Hi,
I'm sending you a PM
Curt

Curt,
Can we get discrete codes for the remote control of the DD18?
Thanks

I am trying to set up a home theater system in a space that measures 34x22x30, with some leakage to other rooms. As this is a freakishly large space to work with, I am at a little bit of a loss as to what to do about subwoofers. Will a Velodyne DD18 (or similar size/powered subwoofer) be sufficient for low frequency reproduction in this environment? Will more than one be required? Can anything work in this space?

Hi,
You have a mini concert hall. I would start with a DD-18 and try several locations. My guess is a pair of DD-18's properly placed would do a credible job. You have over 20K cubic feet, discounting the leakage. Good luck.
Curt

Hi,
Can someone point me to a link with all the Velodyne FSR12 specs??
I use to have it and although the product is listed on the Velodyne website, for the life of me I cant find the specs....

thx
Mark

I have had an F1800R since the mid 90's. I love it. I use it for the LFE channel. I have to turn on the built in HF filter unfortunately and have the pot turned to 80 HZ. Main reason is to avoid the Hum I get from the unit if I switch the filter off. The gain pot is at about 10:00 O'clock. The hum source is internal 60Hz. Is this normal. I do not hear it with the setings I described previously but it bothers me to have something that hums if you turn the gain up. I repeat, the source is internal, not external. It is very susceptible to line voltage spikes like a refrigerator turning on or off. Also, if the power goes down you have to be prepared when it returns. I have had it go into oscillation and almost destroy the house. It is the 600 Watt version. Any ideas on the hum?

Just bought the spl-1000II for a smallish room (1800 cu. ft.) and it rocks. The battle scenes from Master and Commander are awesome. I haven't gone through all 26 pages of the thread but it's great to have Velodyne offer support through this forum.

My question, I've run the auto EQ through my Denon 3805 receiver with the sub level at one-half the max (using the X-over bypass on the sub and 80Hz crossover on the receiver with all speakers set to small). The Denon set the sub at -5 dB. It seems to have plenty of headroom at this level, but i wonder if there is a recommended level that I should set the sub to run the auto EQ?

Hi,
I would set the Velodyne's volume at around 10 O'clock and use a "Y" splitter into both inputs and let the Denon's volume go up some.
Thanks,
Curt

I have chosen the rest of my HT system and now I only have one dilemma, do I want to spend the money on a DD-18 or will a DD-15 do. I have been looking for reviews on both and I can only find the DD-18.

Question for Bruce, if the DD-18 was tested to produce at 100db, 3% @ 15Hz and 1.8% @ 20 Hz how would the DD-15 compare? "Secrets Home Theater" did this test. I am looking for volume versus distortion figures for both subs. Your brochure only states that the frequency response is 15 to 120 for the DD-15 and 14-20 for the DD-18. I find this lacking in information. Are you implying that the DD-15 can perform equally to the DD-18 other than 1 Hz. Therefore the DD-15 is capable of the above volume and distortion performance.

If this is so please clarify.

Regards

LAT

After I buy either DD-15 or DD-18, my question has to do with crossover point or how to best set the system up. I want the subs for HT and not for music, my speakers ATC SCM150A go down to 25Hz and I don't believe there is anything on the recorded music I listen to below that frequency.

I am thinking of using the low pass for HT set at somewhere around 40-60 Hz, to prevent cancellations and/or doubling.

Your thoughts please

This is the same question that I had with my system. The answer to this will come when using the built-in equalizer within the DD-18.

I think you will find (like I did) that the frequency response of your main speakers will start to dramatically fall off below 100hz. I would first use the equalizer with the sub turned on mute - this will tell you what your main speakers can do. You can then activate the sub to start "filling in" the lower frequencies until you get a flat frequency response curve (+/- 3db if possible).

The crossover point is one of the parameters you can use to achieve this. In my system (B&W Sig 800) I set it at 80hz with good results. In choosing this I tried 120, 100, 80 and 60 in my pre-amp.

The brilliance of the DD series is that it really doesn't matter where you set it as you can in most cases adjust the sub to compensate. What I was looking for was an extremely flat response with no "boom's" at particular frequencies due to my room acoustics.

It appears that our mains are both flagship speakers from the UK, I am surprised that you crossed over that high to get the best response, I may will be in the same boat.

At what volume did you you do the testing to find out where your mains fall off,? My reason for the question has to do with my concern of compression in our main speakers at higher volumes that may not exist at lower volumes, say 80db or 90db.

What was the sound integration like, was there any ability to discern the location of the sub?

Do you use the sub for music and HT or for HT only?

First - I wouldn't claim to be an expert at setting up DD units, especially when more than one is involved (I imagine this could be more challenging than a single unit).

Second - With my DD on mute, I placed the microphone exactly at the acoustic focal point of the room (which in my case is where your head is when sitting in the main listening chair). I then ran my preamp (a Linn Kisto) such that it produced an average of 83db from my mains. Each speaker is bi-amped (Classe Omega) so I have adequate power.

Third - as I mentioned previously, the frequency response from my main speakers started to fall off considerably below 100hz (not to say they didn't produce, but the intensity started to fall off).

Fourth - I then started increasing the volume of the sub & adjusting the various equalizer settings until I obtained a flat +/- 3db response at 83db. I then also had a calibration ratio between my pre-amp and the DD.

Fifth - This setup then became my standard setup for classical music. I then fine tuned it for each of the presets (movies, jazz, rock, etc). For movies I adjusted the DD volume up approximately 7-10 units - not because it was sonically better, but because it created a more dramatic effect.

Sixth - After I had everything setup I was amazed by the great variation in how low frequencies were being handled by different recordings. While in general I am very hesitant to adjust the sound (either by post processing or equalizing), many recordings are NOT setup for a superbly tuned system. For example, at times I have to turn down the DD volume as some recording engineers deliberately boost the bass - however, given the power of the DD to accurately reproduce sound, this typically results in a way overpowered low-end of the spectrum.

Seventh - I only have one DD-18 that is located between my right front main and my left rear. This is another reason I selected a lower crossover point (letting my mains carry more of the spectrum), as it made it harder to discern the location of the sub. I would say that in general if you are sitting in the prime listening locations in the room you cannot discern the location of the sub, however it is another story if you are sitting directly in front of the sub.

Anyway, I hope this helps - Kevin

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kwelch

I placed the microphone exactly at the acoustic focal point of the room (which in my case is where your head is when sitting in the main listening chair).

Using pink noise as the appropriate input, a microphone can be used for setting overall speaker levels. Unfortunately, low frequency response measurements are influenced by room boundaries and room volume in such a gross way, that frequency response measurements below 200 Hz can not be accurate. They are in fact misleading. Low frequency response measurement must be performed outside, in free air. There one can get an accurate response and be able to set crossover levels and crossover points between subs and mains. Set mikes at 1 meter in front of the speakers. Measuring speakers outside approximates the ';results in an anechoic chamber.

In lieu of moving the speakers outside, use and trust your ears. They're quite accurate although not very high tech.

I believe the whole point of the eq built into the DD series is to try and create a flat response in the room. Thus when you measure in the room, adjust as required, and re-measure you have a true flat response for the room you are using. The mic, video input, para eq, etc are all built in to the DD series.

enigma

I agree that testing the speaker in free air is the correct way to determine the true performance of the speaker, but as enigma mentions we are trying to get a flat frequency response within a room with its own particular acoustic characteristics. Different rooms and even placement of objects (including people) within the room can have a dramatic effect on the acoustic characteristics.

As a result I would contend that the free air response of your speakers is an academic issue and doesn't really matter. MrHiFi is correct however in that trusting your ears is ultimately the best technique...

Originally posted by Enigma
I believe the whole point of the eq built into the DD series is to try and create a flat response in the room.
This is so true. The main problem in audio, no matter how good the system is, is room-induced colorations, specifically at frequencies below 200Hz. That's the revolutionary thing about the DD series. Forget about "flagship speakers from the UK" that may faithfully reproduce frequencies down to 20Hz; without some kind of equalization they may sound as bad or worse than mid-fi speakers, just because of the room they happen to be in.

If you are lucky enough to have a DD series subwoofer, go ahead and cross the mains over at 80Hz and take advantage of the parametric equalizers and the other goodies. Otherwise why spend the money when there are plenty of subwoofers that can easily reproduce the last octave?

Val

"Forget about "flagship speakers from the UK" that may faithfully reproduce frequencies down to 20Hz"

First, I am not going to forget about the main speakers, they carry most of what I listen to.

Second, no one is arguing with you, to assume that 80Hz is the answer is to my way of thinking not the best way to go about it, I like the way Kevin has put thought into his set up and I will tend to agree with him unless I hear different from the people at Velodyne

Third, lighten up, we are all here to learn and assist one another.

Regards

LAT

Originally posted by LAT
I have chosen the rest of my HT system and now I only have one dilemma, do I want to spend the money on a DD-18 or will a DD-15 do. I have been looking for reviews on both and I can only find the DD-18.

Question for Bruce, if the DD-18 was tested to produce at 100db, 3% @ 15Hz and 1.8% @ 20 Hz how would the DD-15 compare? "Secrets Home Theater" did this test. I am looking for volume versus distortion figures for both subs. Your brochure only states that the frequency response is 15 to 120 for the DD-15 and 14-20 for the DD-18. I find this lacking in information. Are you implying that the DD-15 can perform equally to the DD-18 other than 1 Hz. Therefore the DD-15 is capable of the above volume and distortion performance.

If this is so please clarify.

Regards

LAT

Hi Lat,
I believe Curt PM'd you regarding your DD-15 versus DD-18 inquiry.

Brent Butterworth recently reviewed the DD-15 in Home Entertainment (May/June issue, Vol 3, No. 4, P. 103). It will be posted on www.hemagazine.com in a couple of weeks they tell us.

Hope this helps,
Bruce

Originally posted by Enigma
I believe the whole point of the eq built into the DD series is to try and create a flat response in the room. Thus when you measure in the room, adjust as required, and re-measure you have a true flat response for the room you are using. The mic, video input, para eq, etc are all built in to the DD series.

enigma

Enigma,
We wrote a lot of brochure copy to say exactly that! Your economy of words is appreciated and respected....:)

Bruce

Bruce,
thanks for the update on home magazine.
I have not heard from Curt, possibly my spam filter got him, could you ask him to resend and I will look for it.

Thanks

LAT

Didn't Stereophile recently review the DD-18?
I can't find that mag at stores anymore.
What was their take on it?

hi,bruce:welcome!(........)

i just got my hgs-10 back from your headquater in ca since it just been fixed.it should be a small problem but u still charged me $180.how come?so the fee not base on the cost? even the the hgs-10 has famous problem(i searched on the web,and a lot hgs-10 costumers complained) and ,it was really very lightly used,but...

u r the#1 sub in my mind even i have a whole set m&k ,will u do something for your old "god"?(not this case,later...upgrade?hehe...)btw,how many years warranty on those stuff?

thanks!

Originally posted by cajunlab
Didn't Stereophile recently review the DD-18?
I can't find that mag at stores anymore.
What was their take on it?

Yes, in the current (June) issue. Basically they (Larry Greenhill) said it is a supeb sub, one of the few that didn't intrude on the Quad ESL-989 electrostatic speakers. The reveiw was done with the Quad's in a stereo rig (of course). Positives: Performance (musicality), features, useabiltiy. Negatives: expensive, high pass filter can't be defeated. Overall very positive; any sub that can keep up with a good electrostat on music is doing something right. Gave it "strongest recommendation". Seemed to focus on the interface, setup, ease of getting good real-world results, etc; in addition to musical performance. No real measurements other than those described in conjunction with the setup software, which don't tell a lot about absolute output or freq resp (they are not taken at "ref level", as far as I can tell).

Very good review, but sort of half of a review from a HT perspective, no HT effects, etc; no meas of absoulte output. Very informative from a music standpoint, though.

enigma

Originally posted by Enigma
I believe the whole point of the eq built into the DD series is to try and create a flat response in the room. Thus when you measure in the room, adjust as required, and re-measure you have a true flat response for the room you are using. The mic, video input, para eq, etc are all built in to the DD series.

enigma

When I was in my 20's and 30's I tried every kind of equalization technique I could to obtain a "flat" room response. With a very narrow band equalizer, I used a 32 band unit, one can achieve an amazingly smooth response within +/-5dB. Used to take me over 6 hours to achieve this. I still have some of the graphs I made using a strip recorder sweep generator and a calibrated mike. In those days I worked for the USA National Bureau of Standards, now NTIS. In order to achieve the "flat" response, one had to adjust the individual equalizer settings as much as +15 dB and -12 dB. If you moved a chair or repositioned yourself by a foot or more or if you opened a door or window, the plots changed dramatically. The sad part was that even though doing the equalization and achieving the so called "flat response" appealed to the physicist in me, it sounded awful. Certainly not what the recording engineer intended.

I still have equalizers with calibrated mikes that allowed you to adjust for flat response. I do not use these because the results are absolutely terrible. In summary let me say that I believe equalization, while appropriate in a concert hall or theater, is not appropriate in a small room where the room boundaries are less than the space required for a full wavelength at 40Hz.

Just to be clear, I use my Velodyne F18800R for the LFE channel. Never for accurate music. It is wonderful for reproducing explosions. I have the nail pops to prove it. For accurate reproduction I rely on the response from my VMPS STIII's or EV SentryIII speakers. The two "sound" completely different and depending on the music, I will use one or the other. For HT I use all 4 and the F1800R.

The idea of low-bass equalization is not to create a perfectly flat frequency response, but to diminish the bumps (mainly) and some of the troughs in response. That has been previously discussed in the thread, I believe. While most of what MrHiFi says is true --trying to flatten out a 15dB trough will quickly make you run out of both amplifier power and driver excursion limits-- one doesn't have to have a perfectly flat low frequency response to hear much better sound. I find it puzzling why reducing a nasty 80Hz bump, for example, wouldn't make the sound better, at the listening position, in an important practical way, and with the bonus of Velodyne's digital-domain implementation. I have used the Behringer 2496 digital equalizer on separate subwoofers to advantage in several rooms, and listening to a well set up (including its built-in bass equalizer) Vandersteen 5A, for example, is a revelation.

Hope I'm not too late to ask my question. I just joined tonight.:o

I currently have, and have had for a few years now, an HGS-12 sub. The back of it has a sticker stating the year 1999. To be candid, I enjoy this so much that I have not kept on eye on the sub market to see what's going on etc.

I am moving to a much bigger house and will have my system in a room much bigger than current. Therefore I plan on selling my current sub and buying one of the new ones.

My question is, how do I know what model mine is? I know it's the HGS-12, but is it a model 1 or model 2 and how would I know?

I hate to see it go, it has treated me extremely well.

Thank you.

Hi,
It's a HGS-12. Technically there was no HGS-12 model 1. There was a series II. The HGS-12 series II's are indicated on the model number.
Thanks,
Curt

Hi Bruce and Curt. I have an HGS-12 (Series II I believe) that produces a low level hum through the speaker once it turns on, even if no input is getting to it. I have a Yamaha receiver that sends the signal to the HGS via RG6 coax and F connectors. I have a short "Y" splitter connecting the RG6 from the wall to both RCA inputs on the HGS. The Yamaha only has a single coax/F connector to the single LFE RCA jack. I use RG6 because the room was prewired for a 5.1 setup by the builder.

I think it must be some type of ground loop, but I'm at a loss to fix it when the signal is sent via coax. I had the same type of hum at my former home and eliminated it by using automotive RCS monster cables that have a single grounding wire run the length of the RCA cables. I attached one end of the grounding wire to the external RCA lugs at the receiver and HGS ends of the cable. I have no idea how to do that with RG6.

What can I do to eliminate this hum?

I had a similar problem when setting up my buddy's home theater. If the sub has a 3 prong AC cord. Try plugging it into a two prong adapter and then into the wall. Let me know if this works.

Originally posted by vvv
I had a similar problem when setting up my buddy's home theater. If the sub has a 3 prong AC cord. Try plugging it into a two prong adapter and then into the wall. Let me know if this works.

I'll try that.

I unplugged the RCA inputs to see if that may make a difference. The hum, which is the result of cone movement, was dependent upon a combination of the volume knob and variable crossover. The hum decreased significantly to a tolerable level if the crossover was turned to about 80 hz or below and the volume knob was set at 50% or less.

Could this still be related to the AC power? Any other suggestions?

Gilly,
I sent you a PM regarding the hum several days ago.
Curt

Originally posted by curt c
Gilly,
I sent you a PM regarding the hum several days ago.
Curt

Ahhhh, I got it now. Didn't have automatic PM notification turned on.

Thanks, Curt. You have a PM back.

Hello all--

I have an HGS-18 subwoofer that started giving me some trouble the other night. While watching the beginning of Toy Story 2, the sub started making loud thump/popping noises as the low frequency signals increased. It definitely conformed to the peaks of the signals that it was trying to play. The louder the input signal the louder the popping noise. I removed the input to the subwoofer and the popping stopped. However, I was able to smack the side of the subwoofer and get it to make an occasional popping noise with no input signal attached. This made me believe that there might be some poor solder connections on the internal circuit boards (I have some experience repairing electronics equipment). I took apart the sub and resoldered all of the connections on the circuit boards. Unfortunately, this did not alter the behavior of the subwoofer. It is still failing in exactly the same way. I also turned the two controls for volume and crossover point back and forth to see if they might be dirty and causing the problem. This didn't seem to be the case.

