73 and its subs is WCET, but it didn't come in at all - extremely choppy. KET and its subs was in the hundreds somwhere, but there was no audio.

If you did this yesterday evening/last night -- on the WCET part --- I don't know if this may have been related, and only had the chance to check my Zenith HDV420+not my other receivers last night, but did notice that yesterday evening/last night that(OTA of course) it couldn't "find" the PSIP for 48.1(CET-HD), so it couldn't decode PBS HD channel from them last night. I tried 34.1/"rescan" to see if it could find it, but it couldn't. It was decoding 48.3(PBS kids) and 48.5(CET plus or whatever) just fine at the time .. but, I also noticed that there was a "blank" placeholder there for 48.4 -- something that isn't normally present when they are in HD mode.

I just checked the Zenith+WCET-DT(in HD mode) at 6:48 PM tonight, and looks like they have it fixed now(I suspect a PSIP configuration issue on their end). 48.1/PBS HD, 48.3(PBS Kids) and 48.5(CET Plus) are all there, decoding and working just fine currently, and checked it prior to 5pm today and 48.3, 48.4, 48.5 were fine when they were in "SD mode" as well ... so I assume they "fixed" it ...

Also concerning WCET-DT+48.1 -- I did notice a couple nights ago that center channel audio was MIA during at least one or two programs ... So, maybe they are having some AC-3/ DD 5.1 "issues" which might explain why they weren't doing Any DD 5.1 that I noticed for quite sometime ...

----------------------------------

Anyway ... I wonder if the issues with you were seeing via insight QAM with WCET-DT+KET/WCVN is something others are seeing with #1)other models of QAM tuners, and or #2). any insight supplied STB's?

Just a suggestion, but you might want to send insight a report concerning the isuses you were seeing with the LG using QAM, as well as PM a report about the KET part to AVSmember/KET engineer William Smith, and a report to WCET on the WCET part to WCET ... WCET contact info here : http://www.cetconnect.org/contact

Diamond: ignore my recommendation for the double bow-tie, I'm operating on very little sleep and constantly forget about WCPO being VHF. The bow-tie is UHF only. As for the boogering, this is the main reason people get fed up and erect a bigger antenna in their attic or roof.

Jeff: Given it was only about 15 minutes of testing about an hour or so apart; I'm not confident in making my results "conclusive". However, given the position of my TV and the wall plates, etc. switching the sources is a PITA. I'd put a switch in there, but I'm pretty sure we'd lose a good deal of broadcast quality.

I can't offer an insight :) into the other boxes, etc.. but KET-HD has occassionally had audio problems and weird displays declaring KET6 on 54-4. I've been too busy to watch tv very much the past couple weeks though. That was one the ol Sam 151, though its only problem, aside an old design, was losing its red channel constantly.

Also, I'm not a subscriber to Insight's lifeline package per se. I get it de facto via my Insight broadband subscription. So I'd rather not call them up and draw attention to it, for fear they'd come out here and screw up my cable connection, forcing me to DSL or other horrors.

I can't offer an insight :) into the other boxes, etc.. but KET-HD has occassionally had audio problems and weird displays declaring KET6 on 54-4. .

On the "KET6" on KET4 -- I think You'll only see that near top of hour - You'll see a list of the KET transmitters as well .... They are doing this for a "legal" TOH ID I believe ... better to have it that way with a proper ID than no HD at all IMO ...

On KET4 audio problem during HD ... I've rarely noticed it occuring here when I've been watching but I think it happened early last week, and think I recall pestering William about it a couple of times in the past ... William posted info on what causes it, and how to contact the control room+let them know about it in this post in Lexington thread :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5946729&&#post5946729


I've been too busy to watch tv very much the past couple weeks though.


I don't think you've missed much ... I haven't watched much either this summer, but usually have a TV on so I can Monitor things out of corner of my eye ... Let's see ... NASA TV, HD "Soundstage" last week, The PBS HD Nova on the Mars rovers and a couple of other PBS HD or widescreen shows, and BSG season 2 episodes have been about it for me over the past few weeks ...

Your Right... I'm cheating....

Rather than tie up a $20K encoder for just the HD ID, I'm switching to a feed from the KET6 encoder (located in the Capitol Dome no less) that is being fed back here via Microwave..


I'm still chasing the audio issue but think I have it narrowed down...

I change the input on the PBS receiver to make the system run the ID. The audio during the PBS breaks is 2.0 .. the show audio can be 5.1 and the Dolby encoder has trouble re-locking after the switch. The cure is to reset the receiver or re-tune the feed... I'm going to adjust the ID times back a little to make the system switch when its on 2.0 and before the 5.1 show starts..

You should be able to pick up several channels with insight. I'm in Taylor Mill, KY and with a Fusion 5 (HDTV Card) I can pick up all the national channels Insight has. 5,9,12,19, pbs... plus some other digitials, and lots of music channels...
The rest seem to be music. Let me know what you come up with. Would be interested to see if you get some other channels that I have not found.
Dave
I have a Fusion 3 Gold-T tuner card, and I thought I would share what I can get with TWC in cincinnati, westside.
84-1 NBC Channel 5
84-2 Annenberg CPB daytime, WCVN-DT night/weekedns
84-3 KET1 84-4 KET2 84-5 KET3
84-6 NBC weather
85-1 CET 85-2 CET 85-3 CET (WXIX-DT Fox sometimes shows up at 85-1 w/out sound)
90-1 buggy music video channel
106-1 CSPAN3
107-1 CBS WKRC
117 Shopping channel
118 Religion channel
119 BET Jazz
120 CMT
Please PM me with changes or if you know how to get FOX working. These are all in the clear digital QAM (not necessarilty HD). I am leaving out some on-demand crap from the list. It should be noted, the DVICO Fusion software is still buggy.

Here is a summary of the notes I took while scanning through QAM channels on Insight.

73-* WCET-DT. On 8/1 this was very broken up and unviewable
79-* Movies
80-* Movies
81-* Movies
82-* Movies and TV: National Geographic, WWF 24/7, and Barney (Dinosaur) appeared throughout these sub channels somewhat randomly.
79 through 82 seemed to have a maximum of 11 sub channels each, with roughly half showing content at any given time and in no apparent order.

88-1 PPV Promo screen
87-21+ Audio
90-21+ Audio
92-11 ESPN PPV screen
100-1 WKRC-DT HD
100-3 WLWT-DT HD
101-5+ Audio with informational screen
102-3,4,5,6 WCVN-DT KET1-4 in order, although no sound during review.
105-10 Bravo
105-14 ESPN Classic
105-21+ Audio
107-* Audio
110-2 FitTV
116-1 WCPO-DT HD
116-2 WXIX-DT HD

84-2 Annenberg CPB


If this is from KET/WCVN-DT, on 84-2 you should get PBS HD channel 8~11pm nightly(I think 7~11pm on sunday - KET transcodes PBS HD to 720p for broadcast) and CPB/Annenburg(SD) the rest of the time.


85-1 CET 85-2 CET 85-3 CET (Fox sometimes shows up at 85-1 w/out sound)


Is there any correlation between when Fox(WXIX-DT I presume) shows up, and whether WCET-DT is in either "SD mode" or "HD Mode?" ... IF so, Maybe it's having a hard time figuring out what is going on with WCET-DT's daily(except the weekends these days) changes in datastreams/PSIP info.

WCET-DT's current schedule shows they are in "HD mode(CET HD+2 SD multicast subchannels) M-F 5pm~1am and all the time Sat+Sun. They are in SD mode the rest of the time. From what I understood from them last time I talked to them - "SD mode" from WCET-DT should 4 channel SD multicast for cable, currently 3 channel SD for OTA as they are currently experimenting with making a portion of their OTA bandwidth available for emergency communications for first responders.


90-1 buggy music video channel


Is this "The Tube"? If so, it's the first I've heard of it being carried by local cable. WXIX-DT (Fox Cincinnati) Has "The Tube"(all music videos), OTA as a SD multicast subchannel.

Nitewatchman,

Any news from WCPO on when they are doing the upgrade? They "promised" that it would be fixed by Monday Night Football and the first MNF game is this coming Monday.

ktarkington,

See these posts on the last page :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5908131&&#post5908131

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5938985&&#post5938985

If this is from KET/WCVN-DT, on 84-2 you should get PBS HD channel 8~11pm nightly(I think 7~11pm on sunday - KET transcodes PBS HD to 720p for broadcast) and CPB/Annenburg(SD) the rest of the time. Not sure about that. From what I can tell, it is the CPB Channel (http://www.learner.org/channel/channel.html). Yes, after 8PM it switches to a PBS HD stream. I cannot tell if it is WCVN-DT however.

Is there any correlation between when Fox(WXIX-DT I presume) shows up, and whether WCET-DT is in either "SD mode" or "HD Mode?" ... IF so, Maybe it's having a hard time figuring out what is going on with WCET-DT's daily(except the weekends these days) changes in datastreams/PSIP info.I tried to tune FOX at 85-1 (yes, WXIX-DT) before 8PM and it was black. WCET 85-2 (Kids) was in SD while 85-3 was HD.
Is this "The Tube"? If so, it's the first I've heard of it being carried by local cable. WXIX-DT (Fox Cincinnati) Has "The Tube"(all music videos), OTA as a SD multicast subchannel.It is/was not the Tube. It is not coming in now. I saw the Tube while I was playing with OTA.
Of note, I do not get a ABC channel.

Not sure about that. From what I can tell, it is the CPB Channel (http://www.learner.org/channel/channel.html). Yes, after 8PM it switches to a PBS HD stream. I cannot tell if it is WCVN-DT however.


I'm sure it is from KET4 - Either from WCVN-DT or one of the other KET transmitters, such as WKON-DT. I know of nothing else that "switches" SD to HD on the same program service .... They also transcode PBS HD from 1080i to 720p for broadcast ..... You'll see an hourly KET ID on it as well - scrolling across top of screen during CPB/Annenburg programming, and as discussed earlier during PBS HD Channel programming ... See here for more info about KET digital :

http://www.ket.org/dtv/

Update: I hope these posts aren't causing William to think about searching for his KET4 Logo disk ---- It is Soooo nice for example, to be able to watch Soundstage HD with NO bugs whatsoever on screen .... Besides, "KET4" shows up in PSIP, anyway ....


I tried to tune FOX at 85-1 (yes, WXIX-DT) before 8PM and it was black. WCET 85-2 (Kids) was in SD while 85-3 was HD.


As noted in my last post WCET-DT is now switching to "HD mode" at 5pm M-F(HD all the time on weekends), and it USED to be 7pm(for the last 2 years) not 8pm.

PBS actually runs a national feed of PBS HD channel that is available to stations 24/7, but many stations don't utilize it 24/7 and instead utilize their bandwidth during periods of their schedule for increased SD multicasting, or datacasting services. WPTD-DT Dayton runs PBS HD channel 6pm~6am nightly - for example -- from 11pm~2am -- It seems to be like a "west coast feed" and repeats what ran 8pm~11pm ET.

Anyway, those were just some ideas to potentially try to help you troubleshoot the issues you are having, FWIW.


Of note, I do not get a ABC channel.


Yeah, seems like you ought to be getting WCPO-DT .... Including ABC HD and maybe WCPO-DT's SD weather channel ... Of course, hard to say WHY you aren't seeing it ... I thought TW Cincy carried one or both of The ThinkTV(PBS/etc) digital stations(WPTO-DT Oxford transmits off WXIX tower in Cincy - and Maybe WPTD-DT Dayton) as well ..

I don't think TW Cincy carries WB HD from WSTR-DT yet, so you would have to use OTA for that(Or say most of the Dayton digital/HD stations whose coverage area for the most part reaches a bit South of Ohio river ), anyway ....

Curious, I am picking up the WCPO-DT feed pretty well, but the DT2 channel with the weather...all I am getting is the sound.
The other two main networks hae a either a radar or weather numbers running...

Curious, I am picking up the WCPO-DT feed pretty well, but the DT2 channel with the weather...all I am getting is the sound.


Seems like I recall Jim Tressler reported getting the same thing with his newer D* receiver.

I think it most likely could be one of two things causing this - I'm guessing it's probably #2 below, but who knows.

#1). Might be an issue involving D* EPG and integration with the PSIP/MPEG2 info the station is sending via it's OTA signal. Although, I don't recall others with "older" D* receivers having this problem. And -- Since it is finding the audio stream just fine, I sort of doubt this is the issue, but who knows. If your receiver lets you do it, you could try "not" using PSIP by tuning to "10.2" (or maybe 10.4 now - long story), instead of the PSIP remapped(or via D* guide info) 9.2 to see if that works.

#2). As described in better detail in the latter portion(the paragraph starting with "BTW") of dr1394's post here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=4970734&&#post4970734

WCPO-DT is sending a resolution of 528x480i on their 9-2(Remapped) weather Tracker channel. While 528x480i is commonly used by digital cable, and is commonly used with MPEG2 -- HOWEVER -- IT IS NOT a "standard" resolution listed in our ATSC digital television "standard" ( A list of "standard" ATSC resolutions used is here : http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/what_is_ATSC.html ) -- As shown in the list at hdtvprimer -- There are a number of 4x3 and 16x9 SD resolutions supported by ATSC, but they are all either 640x480 or 704x480.

Now -- from what I can tell from reports here+my own experience -- MOST ATSC(OTA DTV) receivers (including those from D*) don't seem to be having much, if any problems decoding the 528x480 WCPO-DT is sending ... and - ALL ATSC receivers(Which do MPEG2 decoding) SHOULD probably decode it just fine ... but, of course ... since 528x480i isn't "specifically" in the ATSC resolution tables .... "Should" doesn't necessarily mean "will" ...

I can tell you that All 4 DTV receiver's I've owned(RCA DTC-100, Zenith HDV420, Hisense/USDTV DB-2010, Internal OTA/ATSC receiver in a Sony KD-34XBR960 HDTV) decode it, and display's video from WCPO-DT's Weather channel just fine .. A slight Exception being that the Zenith does show some "weird flashing bars" on the sides of the frame that shouldn't be there, in an area which is normally hidden by a display's overscan.

-----------------------

In any event -- You might want to contact WCPO enginnering, and perhaps D* as well and report this issue, so they know it's going on with some receivers ...

Interesting topic.. I was about to post the same.. my hughes htl-hd has no problem with 9-2 - my friends h10 does not get it - audio only .. and now my fusion hdtv5 gets audio only too.. weird..

jim

I have an H10 and can't get 9-2 either. In fact I have to select it, then select again it in the guide (even tho its on that station) even to get audio.

In the past I couldn't get anything at all on 12-2 either but now I get the nifty local radar. If there should be audio I don't get it.

The H10 has been problematic (guide problems et al) but D* is currently rolling out new firmware (many have received it) so with any luck this issue was addressed with everything else.

The good news for me is that this very second UPS just pulled up with an HD Tivo. We'll see how that gets them.

Hmmm the box looks like it was run over by a bus, heh.


peace . . .

Interesting topic.. I was about to post the same.. my hughes htl-hd has no problem with 9-2 - my friends h10 does not get it - audio only .. and now my fusion hdtv5 gets audio only too.. weird..

jim

In the past I couldn't get anything at all on 12-2 either but now I get the nifty local radar. If there should be audio I don't get it.


WKRC-DT added 12-2 earlier this summer/spring. Last we heard from weasel, he said it was there for "testing" purposes. There is no audio on 12-2, so you aren't missing anything there ...

---------------------------------------------

I have noticed there has been an increase in noticable MPEG2 compression artifacts during bandwidth demanding portions of CBS HD programming on 12-1 since they added the SD multicast radar ... Maybe not as bad as it was when they were doing "webhopper", but probably close ...

For example I did a A/B comparision during HD "I Am Sam" movie last Sunday between WKRC-DT and WHIO-DT - CBS HD Dayton(WHIO-DT is not multicasting, currently) -- Near the end there was a scene where Sean Penn's character was a "referee", making some interesting "movements" on the field .... Well, MPEG2 compression artifacts galore from WKRC-DT during this scene, only some very minor visable compression artifacts during this scene from WHIO-DT, and you had to almost press your nose up to a large screen to see them ....

That's for a HD transfer from film, which typically probably won't be as bandwidth demanding as say -- portions of Live HD sports programming ... Unless they make the wise choice to drop the radar, I expect things will even be worse for CBS HD NFL football ....

---------------------------------------------------

Back to "weather" info channels ... --- Interestingly enough .... This afternoon for the first time I've ever noticed -- WCPO is switching to local severe weather break in's ON 9-2 as well as 9-1 (and the analog) ...

Another note concerning WCPO-DT's weather channel(Weather Tracker 9) ... I think is somewhat interesting .... I noticed that their weather staff are now promoting it on air ... However, although they mention that Insight and TW carries it, they do NOT mention the fact that it is also available via digital OTA broadcast like WLWT-DT does with their "WeatherPlus" channel promos ...

Kudos to WLWT for actually PROMOTING, and for that matter even SAYING anything at all about their OTA digital services ...

However, OTOH -- personally -- for what I'm looking for concerning weather info ... I must say I find weatherplus quite useless compared to WCPO's weather channel, and not just because I think 1080i+Multicasting should be a no-no ...For instance -- 1/2 the time I've tuned to 5.2, It's either been a commercial running, or weather info(even local radars) for other parts of the country ... WCPO's weather allways gives me everything I need/want to see in a few minutes time ... Not only local forcast/conditions+local radar, but also regional radar, Maps of the frontal systems/etc ...

I hope WCPO-DT's weather channel doesn't end up going downhill because of weatherplus ....

AS for WKRC-DT's radar as long as I'm giving my opinion ... I like their radar the best of the local Cincinnati stations ... However -- If it compromises HD PQ during "bandwidth demanding" portions of programming, it(or anything else on any other station) has to go IMO ... I think ANALOG SD OTA PQ provides much better quality than HD if it is chock full o' MPEG2 compression artifacts during bandwidth demanding sections of programming ..... It is, after all a FCC rule that requires digital stations to provide at least ONE service(it could be SD) that is "equivilent in quality" to the analog station .... I would interpet that to mean 100% of the time ... I dunno how they would ever make the "judgement" required to enforce such a rule, however as it might pertain to MPEG2 compression artifacts/bitrate/resolution/etc/etc .....

Did anyone catch Bandits last night on WCPO?? - I recorded it with the fusion5 and watched the first 5 minutes while demoing my htpc to a friend today.. kudos to wcpo that it was in hd (at least the first 5 minutes) .. saw only a few jaggies.. but they are still there.. although it did look better.. I will watch it more indepth to see if they have fixed or at least improved the issue. jim

I didn't look at it long enough to check for staircase pattern(jaggies) in the program material, but I checked the Bug, and took a quick look at the "detail difference" during the movie last night with a A/B comparision with ABC HD from WKEF-DT Dayton -- What I saw was Staircase pattern still visable on WCPO-DT around the ABC bug, which was perfectly "smooth" on WKEF-DT ... Still seeing more "detail" from ABC HD from WKEF-DT(720p of course) as well ... In other words, seemed to me it was pretty much the same from WCPO-DT as it has been during ABC HD since around this time last year ....

Friday afternoon, I did take a look at one of the ABC(SD) soaps that runs 3-4pm -- and I thought it looked better on both analog 9 and WCPO-DT than what I'm used to from ABC SD ... I think I was just seeing things though, as I looked Friday night during Kimmel and it didn't look any different ... OF course, I can't recall ever even looking at the soaps on ABC before, so it wasn't a very good PQ check ...

--------------------------------

As long as I'm posting - Some other notes concerning other Cincy stations/missing HD/etc. in the past week or so follow :

I thought at one point that WCPO-DT had the ABC HD feed up for that CMA show - but, even though WKEF-DT apparenlty had it in HD throughout, when I checked it a little later on a few times, it was SD upconvert from WCPO-DT ..

WXIX-DT missed Widescreen for at least some(or all) of that new Fox Dance show last week, it was widescreen from WRGT-DT, Dayton ... The show that follwed it was HD on both stations, however ...

Also noticed audio has been mostly missing from WXIX-DT's "The Tube" for the past few days ... I don't think it's on my end, as this is the case with all 3 receivers here, and I did hear some bits of audio intermittantly coming from "The Tube", I think it was late Friday night ...

--------------------

NBC NASCAR HD from Indy seems to perhaps look better on both WLWT-DT/WDTN-DT today than earlier NBC NASCAR HD race this year, or that HD sports show they had a while back with the HD motocross racing/etc ...... (update: Or maybe I'm just seeing things if current reports on the Thread in programming area are any clue -- LOL) ... Maybe backhaul issues concerning the uplink from the venue/net feed/etc ... has perhaps had something to do with what we were seeing, including during Olympics last year ?

There are still more MPEG2 compression artifacts from BOTH stations than there should be, IMO . I certianly don't recall having that "opinion" during 2002 HD Olympics, 2002/03/04 HD Triple Crown, or 2004 Daytona 500 HD from WLWT-DT ...

I think WDTN-DT may have a slight PQ "edge" now however -- I say *May*, because if there is a difference it's not much to my eyes ... Used to be the other way around, of course before "weather plus" .... Both could still likely be better IMO .... For those that don't receive the Dayton stations -- WDTN-DT does DD 5.1 and multicasts a SD simulcast of analog station which looks to be fairly low bitrate -- I certianly wouldn't be able to watch the SD sub digital during sports.


Oh well ... certianly looks better than TNT SD via E* ....

Well, time for staircased, lego'd, jaggies for Monday Night Football!! I can't wait to sooth my football fix. Unfortunately I will have to watch it in SD since the HD feed from WCPO will bug the living crap out of me.

i will be recording the game with the fusion5 tonight and will take some screen captures.. should look like crap!

Well, It looks like crap already. I'm heading back to SD WCPO. So much for having it fixed by the time Monday Night Football starts.

Hall of fame game on MNF HD looks great tonight on WKEF-DT Dayton ....

WKEF-DT 51(22.1 remap)ABC HD Dayton predicted coverage area map here(note - When Doc lived in Florence, he reported picking them up just fine with a yagi in the attic - YMMV of course ) :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT562360.html

Other possible "jaggie free" options depending upon your location:

WTVQ-DT 40 (36.1 remap), ABC HD Lexington, KY predicted coverage :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1069750.html

WHAS-DT 55 (11.x remap) ABC HD, Louisville, KY predicted coverage:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT602073.html

WRTV-DT 25 (6.1 remap) ABC HD, Indy predicted coverage:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1057600.html

WSYX-DT 13 (6.1 remap) ABC HD, Columbus, OH predicted coverage:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT674641.html

I'm not sure if WCHS-DT 41 (remap 8.x) Huntington/Charleston is passing ABC HD or not ... But, for completeness, here's their coverage map for anyone on the "far east/SE" side ....

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT702523.html

----------------------

Note that it is often possible, given the "right" antenna setup and the "right" terrain situation to receive stations from a bit beyond their predicted coverage areas ....

---------------------------------

On another note -- Noticed WXIX-DT has audio back for "The tube" tonight ...

agreed looks like crap.. I may need to find a "permannt" solution for the dayton abc.. I have also captured from the fusion some screen shots that I will post tomorrow.. jaggies a plenty!!!

Kind of off the subject, but is there a reason why the audio through D* is much lower than with cable?
I have XM sat myfi and the sound is really good there on most stations, actually better than the radio feeds.
Curious as to why the sound is much lower through D* than cable....

I have several direct screen caps of last nights wcpo botching of mnf, but I cant post them as there is a 640x480 limit on attachments.. pm me if you want to see them and I will shoot them via email

jim

Jim,

FWIW, If you do happen to decide you want to post any of that here, I wouldn't resample/resize/etc. the images, but you could use a image editing program and do a bit of cropping and just use some of the "jaggie filled" sections(so they'll "fit" in the max image rez requirement for attached files) of the frame, instead of the entire 1280x720 -- It is however Probably a good idea to have comparison screenshots with another source of ABC HD using the exact same JPG compression settings/etc for both images though, so that, for example jpg compression artifacts can't be potentially perceived as a possible explanation ....

Along with keeping the digital camera shots, (i.e. camera settings/posistion/etc) and jpg compression settings exactly the same for both the shots of WKEF-DT+WCPO-DT, That is what I did anyway for the sceenshot comparisons between "jaggies" from WCPO-DT and "non-jaggie" ABC HD from WKEF-DT I attached to following posts here last year(I sent these to WCPO as well) :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=4595326&&#post4595326

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=4595107&&#post4595107

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=4595134&&#post4595134

BTW ... The screenshot comparison from one of the posts at links above of the WCPO-DT Jaggies on the yellow stripe on the announcer's handheld mike looked exactly the same from last year MNF HD as it did last night ... It's actually a little worse in "real life" than the digital camera shots which I had to slightly defocus in order to remove moire pattern(A photography "artifact" that happens with "in focus" close ups of a image on a CRT ) ....

-----------------------

All,

I don't want to make excuses for them ... but -- Just to clarify .... I could be wrong but I don't believe WCPO engineering has ever explicitly PROMISED they would have it fixed by the first MNF HD game this season .... At least, What they told me was that they would do everything they could so that their signal would be "pristine" by the time Football season started .... Since they last told me this months ago(and upgrades were planned for sometime in august even at that time), they very well may not have expected a early August HD game ....

From what they've told me ... I personally believe they have every intention to do their best to have it fixed "soon", but OTOH, knowing how such things can sometimes be "delayed", and having lived with such issues as Pre Fox HD - Fox "weirdscreen" from WXIX-DT for a number of years .... I am certianly not counting on it actually being fixed "soon" ....

If for any reason you want them on the web I have space you can use.

peace . . .

tim

good idea jeff.. never thought of that..

tim - if people want them and you want to host thats cool.. but I dont know how many people besides us care :)

jim

=================

Excellent choices Jim -- Great job ....

Also, besides for "we that care", if it comes up on other threads, such as in programming/area/etc a link to your pics should be better than 1,000 words(or more) to show what is going on with WCPO-DT/what ABC HD has looked like in Cincinnati for about a year now ....

I've starting using www.imageshack.us for posting captures.

http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/1696/bk10826es.th.jpg (http://img353.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bk10826es.jpg)

Ron

After you open the image click on it again to view it at full size.

http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/3396/snapshotj00036nn.th.jpg (http://img365.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshotj00036nn.jpg) http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/9499/snapshotj00092iu.th.jpg (http://img365.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshotj00092iu.jpg) http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/2003/snapshotj00106ed.th.jpg (http://img365.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshotj00106ed.jpg)
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/4383/snapshotj00137wl.th.jpg (http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshotj00137wl.jpg) http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/1866/snapshotj00214rm.th.jpg (http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshotj00214rm.jpg) http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/9853/snapshotj1cs.th.jpg (http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshotj1cs.jpg)

Above screen captures are from the WCPO broadcast of Monday Night Football (MNF) on August 8 2005. Screen captures were generated by jim tressler.

no jaggies there :)

I've starting using www.imageshack.us for posting captures.

http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/1696/bk10826es.th.jpg (http://img353.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bk10826es.jpg)

Ron

I like Ron's image MUCH better than the rest that are posted here! :)

Looks like at least folks in Boston(and NFL network HD tomorrow - whoever has that) will get to see the Pats vs. Bengals game tonight in HD -- See here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=569019

and/or here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6021118&&#post6021118

and/or here :

(Note : first time I went to following link, the story popped up just fine, but when I tried it a 2nd time and it asked for registration) :

http://www.boston.com/sports/other_sports/articles/2005/08/12/hd_gets_exhibition_workout/?page=1

---------------------

Probably no reason for me to wait for the delayed coverage on WKRC or WRGT, so Guess I might as well just watch it live tonight on WCMH 4 (analog OTA), Columbus, unless conditions are up a bit and WCMH-DT is making it through WPTO 14.

So not only we get to watch delayed game but we also dont get it in HD?

That seems likely Dimitriz ...

Anyway, we'll see, but somehow I have a feeling the pats might approach this game a little "differently" than seemed to be the case last year ....

One thing is for sure .. It going to be awfully warm for a football game ...

That seems likely Dimitriz ...

Anyway, we'll see, but somehow I have a feeling the pats might approach this game a little "differently" than seemed to be the case last year ....

