to give it to us. That is unless they prefer an en-masse defection from a large chunk of their pissed off customer base. ;)

I have no doubt they will deliver. The question is when.

I don't see anything like that at TW's site. Himey67, do you want to provide a link? It's not in their HD section, nor is it on the front page.

And according to your post they are leaving a lot of wiggle room for those HD channels. On or after March 15. Figure 6 months later and why that brings us to just about Autumn.:)

Pay up. Remember the "cyber bet"? I want a "Nickdawg is a good guy who knows what he's talking about".

Pay up. Remember the "cyber bet"? I want a "Nickdawg is a good guy who knows what he's talking about".

No way, Jose. You better watch what you're smokin' at night bud.;)

IF by April 1 (that's how long you said and I'm being generous) TW puts HD AND SDV in my area, then I lose the bet. Until then you just sit and wait and we will see who wins.

I'll tell you what. I think they have the bandwith right now to add those HD channels so I'm not surprised they announced it. But you don't win anything unless those two conditions happen.

Also I have to receive my tuning adapter. (Naw, just kidding).:)

If it does happen I'll admit you were right. Hey, consider yourself lucky I'm buying into this story about you having SDV right now.:p

SDV kind of sounds like a disease, doesn't it?:D:D

If it does happen I'll admit you were right. Hey, consider yourself lucky I'm buying into this story about you having SDV right now.:p

SDV kind of sounds like a disease, doesn't it?:D:D

After my box rebooted last night, I was flipping through the channels. When I came to STO HD, there was a blue screen on and it said "Please Wait". It has to be SDV since it had to load(after rebooting). Well that and the fact the Diagnostic screen says "SDV" on STO HD and other channels say "NOT SDV".
DO I have to make it any clearer than that? :p

No way, Jose. You better watch what you're smokin' at night bud.;)

IF by April 1 (that's how long you said and I'm being generous) TW puts HD AND SDV in my area, then I lose the bet. Until then you just sit and wait and we will see who wins.


Oh, it has to happen in your area? :confused::confused::confused: Why would that affect me in any way? If it happens in MY area, then I'll win. It's not that YOU have all the channels, it is the fact they are added SOMEWHERE.

I'll tell you what. I think they have the bandwith right now to add those HD channels so I'm not surprised they announced it. But you don't win anything unless those two conditions happen.

Also I have to receive my tuning adapter. (Naw, just kidding).:)



Maybe Mr. "My Name Sounds Like *******" read our comments on OMW about the space left and they are adding channels? :confused: I can't wait to see if these will be SDV or not.

Oh, it has to happen in your area? :confused::confused::confused: Why would that affect me in any way? If it happens in MY area, then I'll win. It's not that YOU have all the channels, it is the fact they are added SOMEWHERE.

Wooooooah. o.o Pinch me, must be dreaming. Discovery AND USA in HD?

Don't get too excited - the announcement does say "on or after"...

On or after Feb 13, I will post the root passwords to my UNIX boxes on this forum... :)

Don't get too excited - the announcement does say "on or after"...

On or after Feb 13, I will post the root passwords to my UNIX boxes on this forum... :)

Well like I said in reply to hookbill: If they decide to continue to drag their feet on it even after setting that loose date, I'd wager they'd start losing quite a number of customers who have been impatiently waiting for more HD offerings since the dawn of civilization. So it'd be in their best interest to be as prompt as possible on that.

I mean, I wouldn't mind if it got delayed to like April or even May. But having an idea that they ARE working on it and going to get it here SOON is better than nothing at all.

Can anyone recommend an outdoor TV antenna installer in the Akron area please
Dave

Did anyone else with an 8300HD (not 8300HDC) box get an update of navigator last night? My box shut off and went through a download looking stage for about 15 minutes. Nothing really appears to be different, except the color scheme. The guide and other screens are not as "blue" as they used to be. Which seems beyond stupid that TWC would be wasting time changing the color scheme(something the end user could do on their own with the original version of Passport from around 2000).

My non-HD box was updated too. New color scheme. Other than that nothing new, it's still slow as hell.

I checked my SA 4250 box today. If there was an update I didn't see it. Correct me if I'm wrong nickdawg, but I think you said that STO was on SDV. I put my 4250 box on that channel and looked at the diagnostic screen. It didn't look any different then channel 23 or whatever channel it opens on. Still SARA software.

I do see one spot that say's it's "ready" for SDV but that's been there for a long time now. I really don't see what can be holding them up other then the SARA to Navigator thing. They must have a reason, but who knows what it is.

Sony's newest product might help with the problem:
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/sony_releases_new_stupid_piece_of?utm_source=EMTF_Onion

Sony's newest product might help with the problem:
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/sony_releases_new_stupid_piece_of?utm_source=EMTF_Onion

Yeah, Yeah. We saw that a few pages back.:)

Sony's newest product might help with the problem:
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/sony_releases_new_stupid_piece_of?utm_source=EMTF_Onion

And my Sony PS3 won't play it. :eek:

I checked my SA 4250 box today. If there was an update I didn't see it. Correct me if I'm wrong nickdawg, but I think you said that STO was on SDV. I put my 4250 box on that channel and looked at the diagnostic screen. It didn't look any different then channel 23 or whatever channel it opens on. Still SARA software.

I do see one spot that say's it's "ready" for SDV but that's been there for a long time now. I really don't see what can be holding them up other then the SARA to Navigator thing. They must have a reason, but who knows what it is.

What do you mean by "ready for SDV"? Does it say SDV is enabled or list a frequency?

When it first started here, there were no channels on SDV, but it did say it was "enabled". Once that is set, then they start adding channels.

My non-HD box was updated too. New color scheme. Other than that nothing new, it's still slow as hell.

Is it a DVR or a non DVR box?

My 8300HD was updated. Still the same speed(which is fantastic, runs circles around the OCRAP box)!

Also, the change is supposed to be on OCAP boxes. Look for it in the coming days/weeks. I like the new color scheme. It is less abrasive on the eyes that that bright blue-on-blue-on-blue-on-blue scheme. Plus this version is supposed to open the door to more new features like Start Over and something about remote DVR.
http://www.timewarnercable.com/northeastohio/learn/cable/navigator/default.html

What do you mean by "ready for SDV"? Does it say SDV is enabled or list a frequency?

When it first started here, there were no channels on SDV, but it did say it was "enabled". Once that is set, then they start adding channels.

I'm just telling you what it says. Everything else is either 0 or no. And it's always been like that.

Hey, it's SARA it's not the same as yours.

Here is something to think about. Just about two and a half months ago, TWC in Columbus had roughly the same amount of HD as NE Ohio. About the end of Dec the got a few new channels then in Jan they received more. Right now they have about twenty-five more HD then we do, including Fox News, CNN, CNBC, Travel, Bio, Bravo, FX, Hallmark, Speed, National Geographic, Animal Planet, Tlc, Disney, Disney XD, ABC Family, MLB, USA, Scifi, Palladia, Science, and a few more. I hope we ramp up as quickly as they did.