Does this sound like a common problem that you are aware of? Are there any other troubleshooting steps that I could perform? I might be able to record the sound that it is making and post it as a .wav file if necessary.

Any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Chad Van Zandt

Chad,
Please contact out service manager, David Santos. His phone number is; (408) 465-2819, or ( dave.santos@velodyne.com ). It appears your amplifier may need service.
Curt

Hello to all the Velodyne Staff :-)

I live in Bavaria, Germany. I used to live in Houston Texas were i had bought (years ago) a Velodyne CT100 Subwoofer. I always liked him, he was truly amazing for its price. Now that a few years have passed and i currently run the following speaker setup in the HT. 2x Onkyo THX SP1-A and SP1-P subwoofers together with the rest of the Onkyo THX System. I am really happy with it, but of course that memory of the "cute" HG12 shaking the walls will not leave my head.

The prices from Audio Reference in Munich on the velodyne subwoofers are simply too high.

Why are they so expensive here in Germany?

Is there a way of buying one in the US and shipping it over hear by sea to save cash?

I have never heard of any subwoofer that can keep up with my Maggies. Is there one that can truly keep up with Magnetostatics from 40Hz below?

I would like one to support my 2 subs, but my room is not very big.

Thanks everyone
Florian

Here are some pictures of the current setup.

http://www.maggiefanclub.de/pics/mymaggies.jpg
http://www.maggiefanclub.de/pics/ht1.jpg
http://www.maggiefanclub.de/pics/ht2.jpg

I was thinking of placing him on the right side (after moving the cabinet), since the Maggie needs the rearwall refections.

Thanks

-Florian

What benefits does the velodyne DD series offer over a parametric EQ like the one here:

http://www.behringer.com/DSP1124P/index.cfm?lang=ENG

This has 10 user selectable bands and I imagine one could get a pretty flat response curve using it.

I am in the process of looking at my sub 'situation' (i currently have a single monitor-audio FB212) and am intrigued by the DD series but wonder if the same results cant be achieved from a $125 outboard parametric EQ.

Thanks for any insights!

John

Originally posted by Mr.Magneplanar
Hello to all the Velodyne Staff :-)

I live in Bavaria, Germany. I used to live in Houston Texas were i had bought (years ago) a Velodyne CT100 Subwoofer. I always liked him, he was truly amazing for its price. Now that a few years have passed and i currently run the following speaker setup in the HT. 2x Onkyo THX SP1-A and SP1-P subwoofers together with the rest of the Onkyo THX System. I am really happy with it, but of course that memory of the "cute" HG12 shaking the walls will not leave my head.

The prices from Audio Reference in Munich on the velodyne subwoofers are simply too high.

Why are they so expensive here in Germany?

Is there a way of buying one in the US and shipping it over hear by sea to save cash?

I have never heard of any subwoofer that can keep up with my Maggies. Is there one that can truly keep up with Magnetostatics from 40Hz below?

I would like one to support my 2 subs, but my room is not very big.

Thanks everyone
Florian

Hi Florian,
As a person who often uses Maggies, I can tell you the SPL's, HGS's and DD's are all a great match for the Maggies. As far as price in Germany goes, we have no real control over that. Dealers set their prices. We do not sell direct and I'm not aware of dealers who ship to Europe. If you were in the U.S. you could purchase the 220V version and take it back with you.
Thanks for your interest.
Curt

"What benefits does the velodyne DD series offer over a parametric EQ"


Hi John,
I have not used the Behringer, so I cannot speak to its capabilities. Does it include a mic, generator and RTA? With the "DD" series you receive a complete package. Viewing the signal sweep on your television as you correct (equalize) in "real time" and see the results is inspiring because you can believe what you see. And it's simple to do. The great thing about the "DD" series is you're starting with the world's best (servo controlled) subwoofer, so accuracy and low distortion are a given. What can be achieved with a lesser subwoofer and an inexpensive equalizer is hard to say. I can say with certainity that you won't equal a "DD". The "DD" series also provides complete flexibility for crossover frequencies, slopes, phase, polarity, subsonic filters, etc. Another great feature is the ability to tune the servo for maximum accuracy or maximum output while still retaining very low distortion. Though very reasonable for the performance and features you receive, the "DD" series are not built to a price point - they are made to be the very best.
Thanks,
Curt

I heard that the cross over on the DD-15 or DD-18 can not be fully removed (ie. only turned up high) should one want to use the cross over features of their preamp. Is this correct? If this is correct, will a feature to completely remove the DD's cross over be implemented in the future and when?

Frank,
If the "DD" low pass filter is set at 199, none of the lower frequencies from your processor or receiver will be affected by the "DD" low pass filter. A bypass option will be available in the next major software update. This update is planned for Sept. 04.
Thanks,
Curt

Curt

Will the bypass option be an upgrade that I can do to the DD-18 I just ordered?
Thanks

LAT

Originally posted by curt c
"What benefits does the velodyne DD series offer over a parametric EQ"


Hi John,
I have not used the Behringer, so I cannot speak to its capabilities. Does it include a mic, generator and RTA? With the "DD" series you receive a complete package. Viewing the signal sweep on your television as you correct (equalize) in "real time" and see the results is inspiring because you can believe what you see. And it's simple to do. The great thing about the "DD" series is you're starting with the world's best (servo controlled) subwoofer, so accuracy and low distortion are a given. What can be achieved with a lesser subwoofer and an inexpensive equalizer is hard to say. I can say with certainity that you won't equal a "DD". The "DD" series also provides complete flexibility for crossover frequencies, slopes, phase, polarity, subsonic filters, etc. Another great feature is the ability to tune the servo for maximum accuracy or maximum output while still retaining very low distortion. Though very reasonable for the performance and features you receive, the "DD" series are not built to a price point - they are made to be the very best.
Thanks,
Curt

Thanks for the detailed response!

If i wanted to daisy chain another sub with a DD sub, do i need to use the single ended from my processor or can i use XLR out the DD sub and then single ended out sub #2?

Is there any benefit to using a 2nd DD sub instead of any other sub? (besides the fact that the DD sub will be a better overall performer, i walked right into that one!)

Also, does the DD series allow you to calibrate bass response to a listening 'area' and not just a single location? I'd like to be able to accomplish this by moving the microphone to different points in the room (i have 8 berkline chairs in my home theater and would like to get some level of uniform bass response for that entire area) and have the DD software work its magic based on measurements at those points. Does the DD provide tools to accomplish this or is it up to the user to move the mic to different locations and optimize manually?

Thanks again for the information.

John

"Will the bypass option be an upgrade that I can do to the DD-18 I just ordered?"

Hi,
Absolutely! That's the beauty of the "DD" series. All upgrades will be on the website to be downloaded at your convenience.
Curt

Could you tell me what kind of Amp is in my F1800R? I know it is a 600 Watt amp but is it class B or AB? Is the cabinet shielded inside to prevent hum or affect picture tubes?

"If i wanted to daisy chain another sub with a DD sub, do i need to use the single ended from my processor or can i use XLR out the DD sub and then single ended out sub #2?"

Yes, you can use XLR to "DD" #1 sub and single ended to sub#2.



"Is there any benefit to using a 2nd DD sub instead of any other sub? (besides the fact that the DD sub will be a better overall performer, i walked right into that one!)"

Naturally I would recommend using the same subwoofer for the second unit, or consider the same size HGS-X subwoofer for the second one. It would have the same tonal qualities.



"Also, does the DD series allow you to calibrate bass response to a listening 'area' and not just a single location? I'd like to be able to accomplish this by moving the microphone to different points in the room (i have 8 berkline chairs in my home theater and would like to get some level of uniform bass response for that entire area) and have the DD software work its magic based on measurements at those points. Does the DD provide tools to accomplish this or is it up to the user to move the mic to different locations and optimize manually?"

Currently the "DD" software is designed to optimize for one location. To optimize for an area, we would need multiple (mic) readings and have some sort of averaging method. Something to think about for futures. In your setup I would equalize in the center of your total listening area. Utilizing two or more subwoofers carefully placed, you should be able to provide uniform bass for the total area.
Thanks,
Curt

"Could you tell me what kind of Amp is in my F1800R? I know it is a 600 Watt amp but is it class B or AB? Is the cabinet shielded inside to prevent hum or affect picture tubes?"

Hi Art,
Your amplifier is a class "D", same as used in the HGS and DD series.
The F-1800R is video shielded.
Curt

Originally posted by curt c
"If i wanted to daisy chain another sub with a DD sub, do i need to use the single ended from my processor or can i use XLR out the DD sub and then single ended out sub #2?"

Yes, you can use XLR to "DD" #1 sub and single ended to sub#2.



"Is there any benefit to using a 2nd DD sub instead of any other sub? (besides the fact that the DD sub will be a better overall performer, i walked right into that one!)"

Naturally I would recommend using the same subwoofer for the second unit, or consider the same size HGS-X subwoofer for the second one. It would have the same tonal qualities.



"Also, does the DD series allow you to calibrate bass response to a listening 'area' and not just a single location? I'd like to be able to accomplish this by moving the microphone to different points in the room (i have 8 berkline chairs in my home theater and would like to get some level of uniform bass response for that entire area) and have the DD software work its magic based on measurements at those points. Does the DD provide tools to accomplish this or is it up to the user to move the mic to different locations and optimize manually?"

Currently the "DD" software is designed to optimize for one location. To optimize for an area, we would need multiple (mic) readings and have some sort of averaging method. Something to think about for futures. In your setup I would equalize in the center of your total listening area. Utilizing two or more subwoofers carefully placed, you should be able to provide uniform bass for the total area.
Thanks,
Curt

Thanks again for the info, just one more... :)

For a room 15x22x8 what would be the recommended configuration of DD units with 1 sub? 2 subs? What if i wanted to upgrade to 2 at a later date but just get one to start?

I listen to 1/2 movies and 1/2 music but really want a lot of clean bass for movies.

John

John,
Is this room shut off from other rooms? If so, two "DD" 12's would be very good. I would lean toward starting with one "DD-15" and add a second 15 if needed. I love the power and authority of the larger subs in medium to large rooms.
Hope this all helps and Good Luck. Feel free to call me anytime. My direct number is (480) 595-7141, PT.
Curt

Hi Florian,
As a person who often uses Maggies, I can tell you the SPL's, HGS's and DD's are all a great match for the Maggies. As far as price in Germany goes, we have no real control over that. Dealers set their prices. We do not sell direct and I'm not aware of dealers who ship to Europe. If you were in the U.S. you could purchase the 220V version and take it back with you.
Thanks for your interest.
Curt

Thank you for the answere. Its too bad there are no good ways of getting a Velodyne Subwoofer here in germany. I run a small (in US standards) electronics distribution company, is there any way to become a distributor for Velodyne here in germany?

Thanks
Florian

PS: The german Maggie Fan Club (forum building in progress) is here www.maggiefanclub.de

Florian,
I sent you a PM.
Curt

Thanks a lot. Ill see what i can do. :-)

Florian,

Geez, I hope you're not the same Florian I tried to help out about 2 yrs ago. If so, Curt, pleeeeeze help this poor guy out...he's been waiting sooo long. :)

Randy
(Chicago)

Hi guys, hope I'll find some help here.

I have just bought a pre-owned DD18 from a nice guy from NY.

As I live in Italy I am obliged to set the power supply of the amplifier at 220 volts environment instead of the 110 factory set.

I have been told and confirmed by Velodyne that it is possible to modify the power supply environment to 220 volts simply changing and removing some jumpers on the amplifier board and - obivously - changing some fuses.

Now, is there any simple soul that could help me indicating those jumpers?

You know, it would be not so nice to send the board to the distributor in order to have it modified and loosing the time and the economic gain I realized from the grey-market purchase; as it looks to be a simple operation, I feel enough clever to carry it on.

Thanks a lot for your comprehension.
Luca

Luca,

The process of converting this 117V / 60Hz unit to the 220V / 50Hz standard you require is a bit more involved then simply altering a few jumpers on the amp.
Because the domestic U.S. unit is set to the NTSC video standard the amplifier on the unit also requires a software update so that the video can be displayed on a PAL / SECAM display.
Without the required software update the video will not sync with the display and the Digital Drive software will be completely useless.
My suggestion is that you get the unit into the hands of MPI our distributor in that area and have them assist you.

D. Santos
Customer Service Mgr.
Velodyne Acoustics, Inc.

Thanks for your answer which is greatly appreciated.

I have to say I don't need the upgrade to Pal systems because I have a plasma that accepts Pal, NTSC, Secam etc.

I just need that someone points me out which are the jumpers to move: is this possible or, for company policy, it is not?

Thanks
Luca

First of all, I work in customer service and it is really great to see other companies take steps like this to keep people happy. It's a shame you can't get good service everywhere.

Now for my questions (sorry for the long windedness):

I am a newbie to the world of HT. I just recently purchased a 5.1 capable DVD player to hook into my older Sony DD "ready" receiver. I know it's not the ideal situation but...

I am running Klipsch KG .5's as fronts and surrounds. Freq response is 60Hz-20kHz±3dB. I have a KV 1 center - 85Hz-20kHz±3dB. My most recent addition is a Velodyne DLS 3500 (living in an apartment sucks).

I have some questions on setup between these speakers and the sub. My DVD player (Mitsubishi 8040) has settings for large and small speakers. They (instructions) define large as being able to play sub 100Hz. So I set my fronts and rears to large and left the center on small. I set the DLS low pass at 80Hz. Does this sound correct or should I set all the speakers to small? If I change them to small, do I need to readjust the crossover on the sub to about 100? I couldn't find any specific info on the DVD player that tells me what the crossover is when they are on small - I'm guessing 100Hz.

Second. I seem to have a bass dead spot and it is, lucky for me, right where I sit. I know that it is most likely a factor of room/furniture. The odd thing is the sound really comes alive when you stand up. Everything seems smoother and deeper. The best response seems to be in about a 5-7 foot arc from in front of the sub, only while standing. The sub is on the floor in the front of the room. I linked to a drawing of the room- more info is better than none, right? Light Blue are the KG's, pink the KV, red the Velodyne. In its current spot, it is aiming at a couch. I moved it to the yellow circle in front of the fireplace and oriented it every way I could and it never cured the problem. Sitting the sub on its side seemed to help a little. Changing the phase didn't make any difference to my ears. I just can't believe how great it sounds 3' higher!

The room is on a carpeted slab with another unit above, 8' flat ceiling. I still have some spots to try it in - and some furniture to move around but I thought I would toss the question out to see if it's something glaringly obvious.


home.hiwaay.net/~lbrewer/images/setup.JPG

Any help on either of these issues would be greatly appreciated.

DSP,

I used to own Klipshorns many years ago. Some of that "thiness" you perceive may be a result of the philosophy behind Klipsch speakers. Anyway, here is what I would do. BTW, I have a Velodyne F1800R and 2 VMPS STIII towers. EV SentryIII's at the rear and a carbon fiber smaller unit at the center which I use only when friends come to watch and they are more than 20 degrees off axis.

Set your Sub in a corner and adjust it tor roll off above 120Hz. Use it only for the LFE channel. Set your Front and rears to large. Keep them within 12 feet of each other. Set the center to small.

"I am a newbie to the world of HT. I just recently purchased a 5.1 capable DVD player to hook into my older Sony DD "ready" receiver. I know it's not the ideal situation but..."

Hi,
Try doing the things Art suggests. A corner location should give you better balance. I would set all the speakers to "small", I've found the fewer speakers playing the low frequencies, the better. Try it both ways.
Curt

DSPNeon

Try it both ways.

Trying the good suggestions from Art & Curt - definitely do that.

This is my experience with bass management - depends on your tastes, your room, music or movies, etc.

In my case, even though my main speakers are rated to 39Hz-20kHz +/- 2dB, I have them set to small for listening to DVD-Audio and SACD (my DVD player is limited to small or large speakers in it's set-up). For movies my processor has the capability to adjust the crossover from 25Hz-160Hz (if memory serves), however if I only had a choice between small or large, I would choose small.

I have tried it both ways, and I get less low frequency output from my system when I have my main speakers set to large. Set to small, any low frequency info sent to your main speakers, will now be sent to your sub. The crossover point is generally 80Hz for small.

As for the position of your sub, that will be best determined by your room. I too find that if I walk around the room, or the next room for that matter, the bass changes dramatically!

FYI - I have an HGS Series II HGS-18.

This is a very basic description, to try to keep this post as short as possible.

Good luck!

Dan

Don,

I find it humorous to hear you talk about bass. When I was in my 20's and 30's I thought I could control everything about my stereo system. I believed the specs. Unfortunately, the specs are taken in an anechoic chamber at 1 meter from the geometric centers. That has little relation to your room. Also if your walls are less than 30 feet apart expect some huge bumps in the low end because the room will resonate as it attempts to produce even one wavelength at the lowest audible frequencies.

