Cincinnati, OH - HDTV [Text View] - Page 16

Nitewatchman

09-09-05, 03:56 PM

John,

First off, sure there are things you can do without spending a bunch of money.

I think I talked about many of the issues you bring up in recent responses on this thread to Jim Tressler, terryfoster, and Kathy - so, reading some of those posts over the last 3~5 pages or so might answer some of your questions.

WCPO-DT broadcasts on VHF 10, according to specs on Winegard site(at link below), Sharpshooter SS-3000 has 5db less gain on VHF than is the case on UHF. That might be part of your problem :

http://www.winegard.com/offair/sharpshooter.htm

If you notice from the specs, the sharpshooter actually provides NO gain(over a reference dipole - "rabbit ears") on UHF either. In comparision, Silver sensor has about 4~6db gain across entire UHF band.

Inexpensive, directional "outdoor" antennas of conventional design (generally around $50 or less) such as VHF/UHF combo's RS-VU75, RS-VU90 have much better performance than either of those antennas(as does the $25 RS U75R Jim+dusterscott is using -- but ONLY on UHF), especially if they are monted outdoors and aimed properly - you can put a outdoor antenna indoors as well of course, but signals will be attenuated greatly by putting it indoors and multipath will likely be more of an issue.

Also, Remember, the "amplifier" can't actually increase the amount of signal the antenna is receving, it can only reduce signal loss in your feedline and splitting the signal, and (with a preamp with a low NF) CAN reduce overall noise factor of your antenna/receiver system. A silver sensor+a good high quality preamp would likely perform better than the squareshooter.

As for why you are not getting WKEF-DT, hard to say -- a lot of issues can be involved with OTA reception, some of which can be frequency specific(such as multipath, and there can be "hot spots" and "cold spots" to put your antenna for reception of any given station. Station specific issues can be an issue as well ... such as transmitting antenna height, antenna pattern(neither of those should be a problem for WKEF-DT though), Frequency of operation(channel - signals on Higher UHF channels where the wavelentghs are mush shorter are especially "easier" to attenuate due to terrain issues or having antenna indoors) , and Power. WKEF-DT transmits 138KW ERP on UHF 51 with a non-directional antenna pattern, WDTN-DT (NBC HD Dayton) Transmits 1000KW ERP on UHF 50 with a non-directional antenna pattern.

As for using two broadband antennas combined onto same feedline and "aimed" in different directions, - again see my earlier more thorough posts on this in this thread but --- basically -- you can try it(just juse a 2 way splitter "backwards" , you might get lucky but chances are good it won't work very well to provide reliable reception(it might work on a calm day, but if the wind starts blowing the tree limbs around/etc, that might change) , as the two antennas will be out of phase. The dayton antenna will pick up "nasty" signals from Cincinnati stations off the "back side" and the Cincinnati antenna will pick up "nasty signals" from Dayton off the back side, and the "nasty parts" of the signals will be combined with the good parts of the signals coming off the appropriate antenna aimed in proper direction.

Your best bet is to run seperate feedlines from Cincinnati and Dayton antennnas and use a A/B switch to switch between them, or use a single, directional antenna and rotor.

You might ask, why not use a good, or better "multidirectional antenna" instead? Because, there really aren't any. Antenna "physics 101" says --- In order to improve the performance of an antenna to pull in weaker signals(or reduce multipath or interference issues/etc), we need to increase gain and directivity. In order to do this, a UHF antenna is going to need to be "bigger" than a UHF loop antenna, and a VHF antenna is going to need to be "bigger" than rabbit ears ....

There is now such thing as a multidirectional antenna(used with a receiver that supports it) that "adjusts itself" for best results for any given station via CEA's "smartantenna interface", which both the receiver + antenna must support - The only reciver I know of that supports this is Funai "sylvania" 6900, and a antenna made in china(I can't recall the specific "brand name" of it) .... That wouldn't be an inexpensive option of course, and still best to get that antenna outdoors as well ...

Nitewatchman

09-09-05, 05:46 PM

I think the digital/non-HD lines are not as clear as they should be.

Hmm .. I am seeing more "jaggedy" and shimmering "stuff" on WCPO-DT during local news SD upconvert tonight than I recall ever seeing before .. It has been a while, but I have looked at this pretty closely before and wasn't getting this .. I'm not seeing this on the analog currently, however ...

Another thing I'm noticing currently is that I'm getting very noticable MPEG2 artifacts on 9.1(remap), especially during fades or some quick "scene changes" .... I haven't seen that from them since way back when they were upconverting to 1080i .... My Sony XBR960 still says it is "720p", but I don't know if that is accurate or not, or just info it picked up during it's last channel scan/etc .... Can anyone with the proper hardware/software(such as TS reader) confirm they are currently sending 720p? Thanks ....

microbob

09-09-05, 06:28 PM

Hmm .. I am seeing more "jaggedy" and shimmering "stuff" on WCPO-DT during local news SD upconvert tonight than I recall ever seeing before .. It has been a while, but I have looked at this pretty closely before and wasn't getting this .. I'm not seeing this on the analog currently, however ...

....

I've noticed that the upconverts on 9.1 look bad. If you look closely, you can see the the picture jumps very slightly with a green tint on the local bug during ABC programming. There analog signal quality is pretty bad when you compare it to any of the other channels. I have noticed the jaggies on analog as well. I have to say, the on air signal looked better from the old studio.

dusterscott

09-09-05, 06:56 PM

Jeff, today I bought some antenna mast grounding wire from RS. I've been wanting to replace the coax cable that the D* antenna installer ran to the mast for some time now. Yes, that's what they used for grounding wire. The stuff I bought from RS is their catalog # 15-035. It's heavy gauge bare aluminum wire. Is this what I should use or do you recommend something else. Also I haven't installed a grounding block yet. I do have both antennas' coax cables protected by a Monster surge protector. Would a grounding block be redundant? Also it would be easier for me to install the grounding block (if you recommend that I use one) at the antenna mast rather than where the cables enter my house. I could use the same ground wire that I'm using to ground the mast and the service entrance is at the opposite end of the house from where the coax cables enter the house. Any advice is very much appreciated.

Nitewatchman

09-09-05, 07:14 PM

There analog signal quality is pretty bad when you compare it to any of the other channels.

Oh I agree, I'm just not seeing "jaggies" problems on the analog ... Color(especially) and black levels seem off to me from WCPO analog .... I suppose it *might* look better color wise much of the time with a display that's "pushing red" ... Then again, I often notice the same thing from ESPN (SD via E*) during live sports ....

Also, it looks to me lke in Cincinnati it's not just WCPO that seems to have a different sort of NTSC "look" to it ... For instance, WLWT analog seems on the "dark" side to me, gamma wise. Especially during NBC programming - look at it during Leno or Conan and compare to WLWT-DT for instance, or even WDTN 2 Analog Dayton, or WLEX Lex, or WAVE 3 --, and WKRC analog looks especially "soft" during local news stuff (so do their upconverts all the time - at least the "color" and gamma/black levels seem about the same on WKRC/WKRC-DT during upconverts, though) ....

Nitewatchman

09-09-05, 07:46 PM

The stuff I bought from RS is their catalog # 15-035. It's heavy gauge bare aluminum wire.

I didn't look it up on RS site, but sounds like it should be fine for the mast. On this, NEC Says :

"The grounding conductor for the mast and discharge unit shall not be smaller than 10 copper AWG and it’s length shall be as short as practicable run in as straight a line as practicable [800.21]."

Update: looked it up on RS site, which says it's 8 gauge -- which would be fine for Mast+for ground blocks for outer conductor of your coax runs, but you'll need #6 or larger gauge to meet NEC for bonding your ground for antenna mast/coax to your Utility service ground. I'd probably drive a ground rod for your antenna mast/coax run(s) ground, and bond that(with ground clamps) electrode(ground rod) with a run of buried #6(or larger) wire to your main A/C service ground rod(on other side of house I assume).

Is this what I should use or do you recommend something else. Also I haven't installed a grounding block yet. I do have both antennas' coax cables protected by a Monster surge protector. Would a grounding block be redundant?
[800.21].

Surge suppresor(I assume you are talking about one that's indoors) won't do it. You need the grounding block for proper grounding of outer conductor of Coax(you can't ground the center conductor with a ground block, as then the ground would be the antenna). This is what NEC says about this :

"Radio and Television Equipment [Article 810]. The antenna mast that supports radio, HAM, television and satellite receiving antennas must be grounded [810.15]. In addition, each conductor (coaxial, control, and signal conductors) of a lead-in from an "outdoor antenna" must be provided with a listed antenna discharge unit (grounding block). The antenna discharge unit shall be grounded and it must be located outside or inside as near as practicable to the entrance of the conductors to the building and it must not be located near combustible material [810.20]. "

Also it would be easier for me to install the grounding block (if you recommend that I use one) at the antenna mast rather than where the cables enter my house.

That would seem fine to me[update] except that I probably wouldn't put it right "at" the antenna. Notice it says "as near as practicable" in NEC.

I could use the same ground wire that I'm using to ground the mast and the service entrance is at the opposite end of the house from where the coax cables enter the house. Any advice is very much appreciated.

Keep in mind, To meet NEC(for good reason - soil conductivity, can differ greatly(meaning 1,000's of Volts difference in ground potential possible) between "ground rods", you need to bond the grounds(including if any "seperate" ground electrodes(ground rods) are used) to your main Utility service ground with #6 AWG(or larger).

For my TV antennas/sat dish Since my antennas+tower(and where coax enters house) is on other side of house from A/C service ground, what I did is use a couple of ground rods on the "antenna side" of house(for the coax grounds/"mast" grounds for antennas+coax from LNB on sat dish/etc) and ran(and buried) a #4 AWG wire to the A/C service ground on other side of house.

Of course, in my case the Tower itself(the "mast" in this case - which is made of galvanized steel) the antennas(not the sat dish) are on is pretty well grounded as is, being in 4ft concrete base, but nevertheless I have ground rod bonded to the tower legs and ground clamp(s) that bonds it to the #4 wire that goes to A/C service ground as well. I also have a bit of welder's wire with ground clamps on mast just above rotor to hopefully protect it a bit, especially as I have hard rubber "stand off's(big washers really" as "shock abosorbers" to perhaps help a bit with windload issues where the rotor bolts to the tower.

Anyhow, Here's a little more info concerning importance of bonding all your grounds to main utility service ground from NEC :

"Any grounding electrode added for communications systems is required to be bonded with a 6 AWG or larger conductor to the building or structure grounding electrode system in accordance with 800.40(D), 810.21(J), 820.40(D), and 830.40(D).

The grounding of power and communications systems to the same single point ground helps in reducing the difference in voltage potentials between the systems. This becomes very important where these different systems are integrated together in sensitive and expensive electronic equipment. "

Also, be sure to check this link out, which goes into more detail(and explains it better than I can) concerning good grounding practices(and meeting NEC) :

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/GB-HTML/HTML/2002NECGroundingCommunicationsSystems~20020701.htm

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Personally, I think proper grounding is a must ... For a couple of main reasons ...

#1). On an everyday basis, wind blows small dust particles "across" the mast, without proper grounding, a static charge builds up in your feedline - which is probably not so great a thing for your tuner -- If you've ever disconnected a F-connector from a TV with an ungrounded antenna system, you'll know what I'm talking about (you'll probably get more of a shock than shuffling across a carpet in winter and grabbing onto a door knob!

#2). If lightning DOES strike your antenna(or near it), the charge will take the CLOSEST path to ground ... This SHOULD be via your ground system, but if it isn't grounded, the closest ground will probably be through your coax into the A/C Plug on your TV(after the charge enters your TV via antenna input, then through power supply(and other TV "parts" it's likely to damage) and out to your A/C wires .....