Here is something to think about. Just about two and a half months ago, TWC in Columbus had roughly the same amount of HD as NE Ohio. About the end of Dec the got a few new channels then in Jan they received more. Right now they have about twenty-five more HD then we do, including Fox News, CNN, CNBC, Travel, Bio, Bravo, FX, Hallmark, Speed, National Geographic, Animal Planet, Tlc, Disney, Disney XD, ABC Family, MLB, USA, Scifi, Palladia, Science, and a few more. I hope we ramp up as quickly as they did.

What you fail to see here is the fact that they still have not totally unified the system. We need SDV to be able to do that and they simply have not provided SDV to everyone yet. The problem appears to be converting old Adelphia on SARA.

That is why the date for the additional channels is set for "on or after March 15." They had to leave room in case they need additional time.

Yeah. Sadly I have to agree with hookbill on this one. Here in the TWNEO region, we have our own unique set of problems which dictates how all this stuff takes place and is planned out. You really can't go comparing how other regions have done this stuff when trying to determine what will happen here.

Though considering all the current indicators out there, it seems like they are actively putting their backs into getting everything converted and unified currently, I have faith that we'll start getting more HD offerings in due time. We have Mr. Jasco explaining that they plan to get this stuff going by summer some time, we have indicators that SDV is slowly being implemented system-wide, my investigation seeing 'shims' pushed out into the system to migrate SARA boxes over to Navigator. They're working on it for sure. But as with all things, it'll take time.

One thing that I am hoping for though is that we get as much new channels as they have in TWC in Columbus. Or even WOW for that matter. Wait, take that back. WOW still doesn't have USA in HD. Scrap that.

What you fail to see here is the fact that they still have not totally unified the system. We need SDV to be able to do that and they simply have not provided SDV to everyone yet. The problem appears to be converting old Adelphia on SARA.

That is why the date for the additional channels is set for "on or after March 15." They had to leave room in case they need additional time.

I hear ya. I'm just thinking that when they add the five they've advertised, if they are sdv, then they should be able to add many more since then sdv is obviously working and the limit should be quite high.

Wait a minute, I'm confused. You think they are going to install Navigator BEFORE SDV? Why? SARA is SDV capable. Remember that.

So to add Navigator before SDV would be beyond stupid. Especially since they're downloading updates for Navigator in the areas that already have it.

But this is TWC, so who the hell really knows!!! ;) :rolleyes:

Nickdawg, you forget they want a unified system all across NEO. Not to mention there are other features they are adding that DONT work with anything but Navigator like Startover (afaik, Passport and Navigator are the only capable systems and Passport has largely been phased out already) and some other unique applications.

I just saw a commercial. "Rescue Me" fans, new episodes begin in April.

Think TWC will F/X by then?

haha, probably not!! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Nickdawg, you forget they want a unified system all across NEO. Not to mention there are other features they are adding that DONT work with anything but Navigator like Startover (afaik, Passport and Navigator are the only capable systems and Passport has largely been phased out already) and some other unique applications.

But Start Over and Navigator are not necessary for HD channels and SDV.

They're main concern right now should be a UNIFIED system with 30+ HD channels. THEN, they can work on Navigator, Start Over, etc. What's the point of Navigator and Start Over if you lose a large portion of your customers?

But Start Over and Navigator are not necessary for HD channels and SDV.

They're main concern right now should be a UNIFIED system with 30+ HD channels. THEN, they can work on Navigator, Start Over, etc. What's the point of Navigator and Start Over if you lose a large portion of your customers?


If they could do that I would think they would.

We've already seen exAdelphia on Passport previously. This Adelphia system is a mess. It's really just a bunch of smaller cable systems.

nickdawg they may not have to give us SDV to give us those channels. I'll betcha a cyber dollar they got room for it now.

Still you got to understand. Being on the same system is not having a bunch of people with Navigator and a bunch with SARA. TW has to have an extra guide for the SARA people, and afaik they still can't program their DVR's to first run only. That's not SARA's fault, that has to do with the guide. SARA is suppose to be able to do that if the guide provides.

But then again SARA did diddly when I had it....as you well know.;)

Though considering all the current indicators out there, it seems like they are actively putting their backs into getting everything converted and unified currently, I have faith that we'll start getting more HD offerings in due time. We have Mr. Jasco explaining that they plan to get this stuff going by summer some time, we have indicators that SDV is slowly being implemented system-wide, my investigation seeing 'shims' pushed out into the system to migrate SARA boxes over to Navigator. They're working on it for sure. But as with all things, it'll take time.

One thing that I am hoping for though is that we get as much new channels as they have in TWC in Columbus. Or even WOW for that matter. Wait, take that back. WOW still doesn't have USA in HD. Scrap that.

Vchat, WOW has USA, and FX in HD.

No I don't have the link but somebody posted a link earlier and I told them I was jealous.;)

Hey what's this thing about Jasco and Summer. He said mid March. Has he said something else recently?

I'm still sticking with my Fall prediction for SDV for us!

Sorry nickdawg. I really hope I'm wrong this time.

Vchat, WOW has USA, and FX in HD.

Well all I know is my brother in Columbus who has WOW service still doesn't have USA in HD yet even though they have added just about everything else under the sun like FX, Disney, CNBC, etc.. I dunno if that's changed in the past month or two, but that's the way it has been every time I visit. *shrug*

Hey what's this thing about Jasco and Summer. He said mid March. Has he said something else recently?Sorry, I was merely going by fuzzy memory on that and just threw out a general 'by Summer' guess. In all honesty though, that'd probably be accurate. I put my money on sometime by June for the majority of all this to be finished. Though all I care about is at least getting a few extra HD channels and USA and Discovery will sure suffice me for a while. :D Gimme Burn Notice, SVU reruns, Psych, Myhtbusters, Dirty Jobs, and Smash Lab (when they come back from hiatus) in HD. *drool*

Gimme Burn Notice, SVU reruns, Psych, Myhtbusters, Dirty Jobs, and Smash Lab (when they come back from hiatus) in HD. *drool*

I'm gonna let you in on a little secret about Psych and Burn Notice:
Stop watching them on the regular USA channel. Look for Entertainment On Demand. There's a category called "USA". They have the most recent episodes of Monk, Psych and Burn Notice. Commercial free, bug/screen crap free, and the picture quality is 100% better than the regular USA channel.

I just finished watching Psych, to hell with HD, (high quality)digital blown up to full screen 16:9 is good enough!! :D:D:D

If only we'd get "Discovery On Demand"!

I'm gonna let you in on a little secret about Psych and Burn Notice:
Stop watching them on the regular USA channel. Look for Entertainment On Demand. There's a category called "USA". They have the most recent episodes of Monk, Psych and Burn Notice. Commercial free, bug/screen crap free, and the picture quality is 100% better than the regular USA channel.

I just finished watching Psych, to hell with HD, (high quality)digital blown up to full screen 16:9 is good enough!! :D:D:D

If only we'd get "Discovery On Demand"!

