Cleveland, OH - TWC [Text View] - Page 72

Michael P 2341

03-14-09, 09:42 AM

Now on network HD programming too!! Tonight I was watching 20/20 in HD on WEWHD. I notice first that the bug is too far up from the bottom of the screen. And under that is a HUGE black line! I measured it and on my TV screen it is about 1/2 to 3/4 an inch. It's not an overlayed line, the picture is pushed up on screen. Several shots looked funny because heads were too close to the top of the screen. Long story short, I flipped back to the analog version of the channel. Looks perfect. Obviously TWC is still using the analog version of WEWS, since nothing is wrong with the SD channel. That is where my TV remained for the rest of the show.

I'd really like to know what the hell is going on over at that Mickey Mouse TV station. I've seen that black line several times. It's been fixed several times.
I'm beginning to think this black bar may be isolated to your model TV. I never see it on my SDTV. I watch the HD feeds in letterbox and can see all the artifacts on both the top and bottom of the picture. Outside of the VBI at the top of an SD originated video I do not see that black bar.

One thing I have noticed, for the first time, is no VBI on late night programs (Matlock). That is definitely an SD program, perhaps it's so old it did not have any information on it's VBI (i.e. no closed captioning). It was a perfect 4X3 rectangle (actually it looked a little bit smaller than the usual 4X3). BTW: if you are wondering why I had not zoomed a 4X3 program to fill my screen, I did not watch the program, I was just going through the channels before shutting off the TV for the night. If I was going to watch this program I would zoom it to full screen (but then I'd miss all the artifacts :D)

Michael P 2341

03-14-09, 11:55 AM

WUAB pulled the screen with the "This TV Cleveland" message from 43.2. It's now just a blank screen. Does anybody know what's up with that? The EPG on my 622 still says "Off air". It said that when the message was up.

I wonder if anything fell through concerning This TV and WUAB?

Rbuchina

03-14-09, 12:05 PM

Now on network HD programming too!! Tonight I was watching 20/20 in HD on WEWHD. I notice first that the bug is too far up from the bottom of the screen. And under that is a HUGE black line! I measured it and on my TV screen it is about 1/2 to 3/4 an inch. It's not an overlayed line, the picture is pushed up on screen. Several shots looked funny because heads were too close to the top of the screen. Long story short, I flipped back to the analog version of the channel. Looks perfect. Obviously TWC is still using the analog version of WEWS, since nothing is wrong with the SD channel. That is where my TV remained for the rest of the show.

I'd really like to know what the hell is going on over at that Mickey Mouse TV station. I've seen that black line several times. It's been fixed several times.

Nickdawg,
Check your Screen settings menu on your TV to see if you can alter the amount of overscan your TV shows. On my Sony z4100 the screen scale can be set to "full pixel", "normal", +1, +2, -1, -2 and the screen is "zoomed" accordingly smaller or larger. On full pixel I get a bar on ther top and bottom of an HD image. I have to dig deep into the setting menu to find this. YMMV.
Ray

black88mx6

03-14-09, 02:48 PM

hookbill

03-14-09, 03:01 PM

I am in Hinckley, and received my notice today from Time Warner Cable that SDV is coming beginning April 9th. There is a large list of channels that will be moving to SDV, and that I will need to exchange my cable cards for new HD basic converters if I wish to continue to receive these channels.

Since I will keep my cable cards due to my dislike of cable boxes, and their built in tuners, I will be forced to give us some of the channels that I watch while still paying for them. A case like this for me would be good for a la cart services, as I know that a "cable card" based tier will not be offered.

Until tru2way services are offered in our area, I will continue to be disappointed in current generation digital services.

The large amount of channels you refer to should only contain a couple of HD channels, however one of them I believe is STO so if your a tribe fan you may want to take the box.

I really don't see why you don't want the box. I've been using it for my wife's HD television and for all purposes I think it works just fine.

Who knows when Tru 2 way will be offered. Sony is the one behind this, I've never fully understood it to be honest.

nickdawg

03-14-09, 03:54 PM

I'm beginning to think this black bar may be isolated to your model TV. I never see it on my SDTV. I watch the HD feeds in letterbox and can see all the artifacts on both the top and bottom of the picture. Outside of the VBI at the top of an SD originated video I do not see that black bar.

One thing I have noticed, for the first time, is no VBI on late night programs (Matlock). That is definitely an SD program, perhaps it's so old it did not have any information on it's VBI (i.e. no closed captioning). It was a perfect 4X3 rectangle (actually it looked a little bit smaller than the usual 4X3). BTW: if you are wondering why I had not zoomed a 4X3 program to fill my screen, I did not watch the program, I was just going through the channels before shutting off the TV for the night. If I was going to watch this program I would zoom it to full screen (but then I'd miss all the artifacts :D)

What provider do you use? TWC, OTA, D*, E* or other? If you're not TWC that may be the problem. I remember reading here before that something was wrong with WEWS HD and it was only on TWC, since they get a fiber feed from the station.

On my TV I have an option called "H/V Position Adjust". It can move from -15 to +15 horizontally and from +30 to -30 vertically. Normally this is always set to 0 for both(for a normal picture). Even setting the vertical position all the way to -30, there still is a slight line at the bottom of the screen.

I too have a SDTV with a HD box connected. When I watch that TV, I notice that the bottom bar is bigger than the top bar.

Edit, it is on that TV too. I put a piece of masking tape on the SDTV screen at the bottom of the picture inside the letterbox bars. Of all the channels I flipped through, only WEWS looked like that.

nickdawg

03-14-09, 04:03 PM

Until tru2way services are offered in our area, I will continue to be disappointed in current generation digital services.

...Or you can just get a cable box right now and enjoy the best our current generation of digital services offer. You'd get all the channels including the existing ones that have moved to SDV and new channels in SDV. Eventually all the new HD channels TWC adds will be SDV. You're missing all the new HD channels. And of course other features like the program guide, the channel banner, Video on Demand and DVR service.

For you, I'd say your best option would be either Directv or Dish(if you're that phobic of TWC boxes). Even those satellite companies are better than TWC without a cable box. Analog channels, no IPG, no thanks! The 80s are gone, we're moving on! :D

hookbill

03-14-09, 04:04 PM

I see a black line on the bottom of WEWS too. I'll check when they go network at 4:30 and get back to you.

nickdawg

03-14-09, 04:20 PM

Who knows when Tru 2 way will be offered. Sony is the one behind this, I've never fully understood it to be honest.

Honestly, I don't think we'll ever see this, or at least not as a generally accepted thing like cable boxes. There's too much with tru 2 way that doesn't make sense. The biggest thing I can think of is variations in TV models. Does anyone have a TV remote with A, B, C buttons or a little blue Select button(as pictured in the cable company OS)? There would have to be a standardization between TV manufacturers to make sure buttons like "Play, Pause, Stop, FF, etc" are included on remotes for VOD services. That's just an aesthetic issue.

The technical problem is the software. First of all, I will not be first in line to get TWC's Navigator directly downloaded to my TV. ;) Second, the cable company's firmaware is not the only thing running. There's also OCAP software and middleware for OCAP on these settop boxes. Right now since all the boxes belong to TWC and are the same, they handle all these upgrades. With a tru 2 way system, the end user would be responsible for middleware updates. Remember, we're talking about customers who have to be asked if they plugged the cable box into the wall by TWC phone representatives! And now these people are supposed to know what to do with middleware updates? :confused::confused::confused:

And of course my biggest gripe with owning cable equipment: obsolete technology. The thing I hate most about electronics, especially computers. A few months(or less) later, something better comes along. At least with TWC I can trade in an old box for a newer one when one comes along. When the Samsung DVRs come along, those stuck with the crappy HDC boxes (or anyone) can upgrade for FREE. Even products like Tivo are more consumer friendly by providing tuning adapters to remedy problems.

One thing is certain, next years TVs will be better. And the year after that. And then you're STUCK with it until it breaks.

nickdawg

03-14-09, 04:31 PM

I see a black line on the bottom of WEWS too. I'll check when they go network at 4:30 and get back to you.

I'm watching a show on WEWS right now. It is SD and letterbox, with a HUGE amount of black space at the bottom and a skinny top letterbox bar. Do they not have a HD monitor in the building? It should be EMBARRASSING that this product is being put out.

Wheel of Fortune just started, the line is still there, a bit smaller, but still there on recorded HD.

hookbill

03-14-09, 04:35 PM

Well WEWS didn't go network at 4:30, they did go HD Wheel of Fortune and there is no black line on my HD set.

nickdawg

03-14-09, 04:56 PM

Well WEWS didn't go network at 4:30, they did go HD Wheel of Fortune and there is no black line on my HD set.

Your TV must have more overscan than mine. I still see a small line. Not as big as before, but it is still present.

hookbill

03-14-09, 05:08 PM

shooter21198

03-14-09, 05:15 PM

hookbill

03-14-09, 05:20 PM

I guess that explains why those channels (HD, A&E FOOD, HDTV HISTORY UNIVERSAL HD NET HD NET MOVIES and MOJO (Somebody should inform TW it's no longer MOJO ). Many of the HBO channels no Showtime channels are involved. All Encore channels seem to be switching.) aren't currently working or something

All those channels are indeed working in my area and I checked with my TiVo not my cable box. If they were SDV now I wouldn't be able to get them.

nickdawg

03-14-09, 05:21 PM

I just got the SDV letter today too. It indeed does give a firm date of 4/9/2009 as the start of SDV.

On the other side of the letter is the affected channels and many channels will be affected on HD, A&E FOOD, HDTV HISTORY UNIVERSAL HD NET HD NET MOVIES and MOJO (Somebody should inform TW it's no longer MOJO :rolleyes:). Many of the HBO channels no Showtime channels are involved. All Encore channels seem to be switching.

Letter also mentions that the Tuner Adapter is available for TiVo users 4/1. It tells cable card tv owners to either get a box or take a hike, as we were told previously.

So if this date stays firm SDV is right around the corner, which would explain the delay on the second group of HD channels they are going to give us that nobody cares about. It will be interesting to see how the SARA/Navigator thing plays out.

See Hookbill. It looks like those channels will be coming on time, as they announced in that email on the Erie thread. The 3/31 batch may be in the existing bandwidth for some areas, but I'll bet the 4/29 batch will be SDV in all areas. Now that the tuning adapters are here(on 4/1), they can finally start utilizing the SDV system for popular channels. Many of the channels on my list are not SDV yet, and I can guarantee it is because of tuning adapters. They wouldn't make CNN, FOX News and the entire HD tier SDV without tuning adapters.

Also, do not expect Navigator before 4/9. I can guarantee that it is impossible to do it in the time we have left. TWC only downloads to one MODEL of box per week, just in case the box gets bricked during the download. That way they don't have a major crisis on their hands. However, for me I haven't had any serious issues with TWC updates.

nickdawg

03-14-09, 05:22 PM

I don't get the Encore channels, but according to my NAVIGATOR diagnostic screen, they are all SDV. The channel name even has SDV in it.

nickdawg

03-14-09, 05:27 PM

Just in case anyone needs it again:

http://www.timewarnercable.com/northeastohio/learn/cable/sdv/ordersdv.html

hookbill

03-14-09, 05:30 PM

See Hookbill. It looks like those channels will be coming on time, as they announced in that email on the Erie thread. The 3/31 batch may be in the existing bandwidth for some areas, but I'll bet the 4/29 batch will be SDV in all areas. Now that the tuning adapters are here(on 4/1), they can finally start utilizing the SDV system for popular channels. Many of the channels on my list are not SDV yet, and I can guarantee it is because of tuning adapters. They wouldn't make CNN, FOX News and the entire HD tier SDV without tuning adapters.

That letter doesn't mean a thing until it actually happens. How can you possibly rely on the accuracy of this letter that was obviously drawn up so long ago they didn't even bother to change MOJO to MGM?

Also, do not expect Navigator before 4/9. I can guarantee that it is impossible to do it in the time we have left. TWC only downloads to one MODEL of box per week, just in case the box gets bricked during the download. That way they don't have a major crisis on their hands. However, for me I haven't had any serious issues with TWC updates.

You crack me up nickdawg. You don't work for TW, you have no idea what they can or can't do in between now and that date.

black88mx6

03-14-09, 05:35 PM

The large amount of channels you refer to should only contain a couple of HD channels, however one of them I believe is STO so if your a tribe fan you may want to take the box.

I really don't see why you don't want the box. I've been using it for my wife's HD television and for all purposes I think it works just fine.

Who knows when Tru 2 way will be offered. Sony is the one behind this, I've never fully understood it to be honest.

The HD channels listed in my area are as follows, it is more than just a couple.

433 Big Ten Network
435 SportTime Ohio
436 HD Sports
444 A&E HD
445 HGTV HD
446 Food HD
447 History HD
470 Universal HD

As for the box, there are a few reasons, but to me they are big.

1. The cable box acts as the TV's tuner for SD and HD material. Compared to the TV's built in internal tuner with a cable card, the cable box picture quality sucks (regardless of input type or box type). Current generation internal tuners are optimized for that panels resolution etc, and use much better components than those of cable boxes.

2. The extra cables and power requirements of a cable box makes the setup more complex than it needs to be. Hanging a tv on the wall works best with just one power outlet and a cable connection. Having another remote around doesn't help either.

4. Small TV's for use in the kitchen don't need to have separate boxes that again use power and valuable counter space.

5. The extra cost of renting cable boxes make adding additional TV's more expensive over their lifetime. Cable boxes also draw power even when turned off, adding to your electric bill.

6. We are not talking about 80's technology here, we are talking about cable cards. This technology is less than 5 years old, and works well. Low pickup of this was due to cable companies dislike of the product because it lacked high profit options like PPV.

Tru2way will be the next cable card for those of us that wish to use one. Unfortunately, Time Warner has decided to force SDV upon us without having this new alternative available in this area yet.

BTW, Sony was on of the last mfg to sign on to the Tru2way - they are not the developers. OCAP and Tru2way is part of the OpenCable initiative, and that is managed by CableLabs. Cable labs board of directors is the CEO list of most cable companies.

nickdawg

03-14-09, 05:43 PM

You crack me up nickdawg. You don't work for TW, you have no idea what they can or can't do in between now and that date.

I lived through the navigator transition last year. The old Pioneer box I had got Navigator on 3/18. The SA 8300HD got Navigator in the last week of April. In all that time, one box was upgraded per week. Do I need to list all the equipment? I will.

SA (MDN)
8000
8000HD
8300
8300HD
3150
3150HD
3250HD
2000

Pioneer (MDN)
BD-V1000

SA-OCAP (ODN)
8300HDC
4250HDC

And I'm sure it only gets worse in the ex-Adelphia areas where equipment from smaller companies is left over. Plus there's Motorolla equipment in some areas that would have to be upgraded or replaced. You see Hook, I had a good feeling they were going to wait on Navigator. SDV is their main concern. If they can run SDV on what's there now, they'll do it.

hookbill

03-14-09, 05:43 PM

The HD channels listed in my area are as follows, it is more than just a couple.

433 Big Ten Network
435 SportTime Ohio
436 HD Sports
444 A&E HD
445 HGTV HD
446 Food HD
447 History HD
470 Universal HD

As for the box, there are a few reasons, but to me they are big.

1. The cable box acts as the TV's tuner for SD and HD material. Compared to the TV's built in internal tuner with a cable card, the cable box picture quality sucks (regardless of input type or box type). Current generation internal tuners are optimized for that panels resolution etc, and use much better components than those of cable boxes.

2. The extra cables and power requirements of a cable box makes the setup more complex than it needs to be. Hanging a tv on the wall works best with just one power outlet and a cable connection. Having another remote around doesn't help either.

4. Small TV's for use in the kitchen don't need to have separate boxes that again use power and valuable counter space.

5. The extra cost of renting cable boxes make adding additional TV's more expensive over their lifetime. Cable boxes also draw power even when turned off, adding to your electric bill.

6. We are not talking about 80's technology here, we are talking about cable cards. This technology is less than 5 years old, and works well. Low pickup of this was due to cable companies dislike of the product because it lacked high profit options like PPV.

Tru2way will be the next cable card for those of us that wish to use one. Unfortunately, Time Warner has decided to force SDV upon us without having this new alternative available in this area yet.

BTW, Sony was on of the last mfg to sign on to the Tru2way - they are not the developers. OCAP and Tru2way is part of the OpenCable initiative, and that is managed by CableLabs. Cable labs board of directors is the CEO list of most cable companies.

It would have saved you some typing if you read the thread, I already listed the HD channels.;)

As far as Tru2way goes, I'm just going by what I remember a long time ago. No argument here from me.

nickdawg

03-14-09, 06:12 PM

As for the box, there are a few reasons, but to me they are big.

1. The cable box acts as the TV's tuner for SD and HD material. Compared to the TV's built in internal tuner with a cable card, the cable box picture quality sucks (regardless of input type or box type). Current generation internal tuners are optimized for that panels resolution etc, and use much better components than those of cable boxes.

Disagree. My TV looks horrible in comparison to the cable box. If I tune to channel 54-Duscovery on the TV tuner, it's analog. Awful. If I tune to 54 or 130 on the cable box, it's digital. Night and day difference. I've never seen a cable card. I'm doubtful there's any difference. Hookbill, ever see a PQ difference between the Tivos and the TWC box?

The way to make the cable box picture look better is to disable AUTO (native resolution tuning) if you use HDMI. With Component, disable 480 i/p. 480 i/p look horrible on HDTV sets. If you have a 720p set, use 720p. If you have a 1080i set, use 1080i.

2. The extra cables and power requirements of a cable box makes the setup more complex than it needs to be. Hanging a tv on the wall works best with just one power outlet and a cable connection. Having another remote around doesn't help either.

Using HDMI, it would be one cable. Using Component, the Y, Pr, Pb are three cables attached together. L/R audio are the same.

For me, I could care less about the number of cables. It's spider web spaghetti city behind my TV with the TV, cable box, DVR player, surround sound system. Not having a cable box would do nothing to clear up that mess.

Actually, the TWC remote allows me to use LESS remotes. The SA DVR remote controls my TV, DVR, surround system volume and DVD. Plus there's a button if you had a VHS machine. If I used my TV tuner, I'd need two remotes(one for surround sound volume and one for TV controls).