The thinness you perceive is accurracy. The ral world does not boom and thump. Listen to an orchestra sometime or just go outside and listen to ambient sounds. No thumping!!!!!!!! That subwoofer should be inaudible except when a bass viola or bass drum is hit.

Visitors often comment that my system doesn't have a lot of bass. Yet when they hear low frqency material they say it sounds so real. That is the trick. You achieve that by using extremely high powered amps and very efficient low frequency drivers that are of low mass and are able to accelerate quickly and follow the low frequency waveform acurately. IMHO servos like those incorporated in the Velodyne's really work well. I made some graphs of my F1800R's running at 25Hz with 100Watts input. I did it outside and used a mike and a scope to watch the input vs the output from the speaker. Compared to anything else I had ever done that with the Velodynes were magnificent. Sealed systems and some I built were absolutely awful. Interestingly the Dynaco A25's and the VMPS STIII Super Towers were pretty good.

Again, great info from this thread.

I have some testing to do this weekend with settings and positioning of both the sub and furniture.

Thanks!

Tim

Dear Experts:

I've just posted this on the AV Talk DD thread, but I'm looking for all the expertise I can get, so please help me out if you can. I'm in the process of converting an 18' x 28' living room with a 14' cathedral ceiling (5700 ft3, with no additional openings) to a living room/home theater, and have been enamored of the DD series of subwoofers ever since I read John Johnson's Secrets review of the Velodyne DD-18.

For aesthetic (WAF) as well as acoustic reasons it looks like we'll be going with a Sonus Faber Cremona surround system (Cremona fronts and center, Auditor side surrounds, Wall rears). Based on what I've read (I've dutifully followed this forum, as well as the AV Talk thread), I'd prefer to go with the DD-18 subwoofer (space is not an issue for one sub), for excellent bass as well as its equalization functionality (at least as important in my untested environment). The salespeople at Magnolia HiFi, however, who carry the Cremonas like to pair them with REL subs (they don't carry the DD line), and espouse the line that an 18" sub will not be as musical or nimble as one with a smaller driver.

My questions:

1) For my space and needs (70% movies, 30% music), will a DD-18 be overkill, and would a DD-15 work just as well, or even better? Are there any circumstances where in a reasonably large room like mine one might prefer the DD-15 to the DD-18, other than for reasons of size and expense?

2) Is there any reason why "audiophile" speakers such as the Cremonas would be better served by a self-proclaimed "audiophile" sub like a REL (I know about the REL's crossover to a speaker set to LARGE, but I guess that's a tangential discussion), rather than one of the Velodyne DD subs? I've been given that distinct impression by more than one supposedly "high end" salesperson I've dealt with.

3) If I go with the DD-18, if I end up wanting a second sub to even out room modes for more than one listening position (I won't know until everything's in place and calibrated), could I go with a DD-12 for the 2nd sub (I don't have space for 2 DD-18s), or would a DD-15 match up better with a DD-12, if that's as large as I can go for the 2nd sub?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts. These forums are invaluable for neophytes like me, and I'll appreciate any input.

Brian

I have a 6800 cu ft room and I went with the DD-18 with no regrets. I am using ATC scm150A for mains, SCM20A Towers for rears and a single SCM50A in the center. The sound is amazing to say the least, I don't believe I would get the same with a smaller sub or subs, plus the idea of a sub with a driver the same size or smaller than my mains sound counter intuitive.

All the best

Thanks, LAT, that's just the kind of feedback I'm looking for.

Brian

[QUOTE]Originally posted by brian johnson

Hi Brian,

"1) For my space and needs (70% movies, 30% music), will a DD-18 be overkill, and would a DD-15 work just as well, or even better?"

For your size room the DD-18 is the proper recommendation.



"2) Is there any reason why "audiophile" speakers such as the Cremonas would be better served by a self-proclaimed "audiophile" sub like a REL or?"

Absolutely not. The Velodyne DD's and servos are about as "audiophile" as you can get. That is if you're looking for accuracy and low distortion. Many of the so called audiophile subwoofers I've listened to, have lacked much (really) low frequency output. So it depends on what you like.
Larry Greenhill (Stereophile Magazine) is probably the premier audio (2-channel) subwoofer reviewer. Read his review of the DD-18 in the June issue. Note he uses the Quad electrostats with the DD-18. Many consider these speakers almost impossible to integrate with a subwoofer. The DD-18 is Larry's reference and believe me he can have any sub he wants. IMO the DD-18 is in a class by itself.


"3) If I go with a DD-18 and end up wanting a second sub to smooth out room modes for a second location, will a DD-12 work with the DD-18?"

This is a tough one. I would always suggest using the same size and model when using multiple subs but it can be done. The larger unit would be the primary unit dedicated to the whole area and the smaller unit acting as a fill. You would need to experiment with location. Perhaps some others have experimented with this and have some verified results or ideas.

Good listening,
Curt

IMHO, one should never install two subwoofers in a normal home theater. One is more than enough. If you install two, there will be some cancellation and reinforcement because of the difference in location. If you look at the physics behind low frequency propagation, you will se that one source is always better than multiple sources except for those cases where you need a larger surface area. In that case precautions must be taken to insure that all the drivers are precisely in phase and are located in proximate space. All of what I just said only applies inside walled space not in free air/outside.

I use 2 subs (SVS PC Ultra & B&W ASW2500) in my small room 7x14ft, and it sounds much with the 2 subs. I had intended to sell the B&W when I bought the SVS and I only tried the 2 together for a laugh. It really helps to flatten the frequency response and the integration with satellites is also much improved.

I had a hard time getting my 2 subwoofers right. But now i am pretty happy. But then again, will see if i switch to a seperate Magnepan 5.1 channel :-)

This hobby is really really cool, but man does it limit my cash flow ;-)

Thanks, LAT, Curt, Art, Jeff, and Mr. MP. I appreciate all your responses regarding the DD subwoofers (especially Curt, very helpful), and also the challenges and controversy in going to multiple subs, especially those of different sizes, even if from the same vendor. Unless something else emerges, I think I'll start with one DD-18, and then take it from there.

LAT, one question: given the prodigious size of the bass drivers on your mains (15"), are you running your mains full range, or are you crossing them over to the DD-18 for the really low stuff? Just curious.

Brian

I am thoroughly confused here.

When i connect the DD15 to my anthem D1 via stereo RCA plugs and set the anthem to "direct" mode. The sub makes no sound regardless of what i do with the volume. I can hear my main speakers by turning up the colume on the D1 but the sub is non existent and the volume has no effect.

When i set the anthem to DSP mode, the sub seems to work ok. But this is taking the analog signal, converting it to digital, crossing it over at 80hz, and then sending everything below that to the sub. Which kinda makes sense...

My question is how can someone who CANNOT convert an analog signal to digital and output the LFE to the sub set this thing up? It doesnt make any sense to me. I would think the sub would just pump out LFE stuff on its own without it going through the processor?

Any help is appreciated. ITs kinda late so maybe its me... Hopefully... :? :(

John

John --

I just posted this on the AV Talk DD thread (I'm following both also), but I thought I'd paste it here as well just for continuity of discussion:

I'm still learning (understatement), but I remember reading in the Audioholics Yamaha RX-Z9 review that the Z9 has no "subwoofer out" in the "Direct" mode, which I took to mean that it functions just like what you're experiencing with the D1. The reviewer also mentioned that to get around that, one has to abandon the benefits of "Direct," and listen in "2 channel stereo", which one poster described as a "deal breaker."

Maybe the D1 is doing something similar? Given that this was described as a deficiency with the Z9, I hope that that's not the case.

Brian

I am sure that is exactly it. My old Marantz SR7200, and my H/K AVR7000 did not play the subwoofer in "Direct" Mode. As far as i know, the fronts are set to large and the subwoofer=no in "Direct" Mode.

Greetings

-Florian

OK so the DD series is counting on the fact that your receiver/processor can convert an incoming analog signal to digital and then re route sub-80hz (or whatever you speecify) to the LFE input?

I would think a lot of people dont have a unit that has this feature that only have a processor that can pass 2 channel analog straight through to the outputs? How would they set it up?

I could see if the DD provided a DIGITAL output, that would be easy for anyone, but analog L/R outs?

Slightly less confused now but not completely.... :)

John

Brian,
I run the 150's full range without the sub, I also have a Tact 2.0 S that I use to keep the 150's flat to 25Hz so I can do without the sub. I don't play any music that I know of that has material below 25Hz. Mostly blues, rock and pop music, some classical but usually with vocalist.

Levino

Originally posted by Expletive
OK so the DD series is counting on the fact that your receiver/processor can convert an incoming analog signal to digital and then re route sub-80hz (or whatever you speecify) to the LFE input?

I would think a lot of people dont have a unit that has this feature that only have a processor that can pass 2 channel analog straight through to the outputs? How would they set it up?

I could see if the DD provided a DIGITAL output, that would be easy for anyone, but analog L/R outs?

Slightly less confused now but not completely.... :)

John

I spoke to curt and he cleared this up for me. Thanks for the replies.

John

Does anyone know if there are discrete power on/off codes for the DD series? I am trying to put the sub as part of macro in my pronto but with the power being a toggle i cant guarentee i wont be turning the sub OFF when i run through macros to switch modes.

Also, if anyone knows how to set this up to use a 12v trigger from my Anthem D1 that might work too...

Thanks in advance for any suggestions...

John

I asked this same question & Curt said they were "working on it".
I think he may have forgotten.
I assume they had to have the codes during design & it would be a simple matter of finding them.
Maybe not.

Bruce,
A friend of mine is trying to talk me into buying a new DPS-10. I have DEMOed 2 subs so far and returned them (Sunfire Super Jr. and and Velodyne CHT-8). Both were decent, but I wasn't able to tune them to my liking for multichannel audio performance. HT was not a problem.

Q1) Can you recommend the DPS-10 for excellent audio performance?

On a side note, I spent most of my budget on the Fr 3 speakers, so (for now), I have to take it easy regarding the cost of the subwoofer. My system:

HK AVR630 Receiver
Denon 2900 Uni Player (on the way!)
Revel Fronts M20, C32
Atlantic Technology 350 Series Surrounds
??? subwoofer

Q2) Why can I only find these at Circuit City?

Thanks for your help,
Randy

I sent you a PM.
Curt

Hello

I am looking at the Velodyne DD12 or SPL1000 II.

What are the ways to connect the Sub to a Bryston BP25 Pre Amp.

My speakers are B&W Sig805 and if I am adding a sub I would prefer not to run them full range.

Do I need to buy an external crossover (Marchand or Bryston 10B SUB-Xover) for best results.

Thanks

Hi,
On either the SPL-1000 or DD-12, you would run the output of your preamp into the inputs of the subwoofer, and then run the outputs of the sub to the amp powering the 805's. This will roll off the bass going to the speakers (6db@80hz). You then adjust the low pass filter as needed. You do not need an external crossover.
Thanks,
Curt

To all of you who may be on the fence concerning the purchase of a Velodyne Sub, take my advice and buy one. I purchased the F1800R, a servo contolled 18" 600 Watt RMS model in the late '90's and it is magnificent. In my $50,000+ A/V system/home theater, it is one of the pieces I really enjoy. I have it set to roll off above 80Hz even though I use it for the LFE channel in the Dolby Digital setup. You do not have to spend a lot of money to get great sound if you buy the correct piece of gear. Velodyne's servo controlled subs deliver the most accurate low end I ever heard. I own two VMPS Super Towers and they have usable low end to 17Hz but the Velodyne's F1800R's low end is much more accurate than the 2 15" active/passive, 12" active and two 10" actives that make up the low end on the Towers. the towers do give you a clean upper bass that is incredible. The two produce a low end that often makes you wonder whether tha "ambiance" in the room produced by the speakers is real. When you are in a forest scene, the low end is just what you would "feel". That is what the Velodyne's deliver a "feeling".

Folks at Velodyne,

I purchased an FSR15 new around 1998. I think my sub is a 1997 build.

The sub has performed well until last Friday evening. When I turned on the sub, instead of hearing the normal click, it made a popping sound and then emitted no output even though an input signal should have been present. I shut off the sub, unplugged it for a minute, then plugged it in, turned it on, and experienced the same popping sound, and no output. Then I shut off the sub and left it alone for a few minutes. When I tried it again, I got the click I normally hear and the sub worked fine. We used the sub again on Saturday, and it worked fine.

We have a touch lamp that turns on by itself when we have a power irregularity. We found the lamp on Friday evening, indicating that we had experienced a power fluctuation that day. The FSR15 is plugged into an MOV based surge suppressor.

Do you think a power source issue caused a glitch in the sub? Do think we are headed for problems with the sub? I would really appreciate your thoughts on this.

Thanks.

Dear hjw,

The power outage would certainly seem to be the most reasonable explanation for the strange occurance you had the other evening.
I take it that this is the first time anything of this nature has occured with this product, so I would advise that you not panic.
Let's monitor the situation and see what if anything developes over time and if needed we'll be happy to help you out.

Regards,

D. Santos
Velodyne Acoustics, Inc.

D. Santos,

The FSR15 has worked perfectly except on Friday evening.

Hope it was just a fluke related to the power irregularity we apparently had that day.

Thank you for the reply.

Henry

I've got what I think is a very interesting situation and I would love some of you weigh in.

First, a little background (I'll try to make this brief).

In December of 2000, after a lot of investigation, I bought a HT system and converted a small extra bedroom (10' X 10' X 9') into a den. The system consisted of the following principle components:

Mits 55907
Denon 3801
Velodyne HGS-10
B&W CDM NT 1's (fronts)
B&W CDM CNT (center)
B&W LM Monitors (rears)
Rotel RDV-1080 DVD
Tributaries Cables

I was able to fit everything in a closet (with the doors removed) and while it was tight, it looked and sounded great. Needless to say, I've been a happy camper.

This summer, me and the missus decided to move to a bigger house in the NW burbs of Chicago. One of the priorities was a place for the home theater where I could spread things out. We found an amazing house and set out to get it. In the final round of negotiation, the woman selling the house threw in "all the electronics in the basement" (her husband had died suddenly two years previously and she had never used it, as best I could tell). His system consisted of the following:

Hitachi Ultravision 50UX58B/K
Bose Acoustimass Speaker System (small single cubes)
Sony 560D DVD Player
other misc. pieces

Not things I would buy, but the price was right. His HT is located in the basement (listening area of approx. 30 X 17 X 7.5 and basement extends around corner another 33 X 9 X 7.5) and housed in a built-in bookcase. Unfortunately, my beloved Mits wouldn't fit where his Hits and the room really calls for a bigger TV . So, I sold my Mits and will be in the market for a new HDTV towards the end of the year, when I can have the wall unit modified.

Needless to say, the first thing I want to do is rewire the audio (I won't get into Bose bashing, but it appears he also wired the front cubes directly to a separate receiver and they sound blown when tested with Avia. Also, the AM unit dates from 1995, so it doesn't have receiver inputs to allow for digital processing).

My question (and I do have one) is this. I know that my HGS-10 is not really the right sub for this space (something like the HGSX-15 or DD-15 would be better). But balanced with the CDM NT 1's and given we don't listen to most movies really loud anyway,

1. Will it be a problem to use the HGS-10 for a few months and upgrade it at the same time as the TV?

I know people have been known to overdrive the HGS-10's in too big environments and it still has resale value, so I don't want to "blow it". My instinct is to try it with the volume knob at about half to two-thirds and set the balance using the 3801. I would assume that at that level, I shouldn't run too much of a risk.

Also, the Velodyne web site does a good job of sizing the sub based on the cubic feet of the room.

2. What about the B&W's? Are they going to be dramatically undersized for the room?

Since these pieces were bought to achieve a certain balance, I'm concerned about just upsizing the sub and dwarfing the CDM NT 1's.

3. Would a DD-15 be overkill with the CDM NT 1's?

As I said, I would love to hear what you think.

Thanks again to all of you for wading through this long post and giving me your thoughts. I love this place!

Mark M.

P.S. The Sony 560D has already died with the infamous "No Disk" message. Total playing time since purchase: 20 hrs. Amazing. I wired in a cheap Samsung DVD that I had (since I needed analog audio outs) and it had a better picture than the Sony. Makes the Hits look a lot better. Once I put in the 3801, I'll put my Rotel in and see what it can really do.

The HGS-10 has been known to "fry" in smaller rooms. Your first priority should be to get a bigger sub. And No, the HGS-15 or DD-15 would not be "overkill."

Mit07,

Thanks for the response. I was only thinking in terms of the CDM NT 1's. I have no doubt the DD-15 is not too much for the room, I was seeing if anyone thought I would be needing to look at new fronts, as well.

Thanks also to theranman for an appreciated PM. Money's a little tight with all that goes with a new house, so I may need to baby the HGS-10 and try to get through for a few months.

Anyone else have any input?

Thanks again,

Mark M.

To bring the cost of the subs in at this point is really absurd. Bigger is better, always. Period, End of story. If you cant afford to pay, buy headphones. This whole discussion is ridiculous AFAIK. You need a subwoofer for the LFE channel. Otherwise do not use a sub. Buy a smooth pair of speakers with a solid low end. Introduction of a sub for critical listening only muddies up the bass.

