One thing that I LOVE already is being able to either tape two shows at the same time or to tape one show and watch another live show. Having a standalone Tivo until today, I didn't know what I was missing.

Does anyone know if the SATA port is enabled on the 8300HD? If so, will any external SATA drive work or does it require special firmware or something to operate (meaning that TW would have to dole them out)?

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
I wonder if we should ask the Mods to create a seperate thread for discussion of Cincinnati area cable issues which aren't directly related to the HD Locals/OTA ? Jeff..

I dunno, I'm kind of for leaving it all one one thread. But I wouldn't oppose a cable thread. However, I might ask those with generic hardware issues to move those to the Hardware Forum. The performance of a particular cable box, connections, interfaces or capabilities isn't unique to the Cincinnati area. I would think that such conversations would draw faster and better answers from the entire HDTV community.

Not trying to rain on anyone, just rein in the thread a bit and help those with specific hardware issues get faster answers and - at the same time - help those newbies to the thread learn specific issues w/r/t Cincinnati without having to sift through too many unrelated posts. Quite a few of which are mine, although I try to periodically prune them.

Just a suggestion And thanks, to all, for making this one of the most efficient local threads on AVS.

Hardware and general programming will come up frequently, but they can always be reminded there are forums for those. I believe discussion of DBS/OTA/Cable/IP-TV (if and when it comes) all belong in this forum.

Originally posted by DrDon
Jeff..

I dunno, I'm kind of for leaving it all one one thread. But I wouldn't oppose a cable thread. However, I might ask those with generic hardware issues to move those to the Hardware Forum. The performance of a particular cable box, connections, interfaces or capabilities isn't unique to the Cincinnati area. I would think that such conversations would draw faster and better answers from the entire HDTV community.

Not trying to rain on anyone, just rein in the thread a bit and help those with specific hardware issues get faster answers and - at the same time - help those newbies to the thread learn specific issues w/r/t Cincinnati without having to sift through too many unrelated posts. Quite a few of which are mine, although I try to periodically prune them.

Just a suggestion And thanks, to all, for making this one of the most efficient local threads on AVS.

I can agree that many of the general equipment workings could move to a hardware thread, however people discussing DVR availability from cable and how to obtain one and figuring out what is active and not active in our particular area, I think fits here unless we have a separate Cincy Cable thread.

I will make a personal effort to push links to people when appropriate and not regurgitate material from other threads. As mentioned above, I do have some information pertaining to the release of the 8300 HD DVR from time warner that I think is appropriate for this forum since it affects us here in cincy directly. I will discuss in the next post.

I talked to a tech last night about 10:30 concerning my 8300. They are a little in the dark since it is brand new to them and don't have a whole lot of information yet. But, for anyone planning on using the HDMI port it is NOT active at this time. They do plan on activating it but it comes from a software upgrade that will happen automatically without you knowing. He told me he thought it should happen within a few weeks but he had nothing concrete.

Best you can do is check it periodically or keep calling them until they tell you it is active. If you plan on using it, I would make a call about it just to put a bug up their butt. The more calls they get, the quicker it will be resolved.

2 side notes:
1. For those with the 8000 HD DVR, he said they will NOT be using that box. The ones that are out there just happen to still work but all new ones coming in will be the 8300.

2. I mentioned last night that I was getting weird vertical lines that looked like UPC symbols jumping all over the screen. I tried everything and the tech was 99% sure it had to be the box. Figures, I go through that much effort to get this thing and I get the crappy one. Other than the lines, the box seems to work great and has a nice fast reaction time.

Any luck with the HDMI cable output working?

Also - are you able to disable certain resolutions such as 720p so SD comes through with 480 and HD with 1080?

I am supposed to pick mine up today but now am really hesitant because of all these issues.

Thanks
Tony

I think I am going to hold out for a few weeks now.

Hello everyone,

I started a new thread in the HDTV Hardware section of AVS.

It is called "Cincinnati/N. KY HD Hardware Thread".

I made a few posts already. Any of us with hardware issues in the Cin/N KY area, let's move them over there. Those in N. KY, please come on board as well if you have anything going on in your area.

It can be a good forum for tips, tricks, tweaks, availabililty, etc.

If anyone sees people posting questions that should fall under this thread, please post a link for them so we don't clog up the Cincy Reception thread.

Here is a link:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=5120541

Thanks,
mchuckp

Advantages to cable: Picture rarely goes out. Cost of equipment is minimal. Local service is fast, at least on the South side of the river. I'm not a big fan of On-Demand, but I've used it several times. When something misses the last minute of a show because of one of those timing glitches, On Demand gets that minute for me in a hurry if it's a premium channel. I can't compare picture quality. But I don't worry about things like signal strength.

Instead of starting another thread and having this all unsearchable mess why not just move to:

cincinnatihdtv.com

At least there we can have a topic for each separate discussion unlike here, 1 thread with everything it.
We could always leave last entry with a link so people that find this can go there.

Agreed

Much easier than navigating through all these forums

Originally posted by tbenson81
Agreed

Much easier than navigating through all these forums

I haven't really spent any time over there. If someone wants to start a thread, I will cut and paste some of our discussions to it.

I don't care either way. I just want a place we can discuss stuff.

I also called yesterday and explained that I have been calling since last summer when the Dayton and Columbus market both received the HD DVR. I politely told the girl that I would have to look into making a switch back to satellite if a box wasn't going to be made available to me. She put me on hold and came back and said one was waiting for me at Tri-County.

Originally posted by DrDon
Jeff..

I dunno, I'm kind of for leaving it all one one thread. But I wouldn't oppose a cable thread. However, I might ask those with generic hardware issues to move those to the Hardware Forum. The performance of a particular cable box, connections, interfaces or capabilities isn't unique to the Cincinnati area. I would think that such conversations would draw faster and better answers from the entire HDTV community.

Not trying to rain on anyone, just rein in the thread a bit and help those with specific hardware issues get faster answers and - at the same time - help those newbies to the thread learn specific issues w/r/t Cincinnati without having to sift through too many unrelated posts. Quite a few of which are mine, although I try to periodically prune them.

Just a suggestion And thanks, to all, for making this one of the most efficient local threads on AVS.

I agree with this 100%, and others who want to keep the thread "together". I think it's proven itself many times over to be beneifical to have everything that even remotely relates to Cincinnati HDTV "topics" which don't belong "elsewhere" in one place, as for instance, sometimes you'll happen across something that might interest you which you may not have noticed otherwise. And, you've got everyone looking in the same place, so questions/etc that relate to "HD" in the area will get seen. But, it seems to me that a discussion of a new STB that TW is rolling out(I assume they'll be doing that in other markets besides Cincinnati as well) belongs elsewhere, as specific threads for specific subjects of wide interest are very useful in hardware/programming area of AVS.

I brought it up only because Cable/OTA was the only way to "split" it that I can think of, and I've just noticed that in the last several weeks or so, we've been going as high as 4 pages or more of posts a day -- sometimes, they're all very "on topic" posts, and I thought that might be a bit much for everyone to sift through.

I'll do my best as well to keep the off topic posts/comments to a minimum, perhaps if we could all make an effort to try to minimalize the necessity to "repeat" information that might be useful as well.

But, If it ever turns out that the cable folks DO want to start their own thread here, I talked to the Moderator about it, and you can do so(read the "5 Simple forum Rules thread in this area"for more info) if you notify the moderator via PM, and if there is someone who can keep the first post of thread updated+summarized.

Thanks,

I must have been one of the first 'suckers' they got a hold of...don't know how I ended up with the 8000 box...but I'm not really complaining. I will when they active the SATA out on the 8300 box!

For the 8300 owners, does the box have the firewire ports soldered in?

Thanks.

Troy

I lurk a lot and don't contribute much but even though I use D*TV, I don't mind seeing the information about cable service/equipment/problems, etc. I like to stay informed across the board. It helps me with any future decisions plus my friends look to me as the closest thing they have to an expert.

Originally posted by jkeane
I lurk a lot and don't contribute much but even though I use D*TV, I don't mind seeing the information about cable service/equipment/problems, etc. I like to stay informed across the board. It helps me with any future decisions plus my friends look to me as the closest thing they have to an expert.

I think this is where my head is at a lot times. I don't do OTA or satellite right now, but I like hearing about what others are dealing with in case I ever decide to go that route.

Seems like what would be really nice is if they reorganized the folders.

Have a section in the AVS forums called "Cincinnati HDTV". Then within that folder you can have assorted threads for OTA, Hardware, programming, etc. That way all info is at least in one spot and easy to find for newbies.

Just a thought.

DTV Channel first round election update:

A couple more 1st round Channel election forms are in to FCC.

WKRC-DT wants Channel 12 as the channel for their DTV station after analog shut off -- Here's the link to their channel election form:

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101039152&formid=382&fac_num=11289

WCET-DT wants to keep their digital station on 34 after analog shut off. Here's their 1st round channel election form:

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101044630&formid=382&fac_num=65666

Links require Adobe acrobat, I believe.

(note there's a notice on FCC site that some of their system(problaby including the above links) will be down this weekend.

-----------------------------------------------

So, follows is waht is in for Dayton/cincinnati area so far concerning where the stations want thier RF signal to be on the dial analog shut off :

WKRC - 12
WPTD - 16
WCVN - 24
WPTO - 28
WXIX - 29
WCET - 34

Fox 19 and TWC have come to an agreement. The full Press Release is over on my site.

HD DVR and FOX HD all in a 2 day span!!!!

Wow..., that was impressive! I almost cr&$&d my pants. :) lol j.k.

just tested, still no channel 919 on my Pace TW box. (2:12pm Friday)

I just looked and it is on my Pioneer Voyager 3510.

HD DVR and FOX HD all in a 2 day span!!!!

Ditto that!

What a glorious week!

Troy

Originally posted by Bubster
just tested, still no channel 919 on my Pace TW box. (2:12pm Friday)

Update 2:20pm Friday: Just did the 4 second power button Reboot of the Pace box and 919 is now there.

Is Mchuckp the only one who has tried the HDMI on the 8300?

Is it correct to assume that this has been disabled for everyone until a software update has been released?

Has anyone successfully connected via HDMI with their 8300?

Thanks

Man, after one night of HD on my bedroom 30" HDtv, I REEALLY need a calibration. I thought CSI was much crispier(hot) upstairs than the 61"RPTV in the basement.

WXIX HD = Woot!

i for one am glad they finally worked it out.. the more hd the better for the rest pof us

Originally posted by mchuckp
I haven't really spent any time over there. If someone wants to start a thread, I will cut and paste some of our discussions to it.

I don't care either way. I just want a place we can discuss stuff.

I welcome any comments about that site as well, like changes, thouhts, etc.
Thanks,

FYI, came home from work to find the channel 19 HDTV on Time Warner Cincinnati, channell 919. HDTV superbowl afterall. Glad I didn't buy an OTA decoder just for this.

Anyone else seeing the FOX logo going off the lower right of the screen on TW 919? About half the X is cutoff on the right side and the logo touches the bottom barely. Could my overscan be that bad? No issues on other HD channels. Also on SD stuff on 919 I see white lines at the top left of the image.

Yes, I can only see a part of the "F" on the Fox logo. I was wondering the same thing. Also, the color saturation looks a little high...

...but I'm going to watch the Superbowl in HD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks bnewsom, I was concerned it was my Sammy.

The 8300 seems to be working pretty well with a few minor issues that I have encountered thus far.

1) As most know you have to follow a couple steps to get the remote programmed before the List and several other buttons will work. The info is a couple pages back on the post

2) It is very nice because you can enable and disable any aspect ratios. Since my tv doesnt support 720p, I just disable that so it passes through all the native resolutions and upconverts 720 to 1080. However, if you select more than 1 resolution, it will take more time to change channels because your tv has to convert the different resolutions.

3) When using the guide and changing channels, I noticed that the error rate increases drastically, ultimately causing some pixelization on the recored show. I would try not to do a whole lot of surfing / guide veiwing when you are recording. To enter the diagnostic mode- hold select and exit and then tune to 611

4) The picture is not nearly as nice on SD or HD with the component as it was with my DVI on my old pace 550. Hopefully, they will activate the HDMI soon so we can enhance the quality a little of the channels.

I have only had this hooked up for about an hour so this is just a preliminary evaluation of the new box. Overall, I think anyone would be happy with it and definitely seems like the best box TW offers now.

There is definitely something wrong with fox 919. Its not just the logo on the right but looks as though the entire picture that is being outputted by the box is zoomed or something.

Hopefully they get it fixed in time for the game

Bigtime lurker here chiming in.

First off, it's great that TWC and Fox19 finally came to an agreement. I'm happy I'll get to see the Super Bowl in HD (although WXIX's HDTV bug needs some serious work).

Second, I was wondering what HDTV boxes TWC is giving out right now. I currently have a Pace 550 box, but the guide and info boxes being stuck in 4:3 and not being able to pick what resolutions to output are kind of annoying. However, I need the component passthrough to hook up all my things. A buddy of mine has a Pioneer 3510HD, which he says is great, but doesn't have a component passthrough. Does TWC give out any different boxes for HD? Thanks for any info.

Mike

Just had to post -- Yoo hoo !!!!!! Superbowl in HD on TWC

:) :)

The pace 550 can change output resolutions by pressing the display button on the box, however you cannot change the guide, the new 8300HD DVR does the same thing (4:3 guide) but also allows you to slect which resolutions to use.
Anyone know how to make the side bars black instead of grey? I assume they did this for plasmas, but I don't have a plasma and would rather have them be black.

If you are not after HD DVR - you have by far the best HD box.

In my opinion, the pace is head and shoulders above the pioneer. As the above posts say - you can change the resolutions as well by following those steps

The FOX logo on HD is set at 0% overscan, so everyone has a little bit cut off. WXIX hasn't put in their own logo, so it is the defult Fox national logo. I am glad they have an agreement.

You can also select the Pace 550 output resolution with the remote control. Press & hold the # (enter) key. An on screen menu will pop up that lets you select pass/1080i/720p/480p/480i. You can also select aspect ratio and captioning on this menu.

I have the same thing on my TV with the FOX bug. I have a built in ATSC tuner in my Hitachi. I read through the manual and found that with the screen saver which moves the picture around to keep burn-in from happening that I get "over 96% of the screen is displayed at 720p". Maybe some of you have the moving screen thing as well??

It is kinda nice though that the bug is off of the picture on a SD show.

yep.. lets all keep quiet about the bug - its been that way since day 1 - otherwise fox 19 might put their hideous multi color burnorama bug in there..

I got an email stating that the Chief Engineer at WCPO adjusted the encoder to '1280x720', and said this will hopefully end the 'jaggies' problem.

Originally posted by JunkyardDogg
I got an email stating that the Chief Engineer at WCPO adjusted the encoder to '1280x720', and said this will hopefully end the 'jaggies' problem.

Great. Why wouldn't it have been set to that all along?

I have my Pace box set to Pass right now, which is minorly annoying because there are a few seconds of pause when I switch between SD channels or 720p or 1080i channels. I would like to set the box to show 1080i all the time but I don't want to because for some reason when I have it set to 1080i, the picture of the SD channels get pushed to the right and it cuts off the picture when I have the channel stretched.

What I would like to do with the Pace box is select two resolutions for it to output, 480i and 1080i. That way, I wouldn't have the SD pictures getting pushed to the right and the only time the box would have to readjust the resolution is between changing from HD to SD. This is what my friend does with his Pioneer box and it is pretty nice.

Also, I hope WCPO really did fix the jaggies problem. That was extremely annoying watching MNF all season like that.

wcpo and jaggies..

hopefully it works.. although I will reserve saying "yahoo" until I see it :)

looks like tonite they have desparate housewives in hd.. we shall see!

Gremmie - The following procedure will allow you to set seperate resolutions for SD and HD with the Pace box.

"Enabling Graphics on Composite output and Overriding the HD Resolution for Analog Channels
By default, graphics are not present on the Composite/S-Video output of the Pace 550 on analog channels. The following procedure enables graphics on the Composite output. This procedure also overrides the selected HD resolution when tuned to analog channels setting the resolution to 480
1). Turn on the TV. To display the menu on the right, press DISPLAY button on front panel of the home terminal.
2). Press the front-panel ch+ or ch- button until you highlight the ‘resolution’ setting (shown as HdSd on the front panel display).
3). Press the SELECT button on the front-panel. The current setting for each item is in brackets e.g. <1080i>.
4). Press the front-panel ch+ or ch- buttons to set resolution to 480i.
5). Press GUIDE on the front panel or remote control, the MAIL message (Envelope) LED on the front-panel display should be lit. Press EXIT on the front panel (or left arrow on the remote). The MAIL message (Envelope) LED should go off.
6). Follow steps 1- 3 and then using the ch+ or ch- buttons set the resolution to match the HD resolution of the HDTV the Pace 550 is connected too. Press EXIT on the front"

For whatever reason, Pace placed this procedure in their quick reference guide, but not in the users manual.