4. Small TV's for use in the kitchen don't need to have separate boxes that again use power and valuable counter space.

Agreed here. I don't have a HDTV in the kitchen. But when I do, it will have a box. Right now I can get away with having it connected to the RF output of one of my other cable boxes, doing a "simulcast".

5. The extra cost of renting cable boxes make adding additional TV's more expensive over their lifetime. Cable boxes also draw power even when turned off, adding to your electric bill.

It's a cost I'm willing to pay, especially for the DVR, to have the 'security blanket' that if anything goes wrong, I can get a FREE replacement. Also, I know I'm going to have the latest technology(software updates, equipment updates) without buying and re-buying equipment. And the electricity, give me a break!! Almost everything uses some electricity when turned off. Unless you unplug EVERYTHING when you're not home, it's a moot point.

6. We are not talking about 80's technology here, we are talking about cable cards. This technology is less than 5 years old, and works well. Low pickup of this was due to cable companies dislike of the product because it lacked high profit options like PPV.

Umm, if you can't get all the channels currently available, it might as well be. It's absurd to pay for cable service and not be able to access all the channels. A few bucks more on a cable box is worth it, to get all the new HD channels.

Tru2way will be the next cable card for those of us that wish to use one. Unfortunately, Time Warner has decided to force SDV upon us without having this new alternative available in this area yet.

I'm glad TWC didn't piss in the wind(and on their customers) and wait for some far-fetched idea. Oooohhhh, I'm really gonna be crying about how SDV was "forced" on me as I watch USA HD and Discovery HD! :p

Normally I don't defend TWC, but in these cases I do. I 100% agree with them NOT signing on tru2way. OCAP was enough of a nightmare that set us back. In the summer of 2007 they had to get that set up. Maybe we would have had SDV sooner? Even Mr. Jascoe pointed out OCAP as one of the delays. If they had to deal with this tru2way crapola, we'd still be waiting for SDV and new channels. We wouldn't even be THIS far along!!

Normally I despise Big Business, but in this case I defend it. I pay a buttload of money for the service I have. I want HDTV channels, HBO, a DVR, a program guide on the TV in my bedroom. Because I pay for these cable boxes, I am ENTITLED to these SDV channels that go along with it. I get mad at "clear QAM" when people want more without paying more. I can think of a certain person I "got into it with" over USA HD last summer! ;):p

nickdawg

03-14-09, 06:14 PM

It would have saved you some typing if you read the thread, I already listed the HD channels.;)

As far as Tru2way goes, I'm just going by what I remember a long time ago. No argument here from me.

Hey Hookbill, can you scan that channel list/letter and post it here? I'd like to see what channels are on your list. I think it might be different, because I don't remember FOOD, HGTV or History being on the SDV list. :confused::confused::confused:

hookbill

03-14-09, 06:31 PM

Hey Hookbill, can you scan that channel list/letter and post it here? I'd like to see what channels are on your list. I think it might be different, because I don't remember FOOD, HGTV or History being on the SDV list. :confused::confused::confused:

I will get that for you. TW did sign on for tru2way. It will replace SDV.

Vchat20

03-14-09, 06:35 PM

hookbill

03-14-09, 06:43 PM

black88mx6

03-14-09, 07:26 PM

Disagree. My TV looks horrible in comparison to the cable box. If I tune to channel 54-Duscovery on the TV tuner, it's analog. Awful. If I tune to 54 or 130 on the cable box, it's digital. Night and day difference. I've never seen a cable card. I'm doubtful there's any difference. Hookbill, ever see a PQ difference between the Tivos and the TWC box?

There is a big difference between the tuners in a Viso TV and a high end Pioneer or Sony XBR. Since you have never compared the difference between a cable card tv and cable box then I understand why you defend cable boxes. I have an open invitation for you to compare pictures on my Sony XBR1 or my Mitsubishi LCD's.

The way to make the cable box picture look better is to disable AUTO (native resolution tuning) if you use HDMI. With Component, disable 480 i/p. 480 i/p look horrible on HDTV sets. If you have a 720p set, use 720p. If you have a 1080i set, use 1080i.

These setting are a no-brainer, a polished turd is still a turd.

Using HDMI, it would be one cable. Using Component, the Y, Pr, Pb are three cables attached together. L/R audio are the same.

For me, I could care less about the number of cables. It's spider web spaghetti city behind my TV with the TV, cable box, DVR player, surround sound system. Not having a cable box would do nothing to clear up that mess.

Using HDMI is not just one cable; it is coax to cable box to HDMI to tv. Plus the extra power cable. My wall setups are clean with just one cable, there is no spider web and it is very simple to work on and keep clean. The TV hangs on the wall and looks like it is floating there. There are no cables to be seen. It is very easy to pull the TV out from the wall for different viewing angles, and still there is no mess.

Actually, the TWC remote allows me to use LESS remotes. The SA DVR remote controls my TV, DVR, surround system volume and DVD. Plus there's a button if you had a VHS machine. If I used my TV tuner, I'd need two remotes(one for surround sound volume and one for TV controls).

I have one remote, either the TV's original, or a Harmony. Not some cheap unit that comes from the cable company that may or not be programable and you can't see in the dark.

Agreed here. I don't have a HDTV in the kitchen. But when I do, it will have a box. Right now I can get away with having it connected to the RF output of one of my other cable boxes, doing a "simulcast".

And right now your avoiding the cost of an extra box too.

It's a cost I'm willing to pay, especially for the DVR, to have the 'security blanket' that if anything goes wrong, I can get a FREE replacement. Also, I know I'm going to have the latest technology(software updates, equipment updates) without buying and re-buying equipment. And the electricity, give me a break!! Almost everything uses some electricity when turned off. Unless you unplug EVERYTHING when you're not home, it's a moot point.

Too bad it's really not the latest technology, it’s built cheap from the components to the Navigator software. Time Warner will never give you the good stuff. This stuff is setup to work for everyone. It is the lowest common denominator of hardware and it has to work for everyone. It is probably the cheapest piece of hardware in your home theater setup.

Umm, if you can't get all the channels currently available, it might as well be. It's absurd to pay for cable service and not be able to access all the channels. A few bucks more on a cable box is worth it, to get all the new HD channels.

Your right it's absurd to pay for cable services and not be able to access them; that is why I have no problem asking for a significant discount for my service. I do pay for quality, not quantity. I do not feel that a cable box rental per month is worth it, just like not all HD channels are worth the bandwidth they use. SDV by design will not work for popular channels, this is why I believe that TWC will be adding some more quality NON SDV HD channels soon. Based on what I pay per month it may still be worth it to be a TWC cable card customer

I'm glad TWC didn't piss in the wind(and on their customers) and wait for some far-fetched idea. Oooohhhh, I'm really gonna be crying about how SDV was "forced" on me as I watch USA HD and Discovery HD! :p

Normally I don't defend TWC, but in these cases I do. I 100% agree with them NOT signing on tru2way. OCAP was enough of a nightmare that set us back. In the summer of 2007 they had to get that set up. Maybe we would have had SDV sooner? Even Mr. Jascoe pointed out OCAP as one of the delays. If they had to deal with this tru2way crapola, we'd still be waiting for SDV and new channels. We wouldn't even be THIS far along!!

The technology is out now and available, TWC did sign on for tru2way, they just have not deployed it yet. Remember who made ocap -- Cablelabs. TWC's CEO is one of the board members. OCAP is in effect a TWC product, and one way or another they will eat their own dogfood.

Normally I despise Big Business, but in this case I defend it. I pay a buttload of money for the service I have. I want HDTV channels, HBO, a DVR, a program guide on the TV in my bedroom. Because I pay for these cable boxes, I am ENTITLED to these SDV channels that go along with it. I get mad at "clear QAM" when people want more without paying more. I can think of a certain person I "got into it with" over USA HD last summer! ;):p

I am paying for it also, with three cablecard TV's that are less than 5 years old. So I am somehow not ENTITLED to these services also? If TWC can-not deliver the services I am interested in, then I will get them from services like HULU and NETFLIX and other content providers that bypass traditional closed cable (Big Business) companies who continue to force to "rent" their equipment.

black88mx6

03-14-09, 07:38 PM

Actually, tru2way won't replace SDV. It'll only make SDV more broadly available since it is essentially the capabilities of the current TW provided set-tops embedded in tv sets and consumer owned dvr's (non-tivo, this would be in the future market). Basically a two way tuner (finally), cablecard slot, and a separate internal 'box' to run OCAP applications. The functions for SDV are part of whatever OCAP applications are pushed to the system (in this case, Navigator)

long story short, it's the current cablecard capable tv's but with an embedded HDC/OCAP box. SDV will still be around since bandwidth is a luxury with these cable systems. Just tru2way will aid in making it more broadly available to the consumer base.

OCAP is the way of the future. The unfortunate thing though is that, being based on java, it has hefty resource requirements. And with the OCAP capable boxes still being in their infancy, the currently available models (mainly the 8300HDC and 4250HDC and possible some others. The newest unavailable Samsung and SA boxes exempt) have extremely low amounts of ram, processing power, etc. and is why Navigator is such a painful mess on them.

In short the government is forcing open cable standards. Cable cards was one step, OCAP is cable card v2.0

Surveys have shown that cable users want to simplify things and in general dislike cable boxes. If you didn't "have" to have one, would it still be sitting there? Do you want to rent this box each month?

My complaint here is the slow adaption and now abandonment of the original cable cards in less than 5 years. Without an alternative like tru2way, it makes cable service no different than satellite service. If I am forced to have a BOX, then I will pick the service with the best picture and programming and price.

Vchat20

03-14-09, 07:52 PM

black88mx6

03-14-09, 11:42 PM

Actually, the reason why the first version of the cablecard standard is being abandoned for tru2way is largely because none of the tv manufacturers or box makers bothered to put 2 way tuners in their equipment to accomodate these known advancements.

I don't know how true this is, as I remember quite a few of the first and second generation HDTV's had cable cards. What I remember was that the cable companies and cable labs were forced to make them available. This was ordered by the FCC to try and open up the cable box monopolies. Then the TV mfg started putting them in sets, and the cable companies refused to support them. After a couple of years the TV mfgs started taking them out, because of cost and low take-up of the product. It was a high end product that never made it down to the low end TV's. I believe that this was 90% the fault of the cable companies based on my and many documented experiences of customers trying to get one installed. Look at all the people with TIVO's who have trouble getting these installed. These installs are SIMPLE, there is no excuse for customers having these troubles.

When I first called for one, they told me that they didn't support them. Then I got word that they were not working and causing problems. After insistance that I get one, TWC finally brought one out, but the guy was never trained on them. Once I walked him though the install, he called in the number, it then worked for 3 years now without problems.

I have three of these TV's with cable cards. I had a similar experience with the tech each time I ordered one.

I firmly believe that the cable companies dragged their feet purposely on cable cards. Cable cards could not support two way guides and PPV. If cable cards were taken up in mass the loss in PPV and VOD rentals would have really hurt their bottom line.

For now I will keep the cable cards, but I don't have to like how TWC or the cable industry handled this entire issue.

Another issue that is arising that many don't know about is the download caps on cable modems. TWC is now testing these caps in some markets, and I firmly believe that it is to stop legitimate video download or VOIP service over a TWC internet connection (ie Roadrunner). There is no way most people would be able to get video (SE or HD) though their XBOX, or HULU or Netflix without running into these caps. This directly competes with their own phone and VOD service, so they will do everything they can to try it kill it, just like cable cards.

Vchat20

03-14-09, 11:47 PM

hookbill

03-15-09, 12:05 AM

Do some research and don't believe the armchair engineers words as truth. Cablecards have always been 2 way capable, but the devices they are put in need to have 2 way tuners. So far I have not seen any that have them.

With tru2way though, the whole premise is of course 2 way connectivity so they MUST use 2 way tuners or no certification.

Absolutely correct, TiVO has hardware for one way communication the tuner adapters will provide the meanS of allowing that hardware to work with SDV.

nickdawg

03-15-09, 12:14 AM

toby10

03-15-09, 07:20 AM

................

Using HDMI is not just one cable; it is coax to cable box to HDMI to tv. Plus the extra power cable. My wall setups are clean with just one cable, there is no spider web and it is very simple to work on and keep clean. The TV hangs on the wall and looks like it is floating there. There are no cables to be seen. It is very easy to pull the TV out from the wall for different viewing angles, and still there is no mess.
...........................

Same here, two wall mount applications, one with full surround sound speakers, not a cable in sight.
Though both TV's have multiple cables running too them. ;)

Also the cablecard debacle is not just due to the cable co's resistance to accepting them, the cablecard mfr's and TV mfr's are also to blame for putting out products that often don't work well together. Almost every cable co that offers a cablecard has run into certain make/model/brand of TV's that simply do not work with their offered cablecard. This, in turn, has turned the consumer off to the entire concept.

Vchat20

03-15-09, 07:41 AM

Same here, two wall mount applications, one with full surround sound speakers, not a cable in sight.
Though both TV's have multiple cables running too them. ;)
Precisely. While I'm not nearly as nitpicky about this stuff as some other people, nor is my setup in a state worthy of taking cleanliness to a meticulous extreme, at least I know a number of ways to keep the box(es?) and cables and keep it all well hidden while functional so it certainly isn't an excuse. Even if an in-wall wiring setup is not an option, I've seen people use raceways painted to match the wall in order to conceal the power and A/V cables and it still looks really clean compared to just dangling wires. And the boxes are easy enough to hide and keep functional. Cabinets, IR extenders, IR-to-RF conversion...

Also the cablecard debacle is not just due to the cable co's resistance to accepting them, the cablecard mfr's and TV mfr's are also to blame for putting out products that often don't work well together. Almost every cable co that offers a cablecard has run into certain make/model/brand of TV's that simply do not work with their offered cablecard. This, in turn, has turned the consumer off to the entire concept.

This is also another very valid and prime reason for cablecard's unfortunate failure that goes on the already expanding list. I'd also wager that, indirectly, a very loose cablelabs spec on the technology also led to these issues in the first place.

I haven't read up too much on the actual technical spec for either the original cablelabs spec or tru2way, but to me it seems they just left way too much to question and up to decision by the CE manufacturers with the original cablecard system. But with tru2way at least from the known mandates including 2 way hardware and OCAP support, they have made it all a bit more strict and thus (hopefully) more resilient against equipment manufacturers cutting corners to save a few dimes. Either they follow the spec as given to be certified and offer cablecard slots again, or get left out of the party.

On a completely separate note, I'm hoping some of these manufacturers start using mpeg decoders that do mpeg4 as well as mpeg2 if only for future proofing. While it's still a LONG ways off for cablecos, it's inevitable. This isn't even mentioning the fact that the ATSC specification has long had support for mpeg4 from the beginning as an optional codec (although just about every ATSC device out there can only do mpeg2).

toby10

03-15-09, 08:52 AM

Precisely. While I'm not nearly as nitpicky about this stuff as some other people, nor is my setup in a state worthy of taking cleanliness to a meticulous extreme, at least I know a number of ways to keep the box(es?) and cables and keep it all well hidden while functional so it certainly isn't an excuse. Even if an in-wall wiring setup is not an option, I've seen people use raceways painted to match the wall in order to conceal the power and A/V cables and it still looks really clean compared to just dangling wires. And the boxes are easy enough to hide and keep functional. Cabinets, IR extenders, IR-to-RF conversion...........

Is a "raceway" those 1/4 circular things I've seen to hide the cables going up the wall? If so, yeah, those would be useful to help conceal the cable clutter. My setups are 100% in-wall including (not up to code) power outlets, but I had considered those painted-to-match wall covers to conceal the cables.

I agree about the IR extenders as well as a "must have" in such clean setups. All A/V components (save TV and speakers) are in built-in solid wood cabinets and completely hidden from view. ;)

Vchat20

03-15-09, 09:17 AM

toby10

03-15-09, 09:37 AM

Aha. Took me a while to find it. But the photo this poster put up here is the exact thing I had in my head visually when this topic cropped up: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r21725817-

Take the boxes and hide them inside said cabinet and you can't tell me (unless you are overly anal) that those 'wiremolds' (I don't know the exact technical term for them. And now that I consider it, raceways are something entirely different. But that photo is what I was particularly referring to) would not be much cleaner and more desirable than dangling wires and boxes out in the open.

And like I said: Hide the boxes, get an IR extender, program a Harmony for every function of the full system. Bada bing, bada boom.

Yup, much cleaner look than just visible cables. Although, for *me*, I'd still go in-wall cabling even if the components were right below the TV as pictured (preferably hidden components), as the proximity of components to the TV would be a breeze project. This is exactly what we have in the bedroom.

Now doing an all in-wall A/V cabling setup where all A/V components are on a completely separate wall than the destination TV, now there is a project let me tell ya! ;)

Vchat20

03-15-09, 09:45 AM

Very true. If in-wall is an option, that'd obviously be first to go for sure. And if the AV components were on a separate wall, even moreso! No yucky cables strung along the floor, around a corner, up the wall...

But even when some situations arise that negate that option; Such as what would probably be the case in my house where the tv and AV components are moved wall-to-wall on a semi-regular basis maybe a couple times a year; Those 'raceways' would still be a perfectly viable option depending on permanency (I'd imagine either average sized screws or adhesive. Both not much damage on the wall.) and keep the ugliness out of the equation.

Heck, as it is right now; Even though I still have the 'dangling cable blues'; I've at least looped up the cable slack and zip tied it to the back of the tv mount and it's at least kept a large amount of clutter out of it.

I think Home AV installation, just as is about any other situation, relies completely on ingenuity and invention. Without these, you'll never make it. ;)

Anyways, we've strayed far enough off topic by now. :) So how about that TWC huh? Can't wait to get those new channels. :P (In all seriousness, I hope The Weather Channel HD hits the radar soon)

black88mx6

03-15-09, 09:53 AM

toby10

03-15-09, 09:54 AM

Very true. If in-wall is an option, that'd obviously be first to go for sure. And if the AV components were on a separate wall, even moreso! No yucky cables strung along the floor, around a corner, up the wall...