#3). while it is true that antenna is no more of a "lightning attractor" than a nearby tree, or your roof, or cable TV lines running on telephone poles/etc ....;. Some say that proper grounding should make your antenna "less attractive" to lightning strikes, but I'm not sure if I buy that. Whatever the "charge" (positive or negative) in the sky, Lightning is going to seek closest path to a opposite charge on the "ground" side ... Whether this tree, or that tree or your roof or your antenna is the "opposite potential(+ or -) for the charge" at any given time is, I think going to be an unknown thing ...

dusterscott

09-09-05, 08:10 PM

Thanks for the help Jeff. Could I run the ground wire from the grounding block to the antenna mast and then run the ground wire from the mast to the service ground (shared ground wire)?

Nitewatchman

09-09-05, 08:39 PM

Scott,

Sure you can do that or something similiar -- such as runing a "seperate" ground wire from ground block(s) to the mast ground wire(bonding it properly of course). BTW, you can pick up ground blocks that accomodate 1 or 2 coax runs at Lowe's for a couple of bucks. If the service ground is on the other side of house, I'd still run a seperate ground rod for your mast/Coax ground wire(s) on the "mast" side of the house +run(you can bury it) #6 wire to bond that to the main utility service ground.

Here's a good page from Cinergy describing proper bonding of grounds to main A/C service ground and why you need to do it -- especially note figure 2(the little "dots" are ground rods - Just substitute "ANT" for CATV(yes, it's just as important that cable TV and phone lines be properly grounded as well ) :

http://www.cinergypsi.com/Exploring_Energy/Power_Quality/tech_tip_eight.asp

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Oh -- Thinking about one of my responses in last post it a bit more, though, I probably wouldn't put the ground block for coax right "at" the antenna if possible, just as near as is "practiciable" to where the coax enters the house ...

dusterscott

09-09-05, 08:45 PM

Jeff,

My antennas are on a ten foot pole at the peak of my roof, mounted on a tri-pod. It's the same distance to either gable end but the cables enter at the north end of my house and the service as at the south end. I was hoping I could just run one ground wire from the antenna to the service.

Nitewatchman

09-09-05, 09:00 PM

Scott,

Well, it's really up to you .... I'd think Doing it that way is certianly better than no ground at all, or not bonding it to main A/C service ground, and I'm sure you'll find many much more "improperly" grounded cable TV and sat dishes/phone lines/antennas put in by so called "pro installers".

I don't know what would be "better" ... seems like the way you want to do it would be better for the Mast ground, but not as good for the Coax ground given NEC ...

I did misunderstand you a bit at first, concerning the Coax coming in on the other side of house from service ground ....

I dunno, but how you want to do it for the coax grounds doesn't perhaps quite seem "close as practical" to where coax enters house to me!" "Close as is convienient is another matter ;)

For instance .... What happens if lightning strikes the side of your house where coax enters -- IF the charge gets into the coax what's the closest path to ground it will take? Through the Coax through your TV+then through the A/C wires in your house to ground,, or "back" through the ground block to A/C service ground, which is what you WANT to happen, but .... ?

Perhaps you could do it the way you are planning for now, and if you want a little more "extra protection" later on, add ground for the coax runs near where it enters house(on other side of house) (and bond that to A/C service ground) at some "later" time ... Or, another option if possible, change to coax runs to enter on other side of house - which would be "preferred" for grounding purposes, but of course not necessarily for having shortest coax run+lowest signal loss - or for safety, as you don't want them "too close" to utility lines.

dusterscott

09-09-05, 09:16 PM

Yeah, I'd hate to have to run a ground wire from a grounding rod at the end of the house where my cables enter, all the way to the other end of the house where the service is. That's a lot of digging. Maybe I should consider using two grounding blocks; one at the antenna mast and one where the cables enter the house). I have a grounding rod that I could drive into the ground at the north end of my house.

Nitewatchman

09-09-05, 09:29 PM

Scott,

You'd still want to bond that 2nd ground rod with the Main A/C service ground ... Does seem like a lot of work just for the coax grounds, But ......

I think I've close to mastered the "digging" part having ran buried ground radials for vertically polarized HF Ham antennas (which are some LONG radials on low HF Ham bands! Just imagine what it's like for AM broadcasters which sometimes bury hundreds of ground radials for their transmitting antenna !) ......

You don't really have to "dig" ...... Using a spade with a "flat" end on it can work nicely, you just have to "lift up" about 2~3 inches of ground just enough to "slide" the wire in underneath it, and then "flatten down" the soil ... works best when soil is moist, you'll still probably get blisters after 50 feet or so if the ground is rock hard .....

chazcron

09-09-05, 09:33 PM

I must be CPO Brain(scanline)washed. No antenna, no built in tuner. TWCinci owns TWDayton now. I get both SD affiliates, so eventually (maybe) they'll pass thru Dayton ABC.

OH well, sorry to interject a little false hope.

Sea Ray

09-09-05, 09:38 PM

Oh I agree, I'm just not seeing "jaggies" problems on the analog ... Color(especially) and black levels seem off to me from WCPO analog .... I suppose it *might* look better color wise much of the time with a display that's "pushing red" ... Then again, I often notice the same thing from ESPN (SD via E*) during live sports ....

Also, it looks to me lke in Cincinnati it's not just WCPO that seems to have a different sort of NTSC "look" to it ... For instance, WLWT analog seems on the "dark" side to me, gamma wise. Especially during NBC programming - look at it during Leno or Conan and compare to WLWT-DT for instance, or even WDTN 2 Analog Dayton, or WLEX Lex, or WAVE 3 --, and WKRC analog looks especially "soft" during local news stuff (so do their upconverts all the time - at least the "color" and gamma/black levels seem about the same on WKRC/WKRC-DT during upconverts, though) ....

It's interesting how much the different channels vary in terms of color, gamma, sharpness etc. It makes it challenging when deciding whether one's digital TV is calibrated properly. You kind of have to get the calibration that works best for most of the stations you tend to frequent.

I find WKRC to be soft and kind of dark when compared to WCPO which is very bright. If not for the jaggie issue it'd be a wonderful digital picture on my native 720p set. The darker pictures tend to accentuate reds while the brighter ones push greens. I find it best to adjust your set to give the best picture on staged shots like news studios where the lighting and colors are controlled as opposed to a shadowy satellite feed from the hurricane or Iraq.

CincyKev

09-09-05, 10:18 PM

I'm not sure that they've even diagnosed the problem yet and that's disturbing to me, their customer. I understand money issues and all but it's been over a year and still no indication that any progress has been made on it at all.
[snip]

Has anyone considered contacting the ABC national offices, or the NFL? Surely neither of them would be happy to hear that the Cincinnati ABC affiliate has been broadcasting a greatly inferior HD signal for over a year. I suppose another option would be to contact local companies that buy commercial time on WCPO, and let them know that you watch the Dayton ABC channel instead of Cincinnati because of the awful HD signal broadcast by WCPO. Perhaps if WCPO receives queries from one or all of the above, they might take it a little more seriously.

CincyKev

Nitewatchman

09-10-05, 12:29 AM

I must be CPO Brain(scanline)washed.

Don't feel bad, it's done that to me as well, except in a different way, as after looking at their mess, I now "notice" every little hint of interlace artifacts from other sources(even on plain ol' analog TV's), and that is something that never bothered me before.

Sea Ray

09-10-05, 07:41 PM

Once again, the jaggie issue was evident on today's game on WCPO (Iowa/Iowa St). I am referring the WCPO-DT (not HD) feed. The scores run at the bottom of the screen looked particularly atrocious. Just for the record I first noticed this non-HD clarity problem last year in November. This is what I posted on this forum(post #1568):

I want to add one more chapter to the jaggie saga. Has anyone mentioned yesterday's Big game between the Buckeyes and the Michigan? The jaggie problem in this non-HD broadcast was evident. On my HD TV the digital channel showed the usual jaggies that we've been seeing for months now. This further cuts down on the sharpness of the picture which already is struggling due to the lack of HD clarity.

In 2003 I was very impressed with ch 9's non-HD digital picture. It rivaled some lower quality HD feeds but something changed last fall and it remains that way now.

Anyone else see this game today?

Nitewatchman

09-10-05, 09:46 PM

Once again, the jaggie issue was evident on today's game on WCPO (Iowa/Iowa St). I am referring the WCPO-DT (not HD) feed. The scores run at the bottom of the screen looked particularly atrocious......

it remains that way now.

Anyone else see this game today?

I didn't get a chance to check out that game, but just did a comparison between WCPO-DT and WKEF-DT during the non-HD OSU game, as I have many times in the past year.

Unlike what would be the case if it was HD, I am not seeing any apprecaible difference in "jaggies" between the two stations[update : if there is any difference, it seems awfully hard to tell it with this source material anyway]. Same thing with the analog stations. Looks pretty much like your standard, everyday interlace artifacts to me, but perhaps a bit worse than usual from both ABC stations. PQ for a SD production overall doesn't look all that great to me either, But, it is perhaps a bit better PQ than what I remember from some of last year's ABC SD college football. Seems like many years ago, SD college football had much better PQ from ABC overall than has been the case the past several years.

Update: I do see some "sporadic looking" extra "noise" occasionally on the scores running across the bottom of screen on WCPO-DT that aren't there on WKEF-DT or wcpo analog. I wouldn't call them "jaggies" though, and I notice the same thing during local news graphics, or fine print in ads on WCPO-DT that isn't there on the analog. . [update of an update : I'm also seeing "flickering and shimmering", most apparent on the graphics - score bug in upper L.H. for instance on WCPO-DT that isn't there on WKEF-DT/WSYX-DT/etc.etc. The whole frame in fact seems to have the "jitters" occasionally, most noticably you can see the score bug actually "move" in a jittery fashion ... again, not happening on the other stations ... ]

Update #2: Of course, If WCPO-DT is passing though SD upconverts done at network level that are coming through on ABC's HD feed(doesn't appear to be the case currently), that will suffer the same problems "jaggie wise" as ABC HD ... It does during national upconverted SD commercials via ABC HD feed anyway ...

Update #3: Just checked WSYX-DT ABC Columbus as well. Getting same thing from them Interlace artifacts/jaggies wise as is the case from WCPO-DT+WKEF-DT.

Overall, WSYX-DT has the best PQ(as usual for their Upconverts), WKEF-DT is not much different -- Color looks right from both of those, while WCPO-DT is pushing green(as usual), but perhaps not as bad as their analog(as usual) .... WCPO-DT(and analog) also looks "mushier/murkier", as if it was lower Resolution than the other two ... Which IS very similiar to the difference in "unique pixel resolution" between ABC HD from WCPO-DT at 1280x360 unique pixel data and other ABC HD stations(such as WKEF-DT) at 1280x720 "unique pixels" ...

Also getting more NTSC composite video "rainbows" from WCPO-DT(such as the refs uniforms) that aren't there so noticably from WKEF-DT or WSYX-DT, or the analogs. I am also seeing some minor ghosting from only SOME of the cams apparent on all 3 stations. It's been especially noticable from a mid-field "Press box" wide shot.

So, I don't know. As I reported a couple of days ago, I did see a difference between WCPO analog and WCPO-DT "jaggies" during their local news, hard to say why that is(I can say it still wasn't anywhere near as bad as is the case on WCPO-DT during HD), but I'm just not seeing that currently - Including in comparisions with 2 other ABC digital, and one other ABC analog station.

Certianly, however I think PQ from WCPO-DT SD upconverts also has some serious problems these days ....

homersapien

09-11-05, 10:51 AM

I'm in Loveland using a Radio Shack roof antenna and the built in tuner on my 30" LG.

Question: I get significant audio synch issues on certain channels, 48 WCET for instance. Does anyone else experience this? Sometimes the audio will be (as near as I can tell) half to one second different than the video. At first I thought it may be the programming, because the synch will sometimes return when the programming changes, but then sometimes simply switching to a different channel and then switching back seems to help.

Any suggestions?

Nitewatchman

09-11-05, 12:00 PM

but then sometimes simply switching to a different channel and then switching back seems to help.

