Originally posted by mayest
chile62, thanks for letting me know there's a tutorial. I'll look for that.

Wouldn't have known myself if the install tech had not told me. He said I was his first install for the DVR box, won't let the employees have em till next year. Guess were lucky to have them. :D

I just got off the phone w/ Comcast, wondering why I was not seeing the new on screen program guide on my 5100. I was told that Comcast had been having problems with the guide on HD boxes, that it had been freezing up on them. So they are now holding back the new guide for HD boxes for at least a few more weeks while they work out the kinks.

On a side note, are there any advantages in the 6200 over the 5100? Better picture on SD channels? I am considering the DVR, but am wondering if there would be any benefit in having them come out here and switch my 5100 for a 6200.

I leave my Comcast box on all the time (because there are no discrete on/off codes for the motorola boxes, and leaving it on works best with my macro commands on my remote) and am wondering if there would be any problems w/ leaving the 6412 on all the time if I do in fact take the DVR plunge.

Brett

I just made my first foray into OTA HD this evening by hooking up my new SIR-T451 to my HDTV, and I'm not sure it's entirely successful. I'd like to ask a few questions and get your opinions on what I'm seeing:

1. I have an attic mounted antenna and I live in Thornton. The first thing I did is the channel setup on the Samsung and it is receiving the following stations -- KUSA(9-1), KRMA(6-1), KCNC(4-1), and KBDI(38-1). Shouldn't I at least be getting Fox and WB, as I thought they were easy to get? And considering my location, how is it I can receive CBS (KCNC)? I thought that was all but impossible unless you lived near downtown.

2. Here's what really puzzles me. Of the 4 stations, all but KBDI are broadcasting their programs in HD right now, according to the 451's "info" function. Yet, only KRMA looks anywhere near HD, and even so it is no better than DVD quality. At least it is 16:9. Shouldn't my jaw be dropping?

3. The Samsung says that KUSA and KCNC are in HD right now, but the programs are clearly no better than analog OTA quality. Also, both programs are pillarboxed but a little wider than 4:3, kinda more like 1.66:1. Is this what you guys see as well?

4. In other posts in this thread, I see references to channels up in the 80 and 90 range. My 451 stopped searching for channels long before that. It may have stopped at 69 but I wasn't paying close enough attention. Should I be receiving stuff up in those upper ranges?

Sorry for the newbie questions. I've been all through the 451's manual and everything appears to be setup and connected correctly. I have a Terk TV35 in the attic feeding a ChannelMaster 7775. I can fiddle with the antenna position if I have to but it's a real PITA because of where it is.

Any and all comments are appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Not sure why this is in the Comcast, as opposed to the OTA, thread, but here you go:

KCNC (CBS) is not hard to get OTA. You're probably thinking of KMGH (ABC), which is near impossible to get OTA. Comcast carries it, though (keeping this post on topic :) )

Survivor is on CBS right now, and it's not in HD. Anything you see that's not filling your 16:9 set is NOT HD. (The reason it's wider than normal TV is that you're not losing the normally-overscanned left and right edges of the picture)

I'm not aware of any local channels in the 80-90 range. I think 38 is the highest OTA digital channel (and it'll probably remap to channel 12).

Oops, my bad:eek: For some reason I thought I was in the OTA thread. Thanks for the answers though. I'll go post in the other thread.:D

I have bought myself a plasma for Christmas, so I have to get rid of the Mitsubishi WS65 HDTV; it was used only on weekend for football and DVDs (seriously); it works perfectly. I have owners's manual, service manual, and the remote. If interested, you can see it in action in Wheat Ridge, hooked up to Direct TV.

I am asking only $300; bring your own pickup truck!

Mike.

Originally posted by brhow


I leave my Comcast box on all the time (because there are no discrete on/off codes for the motorola boxes, and leaving it on works best with my macro commands on my remote) and am wondering if there would be any problems w/ leaving the 6412 on all the time if I do in fact take the DVR plunge.

Brett

This would probably lead to the hard drive failing earlier than if you were to turn the box off when not in use. But then you don't own box either. I turn mine off, no use listening to the little ticking noise unless you have to. ;)

I have a 6412 on all the time and I'm not aware of any hard drive ticking sound. Maybe I just got a good unit.

Rich N.

Originally posted by raidbuck
I have a 6412 on all the time and I'm not aware of any hard drive ticking sound. Maybe I just got a good unit.

Rich N.

Some hard drives are louder than others, just the luck of the draw. Mine is not really noticeable unless nothing else is on, it's small price for the convenience of DVR.

Originally posted by brhow
I leave my Comcast box on all the time (because there are no discrete on/off codes for the motorola boxes, and leaving it on works best with my macro commands on my remote) and am wondering if there would be any problems w/ leaving the 6412 on all the time if I do in fact take the DVR plunge.

Brett

Brett,

My Harmony remote turns the cable box on and off with no difficulty (at the same time as it turns the TV and HT receiver on or off). The codes are apparently the same for the 2000 series, the 5100, and the new 6412 because I didn't have to change the setup for the remote when I got the 6412. I don't know how you'd find the codes (you should probably ask in the hardware or remote forums), but they must exist because the Harmony can be programmed to do it.

Note also that the 6412 will turn itself on for a scheduled recording if necessary, and then turn itself off again after recording. So, there's no reason to leave it on all of the time.

Tim

Hello again,

Can someone please help out with the following questions--I can't find answers to the following:

1. If connected to a main HDTV with DVI/digital audio, are all the other outputs on the 6412 simultaneously active (can I simultaneously send the composite/RF audio/video feeds to another room)?

2. If the 6412 is set for HD, will the guides/interface still show up on the remotely connected SD TV's in another room (my understanding is that the guides don't show up on downrezz'ed HDTV, but that they do show up on SD channels in the other room regardless).

3. What stretch modes are available for both SD and HD signals that are 4:3?

4. How does SD analog quality compare to that of Directv? How about the SD digital quality?

5. If you sign up for the Comcast trade in your dish/receiver for $400 deal, are people able to talk the installers into letting them keep the dish and associated wiring (just give Comcast an old outdated Directv receiver that's worth very little)?

Thank you very much for helping me out with the above questions,
N

Anyone else getting frequent pixelation/breakups on CBS (654) with a cable card (mits wd-62725)? It is almost unwatchable at times. All other stations are fine - just a problem on CBS.

Thanks!

Originally posted by mayest
Brett,

My Harmony remote turns the cable box on and off with no difficulty (at the same time as it turns the TV and HT receiver on or off). The codes are apparently the same for the 2000 series, the 5100, and the new 6412 because I didn't have to change the setup for the remote when I got the 6412. I don't know how you'd find the codes (you should probably ask in the hardware or remote forums), but they must exist because the Harmony can be programmed to do it.

Note also that the 6412 will turn itself on for a scheduled recording if necessary, and then turn itself off again after recording. So, there's no reason to leave it on all of the time.

Tim

does it do this with discrete codes though? my guess in no. with a discrete code, there is a seperate signal for both "on" and "off". this works best with macros, you run into problems running macros without them. the harmony remote just remembers what should already be on or off, and sends the signal accordingly.

as far as i know there are no discrete codes for the motorola boxes.

The Harmony supports discrete codes as well as remembering whether the device is already on or off.

Not sure whether the Motorola codes in Harmony's database are discrete or not.

I've been searching the other AVS forums for answers to the following questions. Can someone PLEASE help:

1. If connected to a main HDTV with DVI/digital audio, are all the other outputs on the 6412 simultaneously active (I can simultaneously send the composite/RF audio/video feeds to another room)?

2. If the 6412 is set for HD, will the guides/interface still show up on the remotely connected SD TV's in another room (my understanding is that the guides don't show up on downrezz'ed HDTV, but that they do show up on SD channels in the other room regardless).

3. How does SD analog quality compare to that of Directv? How about the SD digital quality?

4. What stretch modes are available for both SD and HD signals that are 4:3?

5. If you sign up for the Comcast trade in your dish/receiver for $400 deal, are people able to talk the installers into letting them keep the dish and associated wiring (just give Comcast an old outdated Directv receiver that's worth very little)?

1. My installer said DVI not activated on 6412. I hooked up component, and composite goes out simultaneously -- I, too, feed this into a modulator so it goes to all tvs with cable connection.

2. Below is from the manual, found online at Motorola.com, on when graphics are displayed:

ON-SCREEN GRAPHICS
The DCT* can generate graphics that overlay the video programming or
fill the entire television screen. Common examples include on-screen
menus (such as the User Setting menu), closed captions, and interactive
program guides. The DCT* overlays these graphics whenever you open
a menu, enable closed captions, or scroll through a program grid.
On-screen graphics are not available on all DCT* YPbPr output setting
and video output combinations:
� On-screen graphics are always available if your DCT* is connected
through the HD outputs (DVI or YPbPr)
� Standard definition connections (S-Video or composite Video) will
only display on-screen graphics if the YPbPr Output is set to 480i
� On-screen graphics will not be displayed when you are using the
IEEE 1394 connection on the rear panel of the DCT*
The YPbPr Output setting can be configured from the on-screen menu.

Given this explanation, you will not see the graphics (guide, info, menu) on a tv in another room if you set the 6412 for HD or even 480p output.

These settings for output (and aspect ratio for your tv/projector) can be changed by turning off the 6412 (while still connected to power) and then pushing "menu" on either the remote or the stb right away.


3. SD analog (2-digit Comcast channels) looks about the same, no worse than usual.

4. In the setup (see 2 above) you select the aspect ratio for your set/projector. There is an "aspect" button on the remote. It seems not to function at all. I control stretch thru my projector; so I'm not sure, w/o experimenting, whether the 6412 can do this. I love the "panorama" setting available through the Sony 300 (my DirecTV/OTA receiver) -- this appears not to be available for the 6412.

5. I have no clue.

Just so you know. DVI is active on the 6412. That's what I'm hooked up on.

I had Comcast call me today and cancel my install of the 6412. He said I didn't sub to the minimum they require for the DVR.
Currently I have the 6200 HD box and basic service to get the locals in HD (since I have satellite for everything else). And I have their High Speed Internet.

I tried CSR roulette but all 3 people I talked to said I needed a digital package that would cost me over a $100 a month (including internet).

Has anyone heard different on this?

Thanks,

Rob

Originally posted by brhow
does it do this with discrete codes though? my guess in no. with a discrete code, there is a seperate signal for both "on" and "off". this works best with macros, you run into problems running macros without them. the harmony remote just remembers what should already be on or off, and sends the signal accordingly.

as far as i know there are no discrete codes for the motorola boxes.

Brett,

You're probably correct. I don't know a lot about this subject, and I'm not sure what my Harmony is actually doing. I did a Google search and turned up this link which has an NCF file for the 6412 (and other Motorola boxes):

http://www.remotecentral.com/files/ind-195.htm

I pretty much use the Harmony only to turn stuff on and off and to control the volume. I prefer to use the TiVo or cable box remotes for other functions.

Tim

Has anyone gotten the 30 second skip feature to work with the 6412? I know that the box is capable of doing this, but apparently it's up to Comcast if it's supported or not (link at broadband.motorola.com/dvr/news_faq.asp#30_skip ).

I also found a link at (add www to begining, I can't post urls because of my post count) broadbandreports.com/forum/remark,11973771~mode=flat
which gives instructions on enabling the code on the remote, but it's for a different remote than the one I got with my 6412. Just wondering if anyone else has looked into this yet, as the 30 second skip is much quicker for me than fast forwarding.

Also, my box frequently will hang for a couple of seconds when navigating through the guide or recording menus, and even sometimes when in the middle of a fast forwarding. The picture keeps playing (or fast forwarding) fine, the box will not respond to any of my commands. All the commands are queued up though, so when the box does respond it then rapidly executes all the stored commands. I had this problem before on the Motorola 6000 when changing channels occasionally, and I think it was fixed by completely powering the box down for a bit, but since doing that will reset all my tv guide info, I thought first I would check with others to see if maybe this isn't a problem with my specific box, but a problem others are getting, most likely because of the newness of the system here. Thanks for any help.

Matt

Matt -- I stumbled across that same thread on broadbandreports.com last weekend. After doing more googling I ended back here on AVS forums and was reading the Comcast - Portland and "Official" 6412 threads. I didn't make it all the way through either thread and have been on the road for a couple days so I haven't been able to dig any more for instructions on how to enable 30 second skip on this ICX Global remote. Let us know if you find anything.

I've had my box hang up a bit as well, but it hasn't been troublesome so far.

Originally posted by Couch Patato
Just so you know. DVI is active on the 6412. That's what I'm hooked up on.

My installer had said DVI not operable on 6412. I connected DVI, after above post.

Picture came on for a few seconds, then brief message came on, with blue background obscuring most of the picture, something like "switch to YPbPr, you have compromised your HD input....." then screen went blank.

Also, my set-up menu doesn't have the DVI output. The 6412 manual reads as follows:


2. Press the MENU key on the front panel. If your TV is on, the
on-screen display menu appears listing the settings you can
configure.
DVI/YPbPr OUTPUT
RESTORE DEFAULTS
*******
Use your remote control or the cursor keys on the front panel to navigate
the on-screen display:
• Press the ▲ and ▼ keys to highlight the setting you wish to
change. Press the ► key to select an option for that setting.
• To exit the setting and move to another setting, use the ▲ and ▼
keys.
• To exit the menu and save your settings, press the POWER or MENU
key.
The HD settings are described in the table on the following pages.
The DVI/YPbPr OUTPUT setting is displayed as YPbPr OUTPUT if you
are not using the DVI video connection. The user settings will also be
displayed on the front panel display whether your TV is off or on.
If the on-screen display menu does not appear on your HDTV screen,
your TV may not support the default video output setting. Use the DCT*
front panel display to view and change your settings.

My displayed menu does not show
DVI/YPbPr OUTPUT
but only
YPbPr OUTPUT,
so the box decides I'm "not using the DVI connection" even when I hooked up DVI. Maybe this is fixed by Comcast download of software change?

I mentioned this in the 6412 thread in the recorders forum in regards to the 30 sec skip. What I did was swing by the Comcast office and get a "regular" silver remote that had a Setup button (unlike the 6412 remotes they're giving us) and then used the codes posted in the 6412 thread for adding Swap/Replay/30 sec skip etc to just any old buttons on that remote. Then I used the Learning function on my run of the mill universal remote to grab the 30 sec skip off the silver one.

Maybe some of you still have silver remotes with the Setup button for other non HD-PVR boxes in your homes where you could do it that way.

I just swapped my 6412 remote for the silver one since I use a universal remote anyway. Although maybe I should go swap back for future considerations. But I could always just do that at some later point too if need be when the time comes.

I'm experiencing brief (1 sec.) audio drop-outs (sometimes accompanied by pixelization sometimes not) while watching recorded HD material on the 6412. I'm using component to TV and optic to stereo. The cables have been used successfully on other components and are firmly plugged-in. Anyone else experiening this? Thanks.

Jeff

When changing the channel to a 2 digit station on the 6412 I have to press the "ok" button after entering the channel number. Higher channels work fine without having to do this. Is anyone else having this minor annoyance and is there way to change it?

Thanks

Originally posted by nu2this
When changing the channel to a 2 digit station on the 6412 I have to press the "ok" button after entering the channel number. Higher channels work fine without having to do this. Is anyone else having this minor annoyance and is there way to change it?

Thanks

I think what you're talking about is needing to go into the Main Menu, then Setup, then Guide Setup. Then change "Channel Entry Behavior" to "Auto Tune" instead of No Auto Tune.

nu2,
The box is expecting 3 digits. I put zeros in front of 1 & 2 digit numbers and it works fine.

Originally posted by DP1
I think what you're talking about is needing to go into the Main Menu, then Setup, then Guide Setup. Then change "Channel Entry Behavior" to "Auto Tune" instead of No Auto Tune.

That did the trick. Thanks Dan.

You may want to try this fix, LaVike. Think of all that wear and tear you're putting on your index finger by entering an extra digit.

nu2,
Thanks! With my new 6412, I find I'm using the "swap" button a lot! So I change to auto tune to save my index finger for all the swapping I'm doing.

LaVike,
How does the "No Auto Tune" option effect the swap button?

Thanks

nu2,
It doesn't. Since I now am using my index finger using the swap function, I've increased the use of my index finger. With "Auto Tune" I will reduce the wear and tear on my fingers.

Just joking around a little.

Originally posted by DP1
If you're already getting Standard cable.. at like 38.00 a month or whatever, yes, all you'd have to add is Digital Classic for 9.95 and the cost of the HD STB rental. Like $5 more. That'd get you the Locals in HD, ESPN HD, Discovery HD, and the 2 InHD's. The Altitude HD feed (on games that are done in HD), which indeed looks really good, just pre-empts one of the InHD channels when it's on air.

Nugget's Game...

My real question: Are the Nugget's Games on 665 really in HD, and do they really work? The game on 665 last night was playing at like half speed with no sound and looked like a 480i signal blown up 200% so you only had the middle of the picture. Clearly something was not working... so we watched on ESPN"HD".

I'm worried the real altitude games will be the same, and was planning to invite friends over to watch the next Altitude HD game. I don't want to do so if they are somehow incompatible with the 6412, or are not 720p or 1080i HD.