But even when some situations arise that negate that option; Such as what would probably be the case in my house where the tv and AV components are moved wall-to-wall on a semi-regular basis maybe a couple times a year; Those 'raceways' would still be a perfectly viable option depending on permanency (I'd imagine either average sized screws or adhesive. Both not much damage on the wall.) and keep the ugliness out of the equation.

Heck, as it is right now; Even though I still have the 'dangling cable blues'; I've at least looped up the cable slack and zip tied it to the back of the tv mount and it's at least kept a large amount of clutter out of it.

I think Home AV installation, just as is about any other situation, relies completely on ingenuity and invention. Without these, you'll never make it. ;)

Indeed. ;)

And they offer a great alternative if one is in an apartment/rental situation as well. Or, shop around for a wife/girlfriend that does not want to redecorate and move furniture around every other month. :eek::D

black88mx6

03-15-09, 09:59 AM

Aha. Took me a while to find it. But the photo this poster put up here is the exact thing I had in my head visually when this topic cropped up: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r21725817-

Take the boxes and hide them inside said cabinet and you can't tell me (unless you are overly anal) that those 'wiremolds' (I don't know the exact technical term for them. And now that I consider it, raceways are something entirely different. But that photo is what I was particularly referring to) would not be much cleaner and more desirable than dangling wires and boxes out in the open.

And like I said: Hide the boxes, get an IR extender, program a Harmony for every function of the full system. Bada bing, bada boom.

Can this be done? Sure, will it ever look good, maybe.

All add extra complexity that is just not needed, and make it more difficult for each TV that is added to a house. The short of it for me, if I have to have a box, I would not use TWC for my video content.

Vchat20

03-15-09, 10:08 AM

To each his own...

Personally I'm one of those who is apologetic to TWC and other Cableco's on this specific topic. You don't have the option of no boxes on Sat or IPTV providers because it's technically not feasible (though it has been tried with boxes integrated into certain tv's, but failed epically.) and they have had the advantage of making that requirement right from the getgo. But because Cableco's started out the way they did with analog being directly compatible with cable ready tv's and has grandfathered that ability and probably continue to do so even past 2010, everyone is going apeshit because they are trying to move forward technologically.

At least with tru2way, we are slowly going back to the cable ready style days where all the equipment needed to get all the services the cable provider can give you is included in the tru2way sets. And just like the advent of cableready sets, it means either using an external tuner for existing sets or upgrade. Take your pick.

Honestly though, I think they should just go the way of this DTV transition and just shut off the full analog spectrum and tell people to live with it or shove it. But that'll never happen. The FCC would be all over them like sh*t on a pig.

Vchat20

03-15-09, 10:13 AM

Getting your content through Hulu? Are you kidding!!! There's no way in HELL I'd watch that. I didn't get a high definition, high resolution TV to watch You Tube quality video on. Occasionally I will watch Bit Torrents when necessary, only because they are 800x???, a higher resolution that SDTV and online streaming. But not as high as 720p HDTV.

Honestly nickdawg, I think anyone who is bold enough these days to forego classic subscription tv service for the online video services has all their pros and cons lined up and are completely aware of what they are getting.

Just because you flipflop and can't stand anything but your perfect vision of what tv should be, doesn't mean everyone else does. And FYI, there is a large handful of 720p+ material on hulu if you look hard enough. So does youtube even for the properly uploaded videos. And while compression isn't the BEST with clearly noticable artifacts, it's livable if you realise ahead of time this is exactly what you are getting and don't raise expectations.

black88mx6

03-15-09, 10:16 AM

Also the cablecard debacle is not just due to the cable co's resistance to accepting them, the cablecard mfr's and TV mfr's are also to blame for putting out products that often don't work well together.

Cablelabs designed the specifications for cablecards. Scientific Atlanta (now CISCO) and Motorola make them, along with the chipsets that allow the cable cards to work inside of the TV. This technology had to be licensed and certified with Cablelabs before it could be sold. Every device sold that had a cable card, had to be tested and certified by Cablelabs BEFORE it was sold. We already know who owns and operates Cablelabs, so who ultimately was at fault here?

toby10

03-15-09, 10:24 AM

Can this be done? Sure, will it ever look good, maybe.

All add extra complexity that is just not needed, and make it more difficult for each TV that is added to a house. The sort of it for me, if I have to have a box, I would not use TWC for my video content.

Well, "complexity" works both ways. ;)

With a cablecard in the TV you now must get a digital line out from the TV to your AVR for surround. So much for your one cable solution. :cool:

But I do embrace the cablecard as a viable alternative to the cable STB where and when it can be used.

black88mx6

03-15-09, 10:29 AM

I think anyone who is bold enough these days to forego classic subscription tv service for the online video services has all their pros and cons lined up and are completely aware of what they are getting.

While not replacing my subscription TV yet, it so far is good way to subsidize our family viewing, allowing me to keep a lower level of cable TV service. Those channels going SDV may not be missed as much.

toby10

03-15-09, 10:40 AM

Cablelabs designed the specifications for cablecards. Scientific Atlanta (now CISCO) and Motorola make them, along with the chipsets that allow the cable cards to work inside of the TV. This technology had to be licensed and certified with Cablelabs before it could be sold. Every device sold that had a cable card, had to be tested and certified by Cablelabs BEFORE it was sold. We already know who owns and operates Cablelabs, so who ultimately was at fault here?

Don't know, and as a consumer I don't care. ;)

We've had this very same discussion in here months ago. "Who is at fault". Blame Cablelabs, cable co's, TV mfr's, stb mfr's, .....whomever. Bottom line is that it was *very* glitchy and there were numerous problems and incompatibilities. Might be all worked out now, I dunno, but it was a BIG mess and consumers are quite turned off to the idea. :( So much so that many TV mfr's stopped including Cablecard availability in their sets as consumer demand for it plummeted.

black88mx6

03-15-09, 10:43 AM

Well, "complexity" works both ways. ;)

With a cablecard in the TV you now must get a digital line out from the TV to your AVR for surround. So much for your one cable solution. :cool:

But I do embrace the cablecard as a viable alternative to the cable STB where and when it can be used.

True, but I only have one of my TV's setup this way. Others have sound bars, which do not require a home theater setup for them to sound good. Some of the TV's have HDMI connections for XBOX, and Media Center hardware, but all work as TV's without having to have any of this other equipment turned on.

Mine is not a crusade to bring back the cablecard, it is more of a request to get the alternatives out, and that having a box should not be the only way things can be done. TWC should be offering Tru2way now, and then allow its customers to transition from cablecard 1.0 setups. Too bad there is not enough of us around to scream loud like analog users would if they tried to pull the plug on it.

toby10

03-15-09, 11:17 AM

True, but I only have one of my TV's setup this way. Others have sound bars, which do not require a home theater setup for them to sound good. Some of the TV's have HDMI connections for XBOX, and Media Center hardware, but all work as TV's without having to have any of this other equipment turned on.

Mine is not a crusade to bring back the cablecard, it is more of a request to get the alternatives out, and that having a box should not be the only way things can be done. TWC should be offering Tru2way now, and then allow its customers to transition from cablecard 1.0 setups. Too bad there is not enough of us around to scream loud like analog users would if they tried to pull the plug on it.

Same here, just the TV and cable box are turned on if I don't desire surround.
Soundbars are a great compromise, but a compromise nonetheless. ;)

Again, I'm totally on your side with alternatives like Cablecard and True2Way. The more the better. But until the entire industry gets their act together and makes these alternatives a consumer friendly reality then it's all just wishful thinking. :)

The same is happening with the HDMI specs and CE devices utilizing HDMI. There are numerous problems, glitches, incompatibilities, and handshake issues with HDMI CE devices that are frustrating both consumers and professional home theatre installers. So much so that many home theatre installers are foregoing HDMI connections and going back to Component video connections simply because they want to avoid the customer service calls they will inevitably get when utilizing HDMI.

Like the idea and concept of Cablecards, HDMI is incredible and simplistic when it works (luckily, all my HDMI devices work fine). But when one HDMI device does not "play well with others" it becomes a consumer nightmare and who is to blame (finger pointing) is of little value to the operator who just wants to play a Barney DVD to stop his kid from crying! :D

hookbill

03-15-09, 01:02 PM

Per your request, nickdawg:

BeginninAgp ri9l ,2 009
Disney XD
Nick Toons
The N
PBS Kids Sprout
Boomerang
Nick Too
Discovery Kids
DIY
Fine Living
Access TV
Comer Store
ONry4U
Gems TV
America's Auction Network
Hollywood Celebrlty Products
CelebrityS hopping
TV Superstore
The Jewelry Channel
ShoppingP lus
Ovation
LifetimeR eaWl omen
TV One
VillageT V
Sleuth
BBC America
Cunent TV
LOGO
Fox Reality
Sundance
Flix
Encore
Encore Love
Encore Mysteries
102
104
105
108
109
110
111
157
158
185
186
147
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
210
211
218
225
226
227
228
281
282
290
291
292

Encore Drama
EncoreW AMI
EncoreW estems
EncoreA ction
FCS Atlantic
FCS Central
FCS Pacific
CollegeS portsT V
NHL Network
NBA TV
TennisC hannel
Fuel TV
Outdoor Channel
ccw-9
Word Network
INSP
I Life
Daystar
FamilyL and
TBN
TWC Infomercials
Big Ten Network HD
HD Sports
Sportslime Ohio HD
HD Sports
A&E HD
HGTV HD
Food HD
History HD
UniversaHl D
HD Net
HD Nei Movies
473 MOJO
485/710 HD PPV Events
610 HBOW
61 1 HBO2 W
612 HBOS ignatureW
613 HBO FamilyW
614 HBO ComedyW
615 HBO Zone W
741-754 NHLC enterl ce/MLB
761-770 NBA/MLS
781-7BOE SPNG ameP lan/FuCllo urt
801 Galavision
805 Mun2
uUCr Uanal JUr
807 CNN En Espafiol
808 History En Espaflol
809 DiscoveryE nE spaflol
810 La Familia
81 1 Disney XD En Espafrol
812 BoomerangE nE spaflol
813 ESPN Deportes
A14 Fox Snorts Fn Fsoafrol
815 MTV Tr3s
816 CineLatino
851 ART Arabic
652 fiAt tntemailonal
853 TV Asia
854 DWTV
455 Lee tv
857 Filipino Channel
858 TV5 Monde
859 TV Japan
860 TV Russia
293
294
295
296
319
320
321
322
324
32s
327
328
329
330
375
386
387
388
389
390
39'l
399
433
436
444
445
446
447
470
471
472

Sorry about the formatting, I had a bit of trouble with this. Also missing are 212, 221, 435 - STO HD Sports.

Vchat20

03-15-09, 01:58 PM

If it's one thing I have said a thousand times and will continue to say a thousand times more till I have every last person in this thread chanting it like zombified cable brains: You can't please everyone all of the time!

This particularly goes towards the arguments over the past few pages. TWC has limited bandwidth. This we all know. They have an upper limit of anywhere from 110-125 6MHZ channels that can either be used as analog NTSC, QAMs for any combination of SD or HD channels, QAMs for HSI download channels, and QAMs for Digital Phone channels. FYI: Upload channels for both HSI and Digital Phone as well as the digital cable return path are kept on the lowest frequencies well below analog channels 1 and 2 so don't count into the available 110-125 count.

Out of those 110-125 we currently have probably an average of 80 analog channels as a wild guess. This leaves 30-45 6MHZ channels left to share between HSI, Digital Phone, or combinations of SD/HD digital channels.

Now out of that 30-45 lets just say we have 1 spared for digital phone (per node, a single 38mbit feed for all customers in that area is probably WAY more than enough bandwidth without overloading the system) and then 4 for HSI download channel. Now we are down to 25-40 left just for digital tv services. And some of this, still, needs to be set aside strictly for VOD. Ok, take out another 5 for VOD.

20-35 left for tv channels. We know MAXIMUM we can fit 4 HD per QAM but realistically 3. And it's been a while but I seem to remember 10-12 SD per QAM. So figure out some combination thereof and do your own math.

See the problem?

Now what am I trying to get at here? Simple: TWC, with having such a large customer base plus investors/stockholders, they have to try and please as many people as possible within their feasible limits. And so far we have these people to please:

Those who want to keep around as much analog as possible.
Those who want more HD
Those who despise SDV and don't want it to take over
Those who want faster HSI speeds

I could go on. And for some, they even mix and match these priorities to the point of conflicting. You certainly can't keep tons of analog filled while adding more channels, more HD, and keep SDV out of it. Just not technically possible.

As far as I am concerned, TWC is taking a logical and reasonable set of plans to advance things within what limits they have been handed by cable gods. SDV is being implemented in a tip toed fashion. Their provided set tops are capable of it already. Tivo users will be getting the free tuning adapters soon to sort out that chunk of customers which will probably be right about the time they start going full throttle with SDV barring any possible issues with either getting SARA doing SDV or moving those boxes to Navigator.

Users of any cablecard devices but Tivo's will be left in the dust but that customer base is nearly non-existant anyhow (no offense to black88mx6, but I can probably count the NEO TWC customers who rely primarily on cablecard tv sets on one hand. Maybe two.) and as it is, compatibility with SDV is something that should be blamed on the tv manufacturers, not TWC. The original cablecard spec has been capable of and supported the facilities to work with SDV from the very beginning. Albeit optional, they have been there. Just TV manufacturers left it out for cost reasons like I stated earlier. Tivo is certainly capable even though using the original cablecard spec. So why can't cablecard tv sets do it? At the absolute least, they could have installed a usb port on the tv and offered firmware updates for it. Almost every single LCD and Plasma these days can update their firmware just like any modern piece of electronics.

Now tru2way sets are already around the corner and with OCAP boxes and software (as is seen with Navigator) already out in the real world, support from TWC for tru2way sets including SDV, PPV, VOD, and any other custom app support is just a short ways away. Keep in mind that the idea behind OCAP is to make the software universal rather than having to compile it for each different box model. So the same exact software image loaded on the HDC boxes can be sent to the up and coming tru2way sets and work right away if they wanted. OCAP is basically an embedded Java VM just like the Java VM on your computer. It's all cross platform stuff and doesn't care what hardware the code is running on as long as the VM is there.

As much as I hate to point out the blatant truth: black88mx6, you are in the miniscule minority here and TWC has bigger fish to fry especially when it comes to pleasing their customers. And even if there were more than a small handful of cablecard customers in the area, I doubt many of them would be too upset to be forced to use a TW provided box if it came to losing their favorite channels to SDV.

Another thing I have also stated time and time again is that Satellite and IPTV providers have never been shackled to requiring must-carry analog signals (even FiOS which is perfectly capable of analog cable channels and has done so in the very beginning and is even classified as a cable company but never got bothered when they went all digital.) but Cableco's must? Once again, people are asking for WAY too much and the FCC is putting the screws to them as well. I'd be happy if they just left channels 2-13 and got rid of every other analog channel. But then a large part of the customer base would probably get pissed because their 80s analog lineup disappeared.

Anyways, off my soap box now. Have a good lazy sunday afternoon. :rolleyes:

*P.S. None of my numbers mentioned have been meant as hard numbers, but should be fairly close to actuality. But don't quote me on it being 100% perfect.

hookbill

03-15-09, 02:12 PM

If it's one thing I have said a thousand times and will continue to say a thousand times more till I have every last person in this thread chanting it like zombified cable brains: You can't please everyone all of the time!

This particularly goes towards the arguments over the past few pages. TWC has limited bandwidth. This we all know. They have an upper limit of anywhere from 110-125 6MHZ channels that can either be used as analog NTSC, QAMs for any combination of SD or HD channels, QAMs for HSI download channels, and QAMs for Digital Phone channels. FYI: Upload channels for both HSI and Digital Phone as well as the digital cable return path are kept on the lowest frequencies well below analog channels 1 and 2 so don't count into the available 110-125 count.

Out of those 110-125 we currently have probably an average of 80 analog channels as a wild guess. This leaves 30-45 6MHZ channels left to share between HSI, Digital Phone, or combinations of SD/HD digital channels.

Now out of that 30-45 lets just say we have 1 spared for digital phone (per node, a single 38mbit feed for all customers in that area is probably WAY more than enough bandwidth without overloading the system) and then 4 for HSI download channel. Now we are down to 25-40 left just for digital tv services. And some of this, still, needs to be set aside strictly for VOD. Ok, take out another 5 for VOD.

20-35 left for tv channels. We know MAXIMUM we can fit 4 HD per QAM but realistically 3. And it's been a while but I seem to remember 10-12 SD per QAM. So figure out some combination thereof and do your own math.

See the problem?

Now what am I trying to get at here? Simple: TWC, with having such a large customer base plus investors/stockholders, they have to try and please as many people as possible within their feasible limits. And so far we have these people to please:

Those who want to keep around as much analog as possible.
Those who want more HD
Those who despise SDV and don't want it to take over
Those who want faster HSI speeds

I could go on. And for some, they even mix and match these priorities to the point of conflicting. You certainly can't keep tons of analog filled while adding more channels, more HD, and keep SDV out of it. Just not technically possible.

As far as I am concerned, TWC is taking a logical and reasonable set of plans to advance things within what limits they have been handed by cable gods. SDV is being implemented in a tip toed fashion. Their provided set tops are capable of it already. Tivo users will be getting the free tuning adapters soon to sort out that chunk of customers.

Users of any cablecard devices but Tivo's will be left in the dust but that customer base is nearly non-existant anyhow (no offense to black88mx6, but I can probably count the NEO TWC customers who rely primarily on cablecard tv sets on one hand. Maybe two.) and as it is, compatibility with SDV is something that should be blamed on the tv manufacturers, not TWC. The original cablecard spec has been capable of and supported the facilities to work with SDV from the very beginning. Albeit optional, they have been there. Just TV manufacturers left it out for cost reasons like I stated earlier.

