Why don't we all write in and tell them that WE DON'T WANT their damn weather channel! Give us unmodified network HD and we'll be happy.

Why don't we all write in and tell them that WE DON'T WANT their damn weather channel! Give us unmodified network HD and we'll be happy.

I second that motion!!

BTW What have they done this week up there?

I don't think multicasting is an issue. There are many channels multicasting w/no issues on picture quality. Ch. 2,5,7,44,56 in Boston as an example. Ch 7, WHDH is the NBC affiliate w/weather plus and the football game last night was great. Ch 13 in Portland is fine, but Ch 6 in Portland (NBC) does lose quality but are multicasting 3 channels.

So, anyone have an update on the state of the tower construction on Mansfield?

From what I've read here in the last couple of weeks, it sounds like the WCAX and WPTZ towers are done. WETK (VT Public Television) said they'd planned to put theirs up last week. Did that happen?

From my vantage point (something like 20 miles due West of Stowe) I can only make out 1 additional tower. But I think that's because the WCAX and WPTZ towers line-up one behind the other from this angle.

This is the mail i got today:


Our base tower went up last week; very exciting. The other two
towers with monopoles are up, and when I saw them, awaiting the steel to
enclose them. Our monopole, antenna, transmission line will be in place
within the next two weeks.

WCAX and WPTZ are on the same tower.

I'm assuming you were talking about the WVNY/WFFF tower being behind or in front fo the other one?

I can't wait for on-air testing!

Very exciting indeed.

After I posted the news from WPTZ last week I emailed the other 3 networks in Burlington. Peter Martin from WCAX replied back last Friday. Below is his reply.

"Thanks for your note.

We expect to be on the air with a digital signal during the first two weeks of October. Exactly when will depend on how the equipment installation and testing goes. We will test, I suspect, at full power.

We will start with a single program stream, but we anticipate a second stream being operational in November.

Yes, we will be passing through the full CBS HD programming stream.

I gather you are a Charter subscriber. So far as I know, Charter is not able to pass through the HD signal for its subscribers in Vermont and, further, has not announced plans to upgrade its Vermont systems to do so. However, you might want to be in touch with them about any plans they have.

Eventually the two satellite services, DirecTV and Dish Network, will offer the HD broadcasts of the local stations in Vermont. However, we know that they must launch additional satellites to do so. We have not been advised as to when they will carry us in HD".


As yet I have not heard from WVNY nor WFFF

I can hardly beleive that OTA HDTV is almost here. I'm moved to re-ask the question I posted to this forum some time ago... What are people using (or planning to use) to receive the HD broadcasts? Seems to me the options are:

1) HDTV w/ built-in ATSC tuner
2) Set top box w/ ATSC tuner
3) Satellite Receiver STB w/ ATSC tuner
4) HTPC w/ ATSC tuner card.

I'm leaning strongly towards (3), since I currently subscribe to DishNetwork. The ViP622 sounds like a nice rig. It's got 2 DBS tuners plus an ATSC tuner, the terrestrial programming info is integrated into the on-screen program guide, and it has a DVR system that can record both satellite and HD OTA programming.

My other choice would be to put together an HTPC with an ATSC tuner card and Linux running MythTV. I could configure it to capture and "pass-through" and/or DVR my SD satellite programming.

The appeal of going the MythTV route is that the stuff I record is portable. For stuff that I want to keep, I can edit out commercials and then burn to DVD.

Hi, can someone please shed some light on when I can expect to see some more channels in Hi-def (still waiting for WFFF, WPTZ, and WVNY). I live in Burlington and have Adelphia, I currently get WCAX and a bunch of cable channels in hi-def. Will this "first two weeks of October" business affect me at all? I've followed this forum for about three weeks now trying to figure something out but finally just decided I'd ask. Any information that anyone can offer would be great. Thanks.

Vttom; I've used 2,3 and 4. I think it comes down to several factors including sensitivity, flexibility (to record, etc) and cost. For example I owned a Sony HD300 HD satellite box and it was great; it picked up Mountain lake PBS very well (best I've had actually)..and the satellite performance was good. However no DVR functions. I own an old Sammy SIR-T150 STB thats has "OK" sensitivity (2nd best), very basic functionally and was cheap. And now I have a MYHD 120 card for a HTPC..its fairly sensitive also and I get DVR capability but the flexibility is more complex and its more expensive (and time consuming!) Mind you I had a MYHD100 card that could not get Mountain lake at all at 42 miles....Note Mountain Lake PBS is my "standard" as its the only HD OTA station I can currently receive.

So its what you need balanced with ease of operation and cost. YMMV. Good luck.

nikralm17; I would expect that when the over the air (OTA) transmissions of VT PBS, NBC, ABC and FOX start that adelphia will add those HD channels. However what cable does is always a question.

I spoke with Adelphia and they said they're ready to go, they're just waiting on the affiliates. So the OTA transmissions may start in early October then? I actually get PBS HD already as well, is this a good sign?

I spoke with Adelphia and they said they're ready to go, they're just waiting on the affiliates. So the OTA transmissions may start in early October then? I actually get PBS HD already as well, is this a good sign?

I wish there was some way to force competition into the cable industry. Right now Charter has NO plans to do HD in Vermont, so anyone stuck in their area has no choice.

I spoke to Adelphia last year about this and suggested if they come into some of these Charter areas, they could probably walk away with the business. The guy thought I was crazy to suggest they encrouch on a competitor's territory.

This is just crazy, yet no one seems to care. It's almost like being forced to stay with black & white.

Yeah I totally agree...sometimes I really think things need to be regulated its just totally not fair. Stupid charter has VT and I am sure its a cash cow for them. We havent been upgraded for anything. No HD no Phone Service nothing. I guess if I cant get any OTA HD then I will be stuck going back to dish. Its not that I really mind persay its just some people would like options. OTA will be great for me cause most of the TV I watch is primetime so I can cut back on my cable bill.

Yeah I totally agree...sometimes I really think things need to be regulated its just totally not fair. Stupid charter has VT and I am sure its a cash cow for them. We havent been upgraded for anything. No HD no Phone Service nothing. I guess if I cant get any OTA HD then I will be stuck going back to dish. Its not that I really mind persay its just some people would like options. OTA will be great for me cause most of the TV I watch is primetime so I can cut back on my cable bill.

I all fairness, Charter does have decent high-speed internet in some areas. I've had it for 2 years and in fact, they're coming today to install wireless for 2 computers and up the speed to 5 megs.

Why they won't budge on HD TV baffles me. I know for a while last year there was some talk of them getting into HD but apparently the one person that had that vision left. :(

OH and BTW, I did hear from Bill Sally at Fox44:


Sorry……looks like I didn’t reply to your email

1.) We expect to be testing the signal perhaps as early as the end of the month. Transmitter installation is next week. We expect to be broadcasting over the air, full power by the end of October.

2.) Yes…..we will be multi-casting but I don’t expect it to be until first quarter next year

3.) Yes…..everything that is broadcast by the Network in HD.

4.) Cable will be carrying it….yes. Not sure what the timetable is for the Satellite services

Regards,
Bill

Isn't it interesting that all the TV stations think multicasting is something good?

For Fox I'm not too worried, since the splicer system ensures that local stations can't modify the bitrate; they can only use whatever is remaining for subchannels. For NBC, OK, I guess I can live with their weather channel, as long as the subchannel's bitrate is kept low and that the local weather maps don't act as if there was nothing north of the border (hello, there's 4 million viewers in the Montreal area compared to the puny 300K in Burlington-Plattsburgh). As for CBS, there is no reason why they would need a subchannel, especially since it's a 1080i station and the CW is already carried tape-delayed on WFFF. I would like it if ABC wouldn't carry a subchannel, because it would be great to be able to record their OAR movies at full bitrate.

If there is a subchannel planned for WFFF, wouldn't it be nice if it would be rented out to WGMU (the low-power analog My Network affiliate)? I don't care much for their daily primetime soaps, but there is a lot of um, "interesting" syndicated programming such as Jerry, South Park, and Geraldo (that Fox 44 strangely doesn't carry), which most of us can't get because of WGMU's analog low-power status.

If there is a subchannel planned for WFFF, wouldn't it be nice if it would be rented out to WGMU (the low-power analog My Network affiliate)? I don't care much for their daily primetime soaps, but there is a lot of um, "interesting" syndicated programming such as Jerry, South Park, and Geraldo (that Fox 44 strangely doesn't carry), which most of us can't get because of WGMU's analog low-power status.

Or even better (depending on bitrates) they could air both the FOX and CW programming at the same time. That way CW wouldn't suffer from the time delay.

Probably doesn't need to be mentioned but as it looks like we might possibly see some signal activity starting soon, some of you lucky souls nearer the mountain need to start scanning every so often and keep us posted.

I remember when WNNE-DT first started testing, I was able to lock their 4 channels even though they weren't actually broadcasting anything yet. That went on for a while because they ran into encoder issues but that shouldn't happen with these channels.

Or even better (depending on bitrates) they could air both the FOX and CW programming at the same time. That way CW wouldn't suffer from the time delay.

Nah, because then the CW stuff would be totally unwatchable because of the reduced bitrate of the subchannnel.

For those who already receive Vermont PBS from other transmitters, can you describe what the logo is (if any) on the HD channel? WCFE is really bugging me with their constant (Mountain Lake PBS) logo and it would be nice to have an option to make clean PBS-HD recordings without local logos.

Nah, because then the CW stuff would be totally unwatchable because of the reduced bitrate of the subchannnel.

For those who already receive Vermont PBS from other transmitters, can you describe what the logo is (if any) on the HD channel? WCFE is really bugging me with their constant (Mountain Lake PBS) logo and it would be nice to have an option to make clean PBS-HD recordings without local logos.

I guess it's true that you can get used to something and not notice it after a while. I'm going by memory but I don't remember the VT PBS HD Logo from Mt Ascutney as being all that obtrusive. I'll have to check tonight if I think of it. As I remember it's light colored text of "PBS HD". I know there are a lot worse logos out there.

I guess it's true that you can get used to something and not notice it after a while. I'm going by memory but I don't remember the VT PBS HD Logo from Mt Ascutney as being all that obtrusive. I'll have to check tonight if I think of it. As I remember it's light colored text of "PBS HD". I know there are a lot worse logos out there.

It's gray and white. Says VPT-HD with the PBS Logo and some pic of a mountain I guess. It's not too bad since the color is so light, especially when you look at the Seattle PBS on BEV or A&EHD's.

Also, I swear the PQ on the Asctuney PBS has gone down some over time. The Boston PBS via BEV tends to look better to me. Maybe I'm just crazy.

It's gray and white. Says VPT-HD with the PBS Logo and some pic of a mountain I guess. It's not too bad since the color is so light, especially when you look at the Seattle PBS on BEV or A&EHD's.

Also, I swear the PQ on the Asctuney PBS has gone down some over time. The Boston PBS via BEV tends to look better to me. Maybe I'm just crazy.
You may be right but it's such a subjective thing it's hard to tell without a baseline. The HD PQ on Dish has dropped so much this year that when I switch to OTA and look at either VPT-HD or WNNE-DT, they both look pretty good by comparison.

Just checked no WCAX or anything up yet...just a FYI guys.

LOL. That last post reminds me of me trying to get the signal strength for WCFE-38 on a TV at work last week. When I was cycling through the channels, I stopped at channel 32 (WETK) and I gasped when I saw what I thought to be a faint signal reading. I was fooled though since that TV's tuner gives a small red line on all channels, even if there is nothing.

hahahha

FYI - I ordered the ViP622 from Dish on Friday morning. Scheduled the install for this Wednesday (could have been as early as this Monday, but I've got some other stuff going on this week).

So, come Wednesday evening, I will be able to start scanning for OTA HD channels.

BTW - I thought the deal from Dish was pretty good. Pay $199 up front and then $6/mo to lease the receiver (plus a $5.95/mo "PVR fee" [groan]). If you commit to 18 months of programming, you get $10/mo back for 10 months, which I did. I went with the HD Bronze package, which is basically the AT60 package with a dozen or so HD channels added on top. I also ordered the SD locals package, but will cancel that once they go live OTA.

FYI - I ordered the ViP622 from Dish on Friday morning. Scheduled the install for this Wednesday (could have been as early as this Monday, but I've got some other stuff going on this week).

So, come Wednesday evening, I will be able to start scanning for OTA HD channels.

BTW - I thought the deal from Dish was pretty good. Pay $199 up front and then $6/mo to lease the receiver (plus a $5.95/mo "PVR fee" [groan]). If you commit to 18 months of programming, you get $10/mo back for 10 months, which I did. I went with the HD Bronze package, which is basically the AT60 package with a dozen or so HD channels added on top. I also ordered the SD locals package, but will cancel that once they go live OTA.

You do realize that if you cancel the Dish LiLs, you'll no longer get any guide info for your OTA channels - right? Don't get me started on this one - it's one of my pet peeves about Dish.

Case and point why I have a seperate STB. I am not thrilled with Dish's policy on that.

Dish really doesn't want to support OTA anymore - especially now that so many affiliates are digital.

The reason is obvious. Dish (and DirectTv) have both made the marketing decision to lower the quality of their HD signals on most channels in order to squeeze in more channels of lesser quality.

Now (even with some multi-casting) OTA HD networks blow away satellite HD networks (HD DNS or HD LiL). That being the case, anyone with a 622 for example can watch and recored a much better HD signal OTA than what Dish provides in their locals package - so why bother to pay Dish? The trouble is, they have to find out what's on that channel from another source and then set a manual timer for it.

