bump, anyone?

Hi hope you guys can help. I have just purchased velodyne spl1000r to go with my b&w cm7s. Any suggestions on crossover setting on Rotel 1057? Also If using the recievers crossover should I have the low pass dial turned all the way counter clockwise to disable the subs crossover or should i be using both? The velo is replacing a b&w asw600 and doesn't seem to be integrating as well as i would hope. Thanks in advance for any help.

Hi,
I would suggest calling the B&W's small, set the Rotel's crossover at 80hz and bypass the Velodyne's crossover. You might experiment with sub placement. You might also need to raise the volume in your receiver for the subwoofer jack.
Thanks,
Curt (928) 858-4430

I've got a 10+ year-old F1500R that is starting to get a little flaky. Sometimes it will only generate very low level, fluttery bass, but a power cycle will usually restore it. If I turn the volume up to see if it is perhaps a dirty volume control the amp will cut off and I need to power cycle it (again.)

Velodyne says to replace it with the (smaller) DD-12, but like many I've been eyeing the refurbed SPL-1500R available from a few retailers.

Anyone have any suggestions? The sub is for surround LFE only, and isn't used for music, but I'd like to stick with Velodyne as I've been thrilled with my F1500R all these years.

Thanks in advance…

kucharsk,

I believe we were together in the LST-3410A forum. If not, please forgive me. I have an 1800R that I would not get rid of ever. 3 years ago, Velodyne repaired the amp for me. It needed new diodes in the rectifier bridge. Yours sounds like it needs new power supply capacitors. If Velodyne no longer services these amps, open it up from the back and start replacing capacitors.

Yep, past LST-3410A owner here!

Thanks, I may try that, though as always it's a pain to source new caps these days.

I suppose it's time to place a Digi-Key order...

If the front wall is not an option, where is the best placement for the SC-IW? Would you choose sides vs. rear placement? Is one enough for a room approx 2,500 cu ft?

Hi,
I would lean toward the rear wall and go with two in-walls. One amplifier (SC-1250) can power two SC-IW's. If you haven't already seen it, there is an excellent in-depth review of the installation and performance of the Velodyne in-wall sub by Ray Atkins, Custom Installer, in Audioholics (www.audioholics.com).
Curt (928) 858-4430 or curt@velodyne.com

Was wondering if perhaps someone affiliated w/Velodyne would have a better idea on my question posted previously in the forum (would delete the thread but did not find the option...would link to it but do not have 5 posts), or some suggestions on further information:

-------------

This year, my Velodyne (CT-80) sub started having fits where it would stop producing any bass and would pop here and there. Tried different buildings/outlets, same result. Seems like if I would push on the back panel, it would clear up for a bit and be fine, but then it would come back.


After a lot of troubleshooting, it seems to be related to the phase switch possibly being loose. If I wedge something in the small open space above the physical switch on the back, it behaves ok for longer periods of time, only to act up if I'm at pretty high volume. Also, when it acts up, I can hold the phase switch and it will more or less be fine until I let go.


I'm not very knowledgeable in the realm of EE/working on circuit boards, but upon inspection it seems the box that the phase switch goes into that interfaces with the board is a little loose...but I don't see that any soldiering points are obviously broken or anything. Does anyone have any suggestions on what I could do to try to remedy the problem? It's 8 years old, so unless it's a really cheap fix, I'd rather not take it to the shop. Thanks in advance.

Hi,
Your best bet for advice on this is Dave Santos, Velodyne service manager.
(408) 465-2819 or dave.santos@velodyne.com
Thanks
Curt (928) 858-4430 or curt@velodyne.com

I just purchased a DD-15 and before my question, I must say this thing is amazing. I am using it with Paradigm's Signature S2 version 2 speakers and it blends so well with the S2's both cosmetically and sonically.

I first upgraded the software and have run through the setup with the mic, which is simple and straight forward, but regarding the volume on the remote, if I am watching a movie or listening to a CD, etc., and want to adjust the volume of the sub, is that volume stored for the next time I start up the sub? I have been remembering how many times I click the volume up or down so I can readjust to its original position before powering down so I don't lose my programmed volumes, but I suspect it is only a temporary setting and not a stored one.

Would someone mind confirming this?

Thanks,

Hi,
Your best bet for advice on this is Dave Santos, Velodyne service manager.




Thanks Curt, I'll shoot Dave an email.

Hi there,

I am contemplating buying the Velodyne SMS-1 but I've heard reports that there is a steep roll off below 25 hz even with the latest software revision.

Could the guys from Velodyne please step in and explain what is happening and if there is going to be software to prevent this from happening ? Because my decision hinges on this. I don't want my subwoofers to have output below 25 hz removed.

I have a PB12 Ultra set to 20 hz tune and according to a number of people and threads posted around here, there is a rather steep roll off below about 25 hz. Please comment and explain what is happening.

Hi,
As I recall, it's down about 1.5db at 20hz and about 5-6db down at 15hz. We may address this in the next software update. At the moment I do not have a date for the next software release. In the meantime you can utilize one or more EQ bars (parametric mode) to address this in the 15-20hz area. IMO, relatively flat response to 20hz satisfies the needs of most all users and there are very few subwoofers with much amplitude at or below 20hz utilized in home systems. I'm certainly aware there are some users who want response below that and we will certainly look at addressing that issue.
Thanks,
Curt (928) 858-4430

Hi curt !

I was a bit worried because as I far as I know, quite a few users were in shock because of the steep roll off. There is a thread on home theater hifi detailing the roll off even with a 5 hz filter.

I think the main thread that I read that got me worried was this one :

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/diy-subwoofers/2041-required-spl-10hz-2.html

Please check that thread out and confirm with me that a software update can correct for the steep roll off below 25 hz. Thank you. Again, I was almost 100% convinced to buy this but as of late, users have been complaining that the roll off starts at 25 hz and graphs have been posted confirming this.

So if you could double check and perhaps give me some reassurance that a software update can fix these issues then I'll be good to go. Thanks !

Hi,
The numbers I gave you are what I know to be and I would not describe that as steep roll-off. Being down only 1.5db at 20hz would not normally be described as a 'steep' roll-off starting at 25hz. When I get a definitive answer as to addressing this I will let you know.
Curt (928) 858-4430

Thank you for responding ! I agree wholeheartedly that 1.5 dB is not what anyone would call "steep" but according to the links, the graphs posted on that site have people more than a little concerned.

If you can get to the bottom of this and possibly with a fix I would appreciate it. Thanks !

Heinrich,

As a long time user of speakers designed to explore the thrill of canon fire, explosions and cathedral organs, I can assure you that no human being will ever be able to hear or feel any difference at these frequencies. Below 25 Hz we feel rather than hear. A difference of 1.5 dB is not something my body can percieve. Besides an 18" Velodyne sub, I own two VMPS Super Tower III Speakers. These provide visible and maybe useful output to 17 Hz. (I can see the cones moving). 7 years ago, I owned 4 of these magnificent beauties. One day I had an ADCOM 565 350 watt Amp blow. It welded the 4 drivers that comprise the bass end of these beauties. Repair would have cost over 5K dollars so I gave them away.
All of this could have been prevented with a low frequency filter of the type Velodyne has included in their sub. If you drop a needle on a record, have a motor start on the same circuit or even switch on a high current device, yo may generate a DC type pulse that will cook any speakers.

If you don't believe me, do a test. Get a signal generator and dial in one of these low frequencies. Change the gain and tell me what you hear or feel. I think that will resolve your concern.

I'm not complaining about a 1.5 dB roll off. It's just that people are not complaining about that either. If it were so small then there would be nothing to worry about.

Please have a look at the thread (below) and make of it what you will. I spoke to Curt and he assures me that he will look into the situation. But the problem is apparently not small otherwise people would not be that concerned about it.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4640&highlight=SMS-1

Thanks !

Hi,
The big concern here is some DIYer's want flat response to 5hz or even DC. The current SMS-1 has been designed for the more normal user. There are very few subs that have much energy below 20hz and the SMS is fairly flat to 20hz and not down very much at 15 hz. IMO, it's not wise to eliminate some sort of protection via a subsonic filter or other filtering. However, as I told you we will weigh the pros and cons and demands and address it at a future date. In your case with your bass reflex design subwoofer tuned to 20hz you would not notice any difference at all. Bass reflex designs have an 18db roll-off below tuning frequency and you should not (boost) eq at or below that tuning point. A few DIYer's with several large drivers in a very large enclosure (Infinite Baffle) want to try for flat output down to or below 10 hz. This can certainly lead to problems in the wrong hands. As Art points out humans don't hear much below 25-30hz and even then the signal would have to be at a very high amplitude with very low harmonic distortion to be audible.
When I have an answer, I will let you know.
Thanks,
Curt (928) 858-4430

Heinrich,

In 1975, I bought and still use as my rear channels two Electrovoice Sentry III speakers. For those not familiar with these they were the first Thiel aligned speakers on the market. They consist of a 15" woofer in a bass reflex enclosure that crosses over to a 25"x10 sectoral horn and at 1500Hz to the famous EV ST350 tweeter. The speaker was designed to be used in two configurations. The first left two ports open and maximized low end SPL. The second alignment called for one closed port and an SEQ equalizer to raise the downsloping low end with a 6dB boost at 32Hz. This resulted in an extra octave of usable output to almost 25Hz -6dB. EV incorporated a steep 4 pole butterworth filter to kill anything below 20Hz because down there you run into vinyl warp and needle drops that can fry a woofer and and other unprotected drivers very fast.

Bottom line is that 32 years later, my guests ask me to play those EV's over the STIII's that have cone movement to below 17Hz. The low end sound is very clean, almost as clean as the Velodyne F1800R I use as an LFE channel. I have pictures on my walls above the speakers of their big brothers, the Sentry 4. These were used extensively at EPCOT in FL. They used 2 15" woofers in a bass reflex cabinet. They did not use the SEQ but did incorporate a low end roll off filter and the same tweeter protector used in the III's.

Please, consider what you are asking Velodyne to provide you by eliminating the low end filter, blown woofers, overstressed voice-coils and expensive repairs. You do not need anything below 25Hz.

Thanks for your input ! Although I disagree with your statement about not needing anything below 25 hz. In fact, I believe there is substantial content recorded below 25 hz. This is why the big velodyne subwoofers exist.

If you check out several of the bass threads on this forum you'll see charts showing how much deep bass is present in the sound tracks. It will amaze you how much content has bass below 20 hz extending to the single digits.

Now whether that information was intended or not (single digits), is unclear. But bass down to around 15 hz is still worthwhile to shoot for, especially if the director intended it to be there.

Curt, thank you again. I'll probably order one in the next week. I just hope that you will give us the option of perhaps defeating the subsonic filter if one chooses.

I understand that it isn't viable especially when extreme output is concerned with ported designs but at least then the user can decide if he or she wants to use said limiter. Again, thanks for both your input.

Cheers.

I just placed an order with my local dealer for 2 SPL-1000Rs. These are replacing a single Mirage BPS-400 which was killed by a lightning strike. The Mirage was awesome in a 19 X 15 X10 (ceiling) dedicated hometheater. The other speakers are DeF Tech 7006's, CLR 2300, and 4 BPX-1.2. Will the 2 Velos do an adequate job of replacing the Mirage? Any suggestions on placement? I had the Mirage in the front left corner. Thanks.

Hi,
Given the limited information it's hard to say. I'm not familar with your Mirage and if it was a sealed box or bass reflex design. Two SPL-1000's in 3000 cubic feet should do a good job. Keep in mind they are small sealed boxes and will not have the output of a bass reflex design. They are very accurate. If your room has permanent openings into other rooms, then that's a different story. Other things to consider;1) Is it primarily H/T or music? 2) What types of music or H/T? 3) How loud do you listen? At to placement I would suggest starting in corners. If you have time, call me tomorrow and we can discuss proper subwoofer selection at length. This offer is always open to all.
Thanks,
Curt (928) 858-4430 or curt@velodyne.com

I have used an SMS-1 for LFE for about 18 months. I immediately installed the firmware update for the subsonic filter (reducing it from the original 15hz). I had PRESUMED this resolved any issues I would have down into the 12hz area - reading this (and the linked threads) is pretty startling! Given the cost/sohpistication of the SMS-1, I would PRESUME it to be state-of-the-art both in terms of intuitiveness and performance. My guess is that most people purchasing an SMS-1 have proportional expenditures in subwoofer investment with the SMS-1 comprising 10%-25% of total cost. At this level of investment mid-teens (or lower) response is the expectation!!

Hopefully, more discussion can produce a firmware fix for this flaw....at the SMS-1 equipment level, subsonic filters and rolloff need to be user configurable!

Thanks for the response. I will give you a call to discuss. The Mirage was a sealed box with 2 12" bipolar woofers with a 400 watt amp. It was large and weighted over 90 lbs or so. Its output was as much feel as sound. An old WideScreen review of subs gave it a highly recommended but that was over 5 years ago and I know technology has greatly improved.

The HT room does not have any opennings, two French doors that are shut when a movie is on. The room is used only for movies, usually action type movies. I listen at reasonable levels but I do on occasion crank it up on large crash or explosion scenes. Thanks.

I am looking at picking up a DD-15 as a possibility, but had a question about how to handle my configuration. Right now, I have two preamps that share the Front L/R speakers. My HT prepro is a B&K Ref 50 - on the HT inputs (Dish/DVD), it routes the Front L/R to my music Preamp (PS Audio PCA2) which uses the HT bypass to let the signal go to the speakers. I have a sub that I use in HT settings only and is connected to the B&K sub output. I currently have the Front L/R pair running as Large (full range).

If I purchase the DD-15, I wanted to run them for HT and music. I know that you are only supposed to use one of the inputs on the DD-15, so I was wondering if the following would work:

1. Use the B&K for HT and set the Front L/R speakers to small and then have the B&K use the XLR output into the DD-15 input.
2. Use the PS Audio PCA-2 secondary output RCAs and have them go to the DD-15 RCA inputs.

When in music mode, the DD-15 will not see the B&K sub output, since there should be no signal on it.
In HT mode, the small setting of the Front L/R should mean that no sub 80Hz info makes it to the DD-15 and that the sub XLR input should have all the 80Hz and below signal.

My restrictions are that I cannot require wire swapping to switch between systems and I cannot support 2 subwoofers in my room or budget. My hope would be that I could select input by remote and then tell the DD-15 which channel to use.

I am sure that my setup is not unique - anyone else solve this dilemma? Help!

-MA

Hi,
You are correct that we do not recommend multiple inputs. One of the problems is that your two input devices are both on or could be on, or in standby. No doubt some users are doing what you propose or something similar. I would suggest a custom outboard switching box as the safest alternative. BTW, the different inputs of the DD's are not remote selectable. We sum all inputs. (I'm not sure if you meant select input or output by remote.)
Thanks,
Curt (928) 858-4430

I did mean select input. Do you know any Remote controllable switcher(s) that you would recommend that would not degrade sound too much?

If you are doing voltage summing, my proposal should be pretty safe. I did not know if you were using a sense and relay type of switch. The manual does go through the order of input preference.