Now tru2way sets are already around the corner and with OCAP boxes and software (as is seen with Navigator) already out in the real world, support from TWC for tru2way sets including SDV, PPV, VOD, and any other custom app support is just a short ways away. Keep in mind that the idea behind OCAP is to make the software universal rather than having to compile it for each different box model. So the same exact software image loaded on the HDC boxes can be sent to the up and coming tru2way sets and work right away if they wanted. OCAP is basically an embedded Java VM just like the Java VM on your computer. It's all cross platform stuff and doesn't care what hardware the code is running on as long as the VM is there.

As much as I hate to point out the blatant truth: black88mx6, you are in the miniscule minority here and TWC has bigger fish to fry especially when it comes to pleasing their customers. And even if there were more than a small handful of cablecard customers in the area, I doubt many of them would be too upset to be forced to use a TW provided box if it came to losing their favorite channels to SDV.

Another thing I have also stated time and time again is that Satellite and IPTV providers have never been shackled to requiring must-carry analog signals (even FiOS which is perfectly capable of analog cable channels and has done so in the very beginning and is even classified as a cable company but never got bothered when they went all digital.) but Cableco's must? Once again, people are asking for WAY too much and the FCC is putting the screws to them as well. I'd be happy if they just left channels 2-13 and got rid of every other analog channel. But then a large part of the customer base would probably get pissed because their 80s analog lineup disappeared.

Anyways, off my soap box now. Have a good lazy sunday afternoon. :rolleyes:

*P.S. None of my numbers mentioned have been meant as hard numbers, but should be fairly close to actuality. But don't quote me on it being 100% perfect.

I have to admit I was never a fan of SDV I constantly would worry that TW would not have the Tuner Adapters before converting. I am happy to see they arn't doing the same thing to us that they have done to other TiVo people by putting the carriage before the horse. They actually took steps to make sure we will be ready to adapt to SDV. Having said that, I welcome the change to SDV.

As far as people with cable cards in their sets, your absolutely right. You can't please everyone. Apparently there are more people in TW land using TiVos then just straight cable card in set users.

I have to also say that I really question the so called quality difference. I believe what black88mx6 says about the quality the question is does the average viewer see it? To that it's my opinion they do not. I think you have to be a real videophile to be able to see the difference.

nickdawg

03-15-09, 04:50 PM

Per your request, nickdawg:

(channel list)

Sorry about the formatting, I had a bit of trouble with this. Also missing are 212, 221, 435 - STO HD Sports.

Thanks, Hookbill. They are doing different channels in the Adelphia areas. None of those channels like Disney XD, Nicktoons, Sleuth, BBC America are SDV here in existing TWC land. They were never supposed to be(here).

ed1202

03-15-09, 08:30 PM

Yeah, I got my SDV letter yesterday too, although my channel list is shorter that yours hookbill.

Existing channels that will be delivered using SDV beginning April 9th, 2009:

102 Disney XD
104 Nick Toons
105 The N
108 PBS Kids Sprout
109 Boomerang
110 Nick Too
111 Discovery Kids
157 DIY
158 Fine Living
210 Ovation
212 Lifetime Real Women
217 TV One
218 Village TV
221 Sleuth
225 BBC America
226 Current TV
227 LOGO
228 Fox Reality
375 CCTV-9
386 Word Network
387 INSP
388 I Life
389 Daystar
390 Family Land
391 TBN
433 Big Ten Network HD
435 HD Sports
444 A&E HD
445 HGTV HD
446 Food HD
447 History HD
485/710 HD PPV Events

I like the line where it says "Starting on April 9, 2009, Time Warner Cable will begin providing a number of our existing, lesser-viewed channels via SDV, listed on the reverse of this letter."

Some of those they consider "lesser viewed"?

nickdawg

03-15-09, 08:47 PM

Some of those they consider "lesser viewed"?

I'd say those are "lesser viewed". Most are "never viewed" by me! :D:D:D

nickdawg

03-15-09, 11:47 PM

Hookbill, I sent you a PM.

It was personal error. It should be sent now.

hookbill

03-16-09, 12:00 AM

Hookbill, I sent you a PM.
I'm not ignoring you I didn't get it. My in box is empty. Try resending maybe something is wrong with site.

Vchat20

03-16-09, 12:02 AM

nickdawg

03-16-09, 12:09 AM

Kinda half surprised with that list of channels that's going SDV. I'm even more surprised though that the whole massive block of 24/7 infomercial and shopping channels aren't on there right off the bat.

I wish we had more channels on SDV here in original TWC land!!! But one piece of food news I read at twcneo.com is GSN will be moving to Digital Only next month. Looks like TWC is slowly freeing up analog bandwidth. Maybe they're afraid they won't be able to put all those new channels coming at the end of April on SDV? :confused:

But I'll be happy with ANY attempt to end analog channels. No matter how small!!

*Of course personally I'd like to blast away 20 or 30 analog channels at a time. Like the Terminator!! :D:D:D:D

Vchat20

03-16-09, 12:21 AM

nickdawg

03-16-09, 12:28 AM

For once I actually agree with you. And on a serious note, there are a handful of channels on analog that probably have a small enough viewership to deserve to be dropped and moved to the digital packages. Even if it was just like 5 or 6 channels dropped, that'd be a nice chunk of space to put towards digital and even SDV.

And yeah, I saw the note about GSN too. I know my mother who is an avid viewer is probably gonna be highly upset. Though she got over GAC moving to digital only so who knows.

"For once"? I always get that kind of reaction!! :D:D:D:D

I know a few channels that could be moved. How about VH1 Classic and MTV2? One of each channel is enough on analog. Lifetime Movies, Discovery Science, Hallmark, WE or Oxygen, HSN, Jewelry Television.

That's already eight channels. Could be 24 channels if they add three channels per analog. And I doubt most would be missed.

Introduce her to the wonders of Navigator!! "Imagine a world where you can see what is on TV with the press of a button!" :D:D:D

smoti17

03-16-09, 04:05 PM

hookbill

03-16-09, 04:45 PM

So I got the e-mail saying that SDV Tuning Adapters will be available from 1st April. And a letter saying that SDV for channels I watch will be enabled from 9th April. Given past performance, I have *no* confidence that TWC will meet either date, and most likely will not come up with the box before they start killing channels.

It could of course be deliberate:

http://www.multichannel.com/article/135121-FCC_Slaps_Time_Warner_Cable_Cox_On_Switched_Video.php

I have written back to "Liz Watson Director of Marketing" at <customerupdate@neo.rr.com> asking TWC to guarantee that they will deliver me a Tuning Adapter before they start doing SDV. If I don't get the answer I like, I'll be writing to Mr Fry again, reminding him that the FCC have fined other parts of TWC for this kind of failing. I'd suggest other Tivo owners here do the same.

It is completely ridiculous that I can't just buy a tuning adapter retail (AFAICT it has no crypto or subscriber management technology in it). With a bit of proper free market competition for these devices, I might be able to get something on reasonable timescales and that doesn't burn so much scarce space and power in my home as what TWC might get around to shipping...

Keith

Can I ask a question?

Dude, what is wrong with you?:D

I don't get your point at all. And let me tell you a few facts.

The only areas that I know of that successfully sued TW was Hawaii, and they didn't get that much out of the law suits. They had every right to sue because they had been deprived of their programming for some time.

We are not in the same situation as Hawaii, and if you read this thread all of the "information" you are giving us is old news.

I believe TW will deliver the tuner adapters in a timely manner as they assure us and further, why in the world would you even think about wanting to buy one when you are getting one for free?

I think you're pushing the panic button. I would say to you don't play your "Steve Fry" card until the time is right. I have TiVo and I'm not the least bit worried about SDV at this point.

So calm down, things will be OK.;) The tuner adapters are in the warehouse and have been since before that letter went out, I know, I have a contact in headend who phoned me about it 2 weeks ago to let me know.

You watch, it will work out just fine.:)

nickdawg

03-16-09, 05:21 PM

(sigh) Another annoyance. :D:D:D

First of all, why would you want to BUY a tuning adapter? TWC is giving the damn things away for free!!!! Second, why so heated over this issue? Even if SDV happened tomorrow and the adapters weren't here yet, what channels would be lost? Life time Real Women? Disney XD? Village TV? Daystar? Family Land? Whoopee!! I'm sure you'll survive without those crummy channels moving to SDV.

I suggest you take what Hookbill said as fact. He has a serious contact at TWC and they were right about when the tuning adapters came in and when they were going out.

Oh yeah, CALM DOWN!!! :D

In fact, TWC is almost doing TOO MUCH for Tivo viewers!! They even waited a week after tuning adapters are deployed to officially go live with SDV. Depending on how well they distribute the adapters most viewers should already have them before channels start migrating. Some people in the existing TWC land have been SOL since SDV started in February. But they would only be SOL if they subscribe to sports packages(which are all SDV).

hookbill

03-16-09, 05:27 PM

(sigh) Another annoyance. :D:D:D

First of all, why would you want to BUY a tuning adapter? TWC is giving the damn things away for free!!!! Second, why so heated over this issue? Even if SDV happened tomorrow and the adapters weren't here yet, what channels would be lost? Life time Real Women? Disney XD? Village TV? Daystar? Family Land? Whoopee!! I'm sure you'll survive without those crummy channels moving to SDV.

I suggest you take what Hookbill said as fact. He has a serious contact at TWC and they were right about when the tuning adapters came in and when they were going out.

Oh yeah, CALM DOWN!!! :D

That's a fact about the channels going over to SDV. Right now they don't affect me in the least, the only one I care about is STO. I record one or two shows on A&E, I could live without either one of them.

So long as I have that adaptor by 4/9 I'm cool, and I have every reason to believe they will do what they say.

smoti17

03-16-09, 06:31 PM

I guess what's wrong with me is 1. past experience with TWC (i'm in ex-Adelphia land), and 2. I don't like service providers forcing their clunky hardware on me (one of my reasons for getting a Tivo HD in the first place was to reduce the box count). If Hookbill says they have the kit in the warehouse ready to roll, cool, I am duly calmed.

Channel I'm worried about is BBC America, need my Dr Who fix :-) I agree the rest are mostly disposable.

And I certainly won't hassle Steve Fry unless needed until the 9th.
Here's hoping they do better than the channel switchover....

Michael P 2341

03-16-09, 06:34 PM

What provider do you use? TWC, OTA, D*, E* or other? If you're not TWC that may be the problem. I remember reading here before that something was wrong with WEWS HD and it was only on TWC, since they get a fiber feed from the station.

On my TV I have an option called "H/V Position Adjust". It can move from -15 to +15 horizontally and from +30 to -30 vertically. Normally this is always set to 0 for both(for a normal picture). Even setting the vertical position all the way to -30, there still is a slight line at the bottom of the screen.

I too have a SDTV with a HD box connected. When I watch that TV, I notice that the bottom bar is bigger than the top bar.

Edit, it is on that TV too. I put a piece of masking tape on the SDTV screen at the bottom of the picture inside the letterbox bars. Of all the channels I flipped through, only WEWS looked like that.I'm E* & OTA. Having OTA to fall back on when technical issues arise is a very good thing (living in the antenna farm helps too :D). Many times when technical issues arise, the OTA sometimes suffers from the same anomaly. Can't blame E* for that one, other times it's just the E* feed(s) (I get both the HD & SD feeds from E*).

WEWS does suffer from some issues with their digital signal, however it does not show up as a bar on the bottom on my TV (maybe it's because I'm already watching in letterbox so a slight shift upwards would not be noticeable).

Tell you what I can do, I can change the view on my receiver to give me a gray letterbox bar instead of a black bar, that way if there is a black bar on the bottom it would stand out. When do you see this bar, during the news, HD syndicated programming or SD programming?

nickdawg

03-16-09, 06:40 PM

I'm E* & OTA. Having OTA to fall back on when technical issues arise is a very good thing (living in the antenna farm helps too :D). Many times when technical issues arise, the OTA sometimes suffers from the same anomaly. Can't blame E* for that one, other times it's just the E* feed(s) (I get both the HD & SD feeds from E*).

WEWS does suffer from some issues with their digital signal, however it does not show up as a bar on the bottom on my TV (maybe it's because I'm already watching in letterbox so a slight shift upwards would not be noticeable).

Tell you what I can do, I can change the view on my receiver to give me a gray letterbox bar instead of a black bar, that way if there is a black bar on the bottom it would stand out. When do you see this bar, during the news, HD syndicated programming or SD programming?

I can change the letterbox bar color on the 4250HDC box(the one connected to the SDTV). I put on the World News Tonight with light gray bars. There is a noticeable amount of black space at the bottom of the screen. Underneath the bright colored ABC New background, there's a black line, then the letterbox bar.

So far I've seen it on SD upconvert from analog, network HD, syndicated HD and local HD. It's always on.

hookbill

03-16-09, 07:04 PM

What I saw on Saturday on WEWS with the SD broadcast on the HD channel on my set looked like some strange kind of letterbox. That's with the aspect set at 16x9. Almost like they did it on purpose.

But on the HD telecast at aspect of 16X9 it looks totally normal to me, no bars anywhere.

nickdawg

03-16-09, 07:16 PM

I put Wheel of Fortune on at 7. On the HD set, there's a small black line. On the SD set, there's a larger black line between the letterbox bar and the bottom of the picture.

Maybe if someone could take a direct capture from WEWS?

Cathode Kid

03-16-09, 10:41 PM

hookbill

03-16-09, 10:56 PM

Smoti17, Hookbill is correct on this one. You'll see. :D

I don't think he's ever confirmed it but I think Cathode Kid also has a contact at TW which is why he's confirming what I said.;)

Michael P 2341

03-16-09, 11:55 PM

I did the gray bar test on WEWS-DT and I do see the black bar at the bottom. The black bar is larger than the VBI I sometimes see on the top, much larger. The bar is almost 1/2" high on my 26" CRT. It's as if WEWS-HD is on it's own weird aspect ratio. So don't blame TWC, it's broadcast that way :mad:

I then when through all the other local stations. None of the other stations had this bar. Also I compared my E* HD local feed with the OTA feed and the bar was still there. The bar is there on both ABC network programs and the local news.

Here's another thing about WEWS-HD. I just got a DTV PAL Plus converter. The EPG gets no guide data for WEWS, while it does get all the other OTA station's guide data, including data that is not available on my E*622 (WDLI's guide data).

nickdawg

03-17-09, 12:17 AM

Over the past few days, I noticed that the VBI from the top of SD programming is gone. It looks like they "pushed" the picture too far up on the screen. If you look at the TV rating on ABC programming, the top of the rating bug is almost touching the top of the screen. The part that really annoys me is when the network ads and bugs are (a mile) away from the bottom of the screen. So much that I've actually watched the analog channel(which is flawless). I've totally given up on WEWHD. The damn black bar, and this afternoon during the news the picture was freezing up.

We're really going to be in serious trouble on June 12 when that analog verison of WEWS goes away. They're going to have to clean up their act in the HD broadcasting department, as then these issues will affect their ENTIRE viewing base, unlike now.

hookbill

03-17-09, 09:25 AM

toby10

03-17-09, 11:00 AM

............
Here's another thing about WEWS-HD. I just got a DTV PAL Plus converter. The EPG gets no guide data for WEWS, while it does get all the other OTA station's guide data, including data that is not available on my E*622 (WDLI's guide data).

Same here using both a Panasonic TV built in tuner and a STB Digital Tuner, no EPG data for WEWS via OTA. Although I rarely view such data for OTA, I am certain it was working for WEWS a few months ago because only WBNX 55 was not sending EPG data at that time. :confused:

hookbill

03-17-09, 12:51 PM

I got a hard copy letter of the email I received a while back concerning the Tuner Adapters. Exactly the same as the email with the exception of 1 itsy bitsy tiny footnote after saying they will be free. It now says "subject to change" which you can read into it what you will, however with my built in distrust of cable companies I'm certain this was put in there as a possible way to charge us in the future.

TW is smart, they leave a loop hole everywhere. The date of availability and time of SDV was not changed. Contact is promised via email or phone call for FEDex delivery of tuner adapter.

Vchat20

03-17-09, 12:56 PM

I'd almost wager a guess, thinking from the business side of things, that the tuning adapters will initially be free for existing customers just so they can retain the programming with no extra charges. Then sometime in the future after this whole mess is settled, they'll tack a charge/fee on them for new customers or existing customers newly using cablecards.

Again, just my guess. Take it as what you will. May also very well just be legal wording to cover their butts in the absolute worst case. Almost every business takes this action in one way or another.

ed1202

03-17-09, 03:11 PM

Finally after two weeks and numerous house calls (a tech was at the house literally almost every day) everything is working as it should. :D

It was a combination of 1.) bad lines to house 2.) amplification needed on line 3.) new cablecard 4.) correct permissioning of said cablecard. Whew!

Hook, that letter is probably in my mailbox today too. Typical TW. Why leave a firm statement alone when you can leave a big open gaping hole instead. ;)

nickdawg

03-17-09, 03:32 PM

toby10

03-17-09, 05:34 PM

I can't say I'm too upset over that!! ;) I wasn't too happy that I was being forced to fund a TARP fund for tuning adapters!! :D:D:D

I have my own name for TWC customers subsidizing tuning adapters:

Cable
Relief
Action
Plan

;)

What exactly do these "tuning adapters" do? Allow Tivo's to utilize SDV, PPV, VOD? Would such adapters ever be available for Cablecards allowing for PPV, SDV and VOD as well? *IF* I understand the Cablecard/Tru2Way current mess they will not allow for PPV, SDV, VOD....correct?

Vchat20

03-17-09, 05:43 PM

Basically the tuning adapters are usb based devices and will only initially be compatible with Tivo's and just add the return path communication back to the cableco that is vital for SDV to work. PPV and VOD and other services still will not be available because that sort of thing is cable plant specific and, in a way, proprietary. More specifically, SDV is more a 'standard' that is the same all across the board for every cableco and every region. PPV and VOD just for starters though has no specific standard and can vary from region to region. Tivo and all related parties involved can adapt to SDV, PPV and VOD they cannot.

For any other cablecard devices to be compatible with the tuning adapters they have to, at the very least, have a usb host port available and then they have to update their firmware/software to work with it. Without both of those, you are dead in the water. And at this point, outside of Tivo's and digital cable enabled media center boxes (I don't think any support is there yet, but at the feasibility level it'd be dead simple.), all other cablecard devices are left in the dark.

