Cincinnati, OH - HDTV [Text View] - Page 12

Nitewatchman

02-22-05, 07:47 PM

Smackman,

Cool, at least you found a way to enjoy HD ... Sounds like to me you've probably got a bad connection somewhere between the STB and Sensar antenna, could be even INSIDE the antenna ... unless you "jiggled it" enough that any bad connection inside your STB began working OK when you disconnected/reconnected the other antenna/etc ... Of course, the outside connection of the coax to the sensar needs to be waterproof as well, otherwise moisture ingress would result ... It sounds more like a bad connection to me though .... Otherwise, if you hadn't gotten good results "for a while" from the outdoor antenna, I'd still wonder if you've actually got the amplfied version of the sensar and are not sending the power to it it needs from the required power supply ...

The outdoor sensar should work a bit better than indoor rabbit ears -- but not by a large degree, as it pretty much IS "outdoor" rabbit ears ...

-----------------------------------------

Dusterscott,

I really don't know how to be effective to explain this to you, but I'll try this again .... that RS amp can NOT power the amplifer in an antenna ...you need a power supply that sends the apprpriate amount of current/voltage for that -- I'm sure you can order one from Winegard if necessary.

The radio shack amp you have doesn't send current along the coax, it just does it's "work" on the signals coming FROM the antenna ... Basically, all it can do is compensate for splitting the signal(to run to multiple sets/etc)+ the signal loss in any coax run between the amp and the TV ... Not between the antenna and amp - that's why we use "mast mount amplifiers which get their power from a power supply that sends power to the amp through the coax ...AND it can also lower the overall noise figure of the system(which is what is probably helping you the most) ....

Again, either the preamp is helping you out because #1)the Sensar antenna you are using does not actually HAVE an amp in it(maybe D* installed it that way without a "amplified" circut board even if it might say "amplfied" on the antenna -- I do not know), or because #2) it's just helping you enough with the weak signals that are coming from the antenna with the unpowered amplifier ....

It is hard to say, but I expect, if it's #1), You'll get fairly "clear" signal(it might be a little snowy however) on say analog channel 38, and quite clear analog signals on channel 19, 48, 64, but if it's #2), you might get a lot of snow on 38, and even the high power analogs may be a little snowy ....

Analogs 5,9,12,19,48,64 received OTA(not via satellite) should be pretty much(or nearly so) "crystal clear" from your location, if it's #1 I'd expect that to be the case, if it's #2, I expect it wouldn't be the case ... Also, if it's #1), I'd expecct you to be getting WCVN-DT and all it's digital program services -- Including PBS HD on 54-4 from 8-11pm every evening ... If it's #2), I doubt you'd be able to receive WCVN-DT, but who knows ..

IN any event, I wouldn't worry about it as long as you are getting "perfect reception", and if it's #1), you're all set anyway ... If it's #2) however, and there really is an amp in the antenna, I'd get the proper power supply and install it properly ....

I wouldn't think so since you removed the diplexers/etc -- but -- just in case I suppose there is another possibility ... #3) Is it possible that there IS a power injector in the line somewhere you don't know about which D* installed .... Of course, it would have to be plugged into a A/C outlet, probably inside your house, but I suppose it also could be in a "waterproof box" outside ....

dusterscott

02-22-05, 08:47 PM

I get 5-1, 9-1, 12-1, 14-2 through 14-6, 19-1, 48-1 through 5, and 64-1 (all HD stations) on the Sensar. Signal strength (I know it's not a true measurment) on the Sammy receiver is 50 - 75% on the HD channels and I can't see any flaws in the picture (looks great). As far as analog channels go, I get 5, 7 (Dayton), 9, 12, 19, 22, 38, 43, 45, 48 and 64. The picture is snowy on the analogs although the audio is clear.

smackman

02-22-05, 09:16 PM

I've been trying to mess with my indoor rabbit ears a little to get more channels. It seems there is a sweet spot that if I move the slightest bit out of, I'll loose some of the channels.

So now I'm wondering what the best indoor antenna might be... I'm sure people have lots of opinions on this and everyone's situation is going to be a bit different. I've heard alot of good things about a Zenith Silver Sensor or something along those lines. Anyone using those?

I'd like to get something with a little more pull to it than my old antenna, but don't want something big and I don't think anything amplified is going to work, either, considering the tower...

cokebear

02-22-05, 09:54 PM

Well smackman for indoor it's either this one from Zenith
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/silver.html

or this one from RS
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=930%2D0998

Both of these are UHF only and I have no clue what is best for VHF although I got fair reception with the cheapest I could find at WalMart.

In the Nati

02-22-05, 10:06 PM

First post, I hope you can help.

I live in Hyde Park here in Cincinnati on Grandin Ridge Dr. (45208). Big hill and trees to the north--at least 30 feet from roof line. But good view south and west.

I have the HR-10-250. Terk TV-44 gets nadda attached to the Dish. ABC is on VHF, correct? Do I need a combo UHF/VHF antenna? Can you recommend a specific model? I'm willing to pass up the WB HD station to avoid a rotator (TIVO means everything to me! I'd hate to miss recording a program because I left the antenna pointed somewhere else).

The TV has a built in HD tuner, but I'd rather take advantage of the TIVO software in the HR-10-250.

Will a small directional work? Medium directional? I realize the Terk is awful, but given the size of the hill to the north, I don't think I have a chance of getting stations from Dayton.

Thanks for any and all suggestions.

Nitewatchman

02-22-05, 10:12 PM

It is hard to say, but smackman MIGHT also get enough signal from WCPO-DT(uses VHF 10, the only VHF digital station in Cincinnati or dayton currently, all the others broadcast on UHF) on a Silver sensor or RS DBT(the two antennas in links cokebear provided). Those are the two best indoor settop antennas I know of, but they are UHF antennas. "Rabbit ears" are the best indoor, settop VHF antenna I know of .. If necessary, you would use a VHF/UHF joiner such as CM#0549 to combine VHF/UHF antennas(not a splitter used backwards) ... RS has a VHF/UHF joiner/combiner as well, but I can't find it on their website ... Of course, you lose a slight bit of signal through the insertion loss of the combiner ...

The unamplifed(if so) sensar on the roof should really work better than just about any indoor antenna though ... at least for either the Cincinnati or Dayton stations ... must be a bad "connection" or something somewhere ...

Originally posted by dusterscott
I get 5-1, 9-1, 12-1, 14-2 through 14-6, 19-1, 48-1 through 5, and 64-1 (all HD stations) on the Sensar. Signal strength (I know it's not a true measurment) on the Sammy receiver is 50 - 75% on the HD channels and I can't see any flaws in the picture (looks great). As far as analog channels go, I get 5, 7 (Dayton), 9, 12, 19, 22, 38, 43, 45, 48 and 64. The picture is snowy on the analogs although the audio is clear.

It's hard to say, but I'd guess you are probably using #2 described in my last post then .... 5,9,12,19 especially, but 48+64, and probably 38 s well(with the antenna aimed at Cincinnati) shouldn't be "snowy" at all from your location, for 5,9,12+19 again, especially even if you were just using a pair of outdoor rabbit ears(probably if they were placed indoors near a window facing the towers either).. You could aim your other antenna towards Cincinnati temporarily and that should give you a good idea .... I'd bet you'll probably even see WCVN-DT (KET/PBS - HD on 54-4 8pm-11pm nightly), it's analog on 54, as well as Cincy analogs 25+61 with it to some extent, and that the snow you are seeing will go away from the other analog stations you are seeing with the sensar ....

So, if you're sure your Sensar has the amplifier, it's up to you but, I'd get the required power supply from Winegard and put it just before your A/B switch, and get rid of the RS amp. If the Sensar actually DOESN'T have the amp, of course adding the power supply would do nothing, except maybe make things worse. But, if it does have one, The amp in the preamp should work much better(since it's not "working" at all currently), and the antenna itself should also work much better if the internal amplfier is actually being used, as I said before, having that amp turned "off" greatly attenuates the signal coming off the antenna(it's much worse than having the non-amplified version of the sensar as the non-powered amp circutry will "block" the signal coming from the antenna), and would explain why the analog channels are "snowy" ...

On the HD channels, as long as you've got enough signal to be at or over the threshold required for good DTV reception, the picture quality doesn't get any better with more signal. And, I'd guess you are probably barely at the threshold for good DTV reception if it's the sensar with the amp(that isn't being used) you are using ...

And you are correct, the "signal meter" on your receiver usually doesn't tell you much about the actual signal strength ... It can even show high readings with weak signals just over the required threshold for DTV reception ..

Nitewatchman

02-22-05, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by In the Nati
First post, I hope you can help.

I live in Hyde Park here in Cincinnati on Grandin Ridge Dr. (45208). Big hill and trees to the north--at least 30 feet from roof line. But good view south and west.

I have the HR-10-250. Terk TV-44 gets nadda attached to the Dish. ABC is on VHF, correct? Do I need a combo UHF/VHF antenna? Can you recommend a specific model? I'm willing to pass up the WB HD station to avoid a rotator (TIVO means everything to me! I'd hate to miss recording a program because I left the antenna pointed somewhere else).

The TV has a built in HD tuner, but I'd rather take advantage of the TIVO software in the HR-10-250.

Will a small directional work? Medium directional? I realize the Terk is awful, but given the size of the hill to the north, I don't think I have a chance of getting stations from Dayton.

Thanks for any and all suggestions.

Well, I could only find "Grandin Rd" in Hyde park(might be my software), but assuming you are near there ...

#1). WCPO(ABC) tower looks to be only about 2~3 miles from you ... And yes, they are on VHF, the rest of the digital stations in Cincinnati(and dayton) broadcast on UHF ... You should be able to pick up most of the Cincinnati stations with a "paperclip" from indoors ... I'm exaggerating a little, but not much .. Everything except WB, KET+ TBN Low power analog is less than 5 or so miles from you, roughly directly west ... Unfortunetly however, I show WCVN-DT(KET/PBS HD/etc) at roughly 202 degree bearing from Hyde park, WSTR-DT at 323 degrees ... everything else except WKRC about 265~266 degrees, WKRC at 251 degrees(only because it's a couple blocks south of WCPO tower LOL, and given your proximity) .... That might be a little different depending upon your exact location .....

#2). The terrain to the north really doesn't look too bad in that area .. I wouldn't worry much about the trees either. I assume you are saying the top of the hill to your north is 30ft higher than the roofline ... That might not be as much of a problem as you might think at the 42 miles distant I show you from Dayton towers -- The Dayton DTV transmitting antennas are up there nice and high -- ... If it were 100feet, or 300+feet and the latter would be the case if you were a little futher "south" and right on the banks of Ohio river ...., I would be talking "differently" ...

#3). IF you want to try indoors, the antennas at link in cokebear's post would probably work well for you ...

#4). Outdoors ... especially If it's just the digital stations your interested in ... Something like the CM4221 4 bay bowtie antenna might be a good idea ...It's directional, but can also work fairly well over about a 60 degree spread ... You might even be able to point it directly West and get everything, or you might be able to aim it between WB+ most of the others and get everything except WCVN/etc ... You'd probably have to aim it towards Dayton to have much luck there though ... A higher gain antenna with better directivity such as CM4228, CM4248, antennas direct XG91/etc/etc might be a better choice if you're really looking for Dayton reception, but even a CM4221(CM3021 is the same antenna, different numbers are used sometimes) might be fine as well, and I think would be a good overall "choice" for you, especially if there is a chance you might be able to get say WB + everything else besides WCVN on the same heading from your location ..... It's quite inexpensive as well, here's one place where you can get one : www.solidsignal.com

#5). A Small, inexpensive VHF/UHF combo should be fine as well(RS vu75, VU90, or CM3016), although, i'm not so sure you would even need the VHF "portion" for even good reception of Cincinnati VHF analogs from your distnace from the towers .. Maybe so for 5, and defintely so for Dayton 2 or 7 analogs .... It of course won't perform as well on UHF as a antenna such as CM4221, or even Radio shack's UHF only yagi(they used to call it "U75 R, but I think they use a Cat # for it now) ....

#6). I'm a little concerned that you said you aren't getting anything off the dish clip on antenna ... Does that include analog signals? One would think you should be able to get something something with it, even if it's just ghosty multipath laden analog stations .... Not to say those are great antennas, they aren't ... And, at your distance, if it's amplfied(most dish clip on's are I believe), besides the ghosting/mulitpath problems your're probably having, the amp in the antenna could very well be getting swamped ...

#7) I'd run a seperate line to whatever new antenna you get rather than using diplexers to use the same coax that's going to the dish ....

#8) Rotor ... I'd try an antenna such as CM4221 first with a little rotation by "hand" first to see what you get, and to find out whether or not you might want to add a rotor .... If you end up needing to aim antennas in only 2 directions, 2 antennas(on seperate feedlines), with A/B switch before receiver to select between them would probably be 1). more convienent, 2). less expensive, 3.) no more "difficult" to run the 2nd coax run than it would to run the rotor control cable ...

Update: Oh, almost forgot ... One problem with WB for you currently is that their current antenna pattern for their digital station doesn't squirt much power in your direction ... This is likely to make it more important for you to use "on target" antenna aiming for them, which might not work out so well for reception of the other Cincinnati stations, even with an antenna with fairly wide beamwidth such as CM4221 ...

Just some ideas, there are certianly other antenna solutions out there that would likely work for you as well ...

Good luck and let us know how it goes ...

dusterscott

02-23-05, 09:02 AM

Thanks Jeff. I've seen these power supplies on eBay for under $20 so I think I'll start looking for one. I could still use my amplifier on the feed from the RS OTA (the one pointed at Dayton towers). I'm using the RS OTA for an FM antenna too and use a splitter to connect to my FM receiver and my satellite/ota receiver. So the amplifier will compensate for the small amount of signal loss that I'm getting at the splitter.

dusterscott

02-23-05, 09:24 AM

I had talked to an engineer at Winegard 6 months ago and he said the power supply that should have come with the Sensar was the PS-9370. Here's a link to a picture of it...

http://www.winegard.com/offair/powersupplies.htm

Nitewatchman

02-23-05, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by dusterscott
Thanks Jeff. I've seen these power supplies on eBay for under $20 so I think I'll start looking for one. I could still use my amplifier on the feed from the RS OTA (the one pointed at Dayton towers). I'm using the RS OTA for an FM antenna too and use a splitter to connect to my FM receiver and my satellite/ota receiver. So the amplifier will compensate for the small amount of signal loss that I'm getting at the splitter...

I had talked to an engineer at Winegard 6 months ago and he said the power supply that should have come with the Sensar was the PS-9370.

I have a Winegard PS-9370 power supply here, but I'm afraid I need it ... If you can find one for under $20, that sounds like a pretty good deal. If you can't, there is a Winegard Distributor in Dayton. I've bought stuff from them before(Including a few weeks ago), with good results. Here is their address and phone #:

RANKIN & HOUSER INC
2620 E RIVER RD
Dayton, OH 45439
Phone: 937 298 9823
Fax: 937-298-1996

If they don't have it in stock, they'll order it from Winegard.

In addition to compensating for the splitter, since it is Inside the antenna, The amplfier in the Sensar will also compensate for the signal loss in the coax between the antenna and your TV. It should also lower the overall noise figure of the system that the receiver sees, it's probably better at that than the RS amp you are using.

The BIGGEST difference you'll see when you get the power supply though is the effect you've been living with that occurs if the amplifier in the antenna is unpowered. Again, having the amplfier circutry unpowered greatly attenuates the signal coming from the antenna "wings" - probably by 20db or more - which is a lot. (15-20db "extra" attenuation probably be about the same, or worse than you would get if you were to stick a unamplfied version of Sensar in your attic), and much "worse" than if you were using the unamplfied version of the Sensar on the roof.

Attached are screenshots that show what happens if I disconnect the Winegard PS-7070 power supply that feeds power to my Winegard AC-4990 UHF mast mount amplifier. Although it's a different antenna and different amp/power supply, the same thing happens with a amplified Sensar that's not getting power. Screenshots taken with digital camera, I accidently cropped a little too much off bottom of screen, and forgot to put up the channel 19 "display" on the TV when I took the bottom right photo, but I think you can get the idea.

At top left is screenshot of WXIX 19 analog with power being Supplied to the mast mount preamp from the power supply.

At bottom left is screenshot of WXIX 19 analog with the power supply removed from the line, and therefore no power getting supplied to the amp.

At bottom right is screenshot of WXIX 19 analog with the power supply still removed, but with a Radio Shack distribution amp(Cat #15-1107 - I think it's the older model of the one you are using, has adjustable gain control - turned all the way up in this case)in line just before the TV.

dusterscott

02-23-05, 11:01 AM

The pictures show the various scenarios very well. Now I'm anxious to hook up the power supply to the Sensar. I found a PS-9370 online about an hour ago for $26 including shipping from summitsource.com. And they're out of Fort Wayne so it should be here tomorrow.

smackman

02-23-05, 12:36 PM

Dusterscott -

Let us know how it works out. I'll give it a try as well, if you report good results.

dusterscott

02-23-05, 12:52 PM

Will do.

Nitewatchman

02-23-05, 12:59 PM

It won't work if you are using the unamplfied model of the Sensar -- obviously the amplfier has to actually be present inside the antenna in order for sending power to it to do any good ...

The unamplfied version of Sensar II should be the GS1000(has the "bat wings" unlike the pic showing their newest Sensar III unamplfied model, the GS1100), the amplfied version should be the GS2000 (Sensar III "new" version being GS2200) ..

jim tressler

02-23-05, 03:00 PM

I have the Sensar II - unamplified - model is GS1000 - works great from my house in Hamilton Township.. I sit at elevation 860 i believe, so I am well above the towers. My friend has the sensar 3, which is the same size, slightly different design.. he is about 4-5 miles out past me - about 27 miles from the towers and his works well.. he hasnt had any dropouts yet.. however, i think he is at the limit of the antenna.. I noticed as we shortened the cable run the "signal strength" got better..

jim

cokebear

02-23-05, 03:48 PM

Jeff, In the Natti should not be having any trouble getting a good signal, my setup is basically the same except mines a Phillips and not a Terk. The only channel I have any problems with is WCPO. Unless he's getting so much ghosting that the signal is unuseable. That is one problem I can see a lot of with this type of antenna.

Nitewatchman

02-23-05, 04:56 PM

Jim,

You say your friend's unamplfied Sensar III is "slightly" different design ... I take it the picture of it(GS1100) as described in the caption on lower left side here is incorrect, and it also has the "bat wing" type of design?

http://www.winegard.com/offair/sensar.htm

Also, In the actual "specsheet" for the antenna winegard(link to the Sensar III spec sheet farther below in this post) puts out the picture shows it to look like all the other Sensar's I've seen, with the "Bat wing" design ....

Be careful when estimating distances to towers ... It's "crow fly" distance, you can't use the driving mileage/etc ...

For instance, "straight line distance" wise (what the TV signals travel along) - The Dayton TV tower antenna farm and most of Cincinnati towers are 42 miles apart.... WLW Tower in Mason is 19~20 Miles from most Cincinnati Towers(including WLWT), 24 miles from Dayton towers .. South Lebanon is 22~23 miles from Cincinnati towers, 24.5 miles from Dayton towers ...

Most stations in the area have a general coverage area of about 55~65 miles radius, assuming an antenna with 10db gain, mounted outdoors at 30ft AGL is used on the fringe area, and there are no "significant enough" terrain issues present at the receiving location ...

Mileage ratings on antennas are pretty much meaningless ... All they really tell you is, lower numbers generally mean it's not as good of an antenna as higher numbers from any given manufactuer ....
Transmitting and receiving antenna height as it relates to curvature of Earth is the main limiting factor concerning receivable distance of TV/DTV signals .. Any nearby terrain issues(if significant enough) can be as much as a limiting factor as the curvature of earth, especially on UHF, and especially on High UHF channels .... less Power coming from the stations is somewhat less of an "limiting" issue in most cases, although using a low gain "coat hanger" sort of antenna won't help any if the station is running low power levels ...

The important info for an antenna are gain (expressed in DB relative to a "reference" 1/2 wave dipole(dbd) or a 'theoretical" 1/2 wave dipole(dbi), and directivity ... Very generally speaking, the larger the antenna and the more elements it has, the more gain it has and the better the directivity ..

Although you'll find actual gain figures for Winegard antennas which offer any sort of performance better than a coat hanger, you'll find that in the specs on the Sensar antennas, they don't even tell you what the gain of the antenna is, likely for good reason(it probably doesn't have any). It shows the amplifier on the GS2200 with a 12db gain(remember though, it can't actually add more "signal gain", or in other words "boost the signal", you can't get any more "gain" except what the antenna can provide) figure and 3db noise figure ...

Here are the specs in PDF format for the Sensar III(unamplified+amplified versions) from Winegard, Including polar plots(basically shows the antennas directivity ) :

http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/WC-810.pdf

The Sensar II models probably aren't much, if any different "spec wise". If you notice the polar plots in the specs, the antenna is really only "bi-directional" on VHF, moreso on lo-vhf than Hi-VHF. Bi-directional really isn't a good thing, and especially so if you are located, say between WCPO and WBNS ... The specs on the preamp do seem to indicate it should work fairly well, with a max input level at 350,000 microvolts ... This means it shouldn't overload very easily ... The amp also includes a Fixed FM trap(meaning you can't turn it off or on) that atteunates the FM band by -15db, which is a good thing if you are using the amplfied sensar for TV reception, but not so good if you are trying to use it to receive weak FM signals ..

The DTV transmitting antennas on the Cincinnati towers range between 1099FT Above sea level for WCVN-DT in N KY, to 1579FT for WCPO, to almost 1800FT for WSTR-DT .... Not that it matters, but the ground the base of the Cincinnati towers sits on ranges from 565FT for WXIX, and between 800FT and 913FT for all the other cincy station towers ... Dayton towers sit on ground that's about 900 Feet ...

It's any nearby terrain that is NEAR and "above" your location that sits in the signal path that can be an issue .... Generally speaking, the closer you are to the towers, the higher the nearby hill has to be in order for it to be an issue ... That being said, the hills in Cincinnati are high enough that in some cases(which should be fairly rare for the most part) if you are on the "wrong side", and at the bottom of a very nearby hill, it can cause problems even 4 miles away from the tower ... But in general, you may be surprised in some cases at how difficult terrain can be but receivable signals can still be present ..

--------------------------------

cokebear,

But for your location, your "dish", and therefore the antenna itself is actually "aimed" right at the Cincinnati TV towers .... That isn't the case in in the natti's situation, except where WCVN is concerned ... --

Yes, it's not an overly "directional" antenna, but just like rabbit ears placed in a horizontally polarized position, or any horizontally polarized "simple dipole" it is "inherently" directional, and will work best(given the way it is clipped on the dish) -- from the direction the dish is also pointed or 180 degrees opposite ... For you, the 110+119 sats your dish 500 is aimed at lie to the SW and in pretty much the SAME direction as the Cincinnati towers, For in the natti, the satellites are still to SW(or maybe S too dpending upon which dish+satellites he is using) but the Cincinnati towers lie more to the west of his location, and there fore more off the side of the terk antenna, probably enough so that it's right at the spot where the signal is going to be at it's worst from the Cincinnati Towers(except for WCVN which should be right "on target" pretty much if the dish is picking up any of the 101/110/119 D* birds), and multipath is going to do its worse, especally given that he is so close to the towers which often makes multipath conditions much worse to begin with ...

Now -- that being said, as I said, I would still expect that natti ought to be picking up at least Something off the terk antenna, even if it's just nasty looking unwatchable analog signals filled with ghosts, unless perhaps it is not properly hooked up/etc ...

------------------

The dish clip on antennas, a coathanger, the Channel master Stealhtenna, the Sensar antennas are all antennas that seriously compromise performance in order to be able to be either clipped on the dish, or so they are "smaller" or supposedly more pleasing to the eye/etc/etc ... They all fit in the "coat hanger" antenna design catagory, meaning they are about as good of an antenna for TV reception as a coat hanger is, some might be as good as "rabbit ears", except that you can't adjust them from inside the comfort of your home ... At least you CAN aim a Sensar or a steathtenna though, about to the same extent you can aim rabbit ears or a coat hanger, which is something you really can't do with an antenna clipped on to the dish ... NOW .. Here's the thing ... Will a Coat hanger Antenna work better OUTSIDE than the best of hi-gain, directional antennas placed indoors? In most cases, probably so, because placing the antenna indoors greatly attenuates signal, usually well beyond the actual "signal gain" the best of antenna provides, and also, putting the antenna indoors usually increases multipath and impulse noise/RFI interference problems that especially are a problem on VHF, lo-VHF especially from home appliances, nearby wiring, PC/network hardware/etc/etc/etc ...

jim tressler

02-23-05, 08:13 PM

my fault.. I just punched my address into antennaweb - I am 22-23 miles from the towers - and my friend is about 25-26.

