NBA Western Conference Game 1 on ABC looks like crap. Far shots which is almost all live action is really bad. I can still see the jaggies on the three point line. Close up shots are good, but again far shots almost to bad to even watch.

This of course is local WCPO-DT issue, not a ABC Nat'l issue. When WKEF-DT actually is sending HD, it's easy to see not only the "jaggie free" aspect of ABC HD from WKEF-DT, but also quite apparent increased resolution/sharpness/etc(because, IMO, contrary to what we are getting from WCPO-DT since 8/04, it actually is true HD from WKEF-DT, with 1280x720 unique pixels in every frame).

WCPO engineering have told me they are going to do everything they can to get rid of the "jaggies" and have "pristine HD"(you know, how it used to be before their studio move last summer) by the time MNF HD football rolls around again ...

We'll see ...

Well I am now receiving PSIP program info from WKRC in addition to the subchannel. I will have to watch and see if I notice any problems caused by low bandwidth for the HD channel. Still no PSIP from WXIX and their engineer isn't as helpful as others around town. Also, I know I should ask this in the Dayton thread, but does anyone know the engineers email at WDTN? I still can't PSIP from them and I have used their website, but never received a reply. This new layout of the website will take a little while to get used to.

Junk

Junk,

WDTN-DT's CE email address is listed on this page at WDTN site :

http://www.wdtn.com/index.cfm?action=dsp_story&storyid=46

I noticed the email address for him as shown on the site is different than the one I have, perhaps that is why I have not received a response from him in a long time, although my emails never bounced back .... I can say however that in the past, he used to be very responsive to viewer inquiries/comments/etc ...

--------------------------------------------

I don't know why PSIP info isn't working from some of the stations, as all those seem to be working just fine, here. WBDT-DT Dayton is the only one currently(and for the past 9 days) which is not decodable with Zenith receiver here, I suspect because of a PSIP issue they are likely having. Channel remapping from VCT is also working properly from everyone(except WBDT-DT of course).

Just an idea, but you might want to try to "investigate" the possibility that your receiver/receiver's firmware may not be fully supporting A65b PSIP standard. I do know I think I've heard the internal Mits tuners are very good about "falling back" to using MPEG program info(and therefore still actually be able to decode the streams when it can't "figure out" the PSIP info the station is sending) .... And, I think I'd read that the earlier mits internal tuners weren't designed to support PSIP at all(obviously not the case with yours).

Personally, at this stage of the game I'm pretty happy as long as the A/V can be properly decoded on my end ... I surely don't care what channel # a station "shows up on"(I'd actually prefer turning VCT info "off" and using the actual RF channel # rather than the remapped channel # - too bad most receivers don't let you do this) ... Off air EPG info, and some of the other stuff from EIT/ETT certianly are a nice feature though ...

----------------------------------------------------

Update: couple of other thoughts -- I'm sure you've already tried this, and I have no idea how your receiver model behaves in this regard -- but just in case -- Some receivers seem to require a channel rescan after a station changes certian values in their PSIP tables in order to see their PSIP info properly .. Especially if you haven't done a channel rescan in a while(which should clear out any "old stuff"), you might want to try it and see if it helps ...

Other than that, only other thing I could think of is some sort of "bug" that's specific to the PSIP setup at the station and your particular receiver model -- These such issues can be difficult, and may require cooperation and communication concerning the issue between station engineer and your hardware manufacturer ...

Let us know if/when it ever gets worked out and, if you find out what the solution was ...

Jeff:

The PSIP issues I have change often, so I usually try to stay in contact with the engineers. I find it interesting that you are having problems with WBDT-DT PSIP, because my Mits is decoding it, but I don't have a program guide, just the station ID. I am down to two stations that my Mits can't get PSIP data on, WXIX and WDTN, everything else is good. I used to get WXIX, until Jan or so, also had WDTN for a while, but since Nov-Dec, nothing. Also because I use my DVHS very often, I would like to know that a program is recorded and not skipped because the station changes something and my TV isn't quick enough to catch it. I haven't had any real problems, but I will be patient and just keep sending emails until something happens.

Junk,

WDTN-DT did make a PSIP change around the time you lost them, along with the PID change(WXIX, and most other stations did PID change as well around that time) -- The MPEG program streams from WDTN-DT used to be:

50-2 - HD (PSIP remap to 2-1)
50-3 - SD (PSIP remap to 2-2)

Since Jan or so, that changed to:

50-3 - SD (PSIP remap to 2-2)
50-4 - HD (PSIP remap to 2-1)

So, the SD and HD "flipped" around if you have a receiver that's not using the PSIP VCT info.

Update: Oh yeah, another thing - WDTN also began sending EPG info via PSIP for their ANALOG station (2-0) around the time of their PID change. They are the only station in the area that seems to be doing this presently, although WCVN-DT used to do it for WCVN 54-0.

Also, yeah, receiver model specific PSIP issues with receiver's which depend upon proper PSIP from the station are a drag ....

On WBDT-DT, so you are seeing it remapped to Virtual Channel 26-1 instead of as 18-3, even if you have done a channel rescan since 5/13 ?

My DTC-100 is "in for repair", but has decoded them just fine(but only when I had PSIP turned off on it, I don't have that option on my Zenith receiver) when this has happened previously, and the Zenith Did not. WBDT-DT stopped decoding here on 5/13 when a line of storms moved through Dayton, this happened before 2 times, on 4/22 for about a week and a half until they fixed it, and for a week or so previously in the past 6 months or so, can't recall exactly when.

BTW, When it was working I've never seen Program guide info from WBDT-DT, I don't think they are sending any.

Thanks,

Was watching HD "Everwood" on WSTR-DT tonight, and during the program they inserted a promo for a WB 64 news story they are doing tonight at bottom of screen ... They did NOT drop from HD!

The only other time I've seen anything like this from a local station was the "WEBN" logo during HD Riverfest coverage from WKRC-DT in 2002+2003, and the UC HD games from WXIX-DT this year .. But, those of course involved HD production trucks ....

Way to go WSTR :)

I first noticed the crawl last week during the final Smallville for this season. I find it interesting that they can do it during HD programming while the other stations can't without dropping to SD.

Jeff, any other clues? I have a Winegard SS-1000 (not amplified) so I don't think I have the problem you mention above. All other DT I get fine, just WLWT-DT which I used to get perfectly before their upgrade. Did they change the antenna location at all? Hope not...

For the sake of completeness, I'm reporting back on my troubleshooting...

Turns out that there must have been something wrong with my TV... I did a unit reset and..wham!... WLWT-DT came back on!

Thanks for your help, Nitewatchman.

I did a unit reset and..wham!... WLWT-DT came back on!


Good news, thanks for the update.

Jeff

I get WBDT-DT perfect on my Mits, with PSIP remap. I will write WDTN again and continue to write WXIX until PSIP is working. Haven't watched WKRC, so I can't report if the weather subchannel is affecting the main HD channel. I will be disappointed if all the stations start their own weather service. If they want viewers, put on good programing, not weather channels. WCPO seems to have the lead with their channel being used on cable and WCPO uses 720p, which is much better with subchannels. I would much rather see the stations put their time and effort into other things like DD5.1 and in-studio HD, then put up a weather channel that will not be watched enough to justify losing picture quality.

.... Haven't watched WKRC, so I can't report if the weather subchannel is affecting the main HD channel....

I watched CSI Miami last night on WKRC-DT since WHIO's center dialogue channel was missing. I saw slight artifacting on the fast moving scenes and some "softness". In my opinion, WHIO-DT has an edge in PQ, but I'm hardly an expert.

Paul

I am moving from Cincinnati to the West Central part of Ohio. I will be about 100 miles away from downtown Cincinnati. Is there an antenna that will reach that far to pick up the Cincinnati local stations?

Is there a way to get the Cincinnati local stations via some sort of satelite?

nachoman91,

I'm afraid the Cincinnati stations coverage area reaches to a few miles or so North of I-70 .. Much farther than that and, due to the height of transmitting antennas the main limiting factor for reliable VHF/UHF reception(Curvature of the Earth) is going to get in the way.

With a hi-gain directional antenna setup mast mount preamp and mounted as high as you can get it, you might be able to pull in the Dayton Stations if you are going to be say -- Celina/St. Marys area or South (Lima+Ft. Wayne are also a possibility from Celina/St Marys) ... ... North of that, Ft. Wayne/Lima and maybe Toledo area might be worth a shot OTA ...

You won't be able to get the Cincinnati stations via satellite(DBS LIL via E* or D*), I'd guess you'll probably be in Either Dayton or Ft Wayne DMA and therefore would be eligible for those stations via LIL (analog, no sat service currently carries DTV/HD locals).

I do believe however TW Western OH(I think they might call it TW SW Ohio now) serves much of that area all the way North to Lima. For instance, a poster in Lima in Dayton thread once indicated via TW, he was getting digital/HD stations out of Dayton, Toledo, and perhaps Columbus as well if I recall correctly.

You might want to search the local Threads for Dayton/Lima, and Ft. Wayne for more info.

Hope this helps.

anyone here have an htpc? I am trying to put one together and am looking at the myhd card.. anyone have any experence with that card?

thanks

jim

anyone here have an htpc? I am trying to put one together and am looking at the myhd card.. anyone have any experence with that card?

thanks

jim

I have an MCE HTPC with Fusion HD card. Was going to go with MyHD card originally but the guy "on these forums" that controls manufacturer or something to that extent refuses to release drivers to make it compatible with MCE. 60% of my time on HTCP is spent watching movies from my home server or music videos, so MCE was far superior in that extent then what MyHD guy offers or other packages.

thanks dimitriz... it appears that the myhd is its own "video card" and can do component out, without powerstrip.. which would be perfect.. except for that if I want to play divx, xvid.. you cant without a separate card.. so if thats the case, then I can save $100 or so and get a fusion or even the new avermedia card and connect to other pc's in the house.. how do you connect your pc to your hdtv?

thanks

jim

thanks dimitriz... it appears that the myhd is its own "video card" and can do component out, without powerstrip.. which would be perfect.. except for that if I want to play divx, xvid.. you cant without a separate card.. so if thats the case, then I can save $100 or so and get a fusion or even the new avermedia card and connect to other pc's in the house.. how do you connect your pc to your hdtv?

thanks

jim

I bought this card:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814122216
(Leadtek A6200 128 TD Geforce 6200 128MB DDR AGP 4X/8X Video Card)
it has Compnent out and I believe you should be able to use DVI also. (My TV doesnt have a DVI)
Then I got a Hauppauge 500MCE card and a Fusion HD.

BTW, if you do get a Fusion and decide to go MCE, then get M$ remote! Fusion remote can emulate MS one, but I had to press buttons like 3-5 times before the PC registered them. With MS remote I was flying through menus.
The only thing that SUCKS about MCE is they have no QAM support yet, only ATSC is supported.
Fusion card also had 1 quirk. I have a P4-3Ghz with HT. If I leave HT on and scan the channels the Fusion app freezes after scanning, not sure if this was fixed in the new software release.
Get something soon also, before broadcasting flag goes up for HD. (Sometime in July I believe).

Lost PSIP from WKRC-DT, but still the weather subchannel.

Dont know if anyone else noticed, but analog 61 is no longer on the air. I am not sure if this is from now on or just a problem with their E* subscription.

Junk

I am not sure if this is from now on or just a problem with their E* subscription.


That is funny ... Their E* surely does often seem to have "rain fade" problems ...

They do have a Construction permit from FCC to move to channel 36 -- its possible that might have something to do with it ...

See the ch 36 listing for W61DE here: http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=W61DE&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

Well PSIP is working again on WKRC. Also noticed that TBN 61 was back up last night.

since this past football season, but my goodness is the quality of the HD signal on tonights SA - Phoenix game poor. There are so many jagged lines around the 3-pt line, the foul-line boundry area, the boundry lines around the outer court perimeter, the advertising banner along announcers row, it is hurting my eyes to watch this video feed.

I've never done THIS before with an HD program event, but think I'll have to switch to the analog feed for this broadcast. I haven't kept in touch with the posts over the last several months, but seem to recall that there was some equipment on the local affiliates end that needed to be changed out to remedy the jagged line issue...and this was during last years football season...I guess it' didn't make the '05 budget. That's unfortunate as this is as horrific a video broadcast as I think I've ever seen on HD.

wow.. wcpo is horrid!! thats the worse case of jaggies I have ever seen! nightwatchman.. any new updates from wcpo?

jim

Yeah, it does look awful on WCPO-DT. Looks great on WKEF-DT, though.

Nothing new Jim. Last I talked to their DOE about a month ago he said their signal should be "pristine" by the time MNF HD starts next year ....

Fingers crossed, although of course I'm a bit skeptical it will even be "fixed" then, as of course it was fine before the studio move last year ... Everytime I've mentioned the downsampling to 1280x360 "unique" pixels that is occuring somewhere on their end during ABC HD(probably somewhere in the chain for ABC HD feed between the sat receiver+encoder) -- o matter how much detail I go into in trying to discuss the issue ----for instance I even made it a point to mention that I know their ENCODER is sending 1280x720p -- I keep getting a non-sensical "we are sending 720p" response ....

I remember hoping last year that the guys in the truck doing the Bengals MNF HD home game would have checked out WCPO-DT's signal and saw the mess that resulted -- as, I was hoping maybe they would have been able to get the message through ;)

hpm,

you might want to search this thread for "jaggies", "1280x360" or posts from dr1394 for more info on WCPO-DT's issue.


-------------------
Music Hall HD on WCET-DT

Well, it got started a little "late" but Kudos to WCET-DT for HD production of "Music Hall - Cincinnati Finds it's Voice" ... Looks good so far, allways nice to see local HD, especially a production focusing on one of my favorite places ... Although it's what the place does for my ears that I appreciate most ...

I've read what you guys have been saying about "jaggies" on WCPO but I really didn't see the big deal. Tonight's PHX-SA NBA playoff brought it home for me.

The quality of the picture is terrible. Every line on the court -- sideline, 3-pt line, etc. -- looks blocky. Why is it so much worse tonight?

The quality of the picture is terrible. Every line on the court -- sideline, 3-pt line, etc. -- looks blocky. Why is it so much worse tonight?

It's been there all the time from WCPO-DT during ABC HD since after their studio move last summer(It was fine prior to their move, at least back to fall 2001 when I first started watching HD from them) --- It's just much more noticable from certian camera angles during MNF HD football(a "press box" camera angle especially), and the NBA HD games -- Perhaps more noticable during hoops than HD football ....

Per Dr1394's posts+research into this issue, I believe something in their signal chain for HD is downsampling the 1280x720p feed from ABC to a 1280x360 "effective" resolution-- All the "unique" pixel data that is present in ABC HD feed is not what ends up coming out of WCPO-DT's HD encoder.. Not only are there "jaggies", but if you compare to another source of ABC HD(such as WKEF-DT Dayton), the reduced resolution(since all the unique pixel data is not there) is quite apparent -- It ends up looking quite a bit softer than it should be ... Of course, prior to last summer, one could not tell this difference between WCPO-DT and other sources of ABC HD ....

for a WCPO contact? I actually rolled to the analog broadcast last night for the game, and found it an improvement over the HD broadcast. And to think that WCPO will be carrying the NBA finals in a week or so.. that's even more scarry than what I witnessed last night, as I'm thinking a SA-Detroit finals would be quite entertaining.

I would hope there would be some level of pride with WCPO in what viewers are seeing with their HD broadcasts..that was flat-out the worst HD broadcast I've ever seen last night. If you have a contact, I'll certainly drop an email, or make a phone call.. tia

hpm123,

I don't feel comfortable passing along personal contact info, but you've got a great idea and the more folks that contact them about the issue, the better ... One good way to try to get through to engineering might be to call their main switchboard during the day and ask for engineering. You can find WCPO contact info here :

http://wcpo.com/helpdesk/contactus.html

Well, as "promised", WXIX-DT is now multicasting "The Tube" music video channel on SD 19.2 ...

Shouldn't be a problem for FOX HD quality given 720p and the way their HD splicer distribution system works, any local HD from WXIX-DT could be a different story, however -- we will see ....

I must say, I am enjoying most of the content on "The Tube" so far ..

Update: hmmm ... Bit rate for 19.2 looks/sounds to be pretty low -- Lots of MPEG2 compression artifacts, and it certianly doesn't sound "hi-fi" .... Which of course is likely a good thing for 19.1 ...

I hope they can turn up the sound on 19-2. 19-1 is louder which means you have to always turn down the volume on the TV or stereo receiver. I am enjoying the variety in videos. It reminds me of the old days when MTV/VH1 actually showed music videos.

Robert..

Blow an e-mail into gm@fox19.com. Long does read and foward those things.

Doc

hpm123,

I don't feel comfortable passing along personal contact info, but you've got a great idea and the more folks that contact them about the issue, the better ... One good way to try to get through to engineering might be to call their main switchboard during the day and ask for engineering. You can find WCPO contact info here :

http://wcpo.com/helpdesk/contactus.html

I certainly respect that.. Will give them a call during the next broadcast and see if they're aware.. thanks for the response

nice local article on harris which is located in deerfield township

http://www.mysan.de/article116943.html

Update: hmmm ... Bit rate for 19.2 looks/sounds to be pretty low -- Lots of MPEG2 compression artifacts, and it certianly doesn't sound "hi-fi" .... Which of course is likely a good thing for 19.1 ...

Very very compressed, but I don't mind it for the sake of 19.1. It does render some videos completely blurred though. The big question is: are Insight and TW carrying it, and I assume at a better rate? This article would indicate so. It would also indicate commercials, but I haven't seen one yet. I watched it for a solid hour last night, and recall how easily I was sucked into MTV as a kid. I came home and found my wife glued to it.

http://www.mediaweek.com/mw/news/tvstations/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000894518

Edit: they also really need to work on their search engine presence, took forever to find this:
http://www.thetubetv.com/

Hi guys, it's been a while. Anyway just got a notice that our apartment complex is making the switch to TW in august and wanting to get some thoughts on service and equipment. I currently have E*, OTA and SBC dsl services and would be looking at HD DVR & RR from TW and dropping phone service altogether if I make the switch.

Hi guys, it's been a while. Anyway just got a notice that our apartment complex is making the switch to TW in august and wanting to get some thoughts on service and equipment. I currently have E*, OTA and SBC dsl services and would be looking at HD DVR & RR from TW and dropping phone service altogether if I make the switch.

I have D* plus 2 OTA's (one for Dayton, one for Cincinnati). I just recently cancelled my SBC DSL service and local phone. I use Roadrunner for internet and am very happy with it. I still use Yahoo for my home page and emails though.

I certainly respect that.. Will give them a call during the next broadcast and see if they're aware.. thanks for the response


I think in order to get hold of anyone, you'll probably have to call their newsroom line ( 852-4071 ) if you are calling after 5pm.

Tell the receptionist it's an issue with their digital station and ask to be transferred to the control room or engineering. If they won't transfer you(which they probably won't as MCO's usually have their hands full with various tasks), ask them to pass along the message to control room or engineering ...

BTW, you can see the "issue" at all times during ABC HD feed(since about 8/04) by examining the ABC bug in lower R.H. Corner, which on WCPO-DT currently will have "jaggies"(a better way to say it would be a staircase pattern) instead of being a perfectly "smooth" circle -- and comparing it with another source of ABC HD(which will have the bug as a perfectly smooth circle), such as WKEF-DT Dayton.

One thing I think that makes this a difficult issue to address when discussing it with them is that the "staircase" pattern that results from the presumed downsampling to 1280x360 by some piece of equipment on their end looks a lot like ordinary interlace artifacts(but about 5 times as worse during "press box" camera angles during MNF HD football/NBA HD finals). And, they are probably quite used to seeing interlace artifacts, so they may not realize how pronounced this issue is at times ... although, of course, one would not expect to see any appreciable sign of interlace artifacts if one is sending 720p to a display that natively supports 720p scan rate ...

Another thing that has been difficult is getting through to them that this is not a decoder/chipset specific issue, or something that is visable on some displays because of various "artifical" enhancements on the display end, such as poorly implemented SVM on some CRT displays ....

Robert..

Blow an e-mail into gm@fox19.com. Long does read and foward those things.

Doc



Thanks for the info Doc. I have noticed that the audio level seems to have stabilized today. Perhaps they were still testing the channel yesterday, and that's why the problem with the sound level. I wonder how Raycom is feeding the channel to its stations, fiber or satellite as a noticed some dropouts last night.

In response to your Time Warner question:

Nobody can rival the products that TW supplies in the Cincinnati area if you are in the market for HSI / HD and DVR. Road Runner is great and is much faster than anything the DSL companies can provide. As far as DVR goes- this has been flawless through TW.
Tony

Did anybody catch the NBC HD broadcast of the Eagles concert last night? I checked both the Dayton and Cincinnati channels and I thought the mix was poor. Specifically the center channel was somewhat muted and the highs were cut off. I bet there was no audio above 10,000 Hz. I thought the picture was decent though.

I am watching The Tube almost more than any other channel I receive OTA. In a perfect world, I would like to see it without all the motion artifacts, but I like it how it is, so 29.03 doesn't have as many artifacts as .04. I am finding it odd that all the Cincinnati stations want to have a subchannel. While some are ok, I wish the stations would just keep all bandwidth with the main HD channel. I would as guess that when WBQC goes digital, they would put WOTH on a SD subchannel.

As much as I hate the local phone monopoly, I hate the cable co's worse. I pulled the coax from my house and removed all cable lines off my property.


Better yet build your own PC based PVR and avoid the monthy fees. I just am finishing up my HD PVR based on the ati HD wonder card. I need a better video card though


In response to your Time Warner question:

Nobody can rival the products that TW supplies in the Cincinnati area if you are in the market for HSI / HD and DVR. Road Runner is great and is much faster than anything the DSL companies can provide. As far as DVR goes- this has been flawless through TW. I have the SA 8300 HD and havent had 1 problem yet. You can get the HD DVR and RR with digital cable for around 70 bucks. Tell them you want the "sattelite buy back deal"

Tony

I called WXIX today asking about Tube and while they would admit that they were broadcasting it, they said they weren't announcing any information about it and didn't know where I could get any program info etc.. Sounds like they don't want to say anything about it for the time being.




I am watching The Tube almost more than any other channel I receive OTA. In a perfect world, I would like to see it without all the motion artifacts, but I like it how it is, so 29.03 doesn't have as many artifacts as .04. I am finding it odd that all the Cincinnati stations want to have a subchannel. While some are ok, I wish the stations would just keep all bandwidth with the main HD channel. I would as guess that when WBQC goes digital, they would put WOTH on a SD subchannel.

Road Runner is great and is much faster than anything the DSL companies can provide.

Simply not true.

As much as I hate the local phone monopoly, I hate the cable co's worse. I pulled the coax from my house and removed all cable lines off my property.