Hi Guys, I'm shopping for a new sub and am interested in several Velodynes. Some backround..I have a good home theatre set up (tho certainly not a mucho buck one!) in a medium size room. I'm also on a limited budget (especially after going HDTV this year). Following some research I've seen both the VRP-1000 and the CHT-12 going for appox the same price. Looks like the CHT-12 is an older model and more powerful but perhaps the VRP 1000 has advantages over it being a newer model. Feedback would be greatly appreciated!!!

I have the CHT 12 and I can recommend it. I use it for music as well as HT.
For my romm, the CHT 12 is overkill, but having the extra capacity is nice. It never sounds boomy, even though I have it placed in the corner of my room. It isn't pretty, but I have it hidden by giant Boston fern. ;-) I am very happy with it. It's a great all-rounder at a reasonable price.

If you can get one at a good price, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend this sub.

RS

DD Series

For what it is worth...Be sure to SAVE your settings after you make a volume adjustment (if you keep it set at the same point.)

I just had an experience where we had a power failure the day before we used the theater for a movie. OH MY was that THX intro crushing to us. Everything shuttered and that is not a good thing. I could not think what went wrong and looked at the Z9 and all the settings were the same. Then I looked at the sub (had to hook up a monitor.). It had the default volume at 25. When I did the setup, it was at 9 when I was done. Thus BAM, blown away.

So...After you make your volume change you care to keep...Go into setup mode and SAVE! :)

Why should I buy the Signature 1812 vs. buying a DD-12 and D-18. The latter is half the price. Is it worth the extra money for 1812?

Also, I now have a Paradigm Servo-15 which sounds great but lacks the loudness and punch that I am looking for. If I were to just get either DD-15 or DD-18, what would be the difference. I am just affraid of getting the DD-18 and loosing some of the mid bass and snap. What do ya'll think?

I just got back from Circuit City where I listened to a Velodyne VRP-1200. This is going to be my birthday present to myself and will be my first SWTDS (subwoofer that doesn’t suck) and my first Velodyne. And wow, it really doesn’t suck. The demo started off on the wrong foot but improved dramatically when the power cord for the sub was actually plugged into the wall (I guess the guy thought it was propane powered). Happy birthday to me.

Originally posted by DAlba
Why should I buy the Signature 1812 vs. buying a DD-12 and D-18. The latter is half the price. Is it worth the extra money for 1812?

Also, I now have a Paradigm Servo-15 which sounds great but lacks the loudness and punch that I am looking for. If I were to just get either DD-15 or DD-18, what would be the difference. I am just affraid of getting the DD-18 and loosing some of the mid bass and snap. What do ya'll think?

Hi,
Regarding the 1812, there is much more to the product than just a DD-12 "stacked" on top of a DD-18. The 1812 cones are a Kevlar composite material and are the lightest and strongest (and costliest) available. The 12 and 18 computers talk to each other, enabling the 18 to handle from infrasonic up to about 50 Hz, and the 12 to handle from there up to the low pass crossover point. The crossover point between the drivers moves dynamically as the low pass crossover moves, and the phase between the units is managed so the two drivers never cancel (a big problem, we found out). The result is a truly awesome product - we test a lot of woofers here and the 1812 really is the best sub we've ever made, bar none.

If that isn't enough, each one is signed by the designer - Dave Hall! ;)

Regarding the servo-15, we haven't tested them side by side. However, the DD-15 and DD-18 have 1/4" more travel than their HGS predecessors (totaling 1 1/4" linear, 1 3/4" peak), and play about 4.5 dB louder and just as cleanly. I suspect the DDs will more than satisfy.

Regarding the 15 versus the 18, you need not worry about the 18 being "slow" or otherwise unfit for duty - in fact it is the most efficient product we make so believe it or not the amp actually works a bit less hard to drive the 18 than the 15. The overriding factor here isn't driver weight (and the related idea that the amp can't move the cone back and forth fast enough) - it's more about compressing the air in the sealed box. The 18 has a bigger box relative to its driver size and thus has less work to do compressing the air. Both products have 1250 watt RMS amps so having the horsepower to motivate the driver is NOT a problem. Either product will provide, in our humble opinion, the most dynamic and accurate bass reproduction available for the price.

Hope this helps,
Bruce

Originally posted by Holliday
I just got back from Circuit City where I listened to a Velodyne VRP-1200. This is going to be my birthday present to myself and will be my first SWTDS (subwoofer that doesn’t suck) and my first Velodyne. And wow, it really doesn’t suck. The demo started off on the wrong foot but improved dramatically when the power cord for the sub was actually plugged into the wall (I guess the guy thought it was propane powered). Happy birthday to me.

LOL! Actually, we were thinking of fuel cells.... :)

Enjoy,
Bruce

Bruce,
How is the programming for a firmware update that will Auto-EQ coming?
Also, what about the discrete codes for our remotes?

PS The DD18 is still making me grin well after year one.
Thanks...

Thanks Bruce, that was a great reply. Do you have any test as far as the maximum db achieved with these two subs?

The 1812 is very tempting but I don't know if I can justify the price considering my current speakers only cost $4k.

Originally posted by cajunlab
Bruce,
How is the programming for a firmware update that will Auto-EQ coming?
Also, what about the discrete codes for our remotes?

PS The DD18 is still making me grin well after year one.
Thanks...

Hi Cajun,
How are you doing?

The auto eq feature is in internal testing now, along with some other new features. We expect to run a beta this fall and release it this January or so. The new release will be available and work fine on all current DD units. The discreet codes should be out before that - they are already coded and we are in the process of publishing our codes.

Bruce

Originally posted by DAlba
Thanks Bruce, that was a great reply. Do you have any test as far as the maximum db achieved with these two subs?

The 1812 is very tempting but I don't know if I can justify the price considering my current speakers only cost $4k.

To use technical terms, it plays "wicked loud" and "wicked clean." :D

Seriously, not to cop out, but there are many ways to test max dB. Among others, the main question is "at what distortion level?" I've always felt 10% is too much, as we design for under 1% at most listening levels. The more distortion, the louder the measurement. That having been said, I will tell you that it blows away any single sub we've ever made. My office sits a fair bit away from the listening room, and I always know when the 1812 is playing - it is truly scary. On transients, there are 6,000 watts available - does that put it in perspective?

At $15,000 retail, the 1812 is a "once in a lifetime" purchase...

Bruce

I own an older VA-907 sub which I have been enjoying very much, a few weeks ago during a storm the power flashed a few times, did not think much of it but then i noticed that my sub would thump whenever the signal to it changed, while watching a DVD when the layer would change i will get a thump or when navigating the menu. when there is a constant signal it seems to work just fine. Turning the receiver on and off will do the same thing.
do you have any idea what would cause this and is it worth fixing?
I have been thinking of upgrading to a DLS 3750 but would still like to keep this sub around for a smaller system if it could be fixed for a reasonable amount of money.

thanks for your help

Mike

Does anyone have any links to reviews on the 1812?

One of the latest AV mags have an 1812 review. It's pitted against the Genelec (4x12"). The Genelec did slightly better I think but both put out prodigious bass. The tests were done down to 16 Hz. I wish I had specific numbers but all I can remember is the 20Hz point - Genelec was 105 db and DD1812 was 103 db. At 16 Hz, though the Vel beat the Genelec. Can't remember distortion levels.

Just found the article:
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=5&article_id=666

Hi there... I have an HGS15, that I've been pretty happy with - deep and huge amount of bass when needed - however, also sometimes boomy and not homogeneous across the frequency range. So what would be more natural than upgrade it to a DD-15? However, due to placement constraints, the DD-12 would fit much nicer. So now the question is, will I miss much "Kick" - having been accustomed to the HGS15??? Or - would it be an option to place the HGS somewhere in the back - put the DD-12 in the front - and have the digital equalizer adjust the frequency range FOR BOTH the HGS15 and DD12??

Anybody tried this setup?

Any other ideas or comments on how to handle the “HGS-15” upgrade? Could I upgrade the amplifier section to the new digital one?

Hi,
I would advise trying the DD-12. With the additional 1/4" inch travel, it may have the kick of your HGS-15. That would primarily depend on the room. You could always use the HGS-15 in tandem with the DD-12. You would equalize the DD-12 while the HGS-15 is playing. If the DD-12 proves to be enough, you could always sell the HGS -15 which is still a fine Velodyne servo subwoofer.
Thanks,
Curt

Question about difference between DD-12 and DD-15.

I am very intereasted in purchasing one of these subwoofers; however, I had a question to ask about both of these. It appears that the DD-12 is not magnetically shielded and that the DD-15 is magnetically shielded. Is this correct? I live in a small apartment and the DD-12 would fit the bill for me versus the DD-15. I know that because the DD-12 is not magnetically shielded this will restrict placement options (not able to place the subwoofer next to the TV). Also, if the DD-12 is not magnetically shielded, what is a safe distance to place it away from the TV.

Hi David,
Because of size constraints, the DD-10 and 12 are not video shielded. While there is no guarantee, usually two to three feet away from the TV is adequate.
Thanks,
Curt

Curt

Thanks for the quick reply. I was afraid of that. I quess I would have to place this sub in a corner or behind one of my main speakers. That is the only that I can find that I really dislike about this sub. I usually like to place
my sub next to my TV (My listening room is very small).

Dave

I have the 15" Velodyne subwoofer. I also just purchased a Denon receiver with the autosetup function which uses a microphone to test the Subwoofer and speakers and sets their levels appropriately.
What volume level should I set my subwoofer at when i perform the test? Denon does not have any mention of this in its manual.
Someone had told me to turn the subwoofer volume control so that when the test is done, the receiver reads 0db (so that the receiver does not either attenuate or strengthen the signal to the subwoofer. Does this seem right?
Also, how can I get more bass at lower receiver volume levels?
Thanks.
Dave

If your main speakers have a sensitivity rating of about 90db, then I would put the Velodyne subwoofer volume at about 10 o'clock (to the left of half way). The Denon subwoofer volume does not need to be at 0db. It may very well be higher than that. I would also use a "Y" splitter into both inputs on the sub.
Thanks,
Curt

Curt,
Would I set it to 10 o'clock and then run the autosetup on the receiver? When I did that, the level that the receiver set for the subwoofer was about -5.5db. Does that seem about right? Doesn't that mean that the receiver is attenuating the subwoofer signal? I do have a Y splitter on the sub.

Depending on the room -5.5db could be right. One of the problems with auto-eq's is; they don't compensate for the rapid drop off with human hearing at low frequencies. If they are eq'ing for flat response, it may sound bass shy. So use your ears. If at -5.5db, it sounds correct to you then that's fine. If the bass sounds too limited, then bring up the output of the bass channel in the Denon. In demos we used to do at shows, we would usually run the bass channel 5 to 10db higher than the other channels to sound balanced. Go with what sounds right.
Curt

So, I should leave the volume control on the subwoofer at the 10 o'clock position and adjust the bass on the receiver.
Is there any time I would turn the volume up directly on the sub?

Yes, leave the Velodyne at about 10 o'clock for set up, then you can move it up or down small amounts when necessary. Or you can use the volume control in the Denon (bass channel) all the time.
Curt

Hi, Curt. Sorry for all the questions, but I'm confused and want to do this right. My main issue I have is relatively poor bass at lower volumes on the receiver.
I ran the autosetup with the Velodyne volume at 10 o'clock.
I got 12 db for each of the front and center speakers.
The sub was -5.5.
Now you had said to boost it to 5-10 over the others, so that would mean going from-5 to +20?
How do I get better bass at low volumes? I love the sub for movies, etc.

Hi Dave,
A lot of auto eq's have a problem doing the bass section correctly. I was suggesting you might want to bring the bass up some after doing the eq, as totally flat response often sounds bass shy. I would use my ears to get it right and not be concerned what number that relates to on the Denon bass channel. If you'd like, feel free to call me tomorrow at (480) 595-7141 and we can discuss this farther.
Curt

Is it true that the DD 1812 requires a 20-ampere AC circuit with a 20-amp socket to plug it in? I didn't see this listed on thier website but the review from the above link suggests this.

I don't know if I have this. It doesn't sound very common so I doubt it.

Originally posted by dave42
Hi, Curt. Sorry for all the questions, but I'm confused and want to do this right. My main issue I have is relatively poor bass at lower volumes on the receiver.
I ran the autosetup with the Velodyne volume at 10 o'clock.
I got 12 db for each of the front and center speakers.
The sub was -5.5.
Now you had said to boost it to 5-10 over the others, so that would mean going from-5 to +20?
How do I get better bass at low volumes? I love the sub for movies, etc.

The ear does not respond to low frequency as uniformly as it responds to mid and high frequencies. As the level decreases uniformly accross the frequency spectrum the ear percieves a diminished low end response. This is the reason for the Eq. button or switch on many preamplifier sections. On cheap systems it raises both the low and high frequencies relative to the mid frequencies as the volume level control is decreased. Better units only boost the low frequencies. These are supposed to compensate for the ear's diminishd bass response at lower levels. By boosting the Sub's low frequency, you can adjust it to whatever is pleasing to you at the levels you normally listen. This works well. My general rule of thumb is that I do not want to "hear" the subwoofer. I only want to feel its impact. My own F1880R Velodyne is set at a level that produces flat frequency response with a Radio Shack sound level meter using "C" weighting. I live in the country and in a large rancher so I tend to play my system in the range od 65dB-80dB for louder passages. My HF Rolloff is set at 80Hz. I use the sub mostly as the LFE channel for DD and DTS. Using it with my VMPS STIII's is not necessary or desireable when listening to music. When listening to music, I prefer 2 speakers playing 2 channels--Less coloration and estremely accurate.

Velodyne Auto Offs periodically...
I just hooked up a Velodyne to my Amp and I notice that it periodically auto shuts off and on during the movie.

Questions:
1. Is this normal.
2. If it is normal, when it's of, does that mean there is no signals lower than 200Hz at that time?

Note: I have the "Low Pass Crossover" dial set to 200Hz. I think this means that any signals lower than 200 will be directed to the sub.

Any info would be greatly appreciated. I'm a Newbie.

As posted in your other thread....

To me it sounds like you do not have enough db signal coming out of your processor. I am talking about the SUB OUT level from your receiver/processor. If not enough line out level, the sub will not see the signal and shut off.

Turn up your db on the sub line out and turn down the sub amp to not to be to loud because you just turned up the signal level.

Originally posted by DAlba
Is it true that the DD 1812 requires a 20-ampere AC circuit with a 20-amp socket to plug it in? I didn't see this listed on thier website but the review from the above link suggests this.

I don't know if I have this. It doesn't sound very common so I doubt it.

Hi,
Yes, for maximum performance the 1812 should have a dedicated 20amp circuit. There are two 1250 watt amplifiers to feed. Many newer homes have some 20 amp circuits while older ones normally had 15 amp circuits.
Often it's not difficult for an electrician to rewire a 15 to 20.
Thanks,
Curt

Of course, it will be a cold day in July before you get anywhere near 20 Amps. Realistically you will never draw more than an amp or two for any sustained period of time.

Mars,

I believe the on and off is normal. The LFE signal in Dolby Digital Encoded discs sometimes comes on a few times in a movie. If there is no DD LFE signal there is no reason for the sub to be on. On some movies my sub stays off for much of the movie. Proper setup of the Sub is important though. The level from you preamp should be as high as possible while the input level to the sub should be minimized. Use a sound level meter and Video Essential or AVIA to set the right levels.

Hi,

I was wondering how different the DPS, DLS and DLS-R series were. the actual speaker specs look the same and the power ratings are close. how different is the sound between these series?

thanks

Mike

[QUOTE]Originally posted by curt c
Hi,
Yes, for maximum performance the 1812 should have a dedicated 20amp circuit. There are two 1250 watt amplifiers to feed. Many newer homes have some 20 amp circuits while older ones normally had 15 amp circuits.
Often it's not difficult for an electrician to rewire a 15 to 20.
Thanks,
Curt [/Q

Just wanted to expand on this a little. At power up, two 1250W RMS amps' power capacitors must be charged up, which draws about 19 amps for just a second. After that, they draw very little continuous power, even at full output.

Bruce

Correct me if I am wrong but won't a 15 amp circuit breaker handle the capacitor charge transient easily? My own system powers up a 500 watt ADCOM, your 600 watt internal Amp for the Sub, 2 300 Watt momoblocks, and assorted electronics with a combined power requirement of over 600 watts. Sure it is less than 2 kilowatts but hey guys the lights do not even flicker. I understand why you must rate the sub the way you do and teel folks they need a 20 amp circuit but does performance really get affected on a 15Amp circuit? I do not think so.
My reason for persisting is that these subs are probably incredible but many who do not understand electronics will not buy them for this reason.

Originally posted by MrHifi
Correct me if I am wrong but won't a 15 amp circuit breaker handle the capacitor charge transient easily?

Yes, usually it will. However, it depends on what else is running on the line at the time and what type of breaker you have. We've been fine on 15A circuits here in the factory in some cases, but in others we've needed to go higher.

Originally posted by MrHifi
I understand why you must rate the sub the way you do and tell folks they need a 20 amp circuit but does performance really get affected on a 15Amp circuit? I do not think so.