The picture on that webpage is the sensar III - I can confirm that.. if you look at the unit that they show attaced to the dish at the bottom of the page, its a sensar II - ie.. the main "housing" (for lack of a better term) is "boxier" (if thats even a word) just like on my sensar II - whereas its more of a "teardrop" on the sensar III - other than that, the "wings" on both of them are very similar - the only other change i noted between the II and III was a slightly different mounting bracket.

Nitewatchman

02-23-05, 08:41 PM

Jim,

I guess I am confused concerning where you are located. I thought you were in Southern Butler County, or Northern Hamilton County, in which case you couldn't be any farther than about 15~18 miles(not sure what km would be but 24-26 km sounds about right) or so(less for WSTR) from all the Cincinnati towers except WCVN in N KY(about 6 miles South of the others) which would be about 21~24 miles or so from N Hamiliton County/ Southern Butler county ... For instance, Downtown Hamilton is about 18 miles from Cincinati towers, Monroe/trenton about 24~26, and again WLW tower/the old Bethany VOA site is right around 19~20 miles distant from Cincinnati towers(WB being a little closer as it's farther north) ... SR 122 at I-75 exit 32(middletown exit) is 28 miles from WLWT/WXIX/WCPO/WKRC towers ...

LOL ... This is probably MY fault .... I'm not talking about the picture on the BOTTOM RIGHT of that page, I'm talking about the picture in the BOTTOM LEFT corner of the sensar webpage, shown with the DS-1000 mount.

It shows a antenna with about 7 elements(it looks somewhat like a CM2001 antenna, I'm sure winegard has a similair antenna as well) --- It's probably just me having a brain fart, but I could have swore the picture's caption WAS previously identifing the antenna in the picture with the DS-1000 mount as a GS-1100 unamplfied sensar, but now I see the caption just says it's a "off-air" antenna ...

That was the one I'm was talking about. It doesn't have a "housing". I see now that it is actually just showing a "generic" off air antenna instead of a sensar antenna, and obviously (as is indicated in the spec sheet for both GS-1100+GS2200), both the non-amplfied and ampflifed version of the Sensar III are still of the rabbit ear/coat hanger design "class" of antennas ...

jim tressler

02-23-05, 09:47 PM

lol.. I live right behind kings island.. just off of the us22/3 (montgomery Road) and SR 48 intersection.. I can see the kings island fireworks from my deck.. kind of nice on summer night with an ice cold budwiser! as far as the antenna.. no doubt the sensar is cheap (and in my case free from directv) - but for my purposes - it works and other than the one night where wcpo was a mess, it has not failed me yet! plus the wife doesnt mind it :)

jim

Nitewatchman

02-23-05, 10:35 PM

Ah that explains it ... I didn't realize there was a Hamilton twp in Warren County ...

I worked at KI in the mid 80's, and occasionally got to enjoy the nightly Rozzi's show from the park ... Then it was off to the watering hole at 20 mile stand ...

On the antenna, hey whatever works for you is the important thing, and I'm sure antennas such as the Sensar would work well for lots of folks in relatively strong signal areas(as long as they put it outside) who do not want a larger antenna but want/need a antenna that works somewhat on both VHF and UHF -- and especially so with DTV ... I use the VHF section on a stealthtenna(which probably isn't as good of antenna as the sensar) for reception of Dayton analog VHF 2+7 and Dayton Area FM's here ... WLWT 5 comes in crystal clear off the back side of it too, except when WEWS 5 Cleveland is booming in and adding some Co-channel interference ...

I do wish we had a antenna installer around here like the fellow in the article at link below around here though ... I have a feeling there would be many more folks enjoying OTA DTV/HD if #1). They KNEW about it, and #2). There was a easy to find installer(who knows what they are doing) to make it work for them for a reasonable cost :

http://www.publicopiniononline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050205/NEWS01/502050301/1002

cokebear

02-23-05, 11:45 PM

Hey Jeff I gotta question. I was looking through the CM and Winegard and RS sites at the different antennas. I have found a few such as the CM2001 or 3014 that are smaller and I might be able to mount to the roof of my balcony. There is one at RS in stock RS15-2153 (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D2151) so I got to wondering how much (too much?) would I be giving up if I didn't attach the wing boom elements to it so that it looks more like the CM3014? I can't seem to find the specs on it.

I could possibly attach it to the roof of the balcony with some hammer in staples and keep it pretty much out of sight. One more thing will a coat of paint harm it in any way?

Nitewatchman

02-24-05, 01:16 AM

updated:

shawn,

ummm ... "wing boom elements?" -- Oh, ok I loaded in the owners manual ... those are usually referred to as the UHF corner reflector, unless you want to use it for VHF only antenna I probably wouldn't get rid of those if I didn't have to, they are an important part of the antenna for UHF reception ...but, You would just have to try it and see ...

I wouldn't paint it, although it probably wouldn't hurt the performance too much, if any and i suppose if you have to you have too ... I recall a old thread about that somewhere and just remember there were some good reasons given for not painting ...

The link is for a RS VU75, it should be a better antenna than the two CM models you mentioned, at least with the UHF corner reflector(wing boom elements) in place ....

I don't know how well the stapling would work though(you want something that will provide some support for the boom), but I'm sure you can figure something out ... and putting it so close to (underside) of roof might not be a great idea either, but then again it might work fine, you'll just have to try it, and you don't want to attach it up there "permantly" mounted before you have it "aimed" for best results and placed in a sweet spot ... bungee cords or something similar if you could set it up might be a good idea, but might defeat your "purpose" to make it "hidden" ....

The mileage figures they give on CM site for CM2001 and CM3014 seem weird ... I'd think they should be the other way around ... I can tell you CM2001 isn't much of a "performer", the Sensar is probably just as good or maybe even a tad better ... Dayton Wintronic ( http://www.wintronic.com/daytonwintronic/index.htm ) handles all the CM stuff, bTW --- They stock antennas, but I don't know if they stock either of those(they should order anything CM has though if they don't have it in stock, I don't think lowe's will do that) ... CM3016 however, which a little bigger than VU75(but a little better too, more like the RS VU90) is available at lowe's(they had a couple in Middletown last time I was down there) ....

I can't find it now, but I recall once seeing a article that contained a pic of a VU75 or VU90 mounted up near the ceiling INSIDE an apartment(I think in a corner in a place where noone would hit their head on the thing), I thought it actually looked quite nice myself ;)

If you are looking for an antenna that would actually be SMALLER than the VU75 -- especially width wise, but still actually perform MUCH better for WCPO than any of the antennas discussed above -- you should look into this Ch 7-13 yagi from Winegard ( http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/ya-6713.pdf ) ... This antenna won't provide UHF reception however, it only works on VHF Ch 7-13 ... I provided info for Dayton Winegard distributor in one of my earlier posts ... You would need to combine it with a UHF antenna, such as say a silver sensor using a VHF/UHF joiner -- CM0549 - about $7 at dayton wintronic - you can find CM0549 it online in several places such as www.warrenelectronics.com as well ..

jim tressler

02-24-05, 08:39 AM

I think the thing that helps me is I sit very high compared to the surrounding terrain - I guess I have just been lucky with the OTA stuff :)

In the Nati

02-24-05, 11:04 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nitewatchman
[B]Jim,

--------------------------------

cokebear,

But for your location, your "dish", and therefore the antenna itself is actually "aimed" right at the Cincinnati TV towers .... That isn't the case in in the natti's situation, except where WCVN is concerned ... --

Yes, it's not an overly "directional" antenna, but just like rabbit ears placed in a horizontally polarized position, or any horizontally polarized "simple dipole" it is "inherently" directional, and will work best(given the way it is clipped on the dish) -- from the direction the dish is also pointed or 180 degrees opposite ... For you, the 110+119 sats your dish 500 is aimed at lie to the SW and in pretty much the SAME direction as the Cincinnati towers, For in the natti, the satellites are still to SW(or maybe S too dpending upon which dish+satellites he is using) but the Cincinnati towers lie more to the west of his location, and there fore more off the side of the terk antenna, probably enough so that it's right at the spot where the signal is going to be at it's worst from the Cincinnati Towers(except for WCVN which should be right "on target" pretty much if the dish is picking up any of the 101/110/119 D* birds), and multipath is going to do its worse, especally given that he is so close to the towers which often makes multipath conditions much worse to begin with ...

Now -- that being said, as I said, I would still expect that natti ought to be picking up at least Something off the terk antenna, even if it's just nasty looking unwatchable analog signals filled with ghosts, unless perhaps it is not properly hooked up/etc ...

------------------

Nitewatchman, Cokebear:

Thanks so much for the advice. I was not precise when I wrote that the Terk gets nadda; I don't get the NBC station at all; the other networks are unwatchable--one second of picture and sound followed by 4 seconds of jibberish. I guess I now know what multipath is!

The TV is set up in an enclosed cabinet in the basement--so I don't think an indoor antenna is an option. Furthermore, I only have a two R-G6 cable run going to the back of the TV. That's why I wanted to add the OTA signal to the satelite signal--keeping two lines and full TIVO capacity.

Nitewatchman, thanks for the advice about the hill directly to the north. Getting the Dayton stations may not be impossible. Is there a fixed antenna set up that can get both the Cincinnati and Dayton stations? Best advice is to try the CM-4221 and see what we get?

As for combining the OTA and satelite: how much am I comprising OTA PQ? Right now, I split one of the cable runs at the DTV box--to the OTA input and into satelite tuner 1. The second cable run goes directly into satetile tuner 2. Full TIVO capacity is the result. If I feed the OTA signal from one cable run into the Antenna input and use the other cable run to feed satelite into Tuner 1 (no spliting at all), would Tuner 2 show at least the OTA signals? It seems that the DTV internally splits the OTA signal and incorporates with Tuner 1 and 2. Will I end up with OTA and satelite on Tuner 1, and only OTA on Tuner 2?

Sorry for all the questions. Again, I appreciate the help.

jim tressler

02-24-05, 01:36 PM

nati - you are not compromising anything - the dss signal and ota signal are at opposite ends of the spectrum, so they can be combined and then split up at the tivo - what you would need to do is diplex the signal at the box so you would have 1 for ota and 1 for directv - keep in mind you cant split the dss signal - tuner 2 is dss only - so an ota signal into there does no good. since you have 2 rg-6 runs, I would combine the ota and satellite into 1 rg-6 run out of the multiswitch and then diplex it on the other end - put the 2nd run into input 2 - the tivo will split the ota.

make sense?

jim

Nitewatchman

02-24-05, 01:51 PM

updated/edited : Oh, first off keep in mind I am not familiar with D* equipment in an "on hand experience" manner, or which equipment in the natti is specifically using for his D*(direcTV) setup -- so I'm not sure what is "powered"(multiswitch/LNB/etc) from current supplied along the coax by the sat receiver, or if power(when necessary) is supplied from other sources/etc ... but with that in mind here goes :

Originally posted by In the Nati

Nitewatchman, Cokebear:

Thanks so much for the advice. I was not precise when I wrote that the Terk gets nadda; I don't get the NBC station at all; the other networks are unwatchable--one second of picture and sound followed by 4 seconds of jibberish. I guess I now know what multipath is!

With analog reception, Multipath shows up on the screen directly as ghosts, which can even be so bad to make the picture "roll", or be "gibberish" making it easy to diagnose.

With digital reception, it's not so easy to diagnose what sort of reception issue is causing what. Assuming you are talking about digital stations above, "1 second of picture followed by 4 seconds of jibberish" COULD be an indication of multipath, but it could also be an indication of any number of other issues. In your case, given your proximity to the towers you should be getting VERY strong signals from all the Cincinnati area stations -- assuming everything is installed and hooked up properly, and good connections to the antenna/and that if the antenna is a amplified model that is receiving power being supplied along the cable(coax) by either the sat receiver, or a power supply(power inserter) that came with the antenna ... and, given the antenna you are using, I expect the following two issues are the ones most likely to cause you problems -- it may be one or the other, or it may be BOTH :

#1). If it's a "amplified" antenna, the amplifier in the antenna could be overloading, which would spread extra "noise" all over the place. OR the front end of receiver(STB) is being overloaded by strong signals -- which usually isn't going to be likely if you are not using a preamp or "amplfied" antenna, but is more likely if you are, especially given your proximity to the transmitters.

1a). Most of those dish clip on antennas are amplified antennas I believe. They are designed to receive power from the satellite receiver via the coax(cable run), just like the LNB in the dish, and or multiswitch(if powered) for the E* equipment I am familar with does. How they are *- normally hooked up is, a piece of cable runs from the LNB on the dish to the antenna .. The antenna has a diplexer in it which allows a single coax(cable) run to "share" both the signals off the satellite, and the OTA signals off the antenna. The single run of coax then enters your house and you have another diplexer which "seperates" the signals from the antenna(goes to antenna input on your receiver), and the diplexer(s) also must allow the power to pass through from the receiver, along the coax to the LNB/Multiswitch(if they needs power)+amplfier(if present) in OTA antenna. A standard 2 way splitter would not allow that power to pass through, nor would it properly seperate DSS frequencies(which are WAY up there in the 10-11GHZ range if I recall correctly, and then are "downconverted" to lower frequencies in the ~1-2 GHZ range(If I recall correctly) by LNB) from OTA frequencies, which range from 54-88MHZ(VHF ch 2-6), 174-216MHZ(UHFch 7-13) to 470-806MHZ(UHF ch 14-69).

* - However, the BEST way to do it would be to run a seperate, dedicated cable run from the antenna to the Receiver(s)(STB's/etc), and get rid of the diplexers that allow the signals from the sat dish and the antenna to share a single coax run between the dish/OTA antenna and some point in your house where the diplexer seperates the sat/OTA signals into seperate cable runs. But, in this case, if the antenna you are using is a amplfied antenna, you would have to still supply power along the coax to power the amplfier in the antenna. Usually, amplified antennas come with a power inserter/power supply which you plug into a A/C outlet somewhere inside the house(before any splitters/etc which would block the power that needs to be sent to amplfier in antenna), but with those dish clip on antennas, they probably don't come with a power supply since, along with the diplexers, they are Made to be powered from the sat receiver itself(like the LNB on the dish). If the antenna DOES have a amplfier in it that is NOT receiving power for whatever reason, then(unless they have some sort of special "design" for the amplfied dish clip on antennas, which I doubt) the unpowered circutry in the amp in the antenna is going to SEVERELY atteunuate the signals coming off the antenna, almost to the point where it's like there isn't even an antenna hooked up there. See my earlier responses to dusterscott concerning his ampfiled sensar antenna -- same thing here ...

#2). Multipath echoes which your receiver can't correct for. Uncorrectable multipath is just seen as "noise" to the receiver. Multipath occurs when "portions" of the signal arrive at the antenna along different paths(such as reflections off buildings/etc), and at slightly different times than other "portions" of the signal, including the direct signal path(if there is one). The way to minimize multipath is to use a antenna with good directivity, usually with the antenna aimed at the signal source(the tower). Basically, The directional antenna then "rejects" more of signal coming in via the paths the multipath echoes which are causing problems, and gets more of the signal from the direct signal path, allowing the reciever to better compensate for any multipath echoes that still may be present.

Originally posted by In the Nati
The TV is set up in an enclosed cabinet in the basement--so I don't think an indoor antenna is an option.

You are right, basements are not usually good places for antennas, and if you were to use a indoor antenna, it would be best to run a feedline(coax) run for it to higher levels in your house. Near a window that faces the towers is often a good spot for an antenna, but you never know, an indoor antenna might work fine even inside a closet, or in the attic/etc(especially given your proximity to Cincinnati towers).

I'm certianly not saying you can expect good reception from your basement, But, then again you might be surprised what you might get with an indoor antenna in the basement from your location, given that you are in such a strong signal area .... And, the "simplest" solution is often a good one, especially given some of the below, and hooking up "rabbit ears" or a Silver sensor with a short bit of cable run between your OTA receiver and the antenna might be a good way for you to get a good idea concerning what may be "going on" ....

Originally posted by In the Nati

Furthermore, I only have a two R-G6 cable run going to the back of the TV. That's why I wanted to add the OTA signal to the satelite signal--keeping two lines and full TIVO capacity.

As for combining the OTA and satelite: how much am I comprising OTA PQ? Right now, I split one of the cable runs at the DTV box--to the OTA input and into satelite tuner 1. The second cable run goes directly into satetile tuner 2. Full TIVO capacity is the result. If I feed the OTA signal from one cable run into the Antenna input and use the other cable run to feed satelite into Tuner 1 (no spliting at all), would Tuner 2 show at least the OTA signals? It seems that the DTV internally splits the OTA signal and incorporates with Tuner 1 and 2. Will I end up with OTA and satelite on Tuner 1, and only OTA on Tuner 2?

Ok ..... Lets see if I hopefully can be somewhat clear about this this ...

I'm confused. I think Jim has it figured out, although I would not recommend diplexing OTA+DSS signals for the cable run(s) from the Dish/Antenna. I'd use a completely seperate cable run for OTA if at all possible, and in some cases(such as if mast mount preamp is used with a say, CM4221), you absolutely have to use a seperate run, because the voltage/etc. the amplfier needs is different than what the Sat receiver supplies to dish clip on amplfied antennas, LNB's/etc ...

I have to admit I am having hard time understanding exactly what you are saying here. For example ... about the DTV box(I assume you mean DirecTV?) internally splitting OTA signal and incorproating it with tuner 1 and tuner 2? ... That does not seem likely if Tuner1(your DirecTV HD receiver?) and tuner2(Your HD Tivo or Tivo unit?) ... Also I thought HDtivo's or Tivo's should also have a seperate Antenna input to allow you to record signals from OTA sources, although of course it would have to have a DTV(ATSC) receiver inside for OTA HD/DTV, a NTSC receiver to Tivo analog OTA broadcasts. On this fourm the abgreviations we use are :

"DTV" - means over the air digital television, stations can send a number of different resolutions via DTV, SD or HD. "ATSC" is the "standard" used for Digital, over the air Television, "NTSC" is the standard used for old fashioned over the air analog Television.

"D*" means "DirecTV".

"E*" means "dish network" for "echostar".

I'm not sure if you have everything hooked up correctly or not, as I don't know or understand from your comments how/or if the OTA signal is getting diplexed onto either both cable run(s), or just one or the other, as Jim noted, I think you would only need, and really would only want to diplex the OTA signals from the OTA antenna onto one coax run, you could then use a splitter(after the diplexer in the house) to send OTA feed to different receivers/etc.

I think It seems like you are saying you are diplexing the sat/OTA signals onto BOTH the same 2 coax runs coming from the satellite dish's LNB/multiswitch instead of having a dedicated cable run going from OTA antenna to your OTA(DTV) receiver(s). Although the latter would be the way to do it for best results IMO, and you can still split the feed from the antenna to seperate OTA receivers(DTV or analog) ...

You say you have a two cable RG6 run going to back of the TV, but you also seem to be saying BOTH of those cable feeds have both OTA and the satellite signals from the dish "on them"? How is that set up as far as diplexing the signals from the OTA antenna+satellite dish on the "dish/antenna" end onto the 2 seperate cable runs, and how exactly, is it set up to seperate(with the diplexer in the house) the OTA/Satellite signals to feed your tuners? I don't think You can use a standard "splitter"(even one that doesn't have a DC block on it that would allow power to pass) to seperate the Satellite signals and OTA signals that are diplexed onto a single coax run, you have to seperate OTA/satellite signals with appropriate diplexer ...

What I was really wondering about in my comments in last post is whether you have a dedicated cable run between the OTA antenna and inside your house instead of using diplexers to "combine" the signals from the OTA antenna and the dish onto either a single coax run until it enters your house, or if the dish clip on antenna/multiswitch is designed so OTA signals can be diplexed onto both coax runs you are using -- the two runs needed(along with a switch/mulitiswitch that is either "inside" your Dish LNB if it has 2 "coax connectors" on it, or is seperate multiswitch) to feed the signals coming from multiple satellites to multiple satellite receivers. Again, I'm not very familiar with D*'s equipment or what you need multiswitch/LNB wise/etc wise for all the different sats you may be using ...

Persoanlly, I would definitely recommend a seperate dedicated cable run to the antenna if at all possible -- In which case it sounds like you'll need to make another cable run, for Three in total. If, however I am misunderstanding your comments(and I don't think I am where this is concerned since you say both cable runs are going into one satellite receiver or the other), and it is the case that you are currently using a dedicated coax run(that ONLY has the OTA signals from the antenna on it, not the signals from the sat dish diplexed with the OTA signals from the OTA antenna) just make sure you are still feeding power along the coax if there is a amplfier on the antenna end .... again though, I wouldn't recommend using a amplfier there .... (I think the dish clip on antenna you are using has one however) .... Also See my comments in #1), and 1a farther above ...

A). I think you are talking more about diplexing, and seperating the OTA signals from the Sat signals and sending the appropriate signals to the appropriate receiver(sat or OTA) than you are talking about "splitting" the signals at this point .... Speaking solely of splitting the OTA signals -- Given that you are in a strong signal area, you should be able to "split" the signals coming from the OTA antenna a number of times and still have enough signal going to each device to achieve good reception - That should be the case with the Cincinnati stations -- However, for Dayton reception, I don't think that one 2 way splitter is going to hurt to enough to be an issue, but you might not want to split the signal too many more times than that if you want to receive them -- It's hard to say, you'll have to just point a 1/2 way decent antenna towards Dayton and see ... If you weren't in such a strong signal area for the Cincinnati stations, For the somewhat weaker signals you are probably getting from Dayton(once you get an antenna up and aimed that way anyway), For Dayton reception I might recommend a good, low noise mast mount preamp to compensate for the signal loss occuring from coax run(about 5db loss for every 100ft on UHF) from the antenna and to compensate for signal loss from splitting the signal(about 3.5db loss for each 2 way split), or, a good distribution amp to compensate for splitting the signal ... HOWEVER, you are so close to the Cincinnati towers, and the signals from the Cincinnati stations should be extremely strong at your location -- strong enough to easily overload a preamp/amp and cause more problems than it would help .... I would note that the diplexers are also going to cause some amount of increased signal loss (Insertion loss).

B). Oh .. On PQ --- With digital, as long as you consistantly have enough signal(about 16d/b of signal over noise, and remember uncorrectable multipath is just seen as "noise" by the reciever as well) from all the stations you want to recieve -- The PQ isn't going to get any better with more signal. With analog, a weak signal=snow, and a "weaker" signal just means more snow ... From my experience, the analog station broadcasting off the same tower as the digital staiton can be quite snowy, or ghostly, and you can still receive excellent reception of the digital station in many circumstances .... The less snow and ghosts on the analog stations however, the more reliable, 24/7, 365 days per year, your DTV reception is likely to be ...

Originally posted by In the Nati
Is there a fixed antenna set up that can get both the Cincinnati and Dayton stations? Best advice is to try the CM-4221 and see what we get?

I doubt you'll be able to get both the Dayton+Cincinnati stations on one heading with any antenna from your location, but the CM4221 would probably be your best bet if you get lucky, and also a good choice for a chance to get even all the Cincinnati stations on one heading ... Again, for cincinnati, everything Except WCVN(KET/PBS HD) in N KY, and WB HD(WSTR-DT) should be easy to get on one heading, but there is over a 100 degree difference in bearing from your location between WCVN and WSTR .... The rest in the middle(roughly to your west) are all "close toghether", but still about 90~110 degree difference in bearing from the Dayton stations ... The CM4221 should work quite well for stations that are at, or around 60 degrees apart, more than that and it starts getting really "iffy", but CM4221 is about the best you're going to be able to do while still getting good results "combatting multipath" how "on target" towards the stations you will have to aim the antenna and still expect good results is difficult to say, and probably mostly depends upon how "severe" the multipath situation is from the nearby Cincinnati stations, and how "weak" the signals from Dayton actually are ...