Does anyone know if the FOX logo currently on WXIX, would be replaced with this:

http://www.fox19.com

The logo under 'How to Receive HDTV' on the right side of the screen.

JimDx, I am a bit confused about your procedure. Composite output? Or is that a typo?

No it's not a typo as I copied and pasted from a pdf file off of Pace's website. I think what they mean when referencing composite is that by default, graphics are disabled if you use the composite outputs.

By doing that procedure, you can set the box to select 480i for analog channels and whatever you prefer for HD.

It also, apparently, turns on the graphics for composite out.

I've only used it to have the box select 480i and 1080i as appropriate and it works great.

edit for further clarification (I hope): I'm using component outputs. With component, the graphics are on by default.

Originally posted by JunkyardDogg
I got an email stating that the Chief Engineer at WCPO adjusted the encoder to '1280x720', and said this will hopefully end the 'jaggies' problem.

Their encoder has been sending 1280x720, but something in their Signal chain for ABC HD(probably before the MPEGII/HD encoder) is downsampling to 1280x360 .....

I just checked and the Jaggies are still there from WCPO-DT at 9~9:04pm during HD tonight. ABC HD from WKEF-DT Dayton is "true HD" and jaggie free ...

Zenith HDV420 here is also still dropping a lot of video frames during ABC HD tonight, creating a "stuttering" quality to the video, as has been the case since I first noticed this "new" problem from them last weekend. DTC-100 isn't having this problem with them.

we've still got jaggies!!!

jim

ABC looks like crap tonight for me too! It's a very shaky picture. I'm using an OTA Winegard antenna so it's nothing to do with TW guys. All other HD channels are great!

Damn it!

I recorded part of 'Housewives', jaggies and all. I also had a couple of dropouts too! Well, I guess I will respond and tell them it still is bad.

Also still no guide to WKRC-DT, I will them too and will get a response unlike WCPO.

Can't wait for Superbowl!

Didn't figure it was the encoder since the upconverted stuff is jaggie free. Still betting the farm on the ABC-HD sat receiver. It's getting them to go look at it that seems to be difficult.

Anyone else lose sound from WXIX at about 1:20 ???? Hope this isn't how today is going to be.

EDIT!!
Back on at 1:31

I can't say what was happening at 1:20 but I just turned on my system and I've got sound.

Excellent picture and Dolby 5.1 too!

I just lost ALL sound for about 5 min. Picture Q was great the whole time.

Hey I thought it was great news to hear that TW & WXIX got it together for the Super Bowl! I'm getting mine OTA with a built in tuner but I can't imagine having to think about buying a tuner just for the SB. Anyways I'm glad they got it worked out for you guys! Another small step for HD users! Now if we can just get 5.1 out of all the stations!

I just noticed that fox on TW 919 is broadcasting in DD 5.1 also. This is the only local affiliate that I have noticed sending their 5.1 signal to TW. Is NBC / CBS / ABC in 5.1 on TW yet?

Doubtful since they are not in 5.1 OTA either. Earlier in the thread someone mentioned WSTR being broadcast in 5.1 but I have yet to see that.

I think the sound issue was network wide. Some other reports of it on the main Programming page.

I feel sorry for anyone who has an analog TV in one room and the digital in the adjacent. The delay between the two is rather substantial. Must have something to do with the fact Fox encodes the stream THEN sends it out, although I'd think the sum total of time would be the same. None of the other local DTs seem to be as far behind their analogs as Fox.

I really don't have any updates on 5.1 sound. What I do know is that WLWT-DT and WKRC-DT have it in their capex for '05. I also know WKRC-DT is waiting on a CBS "group buy." Weasel might be able to update that. If ABC is going to change their distribution methods, this year, you KNOW WCPO will wait to see what happens with that. WSTR-DT has done 5.1. We're in February sweeps, now, so engineers are pretty tied up. Same with May.

Nice touch with the HDTV crawl just now.

WXIX, WSTR, WCET, WCVN all send DD5.1.
WCPO and WKRC have said they would upgrade to DD5.1 in the near future.

Only 4 more hours until the game gets started!

wxix sends 5.1 when its part of the network feed.. ie.. if they insert some local ad or something.. its dd 2.0 (not that it really matters )

Wow, no post-game reviews yet? I, for one, am thrilled that Time Warner was able to get it together in time for the game. I was considering watching it elsewhere, but when I heard the deal had been done, I invited some friends over to watch in HD. They were quite impressed, not only by the crystal clear picture, but also the DD 5.1 surround sound. These were HD newbies, so I heard the usual, "...wow, you can see the blades of grass", etc. I like seeing the sparkling paint on the players helmets, and, oh yeah, the cheerleaders look pretty good in HD, too. ;)

I was concerned early on about the sound dropout too, but the presentation of the game was excellent! It was also interesting to see that many of the commercials are actually presented in HD/widescreen now.

Thanks Time Warner and FOX!

the game was on par for a fox broadcast - still not as good as cbs, but not bad..

jim

Those with the 8300, can anyone verify if the s-video/audio outputs are active? I received a call from TWC tech support that stated the outputs on my 8000 should be active. Of course they aren't, so I'm looking for others who may have active ports.

I recorded the Superbowl and preliminarily it looks nice. I was actually in Columbus watching it OTA and it looked good to me. I haven't had a chance to view the recording in it's entirety on my 8000 yet.

Thanks.

Troy

Originally posted by Troy LaMont
Those with the 8300, can anyone verify if the s-video/audio outputs are active? I received a call from TWC tech support that stated the outputs on my 8000 should be active. Of course they aren't, so I'm looking for others who may have active ports.

I recorded the Superbowl and it looks nice. I was actually in Columbus watching it OTA and it looked good to me. I haven't had a chance to view the recording on my 8000 yet.

Thanks.

Troy

I plugged in S-video jack just for a minute to see if it works and it did. I only use the digital audio inputs and those work fine. I was told by tech support that you can hook up multiple outputs simultaneously but I have not done this yet.

troy check out this link if you want to get on some discussion about the 8300.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=505238&goto=newpost

Thanks for checking MChuckp.

My dilemma now is do I try to upgrade to the 8300 going forward. Tech support basically stated that the only way I have to offload the HDD content I have now is via RF(coax)...yuck!!!!!

I may hold onto if for a while to see how everything plays out.

Troy

this is a little off topic.. but I have some gmail invites if anyone is interested

jim

gmail invites if anyone

?

Troy

gmail is googles 1gb free email service.. nice interface and it bascially gives you 1gb of online storage

Originally posted by jim tressler
gmail is googles 1gb free email service.. nice interface and it bascially gives you 1gb of online storage

What I like best about it besides the one gig storage is unlimited file size for attachments. Great for music and video stuff.

I also have 50 invites if anyone wants one. The are still in beta testing so you can't get an account unless you are invited.

PM me as well with your email address if you want one.

Sorry for the off topic everyone.

You sure about unlimited filesize for attachments? Last time I tried it appeared to be limited to 10mb.

Originally posted by Bubster
You sure about unlimited filesize for attachments? Last time I tried it appeared to be limited to 10mb.

Pr0n has to be under 10MBs. :)

Sorry, couldnt resist. :)

Originally posted by Dimitriz
Pr0n has to be under 10MBs. :)

Sorry, couldnt resist. :)

I apologize, I could have sworn it was unlimited. I looked it up and it is 10MB. I guess I just haven't sent anything quite that big.

Thanks for the correction.

Let me throw something in just to be on topic:

I HATE the cut off Fox bug in the corner!!!! I saw "24" last night which is my first FOX HD show I've seen. Really annoying stuff.

Originally posted by mchuckp
Let me throw something in just to be on topic:

I HATE the cut off Fox bug in the corner!!!!


I'm guessing that the local WXIX logo will be inserted into network Fox HD when Fox 19 News unveils its new graphics package in the next few weeks. It is up to them on how to insert the logo into network programming.

Originally posted by mchuckp
I HATE the cut off Fox bug in the corner!!!! I just pretend I'm watching "24" on the Creative Originals television network since it looks like a big CO on my set.

Is anyone else having a problem with FoxHD 919. When you tune to that station it just stays on the station you are currently on. Its like it doesnt exist anymore?

It's coming in alright OTA.

TWC 919 with House working fine for me.

BUT...

Anyone having trouble with 909? I had the same problem last week for NYPD Blue. The sound and picture are out of sync. I keep getting blank screens for a second. It's like there isn't enough bandwidth. This is only happening on 909. All other HD channels are fine.

Originally posted by tbenson81
Is anyone else having a problem with FoxHD 919. When you tune to that station it just stays on the station you are currently on. Its like it doesnt exist anymore?

No issues with me. Could it be a box issue? Maybe needs a quick reboot.

Is anyone else having a problem with FoxHD 919. When you tune to that station it just stays on the station you are currently on. Its like it doesnt exist anymore?

I had this same problem for just a brief period. It corrected itself by the time American Idol came on, but it switched my recording and viewing to Channel 03~ :(

Troy

Yeah - I think it was an issue with TW. 919 did not exist from 6:00 to 7:15. After that everything was perfect. I tuned to American Idol at 8 and everything looked great. DD 5.1 on that channel is awesome as well.

Originally posted by tbenson81
Yeah - I think it was an issue with TW. 919 did not exist from 6:00 to 7:15. After that everything was perfect. I tuned to American Idol at 8 and everything looked great. DD 5.1 on that channel is awesome as well.

So now we can hear crappy singing in DD 5.1? :)
Ohh boy.... lol

Checkin out Paula

shes showin lots o cleavage this year!

WCPO (ABC) in HD tonight had jittery picture for me. I believe this was an issue for everyone several days ago. Is anyone else still experiencing this?

Didnt watch ABC, but NBC was really bad with dropouts and Law and Order isnt even coming through in HD.

All other HD channels were coming in with no problems whatsoever tonight.

Both Lost and Alias had breakups, but think these were weather related.

Originally posted by dusterscott
WCPO (ABC) in HD tonight had jittery picture for me. I believe this was an issue for everyone several days ago. Is anyone else still experiencing this?

It's an issue that began a little over 2 weeks ago from WCPO-DT that seeems to be effecting only certian decoders. I don't think everyone was getting the problem. For instance, WCPO-DT during ABC HD feed the past 2 weeks is not "jittery" on my DTC-100, it's fine except for the reduced resolution(search this thread for "jaggies). On Zenith HDV420, however, I get the "jittery picture" the past 2+ weeks as I've previously reported(except during the State of Union address). It looks like what is actually happening is that roughly 1/4~1/2 of the video frames per second are not being properly decoded/displayed. These aren't "dropouts". The Audio continues just fine. The weather service on 9-2 is fine, so obviously The RF signal(OTA) is fine. Also, I don't get reception related "dropouts" from the local stations here, it just doesn't happen. It's not a "reception related" issue, OTA here at least, I can't comment on what cable viewers are experiencing.

As I've also reported previously, I've seen this issue before on occasion from other stations in the past : At times during ABC HD from WSYX-DT Columbus, Ohio, and during some non-Fox (local/syndicated)programming from WRGT-DT, FOX Dayton. It's just speculation, but I expect it may have something to do with either a). Some sort of encoder "setting" at the station(I was working with WRGT engineer on the issue at one point last summer, they were trying to adjust settings on their encoder to fix it -- I should note that I haven't noticed the issue from Either WRGT or WSYX lately), or b.) some sort of weird incompatibility between certian decoder+encoder software/firmware. There was a thread in hardware area last summer and a couple of folks reported seeing the same thing in other areas of the country with Zenith HDV420 decoder+sinclair owned or operated stations running 720p. With WCPO, this is the first time I've seen/heard of it happening with a non-sinclair owned or operated station. I had assumed that perhaps the HD/MPEGII encoders Sinclair was buying had an issue with HDV420's firmware, and potentially other receivers as well, but perhaps there is another explanation if the problem as I experienced it from other stations is the "same" or a related problem that is currently occuring at WCPO-DT - The "symptom" of the problem is the same here, that much is certian.

If I recall correctly, several weeks ago HDTivo owners were seeing much the same, or a similar problem from WCPO-DT, and I believe they contacted WCPO about it. Again, just speculation, but I suspect it may be possible that WCPO made "adjustments" to try to solve the issue(which may have been solved for HDtivo owners?), which are now effecting other receivers.

Personally, I've given up on trying to contact them - having not heard back from them since November(even though I've sent them a couple of things since then), and so I'm currently watching WKEF-DT Dayton for all ABC HD(and on occasion WSYX-DT ABC HD Columbus) until such time that WCPO-DT gets their problems straightened out.

I am with Nitewatchman on this, I switched to WKEF-DT for my HD ABC. It has the same quality, 1 sub-channel like WCPO. The picture looks great, everything is nice and curved, not jagged and crappy looking.

make sure you write to wcpo and tell them that you stopped watching.. also put something in there about telling advertisers the same - that will get their attention real quick

I just finished emailing them. Hopefully I'll get a response.

Just wish I was able to pull in either ABC channel. Due to the uniqueness of my location and the type of antenna I can use I get a very poor signal from WCPO and almost none at all from WKEF.

I love how everyone in this forum always talks about how crappy ABC is and supposedly every other HD channel is working perfectly. Well, NBC HD hasnt shown anything in 16:9 HD for 3 straight days now. I just flipped to see what was on and Joey in SD crap again. At least ABC sends their feed through in HD these days unlike NBC.

Well NBC 905 finally flipped the switch at 8:15. Its about time. Seems like there are other issues going on with this channel other than forgetting to flip the switch. One then 1st page of this board it is stated that HD keeps their HD feed on all the time so there should be no "switch". I dont know what the deal is

I'd rather watch SD than have a jerky picture in HD. Tonight, NBC has "ER" at 10:00 in HD, CBS has "CSI" and "Without a Trace", Fox has "OC" followed by "Point Pleasant". I'll be watching "CSI". Nothing in HD on ABC tonight.

Originally posted by tbenson81
I love how everyone in this forum always talks about how crappy ABC is and supposedly every other HD channel is working perfectly. Well, NBC HD hasnt shown anything in 16:9 HD for 3 straight days now. I just flipped to see what was on and Joey in SD crap again. At least ABC sends their feed through in HD these days unlike NBC.

Is NBC supposed to be having these shows in HD or these shows aren't in HD? I can't think of any shows I personally watch on NBC so I wouldn't know.

Just curious.

I've done a little more checking into my position in relation to the Cincy towers and I'm still confused as to why I have trouble tuning in WCPO-DT. From the positions of the towers at their BASE I have found that I am:

200' above WSTR with nothing in the way terrain wise.

24' above WKRC with a max 164.5' terrain height between me and the tower base.

33' below WXIX with a max 145' terrain height between.

114' above WLWT with a max 155' terrain height beween.

112' above WCPO with a max 166' terrain height between.

Remember these are to the base of the towers, so when I take the antenna heights into account I should have line of sight to them all. I get a pretty good signal on my tv's signal meter(low 70's to almost 80) for them all but WCPO. The only other difference I know of is that WCPO is broadcasting on a VHF channel. I'm not well versed in the preformance of the Phillips Mant 910 antenna (Terk TV42 type). Anyone have any input?

Originally posted by tbenson81
I love how everyone in this forum always talks about how crappy ABC is and supposedly every other HD channel is working perfectly. Well, NBC HD hasnt shown anything in 16:9 HD for 3 straight days now.

I don't think you'll find many complaints about WCPO-DT prior to last summer ... They are indeed, very good about switching to the ABC HD feed and have been for the last 3 1/2 years I've been watching them .... In fact, prior to their studio move last summer, I would have called them among the best stations in the area for providing "quality" HD service ...

EVERY station in the area has had it's problems(some problems have been "addressed" much more quickly than others for "various reasons"), and you'll find reports on those problems in posts either here, or in older Cincinnati/Cincinnati related threads in the AVS archives all the way back to 99~2000 ....

Originally posted by tbenson81
Well, NBC HD hasnt shown anything in 16:9 HD for 3 straight days now.