Correct again Art. We could not call ourselves safety compliant if we rated the product as only needing 15A, because it easily measures 19+ at startup. If it survives the startup without kicking the breaker, it would run well on under 10 amps or even less.


Originally posted by MrHifi
My reason for persisting is that these subs are probably incredible but many who do not understand electronics will not buy them for this reason.

I'd like to think that, but I also suspect the price plays a small role! :p
More seriously, most of these units will be custom installed into big money systems. The installers generally have no issues with the 20A wiring.

Hope this helps,
Bruce

Originally posted by typ44q
Hi,

I was wondering how different the DPS, DLS and DLS-R series were. the actual speaker specs look the same and the power ratings are close. how different is the sound between these series?

thanks

Mike

Hi Mike,
Your assessment is correct: the DPS-10 and DPS-12 are the same amp and speaker as the DLS-3750R and DLS-4000R and thus share the same specs. Both lines are DSP-controlled, slot loaded, and have presets for movies, pop/rock, jazz/classical, and games. So, the performance should be virtually identical between these particular models. However, the cabinet styling is different and the controls are on the front panel for the DPS and by remote control for the DLS. There is also a DLS-3500R (8"), and a DLS-5000R (15") - you won't find these cone sizes in the DPS series.

The DLS series (without the R) is discontinued. If you do find it it will be on closeout. Same is true for the CHT series (although the DLS-R line will take on the name CHT-R for export).

Hope this helps,
Bruce

Just got a new DD18 and am in process of connecting it to system. Is there a distance limitation to the audio cables used for the EQ feature? I'd like to install EQ setup cables permanently and the distance around the perimeter of room will be over 60 ft. I have high quality audio cables from Blue Jeans Cable and wall plate jacks installed just for the purpose of connecting in PC sound card outputs & inputs and other line levels sources. Patch cables would be used from wall plates to receiver front panel inputs. My best estimate of total distance will be 75 ft.

Will cable losses over that distance significantly effect the volume matching and EQ functions?

Thanks
ss9001

Originally posted by ss9001
Just got a new DD18 and am in process of connecting it to system. Is there a distance limitation to the audio cables used for the EQ feature? I'd like to install EQ setup cables permanently and the distance around the perimeter of room will be over 60 ft. I have high quality audio cables from Blue Jeans Cable and wall plate jacks installed just for the purpose of connecting in PC sound card outputs & inputs and other line levels sources. Patch cables would be used from wall plates to receiver front panel inputs. My best estimate of total distance will be 75 ft.

Will cable losses over that distance significantly effect the volume matching and EQ functions?

Thanks
ss9001

Hi ss,
You're fine. There will be no degradation of signal. Good luck with the setup!

Bruce

Juboy...What you posted, now removed, was marketing for Velodyne and not support. Please do not let this contiune. I know you work with Uncle Eric and he is a Velodye dealer. Marketing like that is not needed on the site.

Thank you.

Can someone point me to anywhere one can purchase the remote for the HGS-X line on-line? I can't find it, only the references in the docs and ads that the optional remote exits. Just trying to get a ballpark idea of it's cost for budgeting.

Thanks,
Scott

Check Audiogon.com

Scott,
You may purchase the remote direct from Velodyne. Price is $60. Call (408) 465-2851 when you're ready to order.
Thanks,
Curt

Hi Curt,

Will the DLS-R models be available in 240volts countries like Singapore? The DD models are a little over my budget. Seems like your dealer here only carries the DD models?

Thanks
Oliver

Curt & or Bruce,

I have owned a DD-18 since March (Software version 1.2) and absolutely love it.

Until tonight, I considered it bullet proof.

I run a B&K AVR 317 Receiver all speakers crossed over at 80hz. The sub output going from the receiver to the DD-18 via a Cobalt sub woofer cable with a Cobalt Y-splitter.

I was watching a new release on DVD called The Girl Next Door. (Chapter 13 50:51 - 51:07)

During this passage in the film there is loud electronic background music with prominent drums and bass. The bass line has plenty of attack.

My receiver volume was set to -15.

My DD-18 volume was set to 31

I heard the woofer "pop" once or twice during this passage.

This alarms me because I have never been able to overload my DD-18.

I generally keep my sub at a 35 to 40 volume and my receiver at -15 or -20.

I commonly watch movies like Saving Private Ryan, Episode II, 5th Element, You name it. No problems. In fact....my DD-18 typically sounds great.

I tried turning the sub down. Below 30 no "pop" problems. Above 30 more of the same during that passage.

There were other low bass sound effects later in the movie that sounded fine. It was just this specific passage.

Could this issue be program specific? This seems strange because if it was program specific, I should hear the "pop" when I turn the sub down.

On the other hand, I feel like my sub would sound bad all the time on all program material if there was a real problem.

Please advise ASAP as I am very concerned.

Talk about being hyper.... Take a Valium and relax.

"Please advise ASAP as I am very concerned." [/B][/QUOTE] "

Hi,
I have not seen "The Girl next Door" so I'm not sure if there's a problem with the DVD, or not.
Try this; turn up the volume in the B&K (sub out) to -5 or even 0 and then back off on the Velodyne's volume accordingly and see if it plays that passage without the pop. I'm currently running my DD-12's volume at 12 in a fairly small room and have never had an issue with any source. A -15 is quite low for the subwoofer channel and that may be an issue.
Let me know if this cures the problem.
Thanks,
Curt

Hello Curt and members

I would like to know if you are running two subs in this case a f1500 and a soon to be purchased dd18. The processor has stereo sub outs (citation 5.0). How does one determine which of the two will be the dominant one or how can one maximise the better sub dd18 to get the most of it. But still running the f1500 to smooth out freq. or just fill in the gaps in the room.?

Any advice appreciated. L,C,R, (large) LS,LB,RS,RB (small)

Thanks

Mr. Curt C

My HGS-15 has been experiencing ‘volume creep’ since it was new. I would have to reset the level every month. For 75dB the volume control could never be turned up over 1 and the Lexicon processor sub gain was set at -10dB (it’s lowest). Then the unit started intermittent static with an intermittent 20 Hz note. After switching it off, I disconnected all inputs to the sub to make sure there was no ground loop. When I switched the unit back on, it immediately went to full volume and the amp was clipping. It sounded like a machine gun going off in the room. Things in the kitchen fell off the wall.

My son-in-law also has a Velodyne and last year his did the same thing. The amp had to be replaced.

What’s up?

Ronald

Curt,

Thanks for the quick reply.

The Sub Output was and is currently set to -5 db on the B&K.

The receiver volume was -15 at the time of the pop.

The pop occurred when the DD-18 volume was 30 or higher not -30. Sorry for the type-o in the last e-mail.

My listening room is about 3,000 cubic feet however the connecting rooms bring the total to about 6,400 cubic feet.

As the movie was a rental, I will try and listen to other bass heavy CDs and DVDs and report back. I figure if there is a problem with the sub, it would be evident on other material.

Any further advice would be appreciated.

I will keep you posted.

Does anyone have a pronto file (ccf or pcf) with working DD series IR codes? I am having a heck of a time getting the pronto to learn the codes from the DD remote correctly.

Went to remotecentral and no luck there...

Curt, does Velodyne by chance have a .ccf file that they distribute to users the way some vendors do?

Thanks
John

"Any further advice would be appreciated."

Hi Again,
I would set the B&K subout level to +5 and back off on the DD volume. You do indeed have a very large area counting the open space.
Curt

"Curt, does Velodyne by chance have a .ccf file that they distribute to users the way some vendors do?"

Hi,
We're currently looking into it, and should have an answer soon.
Curt

[QUOTE]Originally posted by benthx
[B]Hello Curt and members

"I would like to know if you are running two subs in this case a f1500 and a soon to be purchased dd18. The processor has stereo sub outs (citation 5.0). How does one determine which of the two will be the dominant one or how can one maximise the better sub dd18 to get the most of it. But still running the f1500 to smooth out freq. or just fill in the gaps in the room.?

Any advice appreciated. L,C,R, (large) LS,LB,RS,RB (small)"

Hi,
I would advise trying the DD-18 alone. I would also suggest calling all of your speakers "small" unless they have some really large woofers in them. Multiple drivers playing the same frequency can often be a real problem. If you choose to use both subwoofers, the DD-18 is the dominant unit. The F-1500 could be hooked up to your processor via a "Y" splitter or fed from the DD-18. You would have the F-1500 playing while you EQ'd the DD-18. The two subs are of different vintage and size so you would need to try and see if you could achieve a good blend or fill. Two or more subs (usually the same model) can be used to increase volume and go a bit deeper but you must make sure they are working in concert with one another and not nulling each other. There's no magic answer, it's usually the result of trial and error. Feel free to call me direct at; (480) 595-7141 if you'd like to discuss this more.
Thanks,
Curt

Curt,

I will try your suggestions and let you know.

Just to clarify....

If I change my Receiver Sub Output From - 5db to +5db, should I change my DD-18 from 35 to 25?

Do the changes need to have a relationship?

Given my large space, do you have any advice regarding max listening volume of the receiver and or sub? Do I have to worry about overdriving the DD-18 given my set-up?

(FYI 150wpc * 7. NHT 2.5i towers for front and sides NHT 1.5 book shelfs for rears. NHT AC1 center channel. All bass under 80Hz going to the DD-18)

Before I got your reply, I listened to several bass heavy passages via CD loudly to see if the sub would duplicate the pop. My ears gave up way before I could achieve any negative effect. The bass did tend to get a bit muddier (Of course I was 12 inches from the sub)

Given what you know so far, should I presume that the previous pops during "The Girl Next Door" did not damage the DD-18?

Hi,
Increase the output on the B&K as I suggested. Use your ear to determine how much to back off on the Velodyne. The changes do not have to be related numerically. I'm just having you provide more input to the DD-18 so the Sub isn't working as hard. This is the best way to maximize the DD's output. Under these conditions is the "pop" still there?
It is unlikely any damage has been done to the DD-18.
Curt

Originally posted by curt c
"Curt, does Velodyne by chance have a .ccf file that they distribute to users the way some vendors do?"

Hi,
We're currently looking into it, and should have an answer soon.
Curt

Great. Looking forward to it. Will this project include discreet on/off IR codes as well?

John

John,
Yes it will.
Curt

Folks at Velodyne,

Last night when I turned on my FSR-15, I got the popping sound, and no output, that I experienced last month. I posted on this thread at the time, and received a reply from D. Saint.

I tried unplugging the Sub for a while, then tried turning it on again. At one point, the sub just continued to make popping sounds every few seconds. At that point I unplugged it again and tried it about a half hour later. It then worked fine. I decided to check our supply voltage, and found that we were at 114 volts. I don't know if the voltage was lower when I was actually experiencing the problem. This morning, our voltage was at 118.

Could low voltage be the cause of my problem? Would you suggest I try a UPS for the Sub, and if so how many VA? Or is my FSR-15 in need of servicing? How would you suggest I proceed? Thanks.

HJW,

The other day I was experiencing a popping sound on my sub too. It turns out it did not have anything to do with my sub.

I have two Velodyne subs, a VA-1210 I purchased in 1997, and a Series 2 HGS-18 I purchased last year. Both have worked flawlessly until the other night when I heard a popping sound from my VA-1210. I have it positioned near my seating position with an end table nearby.

It turns out I had my cell phone on the end table near that sub and whenever the phone would communicate with my service there would be a random popping sound from my sub. I had tried different outputs from my pre/pro, plugging my sub into my voltage stabilizer using an extension cord. All to no avail. My cell phone is from Nextel with the paging, push to talk, and phone all in one. When ever I put it near speakers, popping sounds occur, but I didn’t think about that laying it on my end table.

Not saying that this is your problem, but something to think about. I was ready to post on this forum, buy parts for it, or even have it shipped to Velodyne for repair.

Good Luck,

Dan

hi. i just recently bought the DD-12 and would like to confirm that in order to bypass the internal crossover, the crossover needs to be set to 199Hz? there is no "off" setting? in this scenario, is the crossover completely off and eliminate multiple crossovers with a surround processor?
also looking forward to a .ccf. maybe .mxd as well (MX-700)?

The crossover bypass is 199. At this setting, it will have no effect on lower crossover points. In a future software update we will provide a crossover bypass position.
Thanks,
Curt

I've just purchased a Velodyne DD15 and installed it with cables "daisy chaining" with my original HGS 15.

How necessary is it that I measure and set the individual sub volume levels?

If it is necessary how do I generate a tone and measure the volume output from the two subs separately?

Darryl

Hi,
Ideally you would want the level of the two subs to be about the same at listening position. I do this by ear, listening to just one sub and then the other. When EQing you would have both subs and your two mains playing. Try to get a nice balance both in level and frequency response. Obviously you can only EQ the DD, but you do need both subs playing while EQing. If both subs are on the front wall or front corners this is usually fairly easy, in other locations it may take more time to get it right. If you have the option, experiment with location of the subs to get the flattest response before starting the EQ.
Curt

Thanks Curt

A few questions please:

How do I get one sub playing at a time with the daisy chain wiring?

Will the second sub still work when the primary sub is switched off?

As I don't really trust my hearing if I I'm able to switch one of then off can I not use a meter?

Why keep the mains on?

Darryl

Darryl,
1)You could use the "mute" button on the DD. There is also a "mute" on your HGS remote.
2)Yes, the HGS will work with the DD turned off.
3)Yes, a SPL meter is fine.
4)When setting sub levels (for balance) you would not need your mains on.
When you start the EQ process, you want the mains playing to achieve a nice integration between the sub and mains.
On your installation raising the volume on the DD will not raise the volume of the HGS. Once setup is complete, you might want to raise or lower subwoofer level (both units) by utilizing the subwoofer volume control in your receiver or processor. That would increase or decrease both units together.
Curt

Excellent, detailed and wonderfully comprehensive reply Curt.
Outstanding!!

Thank you very much.

Regards

Darryl

Curt,

How am I going to generate a signal to the Mains at the same time as the same signal to the Velodynes?

Darryl

I have a DD18 that do use in my HT system.

For setting the delay of the speakers, will be very useful known if the DSP used in the DD series add a fixed delay or not .

Thanks and regards
Marco

Dan Schulze,

Interesting situation you had there. I can't think of any wireless apparatus in my situation though. I wish that my problem was caused by something like that.

Folks at Velodyne,

Still waiting for your thoughts about the problem I had the other night with our FSR-15.

Hi everyone, my first post here- long time lurker.


I just purchased a CHT-15 sub online from jr.com.

So I unpacked it, and the box looked like it didn't have any damage. So I used my Monster Sub cable, and ran it to my Y splitter into the input. The problem is that as soon as I plugged it in, it started humming bass. It does this almost at any volume position.


Here's what I have tried to remedy the problem.

I have tried plugging the sub cable directly into both L & R inputs
I have tried to isolate the power cable and the sub cable to make sure they are as far away from each other as they can be.
I have tried to change all the settings from both the receiver and sub.


So have a received a defective SUB, cable, or am I just doing something wrong?

Thanks in advance for any help!

:confused:

The Velodyne recommendation is to place a 3 to 2 adapter between the 3 prong power plug and wall receptacle. That will lift the ground and may help. Mine did the same thing.

Originally posted by MrHifi
The Velodyne recommendation is to place a 3 to 2 adapter between the 3 prong power plug and wall receptacle. That will lift the ground and may help. Mine did the same thing.

I am not too sure what this 3 to 2 adapter is? Can you explain? I just got done talking with Curt in support on the phone, and he thinks the amp may be damaged. I did have it shipped.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by darrylp
[B]Curt,

"How am I going to generate a signal to the Mains at the same time as the same signal to the Velodynes?"

Darryl,
You run the EQ output jacks from the DD sub into a vacant set of input jacks on your receiver. When you designate that input you will hear the tone through your speakers and subwoofers. The sub-out jack of your receiver is connected to the input on the DD. The signal generator is not hard wired to the subs, it is looped through your system. You also run the video out jack into your TV, either directly or through a switcher in your receiver. This hook up is covered in the manual and can be temporary or left in place.
Thanks,
Curt

Originally posted by microfast
I have a DD18 that do use in my HT system.

For setting the delay of the speakers, will be very useful known if the DSP used in the DD series add a fixed delay or not .

Thanks and regards
Marco

Hi Marco,
No it does not.
Curt

hjw,

Not exactly sure what is leading to the strange popping sounds you're experiencing, but I suggest you consider contacting our service department in order to send your amplifier for our technicians to have a look at.

Thank you

D.Saint

D. Saint,

Thank you for the reply. Thats what I was afraid of. What I was hoping to hear is "if your supply voltage were to fall below 112 volts, that is exactly what you would experience". Wishful thinking I guess.

I'll plan on giving your service department a call.

Thanks Again,

Henry

Hi Curt,

I am looking for a sub to replace or augment my current REL sub. Main duties of the sub would be for HT but I will not rule out using it for stereo if it sonds better then my REL.

My room is 17'x15'x8' about 2400 cubic feet. What can I expect from the above 2 subs? I found a dealer who has both in stocks at about the same price. Which actually have the better specs/SPL? What SPL can I expect in my room at 20hz, 25hz and 31hz in my room?