In order to use a "fixed" antenna setup and get both Cincinnati and Dayton stations, you would likely have to run seperate cable runs from 2 seperate antennas(one aimed at Cincinnati stations, one aimed at Dayton stations), with the seperate cable runs for each antenna hooked up to a A/B switch before the receiver(s) to switch between the Dayton/Cincinnati antennas ...

I hope I didn't just end up confusing you with all of the above(I know I'M confused, LOL), but I hope some of it helps ... Good luck+let us know how it goes ... Welcome to AVSforum, BTW ...

jim tressler

02-24-05, 02:44 PM

now thats an explanation :)

I am assuming he only has 2 rg-6 runs.. 3 would be best.. but I did diplex my ota in with the dss signal through the 5*8 multiswitch - and it worked fine.. now its a straight run.. no problems.. of course i did run 4 rg6 lines :)

Nitewatchman

02-24-05, 03:00 PM

Jim -- Yes, it can work just fine given "proper installation" --- I think you just have to be careful depending upon how the install is set up, and what equipment you are using given various "factors" such as amplified, dish clip on antennas/etc/etc ... Diplexing the OTA and running it through the multiswitch/diplexor also add additonal insertion loss that you don't get with a seperate line, and most mast mount preamps require different voltage to power them(the preamps and amplfied version of sensar come with the necessary power supply to insert the power along the coax from power supply hooked to A/C inside the house) than the dish clip on antennas amps+Sat equipment which at least with E* the Sat receiver sends along the coax ....

DrDon

02-24-05, 04:09 PM

FWIW, WXIX-DT does not have the ability to timeshift HD. I know we were all wondering about that. Answer's currently no. Any network programming that gets the Bearcat Bounce will not be in HD. You already know the next Bearcat HD game is 3/2.

cokebear

02-24-05, 04:56 PM

Jeff, as far as I know ALL of the clip on type antennas (I did look at several different mfgs.) require it to be powered by the STB weather E* or D*. None of them that I saw have their own amps(preamps). By the way I hooked the other side up today (I was only using 2 of the 4 inputs on the clip-on's diplexer wondering if it was only "half-powered" up didn't know if it might need a certain amount of power) just to see if there was any difference, there wasn't.

Now back to what I was asking about.
ummm ... "wing boom elements?" -- Oh, ok I loaded in the owners manual ... those are usually referred to as the UHF corner reflector, unless you want to use it for VHF only antenna I probably wouldn't get rid of those if I didn't have to, they are an important part of the antenna for UHF reception ...but, You would just have to try it and see ...
The reason I was wondering about the corner reflectors was in the hopes of getting an antenna to mount FLUSH to the joists on the balcony over us. I may still give it a try. One of the drawbacks to this position would be length, I would have to keep it at or under 50" width ins't as important, and the wife really dosen't want anything hanging down (thats where the corner reflectors come in to play). The yagi would be almost perfect but I would like to have only one antenna out there. The painting question was just if I need to sell my wife on the idea. I saw another apartment where they have a smallish antenna put up like this but they are on the north side and on the third floor so asking them about it won't be much help to me.

Sometimes I think "if I just got rid of the wife it would all be good.":eek:
Then I think "naw, who would I watch TV with.";)
Just kidding guys.

goheelz

02-24-05, 06:12 PM

I've seen lots of good info here lately for antennas. Thought I would pass something on that may be of use.

My wife had no problem with putting an antenna on the roof, she just did not want me doing it. With two small kids she has a fear of gravity. :)
Today I had TNT pictures do the install (I saw someone mention them on another forum). The installer was up on the roof today in the snow hooking me up. Everything thing went well. He had wanted to pop the cable through the wall, but I got him to try hooking it to my pre-existing diplexer first so I would have a chance for using it on multiple tvs. all the cincinnati local in digital popped in after a scan. previously I could only get 5-1, 9-1 and one of pbs (i think 54-1). the price was $215 which included the antenna, a winegard prostar 1000 p7015. Its large but not too bad. Its mounted on my chimmney (I think that's their default install). Over the phone they told me I could have go a rotator. I passed on that since I would not watch the dayton station too much. I will update later if things don't work out
so there is an option if you don't want to be on the rooftop yourself

Jeff

Nitewatchman

02-24-05, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by DrDon
FWIW, WXIX-DT does not have the ability to timeshift HD. I know we were all wondering about that. Answer's currently no. Any network programming that gets the Bearcat Bounce will not be in HD. You already know the next Bearcat HD game is 3/2.

Thanks for the info Doc.

Speaking of Fox -- I've only had time to get through the first 5 minutes of my recording of AI last night -- and don't even remember if I recorded WXIX or WRGT However -- I did notice(in first 5 minutes of AI last night anyway) -- The "standard" White Fox bug was present on the HD/16x9 Fox feed - about in the same place it is on 4x3 bug -- and there was no splicer inserted bug ...

-------------------------------------------------

Cokebear,

That's what I thought I saw in the specs on all the dish clip on's I looked at as well. I think you meant none of them you saw had their own power supplies, the amps/preamps are inside the casing of the antenna itself(that's what needs powered by the same power STB sends to LNB). yeah, it should send all the power over 1 line just fine ...

Given that your dish clip on is working fine on UHF, perhaps even without the corner reflector the VU75 might do as good or hopefully better on UHF but who knows ... I wouldn't think it would do any better on UHF than CM3014 in that "configuration", maybe worse since the CM3014 is "designed" without corner reflectors, but again who knows. VU75/CM3014 might be pretty much the same antenna, and same performance without corner reflector attached on VU75 though, again who knows without comparing them directly ....

I'd run a seperate coax to whatever you use though if at all possible, any little thing "extra" that can help you with your WCPO reception problem should be of use ... And, I don't know how the diplexors you got with the clip on antenna would work with it, if at all --- especially the one I think that is included in the clip on antenna ....

On the winegard Yagi, of course you wouldn't necessarily have to put both your VHF and UHF antennas outdoors --- Just so VHF/UHF is properly "combined" before the receiver .... I just mentioned it, knowing the efforts you've already went through because I'd think it should give you the best chance "available" given your "possible options" for getting WCPO through your interference problems/etc, but if it were me I'd probably try the VHF/UHF combo first as well ... It should be better on both VHF/UHF than anything you've tried so far ....

--------------------------------------

Originally posted by goheelz

Today I had TNT pictures do the install (I saw someone mention them on another forum).......

the price was $215 which included the antenna, a winegard prostar 1000 p7015......

I will update later if things don't work out
so there is an option if you don't want to be on the rooftop yourself ....

Thanks for posting that, I know a number of folks were looking for a good installer a while back.

That's a excellent antenna choice(small~medium vhf/UHF combo) and a really good deal IMO -- IF they do a good job of course. I think About $400~600 is probably a more common price for an install such as you're getting -- especially as most winegard antennas(including pr7015 I believe) have better build quality(which I think is one reason why many pro installers like them) and are more "sturdy" than similiar antennas from other antennas, and are therefore usually more expensive. $400~600 might sound like a lot, but it takes more to cover an installer's costs to the extent they can make $ than one might think.

Here's the basics on the prostar 1000 line of VHF/UHF combos from winegard site :

http://www.winegard.com/offair/prostar1000uhfvhffm.htm#all

and here's the detailed spec sheet on the PR7015 from Winegard site with gain figures per channel and polar plots per channel and F/B ratio info/etc in pdf format :

http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/pr-7015.pdf

DrDon

02-25-05, 11:33 PM

More minor observations:

Tonight (2/25), I caught WKRC-DT attempting to super a ID bug on (on the DT only) during "JAG." The picture went to an upconvert of 12, then the WKRC-DT 31 super appeared in the upper left. As soon as it faded away, the picture went back to HD. Looks like somone's testing out a new switcher and it's not quite right. Although I've seen the super before (during fireworks and HD-1 movies), but not during network.

The giant 5 translucent bug is gone (presently) from WLWT-DT, but I also noticed "WLWT-TV/DT" below the 5 logo slate during a local break in "Medical Investigators." To my knowledge, that's the first time the "DT" suffix has appeared in a slate on ANY Cincinnati commercial analog station. Other markets routinely put the "DT" identifier in their slates (which, IIRC, is legally required as part of the station ID, though not enforced).

Ok, they're tiny observations. But coupled with the WXIX-DT HD local hoops games, I think local stations are beginning to have the HD epiphany.

I'm optimistic.

microbob

02-25-05, 11:45 PM

Now if WXIX-DT could lose that ugly multicolored Fox 19 bug on its analog channel, and insert a small translucent Fox 19 logo on its Fox splicer system I'd be happy.

JunkyardDogg

02-26-05, 04:03 PM

WB64 has put "DT" after WSTR-TV/DT on its analog logo for a while, not the one that is on the screen during programming, but when showing the programs that will be shown in the future. I still don't have PSIP from WXIX-DT, I wish they would change the color logo, but I have heard they are going to change the graphics of the station. Anyone heard anything about WBQC/WOTH-DT? I would guess both channels would be on the same channel(sub-channel). Also, no program info from WKRC-DT and I hope the local stations don't put anymore logos on the screen, WKRC's is way too big!!

DrDon

02-26-05, 05:52 PM

Dogg..

Forgot about WSTR-DT. Shows how much I watch them. Jeff doublechecked, and it is required by law that the digital station be identified with the DT suffix. So, we have some local stations that could be ticketed. More likely, a warning.

BTW, currently getting PSIP + guide from WXIX-DT and PSIP + guide from WKRC-DT. And that's on the Samsung, which is p-i-c-k-y about the stream. In fact, only Think 14 & 16 don't have guides for me.

Doc

WebHopperWeasel

02-26-05, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by DrDon
More minor observations:

Tonight (2/25), I caught WKRC-DT attempting to super a ID bug on (on the DT only) during "JAG." The picture went to an upconvert of 12, then the WKRC-DT 31 super appeared in the upper left. As soon as it faded away, the picture went back to HD. Looks like somone's testing out a new switcher and it's not quite right. Although I've seen the super before (during fireworks and HD-1 movies), but not during network.

Geesh.... ya don't miss much. That was just a quick test I needed to do to check the HD Logo Inserter.... Glad to know you pay such close attention to us. lol

Weasel

jim tressler

02-26-05, 08:42 PM

weasel.. when you guys get the bugs working right.. please please please dont run the damn weather alerts and all that other crap on the digital station :) please..

jim

microbob

02-26-05, 10:23 PM

Last night and tonight, I've been getting nothing but a black screen on 54-4 PBS-HD. All other SD channels are working fine. I'm only getting the PSIP info.

Nitewatchman

02-26-05, 10:39 PM

microbob --

When is the last time you checked KET4? It was fixed here by about 9:35pm ... Really nice HD scenery from Idaho presently, I don't think I've caught this one before ...

------------------------

Thanks William :)

microbob

02-26-05, 10:50 PM

That's good news, I last checked it around 9pm so that is explains why I didn't notice it being back up.

Kudos to William.

Robert

Kathy

02-27-05, 12:01 PM

Anyone else unable to get WLWT on 5.1 in HD? I have not been able to receive it for as long as I can remember. Last October I couldn't receive 19.1 any longer and someone recommended 29.2 which was the trick at that time. Wondered if maybe there was another channel for WLWT HD?

Have DirecTV, Sony SAT HD-200 for receiver, with antenna cable plugged into back of receiver. Channel Master hanging in the attic, but I vow this week to call TNT and work towards moving it to the roof.

When I scroll through what I call local channels (5,9,12, 19) I see three versions for each except for NBC. For all others I see:
9 - DirecTV
9 - ANT (fair antenna picture)
9.1 - ANT/Digital

For NBC, I see the first two only.

According to antennaweb.org CBS, NBC, PBS should all be at 303 degrees for compass orientation.

dusterscott

02-27-05, 12:37 PM

Kathy,

Are you able to do a rescan with your receiver? Try that and see if it helps.

mchuckp

02-27-05, 04:03 PM

For anyone interested, I read in the Cincy Enquirer this morning that WXIX is looking to carry a lot more Bearcats games in HD next season. It has been a big hit. Didn't say much else. Just a quick blurb.

zekyl

02-27-05, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by jim tressler
weasel.. when you guys get the bugs working right.. please please please dont run the damn weather alerts and all that other crap on the digital station :) please..

jim

I second Jim's motion. I hate when a porgam is in HD and they drop it to SD to run the stupid weather alerts and school closings. I don't care about those, I want my HDTV!

Nitewatchman

02-27-05, 08:51 PM

Warning: Ranting and venting ahead:

Rant on:

Well, I'm not usually one to complain too much -- It's probably a fine line a times but I think reporting issues and complaining about them are two different things and, If I thought complaining to WCPO-DT about the issue, rather than reporting it(which I've done several times) would do any good .....

Here it is, HD oscars time, and WCPO-DT still hasn't figured out to fix their 1280x360 "effective resolution"(i.e. "jaggies" issue - all the unique pixel data from ABC HD feed is not there in their bitstream issue) problem after what, 6 months now -- An entire NFL season has passed, including a home MNF HD Bengals game chock' full o' jaggies ...1280x360 effective resolution of course --- in addition to not being True HD -- s less actual vertical resolution than NTSC SD(such as for instance 720x480 Widescreen "anamorphic" DVD) ... and I STILL think most folks who still aren't "noticing" their problem during ABC HD would likely notice it if they did careful comparisons to another source of ABC HD ---

Also : The "jaggies" looked particularly bad along the sides/tops of buildings in the background during the red carpet coverage ...

And, it seems one can't count on ABC HD Dayton, either. For example, they had a audio/video sync issue for almost 2 weeks(which was fixed last wed), they've had "video freezes"(where the audio continues normally, video freezes for a second or two)during HD on average of a couple times per hour for over 2 years now(when they were NBC affiliate, and during ABC HD now since 9/2004 as well) ... They've been much better at it lately, but also in the past they've also been very good about missing HD feed .... The current, more relevant issue at this time with them being, WKEF-DT is currently having problems and is non-decodable by most receivers(including both of mine) and via TW Dayton's STB's.

Since I don't have a nice way of saying this ... The situation with ABC HD in Southwest Ohio currently just plain sucks .... arrrgh ...

Rant off:

Oh well, I guess I'll aim antenna towards Columbus and do some reading until WSYX-DT locks (if it does) ....

Back to your regularly scheduled programming ....

jim tressler

02-27-05, 09:38 PM

i feel your pain jeff..

William Smith

02-27-05, 10:03 PM

In spite of what you think, stations who alert their viewers to emergency conditions are doing their job...they are notifying the public as a public service. Its part of their commitment to the FCC.

Recently the FCC issued fines for stations presenting emergency information in audio form but not visual thus not making the information available to the deaf community.

JunkyardDogg

02-27-05, 10:18 PM

Jeff:

Lets form a group of ABC HD viewers and purchase a dish and receiver and do a 'rent to own' option to WCPO. We could make money on the rent and charge some interest. Then, I would help buy new PSIP generators for the stations that can't get it right. I would also help out the local stations by buying them something called a "COMPUTER" so they can check something called "ELECTRONIC MAIL." I heard this is supposed to be the future and with 1995 getting closer, the local stations should get some "HIGH-TECH" gear.

SO, No PSIP or EPG from WXIX, no EPG WKRC, Jaggies on WCPO, no signal from WKEF, No EPG from WPTO or WPTD, No UPN HD. Wow, I am getting really pissed with the lack of response from WCPO!

DrDon

02-27-05, 10:24 PM

William..

I don't think anyone is objection to the alerts half as much as they're objecting to the HD being shut off to present them. In a perfect world, tomorrow's DTV will be able to alert main channel viewers with a simple asterisk in a corner that they need to tune to a subchannel or enable a text message to provide the details of the alert without disrupting main channel viewing. With the capabilities of DTV, it's no longer necessary to eat up a third of the screen with a map showing which counties are under a weather alert or scroll, ad nauseum a list of snow cancellations, each of which applies to only a tiny fraction of the viewing audience. Here's hoping tomorrow's broadcaster uses the tools available to him/her to actually do a better job of informing the public without disrupting delivery of the main product for those for whom alerts do not apply. There's a way to do it.

Nitewatchman

02-27-05, 11:08 PM

Originally posted by William Smith
In spite of what you think, stations who alert their viewers to emergency conditions are doing their job...they are notifying the public as a public service. Its part of their commitment to the FCC.

Exactly .. I like to think it's part of their commitment to the local community as well ..... I have some direct experience with this .... I was stuck in a cabin in a hard hit area of Adams County during the weekend of Flood of 97, and relied on WLWT 5(Besides WSAZ 3 Huntington, WV, was the only OTA TV station that is receivable from that location due to terrain issues) and a battery powered TV for info .... As the neighbors A/C and phone lines were out, I was also relaying reports to neighbors from reports from WLWT that were specific to that community, areas of which were actually unaccessable from our location ....

I think folks who remember going through such events may not so easily dismiss the fine service some local broadcasters provide in this area, nor might they complain so much about the weather bugs/etc. If such service were gone or regulated to a "minor" role, I'm sure it would be missed by many. The most recent event I can think of where a broadcaster deserves a lot of credit would be the feb 2003 Ice storm coverage in your area(effected portions of SE Ohio and WV as well) from WLAP AM, which I listened to a bit up here ...

In other words --- IF some people get what they are asking for, I think they may end up regreting it in the future ... Or, if they get what they REALLY want(such as HD feeds from the broadcast nets straight from Cable/sat for a fee without the local broadcasters getting "in the way"), then I'LL regret it as well ....

Now, all that being said, on the other hand I can't say I've never been annoyed by weather bugs/school closings or breaking into programming to seemingly provide coverage of a front that ends up containing nothing more than "garden variety" thunderstorms --- This sort of thing seems to happen more often when severe weather has not been a recent common occurance in the area ...

.02 cents ....

jim tressler

02-28-05, 07:42 AM

my .02 cents - I agree with doc, the age of digital can allow for unobtrusive announcements - and 9/10 times I get my "emergency" info from the web or radio -not tv, but thats just me and as allways, everyones mileage will vary. I understand and think they (TV folks) need to provide a public service - which tey do, but how far they take it certainly can be improved and made better for all parties!

jyd.. I agree with you - its amazing how the tv stations seem to think it is forced on them rather than embracing the technology.. Heres food for thought.. what if the NAB (national association of bullsh*tters) would have gotten off their a$$ 15 years ago when hdtv was created - where would we be now.. probably a lot better off.. as always, its the consumer that gets screwed!! Just like electric deregulation - it was supposed to get us lower electric bills.. instead, we are getting a 20% or so increase.. nice..

jim

William Smith

02-28-05, 10:37 AM

Yes but for subchannels to work everyone has to be able to see them...

This brings up must carry ( or lack thereof) for the subchannels if that information is going to get to their viewers who are served by satellite or cable... Stations are obligated to make emergency information available to all viewers..

Several stations have proposed a plan using datacasting to relay the emergency information to viewers complete with location targeting (using Zip Codes) but CEA threw a fit at having to be responsible for the decoding end of the deal..( the one I proposed would have used the existing closed caption decoder hardware in the sets to display the messages)..

Remember the broadcaster has control of only one end of the product..

ktarkington

02-28-05, 11:05 AM

Nitewatchman,

I'm right there with you!!!! It has been a solid 8-9 months that WCPO has been aware of the issues, yet they refuse to do anything about it. Their solution is to wait for the new delivery solution to be installed. They insist that it is the harware, but it is the same hardware that they had before they moved and it worked fine.

I have sent around 10 e-mails to WCPO with all of my contact info and every possible way to get in touch with me, and nothing!!! I think their e-mail address is just a big bit bucket!!

A stealth mission may be in order. We can sneak in at night and reconfigure the equipment on our own!!

jim tressler

02-28-05, 11:23 AM

remember - smail mail must be kept on file.. it wasnt until I sent a snail mail that they responded

mchuckp

02-28-05, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by ktarkington
Nitewatchman,

I'm right there with you!!!! It has been a solid 8-9 months that WCPO has been aware of the issues, yet they refuse to do anything about it. Their solution is to wait for the new delivery solution to be installed. They insist that it is the harware, but it is the same hardware that they had before they moved and it worked fine.

I have sent around 10 e-mails to WCPO with all of my contact info and every possible way to get in touch with me, and nothing!!! I think their e-mail address is just a big bit bucket!!

A stealth mission may be in order. We can sneak in at night and reconfigure the equipment on our own!!

Can someone repost some contact info for WCPO so maybe some of us who have never harassed them can join the fight. Are you sending comments to certain people or WCPO's general line?

jim tressler

02-28-05, 01:15 PM

here is the link to the letter with snail mail addresses I posted and send via snail mail - tom talley wcpo's engineer responed to me via email:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4703038#post4703038

tbenson81

02-28-05, 01:15 PM

I cant believe that someone is actually defending this practice and labeling it as "public service"

Unless my life is in danger and there is something newsworthy that has national and worldly ramifications then leave it off the digital channels.

If someone wants this information, they can check the internet and if they dont have that, they can pick up the damn phone, be proactive and find out themselves.

School closings - what a joke, and whats even worse is the supposed severe and inclement weather that supposedly is going to hit Cincinnati every other night. Instead of just a little blurb, we have HD cut out completely and usually Pete Delkus from ABC shows up with his little wand and "high tech" weather tracking. Meanwhile, I am missing a great show only so I can prepare for the 1/4 inch snowfall that we will be receiving that night.

jim tressler

02-28-05, 01:17 PM

lol.. and 99% of the time they get the amount of snow wrong!

HDTVChallenged

02-28-05, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by William Smith
Remember the broadcaster has control of only one end of the product..

Yet, one of the problems discovered in the aftermath of 04/03/1974 (particularly Brandenburg,KY ) was that few people actually had their TV's and radios turned on ... many folks were "outside" and oblivious until it was too late to seek shelter. (Even though WX service went to the "Today Show" and started warning folks many hours ahead of the outbreak.) Hence, the re-purposing of civil defense sirens.

That having been said, I generally applaud local broadcasters efforts to warn the public ... it just annoying when the "overlay" graphics obliterate the underlying program. (hint WLEX ;) )

William Smith

02-28-05, 02:14 PM

I was ten years old and at home in 04/03/1974 and woke up to the lack of a barn behind my house and another two buildings gone on our property near Madison County..
Its the one seen in the Richmond Photo on WLEX's web site.

.

I was in high school in the winter of 1977, ( read lots of snow and -30 degree temperatures), we had two school buses slide off bridges into creeks while trying to get the kids home parents were notified over the radio where they could get their kids... school closings matter when you have to ride the bus over an hour each way...Not everyone has the Internet but almost everyone has at least one TV. Mom or Dad can't surf the web and cook breakfast at the same time but they can glance at the TV...

tbenson81

02-28-05, 02:47 PM

Can someone inform me as to what occured on this ill-fated day in 1974?

Paul210

02-28-05, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by tbenson81
Can someone inform me as to what occured on this ill-fated day in 1974?

http://www.xeniatornado.com/superoutbreak.htm

http://www.lex18.com/Global/link.asp?L=82793

jim tressler

02-28-05, 03:41 PM

I was still under 1 - but I think that was the super storm of tornados that wiped out much of xenia - or was that 1979??

William Smith

02-28-05, 03:44 PM

Several things came out of that outbreak..

NWS radio
KEWS (Kentucky Emergency Warning System) ( Now part of COT)
(State owned Microwave Communication System )
Emergency Management

NWS regional offices with radar... Lexington has since been shutdown..

Establishment of EBS to replace the Cold War Conelrad System..

Sea Ray

02-28-05, 04:01 PM

The Xenia tornados were in 1974 but they were in April

William Smith

02-28-05, 04:09 PM

04 is April..

tbenson81

02-28-05, 06:02 PM

Besides NiteWatchman's unfortunate Cabin Saga, we had to revert all the way back to 1974 to find an instance where these news updates may have been useful. However, considering that tornadoes are spontaneous to begin with, I am skeptical to believe that people were given much foresight even back then.

Nevertheless - if a tornado or some unforeseen natural disaster does make its way to the Tri-State, I would rather go out watching full blown HD glory rather than suffering through another night of ill-advised weather predictions.

William Smith

02-28-05, 06:10 PM

Besides public service its a question of liability... A station can ( and would ) be sued if it had knowledge of threatening weather and did not make an effort to notify the public..

I'll bet you would be the first in line to sue a station to get a new HDTV to replace the one you were watching when your house went to Oz.. ( It quit when you hit the (s)witch...)