One thing is for sure .. It going to be awfully warm for a football game ...

Thanks..

Any idea why they are delaying the game? I thought the game is sold out. (not sure whare the other reasons for the delay)

In the worst case they should broadcast it in HD. Like the station in Boston that will be showing it on time in HD, would they have their camera crews at the game? I would assume they will piggyback the Local12 cameras instead to save some $.

Dimitriz,

I don't think it's sold out ... I think that is why it's delayed in Cincinnati+Dayton markets ... Columbus is far away enough for the NFL rules(well, except for some of us depending on location, and who use OTA+have outdoor, directional hi-gain Lo-VHF antennas) that WCMH schedule says they are running it live ....

On WCPO's Noon news they said plenty of tickets were still available and that they were hoping for a large "walk in" crowd ...

The Boston Globe article said that a Boston Station was doing the HD production(live tonight) and that NFL Network is airing a number of preseaon games in HD, Including this one, but not until tomorrow afternoon ... I don't know, but I would guess that the Bengals "TV network" for preseason games will probably do a completely seperate production(different cameras/etc) ...

Of course, there's also the issue of the time delay ... I could be wrong but I don't think WKRC-DT (or WRGT-DT) have the capability to do time-delayed HD and insert all the necessary ads/etc ....

I'll be able to watch WCMH 4 analog OTA, but probably not WCMH-DT(digital/HD) unless band conditions are favorable ... ... IF they are, I'll check and see what they are doing to see if it is HD(I doubt it though) ...

Even if it were live, the Boston station and/or the NFL network would probably want WKRC to chip in for the upcharge for the HD truck in order to have the HD feed.

Doc

Well I am finally getting PSIP data from WXIX! Its only been 7 months!

Watching football game on WKRC, wow does it look bad! Ghosty image for some reason, both digital and analog, there is also some waves around the peoples heads during commercials. Kinda makes me happy to know WKRC doesn't do all the games.

Any info on WBQC lately? Hopefully WCPO gets their act together during the next month.

For those who may have missed the article on the AVS home page, there is a really nice web site that lists all the games scheduled for HD broadcasts. Listings are for regional areas as well as the national listings. They even had the conclusion of todays PGA start time of 10am EST listed.

May have already been listed by a poster in this thread..not sure as haven't caught up on the recent listings. If so, here it is again. Great resource -

www.hdsportsguide.com

Thanks for the link!

I love that site. I've added their RSS feeds to Bloglines and it makes it a breeze to keep up with everything that's on.

Thanks..

Any idea why they are delaying the game? I thought the game is sold out. (not sure whare the other reasons for the delay)

In the worst case they should broadcast it in HD. Like the station in Boston that will be showing it on time in HD, would they have their camera crews at the game? I would assume they will piggyback the Local12 cameras instead to save some $.


Thought I might chime in since I worked the game for the Bengal network. You will almost never see two feeds come out of one truck for football. Directors in football use cams 1, 2, and 3 (20, 50, 20) differently on almost every play. One is a play cam, one an iso cam, and one a tight follow cam. It makes it very difficult for the director in the secondary truck to know which cam is going to be the play cam. Bengal TV and the Pats TV also rolled breaks in from the truck which, again,
makes it tough on the director to know when to go to break and get out cleanly. We did actually use 3 of the cams (downconverted) from the other truck, but they seldom went on live. They were mostly for replays.

The other issue is getting the HD feed back to the station for broadcast. The signal was uplinked from the stadium in SD, not sent on fiber. WKRC could have used VYVX fiber for an HD feed to the station but I don't believe their VYVX pop has the bandwidth.

Sharing feeds and cameras on live events is still very difficult and usually results in a very sloppy show.

That's very interesting information, thanks for sharing.

peace . . .


Thought I might chime in since I worked the game for the Bengal network. You will almost never see two feeds come out of one truck for football. Directors in football use cams 1, 2, and 3 (20, 50, 20) differently on almost every play. One is a play cam, one an iso cam, and one a tight follow cam. It makes it very difficult for the director in the secondary truck to know which cam is going to be the play cam. Bengal TV and the Pats TV also rolled breaks in from the truck which, again,
makes it tough on the director to know when to go to break and get out cleanly. We did actually use 3 of the cams (downconverted) from the other truck, but they seldom went on live. They were mostly for replays.

The other issue is getting the HD feed back to the station for broadcast. The signal was uplinked from the stadium in SD, not sent on fiber. WKRC could have used VYVX fiber for an HD feed to the station but I don't believe their VYVX pop has the bandwidth.

Sharing feeds and cameras on live events is still very difficult and usually results in a very sloppy show.

Saw this mentioned elsewhere on the Forum: http://www.wmtw.com/station/4858119/detail.html

Discussion thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=570007

Don't know if that bodes well for the WCPO jaggies problem or not. My apologies, Jeff, if you've already posted this.

Doc

Thanks for posting that Doc ...

Saw Rory B's thread this morning, but have been too busy past few days for anything much more than "lurk" mode ...

That's very interesting information, thanks for sharing.

peace . . .

Ditto that here ...

Well, I just got of the phone with an engineer at WCPO, that admitted he is the last to hear about things, but he said that they haven't heard about the HD feed being turned off next week and that they may upgrade their HD equipment by next year instead of before MNF. This seemed to be big news to me. Does anybody else have a reliable source at WCPO that may know more?

-Concerned

Help with Ch.9 woes !!!!,is it my understanding that WCPO is having continued problems with there digital feed.I have a HD 811 Reiciever via E* account and my OTA that I use is a Winegard SS with a amp.Every channel in the Cincy area I am getting a 90 or better on the strength meter.Even getting Channel 2 and 7 out of Dayton with readings in the 70+ range depending on the weather etc.My question do any of you guys have any ideals what I can try to do to improve my signal situation.The best I seem to be able to pull in on a good day is a 69-70 in which the picture will freeze up and become "LOST" eventually.Most of the time I get a 00 or a 49 on the meter.I call the engerineers at WCPO and they inform me that the equipment is working just fine and problem must be on my end.Any help or suggestions what so ever would be greatly appreicated.By the way I reside in Florence,Ky. near CVG.

NKY. Yall,

First off, Welcome to AVS.

A few things that will hopefully help you out follow.

WCPO's "jaggies" issues with ABC HD which we've been discussing doesn't effect the OTA RF signal - they aren't having any problems with their OTA RF signal. The problems they have only involve a Picture quality issue which is an issue(only during ABC HD) involving the information being carried "within" that signal, not the actual RF signal itself ... Not a transmission issue, and Doesn't effect reception, in other words ...

I think The winegard Square shooter is designed to provide a bit of performance on UHF, but it is not designed to work very well on VHF frequencies.

WCPO-DT(DT is callsign designation indicates it's a digital station) transmits on VHF channel 10, and remaps to 9.x to show up next to it's analog station which actually transmits on VHF channel 9. Analog+digital stations can't actually "share" the same channel in any given area - every station(digital and analog) needs a full 6MHZ channel.

Dayton digital station WDTN-DT(NBC) transmits on UHF 50, but extra data is sent to tell your receiver to REMAP it to show up as virtual channel 2.x on your receiver, so that it "appears" next to it's analog station on VHF Channel 2. Same thing with WHIO-DT(CBS Dayton), Which transmits on UHF 41, and remaps to 7.1 so it appears to be "next to" it's analog station on VHF 7.

In Cincinnati or Dayton, WCPO-DT is currently the only VHF digital station -- the rest are on UHF. The way it looks right now per FCC's currently underway channel election process, WKRC-DT 31(Remaps to 12.x - analog on channel 12)Cincinnati will also be VHF along with WCPO-DT after analog shut off. At this point, it looks like all the rest of the full service Cincy/Dayton area stations will be on UHF after analog shut off. We don't know much about where the Low power stations will end up after analog shut off yet, but if they transistion to digital on channel(which I'd guess is fairly likely for the most part), I'd guess they'll probably be UHF as well. That being said ... keep in mind, Channel 2-51 (VHF 2-13, UHF 14-51) are to be used for OTA DTV/HD after analog shut off .. And there's allways certianly a chance they'll be more VHF digitals in the area to receive from your location after analog shut off ...

So, your best bet to improve things for WCPO-DT would probably be to use either seperate VHF/UHF antennas(even rabbit ears will work better on VHF than the SS), or switch to a VHF/UHF combo antenna - such as Radio shack VU90, CM3018/etc.

Keep in mind however -- certian interference issues(such as electrical interference - from lightning strikes or man made sources - such as electric motors, various home appliances, power line noise, "funky" vehicle ignition systems with poor shielding/etc) are more of an issue for VHF than UHF ... Moreso however on low-VHF channels 2-6 .... You can see this sort of interference as "static" or "sparkles" on VHF analog stations ...

Hooking the antenna up to a NTSC analog tuner(should be one in your TV if your STB doesn't have one), and Looking at how good your reception of VHF analog stations 5,9,12 Cincinnati, 2,7 Dayton should give you an indication of how well your VHF reception is "working" ... For instance, if analog channel 9 is coming in reasonably ghost, snow+interference free, then you should get WCPO digital just fine as well ... On analog stations, unlike digital with the "bouncing meter" syndrome -- what is causing your reception difficulty shows up right on the screen .... Snow=Weak signal, Ghosts=Multipath, "static" or "sparkles"=impulse noise/electrical noise interference .... It's also very possible you are dealing with a combination of those issues, although there are other possibilities as well ...

Good luck+let us know how it goes ...

So, according to WKRC's website, the Bengals/Redskins game 8/19 will be HD. Weasel (or any other Ch.12 insiders), can you confirm this?

Well I checked Titantv.com. It shows the HD logo on the game, but when I click on it, it says "(Not in High Definition) Available in 1080i HD.
So I also have no idea.

http://www.hdsportsguide.com/

This site says it's in 1080i and the networks listed are CSN and WUSA. I guess I'm really ignorant because I've never heard of either of them.

Titantv is conflicted as always.

I'm considering switching from DirecTV (with OTA for local Cincinnati HD broadcasts) to Time Warner Cable. Has anyone done a good comparison of the following:

1) Time Warner Cable's local HD picture quality vs. OTA picture quality?
2) TWC's HD tier's HD picture quality vs. DirecTV HD tier's picture quality (e.g. DiscoveryHD, ESPNHD, etc.)?
3) TWC's HD DVR software interface vs. DirecTV's TiVo?

Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks.

WUSA is a Washington D.C. Broadcast station.

CBS has the Vikings/Jets game at 8pm tonight in HD ... Since WKRC is CBS affiliate, I'd guess there likely was a mixup with the HD listings .....

Vikings/Jets should be on WHIO-DT Dayton in HD, with The Bengals game on WKRC+WRGT(bengals preseason network stations). Who knows, but I'd guess likely in SD I'd think for reasons mentioned earlier(see tvnick's posts above for instance) ...

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, Jeff. I guess we'll find out around 8PM.

Eternally optimistic for Bengals in HD....

I'm considering switching from DirecTV (with OTA for local Cincinnati HD broadcasts) to Time Warner Cable. Has anyone done a good comparison of the following:

1) Time Warner Cable's local HD picture quality vs. OTA picture quality?
2) TWC's HD tier's HD picture quality vs. DirecTV HD tier's picture quality (e.g. DiscoveryHD, ESPNHD, etc.)?
3) TWC's HD DVR software interface vs. DirecTV's TiVo?

Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks.
I can speak to TW's DVR. I am a longtime TiVo user (Sony Standalone) but wanted an HD DVR. I am getting ready to give my old TiVo to a friend now.

IMO, the TiVo interface is better. However, the tradeoff of having two tuners and Hi-Def drumps losing the TiVo interface. I actually want through a withdrawl symptons on the TiVo beeps... :)

Things I Like:
1. Two Tuners (HD TiVo may have?)
2. Hi Def
3. Recording flexibility. I like to think of this as the "Daily Show" fix. I can tell it to record the Daily Show but only if it is showing up at 11:00 pm M-F. I could do a manual recoding in TiVo, but this is more flexible.

Things I Miss:
1. Schedule info.
a. The TW DVR has less than a week of data.
b. I liked being able to see additional information like original air date.
2. Recording repeats. You only get to choose "original" or "original and repeats". Unfortunately is is not smart enought to realize that it has already recorded an episode, even if it is still on the play list and has the same description. This can be worked around with the 3rd benefit, but doesn't work with all programs. For example, i may want it to record all "Good Eats", but they can come on at different times. It doesn't realize that it has already recorded "Chile's Angles" so it keeps recording that episode.

That's just off the top of my head.

Funny though, i am kicking around going to DirecTV (NFL Season Ticket) but am balking at the intial cost (Dish, receiver, HD TiVO, installation).

Good Luck!

I can speak to TW's DVR. I am a longtime TiVo user (Sony Standalone) but wanted an HD DVR. I am getting ready to give my old TiVo to a friend now.

While i'm all about spreading the TiVo love, I would recommend keeping your TiVo. I actually prefer the TiVo for SD recordings. Plus this gives you a "third tuner" for a day that you are triple booked (Thursdays: Alias, Survivor (SD), Joey & Will and Grace).

In addition, if you do get a new HD TiVo (if there is ever one or you get DirecTV), you may be able to transfer your Lifetime subscription (if you have one). I have the original "14 hour" model TiVo and bought the lifetime subscription and I found a transfer function on the TiVo website that can be used only once. I'm guessing they might have done this for Series 1 users that complained about the Series 2 deal.

3) TWC's HD DVR software interface vs. DirecTV's TiVo?

I really dislike the remote response, TV Guide, and the inability to keep a show forever. My SA 8300 also crashes alot and my TiVo never crashes (can't speak of the HD-TiVo). The lack of wishlist functionality is frustrating too. Losing the "Show was recorded in the last 28 days" function sucks too. You also can't sort your "Now Playing List" on the SA 8300 by name.

The only software bonus that I can speak for is the "Daily Show" fix.

I can speak to TW's DVR. I am a longtime TiVo user (Sony Standalone) but wanted an HD DVR. I am getting ready to give my old TiVo to a friend now.

IMO, the TiVo interface is better. However, the tradeoff of having two tuners and Hi-Def drumps losing the TiVo interface. I actually want through a withdrawl symptons on the TiVo beeps... :)

Things I Like:
1. Two Tuners (HD TiVo may have?)
2. Hi Def
3. Recording flexibility. I like to think of this as the "Daily Show" fix. I can tell it to record the Daily Show but only if it is showing up at 11:00 pm M-F. I could do a manual recoding in TiVo, but this is more flexible.

Things I Miss:
1. Schedule info.
a. The TW DVR has less than a week of data.
b. I liked being able to see additional information like original air date.
2. Recording repeats. You only get to choose "original" or "original and repeats". Unfortunately is is not smart enought to realize that it has already recorded an episode, even if it is still on the play list and has the same description. This can be worked around with the 3rd benefit, but doesn't work with all programs. For example, i may want it to record all "Good Eats", but they can come on at different times. It doesn't realize that it has already recorded "Chile's Angles" so it keeps recording that episode.

That's just off the top of my head.

Funny though, i am kicking around going to DirecTV (NFL Season Ticket) but am balking at the intial cost (Dish, receiver, HD TiVO, installation).

Good Luck!

HDTiVo user here...

CONs
1. Expensive up-front cost. (Although I think it's down to $299)
2. Interface gets slow if both tuners are on HD channels (the fix is reportedly on the way).
3. For the time being, you need an over-the-air antenna (think rabbit ears or roof-mount) to get local HD stations. You still get the SD locals via satellite. HD Locals will be available from DirecTV in our area sometime in 2006.

PROs
1. Yes, it has 2 tuners.
2. Yes, it records HD.
3. Other than a manual record, you can't specify parameters such as 11PM M-F. I'm curious to know why you would want to do that, however.
4. Nearly two weeks of data. (I think it's usually 12 days)
5. TiVo sw is smart enough to know it has already recorded a given episode. It won't record "Chile's Angles" more than once in a 28-day period (unless you explicitly tell it to do so).
6. Records the actual digital stream. This means that the playback has as perfect a picture as the original broadcast. There is absolutely no degredation in video or audio quality. I have to assume this is also the case with the TW HD-DVR.

For me, I preferred the higher up-front cost over the higher monthly fees from TW.

No HD for Bengals...

What a crock!

No HD for Bengals...

What a crock!

I couldn't agree more!

While i'm all about spreading the TiVo love, I would recommend keeping your TiVo. I actually prefer the TiVo for SD recordings. Plus this gives you a "third tuner" for a day that you are triple booked (Thursdays: Alias, Survivor (SD), Joey & Will and Grace).

I really dislike the remote response, TV Guide, and the inability to keep a show forever. My SA 8300 also crashes alot and my TiVo never crashes (can't speak of the HD-TiVo). The lack of wishlist functionality is frustrating too. Losing the "Show was recorded in the last 28 days" function sucks too. You also can't sort your "Now Playing List" on the SA 8300 by name.

The only software bonus that I can speak for is the "Daily Show" fix.

On my set, the SD quality of the SA 8300 is better that my series 1 TiVo. The remote can be a little quirky at times. I did have a few crashes earlier (if you went directly from viewing a recorded show to another, it would crash everytime) I have not had those issues of late.

Not sure i follow the cannot keep a show forever. There is an option to keep it until you manually delete it. Also, the fact that you can re-order the list is very cool (for example, I *kind* of want to see the HDNet World Report, but i can move it to the bottom -- next to be deleted -- so that if it needs room it will delete that before Andy Richter...).

To be clear, I like the TiVo better, but there are a handful of features that the SA has, and until there is a Standalone HD TiVO, TiVo is no longer a good choice for me.

Luebster - on the hdtivo do you have to force a resolution? ie... 1080i or 720p, or can you set it to native - so whatever the station is outputting is what the tivo outputs.. my hughes htl-hd has that.. so 720p channels get fed to the tv at 720p and the tv does the conversion... at 199 for an hdtivo.. I may take the plunge!

thanks

jim

HDTiVo user here...

CONs
1. Expensive up-front cost. (Although I think it's down to $299)
2. Interface gets slow if both tuners are on HD channels (the fix is reportedly on the way).
3. For the time being, you need an over-the-air antenna (think rabbit ears or roof-mount) to get local HD stations. You still get the SD locals via satellite. HD Locals will be available from DirecTV in our area sometime in 2006.

PROs
1. Yes, it has 2 tuners.
2. Yes, it records HD.
3. Other than a manual record, you can't specify parameters such as 11PM M-F. I'm curious to know why you would want to do that, however.
4. Nearly two weeks of data. (I think it's usually 12 days)
5. TiVo sw is smart enough to know it has already recorded a given episode. It won't record "Chile's Angles" more than once in a 28-day period (unless you explicitly tell it to do so).
6. Records the actual digital stream. This means that the playback has as perfect a picture as the original broadcast. There is absolutely no degredation in video or audio quality. I have to assume this is also the case with the TW HD-DVR.

For me, I preferred the higher up-front cost over the higher monthly fees from TW.

Luebster - on the hdtivo do you have to force a resolution? ie... 1080i or 720p, or can you set it to native - so whatever the station is outputting is what the tivo outputs.. my hughes htl-hd has that.. so 720p channels get fed to the tv at 720p and the tv does the conversion... at 199 for an hdtivo.. I may take the plunge!


Just an FYI, DirecTV is changing the compression format to MPEG 4 which may make the HDTiVO not work with the new system (there is much doubt that the TiVo will be upgradeable). I know there is a fair amount of concern about that. You may want to check out the TiVo forums if you are interested. Here is a thread on the topic:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=255336

Jim,

From my experience, my HDTivo records in native mode and then you select the output format you would like to watch it in. I can record an HD program, and go watch it in 720P in the living room, and then switch it to 480P and watch the same thing in the bedroom.

DirecTV is definitely switching over to MPEG4. You will be required to switch to a different dish and receiver when local HD channels are brought to this area through direcTV. There have been rumors that DirecTV will give those us us credit for the existing HDTivos towards the new DirecTV HD recorder (not Tivo). This big controversy is that DirecTV knows this and are now loving the prices of the HDTivo to $500 so that those of us who supported HD at a rate of $1000 will then only get credit for $500. By the time it gets to us, the HD Tivo will probably only be $300 and DirecTV will want us to pay $700 for the new HD recorder!!!

By the time DirecTV gives us local HD, I'm sure WCPO will have all of the jaggies fixed!!! HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Apparently that is going to happen when hell freezes over

lol.. another great wcpo hd broadcast tonight!!

I know all about mpeg4.. bottom line.. even after the switch, the hd tivo will be able to record ota hd :) - for $199 thats a good deal! Directv has also said that they will swap out or upgrade to the mpeg 4 dvr for very low cost owners of an hd tivo :)

The current cost of their HD DVR is $199 after a $100 rebate. I was offered it last week when I told them I was now cancelling my subscription to their programming. They told me they would upgrade to MPEG-4 for free when it got to our area. But they couldn't promise me better HD PQ when MPEG-4 arrives here, just more channels (mostly locals). But I'm already getting locals OTA for free! So for now OTA-only is serving me well. If I start missing the national HD channels this fall, I'll go with Time Warner and get more HD channels with less compression for 1/2 the cost ($10 lifeline + HD + HD Tier).

I'll go with Time Warner and get more HD channels with less compression for 1/2 the cost ($10 lifeline + HD + HD Tier).

Duster - have you priced out what the lifeline and HD services run per month with TW? I keep entertaining the thought of scaling down on my cable services, as I only watch a few channels, but haven't started anything on this yet.

Does TW even offer this package, as I would think they'd try to get you on their digital tier of channels first, and then let you add the HD level of services. I know there's been much discussion on this in the past, just curious if anyone is actually subscribing to only the services noted above. When you can - thanks

Hal

Yes, I called just last week. You have to specifically ask for the lifeline service ($10). They certainly don't go out of their way to promote it. Then you add the HD package and HD Tier and I believe you're looking at somewhere around $25 plus tax! They quoted 5 - 7 days installation at no charge and they make weekend appointments.

Yes, I called just last week. You have to specifically ask for the lifeline service ($10). Then you add the HD package and HD Tier and I believe you're looking at somewhere around $25 plus tax!

Ah, but can you get the DVR with that? :confused:

That was extra. I believe something like $17 per month was the amount she quoted me.

This is all great to know. They are supposed to be starting up TW's cable service here at Village East around the 25th of the month. I have been trying to figure out what I am going to do once my contract is up with E*.

All I need is for SBC to start offering IPTV so I can have even more choices and get more confused.

Yes, I called just last week. You have to specifically ask for the lifeline service ($10). They certainly don't go out of their way to promote it. Then you add the HD package and HD Tier and I believe you're looking at somewhere around $25 plus tax! They quoted 5 - 7 days installation at no charge and they make weekend appointments.

That would just about set me up I believe. I'll have to give them a call and get a quote. Good info - appreciate the followup -

Super! My contract with D* just ended so I cancelled my service. I'm currently using the HD receiver that they sold me for $200 to get my OTA local channels from Cinci and Dayton. Probably next month I'll call TW for an installation appointment.

Let me muddy the waters a little further. Is anyone using a cablecard from TW? Just wondering how well they work or if they are even available from them and weather PQ is better or worse.

I believe there have been recent postings on the Dayton thread regarding these. Supposedly few technicians have any experience installing them. You might search the thread and ask some questions there.

Does anyone know is ABC started their HD upgrade? Any chance in hell that this might solve some of WCPOs issues?

The lack of wishlist functionality is frustrating too.
The 8300HD does have wishlist functionality to a degree. You can't do wishlists by category, but you can by keyword. In the guide, choose keyword search and continue typing in a keyword, even if nothing shows up. It will then prompt you to press record to set up a wishlist. It has worked fairly well for me.

Overall I've been very impressed with the 8300 in comparison to my standalone TiVos. I've noticed that I'm switching over to the TiVos less and less as time goes on. I've gotten used to the quirks and differences and I've started to like the thing a little better than the TiVos.

Just sent this to the WLWT engineering email address on their website :

Hello,

Thought I'd drop you a note to report that PSIP channel remapping from WLWT-
DT is apparently missing today, 8/24/05 on my Zenith HDV420 Receiver.

From what I can tell this receiver updates the PSIP VCT info every time you
tune to any given station.

It is falling back to MPEG2 PAT/PMT info and is decoding WLWT-DT just fine
currently. It displays 35-1 and 35-2(weatherplus). Usually remaps to 5.1/5.2
just fine.

First noticed this issue was occuring around noon this afternoon(fine last
night), still 35.x at 4:45pm.

On a couple of other notes concerning your digital station :

#1). I've also noticed EIA-708 captions have not been functioning lately
from WLWT-DT on the Zenith Receiver. I can't give you a specific date when
it quit working as I don't usually use captions.

#2). I've noticed a increase in MPEG2 compression artifacts during bandwidth
demanding programming(such as HD Nascar) since you began running
multicasting "weatherplus" earlier this summer. Please improve this
situation+restore NBC HD quality.

Thanks+Hope this helps,

But I'm already getting locals OTA for free!

You can't really beat OTA, IMO -- For HD or otherwise .... whether or not you choose to also use other options such as sat/cable...

It's still analog only unfortunetly, and probably takes a decent outdoor antenna setup for a snow free pic as it's a low power station --- But, you can even watch Jaggie free CFL football OTA from CBC this summer on Saturday Nights from WOTH-LP 25 Cincinnati -- "The Other Channel" ....

[QUOTE=Nitewatchman]Just sent this to the WLWT engineering email address on their website :

It is falling back to MPEG2 PAT/PMT info and is decoding WLWT-DT just fine
currently. It displays 35-1 and 35-2(weatherplus). Usually remaps to 5.1/5.2
just fine.

First noticed this issue was occuring around noon this afternoon(fine last
night), still 35.x at 4:45pm.

]QUOTE]



PSIP is missing on both of my Zenith and SIRT 150. I've also noticed that audio is missing for a few seconds when going out of local into network programming.

I have an email from engineering from last year that stated that they were going to pass DD 5.1 audio from NBC this fall. Maybe they are doing some upgrades.

If their PSIP generator is down the channels will not remap and 708 captions will not be decoded as the flags for the 708 captions are carried in the EIT tables and PMTs are also generated in the PSIP.

If their PSIP generator is down the channels will not remap and 708 captions will not be decoded as the flags for the 708 captions are carried in the EIT tables and PMTs are also generated in the PSIP.

708 captions were missing from them before PSIP VCT(or EIT/ETT - programming guide/etc) info was missing. I first noticed 708 missing from them about a couple of weeks or so ago, I don't know how long it hasn't been working from WLWT-DT as its been months since I tried to turn on the captions. They were the first station In this area I saw 708 captions working properly with the ZenithHDV420, over 2 years ago.

Perhaps I didn't explain that clearly enough.

I'm still only getting 708 captions on the Zenith from a few Cincinnati/Dayton stations. Its Currently working properly from WDTN-DT, WHIO-DT, WCPO-DT, WKRC-DT and WCVN-DT, not the other 10. It does let me turn the captions On/off on several other stations(such as WCET-DT/WPTO-DT/WPTD-DT/WRGT-DT/WKEF-DT/WSTR-DT), but there is never any caption data that shows up - except on WRGT-DT during Fox programming via the splicer. On the other stations, it says "This feature is not available" when I push the "caption" button on the remote.

With the receivers I have that support it(HDV420 doesn't) It is hard to say how much is happening on the receiver end, but proper implementation of programming info via EIT's has seemed iffy from many stations as well.

OTA DTV, and proper decoding of the program streams CAN work just fine(depending upon the receiver) without ANY PSIP whatsoever by using the MPEG2 program info from PMT or PAT I believe. Doesn't seem like 708 captions would work without PSIP however. Not all receivers are like this but IMO they *should* all be able to "fallback" to using MPEG info when PSIP info from a station is missing or corrupt. For that matter, I think they should also allow the user to turn on/off PSIP as desired(or necessary).

Turning off the "Off air guides" function on a RCA DTC-100 receiver turns off its use of PSIP alltogether. Disableing its "off air guide" function does not just effect the guide info from EIT/ETT. It "turns" off everything, including VCT info. Unlike other D* HD sat/OTA receivers, DTC-100 does not use D* EPG info for OTA, the ATSC/NTSC receiver and Sat receiver are completely "seperate". It's the only STB I know of that lets you do this. Being an older receiver, it does not support 708 captions at all.