I used to have the same opinion. I worked for a cable co. for about the last 5years, and gained somewhat of a different perspective. I can state, unequivocally, that cable compaines are constantly getting their subscription fees raised by the likes of an ESPN, a TNT, HBO, etc. In other words..."Mr/Mrs. Cable Company, if you would like to continue being able to offer your customers ESPN, TNT, TBS and the like, then you're going to have to start ponying up an add'l .xxx per subscriber" Naturally, cable companines want to be able to offer their customers these stations, so most times a cable company will experience increases in their programming fees...and you know how these will most times be offset. Not defending the practices of cable companies per se, but actually working for one definitely gave me a different perspective. There are many back end expenses the customers usually are unaware of, the city council who set the franchise fees that a cable company has to pay to be able to come into a community and offer services, are unaware of, the rebuilds that all cable companies have recently undergone to be able to offer high speed internet, telephony, etc. These rebuilds (fiber lays across miles and miles of roadway) were extremely expensive, and these fees have to be offset, and usually its the customer who will participate in recouping these costs. You then have the customer who decided to run a new cable drop inside their house, and now the quality of their cable tv no longer is acceptable, who then places a service call that cannot be resolved by the customer service rep, and this results in whats called a "truck roll". A truck roll is scheduling a technician to come by your house to spend 3hrs troubleshooting a problem that was the result of a customer doing something on their own, and not telling the service rep about it when they placed the call. Happens all the time. And if you think the likes of a DirectTV are not losing money hand over fist as a result of the cut-throat subsciption rates they charge, you're fooling yourself. Their losses are being subsidized by their investors, with the sole initiative of doing this being to build their subscriber base. Once their subscriber base gets to a level of being able to absorb customer losses that will invariably come as a result of raising their montly subscription costs.. they will start....well, you can probably determine how this statement ends.

Anyway, not disagreeing with your opinion, as I shared the same opinion at one time. But actually working for a cable company (I no longer work their so no vested interests in this diatribe) gave me a different perspective. And that's the great thing about America, is we're free to have our own opinion, and free to act upon as we see fit.

In response to your Time Warner question:

Nobody can rival the products that TW supplies in the Cincinnati area if you are in the market for HSI / HD and DVR. Road Runner is great and is much faster than anything the DSL companies can provide. As far as DVR goes- this has been flawless through TW. I have the SA 8300 HD and havent had 1 problem yet. You can get the HD DVR and RR with digital cable for around 70 bucks. Tell them you want the "sattelite buy back deal"

Tony

Tony - if you don't mind my asking, what allservices are you getting with this buy-back deal. $70 for HD service, with the dvr and RR, is a hell of a deal and I may have to enquire into this with TW. Do you get the HD channels (INHD1/2, Discovery, ESPN, TNT) with that rate? I"m almost ready to go to an OTA service as I need to trim some monthly costs, but would have a hard time doing without ESPN and TNT's HD channels. Curious what all you get with this $70 deal...thanks

Bubster- You say "simply not true" yet you produce no information to support what you are saying. As far as the residential market goes, nobody has faster advertised or more importantly "actual" speeds"

true - rr at my office has been a nice and steady 5mbs the last month or so - home with zoomtown is nice and steady too.. 3mbs though.. tw will be out here soon, so I think the competition is good :) - tony how long is that $70 deal good for - ie.. 6 months, then they raise you up?

jim

I was wrong - that is just for the normal DVR. HD DVR is 20 bucks more and HD Tier is 7 dollars more. No movie channels. So 97 + taxes all together

So, basically you just get a better deal on the 1000 combo for selling your sattelite back. The deal may be gone now or may be something new

I"m almost ready to go to an OTA service as I need to trim some monthly costs, but would have a hard time doing without ESPN and TNT's HD channels.

First off all, there is no reason you can't use OTA, either on it's own or in addition to using a cable/sat provider. Especially if your set has a built in DTV(ATSC) receiver, it makes little sense to me NOT to use OTA given that there are probably stations you can receive via OTA HD which are not carried on TW Cincy Cable. For instance, there is : WSTR-DT/WB HD Cincinnati( although, Unfortunetly, the one Cincinnati HD station TW doesn't carry, WSTR-DT is currently running low power and a directional antenna pattern that only squirts a few hundred watts in your direction) ....and from Milford area you are within the coverage area of most of the Dayton stations which, among other things will sometimes have different NFL HD games, or will air Net HD when Cincinnati stations "opt" to run other programming(which does happen occasionally).

So, let's look at the lowest cost option to give you what you seem to want.

OTA programming (Including HD) = Free. Even if you don't have a built in ATSC(DTV/HD) receiver in your set, the cost for a STB+antenna would equal a few months of cable service.

E*'s HD pack(which can be ordered on it's own for $9.99 a month - see here : http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/programming/hdtv/index.shtml ) Has :
ESPNHD
Discovery HD
TNTHD
HDNet
HDnet Movies

For a add'l $5 per month you can get the old "Voom" HD channels.

And yes, E* has a HD DVR(The 942 is their current model). All their "HD" receivers include the receiver for OTA DTV/HD as well.

Jeff,

I followed that link, and at least when ordering online, you are forced to pick a base package ($31+) in order to get the HD Pack. If I could get those channels on their own for $10/mo with a new receiver, that would be a no brainer.

psm,

Not online, but you can do it if you call them. It says so right on the page I provided a link to under the entry at bottom with two stars(**) - which I quote below :

**You may order DISH Network HD Pak by itself. However, VOOM Originals HD Pak is only available with a subscription to DISH Network HD Pak. Certain HD channels will require an additional dish antenna purchase at the time of initial installation.

:end quote

You would of course have to purchase, or lease the receiver and dish/LNB. BTW, I also know The main HD Pak channels are on the 119/110 sats and can be received with a "standard" Dish 500 installation, but the Voom channels, and CBS HD (which we wouldn't be eligible for around here, unless WKRC-DT granted a waiver) are on at 61.5 orbital posistion and would require a 2nd dish ...

Edit Updated:

Ok, found another mention of purchasing the HD pak only in E*'s FAQ's, here, near bottom of page ( http://faq.dishnetwork.com/questions/106.asp?sc=%2F&cboSubCategory=0&cboCategory=0&txtSearch=HD&pg=1 ) it says:

"You can purchase only HDTV channels, however you may be subject to a $5.00 access fee each month if you do not have a basic package such as the America's Top 60."

-----------------------------------------

Personally, currently here we primarily use OTA ( HD/DTV and analog for those stations like WBQC which aren't digital yet) for TV programming, but also use DVD's and E*'s AT60 package(currently $26.99 mo w/o locals, yes, their online form doesn't let you deselect LIL either) with 2 - 311 SD receivers.

For HD from the cablenets that have it via Sat(cable isn't an option, they don't serve my rural location)I'll probably be waiting until :

1.) more cablenets go HD
2.) Dish upgrades their HD to MPEG4 before I upgrade my E* receivers.

Bubster- You say "simply not true" yet you produce no information to support what you are saying. As far as the residential market goes, nobody has faster advertised or more importantly "actual" speeds"

"Faster" for me is network packets getting through with less latency. I care little about downloading huge files in record time. For gaming, which requires a low latency network and minimal packet loss, Zoomtown is much better for me.

[edit] Oh yes, don't let the marketing droids fool you, network speeds whether "actual" or "advertised" are measured with ping, not file download time.

psm,

Not online, but you can do it if you call them. It says so right on the page I provided a link to under the entry at bottom with two stars(**) - which I quote below :

**You may order DISH Network HD Pak by itself. However, VOOM Originals HD Pak is only available with a subscription to DISH Network HD Pak. Certain HD channels will require an additional dish antenna purchase at the time of initial installation.



Jeff - thanks for the headsup on this. $15/mo for these HD channels has piqued my interest.

I'm sure if you go with only this package, that E* is not going to be giving any freebies, such as dish and receiver. Would the equip required be easily sourced on ebay?

Also, what are the issues with rainfade these days, with satellite. I had D* years ago, and rain fade was a big problem with my system. I'm talking probably 7yrs ago when I was on sat service. Not sure if tech has improved to where rain fade isn't the problem it used to be. When you can - thanks

I can only speak from my experience with D*. With my old single LNB dish I had reception problems during electrical storms. Since I went HD and had the triple LNB dish installed, I haven't had any problems whatsoever. I don't know what the reason is. I always assumed it was because the new dish was bigger than the old one.

hpm,

The only input I could give would be I've had E* since 9/04(Dish 500 multisat dish for 110+119 w/dual LNB) and haven't experienced a rain fade problem to the point of "dropouts". The signal meter has dropped to about ~75 at lowest during the heaviest rain, whereas from the meter during normal conditions I get an avereage of about 110 readings off the 110 sat transponders, and average of about 122~125 reading off of 119. I think you need a "50" reading or above for dropout free reception.

I did a self install, and made sure I had best signal I could get and that all the outdoor connections were waterproof - My longest coax run from LNB/switch is also only about 40ft, the "dishpro" stuff I'm using is supposed to be good out to about 200FT coax run. Also, At my location, 110+119 are about the only orbital locations I can use LOS wise because of Trees/terrain issues.

YMMV of course.

I purchased my receivers/dish/LNB new at Sears(I don't think they are doing that any more), but I'd think you might be able to find a deal on used receivers via Ebay/etc -- be careful though, some of their older receivers require a seperate "plug in" module for the OTA HD/DTV receiver side. I think I'd read somewhere that E* seems big now on leasing their equipment for a certian, fairly low $ amount per month, and their current "basic" HD receiver 811(OTA+sat, no DVR/etc) is fairly reasonably priced.

You'll find much more detailed info on the E* sections at DBStalk or sat guys forums, or at E*'s website for info on their current HD receivers.

Oh yes, don't let the marketing droids fool you, network speeds whether "actual" or "advertised" are measured with ping, not file download time.

Now that's not true. Here is a site that gives you download rates based on a file transfer. If this does not give you something close to the advertised rate you should contact your ISP. Yes latency may be an issue with cable, but that is something that I haven't tested.

CNet Bandwidth Report based on file transfer. (reviews.cnet.com/Bandwidth_meter/7004-7254_7-0.html)


Road Runner Cincinnati's Big Files for bandwidth testing (update-server.cinci.rr.com/pub/)


Up/Down Bandwidth Report. May or may not be based on file transfer. (www.wugnet.com/myspeed/speedtest.asp)

Better yet build your own PC based PVR and avoid the monthy fees. I just am finishing up my HD PVR based on the ati HD wonder card. I need a better video card though
I'm waiting for TiVo to release a HD-TiVo that works with cable. At that point I will dump my Time Warner DVR and probably transfer my TiVo lifetime subscription to the new HD-TiVo.

My RR gives me constant 600Kb/s downloads and I do test it 12hr/s a day at least. :)
Latency for my online games is about 30ms to worst about 50ms. Been with them for over 5 years now, never had any speed issues.

Going to move to Maineville in about 6 mnth, so will have to test Adelphia's stuff. :(
Speaking of living far out, anyone used any of the FreeToAir sattelite receivers? (unsure if they are leagal???)

dimitriz - what part of maineville? I live near the 22/3 and 48 intersection (off of Willow Pond) - as long as you are "south or west" of SR 48 - you will most likley have cincinnati bell - so zoomtown is a possibility - adelphia flat out sucks.. a few of my neighbors have the powerlink service and it is awfull.. always down and having latency issues - the good news is adelphia was bought by TW - and with a little luck TW should be switched over within the year - acording to ICRC.

jim

I'm waiting for TiVo to release a HD-TiVo that works with cable. At that point I will dump my Time Warner DVR and probably transfer my TiVo lifetime subscription to the new HD-TiVo.

Are you sure they will transfer your subscriptin like that. Dont think it will be a good business move to let people do that, after all have they added the commercials when your FF? If they did then why not come up with a whole new subscription model with bigger $$ to offset their costs.

Either way..., I got me an HTPC fro HD stuff. :)

dimitriz - what part of maineville? I live near the 22/3 and 48 intersection (off of Willow Pond) - as long as you are "south or west" of SR 48 - you will most likley have cincinnati bell - so zoomtown is a possibility - adelphia flat out sucks.. a few of my neighbors have the powerlink service and it is awfull.. always down and having latency issues - the good news is adelphia was bought by TW - and with a little luck TW should be switched over within the year - acording to ICRC.

jim

Very near to you, lol... about a mile away at the "Village on the Green"
I already checked with them and they have Adelphia.... so I am going to get Internet from them and use OTA for HD... maybe a sattelite.
Can a drag a cable from your house? lol.

Are you sure they will transfer your subscriptin like that.
It looks like I have a one time option of transfering my subscription. I don't think they are offering it to everyone and they may not be offering it forever.

-Early Adopter

It looks like I have a one time option of transfering my subscription. I don't think they are offering it to everyone and they may not be offering it forever.

-Early Adopter

Thats cool. I still cannot belive that neither TiVo nor Replay have any announcements of HD units. That's why I got HTPC...,so hopefully my 1T of HD space can keep up though. :)

Now that's not true. Here is a site that gives you download rates based on a file transfer. If this does not give you something close to the advertised rate you should contact your ISP. Yes latency may be an issue with cable, but that is something that I haven't tested.

Sorry, go take some networking classes and you will learn that those tests tell you how fat your pipe is, not how fast.

You are both correct in your statements, it's just that you're looking at it from different perspectives. Bubster is correct in equating speed with low latency and packet loss, which is critical for gaming. Most people that don't game are more interested in downloading huge files at record speeds. Cable almost always has the edge there.

Hopefully, this doesn't turn into a battle that's way off-topic.

Hopefully, this doesn't turn into a battle that's way off-topic.

agrees

I'm waiting for TiVo to release a HD-TiVo that works with cable. At that point I will dump my Time Warner DVR and probably transfer my TiVo lifetime subscription to the new HD-TiVo.

I am a HUGE TiVo fan, but I gotta tell 'ya, the TW Hi-Def DVR is great. I miss some of the polish of the TiVo interface, but I doubt the price point will make sense for me to go back.

I have been pretty happy with the whole TW package (much to my surprise and minus RR). I was planning giving D* a spin this football season, but with the rumoured(?) increase in the NFL package, and my experience with the DVR et. al. I may just stay.

I hate to tell you this Bubster - but whatever networking test you want to employ - zoomtown is going to be on the losing end when matched up against road runner. Unless you are in one of the zoomtown test markets where they are upgrading their lines.

I am a HUGE TiVo fan, but I gotta tell 'ya, the TW Hi-Def DVR is great. I miss some of the polish of the TiVo interface, but I doubt the price point will make sense for me to go back.
I couldn't agree more. I've switched from three TiVos in the house to a TW SA 8300HD and couldn't be happier. Until recently I recommended TiVo to all my friends but I've really been impressed with this new DVR. With the Passport software that TW uses here it has almost all of the features of my TiVos, but adds HD and dual tuners. The interface is a little lacking, but not nearly enough to convince me to switch back.

I couldn't agree more. I've switched from three TiVos in the house to a TW SA 8300HD and couldn't be happier. Until recently I recommended TiVo to all my friends but I've really been impressed with this new DVR. With the Passport software that TW uses here it has almost all of the features of my TiVos, but adds HD and dual tuners. The interface is a little lacking, but not nearly enough to convince me to switch back.
Except that the TW DVR does not have any of the networking capabilities for pictures and mp3s that the TiVo series 2 does. It also does not have TiVoToGo or remote scheduling. I also REALLY prefer my TiVo for non HD recordings.

Except that the TW DVR does not have any of the networking capabilities for pictures and mp3s that the TiVo series 2 does. It also does not have TiVoToGo or remote scheduling. I also REALLY prefer my TiVo for non HD recordings.
I never really used those features (except remote scheduling), so they never factored into my decision. If those are important to you, then TiVo is definitely the way to go.

Very near to you, lol... about a mile away at the "Village on the Green"
I already checked with them and they have Adelphia.... so I am going to get Internet from them and use OTA for HD... maybe a sattelite.
Can a drag a cable from your house? lol.


I live in Maineville and have powerlink from Adelphia. I was concerned how it would work at first because I had heard about the quality level of Adelphia. I have had it for 6 months now and have had no problems. I have been happy with it. I don't have their cable service though(I use Direct tv).

I live in Maineville and have powerlink from Adelphia. I was concerned how it would work at first because I had heard about the quality level of Adelphia. I have had it for 6 months now and have had no problems. I have been happy with it. I don't have their cable service though(I use Direct tv).


Cool., that is exactly what I am going to do whenever my house will get built.
But speaking of Adelphia... our receptionist at work had so much trouble with them. They blew her off for like 3 installs, so she filed a complaint with everybody! Even the president of Adelphia called her at work the other day, lol. So if they give me any trouble I'll just sent her to do some damage. :)

I wonder if they have HD in Mainevilla and whether they send locals via QAM unencrypted. Otherwise I'll have to get a tall antenna on my short roof. lol

marmup - what subdivision? most in my subdivision that I have talked to hate it! lol

dimitriz - who is building your house?

marmup - what subdivision? most in my subdivision that I have talked to hate it! lol

dimitriz - who is building your house?

Invenress
http://www.invernesshomesohio.com/

My last one was Drees..., and never again!

Wow, does WCPO-Dt look like Sh!t or what! The NBA game looks so bad, its hurting my eyes. I thought football had 'jaggies' really bad, basketball is about 100X worse! I am about to get out the camera and email everyone at the station the images, mainly Bill Fee, to show him how bad his station looks.

Well 'The Tube' hasn't really affected any Fox HD, but I haven't watched a whole lot. Need to pump up the volume on 'The Tube'.

Would like to see WKRC-DT drop the weather radar, not really needed, wasting bandwidth.

Still waiting to see when/what channel WBQC will go digital, I would really like to have this station go digital, because I like some of the shows UPN is putting out, much better than NBC at least. :( :D

I will write some more letters to WCPO and WXIX until the problems are fixed, WXIX is now pretty much ignoring me! They say the PSIP generator has been reset, but nothing changes. WDTN says my receiver is too old, but I used to get their PSIP before they switched to the .03, .04 channels.

Junk

WXIX is 720p, correct? Couldn't they allocate a bit more bandwidth to "The Tube" without degrading the HD channel? I love The Tube but the lack of frequency range in the audio is even worse to me than the pixellated, blurry video. The audio doesn't even sound as good as an FM radio station.

Paul,

I agree about "The Tube" audio, although the MPEG2 compression artifacts sometimes to the point you can't even recoginze the performers bothers me almost just as much.

Also, for example given the excellent SD quality from KET1+2 when KET/WCVN-DT is running PBS HD on KET4, you'd think WXIX-DT could squeeze at least a little better quality out of "The tube" without degrading 19.1(29.3 w/o PSIP).

Unless they do something really "drastic"(such as decoding the Fox stream+then reencoding it locally - If that's even possible, I'm assuming Fox wouldn't like that),otherwise the way FOX digital/HD works, I don't think they really CAN degrade the quality of FOX programming.

Engineers at Fox affiliates that post on AVS have said Fox sends a Max 15mb/s for FOX HD via the splicer, so, one would think (during Fox HD at least) they should be able to squeeze better audio and video quality for "The Tube" out of the 2.5~3mb/s or so (assuming about 1mb/s for PSIP/meta data/audio for 19.1 etc) that should be left over ...

Then again, via the Fox splicer system, even though the stream for Fox programming is "spliced in" without a need for a local encoder, WXIX-DT local/Syndicated programming must use WXIX-DT's encoder, and it's hard to say depending on how they have things set up(and how "good" their encoder is) whether or not more bits for "the tube" would have a "negative" effect on WXIX-DT local/syndicated programming on 19.1 (and especially so next year if they do any more UC games/etc. in HD).

Another thing too however -- Did you notice that back when WRGT-DT used to multicast a SD subchannel, it often pretty much looked just as bad as the Tube on WXIX does?

But, In WRGT's case especially when FOX HD(such as during lots of action/fast movement/camera panning/etc during a NFL football game) was likely using a lot of "bits"(15mb/s max I assume) -- It looked like what would happen with a stat mux setup for HD to get priority -- Which is exactly what looks like is happening on WCET-DT on 48.2+48.3 when 48.1 is airing HD during "bandwidth demanding" portions of programming ... It doesn't quite seem to be happening that way on "The Tube' though ... It's the "bandwidth demanding" portions of the Videos that seem to be the cause of the intolerable compression artifacts ... Like they are allocating a Max of only about 1~1.25Mb/s to the thing ...

Again, who knows but I'd think they should have enough "bits" for a higher quality "Tube" ... .. Maybe they just need to work on it(I'm not holding my breath for that), or, Maybe the SD encoder they are using isn't so good, or, who knows maybe they are reserving another portion of their bandwidth(or are already using it) or planning on using a slice of their bandwidth for some other purpose as well(such as something like USDTV/datacasting/etc) ...

Gave the WCPO newsroom a call last night during the SA-Detroit ballgame and, although she was quite polite, stated she couldn't do anything about the quality of the broadcast, and that I needed to call their engineering dept - as the Nitewatchman stated. Just gave them a call and spoke to someone in engineering.

The gentleman I spoke to was well aware of the current issue with their football and basketball broadcasts. He even quoted the "jaggies" term that everyone has been mentioning. The analogy that hit me last night when watching the game was the old barbershop pole, with the twisting peppermint stick..but I digress.

Long story short, the problem is with a Motorola encoder that is in need of a software upgrade, that he stated was tentatively scheduled for 2nd/3rd week of July. It's an expensive fix that got caught up in the budget process, and with a best effort to get fixed in July, he stated will definitely be fixed by this fall before the new lineup comes out.

This encoder software patch is required to address the 720p transmission format that is now being used since their move to the new facility. He stated that before the move to the new facility their transmission was 1080i format. When they moved to the new location they started transmitting in 720p, and it was at this time that this problem surfaced. He stated that neither he nor Motorola was aware this would happen and that it was going to require a software upgrade to fix.

Nice gentleman and aware of the problem and stated they're trying to get this issue addressed. Let's keep the fingers crossed -

great news.. although I for one will believe it when I see it!! At least they are finally listening to us!! - even though the fix was supposed to happen back in april :) But I can understand budget issues!

who did you talk to? Tom Talley?

thanks
jim

imverness builds a nice home - I know several of the people over there.. much better than drees :) - you will be impressed

you may need a stonger antenna as you have lots of trees surrounding the site - plus you are at a little lower elevation then me


Invenress
http://www.invernesshomesohio.com/

My last one was Drees..., and never again!

who did you talk to? Tom Talley?

thanks
jim


that's the guy -

Originally posted by hpm123

Long story short, the problem is with a Motorola encoder that is in need of a software upgrade, that he stated was tentatively scheduled for 2nd/3rd week of July. It's an expensive fix that got caught up in the budget process, and with a best effort to get fixed in July, he stated will definitely be fixed by this fall before the new lineup comes out.