Nitewatchman

02-28-05, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by tbenson81
Besides NiteWatchman's unfortunate Cabin Saga, we had to revert all the way back to 1974 to find an instance where these news updates may have been useful.

Do you realize at all just how dumb and ignorant this statement(among other comments in your recent posts) is? Your comments don't even deserve a response, they mostly deserve a spot in my ignore list ....

Just a couple more examples ... Parts of Xenia got hit hard again several years ago ... Pete Delkus also did a fine job with his "wand" as you put it, in 1999 when some of the Northern Cincinnati suburbs were hit ....

While YOU might not think local news and info is useful to you, it is useful to others. If you don't like it, change the channel. You can even put up an antenna(or convince your landlord to put one up) and watch the Dayton stations, which instead of dropping from HD to insert SD graphics, multicast a SD subchannel with simulcast of analog station, including the EAS warnings/school closings/etc ....

tbenson81

02-28-05, 06:55 PM

Jeff,

I do not wish to get into a verbal feud with you over this but the fact of the matter is, the majority of people do NOT want to see this type of information.

1. If you want to watch the school closings - watch the damn news

2. If there is severe weather on the way to Cincinnati, then tell us briefly, inform us to tune to another station for more information or once again watch the news. CBS HD never puts this crap on the HD feed. They only put it on the standard feed. Better yet, as I mentioned earlier - check the internet or pick up the phone. You seem to be forgetting the type of people who are in the market for digital broadcasts. I dont want to bust out demographics for you but I am sure that people in that market could find other means to seek out this information.

3. Sounds like you among others need to be a little more resourceful. If you want to talk about ignorance - maybe next time you shouldnt go trap yourself in the middle of the woods without some contignecy plans.

4. I am sorry Nitewatchman - you have been extremely helpful to me on this forum and you are wise beyond your years when it comes to OTA techincal info. However, you are definitely in the minoroty on this one.

HDTVChallenged

02-28-05, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by tbenson81
Besides NiteWatchman's unfortunate Cabin Saga, we had to revert all the way back to 1974 to find an instance where these news updates may have been useful.

Actually, I'm sure there's been something "useful" broadcasted within the last couple of weeks ... it's just that 04/03/1974 stands out vividly in my memory.

It's a one-to-many vs. many-to-one thing. One-to-many (TV->viewers) is far more efficient and timely than many-to-one (50,000+ people all trying to call the local weather service office at the same time - assuming they'd have the common sense to call in the first place ;) )

tbenson81

02-28-05, 07:24 PM

If people are this concerned then buy a radio!!!!!!!

Let me know if you want a link. Walmart has one for $3.99

William Smith

02-28-05, 07:45 PM

Hate to break it to you but soon all the television broadcasts will be digital and all television consumers will be as well (via cable, OTA or satellite)..

Again, station have a responsibility to alert the public in the event of danger or dangerous conditions... we are NOT obligated to provide entertainment for your viewing pleasure... That's the law...

CBS would not provide that type of information on the network feed as its not feasible to do it for the entire country..but it is feasible for your local stations and is the heart of local programming.

Commercial broadcasters provide entertainment programming in hopes you will set through the commercials and go buy something from the people who bought the commercials..

Some people (the deaf community) have no use for radio and would not get the emergency information..

Visually impaired consumers can at least listen to the broadcasts for details.

Some people on here just can see the BIG picture (even if its right in front of their nose and 60+ inches)

tbenson81

02-28-05, 07:52 PM

Bill,

You are obviously affiliated with one of the local broadcasters as you referred to them as "we". I will tell you this much:

1. You are not going to be staying in business for very long if you are now concerned with the deaf community. As harsh as that sounds - you need to find the balance between keeping people informed and presenting them with the entertainment they seek. You do not want to piss of your target audience as several have done in Cincinnati. I as well as many others have even turned to sattelite and now receive their CBS feed from NY.

Nitewatchman

02-28-05, 08:01 PM

Originally posted by tbenson81
I do not wish to get into a verbal feud with you over this

Nor do I because #1). for the most part you have no idea what you are talking about and #2), you are wasting my time.

Originally posted by tbenson81
but the fact of the matter is, the majority of people do NOT want to see this type of information.

And you base your in-depth analysis on which facts, exactly? I have no doubt that many folks often complain about the school closing info and weather bugs/etc ... I think you'll find they complain a lot less however at such times when folks find the information useful ...

Also, the majority of people probably don't like to go to the dentist, either, but ....

Originally posted by tbenson81

1. If you want to watch the school closings - watch the damn news

It is the news. Schools often don't know during evening newscasts what their plans are for the next day.

BTW, unless something has changed recently which I am not aware of, expletives are not allowed on this forum, using them is a sure fire way to lose your posting privlages. I don't particurarly mind myself, but others may feel differently. Please read the forum rules and FAQ before posting ....

Originally posted by tbenson81

You seem to be forgetting the type of people who are in the market for digital broadcasts. I dont want to bust out demographics for you but I am sure that people in that market could find other means to seek out this information.

#1). I don't know of any particular "types of people" ... What different "types of people" are there which fit into your "demographics" info and "catagories"/etc?

#2). irregardless, No matter what "type of people"(whatever that means), are involved they ALL still can(and do at times) lose their electrical power(do you have emergency generators set up for your "contigency plans for your house?), phone and cable services ....

#2). You obviously haven't done your homework on the DTV transistion. Digital TV broadcasts ARE meant for everyone. Analog TV broadcasts are to be shut down.

Originally posted by tbenson81
Better yet, as I mentioned earlier - check the internet or pick up the phone. I dont want to bust out demographics for you but I am sure that people in that market could find other means to seek out this information.

Bust them out. Lets see your evidence. One place you can look for evidence concerning Broadcasters public service obligations is on FCC website.

Why do you think Schools send their closing/delay info IN to the broadcast stations? Do you think they are doing it just so every parent in the district can call them, and ask what their plans are?

Originally posted by tbenson81

3. Sounds like you among others need to be a little more resourceful. If you want to talk about ignorance - maybe next time you shouldnt go trap yourself in the middle of the woods without some contignecy plans.

Again, you have no idea what you are talking about.

#1). Emergencies occur for which no "contingency plan" can prepare you for. I hope you don't find out this the hard way sometime, but obviously, it seems that is the only way you are going to find out .....

#2). I said I was "stuck" I didn't say I was "trapped". I allways prepare for emergencies when headed "into the woods" as much as is reasonable.

#3). In that particular circumstance, If I hadn't been able to "plot" my way home(from information on bridge/road closings given on WLWT-TV and also a local FM station I was listening to), and I hadn't had a chain saw to clear my way through the first part of the journey, It just would have meant I would not have been able to make it to work on Monday, and would have had a bit of a extended weekend "vacation" instead ...

Originally posted by tbenson81
However, you are definitely in the minoroty on this one.

I doubt it. I enjoy "bug free", uninterrupted HD as much as anyone else here does, however, I realize that "priorities" are priorities, and I don't consider HD a priority over getting out local emergency info to the public ....

I would like to see stations not have to drop from HD in order to insert local graphics, and I would even like to someday soon HD local news ....

Originally posted by tbenson81

If people are this concerned then buy a radio!!!!!!!

Let me know if you want a link. Walmart has one for $3.99

TV stations are broadcasters which have local, public service obligations just like radio broadcasters. You can't see Radar, or the bridge 3 miles up the road from you that is washed out during a storm on a radio ...

Personally, generally I usually use WCPO-DT's weather subchannel(cable carries it as well I believe) for most weather info as it is convienient(much more so than messing around with trying to find info on the radio or internet), and it usually tells me everything I need to know with a few second glance. I can even listen to NWS audio from it if I want ... That doesn't mean I don't appreciate broadcasters efforts in alerting and warning those portions of the public which are watching(or listening) to THEIR stations at any given time ...

William Smith

02-28-05, 08:05 PM

Ever heard of closed captioning?...

You bet your tail we are concerned over the Deaf community... The FCC has rules about closed captioning and has recently ruled against stations who broadcast emergency information aurally but not visually or captioned..

I'm sorry that you feel that way about the local stations... ( I gave up my Saturday night when I learned of the problems with the KET4 feed)
Oh wait that's for something you want to watch so that's OK..its just a problem when I do it for someone else..

In my case Sir, its about public service... not money...

I wish you could talk to one of our control point engineers who was trapped at our Morehead transmitter for 3 days during the ice storm.. He had no power (just a couple of small generators) and our transmitters were off but he stayed there (its a 3+mile walk out) fueling those generators to keep E911, the NWS, and statewide microwave system that feeds the rest of eastern Kentucky alive.. tell him how ungrateful you are about emergency information and you will get more than you bargained for.. People stayed with that site when 600 lbs blocks of ice were pealing off the tower ( They were in a metal storage container watching it fall) to keep it running until power was restored.. We are installing emergency power to all the digital plants now...

dusterscott

02-28-05, 08:06 PM

Back on pages 138 and 139 I was involved in a discussion with Nightwatchman and Smackman regarding a Winegard Sensar OTA. Smackman is having reception problems. I use a Sensar II amplified OTA to pull in Cincinnati stations and I had been using a Radio Shack amplifier to make it work. I was informed by Nightwatchman that I should be using a power supply to power this antenna so I ordered the correct Winegard PS-9370 power supply. I received this today and thought I'd pass on my results.

WLWT (5 Analog) Before: Snowy Picture Now: Snowy Picture (no change)
WLWT (5-1) Before: 69% signal Now: 45% signal
WCPO (9 Analog) Before: Snowy Picture Now: Some snow
WCPO (9-1) Before: 77% signal Now: 45% signal
WKRC (12 Analog) Before: Snowy Now: Snowy (no change)
WKRC (12-1) Before: 45% signal Now: 69% signal
WPTO (14 Analog) Before: no pic/snow Now: No pic/snow (no change)
WPTO (14-x) Before: 45% signal Now: 69% signal
WXIX (19 Analog) Before: some snow Now: some snow (no change)
WXIX (19-1) Before: 54% signal Now: 69% signal
WCET (48 Analog) Before: some snow Now: some snow (no change)
WCET (48-x) Before: 45% signal Now: 69 - 77%
WSTR (64 Analog) Before: snowy Now: some snow (better)
WSTR (64-1) Before: snowy Now: no signal

I don't have a signal meter on analog stations so I can only give a description. Analog stations aren't important to me especially since they are snowy so I've deleted them from my guide. I don't SEE a difference in the picture quality now that I'm using a power supply instead of an amplifier. I've always had a good picture on the digital OTA stations. I know my receiver's signal strength meter isn't a true measurement of signal strength but I believe it can be a relative number for comparison purposes such as I've done here. BTW all signal readings were the peak readings and they do jump around a bit for the most part. I was hoping to at least be able to get 64-1 (WSTR-DT) but I still can't for some reason is spite of a rescan.

Nitewatchman

02-28-05, 08:11 PM

Originally posted by tbenson81
1. You are not going to be staying in business for very long if you are now concerned with the deaf community.

I must admit, at least some of your comments are extremely humorous ...

For instance, here is some info for you from a recent FCC news release(from FCC commissioner Powell) concerning the fines 2 stations received for not providing closed captioning during that's stations coverage of a local emergency (Southern California Wildfires) :

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
February 23, 2005
STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN POWELL ON THREE PROPOSED FORFEITURES FOR
VIOLATION OF COMMISSION CLOSED CAPTIONING RULES
“Today’s Enforcement Bureau actions are the first in the Commission’s history regarding its emergency closed captioning rules. People with hearing disabilities have a right to the same timely emergency information as stations provide to their hearing audiences. The Commission
remains committed to strong enforcement in this critical area.”

The press release is here:

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-256935A1.pdf

More info in the files(including details on the specifics involved) which are currently available and downloadable from under the 2/23/05 date here:

http://www.fcc.gov/

cokebear

02-28-05, 08:21 PM

Like it or not I think the PSA is here to stay in one form or another. Perosnally I do not mind seeing them even though I can find that information any number of ways.

Now on to the reason this forum was started (I doubt it was to discuss the pros and cons of PSAs). I got the 50" Boom Length, 18 Element Antenna $39.99 Brand: RadioShack Catalog #: 15-2151 Model: VU-75 XR (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D2151) today and have placed it temporarily. It has made the difference, even without the UHF corner reflectors. I have to aim it a little more to the east than I thought I would have to. Now if only the wife will let me keep it. Some of the digital channels are coming in about the same or lower on my signal meter and some are much higher but it does get them all and they are steady. Some of the highest readings actually come in on the UHF channels. Now I can't wait for the next episode of Lost, have never seen any show on WCPO in HD and maybe I will be able to weigh in on the jaggie issue after a while.

dusterscott

02-28-05, 08:28 PM

I agree. Let's keep this related to HDTV Info and Reception issues.

tbenson81

02-28-05, 08:28 PM

You are misconstruing what I saying. Obviously you have to abide by what the legal system outlines. However, I was saying that they are not going to be investing a whole lot of time/money and energy to this small fraction of the population.

Bill- This is about SCHOOL CLOSINGS and RAINSTORMS. Hardly maintaining the emergency systems. This I think is where your biggest downfall is: You are splicing the 2 categories. SCHOOLS and RAIN are not emergenices and nobody cares!!!!!!

If we are going to be doomed by a 1974 type tornado fine, if there is a legit severe ice storm or blizzard on the way - then fine, interrupt my programming.

However, it seems like people in Cincinnati have a propensity to blow things out of proportion and freak out over nothing. On my way home from work today I saw that the parking lot at BIGGS was overflowing. I stoppped in for a couple snacks and bervergaes for the week and everyone I passed was stocking up on water and batteries.

What is wrong with these people. Do people think they are going to be snowed in for weeks at a time and there will be no open stores? Give me a break.

Anyways, while Im watching my interuppted HD showing of CSI tonight on the NY feed, you can see that your local school will be closed, not once but 30 times throughout the night with the perpetual scroll bar at the bottom of the screen. Also, good old Pete will have his wand handy and prepare you for the doomsday scenarios that await us this week.Good Luck with your emergecny supply shopping!

Nitewatchman

02-28-05, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by dusterscott
I was informed by Nightwatchman that I should be using a power supply to power this antenna so I ordered the correct Winegard PS-9370 power supply.

I know it must be confusing for some reason, but What I said was(about 10 times), IF you are using a Sensar II, GS2000 amplfied antenna(and the amplfier is actually included inside the antenna casing), you need to use the PS9370 power supply to power the amplfier, the radio shack ampflifer you have will not supply power to the amplfier in the GS2000. You don't have to rely on my comments on this, this info is available elsewhere, I had even sent you the info via PM from another source.

Again, you would have received the power supply with the antenna when you bought it if the antenna was the amplfied version, and, if DirecTV installed the amplfied version, they also should have installed the power supply for the amplfier unless their was a way they were able to set it up to power amplfier antenna from power that comes from the sat receiver(which also powers LNB on dish) ...

Also as I also said, IF you are using the unamplfied version of the Sensar II - The GS1000, OR if your antenna was installed by a professional installer(such as direcTV installer) with the amplifier removed from the antenna(it might still say (ampfied GS2000 on it), then the power supply is NOT going to help. I believe DirecTV installs the GS1000 as OTA antenna for their setups, not the GS2000(unless you paid extra for it or something).

IF you are actually using a GS2000 which actually has an amp inside the antenna, IF it isn't any better with the power supply as compared to without it, then something is wrong. You can test the power supply easily enough with a VOM -- PS9370 should output 15.3VAC along the coax (probably labeled "to preamp") to power the preamp. The RS distribution amp you have does not send any current along the coax, you can also check this with a VOM if you like. And, Remember, You can't have anything that will block the power coming from power supply and going to antenna -- no splitters/a/B switches/etc can be between the power supply+the antenna, otherwise the power won't reach the amplfier in the antenna. If none of these issues are your problem you either #1)do not have the amplified version of the sensar(which is what I expect is the case at this point), or #2). the amp in the antenna isn't working ...

Update: BTW, you would probably be better off with a bit better antenna, such as what you are using for Dayton ... If you are interested in only the Dayton digitals, they all broadcast on UHF, BTW ...

cokebear

02-28-05, 08:40 PM

Bill- This is about SCHOOL CLOSINGS and RAINSTORMS. Hardly maintaining the emergency systems. This I think is where your biggest downfall is: You are splicing the 2 categories. SCHOOLS and RAIN are not emergenices and nobody cares!!!!!!

Well at least we are clear on your position (if only you had been this clear to begin with). I agree with you in one way. I also think that school closings and small amounts of snow should not be considered emergencies, but there are many people in the tri-state who live in low lying areas that may need to be made aware of any heavy rain, thunderstorms tend to be severe in a relatively small area so I can't say that I agree with you on that. Other people in the area may or may not agree with you but this isn't the place for this discussion in any case.

tbenson81

02-28-05, 08:43 PM

1. Nitewatch - you claim I am wasting your time and then you go on to write a 6 page epic on the topic.

2. Again - I am not saying that the info isnt useful. However you do not have to interupt PRIME-TIME programming. Cut into Entertainment Tonight or Wheel of Fortune.

3. Interruption of primetime shows is not the NEWS. There is a separate show usually on at 10 or 11 entitled the NEWS.
Tv.yahoo.com to check your local listings

4. I apologize for my expletives - I am glad that the language patrol is here to watch over me and make sure I dont offend anyone

5. Demographics include those with plenty of discretionary income and education who can seek this information out. They dont need to be spoon fed it on a silver platter.

6. Again - you are stretching this topic as Billy is to comparing legit emergenices to rain and schools.

7. How do you say that you didnt have a contingency plan? I can think of many things you could have done and I am positive a radio would of been a lot more efficient and reliable than your tv.

8. This is again your biggest mistake and my FINAL POINT - THIS TYPE OF INFORMATION IS NOT EMERGENCY RELATED.

Again Nite- I respect your opinions and your knowledge but believe that the main purpose of television expecially today when there are so many means to receive information should be for entertainment purposes and to notify us of legit emergencies. However, I have yet to see one of these in the 10 years I have lived in Ohio.

cokebear

02-28-05, 08:46 PM

However, I have yet to see one of these in the 10 years I have lived in Ohio.

Sorry, but just where the heck were you right before Christmas?:confused:

microbob

02-28-05, 08:58 PM

I'm watching AI, and I notice that the Large blue Fox deault logo that was cut off has been replaced by the small transparent Fox logo. XIX must have inserted it locally into the splicer from Fox.

Its back to the default logo on 24. I noticed that the local station break was black. Testing perhaps?

Nitewatchman

02-28-05, 09:00 PM

Originally posted by dusterscott
I agree. Let's keep this related to HDTV Info and Reception issues.

The discussion we've been having about Weather Warnings/School closings, Emergency info/etc, Public service as provided by broadcasters IS relevant to our discussion here IMO. It's an issue for local HD, because many stations don't have the equipment necessary to insert local graphics without dropping to SD feed. And remember, stations are required to provide public services, and they are required to transistion to digital and provide a digital signal, But they are NOT required to provide HD. And, the case presently is that they are doing nothing except LOSING money on their digital stations, HD is only costing them money currently ...

Originally posted by tbenson81
This is about SCHOOL CLOSINGS and RAINSTORMS. Hardly maintaining the emergency systems. This I think is where your biggest downfall is: You are splicing the 2 categories. SCHOOLS and RAIN are not emergenices and nobody cares!!!!!!

The weather bugs(maps with warnings/etc) you see are activated on the stations as part of the EAS/EBS system, you'll hear those same warnings on NWS radio. IT IS the same thing, providing public service, Whether it be severe weather information, weather reports, Weather warnings, school closings, Closed captioning, and FCC, SOME portions of the public, as well as broadcasters(hopefully anyway) take it very seriously....

Broadcasters have been a means of distributing School closing information for as long as I can remember, it was how I found out in the 70's whether I"d be taking the hour long bus ride, or shovelling snow at home. It's as much of a valid, public service as notifying you to a twister barrelling down on your house .... Do not assume "nobody cares" just because you do not. Many people DO CARE, and from what I can tell, many people need to pay more attention to the road conditions when there is that 1/4" of snow ... They seem to end up in my ditch all the time because they aren't paying enough attention to the road conditions, and no, they shouldn't need broadcasters to help them figure that out, but ....

Originally posted by William Smith
tell him how ungrateful you are about emergency information and you will get more than you bargained for.. People stayed with that site when 600 lbs blocks of ice were pealing off the tower ( They were in a metal storage container watching it fall) to keep it running until power was restored.. We are installing emergency power to all the digital plants now...

Make sure you do tell those folks how grateful some of us are for their work ....

cokebear

02-28-05, 09:18 PM

The discussion we've been having about Weather Warnings/School closings, Emergency info/etc, Public service as provided by broadcasters IS relevant to our discussion here IMO. It's an issue for local HD, because many stations don't have the equipment necessary to insert local graphics without dropping to SD feed. And remember, stations are required to provide public services, and they are required to transistion to digital and provide a digital signal, But they are NOT required to provide HD. And, the case presently is that they are doing nothing except LOSING money on their digital stations, HD is only costing them money currently ...

Put in my place again and rightly so. It always helps to step back and look at the big picture, the big beautiful HD picture.;)

tbenson81

02-28-05, 09:30 PM

Anyways - Serious question:

If there happens to be "breaking news" or something even you would deem newsworthy I propose this question.

I dont know if OTA is setup different but on cable we have the standard locals and the HD locals. If there is breaking news - CBS will show the news or school closings or weather on the standard CBS but keep its HD feed, channel 912 free of these issues. The other affiliates such as ABC and NBC seem to think they need this on both the HD feed and the SD feed. Why can CBS get it right and none of the others?

Those who wanted to see this news flash could tune to the standard local channel and those who didnt could watch the HD program of their show uninterrupted?

dusterscott

02-28-05, 09:39 PM

Actually, since I preferably watch the digital OTA stations, if a station is going to alert me to a REAL emergency, I'd like to see it on the digital/HD feed. I'm originally from up north, so I really don't want to hear about an upcoming 2" snowfall/ aka winter storm in Ohio. When I lived up north, shoveling 6" of snow was almost a daily occurence and you didn't see people in the ditch up there either! :)

William Smith

02-28-05, 09:47 PM

The point your missing is that what your calling the standard local channel is going away.. All of the information on the analog WILL be on the digital sooner or later...

Ask the people in Falmouth Ky about a little rain... their whole town was underwater in 1997...

And yes it cost us about $200/hr to get programming captioned and I have to spend money to protect those captions and make sure they get through to the viewer be he HD or SD..

tbenson81

02-28-05, 09:49 PM

Well CBS obviosuly knows whats up because they are doing it right

Duster seems to have the best grasp on what a true emergecny is here

William Smith

02-28-05, 09:56 PM

More than likely they don't have the equipment to drop the graphics over the HD yet....

Nitewatchman

02-28-05, 09:59 PM

Originally posted by tbenson81
1. Nitewatch - you claim I am wasting your time and then you go on to write a 6 page epic on the topic.

You are wasting my time. But that doesn't mean I won't continue replying until the cows come home if necessary ....

Originally posted by tbenson81
2. Again - I am not saying that the info isnt useful. However you do not have to interupt PRIME-TIME programming. Cut into Entertainment Tonight or Wheel of Fortune.

3. Interruption of primetime shows is not the NEWS. There is a separate show usually on at 10 or 11 entitled the NEWS.
Tv.yahoo.co to check your local listings

TV stations will break in whenever it is warranted, if they feel the news is "important" enough.

Originally posted by tbenson81

5. Demographics include those with plenty of discretionary income and education who can seek this information out. They dont need to be spoon fed it on a silver platter.

Disgusting and inaccurate. The Demographics for Digital TV include EVERYONE. One can purchase a fully capable HD set for the same cost(or less) now as a 25~27" Color set cost a little over 15 years ago. I have a 2nd, 26" HD (16x9 direct view) set I purchased over a year ago for $549 - New. That same set about 6 months later was available for $599 with a internal ATSC (HD/DTV) OTA receiver.

DTV and HD services provided by broadcasters are not solely for those with "plenty of discretionary income", and a high education level.
The programming,(HD+DTV) and public services offered by broadcasters are for ALL.

Again, you do not seem to be paying attention to the facts, and you are still not producing any actual facts that would support your posistion.

Originally posted by tbenson81

6. Again - you are stretching this topic as Billy is to comparing legit emergenices to rain and schools.

I believe we already covered this several times.