You've already covered above about the only suggestion I would have ... It has/does happen, but don't think I've noticed any local stations having any sync problems recently. Not that it hasn't happened when I'm not watching monitoring/etc ..

Update - funny thing -- just checked WCET-DT 48.1(PBS HD) and am currently getting a slight A/V sync issue(audio is slightly ahead of video) that isn't fixed by switching channels+back.

I think it's more often the case however that its just the decoder getting the audio/video streams out of sync.

I do have that happen as well occasionally, but it's been pretty rare for the most part+switching channels then back fixes it. Receivers in use or used here in past 4 years : Zenith HDV420(LG), RCA DTC-100, Hisense DB-2010(USDTV/walmart - ATI chipset), Internal tuner((I think it's ATI chipset) in Sony KD-34XBR960 HDTV. I don't think I've seen it happen on the Sony yet, but I've only had it a few months. It does seem to happen more on the Zenith than the others, and most often perhaps on either WCPO-DT(during SD upconverts) or WLWT-DT.

Sea Ray

09-11-05, 12:57 PM

Very detailed characterization of the various ABC pictures, Jeff. I will add this: The OSU game on WCPO-DT was much clearer than the earlier Iowa/Iowa St game. So that does tend to point towards a non-jaggie culprit.

As for pushing green, Jim Tressel's skin tone on the sideline especially seemed to push green, more so than anything else I noticed. I have no other source to compare to as I use TWC. Great input!

Nitewatchman

09-11-05, 01:26 PM

Sea Ray,

On WCPO pushing green ... OTA From just Cincinnati and Dayton I receive 21 analogs(some LP's) and 14 digital/HD stations, and WCPO is the ONLY one that is like that ... WLWT 5 analog is also the only one that is so dark gamma wise. I often get a chance to see stations from Lexington, Louisville, Columbus/etc. as well, and I don't see that on any of their stations either ..... And, it certianly didn't used to be like that with WCPO(analog 9 - especially during local news has allways been on the "bright side" of things though), but I'm not sure I can say it wasn't at any time before the studio move ... WOTH-LP 25 Cincy "sometimes" may go a little on the green side, but that may be more due to programming sources/"feeds"/Etc they are using ...

That's most notable on WCPO during ABC programming, and most syndicated programming(except maybe oprah) ... During local news, strangely enough WCPO 9 analog may still be a little on the green side, but is generally OK, while the Digital looks to me to perhaps be a bit on the Red side during the local news .... 9 news certianly DOES look much different since the studio move -- Up until I checked it a few days ago and saw the stuff I mentioned earlier, I had actually thought it looked very good, especially so on the DT, except for being slightly on the Red side of things, and perhaps a little too "bright" as well.

As we were discussing earlier, it's just really surprising to me how "different" Cincy 5,9+12 analogs look, especially since I don't see so much difference among NTSC "look" to any other stations I can think of .... And, if you were to adjust Brightness/contrast/Gamma so say, WLWT looks good, 19 analog would look really "dim", and you'd have "grey" for the deepest blacks ...

Of all the Cincy stations, WCVN/KET, seems to have the most "accurate" looking SD video to me, including the SD subs for KET1+2. For the most part, WCET, WSTR+WBQC seem along those lines as well. WHIO seems to also usually(but not allways) stand out in Dayton for most "accurate" looking SD video in the area. All those also of course vary at times depending upon the programming that is running - Luckily for the most part this stuff isn't an issue for HD, although, oddly enough, CBS HD from WKRC-DT seems to often be "slightly"(very slightly) on the green side comapared to CBS HD from WHIO-DT or WBNS-DT Columbus.

I'm not just noticing this stuff on one display, either. I have 3 HD displays, and several analog TV's, and I get the same things concerning the above on all those displays/different decoders/etc ...

Back to the game ... Why in the heck am I posting on AVS when I should be watching Football ..... Sunday just goes by too fast!

tim99

09-11-05, 02:21 PM

Towards the end it looked a little red to me :)

Jim Tressel's skin tone on the sideline especially seemed to push green . . .

JunkyardDogg

09-11-05, 09:57 PM

Anyone else not getting WLWT-DT Sunday night. I noticed that WCPO-DT has problem with text moving across the bottom of the screen, seems to go out of focus. I also noticed that WKRC and WHIO have problems with the fast motion during the tennis matches with the picture goint out of focus. WKRC also has more problems with fast motion because the picture breaks up.

Nitewatchman

09-11-05, 10:10 PM

Checked at 10pm, WLWT-DT is fine here.

dusterscott

09-11-05, 10:12 PM

I'm getting WLWT-DT here at 10:10. WHIO is not in HD at present. Other than that, I'm not seeing any other problems with Dayton/Cinci channels. I didn't watch tennis today so can't comment on that.

JunkyardDogg

09-11-05, 10:32 PM

Sorry about WLWT comment, seems TV was acting a little stupid. Anyways, I am now getting WDTN psip again, it only took 9 months!

Nitewatchman

09-11-05, 11:09 PM

No need to be sorry!

I can recall once wondering for two weeks why my FM reception on weaker stations had suddenly became so poor, until I finally noticed I had forgotten to hook up a connection in the attic to the antenna for the coax run from the receiver ....

APorter

09-12-05, 09:56 AM

Has anyone received a firewire activated box from TW. If so what box did you get?

digital only

09-12-05, 08:19 PM

I wonder if that means that Fox 19 will now publicly admit that they are broadcasting it. When I called them a couple of months ago. They wouldn't even talk about it.

I figured something was up concerning cable carriage since I noticed recently they just started running "commercials" on The Tube .. Fox 19 promos from what I've seen, plus occasionally a few PSA's from The Tube ....

As far as the bandwidth, yeah, it's pretty ugly(and sounds that way too) ... But, the way Fox HD splicer works, it shouldn't steal any bits from FOX HD. Better to have "The Tube" looking ugly than FOX HD looking ugly ...

Sorry for going "backwards", Just got arounding to reading some of the earlier posts since last night on last page ...

suburbmom

09-12-05, 08:45 PM

Thanks for providing such a wealth of information for those of us new to all this HD/DTV stuff!

I've read through a lot of posts and it sounds like things'll work best if I aim a larger antenna (like the RS VU75 or 90) towards local stations and something UHF only (like the RS #15-2160) towards Dayton. Everything goes straight into my Panasonic PD42PD50U (which is only the EDTV plasma). Unless anyone has other suggestions, that's what I'm planning. I do have a few questions:

Trees. Any tips for when your house is surrounded by 50 ft and higher trees? Do I need to put the antenna in the center of my roof where it's farthest from the trees? Or closest to where the coax cable will enter the house?

Am I crazy to think I can go OTA exclusively in this area (Montgomery, zip code 45242)? We currently only have lifeline cable and really don't think it's worth the extra $400+/year to upgrade to digital for as little TV viewing as we do. Would love to drop TWC once we get the antenna in place. Now that we've discovered there's a whole CETKids channel, I'm set.

What signal strengths can I expect? I'm currently using an indoor antenna and pulling in mostly 40-50%, except for some reason I pull 85% on Channel 5-1.

And where exactly does the pre-amp go? In the attic? I know this sounds like a stupid question, but I'm really confused. My DH is handy and can definitely handle the installation (and some electrical if needed) but it's my job to find out exactly what we need as he'll only do it once.

Thanks!

CincySaint

09-12-05, 10:18 PM

Anybody watching via TWC - WCPO-DT?

I keep getting picture freezes and switches back to SD. I don't know if the problem is ABC, WCPO, or TWC.

Kathy

09-12-05, 10:27 PM

Antenna Update - Well my 'on the roof' antenna installation is complete. The service was so disappointing, that I will try not to go on and on, only providing few more interesting stories.

The positive - Boy, Jeff, you were right, moving the antenna to the roof greatly improved reception. No more dropping HD signals on CBS or ABC. Actually receive FOX in HD too, and I haven't even tinkered with the remote. When I have a few spare moments I plan on trying the antenna signal strength on several channels, and hopefully can try to receive Dayton stations.

The negative - I took a day off of work the Friday before last to have this antenna installed. Partial install began at 4:30 that Friday, was to conclude the following day, but the installer never showed and never called.

The owner of the company, Meinke Electronics (Newtown) called me one week later to find out if they could finish the install on Saturday. He said they were so busy that he was sorry it took him a week to get back with me. He gave me his cell phone number to call in case his installer didn't arrive by 3 p.m. No call, so I had to contact the owner; the return call said the installer would be there by 4:15 p.m., some 30 minutes away. After I initiated a call to the installer he arrived around 6 p.m. Don't you just love waiting around for service???

I personally pulled cable from the TV area to an outside wall, something the installer said would take him too long. The installer said he was planning on twisting the connecting wires together & taping them, but if I had wire nuts or connectors & a crimper for him to use, he would connect that way. Thank G-- I had all the above, and provided them to him. Since when is it up to the customer to provide the supplies for an installation? Interesting.

Then he shuffles his way upstairs to have me test the rotator. Opens a door I never use, knocks some stuff off my door on the floor and never bothers to put them back where they were. Now I could use some nice adjetives, but what's the point.

I wrote the check for $674 and happily sent him on his way. I am sitting here watching beautiful HD football.

It is so amazing to me that local Cincinnati companies do not value the power of the forums' word of mouth. I would have sung this companies praises if only they would have done a good job. I have received several PMs asking for my experience with this local antenna installer. Obviously, they do not need the business given their customer service. Too bad.

Back to the Monday Night Football game.

Nitewatchman

09-13-05, 12:02 AM

I've read through a lot of posts and it sounds like things'll work best if I aim a larger antenna (like the RS VU75 or 90) towards local stations and something UHF only (like the RS #15-2160) towards Dayton.

Sounds like you are on the right track. You might want to go with a little better UHF antenna for Dayton though(especially for the higher UHF channels, where 3 of the Datyon stations are), Such as CM4221 - which is same price at RS Cat#15-2160 here :

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=3&CAT=&PROD=SCM4221A

Keep in mind, you'll want to run seperate coax runs for your Dayton+Cincinnati antennas and use a A/B switch placed near your TV to switch between them. Otherwise, if you try to combine them both on same feedline, (this isn't quite technically accurate but in interest of shortness), "bad" portions of signal off the back or side of the Dayton(or Cincinnati) antenna will likely be mixed in with the Good signals(off either Dayton or Cincinnati antenna) and will likely cause problems -- Perhaps not all the time, but more likely when multipath conditions change. Aircraft flying over and reflecting signals, wind blowing tree limbs around/etc/etc, leaves off trees instead of on can all change multipath conditions.

You can purchase a "manual" A/B switch for a few bucks at lowe's(and maybe find one at Walmart, meijer/etc/etc), or this one with a remote control from Radio shack :

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F010%5F011%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D1968

Note: I know you said you would only want to do this "once" - and probably makes sense to run both coax runs at same time, however I would try both Dayton+Cincinnati reception with the "first" antenna you buy via "manual rotation" before installing the 2nd antenna. Also probably a good idea to "test" your reception first(from both Cincy+Dayton) before deciding on a permanent spot to mount your antenna(s) -- I realize you've probably already got a spot in mind, but checking it first before mounting antenna(s) permanently is often a good idea. If you can, when first checking/testing your reception Moving antenna around a bit(sideways, back+forth/etc - Not just how it's "aimed" ) to find a good place for good reception is often a good idea, as there can often be "hot spots" and "cold spots" for signals. An, you might find the best "spots" for reception where you can mount antennas may be entirely different spots for Cincinnati/Dayton. A really "knowledgeable" professional installer with the right tools/equipment would come out and do a site test + do something similar with a small antenna, spectrum analyzer($$$$) and/or signal meter.

Update: Oh yeah ... I did notice that although most of the Cincinnati stations broadcast from near downtown, and those should work on one antenna heading from your location, but -- there is as much as a 60 degree spread for you between WSTR(WB/WB HD In Finneytown), and WCVN(In N KY). Hopefully, a antenna w/o rotor will work for all of them, but a rotor might be necessary if you want reception of ALL Cincy/ N KY stations. Rotor Definitely won't be necessary for "just" Dayton, as they're all on the same antenna "farm", just SW of Downtown Dayton.