This encoder software patch is required to address the 720p transmission format that is now being used since their move to the new facility. He stated that before the move to the new facility their transmission was 1080i format. When they moved to the new location they started transmitting in 720p, and it was at this time that this problem surfaced. He stated that neither he nor Motorola was aware this would happen and that it was going to require a software upgrade to fix.


Thanks for the info HPM, however I've been through all this with them, and, unless they were being something less than honest on previous occasions, I don't see how some of that info could be accurate.

According to my observations as well as what they have told me in the past, WCPO-DT has been sending 720p since spring 2003, well before the studio move. There was no "jaggies" problem from them until summer 2004, after the studio move.

Now, it is true that prior to Spring 2003, WCPO-DT transcoded("upconverted" or "side converted) 720p from ABC to 1080i for broadcast.

So, the encoder was working just fine, and sending no "jaggies" all the time they were sending 720p between Spring 2003 and Summer 2004, Including during MNF HD football 03-04 season.

Again, as has been pointed out in this very thread by Dr1394, a true blue "MPEG2 Expert" who analyzed WCPO-DT's Datastream ... Since this problem began occuring, During ABC HD, 1280x360 "unique" pixels(1280x360 is the "effective" resolution -- Hence the staircase pattern - I.e. "jaggies") is all we get from them, instead of the 1280x720 that should be occuring. Their Encoder is sending 720p, but "something" in the signal chain for ABC HD (meaning between (and or including) the Sat receiver for ABC HD to the encoder) is "downsampling" to 1280x360 ..

So, If the encoder software patch "works", that would seem to suggest that the patch(or some other method to fix this problem) had been applied in the past, but was "lost" somehow during the studio move ... WCPO's director of Engineering(Joe Martinelli -- whom was at WKRC but began working at WCPO around the beginnging of 2003 or late 2002) had told me that the software upgrade from Motorola was happening in April, and asked me to contact him in early May to see if I saw a difference. I did contact him, and told them It wasn't fixed, however, at that point he gave me the same date for the "upgrade" as you received.

BTW, He (their DOE) also told me that late this summer they are also getting equipment upgrades from ABC. IF the problem instead is actually occuring because of a "bug" or misconfigured Sat receiver/etc, or something similair then that is my best hope that the problem will be fixed.

In any event, again -- regardless of what actually really is causing the problem, as I have attempted to communicate to WCPO Engineers -- I did not see any indication of This issue occuring before the studio move, including all the time they were sending 720p, with the same encoder, and presumably the SAME equipment(but perhaps they've added some new equipment also?) they were using before the studio move back to spring 2003 ....

-----------------------------------

So, again ... unless they weren't being honest with me previously, and it is really true they did not remove their HD upconverter (720p->108Oi) in Spring 2003 (It was actually quite obvious they did so, as with their weather subchannel, fewer MPEGII compression artifacts were a visable result of them making the switch to 720p in Spring 2003), then, I suspect one or several of the following is occuring. :

WCPO is:

1). Not being completely honest currently.
2.) Maybe they don't KNOW what is really going on, and don't know how to fix it.
3.) Maybe they have actually spent very little time, or effort in actually trying to diagnose+fix the problem.
4.) Maybe they DO know what is going on, but don't want to tell us about it.
5.) Maybe this problem had been "fixed" in the past by the previous engineer at WCPO-DT, and that fix was "lost" during/after the studio move. I only know I've been watching WCPO-DT since 2001, and this problem didn't begin occuring until after their studio move. WCPO-DT has been on Air(with their Motorla/GI encoder) with HD since, I believe the Glenn HD shuttle Launch in 98.
6.) (and regardless, I think this is a high probability) - Since they are getting upgrades from ABC(a engineer at ABC affilaite in CA has posted on AVS that ALL ABC affilaites are getting "HD upgrades" from ABC), it probably doesn't make sense for them to spend a lot of $ on equipment/etc. that might not be necessary/etc. AFTER ABC's upgrades ... this Might explain why they announced they were going to do DD 5.1 for 04-05 season, but we haven't actually got DD 5.1 from them yet ...

------------------------------------------

Normally, I would not do this(as I feel it's a no-no to post private communications), but since my comments concerning the "time frame" concerning when they went to 720p may be in question, Here is a portion of an email I received on 11/18/04 from WCPO's DOE on this issue :

Thanks for the information, Jeff. My predecessor up converted 720 to 1080 to eliminate viewer complaints about no reception at all in some sets. 2 years ago I began assessing the situation and I converted to the native format 6 months later. It is cleaner and I had to prepare and buy all the 720P equipment for the new facility.

Joe Martinelli
Director of Engineering
WCPO-TV WCPO-DT
1720 Gilbert Avenue
Cincinnati, Ohio 45202

-------------------------

BTW, He (their DOE) also told me that late this summer they are also getting equipment upgrades from ABC. IF the problem instead is actually occuring because of a "bug" or misconfigured Sat receiver/etc, or something similair then that is my best hope that the problem will be fixed.

Well, I'm trying to recall my earlier conversation with WCPO and believe he said the encoders they are using are getting rather dated, and that they will be upgrading their encoder line to new models. He did say with certainty that it would be fixed before the new fall lineup, so this may dovetail with what their DOE stated to you regarding the equipment upgrades. Don't hold me to that as I really can't recall with certainty if he stated that there is an encoder upgrade coming down the pike, but he did state that the software patch cost, as being charged by Motorola, was significant. So they may well be waiting for the ABC upgrade - not sure. All other points I made earlier regarding the 720p vs. 1080i transmission format, pre vs. post move, are stated accurately, per my conversation with WCPO today.

Can't help you on the mechanics of how these bits/bytes get down the line to my settop box, so your argument may well be valid on what dr1394 was seeing with the analyzer.

I sent the gentleman I spoke to the URL of this thread as a way of keeping in touch with what the endusers are experiencing with their service, so hopefully he may feel inclined to comment on what's going on. It seems to be quite common for affiliate engineers to contribute to these community discussions...and we seem to be a fairly civil lot here, so maybe we can entice this gentleman to join the discussion :)

...and we seem to be a fairly civil lot here, so maybe we can entice this gentleman to join the discussion :)

Civil lot, unless the discussion involves insertion of weather bugs, or DSL vs. cable. :rolleyes:

Civil lot, unless the discussion involves insertion of weather bugs, or DSL vs. cable. :rolleyes:

yes, sans those 2 discussion points, things are fairly civil around here

:)

imverness builds a nice home - I know several of the people over there.. much better than drees :) - you will be impressed

you may need a stonger antenna as you have lots of trees surrounding the site - plus you are at a little lower elevation then me

Yeah, I found them to be much better quality! I sold my drees home a year after I built it. Lucky me the price on it went up so I got back what I put in it. :)

I am going to literaly start living in my new house as soon as frame will go up.
Way to many projects that I dont want to pay arm and leg for with their hometheater install guys. Going to put a 7.1 in family/living room and even add wiring for 5.1 in Master Bedroom. Not to mention run a Gigabit network throughout the house. :)
Just wish I knew anything about RG6 to run it....... might just buy a cable a do the runs, only put blank plates and have cable guy do the ends.

Anyone know if RG6 would be a good choice or something esle will be better?
What if I get a sattelite should I bring 2 or 3 (2 for sat +1 for OTA) cable runs in from outside and do 2 runs to every room in the house?
Ehh, desigions desigions....

Thanks

Dimitriz..

RG-6, certainly. 2 runs to every room wouldn't be a bad idea. I'd do a CAT-5 run, too. You'll use two RG-6 lines whether it's DirecTV (needs two runs) or, say one cable and one OTA (for example, if the cable company doesn't carry all of the locals in HD).

I'm starting with an empty house and unfinished basement, so I'm adding as much of that as I can before the carpet is finished and we start work on the basement. If you know satellite is a possibility, run a bundle of four RG-6 lines to where you'll put the dish. Depending on the sat service, you might need fewer, but you shouldn't need more.

And doing cable ends is easier than you think. Lowes sells a little stripper that's really good and a crimper that's adequate, but cheaper than the pro gear. Buy the economy pack of RG-6 F connectors and you're off to the races. Practice once with a short strip of cable and you'll be a pro in no time.

Well, I'm trying to recall my earlier conversation with WCPO and believe he said the encoders they are using are getting rather dated, and that they will be upgrading their encoder line to new models.


As far as new encoder goes, their DOE has told me a couple of times he was trying to get approval/etc. for a new, better encoder.

I don't see however how a newer, more efficent encoder could have much of anything to do with the "jaggies" issue. Their encoder worked just fine at 1080i AND at 720p up until after their studio move.

Older encoders, such as the encoder WCPO-DT is using can "do HD" via MPEG2 with as much "detail" as is the case with newer encoders. And, professional broadcast equipment is not like "consumer" equipment -- They design the stuff to be "bombproof"(yeah right) and to last for many years. As I understand it, The main improvment in encoders has more to do with efficiency, and being able to utilize less bandwidth ....

I can't really go into it much, but I have heard that there are some certian MPEG2 macroblock structure "issues" with some GI(motorola) encoders, but I MUST point out again that the "jaggies" issue just was not there from WCPO-DT prior to their studio move, both when they were sending 1080i, AND when they were sending 720p from the OLD studio location between Spring 2003 and summer 2004.

As for cost and the "budget" ... Also, when WCPO-DT got their encoder, HD/MPEG2 encoders were 6(maybe even 7) figure items ...Just imagine how much money they spent serving just a few of us "early adopters" for many years ... It's only been in the last couple of years that the number of HD viewers(probably mainly via TW cable) has begun to start to get into significant numbers ... Of course, also, HD encoders are MUCH less expensive now(I think I read they are in the 5 figure range these days) than they were for the early HD stations. WCPO-DT/WKRC-DT being among the very first stations in the U.S. on air in U.S. with HD capability. WLWT-DT was on the air with digital earlier(in feb 98), and was truly among the very, very first DTV stations to put a signal on air, but was SD only until Early 2002.

Well, I'm trying to recall my earlier conversation with WCPO and believe he said the He did say with certainty that it would be fixed before the new fall lineup, so this may dovetail with what their DOE stated to you regarding the equipment upgrades.


I believe I have posted in this thread several times that their DOE has told me(twice in fact) that they fully expect their signal to be "pristine" by the time Fall 05 season rolls around, so I don't think there is anything here that "dovetails".

He has also said they are still "very busy" with other tasks related to the studio move ... I took that to mean tasks involving production, and probably mostly as important(or more) to the analog station as the digital ...

Also, again, he did tell me back in Jan/feb that an encoder upgrade from Motorola(he specifically said motorola people were coming in april to calibrate+perform "upgrades" to the encoder) was scheduled to occur in April, but when I contacted him in May as he had asked, he seemed to be saying that was pushed back until late summer -- or perhaps he meant(even though he didn't specifically say so) Motorola had been there in april and at that point decided the software upgrade you refer to was needed, and that's what was happening with their encoder in late summer.

Late summer, which is also around the time he said the upgrades from ABC should be occuring. The encoder is a "local station" item, items such as the HD sat receiver to get the ABC HD feed to the station are taken care of by ABC. So, I/we are of course both talking about 2 different things here(ABC upgrades, upgrades for encoder from Motorola), and I was not in any way saying otherwise.

Oh ... Tom Talley is their Chief Engineer(CE), I believe. I first had sent an email to Tom on this issue in Nov 04, but it was Joe, Their DOE(Director of Engineering) who responded to it.


All other points regarding the 720p vs. 1080i format, pre vs. post move, are stated accurately, per my conversation.


Oh, I understand that you are relaying his comments from your phone conversation "accurately", but what is not accurate about it is that WCPO-DT did not "wait" to begin sending 720p until after their studio move(which occured Summer 2004). As per my last post, in which I posted comments from WCPO's Engineer confirming this, WCPO-DT switched from 1080i to 720p in Spring 2003, not after their studio move in summer 2004.

Maybe it is just some sort of misunderstanding going on, and whatever be the case, EVERYONE makes mistakes, personally, I have no problem whatsoever when mistakes I might make(or post) are corrected -- The point(IMO anyway) is not to try to expose such mistakes in a "I told you so" manner, but to examine the issue and provide input/details which will HOPEFULLY allow them to accurately diagnose+fix the problem .. Which is something that should be mutually benefical for both the station AND viewers ...


Can't help you on the mechanics of how these bits/bytes get down the line to my settop box, so your argument may well be valid.


As for how the bits/bytes get to your box, that really isn't important in this case I don't think, what is important is that the MPEG2(HD video) datastream WCPO-DT's encoder sends out(to everyone) has been analyzed by an expert with a "reference" MPEG2 software decoder, and while it is being sent as 720p format(1280x720p), during ABC HD from WCPO-DT, only 1280x360 "unique" pixel data per frame of the 1280x720 which ABC is SENDING is in WCPO-DT's datastream ...

The "missing" unique pixel data making up the rest of the 1280x720 is being "filled in"(but not with the unique pixels that are present in ABC HD feed), somewhat much as a line doubler/upconverter on the users end would do with NTSC SD to upconvert to say, 1080i ... This is what I mean when I say something in the ABC HD signal chain at WCPO is "downsampling" to 1280x360 ....

And, I personally don't suspect it is the encoder itself that is at fault(again, unless a previous fix had been applied which was "lost" during the studio move), as WCPO-DT's motorola encoder never had that problem(even when it was sending 720p during ABC HD from their Old studio location between Spring 2003 and Summer 2004) prior to last summer ....

Also, I'm not here to "argue" about it .... It's not an "arguement" per se, I'm only posting the pertinent info/facts I have on the situation, as well as the way I interpet it .... why am I doing this? Because I believe accurate information is important, especially if you want to understand the sitaution, and, if you want to know, or try to get an idea of what might actually be going on.

I do recognize, that It is sometimes difficult for engineers to "communicate" with viewers(and that they are doing so at all is a blessing) on techincal issues, as they often assume(as is sometimes necessary) that the viewer has little "accurate" knowledge of such matters. Therefore it is sometimes necessary for them to try to "explain" things in "plain english" -- which sometimes may involve some "inaccuracies" ... However, I don't know if that is entirely the "issue" in this case and I also think station personel should do their best to provide honest, and accurate information on such issues ......

So, I think what is really going on(and communicating what is going on accurately to viewers) may be a "sticky situation" for them, and it's a bit sticky for me as well to comment on it as I personally want nothing more than to see their efforts succeed. And, up until the jaggies started being a problem in late summer 2004, IMO they were really among the very best stations in the area as far as HD quality and providing all the ABC HD programming ....

I suspect that either they truly don't know/understand what is really going on yet, OR I expect/have my suspisions that the real answer may actually be that they just don't want to admit that 1280x360 "effective" resolution(1280x360 "unique" pixel data) is all they are currently sending during ABC HD until(hopefully anyway) they get their "upgrades" later this year .. That is NOT True HD, and a case COULD be made that it is also not even as good as analog(well, it just plain isn't during events such as the HD hoops which made the issue painfully apparent) .... Per FCC rules, a station MUST provide at least one service on their digital station which is at least equivilent in quality to the analog station ... Now -- someone might be able to argue sucessfully that, when the main channel is airing ABC HD,(note that this isn't an issue with their encoder currently at 720p when they are airing local/syndicated programming that is upconverted on their end from SD to 720p before the encoder) the HD isn't up to that standard, but the Weather service probably allways qualifies ...

Now, does any of the "why's and hows" matter, in the sense of a viewer getting "high quality HD" from them? Not really, all that matters in that case is that they get the issue fixed, and most of us probably really don't CARE how they get it fixed, only that they do, and the sooner the better. Personally, until they get it fixed, I exclusively watch WKEF-DT, Dayton for ABC HD. I had only hoped that my (and others who have contacted them) input might help THEM out to diagnose+solve the problem.


I sent the gentleman I spoke to the URL of this thread as a way of keeping in touch with what the endusers are experiencing with their service, so hopefully he may feel inclined to comment on what's going on. It seems to be quite common for affiliate engineers to contribute to these community discussions...and we seem to be a fairly civil lot here, so maybe we can entice this gentleman to join the discussion :)

Yes, I agree. It would be great to have more participation here from engineers at stations in the area -- as is the case with the Norfolk broadcast thread, they could even set up their own rules for posting(so, for instance they aren't bogged down by local HD/DTV issues unrelated to the stations' operations) in a, Say "Southwest Ohio engineering thread" or some such thing ..

We should consider ourselves lucky to have engineers from WKRC+KET(WCVN=DT) who post here ....

BTW, I have also sent URL to this thread(or Dayton) To station engineers in the area in hopes that our posts/converstations here would be of some benefit to them. Keep in mind, however that in many cases company policy "forbids" station personel from posting on such internet forums -- So, hopefully there is "monitoring" of this thread by local station personel going on which we are not aware of ...

Dimitriz..

RG-6, certainly. 2 runs to every room wouldn't be a bad idea. I'd do a CAT-5 run, too. You'll use two RG-6 lines whether it's DirecTV (needs two runs) or, say one cable and one OTA (for example, if the cable company doesn't carry all of the locals in HD).

I'm starting with an empty house and unfinished basement, so I'm adding as much of that as I can before the carpet is finished and we start work on the basement. If you know satellite is a possibility, run a bundle of four RG-6 lines to where you'll put the dish. Depending on the sat service, you might need fewer, but you shouldn't need more.

And doing cable ends is easier than you think. Lowes sells a little stripper that's really good and a crimper that's adequate, but cheaper than the pro gear. Buy the economy pack of RG-6 F connectors and you're off to the races. Practice once with a short strip of cable and you'll be a pro in no time.

Thanks.

I am probably going to run 2 RG-6 cables to each room and 1 or 2 CAT6 cables. Looks like I'll be using those 4 hole wall plates so that way it will be 3 used and 1 for expansion. Cables will go down in every room through a PVC pipe going to the basement. (ranch house) That way I can easily run any cable to any room.
Just wish that satellite wasnt so anal about splitting/joining cable. :)

Dimitriz

Just remember to leave some twine running from each room's box to the basement or attic or wherever you have the cables running from. Always handy if you have to pull something (optical?) you hadn't anticipated during the build. We just did that here. Put in new wall boxes and left twine in place. I have 3 RG-6 going to most locations where there will be HT gear. Haven't pulled Cat-5 (or 6) yet until I know I need it. But, even after the basement's finished out, it'll be an easy thing to do.

Jeff..

You might have posted this and I overlooked it, but a reminder to all that the WCPO-DT jaggies issue isn't present during upconverted programming which runs through the same encoder that spits out the final 720p product. There is a known issue involving ABC HD network sat receivers that we flushed out on the hardward board. I STILL think that's where the issue lies. I certainly hope to be proven wrong. What'll stink is if the software update to the encoder fixes nothing. What's weird is that WCPO-DT's sister station here in Detroit has it right and it looks pretty good. Unfortunately, they run TWO subs.

Dimitriz/Doc,

Also, just an idea from ~Mainville area if Dimitirz is going to use OTA w/outdoor antenna+wants Dayton+Cincinnati stations w/o a rotor, it might be wise to run seperate feeds for seperate Dayton/Cincinnati antennas to those rooms that are getting both(which can be switched between with a A/B switch before receiver) ... Of course, if a rotor is to be used, he'll need to run wire for the rotor controller to whereever the rotor is going to go as well ... Also -- On the splitting/combining thing, while it is often possible to diplex OTA along with the Sat cable, it generally really is not a good idea ... Too much signal loss, and makes it generally not possible to use a mast-mount preamp+send the "proper" power to it along the coax ....

Doc,

Allways good to have some "reinforcement" of my comments, but yeah, I mentioned the jaggies not happening during the Upconverted stuff in one of my probably hard to read parenteheses statements in my last post ;)

I also agree with your take on their Sat receiver/encoder ... Unless it's something concerning some new equipment in the "HD" chain that wasn't there before the studio move ---

We'll probably not ever really know what "fixes" the issue(as someone else said, fingers crossed just that it DOES get fixed), since, from what they've said their Encoder patch AND the upgrades from ABC look to be occuring around the same time ...

Update paragraph 1: Almost forgot -- Also, there are those ABC upgrades to consider .. I recall that Rory at KXTV had told us earlier this year, or late last year in that hardware area thread I think you are referring to that ABC was upgrading all the affiliates with new HD equipment, starting on the west coast and moving east, but I don't recall hearing any details about what all was involved ..

Para 2: Who knows, and this is just wild speculation but for all I know they could even be moving to a system similar to the Fox Splicer setup, where the local encoder is bypassed completely during Network programming(including HD), and the affiliate station doesn't need DD 5.1 capability on local leve in order for DD 5.1 from net to be passed through to our decoders ... Along those lines, I do recall seeing some info around the time Fox was building out the splicer system at the affiliates that said the higher ups at ABC Net Ops were looking closely at what Fox was doing as at the time, they were getting ready to update their HD distribution system ... But, I heard nothing else about it ...

Update 2: Along those same lines -- having heard little about it, I've also been curious concerning how WB HD distirbution and switching to/from net/etc. works. Espeically since WSTR-DT/WBDT-DT began providing WB HD(and DD 5.1) within a week or so of one another back last fall, and I don't think I've seen either station miss ANY WB HD since then ...

-------------------

Anyway -- On another note ... since you haven't been down here to see it(lucky you ;) ... If you thought it looked bad during the HD new year's bowl game parade(Rose parade? for some reason the actual name escapes me at present), and the "press Box" shots during MNF HD football last year, you should have seen it during the last 2 NBA HD games ... Wow, the jaggies on the floor really were ugly with the camera at certian angles .. Very much the most noticable occurance of the "jaggies" I think .... You could also easily see the steps in the aisles of the stands Shimmering like crazy even during shots of the announcers ....

Seeing that I want to watch game 2 tonight I got the antenna from Voom and the Voom box working again. Is there any reason why I can get WHIO and Dayton Fox and PBS stations, but not WDTN and WKEF? It's my understanding that they are all the same distance and same direction from where I live.

Aporter,

No quantifiable reason I can think of off hand, except that RF can be finicky sometimes, perhaps especially so on the higher UHF channels ...

WDTN/WKEF are running reasonably high power levels with non-directional antenna patterns from up as high or higher on the tower as the others, and, if you're getting WPTD-DT(PBS digital - remaps to 16.x) which transmits on RF channel 58, you should be getting WKEF/WDTN digital as well. WDTN-DT is on RF 50 - remap to 2.x, WKEF-DT on RF 51 - remaps to 22.1. All the Dayton towers are on the same antenna farm, a few miles SW of Downtown Dayton - On a hill just west of I-75.