Hi,
I don't know of any remote control switching devices. Some other members might. There are some used preamps out there (NAD comes to mind) that should work just fine.
Thanks,
Curt (928) 858-4430

That's what I need - a third Preamp :) I will look at how this might come together - I will measure the outputs of the other preamps - if they are clean, I would probably go with the simple summed inputs. If not, I will look for a IR audio only switcher...sigh.

Please, consider what you are asking Velodyne to provide you by eliminating the low end filter, blown woofers, overstressed voice-coils and expensive repairs. You do not need anything below 25Hz.

as long as the user does not use any EQ boost down low (tuning point) ... the subwoofer wouldn't be in ANY more danger than it would be if it didn't have the SMS-1.

so I don't think it's a good idea to put a filter or whatever to "try" and protect our subs.

Breaking news for SMS-1 buyers ! The subsonic filter is going to be disabled completely (for whose who want the ability to do so) ! That's right. By the end of September, the latest software revision will be up.

Thanks Curt !

Great new.

Yeah, I know. I've ordered an SMS-1 and it will arrive on Monday. I'm just glad that Velodyne decided to do this. It's probably not a major concern or anything but for those people that value every last drop of deep bass output, I'm sure it will put a smile on their faces.

Breaking news for SMS-1 buyers ! The subsonic filter is going to be disabled completely (for whose who want the ability to do so) ! That's right. By the end of September, the latest software revision will be up.

Thanks Curt !

hell yeah, just in time for my dual SVS 16+ setup tuned to 12hz

thanks Heinrich and Velodyne

-Gary

as long as the user does not use any EQ boost down low (tuning point) ... the subwoofer wouldn't be in ANY more danger than it would be if it didn't have the SMS-1.

so I don't think it's a good idea to put a filter or whatever to "try" and protect our subs.

These low end equalizers do wind up imputting massive amounts of boost unless they are limited from doing so because most if not every low end reproducer drops of well above 25Hz. So what happens is that a massive amount of current is applied to the voice coil at frequencies you can not here or even feel. The net result is blown voice coils that cost a fortune to repair. I know of what I speak. In my younger days I purchased a Norman Laboratories Equalizer designed to provide the "Lost Low End" to Dynaco A25's. Application of the equalizer resulted in a 6dB boost centered at 42Hz that gradually tailed off to a 0 dB boost at 100Hz. It featured a steep rolloff below 32Hz to protect the woofer. Thinking that I knew more than the designers, I inserted da parametric equalizer in its place with no rolloff below 32Hz. Need I say more?

My Electrovoice Sentry III's used an SEQ Equalizer with a similarly designed low end boost. This time the center frequency was 32 Hz. A steep rolloff in this unit prevented driving of the woofer beyond its linear range. In 32 years, I have never had a meltdown like the one I suffered with my VMPS STIII's. Because I failed to incorporate low end protection, I welded 3 voice coils to the magnet listening to rock and roll.

I believe Velodyne is giving its clientele what they have asked for. Sometimes though y just have to ke the candy away from the children.

Breaking news for SMS-1 buyers ! The subsonic filter is going to be disabled completely (for whose who want the ability to do so) ! That's right. By the end of September, the latest software revision will be up.

Thanks Curt !


EXXXXCELLLLENT SMITHERS!

These low end equalizers do wind up imputting massive amounts of boost unless they are limited from doing so because most if not every low end reproducer drops of well above 25Hz. So what happens is that a massive amount of current is applied to the voice coil at frequencies you can not here or even feel. The net result is blown voice coils that cost a fortune to repair. I know of what I speak. In my younger days I purchased a Norman Laboratories Equalizer designed to provide the "Lost Low End" to Dynaco A25's. Application of the equalizer resulted in a 6dB boost centered at 42Hz that gradually tailed off to a 0 dB boost at 100Hz. It featured a steep rolloff below 32Hz to protect the woofer. Thinking that I knew more than the designers, I inserted da parametric equalizer in its place with no rolloff below 32Hz. Need I say more?...

I believe Velodyne is giving its clientele what they have asked for. Sometimes though y just have to ke the candy away from the children.

are you talking about "low end" as in cheap? or low frequency?

correct me if I'm wrong, but if the sms-1 adds low end boosts out of the box ... i'd say there was something is wrong with it.

if the sms-1 loses the subsonic filter, my subwoofer is no way MORE in danger of bottoming than without the sms-1. <- please agree or disagree with this statement
taking candy away from children? maybe from people who actually destroy their subs with sine waves?

your sub was destroyed without a 32hz filter? errrr ... how decent is that subwoofer?

if the sms-1 loses the subsonic filter, my subwoofer is no way MORE in danger of bottoming than without the sms-1. <- please agree or disagree with this statement


The statement is true, unless you use the SMS to boost the low frequencies using EQ. We'll have caveats with the new firmware anyway, though... ;)

Bruce,

Isn't the SMS a low end equalizer and if you "equalize" with it, don't you "boost" the range of frequencies the subsonic filter affects? Are you saying that one should not boost the frequencies below a certain frequency? If you are, then I understand and if your customers heed your warnings, the subwoofers should survive. If they do not and instead use the SMS to raise the gain of the "rumble frequencies", then I forsee problems. From my point of vue this looks like one of those points of disagreement between marketing and engineering. Engineering always loses. I to read those caveats and learn how Velodyne will deal with these issues.

Bruce, I just want to say thanks for addressing the concerns that some of us have about the low frequency roll off. Like I've said before, it's not a major concern (unless you have an IB).

Again, thanks ! Any idea when you might be able to incorporate real time analysis from 200 hz and up ? :D

Art,

I have two Velodyne subs which have internal subsonic filters that can actually go lower if not passed through the SMS-1. I think Bruce is just trying to get it where the SMS-1 doesn't decrease bottom end performance.

I think you also have to use your brain some. Don't try to make your sub do something it was never intended to do by overdriving a very low frequency to the point of distruction.

Bruce, I just want to say thanks for addressing the concerns that some of us have about the low frequency roll off. Like I've said before, it's not a major concern (unless you have an IB).

Again, thanks ! Any idea when you might be able to incorporate real time analysis from 200 hz and up ? :D

yeah, I'm willing to buy another unit just for the mains :)

(we need both speaker in outs [binding posts] and line in outs ; 12v trigger )

The statement is true, unless you use the SMS to boost the low frequencies using EQ. We'll have caveats with the new firmware anyway, though... ;)

thank you very much! :)

OK, here's a question:

As I mentioned a few pages ago, I've got an F1500R that has some amp issues.

However, I'm also looking at perhaps taking this opportunity to upgrade to something that will bring a bit more low end heft to my room.

It's roughly 1700 cubic feet but is open on one side to a kitchen and hallway.

Velodyne's site recommends a DD-12 to replace an F1500R, but I'm thinkng a DD-15 might be a better match. At the same time, I can't say that I'm not swayed by the positive reviews the JL Audio Fathom f113 has been receiving lately.

Has anyone had the chance to compare the f113 and DD-15? Is a DD-12 really the preferred replacement for an F1500R?

I know this is a Velodyne group, so I'm hoping for some input from the pro-Velodyne side rather than the extremely positive spin JL Audio's been receiving.

Thanks in advance.

kucharsk,

I auditioned the F113 in a high end home theater store with the plan that I would be upgrading my velodynes. Unless I had a phenominally bad demo, I thought the F113 was a joke and a good example of why you need to go hear these things for yourself. I walked away from the demo thinking that I was glad that I didn't order them based on the hype and that I hadn't blown $6K on some subs that weren't as good as what I already had..

At this point in time, I'd stick with Velodynes.

OK, here's a question:

As I mentioned a few pages ago, I've got an F1500R that has some amp issues.

However, I'm also looking at perhaps taking this opportunity to upgrade to something that will bring a bit more low end heft to my room.

It's roughly 1700 cubic feet but is open on one side to a kitchen and hallway.

Velodyne's site recommends a DD-12 to replace an F1500R, but I'm thinkng a DD-15 might be a better match. At the same time, I can't say that I'm not swayed by the positive reviews the JL Audio Fathom f113 has been receiving lately.

Has anyone had the chance to compare the f113 and DD-15? Is a DD-12 really the preferred replacement for an F1500R?

I know this is a Velodyne group, so I'm hoping for some input from the pro-Velodyne side rather than the extremely positive spin JL Audio's been receiving.

Thanks in advance.

Hi,
While a DD-12 does have as much output as a F-1500R, I would recommend the DD-15. It will not only play louder but will provide more of the deep bass you're looking for. If your total cubic displacement, counting the kitchen and hall is 3500 cubic feet or more, you might consider the DD-18. I'm available for phone calls tomorrow and will be happy to help.
Curt (928) 858-4430 or curt@velodyne.com

I think the F112 is more comparable to the DD-15. I have compared (in home) the DD-18 to the F113 and I preferred the DD-18 by a small margin. I am currently running dual F113’s (with an SMS-1) and I chose the Fathoms due to their smaller size rather than performance or sound issues. Velodynes main advantage is a more comprehensive built-in EQ (SMS vs. ARO). Having owned both Velodyne and JL subs, my bet is you would be happy with either one.

OK, here's a question:

As I mentioned a few pages ago, I've got an F1500R that has some amp issues.

However, I'm also looking at perhaps taking this opportunity to upgrade to something that will bring a bit more low end heft to my room.

It's roughly 1700 cubic feet but is open on one side to a kitchen and hallway.

Velodyne's site recommends a DD-12 to replace an F1500R, but I'm thinkng a DD-15 might be a better match. At the same time, I can't say that I'm not swayed by the positive reviews the JL Audio Fathom f113 has been receiving lately.

Has anyone had the chance to compare the f113 and DD-15? Is a DD-12 really the preferred replacement for an F1500R?

I know this is a Velodyne group, so I'm hoping for some input from the pro-Velodyne side rather than the extremely positive spin JL Audio's been receiving.

Thanks in advance.

kucharsk,

Hello again my old 3410A buddy. I own an F1800r and use it as the LFE channel in a room 50 ft long and 23 ft wide with 2 openings like you. Bigger is always better. Like Curt said the DD15 is probably what you want but the DD-18 is what you need and definitely what I would buy if I were to replace my beloved 18" wonder sub..

kucharsk,

Hello again my old 3410A buddy. I own an F1800r and use it as the LFE channel in a room 50 ft long and 23 ft wide with 2 openings like you. Bigger is always better. Like Curt said the DD15 is probably what you want but the DD-18 is what you need and definitely what I would buy if I were to replace my beloved 18" wonder sub.

Hello,

I am having some difficulties with my 8" SPL Series 2 subwoofer. It is not performing as it used to over the sub-direct feed, regardless of the settings on the sub itself. I have tested the sub with two receivers, both experience the same problem, and have fed it stereo audio from a CD player, and it performed very well, as well as the L&R pre-out from a receiver and it worked well there too.

Using a sub-direct feed, I used to have the sub set to +0dB in my receiver, and at about the 5th dot on the dial, and it was perfect. But now I have it at +12dB on the receiver (max) and at the max on the dial, and it still falls below what it used to be like.

I have discussed this problem in the following thread, if you wish to read all that I have tested.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11431188#post11431188


I am looking for advice or suggestions, and if we find something is wrong with it, I would like to send it in to get whatever that may be, repaired.

Thanks!

Hello again my old 3410A buddy. I own an F1800r and use it as the LFE channel in a room 50 ft long and 23 ft wide with 2 openings like you. Bigger is always better. Like Curt said the DD15 is probably what you want but the DD-18 is what you need and definitely what I would buy if I were to replace my beloved 18" wonder sub..
While I like the idea of the DD-18, its $1K price increase over the DD-15 is as breathtaking as the bass likely is. :D

With the kitchen and hall it's more like 3800 cubic feet, but I really don't need to fill the kitchen with sound (the dishes wouldn't appreciate it anyway. ;))

Hi,
The whole area will need to be "preassurized', in order to hear and feel the deep bass. The deep bass has long wave lengths which will escape to the open areas. The DD-15 will provide better response than the F-1500R, the DD-18 will do even better.
Curt (928) 858-4430

I am looking for advice or suggestions, and if we find something is wrong with it, I would like to send it in to get whatever that may be, repaired.

Thanks![/QUOTE]

Jomanscool2,
I sent you a PM.
Curt (930) 858-4430

Hi,
The whole area will need to be "preassurized', in order to hear and feel the deep bass. The deep bass has long wave lengths which will escape to the open areas. The DD-15 will provide better response than the F-1500R, the DD-18 will do even better.
Curt (928) 858-4430
Thanks... now to call my dealer and see if they have either available to listen to.

They do have an 1812, but that's a bit further out of the price range I had in mind. :D

I have a DD-15 and have been trying to get my Home Theater Master MX-500learning remote to learn the functions of the DD-15's remote. It will learn some but not all keys of the DD-15 remote. For instance. I can't get it to learn the preset # 1, 2, 3 or 6 or vol down. When I attempt to learn, the MX-500 gives me a signal telling me it has been learned, but in fact, it has not. I've tried using the same keys of the MX-500 that won't learn on keys from the DD remote that will work and it learns them with no problem. So, this tells me that it may be a communication issue with these particular keys from the DD remote. Has anyone come across this before? Do you know of any solution?

Thanks,

I have a DD-15 and have been trying to get my Home Theater Master MX-500learning remote to learn the functions of the DD-15's remote. It will learn some but not all keys of the DD-15 remote. For instance. I can't get it to learn the preset # 1, 2, 3 or 6 or vol down. When I attempt to learn, the MX-500 gives me a signal telling me it has been learned, but in fact, it has not. I've tried using the same keys of the MX-500 that won't learn on keys from the DD remote that will work and it learns them with no problem. So, this tells me that it may be a communication issue with these particular keys from the DD remote. Has anyone come across this before? Do you know of any solution?

Thanks,

I received the following from Velodyne:

"Yes this is a condition we are aware of. This is occuring because the command string from the DD remote transmitter is too long or too high in frequency for the Theater Master remote to emulate.
You might try speaking to the tech support staff at Theater Master to see if they have a work around for this. Some learning remotes have a jack located inside of the battery cover where code can be entered manually but I am not the person that could tell you how to go about doing that."

I just bought a SPL-800R. I have the subwoofer channel on my receiver set to 100HZ. The Velodyne manual states that if I use my receiver’s crossover along with the sub’s crossover then I should stagger the frequencies. The example given is that if I have the receiver set to 80HZ for the subwoofer channel, then I should set the sub’s crossover to 120HZ.

Can someone explain this to me? It seems to me that, in my case, if I have the receiver set to pass 100HZ and lower to the sub, how would the SPL’s crossover ever kick in if it’s set to 120HZ? Do I even need the sub’s crossover? I’ve read the manual, but still am a bit confused.

What about the Subwoofer Direct feature? Should I turn the knob all the way to implement it? But again, what would be the purpose of allowing frequencies of up to 200 HZ, when the receiver is only passing 100 HZ and below?

Any clarification would be greatly appreciated.