If you haven't already done so, you might want to punch in your address at www.antennaweb.org it will show you direction+distance to towers+give a "general" recommendation concerning what "type" of antenna you should get - note that it generally is considered to be quite "conservative" with it's predictions. Also Note its info on WPTO-DT location is currently incorrect. WPTO-DT broadcasts off the same tower as WXIX-DT Fox Cincinnati, not from Oxford( Only Analog WPTO 14 currently broadcasts from Oxford) does as is indicated in the antennaweb info.

Everything goes straight into my Panasonic PD42PD50U (which is only the EDTV plasma). Unless anyone has other suggestions, that's what I'm planning.

I checked it and see that the Panny TH-42PD50U has a internal ATSC(for OTA digital reception - obviously of course since you are already using it!), so that should work fine.

Trees. Any tips for when your house is surrounded by 50 ft and higher trees? Do I need to put the antenna in the center of my roof where it's farthest from the trees? Or closest to where the coax cable will enter the house?

My house is the same, lots of trees. No real problems with reception from them though. Trees/leaves do attenuate signals a little - especially on the higher UHF channels. Also, when wind blows tree limbs around, or leaves being off or on can "change" the multipath conditions, which can be an issue for reception .... Terrain, Nearby terrain(such as a big hill you are at the bottom of on on the side of)in the signal path to towers however can be a real big problem for reception(much moreso than trees), especially on higher UHF channels(such as where 3 of the Dayton stations broadcast).

These issues are some of the reasons why "Testing" your reception before mounting the antenna permanently by moving it around to different spots on a "temporary mount" may be a good idea to make sure you put the antenna in a good spot "permanently".

If possible, it is usually a good idea to keep the coax run as short as possible(the longer the run, the more signal loss) -- Also, properly grounding the antenna mast+coax runs can be an issue involving where you put the antenna, and where you run the coax, especially since NEC says the grounds for the antenna mast+coax need to be bonded to your Main A/C service ground. Not a good idea of course to install an antenna near utility lines! See Dusterscott+I's recent conversation on proper grounding, as well the links I provided in those posts for info on properly grounding antenna system to NEC.

Am I crazy to think I can go OTA exclusively in this area (Montgomery, zip code 45242)?

Absolutely not. You should be in an excellent spot for OTA reception, and you should be able to receive both Dayton and Cincinnati stations fairly easily with decent outdoor antenna setup. It will probably run you somewhere between $150~200 or so for a "proper install" and for what you want to do with both Dayton+Cincinnati antennas, and it might take a little more "tweaking" the setup than what can be done in a single afternoon(which is about as long as it will probably take to actually "install" the antenna) --- but it's a permanent solution which will last at LEAST 15 years(barring disaster, knock on wood), probably MUCH longer. Think how much your cable bill would add up to in 15 years ....

What signal strengths can I expect? I'm currently using an indoor antenna and pulling in mostly 40-50%, except for some reason I pull 85% on Channel 5-1.

What sort of antenna are you using currently?

Keep in mind, Most of those meters on digital receivers don't actually tell you a lot about actual signal strength -- They're usually best thought of as "signal quality" meters, and other factors besides signal strength are taken into account - Multipath, interference/etc/etc. What they say really doesn't matter all that much, what matters is that you are getting perfect, reliable dropout free reception from all the station you want to receive.

I can tell you that here(I'm 27~39 miles from Cincy/NKY stations+12~14 miles From Dayton) with outdoor antennas+preamps/etc(and with signal split several times to go to different rooms, several different TV's, VCR's/receivers/etc) I get 85%~100% readings on All 14 Cincinnati/Dayton/N KY digital stations, and it takes between 23db~60db of extra attenuation added into feedline to get "down" to near threshold levels(still perfect reception, but a db or two less than that and the stations would not decode(or barely decode). For all but two stations it's between 35db+60db to get down to near threshold levels, for WCVN-DT+WSTR-DT the weakest stations "only" takes about 23~25db extra attenuation to get down to near "threshold" levels. For DTV, "Threshold" is about 16db(or so) Signal over noise, which If I recall correctly happens to be about 12db less than what is necessary for a "snow free" analog OTA picture.

And where exactly does the pre-amp go? In the attic? I know this sounds like a stupid question, but I'm really confused.

Not stupid at all(no stupid questions here!) --- Where it goes depends on what "kind" of preamp(s) you get. For antennas, It is usually best to have preamp as close to antenna as possible. That means it's usually best to use a quality, low noise mast mount preamp that goes outside, on the mast the antenna is mounted on. Low voltage/(low current) Power is supplied to mast-mount preamp via the coax coax and a "power inserter(power supply)" which goes in your house and plugs into a A/C socket. It doesn't matter where the power inserter goes, you just can't have something like a standard 2 way splitter(or anything else that doesn't pass current) installed between the preamp+it's power inserter, otherwise it would block the power the preamp needs.

Another type of amp -- a line-amp or "distribution amp" goes inside, and it's still best to put it as close to antenna as possible -- such as in attic. The purpose of any preamp is mainly to recover losses in the feedline(your coax run) and losses from any signal splitting you are doing. It can't "boost signal" the antenna is getting. A good, low noise, mast mount preamp can however lower the noise level the receiver "sees", and might improve VSWR(Voltage standing wave ratio) in some circumstances.

It is usually the case that the first "stage" of your receiver front end is usually "noiser" than a quality mast mount preamp such as CM7777(about a 2.5db NF(noise figure) -- unless the preamp is overloaded by strong signals then it may be closer to the other way around, whearas your reciever's noise figure could be anywhere from probably about 5db to 10db - more likely closer to the latter, which is quite a difference from 3db. In the case of a preamp with a lower noise figure than your receiver, it's the preamp that "sets" the overall NF of your entire antenna/receiver system, which can make for quite an improvement ...

Having went into that .... It is hard to say, but chances are VERY good a preamp would NOT be a good idea for your Cincinnati antenna(I show 45242 could be as close as 8 miles from some of the Cincinnati stations). I think I can safely say in fact that a preamp is NOT a good idea for you for Cincinnati. Preamps can easily be overloaded by strong signals, and can end up HURTING your reception more than helping. Very strong signals+preamp(even if it isn't terribly "overloaded") can also overload your receiver and cause problems.

Preamp *may* be a good idea for your Dayton antenna, however as hopefully with a seperate antenna aimed at Dayton, it will reject enough of the stronger signal from the Cincinnati stations off the side. BUT, again, you may not need it. I think it would be best to try it without a preamp first(and keep your feedline/coax run as short as possible), and then add one if necessary.

If you do add a mast-mount preamp for Dayton, probably best to try to find a good "mid-gain" preamp that is resistant to overload when strong signals are present, rather than a "hi-gain" preamp. CM7778, or Blonder-Tongue Suburban III would probably be good choices, so might the CM mast-mount preamp lowe's carries(can't recall the model # at present, but they only carrry one as discussed it in a earlier post concerning Jim Tressler's preamp questions. I think antennasdirect has a "mid-gain" preamp on their website which looks to have excellent specs as well, but I haven't heard any reports on it. Winegard makes some nice preamps as well, best to stay away from Radio-Shack's preamps as they are prone to easily overload and don't seem to have a low NF.

Follows are a couple of excellent sites with antenna info+info for DIY antenna installs. It usually isn't "rocket science"(and isn't generally as difficult as this post may make it sound), and can be done in a few hours on a weekend, but does sometimes require a bit of knowledge(It helps if you've done it before and have had some experience with antennas)+good planning for a proper install and if you can reasonably expect to achieve good reception :

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennadex.html

BTW, you'll also find great antenna info scattered about AVSforum in Antenna thread(sticky) in this(local info+reception) area, as well as excellent threads about antennas/etc in Hardware area.

Nitewatchman

09-13-05, 01:31 AM

When I have a few spare moments I plan on trying the antenna signal strength on several channels, and hopefully can try to receive Dayton stations.

Be sure to give us a report on how it goes. In addition to Dayton and all 8 Cincy/NKY HD/digital stations, I'd also be interested to know how your analog reception is on Cincinnati low power analogs on 25,38,61. In Cincinnati, WSTR-DT(WB HD) *SHOULD* be the only one the installer may have not been able to "do" anything about, given their directional antenna pattern which doesn't squirt much power in your direction ....

It is so amazing to me that local Cincinnati companies do not value the power of the forums' word of mouth. I would have sung this companies praises if only they would have done a good job. I have received several PMs asking for my experience with this local antenna installer. Obviously, they do not need the business given their customer service. Too bad.

Yes, hopefully, sooner or later we'll get a good report of a good, knowledgable+experienced OTA installer in the area. I think more folks in the area might utilize their OTA options if they can have a pro-installer(who knows what they are doing) do it for them.

I think some problems for those in that business are:

#1). Find "qualified" OTA installers who will do residental installs. That's probably the most important thing.
#2). it's difficult for them to make $ at it for "various reasons".
#3). Most folks seem to be happy sending their cableco or sat provider $50 a month, and don't seem to see the beneifit of using their OTA "option", whether or not they also use cable or satellite -- especially if a OTA install is going to cost them $600 - *. Certianly, just a drop in the bucket compared to oh, say 5 years of "digital cable" subscription bills, but .....
#4). And of course, many of us who DO use OTA, prefer to DIY (see #2) .....

* - Which may seem high, but really isn't unreasonable these days for a WELL DONE professional antenna install with rotor and perhaps preamp if necessary or desired ..... Although, it certianly could be cheaper. IF more folks were "interested", for instance, along with less-expensive installs, we might even see specialized antenna designs again such as the "Cincinnati-Dayton Special" antennas available in the 70's. ... These antennas were actually designed so you could aim one at Dayton , one at Cincinnati and combine them onto same feedline and receive all of the stations broadcasting at the time. They worked quite well. This was possible mostly because the elements on the antennas were specifically "cut" for all the Channels the stations were using at the time(and designed to work so you could aim one at Cincy+one at Dayton) -- You'll still see some of those on roofs around here, but they really only work well for the analogs on Ch 2,5,7,9,12,16,19,22,48.

jim tressler

09-13-05, 08:31 AM

did anyone catch wcpo last night.. the jaggies were in full effect... of course wkef looked great as usuall!!

bsherm

09-13-05, 08:35 AM

did anyone catch wcpo last night.. the jaggies were in full effect... of course wkef looked great as usuall!!
At least one thing is for sure, MNF should look great by 2006, since ABC won't have it.

dusterscott

09-13-05, 08:36 AM

I wrote the check for $674 and happily sent him on his way. I am sitting here watching beautiful HD football.

Man, I am definitely in the wrong business!

suburbmom

09-13-05, 09:28 AM

Thanks for the long response Nitewatchman! I'll definitely check out the other antenna for Dayton.

Keep in mind, you'll want to run seperate coax runs for your Dayton+Cincinnati antennas and use a A/B switch placed near your TV to switch between them.

Was already planning on doing this one.

I did notice that although most of the Cincinnati stations broadcast from near downtown, and those should work on one antenna heading from your location, but -- there is as much as a 60 degree spread for you between WSTR(WB/WB HD In Finneytown), and WCVN(In N KY). Hopefully, a antenna w/o rotor will work for all of them, but a rotor might be necessary if you want reception of ALL Cincy/ N KY stations.

I wasn't planning on a rotor, but already knew about the possible issues with WSTR. We haven't been able to pick up 64-1 at all, but I can't say I try to hard. I rarely watch WB shows, so I'll have to decide whether it's worth it.

Having went into that .... It is hard to say, but chances are VERY good a preamp would NOT be a good idea for your Cincinnati antenna(I show 45242 could be as close as 8 miles from some of the Cincinnati stations). I think I can safely say in fact that a preamp is NOT a good idea for you for Cincinnati. Preamps can easily be overloaded by strong signals, and can end up HURTING your reception more than helping. Very strong signals+preamp(even if it isn't terribly "overloaded") can also overload your receiver and cause problems.