Sounds like you have watched one... was that on a 6200? Does anyone know if Altitude HD works with the 6412?

-James

Originally posted by RanmaChan
Nugget's Game...

My real question: Are the Nugget's Games on 665 really in HD, and do they really work? The game on 665 last night was playing at like half speed with no sound and looked like a 480i signal blown up 200% so you only had the middle of the picture. Clearly something was not working... so we watched on ESPN"HD".

I'm worried the real altitude games will be the same, and was planning to invite friends over to watch the next Altitude HD game. I don't want to do so if they are somehow incompatible with the 6412, or are not 720p or 1080i HD.

Sounds like you have watched one... was that on a 6200? Does anyone know if Altitude HD works with the 6412?

-James

What game was showing on 665 last night.. I didnt see any of it. All I can say is the couple Nuggets games from Alt done in HD I've seen shown on 665 have looked about as good as any true 1080i HD video I've seen.

I think those were before I had the 6412 but I have zero reason to believe that they wouldnt be the same difference.. short of some technical glitch on any particular broadcast.

I have an installation scheduled for Wednesday for new service. Does anyone know if a new customer has any sort of money-back guarantee on cable service? (HSI does). What happens if I don't like Comcast compared to DirecTV with DirecTiVo?

Originally posted by RanmaChan
Nugget's Game...

My real question: Are the Nugget's Games on 665 really in HD, and do they really work? The game on 665 last night was playing at like half speed with no sound and looked like a 480i signal blown up 200% so you only had the middle of the picture. Clearly something was not working... so we watched on ESPN"HD".

I'm worried the real altitude games will be the same, and was planning to invite friends over to watch the next Altitude HD game. I don't want to do so if they are somehow incompatible with the 6412, or are not 720p or 1080i HD.

Sounds like you have watched one... was that on a 6200? Does anyone know if Altitude HD works with the 6412?

-James

I believe it is only the home games that will be in HD, so recently there have not been any, but before this road trip, it was HD on 665.

Originally posted by JimD03
I believe it is only the home games that will be in HD, so recently there have not been any, but before this road trip, it was HD on 665.

Having said that, I see the game at Orlando is in HD on 665. Maybe not the best quality, but I am not sure.

:confused: Just got the 6412 installed, upgraded from the HD box. Man the SD channels are noticeably worse!! My setup; I have an older 27" RCA tube below my front projector screen that I watch SD stuff on, it has svideo in but not component. With the old box I hooked up the tube tv with RF coax cable, since the 6412 has no rf out I used s-video. I have tried playing with the menu settings of 4:3 override but nothing compares to previous pic quality (which wasn't all that good...) so I have gone from bad to worse. Anyone else see noticeable drop in SD pic quality? Maybe I should request another box, I could be having a bad signal strength night??, I am really hoping this can be fixed as the DVR part is great :)

This is on Motorola's web site.

Why do analog/basic cable channels look worse than before?
In some cases, there might be a difference in perceived picture quality between analog and digital channels. This may be due to the differences in technologies for transmission of signal types. There are 3 reasons for this.
(1) Analog channels tend to pick up "noise", which is typically processed out on digital channels.
(2) Certain TVs offer different levels of noise reduction (filtering) among their video inputs.
(3) The DVR functionality interjects slight video degradation on analog channels, as part of the conversion process from analog to digital in order to store onto the digital hard drive.

The cable and telecommunications industry is collaborating on a resolution to this issue.



http://broadband.motorola.com/dvr/news_faq.asp

Well that would explain it and that sucks.....because even my wife can notice the difference. Is no one else seeing a difference? I looked for other posts in this thread regarding this but didn't see any. Maybe my old tv just doesn't filter the video inputs as good....

Originally posted by zeff
Well that would explain it and that sucks.....because even my wife can notice the difference. Is no one else seeing a difference? I looked for other posts in this thread regarding this but didn't see any. Maybe my old tv just doesn't filter the video inputs as good....

I watch all SD and HD through my Mits.......haven't really noticed any difference between the two boxes, some SD and analog shows look ok others are more fuzzy. What I find almost unwatchable are some of the SD ABC College football games.

I've been following the Denver Comcast forum for over a year now and just wanted to thank all of the folks who regularly provide advice and answers. You have been a great help.

I've been pretty much a cable guy all of my life - have just about every room in the house wired for cable so don't have too many options. I also tend to upgrade to the latest technology and would have bought a lot of dish systems to get the technology that cable upgrades for free (well almost for free (well you eventually pay for it)).

I live in Parker and have been pretty happy with the TCI/AT&T/Comcast product over the years. I've also coveted HD ever since I saw the Japanese analog system back in 1994 so its been a long wait for me.

I followed the availability of HD in Denver last year and after reading your posts I went for HD in November, 03. I've been very pleased with Comcast HD, given that we are still pretty early adapters. My one big frustration was seeing good movies on HBO and Starz all week and then when it was time to order pizza and show off my HD theater to my friends on Friday night - the 4th rerun of Real Sports and then boxing (with apologies to boxing fans). I wonder if anyone from HBO ever drives past a Blockbuster on Friday?

So I've also been following the rollout of the 6412 box so I could watch those good movies when I wanted to.. When I saw on this forum that it was available a few weeks ago I ordered it and got it installed on Thursday. No call back and no installation fee. I don't know if I was lucky or if Douglas county is different than the rest of Denver, or if I've spent a small fortune on cable over the years.

For folks who are wondering if the extra $4.95 per month is worth it I've got three words - get it now! Its the only way to inexpensively and easily record HD. I'm going to use it mainly to time shift movies - you can go through two weeks of programming, and with a single button click pick out the shows you want to save. Its also has a lot of other great features. I watched the ESPNHD game last night. Since the 6412 automatically buffers 15 minutes of what ever you are watching you can create your own instant replays with your own slowmo and stop frames. It was great for still framing through Vick's last touchdown. Since doing your own replays will get you behind the "live" game you can super fast forward through commercials to catch up. Any way - I think the $4.95 a month adds a whole new dimension to the HD experience and highly recommend it.

Of course I wish the Hard Drive was 300 gigs like everyone else so you have to be careful about the saving what you are really going to watch. I did a crude experiment when I got it and recorded about 4.7 hours of HBO and Starz HD movies (per the posted times). They took up 24% of my drive which works out to a total capacity of over 19 hours. That seems to support that the premium movies come in at a lower bit rate. That should hold 9 or 10 movies and keep me out of Blockbuster on Fridays.

FYI - my tech thought the local Warner Brothers HD channel would be the next HD addition.

Again - thanks for all the advice and answers from the regular posters.

HD Don in Parker.

Originally posted by chile62
I watch all SD and HD through my Mits.......haven't really noticed any difference between the two boxes, some SD and analog shows look ok others are more fuzzy. What I find almost unwatchable are some of the SD ABC College football games.

Are you watching both the SD and HD through Component/DVI or do you have it set up like zeff where he runs the SD out via S-video?

I too have a portable in the room with the projector but I dont see what zeff is seeing because while I used to use the RF out on the 6200 to feed the portable, my portable doesnt have anything but coax in. So what I had to do (short of buying a RF modulator) instead was split the cable before it even got to the 6412. Which is fine.. and the SD PQ is fine but of course then theres no PVR function at the portable. Not that *I* really care because when the portable is on it's just for background noise while I'm at the puter.. not for even remotely serious tv viewing.

And welcome aboard, Don. Good post.

Thanks Dan - your posts have helped me a lot in the past year.

Don

All, there was a question sometime back asking if the component video/optical outputs were active at the same time the analag (composite) outputs were.

They are. I'm currently running component video to my HDTV in the basement, and using an RF modulator, converting the composite outputs from the 6412 to coax, and running to my upstairs TV. Both are active at the same time. I'm using a IR extender to operate the 6412 from the upstairs room.

Obviously, only one channel can be seen on both TVs at once. But it is nice to have the DVR capabilities upstairs or down. Upstairs is the Wife's domain, so it's helps to be able to accomodate her for Oprah and Dr. Phil :)

Randy

zeff,

You can hook up via both S-Video and coax to get both sets of benefits. Split the coax feed like DP1 said. The cable compatible tuner in the TV can display the analog cable material more cleanly and the S-Video input will give you all the rest, along with the DVR functionality. How does the DVR image of the analog channels compare to a VCR recording of the same material?

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

You can hook up via both S-Video and coax to get both sets of benefits. Split the coax feed like DP1 said. The cable compatible tuner in the TV can display the analog cable material more cleanly and the S-Video input will give you all the rest, along with the DVR functionality. How does the DVR image of the analog channels compare to a VCR recording of the same material?

That is a good idea splitting the coax before it got to the 6412 and then run both s-video and coax to the RCA tube. This would give me the best of both worlds......but this tv is also what my wife uses to watch shows and she is the main user of the DVR so it is starting to complicate things. The other problem is that I have component going to my Z1 projector and sometimes (rarely) I watch SD stuff on that and the picture is now terrible as 92'' screen really shows the fuzziness factor. I think I am going to split the signal and see how that goes and just not watch SD stuff on my projector.

How does the DVR image of the analog channels compare to a VCR recording of the same material?

I really didn't record much on VCR, but from what I can remember the VCR recordings of analog were similar to the DVR image. Also some analogs are worse than others (always been the case), watching the Nuggets game last night on altitude is where I noticed the biggest difference. Zoomed out shots of the game i.e. full/half court shots with motion showed clear "fuziness" compared to what it used to look like with my old non-dvr HD box. The motion artifacts really made the players "fuzzy" I almost couldn't tell jersey numbers. I might have a tech come out and check my signal just to make sure that hasn't changed.

Quick question - new to Comcast (as in today) in the Denver Metro area... with a 6412 hooked up...I'm wondering if there is the equivalent of HD-PPV from D*? I noticed that some PPV are "Letter-boxed", but that's not going to be HD, I don't think...

Any thing like that from Comcast?

Rgds,

JohnW

No HD PPV or VOD from Comcast yet. Your only chance to see HD movies is to get one of the premium channels. I assume if you're seeing letterboxing that there's a border on all 4 sides (if you've got a 16:9 TV).

Remember - whenever you talk to Comcast, ask them to add more HD channels.

Hello all,

Just got my 6412 installed today--I'll post my thoughts on it shortly.

By the way: my installer was very knowledgable, and mentioned that Comcast successfully tested digital simulcast of the analog channels (initially channels 1-15) within the last few weeks. He said that digital simulcast ought to be available to everyone within the next month or two--this is very good news for those of us dissatisfied with the quality of analog channels on the 6412.

Also a question: if the 6412 is in the middle of recording something, and I power down the unit to change output modes (via pressing the menu key), will this interrupt/disturb the recording in progress at the time?

Thanks,
N

Originally posted by N123
Hello all,

Just got my 6412 installed today--I'll post my thoughts on it shortly.


Also a question: if the 6412 is in the middle of recording something, and I power down the unit to change output modes (via pressing the menu key), will this interrupt/disturb the recording in progress at the time?

Thanks,
N

I tried that same thing yesterday (ended up with "stretch" for 4x3 override) - and the unit warns you that the recording will be lost if you try that. I suppose the answer to your question is "yes"...

Rgds,

JohnW

BTW, my installer was very "unknowledgable" about the unit. Very nice, but not up-to-speed at all.

Firewire to DVHS...

Are there any restrictions on firewire recording? Are all the premium channels recordable?

Are there any restrictions on firewire recording? Are all the premium channels recordable?

Don't know about firewire to DVHS....but you can record all channels you subscribe too except PPV and VOD stuff.

Also a question: if the 6412 is in the middle of recording something, and I power down the unit to change output modes (via pressing the menu key), will this interrupt/disturb the recording in progress at the time?


I don't know... but if you are channel surfing while it is recording and the menu crashes your box so it reboots... that kills your recording. After it comes back, the box is pretty stupid for about 5 minutes, then you can restart your recording again. It was not a scheduled recording, so I don't know if it would have recovered faster (or at all) during a scheduled show.


Anyone else had this trouble? I never saw it happen my first week, then yesterday I was showing my Sister the difference between HD and SD and the box crashed (like I unplugged it and plugged it back in) while using the guide (selecting "That Seventies Show").

Today it crashed at least 3 times just trying to go forward a few hours to check what is on HBO and INHD. It may have crashed while switching between channel pages twice, but I'm pretty sure yesterday it crashed when I made my selection.

Is this typical and the box will eventually patch itself, or should I maybe request a new box? Could it be signal strength?


Overall I'm still very happy with the unit, but I will be avoiding dual tuners for a while.
^_^
RanmaChan

p.s. Nuggets looked awsome Monday on 665. The 6412 worked fine!

I just subscribed to HDTV service from comcast and they gave be a DCT5100 box - is there much difference from the 6200?

cheers,
bruce

Not that I recall unless you have an interest in HD recording/archiving with a D-VHS deck. The 6200 has a Firewire port and the 5100 doesnt.

Originally posted by leggwork
I just subscribed to HDTV service from comcast and they gave be a DCT5100 box - is there much difference from the 6200?

cheers,
bruce

But to hell with the 6200! Pay a few dollars more & get the 6412 DVR. You will NOT regret it one bit. Trust me.

yeah, I suspect it won't be too long - my wife asked me about the ability to record shows on TV today ...
cheers,
bruce



Originally posted by Couch Patato
But to hell with the 6200! Pay a few dollars more & get the 6212 DVR. You will NOT regret it one bit. Trust me.

Does any one know if the Broncos will be in HD tonight?
Thanks

They'll be on ESPNHD, in HD. I don't think the local broadcast (Channel 9?) will be HD.

Altitude Network - broadcasting in HD since 12/04/2004. When will Comcast subscribers get the network? Any insiders know?

Altitude is on Comcast, Channel 25 (SD). HD games are broadcast on one of the InHD channels (tonight's was on iNHD 2/665). It didn't appear that Altitude's web site had the specifics of which games were broadcast in HD, but something like TitanTV or even the Comcast guide might have that information.

Have you watched one of the altitude broadcasts on InHD? I've never seen them on my channel guide...

I dont think they've listed em in the guide at all. I've come across a few of the HD games just by surfing when they happen to be on.

Originally posted by policy
Have you watched one of the altitude broadcasts on InHD? I've never seen them on my channel guide...

I've watched a few. I think you can count on the home games being on 665 (Altitude HD), though they are not listed in the program guide. Comcast just takes over that channel for the Altitude HD broadcast. Some of the road games are HD there too, also pre-empting the listed InHD program.

I've just got to say that I really like recording local HDTV with the 6412. I switched over from DirecTV, and while I miss my DirecTiVo, the 6412 is "good enough" for me to feel good about saving $360+ dollars these next 12 months and getting more programming at the same time. I really wanted an HD-TiVo, but even with the credit offered by DirecTV, I would've spent a lot of money, rather than saving a bunch.

The picture quality on most channels doesn't seem to be as good as DirecTV. The PQ on the HD channels is indistinguishable between the two. Still, the picture is good enough.

The 6412 is working fine, but I find its shortcomings annoying after coming from the very polished TiVo. I don't like how it doesn't jump back after exiting fast forward, but the "replay" button works fine to jump back I guess. I don't like the (too slow) fast forward speeds and the lack of "skip to tick" when playing back recordings. I don't like how it doesn't remember where I was in the "list" of shows.

I've had really strange behavior with the remote where it doesn't always register. It seems to be related to the glass door on the cabinet, but I don't have issues with anything else. At one point yesterday, it would repeat every command ad infinitum when the door was closed. It was almost like the signal was bouncing off the faceplate and back off the inside of the glass so that the receiver though the command was repeating. Opening the door fixed the problem.

The recording capacity doesn't seem to be as good but I do have some HD on there. I have a 160GB SAT-T60 and I've got tons of shows and movies still on there. I've probably got 20 two hour movies plus all our other shows and suggestions. I feel like I couldn't even get close to 75% of that list with the 6412. I'll have to be more scientific.

I also miss the "Skip-to-tick" feature. Also the "search" logic doesn't seem too robust...for instance I was trying to get "24" into a season pass, and searching for "24" didn't get any listings. However, when I went to the day (Jan 9th) on KDVR-DT, there it was, listed as "24". So - ??

Also - I have found that the IR Receiver seem to be super un-sensitive. I have to point the remote (Harmony 688) directly at the DVR to register. My old HDTivo could pick up the IR from basically just being in the same room as the remote.

All-in-all, though...I'm happy with the Moto6412 and didn't mind cancelling my D* account yesterday. And picture quality on my system seems to be on-par with D* - though the analog channels (2-99) seem somewhat softer but that might change when Comcast starts digital broadcasting in those channels.

Rgds,

JohnW

Does anyone here know if we in Denver have access to the alternate 6412 remote (with "setup"). The lack of the 30-sec skip hack is starting to bug me. If I am reading the other threads right this remote should be the big brother of the silver and black 6208 one. And who designed the all black one anyway? It's truly horrible.

--Jason

Happy with my HLP-5063W,... damn happy.