Hi,
It appears there is an error in the manual carried over from the earlier units where the maximum subwoofer setting was 120hz and there was no 'direct'. In your case set the subwoofer to 'direct' and the 100hz in your receiver is the crossover. Sorry for the confusion.
Thanks,
Curt (928) 858-4430 or curt@velodyne.com

what would be the purpose of allowing frequencies of up to 200 HZ, when the receiver is only passing 100 HZ and below?


you have a perfect understanding of what's going on when you set the crossovers that way ... what you need is the "why" the crossovers are staggered that way.

two crossovers are not supposed to overlap which is why one of them is set far away from the other crossover, the subwoofer cx in this case is set high or in direct so that it does not affect the receiver's cx.

staggering crossovers (settings close to each other) I believe increases the db/octave the crossovers' affect the signal ...

I will leave the "how" the crossovers affect the signal to the experts here.

Thank you curt c and ribbit; that is helpful. I'll set the crossover on the sub to direct.

Hello,

I buyed the Velodyne SMS-1 yesterday for a match with My Servo 15 V2. I had Harman Kardon AVR-745 receiver and I disable the Xover in the SMS-1 because I use it on my H/K.

Could I user Automatic setting (3-2-1) option on the remote or I need to setting up manually to have the best performance. I want to know if you had a good results with automatic setting? What is the best way for me to have a good result. I'm not very technical person.

furiousmen,

You will get better results performing a manual setup because you have more settings available.

Ok but what is the easy way....

furiousmen,

Depends on what you consider easy.

Obviously the automatic 3-2-1 is going to be easier than the manual method. For someone who has had an opportunity to play with the manual settings, I wouldn't consider it difficult. Actually, its kind of fun.

Hi,
3-2-1 is 'self-eq', not 'auto-eq'. In order to do auto or manual eq, you must run the eq outs (audio and video) into your receiver. Auto and Manual eq will provide better performance and much more flexibility. I suggest you become familiar with the manual before trying either auto or manual eq. This is one manual that must be read. You may of course give me a call.
Thanks,
Curt (928) 858-4430 or curt@velodyne.com

Furiousmen,
You might also check out the link below from one of our dealer's. Many users find it helpful in setting up the SMS-1. It starts off; DON'T PANIC.

http://pdf.outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/sms1guide.pdf

Thanks,
Curt (928) 858-4430

I need to run Auto Eq out on my receiver? Now I have cable out to the subwoofer from the SMS-1 and LFE in the SMS-1 from my Subwoofer receiver output. I need to have eq out from my SMS-1 to my receive and after that could I disconnect the cable??? Could you please just clarify....

Furiousmen,
You might also check out the link below from one of our dealer's. Many users find it helpful in setting up the SMS-1. It starts off; DON'T PANIC.

http://pdf.outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/sms1guide.pdf

Thanks,
Curt (928) 858-4430

Wow Thank's this manuel is verry helpful...It's more easy to follow with this one!!!

I'm considering getting a Y connector to use both the left (LFE) and right inputs on an SPL-800R. The manual says "for more signal use both inputs". How exactly will this benefit me? Will I get a better response? More bass? Or would I just be wasting $30 on a Y connector?

Is anyone else using both connections?

Hi,
Yes, I recommend using a 'Y' (I use a $4. one). It will provide more input so the amp will not be pushed as hard. I would also raise the volume for the subwoofer jack in the receiver to about three fourths of the way up. The SPL-800's are usually used in areas larger than recommended so these two items will help them to provide optimum performance.
Thanks,
Curt (928) 858-4430 or curt@velodyne.com

Hi,
Yes, I recommend using a 'Y' (I use a $4. one). It will provide more input so the amp will not be pushed as hard. I would also raise the volume for the subwoofer jack in the receiver to about three fourths of the way up. The SPL-800's are usually used in areas larger than recommended so these two items will help them to provide optimum performance.
Thanks,
Curt (928) 858-4430 or curt@velodyne.com

Thanks for the tip. It is apreciated.

Having no familiarity with your system, please accept the comments I offer in the spirit which I intend them. If I had to guess, I believe you have a gain/impedance match issue. I would try a loading resistor or an attenuator on the line between the SMS and your receiver. It also sounds to me like there is no capacitor between your SMS ground (the outside ring on the RCA plug) and chassis ground. A .01 MFD cap might do the trick. BE CAREFUL. Also, if you plug something else on the end of that line other than the SMS, does it cause the hum? Sorry I have nothing better but hums and ground loops are tough as you well know. I have replaced $500.00 switchers because of undiagnosable ground loops.

Arrggghhhhhhhhh.......HUM.......drives me crazy!!!

Have you tried the SMS-1 on another receiver in a different environment - this would be easy since it doesn't even have to be plugged in - just the RCA connection.... I presume it hums with no outputs connected - just the input from the receiver??

Seems like you've covered the ususal suspects - might be a defective SMS-1? Unless you've had it replaced with no change in symptom.

I believe that what you are saying is that you hear hum emanating from you system's spealers, LF and RF whenever the SMS-1 is connected to the receiver. The hum is present even when the SMS-1 is not connected to the AC wll socket. If what I said is true and you have not connected the SMS-1 to a bypass, external procesor or Tape loop connection inadvertently or such a loop is not accientally being activated, the only thing left is that the SMS-1 is acting as an ungrounded antenna. Try the capacitor between shield and ground as you said. Forget the resistor. If you stick a wire in the center connector of the receiver's SMS-1 connector, do you get the hum? If you do not, then something is happening that has nothing to do with the SMS-1.

patrick,

Out of curiosity, does your projector have a ground prong on the power plug?

Dang, because of shipping problems, I'm only getting my SMS-1 on Wednesday next week. :rolleyes:

I do have a question concerning the SMS-1 though. Can I calibrate all my speakers with this unit ? Set the subwoofer to 75 dB's in line with all the main speakers ?

Because I currently have the Radio Shack SPL meter and I believe the microphone included with the SMS-1 is far more accurate. Thoughts would be appreciated.

--Regards,

We have a Velodyne ULD Series Power Servo Controller with a 18 inch sub for a couple of years now. About 3 months ago the sub stopped working. I checked the wiring, made sure there was power, etc. but it still wouldn't work. Before the red light for the amp would turn on, but now that doesn't even come on, so I figure that the amp is the problem. Do you think my fuse burned out? Can I get a replacement fuse?

Please help and advise.

Also we have some Martin Logan speakers and the subwoofers sound bad when they hit. Do you think it would be a good idea to replace these subwoofers with my rockford fosgate subwoofers from my old car.

PI Linciln,

Forget the capacitor. This should be a lesson to everyone trying to diagnose a problem. When you make a statement about connections, be sure they are correct. The net effect of this is that the SMS was blamed incorrectly for causing hum. In the minds of many who passed through here and saw your comments, there will always be a nagging feeling about the SMS and whether it causes hum. IT DOES NOT CAUSE HUM. When diagnosing, be absolutely sure of your facts.

PI Linciln,

Forget the capacitor. This should be a lesson to everyone trying to diagnose a problem. When you make a statement about connections, be sure they are correct. The net effect of this is that the SMS was blamed incorrectly for causing hum. In the minds of many who passed through here and saw your comments, there will always be a nagging feeling about the SMS and whether it causes hum. IT DOES NOT CAUSE HUM. When diagnosing, be absolutely sure of your facts.

First, maybe you should relax just a little bit. I doubt very much that I just single handedly sank the SMS-1's reputation (other threads have been doing a much better job of this). BUT just so you sleep better at night I deleted my posts...

Second, I don't need a lecture from you about 'being sure of my facts'. While it's clear that I am not as perfect as you, I do the best I can. I'm pretty sure you're aware of the difficulty when trouble shooting ground loops. It's pretty easy to overlook a connection. I'm pretty surprised about the attitude that your throwing my way, from your first post I actually thought you were trying to help.

Finally, I did spend a couple more hours today chasing down the last of the hum and FWIW, I ended up placing a Ground Loop isolator (I picked one up at Ratshack until I can get something better) between the EQ and the AVR to eliminate the last of the hum...worked like a charm...all speakers are now silent.

I also went back and put the PJ back on the original circuit (since I didn't want to leave it running on an extension cord) and with the GLI in place there was no hum...zero..nil...nothing. So in the end, all I needed to do was isolate the EQ from the AVR. I also tried this same procedure with a DEQ2496 and the results were the same...It made my mains hum without isolation, but with the GLI it was fine. Notice I said EQ, because with just the sub amp attached there was no hum...The net effect of this is that the SMS did introduce a hum in my system, but so did the DEQ2496. You can spin that anyway you want. And for those that now "have a nagging feeling", they should be intelligent enough to realize that every system is different. No where was there mention that all SMS's would cause hum. But I am flattered that you've chosen my system as the measuring stick.

That's all I have to add to this thread. If you feel the need to lecture me some more, please do it via PM so this thread doesn't get hijacked.

No problem. I won't even confess to how many times I've overlooked something or just plain screwed up and I've been messing with this stuff almost forever.
Curt

We have a Velodyne ULD Series Power Servo Controller with a 18 inch sub for a couple of years now. About 3 months ago the sub stopped working. I checked the wiring, made sure there was power, etc. but it still wouldn't work. Before the red light for the amp would turn on, but now that doesn't even come on, so I figure that the amp is the problem. Do you think my fuse burned out? Can I get a replacement fuse?

Please help and advise.

Also we have some Martin Logan speakers and the subwoofers sound bad when they hit. Do you think it would be a good idea to replace these subwoofers with my rockford fosgate subwoofers from my old car.

Hi,
Based on the ULD's age I can almost guarantee you the amp will need repair, at the very least. We still do occasionally work on the amps but it may not be in your best interest. I would consult with our ULD expert, Dave Santos who is also the Velodyne service manager. Both Dave and I will be leaving Tuesday (Monday is a holiday for us) for the CEDIA trade show in Denver and back about Wednesday, Sept. 12th. So contact Dave when he returns about repair or other options.
His contact info is; (408) 465-2819 or dave.santos@velodyne.com. As to your M/L's, I would not recommend using other than the correct woofers.
Thanks,
Curt

PLincoln,

I am glad you were able to find the reason for yor hum and I apologize for coming on too strong. I have great admiration for folks who pursue ground loop issues and solve them without resorting to complete replacement. Good luck to you.

Sorry to intrude, I was hoping someone could answer my question concerning level calibration with the SMS-1.

Thanks.

Heinrich,

You're not intruding.

For level setting, you'd probably want to use a Radio Shack SPL meter as the SMS-1 only goes up to 200 hz. If your room has a dip below 200 hz, you would probably find yourself setting your mains too loud. You do bring up a good point, though. Probably the most correct way of doing this is to use a program like Room Equalizer Wizard and do a full range test and adjust levels based on those results. That way, you could allow for unusual dips and peaks.

Thanks !

For level setting, you'd probably want to use a Radio Shack SPL meter as the SMS-1 only goes up to 200 hz. If your room has a dip below 200 hz, you would probably find yourself setting your mains too loud.

Sorry I wasn't clear. I mean't subwoofer calibration. I would use the Radio Shack meter for calibrating each main speaker but for the warble tone it's inaccurate as far as I know. That's why I thought of using the SMS-1 to set the subwoofer levels even with the mains because the beringer microphone is far more accurate compared to the Radioshack,

Just as an FYI for other users that want to use the ratshack ground loop isolator to cure system hum...

I remeasured my system response this morning and it doesn't look good (this is with the DEQ2496).

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/5860/isolatorvssubswithoutisgx5.th.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=isolatorvssubswithoutisgx5.jpg)

For those with subs that are capable of low extension this would not be a permanent solution. I ordered a Jensen Isolator this morning and will post back the results after it arrives.

Sorry I wasn't clear. I mean't subwoofer calibration. I would use the Radio Shack meter for calibrating each main speaker but for the warble tone it's inaccurate as far as I know. That's why I thought of using the SMS-1 to set the subwoofer levels even with the mains because the beringer microphone is far more accurate compared to the Radioshack,


Hi,
Once you use the SMS, I think these questions will be answered. You will raise or lower the sub level to the same as the main speakers and then do your EQ. After completing the EQ, I recommend increasing the bass volume to sound correct (see manual). Flat bass sounds like weak to most people. It's best to have your receiver or pre/pro in a 'stereo' mode and do the EQ'ing with the two mains and sub only. It's important to follow the manual or use the one posted by a dealer I recommended the other day. http://pdf.outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/sms1guide.pdf
Curt

Hello,

i have posted this somewhere but i did not got the answer i wanted maybe you guys can help me.

My speakers:

Front : Kenwood LS-V710
3-way 4 Speaker System [Magnetically Shield]
Woofer 200mm cone Type x2
Midrange 100mm cone type
Tweeter Linaeum Type
8Ω
180w
35Hz-30000Hz (Freq Response)
600Hz, 3000Hz (Crossover Response)

Center : Kenwood CS – V610
3-way 3Speaker System [Magnetically Shield]
Woofer 100mm cone Type x2
Tweeter Linaeum Type
8Ω
150w
80Hz-30000Hz (Freq Response)
1000Hz, 3000Hz (Crossover Response)

Surround: Kenwood RS- 610
2-way 3Speaker System [Dipolar Radiation]
Woofer 100mm cone Type
Fullrange 80mm cone Type x 2
8Ω
100w
100Hz-20000Hz (Freq Response)
2000Hz (Crossover Response)


My scenario:

i set my speakers to "Small" so that i am able to set the crossover individually for all the speakers. My front able to produce powerfull kick ass bass.

Settings for 3808

Front - 80hz
Center - 80Hz
surround - 120 hz ?? (not sure) (please advise)

IF i use a velodyne CHT-10R, for the crossover knob should i set it to 80hz , 120hz (only if i set my surround to 120 hz or what) or direct .


must i set the subwoofer crossover as the same as the 3808 highest freq ( in my case 120 hz) ?? if is set the sub to 80hz (THX) does that means there is a gap of 40 hz??

i dont fully understand direct in the subwoofer.

someone please share your expertise and advise.

Thanks alot

Hi,
I agree with all your receiver crossover settings. You want to put the sub's crossover to 'direct'. Direct means you are bypassing the crossover in the subwoofer because the Denon is doing the crossover for all your speakers and you don't need double crossovers.
Thanks,
Curt

Hi,
I agree with all your receiver crossover settings. You want to put the sub's crossover to 'direct'. Direct means you are bypassing the crossover in the subwoofer because the Denon is doing the crossover for all your speakers and you don't need double crossovers.
Thanks,
Curt

so for my case direct mode would be the best option ??


Thanks alot

Yes, use 'direct'.
Curt

Yes, use 'direct'.
Curt

Thanks alot. might be getting the velodyne today.

Hi All,
I will be at the CEDIA trade show in Denver and return on September 12th. If you need service, repair or other 'official' Velodyne support in the meantime, please contact Pete Lewis at (408) 465-2800, ext. 3851 or service@velodyne.com.
Take Care,
Curt

Just got CHT-10R. Wow what a sub. powerfull bass. it blend in with my ht setup well.
the only problem i had is to get the ir signal inline with the sub. i had a hard time finding the ir point.

I use the direct mode like curt c told me. it work well. i was was able to get deep bass very well. i tested with the matrix dojo scene.

i have a question,

For my speaker setup ( i mention above) what high-pass cross over should i use (100hz or 80hz) for best output ??