Originally posted by tbenson81
7. How do you say that you didnt have a contingency plan? I can think of many things you could have done and I am positive a radio would of been a lot more efficient and reliable than your tv.

See how you are wasting my time? I already stated I had a radio and used it. I also had more important necesssities for survival, such as plenty of water, food, medical supplies/etc/etc ....

But in this specific case:

#1) For instance, The radio didn't show me the bridge 5 miles down the road or the conditions in various places in the community. The TV did. The nearest NWS radio transmitter (although I had a receiver) was not receivable because of terrain issues.

#2). The radio stations I was capable of receiving did not have the resources avialable to fully cover the story.

#3). The radio didn't provide all the info I needed to decide when, and whether or not I should attempt to return home. The TV/WLWT did.

#4) The radio didn't show me the homes and business of folks I knew in the area - The TV did. It even showed me that some folks I knew were safe(as they interviewed them), the radio didn't. Several folks in the community were killed, btw, and it didn't have anything to do with "discretionary income" or "education" ....

Originally posted by tbenson81

8. This is again your biggest mistake and my FINAL POINT - THIS TYPE OF INFORMATION IS NOT EMERGENCY RELATED.

Again, I thought we already covered this. The "winter weather advisory" bug that is currently on my screen from some local stations certianly IS emergency related.

I suggest you discuss some of your points with local emergency personel - Police, fire, paramedics/etc. If you know any insurance adjusters, you might ask them what they experience, in some cases in the aftermath of what you don't consider to be "emergency related".

Originally posted by tbenson81

believe that the main purpose of television expecially today when there are so many means to receive information should be for entertainment purposes and to notify us of legit emergencies.

Television is a broad catagory. What we are talking about here is an issue which involves local TV broadcasters/broadcasting and their Public service obligations.

What you want is "bug free", interruption free HD(althogh you are going to still get interruptions when a national emergency, or event of "national significance" occurs) via a direct feed from the broadcast networks.

While, again, as I said before -- I can appreciate that, local broadcasters(most of which are network affiliates which means they have the sole rights to distribute the networks programming in their market), and their viewers have other "needs" as well. And, without the network affiliation(or if a good viewers in the area can bypass them+go to other sources for Network programming provided by their cable/sat providers), many of the commerical broadcasters would probably not be able to survive.

So we can't all have our cake and eat it too, and THAT is what you seem to want. We sometimes have to live with minor inconvienances in the interest of the larger "picture" ....

Nitewatchman

02-28-05, 10:25 PM

Originally posted by William Smith
Ask the people in Falmouth Ky about a little rain... their whole town was underwater in 1997...

I remember ... Adams County(where I was at the time - A "holler" in the back parts of Blue Creek, Ohio specifically) was hit hard as well, and I thought the local stations did an excellent job covering "Flood of 97" ... WAGX 101.3 FM Manchester(a town which also went mostly underwater) even went out of their "automated" mode+provided actual news reports/info and emergency info(other than from NWS) ...

The enquirer has an excellent permanent archived website on the Flood of 97 for those who don't remember it :

http://www.enquirer.com/flood_of_97/

Originally posted by tbenson81

Those who wanted to see this news flash could tune to the standard local channel and those who didnt could watch the HD program of their show uninterrupted?

Yes. What the local stations send cable is the exact SAME thing they send OTA. If you see school closings on the analog station, and not on the HD feed/digital station via cable, the same thing happens OTA.

In some cases, it's up to the station how to "interpet" how best to serve the "public interest". Given that FCC dropped their analog simulcast rule for the remainder of the transistion, they are probably more likely to keep the HD feed up on the digital station rather than drop to SD to provide reports.

When the digital transistion is OVER however, there will only be the one, digital station.

What I do if they break in on the Cincinnati station with a "weather report"/etc, or, if they drop to SD to insert graphics that I'm not "interested in", I'll switch to the HD from the Dayton station. As I said before, the Dayton stations(so far anyway that I've noticed) doesn't ever drop to SD to insert bugs(they have broke into programming with live "doppler radar coverage" however, in which case I'd then switch to the HD from the Cincinnati station<g> ), as they run a SD subchannel on their digital station that is a 100% simucast of analog programming, which obviously contains all the locally inserted graphics/etc. the analog station does. This however, does impair HD PQ during bandwidth demanding portions of programming, especially from the Dayton CBS HD station.

However, a couple of the Dayton stations have recently dropped their SD subchannel, so I'm not sure what exactly will happen in those cases.

Hopefully, by the time the analogs shut off, stations will have the capability or resources to insert local graphics(besides a simple ID bug, I believe most MPEGII/HD encoders can do this) into HD, rather than having to drop to SD ....

As William said, it's likely precisely because they don't have the capability to do this presently why you sometimes see the weather bugs/school closings on the analog, while the digital remains with HD feed(as is the case presently with the "winter weather advisory" bug on WLWT 5 Analog, and HD (w/o the weather advisory) on WLWT-DT 35 ....

----------------------------

Now -- Some of the above concerning my "viewing habits" may seem "hypocritical" to the position I've been taking ... BUT that posistion was NOT about my personal viewing habits, it was about broadcasters public service obligations ... And obviously, If I want to watch, say a NBC HD program and I'm comfortable with the weather situation --- I'm not going to sit and continously watch 2 hours of "super - doppler radar" weather coverage on say, the Cincinnati NBC station if I can tune to Dayton and continue watching NBC HD ;-)

JunkyardDogg

02-28-05, 10:57 PM

GUYS YOU ARE WASTING SPACE ON THIS THREAD BY DISCUSSING THIS BULLSH!T!

We need to be told about 'emergency' situations and for now, we will not have HD programming for the day or night of the problem. The options in the future will allow them to overlay the graphics on HD signals, or put it on the subchannel. It really doesn't matter!

I would say instead of 'Discussing' something useless, lets start a new letter campaign to WCPO and hold them accountable for fixing their digital station.

Junk

cokebear

02-28-05, 11:07 PM

Just was messing around with my new antenna, inserted a splitter to run into the FM on my stereo, unfortunately I lost just enough to cause problems with TV reception. What would you suggest to overcome this? A good preamp, a multiswitch, or just don't listen to radio(lots of commercials anyway):D . Any solution where I still get both would have to be cheap, I don't listen to radio much. There is a chance I will end up extending a run to another tv before too long if I do decide to drop the locals from E* so gimme the + and - of all.

UPDATE: Just thought I should mention that I do not and will not have a mast. The install is going to be a little unusual and I will try to post a pic after I get it finished.

Nitewatchman

02-28-05, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by microbob
I'm watching AI, and I notice that the Large blue Fox deault logo that was cut off has been replaced by the small transparent Fox logo. XIX must have inserted it locally into the splicer from Fox.

Its back to the default logo on 24. I noticed that the local station break was black. Testing perhaps?

Interesting, especially given that last Wed. during AI, there was no splicer inserted bug on WXIX-DT or WRGT-DT, or the east coast feed for that matter according to reports I've seen in programming area, instead, for just that hour, it was the default white Fox bug(same as used on the analog), in the 4x3 area coming through on the HD feed, although AI HD(16x9) throughout ...

From what I understand from the Fox engineers who post on AVS, While the splicer local bug is inserted by the splicer at the affiliate, the commands to actually insert the bug are controlled at the network level -- and, the station actually has to send the local bug they want to use to Fox in order for it to be inserted -- For instance, I believe you also receive WDKY-DT Fox Lexington, KY -- they had to send their Fox56 bug to Fox in order for it to "work", and I think the big, blue splicer inserted(inserted by WXIX's splicer) Fox bug is as you mentioned, the default bug that gets inserted by the splicer if Fox hasn't set up WXIX's splicer to send a local graphic, which would, I assume contain "Fox19" ...

So hard to say ... Could have come from the local splicer, and might think so if it had the same placement as the splicer inserted bug, but I suppose it could have also been inserted by Fox w/o the splicers ... I didn't get a chance to check it out tonight ... If I had I would have checked WRGT-DT Fox Dayton as well to see if same thing was happening, in which case it would have been a network thing ...

Nitewatchman

02-28-05, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by cokebear
Just was messing around with my new antenna, inserted a splitter to run into the FM on my stereo, unfortunately I lost just enough to cause problems with TV reception. What would you suggest to overcome this? A good preamp, a multiswitch, or just don't listen to radio(lots of commercials anyway):D . Any solution where I still get both would have to be cheap, I don't listen to radio much. There is a chance I will end up extending a run to another tv before too long if I do decide to drop the locals from E* so gimme the + and - of all.

UPDATE: Just thought I should mention that I do not and will not have a mast. The install is going to be a little unusual and I will try to post a pic after I get it finished.

Are you using diplexers to combine Sat+OTA onto one line? If so, I'd get rid of those, first, and run a seperate line to the antenna if at all possible, as the diplexers they cause some additional insertion loss(signal loss).

A good preamp might help you out, chances are good I'd think that it should lower the overall Noise figure of the system, and it would compensate for splitter. Something like CM7778 might be a good choice for you. It's hard to say, though. Sometimes a preamp can hurt more than it can help, too if it's overloaded(that shouldn't be a problem for you for your location I'd think as long as you use FM trap given your proximity to WPFB-FM, most amps like CM7778 have a switchable FM trap), and I suppose it is also possible that it could potentially make your electrical noise interference problem worse ....

Of course -- If you go the preamp route, since you are probably going to want/need to use the FM trap to keep strong FM signals from overloading preamp, you'll of course be "attenuating" the FM band, which means you might not be able to get weaker FM stations on the radio ... A seperate FM antenna (rabbit ears) would probably be better idea ... Even those wire dipole"rabbit ear" that usually come with audio recievers should work for you for at least the local FM signals ...

If you go the preamp route, You would still want to get rid of diplexors and run a seperate line to antenna -- place the mast mount amp(that doesn't necessarily mean it HAS to go on a mast, all it means is it receives it's power from along the coax as supplied by a power supply plugged in inside your house) as close to antenna as possible for best results ... You absolutely have to get rid of diplexors and run a seperate line with a preamp such as CM7778, as it needs different voltage than sat receiver sends ... I think there are a couple of preamps out there which will work with power from the sat receiver .. don't know which .. You might get a better answer on the antenna thread ...

I could be wrong, but I don't think a multiswitch is going to help you out, nor it it needed given your E*+Dish 500 setup ... Except for one expensive, powered model I've heard of(As in $300+) which is supposedly "no loss", they'll have insertion loss too, I'd think ... I've never had a need to look for them, but maybe they're are lower loss diplexers as well, they might be on the expensive side of things too, though ... And in any case, running a seperate line would be better ...

microbob

03-01-05, 12:04 AM

No it wasn't at the bottom of the screen like the default bug is,nor was it cut off in the over scan portion of the screen since AI was in HD 16:9. It was at the same position as WDKY has its logo. It did not contain the CH 19 call letters. It could've been inserted at the network level just for AI.

DrDon

03-01-05, 08:09 AM

I think the reason the bug is different on AI is because it's live. The same feed is going out for analog and digital use, so the bug for analog is inserted in the live production. Saves time and effort. They've been doing the same thing on Fox News Sunday for a while, now.

tbenson81

03-01-05, 08:33 AM

This has been the most exciting this board has been!

Talk about beating a dead horse - how many days in a row does everyone have to talk about WCPO "jaggies" or the fox bug.

Nitewatch - Have the cows come home yet?

jim tressler

03-01-05, 09:23 AM

Its allways good to see spirited debate.. and since I kinda started the debate - here is my final take on it - last night was a prime example - for a dusting of snow you would have thought the white death was upon us :) We didnt need that last night - if its a tornado, then yes tell me if its a light snowfall - dont tell me, thats what I watch the news for

jim

gerhard911

03-01-05, 09:36 AM

^^^

Chicken Little anyone ?

Or how about the Little Boy Who Cried Wolf ?

Public Service or Self Serving ?

tbenson81

03-01-05, 10:22 AM

Does anyone know for sure if a program that has been delayed will ever be shown in HD or will it always be shown in the standard format?

Example: Tomorrow night - we will receive the "bearcat bounce" on Fox where the original programming slated for that time slot will be pushed back to 11 oclock or midnight. I believe its "american idol" tomorrow that is affected. Is there any chance at all that we will see this in HD at 11:00 pm tomorrow night?

Nitewatchman

03-01-05, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by DrDon
I think the reason the bug is different on AI is because it's live. The same feed is going out for analog and digital use, so the bug for analog is inserted in the live production. Saves time and effort. They've been doing the same thing on Fox News Sunday for a while, now.

Doc,

Makes sense.

I only saw the standard white Fox bug on AI on just one airing -- last Wednesday. We were also discussing it here : http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5240693#post5240693

On Fox News Sunday(the spinning cube logo)+Sports, as you say the same bugs are used.

Originally posted by jim tressler

last night was a prime example - for a dusting of snow you would have thought the white death was upon us

That's not the impression I got. They forcasted a few inches of snow(which is a difficult thing to forcast in an exact manner), and that's what it looks like we are getting. As I said, if the NWS issues a "winter weather advisory", then it'll pop up on your screen from the stations which particpate in EAS/EBS ... The stations don't issue the weather alerts ...

Originally posted by tbenson81
Talk about beating a dead horse - how many days in a row does everyone have to talk about WCPO "jaggies" or the fox bug.

There has been some, but I haven't seen all that much discussion of WXIX's Fox bug here, and, prior to oscars, I haven't seen much recent comment about WCPO's "jaggies"/1280x360 effective resolution issue either ...

I doubt either issue is a "dead horse", and I expect, "someday" both issues to be addressed by the stations involved ... Although I'm not so sure how effective a letter writing campaign to WCPO would be, as there is nothing that "requires" them to send HD in the first place ... We'll probably just have to wait until they get it figured out, which might not be until they get their upgrades from ABC, if even then ... It wouldn't hurt if they continue to receive reports(not just from the same few folks) about the issue, however ...

And, I'm sure you will continue to see complaints about Bugs, Weather bugs, Weather reports here even AFTER stations have the ability to insert local graphics into HD ... Just don't expect those reports, and bugs/etc to go away ....

Nitewatchman

03-01-05, 10:38 AM

Originally posted by tbenson81
Is there any chance at all that we will see this in HD at 11:00 pm tomorrow night?

See here for the answer to your question :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=5233688#post5233688

tbenson81

03-01-05, 11:22 AM

Do any of the networks have the ability to timeshift HD?

Nitewatchman

03-01-05, 11:46 AM

tbenson81,

It's not the networks, it's the local stations. The Network East Coast feed continues "as normal" ... For instance, WRGT-DT Fox Dayton will air American Idol in HD tomorrow night at 9 from the Fox HD feed.

I'm not sure to what extent any of the local stations have HD timeshifting capablities -- In a "full fledged" manner - So, far, besides WPTO-DT/WCET-DT as mentioned below to at least some degree -- there has been no indiction that I've seen that any of them do. For example, if they were to have to Timeshift HD from the Network feed by 15 minutes, I'm not sure any of the local stations have that capability.

WPTO-DT (ThinkTV/PBS Oxford-Cincinnati - their digital station broadcasts from WXIX fox tower in Cincinnati, the analog broadcasts from oxford) Timeshifts PBS HD programming that runs on PBS HD channel at other times to Sat-Sun evenings(the only time they air HD), that's the only station in the area I've "specifically" seen "timeshift" anything HD .. WCET-DT has also ran a frampton show in HD, as well as locally produced HD programming when other programming was airing on PBS HD feed .. Also, From TVnick's post about the recent HD production that has aired on WCET-DT, I expect they also have some sort of timeshifting capability ... Update: I had almost forgotten ... WCET-DT did used to timeshift some of the PBS HD programming to their own HD schedule, before PBS offered a "full time" PBS HD channel ... For instance, you might tune in at 10pm and get a HD "great performances" that was sent on PBS's National HD feed at 2pm in the afternoon, while the PBS National feed at 10pm consisted of PBS HD demo loops they used to often run ..

Just being able to record, and play back HD at another time is a different story -- Yes, that is "timeshifting" too, but not necessarily the capability to "cooridinate" and insert local ad breaks on both the analog and digital station, or to play back HD in a "slightly delayed" fashion ... For example, if the local sports event lasted until 9:15pm, but the HD show started from the network feed at 9 ...

for instance -- WXIX-DT played a HD UC game(one that didn't air in HD) on a weekday afternoon a while back - as Doc mentioned earlier about this, perhaps not with the use of equipment WXIX-DT owned(might have been equipment from the production crew, with the playback being from "test footage" to get ready for the two games we're getting live in HD from them this year). And, WKRC-DT ran the syndicated HD-One movies at different times in HD on the digital station(oftentimes w/o any local ad inserts, esecially for their latter HD, HD-one movies), they also played back HD fireworks in HD one year on a weekday afternoon, , and in the past(it's been a while), I've seen WCPO/WKRC(and maybe WLWT as well) ...

Oh, yeah, and WLWT ran that HD syndicated show a couple of saturdays ago ... It did run at the same time on both the analog+digital station, but I don't know if they were getting it off a sat feed at the time or from a recording(which probably would have been on a hard drive coming off of a server, but who knows ) ...

In Indiana, I do know stations do, and have to have HD timeshift capability, because of "Indiana time" staying EST during the summer, when everyone else(including the HD feeds from the Networks) "changes" to EDT ...

HDTVChallenged

03-01-05, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by William Smith
More than likely they don't have the equipment to drop the graphics over the HD yet....

I've noticed that WAVE in Louisville has had the ability to overlay a crawler line on their HD feed for a while now. It barely covers the bottom of the NBC network bug. :) ... smaller even than the ESPN "bottom-line"

Nitewatchman

03-01-05, 12:38 PM

WLWT-DT inserted a crawl during 2002 HD Olympics coverage without dropping to SD .. It told us that they would be off air in March 2002 due to installation of a new transmitter ...

Later that summer, the entire top half of WLWT/WCET tower came down for strengthening to support the permanent WCET/WLWT DTV transmitting antennas .. WCET/WLWT analog and WGUC 90.9 also use that tower ... During the time that was going on, WLWT/WCET analogs operated at low power(from obviously a temporary "lower" antenna setup), and WLWT-DT was off the air quite a bit up until mid-late fall 2002, when WCET-DT also first came on air(With a single, HD program service from PBS HD feed) ...

The HD Olympics from WLWT-DT wasn't but a month or so after they first were "HD capable", even though I think they were on the air with DTV as early as Feb 98, making them one of the very first DTV stations to make it on the air .. I'd heard 50 years to the day their analog station came on air, they put a DTV signal on the air, displacing WOTH-LP 35 to 39 ..(WOTH later had to move to 38 to make way for WKOI-DT 39, and since has moved to 25) ... Crosley of course operated a experimental TV station(the predecessor to WLWT) with callsign of W8XCT as early as 1937 ..

WBNS Columbus was next DTV station on air in the area in spring or summer of 98 ... If I recall correctly, Both WCPO-DT/WKRC-DT were on air by late 98 - with HD -- One or the other or both carried the "first" HD broadcast -- the 98 Glen Shuttle launch ..William would know more, but I think WKPC-DT Louisville was up in 99, and WKLE not long after the first PBS DT's anywhere around here ...

Not counting Cleveland<g> WXIX was next in late 2000(they also had HD capablity as well) .. By the time I picked up a HD set/HD receiver in Nov 2001, WHIO-DT Dayton had signed on in Oct 2001 with CBS HD as well ... Next up was WCVN-DT in late January, the WKEF-DT(NBC HD Dayton) in Feb with HD Olympics coverage ... Most of The rest of the 15 Dayton/Cincinnati digitals signed on between May 2002 and dec 2002, with WBDT-DT signing on late winter 2003, WPTD-DT in spring 2003, and WPTO-DT being last in June 2004 ... 14 of the 15 (the exception being WKOI-DT (TBN)) pass HD, all except WKOI are up near the tops of the towers, and most are at "full power" ...

Hopefully, when FCC opens the filing window, WBQC-CA 38, UPN Cincinnati
will have some luck finding a 2nd companion channel for digital as I believe is their intention ...

I don't know, but I would expect the other LP's in SW Ohio(listed below) to probably flash cut to digital on channel at some point:

Cincinnati:
WOTH-LP 25(IND)

W61DE(TBN translator) - has a app(NTSC) on file to move to 36 - I question whether that is a good idea, given WTVQ 36 Lexington ...

Dayton:
WRCX-LP 40 Dayton(IND) (displaced off 51 by WKEF-DT in feb 02, did not make it back on air on 40 until Jan 2004)

WWRD-LP 55(Ind) Dayton - current analog CP to move to 32

W47BC - TBN translator Springfield - CP to move to 20 because of contour overlap with WTLW-DT 47 Lima, Ohio.

HDTVChallenged

03-01-05, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
W61DE(TBN translator) - has a app(NTSC) on file to move to 36 - I question whether that is a good idea, given WTVQ 36 Lexington ...

Personally, I hope WDKY is eyeing 36 (along with 18, 27 and 46) for a move after the analog shutoff ... If there were a digital station, that by all rights, I *should* be able to get trouble free - WDKY would be it ... but no :D

Either that or stop pretending that "Danville" is their "community of license." At this point, it's pretty clear that things are worse here since the new tower went up.

rleist

03-01-05, 02:26 PM

The Bearcat game tomorow night is in HD right? You is responsible for getting that HD info to the schedulers like DirecTV or Titan?

Rob

jim tressler

03-01-05, 02:39 PM

i assume "you" is who is responsible?? I think its up to the local station if its not a network broadcast - but I dont think there is any requirement to say if its hd or not, just that its on the dt station

jim

cokebear

03-01-05, 04:14 PM

Thanks again Jeff I'll try to keep all that in mind as I tinker around with this setup. The diplexers may have to stay for a while, at least until it gets a bit warmer and weather or not we keep the locals on the dish. It's just a shame we have no way to record a show on locals in hd or even sd without using the E*receiver. It was really cool finding over 20 FM stations which would come in crystal clear but we rarely lisen to the radio anymore so it was never a big concern.

Just for a quick report:
5-1 76
9-1 73
12-1 70
14-2 75
19-1 59
48-2 45
51-1 20 not enough
58-1 20 not enough
64-1 49

These are peaks on the built in signal meter, the lower UHF numbers are no doubt from the fact that the UHF corner reflectors are not installed.

Analogs:
2 Static/ghosting, good sound
5 static, good sound
7 severe ghosting, good sound
9 clear pic, good sound
12 clear pic, good sound
14 some snow, slight ghosting, good sound
16 severe ghosting, lots of static in sound
19 slight static, some ghosting, good sound
22 severe ghosting, some static in sound
26 ghosting, some static in pic, clear sound
38 snowy pic, good sound\
43 some ghosting, good sound
45 heavy static and ghosting
48 some snow/ghosting, good sound
61 heavy snow, staticy sound
64 slight snow, good sound

dusterscott

03-01-05, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by dusterscott
Back on pages 138 and 139 I was involved in a discussion with Nightwatchman and Smackman regarding a Winegard Sensar OTA. Smackman is having reception problems. I use a Sensar II amplified OTA to pull in Cincinnati stations and I had been using a Radio Shack amplifier to make it work. I was informed by Nightwatchman that I should be using a power supply to power this antenna so I ordered the correct Winegard PS-9370 power supply. I received this today and thought I'd pass on my results.

WLWT (5 Analog) Before: Snowy Picture Now: Snowy Picture (no change)
WLWT (5-1) Before: 69% signal Now: 45% signal
WCPO (9 Analog) Before: Snowy Picture Now: Some snow
WCPO (9-1) Before: 77% signal Now: 45% signal
WKRC (12 Analog) Before: Snowy Now: Snowy (no change)
WKRC (12-1) Before: 45% signal Now: 69% signal
WPTO (14 Analog) Before: no pic/snow Now: No pic/snow (no change)
WPTO (14-x) Before: 45% signal Now: 69% signal
WXIX (19 Analog) Before: some snow Now: some snow (no change)
WXIX (19-1) Before: 54% signal Now: 69% signal
WCET (48 Analog) Before: some snow Now: some snow (no change)
WCET (48-x) Before: 45% signal Now: 69 - 77%
WSTR (64 Analog) Before: snowy Now: some snow (better)
WSTR (64-1) Before: snowy Now: no signal

I don't have a signal meter on analog stations so I can only give a description. Analog stations aren't important to me especially since they are snowy so I've deleted them from my guide. I don't SEE a difference in the picture quality now that I'm using a power supply instead of an amplifier. I've always had a good picture on the digital OTA stations. I know my receiver's signal strength meter isn't a true measurement of signal strength but I believe it can be a relative number for comparison purposes such as I've done here. BTW all signal readings were the peak readings and they do jump around a bit for the most part. I was hoping to at least be able to get 64-1 (WSTR-DT) but I still can't for some reason is spite of a rescan.