Originally posted by jasong911
Does anyone here know if we in Denver have access to the alternate 6412 remote (with "setup"). The lack of the 30-sec skip hack is starting to bug me. If I am reading the other threads right this remote should be the big brother of the silver and black 6208 one. And who designed the all black one anyway? It's truly horrible.

--Jason

Happy with my HLP-5063W,... damn happy.



http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4815805#post4815805

Crossposting this from the Denver OTA thread...

I received a message yesterday from Rick Craddock at KMGH saying that they are doing in-house testing now on their fixed DD5.1 setup, and should be ready to go here again in a couple of weeks.

Thanks, Couch, but what Dan was doing was using the 6208 remote to program the hack to a universal remote. I'm trying to avoid popping for a Harmony and see other markets getting an alternate (or maybe the correct) remote for the 6412.

--Jason

I doubt they have the other style remote. They prolly think this *is* the "correct" one even without the Setup button or 30 sec skip button since it does everything else.

Course with the silver remote they give out for the other boxes you can just repurpose some buttons with the Setup function to where it'll do the things you need for the DVR. Swap, 30 sec skip, Replay etc.

Thats basically what I did after swapping the 6412 remote for the silver one. Programmed all the functions into it first.. then when about learning whatever needed to be learned to my Uni. But the silver one would've been fine by itself once it was programmed with Swap, 30 sec skip, whatever (if I didnt choose to use a Uni in general). Just with buttons that fucntioned differently from what they were labeled as. ;)

This is a list of the Setup codes for the various functions:

http://www.hifi-remote.com/cgi-bin2/ueic.cgi?cbl_0476

Yes. You can get the basic package (I think ~$15/month), but then you'll pay for the HDTV (I think that's another $10 - 15/month if you only have the basic package) and the 6412 ($10/month). Again, you may need to call a few times to get a knowledgeable CSR. But you're up to at least $35/month, and you won't get Altitude HD with this package, since those games are broadcast on InHD, which is not included if you have only basic cable. Seems like a lot to pay for ABC in HD, although I guess you'll also be able to time shift all of the locals then. Only you can decide if that's worth it. I'm guessing ABC will be in HD on D* by next season (Sept.), if the Spaceway plans hold schedule.

gakon
Senior Member
____________________________________________________________

Quick question, I have been told that if you have basic cable and a HD tuner either built-in or seperate that you can pick up the local HD feeds from comcast without any additional charges. Meaning for $15 a month I could get ABC HD through comcast. Everything I have read here says you need their box which means more programming and rental fees. Am I missing something, if you have a HD tuner couldn't you just tune them in from basic cable or are they on a higher channel frequency like digital HBO, etc?

Thanks

Any of you guys with the 6412 notice a difference with the volume? There seems to be quite a difference between some channels and in some cases the commericals almost blow me out of my easy chair.

Originally posted by kemical_head


Quick question, I have been told that if you have basic cable and a HD tuner either built-in or seperate that you can pick up the local HD feeds from comcast without any additional charges. Meaning for $15 a month I could get ABC HD through comcast. Everything I have read here says you need their box which means more programming and rental fees. Am I missing something, if you have a HD tuner couldn't you just tune them in from basic cable or are they on a higher channel frequency like digital HBO, etc?


If you have an OTA digital tuner thats QAM capable yes you can use that to tune the HD Locals from Comcast. Though some have had issues I believe getting all the channels sometimes.. not sure whats owed to that except that I dont think Comcast goes out of their way to make sure it works perfectly well that way.

It just depends what OTA tuner you have. Those that are built in to DBS HD receivers for example arent QAM capable, so those dont work with the cable. Some standalone tuners are QAM as well as some of those that are built in to certain HDTV's. So if you have an OTA tuner already, you have to determine if it's QAM capable or not.

Even if you need Comcasts HD STB though, you dont have to sub to anything above Basic to get the HD Locals. You'd have to pay 13.44 for Basic cable and then 6.75 for the HD STB rental.

Thank you DP1

Originally posted by AkaStp
Does Comcast support Cablecard in this area? If so, what is available and what is the cost?

Comcast's web site says that it does support CableCards and that they are free if you have digital cable. They may charge for the installation (insert snide remark here). You should call Comcast to find out more - but don't forget to ask about getting more HD channels. We still need KWGN and TNT.

http://www.comcast.com/Support/Corp1/FAQ/FaqDetail_2651.html

UNHD also!

In case you guys have an extra hour or 2 to spend learning more about the 6412, here is the thread

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=464986&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

It covers a mute problem I was having and many other problems, fixes and opinions. Better bring 2 beers. You may be there a while.

:D

Hi guys,
I'm trying to get the comcast remote to control my Yamaha HTR-5650 receiver which provides the audio in my setup. I can't seem to find a code that works even with the code search function.

any ideas or clues where to look?

I've also tried to go the other way - get the 5100 to be controlled by the Yamaha remote, but the 0456 code doesn't work there!
thanks
bruce

Has anyone found any information about how to download recorded programs from the 6412 to a PC (or, more importantly, a Mac)? I've found information about recording real time, and I've been able to make that work, but I have some recordings that I'd like to save onto DVD, and I can't seem to download them. Even though the quality won't be the same, it would free up a lot of space on the DVR.

Originally posted by chile62
Any of you guys with the 6412 notice a difference with the volume? There seems to be quite a difference between some channels and in some cases the commericals almost blow me out of my easy chair.
I've noticed the same. Does this happen on all receivers? I'm new to Comcast (from DTV), and the poor PQ and the huge volume swings are very annoying. Still, I enjoyed watching CSI, Lost, Alias, and West Wing in HD.

Originally posted by gakon
Has anyone found any information about how to download recorded programs from the 6412 to a PC (or, more importantly, a Mac)?
I would check out this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=403695) if you haven't already. I haven't tried myself, but I did notice a lot of people asking the same question about the 6412 when I read it earlier. Search the thread for '6412' and you'll find three pages of post summaries. Hopefully one of those will answer your question.

I've had the Comcast DCT6200 box for several months now, but connected with component and not DVI to a Sony RP LCD TV.

I just hooked up a DVI cable and I would say HD still looks good, but analog channels have turned to crap. The Sony appears to do a pretty good job of "smoothing" the picture nicely with the component connection, but the pure digital picture looks pretty harsh.

Are there any settings on the box (service menu or whatever) I can mess with to try to make the DVI picture look better? I heard something earlier about a 720p/1080i setting, for example, but couldn't find anything in the basic Comcast on screen menu.

Also, just wondering if those of you that have upgraded to the DVR from the 6200 are still pretty happy with the performance?

Thanks guys

guppy,

I never had a 6200, but it should be the same as the 5100 and 6412 in this respect. If you want to toggle between 720p and 1080i (or set a few other options), just go to the box and press the power button (to turn it off). Now press the menu button and the menu should pop up. You can make changes with the arrow buttons on the box. I currently have my box set to 1080i, but I don't think it makes much of a difference. 1080i seems slightly better, but it may just be my imagination.

I use component with my 6412 DVR and Samsung DLP and the analog channels don't look any worse than they used to with the 5100 box. I'm surprised to hear that the DVI input looks worse. Maybe it has to do with your TV. My understanding is that DVI doesn't do much on the Sony LCDs (it converts the signal back to analog, whereas the DLPs -- Sammy at least -- maintain a digital signal all the way). I haven't tried a DVI connection, probably because I'm too cheap and lazy.

I love the DVR and I'd definitely recommend that you swap the 6200 for the 6412.

I've got a KF50-XBR800 attached to my 6412. I've had the 5100, 6200, and now the 6412 boxes. The analog channels have looked the same to me. I do think that the analog and all SD channels look worse, but that's probably because I'm looking at them on a 50 incher versus the old 25 inch TV.

I've always used component to go from my STB to my Sony. I'm using the DVI for my HTPC. I'm using SageTV on that to capture SD so I don't waste HDD space on my 6412 which I only use for HD material.

I'd highly recommend the 6412. Especially if you don't have another device that can capture TV like Sage or TiVo. I'm finding that I use it although like everyone else here, I wish the HDD was bigger. I've really got to watch how much stuff I've got stored there.

I had the 6200 for about 2 months when the 6412 became available, and I also use an alternate recorder (Tivo) for SD. I'm using DVI. The 6412 seems to be equal in speed to the 6200 as far as channel change goes. However, the occasional lag of the 6412 is annoying at best and confusing at worst. Having become dependent on Pause Live TV from my recent Tivo purchase, and having 0 (zero) options for an HD dvr short of an expensive HTPC, the 6412 was a vast relief. No, it's not perfect. I prefer my Tivo menu and guide to the cobbled together mess that is the I-Guide. The SD is not great. (I actually run a splittter to get the analogs to the tuner in my Sammy HLP, I think it looks better. The GF does not see any diff in PQ <shrug>) But even with it's faults, I think the 6412 is a great value.

I imagine a perfect world in which I could pause the Avalanche (in HD), switch tuners and see another team beat up on the Red Wings (again in HD, maybe even on the Deuce)

Maybe Next Year...

--Jason

Does anyone here in the Denver area have the remote that has a set-up button. I'd like to program it to do the 30 second skip and fix the mute problem but the remote comcast provided me doesn't have the button. I know that other people around the country have the correct remote. I have tried 2 different CSRs at comcast but (believe it or not) they don't know what I'm talking about.

Thanks

Has anyone noticed a real degredation in KMGH's picture quality over the last couple of weeks? I'm watching it OTA, and have seen a huge increase in mpeg artifacting (micro-pixellation) in the picture. Lost and Alias tonight were almost unwatchable because of it. Looking to see if you guys are seeing the same thing watching it from Comcast.

While 7/10'ths of the frame looked good tonight there was a rectangular block on the left & middle of the screen that was very pixalated. Very strange. I would asume there is something wrong with the sever or something like that. It was OTA & on Comcast.

The other thing that has been going on since yesterday is on 9news. During switches from graffics to live cameras or tape to live camers the picture is instantly blurry for a few seconds then it comes back sharp. I guess the night before last, their sever crashed & they spent the night/next day replacing it. They also added 9-2. It's a sub-channel that is suposed to carry 24hour weather info at some point.

Originally posted by markdl
Has anyone noticed a real degredation in KMGH's picture quality over the last couple of weeks? I'm watching it OTA, and have seen a huge increase in mpeg artifacting (micro-pixellation) in the picture. Lost and Alias tonight were almost unwatchable because of it. Looking to see if you guys are seeing the same thing watching it from Comcast.

Yeah, I noticed some problems with KMGH on Comcast during Lost tonight. The D* KABC feed was noticeably sharper, and had full 5.1 audio. Any update on when KMGH is going to put their 5.1 encoder back online?

OK, glad for the confirmation that KMGH isn't just me. :)

Please send Rick Craddock (Rick_Craddock@kmgh.com) an email commenting on the poor picture quality. I send him a message last night, along with a couple of screen shots showing the pixellation, but the more people that he hears from about it, the quicker he'll get his staff working on the problem.

As for KUSA, I'm going to talk to Don Perez today about what they've got going on. There's definitely something that's not right on their end as well, and it happened on Tuesday when they added 9-2.

Originally posted by markdl
OK, glad for the confirmation that KMGH isn't just me. :)



Nope, it definitely isn't just you. I noticed the KMGH problems on Tuesday night during "George Lopez" and the other shows that night. It was absolutely awful.

KMGH picture was terrible on Sunday night again for Desparate Housewives. Is anyone else sending the complaint to Rick? That's the only way they're going to fix it - the Comcast crowd has to up in arms about it. We few OTA people don't make any difference to KMGH.

Last week I got Comcast HD for the first time. Prior to this I had their digital package and some time ago they introduced that much improved guide. The blue one with the grid that allowed to see more than one 30 minute time slot. Now with HD I'm back to the old ugly red thing. I thought I read here somewhere about this but could not find the post. Is Comcast planning to roll out the improved guide for HD at some point?

Also, how many HD channels do people have in other markets compared to Denver. Do we have less and why is that?

Originally posted by jasong911
I had the 6200 for about 2 months when the 6412 became available, and I also use an alternate recorder (Tivo) for SD. I'm using DVI. The 6412 seems to be equal in speed ........

I got one of the first 6412 boxes and the installer told me the DVI out was not functional. He was correct. It still isn't. But Jason's post suggests that he's got DVI out on his 6412? I think if DVI is functional it will show up in the setup menu ( the turn box off --- then push "menu" button procedure) where on the first line the user selects the output for component/DVI. On my menu it only asks for output for component -- DVI not listed.

Are current boxes delivered with DVI active, or is this a software upgrade? Thanks for feedback.

Strage that your DVI is not working. I'm using DVI. I got my box about 5 days or so into the distribution.

Originally posted by ZX-11
Last week I got Comcast HD for the first time. Prior to this I had their digital package and some time ago they introduced that much improved guide. The blue one with the grid that allowed to see more than one 30 minute time slot. Now with HD I'm back to the old ugly red thing. I thought I read here somewhere about this but could not find the post. Is Comcast planning to roll out the improved guide for HD at some point?

Also, how many HD channels do people have in other markets compared to Denver. Do we have less and why is that?

The guide that we have IS the new improved guide with the DVR anyway. It shows 1.5 hours. It's called I-Guid. If alls you have is the HD receiver I would upgrade to the DVR for just a few $'s more a month. It's well worth it.

Originally posted by ZX-11
Last week I got Comcast HD for the first time. Prior to this I had their digital package and some time ago they introduced that much improved guide. The blue one with the grid that allowed to see more than one 30 minute time slot. Now with HD I'm back to the old ugly red thing. I thought I read here somewhere about this but could not find the post. Is Comcast planning to roll out the improved guide for HD at some point?

It was originally supposed to roll out on the HD boxes at the same time as the digital boxes. Then Comcast was having problems with the guide freezing up on the HD boxes, and delayed the introduction on them. Last time I called Comcast about it they said it should appear sometime in January or February. It is supposed to show up at some point.

Brett

Thanks guys! I am tempted to get the DVR after reading these posts.

I just got my hands on a new Comcast HD DVR box at a client's house. We are seeing an odd set of problems and I'm wondering if anyone else in this thread knows what could be going on.

#1. There's no guide or menu visible via composite or S-Video.

#2. DVI only gives us a frozen image that is badly distorted. The picture reminds me of what I've seen from a set top box that isn't able to lock onto a weak signal.

#3. Component video gives us a moving image that is similarly distorted. We do get the guide and menu via this format.

This installation uses a 10 meter HDMI cable running to the newest Panasonic 720p LCD projector. The component video is also 10 meters and is RG59, 3 GHz digital coax. DVD via the component video cable looks great. We suspect the cable box is bad and have arranged for another to be brought out.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Did you make sure that the setup menu items were correct? That might help #2, and maybe #3. Turn the box off, then hit the menu button. I think there are 3 selections: TV type (should be 16:9, I think), DVI/YPbPr (could really be anything, for my Samsung DLP I set it to 1080i and let the TV do the processing) and 4:3 override, which I have set to off.
I haven't heard of problem #1.

#1. There's no guide or menu visible via composite or S-Video.


Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I think if you're tuned to an HD channel you won't be able to see guide/menu via composite, S-Video or RF converter. Tune to an SD channel and check whether guide/menu are visable via those connections.

It appears that there is not a strong enough DVI signal coming from the DVR box to make the 10 meter run on the HDMI cable. I double-checked the setup and neither 720p nor 1080i will make it to the projector. The projector only captures a fragmented still image of whatever program is on. I connected a Sencore HD pattern generator at the source end of the cable. It also did not make it to the projector. With a shorter cable connected directly to the projector, the Sencore image was fine.

My customer may have to invest in a DVI/HDMI repeater or booster amp. Geffen offers one that allows for up to 100 meters (330 ft). It retails for $250.00. Does anyone know of a less expensive device for long runs?

My customer's DVR was behaving better this morning via component video. I got a decent image from all channels. We had Comcast re-initialize the box last night. There was no improvement after waiting 45 minutes. It appears that something finally clicked in over night.

No guide or menu appears via composite or S-Video on any type of channel. We checked several. Comcast is bringing another box tomorrow. We'll see if the guide/menu problem persists on a new box.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

JKM...

I thought I read something about DVI being disabled on some 6412's being delivered nationwide by Comcast. It's in the 6412 (I-Guide) roll-out thread...

I'd ask for a replacement, pronto.

--Jason

Originally posted by GeorgeAB


No guide or menu appears via composite or S-Video on any type of channel. We checked several. Comcast is bringing another box tomorrow. We'll see if the guide/menu problem persists on a new box.


The menu/guide graphics won't display out of composite or s if the output of the 6412 is HD. (720p or 1080i). It might not display if output is 480p -- I can't recall. But when output is 480i, the menu and guide will be output on composite and s-video.

As noted above, you change these by power button "off,' then "menu." Of course, if the box is set to HD output and you do this, you won't see the setup menu on a monitor receiving the stb by composite or s. So look on the stb display and hit the down arrow once (to bypass the aspect ratio setting) and then use side arrows (remote or on the box) to get to 480i displayed on the stb. Then the setup menu will appear.