What phase should i use ? What is phase? my sub is acutally behind my sofa and kinda isolated from rest of my speakers.

Last question, will the sub remember the last setting even i turn off ??

Thanks alot

Hello,

Anybody know if it's possible to bypass the crossover opn the Paradigm Servo 15 V2. What is the best way to use with my SMS-1. Put the crossover of the servo 15 at min or maximum??? I disable the crossover the SMS-1 because my H/K control de Xover setting.

i'm sorry if this has been covered already but I did a search and didn't find much

I am having a problem updating the software on my SMS-1, I am using serial port on my Pc(I always keep a serial port capable PC for this exact thing) anyway, I downloaded the software package 2.12 and when doing the procedure to update I cannot get it to work

I am powering the sms-1 off via the front button, holding the vol buttons, then repowering via the front switch, I get the front display screen with all blocks, I then start the software update and it connects up and runs fine, however the SMS-1 boots itself up the second it starts and goes into slave mode listed on the video output info screen, the software update completes and confirms etc. on the PC while the SMS-1 never does a thing, I have messed with this for hours and can't get it to work at all

any tips from anyone?

appreciate the help very much :)

-Gary

Gary,

If you haven't already done this, reset the SMS-1 and restore the factory defaults by entering code 890 on the remote?

Jim, will give it a try, thanks a bunch

-Gary

no dice, still enters slave mode the second I hit update in the program

serial cable and pc port is good, I use it to update DVDO scalers nearly once a week, and I am plugged into the RS232 IN on the SMS-1

thanks

-Gary

Just got CHT-10R. Wow what a sub. powerfull bass. it blend in with my ht setup well.
the only problem i had is to get the ir signal inline with the sub. i had a hard time finding the ir point.

I use the direct mode like curt c told me. it work well. i was was able to get deep bass very well. i tested with the matrix dojo scene.

i have a question,

For my speaker setup ( i mention above) what high-pass cross over should i use (100hz or 80hz) for best output ??

What phase should i use ? What is phase? my sub is acutally behind my sofa and kinda isolated from rest of my speakers.

Last question, will the sub remember the last setting even i turn off ??

Thanks alot


Any experts able to advise me.
Thanks alot

Gary,

I'm just fishing for a solution as it sounds like you're doing everything correctly.

I was reading the difference in the COM port settings. On the SMS-1 the RS-232 port settings are 9600 baud rate, 7 data bits, no parity and 1 stop bit where for the ISCAN HD+, is baud rate 57600, 8 bit and no parity 1 stop. Did you switch over the settings to the ones for the SMS-1??

Jim, thanks very much for the help

the DVDO program that they use to do the updates with has you select all that good stuff as you mentioned, the Velodyne update software has nothing of the sort, I am stuck for sure :(

thanks again

-Gary

I have a Velodyne DD-10 subwoofer.
Under “Installation – Quick Start” in the user manual there’s simple instructions on how to setup the DD-10 with a supplied microphone to calibrate according to the particular room it is in.
Step 3 is to “power up the unit and ensure that it is receiving signal from your receiver (i.e. playing bass).” Step 4 is to “Connect the microphone and place it in your favorite listening position. Then press 3-2-1 on the remote.”
My first question is, since I turn on the receiver according to step 3, should the sound from the receiver be on or muted? If sound should be on from the receiver; then at what volume?
My second question is, should the Velodyne volume be set at any particular level during the process?

Regards,
Gary

I just found this thread and I was wondering if I could get a response from Velodyne on my issue. I have an old HGS-10 that appears to have bitten the dust. I purchased it several years ago and loved the sound I got. A year and a half ago, I stopped using it and left it in the corner not plugged in. Over the weekend, I went to hook it up to my new system the sub immediately began making a loud noise that others have described as "droning." After doing some research it seems that this model of subwoofer seems to have alot of issues with the amp section going out and causing this noise. Also, I see that the same issue is responsible for "popping" noises. I too got these noises toward the end of when I used the sub daily. What are my options to getting this resolved? I see that people have claimed repair bills of up to $400!! Thats crazy. I could buy a new sub for just a little more than that. Am I stuck with a $1500 paperweight with no resale value?

tikicult,

I have a couple of HGS-15s, one of which I bought new several years back. I too had some initial problems with the amp and quite honestly don't remember how much it cost to have fixed. But I can say that the amp has been problem free since then. Although you can find cheap subs, I doubt that you'll find one that sounds as good as what you have for what it would cost to repair it.

Curt, the Velodyne rep who monitors this thread is at Cedia this week. He did leave instructions in post 3595 about who to contact for service in his absence.

Jim, I have emailed support

thanks for the help dude :)

-Gary

Hey i just picked the Velodyne Subwoofer (DSP-12B) and I was going through the manual and it said the best place to put the sub is on the same plane as your front speakers. it also said it is better to put the sub in the corner of the room rather than the centre. unfourtantly i can't put my sub at the same distance as my speakers but is it okay if i put my sub in the corner right up against the wall? and I have an LCD tv; does the sub have to be 2-3 ft away from the tv? thanks for the help

Well, as promised here is the comparison of my IB without any isolation, with the Jensen Audio Isolation Transformer, and with the inline Radioshack Ground Loop Isolator. The graph speaks for itself.

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/7409/radioshackisovsjensenvsca7.th.jpg (http://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?image=radioshackisovsjensenvsca7.jpg)

Note that all three measurements were taken at the same level. The Jensen exhibits a small level loss, but it's FR is outstanding down low...well worth the money IMHO.

still no word from Velodyne

Jim I found how to setup the serial port on my PC for the needed communication settings you listed for the SMS-1, did that and then attempted the software update, same thing, the SMS-1 instantly goes into standby mode when the update starts

I really thought that was it, thanks for alerting me to the needed settings for the SMS-1 RS232

-Gary

After changing the serial port settings, did you reboot the PC? In my limited experience with computers, I sometimes find a reboot helps. Kind of like a kick start not to mention that there may be some kind of detection of attached devices.

Just to establish that the PC is talking to the SMS-1, what happens if you leave the serial cable disconnected and do the restart sequence on the SMS-1. Do you still get slave mode? If so, then we know it has something to do with communications.

You might want to try a different serial port if you have another one available.

Hello,

I have a strange situation. When I use my SMS-1 with my Sub, I need to have my receiver volume verry high to have sound on my Sub. Same thing when I make sweep test...If I connect to sub directly in the receive I have sub tone at every volume level...I tried to made factory reset and no success.

I had it turned off for a while, I turned it on and a loud garbled sound came out, prior to this it worked perfectly. It cut off and now no sound at all, the led light comes on and stays on even if switched to auto on.

Just trying to figure this out..

matto:mad:

EDIT: I believe it's HGS-18 as shown here (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6_4/velodyne-hgs-18-subwoofer.html).

I have a Velodyne High-Gain Servo Subwoofer circa 1999-2000.
I don't know the model number but the description on the back is:
*Tandem 3" Push Pull Motors
*380 oz Motor Structure
*1250 Watts RMS/3000 Peak
*Patented High Gain Servo
*Ultra-Efficient Class D Amp
*Video Shielded

After working fine for years, the unit seems to power up but the blue led that is usually steady when working normally, begins to flash steadily after about 10 seconds. I tried switching the fuse but it didn't seem to change the behavior.
I submitted a ticket to Velodyne a few days ago but I haven't heard back yet.
I was hoping to get some additional suggestions here.

Thanks very much in advance,
Token

Hello fellow Velodyne fans,

I have recently run in to what appears to be an well known issue with the video output of my Velodyne DD15 with regards to receivers/processors that upconvert all video inputs to HDMI.

As has been discussed in the past, the output works fine if fed directly to the TV but if either the composite or sVideo is fed to the receiver (Denon AVR3808CI) I get no output from the HDMI output as the receiver is designed to.

I too have noticed that the output of the DD15 is not shown as 480i when fed directly to my Sony SXRD, but as simply NTSC.

Has there been any resolution to this aside from not passing the video output through the receiver?

Thanks in advance,

Halfrican

Hi All. I'm looking for some thoughts here on a buying decision. I have recently been playing with an HGS-12 in a 17x21' carpeted 4200cf room (vaulted ceilings, openings, standing waves, the whole deal).

I had two HGS-12's for a week, and they really worked extremely well in the room and if you've seen my prior posts, I was sold on the two sub solution until I tried single (HGS-12) and that bested my OLD pair of CSW P1000 subs by itself (with SPL measurements). So now I'm confused again and am sorely tempted by the dd-15.

I also had a chance to try a DD-15 and in the brief time I had it, I have to say it seemed to be better than the pair of HGS, but I'm really not sure.
So at the risk of opening up the 1 big vs. 2 small subs, I'm curious what people's thoughts are about this tradeoff?

Music is far more important to me than home theater, but we use it a lot for that as well. In movies, the sound is key (not booms/bangs, but just overall). I listen at fairly reasonable levels, so I do not need 110db+ to 10hz.:)

Don't know if this matters, but this may have to be a used purchase in either option.

Any insights (esp from the Velo people here) would be most welcome.

Thanks.

curt c of velodyne is not available at the moment ...

but in my opinion, the major advantage of the DD against other subwoofers (in this case dual HGS) is the EQ and a better servo control.

that being said, I think if you are looking for THE best music performance, the DD is IT. I've listened to other subwoofers for music, though they have more thump, it's not "accurate" as velodyne would say.

the song that convinced me that the DD is the best for music is the DTS DEMO of Eagles Hotel California. In the intro, my other two subwoofers would produce "buuuuum" sounds while the DD doesn't. I'd say the "buuuum" sound was distortion and not part of the original song. That's accurate.

the DD is no slouch in HT either, BUT, I personally prefer other "inaccurate subwoofers" for my HT.

I got a DD-15 today (my business bought it and did not use it and sold it to me). I had the remote working during an initial setup, but then it abruptly stopped working. I can see that the remote is sending codes because it activates my remote relay. I was able to train a MX-700 and it does not work either.
The sub works and the screen updates volume if I use the hard buttons on the back.
Any thoughts? I would hate to return the sub right now (I have the registration card). I can try to find out where it was originally purchased. The date of manufacture is Dec. 2006.

mamsterla,

Just to be sure that you're covering all bases, have you tried fresh batteries in the remote? Also, you mentioned remote relay. What if you remove the relay and aim the remote directly at the front of the DD-15? Will that work?

I found a Xantech IR receiver and plugged it in the back of the sub. Seems to work fine. I can live with that for the time being.

Yeah JimP - did the obvious stuff. Swapped remote batteries, removed the grill cloth and aimed right at the sensor from inches away, etc. I would now suspect a faulty IR receiver or a loose wire in the DD-15 itself since the IR receiver plugged into the IR 3.5mm jack in the back does work reliably.

mamsterla,

Since you have regained control of the sub with the rear input, you might want to try a system reset to see if that returns the front IR control to use.

Does the system reset lose all of the configuration? I just spent about 45 minutes today getting the response pretty darn flat. I don't think I have ever heard it this flat (good) in my room. I think all my humps are less than 3db at this point. Anyway - if the reset clears everything, I may wait a bit - need to record everything I did before I erase it.

-MA

Hello,

I have cht-10r. I would like to know will the sub remember my last setting when I switch off the main power?

Thanks

mamsterla,

Yes, a reset clears all your equalizer settings.

Hi

I just bought a DPS 12 to go with my HK AVR 247. I plugged this in my basement (home theater room, about 13x22), and I was surprised: the bass is very very strong, it actually makes my house shake! It's fun when I'm alone in the house, but wife and baby don't enjoy as much as me on the 2nd floor. It's a world of difference if I compare to what I had before (I bought a Bose AM10 setup, but didn't like the midrange output and how the music sounded on them, so decided to "upgrade" to something else, and this sub is part of the upgrade).

I don't remember the bass to be that strong where I listened to it in the store. The room was bigger, but I didn't think it would make such a difference. So a few questions:

1. How can I lower the volume on this? I tried night mode + minimum sound and it was still very strong. I even tried to lower the sub output to -10 on my amp and still was strong
2. Where should I place it? Right now, it's in the left corner of my room, beside one of my tower and my screen.
3. How should I plug this into my amp? It's plugged using a RCA cable in the Left input of the sub.
4. What would the optimal settings be on the sub for that kind of amp, and what settings should I play with on my amp to lower this even more (if anyone knows / has that kind of combination)
5. Does it make a difference if I didn't install the sub's little "feet"? Right now, it's directly on the floor, on the sub's protective tissue that came with it. I plan to install the feet only if I don't return the sub. The bass is very nice, but if I can't find a way to tune it down a bit when I listen to movies or music late in the night, my wife will divorce me for sure.

Any help is appreciated!

ebdury,

Do you know about the volume control? :)

Going into more detail, you need a SPL meter to set the levels of each of your 5 speakers and sub so that they're the same loudness relative to each other. Also, corner placement of a sub can cause it to overdo the lower frequencies which often are the ones that go through walls and can be heard rooms away.

So step one is to lower the volume of your sub so you won't be spending time in the doghouse. Then sneak off to Radio Shack and pick up a SPL meter to calibrate levels. Next, you want a calibration DVD that contains various frequencies so that you can see if your sub is being corner loaded. That'll help you determine if the sub needs to be moved.

Although this is somewhat an oversimplification, it'll get you on the right track.

still nothing from Velodyne, Jimp you seem to know everything ;) who should I contact at Velodyne regarding this issue with my SMS-1 not updating?

thanks for the help

-Gary

Gary,

I really don't know all that much... (mad scientist laugh)

I think Pete got left behind and everybody else went to Cedia.

Here's a cut and paste from Curts last post.

"Hi All,
I will be at the CEDIA trade show in Denver and return on September 12th. If you need service, repair or other 'official' Velodyne support in the meantime, please contact Pete Lewis at (408) 465-2800, ext. 3851 or service@velodyne.com.
Take Care,
Curt"

Or wait till Wednesday and ask for David Santos at the above phone number. They're all pretty kewl guys.

Freebird - I'm new to the forum. I'm not a Veoldyne expert by any means, but I have a strong background in music and sound engineering. So, I thought I'd see if I could shed some light on your question. Your question about high-pass filter - If you are referring to your mains (not the sub), the answer is based on the size of the speakers (basically). What it comes down to is which speaker, the mains or the subwoofer is better at handling the 80 / 100Hz frequency. If your mains are small, I'd put the HPF at 100 and let the subwoofer do the work below that frequency. The worst situation would be if you had small front mains AND an underpowered subwoofer. I'll hope that's not the case.

As for phase this has to do with the timing of the waveforms coming out of the speaker. A lot of people confuse this with polarity. The waves coming out of the subwoofer are very large and as they reflect off of surfaces and bounce back, they interact with the wave forms coming out of the subwoofer and can actually cancel each other out. Kind of like in math, which I hate, when they said, +1 + -1 = 0. It's basically 1-1 = they cancel each other out. Fortunately, the phase is easy to set if you have either a friend to help, or it can be controlled via remote control. Simply leave the phase at 0 (no change) and then have the remote or a friend change the setting to 180 while a strong bass piece is playing. Whichever setting is loudest is the one you want as the softer setting is the one that is having problems due to the wave cancelling themselves out.