If you are getting Dayton Fox digital(WRGT-DT which is at low power - 15.3KW ERP, and with a directiional antenna pattern that doesn't favor the South - and also of course right next to 1st adjacent channel WXIX-DT), One would think you should be getting all 6 Dayton digitals. WBDT-DT (WB HD Dayton - RF 18 - remap to 26.1) being the other one ... The predicted coverage areas for most of Dayton Stations reach down to about Florence, KY, except for WBDT-DT+WRGT-DT whose 41dbu contour should "stop" a few miles N of Ohio river

I don't know about earlier, but I just checked and all the dayton digitals are currently on the air.

I'm trying to watch WCPO DT for the NBA playoffs and it's unwatchable. in fact, all of my digital channels (100 to 1299) are totally pixelated and broken up. It looks like there is not enough bandwidth (too many PPV's or RR use?) This happen about 2 weeks ago, too.

I'm in Deerfield Township.

Anyone else having the problem?

I'm trying to watch WCPO DT for the NBA playoffs and it's unwatchable. in fact, all of my digital channels (100 to 1299) are totally pixelated and broken up. It looks like there is not enough bandwidth (too many PPV's or RR use?) This happen about 2 weeks ago, too.

I'm in Deerfield Township.

Anyone else having the problem?


Wait a minute here.......At the time of this post over 1 1/2 inch of rain and a few big thunderstorms were rolling in from the south moving toward the north. Strong winds were also in the mix.

With all of that weather moving thru the area It is possible that was the MAJOR FACTOR to poor reception. :eek: :eek:

I didn't have any reception problems last night but I use an antenna for my locals.

Sorry but I guess don't understand cable technology.

Why would weather effect cable?

I would guess a cable line is getting wet from the rain, which is messing with the digital channels, and the analogs too. I think my phone is doing the same thing, when it rains, I lose my zoomtown connection.

new year's bowl game parade(Rose parade? for some reason the actual name escapes me at present)

The name you are searching for is the Tournament of Roses Parade. It was beautiful on Discovery HD though :)!

The name you are searching for is the Tournament of Roses Parade.

That's it, thanks ...

Hi, anybody on here have experience in pulling HD content OTA in Lebanon? If so can you post your setup. I'm getting ready to jump into HD and would like to know what type of antenna I might need. Thanks

I'm in Middletown and get good reception over here with a Radio Shack antenna. My neighbor has no problems either with a smaller Radio Shack antenna. They have a good selection and they are usually in stock. You could also purchase 2 antennas and have one aimed towards Dayton and the other towards Cincinnati. Radio Shack also sells a remote switcher to switch between the 2 antennas. Check out my profile for my setup.

Scott thanks for that reply, I'm really only interested in one set of stations (preferably cinci) would that winegaurd work as a side of the house mount? I would like to mount it where its not sticking up off the roof. Do they make a good antenna with a slim form factor that could mount on the side?

Checking antenna web it says I need a medium directional with preamp (blue) is there a good antenna with a slim form factor that could mount to the southwest side of my house?? Thanks for your help.

I don't have any personal experience with side-mount antennas. I suppose the Winegard would work if it was up high enough on a gable end of the house and you don't have any terrain issues (buildings/hills etc.) in the way. My Winegard works pretty good for the Cinci channels except I can't receive 64-1. I've got mine up on a 5 foot pole though, and mounted on the peak of my roof.

bleh - how many weather subchannels do we need? Maybe WLWT-DT could change their to be a all-traffic subchannel, show artmis cams and scroll conditions or something. I much prefer WCPO-DT's subchannel for the ever-present RADAR.

YA! Another F-ing weather channel! Wow, now when a tornado is coming toward my home, I will stay upstairs to watch the weather subchannels instead of going to the basement where I don't have a digital tuner. WLWT seems to have enough bandwidth to the main channel, the weather channel doesn't really have any break ups. If the stations can get away with a subchannel, its ok, but if HD is bad, then the subchannel should go. WXIX could put more bandwidth on "The Tube", WKRC doesn't need the radar and I am seeing Macro blocking, WCPO-DT has the best local weather subchannel, WLWT has good locations, covers the whole country. If the Weather Channel would just show weather, instead of doing programming, I think none of this would be happening.

WKRC-DT has a weather sub channel? My tuner doesn't pick it up. Maybe I need to rescan... then again, maybe I don't!

I would run 4 to each room and 6 in from the outside to the multiswitch location - why 4 and 6? You never know what the future holds .. plus both my neighbor and I had or rg-6 runs to the master bedroom go bad.. so the more the merrier! 6 to the outside keeps you Directv superdish proof and if it all runs to one location should you ever switch to cable you would be ok! just my $.02 :)

jim



I am probably going to run 2 RG-6 cables to each room and 1 or 2 CAT6 cables. Looks like I'll be using those 4 hole wall plates so that way it will be 3 used and 1 for expansion. Cables will go down in every room through a PVC pipe going to the basement. (ranch house) That way I can easily run any cable to any room.
Just wish that satellite wasnt so anal about splitting/joining cable. :)

Well, after watching Weather Plus a little more, I kinda like it better than WCPO's WeatherTracker. Weather Plus has the feel of the Weather Channel, WCPO still has the better radar, but WLWT has some other features that I like.

I guess they are both ok by me. An easy way to quickly check the forcast. For all this effort to add Weather multicasts, I'm suprised.that there is no mention of them on the stations websites.

I did a re-scan to add WeatherPLus on 5-2 and noticed that WB64 is coming in on both 64-1 and 33-3. I'm wondering if it's my reciever or if they are getting ready to multicast. Anyone have any idea?

Digital only,

33 is the actual RF channel WSTR transmits on. x-3 is the MPEG program stream, since stations changed their PID's in Jan/Feb to comply with FCC rules, in most cases x-3 is the first program stream(minor channel #) which will show up on receivers not using PSIP remapping.

33-3 is remapped to 64.1 virtual channel via PSIP on most receivers, some receivers will allways either let you tune to the actual RF channel or the PSIP remapped channel to tune in the station, some receivers will only let you use the PSIP remapped channe for tuning, those receivers require a "scan" process to add channels/etc.

If for instance both 33-3+64-1 are there all the time when you "surf" through the channels, I don't think I've heard of that before ... May be a percularity with your receiver/and or WSTR-DT's current PSIP implementation -- perhaps it wasn't getting a solid signal at the time of the rescan and got "confused? ...

BTW, the actual RF channels the stations transmit on and the PSIP remapped Virtual channels(the major Channel #'s, which of course correspond to the analog station's actual RF channel) for The Cincinnati stations are listed in first post of this thread.

Noticed that I had to rescan channel 35 on USDTV receiver(Hisense DB-2010) after WLWT-DT added "Weather Plus" in order to decode anything(5.1 or 5.2) WLWT-DT at all anymore.

Just a heads up in case anyone "lost" WLWT-DT and may need to rescan to see it again.

Just a heads up in case anyone "lost" WLWT-DT and may need to rescan to see it again.



I had to rescan my old Samsung sirt150 last night. My Zenith HDTV receiver did not require a rescan.

My Zenith HDTV receiver did not require a rescan.

Same here with my Zenith(HDV420). Everytime you tune to a station, It checks the station's PSIP and updates the info if the station made any changes - for any RF Channel you have "selected" in it's channel edit list. If you have the RF channel selected(presuming it can get enough signal from the station in the area on that channel), you can channel up/down or tune to PSIP remapped channel(you can still use the RF channel via manual tuning as well).

That's a blessing most of the time, but a curse when a station sends "hosed" PSIP info, since it gets updated everytime you tune to the station ....

If you don't have the channel selected, it doesn't "save" anything, the PSIP remapped Virtual channel is displayed for any channel you might tune to(if there's enough signal there to get a lock on the station), but you can only use manual tuning by RF channel.

If this hasn't been mentioned yet, Time Warner has added the WLWT Weather Plus channel to their line up. No sign of "The Tube" yet.

Thanks Terry. I saw them running a promo where they mentioned Weather Plus was on digital cable.

----------------------------

Noticed WXIX-DT suddenly went off air at 8:24pm EDT ... Which isn't good, as one wouldn't expect they are doing maintenance at this hour ... WXIX analog and WPTO-DT are still on the air, so, obviously at least the tower is still standing and WXIX/WPTO-DT transmitters are still getting power ...

Update: Good news, WXIX-DT is back on air at 11:30pm, not sure how long they've been back up ...

Hi everyone. I was wondering what the OTA HD picture quality was like compared to Time Warner local HD picture quality around the middletown/trenton area.

I bought a house in trenton and am getting a HDTV, and need to know if I should pay extra for the built in tuner. Is the OTA PQ any better than what TWC provides? Is it worth the extra money for the built in tuner?

Thanks!

I tried posting this a couple days ago on cincinnatihdtv.com, and only received one response.

6/21 at 4 am, TW "upgraded" the 8300. Since then I am not getting audio through my HDMI connection. It worked great for the last 4 months or so, now it doesn't work.

Phone support was not helpful, so they sent out a tech. Nice guy, though it took a while to convince him that HDMI sends audio (my TV had an audio in with the HDMI section, I assume for the DVI-HDMI cables).

He tried a new system, it immediately upgraded, and of course did the same thing. I did get to see the diagnostics screen, and it indicated that the HDCP failed, so the HDMI was disabled. I get video through it, but no audio.

So... either I have a bad cable all of a sudden, or the upgrade doesn't work with my TV. Now bear in mind, my TV is this little brand you may have heard of... Sony :rolleyes: . It is a KV-32HS420. Since they don't even have a cable for testing on the truck, we couldn't check it.

I currently have it hooked up through Component, and it works, but i sure would like to use the HDMI, especially since the 2 component inputs normally have my DVD player and XBOX.

My question is, does anyone else have the 8300 hooked up through HDMI. Is it working? What brand TV do you own? I would like to talk to TW with a little info. I do know one other person with a Sony has the same issue, though is connecting digital audio to his system, so not a problem for him.

I do know one other person with a Sony has the same issue, though is connecting digital audio to his system, so not a problem for him.
Sorry I can't help you, but I have a question to you and the rest. There was a problem with the Passport software on the SA8300HD when you connected made a HDMI to HDMI connection that the digital audio dropped from 5.1 to 2.0. The only solution that I have heard of is to use either the component out or a HDMI to DVI connector if you wanted 5.1 surround. Does anyone know if this issue has been solved and you can have 5.1 surround out of the optical digital out while having a HDMI to HDMI connection?

-Thinking that bsherm's problem may be TWC's solution to another issue.

Trying look at the HD DVR thread on the SA 8300 located here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=453804&page=44&pp=30)

It sounds like there is a problem with audio via HDMI

Yes, I have looked at that thread. The kicker to my situation is that it worked fine before they updated on 6/21.

Also, I don't have a 5.1 system, so I have been using basic stereo. Since the upgrade no go. I figured this may be an upgrade issue, so I was curious if any other TW subscribers in Cincy were having the problem.

Interesting theory by Terry that a 5.1 fix may have broke my 2.0 audio link. Not sure what the update fixed (only know what it broke :) )

My box received another update today 6/25 at around 4:00pm. Maybe they realized the problem and fixed it. Are you guys still havin trouble even after today?

My box received another update today 6/25 at around 4:00pm. Maybe they realized the problem and fixed it. Are you guys still havin trouble even after today?
You beat me too it. It was bizarre to watch it update while I was using the TV... That did fix the problem. Nice turnaround... kudos to TW. Now I just have to finish replacing all the "fixes" the tech did to my remote and TV settings. I have a 4:3 HDTV, and he thought I would like a "stretch" on hi-def channels, and I had to go through some steps to get the right settings for my Receiver and DVD that he re-did.

I, however, DON'T want their job... wouldn't you love to deal with all the bizarre setups out there! :eek:

Question for Cincinnati area. I am not able to receive 9-1 or 9-2 at this time. I was able to in the past. Has there been a power reduction for these channels? I have tried a rescan, but still cannot receive the channels. The signal meter indicates a weak signal for only these two channels.

Thanks,

Barry

barrytest,

WCPO-DT is located on channel 10, a VHF channel. If you only have a UHF antenna, it is possible that antenna picked up a good signal from a VHF station, but now the antenna can't bring in enough signal. What you could do is get a VHF antenna, or try putting an amp on your current antenna, this should help bring in WCPO.

barrytest,

WCPO-DT is located on channel 10, a VHF channel. If you only have a UHF antenna, it is possible that antenna picked up a good signal from a VHF station, but now the antenna can't bring in enough signal. What you could do is get a VHF antenna, or try putting an amp on your current antenna, this should help bring in WCPO.
WCPO is comparatively weak for me as well.

Suppose I add a VHF antenna...is it possible to combine the UHF and VHF signals on one coax into my tuner?

Suppose I add a VHF antenna...is it possible to combine the UHF and VHF signals on one coax into my tuner?

Yes, you can use a VHF/UHF joiner such as Channel Master part # CM0549(about $8). CM0549 is low loss(.5db) and provides high isolation between VHF+UHF. Some mast mount preamps(such as CM7777) also have seperate inputs for seperate VHF/UHF antennas.

No problems with WCPO-DT 10 signal up here lately, BTW. PSIP remap to 9.1+9.2 is working fine as well.

Rescanned my channels tonight and cannot find HD signal for WKRC Channel 12, which I used to view on channel 12.1. Any other channel out there to see WKRC on HD?

Kathy,
Try 31 for WKRC-DT.

Barry,

WCPO-DT is booming in up here on the north side of Dayton. WXIX is what I have problems with up here but I think it's more adjacent channel interference from WRGT here locally.

Paul

Yes, you can use a VHF/UHF joiner such as Channel Master part # CM0549(about $8). CM0549 is low loss(.5db) and provides high isolation between VHF+UHF.
I suppose Lowe's is my best option locally? Can't seem to find this part number anywhere...

luebster,

Unfortuently Lowe's won't have it. The last one I got, I picked up at the only distributor of CM products in this area I know that carries CM's full line of stuff -- This place in Dayton:

http://www.wintronic.com/daytonwintronic/index.htm

They had them in stock back in Jan when I picked one up -- but I'd call them first just to make sure - As they sell to antenna installers/etc in other states besides just OH.

You can also get one via online -- such as from here(very bottom of page) :
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/joiners.htm

Radio Shack at least used to have a "all" 75ohm VHF/UHF combiner as well, but I can't seem to find it on their website currently. I think I saw one at meijer as well on their A/V accessories rack that might work. I can't vouch for it's or the RS one's "quality", however.

Many of the VHF/UHF combiner/seperators you'll see at RS, walmart/etc/etc are usually "designed" as band seperators often with a VHF 75 ohm(coax/fconnector) output, UHF 300 ohm(twinlead Output) and 75 ohm VHF/UHF input or something similiar .. --These "could" be used "backwards" in some cases as a VHF/UHF "combiner/joiner" as well --However, I would imagine the isolation between UHF/VHF wouldn't be as good, and the insertion loss would be higher than a CM#0549.

Jeff, thanks for the info. I think I'll try the neighborhood RatShack and/or Meijer first, evaluate the quality, then take advantage of their return policies, if need be.

Then I'll turn to the online suppliers you provided.

Thanks again.

I would use warrenelectronics.com, it is a very good company. I bought many of my antenna parts from them because they had a store in Iowa where I used to live. I believe it is out of the Quad Cities. Another company to check would be Solid Signal, I bought my 4221 from them, 1 day shipping, and it is working great. I have it pointed at Dayton, and my large VHF/UHF combo toward Cincy.

I also have noticed that WKRC-DT picture quality has gone down. I am seeing the focus problem now more than ever. I am seeing it on CSI: mainly, when the scene changes. The focus goes way down, then it builds up again, just like with the basketball and football games. I am also seeing more blocking, I don't know if this because of the radar subchannel. I wish WKRC would drop it and just advertise that they have the only channel that is pure HD, I think this would be much better than watching some radar. I paid to watch HD, not a radar. This goes for all local stations, not just WKRC.

Noticed FCC released a spreadsheet of tentative channel designations for stations first round channel elections. Looks like FCC didn't find any interference conflicts with the Cincinnati stations election choices. Stations which made elections+which they found conflicts didn't get on the tentative channel list.

So, right now it looks like there is a really good chance that after analog shut off, the Cincinnati full service stations will likely all end up on the channels they elected in the first round -- Which are:

WCPO-DT 10 (currently on 10)
WKRC-DT 12 (currently on 31)
WCVN-DT 24 (currently on 24)
WPTO-DT 28 (currently on 28)
WXIX-DT 29 (currently on 29)
WSTR-DT 33 (currently on 33)
WCET-DT 34 (currently on 34)
WKOI-DT 39 (Currently on 39)

This is somewhat more nebulous -- but my best guess is that the Cincinnati Low power stations(currently all analog only) will probably end up something like the following in digital and after analog shut off:

WOTH-LP : 25 (currently on 25)
W61DE : 36 (currently on 61, have a analog cp to move to 36)
WBQC-CA : 38 OR whatever channel the 2nd digital companion channel is they have reported to be looking for once FCC opens it's filing window for this(currently on 38 )

-----------------------

Columbus WBNS-DT(currently on 21) elected their analog channel 10 for after analog shut off -- however, they are not on the tentative channel list, so I assume they got a interference conflict letter from FCC instead ... I'd guess WCPO-DT's service area+election of 10 might have had something to do with that ...

Dayton WKEF-DT(currently on 51) elected their analog 22, and Dayton WRGT-DT(currently on 30) elected their analog 45 -- Neither of those are on the list either, so I presume they received interference conflict notices ... I'm not sure what the problem with WKEF-DT +22 would be, but I'd bet, since WXIN-DT Indy elected to stay on their current DTV channel of 45, that might have something to do with WRGT-DT's channel 45 election not making the tentative list ...

The public notice concerning the tentative channel designations is here:

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-05-1743A1.pdf

An excel spreadsheet with the tentative channel designations(the "attachment 1" mentioned in document at above link) is here:

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-05-1743A2.xls

Junkyarddogg:

Thanks for the reply. I will try the amplifier. On another TV I have a Silver Sensor in the attic and it gets 9-1 and 9-2 just fine. The one I am having trouble with is the SR15 from Antennas Direct. Both of these antennas are UHF only I believe. One difference is the Silver Sensor is located about 15 feet from the SR15. I recall Lowe's or Home Depot carrying an amplifier so I will start there first.

Barry

The cincy stations for the most part seem to be making it through the storms so far today/tonight, except that WCET looks to have a mess on their hands .... They did finally get the analog transmitter out of "black screen" mode just after 11:30pm ...

Lost power here for a few hours tonight, and had to pull out the ol' analog only battery powered TV to watch the News ...

Earlier in the evening/this afternoon there was some nice tropo DX here from up Doc's way .. Was seeing stations from Ontario/Toledo+Detroit areas ...
Noticed WNWO-DT Toledo(a Raycom owned NBC affiliate) is running THREE subchannels - Their main service(NBC HD/etc), "The Tube" AND NBC's WeatherPlus ... I just watched it for a few minutes, but from what I saw WNWO-DT's "Tube" quality is pretty much exactly what we get from WXIX-DT.

Kudos to Howard Ain at WKRC for running a story on DTV transistion(albeit a very abbreviated one concerning surveys of OTA viewers) tonight .... Concerning Kit+Jude's comments after Howard's story, perhaps they should have those 2 manning the phones the next time the analog transmitter goes down for an extended period of time ... ;) ... I think they might be surprised at how many of their viewers are using antennas ....

I saw that too.. Wanted to go correct Kitt on the spot!

I have a SA 8300 HD hooked up to my big screen tv via a DVI adapter. My TV only has a DVI input and this box only an HDMI output so I need this adapter. Anyways - today when I turned on the tv - I received all sorts of strange colors - the tv would blink very fast and the colors would be red or green or go snowy. I have reset the tv and the box and still the same outcome.

I tried hooking the box up to the tv via component and everything works great.

Is this my box going bad, my DVI input on my tv going bad, my cable going bad or maybe even the adapter going bad? Has anyone ever seen this before? I really hope its not my tv input and that a new cable wil fix this. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Could TW of messed something else up with a firmware upgrade?

Thanks,
Tony

any reason why wcpo only showed sd toy story last night?

WKEF-DT Dayton Had "Toy Story" in true HD -- last night --- i.e. jaggie free, 1280x720p "effective" resolution ;) -- At least they did when I checked it before my power went out ..

WCPO-DT probably wasn't using ABC HD feed because they don't have the capability to insert local HD graphics(weather bugs/etc). It's probably still set up as it used to be, with the DT station slaved to master control for the analog, so when they insert weather bugs, it drops to the same SD feed the analog station is using.....

-------------------------------

Speaking of missing HD, I also noticed that WXIX-DT was missing FOX HD feed tonight ... FOX HD for "Cats and Dogs" was fine from WRGT-DT, Fox HD Dayton however ... If they don't already know, I wonder how long it will take them to figure out their HD splicer setup is "on the fritz" ... I did notice that the splicer inserted, default Blue "FOX" bug was present ....

tbenson, from the recent other threads, is it possible the new update has screwed around with the HDMI output? I live in Adelphias system so am not experiencing these problems, even though my cable box was updated a few days ago as well and I have a Motorola box.

Looks to me like bandwidth demanding sections of HD Pepsi 400 could use a few million more bits on WLWT-DT ...

Jeff..

FWIW, it didn't look much better here. And the NBC affiliate here has the latest stat-muxing gear.

Doc

Doc,

Hard to say what's up ... (update : oops sorry I sneezed and hit "submit message button too early, LOL)

It didn't look any better on WDTN-DT, either ... last night vs. 2004 NBC HD Daytona 500 did remind me of 2004 HD Olympics(even on WLWT-DT with No multicasting there were "problems", IMO) as compared to the absolutely beautiful HD PQ from 2002 HD Olympics+WLWT-DT ... (well, except for from that one cam during the early ski-jumping) ...

Don't know what, if any new equipment WLWT-DT put in for WeatherPlus ... I don't see any obvious signs of Stat-mux on WeatherPlus when HD needs more ..

On another note -- along with noticing that they are multicasting both "The Tube"+ "WeatherPlus", I *did* notice on WNWO-DT Toledo when I saw them a few Days ago via tropo that they were putting up graphics for Weather Plus on 24-1, telling viewers to tune to 24-3 for weather info .... I thought that was interesting ...

Nitewatchman,

WLWT has put a WeatherPlus graphic on the screen on analog, but I haven't watched for one on HD programming. My guess is that they can. I am not impressed with NBC HD, even with WeatherPlus. I think WLWT is running WeatherPlus on low bandwidth, because I can see a lot of pixels when anything fast moving is on the screen on 5.2. This is the same for 'The Tube'. I still can't get WXIX engineers to work with me and get my PSIP working. I kinda need it so I can get my DVHS to work the best, otherwise it sometimes forgets to record.