This is what makes you and I so different. You are not truly a fan of HD. You don't even use your DVR. You probably channel surf. Nothing wrong with that it just explains why we argue (respectfully) so much.:)

This is what makes you and I so different. You are not truly a fan of HD. You don't even use your DVR. You probably channel surf. Nothing wrong with that it just explains why we argue (respectfully) so much.:)

Okaaaaaay? :confused::confused::confused:

Like I said, why would I use my DVR to record an awful looking show when I could watch it much better on VOD? Plus not have to skip commercials, put up with on screen distractions during the show and get to see the real studio credits?

You're probably jealous because you cannot access VOD.

I'm really hoping a F/X VOD comes soon. So I don't have to BT every episode of Rescue Me.

F/X HD is nice. :D:D:D:D

Vchat, WOW has USA, and FX in HD.

No I don't have the link but somebody posted a link earlier and I told them I was jealous.;)..............

WOW Cleveland Lineup = 25 HD ch's on the first HD tier
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15795884&postcount=17110

Certainly TWC locally must have near that amount, no?

Well, Cleveland I didn't know about and certainly didn't realize WOW even offered cable service up there. I've only known them to be limited to the Columbus service area for the most part. But guess I learn something new every day. :)

FWIW, including the somewhat 'baffling' HD lineup where the majority of the channels do more stretchovision content than what they could offer with native HD content, they also still seem to be running SARA down in the Columbus area with a pretty 90s looking GUI and REAL slow software. Brother has an SA8300HD running SARA and I swear on the holy bible itself that it makes Navigator on the 8300HDC feel extremely responsive.

Nut surprised. SARA on a DVR sucks.

Well, Cleveland I didn't know about and certainly didn't realize WOW even offered cable service up there. I've only known them to be limited to the Columbus service area for the most part. But guess I learn something new every day. :)

FWIW, including the somewhat 'baffling' HD lineup where the majority of the channels do more stretchovision content than what they could offer with native HD content, they also still seem to be running SARA down in the Columbus area with a pretty 90s looking GUI and REAL slow software. Brother has an SA8300HD running SARA and I swear on the holy bible itself that it makes Navigator on the 8300HDC feel extremely responsive.

MORNIN'

*pours Vchat and hook a cup of JAVA* Cream? Sugar? :D

We also use the 8300HD DVR's for WOW in Cleveland. I'd bet they use the same hardware & software statewide, maybe system wide.

I'll check the SARA/Navigator if you like, but I'll need the dummies guide to do it as I've never messed with the cable box service menus before. :confused:

MORNIN'

*pours Vchat and hook a cup of JAVA* Cream? Sugar? :D

We also use the 8300HD DVR's for WOW in Cleveland. I'd bet they use the same hardware & software statewide, maybe system wide.

I'll check the SARA/Navigator if you like, but I'll need the dummies guide to do it as I've never messed with the cable box service menus before. :confused:

Here's your dummy guide as requested:

1. Locate your SA 8300. If you can't find it, call wife.

2. Upon finding SA 8300 approach (with caution) it to manually touch buttons. Have the remote with you too. If you can't find remote, call wife.

3. Locate Select button, push and hold it until a little envelope starts flashing on the front panel. If you have trouble finding either, call wife.

3. Press info button. Diagnostic screen should display on your television. If you have trouble finding television, call wife.

4. Scroll the screens upward with remote button and channel up/down button. It's usually on the right side of the remote and you probably don't use it much. Since wives do not handle remotes (at least none of mine do) she will not be able to help.

5. You should somewhere see SARA or Navigator right on the first couple of pages. Maybe even on the first page.

6. If you have SARA you will see a bunch of Warning messages. Ignore those, we all know it's a pos.

7. Eventually you will see the cable card screen and SDV screens. If yours says no all the time to SDV (SARA) and you have 0's next to every category, then you do not have SDV. nickdawg or someone else would have to tell you what to look for on Navigator. But any dummy should be able to find it. After all this is a dummy walk through.:D

8. Thank wife for help, go back to computer and let us know what you found! If you forgot everything bring pen, paper, or wife to help you remember and repeat everything again.

You're probably jealous because you cannot access VOD.



nickdawg first I'm not jealous with you concerning anything. You don't have an appreciation for HD, quality DVR's or even good taste in television programs (Wife Swap).:rolleyes: As far as VOD goes, I hate VOD never used it and never will. It's slow, clunky and difficult to maneuver in.That's why God gave us DVR's.;).

I think you got the point I was making and your just yanking my tail. But just in case I was showing the reasons why we argue so much.

Still doesn't mean I don't like you, even if you are a trash talkin' big mouth. You keep my mind active and at my age I need that kind of style of childish fun.:D

Here's your dummy guide as requested:

1. Locate your SA 8300. If you can't find it, call wife..........

No wife to contend with here. ;) I'd sooner stick pins in my eyes.

Results of Cleveland WOW cable service via SA8300HD DVR diag screens:

SARA
SDV Session 1 = SDV61444-Idle
SDV Session 2 = n/a

So this means??????????

No wife to contend with here. ;) I'd sooner stick pins in my eyes.

Results of Cleveland WOW cable service via SA8300HD DVR diag screens:

SARA
SDV Session 1 = SDV61444-Idle
SDV Session 2 = n/a

So this means??????????

Well, if you keep going and you see "0" and "no" it means you don't have SDV. It's capable, but they arn't running it. There should be several more pages concerning SDV.

I don't know of anybody who has SARA that converted to Navigator, and that's what we believe needs to happen to unify the system.

Hope you enjoyed the walk thorough.;)

Well, if you keep going and you see "0" and "no" it means you don't have SDV. It's capable, but they arn't running it. There should be several more pages concerning SDV.

I don't know of anybody who has SARA that converted to Navigator, and that's what we believe needs to happen to unify the system.

Hope you enjoyed the walk thorough.;)

Loved the walk through. Just the way I like it. :cool:

I checked my other box, a SA 2200 (non-HD), and the diag screens are far less "cryptic". Like the 8300 diag screens there is a bunch of *gobbly-gook* info under SDV SESSION 1 and all N/A for SDV SESSION 2.

But the 2200 has a very simple SDV screen that simply says: SDV Authorized: NO

Anyone else notice another of TW's so-called "improvements" with the new Navigator? They removed the feature that showed you the amount of time you were into the recorded shows, and replaced it with a very hard to guess bar graph. This is progress?

Anyone else notice another of TW's so-called "improvements" with the new Navigator? They removed the feature that showed you the amount of time you were into the recorded shows, and replaced it with a very hard to guess bar graph. This is progress?

Hey listen Mister. You'll take their piece of crap DVR and you better stop complaining. Time Warner knows what you want. They think like you do!:D

If your female substitute Ms for Mister but I doubt you are. Hey, how come we don't get any chicks in here?

Upon speaking with my wife I remembered that the old SARA didn't have a time bar either. They had the green space bar.

Navigator has a gold colored space bar. The part of the show not buffered yet is blank. On recorded shows, there is an indicator of how far along the show is.

Also, on DVR and VOD programs, the part of the banner where the time is usually shown is replaced with a "timer" of the show. So if you are 15 minutes into the show, it will say "0:15" and so on.