So by choosing to not let their receivers use the PISP data stream's EPG info that all stations are required by law to provide, Dish can control who gets epg info for OTA channels and thus make it more difficult for non-locals subscribers to see what's on those OTA channels and set timers to record them.

In my opinion it just exemplifies how Dish tries to nickel & dime their subs.

You do realize that if you cancel the Dish LiLs, you'll no longer get any guide info for your OTA channels - right?Hmm... Hadn't quite realized that subtlety. But then again, what other options are there for an OTA HD DVR? The way I figure it, the total amount that I'll pay to enable integrated OTA and Sat. HD DVR functionality (over the 18 month commitment period) is $199 - $100 + 18 x ($6 lease payment + $6 DVR fee + $5 locals pkg) = $405.

I couldn't buy an HD Tivo (which aren't even out yet) or HD-capable HTPC for that.

Hmm... Hadn't quite realized that subtlety. But then again, what other options are there for an OTA HD DVR? The way I figure it, the total amount that I'll pay to enable integrated OTA and Sat. HD DVR functionality (over the 18 month commitment period) is $199 - $100 + 18 x ($6 lease payment + $6 DVR fee + $5 locals pkg) = $405.

I couldn't buy an HD Tivo (which aren't even out yet) or HD-capable HTPC for that.

Many rationalize it the same way - which I suppose is what Dish counts on.

Another justification for paying for Vt LiLs is when Dish adds the Burlington HD LiLs, you'll automatically get them (currently at no extra charge).

Also (although probably moot at this point), if Dish happened to add the other 3 HD distant feeds before they added HD LiLs, those that qualify would be required by law to sub to the analog LiLs in order to get HD DNS.

Now that HD OTA is soon to go live, what are folks putting up for antennas? For me in Essex, VT ,Mt. Mansfield is almost due east, but NBC is over in North Pole, NY which is due west. Anybody know if they will be broadcasting from Mansfield? I hate to have to add a rotor for one station.

Many rationalize it the same way - which I suppose is what Dish counts on.

Another justification for paying for Vt LiLs is when Dish adds the Burlington HD LiLs, you'll automatically get them (currently at no extra charge).

Also (although probably moot at this point), if Dish happened to add the other 3 HD distant feeds before they added HD LiLs, those that qualify would be required by law to sub to the analog LiLs in order to get HD DNS.

My dish bill for the 180 with locals is 54.99- when i do go HD the gold hd package is 69.99 without locals- locals would cost another 5.00 bucks.

Jeff, both NBC and Fox (which are broadcasting from the NY side in analog) will be broadcasting digitally from Mt. Mansfield. You won't need to turn your antenna.

On another note, I hope the (bleep)-y weather we're having this week won't delay the transmitter and transmission line installations...

ohh comon foxfan you know it will it doesnt take much to make them delay....

Actually I think they want to get things finished as soon as possible now.

They've got all this $$$$ invested now and they need to start seeing a return on it.

I got a real nice e-mail from a lady that is Director of Programming at WVNY and Sales Coordinator for WVNY & WFFF. She said they're on track for testing starting around Oct 1st but she's saying November for being up and running. That's probably more realistic than the Oct 15 eta the others were talking about.

In any event, we're really seeing the light at the end of the tunnel for many of you getting HD (maybe I'll be lucky but I have a feeling I'm too far East), so keep your eyes open for signal activity in a couple of weeks and be sure to post here when you get something.

Some other interesting news that Sara mentioned that I haven't heard anywhere else:

"Satellite companies will have to build their own facilities at our site to be able to carry the local channels in HD over their feeds. You would have to contact DirecTV or Dish Network to find out their timeline for that".

She also said they are currently hooking up equipment that will allow them to feed Adelphia directly with HD and that the rollout of cable HD should be about the same time.

Great for Adelphia but another nail in Charter's coffin. What I see happening is all of a sudden lots of people are going to realize that HD has arrived in the North country, maybe even lots of new tvs this Christmas, only to find out that Charter and a few others have done little or nothing to prepare for it.

May be a lot of Vermont towns taking a serious look at their cable franchise contracts this year and Charter may find themselves out in the cold.

Is there any coincidence that the race for HD broadcast from Mansfield coincides with November sweeps ... or could it be the impending winter weather ;) ? I can see the promos now.... See your Thanksgiving games in HD! Show XYZ now in HD! etc. etc.

It should be intersting to see who is stocking ota receivers and HD antennas locally in the Burlington area for those of us with hd set with non integrated hd tuners. And I'm sure there are many of us! Radio shack, BestBuy and Circuit City all show no local stock for receivers(non sat integrated) in their stores when you search their online sites. It's going to be question hell at local retailers and cable companies!

The gods have finally smiled on UVM(who owns the Mountain top where the antennas are) and the wildlife for letting broadcasters finally finish something they started over 3 years ago.

I emailed Dish to put a bug up the A** inquiring as to when we could expect local HD here in this market. I got the reponse i expected " don't know when or if they ever will". At least they are quick to respond. I don't want to go back to cable.

FYI - My ViP622 was installed today. I immediately did an OTA HD scan to see if it found anything. As expected: nada. I had a glimmer of hope that I'd manage to get WCFE (I can get a very fuzzy picture from their analog broadcast on ch 57), but no dice.

vttom: I've sent u a pm. did you get it?
And for others. Has anybody here from Canada had success legaly subscribing to dishnetwork?

Is it just me or is WCFE-DT 38 currently at a lower power than usual? I used to get it from a small antenna in the attick, but now I just get a signal of 21 (not enough for a lock).

I noticed this as I was checking for any sign of life from Mansfield. :D

Foxfan, I have always had a problem with ch 38. When I scan the TV says adding digital 38, but when I go to 38 it is not there. I'm using an attic antennae as well.

Oh by the way, that is exactly what I was doing, looking for a pulse from the mountain. Soon, I hope, we waited too long.

Channel 38

Signal strength shows 87% here from an attic antenna.

So, what are people using for antennas?

I know once Manny goes live I'll probably be able to get all the channels with little more than a "bow tie" hanging from the wall. However, I would like to try to pull in WCFE-DT. Due to HOA restrictions, I'd have to put it inside the roof over the garage (the 2nd-story attic in my house is inaccessable). I like the compactness of this guy from RadioShack: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2253765

Will it do the trick, or will I need to go with something a little more "traditional", like the following: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103088

I have a SFA-UHF antenna (soon to be combined with a single-channel 13 VHF antenna I already have) at one location, and a standard large combo antenna at another.

I have a Silver Sensor on a rotor in the attic for now. WVNY at 10 kw I'm not shure I'll ever be able to get their signal.

I have a Radio Shack U75 or whatever its a UHF only.

Can anyone receive the Boston NBC HD channel in Burlington through Adelphia going through a QAM tuner instead of the cable box? A much earlier post on this thread someone talked about it being on 71.1 but when I tried it last night to get the Pats game I didn't have any luck finding it. Has it gone away?

What I'd like to know is how much correlation there is between how well one gets an analog station versus it's digital counterpart.

I realize that with digital it's kind of an all or nothing thing and not like analog where a weak signal can get a very snowy. With digital it's either a clear picture or no picture at all. Even then a weak digital signal will pixelate and "breakup".

I guess my question is if someone currently gets some signal for the Burlington analog signals OTA but they're very weak and snowy, is it likely that they will get anything from digital? That's assuming that the stations go full power, which I believe they are all planning to do.

Walt; Mansfield OTA folks need to chime in BUT for Mointain Lake PBS in NY I get a moderately snowy analog picture..and a decent 98-99% of the time locked HD signal. However I still think the sensitivity of the OTA receiver makes a significant difference.

Differences in the Analog and Digital signals will require a total
rethinking of antenna systems. Digital has some unique challenges
for us OTA viewers, Digital does NOT handle multipath (reflections)
very well. You can have relatively strong signal but if there are any significant
reflections from a building or mountain you will have severe pixelization
of your picture, where in the analog world you may have some minor ghosting.
Lesson here is signal quality is more important than signal strength.So It's important
to have a large directional antenna than to have a smaller antenna with
an amp. Avoid amplifiers! They can create more problems with Digital than they solve,
they amplify not only the desired signal but reflections and noise as well.
It's possible to have a picture with some pixelization to no picture at all when you
install an amp.If multipath is not a problem for you and you have a snowy analog
picture Digital can give you a perfect picture. Tv tuners will throw a monkey wrench into
works as well, certain brand tvs will receive better than others (sensitivity and multipath rejection)
and that could mean picture or no picture for those of us in fringe areas!

Walt I can tell you that with ATSC vs NTSC in AZ..it seemed that my analogs were not very reliable seemed like alot of interference and didnt take much to lose a great pic. Now with my DTV signals they were great. I actually coudnt pick up a Prescott stations analog signal at all but the digital one I got 70% on constant so it seems to be hit or miss but we will have to see. I think you might be ok. I have my antenna aimed already and I keep turning on my tir-451 to 53 once a day to see if I pickup WCAX. dont even turn on tv just look for hdtv signal. Anyone know any updated status info?

I'm getting a weak signal from WETK on channel 32 no picture no sound.

wow really are you sure its wetk? not somethig else?

No I'm not sure, the only thing I'm sure is that it is channel 32 as per TSReader

Source: ATSC BDA Source
Tuner: Channel 32 (581 Mhz)
Signal: 40% ( 3.000 dbm) [Locked]
Network Type: Unknown
Run Time: 000:04:10

Service Name: VPTHD
TSID: 3099 (0x0c1b) NTSC: 41 ATSC: 24 VT WINDSOR
Channel Number: 33.5

OMG! OMG! We have contact! Signs of life on Mt. Mansfield!!!

Now I can't wait to get home to see it for myself.

I did notice that WETK's analog channel was down earlier today but didn't see their digital signal yet.

from vpt.org

VPT Launches Digital Broadcast!

Vermont Public Television Activates Digital Signal From Atop Mt. Mansfield

Burlington's digital channel 33 completes VPT's four channel digital network

I have 5 VPT channels locked in at 99%! Only VPT1 and VPTHD have any video/audio. WooHoo !

Right now i have 5 channel at 60% No Video

Can anyone confirm what ERP they're at?

Right now I think they are at 0, I just lost the signal completly.

Lost Mine too.......

Darn. I was just about to call someone at home to test the signal.

Could anyone in VT please give them a call, ask for engineering and ask about what took place today and what ERP they were broadcasting at?

I hope it was't their full erp it never went over 55% over here.

If you read the announcement on http://vpt.org, they say they "went" live on Sept. 28th. But today is Sept. 27th. I suspect today's flicker was a test and tomorrow will be the real deal.

Wow! You guys got a signal FROM THE FUTURE!!! :D

I noticed today they were using the same Transport Stream ID (3099) as the sister station in Windsor, I wonder what effect this would have on someone located between the two stations.

Well no signal right now for me...

I just got this mail from WETK:

Things have come together well for VPT, and we're able to launch Thursday,
while PBS president Paula Kerger is visiting the station. She will help
us officially inaugurate service some time between 12:15 and 12:50 p.m.
I was on Mt. Mansfield Tuesday with a crew, and it was thrilling to see
the new antennas in place and the transmitter humming. (Also thrilling
because I took a dare to ride in the crane cage in exchange for getting
our taciturn chief engineer to say a few words on camera.) We'd be happy
to get your reports on how the signal looks. Thanks for your interest in
VPT's digital future.

Nothing for me here in Waterbury. I'm actually a bit concerned about my signal abillity even though I'm only 12 miles from the transmitters. I currently can't get a watchable signal from analog transmitters on Mansfield (hard to even make out large objects). The problem is I'm pretty much at the base of a mountain (basically at the Waterbury I-89 exit). Unfortunately, I can only use an indoor antenna (picked up the Terk HDTVa) because of where I live.

You might have a problem being right under cause of Umbrella effect man. But in another note your so close you might have a great chance at getting a good reflection signal off a building or mountain. In Phx I could do that for my WB signal Icouldnt get it cause of building right in front of me but I aimed out at a mountain to the west and I got a great signal no problems off reflection.

Ok guys I want the low down when someone knows the singal is up and producing. I wonder whats up with the other guys up there if they are ready to start soon.

OK. They're up now.

I'm only getting a signal reading of 45 though (with a temporary attic antenna). I was expecting something a little better than that though...

Did any of you read yipikyer's post above? She will help us officially inaugurate service some time between 12:15 and 12:50 p.m
Maybe I'm being too literal, but I took that to mean they're going to have a ceremonial "throwing of the switch" around noontime today. I wouldn't expect anything more than a test signal before that.

Got this from WETK at midningt:

we'll have a short spot on air today and for probably several weeks
announcing the news. I will post photos as I can on our website. No
documentary planned but informational spots.

They're down now. It must have been just a test to make sure the transmitter wouldn't conk out in front of the PBS President. That would have been embarassing. :o

Good news with pbs going onair. What about the others? wptz, wvny, wcax? When do we get to have abc nbc cbs fox like everybody else?
anybody here knows any eta?

on another note. Anybody here knows at what power is CBC and SRC transmitting? And at what power will the US networks launch?
Trying to figure out how will the signal reach and what kind of antennas will people need.
I'm in st-jean sur richelieu (about 45 mins from mtl and 45 mins from the border) and I can get CBC and SRC OTA with an indoor amplified cheap/simple antenna. (it has to be on the second floor though). Was wondering if I'll have the same kind of luck with the US networks.