Tru2way on the other hand is a totally different beast. With real close ties to OCAP, not only does it mandate 2-way support for tru2way certified devices at the core of the specification (hence tru2way); But all devices will have OCAP hardware to where when you pair a cablecard to any tru2way device and boot it up, the theory being these devices will pull down the same OCAP based software that the cableco boxes use (Navigator in this case). And as a result, all special, proprietary functions and applications like VOD, PPV, Caller ID on tv, bill pay in addition to the SDV standard...All of those should be available on open consumer tru2way devices. IN THEORY anyway. We wait and see though since tru2way hardware is still scarce and OCAP support is in it's infancy.

hookbill

03-17-09, 06:18 PM

I can't say I'm too upset over that!! ;) I wasn't too happy that I was being forced to fund a TARP fund for tuning adapters!! :D:D:D

I have my own name for TWC customers subsidizing tuning adapters:

Cable
Relief
Action
Plan

;)

Dude, do you really think the tuning adapter has anything to do with your cable bill? Don't you realize that they will continue to raise your rates regardless of the tuning adapters?

Give me a break. All cable companies are evil when it comes to billing. Look how they screw you by making you pay for UHD but I don't. And don't forget all the money they are putting into SDV, that's the excuse for rising cost not a few lousy damn tuning adapters.

nickdawg

03-17-09, 06:23 PM

Dude, do you really think the tuning adapter has anything to do with your cable bill? Don't you realize that they will continue to raise your rates regardless of the tuning adapters?

Give me a break. All cable companies are evil when it comes to billing. Look how they screw you by making you pay for UHD but I don't. And don't forget all the money they are putting into SDV, that's the excuse for rising cost not a few lousy damn tuning adapters.

You just hit the exact reason why I'm so angry lately. I already have SDV. I've been paying for SDV(active since February). I've been paying for TWC to DO SDV for years. Many older people in the existing TWC area have been paying TWC since the 1980s. Yet we get pissed on in an attempt to appease those who have been paying Fry and Jascoe's salary for only TWO YEARS now.

Hook, think of it this way. Imagine if your area activates SDV on April 9. And you have to wait until June or July to see new SDV HD channels. You have SDV and your tuning adapter, but they're not using it. And you paid for it!! And you keep paying for a cable service that isn't utilizing everything they have to better serve the customer.

hookbill

03-17-09, 06:28 PM

nickdawg wait until they start raising our bill because of "additional channels" like the one's they are offering at the end of April. Do you really want to pay for those? I don't but we're going to.

nickdawg

03-17-09, 06:28 PM

I'm kinda glad to read that it's not TWC's problem. Just more incompetence out of the Cleveland ABC station. And while the picture was freezing yesterday and that black line was at the bottom of the screen, do you know what channel 5 did? They added a little, transparent letter "5" that is on screen during syndicated programming, on the ANALOG FEED ONLY. I remember channle 5 used to have a little gray 5 with WEWS under it a few years back. But lately I noticed their local branding vanished, just assumed it was because their analog channel is being abandoned on February 17. Now that the date was pushed back, they made another bug!! WHY! There's only about 2 months left on the analog channel. Wouldn't it make more sense to FIX YOUR DIGITAL FEED?? FIX the black line. FIX the freezing picture. Put the damn letter 5 bug on the digital channel instead!!

nickdawg

03-17-09, 06:32 PM

nickdawg wait until they start raising our bill because of "additional channels" like the one's they are offering at the end of April. Do you really want to pay for those? I don't but we're going to.

They're already raising the bill. I talked to my mother today. Her usually under $100 bill is now $103, with no late fees, for one month. And she only has two converter boxes for her two TVs, one is a DVR, one HD. On top of that, Digital Tier, HBO, Showtime. That's it. No internets, no phone. Not even the HDTV Tier.

The INSULTING thing is we're gonna have to pay more for the ***joy and pleasure*** of having colon polyps like BRAVO, CNBC, ABC FAMILY, ANIZAL PLANET, THE (not)LEARNING CHANNEL and ESPN NEWS.

The only channel I'm excited about at the end of April is MLB. At least there is something there. Something more than at BRAVO or CNBC. Hell, I'd even rather have SPEED HD than any of those channels in the April 29 batch. :cool:

Vchat20

03-18-09, 05:26 AM

nickdawg nickdawg nickdawg....Just because there are channels you don't like doesn't mean other people don't like them as well and TWC should kill them off. There's also the fact that the parent companies for a number of these channels only offer them as a bundle package (like Disney with ESPN as a well known example).

You should also realize by now especially with the Viacom fiasco that the rate hikes are not always directly a moneygrab by TWC but also influenced by the content providers wanting massive subscriber fees just to have the 'luxury' of carrying their ad-laden channels. And it's not like they can say 'Ok people. We're cutting your salaries in half so we don't have to hike subscription rates.' to their employees that they of course have to pay just like any other company. Called 'business expenses'.

On another note: I dunno if WNEO has made some changes recently to their transmitter orientation, but I did a rescan on my set today and noticed I am now picking up 45 a little better rather than 'sometimes yes, sometimes no'. Granted, I'm only getting 11% signal (still using the old hack job of a short RG6 line with 2-3 inches stripped off the core at the end) so not even a momentary picture lock. But it's steady whereas it used to be either I'd get nothing or get a few percentage points on the strength meter.

One of these days I'm REALLY gonna have to climb the antenna mast on the side of this house and rewire it. We moved in here in 2000 and never even touched it beyond snipping off the dangling leads (bad idea) so I'm not even certain what type it is or if it still works. Just your average 80s multi-element VHF/UHF antenna.

Ken H

03-18-09, 06:10 AM

They're already raising the bill. I talked to my mother today. Her usually under $100 bill is now $103, with no late fees, for one month. And she only has two converter boxes for her two TVs, one is a DVR, one HD. On top of that, Digital Tier, HBO, Showtime. That's it. No internets, no phone. Not even the HDTV Tier.

The INSULTING thing is we're gonna have to pay more for the ***joy and pleasure*** of having colon polyps like BRAVO, CNBC, ABC FAMILY, ANIZAL PLANET, THE (not)LEARNING CHANNEL and ESPN NEWS.

The only channel I'm excited about at the end of April is MLB. At least there is something there. Something more than at BRAVO or CNBC. Hell, I'd even rather have SPEED HD than any of those channels in the April 29 batch. :cool:
Dump TWC, put up an antenna, and stop whining. None of the providers do business the way you think they should. Not DBS, not cable, not fiber, not IPTV. None of them.

toby10

03-18-09, 06:16 AM

.......... At least there is something there. Something more than at BRAVO or CNBC. Hell, I'd even rather have SPEED HD than any of those channels in the April 29 batch. :cool:

CNBC would be a total waste in HD. Bravo, otoh, has some good stuff.

BTW, have I mentioned I WANT SPEED HD.

WilliamR

03-18-09, 08:04 AM

Anyone know when the Cleveland market will get sci-fi HD? Someone mentioned in another thread it was coming to northeast ohio on march 15. Still don't have it.

hookbill

03-18-09, 08:24 AM

Anyone know when the Cleveland market will get sci-fi HD? Someone mentioned in another thread it was coming to northeast ohio on march 15. Still don't have it.

Well, I don't know what part of NEO you live in but we know for a fact that no new HD channels are arriving until 3/31, and it's already past March 15 anyway.:confused:

hookbill

03-18-09, 08:27 AM

Dump TWC, put up an antenna, and stop whining. None of the providers do business the way you think they should. Not DBS, not cable, not fiber, not IPTV. None of them.

Yeah, stop whining. And cut back on the ranting while you're at it too.;):D

Me thinks this thread is getting a reputation. I've never seen so many mods in the 6 years I've been hanging around posting on this thread.

AdamPS

03-18-09, 11:02 AM

So lemme get this straight....different people watch different channels? And TW is providing a variety of these channels so that there is something for everyone? What jerks!!

InMedina

03-18-09, 11:59 AM

I like torturing myself, so I tossed in a search on WVIZ HD's actual broadcast transmission plans. They updated their website on 9/28/06 (http://wvizpbs.com/digitaltv/index.asp).

Looks like the plans to have the thing up in the spring/summer of 2006 is now spring/summer of 2007.

I can get 25 strong, clear with no problems...analog in Medina (1/2mile east of square)
Cant even find it on the digital converter box.
Their website says this: Please note: Some viewers may still have trouble receiving WVIZ/PBS over the air during this transition leading up to June 12, 2009 – even with a strong dual antenna and a converter box. If you can not receive WVIZ/PBS, you can continue to watch the non-digital WVIZ on an analog television set or use a converter box with an analog pass-through feature until June 12, by which time WVIZ will switchover completely to our high-power DTV transmitter that will reach almost everyone in the viewing area.
So maybe, later this summer I can get it?
Otherwise, any tweaks in the mean time?
I get (digital) 3's,5,8,17's,19's,43,49's,55, and of course...el 61.
Any hope for the 23's, 25's?
thanks and whats this??? a sci-fi OTA channel??? boo-rah! and its past march 15th, lol

ed1202

03-18-09, 12:00 PM

nickdawg wait until they start raising our bill because of "additional channels" like the one's they are offering at the end of April. Do you really want to pay for those? I don't but we're going to.

I thought Time Warner was "The Home of Free HD"...;)

Look how they screw you by making you pay for UHD but I don't.

Um, I get that channel now too, Hook. Are we supposed to be getting that? :confused:

ed1202

03-18-09, 12:08 PM

Anyone know when the Cleveland market will get sci-fi HD? Someone mentioned in another thread it was coming to northeast ohio on march 15. Still don't have it.

BTW Sci-Fi Channel will now be re-named SyFy. Huh?:confused:

www.tvweek.com/news/2009/03/sci_fi_channel_aims_to_shed_ge.php

Trip in VA

03-18-09, 12:13 PM

BTW Sci-Fi Channel will now be re-named SyFy. Huh?:confused:

www.tvweek.com/news/2009/03/sci_fi_channel_aims_to_shed_ge.php

I think they should just skip the games and call it "VDTV."

(Let's see who gets it. :D)

- Trip

Vchat20

03-18-09, 12:20 PM

So this is quite a ponderance going on here. Just on a whim I decided to try the firewire port on my 8300HDC again. But this time around my only machine with a firewire card is this laptop which I took from XP to Windows 7 (7057, latest leaked build) and is using a VIA PCMCIA firewire card.

Plugged it in without downloading the 'correct' drivers and I am now getting the prerequisite AV/C Panel and AV/C Tuner devices whereas before I was only getting 2 unknown devices.
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/934/devmgmt.th.png (http://img214.imageshack.us/my.php?image=devmgmt.png)

Now I just need to figure out what channels TWC has conveniently plopped the 5C flag on and figure out what programs will actually record anything. Tried CapDVHS on WKYCHD, WFMJHD, WFMJ(SD), and WKYC(SD). (Mind you, The latter two are digital in legacy territory here.)

nickdawg

03-18-09, 01:33 PM

Anyone know when the Cleveland market will get sci-fi HD? Someone mentioned in another thread it was coming to northeast ohio on march 15. Still don't have it.

***On, or after, March 31, 2009, the following services will be added to Standard HD: Palladia HD, Discovery HD, USA HD, Sci-Fi HD, and Disney HD.

***On or after April 29, 2009, the following services will be added to Standard HD: Bravo, CNBC, The Learning Channel, Animal Planet, ABC Family,

***On or after April 29, 2009 the following services will be added to HD for customers with the digital basic tier: ESPN News and MLB

nickdawg

03-18-09, 01:42 PM

So lemme get this straight....different people watch different channels? And TW is providing a variety of these channels so that there is something for everyone? What jerks!!

That's not the problem. The problem is we have limited space, and they're wasting it with garbage. In that interview with OMW, Mr. Jascoe said "he cares about real HD content". If Mr. Jascoe had bothered to read the main HDTV page at AVS, he'd find a thread called "ABC Family HD, what a joke, very little HD " (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1046212&highlight=abc+family). Yippee, another channel like the ones we currently have(TBS, HGTV). And Bravo, what do they have in HD other than reruns of Law & Order: CI and The West Wing? Top Chef, Top Model, yippee!!

ESPN News is the most pathetic addition of all. They pass over ESPNU HD in favor of ESPN News? ESPN News and CNBC are cop out channels because they are HD only because of their graphics.

hookbill

03-18-09, 01:52 PM

I thought Time Warner was "The Home of Free HD"...;)

Um, I get that channel now too, Hook. Are we supposed to be getting that? :confused:

Not according to the charts. It's suppose to be free in a couple of weeks. But I've always got it free.

hookbill

03-18-09, 01:55 PM

And Bravo, what do they have in HD other than reruns of Law & Order: CI and The West Wing? Top Chef, Top Model, yippee!!

ESPN News is the most pathetic addition of all. They pass over ESPNU HD in favor of ESPN News? ESPN News and CNBC are cop out channels because they are HD only because of their graphics.

Bravo offers original programming, probably some people do watch I don't. Just like TNT I like in HD for their original programming in HD.

As far as ESPN News, you gotta kind of expect that I mean some people watch nothing but sports.

WilliamR

03-18-09, 02:27 PM

***On, or after, March 31, 2009, the following services will be added to Standard HD: Palladia HD, Discovery HD, USA HD, Sci-Fi HD, and Disney HD.

***On or after April 29, 2009, the following services will be added to Standard HD: Bravo, CNBC, The Learning Channel, Animal Planet, ABC Family,

***On or after April 29, 2009 the following services will be added to HD for customers with the digital basic tier: ESPN News and MLB

Anxiously awaiting Sci-fi and USA HD. Those are the two big ones for me. I also will like to see animal planet in HD, we have watched some stuff on there before. Cool deal, thanks.

Michael P 2341

03-18-09, 06:12 PM

I can get 25 strong, clear with no problems...analog in Medina (1/2mile east of square)
Cant even find it on the digital converter box.
Their website says this:
So maybe, later this summer I can get it?
Otherwise, any tweaks in the mean time?
I get (digital) 3's,5,8,17's,19's,43,49's,55, and of course...el 61.
Any hope for the 23's, 25's?
thanks and whats this??? a sci-fi OTA channel??? boo-rah! and its past march 15th, lol
Welcome to the forum InMedina!
To get you up to speed about WVIZ-DT you need to know the following:
1. WVIZ-TV's analog transmitter site is no longer being considered for their digital transmitter. the owner of the tower, CBS, Inc. (owners of WNCX-FM the primary service on that tower) was in a dispute with Ideastream (the parent company of WVIZ) over the placement of the antenna for the digital signal. Bottom line, that analog signal is coming from a different location that where the digital signal comes from, therefore it's not a good indicator of the digital signal. In fact you might have to re aim your antenna.

2. For years WVIZ-DT was transmitted on a short tower at their old studio building on Brookpark Rd. This low power/short tower (99' / 1 kw) signal barely made it half-way through Parma. They have since moved and when the building sold they had to take down that short tower.

3. WKYC to the rescue! Ch 3 let WVIZ put their digital antenna on their backup tower (erroneously called the "radar tower" in FCC documentation). This is still just a temporary fix, although it did give the WVIZ-DT signal a somewhat higher antenna and an increase in power.

4. We're still waiting for the new WKYC tower to be erected. Once that is done both WKYC and WVIZ will share space on the new tower and finally provide a (hopefully) decent signal to the entire Cleveland market area.

Vchat20

03-18-09, 06:18 PM

hookbill

03-18-09, 06:35 PM

So haha. I guess this 8300HDC isn't so bad. I got the firewire connection working finally! Praise also goes out to Windows 7. The inbox drivers for my firewire card seem to play better with the 8300HDC compared to the stock drivers in XP. If I rolled the drivers in Win7 back to the 'legacy' 1394 OHCI drivers, I got the same symptoms as I did in XP which was I only got two unknown unusable devices when hooking up the DVR. With the new drivers in Win7, I get the expected tuner and panel devices required to capture anything.

Furthermore: Contrary to the known knowledge of this hack, seems in my case that I can only record dvr'd shows during playback and live programming just refuses to record. I just now grabbed a small 15 minute clip of last night's L&O:SVU off WKYC-HD in full frame 1920x1080i.

As stated in the related thread, I'm gonna play with this a little bit more and see what I get out of it. I'm just absolutely psyched that this actually works now and without having to fight with the mess at TWC to get an older box. ><

Holy smoke! Windows 7 actually fixed something?;)

It's like anything else on the web, all you ever hear is bad. You're not the first person I've heard that got the firewire to connect to the SA 8300, in your case SA 8300HDC.

Just out of curiosity can you try and copy anything off of any non local HD channel? Reason I ask is these channels are copy protected and I'm curious if you can bypass that via firewire on your unit.

Edit: I thought about it and copy protect is on all digital stations (in my area). So if you prefer any digital channel, just so long as it's over 100 and not a mirror channel would work too.

Vchat20

03-18-09, 07:21 PM

Unfortunately so far I can only get DVR'd shows from the locals going. Got L&O:SVU off WKYC-HD and Life from WFMJ-HD. Tried short bits from STO-HD and TNT-HD. Neither took. But then again, since Navigator it's a major PITA to tell what has the 5C flag or not.

Tried a music choice channel. Got data, but not viewable. TSreader gets extremely confused on it (a metric ton of random PIDs read off). IPPV previews channel semi-works. Corruption all over. Videoredo opens it with no audio channel and lots of green macro-blocking. Tried cartoon network and of course nothing.

Right now letting the laptop battery recoup and I'll probably investigate more thoroughly tomorrow.

nickdawg

03-18-09, 09:25 PM

Bravo offers original programming, probably some people do watch I don't. Just like TNT I like in HD for their original programming in HD.

As far as ESPN News, you gotta kind of expect that I mean some people watch nothing but sports.

But why does it have to be ESPN News? Why can't it be a channel that shows sports? Like ESPN U? Who wants glorified barker channels in HD(CNBC and ESPN News)?

And Bravo, they don't have more original programming than F/X. F/X has the best original programming on cable, along with USA. Plus F/X shows movies that are HD too. Still more than Bravo.