I go through this occasionally when I want to see the 6412 guide to set up a recording, but I don't want to drop the screen and turn on my DLP projector (limited lamp life). I just turn on the 6412 box, turn it back off a few seconds later, then push "menu" on the box, and the box displays "16:9" which is the first line on the menu if I could see it on the monitor. Arrow down on the box to what is the next line on the menu -- the resolution output selection -- and use side arrows to get to 480i. The setup menu then appears on my small monitor which is fed composite, and which w/o the non-HD output wouldn't display the guide and menus. Then I turn stb back off (setup menu disappears), then back on, then use remote and guide to set up recordings, or to check VOD movies available, etc. --- whatever I need from the menus which otherwise will not display on the monitor.

Cumbersome, but it's the only way to see the menu and guides on anything fed composite. You are also outputting to a 16:9 HD, so don't forget to change back to HD output or the pq on the HD display will be 480i. Both the component (HD)and composite/S (SD) can output at the same time -- which is good; too bad the graphics overlays won't go out with the SD picture.

Since the Sencore pattern generator wouldn't pass signal over the HDMI cable either, the DVR's DVI jack is probably enabled, but the cable is too long for the signal level it's putting out. I could get a partial image of the program it's tuned to, but the image is frozen and distorted.

It appears that for now the Geffen DVI amp is the most affordable unit out there enabling long cable runs.

My customer is not the kind of user who will want to bother with all the steps necessary to switch the box's output from HD to SD for the guide and menu. I'll send him the procedures any way. Perhaps Comcast will come up with a firmware fix for this or develop a better box. Thanks for the help.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

DId anybody watch the inauguration today on KMGH? It was (supposed to be) in HD, but I recorded it and watching it tonight, on 652 KMGH-DT, it's all SD. Over in the HD Programming forum - everyone's raving about how great it looked. :-(

I have the 6412, btw.

Rgds,

JohnW

It wasnt a Comcast issue (wasnt in HD OTA either)... KMGH was asleep at the wheel. Not surprisingly. They've blown it a few times on non primetime HD events recently.

Originally posted by GeorgeAB
My customer is not the kind of user who will want to bother with all the steps necessary to switch the box's output from HD to SD for the guide and menu.
Alan,

I don't think all that is necessary. This is from the User Guide pp 11-14:
----------------
... On-screen graphics are always available if your DCT* is connected
through the HD outputs (DVI or YPbPr) ... Standard definition connections (S-Video or composite Video) will only display on-screen graphics if the YPbPr Output is set to 480i ... 4:3 Override: 480i displays non-high-definition programs in their original 480i format. Graphics overlaying the video are displayed.
-----------------
Thus, graphics will always appear on the HD monitor via DVI or YPbPr. Graphics will appear via composite, s, or RF converter if: (a) DVI/YPbPr is set to 480i (OR) (b) 4:3 Override is set to 480i AND the box is tuned to a non-HD station.

My setup is: Component to HDTV, S-Video to HDTV (so I can watch it in a PIP -- my TV won't display DVI/YPbPr in a PIP), and RF converter to a non-HDTV in the bedroom. If, for example, I'm watching in the bedroom all I need to do is tune to a non-HD station and the graphics are there. Ditto re the S-Video connection.

Jeff

Anyone notice the HDTV category in the VOD section? There have been a few IMAX movies there for a while and I just noticed that Shrek 2 and The Terminal have been added. I think they are all between $3.99 and $5.99. Will be interesting to see how this grows. Anyone order any of the IMAX movies yet that you would recommend?

Clint

Originally posted by jeffcmcc
... 4:3 Override: 480i displays non-high-definition programs in their original 480i format. Graphics overlaying the video are displayed.
Jeff
\
thank you Jeff. this is much easier solution (than my prev. post) to getting the Guide and Menu when viewing a monitor getting the 6412 via composite or S-video. I have re-set my 4:3 override to 480i.

Additional advantage for me with this setting is it that it allows me to zoom/enlarge a "widescreen" movie to fill my 16:9 screen. Some of the Comcast VOD movies that are in the "widescreen" menu aren't 16:9 but are letterboxed 4:3. which on a 16:9 screen is a really small picture -- black bars both vertical and horizontal. My projector will upconvert any input, but it won't let me change size or shape of an HD signal. When 4:3 comes to the projector as (override setting) 480i rather than HD, I can enlarge it.

I am still struggling to get DVI enabled. I get blue screen message saying, approximatley: "the high def copy protection has been compromised by your display, please use YPbPr for connecition." Then after perhaps 5 seconds, the display goes dark. This message overlays the blue iGuide info panel in background, so I know the DVI cable connects the box to the projector.

I finally reached a Comcast tech Saturday who said he had an explanation and a fix. He said my firmware (ver. 9.12) was outdated, that there had been a fix for this, that I should have firmware 12.xx, and we then went through the sequence to download. After some 20 min. of download, same firmware in the diagnostics menu. (You reach this diag. menu by power off - select, and "d08" is the eighth line in the menu, where your current firmware and software is displayed.) After failed download, tech scheduled Comcast service that very afternoon to replace the stb.

New box: same version 9.12 firmware, same result: blue msg screen, brief DVI connection, then dark screen.

Is there a forum member connected via DVI who can check firmware setting and report here? Confirming that this is the issue would be helpful. The new box they brought out had no marking anyplace, on the packaging or the box itself, that the tech could find to give a clue as to what firmware was in that box. Yet tech had said all new boxes would have the 12.xx software which would allow DVI connection.

My Samsung HLN617 does connect properly via DVI. I have firmware 9.12 (last time I checked - it's also in the cable box setup under the Menu). If I do NOT have a DVI cable connected to both the TV and the 6412, the menu selection from the 6412 only reads "YPbPr Out". If I connect the DVI cable, it reads "DVI/YPbPr Out" (but only on the screen - in the 6412's display I still don't see "DVI").

I think I've stated this before, but if you need help, you really should provide more information about your setup (TV Type, 6412 settings, are you able to connect other devices via DVI, etc.). You may have posted some of that already, but some of us aren't going to back to find all of your old posts.

Gakon's post suggests this is not a firmware problem if he connects via DVI with same firmware as in my box. I'm still wondering if any 6412 user has firmware ed. higher than 9.12?

System: I have DWIN TransVision 3 (DLP) projector which successfully handles DVI input from both Bravo D1 (DVD) and Sony HD300 (DirecTV and OTA). The Dwin had a circuit board upgrade a year ago or more, to be fully HDCP compliant for any source. My attempts at DVI hookup have been with same DVI cable that carries successfully the DirecTV box to the Dwin, so I know the cable is fine.I have Motorola tech and Comcast working on this with assurance it will get done... We'll see. This may be a Dwin issue, but Motorola tech also believed I should have firmware 12.xx although this weekend tech didn't have access to more info on this.

Like Gakon's experience, if my DVI port on 6412 has a DVI cable attached, I get the "DVI/YPbPr Out" displayed in second line of User Settings, and if no DVI attached to the 6412, it reads only "YPbPr Out."

thanks for feedback.

Originally posted by JKM


Is there a forum member connected via DVI who can check firmware setting and report here? Confirming that this is the issue would be helpful. The new box they brought out had no marking anyplace, on the packaging or the box itself, that the tech could find to give a clue as to what firmware was in that box. Yet tech had said all new boxes would have the 12.xx software which would allow DVI connection.

I have 9.12 & DVI has worked from day 1.

How about FireWire? Is anyone using their FireWire port successfully for archiving programs to tape?

JKM - although it was a while ago, I do remember that messing with the settings from my old 5100 (before the 6412's were released) DID result in an HDCP error message, but I was unable to recreate it now. I tried all modes on both 4:3 Override and on Output without any error messages. The 480i and 480p modes on Output messed up the picture (stretched wide, bars around all edges on CSI:Miami), but it still played.

GeorgeAB - I have not been successful transferring recorded programs from the 6412 to an iMac. I only borrowed an iMac capable of doing this for a short while (mine needs both a larger hard drive and newer version of OS X), and I was able to record live programs, but not recorded programs. This may be a copy protection issue - the live programs I tried were on NBC, but the recorded one was from Discovery HD. There are many threads that deal with firewire recording - search that word and you will find information for both the PC and Mac and information about DVHS recording as well. Although I am not an expert on this, I don't think that the process of recording to a computer is all that easy just yet. But it seems to me that it might be easier to tape to a DVHS machine.

gakon,

I'll get the correct FireWire cable and try it with my Panasonic D-VHS recorder. The Panasonic is supposed be compatible with the 5C copy scheme. I was able to use it to record protected programs from DishNetwork before they rendered my Dish 5000 obsolete. The newer programs would not copy from tape to tape, to a second Panasonic D-VHS machine. Some of my older tapes would, however. The older programs were probably not copy protected.

I have read of Comcast customers in other parts of the country successfully copying DVR recordings via FireWire. When I received my DVR, I asked the installer if the ports were enabled. He assured me they were not. However, one thing I have learned about cable and satellite installers is that they often do not supply accurate information.

As soon as I obtain a 6 pin to 4 pin IEEE1394 cable, I'll try recording. I will report back on my results.

jeffcmcc,

Thanks for the helpful information. I have not had time to thoroughly examine the manual. When I was given my DVR, no manual came with it. The installer said no manual was available and I would have to use the on-screen menu to learn how to operate the thing. My customer was given one but there was not time for me to read the thing in detail.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

GeorgeAB,

I you have not seen this thread it should help. The last few pages should have some things about the 6412. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=353608

I record via Firewire to a Mits D-VHS unit. I used to with the 6200 as well but now with the 6412 not as much since I dont archive as much as I simply timeshift.

All good news. Thanks!

I now get the DVI signal from the DVR at my customer's house! The fault was with the cable, just not the length issue. I picked up an identical cable and ran it directly to the projector across the floor. It appears that the electrician abused the HDMI cable when he retro-wired to the projector with the wiring I gave him. The customer insisted that his electrician run the wire, rather than me. I expect the electrician was cheaper.

I don't presume to know enough about high voltage to wire a project for a customer. There are plenty of electricians out there who think they know how to wire a home theater system correctly with low voltage components. Even when you explain to them what to do, some will ignore your instructions. Now I have to try and pull a replacement cable through the floor joists in the ceiling without damaging it in the process. I won't give in the next time. At least I have no doubt now that 33 feet of HDMI cable can carry the signal successfully, even with a DVI to HDMI adapter added.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Glad you got it working! :)

Do all Nuggets games appear on ch. 655? Is this an exclusive Altitude HD channel or are the Nuggets games pre-empting InHD programming?
I am a D* subscriber and am considering making the switch to Comcast.

There are only select Nuggets games that replacing normal InHD2 programming on 665. It seems most of hte home games, but there have been a few away games on there also. It would be nice if Altitude had more programming carried there. Lacrosse would be awesome to watch in HD.

I'm not entirely sure, but I believe that the agreement was that any Altitude HD content (at least Nuggets games) would be carried on that InHD channel. For now, at least, this is a Comcast exclusive. I'd be willing to bet that the satellite companies could come to a similar agreement if they wanted to.

It appears that Fox 31 has finally stopped that ridiculous partial stretch on 655, at least for the 9:00 PM news. I hope this is permanent as the PQ is much improved.

How many hours does the 6412 let you record in HD??

Originally posted by musiclover408
How many hours does the 6412 let you record in HD??

About 15 hours, just like my old Series 1 TiVo that I got in 1999 except in HD.

What are you guys who have multiple 6412 boxes paying for the extra recievers? I picked up a 2nd 6412 yesterday and Comcast is charging me $16.99 extra per month for it and that's a "special" price for the first year.

Most members in other areas of the US report that they are paying $9.99 each for extra boxes.

Why the discrepency?

Also, I've noticed my new box doesn't hiccup or glitch when playing back recorded HD material. The first box I got does this all the time.

I finally got a DVI cable just to see what the fuss is all about. I got a 3ft DVI cable from HDTV Supply for only $30. I thought that was a good deal.

I don't see any significant PQ difference between component and DVI. Has anybody noticed a difference? I always thought component was about as good as it can get, but I heard DVI was better. I do think the picture is a bit brighter, or something, but its nothing to get excited about.

This is on a June 2003 Samsung DLP (HLN 507W).

Similar results here with a DVI cable - minor improvement in PQ and much different contrast/brightness over component. That's why I use my one DVI input for my DVD player. I have a similar vintage set (August 03 HLN617).

Interesting that this thread has seen very little activity over the past few weeks, even with Comcast's rate increase announcement. I guess no one has any issues. I've spent a lot of time reading up on the 6412 thread, but I don't seem to have nearly as many problems as reported there.

Yup--I think you're right . . . the lack of activity in this board may be secondary to satisfied customers--too busy watching/time-shifting great HDTV programming!

But as long as I'm posting: does anyone have an update on when the Comcast digital simulcast of analog channels will begin in Denver?

Also, does anyone know what/when any new additional HD channels will be added?

Thanks,
N

Originally posted by N123

Also, does anyone know what/when any new additional HD channels will be added?

Thanks,
N

A few rumors about ESPN2HD at sometime later. Less rumors about UniversalHD. "Negotiations" with HDNET, but not hopeful. TNT-HD no chance.

I'm pretty pessimistic at this point abut Comcast adding any channels soon. I don't know if it based upon economics (no financial benefit to Comcast in adding these channels, no incentive to meet satellite competition yet) or waiting till next year after the digital simulcast.

At this point I would welcome 2HD before the baseball season, but that looks like it won't happen.

Of course, I never felt Comcast would reach agreement with Sinclair, so maybe they'll surpise me again. I hope so.

Rich N.

Originally posted by AkaStp
Did anyone else have problems with no audio during 8 Simple Rules (2 back-to-back episodes) in HD and Hope & Faith (1 hour special) in HD on ABC from KMGH via Comcast HD this past Friday evening?

Yes, there was no audio. Very frustrating. Also, "Joey" was shown in 4:3 on KUSA last Thursday. I wish these stations could get their act together.

On a similar note, I noticed last night (I don't watch a lot of PBS) that KRMA HD channel 658 has switched to the all HD (or widescreen) programming again. That's great, except that Comcast is still showing the same programming in the guide as channel 6.

When the tech. installed my Comcast DVR a few weeks ago, I asked about new HD channels. He said that Comcast does not have the bandwidth to add
new HD channels other then the locals. If you want HD, go to Voom I watch
all available HD channels including TNTHD and USD plus 35 more that will be added next month.

Originally posted by still75
When the tech. installed my Comcast DVR a few weeks ago, I asked about new HD channels. He said that Comcast does not have the bandwidth to add
new HD channels other then the locals. If you want HD, go to Voom I watch
all available HD channels including TNTHD and USD plus 35 more that will be added next month.

Until Voom adds a DVR (a real one you can purchase, not just a prototype) and HD Locals a lot of people will not bite.

Originally posted by still75
When the tech. installed my Comcast DVR a few weeks ago, I asked about new HD channels. He said that Comcast does not have the bandwidth to add
new HD channels other then the locals. If you want HD, go to Voom I watch
all available HD channels including TNTHD and USD plus 35 more that will be added next month.

Ack!! A Voom fanboy has invaded our friendly little cable group.:D

I don't believe that Comcast tech. Comcast has upgraded the network here and should have more than enough bandwidth (850 Mhz, I think). In some other parts of the country, they are short of bandwidth and that may impede new additions for awhile. Furthermore, at some point this year, they will be moving to an all-digital delivery system that will eventually free up gobs of bandwidth.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the gist of what I've been reading on these forums.

They have enough bandwidth. Or at least they did.

I just noticed my Motorola box is now getting the Denver locals 2,3,4,6,7,9,12,13 via digital instead of the old analog signals.

I just noticed my Motorola box is now getting the Denver locals 2,3,4,6,7,9,12,13 via digital instead of the old analog signals.

Excellent! How could you tell?

Originally posted by cohall
Excellent! How could you tell?

I noticed the other night when we had an outage. LOL

Usually I get some kind of signal on 4 or 9 when the cable goes out. I got nothing. I even hooked up an antenna to the box and nothing came in which was really abnormal.

When the cable came back on, I hooked the cable up halfway where the signal on analog was terrible; the locals came in perfect!

I then checked on the screen where you can get the info about a tuned in channel. It said they were digital at around 570 mhz.
You can get to that menu by hitting power off and then select if I remember correctly.

DJ Rob is correct! That is very cool. I just found the instructions for getting into the diagnostics menus on the 6412. Lots of interesting stuff in there, though I don't have a clue what most of it means. If you want to check it out here are the steps:

1) Change to the channel you are interested in.
2) Turn off the cable box.
3) Quickly press the OK button on your remote.

That will bring up the diagnostics. The menu on which to check the delivery method is d06. I only checked a few of the local channels and they were all digital. However, channel 5 (CET) shows analog.

On one of the menus, I even found my cable box's IP address. Naturally, I couldn't access it from my browser.:mad:

I was at a friends house in Centennial playing with his new Cablecard Mitsubishi. He doesn't have the card.

We did a scan with the cable hooked up and found the std-def digital locals. Unfortunately, I couldn't find the HD locals.

I read that cable companies are starting to simulcast the sd digital locals. This would allow them to save some money by removing the analog tuners in the STBs. It sounded like the Analog transmission isn't going anywhere for awhile (too many people still using analog cable ready tuners). The digital feeds should also be better for the PVR.