Navigator has a gold colored space bar. The part of the show not buffered yet is blank. On recorded shows, there is an indicator of how far along the show is.

Also, on DVR and VOD programs, the part of the banner where the time is usually shown is replaced with a "timer" of the show. So if you are 15 minutes into the show, it will say "0:15" and so on.

So the time of the recorded show is on the display. Do you have the ability to change that to time?

That's not bad, I hated SARA and the no time of show display. All it showed was the regular time. Just like the 4250

Anyone else notice another of TW's so-called "improvements" with the new Navigator? They removed the feature that showed you the amount of time you were into the recorded shows, and replaced it with a very hard to guess bar graph. This is progress?

So the time of the recorded show is on the display. Do you have the ability to change that to time?

That's not bad, I hated SARA and the no time of show display. All it showed was the regular time. Just like the 4250

It only shows the recorded show time during DVR playback. The rest of the time, the current time is shown. Same as on the 4250. The 4250 also replaces the time with the VOD show time during VOD programming.

Take a picture of your banner so I can see how it shows the time and if it is similar to Navigator. I can never find any pictures of the SARA menus at TWC websites. Or anywhere else.

That's not bad, I hated SARA and the no time of show display. All it showed was the regular time. Just like the 4250

That's probably been fixed in newer versions. Probably not on your system, as I doubt TWC would update SARA if it will be replaced eventually.

That's probably been fixed in newer versions. Probably not on your system, as I doubt TWC would update SARA if it will be replaced eventually.

I know there was at least one update. That did not chang the bar display. It added some user features. I will try to get photo later.

Per your request nickdawg. If I get some time I will try and shoot some pictures of the SDV diagnostic screen.

Turned off

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv100/hookbill-52/utf-8BSU1HMDAwMDItMjAwOTAyMTUtMT-1.jpg

Turned on

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv100/hookbill-52/utf-8BSU1HMDAwMTAtMjAwOTAyMTUtMjAwN.jpg

Per your request nickdawg. If I get some time I will try and shoot some pictures of the SDV diagnostic screen.

Turned off

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv100/hookbill-52/utf-8BSU1HMDAwMDItMjAwOTAyMTUtMT-1.jpg

Turned on

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv100/hookbill-52/utf-8BSU1HMDAwMTAtMjAwOTAyMTUtMjAwN.jpg

You took a picture of the box? :confused:

I meant the on screen banner. The box looks just like my box.

Except with Navigator the output format (720p, 1080i) never turns off.

You took a picture of the box? :confused:

I meant the on screen banner. The box looks just like my box.

Except with Navigator the output format (720p, 1080i) never turns off.

How the heck do I know what you want.

Do you want this?

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv100/hookbill-52/utf-8BSU1HMDAwMDEtMjAwOTAyMTYtMTQ0N.jpg

Or this?

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv100/hookbill-52/utf-8BSU1HMDAwMDItMjAwOTAyMTYtMTQ0N.jpg

How about this ugly thing from SARA?

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv100/hookbill-52/utf-8BSU1HMDAwMDMtMjAwOTAyMTYtMTQ0N.jpg

Don't mind the wires, remember this is wife's TV so I just stuck it in there. When they do switch to Navigator she will be stuck with that. That will happen around September.....:p:p:p

Hey guys,
We are testing a dual HD feed over the air feed today for WKBN and WYFX (27.1 & 27.2). Of course I'm fully aware of the hit in performance but I think it looks pretty good. I'd be interested in your opinions as to the tradeoff between the hit in performance and the ability to broadcast BOTH CBS and Fox in HD. No guarantees as to how long it will be up like this. I'm going to try and keep it at least through prime tonight depending on whether there are any problems reported to me. Right now CBS has college BB and Fox has Nascar. This is probably a fairly rigorous test for the stat muxing capabilities of my encoders. In other words, what you are seeing this afternoon will be quite representative of the worst case situation.

In watching these two stations via rabbit ears from N. Canton over the weekend, I noticed only a very slight degradation in picture quality (compared to the Fox 8 HD broadcast). Pretty much limited to not being able to read the patch on someone's jacket as clearly as before. The color was fantastic and I hope OTA Channel 27 keeps broadcasting in HD for both CBS and Fox. It's great to be able to switch that easily between channels. Should be fantastic when football season rolls around again.

On another note, does anyone know whether TWC adopting SDV will affect being able to receive QAM channels. Would there be more, the same, or fewer channels "in the clear" ?

How the heck do I know what you want.

Do you want this?

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv100/hookbill-52/utf-8BSU1HMDAwMDEtMjAwOTAyMTYtMTQ0N.jpg

Or this?

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv100/hookbill-52/utf-8BSU1HMDAwMDItMjAwOTAyMTYtMTQ0N.jpg

How about this ugly thing from SARA?

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv100/hookbill-52/utf-8BSU1HMDAwMDMtMjAwOTAyMTYtMTQ0N.jpg

Don't mind the wires, remember this is wife's TV so I just stuck it in there. When they do switch to Navigator she will be stuck with that. That will happen around September.....:p:p:p

Ugly? That's the most beautiful guide I've ever seen. I need a little "heart" smiley. <3

In the second photo, I can just see that the SARA guide description is far better than the Navigator one.

I checked my guide for "One Life To Live", and the description I get is as follows:
"NEW.(2009) The events at the ball take a toll on all concerned. [CC] (headphones) 1hr Runtime."

THAT'S IT!!! That's all it ever says for any show. I can see an entire second and third line of description that is absent from Navigator. Plus those yellow-ish menus remind me of Passport. Plus the longer descriptions and listing the show category in the guide.

Wow, SARA actually looks alot like Passport. The version I liked best, the non-DVR version. I didn't really like the DVR version as much(as it looked like Navigator).

I like the plain basic colors of the menus, compared to the "gradient" colors of Navigator. That makes me wonder if that's why the OCAP boxes choke so much on Navigator---the graphic-intensive menu system? I'm not a fan of all those flashy, colorful menus. That's why i don't have tivo!:p

Seeing this, I think you're now even more odd for dumping the 8300!! :D:D:cool:

How the heck do I know what you want.

Do you want this?

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv100/hookbill-52/utf-8BSU1HMDAwMDEtMjAwOTAyMTYtMTQ0N.jpg



I got OT there, but where's the clock? You said there was some kind of on screen clock, but I didn't see it. I only saw a banner, but there was no tab to the left(where Navigator has the clock). :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

Ugly? That's the most beautiful guide I've ever seen. I need a little "heart" smiley. <3

In the second photo, I can just see that the SARA guide description is far better than the Navigator one.

I checked my guide for "One Life To Live", and the description I get is as follows:
"NEW.(2009) The events at the ball take a toll on all concerned. [CC] (headphones) 1hr Runtime."

THAT'S IT!!! That's all it ever says for any show. I can see an entire second and third line of description that is absent from Navigator. Plus those yellow-ish menus remind me of Passport. Plus the longer descriptions and listing the show category in the guide.