Cokebear:

I thought I'd insert my previous posting here for a comparison. I posted this yesterday but I'm not sure if it got read with the debate that was going on at the time. Anyways it looks like we get similar reception. Although I'm perplexed as to why I'm not getting 64-1. I'm not too far from the I-75, SR122 Interchange. I can see the Dixie Hwy, SR122 intersection from my living room window.

Nitewatchman

03-01-05, 05:19 PM

First off, to hopefully avoid any confusion WCPO-DT is the only digital station that broadcasts on VHF in Cincinnati or Dayton, all the others broadcast on UHF. The channel #'s cokebear listed are the REMAPPED channel numbers. The stations send channel remapping data via PSIP so the digital stations appear next to their analog counterpart, which allows them to keep their existing channel branding, and is supposed to be less confusing for viewers.

WKRC-DT 31(remaps to 12-1), WLWT-DT 35(remaps to 5-1), and WPTO-DT 28(remaps to 14-x) are the highest power DTV stations in Cincinnati. I would assume that is why cokebear is seeing higher readings from them as compared to the other UHF DTV stations.

You can find the actual channels the stations transmit on in the first post on this thread, or via FCC TV query here :

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html

Nitewatchman

03-01-05, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by dusterscott
I posted this yesterday but I'm not sure if it got read

My response to your previous post(which you just quoted again) is here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5254877#post5254877

If my comments in that response STILL aren't helpful enough in addition to my earlier posts on your "issues", I would suggest you check out the AVSforum Antenna thread here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=5256961#post5256961

Originally posted by dusterscott
Although I'm perplexed as to why I'm not getting 64-1.

WSTR-DT 33 (remaps to 64-1) is running low power currently. I'd bet you'll have a good shot at getting them if you aimed your VU-160(the antenna you are using for Dayton reception) towards Cincinnati. The sensar is not much of an antenna.

If you haven't done a channel rescan since WSTR changed their PID's a while back, you might need to do that as well.

Keep in mind, Cokebear is in a apartment complex and can't put his antenna on the roof.

FWIW, I have no problems receiving any of the 35 analog(21 of these)+digital(14 of these) Cincinnati/Dayton/N KY stations up here on Butler/Montgomery county line between Middletown+Germantown. There are also folks in North Dayton receiving the Cincinnati stations just fine. I do have a decent antenna setup. The analog stations are crystal clear, except just a tad bit of snow on some of the weaker low power analogs like 40+55 Dayton ...

Nitewatchman

03-01-05, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by dusterscott
I was informed by Nightwatchman that I should be using a power supply to power this antenna so I ordered the correct Winegard PS-9370 power supply.

AGAIN, that is NOT quite what I said, as I have no idea if the Sensar antenna you have actually has a amplifier in it or not. I only have what you tell me to go on.

The PS-9370 power supply is only needed, and will only work if the Sensar GS-2000 you say are using actually has a working amplifier inside the antenna casing(a GS1000, the ones DirecTV installers usually install are NOT the amplfied version of the Sensar), and if the power supply is properly installed and, if both the amplifier inside the antenna+the power supply is working.

The power supply will do absolutely nothing if the Sensar you are using does NOT have a amplifier in it. The distribution amp from Radio shack you are using can NOT power the amplfier in the antenna.

AGAIN, for more information, See my reply to your previous post here, as well as my previous comments/posts in this thread on the subject in reply to your posts :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5254877#post5254877

Please read more carefully.

dusterscott

03-01-05, 06:13 PM

Jeff: Sorry I missed your reply to me last night. I don't think I've misunderstood anything you've told me though Jeff. I have an amplified Sensar II. I was told by an engineer at Winegard, and by you, that if I have the amplified version, it should be powered by a power supply. I have no reason to believe my antenna is not amplified. Winegard told me to use PS-9370. DirecTV, when they hooked up the Sensar, tried to power it by diplexing it with the satellite dish. I can't see why they would have taken the amplifier out of it. The second crew that came out to look at the antenna told me that the wrong diplexers were being used. They offered to install the correct ones but I insisted on them running a separate cable to my receiver.

Anyways:

I did a rescan last night and still can't get 64-1.

I just measured voltage at the power supply jack and am getting 15.52 VAC. However, when I connect the coax cable from the Sensar to the power supply, the red light on the power supply goes out or is so dim that I can barely tell it's on. Is this normal?

Nitewatchman

03-01-05, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by dusterscott
I just measured voltage at the power supply jack and am getting 15.52 VAC. However, when I connect the coax cable from the Sensar to the power supply, the red light on the power supply goes out or is so dim that I can barely tell it's on. Is this normal?

No, that's not normal. IT should remain glowing bright red, it shouldn't change. I just connected+disconnected the coax run to a mast mounted amp to a PS-9370 to make sure -- The light didn't even flicker ....

Since it sounds like the power supply is working correctly, as long as you have nothing except coax+F-Connectors and a ground block(for proper grounding of outer shield of coax - you don't need the ground block for power to be properly sent to amp from the power supply, however) between the power supply and the Sensar, it Sounds like there is a bad connection/short somewhere, or the amp in the antenna is bad - If it was hooked up incorrectly for a time+getting the "wrong" power from a DirecTV Sat receiver through the diplexers/etc, I suppose that might be what caused the problem .. Lightning would be the only other thing I could think of that would have messed it up if it was working to begin with ... Does anyone know what the D* STB's send out via coax to power the LNB -AC/DC voltage/etc?

If the antenna is amplifed version and the amp in antenna is working properly, and it is receiving power, you should see a marked improvement in reception(well beyond any improvement you were getting by adding the RS distribution amp) as compared to w/o the power supply, as, if the ampflier is not powered, it would greatly attenuate the signals coming off the antenna by several 10's of db or more, as I demonstrated by those screenshots in an earlier post ... If the antenna does not have an amp inside, I'd think it might, perhaps cause the symptoms you are seeing with the light on the power supply but I don't know that for sure ...

Hopefully it's just a bad connection or coax is pinched somewhere that won't be too difficult for you to fix ... In which case, other than a loose F connector, it could be a strand of wire from the outer conductor on the coax making contact with the center conductor somewhere in the line. Probably more likely on the ends where the F-connectors are put on, but it could be anywhere in the line if it got "pinched" somewhere and the outer conductor got through the dielectric to make contact with the inner conductor ... Hopefully you haven't had squirrels chewing on it, that's a true story that actually happened to someone I know ... ;)

Maybe when it gets more "hospitable" on the roof you could swap your coax runs around between your Dayton/Cincinnati antennas and see if the light remains glowing like it should+your reception improves, if so then you'll probably know you've got a bad connection on the coax to the sensar or the line is pinched somewhere ....

If it isn't a "bad connection" in the line, and it turns out the amp in the antenna is bad, the antenna will probably have to be replaced. If you don't need good reception of Dayton analogs stations on 2+&7, If it were me, I'd probably aim that VU-160 towards Cincinnati(maybe adding a Good mast mount preamp to it), and use a CM4221, or another UHF only antenna For Dayton digitals(which are all on UHF, and at this point at least it looks like they are going to stay that way) .... The RS U75R UHF antenna might do the trick as well, both are inexpensive, small antennas .... CM4221 especially might still even work well for Dayton analog 7, maybe 2 as well, but I especially wouldn't count on the latter ...

HDTVChallenged

03-01-05, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
Does anyone know what the D* STB's send out via coax to power the LNB -AC/DC voltage/etc?

Either ~13VDC or ~18VDC depending on even/odd transponder selection. The winegard power supplies usually have "fault-protection" built in, I suspect the dimmed LED indicates the PS has shutdown due to a short.

PS: My AP4800 pre-amp's PS sends AC current not DC

Nitewatchman

03-01-05, 07:01 PM

Thanks HDC ... I agree with your assesment ... Unless there was a DC block on the diplexors to the OTA antenna side, and if there actually is a amp in the antenna(depending upon for instance the 300ohm-75 ohm conversion in the antenna, the short he is seeing could very well just be a symptom of there actually being NO amp in the antenna), it sounds like the D* installers may originally have had him setup so the amp in the Sensar antenna was getting sent DC voltage from his D* STB, ...If so,

#1) That may not have been too good on the amp, which might be causing his problem/short now unless he has a bad connection/pinched line, or something in the line now(such as 2 way splitter) which is blocking the current ...

#2). That wasn't very smart(unless there isn't a amp in the antenna) of them, given that the sensar's AMP needs ~15.3 VAC, and of course, that couldn't be done with diplexing sat/ota onto one line -- They should have known a seperate coax run was needed ... sigh ...

----------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, all winegard preamps/PS I know of or have ever used use AC, either 19.3 VAC or 15.3 VAC ... The Sensar II amp needs 15.3 VAC, which is what the PS-9370 sends ....

dusterscott

03-01-05, 07:10 PM

Well I don't feel comfortable powering the Sensar with the power supply if the light going out is not normal. So I've reverted back to my original setup for now. That is - RS OTA for Dayton, Sensar for Cincinnati with separate coax cables to an A/B switch, then the RS amplifier. You know, I get a very good digital picture with the current setup so I'm just going to use the Sensar for now. When the weather gets warmer, I'll sell the Sensar, use my current RS OTA for the Cincinnati stations, and get the RS OTA that you recommended for my Dayton stations.

Nitewatchman

03-01-05, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by dusterscott
When the weather gets warmer, I'll sell the Sensar,

I'd sell it back to the D* installer who sold it to you, for at least twice the price <g>

Nitewatchman

03-01-05, 08:05 PM

The Fox Bug Microbob was talking about on AI is back tonight ... On the HD feed, it's outside of 4x3 area, in Lower RH corner(but even a set with probably about 6-7% overscan or more would still see it all), SD bug on the analogs is as normal ....

And, it's a network thing, as it's there on WRGT-DT Dayton and WXIX-DT Cincinnati ... It's just a white, slightly transparent "FOX" bug ...

microbob

03-01-05, 09:01 PM

54-4 KET4 HD is black tonight. The ID were shown but it went to black. Must be having problems with the feed again from Lexington KY.

Nitewatchman

03-01-05, 09:11 PM

Originally posted by microbob
54-4 KET4 HD is black tonight. The ID were shown but it went to black.

Yep, went to KET4/WCVN-DT for Frontline WS, noticed that and tuned to WCET-DT(WPTD-DT Dayton being my other possiblility) instead ... KET1+2 are fine ...

Update: KET4 is fixed now at 9:19pm EST ...

William Smith

03-01-05, 10:33 PM

I'm trying to catch the problem... but I have a life and was at home tonight...

Its something in the PBS feed that the decoder doesn't like..

WebHopperWeasel

03-02-05, 12:18 AM

Originally posted by tbenson81
If someone wants this information, they can check the internet and if they dont have that, they can pick up the damn phone, be proactive and find out themselves.

Instead of arguing I will add my 2 cents to only this comment.

Do you really think we have enough phone lines and people to actually deal with people calling us to ask if school, church, business X is closed?

It's hard enough to take calls and such from the personnel authorized to allow us to show the closures.

And.... not everyone has the internet.

It's a public service.... and weather alerts are mandated. Generally you don't see much of them when the stations are actually running in HD.

There will come a time when there will be HD equals to the SD bugs, crawls, weather alerts, etc

Weasel

tbenson81

03-02-05, 12:36 AM

Its called an automated system pal. There isnt a person sitting at a little desk with a portfolio of all the closings. And everyone can afford a radio so there is no excuse.

You can make the argument for severe weather, but if you are back to school closings than this isnt even going to be a challenge. There is no reason for school closings to interrupt programming. NONE whatsoever

jim tressler

03-02-05, 08:00 AM

dont forget.. uc in HD again tonight on wxix!!!

heres a question and or some speculation.. are the cameras UC's or WXIX? Does anyone else think they held of on the hd braodcast becasue of the time warner issue?

jim

DrDon

03-02-05, 08:37 AM

Jim..

Neither. Rented truck. And, yes, UC HD was held off on due to lack of cable carriage. Know this for a fact.

Weasel..

Exactly what I was getting at. I've got no issue with crawls over HD programming. My only complaint (and WKRC isn't guilty of it) was dropping to SD for the bugs, crawls, etc. I must admit, I haven't noticed as much of that, this year. In fact, I'm sometimes surprised when I put one of my other sets on an analog station and see a weather bug or scroll that wasn't running on the DT. Even caught WLWT running a news interrupt on 5, but they left network HD running uninterrupted on DT35. KUDOS.

I'll be honest, I'm not even going to mind smaller weather bugs and crawls (with the added resolution, they don't need to be as big to be readable) on HD when the time comes. Unfortunately, to support legacy sets through the transition, those bugs are going to be in the 4:3 area for a while and the crawls will still need to be big.

microbob

03-02-05, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by William Smith
I'm trying to catch the problem... but I have a life and was at home tonight...

Its something in the PBS feed that the decoder doesn't like..

I'm sure you'll figure it out William. Just have to be patient, Those bugs are hard to catch.

Nitewatchman

03-02-05, 02:26 PM

Tbenson81,

You are barking up the wrong tree. If you want the school closing info to stop scrolling across the screen and instead you want "call centers" to handle distribution of that information: Then Call every school, church, civic organization and business with more than a few employees within 50 miles of Cincinnati and tell them your theory. Tell them you don't like the broadcasters providing school closings/delay info as a public service, and tell them you do not want them to contact the TV stations with their school closing/delay information. Tell each school district you contact that you want them to set up a "call center" instead. Also tell them there is no reason to contact the TV stations with their school closing information because everyone owns, or can afford a radio. Be sure to especially pay attention at how hard they laugh before they hang up, or think about how hard they are laughing after they hang up ...

I'm not arguing -- helping others to understand the often complicated DTV transistion, and the related issues involved and the facts involved is a part of what AVSforum is all about. DTV transistion and the related issues involved has turned out to be so complicated in some cases that even the most knowedgable of folks have to have their posted information "corrected" from time to time, and most of us WELCOME that sort of correction.

We've TRIED posting the facts related to the issue you seem to be so interested in, but you continue to ignore the facts. If people take the time to respond to your posts, it is expected that you take the time to read, and consider their comments. It is quite apparent many of our comments on this issue are falling on deaf ears. I try to tolerate as much as I can given the often complicated nature of DTV transistion, and general unfamiliarity that exists for many folks on the subject and the issues involved. However, as has been mentioned, there is no point in beating a "dead horse", and, I think if you aren't careful, you just may find yourself in the posistion of the boy who called wolf ....

And, since you seem to be(whether intentionally or not) using the tactics of a troll where this issue is concerned, I know it certianly does not sit well with me. I am not responding to your posts on this issue because I enjoy it, and I know many here are already quite tired of this ....

What is especially bad is that you have rudely and easily dismissed comments from a couple of local professional broadcast engineers who participate here who obviously know a little bit more about their work and the issues involved for their stations than you(or I) do .... Since most of us I think(I certianly do anyway) appreciate hearing from those folks, I will ask nicely if, from now on you will at least please attempt to consider the facts, statements, and opinions posted by others before dismissing them so easily.

I've found that often, doing a little research concerning the facts involved with any particular issue can be quite benefical ... We all know many people don't like the school closings/bugs/weather bugs going across the screen when they are watching their favorite program, and especially when a predicted snowstorm turns out to be a sunny day ... you haven't told us anything new, there ... This is more similiar to pulling off to side of road and stopping when you are in the way of a emergency vehicle on a run, however, people don't like to be stuck in a traffic jam either, that doesn't mean traffic jams are going to go away just because you want them to go away ...

BTW, IF you like, you can also contact the stations directly, and let them know you don't like the school closings ....

Nitewatchman

03-02-05, 06:30 PM

FYI, I'm not getting PSIP OTA channel remapping from WCPO-DT currently. AT 6:30pm, They are showing up here on RF major channel # only - 10-1+10-2.

microbob

03-02-05, 07:02 PM

Their PSIP maps have been down since this afternoon,at least that when I noticed it.

Nitewatchman

03-02-05, 08:19 PM

This is interesting ... I had DTC-100 (Guides/PSIP remapping off) tuned to WXIX-DT(29-3) around 7:55pm, and it was decoding fine ... Well, tuned to 10-1 to check for "jaggies" during HD "Lost"(Jaggies still there) at just after 8pm then tuned back to WXIX-DT for UC HD game and it won't decode it(it's showing the signal is just fine though) .tried switching to other channels, doing a soft reboot/etc... LOL ... Never seen THAT happen before ... I would try a rescan with PSIP turned on or a hard reboot to see if it will decode WXIX-DT in that case, but the set is being used currently....

Zenith HDV420(remap on, can't turn it off) on the other hand is decoding them just fine, even after switching channels then tuning back to either 29RF or 19.1 Virtual channel ..

I hope noone else is having problems with whatever is causing this ..

microbob

03-02-05, 08:27 PM

I noticed a few audio dropouts on the UC broadcast tonight, but I'm having no problems with my receiver decoding 19-1 tonight. Flipping between them and UK game on 64-1. I wish UK was in HD.

Nitewatchman

03-02-05, 08:31 PM

I Noticed they went to a commercial break at 8:27pm -- And on a whim, I tried punching in 29 again on DTC-100 during the commercial, and it's now getting a lock on 29-3(remember I have the PSIP stuff turned off) and it is now decoding it just fine .. Don't guess I'll be doing much channel surfing on the HT tonight<g>

Update: Well I had to take a chance ... Tuned to 10-1 and then back to 29 during the game at about 20:32 on the DTC, and this time it worked just fine, so I assume they caught whatever was wrong sometime between 8:10 and 8:30 ... Either that or my DTC-100 decided to act strangely(again first time I've ever seen it do that) for only WXIX-DT for a few mintues ...

dusterscott

03-02-05, 09:06 PM

I'm getting intermittent skipping audio on 19-1 (WXIX-DT) tonight and jittery picture on 22-1 (WKEF-DT).

jim tressler

03-02-05, 09:16 PM

no problems here on wxix.. looks great again tonight!!

the hughes htl-hd shows 9-1 and 9-2 - 9-1 is correct, but 9-2 just tunes to 9-1 - also 10-1 and 10-2 show up and their guides are not there but 10-1 is 9-1 and 10-2 is the weather like it should be.. and of course jaggies abound!

jim

upgrade-itis

03-02-05, 09:28 PM

I have blank screen on 9.1 during Lost and its' still dark. Strong normal signal on frequency 10 still with nothing. I missed first 15 minutes on the HD TIVO and had to watch SD. I hope this is not just me.

UC game looks very good.

jim tressler

03-02-05, 09:33 PM

never mind.. found the answer over in the american idol thread :)

upgrade-itis

03-02-05, 09:50 PM

getting abc HD on 10.1 and not 9.1 (9:50pm) . First time this has happened.

Tivo season passes set up on 9.1. Should I change? Is there something new regarding remapping I haven't read?

CincySaint

03-02-05, 10:14 PM

On Time Warner Cable -- WXIX HD was dark - no sound/no picture for the 1st part of the game. I don't know when it came back because I forgot to keep checking. 2nd half was fine.

Nitewatchman

03-02-05, 10:27 PM

If stations do not send PSIP remapping info, some receivers which rely on D* EPG for OTA tuning will continue to work fine, and it will still show up as 9-1, even though the station isn't actually sending remapping info.

Some receivers which use D* EPG, but mainly rely on OTA PSIP may not show WCPO-DT on 9-x currently(since they aren't sending PSIP ch remapping data, currently as they normally do), but you might still be able to get tune to it by going to the actual channel they transmit on .. 10, or 10-1, 10-2/etc ....

Some receivers, if they rely solely on PSIP tables sent by the station might not be able to tune them in at all if they aren't sending proper PSIP info, although in some cases you might get it to work via a channel rescan(but on 10-x presently). Most OTA receivers(and some sat+OTA receivers) should let you tune to the actual RF channel(10, or 10-1/10-2 in this case) and still see them .... they should, but that doesn't mean they will ...

PSIP info is really "auxillary" info, that was tacked on to ATSC standard at a later time, mainly I think because stations wanted to be able to preserve their existing (analog) channel branding after the transistion, and so they could send EPG guide info via PSIP/etc .... -- PSIP [b]should[/] not, strictly speaking, be needed to be able to decode the datastreams, as info from MPEGII concerning the program streams is everything a recevier should need, although unfortunelty there are some receivers out there which aren't designed to "fall back" and use MPEGII info, so if proper PSIP info isn't being sent by the station then some receivers won't be able to decode those stations ... And also of course, if the EPG info from the satellite is using the remapped channel numbers, in some cases(for Sat+OTA receivers which use the station's PSIP info to "coordinate" with the EPG), if the station isn't sending channel remapping info that agrees with the EPG channel numbers, they're can be problems as well ... In this case, in most cases you should currrently be able to tune to 10-1 and decode WCPO-DT, although the guide info may show 9-1 and a blank screen(some may even show an indication that a signal is there) ...

Stations are required to comply with PSIP standard A65B as of 2/1/05(which among other things requires stations to send remapping info to remap their major channel number to their analog Channel #), so I expect WCPO-DT has probably had a "glitch" that hopefully should soon be straightened out ...

Supposedly, PSIP is supposed to make the DTV transistion "less confusing" for viewers(since the stations show up via PSIP remapping channel with the same major channel number as the analog station, instead of the actual channel the digital station is broadcasting on .... It also allows broadcasters to keep their existing channel branding after the transistion, no matter which actual channel their DTV station is sending it's signal on ...

Doc has a nice STB poll/PSIP problems thread, which you might also want to check out for some good info on PSIP related issues and which boxes are especially prone to having problems, here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=514821

----------------------------

Dusterscott,

You might want to check out recent posts in Dayton thread concerning some models of receivers currently dropping frames(the "jittery" or "stuttering" video you are experiencing) with WKEF-DT during ABC HD, beginning last night ...

Cincysaint,

Interesting ... Given I experienced the same thing as you did, but OTA with my DTC-100 with it's PSIP stuff turned off(in which case I believe it should have been relying solely on MPEGII PID's/PMT/PAT for the necessary info it needs to decode the program streams) -- And was seeing them just fine for first part of game via Zenith receiver(can't turn off PSIP stuff), as were others :

I have to wonder if there was something wrong during the first part of game with some of the MPEGII info that caused DTC-100 and your TW Decoder not to be able to decode them(until they fixed the problem), while via the PSIP info, other receivers were able to "ignore" whatever was wrong with the MPEGII info for the stream? Seems strange though, as some receivers which rely on PSIP seem to have problems if certian values in MPEGII PAT(program assocation table) and PSIP VCT(virtual channel table) don't agree ...

What is strange is that, except for something similiar which I believe happened with WKEF-DT Dayton over the weekend, I don't think I can recall ever seeing anything like this happen before ...

mbarcus

03-02-05, 10:29 PM

I had the same problem on TWC 8300HD DVR. When the game first started, picture was very jittery, then after about 10 minutes no pic at all.

Now on ABC HD, I lost audio about 10 minutes ago on Wife Swap.....still out.

Nitewatchman

03-02-05, 10:40 PM

Audio isn't decoding here from WCPO-DT OTA either, presentl(10:40pm). I Also tried to see if it switched to a 2nd stream, but nothing happened. (stations can send two audio streams, the "audio" button on zenith box here lets you switch between those two) ...

When it rains, it pours, I suppose ....

Still looking forward to analog shut off time here <g> .....

mbarcus

03-02-05, 11:07 PM

WTF??????? American Idol was supposed to be on from 11-11:30. Just tuned in to catch the two males get kicked off and then the show ended at 11:05!! Where did the first 25 minutes go? Time shift screw up?

cokebear

03-02-05, 11:34 PM

microbob I noticed a few audio dropouts on the UC broadcast tonight, but I'm having no problems with my receiver decoding 19-1 tonight. Flipping between them and UK game on 64-1. I wish UK was in HD

Have to admit I didn't even try to catch the UC game. I did notice 2 audio dropouts on the UK game on WSTR-DT but audio was present on the analog station. Both times it happened were in the 2nd half.