Question: Are you sure the Digital SD locals are an impovment over the analog? Doesn't it depend on the compression? Satellite locals look like crap (buy they are carrying more then 500 local channels).

Originally posted by David_Levin
Question: Are you sure the Digital SD locals are an impovment over the analog? Doesn't it depend on the compression? Satellite locals look like crap (buy they are carrying more then 500 local channels).
I'm not sure the digital SD locals will be better. However, I just swtiched to Comcast from DirecTV in late December, and I immediately noticed that the Comcast SD local channels look way worse than DirecTV. I was watching DirecTV through a Sony SAT-T60 TiVo hooked up with S-Video. I am watching Comcast through a Motorola DVR6412 set to output 480i for SD channels through the component cables. ALL the SD channels are worse, but the analog channels are particularly bad.

Considering how much more Comcast will be after my one year promo runs out, if the PQ is still this bad I'm definitely going to switch back to DirecTV. Maybe they'll have their MPEG-4 system worked out by then with HD LiL.

So I wonder if Comcast will start simulcasting all of their analog channels on digital if they want to scrap an analog tuner...hmmm...and why are they just doing the locals so far?

The digital SD locals on comcast look very soft to me.
I also have Dishnetwork and they are softer than Dish's Denver locals which are pretty compressed.

I however don't notice the "blocking" that I see on Dish.

When I watch local stations, I usually just tune in their HD feed - even when the programming is only 4:3 to get the best picture.

Originally posted by DJ Rob
When I watch local stations, I usually just tune in their HD feed - even when the programming is only 4:3 to get the best picture.
I've been doing the same, even though it takes a lot more space on the DVR, because the PQ on SD programs is so poor. We like to watch Extreme Makeover: Home Edition with the kids and I record it on the HD channel just for the improved quality of the SD picture.

Is anyone else seeing pixelation and dropouts on KUSA and KRMA's HD programming today?

I'm watching Blind Justice (Over-The-Air PVR 921 delayed). What a mess. Was staring at the end of a cell phone commercial while the sound went on normally for 5-10 minutes. Are they paying any attention to what they are sending out?

Finally ABC switched to the SD feed before jumping back to HD. Sound and picture have been in and out.

Are you Comcast folks seeing the same thing?

Yep, same thing happened on Comcast HD.

KWGN-DT is on comcast tonight. I am getting it on my QAM tuner on 84-2.

Lee,

I'm thinking that must be the digital simulcast. I can't find the HD channel on my system, at least not in the usual HD channel range. Have you seen any actual HD, or even widescreen SD material on that channel?

Yes I have seen HD. I watched Smallville last night in HD.

The SD simulcast is located on 81-7.

They must have changed the lineup yesterday at some point. I lost the 4 HBO channels I was getting off my QAM tuner w/basic cable. I'll see if I get 84-2 tonite. tx!

Originally posted by Lee Smith
Yes I have seen HD. I watched Smallville last night in HD.

The SD simulcast is located on 81-7.

Thanks! I hope this means that they are testing the channel and we'll be able to get it soon on the digital boxes.

84-2 HD is working for me to. Here's my updated HD basic cable QAM lineup:

18-2 CBS, KCNC
84-2 WB, KWGN
90-2 Fox, KDVR
91-1 PBS, KMRA
91-2 NBC, KUSA
119-1 ABC, KMGH

BTW - Does anyone in the local area receive TVGOS (TV Guide On-Screen) from their TV? My rig, a Toshiba 62HM94, has TVGOS as a feature, but it's never worked- it never populates with data. I have the cable plugged directly into the TV (no cable box). I've been dealing with Toshiba and TVGOS CSRs for months now with no results.

tx
dsr

I'm considering a MyHD MDP-130 HDTV tuner PC card. It is able to tune unencrypted QAM channels. From reading this thread, it does look like Comcast carries locals in HDTV via QAM. Can anyone confirm and, if so, is it unencrypted?

The card manufacturer (Digital Connection) claims that carrying these "must carry" local channels unencrypted is required by FCC, but sometimes this rule is not followed by local cable providers. (http://www.digitalconnection.com/Products/Video/mdp130.asp)

Would the answers to the above be different for Boulder (where I live) vs Denver?

Any help on the above would be appreciated!

Thanks
bb

I'm in Boulder and I'm able to get the local hdtv stations unencrypted over the digital cable. basically the channels posted just above are what i see.

bb - yes comcast broadcasts local HDs unencrypted, and you can pick them up off your QAM tuner. I listed the ones I get in the post right before yours. There's some variation depending what part of town your in. I'm in Littleton.

dsr

Thanks for the quick responses!
bb

Originally posted by AkaStp
Oh, one more thing, upon checking the COmcast web site yesterday I noticed that they have KWGN (WB) digital HD listed as being added at the end of this month on channel # 656.

Good news! Thanks AkaStp. I quit checking that site a long time ago as it didn't seem like they ever updated it.

As of today KWGN HD is online!!!!

Originally posted by bb80301
I'm considering a MyHD MDP-130 HDTV tuner PC card. It is able to tune unencrypted QAM channels. From reading this thread, it does look like Comcast carries locals in HDTV via QAM. Can anyone confirm and, if so, is it unencrypted?

The card manufacturer (Digital Connection) claims that carrying these "must carry" local channels unencrypted is required by FCC, but sometimes this rule is not followed by local cable providers. (http://www.digitalconnection.com/Products/Video/mdp130.asp)

Would the answers to the above be different for Boulder (where I live) vs Denver?

Any help on the above would be appreciated!

Thanks
bb

bb- I can confirm. I just installed 2 MyHD 130's yesterday, and after scanning ended up with exactly the channel list posted above for tunable channels.

Did anyone else loose KMGH on 119.1. It's been a couple days since I've seen it?

I couldn't tune to KMGH on 119.1 or to KWGN on 84.2 last night when I tried. Both just showed black screens.

I checked my Sanyo TV last night and it said that the channel was scrambled. I did not check KWGN, but it sounds like there was a configuration change that scrambled the two locals. I thought that there was a FCC rule that had required locals to be 'in the clear.' If so, then as my Spanish-Italian roommate would say, 'Que Pasta?'

Anyone else missing several HD channels off of their QAM tuner? If I can remember correctly, I think I lost CBS, WB, and ABC. Maybe all the channels have been reshuffled.

I haven't taken the time to rescan mine yet, as picking up the channels from comcast is secondary to me as I get them all OTA.

info only....
on april 2nd comcast did an audit of some sorts and installed a "tap/filter" on my line at the pole. it degraded my picture and knocked my internet offline. the guy came by today to remove the tap but i still get white lines on channels i had perfect before. need to rescan to see if QAM HDTV was/is affected. just to let yall know what might be coming to your area, so that way you dont spazout and try to figure out why it all worked great yesterday but its all messed up today.

chuck

Mine's exactly the same.

When I scanned my channels, I also see that they reorganized the SD Broadcasts in the 81-x range, and it appears that I'm getting some SD Starz channels now at 85-10, 93-10, 93-11, 93-12, 103-10, 108-5 and maybe 119-6.

dsr

Voom just closed it's doors. They are gone, and they will cut the signal on April 30,2005. That is about all the page at http://voom.com says. I guess it is time to welcome our voom friends to the comcast fold.

Benzyl

In case some of you haven't been wandering through other threads, we're supposed to get TNT HD at the end of April. Comcast is also working with Universal HD (I think this is a conglomeration of several NBC affiliated HD channels), ESPN2 HD, and UPN. Unfortunately, I don't think we'll see a UPN HD channel here in Denver until KTVD provides a digital signal, and I can't offer any timetable for the other two, but I'm hoping we get more this summer.

Interesting that one of Comcast's execs was talking about trying to get ESPN to create a single HD channel, given the limited amount of HD content on either ESPN or ESPN2. He was doubtful that it would happen, but it's a good way to add more content without using up bandwidth that could (if Comcast were so inclined) be available for other HD channels.

Hornets at Nuggets were not broadcast in HD last night.

Has anyone found a schedule yet of the Altitude games that Comcast is providing in HD?

I probably shouldn't even try to answer given that I'm not a basketball fan, but its been slow around here lately.

I believe that they are supposed to broadcast all of the home games in HD (subject to blackout rules, I'm sure) and any away games that are in HD and made available. I could be wrong though, or maybe they had technical problems last night? Maybe they invited the KMGH engineers over to help out with the production.

td99,

I checked the last 2 home games and couldn't find the HD broadcast...:(

I have never seen a schedule for the HD broadcast, I usually just go to 665. I wouldn't even know about them if I hadn't been following this forum.

I scanned around all the channels to see if they were broadcast on another channel, but no luck.

I do hope they will be showing the playoff games - it's been great fun to watch the nuggets since the all - star break and I must say that I think the HD broadcast is even better than being at the game!

Hello all,

Have any of you noticed blurring/motion artifacts on WB HD in the last day or two? This has been a real problem on a couple of programs I've recorded on the Motorola DVR (this problem does not occur with other HD programs I've recorded on other channels).

Also, any update on TNT HD?

Thanks in advance,
N123

I have not watched The WB since last Wed., but during Smallville, It would be very jittery during fast camera motion. It was on OTA & Comcast. Network or KWGN problem.

I have analog comcast cable which was activated for one month free for new homeowners in my neighborhood.
I hooked up my TV with QAM tuner and did an initial scan. Besides the local HD stations and music choice I noticed I was receiving movies similar to HBO and Cinamax movies. I did not watch until the end of movies to see what stations they were. I would be receiving a singal, then two hours later there would be no signal, but the same station would be on another channel. Can anyone explain what is going on and what station exhibit this behavor. Just trying to figure it out.

Originally posted by pezzulca
I have analog comcast cable which was activated for one month free for new homeowners in my neighborhood.
I hooked up my TV with QAM tuner and did an initial scan. Besides the local HD stations and music choice I noticed I was receiving movies similar to HBO and Cinamax movies. I did not watch until the end of movies to see what stations they were. I would be receiving a singal, then two hours later there would be no signal, but the same station would be on another channel. Can anyone explain what is going on and what station exhibit this behavor. Just trying to figure it out.

OnDemand maybe?

Anybody notice that Fox 31 (KDVR) is back to stretching their SD material on the HD channel? This time its a full stretch instead of the partial stretch they used to do. I didn't think it was possible, but is worse than it used to be.

I believe it started this weekend, and I just assumed that they had some intern in the control room. However, they are still doing it tonight. They don't have direct e-mail addresses on their Web site, so I just sent one using their "Contact Us" page. I hope it gets to the right person.

Anybody know Libby Weaver's e-mail address? I'll bet if she got a look at it, the stretch would be gone post-haste.

Originally posted by AkaStp
Anyone know whats the latest ETA for TNT-HD from Comcast in our area?

I keep hoping somebody will report it is on in Denver any day now. Is anyone even sure that Denver is one of the markets where it will be added?

I've talked to 3 CSR's in the past couple of days. The first said we would get TNT HD within the next month, the second said it would be within the next year, the third made no guesses. The first said that she'd have more information after negotiations had been concluded, but when we talked they already had been. The second one said that the next HD channel we would receive would be UPN. Since KTVD does not provide a digital signal, I'm not sure how that's going to be possible, unless Comcast actually just takes the national UPN feed during prime time, but I don't see them getting into the business of switching sources on a daily basis. The third CSR's explanation was a little better, that they were in the middle of some upgrades to be able to accommodate more channels and would get caught up when that was done. But no estimate on when that would happen.

Feel free to call a CSR at 1-800-COMCAST to ask about TNT. If nothing else, we can tally the responses.

Originally posted by mayest
Anybody notice that Fox 31 (KDVR) is back to stretching their SD material on the HD channel? This time its a full stretch instead of the partial stretch they used to do. I didn't think it was possible, but is worse than it used to be.

I believe it started this weekend, and I just assumed that they had some intern in the control room. However, they are still doing it tonight. They don't have direct e-mail addresses on their Web site, so I just sent one using their "Contact Us" page. I hope it gets to the right person.

Anybody know Libby Weaver's e-mail address? I'll bet if she got a look at it, the stretch would be gone post-haste.


They switched back! Thank you KDVR for acting so quickly.:) Libby must have found out.:D

Originally posted by pezzulca
I have analog comcast cable which was activated for one month free for new homeowners in my neighborhood.
I hooked up my TV with QAM tuner and did an initial scan. Besides the local HD stations and music choice I noticed I was receiving movies similar to HBO and Cinamax movies. I did not watch until the end of movies to see what stations they were. I would be receiving a singal, then two hours later there would be no signal, but the same station would be on another channel. Can anyone explain what is going on and what station exhibit this behavor. Just trying to figure it out.

Yep these are on demand. I search through 101.*, 102.*, 113.* and 114.* and usually find a few movies playing or other on demand programming. On Friday and Saturday nights there are usually alot more. The only problem is you never know when one is starting, what the movie is, or when the intended recipient will decide they don't want to watch it anymore. But its worth the price when there's nothing else on.

I live in Fort Collins where we do not yet have any HD via Comcast. The strange thing is that when I tune in the cable directly on my television I can tune in 116-6 - 116-12. Basically all of the Denver locals plus a few extras. The TV shows them as DTV-SD. But, they look much better than their analog equivalents.

Any idea how I can get my 6412 to recognize these stations ? Since they are available, you would think that it could tune them in.

I'm hoping this is the first step in finally rolling out HD to Fort Collins. I wonder if this is typically how they do their HD rollouts ?

Threads merged.

Thread merged to where? Maybe I'm missing something (very likely), but I don't see another Denver Comcast thread besides this one.

Is this the denver comcast thread? This thread has been hibernating for a long time.

Anyone have an update on TNT in HD?

Apparently this is still the only place for Denver Comcast info. The only other Denver thread is the OTA one and there's not much discussion on Comcast there.

When is ABC going to get their act together and start broadcasting in 5.1 again? The sound during the game last night was terrible.

I live in Castle Pines North and was wondering if the Comcast service offers digital quality signals for all their SD channels or are just a few offered as digital. Also, is channel 2 part of the HD package for local channels? Any input on SD or HD picture quality would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Comcast doesn't offer all channels in digital quality, only those that are in the digital tier. I'm pretty sure channel 2 is offered in HD. One of those two is, but I can never remember which is which, WB or UPN. The one that is offered is the one that DOESN'T carry Avs games ... not that that has mattered much lately.

Ch 2 (WB) is in HD on channel 656 (at least it is in Denver). Comcast HD quality is generally very good, but CBS seems to break up much more often than the other channels.

Thanks for the responses.

There's no UPN yet because KTVD isn't yet on the air with their digital setup. Rumors have been stated that they'll be going live sometime over the summer, but I'll believe it when I see it from them, as they've always stated that they're wouldn't transition until the tower was built.

But isn't the tower supposed to be done by the end of summer? :rolleyes:

For a while 649 was showing as "to be announced" so I was really hopeing for a new HD channel. Unfortunatly turns out they just added more spanish languge channels, Grrrrr :mad:

Has anybody who had HD move from Directv or Dish lately to Comcast? I'm interested in picture quality and reception. A guy at work has Directv HD and says that he has to get his locals OTA and that sometimes they don't come in (weather). Also, that the football games aren't always broadcast in HD.

Comcast seems like such a better deal but I'm wondering what the "catch" is.

I'm moving into a new house in the fall and the deals out there are numerous. Just wondering what everybody's thoughts are.

Thoughts?

Ski

Hey Ski,

I'm an OTA guy myself and don't have Comcast, so take that into account when reading my response.

My OTA channels don't fluctuate with the weather. The biggest seasonal impact to getting HD OTA seems to be leaves on trees. My neighbourhood is only a couple years old, so we don't have those huge trees with all their foliage close by. If you're in a more established neighbourhood with big ol' trees in between your antenna location and downtown, reception could be an issue for you.

The "catch" with Comcast is generally thought to be two-fold.

1) Comcast is thought to be more expensive. I haven't compared prices lately, but I know that my OTA channels will always be free.

2) Bandwidth restrictions. I know that my OTA signals won't be compressed (beyond the robbing of bandwidth for crap like "9 WeatherPlus" or KMGH's 24-hr news channel). I don't believe Comcast is compressing the local HD channels - at this point. No guarantees about the future.

That said, the arguments I've heard for Comcast include the ease of hookup (no antenna to buy for local HD), the ability to get ABC-HD (since KMGH doesn't seem to care about OTA HDTV and doesn't broadcast a strong enough signal to reach more than a fraction of the Denver area), and the fact that their national HD channels (HBO, ESPN, etc) aren't compressed as badly as both satellite companies seem to be doing currently.

If you're concerned about HD football, there's no way to get more HD football than DirecTV's Sunday Ticket. If the game isn't produced in HD, it doesn't matter whether you're getting the SD feed of the game from OTA, D*, or Comcast. It won't be HD.

What part of town are you moving to in the fall? Depending on where you're at, we can probably give you a better idea of what to expect in terms of OTA reception and Comcast HD availability.