Are you sure about that? What about the Tonight show last night?

There are several threads in the programming area which seem to indicate that NBC has had some issues on the network level with the HD feed during certian shows recently, especially the East Coast feed which is what our local NBC affiliate(s) use. That may have been what you've been experienceing. Here's the most recent of one of those threads :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=507686

Originally posted by dusterscott
Tonight, NBC has "ER" at 10:00 in HD, CBS has "CSI" and "Without a Trace", Fox has "OC" followed by "Point Pleasant". I'll be watching "CSI". Nothing in HD on ABC tonight.


Don't forget the HD movie on WB (WSTR-DT/WBDT-DT) -- It was OAR and 2.35:1 AR when I checked it ... Also, WCVN-DT/WCET-DT/WPTD-DT offers PBS HD/Widescreen programming every night .... Tonight show is HD from WLWT-DT/WDTN-DT every night as well ...

Originally posted by mchuckp

Is NBC supposed to be having these shows in HD or these shows aren't in HD? I can't think of any shows I personally watch on NBC so I wouldn't know.

Just curious.


NBC offers many programs in HD. In HD from NBC+WLWT-DT/WDTN-DT , I personally regularly watch "American Dreams", "ER" and occasionally Tonight show. I haven't had much problems getting HD for those from WLWT-DT over the past ~2.5 years or more .... Then there was Daytona 500 HD last year(most Nascar races NBC carried were sent as widescreen SD upconverts), 2002+2004 HD HD Olympics, 2002~2004 triple crown/etc/etc.

See AVSforum Programming sypnosis here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=164671

for more details concerning available HD programming ...

-------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by cokebear

Anyone have any input?


I'm pretty clueless concerning what may be causing your problem, given your previous "experiments" with rabbit ears/etc for WCPO, and our previous discussions. Just some "stabs in the dark" follow FWIW :

Unless for some reason your internal tuner has very poor performance on VHF as compared to UHF for some odd reason(or if there is something wrong with it), or severe impulse noise issues(which would effect lo-VHF ch 2-6 moreso than hi-vhf ch 7-13 or UHF) are an issue for you, If you're getting the other Cincinnati stations(especially WSTR which is running low power for their UHF channel 33), I'd think you should be getting WCPO-DT in like gangbusters.

And, the analog stations 5,9,12 should be coming in somewhere between "crystal clear" and a "good signal but with ghosting - (Not "snowy" or plagued with interference) as well. For that matter, you should be seeing 2+7 Dayton to some extent, even with the issues with signal bloackage you are having with Dayton, especially If you are seeing anything on analog 40(WRCX-LP 40 Dayton - low power station) as you reported in a previous post. Since I believe you had said previously that 5,9+12 are pretty "snowy" looking, unless that's changed with the new antenna, for some reason it just seems like you aren't getting enough signal on VHF, which really shouldn't be happening from your distance.

I might think you just need to try to find a "sweet spot" for the antenna(sometimes it's easy to find a "dead spot" for a certian station, a foot or 2 left or right or back or forth can make a BIG difference), but I'm not sure that's the problem since you don't seem to be getting good results from ANY VHF station in the area, no matter what you do.

Just a thought ...although I can't think of anything you might have in the line that would be "blocking" VHF frequencies(but who knows) ... Besides the diplexers, what else do you have between the antenna+TV besides Coax ? From what you've described previously concerning your VHF reception, given your location, It almost seems as if you have the antenna hooked up to a "UHF only" input on a VHF/UHF band seperator ...

I wouldn't think you should be having any "serious enough" terrain issues to cause any difficulties for the Cincinnati stations(terrain issues are more of a problem for UHF reception than is the case for VHF anyway) from your location, however you might want to check the elevation info you are using for the various tower locations. Knowing where you are located(for instance, between I-75 and Towne Mall elevation ranges between 705FT~737FT above sea level - ASL), you're not 200 feet "above" the hill in Finneytown WSTR's tower sits on, it's 913 FT ASL at the base of the tower, WXIX tower is the lowest "tower base" in Cincinnati at 684FT ASL ...

In any event, it isn't the height of the base of the tower that is important, it's the height of the transmitting antenna(ASL, or HAAT/etc), and the curvature of Earth+any terrain in between that might cause any issues that is important ... WCVN digital antenna is at 1199FT ASL in N KY(the farthest station from you), the rest in Cincinnati area digital stations transmitting antennas are locatied between about 1600FT and 1900 FT ASL ... WCPO-DT's transmitting antenna, according to FCC info is at 1579 FT Above Sea level .... You can find precise info for the other stations here(be sure to choose the "detailed info+CDBS links" selection for your query in order to get the fully "detailed" information :

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html

Attached is a elevation profile for the "direct" signal path from about 1/2 way "back" Along Village dr.(at left), to WCPO's Tower(at right). I've drawn in the approximate height of WCPO-DT's antenna and connected the two points with the red line ... The lower red line I drew in is an rough approximation of the effect the curvature of the earth would have on the "actual" "line of sight" path from ~27 miles ... While it looks like there may be a slight terrain issue for you, It certianly shouldn't be a problem especially given the lower VHF frequency/longer wavelentgh involved and that you aren't having any problems with the Cincy area UHF's ... The terrain situation from my location is defintely worse than this -- and I can get WCPO-DT just fine with rabbit ears Indoors placed near a 2nd story window from 32 miles, and the analogs 5,9,12 are pretty much crystal clear, much better PQ from even the analogs than what you'd see PQ wise on Cable or satellite, SD analog or digital ...

I would also stress that although this sort of elevation profile can serve as a good "tool", The TV signals(and especially on VHF) don't actually quite travel in such a "straight line" fashion" ... as the signals in the airwaves(well, they're photons actually if you want to get down to the "Real" nitty gritty of it) propagate out from the tower, they actually tend to "bend" a little and "hug" the earth. Optical "line of sight", and RF(radio frequency) "line of sight" are actually 2 different things, although the higher the frequency involved(such as High UHF channels) the "closer" they are to being the same. Due to a bit of "refraction" of signals by the air that Allways happens in lower layers of the atmosphere, radio signals via VHF/UHF "RF line of sight("space wave") propagation do travel a bit farther beyond curvature of earth(the WCPO-DT signals would "run into" curvature of earth at about 55 miles distant from their tower), or any "bumps"(terrain) than is the case with "optical" line of sight ...Also -- The lower the frequency, the longer the wavelength, and the bit "farther" the signal can "bend" around the curvature of earth or terrain issues ... That's not to say if you had a 600 foot hill near you that you are living on the wrong side of, that you would be able to reliably receive a station with a 400FT tower broadcasting from the other side of the hill .... If it was VHF however(probably not UHF), it's a good possibility that you would see something from it ...

Its just annoying to watch something in HD for 10 minutes, have it switch to SD for the next 10, switch back and the next show in SD completely.
You are right though, I assumed it was a local issue but I guess this is actually a national problem. That is a lot better because I am sure a lot more time, energy and resources will be devoted to rectifying it in a timely fashion. Like everyone has stated, there really isnt anything good on NBC anyways - just the Apprentice but thats not even broadcasted in HD.

Nitewatchman - you are correct though, I do remember seeing that The Tonight Show feed was ok but this has been happening consistently for over a week now and especially in the past fews days. It feels like ABC all over again right when they moved their master control.

Originally posted by tbenson81
Like everyone has stated, there really isnt anything good on NBC anyways


Where did "everyone" say that ..... :rolleyes:

All of the Cincinnati/Dayton Stations have sent in their first round DTV channel election forms to FCC. ALL of the Cincinnati stations made a channel election choice in the first round. The following list, taken directly from the forms they sent FCC, shows the channels the Cincinnati area stations have chosen to use for their digital station after analog shut off occurs :

Cincinnati Area:

WCPO - 10
WKRC - 12
WCVN - 24
WPTO - 28
WXIX - 29
WSTR - 33
WCET - 34
WLWT - 35
WKOI - 39

Dayton:

WPTD - 16
WKEF - 22
WBDT - 26
WHIO - 41
WRGT- 45
WDTN - 50


Here is a list of the first round channel election choices for some of the stations nearby markets, mostly these are stations which could be or could have been co-channel interference issues for some locations within Cincinnati coverage area, but I included info on a few others as well:

Columbus
------------
WCMH - 14
WSYX - NOTE Wants 36 via NCA, if not 2nd choice is 13
WBNS - 10
WTTE - NOTE Wants 28 via NCA, if not 2nd choice is 36
WOSU - 38

Lexington/Morehead:
---------------------------
WKYT 13
WDKY 4
WLEX 39
WKMR 15

Indy/Bloomington+Central Indiana
--------

WRTV - 25
WISH - 9
WTHR - 13
WTTV - 48
WHMB - 16
WTTK - 29
WXIN - 45
WCLJ - 42

Lima, OH
----
WLIO - 8

Louisville, KY
-----------
WHAS 11
WLKY 26
WKMJ 38
WAVE 47
WDRB 49

My wife and I enjoy L&O:SVU starring the lovely Mariska Hargetay (daughter of Jayne Mansfield) and ER is still capable of producing some excellent moments...some of the scenes in HD are almost too much to take. We can take or leave Leno but the show is one of the best HD productions anywhere.

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
The following list, taken directly from the forms they sent FCC, shows the channels the Cincinnati area stations have chosen to use for their digital station after analog shut off occurs :

Cincinnati Area:

WCPO - 10
WKRC - 12
WCVN - 24
WPTO - 28
WXIX - 29
WSTR - 33
WCET - 34
WLWT - 35
WKOI - 39

Please excuse me for being a dunce, but does this mean then that WCPO will start referring itself to Channel 10 whenever the analog shutoff occurs? WXIX will call itself Fox29?

If not, it wouldn't make sense that you would find WXIX by tuning to frequency 29, but they are "Channel" 19. Or am I just showing my ignorance of the subject?

Nightwatchman, how are you generating these elevation profiles between the towers and OTA's? I would be interested in taking a look at the profiles between my OTA and the various Cincinnati towers.

Originally posted by luebster
does this mean then that WCPO will start referring itself to Channel 10 whenever the analog shutoff occurs? WXIX will call itself Fox29?

If not, it wouldn't make sense that you would find WXIX by tuning to frequency 29, but they are "Channel" 19.

The digital stations will use channel remapping via PSIP just as they do now. The same digital+analog station(WCPO 9, WCPO-DT 10) can't actually transmit on the same channel. It will still be called Fox19, and WCPO 9, even though that isn't the actual channel(frequency) they are sending their signal on. In fact, it's actually a requirement now that stations "remap" to their analog channel number, now and even after the analog stations are gone. That's will be case after analog shutoff for the CURRENT stations that are on the air. Any NEW digital stations (say if we ever get a PAX 23 in Cincinnati) however will use the actual channel used.

Stations wanted this ability to "show up" on their viewers screen as a "remapped channel number" in order to keep their existing channel branding, regardless of where their signal is on the dial, and the "actual" frequency your tuner tunes to when you tune to say, 19.1 currently.(it's actually 29). Channel remapping is also used to "supposedly" eliminate viewer confusion, so you'll "tune" to the channel where you are used to their analog station being. However, IMO, as it turns out in some cases you'll have to know where the station is actually transmitting it's signal to make decisions about VHF/UHF antennas/etc.

Here are the current, ACTUAL channels the Cincinnati Digital stations actually transmit their signals on :

WCPO-DT 10 (remaps to 9-x)
WPTO-DT 28 (remaps to 14-x)
WCVN-DT 24 (remaps to 54-x)
WXIX-DT 29 (remaps to 19-x)
WKRC-DT 31 (remaps to 12-x)
WSTR-DT 33 (remaps to 64-x)
WCET-DT 34 (remaps to 48-x)
WLWT-DT 35 (remaps to 5-x)
WKOI-DT 39 (remaps to 43-x)

Originally posted by dusterscott
Nightwatchman, how are you generating these elevation profiles between the towers and OTA's?

With Delorme's "Topo USA" software and info on tower location from FCC site. It doesn't take curvature of earth into account. Figure about a 200~300Ft "drop" every 30 miles for a rough estimate of the effect of curvature of Earth ...

it looks like wkrc is the only one that wants to move the digital channel to match its analog channel

D* HD TiVO problems with WCPO
There were several posts from HD TiVO users about dropouts on WCPO-DT. In my home I have three ATSC tuners, one in a Sony TV and two in the HD TiVO. The ATSC tuner in the Sony TV was rock solid with WCPO but the tuner in the HD TiVO had dropouts.


I contacted D* and explained the situation - they sent me a new HD TiVO. I have great news to report - no more problems with WCPO! There must have been some sensitivity issue with the ATSC VHF tuner in the HD TiVO.

You'll have to get to a level two tech to explain this - Tell them you have another TV in your house that doesn't have any problems with WCPO-DT.

D* will FedEx you a brand new box

good luck!
gruber

Lately I havent been able to get the WB64 in HD on my HD Tivo (OTA). I used to get it with no problems...Anyone have any ideas?

Originally posted by Gruber
D* HD TiVO problems with WCPO
There were several posts from HD TiVO users about dropouts on WCPO-DT. In my home I have three ATSC tuners, one in a Sony TV and two in the HD TiVO. The ATSC tuner in the Sony TV was rock solid with WCPO but the tuner in the HD TiVO had dropouts.


I contacted D* and explained the situation - they sent me a new HD TiVO. I have great news to report - no more problems with WCPO! There must have been some sensitivity issue with the ATSC VHF tuner in the HD TiVO.

You'll have to get to a level two tech to explain this - Tell them you have another TV in your house that doesn't have any problems with WCPO-DT.

D* will FedEx you a brand new box

good luck!
gruber
No way! I'm calling just as soon as I get home tonight!

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
The digital stations will use channel remapping via PSIP just as they do now. The same digital+analog station(WCPO 9, WCPO-DT 10) can't actually transmit on the same channel. It will still be called Fox19, and WCPO 9, even though that isn't the actual channel(frequency) they are sending their signal on. In fact, it's actually a requirement now that stations "remap" to their analog channel number, now and even after the analog stations are gone. That's will be case after analog shutoff for the CURRENT stations that are on the air. Any NEW digital stations (say if we ever get a PAX 23 in Cincinnati) however will use the actual channel used.

Stations wanted this ability to "show up" on their viewers screen as a "remapped channel number" in order to keep their existing channel branding, regardless of where their signal is on the dial, and the "actual" frequency your tuner tunes to when you tune to say, 19.1 currently.(it's actually 29). Channel remapping is also used to "supposedly" eliminate viewer confusion, so you'll "tune" to the channel where you are used to their analog station being. However, IMO, as it turns out in some cases you'll have to know where the station is actually transmitting it's signal to make decisions about VHF/UHF antennas/etc.

Here are the current, ACTUAL channels the Cincinnati Digital stations actually transmit their signals on :

WCPO-DT 10 (remaps to 9-x)
WPTO-DT 28 (remaps to 14-x)
WCVN-DT 24 (remaps to 54-x)
WXIX-DT 29 (remaps to 19-x)
WKRC-DT 31 (remaps to 12-x)
WSTR-DT 33 (remaps to 64-x)
WCET-DT 34 (remaps to 48-x)
WLWT-DT 35 (remaps to 5-x)
WKOI-DT 39 (remaps to 43-x)
Thank you, Jeff. You are far and away one of the most helpful posters in this thread.

Originally posted by noysboy
Lately I havent been able to get the WB64 in HD on my HD Tivo (OTA). I used to get it with no problems...Anyone have any ideas?

Have you done a channel rescan lately? If not You might want to try that as they(and other stations as well) changed some of the PSIP info they are sending recently to comply with new FCC rules, and in some cases some receivers may need to do a channel rescan in order to see them again ...

Well, for the first time in almost 3 weeks I'm no longer getting dropped frames with Zenith Receiver during ABC HD feed from WCPO-DT between 8~8:30pm tonight. Looks like they might have fixed it(I hope so anyway). The "jaggies" are still there however.

Off topic, but I'm also noticing WBQC 38(analog) must be having problems with the sat feed or something, as there are occasional "pauses" during "Enterprise" tonight ...

Just wondering how you were getting the elevation info into the software Jeff. That's the program(vers. 4.0) I was using to come to some of my conclusions but couldn't figure out how to account for the elevation of the antennas so I made an educated(halfa$$ed) guess a it. My acutual position is at N39deg 29.698' W84deg 19.598 and I am on the second floor so you can add about 12' to the elevation here too. I have always noticed just how bad the area is represented in the software too they have Villsge Dr. all wrong.