GO Wildcats!!! SEC regular season champs!!!

mchuckp

03-03-05, 08:21 AM

Originally posted by mbarcus
WTF??????? American Idol was supposed to be on from 11-11:30. Just tuned in to catch the two males get kicked off and then the show ended at 11:05!! Where did the first 25 minutes go? Time shift screw up?

Not sure why, but the guide was wrong. WXIX was advertising that AI would be on at 10:30 but TWC's guide said 11:00. I believed the TV ads over the guide. It was on from 10:35-11:05.

tbenson81

03-03-05, 04:25 PM

Here you go again - you have a propensity of embellishing the truth and taking things out of context.

I never said that each individual school or district have a "call center"

I said the news channel would have an automated system - similar to say a movie theatre with show times. The structure would be exactly the same as it is now. You call the news stations automated number and you receive the listings. That way no programming is interuppted and people like you can check on all your schools over the phone and thank them for the terrific public service they are providing you.

PS - If you want to talk about what is getting annoying is your arrogant tone that you try and take with everyone here. You do not know as much as you think you do especially on the marketing side of things.

Also - your analogy of the traffic jam does not make any sense. You cannot prevent traffic jams. However, there are more effective means of relaying school information and weather to people without causing them any inconvenience. There is a way to make everyone happy but you still seem to be oblivious to it.

DrDon

03-03-05, 04:42 PM

Not to hijack the conversation, but take it from another who's been on the other side of School Closings. It doesn't matter what system we all dream up, the general public is going to blow a nut if THEIR kid's school closing isn't scrolled on THE channel they're watching at THE exact time they're watching it. We tried to move our listeners to a phone-based system. "I don't have time to stop and make a call" was the complaint we heard. So, we went back to reading long lists of schools every 30 mintues. Still, it wasn't often enough for them. "I've been listening for ten minutes and you haven't said a word about it." I have a zillion of 'em.

The really annoying part was the people who'd check two or three sources and call because they had one we didn't or we had one they didn't. They demanded an answer RIGHT THEN. <sigh>. Then you have the schools who think that, by calling one station (usually WLW), we'd all get it from them. As a broadcaster, there's no way to win.

Like William says.. this one ain't goin' away. My only hope is that they can get it to the point at least the HD doesn't drop when they do it. And I'd rather them squeeze it (like CBS does for scores) than cut off the bottom of the picture. In time, I suppose.

tbenson81

03-03-05, 05:56 PM

The main and final point is that there has to be a better way to inform the public than the current one that is in play. We need to find the balance where most people will be happy and I do not believe that we are there yet.

Nitewatchman

03-03-05, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by tbenson81
Here you go again - you have a propensity of embellishing the truth and taking things out of context.

I never said that each individual school or district have a "call center"

I said the news channel would have an automated system - similar to say a movie theatre with show times. The structure would be exactly the same as it is now. You call the news stations automated number and you receive the listings. That way no programming is interuppted and people like you can check on all your schools over the phone and thank them for the terrific public service they are providing you.

Please read more carefully. I understand what you meant. Broadcasters are broadcasters, putting school closings on the air is a part of the "public service" broadcasters provide, and this is generally well known by all parties involved, including the public. Broadcasters using call centers to fullfill their public interest obligations is not well known, I didn't know any have even tried it.

This is not for "people like me", I personally have no interest, or need whatsoever to know about school closings ....

Originally posted by tbenson81
to talk about what is getting annoying is your arrogant tone that you try and take with everyone here. You do not know as much as you think you do especially on the marketing side of things.

I have never tried to take an "arrogant" tone with anyone here. Now #1). I have(and will continue to do so) made every effort to make sure my comments are clear, and understood. Also, It is often difficult to keep from writing "a book" when we are discussing some issues, so if any of my posts seem "terse" it is because making things sound "nicer" sometimes even takes MORE words ... IN any event, If that is how my posts are perceived, than I apologize to whomever feels this way ...

I also don't think I'm being the "arrogant" one here. For instance, I recognize that there are OTHERS who benefit from the school closings graphics/weather bugs/etc -- even though I don't need the school closing information, nor is it often that the weather bugs on the screen are the first notification I have of severe weather. And, I can usually find out everything I need to know concerning the weather within a few seconds~a few mintues by tuning to WCPO-DT's weather subchannel which I find much more covienient than using a radio or the internet ....

Anyway, this is about informing the public and providing a public service, not marketing.

Originally posted by tbenson81
However, there are more effective means of relaying school information and weather to people without causing them any inconvenience.

I do not think you have provided even one example which is more effective, and you still seem to continue to completely disregard the facts presented to you .....

Originally posted by tbenson81
There is a way to make everyone happy but you still seem to be oblivious to it.

No, I don't think there is a way to make everyone happy. The *best* way I could think to do it(with DTV) was already discussed by Doc and William -- With Datacasting, where one could "select" on their reciever whether or not to display the information. The problem with that however, is none of the receivers(so far, and in the forseeable future) have this capability built in .... The other way(also discussed earlier) would be to provide a SD subchannel with the school closing/weather alert information/etc. However, that would of course reduce the amount of bandwidth available for use for other services ....

HDTVChallenged

03-03-05, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by DrDon
Not to hijack the conversation, but take it from another who's been on the other side of School Closings.

LOL ... Now imagine that you are the person actually sitting in the "hot seat" trying to decide whether or not to issue a wx warning or watch.

tbenson81

03-03-05, 07:15 PM

Jeff, lets just agree to diagree for now. I will find a feasible solution for this and post it for your critiquing. However, none of this would be an issue if whoever is in this "hot seat" did a little better job of deciding what warrants a break in coverage and what does not.

jkeane

03-03-05, 07:50 PM

Jeff,

You and DrDon have been more help to the people on this forum than everyone else combined. I appreciate your effort and thank both of you. Now, it's time to leave this silly topic (wx warnings) behind before someone gets hurt.

tbenson81

03-03-05, 08:04 PM

????

TL2000

03-03-05, 09:43 PM

Sorry if this question has been answered already, but I am new to the forum. Is WLWT not broadcasting in HD OTA? I live in East Walnut Hills and have just put up my OTA antenna. I can get everything except WLWT and the PBS (are they located in the same tower? antennaweb shows that they are both at 272 from my house and are the same distance.) Please let me know if I am doing something really stupid or if this is a problem everyone is having.

Thanks

Brian

1450kHz

03-03-05, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by tbenson81
Jeff, lets just agree to diagree for now. I will find a feasible solution for this and post it for your critiquing. However, none of this would be an issue if whoever is in this "hot seat" did a little better job of deciding what warrants a break in coverage and what does not.

The solution I suggest would be to get satellite and "move" to the proper DMA to quality for HD nets. ;)

dusterscott

03-03-05, 10:57 PM

I get those channels from Middletown ok. What kind of receiver and antenna do you have?

Nitewatchman

03-04-05, 01:38 AM

Originally posted by TL2000
I can get everything except WLWT and the PBS (are they located in the same tower? antennaweb shows that they are both at 272 from my house and are the same distance.)
Brian

WLWT And WCET(CET) PBS are on the same tower in Clifton, you aren't very far from it, only a couple of miles or so .... The "center" of walnut hills is only about 4900 Feet from WCPO tower in the same direction ...

Everything in cincinnati except WCVN-DT(KET/PBS HD in NKY about 5~6 miles to your SSW), And WSTR(WB HD ~5 miles or so to your NW, roughly) should be within a few degrees or so of the same heading from your location .. WKRC would be a little to the WSW(its a few blocks South of WCPO tower) and as close to you as WCPO(analogs WBQC 38+WOTH 25 also broadcast from WCPO tower), the rest would be pretty much right in a line to your west ...

You should be getting very strong signals from all the Cincinnati stations ...

BTW, WPTO's digital station(also PBS - "ThinkTV") is NOT in oxford as antennaweb shows(at least the last time I looked at antennaweb), it currently broadcasts off WXIX(Fox cincinnati) tower, only the analog is in oxford ...

Are you using a preamp, or "amplified" antenna? If so, you especially may be getting "too much" signal .... Multipath may be an issue you might be dealing with as well ...

DrDon

03-04-05, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by 1450kHz
The solution I suggest would be to get satellite and "move" to the proper DMA to quality for HD nets. ;) Which will get you break-ins and interruptions for things that are of even less interest to you, since you'd be watching the NYC stations. :D

TL2000

03-04-05, 11:39 AM

Are you using a preamp, or "amplified" antenna? If so, you especially may be getting "too much" signal .... Multipath may be an issue you might be dealing with as well ...

I am using this antenna
Channel Master 3021 4-Bay Bowtie UHF Antenna (CM3021)
I'm going to assume that it is not amplified, but I could be wrong. I agree that I should be getting a strong signal. Antennaweb show me as being 4 miles away, but I am definitely not getting either of those stations. Maybe I need to move my antenna higher on my house. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Brian

Nitewatchman

03-04-05, 12:20 PM

TL2000,

That seems a bit odd ... You're right -- CM3021 isn't amplfied --- What do the analog stations look like? Is there a lot of ghosting or snow? Especially WCET 48 analog, but you might especially want to check 19,25,38,48 as well as that might tell us something.

If the analogs are snowy, you might want to doublecheck your connections and make sure the coax run isn't pinched somewhere. Also, even though I wouldn't think it should be an issue in this case, if you are diplexing sat/OTA you might want to try a direct coax run to the antenna(even if it's just a temporary thing for testing) to make sure something "strange" isn't going on.

If the analogs have a lot of ghosts(especially analog 48 which broadcasts off same tower), that's multipath, in which case finding a "sweet spot" for the antenna might be worth the effort. A little rotating might help as well, even though normally it's best to aim antenna right at the towers, in some cases when you are that close(especially if there is something -- like say WCPO tower right in the direct signal path) it might work better aimed slightly "off target" ...

Only other thing I can think of is that it still could be somewhat possible that the signals at your location are so strong it's overloading front-end of your receiver+creating extra "noise" on Channel 34+35 .. That's not very likely, but who knows. I do know that one of my receivers here(zenith HDV420) has a small "in-line amp" in order to compensate it's "internal" split of the signal between it's Tuner and it's RF out jack(most VCR's do the same thing), and, it seems to overload fairly easily.

If it is the case that "too strong signals" are overloading your receiver, adding some additional attenuation should solve the problem. Radio shack has a adjustable attenuator(up to -20db) for about 9 bucks - Here's the info on it: http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=15-678

Also -- One other question -- Are you getting any sort of indication of signal from them at all, if you have a receiver that has a "signal meter" on it? Hopefully, you can tune to the actual channels 34(for WCET-DT) and 35(for WLWT-DT) and check your receiver's signal meter, as the receiver can't get the info from the station to "remap" to the remapped channels until it can get a lock on the signal.

------------------------------------------------

All,

FYI, Noticed WCPO-DT still isn't remapping as of 12:20pm, so I just sent a note to Ruschman and WCPO's DOE concerning the lack of PSIP channel remapping info from WCPO-DT Wed afternoon. Figured I might as well bring it up, so I also asked if they had made any progress in addressing the "jaggies" issue ...

TL2000

03-04-05, 12:40 PM

What do the analog stations look like? Is there a lot of ghosting or snow? Especially WCET 48 analog, but you might especially want to check 19,25,38,48 as well as that might tell us something.

I'm not at home right now, but I'll check them when I am. I don't think they look that good though. I seem to remember them being somewhat fuzzy.

you might want to doublecheck your connections and make sure the coax run isn't pinched somewhere.

Since I just put my antenna up, I have my testing piece of cable still attached. It is a 60-70' run of quad shielded RG-6. I don't thnk the cable is the problem.

I'm pretty sure that I am getting 48 analog, but once again I'll have to check at home. I will say that when using my friends sony hd rec. to try and manually add the channel, it pauses when it tries to find the digital signal, but then says not found.

Also -- One other question -- Are you getting any sort of indication of signal from them at all, if you have a receiver that has a "signal meter" on it

It tells me that there is no signal when I tune to them. It does not seem like I am getting any sort of indication of a signal.

n some cases when you are that close(especially if there is something -- like say WCPO tower right in the direct signal path) it might work better aimed slightly "off target" ...

You are right. Here are the stats on my channels from antennaweb.

WXIX-DT 19.1 FOX NEWPORT KY 271° 4.0 29
* yellow - uhf WKRC-DT 12.1 CBS CINCINNATI OH 252° 1.7 31
* yellow - uhf WLWT-DT 5.1 NBC CINCINNATI OH 272° 2.6 35
* yellow - uhf WCET-DT 48.1 PBS CINCINNATI OH 272° 2.6 34
* yellow - vhf WCPO-DT 9.1 ABC CINCINNATI OH 272° 1.4 10
* yellow - uhf WCVN-DT 54.1 PBS COVINGTON KY 200° 6.8 24
* green - uhf WSTR-DT 64.1 WB CINCINNATI OH 337° 5.8 33

The WCPO tower is directly in the way and is very close. Could that just be overpowering the WLWT signal? If I need to re-aim, should I go more on the > 272 side or <272 side?

Thanks for all of the help.

Brian

jim tressler

03-04-05, 01:18 PM

i think you are a good candidate for the winegard sensar :) antenna

dusterscott

03-04-05, 01:47 PM

Want to buy mine? lol

TL2000

03-04-05, 02:08 PM

I'm assuming you were joking about the winegard sensar???

Just for my own piece of mind, could I put my channelmaster antenna up in my attic? It would be about 10' higher than it currently is, but would obviously be inside. Is this a terrible thing to do since I am so close to the towers? It would simplfy a big part of my installation because I would not have to mess with getting the feed from my antenna back into my attic. My house is extremely high and getting a ladder up near the top is a pain in the A%#.

Thanks

Brian

Nitewatchman

03-04-05, 02:10 PM

Brian,

Certianly you can put the CM3021 in your attic, outdoors is usually better but at your distance you shouldn't have a problem getting enough signal from indoors. Multipath conditions will probably be worse indoors too, however. It might even be worth a shot to put it in the room with the TV to see if you move antenna/adust antenna if you can find a "sweet spot" where reception of WLWT/WCET digitals will occur ...

Putting antenna indoors does attenuate signals quite a bit, which may actually HELP you in your situation ... The $9 attenuator at RS would probably be the best thing to try with your outdoor antenna if that's the issue, however ... Although moving the antenna to a different spot might help greatly as well ... You'll just have to try different things to see what causes improvement(if any) to get a better idea of what might be going on ...

Originally posted by TL2000
I'm not at home right now, but I'll check them when I am. I don't think they look that good though. I seem to remember them being somewhat fuzzy.

Hmm .. I could see where their could be ghosts, but they shouldn't be "fuzzy" in the sense of being "snowy" unless perhaps you have nearby severe signal blockage issues(such as terrain or a nearby large building, of if you have your antenna "staring" right into a thick, brick wall/etc) between your antenna+ the towers...

"fuzzy" or "snowy" would seem to indicate a weak signal, and that should just not be the case at your location, especially given the use of a fairly high gain directional antenna such as CM3021. We have one member using one of those North of Dayton in his Attic and is receiving WLWT/WCET and the other Cincinnati DTV stations just fine.

If a receiver was being overloaded to the point of it becoming desensitized, I suppose that could account for making a strong signal seem like a weak one, although I don't know If I've ever heard that happening with a TV receiver w/o a amp being used, even as close as you are to WCPO ... The attenuator would tell you for sure, though, if the signal gets BETTER when you add more attenuation ...

Originally posted by TL2000

Since I just put my antenna up, I have my testing piece of cable still attached. It is a 60-70' run of quad shielded RG-6. I don't thnk the cable is the problem.

It's not the cable so much I'm thinking of as the connections, or the possibility of Balun(matching transfomer that does the 300ohm~75ohm conversion from antenna to coax) being bad .. On the connections, If just one little "strand" from outer conductor makes contact with the center conductor, it can cause a "short" ...

Originally posted by TL2000
The WCPO tower is directly in the way and is very close. Could that just be overpowering the WLWT signal? If I need to re-aim, should I go more on the > 272 side or <272 side?

Could be, I suppose it is possible in the sense that a intermodulation product(which can "effect" harmonics of certian frequency/channel relationships) from the stations transmitting on WCPO tower may be causing extra "noise" on 34+35, or if your receiver is just being overloaded to the point of desense (It's fairly easy to desensitize a FM receiver, but I don't think I've heard of it happening with a TV receiver ... Then again, I haven't talked to many folks who are as close to tower as you are)

Hard to say what you should do "exactly" with the reaiming .. Best way would be to watch the screen+check what it's doing to different stations while you are changing the antenna aiming ... Might sound odd, but if you can take a small TV with you and check the effect on the analog station so you can see it when you are turning antenna it should be of some help ...

Other than the attenuator, checking connections, trying different aiming or a different spot for antenna, the only other thing I might suggest is trying the antenna Inside and see what you get ...

Originally posted by TL2000

It tells me that there is no signal when I tune to them. It does not seem like I am getting any sort of indication of a signal.

That seems really strange ... Since you get everything else, and WLWT tower is pretty much a stone's throw away from WXIX to the west, and WCPO/WKRC to the east - and not only that, WLWT-DT/WCET-DT are very "high powered", with their transmitting antenna as higher than anything except WSTR(WB) - Which is only a few feet higher ... AND since you aren't getting EITHER WLWT-DT 35/WCET-DT 34 -- Unless it is just severe multipath(causes ghosts on analogs), I'm leaning towards thinking "something else" is effecting channel 34/35 at your location in an "interference"/Intermodulation distortion product sort of "manner" ...

You might want to contact WLWT/WCET and ask if they have any ideas concerning what you may be experiencing. They also, may be interested in fnding out about it ... I wonder if anyone else relatively near you is having problems receiving them?

TL2000

03-04-05, 02:20 PM

Jeff,

I'm not sure if there is anyone else near me with this problem. I just left a voicemail for Paul K. at WLWT. Hopefully he will call me back and have some ideas. Other than that, I will try putting it in my attic. Hopefully that will help.

Thanks

Brian

Nitewatchman

03-04-05, 02:46 PM

As I mentioned earlier, I sent WCPO's DOE a note a bit earlier concerning their lack of PSIP channel remapping the past couple of days.

Within about 30 minutes after I sent the message, I received his response , saying he had to reset the PSIP inserter.

Next time I checked it, at 12:55pm, WCPO-DT is remapping to 9-1, 9-2 just fine again.

jim tressler

03-04-05, 03:08 PM

actually,I use the sensar out in hamilton tonwship and have no problem whatsoever with it - its small, has limited range and is unamplified so it may work for your situation.. just a thought as it works well for me and two other people.. one in lebanon and one other in hamilton township.

jim

JunkyardDogg

03-04-05, 07:19 PM

Scott:
Brian's ChannelMaster antenna is far superior to any Winegard antenna. When you buy an antenna, you should by a quality one, and ChannelMaster fits that.

I would suggest spinning the antenna around and make sure it is facing the right way. I was testing the 8-bay ChannelMaster(4228) and it is very directional and needed to be pointed. Do guys think I could mount my rotor and a CM 4228 on a left over sat dish mount, this way I could put it up high and hide it behind my roof line?

Nitewatchman

03-04-05, 08:50 PM

Do guys think I could mount my rotor and a CM 4228 on a left over sat dish mount, this way I could put it up high and hide it behind my roof line?

I don't see why not if you can find a way to mount the rotor to the sat dish mount, and it's a "steady" solid mount. I'd get it above the roofline if you can however, especially if the direction of the towers will be blocked by the house.

Brian's ChannelMaster antenna is far superior to any Winegard antenna. When you buy an antenna, you should by a quality one, and ChannelMaster fits that.

I would suggest spinning the antenna around and make sure it is facing the right way. I was testing the 8-bay ChannelMaster(4228) and it is very directional and needed to be pointed.

Winegard makes many high quality antennas. Both the Winegard Sensar and the CM3010 "stealthtenna" however are "coat hanger" antenna designs, and neither have the gain or directivity on UHF as a CM3021 does, or Winegard's 4 bay Bowtie. For VHF, I use a Winegard CS-5200 antenna(200" boom) and I can assure you it it quite well made, with excellent gain+directivity ....

The CM4228 has better directivity, and better gain than the CM3021(CM4221 is same antenna) 4 bay bowtie which, although it has a good amount of directivity, it can also often be used successfully when you have stations you are trying to receive which are fairly spread out, especially if those stations are at or less than 60 degrees apart or so, although some have had good results with a wider range of headings. CM4228 is a better choice if you are dealing with weaker signals, and the stations aren't on much different "range of headings" than within 10~20 degree heading or so, or if you are using a rotor.

Even though they CAN work well enough on Hi-VHF ch 7-13, I don't think I would recommend a UHF only antenna for locations much more than 15 miles or so which are trying to receive VHF stations. It might work in some situations for Hi-VHF at even more distant receiving locations, although I wouldn't necessarily allways count on it ....

You make a good point about the antenna aiming. However, As close as Brian is to some of the Cincinnati towers, things can get a little "strange" with antenna aiming ... I also suspect since he can probably see some of the towers, he probably has a good idea of where to aim the antenna(West), especially with the info he is using from antennaweb .....

TL2000

03-05-05, 11:26 AM

An update to my saga. I pointed the antenna at the sun just before it set, so I'm pretty sure I'm pointing in the correct direction...:) Here are the updates of my test today.
When I try to manually add 34 and 35 it pauses like it is thinking on the digital channel, but then says not found.
I don't get them when I do an auto add.

Using Sony Sat-HD200 as my tuner

5 - ghosting
9 - not great picture, no ghosting
9.1 good
9.2 good
12 good
12.1 good
14.2-6 good
16 - bad picture (fuzzy)
19 - bad picture (ghosting)
19.1 good
25 - fuzzy
38 - ghosting
43 - ghosting, bad picture
45 - bad picture
48 - ghosting
54 - ghosting
54.1-6 - good
64 - ghosting, fuzzy

Using my Sony TV tuner (KDF-50WE655)

5 - ghosting
9 - ghosting
9.1 - good
9.2 - good
12 - good
19 - ghosting
48 - ghosting
54.1-6 - good

I have yet to try and put the antenna in my attic. Would this be a useful next step or is there another solution I should try?

Thanks

Brian

Nitewatchman

03-05-05, 02:32 PM

Brian,

While I still can't say why you're not getting 34+35, it does look like you are having a multipath(ghosts on analogs) problem. Multipath will effect the digital statiions as well, but there just isn't really a way to diagnose it if that's the problem(without the use of a $$$$ spectrum analyzer)..... Moving antenna indoors probably won't help that, it will probably even make the multpath worse, but you never know if it will help until you try it ...

Before trying it indoors, I would probably try reaiming the antenna WHILE you are looking at a TV(or have a helper help you, those 2 way "family radio service" radios are a good tool for this) to see if the situation improves .. You could also take a small TV outside with you and try to minimize ghosts on 48 with antenna aiming ....

What also would probably be better than moving it inside would be you might want to move it around outside and see if there is a "sweet spot" where things improve ... Even if it ends up in a "spot" where you can't leave it permanantely, if you can acheive reception of WLWT-DT/WCET-DT with the antenna "somewhere", at least that might tell you something ...

For instance, If it IS the case WCPO tower is right in the signal path to WLWT/WCET you could be getting nasty multipath echoes from WLWT/WCET-DT coming Off of WCPO tower --- In which case moving the antenna a few feet(or inches) to right or left or up or down might make a big difference ... You are of course working blind however if your adjusting the antenna a little bit, and then having to go inside to check to see if your adjusting did any good ...

libertytwp

03-06-05, 06:31 PM

I have a question for those of you more knowlegeable about signal attneuation than I am. I have 2 antenna's in the attic One for Cincy and one for Dayton. I use them only for DTV reception. I'm running separate RG6 quad shielded coax from each to the wall jack where I use a 2 way splitter to combine them and then go to my HDTV tuner.. Would I be better or worse off if I combine the 2 signals in the attic and run them both down on one line. The reason I ask Is I want to add a FM antenna and use the 2nd coax but would hate to loose dtv signal strength. Right now Everything in Dayton and Cincy comes in fine except WKOI but before I got a bigger antenna some of the signals were sproatic.

Nitewatchman

03-06-05, 07:45 PM

Originally posted by libertytwp
Would I be better or worse off if I combine the 2 signals in the attic and run them both down on one line.

Probably won't make any difference, but its hard to say. It shouldn't, but either way it is not a good idea to combine seperate antennas aimed in different directions onto the same feedline with a 2 way splitter used backwards. The antennas are out of phase no matter how long each coax run from the antenna to the splitter/combiner is ....

