So if I have Adelphia, and WFFF goes full power tonight as everyone has been saying, will I also receive it? Can I expect it to just show up in the guide?

Adelphia is not going to carry FOX HD until as least Comcast comes in if I understand correctly. THe FOX everyone is talking about is OTA (over the air)

I bought a map of Burlington/Chittenden County today here in Connecticut. Seeing that the peak of Mount Mansfield is to the east-northeast of Burlington (and on the right edge of the map by the county line), it got me wondering: Other than Plattsburgh, was there any other location in greater Burlington that could've been used for a transmitter site? I wouldn't know that area too well since the closest I've ever been to there is White River Junction (and that was back in 1992).


Mt. Mansfield was chosen because it is the highest in Vermont (at almost 4400 feet). It is more than twice as high as Mt. Terry (which WPTZ and WFFF are currently broadcasting from in analog), and has a direct line-of-sight to Montreal which has something like 10 times more viewers than there are in Burlington-Plattsburgh.

So if I have Adelphia, and WFFF goes full power tonight as everyone has been saying, will I also receive it? Can I expect it to just show up in the guide?


Wow... we went through this yesterday.

Whatever dude, I'm sorry I'm from a real state that has had HD for years now...I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone going to school up here where everything lags 2-3 years behind the real world. So feel free to mock me, because I'm going to keep asking when Adelphia is actually getting HD, because no matter how many times you'll say things like "wow we went through this," I still won't comprehend the fact that this state does not have Hi Definition. I know you're like, a real cable guy or whatever, which is surprising because at the rate things get done around here, it's hard to believe there are any cable guys in this state.

So yeah, anyone know when Adelphia is getting HD? Can't wait to watch the NBA opener in standard-def!

WFFF is in HD tonight. They fixed their problem.

Whatever dude, I'm sorry I'm from a real state that has had HD for years now...I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone going to school up here where everything lags 2-3 years behind the real world. So feel free to mock me, because I'm going to keep asking when Adelphia is actually getting HD, because no matter how many times you'll say things like "wow we went through this," I still won't comprehend the fact that this state does not have Hi Definition. I know you're like, a real cable guy or whatever, which is surprising because at the rate things get done around here, it's hard to believe there are any cable guys in this state.

So yeah, anyone know when Adelphia is getting HD? Can't wait to watch the NBA opener in standard-def!


Go back to where you came from, or learn to do your ouwn homework DUDE!!

Do you guys see the wholw FOX in blue or not? With or without a STB.

I only see the F and part of the O. No X. And that on all three of my STB

Why is that???

Lets not get overboard. It's only TV

Yeah, but now the station seems to have reduced power and I'm constantly falling below the threshold with my TV's tuner. :(

Darn, I had my D-VHS all ready to record this maiden broadcast and had to abort!

Now I can only watch it with my sat box's tuner.

Do you guys see the wholw FOX in blue or not? With or without a STB.

I only see the F and part of the O. No X. And that on all three of my STB

Why is that???


Not sure, I get blue FO> not FO>< (fox)

I plugged the computer and i GOT the F , the O and 3/4 of the X!!

What's up with that

Yes, the logo they are using is not in the "safe zone" and is getting cut-off due to overscan (I can see the full thing when in PIP mode).

I think this blue logo is the default one sent by Fox when the local station hasn't submitted a local one. If Fox could fix the size/location, I would much prefer it if WFFF would keep it instead of putting up a primitive local one like all the other affiliates are doing.

I would suggest sending your complaints about the overscan to the Fox Network and NOT Fox 44. I don't want them to put up the FOX 44 logo with the ring around it.

The question is, how much screen do i loose by this? If, with PIP. you see image in the X, that means i must loose some also to the left!!!

I'll try it on the projector tomorrow. Maybe all the data is there, is just the TV that cannot show it.

I still won't comprehend the fact that this state does not have Hi Definition.

Well, you see, Vermont is one of those lefty states who vote for socialists like Bernie who would rather go without TV or proper transportation than have a few towers on top of mountains or cut down a few trees for a highway project that has been stalled for years.

It's unfortunate but, hey, by the end of the week, this TV market will have finally caught up with the rest of the country.

What about CBS are you getting a crappy reception tonight as Fox cause for me it's really bad on both channels.

CBS is coming in better than Fox.

"The Unit" is looking sharp.

Whatever dude, I'm sorry I'm from a real state that has had HD for years now...I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone going to school up here where everything lags 2-3 years behind the real world. So feel free to mock me, because I'm going to keep asking when Adelphia is actually getting HD, because no matter how many times you'll say things like "wow we went through this," I still won't comprehend the fact that this state does not have Hi Definition. I know you're like, a real cable guy or whatever, which is surprising because at the rate things get done around here, it's hard to believe there are any cable guys in this state.

So yeah, anyone know when Adelphia is getting HD? Can't wait to watch the NBA opener in standard-def!

It's good to see that these forums don't lack for jackasses - my faith (or despair) in humanity is restored.

Grow up, get a life. Despite popular belief, you cannot make your genitals grow by bashing people on the internet. Since you watch so much TV, I'm sure you've got the number for Enzyte memorized by now - maybe you should give them a call, and leave the people here alone?

It's good to see that these forums don't lack for jackasses - my faith (or despair) in humanity is restored.

Grow up, get a life. Despite popular belief, you cannot make your genitals grow by bashing people on the internet. Since you watch so much TV, I'm sure you've got the number for Enzyte memorized by now - maybe you should give them a call, and leave the people here alone?

Listen, I have a father, but thanks for the lecture anyways. I'm glad a cynical internet post made out of utter frustration can keep your despair intact, it seems like you took it pretty seriously so at least it accomplished something.

As far as trying to make my genitals grow, I don't even know what you mean by that. (Somehow I'm the jackass?) I also don't know what Enzyte is, but maybe someone here got your attempts at humor.

Relax, I didn't mean anything, I just come from a different land with more technological advances. And after you read this, when you're responding with another message to "get a life," take a second and think about what you are doing at that moment yourself.

This is the last time I'll address this - if anyone wants to prolong it go ahead I guess. Otherwise let's just get back to wishful posts about no progress.

Listen, I have a father, but thanks for the lecture anyways. I'm glad a cynical internet post made out of utter frustration can keep your despair intact, it seems like you took it pretty seriously so at least it accomplished something.

As far as trying to make my genitals grow, I don't even know what you mean by that. (Somehow I'm the jackass?) I also don't know what Enzyte is, but maybe someone here got your attempts at humor.

Relax, I didn't mean anything, I just come from a different land with more technological advances. And after you read this, when you're responding with another message to "get a life," take a second and think about what you are doing at that moment yourself.

This is the last time I'll address this - if anyone wants to prolong it go ahead I guess. Otherwise let's just get back to wishful posts about no progress.


Here is the bottom line.. This thread is about helping one another, and you bashing me or the company I work for because you dont think we are as "technically advanced" as the "land" you come from, doesnt help anyone. Im sorry, but asking if this state has running water is just utter ignorance.

You are obviously here for school, so you must have some level of intellect.. I just told you yesterday that the HDs were not ready, and you turned around and asked basically the same question the next day. How does that make any sense at all? I couldnt have said it any clearer, but here we go again..

ABC, NBC, and the FOX HD CHANNELS (for Adelphia/Comcast) AREN'T READY YET. And they wont be tomorrow so dont ask.

I work for the cable company, dont you think I would know? I told you as soon as I hear something, I will post here... and I will. I want these channels too, so its not like you are the only one, but its just TV.

So please, if this is so frustrating, take your anger out on something/someone else, and not the people on this thread. And just a little insight.. You can bash me, the company I work for, and act like you have on this thread, but I can definitly promise you, its not going to make the process go any quicker.

I apologize for venting so much and coming off so harsh, I didn't mean to personally bash anyone. I just can't explain how heartbreaking it was to purchase a $1500 hdtv, move out of the dorms, purchase Adelphia, and only get the handful of HD channels we get. I pretty much watch sports 24/7, so HD is a crucial thing to have. I got more and more frustrated as tentative dates kept getting pushed back, as the baseball playoffs came and went, half the football season, and now the start of the basketball season. It almost makes me regret investing in the TV and the extra money each month. I'm sure all of you are in the same situation, and I'm sorry for letting my emotions and ignorance get the best of me. So yeah I'll keep my fingers crossed and my mouth shut.

I know Brattleboro is in the Boston/Worcester DMA but since it's in Vermont, I'm gonna ask here: Does their cable company carry any of the Boston/Worcester or Vermont Public Television stations in HD?

Still working on WVNY……..a huge chunk of ice crushed the transmission line. Just returned from Maine where we picked up replacement line. Not sure when we’re going to be able to get ‘vny on air. Thanks for your patience…..

Well, you see, Vermont is one of those lefty states who vote for socialists like Bernie who would rather go without TV or proper transportation than have a few towers on top of mountains or cut down a few trees for a highway project that has been stalled for years.

It's unfortunate but, hey, by the end of the week, this TV market will have finally caught up with the rest of the country.

It's also one of those states that people love to visit. Some love it so much they buy vacation homes here or even move here or maybe even send their kids to school here. Then the problems start because when they get here, the first thing many want to do is change something.

I apologize for venting so much and coming off so harsh, I didn't mean to personally bash anyone. I just can't explain how heartbreaking it was to purchase a $1500 hdtv, move out of the dorms, purchase Adelphia, and only get the handful of HD channels we get. I pretty much watch sports 24/7, so HD is a crucial thing to have. I got more and more frustrated as tentative dates kept getting pushed back, as the baseball playoffs came and went, half the football season, and now the start of the basketball season. It almost makes me regret investing in the TV and the extra money each month. I'm sure all of you are in the same situation, and I'm sorry for letting my emotions and ignorance get the best of me. So yeah I'll keep my fingers crossed and my mouth shut.
Hey kid, be glad you don't have Charter cable. They have said many times that they have NO plans to do any HD in this state. I don't know if it's all towns or what, but I know a lot of towns decide who the ONE cable provider is going to be for that town and other cable companies aren't allowed to come in and compete. The single biggest problem for television viewers in Vt is competition is kept at bay.

Go to http://antennaweb.org and plug in your address. It'll tell you what stations you might be able to receive, how far away they are, and in what direction. It's also produce a map if you click the link.

For me, I'm so close to Mt. Mansfield that picking up the signal is a no-brainer. However, WCFE took a little work. Here's what I did...

- I first plugged my antenna into my analog set and tuned it to channel 57.
- I started with the antenna pointing in rougly the direction of Plattsburgh, and then slowly rotated it back and forth until I got the clearest picture with the least amount of "ghosting".
- I then left the antenna where it was an plugged it into my HD receiver. Got 75% on the signal meter.
vttom-

your suggestions and advice really paid off - THANK YOU! http://antennaweb.org is an excellent resource: compass bearings (although true North would be better as declinations changes as magnetic North shifts around), map with details about what channels are where - great help.

So...I tuned in WCAX analog as best as I could and...hooray! Now have WCAX, WFFF, and VPT HD channels. I still wasn't getting a super strong signal (45 to 77), but was more on the upper end. It could be my sat receiver just doesn't show the true signal strength - it only shows 45, 63, 69, 77 and nothing in between. I don't have a hdtv with a built in tuner to try anything else and my hdtv projector doesn't have a tuner at all.

My next concern: I lost WCFE in the process as the antenna is VERY directional. Hmmm, what to do. My wife works as a producer there and I really should try to tune it in. I was picking it up with the old rabbit ears before going to the outside antenna. Could I do a reverse split on the coax in the house and add them (rabbit ears) or do you think I'll lose too much signal? WPTZ is also going to be in the opposite direction and will likely cause problems. WPTZ's analog is near perfect but it is VHF, not the UHF channel it will be when digital. What to do, what to do...

My next concern: I lost WCFE in the process as the antenna is VERY directional. Hmmm, what to do. My wife works as a producer there and I really should try to tune it in. I was picking it up with the old rabbit ears before going to the outside antenna. Could I do a reverse split on the coax in the house and add them (rabbit ears) or do you think I'll lose too much signal?I've never had to combine antennas, so I'm not sure of all the issues involved. However, if they are both highly-directional antennas, and pointing in different directions, then I think you're OK. Give it a try and tell us how it works out.

WPTZ is also going to be in the opposite direction and will likely cause problems. WPTZ's analog is near perfect but it is VHF, not the UHF channel it will be when digital. What to do, what to do...Oh yeah, antennaweb.org has the location for WPTZ-DT all wrong. WPTZ analog is on Mt. Terry. WPTZ-DT is located on top of Mt. Mansfield along with the others.

AntennaWeb and other sites for this purpose already have the magnetic declination figured in so that you can just use the compass settings. Actually, one site I went to had a default of 13 degrees and something so I changed it to 15 degrees 4' for my location.
As for combining antennas, I am using a UHF/VHF Combiner for my DB4 and a low-band VHF (2-6) antenna. I would guess there is a combiner for 2 VHF antennas and you could point one at each direction and combine them to a single coax. I wasn't able to find one (may not be called combiner) online, but they should be available from Dishnet installers as they join the output from two satellites to one coax.

ChasmGM;

I have the same problem. Upon turning my antenna to get the Mansfield broadcasts I was ~ 90 degrees away from WCFE...and lost it. No amount of fiddling seems to bring in both and so I am travelling down the same path (slowly) of obtaining a UHF antenna and then trying a combiner.

Radioshack is out of antennas over here and so I'm slowly formulating my UHF purchase...I hear Lowe's carries antennas but thats on the other side of the lake (from me!)

Good luck

ChasmGM;

I have the same problem. Upon turning my antenna to get the Mansfield broadcasts I was ~ 90 degrees away from WCFE...and lost it. No amount of fiddling seems to bring in both and so I am travelling down the same path (slowly) of obtaining a UHF antenna and then trying a combiner.

Radioshack is out of antennas over here and so I'm slowly formulating my UHF purchase...I hear Lowe's carries antennas but thats on the other side of the lake (from me!)

Good luck

Antennasdirect.com carries top rated UHF antennas. The DB2 and DB4 are multi-directional so they may resolve your problem. Orders arrive in about 3 days.

There called antenna joiners. I found some on www.warrenelectronics.com.

In cable, if you use a splitter backwards it acts as a "combiner" and puts both signal sources on the one lead coming out. Im not sure if it would work for this, but if all the frequencies are different and not running into one another (which they are), it should work for you. Dont quote me, but its the same principal, so it should be OK.

In cable, if you use a splitter backwards it acts as a "combiner" and puts both signal sources on the one lead coming out. Im not sure if it would work for this, but if all the frequencies are different and not running into one another (which they are), it should work for you. Dont quote me, but its the same principal, so it should be OK.

A VHF/UHF splitter/joiner may be all that you need. The Jontennas are channel specific and more expensive.

Guess what Boys and Girls.

WVNY-DT will be on the air today. I caught a test about 8 minutes ago.