There isn't anything in the line going to my tuner except for the diplexers and a wall plate where the coax is connected. Right now I am moving the antenna input over to the antenna B input on the back of the tv, just to see if there is any difference at all. I have the option in my menu to have 1) Connect Cable to antenna A and air to antenna B 2)connect cable to antenna A only 3) connect air to antenna A only. This made no difference at all. I am in the dark as to how this thing is actually wired up on the inside.

I do notice one thing that may point to a problem, on all the VHF channels up to CH12 there IS snow in the picture, from 14 on up on UHF ghosting only. I do get some kind of picture on all the Dayton analog stations though not very good. And I can at least get some kind of sound and picture from ch 40.

There is a possibility that I have a "dead spot" where my antenna is placed unfortunately the only direction I can really move it is closer to the building by about a foot or so. These balconys are not all that big(4' by 8' roughly) and in odrer to have enough room for a table and chairs and a couple of plants or a grill.. well you get the picture. So maybe tomorrow I'll mess around with an extra length of coax I have and try a few different positions with the antenna. I am sure you know more about my antenna than I do so have you noticed anything in the specs that would make it better for UHF than VHF? I certainly don't see anything that would suggest that.

Hey once again Jeff thanks for ALL the help you and Doc and some of the others dish out on the board. You guys make this one of the best forums I;ve seen. Let you know how the experiment goes.

The elevation info/location info for the towers I get from info on FCC site.

For instance, here : http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=WCPO&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

It shows WCPO tower at 39 07 30N 84 29 56W - Plotting that spot on Topo USA(I'm using 3.0 btw - you can change the lat/long "readings" to deg min sec in the "preference:Units:coords" tab/button, and also the "preference:units:"datum" tab/button to NAD27 data as that is what FCC site uses ), it shows the ground elevation at base of their tower at 827FT ASL. I actually have a "mapfolio" set up with many towers in the area already "plotted".

FCC also shows WCPO-DT transmitting antenna height at :

Antenna Height Above Average Terrain: 272. meters HAAT
Antenna Height Above Mean Sea Level: 481. meters AMSL
Antenna Height Above Ground Level: 224. meters AGL

For Topo USA to be "useful" here, I'm just roughly measuring the scale on the elevation profiles and drawing in the tower/antenna height with image editing software.

Since I am most interested in "height in feet above mean sea level" in order to know how high to draw the "tower" in .. In this case for WCPO-DT antenna, We take 481 meters x 3.28084 to convert into feet, and we see WCPO-DT's transmitting antenna should be located at 1578FT ASL. I *should* also be able to take the "ground" elevation at 827 FT, and add the specified height above ground level (AGL) (224meters x 3.28084 = 734.9FT + 827 Ft = 1561FT) and it should come up to close to the same number as the number we got for ASL .. Well, it should probably be a little closer than that, but you get the idea ... Hard to say where this particular bit of 17FT "discrepency" lies, with the USGS data, the software(that's my best guess in this case), the "readings" the station took to send to FCC/etc ... ... I certianly know that Some(but not much) of the info in FCC site is wrong ... For instance, for WCET-DT current STA, FCC info shows their antenna height at 819 METERS(2,687 ft) above sea level ... That would require WLWT/WCET tower to be almost 1,000Feet higher than it actually is .... I think the WCET-DT antenna is actually more like 819 feet or so above GROUND level at the tower site ...

Originally posted by cokebear
I do notice one thing that may point to a problem, on all the VHF channels up to CH12 there IS snow in the picture, from 14 on up on UHF ghosting only. I do get some kind of picture on all the Dayton analog stations though not very good. And I can at least get some kind of sound and picture from ch 40.

..... have you noticed anything in the specs that would make it better for UHF than VHF? I certainly don't see anything that would suggest that.



I wonder what you would get on VHF if you hooked your antenna up to a DIFFERENT TV or VCR? Perhaps that might tell you something ... Or, you could try hooking up your E* sat receiver, to your TV's antenna input and use the RF modulator on the receiver and check and see what that looks like on channel 3 or 4(whichever one it is set for) .... If THAT looks "snowy"/etc and not "crystal clear", then I'd think you pretty much know for sure it's something inside the set that is not quite working right on VHF ...

The VHF/UHF "portions" of the NTSC+ATSC tuners in modern sets are very "integrated" these days, not like "way back when" you actually had seperate VHF+UHF mechanical tuners with "click stop" knobs and seperate VHF/UHF inputs on the back of the set .... but it certianly sounds like to me it's a good possibility that the internal tuners(both the NTSC+ATSC tuners)on your set don't seem to be doing a very good job on VHF for some reason .... If that's the case, you are probably going to have to go to the retailer/manufacturer(hoping your set is still under warranty) -- I'd guess that It's possible that it could be something as 'simple" as a cold solder joint(i.e. "bad connection"), if so, that's probably something you would need a qualified repair person to work on ....

Perhaps you can also find out if there are others who have the set you are using which are also having problems with getting good VHF reception ...

I don't know for sure, and although I didn't see any real "specs" that said one way or the other, I thought that antenna was for VHF+UHF ... Sure it isn't the greatest of antennas, but I'd think it should work at least as good as rabbit ears for VHF -- And, Really, you should be getting pretty much "snow free" pics on the analog VHF's with a coat hanger from your location - especially from a 2nd story balcony facing South ... and, since you were having "snow" with VHF rabbit ears as well(but are getting good UHF reception), I really wouldn't think it's the antenna .....

Unless I missed it in this thread (I was in Detroit, this week) it appears WLWT-DT has a new piece of gear. Rather LARGE 5 bug inserted over the top of the NBC peacock bug for the first few seconds of the first three segments of "Medical Investigators." To my knowledge, WLWT hasn't previously inserted a transparent bug on 35 during NBC-HD programming.

I wonder what you would get on VHF if you hooked your antenna up to a DIFFERENT TV or VCR? Perhaps that might tell you something

Well that was a very good idea. Grabbed an old 13" from the bedroom and hooked it up to the antenna exactly the same way. Guess what??? I have the same snowy pictures in the VHF range. There was snow on a couple of low power stations in the UHF range too 38 and I forget which other channel. I'm going to reconnect it to the BIG tv in a little bit and use my other piece of coax to dance around outside but I'm starting to wonder if I need some type of filter on the line to get rid of this interference? Although I tried the FM trap earlier and that did not seem to help. Well lets hope the dance will allow me to find I have a dead spot and this isn't an interference issue from who knows where.

Doc,

I hadn't noticed that yet on WLWT-DT ... I only caught portions of HD "ER" on Thursday night, but I didn't see it then.

Cokebear,

Well, I guess it's a good thing that it's not a problem with the set ... If it's just "clean snow" on analog signals , that's not interference -- It's just a weak signal. I guess you just need a better VHF antenna if finding a "sweet spot" for it doesn't work. It just seems odd to me that you would be getting snowy pics on VHF analogs 5,9,12 but not on full power analogs like 19, 48, 64. If your getting snow on 38 and other low power stations however that makes perfect sense ....

If it's "static"/"sparkles" being ADDED to the picture(they'll usually "scroll" on the screen) instead of clean snow, however, it's impulse noise interference(you'll get more of it on lower VHF channels such as 2+5 than would be the case with higher frequencies), and unfortunetly there isn't a filter you can add for that .. In this case you would have to eliminate the source of the interference itself, which may not be possible as it might be coming from powerlines, ballasts on flouresent lights, nearby "commercial" lighting/etc/etc ... It does occur to me that given the area that you are in there may be other nearby sources of RFI which could be causing problems as well ... If I recall correctly from those screenshots you posted on Zekyl's board from your "rabbit ears", however, I don't think it looked like you were having much problems with impulse noise interference, or for the most part too much problem with interference issues in general, it just looked like you weren't getting enough signal from the VHF stations ...

I know all that is not much help ... I'm afraid I'm all out of ideas ...

If it's "static"/"sparkles" being ADDED to the picture(they'll usually "scroll" on the screen) instead of clean snow, however, it's impulse noise interference(you'll get more of it on lower VHF channels such as 2+5

OK I thought I mentioned in an earlier post that they do in fact scroll on the screen. It is also in a very regular pattern. It looks as if straight lines of something scroll across the screen.I tried like heck to get a picture that shows it but couldn't. 2 is by far the worst, 5 and 7 are very similar, 9 is a little better and 12 is almost a clean pic. It definately gets better as the frequency goes up. They closest pic I could find looks a little more like this.

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/interference/filteredps/filt.jpg

And on the Kyes site it says this is from computer type equipment but even after unplugging everything in the house I still have the intererence.

OMG!!! I tried unhooking the coax from the satellite, the one that would deliver power to the antenna to see if it was injecting the interference. I found out that there isn't a useable signal without the power. A very few channels come in but the signal must be almost non-existant. Not a single HD channel goes over 4 on the signal meter and I'm sure that's as low as it will go with a channel programed.

I went outside and took a good look around. I'm not sure what those antennas on top of that CSN/Progressive building are for but they are fairly close(3-400 yards), there is a set of high power lines across the highway (4-500) yards out). There are some outdoor lights around the building but it's daytime and they aren't on. The only other thing around is the big box for the telephone system to the apartment complex and thats within about 50 yards. So I'm going out to do the dance now anyway. I don't really expect it to work but I'm going to exhaust every possibility.

I also went so far as to e-mail Hitachi asking for any help they could give me, see if there was a possible firmware update or whatever.

One last thought, since there was no usable signal without power, is it possable that those little DBS in line amps would be clean enough to consider adding one?

Man I'm sitting here watching the Wisc. vs. Ill. game on WKRC and just realized how much better it looks than the UK games that get shown on WSTR. I mean yeah they are both SD but the difference is staggering. On WSTR I get a weird elongating effect of the zebras shirts almost looks like a reflection in water. I guess the JP crew that does the SEC games needs some new equipment.

Originally posted by cokebear
OK I thought I mentioned in an earlier post that they do in fact scroll on the screen. It is also in a very regular pattern. It looks as if straight lines of something scroll across the screen.I tried like heck to get a picture that shows it but couldn't. 2 is by far the worst, 5 and 7 are very similar, 9 is a little better and 12 is almost a clean pic. It definately gets better as the frequency goes up. They closest pic I could find looks a little more like this.

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/interference/filteredps/filt.jpg

And on the Kyes site it says this is from computer type equipment but even after unplugging everything in the house I still have the intererence.

I went outside and took a good look around. I'm not sure what those antennas on top of that CSN/Progressive building are for but they are fairly close(3-400 yards), there is a set of high power lines across the highway (4-500) yards out).


Whatever the antennas are on CSN they shouldn't be a problem. The power lines might be another matter ... Sounds like You are getting the sort of Impulse noise/"sparkles" RFI type interference issue I was referring to. I'm "sort of grouping" a number of things described on KYES site toghether, as they are all the same "general" type of interference+produce the same general results/symptoms. Lightning is also a natural source of this sort of interference. Might be very difficult to detirmine where it's coming from. Might be from something a neighbor is using. Might be from the power lines. I'll try to check the AM radio and see what I get the next time I'm out that way ...

On KYES, the pic you had link to is from this section on "filtered switchmode interference" :

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/interference/filteredps/fpsint.html

I would say it is also just as possible however that you are either or also getting the "sort" of interference described in this section :

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/interference/power/power.html

If it is coming from power lines you might be able to contact Cinergy+ they might be able to fix it.(it has worked for me before....). However, hard to say, but I sort of doubt it's coming from those lines that are 4-500 yards away, probably coming from something closer. If it's power line issue, a lot of the times it generally will vary a bit and get better when there is a lot of moisture in the air. Note that "Neon signs, florescent lamps, and other electrical devices can also cause this kind of static", another reason why it may be difficult to eliminate the source of this type of interference. "lightning" is of course the only source of this type of interference that absolutely nothing can actually be done ......

And or this "Lighting and other unfiltered Power Supply Interference" :

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/interference/unfilteredps/psint.html

This is the pic for that one(2nd from left in his examples):

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/interference/unfilteredps/ch2trkltint.jpg


Originally posted by cokebear
One last thought, since there was no usable signal without power, is it possable that those little DBS in line amps would be clean enough to consider adding one?

probably Not a good idea to add another amp, you've already got one in the antenna. Preamps can be easily overloaded, and whether it "overloads" or not, with 2 amps the end result would probably be a increase in noise caused by the amp(s) itself .In other words, it'll probably hurt more than it helps ..

Remember that a amp can't actually "boost" on increase the amount of signal the antenna is getting, it can only mostly #1). reduce losses from long feedline runs/splitting the signal, and #2). With high quality/low noise preamps, it can lower the overall noise figure of the antenna/receiver "system" .... The amp in your MANT911 probably isn't helping much ,if any where the latter is concerned, but of course I don't think there is a way you can use the antenna w/o the amp, if the amp doesn't get power, as you discovered the antenna isn't going to work as well as what a unamplified version of it would ... It's just a guess, but the amp you've got "in the antenna" probably isn't hurting you much, if any since you don't seem to be getting any WORSE results than you were with unamplified rabbit ears .... it Probably helps with the insertion loss from the Diplexers though ...

On KYES, the pic you had link to is from this section on "filtered switchmode interference" :
Yes. What I'm seeing definately looks more like this picture if the lines were closer together and in more of a solid line. Those power lines are a bit farther away than I would have though I would be able to get interference from but I'm still ignorant about those kinds of things. The power lines for the apartment complex are just about all underground. Don't know what you are going to check with an AM radio but I'm greatful if you can find out anything from it. I'm sure if I read completely trough the KYES site I'd figure it out.

Not a good idea to add another amp
Did not think so considering what I've learned over the past few months from you guys. It was just a shot in the dark.

It's just a guess, but the amp you've got "in the antenna" probably isn't hurting you much, since you don't seem to be getting any WORSE results than you were with unamplified rabbit ears
Not as far as the signal meter on the TV is concerned. The biggest plus is that I don't have to get up and fiddle with it when I change channels. Plus I can sometimes get a relatively droppout free signal from WCPO.

I really hate to be continually asking about this but I am so limited to what I can do as far as putting up an antenna here. The real bummer is it's all for one channel now. I just really want to be able to see MNF in HD next year, i think I only watched one MNF game this year(the one the Bengals were on).

Doesn't it figure. I complain about the PQ on the UK games and this week it looks better. Still seeing the effect on the Ref's shirts though.

Originally posted by DrDon
Unless I missed it in this thread (I was in Detroit, this week) it appears WLWT-DT has a new piece of gear.

Whoa! It looks like they might have some more new gear as well ... I was channel surfing through the ANALOGS at 7:30pm, and WLWT was running a crawl across the screen that said "This program is being shown in HD on WLWT-DT" ...... Just about fell out of my chair ..

Well, I checked it, and sure enough the (syndicated?) show that is currently airing called "The Remarkable Journey" is HD on WLWT-DT ...

Yeah, just checked it out myself. It doesn't show HD programming in the guide on my receiver, but select the station, and it's in HD!

Yeah, just checked it out myself. It doesn't show HD programming in the guide on my receiver, but select the station, and it's in HD!

Originally posted by cokebear
Don't know what you are going to check with an AM radio but I'm greatful if you can find out anything from it.

You can "hear" "power line noise" and "impulse noise" interference on AM radio as static/buzzes/etc .... If it's significantly bad in the area you are talking about as you are driving along next to the utility lines, it's a "clue" that that might be part of your problem .... next time you take a drive, tune your car radio to AM and a weak station and listen to how the background noise "changes" when you go through intersections with a lot of utility lines/etc about ....

Well, what's wrong with 19.1. I have no signal during the Bud Shootout. Was there at the start.

Rob

Picture is fine here, audio is randomly 'chirping' though.

Well I just needed to budge the antenna. Still don't have it mounted outside yet.
Thanks,
Rob

Another thing you've probably covered in my absence: WKEF is FINALLY remapping to 22-1. TiVo users should be thrilled. Although I know they missed the PSIP deadline by at LEAST a week. Was still 51-1 when I ventured north.

Doc

Does anyone know a good contact number for NBC? I was watching Law & Order this past Wednesday and it wasn't widescreen. I called their news desk and asked them to inform the control room, but they never resolved the issue.