Lastly - again, I'm no Velodyne expert, but I do know for a fact that these subs do get there data instantly written to flash ROM which requires no power. So if the sub is turned off or even unplugged, you will not loose your settings.

Let me know if this answers your questions in the way you want.

Gary,

I'm new here, but I thought I might be able to help with your situation, assuming it's a PC to sub communication problem.

The standard settings for the COM ports (many ways to get to but I use Start > Run > devmgmt.msc then enter) is 9600, 8 bit and no parity and 1 stop bit. Flow control - none.

These are the settings you would have any any PC if it were new out of the box. You shouldn't have to reboot, but considering the problems your having, it wouldn't hurt. Also, you may have a PC startup item that is affecting the transfer. One way that might help deal with this is to restart the PC in Safe Mode - right after the initia PC boot BIOS screen (might show all those technical numbers to do with IDE drives and RAM or might just say Dell or Toshiba or whatever) instantly press F5. Your PC will take longer to boot. This is normal. Try running the program while in safe mode - if it will let you.

Also, do you know anyone with a laptop. If you load the software on another PC (laptop or desktop) this will help determine if the problem is with the PC settings or elsewhere. Let me know if this helps.:cool:

Rob

Hey I am putting my dsp 12-b on hardwood floor; do i need to put the spikes on the bottom of the woofer? I don't want any scratches on the sub

thanks Rob, appreciate the help, will try this out and see what gives, I was changing the port settings under the device manager

Jim I will give them a call if I can't get this sorted out, thanks again

-Gary

Kojo39

I remember Curt mentioning this quite a while ago that the spikes were not necessary.

Just be sure you don't have air blowing out those holes when the sub is under heavy motion.

Major oops - I should've thought before posting - if this is a downward firing sub (or ported on the bottom?) - definitely let it breath.

A toast to Rob, it was one of my startup items ;)

Zone Alarm is one of the finest pieces of software man has ever known, however it can piss in your pool every now and then :( and in this case it was, I guess terma term used for my nearly biweekly DVDO scaler updates bypassed something in regards to it

thanks Rob, I owe you one, I am now rocking with a 5hz subsonic filter ;)

-Gary

Gary,

Great to hear. But 2 things - I'm curious if it was that or setting the port to 9600, 8 .... as opposed to seven and the different speed.

Also - were you kidding about the 5Hz? If not, I'd reconsider changing this as humans can not hear that low, so your subwoofer is working at producing frequencies (eating up amp power) for things no one will hear.

It's typically written that humans can hear 20 - 20 meaning 20Hz (times per second) to 20KHz. They write that as it's close, everyones different and it's easy to memorize. Realistically - most can't hear that high or low. Baby females have the best hearing typically. With a name like Gary, and the fact that you are using a PC to post here, I'll assume you are neither. : ) I'd suggest you set the subsonic to around 20, or maybe even 30. I believe most people only hear, at best down to 30Hz.

Anyone else have a comment on this - maybe I'm missing a point with regards to the subsonic (i.e. below sound) setting? My answer is strictly theoretical. Nothing like experience to kick a shallow theorie's butt!:D

Guys, congratulations are in order. Tomorrow is the birth of a brand new baby boy subwoofer. I think I'm going to call him SPL-1200R. And yes, I'm sure it's a boy. Have you ever heard a girl with a low voice like that? (Except for Aunt Sarah. I knew that chain-smoking would catch up with her.)
Unfortunately, I'm also morning the passing away of my '99 FSR-12. He was good little sub that I raised from just a little puff. (I still remember his first little boom boom.)

Anyway, I've got 4 questions for anyone up to it.
1) Is the SPL-1200R one of the subs that you should use a Y jack into to increase the signal to take some of the strain off of the Velodyne's amp?
2) My receiver is an Onkyo TX-DS989 v2 130/ch 8Ω. I previously had it's sub limited set to -45 and my FSR's amp at about 2 o'clock (i.e. a bit over half-way). I read Curt's posting saying, if I understand correctly, to keep the Velodyne's amps at only 30% - 40% if possible. The range on the Onkyo is -83 - +18. When I had any higher than about -45, my FSR-12 used to pop on loud parts like the amp was being pushed into distortion. Any suggestions, thoughts or explanations?
3) Curt had made a comment in a posting that on rare occassion he had seen where a sub plugged into a surge protector was a problem - I believe he was referring to depending on the model surge protector. I have my 50" plasma, Oppo DVD 981 and Onkyo receiver all plugged into my Monster brand HTS2500MKII v2. with the subwoofer as well. Is this too much for the HTS2500MKII v2? What would I look for to tell? Amps? Watts, Volts, those little dripping bits of plastic coming off of the unit? : )
4) Last question - For mains I use RBH MC-6CT speakers. Designed for 6Ω. They have 3 6½" drivers plus a tweeter. 2 of the 3 6½" woofers are woofers while the remaining 6½" is called a mid-woofer (via internal crossover). Despite me reading everywhere, magazines, Audioholics.com, this forum to set all mains as small, they did seem to sound better as large (Onkyo cutoff is at 80Hz) with my FSR-12 set to about 80-85Hz. I didn't do this mathematically. It is what seemed to sound best - as in pure, tight, no booominess with nice low-mid bass harmonics (think upright bass harmonics). Any suggestion on this with regards to my new SPL-1200R?

It's showing up tomorrow and I really want to treat him right.;)

I'm greatful for any and all posts from Bruce, Dave, Curt and all you great sub-lovin people out there in forum-land.

Here's to my baby's Papa born in 1812.;)

I need help with a customers SPL Series II (SPL-8) subwoofer. I am getting VERY low volume output on both the LFE input and the speaker level input. I have confirmed that my settings on my receiver are correct - all bass limitations are off and I have checked the settings on the sub. The volume is on maximum, crossover is set to 120Hz (highest) and it is set to use its own crossover. In addition, the actual model number I have (SPL-8BG2) is not on the Velodyne web site and was manufactured in January 2005. Any takers??:confused:

thanks Rob, no problem

the issue only went away after exiting Zone Alarm, I tried changing the bits to 7 and etc. and I got a error message from the software update

Rob, the subsonic filter has a rolloff slope effect, so its starting to go down at around 15(the lowest setting before the software update), I have dual SVS 16-46+ subs in a 12x12 room, I have had buttkickers and they don't do what the SVS subs do, I have them on Gramma platforms, the shear pressure is scary, I was wanting to update the SMS-1 to 2.12 because the standard software started to roll off a little around 20 to 21hz when set to the lowest setting of 15hz, these SVS subs are ruler flat down to 15hz in my room, any lower than that I don't care about

I really wish the SMS-1 would allow the subsonic setting with no slope, that way a person could dial in exactly where they wanted to stop and cut all info below that, for me that would be around 15 or 16hz, I can tune the SVS subs down to 12hz which gives about 10hz in my room, I would rather have them going down to 15hz or so in stock tuning with tons of headroom

thanks again Rob

-Gary

Apparently the latest firmware update (if it's out yet) will allow for the subsonic filter to be disengaged if you choose to do so.

Yep I remember you saying that Heinrich, I don't know if I will go that far or not :eek: I may try it out though ;)

-Gary

The firmware update that will allow the subsonic filter to be disengaged isn't out yet.

If you follow the SMS-1 plot in this post, third post from the bottom http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/seatonsound/vpost?id=1941089 you'll see the issue with the low frequency roll off. Its presumed that eliminating the subsonic filter will correct this. It seems a bit odd to me to attribute all of this rolloff to a 5hz subsonic filter. I guess it depends on how its designed.

Jim, are you insinuating that if the subsonic filter were to be disengaged that the roll off would still be there (or would it be attentuated ? ) ?

I just got my SMS-1 ! Finally. I'll post some graphs later. All I know is, if there is still a significant roll off below 20 hz (after the subsonic filter has been disabled) then I will be extremely disappointed.

Hopefully that won't be the case.

JimP or others - any insight as to whether the SMS uses the same roll-off curve as the DD series subs? Interesting to see that given the performance of the DD's. Makes me wonder if a BFD and non-DD solution might be somehow better in that department? tx

Freebird - I'm new to the forum. I'm not a Veoldyne expert by any means, but I have a strong background in music and sound engineering. So, I thought I'd see if I could shed some light on your question. Your question about high-pass filter - If you are referring to your mains (not the sub), the answer is based on the size of the speakers (basically). What it comes down to is which speaker, the mains or the subwoofer is better at handling the 80 / 100Hz frequency. If your mains are small, I'd put the HPF at 100 and let the subwoofer do the work below that frequency. The worst situation would be if you had small front mains AND an underpowered subwoofer. I'll hope that's not the case.

As for phase this has to do with the timing of the waveforms coming out of the speaker. A lot of people confuse this with polarity. The waves coming out of the subwoofer are very large and as they reflect off of surfaces and bounce back, they interact with the wave forms coming out of the subwoofer and can actually cancel each other out. Kind of like in math, which I hate, when they said, +1 + -1 = 0. It's basically 1-1 = they cancel each other out. Fortunately, the phase is easy to set if you have either a friend to help, or it can be controlled via remote control. Simply leave the phase at 0 (no change) and then have the remote or a friend change the setting to 180 while a strong bass piece is playing. Whichever setting is loudest is the one you want as the softer setting is the one that is having problems due to the wave cancelling themselves out.

Lastly - again, I'm no Velodyne expert, but I do know for a fact that these subs do get there data instantly written to flash ROM which requires no power. So if the sub is turned off or even unplugged, you will not loose your settings.

Let me know if this answers your questions in the way you want.

Thanks alot bro. i will try them out let you guys know how it went.

thanks again

Jim, are you insinuating that if the subsonic filter were to be disengaged that the roll off would still be there (or would it be attentuated ? ) ?


I think the slope will be improved some. Just don't know how much until we get it.

Taking another look at that chart between 5hz and 20 hz. With a 5hz subsonic filter, I would have expected the plot to be flatter between those two points and then a steeper rolloff below 5hz. Maybe that's the way it has to work.

Also, I'm not totally convinced the chart is all that accurate. It'd be easy enough to check.

I hope you're right.

JimP, thanks for the advice. At first I though I did that already, but I just read the manual again and it says the led flashes when the volume goes down, and I think I've mistaken that flash meaning to "you tuned it down as much as you could". I will try that again tonight and see if I can actually tune it down some more! Usability-wise, I've seen better, but it might just be me :)

New questions:
1. When I turn the lowpass crossover knob to the left, I hear a constant loud hiss sound. Turned fully to the right, it goes away completely. Since the sub is plugged in my sub output on my HK AVR247, I don't understand why low frequencies would go through. Worst, I hear the sound even when the amp is not turned on! Any reason why it would do that?
2. I thought I read somewhere that the sub would turned itself off when no signal goes to it for 15 minutes. Did I dream that? And if not, what does that mean? Because the lights stay on all the time, even after 15 minutes of having turned my amp off!

Sorry again for the newb questions. I thought I knew some stuff about HT setup, but now I realize I really don't know much :)

Etienne

Hi,
If you disconnect the input signal cable, is the noise still there? If so, it may be system related. When you put the sub's crossover in the 'direct' position, the sub will play the frequencies below what you set in the H/K's crossover. To put your DPS in auto on/off mode push down presets #1 and #4 at the same time for about a second.
Thanks,
Curt (928) 858-4430

I think the roll-off on the SMS-1 is 100% intended, some people are trying to say it's a design flaw or due to low quality goods etc. I just don't buy that ;)

with the current 5hz setting it seems to be down around -4db at 15hz and 1.5 at 20hz

I would love to see a much less agressive slope and a 100% complete cutoff selection :)

-Gary

Hi,
As posted before, we will offer a download update to remove all low frequency filtering in the SMS. Should be available by the end of September. It will not be included in production SMS's as filtering is a good and necessary thing for most users.
Thanks,
Curt (928) 858-4430

First, it's good to have you back Curt ! How was your trip ?

Second, and most importantly, if the subsonic filter is disabled then there should be zero roll off, right ? :) Just need reassurance. Thanks.

Hi,
No filtering equals zero roll-off. I can't however speak to the accuracy of the measuring devices out there.
Curt (928) 858-4430 or curt@velodyne.com

thanks Curt, appreciate the update from you ;)

-Gary

I have been looking at the subcontractor series line due to the fact that I can add a second sub if I feel is needed for a better value than buying a new sub with amp due to the fact that the amp can carry two seperate subs. I am looking into the 15 driver with the amp for now and will add another if I feel is needed. are there any installers or others out there using this line and what are your thoughts on it. I talked with velodyne for a while yeasterday and this was the direction they were stearing me indue to room size. i had asked about the spl series and he told me due to rom size I would be better off starting here with a 15 and then decided to add which he felt I was going to need to do. Iasked about the dd series and he still felt that this line was the best for me. Siad I would have to use the largest dd to do the job and that was out of reach for me. anyones ideas or opinions are greatly appreciated!

thkns

Curt, I tried what you suggested (unplugging the input cable). The noise is still there. I said a "hiss", but it's more like "winter wind" like sound. And, turns out the volume on the sub was very high (I purchased an open box from a dealer because it was the only one left, I presume the previous owner tested it very loud!). When it's high, the "wind" sound is somewhat loud. When the volume is low, the wind sound is barely (if at all) audible. As I said, it only does that when I turn the lowpass crossover knob over to the left. Is that normal?

Hi,
You need to do a reset by pressing presets left to right in the following order; 1-2-3-4-4-3-2-1. That will put everything back to factory settings. With the volume real high there will be some noise and it will increase as you allow higher (noise) frequencies by turning the crossover knob. By keeping the volume closer to factory setting, I think the DPS will perform correctly. I would increase the volume in the receiver for the subwoofer jack to well above half, somewhere around +6. If you need more help, call me or PM me a phone number and a 'good time to call' and I'll call you.
Thanks,
Curt (928) 858-4430

Alright. I unboxed this thing. :)

Just to make sure that I connected this thing up correctly, I'll explain how I did it. I connected the LFE output on the SMS to my subwoofer. From my av receiver, I connect the sub preout to the SMS LFE input.

I connected a normal RCA cable to the video connection. I'm getting a black and white picture. I don't know if that's normal or not or if I should just get an S-video cable.

I'm getting confused. Breathe. . .in and out. :) I have a subwoofer level built into my receiver and I have the sub gain level at the back of the subwoofer. I also have the sub level on the SMS-1. I'm not sure what to do with all these controls.

Prior to me using the SMS-1, I had the sub level on my AVR set to hit 73-74 dB's in relation to my main speakers. So I don't know how to balance this. Perhaps someone can explain that to me.

Another thing. When I use the 3-2-1 auto eq, the test tone plays through and I can't change the volume level. If I put receiver volume to 0, it still plays relatively loud.

Are my speakers supposed to be playing any sound when the tone is playing ? I am using an SVS PB10 ISD now and I understand that there is no low pass filter. So I put low pass filter on SVS to 199 hz. The slope for the subsonic filter I set to 6 dB's. I assume that the smaller the roll off, the more bass my sub will put out in the deep bass range.