I'll bet TWC was FORCED into carrying these channels as a package. USA, CNBC, Bravo, SCIFI are all part of NBC Universal, who TWC recently started carrying. And Discovery, Anizal Planet and TLC are the same as well. Disney, ABC Family and ESPN are all Disney.

Cathode Kid

03-18-09, 09:34 PM

I don't think he's ever confirmed it but I think Cathode Kid also has a contact at TW which is why he's confirming what I said.;)

My lips are sealed. ;)

mnowlin

03-19-09, 12:35 AM

hookbill

03-19-09, 08:23 AM

Well, I'm on the list to beta-test the TiVo tuning adapter - should arrive early next week. Think I'll have my wife do the installation to truly test their instructions... I'll sit at the other side of the room while she figures out the mess of cables and shoots me really ugly looks. :)

I don't really consider this as a "beta" test as the tuner adapters have already been "beta" tested, I think this is just a way TW is making sure they work properly before they are sent out.

But on the other hand I have a little difficulty trying to understand the point of "testing." Since in our area (mnowlin and I don't live far away from each other) we do not have SDV how can we possibly "test" these adapters? You would think they would be doing this in Legacy Land where SDV is already in use.

Also I have to wonder if there is any "failure" in these test if it will further delay the deployment of SDV in ex Adelphia Land?

It is a very exciting time right now. And the days seem to be going by slowly as we approach April. I'll have to take a my weekly look at my 4250 to see if there are any changes in diagnostics.

hookbill

03-19-09, 09:33 AM

Apparently Time Warner has some plans to help people with cable cards in set from what I read here:

Time Warner Northeast Ohio HDTV Plans
It's consistently one of our "most asked" questions here at the Mighty Blog of Fun(tm): When will Time Warner Cable upgrade its HDTV lineup in Northeast Ohio?

The answer appears to be "starting soon, over the next few months".

Local TWC executive Bill Jasso has been kind enough to put a lot of the information that's already out there together, along with some new information, about channels coming to the TWC Northeast Ohio lineup.

Without further ado, here's the list we have from Mr. Jasso, quoting him directly...with specifics about channels already slotted to be added to the TWC NEO lineup between now and the end of April:

On March 31 we will be adding the following new HD channels to our entire footprint:
Palladia (MTV's music channel) Channel 470
Discovery Channel 449
USA Channel 443
Sci Fi Channel 476
Disney Channel 456

On April 29, we will add the following new HD channels:
Bravo Channel 466
CNBC Channel 486
TLC Channel 450
Animal Planet Channel 452
ABC Family Channel 460
ESPN News (customer must have Digital Basic Tier) Channel 432
MLB (customer must have Digital Basic Tier) Channel 438

We then plan to add at least five additional HD channels each month in 2009. We should end the year with about 100 HD channels.

Two notes: Some of these channels are already listed in TWC NEO's legal programming notices. And as per usual, they are listed to start "on or after" the dates in question...though it sounds like the local arm of the cable giant is planning for those dates, judging from the list above.

One reason that these additions will be possible is "Switched Digital Video" (SDV). Jasso confirms to OMW that the technology - which allows the company to shuffle channels off the main bandwidth unless requested by the user - is already in place:

Right now we have over 60 channels in the platform and it is totally un-noticeable to the customer, unless you are one of the 50-60 customers in Northeast Ohio with a Cablecard TV. We're working on a solution for those folks, and will announce it soon.

Oh, and yes, the HD TiVo boxes (HD/Series 3) also use cable cards, but TiVo customers tell us that the company is ready to send out those tuning adapters which allow the HD TiVos to use cable SDV. TiVo uses cable cards internally for its HD units.

We hear from customers who have cable cards in one form or another that they are getting letters explaining the channels affected, and TWC is communicating with TiVo HD/S3 users about the tuning adapters.

But hold on, says TWC's Bill Jasso...it appears there's some customer confusion on the TiVo/tuning adapter front:

We have over 100 people on the waiting list. But as we start calling these folks, we find that don't have the specific TiVo device that requires the adapter. Oh well, they call us anyway.

We're assuming that those mistaken calls are coming from folks with non-HD TiVos, such as the Series 2 sitting a few feet away from us right here in the OMW World Headquarters.

The tuning adapters aren't needed for the older TiVos, which don't record in HD. Those (Series 1, Series 2, DVD recorders) do not use cable cards, and the SDV tuning will be handled directly by the digital cable box that feeds the TiVo. (If we've saved your CSRs some calls, Bill...you're welcome. Heh.)

In an unrelated note, Jasso also tells us about changes for the "On Demand" service in the territories formerly owned by Adelphia:

We will be moving all of our VOD content channels in the Greater Cleveland (read: former Adelphia) area (systems) from the current Channel 1 portal, to their own separate channels. This is planned for the first week of May. This should make all VOD easier to navigate and reach.

Again, much of this information is "already out there", from the letters being sent to customers, to the legal "Programming Notices" page on Time Warner Northeast Ohio's website. We hope we were able to tie it all together for you, with official confirmation.

The aforementioned legal notices page also notes some other changes, like the exit of West Virginia Media CBS affiliate WTRF/7 Wheeling from the TWC systems in the Dover/New Philadelphia/Newcomerstown region on April 1...as TWC continues to pare duplicate network affiliates from their local lineups...

Please notice people with non HD TiVo units YOU DO NOT NEED A TUNER ADAPTER so quit bugging them.:)

Rbuchina

03-19-09, 10:03 AM

I'm in old Comcast land (Mentor) and I was just wondering if all this SDV BS and new channels are going to work with my old Motorola HDTV DVR. I believe its a DCT 6400 type box. I feel like a minority here since all I read about is TWC legacy and ex-Adelphia area and nothing about ex-Comcast.

While off from work last Friday I took my bedroom Mot. digital box back to my Mentor office and swapped it with a new SA-4250 HDC so I could view the HD chhannels on my old bedroom TV. It works fine but I am beginning to wonder if any of this SDV stuff will work on Motorola box technology. The CSR at the counter claimed that all this new HD programmang was coming down shortly and did not mention anything about my main Motorola box in my family room so I susspect this should work. If not, I have the new SA 4250 I can bring down and use in the family room until I can swap out the Motorola DCT 6400.

I quess I just wait and see,

Ray

hookbill

03-19-09, 10:07 AM

Rbuchina

03-19-09, 10:38 AM

Very good question. If I were you I'd be proactive and exchange that moto box.

I probably will need to replace it but I have several concert videos that I like to view from the DVR and they will be lost. Oh well, we shall see.

Ray

hookbill

03-19-09, 10:52 AM

I probably will need to replace it but I have several concert videos that I like to view from the DVR and they will be lost. Oh well, we shall see.

Ray

Well, I can't pretend to know if it will or will not work with the motobox so waiting is probably your best avenue. This is one of the reasons why I never record anything permanently. I don't know anything about moto's so I can't say as to the quality of the hard drive but if that ever goes you would lose it anyway.

If only WVIZ would use Dolby 5.1 I would also record concerts off of there and store them on my computer but that's not happening. Solution: Purchase the DVD.:)

ed1202

03-19-09, 01:07 PM

AdamPS

03-19-09, 01:17 PM

That's not the problem. The problem is we have limited space, and they're wasting it with garbage. In that interview with OMW, Mr. Jascoe said "he cares about real HD content". If Mr. Jascoe had bothered to read the main HDTV page at AVS, he'd find a thread called "ABC Family HD, what a joke, very little HD " (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1046212&highlight=abc+family). Yippee, another channel like the ones we currently have(TBS, HGTV). And Bravo, what do they have in HD other than reruns of Law & Order: CI and The West Wing? Top Chef, Top Model, yippee!!

ESPN News is the most pathetic addition of all. They pass over ESPNU HD in favor of ESPN News? ESPN News and CNBC are cop out channels because they are HD only because of their graphics.

ESPN NEWS-HD is actually a HUGE improvement over the SD version. The entire layout is different and there are scores/stats running around the left and bottom that do not come through on the regular version. I find these things annoying on most channels but it is perfect on something like ESPN NEWS.

ed1202

03-19-09, 01:20 PM

I don't really consider this as a "beta" test as the tuner adapters have already been "beta" tested, I think this is just a way TW is making sure they work properly before they are sent out.

But on the other hand I have a little difficulty trying to understand the point of "testing." Since in our area (mnowlin and I don't live far away from each other) we do not have SDV how can we possibly "test" these adapters? You would think they would be doing this in Legacy Land where SDV is already in use.

I agree with you. I'm sure the equipment has been field "tested" internally (by staffers). The gist I got when talking to my contact at TW was that they just wanted to know about the peticulars of the average customer being able (from the supplied written instructions) to correctly hook up the device. I was told to be expecting calls from CSR's shortly thereafter to pick my brain as to the correctness of said instructions to see if anything needed to be re-worded or changed.

hookbill

03-19-09, 01:22 PM

smoti17

03-19-09, 02:33 PM

Wow ! I've now had *3* letters in the post and one e-mail saying my tuning adapter will be available after 1st April....

And Yay if all this means we can get SciFi and Discovery in HD :-)

hookbill

03-19-09, 02:40 PM

Wow ! I've now had *3* letters in the post and one e-mail saying my tuning adapter will be available after 1st April....

And Yay if all this means we can get SciFi and Discovery in HD :-)

Yeah, I got another letter exactly like the one I got a couple of days ago. Strange.

Vchat20

03-19-09, 03:42 PM

hookbill

03-19-09, 04:02 PM

Well hookbill: I did more testing with the firewire setup and my expected suspicions were confirmed. Pretty much anything other than the locals are impossible to record. Albeit a bit glitchy, at least the locals I can record sustained amounts of programming that's viewable.

Tried TBS, TBS HD, Disney channel, Cartoon network, Discovery, a VOD title, a music choice channel. That's about it for non-locals. I get data for everything. CapDVHS often goes without crashing and I have a number of TS files anywhere from a few MB up to as much as assumed for the particular channels (HD of course produces larger files per second/minute than SD channels. This is seen even on channels that are locked). Discovery reads back in TSreader though whereas other channels state it's not a recognizable mpeg2 file. (2 PIDs shown. Assume one video and one audio. Former is 2mbit, latter is around 85kbps. Past that, no other info given or discernable).

But locals work. Even tried WYTV-HD on an existing DVR'd copy of Scrubs and House on WJW-HD. These record flawlessly (though sometimes CapDVHS crashes mid-stream. Nature of the beast unfortunately on Windows being a hack and all. Mac's have it good though with native firewire support and AV/C support).

Curious though. Does the Tivo in any way give you the ability to check the 5C status of various channels? If I could figure out what channels have what 5C flag, could probably narrow this down a bit better. Anyone in the legacy areas still hanging onto Passport maybe?

I thinking you're talking a bit too high tech for me, but I gather what you are asking me is "Can TiVo show what channels are copy protected?" If that's what you're asking, I can see in the diagnostics screen what channels have what type of protection.

In TiVo language it sums up like this: 0X01= Copy freely, 0x02= Copy once, and 0x03= Copy never. So if you have copy once, you copy only to your DVR but you are blocked from copying anywhere else (like your PC, Mac, or even another TiVo). Copy never will allow a copy, but it will disappear within one hour after the copy happens. I've only seen this once and this was on the old Mojo or whatever it was called before that, and that was a TW error.

As far as a 5C flag, don't have a clue at what you're talking about unless my guess was right above.

It seems to me that you are limited even more then I am however in your ability to copy and that may just have to do with the area you live in. Since you have all digital and no analog they may have the copy never flag on channels that I can copy, like SciFi or USA etc. That kinda sucks. I don't understand TW's thinking on this, available for copy freely analog but not digital. It seems like they are simply limiting us from using our own equipment to full capacity. I can understand Pay Per Views and premium channels, but the rest doesn't make sense. At least not to me.

Vchat20

03-19-09, 04:17 PM

Yeah. 5C is basically that copy protection you are talking about. Just the technical term for it. Back on Passport the diag showed it as just that: Copy once, Copy Freely, Copy Never. Unfortunately Navigator ODN doesn't display that info anywhere. Checked both the Hardware and Software diag's.

Yeah, it is a bit depressing. No clue why TWC does this. I am in agreement that it's pretty stupid from a fair use standpoint. Not only that, but at least in my case it comes down to the fact that using a traditional capture card is overhwelming resource-wise and unusable unless I like to babysit it for dropped frames and such. At least with the firewire option, it's just the same as if I was transferring a file over the network at the given rate of the video (~4-6mbps for SD, anywhere from 12-20mbps for HD give or take.). Not even tasking for the most ancient hardware.

nickdawg

03-19-09, 04:55 PM

i've tried to "volunteer" for the beta testing. Got a form email back but the guy took the time on the top to say, "I got it, you want to volunteer to test."

Apparently regular TiVo owners are getting confused as to whether or not they need an adapter. It list the 3 models to qualify for the adapter.

Tivo S2 needing a tuning adapter? I lol'ed at that. That thing doesn't even use cable cards.

I have a friend who has a Tivo S2. My 8300HD kicks its ass. :D:D:D

hookbill

03-19-09, 05:10 PM

Tivo S2 needing a tuning adapter? I lol'ed at that. That thing doesn't even use cable cards.

The majority of TiVo owners don't even know what they have.

I have a friend who has a Tivo S2. My 8300HD kicks its ass. :D:D:D

Other then the fact that it doesn't copy in HD, you're completely wrong.

You do not have home media. You can't transfer from one device to another. You can't show your digital pictures on your television, TiVo S2 owners can albeit they are not in HD. TiVo S2 owners can play mp3 files (actually smart S2 owners know how to play any file) from their PC or Mac. Since I have never actually seen Navigator I can't speak to your search functions but are you capable of simply looking up a show by typing in the name only? Do you have a wishlist? I know you don't have wishlist.

It's the same old arguments.

You can of course access On Demand and from that stand point you can beat the S2 but that's about it. And then again there is the distinct possibility that in attempting to record in HD it may not actually happen with the SA 8300. At least that's my experience and don't forget I record everything.

I would say your friend either didn't know or didn't show you everything the S2 can do.

nickdawg

03-19-09, 05:37 PM

The majority of TiVo owners don't even know what they have.

Other then the fact that it doesn't copy in HD, you're completely wrong.

You do not have home media. You can't transfer from one device to another. You can't show your digital pictures on your television, TiVo S2 owners can albeit they are not in HD. TiVo S2 owners can play mp3 files (actually smart S2 owners know how to play any file) from their PC or Mac. Since I have never actually seen Navigator I can't speak to your search functions but are you capable of simply looking up a show by typing in the name only? Do you have a wishlist? I know you don't have wishlist.

It's the same old arguments.

You can of course access On Demand and from that stand point you can beat the S2 but that's about it. And then again there is the distinct possibility that in attempting to record in HD it may not actually happen with the SA 8300. At least that's my experience and don't forget I record everything.

I would say your friend either didn't know or didn't show you everything the S2 can do.

I know, the same argument. But one thing I do know about the Tivo S2 is that it cannot tune digital channels. Unless you use one of those IR sensors. That makes channel up/down browsing impossible, since there's a delay in changing the channel on the cable box. And if something is recording on a channel on the attached cable box, you can't watch any cable box channels.

And my search feature is better. I don't know how the HD versions work, but on S2 whenever he pushes the (tivo) button, the picture and sound go away. On all my menus I get a quarter screen picture and sound. Which is a must as I'm obsessed with the guide. Always looking for what else is on or using the search. To not have at least the sound of the show I'm watching is torture.

But hey, at least you can play music and pictures on it. Wait, I can do that with just my iPod and surround sound system. Or my camera's USB cable and the USB port on the side of my TV. ;);)

nickdawg

03-19-09, 05:43 PM

On March 31 we will be adding the following new HD channels to our entire footprint:
Palladia (MTV's music channel) Channel 470
Discovery Channel 449
USA Channel 443
Sci Fi Channel 476
Disney Channel 456

On April 29, we will add the following new HD channels:
Bravo Channel 466
CNBC Channel 486
TLC Channel 450
Animal Planet Channel 452
ABC Family Channel 460
ESPN News (customer must have Digital Basic Tier) Channel 432
MLB (customer must have Digital Basic Tier) Channel 438

We then plan to add at least five additional HD channels each month in 2009. We should end the year with about 100 HD channels.

I'm a little worried about something, why is Palladia listed as channel 470? It's not something you did hookbill, I see it is that way at OMW too. Channel 470 is Universal HD. Is TWC going to stop carrying UHD? They better not, it's the only HD channel that I watch on a regular basis.

Also, why do they have to scatter the channels out like that? Why are they putting stuff up on 476 and 486? The 470s are the HDTV tier channels. The 480s have HD PPV and VOD channels. Why mix regualr watchable channels in with that crap? The 450s are almost totally empty, yet Scifi and CNBC are being dumped in the 470s and 480s.

But I guess TWC thinks like I think!!! After too much green beer!! ;) :D:D:D

hookbill

03-19-09, 05:47 PM

I know, the same argument. But one thing I do know about the Tivo S2 is that it cannot tune digital channels. Unless you use one of those IR sensors. That makes channel up/down browsing impossible, since there's a delay in changing the channel on the cable box. And if something is recording on a channel on the attached cable box, you can't watch any cable box channels.

And my search feature is better. I don't know how the HD versions work, but on S2 whenever he pushes the (tivo) button, the picture and sound go away. On all my menus I get a quarter screen picture and sound. Which is a must as I'm obsessed with the guide. Always looking for what else is on or using the search. To not have at least the sound of the show I'm watching is torture.

But hey, at least you can play music and pictures on it. Wait, I can do that with just my iPod and surround sound system. Or my camera's USB cable and the USB port on the side of my TV. ;);)

The TiVo button is really used as an "all access" type thing. And they actually have two type of guides you can use.

It's the concept that's different and unless you actually worked it it's kind of hard to describe but you can use the transparent guide to search and find programming by time and channel. That doesn't make your programming go away. And with the latest updates, which the S2 has you can now easily jump from day to day by pushing one button.