Oliwa,

There are several threads in the programming area which seem to indicate that NBC has had some issues on the network level with the HD feed during certian shows recently, especially the East Coast feed which is what our local NBC affiliate(s) use. We discussed this a couple of pages back. Here's the most recent of one of those threads from programming area, concerning no HD fromNBC HD east coast feed for L&O last week :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=507686

Watching the Daytona Qualifying on Fox and during the break WXIX was advertising the UC game this week against Southern Miss and the HD logo was on the screen. I can't wait to see this, finally some local HD! Also, WXIX fixed their PSIP and program data, so I now have 19.01 WXIX DT, yes!

Originally posted by JunkyardDogg
Watching the Daytona Qualifying on Fox and during the break WXIX was advertising the UC game this week against Southern Miss and the HD logo was on the screen. I can't wait to see this, finally some local HD! Also, WXIX fixed their PSIP and program data, so I now have 19.01 WXIX DT, yes!

I saw the same thing. What a big step for a regional broadcast to be in HD.

I know this is a little off topic but it sure would have been nice to have the Pro Bowl in HD yesterday. Unfortunately it was broadcast on ESPN HD in SD. I'm really looking forward to the Daytona 500. Does anyone know whether Survivor will be in HD or not?

good news about wxix and the cats.. but I am skeptical as they said the samething for the miami - uc game at us bank arena...

survivor is sd only.. there is a thread somewhere over in hd programming talking about the cost on a mobile production.. espn and the probowl is simply a cost issue.. too much $$ to get an hd truck over there.. i wish they would do something as the probowl always looks like crap becasue of the old equiptment.

Survivor won't be. And it'll probably be a chunk of time before anyone wants to build a production truck dedicated to Hawaii or take the time to float one over and back <g>. But it'll happen.

Back to Survivor: I posted notes from interviews I've done with Burnett and Probst. At the time, Burnett mentioned that the flyover and bumper shots might be in HD (probably means doing the rest of the production in 16:9 480 like Fox used to do (and still does, somewhat). But Probst said we really don't want to see the "dailies" in HD. Especially after those people have been out there a couple of weeks. He said "it's not pretty."

lol.. so doc.. you working out of detriot now?

i just recieved an email from Rick Oliver at Fox19 - he did confirm the bearcats will be in High Def against Souther Miss!!! Sweet!

jim

Jim..

Not yet. But I promise to update the Location line in my profile the minute that changes. :)

Last night while watching Simpsons on FOX HD, I noticed a slight jitter to the picture. Every few seconds it would just do a quick little jitter that was a tad annoying. I tried other channels and all was fine so I assumed it must have just been FOX HD.

Did anyone else notice this? I use Time Warner Cable. I've never noticed it on any other night so I hope it was just a one time issue. I guess I will see during 24 tonight.

Originally posted by mchuckp
Last night while watching Simpsons on FOX HD, I noticed a slight jitter to the picture. Every few seconds it would just do a quick little jitter that was a tad annoying. I tried other channels and all was fine so I assumed it must have just been FOX HD.

Did anyone else notice this? I use Time Warner Cable. I've never noticed it on any other night so I hope it was just a one time issue. I guess I will see during 24 tonight.

Are the Simpsons in HD? I've never heard of a cartoon in HD before

It's not in HD, but it's upconverted and fed via Fox's HD chain (hence the cut-off Fox logo in the corner).

As for HD cartoons, they do exist. HDNet did Speed Racer a while back. And some of the recent theatrical releases have aired in HD.

Well nightwatchman you may hve me on the right track. I've tuned to WCPO analog today and the lines are much worse also I'm seeing the occasional flash of what looks like power line interence shown on the KYES site. Perhaps the combo of the wind and wet today are making it more pronunced? Even WKRC looks cruddy today and it's usually quite clear.

I tried the AM radio thing on my way home today but I just don't know what I should be listening for. I hear lots of static and bussing and it changes as I drove in.

So if this is the problem who should I try to contact about it?

I figured out that I receive these audio/video dropouts all the time when the temperature is below 32 degrees. For the past weeks during the day, when it has been warm, all the channels have worked perfectly. However, as soon as it gets night time and colder out- the SNR drops and drops until there is no pitcure or the box is not able to decode the signal. I see the SNR is at about 37 during the day and then as the temp begins the fall, the SNR falls and falls until around 25 when the picture is gone completely.

Is there any correlation between SNR and temperature or does anyone have a theory as to why this would occur. Is there maybe some accumulation of moisture in my lines and when it gets really cold, that condensation freezes?

Any input would be apprecitated. Thanks

Tony

Originally posted by cokebear
So if this is the problem who should I try to contact about it?

You could try Cinergy. I don't know how easy it might be though for you to detirmine for sure that the "problem" is with their lines, and in some cases they might not be able to do anything about it. There was a power line arcing problem I had here a number of years ago that was tearing up HF(ham bands/etc)/lo-VHF, it was easy to pinpoint exactly where it was coming from as I was able to walk up the road with a Walkman tuned to AM and find the "noisest spot". Since there is nothing else around within 100's of feet except for Trees and underground phone lines, it was easy to tell where the problem was coming from. I could actually here it making "clicks" on even "clear" FM radio channels. Cinergy came right out and fixed it within a few days.

If you can detirmine for sure that it is a power line problem(which would probably be difficult in your situation), and, If Cinergy DOESN'T do anything about it, if you can prove it to FCC, as well as document your correspondance with Cinergy, then it's somewhat possible FCC might be able to do something about it ...

Originally posted by tbenson81

Is there any correlation between SNR and temperature

Haven't we already covered this?

No, there is no "direct" correlation between SNR and tempurature.

Originally posted by tbenson81
Is there maybe some accumulation of moisture in my lines and when it gets really cold, that condensation freezes?


It seems likely.

Originally posted by tbenson81

or does anyone have a theory as to why this would occur.


My theory is, based on this post and your previous posts the Tempurature drops, affecting TW's poorly maintained/installed lines(and/or connections) via moisture ingress/etc in your area, and RF from WSTR-DT and WCET 48 leak into their leaky lines and cause increased "noise" level on 905 and 998, and therefore lower the SNR (Signal to noise ratio). The same thing is likely to happen with visable "signs" of "ghosting" or interference on analog cable channels at your location ....

All I can say is, if TW won't fix it, and you don't want to discontinue using them, you could try contacting FCC with a complaint and description of the problem. You'll have to provide details concerning the issue, and you'll also have to probably provide evidence of your correspondance with TW and their lack of willingness to properly address the issue.

Here is info on how to "complain" to FCC, and the sorts of issues they will address/etc :

http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/complaints.html

Thanks again Jeff. I think I will try to do a little more searching first to see if I can find a noisier spot but I think it is going to be very difficult. The radio I was using was the one in my truck, its an older digital tuner model, maybe a little more driving around will help matters. Is there any frequency range I should try to use? Higher or lower on the AM dial? What I was hearing today was all over the place even some kind of "WA WA" effect on clearer stations. Clicks, pops and static were all over the area and I think trying a newer radio may help because I get static from the engine RPMs too.

Next time you drive through the area give it a try and see if you think I'm just hoping for it to be a problem with the power lines. Like I said I'm really not sure exactly what I should be hearing as normal so it may be wishful thinking. Heck I wouldn't even care to find it's a problem with the receiver sine this TV is under waranty for the next 3 years. I just wouldn't think I should have to throw up a CM3679 to bring in the Cincy VHF stations.

Starting to feel like I'm beating a dead horse. :(

Originally posted by DrDon
Unless I missed it in this thread (I was in Detroit, this week) it appears WLWT-DT has a new piece of gear. Rather LARGE 5 bug inserted over the top of the NBC peacock bug for the first few seconds of the first three segments of "Medical Investigators." To my knowledge, WLWT hasn't previously inserted a transparent bug on 35 during NBC-HD programming.

I saw it last night and you sure as hell can't miss it. They lay their logo over the NBC logo which isn't exactly the same size and/or shape so it looks weird. To give you an idea of how big the 5 is they took the logo that I have attached and made it transparent and the peacock matches in size to the NBC feed's peacock.

Last week I wrote WCPO an email regarding the jittery picture problem. Yesterday I received a response from them...

Scott,

Thanks for your input regarding the WCPO-dt web site. I got the chance to
look at the thread yesterday. I have been receiving several emails a week
regarding this very problem being discussed in the thread. As with all the
letters I receive regarding quality, I will forward yours to our Chief
Engineer. He has sent me several replies on viewers' letters, and in
speaking with him he has assured me that the problem is being addressed.
I'm sorry that I can't give you an exact time when the issues with the dt
signal will be resolved. Again, thanks for your inquiry.

G. Ruschman, Jr.
WCPO.com

I'm just happy to know Ruschman is still around! Was starting to worry about the boy. I had a friend at one of the Detroit TV stations look at the jaggies issue. He had an immediate and rather surprising answer. If he's right, we were all looking in the wrong place. I'm trying to get that answer into WCPO's hands. Wish me luck.

may the force be with you doc!! If I can do anything to help, let me know!

Well, THAT wasn't it. They don't use the same piece of gear my Detroit buddy had to debug.

Back to the drawing board. So much for The Force, huh? :)

Originally posted by cokebear
Thanks again Jeff. I think I will try to do a little more searching first to see if I can find a noisier spot but I think it is going to be very difficult. The radio I was using was the one in my truck, its an older digital tuner model, maybe a little more driving around will help matters. Is there any frequency range I should try to use? Higher or lower on the AM dial? What I was hearing today was all over the place even some kind of "WA WA" effect on clearer stations. Clicks, pops and static were all over the area and I think trying a newer radio may help because I get static from the engine RPMs too.

Next time you drive through the area give it a try and see if you think I'm just hoping for it to be a problem with the power lines. Like I said I'm really not sure exactly what I should be hearing as normal so it may be wishful thinking. Heck I wouldn't even care to find it's a problem with the receiver sine this TV is under waranty for the next 3 years. I just wouldn't think I should have to throw up a CM3679 to bring in the Cincy VHF stations.

Starting to feel like I'm beating a dead horse. :(

Just about anywhere on the dial would be fine, probably easier to hear it where there isn't a station broadcasting.

The thing is though, with all the businesses in that area, it will probably be pretty much impossible to tell what's causing it, it's probably coming from multiple sources .... Since it seems to change a bit from the weather, that could be a good sign that at least some of it is from the power lines.

But, whether it's coming from the power lines, neon signs, ignition system in your(or someone else's) vehicle,etc,etc, etc it's all pretty much the same "sort" of interference which we usually refer to as "impulse noise" interference ... Even though the KYES site breaks it up into 3 different sections and shows different pics for examples, it would be hard to tell for sure what is causing the "static/sparkes" on your TV, unless you can get rid of the actual source of the interference and see it go away on your TV ... I'm sure you'll also see it when a storm runs through and you get a nearby lightning strike as well... Same sort of interference -- It'll cause a "static crash" on AM radio ... and "static" on the analog TV, the lower the frequency, the more "static" ....

If cinergy can't help you out(and it might be worthwhile to call them as if they can improve the situation just a little it might help you out), if you could do it, probably the best thing to do would be to try to find a higher gain antenna with better directivity, and perhaps without amplification -- and if you could find a "spot" for the antenna where the interference is minimized(I realize that would be difficult in your situation) ... hopefully that would increase the signal enough from the station to "override" the noise and the better directivity would hopefully cut at least some of the interference coming from directions other than antenna is aimed in.

I wouldn't normally recommend one of these, as they aren't much of an antenna, but, one of the winegard "sensar" antennas should be a bit better than what you are using, and maybe it would "work" ok in an ascetically pleasing way for your balcony - there is of course still no guarantee that it would "solve" your impulse noise interference problem. Which by the way is usually only a "real problem" on Low VHF channels 2-6, and HF radio(shortwave/Ham)/AM broadcast band) :

http://www.winegard.com/offair/sensar.htm#gs

Originally posted by DrDon
I'm just happy to know Ruschman is still around!

Yes -- I guess they must have been very busy down there over the past year .... I also wonder if we'll get a newsletter for the DT from them "soon" ... I haven't seen one since about last April ..

I just hope he saw Ron(dr1394)'s posts about the "jaggies" issue and what he found as well when he checked out the thread ... I had sent them(I think their DOE) the info on what Ron found, but never heard back from them ....

i can vouch for the sensar.. I use it and have never had a problem :)


jim

Well Jeff I might have found a hot spot for the interference. There seems to be a great deal of it at the intersection of 122 and towne blvd. right by the welcome to Middletown sign. There is another spot by the off ramp of 75s at the light. The one by Bob Evans is pretty strong though. I mean it was easy for me to tell and I drove by the spot 3 times.

I use a Winegard Sensar OTA for my Cincinnati stations and pull them in crystal clear/no problems from Middletown.

Cokebear,

I happened to see an ad for one of these books last night when doing other research, and thought of you ---- These are written for Ham radio guys, and you might not want to pay $30 bucks for one of them, but if you can find it at library, either of the two books "The ARRL RFI Book", and "AC Power Interference Handbook" shown near top of page here might help you out to some extent with your impulse/electrical noise interference problems :

http://www.arrl.org/catalog/?category=Interference%2FDF&words=

Kiesewetter's column is on the U.C. HD game on WXIX-DT tonight -- Looks like they plan to send the March 2 game in HD as well.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050216/ENT/502160332/1025/LIFE

Somehow, I'm guessing we'll have to tune to WRGT-DT Dayton, or WDKY-
DT Lexington to see A.I. In HD, though .... Perhaps unless for tonight's show, the game is over by 9 ...

And didn't WKRC-DT do the WEBN fireworks in HD for more like 3 or 4 years? (2000-2003?) ... I only got to catch them in HD in 2002 and 2003, but I could have swore their were threads here reporting them in HD in either/and 2000,2001 ... I could be wrong but I had thought I had read somewhere that WCPO-DT set up a HD cam or 2+ sent fireworks in HD in 99 as well ...

Other local HD productions which have aired on the local stations have been "At the Water's Edge" -- A thing on paddlewheelers, hosted by Nick Clooney, mostly with scenes from 99 Tall Stacks which ran in HD on WCET-DT quite often in late 2002/Early 2003, and then there were the HD demo loops done by PPS(which was a local HD production outfit) with local HD Cincinnati scenes from around 99~2000 that I had seen a few times on either WKRC-DT or WCPO-DT ...

Update: Oh yeah .. KET has done a few HD productions as well that have run on PBS HD ..."The Ryan interview" with Ashley Judd in 98(portions of it were also part of the "old" PBS HD demo loop), and more recent installments of "American Shorts" ... One was with Rosie Perez, I don't recall what the other one was ...

That's about it AFAIK where local HD productions which have made it to air are concerned, before the U.C. game on WXIX tonight ...

------------------------------------------------------

Oh yeah ... Couple of other comments on matters of previous discussion --

WLWT-DT "HD bug" -- Man that thing IS huge ... I really don't need it to "wrap around" the Net bug ... They need to move that thing to between the 0% and .05% overscan "area' and downsize it about 10000 times so it all fits within 1 pixel and I can't see it anymore <g> .....

HD "cartoons" -- A couple of episodes of HD "Clifford's Puppy Days" have also been available on PBS HD channel ... They have actually aired on a couple of Sunday nights in HD on WPTO-DT, via their "time shifted" PBS HD schedule ... You might not think HD would make much of a difference for a show like "clifford", but, I was surprosed .... it did look VERY good. They haven't aired on other PBS stations in the area because PBS sent those over their feed at times other than the evenings(or late nights/wee morning hourse with WPTD-DT) ...

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
Somehow, I'm guessing we'll have to tune to WRGT-DT Dayton, or WDKY-
DT Lexington to see A.I. In HD, though .... Perhaps unless for tonight's show, the game is over by 9 ...
The way I read the article, WXIX will "tape-delay" the show in HD...note the part that says "Channel 19 will have two digital recorders catching "Idol" if the game goes beyond 9 p.m."

We'll see, if it runs over, or I suppose we'll see on 3/2 .... It didn't say anything about them "tape-delaying" A.I in HD that I saw .... Two digital recorders doesn't necessarily = HD ... ....

It will be another "first" for them if they do. In the 3 years+ I've been watching Fox Widescreen or Fox HD from them, ... So far, whenever they've "delayed" anything that was HD or "fox WS" from Fox because of a game, the time shifted replay has been SD .... and I didn't realize they even have the equipment at XIX that would allow them to "time shift" FOX HD ....

We did see a UC game replayed on WXIX-DT in HD on a weekday afternoon, last month. Of course, that doesn't mean they own the gear responsible. Nor that they'll use it for Idol.