Looked good from a coat hanger I had hooked to my receiver.

A large chunk of Ice fell off the tower a couple of days ago and destroyed the ice bridge protecting the transmission line. I t wiped out the line too.

I heard the GM and the Chief Engineer drove to Maine in the middle of the night to get a new piece of line for 13. They just brought the line up on a snow cat they swiped from someone. Guess the snow is pretty deep up there.

I guess they give a crap.

They guy told me they are buttoning up the tower and should be firing it up pretty quick. He better hurry up.

Great! Now I get to find out if, between my UHF and my low-band VHF antennas I can get channel 13. Hopefully it will be working when I get home tonight.

When all of the following are transmitting OTA and stable:

* WVNY-DT 13 (ABC)
* WPTZ-DT 14 (NBC)
* WETK-DT 32 VPT (PBS) on-air
* WFFF-DT 43 (Fox, the CW) on-air
* WCAX-DT 53 (CBS) on-air
* WCFE-DT 38 - Mountain Lake (PBS) on-air

Can someone post that in this thread? I will then start putting pressure on Videotron to get them to switch from Buffalo (and from Detroit for PBS) to the above.

That's what i do in post 1. Did'nt you copy/paste there?

When all of the following are transmitting OTA and stable:

* WVNY-DT 13 (ABC)
* WPTZ-DT 14 (NBC)
* WETK-DT 32 VPT (PBS) on-air
* WFFF-DT 43 (Fox, the CW) on-air
* WCAX-DT 53 (CBS) on-air
* WCFE-DT 38 - Mountain Lake (PBS) on-air

Can someone post that in this thread? I will then start putting pressure on Videotron to get them to switch from Buffalo (and from Detroit for PBS) to the above.

Received this mail concerning this afternoon testing onwvny:

We were testing it this afternoon and everything checked out. Wrapping up a few finishing touches and it will be on the air before we hit primetime tonight.

That's what i do in post 1. Did'nt you copy/paste there?

Yes, the call letters come from post one. I want to be advised when all these stations are transmitting in HD.

Received this mail concerning this afternoon testing onwvny:

We were testing it this afternoon and everything checked out. Wrapping up a few finishing touches and it will be on the air before we hit primetime tonight.

Didn't I just say that in my last post????

Wow this thread is turning into a must-read for me on a daily basis. You can almost cut the tension in here with a butter knife.

amazing, isn't!!! Can't beleive it my self.

When i started this thread more than 3 years ago, i did'nt tought that so close to the end it would turned out like that.

This is an informative forum, not an arena.

Thank you.

Even though I'm in a class right now I'm checking this thread every 10 minutes! :D

God bless Wi-Fi!

It's a little before 5pm. I'm getting ready to throw the switch on WVNY -DT.

Tune your sets. And let me know what it looks like (signal level) please.

It will be at full power from the start. 10kW VHF. Gotta go guys are climbing down the tower. Hope they get off the tower before I get impatient and fire it up early.
I know everyone has been waiting.
10-4

Wow. There's internet on Mt. Mansfield? :rolleyes:

Now I can't wait to get home and test my antennas.

WIFI BABY. I'm turning the transmitter on from my Blackberry. Want the URL

It's a little before 5pm. I'm getting ready to throw the switch on WVNY -DT.

Tune your sets. And let me know what it looks like (signal level) please.

It will be at full power from the start. 10kW VHF. Gotta go guys are climbing down the tower. Hope they get off the tower before I get impatient and fire it up early.
I know everyone has been waiting.
10-4


Does this mean it live? If so I cannot get it.?

It`s cold It`s dark and I can only climb sooo fast!!!! about 5:40!!!!

Is the signal up yet?

I have to call someone to go up in my own tower to help me make adjustments but want to confirm that there's a signal on channel 13 so I won't be trying to get something that's not yet there.

Yeah, I was going to say that it must be dark up there.

Since the skies are pretty clear today, can you see the Montreal skyline lit up in the NW sky?

5:36 PM It's on!

5:36 PM It's on!10-4
It's on, thanks buddy. get down the mountain safely

5:36 PM It's on!



Just did a scan and no luck here in Essex Junction. 22 analog sharp 22-dt no :(

Just did a scan and no luck here in Essex Junction. 22 analog sharp 22-dt no :(
It's channel 13 VHF. If you just have a UHF antenna, you won't get it. I'm not getting 13 with my low-band VHF either. Rats! I will have to pony up for a new antenna.

Grr, I hate VHF. :) I was hoping to catch ch13 in montreal with an indoor antenna, no luck. The meter in fusionHDTV flickers between 0dB and 5dB, with no lock obviously. (That's with RCA amplified rabbit ears)

For UHF, ch 32 is coming in at 31dB, 100% signal strength, and 43 is coming in at 22.9 dB, 85% signal strength.

This is in NDG, with a direct line of sight toward mt.mansfield from my window.

So, is ch12 messing it up?

For those of you not getting the signal.....sorry. You're UHF antenna isn't going to cut it. We'll be doing field tests soon.

For those of you receiving the signal......enjoy.

Have Phillips PHDTV3 antenna Suppose to be UHF/ VHF/ HDTV I cannot understand why it would not work. I got an email from Sara Carpenter @ VNY said "THE digital signal is VHF"

Are all the other channel UHF.

I am new to this so sorry if I sound slow.

Any of you folks getting VNY using an indoor antenna? If so, what would you suggest to get all the HD feeds..

NO i can't get the signal too, and i have a outdoor VHF/UHF antenna mounted on a 40 feet tower. does anyone from Montreal area getting it and with what gear.

Any of you folks getting VNY using an indoor antenna? If so, what would you suggest to get all the HD feeds..


NO VNY @ ALL !!! WOW? Yeah it is an indoor. Anyone with outdoor?

getting abc with a rooftop anntenna in shoreham, vt. scanned with my d* hr10-250 and 2 abc channels popped up at 22.1 and 22.2 with a signal strength of 88. my sony tv picked it up at 13.3 and 13.4 with no programming on 13.4 yet. hoping lost will be in hd tonight!

Waiting for my DB4 antenna, hopefully Saturday, i live in St. A and have a 3rd floor attic with south facing windows. I'm hoping hanging in window will work.

I gotta say ABC really is not worth all the effort. Spent my money got FOX that is worth it to me. I am not really into WIFE SWAP or Dancing with the Stars. I am however going to miss PENN STAT in HD

I gotta say ABC really is not worth all the effort. Spent my money got FOX that is worth it to me. I am not really into WIFE SWAP or Dancing with the Stars. I am however going to miss PENN STAT in HD

I guess that may be true for a non-Lost fan! :D

I guess that may be true for a non-Lost fan! :D


Liked LOST better when they called it GILLIGANS ISLAND :o

Jus havin fun no harm!!

Waiting for my DB4 antenna, hopefully Saturday, i live in St. A and have a 3rd floor attic with south facing windows. I'm hoping hanging in window will work.
Your DB4 is UHF only and will not receive digital ABC on channel 13. You will need a VHF antenna with a UHF/VHF combiner. I found a VHF 7-13 at www.summitvantana.com that should do the trick. It is a Winegard YA-6713 for $30 that is 35" long and should fit in your attic.

Your DB4 is UHF only and will not receive digital ABC on channel 13. You will need a VHF antenna with a UHF/VHF combiner. I found a VHF 7-13 at www.summitvantana.com that should do the trick. It is a Winegard YA-6713 for $30 that is 35" long and should fit in your attic.
I have read a couple of times , once in this forum, that a UHF may pick up higher VHF signals esp. at 13. Another article claimed to pick up 10 and up with high gain UHF. Anyways I'm just hoping to pick up anything other than NY PBS Hi def. I don't watch Lost and Dancing With the Stars either. :D

I have read a couple of times , once in this forum, that a UHF may pick up higher VHF signals esp. at 13. Another article claimed to pick up 10 and up with high gain UHF. Anyways I'm just hoping to pick up anything other than NY PBS Hi def. I don't watch Lost and Dancing With the Stars either. :D
I have a DB4 and a VHF chan 2-6, direct line of sight to the towers at 13.5 miles and I don't get squat on channel 13. I get every thing else crystal clear. I am ordering the antenna I mentioned for chan 7-13 and will use a joiner. It is the cheapest option since the other two antennas are brand new. I could replace them with a combo antenna, but it would cost a lot more as I would need to get chan 5 that is 55 miles away, and maybe a rotator as it is 24 degrees away from Mansfield. So the low-band VHF points at Plattsburgh, the UHF and high-band VHF at Mansfield and it will all look good with no rotator.

Did some research, antenna is suppose to pick up both U/V FH DT so is VNY @ extremely low power?

:mad: Damn it!!!

Got only a 10% with my UHF antenna in Longueuil. I had my dad try getting it with his combo antenna in St. Hubert but he got nothing.

Are they still on? I now get 0 instead of 10.

Damn it! I told WVNY immediately after they filed their change of channel request that it was such a STUPID idea to switch to channel 13! They are going to go from channel 22, which anyone can get with a perfect picture in Montreal with a tiny loop hooked up, to channel 13 which you'll need hundreds of dollars worth of antennas, pre-amps, traps, and filters to receive it!

THEY BETTER HURRY UP AND REQUEST A POST-TRANSITION ALLOCATION OF CHANNEL 33!

Can anyone who was getting it confirm that they are still getting it?

I'll be putting up a cut-to-channel 13 antenna tomorrow but I have to say that I am not pleased at all by the initial results.

A glimmer of hope for those who don't want a VHF antenna, I'm getting 13 WVNY with a CM4221, leaning against the far wall of my theater, which of course has no windows. :) I'm in the woods, behind a small hill, with NLOS to Mansfield. 3/33/44 all are coming in in the mid 80s on a Dish 942, 22/13 is mid 60s.

With my Blonder Tongue BTPDA-2 the readings in dbuv are(rounded to nearest whole number):

WCAX 45
WFFF 35
WCFE 26
WETK 40
WVNY 27

I took the readings with 10' solid copper core RG-6 and the balun that comes with the antenna, no amping of any kind. I'm in Newport Center, 05857, about 2.5 miles down Buzzell Rd, making me just about 41 miles from the towers, through my 30 acre wood lot and a couple of hills.

I had planned on putting the antenna up last weekend, but when I'm not getting paid, things tend to not get done so quickly. :o Now I'll have a shipment of 4228s tomorrow, so I'll probably put one of those, a pre-amp, a rotor and see if I can get something Canadian, up this weekend or maybe have an employee do it or more likely things will just stay the way they are. ;)

So they (wvny) are up now at 8:00pm?

Apparently in the middle of my typing, they went out. :(

dt33, barnie:

You guys got it. Are they ON or OFF the air right now???

If i have good luck with my DB4 pointing south I'll have to consider getting something to point north. Being in St. Albans I have a clean shot to Montreal. I get better reception of Montreal stations even with antenna pointing south.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4221.html

With a $700 sat receiver?

Any of you folks getting VNY using an indoor antenna? If so, what would you suggest to get all the HD feeds..
Cableguy403, I'm using the Philips Silver Sensor (not amplified) in the attic, I'm getting around 74% (less than the other MM DT stations) but the Dancing with the Stars show is the best picture I've seen so far altought I don't really care for it, are they in full power?

On my way home from the transmitter, I stopped at Radio Shack on Shelburne Rd. and with a simple pair of rabbit ears I was able to pick-up channel 13 crystal clear.

So they're still on?

Thanks Barnie, I will pick one up and try it. I am in an apartment building townhouse, so I can try it on the second floor.

10-4, you are getting the VNY-HD feed with rabbit ears? Where are you?

So they're still on?
Yes,
Sorry I did not respond earlier, I tought I was an hour late. The time on the post is off by an hour

Got VNY @ 77% steady... been scanning for 3 hrs now every 15 min. was there on the last scan and has been strong since.

Thanks Barnie, I will pick one up and try it. I am in an apartment building townhouse, so I can try it on the second floor.

10-4, you are getting the VNY-HD feed with rabbit ears? Where are you?
Cableguy, do you have an attic? If so, you should try it.
For me it meant a huge difference going from the third floor to the attic for WCAX (0% vs 84%).
For you experts, do you think snow will affect the reception from my attic? theoritically not, but I have thrown theory out the window when it comes to TV reception

Good luck

I have the radioshack combined VHF/UHF $40 special in my attic at ~ 10 miles LOS in Jericho and I have 81% for VNY..no amplifiers RG6 about 20" of run. For reference Fox/CBS ~67% and PBS at 87%...

So when is NBC coming up? A few days ago it was a strong signal w/o any broadcast; now nothing.

Thanks all..including 10-4 for the mountain updates...you hardy soul!

When I last checked, I was getting WVNY-DT loud and clear using just my Zenith Silver Sensor indoor UHF antenna. All the DT stations (including 'VNY) from Mansfield get between 96% and 100% on the signal meter of my DishNetwork ViP622.

I think there're a couple houses up for sale in my neighborhood...

I've got an el-cheapo combo VHF rabbit ears / UHF loop antenna from RCA. With the amp off, I get WVNY this evening at 80+ signal strength in Williston (not great LOS to Mansfield, I'm on a southwestern facing slope). It looks great! Looking forward to Lost tonight (just starting...)

I can also get WETK with a 65 or so signal and it looks great. Unfortuantely I haven't been able to get WFFF yet...

I have Adelphia/Comcast so haven't invested in any real antenna solutions to try to get WFFF or WPTZ once they're online... if the Comcast transition delays them putting these channels up quickly, I'll probably go buy a real antenna.

Does anyone know if WFFF is also broadcasting CW shows (i.e. Smallville) in HD as well?

Tom,
Is the Zenith Silver Sensor UHF only? I have the Phillips Silver Sensor from CC and it has UHF/VHF?
I followed one of your earlier post and bought mine, not remembering the brand just remembering the name, but so far it has overachieved

10-4, any thoughts on why your "full power" signal is not reaching Montreal (or anyone farther than Shelburne or Jericho)?

I'll be putting up my channel 13 antenna tomorrow (strongest one designed for CATV headends) and if I still can't get it, I hope to see an application filed soon for WVNY to move to channel 33 post-transition, since you have already relinquished post-transition rights to channel 22 to WCAX.

I hope WVNY will sue the former owners or those consultants that came up with this stupid idea to move to channel 13 for all of this!

hey everyone,
I've been following for a longtime now and I was wondering, since I'm kinda slow if someone could sum up exactly which channels/sub-channels everything is on. wvny is the first thing that my "auto-scan" has found.
which brings me to my second question...
if wvny is on 13 now, how come I'm getting Lost in hd on 13.3 AND 22.1?

Tom,
Is the Zenith Silver Sensor UHF only? I have the Phillips Silver Sensor from CC and it has UHF/VHF?
I followed one of your earlier post and bought mine, not remembering the brand just remembering the name, but so far it has overachievedHere's a link to the exact product:

http://www.zenith.com/sub_prod/product_Display.asp?cat=&id=131

In the notes section it says you'll need an additional VHF antenna for channels 1-13. Fortunately, as it turns out, that's not necessary for me.