I've seen the WeatherPlus promos on WLWT(including the analog, instructing viewers to tune to TW Cable channel 906 or digital broadcast 5-2/etc.), and maybe they are doing this too and I haven't seen it. This was different than anything I've seen on WLWT-DT. That's not saying WLWT-DT doesn't have the capability to do it. Anyway, what I was talking about from WNWO-DT was on the DTV station, and was just a small bug that popped up during Wimbeldon coverage(SD upconvert) and simply said tune to 24-3 (WNWO-DT's weatherplus channel) for weather info. I'm not sure that would even make much sense to viewers of their analog station.

Screenshot I took(with digital camera - sorry, once again didn't get the focus right therefore there is moire pattern) last week of WNWO-DT's weatherplus attached farther below.

Concerning "Low" bitrates - ATTC, the test center which tested the U.S. digital Television system(ATSC with MPEG2) did tests with various programming and recommended that, in order to not compromise HD PQ during the most bandwidth demanding of programming, with 1080i they said there should be NO multicasting. They also said that 720p could work fine with 1 SD multicast service(i.e. subchannel) Which would typically probably mean about 2.5~3Mb/s for the SD service, and about 15Mb/s for 720p HD service. "The Tube"(Fox at 720p) or "WeatherPlus"(NBC 1080i) may be a using a bit less than 2~2.5Mb/s, but not too much less I wouldn't think. If it was, say only ~1Mb/s I would think it would ALLWAYS be a "blocky" mess.

Total data payload rate available via ATSC 8VSB in a 6MHZ RF chanel(what we use for OTA DTV) is 19.39 Mb/s. That's a fixed rate, which doesn't change. A fixed amount of channel coding and FEC also takes up a good amount of "bandwidth"(something like ~11~12Mb/s if I recall correctly)within the 6MHZ RF channel that is completely "outside" of that 19.39Mb/s payload.

Probably around 1.5mb/s or so of the available payload is allways going to be taken up by at least the primary service's audio stream+PSIP tables. Leaving, at most about 17.5~18Mb/s available for say, a single HD video service -- Which, is JUST ENOUGH for "high quality" at 1920x1080i via MPEG2 during the most bandwidth demanding source material. That's the way it was designed ... to allow for HD AND a robust transmission system.

Note that I said "high quality" pictures ... That still doesn't necessarily mean the absolute "highest quality 1920x1080i pictures" at "all times"(even during the most bandwidth demanding of stuff) possible via MPEG2 ... For the most discerning eyes during the most demanding source material -- with MPEG2 You'd probably need around 30mb/s(or a bit more for that ...) Even at 18Mb/s the compression ratio is already VERY high, which is why you really start seeing more compression artifacts at lower bitrates with 1080i(a bit less -- not a lot -- pixel pushing is needed for 720p, hence with 720p a bit lower bitrate can work before compression artifacts become quite noticable) .. Uncompressed HD is ~1.5Gb/s .....

While I think it would be great if it really were true(as some have said) that with "better encoders" 1920x1080i via MPEG2 could be done without a "reduction" in HD PQ*(at all times, even during the most bandwidth demanding of programming) alongside a SD subchannel with quality full motion video(from the SD sub) : I'll believe it when I see it, and I don't believe have seen it yet, nor do I actually EXPECT to .... But I'd certianly LOVE to be wrong ...

* - That is, HD PQ reduced in SOME way - It also doesn't have to necessarily have to mean higher compression rates -- for example, it's possible(at least MOST decoders should be able to handle this) for them to use non-Table 3/ATSC resolutions encoding at lesser resoltion such as 1280x1080 or 1440x1080, which with less resolution/fewer pixels CAN get away with "lower" bitrates ..... That is what we know as "HD lite" .... Note that this is NOT what WCPO-DT is doing with their 1280x360 "effective" resolution during ABC HD that is causing the "jaggies" -- As 1280x720 "full pixels" IS what is coming out of their encoder - therefore there is no increased bandwidth "efficiency" going on it's just that it is not 1280x720 UNIQUE pixels, only 1280x360(hence the "staircase pattern" - i.e. jaggies) ...

Now HD + a multicast or datacast service with the use of statistical multiplexing(stat mux) could likely be done without reducing 1920x1080i HD PQ(MPEG2) -- with the SD multicast/datacast service using available oppurtunistic bandwidth --- as long as the bitrate for SD multicast service/datacast service ONLY uses the available oppurtunistitic bandwidth. HD, even 1080i HD doesn't need anywhere near "everything available" the vast majority of the time -- What it doesn't "need", when it doesn't need it is available oppurtunistic bandwidth.

In this case of course, the SD multicast(or datacast service) would have to be able to drop to virtually ZERO bitrate usage during those short periods during bandwidth demanding portions of programming when the HD service "needs everything"(and sometimes probably even needs "more" than everything that is available).

With a SD multicast service, This would not only cause "blocking" of course, but complete loss of audio and "freezing up" of the screen as well. Therefore, the multicast/datacasting applications would likely be somewhat limited ...

Stat mux can also be "invisible" to the viewer depending upon how it is set up ... However, I believe it is the case that you can actually see the "effects" of how stat mux works by checking out WCET-DT 48-2 or 48-3 when bandwidth demanding sections of HD source material is running on 48-1 ... For instance, In the oddest places, you'll see the screen go "all blocky" on 48-2+48-3, even during cartoons which should have "low-bandwidth" requirements on 48-3. I believe this is happening because they likely have it set up so HD gets the "priority", and therefore, when HD "needs" more bits, they are allowing the HD service to "Rob" bits from the SD services, even when the SD services actually need more bits .... That's really not the way to do it IMO, but it does likely make the HD look a little better(although still not up to Par with what WCET-DT was doing in Nov 2002-DEc 2002 when they were sending a single, HD service(Mostly PBS HD demo loop at that time) and NO multicasting ...

Anyhow .... As for exactly what is going on with WLWT-DT and/or NBC and WeatherPlus ... Again IMO, It's hard to say what is going on(and maybe that's how they want it to be) ... Again, all I can say is that 1). to my eyes, looks like it could use a few million more "bits" during bandwidth demanding portions of HD programming. And, 2.)that NBC HD coverage of events such as 2002 HD Olympics(HDNet+NBC "partnered" on that one), The triple crown races 2002~2004(I didn't get a chance to look at them "closely" this year), and 2004 Daytona 500 did NOT have the problems with MPEG2 compression artifacts that I noticed during 2004 HD Olympics(including during opening closing ceremonies in comparision to 2002 HD Olympics on NBC -- other winter/summer olympic events may not have been as easy to to an accurate comparision), and last night's race ...

Just noticed that at least currently, Hisense(USDTV) DB-2010 it is not able to properly "handle" WCET-DT's daily PSIP VC changes. With this receiver, it is necessary to do 2 daily "rescans" of RF channel 34(luckily, at least it will let you "scan" a single RF channel rather than having to do a full autoscan) :

#1). At 7pm in order for it to be able to "see"/decode(or show EPG info from EIT/ETT) 48.1+48.2 in the evenings.

#2). Sometime during the day in order for it to be able to "see/Decode(or show EPG info) for 48.4 and 48.5.

This issue has never been a problem for my RCA DTC-100, or Zenith HDV420.

I do wonder how many other receiver models are having this issue, I wouldn't be surprised at all if there are quite a few folks out there who are only seeing either 48.3~48.5, or 48.1~48.3 depending upon when they actually last performed a "auto channel scan" ......

Anyhow, I sent WCET-DT a note about it.

----------------------------------

Update: Speaking of WCET-DT - Anyone had an7y DD 5.1 from them lately? I haven't watched it much, but haven't noticed any DD 5.1 from them in quite a while, and also notice that "Captiol 4th" is DD 2.0 on 48.1, but IS DD 5.1 from KET4/WCVN-DT 54.4 ...

I have been reading the most recent posts. Boy, most of you guys must have tons of extra spare time to write such minute details about a stupid weather channels! Are you guys actually trying to compare picture quality of a weather / radar channel? Jeees!

Its not comparing the picture quality of the weather channels, its comparing how the HD looks like on the main channel. When stations like WLWT, WKRC add weather channels, it makes their HD look like sh!t. It pretty much means they could careless about HD and are more focused on showing complete nonsense.

Its not comparing the picture quality of the weather channels, its comparing how the HD looks like on the main channel. When stations like WLWT, WKRC add weather channels, it makes their HD look like sh!t. It pretty much means they could careless about HD and are more focused on showing complete nonsense.

Last time I referred to weather related information as "complete nonsense" - good ol nightwatchman went on one of his tangents.

Tony

I think it should be pretty easy for anyone with the reading skills of a 10 year old to sort out what is the "complete nonsense" in this thread ....

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Noticed WKRC-DT is currently running 480i SD simulcast of analog on 12-2.

If they can work it out(And I'm not too optimistic considering the $ involved and that it didn't happen last year) to do a HD production of WEBN fireworks this year, I hope they can drop the multicast "tests" by then .... Their 2002 HD fireworks production was especially excellent, IMO -- Except for the compression artifacts with "webhopper" using 4Mb/s ....

I will give WKRC credit for doing the fireworks in past years in HD, they looked pretty good. All I am saying is, why the need to take away bandwidth?

I would rather leave insults off of the forum. But a forum is somewhere for discussion, so it is what it is.

weasel - can you shed any light on the local 12 fireworks in hd? why did you drop the radar loop?

Last years fireworks were broadcast in SD, they got cheap on us after a few years of doing theim in HD.

I will give WKRC credit for doing the fireworks in past years in HD, they looked pretty good. All I am saying is, why the need to take away bandwidth?

I would rather leave insults off of the forum. But a forum is somewhere for discussion, so it is what it is.


Damn. Cincy is turning into multicast hell fast. :eek:

Hey everybody,

I am moving into a new house in Burlington, KY (just west of the airport), and I figure this would be a good time to make the plunge into HDTV.

I'd like to keep the cost as low as possible, so I'm going out to buy a DLP HDTV, and then try to use OTA programming along with an HTPC to record it.

My question is, what antennas are you guys using in this area, and how did you get them installed? Would you recommend anything specifically, or a specific installer? Also, do you know if the antenna can carry Analog as well as Digital, as I am only going to have one HDTV in the house for now.

I noticed from antennaweb.org that all of the digital channels are UHF except ABC which is VHF. Do I need to get a combo antenna, or how does that work?

Any advice you have for getting set up in this area would be appreciated.

Thanks!

- Dave

Dave..

Since you want to keep the cost as low as possible, I'd try good ol' rabbit ears, first. Unless you're down in a valley, you might find you can get the whole dog-and-pony show and you're only out ten bucks. But keep receipts in case it DOESN'T work.

Antennas are antennas.. they carry whatever radio-frequency band they're built for and then some. Digital TV signals are in the same band as analog and a combo will pull 'em all down easily, along with FM, police and fire and anything else that's in the VHF and UHF bands close to TV signals. It's up to the tuner to filter everything else out, tune a specific frequency and produce the program material.

Your best bet is always going to be a roof-mounted combo antenna. From your angle and distance, a combo pointed right at WLWT ought to pull down everybody.

Wade through the antenna thread at the top of the Local forum for lots of tips and tricks.

Good luck

Doc

PS: New house in Burlington?? And you didn't consider buying MINE?? It's an HDTV watchers nirvana. You can get all of Cincinnati and most of Dayton's digital TV stations with one, well-placed attic antenna. Unfortunately, there's no way to fit all of that into the brochure. <g>.

Has anyone here tried to get clear QAM from Insight? My SIR-T151 is biting the dust and I'm thinking about getting a ATSC+QAM tuner. TIA!

psm - cant comment on the qam - but the dvico fusion5 does a very nice job with ota - others have reported mixed results with the fusions QAM abailites.

jim

Thanks for the info!

Well, since I'm trying to cut out my cable bill, I want to at least get high quality OTA reception. That and the fact that my TV will be in the basement, makes me want to get a roof top antenna.

Do you know if splitting the cable to two TV's will make a big difference? Also, do I need to get some sort of amplifier, or is it just the antenna and cable?

Thanks,

- Dave

Dave..

It's all trial and error. What will work for your next-door neighbor may not work for you. You may find that a pre-amp such as the CM 7777 helps when you're splitting to more than, say, 2 TVs. Anything you put into the line will pull down the signal somewhat. Splitters usually knock it down between 3 and 9 db. Is that enough to need a pre-amp? Hard to say. Every installation is different. I always recommend starting small and working up.

Doc

OK, so I'm still thinking about OTA up in lebanon in my new house. But I got to thinking that if I could get HD through a "lifeline" subscription from my cable company, that would be more convenient than an ugly ol' antenna on the roof (My wife's words) I checked with Time Warner and they said they "scramble" the local HD channels, so I would need a box from them. That won't work. We also have something called Lebanon Telecommunications. Some local cable company. They do offer a lifeline subscription for 10 bucks a month, but nobody can seem to tell me if the HD channels would be scrambled for me. Anybody have a guess of a way to figure this out??

OK, so I'm still thinking about OTA up in lebanon in my new house. But I got to thinking that if I could get HD through a "lifeline" subscription from my cable company, that would be more convenient than an ugly ol' antenna on the roof (My wife's words) I checked with Time Warner and they said they "scramble" the local HD channels, so I would need a box from them. That won't work. We also have something called Lebanon Telecommunications. Some local cable company. They do offer a lifeline subscription for 10 bucks a month, but nobody can seem to tell me if the HD channels would be scrambled for me. Anybody have a guess of a way to figure this out??

In the Dayton area, Time Warner does not scramble local digital channels...they are sent as "in the clear" 256QAM. They also send Discovery HD and TNT HD "in the clear" as well. I receive these using a DVICO Fusion card in my Home Theater PC. Caveat, though, is that Time Warner sometimes does not carry all the locals...they do not send NBC affiliate WDTN up here.

Lebanon Telecommunications is the city-owned cable firm in Lebanon. I have no idea if they send locals as unscrambled QAM or not.

You might try buying (from someplace with a good return policy if it doesn't work) or borrowing a QAM-capable tuner box, hooking it up to your cable, and seeing if anything comes through.

psm - cant comment on the qam - but the dvico fusion5 does a very nice job with ota - others have reported mixed results with the fusions QAM abailites.

jim

My DVICO Fusion 3 works well on TWC in Dayton. The drivers have gotten better over time. Was able to record HD of "Into the West" off TNT-HD on Friday. TWC sends TNT HD in the clear. The only problem I have is that the card will crash on Channel 94 which I think contains the "music choice" streams. I would imagine it doesn't understand something about the data format on that channel.

In the Dayton area, Time Warner does not scramble local digital channels...they are sent as "in the clear" 256QAM. They also send Discovery HD and TNT HD "in the clear" as well. I receive these using a DVICO Fusion card in my Home Theater PC. Caveat, though, is that Time Warner sometimes does not carry all the locals...they do not send NBC affiliate WDTN up here.

Lebanon Telecommunications is the city-owned cable firm in Lebanon. I have no idea if they send locals as unscrambled QAM or not.

You might try buying (from someplace with a good return policy if it doesn't work) or borrowing a QAM-capable tuner box, hooking it up to your cable, and seeing if anything comes through.

I'm looking at the Samsung DLP with ATSC tuner. Is that a QAM tuner? I'm not sure what the difference is. Will I need another box?

QAM is the modulation that cable companies use to send their signal - OTA uses 8VSB or something like that. If your samsung is just ATSC and not "cable card" ready, then you can not tune QAM so if you have cable you will need another box

That sucks that TWC does not broadcast in the clear here... We have adelphia right now but TWC has bought them and the transition should take place in the next 8 months.. kind of disapointing now that I have the fusion5 for the HTPC.

jim

My DVICO Fusion 3 works well on TWC in Dayton. The drivers have gotten better over time. Was able to record HD of "Into the West" off TNT-HD on Friday. TWC sends TNT HD in the clear. The only problem I have is that the card will crash on Channel 94 which I think contains the "music choice" streams. I would imagine it doesn't understand something about the data format on that channel.

I would check that built-in tuner. My Mits has a built-in tuner that can decode ATSC and QAM. The cablecard will be needed to decode scrambled signal, but I am pretty sure that TWC is NOT Scrambling the local channels, I am pretty sure that they can't actually. The pay HD channels are scrambled, but not the locals, which is what u want anyway.

QAM is the modulation that cable companies use to send their signal - OTA uses 8VSB or something like that. If your samsung is just ATSC and not "cable card" ready, then you can not tune QAM so if you have cable you will need another box

The TV is cable card ready. So if I'm understanding you, I will not need a STB or a cable card. The tuner should be able to handle it straight in right?

I would check that built-in tuner. My Mits has a built-in tuner that can decode ATSC and QAM. The cablecard will be needed to decode scrambled signal, but I am pretty sure that TWC is NOT Scrambling the local channels, I am pretty sure that they can't actually. The pay HD channels are scrambled, but not the locals, which is what u want anyway.

Interesting...I called time warner and spoke to a tech supervisor. He said they do scramble all HD channels including the locals. Could this vary by location? I'm up in Lebanon, anybody else getting them through TWC?

I also called that Lebanon Telecommunications. The guy said they do NOT scramble the local HD channels, so it looks like that's a reasonable option. Although I have road runner so TWC would be more convenient.

Interesting...I called time warner and spoke to a tech supervisor. He said they do scramble all HD channels including the locals. Could this vary by location? I'm up in Lebanon, anybody else getting them through TWC?

I also called that Lebanon Telecommunications. The guy said they do NOT scramble the local HD channels, so it looks like that's a reasonable option. Although I have road runner so TWC would be more convenient.

TWC in Cincinnati doesnt scramble local HD. The only problem is that I am not sure if anyone tested it over Lifeline. Since TWC puts a filter inline to block high channels I have no idea what effect that will present to HD channels.

I'm pretty sure that it's against the FCC regs to scramble any local HDTV channels over cable - if they're carried, they're supposed to be in the clear.

Unless the cableco in question has been found to face "effective competition" in the market, AND has been deregulated persuant to a FCC order(I don't believe either of these is the case with TW Cincy -Lebanon service area specifically *may* be a different story, but I doubt it ) :

Current FCC rules concerning cable carriage of local digital/HD stations require the cableco to place the digital stations they are carrying as unencrypted on their lowest cost, most "basic" tier of service.

This means, the local HD stations your cableco carries shouldn't be encrypted, and will be/should be decodable with a QAM tuner. In addition to some of the PC cards and STB's that are QAM capable, Any set labeled "digital cable ready" should have a QAM tuner in it, and should decode the local HD stations(and anything else "digital" in the clear) without the need for cablecard.


There is, of course nothing requiring the cableco to "advertise" these fact, or to provide basic cable users with the equipment needed to receive/decode it. IMO, they should however provide accurate information about this ....

Here's what it says in paragraph 102, Sec. VI - E.(pg 34) in FCC's First Report and order from 2001 concerning cable carriage of digital broadcast signals(their most recent rules on cable carriage of DTV stations) :

"102. We believe that in the context of the new digital carriage requirements, it is consistent with the statutory language to require that a broadcaster's digital signal must be available on a basic tier such that all broadcast signals are available to all cable subscribers at the lowest priced tier of service, as Congress envisioned. The basic service tier, including any broadcast signals carried, will continue to be under the jurisdiction of the local franchising authority, and as such, will be rate regulated if the local franchising authority has been certified under Section 623 of the Act. 309 We note, however, that if a cable system faces effective competition under one of the four statutory tests,310 and is deregulated pursuant to a Commission order, the cable operator is free to place a broadcaster's digital signal on upper tiers of service or on a separate digital service tier."

:end quote

The entire report and order is available here :

http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Cable/Orders/2001/fcc01022.pdf


--------------------------------------------

And Yes, 8VSB (Trellis coded 8 level vestigal sideband) is the signal modulation used for OTA DTV/HD.

So in your opinions the "lifeline" service would be their lowest plan? I think I might just try TWC and see what happens.

I currently have lifeline cable with Insight and a LG LST-4200A on order. I'll let you guys know by this weekend if Insight does carry them all in clear QAM. I may test my mother's new set as well, if TW hasn't installed her HD package yet. Somehow I'm predicting that we'll still be using the antenna....

That sucks that TWC does not broadcast in the clear here... We have adelphia right now but TWC has bought them and the transition should take place in the next 8 months.. kind of disapointing now that I have the fusion5 for the HTPC.

jim

Jim, I see that you live in Maineville and are using Adelphia. I'll be moving to Maineville at the end of this month. Are you able to pick up local HD channels with Adelphia's classic cable service? If so, are there any other digital channels that you get as well?

I'm going to use Adelphia for my internet, and wouldn't mind adding on their basic cable service if it's worth it.

I haven't heard many positive things about Adelphia's service, but this may be a bright spot.

Thanks for your help.

-Nick

Nick - I actually dont use adelphia.. Directv and OTA only.. when we first moved in Adelphia gave us free service so I took it (2001) and it was awfull... since then most of my neighbors have complained non stop about the constant outages.. They just brought powerlink out to us last year... They dont even have HD at 100% of what others get yet from what my neighbors say and there is nothing HD on the classic service - you must have the digital tier. So the change to TWC will be welcomed as it will give another choice. I would say our subdivision is at least 70% dbs - what neighborhood are you moving too?

jim

Nick - I actually dont use adelphia.. Directv and OTA only.. when we first moved in Adelphia gave us free service so I took it (2001) and it was awfull... since then most of my neighbors have complained non stop about the constant outages.. They just brought powerlink out to us last year... They dont even have HD at 100% of what others get yet from what my neighbors say and there is nothing HD on the classic service - you must have the digital tier. So the change to TWC will be welcomed as it will give another choice. I would say our subdivision is at least 70% dbs - what neighborhood are you moving too?

jim


I'm in willow pond (for 3 more days till i move) where are you?

They dont even have HD at 100% of what others get yet from what my neighbors say and there is nothing HD on the classic service - you must have the digital tier. So the change to TWC will be welcomed as it will give another choice. I would say our subdivision is at least 70% dbs - what neighborhood are you moving too?

jim


Bummer...

I was hoping I could get unscrambled local HD channels through Adelphia's classic service...and now I hear of yet another unsatisfied customer. Do you know if their cable internet is worth it?

I'm moving to Village on the Green (Inverness Homes) at the end of the month. We're very excited. I figure a new house needs a new TV...so I am going to take the plunge into HD shortly after we move in...

I may have to look into DBS a little more closely now.

Thanks,
Nick

I am in Indian Lake myself.. so just around the corner from you.. Dimitriz I beleive is moving into Village on the Green.. small world!

Time Warner's response to my email asking if they encrypt the locals;

"However, in most of Lebanon, the rate for the Lifeline Tier is $5.99 per month, and the rate for the Standard Tier is $17.99 per month. Please note that you must subscribe to the Lifeline Tier in order to subscribe to the Standard Tier.