Wow, SARA actually looks alot like Passport. The version I liked best, the non-DVR version. I didn't really like the DVR version as much(as it looked like Navigator).

I like the plain basic colors of the menus, compared to the "gradient" colors of Navigator. That makes me wonder if that's why the OCAP boxes choke so much on Navigator---the graphic-intensive menu system? I'm not a fan of all those flashy, colorful menus. That's why i don't have tivo!:p

Seeing this, I think you're now even more odd for dumping the 8300!! :D:D:cool:

I'm strange for dumping a DVR that missed recordings, did partial recordings and has the worlds ugliest interface? Not to mention horrible search features.

You can of course change that guide to a better looking one in the settings, but the basic design looks like something out of 1985.

I got OT there, but where's the clock? You said there was some kind of on screen clock, but I didn't see it. I only saw a banner, but there was no tab to the left(where Navigator has the clock). :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

The only clock is the one on the box. That's what I thought you said you wanted.

I said that SARA did not have a timer on the bar, and I can't show you that because it's not a DVR.

TiVo has a time bar, of course. And much longer, better descriptions. Usually 2 pages with actors, episode number and detail.

On another note, does anyone know whether TWC adopting SDV will affect being able to receive QAM channels. Would there be more, the same, or fewer channels "in the clear" ?

Well, it all depends on what channels they put in the SDV 'carousel'. The whole point of SDV is to put the LEAST watched channels in so that while they aren't watched, that's a huge chunk of bandwidth relieved on the system. Obviously it's be pretty wasteful and useless to put the HD locals in the SDV system (though who knows. If they can get all the bugs worked out they may go full SDV on everything, but that'd be WAAY down the road even if they do go for it.)

But as it is now, we don't get a whole lot of QAM's in the clear as it is. The usual locals in HD, possible subchannels for some of them, and stuff like the VOD and PPV preview video feeds. Not much beyond that.

To put it simply, it's anyones guess. But no one should really be relying on Clear QAM channels to begin with unless you only watch the locals. In which those should remain for the known future.

Well, it all depends on what channels they put in the SDV 'carousel'. The whole point of SDV is to put the LEAST watched channels in so that while they aren't watched, that's a huge chunk of bandwidth relieved on the system. Obviously it's be pretty wasteful and useless to put the HD locals in the SDV system (though who knows. If they can get all the bugs worked out they may go full SDV on everything, but that'd be WAAY down the road even if they do go for it.)

But as it is now, we don't get a whole lot of QAM's in the clear as it is. The usual locals in HD, possible subchannels for some of them, and stuff like the VOD and PPV preview video feeds. Not much beyond that.

To put it simply, it's anyones guess. But no one should really be relying on Clear QAM channels to begin with unless you only watch the locals. In which those should remain for the known future.

One thing I do know is locals will never be on SDV. As you said it will be mostly channels that we don't watch and probably new HD channels. Most likely existing HD channels will probably not be put on there. I say probably, I could be wrong on that but locals never go on SDV. Google Austin and SDV, they have had it the longest and you won't see it there either.

(27 broadcasting 2 HD channels). Should be fantastic when football season rolls around again.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek::eek::eek:

Should be a macroblocked, blurry, unwatchable mess once both stations are broadcasting fast-action images. I always thought haveing a weather sub and a football game looked bad. But to think about having two simultaneous HD streams broadcasting fast action. That should make NBC's Olympic presentation of August 2008 look like a BluRay presentation.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

As much as I've ripped on WOIO in the past, at least they have the sense to broadcast HD as a decent affiliate would: respect the native resolution of the parent network and only broadcast one 480i sub. Although I do still wish WOIO would adopt the CBS O&O standard of HD broadcasting.

All the times I've uttered "I wish we had WKBN instead". Never again will I say that. No matter what WOIO throws at me. Action News Sharon Reed primetime specials in HD or Paid Programming in upconverted to 1080i look far better than CBS HD shows DEGRADED to 720p+bandwidth starved.

And it's for FOX!!! WTF??? FOX in HD hardly justifies pissing on CBS. We have a real, physical FOX HD affiliate in Cleveland. Honestly, if it didn't exist, my life would be in no way better or worse with only SDTV.

The only clock is the one on the box. That's what I thought you said you wanted.

I said that SARA did not have a timer on the bar, and I can't show you that because it's not a DVR.

TiVo has a time bar, of course. And much longer, better descriptions. Usually 2 pages with actors, episode number and detail.

So there is no clock on screen when you press info? :confused:

That's a little setback, but not that bad...

I'm strange for dumping a DVR that missed recordings, did partial recordings and has the worlds ugliest interface? Not to mention horrible search features.

You can of course change that guide to a better looking one in the settings, but the basic design looks like something out of 1985.

That's how the non-DVR Passport looked, complete with changeable guide in the Settings. Different color schemes I assume?

But look at what I have to look at:

http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/2/7013.jpg

Look at this UGLY thing. That is the OCAP Navigator banner. It's f**king huge!!

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii286/bankerjohn/8300HDCimageII.jpg

That's how the non-DVR Passport looked, complete with changeable guide in the Settings. Different color schemes I assume?

But look at what I have to look at:

http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/2/7013.jpg

Look at this UGLY thing. That is the OCAP Navigator banner. It's f**king huge!!

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii286/bankerjohn/8300HDCimageII.jpg

I dunno. I had the non-DVR passport (standard Passport, not Echo) on an old Pioneer box way back when and it still looked more advanced and 'prettified' than SARA can ever hope to be then, now, or ever.

Honestly though I like the new Navigator color scheme though rather than the stock 'Blue' scheme. Looks more modern and clean. The banner bar could be reduced in size, but eh..What can you do? Besides, how much do you have the thing on the screen anyway?

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek::eek::eek:

Should be a macroblocked, blurry, unwatchable mess once both stations are broadcasting fast-action images. I always thought haveing a weather sub and a football game looked bad. But to think about having two simultaneous HD streams broadcasting fast action. That should make NBC's Olympic presentation of August 2008 look like a BluRay presentation.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

As much as I've ripped on WOIO in the past, at least they have the sense to broadcast HD as a decent affiliate would: respect the native resolution of the parent network and only broadcast one 480i sub. Although I do still wish WOIO would adopt the CBS O&O standard of HD broadcasting.

All the times I've uttered "I wish we had WKBN instead". Never again will I say that. No matter what WOIO throws at me. Action News Sharon Reed primetime specials in HD or Paid Programming in upconverted to 1080i look far better than CBS HD shows DEGRADED to 720p+bandwidth starved.

And it's for FOX!!! WTF??? FOX in HD hardly justifies pissing on CBS. We have a real, physical FOX HD affiliate in Cleveland. Honestly, if it didn't exist, my life would be in no way better or worse with only SDTV.

How your television handles HD has a great deal to do with what you are talking about. Inundated mentions that he sees this from time to time during fast action. I question the quality of your set nickdawg. I never see that. What's the pixel response on your set? My 37LG30 is 5ms. Anything higher then that and I can understand why you might have problems.