In St-Jean I'm sure you'll be fine (you're within the Grade-B contour at that location). For those of us closer to Montreal, we're just outside the contour, so most of us will need outdoor antennas.

As far as I know, the other stations expect to be on within the next two weeks.

I hope they don't take too long around noon. I have to leave for work around 12:30, and need to see their signal before leaving!

I'm still without my HDTV but you guys are getting me pumped up and ready to act. I live in St. Albans and I'm wondering what I can expect to get for signals with an indoor antenna in my attic? Also, is there any way to test signal strength without an HDTV?

You don't need a HDTV, but you would need a separate HD Receiver to check OTA Signal Strength readings - Signal to Noise (SN) is also critical to receive digital signals.

We have a signal in Greenfield Park, Qc

Come in at 70 %. I Don't know if they're at full power.
2 channels 1 HD, the other SD
welcome. W
e've been waiting for you...

What % are you getting it at? How does it compare to the signal you got yesterday?

Well, I came home for lunch today around 12:00 and immediately did a scan. No signal. I then used the manual channel add mode to park it on 32 and watch for a signal. Right around 12:45PM EDT, the signal meter jumped.

I then went back and did a scan. It found 5 DT channels (033-1, 033-2, 033-3, 033-4, and 033-5). Only 033-1 and 033-5 appear to have any programming.

Signal strenth is a healthy 72% from a home-made square-loop antenna w/ UHF bow tie under my garage roof.

I'm getting a picture, but I don't seem to be getting any audio. Not sure if the problem is at their end or mine. I've got some stuff to do right now. Will check back in about an hour to see if the situation has resolved itself.

it is 1:00 pm and i did a ota scan with my hr10-250 and for the first time it registered 33.1-33.5 as digital channels. i had a signal strength of 92 , pretty good. i am located in shoreham vt and am using a rooftop antenna. cant wait for the big networks as long as i get a similar signal

Sorry, i edited my post. I get it at 70%

Not bad!!!


What % are you getting it at? How does it compare to the signal you got yesterday?

Hmm.... Still no audio. Anyone else having this problem (picture but no audio on 33-1 and 33-5)?

Although I haven't been able to play with searching yet, it sounds similar to what they're doing from Mt Ascutney - 5 channels sub/channels show up but only 2 have video / audio. Down here we get the SD channel on 24-1 and the HD feed (relay of national I think) on 24-5. Subs # 2,3 & 4 have nothing.

Has anyone got further info as to whether it's on full time and what power they're at?

Lastly, they may not be running any actual HD programming until tonight but rest assured, when they do, you're going to like it. :)

Unfortunately for me the signal is unstable at ~45% . I hope they are not at their full ERP yet.

437PM 10 miles line of sight to the west in Jericho and I have a tickle at 13% on one receiver and less on another. Mountian lake is perfect; did they cut the power?

From WETK:
the person I could ask about power has left. I know it looks good to the
master control operator now. Yes -- other broadcasters are working on the
mountain today, so that could be what's going on.

yipikyer

Are you still getting 70% signal strength?

Mostly between 69 and 72%

yipikyer

Are you still getting 70% signal strenght?

Huh. Looks like I'm climbing into the attic to change the antenna direction.....

I was hoping that having the Radioshack antenna optimized to Mountain Lake PBS at 302 degrees (compass) would still allow the reception of mansfield..which looks to the side of the antenna. Moreover I get the Mansfield analog's pretty good in this config.

Must be the diabolic nature of digital.

well if this is full power then Im screwed I still only get 1 bar from manny just like I do with Littleton PBS...looks like no OTA HD for me :( WAHHHHHH

You might have a problem being right under cause of Umbrella effect man. But in another note your so close you might have a great chance at getting a good reflection signal off a building or mountain. In Phx I could do that for my WB signal Icouldnt get it cause of building right in front of me but I aimed out at a mountain to the west and I got a great signal no problems off reflection.

Ok guys I want the low down when someone knows the singal is up and producing. I wonder whats up with the other guys up there if they are ready to start soon.


Looks like that's the problem. Using the Terk HDTVa on my Samsung SlimFit is giving me nothing. :(

I'm close from your location and i'm getting about 77% and the antenna is still inside the house, i'll move it to the roof next week. Luckyly from my location WCFE and VPT have their maximum power with the same antenna rotation angle...i guess my recently bought rotor will be pretty useless.

The digital PT hd feed (from spokane) i'm getting from the cable co seems better in quality, i guess multiplexing channels on the same carrier can lower the quality of that OTA mpeg compression.

Yipikyer, did you have the chance to compare the ota-hd feed with what we are getting from illico cable?

Mostly between 69 and 72%

Even with a weak signal I was able to watch "Legends of Jazz" awesome, thank you VPT.

So I hooked up rabbit ears to the 2nd antenna input on the Myhd card (good thing its got two inputs) and I can pull VPT in...~ 40%. Like WaltinVT stated the digital mimic of the analog is on 32-1 and the HD is on 32-5. 32-2,3,4 lock but aren't showing anything.

I don't have Illico. Just BEV. And around dinner time i got a lot pixelisation. But now, at 7:30, SMART Travel is Amazing. No pixelisation at all.

We'll see over time. I place a call for that already at the station. We'll see tomorrow.



Yipikyer, did you have the chance to compare the ota-hd feed with what we are getting from illico cable?

Hmm.... Still no audio. Anyone else having this problem (picture but no audio on 33-1 and 33-5)?
VTCOM...
Interesting, I could not wait to get home to check this monumental event out.
used my Dish Vip622, I receive the 5 stations from VPT plus the 2 from WCFE.
VPT is about 67% signal, great picture but no sound.
Then I switched to my Panasonic TV tuner, picked up the same station much lower signal level (~20-40) I get the sound but the picture has a lot of pixalization and the signal goes from 0 to 50 % at time.

WCFE gives me great picture and sound regardless of which tuner.

BTW I'm using an attic powered Radio shack antenna that resemples a ski.

Good luck to you

Receiving here in Montreal (Plateau Mont-Royal) 033-1 and 033-5, both 65% +, lock and clear, with an attic antenna (third floor), 4 bay Delhi no 4BT-1483, quite amazing!!! A good day for HDTV. Thanks all for keeping us informed. :eek:

I think this will be my first post ever... :) I'm in Colchester and am able to pick up VPT, but get pixelation every 30 seconds or so. All that I'm using is a crappy UHF loop antenna - the style that has the VHF ears as well and a knob to ajust as well, but not powered.

Any thoughts on what would be needed to get a better signal inside an apartment than this antenna? It would have to be an indoors model.....


Thanks!

Hello everyone!

I just wanted to share with you that from Chomedey Laval, I'm able to receive the brand new VPT-DT channels at around 80% signal strength using an amplified indoor antenna installed on the 2nd floor of my house.

I'm even able to receive all 4 available digital stations without needing to rotate the antenna. Can't wait to double the number of stations in the next couple of days!

VTCOM...
used my Dish Vip622, I receive the 5 stations from VPT plus the 2 from WCFE.
VPT is about 67% signal, great picture but no sound.

Hmm.... I'm also using a ViP622, which is lacking sound. I see a pattern. Time to fire up Google. I'll let you know once I get it figured out.

Incidentally, the very first time I tuned into VPT-HD at around 1:00PM this afternoon, it messed up my ViP622: I'd tuned into VPT-HD, and when I noticed the lack of sound, I started surfing up and down the dial, trying to figure out if other channels were(n't) giving me any sound. At that point, no matter what channel I tuned to (including returning to VPT-HD), I got no sound AND no picture. I eventually rebooted the box. The got me back to where I am now. Great picture on VPT1 and VPTHD, just no sound.

Ok. A little Googling turned up this thread...

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=64900&page=5

As luck would have it, they're pushing out a firmware update TODAY. As a matter of fact, my ViP622 appears to be receiving an update aas I type this.

I've got my fingers crossed!

Well, I'm not lucky for the moment. The small attic antenna I have at one location in St-Hubert gives me a reading of 49 on a Hughes HTL-HD, which seems to be the absolute threshold for this receiver. I sometimes get choppy video but no audio. I tried with a Samsung SIR-T151, got the green light but get no picture (two bars on that meter). I know that I should be getting it without problems once I put my bigger one outside, but it is still disappointing that it doesn't come in stronger than that, since the analog channels like 22 and 33 already looked OK from the attic. I haven't tried my other setup in Longueuil yet. I'll be calling WETK tomorrow morning to find out what the ERP is. Their CP says 100kw, but they have an APP for a slightly higher antenna position but at 25kw. I'd like to know which one they're using (geez I hope it's not the 100kw one). When WCFE signed on at 7.5kw, I had no problems receiving it, so I'm hoping WETK isn't broadcasting much higher than that right now...

For those who are getting it, can you compare VPT's HD picture to that of MountainLake's one?

Update: I plugged in an amplified indoor antenna to my tuners and got a lock right away (signal 68 on the HTL-HD and 8-9 bars on the SIR-T151. However, I am still nont getting proper video. The HTL-HD gives me the occasional video in choppy slow motion without any sound, and the SIR-T151 constantly re-tunes the channel (but never shows any picture).

So their signal appears to be strong enough, but there is some software problem in the stream that seems to be incompatible with two of my receivers, in addition to the other posters who can't receive sound either. I'll also have to wait until Saturday before testing my Sony TV's tuner as well as the one in the Expressvu 9200 (Dish 942) receiver.

A minor bump in the road... but at least it's a relief to see that I was able to get a lock so quickly with an indoor antenna at floor level, and that people as far as Laval were able to receive it with an indoor antenna as well.

Update:the SIR-T151 constantly re-tunes the channel (but never shows any picture).


I have a SIR-T165 and it does the same thing. Maybe it's a firmware problem.
I have not updated it for a while. Maybe the #$#@$ Broadcast flags does something to older receiver...???

On my tv(atsc) it work just fine. a bit lower than yesterday. 64% i don't know why.

I also have a Dish 622 and tried tuning in the stations last night at about 6pm - nothing - not even a flicker of signal.

Did anyone ever find out if they're full power yet?

Is their transmitter the same height as what the other stations will be?

I don't care about VPT since I get a great signal from Mt Ascutney and St Johnsbury but now I'm assuming I won't get the 4 nets when they start testing any time now.

Walt around 6pm is hwen I was doing my testing as well. And not to break your heart but I only one bar on my setup. So it really looks like were not going to be getting anything from mansfield. How irritating is that. On a side note this is going to give me a chance to find a new place to live ( I know i said it jokingly a while ago but my wife and i are divorcing and are going to sell the house).

Ok. A little Googling turned up this thread...

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=64900&page=5

As luck would have it, they're pushing out a firmware update TODAY. As a matter of fact, my ViP622 appears to be receiving an update as I type this.

I've got my fingers crossed!Went to bed last night as the new firmware was being downloaded. Turned it on this morning and confirmed that the version number went from L363 to L365. However, tuned in VPTHD and STILL NO AUDIO.

I tried a soft reboot at the front-panel. No change. I'm now in the process of doing a hard reboot. I unplugged it from the wall before leaving for work. When I get home tonight, I'll plug it back in and see if I can get it working. I really don't relish the thought of having to call Dish tech. support for this.

I don't care about VPT since I get a great signal from Mt Ascutney and St JohnsburyWalt,

Are you saying your ViP622 works fine with the signal from Mt. Ascutney? Are you not having any of the audio drop-outs that other ViP622 owners seem to be having?

Walt around 6pm is hwen I was doing my testing as well. And not to break your heart but I only one bar on my setup. So it really looks like were not going to be getting anything from mansfield. How irritating is that. On a side note this is going to give me a chance to find a new place to live ( I know i said it jokingly a while ago but my wife and i are divorcing and are going to sell the house).

I'm still waiting to hear if they're at anywhere near full power and if their transmitter is as high as what the other stations will be. I already get a great signal for VPT & NBC from Mt Ascutney - it's WFFF, WVNY & WCAX I'm more concerned with.

I heard from my engineer friend and WPTZ is laying wire and cables right now, so they must be getting close to testing.

Sorry to hear about the wife problems. You have my e-mail address, so drop me a line if you want to talk.

Went to bed last night as the new firmware was being downloaded. Turned it on this morning and confirmed that the version number went from L363 to L365. However, tuned in VPTHD and STILL NO AUDIO.

I tried a soft reboot at the front-panel. No change. I'm now in the process of doing a hard reboot. I unplugged it from the wall before leaving for work. When I get home tonight, I'll plug it back in and see if I can get it working. I really don't relish the thought of having to call Dish tech. support for this.

Walt,

Are you saying your ViP622 works fine with the signal from Mt. Ascutney? Are you not having any of the audio drop-outs that other ViP622 owners seem to be having?

Hey Tom,

Yes, I do get a great signal from Mt Ascutney for both WNNE-DT (NBC) and VPT with the 622. It's usually high 80s - low 90s.

That being said, I have found that neither the 942 nor the 622 is good at showing weaker signal activity - in fact it won't show anything under low 70s.

My old 811 used to indicate weak signal activity for some stations that were 80 to 120 miles away (Boston & Manchester, NH). Usually just 40s, 50s & 60s but I did get a brief lock once on a couple stations a couple times.

I've never seen my 622 show any signal until it's at least low 70s. Makes it a bitch to "zero in" on a station.