I'd already checked things out on antennaweb a few days ago. We're 9.6-13.5 miles from the Cinci antennae. I never realized that the pre-amp could hurt if we were close. I guess we'll try the Dayton stations without a preamp as well and if it doesn't work add it in. We'll also be properly grounding everything. I'd bookmarked some info on this when I was reading through old posts on this thread. DH is handling that part and I'm confident he'll do it right.

What sort of antenna are you using currently?
We bought the weird looking Terk antenna on sale at RS just to test the TV out. Last night the conditions must have been just right because with some tweaking we managed over 80% signal strength on 12-1. CSI Miami never looked so good. This gives me hope that the right rooftop antenna will work well.

One last question. Previous owners of this house had a small satellite dish installed on the roof that was never taken down. Can I just leave it there or should we take it down to prevent interference? It is unlikely we would mount an antenna near the dish. Most likely 20' or more away.

I would love to hire an installer, but given Kathy's experience it just doens't seem like it's worth the money. Besides, any money not spent on installation of an antenna can just go towards something else! (Like a new surround sound system, but I digress...)

homersapien

09-13-05, 11:03 AM

You've already covered above about the only suggestion I would have ... It has/does happen, but don't think I've noticed any local stations having any sync problems recently. Not that it hasn't happened when I'm not watching monitoring/etc ..

Update - funny thing -- just checked WCET-DT 48.1(PBS HD) and am currently getting a slight A/V sync issue(audio is slightly ahead of video) that isn't fixed by switching channels+back.

I think it's more often the case however that its just the decoder getting the audio/video streams out of sync.

I do have that happen as well occasionally, but it's been pretty rare for the most part+switching channels then back fixes it. Receivers in use or used here in past 4 years : Zenith HDV420(LG), RCA DTC-100, Hisense DB-2010(USDTV/walmart - ATI chipset), Internal tuner((I think it's ATI chipset) in Sony KD-34XBR960 HDTV. I don't think I've seen it happen on the Sony yet, but I've only had it a few months. It does seem to happen more on the Zenith than the others, and most often perhaps on either WCPO-DT(during SD upconverts) or WLWT-DT.

Thanks for the reply. Did a bit more watching and PBS seems to just flat out not get along with my set. I get synch issues and the audio drops out completely, which requires switching to another channel and then back again. So far, PBS is the only channel giving me problems.

Nitewatchman

09-13-05, 11:09 AM

I wasn't planning on a rotor, but already knew about the possible issues with WSTR. We haven't been able to pick up 64-1 at all, but I can't say I try to hard. I rarely watch WB shows, so I'll have to decide whether it's worth it.

It should be much easier for you to receive when they increase power, which should happen per FCC "Use it or lose it"(portions of their service area) deadlines" for them by 7/06. The analog should come in should you want to watch their local/syndicated programming, but may be a little ghosty without a rotor.

Also, you should have a good shot at WBDT-DT 18, WB HD Dayton with your Dayton antenna. They have all WB HD+DD 5.1 just as WSTR-DT does.

I'd already checked things out on antennaweb a few days ago. We're 9.6-13.5 miles from the Cinci antennae. I never realized that the pre-amp could hurt if we were close.

Yes, what happens if there are too "much" strong signals around is the preamp/tuner can overload+spreads "intermod"/noise all over the place. Since preamps are very broadband, it isn't Just TV stations which can overload it, almost any "RF" from nearby transmitters(FM, Police radios/etc) can do it. IF you have a analog, non-screen muting TV(shows "snow" when there is no signal rather than muting the scree) You can sometimes see efffects from intermod, such as analog stations showing up not only on the channel they are supposed to be on, but others as well.

If that Terk antenna you have is "amplfied", it may even be overloaded and may be why you are getting some low "numbers" on some stations. The amplfiers in those sorts of "indoors antennas" are also usually not as "low noise" or as resistant to overload as High qality mast mount preamp. Unfortunetly, you can't just "unplug" the amplfier on an amplfied antenna, as the signals usually go through semi-conductors in the amp, and if it is unpowered, you'll get WAY less signal coming through than if the antenna wasn't amplified at all.

BTW, if you do get a preamp, most of them have selectable FM traps. It's usually a Very good idea to turn the FM trap "on"("IN" is the usual setting, sometimes you have to take the preamp apart to get to this "setting"), even if you are using it with a UHF only antenna.

I guess we'll try the Dayton stations without a preamp as well and if it doesn't work add it in.

I think that's probably a good idea, but My best guess is that a well chosen preamp will likely be a good idea and work well for You for your Dayton antenna. Given your location+that you'll be using a directional antenna, I expect your Dayton antenna should be able to "Reject" off the sides enough of the strong signals from the Cincinnati stations so they won't be an issue for preamp overload. None of the Dayton signals should be a "overload" problem from your distance.

We'll also be properly grounding everything. I'd bookmarked some info on this when I was reading through old posts on this thread. DH is handling that part and I'm confident he'll do it right.

Excellent! Sorry for "re-coving" some of that stuff! It's really great to have folks reading/researching the subjects they are interesting in in past posts/other threads+then asking questions ... It's one of the "best things" about AVS and is the "way to do it".

One last question. Previous owners of this house had a small satellite dish installed on the roof that was never taken down. Can I just leave it there or should we take it down to prevent interference? It is unlikely we would mount an antenna near the dish. Most likely 20' or more away.

Shouldn't be a problem, unless perhaps you aim the antenna at the same level and the satellite dish is right in the signal paths to towers. Otherwise, you can leave it. If it's desirable, you could probably use it's mast for OTA antenna mount, perhaps the coax run as well.

Which reminds me ... Concerning your "tree" question ... I forgot to mention, you really don't generally want any obstruction(including trees) within about 10 wavelentghs for the lowest frequency you'll be using directly "IN FRONT" of the antenna when it's aimed towards the towers -- So IF you can keep any obstructions(inlcuing trees) 30~50feet away in the direction the antenna will be aimed/or directions of the towers would be a good rule of thumb if you can achieve that. This is mostly because everything near the antenna becomes "connected" to it somewhat and effects it's performance.

Generally speaking, having any "obstrutions(such as trees, or chimneys or roof of your house) 5~6 feet(3 feet for UHF) away from back, bottom, side or "top" of antenna is more than far enough - but again that's just a rule of thumb. For instance, I have a CM4228 for Dayton antenna side mounted right to a steel tower and being several inches to a foot away from 3 tower legs and support braces/etc doesn't hurt it any. In fact, it receives WCPO-DT reliably most of the time off the BACK side of antenna.

Nitewatchman

09-13-05, 11:50 AM

Thanks for the reply. Did a bit more watching and PBS seems to just flat out not get along with my set. I get synch issues and the audio drops out completely, which requires switching to another channel and then back again. So far, PBS is the only channel giving me problems.

If it's WCET-DT 48.1 you are still talking about, It could also be that you may be seeing them working on things, or they may be having "issues" with their audio. It has been noted they have been "sporadic" the past 8 months or so about passing DD 5.1 audio when available from PBS HD, and as I noted I was seeing a slight sync problem from them sat or sunday afternoon which wasn't fixable by turning to another channel then back.

You could also try PBS HD from WCVN-DT/KET4 (54.4), (They transmit from a tower near TAylor Mill, KY approx 6 miles South of WCET) which runs PBS HD channel 8pm~11pm nightly. WPTO-DT(transmits off WXIX tower) also runs PBS HD(but on their own time-shifted schedule, off a server I would imagine) on Sat+Sunday nights 6pm~6am, WPTD-DT Dayton transmits PBS HD channel 6pm~6am nightly.

BTW, I think it was either Sunday evening or sometime yesterday that I noticed audio/video sync was off by about 1/2 second from "The tube"(19.2) on WXIX-DT(also not fixed by switching channels then back). They've also had occasional audio "glitches"(Once earlier this summer audio was missing for several days), more recently "glitches" involving times of missing audio replaced with odd "electronic digital" sounding noises which apparently seem to possibly have something to do with them switching in the local Fox 19 promos.

goheelz

09-13-05, 07:02 PM

Ouch! I had a much better experience from TNT pictures this past winter.
It cost me around $230 for mounting including the antenna. They offered to do a rotator for an extra charge which I turned down. Of course now I'm thinking I should have done it to get the dayton stations to get jaggie free sports.

Jeff

chrisirmo

09-13-05, 10:03 PM

Anybody watching via TWC - WCPO-DT?

I keep getting picture freezes and switches back to SD. I don't know if the problem is ABC, WCPO, or TWC.
Same thing here via TWC. I was too busy writing a letter in my head about the jaggies to really be bothered by it though :D

APorter

09-14-05, 09:42 AM

I can't wait for next Monday. My brother-in-law came over last night to help me fix my antenna. For some reason I was able to get all Dayton stations except WKEF. We did some tweaking and made sure all connections were tight and now I'll be watching Monday Night Football as it was meant to be watched.

Sea Ray

09-14-05, 09:43 AM

Same thing here via TWC. I was too busy writing a letter in my head about the jaggies to really be bothered by it though :D

I'm getting occasional picture freezes on a bunch of stations via TWC lately. Most recently last night during the Reds game on FoxSports. It's not enough to complain about yet but I'm keeping a close tab on it.

CincySports

09-14-05, 10:40 AM

Does anyone have a website that gives all the tv programming that is to be shown in HD for a particular day/week. I would like to see something like a TWC guide that has the HD channels, times, and if they are going to be broadcasted in HD or not.
Also both Football games on FOX last Sunday were in HD, but the CBS games were not; does anyone know if this will be the case throughout the whole season? The Bengals are supposed to be on FOX at 1 and I would really like to see them in HD.

I just found this great forum
Thanks for all the info,

dusterscott

09-14-05, 10:46 AM

This might help you somewhat...

http://www.hdsportsguide.com/

jim tressler

09-14-05, 10:48 AM

check out

www.hdsportsguide.com

does not list the locals but will list what events are in hd.. the bengals are hd this weekend and will be on fox19 - as long as they sold out!

Paul210

09-14-05, 10:49 AM

Does anyone have a website that gives all the tv programming that is to be shown in HD for a particular day/week.

Here is another one you can check:

http://www.hdtvgalaxy.com/broad.html

Welcome to AVS!

Paul

Sea Ray

09-14-05, 10:51 AM

Try this site:

http://cincinnatihdtv.com/Mambo/index.php

Fox has more HD capability than CBS. Most of the Fox games will be on HD this year but only what CBS deems the big games will be in HD. Maybe the end of the year will see our Bengals earning such respect...

Nitewatchman

09-14-05, 11:57 AM

Here's a couple more. Not alllways 100% accurate, but then none of them really are. You can set up daily emails with list of each Days HD from checkHD.

www.titantv.com

www.checkhd.com

As for Bengals HD on Fox this weekend, keep in mind Local affiliates(WXIX or WRGT) aren't allowed to air a Home game that's not sold out. Columbus/Lou+Lexington can air Bengals homes games, if you can pick them up OTA+they "decide" to air it. If it is a sellout, we'll get it from Fox HD+WXIX/WRGT. There's also packers at Bengals 10/30, the other Bengals game Fox has this season. I checked the NFL schedule on Foxsports.com +see Fox has 7 games that weekend, so while chances are good it will be HD from Fox, there's still a small chance it will be widescreen SD instead.

I think like last year, Fox is doing 5(or is it 6 now/etc?) games a week HD. When Fox has more than 5 games on any particular Sunday, the others are done in 480i 16x9 SD widescreen(upconverted to 720p at netwok level). Last week, the Panthers/Saints game was one that was SD widescreen(we got the last few seconds of this Game on WXIX-DT/WRGT-DT after the HD TB/Vikings game).