My week-old HD Tivo, which previously worked fine, lost the ability to tune WLWT-DT yesterday. I called the station and they said that they're transmitting. Is anyone else having trouble? Any ideas?

Jholcomb,

As mentioned above WLWT-DT is not currently sending PSIP, or is not sending "proper" PSIP info. Among other things, PSIP info tells your receiver(and/or integrates with D* EPG) to remap WLWT-DT 35(they actually transmit on UHF channel 35) to 5.x.

Until they get it fixed, you might be able to tune directly to 35.1(or 35.2 for WeatherPlus) to see them. Or, if you can't do that a channel scan might work(If so they'd currently show up on 35.1+35.2). You might also need to do a channel scan again when they do get it fixed.

Unfortunetly, doesn't look like they read my email yet ...

jim tressler:

Sorry, but I've been swamped lately and haven't been able to check this thread. The HDTiVo does not have native passthrough, so you have to pick a format to output to your set. You can switch on the fly, however, so if you know what format a given broadcast is in, you could switch to that. A poor workaround, I know, but a workaround nonetheless.

The rumor is that when (if?) D* swaps out the HDTiVos for their MPEG4 compatible HD-DVR (probably no longer TiVo software), it will have native-passthrough.

Of course, as with anything else, I'll believe it when I see it.

If you can get your hands on an HR10-250 for $199, I'd do it. Cincinnati probably won't see MPEG4 till late 2006, early 2007, so you should get your money's worth, even if the box can only record OTA HD.

Hope this helps.

Peace,

So if I bought the DVR for $200, and paid $50 a month for DirecTV Total Choice + HD channels for 18 months, that's $1,100. Just so I can trade it in for an MPEG-4 version at no extra cost in late 2006/early 2007. For a person that doesn't watch much SD DBS programming and gets locals for free OTA, that's hard to swallow.

I think we've talked about this before either here or in Dayton thread, and there is a long thread on E*/Voom HD in programming area ... but anyway - According to their website, E*(Dish Network) DOES just let you purchase their HD programming without subbing to one of their "basic" entertainment packages. Their website says there may be a $5 monthly "programming access fee" if you don't sub to one of the "main" packages, however.

I'm just guessing, but If you do HD only from them I'm thinking They might not give you any good deals on their HD DVR(Has OTA HD tuner in it too of course), or any other hardware. And, they're going to MPEG4 as well soon but haven't released their "plans" concerning exactly how they will be doing it as of yet. I don't think you can order it online from them that way, but you should be able to do it if you call them.

Their Main HD package is $9.99 per month(TNTHD, ESPNHD, Hdnet, HDnet Movies, DiscoveryHD) , $5 more to add all the "Voom" HD channels ... Which is quite a bit of HD, although personally still seems a little steep to me compared to cost of hardware for OTA HD after you've used it a couple of years ... And especially so if your getting all 14 of the Dayton/Cincy stations that do HD, and if most of the programming you watch comes from the broadcast nets or local stations ....

Anyway -- Follows is what it says about this in a HD section of their FAQ which is here:

http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/faq/search/programming/index.shtml

quote:

You can purchase HDTV channels only; however, you may be subject to a $5.00 Service Access Fee each month if you do not have a basic package such as America 's Top 60.

An HD receiver and HD monitor are required to receive and view HD channels. The DISH Network HD Pak can be purchased alone, while the VOOM Originals HD Pak must be purchased in addition to the DISH Network HD Pak. Availability of VOOM channels depends on geographical location. Certain HD channels may require the purchase of a second dish antenna.

:end quote

One other note on Dish's HD DVR, I believe if you cancel services with Dish, the receiver will only work if it can see one of Dish's satellites. I have the 811 HD receiver and during a bad thunderstorm once I lost contact with the satellites while watching HD OTA and it also cut out. I got some message about not being able to see the satellite. So, it will work but you need the receiver to be connected to the dish and have line of sight to one of Dish's satellites. You would also still receive some channels for free like the Dish promotional channel and I think some of the shopping channels, and maybe even NASA's channel.

Scott

So if I bought the DVR for $200, and paid $50 a month for DirecTV Total Choice + HD channels for 18 months, that's $1,100. Just so I can trade it in for an MPEG-4 version at no extra cost in late 2006/early 2007. For a person that doesn't watch much SD DBS programming and gets locals for free OTA, that's hard to swallow.
By no means am I trying to pick a fight, but do you pay for cable now? If so, what's the charge for digital tier + HD? Probably more than $50. $200 over 18 months is $11.11 per, so if cable is anything more than $61, you're paying too much. Plus you're missing out on what most would say is superior software.

Also, can you record your OTA HD channels? On two tuners?

There's more to it than just price.

By no means am I trying to pick a fight, but do you pay for cable now? If so, what's the charge for digital tier + HD? Probably more than $50. $200 over 18 months is $11.11 per, so if cable is anything more than $61, you're paying too much. Plus you're missing out on what most would say is superior software.

Also, can you record your OTA HD channels? On two tuners?

There's more to it than just price.

No, I do not pay for cable now. For now I'm still exploring my options. I just recently cancelled my D* subscription and am watching my locals OTA. TW quoted me $25 for Lifeline + HD + digital tier. I've already posted that! I don't do the DVR thing. Everyone has different situations. All I'm saying is that, for me, it looks like other providers can provide me more of what I would watch for less money.

No, I do not pay for cable now. For now I'm still exploring my options. I just recently cancelled my D* subscription and am watching my locals OTA. TW quoted me $25 for Lifeline + HD + digital tier. I've already posted that! I don't do the DVR thing. Everyone has different situations. All I'm saying is that, for me, it looks like other providers can provide me more of what I would watch for less money.
What's great about this board is we can all share our experiences and learn about new services/hardware/etc from each other. So thank you for informing the group that you can get the service you want for as little as $25. That's great.

However, for Jim and I (the people engaged in the original conversation regarding the HDTiVo), it would appear that D* is currently the best choice (IMHO) for the services that we want (all basic SD channels, local HD channels, national HD channels, and the ability to record them all with a DVR).

Yes, and HD Tivo is not the only subject that we are discussing in this thread. This thread is used to discuss many different topics that relate to local HDTV info and reception in the Cincinnati area.

Yes, and HD Tivo is not the only subject that we are discussing in this thread. This thread is used to discuss many different topics that relate to local HDTV info and reception in the Cincinnati area.
I understand that, but you replied to my response to Jim. Jim and I were discussing the merits of the HDTiVo. Your comment did not do anything to further that conversation.

Yes, I did miss the fact that you were replying to an earlier post by Jim Tressler. The way I first read your post, I thought you were recommending this to everyone. Oops!

BTW, I just got off the phone with E* and the only way you can get HD only from them is by purchasing their receiver for $449 and if you want the Voom channels that's an extra $99 for the second dish. The CSR said that all HD channels (E* and Voom) would cost $20 per month.

:cool: Not a problem...it's so easy on the forums to misconstrue someone's post.

Now if only WCPO can fix their jaggies.... :rolleyes:

thanks luebster.. to bad they can make the hughes hd-250 as good as the hughes htl-hd.. but.. for $199 thats a good deal.. I probably will never leave directv as they are the only game in town to watch the browns :) I may call retention and see what I can squeeze out of them :)

jim tressler:

Sorry, but I've been swamped lately and haven't been able to check this thread. The HDTiVo does not have native passthrough, so you have to pick a format to output to your set. You can switch on the fly, however, so if you know what format a given broadcast is in, you could switch to that. A poor workaround, I know, but a workaround nonetheless.

The rumor is that when (if?) D* swaps out the HDTiVos for their MPEG4 compatible HD-DVR (probably no longer TiVo software), it will have native-passthrough.

Of course, as with anything else, I'll believe it when I see it.

If you can get your hands on an HR10-250 for $199, I'd do it. Cincinnati probably won't see MPEG4 till late 2006, early 2007, so you should get your money's worth, even if the box can only record OTA HD.

Hope this helps.

Peace,

well.. I use mediaportal (with the fusion5 gold) and during an autoscan it can not find wlwt - shows there is signal, but wont read the info so I can tune it.. now if I use the dvico software it finds it... interesting

jim

edit.. the dvico software also picks up their epg data.. weird
edit #2 - 1:50pm - media portal now sees it..

Jholcomb,

As mentioned above WLWT-DT is not currently sending PSIP, or is not sending "proper" PSIP info. Among other things, PSIP info tells your receiver(and/or integrates with D* EPG) to remap WLWT-DT 35(they actually transmit on UHF channel 35) to 5.x.

Until they get it fixed, you might be able to tune directly to 35.1(or 35.2 for WeatherPlus) to see them. Or, if you can't do that a channel scan might work(If so they'd currently show up on 35.1+35.2). You might also need to do a channel scan again when they do get it fixed.

Unfortunetly, doesn't look like they read my email yet ...

PSIP remapping to 5.x is working again from WLWT-DT on Zenith receiver as of Noon today(still working at 2pm).

However, I notice on 5.1 they are having occasional "glitches" with their audio or video sometimes it's audio, sometimes it's video this was happening during Local news as well as NBC SD programming presently ... No glicthes are occuring on 5.2/weather plus ...

Super! My contract with D* just ended so I cancelled my service. I'm currently using the HD receiver that they sold me for $200 to get my OTA local channels from Cinci and Dayton. Probably next month I'll call TW for an installation appointment.

Just spoke to a TW sales rep, who told me no bueno on the lifeline+hd+hd tier option.

Said that is not an option, and if I wanted only their HD channels, that I would have to subscribe to their basic digital tier (DigiiPic 1000) package, plus their HD tier. Told her I had a buddy who had been quoted the lifeline+ option, and she said that is not a valid option.

Not sure if she was just yanking my chain, but she was quite forthright and self-assured in relaying this bit of information to me...Interesting, given that you had been told this was a valid package. Not sure if this is one of those sits where you have to keep calling until you get someone who'll sell you that package.

At 2:45pm, PSIP remapping to 5.x is missing again from WLWT-DT, it's back to 35.x on the Zenith receiver ... BUT the audio/video glitches mentioned in my last post are no longer occuring on 5.1 ...

So, looks like they are having problems ....

Disclaimer : Specifications subject to change without notice :-)

Just spoke to a TW sales rep, who told me no bueno on the lifeline+hd+hd tier option.

Said that is not an option, and if I wanted only their HD channels, that I would have to subscribe to their basic digital tier (DigiiPic 1000) package, plus their HD tier. Told her I had a buddy who had been quoted the lifeline+ option, and she said that is not a valid option.

Not sure if she was just yanking my chain, but she was quite forthright and self-assured in relaying this bit of information to me...Interesting, given that you had been told this was a valid package. Not sure if this is one of those sits where you have to keep calling until you get someone who'll sell you that package.

I was just about to call them again anyways. I'll let you know what they say.

I was just about to call them again anyways. I'll let you know what they say.

Yes, let me know what they say.. I went into the conversation from "Is this an option"...vs. saying "This is what I'd like to sign up for". So you may approach the conversation from an "in the know" tone.. Or at least act like you believe that's an option. Regardles, be curious what they say to you -

WLWT-DT remapping to 5.x again at 3:30pm EDT .... The glitches are back on 5.1 however ....

Disclaimer : Specifications still subject to change without notice :)

Update: Looks like they had the Audio/video glitches and PSIP straightened out before quitting time ....

Just spoke to a TW sales rep, who told me no bueno on the lifeline+hd+hd tier option.

Said that is not an option, and if I wanted only their HD channels, that I would have to subscribe to their basic digital tier (DigiiPic 1000) package, plus their HD tier. Told her I had a buddy who had been quoted the lifeline+ option, and she said that is not a valid option.


I wonder if the confusion is with the HD tier. I believe that they have to provide the local HD signals with lifeline (assuming you have the tuner to see it). The HD tier is "decoded" by the set-top box, is it not? Perhaps the CS who said it was possible, wasn't thinking about the HD Tier channels (ESPN-HD, HDNET...).

I don't have a tuner in my TV, and wanted the DVR, so i haven't tried it out.

Just spoke to a TW sales rep, who told me no bueno on the lifeline+hd+hd tier option.

Said that is not an option, and if I wanted only their HD channels, that I would have to subscribe to their basic digital tier (DigiiPic 1000) package, plus their HD tier. Told her I had a buddy who had been quoted the lifeline+ option, and she said that is not a valid option.

Not sure if she was just yanking my chain, but she was quite forthright and self-assured in relaying this bit of information to me...Interesting, given that you had been told this was a valid package. Not sure if this is one of those sits where you have to keep calling until you get someone who'll sell you that package.

Ok, I just got off the phone with a CSR at TW Cable. We had a very lengthy conversation.

He says I was misinformed to a certain extent. You can't get their standard HD channels with Lifeline. He also confirmed you have to subscribe to Digipac 1000 in order to get those channels and I believe the base HD channels are TNT, PBS and Discovery. He said that you CAN order the HD Tier when you subscribe to Lifeline. The HD Tier includes ESPN, INHD1, INHD2, HDNET and HDNET Movies.

So for $25 you get Lifeline (mostly locals), an HD STB, and the HD Tier.

If you want their base HD channels, he offered me a 1 year introductory cost of $47/month which includes Digipac 1000, all the base HD channels, and the HD Tier of channels. He also offered to continue the discount I'm receiving on Roadrunner for an additional year which would save me $15 a month. After a year, the cost goes up to $67 for the cable and $45 for Roadrunner.

He said that I could choose from a few different STB's and recommended that I visit a TW store to compare PQ and STB features. He mentioned a Pace STB and a Scientific - Atlantic. I would be interested in hearing about any recommendations.

I'm pretty sure any PBS HD comes from the local stations the cableco is carrying. In this case from WCET-DT and/or WCVN-DT, and WPTO-DT(on sat/sun nights) If TW Cincy is carrying WPTO-DT.


I believe that they have to provide the local HD signals with lifeline (assuming you have the tuner to see it).


That is correct. They don't have to provide the equipment to receive it, but they do have to provide the local digital broadcast stations(which includes HD services) they are carrying on their lowest cost tier of service(lifeline in this case I believe) - even "analog" cable. This usually means those signals are sent Unencrypted "In the clear" QAM. The user who has subscribed to the lifeline tier can watch those signals IF they have their own QAM capable tuner.

For more info on this, including one possibile "loophole" involved, (I don't think it applies to any cableco in this area however) link to current FCC rules on this see here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5869739&&#post5869739

They can however do pretty much what they want I think when it comes to cableco STBs, DVR's, or HD tiers/digital cable "pricing" with HD "cablenets" such as TNTHD/ Etc.

He says I was misinformed to a certain extent. You can't get their standard HD channels with Lifeline. He also confirmed you have to subscribe to Digipac 1000 in order to get those channels and I believe the base HD channels are TNT, PBS and Discovery. He said that you CAN order the HD Tier when you subscribe to Lifeline. The HD Tier includes ESPN, INHD1, INHD2, HDNET and HDNET Movies.

So for $25 you get Lifeline (mostly locals), an HD STB, and the HD Tier.

Ah, very interesting. Thanks for the followup. Man, if only they included the TNT channel as part of their HD Tier level of service. Can't get it all I guess.


If you want their base HD channels, he offered me a 1 year introductory cost of $47/month which includes Digipac 1000, all the base HD channels, and the HD Tier of channels. He also offered to continue the discount I'm receiving on Roadrunner for an additional year which would save me $15 a month. After a year, the cost goes up to $67 for the cable and $45 for Roadrunner.

I'm currently on a combo deal that includes Roadrunner as well. I do a lot of work from home, and can't do without a hi-speed service, and RR is nice. One of the things I'm looking at, is I just received a flyer from Cincinnati Bell offering their DSL service for $20/mo, until June of '06..normally around $30/mo. I"m of the opinion that cable provides a better quality of service over DSL, but at $44.95/mo, I'm getting tired of paying this much. Need some add'l competition introduced into this area, as cable has this mkt cornered currently, and they're still getting what they can, while they can.

He said that I could choose from a few different STB's and recommended that I visit a TW store to compare PQ and STB features. He mentioned a Pace STB and a Scientific - Atlantic. I would be interested in hearing about any recommendations.

I had a Pace box before I got their SA HD-DVR box. I thought the Pace gave a quality picture, but it was a bit quirky. Would lock up more than the Pioneer box, or SA settop box I had. I'd have no problem going back to a Pace box personally as I thought the pic was very good quality.

Appreciate your followup on this subject -

Hal

Hey all,
I'm glad I found this forum, it really helped with researching my buying decisions.

I live in the Monfort Heights/White Oak area and recently purchased a Toshiba 30" HD tube TV. I just switched from TWC to Dish Network (Top 60), but didn't want to pay for HD service, so I got a Samsung SIR-T451 off Ebay and a Terk HDTVi antenna from BB. Happy to report that with everything hooked up (cables everywhere) and the antenna sitting on the kitchen table near a window, I get all the locals really well. If I move the antenna into the family room though, I start to get some signal loss. As part of my cable cleanup, I'm going to try the Terk antenna in the attic over the garage, but I think I'll be needing something bigger.

My question: Is there much benefit in getting a large enough antenna to pick up the Dayton/etc stations? Will those affiliates air blacked-out Bengals games or do they have other programming worth getting that is different than ours?

My two cents, the Tonight Show is the best thing I've seen in HD so far. Seems like Leno is sitting in my family room!
Thanks,
Mike

Cincy Mike

Welcome to AVS. For me, there was considerable benefit to having access to the Dayton stations. At the time, stations were constantly forgetting to "flip the switch" and having a second source for an HD program was a godsend. From what I can tell, it still happens with live sporting events.

There are also occasions where one of the Cincy affiliates will pre-empt network programming. For example, WXIX carries a lot of Bearcat basketball games which, in the past, have caused episodes of "24" not to air until the following Sunday.

And, if you'll scroll back through the thread, you'll see that WCPO has an equipment issue that's causing a jagged-line effect that's most notable during Monday Night Football. Flipping to Dayton is what everyone who can do does.

But, no, it won't get you blacked-out Bengals games. Dayton is well within the NFL's blackout radius. And, from my house in KY, Louisville and Lexington never carried the Bengals, either. Columbus doesn't get blacked out, but they generally get the Cleveland games when Cleveland and Cincinnati play at the same time, IIRC. On non-double-header weeks, Dayton's Fox affiliate often carries the opposite game as WXIX. One will have the early game and the other will have the late game. Sometimes happens between WHIO and WKRC, too.

You WILL have access to SOME different sporting events. Dayton's ABC affiliate doesn't always carry the same college football game as Cincy. WKRC carries the ESPN Plus package. and the early game doesn't always end before CBS' SEC game at 3:30. Flip to WHIO and you won't miss the SEC kickoff. You can sometimes get different NBC Arena Football games, too. <g>.

Couple of other things to add to the Dayton+Cincy OTA benefits mentioned in Doc's fine post ....

WHIO-DT Dayton currently has better HD PQ IMO for CBS HD than is the case for WKRC-DT Cincy which is currently multicasting a SD weather radar subchannel.

WHIO-DT Dayton has DD 5.1 for CBS HD programming that has DD 5.1 audio, WKRC-DT currently doesn't. WDTN-DT Dayton has DD 5.1 for NBC HD, WLWT-DT currently doesn't.

WPTD-DT Dayton Runs PBS HD channel 6pm~6am nightly, WCET-DT Cincinnati has it 5pm to sign off(around 1am) through the week and throughout their on air hours on weekends (about 7am~1am). WCVN-DT Covington, KY has PBS HD channel 8pm~11pm nightly, WPTO-DT Oxford(broadcasts off Fox Cincy tower) runs selected PBS HD programming on a time shifted schedule only on sat+Sun nights 6pm~12am.

Sometimes -- a Cincy or Dayton station may break for severe weather info(or drop to SD to insert weather bugs), or other local "breaking news" stories, while the station of the same net affiliate in the other market won't.

Right now(specs subject to change w/o notice) -- because of the PQ issue on WCPO-DT during ABC HD, and because of the increased compression artifacts during bandwidth demanding programming on WKRC-DT, as well as DD 5.1 from NBC and CBS, IMO Dayton is currently "better" overall than Cincinnati is when it comes to OTA HD quality ....

OTOH however, WCET-DT and WCVN-DT do have better PBS HD quality(and DD 5.1 when available) than WPTD-DT or WPTD-DT ... No real difference to speak of HD PQ wise that I can tell currently for Fox, NBC, or WB between Dayton/Cincinnati stations ... If only either WDTN would drop their SD sub, or WLWT would drop Weatherplus, one or the other would probably be better for NBC HD during bandwidth demainding programming ....

Given that the Coverage areas for most of the Dayton digitals reach South of Ohio River, for the reasons mentioned(and probably others we're not thinking of) I'm surprised more Cincinnati folks(even those using cable) don't seem to take advantage of Dayton antenna ... such as say, a 4 or 8 bay bowtie or UHF yagi on the roof(indoor may work too for some folks, but YMMV) aimed at Dayton ... All the Dayton digitals are on UHF(therefore requiring only a relatively small antenna), and broadcast from the same antenna farm .....

Also, Feel free to join us on the Dayton thread as well, here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=136336&page=91&pp=30

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A reminder to all .... 2 Days to go to first HD Letterman show ... I hope WKRC-DT/WHIO-DT got the memo <g> ....

I had a Pace box before I got their SA HD-DVR box. I thought the Pace gave a quality picture, but it was a bit quirky. Would lock up more than the Pioneer box, or SA settop box I had. I'd have no problem going back to a Pace box personally as I thought the pic was very good quality.

Appreciate your followup on this subject -

Hal

I went over to TWC in Middletown this morning to look at what they had to offer for HD PQ. What a disappointment! They had a Pace STB with no DVI output. The four CSR's they had working in there couldn't tell me the difference between component cables or composite cables if their lives depended on it. The picture was jittery, jagged lines etc. Surely TW PQ is better than this! Does anybody know where I can see what TWC has to offer? I'd like to navigate through the STB menus and see what kind of PQ I could expect on an HD-compatible TV.

Sat night Cincy HD report :

ABC HD:

Well, Notice ABC HD is back up tonight for "The Mexican". "Jaggies"/Staircase pattern - I.e. - 1280x360 "effective" resolution issue or whatever you want to call it is still there on WCPO-DT ...

I still think, as Ron had talked about, that it's likely because something in the signal chain for ABC HD is downsampling to 1280x360, before the encoder spits that out as 1280x720p .. I had sent them the info on what Ron found in detail --- including links to his posts here, as well as on OpenDTV forum concerning the issue. This went to WCPO-DT's Director of Engineering several times between about March and May of this year. Unfortunetly, From what I can gather from their response(s), although I did get enough back to confirm they at least read some of it, nevertheless --- I'm afraid I did not meet with much(if any) real success concerning effectively communicating what was discovered ... Perhaps others would have more success than I .....

Of course, I did also mention the encoder(the same one) was sending 720p prior to their summer 04 studio move(back to about spring 03 - prior to that they were upconverting to 1080i) and we weren't getting the "jaggies" issue prior to the studio move(including 03-04 MNF HD season), nor is it a problem during SD upconverts (programming not coming from the ABC HD feed) currently ...

Anyway, "The Mexican" is OAR(2.35:1) and looks good from WKEF-DT Dayton ...

NBC HD:

Notice HD was missing earlier from WLWT-DT for "Crossing Jordan" which is a bit rare - They do have it in HD now, though. It's been HD from WDTN-DT Dayton since 8 ...

CBS HD:

Doing A/B comparisons between WKRC-DT+WHIO-DT during the Colts HD game(First NFL HD game they've BOTH had since WKRC added the radar on 12.2 and WHIO dropped the SD sub around HD masters time, and since WKRC had a SD bengals game last week when WHIO-DT had the Jets game HD) ... And -- It doesn't look as bad as it was back in the webhopper days or WHIO multicasting a SD sub days, although compression artifacts still noticable during the spinning NFL logo+scene transistions on WKRC-DT that just aren't there from WHIO-DT ...

I'm currently on a combo deal that includes Roadrunner as well. I do a lot of work from home, and can't do without a hi-speed service, and RR is nice. One of the things I'm looking at, is I just received a flyer from Cincinnati Bell offering their DSL service for $20/mo, until June of '06..normally around $30/mo. I"m of the opinion that cable provides a better quality of service over DSL, but at $44.95/mo, I'm getting tired of paying this much. Need some add'l competition introduced into this area, as cable has this mkt cornered currently, and they're still getting what they can, while they can.

From SBC's Website.

SBC Yahoo!® DSL Dynamic IP Packages What is a Dynamic IP?
Package Downstream
Speed Upstream
Speed IP Address Monthly Price Ordering
Express 384Kbps-
1.5Mbps 128Kbps-
384Kbps 1 Dynamic $14.95 Order Now
Pro 1.5Mbps-
3.0Mbps 384Kbps-
512Kbps 1 Dynamic $24.99 Order Now

I've been using SBC for the last 4-5 years and have only one complaint. They seem to have some trouble determining weather or not you can actually use DSL service from them. That being said, I have found the service very reliable and rather speedy. I have also been able to just make a call and get their latest pricing and/or speed upgrades, without any hastle.

Let me also say I have no desire to get into a whole Cable vs. DSL discussion but rather this is just my observation on the service offered by SBC. I am currently using the Pro package and can play Xbox online and the wife can be surfing the internet without any real slowdown.

Keep me informed Dusterscott. I am considering the switch myself. There is something I am curious about on their pricing as well and maybe someone here already knows. When I look on the TW site and check out channel lineups for a STB, I see this legend:
Channel Legend
Digital Basic
Digital Basic High-Def
Digital Movie Tier
HDTV Tier
International
Lifeline
Premium Channels
Sports Tier
Standard
Variety Tier
Video On Demand/PPV
I am curious as to which of these are included in the Digipic 1000 or 2000 or 4000?
I assume that they only include the lifeline, standard and digital basic channels. So that would equal out to something like DPic1000=$50+HDDVR$8+converter for the bedroom$5+HD Tier$8+variety tier(I'm not giving up Speed channel and the wife isn't giving up CMT)I don't know the price of the variety tier but I'll guess another $5=$73 a month? Is that about right? The only thing promising here is the 30 day guarntee they have.

If this is the case I may stay with E* until after the MPG4 info is updated and then compare them all against each other again.

Can someone point me at the info for D*'s MPG4 info I'd like to start checking out what's going on with that.

I went over to TWC in Middletown this morning to look at what they had to offer for HD PQ. What a disappointment! They had a Pace STB with no DVI output. The four CSR's they had working in there couldn't tell me the difference between component cables or composite cables if their lives depended on it. The picture was jittery, jagged lines etc. Surely TW PQ is better than this! Does anybody know where I can see what TWC has to offer? I'd like to navigate through the STB menus and see what kind of PQ I could expect on an HD-compatible TV.

I'm no expert but I have the SA8300 HD DVR from TWC and I love it. Dual HD tuners.

Looks like No HD for Browns vs. Bengals for season opener if the current CBS HD NFL schedule holds ....

Vikings at Bengals is of course scheduled HD from Fox on Week 2 .... We'll need a sell out, or a good signal from a out of market station beyond Dayton ... I've seen Fox affiliates in Columbus, Lousiville+Lexington carry Bengals home games in the past, but not allways ... .... IF it is a sellout, hopefully WXIX won't take the DT off air for tower work again like last year ... ;)

Cincy at chicago is currently scheduled for CBS HD for week 3 ...

Houston at Cincy is not currently scheduled for HD from CBS for week 4 ....

See here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=574476

And here:

http://www.hdsportsguide.com/nfl.php

Looking to move my CM 4228 from the attic to the roof. Yes, the heck with the neighbors, it's going to the roof. Looking for a good installer. A salesman from Ovation said they use John Wendel of Satellite Antenna System. A google search reveals three; Satellite Antenna Systems, DSS, and TNT Picture Co. The DSS web site state they only carry a Winegard which is $99 + $249 installation.