I have so many more questions but that is about all for now. I haven't manually Eq'ed my system yet. All I did was change the various presets. If I want to do an auto EQ, I can hit 3-2-1, and then use the preset that's on the SMS-1 display and then just toggle between the auto eq result and no EQ (preset 6), correct ?

After that, if I want to calibrate my sub flat with my main speakers, do I touch the sub level on my AVR or do I increase the level with the SMS-1 ?

Sorry about all the questions. Thanks !

Oh, stupid question time. How on earth do I attach the microphone to the stand supplied ? :D

No, I'm serious.

Alright. I unboxed this thing. :)

Just to make sure that I connected this thing up correctly, I'll explain how I did it. I connected the LFE output on the SMS to my subwoofer. From my av receiver, I connect the sub preout to the SMS LFE input.

I connected a normal RCA cable to the video connection. I'm getting a black and white picture. I don't know if that's normal or not or if I should just get an S-video cable.

I'm getting confused. Breathe. . .in and out. :) I have a subwoofer level built into my receiver and I have the sub gain level at the back of the subwoofer. I also have the sub level on the SMS-1. I'm not sure what to do with all these controls.

Prior to me using the SMS-1, I had the sub level on my AVR set to hit 73-74 dB's in relation to my main speakers. So I don't know how to balance this. Perhaps someone can explain that to me.

Another thing. When I use the 3-2-1 auto eq, the test tone plays through and I can't change the volume level. If I put receiver volume to 0, it still plays relatively loud.

Are my speakers supposed to be playing any sound when the tone is playing ? I am using an SVS PB10 ISD now and I understand that there is no low pass filter. So I put low pass filter on SVS to 199 hz. The slope for the subsonic filter I set to 6 dB's. I assume that the smaller the roll off, the more bass my sub will put out in the deep bass range.

I have so many more questions but that is about all for now. I haven't manually Eq'ed my system yet. All I did was change the various presets. If I want to do an auto EQ, I can hit 3-2-1, and then use the preset that's on the SMS-1 display and then just toggle between the auto eq result and no EQ (preset 6), correct ?

After that, if I want to calibrate my sub flat with my main speakers, do I touch the sub level on my AVR or do I increase the level with the SMS-1 ?

Sorry about all the questions. Thanks !

deep breath!

Read this:
http://pdf.outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/sms1guide.pdf

it should answer alot of your questions.

I have 5 Velodyne DECO speakers available for anyone that wants them. No sub, sorry (I'm keeping the SVS sub). I loved these but I'm hoping another Velodyne owner would want them. I will also throw in a Harmon AVR45 receiver. Message me if you're interested.

Does it answer how to connect the mic stand to the microphone ? :)

BTW, I just realized that I haven't connected the EQ output's. Is this why my AV receiver volume has no effect when trying to lower the tone playing through the SMS-1 ?

I assume that I must go from the EQ out left and right to a suitable left and right in (aux or similar) ?

Hi,
I sent you a PM. I suggest you go to the outlaw manual if you don't understand the Velodyne manual. The SMS is a computer and there are many options and set-up possibilities. Yes you do need to run the eq-outputs into your system for either auto or manual eq. (3-2-1 is self-eq) You will have volume control over auto or manual eq.
Curt

Alright. I connected the left and right EQ output's to the left and right input on the AVR (VCR). It's also the same for video.

The problem is that in self EQ mode, I can't vary the loudness of the tones. If I set the master volume on my AVR to zero, it still plays quite loud. Why would it be doing this ?

If I press the "test" button, I get a message saying

"Boot" =fail
"Code"=fail
"sets"=pass

I'm not sure what that means. I am currently reading through the outlaw manual but I haven't covered that.

Hi,
You need to follow the manual. There is no system volume control for 'self-eq'. The volume for self-eq is preset. Auto-eq is different than self-eq. On auto-eq and manual-eq your system can control the volume. I suggest you do a reset to return things to factory default. Press remote buttons 8-9-0 to do a reset. Do not press other buttons until the manual says to.
Curt

I've got 4 questions regarding my SPL-1200R.
1) Is the SPL-1200R one of the subs that you should use a Y jack into to increase the signal to take some of the strain off of the Velodyne's amp?

2) My receiver is an Onkyo TX-DS989 v2 130/ch 8Ω. I read Curt's posting saying, if I understand correctly, to keep the Velodyne's amps at only 30% - 40% if possible. The range on the Onkyo for the sub limiter is -83 - +18. Where should I set the limiter and what is the highest volume that is safe to maintain on the Velodyne's volume? (Will I pre-maturely ruin the sub keeping it at mid-60s?)

3) Curt I believe had made a comment in a posting that on rare occassion he had seen where a sub plugged into a surge protector was a problem - I believe he was implying it depended on the model surge protector. I have my 50" plasma, Oppo DVD 981 and Onkyo receiver all plugged into my Monster brand HTS2500MKII v2. with the subwoofer as well. Is this too much for the HTS2500MKII v2? What would I look for to tell?

4) Last question - For mains I use RBH MC-6CT speakers. Designed for 6Ω. They have 3 6½" drivers plus a tweeter. 2 of the 3 6½" woofers are woofers while the remaining 6½" is called a mid-woofer (via internal crossover). Despite me reading everywhere, magazines, Audioholics.com, this forum, to set all mains as small, they did seem to sound better (less tinny) as large (Onkyo cutoff is at 80Hz) with my new SPL-1200R set to about 80-90Hz. Any suggestion on this?

I've got 4 questions regarding my SPL-1200R.
1) Is the SPL-1200R one of the subs that you should use a Y jack into to increase the signal to take some of the strain off of the Velodyne's amp?

'I WOULD USE A 'Y' INTO BOTH INPUTS.'

2) My receiver is an Onkyo TX-DS989 v2 130/ch 8Ω. I read Curt's posting saying, if I understand correctly, to keep the Velodyne's amps at only 30% - 40% if possible. The range on the Onkyo for the sub limiter is -83 - +18. Where should I set the limiter and what is the highest volume that is safe to maintain on the Velodyne's volume? (Will I pre-maturely ruin the sub keeping it at mid-60s?)

'I DON'T HAVE AN ANSWER ON THIS ONE. I'M TALKING ABOUT SIGNAL OUTPUT AT THE SUBWOOFER JACK AND ONKYO IS TALKING ABOUT A LIMITER. THEY ARE SOMEWHAT RELATED BUT NOT THE SAME. YOU MIGHT CHECK WITH ONKYO OR PERHAPS SOMEONE HAS AN ANSWER. I WOULD THINK MID 60'S WOULD BE FINE'.

3) Curt I believe had made a comment in a posting that on rare occassion he had seen where a sub plugged into a surge protector was a problem - I believe he was implying it depended on the model surge protector. I have my 50" plasma, Oppo DVD 981 and Onkyo receiver all plugged into my Monster brand HTS2500MKII v2. with the subwoofer as well. Is this too much for the HTS2500MKII v2? What would I look for to tell?

'YOU SHOULD ADD UP THE WATTAGE DRAW FOR ALL YOUR COMPONENTS AND SEE THE RATING FOR THE UNIT OR CHECK WITH MONSTER. FOR THE SPL USE 8AMPS OR 1000 WATTS AS THE MAXIMUM DRAW.'

4) Last question - For mains I use RBH MC-6CT speakers. Designed for 6Ω. They have 3 6½" drivers plus a tweeter. 2 of the 3 6½" woofers are woofers while the remaining 6½" is called a mid-woofer (via internal crossover). Despite me reading everywhere, magazines, Audioholics.com, this forum, to set all mains as small, they did seem to sound better (less tinny) as large (Onkyo cutoff is at 80Hz) with my new SPL-1200R set to about 80-90Hz. Any suggestion on this?

'THE GENERIC ANSWER IS CALL THEM SMALL, HOWEVER IF LARGE SOUNDS BETTER, GO FOR IT. IN YOUR SYSTEM, THE RBH WOOFERS ARE APPARENTLY INTEGRATING WELL WITH THE SPL. I ALWAYS GO WITH THE BEST SOUND.'

CURT (928)858-4430

I guess this would be a question for Curt,

I’m waiting on delivery on a new SPL 1500R (hopefully arriving tomorrow), which will replace my F1000.
I found that with the F1000 I had slightly better integration running my Dynaudio Contour 1.3MKII’s full range, I’ll try both with the SPL1500R.
Now the question being, when running the Auto EQ is it better to have the monitors crossed over with the internal crossover to get the best integration, I’m running strictly two channel off my Bryston BP25P. Does the auto EQ take care of the low pass crossover and does the volume of the 1500R have to be adjusted first before running the auto EQ or leave it at the default setting (30%).
I downloaded the manual to be prepared for setup but the info on the Auto EQ was fairly sparse.

Thanks

Robert

Hi,
Just 'EQ' the SPL-R with factory default settings. The 'EQ' will be based on the signal sweeps generated by the SPL-R. Your speakers will not be playing. I would usually recommend using the high-pass filter. Try both and go with the best sound and integration.
Curt (928) 858-4430

Thanks Curt

I'll report back once I've got things setup.

Robert

Curt, my SMS-1 only displays in black and white. I've tried both composite and S-video connections and still black and white. My Plasma is PAL.

Is my unit defective ? I know that it's not a huge problem but if my unit is supposed to give me a colour picture and it isn't then there is a problem. Please help me out.

Hi,
I checked with engineering and black and white is the norm for PAL.
Curt

Is there any way for me to get colour ? And why is it that black and white is the norm for PAL ?

Just asking.

Hi,
Unfortunately there is no way for you to have color. Black and white has always been the norm for PAL. (I had fogotten, it's the senior thing!) I don't have the technical reasons though I think it's related to the 50hz operation.
Curt (928) 858-4430

I have a Panasonic 42" PWD8. Perhaps there is an NTSC function ? I'll have to check for that. It's way cooler to have a blue background than a black one IMO.

I still haven't had time to tweak this thing but I do have some graphs. I now have an SVS PB10 ISD. It's about 2.7 meters away from me. Crossover on AVR set to 80 hz. I have Jamo Concert 803 bookshelves (7" driver, largish bookshelf).

Crossover in SMS-1 disabled. Crossover in subwoofer, nonexistant. :) I put the subwoofer in the corner and the bass I've found to be boomy. Prior to me getting the SMS-1, I changed the orientation of the sub to face sideways about 2 m away from the wall.

Funnily enough, I noticed that when checking the FR graph, it was actually getting flatter as I moved the sub in the corner. I switched phase from 0 (which was current) to 180 deg. Night and day difference on the graph. Seems that I gained about 7-10 dB's between 50-60 hz.

Subwoofer distance I don't know how to set or whether or not it's the correct distance. If I increase the distance level, I find that my graph level starts to increase inbetween the crossover area (up to a point). If I set the distance as it actually is, the bass goes way down.

I increased the sub distance from 2.7 to 5.5 and there was quite an increase in bass in the crossover region. Not anywhere flat but flatter. But then if I increase the distance further than that, the bass actually starts to drop off more and more.

So any advice on setting the distance levels and what I should look out for for the correct setting would be appreciated.

As far as Eq'ing, well, let's just say that I haven't had enough time to study the various Q's and bandwidth's but I will get there. I'll show you guys three graphs.

1. First graph is unequalized :

http://uploadimages.com/view.php?type=thumb3&p=2007/0227/11897175886054.jpg

2. Second graph I took a stab at the EQ (manual).

Keep in mind that I probably haven't used the right levels to actually EQ but I was in a rush so I had to be brief.

http://uploadimages.com/view.php?type=thumb3&p=2007/0227/11897175891142.jpg

3. This third graph I found interesting. As soon as I closed the door behind me (which leads to another small room, this is what I got. The same settings as in graph 2 but with my door closed resulted in :

http://uploadimages.com/view.php?type=thumb3&p=2007/0227/11897175909005.jpg

Please keep in mind again, that I don't yet understand how to use the controls like Q and bandwidth. I just moved the sliders but I still can't affect the frequencies that I wanted to. I need to read up more on this.

So there you go. Please discuss what you think. Using the EQ result, the bass was still pretty boomy. Any suggestions would be most welcome. Thanks !

Oh, I got the colour screen to work. Just changed from PAL to NTSC on my Plasma. :)

After I Eq'ed the system in graph 3, the needle on my Radio Shack meter is still going back and forth quite a bit and isn't stable.

I've heard of reports from many people in this thread where, once the response was Eq'ed, the needle hardly moved at all. That's where I want to be ! :D

Help me get there. Thanks !

For those more experienced, please tell me where in the graph I'm supposed to shoot for ? I'm not sure what is flat on the graph. Thanks.

If I understand your question, there is no flat place on the graph. You're centered around '76' which is fine. Your curves, especially 2 and 3 are very good in the bass management section. Any additional improvement would be to work on the minor variations to make the line flatter if possible. Once you're this good it may require much additional time for any improvement. I know some of the 'flatliners' experiment with different phase settings on the 'set-up' page to achieve the flattest possible line. While I'm perfectly satisfied with the curves which appear to be +/-2db, I certainly invite other comments or suggestions.
Thanks,
Curt (928) 858-4430

Guys, any comments on the graphs ? I find it strange that I have no serious peaks or at least I can't see any serious peaks in the entire musical range.

But I can't seem to increase the dip at 50-60 hz. I can increase slightly but I can't nail it. Any advice on flattening out a very small area, let's say, from 50-60 hz ?

Also, if my response graph was flat, then surely my SPL meter wouldn't be jumping over the place ? One thing I have noticed is that now I have more bass than before. In fact, the actual pink noise tone is full bodied where before it sounded a bit lean.

I guess that's good news. Suggestions, comments would be most appreciated.

In equalizing, the main thing to do is remove peaks. Dips are difficult and you use up power rapidly. You double power requirements for every 3db of boost at the elevated frequencies. Your dip is very minor. Since you are not using several EQ bars at all, (those that are neither boost or cut), you could in the parametric mode, move them to the area you're concerned about. You can even stack them on top of each other. Just be aware every boost you make is using up valuable amplifier power. You might also try moving the left four EQ bars down (cut) a bit to meet your small dip. When you want the boost to be narrow, move the 'Q' number (parametric mode) to a higher number. The set 'Q' of 4.3 effects a third of an octave. An octave is a doubling of frequencies, so 40hz to 80hz is an octave. There are no magic bullets, just patience. Frankly I wouldn't be concerned about what the R/S meter is doing. I have two here and they are not that close to each other. The SMS curve is showing you what the mic is receiving.
Curt (928) 858-4430

On the SPL-R series, specifically, the SPL-800R, does anyone know if the 6-band EQ overides the 4 presets (movies, r&b/rock, jazz, games) or for that matter do the 4 presets overide the 6-band EQ? I trying to figure out if they work in conjunction with one another or does only one of the two work at any one time.

Thank you in adavance.

Hi,
The SPL EQ is global across all the presets. So the presets are in addition to the EQ. It's both. You can do a reset (on remote push presets in this order; 1-2-3-4-4-3-2-1) to undo the EQ if ever needed.
Curt (928) 858-4430 or curt@velodyne.com

Great...

Thank you for your timely advice.

The levels I used for the tones were about 73 dB's or so. Should I perhaps increase the levels because maybe it will show a greater discrepency between the peaks and the dips ?