For the 6bd/octave crossover is it time/phase aligned? I have a time/phase coherent speaker and do not want to introduct a crossover which would destroy it's time/phase coherancy.

Thanks!
Oliver

Oliver,

The minute you place a radiating surface in a location other than that specified by the manufacturer, you can forget about all that time/phase coherence BS. In fact you can probably forget it to start with. All the phase-coherent BS was a marketing gimmick that the Dalquist folks came up with in the '70's.

Originally posted by MrHifi
Oliver,

The minute you place a radiating surface in a location other than that specified by the manufacturer, you can forget about all that tome/phase coherence BS. In fact you can probably forget it to start with. All the phase-coherent BS was a marketing gimmick that the Dalquist folks came up with in the '70's.


Now Mr Hifi, I do not want to get into any debate on Time/Phase coherence. What I can say is that Velodyne high pass is a 1st order 6/db per octave design which I guess should mean that it is time/phase coherent. Their design for high pass has been like this for many many years and that decision must be made for some reason. If not they would have used 12db or 24db/octave cutover right?

Oliver

The 6db first order filter is cheap, simple and generates less ripple. I go with cheap as the reason they chose 6dB along with the fact that there is no reason to use a 12dB or greater filter. The "time alignment" issue is still a marketing issue. I have never heard Velodyne spouting any BS about "time alignment" or "phase coherence", they know better. Velodyne subs mean quality, they provide superb, low distortion, super low frequency response in a frequency range where most speakers peter out or produce terrible distortion. It's that simple. Their servo accelerometer equipped systems represent a quantum leap in low frequency audio. I've been playing with HiFi since the mid 50's and I can honestly say that I like what comes out of my 1800R better than any Klipschorn, Electrovoice or Dalquist. I use VMPS STIII's and still use the 1800R to cover the lowest octaves and as the LFE channel.

Originally posted by oliverlim
Hi Curt,

I am looking for a sub to replace or augment my current REL sub. Main duties of the sub would be for HT but I will not rule out using it for stereo if it sonds better then my REL.

My room is 17'x15'x8' about 2400 cubic feet. What can I expect from the above 2 subs? I found a dealer who has both in stocks at about the same price. Which actually have the better specs/SPL? What SPL can I expect in my room at 20hz, 25hz and 31hz in my room?

For the 6bd/octave crossover is it time/phase aligned? I have a time/phase coherent speaker and do not want to introduct a crossover which would destroy it's time/phase coherancy.

Thanks!
Oliver

Hi Oliver,
Between the two choices you offer (FSR-15 and SPL-1000II) and the frequencies you asked about, the FSR-15 would have an advantage. It would take a SPL-1200II to be in the same ballpark as the FSR-15. When reproducing low frequencies (20-30hz) at high output a larger driver has a big advantage.
Any SPL numbers I could give you would be a guess and I try to avoid that. If your room does not open into other rooms, either will play quite loud. If there are openings into other rooms, you probably need a different unit. Our website (www.velodyne.com) has room size/price recommendations. If your dealer is agreeable, take the units home and see which you prefer.
Our high pass filter is 6db (1st order) which by design has less phase shift. I too have been doing audio for over fifty years and agree with Art regarding this subject. Keep an open, but somewhat skeptical mind about most audio claims. The key is use your ears and a little objective testing can help too.
I normally suggest using your processors crossover and bypassing the Velodyne's. Of course if you prefer, use the Velodyne's. You might try both methods and see which sounds better to you.
Hope this helps,
Curt

Curt/MrHIFI,

I do keep a open mind about lots of things regarding Hifi including Cables. There's lots of BS out there for sure. For me, I questioned the Time/Phase coherent speakers as well, but after hearing Van/Thiel/Meadow, I just like the way they sound. Can't explain it in words. So went with a Meadowlark when one came up at a good price. Now I tried inserting a crossover from the REL or my processor and did not like the result. I would choose the non-crossover non sub anytime over a crossover inserted. My REL is rather old and My Rotel Processor may not be top class so that could contribute to me not liking the result.

I was hoping to get the SPLII 1200 but the dealer here in Singapore told me it would take 2 months as he did not have stocks at the moment. Thats too long. If what you are telling me is that the FSR-15 and SPL II 1200 would both play as loud in the same room, I would prefer the SPL due to size and newness. Worried about the surrounds of the FSR-15 as it is like 5 years old right?

Could you PM me about your guesses on SPL in my room? Will check with the dealer again on Monday to see if a home trial is possible.

Regards
Oliver


Originally posted by curt c
Hi Oliver,
Between the two choices you offer (FSR-15 and SPL-1000II) and the frequencies you asked about, the FSR-15 would have an advantage. It would take a SPL-1200II to be in the same ballpark as the FSR-15. When reproducing low frequencies (20-30hz) at high output a larger driver has a big advantage.
Any SPL numbers I could give you would be a guess and I try to avoid that. If your room does not open into other rooms, either will play quite loud. If there are openings into other rooms, you probably need a different unit. Our website (www.velodyne.com) has room size/price recommendations. If your dealer is agreeable, take the units home and see which you prefer.
Our high pass filter is 6db (1st order) which by design has less phase shift. I too have been doing audio for over fifty years and agree with Art regarding this subject. Keep an open, but somewhat skeptical mind about most audio claims. The key is use your ears and a little objective testing can help too.
I normally suggest using your processors crossover and bypassing the Velodyne's. Of course if you prefer, use the Velodyne's. You might try both methods and see which sounds better to you.
Hope this helps,
Curt

Why not 15"? Why stopped at 12"? I love this sub, but I wish there is a 15 or 18" version like the DD series. Is there some physical limitations?

Just curious.

dewey

Oliver,

This subwoofer selection issue is really quite simple and from my point of view you are making to big a deal out of it. When it comes to subwoofers, bigger is better. Servo controlled subwoofers generate higher SPL's at lower levels of distortion. Velodyne subs have servos. If you can afford it, buy the biggest Velodyne subwoofer you can afford. I would avoid all the gimmicks such as equalizers and filters. What you want is controlled linear piston performance at low frequencies. I also believe that one subwoofer in a soundfield will provide a less muddy bass than multiple subs. If it helps, my room is 60ft. long, 17 feet wide and 8 feet high. It opens onto other areas at 4 locations. I listen along the narrow dimension, i.e. my chair is 13 feet from the front of my main speakers. The subwoofer is in a corner, almost 15 ft. from the nearest speaker. I used the phase switch on the rear of the FS1800R to maximize a the room's measured SPL with a 30Hz tone fed to both the sub and the main and surround speakers all four of which are very large speakers containing multiple low frequency drivers. When you feed a .250mv signal to the line level input of the preamp, it knocks you out of the room and is deafening. Do not worry about not being able to generate enough low frequency energy. My sub often becomes obtrusive when the moviemakers go overboard with explosions.

Need Sub suggestion.
I have a room size of 17'x13'x8. I want to put two subs which has both balanced and RCA input. What would your suggestion be?

Originally posted by mygiantcircle
Why not 15"? Why stopped at 12"? I love this sub, but I wish there is a 15 or 18" version like the DD series. Is there some physical limitations?

Just curious.

dewey

Hi Dewey,
We make the HGS-15X. If we were to manufacture a SPL-1500, the price would be close to the same and since the HGS has servo, there wouldn't be much demand for a non-servo unit near the same price and size. Make sense?
Thanks,
Curt

Originally posted by Xavier
Need Sub suggestion.
I have a room size of 17'x13'x8. I want to put two subs which has both balanced and RCA input. What would your suggestion be?

Hi,
The only models we make with both balanced and unbalanced inputs are the HGS-15X and all of the DD series. A pair of DD-10's or DD-12's would be great for your room size.
Curt

Can you please tell me exactly how you recommend I wire together and then equalize my new DD 15 and old HGS 15 subs?

My preamp only has one LFE output.

Thanks

Darryl

There is a pass-thru RCA connection on the DD15,18. Connect the DD to the preamp LFE output, then the HGS to the DD. Then you will hear both and the EQ will be for both outputs.

The pass-thru connection is decribed in the instructions. ;)

ss9001

Originally posted by darrylp
Can you please tell me exactly how you recommend I wire together and then equalize my new DD 15 and old HGS 15 subs?

My preamp only has one LFE output.

Thanks

Darryl

Hi,
I sent you a PM.
Curt

-first post

I have, or had, a pair of S-1200's cira 1991, one has a failed accelerometer and Velodyne cannot repair or supply these any more.

So time for yet another -once in a life time- Velodyne investment.

I plan on replacing with a pair of DD-15's in stereo mod.

Why: I originally had one S-1200. Where ever it was located it would cause cancellation problems. So I got another S-1200 and cancellation problems gone. And, another myth blown away. Perhaps you cannot tell where low frequencies come from, but they do form a spound stage or sound space when in stereo. I aligned the S-1200's with my Magnegpan IIIa's. Not all music will demonstrate low frequency content with stereo separation, but it is there. Two subs in stereo, properly placed to be phase aligned, do things than a single sub cannot.

The DD series does have phase correction. But that is only sufficient for continuous sine wave content perhaps. For a drum hit, the the -transient- wave front has to be aligned. If the sub is back behind your main speakers, phase correction cannot help unless you have the worm hole 2000 time travel wave form option. So placing subs behind your drivers can be a problem.

So my subs will be aligned up with my main speakers. And with this alignment there will be no significant per-channel phase cancelation problems.

If music has base content that is out of phase across the left and right channels, then two subs in stereo mod will have cancellation. But feeding those out of phase bass signals to a single sub will cancel in the sub signal processing unit and you still get nothing. Otherwise, if the base is in both channels and in phase, two subs, properly aligned with the main speakers, will not have any cancellation issues at all. If there are phase differences in the L&R base content signals, then you will get a realistic reproduction of the music. It does not make any sense to pretend that low frequency music content is mono or to collapse it to mono. There is stereo on the low frequencies and you can perhaps feel it more than hear it, but it is there.

I have had the S-1200's each drive by the signal that goes to the magnepan bass drivers which is driven by-wired from the outboard x-overs which are beside the aragon 8008 amp. In this case my bass signals have been phase delayed by the x-over. Perhaps if the amp output was deliverd direct to the DD-15s, then there would be some use and need for a phase delay correction when the DDs are physically aligned with the main speakers.

I refuse to use the x-over in the subs as that much interconnect would make an absolute mess of the signal integrity in a high end system. With my CJ PV-5 tube preamp, I also so not have other buffered outputs to use. So better to leave the path from the pre-amp to the amp as simple and direct as possible to get the most accurate signal and sound staging.

So, I wanted to share my experiences and share my opinion that sub woofers are best used in stereo mod if you can get your hands on two. Cascading two DD's in mono would seem to be silly.

I am considering DD-15s as the DD-12s are quite a bit smaller than the S-1200s and I often use them as large plant stands. Any my current listening room is quite large and high and open to the rest of the house.

I would also suggest that two smaller subs in stereo mod, would be better than one larger one. Perhaps not be best economics, but when it comes to these things, economic rationality has already taken a back seat! :)

If someone at Velodyne can explain what the phase delay characteristics of the DDs are, that would be very helpful. Does a digital x-over of this type have zero phase delay/rotation at the crossover point? Ditto for the subsonic filter? Again, true -ve phase delay is time travel as far as a transient is concerned.

CJ PV5, Aragon 8008, Magnepan IIIa's - all modfied

What power protection is known to be built into the DD series? Are there surge protectors in the power supply? Are there load limiting zeners in the inputs?

Velodyne does not speak about using surge protectors in the users manual.

Just wondering. Lots of lightning around here.

How are the accelerometers mounted in the DD series?

With the S-1220's, they were stuck in the voice coil with hot melt glue.

Are the new ones field replaceable?

Shipping the whole very heavy driver cross county can be a problem.

Is there a policy at Velodyne to keep accelerometers stocked for a certain number of years?

When you can't replace it, the sub is trash!

greetings, i anewbie trying to set up my new CHT10 im trying to figure out whats the recommended hz setting for my kit. i just replaced my polk psw404 subs and tried out your cht10 bec ive been reading about the feedbacks so much as im a polk fan i just tried this 10 inch sub for size.

Of the polk psw404, the bass seemed to have more depth when i playd my eagles dvd but it bottmed out (pop/crack sound?) when i tried my gladiator DTS version. I did he same on this baby and WOW ! i was impressed since the sales guy over at CC told me velodynes never bottom out! (such confidence eh?).. anyway im pretty excited about my set up and i had to buy a Y adapter for the l/r line inuts (hopefully i did this correctly) , set the low crossover to 60hz? i usually set the dts ex setup to cinema B for movies. listening room size : H - 8' W- 11.5' L- 18' FEET. USING SONY str-de 7.1 .

any tips would be greatly appreciated.
ps: i think i gave my wife a shock when i watched K-12 while she was napping, it wasn as loud bfore wth the POlk psw12 (more depth but no punch..)so she's staring at me right now as im writing to you...:D :D :D

How many of you run your dd velos 18" for the LFE channel only?

I am trying to acertain if it is a worthy investment if using for the LFE channel (no other redirect bass from the other channels). The second question is how ofter is the .1 channel used in a movie?

ben

Thanks MrHifi. I would to go for the biggest as well but due to the limited models available at my dealer (There's only available in my country), I had a few options only.

Curt - Is the FSR-15 Servo controlled? Or only the HSG models up?

Oliver

Originally posted by MrHifi
Oliver,

This subwoofer selection issue is really quite simple and from my point of view you are making to big a deal out of it. When it comes to subwoofers, bigger is better. Servo controlled subwoofers generate higher SPL's at lower levels of distortion. Velodyne subs have servos. If you can afford it, buy the biggest Velodyne subwoofer you can afford. I would avoid all the gimmicks such as equalizers and filters. What you want is controlled linear piston performance at low frequencies. I also believe that one subwoofer in a soundfield will provide a less muddy bass than multiple subs. If it helps, my room is 60ft. long, 17 feet wide and 8 feet high. It opens onto other areas at 4 locations. I listen along the narrow dimension, i.e. my chair is 13 feet from the front of my main speakers. The subwoofer is in a corner, almost 15 ft. from the nearest speaker. I used the phase switch on the rear of the FS1800R to maximize a the room's measured SPL with a 30Hz tone fed to both the sub and the main and surround speakers all four of which are very large speakers containing multiple low frequency drivers. When you feed a .250mv signal to the line level input of the preamp, it knocks you out of the room and is deafening. Do not worry about not being able to generate enough low frequency energy. My sub often becomes obtrusive when the moviemakers go overboard with explosions.

I'm also interested in Ben's question, as I'm planning to use a DD-18 for LFE with 2 DD-10's or DD-12's for stereo subs with a Lexicon MC-12B in Bass Enhance mode. Room is 5700 ft3. Any opinions? The smaller subs would be back along the side walls, behind the main listening position, the DD-18 up front.

Brian

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by artman [/i

"any tips would be greatly appreciated."


Hi,
I sent you a PM.
Curt

Curt - "Is the FSR-15 Servo controlled? Or only the HSG models up?"

Oliver [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi Oliver,
The FSR-15 is servo controlled.
Curt

Curt,

My FS1800R was delivered sometime in the mid to late '90's. do you have any idea when these magnificent 600 watt beauties went into and out of production, the catalog? Is the amp a class B amp?

Is there an accelerometer on the coil that generates the back EMF to the amp or is it there a lead network that prevents the cone from mistracking? Are there any articles available on the Servo system incorporated in this series?

I'm geting a lot of questions lately about my FS1800R and feel I should be more knowledgeable.

Hi Art,
Your F-1800RII (600 watts) was the first of our class D amps which are used in our SPL, HGS and DD series.
The accelerometer is attached to the voice coil of the driver. The accelerometer senses movement of the coil/cone and feeds that information to a comparator circuit in the amplifier. The comparator checks the information with the audio signal and determines any correction to make. The driver is tightly controlled by this system and the result is clean, tight, accurate bass and very low distortion. Velodyne holds the patent for this servo feedback design.
The F-1800RII was the first to use a (very) high tech robust driver with a state of the art class D amplifier. The next model was a FSR-18, where the power was increased to 1000 watts. The HGS-18 followed with the current 1250 watts used in our HGS-X and DD series.
Curt

Curt,

Thanks for the information. I can honestly say that having built and listened to speaker systems which went all the way back to the Jensen Free Standing Imperial and the Altec-Lansing A7-500, this F-1800R puts out the cleanest bass I ever heard. Just one more question. I do not remember the II designation on the model number. I know it is a 600 Watt amp but I'm almost certain that there was no II behind the number. Is there any chance that there was an F-1800R that does not have the II designation? You might be asking why I do not just look up the model number on the back. Easy, The speaker is situated in a location that moving it would require too many disconnects. With over a mile of wiring in the vicinity, I do not want to disturb anyhing.

Lastly, that must have been quite a difficult job achieving the right amount of lead in that comparator circuit to anticipate non linearity at the extremes yet prevent oscillation. As I listen to thunderclaps, I stand in awe of Velodyne's engineering gurus. They really made a quantum leap in speaker rdesign.