Just replaced my Sony HD-200 & Series 2 TIVO with the Hughes HR10-250, and now my HD reception is worse. I read a post today under the Antenna thread where someone else replaced the exact same equipment, and cannot receive channels he received prior to equip replacement. This is pretty disappointing.

I had terrible pixelation on yesterday's CBS HD broadcast of tennis, to the point where I couldn't watch it any longer.

Is the CM 4228 still the best antenna to use? I am guessing I need a rotor too? Live in 45245 zip code, and according to antennaweb.org I am 12.4 to 18.1 miles away from the towers of DT, with compass orientation between 278 - 318, with the majority at 303.

Recommendations greatly appreciated.

Kathy,

I thought you had a CM3018 in your attic, did you switch to a CM4228?

There is a picture of a CM4228 here :

http://www.channelmaster.com/images/4228.jpg

Here is a pciture of a CM3018 :

http://www.channelmaster.com/images/3018.jpg

CM4228/some general antenna comments:

CM4228 is a UHF antenna. WCPO-DT(ABC) Cincinnati transmits on VHF channel 10. The rest of the Cincinnati area digital stations are currently on UHF. WKRC-DT(CBS HD Cincinnati) currently transmits on UHF channel 31 but has filed with FCC to move to VHF channel 12 after analog shut off.

Antennaweb shows you the actual channel the stations currently transmit on in the last column on right, labeled "Frequency Assignment." This is the channel that is "important" as far as your antenna goes, concerning whether you need UHF or both VHF/UHF antenna.

Channels(or "frequency assignment") 2-13 are VHF, Channel 14-69 are UHF. For example, WLWT-DT(NBC HD) Cincinnati actually transmits on UHF channel 35. 5.1/5.2 are only virtual remapped channels, so they appear to be "next to" their analog on channel 5.


However, CM4228 is a bit of a "special" case. As even though CM4228 is a antenna specifically designed for UHF(and is one of the best UHF antennas available), nevertheless, it is unique as UHF only antennas go as it does provide somewhat decent performance on VHF channels 7~13 as well. For this reason, if mounted outdoors a CM4228 would Probably work for WCPO-DT(and WKRC-DT when they move back to VHF) for you your location, and would especially probably be a good choice for a "hi-performance" UHF antenna if you get a rotor and want to receive the Dayton stations as well. I use a CM4228 as my Dayton antenna, and it actually receives WCPO-DT reliably most of the time off the side/back of the antenna.

Being a UHF "only" antenna, CM4228 is also quite a bit smaller than conventional VHF/UHF combo antennas such as CM3018, while offering better performance on UHF than such antennas. Although, as UHF antennas go it is fairly large, and it is also heavy(about 15lbs.) Therefore, when antenna is full of Ice, it can especially put a bit of windload on the mast, and whatever you have it mounted to - more than most small~medium size VHF/UHF combos, even though they are larger.

From your location, w/o use of a rotor an antenna with a little less directivity than a CM4228 might be a better choice, however given WCVN-DT+WSTR-DT are in somewhat "signficantly" different directions than the others, and that WSTR-DT is low power currently, with a directional transmitting antenna pattern which does not send much signal in your directon.

Overall, I'd think a small/Medium sized VHF/UHF combo antenna of conventional design(such as CM3018, although something a little smaller would probably work fine for you outdoors -- such as CM3016, or RS VU90) may be a better choice for you than a UHF antenna such as CM4221/CM4228.

You're right though ... A rotor would probably be a good idea for you ... Not only perhaps *may* it be necessary for WCVN-DT or WSTR-DT, You could also Use it to aim your antenna towards Dayton, and you'll likely receive at least some of the Dayton HD stations as well ....

In any event, if you can find a professional antenna installer who has good knowledge of OTA reception and experience with OTA/OTA antenna installs - They should be able to provide a good recommendation for what antenna(and or rotor/etc) you should use/purchase from them.


Installer comments :

I do seem to recall a post on this thread from about a year ago where someone had good results with a local OTA antenna installer - Not sure which one though, and I can't seem to dig it up. Hopefully others who have had good success with knowledable OTA installers in the area can chime in.

I do know it seems that from posts here in the past, the installers in this area seem to like to use Winegard antennas, and no matter what they use I think chances are good that you'll have to use the antenna from them.

Winegard does make some excellent antennas, however the "sensar" which is commonly installed with DirecTV systems for OTA(often, probably by installers whom aren't that knowledgable about OTA reception or antennas) is not one of them, IMO. An antenna such as the sensar(VHF/UHF), or winegard "squareshooter"(UHF - doesn't offer much on VHF) might work OK for you(Sensar/squareshooter is more in the "athestically pleasing" coat hanger catagory of antennas, than in the "well performing" catagory of antennas) for the Cincinnati stations, but a knowledable OTA installer using Winegard line of antennas would more likely recommend an antenna such as Winegard PR7010(small VHF/UHF combo), or perhaps something with a bit better performance than the 7010 if you are going with a rotor+are wanting reception of Dayton stations as well.

As I talked a little bit about farther above -- Hopefully, if the installer makes a "good" choice for the "right" antenna for your location -- pointing antenna at Downtown Cincinnati will get you all of the Cincinnati stations , but that may not be possible, as it is possible from your location that You may need a rotor from your location for Good reception of WCVN-DT(KET/PBS HD) in N KY. or WSTR-DT(WB HD - again at low power currently and not sending much signal in your direction), whose tower is several miles North of the others near Downtown.

Here is link to info on the Sensar :

http://www.winegard.com/offair/sensar.htm

Here is link to info on PR7010 :

http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/pr-7010.pdf

Info on all Winegard antennas can be found here :

http://www.winegard.com/offair/offairmain.htm

Hope this helps, good luck and let us know how it goes. Hopefully, you'll be able to find an installer who is experienced with OTA/OTA installs and whom will do a good job for you.

Keep me informed Dusterscott. I am considering the switch myself. There is something I am curious about on their pricing as well and maybe someone here already knows. When I look on the TW site and check out channel lineups for a STB, I see this legend:
Channel Legend
Digital Basic
Digital Basic High-Def
Digital Movie Tier
HDTV Tier
International
Lifeline
Premium Channels
Sports Tier
Standard
Variety Tier
Video On Demand/PPV
I am curious as to which of these are included in the Digipic 1000 or 2000 or 4000?
I assume that they only include the lifeline, standard and digital basic channels. So that would equal out to something like DPic1000=$50+HDDVR$8+converter for the bedroom$5+HD Tier$8+variety tier(I'm not giving up Speed channel and the wife isn't giving up CMT)I don't know the price of the variety tier but I'll guess another $5=$73 a month? Is that about right? The only thing promising here is the 30 day guarntee they have.

If this is the case I may stay with E* until after the MPG4 info is updated and then compare them all against each other again.

Can someone point me at the info for D*'s MPG4 info I'd like to start checking out what's going on with that.


My understanding:

EXTRA:
HDTV Tier ~$7
Sports Tier ~$3

Probably EXTRA:
International - $?
Digital Movie Tier $?

Digipic1000:
Lifeline
Standard
Digital Basic
Digital Basic High-Def
Video On Demand/PPV

Digipic2000 adds:
Variety Tier?
2 Premiums

Digipic4000 adds:
May add some of the above "Extra" tiers
2 more Premiums

[QUOTE=Nitewatchman]Kathy,

I thought you had a CM3018 in your attic, did you switch to a CM4228?

There is a picture of a CM4228 here :

http://www.channelmaster.com/images/4228.jpg

Here is a pciture of a CM3018 :

http://www.channelmaster.com/images/3018.jpg

Nitewatchman, you are correct, my antenna looks like the 3018. I have the Channel Master installation instructions, but it does not reference the model no. anywhere.

Off to reading the rest of your post, then calling around for an installer.

ok.. I have to bitch.. I know there was a lot of shouting last time we talked about this in the past...

.. but this whole styrene gas thing is nuts.. all the locals (5,9,12) have dropped into sd mode to tell people who shouldn't be in their house anyway to get out.. sigh...

jim

who has the dayton antenna down right now :(

I have to agree this story does not warrant all day coverage starting around 9 AM this morning on all 3 network affiliates in Cincinnati. WCPO is milking it dry and MNF fans have to suffer with no HD tonight. Oh well, at least the jaggies are gone this week.

Oh well, at least the jaggies are gone this week.

That's what I was thinking too when I looked at it for a few seconds before switching to Dayton antenna/WKEF-DT ABC HD Dayton ....

It does after all look better in SD on WCPO than WCPO's "jaggie filled" 1280x360 unique pixel Quasi-HD ....

who has the dayton antenna down right now

Just don't Jinx it by putting up a Dayton antenna and messing up WKEF-DT ;)

Just kidding .... that's usually MY department ... such as just after praising WXIX for planning to do local HD for a couple of UC games last year, the station goes off air for tower painting for first 1/2 of FIRST ever HD Bengals game on a broadcast network (Fox) ...... I think that's right anyway, and I believe the ABC MNF HD Bengals game(full of jaggies from WCPO-DT of course) was a week or so later ....

(Jinx alert ahead) .... 1 hour to go to the new Late Night 87 .... In HD

But I had to switch to the the Dayton channel to see David Letterman in HD.

Guess I jinxed it .....

Update: Didn't check Leno on WLWT-DT, but do notice WLWT-DT managed to run Conan in HD, even though the analog has a crawl with info up on the leaking tanker car/evacuation info/school closings/etc/etc/etc ..... Thought I might see it on "weatherplus" instead(nope not currently anyway), which seems to me like a good place for it(so does 12.2+9.2 for that matter) even though it isn't about the "weather"....

I know it's an technical issue when the digital switcher is slaved to the analog - but otherwise ... IF stations running 1080i are going to "reduce" HD PQ anyway by multicasting a "weather channel" -- . Why not use it for other info(such as the crawl on WKRC-DT that prevented Letterman from being in HD) besides just weather(or weather radar) as well instead of dropping from HD? Certianly we are smart enough to tune there(or to the analog station) if we want/need to see it, and seems to me it would meet a digital stations' public interest obligations ... at least until they can get the capability to insert HD crawls/etc ...

Got a scenario that I haven't been able to find after 2 hours of reading this thread that maybe you guys can help me with. Here is my setup:

Windows XP SP2 PC
MYHD 120
Indoor Silver Sensor antenna
Live in the Oakley area of Cincinnati

With that setup, by moving the antennae here and there, I can pick up all the OTA HD channels in Cincy. However, more often than not, I get audio glitches, and it's beginning to annoy me (esp. since football season is coming up). Of course I can mount an outdoor antennae, but that's not the option I want to go with just yet. Here is what I was thinking:

Windows XP SP2
MYHD 130 w/ QAM support
TWC Lifeline service

My questions are:
1. Has anyone used the myhd 130 card to pick up QAM channels over TWC
2. If so, were you able to get the channels using just the $10 lifeline fee?

Thanks.

Cbass98 - Welcome to AVSforum.


With that setup, by moving the antennae here and there, I can pick up all the OTA HD channels in Cincy. However, more often than not, I get audio glitches, and it's beginning to annoy me (esp. since football season is coming up).

Just in case ... first off ---- Are you sure it's a reception issue? For instance, if it is reception issue(signal going below threshold), the way the "system" works, You shouldn't just lose the audio stream but you'd lose the video stream(video dropouts or freezes or on-screen data corruption which occur simultanously with the audio dropouts) as well.

Besides the lifeline cable+QAM tuner option(assuming it works well with TW for your chosen hardware per the questions you asked), or the outdoor antenna option, if you haven't already done so you perhaps might try getting some extra feedline to move the antenna around a bit more(near a window facing towers might work better for instance) to find a "sweet spot" for the antenna for best reception, or you could try a "better" antenna in the attic(or another spot it will fit) ...

While Outdoor directional antenna aimed at the towers is probably your best bet for lowest cost(it's a permanent thing, you won't keep getting bills for it 10 years from now when it's still working) solution for the programming you're looking for ... and probably your best shot at reliable reception ... Even with an outdoor antenna(without rotor for instance) WSTR-DT(WB HD) may still be an issue for you, as I think it's tower is in a significantly different direction for you from the others ... but, you won't currently get that one via cable anyway, as TW Cincy doesn't carry it. Multipath could potentially still be a problem issue for you overall with an outdoor antenna as well ....

If I remember where Oakley is correctly, I'd think you should be in a quite strong signal area for the Cincinnati stations(and you might even need to use an attenuator with outdoor antenna especially as I suppose there is a possibility you could be getting TOO much signal), and one would think chances are good you might be able to get it to work one way or another from indoors ... Might take a lot of "experimenting" and working at it though ....

This is just a guess as its hard to say - as there are many factors which can effect OTA reception - Terrain in the signal path for instance can be a particularly difficult issue if there is a big hill your at the bottom of between you and the towers - it can cut down the signals significantly - especially UHF signals and for add'l attenuation by having the antenna indoors - But, I'd guess Multipath might be your biggest reception "issue" -- new chipsets, such as Zenith's 5th generation chip(not many products are using it currently, but I think there is one ATSC PC card out there that does) have been reported to do better when multipath is a particuarly difficult issue to overcome.

Multipath=Ghosting on analog OTA stations, weak signals=snow. Those are two of the three main issues that cause problems with OTA reception, the third issue involves interference(which probably isn't a problem in your case). Oftentimes the first two(or even all 3) issues are involved, - and while you can't usually detirmine which is which with digital broadcast TV, you can see all three of those problems directly on OTA analog stations.

I know you weren't asking about your OTA options(I can't answer your cable/QAM/hardware questions), but, nevertheless hopefully some of the above might help you out ...

if you haven't already done so you perhaps might try getting some extra feedline to move the antenna around a bit more(near a window facing towers might work better for instance)

... or not, depending on lead content and/or metallic screens :)

... or not, depending on lead content and/or metallic screens :)

Very true ... and, I've seen a "sweet spot" for reception be inside a closet rather than near a window ...

Nevertheless, "plain old glass" usually works pretty well, and allows the least amount of signal attenuation(don't notice any multipath issues with our "plain old glass" either) of all common materials in houses that I know of ... I've never checked out Plexiglass, but seems like that would work as well, maybe better ....

the third issue involves interference(which probably isn't a problem in your case).

Aargh ... was more than 1/2 way to counting sheep and realized I probably should not have said that ...

As interference + OTA goes ... for instance -- On top, or near top of the TV is usually not a good place for an antenna just as a basement is not a good place for antenna due to signal attenuation issues ... Believe it or not, the electronics used in TV's can be interference issues ..... And, I know it seems hard to believe for those of us who have been using OTA(including cell phones), but I've seen numerous posts over the years where people put HT's in the basement and put their antennas there too ...

Also, although more of an issue on lo-VHF channels 2-6, "Impulse noise" interference from lightning, or impulse noise/RFI interference from man-made sources(various indoor appliances can be a problem here) are also more of a problem on VHF channels 7-13 than is the case with UHF ... You can of course see this sort of interference as "static" or "sparkles" on analog OTA stations ....

On another note, Cbass98 also mentioned a Silver Sensor antenna ... Which is designed for UHF antenna, and therefore does not perform well on VHF ... WCPO-DT (ABC HD Cincinnati) of course transmits on VHF channel 10 ....

If the "glitches"(if they are reception related dropouts) he's talking about occur primarily on ABC HD/WCPO-DT, these issues "stand out" as possible "problem issues" ...

It's times like these when I wish that perhaps some of the "pros" that deal with these sorts of issues everyday(broadcast engineers/antenna installers) could put together a "OTA reception" document for folks .... A document which would be(and this would be the hardest part I'd think)hopefully "detailed" enough to be useful and accurate, while still simple enough so the most basic parts of it would be "short" and easily understood by those unfamiliar with wireless reception issues .... This is the closest thing I've seen which I think comes close to meeting those requirements :

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennadex.html

I get the audio drops even when i'm near 100% watching Leno on NBC. I've even used this with a Samsung 351 tuner and get the same audio blips (where the audio cuts out for like a second) but yet the video is still perfect. So still not exactly sure what's going on; that's why I don't think it's a reception issue. I'd rather just go with TWC + QAM to avoid all these 'antenna placement' variables.

jeff and all.. what is your opinion of the CM3016 - http://www.channelmaster.com/images/3016.jpg

I may pick it up ($35) at lowes and use it for the dayton stations with an a/b switch.. any comments on it??

Could I combine the sensar signal with it? or would the two cancel each other out?

jim

Jim,

First off, when yo get it up/etc. Be sure to join us on Dayton thread as well, which is here : http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6108179#post6108179

Now to your questions --

Antenna:

CM3016 is a VHF/UHF antenna -- You don't NEED the VHF(the biggest part of the antenna) section on it for Dayton digital stations - They all transmit on UHF, and have chosen to stay on UHF after analog shut off as well. You never know, but not much chance any of them will end up on VHF after analog shut off.

CM3016's UHF performance is not as good as smaller UHF antennas - especially on Higher UHF channels, where 3 of the Dayton stations are. Or the UHF performance of larger VHF/UHF combos such as CM3018 - which still don't offer the performance of UHF antennas such as CM4221 4 bay bowtie, or probably even Radio Shack U-75R. It is better on VHF or UHF than the Sensar, and if you want good reception of Dayton analog 2+7, it might be a good comprimise for you. Still might not do so well for the UHF digitals(WDTN-DT 50 - NBC, WKEF-DT 51 - ABC, WPTD-DT 58 PBS HD) on the higher UHF channels though.

CM3016 would probably be a good choice "overall choice" for a "small" Cincinnati antenna for you, Given WCPO-DT on VHF, and if you want good reception of Cininnati VHF analogs.

Since you probably won't need "too much" antenna(I show Dayton towers as about 26 miles from Kings Island, and Cincinnati towers about 21 miles from Kings Island) For Dayton, I'd probably go with something like the CM 4221 4 bay bowtie( about $25 here : http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=3&CAT=&PROD=SCM4221A ) , or a small~medium sized Yagi such as Radio Shack U-75R, or maybe for a little more performance(but more cost as well) one of these : http://www.antennasdirect.com/43XG_digital_antenna.html.

Walmart even has an antenna that might work well (see here : http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=2625047 ) -- but seems a little overexpensive to me when you can pick up a CM 4 bay bowtie which would probably provide just as well(or better, who knows!) for $25.

---------------------------------

Combining antennas or seperate feedlines+A/B switch ? :

On the combining, it would probably be best to use seperate feedlines the A/B switch. You can pick a "manual" one up for a few bucks at lowe's/etc, or pick up a Radio Shack Remote control A/B switch(you might want to wait on the latter as it'll cost as much as the antenna, but this is what I use - it is nice to have a remote for the switch - see here for info on it :

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F010%5F011%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D1968

There is of course no harm in TRYING combining the antennas onto the same feedline ... You MIGHT get lucky(chances are probably not good that will happen and provide "permantently" reliable reception from digital stations from both cities however). To try it though -- Just use a 2 way hybrid splitter/combiner - i.e. a "standard" 2 way spliiter used "backwards" -- In this application, the coax lengths between the antenna and the splitter isn't critical - doesn't matter if they are "different" lengths. Just don't "expect" it to work -- and even though it might work just fine when you install it, you might find it doesn't at "other times" such as during storms when the wind is moving the tree limbs around/etc/etc. IF you want - unless you are putting the Dayton antenna on a different mast and will need to run a 2nd feedline anyway ... IF they are going on the same mast(or near each other), if you want, seems like you might as well go ahead and try it before running the 2nd coax line.

Basically, the problem with combining 2 antennas aimed in different directions is, the antenna not aimed at either Dayton or Cincinnati will be picking up "nasty" signals off the back side of it from either DAyton or Cincinnati, and those signals will be "mixed in" with the "good signals" coming from the antenna that is actually aimed towards Dayton or Cincinnati. In other words, the antennas are "out of phase", and signals from each city will "come off" each antenna at slightly different times. And, how "bad" this problem can be can be a very "channel specific" thing. For instance, It might work fine for instance for WBDT-DT 18(WB HD), or WRGT-DT(Fox HD), and WDTN-DT 50(NBC HD), but might just tear up WKEF-DT 51 (ABC HD) or WHIO-DT 41 (CBS HD) or WPTD-DT 58(PBS HD/ThinkTV) ....

And again, it might work fine when you first install it, but really start "messing things up" when leaves fall off trees or the wind picks up/etc .....

-----------------------------

Importance of "proper" antenna spacing :


When you install the antenna, no matter if you try combining them or use seperate feedlines .... I would keep your antennas at least 3 feet apart - 5 feet would be better, 6 feet or more seperation would be better if you are using two VHF/UHF antennas. The rule of "thumb" usually used is at least 1/2 wavelenth apart at the lowest frequency you are going to use, to keep the antennas from "effecting" each other in any significant degree. But, this often involves a "compromise"(1 full wavelength apart is even better - and that is about 16 feet on VHF channel 2). 3 feet is more than enough for UHF, and a uhf antenna 3 feet away from a VHF or VHF/UHF antenna probably isn't going to hurt Hi-VHF 7-13 any. 5~6 feet is plenty for Hi-VHF in any case, and is a good "compromise" for Lo-VHF as well(all we have on lo-VHF are analog locals.


One of the big reasons we need to comprimise here is that "windload", and "iceload" issues can be more of an issue than one might think You really couldn't have a large VHF antenna seperated with 16 feet of mast from another antenna, without some serious guy wire work. - The larger the antenna's "area" - the more of an issue this is in any case. Which is another reason why a small(but "high performance") UHF only antenna would probably be a good idea for you for Dayton(since you don't need VHF for the digitals) If you're putting your Cincy/Dayton antennas on the same mast. Although, a sensar+a CM3016 or two CM3016's about 5 feet apart shouldn't be all that much of a problem either given a fairly sturdy mount.

------------------

Hope this helps, good luck and let us know how it goes. I think you said you were able to achieve decent results with the Sensar by aiming it towards Dayton -- In which case, you should easily(hopefully anyway - jinx alert!) get good reception from all the dayton digitals with an antenna such as CM4221 or RS U-75R. Probably even with a CM3016, but that might be slightly "iffy" --I probably tend to be a bit "conservative" on these things, but CM3016's performance on Upper UHF channels might be a "problem issue", especially if you have any nearby hills or obstructions towards the N/NNW, or a lot of trees ....

In which case, you should easily(hopefully anyway - jinx alert!) get good reception from all the dayton digitals with an antenna such as CM4221 or RS U-75R.

I picked up that U-75R antenna the other day (basically it's the UHF part of the VU-90XR.) It's just ok ... good for about 30mi given "full" power stations, outdoor mounting and reasonable terrain. The CM4221 is a much better choice for the $.

I'd rather just go with TWC + QAM to avoid all these 'antenna placement' variables.

Unless someone is using the same card with TW Cincy and can respond to your questions here ... best I can suggest is to search this thread for various QAM tuner model #'s(there have been a couple of reports, not sure of the exact hardware, and some have been for insight in NKY rather than TW Cincy) -- also, there have been a couple of folks reporting their results with their QAM capable PC tuner cards on Dayton thread - in the case of the latter, their reports seem to indicate it works for them (even with basic "analog cable" or "lifeline" subscriptions), but the channel numbers they get sometimes seem a little "odd". This may be due more to the drivers/software for their hardware - perhaps not supporting PSIP, or PSIP via cable not supported by either the station or the cableco. I don't think it's a "requirement" with cable as it is for OTA, but Stations can send "different" PSIP info(such as concerning channel remapping) for QAM cable.

Another good place to look would probably be for a thread or info in Hardware area(or HTPC area) of AVS for info on the MyHD card you are looking for(specific model number).

I'm sure you'll be able to dig up at least some info ... but you may just have to be a bit of a "pioneer" when it comes to trying out the MyHD with QAM to see how(and if) it works on TW Cincy's System. If that ends up being the case, if you get a chance be sure to post how it goes here ... So the next guy looking at the same hardware and QAM via TW, will have something a little more to go on ...

I picked up that U-75R antenna the other day (basically it's the UHF part of the VU-90XR.) It's just ok ... good for about 30mi given "full" power stations, outdoor mounting and reasonable terrain. The CM4221 is a much better choice for the $.

I agree ... U-75R is probably less desireable on high UHF(such as where 3 of the dayton stations are) ... as well, but perhaps slightly better on Hi-UHF than UHF section on CM3016 ....

In Cincinnati, the highest channel a DTV station on is 35, which is probably one reason why small VHF/UHF combos generally seem to work quite well for Reception of Cincy digitals ...

1/2 the Dayton stations are located above channel 50 though, and beyond 30 miles especially antennas with better performance on hi-UHF such as CM4221/CM4228, XG91, DB8/etc/etc are probably a good idea in many cases ... especially so when terrain or even a lot of trees around as signal attenuation issues, as those things are more of an issue the "higher" the UHF channel ....

Station power I think can be a factor here in some cases as well ... WDTN-DT 50 at 1000KW ERP, and WKEF-DT 51 at 138KW ERP(yep, that's their full power allocation), and WPTD-DT 58 at 250KW ERP, all 3 of those using a non-directional antenna pattern ....

I just grabbed one myself.. just to try - they have a 30day return policy.. question.. there is no place to hook up an 75 ohm f connector, nor is there any cables included - do I need to buy something else or am I missing a piece?

thanks

jim

edit: crap.. is this what I need? http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=15-1140#

I picked up that U-75R antenna the other day (basically it's the UHF part of the VU-90XR.) It's just ok ... good for about 30mi given "full" power stations, outdoor mounting and reasonable terrain. The CM4221 is a much better choice for the $.

edit: crap.. is this what I need? http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=15-1140#

Yes. They usually include one with the antenna(in the box however). No coax for your feedline(or splitter/combiner if you're going to try combining your two antennas) will be included however - you'll have to get that seperately.

thanks jeff.. I guess I will have to shell out $3 for the part :)

Jim,

You might want to pick up some of this stuff(it's cheap) for waterproofing your outdoor coax connections as well :

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=278-1645

The little "boot" that comes with the balun(300ohm~75ohm matching transformer in your link) often don't hold up very well.

You'll want to use waterproof F-connectors for your outdoor connectors as well, but water can sometimes still get in the coax if you don't use something "extra"(such as the RS coax seal, or RTV sealant the latter which is messy - but is what I use for extra protection for the connections to the ground blocks as in my case they are in a spot where water runoff is an issue, I don't know what else would work for those. Electrical tape can be used as a "last resort" in some "applications" .....

Whatever you do for waterproofing -- the main thing is, You don't want water getting inside the Coax(that goes for DBS as well), with OTA, especially when reception of Hi-UHF channels is involved ....

------------------------------

I just want to thank WRKC, because I will no longer be watching their station for HD. WHIO-DT has a much better image, no stupid radar subchannel, and has Letterman in HD on his first night. I don't understand how WKRC could go from webhopper picture, to a great, no artifact filled picture, then back to garbage with the radar. I watched "Prison Break" on WXIX and I noticed some artifacts there too! So I guess I will start watching all Dayton Stations because they seem to know what viewers want and can put out a decent picture thats not destroyed by compression problems. If I want to know the weather, the tv stations interrupt programming enough already, and there is a great innovation out there called the INTERNET! Sorry about the rant, but I just don't understand what goes through some of the people that run tv stations, I have no problems with engineers, except in the case with WCPO.

thanks jeff.. I guess I will have to shell out $3 for the part :)

LOL ... yep, I had to make a second run down to the shack too. :)

Jim,

You might want to pick up some of this stuff(it's cheap) for waterproofing your outdoor coax connections as well :

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=278-1645--

Oh, so now you tell us! ;)

:mad: I know this has been discussed and I'm a day late (thanks to TWC DVR) but...

I cannot believe the ridiculous way WCPO is hyping the non-story of the leaking railroad car during MNF. A live break-in from Clyde -- come on.... :mad:

Jeff and anyone else wanting to chime in,
Antenna installation on the roof is getting closer. Currently have an appointment for installation this Friday. But may cancel to go with the second installer, who seemed very knowledgable. Both installers like to install Winegard antennas and Channel Master rotators. I didn't get the model number of the Winegard the first installer uses, but the second installs either the 7010 or the 7015.

I presently have a CM3016 hanging in the attic (thanks to you pointing out), and my plan was to have them install this on the roof with a CM rotator.