Also, on the right side of the scale, if it reads on average, 80 dB's, then I would want to get the sub also at 80 dB's, correct ?

I read through the Outlaw manual and it is informative. But there are a few things which I'm not sure of.

Listening to music and switching back and forth from the unEQ'ed response to the EQ'ed, the bass definitely seems much fuller. Bass notes have more power. But the deep bass response is not as good as it was before. Perhaps the low end is actually lower than it should be to be accurate.

I would EQ around '76' or so. Bring your speakers down to that level by using the receiver's volume control. Just get everything more or less the same. You won't have EQ capability above the receiver's crossover point. If your receiver's crossover for the sub is 80hz, then 80hz and below is what you can EQ. You can raise or lower the bass volume by the SMS or sub or receiver's volume for the sub jack. You don't hear much of anything below 30hz and your response is good to 25hz. You may have a better balance now.
Curt

Hi All,
I will be on vacation for the next 9 days. If you need a Velodyne expert during that time please contact Velodyne service manager Dave Santos at; (408) 465-2819 or dave.santos@velodyne.com. I will hopefully have computer access at times and try to answer questions as promply as possible.
Take Care,
Curt

Curt, I tried something. I increased my levels to 80 dB's because I don't think you were seeing everything (or at least I'm seeing more of my response and a greater variation. I can now adjust more.

I understand why my deep bass was far less than before because I decreased the levels quite a bit to keep everything else flat. But I decreased the levels so far below the set level so it was actually lower than normal (in order to be kept flat with the speakers).

I must have skipped the part when the manual suggested using 80 dB's as a level recommendation. :D

Anyways, my deep bass was off. I even heard with the pink noise in my receiver. I could hear more bass but that deep rumble was subdued. With my unEq'ed response, you just sort of hear the deep rumble but the frequencies from 50 to 80 were really underwelming.

I'm going to post back in a while and report my findings. I'll post a bunch of graphs as well to confirm.

Curt, just a few questions. If I want to calibrate my subwoofer to 73-74 dB's with an uneq'ed response (preset 6) and I also want to calibrate my EQ'ed response to 73-74 dB's, how would I go about doing that ?

Because when I finally finish with my Eq'eing for the day, I need to recalibrate. But then I find that my preset 6 resultsI noticed that before, music sounded thin and with movies, the bass was deep at times. I would like to compare both results on a more apples to apples level.

Thanks !

PS I'm starting to really enjoy using this device !

I think I might be doing something wrong. As soon as I calibrate flat after Eq'eing, I find that for preset 6, unequalised, I have to raise the levels by 5-6 dB's to get the same reading.

How do I program the preset 6 to get my levels to 73-74 dB's seperate from my EQ'ed preset 5 ?

Another quick test. I notice that my much flatter graph has increased output from 30 hz right up to 80 hz. Much higher output in the 50 to 80 hz region because of either a massive null or a rather big dip. But I find that my deep bass is severely lacking compared to what it was.

I increased the levels to get a flat level so the deep bass should actually be higher. I've set the subsonic filter to 15 hz , 6 dB octave. Do you guys think that the subsonic filter is rolling off the deep bass ?

I tried the Matrix, chapter 13, I think where Neo is in the crop fields. There is a tentacle that moves past the screen which almost pressurized the room. Now, nothing. You can hear bass but there is no pressure feel.

My question then becomes, why does it show on the graph a greater increase in output also in the deep bass range but there is significant roll off ? Why would it show something that a person wouldn't perceive ?

Thanks.

There are more alarming test results for the SMS-1, these being for distortion levels. Apparently, the unit is very easily overloaded on the input side. Distortion rises drastically even at a modest input level of 0.8 V RMS. See results at Home Theater Shack on the BFD forum.

I'm not posting the link because I know AVS sometimes frowns upon that.

Mojomike, please don't go anywhere. I need you here because you might solve my issues. :D

Currently, my levels I'm using on the SMS-1 is 15. Must I change that ? If so, what would be a good number ? BTW, do you also have an SMS-1 ?

Thanks.

Also, if I want to compare results from one preset to another but calibrating both presets to the same level, how would I go about that ?

If I use EQ preset 5 (which is my current EQ) I have to drop a couple dB's in order to calibrate to flat to 73-74 dB's, but if I'm preset 6 (uneq'ed) then I would have to raise the levels by a couple dB's in order for me to reach the 73-74 dB range.

I would like to have both presets calibrated otherwise the levels are going to be off and comparisons are going to be inaccurate.

I don't have an SMS myself, but I always seem to find myself on the verge of buying one. I can't specifically answer your question because of lack of any hands-on experience, but generally, the problem seems to be that the input stage of the SMS is prone to overloading and then results in distortion. To avoid this problem, keep the output from your receiver or pre-amp fairly low and then either boost it with the SMS volume or with the gain knob on the sub itself.

I hope Curt or someone from Velodyne is reading this read and goes to that forum because I feel that it is unacceptable that they can release something with distortion levels so high !

Sorry but I am a little peeved. I don't want these distortion levels to be messing around with my system and I paid good money for this. I already had my subwoofer level at about -7 but I guess to be on the safe side I'll decrease the levels to it's lowest setting -10.

I'm just a little shocked at those figures. I mean the people on that board have a point about the distortion figures and the steep roll off. Before it wasn't such an issue, just a bit of roll off at 20 hz (it was said) but according to that graph response drops even above 20 hz and that is with a 5 hz subsonic filter.

That might be the root cause of my deep bass going missing. If the newest firmware update does not cure the deep bass roll off then I'm going to be very, very disappointed.

Alright, I may have jumped the gun unnecessarily. It is not a fact that all Velodyne units have these distortion figures. Testing will be done to confirm.

Okay, so I have some more graphs ! :) I had to position my subwoofer about half a meter out fromt eh corner. Unfortunately I don't have the luxury to place it where I would like.

This is my unequalized graph (I have maintained the same settings as before in the menu :

http://uploadimages.com/view.php?type=thumb3&p=2007/0231/11899472073495.jpg

This is my equalized graph :

http://uploadimages.com/view.php?type=thumb3&p=2007/0231/11899472089487.jpg

This graph is equalized except I closed the door directly behind me :

http://uploadimages.com/view.php?type=thumb3&p=2007/0231/11899472099585.jpg

Then, what I did was I took my unequalized graph and calibrated so that my subwoofer was producing 73 to 74 dB's using pink noise on AVR. This gave me a level setting on the Velodyne as 37.

Due to input distortion that might be a problem with the SMS-1 (according to Home Theater Shack) I took my sub level and increased it to -10 (it's lowest setting).

This is the uneq'ed graph but calibrated flat in term of level :

http://uploadimages.com/view.php?type=thumb3&p=2007/0231/11899472102659.jpg

I think I may have increased the graph levels slightly (about 81-82 dB's more or less)

And finally, my eq'ed graph (preset 5) calibrated using pink noise on AVR. In order for me to reach 73-74 dB's, the SMS-1 volume level of 15 was perfect.

http://uploadimages.com/view.php?type=thumb3&p=2007/0231/11899472112134.jpg

Listening to music, I find that bass sounds a fuller than before and sounds great on some music but boomy on others (more so than it was before). It sounds full but then on some music it almost sounds overly boomy.

Movies suffer from the same problem as before. In the dojo sequence in the Matrix, Neo falls down hard on the mat. This has 20 hz material in it.

Unequalized, I can clearly perceive a greater depth to the low frequencies. Neo falls down hard several times within the sequence and there is deep bass there. In this mode, the hits had power and depth.

The equalized results were again, really disappointing. It's almost as if the results from the graphs do not reflect what I'm hearing/feeling. I increased bass across the range of frequencies. I should be getting increased perceived level of bass but it's the complete opposite. I get audibly less impact, or extension on the same scenes.

I tried Revenge of the Sith and the opening star destroyer flyby has less deep bass than the uneq'ed response. Very, very strange.

Why on earth would this be ?

I'm really not sure why this is but I might not be doing something right (which is definitely a possibility). I suspect that the subsonic limiter is kicking in more than it should on the SMS-1.

Thoughts, suggestions would be most welcome. Thanks !

I have a Velodyne DPS-12. The volume has become inaudible at normal levels. I have to turn up the volume very high just to hear anything. I have checked the cable and the set-up in the receiver and on the subwoofer itself. They are normal and as they should be.

Anyone have any ideas about why I have no/low volume from my subwoofer?

Someone please help.

If you are using a decent pair of speakers elsewhere, you should feel, not hear the LFE channel. I use my F1800R set at 40Hz. That avoids the boominess and provides the deep low end normally used in the LFE channel. Oh I know there iss supposed to be frequencies up to 120Hz in the LFE channel, but frankly, those over 40 HZ only create distortion in my system.

Does anyone have any idea as to why I'm experiencing a lack of deep bass power compared to my uneq'ed response ?

I sent you a PM.
Curt

How can you not buy a Velodyne product when you can customer support on a Sunday from both Curt (on vacation) and from the customer service manager of the company?

You guys live my life, which is bad for you but good for your customers! Thanks.

Anyway, Curt, I hooked up a VCR audio input and I am getting lots of sound, so I suspect it is my receiver now.

I had not changed any settings, so I think the preamp may be gone.

Time for a new receiver, I guess.

Heinrich:

Looking at your boost settings for the equalizer, I notice that most of them are above the 0 db mark. This will put a fair amount of strain on the amplifier. You should probably pick a slightly higher start volume. It is much easier to cut than boost.

So take your worst dip and set that at the 76db level. Then start lowering the levels to match where your peaks are worst. This approach may help your low end response too. What are you choosing for your slope on the low end?

Lastly I would play a little with phase to mate up to your speakers at the 100Hz point. I think this is very important if you want a smooth handoff. In fact I think this would be more important than your low bass response for overall quality of sound.

Let us know what you see.

I was advised to mess around with the phase controls on the SMS-1 and that is something that I will do tommorrow. I'm off then. Hehe.

I think I will just start from scratch again. I will use a baseline volume for the graph so that it hits about 85 dB's. Mess around with polarity and phase and then EQ to flatten things out.

You should probably pick a slightly higher start volume. It is much easier to cut than boost.

Do you mean that the graph starts at a higher level ? Alright. So then I will increase that to 85 dB on the scale.

Just a few things that you need to know. I am currently using sub level in my AVR as -10 (the lowest setting). This setting was used because of the aforementioned "potential" distortion problem with the SMS-1 input stage. This is not conclusive.

This is what I've done. In order for me to compare unequalized results to eq'ed results in terms of calibration level. I've used a baseline volume on my SMS-1 at 15 for both EQ'ed and non-Eq'ed results.

Once I got my results that you see in the graphs, flattened, I then immediately went in my AVR settings to the pink noise. There, I had to increase the level to -19 (from -15).

However, to compare non-eq'ed results (preset 6), I had to raise the SMS-1 volume to -37 !) This is to achieve a 73-74 dB level for the subwoofer. So I saved these settings in my menu.

EQ'ed (preset 5) is volume -19 on SMS-1
Non-eq'ed (preset 6) is volume -37

This is the only way that I know of that gives me a comparison between both presets in terms of calibration level. I've been told that the subsonic limiter is not going to affect performance at all with my subwoofer.

So I'll start from scratch and mess around with the controls. But I would like it if someone could just confirm that I'm using the correct approach in terms of setting levels (I may be doing something completely wrong for all I know).

PS Curt, I appreciate your advice tremendously. I'm not ready to throw in the towel and take things further. I want to take full advantage of this unit and utilize it properly. In fact, I spoke to the dealer today and told him that it's a great tool for diagnosing problems and that for music I have heard a difference.

I also told him that I still have a lot to learn from this device. So I really don't want to just give up and get a refund. I don't even think I'll be able to now anyway but that is besides the point. I'd rather try my best to get this working to it's full potential than to use it half-heartedly and get poor results.

Thanks !

mamsterla,

So take your worst dip and set that at the 76db level. Then start lowering the levels to match where your peaks are worst. This approach may help your low end response too. What are you choosing for your slope on the low end?

I'm currently using the 15 hz subsonic filter with a 6 dB slope. Also, could you please explain again what you mean when you say that I need to set my lowest dip to 76 dB and then match where the peaks are worst.

I'm not entirely sure I understand what you saying.

Thanks !

Heinrich:

The goal of the exercise is to get flat response (or tailored response since flat may not be to your tastes) all the way from ~20Hz to the handoff to your main speakers. This may not be possible given your room, your speaker(s) and your amp, so given this, do the best you can.

What I mean is that you are looking at the issue a little wrong. You want your average to end up at about 76db. In order to get the average you need to look at your raw response and see how to get to that average.

Looking at your first unequalized graph with the volume set to 15, you can see that your dips are at 50Hz and 100Hz (probably a node in your room). If you set your volume up to about 17 or so (play with it) you should have these dips at 76db rather than 73db. Once your dips are at the level, attenuate your peaks - like the one at 70Hz and the big one at 125Hz.

Since your crossover is probably near that 100Hz area, you may want to work on the slope, phase and crossover db. If you follow the manual, it suggests that you start by putting your sub on mute and getting your main level speakers to the 76db average. Take a look at that graph (maybe post it). From that graph you should be able to pick a reasonable crossover point. Pick a point where your mains start to drop off. You do not want your sub to add to the mains or you cannot by definition get flat response. You really want a handoff from mains to sub such that the sub takes over where the mains are no longer efficient.

Tailor the mating of the two speakers first. Then once the level at the crossover point is 76db and does not have any gross bumps or dips, it is time to play with the response of the sub itself.

Does that make sense? Honestly your other graph is commendably flat for the sub portion - your low end power issues may be due to your boost across the board. Lastly, be realistic with what you can get from your room. It may not get you the right reinforcement if the size does not complement those frequencies. Honestly, looking at your equalized graph, I would work more on that 125Hz peak and that 100Hz dip than anything else. Your ear is much more sensitive at those frequencies than at 20Hz.

-MA

Honestly, looking at your equalized graph, I would work more on that 125Hz peak and that 100Hz dip than anything else. Your ear is much more sensitive at those frequencies than at 20Hz.

The SMS-1 won't be able to equalize the 125 hz peak as far as I know.

Oh well, another member over at AVtalk has confirmed that the distortion levels are very high on the input stage of the SMS-1. Not sure I'm going to keep this afterall. :(

Try playing with the placement of the main speakers while monitoring with the subwoofer on mute and the SMS playing test tones. You may be able to negate some of the 125Hz peak with better placement.

As for the input distortion issue - I think you should trust your ears more than pure measurements. An equalized sub that is well mated to your mains will sound far better than an unequalized room.

If you want to look into other solutions consider Tact or Lyngdorf - the DD-15 I have has made a positive impact on my system. I don't think I could distinguish much distortion at 40Hz where it does most of its work. I can tell how bad my room is for music though.

Ok finally got my SPL 1500R.

I’m just trying to grasp the digital increments when adjusting the volume; obviously I would like to match the output of my Contour’s for a seamless transition.
When using the F1000 or HGS 18 I found that the pot for the volume would usually be between 8 and 9 o’clock when using speakers of low sensitivity like my Dynaudio Contours or Celestions SL6S’s which are both about 86dB.
Where does the default volume setting of 30 on the SPL 1500R fall in relation to the analogue dial, sorry I’m old school?