As a side note, I sure hope Dish doesn't totally screw up the 622 with their downloads. It wouldn't be the first time. They try to fix one or two things and break 4 or 5 more. :(

Walt and everyone:

Don't give up yet on the commercial stations. Check the contout maps provided by the FCC. I only looked at WCAX and it has much stronger signal penetration than the recently signed on VPT.

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=VT&call=&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=DT&type=0&facid=&list=2&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

That being said, I have found that neither the 942 nor the 622 is good at showing weaker signal activity - in fact it won't show anything under low 70s.

[snip]

I've never seen my 622 show any signal until it's at least low 70s. Makes it a bitch to "zero in" on a station.

Hmm... Maybe it's finally time to ditch my home-brew antenna and buy a real one. I'm getting 72% right now. Sounds like that's on the "hair edge" for this receiver. I'm only 20mi due west of the transmitter and have line-of-sight. I'd think a halfway decent antenna would peg it at 100%.

Also, could be it's time to upgrade the cabling from RG-59 to RG-6. RG-59 has been perfectly fine for analog reception, but maybe the digital tuners are more picky.

One last thing... What baffles me is that I AM getting a picture. The picture and audio are all imbedded within the same data stream on the same carrier, aren't they? I can't imagine a scenario where the antenna+cabling would make a different between getting a picture w/o sound vs. a picture w/ sound.

Hmm... Maybe it's finally time to ditch my home-brew antenna and buy a real one. I'm getting 72% right now. Sounds like that's on the "hair edge" for this receiver. I'm only 20mi due west of the transmitter and have line-of-sight. I'd think a halfway decent antenna would peg it at 100%.

Also, could be it's time to upgrade the cabling from RG-59 to RG-6. RG-59 has been perfectly fine for analog reception, but maybe the digital tuners are more picky.

One last thing... What baffles me is that I AM getting a picture. The picture and audio are all imbedded within the same data stream on the same carrier, aren't they? I can't imagine a scenario where the antenna+cabling would make a different between getting a picture w/o sound vs. a picture w/ sound.

Well I'm not very smart about the technical aspects of digital tv so maybe this will mean something to someone else. My engineer friend said in reference to the new VPT signal on Mansfield:

"they are on ch 32 RF and CH 33 for psip.".

Maybe it's something to do with the 5.1 audio vs the regular PCM sound. Do you guys that are NOT getting any sound have both composite AND optical hooked up? Also, are your receivers set up to use both audio feeds?

Oh and Tom, I believe that RG-6 is the minimum required for the 622 and would bet that is part of your problem - especially if it's a long run.

I am in Brossard (near Montreal). I have problem having a video signal on both of my TV (LG and Zenith, same decoder). The signal level is 80% + but the image is decoded for 1 or 2 second on one TV and intermitent on the other. Also, I never decode the audio signal.

Something is wrong with the signal. Very strong carrier but weak at the same time !!!?? may be signal deviation is not tune yet ??. All the other DTV signal's worked fine on both TV's. Montreal 19-20 and Montain PBS 38.

I have a Channel master roof antenna + roter.

They probably didn't have tuned the signal yet.

I will keep you up-dated if things improved.

Got this from engeneering:

October 12th for WCAX, WPTZ, WVNY/WFFF. Vermont Public Television is now transmitting HDTV.

Walt and everyone:

Don't give up yet on the commercial stations. Check the contout maps provided by the FCC. I only looked at WCAX and it has much stronger signal penetration than the recently signed on VPT.

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=VT&call=&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=DT&type=0&facid=&list=2&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

Yeah, but the ERPs of WFFF and WVNY will be much weaker. Also, if you're north-east of Mansfield, you might have problems getting WPTZ because stupid Industry Canada forced them to supress their signal in that direction, as it may interfere with a channel 14 analog station that DOESN'T EVEN EXIST in Sherbrooke.

I'm in St-Eustache (north Montreal). The signal level is 80% but the image is updated each 2 seconds (really bad).
The sound is perfect for 33.5 and some time I have sound on 33.1

My Antenna is in the Attic. (Pre-Amp Radio shack antenna).

I hope it's the signal that is not ok. Mountain PBS signal level is 70% and the image and sound are perfect.

Got this from engeneering:

October 12th for WCAX, WPTZ, WVNY/WFFF. Vermont Public Television is now transmitting HDTV.

October 12th? Their towers have been up for weeks, more than a week before VPT got their tower up! What have they been doing all this time? Riding around in VPT's crane cages? I thought they were going to be up within a few days.

Maybe they want to go live together and had to plans for the Big Chesse to be available!!!!


My own opinion

At 9 am this morning (Sep-29-06), I got a 74 signal on my Bell ExpressVu 9200 using an old 8 bowtie on the roof. All 5 channels were black with no audio. I get PBS in Plattsburgh ok, picture and sound is solid. From St. Laurent, (Montreal) Quebec.

Well, I hope they won't have any problems at getting everything done on the 12th, because if not they'll be doing it on Friday the 13th! :eek:

I might go down on the 9th or the 10th to check it out up there, as I'll have to go to Williston anyway to bring my Sony 34XBR960 get its cold tuner problem fixed before it goes out of warranty...

Got this from engeneering:

October 12th for WCAX, WPTZ, WVNY/WFFF. Vermont Public Television is now transmitting HDTV.

I'd be real surprised if some of you don't see some on-off signal activity before then.

To everyone with black screens on VPT, do you have legacy receivers?

My T-165 from Samsung work in Montreal for CBC and SRC but it's not working on VPT.

Any ideas? I know that i don't have the latest firmware in there(BF) I hope that it's not the problem as i don't know how to fix it.

My tv is fine.

Need clarification: The HD version of channel 33 broadcasts on Channel 32? I ask because the Titan TV listing that VPT links to from their website has a Channel 33.5 that's carrying all the HD programs but there's no 32 listed.

Yipikyer,

Your T-165 may be not the problem. In Brossard, I have problems with 2 TV's. Kro have problems in St-Eustache. Disto have problems in Montreal. either video or audio or both !!!????

I do not beleived that all of us have a problem with Burlington VPT while all other channel work fine. It must be something with the signal.

Do you have a contact at VPT, can you ask them to check the signal if thing are in spec ?

I hope they will find the problem. It is probably a small thing but crucial. We have to give them a chance they are up for only a day.

My guest is the problem will disappeared and we will never know what happen.
Another case of C.B.F.M. :-)

Thanks,

Powerdog,

If I read the question right, my answer is :
VPT from Mt-Mansfield is transmiting on Channel 32 but encoded the channel info 33.1 to 33.5 when your receiver decoded the signal. (they used the same number as their analog channel 33).
Montains lake PBS in Plattsburgh do the same. They transmit on channel 38 but encode the channel info 57.1 and 57.2(same as analog channel 57). Your receiver showed 57 when it is channel 38.

I hope it help.
Thanks,

Need clarification: The HD version of channel 33 broadcasts on Channel 32? I ask because the Titan TV listing that VPT links to from their website has a Channel 33.5 that's carrying all the HD programs but there's no 32 listed.

They physically broadcast on channel 32, but the receiver digitally pretends that it's on 33, so the old grannies won't bitch that they can't find their "stories" on the same channel that they used to.

It seems that the FCC is forcing stations to do this, although I would have prefered it if they would have stations map to whatever their final post-transition channel position would be.

Thanks! I'd also appreciate any help figuring this out, even tho I'm sure this is the wrong forum:

My Sony HDTV is the only piece of equipment I have that "understands" HD. I have my roof antenna's coax attached to a Panny E85 DVD recorder and sound coming from an optical connection to a 3 y.o. Denon receiver.

My guess is that I need to get a coax splitter, second coax cable, and a second optical cable. Run antenna input to both E85 and TV through the splitter, and optical from TV to receiver. Does this sound about right? I mean, with my current setup the E85 can't just get out of the way and let the TV do the tuning, can it? (Obviously, I'm not trying to record HD...just watch it.)

Also, is there such a thing as a good coax splitter -- better than the cheap things you buy for a few dollars?

Thanks! I'd also appreciate any help figuring this out, even tho I'm sure this is the wrong forum:

My Sony HDTV is the only piece of equipment I have that "understands" HD. I have my roof antenna's coax attached to a Panny E85 DVD recorder and sound coming from an optical connection to a 3 y.o. Denon receiver.

My guess is that I need to get a coax splitter, second coax cable, and a second optical cable. Run antenna input to both E85 and TV through the splitter, and optical from TV to receiver. Does this sound about right? I mean, with my current setup the E85 can't just get out of the way and let the TV do the tuning, can it? (Obviously, I'm not trying to record HD...just watch it.)

Also, is there such a thing as a good coax splitter -- better than the cheap things you buy for a few dollars?

I'll jump in here even though I'm technically challenged but I do have an E-85.

If Sony HDTV is the only way to get the HD signal, then that's where the digital signal has to get to. You could split the coax like you say but maybe there's a better way.

How are you watching regular tv now? With coax into the E-85, then coax out to the tv or have you just got composite and or component out to tv?

Even though the E85 can't use the digital signal, it might carry through a RF (coax)connection so the tv can see it. The E85 may or may not have to be on for the carry through.

Assuming that works, you should be able to pick up the digital channels with the tv's digital tuner.

Now I assume you're taking advantage of the E85 with all the other channels to use it similar to a DVR? Record, time slip, pause, skip ahead, etc?

You may be able to do that with the digital signal too if your tv has composite outputs - preferably S-Video & Red / White audio.

If so just run those to any of the 3 composite inputs on the E-85 (L-1, L-2 or L-3) and you should be able to intergrate a good 480 signal back into the E-85 where you can then do all the stuff you do with the other channels. Even though it won't be HD, the E85 makes a real good dvd from HD converted down to 480.

Once you figure out some of the tricks (which you probably already have), the E85 is a great machine.

Good luck.

My first post. I've been monitoring this thread for months. Just thought I'd chime in. I have a medium sized UHF/VHF outdoor antenna mounted inside the roof my garage. I live in Shelburne, VT, about 22 Miles line of site from Mansfield. I currently have the antenna directed about 90 degrees away from Mansfield (For WFFF analog) and still pull in 33.5 Fine. I can also pull in the NY PBS channel, 57.1 (a tick over 40 miles). I'm using a Window XP MCE PC with an ATI HDTV Wonder. Love it! Can't wait for the rest of them to come on line. Wooohoooo! My only missing component is the tv...I've waited in anticipation that pricing would relax. Guess it's time to step it up!

Here's a bummer. My dish 942 won't show any audio or video on vpt. Both CBC and SRC work fine.. My Directv Toshiba dst-3000 shows both audio and video.
So I think there's a problem with vpt signal and dish receivers, not with the signal itself...
Problem is my 942 records HD and my Toshiba does not. ;)

We'll wait and see.

ps: I've picked up a 942 off ebay cheap, and it record and pauses HD.
Sweet.

I live in Pointe-Claire on the island of Montreal and I am able to receive the signal using a Samsung TS-160 receiver with a RadioShack bowtie antenna. Steady signal but my meter shows 35-40%. Receiving both sub-channels. Audio and video is fine.

I tried calling their engineer but didn't reach him. There definitely is a compatibility issue with their stream.

I hope they're not gone for the weekend and that there is someone there to fix it.

Hello everyone!

I live in Lasalle which is located between the Mercier and Champlain bridge in Montreal and about 120 Miles from Mt-Mansfield.

I use a "Channel Master model 4248 Yagi Style UHF Antenna", which is approximately 55 to 60 feet above ground.

I receive VPT-DT channels at 98% and WCFE DT 57-1 at around 89%. I sure hope that the signal from all the other DT channel signal will come in as strong.

The antenna is connected to the ASTC tuner of a Toshiba 37HL95 LCD tv.


Thanks all for keeping us informed

Wow. It's nice to see so many former lurkers of this thread join the forum. Welcome!

For Ettisl who is using a Samsung 160, did you keep it attached to a DirecTV dish or did you just keep it OTA only? I'm trying to figure out if it just works on your Samsung because the firmware would have been updated automatically via satellite?

Just an FYI , Both digital 33 and 57 are fine , I have locked in all 7 channels. My setup is a VOOM satellite receiver for my OTA reception .Radioshack VU-160 antenna pointing at Mansfield w/RG6 cable, no amp and my location is Chazy NY. Signal is 99% for WETK and 91% for WCFE and not experiencing any problems. Perhaps some of you experiencing problems might have multi path reflection issues, I would try a very directional
antenna unless Dish recievers infact have an OTA issue. Just my humble opinion.

I will try to update my T-165 this weekend. I have the software, i just need to buy a cable to interface with the sammy.

Let you know asap if this change anything

Hoping for the best.

ps i'm waiting a response from the head engineer. As soon as he respond, i'll post it here.

Walt, I now have the coax from antenna to E85, and component from E85 to TV. You're saying that the E85 might take the place of a splitter. No harm in giving it a try, since I'd need another coax cable whether I use a splitter or not. I just wish there were a way to find out if the E85 just passes through whatever coax signal it receives. Trial and error, huh?

Walt, I now have the coax from antenna to E85, and component from E85 to TV. You're saying that the E85 might take the place of a splitter. No harm in giving it a try, since I'd need another coax cable whether I use a splitter or not. I just wish there were a way to find out if the E85 just passes through whatever coax signal it receives. Trial and error, huh?
Well I know it passes cable signals through to my tv whether the E85 is on or off, so it should work.