10-4, any thoughts on why your "full power" signal is not reaching Montreal (or anyone farther than Shelburne or Jericho)?

I'll be putting up my channel 13 antenna tomorrow (strongest one designed for CATV headends) and if I still can't get it, I hope to see an application filed soon for WVNY to move to channel 33 post-transition, since you have already relinquished post-transition rights to channel 22 to WCAX.

I hope WVNY will sue the former owners or those consultants that came up with this stupid idea to move to channel 13 for all of this!

FOXFAN

FYI The original allocation for 22 was DTV 16. The pattern was bad as was the power level. Channel 13 was all there was to allow us to reach our vewers. As a matter of fact the pattern for 13 10kW gains coverage over 22 1000kW. As for signal strength 10kW on 13 is plenty. We had to do some difficult design just to protect Canadian stations due to the distance 13 would travel. When you get your antenna I think you will find that 13 will do just fine where you are. Yes, it is a VHF but let us not forget that everyone was quite happy with WCAX and WPTZ for the last 40+ years and now VHF is a bad thing?????? Please let me know how it goes with the new antenna. Lots of $$ and effort was spent to get this signal to everyone.
FYI I am getting it at my house with stronger signal than WCAX and I am using a cheapo "UHF" double bowtie in my kitchen at 25 miles.
God luck to you all.

hey everyone,
I've been following for a longtime now and I was wondering, since I'm kinda slow if someone could sum up exactly which channels/sub-channels everything is on. wvny is the first thing that my "auto-scan" has found.
which brings me to my second question...
if wvny is on 13 now, how come I'm getting Lost in hd on 13.3 AND 22.1?

Check the local commercials. Might be getting 2 DTV stations. The otehr might be watertown NY. Where are you???

well it's a bad thing cause it doesn't reach Montreal and I'm not spending on another antenna i have already 3. Too bad i will spend my time watching FOX, NBC, and CBC in HD.

Thanks ABC

I'm in south burlington.
I thought about that but the commercials seem to be the same. and only 22.1 displays call letters "wvny" when I tune to it.
maybe everyone should check 22.1 before they go buy another antenna for 13...

I'm in south burlington.
I thought about that but the commercials seem to be the same. and only 22.1 displays call letters "wvny" when I tune to it.
maybe everyone should check 22.1 before they go buy another antenna for 13...

13 VHF is the channel for ABC HD in Burlington. 22.1 is what 13 is called for your TV set. The PSIP that is in the DTV stream allows your set to line up the DTV channels just above the analog so that they are grouped together.

Over

FYI The original allocation for 22 was DTV 16. The pattern was bad as was the power level. Channel 13 was all there was to allow us to reach our vewers. As a matter of fact the pattern for 13 10kW gains coverage over 22 1000kW. As for signal strength 10kW on 13 is plenty. We had to do some difficult design just to protect Canadian stations due to the distance 13 would travel. When you get your antenna I think you will find that 13 will do just fine where you are. Yes, it is a VHF but let us not forget that everyone was quite happy with WCAX and WPTZ for the last 40+ years and now VHF is a bad thing?????? Please let me know how it goes with the new antenna. Lots of $$ and effort was spent to get this signal to everyone.
FYI I am getting it at my house with stronger signal than WCAX and I am using a cheapo "UHF" double bowtie in my kitchen at 25 miles.
God luck to you all.

Not everyone was happy with WCAX and WPTZ on VHF. We can't receive those ones reliably in Montreal either. Only 22, 33, 44, and 57 are coming in clearly. I said that to WVNY years ago but they still insisted that we'll be receiving channel 13 better than any of the others. If that is the case, why am I getting (with a deep fringe VHF-UHF combo antenna) UHF digital stations like 32 and 53 at 95% while I get NOTHING on channel 13? Coverage contours on paper and in practice are two different things, as you'll be finding out in your field tests. Sorry if I sound harsh but that's the reality of it.

I know the original allocation was 16 (which conflicts with an analog station in Trois-Rivieres just like channel 13), but since WETK has elected to stay on 32, a 1000kw full power allocation on channel 33 will be freed up. I hope WVNY will take advantage of this opportunity once it realizes through field tests how unreliable their channel 13 signal is...

I understand how costly this would be, but as I have said, sue DuTreil, Lundin & Rackley for the costs of changing to a new channel!

Knowing all the work that was put in this, I wish I could be more positive (as I have been with WCFE, WETK, WCAX, and WFFF when they went on the air), but the facts speak for themselves. WVNY will lose 90% of its viewers in February 2009!

oooh, sorry, I warned that I was slow...
thanks for clearing that up.

Not everyone was happy with WCAX and WPTZ on VHF. We can't receive those ones reliably in Montreal either. Only 22, 33, 44, and 57 are coming in clearly. I said that to WVNY years ago but they still insisted that we'll be receiving channel 13 better than any of the others. If that is the case, why am I getting (with a deep fringe VHF-UHF combo antenna) UHF digital stations like 32 and 53 at 95% while I get NOTHING on channel 13? Coverage contours on paper and in practice are two different things, as you'll be finding out in your field tests. Sorry if I sound harsh but that's the reality of it.

I know the original allocation was 16 (which conflicts with an analog station in Trois-Rivieres just like channel 13), but since WETK has elected to stay on 32, a 1000kw full power allocation on channel 33 will be freed up. I hope WVNY will take advantage of this opportunity once it realizes through field tests how unreliable their channel 13 signal is...

I understand how costly this would be, but as I have said, sue DuTreil, Lundin & Rackley for the costs of changing to a new channel!

Knowing all the work that was put in this, I wish I could be more positive (as I have been with WCFE, WETK, WCAX, and WFFF when they went on the air), but the facts speak for themselves. WVNY will lose 90% of its viewers in February 2009!

Oh, OK.

Let's wait and see what everyone else thinks of channel 13 before we go to the judge. We might need some folks to come to the rescue with reports of poor signal. The judge might want us to take some readings in the far field too. As I said earlier the ch13 is doing quite well so far against the ch53 at 500+kW.

Oh, OK.

Let's wait and see what everyone else thinks of channel 13 before we go to the judge. We might need some folks to come to the rescue with reports of poor signal. The judge might want us to take some readings in the far field too. As I said earlier the ch13 is doing quite well so far against the ch53 at 500+kW.


Best of luck.

In the fifties and sixties, most people in my neighbourhood in West End Montreal had Channel 3/5 Yagi specials on 20-foot masts, along with tuneable Ch 2./6 traps at the back of their TVs. When colour TV became prevalent in the late sixties and seventies, people abandoned their OTA setups in droves in favour of cable TV. Why -- because the 3/5 specials would pull in an acceptable 2/6/10/12 signal off angle in black and white, but in colour, it was unwatchable.

When WVNY first came on the air in 1968, it and channel 33 were the only Vermont stations that were easily watchable on a UHF TV with just a loop antenna. The same TV with its VHF rabbit ears could barely bring in 3 or 5, and that usually depended on playing with coat hangers and aluminum foil :rolleyes: .

The reality is that the US/Canada Broadcast treaty protects each country's TV signals only as far our common border. WVNY-DT's signal on ch.13 is not protected in Canada, but WVNY has to protect CKTM in Trois Rivieres,and perhaps CJOH in Ottawa within Canada. And while 10kW on channel 13 broadcasting in ATSC will undoubtedly provide acceptable or even excellent reception in Vermont, I have serious doubts about how easily it can be received in Montreal with an NTSC N-1 adjacent (CFCF-TV ch12) at 325 kW. I'm sure it can be done in some cases, and I eagerly await foxfan's results with his ch. 13 special.

The sky is not falling -- the vast majority of Montrealers who want to watch WVNY will continue to do so on Videotron. However, it is true WVNY will probably lose a few Montreal viewers who until now watched ch. 22 on second TVs, or didn't subscribe to cable, MMDS (look tv), or satellite. It's just unfortunate for those who chose to go the OTA-only route, and now find easy-to-receive signals only on the other five American stations.

From my point of view in Ottawa, WVNY's choice of ch 13 means that I will NEVER be able to receive any Mt Mansfield stations here, even by Tropo skip in the summer, since every single post-2009 allocation is used locally for an active NTSC or ATSC channel. (13-CJOH, 14 CJMT, 22 CBOFT-DT, 32 CITS, 43 CHRO) [WVNY-22 is often viewable by tropo here in the summer]. I've just learned to live with it. :(
It also means I can't get too excited about Montrealers only being able to easily get five out of six stations, where here we're lucky to get PBS, CBS, and ABC over the air, and usually it's just PBS.

TVlurker
ex-Montrealer lurking from Ottawa

Not to say "I told you so", but if you look at the first posts in this thread, you'll see that I predicted this.

I attached a photo of the antenna I'll be installing at my UHF-only location (it was actually installed before but didn't put it back since my tower collapsed last winter) and will post the results ASAP.

Even if I do manage to receive it, it's still a shame that anyone who wants to continue receiving ABC has to buy an $80 (this copper one was actually worth much more) antenna. I still don't know what I'll have to do at my other house with the combo antenna.

TV Lurker: Yes, WVNY will continue to be available on Videotron, but the whole reason I was supporting OTA digital in this area was so that we would finally be able to get all our U.S. networks WITHOUT the disgraceful simultaneous signal substitution that cable companies in Canada are required to perform. OTA digital was American broadcasters' best weapon to stick it to the useless bastards at CTV and Global.

That reminds me of something. Anyone know what date the Superbowl will be in February 2009? That's the year ABC will get it, and OTA viewers will be mad as hell if it airs after the analog shut-down and they can no longer get ABC...

I got nothing on my end in Colchester for WVNY. Can't get WFFF so I guess it isn't a surprise. Off to Radio Shack to find a better antenna I guess.

My WVNY results:
Greenfield Park, QC
I get it on my channel 13 only antenna. About 59%. But get nothing on my combo antenna(about 20% - not enough to lock, and that with a CM7777 pre-amp).
Both are about 30 feet in the air with clear line of sight.

It's too bad that ABC went from 1000kW to 10.

Oh, OK.

Let's wait and see what everyone else thinks of channel 13 before we go to the judge. We might need some folks to come to the rescue with reports of poor signal. The judge might want us to take some readings in the far field too. As I said earlier the ch13 is doing quite well so far against the ch53 at 500+kW.

Any chance WVNY will ever put a sister station on Mt Ascutney to cover this side of Vt + NH ? Nobody gets the Burlington stations over here unless they happen to live on the West side of a hill.

We do however get a great signal for WNNE-DT which is WPTZ's sister station. Right now NBC is getting all our business. :D

What would be great for those who can get WFFF but not WVNY, is to put the WVNY signal on 44.2 I understand it's low res, but at least they could continue to see it.
Better than nothing

FYI I am getting it at my house with stronger signal than WCAX and I am using a cheapo "UHF" double bowtie in my kitchen at 25 miles.
Good luck to you all.


I too am using a UHF Double Bowtie ($24) and a Pre amp ($50) both in my Attic in Milton and am getting channel 13 at about 86%, the other UHF channel I am getting at about 94% but all are coming in nicely with no lag. I'm really happy with my set up in the attic, despite warning that putting an antenna in the attic was bad.

Does any know where I can get a digital to analog converter box for my extra tv sets that are analog.

was able to manual record lost and the nine in hd last night with my d*hr10-250 came out nice and clear, i am still having trouble with fox though though signal comes and goes...

Are you receiving WVNY now Yipikyer?

was able to manual record lost and the nine in hd last night with my d*hr10-250 came out nice and clear, i am still having trouble with fox though though signal comes and goes...
Fox-HD was off the air for a while last night shortly after WVNY came online.
I continue to be amazed by the few who say they have a UHF only antenna and are receiving channel 13. My DB4 should be overkill at 13.5 miles from the towers and I am not getting 13 at all. A high-band VHF antenna is on order.

That reminds me of something: Anyone know what date the Superbowl will be in February 2009? That's the year ABC will get it, and OTA viewers will be mad as hell if it airs after the analog shut-down and they can no longer get ABC...

Super Bowl XLIII will be on Sunday, February 1, 2009, a mere 16 days before the FCC-mandated analog cutoff date. The game will not be airing on ABC as they're not part of the current television deal. I believe NBC has that one.

Cableguy, do you have an attic? If so, you should try it.
For me it meant a huge difference going from the third floor to the attic for WCAX (0% vs 84%).Hmmm... My experience was quite the opposite. For a long time, I had a DIY square-loop antenna in the peak of my garage roof, and was perfectly happy with the analog reception. Naturally, that's the first place I tried the Silver sensor. I was disapppointed to find I got unusable signal levels there.

When I relocated it indoors on top of my entertainment unit (1st floor), it maxed out the signal meter on my receiver. Granted, the cable run in this location is a LOT shorter, so that's probably a large contributing factor.

For you experts, do you think snow will affect the reception from my attic? theoritically not, but I have thrown theory out the window when it comes to TV reception

Good luckAgain, refering back to my garage antenna, I never noticed any difference in the signal quality during the winter vs. summer.

... I have the Phillips Silver Sensor from CC ... so far it has overachievedI whole-heartedly agree, not so much because of the reception I'm getting from Mt. Mansfield, but because of the fact that I get a 76% signal from WCFE-DT (~40miles away) when I point it West.

Bummer. Couldn't get a solid signal from WVNY-DT last night from my home in NY (between Peru and Keeseville). Tried multiple times and the signal was just too weak. My receiver found the channel, but couldn't maintain a solid picture. Have a VHF/UHF antenna on top of the roof (30'-40'up) and pointed at Mansfield. WFFF-DT also seemed to be weaker last night as the picture got some pixelation at times. Checked my antenna and it didn't move at all. I'm 32.7 miles from the tower according to antennaweb.org and mostly just the pond (Lake Champlain) between us. I suppose I could try a stronger pre-amp (using just a 10db pre-amp now) and see if that works. WCAX-DT was just as strong as usual (peaked at 77% - but consistent at around 60).

Anyone think I have a chance with a stronger pre-amp?

Anyone else in NY getting results? Better or worse?

I continue to be amazed by the few who say they have a UHF only antenna and are receiving channel 13. My DB4 should be overkill at 13.5 miles from the towers and I am not getting 13 at all. A high-band VHF antenna is on order.

I'm using a DB2 on my roof in Richmond - 12 miles away - and getting a decent picture on 13 (22.1) - if I stand on my roof I can actually see the very top of mansfield, though, so that may help.

Maybe you're right about the overkill - is it possible the signal is too strong for your tuner? I don't understand the physics, but I've read that that's possible.

I'm using a DB2 on my roof in Richmond - 12 miles away - and getting a decent picture on 13 (22.1) - if I stand on my roof I can actually see the very top of mansfield, though, so that may help.