I just read a reply you made to Jim possibly suggesting another antenna other than the CM3016. Sounds like Jim is in the Kings Island area so his opportunity to receive both Cinci & Dayton HD is likely far better than mine, since I am in the SE corner of Cinci outside the 275 loop. But, if there is any chance of receiving the Dayton HD channels I want to try.

I want to purchase the one that gives me the best opportunity for great HD reception, therefore price is not the primary concern.

As you may remember I have been dragging my feet on putting an antenna on my roof, because my HOA didn't want me to do it, although they voted to allow me to do so. (Yes, I know, I could do it anyway, but wanted to be a good neighbor) But my desire for HD reception has swayed me to 'go to the roof'.

Look forward to your recommendation.

Anyone know if the firworks Sunday night are going to be broadcast in HD? I won't even ask about 5.1

So I know you all were waiting for this :) but I can't help it.

How can WKRC ruin the premier of Letterman in HD?

The city apparently has a bunch of yokels runing their TV stations.

That was so funny I almost crapped my pants. On the Late Show WKRC flipped the switch (for a killer gas update) just as Dave was kinda showing off the wider aspect of HDTV.

Hello... newbie question if someone has time.

I'm in N KY (Erlanger) and get a great signal on my HR10-250 with a simple old antenna we had on our analog TV's. For every Cincinnati local (WCPO, WXIX, WKRC, WSTR) other than WLWT I'm getting fabulous locks on 90+ signals. For WLWT, however, I'm getting all sorts of problems. I get lots of variance in the signal and can't get a lock to go more than 30 seconds on that station.

Interestingly, I have a similar problem on WCET, which according to antennaweb has those towers in the same location. Are there any known problems with WLWT or this tower, or am I simply bumping up against some other problem (like a specific obstruction on that compass heading)? I'm locking the others so well, I'm confident I didn't get one of the many lemon HR10-250's.

Anyone else in NKY having a problem?

THANKS!
-Joe

I live right next to the AJ Jolly park/golf course and I get WLWT perfectly with my HR10-250. What I can't get is WSTR but I can't get it with any box I've tried.

How does that help you? It doesn't. :) But never fear, some real expertise will come by soon.

peace . . .


Hello... newbie question if someone has time.

I'm in N KY (Erlanger) and get a great signal on my HR10-250 with a simple old antenna we had on our analog TV's. For every Cincinnati local (WCPO, WXIX, WKRC, WSTR) other than WLWT I'm getting fabulous locks on 90+ signals. For WLWT, however, I'm getting all sorts of problems. I get lots of variance in the signal and can't get a lock to go more than 30 seconds on that station.

Interestingly, I have a similar problem on WCET, which according to antennaweb has those towers in the same location. Are there any known problems with WLWT or this tower, or am I simply bumping up against some other problem (like a specific obstruction on that compass heading)? I'm locking the others so well, I'm confident I didn't get one of the many lemon HR10-250's.

Anyone else in NKY having a problem?

THANKS!
-Joe

Antenna installation on the roof is getting closer.


Good news! Glad you were able to find a "OTA knowledgable" installer.

I'd really recommend that you'll likely get the best recommendation from a "OTA-knowledgable" pro-installer, especially as they will have a better idea of what you need and what you want once they come out for the install, and you will probably best be able to base your decision on what to do concerning the choices they offer you based upon what they recommend, and also most importantly, what YOU want :

But here are some thoughts/opinions in case they help with your decisions, and hopefully some of the info can be of use to others as well. As usual, probably longer than it should be and probably more than you wanted to know :


I presently have a CM3016 hanging in the attic (thanks to you pointing out), and my plan was to have them install this on the roof with a CM rotator.


I might be thinking of someone else, but I thought you might have said you may have had to bend some of the longer elements a bit on your attic antenna in order to get it to fit ... whether or not that is the case, it still might be quite difficult to remove the antenna from attic without damaging it, and you don't want to put up an antenna outside with even just slightly "loose" elements ... And for these reasons, I probably wouldn't "recommend" removing it and installing that antenna outside.

Otherwise, if the installer agreed to do it --- I suppose you could do that if you wanted, and the CM3016 would for the most part probably be a fine choice for reception of the Cincinnati stations for you, but it probably wouldn't be a good choice if you want the best possible HD reception from both Cincinnati and Dayton, or perhaps the best shot at the currently weak signal WSTR-DT, WB HD Cincinnati squirts in your direction -- which however should improve once they go to full power -- which should occur on or before July 2006. The rotor also might prove to be more useful to you with a "better" antenna+for Dayton stations.

If it were me, and I had to "choose" just out of the antennas models you mentioned in your post, I'd probably go with PR7015 as it should also give you a good shot at the Dayton stations, and would seem to me to be a excellent overall choice for you.

I would also note that one reason why pro-installers like the winegard antennas is because they are well built, and one can generally probably expect them to last longer than an antenna such as CM3016. Mounted outside, barring "disaster"(tornado/etc) you can probably expect most antennas, including CM3016 to last about 15 years, but they'll probably last longer than that ... I think you can add a few years to that for Winegard antennas such as PR7010 or PR7015 -- and probably many years ... I don't think its probably all that uncommon in fact for well built, properly installed outdoor antenna setups to last, and still "work" for 30 years or more ...


I just read a reply you made to Jim possibly suggesting another antenna other than the CM3016. Sounds like Jim is in the Kings Island area so his opportunity to receive both Cinci & Dayton HD is likely far better than mine, since I am in the SE corner of Cinci outside the 275 loop. But, if there is any chance of receiving the Dayton HD channels I want to try.


While it's true reception of Dayton stations may be easier for Jim, and may require "less" antenna than you might need ... And a mast-mount preamp *may* be a good idea for you for Dayton reception as well ... Nevertheless, I wouldn't say his chances are "far better" than yours. Why? Because you are still within the coverage area of most Dayton stations.

I'll demonstrate this with predicted coverage maps from FCC for dayton digital/HD stations as follows.

While there are many factors involved(terrain shielding, feedline/splitter loss if a long coax run or if you are splitting the signal a lot/etc) which these maps don't take into account :

There are no guarentees, but From anywhere within The area on the inside of the blue line on the maps at links below you can generally expect to be able to receive the signal with a properly aimed, directional outdoor antenna that offers performance very similar to the Winegard PR7015. The closer you are to the broadcast towers, the more likely it is antennas with less performance will also provide good reception.

Now -- I would also point out that in the one case you are "outside" of the blue lines, it doesn't necessarily mean you WON'T be able to receive that station -- It *might* mean that, but with the "right" antenna(and preamp/etc) it is sometimes possible to receive stations from outside their predicted coverage area.

Here is predicted coverage map for WKEF-DT 51(remaps to 22.1), ABC HD Dayton :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT562360.html

So, you are within predicted coverage area for ABC HD Dayton.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is predicted coverage map for WHIO-DT 41(remaps to 7.1), CBS HD(with DD 5.1) Dayton :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT997869.html

you are within CBS HD Dayton predicted coverage area.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is predicted coverage map for WDTN-DT 50(remaps to 2.x), NBC HD(With DD 5.1) Dayton:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT617874.html

As you can see, you are well within NBC HD Dayton's predicted Coverage area.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Here is predicted coverage map for WRGT-DT 30(remaps to 45.1), FOX HD Dayton :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT421344.html

So, You're within the coverage area for Fox HD dayton ...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is predicted coverage map for WPTD-DT 58(remaps to 16.x), PBS HD Dayton:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT658777.html

So, You are within coverage area for PBS HD Dayton.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is predicted coverage map for WBDT-DT 18(remaps to 26.1), WB HD(and DD 5.1) Dayton :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT628342.html

Note: So, you are outside the coverage area for this station. While I wouldn't be surprised at all if it turns out it can be received with the "right" antenna setup from your location, I wouldn't count on it, or necessarily go to great lengths to try to receive it. I've yet to see anything "different" from them HD wise, and WSTR-DT, WB HD Cincinnati has had all the WB HD(and DD 5.1), as has this station. For various reasons, I would be surprised however if this station's coverage area doesn't grow larger after analog shut off.

------------------------------------------------------------------

If you also notice, the coverage area for 5 of the 6 Dayton Digital/HD stations ALL pretty much cover the entire Cincinnati metro area ... Including those partsi of it in Northern KY, Generally South to about Florence. WRGT-DT 30 is likely a difficult one for those South of the river and south of WXIX-DT 29 tower though, since it's on 1st adjacent channel to WXIX-DT, and shooting through WXIX tower with WXIX/WRGT digitals right next to each other can likely make it very difficult for the receiver to be selective enough to be able to pull the weaker signal from WRGT-DT out of the "mud" with such a strong signal just "next door" ...


I want to purchase the one that gives me the best opportunity for great HD reception, therefore price is not the primary concern.


Be sure to also tell your installer that, and that you want a rotor as well, so he can come up with a good recommendation for the best antenna he has for what you want -- and probably a good idea to tell him that you want to receive as many Cincinnati+Dayton HD stations as is possible, and therefore that you want a rotor.

You might want to also ask about a good mast mount preamp(both channel master and winegard make good ones), and if he thinks a preamp might be a good idea for Dayton stations, or overall. I'd think A preamp would be a very good idea for you for Dayton, but might not be a good idea overall, as you might get "too much" signal from some of the Cincinnati stations -- although -- since WSTR-DT (WB HD Cincinnati) is currently at low power, and their directional transmitting antenna doesn't currently send much in your direction, preamp may especially be a good idea for them as well. But, if your preamp is "Overloaded" by strong signals, it may hurt more than it helps for Cincinnati stations...

BUT -- There really should be no reason to go "overboard" here either, and some "compromise" may be in order ... Not only where cost vs. performance is concerned, but also where performance vs. the perhaps negative reaction you might get from the neigbhors if you put an antenna "farm" on your roof ....

would an "antenna farm" and spending a lot more money perhaps get you one or two more stations from Dayton/etc ? Yes -- that would be a very good possibility I'd think ... But, I doubt you'll really gain much for all that, and my opinion would be an antenna such as a Winegard PR-7015 with rotor, and Maybe a low noise, medium or high gain mast mount preamp would probably be about the perfect choice all around for you ...

Update: While I think the above would be a good overall choice .... Thinking a little more about it though -- If you really *want* the best possible Dayton reception from your location -- You *might* want to think about seperate Dayton/Cincinnati antennas, as Jim is doing - on seperate feedlines with A/B switch near your TV to select between them. You *might* also be able to alleviate the need for a rotor this way(but again, you still might need a rotor for WSTR-DT or WCVN-DT for Cincinati on your cincinnati antenna). You wouldn't need a rotor for any of the Dayton stations, if you were using a "dedicated" UHF antenna. In this case, For Cincinnati, an antenna such as CM3016 or PR7010 would probably be fine, and for Dayton(which has no VHF digitals, and it looks like it never will at this point - they're all on UHF), You'd probably want to use among the among the highest gain UHF-fringe antennas - such as CM4228, or Antennasdirect XG91 - With a good mast mount preamp such as CM7777.

Again though, your installer should be able to make the best recommendation for you. He will probably have equipment to check the signal levels(he may only be able to do this for the analog stations - although that should help a lot), AND He should ensure everything is working properly after the install, and that if getting the "best reception possible" from all stations is your primary goal, that is what you are actually getting after the install - If it turns out this isn't the case at first, he should be able to make adjustments(such as adding a preamp/etc) to improve things .... This sort of "service" probably won't be inexpensive, but, especially If the installer you get is knowledable about OTA, this is the sort of service they should be providing, IMO.

------------------------------

By the way, while composing this post, I also looked at the manufacturers specs on Winegard PR7010 and PR7015, and compared them to CM3016's specs. So, I thought I would provide a little info on those here. Hard to say in any exact way -- given you can't probably "Trust" manufacturer's specs such as this, but The PR-7010 looks to provide similar performance to CM3016, and the PR-7015 provides better performance than either - especially perhaps, most importantly on UHF.

So, If you want to look at the specs, these specs are available at links farther below :

Notes if you want to try to interpet the specs a bit :

higher numbers for gain(expressed as "gain over reference dipole" in winegard spec sheets) denotes the antenna can "pull in" more signal on the frequencies(channels) specified.

On the winegard spec sheets, lower numbers for "beamwidth at 1/2 power points" basically means the antenna has better directivity(which is good for rejecting multipath+increasing gain) -- You won't see really "low" numbers however from any antenna, especially on lower VHF channels.

Higher numbers are good for "Front-back ratio" on the winegard spec sheets -- as higher numbers also mean better directivity -- In this case, in the ability of the antenna to "reject" signals off the back side of the antenna.

"narrow" looking "polar plots" on the winegard spec sheets also are good, and indicate the antenna has good directivity. Again, in this case, you won't see really "narrow" polar plots on lower channels.

Keep in mind -- One of the basics of antenna design is that it when you increase directivity, you increase gain. So, along with proper aiming towards the signal source(transmitters/towers - for which a rotor is often desireable) the attributes of a hi-gain antenna with good directivity are what we look for. And, basically, the way you increase gain(and directivity) is to make the antenna "bigger"+ with more "elements", which also allows the antenna to be more responsive over a wider range of frequencies -- I.e. pull in weaker signals.

The "mileage" figures on the Channel master chart are really pretty useless for any "meaningful" data, except to show in a "basic" way that the antennas with the "bigger" mileage numbers can pull in more signal/have more gain/better directivity.

Spec sheet for Winegard PR7015 :

http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/pr-7015.pdf

Spec sheet for Winegard PR7010:

http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/pr-7010.pdf

spec sheet for CM3016 (just has basic info on the specs on a chart listing all CM antennas :

http://www.channelmaster.com/pdf/AntMatrix.pdf

live right next to the AJ Jolly park/golf course and I get WLWT perfectly with my HR10-250. What I can't get is WSTR but I can't get it with any box I've tried.

How does that help you? It doesn'tBut never fear, some real expertise will come by soon.



I don't know about the latter -- Unless there is something that "really stands out", it is very difficult to "guess" at what exactly might be causing any given reception issue .... but, you might be surprised at how reports just such as you've given are helpful for others ... Just knowing the guy "across the street" can get such and such station when you can't can be helpful ...

I don't know exactly where you are, but I can tell you that WSTR-DT is currently operating at low power under "special Temporary authority" from FCC, AND with a directional antenna pattern which doesn't send much power in some directions - especially to SE and East -- It gets better if you are directly south or SW of them, still a bit of a null to the SSE of their tower, though.

If you are using an indoor antenna -- combine the above with the add'l attenuation issues with having the antenna indoors, and those might be reasons why you are having problems with WSTR-DT. The situation with them to some extent should get better before, or around July 2006 as that's when FCC's "Use it or lose it" "full power" deadline goes into effect for WSTR-DT - Well, Full power is really probably not the right word .... What they have to do, basically, is replicate their Analog stations' service area by that date, or other stations can "move in" and take away parts of their service area ...

-------------------------------------------------------

For every Cincinnati local (WCPO, WXIX, WKRC, WSTR) other than WLWT I'm getting fabulous locks on 90+ signals.


Well, there are actually 7 digital stations currently transmitting in Cincinnati, One in Northern KY(from Taylor Mill) See first post of this thread for more info on all the cincinnati area stations.


For WLWT, however, I'm getting all sorts of problems. I get lots of variance in the signal and can't get a lock to go more than 30 seconds on that station.

Interestingly, I have a similar problem on WCET, which according to antennaweb has those towers in the same location. Are there any known problems with WLWT or this tower, or am I simply bumping up against some other problem (like a specific obstruction on that compass heading)?


Joe, WLWT and WCET analog and digital broadcast from the SAME tower -- The digital stations actually broadcast from different antennas(their patterns are different)not very far apart on the same "mast" I believe. WGUC-FM also broadcasts From that tower. It's in Clifton, the "closest" one to the east of I-75 ...

My best guess is that you are may be having a multipath issue "specific" to that transmitting location/tower. But -- it's Just a guess --- Could be something else as well. Since WLWT-DT and WCET-DT are on first adjacent channels and multipath can be a very frequency specific thing .... That's my best guess anyway. Ghosting on analogs=multipath - so, what WCET 48 looks like especially MIGHT tell you something -- but then again, it might not, as again multipath can be very frequency specific.

Best suggestions I can probably come up with would be to move your antenna around+try to find a sweet spot for it, and/or improve your antenna setup a bit. If you're using "rabbit ears" or UHF loop antenna, There are a couple of "better than rabbit ears" UHF indoor antennas out there these days, that have improved directivity(good for multipath issues) over "rabbit ears" .. Such as the "Siver sensor", and the Radio Shack Double Bowtie ... But, keep in mind WCPO digital transmits on VHF 10(WKRC digital will be moving back to VHF 12 after analog shut off) and you might need a VHF "rabbit ears" as well. But, antennas are antennas, and RF is RF .... -- a good one for analog reception works good for digital as well ...

Another thing to talk about though ..... WLWT-DT transmits on UHF channel 35, with a "full power" signal(1000KW ERP) and "omni-directional" antenna pattern. WCET-DT Transmits on UHF channel 34 -- right next door -- At high power(215 KW ERP currently is sent in MOST directions) --- but with a directional antenna pattern that doesn't favor the south. The biggest null in their pattern(If the pattern actually matches what it says on FCC site) is on 160degree or 200 degree heading from their tower, and is shown as .19 relative field strength on FCC site, which equates to only 7.7 KW ERP being sent in those directions. We calcuate this like this : (.19x19) x 215,000 watts = 7, 761 watts.

While The WCET-DT predicted coverage map here looks more optimistic than you might think : http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DS656788.html

Remember that those coverage maps are based on an assumption that the viewer is using a directional Outdoor antenna up 30 feet, with 10db of gain on the frequency being received. (4db of signal loss per 100FT of feedline is also assumed). Terrain is not taken into account in these signal maps.

I'm at 3035&RT17 in between Independence and Ft Wright and receive all 6 networks w/o any problem.WSTR-DT is my lowest signal strength reading,but it is still stable for picture and sound on both my TS360&HR10-250.Living on top of a hill probably helps though.

A few years back and the last time I ran cable for my dbs dish ultimately I had intermittent failure that was traceable back to leaking connections. I just ran another line for the extra Tivo HD tuner(yay!) and wanted to be sure I didn't fudge this one up as well and was wondering how to best waterproof it.

So thanks much (yet again) for the timely tip.

peace . . .


Jim,

You might want to pick up some of this stuff(it's cheap) for waterproofing your outdoor coax connections as well :

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=278-1645

The little "boot" that comes with the balun(300ohm~75ohm matching transformer in your link) often don't hold up very well.

You'll want to use waterproof F-connectors for your outdoor connectors as well, but water can sometimes still get in the coax if you don't use something "extra"(such as the RS coax seal, or RTV sealant the latter which is messy - but is what I use for extra protection for the connections to the ground blocks as in my case they are in a spot where water runoff is an issue, I don't know what else would work for those. Electrical tape can be used as a "last resort" in some "applications" .....

Whatever you do for waterproofing -- the main thing is, You don't want water getting inside the Coax(that goes for DBS as well), with OTA, especially when reception of Hi-UHF channels is involved ....

------------------------------

I have one of the bigger outdoor radio shack antennas (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D2152&MSCSProfile=745D84CBF04D14A48AA6FF9C89D722C0BA68C1B04FE38467 8A5285FCD6E056B17AF21627FDABE316B90B3C038D68EBD6B7F9F3BD1712 EAA9951ACB2590A05C6517EFE46941FEFDD1985D4EFD6321F5E70B4DE9B6 C1D45512DCD9FB3DBCACB9477CBF5275B136BAD67B60F2E9D4B27DDDA60A 1D83AA73EE4E1003AB5BB1146FF64DF8B3C43FB1168C) mounted about 8 ft above my roof line. I get great signals from all the other stations but I am south east of Cincy (about 10 miles south of Alexandria on 27) and based on your info on page 1 I just assumed the low power was the issue.

I was just speaking conversationally, I honestly cannot say I have put a real effort into receiving WSTR. It's very possible I just don't have it aimed quite right. The deal is I put it up last year during the NFL playoffs and was mostly focused on Fox and CBS. I was lining it up by myself and once I got all but WSTR I was satisfied. Plus I get WSTR via D* and Insight (free lifeline) so I've just not been compelled to venture to the roof again :)

peace . . .


here is my antenna web data so I expect with some effort I could receive it.


WSTR 64 WB CINCINNATI OH 346° 22.9

I don't know about the latter -- Unless there is something that "really stands out", it is very difficult to "guess" at what exactly might be causing any given reception issue .... but, you might be surprised at how reports just such as you've given are helpful for others ... Just knowing the guy "across the street" can get such and such station when you can't can be helpful ...

I don't know exactly where you are, but I can tell you that WSTR-DT is currently operating at low power under "special Temporary authority" from FCC, AND with a directional antenna pattern which doesn't send much power in some directions - especially to SE and East -- It gets better if you are directly south or SW of them, still a bit of a null to the SSE of their tower, though.

If you are using an indoor antenna -- combine the above with the add'l attenuation issues with having the antenna indoors, and those might be reasons why you are having problems with WSTR-DT. The situation with them to some extent should get better before, or around July 2006 as that's when FCC's "Use it or lose it" "full power" deadline goes into effect for WSTR-DT - Well, Full power is really probably not the right word .... What they have to do, basically, is replicate their Analog stations' service area by that date, or other stations can "move in" and take away parts of their service area ...

-------------------------------------------------------

Jeff,
Just called to check with installer that is scheduled to come out Friday on the model of Winegard they use. He said they use a Winegard HD7082P, and the other guy I spoke with last night said he uses a Winegard PR-7015. I took a look at the specs, and an not sure which is better. Would you mind taking a look and giving your opinion.
Thanks

It's very possible I just don't have it aimed quite right. ......

here is my antenna web data so I expect with some effort I could receive it.


WSTR 64 WB CINCINNATI OH 346° 22.9

Yeah, a little antenna aiming might do the trick ... However .... Adjusting for magnetic deviaation(about +5~6 degrees from True North in our area), and looking at WSTR-DT's antenna pattern info on FCC site (From the entry for Their STA, labeled "DS" for channel 33 here (2nd entry down) :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=WSTR&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

And, using the reverse bearing from your location(the bearing from WSTR tower), which in your case would be about 160 degrees ... It shows a .393 relative field value for their antenna pattern for 160 deg. bearing, so should be :

(.393x.393) x 17,100 watts = 2,641 Watts being sent in your direction ....

That isn't all that much for UHF, and WSTR's tower is farther North(The "star Tower" in Finneytown) than the others ... Then again, I have no problems receiving them up here(except from indoors), and it's only about ~8db less than what they are sending up this way.

Each 2x increase(+3db) or -2x decrease in power is about the same as adding or removing a 3db splitter in feedline ... Or another way to look at it is you get 1/2 the amount of signal for every -3db "loss" ....

--------------------------------------------------------

Another problem I'm wondering about that might be an issue for some concerning the selectivity of their receiver is what happens if you have a strong signal on 1st adjacent channel, and a weak one right next door ... For instance ... WSTR-DT 33 has its biggest nulls (according to FCC info) to East and SE of its tower. At 130 degrees(SE) of their tower, it shows a relative field value of .183 ... That's only 572 WATTS ERP ... Now that really isn't much at all, and it's no wonder I think I've yet to hear a report from SE of their tower reporting good reception ....

And, While in the same direction(since towers are in a bit different spot as well, the heading to a given spot to the SE is a bit different for WCET-DT), adjacent channel WCET-DT 34 sends something between 150,000 and 200,000 watts ... Which is Something like a "theoretcial" 25~26db difference in signal levels on 1st adjacent channel if you are in a "spot" say, 10 miles out at 130 degree bearing from WSTR tower ... And it could actually be more as the "actual" situation might be a bit different than the "theoretical" difference ...

Now, If I recall correctly, I think FCC planning for this sort of think is based upon co-located DTV stations are supposed to "work" with our receivers if there is as much something around 46db difference in signal level between stations on first adjacent channels(I doubt FCC would have "Ok'ed" stations operating permits if they didn't meet those criteria) ... BUT WSTR and WCET are NOT co-located, and do we know "such and such" DTV receivers really are selective enough to meet the FCC criteria? PLUS you have stations also operating on what were previously "taboo" channel relationships which is supposed to be "OK" with DTV ----- -- n -2,(WKRC-DT for instance), N +2/etc ... .

It works "better" if first adjacent channel stations are transmitting off the same tower, such as WLWT-DT 35 and WCET-DT 34 are, and WPTO-DT 28/WXIX-DT 29 off Fox's tower .... It also seems to work for NTSC stations next to a DTV station .. such as WCPO 9 and WCPO-DT 10 ..... BUT it doesn't work for NTSC stations, and that is one of the reasons DTV is more "spectrum efficent", and why they can refarm ch 52-69 for other uses ...

Still, I wonder if these sorts of first adjacent channel issues can be an issue for some receiver models out there ..... While from what I can see here, DTV really does seem to "work" remarkably well when it comes to this stuff .... Nevertheless, It really would be interesting to see info on DTV reception field tests in our area, or to hear about some of the field measurements and findings from what the station engineers in our area have found .....

Jeff,
Just called to check with installer that is scheduled to come out Friday on the model of Winegard they use. He said they use a Winegard HD7082P, and the other guy I spoke with last night said he uses a Winegard PR-7015. I took a look at the specs, and an not sure which is better. Would you mind taking a look and giving your opinion.
Thanks

Specs on the HD7082P are definitely better from what the spec sheet says. 3db or more gain across hi-VHF and UHF bands than the PR-7015, better directivity, F/B ratio as high as 20db -- according to specs.

That extra performance(the bit of extra gain especially) could very well help you with Dayton --- and it's still a "moderately" sized antenna as VHF/UHF combo's go(but probably not "moderately" priced). ....

So, I'd go with HD7082P for the bit of extra performance, if the decision was to be based solely based on which antenna is "better"/offers better performance, and not necessarily(which may or not be "moot" issues) involving other issues, such as cost or which is the best installer/etc ...

Let us know how it goes ... I want to say something "optimstic"(as I expect things should turn out well for you, but I'm afraid I'll jinx it ;) ....

so I'll just say Fingers crossed here that it works out well for you, as I know you've been dealing with less than adequete reception off your indoor setup for quite a while ...

The last two evenings (first 2 Letterman HD shows) the show starts out in HD, but about 10-minutes in it switches back to standard def. I watched for about 20-min. after that both times and it never went back to HD. I tried power cycling my 8300HD DVR and E55A20, still no HD.

Does this sound like a hardware problem or a programming problem to you pros out there?

I'm on Time Warner Cable Cincinnati, using channel 912.

Thanks in advance.

The last two evenings (first 2 Letterman HD shows) the show starts out in HD, but about 10-minutes in it switches back to standard def. I watched for about 20-min. after that both times and it never went back to HD. I tried power cycling my 8300HD DVR and E55A20, still no HD.

Does this sound like a hardware problem or a programming problem to you pros out there?

I'm on Time Warner Cable Cincinnati, using channel 912.

Thanks in advance.


If it is not a problem with your equipment, it must then be the station?

I don't know about your area as it is a larger market but I have called my stations out of Portland and actually talked to the engineers about signal strength, HD and programming. If you call the general number at a station and talk to a receptionist, ask for the engineer or someone who could help you with your questions. They actually stayed on the phone with me for considerable amounts of time answering all my questions. Many of them I believe like to hear from people as it gives them feedback on how their signal is.

I went over to TWC in Middletown this morning to look at what they had to offer for HD PQ. What a disappointment! They had a Pace STB with no DVI output. The four CSR's they had working in there couldn't tell me the difference between component cables or composite cables if their lives depended on it. The picture was jittery, jagged lines etc. Surely TW PQ is better than this! Does anybody know where I can see what TWC has to offer? I'd like to navigate through the STB menus and see what kind of PQ I could expect on an HD-compatible TV.

I know they had a Pace with DVI. I used it before I went with the SA 8300 DVR. IIRC it is the newer version of the Pace and had better quality and stability. I was very pleased, but wanted an HD alternative to my TiVo so traded it in for the SA.