Art,
There never was a F-1800R as far as we are concerned. They were all F-1800R II's. Some of the amps may not have had the II designation. I also owned all of the oldies you mention plus a ton more. Good Listening!
Thanks,
Curt

Curt -

When you have a free moment, I'd like your opinion on one DD-15 vs. two DD-12s. My room is 2400 cubic feet and is permanently open to a kitchen and living room of about equal size (total of about 5000 cubic feet). I'm leaning toward the two 12s because they should give me slightly more output than the single 15 and I have a few more placement options for a smaller sub.

Of course going with two 12's will be more expensive than a single 15, but from a sound quality/quantity point of view, what are the pros and cons for each option?

I know that a single DD-18 would better the output of the two 12's, but please understand that I have to keep the size of the sub(s) down to keep my wife happy.

All opinions welcome.

Thanks much,

- Tim

Excuse me for butting in Tim, but keeping your wife happy is not a good reason to compromise your audio excellence. One very low frequency speaker always "sounds" better than two. --Less cancellation and interference results in smoother response and tighter bass.

There is no reason to incorporate two subs because there are no directional or positional cues imparted at these low frequencies. The only reason for more than one sub is for sound reinforcement in an extremely large area where the low frequency energy from one sub is insufficient to bring its level up to the SPL of the main speakers as measured with a sound level meter. Buy the biggest one you can afford. Put it where your wife says. Take a measurement at 40Hz with it and 400 Hz with the main speakers. Buy another only if necessary. You want to be able to sustain 110 dB in your environment.

Hey All,

I am trying to get my FSR-12 up and running so I can decide if I need to sell/replace/complement her. (new room..might need a little more) If anyone can give some "shadetree mechanic" help on the symptoms below, I would appreciate it. (all settings on the receiver and the sub are correct and have not been touched in over a year). I suppose I could ship back to velodyne, but at $60 shipping plus a "minimum $185" charge and 3-5 week delay, I would like to make sure it is not something stupid.

(Using an AVIA LFE sweep from 100hz down to 20hz)
The subwoofer will not play any bass unless I tilt it either forwards or backwards about 1"-1.5". It then magically starts producing sound. When I put it back flat, it goes off again. When playing, the sound is a little off though. I hear this background "pop, pop, pop" when I put my ear up to it.
Also, when I power it on or off, I get this audible click about 3 seconds after the power state. I heard that might be normal...

I unscrewed the amp double checked the connections. All looks good. From the amp, the wires go down into the driver area through a small hole and I cant see how they are attached.

I took a look at the front cone and rubber material and all looks well. I unscrewed the 6 bezel screws on the front to try and check the connections, but the actual cone still seemed fastened on. Do I need to loosen something else to get the cone off or can I check the wiring via another route????? (you can tell I am new at this..not to electronics repair, but to audio products)

I checked the Line Input and wiggleg the connector during the LFE sweep. It never kicked in... it only seems to kicks in if I tilt the entire subwoofer forwards or backwards 1.5" or so...(I am not sure if "kicking in" is the right term as I dont know if the output is even correct when tilted..

Anyplace I could start to narrow down the problem??

thx

Mark

Curt or anyone........I just got my CHT-10 and so far so good. What does the phase switch (0 or 180) exactly do? And how should I go about selecting the right position.

Thanx Gov

Hi,
The phase switch determines the in or out movement of the woofer. The correct position is the one that sounds louder. If they sound the same put the switch at "0".
Curt

Pardon me as this is probably a dumb question but I am a newbie to home theater stuff. I just bought a DLS-4000. I am trying to hook it up to a Yamaha RX-V1400. To which RCA connector do I connect the cable from the receiver to? Do I get a Y cable and plug into both the R & L Input?

Also, my house was prewired with RG-6 for the subwoofer. I have a F connector to Phono on each end. Is a subwoofer cable the same as an RCA cable or is it specifically designed for subwoofers? There are monster cables out there that are expensive and I am sure they are great but it seems like they would not be their maximum potential if I had coax between them.

Hi,
Use a "Y" splitter into both inputs of the Velodyne. Your RG-6 should work fine. Some of the so-called "subwoofer" cables include or have a splitter built in and that's handy. Otherwise a "subwoofer" cable is a rca cable.
Curt

bamafamily,
This is a very odd symptom indeed, in fact one that I've never heard before. Whatever the cause, it is surely mechanical for instance a bad volume pot or something simple like that.
If you can't narrow it down to that, I suggest you contact Velodyne service and consider sending the amp panel in to be looked at. The amp alone does not weigh more than 10lbs. and is easily removed for shipment.

Thank you,

D. Saint..

So you think it is the amp....and not the servo wiring???
I am an engineer and could probably troubleshoot the amp to rule out any easy stuff....

I wonder how many times the amp is the problem compared to something else in a 3-4 yr old unit??? 10:1??

thx
Mark

Thanks for your help Curt!

Thanx Curt!

I changed cables and lo and behold, ny sub started working. I didnt think it was the cable so I changed it back to the old cable and it continued working. I reran the LFE Test swwep off the AVIA disk again (100hz down to 20hz) Everything sounded fine until it hit around 38Hz. Then I started getting this "knocking" or "rattling" from the front of the cone. Itried adding some weight to the top but it continued to do it....

Sound like something is loose in there..

ANy ideas??
Any thing I can fix??

thx
Mark

When driving two DD series subs in stereo mode with speaker connections: is there any advantage to strapping both speaker input binding posts together to drive both at once with the same signal?

Perhaps a 3db gain level increase? But just increasing the volume setting would do the exact same thing? Or are there other issues?

They are on order in cherry veneer.

Application: high end audio... not home theater.

Is there anyone who can tell if it’s possible to connect a DD-subwoofer via Hi-level and Line-level (RCA) at the same time? Naturally it’s not my attention to double feed the subwoofer by keeping both connections active, but if it accidentally happens during a short time will it break something. I suppose that at least element wont break according that double feting is even recommended in REL’s subwoofers because of a different electrical engineering. I just need to be able to keep both RCA and speaker wire in the sub’s back panel because I have separate stereo and hometheater systems and I want to use the subwoofer in both systems. When I asked around a little I find out that it’s impossible to double connect a DD-sub via RCA and XLR-input. Nobody seems to know for sure how it is with RCA and speaker level double connecting.

I also want to ask opinions about musicality between DD-12 and DD-15. Is DD-15 as good as DD-12 when it’s pared with small bookshelf speakers like for example Epos M5 or Pen Audio 7.6cx? Is smaller DD-model faster and tighter when very high dB levels aren’t needed?

Color mixup, so I have one DD-15 in cherry, other will be next week. I got them at Kief's, Lawrence KS, (great pricing too!!!) two miles from home. So no problems like a color mixup compounded with shipping. ;-)

Damm, they really are heavy!

Setting it up and wife gets home. She thinks it is 'beautiful'. Thats a good result, and the best result of all.

The DD-15 is having to suffer with surviving s-1200 as a channel mate for now. (running in stereo mode)

The microphone, microphone stand are very well made and HEAVY. No lightweight plastic for that. The AV and microphone cords are very nice too. Seems sad that they will not be of ongoing use. Very impressive.

I found that the slope of the Magnepan IIIa's had some tough dippy doodles at the low end. But I have things quite flat from 16Hz on up. Things really sound better than the out of the box EQ!!!

The Magnepan IIIa's do not start to fall off till around 40Hz, at least in my room. So I was able to slide the parametric EQs to all be down in the lower frequencies. That provides a lot of EQ control for this small part of the auto spectrum.

From my listening seats the DD-15 cannot see the remote; I have a remote eye setup. With a small crappy video monitor ontop of my stereo rack (no TV in room), I need to be there to see the little display. From that location, the DD-15 and the remote eye can both pick up the remote. So it gets confused. I will put something over the DD-15's main eyeball to blind that. That should solve this conflict. Having the grill off probably compounds the main DD-15 eyball seeing the remote. (Is the remote eye when plugged in meant to turn off the main eye?)

I will recheck the EQ later on, as I think the bass sweeps are probably exciting the surface that the microphone stand is on. Could be signiticant alteration of the EQ, will report later. Need to re-EQ when the second DD-15 has landed.

Will have different speaker level connect cables later and the required 25' RS232 cable to couple the remote to both. Those will arrive next week as well. (You will probably not have any luck finding longer (over 6 ft) RS232 M-F DB-9 cables at you local computer stores. I got some stuff from RAM with the RS232 cable and its all tax free and free shipping too.)

The recieved unit was made over a year ago and it running V1.2

All grins so far!

Dean,

Years ago, I gave up trying to use microphones to adjust frequency response in a small room. Mics work well for setting gross levels with pink noise, but trying to flatten the narrow low end covered by the sub with an equalizer is not only impossible, it will also yield incorrect results. The reason is because room boundaries excite and reinforce frequencies selectively. They do so in such narrow ranges and to such a high level that when you try to smooth them out, you may wipe out the fundamentals of a bass or the concussion of a canon. My recommendation is to use the mic for setting the level of the sub with reference to the same signal beamed through the Magnepans. BTW, those Magnepans are magnificent speakers but in reality and by design they have no useful output below 50Hz. If you are seeing something on the mic, it is from room re-enforced/excited reflections of the bass frequencies which should not be cut even if the readout says to do so. The other issue that many refuse to acknowledge is that we do not listen for any period of time at 80-90dB. Instead, we normally prefer average listening levels around 40-50 dB. You need more low end energy at the lower levels to account for this effect. When setting the system up, do it at the lowest levels. Pioneer recommends that when setting up the LFE channel, one should always use a +10dB boost of the LFE channel with respect to the middle frequencies. That works!!!!! Try it, you will love it.

Hi,

I just ordered a DD-18 (due in part to Bruce contributing to this forum which gave me a lot of confidence).

I understand there are optional spike feet with it?

My question: my ht has a floating floor (carpet on 2 sheets of plywood on a 2x4 structure on neoprene pads on concrete).
My existing sub sits directly on the carpet and has a downwards firing driver. I quite enjoy when the floor shakes.
I will be replacing the sub with a DD18.

What are the pros and cons of spikes on or off do you suppose?

Hello,

I am considering buying a DLS-3750R and was wondering if these subs are currently available or would be available in any local Los Angeles area retail stores. I have seen Velodyne products at Good Guys and Circuit City but not the DLS-R models. If anyone has any suggestions on where to purchase one of these or any other local shipping arrival dates please let me know. Are these DLS-R models made in China or the USA?

Thank you,
Jay

Originally posted by jay005
Hello,

I am considering buying a DLS-3750R and was wondering if these subs are currently available or would be available in any local Los Angeles area retail stores. I have seen Velodyne products at Good Guys and Circuit City but not the DLS-R models. If anyone has any suggestions on where to purchase one of these or any other local shipping arrival dates please let me know. Are these DLS-R models made in China or the USA?

Thank you,
Jay

Hi Jay,
Good Guys in fact carries all of the DLS-R models, but they are fairly new to the series so may not have them on display just yet. You may want to check back there and if they don't have them on display, ask when they'll be arriving.

Hope this helps,
Bruce

Hi Bruce,

My room is about 24x20x14, and open on the right side to an almost equally large space.

I already have a Servo-Drive Contrabass for strictly LFE duties, and as it is very very large, it is located in the back left of my room. When I am watching DVD's, I am somewhat aware of its physical location back & left.

I have been thinking of adding a DD-15 into my room, as I have space for it in the front right. I think this would help even out the LFE in my room ( reduce my abilty to locate the Contrabass ), and the DD-15 could help EQ the whole shebang.

Due to my placement constraints ( CB back-left, DD-15 front-right ), do you think I risk running into too much bass cancellation problems ? And as I already have the Contrabass, do you think a DD-15 is enough or should I really consider the DD-18 ?

thanks - Andy

So the only difference between the DLS and the DLS-R is one has a remote?

Hi Gary.
The DLS-R is a total redesign with DSP functionality. The power, volume, presets, phase, mute and light are all controlled by the hand held remote. Then there's the great looking cabinet with the round grill and black gloss finish on the front. Check it out. It's quickly becoming the favorite in it's category. As you can tell we love it.
Curt

Curt thanks for the fast reply

"Due to my placement constraints ( CB back-left, DD-15 front-right ), do you think I risk running into too much bass cancellation problems ? And as I already have the Contrabass, do you think a DD-15 is enough or should I really consider the DD-18 ?"

thanks - Andy [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi Andy,
I'll throw in my opinion. First of all your contrabass sub has two fifteen inch drivers and two eighteen inch passive devices. You would definitely want to use the DD-18, not the fifteen. The DD-18 will balance fairly well against the contrabass unit. It's hard to predict how the two opposing corners will work out. There is potential for cancellation. However by carefully balancing the outputs they may work well together. As you say, you would have the ability to EQ the DD-18 with both units playing. In Keith Yates sub shoot-out the two units had similar spectrograms which essentially show the ability of the subs to reproduce the source.
Hope this helps some.
Curt

curt/bruce - I need some help selecting between your subs. I currently have an SPL-1200 series 1. I have a home theater room in my 1000sf finished basement. The theater room is approx. 250sf and is partially opened to the rest of the basement. I use my system for 65/35 movies and music. My main speakers are B&W CDM 9NTs.

My goal is more punch for the LFE track on DVDs. I'm quite happy with how the SPL-1200 integrates with the mains for music (80Hz crossover).

I'd like to only spend what is required to obtain my objective. I view my choices as the CHT-15R, HGS-12X, HGS-15X, DD-12 or DD-15.

Would the CHT-15R work? I would be concerned with it's integration with the mains for 2 channel music since it's not a sealed design. True? Would the HGS - 12/15X be enough of an improvement over my SPL-1200? Do I need to spend the big money on the DD series - other than the calibration benefits will they provide that much of an improvement over the HGS? Should I consider using my current SPL-1200 along with one of the above?

Finally, could you talk your marketing people into posting list prices on your website?

Sorry for all the questions - and thanks in advance for your help.

Question for the pro's....I am going to purchase a new sub very soon.....I have narrowed it down to 3 companies and one of them is Velodyne.I have decided to go with either the DLS- 5000R or the CHT-15.My question and I know it is just opinions but which one is better and would be a better choice for me.So far I have Polk RTi12's(L & R) and Polk CSi5 for the center and will be getting the Pioneer 1014....I will be getting Polk's for the rear.I listen to about 70% HT and 30% music(Hardrock) Hopefully with this info you guys could steer me in the right direction.Thanks...Oh the room's size(open floor plan) is about 13 x 15 that opens to about the same size on the other side.I hope I explained it correct.Thanks again....one more thing where can I get a picture of the back(controls)of the DLS-5000R?

Bruce/Curt,

I have just unpacked and hooked up my new DD-18. Unfortunately, though the Velodyne Logo light on the front comes on, nothing else seems to work. The unit does not respond to any button on the remote control (with or without the grill on the speaker), nor does it generate a video signal for my tv (and I have checked the connection and setup with another video source). This is very disappointing. Any ideas?

Mark

Originally posted by mccomiskey
Bruce/Curt,

I have just unpacked and hooked up my new DD-18. Unfortunately, though the Velodyne Logo light on the front comes on, nothing else seems to work. The unit does not respond to any button on the remote control (with or without the grill on the speaker), nor does it generate a video signal for my tv (and I have checked the connection and setup with another video source). This is very disappointing. Any ideas?

Mark

Hi Mark,
Sent you a PM with a couple other tests to try.

Bruce

Originally posted by Mit07
curt/bruce - I need some help selecting between your subs. I currently have an SPL-1200 series 1. I have a home theater room in my 1000sf finished basement. The theater room is approx. 250sf and is partially opened to the rest of the basement. I use my system for 65/35 movies and music. My main speakers are B&W CDM 9NTs.

My goal is more punch for the LFE track on DVDs. I'm quite happy with how the SPL-1200 integrates with the mains for music (80Hz crossover).

I'd like to only spend what is required to obtain my objective. I view my choices as the CHT-15R, HGS-12X, HGS-15X, DD-12 or DD-15.

Would the CHT-15R work? I would be concerned with it's integration with the mains for 2 channel music since it's not a sealed design. True? Would the HGS - 12/15X be enough of an improvement over my SPL-1200? Do I need to spend the big money on the DD series - other than the calibration benefits will they provide that much of an improvement over the HGS? Should I consider using my current SPL-1200 along with one of the above?

Finally, could you talk your marketing people into posting list prices on your website?

Sorry for all the questions - and thanks in advance for your help.

Hi Mit,
Interesting situation. You say you want more "punch" for the LFE tracks. My first reaction is that your SPL 1200 should have all the punch you need. However, its set up to integrate with your B&Ws, (which we hold in very high regard, BTW) and so does not offer the punch you're looking for.

The first word that comes to mind is "presets." That is, some way to dynamically adjust the volume and frequency contour of the woofer to adapt to the source material. Of the models you mentioned, the CHT-15R and DD series have presets, but as you point out the sealed design of the DD makes it a better fit with your B&Ws. So, my first choice for a "single woofer" solution would be a DD-12 or DD-15.