You can subscribe to the most basic Tier of service, Lifeline, and receive the local HDTV channels. However, you do need to also subscribe to a cable box, as the channels are encrypted. The local HD channels are not included in a Digital Tier of service. However, we do offer an HDTV Tier which includes additional HDTV channels. "

Does this seem right to everybody? Why would I need a cable box? I'm very confused by the information they are providing me. The major reason I want to get this figure out it I'm having DirecTV install a dish and I was going to have the guy do an OTA if I can't get it through cable.

sounds like a lot of double talk bs to me

Yes, very small world!

Indian Lake is a very nice neighboorhood, and I'm a huge fan of the floorplans available with Ryan homes.

Well, it looks like I'll have to use OTA for HD. How is your reception in Maineville? Are you able to receive any of the Dayton local stations? Do you have your antenna placed in the attic or on top of your roof. I apologize for all the questions, but I'm hoping to do this right the first time.

Last question...unrelated to HD. Do you use Adelphia for high speed internet or did you go with Zoomtown or something similar?

Again, thanks for all the help.

Regards,
Nick

where I am at I sit high with no trees in the way.. so i get excellent reception - if I spin the antenna I can get dayton with no problems... the antenna is on the garage so it works well - adelphia is hell and powerlink chugs at about 300k at night - not many here have it.. everyone uses zoomtown.. just make sure your subdivision is cincinnati bell - not sprint .. once you get "north" of 48 its mostly sprint..

Does this seem right to everybody? Why would I need a cable box? I'm very confused by the information they are providing me. The major reason I want to get this figure out it I'm having DirecTV install a dish and I was going to have the guy do an OTA if I can't get it through cable.

No it doesn't seem right, but it may be correct. By Rights: they should supply all DTV OTS locals (deemed must-carry by the broadcaster) on their lowest tier of service and unencrypted. What they really do is apparently a matter for debate. I may be able to solve this mystery by bringing my new STB to a friend's TW Cincy house, but don't count on that level of coordination taking place within more than several months. You could unethically purchase and return a QAM tuner to conduct a test yourself, and share the results. I wouldn't trust anyone you may reach at TW to know what your asking or give you a sales pitch.

However, it may be a moot argument. I would strongly recommend a proper roof mounted antenna over QAM; if for no other reason than you'll be able to pick up more stations than your cable provider will ever carry. One could argue that you may get less compression that way too, but with all this weather multicasting, that's probably not true anymore. When I say "proper" I don't mean the little piece of wire they want to wrap around the dish: you need a good ol' fashioned yagi on a mast.

My primary interest in QAM is more of a back-up plan. My antenna is mounted in our attic and sometimes when the roof is covered with snow and ice in the winter, we get minor - very very minor breakups. Sadly they seem to be worst during the Super Bowl (this is likely an observational abnormality though).

Yes, very small world!

Indian Lake is a very nice neighboorhood, and I'm a huge fan of the floorplans available with Ryan homes.

Well, it looks like I'll have to use OTA for HD. How is your reception in Maineville? Are you able to receive any of the Dayton local stations? Do you have your antenna placed in the attic or on top of your roof. I apologize for all the questions, but I'm hoping to do this right the first time.

Last question...unrelated to HD. Do you use Adelphia for high speed internet or did you go with Zoomtown or something similar?

Again, thanks for all the help.

Regards,
Nick


Hey Neighbor!

My house is about to be started in Inverness part also, so I’ll be moving in there sometime in late Nov or early Dec.

As far as DSL, you can only get sprint out there, Cincinnati Bell aint around.
I’ve talked to TWC and they assured me a few times that they will cover the area by the end of this year.
So hopefully they will by the time I move in. Otherwise I’ll just get an OTA and whatever high speed Internet I can get my hands on.

You should be able to get Dayton stations from OTA; I got their Fox from Loveland with an indoor antenna.

Dimitriz

Dimitri,

Thanks for the reply. I remember reading Sprint was the phone carrier, but didn't know if things had changed in the past 4 months.

I'll probably go with OTA from the beginning and hope that TWC can get into the neighborhood by the end of the year. I currently have TWC digital with DVR and RoadRunner, and have been very happy with it.

Thanks to all for your help!

By the way, I'll be...in my house by the end of the month.

Edited house location: Probably not a good idea to post that info on a forum...I guess I'll know who it is if my house gets egged.

-Nick

is that an invitation for consumption of ice cold beers :)



By the way, I'll be on Honeysuckle Ct by the end of the month....2nd house on the right.

-Nick

Alright, Dudes. Party at Nick's house!

Hheheh, I was thinking about mentioning where my house would be at.. lol
Either way i'll go there today to give them the $.... again.. :(
Could have bought a really nice TV instead..... lol

Can anyone comment on picture quality between Time Warner Digitcal cable vs. Dish Network? Both HD and non-HD channels?

I'm thinking about getting TWC for a few months until MPEG-4 comes out. Anyone support this? Thanks!

Hi folks. New here, and glad I found you folks. Im in Mt. Washington on Warner Cable. Just switched to HD a couple of weeks ago. I picked up a Samsung LN-328RW, and switched from the old S-A DVR to the 8300HD. I have a couple of quick questions:
1 - If anyone has a Samsung LCD, have you had any luck getting it to work with the HDMI out on the 8300HD? I get a "No Input" message on the screen when i try to use. Brand new cable, etc. Am I missing a setting or something?
2 - Is the external SATA port enabled? The old one had firewire ports, but they were never active as far as I know. I realize that S-A is using SATA.e. and I need the right cable.
Thanks!

Hi folks. New here, and glad I found you folks. Im in Mt. Washington on Warner Cable. Just switched to HD a couple of weeks ago. I picked up a Samsung LN-328RW, and switched from the old S-A DVR to the 8300HD. I have a couple of quick questions:
1 - If anyone has a Samsung LCD, have you had any luck getting it to work with the HDMI out on the 8300HD? I get a "No Input" message on the screen when i try to use. Brand new cable, etc. Am I missing a setting or something?
2 - Is the external SATA port enabled? The old one had firewire ports, but they were never active as far as I know. I realize that S-A is using SATA.e. and I need the right cable.
Thanks!

I remember there was a procedure of some kind that I had to complete to make the HDMI port active. I believe that it was something along the lines of:
1 Unplug the DVR from the wall
2 Plug in the HDMI cable to the TV and DVR
3 Turn on the TV to the HDMI/DVI input
4 Plug the DVR in
5 The HDMI port should now be active!

I'm pretty sure that the external SATA port is not enabled yet.

Do you have a 5.1 system? Once you have the HDMI port enabled and connected does the 8300HD output a 5.1 signal on the optical digital port (obviously on programs that are 5.1 like all of TNT and most/all of Discovery HD)? I'm not sure that I have heard a straight answer on this topic yet. I'm looking into getting a bigger HDTV and I want to make sure that if I use a HDMI to HDMI connection that I won't lose the 5.1 surround.

I remember there was a procedure of some kind that I had to complete to make the HDMI port active. I believe that it was something along the lines of:
1 Unplug the DVR from the wall
2 Plug in the HDMI cable to the TV and DVR
3 Turn on the TV to the HDMI/DVI input
4 Plug the DVR in
5 The HDMI port should now be active!

I'm pretty sure that the external SATA port is not enabled yet.

Do you have a 5.1 system? Once you have the HDMI port enabled and connected does the 8300HD output a 5.1 signal on the optical digital port (obviously on programs that are 5.1 like all of TNT and most/all of Discovery HD)? I'm not sure that I have heard a straight answer on this topic yet. I'm looking into getting a bigger HDTV and I want to make sure that if I use a HDMI to HDMI connection that I won't lose the 5.1 surround.

Thanks for the reply, Terry. No, I only have a 2.1 for the time being. As far as I can see from reading in several places, there was an upgrade done to the 8300HD that fixed the problem with no 5.1 surround through the HDMI port, but I have no way to check. I don't know what size/type of TV youre looking for, but Im really pleased with the Samsung LCD. This is only the second time since the 70s that I haven't bought a Sony. The last one was an NEC 27" console, and then NEC stopped making consumer TVs.

1 - If anyone has a Samsung LCD, have you had any luck getting it to work with the HDMI out on the 8300HD? I get a "No Input" message on the screen when i try to use. Brand new cable, etc. Am I missing a setting or something?


I don't have a Samsung, but did discover that if I rebooted the DVR with the TV off, it seemed to not realize my TV was HDCP compliant. If I had the TV on when i reboot, it picked it up fine. You may want to try that.

There is also a way to get into the diagnostics screen so that you can see what the issue was with the HDCP problem. I beleived there is info on that in an 8300HD hardware thread.

Can anyone recommend a competent, trustworthy and reasonably priced technician that can install a multiswitch and do some external cabling here in Cincy? I was pretty happy with the installer that DirecTV sent to do my initial setup, but I lost his number. I'm now in need of an a third receiver and are forced to use a multiswitch. I also want to take the opportunity to combine my OTA signal with DirecTV via 5x8 multiswitch / diplexer and finally get rid of DirecTV locals.

Time Warner's response to my email asking if they encrypt the locals;

"However, in most of Lebanon, the rate for the Lifeline Tier is $5.99 per month, and the rate for the Standard Tier is $17.99 per month. Please note that you must subscribe to the Lifeline Tier in order to subscribe to the Standard Tier.

You can subscribe to the most basic Tier of service, Lifeline, and receive the local HDTV channels. However, you do need to also subscribe to a cable box, as the channels are encrypted. The local HD channels are not included in a Digital Tier of service. However, we do offer an HDTV Tier which includes additional HDTV channels. "

Does this seem right to everybody? Why would I need a cable box? I'm very confused by the information they are providing me. The major reason I want to get this figure out it I'm having DirecTV install a dish and I was going to have the guy do an OTA if I can't get it through cable.

Double talk out the wazoo. I live on the west side, and I am subscribed to the Lifeline (what a joke) and Standard Tier (well, whatever gets me up to SciFi). I am using my PC with a FusionHDTV3-Gold-T tuner card to get "in the clear" HD content (QAM). Of course, the cable local HD channels only seem to be active during actual HD content which is a nuisance compared to the OTA broadcast. I am not using a cable box, nor do I have digital cable.

If there is anyone else in Cinci using the Fusion Gold-T tuner, it is now working under Linux and MythTV. I am having some audio issues right now, but that should be resolved soon. :D Also, datadirect/zap2it does not yet have the cable HD channels in thier lineup, so MythTV cannot program for them yet. :(

Noticed WCET-DT 48.1 was running HD Yesterday afternoon, they should do that more often ... If only they'd improve their HD PQ by getting rid of at least 1(even better 2) of the multicast subs when they are in "HD mode" ...

Looked at their website to see if there was any info on schedule for expanded HD programming on Sundays/etc, but didn't see anything. I did notice that they still list full programming info for all times for 48.2 on their schedule, but they still don't say anything about Off-air viewers no longer getting 48.2 when they are in "HD mode"(because, as they had told me, they are experimenting with providing bandwidth to first responders). I had sent them a note about this, evidently it didn't do any good.

I also notice the following info from this page http://www.cetconnect.org/television/channels.asp remains incorrect, as it allways has been. CETKids/CETPlus+CET You is available OTA as well. CETKids whenever they are on the air, CETPlus+CETYou when they are in SD multicast mode(during the day) ...

quote:

How do I get CET Kids, CET Plus and CET You?
At this time, CET Kids, CET Plus and CET You are only available to Time Warner Digital Cable customers. Existing Time Warner customers need to upgrade their service to Time Warner Digital Cable to receive these new channels. We hope to expand this service to other cable companies in the region in the near future.

end quote

------------------------------------

Still haven't noticed any DD 5.1 from WCET-DT lately either when it's been there from KET4/WCVN-DT.

OTA DTV wise -- except for those first couple of months they were on the air with HD and NO multicasting, and the couple of HD productions they have done, overall I continue to be very disappointed with WCET ....

OTA DTV wise -- except for those first couple of months they were on the air with HD and NO multicasting, and the couple of HD productions they have done, overall I continue to be very disappointed with WCET ....

As bad as they are, they're still my first choice for PBS. Their PQ is better than WPTD by a mile.

anyword on wcpo's fixes? what about dolby digital 5.1 from the big 3? - summers ending fast.. I have a feeling MNF will look like crap again on wcpo!

jim

Their PQ is better than WPTD by a mile.

I agree their HD PQ a bit better(it's better than WOSU-DT's HD as well) but I don't know if I'd go that far, and the quality of the SD services when WCET is in HD mode is often horrible ...

PBS HD from WCVN-DT/KET4(which transcodes PBS HD to 720p before broadcast) has the fewest compression artifacts of all 4 Cincy/Dayton area PBS stations to my eyes .... DD 5.1 as well .... Their SD DTV PQ is also very good ... all the time ...

I think WPTD-DT's "advantage" is that they run PBS HD 6pm~6am nightly, instead of just 7 or 8pm~11pm .... but yeah, it's pretty bad ...

Speaking of PBS, I notice that WPTO-DT's HD service (14.6) continues to have frequent glitches when they are running their time-shifted HD on Sat and Sunday nights. Frequently there is no audio, or "stuttering" video.

Anyone know what the plan is for football this year in HD?

1. NFL - I heard all Fox's games will be in HD this year, is this true? Last year, CBS broadcasted 4 games per week in HD, how many are they doing this year?

2. College- CBS broadcasted their game of the week last year in HD. Are there any plans to increase this? How about NBC or ABC? ABC did some of the bowl games last year.

Thanks

Tony

Tony,

Nothing official, but you may want to look at this thread: "Is CBS adding to HD coverage for NFL 2005 season?"

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=559656

anyword on wcpo's fixes?
jim

Jim,

Nothing new but if I recall correctly I think they said their encoder updates as well as equipment upgrades from ABC was supposed to happen in August ...

We will see ... In any event, I'll just stick with WKEF-DT, ABC HD Dayton until(if) WCPO gets it fixed ... (jinx alert) -- WKEF-DT hasn't been without their problems, buty they've been very good about passing through ABC HD the past few months ... They'd also told me recently that they hoped to have DD 5.1 soon .....

I currently have lifeline cable with Insight and a LG LST-4200A on order. I'll let you guys know by this weekend if Insight does carry them all in clear QAM. I may test my mother's new set as well, if TW hasn't installed her HD package yet. Somehow I'm predicting that we'll still be using the antenna....

psm0110 - did you get a chance to test as to whether Insight is sending HD local content across their lifeline service? - when you can - thx

No I haven't. My tuner has still not arrived from Ovation in Mason, Ohio. I'm working in Mason and decided to buy from them when they said they could have one at the store in two days. It's been over two weeks... I'm going to really chew them out next Wednesday if it doesn't come in.

No I haven't. My tuner has still not arrived from Ovation in Mason, Ohio. I'm working in Mason and decided to buy from them when they said they could have one at the store in two days. It's been over two weeks... I'm going to really chew them out next Wednesday if it doesn't come in.

well I hope, for Ovations sake, you get your goods "soon".. That is a bit of a miss on that guesstimate - When you get the chance to update, would appreciate. Thanks for the followup -

A lot of great info here....
Newbie to the site...
I just dropped Insight here in NKY and picked up DirecTV.
Picture quality on my HD set was horrendous with Insight...
I got the HD package and receiver through DTV.
Much to my chagrin, I was not able to pick up any of the major networks via HD.
Obviously, I knew I was not going to get the local network affiliates in HD, but I was told that I could get the major networks in HD, but from an out of market site, ala NYC or LA.
However, I was told it would likely take some sort of good reasoning to the DTV people that I receive those networks in HD.
Is there some way to get around DTV telling me that I cannot receive those channels?
I've been told they are BS'ing me if they say they are unavailable.
I am trying to do this without having to purchase an off-air antenna.
Any info would be greatly appreciated....

Diamond..

The local affiliates in Cincinnati are not prone to giving out Distant Signal Waivers.. especially not since they all toss out pretty decent DTV signals, WSTR-DT excepted. WXIX and WCPO have traditionally had a "deny all" policy. Last I checked, so did WLWT. So the odds of you getting signal waivers from affiliates of the four networks DirecTV offers in HD are probably zero. Better start shopping for an antenna.

Doc

Based on the boards vast experience, what woudl be an economical way of going about it?
Essentially, the local affiliates would have to allow me to get the major networks from an out of town market?

Based on the boards vast experience, what woudl be an economical way of going about it?

Use a antenna. which could run you anywhere from $2 for indoor rabbit ears/UHF loop to about $50~100(DIY) for a typical VHF/UHF outdoor setup ... That's a one time "permanent" fee, no other costs involved for you except the antenna setup ...

Your only other option is cable, although TW Cincinnati+other cableco's in the Cincinnati area(AFAIK) do not currently carry WB HD from WSTR-DT Cincinnati -- So, currently Your only option for WB HD is OTA(over the air).

In case you didn't know, along with the sat receiver, your D*(DirecTV) HD receiver already has a Over the air(OTA) digital(DTV)/HD receiver in it. In most cases, That's the most "expensive" part about OTA DTV/HD , currently. There are no subscription costs for the programming, you don't even need D* to get it, there are OTA only DTV/HD receivers as well ....


Essentially, the local affiliates would have to allow me to get the major networks from an out of town market?


Why would they allow you to do that(unless, in some cases the station is owned by the network in which case having all local eyeballs on the commercial time sold by the local stations may not be as important to the network O&O's -- , none of our local stations are network owned) when you can pick them up(for free) with an antenna?

If you want to receive other net affiliates besides Cincinnati, Depending upon your location+your antenna setup, in this area it's the case you can of course receive network affiliates from other markets. Most Dayton stations coverage area extends South of Ohio river, for example.

Spoke with WCPO engineering today re: the jaggies on their HD signal. Encoder upgrade which had been scheduled for mid-July, has been re-sched for 2nd or 3rd week in August. Word is jaggies will be addressed before football season kicks in.

hp

lets hope so.. we have heard this before too :) lol

anyone else get an email from the wcpo-hd newsletter? first one in a looong time.. talks about gma in hd!

jim

Jim,

It has been probably a year or so since I've seen one of those. Glad they're sending something out again.

I got a auto-notification back in Jan or Feb that my "subscription" to the WCPO HD newletter was running out+that I needed to resubmit my email address to the list-server. Which I did, but there was some sort of "bug" and it didn't work.

I just went to the www.wcpodt.com website again and tried to resubmit my email address to the list, and again got a error message - this time I sent them a bug report.

In any case, perhaps you, or someone else could post their current HD newsletter for those of us who can't "see" it ?:

thanks

Update: The bug report report worked, I'm now "subscribed" to the list, although one of their web folks had to add me manually ...

Noticed WCET-DT's programming schedule for 48.1(CET-HD) on CET's website now reflects an expanded schedule for PBS HD/Widescreen programming - this seems to correspond with what I've seen from them lately.

According to their current program schedule, they are now offering PBS HD/Widescreen programming(and presumably occasional local HD productions they've done) per the following schedule :

5pm~1am (signoff) - Monday Thru Friday.

Throughout their hours of on-air operation(approx 6:30am~1am) Saturday and Sunday.

FYI, I've updated the info post in first post of this thread to reflect the above.

---------------------

I'll be sending them a thank you note, I'd encourage others who appreciate more HD from them to do the same. (see here for contact info :http://www.cetconnect.org/contact/ )

Way to go CET :)

Jim,

It has been probably a year or so since I've seen one of those. Glad they're sending something out again.


In any case, perhaps you, or someone else could post their current HD newsletter for those of us who can't "see" it ?:

thanks


Here you go Jeff, I just got this in my email this morning. It's nice to hear from WCPO again although no mention about adding 5.1 audio :(






Hello WCPO-DT e-mail newsletter subscribers,

We thought you'd be interested in this exciting tidbit:

ABC NEWS TO BROADCAST "GOOD MORNING AMERICA" & THE WEEKEND EDITION OF "GOOD
MORNING AMERICA" IN HIGH DEFINITION

First Regularly Scheduled Commercial Network News Programs Broadcast in HDTV

ABC News will broadcast "Good Morning America" in high definition seven days
a week starting this early fall, ABC News President David Westin has
announced. The HDTV launch of "Good Morning America" and the Weekend Edition
of "Good Morning America" marks the first time ever that regularly scheduled
commercial network news programming will be broadcast in high definition.

http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/2005/05/good_morning_am.php

Liz Foreman
Internet Site Director
WCPO-TV in Cincinnati
www.wcpo.com // www.wcpodt.com
For your cell phone: wap.wcpo.com

513 852-4069 // eforeman@wcpo.com

I checked out WCPO's website from the link nightwatchman provided and also got the 'page not available' message when I attempted to subscribe to their newsletter. I also submitted a bug report.

Thanks microbob -- BTW -- I was just curious - How is Lexington OTA working for you these days with WTVQ-DT improving their signal a bit and WLEX-DT making it on the air last week? -- The directional antenna pattern(WLEX-DT/WTVQ-DT are both using the same transmitting antenna) does show the biggest Null right towards the North, nevertheless, From what I could tell a few nights/mornings last week via a little tropo, WTVQ-DT seems to be coming in more often than before with a little enhancement, and I saw WLEX-DT for the first time last Tuesday night - Whenever WKOI-DT (12 Miles) improves their facilities(before July 2006 I assume), I probably won't get to see WLEX-DT very often ..

DusterScott,

FYI, The bug report worked here ... Liz added me to the list ...

In case you didn't know, along with the sat receiver, your D*(DirecTV) HD receiver already has a Over the air(OTA) digital(DTV)/HD receiver in it. In most cases, That's the most "expensive" part about OTA DTV/HD , currently. There are no subscription costs for the programming, you don't even need D* to get it, there are OTA only DTV/HD receivers as well ....

Forgive me for being such a newbie....and novice when it comes to this...
So, with the likelihood of my D* HD Receiver having an OTA, how do I activate it to see the HD programming from the local affiliates?
Forgive me as well for not having mastered the ability to quote only segments of a response....

I tried to get both stations LEX/TVQ last week after the upgrade was announced, and was unsuccessful. I have a tree issue and that's why I am unable to get a lock on them from my location. I plan to relocate the anteena as soon as it cools off.

So, with the likelihood of my D* HD Receiver having an OTA, how do I activate it to see the HD programming from the local affiliates?
Forgive me as well for not having mastered the ability to quote only segments of a response....It's literally as easy as having the TV you have now scan for analog channels. The only difference is, digital is all-or-nothing. Where you might pick up a weak signal with an analog TV, you have to have a pretty decent ditigal signal to get a picture. The instructions will walk you through it.

Good luck and enjoy.

It's literally as easy as having the TV you have now scan for analog channels. The only difference is, digital is all-or-nothing. Where you might pick up a weak signal with an analog TV, you have to have a pretty decent ditigal signal to get a picture. The instructions will walk you through it.