The last two evenings (first 2 Letterman HD shows) the show starts out in HD, but about 10-minutes in it switches back to standard def. I watched for about 20-min. after that both times and it never went back to HD. I tried power cycling my 8300HD DVR and E55A20, still no HD.

Does this sound like a hardware problem or a programming problem to you pros out there?

I'm on Time Warner Cable Cincinnati, using channel 912.

Thanks in advance.

I watched the David Letterman 'premier' in hd the other night. I wasn't getting it in HD out of Cinci so I switched over to the Dayton channel to watch it. It's not your hardware, it's the station. I get my programming OTA.

If it is not a problem with your equipment, it must then be the station?


There has been a local emergency situation earlier this week and stations have been dropping to SD to insert SD crawls that MAY have been the issue involved(It was Monday Night for letterman, didn't check Tue or wed night).

It also might be that the late night Master control operator hasn't become "familiar" enough with the HD switching. In the past, I know for WKRC-DT, switching to/from HD feed(including for all the commercial breaks) was done "manually" (more or less) ... And they generally have done a great job of it(but no, not allways). I don't know if that has changed recently.

OK, here is the latest. I called WCPO and asked for the Station Engineer and received his voicemail. Miracles never cease, he called back. He was extremely nice and explained that it is an old Motorola that is causing that problem and that he is aware of it (we all knew that). He explained that it needs a firmware and software upgrade that will cost about $7900. That is slated to be purchased and installed in the 4th quarter. He told me to feel free to call him back to get an update on that at any time. He thanked me for calling and said that without people calling he would not have known that there was an issue and that he has had only about 5 to 6 people call and complain about this "looking through a screen" issue. I asked about why this same device did not seem to have a problem before they moved. He said that before they moved, WCPO broadcasted in 1080i and that the router handled that much better than the current 720P. Currently they don't have a backup router for HDTV and that first quarter of next year he is slated to by an Tanber(sp) and use it as the primary and make the Motorola a backup. So that is the latest on the jaggies.

Thanks for passing that along ktarington. Some comments below, as well as a bit of a "summary" of some of the info I've gotten from correspondance(occuring between Nov 2004 and May 2005) with their engineers on this issue.

He was extremely nice and explained that it is an old Motorola that is causing that problem


That "old motrola" is the same encoder they've been using all along(since 1998), and it wasn't a problem before their studio move last year, including during 03-04 MNF HD football season.

They began sending 720p around Spring 2003 ---- well before their studio move in Summer 2004. They even changed the info to say this on their website around that time. I also brought this up in my conversations with their Director of Engineering -- in an email I received from him in November 2004, he said they begn sending in Spring 2003.


He explained that it needs a firmware and software upgrade that will cost about $7900. That is slated to be purchased and installed in the 4th quarter.

Their director of Engineering told me in early March 05 the encoder was scheduled for a firmware upgrade/calibration by motorola in April 2005, and asked me to get in contact with him in Late april and let him know if I saw an improvement.

I contacted him in Early May, and said I didn't see any improvement.

I also(for the second time, I first brought this up in March or so), told him about what dr1394 found - in detail, as I did the first time, including with direct links to Ron's posts here. All he would say about that is that their encoder was sending 1280x720p(of course I knew that).

Anyway, At that time(early may), I was told that the Encoder firmware/software upgrade was scheduled for August 05(no explanation was provided as to why this date changed from april), and I was also told that a all digital rack of equipment from ABC was to be installed in August. He (their DOE) also said at that time he would do everything within his power to have the signal "pristine" by the time 2005 football season started.

So, now, the encoder update is scheduled for Q4 2005 .....


He said that before they moved, WCPO broadcasted in 1080i and that the router handled that much better than the current 720P.


As mentioned farther above, WCPO-DT began sending 720p in Early 2003, before that, they were certianly upconverting to 1080i for broadcast. Why wasn't it a problem anyone(including me) noticed then between Spring 2003 up until after their studio move in Summer 2004, including during 2003~04 MNF HD season ?


He thanked me for calling and said that without people calling he would not have known that there was an issue and that he has had only about 5 to 6 people call and complain about this "looking through a screen" issue.


Yep -- call them folks -- let them know your seeing the problem !

Nevertheless, last November, I sent their DOE a spreadsheet containing a list of equipment submitted by over 20 folks on this thread seeing the issue(pretty much everyone who posted a report). He had thanked me for that info, so I assume he looked at it. Around that time, he had said he was thinking along the lines it was probably a decoder "chipset specific issue" possibly related to their encoder, and he said that he wasn't seeing it on his Sony XBR960 at home.

OF course, by March of 2005, I knew better than that given what Ron found in their datastream off someones Hard drive(a stream that hadn't been decoded) --- with a "reference" software based decoder ...

Again, what Ron(dr1394 - see his posts from earlier this year on this thread about this issue) found is that all the "unique" pixel data that is there is 1280x360 pixels during ABC HD, even THOUGH, yes, their encoder is sending 1280x720p, and yes, ABC is sending 1280x720 "unique" pixel data on their HD feed.

Folks, Ron was involved in the development of MPEG2/MPEG2 encoders, he knows his stuff .... Ron had also said that he thought it was likely that something in their signal chain for ABC HD, BEFORE the encoder was downsampling to 1280x360, and that that is probably what is causing the problem. I tend to agree, given what we've experienced with the issue, and it not being a problem before Summer 2004(including in my case with the same equipment on my end).

Is it a "new" piece of equipment they added after the studio move, or a change in the configuraton of equipment in the HD signal chain between the sat dish and the encoder that "occured" for some reason after studio move? I don't know, just speculating -- as for one thing, I don't have "intimate" details of their setup ...

COULD it actually be that an encoder "upgrade" will fix the problem? Maybe so, hard to say, and I guess we have to take WCPO engineers "word" on it that it will .... and I certianly HOPE their scheduled update from motorla(whenever it actually happens) FIXES the problem ... BUT, we'll probably never know for sure WHAT actually fixed the problem when it does get fixed ... But, personally I DOUBT it's the encoder that's the problem ...

Also, I now have a XBR960, and sure enough the problem is there on it as well ....

To throw another stick in the fire .... at one point, having heard something about a possible similair problem with motorola encoders, I discussed the possibililty with WCPO DOE concerning the possibility there may have been a macroblock size issue between the encoder+ most decoders (if so, still don't know why it was never an issue between spring 2003+summer 2004 however) ...

As I had Heard "through the vine" that the Moto encoders Use 16x16 pixel macroblocks, and that most consumer decoders used 8x8 pixel macroblocks ... however, I later found out that I don't believe this is the case, as Ron pointed out in another thread where we were discussing this issue that ALL MPEG2 uses 16x16 macroblocks ... I also doublechecked this in sections of ATSC white papers concerning MPEG2 (specifically document A54 "guide to ATSC standard), and in fact, as expected Ron is correct .... And yes, I relayed this info to WCPO DOE as well ..

I should add all of my discussions with their engineers have been pleasant as well .. I certianly have no issues with their engineers, personally or otherwise ...

In any event -- as far as the "jaggies" go .... I've pretty much given up on WCPO-DT and solely use WKEF-DT Dayton For ABC HD. That won't change any here until they get it fixed, simple as that. It is after all their business they are running, not mine. One of the big reasons I contacted them about this in the first place was only to try to help THEM out. Sooner or later I expect they'll get it fixed, as I think(hope anyway) it will become "necessary" for them to fix it. Perhaps it will take their GM buying a HD set and noticing that the analog looks better during MNF HD, or one of their clients complains ....

He said that before they moved, WCPO broadcasted in 1080i and that the router handled that much better than the current 720P.

That is of course true ... They did broadcast in 1080i before they moved ... I guess He just failed to mention part about broadcasting in 720p before they moved as well ... between april 2003 and late summer 2004 ;) ... LOL ....

That IS the first time however I've heard anything about the router perhaps being an issue involved .....

so maybe by 2007 they will fix it :) ... oh well... I hillbilly engineered the rat shack u75 antenna tonight and low and behold I get a decent signal :) funny thing is the antenna is sitting on the ground outside - it was just me and my daughter at home tonight so she wasnt much help :) .. but needless to say, the main dayton stations 2,7,22,45 all get at least a "good" on the signal strength - cant get wb yet but heck I still need to get a buddy over here so I know it will work.. here is something interesting - when I split the signal the strength cut in half (I run a splitter - 1 to the hughes htl-hd and 1 to the dvico5) - when the sensar signal gets split.. it is fine.. weird - ok, now my question - will the Channel Master CM 4221A 4-Bay Bowtie UHF Antenna - be better or worse..ie.. if the ratshack 75 works well, would theory hold true that the CM would be even bette - because I like the flat design and have a better spot to mount it...

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=3&CAT=&PROD=SCM4221A

thanks for the advice all!

jim (who can now watch jaggie free tv!!!) :) :) :)

Jim, my VU-75 is mounted on top of a 10 foot pole and tri-pod on top of my house. I get excellent reception from Middletown.

wow.. dd5.1 makes it so much better - cbs out of dayton is 5.1 - nbc and abc have hurricane shows on

oh well... I hillbilly engineered the rat shack u75 antenna tonight and low and behold I get a decent signal :) funny thing is the antenna is sitting on the ground outside - it was just me and my daughter at home tonight so she wasnt much help :) .. but needless to say, the main dayton stations 2,7,22,45 all get at least a "good" on the signal strength - cant get wb yet but heck I still need to get a buddy over here so I know it will work.. here is something interesting - when I split the signal the strength cut in half (I run a splitter - 1 to the hughes htl-hd and 1 to the dvico5) - when the sensar signal gets split.. it is fine.. weird -
........

thanks for the advice all!

jim (who can now watch jaggie free tv!!!) :) :) :)

Jim, Sound good! Hopefully you won't have much trouble pulling in WB HD and PBS HD Dayton as well.

Adding a 2 way splitter decreases signal by about 3db. 3db IS 1/2 signal of what you WERE getting before you added the splitter. Simarly, a station that 1/2's it's power also is about a 3db reduction. However, it's likely just a "happenstance" that your "signal meter" is showing you this, as 3db isn't really much in the overall "scheme" of things(unless you are in a true fringe area) ...(1/2 sounds like a lot, but db scale is logarhythmic) ... You'll likely see something a bit "different" when you get antenna on roof ....

Also, a preamp/amp can "make up" for splitting the signal/losses from the feedline run. If you're loosing too much via splitting the signal/feedline losses/etc, I'd get a good, medium gain mast mount preamp(you could use a distribution/line amp, but I think it's better in most cases to get the amp as close to the antenna as possible, which can have other "benefits" as well(it CAN lower overall Noise figure, and I think it can improve VSWR(voltage standing wave ratio). - A power supply comes with the preamp which you put indoors -- It sends power to the preamp over the coax(like your STB does to your LNB) ....

Solid signal carries a couple of good mast mount CM preamps(such as CM7777), and, if you want to go brick+mortar -- Lowe's I think Has a somewhat decent one with 300ohm input(in this case you'd need to run a short piece of twinlead from the antenna to the amp mounted on mast and use the preamps internal 300 ohm~75ohm conversion instead of that "matching transformer" you bought). Probably a good idea to STAY AWAY from Radio shack preamp, as they are usually very Noisy, and easily overload ...

The problem with preamps can sometimes be that you can get too much signal which can overload the amp and cause problems ... This shouldn't be the case for you though, at something over 25 miles from Dayton, and especially with a "UHF only" setup for Dayton.


ok, now my question - will the Channel Master CM 4221A 4-Bay Bowtie UHF Antenna - be better or worse..ie.. if the ratshack 75 works well, would theory hold true that the CM would be even bette - because I like the flat design and have a better spot to mount it...


That's an easy one ... Yes, I think it's safe to say CM4221A has better performance than U-75R, especially on upper UHF channels .... but YMMV ... sometimes a UHF Yagi/corner reflector design(such as U-75R) can perform better than a CM4221, but I'd say given what you are getting with it sitting on ground, especially for the upper UHF Dayton stations, the CM4221 would be a better choice for you ... (cheaper too -- well, I'd guess it'll end up about the same with the shipping costs --- better get it before Gas is $10 a gallon ;) ....

BTW ... I've ordered a couple of things via Solid Signal via standard UPS ground ... again YMMV ... but MAN did those orders get here FAST ... I was expecting 3 days .. but, A winegard PR-5030 VHF antenna I ordered from them was on my porch the next MORNING ... It was shipped from a Winegard Distributor in Columbus, pretty much the same thing happened with a CM4228 I purchased from them, which was shipped from a place in either central KY or TN ...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dusterscott/Jim --=-

Keep in mind, VU-75XR is a small VHF/UHF combo antenna, Radio shack's smallest I believe. U-75R is a UHF only antenna which should have better UHF performance that the VU-75's UHF section ....

All Dayton digital stations transmit on UHF - specifically, UHF channels 18(26.1), 30(45.1), 41(7.1), 50(2.x), 51(22.1) and 58(16.x). These stations remap to virtual channels(in parentheses above) that "correspond" to the their analog counterparts. The "frequency assignment" column at antennaweb also tells you the actual channels the digital stations transmit on. FCC TV query shows this info as well.

If I could pick up the ABC from Dayton, I would and just bypass this whole WCPO thing, but I can't get a signal where I'm located. I just have to pray that the Station Engineer isn't blowing smoke up my a$$ and actually fixes it in the 4th quarter. I want to watch the BCS game in true HD this year!!! We might actually have a better chance of getting it fixed when DirecTV get local HD and realizes the signal that they get is horrible.

If I could pick up the ABC from Dayton, I would and just bypass this whole WCPO thing, but I can't get a signal where I'm located. I just have to pray that the Station Engineer isn't blowing smoke up my a$$ and actually fixes it in the 4th quarter. I want to watch the BCS game in true HD this year!!! We might actually have a better chance of getting it fixed when DirecTV get local HD and realizes the signal that they get is horrible.

What sort of antenna setup are you using? YMMV(and outdoor would certianly be a good bet), but I know Doc was getting ABC HD Dayton OTA from florence via a big UHF Yagi in his attic w/preamp ... He was in a high spot though, and Florence should defintely be in Fringe area for them, where terrain issues could easily make it a non-possibility ....


I just have to pray that the Station Engineer isn't blowing smoke up my a$$ and actually fixes it in the 4th quarter. I want to watch the BCS game in true HD this year!!!


I know what you're saying ...

I also didn't mean to suggest I just "wrote off" WCPO-DT "easily", because it's allways good to have a "backup", as all stations have had their "problems" at one time or another/etc ....

Even though I DO (and allways have) picked up the Dayton stations just fine here ... I put a LOT of effort into my correspondance with them --- .... I just didn't see much point in continuing to pester them, and to be honest, I became quite frustrated with it .... ... I will send them a report and a thank you note when they DO get it fixed, however ...

I have noticed on while watching ESPN in HD, when the go to studio sets, say for example, College GameDay, there is a slight delay in audio.
Kind of like watchign those old kung fu movies.
You see their lips moving, but the audio is a tad bit behind.
Enough to bother you.
What is the cause of that...something on my end, or DTV's end?

In addition, DTV is upgrading their HD lineup with a new dish soon?
So will customers have to fit part of the bill to receive the upgrade?

DiamondD --

First off on this forum a few common abbreviations we generally use are as such :

DTV does NOT mean DirecTV here. When we say "DTV" we mean Digital Television. Usually reffering to Over the air(terrestrial), Digital Television. DTV can be HD, but can use other formats as well(such as SD/ datacasting/etc).

OTA = Over the air (also reffering to over the air Television, usually over the air DTV).

DirecTV = D*

Dish Network = E* (For Echostar, the company that owns Dish network)

---------------

If they're having a sync issue on their end, or if others with your model of D* STB are getting it as well, you can probably find posts/threads about it in D* related threads in either programming or hardware areas.

Also, plenty of threads/info on D*'s future HD plans in HD programming and hardware areas at AVSforum ....

This thread is where folks post mostly post info concerning Local HDTV info+reception in Cincinnati -- Concerning OTA HD, but also local cable issues/etc, or anything HD wise of local interest - future D* carriage of local HD stations of interest for example would be an on topic subject ...

Granted, we venture into other areas as well, but the main beneifit of having the form organized with different areas and threads for "specific" subject is so you might get better(or more) responses to your D* questions from other folks rather than say, just those in Cincinnati ...

Back to the sync issue .... other than the above without more "info" or reports from others It's hard to say whether it's an "issue" on their end or your end in any given case, and I dunno about D*/Sat HD - but it sometimes happens for me with OTA DTV that - in some cases you *may* be able to sometimes switch to another channel and then back and it will "sync up" ....

I live in a condo off of Mt. Zion in the third floor. I have my antenna in the attic, but the level of the third floor ends up being about as high Mt. Zion road. It looks as though we are not in the top 35 Markets for DirecTV.

http://www.*************.us/showthread.php?t=84250 Replace the **** with "satellite guys" with no space

Maybe we can just pray that the old Motorola goes up in smoke and they have to buy a new one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ABC Dayton is the only major station in Dayton that I can't seem to get as well. I'm using my old Voom receiver and can't get it to lock on the station.

Jeff - thanks for the advice.. I plan on doing some tweaking as well as a "Temporary" mount in the morning.. if the rat shack works well then I may keep it - provided the wife approves the location :)

jim


Jim, Sound good! Hopefully you won't have much trouble pulling in WB HD and PBS HD Dayton as well.

Adding a 2 way splitter decreases signal by about 3db. 3db IS 1/2 signal of what you WERE getting before you added the splitter. Simarly, a station that 1/2's it's power also is about a 3db reduction. However, it's likely just a "happenstance" that your "signal meter" is showing you this, as 3db isn't really much in the overall "scheme" of things(unless you are in a true fringe area) ...(1/2 sounds like a lot, but db scale is logarhythmic) ... You'll likely see something a bit "different" when you get antenna on roof ....

Also, a preamp/amp can "make up" for splitting the signal/losses from the feedline run. If you're loosing too much via splitting the signal/feedline losses/etc, I'd get a good, medium gain mast mount preamp(you could use a distribution/line amp, but I think it's better in most cases to get the amp as close to the antenna as possible, which can have other "benefits" as well(it CAN lower overall Noise figure, and I think it can improve VSWR(voltage standing wave ratio). - A power supply comes with the preamp which you put indoors -- It sends power to the preamp over the coax(like your STB does to your LNB) ....

Solid signal carries a couple of good mast mount CM preamps(such as CM7777), and, if you want to go brick+mortar -- Lowe's I think Has a somewhat decent one with 300ohm input(in this case you'd need to run a short piece of twinlead from the antenna to the amp mounted on mast and use the preamps internal 300 ohm~75ohm conversion instead of that "matching transformer" you bought). Probably a good idea to STAY AWAY from Radio shack preamp, as they are usually very Noisy, and easily overload ...

The problem with preamps can sometimes be that you can get too much signal which can overload the amp and cause problems ... This shouldn't be the case for you though, at something over 25 miles from Dayton, and especially with a "UHF only" setup for Dayton.



That's an easy one ... Yes, I think it's safe to say CM4221A has better performance than U-75R, especially on upper UHF channels .... but YMMV ... sometimes a UHF Yagi/corner reflector design(such as U-75R) can perform better than a CM4221, but I'd say given what you are getting with it sitting on ground, especially for the upper UHF Dayton stations, the CM4221 would be a better choice for you ... (cheaper too -- well, I'd guess it'll end up about the same with the shipping costs --- better get it before Gas is $10 a gallon ;) ....

BTW ... I've ordered a couple of things via Solid Signal via standard UPS ground ... again YMMV ... but MAN did those orders get here FAST ... I was expecting 3 days .. but, A winegard PR-5030 VHF antenna I ordered from them was on my porch the next MORNING ... It was shipped from a Winegard Distributor in Columbus, pretty much the same thing happened with a CM4228 I purchased from them, which was shipped from a place in either central KY or TN ...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dusterscott/Jim --=-

Keep in mind, VU-75XR is a small VHF/UHF combo antenna, Radio shack's smallest I believe. U-75R is a UHF only antenna which should have better UHF performance that the VU-75's UHF section ....

All Dayton digital stations transmit on UHF - specifically, UHF channels 18(26.1), 30(45.1), 41(7.1), 50(2.x), 51(22.1) and 58(16.x). These stations remap to virtual channels(in parentheses above) that "correspond" to the their analog counterparts. The "frequency assignment" column at antennaweb also tells you the actual channels the digital stations transmit on. FCC TV query shows this info as well.

one more question.. can I paint the antenna? my neighbor and I were looking at it - and we both agree that I will look like a real billy with the silver sucker hanging off the back of the house :)


jim

one more question.. can I paint the antenna?


I wouldn't. There was a long thread on this way back, the general consensus was that it wasn't a good idea. Some folks have painted their antennas and seem to get good results, however.


I will look like a real billy with the silver sucker hanging off the back of the house :)


About the nicest things I can say about that are :

#1)Then I suppose you are in good company, as the mountain people I know are among the finest folks I've ever met.

#2). I have a 40 foot tower(a couple of them actually, one with Ham antennas) with a few antennas on it, and people walk right under it and don't even see it. When they see my OTA TV pic(even Analog OTA) they say "WOW! Who is your cable company? In a number of cases, I've had to take them outside and point OUT the antenna, and sometimes they STILL don't believe it's coming from a antenna ...

#3) If that's a problem for you, invite your neighbors over and show them the difference between WCPO-DT jaggies and WKEF-DT during MNF HD, or, just take the antenna down and watch the jaggies from WCPO-DT as well as further limiting your OTA options.

Update: #4) - The RS U75R, or CM4221 are small antennas as UHF antennas go. If you don't have a problem with a DBS dish or the outdoor coathanger sensar, I don't see why either of those would be a problem.

The RS VU-75XR is a small VHF/UHF combo, it is larger than either of those UHF antennas because of it's VHF section, but VU75XR's UHF section does not offer the performance on UHF that either the U75R, or CM4221 offers.

Again, You don't Need VHF reception capabilities for Dayton digitals, they ALL transmit on UHF, and have also chosen to transmit on UHF after analog shut off as well. The only reason you'd need VHF for Dayton antenna is for good current reception of analogs 2 and 7.

The only reason you need VHF for Cincinnati digital reception is for WCPO-DT 10 Currently, and for WKRC-DT AFTER they move their digital station to 12 after analog shut off. In strong signal areas, in many cases, outdoor UHF antennas may do the trick for hi-VHF(ch 7-13) reception as well. The CM4228 is the only UHF antenna I know of however that actually provides a bit of "performance" on Hi-VHF 7-13.

You actually don't even need the "larger" portions of most VHF/UHF combos for reception of Hi-band VHF channels 7-13(174~216MHZ). The Longest elements on VHF/UHF combos or broadband VHF(which cover ch 2-13+FM) TV antennas are for reception of lo-band VHF channels 2-6(54~88MHZ), and in some cases FM(88~108MHZ). Although they DO make relatively small "seperate" antennas for VHF-Hi(ch 7-13) reception, they unfortunetly do not make combo Hi-VHF/UHF antennas as of yet(or at least I don't know of any). I'm expecting to see them however after analog shut off, especially if the current situation stands with digital stations avoiding lo-VHF like the plague with their channel election choices because of Impulse noise and other RFI issues.

A well designed antenna for VHF-Hi(ch 7~13) requires elements only about 2' long from end to end - compare to Low VHF ch 2, which requires elements be about 9 feet long to provide any real gain/directivity.

For analog Cincinnati reception(if desired or required) however, currently you'd probably want both antenna that covers both lo-VHF and hi-VHF(again, as all VHF/UHF combos do) for Cincinnati analogs 5,9 and 12.

This is Radio shack U-75R UHF antenna(cat #15-2160 - current price $24.99) - Dimensions are about 3.5FT long by about 1.5foot wide(at widest) everything on the antenna is for UHF, therefore obviously its going to provide better UHF performance than VU-75XR - Note - They USED to call this U-75R, now all I see on their website for it model # wise is the Cat#) :

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D2160

This is Radio Shack VU-75XR VHF/UHF combo antenna (cat # 15-2151 - Current price $39.99) -- Dimesions are about 4' long by 9' wide - as you can see, not much to it's UHF section :

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D2151

let me clarify billy - my defination is someone that does not mow their lawn, house looks like crap - general maintainace issues (junk cars and the like) -

anyway.. here is an update, I was able to tweak the antenna perfectly outside, everything was 100% for dayton - so I decided to take it in the attic - with mixed results - earlier today I was at about 75% (I am using the % just for comparison purposes) in the attic and it was stable.. but as the day has gone on the dayton stations have gotten weaker and now the signal is bouncing.. any thoughts on that? I have a feeling its just some tweaking issues as I have it jammed between some rafters :) I combined the sensar and rat shack antenna signals by reversing my splitter.. low and behold it is fine!!! the cincinnati stations are strong and the dayton stations show the same behavior as they did before combining

jeff.. in your opinion will the Channel Master CM 4221A 4-Bay Bowtie UHF Antenna do better in the attic?? I ask that because it will be eaiser to mount that bad boy (either outside or inside)

thanks

jim

let me clarify billy - my defination is someone that does not mow their lawn, house looks like crap - general maintainace issues (junk cars and the like) -


I know what you meant.

The point is, the idea that putting a properly installed antenna on your roof is going to turn your property into a junkyard is ridiculous, and is just the sort of nonsense I'd expect from those HOA folks who seem to be more concerned about issues involving how high their noses ride in the air rather than any actual health, safety, or "neighborhood improvement" issues.

In any event, If you want the most "asthetically pleasing" antenna that will still provide good performance, for Dayton, unless you want analog reception of channels 2+7, there is NO reason to use a larger antenna with VHF capabilities and poorer UHF performance when all you NEED is a small UHF antenna for ALL the Dayton digital stations(such as the RS UHF only antenna mentioned above), as they ALL transmit on UHF and have chosen to remain on UHF after analog shut off ....



earlier today I was at about 75% (I am using the % just for comparison purposes) in the attic and it was stable.. but as the day has gone on the dayton stations have gotten weaker and now the signal is bouncing.. any thoughts on that?


Putting the antenna indoors attenuates signals(general range of thumb) by about 20db. That is a LOT. Putting antenna inside also usually increases multipath difficulties. Attics especially are multipath nightmares.


I combined the sensar and rat shack antenna signals by reversing my splitter.. low and behold it is fine!!! the cincinnati stations are strong and the dayton stations show the same behavior as they did before combining


As I believe I said in an earlier post -- It's great if you get lucky and it works, however - don't be surprised that when the wind picks up or other changes in dynamic multipath conditions/etc. cause you to experience "bouncing signal meter" and dropouts due to the antennas being combined in this manner and being out of phase. You'll really just have to try it for a long period of time and see if it is dropout free, if it isn't(which is most likely), you'll need to run the 2nd feedline+use A/B switch.



jeff.. in your opinion will the Channel Master CM 4221A 4-Bay Bowtie UHF Antenna do better in the attic?? I ask that because it will be eaiser to mount that bad boy (either outside or inside)


I'm not sure which RS antenna you have at this point, either the VU-75XR VHF/UHF antenna or the RS U-75R UHF only antenna. See my last post to find out which one you have. EITHER the U-75R or the CM4221A are better performing antennas on UHF than the VU-75XR - That is true for the attic or outdoors.

BUT - since we are dealing with many factors concerning OTA reception(especially when you stick the antenna indoors), It's difficult to predict which antenna would work "best" in any given circumstance, but the CM4221A has better performance, specifically of importance on Upper UHF channels which is where 3 of the Dayton Digitals transmit.

I'd probably get the CM4221A for Dayton digitals and put it outdoors, and perhaps replace your Sensar with the VU-75XR if you need more reliable reception(such as all those "breakups" you often report getting from WCPO-DT when storms are in the area) of the 8 Cincinnati/N KY digital/HD stations.

Here's the update on my antenna install on the roof.

First off, I went with the installer that could install yesterday, a day I had off. I felt the more knowledgable installer was John Wendel from Satellite Antenna Systems, but he couldn't install for another week.