The 9/25(week 3) Bengals at Bears game is scheduled for HD from CBS. Houston at Cincy Week 4 is not. CBS hasn't announced which games beyond week 4 they'll have HD, and like last year we'll probably find out about the rest 2~3 weeks ahead. Hopefully we'll get more Bengals CBS HD games this year than was the case last year. Here is CBS NFL schedule where they list which games will be HD(this will get updated as season goes on) :

http://cbs.sportsline.com/cbssports/schedules/page/nfl

And Of course, the 10/9 Bengals at Jaguars ESPN game will be HD.

Sea Ray

09-14-05, 12:04 PM

So the end of the Saints game was not HD? Looked pretty good to me. How can you tell if it is HD or upconverted widescreen?

I wouldn't worry about this week's Bengal game being a sellout. It's the home opener, they're 1-0 and they set a new record for attendance this summer for their two preseason games. I'd be shocked if this game wasn't announced a sellout tomorrow.

Senger

09-14-05, 12:40 PM

The Bengals game is sold out. It's been sold out for months. I believe all the games are sell-outs. The only ones about which I'm not sure are the Colts and Bills games. The Bills game is on Christmas Eve, so I know I won't be going.

Nitewatchman

09-14-05, 12:41 PM

So the end of the Saints game was not HD? Looked pretty good to me. How can you tell if it is HD or upconverted widescreen?

One way I can tell by is the amount of visable detail - especially "background" details such as the turf, crowd shots etc. It did look good for Upconverted SD Sunday though, looked like component SD video to me, better than the Widescreen SD Fox baseball I've seen which appears more like upconverted composite video.

You can also check programming area, such as the current thread titled : "Saints vs. Panthers in HD? No." Here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=579381&highlight=Saints

For any future "full" games we might get in SD Widescreen from Fox, there won't be a "available in HD" banner at beginning, either.

I wouldn't worry about this week's Bengal game being a sellout. It's the home opener, they're 1-0 and they set a new record for attendance this summer for their two preseason games. I'd be shocked if this game wasn't announced a sellout tomorrow.

I'm not worried about it, I was just stating the facts. I do recall some folks were convinced the preseason home games were sellouts, which they weren't which is why the games were tape delayed+aired at 11:00pm in Dayton 11:30pm in Cincy, but aired live on WCMH Columbus(except the last game, as they ran a Hurricane telethon instead).

I do know in the past,(not so much last year) because games weren't sold out I had to watch it via Columbus or Lexington/Lousiville stations - when I could pull them in. During the first half of first ever Fox HD game from PBS last year, of course WXIX-DT took their transmitter off air as they had workers on the tower giving it a new paint job .... Luckily, WRGT-DT had the game HD throughout ... so there are allways those sorts of possible "issues" as well, and likely will be until more stations start giving a *amn about DTV/HD .....

CincySports

09-14-05, 12:42 PM

Thanks guys for the guides... Since getting all my HD gear hooked up over the weekend I almost refuse to watch anything in SD.
The Bengals are a sell out for Sunday and I am pretty sure that all the home games are very close to being sold out. Hopefully another good year and maybe we'll get another Monday Night game. I would rather stay home and watch HD then spending the big bucks down at PBS.

Nitewatchman

09-14-05, 01:24 PM

No Bengals MNF game scheduled this year. Last years Bengals MNF HD game looked awfully good on WKEF-DT Dayton, though -- They even took a little HD trip to Camp Washington Chili ...

It didn't look so good on WCPO-DT because of their "jaggies" issue ....

--------------------

If I recall correctly, Every Net that does football EXCEPT CBS has had a HD game from PBS ... I think ESPN was first in 2003-04 season, then we had MNF, FOX and ESPN HD games from PBS Last year ... Hopefully we'll cee a CBS HD Bengals home game this year, but I'm not counting on it ....

APorter

09-14-05, 01:52 PM

If you have TW cable and have the HD package the game at Jacksonville, Sunday night Oct. 9 will be in HD on ESPN.

Nitewatchman

09-14-05, 02:26 PM

Other providers have ESPNHD as well, such as E*(Dish Network) and D*(DirecTV).

Of course, Next Year all MNF games will be on ESPN HD, not ABC. NBC gets the Sunday night games, which if I recall correctly will be HD.

From my 11:57 am post:

And Of course, the 10/9 Bengals at Jaguars ESPN game will be HD.

Sea Ray

09-14-05, 03:31 PM

One way I can tell by is the amount of visable detail - especially "background" details such as the turf, crowd shots etc. It did look good for Upconverted SD Sunday though, looked like component SD video to me, better than the Widescreen SD Fox baseball I've seen which appears more like upconverted composite video.

Ok, makes sense.

Are the Saturday Fox baseball games of the week in HD generally or are they widescreen too?

jim tressler

09-14-05, 03:33 PM

Per the 2006 TV rights agreements with ESPN/CBS/FOX/NBC - all NFL games -even the crappy browns :) will be in hd :)

jim

NBC gets the Sunday night games, which if I recall correctly will be HD.:

Nitewatchman

09-14-05, 04:14 PM

Are the Saturday Fox baseball games of the week in HD generally or are they widescreen too?

All of those are Widescreen SD, again upconverted to 720p at net.

If I recall correctly Allstar game was the only one in HD ... If Fox had it this year, I don't recall -- I do remember FOX did an HD production for Allstar game in 2004, but it was before FOX went HD, and only a few Fox affiliates were capable of using the "special" HD feed they sent for it.

World Series was HD last year as well(I don't think most, if any division playoff games were HD, they were widescreen SD I think), I think it will be this year as well but haven't checked.

Fox also sends Widescreen SD(Not HD) for several other programs ... Such as "Fox News Sunday", "Cops", and a couple of the reality shows. Most of The Prime Time scripted shows(exceptions include 70's show/Simpsons/etc which are 4x3) and American Idol are HD.

They aren't the only network to do this, with upconversion to 720p or 1080i at Network level -- For instance many shows on PBS HD channel are widescreen SD(it will say either "widescreen" or "HD" at beginning of most shows), NBC sent several Nascar Races in 2004 widescreen SD(they have all been HD from either Fox or NBC this year - except for some SD cams, such as the wireless 4x3 SD from the cars), and you'll also see shots from widescreen SD cams in many HD sports productions from other networks as well.

Per the 2006 TV rights agreements with ESPN/CBS/FOX/NBC - all NFL games -even the crappy browns will be in hd

The amount of HD programming available even now is amazing compared to a few years ago.

NFL wise, -- Except for a few Superbowls, MNF HD in 1999(they didn't start doing MNF HD again until 2003-04), and If I recall correctly ESPNHD/Sunday night games starting in 2003(or was it 2002?) ---- NFL in HD didn't really get into first gear until last year.

From the perspective of someone who has been watching HD since 2001 -- Where amount of available HD programming is concerned, It's really came a long way very quickly .....

thedav1d

09-14-05, 10:39 PM

I just hooked up a Samsung SIR-T451 to my Time Warner Standard cable to get HD via QAM. I have found several channels, including ABC (107-2) and CBS (107-1), but I can't find FOX or NBC. Does anyone have a listing of the channel numbers? I did an IRC scan. I am hoping to get this setup in time for the Bengals vs. Vikings game Sunday on FOX.

Who-Dey

terryfoster

09-15-05, 07:44 AM

bearcatscott

09-15-05, 08:22 AM

Nitewatchman

09-15-05, 10:38 AM

I was going through my box of cables and wires and such last night and came across a powered amplifier I bought to boost the signal of my cable connection when I had it split a bunch of ways. I hooked it up to my OTA antenna to see if it would boost the signal to my HD receiver but alas it did not. It says on the amplifier that it works for signals between 50-450 Hz. Is this even the range HD OTA signals operate in?

Thanks,

Scott

50~450HZ no, but I'd bet you mean 50~450MHZ.

50~450MHZ Would Cover VHF(and therefore WCPO-DT 10), but not UHF(470~806MHZ) where all the rest of the local digital stations are.

Here's a handy "television frequency table" chart :

http://www.csgnetwork.com/tvfreqtable.html

jkeane

09-15-05, 03:49 PM

I am building a new house and am planning one equipment stack with audio and HDTV distributed throughout the house. In the stack, I was planning to have two Time Warner HD-DVR's. Can anyone tell me whether these can have different IR addresses for the remotes?

Thanks.

terryfoster

09-16-05, 08:27 AM

gerhard911

09-16-05, 09:39 AM

Terry,

I don't know if this will help you any but I was playing around in Diagnostics mode on my TW Pace HD decoder. The following digital channels are all marked "Clear to Air" in the Tuning paramerters section.

905 WLWT NBC
906 NBC Weather+
909 WCPO ABC
912 WKRC CBS
919 WXIX FOX
920 Tube
931 ITV
932 ITV
948 WCET HD
949 WCET
950 WCET KIDS
951 WCET YOU
952 WCET PLUS
954 KET1
955 KET2
956 KET3
957 KET4 HD

All other digital channels are marked as "Subscription".

I don't know how this relates to the digital channel/subchannel numbers you're trying to program into your tuner but here's the "Tune to" settings:

905 and 906 are shown on Frequency 585.000 with Program ID of 001 for 905 and 033 for 906.

919 and 920 are shown on Frequency 591.000 with Program ID of 002 for 919 and 028 for 920.

909 and 912 are shown on Frequency 693.000 with Program ID of 031 for 909 and 021 for 912.

Nitewatchman

09-16-05, 11:46 AM

Is it indeed FCC regulation that all local digital stations (if they carry them) must be delivered to the home unencrypted?

The current FCC regs say cableco's not degregulated per a FCC report and order must provide the signals from digital broadcast stations they are carrying on their lowest cost tier of service(lifeline/basic analog cable subscriptions/etc). That generally means unencrypted and via QAM. They don't have to provide the equipment necessary to "receive" them, nor is there any guarentee every manufactuer's QAM tuner will "work" for all stations on any given cable system. From reports I've seen for TW Dayton's service area(Dayton stations+WCET-DT), they do seem to tend to show up on odd channel numbers with user purchased QAM tuners.

For more info on the regs(including a link to the actual regs themselves) and discussion see here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6114384&&#post6114384

thedav1d

09-16-05, 04:19 PM

I'm calling Time Warner to complain that they are not sending FOX 19 "In The Clear" so that I can receive it via my QAM capable tuner in my HDTV. Is it indeed FCC regulation that all local digital stations (if they carry them) must be delivered to the home unencrypted?

Please correct any of my above statements and elaborate if you can as I will be talking to a "real" person at Time Warner Cable.

This is part of the response I just received from Time Warner when I asked about Fox 19 and unencrypted HD. "Although the channel may be encrypted, it can be found on QAM carrier 591 MHz program number 2, which is channel 85." I have tried channel 85 and I got a "no signal" message with my QAM tuner. It looks like they are encrypting it.

Nitewatchman

09-16-05, 04:52 PM

"Although the channel may be encrypted, it can be found on QAM carrier 591 MHz program number 2, which is channel 85." I have tried channel 85 and I got a "no signal" message with my QAM tuner. It looks like they are encrypting it.

So, trying 85.2 didn't work? Seems like it should find it via a auto scan anyway, though.

Seems like to me that :

#1). It shouldn't be encrypted if gerhard911's TW receiver is showing they are sending it in the clear, and #2). If it IS encrypted, and you are in the service area per WXIX+TW's carriage agreement - it seems to me that the way I "interpet them" anyway, they'd(TW) likely be violating FCC rules concerning cable carriage of digital broadcast stations.

I'd bet though there is just some sort of "hardware specific" issue going on with your(and possibly others) receiver models/firmware/software/etc, or some sort of "tuning issue" for them with some, or many "user supplied" QAM tuners that TW isn't aware of yet.