I've worked with the SA 8300 and I will flat on out tell you that their guide is pretty cool. It's great for surfing, and the reason it works the way it does is because SA 8300 provides PIP, something no TiVo does so from that aspect, I see where you're coming from. But if you want to search for something and have no idea when it comes on, then that's where it falls short.

hookbill

03-19-09, 05:50 PM

I'm a little worried about something, why is Palladia listed as channel 470? It's not something you did hookbill, I see it is that way at OMW too. Channel 470 is Universal HD. Is TWC going to stop carrying UHD? They better not, it's the only HD channel that I watch on a regular basis.

Also, why do they have to scatter the channels out like that? Why are they putting stuff up on 476 and 486? The 470s are the HDTV tier channels. The 480s have HD PPV and VOD channels. Why mix regualr watchable channels in with that crap? The 450s are almost totally empty, yet Scifi and CNBC are being dumped in the 470s and 480s.

But I guess TWC thinks like I think!!! After too much green beer!! ;) :D:D:D

Either it's a typo or they are moving it to another channel. I'd bet typo, hey, that letter still said Mojo remember?:)

nickdawg

03-19-09, 06:17 PM

Either it's a typo or they are moving it to another channel. I'd bet typo, hey, that letter still said Mojo remember?:)

It better be a typo, or they can have their HDTV Tier back! :p

But I'm still put off by the channel line up. I don't understand why they're putting channels on positions above the HDTV Tier? Wouldn't they want to keep all the "real, watchable" HD channels that are 'free HD' under the HDTV Tier? It doesn't make sense to have so much empty space in the 450s, 460s and have channels in the 480s. I have seen the lineups of other areas with more HD channels, and they have the same confusing lineup. But at least they are putting ESPN and MLB in the 430s. I actually predicted that ESPN News would be 432. :D:D:D

hookbill

03-19-09, 06:19 PM

It better be a typo, or they can have their HDTV Tier back! :p

But I'm still put off by the channel line up. I don't understand why they're putting channels on positions above the HDTV Tier? Wouldn't they want to keep all the "real, watchable" HD channels that are 'free HD' under the HDTV Tier? It doesn't make sense to have so much empty space in the 450s, 460s and have channels in the 480s. I have seen the lineups of other areas with more HD channels, and they have the same confusing lineup. But at least they are putting ESPN and MLB in the 430s. I actually predicted that ESPN News would be 432. :D:D:D

Well, you notice they don't say anymore "Time Warner. We think like you do.":D

Because they don't.;):D

Shark73

03-19-09, 11:10 PM

nickdawg

03-19-09, 11:22 PM

If you have an 8300HD, keep it. The newer version is the 8300HDC, which is exactly the same as the 8300HD, except the HDC box uses multi-stream cable cards and a different program for the guide, DVR, menus. The different program for the HDC boxes is much worse than the program used on the HD boxes.

Also, there are rumblings that Samsung is supposed to be developing a new DVR for cable companies. So far, they haven't been released yet and if/when they are, I doubt TWC NE Ohio is anywhere near the head of the list. Just look how long it took them to get SDV! :rolleyes:

hookbill

03-19-09, 11:25 PM

If someone doesn't mind answering a question that I'm sure has been talked about here before, I would appreciate the input: Is TWC in Strongsville (ex-Adelphia area) offering a newer HD DVR than the SA 8300? I've had this box for a few years and would like to see something new being offered soon. And no, I have no interest in paying for the HD Tivo. I know Tivo is better but its not worth it for the little amount of shows we record.

Thanks,
Jim
Jim, the latest from SA is the 8300HDC however I have heard negative comments and nicdawg exchanged his for th SA8300. Question I have for you is if you don't record such why do you want a different DVR?

Shark73

03-19-09, 11:36 PM

Jim, the latest from SA is the 8300HDC however I have heard negative comments and nicdawg exchanged his for th SA8300. Question I have for you is if you don't record such why do you want a different DVR?

Thanks to both of you for the response. It's not that I want a different box...I'm happy enough with the 8300. I had a Tivo when I had D* and I do agree that Tivo is so much better.

My question about a new DVR was more interest if there is anything new since I've not read the forum in months and I read on the last two pages of posts that we are getting new HD channels the next few months. If you guys think the 8300 is the "best" (:rolleyes:) DVR offered at this time then I will stick with it.

I was being lazy and didn't want to read through a ton of post to find the answer....so I thank you again for the quick reply. :D

hookbill

03-19-09, 11:51 PM

Thanks to both of you for the response. It's not that I want a different box...I'm happy enough with the 8300. I had a Tivo when I had D* and I do agree that Tivo is so much better.

My question about a new DVR was more interest if there is anything new since I've not read the forum in months and I read on the last two pages of posts that we are getting new HD channels the next few months. If you guys think the 8300 is the "best" (:rolleyes:) DVR offered at this time then I will stick with it.

I was being lazy and didn't want to read through a ton of post to find the answer....so I thank you again for the quick reply. :D
Just an FYI Sony has something either out there now or will have. Its a HD DVR that has no service charge. Try google for more info.

Vchat20

03-20-09, 02:18 AM

Also, there are rumblings that Samsung is supposed to be developing a new DVR for cable companies. So far, they haven't been released yet and if/when they are, I doubt TWC NE Ohio is anywhere near the head of the list. Just look how long it took them to get SDV! :rolleyes:

Actually, they are already available and have been in 'employee testing' in a number of regions. It'll eventually come around, just a case of when.

hookbill

03-20-09, 07:03 AM

Actually, they are already available and have been in 'employee testing' in a number of regions. It'll eventually come around, just a case of when.
Let me correct myself it was indeed Samsung not Sony.

Vchat20

03-20-09, 07:41 AM

toby10

03-20-09, 07:50 AM

More evidence of the silliness of EAS "dire warnings" interrupting my TV viewing.
Even those most at risk (mobile homes in tornado alley) shrug off even the simplest, most effective, and FREE form of warning system:
http://www.weathernet5.com/weather/18965460/detail.html

If those most at risk don't care, why the friggin hell should I care??? :eek::p:confused:

hookbill

03-20-09, 07:52 AM

Yeah. The actual model number is the SMT-H3090 and is one of the first specifically tru2way certified devices to hit the market. Docsis 2.0, MPEG4 decoding, 864Mhz tuner, 400mhz RISC processor, 384MB ram (compared to the 8300HDC's paltry 128MB when taking the java based software into account).

Last I heard that the NYC regions had it and as I stated up above, is in employee testing. Being tru2way/OCAP based, it is of course going to be running the ODN version of Navigator. Though compared to the current SA*HDC boxes, it'll have better specs to run it and at least won't be as sluggish.

Once again though, it's a wait and see thing as to how soon they'll be coming around.

Current spec sheet PDF: http://www.samsung.com/us/system/consumer/product/2008/05/09/smt_h3090twc/SMT-H3090_080205.pdf
It never occurred to me that the software running on these new DVR'S would be running the same software offered by the cable companies. But now it makes sense, how else could they do it and not provide a service charge.

I don't know what TiVo plans to do about it but I'm certain they will not step down to Navigators level. Hopefully they will provide a machine that has a new interface (TiVo really needs a new one) at a decent price.

Over the last couple of weeks I'm getting a better understanding of what Tru2Way is going to be, thanks.

hookbill

03-20-09, 08:06 AM

toby10

03-20-09, 08:42 AM

What cable system does this? I never see anything on TW like this. The only warnings I see are the ones the stations broadcast. They are annoying enough.

WOW Cable, big RED bar across the top of the screen for any weather or Amber alert referring viewers to Ch 15 for more info.

I suppose there are some advantages to having a cable system that isn't as technologically advanced as others, as (apparently) your TWC system won't bother you to this level. Or, TWC has wisely chosen NOT to bother it's viewers with such nonsense. :rolleyes:

Vchat20

03-20-09, 11:26 AM

You have to forgive us. Unfortunately most of us posting here are TWC customers for the most part. You are the only one I have seen post from what little WOW territory there is up in this part of the state.

Though I have seen mentionings before of some 'proactive' in-your-face alerts from them. Particularly with their HSI service they'll insert various alerts as they deem necessary into the top of every page you visit akin to the TV version. Shockingly at my brother's place down in the Columbus WOW territory I haven't seen evidence of either the TV or HSI alerts.

Like has been stated before, TWC seems to be pretty good about keeping it's use of their on-TV notice system to a minimum that I, personally, have noticed. nickdawg may argue that, but we know he's glued to the boo tube the way he rants and raves here and doesn't believe in using a DVR. :p

black88mx6

03-20-09, 11:32 AM

Right now we have over 60 channels in the platform and it is totally un-noticeable to the customer, unless you are one of the 50-60 customers in Northeast Ohio with a Cablecard TV. We're working on a solution for those folks, and will announce it soon.

Wow, 50-60; that really is a low number. From the letter the plan is to give us HD/SDV boxes that can-not to PPV or VOD, for one year at the same price as our cable cards. After the first year prices are subject to change. As it is, I am not planning on taking this new box, as I have to turn in my cable card to get it. I might try and pick one up to "test" it though.

ed1202

03-20-09, 01:36 PM

After asking my contact at TW if there would be any functionality problems with the tuning adapters in the ex-Adelphia areas she responded this morning with...

Good Morning,

Since your channels have not started switching yet, the Tuning Adapter won't be necessary until April 9.

Just for the sake of testing, I would like to see what happens when it goes on a TiVo prior to SDV starting.

Thank you!
Jeanie

...if anyone's curious. :)

hookbill

03-20-09, 01:49 PM

Dweezilz

03-20-09, 04:12 PM

nickdawg

03-20-09, 04:29 PM

Yeah. The actual model number is the SMT-H3090 and is one of the first specifically tru2way certified devices to hit the market. Docsis 2.0, MPEG4 decoding, 864Mhz tuner, 400mhz RISC processor, 384MB ram (compared to the 8300HDC's paltry 128MB when taking the java based software into account).

Last I heard that the NYC regions had it and as I stated up above, is in employee testing. Being tru2way/OCAP based, it is of course going to be running the ODN version of Navigator. Though compared to the current SA*HDC boxes, it'll have better specs to run it and at least won't be as sluggish.

Once again though, it's a wait and see thing as to how soon they'll be coming around.

Current spec sheet PDF: http://www.samsung.com/us/system/consumer/product/2008/05/09/smt_h3090twc/SMT-H3090_080205.pdf

Also, the new version of Navigator, ODN 3.xx, which is listed in my signature as ODN3, is supposed to more more stable and reliable than the current ODN 2 (electric blue menus) we have now. If you've seen an older 8300HD box or any TWC box running the latest version of MDN(with the new color scheme), that is exactly how the latest version of ODN 3 looks.

If the 8300HDC boxes can run this newer version of ODN with less flaws, I'm sure the Samsung boxes will run it even better.

nickdawg

03-20-09, 04:34 PM

There was mention by Nickdawg about 10 pages back that he was missing certain channels. I was looking for the Fine Living Network last night because there's speculation that Zane Lamprey's MOJO show 'Three Sheets' might be picked up by that network, but I discovered it's missing from my lineup even though we are supposed to have it on 158.

Nick what was the outcome of that issue? If that is indeed the channel Zane goes to, I need to get it!! :) I wish a channel with HD had picked his great show up instead of FLN but SD Zane is better than NO Zane. No offiical announcment as of yet so it still could be Bravo or Travel which are the other rumors.

The channels are "missing" because the *Brilliant and Wonderful People* at TWC decided to take some channels we had included with our Digital Cable service and put them in some kind of tier to squeeze an extra $5 out of us. Channels like Fine Living, DIY and a few other that used to be included with Digital Cable(channels that used to be over 100) are now in the "Choice Tier", along with most of the 'new' channels they added last year.

The Best thing that could happen to Zane's show is going to Bravo. We're getting Bravo HD on TWC at the end of April.

hookbill

03-20-09, 05:24 PM

The channels are "missing" because the *Brilliant and Wonderful People* at TWC decided to take some channels we had included with our Digital Cable service and put them in some kind of tier to squeeze an extra $5 out of us. Channels like Fine Living, DIY and a few other that used to be included with Digital Cable(channels that used to be over 100) are now in the "Choice Tier", along with most of the 'new' channels they added last year.

The Best thing that could happen to Zane's show is going to Bravo. We're getting Bravo HD on TWC at the end of April.

We (Ex-Adelphia) don't have those choice tier pricing yet. But we will.

nickdawg

03-20-09, 05:35 PM

We (Ex-Adelphia) don't have those choice tier pricing yet. But we will.

Yes you do. Take a look at the lineup. The channels in cyan are "Choice Tier".

http://www.twclineup.com/lineups0208/TWNEO5935SuburbanCleveland3MigrationLU022008.pdf

108 PBS Kids
109 Boomerang
110 Nick Two
157 DIY
158 Fine Living
210 Ovation
390 Familyland

How stupid is TWC? $5 for 7 channels. They could just give us the damn channels and raise our bills by $5!!!

toby10

03-21-09, 04:40 AM

You have to forgive us. Unfortunately most of us posting here are TWC customers for the most part. You are the only one I have seen post from what little WOW territory there is up in this part of the state..........

Hardly necessary, I know I'm in someone else's sandbox. ;)
But I cannot resist the hook & nick show. It's like a train wreck: you know you shouldn't look, but you just have too! :D

hookbill

03-21-09, 06:28 AM

Hardly necessary, I know I'm in someone else's sandbox. ;)
But I cannot resist the hook & nick show. It's like a train wreck: you know you shouldn't look, but you just have too! :D
Nickdawg & I have toned it down. We both try to stay off the DVR feud though I admit there are times when nickdawg forgets and I can't resist getting into. Another no win battle.

Its not my intention to get him going and. Think he is trying not to go ballistic as much.

This is after all the CLEVELAND local HD thread. Once we get past SDV we should quiet down even more.

That doesn't mean that nickdawg will stop his ranting. He can't help himself.

I hope him and I have a very friendly rivalry. And heaven help the occasional fool who ticks both of us off. :)

ajstan99

03-21-09, 08:52 AM

Hardly necessary, I know I'm in someone else's sandbox. ;)
But I cannot resist the hook & nick show. It's like a train wreck: you know you shouldn't look, but you just have too! :D
I know what you mean. I used to think that "Cleveland HDTV" meant we would discuss HDTV and DTV in the Cleveland, Ohio area, but now know that it's an acronym for "Contains Little Entertainment Value Except Laughing At NickDawg Having Dispropotionate Tantrums Vacuously". :D

Michael P 2341

03-21-09, 09:26 AM

Yes you do. Take a look at the lineup. The channels in cyan are "Choice Tier".

http://www.twclineup.com/lineups0208/TWNEO5935SuburbanCleveland3MigrationLU022008.pdf

108 PBS Kids
109 Boomerang
110 Nick Two
157 DIY
158 Fine Living
210 Ovation
390 Familyland

How stupid is TWC? $5 for 7 channels. They could just give us the damn channels and raise our bills by $5!!!
Familyland is in the "choice" tier? It cost TWC 0, zip, nada for this channel. It's a "PI" channel (public interest, non commercial). It should be in the lowest tier.

hookbill

03-21-09, 09:33 AM

If they put us on tiers, I haven't noticed it. I pay the same that I have paid for a year now, and that's about 10.00 lower including Showtime and HBO, because I do a lot of complaining.:D

hookbill

03-21-09, 09:35 AM

ajstan99

03-21-09, 09:53 AM

I know what you mean. I used to think that "Cleveland HDTV" meant we would discuss HDTV and DTV in the Cleveland, Ohio area, but now know that it's an acronym for "Contains Little Entertainment Value Except Laughing At NickDawg Having Dispropotionate Tantrums Vacuously". :D

Thank you. No offense meant nickdawg but I'd rather not be considered the ying to your yang.:)
You're welcome. I know the official title is "Cleveland, OH - HDTV", but the only thing I could come up for "OH" with "Or Hookbill", so I think I (wisely) left it out. ;)

nickdawg

03-21-09, 04:37 PM

Familyland is in the "choice" tier? It cost TWC 0, zip, nada for this channel. It's a "PI" channel (public interest, non commercial). It should be in the lowest tier.

I just checked 390, there's a message "To Receive this Channel, Call Customer Care".

TWC: We charge for public interest channels.
We think like you think! :D

Vchat20

03-21-09, 04:39 PM

Wow. You're kidding?! Charging for a public access/interest channel like that? Methinks TWC needs a REAL good reality check before something bad goes down like their business.

Cathode Kid

03-22-09, 01:12 PM

Anyone seen a good deal on the Terk amplified mini log-periodic antenna? I saw one in a big box store and was astonished at the price they were asking.

Vchat20

03-22-09, 04:32 PM

I'm trying to figure out if TWC of Akron (Northeast Ohio) provides the must carry OTA channels in HD. I have a tuner on my computer but it detects no channels at all and I'm trying to figure out if TWC simply doesn't provide any unencrypted ones or I have some other problem like a filter outside the house blocking them. (I have the TWC digital and HD packages).

Is anyone out there in the Akron area receiving OTA HD channels on TWC?

Also, is TWC NEO using SDV (Switched Digital Video) yet? If so, could that explain my problem?

TWC is mandated by the government last I checked to provide the locals in the clear. And last time I did a scan on my tv with the internal QAM tuner, each of the locals were picked up just fine on their OTA positions and some even (like WKYC) offered their subchannels. I know I got 3-1 and 3-2 on this end at last glance.

SDV's slowly being rolled out, but the locals are not on them and should not be.

As for the filter, it's highly doubtful. There's no easy way for them to differentiate what frequencies the digital and analog channels are run on and easily block them without interfering with other services. It would also be a huge waste of manpower to block what essentially is just the locals that you can get access to now on a Clear QAM tuner.

I would doublecheck your tuner and see if anything is amiss. Make sure it actually supports QAM tuning (ATSC/OTA Digital and QAM are two different beasts.), the cable run between the outside of the house to the tuner is in good shape and not killing the signal, stuff like that. Check the software as well to see if maybe a setting is off somewhere.

hookbill

03-22-09, 05:51 PM

I've been messing with this for two days now. There is nothing amiss on the software side. Everything works great when hooked up to an antenna. And the HDHomeRun box certainly can receive QAM256 just fine, that's not a question.