I forgot about that ... You'd think just about every station out there now ought to have some sort of capability to record and playback HD, I'm not so sure about time-shifting something like A.I. or other network programming though, especially when it might still even be airing from Fox HD ...

And esepecially given the "nature" of the way the FOX HD splicer system works ... I'd think they'd have to have a decoder set up to decode the feed from the ASI stream from Splicer, then a server or other way to record it, and then they'd have to play it back (seperately from the SD feeding the analog station) and insert the local ads/etc - probably in a "syncronized" manner with the analog ... I'm not so sure how all that would work out if say, the U.C. game just runs to say, 9:05~9:15 or so tonight ..

I do know that stations in Indiana "have to" have the ability to time shift the East coast feeds 1 hour during the times when the "Rest of us" are on EDT, because they stay on EST year around ... Given the Fox HD splicer system, I wonder how that works for WXIN-DT Fox HD Indy when the time changes?

man I am fired up for tonight.. about fricken time we get some local high def..

:)

Well, since my $20 Rat Shack rabbit mounted in my attic can't quite pull in WRGT, I'm pulling for WXIX to time-shift the east coast FOX HD feed.

If they pull that off, they will definitely be receiving a letter of commendation from me regarding their commitment to HD, both via the UC game(s) and time-shifting.

To whom should I address the letter at WXIX?

Good that they're getting press for it. Might make the others think about what THEY could do. Especially if they see WXIX drawing extra advertising revenue because of it. Let the HD pi$$ing match begin <G>.

Luebster: The General Manager.

How long before the local newscasts (morning, noon, evening, latenight) go HD?

On the HD local newscasts .. who knows, but I'd guess it will probably be a looong time still ... but I'd love to be surprised ... Anybody want to guess who might be first when it "does" happen ...

I have no idea ... you'd think WLWT might be first since I think they've been "all digital" for quite sometime already, but then again -- who knows ... Might even be WCPO that's first with local HD newcasts ..

Originally posted by DrDon
Let the HD pi$$ing match begin <G>.


No doubt ... Maybe we'll even get HD riverfest again in September, after HD being MIA in 2004 ....

There was also that syndicated HD show (whatever it was - I think it was "brought to you by nationwide insurance or some such thing) that aired on WLWT-DT last saturday night at 7~8 which caught me by surprise .... especially because of the crawl they ran on the analog about it that said to tune to their digital station for the HD version ...

Granted, we used to have (sometimes anyway) the HD-one syndicated movies from WKRC-DT as well, but they never actually promoted the fact they were HD ....

Just out of curiosity, will the game be blacked out on ESPN2 since there is local coverage on 19?

I'd have to look to see if ESPN has regional or national rights on Wednesday nights. I THINK it's regional, which means it's supposed to be blacked out. Doesn't always happen, though. Insight has gotten all the way to the half before switching to ESPN News, then left ESPN News up for a whole day.

So will American Idol be in HD tonight if it is delayed by the game? I think it is scheduled for 9 but if the game runs over even by a few minutes, would it then become tape delay?

That's what we were trying to figure out near the top of this page. If I were a betting man, I'd bet on "no."

I use a Winegard Sensar OTA for my Cincinnati stations and pull them in crystal clear/no problems from Middletown.

2questions. Where did you get it and how much was it?

UPDATE:Went to the winegard site and they have a new sensar any thoughts?

Originally posted by DrDon
That's what we were trying to figure out near the top of this page. If I were a betting man, I'd bet on "no."

I would bet no as well, unless the game just runs over a few minutes and they join AI HD "in progress" on the digital station ...

Way to go WXIX! Their First HD production is looking good ! Slick looking graphics and everything. Crappy low rez screenshot from digital camera attached ...

BTW ... the game is blacked out on E* ESPN2 here ...

Found a pdf on that new sensar. oops I mean sharpshooter.

Game looks great in HD. Man I can't wait to see my Wildcats that way.

I dogged 19 for the NFL games in SD earlier this year, but this is one in the plus column for them. I'm picking it up in HD on my Voom OTA antenna in West Chester loud and clear. Are all Bearcats games going to be in HD on 19 now?

ESPN2 is blacked out on Voom too.

well.. not too bad!! kudos to fox19!! looks great!! this is a red letter day in the history of cincinnati, oh hdtv!!! a few minor annoyances.. much like the macroblocking or swimming grass, the court is swimming a little too.. not that bad, but a little and I see very very very minor jaggies around the metal railing..but no real complaints!!!

the sharpshooter is not the sensar replacement... the sensar can be found online for $26 from - I have the sensar II - the latest is the sensar III - looks a little different, but seems to work the same.

http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/WC-810.pdf - I have the 1100 (non amplified) - the 2200 is more expensive and amplified..

directv brought mine to me, but a friend just ordered it from

http://www.starkelectronic.com/wgs2000.htm - mom and pop shop but they sent it right away

jim

The game looked great in HD tonight. I too liked the graphics and the fact that no other station has locally produced a live event like this (I think I am right on that fact I sure I will be corrected if wrong). I just dropped a note to the station manager over at FOX19 letting him know of the great job they all did for the UC game in HD. I hope they keep it up and other stations will follow.

WXIX did an excellent job with the game tonight and getting "American Idol" in HD. No word back yet from WCPO, but now I am watching WKEF, and I hope they add DD5.1 soon! An email will go to FOX19 to let them know about doing the game in HD!

Originally posted by zekyl
The game looked great in HD tonight. I too liked the graphics and the fact that no other station has locally produced a live event like this (I think I am right on that fact I sure I will be corrected if wrong).

Well, it's the first time a local station has produced a live SPORTS event.

However, as I mentioned on the last page of this thread(and was mentioned in the enquirer column), WKRC-DT has done Live HD productions of WEBN HD fireworks -- I caught the HD fireworks on WKRC-DT in 2002+2003, the 2002 coverage was especially excellent IMO.

They used something like 8 HD cams. Al Kenyon, who used to be a Clear Channel engineer on the radio side of things posted a bit of info about the production in the Cincinnati threads at the time. You'll also find earlier posts about earlier HD fireworks before 2002, I believe I referenced a couple of those links(if they still work) in the first post of this thread.

In 2003, the same HD truck which MNF HD football uses was used for the fireworks, prior to that I believe they leased a truck from WRAL-DT, a station which was a "HD pioneer" station -- The truck used in 2003 was actually owned by Clear channel, and got a big "refit" just before 2003 NFL HD season for MNF HD football -- although I'm not sure who owns it now. They might not have been able to use it for HD fireworks, except that that particular week, it worked out that there wasn't a Monday night game ...

Well, Alias only hickuped twice tonight. That is a marked improvement over the last 6 weeks or so. I've yet to call DirecTV and get a new hr10-250.

Those who have had their's swapped out: do you guys still have hickups at all?

ktarkington, I've had my HR10-250 for about a month now, and I haven't noticed any hiccuping while watching ch9.1 live (or any channel). Now a few times I've seen it when playing back a recording, but I'm not sure if what channels I've seen that on. I'll start paying attention. Overall, I'm loving my HDTivo.

I am sure that someone may have mentioned this but what is the Hard Drive size in the 8300 box that TW is giving out and how many hours of HD does that equate to? Thanks

SA8300 specs (http://www.scientificatlanta.com/consumers_new/CableBoxes/8300hd.htm)


google is your friend ;-)


Originally posted by tbenson81
I am sure that someone may have mentioned this but what is the Hard Drive size in the 8300 box that TW is giving out and how many hours of HD does that equate to? Thanks

Originally posted by cokebear
2questions. Where did you get it and how much was it?

UPDATE:Went to the winegard site and they have a new sensar any thoughts?

When I switched to HD service with DirecTV, I paid the extra $50 to have an OTA installed. I've seen them on eBay for under $50. When they first set it up, they diplexed it with my satellite dish but it wouldn't work with that setup. So I bought a $35 amplifier/power supply from RS and ran a separate coax cable to the back of the receiver. It works great for pulling in Cincinnati stations (I'm in Middletown). However, due to terrain issues, I couldn't receive Dayton stations. Perhaps if I would have mounted it on a tallere pole, I could have pulled in Dayton stations. A couple of days ago I installed a big open element RS antenna on a 10 foot pole and tripod for pulling in the Dayton stations. Depending on the terrain between your house and the towers, the Sensar should work fine for you.

Originally posted by cokebear
Found a pdf on that new sensar. oops I mean sharpshooter.

Game looks great in HD. Man I can't wait to see my Wildcats that way.

I have an outdoor model. I don't know anything about how the indoor model would work. I suppose it would depend on where you're located. I doubt if it would work very well in the suburbs.

Thanks Gerhard - I found that page as well but it seems there are several different variations of the 8300. Some with 80 GB drives and some with 160 GB drives. I assume that TW is giving out the 160GB drive with 90 hours of SD and 20 HD but who knows. It wouldnt surprise me if there was only an 80 Gig drive in there.

While on the subject of local HD productions, WCET will air "Safe Passages" tonight at 7:30. It is their first full length production shot on HD Cam, posted on Avid Nitrous and aired in HD off Pinnacle server.

tvnick..

I don't suppose WCET plans to devote any more bandwidth to this production than they do PBS-HD telecasts, do they? The two subs really wreck anything on 48-1 that's not an art show. Not trying to be critical, but since the simulcast rule has been lifted, keeping 48-2 up during prime time seems unnecessary.

I just sent congrats and thanks to WXIX - they responded right a way and were very appreciative of the comments. I suggest everyone else do the same - roliver@fox19.com and gm@fox19.com

jim

Originally posted by tbenson81
Thanks Gerhard - I found that page as well but it seems there are several different variations of the 8300. Some with 80 GB drives and some with 160 GB drives. I assume that TW is giving out the 160GB drive with 90 hours of SD and 20 HD but who knows. It wouldnt surprise me if there was only an 80 Gig drive in there.
I think i've already pushed mine over 10 hours of HD recordings so I doubt that I have a 80GB drive. I remember hearing 8000s had different sized hard drives, but I don't remember hearing the same for the 8300s. Also, SA is not advertising that they are releasing 8300s with two different sized hard drives.

Here is a PDF directly from Scientific Atlantic outlining several different models.

http://www.sciatl.com/customers/Source/7004920.pdf

Originally posted by jim tressler
I just sent congrats and thanks to WXIX - they responded right a way and were very appreciative of the comments. I suggest everyone else do the same - roliver@fox19.com and gm@fox19.com

jim
Thanks have been sent.

Originally posted by luebster
Thanks have been sent. Ditto here, naturally.

Originally posted by tbenson81
Here is a PDF directly from Scientific Atlantic outlining several different models.

http://www.sciatl.com/customers/Source/7004920.pdf


Yep, and if you look at the model specs in the part number grid (page 5 of 5 in the .pdf document) you'll see four HD models - all with 160GB HDD. Only the SD models are shown with 80GB HDD.

:p

Sensar OTA,

Anyone use this succesfully for local hd signal (cinti stations) in the loveland area? On the antenna forums the post are pretty derogatory to this type (it must be a size thing). I'm unable to 19 or 12 in hdtv with the bowtie on the satellite dish.

Jeff

We tried (read: hillbilly engineered) it on a temporary basis at my inlaws house with good results - they live near the saftey service building that collapsed a few months ago.

What part of loveland are you in?

jim

Jim,

I'm near montgomery rd/field ertel. its very flat around my place. my dish is on the west side of the house on the corner of the roof (2 story).

Jeff

goheelz

Punt the on-the-dish dipole. Notorious for multipath. Get a nice Silver Sensor or even cheap rabbit ears and start with those. Keep receipts and work your way up until you have what you need. I'd bet with your dish-mounted dipole, the analog UHFs have ghosts.

Originally posted by goheelz
On the antenna forums the post are pretty derogatory to this type (it must be a size thing).

Well, it is not "directly" because of a "size thing". -- Believe it or not, those folks are not saying that along the lines of "my antenna is bigger than yours so it must be better ne ne ne ...."

It is because you can't change the laws of physics, or the wavelenth of a signal travelling through the airwaves on any given frequency(channel) ....

This is all pretty basic and just scratches the surface and doesn't cover "everything" involved in the detail it deserves --- And you can also google for some excellent info on antenna design/performance, or get a copy of ARRL antenna book if you want to understand how antennas actually work, and what makes a "good" antenna, but here's goes on concerning some of the hows and why's :

Most "good" TV antennas are based on 1/2 wave dipole(s) ... The "elements" on the antenna are roughly 1/2 wavelength for the frequencies that are used by TV/DTV signals ... That doesn't necessarily have to mean a extremely large antenna, especially for UHF TV frequencies, but generally speaking bigger is better, I'll attempt to explain a little about why this is true, below.

Each TV/DTV station uses a very "wide" portion of frequencies(6MHZ) to begin with, and the frequencies used by all the TV stations out there vary greatly from one end of the portions of spectrum they use(ch 2 VHF - 54~60MHZ) to the other (Ch 69 UHF - 800~806MHZ), and therefore the wavelengths vary greatly as well -- 1/2 wavelentgh at channel 2(54~60MHZ) is 9.11 Feet long, 1/2 wavelength at VHF channel 13(210~216MHZ) is 2.25FT, 1/2 wavelength at UHF channel 14(470-476MHZ) is 1.04 FT, 1/2 wavelentgh at UHF Channel 69(800~806MHZ) is is 7.3 Inches. In order for a TV antenna to provide "good" peformance on all TV channels, This really isn't the best explanation but in the interest of "shortness" basically -- it has to be "resonant", or nearly so on all those frequencies TV stations use ... 54-88MHZ(VHF ch 2-6), 175~216 MHZ(VHF ch 7-13), and 470-806MHZ(UHF ch 14-69 - ch 37 is not used by TV broadcasters, it's allocated for radio astronomy).

A Pair of "rabbit ears"(Center fed, 1/2 wave dipole - a single "element"), adjusted to be the exact length of 1/2 wavelength for the frequency(channel) to be received is a "good" antenna design, but it provides no "relative" signal gain. When we say an antenna has 10dbd gain on a given frequency, or frequency range, the last "d" in "dbd" is a reference to a "reference" 1/2 wave dipole --- meaning the antenna has 10db MORE signal gain than a reference dipole ... If we just used a piece of wire as an antenna of no particular length for reception of a given channel, it would likely have less gain than the "reference" 1/2 wave dipole "cut" or "adjusted" for the correct length for that frequency, but we generally say a simple, 1/2 wave dipole has 0db gain.

Now -- In order to make a "good" antenna, that will actually have some amount of signal gain and "work well" and provide gain across a wide range of frequencies, it is necessary to add "elements" at certian spacings and, sometimes different lengths that match 1/2 wavelentgh of the frequencies to be received .... Given a good design, basically speaking the larger an antenna is, the more "elements"(1/2 wave dipoles at different lengths and or/spacing/etc, basically) it can have, and the more signal gain it can provide across a wider range of frequencies, and also, the more directivity it can provide. Directivity is often important, as with greater directivity comes reduced mutlipath(ghosting on analogs), and reduced interference(such as from say, nearby co-channel or first adjacent stations in other directions), as long as we have the directional antenna aimed in the right direction(usually towards the towers for the stations you want to receive).

Now -- All broadband TV antennas(antennas made to provide "good" performance on a wide range of frequencies) are a bit of a compromise ... even the best broadband antenna designs out there(many of which still work VERY well) -- The best antenna you could probably come across, with lots of signal gain and excellent directivity would still be large compared to a "reference dipole" for that given frequency, but all the "elements" would be "tuned" for a specific frequency, and the antenna would only "work well" on, or near that frequency ... They do make antennas like this for TV, but they only work really well for reception on 1 channel.

Now ... Look at the sensar's design. There is just no way the sensar can perform well on the entire range of frequencies allocated to TV stations in the area. Neither can rabbit ears, but, you can "adjust those" from the comfort of your own home<g> It's design is a BIG compromise in performance, while at the same time offering some sort of capability for reception on VHF/UHF frequencies. It's obvious that it's pretty much in the class with "coat hanger" sort of antenna, perhaps a coat hanger that works better than your "average" coat hanger, but it is a coat hanger nonetheless. Is it better than the "dish clip on" type of antenna? likely Yes ..