Good luck and enjoy.
Excuse my ignorance....how exactly would I perform such a scan? Through the TV? Through the receiver?
I have a 31 inch JVC Flat Screen HD-Ready set....if that helps any?

The STB you get will be able to scan for and access DTV signals just similiar to the way your TV does analog. Just follow the instructions that come with you box when you get it.

The STB you get will be able to scan for and access DTV signals just similiar to the way your TV does analog. Just follow the instructions that come with you box when you get it.

STB?

I think I figured it out.
I scanned for the channels. Got Dry Ridge, Batesville,and Cincinnati.
I am located in Florence.
I selected Cincy. Got quite a few to appear on the Guide. However, all said "searching for satellite 771".
I edited most of the channels and kept the ones like this example: WLWTDT.
I assume since I cannot receive the signal, I need to go out and look for an off-air antenna.
How well do the indoor antennas work?
I assume, I have covered all that ground and the antenna is the next step. Correct?

DiamondD,

First off .. Forgot to mention welcome to AVSforum .. And as a new member, keep in mind there is NO such thing as a "stupid" question here ... You can, however find lots of great info on OTA/antennas here .. not only in this thread, but in other threads in local info+reception as well as hardware areas.

STB= "Set Top Box" (i.e. Your DirecTV HD receiver).

The below might seem a little long(Doc is better than I am at providing short useful answers), however, it's really not as difficult or "complicated" as it might seem, and hopefully some of it might be useful for others as well.

How well do the indoor antennas work?


Short answer -- They can, and do work very well in many circumstances. Some folks in strong signal areas just hook up the rabbit ears+receive excellent reception - perhaps having to "tweak" the positioning of the ears occasionally -- and since that's the easiest, least expensive option -- It's worth it to try that first ... BUT, as with anything "wireless" on VHF/UHF frequencies - there are many factors which can effect getting "good reception" so you just can't count on it being as easy as that ...

Long answer:

Chances are probably generally quite good that you can get good reception with a indoor antenna relatively easily if you are within, say about 15 miles or so from Downtown Cincinnati. That's not saying getting good reception from beyond that distance from indoors isn't possible, it's just not as likely, or not as likely it will be as easy. If you have a nearby hill in that direction(especially if it's a big, steep hill you are on the wrong side of) -- it can make it more difficult, even if you are closer than 15 miles or so .... But, you don't have to have "clear line of sight" to the transmitting antennas, as is definitely the case with your satellite dish+D*'s sats.

Go here, ( www.antennaweb.org )and punch in your address info/etc. Indoor reception will likely be easiest for any stations that pop up in yellow.

As a general "rule of thumb" standard construction materials(wood/asphalt shingles in an attic for instance) will attenuate the signals somewhere in the range of ~13~20db(that is a lot) as compared to outdoors. Multipath(basically reflections of the signal) is also generally more of a problem from indoors. Typically, "indoor" antennas don't have the gain(to "collect" more signal), or directivity(directivity+proper aiming of antenna is useful to minimize multipath+co-channel and other interference issues).

For these reasons, if you can place the indoor antenna near a window that faces the towers(in your case, generally North) it might turn out to be best . However, you might also find a "sweet spot" where the antenna gets good reception just about anywhere. So, having a little extra coax(which probably won't come with the antenna) so you can move the antenna around and find a good spot for it(who knows, you might even find a sweet spot for reception from inside a closet/storage area/etc) is usually a good idea. On top of the TV, or in a basement is generally NOT a good spot to put an antenna ....

Here's info on a couple of the best UHF "indoor" antennas out there :

The radio shack Double Bow Tie :

( http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D624 )

Zenith Silver Sensor(I think BB has these, or at least they used to) :

http://www.zenith.com/sub_prod/product_Display.asp?cat=49&id=131

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/silver.html


I'd probably try RS DBT or Silver sensor first, unless you want to spend less than $15~20, in which case you could try out one of these simple(but effective if a strong signal w/o too much multipath is present) antennas(Note: The $4 "Outline" bowtie(at 2nd link) is the "best" UHF antenna out of these:

Budget VHF/UHF antenna:

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D1864

"outline" UHF bow tie:

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D234

VHF dipole(rabbit ears) :

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D236

---------------------------------------------

In any case, Keep your receipts in case you decide to return it and get a "outdoor" type antenna(which can also be installed indoors, such as in a attic) with more gain/directivity. Lowe's(carries a couple of Channel master's antennas)+Radio shack carry small~medium size VHF/UHF combo outdoor antennas for around $25~50.

-----------------------------------------------------

Keep in mind that although most digital stations in our area are currently on UHF, WCPO-DT(ABC HD Cincinnati) is on VHF. Unless something changes(and it probably won't, I'd guess) with FCC's currently undergoing DTV channel election process WKRC-DT(CBS HD Cincinnati - currently transmits on UHF 31) will also be moving to VHF 12 after analog shut off(which will probably be sometime after 2009.)

Maybe there are some I haven't seen, but Unfortunetly, I don't know of any really "good" Indoor settop type VHF/UHF combo antennas out there currently -- The "best" indoor type VHF antenna out there currently is a set of rabbit ears, and all the indoor VHF/UHF antennas out there have those for sure, but what they are lacking is a good UHF antenna section ==== (such as silver sensor or DBT) ... The $9.99 VHF/UHF "budget" antenna with VHF rabbit ears+UHF loop antenna is probably as good as any of the available VHF/UHF "indoor" type antennas(using the VHF antenna on it for VHF+clipping on the $4 UHF Outline bow tie would be a bit better), but, I have heard some folks have had some luck with this overpriced RS VHF/UHF antenna:

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D1880

Again, I'd probably just try the silver sensor or DBT first, as it's possible it might pick up WCPO-DT as well(WKRC-DT will be reverting to VHF after analog shut off as well), if you are in a strong enough signal area. If however, the DBT or Silver sensor is working well on UHF but you need something better for VHF ... You'll probably want to pick up a pair of VHF rabbit ears(such as the VHF dipole antenna in 3rd link) as well as a VHF/UHF combiner(such as CM0549 - available here: http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/joiners.htm ) in order to properly combine the two antennas. If not included with the antenna/if lead from antenna is 300 ohm twinlead, You may also need one or two 300Ohm-75ohm baluns (like this : http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F003%5F001&product%5Fid=15%2D1140 )or two.


I assume, I have covered all that ground and the antenna is the next step. Correct?

Yes, but you'll likely need to run channel scan(on the OTA antenna input anyway) again after hooking up the antenna(and orientating it to "point" towards the towers). It differs among receivers, but in most cases you should also be able to manually tune to the physical channel used by the station to transmit on(shown in antenna web list) for any given station +use some sort of signal meter on the STB in order to adjust the antenna for optimum reception.

What you are seeing currently via your channel scan is only info from the satellite -- If you subscribe to the locals package -- you'll get some of the analog locals LIL via the sat, AND the other info you are seeing is just info from the D*'s EPG - such as guide info for WLWT-DT, NBC HD Cincinnati. You'll need to "access" the actual OTA signals with an antenna to actually "scan in" the local HD channels.

Hope this helps, let us know how it goes ...

DiamondD: I'm in Independence and can guarantee you'll need better than a "set top" antenna to get local HDTV via OTA. I have a modified double bow-tie antenna that I tried and it just barely tunes in WCPO-DT, and only if held aloft in the right stance. I opted for an attic mount antenna that gets me: WLWT-DT, WCPO-DT, WKRC-DT, WCVN-DT, WPTO-DT and WSTR-DT very clearly. Sometimes I can get WCET-DT.

Still, it's always tempting to try to get by with the simpliest solution. Like Jeff said, keep your receipts. Tuning OTA is all about trial and error. The benefit of digital broadcast is that you make that trial and error once, set it and forget it.

I used a smaller Radio Shack antenna, the 50" or 80", I can't remember, it's been up there for years now.
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D2151

DiamondD: I'm in Independence and can guarantee you'll need better than a "set top" antenna to get local HDTV via OTA.
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I wouldn't underestimate the value of the phrase "Your Mileage may vary" when it comes to OTA reception ....

I think you might be surprised at how well some folks can do with "settop" type antennas ... reception "conditions" can vary greatly for a great many reasons, and I'm sure that many folks in N KY(probably even folks quite near your location) can easily get good reception with "set-top" type antennas ....

For example .....

My map shows center of Independence(KY 17+SR 2045) as about 5 miles from WCVN-DT tower, about 17 miles to WSTR-DT, and about 12 miles to all the other Cincinnati stations. I checked a topo profile from that spot in Independence to WLWT/WCET tower, and am seeing no terrain blockage issues whatsoever -- not saying of course significant terrain issues aren't an issue from other nearby receiving locations .....

I'm not in N KY, but I am 27 miles from WSTR, 39 Miles from WCVN, and 32~34 Miles from all the others -- and, I'm located in a small, steep, VERY forested valley. Therefore, if one were to use the logic that one location, only 12 miles from the tower needs something more than "rabbit ears" to get good OTA HD reception, then surely it would be the case that such an antenna would NOT work in my situation, right? Where locations other than South of Cincinnati are concerned, it seems logical to me, anyway since WCET-DT is the only Cincinnati digital station with directional transmitting antenna that squirts significantly less RF energy towards The South than is the case in other directions ....

Well, while I actually do use an outdoor antenna setup(and of course I'd defintely recommend a directional outdoor setup(often with rotor if desired stations are in significantly different directions) to anyone who wants the best, most reliable reception of the most stations possible) -- nevertheless, I have tried indoor antennas just for the fun of it and I can say without a doubt that here, I *do* get, excellent, solid reception from WLWT-DT, WKRC-DT, WCET-DT, WXIX-DT, WPTO-DT and WCPO-DT with a rusty "outline-bowtie"(same as the current $4 RS model) off an OLD TV(you know, back when they actually provided antennas with small TV's), and VHF rabbit ears ... Using a VHF/UHF combiner of course, and also with a ~40FT coax run to TV a el cheapo RS distribution Amp I had laying around.

But ONLY IF those antennas are placed near a 2nd story window facing the towers(South) -- Almost, but not quite can get a lock on WSTR-DT with it, and definitely need outdoors for WCVN-DT. Put it near a East facing window, and it does just as well with all the Dayton stations(12~14 miles NE of my location) - How do the analog stations look with that setup ? Pretty bad -- weak, and ghosty at best. But -- Even the *best* of antennas in the attic? Things are much worse. I can only receive one Dayton digital station from the attic(interestingly enough the only station(WRGT-DT) I can receive reliably with a "set top" antenna actually on the "set-top") - the rest, forget it.

-------------------------------------

Ask any station engineer who has went out on "radials" checking their signal coverage ... With the relatively short VHF/UHF wavelengths involved --- There are often "hot spots" and "cold spots" for the signal all over the place ... even within a few feet(or inches) of each other .... add in multipath difficulties as well and it's easy to understand why it is often so important to be able to move the antenna(sometimes it's even important to find a "hot spot" for an outdoor antenna - professional antenna installers(the good ones) will usually do this with a signal meter to find a good spot to put the antennas) around, laterally, as well as up or down to find those "hot spots" ....

Thanks a bunch...the info is awesome.

nitewatchmen, I tested the antenna website you referred me too and 19-1, 5-1, 12-1 and 48-1 came up in yellow.....so that is a decent sign.
9-1 came up in the next color level below....
I am roughly 12-13 miles from the towers....

I will try and start low and then progress.
I plan on placing the antenna in a window....

If I get the Silver Sensor, does it have a cord that runs from it directly to the OTA hookup on the receiver? Meaning the cord from antenna fits perfectly into receiver?

After making the hookup, I need to rescan the local channel and OTA availability.
For example....I tune in WLWTDT, channel 5-1 on D*. The picture will automatically come up on TV, as I am connected? Obviously I may need to adjust the direction of the antenna, but the picture clarity will adjust on its own, ala old time televisions before cable. There will be no need to hit a button or switch on the remote or receiver?
Just meaning that I need to fine tune that particular channel as I view it?
If that is the case, and the picture clarity is awful, after adjusting the antenna and so forth, I may need to then purchase a stronger antenna or move on outdoors or into an attic....correct?

Just trying to merge onto the HD highway.....via D*.

If I get the Silver Sensor, does it have a cord that runs from it directly to the OTA hookup on the receiver? Meaning the cord from antenna fits perfectly into receiver?


with the Silver sensor, I'm not sure If you'll get the cable(or how much of it) with the antenna itself, but all you need is a bit of (75 ohm coax) RG-6(with F connector on each end) to connect between the Silver sensor+the receiver --- The same type of cable that is used between your satellite dish+receiver. You can pick up precut lengths of RG-6 with F-connectors already on them at various retailers -- I wouldn't get TOO long a cable -- as the more cable there is, the more signal loss there is -- however, I would have a little "extra" so you can move the antenna around a bit to find that "sweet spot" for reception you'll be looking for ...



After making the hookup, I need to rescan the local channel and OTA availability.
For example....I tune in WLWTDT, channel 5-1 on D*. The picture will automatically come up on TV, as I am connected? Obviously I may need to adjust the direction of the antenna, but the picture clarity will adjust on its own, ala old time televisions before cable. There will be no need to hit a button or switch on the remote or receiver?
Just meaning that I need to fine tune that particular channel as I view it?
If that is the case, and the picture clarity is awful, after adjusting the antenna and so forth, I may need to then purchase a stronger antenna or move on outdoors or into an attic....correct?


It sounds like you are mostly on the right track -- except that what you are talking about with "picture clarity" and adjusting the antenna is not "directly" relevant to digital(including HD) OTA broadcasts. How you describe it is how it works with analog OTA broadcasts, but with digital, you either get a perfect picture(meaning you have a "good enough" signal) or you get nothing. There is not much of a "in between", except that if you have a very marginal signal that occasionally drops below threshold, you'll get occasional "dropouts", which can range from short periods of complete "blank screen" to small bits of visable on screen data loss.

Some sort of "signal meter" is a tool most OTA digital receviers have to help you adjust the antenna so you get the best signal, since you can't see the direct effect of what the signal "looks like" right on the screen as is the case with "old fashioned" analog TV. This "signal meter"(for the OTA part of the receiver, not the sat signal meter) is usually accessable either via a button on the remote, or via the user menu system.

Since(except for WPTO/WPTO-DT) in our area the digital stations broadcast off the same towers as the analog stations -- In most cases, You *can* however use the "old fashioned" analog signals and a analog OTA tuner(I'm not sure if your sat receiver has one of these, but it probably does -- but if not, your TV likely has one) as good another diagnostic tool to get somewhat of an idea of how good the digital signals are as well. With analog OTA -- Snow=Weak signal, Ghosting=Multipath. For example, If you see a lot of either snow or ghosting on, say analog WXIX 19(Fox CIncinnati) and are having trouble receiving WXIX-DT 29(Fox digital - remaps to 19-1) ... If it's a lot of "snow" on the analog signal then it's a good bet weak signal is likely a problem for your digital reception as well, if there are a lot of "ghosts" on the analog station, then it's a good bet multipath is an issue you are having. -- Although -- be careful using this method to diagnose things -- as Multipath can be very frequency dependant, and you can't detirmine much about weak signal or multipath if the analog station is broadcasting on VHF and the digital is on UHF - as is the case with WKRC-DT 31(analog 12 - digital "remaps" to 12.1) CBS HD Cincinnati, or WLWT-DT 35(remaps to 5.1), UHF, WLWT 5 analog.

---------------------------------------------

Update: Almost forgot -- this is probably going to seem confusing(It's confusing just talking about it), but I should probably talk a little bit more about "autoscans" and "how" you initially "find" the signal so your receiver knows where it is, say for WLWT-DT 5.1(5.1 being the remapped channel, not where the signal actually is, which is on UHF channel 35) so you can watch it, and from then on tune to 5.1 and watch, for example NBC HD when HD is being broadcast.

So, OK, you are already getting some info for WLWT-DT 5.1 from D*'s EPG. Doc or others with D* may be able to tell you more, but, when you get your antenna setup I don't know whether that info from D*'s EPG is enough to let the receiver know that it actually has to tune to UHF channel 35 and look for their OTA signal at any given time given any "posistion" of your antenna.

Autoscan - How it usually works for OTA digital(just like OTA analog as Doc mentioned) is, when the receiver does it's autoscan, it will only "add" those channels for which it can get a signal lock(the stations from which you are getting a "good enough" signal). Granted, you already have already found entries for at least some of the local stations from D*'s EPG guide, but I'm not sure whether that will be "Enough" to let the receiver actually find those OTA signals so you can watch them once you get your antenna setup. BTW -- While with D*'s receiver's you are getting Guide info for local digital stations via the satellite, Digital OTA stations also send Guide info OTA -- Which many OTA only receivers use -- I'm not sure, but I think in at least some fcases E*'s(Dish network) uses the OTA guide info as well.

So, anyway -- Using WLWT-DT as an example --- During your receiver's auto scan for "digital" signals of VHF/UHF OTA channels 2-69, IF your antenna is getting a good enough signal at the time of the autoscan, it will see the signal on channel 35 from WLWT-DT -- and, if the signal is "good enough", the receiver achieves a signal lock from WLWT-DT, and picks up the remapping info being sent by the station which tells your receiver from then on to "show" it(and integrate with the D* EPG info) as being on channel 5.1.

BUT, if the antenna is not "adjusted" to get a "good enough" signal from WLWT-DT at the time of the autoscan -- (unless perhaps D* has their EPG for OTA stations programmed so it already "knows" to look for the signal from WLWT-DT on 35, --) obviously, those stations won't actually be "found" via the autoscan.

Hopefully, after you get your antenna setup your receiver will find most, or at least some of the OTA stations via autoscan ... But, if it's not already setup to work through the guide --- for those that it doesn't find that should be there(in addition to what you got from antenna web, there is a list with info on all the Cincinnati stations in first post of this thread), there should be a way for you to #1)Manually tune to to the actual, physical channel(not the remapped channel - which is set up so all the stations "appear" to be on the same major channel # as the actual channel the analog station is using) being used by the station(s) you are trying to receive, so you can use the receiver's "signal meter" and adjust the antenna so you can get a lock on the station(s) Which weren't found by the receiver's "autoscan", and #2) - Add that/those stations manually to your "channel list" ....

How you acheive #1 or #2 can vary among different receiver models. From what you've found via the EPG guide info .. It sounds like #2 has probably already been taken care of for at least the stations D* has "proper" guide info on. But, you still may need to do some "work" concerning #1 -- On some receivers, in order to manually tune to the "actual channel" being used for a digital station, you might have to, for example for WLWT-DT punch in 35.1 ... With other receivers(usually ones that are OTA digital only), you could just tune to "35" ... With some receivers(My Hisense/USDTV receiver is like this), you can't "manually" tune directly to any "actual" RF digital station, and instead you have to go into it's menu system, and select an option that will allow you to individually "scan" a actual channel to see if it can pick up the remapping info ... If it does pick it up, from then on you tune to that station via it's remapped channel #'s/etc only.

The "autoscan" and remapping stuff is probably not all that clear -- but, again it's really not as complicated or "lengthy" as it might sound, and it will hopefully make more sense once you get your antenna hooked up and you start using your receiver for OTA digital/HD.

--------------------------------------

By the way -- It's generally rare, but there are times when stations are off air - usually for short periods ..... Which, with the way digital tv "works" can make it a little frustrating if you are trying to "adjust" your antenna at the time they are off air(especially as you probably don't KNOW whether they are on or off air) .... Of course, it's not really possible to "find" a signal, via autoscan or otherwise if it's off the air! --- For instance ... I noticed WKRC-DT 31(12.x remapped) was off air as recently as an hour ago, then they were on air at 1:30pm, and now they just went down again at 1:40pm. They were also down mostt of yesterday afternoon. WCPO-DT 10(9.x remapped) was also off air for a short period yesterday.

Noticed DD 5.1 is no longer "missing" from WCET-DT, as Soundstage HD is DD 5.1 tonight ... I was hoping they'd do a Zeppelin Cover! (Battle of Evermore) ...

They seem to be trying to make it right. The LG 4200a tuner never left the store it was being transferred from, so they are shipping it directly to me via UPS at no additional cost. With any luck I can post QAM test results on Monday evening.

They seem to be trying to make it right. The LG 4200a tuner never left the store it was being transferred from, so they are shipping it directly to me via UPS at no additional cost. With any luck I can post QAM test results on Monday evening.


You should be able to pick up several channels with insight. I'm in Taylor Mill, KY and with a Fusion 5 (HDTV Card) I can pick up all the national channels Insight has. 5,9,12,19, pbs... plus some other digitials, and lots of music channels.

Here's what I have so far, From memory.
73 - CET (4 sub channels or so)
100 (2 sub channels)
NBC & CBS (I think)
102 - KET (4 subchannels)
116
ABC & Fox

Some other digitals on channgel 79, 80, 81, 82 but I can't figure them out...

The rest seem to be music. Let me know what you come up with. Would be interested to see if you get some other channels that I have not found.


Dave

Was at the local Wal-Mart and perused through their off-air antennas.
For the heck of it, I bought a Philips indoor antenna, optimized for HD, for about 12 bucks.
It is 32db amplified...whatever that means.
I ran it to the receiver.
Now before we go any further, I figured that it was a shot in the dark considering I am in a family room, with two windows in the family room that look out into a window well between the houses. The window well is filled with gravel and holed out with a metal tub.
Hooked it up...rescanned the channels...a bunch more came up than the simple scan I did without it.
I was able to piddle with the signal strength meter that was read through the receiver.
Here is what I was able to pull in.
WLWT 5-1DT 100%
WLWT 5-1DT2 100% This was a weather channel from WLWT.
Was very giddy after getting those two readings....
WCPO 9-1 DT1 could get nothing better than 63...flucuated between 45-63%...got some audio, no picture. It was the same for DT2
Bummer.....
WKRC 12-1DT1 flucuated between 76-79%
WKRC 12-DT2 same as above, but a weather channel. Wasn't too bad.
Channels 14-1 DT through DT4 came in at 86%. Solid pictures. What network is 14?
Are those from Dayton?
WXIX 19-1 DT1 came in around 69 to 77%
19-2....The Tube???? What is that? They were playing music videos. Same reading as 19-1.
48...got nothing
54 and 64 came in around 63%.

Is WCPO a hard nut to crack?
There is another window I could try but that is likely more bloakced form he house next door.
Didn't try from atop the set, but figured the window offered me the best chance.
I guess I can try to move antenna around in some fashion, but WCPO was really jumpy.....could never control it over 70%, and it spent much of the time below 50%.

Lastly, is there an minimum reading to receive pretty good reception? The cutoff point? I thought I read 70% was OK.