Maybe you're right about the overkill - is it possible the signal is too strong for your tuner? I don't understand the physics, but I've read that that's possible.
Is the DB2 the only antenna you have connected? If my DB4 provided too strong a signal, it would have certainly shown up with WCAX. I get 78% on the stations I'm getting.

Fox-HD was off the air for a while last night shortly after WVNY came online.
I continue to be amazed by the few who say they have a UHF only antenna and are receiving channel 13. My DB4 should be overkill at 13.5 miles from the towers and I am not getting 13 at all. A high-band VHF antenna is on order.

If you want to use an 8-bay bowtie to get channel 13, I think you need to refer to the excellent hdtvprimer d o t com website. I can't post the U R L here, but follow these links from the main page : "erecting an antenna" , and the "Comparing some commercially available antennas" . scroll down the page for "Using a UHF antenna for VHF":

Using a UHF antenna for VHF

Some UHF antennas are advertised as working for VHF also. As the following net gain graph shows, there is not much truth in that. For channels 7-13, the MegaWave and the Winegard PR-8800 perform about as well as rabbit ears. The Square Shooter is terrible for all VHF channels. All of these antennas are useless for channels 2-6.

The surprise here is the Channel Master 4228, which has a lot of gain for VHF-high, especially channels 9-13. What makes it different is the screen that is continuous across all 8 dipoles. Other 8-bays, like the 8800 and the DB-8, have a reflector that is not continuous across the right and left halves, and thus they have no useful gain for VHF.

I didn't paste the frequency reponse graph, but you can see it at the link I provided above. One interesting advantage for this market is that the CM4228 shows a sharp null in the middle of channel 12 -- not sure if this is enough, but it might help.



TVlurker

:mad: DAMN IT!

Installed my J105-13 (an MATV antenna retailing at $300), raised my mast, and got nothing higher than around 40! No constant lock!

If someone on south shore of Montreal with a $300 antenna designed specifically for channel 13 can't receive it, how the hell can?

Is the DB2 the only antenna you have connected? If my DB4 provided too strong a signal, it would have certainly shown up with WCAX. I get 78% on the stations I'm getting.

Yes, DB2, unamplified, about 50 feet of cable direct to the TV. The built-in tuner says 70% if I get any signal at all, so I don't trust that number - I just know it's working because of the pretty pictures.

I do have a big hill directly behind my house - I suppose with all the rain recently that could be working as a huge reflector... seems a bit far-fetched.

Here's my antenna setup.

Any chance of someone in the Northfield area getting any reception? kind of in the mountains...obvously no DLOS
thanks--new to this OTA stuff.
Juc

:mad: DAMN IT!

Installed my J105-13 (an MATV antenna retailing at $300), raised my mast, and got nothing higher than around 40! No constant lock!

If someone on south shore of Montreal with a $300 antenna designed specifically for channel 13 can't receive it, how the hell can?

Bummer.

It seems from your antenna setup that you're combining both antennas into one feed line. You may be experiencing some loss there. Could you try just feeding the one?

The other thing to try is some kind of channel 12 notch filter or trap. You really need to desensitize the receiver's AGC to any energy coming from channel 12. Not sure how easy those things are to come by these days. Perhaps some kind of homemade stub filter?

If you haven't already, read up on the antenna pages at hdtvprimer [d o t ] com. There may be some helpful hints there.

Good Luck.

The long term answer may be either finding a way to increase the transmitter power on ch 13, or making do with putting a WVNY-SD signal on a WFFF-DT subchannel.
I think WVNY-TV 22 will have had a good 40.5-year free ride for its analog TV access to the Montreal market when it closes on Feb 9 2009. Now it's WCAX's turn...

By the way, keeping its channel 16 allocation would have been even worse, given that CIVM-17 is quite a blowtorch, and some common UHF antennas seem to have a notch near channel 16!

TVLurker

Anyone know where I can buy a Channel Master 777x pre-amp in the Plattsburgh/Burlington area? I could drive down this weekend to buy one and try it out on my setup. I would also like to buy a CM 4228 antenna to have to mount on my roof next summer.

Here's my antenna setup.
Your setup is similar to mine, but I will end up with 3 antennas once the high-band VHF arrives. Of course, I am a lot closer at 13.5 miles. I currently have a DB4 UHF and a low-band VHF. The good part is that I won't require a rotator as the 3 antennas will each point at the desired transmitter.

Any chance of someone in the Northfield area getting any reception? kind of in the mountains...obvously no DLOS
thanks--new to this OTA stuff.
Juc
Go to antennaweb.org and see what they say.

www.summitsource.com has a large selection of Winegard, Channel Master and other antennas, plus filters, traps, combiners, joiners, etc.
www.antennasdirect.com is a good source for their own brand and some accesories.

Anyone know where I can buy a Channel Master 777x pre-amp in the Plattsburgh/Burlington area?

The Channel Master website has links to distributors, although Blodgett's supply (in Williston VT) doesn't carry their stuff anymore. Sounds like you could try Lowe's, Ace, or True Value - but I'd call the local stores to see if you're in luck.

You'll probably end up doing what I did, driving + calling all over and then ordering online. Skip that hassle and get two-day shipping with the money you save on gas. Pick a place with a decent return policy if you're not sure you want to keep the gear - or better yet, mention it here, I bet someone else semi-nearby will have a need for it.

Hi people.
I'm in south shore of Mtl (kind of), in St-Jean sur Richelieu. I can get WVNY channel 13 pretty good with a cheap outdoor uhf/vhf antenna. The antenna is only about 10 feet from the ground. I can pull CBS, FOX, PBS, SRC. If I want ABC and CBC I have to move the antenna and then no more CBS FOX and PBS. So for channel 13 I'll need another antenna. Mine is uhf/vhf but I have to move it to get channel 13 which is a pain. I've bought the antenna on ebay for cheap. It's fairly good but I'm thinking of buying a different antenna to get ABC as well, at the same time. You get what you pay for, but like I said, it does the job. Kind of.
My dishnetwork/expressvu 942 receiver gets about 70% on all channels, including 13 if I move the antenna.
So people from south shore of Mtl, I don't know, maybe you need to move your antennas. I don't have a clue. I'm only 15-20 mins from Brossard. It shouldn't make a big difference from Brossard.
And I agree with a different poster from earlier, I was watching Dancing with the stars on ABC last night and it was the best high def picture I saw on my TV so far.

The long term answer may be either finding a way to increase the transmitter power on ch 13, or making do with putting a WVNY-SD signal on a WFFF-DT subchannel.
I think WVNY-TV 22 will have had a good 40.5-year free ride for its analog TV access to the Montreal market when it closes on Feb 9 2009. Now it's WCAX's turn...

By the way, keeping its channel 16 allocation would have been even worse, given that CIVM-17 is quite a blowtorch, and some common UHF antennas seem to have a notch near channel 16!

TVLurker

Turning up power will be impossible since they are already too close to Trois-Rivières or Ottawa, which certainly will not give up channel 13 without a fight.

They have to change to a UHF channel that will be freed up post-transition, either to channel 33 with a directional antenna supressing their signal towards Concord, NH, or channel 44, supressing signal towards Portland, ME.

Hi people.
I'm in south shore of Mtl (kind of), in St-Jean sur Richelieu. I can get WVNY channel 13 pretty good with a cheap outdoor uhf/vhf antenna. The antenna is only about 10 feet from the ground. I can pull CBS, FOX, PBS, SRC. If I want ABC and CBC I have to move the antenna and then no more CBS FOX and PBS. So for channel 13 I'll need another antenna. Mine is uhf/vhf but I have to move it to get channel 13 which is a pain. I've bought the antenna on ebay for cheap. It's fairly good but I'm thinking of buying a different antenna to get ABC as well, at the same time. You get what you pay for, but like I said, it does the job. Kind of.
My dishnetwork/expressvu 942 receiver gets about 70% on all channels, including 13 if I move the antenna.
So people from south shore of Mtl, I don't know, maybe you need to move your antennas. I don't have a clue. I'm only 15-20 mins from Brossard. It shouldn't make a big difference from Brossard.
And I agree with a different poster from earlier, I was watching Dancing with the stars on ABC last night and it was the best high def picture I saw on my TV so far.

See. Even someone in St. Jean (which gets a Grade A signal from U.S. stations) is having trouble getting it!

Turning up power will be impossible since they are already too close to Trois-Rivières or Ottawa, which certainly will not give up channel 13 without a fight.

They have to change to a UHF channel that will be freed up post-transition, either to channel 33 with a directional antenna supressing their signal towards Concord, NH, or channel 44, supressing signal towards Portland, ME.

I haven't been able to successfully reverse-engineer the FCC's decision process with respect to which post-transition channel reversions they allow, and which ones they don't. However, given that Industry Canada would have to get involved in any new border-area allocations, I can't imagine IC would be favourably disposed to agreeing to the increase of WVNY's reach into Canada. WVNY would have to come up with some very strong arguments based on reception conditions in Vermont or upstate NY to make such a change. (Perhaps the 'single UHF antenna' argument would work?)

It makes me wonder if WVNY ever realistically expected to get adequate coverage near Montreal. Also makes me wonder how much effort and expense Videotron will put into picking up WVNY OTA post-transition, as opposed to picking up WXYZ-DT Detroit off fiber or satellite. (I mean, if they claimed not to be able to pick up WWBI????). This may be something WVNY engineering should look into, before losing the Montreal market altogether. 10-4, you reading this?

TVLurker

anyone heard on ptz?

I just came back from the canadian/us border. Only there was i able to lock mu computer to WVNY!!!

I'm lucky at my house, but can't beleive what is going on. Why have they done such a thing?!

It makes me wonder if WVNY ever realistically expected to get adequate coverage near Montreal.
TVLurker

They did. When I called a few years ago to complain, they told me that they had Montreal in mind when designing their antenna pattern. There are 4 million viewers in Montreal compared to 300 thousand in Burlington-Plattsburgh. They need those viewers. In fact, many (if not most) of the local ads I see on WVNY and WFFF are for Quebec business like Rona, the Brick, and local restaurants. They were even running ads for "Club Super Sexe" a few years ago! :eek:

WFFF's 18kw temporary antenna at 12 feet in the air is getting better coverage than WVNY!

Here's my antenna setup.
Have you tried moving your VHF antenna to the top? Maybe the extra 4 feet of height would make a difference.

Typically height shouldn't be an issue with VHF (according to the bozos who think VHF is so great). :p

That's not the point. The fact is that people in condos (which can't have large antennas) will be stuck with only 4 out of 5 networks with indoor antennas, making them opt to go on cable to get them, which I wanted to discourage.

They did. When I called a few years ago to complain, they told me that they had Montreal in mind when designing their antenna pattern. There are 4 million viewers in Montreal compared to 300 thousand in Burlington-Plattsburgh. They need those viewers.

Well, that's good to know. It at least means that they'll do everything possible to make sure that Videotron can get a good signal at the existing headend, either directly or over the air. I'm just not sure how much WVNY depend on OTA reception for their ratings book.

TVlurker

When are they going full power?

WFFF's 18kw temporary antenna at 12 feet in the air is getting better coverage than WVNY!

Yipikyer: Only in the spring. Query WFFF on the FCC's site and look at their latest filing. http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=10132

TV Lurker: OTA ratings were going to be a work in progress. With Canadian cable and satellite companies charging more for U.S. networks or HD and then butchering the signals with simultaneous substitution, much could have been done to promote the availability of U.S. digital networks over-the-air. Most new TVs have the digital tuners built in, and the UHF ones are receivable even with indoor antennas! WVNY (and others) would much prefer having their Montreal viewers over-the-air than on cable so that CTV and Global wouldn't swoop in and take them.

...
It makes me wonder if WVNY ever realistically expected to get adequate coverage near Montreal. Also makes me wonder how much effort and expense Videotron will put into picking up WVNY OTA post-transition, as opposed to picking up WXYZ-DT Detroit off fiber or satellite. (I mean, if they claimed not to be able to pick up WWBI????). This may be something WVNY engineering should look into, before losing the Montreal market altogether. 10-4, you reading this?

TVLurker

First, Videotron has been supplying US HD channels for ABCHD, NBCHD, CBSHD and FOXHD from Buffalo and not Detroit since last spring. This is done via Rogers.

As for PBSHD, that was coming from Spokane, WA until quite recently. It is presently coming from Detroit.

The CRTC regulation rules that Videotron must use the closest US stations as a source. During the absence of HD service from Burlington and Plattsburgh, Videotron made a deal with Rogers to use the same sources (PBSHD being the exception, perhaps because there are no commercials for local business at PBSHD).

Once Mount Mansfield provides HD service OTA, Videotron will be required to change its sources. I'm sure they will find a way to capture all of them, including WVNY.

F
The CRTC regulation rules that Videotron must use the closest US stations as a source. .

No as far as I know, but I'm open to correction. The 4+1 rule says that cable companies can pick the source for their American stations. Perhaps they have to ask permission, but so what? Videotron can just claim they can't easily get a reliable WVNY signal from their existing headend in Montreal. [They already did that when they claimed not to be able to receive WWBI over the air.]

Rogers in Ottawa gets all their commercial networks from Detroit, not from Burlington, Watertown, Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, or Erie, which are all 'closer' that Detroit. All they had to say to the CRTC was that the original Deseronto headend was unreliable, and the newer replacement system using a crossborder microwave link through Eastern Microwave was being decommissioned on the American side. They got Detroit because it was probably free for them to stick it on an internal fibre link, probably from a London headend. I don't think that they're paying Corus/Shaw to get a Cancom feed.

In fact, I'd venture to say that the CRTC appears to prefer the distribution of remote American stations from large markets (like Boston, Detroit, Minneapolis, and Seattle), because those larger home markets charge per-minute advertising rates that are much more expensive than either the small market border town rates (like Bangor, Burlington, Grand Forks, or Minot), or even the Canadian market rates. Don't forget that cross-border advertising costs are not deductible for Canadian businesses, so there needs to be a substantial discount over Canadian spot rates to be competitive.

But this is all speculation on my part. :)

TVlurker

foxfan

For your information,

I am using a CM4228 about 6 feet above the roof top in Brossard.
My signal for WVNY (13) is about 55% while the other station from Mt-Mansfield are in the 90%. Maybe I am lucky but the TV is happy (great picture).

Note: I re-used my old coax cable (probably RG-59) and I have a old radio-shack pre-amp.

Good luck. (this post is entertaining :-)

It is bad for subscribers to have one of the affiliates being from a different market than the other 3 or 4. This makes viewers lose some syndicated shows and makes some other ones overlap.

You're probably right about the CRTC favoring distant stations instead of local. The CAB has asked the CRTC in the past to allow stations from distant markets to be used instead of local ones.

foxfan

For your information,

I am using a CM4228 about 6 feet above the roof top in Brossard.
My signal for WVNY (13) is about 55% while the other station from Mt-Mansfield are in the 90%. Maybe I am lucky but the TV is happy (great picture).