Or, you could add another woofer just for LFE. Here, the CHT-15R would be a scary performer, assuming you've got the floor real estate. It's kind of like a Frankenstein design - we took a 15" driver in a slotted cabinet, put in the SPL switching amplifier (the SPL-I amp like you have with 600 watts), and paired it with the new 2401 DSP computer we use on the rest of the DLS-R series. To say it's loud is a gross understatement.

Or as another alternative, find another SPL-1200 I and tune it to play LFE. That is, more volume and possibly a lower crossover point.

I don't as a rule point people to the highest $$$ solution, but in this case, I would recommend the DD. There is no substitute for what you can do with the EQs, the presets, and adjusting the servo, all from the comfort of your TV screen. You will really appreciate it.

Hope this helps,
Bruce

p.s. I'll talk to the marketing people, but as Dilbert said, there's a two drink minimum over there!

Originally posted by GaryZ06
Question for the pro's....I am going to purchase a new sub very soon.....I have narrowed it down to 3 companies and one of them is Velodyne.I have decided to go with either the DLS- 5000R or the CHT-15.My question and I know it is just opinions but which one is better and would be a better choice for me.So far I have Polk RTi12's(L & R) and Polk CSi5 for the center and will be getting the Pioneer 1014....I will be getting Polk's for the rear.I listen to about 70% HT and 30% music(Hardrock) Hopefully with this info you guys could steer me in the right direction.Thanks...Oh the room's size(open floor plan) is about 13 x 15 that opens to about the same size on the other side.I hope I explained it correct.Thanks again....one more thing where can I get a picture of the back(controls)of the DLS-5000R?

Hi Gary,
The DLS-5000R is the "next generation" CHT-15. Please see my recent post to Mit07 for a quick description. It will more than fit the bill for your hard rock and LFE needs.

The DLS-5000R has a remote that handles preset selection, volume, phase, mute, and night mode functions. So, all that's needed are volume up and down buttons and an adjustable crossover knob on the DLS-500R back panel - that's it.

One more thing - you might find the CHT-15 on closeout somewhere. The DLS-5000R is not officially out yet - we expect to ship in December.

Hope this helps,
Bruce

Bruce thanks for your help:D

Bruce,

Thanks for the PM. I replied, so just let me know what to do next.

Mark

Okay Bruce....yeah I know I am confused so let me add one more question about subs.In my previous question just a couple of posts above I asked you about the DLS-5000R and the CHT-15.....How would the SPL-1200 Series II compare.....would it be better for me?I like the smaller size but want to make sure it has a good punch. Thanks again and I am sure it is not the last question about your geat subs.:D

Originally posted by GaryZ06
Okay Bruce....yeah I know I am confused so let me add one more question about subs.In my previous question just a couple of posts above I asked you about the DLS-5000R and the CHT-15.....How would the SPL-1200 Series II compare.....would it be better for me?I like the smaller size but want to make sure it has a good punch. Thanks again and I am sure it is not the last question about your geat subs.:D

Hi Gary,
The SPL-1200 is more powerful at 1,000 watts, and has the most output of the SPL series. Being sealed, it is more accurate than anything with a port or slot, and has a current sensing servo to increase accuracy even more. It won't match the DLS-5000R's output levels, but it will certainly put out plenty.

All things being equal, and that you like 70% HT and mostly hard rock, the DLS-5000R might be a better choice. And, it is just over half the $$$ of the SPL-1200. But I would urge you to go listen for yourself!

Hope this helps,
Bruce

Curt or Bruce,

I need to replace my remote and accessory kit for my DD-12.
It was damaged during the storm surge of Hurricane Ivan here in Gulf Breeze, Florida. The subwoofer itself seems to be allright. Who do i need to get in touch with for these replacements. I love this sub.

Thanks,

Jeff

Originally posted by BruceHall
Hi Gary,
The SPL-1200 is more powerful at 1,000 watts, and has the most output of the SPL series. Being sealed, it is more accurate than anything with a port or slot, and has a current sensing servo to increase accuracy even more. It won't match the DLS-5000R's output levels, but it will certainly put out plenty.

All things being equal, and that you like 70% HT and mostly hard rock, the DLS-5000R might be a better choice. And, it is just over half the $$$ of the SPL-1200. But I would urge you to go listen for yourself!

Hope this helps,
Bruce
Thanks again for your vital help.

Bruce, thanks for your helpful response. I have a follow-up question on the DD series (if you have answered this before please post a link).

The brochure for the DD series indicates that you can set the sub to play louder (e.g. for movies) or tighter (e.g. for music) depending on the source material. No more compromising between a "musical" sub and a "theatrical" sub.

Could you please explain this a bit further. In other words is the movie/music preset simply increasing the loudness for more SPL during movies? Or telling the servo not to limit the cone excursion as much (again to play louder) at the expense of slightly more distortion?

I want to believe that a great "musical" sub is also a great "theatrical" sub. Why the need for presents if this is true?

Mit07 -

I own a DD sub and can answer your questions about the music / movie settings for the series. The DDs are super flexible and allow you to create five custom presets. The adjustments include servo control, separate volume settings, and frequency response contour control. There are also other adjustments that can be made to each preset, but the three I've just listed are the most relevant to your question.

The servo control allows you to adjust the servo from 1-8 (1 = least amount of servo control, 8 = full servo control). For movies, you could set it to 1 for greater output (slightly higher distortion), and for music set it to 8. The contour feature allows you to shape the response. You pick the center frequency for the range you want to enhance and the level of intensity (gain is +6dB to -12dB). For instance, for movies you could set the contour to 40Hz for greater slam. And of course, you adjust the overall volume for each preset depending on your preference for various sources.

Note: The presets are labeled things like "Movies", "Jazz", "Rock", on the remote, but they can be customized however you like.

Cheers,

- Tim

A question for the room. In my bedroom system, I am running KEF KHT 9000 ACE speakers,and B&W SCM 8 surrounds. I have an opportunity to buy a DD-10 at a great price, but am concerned it may not be pwerful enough -- my room is 23x17x9. I can't afford the DD12 or 15. So, do I go with the more technologically advanced, but perhaps too small DD10, or a larger, but inferior model? My budget is about $1200, which is what I can get the DD10 for.

Tim, thanks for your response. I'm still a bit confused and would love to hear from Bruce at Velodyne. Follow-up:

#1 Servo. If you adjust the servo from 1-8 (low to high) for servo control, how much more distortion is there at 1 vs 8. At what level of distortion does it become audible? In other words, why not set the servo at the level that provides the most output w/o audible distortion for music and movies. What good is more output if it creates audible distortion?

#2 Frequency response contour. Why would anyone want to increase the level of intensity at a certain frequency range? Are movies more dynamic if you increase the gain at 40Hz in Tim's example? Doesn't this defeat the whole purpose of using the DD to flatten out a rooms low frequency response peaks and valleys? If you increase the 40Hz range for "more slam" during a movie, would't the musical scenes in the same movie sound unnatural?

#3 Volume. Is this simply the "usual" volume dial on the back of most subs that increase the output.

Thanks.

Originally posted by Mit07
Tim, thanks for your response. I'm still a bit confused and would love to hear from Bruce at Velodyne. Follow-up:

#1 Servo. If you adjust the servo from 1-8 (low to high) for servo control, how much more distortion is there at 1 vs 8. At what level of distortion does it become audible? In other words, why not set the servo at the level that provides the most output w/o audible distortion for music and movies. What good is more output if it creates audible distortion?

#2 Frequency response contour. Why would anyone want to increase the level of intensity at a certain frequency range? Are movies more dynamic if you increase the gain at 40Hz in Tim's example? Doesn't this defeat the whole purpose of using the DD to flatten out a rooms low frequency response peaks and valleys? If you increase the 40Hz range for "more slam" during a movie, would't the musical scenes in the same movie sound unnatural?

#3 Volume. Is this simply the "usual" volume dial on the back of most subs that increase the output.

Thanks.

Hi Mit,
#1. The amount of distortion varies depending on output level, but let me describe it this way. At setting one, the servo checks and corrects the cone motion about 5,500 times per second. At setting 8, it checks and corrects at 15,800 times per second. So, there's about 3 times more servo correction at setting eight than setting one, and so you could expect the distortion to be about one third that of setting one. The theory of settings other than eight is that action adventure movies have more explosions, etc. that benefit from a bit more distortion (hence, more output). However, it should be noted that when we say distortion we are talking small levels even at setting one (our HGS series, the predecessor to DD, has correction at 3,500 times per second and folks thought that was very low in distortion), and that this is all strictly to taste - I've seen folks set all the presets to eight and forget about them.

#2. This is not uncommon - to adjust the frequency curve depending on the source material. For movies we bump 35 hz a little (those explosions again) and for pop/rock we bump 60 a little (to get drumbeat slam). For the jazz/classical preset, everything is flat. Once again, all is a matter of personal preference - our factory settings are merely suggestions.

#3. Yes, volume is just volume control. But there is a setting for each preset that allows a "volume differential" - that is, the ability to have a higher or lower volume kick in when the preset is invoked. For example, you might want to have your action adventure preset have 3 dB more volume - so just set it that way.

Have you seen a DD in action? It would make all this a bit easier to understand...

Hope this helps,
Bruce

Bruce, thanks again for your thoughtful response.

I did hear a DD12 at a Tweeter location. Unfortunately I find that:

#1, even in more "knowledgable than average" locations like Tweeter, the salesreps know very little about the DD series, and are useless in providing a quality demo that highlights the DD advantages.

#2, the realization that the best course of action for me is to find as much as I can upfront, and then get my final 2 or 3 sub choices into my home for an extensive demo period. As such, I will need to buy the Velo from a local retailer with return privileges.

Mit07 -

You wrote:
#1 Servo. If you adjust the servo from 1-8 (low to high) for servo control, how much more distortion is there at 1 vs 8. At what level of distortion does it become audible? In other words, why not set the servo at the level that provides the most output w/o audible distortion for music and movies. What good is more output if it creates audible distortion?

I would just like to add to Bruce's explanation by clarifying the type of distortion we are talking about here. It is harmonic distortion, not the type of distortion you hear when the cone is out of control, breaking up or bottoming out (the Velo DD line will never do those things). Harmonic distortion, in reasonable amounts can make the sound more full bodied, and with bass in particular, more visceral / powerful. Some people prefer some amount of harmonic distortion for those reasons.

Cheers,

- Tim

Bruce,

I thought that my FS 1800R's servo was an accelerometer whose output was compared to the output of the amp. The difference emf would be "fed back" to the final amp stages to control the output's linearity. Your description of newer models with "sampling" makes me believe that the servo mechanism has been modified in newer models. Is there a paper describing the operation and topology of my mid 90's 600 watt 18" model? I'd be willing topay for a copy.

Is there a way to buy one grille for a CHT 41 satellite speaker?, oh, and a small logo for another?

Originally posted by hifisponge
Mit07 -

You wrote:
#1 Servo. If you adjust the servo from 1-8 (low to high) for servo control, how much more distortion is there at 1 vs 8. At what level of distortion does it become audible? In other words, why not set the servo at the level that provides the most output w/o audible distortion for music and movies. What good is more output if it creates audible distortion?

I would just like to add to Bruce's explanation by clarifying the type of distortion we are talking about here. It is harmonic distortion, not the type of distortion you hear when the cone is out of control, breaking up or bottoming out (the Velo DD line will never do those things). Harmonic distortion, in reasonable amounts can make the sound more full bodied, and with bass in particular, more visceral / powerful. Some people prefer some amount of harmonic distortion for those reasons.

Cheers,

- Tim

Absolutely - thanks Tim for the clarification.

Bruce

Originally posted by MrHifi
Bruce,

I thought that my FS 1800R's servo was an accelerometer whose output was compared to the output of the amp. The difference emf would be "fed back" to the final amp stages to control the output's linearity. Your description of newer models with "sampling" makes me believe that the servo mechanism has been modified in newer models. Is there a paper describing the operation and topology of my mid 90's 600 watt 18" model? I'd be willing topay for a copy.

Hi Art,
Topology paper? You overestimate our documentation department :(

There are differences in the two servos, but in exection only - not in fundamental design.

The servo in your FS 1800R is an analog servo design. That is, a piezo electric chip strains when the cone moves, generating a tiny signal proportional to the acceleration of the cone. This signal goes through an op amp and is fed to a comparator circuit, which compares it to the input signal, which is also really just a representation of acceleration. The difference between the two signals is amplified and biases the signal to the woofer, essentially pre distorting the signal to reduce distotion. The loop gain (that is, benfit from the servo system) is actually measured in dB, in this case about 30 dB, but we translate it to a numerical figure for ease of understanding, and it amounts to about 3500 cone corrections per second.

The DD servo is digital. Same Piezo chip, same tiny signal, but this time it is run through an a to d converter and a digital representaiton of the signal is fed to an input port on the 2407 DSP chip. Each time through the computer's loop - in our case about 15,800 times per second, the acceleromoter signal is compared to the input signal the same way as in the analog design. The signal sent to the amplifier is again biased to reduce distortion. The comparator circuit in the analog design is now represented by software - an inherently more accurate and flexible way to do things.

There are two key differences between the systems. First, the digital nature of the DD system reduces servo noise. I'll bet that if you stick your ear into your FS 1800R you'll hear a faint white noise - this is the servo loop. The digital system has no such noise at all - it is completely quiet.

The other difference is in loop gain - 3500 versus 15,800 times per second, and we get the benefit of putting in a scale to control the loop gain - this is what we call the theater/music setting.

Other servo systems rely on back-EMF, positional sensors, or put a microphone inside the cabinet, or have other transducers. We've found this way provides the most loop gain and hence, the most benefit.

I hope this helps explain things - and it's free! Of course, you get what you pay for... :D

Bruce

I've read through the DD user guide, and still have a question regarding cabling to the DD-15.

This is part of a combination HT/music setup that will include an Anthem pre/pro, 7-channel power amp, and a set of Gallo Ref3/a'Diva speakers. The cable run to the sub will be a bit long, so I'm thinking that using a balanced XLR cable is the best way to get from the pre/pro to it.

Questions: Will this work for both HT and music, or can the balanced input supply HT LFE only? If this is not optimal, what is?

Thanks!

Hi,
The XLR will accept both H/T and music as long as your processor is sending both. It's a balanced line level input. I hope this answers your question.
Thanks,
Curt

Curt/Bruce,

I finally have both DD15's hooked up and calibrated with less than 2db difference from 15Hz to 160HZ. Now my dilemma, recently bought a Pronto Pro TSU7000 and really need discrete Power On and Power Off codes. Can one of you guys please provide the discrete codes for the DD series?

Thanks
Ryan

Having worked at the National Bureau of Standards early in my carrer, I learned the difference between calibrate and adjust.

Ryan, you adjusted the gain pots to achieve the aforementioned tolerance of 2 dB. Calibration occurs when you set a devices tolerances based on a primary or reference standard thus creating a calibrated secondary standard or device.

Hope you accept this in the spirit I offer it.

I am amazed that you can set any speaker system to a tolerance of 2 dB in a range of 15Hz to 160 Hz. If you look at a real time analyzer when pink noise is sent through those speakers, you will see peaks of 15 dB. I'm not sure how many adjustments are available with the DD15 but I would sure like to understand the Q at the adjustment center points. I have tried doing this in real rooms and have always preferred my ears to the analyzer's results. Perhaps one of the folks from Velodyne would offer some detail on what kind of smoothing/integrationis being done in the readout.

Mr. Hi Fi -

I'm not sure if this will answer your question, but the Q (filter width) and center frequency are adjustable for all 8 of the parametric filters in the DD subs. The center frequency is adjustable in one Hz increments, and the Q is adjustable from very narrow to fairly wide (sorry I don't recall the exact range).

I was also recently told by Curt with Velodyne that the RTA measures and plots 490 points from 15Hz to 200Hz. So it would seem that the resolution of the measurements / readout are quite good.

The DD outputs a sweep tone, rather than pink noise for the reading. Sweep tones are said to be the preferred (more accurate) type of test tone for taking low frequency measurements, but then you probably already know that. ;-)

With that said, I have to agree that the results typically look better than they sound after visually flattening the response. But I haven't given up yet. There are just too many audio authorities advocating the use of parametric EQ for in-room LF correction. And even if I can't get the bass to sound right using the RTA, at least the parametric filters can be adjusted by ear (though it will probably be a laborious process).

Cheers,

- Hifisponge

Not finalized, but sounds great. There is a level of control that the S-1200's never had!!!, and they had good distortion specs... makes one wonder!

Waiting on speaker cables for final speaker level connects and 25' RS232 cable.

Using a cheap but interesting 7" DVD player with video input to setup the DD-15s.

Had my father-in-law over to hear the first DD-15, he purchase one a few days later to replace his older 18" Velodyne.

DD-15's in stereo mode
Aragon 8008
Magnepan IIIa's
CJ PV5
Denon DCD 2700 instrument grade select 20 bit DACs
Everything modified (except the DD-15s)
+ no TV :)

Sponge,

It sounds like Velodyne did their homework and provided a very usable parametric equalizer with the kind of adjustability that just might work. I would love to couple it to a paper plot of frequency vs. level to examine the resulting bass reponse. Thanks for the information.