Great! Here's goes...

Hello everyone!

I live in Lasalle which is located between the Mercier and Champlain bridge in Montreal and about 120 Miles from Mt-Mansfield.

I use a "Channel Master model 4248 Yagi Style UHF Antenna", which is approximately 55 to 60 feet above ground.

I receive VPT-DT channels at 98% and WCFE DT 57-1 at around 89%. I sure hope that the signal from all the other DT channel signal will come in as strong.

The antenna is connected to the ASTC tuner of a Toshiba 37HL95 LCD tv.


Thanks all for keeping us informed


here, we are in Prevost PQ, up the Laurentian mountains at 45° 52' N, 74° 05' W. 150 miles away from Mt Mansfield.

I use a Channel master 4221 (4 bowties) and a radioshack 30db preamp. I can pull VPT digitals at 28db will all analogs from burlington and platsburg (no rotor needed)

I'm far away but I get an unobstructed view to mt mansfield due to the elevations of my own and VPT antennas


receiver is a dvico fusion hdtv 5 PCI card next to my satellite DVB pci card.

SmogTDI

You are 90 mi away from Ottawa how good a signal are you getting from CBC / SRC Ottawa and Montreal. You can answer on the Montreal thread so we do not hijack this one.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6523323

After reading this thread for a few weeks I'd thought I'd chime in here.
I'm in Wheelock and using a set of rabbit ears hooked to a dish 622.I get a reading of 70-73 but I only get 1 out of the 5 channels and it appears to be the same as what I get from Dish and the quality is the same-definitely SD.The other 4 channels are black with no audio.

Did VPT get a boost in signal strength? Right now my antenna isn't pointed directly at Mansfield, but I'm pulling a 60% signal, yesterday it was a 25% signal pointing in the same direction. The best I could do yesterday was get it to 65% when pointed directly at Mansfield, but then I lost the WCFE signal. Hopefully now I'll be able to find an antenna position to watch both VPT and WCFE without rotating.

I'm located in Laval, just north of Montreal. I can get channels 19 and 20 when the antenna is pointed in the right direction, but I can't get all the digital channels without rotating the antenna. Hopefully this will change if/when Canadian channels start broadcasting from Mt. Royal.

Wow. It's nice to see so many former lurkers of this thread join the forum. Welcome!

For Ettisl who is using a Samsung 160, did you keep it attached to a DirecTV dish or did you just keep it OTA only? I'm trying to figure out if it just works on your Samsung because the firmware would have been updated automatically via satellite?

I purchased this receiver on ebay with the software upgrade already there. I believe it came with version 1.?.14 which includes the broadcast flag update. I am using it for OTA only and never connected to DirectTV.

Was just surprised this morning that channels 033.1 and 033.5 were not broadcasting any sound, image is nice. Everything was great up to this early morning. Anyone of you had noticed a similar situation? Thanks. :confused:

Was just surprised this morning that channels 033.1 and 033.5 were not broadcasting any sound, image is nice. Everything was great up to this early morning. Anyone of you had noticed a similar situation? Thanks. :confused:What receiver are you using? The concensus on this forum seems to be that Echostar/DishNetwork equipment is having trouble getting any audio from VTP OTA.

I didn't have any problem since this morning. Sound and image were perfect, reception is still around 70%. I have a HDTV TV, Sanyo, model HT30744 with a DT tuner built in. If I make research, I might find the real type of tuner in this TV. thanks.

What receiver are you using? The concensus on this forum seems to be that Echostar/DishNetwork equipment is having trouble getting any audio from VTP OTA.

Hughes/LG as well, plus the old Samsung tuners can't get anything.

Hi,
Another one of the lurkers. I live in Richmond and right now I have dish network with an hd receiver. Is it possible to tie into that or should I go buy an antenna and go direct in with coax? Also, I happen to have extra dishes attatched on the roof, can I use any of these in lieu of purchasing an antenna? Whoops, I have a sony with an internal tuner.

TIA

Hmm.... I'm also using a ViP622, which is lacking sound. I see a pattern. Time to fire up Google. I'll let you know once I get it figured out.

Incidentally, the very first time I tuned into VPT-HD at around 1:00PM this afternoon, it messed up my ViP622: I'd tuned into VPT-HD, and when I noticed the lack of sound, I started surfing up and down the dial, trying to figure out if other channels were(n't) giving me any sound. At that point, no matter what channel I tuned to (including returning to VPT-HD), I got no sound AND no picture. I eventually rebooted the box. The got me back to where I am now. Great picture on VPT1 and VPTHD, just no sound.
VTTom.
There is no question that it is a problem with teh 622. I received a replacement 622 for other problems (randon resets, cold reboots etc...) same results with VPT and lack of sound with the new receiver. So I tried my 811 this morning and it pickep up VPT solid with SOUND.
Same antenna, same conditions etc...
How can I convince E* that's its their problem when they don't even own up to the random reboots? lately I have seen the worst CSR with E* when it comes to 622, they always blame it on software. What are the options? None. I will never go back to cable, and D* has even less HD.

Hey folks.

I've been able to test WETK's signal at my other location in Longueuil with an outdoor antenna. After rotating it off Plattsburgh and pointing it on Mt. Mansfield, I managed to get WETK's signal with a 95!

However, I was still not able to watch anything with an HTL-HD that gets all its updates. I did manage to get the signal to work with a D* H10 and my Sony TV.

Also, I think I may have found what their problem is. When VPT's channels showed up in my H10's guide, I saw the channels listed as 33.1, 33.3, 33.4, 33.5. However, the .2 subchannel shows up as 41.2, meaning that they ARE having a PSIP problem.

<snip>....Also, I think I may have found what their problem is. When VPT's channels showed up in my H10's guide, I saw the channels listed as 33.1, 33.3, 33.4, 33.5. However, the .2 subchannel shows up as 41.2, meaning that they ARE having a PSIP problem.
Sure sounds it. That also may account for people having problems with their Dish 622s. I know that receiver is real sensitive to any anomolies in the data stream.

Folks,

Engineering at VPT has the following email address: engineering@vpt.org. I suggest anyone having reception problems (such as myself) send them email with a description of the problem. They probably won't recognize it as an issue until they get a "critical mass" of messages.

I sent them a note on Friday describing my situation (where my ViP622 gets a picture but no sound). So far, there's been no response.

I just now sent another note with a link to this forum, and copy/pasted the 2 posts above regarding the .2 sub-channel anomally. I'm hoping that gets their attention.

I wish I could get a signal from some other OTA HD station, just so I could figure out if it's a problem with just VPT's signal, or a problem with all OTA stations.

I'd run out and buy one of these (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103088&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032205&pg=2&parentPage=family) and point it at WFCE's DT tower if only any of the nearby RadioShacks had one in stock!

OK, I'm confused. Lots of channel numbers mentioned here. To clarify, when I use an OTA antenna to get the HD version of Channel 33, do I try tuning to:

Ch. 33
Ch. 32
Ch. 33.1 (or .2, .3...etc)
Ch. 41.2

If it's the third option, do I just use trial-and-error to pick the best tenth?

Tom and other VPT viewers, I recommend you call Ann Curran at VPT. She's not a techie, but she's very friendly and responsive. Says she'd follow through, and she does (that's my impression, anyway). She'll either connect you to the right person or get the answer to you.

My only caveat is that I'd guess technicians are in short supply there while they're working on Mt. Mansfield.

OK, I'm confused. Lots of channel numbers mentioned here. To clarify, when I use an OTA antenna to get the HD version of Channel 33, do I try tuning to:

Ch. 33
Ch. 32
Ch. 33.1 (or .2, .3...etc)
Ch. 41.2

If it's the third option, do I just use trial-and-error to pick the best tenth?The easiest thing to do is to let your reciever do a scan and find them for you. If you want to do it manually, then tune to Channel 32. That's the actual frequency over which VPT's digital signal is broadcast.

The confusion comes from the fact that the FCC told stations to electronically identify their DT broadcasts using the same channel number as their existing analog broadcast, which is where channel 33 enters the picture (that's VPT's analog channel). This part was supposed to avoid confusion for the end-user. However, I think it only confuses things further.

There's really only one "data stream" coming from the broadcast tower. This stream is capable of delivering several sub-channels. The broadcaster is free to choose how many sub-channels they use and what programming is shown on each sub-channel. That's where 33.1, 33.2, etc. come from.

The 41.2 issue is a discovery on the part of Foxfan that VPT has done something wrong with their data stream, incorrectly identifying the 33.2 subchannel as 41.2.

Tom and other VPT viewers, I recommend you call Ann Curran at VPT. She's not a techie, but she's very friendly and responsive. Says she'd follow through, and she does (that's my impression, anyway). She'll either connect you to the right person or get the answer to you.

My only caveat is that I'd guess technicians are in short supply there while they're working on Mt. Mansfield.

I concur, Ann was very helpful to me when they were in the process of launching their Mt Ascutney digital station. If she didn't have the answer, she'd go find it and get back to me.

Anyone seeing any other signal activity besides 32? WFFF & WVNY said they were going to start testing on Oct-1st, so we should see something soon.

I say "we" but since I'm not getting anything on 32, I may not get anything from the commercial stations either unless their power is significantly higher.

You guys that can see the towers, does there still seem to be much activity there or has it quieted down to normal?

Walt, aren't you better off trying to get the Windsor/Mt. Ascutney VPT HD station?

Walt, aren't you better off trying to get the Windsor/Mt. Ascutney VPT HD station?
Oh definitely.

I don't need the Burlington VPT or NBC as I get a great signal off Mt Ascutney but that's all there is on Mt Ascutney - no ABC, no Fox & no CBS.

Now I do currently get the Dish CBS-HD feed from NY but that's all Dish currently offers for distant HD nets and even that may disappear, depending on the final outcome of pending court action on distants and whether it affects digital distants in the same way.

Also apparently Charter is choosing to let it's business go down the tubes in Vt by not offering HD anywhere in the state, so I have No options for ABC & Fox in HD unless I can get a signal from Mt Mansfield.

Soooooo that's why I'm concerned about the VPT signal there - as a kind of indication of the stations soon to come. :)

The only hope for many of us over this end of the state is if these stations can reach out far enough for us to see them.

I'm getting so excited about finally getting OTA PBS in HD on my HDTV (just waiting for a coax cable to arrive) that I'm even thinking about that new HD Tivo. Thing is, I assume that if a station isn't listed on zap2it, there won't be any listings on a Tivo. I see that 28.2 has HD listings there...

http://tvlistings5.zap2it.com/tvlistings/GridAction.do?zipcode=05401

...but there's no 32.

Is 28.2 your Mt. Ascutney station, and did it take a while for zap2it/Tivo to include the listings?

I just got an email from them telling me that they did some changes. It's now working on my Sammy t165!!!

Now, can't wait to get home.........:)

At around 3:30PM today, I got the following email in response to my Friday email to engineering@vpt.org:

Hi Tom,
Please retune our channel and see if it gets any better.
Since we have 4 transmitter sites I made some changes in the remapping of
the Ch33 site. Let me know if it improved.
Thanks.
Around 4:00, I went home, turned to channel 33.5, and voila! I now have picture AND SOUND!

Looks like im fooked I cant get a strong enough signal here at my house in Groton. ARGGH.... And I have my antenna about 50ft up there with a preamp and all

Their PSIP change this afternoon fixed the problem with my Sony DirecTv HD-300. I'm getting a beautiful picture and sound on 33.1 and 33.5. Nice diagnostic work everyone and congratulations to the techs who actually fixed it. It's been a long time coming but Mt. Mansfield is now digital!

So I broke down and actually bought an antenna. Stopped by the local Circuit City and grabbed the Silver Sensor for $25. I've been researching antennas a lot lately, and have read only good things about it. I went up to my 2nd story bedroom, pointed it straight at Plattsburgh, did a scan on my ViP622, and now I get WCFE-DT at around 72% and WETK-DT at around 92% (off the backside of the antenna, no less). I think I can improve on the signal if swap out a 20' section of RG-59 cabling for a shorter run of RG-6. The total cable run is about 50ft. with the balance, which is inside the walls, already RG-6.

According to an FCC website I visited, WCFE-DT is 42 miles almost due west. WETK-DT is 13 miles almost due east. I think these are the only DT tranmissions I could hope to receive right now.

I got the same response as Tom this afternoon and their signal now works on all my receivers.

In comparing both Mountain Lake and Vermont PBSes though, I found that Mountain Lake has a better picture quality in HD, although they had to make their SD channel unwatchable to do so. Where I'm at though I'm not really able to get both at the same time with the antenna pointed in one direction, so I'll have to stay with VPT.

I got the sound back on my Sanyo HT-30744 but before I had to do a reset using the reset button on the tv remote control (back to factory settings). Strange but it worked ! Happy again…

Why is there so much difference in quality between the 2 Pbs HD channel. VPT is far more compressed. I'm wondering how NBC will looked with their Weather Plus channel. Apprantly CBS is also planning multicasting.

Was multicasting a part of ATSC standard from the start?
What is supposed to be the standard bitrate allowed for a channel. And if it's multicast how many channel can they add without destroying the main HD channel. ex: if we have problem with VPT at 2 channels, what it will look like with 5 channels!! Or did they already allowed the bandwith for the other 3 channels to come?

please enlight me


In comparing both Mountain Lake and Vermont PBSes though, I found that Mountain Lake has a better picture quality in HD, although they had to make their SD channel unwatchable to do so. Where I'm at though I'm not really able to get both at the same time with the antenna pointed in one direction, so I'll have to stay with VPT.