Note: I re-used my old coax cable (probably RG-59) and I have a old radio-shack pre-amp.

Good luck. (this post is entertaining :-)

55% is still too low to be considered reliable in my book...

It must just depend on location. I live in Peru and can get all of them at 70-80% with just a DIY antenna made from wire mesh and pieces of coat hanger and PVC pipe ( kinda looks like a DB2). I just hung it from the side of my house facing Mansfield. I might add an amp because I have about 100' of RG59 to the TV

I notice that a lot of folks are using pre-amps. I am not but I plan to replace my passive 4-way splitter with an amplified splitter. What is the difference in the final signal?
Thanks

It must just depend on location. I live in Peru and can get all of them at 70-80% with just a DIY antenna made from wire mesh and pieces of coat hanger and PVC pipe ( kinda looks like a DB2). I just hung it from the side of my house facing Mansfield. I might add an amp because I have about 100' of RG59 to the TVI'd like to see a picture of that. :)

I'd like to see a picture of that. :)


I'll take one this weekend, It's not the prettiest looking, but it works. Any word on when WPTZ will be up

I'm still fooling around with my cheap indoor amped antenna while waiting for my DB4. I'm getting analogs from all over the place esp. canadian channels but still no luck with digitals except PBS outta NY.

Any news from our buddy 10-4?

I took a look at http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp and it shows the direction of the transmissions. Interestingly, channel 13s signal strength is mostly to the south-west-south with not much to the east-north-east. I wonder if that has anything to do with the problems in receiving its signal. With the exception of 14, the others broadcast 360 degrees

It must just depend on location. I live in Peru and can get all of them at 70-80% with just a DIY antenna made from wire mesh and pieces of coat hanger and PVC pipe ( kinda looks like a DB2). I just hung it from the side of my house facing Mansfield. I might add an amp because I have about 100' of RG59 to the TV

I really must have something wrong. With my antennas location and build and using RG6 I should have a great signal strength. I'm gonna double check my antenna bearing tonight just to make sure all is well there. I'll also eliminate the splitter to see if I gain much (should add some) and try adding another antenna (rabbit ears) to the set-up. If not I may just be out of luck until I try a stronger pre-amp.

I took a look at http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp and it shows the direction of the transmissions. Interestingly, channel 13s signal strength is mostly to the south-west-south with not much to the east-north-east. I wonder if that has anything to do with the problems in receiving its signal. With the exception of 14, the others broadcast 360 degrees

They had to do that to supress their signal going north-east towards Trois-Rivieres, which has CKTM-TV on channel 13. It should not impact their signal going west/north-west. Channel 14 has the same pattern (to protect a reservation in Sherbrooke) but its signal was still coming in at over 80% in Montreal.

Hey FoxFan,
Sorry about your reception problem for 13. Keep trying.
Just had a tech over in Lake Placid and 13 is the strongest there of all the Mansfield signals. What happens when you pipe that antenna direct to the set???

As for the WFFF antenna it's about 170' above the ground. The FCC database has a typo. It's not 4m.

Working on the 43 main antenna. Might try to get that going in the next week or so, but the conditions are not good.

Thanks for the reception feedback.

10-4. I just sent you a PM.

As for WVNY reaching Lake Placid, I know that a VHF signal will reach more in valley-like areas than a UHF signal, but how many people live there? 2600? Why waste your time trying to reach viewers there when that's not what advertisers are after?

Is there any tweaking that can be done at the transmitting end to increase the signal to Montreal?

Just got the following email from program director at WVNY:

WVNY is pleased to announce that as of November 1, 2006 we are
broadcasting in HD with our digital signal!

Your local listings should specify which network programs are carried in
HD, but as a general guideline you can expect to see most prime time
programs as well as the news programs (Good Morning America, weekdays
and weekends), Saturday Night College Football and The View during the
weekdays.

If you have any questions about the signal or whether or not a
particular program is in HD, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Thank you for your patience and support. This has been a long
anticipated moment and we are very excited to finally get here!



Sara Carpenter
Director of Programming
WVNY-ABC22
298 Mountain View Drive
Colchester, VT 05446
p (802) 660-9333 ext. 162
f (802) 660-8673

Got the same email. Very happy to say that I can now receive WVNY and WFFF via a newer antenna from Radio Shack. Both are looking good and signal is strong in the Malletts Bay area. 4 down 1 to go. C'mon WPTZ

That's not the point. The fact is that people in condos (which can't have large antennas) will be stuck with only 4 out of 5 networks with indoor antennas, making them opt to go on cable to get them, which I wanted to discourage.Hey FoxFan,
Sorry about your reception problem for 13. Keep trying.
10-4, FoxFan has a really good point. Someone like me, who's in an appartment, has no ability to put up a tower with antennas to catch that signal. It seems that FoxFan has a really excellent setup and is STILL having trouble catching it. That means people who are in my situation (99% of your montreal market?) aren't even going to bother.

So, I don't mind living with 4 of 5. For someone who watches 5 hours of TV a week, it's perfectly acceptable. I've canceled my expressvu account (who needs 100 SD channels of repeats, a $100/mo bill, and a headache whenever you try to move appartments), and watching the HD stations exclusively at this point.

Very happy to say that I can now receive WVNY and WFFF via a newer antenna from Radio Shack.So... Which antenna did you get?

Orig had a Philips SVC2270/17 from Circuit City for $24.99. It got VPT and WCAX no prob. No WFFF or WNVY though. Radio Shack Model: 15-1892 is the one I picked up today for $49.99 and thats looking 1000x better.

Chip

Location: Delson, South Shore of Montreal (45.374835 , -73.552855).
Tuner: FusionHDTV5 PCI (LG 5th Gen)

Alright, my report goes the same way as most people in the Montreal area: I can receive Channel 22 Analog with a little snow with my indoor antenna (RS 1501880) and crystal clear putting my A-Neutronics outside ~15' from the ground but regardless of the combination used, I cannot get any lock on the RF13 DTV signal of WVNY.


RadioShack #150-1880 - INDOOR
=============================
RF13 - ABC - WVNY - ???? - NO SIGNAL
RF14 - NBC - WPTZ - ???? - NO SIGNAL
RF19 - SRC - ???? - 2.1 - 99-100% (27-29DB)
RF20 - CBC - ???? - 6.1 - 97-100% (25-28DB)
RF32 - PBS - WETK - 33.1 - 85-90% (20-24DB)
RF38 - PBS - WCFE - 57.1 - 93-97% (25-27DB)
RF43 - FOX - WFFF - 44.1 - 23-25% (6-8DB)
RF53 - CBS - WCAX - 3.1 - 75-83% (19-21DB)


A-Neutronics AV-891 - INDOOR
===========================
RF13 - ABC - WVNY - ???? - NO SIGNAL
RF14 - NBC - WPTZ - ???? - NO SIGNAL
RF19 - SRC - ???? - 2.1 - 99-100% (29-31DB)
RF20 - CBC - ???? - 6.1 - 97-100% (26-28DB)
RF32 - PBS - WETK - 33.1 - 97-100% (27-29DB)
RF38 - PBS - WCFE - 57.1 - 97-100% (26-27DB)
RF43 - FOX - WFFF - 44.1 - 27-31% (9-11DB)
RF53 - CBS - WCAX - 3.1 - 75-83% (19-21DB)


A-Neutronics AV-891 - OUTDOOR (~15' from the ground)
================= ==================================
RF13 - ABC - WVNY - ???? - 22-24% (6.3-6.4DB)
RF14 - NBC - WPTZ - ???? - NO SIGNAL
RF19 - SRC - ???? - 2.1 - 95-100% (27-29DB)
RF20 - CBC - ???? - 6.1 - 95-100% (27-29DB)
RF32 - PBS - WETK - 33.1 - 95-99% (25-27DB)
RF38 - PBS - WCFE - 57.1 - 93-97% (24-26DB)
RF43 - FOX - WFFF - 44.1 - 65-69% (18-19DB)
RF53 - CBS - WCAX - 3.1 - 95-100 (26-28DB)


Adding an amp (Motorola Booster 15DB) behind the A-Neutronics's pre-amp boosts WFFF to the ~22DB range (85%+) and slightly improves WVNY by 2-3DB to ~9DB, way below what is required for a lock.

EDIT: Haha! First post? Really? Ouch.. and I've been reading this forum for ~2 years! :)

Hello all,

I'm looking to set up a couple of antenna's in Colchester around the drive in. Any one over that way receiving good signals? If so what channels can you get? Which antenna(s) are you using?

MBFDChip, what part of Malletts Bay are you in? I'm near the high school and using the Phillips Silver Sensor, I get WCAX, WFFF, WETK clearly, however, I cannot get WVNY with this, nor can I get it with an old crappy pair of rabbit ears. If you're seeing that big of an improvement and are in my general area, I may pick up that RadioShack antenna as well.

Out of curiousity, if you hook up that antenna to your analog tuner, what kind of a picture are you getting with the analog Ch. 3 signal? I was using this to aim my antennas, but Ch. 3 never really came in good... no ghosting, just a lot of vertical distortion and static.


Thanks!!

AnalogRocks,

I'm approximately 2-3 miles from that location, and as I stated in my above post, I receive the UHF channels from Mt. Mansfield quite well with an indoor antenna. So far, no luck on WVNY with my indoor antennas... I cannot pull in WCFE, either, although I'm sure if I used an outdoor antenna, I could pick it up - no problem.

To answer those last two posts. I am on Shady Lane. (1/4 mile from the drivein). I had snowny analog on ch 3 while scanning. I have adelphia so i never used it prior to the digital signals coming through. I do not have a line of site with Mt Mansfield due to diversity hill blocking. You should have a good los. The signal was strong enough on both uhf/vhf that i didnt even have to tweak it. hope that helps.

Chip

Thanks for the quick reply, Chip! Out of curiousity, can you pull in WCFE from over there with that Radio Shack antenna?

It did pick up it but it was real bad quality. Dont really care about PBS too much to bother tuning it so I dont know it adjusting would have made a difference.

Hello MBFD and Canadianeh:
Hi Guys...I grew up on Pine Lane off of Porter's Point Rd right next to you...just wanted to say hi since I saw where you were.

You guys should be getting blasted from the transmitter (since you're only ~15-20 miles away as the crow flies). In the words of 10-4 "You better check that antenna..."

I'm out of town right now but will report from Williston tomorrow on VNY. I have an el-crappo $50 Phillips silver sensor (+10db amplified) and have received everyting crystal clear so far.

Out of curiousity, if you hook up that antenna to your analog tuner, what kind of a picture are you getting with the analog Ch. 3 signal? I was using this to aim my antennas, but Ch. 3 never really came in good... no ghosting, just a lot of vertical distortion and static.You probably should be using channel 33 for aiming, since that's closest to the middle of the "band" you're trying to receive.

Also, how "deep" inside the house is the antenna? I initially tried hiding my Silver Sensor on the top shelf of an upstairs closet, but it had to "shoot" through several walls to see the towers, and I wound up with basically no signal. When I put it on top of my entertainment unit, out in the open, and shooting through just 1 wall (the exterior wall), I got waaaaaaay more signal. Enough to pull in all the HD channels in the high 90's (including 'VNY).

Oh, hey... One more thing. I nearly bought the Radio Shack 15-2186, but went with the Silver Sensor instead. It gets really good reviews on the RS website and is in stock all over the place. Anyone out there game to give it a try? If so, tell us how is performs.

Was hoping to watch Smallville in HD tonight on WFFF but it was blacked out OTA. It showed up on Adephia 9. What is up with that. I saw some CW shows earlier today via antenna so how come Smallville didn't?

Well more Canadian's invading Vermont eh? Cool.

I think I'll try a silver sensor for testing then move onto a bigger one. I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks guys.

Was hoping to watch Smallville in HD tonight on WFFF but it was blacked out OTA. It showed up on Adephia 9. What is up with that. I saw some CW shows earlier today via antenna so how come Smallville didn't?
WFFF-HD seems to be off the air again.

I checked. They're still on the air (same strong signal) but they are just showing a black screen on -1. The -2 channel is still showing color bars.

Any more reports on how awfully difficult it is to receive WVNY-DT 13?

10-4. I just sent you a PM.

As for WVNY reaching Lake Placid, I know that a VHF signal will reach more in valley-like areas than a UHF signal, but how many people live there? 2600? Why waste your time trying to reach viewers there when that's not what advertisers are after?

Is there any tweaking that can be done at the transmitting end to increase the signal to Montreal?

Ok here's what we're gonna do and it's gonna work let's fist make a list of all the advertiser that do advertising on WVNY then let's call them up and tell them that people from Montreal aren't receiving WVNY digital so they should reconsider spending so much money on making publicity on this channel since they are only reaching a fraction on possible customers.

With the experience I have, this trick always work when you want a station to move on a subject, GO FOR THE POCKET.

So let's start put the advertisers you know that does publicity on WNVNY. I hope 10-4 that you will report this to your boss, cause we're are not gonna give up on this.

My WVNY signal is gone this morning. Peaking at 40%. Dammit.
Let's start making that list. But hey, i can't get the channel!!! :rolleyes:
Seriously, let's do it. I also received the email yestrday, i replied to them.
I guess the more people complaining will help, but the advertisers will make it happen.

My own opinion

WFFF is still out here but I got WVNY coming in strong.

Here we go

Sears 1-800-349-4358

I live on a ridge in Cornwall, VT 35 miles south of Burlington, and about 40-45 miles from Mount Mansfield as a crow flies. I have an unobstructed roof peak and great Green Mountain views, however I can not see Mount Mansfield directly.

I have ordered and not yet received my 1st HD TV a 32"sony Bravia XBR2 with built in tuner. If it works out well I'll get a unit for my home theater next. I need advise on what to do for reception. Do I want a directional rooftop antenna pointed towards Mansfield? I see posts from people in Montreal getting these channels, can we get channels from there in my area? If so would a large omnidirectional be a better choice? Anyone in this forum from my area? I have no idea what I should do and I am even having trouble finding someone to put up an antenna, everyone is Dish dish dish.
Thanks for any advise,
Kevin

I checked. They're still on the air (same strong signal) but they are just showing a black screen on -1. The -2 channel is still showing color bars.

Any more reports on how awfully difficult it is to receive WVNY-DT 13?

Last night I quickly build (just 4 directors using electric wire.) an antenna for channel 13 and was able to lock WVNY-DT at 55% (The antenna is in the attic) I was happy until I switch to channel 10 which is now unwatchable... I will have to think of something else. At 55% that mean I will drop out and day's with no signal.

I live on a ridge in Cornwall, VT 35 miles south of Burlington, and about 40-45 miles from Mount Mansfield as a crow flies. I have an unobstructed roof peak and great Green Mountain views, however I can not see Mount Mansfield directly.