See hookbill. I can't understand nickdawg some days. Gives me a massive migraine trying to understand it. :confused: Guy makes Kerry look like an honest joe the way he flipflops on his arguments. :rolleyes:

I dunno. I had the non-DVR passport (standard Passport, not Echo) on an old Pioneer box way back when and it still looked more advanced and 'prettified' than SARA can ever hope to be then, now, or ever.

Honestly though I like the new Navigator color scheme though rather than the stock 'Blue' scheme. Looks more modern and clean. The banner bar could be reduced in size, but eh..What can you do? Besides, how much do you have the thing on the screen anyway?

I like the new colors too, but I still prefer plain and simple over garish and flashy. I still wonder how much memory those flashy graphics and fade effects are eating, all for the sake of "pretty". It's like preferring Windows Classic style over Windows Vista style. I get the feeling it is the same case with Navigator.

Plus, they haven't updated the OCAP boxes yet. Only the current OCAP boxes have the huge banner. My MDN (non OCAP) box has a normal sized banner. That's all I want out of OCAP. I'm anxiously awaiting that software upgrade. I hope tonight.

The blue is part of the reason I despise it so much. Did anybody think before making that? Blue-on blue on blue on blue is NOT a good idea!:rolleyes: Also why I liked old Passport/SARA is the pastel type colors(pinkish purple, light blue, golden yellow, white) with dark text. Light BG with dark text is easier on the eyes.

How your television handles HD has a great deal to do with what you are talking about. Inundated mentions that he sees this from time to time during fast action. I question the quality of your set nickdawg. I never see that. What's the pixel response on your set? My 37LG30 is 5ms. Anything higher then that and I can understand why you might have problems.

It's NOT my TV!! :mad::mad::mad: It's the programming. The Olympics looked like hell, read the main forum Olympic topic. It was awful because of the source (NBC). Then the Super Bowl. A much better presentation. Now, my TV didn't magically grow better over night(or a few months) ;) Now, PQ on some CBS stations (O&O) is beautiful. Compare it to the lesser WOIO and the depths-of-hell WKBN.

If you never see that, then I question your eyes or your set. There is no 100% perfect HD programming. Fast action, especially WOIO NFL, is prone to breakup.

IT IS THE SOURCE. If the source is bad enough, I've heard picture quality issues can be seen on analog sets with converter boxes. That usually happens with packed in subchannels.

It's NOT my TV!! :mad::mad::mad: It's the programming. The Olympics looked like hell, read the main forum Olympic topic. It was awful because of the source (NBC). Then the Super Bowl. A much better presentation. Now, my TV didn't magically grow better over night(or a few months) ;) Now, PQ on some CBS stations (O&O) is beautiful. Compare it to the lesser WOIO and the depths-of-hell WKBN.

If you never see that, then I question your eyes or your set. There is no 100% perfect HD programming. Fast action, especially WOIO NFL, is prone to breakup.

IT IS THE SOURCE. If the source is bad enough, I've heard picture quality issues can be seen on analog sets with converter boxes. That usually happens with packed in subchannels.

Vchat is right, your like a politician. Answer the question, what is your response time? Do you even know?

How the hell do I know? I don't remember. I'd have to go dig out the instruction manual.

I know it's not my TV. I've watched other programming on subchannel free channels like WEWS and WBNX, and even WKYC(with 1) and they look fine. NBC was the network's fault and WOIO has never looked the same since adding the useless channel.

How the hell do I know? I don't remember. I'd have to go dig out the instruction manual.

I know it's not my TV. I've watched other programming on subchannel free channels like WEWS and WBNX, and even WKYC(with 1) and they look fine. NBC was the network's fault and WOIO has never looked the same since adding the useless channel.

Gee, I don't know! Ever heard of this thing called the internet? Google your set model number. You think I remember all that crap?:p:p:p

Just got off the phone with a TWC rep while I called about lowering my bill (which I kinda did...). For the hell of it I inquired about when TW will be getting new HD channels. She said that Chiller (apparently a horror network) was scheduled to be released today and was to come with an HD channel. She also did mention that they 'delayed' rolling this channel out (big surprise).

...thought I would give the heads up if anyone started freaking about seeing another HD channel pop up.

Just got off the phone with a TWC rep while I called about lowering my bill (which I kinda did...). For the hell of it I inquired about when TW will be getting new HD channels. She said that Chiller (apparently a horror network) was scheduled to be released today and was to come with an HD channel. She also did mention that they 'delayed' rolling this channel out (big surprise).

...thought I would give the heads up if anyone started freaking about seeing another HD channel pop up.


hookbill drops jaw in amazement: A CSR told you they would have a new HD channel today?

In all the years I've dealt with cable/satellite companies I've never heard a CSR say that. Now if it actually happens I'll be truly amazed!;)

Yeah, It's kinda sad. These people have no idea what they are selling, or who can receive what. I had to keep repeating..."I want this, not that, that that...and I want to pay this, which is what you advertise."

The whole bundle package deals (if you want to call them deals) are so screwed up in how they are written if what these CSR's are saying is correct...

A tip for anyone interested....WTRF-DT Ch 7, Wheeling WV, went live today at 12:30 PM with their permanent digital station. Analog has been terminated. I am receiving them at 75%, sometimes peaking a little higher, at my location here in Canton. They have CBS on 7.1, Fox on 7.2 and ABC on 7.3. The HD on 7.1 doesn't look too bad considering all that subchannel usage. I'm basing that on seeing a little of "The Young and the Restless"...a little is all I could stand. :)

Just got off the phone with a TWC rep while I called about lowering my bill (which I kinda did...). For the hell of it I inquired about when TW will be getting new HD channels. She said that Chiller (apparently a horror network) was scheduled to be released today and was to come with an HD channel. She also did mention that they 'delayed' rolling this channel out (big surprise).

...thought I would give the heads up if anyone started freaking about seeing another HD channel pop up.

CNBC World is gone on 358(as in ht eprogramming notice).

Chiller is on 223, between Sleuth and Scifi.

As of now, no HD channel added.

I'm not surprised this one was delayed. The other 5 they are adding are coming some time in March.

Yeah, It's kinda sad. These people have no idea what they are selling, or who can receive what. I had to keep repeating..."I want this, not that, that that...and I want to pay this, which is what you advertise."

The whole bundle package deals (if you want to call them deals) are so screwed up in how they are written if what these CSR's are saying is correct...

As much as I want a lower price, I won't do that. I don't feel like arguing and getting aggravated to save a few bucks. Plus those package "deals" are not deals. Any time I call there, they're always jumping on me to buy internet or phone. Errm, no thanks!!:mad: Unless you can beat the $19.95 I get from AT&T, I'll pass. Notice I said beat, because it's not worth changing providers for the same price. Also, I'm happy with AT&T's service. Something(like a few hundred posts here about TWC) tell me I'd be very unhappy with TWC's internet!:p ;):D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

CNBC World is gone on 358(as in ht eprogramming notice).

Chiller is on 223, between Sleuth and Scifi.

As of now, no HD channel added.