Now ... THAT does NOT mean to say a Sensar(or a pair of rabbit ears, or a coat hanger for that matter) won't work well for many folks who are in a relatively strong signal area for the desired stations, and, that don't have too serious of an issue with multipath, terrain blockage issues/etc/etc .... It's very possible it WILL work well for many folks, and in fact that seems to be the case from those folks who are using them ...

Just don't expect it to have as good perfomance as a small VHF/UHF combo of "conventional design" -- and especially so on the UHF channels --- such as a CM 3016, or a RS VU75/RS VU90, or even as good performance as UHF only antennas such as the "silver sensor"(uses a well proven conventional "log periodic" design -- It's not extremely hi-gain, but it is quite directional, and the gain is quite "even" across UHF band), and definetly not as good performance as UHF only antennas such as CM4221 4bay bowtie, or even the R-S DBT .... Now ... on the other hand Would the Sensar perform better on VHF than A Silver sensor or a CM4221 ? Definitely .... Better than a VHF/UHF combo such as VU90 -- No way ... Better on VHF than a multielement VHF only antenna ... no way ... Will a UHF only antenna such as CM4221 work "well enough" from Loveland so you can acheive good results with WCPO-DT, or from the Cincinnati analogs? Maybe, but it's hard to say ... Probably defineitely not analog 5, but you never know until you try it ...

Originally posted by tvnick
While on the subject of local HD productions, WCET will air "Safe Passages" tonight at 7:30. It is their first full length production shot on HD Cam, posted on Avid Nitrous and aired in HD off Pinnacle server.

Except for what looks like MPEGII compression artifacts during some of the scene changes/transistions(much like what used to happen on WKRC-DT during CBS HD "It's all here" promo when they had "webhopper" running ), it looks very good here.

I hope it's the first of many HD productions from them -- Thanks for telling us about it ....

cool... I am just about 5 miles farther out then you on montgomery.. you should have no problems as that general area is relativly high compared to the towers.. for $25 its worth a shot!

jim


Originally posted by goheelz
Jim,

I'm near montgomery rd/field ertel. its very flat around my place. my dish is on the west side of the house on the corner of the roof (2 story).

Jeff

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
Well, it is not "directly" because of a "size thing". -- Believe it or not, those folks are not saying that along the lines of "my antenna is bigger than yours so it must be better ne ne ne ...."

It is because you can't change the laws of physics, or the wavelenth of a signal travelling through the airwaves on any given frequency(channel) ....
...

Jeff,
This is an awesome response - what a great explanation. Ever thought about teaching? You're a great asset to this forum.
best,
gruber

gruber,

thanks. Yeah, I thought about it ... That's what I went to school for ... I wasn't very good at it in "real life" however ...

Looks like WPTO-DT/WPTD-DT may be working on their PID's+PSIP ...

Neither WPTO-DT/WPTD-DT is remapping via PSIP so far here today.

I'm still getting everything just fine currently from WPTD-DT, showing up at 58.2~58.6, but not remapping to 16.2~16.6 as usual.

WPTO-DT doesn't appear to be sending anything "decodable" currently, by either my Zenith HDV420, or even the DTC-100 with the PSIP stuff turned off. If I punch in "RF" channel 28, however -- Within the past 10 minutes or so, it's switched from showing a "blank screen" on 28-2, to a blank screen on 28-3 on both receivers ... The RCA shows a "lock" on 28-3+dolby digital indicator lights up, Zenith doesn't ....

--------------

So, I wouldn't do it NOW but there may be the need for some more "Rescanning for channels" on some receivers soon ...

btw, All stations except WPTD-DT, WCPO-DT, and WCET-DT in Dayton/Cincinnati are currently show up with their first subchannel as X-3 on DTC-100 with PSIP remapping turned off. I assume all the stations starting with "x-3" have made the necessary changes to be in compliance with new requirements that specify stations must use MPEG2 PID's for program streams at addresses of 0x0030 or above, I can't say for sure whether those stations still showing up with "x-2" or "x-1"(WCPO-DT, WCET-DT+WPTD-DT) as first subchannel via MPEGII(not PSIP) info are in "compliance" with the new PID rules (which went into effect in January)yet or not ... I do notice the DTC-100 with the PSIP stuff turned off now gets "hung up" on a 34-6 "placeholder" from WCET-DT the past several days, 34-1~34.5 subs are fine ...

--------------------

Upate 6:10pm - WPTO-DT is now decoding just fine here(at 28.3~28.7 now), still no remap though ...

Speaking of PSIP, WXIX-DT has not been sending program info for the last couple of days. I wonder if they are aware of it or not.

Ok - So I know you know all the issues that I have had with my signal and I really appreciate all your insight thus far. Here is another intereseting thing that I thought you could shed light on.

My Tv and my computer are in separate rooms but they are pretty much back to back with the wall that divides the 2 rooms. Anyways, today when I was just reading up on AVS forum, I noticed a buzzing coming from my computer speakers. I turned the volume all the way up to full blast and the buzzing was excruitaitng but I could also make out 700 WLW through all the noise. Now my question is - Why am I receiving a faint wlw out of my computer speakers and could this be what is also causing the interrefence with my TV?

Thanks

Originally posted by tbenson81
Ok - So I know you know all the issues that I have had with my signal and I really appreciate all your insight thus far. Here is another intereseting thing that I thought you could shed light on.

My Tv and my computer are in separate rooms but they are pretty much back to back with the wall that divides the 2 rooms. Anyways, today when I was just reading up on AVS forum, I noticed a buzzing coming from my computer speakers. I turned the volume all the way up to full blast and the buzzing was excruitaitng but I could also make out 700 WLW through all the noise. Now my question is - Why am I receiving a faint wlw out of my computer speakers and could this be what is also causing the interrefence with my TV?

Thanks

I might be able to help here...
Your PC speakers are usually connected with a stereo mini-plug. Try unplugging them and plug a set of headphones in instead. Crank up the volume, if WLW (or any other station or CB) is still there, then you have a strange motherboard or an internal grounding problem. If the sound is gone, then the problem is with your speakers. Some speaker cables are very cheap and have little or no shielding. If the cable has a plug on both ends, try replacing it with a shielded cable. If the problem is still there after replacing the cable and you just can't live with it, try a different set of speakers. Same thing goes if the cable is hard-wired into the speakers, just try a new set.

My brother had a set that picked up a certain trucker who had a very high-powered CB rig. He'd be sitting there working and some guy would yell something like, 'hey, get a load of the legs on that chevy' - my brother thought he was hearing voices...he's adjusted well to the asylum...:-)

good luck!
gruber

good luck

Originally posted by tbenson81
Now my question is - Why am I receiving a faint wlw out of my computer speakers


As gruber indicated, Probably because of poor RF shielding in some consumer equipment, especially given that I don't think you are extremely close to WLW (in Mason) ....If you move the wires around a little bit/etc, it should probably go away as well ... Basically, the speaker wires are likely acting somewhat as an antenna, and in combination with the magnetic coil in your speakers, given WLW's blow torch signal you have a sort of "rudimentary" AM/HF radio receiver ....

Here is an interesting(unrelated to your problem) story concerning WLW and an interesting interference problem caused by Cinergy utility lines near WLW's tower that were in effect, acting as a "2nd" transmitter for WLW -- but, on the "wrong" frequencies -- I recall hearing the problem here a few years back on 1885KHZ BTW -- :

http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2002/05/31/103/

Originally posted by tbenson81
could this be what is also causing the interrefence with my TV?


No, I don't think so, at least I think it would be highly unlikely. WLW transmits at 700KHZ(700,000 Cycles per second). Your having problems with signals sent over a(supposedly) shielded cable, from a location many miles distant from WLW's tower at hundreds of millions of Cycles per second, on the exact same frequencies WSTR-DT and WCET 48 transmit on ... The problem causing the interference to your TV is leaky cable lines/connections.

It is however, I think a "similar" sort of problem you are having with your computer speakers/wires/etc+WLW, and TW's leaky cable lines/connections which is likely letting in RF from "Outside" of the wire.

Noticed WPTO-DT/WPTD-DT is now remapping this evening via PSIP to 14.x/16.x respectively ...

just noticed the sound on wlwt-dt is a little off.. anyone else see that?

Just noticed that WXIX played a short clip about the station and the national anthem, then turned off both the analog and digital channels. I have never seen them do this, just WCET. Does anyone know why they are doing this? WLWT-DT during Leno seemed good here.

JY Dogg,

Probably in order to perform "maintence tasks" on the transmitter(s)/etc during the wee morning hours when fewer folks are watching ...

I've seen WXIX's sign off before ... The last time I saw it, the video during National anthem was of a F-15 flying through a canyon ... I wonder if they have changed that to something newer?

WAVE 3 Louisville has an interesting signoff, at least it did the last time I saw it at about 3am ... After the spiel with the station info, the guy says "Now, get some sleep" .... LOL ...

Oh, Ok, makes perfect sense, maybe they can fix their PSIP generator since it hasn't been working. It was the same sign-off video that you described.

Thanks a lot guys - I unplugged and moved the wires around just like you said and the problem went away or at least reduced itself enough to where I cant make out any sounds or voices.

Gruber - Thanks for the story, that was pretty funny about your brother and the trucker. I hope that he is doing well!

PS. NiteWatch - Does anyone broadcast on frequency 581.000? When TW added FOX HD, they placed it on that frrequency and now that channel has the same problem with the noise.

No, noone around here. 581MHZ is UHF channel 32, just below UHF Channel 33 where WSTR digital transmits, and just above UHF channel 31 where WKRC-DT transmits. WLKY 32 Louisville would be the closest station that transmits on 32, I don't think you'd be picking that up via cable lines, even leaky ones. In addition to leaky cable lines/connections(which seems likely given your observation about temperature changes causing "differences" in reception), another thing I suppose it Could be could be their line amps overloading or being "bad" .. Overloaded amps can spread "noise"(intermodulation distortion) from signals(other ones they are sending via cable) on other frequencies all over the place ...

Here is a link to a list of TV channels(OTA and most cable analog systems) and what frequencies they use:

http://www.csgnetwork.com/tvfreqtable.html

OK I have been checking around more with an AM radio trying to find the source(s) of interference I'm getting around here. The furnace is very close to my setup with the configuration of these apts. and I was picking up a whole lot of noise coming out of the closet its in. Anyway I was thinking motor so I started playing around turning the fan blower off and on checking the signal on WCPO and there was no difference. After cutting power to the whole apt. there is still some interference coming from the same spot. My question I suppose is is it possible for a gas line to carry interference?

Guess I better get to finding some of those books Jeff because when I showed my wife a picture of the sensar antenna mounted with a SAT dish she flipped out and ssaid no way. It really is a little large for the spot on our balcony anyways. Jees I can't wait to get into a real house.

Who knows what the deal is but hopefully we only have a few weeks left of cold temperatures and hopefully things improve until next winter. Thanks again for all your help! You truly are a wizard

Originally posted by cokebear
My question I suppose is is it possible for a gas line to carry interference?


Well, it could act as a sort of a antenna that becomes "somewhat" connected to your AM radio if it's nearby ... Thus potentially increasing actual AM broadcast signals, or picking up more "interference" ... I wouldn't think it would be a problem for your TV antenna out on the balcony ...

That was a good idea to check the motor on your furnance fan blower ... On TV, your most likely to see the effect of "impulse noise"/electrical interference(static/sparkles) on analog stations on Lo-VHF channels 2-6 ... You might be able to see the difference in "static" when the motor kicks on or off ..

Of course, being in an aprartment, you are close enough that neighbor's appliances could have an effect as well ...

Originally posted by tbenson81
You truly are a wizard


Naw man ...

Well there is quite a bit of interference in here even after kicking off all the breakers but most of it is coming from that furnace area. With the power on it's much worse in here, almost all the power lines have some. The laundry area in the basement has I guess 12 electric meters and a phone distribution pannel but there is just as much or more noise in here. There is no noticable noise out on the balcony at all and nothing until I start following the underground power lines ( I can find a section of them fairly close that does produce some noise but a step or 2 away from them and it's gone). So the heck with it. Thats it I give up.

For the past few days (perhaps longer as we're not big WB viewers) we have not been able to tune WSTR-DT with our Samsung 151. It would hang on the station, turn blue and not change channels unless you clicked like mad. This weekend I attempted a rescan, which exhibited the same behavior when it hit WSTR-DT on the scan.

I had the flash upgrade kit since prior to the Super Bowl (just in case!) but vowed not to use it until necessary. Guess what? It fixed it! I'm not certain if they're using the broadcast flag or not, but this may be an indication.

Does anyone know when or why its taking so long for NBC / ABC / CBS to provide 5.1 with its HD signal.

Is this the same for OTA users or is this an issue with TW people only?

Since we just received fox and their pic and 5.1 is terrific, I am wondering what the deal is with the other affiliates. Thanks

Tony

I think I've posted this a few times in this thread, but here we go, again.

Latest info I have says that 5.1 is in the budget for capital improvements this year at WKRC and WLWT. BUT.. WKRC may be waiting on a CBS "group buy." It's usually cheaper. Most improvements happen in non-sweeps periods. Which means March or Summer. Since DTV is still way downthe priorities list, expect any work to be done to happen during the summer.

As for WCPO-DT, we'd heard it would be sometime after the move. However, if ABC is thinking of changing its HD distribution system to something similar to Fox's, there's no reason for WCPO to spend the money on gear they may not even need in six months.

Doc

Originally posted by psm0110
I'm not certain if they're using the broadcast flag or not, but this may be an indication.

I have no way of telling either(the receivers I am currently using SHOULD just ignore the flag), but it certianly would be good to know when the stations in the area turn the goofy thing on ....

Thanks DrDon

Sorry you had to reiterate yourself

I don't mind. It can be a bit daunting to page back through a thread this long. :)

1 last question for you guys.

For everyone receiving an OTA signal - is the signal stronger/better in the winter months and colder temperatures and at night?

If so - it would be logically to assume that if my cable were being affected by external RF then things should start to clear up in the warmer months when the air is thicker and the trees are fuller to subdue the strentgh of external frequencies.

Is this an accurate assumption??

Thanks
Tony

(updated)

Tony,

Keep in mind, it's not the OTA signals that are the "cause" of interference to cable, -- IF that is what is getting "in", and causing your problems, it would be because of leaky cable/connections/etc ... The field strength of the OTA signals at your location are not going to change much, if at all due to the seasons/trees on leaves/etc.

Anyway to answer your question,

Here My OTA signals from the Dayton/Cincinnati stations are pretty close to being exactly the same year around, from what I can tell. I've experienced about 5 reception related dropouts(each lasting about 1 second each) when I've been watching or monitoring local stations since 2001, and in each case it was quite apparent what was causing the problem. For that matter, it's a little strange, but all 5 of those happened in 2002 ....

2 or 3 of those dropouts came from very nearby lightning strikes(within a few hundred feet of my antenna) creating a big spike of "impulse noise" interference and affecting WCPO-DT, and once from co-channel interference from WNWO 24 Toledo coming in via "troposperhic scatter"* strong enough off back of antenna to cause a dropout to WCVN-DT, and once WBNS 10 Columbus blasting in via a bit of tropo off side of antenna to cause a dropout or two to WCPO-DT 10 ... I of course often see WBNS 10/WNWO 24 coming in strong enough with proper antenna aiming via "tropo", and they don't usually even make the meter go down for the WCVN-DT/WCPO-DT if directional antenna is aimed towards the "corresponding" co-channel locals(WCPO-DT 10/WCVN-DT 24) ..Here, anyway It seems to take a VERY VERY strong co-channel signal coming in via enhanced signal propagation conditions to "disrupt" reception of strong, local signals ... YMMV of course ... For instance, I expectFolks who are in more "fringe area" locations, or with "bi-directional" antennas that are located between, say WCPO and WBNS, or with "less directional" antennas are likely to have more problems with co-channel interference issues during enhanced signal propatation conditions, however ... this sort of thing *should* get better after analog shut off, if stations make "good" channel election choices ....

* -"tropo" for short -- Basically enhanced VHF/UHF signal propagation caused by temperature inversions which allow the "air" to refract VHF/UHF signals MUCH much farther beyond curvature of earth than is normally possible - these sorts of conditions are more common in Spring/Summer/fall months.

Tree leaves being on SLIGHTLY attenuates signals, especially on higher UHF channels, multipath conditions can also slightly be effected by tree leaves being on as well .. They don't "produce" multipath themselves in cases that I know of(maybe some leaves of certian tree species might however), but can slightly effect the signal "path/paths" due to the slight amount of extra signal attenation by trees/leaves. Especially For those using indoor antennas, or with severe terrain or other direct-signal path blockage issues(tall nearby bulidings/etc), or with "not-so" directional antennas, or directional antennas that are not so "properly" aimed/etc, I think in some cases the effects caused by leaves being/on off trees can perhaps seem to be more of an issue than they probably "actually" are ...