I have ordered and not yet received my 1st HD TV a 32"sony Bravia XBR2 with built in tuner. If it works out well I'll get a unit for my home theater next. I need advise on what to do for reception. Do I want a directional rooftop antenna pointed towards Mansfield? I see posts from people in Montreal getting these channels, can we get channels from there in my area? If so would a large omnidirectional be a better choice? Anyone in this forum from my area? I have no idea what I should do and I am even having trouble finding someone to put up an antenna, everyone is Dish dish dish.
Thanks for any advise,
Kevin
First, go to www.antennaweb.org and enter your address to find what stations in which direction you might get and then what type of antenna you'll need. Then, if you go back a page or two, you will find a couple of web sites I posted for antennas.

I checked. They're still on the air (same strong signal) but they are just showing a black screen on -1. The -2 channel is still showing color bars.

Any more reports on how awfully difficult it is to receive WVNY-DT 13?


With all the trouble people are having, I don't understand why I can even get it at all. I'm over 35 miles from the transmitter with an unamplified DIY UHF antenna and a long run of RG-59. (solid 70%+ on WVNY-DT 13, 80%-90% on the rest) I had built it as a quick fix until I had a chance to set up a good one, but now I may just keep this one. I'm guessing the imperfections in my design like "yeah, that's about one-half wavelength" is what makes it work .

Here's a simple question:
Is WFFF not "officially" b'casting in HD? I ask because there's no mention on their website, nor listings in TitanTV, Zap2it, etc.

Here's a simple question:
Is WFFF not "officially" b'casting in HD? I ask because there's no mention on their website, nor listings in TitanTV, Zap2it, etc.
Not that it answers your question, but initially their digital signal was not widescreen until they fixed the widescreen broadcast equipment a few days ago.

Last night I quickly build (just 4 directors using electric wire.) an antenna for channel 13

Out of curiosity... where did you get instructions on properly building such an antenna?

I've considered building a cut channel antenna myself, and since we're not that far away, I'm interested in finding out what your recipe was! Do you have a link you give us, or some instructions? Are you using a pre-amplifier at the antenna or not?

For others that are interested, here are the various sites I have found so far with instruction on building a channel specific VHF antenna:

twin lead dipole (http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html)

Aluminium tubing yagi (http://radio.meteor.free.fr/us/antenna.html) , or here (http://radio.meteor.free.fr/antenne.html#antenne), for the original and clearer French version.

Here are instructions on how to properly use rabbit ears to maximize your chances on WVNY-DT (VHF 13):
http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/RabbitEars.html

If so would a large omnidirectional be a better choice? Anyone in this forum from my area? I have no idea what I should do and I am even having trouble finding someone to put up an antenna, everyone is Dish dish dish.All of the commercial HD signals for the Vermont area are co-located atop Mt. Mansfield. Therefore, you DO NOT want an omnidirectional antenna. You're probably looking at a "big old" uni-directional rooftop antenna pointed in that direction.

A good place to start is your local Radio Shack. I'd think they would be able to recommend an installer if you're not inclined to DIY.

Edit: I agree with your assessment regarding "Dish, Dish, Dish". Come to think of it, going to Radio Shack may not be such a good idea. Highly depends on who's working the counter that day. They might push hard to sell you HDTV over satellite instead. If that's the case, turn around and walk out the door.

With all the trouble people are having, I don't understand why I can even get it at all.

The problems with WVNY-DT reception are mostly in the Montreal area, and they are due not necessarily just to the transmitters power level, but because of interference from analog TV station CFCF-TV 12 from Mount Royal.

Channel 12 broadcasts with an ERP of 325 kW.
WVNY-DT transmits from 90 miles away with 10 kW.
That's much more than a 15dB difference. (I don't know how to work out what the free space loss would be for 216MHz at 90 miles, but it would be quite a bit)

This comparable to the problems peiople have had over the years receiving channel 3 and channel 5 in Montreal, with local high power stations on 2 and 6, while 3 and 5 were broadcasting with ERPs of 38 and 25 kW respectively). In the end, a lot of people in montreal have opted for cable or satellite.

In Montreal, the high power of the NTSC carrier for channel 12 swamps the AGC (Automatic Gain Control) in the TV receiver's amplifier, and prevents it from providing much gain for the channel 13 signal. If you're far enough away from Montreal, this doesn't happen, and given a reasonable Line of Sight (LOS) to Mt Mansfield, I imagine WVNY should come in fine.

There are probably some little tricks Montrealers could try to improve ch 13 reception:

1. some directional antennas have their deepest nulls at angles other than 180 degrees. In other words, by pointing your antenna 5 to 45 degrees off-angle from Mount Mansfield, you may sacrifice 3 dB in forward gain, but get 10-15 dB more rejection of the interfering channel 12 signal by placing the Mount Royal Tower in a deep null. (To check this out, connect the antenna to an NTSC tuner tuned to ch 13, and rotate the antenna until the adjacent channel interference from ch 12 is weakest, and then try for WVNY-DT with your ATSC receiver - foxfan, I sent you a PM about this idea - single channel Yagis for VHF High are pretty broadband (channel 12 may only be 1 dB down))

2. get a notch filter for channel 12's video or audio carrier frequencies. (A trap filter would attenuate too much of channel 13 as well, but a notch filter won't)

3. try a different ATSC receiver, to see if its RF characteristics are better

Of course, none of these solutions gets around the fact that WVNY-DT will be much more difficult to recieve near Montreal than any of the other Vermont stations.
(Note that if and when CFCF starts their DTV station on ch 21, WCAX-DT, which will be on channel 22 by then, may also have some problems. And in that case, a notch filter will not be as effective, as the digital 8 VSB spectrum is more evenly spread out across the 6 MHz channel than the NTSC VSB signal is. But that's many years away.)

An excellent place to learn about HDTV and TV antennas is www.hdtvprimer.com

TVlurker

I live on a ridge in Cornwall, VT 35 miles south of Burlington, and about 40-45 miles from Mount Mansfield as a crow flies. I have an unobstructed roof peak and great Green Mountain views, however I can not see Mount Mansfield directly.

I have ordered and not yet received my 1st HD TV a 32"sony Bravia XBR2 with built in tuner. If it works out well I'll get a unit for my home theater next. I need advise on what to do for reception. Do I want a directional rooftop antenna pointed towards Mansfield? I see posts from people in Montreal getting these channels, can we get channels from there in my area? If so would a large omnidirectional be a better choice? Anyone in this forum from my area? I have no idea what I should do and I am even having trouble finding someone to put up an antenna, everyone is Dish dish dish.
Thanks for any advise,
Kevin
I had to go to 3 or 4 Radio Shacks to find antenna installation supplies. The one in Morrisville had the best stock. Home Depot has stuff like RG6, crimp on ends, crimpers and strippers, splitters, wall mounts, etc and I've heard that Lowes also carries antenna supplies. I ordered my antennas from www.antennasdirect.com and www.summitsource.com. You can get good info from www.hdtvprimer.com so you know what to look for, but www.antennaweb.org should be your first stop.

Do we have a contact at WFFF? If someone would PM me their email addr, I'd ask them to notify Zap2It, etc. of their new station. It got the VPT HD station to be listed.

www.antennaweb.org should be your first stop.Folks, I punched Cornwall, VT into antennaweb.org, and none of the Mansfield DT stations show up. When I go the FCC website route, it says Cornwall is ~44mi from the towers, and they're at a bearing of 26.4degrees.

Also, Google Earth is a good route to go, if you have it. Use the ruler to draw a line between Cornwall and Stowe to get the distance and bearing.

Do we have a contact at WFFF? If someone would PM me their email addr, I'd ask them to notify Zap2It, etc. of their new station. It got the VPT HD station to be listed.Go to http://www.fox44.net and click on "Contact Fox 44" in the lower left-hand corner.

The problems with WVNY-DT reception are mostly in the Montreal area, and they are due not necessarily just to the transmitters power level, but because of interference from analog TV station CFCF-TV 12 from Mount Royal.

Channel 12 broadcasts with an ERP of 325 kW.
WVNY-DT transmits from 90 miles away with 10 kW.
That's much more than a 15dB difference. (I don't know how to work out what the free space loss would be for 216MHz at 90 miles, but it would be quite a bit)

This comparable to the problems peiople have had over the years receiving channel 3 and channel 5 in Montreal, with local high power stations on 2 and 6, while 3 and 5 were broadcasting with ERPs of 38 and 25 kW respectively). In the end, a lot of people in montreal have opted for cable or satellite.

In Montreal, the high power of the NTSC carrier for channel 12 swamps the AGC (Automatic Gain Control) in the TV receiver's amplifier, and prevents it from providing much gain for the channel 13 signal. If you're far enough away from Montreal, this doesn't happen, and given a reasonable Line of Sight (LOS) to Mt Mansfield, I imagine WVNY should come in fine.

There are probably some little tricks Montrealers could try to improve ch 13 reception:

1. some directional antennas have their deepest nulls at angles other than 180 degrees. In other words, by pointing your antenna 5 to 45 degrees off-angle from Mount Mansfield, you may sacrifice 3 dB in forward gain, but get 10-15 dB more rejection of the interfering channel 12 signal by placing the Mount Royal Tower in a deep null. (To check this out, connect the antenna to an NTSC tuner tuned to ch 13, and rotate the antenna until the adjacent channel interference from ch 12 is weakest, and then try for WVNY-DT with your ATSC receiver - foxfan, I sent you a PM about this idea - single channel Yagis for VHF High are pretty broadband (channel 12 may only be 1 dB down))

2. get a notch filter for channel 12's video or audio carrier frequencies. (A trap filter would attenuate too much of channel 13 as well, but a notch filter won't)

3. try a different ATSC receiver, to see if its RF characteristics are better

Of course, none of these solutions gets around the fact that WVNY-DT will be much more difficult to recieve near Montreal than any of the other Vermont stations.
(Note that if and when CFCF starts their DTV station on ch 21, WCAX-DT, which will be on channel 22 by then, may also have some problems. And in that case, a notch filter will not be as effective, as the digital 8 VSB spectrum is more evenly spread out across the 6 MHz channel than the NTSC VSB signal is. But that's many years away.)

An excellent place to learn about HDTV and TV antennas is www.hdtvprimer.com

TVlurker

I don't think CFCF-DT 21 will cause too many problems to WCAX-DT on channel 22. Adjacent digital channels usually don't interfere with each other. Of course, the best solution would be if CFCF could make its final channel election right away (probably 12 as CFTM has indicated it will go back to 10) and opt to make a flash-cut to digital.

I wish we could test WVNY's signal with CFCF off the air, but they never shut that damn thing off. I don't think it's just interference though. Even when channels 2 and 6 shut off, channels 3 and 5 are still snowy and staticky, and never become perfect like 22 or 33. I think there's a lot of free space loss for VHF channels. I think that if interference from 12 was the only issue, the signal would read "0", not "40".

Note also that there are many in VT who are close to Mansfield and still have trouble getting it with rabbit ears.

Out of curiosity... where did you get instructions on properly building such an antenna?

I've considered building a cut channel antenna myself, and since we're not that far away, I'm interested in finding out what your recipe was! Do you have a link you give us, or some instructions? Are you using a pre-amplifier at the antenna or not?


I cannot post link here (I don't have 5 posts) check on digitalhome ca QC/ON - Montreal/Cornwall/Southern Quebec - OTA the link are there.

I don't have a pre-amplifier just a distribution amp in the basement. I will try again this weekend, I think I do not have very good contact.

Adjacent digital channels usually don't interfere with each other.

Adjacent co-located channels within 10 dB of each other don't interfere much with each other.


Of course, the best solution would be if CFCF could make its final channel election right away (probably 12 as CFTM has indicated it will go back to 10) and opt to make a flash-cut to digital.

Who knows what CTV plans to do. They don't seem to be in too much of a hurry to implement more that Toronto and Vancouver, and they're both at relatively low power. It's not even clear how much they're going to do for OTA for the 2010 Olympics. But I agree that, if Canada ever does digital only, CFCF-DT would probably revert to 12. (If only to control total power levels at the Mt Royal tower)


I wish we could test WVNY's signal with CFCF off the air, but they never shut that damn thing off.

me too. And CBC has gone 24 hours now, too. Has SRC as well?
I still remember when all the Montreal stations didn't sign on until around noon in the summer. Made for good E-skip catches on lazy summer mornings.


I don't think it's just interference though. Even when channels 2 and 6 shut off, channels 3 and 5 are still snowy and staticky, and never become perfect like 22 or 33.


True.


I think that if interference from 12 was the only issue, the signal would read "0", not "40".

Not sure I understand your point here.

Are the numbers you posted in the screen shot RF dBu values, or percentage valid packets?
In either case, the measurement is bound to be AFTER whatever gain the receiver amplifier has applied to the incoming channel 13 signal. and the measurements are probably on some version of the demodulated ATSC signal. If so, a reduction of gain due to swamping by the CFCF signal would result in lower value for the demodulated 13 signal. Deepening the null of channel 12 either by re-aiming your antenna, or playing with phased arrays, or appying a ch. 12 notch filter, may still help.

Have you tried to adjust your antenna for a deeper null on 12?

Another idea is to try and find out when the next scheduled maintenance is on the Mount Royal tower is -- channel 12 would probably have to reduce power or shut off their transmitter while someone is working on the tower. If Ch. 12 won't tell you, maybe someone at CBC Technologies (formerly the CBC Engineering dept.) will. You can then see what WVNY-DT looks like without ch. 12 on.

Good luck. Still waiting to here form someone on the island, within a few miles of the mountain, who actually can easily receive VNY-DT -- like perhaps someone high up in a south-facing high rise, whose view of Mt Royal is blocked.

TVlurker

Folks, I punched Cornwall, VT into antennaweb, and none of the Mansfield DT stations show up. When I go the FCC website route, it says Cornwall is ~44mi from the towers, and they're at a bearing of 26.4degrees.


You can lie to antennaweb to get a list of stations that are further out - click the + sign next to "options" at the bottom of the address page, and put in a high number for your antenna height - 2000 feet seems to work nicely. Then it'll give you a list of stations that are farther away.

Of course that doesn't mean you can actually pick up those stations, but you'll know what general direction to point an antenna if you want to try it.

Anybody know if there's a site combining google earth / google maps and the FCC database? Seems like it ought to be simple enough, though I don't have time to code it myself.

Anybody know if there's a site combining google earth / google maps and the FCC database? Seems like it ought to be simple enough, though I don't have time to code it myself.

ithink that could be what you are looking for:

http://www.recnet (dot) com/cdbs/fmq.php?facid=10132

TV Lurker, at the location where I have the single-channel 13 setup (combined to the UHF one), Mt. Royal is directly south-west and Mt. Mansfield is south-east. Therefore, when I point my antenna to Mt. Mansfield, Mt. Royal is at roughly 90 degrees, meaning that it should already be in the deepest null, right? I had tried moving it when we were installing it but it had no effect.