That's great if combining your Cincy/Dayton antennas together is working for you, and you are getting consistantly solid reception from everything in Dayton and Cincinnati except WKOI-DT. I would say you are very, very lucky given the way you are combining the antennas together.

It is not a good idea to combine seperate antennas aimed in different directions with a 2 way splitter used backwards, as this creates a situation where the antennas are out of phase. For instance, the antenna aimed towards Dayton is also picking up signals from Cincinnati off the back side, and vice versa. Thus portions of the signal coming in off the backside of Dayton or Cincy antenna are probably quite poor quality(probably laden with multipath for example), and are still of course, "mixed in" with the good signal coming off the antenna that is actually aimed in the correct direction.

The way to do it is run a seperate feedline from each antenna to near the receiver, and use a A/B switch to switch between the two antennas. Its also possible to use filters to block certian channels from coming from one antenna or the other, however, given the Dayton/Cincinnati stations are spread out across the dial it would likely be difficult+expensive to implement(or would require MANY different antennas used with the CM "jointennas") and probably is an application best suited for MATV systems ... And, some of the stations will be changing the channel they broadcast on after analog shut off, so you would have to change it all around again ...

Now, you can properly combine seperate VHF(or VHF/FM)+UHF antennas onto a single feedline -- but not with a spitter used backwards ... You need a VHF/UHF Joiner such as CM#0549. Winegard also makes a combiner/seperator (CA-8800) which can combine or seperate VHF/UHF TV bands on one input/output and FM broadcast band on the other input/output. Both the CM#0549 and CA-8800 are low insertion loss, about .5db~1db if I recall correctly. A 2 way splitter loses approx 3.5db.

Most TV VHF/UHF combo antennas, or broadband VHF/FM antennas also work fairly well on FM, but of course a UHF only TV antenna wouldn't work so well on FM ....

It is hard to say how much "extra" attenuation it would take to effect your DTV reception as it's going to be difficult to tell what issue is causing what "problem" that may occur if you are improperly combining seperate antennas onto the same feedline. What you might interpet as too much signal loss, may actually be caused by the antennas being out of phase ..

There is ONE application for combining antennas toghether -- and that's if you are creating a stacked array of antennas -- In which case you must use Identical antenna models, with both(or more) antennas aimed in the same direction and placed a certian distance apart. and identical lengths of Coax between the antenna and the combiner ... This creates a situation where the antennas are actually in-phase with each other, and this can be useful to improve directivity, as well as gain -- A stacked array is generally most effective if it is "designed" for use on a very narrow range of frequencies, such as 1 TV channel or less ....

There is also an application for having an "out-of phase" antenna setup such as you are using currently as it is possible with the proper equipment to "null out" interference from local stations, usually in order to receive a different station operating on the same channel from another market. However, this is difficult to implement, is usually done in a channel-specfic fashion and requires special signal measuring equipment(and the knowledge of how to use it) to implement ... If one is lucky, they can do a little "phasing out" of interference on a certian channel with just two antennas combined together onto the same feedline, however the likelyhood that other channels you want to receive aren't delitierously effected in some way is very, very low ...

Now -- Back in the 70's, they used to make a set of 2 antennas called a "Cincinnati-Dayton Special" which were specifically designed for this area to be combined together onto the same feedline -You aimed one at Dayton+one at Cincinnati and it worked ... But, it worked because the antennas themselves were each specifically "cut" to work on the Channels the Dayton/Cincinnati analog stations were operating on at the time ... If you have one of these still, it likely still works great on dayton 2,7,16,22 and Cincinnati 5,9,12,19,48, but in most cases it probably won't work so great for the new stations which have come on the air on different channels than those since the late 70's ....

BTW, WKOI-DT is currently low power with a directional antenna pattern which only favors it's community of license, Richmond, Indiana some 30 miles NNW of their tower between Trenton+Oxford, so you might not expect to be able to get that one until they improve their transmitting facilities.

Search the antenna thread in local info area at avsforum or the hardware area for more info on properly combining antennas ....

Hope this helps,

tbenson81

03-09-05, 11:43 AM

http://www.ksn.com/weather/fromdave/0405.html

Here is a nice little article for your to review. It pretty much outlines both sides of the issue pretty fairly. However, it seems like some areas of the country have a little better system in play than we do here in Cincinnati. Plus, they are in the heart of tornado country and as most know the old saying "nothing ever bad happens in Cincinnati"

In response to yours and everyone else's blurbs on school closings, I acutally emailed the author of this article and he pretty much laughed at the fact the programming would be interupted for school closings. He said that is absolutely ridiculous and viewers would burn him in effigy.

You like to try and tell me that I dont base anything on fact. Well here is an indiviudal who has been in the business for 19 years and pretty much says the current practice of programming interruptions in Cincinnati is a joke.

Although your side of the issue is valid - Cincinnati is the extreme and this so called "public service" is UNCALLED for 90% of the time.

Maybe you as well as many other people in Cincinnati are just a little too sheltered.

Regards,
Tony

Nitewatchman

03-09-05, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by tbenson81
http://www.ksn.com/weather/fromdave/0405.html
In response to yours and everyone else's blurbs on school closings, I acutally emailed the author of this article and he pretty much laughed at the fact the programming would be interupted for school closings.

Since when do Cincinnati TV stations interrupt programming to announce school closings? I don't think I have ever seen that. Inserting a crawl/graphic into the programming to announce school closings is different and I wouldn't be at all surprised if KSN does the same thing on occasion.

http://www.ksn.com/news/closingsold.html

I've seen KSNW 3, Witchita, KS (a satellite station of KSN) a number of times via Sporadic E propagation HERE(once a couple summers ago when that area of Kansas was experiencing a severe weather outbreak) and they certianly do run crawls/weather warnings/etc during storm coverage, as well as breaking into network programming .... I've seen stations from all across the country via "DX" signal propagation(and while travelling) and I don't see Cincinnati stations being much different than the others in terms of how they handle school closing info and weather warnings/severe weather coverage/etc ...

I've heard the same thing about "balancing" storm coverage vs. Regular programming from the local meteoroligists as Mr. Freeman expressed in the article.

I also see no indication from the article you provided a link to, or your comments that they do things much, if any differently than the Cincinnati stations ...

tbenson81

03-09-05, 03:21 PM

I think that Cincinnati needs to do a better job of balancing. Rarely does the weather in Cincinnati ever warrant a "breaking news" alert and it probably isnt smart to even run a crawling bug during primetime shows. When people are watching some of the top rated shows on TV, such as Survivor or CSI, you are going to make a lot more people upset than those happy to see the news. Cincinnati local affiliates need to leave the primetime programming intact unless there is something of national significance.

If you do indeed watch all of these other affiliates programming in various parts of the county, I am sure that you will find several that do a better job than Cincinnati

cokebear

03-09-05, 03:50 PM

Have any of you checked out the substation on WCPO(9-2)? It certainly is a little easier to listen to.

Nitewatchman

03-09-05, 04:10 PM

Cokebear,

It has been a while since I've heard anything on there except the NWS audio. Occasionally They used to have video from the Channel 9 weathermen giving forcasts as well. To be honest, I think I prefer the NWS audio, although I could listen to it direct from NWS if I wanted ....

Update: Oh, they do have video of the weather guys up now ... And the audio levels are much better than what they had ....

Originally posted by tbenson81
If you do indeed watch all of these other affiliates programming in various parts of the county, I am sure that you will find several that do a better job than Cincinnati

Attached Screenshot of local programming from KCNC(CBS Denver) , received via Spoardic E propagation from my location here During Primetime CBS programming 6/2/02 :

tbenson81

03-09-05, 04:32 PM

Jeff,

I hope that for your sake you are not comparing wildfires to 1/4 inch of snow.

Nitewatchman

03-09-05, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by tbenson81
as most know the old saying "nothing ever bad happens in Cincinnati"

And the 24~36" of Snow we had in December? Granted it was just snow not accompnied by high winds/etc such as was the case during blizzards in winter 77/78, however it caused some significant problems. What about The 99 Tornado which destroyed many homes and damaged business in the Northern Cincinnati suburbs? The Flood of 97? The 74 Super outbreak of Tornados? I don't keep a list, but severe weather and other incidences of local signficance often effect our area. I'm sure you might think the coverage of the fire at the Queen City Barrel Co. as "too extensive" because it wasn't a event of "national signficiance", or the Beverly hills Supper Club fire in 78/etc/etc ...

Originally posted by tbenson81
I think that Cincinnati needs to do a better job of balancing.

Then contact the stations and tell them what you think.

As I said previously, I think stations(and this isn't exclusive to Cincinnati) sometimes go a little "overboard" with "super doppler" weather reports when all that ends up resulting is garden variety thunderstorms. HOWEVER, sometimes it happens in such a way that there are tornado touchdowns in Central Indiana, and by the time it gets here, the storms have weakened. I think mostly, they do a fairly good job of "balancing things", but it seems to me that when there has been a long period since the last incidence of severe weather, it is more likely that they tend to go a little "overboard" on things, in my opinion, for what that's work ...

And, keep in mind 1" of rain=about 10" of snow. These things can be difficult to forcast and I can't blame them for being safe rather than sorry.

Originally posted by tbenson81
Rarely does the weather in Cincinnati ever warrant a "breaking news" alert and it probably isnt smart to even run a crawling bug during primetime shows.

Again, the EAS alerts aren't issued by the stations, they are issued by NWS. Stations are required to serve the public by participating in the EAS and alert viewers to "winter storm advisories"/etc, the stations aren't issuing these warnings/alerts/etc.

Did you contact your friend at KSN and explain to him you weren't actually talking about "interuptions", you were talking about crawls with school closing info? Did you ask him if they ever ran "crawls" with school closings/weather info during primetime programming?

Originally posted by tbenson81
I hope that for your sake you are not comparing wildfires to 1/4 inch of snow.

Come on man. When was the last time you saw a Cincinnati station interupt primetime programming(not weather advisories via a bug on screen because of a winter weather advisory issued by NWS, not a crawl with school closings) for a forcast of 1/4" of snow?

Nothing bad ever happens in Colorado :rolleyes:

Originally posted by tbenson81

Maybe you as well as many other people in Cincinnati are just a little too sheltered.

This is getting nowhere. Contact the stations and voice your concerns if you have an issue concerning their "balancing" of local info and handling of a forecast of "1/4 of snow" .....

tbenson81

03-09-05, 05:19 PM

I admire your persistence on this issue Jeff and agree that this argument is going nowhere. You cited the perfect example though. Olympic coverage last summer - preempted so we could watch the barrell company burn for 13 straight hours. I will bring my case to the local stations so myself and other viewers can enjoy uninteruppted programming

goheelz

03-09-05, 06:37 PM

to help beat the dead horse some more here are my two cents.

the stations want to break in with weather info. they want crawls going with closings. this so they can get more eyeballs on their channels. if they incite a semi-panic people will stay tuned so they don't miss important info. they figure no one will turn off a channel because of a crawl, but they may catch a non-typical viewer.

In the summer you can watch for the heat alerts, telling you how to handle it. my parents were visiting from Florida the other summer and cracked up when a 90 degree temp brought up a heat alert.

at the end of the day, this is not much different than any other large media market.

at least WLW radio makes fun of it occasionally.

Jeff

tbenson81

03-09-05, 07:17 PM

That has to be the most riduculous thing I have ever read. Crawlers and weather updates are now a marketing gimmick to attract viewers. Someone catches it and watches the alert and says to themselves "ABC is a great channel, I better start watching"

William Smith

03-09-05, 09:02 PM

tbenson81,

It's my( and Weasels and Don's) job to make sure that the information is provided to people like you... what you do or don't do with that information is up to you.. If we save one life its worth it ...even if its someone who doesn't want to be saved... it is after all just television and no one has died from missing a standard def show...much less a HD one..but they have died from not being warned.

jim tressler

03-09-05, 10:21 PM

i remember in the mid 80's .. I was a wee lad not even in my teens and I can remember Dick Goddard, Channel 8 in Cleveland (CBS at the time) talking about the small little "W" that would be placed on the screen during tornado watches and warnings as well as severe t-storm warnings.. I thought it was cool at the time.. ahh the simple life back then :)

tbenson81

03-10-05, 09:18 AM

William -you are right, it is your job to warn people and save lives and Jeff those are more legitimate examples that you have named. The blizzard of 78 or whenever and the tornadoes of 99 all warrant a break in coverage and people need to be warned.

However, it seems apparent to me that William (you especially) seem to think people's lives are in danger over petty little storms and they are not.

Warn us of the events that could endanger someones well being.

This really is unbelievable to me that everyone is this liberal with their weather warnings. I can only imagine what it would be like if Cincinnati was located up in the New England area where extreme weather hits all the time. We wouldnt ever be watching any TV and there would be no need for this AVS forum.

dusterscott

03-10-05, 09:25 AM

I've been sitting back not commenting on this debate. My opinion on the matter is this - television is one of the main methods people use to get information. Therefore it should be used to convey important information to the public. It shouldn't matter if the channel is broadcasting in HD or not. Everything will be in HD someday soon anyways. I believe discretion should be used though. In most cases a bug or a scrolling of the information at the bottom of the screen should suffice. I'm not from this area. I grew up in Canada, and when I first moved to the U.S. I lived in northern Wisconsin. If they would have cancelled school every time it snowed a couple of inches, I'd still be in 8th grade (and I'm 41) :)

William Smith

03-10-05, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by tbenson81
William -you are right, it is your job to warn people and save lives and Jeff those are more legitimate examples that you have named. The blizzard of 78 or whenever and the tornadoes of 99 all warrant a break in coverage and people need to be warned.

However, it seems apparent to me that William (you especially) seem to think people's lives are in danger over petty little storms and they are not.

Warn us of the events that could endanger someones well being.

This really is unbelievable to me that everyone is this liberal with their weather warnings. I can only imagine what it would be like if Cincinnati was located up in the New England area where extreme weather hits all the time. We wouldnt ever be watching any TV and there would be no need for this AVS forum.

The weather alerts that are on WCVN analog ( we are working on the digital system) are generated by the NWS directly. We simply pass the information through the pipe.

The reason the snow alerts are more important here is for two reasons..

1. We get freezing rain and ice before we get snow. I don't know how many times I have passd people on I-75 with Canadian and NE plates who have slid off the road due to black ice.

2. People and governments here are not as equipped to handle snow as the ones in the Northeast.

Its NOAA/NWS's job to do weather and ours to inform people when there is an alert they make the call not us.

To protect people's lives you err on the side of caution as you can't afford to be wrong.

Weather is not an exact science either, a few years ago NWS predicted a "light dusting" in Lexington, I woke up to 3/4" of ice, 17 inches of snow and I-75 was shut down...

Nitewatchman

03-10-05, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by tbenson81
I admire your persistence on this issue Jeff and agree that this argument is going nowhere. You cited the perfect example though. Olympic coverage last summer - preempted so we could watch the barrell company burn for 13 straight hours. I will bring my case to the local stations so myself and other viewers can enjoy uninteruppted programming

I'm going to try this ONE MORE TIME.

The point AGAIN that seems to be getting missed here by some is that "heat alerts"/NWS weather alerts, the way the smoke plume is blowing and if there any toxic chemicals in the air involved from the Queen City barrel fire, severe weather information, School closing information/etc/etc/etc IS ALL part of broadcasters responsibity to the Public interest, and it is RELEVANT information for the public interest. So are winter weather advisories issued by NWS(which again, as both I and William have said now is the NWS's call, NOT the stations which are required to pass along the info) even if there is only 1/4" of snow involved.

Commercial broadcasters are "in business" for sure, however, the airwaves they broadcast on are in the public trust -- How those airwaves are used is to some extent regulated by FCC ... Both FCC, and, "the public"(through their representatives in Congress) want to see the broadcaters serve their local communities with LOCAL news and information. That's one important purpose broadcasters serve. It is not all about entertainment. It is not only about events of "national significance".

If broadcasters are "negligent" in their duties to serve the public and the local community, they run the risk of being fined by FCC(even run the risk of losing the PRIVILIGE to broadcast on the public airwaves if it were found the station is "negligent" enough in its duties to the public), and they must be concerned as well about various groups or indivduals who want the public "informed" of these issues, and possibly even folks suing them for NOT providing information such as "heat alerts", the way the smoke is blowing from the Queen City barrel fire, if a high wind blows their car off the road during a "wind advisory"/etc/etc/etc ....

As we discussed earlier, two stations were recently FINED $$$$$ in CA by FCC for not providing closed captioning info during their local coverage of California Wildfires ...

tbenson81

03-10-05, 12:09 PM

I love both of your attempts to enhonnerate the local affiliates of any blame.

1. If the NWS controlled everything, how come some local affiliates such as CBS do a great job of controlling these alerts and hardly ever interrupt programming? If I am watching NBC, CBS and ABC during a minor storm, chances are NBC and CBS will be intact and Pete Delkus will be out with "his little wand" and getting his weekly camera time. So unless you can prove some uniformity among all the local affiliates Jeff, your NWS argument just isnt going to pan out.

2. I advise that perhaps you reread the article I sent you yesterday where someone in the biz for 19 years talks extensively about severity of the issue and the # of people affected. The barrell smoke hardly affected anyone so your labeling that as "public interest" is also a stretch. You will probably write back ...."what about the families who lived close and were inhaling toxic fumes". Well again, the people who would be in danger from the fumes are slim to none and we didnt need to watch it for 13 hours. We got the point - well at least most of us.

3. Your arguments are starting to slip Jeff and since for some reason, you have most people on this board scared to defy the great nitewatchman, I guess we will continue to battle it out until you believe the cows have come home.

luebster

03-10-05, 12:22 PM

Tony, there is a difference between an interruption and a crawl.

An interruption is when Delkus comes out with his Extreme Ginormous Doppler Storm Tracker and actually prevents you from watching The Bachelorette or whatever other show that is so critical.

A crawl is when there is a 1" line of text running from right to left across the bottom of the picture. Sometimes there is also a graphical overlay in one of the four corners of the screen representing the immediate tri-state viewing area and any NWS-related warning (t-storm warning, winter storm advisory, flood watch, etc).

Yes, they are sometimes annoying and admittedly, stations often switch from HD to SD to do this (I'm sure it's a hardware/software issue). However, none of this prevents you from watching The Starlet or whatever other show is so critical.

No one here is debating that sometimes the local wx guys go overboard. It's partly for 11PM news ratings, but it's mostly because weather in this area is probably the most difficult to predict. Remember a few months ago when they said we'd get a dusting and we got 3 or 4 inches? The whole town got bent out of shape because they got it wrong. EVERYBODY INCLUDING THE NWS GOT IT WRONG!

I'd rather they go overboard and we get nothing than the other way around. I live in a very rural part of Butler county and if we get 4 or 5 inches of snow, I'm not getting out of my neck of the woods to get to a store. I need to know well ahead of time so I can get to the store if my pantry is under-stocked.

So Tony, I respect your passion and I too would like to see something slightly less intrusive.

But to expect the local TV stations to not display ANYTHING short of tornadoes or a presidential assassination is ridiculous.

terryfoster

03-10-05, 12:59 PM

I think it's funny to base arguements on events that the media and NWS were left to predic.

*Whack* Take that, dead horse!

__________________________
"Don't argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference!"

Nitewatchman

03-10-05, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by tbenson81
I love both of your attempts to enhonnerate the local affiliates of any blame.

1. If the NWS controlled everything, how come some local affiliates such as CBS do a great job of controlling these alerts and hardly ever interrupt programming? If I am watching NBC, CBS and ABC during a minor storm, chances are NBC and CBS will be intact and Pete Delkus will be out with "his little wand" and getting his weekly camera time. So unless you can prove some uniformity among all the local affiliates Jeff, your NWS argument just isnt going to pan out.

2. I advise that perhaps you reread the article I sent you yesterday where someone in the biz for 19 years talks extensively about severity of the issue and the # of people affected. The barrell smoke hardly affected anyone so your labeling that as "public interest" is also a stretch. You will probably write back ...."what about the families who lived close and were inhaling toxic fumes". Well again, the people who would be in danger from the fumes are slim to none and we didnt need to watch it for 13 hours. We got the point - well at least most of us.

3. Your arguments are starting to slip Jeff and since for some reason, you have most people on this board scared to defy the great nitewatchman, I guess we will continue to battle it out until you believe the cows have come home.

#1) It's not a "NWS" arguement. I have not researched the "specifics" concerning what "exactly" is currently required, by law, of local broadcasters concerning passing through of local level EAS alerts, so I may have "overstepped" a bit with my "requirement for EAS warnings/weather warnings" comments -- (see I freely admit when I am or might be wrong)However, nevertheless, none of the broadcasters need to be "exhonerated" for serving the public interest by passing along ANY information which is IN the public interest.

#2). I read, and commented on the article, yesterday. As I also said yesterday, I've heard very much the same thing from fine folks in our area such as Pete Delkus.

#3) That's ridiculous. I'm very disappointed that you don't have a better understanding concerning what AVSforum is all about. I would suggest you might want to do a little more READING and researching of the issues you are commenting on before making such derogatory, and, just plain rude statements as you have often been making during our discussion.

Furthermore, you don't even seem to understand my "arguement" yet. I'm basically merely pointing out some of the VALID reasons why stations broadcast weather info, school closings, emergency info/etc/etc/etc, and WHY broadcasting that info is a perfectly valid "choice" by the stations. AGAIN it is In order to serve their local community and the PUBLIC INTEREST. Whether you or I personally think any given circumstance such as a "heat alert" or coverage of queen city barrel fire it's "valid" or not TO OUR interest, or the interest of viewers who would rather see "bug free"/Break in free Network programming, is NOT what I'm debating, but it IS what you are debating ... Such a debate would really be pointless, and as I said before, I think the place for you to make your "feelings" known is via contacting the station and tell THEM what you think ...

------------------------------------------

Anyhow -- Don't take MY word for it, research the FACTS -- Here are a few links to help you out a little. :

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/audio/decdoc/public_and_broadcasting.html

A quote from the above link, the "The Public and Broadcasting" section on FCC site -- especially note the FIRST sentence -- "All stations have an obligation to cover inportant issues facing their communities" ..... This is FCC saying this, NOT me :

"As discussed above, all stations have an obligation to cover important issues facing their communities, to comply with requirements governing use of their facilities by candidates for public office, and to refrain from airing indecent programming during times children are likely to be in the audience. In addition, TV stations must air educational programming for children and limit the amount of advertising in children's programs. We encourage a continuing dialogue between broadcasters and members of the public to ensure that stations meet their obligations and remain responsive to the needs of the local community. "

: End quote

Here are some more links with info on EAS(used to be EBS) :

http://www.fcc.gov/eb/eas/

http://ftp.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/eas.html

http://www.fcc.gov/eb/easfact.html

A quote from one of links above:

"Since January 1, 1997, all AM, FM and TV broadcast stations have been using the above test procedures. Also, since December 31, 1998, cable systems that have 10,000 or more subscribers are part of the EAS. They are doing the above tests and have the capability to transmit emergency messages on all of their video channels."

Here is a link to FCC's latest NPRM(notice of proposed rulemaking) concerning EAS :

http://www.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/2004/FCC-04-189A1.html

Here is a quote, from paragraphs 3+8 from the NPRM(Issued Fall 2004) at above link(references to footnotes removed) :

3. Along with its primary role as a national public
warning system, EAS and other emergency notification
mechanisms, are part of an overall public alert and warning
system, over which the Federal Emergency Management Agency
(FEMA) exercises jurisdiction. EAS use as part of such a
public warning system at the state and local levels, while
encouraged, is merely voluntary. Thus, although Federal,
state, and local governments, and the consumer electronics
industry have taken steps to ensure that alert and warning
messages are delivered by a responsive, robust and redundant
system, the permissive nature of EAS at the state and local
level has resulted in an inconsistent application of EAS as
an effective component of overall public alert and warning
system. Accordingly, we believe that we should now consider
whether permissive state and local EAS participation is
appropriate in today's world.

8. In 1994, the Commission adopted rules that replaced
EBS with EAS (described in further detail below) and,
consistent with a statutory requirement, required cable
systems as well as broadcast stations to install EAS
equipment and participate in national alerts and required
testing.9 In 1997, the Commission extended EAS requirements
to wireless cable systems, with the qualified support of that
industry.