Reason I’m asking is that with the ease of set-up that the auto EQ offers it’s difficult to hear if in fact the SPL 1500R is loud enough. Having owned a few Velodynes I always found between 8-9 o’clock worked well in my set-up regardless of which model, so I was hoping to just set the SPL 1500R at about the same so as not to fuss around too much.

Oh well, another member over at AVtalk has confirmed that the distortion levels are very high on the input stage of the SMS-1. Not sure I'm going to keep this afterall. :(

That is a real bummer for a lot of us.:(

At this point I am just curious as to what Velodyne has to say concerning this issue and what they plan to do about it.

Those levels of distortion combined with the level of rolloff starting above 20Hz is unacceptable for something with the Velodyne name on it. :o

At least that is my opinion. Maybe someone will recommend a mod to fix one or the other issues or both.

Apparently, according to Ikka, he tells me that as long as I keep my subwoofer levels in my AVR to around -6, that the distortion will be nonexistant.

I played around this morning. Only spent an hour. But what an hour that was ! I tried something that many of you suggested. I messed around with phase on the SMS-1.

Guess what ? Any increase in phase (it was at the 0 mark before) caused huge drop off's on my graph. As I increased phase, so the graph descended. So I left it at 0.

But.

But then I tried switching polarity from positive to negative. Oh my word, that made a heck of a difference ! The output has increased above the crossover region where there was a huge hit at 100 hz.

I tweaked my 30 hz to 50 hz output and I think there is even less of a dip inbetween 50-65 hz. Output at 20 hz I now understand was giving me more deep perceived bass (it was around 3 dB's greater than my eq'ed graph).

Listening to music, there is a huge difference now. I thought that the bass was somewhat muddy and boomy on both eq and non eq settings but now things are different.

The funny thing is that my EQ'ed graph is not a heck of a lot different to my non Eq'ed graph although there still a noticeable difference in what you see (as I will show soon). It was the polarity switch that made all the difference in the SMS-1 !

The polarity was the same before on both EQ and non EQ settings. So whatever hesitations I might have had have somewhat cleared. Watching movies, I get the sense that the bass is just far more realistic. Bass I probably would never have heard I am hearing better than before. And it's not the deep bass, because I am not experiencing the deep bass quite as much as before (+ - 3-4 dB's) but my listening has proved positive.

I think I'm going to keep this unit. Although the distortion figures are terrible, if you keep your sub level in the negative range, it will be more than fine according to Ilkka. What I am going to do is to get that subsonic filter, and then increase bass at 15 hz to truly make it flat.

Oh, yeah, increasing bass at 15 hz on a PB10 ISD is probably not recommended but the way I see it, the tuning is around 17.5 hz and if, if I am experiencing a steep drop off in my room, I can increase those levels (at the expense of head room, yes, I know :))

I'll probably get another PB10 ISD. :D

I will post graphs soon.

Sorry, I didn't mean to "get a subsonic filter" but rather to disengage it and then boost output from 15 hz and up. I know that that will enhance my movie experience. Keep in mind that I'm not watching films at reference at all. Listening is usually done at -8 at most.

So an increase from let's say, 14 hz to 19 hz to create a flatter overall experience is not going to blow the sub apart. I don't think. :)

heinrich s, i'm claiming the suggestion to change polarity and phase before EQ'ing. :)
I'm mike c btw.

all the other suggestions that didn't work didn't come from me :) (just kidding)

as to the distortion you are talking about, do you hear this distortion?

I have my subwoofer level at 0db, and I increase or decrease volume using both the sms-1 and subwoofer. never heard this distortion ... i think you are saying people measured this distortion ... but IS IT AUDIBLE?

I would really really really discourage boosting the 15hz frequency on your PB10. you're not JUST gonna lose headroom, you might lose your driver if you don't know what you are doing ... I guess that's what the velodyne waiver is for.

why don't you email SVS and ask them if boosting below tuning is ok.

Mike, your suggestions were most helpful ! I can't believe that changing polarity on the SMS-1 made so much difference.

But the phase on the SMS-1 seems to mess everything up for the worse. The distortion levels that have been measured I haven't detected or at least I don't think I have. However, Ilkka tells me that it will be noticed at high levels THD levels will skyrocket (and that's not even at the low, low frequencies).

I trust what Ilkka says. Mike have you gone to see the thread at Home Theater Shack (in the BFD forum) ? It is a concern IMO but again, you can negate any distortion by limiting the sub level in the AVR to the negative range.

I posted in the SVS support thread. Hopefully I'll get a response nice and quick over there. :)

Mike, I used the SMS-1 volume of 19 to set graphs to 80 dB's. So 19 for both preset 5 and unequalized).

Then after I eq'ed, I went and set my SMS-1 volume to 21 for both to get a flat reading with my SPL meter. This is for both presets so that I can toggle between the two and have equal level readings.

If I want to shoot for an accurate level calibration of the subwoofer, what must the needle be hitting on average ? Because with SMS-1 at 21, the lowest that the needle hits is around 72-73 dB's and maximum is 76 dB's.

How do I know what is the average reading ? What do you have your subwoofer calibrated to ?

Sorry for all the questions. Thanks !

Only thing I'm concerned about is that if I calibrate to flat and I use volume on SMS-1 at 21 (compared to 19 to get a flat graph) and my AVR master volume is -8 , then if I check my graph again at the newly calibrated level with SMS-1 set to 21, wouldn't the bass then be out of whack ?

Would there not be too much bass for music ? Am I on the right track ?

I trust what Ilkka says. Mike have you gone to see the thread at Home Theater Shack (in the BFD forum) ? It is a concern IMO but again, you can negate any distortion by limiting the sub level in the AVR to the negative range.

This is true, but you/we shouldn't have to worry about it! This is a product produced by one the world's leading subwoofer/audio companies. Why should we have to make those sort of adjustements to avoid crazy distortion levels?:(

And, why does it roll off so steeply above 50 Hz and below 30 Hz when some Velodyne models, ala DD-18 are spec'ed to 15-100Hz? Realisticly, this thing is barely flat from 30-50Hz!

The SMS should have a flat response from at least 100 Hz on down to where the subsonic filter has been set AND not before.:mad:

I like my SMS and have enjoyed all of Velodyne's products, but someone sure wasn't thinking some things through on this one. :o It makes me wonder how accurate the onscreen graphs really are?!?


http://www.whsd.org/users/jpm/images/sms.png

According to Ilkka again, the graphs are accurate. In fact the SMS-1 is about as accurate as the BFD is. Even a test shootout on AVtalk confirmed the results. So accuracy in term of graph reading or measuring isn't a problem.

My own concern is that I DO NOT want the subsonic limiter to still roll off I eventually disengage it ! Curt has said that that won't be an issue once the firmware update is here.

I believe Curt. So I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

I just want to update my progess with the SMS-1.

New graphs :

Unequalized but I changed the polarity on SMS-1 from positive to negative :

http://uploadimages.com/view.php?type=thumb3&p=2007/0235/11901247946664.jpg

Equalized :

http://uploadimages.com/view.php?type=thumb3&p=2007/0235/11901247951091.jpg

And last attempt :

http://uploadimages.com/view.php?type=thumb3&p=2007/0235/11901247967149.jpg

So how do I go about improving this graph ? :)

Thanks !

According to Ilkka again, the graphs are accurate. In fact the SMS-1 is about as accurate as the BFD is. Even a test shootout on AVtalk confirmed the results. So accuracy in term of graph reading or measuring isn't a problem.

My own concern is that I DO NOT want the subsonic limiter to still roll off I eventually disengage it ! Curt has said that that won't be an issue once the firmware update is here.

I believe Curt. So I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Well, that is one piece of good news.

Curt is definitely a class act and stand-up guy. So, yes I take him for his word as well. Velodyne has always done well supporting their products too.

I just hope it is a software related issue and not hardware as I suspect it is. The reason I say this is becasue it does not seem to make much of a difference in rolloff when selecting between 5-20Hz subsonic filters. The rolloff still occurs, but only changes slightly...

Hi,
We will as promised eliminate the roll-off filter and check on the input distortion levels.
Curt

Hi,
We will as promised eliminate the roll-off filter and check on the input distortion levels.
Curt

Thanks Curt!:)

Is there an ETA on the software revision?

Thanks Curt ! Things have improved since we last spoke via PM.

My graphs have improved tremendously ! I changed polarity on the SMS-1 and I could not believe the difference that made by itself. I would never have known this had I not used the SMS-1.

Fantastic. Please just check in my final graph, I've boosted output below 20 hz but because the subsonic limiter is set to 15 hz, I don't think it's going to show a lot of improvment even if I do boost. I think I got output from 16 hz and up by about 3 dB's or so.

On some movies, I actually have deeper perceived bass than before eq'eing. More importantly, I can hear more bass, subtle bass that I didn't know was there. Because the crossover region has been improved and output above the crossover point, things just sound much better than before.

In other words, my subwoofer hasn't blown itself apart.

Yet. :)

Hi,
Your curve is really good. Being the cautious one, I would hold off on boosting more at the bottom end, since you have a bass-reflex design and you'll really use up amp power. You have good response to 20hz as is.
Not sure when I'll be at a computer again.
Curt

Curt, are you still on vacation ? Or are you just stopping by to say hello ? :)

Curt, my system really sounds good now. I guess I could still tweak it a little bit more to get even flatter (I probably will anyways) but for now, with my relatively flat response, I'm happy.

For music, I now have more bass than before. Notice that I've taken that 80 hz filter and turned it all the way down. Everything has lined up nicely and bass notes have power and punch.

Although the first thing I guess I'll notice once the subsonic limiter has increased is that I might have a bit too much on the lowend since I've already boosted by about 3 dB's and the slope currently being used attentuates by a factor of 6 dB's.

The only question I should pose is that of the distance control on my AVR. I have it set to around 5.6 m, even though my subwoofer is 2.7 meters away. I was advised on several forums to increase the distance once I get the SMS-1 because there is a delay that is caused.

All I did was observe my FR (where my crossover region is) and increased the distance level and the output actually started to increase until I reached a point where the output started to drop off like a brick. So I used the setting that gave me greatest output in the crossover region.

Is that more or less correct or is my distance control settings way to far ? Thanks !

Hey Curt,

Is there an ETA on the software update you are referring to?

Thanks,
Joe

Apparently the distortion characteristics on the SMS-1 is the same in all the Velodyne DD models ! I can't see how a software revision can fix this as it seems hardware related.

Hopefully we can get an answer soon. I don't want a defective piece of equipment !

Apparently the distortion characteristics on the SMS-1 is the same in all the Velodyne DD models ! I can't see how a software revision can fix this as it seems hardware related.

Hopefully we can get an answer soon. I don't want a defective piece of equipment !

Right. If that is the case, they may have a crisis on their hands.

But, I would not jump to any conclusions until things are tested on the DD side. It would seem that the hardware would be the same, but I am no electronics expert.

sigh. again, I have never heard this distortion people are talking about.

I have TWO SMS-1's and a DD18.

what is this distortion supposed to sound like? because I'd like to check if the measurements of distortion are actually audible.

Right. If that is the case, they may have a crisis on their hands.

But, I would not jump to any conclusions until things are tested on the DD side. It would seem that the hardware would be the same, but I am no electronics expert.
I has been already tested (http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/bfd-forum/6346-behringer-fbq2496-velodyne-sms-1-distortion-2.html#post51600).

I has been already tested (http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/bfd-forum/6346-behringer-fbq2496-velodyne-sms-1-distortion-2.html#post51600).

The SMS-1 has been tested...

I am referring to the electonics in the DD and the output stage prior to amplification. Someone would need to remove the amp from a DD sub and test it which to my knowledge has never been done.

The SMS-1 has been tested...

I am referring to the electonics in the DD and the output stage prior to amplification.
Did you check the link? ;)

sigh. again, I have never heard this distortion people are talking about.

I have TWO SMS-1's and a DD18.

what is this distortion supposed to sound like? because I'd like to check if the measurements of distortion are actually audible.

It depends on a lot of factors. It depends mainly on whether you are using the RCA inputs are the SMSs and at what level you are driving the signal. I also depends on how low your system goes. The distortion increased rapidly until approaching double-digits in the lower octaves.

If you can keep the input signal low and use the volume of the SMS you should not see much if any. I am not aware of an issue with the XLR side.

Did you check the link? ;)

No, I hadn't Richard!:p Thanks for enlightening me there.

Sorry, I stand corrected, it HAS indeed been tested and the results are the same!:(

OUCH! Man, there are going to be some unhappy people out there...

well, if there's a good thing coming out of this ...

I sense pressure to release whatever aces velodyne has up its sleeve.

I'm thinking a new sub that beats the crap out of the other flavors of the month. :)

well, if there's a good thing coming out of this ...

I sense pressure to release whatever aces velodyne has up its sleeve.

I'm thinking a new sub that beats the crap out of the other flavors of the month. :)

True! I had heard rumors some time ago that there was a higher excursion version of the DD-18 in the works. We will see!

Hi,
The ETA for the software update to remove the low frequency roll-off is the end of this month.
Curt

Hi,
The ETA for the software update to remove the low frequency roll-off is the end of this month.
Curt

Thanks Curt! I think we are all looking forward to testing it.:)

Curt, about that distortion issue...

Any comment from the company? I don't think it's going to just go away since it affects all of the flagship products.

It's being looked at. I'll post when I have more info.
Curt

Hello,

My SMS-1 is at repair center at Montreal, I hope he will fix soon and I'm anxious to use it for better bass sensation :)

Looking at my latest Eq'ed graph, is there anything there would might indicate slightly bloated bass for music ? I see that it's relatively flat from 50-80 hz, but there is also a slight peak at 60 hz.

What do you guys think ?

Move the mic around to be sure that you don't have anything punched up that only applies to the exact spot that you had it in. You might have to compromise the setting to get it right.

Distortion levels of 10% or higher in the frequencies around the free air resonance and below of the woofers (around 40-60 Hz) were not uncommon in the days of such classic speakers as the Altec lansing Voice of the Theater and the Klipschorns. The non linear characteristics of the cone movement caused by non linear spring components in an ubcontrolled environment meant that these levels of "distortion" were not only necessary but for many this distortion substituted for a rather "thin" low end in many of the bass reflex and horn speakers of old. As infinite baffles and so called "acoustic suspension" i.e. speakers with floppy cones in a closed box came into vogue, deeper bass that was not so distorted became a reality because more of the variables could be controlled. Distortion products producing 5-14% at this time were not uncommon. With the advent of subwoofers, the closed box design which produced low distortion became popular. Of course there are bass reflex subs out there also, but frankly, most sound pretty bad in comparison to closed box designs. You couple a close box with a device, accelerometer, to measure and correct non linear response and overshoot and voila!!! you have a Velodyne sub. Distortion levels below 5% should be expected and appreciated. Other manufacturer's speakers may sound different and some may even find the added distortion pleasant because it creates a fatter low end. Me, I like my Velodyne with its low distortion and tight bass. Forget the numbers. Listen and enjoy.