Foxfan, mind telling us what town you're in? Thanks.

My LG tv is now able to tune VPT properly!

I wonder why yesterday 33.5 was at 90% and Montain lake was at 70%, this morning 33.5 was at 60% and and Montain lake was still at 70%.

Do you think there is a noticeable difference between 70% reception and 100%? I was planning to buy a CM-4228 but since my reception is better than expected I think I will keep my Radio Shack attenna.

Just wanted to mention that I watched NBC's "Heroes" on WNNE-DT (OTA from Mt Ascutney) last night and it was some of the best HD I've ever seen. It blows away anything I've ever seen on Dish's HD (and I have all their channels).

My hat's off to Joe & Roger with what they've done with that station and if they do as well with WPTZ-DT, you people will have some great NBC HD to look forward to.

I just wish they (or someone) would do a similar deal on Mt Ascutney like you guys are getting on Mansfield.

Walt:
Do you have the WeatherPlus channel on WNNE?

If so, is the main channel affected by it?

I wonder why yesterday 33.5 was at 90% and Montain lake was at 70%, this morning 33.5 was at 60% and and Montain lake was still at 70%.The weather can play a big role in how much signal gets to you.

Walt:
Do you have the WeatherPlus channel on WNNE?

If so, is the main channel affected by it?
I haven't seen it yet. I'll reserve judgment but I really don't think it will affect the main channel a whole lot.

Hi Everyone:
I'm up and running in Williston, VT off of MountainView drive. I just bought and hooked up a Samsung SIR-T451 HD Tuner along with a cheap Philips HD antenna (non-amplified for 19.99 at Circuit City) and I'm getting a killer signal from VPT-PBS on channel 33.5.

I noticed right away that the picture is much better than my Adelphia cable HD signal(s). I'm able to toggle back and forth between my HD Cable box and my HD Tuner and it's not even close. There are absolutely no compression artifacts from the OTA signal - it's an incredibly smooth and clear picture with zero digital blocking/video noise. Can't wait for Oct 12 to see the rest of the channels.

just hooked up a small rabbit ears to my HD Tivo from D* here in vergennes, got a nice 70% signal on VPT 33.5. Picture is pretty bland for HD, but artifacting is non existent. So is this likely to mean that I will be able to tune the rest of the locals when they come up?

BTW: anybody get D* tivo to provide guide info for this station?

The weather can play a big role in how much signal gets to you.

Wow, Yesterday it was completely clear and I was getting an unwatchable 25% signal, now it's cloudy and I'm getting 75%. Is this solely due to the weather? VPT seems to be the only station affected, all the others have more or less the same signal strength. Is it possible VPT tests at a higher power occasionally, This is the second time I have a strong signal, when usually it's at 25%.

i have a hd with tivo from d* in shoreham here and my guide does not show any of the programming either.

When Comcast takes over for Adelphia does anyone know what HD channels they will offer? are we going to loose HDNET? also does anyone know if they offer a HD DVR? and what brand do they use? Last question is there going to be more or less expensive than adelphia and whats the deal with the 50$ renting charge for cable boxes? OK 1 more were is all the press about this switch over? I've only got a flyer in the mail, anyone have any links to recent stuff?

Hi everyone! I have been reading your posts for a couple of months now and was hoping to be able to figure out Hd ota on my own but I can't, so here it goes.

I live in Barre Vt 28 miles away from Mt Mansfield according to antennaweb. I have 2 hdtv's one with a atsc tuner built in, the other without. We currently subscribe to Directv HD so both tv's are run through the directv hd hr-20 box.

I have no idea what antenna I need to buy since antennaweb shows a different type of antenna for each station (ie. medium,large,multidirectional). How do the antennas get installed? Can I use indoor antennas or do I need a large outdoor one? Do the tv's get hooked up diff since one has a tuner built in? Do I need 2 separate antenna's? Any help would be greatly appreciated? Since I am an obvious clueless novice is there someone I can call to help me figure it this out, that won't cost an arm and a leg? Thanks-

Hi,
I had written a couple of days ago asking about what sort of antenna to get but no response. Should I being using a different thread? Also, comcast will be here in Nov. the hd channels will be basically the same. I can't release much more info than that, but yes they have hd/dvr's and in fact the equipment will remain the same for now, maybe for quite a while.

Thanks
Russ

My roommates both have Comcast already in their hometowns and have been very happy with their service. They constantly talk about how much Adelphia sucks, which it does, so I assume that Comcast is much better service. I believe other Comcast markets have TNT HD, but apparently not HD Net or HD Movies. Other than that the HD channels are the same as Adephia. HD DVR is also available. Prices are comparable to Adelphia's (the equivalent of Adelphia's digital Silver pack costs about the same - $85-$90/month). As far as the $50 cable box fee and the lack of press I can't really offer any insight.

Hi,
I had written a couple of days ago asking about what sort of antenna to get but no response. Should I being using a different thread? Also, comcast will be here in Nov. the hd channels will be basically the same. I can't release much more info than that, but yes they have hd/dvr's and in fact the equipment will remain the same for now, maybe for quite a while.

Thanks
RussLance,

I went back and read your post. No offense, but it was a bit rambling and the question you were asking was not clear...

You need a "regular" TV antenna to receive OTA (over the air) HDTV. You cannot adapt an unused satellite dish for this purpose.

Go to http://antennaweb.org and enter your location information. It will recommend an antenna for you. One caveat. The color-coding system apparently only applies to outdoor antennas. Being in Richmond, you are very likely close enough to use an indoor antenna.

Here's what I did...

I went out and bought the Zenith Silver Sensor at Circuit City, plugged it into my 13" analog TV, tuned it to channel 33, and pointed the antenna straight at Mt. Mansfield. I then tweaked the direction of the antenna until I got the clearest picture possible. I then unplugged the antenna from my analog set and plugged it into my HD receiver and did a scan. It picked up VTP-HD at 96% signal strength.

Your reception can depend on a lot of factors, so you'll have to experiment.

Walt/other OTA users: have you seen the program guide (Titan) that VPT links to? Now I'm really confused!!

There's a 33.5 (VPT HD) that has some HD shows, but a 33.1 (VPT DT) that doesn't. Yet I tune to 32 to get HD? How does the tuner know that 32 should = 33.5 and not 33.1? And what's the purpose of a non-HD digital station? Help!!

Walt/other OTA users: have you seen the program guide (Titan) that VPT links to? Now I'm really confused!!

There's a 33.5 (VPT HD) that has some HD shows, but a 33.1 (VPT DT) that doesn't. Yet I tune to 32 to get HD? How does the tuner know that 32 should = 33.5 and not 33.1? And what's the purpose of a non-HD digital station? Help!!

Hello,

A digital station still broadcasts its stream using a normal UHF or VHF channel, like older analog stations used to. So in order to tune to it, the TV will need to tune to the proper frequency.

Within its digital broadcast, a digital station is able to broadcast multiple virtual channels simultaneously (multicasting), and each of these virtual channels are given numbers and names by the digital station.

It is the norm for digital stations to number these virtual channels using the older analog frequency numbers, so that people can just refer to the channel numbers they already know.

So in the case of VPT-DT, it broadcasts on UHF channel 32.

Their digital stream includes 5 virtual channels: 33.1 to 33.5.

33.1 (VPT DT) Is the same channel that they broadcast on analog channel 33.
33.5 (VPT HD) Is their new HD channel.

The other virtual channels are currently unused, but I believe that some PBS stations did use them for channels like PBS Kids when there was no HD show being broadcasted.

So to wrap things up, you will select channel 33.1 or 33.5 on your TV, but your TV will tune to UHF 32 in order to receive the digital VPT. Before the 33.1 and 33.5 channels are available, your TV must know there's a digital feed on UHF 32. The easiest way to to this is to let the TV scan for available digital channels.

Lookup PSIP on wikipedia to know more about this and other digital stream benefits.

First off... Keeneye, that's about the most lucid answer to that question I've ever seen. Well done.

Secondly.. I wonder if it's time to start a FAQ for this thread? This question about ch 33 vs. ch 32 has come up several times in just the last few days. Also, there have been lots of questions about antennas and hooking it all up.

If someone could suggest a suitable (and free) host site, I'd be willing to copy/paste the Q's & A's from this thread into an HTML document and stick it up there.

Alternatively, we could pic an arbitrary post in this forum thread as the FAQ post, which someone would have to agree to keep up-to-date and to which we would refer people asking questions.

Vttom, as one who would benefit most from such a FAQ, I give the idea 3 thumbs up!

<snip>....
Go to http://antennaweb.org and enter your location information.


I just tried it again before I start my rant.

Antennaweb.org has been unreliable for over 2 years for my area and it remains that way today. They are also very arrogant and refuse to update their program per viewer feedback.

As an example, my address is 800 feet ABSL in Bradford, Vt., with decent views to the south & south west. I get a superb signal for WNNE-DT (25) and VPT (24) from Mt Ascutney both in the low 90s.

I have emailed them to this affect 3 or 4 times in the past year and they still list me as no digital signals at all. I know they've received my emails because they even responded to one.

Maybe they fine for other locations but they sure aren't for mine.

VTTom

Thank you for the info. If it seemed incoherent and rambling that is me and I apologize. I guess my question is: How much are interior antenna's and what if I get one and it doesn't work? Would most places take back an antenna?

Thanks again in advance

I guess my question is: How much are interior antenna's and what if I get one and it doesn't work? Would most places take back an antenna?You can pay anywhere from <$20 to >$100, but, like most consumer electronics, the price isn't always consistent w/ performance.

As for whether stores take them back... I don't know. I think most antennas require some amount of assembly, with component parts sealed in shrink wrap, so it's unlikely that you'll be able to buy one, play with it, re-package it, and return it as unopened. The best advice is to simply be up-front and ask the sales-person before you buy it about open-box returns. Sometimes it means you can return it, but you get store-credit back instead of cash. Also, sometimes there is a "restocking fee".

Allow me to share my recent experience hitting the big-box stores in Willison, and the local Radio Shack....

Basically, the sales guys on the floor don't know squat about what you need for an antenna. I think this is partly due to ignorance, but also partly due to the fact that most people who come in for antenna's live in "the boonies" and need big ol' rooftop antennas with amplification.

I didn't fall into that category so I was pretty much on my own. Having done some Internet research, I'd decided I needed a directional, unamplied, internal UHF antenna (I'd guess, based on where you live, that you fall into that category as well).

When I saw the Zenith Silver Sensor at Circuit City for $25, I grabbed it. I'd remembered seeing very good reviews for it on-line.

I've been very happy with it since. While I bought it for pointing at Mt. Mansfield, I did play around with it shortly after hooking it up, and if you look back a few days in this thread, you'll see that I was able to use it to pull in WCFE-DT from ~40 miles away.

Maybe they fine for other locations but they sure aren't for mine.Hey, Walt. Have you heard of this search tool on the FCC's website?

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html

Scroll down to the section in blue, enter your location (in degrees/minutes/seconds of latitude and longitude) and a radius, and it spits out a list of which stations fall within the circle, along with information on power, distance, and bearing.

I hope they get WFFF up and running before we get too much futher into the baseball playoffs.

Too bad they're not all on ESPN, I can't stand Tim McCarver and Joe Buck...

My only concern is buying an internal antenna and then finding out that I need an outdoor on the roof antenna. This is probably a silly question but do antenna's run the same way cable does. Meaning do I run coax off of an antenna and into my t.v. I understand cable, but I am new to this over air stuff. Again thank you.

My only concern is buying an internal antenna and then finding out that I need an outdoor on the roof antenna. This is probably a silly question but do antenna's run the same way cable does. Meaning do I run coax off of an antenna and into my t.v. I understand cable, but I am new to this over air stuff. Again thank you.OTA television uses the same cable/connectors as cable TV. To get OTA HD television, you need an HDTV with an ATSC tuner built-in, or a set-top box (STB) with one.

In either case, there should be writing on the back panel that tells you which input is for the antenna.

Once you get the antenna plugged in and pointed, get into the setup menu for your HDTV or STB and scan for local channels. Experiment with positioning/pointing the antenna until you get maximum signal strength.

Hey, Walt. Have you heard of this search tool on the FCC's website?

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html

Scroll down to the section in blue, enter your location (in degrees/minutes/seconds of latitude and longitude) and a radius, and it spits out a list of which stations fall within the circle, along with information on power, distance, and bearing.
Tom,
Yes I had seen that site but had forgotten about it.

One I like better that I think uses the same database information but presents it in nicer format is:

http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp

Okay. So given that I live on Rte 2 right b4 the town of richmond, what are the chances I can use an indoor antenna like the sensor and pick up the towers on Mt. Mansfield. Opinions are fine, I am just curious.

Why don't you hop over to BB or CC and get one? You have 30 days to find out.

WCAX-TV Announces High Definition Broadcasting

October 5, 2006

Viewers of WCAX-TV and other television stations in the Burlington-Plattsburgh market will soon be able to receive high-definition digital television signals over the air. Using high definition digital television (HDTV) sets equipped with ATSC tuners, viewers will be able to receive CBS and other high definition programming for free on WCAX-DT. Over the air reception merely requires the use of an appropriate antenna system attached to the HDTV set.