Any other suggestions?
Here is the model that I bought.Philips (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=2625058&cat=4536&type=19&dept=3944&path=0%3A3944%3A3964%3A133270%3A4536&xsell=3904681)
I know when you think of electronics, WalMart doesn't ump out at you, but here is the link to the page of the ones they offer.
For those of you in the know, and from what background I have given you, is any of the other ones on this link.........will it improve my chances of getting a better all around signal, especially from WCPO?
Do any of the other Philips models do anything for you? Ala the one Philips model that looks like an arrow and is about 38 dollars?
TV Antennas-WalMart (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/search-ng.gsp?search_constraint=0&search_query=TV+Antennas&Continue.x=0&Continue.y=0&Continue=Find&ics=20&ico=0)
Thanks in advance...

DiamondD, Good to see you are getting such good results right off the bat with a $12 antenna purchase.

Hopefully you'll get some input for your questions from others as well, but here goes :


19-2....The Tube???? What is that? They were playing music videos. Same reading as 19-1.
...

It's called "multicasting". The different subchannels(19.1 19.2) are all coming from the same, digital station(WXIX-DT in this case), just as is the case with 5.1/5.2, 9.1/9.2, 12.1/12.2, 54.1~54.6/etc -- With digital, the station has 19.39 Megabits per second available "payload" data rate, and they can use that to send several different program streams, or a single HD stream, or HD+SD multicast service/etc.

Anyway, "The Tube" is a SD all music video channel offered by WXIX-DT .. It is something the folks that own WXIX, Raycomm Media are currently offering on their digital stations - I don't think you'll find it on cable or sat around here currently. You get Fox HD and Fox SD upconverts to 720p and local/syndicated SD programming from WXIX upconverted to 720p on 19.1, and "The Tube" on 19.2. Search this thread, or avsprogramming area for "tube" for more info.


48...got nothing


Judging by your post time -- They may have been off air when you checked it/did your scan. They normally go off air at around 12:30~1am(and come back up in the morning), but often on Sunday nights a little earlier -- last night I noticed they were down by midnight, or a bit earlier. They are the only station in the area which doesn't keep a 24/7 on air schedule.

On the other hand .. Of all the Cincinnati digital stations, they might be the most difficult to receive from your location(especially from indoors) as their transmitting antenna uses a directional pattern which does not favor the South. According to info on their facilities from FCC ... while they send 215KW ERP in most directions, they only send about 7.5KW ERP towards you - Which still shouldn't be a problem for you if you were using a outdoor antenna, but from indoors may be more troublesome.

If you're getting WSTR-DT 33(WB/WB HD remaps to 64.1) solid with indoor antenna, however that may be a good sign - as they are currently low power. Also, WCET 48 /WCET-DT 34(remaps to 48.x) transmits off WLWT 5/WLWT-DT 35(remaps to 5.x) tower, so, that it may be another good sign you are getting excellent results from WLWT-DT.


Channels 14-1 DT through DT4 came in at 86%. Solid pictures. What network is 14?
Are those from Dayton?


The station is WPTO-DT 28(remaps to 14.x), which trasmits from WXIX 19 tower - WPTO's Community of license is Oxford, Ohio, and that's where their analog(WPTO 14) transmitter is. They were "originally" going to transmit in digital off of WKOI 43(TBN) tower - which is near Oxford -- but, ended up on WXIX's tower instead. If I recall correctly, I *think* the reason they are not transmitting in digital from Oxford may be that their tower in Oxford won't support the additional weight/stresses you'd have with adding the transmitting antenna for their digital station as well.

The "main" network of affiliaton is PBS, Their "local" network is ThinkTV -- I.e. Greater Dayton Public Television. WPTO is WPTD Dayton's "sister station", they have completely different programming from WPTD, however. WPTO-DT runs 4 channel SD multicast most of the time, but also runs time-shifted PBS HD programming(different schedule than the other 3 Cincy/Dayton PBS HD affiliates) on Sat+Sun nights from 6pm~11pm nightly on what most of us see on 14-6, sounds like you might see that on 14-5, assuming it "works" with D*'s guide info. When they are running HD, it's alongside 2 SD services -- which sounds like you should have "14.1+14.2 SD - 14.3+14.4 "blank" during HD ....

You can find more info on all the stations in the area via the info+weblinks in the first post of this thread.



Is WCPO a hard nut to crack?


Not really, it probably shouldn't be anyway. YMMV of course. Besides moving antenna around to try to find a sweet spot(whether there is a house next door may not be as important as you might think, BTW), You might want to try a "non-amplified" VHF antenna. VHF is more susceptable to electrical interference(you'll often see this reffered to as "impulse noise) from various household appliances, that may be something you are dealing with, and the "amplified" part of the antenna could only be making it worse. Of course, when it comes to reception of the other stations you are receiving -- the amp in your current antenna may be helping more than hurting ....

IF it is impulse noise interference that's an issue ... You can check analog 9 (OTA) and see if there is a lot of interference("impulse noise interference looks like "sparkles"/STatic on analog stations), and if you minmize the "static" as much as possible on analog 9 by moving antenna around/etc, it should help you out on WCPO-DT 10(remaps to 9.x) as well.



Lastly, is there an minimum reading to receive pretty good reception? The cutoff point?


Yes, but what that minimum reading is differs among different receivers+I don't know the specifics of your particular receiver model. For instance, a "28" reading on a RCA DTC-100 is where a signal lock occurs, and a steady reading above 28 usually provides perfect reception. That number is 1/3 scale or approx 33% on the Zenith receiver I have, and seems to be around 50% on the USDTV/Hisense receiver I have.

Also -- perhaps of help --- These meters usually don't directly measure signal strength .. and are instead best thought of as a "signal quality" meter ....

The actual threshold required for "perfect" DTV reception is a signal that is allways at least 15.9db over noise. Uncorrectable multipath is also seen as noise by the receiver -- Anything except the "usuable" portions of the 8VSB signal itself is seen as noise by the reciever, in fact. Of course -- the "noise level" the recevier sees can be a variable thing -- due to, for instance -- dynamic multipath conditions(for example aircraft reflections), Impulse noise(lightning, electrical motors/vehicle ignition systems/etc), additional noise added by a "amplifier"(and or intermod from an overloaded amp), co-channel(such as from another station in another city broadcasting on the same channel and coming in via "DX" conditions) and other interference issues.


is any of the other ones on this link.........will it improve my chances of getting a better all around signal, especially from WCPO?


The outdoor ANT3036(outdoors or in the attic - outdoors better of course) is the only antenna at that link which would likely be significantly better for VHF reception. RS and Lowe's(CM) have similiar - almost identical really, VHF/UHF combo antennas with 120" boom. It's UHF capability is probably about the best on that page as well -- although, the other UHF only outdoor antenna(GEMDTV1) probably works about as well on UHF as the ANT3036's UHF section. Keep in mind, WCPO-DT is currently the only digital station in Cincinnati which transmits on VHF, the rest are UHF.

VHF wise, the best(and only one available really) "indoor" type antenna is rabbit ears.

UHF Wise - where the indoor antennas at the link are concerned ... The PHDTV1 would probably be best -- It's a log periodic UHF antenna, Just like a Zenith Silver Sensor. On VHF - for WCPO-DT -- It's probably not going to work as well as the VHF rabbit ears on your current antenna, however.

This one - ( http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=3904686 )They are calling the VHF/UHF Phillips "silver sensor" is NOT the same as a Zenith Silver sensor - I haven't heard anything about it, but looking at the pic It looks perhaps a bit snake-oilish to me. But, it does say the UHF section is log periodic, I guess that part is just hidden inside the silver "arrow"(looks like a Interstate highway sign to me) case. I would expect the PHDTV1, or an "actual" Zenith Silver sensor would be better on UHF. The VHF section(rabbit ears) isn't inherently any different from the antenna you are currently using -- perhaps the amp may be better, though who knows.

On another note -- As far as "amplfied" antennas go ... What we are generally looking for in a preamp/amp is one that is low noise(in which case the preamp can lower the overall noise factor of the system), and one that will not overload easily in strong signal locations. In weak signal areas, high gain/low noise amp is what we are looking for, "medium gain"/Low noise is often better for suburban locations. Generally, however if you are in a strong signal area, amplfied antennas are generally not recommended -- shouldn't hurt you too much from an "overload" perspective from indoors however -- The biggest problem is that indoors, the amp can probably make impulse noise and other RFI "worse" ...

A preamp or "amplfier" Can't actually give you more signal AT the antenna .. All a good, low noise amp can do is potentially lower the overall noise figure of the system(your receiver's "front end" "adds" some noise), and, the "gain" of the amp can allow you to recover signal losses from a long feedline run and/or splitting the signal. If the preamp is being overloaded by nearby strong signals(and not just necessarily strong TV signals, as these preamps are very broadband), however it can be more of a "minus" than a "plus" ...

I was thumbing through the channels and was picking up WCPO, fine this morning...go figure
Looks like I will just have to piddle around....
Thanks for all the help...

DiamondD ... I'd say it's fairly likely impulse noise type interference may be a probable cause for your WCPO-DT reception last night - If so(with antenna in the same place at least), you'll probably get it again when a nearby A/C compressor kicks on, or some other fan with a electric motor, oryou use your Dryer/etc, or if you get a nearby lightning strike, or vehicle with a funky ignition drives by/etc.

Anyway -- This might help with your piddling for WCPO -- Adjust the VHF (rabbit ear) portion of your antenna so it's 29" from Tip to tip(each "ear" extended or collapsed to be exactly 14.5" long) ... Usually, it should be best if the "ears" are placed in a horizontal posistion(as the signal is horizontally polarized), but YMMV ..

This makes the VHF section of your antenna a 1/2 wave dipole on VHF Channel 10(192~198MHZ).

A Better description of this "tweak", along with other info on "how to get the most out of rabbit ears" is here:

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html

And, you can find lots of excellent, mostly basic info(all which applies to digital/HD OTA reception as well(except "directly" speaking -- the pics of interference to analog TV signals) on "TV and FM Antenna Tips, FAQ, Reception Help, Interference and Amplifier Guide, etc" at the main page for above link here:

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennadex.html

Thanks for taking the time to post your findings. May I ask what level of service you have from Insight?

I use D*/OTA for HD primarily but I have Insight lifeline essentially for free because I am a Insight broadband customer. I plan to convert one of my HTPC's to HD so as to have a more open HD solution for the in the clear stuff and I am curious as to what I can get over QAM from Insight that I can't get OTA since that drives the price of the card/solution.

When you say you are getting other signals on 79, 80 et al do you mean there is a broadcast that you can't identify or ?

peace . . .


PS As a sidebar some interesting news on the PVR front is that Sage V3 (beta) supports HD (or starting to) and there is a nice(er) price on D*'s HD Tivo ($599 with $100 rebate= $499) that started today.




You should be able to pick up several channels with insight. I'm in Taylor Mill, KY and with a Fusion 5 (HDTV Card) I can pick up all the national channels Insight has. 5,9,12,19, pbs... plus some other digitials, and lots of music channels.

Here's what I have so far, From memory.
73 - CET (4 sub channels or so)
100 (2 sub channels)
NBC & CBS (I think)
102 - KET (4 subchannels)
116
ABC & Fox

Some other digitals on channgel 79, 80, 81, 82 but I can't figure them out...

The rest seem to be music. Let me know what you come up with. Would be interested to see if you get some other channels that I have not found.


Dave

sounds like a good candidate for the sensar :)

Well some of the other insight qam channels seem to be VOD and maybe a Showetime Digital channel of some time. I'm not sure what it is exactly cause I can't seem to find the show in any of the guides. it does tend to be a movie though.

I have digital with just about everything except broadband, I don't have HBO & Showtime HD cause I don't watch them. But I have a feeling that if you have a "lifeline" connection you should still get these channels as it seems they are filtering them at the cable box inside and not at the box outside. Just a guess though.

Dave

Some other digitals on channgel 79, 80, 81, 82 but I can't figure them out...

The rest seem to be music. Let me know what you come up with. Would be interested to see if you get some other channels that I have not found.

you have a good memory. 79-82 (with dozens of subs each) are definitely SD movie channels. I flipped through them twice, an hour apart and channels disappeared and reppeared. Notably one station showing the Spongebob movie at 8 was showing hardcore porn at 9... I did catch a reference to Starz on a couple of them. Wouldn't be suprised if it was all the movie channels though, bouncing around haphazardly. As you said, plenty of audio-only channels.

EDIT: nealy forgot that Bravo, FitTV and some educational channel was in there too. I passed by them quickly hoping I'd find ESPN-HD somewhere!

73 and its subs is WCET, but it didn't come in at all - extremely choppy. KET and its subs was in the hundreds somwhere, but there was no audio. ABC, CBS, NBC, and Fox all came in HD fine.

I took some notes, but cant get to them now. I recall the tech doing something at the demarc. box when we shut off our cable. Its very possible he put in a lowpass filter of somesort to block premium channels. We have insightbb for broadband, and for whatever reason therefore get the lifeline package free. Not that we ever watch it. I dunno if I'd call it free at $45/mo for broadband either...

Anyhow, I've already reattached the antenna - more HD there; free porn or not!

Diamond: Congrats, those are great results for a set-top antenna! WCET's broadcast pattern is directional to the north and is very difficult to pick up. We couldn't get it with our ols Samsung T151, and just barely get it with our LG-4200A -- shows alot of compression, or maybe that's CET's fault? :) If you got those results with a cheapo UHF loop, I'd strongly recommend you try the sensar or the rat shack bow-tie -- I'm a big fan of the latter, but it does require a soldering modification to get optimal results.

WCPO is the area's sole VHF DTV station. This can make it the odd man out so to speak. IIRC it was the one that gave me the most trouble when positioning the attic antenna.

BTW: those percentages are all hardware specific, so they are really only useful to you in adjusting your antenna. I could tune in WCVN-DT at 25% solid on the Samsung. Not sure what the new box reads: its so much nicer I havent played around with everything yet.

Day 2, and I am getting great reception for both of Channel 5 channels as well as Channel 12.
I had WCPO 9 coming in pretty well, but I started boogering with it and now it is gone.
Let me see if I have this straight.
The rabbit ears is the main receiver for WCPO, because it is VHF.
The hoop ring or the o-ring gets me the reception for the others(o-ring for uhf, rabbit ears for vhf?)?
One thing I found interesting,..whenever I had my hand on the 0-ring the reception for Channel 9 improved, but as soon as I took my hand off, it returned to jumbo.

It has been so long since I have ever dealt with an antenna.....

Should I stick with the antenna I have, or go with the Silver Sensor from Radio Shack?

The hoop ring or the o-ring gets me the reception for the others(o-ring for uhf, rabbit ears for vhf?)?
.....

Yep.


One thing I found interesting,..whenever I had my hand on the 0-ring the reception for Channel 9 improved, but as soon as I took my hand off, it returned to jumbo.


Everything nearby the antenna is somewhat "connected" to it(even you). See here:

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/stacking.html

I edited the previous post and asked your opinion as to whether I should try the Silver Sensor from Radio Shack, or stick with what I have.
It seems obvious to me, I will likely have to reposition the antenna for Channel 9 broadcasts, then move it back for things shows on Channels 12 and 5.

You all have been great...thanks again.
Saw on Channel 9 news last night, that they have finally settled on 2009, as they year when I assume network stations have to go digital or HD.
Some sets may be obselete and you may have ot get a certain box on your tv to receive channels.
Who does this benefit, the cable or sat user?

Dave and psm0110 I really appreciate you guys taking the time to post your findings. I guess if you get good OTA there isn't much advantage in having a QAM capable card with Insight. Still it might be nice to have as a backup and to tinker with.

peace . . .



you have a good memory. 79-82 (with dozens of subs each) are definitely SD movie channels. I flipped through them twice, an hour apart and channels disappeared and reppeared. Notably one station showing the Spongebob movie at 8 was showing hardcore porn at 9... I did catch a reference to Starz on a couple of them. Wouldn't be suprised if it was all the movie channels though, bouncing around haphazardly. As you said, plenty of audio-only channels.

EDIT: nealy forgot that Bravo, FitTV and some educational channel was in there too. I passed by them quickly hoping I'd find ESPN-HD somewhere!

73 and its subs is WCET, but it didn't come in at all - extremely choppy. KET and its subs was in the hundreds somwhere, but there was no audio. ABC, CBS, NBC, and Fox all came in HD fine.

I took some notes, but cant get to them now. I recall the tech doing something at the demarc. box when we shut off our cable. Its very possible he put in a lowpass filter of somesort to block premium channels. We have insightbb for broadband, and for whatever reason therefore get the lifeline package free. Not that we ever watch it. I dunno if I'd call it free at $45/mo for broadband either...

Anyhow, I've already reattached the antenna - more HD there; free porn or not!

It has been so long since I have ever dealt with an antenna.....


Your sat dish is a antenna .... and it's actually much more "finicky" to achieve good reception .... The higher frequencies used(above 10GHZ, the LNB on your dish "downconvert" the signals to below about 2.5Ghz so it can be sent via coax to your receiver) absolutely require clear line of sight(and an outdoor antenna) for reception.


I edited the previous post and asked your opinion as to whether I should try the Silver Sensor from Radio Shack, or stick with what I have.


I don't think Radio Shack carries the Zenith Silver Sensor. RS does carry an somewhat similar looking antenna, The Terk HDTVi - see here:

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D1872

Here is info(including pic) of The silver sensor:

http://www.zenith.com/sub_prod/product_Display.asp?cat=49&id=131

The Silver sensor is not an "amplified antenna", the Terk HDTVi is. The Silver sensor is a UHF ONLY antenna, the Radio shack info on the Terk HDTVi says it does Both VHF/UHF.

I haven't heard any reports from folks using the Terk HDTVi. Looking at it though, the UHF section(this is a log periodic design) looks pretty much exactly the same as the silver sensor. It looks exactly the same, actually. So, except for the amp(which could make things better or worse, depending upon circumstances+how "good" the amp is) I'm GUESSING it might perform about as well as a Zenith Silver Sensor on UHF, and I notice that in the "dimensions" info it says "height with dipoles adjusted= "42", so I assume it has a VHF "rabbit ear" section, that is not visable in the picture. IF you can adjust those rabbit ears into different configurations(horizontal, into a "V"/etc), then the VHF portion of it should perform at least as well as the VHF section on your current antenna.

*IF* the HDTVi performs as well as the silver sensor on UHF, than yes, on UHF it should perform better than your current antenna. HOWEVER -- It will also have better directivity on UHF than your current UHF loop antenna --- This is usually a good thing --- however, since WCVN-DT(KET) is roughly East of your location+all the other Cincinnati area towers are to your north, if you change to a antenna with better directivity than you are using now -- you may need to reaim antenna for WCVN-DT, instead of as per your report earlier, you seemed to indicate, except for WCET-DT --- you were getting all the UHF digitals(including WCVN-DT) with the antenna in one posistion.

What you *should* do is really up to you, I wouldn't feel comfortable giving you much of an "opinion", on that really.

It *might* be better to use a Zenith Silver sensor or RS DBT for UHF, and use a VHF/UHF combiner(such as CM#0549 mentioned in earlier post) OR perhaps(if overload/intermod issues isn't much of a problem) a good Low noise preamp with seperate VHF/UHF inputs(such as CM7777) to combine it with VHF rabbit ears -- This would let you place the seperate VHF/UHF antennas in different places, as well as position them "independantly". It would probably end up costing about the same(defintely more if you used a preamp such as CM7777) as the Terk HDTVi however, and *probably* wouldn't give you a "better" antenna -- other than being able to seperate the VHF/UHF sections.


Saw on Channel 9 news last night, that they have finally settled on 2009,


I also saw some things on the Network news reports last week concerning the shuttle which didn't quite "jive" with what the NASA officals were saying at the press briefings ;)

There certianly is a lot of support currently for a 2009 hard shut off date for analog OTA broadcasts ... Even the NAB has recently said they support a 2009 shut off date ... However, I don't think it is quite "set in stone" as of yet. Current law(established in Telecommunications act of 1996) says analog shut off at the end of 2006 OR when 85% of households in a market have the capability to receive digital signals -- the way it's going, that could be 2030 or later ... Congress must pass legislation to change this to the currently, generally widely supported by TPTB -- proposed 2009 shut off date.


as they year when I assume network stations have to go digital or HD.
Some sets may be obselete and you may have ot get a certain box on your tv to receive channels.


Most commercial stations(a major exeption being low power stations, translators/etc) were required to be on the air digitally by 5/1/2002. Most non-commerical stations(PBS/Etc) were required to be on the air digitally by 5/1/2003. There is no law or FCC rule that requires they broadcast HD, just digital. There were some exceptions(not a lot of these) for stations which, for various reasons weren't issued construction permits from FCC to build out their digital stations "in time" for them to have them up before the required on air dates, or were granted extensions for "valid" reasons, but the vast majority were on the air soon after those dates.

Top 4 affiliates in Markets #1~30 had a earlier required digital on air date -- 11/99 if I recall correctly ... Since Cincinnati was market #30 at that time(it's #32 now) .. This deadline applied to WLWT-DT, WKRC-DT, WCPO-DT and WXIX-DT. WLWT-DT was first to put a digital signal on the air .. reportedly on the day of their 50th aniversary in Feb 1998 -- Although -- WLWT-DT didn't have the capability to pass through NBC HD until early 2002. WCPO-DT (and WKRC-DT as well I think) was on the air by November 1998 and broadcast the "first" HD broadcast - The Glenn shuttle launch. "Generally" that's "accepted" to be the first HD broadcast - on a nationwide basis anyway ... however --- I think there were also some earlier HD broadcasts from "test stations" such as WRAL-DT in N.C. -- WXIX-DT(I think they were granted an extension) came up in late 2000 -- The next digital station on air in Cincinati was WCVN-DT in January 2002 .... The rest(except the LP stations - such as WBQC-CA - UPN which have yet to go digital -- FCC just released the rules for LP digital stations last fall) soon followed.


Who does this benefit, the cable or sat user?

OTA viewers and broadcasters are probably most effected by the digital transistion. Most significantly because OTA viewers without digital reception capability when the analog stations shut off will obviously lose the capability to receive the analog stations they watch - unless they buy a new TV with internal Digital OTA reciever, OR purchase a external digital receiver(or say a VCR with internal digital OTA tuner - IF we ever get those at all) to hook up to their current TV - OR are supplied with "subsidized" external receivers - this is a current matter of debate for those in congress -- who would get such a subsidy, how would they do it/etc/etc. By most estimates, there are around 17~20% -- or around 20 million U.S. Households that are OTA only(do not subscribe to cable or satellite) - That's about the same number of folks that subscribe to sat --- And about 60~80 million analog only TV's which USE OTA nationwide.

Broadcasters are/have been effected by the gov't mandated transistion to DTV because they've had to spend billions of $ to build out their DTV stations, and continue to operate and maintain those stations(along with their analog counterparts until analog shut off) -- So far, with very little to no oppurtunity to get any sort of return on that investment ...