At the other location where I have the all-channel antenna, Royal is directly west, and Mt. Mansfield is south-east.

As for filtering equipment, I was thinking of getting a bandpass for just the frequencies corresponding to channel 13 to put between the channel 13 antenna and the UHF one. For the all-channel antenna, I'll probably have to find a notch one that doesn't have too much degradation on the UHF channels.

I'll take one this weekend, It's not the prettiest looking, but it works. Any word on when WPTZ will be up

E-mail WPTZ this morning, here's their reply:

We bagan testing the new HD transmitter, feedline and antenna last week.
Unfortunately the transmitter would only make 50% of the power it was
supposed to be running! The manufacture installed a new tube and it
blew up yesterday as they were testing it.

Now they are shipping another tube and it will be installed on Monday. We
have our fingers crossed that the third time will be the charm.

Can't promise anything but we are ready and as soon as the manufacture
turns the transmitter over to us we will be on the air with HD programs
within 15 minutes!

Joe Krone
Operations Manager
WPTZ & WPTZ DT Burlington VT - Plattsburgh NY
WNNE & WNNE DT Hartford VT - Hanover NH





===============================================

Even if WPTZ's test signal was only being sent at half-power, were still getting its test signal at 87% in the Montreal area, UNLIKE WVNY WHICH IS FULL POWER AND COMES IN AT 40%! :mad:

TV Lurker, at the location where I have the single-channel 13 setup (combined to the UHF one), Mt. Royal is directly south-west and Mt. Mansfield is south-east. Therefore, when I point my antenna to Mt. Mansfield, Mt. Royal is at roughly 90 degrees, meaning that it should already be in the deepest null, right? I had tried moving it when we were installing it but it had no effect.

According to the plots at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/WadeSCY.html it looks like the deepst nulls are at 90 degrees. If your antenna is similar, it looks like you already tried your best.


At the other location where I have the all-channel antenna, Royal is directly west, and Mt. Mansfield is south-east.

As for filtering equipment, I was thinking of getting a bandpass for just the frequencies corresponding to channel 13 to put between the channel 13 antenna and the UHF one. For the all-channel antenna, I'll probably have to find a notch one that doesn't have too much degradation on the UHF channels.

You may need a notch in either case. A bandpass filter or a Jointenna for ch 13 won't attenuate ch 12 as much as a notch filter would. Do a google search for MATV notch filters.

I was playing around with the transmission patter plots at recnet.com. it looks like the gr B equivalent contours for each of the vermont stations (other than WPTZ, which changed location) is about the same for each station - in other words, ch 3 and ch 5 both include the island of Montreal in both analog and digital, but ch 22 and ch 13 do not.
I don't know if this is a failure of the prediction model to match reality, but I agree with you that it's much easier to get a viewable, even almost perfect picture on ch 22 and ch 44 analog than on channels 3 or 5 in or near Montreal, regardless of whether there is an adjacent channel broadcasting on 2 or 6.

I've run out of ideas.

I think it's time for WVNY to do some field testing in Quebec...
(The excuse would be that they want to ensure that they're not interfering with CKTM ;)

TVlurker

I had inquired about notch filters before, and they're like $80!

I had inquired about notch filters before, and they're like $80!

I'm not surprised.

I think it's a good time to ask WVNY what they suggest! (and I 'm being serious here.)

TVl

TV Lurker, at the location where I have the single-channel 13 setup (combined to the UHF one), Mt. Royal is directly south-west and Mt. Mansfield is south-east. Therefore, when I point my antenna to Mt. Mansfield, Mt. Royal is at roughly 90 degrees, meaning that it should already be in the deepest null, right? I had tried moving it when we were installing it but it had no effect.


Foxfan,

I know I said I was done with suggestions, but I had another thought.
10-4 had asked if you tried the ch 13 antenna by itself. I still think this is a good idea for debugging, even if it's not what you would consider a suitable end solution.

By having the ch 13 yagi combined with the UHF yagi:

- you may suffer 3 dB combiner loss if you use a broadband combiner. (There would only be a small or no loss if you use a jointenna or a UHF/VHF combiner)

- perhaps the UHF yagi is picking up enough ch 12 signal to smooth out the null in your ch 13 Yagi

Try the yagi by itself on an analog tuner. Tune to ch 13, and adjust your antenna until you see the least amount of ch 12 interference. (a totally snowy looking screen is ideal, but may not be necessary). This is the position with the deepest null on ch. 12.

Then try your ATSC tuner on ch 13, and see if there is any improvement for WVNY-dt.
If there is, go back and connect both antennas again, and do the analog ch 13 test again. If the ch 12 interfewrence is worse, that may account for your bad result on WVNY.

I'm curious, what are the numerical results you posted from your TV before. Are they power levels in dBu [I think some tuners can do this], or simply percentage correct packets?

regards,

tvl

I am in Repentigny, Quebec. East bound of Montreal
I have a powerful log periodic VHF antenna at 62 feet’s high.
I have a good UHF antenna with a 20 db gain preamplifier at 68 feet’s high.
I am 16,8 miles from Mont Royal CFCF antenna
In analog I do not have any interference from channel 12 in direction of Burlington.

All Burlington and Plattsburgh UHF stations Analog and digital come very strong and clear as local stations except WBBI 27 NTSC, WCAX 3 NTSC, WPTZ 5 NTSC and WVNY DT.

On WVNY DT 13, I have no signal at all.

It is normal!
Repentigny is at azimuth 350 degrees north from the WVNY and 88 miles away and the Mont Royal in middle of Montreal is 340 degrees north and 77 miles away.

If you look the transmitter directional chart of WVNY signal is 28,2% of 10KW in direction of Repentigny and 41% of 10KW in direction of the center of Montreal. In these circumstances it is normal that no body in Montreal catch WVNY DT.

I think channels 27 and 39 in Burlington/Plattsburgh are low-power stations.

I think there's a constant problem with regulators and engineers over-estimating the reach of VHF while underestimating the reach of UHF.

WVNY's contour predictions included Montreal even though it doesn't reach it, while this one for WFFF's temporary antenna predicted the signal would only make it to St. Albans, while in reality it does reach Montreal.

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=10132 (click on the service contour map for their DS app).

It shows you don't need to be a genius to be a broadcast engineer... :rolleyes:

Hey guys, Here's some good info , i have also bought here as well ,fast shipping from Mass.
There are Single channel Antennas and gain charts +.

http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm
http://www.starkelectronic.com/vhf.htm
http://www.starkelectronic.com/uhf.htm
http://www.starkelectronic.com/allamps.htm
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg2.htm
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg5.htm

Yeah, but even the big TACO/Jerrold ones (like I have) can't pull it in!

Can someone recommend an inexpensive outboard ATSC tuner? I know someone with an HDTV display (no tuner) and Adelphia digital cable who is looking for an outboard ATSC tuner to use while they wait for Adelphia/Comcast to "catch up" WRT locals in HD.

Have you tried turning the Taco to catch a reflection? That sometimes work.....

By outboard do you mean external? If that's the case, try HTL-HD (a D* one with a great OTA tuner), SIR-T151, SIR-T351, etc on Ebay.

Can someone recommend an inexpensive outboard ATSC tuner? I know someone with an HDTV display (no tuner) and Adelphia digital cable who is looking for an outboard ATSC tuner to use while they wait for Adelphia/Comcast to "catch up" WRT locals in HD.
Vttom,
I was in the simular situation and I was able to buy a VOOM Sat box from Ebay for $55 shipped. It works very nicely but you need to buy one that has NOT been de-activated during VOOMs last days of service. The only negative is that you need a good signal for it to lock I believe it's 75 minimum.

I did a few scans tonight and I'm not getting VNY here in Williston. My OTA tuner is picking it up though on 22 (not 13) but is not showing any content. I kept trying to directly tune to 13 but I didn't get anything. I then tried to directly tune to 22 and was able to get some flickers of a pixelated mess but that was it.

Time to get an antenna for the roof. Too bad because CAX and FFF are crystal clear with my indoor silver sensor (with the amp cranked to the max).

Is VNY having issues or is it really that low of a signal?

There we go. Even someone living next to the mountain can't get WVNY's lousy signal, and you can't blame interference from CFCF-12 for that!

Not only are Montrealers unable to get the signal, but Burlingtonians and other Vermonters who used to be just fine with indoor antennas will require outdoor antennas.

Will WVNY finally admit that that they made a tragic mistake by moving to channel 13, fire and sue their consulting engineers, and request a channel change? :mad:

So 10-4 what are your Boss's saying about the situation, do they care? Give some feedback please.

thanks you.

So, what are their options? Can they easily change the frequency to UHF or would they have to change the whole antenna first? (Can you say, "Wait till spring"?)How about just more power? Upgrade that 10k watter to 200K? How big is that, can they get it up their in the snow?

For Montreal vincinity:

I think, the best way is to write me a PM telling WVNY exactly what is going on a t your end. What kind of antenna, the height, receivers etc.... I will print them and FEDEX it along with the the ones in the other forums at the end of the week. If it's a good way, GO FOR IT!!!!!

I then tried to directly tune to 22 and was able to get some flickers of a pixelated mess but that was it.You're getting the right channel. WVNY is broadcasting over channel 13, but digital TVs "remap" them to their analog channel assignment, which is 22. They did that so you don't have to remember a whole new set of channel #'s to find your favorite shows. However, it does lead to some confusion over what kind of antenna you need.

I can't imagine you would have issues receiveing WVNY from Wiliston! Here's a suggestion before you go with an outdoor antenna...

Is your Silver Sensor the Zenith version or the Phillips version? I think the difference is that the Phillips version has rabbit ears for VHF reception while the Zenith doesn't.

At any rate, if it has rabbit ears, skip to the next paragraph. If it doesn't, go to Radio Shack (or maybe Walmart) and pick up a set of rabbit ears along with a twin-lead to coax "balun" transformer and a combiner (or use a splitter backwards) in order to combine the rabbit ears with the existing UHF-only antenna. Probably will cost you $10 or less.

Open the elements so they're both parallel to the ground and set the length of each to 1/4 wavelength of the center frequency for channel 13, which is approx. 3E8/212E6/4=0.354meters=14inches, then slowly rotate it until you max out the signal.

Also, make sure your antenna setup is not too embedded inside the house. Ideally, you should have only 1 wall (the external one) between you and Mt. Mansfield.

So, what are their options? Can they easily change the frequency to UHF or would they have to change the whole antenna first? (Can you say, "Wait till spring"?)How about just more power? Upgrade that 10k watter to 200K? How big is that, can they get it up their in the snow?

Upgrading power would be out of the question (too close to Trois-Rivieres). They have to change to a UHF channel, which would require another transmitter and antenna, and most likely wouldn't be done until 2009.

Upgrading power would be out of the question (too close to Trois-Rivieres). They have to change to a UHF channel, which would require another transmitter and antenna, and most likely wouldn't be done until 2009.

Are you serious, all that!!! **** then we are screwed :mad:

Upgrading power would be out of the question (too close to Trois-Rivieres). They have to change to a UHF channel, which would require another transmitter and antenna, and most likely wouldn't be done until 2009.

What about upgrading power and changing the contour map with a big spike towards Montreal? Or a bigger null towards Trois-Rivieres?

Can someone recommend an inexpensive outboard ATSC tuner? I know someone with an HDTV display (no tuner) and Adelphia digital cable who is looking for an outboard ATSC tuner to use while they wait for Adelphia/Comcast to "catch up" WRT locals in HD.

vttom --

I recently acquired a used Humax HFA 100 for $100 on ebay. Works great with all the Mansfield stations. It has a known lockup problem, but only if you use the HDMI output. I use the component output and haven't had a problem.

DG

The problems with WVNY-DT reception are mostly in the Montreal area, and they are due not necessarily just to the transmitters power level, but because of interference from analog TV station CFCF-TV 12 from Mount Royal...
TVlurker

I can provide some corroboration for that. I live in West Central NH, about 60 miles from Mt. Mansfield. I'm receiving the digital stations as follows:

WVNY 75%
WCAX 90%
WETK 100%
WFFF 75%

I'm using a simple Radio Shack UHF/VHF combo antenna, model 15-2152, with an old Radio Shack antenna amplifier. I'm also using a 2-way splitter to feed the antenna to my FM tuner. The antenna is about 8' above the roof.

The VHF portion of the antenna is partly broken -- it used to be in my attic, and I had to shorten some of the elements to make it clear the rafters when it rotated.

The amplifier is key. WFFF won't lock without it, and WVNY probably wouldn't either.

Given my distance from Mansfield, I think it's fair to say that VHF can have as good or better reach than UHF at much lower power. But it depends on terrain and interference from other stations.

That said, I don't think WVNY thought the whole thing through. Why force customers to use extra equipment that's needed only to receive your station? I'd have much rather put a smaller, less conspicuous UHF-only antenna on the roof. It seems like they didn't take this or the VHF interference issues into account.

DG

Anyone having WVNY reception difficulties willing to give this antenna a try?

http://www.tpub.com/neets/book10/42o.htm

The wavelength for channel 13 ~1.45meters, so it's reasonable that you could construct a 1x or 2x wavelength version by tacking wire to the ceiling of an upstairs bedroom.

They don't say what value of terminating resistor to use, but if I had to guess, I'd say use a 300-Ohm feedline at one end (into a 75-Ohm balun) and a 300-Ohm terminating resistor at the other.

I can provide some corroboration for that. I live in West Central NH, about 60 miles from Mt. Mansfield. I'm receiving the digital stations as follows:

WVNY 75%
WCAX 90%
WETK 100%
WFFF 75%

I'm using a simple Radio Shack UHF/VHF combo antenna, model 15-2152, with an old Radio Shack antenna amplifier. I'm also using a 2-way splitter to feed the antenna to my FM tuner. The antenna is about 8' above the roof.

The VHF portion of the antenna is partly broken -- it used to be in my attic, and I had to shorten some of the elements to make it clear the rafters when it rotated.

The amplifier is key. WFFF won't lock without it, and WVNY probably wouldn't either.

Given my distance from Mansfield, I think it's fair to say that VHF can have as good or better reach than UHF at much lower power. But it depends on terrain and interference from other stations.

That said, I don't think WVNY thought the whole thing through. Why force customers to use extra equipment that's needed only to receive your station? I'd have much rather put a smaller, less conspicuous UHF-only antenna on the roof. It seems like they didn't take this or the VHF interference issues into account.

DG

DG,
If you don't mind me asking, where in West central NH? I'm in East central Vt (Bradford), so we must be close to being across the river from each other. Anyway, I not getting a flicker of a signal for any of the Mt Mansfield stations but I get great signals from the 2 Mt Ascutney stations and good signals from the Littleton, NH and St Johnsbury, Vt stations.

Has anyone tried the Philips version of the Silver Sensor? It has rabbit ears for VHF, so I was wondering if that would work any better than the Zenith for VNY?