Anyway, my appt. was from Noon - 2p.m. yesterday. The installer showed up 4:30 p.m. Friday. The installer frogged around for an hour before beginning. He wasn't even sure what antenna he had been sent out to install. When he went into my attic, he had to use my ladder, my flashlight, and then once up there, asked if I had a pair of wire cutters handy. At 6:45 p.m he informs me that he is done for the night and will have to come back next week to finish up the install. When I explained that I took the day off for the install, and that I am not home weekdays, he said he would come back Saturday to finish. It's 6:30 p.m. Saturday, no word.

So, I have an antenna on the roof, and a rotor not hooked up. Oh, btw he tells me the receiver for the rotor will have to be installed in the basement because it would take him too long to run wires to the TV area, and I'll have to buy a remote extender to make the wireless remote work to move the rotor.

Then the installer tells me he doesn't have any batteries to work his walkie talkies, so I'll have to use my cell phone to communicate with him while he aligns the antenna up manually, unless I have batteries for him.

Thanks for listening to my grumble about my experience. Looks like I picked the wrong installer. I'll report back whenever my install gets completed.

So, I have an antenna on the roof, and a rotor not hooked up. Oh, btw he tells me the receiver for the rotor will have to be installed in the basement because it would take him too long to run wires to the TV area, and I'll have to buy a remote extender to make the wireless remote work to move the rotor.


Ridiculous. I'm afraid the "deal" with the rotor controller going in basement especially would not be acceptable for me. A good OTA installer should have come out, performed a site test(taking signal measurements/etc), do a consultation with you to find out what you need, then recommend an antenna(preamp/etc), and tell you what any extra cost would be involved for "extra time" issues such as running the rotor control wire to where you will be using it so the remote will work.
Furthermore, given what you were "looking for", they should also have done their best to ensure you are getting good reception and are "happy".


Then the installer tells me he doesn't have any batteries to work his walkie talkies, so I'll have to use my cell phone to communicate with him while he aligns the antenna up manually, unless I have batteries for him.


Doesn't sound like he even has proper "professional antenna installer" equipment, such as signal meter/spectrum analyzer. While I'm not surprised he doesn't have a spectrum analyzer (a 4 figure item), still .....


Thanks for listening to my grumble about my experience. Looks like I picked the wrong installer. I'll report back whenever my install gets completed.

No problem, Grumble away+I hope they get it straightened out. I'd probably call them and insist they run the rotor controller wire to where you need it, and do things "right" when they come back out - although, there may be extra cost involved. The rotor controller isn't going to do you any good in the basement, and I wouldn't think "remote extenders" would be the option I would choose if there is a way to run the wire to the controller in the TV area.

Anyway, Is the antenna hooked up and aimed properly enough for Cincinnati reception currently ?

Also - Can you tell if he properly ground the mast+outer shield of coax, and bond those grounds to the main A/C service ground as is required by NEC ? I'd wonder if the outdoor connections are properly waterproofed as well ...

Plus I get WSTR via D* and Insight (free lifeline) so I've just not been compelled to venture to the roof again :)


Sorry I missed asking about this earlier ...

A question ... Do you mean WSTR analog via Insight, or WSTR-DT digital/WB HD?

If it's WB HD, That's the first time anyone here has reported it being carried by any local cableco's -- Is TW Cincinnati carrying it(WB HD) now as well ?

Thanks,

Hill folk call them thar fellas hilljacks.

'sides whens the last time yo been to the hills? Tennas don do us nary a bit o good, we'uns all have satty-light dishes. :D


let me clarify billy - my defination is someone that does not
mow their lawn, house looks like crap - general maintainace issues (junk cars and the like) -

I only get WSTR in SD via D* and Insight. To the best of my knowledge Insight does not carry WSTR in HD. If you are curious, this is Insight's lineup (http://www.insight-com.com/print-lineup.asp?cl=Boone/Kenton/Campbell) for N KY.

I probably should put a little effort into getting it to work. I just assumed it wasn't possible until just recently.


As an aside I am a little surprised ABC's feature game tonight isn't in HD.

peace . . .


Sorry I missed asking about this earlier ...

A question ... Do you mean WSTR analog via Insight, or WSTR-DT digital/WB HD?

If it's WB HD, That's the first time anyone here has reported it being carried by any local cableco's -- Is TW Cincinnati carrying it(WB HD) now as well ?

Thanks,

I only get WSTR in SD via D* and Insight.


Thanks - I was just wondering as I know Sinclair(owns WSTR) and most cableco's have been at an "impass" when it comes to negotiating for cable carriage rights for HD from Sinclair stations. Although, TW Dayton/WOH does carry Sinclair owned Dayton HD locals(ABC+FOX) - the only case I know of in which TW carries HD from sinclair stations. And, I think it's the only Cincinnati HD station TW Cincy or Insight doesn't carry.


I probably should put a little effort into getting it to work. I just assumed it wasn't possible until just recently.


Yeah, its probably worth a little effort if you watch any WB programming, which WSTR-DT began providing in HD+DD 5.1 Nov 2004. They were on the air for almost 2 years prior to that as SD only. It still might be awfully difficult in their antenna pattern's biggest nulls(Generally SE+E of their tower), however. But, they should be more receivable when they increase power - which should hopefully be by 7/06.

Pretty much all their scripted shows are HD, and some movies including LOTR trilogy starting last November with FOTR airing HD - and The Two towers should be HD this Nov from them, and the last one in Nov 2006 (that's from a press release from a year ago though) Unfortunetly though, FOTR wasn't aired 2.35:1 OAR last year and was instead 1.85:1 - "sort of open matte" though from what I recall.

Smallville looks particularly good in HD from them, I occasionally watch "Everwood" HD as well.

Smallville could do it. Initially I wasn't interested because I thought sounded like Lois and Clark but gave it a try via DVD (netflix is really great for that) and quite liked it. So far I am only into the middle of season 3 and I have season 4 in SD that my HTPC dutifully recorded all last season. With football season started there is no chance I'll get caught up before Sept 29th (the season 4 premier). So if I am going to stick with this show AND watch it HD I am going to have to 1) get up the roof and align my antenna and 2) get around to adding more disk space to my hd Tivo. Now that SageTV supports HD cards that actually might be the way to go but of course I still have to line up the antenna and spend money.

Stupid hobbies. I wonder which which has the greater potential for failure - teaching my gf to read and cycle through the antenna signal level indicators on the HR10-250 or sending her up on the roof.

peace . . .




Yeah, its probably worth a little effort if you watch any WB programming, which WSTR-DT began providing in HD+DD 5.1 Nov 2004. They were on the air for almost 2 years prior to that as SD only. It still might be awfully difficult in their antenna pattern's biggest nulls(Generally SE+E of their tower), however. But, they should be more receivable when they increase power - which should hopefully be by 7/06.

Pretty much all their scripted shows are HD, and some movies including LOTR trilogy starting last November with FOTR airing HD - and The Two towers should be HD this Nov from them, and the last one in Nov 2006 (that's from a press release from a year ago though) Unfortunetly though, FOTR wasn't aired 2.35:1 OAR last year and was instead 1.85:1 - "sort of open matte" though from what I recall.

Smallville looks particularly good in HD from them, I occasionally watch "Everwood" HD as well.

well.. I have decided to mount the rat shack u75r outside and put the sensar on the other side of the house :) - more later if I dont kill my self on a 30 foot ladder this afternoon :) The attic thing is just not working out

jim

more later if I dont kill my self on a 30 foot ladder this afternoon :)
jim

Don't do that, then you really WOULD seem like a hillbilly, and it would probably even make it to the evening local news ;) .....

Just kidding! I'm glad to be a hillbilly myself .... and yes, I mow my yard, take care of the house and don't have a junkyard, or a sat dish on front of my house --- Just on the side ....

Watch those utility lines .... seriously, safety is #1, and if you are NOT 100% sure you're safe, go to a pro installer .......

Jeff,
Yes, I am watching CBS, US Open tennis in HD, and it looks pretty good. No dropped signals.

In regards to running a cable to the TV area, it will be very difficult because the basement ceiling where wires would need to be run is drywall. I do have a question though regarding existing speaker wires. When the house was built speaker wire & speaker controller wire was run to several locations throughout the house, kitchen, bedroom, dining room, basement, etc. Many of those wires are unused because I didn't install speakers at all the locations. I have shoved many of those wires which are behind the TV into the wall behind the face plate. Here's the info from the two type of wires;

- Russound four strand (red, green, black, white) 16 AWG Type BCC c(UL) 60C FTA
- Russound two strand speaker wire (red, black) E31289 (UL) CL3 16 AWG 75C Type PCC

Can either of these wires be used for the rotator connection? The installer left the six page Owner's Manual of the Choice Select Model: CHO5001 rotator shows three strand wire being connected to terminals on the back of the indoor control unit. The installer did not leave the wire here for me to look at.

If the four strand wire can be connected to the rotator's three strand wire, then I have a wire available. I would just need to pull one of those wires out of box at the unused speaker location from the basement and figure out which one it is of the many shoved behind the face plate by the TV.

The installer mentioned something about being able to use a couple strands from the telephone jack as I have Cat 5 wire at the phone jacks. But, since the Cat 5 wires run all the way at the other end of the house, he didn't want to use that. My question is regarding the Cat 5 wire, are you able to carefully slice the cover of the Cat 5 and slice into the unused wires? I ask this because I can locate the Cat 5 wire running from the TV area to a place in the basement, which is near the end of the house that the rotator is located.

I am trying to be prepared for whenever the installer comes back, by being able to offer an option for connecting the rotator wires that allows for the rotator receiver to be located at the TV viewing area.

Thanks for your help.

Can either of these wires be used for the rotator connection?
Thanks for your help.

I can't think of any reason why you couldn't use them, the current that goes from the controller to the rotor to control it are low voltage, and 3 of your speaker wires should be fine, and is even thicker guage than 3 wire rotor control cable CM has, which uses 3 22AWG wires according to this :

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?CAT=&PROD=SCM9554-75

I can't find any specific info on the model of rotor you mentioned, but it shouldn't matter.

to "splice" the wires together in basement, I would probably solder the connections(end of the wires from rotor+speaker wire) together for the best connection, and of course insulate the connections for each wire so they can't contact each other(such as wrapping each connection up "sufficently" with electical tape). Just make sure you do it so you know which "wire" is supposed to connect to which terminal on the rotor controller.


My question is regarding the Cat 5 wire, are you able to carefully slice the cover of the Cat 5 and slice into the unused wires?


I've never had a reason to try that so I don't know --- and I probably wouldn't do that, however even if it is "possible", as I wouldn't count on not accidently slicing(or stretching "too far") into one of the wires used for the phone even if I was using a wire stripper to remove the outer shielding(covering that holds all the wires together in a Cat 5 cable) ...

Otherwise, I think They'd be smaller gauge than the cable CM makes for it, and speaker wires seem "better", but Seems like the wires in the cat5 cable would work fine as well.

If you could work from the "end" of the cat5 cable(the wires not used for phone) or cut it through it entirely where you need "access"(if you are sure you aren't/won't be using a phone jack it's running to for instance), that would be how I would "access" the wires.

So, from what you described, the speaker wires seem like they'd be a better option.

Okay Jeff,

I think I am heading down the road of identifying which speaker wire (the one with the four wires) feeds into the empty junction box in the basement which was wired for future speakers.

As far as your other questions about installation, sealing, etc., I have no idea, but would think it didn't happen. I will print out your questions and talk to the installer about them. Again, I have no idea when the install will be completed, but since the bill is at $550 already for time & materials, I am guessing they will want to finish the job.

Thanks again for your suggestions. I still think in the end, moving an antenna from the attic to the roof will be beneficial.

Kathy

its done! and I am still alive - 2,7,45 are solid - 90% - but for some reason wkef (22) is only around 75% - are they lower power? I cant get the miamisburg pbs station nor can I get wb out of dayton.. but thats ok, I get 4 pbs and wstr 64. Combining works for the most part, but the signal sometimes gets crushed.. so it doesnt really work :)

I did do a cool thing, I attached the sensar on top of the mast, so they are both on the same mast with no loss in signal for either one! now I just need to figure out how I want to do the a/b switch - thanks for the advice all!


hillbilly jim- who will watch his first jaggie free abc HD show tonight :) ;)

Since when has the WEBN fireworks not been broadcast in HD? That was the very first HD show I ever saw, approx. 4-5 years ago.

but for some reason wkef (22) is only around 75% - are they lower power?


WKEF 22 analog transmits 2240KW ERP (analog peak power)
WKEF-DT 51(remaps to 22.1 via PSIP) transmits 138KW ERP (digital average power), with a non-directional antenna pattern.

In comparison to WKEF-DT, WDTN-DT 50(remaps to 2.x) Dayton transmits 1000KW ERP(about 7~8db more power than WKEF-DT). WPTD-DT 58 (PBS/ThinkTV Dayton - remaps to 16.x) transmits 250KW ERP. WBDT-18(WB HD Dayton - remaps to 26.1) transmits 35KW ERP.

All 6 Dayton digitals(and 7 Dayton analogs - one is a LP WRCX-LP 40) transmit with non-directional antenna pattern, transmitting from the same antenna farm just SW of Downtown Dayton. You can see all the towers from 75, If you are heading North, they are on a hill a few miles North of 725 miamisburg exit, and just before U.S. 35 exit. There is a low power (religious/infomericals) analog on 55 transmitting from a different location near bellbrook, and a TBN low power analog translator on 47 in Springfield.

Unless there is a terrain obstruction, I'd think you should really be getting better results, including reception of Dayton WB+Dayton PBS/ThinkTV.

Other than terrain issue attenuating signals too much, I expect some of the following issues may be involved :

The antenna combining if you are getting those results with them still combined onto the same feedline : When you go to your seperate feedlines and A/B switch, you may be surprised to see the signal meter "jump up" for Dayton PBS, WB and up a bit for WKEF-DT. It's possible The signal meter on your box can even show "0" if there is a very strong signal present, but one that is decodable due to extreme multipath conditions. Although I expect what may really be happening is that you can't "see" any indication of signal from those stations, (even though there is one there on the actual channel of transmission, but perhaps multipath laden and making your meter "bounce around" all over the place) on the PSIP remapped channels until your receiver can actually get a signal lock from those stations you are missing, and the receiver can then decode the PSIP stream from the station -- which of course can only happen on the actual channel the station is transmitting its signal on, and only if the signal is near or at the threshold signal "quality"(about 16db SNR specifically, which not only involves signal strength but other issues, such as any multipath echos which may be dropping you below that "threshold" if your receiver can't correct for them) required to achieve reception.

Too much loss of signal in your feedline run. A mast mount preamp can recover these feedline losses. Also, keep in mind, the higher the frequency(channel of actual transmission), the more the signal loss in coax.

The "balun"(matching transformer you had to buy) may be causing more loss at some frequencies, and not others.

The antenna's "performance"(gain mainly) on upper UHF channels perhaps in the case of PBS Dayton(WPTD-DT 58) especially. The CM4221 would likely do better if this is a factor involved.

--------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------


Since when has the WEBN fireworks not been broadcast in HD? That was the very first HD show I ever saw, approx. 4-5 years ago.


Unfortunately, the last WEBN fireworks in HD from WKRC-DT was 2003.

For the newer folks who don't know .... HD really made the Rozzi's finest hour of the year look good on TV ....

Not that TV(even the HD variety) is THE place to watch a fireworks show, but, I found it very acceptable In HD after having enjoyed around 15 or so of the WEBN fireworks shows "live" over the past 25 years or so ...

Unfortunately, the last WEBN fireworks in HD from WKRC-DT was 2003.

For the newer folks who don't know .... HD really made the Rozzi's finest hour of the year look good on TV ....

Not that TV(even the HD variety) is THE place to watch a fireworks show, but, I found it very acceptable In HD after having enjoyed around 15 or so of the WEBN fireworks shows "live" over the past 25 years or so ...

What a complete and total letdown that they can't even do the biggest event of the year in Cincinnati in HD.

I had Google'd previously in the week and seen references to fireworks-in-HD (2000) I just figured, "hey awesome, that was 5 years ago so it's in HD in 2005 for sure". How stupid of me not to find this forum earlier and find out I was wrong.

I find it disappointing how little HD programming there currently is.

-jd

well.. wkef blew away wcpo - jaggie free - very nice!! cant wait for the real test in football tomorrow night.. why they are having miami / florida this early.. who knows.. but it will look great.. just got done watching (flipping) along came a spider (OAR and dd5.1 !!) and despartite housewives..

jeff - I have uncombined the signals - still no luck with the dayon pbs.. funny thing is the analog version looks fantastic.. but I think I know part of the problem.. about 250-300 due north there is a massive line of tall (90-100') trees.. I have a feeling they are knocking down the signal a bit.. plus my antenna is only at 22' - but needless to say - along came a spider and desparite housewifes looked good and there were no signal drops - nor any glitches.. even 2.1 and nascar looked awesome - man does dolby digital 5.1 make a huge difference.. does wkef have dd5.1?? the onkyo only locked on at dolby digital 2.1.

Makes sense that wkef has a lower signal as it is not as powerfull..

now i just need to figure out if I want to get the remote a/b switch or flip it manually. question.. would one of those inline powered or unpowered amps help when I split the signal to run it to the htpc?

thanks

jim

well.. wkef blew away wcpo - jaggie free - very nice!! cant wait for the real test in football tomorrow night.. why they are having miami / florida this early.. who knows.. but it will look great..


Careful or you'll Jinx it! ;)


but I think I know part of the problem.. about 250-300 due north there is a massive line of tall (90-100') trees.. I have a feeling they are knocking down the signal a bit..


Very possible, especially WPTD-DT 58 (PBS/ThinkTV Dayton) ... Signal attenuation from trees/leaves can also be a bit more of an issue on higher UHF channels than lower ...


does wkef have dd5.1??


No. DD 2.0 Only -- While I certianly enjoy DD 5.1, I find DD 2.0 with prologic II surround decoding to be acceptable, though.

Their Chief Engineer did tell me several months ago that they were working on DD 5.1, and at that time had expected to have it in a couple of weeks -- but, there has been none yet that I have seen, so I assume they ran into problems. I asked for a current expected ETA/update in a email I sent one of their engineers early last week but haven't heard anything back yet(I talked to him 2 weeks ago on another issue, and he did say they were VERY BUSY currently).


question.. would one of those inline powered or unpowered amps help when I split the signal to run it to the htpc?


It very well might(all amps are powered one way or another, however) -- however it would be better to use a low noise mast mount preamp - the closer the amp is to the antenna the better -- for several reasons which I mentioned earlier, one of the main ones being you won't be able to do anything about the feedline loss between the antenna and wherever you have the distribution amp ....

In any case I'd still probably put whatever amp you use I'd make sure it is as "low noise"(those RS amps especially can be quite noisy+easily overloaded) and as close antenna possible, even if the amp is inside ...

what preamp would you recomend? is 1 foot close enough?

thanks

jim

Jim,

Yes, 1 foot is plenty close, within 3~5 feet is a good idea. Make sure to use "drip loop" in the feedline from antenna to preamp input so water runs off instead of "into" the connection to preamp. Personally, I generally perfer to use a preamp with a 300 ohm input+75 Ohm output, using a short piece of 300 twinlead to connect antenna to preamp, then coax between preamp+TV/Devices. You can pretty much count on the 300ohm~75Ohm conversion via a PCB(printed circut board) in a quality preamp being "good" and not incurring any additional losses on such an such channel, whearas you can pretty much count on add'l losses occuring on certian frequencies(you won't know which ones) from Ferrite core baluns(matching transformer) like the one you bought from radio shack.

Lowes has CM3041DSB which looks to have good specs for your location as well as 300ohm input - You'll of course need a short piece of 300ohm twinlead, RS has it IF you don't have a piece lying around. I use twinlead with as many "strands" in the wire as you can find. Anyway, they CM3041DSB at Lowe's Middletown store - Here's the link(hope it works) :

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=56326-000000693-3041DSB&lpage=none

Specs for it on this page from CM :

http://www.channelmaster.com/Pages/TVS/SpartanAmp.htm

Here's the best 300Ohm twinlead RS has - unfortunetly you probably need to buy a lot more of it/for it(it shows $7.99 for 50 feet you only need a few feet of it) than you'll actually need, and I would get their more expensive stuff which is foam insulated. The non-foam insulated stuff is VERY lossy when it gets wet, and generally is not very good stuff :

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F003%5F007&product%5Fid=15%2D1174

-----------------

I don't think Lowe's has any twinlead, but not sure ... they might.

--------------------

Some other good preamps would be CM7775, CM7777, or CM7778. CM's "Titan2" series. These have a 75 ohm input from antenna(so you'll need to use your "current" matching transformer+a short piece of coax with F-connectors on each end to hook antenna to preamp), and 75 ohm output.

CM7775 is UHF only, and is a good choice for Dayton Digitals as it doesn't pass VHF at all - This can be a good thing "overload wise", since VHF signals(there will be some there, even with a UHF only antenna) don't "effect" the maximum signal input level of amp. However, it can be a bad thing if you ever want to use the amp, or pass VHF signals through the amp(I'm not sure whether CM7775 does VHF pass through w/o amplification or not, my Winegard AC-4990 preamp does not pass through VHF signals at all) in "future" applications you might have for it. Solid signal has CM7775 :

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=3&CAT=&PROD=ANC7775

CM7778 Might be a good choice for you as well. I use one for a VHF/FM antenna and am happy with it. You can set it to use either a "seperate" VHF input for VHF only --- or a "combined" VHF/UHF input for both VHF/UHF amplication). It is a bit lower gain than CM7775 or CM7777 and it's specs are identical to the 3041DSB, (except CM7778 has 75 ohm input instead of 300 ohm input) Which may be a good thing for your location, as you may not want TOO much gain or things could be "overloaded". Solid Signal also carries CM7778, I got mine at Dayton Wintronics, which is a "full line" CM distributor :

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=3&CAT=&PROD=ANC7778

CM7777 has same performance as CM7775 on UHF, but also does VHF amplification. It has 2 inputs, it can be set to use one input (antenna) solely for UHF and a seperate antenna/input for VHF, or you can use one input for both VHF/UHF. This one is often a good choice if you are using(or adding a VHF antenna in the future) seperate VHF/UHF antennas in the future/etc/etc/. Here's info on it from Solid signal :

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=3&CAT=&PROD=ANC7777

Here's the specs from CM on CM7775, CM7777+ CM7778 :

http://www.channelmaster.com/Pages/TVS/TitanAmp.htm

Winegard and blonder-tongue makes some nice preamps as well.

Info on winegard amps here( Note : I use a Winegard AC-4990(old model, no longer available) UHF preamp for my "main" UHF antenna and am very happy with it). There is a Winegard Distributor in Dayton which I bought a couple of things from with good results(I can't recall the name of the place) :

http://www.winegard.com/offair/amplifiers.htm

Info on Blonder-Tongue preamps here ( I use a early 80's model Suburban II for my dayton antenna --- It has been, on the mast and in pretty much continious use with one antenna or another for 24 years and still works great ) :

http://www.starkelectronic.com/btk1-1.htm

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Probably more than you wanted to know --- Oh -- One other thing -- With all of the above amps, you mount the amp on the mast, and you put the power supply for the amp Inside(along the coax run somewhere) so you can plug it into A/C ... It supplies power to the amp via the Coax -- Doesn't really matter "where" inside you put the power supply, except that you can't put a standard splitter(or anything else that will block the power that goes from power supply to the mast mount preamp) between the preamp and power supply. So, you put the splitters/etc between the power supply and the "TV"(or TV's).

I have the power supplies for my mast mount preamps in the attic, just before splitting signals that go to different rooms. (I feed as many as 10 different devices in 4 different rooms the "feed" from my Dayton antenna, for instance with additional amplification other than the mast mount preamp -- Dayton towers are of course only 12 miles away and are strong signals off my CM4228 8-Bay UHF antenna side mounted 25 FT up on the tower).

Hope this helps.

I live in Union, KY just outside of florence and I am way confused about HD and OTA, howver I think I know what I need now..since this is a Cincy forum I beleive my needs would be same similiar..

1 I need a OTA antenna.indoor or outdoor..but based on antenna web I think I can get awat with an indoor uhf/vhf

2. I need a HD reciever...

3. WIth this I can get locals in HD, 5,9,12,19 etc...I get none of the directTV channels in HD unless I subscribe to HD with them....

All of this sound right... ?
Thanks

Post or PM me....

Terry

jeff - what about this one?

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=56602-000000693-3042&lpage=none

http://www.channelmaster.com/Pages/TVS/DistributnAmps.htm

thanks

jim

All of this sound right... ?


Yes, pretty much. There are OTA Only DTV/HD receivers(If your HD set doesn't have one built in), and DirecTV HD receivers which do both OTA DTV/HD and HD from DirecTV.

keep in mind, Antennaweb doesn't do predicitions for indoor antennas, but if the stations you want to receive pop up in yellow chances are better an indoor antenna might do the trick for you. The "frequency assignment" column in antennaweb shows the actual frequencies(channels) the digital stations transmit on, In Cincinnati, WCPO-DT(ABC HD) Transmits on VHF 10, the rest are on UHF currently. WKRC-DT(CBS HD) currently transmits on UHF 31, but has filed with FCC to move to VHF 12 after analog shut off.


jeff - what about this one?

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?acti...3042&lpage=none

http://www.channelmaster.com/Pages/...tributnAmps.htm



That's a distribution amp, I'd think it would be fine as distribution amps go, but I have no direct experience with it. Price looks nice too. Might help you out, especially if you install it "in the attic", or as close to antenna as possible. You can't put it outside of course, not waterproof and you need to plug it in to A/C. I had heard some good reports concerning performance of a Motorola line amp/distribution amp, which Best buy had at one time, but I can't recall the part #/etc.

However, again I'd still recommend a mast mount preamp, as it will recover losses from splitting the signal as well as all feedline losses between the mast+receiver(instead of just between distribution amp and devices), as well as possibly improve VSWR/Impedance matching, and possibly lower the overall noise factor of the system. The CM3042 shows 3.5db NF which is good, that's probably better than your receiver but still might be "noiser" NF you would get than a 3.5db NF preamp on the mast without the extra "noise"(losses really) being "added" by the extra coax between antenna+distribution amp - this could also potentially be more of an issue w/o a mast mount preamp if your VSWR(voltage standing wave ratio) is high(you'll have no way of detiriming that) ...

I see the 3042 only has one output but, As far as splitting the signal and using the seperate outputs on a distribution amp with more than one output, keep in mind you only lose about 3db with a 2 way splitter(again this can be more than "recovered" by mast mount preamp as well), but you'll lose more than 4db on upper UHF channels per 100Ft of good RG6 ...

For instance, putting a distribution amp near the TV/HTPC/etc, is only going to be able to recover that 3db loss you'd have with a 2 way splitter put between the amp+the TV/receiver/etc, but(more or less) putting preamp on the mast recovers "all" of the loss in the feedline+ for splitting the signal, more or less up to the rated gain of the preamp(and I doubt you are going to lose that much) .... so, using mast mount preamp is like being able to take your receiver up on the roof and hooking it directly up to antenna(but actually a bit better than that) - as long as it doesn't "overload" of course (overloading can be even more of a problem with many of the cheaper distribution amps out there, but I'd think the CM3042 should be OK in your circumstance ..

All that being said, I suppose, putting a CM3042 "in the attic"/etc. so it's there is as little feedline between it and antenna as possible could be a good "compromise" if you want to save $25~30 .... Just don't expect to get as good "performance"/results as you would from a mast mount preamp ...

I just aimed my roof mounted antenna north towards Dayton. I don't have a compass to get an exact direction. I rescaned for channels and I am able to get 2,7,22,26,45 in SD and 45 (FOX) in HD. WKEF 22 SD looks really clear, but I can't seem to pick up WKEF-DT. Is it possible that I need an antenna with a longer range? My house came with this antenna, so I can't really say what kind it is other than I would describe it as a medium directional w/o a preamp. I have been highly considering getting the UHF only antenna recommended earlier with 4 bowtie elements. Any recommendations or questions that may troubleshoot my current configuration? Should I try slight reaimings to see if I can pick up WKEF DT?

Also, I live just north of Ronald Regan Hwy on Eldora Dr. near plainfield road.

Sort of.

Sounds like you already have D*? They have a pretty good deal on their HD Tivo right now if you're been a customer. That will solve your receiver problem and get you a PVR to boot.