If you want to go through the hassle, IF you can detirmine with certianity that they in fact are encrypting it and not providing it on their most basic tier of service, or if you want to "inquire" how it is that it "may be encrypted" as they told you -- as if it were encrypyted it would seem to me to be a non-compliance issue with FCC rules :

You might want to call them and ask them how/if they are in compliance with following FCC rules from paragraph 102, Sec. VI - E.(pg 34) in FCC's First Report and Order(docket 98-120, FCC Document # 01-22) from 2001 concerning cable carriage of digital broadcast signals(their most recent rules on cable carriage of DTV stations) :

Begin quote :

102. We believe that in the context of the new digital carriage requirements, it is consistent with the statutory language to require that a broadcaster's digital signal must be available on a basic tier such that all broadcast signals are available to all cable subscribers at the lowest priced tier of service, as Congress envisioned. The basic service tier, including any broadcast signals carried, will continue to be under the jurisdiction of the local franchising authority, and as such, will be rate regulated if the local franchising authority has been certified under Section 623 of the Act. 309 We note, however, that if a cable system faces effective competition under one of the four statutory tests, and is deregulated pursuant to a Commission order, the cable operator is free to place a broadcaster's digital signal on upper tiers of service or on a separate digital service tier."

:end quote

The entire report and order is available here:

http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Cable/Orders/2001/fcc01022.pdf

If they aren't in fact in compliance with this rule(and I am certianly not saying they aren't, I don't know - might still be a hardware related or other technical issue involved - again, I'm thinking that is actually the case if it shows up as "in the clear" on TW boxes) you might also want to ask them why not, and what they will be doing to come into compliance with the rule. The only way I can think of that they could be in compliance IF they were encrypting WXIX-DT is if FCC has issued an order concerning TW in your service area which has found them to face "effective competition" in the marketplace+thus deregulated them. I don't believe that is the case, but If the commission has issued such an order for your local cableco, it is a matter of public record and TW should be able to refer you to it/tell you the FCC file number/etc. for that document/etc.

If they aren't cooperative, your other possible course of action is to contact FCC about the issue. To have any sort of shot of them addressing the issue you will likely need to provide detailed evidence that they are having a problem/are not in compliance as well as evidence you've first contacted TW about the issue+tried to resolve it with them without any success, as well as provide them with your contact info. I think they generally expect that you try to work it out with the cableco/provider(or station in case of OTA FCC rules regarding OTA broadcast) first before going to FCC.

How the rules are "interpeted" by TW Cincy could, I suppose be a possible issue -- For example, I interpet "all broadcast signals" per the rule as including any multicast streams they are carrying from that station as well. I don't know(and I personally don't think the following would be in compliance with the rules), But, for instance a cableco might have some at least shaky ground to stand on(perhaps also depending upon their agreement for carriage with the station) if they for instance, provided "The Tube", ,a SD multicast stream from WXIX-DT as unencryped via QAM and WXIX-DT primary service/FOX HD as encrypted.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Or, instead of messing with all that hassle, which may not get you anywhere anyway, you might want to use an antenna with your Samsung 451(I think that's what you said you had -- It does OTA HD/ATSC/8VSB as well as QAM) and pick up WXIX-DT/FOX HD Over-the-air(OTA) for Free.

jim tressler

09-16-05, 06:34 PM

you can also contact icrc - www.icrctv.com they are the cable watchdog that you pay fees to

jim

APorter

09-16-05, 09:02 PM

Well I see I'm not the only person having a problem with TW today. I called to request a cable box that had a firewire port activated and was told that they don't have any and don't have to do anything to get me one. I'm going to go try and find the FCC regulation regarding firewire boxes to read.

microbob

09-16-05, 09:46 PM

I was watching Threshold on WKRC-DT tonight and it just went off after the first commercial break. I am getting a strong signal but nothing.

dusterscott

09-16-05, 09:59 PM

No problems here at 10:00.

microbob

09-16-05, 10:10 PM

Yep it came back up right around 9:50PM. Strange...

Nitewatchman

09-16-05, 11:13 PM

I'm going to go try and find the FCC regulation regarding firewire boxes to read.

I haven't followed this one much so I don't know for sure if anything has changed since that Regulation was put into effect(went info effect in April 2004). These things can be changed and rescinded/etc, so you may want to make sure that hasn't happened.

It can get a little difficult digging up stuff on FCC site, and figuring out "what is what" so here is what I found on it in case you didn't run into much luck :

Here is the news release concerning the FCC report and order which required cableco's to provide (on request) functional 1394 "firewire" connectors for their HD STB's :

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-238850A1.pdf

Near top of page 3 of the news release at above link it says :

quote :

High-definition set-top boxes - Starting April 1, 2004, cable operators must supply, upon request, high-definition set-top boxes with functional 1394 “firewire” connectors. By July 1, 2005, all high-definition set-top boxes would also require a digital visual interface ("DVI") or a high definition multimedia interface ("HDMI").

:end quote

Here is the Actual Report and Order itself -- FCC Document 03-225 - "Second Report and Order and Second Further notice of proposed rulemaking", In the Matter of: Implementation of Section 304 of the Telecommunications Act of 1996
Commercial Availability of Navigation Devices, Compatibility Between Cable Systems and Consumer Electronics Equipment", adopted 9/10/03 by the commission :

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-03-225A1.pdf

Follows(with footnotes+references to footnotes removed) is I think the most "Relevant" portion from The Report and Order, concerning the requirement for cableco's to provide Firewire enabled Boxes to customers who request them. This is in III. D. Paragraph 24 -- on page 12~13. Note that it does talk about the possibility of waivers for smaller cablecos/etc later on, so you should probably check out more of Section D. Note that I've bolded an especially important part near the end of the paragraph ....

:quote

D. High Definition Set-Top Boxes
24. Cable subscribers owning unidirectional digital cable televisions or DTV
monitors that wish to receive advanced, interactive services will need a separate set-top box in order to do so. As a means of ensuring the connectivity of these devices, the proposed rules would obligate all cable operators, effective December 31, 2003, to replace or upgrade subscriber-leased high definition set-top boxes upon subscriber request to ensure that such boxes have “functional” 1394 interfaces. For these purposes, a “functional” 1394 means a 1394 interface with appropriate software support. Starting July 1, 2005, all high definition set-top boxes acquired by cable operators for distribution to subscribers would need to include a 1394 interface and either a Digital Visual Interface (“DVI”) or High Definition Multimedia Interface (“HDMI”). High definition set-top boxes provided to subscribers pursuant to these deadlines would also need to comply with certain technical standards. No comments were received objecting to these proposals. We believe that these interface and technical requirements will set a baseline for connectivity ensuring that cable subscribers are able to fully enjoy the range of services offered by their cable provider in a secure, digital format. As such, we adopt these high definition set-top box obligations and defer the December 31, 2003 obligation to April 1, 2004.

:end quote
--------------------------------

These Documents are also available in Word Doc format, from the links under the "10/9/03, 9/10/03 dates titled "FCC Eases Digital TV Transition for Consumers." At the following page :

http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/

MOST but not all FCC Documents concerning, or related to DTV transistion(inlcluding rulemaking documents) are also available for Download from that same page in PDF or Word Doc format.

Another note :

By the way, I hadn't spent much time "studying" this specific Report and Order before, but I also noticed in paragraph 23 it requires Cableco's to also carry PSIP data as it is provided by the content provider(station in this case). Here is what it says in a portion of paragraph 23 :

:quote

" .... As a result, we hereby adopt those PSIP obligations that will
ensure that cable operators carry PSIP data when received from content providers in conformity with the ATSC A/65B standard..... "

:end quote

Shouldn't that mean QAM tuners which support PSIP should also be "working" with a stations PSIP channel remapping(and EPG/etc), provided they send the proper PSIP VCT for Cable ? From what I recall of studying A65B PSIP "white paper" from ATSC, I believe they are seperate VCT for cable and OTA, or Can be "seperate".

By the way, there's quite a bit of other stuff in this Report and Order related to cableco's and "digital cable" (transmission system, Copy protection, Plug and play/etc/etc) which may interest some folks, especially those using cable for HD.

cokebear

09-17-05, 12:07 AM

This is part of the response I just received from Time Warner when I asked about Fox 19 and unencrypted HD. "Although the channel may be encrypted, it can be found on QAM carrier 591 MHz program number 2, which is channel 85." I have tried channel 85 and I got a "no signal" message with my QAM tuner. It looks like they are encrypting it.

I may be able to help shed some light on this tomorrow as TW should be installing my cable in the morning and I plan on making them supply my TV's tuner as well as the cable box. I have the Hitachi 50v715 we'll see what its QAM tuner comes up with.

Nitewatchman

09-17-05, 01:28 AM

I should Note that in my recent posts, I've been referring to various FCC rules as they were first either enacted or clarified concerning their applicability to digital TV by the commission through various rulemaking documents(Report and order/etc).

However, The FCC RULES as written(and modified), and as Broadcast stations and Cable operators "use" them, and refer to them are codified in Part 75 rules for Broadcast stations and Part 76 rules for Multichannel video and cable television services.

These rules and any rule changes are published in Federal register. Here is a site that currently has a seemingly very updated version of all FCC rules, this page indexes all FCC rules by part # :

http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2005/

For instance Aporter is interested in a portion of section 76.640 :

http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2005/76/640/

Here is the applicable portion of Sec. 76.640 he is interested in :

From Sec. 76.640 , subsection 4 :

quote:

(4) Cable operators shall:

(i) Effective April 1, 2004, upon request of a customer, replace any
leased high definition set-top box, which does not include a
functional IEEE 1394 interface, with one that includes a functional
IEEE 1394 interface or upgrade the customer's set-top box by download
or other means to ensure that the IEEE 1394 interface is functional.

(ii) Effective July 1, 2005, include both a DVI or HDMI interface and
an IEEE 1394 interface on all high definition set-top boxes acquired
by a cable operator for distribution to customers.

(iii) Ensure that these cable operator-provided high definition
set-top boxes shall comply with ANSI/SCTE 26 2001 (formerly DVS 194):
"Home Digital Network Interface Specification with Copy Protection"
(incorporated by reference, see Sec. 76.602), with transmission of
bit-mapped graphics optional, and shall support the CEA-931-A: "Remote
Control Command Pass-through Standard for Home Networking"
(incorporated by reference, see Sec. 76.602), pass through control
commands: tune function, mute function, and restore volume function.
In addition these boxes shall support the power control commands
(power on, power off, and status inquiry) defined in A/VC Digital
Interface Command Set General Specification Version 4.0 (as referenced
in ANSI/SCTE 26 2001 (formerly DVS 194): "Home Digital Network
Interface Specification with Copy Protection" (incorporated by
reference, see Sec. 76.602)).

:end quote

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Concerning the requirement for cablecos to provide all digital broadcast signals they carry to all cable subscribers(including lowest cost tier of service), and concerning what it says in the Report and order I referenced earlier about this, I believe(I can't find anything elsewhere in the part 76 rules that seems to apply to this) the following portions of section 76.56 apply to either Analog or digital stations carried by the cableco :

From Section 76.56 "Signal Carriage Obligations", Subpart (d) :

:quote

(d) Availability of signals. (1) Local commercial television stations
carried in fulfillment of the requirements of this section shall be
provided to every subscriber of a cable system. Such signals shall be
viewable via cable on all television receivers of a subscriber which
are connected to a cable system by a cable operator or for which a
cable operator provides a connection.

(2) Qualified local NCE television stations carried in fulfillment of
the carriage obligations of a cable operator under this section shall
be available to every subscriber as part of the cable system's lowest
priced service tier that includes the retransmission of local
commercial television broadcast signals.

(e) Carriage of additional broadcast television signals on such system
shall be at the discretion of the cable operator, subject to the
retransmission consent rules, Sec. 76.64. A cable system may also carry
any ancillary or other transmission contained in the broadcast
television signal.

:end quote

Note that the 2001 Report and order concerning cable carriage of Digital broadcast stations I provided info on here : post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6204266&&#post6204266 ) earlier does contain info on the part 76 rule changes implemented via this report and order, in its appendix D.