-edit- wrong thread, sorry :/

Dr_Mal

Thanks for the response. My problem with OTA is that I'm in Castle Rock. I don't think the signals are going to make it over the ridge line (though I could be wrong.)

I used to work for DISH and it would take an act of god for me to sign up with them. Directv I love but I hate the idea of multiple antenna's for local HD. Plus, that NFL Ticket is $319 with HD. Way over the budget when I could possibly get it for free.

Ski

Way off topic - know of any could DLP's with 2 HDMI's?

I live in Arvada, around 68th and Simms. I have Comcast broadband and some of the promo flyers sound pretty competitive price-wise. Plus the DVR deal is stellar compared to what I can "buy" from E*. My concern is that, from what I've read, Comcast is still delivering a significant number of channels as analog signals. That's a deal-breaker for me. Anyone know what the correct story is regarding Comcast and their analog transmissions? Also, anyone know when they will truly be digital?

Ski,

According to the reception maps compiled a couple years ago (http://bricklin.org/AVSForum/DenverDTV.htm) we have at least one person able to receive all the Denver channels (except KMGH) OTA. Of course, Comcast offers KMGH-DT along with the other locals, as long as Comcast offers HDTV service in Castle Rock - all without the need for an external antenna. Plus Comcast's price for a HD DVR can't be beat (somewhere in the neighbourhood of $10/month).

I live in Arvada, around 68th and Simms. I have Comcast broadband and some of the promo flyers sound pretty competitive price-wise. Plus the DVR deal is stellar compared to what I can "buy" from E*. My concern is that, from what I've read, Comcast is still delivering a significant number of channels as analog signals. That's a deal-breaker for me. Anyone know what the correct story is regarding Comcast and their analog transmissions? Also, anyone know when they will truly be digital?

All channels up the 100 are analog still except the locals 2 through 31. Of cource they are in HD too. From what has been said Comcast will be full digital by the 1st of the year. Who knows for sure.

On June 10, 2005 at 7:15 Pm, KCNC-DT's OTA signal failed. THe nature of the failure is that there are
vertical lines exactly two pixels wide over the entire picture. There are many variables
which affect how severe the problem is, I'll give more details upon request,
but basically, it affects all HD programs and their commercials,
and is not during SDTV progs or their commercials. The problem may or may not be apparent depending on your particular equipment.
I don't get HDTV on Comcast, so I would like to know if the signal is also bad on cable
(I live in Longmont).

I don't get HDTV on Comcast, so I would like to know if the signal is also bad on cable
(I live in Longmont).

I've followed your posts on the OTA thread, and, even though I never looked closely, I don't recall seeing the lines that you mentioned. But I couldn't verify last night since there was no HD programming on KCNC (at least after I read your post). However, I don't think I will see them because I remember reading that this required a 1920 x 1080 resolution as a minimum, and my DLP is a 720P. Is that still a requirement in order to see these lines?
Did you ever get with David Layne to come over?
Also, you say that the lines are not visible during SD programming, but in the OTA thread you said they were visible during "Young and Restless". Are soap operas in HD?

Y&R is HD.

Many people with 1080i sets also could not see any problem. So far, it seems to be isolated to roller11's specific setup. I'll check with Durvivor now that he's had his set for a while and see if he can see the problem as well.

I've followed your posts on the OTA thread, and, even though I never looked closely, I don't recall seeing the lines that you mentioned. But I couldn't verify last night since there was no HD programming on KCNC (at least after I read your post). However, I don't think I will see them because I remember reading that this required a 1920 x 1080 resolution as a minimum, and my DLP is a 720P. Is that still a requirement in order to see these lines?

The 1920x1080 requirement is for all set top boxes. If you are using
an add-in PC tuner card such as Fusionx or ATI HDTV wonder, it will show on any fixed pixel display regardless of resolution. This is due to the fact that add-in cards
typically use the PC's graphics card to store the image and send
it to the display, and they do so only at the resolution of
the graphics card, i.e. they don't have a "1080i/720p"switch in the
back like a set top box. Tomorrow I will test the
MyHD 130 on my DLP. Since it is like a STB in that it can output many formats,
I suspect that like any STB, it too will filter out the lines if connected to
a 1280x720 display. I have tested the MyHD 130 on my Dell LCD monitor
(1920x1080) and it shows the lines. My STB shows the lines on
my 1920x1080 Dell, but not on my 1280x720 DLP.
If your tuner is a STB, you won't see them on your DLP.
I don't know if an intergrated HDTV (i.e. integrated ATSC tuner) will show the lines on it's 1280x720 display, hopefully someone can test that for us.

>Did you ever get with David Layne to come over?

No. I spoke with him Friday July 15, he wouldn't give any exact date.
He fully understands how anyone can reproduce this problem.

>Also, you say that the lines are not visible during SD programming, but in the OTA >thread you said they were visible during "Young and Restless". Are soap operas i>n HD?

Generally no, but Young and Restless is in HD.

Y&R is HD.

>Many people with 1080i sets also could not see any problem.


This is incorrect. Everyone with 1920x1080 sets has reported the problem.


> So far, it seems to be isolated to roller11's specific setup.

Wrong again. "Pinballer" And Durvivor have both reported the problem.

> I'll check with Durvivor now that he's had his set for a while and see if he can see the problem as well.

You obviously have not followed this thread,
Durvivor has already reported that he sees these lines.

To the Comcast folks: sorry. This is REALLY off topic and doesn't belong here. I can't let it go unanswered, though.

This is incorrect. Everyone with 1920x1080 sets has reported the problem.
Wrong. You're the only one. markdl and I both have 1920x1080 sets and cannot see anything wrong.
Wrong again. "Pinballer" And Durvivor have both reported the problem.
"Pinballer" registered right after your post complaining about the problem and only made one post confirming what you saw. Hasn't said anything since. There are a lot of trusted people on the Denver OTA thread by now - when one of them confirms your issue, I'll start taking you seriously.

As for Durvivor, he saw some things the first night he was setting up his system. Obviously not the best time to cast a judgment on where a problem might or might not be. He hasn't looked critically at the picture since then (he's been too busy enjoying the wonderful world of HD). Besides, his set is a 1366x768, so he doesn't fall into your 1080 resolution group anyway.

You obviously have not followed this thread,
Durvivor has already reported that he sees these lines.
Ahem. I've been following the thread for years now. You're the one who just popped in spouting vitriol and wondering why nobody's listening to you or taking you seriously.

I guess this could be considered on topic if anyone watching via comcast, not through a computer card sees the picture problem.

roller11 - you said that only those with 1080p sets would see it in the OTA thread. I told you there that I definitely do not see this via my 1080i set, and I still don't.

[QUOTE=dr_mal]To the Comcast folks: sorry. This is REALLY off topic and doesn't belong here. I can't let it go unanswered, though.


>Wrong. You're the only one. markdl and I both have 1920x1080 sets and cannot >see anything wrong.

Check out "Young and the Restless".

>"Pinballer" ...... made one post confirming what you saw.

Exactly, this confirms my claim.

>when one of them confirms your issue, I'll start taking you seriously.

By your own admission, Durvivor and Pinballer have verified my claim.
Their description of the problem and the timing of when it happened
exactly coincide with what I've said. What proof do you have that the
three of us are conspiring to deceive this forum, what would we stand to gain?




>As for Durvivor, he saw some things the first night he was setting up his system.

No, he didn't see "some things". He saw "lines in peoples faces" ,his
exact words. There's no "conspiracy" here, really.

> Besides, his set is a 1366x768, so he doesn't fall into your 1080 resolution >group anyway.

The lines are clearly visible when using PC add-in cards at *any* resolution.
The fact that they are also visible on a 1366x768 set (which I haven't tested)
only strengthens my claim.

I guess this could be considered on topic if anyone watching via comcast, not through a computer card sees the picture problem.

roller11 - you said that only those with 1080p sets would see it in the OTA thread. I told you there that I definitely do not see this via my 1080i set, and I still don't.

What, exactly, is your setup? Do you have an HDTV set w/integrated
ATSC tuner? STB? PC tuner card? What brand/model number is your display?
The problem is highly variable in it's intensity. For example,
I watched CSI:NY tonight, and it took me a good 10 seconds
to see the problem. Likewise Cold Case, Numbers, Raymond mute the problem.
Most HDTV show the problem clearly, Young and the Restless, CSI:Miami,
CSI, Joan of Arcadia, Still Standing, shows with more intense colors. As I've reported, look for still scenes, facial closeups.
Even a small amount of motion will obscure these lines.

Did you see the .jpg I uploaded when I first reported this?

We need to take this discussion back to the OTA thread. It's not as on on topic here as it is there.

But this thread has been so dead lately.....

Anyway, I got home too late to see any HD on KCNC tonight. I'll try again tomorrow.

Even though it's not really on topic, I was able to confirm no indication of any vertical lines on any KCNC - checked last Thursday evening during Without A Trace. Since I didn't meet any of roller11's criteria, I didn't expect to see them.

Are we ever going to see more HD on Comcast? There are other HD channels available, aren't there?

AkaStp: what kind of monitor were you using? 1080i? 1080p? 720p? LCD, Plasma, CRT?

roller's trying to identify the specific situations under which this problem is visible. None of us with 1080i CRTs can see it. I don't think roller ever posted what kind of set he has, but he thinks it's limited to fixed-pixel displays. DLP is fixed pixel, so that would tend to confirm his theory.

I've got an HR10-250 and can't see symptoms, so it's not that type of receiver. roller uses PC-based cards and sees symptoms but I think he said he sees the same things when using other STBs.

P.S. Saw a similar effect (vertical lines) quite frequently tonight during King Of Queens and According to Raymond both in HD on KCNC (4-1). Even during the (SD) commercials in among them. When the vertical lines appear they are only there for a second or two. Could be an atmospheric or weather effect as its thru antenna.
Edit: I also saw it during CSI:Miami. It seems to be most evident in areas of Red or Blue.

The lines are perfectly straight and
vertical, so they are synchronized to horizontal sync. This means they are
created in the video stream before they leave the transmitting tower.
This is obviously not some kind of local interference, atmospheric, or
wether effect.

Would you *please* call about this? 303 684 8740

Also, call KCNC at 303 861 4444, ask for Dave Layne.
He tells me I'm the only one in the universe that sees these
lines, despite repeated posts like yours from various avsforum members.

roller's trying to identify the specific situations under which this problem is visible. None of us with 1080i CRTs can see it. I don't think roller ever posted what kind of set he has, but he thinks it's limited to fixed-pixel displays. DLP is fixed pixel, so that would tend to confirm his theory.

I've got an HR10-250 and can't see symptoms, so it's not that type of receiver. roller uses PC-based cards and sees symptoms but I think he said he sees the same things when using other STBs.

I'm using a Dell 1920x1200 LCD display, a second 1280x1024 LCD display,
and a 1280x720 Samsung DLP.
For tuners, I've tried
1. Fusion 2 add-in card
2. Fusion 5 add-in card
3. HDTV wonder add-in card
4. MyHD 130 add-in card
5. Samsung T-351 STB

All of the above tuners show the lines if driving the Dell 1920x1200 assuming
I set the output of the STB and MyHD to 1920x1080.

If driving the 1280x1024 or DLP, I don't see the lines with the STB or MyHD 130.
I believe this is because the 3:2 downscaling is filtering out the
lines. With add-in cards, I see the lines on all displays. That's because
there is no adjustment on the output, no '1080i/720' switch on 1,2,3
above. The MyHD 130 acts just like the STB cause it does
have adjustable output like the STB.
You will never see the lines on any CRT because the analog nature
of a CRT filters out the lines.



Jeff

Could you describe to me the visual effect that you have been seeing on KCNC that you want me to complain about so I can try to determine if I'm seeing the same thing? Are you seeing it via OTA using antenna (if so which one and where are you located). Also, what is your TV and OTA receiver make/model?
Have you been able to record what you've seen?
Btw, what does this have to do with Comcast? I posted my response in the Comcast thread because I saw the vertical effect mentioned here but as I'm seeing it via OTA it probably belongs in the Denver OTA thread rather than here.

Again, this would be much easier if you would call me.
My name is Jeff, 303 684 8740. I'm here most of the time,
call between 9 AM and 10 PM, leave a message if
I happen to be out.

Could you describe to me the visual effect that you have been seeing on KCNC that you want me to complain about so I can try to determine if I'm seeing the same thing? Are you seeing it via OTA using antenna (if so which one and where are you located). Also, what is your TV and OTA receiver make/model?
Have you been able to record what you've seen?
Btw, what does this have to do with Comcast? I posted my response in the Comcast thread because I saw the vertical effect mentioned here but as I'm seeing it via OTA it probably belongs in the Denver OTA thread rather than here.

Based on your post I am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN we are seeing the
same thing.
I wanted to know if the comcast folks are seeing this too, or
just us OTA. I live in Longmont, but that's irrelevent since
this is not a reception problem or interference problem. I get the
same signal everyone else gets, and the signal is plenty strong.

I'll try to explain what I'm seeing, here are the highlights:
The effect is vertical lines all over the screen, in every scene,
in all HDTV progs and their commercials. That said, there are
dependencies as follows:
1. Most important, it must be a still or near still scene,
like actors in a dialog scene. A small amount of motion
obscures the effect, so you won't see the lines during panning.

2. It is in most colors, but most noticable in reds, that's why people
are refering to it as the "lines in faces" problem. But it shows
up in all colors except whites and dark areas of the screen.

3. The vertical lines are exactly two pixels wide.

4. There is no trace of this problem on any other channel, and happens
only in HDTV, never in SDTV shows.

5. Though present in all HDTV shows, it is most noticeable in shows with
vibrant colors, like CSI: Miami, Joan of Arcadia, Still standing.
It is most difficult to spot in Coldcase and Numbers, you must look closely.
But in all other shows, the problem leaps out at you in some scenes,
barely visible in others.

This failure of the KCNC signal happened at exactly 7:15 PM and 5 seconds
on June 10, 2005. I was recording "Joan of Arcadia", and knew nothing of this
until June 13 which is the first time I watched HDTV after that failure.
I replayed 'Joan' on that day,, and noticed the lines. At first, I assumed
it was a failure of my equpiment. I have two completely independent setups,
both with Fusion 2 HDTV cards. So naturally I checked my other computer
to see if the problem was there also, it was. That is absolute proof that
the failure is with the KCNC signal, not with my equipment. These two computers
have nothing in common except the signal from KCNC's tower, they don't even
share an antenna.

This is way too difficult to discuss this way PLEASE call me at
303 684 8740, and then call Dave Layne at KCNC. He claims I'm
"the only one in the universe" who sees these lines.
The main number is 303 861 4444. Ask for Dave Layne, you'll probably
get his machine so leave a message explaining what you are seeing,
it is unlikely he will call you back, so tell him what you are seeing
in your message.

Jeff

I'll try and spend a little more time watching KCNC via OTA.Here's what I vaguely remember...
Last night during CSI:Miami (which I rarely watch but it just happened to be on) there was a scene in which David Caruso was speaking to a woman (a co-worker) in an office. When the woman was in the scene there were some mid-to-light blue curtains behind her on the right side of the screen. The vertical lines came and went in it. I rewound my Tivo and replayed the scene in slow motion. You could see those vertical lines appear and disappear and then reappear and disappear again a few times during that scene.
During King of Queens there was a scene of a neighbor's garage sale with Lou Ferigno in it. I think he was wearing a mid-to-light blue or red shirt and the vertical lines came and went in it a few times during that scene.
During Raymond there was a scene in which he had a red shirt on and the vertical lines came and went a few times during that scene.
I also noticed the same effect in a SD commercial during Raymond.
There were quite a few similar occurrences and in each case the vertical lines would only appear for a second or two and were a few seconds or a few minutes apart depending on scene content. The vertical lines were thin and closely spaced, probably only a few pixels wide, and kind of like a very fine corduroy material texture.
To be honest, I haven't really spent much time investigating this problem as it didn't really bother me much. I just happened to notice it and it rang a bell in my mind about something I read in this or the OTA thread so I thought I'd mention it. But I certainly don't want to enter into arguments with, or be "beaten up" by, other forum members for seeing and reporting this effect (I also see SDE on RP-LCD TVs and rainbows on DLP TVs and my vision is 20/15).
If I can get some program material on Tivo that reliably shows the effect I would be willing to let someone from KCNC take a look at it if they were willing to come to my house (I'm in Lafayette).
Fwiw, my OTA signal strenght for KCNC (4-1) is ~65%
We can probably get this moved to the OTA thread if it would be more appropriate.


The "comes and goes" comment is EXACTLY what I'm seeing. As
soon as the camera pans, the problem 'goes', it is there 100% of
the time, but the motion obscures the lines.

Don't worry about guys "beating you up" over this. Unfortunately,
there is at least one person like Dr_Mal in every forum, can't keep them out.

HUH?? What do you mean
"If I can get some program material on Tivo that reliably shows the effect"???
By your post, you report that you have exactly that already. You have stated that
you have the effect on your Tivo, during Raymond, King of Queens,
CSI: Miami... what are you waiting for?

And why is this more appropriate in the OTA forum given that
it is in the video stream, created before it is transmitted?
Just as likely that it will be on cable as OTA.