I *do* notice that on a couple of the dayton analog UHF stations(for which I have terrain issues and lots of nearby trees), that there is more "ghosting" in the winter when the leaves are actually off ... You can even tell on the TV when the wind is blowing the limbs around, due to "variable" ghosting(dynamic multipath) on a couple of the Dayton analogs, it's not quite a "fluttery thing" like I often get from a aircraft reflection(not so much anymore since the DC-3's don't fly out of Hook field as much as they used to), but is still very similar to what happens when a plane flies over and there is a reflection of the signal that "bounces" off the aircraft .. I've yet to see anything like that cause a problem with digital reception here, however ... As allways, YMMV ...

Being pretty much in the "middle of the woods" here, with trees beginning about 15feet from my antenna -- about the only place I can see the "attenuation effect" from tree leaves is on low power stations such as 61 in Cincinnati ... it's just a very tad bit "snowier" when the leaves are on, I doubt that the hi-UHF channel station signals is much more than 2db or so weaker here when leaves are on, probably not much change at all for low-UHF or VHF stations ....

Thanks Jeff

Since it doesnt look like the source of the problem is ever going to be fixed - I guess I am trying to be optimistic that the symptoms will be downgraded in the summer. Since I already notice a considerable difference in warmer temps I am hopeful that it will stabilize in the summer.

tbenson81,

Well from your previous comments it seems quite possible the temparture has an effect on the cable ingress(or whatever the exact problem is they are having), perhaps because of moisture ingress into their lines/conncections and subsequent freezing thawing of that moisture, which certianly could make a difference ...

I'd say your best bet, other than if you don't want to go through the process of complaining to FCC about TW's lack of ability to solve the problem you are having, would be if the problem is far enough "down the line" from you that it is also effecting your neighbors, in which case, when more of them "upgrade" to HD, they'll probably see the problem and complain to TW about it, meaning hopefully someday you'll come home one day and the problem will be fixed ...

Or, the next time you upgrade your set, it will probably have a internal DTV/HD receiver in it and you can then use it along with indoor antenna(rabbit ears, silver sensor/etc) to receive the stations you are having problems with via TW ...

I just got home and checked my email and had received the message below from Scientific Atlanta. I checked my 8300 and it wasn't recording Idol because I had it set to first run only.

*********************
Dear DVR Subscriber,

It has just been brought to our attention that the providers of the program information in your interactive program guide have labeled tonight's and tomorrow's episodes of "American Idol" as re-runs when, in fact, they are first run episodes. So, if you've set up your DVR to record first-run only episodes of American Idol, it will not be recorded tonight or tomorrow night.

To ensure that these episodes are recorded, you will need to manually schedule each of them again by time or by program name for tonight and tomorrow night.

If you have any friends or neighbors who are not members of the Explorer eClub, you might want to let them know about this.

We apologize for any inconvenience.

Sincerely,

Scientific-Atlanta

mbarcus,

Wow ... talk about providing excellent "service" ... That IS quite impressive, especially coming from a STB manufacturer ....

I'm getting increasingly PO'd with my situation behind the 700 WLW tower. Still cannot get reliable reception for OTA signals, even with an antenna now on my rooftop. I've tried the filters suggested earlier when I first mentioned this problem, but to no avail...

I think that JimTressler is up in Middletown and uses the same OTA antenna I'm using (WG G-1000???)... He states he has great reception for Cincinnati and Dayton... I get lousy reception to both. That being said, I would have to assume that the tower is a big factor in my issues.

Question for everyone : Does anyone have an email address for the engineering dept at 700WLW ? I've called an left several unanswered voice mails. Maybe a paper trail will prompt them to actually respond. My hope is that they will offer some sort of soultion to all of this...

Smackman,

I live in Middletown too and get WLWT no problem with a Winegard Sensar II OTA. The antenna looks like the one on the bottom right corner of this page...

http://www.winegard.com/offair/sensar.htm

I can only get Cincinnati stations with this one as I have too many hills north of me and it's only on a 3' pole. To get Dayton I had to go with an open element design OTA and I mounted it on a 10' pole.

Originally posted by smackman
That being said, I would have to assume that the tower is a big factor in my issues.


It might be a factor, and I could be wrong but I doubt it is the underlying "cause" of your reception problems ... If it were, when I drive by their tower, I probably wouldn't be able to receive any other AM/FM radio stations ....

You shouldn't have to assume ... Check your analog TV reception of Cincinnati/Dayton stations. What do the ANALOG stations look like? Lots of snow or ghosts? Any sign of interference? If so, does the interference show up on All channels, or is it just "herringbone" interference on some VHF channels? if you are having interference issues they'll show up on the screen on analog stations, if it's actually WLW itself, you would hear them coming through your TV on certian channels(perhaps in a muffled fashion) and you would also probably see video "effects" that correspond directly to the audio from WLW .. See the info in section 14 here for more details on how to diagnose issues :

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennadex.html

Make sure you are not using a "amplifier"/amplified antenna, that may be where any "interference issues" you are getting are actually coming from, especially since the amplifiers in those things are very broadband and can easily be overloaded by nearby strong signals - they don't have to be strong signals on TV channels ... A filter placed AFTER the antenna isn't going to help if the amplifier inside the antenna casing(which is the case with the amplified Winegard Sensar models) is overloading ...

The amplifer inside the amplified "Sensar" antenna also must be powered in order for the antenna to work(although you probably don't want to use a amp being so close to WLW's tower) -- power is supplied along the coax from a power inserter you should have received with the antenna, I think in some cases it can be supplied from a Sat receiver as well, but not sure ... keep in mind, that current running along the coax will be blocked if anything that will block it, such as a 2-way splitter is put between the power inserter and the antenna ... If you are using a amplified sensar, and all your getting is weak, snowy analog signals, then the amplfier inside it is probably not receiving power, or you have some bad connections/etc ..

It is possible(such as if it's getting in through the RF shielding on your tuner - again if so you'd see the interference on analog channels), but I would think it's probably unlikely that interference from 700 WLW, or any other RF coming from their tower is causing your problem ... I think they have a FM station broadcasting from there as well however, and if it's overloading a amp you are using, it especially it's much more likely to cause problems, so if the amp you are using(inlcluding the one in the sensar) has a switcable FM trap, make sure you have it set to "IN" ...

If it IS a interference problem concerning strong signals coming off of WLW tower, I'd also try the suggestion William offered ...

Just trying to help, good luck ...

Thanks for the info, everyone.

Yes, there is an FM station broadcasting from just up the street... 96.5 I think.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that the antenna isn't amplified...I learned my amplification lesson when using an indoor - basically I found that if you amplify garbage, you get more garbage...

Considering putting a rotator up there, which I'm pretty sure would help. Just have to find a friend who enjoys heights to go up there. I could go up, but you'd have to call the fire dept to come and get me back down :) What a wimp.

I notice a lot of "flickering" type of intereference on WLWT and channel 2 (NBC out of Dayton) on the anolog stations. The other analogs pretty much don't even show up much at all... With the exception of channel 22 out of Dayton, which is nearly crystal clear - but I cannot get their digital station for some reason...

I do get WXIX digital, even though their anolog station is just plain awful - all black and white and you can't make out what's on the screen at all.

Can't really say I'm getting any ghosting, as most of the analogs are so poor that I cannot make out what is on the screen at all.

Smackman,

hmmm ... It sounds like you are getting about exactly what would happen if the antenna is amplified but for some reason there is no power being supplied to the amplifier ...Or, a connection(or the balun/matching tranformer which "adapts" the 300 ohm balanced load from the antenna to the 75 ohm unbalanced coax is bad) is bad and the antenna is not even really "hooked up" ...

Also -- Do you have anything in the line between the receiver+the antenna besides coax, f-connectors and the balun to hook coax up to antenna? Are you using diplexers to "share" the single run of coax for Sat+OTA ? For simplicity's(and probably for the sake of best performance) sake, probably best to use a seperate coax run for OTA antenna, at least for "testing" purposes ...

According to Winegard site, however - as you mention -- the GS-1000 should be an unamplified antenna, and the pic they show of GS-1100(I assume a newer model of it) indicates that it is more of a "standard" sort of antenna design with multiple elements, instead of the 1 piece "bat wing" sort of design of the other, amplified sensar antennas ...

Weak signals in black and white with "clean looking snow(ant races/etc)" are not caused by an interference issue . they are just weak signals, which is something you should not be having an issue with at your location ..... and even with "rabbit ears" what you are getting really doesn't make any sense at all from your location. You should really be getting pretty much Crystal clear signals from analog stations such as 19, or at least strong signals with ghosting ....

If 22 is coming in well, I'm not sure that is telling us much, as it could be coming in strong just "off the screws" or a piece of wire, as could be the case with any of the other Cincinnati/Dayton analog stations as well ... It also might indicate the antenna is aimed "more" towards Dayton than it is Towards Cincinnati, in which case Dayton analogs 2,7, 16, 26+45 should also be coming in well(as should the Dayton digital stations) --- With the GS-1100 shown on the winegard site, you would want to aim the "smallest end" of the antenna towards either the Dayton, or Cincinnati towers ... you probably won't be able to get both Dayton and Cincinnati stations with any antenna out there(no matter if it says it is "bi-directional) without a rotor, or 2nd antenna setup on 2nd feedline with A/B switch before the receiver to switch between the two ..

Thanks Nightwatchman...

I do know that the antenna has it's own dedicated coax run from the antenna all the way in to the back of my D* HD STB...

Also, if I unscrew the connector from the back of the STB, I then get no signal at all.

Last week a buddy of mine went up on the roof and we rotated the antenna different ways. Currently, the wings run roughly east-west. We rotated them to face north-south, trying to hit the 10-15 degree setting that antennaweb.org states the Dayton towers are from my address. This made everything a lot worse. Rotated 180 degrees from there so the opposite end was facing north and still didn't get any better reception... We then opted to go back to where it was originally so that I could at least get the stations I was getting before, but he must have missed the alignment, as I'm down to getting just 1 digital station reliably, hence wanting to put up a rotator.

I never noticed if one end of that antenna was longer than the other or not. Either I have to get the gumption to scurry up on the roof myself or get my friend back over there and check it out.

This past weekend I tried using one of the big outdoor antennas. This sucker was like 10 feet long and had elements sticking out all over it. I set it out back in the back yard, which has a clear line of sight to the north and west... Ran a piece of coax to the STB (50' run of coax) hooked to the 75-300ohm thingy on the antenna - I couldn't get any reception at all on digital channels, and only very week on analog channels out of Dayton. Even with a clean line of sight to Dayton, being only 10 feet off the ground must have been causing some problems. I didn't want to use that antenna anyway, too doggone big for my tastes.

I'm pretty much at a loss as far as what to do from here...

Smackman,

I live down Tylersville Road, in West Chester, and I also have some interference on WDTN and WLWT analogs, so there could be a connection with WLW. I have experience with antennas like the one you are using, I have one on my travel trailer. All I can say about these antennas is they are not the best. They are affected by multi-path and are not high gain antennas. If you still have the bigger antenna, I would try that. I have a 12 foot antenna in my attic and I get all Cincinnati stations and most of the Dayton digitals off the back end of the antenna.

I couldn't get my Winegard OTA to work until I bought this amplifier from Radio Shack - even though it says 'amplified' on my OTA.

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F010%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D2505

I have this located right behind my satellite/OTA receiver.

Originally posted by Junkyarddogg

I live down Tylersville Road, in West Chester, and I also have some interference on WDTN and WLWT analogs, so there could be a connection with WLW


What sort of interference is it? Static? "sparkles"? That's not from WLW, it's impulse noise - Electrical interference such as what cokebear is having problems with ..... It is common problem on lo VHF channels 2-6(54-88MHZ), and probably especially so with indoor antennas, in proximity to various appliances or A/C wiring ...

If it's from WLW, you'll be able to see the signal modulation change(strange "video" effects on your TV) which will correspond directly(and simultanously) with the audio being broadcast on WLW, and you might also hear the audio from WLW in a "muffled sense" on WDTN/WLWT analog audio ..


Originally posted by smackman
Currently, the wings run roughly east-west.....

I never noticed if one end of that antenna was longer than the other or not.


The unamplifed Sensar antenna shown on Winegard website here: http://www.winegard.com/offair/sensar.htm

In the pic with the DS-1000 mount(to mount with sat dish) in lower left of page is the the "unamplifeid" sensar II antenna, and it DOES NOT have "wings" ... It has multiple elements according to the pic + the caption ...

The other Sensar antennas(the ones with "wings" that don't have a "small side" to them)shown on Winegard website are amplifed models, and require power supplied via the coax from a power inserter to work correctly. Maybe its possible the antenna you have is one with "wings" and a non-amplified version of the sensar antenna, but I can find no such model listed on the winegard site.

But again, aside from what you are seeing on WDTN 2/WLWT 5(which could be interference, or it could be a sign of a bad connection somewhere, or it may even be happening because a amp in the antenna is not receiving the power it needs to operate) what you are experiencing with weak analog signals is exactly what would happen if a amplifier inside the antenna casing is not receiving power along the coax from the power supply(power inserter). If the Sensar antenna you have is a amplified model, the power inserter should have came with the antenna when you purchased it .... If it's an antenna which DirecTV installers put up for you, who knows .... You put the power inserter somewhere in the house so you can plug it into a A/C circut, and it sends power along the coax to power the amplifier in the antenna ..

The Radio shack part which dusterscott mentioned is a distribution amplifier, it does not supply power to amplifier in the antenna via the coax(it doesn't send any sort of power output anywhere), thus, without current to the amp, the non-powered circutry in effect "blocks" most of the signal from the antenna, resulting in weak signals, MUCH lower in signal strength than what the antenna is actually picking up .... IF it is the case dusterscott is using a amplifed Sensar antenna(as seems to be the case since that's what it says -- Unless D* installers removed the amp or they got unamplified versions from winegard with "amplfied" still printed on the case or wwhatever) without the required power inserter, the distribution amp is probably just helping those weak signals just enough that he can achieve reception, in which case he is just very lucky that it's doing so ....

In any event, you'd be better off with a antenna such as a CM3016, or RS VU90, anyway -- with rotor to be able to receive both dayton+Cincinnati stations. I'd probably replace the "sensar" with one of those, aim it towards Cincy or Dayton(before getting the rotor) and see what you get ... You won't have to worry about "amplifiers" inside the antenna/etc or if it's powered or not with a VU90 or CM3016, just that your properly aiming the antenna and have good connections between antenna+receiver. Both of those models are small~medium sized VHF/UHF combo antennas of good conventional design, are inexpensive, and are much better antennas than the sensar, and are also available at Radio Shack(the RS models) or lowe's (CM3016 -- Not the CM3010 "steathtenna" which is about the same sort of "coat hanger" as the sensar). The RS VU-75 is probably the "smallest" VHF/UHF combo antenna out there, and it is also better than the sensar antennas and might be enough for you as well, but, it's UHF section is on the weak side and I'd recommend stepping up to the VU90 for a little better performance ....


Update: Ok, in case you missed it ... Right on the Winegard sensar antenna page, desribing the Sensar III models(I assume the sensar II models are the GS-2000 and GS-1000) it says:


Model GS-2200 amplified antenna is recommended for areas 10 to 55 miles away from transmitters. Includes 117 VAC power supply , easy-to-install mast clamp assembly.

Model GS-1100, non-amplified, is recommended for reception in metropolitan areas up to 25 miles away from transmitters.

-----------------------------------------------------

Proper installation of The power supply for GS-2200(and I assume the older amplified model as well), which sends current along the coax to power the amplifier in the antenna --- is required, otherwise, basically the unpowered circutry in the amp will likely greatly attenuate the signals coming in off the antenna itself ... A distribution amp from Radio shack will NOT send the necessary power to the amplifier .... It's not a power supply, or power "inserter" as they are sometimes called, and does not output any sort of "current" that could power the circutry in the amplfier, which is located inside the casing of the antenna itself ...

Not only would you have received the power supply with the amplified models of the sensar antenna when you purchased it, but you should have also received instructions on how to install the antenna(and power supply) ... If a installer put in the antenna for you, of course "all bets are off" ....