Previously, the only method of receiving WCAX-TV's high definition programming was through the high definition service offered by Adelphia Cable on channel 703.

Broadcast of the high definition digital signal will begin in the next ten to fourteen days. The exact date will be announced several days in advance. WCAX-DT will broadcast on channel 53.

WCAX-TV, WPTZ-TV, WVNY-TV, WFFF-TV, and Vermont Public Television, as well as Vermont Public Radio and Clear Channel radio stations, participated in a long term co-location effort atop Mt. Mansfield in Vermont to build digital broadcast facilities near the site of WCAX-TV's present analog transmitter.

"It has been a long, careful, and costly endeavor to bring the advantages of digital television to our respective audiences," said WCAX-TV President and General Manager Peter Martin. "A lot of people have asked us when it would happen in our area, and we are pleased to announce that it is finally at hand. The improvements in the picture and sound quality are outstanding. The wide screen theatrical-style picture must be seen to be fully appreciated."

WCAX-TV Vice President for Engineering, Ted Teffner spearheaded the construction project and offered these thoughts, "Digital broadcasting offers our viewers the best possible viewing experience right in their homes. The picture and sound quality far surpasses analog TV...even DVDs...and HDTV sets offer wide-screen, more dramatic venues to display sports, entertainment, and news programs."

Analog broadcasting is currently slated to discontinue in the United States on February 17, 2009. Until that time, WCAX-TV will continue to broadcast on Channel 3, its current analog channel. Cable and satellite providers are expected to offer local high definition service and users of those reception methods should consult their providers for information on when local digital channel will be available.

Conventional analog television sets will only be able to receive digital signals when equipped with a set-top converter designed for that purpose, or when attached to cable or satellite systems offering the converted digital signals.

There are several methods to receive high definition digital television programming, please note that all methods require an HDTV set:

Reception of free over the air local HDTV broadcasts requires a high definition digital television with an ATSC tuner attached to an antenna. In some areas, the antenna may need to be mounted outside of the dwelling to receive the digital broadcast signal.

Some cable systems offer local high definition programming. Subscribers should consult their cable company for details and availability. Viewers with HDTVs in many areas may also be able to use an external antenna, in addition to their cable feed, to receive local high definition programming at no additional charge.

Many satellite providers offer local channels as an option. Subscribers should consult their satellite providers for information and availability of high definition local channel programming. Viewers with HDTVs in many areas may also be able to use an external antenna, in addition to their satellite feed, to receive local high definition programming at no additional charge.

WCAX-DT will broadcast over channel 53, but over the air viewers with ATSC tuner equipped HDTVs will be still able to tune their digital sets to channel 3. The ATSC tuner will re-map and display the channel correctly. Cable and satellite users should consult their providers for availability and channel selection of WCAX-DT.

Vermont's Own WCAX-TV/DT is the CBS affiliate in Burlington, Vermont, and is locally owned and operated by Mt. Mansfield Television, Inc.

I have noticed that in this burgeoning stage of Mt. Mansfield's digital TV, HDTV people are already seeing different quality in the digital signals, which leads me to the issue of bandwidth and multicasting.

My limited ASTC understanding is that 1080i or 720p digital broadcasting take up most of not all of the 6 MHz bandwidth that has been allocated to each station. So, to send a “true” high definition picture, each station is limited to broadcasting one channel.

I know that TV stations are looking for ways to pay for the millions they have invested in the digital transition, and feel that simply broadcasting in HD the one channel that they now send out in analog isn’t enough. But, since the ASTC allows them a variety of digital formats, why not send out multiple signals to increase your revenue stream.

Now, I have read that both WCAX and WPTZ are planning on multicasting at least two digital channels. If this is true and they multicast all the time, then one would guess that their HD signal will be compromised in order to fit both signals within the 6 MHz bandwidth.

Is this what we have to look forward to from the tallest mountain in Vermont and the last State to get digital TV?

Now, I have read that both WCAX and WPTZ are planning on multicasting at least two digital channels. If this is true and they multicast all the time, then one would guess that their HD signal will be compromised in order to fit both signals within the 6 MHz bandwidth.

I never understand the needs for multicasting. Most OTA stations in Canada use the full bandwidth for the HD channel and, personally, I see and I like the difference. An HD channel at 18 Mbps is really a beautiful thing to see.

- An 8VSB transmission on a 6 Mhz channel can transmit 19.4 Mbps of data. On this bitrate, maybe around 18 Mbps could be use for the "real" (video and sound) data.
- With one active sub-channel, the bitrate for the HD channel will be lowered around 14-15 Mbps. This is still quite acceptable but a bit of "smoothing" effect will be use to smoothen the picture, just for limiting the amount of pixellisation. This is quite commun in the USA and the normal HD network stream is often in this range.
- With two active sub-channels, the bitrate for the HD channel will be lowered around 11-12 Mbps. In this case, the HD channel will lack a lot of detail.
- More than 2 sub-channels, this is suicidal for the quality of the HD Channel.

Ok, the content of the sub-channel is important. A simple weather channel, as useless as it may seems, will not take the 2-3 Mbps normally associate to a SD channel. So, in short, one sub-channel may well fit in the stream, specially if the content is simple to encode but if the 4 sub-channels for VPT are active in the same time, the HD channel will clearly suffer.

By the way, I'm from Sherbrooke, QC and I'm very far from Mt Mansfield. But, 3 days ago, late in the night, with my little indoor antenna, I was able to get VPT-DT on UHF32 for a few minutes. I don't know if they were playing with the ERP because I'm clearly out of range and I can't get it anymore. By the way, I'm also able to get a lock on UHF18 from St-Johnsbury.

From those minutes, I analyse the stream with TS Reader and, at that time, the video bitrate for the HD channel was around 12.5 Mbps, which is quite low. The video bitrate for the SD channel was around 4 Mbps, which is above average. By comparison with WCFE-DT, this HD channel video bitrate was around 14 Mbps at the same time. Their SD channel was around 2.5 Mbps. So, for VPT-DT, the SD channel is better (for now) but the HD do suffer from the multiplexing.

Another thing for VPT-DT. They are using two full audio channel at 384 Kbps, for the HD channel and one for the SD channel. The HD should get 384 Kbps but do the SD need this ? I don't think so. When all the sub-channel will be active, this will use a lot af bitrate.

I hope the other HD station from VT will smartly limite the amount of sub-channel in their stream. I'm not sure about myself (I will need another little miracle) but you will know this pretty soon...

Kaphyr

Last night I hooked things up, did an auto scan, and saw real HD for the first time on my set. Amazing. Especially the Mountain Lakes PBS HD -- razor sharp. And VPT-HD not quite as good, but still light years from SD. For some reason, although VPT is east of me and Plattsburgh west, I didn't need to rotate the antenna at all. It was set for the best reception of VPT SD, and I just left it there.

Yes, I've noticed that about our stations down here. If I point at the station, I get a great signal in the low 90s but even if I rotate the antenna, I can also pick up the stations in 3 or 4 other locations with signals in high 60s & 70s. The picture looks just as clear at any of the locations.

This may be handy if you're trying to pick up stations from more than one location, since you might find a sweet spot that will get an acceptable signal for both. It doesn't always have to be a high signal reading as long as it locks and remains stable.

THats correct walt a user will notice no diff between a locked 70% signal and a locked 90% sig. Thats the beauty of 1s and 0s :).

What HD station numbers can we try to get from Canada (English lang.)?

How come, with this "new" technology(ATSC) they were'nt able to make it right? I mean c'mon, not even able to make 2 channels on one stream perfectly?(one HD, one SD). Either one or the other is affected by compression. That should'nt be a problem.
In L.A NBC remove their Weather channel from the stream because of that. I used to live there.
Can someone explain why they still want to get those sub-channels on the air? ABC and FOX are 720p, so it take less bandwith, but CBS, NBC and PBS are 1080i.



- With one active sub-channel, the bitrate for the HD channel will be lowered around 14-15 Mbps. This is still quite acceptable but a bit of "smoothing" effect will be use to smoothen the picture, just for limiting the amount of pixellisation. This is quite commun in the USA and the normal HD network stream is often in this range.
- With two active sub-channels, the bitrate for the HD channel will be lowered around 11-12 Mbps. In this case, the HD channel will lack a lot of detail.
- More than 2 sub-channels, this is suicidal for the quality of the HD Channel.

From those minutes, I analyse the stream with TS Reader and, at that time, the video bitrate for the HD channel was around 12.5 Mbps, which is quite low. The video bitrate for the SD channel was around 4 Mbps, which is above average. By comparison with WCFE-DT, this HD channel video bitrate was around 14 Mbps at the same time. Their SD channel was around 2.5 Mbps. So, for VPT-DT, the SD channel is better (for now) but the HD do suffer from the multiplexing.

Kaphyr

Can someone explain why they still want to get those sub-channels on the air?Local TV broadcasting has never been about content or quality; it's all about ad-revenue. The thinking is that more (sub-)channels = more revenue.

I remember being pretty disappointed years ago when they first announced particulars of the HDTV standard, saying that local broadcasters would have the option of utilizing the bandwidth to offer 1 HD broadcast or multiple SD broadcasts. IMHO, that was the NAB mucking up the works.

Here's a strange problem: with optical audio from HDTV's tuner to receiver, I only get sound on the digital channels. I think it's consistent, too: Digital/HD station = sound; analog = silent.

Would the TV's tuner only send audio from digital sources? Or...what?

I added earlier that I picked up a cheap Phillips antenna and was receiving a perfect signal. Well...after a few days of "testing" (watching the same PBS shows over and over) I did get start to get a lot digitial blocking and my signal decreased a bit. Anyway - I returned my "cheap" 19.99 Philips antenna and picked up a Phillips PHDTV3 for 49.99. This model is amplified and claimed to have "very low noise" creation. So far Problem solved. haven't had an ounce of a signal issues since I hooked it up yesterday. I tweaked the amplifier volume on the antenna until I had it set as low as possible but am still getting a strong signal. So far I haven't noticed any supplemental video noise from adding the amplified antenna.

I was looking at prior posts but didn't see anything off hand - anyone know if the rest of our channels that we've been waiting for (forever) will all be UHF?

I was looking at prior posts but didn't see anything off hand - anyone know if the rest of our channels that we've been waiting for (forever) will all be UHF?That's a FAQ. yipikyer, the originator of this thread, keeps post #1 up to date with that sort of info: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=2645242&&#post2645242

FYI - Channel 13 is VHF. All others are UHF.

Here's a strange problem: with optical audio from HDTV's tuner to receiver, I only get sound on the digital channels. I think it's consistent, too: Digital/HD station = sound; analog = silent.

Would the TV's tuner only send audio from digital sources? Or...what?I helped my in-laws get their (non-HD) digital cable-box hooked up to their HT receiver awhile back, and noticed it had the same behavior: no audio over digital output when tuned to an analog station. Fortunately, I discovered that their receiver "played nice" when you had both L/R analog as well as digital audio plugged into the same input (e.g. the TV input). It would use the digital audio whenever it was present, but it would "default" to the analog audio when there was no digital audio.

Don't know if this is typical, or only something you'll find in high-end equipment (their HT receiver is a very pricey Yamaha). Give it a try and tell us what you discover.

What HD station numbers can we try to get from Canada (English lang.)?

The only English station right now is CBMT-DT (CBC). Broadcasts on channel 20 and re-maps as 6.1.

As for the multicasting issue, I heard rumours that some of the Burlington stations plan on multicasting a 480i SD version of their channel. For me, that would be a total waste of bandwidth, since any ATSC tuner is able to downres an HD feed and chop off the sides for 4:3 sets! They will certainly hear from me if this is the case!

Tom, you mean RCA plugs for the analog? How retro!

Fox, auto tune didn't find 20. But I've got the two PBS stations, so I'm happy.

After asking about multitasking ans the fact that with only 2 streams, WETK is really compressed, here is his answer:

In keeping with our "Whare the News comes first" policy AND the research we
have done showing that weather is the post important thing our viewers care
about...we will be adding a full time weather channel shortly after the DTV
main channel gets on the air.
As for the siganl degradation...the human eye cant see the difference until
a station gets to 2 or 3 program streams. If we were to got to the full 6
program streams a digital signal can carry then the quality of all of them
would be about equal to the old analog signal. We dont plan to ever do
that!

Well, I guess I'd be OK with the weather channel as long as they keep it at a low bitrate. Radar maps and weather graphics aren't very hi-res anyway, so I don't think viewers will care if they keep it under 2Mbps.

As for the siganl degradation...the human eye cant see the differenceI hate gross generalizations like that. The right answer is "As for signal degradation...most people typically don't see the difference". The human eye has nothing to do with it. It's a "perception" thing which is a higher function of the brain. There are plenty of people out there that can see the difference.

I just hope that after all that wait, we won't be deceived!!!

WPTZ: As for the siganl degradation...the human eye cant see the difference until a station gets to 2 or 3 program streams. If we were to got to the full 6 program streams a digital signal can carry then the quality of all of them
would be about equal to the old analog signal. We dont plan to ever do
that!

"The human eye can't see the difference" ? What a ridiculous answer... The local cable company here in Sherbrooke broadcast NBCHD from Buffalo. This channel had 2 sub-channels before but they remove one and the video bitrate for the HD went from 12 to 14.5 Mbps, just before the Olympic Winter Game. The difference was stunning...