Jeff

I don't have those programs recorded on Tivo so can't show them to anyone.

So what? Even if you had them on your Tivo, you couldn't show them to
Dave Layne at KCNC. You don't need recordings to make a phone call.

I watched them but did not record & keep them. Unfortunately there was nothing in HD worth watching on KCNC tonight. Maybe I'll get something tomorrow or later in the week. I doubt that the folks at KCNC are waiting by the phone for someone else to contact them about this. ;)

That is EXACTLY what they are doing...they are waiting for someone besides me
to tell them they have a problem. Until they hear from you, they will do nothing.
But if someone verifies my report, they can no longer be in denial over this,
and they'll have to fix it.

Do you have a HD Tivo?

Yes, my computer.

As for whether this problem also applies to Comcast I have no way of knowing as I no longer have Comcast. Has anyone here confirmed the sighting of this problem on Comcast? Or OTA?

Yes, three people have reported it, you're the fourth. All four people
describe the problem symptoms in presicely the same way, that's how I
know you are seeing "the problem". Others, like Dr_mal, have verified the
fact that certain displays, like CRT's are filtering out the problem cause they don't
see it.


I'll help out as best I can.

That's all I'm asking you to do. You don't need to see it 50 times to know that yes, there really is a problem. If you want to help out, then make the call, and make it today. You aren't helping by putting it off for no reason.

Jeff

I'll call when I have a chance this week.

If/when you call, be prepared to leave a message, and in that message describe exactly what you saw, so compose your message before you call. When Dave hears your message, he will immediately
know that it is the same problem I've been describing, and he may want to call you back, so leave your call back number at the same time you state your name.
Main KCNC number is 303 861 4444

Jeff

Ok, I called Dave and left a detailed message this morning describing the problem. I also left my name and number should he want to call back for more information.

Great. Now the only question is whether or not he replays your message.
If he actually listens to it, he will know there really is something to this.

In your message , did you mention anything about posting to avsforum ?

Regards,
Jeff

IAs for whether this problem also applies to Comcast I have no way of knowing as I no longer have Comcast. Has anyone here confirmed the sighting of this problem on Comcast? Or OTA?

I tried looking a little on Monday night, but didn't see anything. Again, with a 720p TV, I'm not sure I'll see it, but I know I didn't spend as much time looking closely as is probably necessary. Given that you can record it, I may just try to record something tonight (although CSI is often pretty dark).

As far as this being on the Comcast thread, it doesn't really bother me (although I'm obviously not an administrator), since there's nothing else going on here. Regardless, I must agree with some of the earlier posts about your comments about KCNC. If you're the only one complaining about it, they really aren't obligated to spend a significant amount of time and effort to go and fix a problem. If that were the case, the OTA thread would have nothing to talk about and no one would be bashing KMGH for not delivering a signal past their parking lot.

I tried looking a little on Monday night, but didn't see anything. Again, with a 720p TV, I'm not sure I'll see it, but I know I didn't spend as much time looking closely as is probably necessary. Given that you can record it, I may just try to record something tonight (although CSI is often pretty dark).



Anyone with a 720p non-CRT display will see it if and only if their tuner is
an add-in card that does not have adjustable output formats. For instance,
Fusionxxx, ATI's HDTV wonder. The MyHD xxx will show it if you set the output
to 1920x1080, will not show if set to 1280x720. Again, I'm talking about
a 1280x720 display. This proves that *all* tuners/STB's are tuning these lines,
but they may be filtered out by the display. Dave Layne is saying they
aren't seeing this. Of course they are using a 1280x720 display and a
STB set to 1280x720. Kinda like using a black and white TV to debug
a problem with the color signal and saying "see, nothing wrong with our color".



If you're the only one complaining about it, they really aren't obligated to spend a significant amount of time and effort to go and fix a problem.

Yes, and I could understand their attitude IF they had no way of reproducing
the problem, but that's not the case. They know they have a problem, they know
it affects everyone who uses any type of display capable of fully resolving
their signal (except a CRT) they know how to reproduce the problem.
Any engineer worth a damn would not tolerate broadcasting a defective signal.
Now, AKaStp and I have both advised KCNC that they have a problem and they
still refuse to make any attempt to even investigate, other than observing
it on a 1280x720 display.
Don't you find it odd that an operations manager of a major station would
deliberately "sweep a problem under the rug"?


If that were the case, the OTA thread would have nothing to talk about and no one would be bashing KMGH for not delivering a signal past their parking lot.

KMGH's signal is what it is, it isn't "broken". Remember, KCNC's
signal was perfect up until June 10, 2005, 7:15 and 5 seconds.
The fact that some people have low resolution
monitors that can't resolve these two pixel wide lines should not be
an excuse for brodcasting a defective signal.

The "this isn't the right place for this thread" comments are completely invalid
because this is *not* an OTA problem. It's a KCNC problem that is just as
likely to show up on cable as OTA.

Jeff

Huh? No PC, no add-in card here. I'm seeing it on a 1280x720 display (a Samsung 50" 720p DLP TV) and a STB set (D* HDTivo) to 1280x720. So, surely the folks at KCNC should be able to see it on a 1280x720 display and a
STB set to 1280x720.

P.S. I have not received any call backs from anyone at KCNC in response to my detailed message yesterday.

What is a 'D*HDTivo' ? Is that the one that only works with DirectTV?
Do you have an OTA adaptor so it also records/displays OTA?


TRy this...look on the back and see if there is a 1080i/720p switch.
Test again in both positions.
CSI:Miami/CSI: are very good test progs. Better yet, check out
"Young and the Restless" 11 AM - noon. The lines almost jump
out, depending on the scene.


Not at all surprised Dave hasn't called back. He has made, to date,
5 seperate promises to me regarding this issue, and broken
everyone of them. He also said he would have the guy who has supposedly
conducted tests call me. No call, another false promise. He clearly
knows this problem is real, and has zero interest in fixing it.
You did leave a message on Dave Laynes machine, right?

Jeff

I'm just now watching CSI (Las Vegas) on KCNC 4-1 via OTA. Tonight the vertical lines are very obvious and plentiful. They are quite a bit more noticeable because they are quite a bit wider than before and very evident in red and blue areas.
But nothing on my Samsung 61" DLP via Comcast. I spent a lot of time watching tonight, and didn't spot anything. So while it may be KCNC's signal, it's interesting that only certain combinations of displays and STB's will pass the lines. Up until 5:41 pm tonight, roller11 had stated that this would not be visible on a 720p TV when being fed a 720p signal. But akastp has shown that it IS possible to see the lines under those conditions. And even though there's a good chance that Comcast's processing (if there is any) is filtering out these lines, I'm not seeing it with my Motorola 6412 set to 1080i, using the same type of TV.

I understand your annoyance at what you see as KCNC's lack of effort to troubleshoot this problem, but unless you know the exact step's they've taken, I'm not sure it's your place to criticize so harshly. You obviously know some of the steps Of course they are using a 1280x720 display and a STB set to 1280x720. Kinda like using a black and white TV to debug a problem with the color signal and saying "see, nothing wrong with our color" but we now know that combination DOES permit you to see the problem, at least in some cases. I know you don't like hearing this, but if you ease up on the criticism a little and just keep providing data, you're more likely to get what you want sooner than later.

Finally, there is a selection under KCNC's comments page http://cbs4denver.com/contact for HTDV/signal problems. That would probably be an efficient way of getting your information across, even if you don't get a confirmation email back.

A D*HDTivo is a HD-capable Tivo for DirectTV. It also has an ATSC tuner so you can hook up an antenna for OTA reception and those HD locals are aggregated into the DirecTV guide. So, I get HD OTA via my DirecTV HD Tivo receiver.

Do you have a 1080i/720P switch in the back of your Tivo?


Yes, I did ask for David Layne and I did leave a detailed message in his voice mail. Why don't you get his email address (or that of engineering) at KCNC and email him the info.


I have sent Dave many Emails, some of which have screen shots attached that
clearly show the problem. His email is dlayne@cbs.com
Perhaps you could Email him as well. Also, Pat Brus email is
pbrus@cbs.com He's the head of the engineering dept and reports
to Dave. His direct number is 303 830 6491. If you get someone else,
don't tell them what you want. They are trained to tell any caller that
the problem is some sort of interference, nothing wrong with their signal.
Polly want a cracker?


As they also appeared in SD commercials they are not limited to HD material.


Exactly. The same commercial in, say, Letterman which is SDTV will not
show the lines, even though both HD and SD have the same upconverted
commercials. That tells me that the lines are being created somewhere in
the compositing of the video stream.


I also Tivoed CSI from DirectTV (in SD) and saw no vertical lines. I even switched back and forth between the two. I'll take a look at the CBSW (CBS West from LA) HD feed on DirecTV later tonight.


Please report your findings.


Folks, there is definitely a problem with KCNC-DT (4-1) via OTA.


Really? Dave Layne told me in a phone conversation on Mon, July 25 that
there is "absolutely nothing wrong with our signal". There is
"no one in the universe that is seeing these lines".


I'm also posting in the Denver OTA thread. I've also sent a message describing the problem to KCNC using the following page on their web site: http://cbs4denver.com/contact

Thanks for that. I've had phone conversations, sent emails, but
never gone to that website address.

Nice job, AkaStp :)

Are you perhaps confusing me with roller? I'm NOT annoyed and I'm NOT criticizing (harshly or otherwise) KCNC's handling of anything. I'm just reporting when I saw it and what it looked like. I've called Dave Layne at KCNC and (very politely) explained the problem. Plus, I've provided feedback (very politely) via their web site. To be honest, I'm beginning to regret getting involved in this matter.

Don't let gakon bully you. The whole idea of these forums is to correct
gross problems like this one you are reporting on. Nothing wrong with
reporting exactly what you have seen.

roller11 had stated that this would not be visible on a 720p TV when being fed a 720p signal. But akastp has shown that it IS possible to see the lines under those conditions. And even though there's a good chance that Comcast's processing (if there is any) is filtering out these lines, I'm not seeing it with my Motorola 6412 set to 1080i, using the same type of TV.

This is to be expected. Like you, I have a STB that does not
show these lines on my 61" DLP with output set to 1080i or
720P. Also, no lines on my 1280x1024 LCD monitor.
But they are quite obvious using the same STB sent to my
1920x1200 LCD monitor. This is perfectly consistent with Pat Brus reporting
that his STB doesn't show the lines on his 1280x720 monitor.


but if you ease up on the criticism a little and just keep providing data, you're more likely to get what you want sooner than later.



LOL!! Do you seriously think that anyone at KCNC is seeing this criticism,
reading these posts?? I know first hand that they are not, they think
that nobody is being critical at all.

I watched CSI again in HD on CBSW (CBS West Coast feed from LA) on DirectTV and there were none of these vertical lines anywhere during it. Its only on KCNC-DT via OTA (4-1) for me.

This is valuble info, it proves this is a KCNC problem, not a
CBS problem. Thanks for the report.

Update: After I described the vertical lines problem using the form on the KCNC web site, I got the following response this morning....

"We're interested in evaluating this abnormality and will assign a technician to it next week. You will receive another e-mail with specific questions about your equipment, etc., from one of our technicians next week.

Thanks for e-mailing us and for your assistance in helping us address this problem.

Dave Layne
Director - Broadcast Operations & Engineering
KCNC-TV"

This is both good and bad. The good is that he actually read your message, so
he can no longer claim that "nobody in the universe is seeing these lines."

The bad is that for the past 5 weeks, he has personally promised that he will
send a technician out to my house "next week". Also, it is worth noting that
he will not allow anybody call you. If he really wanted to solve this problem,
he would have somebody call you since this is way too complicated for
email. And that call would come TODAY, not "next week".
His response implies he is still just giving this problem lip service.

Be prepared for the following:
1. When you tell them that you have a 1280x720 display, they will say that
the fault is in your equipment. They have already observed their signal on
a display like yours and found no lines. I believe that your Tivo is like
a PC add-in card in that it doesn't have adjustable outputs, so it outputs
an unfiltered image at the native res of the signal, 1920x1080.
That's why you are seeing this problem, and I see it on my 1280x720 DLP
if using my computer, but don't see it with my STB.

2. They will start off by asking you where you live, implying that it is some kind 'interference' problem.
This is absurd since this problem is perfectly straight vertcal lines.
This proves it is synchronous with the horizonal sync signal, so NOT interference,
or some "atmospheric condition". They take advantage of the fact that most people have no technical knowedge of video, so they can tell them anything without fear of contradiction.


Thanks for the update, good job. :)

My D*HDTivo has the ability to output the signal at 1080i or 720p to my (720p) TV. I have it set to 720p.

I would have expected as much since most stand alone units are designed that
way. Of course this means that the problem is even more pervasive than we thought.

People in this forum who's equipment is incapable of fully resolving a 1920x1080
signal (i.e. don't see the lines) think it's silly that we are discussing this.
After all, it doesn't affect them. But, how many of these
people will want to upgrade to a 1920x1080 display when they become
affordable? When they do, they will find out just how grotesque these lines are
and it will be a big deal then, much bigger than the Lookout Mountain debacle.

Not sure what you are getting at with your comment about not seeing the lines unless your display is capable of fully resolving a 1920x1080 signal.


One is not *guaranteed* of seeing these lines unless possessing a 1920x1080 display. If less than 1920x1080, you may or may not see them. My STB does not
show them on my DLP set, my 3 add-in computer cards do. My MyHD 130 card
shows the lines if set to 1920x1080, does not if set to 1280x720 on my DLP.
So apparently your HD Tivo is like my 3 add-in cards in that regard. One thing for sure...all tuners/STB/
add-in cards are tuning in these lines, that is the one absolute here. That,
and all 1920x1080 displays will show the lines (non-CRT)


My DLP is only a 1280x720 and so is presumably not capable of fully resolving a 1920x1080 signal and instead downrezzes to 720p if not already done in the HD receiver (which outputs 1280x720 in my case).


Right, your HD Tivo is acting just like my 3 add-in cards, so I'm not surprised you
see them.


Fwiw, I responded to Dave Layne that I still have last night's CSI on my HDTivo and he responded by asking me to hang on to it in the hope that he can get someone out to my house next week to take a look at it.


Can't hurt to keep CSI, but remember, these lines show up
on *every* HD prog. every night of the week. So it isn't like you will
have nothing to show if you erase. You can record 2-4 hours of
"lines" every single day. Of course it will help to have "worst case"
recordings to get their attention. Maybe CSI fits the bill, but
tape "Young and the Restless" if you need something stronger.
Above all, don't give them the impression that all progs are super
bad. That could backfire, see below.

I sincerely hope Dave sends someone out there, I really do.
I think the reason he renigged on his offer to me is because he knew
that I was too technically savy to be intimidated.
For example, when they say "what you are seeing
is due to local interference", I would cut them down at the knees.
You aren't technically knowledgeable, so you couldn't dispute any BS
they fed you.
All I'm saying, be prepared mentally for their visit. Their mindset is that their signal
is OK, they are there to convince you of that. That's why they are coming.
So you need to anticipate their invalid arguments in advance, like the
"local interference" myth.

It occured to me that I may be partly to blame for their belief that
there are no lines in their signal. See, at the very beginning, I emailed
attachments of screen shots of the worst case examples. Based on this one particular
pic, one would think that if the problem existed, you could see
it at a casual glance from a quarter mile away. So Pat Brus goes home and looks
at CSI expecting to see the same thing. He takes a quick glance, no lines.
It was just a matter of looking at the wrong thing. Of course I'm speculating, but
it's possible that's what happened.



Btw, I still think this discussion should be moved to the OTA thread. Has anyone actually seen this problem via Comcast or is it just via OTA? Is anyone here an administrator that can do this?

Why is it more appropriate in OTA?

Uh, I think you are way off in that assessment. You don't know me, just as I don't know you.


Very true. I was basing my comment on something I thought you said early on,
perhaps it was somebody else.


I know a lot more than I'm letting on. Its not always best to show how technically knowlegeable you really are. Sometimes its best to play down your actual level of knowledge. Sometimes you can go further and learn more and get better results by acting semi-dumb. For example, I know a lot about HDTVs but I act semi-dumb when I go to places like BB and CC to check them out and I resist the temptation to impart my vast knowledge on the sales guys until it becomes absolutely necessary.


LOL!! Man, I couldn't agree more, I do exactly the same thing.


I also act like a typical customer when I'm talking to DirecTV, Comcast, etc. They all need to feel they have the upper hand and you can get more if you let them believe that until its time to move in for the kill.


(snicker, snicker :)


Its not always best to intimidate the other party with your technical knowledge, until there is a real need to do so. Anyway, there is little or no chance that the KCNC guys will be able to intimidate me or talk above my level of technical knowledge.

After reading your posts, I am convinced you have a lot of
knowledge, you just use it with a lot more restrait than me.
But I hope you understand where I'm coming from. I've talked to
Tom Corwin, to Paul, to Pat Brus, to Dave Layne. They can be
VERY intimidating, very arrogant, very condescending.
Especially Dave. For example, when he pulled out the
"local interference" argument, I immediately cut himoff
by telling him that no, these lines are vertical and fixed, so
they are synchronous with the horizontal sync signal which makes
"interference" impossible. Know what he said? "Yeah, but
it could be harmonics associated with H sync."!!
LOL!! This is a *digital* signal, digital signal don't have harmonics!