I'm going to go hook up the box directly to the incoming coax line because right now it is going through a 5-1000 MHz splitter (but that should work).

I suggest you have TW come out and do a signal check, specially if it works without the splitter.

If you're not receiving a strong enough signal that certainly will cause you problems in receiving HD channels, had that problem once myself and they put a power booster in the basement for me. End of problem.

nickdawg

03-22-09, 06:40 PM

What happened here? :confused:

hookbill

03-22-09, 06:50 PM

What happened here? :confused:

Best guess somebody got booted. Or AVS Forum had a problem. If somebody gets booted they usually remove all trace, but you can still see his copy from Vchat.

Edit he has quite a few posts, don't think he got booted. Must be AVS data base issue.

Ken H

03-22-09, 07:05 PM

Best guess somebody got booted.Nope. Or AVS Forum had a problem.Yup, some data got lost, but it does not appear it affected this topic.

Edit he has quite a few posts, don't think he got booted. Must be AVS data base issue.Actually, the OP deleted a number of his own posts.

hookbill

03-23-09, 09:01 AM

I'm getting some major sound drop offs on WKYC. It started when they went to break and now carrying on through the Today show. OTA, Satellite people?

hookbill

03-23-09, 09:07 AM

It's now just a mess of pixelation, unwatchable.

Vchat20

03-23-09, 09:28 AM

The SD analog channel on cable here looks fine. No sound or picture issues that I've seen.

hookbill

03-23-09, 09:41 AM

The SD analog channel on cable here looks fine. No sound or picture issues that I've seen.

I'm talking about their digital channel HD 403 via TW. Don't know if it's still going on.

nickdawg

03-23-09, 09:52 AM

9:51---I'm watching Paula Deen on Today, 403 is fine.

hookbill

03-23-09, 10:10 AM

9:51---I'm watching Paula Deen on Today, 403 is fine.

'They probably fixed it. All my other channels were OK.

ed1202

03-23-09, 12:24 PM

Yeah hook, I had some noticeable pixelization problems on 403 Sunday morning during the Channel 3 morning show. I thought I was having some line signal issues but it was only happening on 403. Seems to be clear today. Seems to be a channel issue.

nickdawg

03-23-09, 03:27 PM

hookbill

03-23-09, 03:40 PM

I was going to say maybe it was SDV, but WKYC wouldn't be a SDV channel. But yeah, SDV BLOWS!!! I can't even watch one of the SDV HD channels on the 4250HD box. I just get a message on screen: "HDTV Only is currently Unavailable" and "Press A to try again".

"Unavailable"? "Try Again"? That's why TWC no longer says "we think like you think". Because now they think FOR you!!! :p

:confused::confused::confused::confused:

If you got a 4250HD box you are fully capable of two way communication so there should be no problem with SDV.

Just out of curiosity nickdawg, fire up your diagnostic screen on that channel and take a look at what your cable card reading says. Also see if you can fine the pids, and see if the pcr and video pid match up. If they don't then you have a CABLE CARD issue that TW headend will have to get involved in.

Lots of luck bud.:)

nickdawg

03-23-09, 03:56 PM

:confused::confused::confused::confused:

If you got a 4250HD box you are fully capable of two way communication so there should be no problem with SDV.

Just out of curiosity nickdawg, fire up your diagnostic screen on that channel and take a look at what your cable card reading says. Also see if you can fine the pids, and see if the pcr and video pid match up. If they don't then you have a CABLE CARD issue that TW headend will have to get involved in.

Lots of luck bud.:)

It's only a problem on channel 471. 472 and 435 (both SDV) work fine. Also, the standard definition SDV channels work fine. I rebooted the box yesterday and it started working better. Before that other channels would freeze too. Also, now 471 doesn't have the unavailable message.

Strange, I checked the GOOD box (8300HD) and 471 is acting up on that one too. The picture breaks up and the sound is choppy. Must be a TWC problem. None of the other channels are like this.

hookbill

03-23-09, 04:13 PM

Then why are you ranting on SDV all of a sudden. You couldn't wait for SDV it was like the second coming. Or is this just nickdawg being nickdawg?:)

Rbuchina

03-25-09, 02:06 PM

Pretty quiet around here.

It must be the calm before the storm waiting for the new TWC HD channel additions at the end of March.

Ray

Trip in VA

03-25-09, 05:58 PM

http://www.cleveland.com/books/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/entertainment-0/123796984317990.xml&coll=2

April 1 is This TV day for WUAB 43-2.

- Trip

hookbill

03-25-09, 06:06 PM

http://www.cleveland.com/books/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/entertainment-0/123796984317990.xml&coll=2

April 1 is This TV day for WUAB 43-2.

- Trip

Oh joy, you know I can't wait for that.:rolleyes:;)

nickdawg

03-25-09, 07:44 PM

Whoopee!!! I'm so frakin happy!! :rolleyes:

On a GOOD note, channle 5 finally fixed their "problem".

Tim Lones

03-26-09, 04:50 AM

http://www.cleveland.com/books/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/entertainment-0/123796984317990.xml&coll=2

April 1 is This TV day for WUAB 43-2.

- Trip

Thanks-I get "This TV" on several Free-To-Air Satellite stations..They air Patty Duke and Mr. Ed weekdays along with mostly second tier MGM Movies..Incidentally Patty Duke, being an MGM-UA show, was one of the mainstays of then United Artists-Owned WUAB-43 when they first signed on in 1968. Now we need RTN in the Cleveland Market..(at least I want it)

ajstan99

03-26-09, 08:53 AM

FYI - just saw a crawl on The Weather Channel (that's where WOW posts their announcements) saying that USA-HD is being added on 4/21.

bassguitarman

03-26-09, 10:16 AM

I see on Ohio Media watch that WKYC may be moving tower sections around. Hopefully
they will soon be stacking the new tower !

hookbill

03-26-09, 11:04 AM

I see on Ohio Media watch that WKYC may be moving tower sections around. Hopefully
they will soon be stacking the new tower !

I can't even get a hint of an OTA signal currently from them, however I am using just an indoor antenna.

Rbuchina

03-26-09, 12:23 PM

I can't even get a hint of an OTA signal currently from them, however I am using just an indoor antenna.

I have a roof top antenna and I get 3 just fine. My worst reception is WEWS 5. I was hoping when they fixed Nickdawgs line on the screen they maybe fixed their reception too. I tried watching Life on Mars OTA last night and had to revert back to cable after several dropouts in the first few minutes.

Tom in OH

03-26-09, 12:47 PM

I can't even get a hint of an OTA signal currently from them, however I am using just an indoor antenna.

NBC Channel 3 (digital 2) has always been our problem child too. Hopefully we'll both receive it better after June 12th, when they move to digital 17 which is in the UHF range. It seems to be those VHF channels like NBC and CBS (digital 10) that are spotty but they're both very low power as well.

ABC channel 5 (digital 15) has never been a problem but also has more power.

nickdawg

03-26-09, 01:10 PM

I have a roof top antenna and I get 3 just fine. My worst reception is WEWS 5. I was hoping when they fixed Nickdawgs line on the screen they maybe fixed their reception too. I tried watching Life on Mars OTA last night and had to revert back to cable after several dropouts in the first few minutes.

The line was fixed last night, sometime before 7:30pm(when I started watching). ABC-HD primetime was beautiful. Today, I see the damn thing is back. What's their dysfunction? Is it like the vertical hold on one of those ancient TV sets? FIX IT!!

And about WUAB-2, if the date for OTA is April 1, then I think we can expect May or June 1 at least for it showing up on TWC! ;)

jnk_avs

03-26-09, 03:59 PM

TWC Ch. 4 (WOIO, Cleveland 19). Is anyone else experiencing a "no audio" problem with Time Warner Cable Channel 4? I live North Ridgeville, Lorain County. Picture is fine, just the audio is missing and ONLY on channel 4. This started at 10:04 pm on Monday this week. I called their Customer "Support" number yesterday and was told, "wait 24 hours ... all will be fixed" (at least I think that is what they said ... my Spanish is asi asi).

Thanks!

Vchat20

03-26-09, 04:02 PM

WOIO (Channel 11 here in legacy territory) seems to be ok in the audio department down here.

Vchat20

03-26-09, 04:10 PM

nickdawg

03-26-09, 04:12 PM

WEWHD still has the black line during Oprah. Then the whole screen went black. Then a "News Channel 5 On Your Side" screen came on. That splash screen didn't have the black line. Then commercials and HD Oprah returned, with the g-damn black line(and the flickering at the bottom 'edge' of the picture).

nickdawg

03-26-09, 04:25 PM

They can't re-fix the problem they fixed yesterday but they can run the stupid news crawl about about their "On Your Side" job search help nonstop!

I hope some people at channel 5 will be looking for new jobs soon!! :mad:

hookbill

03-26-09, 04:50 PM

Ok. This is going to be annoying if this becomes more common. Hopefully a bug that'll get worked out. Basically on my 8300HDC on rare occasions when turning it on as a warm boot, I won't get any 'picture' in terms of the actual channel that should be coming in. All the navigator menus show and work, but I don't get any audio or video on any of the channels and even the DVR'd recordings do the same thing. Have to unplug the box and reboot it and it goes back to normal. Happened this morning and has been the 2nd occurrence so far in the past ~2 months.

It's more irritating because everyone else in the house keeps assuming it's the tv and when they tell me I'm like 'If it died, I'm gonna cry'. But it's only the stupid box acting up.

Well, either you got a cable card issue (doubtful) or the hard drive on those well built 8300 HDC is getting ready to bite the dust. A box just doesn't "act up" there has got to be a reason behind it and if you're having to reboot constantly it could be your hard drive.

Either burn DVD's or VHS and take the box back before it corks off.

hookbill

03-26-09, 04:54 PM

Tom in OH

03-26-09, 05:05 PM

Vchat20

03-26-09, 05:08 PM

Well, either you got a cable card issue (doubtful) or the hard drive on those well built 8300 HDC is getting ready to bite the dust. A box just doesn't "act up" there has got to be a reason behind it and if you're having to reboot constantly it could be your hard drive.

Either burn DVD's or VHS and take the box back before it corks off.

Actually, I don't think it's so much the disk drive or the cablecard. The symptoms just don't jive with being related to those or else I'd have started to see other issues too like glitching during normal DVR playback (high bitrate HD recordings off WKYC are practically flawless. I record all NBC programming off there these days instead of local WFMJ).

Probably just a Navigator issue knowing everything else.

But hell. If it does die, no loss. Most of the recorded programming is just regular series stuff that wouldn't be missed if it went. Especially now that a lot of the shows have started to end their regular seasons.

nickdawg

03-26-09, 05:13 PM

Don't watch Oprah. That will solve that problem.;)

I don't watch Oprah. I just watched today because the "over 900 pound woman" was on. I'm not a regular Oprah watcher. ;)

Just watching this hour, I can see that 5 is pathetic, for reasons other than the black line on the HD channel. They had a news crawl running from beginning to end about their phone bank. Why not throw some news on the crawl too and make the channel like CNN. Plus there are popup ads after every commercial break about what's coming up on the news. I take it channel 5's biggest competitor is 19! :rolleyes:;)

I still see it at the bottom of the screen on the news, it's the same about 1/2 inch of black space between the picture and the frame of the TV set. Only on channel 5.

hookbill

03-26-09, 05:16 PM

hookbill

03-26-09, 05:19 PM

Actually, I don't think it's so much the disk drive or the cablecard. The symptoms just don't jive with being related to those or else I'd have started to see other issues too like glitching during normal DVR playback (high bitrate HD recordings off WKYC are practically flawless. I record all NBC programming off there these days instead of local WFMJ).

Probably just a Navigator issue knowing everything else.

But hell. If it does die, no loss. Most of the recorded programming is just regular series stuff that wouldn't be missed if it went. Especially now that a lot of the shows have started to end their regular seasons.

It can't be a Navigator issue. If it was you know nickdawg would be on it like flys on you know what as much as he likes to complain.;)

Oh well it's your DVR do as you please but I'd at least try taking it back and getting another one. Heck all it cost is a little gas.

Tom in OH

03-26-09, 05:20 PM

I can't even get a hint of an OTA signal currently from them, however I am using just an indoor antenna.

Hey Hook,
which indoor ota antenna are u using? just curious - Are u able to receive CBS 19(digital 10) and the others (5.1, 8.1, 43.1, 55.1)?

Thx,
Tom

nickdawg

03-26-09, 05:23 PM

I checked 5.1 OTA and it looked fine. I checked 405 TW HD earlier at the start of the news and I saw exactly what nickdawg described. Now I don't see anything at all wrong with the picture.

So whatever it is, it comes and goes, at least it's gone at this moment.

Could this be a TWC issue? Right now on the news, it is still there. Last night Jeopardy, Scrubs, Lost and Life on Mars were normal. The news at 11 was fine too.

I see a problem with the picture: IT'S WRONG! The picture is pushed too far up on the screen. The top of the TV rating bug is butting up against the top of the screen and the ABC network bugs and ads are even more intrusive because the extra /2-3/4 inch of black space puts the screen clutter even higher on the screen than it is supposed to be.

hookbill

03-26-09, 05:24 PM

nickdawg

03-26-09, 05:31 PM

hookbill

03-26-09, 05:37 PM

Hey Hook,
which indoor ota antenna are u using? just curious - Are u able to receive CBS 19(digital 10) and the others (5.1, 8.1, 43.1, 55.1)?

Thx,
Tom

I don't remember the model number but it's a Phillips and it looks like the starship Enterprise with rabbit ears.:)

hookbill

03-26-09, 05:40 PM

5:28pm: I' still seeing it, almost 3/4 inches on the commercials.

Is your TV set to some kind of stretch or something? Maybe your TV is not as good on overscan. All of the other local channels look normal. It's just 405.

5:38 pm. I see so much of the screen that I actually see about a 1/16 of an inch under the "Lee Jordan" banner that was put up. No black, no silver line.

I can confirm I saw it earlier. Not now.

Edit: I'm not stretching.

lbvp

03-26-09, 05:46 PM

Michael P 2341

03-26-09, 06:29 PM

Could this be a TWC issue? Right now on the news, it is still there. Last night Jeopardy, Scrubs, Lost and Life on Mars were normal. The news at 11 was fine too.

I see a problem with the picture: IT'S WRONG! The picture is pushed too far up on the screen. The top of the TV rating bug is butting up against the top of the screen and the ABC network bugs and ads are even more intrusive because the extra /2-3/4 inch of black space puts the screen clutter even higher on the screen than it is supposed to be.The black bar is not TWC's fault. I see it too on OTA and Dish Network, so it's broadcast that way.

I beleive the black bar is there in response to possible complaints about the top VBI flickering line that is seen whenever the picture is not true HD. The rest of our localshave found a different "fix" to VBI, I have not seen it on the rest of the channels lately (it does show up on some SD "cable" channels).

nickdawg

03-26-09, 06:35 PM

The black bar is not TWC's fault. I see it too on OTA and Dish Network, so it's broadcast that way.

I beleive the black bar is there in response to possible complaints about the top VBI flickering line that is seen whenever the picture is not true HD. The rest of our localshave found a different "fix" to VBI, I have not seen it on the rest of the channels lately (it does show up on some SD "cable" channels).

Last night the black bar was not there. ABC HD programming looked normal. Also, when they cut back to affiliate breaks, the black line wasn't there and the VBI flickering was not see either. The picture went from top to bottom of the screen. Even using the "screen position" setting on my TV, -30(the picture pushed all the way down) the VBI lines were completely gone. BOTH problems were fixed last night.

Personally, I'd much rather see the VBI lines, since they are only on commercials and SD upconvert programming, whereas the black line is on ALL programming, even HD, ruining it. Plus(the inner nerd in me comes out) I actually liked the VBI lines. Hey, I think it's pretty cool, all that program and other data sent with the program. Plus you can't see it on SDTV. :cool:

JJkizak

03-26-09, 07:54 PM

I get the line on the bottom occasionally OTA WEWS live news and it does change when they throw on the crawls. The line is so small it is not very distracting however. My overscan is approximately 2.5% according to AVIA test disc. The engineers probably think everybody's overscan is 10% or more so they don't care much.
JJK

hookbill

03-27-09, 11:53 AM

The Consumerist (http://consumerist.com/5186810/worst-company-in-america-ticketmaster-vs-time-warner-cable) is having a vote between Time Warner Cable and Ticketmaster. Vote today. Ticketmaster is winning.

BudgetPlan1

03-27-09, 12:06 PM

hookbill

03-27-09, 12:29 PM

Actually under the vote there is brackets for a variety of different companies that you may or may not hate beyond TW. Direct TV, Comcast are going head to head. Somethings are mismatched.

nickdawg

03-27-09, 02:24 PM

Actually under the vote there is brackets for a variety of different companies that you may or may not hate beyond TW. Direct TV, Comcast are going head to head. Somethings are mismatched.

Too bad Directv isn't in Ticketmaster's place. I voted for TWC, but in reality I think Directv is worse than TWC.

Vchat20

03-27-09, 03:02 PM

Well, I have been toying with the firewire setup a bit more and found what I believe to be a foolproof setup.

Basically using VLC I can dump the raw TS stream to disk and it won't care about minor glitches or anything and keep trudging through. It even flies right through fast forwards, rewinds, stopping and restarting the playback on the dvr. Compare this to CapDVHS which seems to trip over it's own toes.

I dumped the a full 1h episode of L&O:SVU last night from WKYCHD using this method and even managed to nuke 70% of the commercials simply using the DVR controls (and a combo of TS Doctor and Videoredo for the rest). About 41 minutes of video, 2.79GB. (The original untouched 1h minues 5-10m of commercials TS file was like 3.5GB thereabouts) VLC was reading about an average of a 10mb/s rate during the process.

The only thing bugging me is the embedded CC data is really glitchy at least in VLC. Dunno if it's VLC's problem or the data itself is whacko.

Now though I'm waiting for the new HD channels to come around and crossing my fingers that TWC flubs up and doesn't set the annoying copy flags out of laziness/forgetfulness. One can hope anyway. ;) Monk, Psych, Burn Notice, Mythbusters, SVU HD reruns....