By the way, the common rule for a 8VSB broadcast is 6 SD channels or 1 HD. (1 SD is about 3 Mbps, 1 HD is about 18 Mbps). Not 1 HD and some SD. I think they bend the rule a little bit here. With only 6 SD channel, the quality would have been equal to analogic broadcasting or better.

The 6 for 1 rule came with the beginning of the digital cable. At this time, 1 analog channel of 6 Mhz could be replace with a QAM256 digital stream at 38.8 Mbps. The mpeg2 encoders were not as smart as today's and they were able to put 6 SD channels of 5-6 Mbps each. The quality was really good. With time, they lowered the quality, bit by bit, to 8 to 1, 10 to 1, 12 to 1 channel ratio in one QAM. Yes, the encoder are better and faster but the quality is also lower. 8 or 10 SD should be the limit but for the average client, 12 to 1 is OK.

OTA, they can't put that amount of data in a 6 Mhz stream. So 8VSB modulation is use and can transport up to 19.4 Mbps, exactly the half of a the digital cable QAM. If the cable company put 12 SD channels in 38.8 Mbps, the OTA stream can take about 6 SD, but for HD, a good cable company will only put 2 HD in one QAM. So, with the same reasoning, 1 HD would have been the best solution. 1 HD + 1 SD is OK but the quality will be a bit lower.

Kaphyr

Got a mail from WETK and they told me that they are at 15 mbps

I know this is unrelated but you all seem like smart people so I figure there's no hurt in asking...Is there a way to connect a DVR box to a computer to transfer recorded programs to my hard drive?

I'm looking for an attic antenna. Our attic is finished but I could hide an antenna in the kneewall storage areas. Is there one you guys would recommend? I was looking at a DB2 for its size but it is only UHF. Do I need a VHF? Any thoughts? Thanks, Roger
edit: I live in St. Albans

Yes, you need VHF to get ABC on channel 13. I would wait though to see if channel 13's signal will come in anyway with your UHF antenna, since they can sometimes pick up high-VHF if the signal is strong enough.

Got a mail from WETK and they told me that they are at 15 mbps

I confirm. I've got a few minutes of clear signal this morning and they changed a few thing.

A few days ago, the maximum bitrate limit for the SD channel was 15 Mbps, now, it's only 4 Mbps. The limit for the HD is 19.392 Mbps as before. This number is not equal to the real bitrate but it's a good indication of the priority of the channels in the stream.

So, this morning, the effective bitrate for VPT-HD was around 15 to 15.5 Mbps. The bitrate for the VPT-DT1 was around 2.5 to 3 Mbps. Nice change. :)

I just wonder what they will do with more than one sub-channel active at the same time...

Kaphyr

The signal of WETK seems to be weaker right now. It's cutting in and out on my indoor antenna setup.

Anyone else notice a change?

So will the indoor zenith super sensor pick up all the hd chnls. Does it cover ufh and Vhf or do I need to get two antenna's?

Tia
Russ

So will the indoor zenith super sensor pick up all the hd chnls. Does it cover ufh and Vhf or do I need to get two antenna's? Technically it's UHF-only. However, it picks up channel 3 (VHF) analog just fine due to my proximity to Mt. Mansfield. By contrast, channel 5 (VHF) analog, which is located in Plattsburgh, doesn't come in at all while channel 57 (UHF) analog, which is located even further away than channel 5, comes in great, as does channel 38 (channel 57's digital counterpart).

When the time comes, I'm reasonably confident it'll pick up channel 13, WVNY's chosen channel for HDTV broadcast. All the other HDTV stations from Mansfield will be UHF, so I'm not at all worried about them.

That's good. Wvny? Is that ABC? My biggest concerns are cbs and fox, but I would like to be able to get all of them. Also, once they are up and running, is it possible dish network will be offering them as well, like they do with the analog broadcast or will it be ota only?

That's good. Wvny? Is that ABC? My biggest concerns are cbs and fox, but I would like to be able to get all of them. Also, once they are up and running, is it possible dish network will be offering them as well, like they do with the analog broadcast or will it be ota only?WVNY is the Burlington ABC affiliate. However, the same company that owns WVNY also owns WFFF, the Fox affiliate, so I'd expect the timelines for both stations to be similar.

The FCC requires OTA broadcasters to cease broadcasting in SD in just a few years. I don't know if this requirement applies to satellite and/or cable TV providers. If I had to guess, given the size of our market, I'd say Dish and DirecTV won't be carrying our locals in HD until they absolutely have to.

Oh yeah, one more thing about channel 13...

They're going to be broadcasting HD at considerably less power than channel 3 "test case", so it's possible that WVNY will be difficult to pull in with a UHF-only antenna, despite our close proximity to the transmitter. There's just no way to know until they go on-air and you give it a try.

WVNY is the Burlington ABC affiliate. However, the same company that owns WVNY also owns WFFF, the Fox affiliate, so I'd expect the timelines for both stations to be similar.

The FCC requires OTA broadcasters to cease broadcasting in SD in just a few years. I don't know if this requirement applies to satellite and/or cable TV providers. If I had to guess, given the size of our market, I'd say Dish and DirecTV won't be carrying our locals in HD until they absolutely have to.

Oh yeah, one more thing about channel 13...

They're going to be broadcasting HD at considerably less power than channel 3, so it's possible that WVNY will be difficult to pull in with a UHF-only antenna, despite our close proximity to the transmitter. There's just no way to know until they go on-air and you give it a try.
I agree that we shouldn't expect the sats to carry our locals any time soon but wouldn't it be easy for them since the networks are broadcasting from the same location. Of course this is not knowing whats involved!

I agree that we shouldn't expect the sats to carry our locals any time soon but wouldn't it be easy for them since the networks are broadcasting from the same location. Of course this is not knowing whats involved!

One of the stations said it depended on when the satellite companies "build the uplink facilities".

Dish Network had originally included the Burlington DMA stations in a list of 50 DMAs they had hoped to have HD LiLs for by the end of this year. Now they seem to have recanted. I say "seem" because one rarely gets a straight answer out of Dish Network and when they "float" a possibility of something happening, it's not unusual to have it vaporize.

Direct TV on the other hand doesn't seem to have much of anything planned for HD until sometime in '07 and if their track record for analog LiLs in Vermont is any indication, they may not even have our digital locals before analog gets shut off.

So I guess bottom line is "who knows"?

If signal reception of the PBS digital station just launched from Mt. Mansfield is any indication of what we can expect from the commercial stations, it looks like there will be a significant portion of the DMA that may not receive the networks.

IMO Stations should NOT be allowed to claim viewers that can't get their signal. All stations care about is advertising revenue and their rates are usually based on the amount of viewers they have. Therefore it doesn't really matter to the station if you can receive their signal or not as long as you're included in their viewer base.

Based on that, there seems little incentive to have their signal carried by satellite unless satellite is willing to pay for it. If on the other hand, stations were only allowed to claim viewers that actually receive their signal, the whole situations changes and they'd probably be falling all over each other trying to get their signal carried.

There's also the issue of whether Dish Network will loose their license to carry any distants and whether that will prevent them from offering digital (HD) distants.

IMO when these stations are all up and at full power, anyone that still can't receive them OTA should call their congress reps. There needs to be alternate options for viewers to receive digital network signals when the local stations can't or won't get the signal to them.

FWIW, I seem to recall that there is an appeals process WRT to getting waivers from local stations. If you're unable to get a usable picture from a specific network affiliate, and they've rejected your waiver to allow you to get that programming from a distant local over satellite, then you do have further options - vis a vis a waiver appeal.

However, I don't have a clue as to the process involved. I don't know if you go through the local affiliate, the satellite provider, or the FCC.

IMHO, all locals have adopted the practice of denying all waiver requests, banking on the fact that most people will not go through the trouble of appealing.

OK,

According to antennaweb I have the following data:

yellow - uhf WFFF-DT 43 FOX BURLINGTON VT TBD 97° 13.7 43
yellow - uhf WCAX-DT 7.3 CBS BURLINGTON VT TBD 97° 13.6 53
yellow - uhf WETK-DT 33.1 PBS BURLINGTON VT TBD 97° 13.7 32
yellow - vhf WVNY-DT 13 ABC BURLINGTON VT 12-06 97° 13.6 13

So, I only need a basic antenna without preamp? Anyone have a recommendation? How are the Terk bar types? I can mount it under my eaves.

FWIW, I seem to recall that there is an appeals process WRT to getting waivers from local stations. If you're unable to get a usable picture from a specific network affiliate, and they've rejected your waiver to allow you to get that programming from a distant local over satellite, then you do have further options - vis a vis a waiver appeal.

However, I don't have a clue as to the process involved. I don't know if you go through the local affiliate, the satellite provider, or the FCC.

IMHO, all locals have adopted the practice of denying all waiver requests, banking on the fact that most people will not go through the trouble of appealing.

The trouble is most of the laws and rules were set up for analog tv signals and are only recently being updated or looked at in terms of digital signals.

It used to be that applying for a waiver was not even needed if one was predicted to be "unserved" by the adopted signal prediction method (Longley-Rice).

If one was not predicted as "unserved" by that method, yet knew they couldn't get the signal, they could "appeal" by demanding a signal test for which the station had to pay if it was confirmed there wasn't a Grade "B" or better signal with a stationary roof top antenna.

When the Dec '04 legislation passed "SHVERA", congress gave the FCC a year to investigate whether additional or alternate methods were needed for determining if people could receive a decent digital signal.

The FCC as it usually does, waited almost the full time and then sent a "report" to congress saying (among other things) that the exist L-R prediction method used for analog was basically fine for determining digital signal reception too.

The problem is the FCC says (they say it was part of the law that congress wrote) that if your satellite company offeres analog locals in your DMA, then signal tests can no longer be demanded.

The FCC is also on record as stating that "whether a person's satellite company offers analog locals or not has nothing do do with their eligibility for distant digitals. In fact. The law states that if your satellite company offers HD distants and also provides analog locals, the customer MUST subscribe to those analog locals in order to receive the digital distants.

So to put this in perspective (at least as I understand it):

In order to be eligible for digital distants it has to be determined that you are "unserved" for OTA analogs.

The method to determine that is the same old existing prediction method use for analog for years.

If that method is wrong (as if often was for analog and would even more likely be for digital), you apparently no longer have those same signal test options. IMO it was the threat of having to pay for individual signal tests that kept stations reasonable about granting waivers and this is the reason many no longer do.

OK,

According to antennaweb I have the following data:

yellow - uhf WFFF-DT 43 FOX BURLINGTON VT TBD 97° 13.7 43
yellow - uhf WCAX-DT 7.3 CBS BURLINGTON VT TBD 97° 13.6 53
yellow - uhf WETK-DT 33.1 PBS BURLINGTON VT TBD 97° 13.7 32
yellow - vhf WVNY-DT 13 ABC BURLINGTON VT 12-06 97° 13.6 13

So, I only need a basic antenna without preamp? Anyone have a recommendation? How are the Terk bar types? I can mount it under my eaves.

As I've posted before, the antennaweb web site is not very reliable in our area. I would not spend money on an antenna system based solely on their data. The best thing is to wait until these stations are at full power and then have a professional check your location with a signal meter and take it from there.

OK,

According to antennaweb I have the following data:

yellow - uhf WFFF-DT 43 FOX BURLINGTON VT TBD 97° 13.7 43
yellow - uhf WCAX-DT 7.3 CBS BURLINGTON VT TBD 97° 13.6 53
yellow - uhf WETK-DT 33.1 PBS BURLINGTON VT TBD 97° 13.7 32
yellow - vhf WVNY-DT 13 ABC BURLINGTON VT 12-06 97° 13.6 13

So, I only need a basic antenna without preamp? Anyone have a recommendation? How are the Terk bar types? I can mount it under my eaves.Huh, you must live in or near Essex town because I get almost the exact same bearing and distance numbers for my address.

That's good because, as I've reported before, I get excellent reception using the Zenith Silver Sensor, which is an unamplified, UHF-only, indoor antenna. I put it on top of my entertainment unit pointing straight at Mt. Mansfield (through an exterior wall). I get signal strength in the high 90's.

The CircuitCity in Williston had several of them on the shelf last week. I paid $25.

I've been emailing back and forth about HD, and I mentioned reading on another forum here that some PBS stations are cutting back on their HD programming because it costs so much more. The answer I got is that VPT is spending "several hundred thousand" on HD programming, but it's committed to HD for "the season." Which I found a little discouraging. One season and then we'll see...

I know VPT operates on a shoestring. I don't know if Mountain Lakes does but I'd bet most or all PBS stations are hurting for money. If so, HD may be a bit like splurging on a trinket when you can't afford food.

What's your guess for the long-term future of PBS HD in a market like ours?

Well, at least we have two PBS stations in the market, so we can be reasonably confident that at least one will keep the HD feed.

Maybe PBS will lower the pricing if they see stations bailing out.

Huh, you must live in or near Essex town because I get almost the exact same bearing and distance numbers for my address.

That's good because, as I've reported before, I get excellent reception using the Zenith Silver Sensor, which is an unamplified, UHF-only, indoor antenna. I put it on top of my entertainment unit pointing straight at Mt. Mansfield (through an exterior wall). I get signal strength in the high 90's.

The CircuitCity in Williston had several of them on the shelf last week. I paid $25.

Yep,

I am in Essex Jct. near Susie Wilson Road. I am heading to CC today at lunch to grab an antenna.

- Kuli

Are we still on for the 12th? Or am I being overly optimistic? I've got the Champagne Chillin' ....