It might help to know your setup.

peace . . .



1 I need a OTA antenna.indoor or outdoor..but based on antenna web I think I can get awat with an indoor uhf/vhf

2. I need a HD reciever...

3. WIth this I can get locals in HD, 5,9,12,19 etc...I get none of the directTV channels in HD unless I subscribe to HD with them....

All of this sound right... ?
Thanks

Post or PM me....

Terry

I rescaned for channels and I am able to get 2,7,22,26,45 in SD and 45 (FOX) in HD.


I'm surprised you aren't getting WPTD 16 analog as well, especially if you are getting WKEF 22 clearly. If you could list the stations you are receiving by "analog" or "digital", instead of "SD" and "HD"(HD is just a couple of the formats of digital TV(DTV) and if any of the analog stations are snowy or ghosty it might help us a little better figure out what may be going on.


Is it possible that I need an antenna with a longer range? ..... Any recommendations or questions that may troubleshoot my current configuration?


Sure, better antenna might be a good idea, probably a good idea to go through your current setup+make sure everything is in good shape first though to see if you can correct any issues that way to maybe get a better idea of how much "better" of an antenna you might need.

For instance, If the feedline is twinlead instead of coax, good idea to replace it with RG6, or if it is coax and has "detioriated" it will probably be a good idea to replace your feedline with new RG-6 as well.

What tends to happen when feedline or coax detiordiates, or gets/has gotten water in it is it tends too lose much more signal on higher channels(such as the Hi-UHF channels 3 dayton digital transmit on - including WKEF-DT) than is the case on lower channels . A balun(matching transformer) - especially a "bad" one which hooks Coax to antenna might be causing you to losing a lot more signal on certian channels as well. You might also want to check the feedline to make sure there's nothing "odd" connected to it in line between antenna+"TV", especially as it seems odd you aren't getting analog 16 .... Loose connections or if water has gotten inside the coax are also some things you might want to look at as well.

As for the antenna and if you need a "longer range" one It's hard to say without knowing what model of antenna you have though .. Many of the smaller/Medium size VHF/UHF combos don't have great performance on UHF, especially the higher UHF channels such as WKEF-DT transmits on, so You might just need an antenna with better performance on UHF for Good Dayton UHF reception, the Hi-UHF channels/stations especially.


I have been highly considering getting the UHF only antenna recommended earlier with 4 bowtie elements.


I'd think That would probably be a good idea for Dayton reception for you(it might even get enough from WCPO on VHF with antenna aimed towards Cincy towers - hard to say), a mast mount preamp would probably be a very good idea for Dayton(but not for Cincinnati, but that should be fine as long as you are using the antenna just for Dayton, and especially one with very good directivity) as well.

I'd probably try the CM4221 first, but a little "better" UHF only antenna with more gain/better directivity might not be a bad idea either, perhaps especially if you need to add a preamp(Cincy stations are probably very strong at your location, and you don't want to overload preamp off the "back side" of the antenna, so the better directivity your antenna has, not only the more signal you can get from Dayton, the more signal you can "reject" off the back/side of the antenna from the Cincinnati stations) - such as CM4228 8 Bay bowtie, or antennasdirect XG91.


Should I try slight reaimings to see if I can pick up WKEF DT?


Might be worth a shot, but if you are getting reasonably ghost free/snow free reception of the Dayton UHF analogs such as 26+45, It might not help much, and replacing the antenna with one which performs better on hi-UHF channels, as well as replacing your old feedline(if necessary) with new RG-6

Hope this helps, let us know how it goes. Just keep in mind, I think I ususally tend to think fairly conservatively about these things, and the "solution" might not be as difficult as it might seem ....

wow.. wkef.. night and day difference with the crap wcpo spews :)

question.. for those with an hd tivo - does the hdmi port work?? reading about lots of problems with it

jim

I'm surprised you aren't getting WPTD 16 analog as well, especially if you are getting WKEF 22 clearly. If you could list the stations you are receiving by "analog" or "digital", instead of "SD" and "HD"(HD is just a couple of the formats of digital TV(DTV) and if any of the analog stations are snowy or ghosty it might help us a little better figure out what may be going on.

Here are the stations that I can receive:
2 Analog Fuzzy
5 Analog Ghosting
5 Digital (Clear)
7 Analog (Small virtical wave pattern)
9 Analog ghosting and "bending" type interference where about 10% of the screen will distort and will occur in several places, but not all at once
12 Analog ghosting and "bending"
12 Digital (clear)
14 Digital (clear)
16 Analog some fuzziness
19 Analog ghosting
19 Digital (clear)
22 Analog clear
25 Analog Extremely poor reception
26 Analog Fairly fuzzy
38 Analog Extremely poor reception
43 Analog Clear
43 Digital break ups
45 Analog very fuzzy
45 Digital clear
48 Analog Ghosting and bending
48 Digital clear
61 Analog very slight fuzziness
64 Analog Clear
64 Digital

I know there were some people on here with problems with the HD for Monday Night Football and so forth.
Some were experiencing jaggies, or whatever that is.
I didn't watch, but right now I am picking up the Miami/FSU game in HD via an OTA and the picture is outstanding.

WCPO?? Looks like crap as usuall.. WKEF blows it away


I know there were some people on here with problems with the HD for Monday Night Football and so forth.
Some were experiencing jaggies, or whatever that is.
I didn't watch, but right now I am picking up the Miami/FSU game in HD via an OTA and the picture is outstanding.

I know there were some people on here with problems with the HD for Monday Night Football and so forth.
Some were experiencing jaggies, or whatever that is.
I didn't watch, but right now I am picking up the Miami/FSU game in HD via an OTA and the picture is outstanding.

Since the yard lines aren't that contrasting against the grass it isn't so noticable. Here are places that you should look at:

Brick wall: You will see a rippling/flashing of the brick wall
FSU logo: You will seegagged edges along the outside edge of the logo mostly on wide shots while the camera moves up and down.
End Zone Cameras: Look at the white of the endzones.
Press box 20yard line camera: look at the white of the end zones and look at the ACC logo.
The crowd: If you look in wide shots you will notice that the crowd is "shiny" and this isn't normal or right.


Close ups hide the poor resolution and then wide shots will make this problem more noticeable.


If you have a DVR record the game. Record SportSCenter and watch the cilps from the game and compare them to your WCPO recording. You will be amazed at the difference in quality.

i am going to attempt to caputre some shots from wkef and wcpo with the dvico fusion 5 in a few minutes when the 2nd half starts

jim

I think WCPO engineer's(and everyone else) would be amazed at the difference if they stuck up an antenna and compared their HD to WKEF-DT's .....

Here are the stations that I can receive:


I assume Cincinnati analog stations look much "better" with antenna aimed towards them .. otherwise, seems like it's working "ok" - not saying a "better" antenna setup might not be a good idea, that might help you out, it's just hard to say how much(especially given the terrain issue it looks like you have for Dayton as mentioned farther below)

For instance, even analog 25+38 should come in just fine with antenna aimed generally South West. I show All Cincinnati Stations except WSTR 64/W61DE as between about 201+227 degree true bearing(South West) from your location, WSTR 64 is at 256 degrees true bearing -- Or WSW(more west), analog 61 at 261 degrees)... WKOI 43 transmits from near Oxford at 328 degrees - to your NW, WPTO 14 analog Oxford at 318 degrees(the digital transmits from Fox 19's tower near Downtown Cincinnati),

I show Dayton stations are about 35 miles to your NNE (13 degree true bearing, about 18 degrees with magnetic deviation of +5 degrees for our area), So, if you have the antenna aimed north, moving it just a bit more so it's NNE might help ... Without a compass, you could line antenna boom up with North Star to find true North, and estimate 13 degrees ... Note ... Seat of pants Calulation ... the width of your fist seen at arms length is about 5 degrees or so....

Although, sometimes antenna can get better signals if they are aimed a bit "off target", especially if there are obstructions in the way, and it looks like there likely is IF I have your location fairly close ...

So, perhaps MORE importantly see the below ...


Also, I live just north of Ronald Regan Hwy on Eldora Dr. near plainfield road.


Your exact location might make a bit of a difference here, but I ran a topo profile between Eldora Drive Just North of Ronald Reagan (about a mile west or so of Plainfield) and it looks like terrain obstruction is quite likely to be an issue for you for Dayton stations. Signal attenuation by Terrain issues like this are also more of an issue the shorter the wavelength/higher the UHF channel the station is transmitting on. You are citing the PSIP remapped digital channel numbers in your list. Dayton digital stations actually transmit on:

WBDT-DT 18 (WB HD, Remaps to 26.1) - Note this is the lowest power Dayton digital, that might explain a bit why you aren't getting them, even though they are on a lower channel).

WRGT-DT 30 (FOX HD - Remaps to 45.1)
WHIO-DT 41 (CBS HD - remaps to 7.1)
WDTN-DT 50 (NBC HD - Remaps to 2.x)
WKEF-DT 51 (ABC HD - remaps to 22.1)
WPTD-DT 58 (PBS HD - remaps to 16.x)


Attached is elevation profile from location mentioned above (at 0 mile marker at left) to Dayton Antenna farm at Right. At right, the red "stick" I've drawn in is the approximate height of Dayton DTV transmitting antennas. The top red line is just "connecting the dots" to the location at Eldordo drive(I show that at 800FT ASL BTW). Since the software won't take curvature of earth into account, The bottom red line is my rough estimation of the "effect" of curvature of earth at that distance(which should equate to about a 300 ft "drop" for about 30 miles).

I would estimate those parts of "ground" the red lines(rough estimation of "line of sight" signal path) go through could certianly be why you aren't getting better results with your current antenna setup. A "better" antenna or mounting antenna in a different spot(such as higher) could very well help you out(but no guarentees), you'll just have to try it and see, .... That you're getting 30 is a good sign, but that 22 looks good but 45 are "fuzzy", and that you aren't getting digitals on 41, 50, 51+58 is not ...

A longely-rice study for the Dayton stations for your location would be able to better predict what sort of signal levels you are dealing with, and therefore how "substantial" your antenna needs might be for those Hi-UHF dayton digitals, If you've got a shot at it at all. There is some info in the past several pages of the "antenna thread" in reception area on free software(runs on linux) with which you can do longely rice studies. Might be easier(but more costly perhaps) though to stick up a CM4228 or XG91 with preamp aimed towards Dayton and see if it works or not, that would probably be your best bet given the apparent terrain issue to your North/NE .... As I'm not sure CM4221 would be "enough", and the terrain issues might be difficult to overcome with even the best of UHF antennas(CM4228/XG91) given the high-UHF frequencies being used .... Sometimes though, these things can end up being not so bad as one might think .....

ok...

wcpo
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/1930/snapshotj00304hx.th.jpg (http://img25.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshotj00304hx.jpg)


wkef
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/8049/snapshotj00267it.th.jpg (http://img25.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshotj00267it.jpg)


cropped thumbnail - details

Make sure to view the images Jim has linked from imageshack at their original size(the attached ones on AVS's server should be OK "as is"), otherwise if they are "sized to fit your screen", both may very well show the same "jaggie like" problems WCPO-DT has .... (WCPO-DT/ABC HD, 1280x360 unique pixel data, hint, hint, cough cough ...)

Wow, WCPO looks horrible yet again for the 2005 football season. I have switched to WKEF, but the video seems to freeze for about 4-5 seconds, while the audio stays on. I wrote a message to WKEF, I will wait for a response. Now concerning WCPO, does anyone know a direct email address to the station engineer? I believe I once had one, but I am unable to find it at this time. Please post the email address, or PM it to me.

I have switched to WKEF, but the video seems to freeze for about 4-5 seconds, while the audion stays on.

Thanks for contacting them. Maybe if enough folks do so they'll finally figure out they've got something wrong, and it's not on the "viewer end".

Update: Sorry, but I don't think it appropriate to share private contact info without permission. Posting private communications, especially "word for word" is also a no-no.

Usually, probably the best way to get in contact with stations' engineering staffs is to call their switchboard during normal business hours and ask for engineering. If that doesn't work, a snail mail letter(be sure to include appropraite contact info - name/address/etc) by law, must go in the stations public file.

Anyhow, WKEF-DT video freezes have been going on during ABC HD(and NBC HD when they were NBC HD affiliate prior to 9/1/04) - randomly - on average maybe once or twice per hour during HD programming --- not to say it happens even once during EVERY hour of HD -- never there during syndicated/local programming ---- for oh, well over 2 years now. It wasn't issue for NBC HD for the first year or so they were on the air, so something "changed".

A number of us have contacted them about it, I'm not sure how much effort they've made to diagnose the problem. I tried numerous time to demonstrate to them it wasn't a reception issue on my end - audio stays up during the freeze(which wouldn't be the case with DTV if it was a reception issue), It never happened on their "old" SD multicast sub they used to run(again would happen there too if it were a reception issue)/etc/etc, but it never seemed to quite fly with them. So, for whatever reasons, it seems to be a difficult issue for them to sort out.

Search Dayton thread for "video freezes" or "freezes" for more info ....

It beats the jaggies though, that's for sure ...

Your exact location might make a bit of a difference here, but I ran a topo profile.....

Did you use special software to generate that topographic profile or is there a resource available online that produced this image?

Terry,

Did that using "elevation profile" function from TopoUSA 3.0(I think they are up to 4.0 or 5.0 now) from Delorme. The Topo Data from USGS for entire U.S. is either on several CD's or a single DVD, I think it's about $99 bucks or so these days.

I bought it for Hiking/orienteering purposes, not for plotting elevation profiles to broadcast towers, but it works for that as well at least in a "seat of pants" sense to get an idea if there may be terrain obstructions involved. Transmitting tower locations I plotted for various stations and Transmitting antenna height for my drawn in "towers" are taken from FCC data on the station's transmitting facilities.

Raw Topo data from USGS is available online "for free" I believe, and there is also some freeware which can use it, such as the SPLAT! software(which actually does longely-rice propagation "studies") -- SPLAT! has been discussed fairly extenively in antenna thread(sticky thread near top in this forum area) recently - It needs Linux(or potentially other Unix flavors) to run, though. For more info on it, See some of avsforum member Holl_ands recent posts in antenna thread, or the info on SPLAT! in the following excellent article on "do it yourself Longely-rice studies" :

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/On-RF/F_Lung-02.02.05.shtml

Mine works perfectly. There is certainly a well documented high rate of failure but I believe the problem is addressed in newer units.

peace . . .



question.. for those with an hd tivo - does the hdmi port work?? reading about lots of problems with it

jim

I finally took my rear projection hitachi50v715 apart to try to remove what I thought was a bug. Well it turns out that it's not a bug at all but appears to be some kind of small defect in the screen itself. When conditions are right (bright behind the spot) it looks like a small beetle maybe 1/4 the size of a ladybug or perhaps a large gnat. Don't know what to do about it(if anything). I have had the TV for less than a year and bought an extended warranty from HHGregg for 3 years. Any suggestions? Comments?

shawn - when you took it apart did you remove the light box to see if there is something on the bulb?? But - since its less than a year and you have the 3 year extended plan I would call hhgregg and have them fix it!

jim

tim, thanks.. thats what I was looking for.. one last question, does dolby digital get outputted via the spdif out on the back of the unit - even if you use hdmi?

I ordered mine today!! will be in on saturday afternoon.

jim

Mine works perfectly. There is certainly a well documented high rate of failure but I believe the problem is addressed in newer units.

peace . . .

tim, thanks.. thats what I was looking for.. one last question, does dolby digital get outputted via the spdif out on the back of the unit - even if you use hdmi?

I ordered mine today!! will be in on saturday afternoon.

jim
Yes. I'm using HDMI to my HDTV and digital optical audio to my 5.1 receiver. Works beautifully.

One word of warning...after a few weeks of use (and the addition of a big handful of Season Passes), you'll notice the box become slower and slower to respond to your remote. This is not much of an issue while watching a program (live or recorded), but moreso when navigating the menu system. It is worst when adding or editing programs to record and season passes.

This is a well-documented issue and one that should/could be corrected with the 6.2 update that the SD boxes received a couple months back. Latest rumor is that there will be no 6.2 update for the HDTiVo. Rather, they will be swapped out for the comparable MPEG-4 HD DVR. Should be no charge with a new 2 yr commitment.

chris.. yep I figured as much.. the sd tivo's were painfully slow prior to 6.2 .. oh well I gues its a give and take

I finally took my rear projection hitachi50v715 apart to try to remove what I thought was a bug. Well it turns out that it's not a bug at all but appears to be some kind of small defect in the screen itself. When conditions are right (bright behind the spot) it looks like a small beetle maybe 1/4 the size of a ladybug or perhaps a large gnat. Don't know what to do about it(if anything). I have had the TV for less than a year and bought an extended warranty from HHGregg for 3 years. Any suggestions? Comments?

Shawn,

Strangely enough, even though it's a different model+CRT RPTV evidently they are talking about rather than LCD RP, but I thought it interesting how "similar" the following post is on "The "official" Hitachi 5xS715 thread" in the RPTV area ... Well, it was spiders behind a protective screen(glarescreen) specifically in this case .... So perhaps it is at least possible you're having a somewhat similiar issue issue on your set. :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5946554&&#post5946554

I don't see many V715 specifics threads, with much info but this thread on the V810 might be one to dig through as well :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6131328&highlight=V715#post6131328

In any event, the RPTV display area at AVSforum is probably the best place to go to research such issues, or to post questions about your set. A quick search of that forum for "Hitachi 50v715" is how I found the above info ...

Jim,

I've had 3 seperate HD10-250s. The first one had HDMI issues out of the box. I took it back to Best Buy and they replaced it. After about 5 hours of use, the HDMI port died with a heavy green tint. I called DirecTV with issues of that and WCPO would break up for 5 to 10 seconds throughout HD shows (really annoying during Alias). DirecTV sent me a new one and that HDMI port died also. 2 months ago I reattached it and it has been working fine ever since. I've heard that they sent out an upgrade that took care of the issues. A good website to check for these issues - www.tivocommunity.com

Kam

Jim/Jeff

Thanks for the info. Yeah I took out the lightbox and dusted the bulb(airduster). Also gave the lens a few blasts as well. Whatever this is it is definately on the back layer of the screen and it is a... well pit is the only way to describe it and it's inside of 9 pixels (I'm guessing pixels when I get close to the screen I see a grid and it is those grid sections I'm counting). While I had the screen leaned out I took a fingernail to it very lightly thinking it was a stuck bug and thats how I know it is actually a pit.

Anyway I'll take this to the hitachi forums. Let you guys know what I find out though.

Can anyone find out for sure if this game will be broadcasted in HD?

HDSportsguide doesnt have it listed, but that doesnt make sense

ABC showed Miami - FSU last night and this is a much better / bigger game.

Anyone know for sure!!

Tony

abc.com is now listing the game as hd

OK, after some cable cleanup, the Terk HDTVi antenna is in the attic over the garage feeding my Samsung SIR-T451 and I'm actually still getting good reception! The only thing is 48 seems to come and go. Tonight it wasn't picking up the signal at all. (I'm in Monfort Heights, 45247 btw). I'm pretty happy though as long as it keeps getting a strong signal for everything else and it doesn't prove to be too "finnicky" as I try to get 48 more dependably.

Question, I remember reading something about antenna interference with multiple antennas. I'm thinking of getting the CM4228 to pickup the Dayton HD stations (I was very unimpressed with the Miami-FSU game the other night on WCPO) and running it through a switch with the HDTVi. The two antennas could be roughly 3'-10' apart in the attic. Anything to worry about? I figured I could just switch between Dayton and Cincy HD stations. Too bad 9 and 12 just don't go to UHF...

Yes absolutely. Mine feeds right into my digital receiver and 5.1 lights up accordingly. You just have to be sure to set the audio to DD as that isn't the default. You need an optical cable.

Once you get past the limited Tivo UI its a great box. Dual HD tuners is just real cool. I've had several Tivos and other PVR's but this is my first HD Tivo. I don't know how it compares to other HD PVR's but the picture quality is perfect (or as perfect as the source). My one permanent recording is the HDNet test patterns. :)

I am just about ready to put a pair of mega size drives in it. A word of advice, if you of the mind to expand its capacity it's a LOT easier to do before you get much content on it or if you don't care about losing what's there. I won't get too carried away on this topic at the moment but if you're into it LMK.

peace . . .


tim, thanks.. thats what I was looking for.. one last question, does dolby digital get outputted via the spdif out on the back of the unit - even if you use hdmi?

I ordered mine today!! will be in on saturday afternoon.

jim

You can almost bet the farm there will never be a 6.2 release for D* HD Tivo. The guide is even slower than the SD tivos at least the S1's. It's good you are used to Tivo guides because that is really the only usable guide as the D* format is so slow as to make you want to put it through the window. Most of what I read was the guide would get faster after it was indexed and I found that to be true although faster is still real slow. So make that another tip - immediately switch the guide to Tivo format.

The good news is that with two tuners channel surfing isn't really that necessary.

Bottom line is thet Tivo UI is slow and featureless. Its almost painful to come back to except for that darn cool dual tuner HD gotcha.

peace . . .


chris.. yep I figured as much.. the sd tivo's were painfully slow prior to 6.2 .. oh well I gues its a give and take

Hard to imagine either of those statements being true considering FSU/Miami is one of the biggest rivalries in college football. Still it would be interesting to see the numbers since even tho FL has a huge population so does OH and TX but certainly FSU/UM has more national appeal and you have a monday night vs a saturday night.

ABC is not committed to do much NCAA football in HD this year but its good to see them at least adding the big matchups. Its really amazing how little they have scheduled so maybe they will surprise us.

peace . . .



ABC showed Miami - FSU last night and this is a much better / bigger game.


Tony

Hard to imagine either of those statements being true considering FSU/Miami is one of the biggest rivalries in college football. Still it would be interesting to see the numbers since even tho FL has a huge population so does OH and TX but certainly FSU/UM has more national appeal and you have a monday night vs a saturday night.

ABC is not committed to do much NCAA football in HD this year but its good to see them at least adding the big matchups. Its really amazing how little they have scheduled so maybe they will surprise us.

peace . . .

While Disney has committed very little on their ABC station, they do broadcast quite a bit on their ESPN stations. Too bad this doesn't usually mean marquee matchups getting HD coverage. I agree that it really was a timing thing with the FSU/Miami game. ABC will be coming off a Thursday night game in Foxborough, MA and probably will not setup the game in columbus. I haven't seen evidence yet that ABC has more than one truck at their disposal and the ESPN HD trucks will be at other games.

Looks like they are bringing the HD truck to columbus on saturday. Too bad I'll be driving back from Ann Arbor to watch it live, but i'm sure I can listen in all the way down 75.

-Hopes they bring the HD truck to Ann Arbor on Nov 19th.

Question, I remember reading something about antenna interference with multiple antennas. I'm thinking of getting the CM4228 to pickup the Dayton HD stations (I was very unimpressed with the Miami-FSU game the other night on WCPO) and running it through a switch with the HDTVi. The two antennas could be roughly 3'-10' apart in the attic. Anything to worry about? I figured I could just switch between Dayton and Cincy HD stations.

As long as you use seperate feedlines for each antenna and a A/B switch to switch between the antennas there is nothing to worry about. Placing antennas 3' apart is probably fine for UHF, 5~6ft apart is better for VHF -- but, in any case, don't put an antenna directly "in front" of where another one is pointed.

You might have some luck from the attic, but probably best to get the CM4228 out of the attic and on on the other side of the "roof" for Dayton, though. Hard to say if WSTR would cause problems overloading a preamp(as WSTR looks to be only about 4~5 miles to your east) - otherwise Preamp would probably be a good idea for you for Dayton as well(especially perhaps if you put CM4228 in the attic). Hopefully with the antenna aimed away from WSTR's tower it would reject enough signal off the side to keep input signal levels from swamping the amp.

I looked at elevation profile to Dayton towers from intersection of Cheviot rd+Galbrith - Shows 39 miles to Dayton antenna farm, and looks very good, no sign whatsoever of terrain obstructions. Your exact location could make a difference, however.

If I were in your location for local digital reception I'd probably use CM4228 on Roof for Dayton(Maybe with preamp), And for Cincinnati stations, I'd also put the antenna outside and probably use either a Small VHF/UHF combo(such as RS VU-75 or VU-90 or CM3016) for Cincinnati - or even better - given the about 60 degree spread between WSTR and WCVN, I'd probably use A CM4221 for UHF, if it didn't work well enough on VHF(probably not, but hard to say) I'd combine with a VHF/UHF joiner(such as CM#0549) to a VHF antenna either "Rabbit ears", or use the VHF section on a small VHF/UHF combo(such as RS VU-75XR), or For Hi-VHF only, a VHF antenna such as Winegard's 6 element Hi-band VHF yagi.

But, that's just me .... And, it's quite possible an antenna such as CM4221 on roof with rotor would also give you good results(with a little rotating), although a mid size VHF/UHF combo such as the Winegard Kathy had with rotor would probably be a better choice .... Rotor is Less convienient than a A/B switch however, and just as (or more) expensive to get the rotor as it is seperate Dayton/Cincy antennas .... and, you have to run the rotor control cable, just as you have to run the seperate feedlines for Dayton/Cincinnati antennas ....


Too bad 9 and 12 just don't go to UHF...


VHF is usually easier to receive in terrain obstructed areas and "fringe areas", and is generally easier to receive with simple antennas overall - Although, man-made noise/RFI is often more of a problem with VHF(low VHF especially), and especially with indoor antennas. VHF also requires much less power to cover the same area as is the case on UHF. So, it's one of those "it has advantages+disadvantages" things ....

Also, Keep in mind, WKRC-DT currently transmits on UHF 31(remaps to 12.1), they won't be moving their digital station to 12 until after analog shut off(and that's only tentative(but PROBABLY won't change) as it pertains to their first round channel election for 12 for after analog shut off).

WCPO-DT 10 (remaps to 9.x) is the only Cincinnati digital station currently on VHF. There are of course analogs currently on 5,9,12 in Cincinnati, and 2+7 in Dayton.

It really wouldn't make antenna much "bigger" than for UHF only if they were to design a good VHF-Hi(ch 7~13 174~216MHZ)/UHF combo antenna. CM4228 is one antenna UHF antenna I know of that actually already works fairly well on VHF-hi for many folks. It's the lo-VHF channels (2~6 - 54~88MHZ) that need the long elements(9' is 1/2 wavelentgh dipole on channel 2) that are present on VHF/UHF combo antennas, and it doesn't look like we'll have any stations on 2-6 around here after analog shut off. WDKY-DT 4 Fox Lexington is the only current Lo-VHF digital within 200 miles of Cincinnati.

Hopefully, we'll start seeing some antennas soon that are designed for good UHF+hi-VHF(ch 7-13) reception, as it looks like few, if any stations will end up on lo-VHF after analog shut off.

I live in the northern part of Cincy and subscribe to Adelphia. About 4-5 days ago, CBS stopped airing in hi def. I called Adelphia and all they would say is that it was due to a contract dispute. Has anyone else heard of this? I am hosting a Bengals party Sunday and wanted to watch the game in hi def, but wont be able to. My analog 12 CBS works fine. Any suggestions? Thanks.

terryfoster - dillionvale? a know a few people that work for sycamore township - good place to live

Doesnt really matter as the game will not be in high def anyway. Good news is Adelphia will be Time Warner soon (provided the sale goes through). Are you in Warren County?

I live in the northern part of Cincy and subscribe to Adelphia. About 4-5 days ago, CBS stopped airing in hi def. I called Adelphia and all they would say is that it was due to a contract dispute. Has anyone else heard of this? I am hosting a Bengals party Sunday and wanted to watch the game in hi def, but wont be able to. My analog 12 CBS works fine. Any suggestions? Thanks.

dinggoose..

First, WELCOME to AVS. Second, a quick apology. Instead of hitting "quote," I hit "edit" on your message and screwed it up. I think I fixed it back, thanks to Jim. So, please ignore that "edited by Dr Don" line and chalk it up to a fat-fingered new moderator.

Doc

I do live in Warren County. Even though the game is not in true high def, the picture is still 2-3 times better the my basic channel 12. Have you heard of this so called contract dispute, or are they just telling me this?