Just pre think of your own reasons why it is technically impossible
for this to be a fault of your equipment, because that's where they
will lay the blame.

Unfortunately, I will be out of town from Aug. 2 to Aug 17 so if they do
fix their signal, I won't know about it. I will however post to the forum
and of course you will keep everybody posted.

Again, good job..no great job :)

Are you perhaps confusing me with roller?

No. I quoted you, but also responded to roller within the same post without properly indicating it (since you two are virtually the only ones posting on this thread). No bullying intended.

I received an email back from David Layne similar to the one you received. It was not a canned response, as it specifically mentioned some of the information I included in my email.

Roller: So do you have any theories about what's causing this? It would be nice if any non-Samsung DLP owners watching Comcast would provide some input about whether they see the lines or not. The Sammy HLP/Motorola 6412 combination doesn't pass those lines, but could another combination? I think there are 2 other Motorola boxes that Comcast uses for HD signals - the 5100 and 6200, although the former may have been totally replaced by now.

I received an email back from David Layne similar to the one you received. It was not a canned response, as it specifically mentioned some of the information I included in my email.

Are you saying you emailed Dave about this problem? I don't get it, you aren't seeing these lines.
What was the gist of your email to Dave?


Roller: So do you have any theories about what's causing this?

Yes, based on observing the fleeting nature of these lines.
Pixels on a scan line are created (encoded) on
a clock edge (pixel clock) which is synchronous with the horizontal sync signal. Some
foreign 'culprit' is being introduced into the pixel stream that is, of course, synced to H sync,
BUT, not necessarily in phase with the pixel clock. The only time you will
see a line is when this 'culprit' is in phase with the pixel clock. Panning and
motion will cause this phase relationship to
change instantaneously. So normally, no lines because the clock edge isn't registering
the 'culprit' due to out of phase. But, if the scene shifts by even
a fraction of a pixel period, the 'culprit' will go from barely
out of phase to in phase and be registered on the clock edge. If in phase, the 'culprit' will be
processed (algebraically summed) along with the pixel value and a 'bad' pixel will result. The
visual effect is that the lines will suddenly lock in and stay visible until
a tiny bit of motion obliterates them. This explains the fleeting nature,
and why sometimes even in totally still scenes you don't see the lines.
In that case, the scene happened to stop at a point that is out of phase with
pixel clock. It also explains
why some colors show more than others. Depending on the value of the 'culprit',
it may have a great effect on the pixel, or virtually no effect.


It would be nice if any non-Samsung DLP owners watching Comcast would provide some input about whether they see the lines or not.

I have observed on a Dell LCD 1920x1200, a Sony LCD 1280x1024, Apple LCD 1920x1200, and my Sammy DLP 1280x720.
Seeing that the lines are obvious with all six tuners I've used on both the 1920x1200
displays leads me to one inescapable conclusion: *every* tuner be it Motorola, Samsung, LG,
Fusion add-in card, ATI add-in card, MyHD 130/ every STB, etc. is decoding these lines.
The lines, once decoded, may or may not be visible. If not visible, it's because of the filtering
effect of the downscaling. It's similar to the technique known as "bilinear filtering"
that is used in 3D graphics cards. Adjacent pixel values are averaged to get the final
pixel value.

The list of people affected by this is as follows:
1. all 1920x1080 non-CRT people.
2. all add-in PC card people (except MyHD 130 cause it has it's own frame buffer),
non-CRT
3. others may or may not be affected, but generally the sub-1920x1200
with STB's don't seem to have the problem. AkaStp and Durvivor are
exceptions, they both have sub 1920x1080 displays.

Point is, this list implies that a sizable majority of viewers aren't affected.
But, what about when the highly desired 1920x1080 displays become
affordable? You will hear a LOT of complaining when that happens,
and people will stop saying "so what, who cares?"

A little more information (remember I have a 720p DLP TV)...
When I played back CSI from my DirecTV HDTivo set to 720p I see the vertical lines.
When I played back CSI from my DirecTV HDTivo set to 1080i I do NOT see the vertical lines.
If you have a Comcast HD receiver set to output at 1080i and you do not see the vertical lines then setting it to 720p might reveal the vertical lines.

The more I think about it, the more I think the problem is that the
KCNC people aren't observing in the right way. Dave and Pat Brus both
know that only a 1920x1080 display is guaranteed to reveal these lines.
So let's assume that's what they used. How to explain Dave's statement
"we aren't seeing the lines"? Perhaps it's because in their minds,
the lines are extremely obvious on every square inch of the display
100% of the time. So, that's what they are looking for. If they don't see
that, they assume it isn't there. Since they don't see the lines everyewhere
immediately, they stop looking and turn it off.
If this is the case, it means this will never be resolved unless a KCNC rep
actually stands side by side AkaStp or myself all parties looking at the
screen together so that the lines can be pointed out.

Since Dave's position is that there is nothing wrong with their signal,
my next move will be to try to communicate with the station manager,
Dave's boss. Instead of asking him to observe the problem and fix it, I'll propose
that I show him the problem in person. I can bring my Dell display and computer,
STB down to the station, along with an antenna and show him the lines
when "Young and the Restless" airs. Of course he can still claim there's
something wrong with my equipment, but he will have seen for himself exactly
how to recreate the problem, and how to observe it. Then, he can duplicate the
problem and they will finally know that their signal really is broken.

I know you are assuming that Dave really will send someone to your location
and you will get your chance. Keep in mind, he promised me the same thing on five seperate occasions and broke every promise. I seriously doubt that
he will show up, but if he does, be perpared. remember, their only reason for
showing up is to try to figure out why you are seeing lines that aren't there.
They feel it is inconceivable that as much as they analyze and monitor
their own signal, it is absolutely impossible that there could be a hideous defect
and they can't see it. If they do show up, then your job is to show them
the fleeting nature, so they know what to look for. Of course if they choose
to observe with a sub-1920x1200 display, or a CRT based set, then they may well
not see the lines. Above all, emphasize that they must observe on a 1920x1200
fixed pixel display (i.e. direct view LCD) such as a carefully selected computer monitor , and,
observe during still scenes, like dialog. That's what makes "Young and the Restless" the perfect prog to test with. It has more examples of
the lines than any other prog since it tends not to have so much motion.

It is unnecessary to show them your CSI clip in the sense that there
is nothing special about it. However, there is one special clip that
I possess that nobody else has. It's the "Joan of Arcadia" prog that aired
June 10, 7 -8 PM. It have caught on tape the exact instant of the failure
the exact four frames when the signal went from perfect to messed up .
That stays on my hard drive, I will never erase it.

So, it is possible that people with the (wobbulated) Samsung HLPxx63, DLPxx67, or HLRxx67 will NOT see it whereas someone with a Samsung HLM, HLN, HLPxx74, HLPxx85 or HLRxx77 is more likely to see it as these sets have the (non-wobbulated) HD2 or HD2+ chips. Similarly, some Mitsubishi and Toshiba and Panasonic DLPs. People with RP-LCDs should probably be able to see it also.

Good thinking, you could be on to something there. Are the new Samsung DLP
that are 1920x1080 (available now) the wobbulated variety?

I would expect that the LCD rear projection sets will act
just like a direct view LCD.

Do you agree that quite likely KCNC will need to be shown this problem
'in person' by someone who can point it out?

A little more information (remember I have a 720p DLP TV)...
If you have a Comcast HD receiver set to output at 1080i and you do not see the vertical lines then setting it to 720p might reveal the vertical lines.
I will try this when I get a chance. Usually I'm not on the forum more than once a day, and it's a little too late tonight to check out any HD on KCNC. My DLP is also an HD2 (1:1 pixel).

Are you saying you emailed Dave about this problem? I don't get it, you aren't seeing these lines.
What was the gist of your email to Dave?
That even though I wasn't seeing the problem on my TV I would be interested in some of the details if they ever determined what it was. Based on your more recent emails, I suspect that you are interested in the details and would post them if he provided them. The latest 1080p DLP's are wobulated.

I will try this when I get a chance. Usually I'm not on the forum more than once a day, and it's a little too late tonight to check out any HD on KCNC. My DLP is also an HD2 (1:1 pixel).


That even though I wasn't seeing the problem on my TV I would be interested in some of the details if they ever determined what it was. Based on your more recent emails, I suspect that you are interested in the details and would post them if he provided them. The latest 1080p DLP's are wobulated.

The important thing is that *everyone* is tuning in these lines, regardless
of tuner. The only thing stopping some people from seeing these lines is
their particular displays. Change just one thing: your display, your monitor, your TV set, your STB...you may well see these lines that have been there all
along. Upgrade to a 1920x1080 display? You'll find out how ugly these lines are.

We still don't know if Comcast cable has these lines or not, we need to observe
comcast on a 1920x10800 display.
If no lines on Comcast, I don't think it's a matter of
"filtering them out" since they broadcast the full 1920x1080 uncompressed
image. It would be because these lines are introduced into the video
stream after the video goes to Comcast on their fiberoptic feed, but before the video goes to the transmitting tower.

As to whether or not Sammy's wobbulated 1920x1080 display will have these
lines, my guess is that they will. As I understand it, these "2:1" (pixels:mirrors)
sets works as follows...there are 1920/2 (960) mirrors that are time multiplexed.
They are each used once to create the first 960 pixels on a scan line, then
reused to create the second 960 pixels. This doesn't sound like filtering, so
I'd be surprised if they mask the lines.

The important thing is that *everyone* is tuning in these lines, regardless of tuner. The only thing stopping some people from seeing these lines is their particular displays. We still don't know if Comcast cable has these lines or not, we need to observe comcast on a 1920x10800 display.

But if I have the same display as you and akastp, why am I not seeing it? I switched my Motorola 6412 to 720p output (per akastp's suggestion) and saw no vertical lines during either Cold Case or Sam I Am tonight. I'm afraid I don't have many other options to troubleshoot it on this end, as I'm not planning to upgrade my DLP for a while. My iMac doesn't display a full 1920x1080, although I could try hooking it up to the Motorola via firewire to see. I won't get to it for a couple of days, but I'll let you know.

roller and akastp - how are you connecting your tuners to your displays? You may have provided this information, but I didn't see it in a quick scan of recent posts. I am using component cables.

But if I have the same display as you and akastp, why am I not seeing it? I switched my Motorola 6412 to 720p output (per akastp's suggestion) and saw no vertical lines during either Cold Case or Sam I Am tonight.


This is a complicated issue, and I'd prefer discussing this over
the phone. Anyone can call me at 303 684 8740. I'm usually here
all day, call between 9 AM and 10 PM. I will be out of town from
about noon on Aug. 2 until Aug. 17.

There seem to be two classes of non-PC tuners: those that reveal the lines
on sub-1920x1080 displays, those that don't. We have accumulated enough
emperical data to know that these "corner cases" are unpredictable.
For example, my STB doesn't show the lines on my 61" Sammy DLP, so
it's acting like your Motorola. AkaStp and Durvivor are in the opposite
class. They have sub-1920x1080 displays that do reveal the lines with their
non-PC tuners. That's why I say that while any combo may reveal these
lines, to be certain of seeing them use either a 1920x1080 display,
or, use a PC add-in card to tune.


I'm afraid I don't have many other options to troubleshoot it on this end, as I'm not planning to upgrade my DLP for a while. My iMac doesn't display a full 1920x1080, although I could try hooking it up to the Motorola via firewire to see. I won't get to it for a couple of days, but I'll let you know.

Here's a way you can see the lines:
Get the VLC video player or the equvilent, the Moonlight Elecard mpeg player,
the moonlight is preferered.
Both are free downloads, they will play a .tp video file and show the
lines on any display. I've tested this on my DLP, I know it works.
To get a .tp file, let me know and I'll send you one that I've saved on
my hard disk. I can even send the clip that showed the exact instant,
the exact 4 frames of video when KCNC's signal broke on June 10, 7:15 PM.


roller and akastp - how are you connecting your tuners to your displays? You may have provided this information, but I didn't see it in a quick scan of recent posts. I am using component cables.

I've used all three common methods: PC VGA style, DVI, RGB component.
They work equally well.

Cold Case is a particluarly bad prog to see these lines. Both CC and Numbers
are 'washed out', so they tend not to show the lines. I tuned in
CC tonight just to look for the lines. I saw them immediately after about
10 seconds or so, but they were visible for only about 3-4 frames,
about a tenth of a second. I kept looking and finally saw them again a
few seconds later. Knowing to look in red areas, I looked at Scotty's bright
red tie and they were clearly visible. Ditto Numbers. An untrained observer would
eventually spot them, but it might take an entire program. I'm trained, so
I see them the instant they appear (again, I'n refering only to CC and Numbers).
All other progs reveal these lines readily. The best prog is "Young and the Restless" because they have many dialog scenes with still close ups of faces.
Even a blind man could see them on that prog. Since June 10, the day the signal
went bad, I no longer "watch" CBS HDTV in the normal sense because
these lines are so ugly. I monitor CBS just long enough to see
if KCNC has fixed this problem.

Jeff,

This happens on all 1080p devices, that you are feeding the KCNC 1080i signal to. Is it possible that the problem isn't being introduced by a faulty upconversion of the 1080i signal to 1080p in the display device? Or, in the case of it showing up on a few 720p monitors, in a faulty conversion of 1080i to 720p by either the STB or the display device? Can you quantitatively state that this is not a conversion artifact?

Jeff,

This happens on all 1080p devices, that you are feeding the KCNC 1080i signal to. Is it possible that the problem isn't being introduced by a faulty upconversion of the 1080i signal to 1080p in the display device?

Not only possible, virtually certain.


Or, in the case of it showing up on a few 720p monitors, in a faulty conversion of 1080i to 720p by either the STB or the display device? Can you quantitatively state that this is not a conversion artifact?

If it is a conversion artifact, it would be due to some malignancy in the signal
itself. remember, this problem did not exist before June 10, 2005
at 7:15 PM. I doubt seriously that it's a i to p conversion artifact because I see
no de-interlacing artifacts. Other than that, I have no idea what it is.
The visual nature is that the lines are exactly 2 pixels wide in straight
columns, so starting with the first pixel in each scan line, it's
two good pixels, two bad pixels, two good pixels, two bad, etc. on
every scan line. A conversion problem would tend to affect whole scan lines,
not whole pixels.
Because the problem is fleeting, I believe that the problem, whatever it
is is at the pixel level, and comes and goes because it is constantly
going in and out of phase with the pixel clock. This explains why motion
completely obliterates these lines.

Of course the more interesting question is why has KCNC decided to
not fix the problem, or at least why are they giving it very low priority.
My suspicion is that they deliberately changed something in their processing either for economic reasons, sponsor request, something like that, and this is an
unfortunate side effect. That would certainly explain their policy of denial, and
why they show no interest in even looking into this problem.

Here's a way you can see the lines:
Get the VLC video player or the equvilent, the Moonlight Elecard mpeg player,
the moonlight is preferered.
Both are free downloads, they will play a .tp video file and show the
lines on any display. I've tested this on my DLP, I know it works.
To get a .tp file, let me know and I'll send you one that I've saved on
my hard disk. I can even send the clip that showed the exact instant,
the exact 4 frames of video when KCNC's signal broke on June 10, 7:15 PM.

I think you'll need to send me the file. If it's not ridiculously large, try emailing it to me. I used VLC to record some of NCIS (.m2t file) and didn't get any lines. I'm playing back on my iMac set at 1440x900; I don't have an HDMI connector to go to my DLP.

I might have recorded the lines in that clip from NCIS. The clip includes a scene where a character is standing in front of a red background. Occasionally the red in the background changes, so that there are darker and lighter vertical lines - still red, but much different shades. Sometimes these lines appear to extend into the image below the red area. I can't say how many pixels wide they are, but the width of the lines appears to be the same as the distance between the lines, and they're pretty close together. Some reasons why I say might are:
The lines do not extend the full height of the screen. If it were truly a signal problem, I would expect the lines to cover the entire height. I won't pretend to know anything about TV signal problems, but this just seems logical.
The lines were only visible briefly, and if I didn't look at the clip frame by frame, I wouldn't have noticed it. CouchPotato's post on the OTA thread made it sound like this was much more obvious when he was watching, but it was not so in my case. If I wasn't looking for vertical lines, I would think these were compression or conversion artifacts, since it came from my 6412 to my iMac via AVCBrowser, then converted to QuickTime via mpegStreamclip, and since there are other totally different artifacts visible in the clip (when examined frame by frame). This is the first time I've ever used Streamclip, so I've got a 5 second clip that takes up 13 megabytes, and I don't know how to isolate a single frame to paste into QuickTime (something I might be able to email).

I'll try recording more tonight, if there is anything on in HD.

I didn't watch but the first 15 minutes or so(rerun). But where the lines REALLY showed up was when they whent to the apartment & the black lady let them in. She had on a red coat. One seen the whole length of the coat was shown. No lines except on the coat. They did extend out past the coat just a bit two. The lines also appeared on peoples faces now & then allso.