I'm not surprised this one was delayed. The other 5 they are adding are coming some time in March.

Channel 223 is not coming in on either of my TiVo's, and I don't have Sleuth either I have TruTV so Lord knows what else I'm missing.

I don't see it on the guide at TW's website. I am getting it on my wifes STB, gonna check and see about Sleuth.

I called my contact at TW to try to resolve this, when she calls me I'll see if I can get some SDV and HD answers. It's been a while since I last spoke to her.

I just checked the STB, no Sleuth and it's not on the web guide either.

Channel 223 is not coming in on either of my TiVo's, and I don't have Sleuth either I have TruTV so Lord knows what else I'm missing.

I don't see it on the guide at TW's website. I am getting it on my wifes STB, gonna check and see about Sleuth.

I called my contact at TW to try to resolve this, when she calls me I'll see if I can get some SDV and HD answers. It's been a while since I last spoke to her.

I just checked the STB, no Sleuth and it's not on the web guide either.

Good. I was going to say you should email or call your "contact" about this. Find out what's really going on with SARA and SDV. If they're doing Navigator first or not. And if Mr. Jasso was just blowing smoke up our... .

Also, if she knows anything about Navigator, ask her if they're ever going to download an update for the OCAP Navigator. Pleeeeeeeeeeaaaaase!!!!:D:D

well I just checked my box i have Sleuth which is odd that i never had it before also Chiller is up and running

You don't get Sleuth? That channel has been on the lineup since another NBC U channel bit the dust, TRIO. Sleuth shows old cop shows and mystery movies.

Does anyone else see "no program in guide" as the description for what's on Chiller?

Does anyone else see "no program in guide" as the description for what's on Chiller?

Yeah thats happening for me also

Yeah thats happening for me also

Do you have a SARA guide(gold background with pastel colors) or NAVIGATOR guide(bright blue guide or black/gold/dark blue)?

Navigator

Navigator

Hmm, maybe it's another SARA vs. Navigator thing. Hookbill has SARA, says he doesn't have Sleuth or SDV.

The Navigator people(everywhere) have SDV. And probably Sleuth. :confused::confused::confused:

Hmm, maybe it's another SARA vs. Navigator thing. Hookbill has SARA, says he doesn't have Sleuth or SDV.

The Navigator people(everywhere) have SDV. And probably Sleuth. :confused::confused::confused:

I have guide data for Chiller on 223 on the STB. No Sleuth, however. How long have you had it and what channel is it on? I kind of remember one of the Discovery Channels changing to that. Is it a mirror channel? I looked in the lower guides but I didn't look that hard, I've been a bit busy.

I have guide data for Chiller on 223 on the STB. No Sleuth, however. How long have you had it and what channel is it on? I kind of remember one of the Discovery Channels changing to that. Is it a mirror channel? I looked in the lower guides but I didn't look that hard, I've been a bit busy.

Nope. It's always been digital. One of the channels that used to be in the "digital" channels when only digital was over 100.

Should be on channel 221 between Court TV and Scifi.

It's existed since January 2006. We've had it since then, because it replaced Trio.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleuth_Channel

How about that 'contact'? Any news yet?

I don't think a 'Chiller HD' is ever coming. Not anytime soon.

On 2/17/09, CNBC World will be dropped from the line-up, and replaced with Chiller.

Primetime On Demand will be added to the line-up on, or after, February 18, 2009.

I wonder what that will be? Primetime TV shows on Demand? Sounds like another VOD channel I'll like. And less reasons to need to DVR shows! :p

Also, check this out:

Effective on, or after, March 1, 2009, the following services will be added to the Digital line-up as separate On Demand channels in the former Adelphia service area;

Video On Demand Information, HD Showcase On Demand, Local On Demand, Kent State On Demand, Kids On Demand-Preschool, Kids On Demand, Sportskool On Demand, Exercise On Demand, Sports On Demand, Entertainment On Demand, Lifestyle On Demand, News & World On Demand, Cutting Edge On Demand, Primetime On Demand, Music On Demand, TV Guide Network On Demand, Free Movies On Demand, A&E/Biography On Demand, Oxygen On Demand, BBC America On Demand, LifeSkool On Demand, Big Ten Network On Demand SportsTime Ohio On Demand, Big Ten Network On Demand HD, HD Showcase, HD Movies On Demand, Movies On Demand Espanol, International Movies On Demand, Outrageous On Demand, Events On Demand, Movies On Demand Previews, Movies On Demand, Free Movies On Demand, Virtual Video Store Kids, Virtual Video Store Classics, Virtual Video Store Action, Virtual Video Store Comedy, Virtual Video Store Drama, Virtual Video Store Thrillers, Automotive On Demand, Find It On Demand, Movie Trailers On Demand, My Life On Demand, Journey TV On Demand, Spice On Demand, Erotic On Demand, Movies On Demand HD, Movie Feature Channels 1 through 10, HD Movies On Demand, Adult On Demand, Playboy On Demand, Adult On Demand HD, Here TV On Demand, Too Much For TV On Demand, Howard TV On Demand, PhotoShow TV, HBO ON Demand, Cinemax On Demand, Showtime On Demand, TMC On Demand, Starz! On Demand, Events On Demand, Disney On Demand,

This is what we have had since last March with Passport and now Navigator. I wonder if these changes are somehow related to SDV/Navigator?

Well another Twist in the mysterious Sleuth Channel it disappeared on my Navigator box again

The Chiller channel has not showed up on my OCAP box yet. There is no 223. But CNBCW is still listed on 358, with a blank screen.

The Chiller channel has not showed up on my OCAP box yet. There is no 223. But CNBCW is still listed on 358, with a blank screen.

Now it showed up, I checked again around 8pm.

A tip for anyone interested....WTRF-DT Ch 7, Wheeling WV, went live today at 12:30 PM with their permanent digital station. Analog has been terminated. I am receiving them at 75%, sometimes peaking a little higher, at my location here in Canton. They have CBS on 7.1, Fox on 7.2 and ABC on 7.3. The HD on 7.1 doesn't look too bad considering all that subchannel usage. I'm basing that on seeing a little of "The Young and the Restless"...a little is all I could stand. :)

Holy cow, do I read that correctly? THREE HD subchannels? Those channels will look great on a weekend afternoon when all 3 have some kind of sports running at the same time. :eek::eek::eek:

Must have saved them a ton of money though, switching off 3 analog transmitters and cramming all three on one digital channel.

Great! TW gives us a horror channel version of TV Land. Just what I wanted. :rolleyes:

Holy cow, do I read that correctly? THREE HD subchannels? Those channels will look great on a weekend afternoon when all 3 have some kind of sports running at the same time. :eek::eek::eek:

Must have saved them a ton of money though, switching off 3 analog transmitters and cramming all three on one digital channel.

Corrections:

1 HD and 2 SD.

1 analog transmitter. The two SD subs have never been available on analog.