Wow - thanks VTTom....the second I flattened out the rabbit ears (it's the Philips) I picked up VNY. Holding with a good signal too...

Thanks for the tip.

Yes I have it - I'm up and running in Williston (see my post above) with a good signal now. Like VtTom mentioned - you may need to flatten the rabbit ears parallel to the ground. This fixed my reception immediately.

A glimmer of hope for those who don't want a VHF antenna, I'm getting 13 WVNY with a CM4221, leaning against the far wall of my theater, which of course has no windows. :) I'm in the woods, behind a small hill, with NLOS to Mansfield. 3/33/44 all are coming in in the mid 80s on a Dish 942, 22/13 is mid 60s.

I'm in Newport Center, 05857, about 2.5 miles down Buzzell Rd, making me just about 41 miles from the towers, through my 30 acre wood lot and a couple of hills.



Earlier this week I moved the 4221 to a window sill in a 2nd story bedroom. In the process I added about 50' of coax to the tuner in the sat receiver. With the added coax I still gained about 7 points on all channels.

When our shipment of antennas came on Thursday, I brought a 4228 home to try. It gained me another 5 or 6 points across the board. I redirected toward Montreal & Sherbrooke with the 4228 and got a big fat zero. I'm right at the base of Bear Mtn, so I already thought I'd be SOL for the Canadian stations. All of these readings are with no amping. I guess I'll just us a gable mount and put up the 4221 and forget the rotor or amp.

According to antennaweb I'm at 235 degrees and 40.8 miles from the towers.

We put up a couple of 4228 for customers yesterday on Eagle Point on Lake Memphremagog. The first one, we'd put up a 4221 the day before, but weren't pulling in 22. Signals on the other channels were high 70s for 3 & 44, mid 60s on 33. Replacing the 4221 with a 4228 brought 3/33/44 up about 12 points each and 22 is in the low-mid 70s. No amping, diplexed into a Dish 622 sat receiver on the existing 40' of RG-6. This customer sits in a field on the opposite side of the road of the rich lake property owners.

2nd customer. Lives on the lake. We installed a 4228. We were getting 60+ dbu on 3(53) at the antenna on one of our BTPDA-2s. Used an existing coax, about 100', signal dropped to 40 dbu at the tuner. 3 and 44 were the only channels we could get a lock on, 33 was dropping in and out. Dropped a new test cable through the door, not much improvement. Added a 0064 and bam, all is well. 3 is at 99-100, 22 is 80, 33 still seems to have issues at 75, 44 is 92. Reconnected the "old" coax, rolled up the test lead, got paid and left. :)

Both these customers are at 236 @ 44.7 miles according to antennaweb.

At both places I redirected toward Canada and only at the 2nd place did I get the meter to even budge off the "Power to low" message, but barely. Owl's Head or Bear Mtn iacross the lake are most likely blocking reception.

I got this response when I emailed wvny about not getting their signal:

WVNY's digital signal is VHF. The antenna that you use needs to be
compatible with that type of signal in order to receive it. If you are
currently using a UHF antenna, then that is why you are noticing that it
is not effectively picking up the signal.
We have heard many comments from other Montreal residents that relay
confirmation of signal receipt. As a matter of fact, we had to "reign
in" our signal by slightly redirecting it because it was reaching too
far into Canada.
I suggest that you keep trying. Perhaps putting the antenna on the roof
would also help, to ensure no obstruction of the signal.

Sara Carpenter
Director of Programming
WVNY-ABC22

Keep those messages to WVNY coming to my PM. It's going very well!!!

I got this response when I emailed wvny about not getting their signal:

WVNY's digital signal is VHF. The antenna that you use needs to be
compatible with that type of signal in order to receive it. If you are
currently using a UHF antenna, then that is why you are noticing that it
is not effectively picking up the signal.
We have heard many comments from other Montreal residents that relay
confirmation of signal receipt. As a matter of fact, we had to "reign
in" our signal by slightly redirecting it because it was reaching too
far into Canada.
I suggest that you keep trying. Perhaps putting the antenna on the roof
would also help, to ensure no obstruction of the signal.

Sara Carpenter
Director of Programming
WVNY-ABC22

What is that? I never heard of nobody in Montreal getting the signal, on south shore yes but Montreal none. Can you give the e-mail address here so we could give that lady some feedback.

Ok so I just went to the mall to get my haircut and of course I couldn't help stopping into Radioshack to see what they had for antennas. I bought the Philips Silver Sensor a couple months ago at Circuit City. Long story short the Silver Sensor just got boxed back up and has been instantly replaced with the Radio Shack "Cat. 15-892" (I think that's the model number anyway - only thing I could find on the box). Anyway for the same price as the silver sensor (49.99) this thing so far blows the sensor away. It has an internal rotating multi-directional antenna, a backlit LCD display, adustable gain (up to 22db), a fricken remote, and the ability to save directional settings. Are you kidding me? Anyway, with the gain on level one, I now receive all channels crystal-clear, where before with the sensor I was having to move it around a bit if I changed channels. And one more thing - I haven't even messed with moving the direction of the antenna yet.

Side Note: My wife did say "What the hell is that thing?" In case you haven't seen it yet, it looks like a thin black flying saucer on a stand. Kind of funny looking - but kind of retro though.

Ok so I just went to the mall to get my haircut and of course I couldn't help stopping into Radioshack to see what they had for antennas. I bought the Philips Silver Sensor a couple months ago at Circuit City. Long story short the Silver Sensor just got boxed back up and has been instantly replaced with the Radio Shack "Cat. 15-892" (I think that's the model number anyway - only thing I could find on the box). Anyway for the same price as the silver sensor (49.99) this thing so far blows the sensor away. It has an internal rotating multi-directional antenna, a backlit LCD display, adustable gain (up to 22db), a fricken remote, and the ability to save directional settings. Are you kidding me? Anyway, with the gain on level one, I now receive all channels crystal-clear, where before with the sensor I was having to move it around a bit if I changed channels. And one more thing - I haven't even messed with moving the direction of the antenna yet.

Side Note: My wife did say "What the hell is that thing?" In case you haven't seen it yet, it looks like a thin black flying saucer on a stand. Kind of funny looking - but kind of retro though.

Nothing beats a picture

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?parentPage=search&summary=summary&cp=&accessories=accessories&productId=2131034&kw=antenna&techSpecs=techSpecs&currentTab=features&custRatings=custRatings&features=features&origkw=antenna&support=support&tab=summary

Side Note: My wife did say "What the hell is that thing?" In case you haven't seen it yet, it looks like a thin black flying saucer on a stand. Kind of funny looking - but kind of retro though.[/QUOTE]

Scott, my wife said the same thing when she saw it. It does work nicely though.

I just came from the mall and looked at that very same antenna at Radio Shack. I am using the Phillips amped indoor and am having mixed results. I can say the salesman wouldnt give me ANY useful information and basically said my Phillips should work by placing in the attick. I live in the new north end of Burlington and can get cax great, VPT good, FFF ok and VNY nada. Maybe I will give the flying saucer a shot!

Has anyone tried the Philips version of the Silver Sensor? It has rabbit ears for VHF, so I was wondering if that would work any better than the Zenith for VNY?


CableGuy,
I have the phillips, VNY @ 72% in Essex Junction. Indoors.

I got this response when I emailed wvny about not getting their signal:

WVNY's digital signal is VHF. The antenna that you use needs to be
compatible with that type of signal in order to receive it. If you are
currently using a UHF antenna, then that is why you are noticing that it
is not effectively picking up the signal.
We have heard many comments from other Montreal residents that relay
confirmation of signal receipt. As a matter of fact, we had to "reign
in" our signal by slightly redirecting it because it was reaching too
far into Canada.
I suggest that you keep trying. Perhaps putting the antenna on the roof
would also help, to ensure no obstruction of the signal.

Sara Carpenter
Director of Programming
WVNY-ABC22

They're playing with the facts. They "reigned in" their signal (with a directional antenna) because they PREDICTED it would reach too far into Canada. They never actually broadcasted a signal that reached farther into Canada than the current one.

Also, who are these supposed "many Montreal residents" that can receive the signal? As far as I know, the only ones who know that their digital signal exists are those on this forum or on DHC. Those people would have posted their results here if that was really the case.

Also, I hate that the first thing they assume is that we don't have VHF antennas. They think we're stupid when we actually know more than them. They still insist that their signal is so great and that more people are able to receive it than analog channel 22. What a bunch of ostriches!

DB4 is connected and right now is no better than amped philips. Getting some analog with fox 44 being the best. Gonna have to try a preamp. how much could it be a lousy tuner? :(

You are in Vermont! Under normal circumstances, why would you need a pre-amp when you're practically living next to the transmitter?

WVNY should be the ones adapting to reach all of their viewers!

I just performed another test by changing the tuner from the HTL-HD that I've used at both locations to a Samsung SIR-T151 I had on a secondary TV.

The result: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! No Signal, just an occasional blip but no pixels and not even enough to register PSIP data. The 3 UHF ones from Mansfield are all coming in with 9 bars.

You are in Vermont! Under normal circumstances, why would you need a pre-amp when you're practically living next to the transmitter?


WVNY should be the ones adapting to reach all of their viewers!


I'm not getting anything from the mountain!
In St.Albans

Are you talking about WVNY or all of them? If it's the latter you're probably in a "white area" due to terrain.

Oh, wasn't your terrific VHF signal supposed to bend beyond terrain obstructions and reach everywhere where UHF won't, WVNY??? :rolleyes:

For my fellow Quebecois, can you try pointing your antennas north-east to see if CKTM analog is still coming in on channel 13? My rotor isn't installed right now.

OK, got my DB4 pointing somewhere near the right direction, Mt. Mansfield. It's UHf and I'm getting some analog signal from channels 3 and 5 and 12. Pretty good picture on 27 and 44 not bad on 22 but not real good from 33 . But I can't get any HD stations but PBS from across the lake. It's only a 50ft run but I'll try to amplify signal to tuner tomorrow. Any thoughts?

OK, got my DB4 pointing somewhere near the right direction, Mt. Mansfield. It's UHf and I'm getting some analog signal from channels 3 and 5 and 12. Pretty good picture on 27 and 44 not bad on 22 but not real good from 33 . But I can't get any HD stations but PBS from across the lake. It's only a 50ft run but I'll try to amplify signal to tuner tomorrow. Any thoughts?
When folks say they are picking up channels 3, 5 and 12 with a DB4, are they talking about the Antennas Direct DB4 UHF? I live 13.5 miles from the towers with direct LOS and I only pick up UHF with my DB4. I have a low-band VHF antenna that picks up 3, 5 & 6. But I only get 22, 33, 44 and 53 with my DB4, including the HD signals of VPT, WCAX and WFFF with meter readings of 88-98%

When folks say they are picking up channels 3, 5 and 12 with a DB4, are they talking about the Antennas Direct DB4 UHF? I live 13.5 miles from the towers with direct LOS and I only pick up UHF with my DB4. I have a low-band VHF antenna that picks up 3, 5 & 6. But I only get 22, 33, 44 and 53 with my DB4, including the HD signals of VPT, WCAX and WFFF with meter readings of 88-98%
Yes I am picking up a few vhf (5,10 and12) stations with my DB4. I am now getting the VPT stations along with the 57s. Still no luck with networks, not optimistic.

Yes I am picking up a few vhf (5,10 and12) stations with my DB4. I am now getting the VPT stations along with the 57s. Still no luck with networks, not optimistic.
You are getting some stations I don't because of your location. Manfield is about 160 degrees from the center of St Albans at 23.5 miles but something must be blocking you because www.antennaweb.org didn't show any of the HD stations until I entered an antenna height of 500 feet. Even then it indicated you need a purple coded directional antenna and pre-amplifier for Mt Mansfield digital broadcasts. The DB4 is a medium range multi-directional. You need a long range directional at the least. Check antennaweb.org yourself so you can enter your exact location and particulars such as altitude.

You are getting some stations I don't because of your location. Manfield is about 160 degrees from the center of St Albans at 23.5 miles but something must be blocking you because www.antennaweb.org didn't show any of the HD stations until I entered an antenna height of 500 feet. Even then it indicated you need a purple coded directional antenna and pre-amplifier for Mt Mansfield digital broadcasts. The DB4 is a medium range multi-directional. You need a long range directional at the least. Check antennaweb.org yourself so you can enter your exact location and particulars such as altitude.

It says i need the largest to get ETK which I already get it's the others i don't. My house location may be a problem :(
St. Albans Hill may more of a problem than anticpated

Are you talking about WVNY or all of them? If it's the latter you're probably in a "white area" due to terrain.

Oh, wasn't your terrific VHF signal supposed to bend beyond terrain obstructions and reach everywhere where UHF won't, WVNY??? :rolleyes:

For my fellow Quebecois, can you try pointing your antennas north-east to see if CKTM analog is still coming in on channel 13? My rotor isn't installed right now.


In Repentigny,Qc, I catch CKTM-TV on channel 13, but there are a little bit of snow in the picture the station is 65 miles away.

In Repentigny,Qc, I catch CKTM-TV on channel 13, but there are a little bit of snow in the picture the station is 65 miles away.

Nop I don't get nothing on channel 13 from St-Eustache.

In Repentigny,Qc, I catch CKTM-TV on channel 13, but there are a little bit of snow in the picture the station is 65 miles away.

If CFCF was causing interference problems, you wouldn't have been able to view CKTM, and if WVNY's signal was strong enough, it should have canceled out CKTM.

WVNY is too weak! When the (bleep) are they going to admit it???

I live in Malletts Bay, VT, *almost* line of site of Mt. Mansfield. I'm getting all stations, except WVNY-DT. I've determined that for now (the next couple of months), I'll just deal without ABC. It is pretty sad though, as I've finally gotten my VHF rabbit ears to pick up a pretty decent signal of WCAX-3 analog, but even aimed and set that way, I still can't get the pathetically low signal from WVNY-DT :)

Ah well, one less channel I'll have to surf over.. :)

You are in Vermont! Under normal circumstances, why would you need a pre-amp when you're practically living next to the transmitter?

WVNY should be the ones adapting to reach all of their viewers!

If you ask me, the whole issue of digital broadcasting in Vt has been one of "Oh well, we'll get there eventually". It's like there's no sense of competition.

Of course they haven't really had to compete against each other since they formed their "coalition" but one would think they'd be trying to outdo each other now for viewership.

I just don't understand it. WVNY had to know that being the only one using VHF would have put it at a definite disadvantage. Now when people contact them with reception problems, their first inclination is to assume the caller is doing something wrong. Of course Sara is only a sales coordinator for WVNY & WFFF and my sense was that she doesn't really understand the technical aspects. Still, they should really be more open to resolving some of these problems.

Maybe the number of viewers they get to claim for determining advertising rates is theoretical, so they don't really care how many actually get their signal.