- Trip

Great! TW gives us a horror channel version of TV Land. Just what I wanted. :rolleyes:

I HOPE this never goes HD here. I'll be screaming loud enough that they'll hear me in Erie if I see this channel light up in HD before USA or the others!:mad::mad::mad:

Corrections:

1 HD and 2 SD.

1 analog transmitter. The two SD subs have never been available on analog.

- Trip

At least they have more sense than WKBN.:rolleyes:;):cool:

I'll bet NCIS fans over in Y'Town are really thrilled tonight to watch a degraded 720p CBS. But hey, at least American Idiots, err "Idols" is in HD. Yippee for that!:D:D:D

I'm so thankful for WOIO now. Excuse me, I have to go say ten "Hail Applegates" ;):D:D:D:p

At least they have more sense than WKBN.:rolleyes:;):cool:

I'll bet NCIS fans over in Y'Town are really thrilled tonight to watch a degraded 720p CBS. But hey, at least American Idiots, err "Idols" is in HD. Yippee for that!:D:D:D

I'm so thankful for WOIO now. Excuse me, I have to go say ten "Hail Applegates" ;):D:D:D:p

I can't believe it. I agree with nickdawg.

I don't see any horsemen outside... it must not have progressed too much yet. :D

- Trip

I will be honest though. During this test of a dual HD 720p broadcast with WKBN and WYFX, it's not all that bad. Like the WKBN engineer has stated, the statmuxer updates have greatly improved the ability to run multiple high bandwidth streams side by side and fill up the alloted 18mbit channel space while giving the content the bitrate it needs at the right times. And with future updates (this is all firmware updates btw, no expensive equipment to throw out and upgrade), it can probably improve moreso. That isn't even mentioning that the chances of having both channels hitting a period of high motion at the exact same time thus starving for bandwidth is probably very slim. With commercials and slow points in shows... (btw, one ponderance to network engineers I'll pose at the end of this)

Though on the fence though because obviously bringing 1080i content down to 720p is going to noticably affect the quality anyway especially to those already glued to the 1080i broadcast. But it's certainly not terrible by any means.

Once again the people like nickdawg that are complaining need to remember that the primary focus of going digital OTA is just that: Going digital and to preserve RF bandwidth. HD programming is merely an added bonus. Broadcasters can just as easily stick to 480i for everything and the digital transition would have still accomplished it's purpose.

And that is not to mention the fact that the Youngstown OTA market hasn't even had a digital HD Fox broadcast till now so you have those people who are probably highly pleased that this is now available and wouldn't want it switched back.

'Can't please all of the people all of the time'

One thing that crossed my mind that I'd like to bring up for the resident engineers or people who are involved with the processing pipeline at a television station: What is the possibility of identifying commercials both locally and in network feeds and have these statmuxers put those sections on a low priority for their duration so that if another channel in the same carrier needs that extra bandwidth, it can steal it from the commercials running on an adjacent channel?

I can't believe it. I agree with nickdawg.

I don't see any horsemen outside... it must not have progressed too much yet. :D

- Trip

That makes two of us. I agree about the chiller HD.

FWIW my very tired TW contact called me at 9pm. She said the hit for the new channel for cable cards went out tonight. I checked both tivos and no 223. It was late so I did not ask any other questions. If I don't have it by tomorrow I will call her again.

I HOPE this never goes HD here. I'll be screaming loud enough that they'll hear me in Erie if I see this channel light up in HD before USA or the others!:mad::mad::mad:

well it would give us one more "HD" channel
also nice enough to mention the crap hole Erie in that post

Yeah, but. It's fundamentally wrong to downconvert or change the resolution of network programming. True, it is a DIGITAL broadcast transition. But, if you're going to broadcast HD, you should have to do it right. AFAIK, there are no "SD digital only" affiliates of the major networks broadcasting on the "-1" channel. Only in cases like Y'Town, where CW, MNTV and FOX are on subchannels "-2". If you are going to carry the HDTV feed of a network, then you must present it in the native resolution of the network.

This is bad, real bad. If it is going to become acceptable to downconvert 1080i feeds to 720p, then what's to stop someone from downconverting a 720p or 1080i feed to 480i/p? Why not. You could broadcast a "HD" version of three channels, but knocked down to 480i/p. That could be CBS, FOX and ION. Or to be really sadistic: NBC, CBS and CW.

Where does it end?

And with more of these bottom feeding loser networks, I mean subchannels like RTN, This TV, Me TV, etc what's to stop them from wanting a piece of the HD action? They might push for "joint HD carriage" with FOX, ABC and MNTV stations already at 720p. Or be real greedy and push for HD carriage on NBC/CBS/CW affiliates.

Like I've said before, the best days of HD are far behind us. Now, corporate greed and the unwashed masses of the public are ruining HDTV.

That makes two of us. I agree about the chiller HD.

FWIW my very tired TW contact called me at 9pm. She said the hit for the new channel for cable cards went out tonight. I checked both tivos and no 223. It was late so I did not ask any other questions. If I don't have it by tomorrow I will call her again.

Maybe that's why my OCAP box didn't get it until later.

Remember, ask about that upgrade for Navigator on OCAP boxes. ;)

well it would give us one more "HD" channel
also nice enough to mention the crap hole Erie in that post

It would give us one more channel. So would Golf or the Weather Channel. But it means nothing if it is a worthless channel. Just like adding TBS in 2007. They had ZERO % HD after baseball and there's still not enough to justify carrying it now. Same with channels 441-448 on TWC. Sure, they're "HD" in the minimal sense of the word, but there's little meaningful content compared to USA or F/X.

Yeah, but. It's fundamentally wrong to downconvert or change the resolution of network programming. True, it is a DIGITAL broadcast transition. But, if you're going to broadcast HD, you should have to do it right. AFAIK, there are no "SD digital only" affiliates of the major networks broadcasting on the "-1" channel. Only in cases like Y'Town, where CW, MNTV and FOX are on subchannels "-2". If you are going to carry the HDTV feed of a network, then you must present it in the native resolution of the network.

This is bad, real bad. If it is going to become acceptable to downconvert 1080i feeds to 720p, then what's to stop someone from downconverting a 720p or 1080i feed to 480i/p? Why not. You could broadcast a "HD" version of three channels, but knocked down to 480i/p. That could be CBS, FOX and ION. Or to be really sadistic: NBC, CBS and CW.

Where does it end?

And with more of these bottom feeding loser networks, I mean subchannels like RTN, This TV, Me TV, etc what's to stop them from wanting a piece of the HD action? They might push for "joint HD carriage" with FOX, ABC and MNTV stations already at 720p. Or be real greedy and push for HD carriage on NBC/CBS/CW affiliates.

Like I've said before, the best days of HD are far behind us. Now, corporate greed and the unwashed masses of the public are ruining HDTV.

Hey. I'm not disagreeing with that point one bit. But you have to realize that 1: This is currently just a test and 2: This is a special case because the Youngstown market currently doesn't have a Fox HD feed OTA and WKBN owns WYFX. Add in the fact that they probably don't have the budget for a second digital transmitter/license/etc..

OMG. Why can't we get USAHD like right this second? :mad: L&O:SVU marathon from 6AM to 6PM tomorrow.