Per the info from paragraph 102 of that R&O which I provided in that post, which itself seems to clarify that the signal carriage requirements outlined in sec 76.56 (d)(1) and (d)(2)shown above refer to digital stations as well as analog : Obviously FCC did not feel it was necessary to actually modify the "wording" of sec 76.56 (d)(1)+(d)(2)as shown above to "clarify" they were referring to both analog and digital broadcast stations carried by the cableco.

However, I think It is certianly understandable how a cableco might "interpet" these rules differently as codified in the Part 76.56 rules concerning their signal carriage obligations for digital broadcast stations, especially if they are not seeing the additional clarifcation on it in paragraph 102 of the report and order mentioned above. So, Perhaps FCC DOES needs to clarify this a little better in the actual Part 76 rules. For instance, there is no way a NTSC only "cable ready" Television receiver is going to produce "viewable" signals from digital television station ....

tim99

09-17-05, 04:20 AM

Same thing here. I didn't see it live but my HD Tivo recorded green blocks for about 5 minutes or so after the first commercial break then at least some audio and but no video until about 9:50 or so.

peace . . .

Yep it came back up right around 9:50PM. Strange...

cokebear

09-17-05, 01:21 PM

This is part of the response I just received from Time Warner when I asked about Fox 19 and unencrypted HD. "Although the channel may be encrypted, it can be found on QAM carrier 591 MHz program number 2, which is channel 85." I have tried channel 85 and I got a "no signal" message with my QAM tuner. It looks like they are encrypting it.

Hooked up now and WXIX is on 85-2.

Will post a more complete list later if anyone wants to know what I'm getting via QAM.

Also no problems with Threshold last night OTA for me.

homersapien

09-18-05, 11:46 AM

If it's WCET-DT 48.1 you are still talking about, It could also be that you may be seeing them working on things, or they may be having "issues" with their audio. It has been noted they have been "sporadic" the past 8 months or so about passing DD 5.1 audio when available from PBS HD, and as I noted I was seeing a slight sync problem from them sat or sunday afternoon which wasn't fixable by turning to another channel then back.

You could also try PBS HD from WCVN-DT/KET4 (54.4), (They transmit from a tower near TAylor Mill, KY approx 6 miles South of WCET) which runs PBS HD channel 8pm~11pm nightly. WPTO-DT(transmits off WXIX tower) also runs PBS HD(but on their own time-shifted schedule, off a server I would imagine) on Sat+Sunday nights 6pm~6am, WPTD-DT Dayton transmits PBS HD channel 6pm~6am nightly.

BTW, I think it was either Sunday evening or sometime yesterday that I noticed audio/video sync was off by about 1/2 second from "The tube"(19.2) on WXIX-DT(also not fixed by switching channels then back). They've also had occasional audio "glitches"(Once earlier this summer audio was missing for several days), more recently "glitches" involving times of missing audio replaced with odd "electronic digital" sounding noises which apparently seem to possibly have something to do with them switching in the local Fox 19 promos.

Thanks for the replay. I have gone so far as to check a different TV (I've tried a 30" LG and 30" 955 Sony), and 48.1 and 5.1 are not even close...audio is 1-2 seconds apart most of the time. The analog versions are fine, no synch problems. Both stations are at the same orientation to me, according to antennaweb.org, maybe something there but I'm a broadcast noob. After messing with both TVs it became apparent that switching channels/turning the set on/off in fact does not help the synch. I've yet to turn on either channel and have audio synch. I also get audio drops from 48.1 a couple of times per week. Frustrating, since 48.1's HD broadcast is so nice :)

I can indeed pickup 54x, but sometimes it appears that their programming differs from 48.1?

Nitewatchman

09-18-05, 12:07 PM

Update: Just checked PBS HD channel and WCET-DT 48.1 at 8:30pm EDT (9/18) and Audio is out of sync with video by about a second or so. Sync is fine on KET4 from WCVN-DT (54.4) and WPTD-DT 16.6 Dayton. Sync is also fine during HD "West Wing" From WLWT-DT(5.1).

Both stations are at the same orientation to me, according to antennaweb.org, maybe something there but I'm a broadcast noob.

WCET/WLWT broadcast from the same tower, but that wouldn't have anything to do with it. If there are reception problems, you'll lose both Video and audio streams simultanously.

I've yet to turn on either channel and have audio synch.

Weird. You might want to try contacting WCET+WLWT engineering departments and tell them about the sync problem your having with your equipment.

I can indeed pickup 54x, but sometimes it appears that their programming differs from 48.1?

54.4(WCVN-DT-KET4) runs PBS HD channel 8pm~11pm nightly - They transcode the 1080i PBS HD Feed to 720p for broadcast(720p is more multicast friendly). At other times, 54.4 is 480i 4x3 SD only CPB/Annenburg channel.

48.1(WCET-DT) Runs PBS HD Channel approx 5pm~1am M~F(lately it's usually been a little later than 5pm when HD starts), and Throughout their on air hours on Sat and Sunday.

From 8pm~11pm, programming is the same from 54.4 and 48.1 99% of the time, but WCET-DT has aired a few "local" HD productions on 48.1, at which time they differ from the National PBS HD channel feed.

Nitewatchman

09-18-05, 07:15 PM

WKOI-DT 39 (remaps to 43-1) TBN Richmond, IN (Transmitter/tower is between Oxford+Trenton, Ohio) has apparently powered up(at least currently).

Currently Getting them solid here with 80% signal quality readings with antenna(antennasdirect XG91) aimed approx 60 degrees off target towards Cincinnati, and off the back side of my Dayton antenna(CM4228) at 80% as well.

jim tressler

09-18-05, 09:54 PM

looks like wcpo is not showing pearl harbor.. wkef is.. wonder why (as I look while flipping from the football game)

microbob

09-18-05, 10:12 PM

looks like wcpo is not showing pearl harbor.. wkef is.. wonder why (as I look while flipping from the football game)

It's as if WCPO has something against WWII movies from Hollywood. They would not show Saving Private Ryan either. Any conspiracists out there?

Nitewatchman

09-18-05, 10:31 PM

It's not just WWII movies. WCPO has aired "alternate" programming instead of ABC programming(usually ABC Movies available in HD from other stations) fairly often. It has Happened on other stations as well, but around here moreso on WCPO than anywhere else.

Update: If I recall correctly, the last time ABC aired "Pearl Harbor" in HD I think WCPO-DT had it, as they did the first ABC HD airing of "Saving Private Ryan". Neither WCPO or WKEF(Sinclair owned) ran SPR last time, because of that "indecency" thing .... err, in other words Janet Jackson's boob ....

If you're into movies+excellent HD PQ(even though it isn't OAR), just a good reason for Cincy viewers tonight to flip away from WCPO and watch "The Two Towers" from WB HD/WSTR-DT instead .... Or to WKEF-DT or another ABC HD station in an adjacent market .....

Nitewatchman

09-18-05, 11:27 PM

Managed to record WEBN fireworks replay from WKRC today while watching Bengals game and noticed Weasel made it into the production credits ...

I didn't think the SD PQ was all that great as SD PQ goes -- for instance it's been much better when the SD has been a "downconvert" on the analog 2000~2003 from the HD production ...

But I thought they did a great job with the production - camera locations/direction and the like, only problem was it was SD, and SD fireworks on TV just don't cut it IMHO ....And, I did notice some extra "noise" presumably RFI involving a camera location during the daylight shots of the harrier jets ...

I wouldn't count on it, but Hopefully perhaps next year CC can send their New HD truck to Cincy , mentioned here :

http://www.tvtechnology.com/dailynews/one.php?id=3255

terryfoster

09-19-05, 07:16 AM

I ran my auto scan again on Friday and was able to find FOX 19. Sunday when I wanted to watch football, I did not find FOX19 but did find two instances of The TUBE. I have found some VERY interesting channels such as HBO(not HD) and Starz Family.

Also on the broadcast front, I am able to pull a weak signal from WHIO-DT. I'm considering going up on the roof again and adjust the antenna slightly to see if it changes anything. I did seem to lose the Dayton WB DT station, but no real loss there.

rleist

09-19-05, 02:12 PM

If you're into movies+excellent HD PQ(even though it isn't OAR), just a good reason for Cincy viewers tonight to flip away from WCPO and watch "The Two Towers" from WB HD/WSTR-DT instead

That'd would be great if any of us east-siders could pick up WSTR-DT. What is the purpose for thier directional antenna for the digital?

Rob

tvnick

09-19-05, 03:09 PM

Rob:

It's not a directional antenna that is the problem, it's the fact that channel 33 is operating at less than 1/4 of their licensed power. Things should be fine next July if they decide to operate at full power.
Nick

rleist

09-19-05, 03:22 PM

Well, the directional is a problem when your on the side that gets very little power:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=39190&rotate=0.00&p0=0.994&p10=0.987&p20=0.974&p30=0.921&p40=0.811&p50=0.695&p60=0.604&p70=0.504&p80=0.363&p90=0.235&p100=0.190&p110=0.195&p120=0.193&p130=0.228&p140=0.348&p150=0.495&p160=0.602&p170=0.691&p180=0.803&p190=0.917&p200=0.979&p210=0.993&p220=0.999&p230=0.996&p240=0.972&p250=0.941&p260=0.937&p270=0.963&p280=0.985&p290=0.992&p300=0.987&p310=0.966&p320=0.938&p330=0.935&p340=0.963&p350=0.989&p360=0.994&
I'm at the 130 deg. mark on that chart. That means only about 25% of that 1/4 power is directed my way.

Nitewatchman

09-19-05, 03:22 PM

Rob/TVnick,

The directional antenna pattern+their low power STA are both currently "issues" involved -- especially the antenna pattern if you are SE of their tower. They are currently being received solidly as Far North As Dayton.

Those relative field strength numbers shown for their pattern on FCC site are on a "logarhtymic" scale, as is "db" scale. Also, Every 2x/-2x increase/decrease in power from a station is about 3db/-3db more/less signal, and is about the same as adding/removing a 2-way splitter.

Hard to say why they went with the directional pattern they are using. I don't know but I wouldn't think there would be an issue with protecting co-channel/adjacent channel stations towards the east/se(only one I can think of is a 33 in Charleston/Huntington, WV), so it may have been a "engineering" issue with the tower mounting of the antenna, or just for the antenna for their STA in order to maximize coverage(and transmitting antenna gain) in other directions with low-power operation.

It should become much more easy to receive, especially to East+SE when WSTR-DT goes to full power(5x more power than they are currently running), which should be on or before July 2006 to meet FCC's "use it or lose it(meaning portions of their analog stations coverage area) full power deadline which applies to them.

The antenna pattern on FCC site is a little(but not a lot) different for their Full power construction permit than the current STA(special temporary authority/low power), and still shows a null to the E/SE - but, since they'll be raising power from 17.1KW ERP to 500KW ERP I expect it will nonethess become much easier to receive in their "nulls" after they go full power.

For instance, currently, according to info on FCC site their biggest null is at 130 degree(true) heading from the "star" tower in Finneytown - which shows a .183 relative field strength for the current pattern 130 degrees.

To calulate ERP being sent in that direction currently :

(.183x.183) x 17,100 watts = a whopping 572 WATTS ERP being sent that way currently.

That's about 15db less signal than they send in most directions(North/west/NW/etc) which gets nearly the entire 17.1KW ERP. And of course being on RF channel 33, they are right next door to WCET-DT which is sending anywhere between about 180KW and 215KW ERP currently towards The east - around a 24db or so difference is signal levels between 1st adjancent channel stations(at 110degree bearing from WCET tower given their antenna pattern). DTV reception is supposed to work fine with as much as 46db difference between 1st adjacent channel stations, however, given that WCET and WSTR are NOT co-located(which is most desireable for 1st adjacent channel digitals) and, other factors may be "involved" with OTA reception from any given location the 24db or so difference may end up being more than that in reality some locations, and also I expect may be enough of a difference that some receivers may have some selectivity issues.

---------------------------------------------------------

To compare that to "the future" when they go full power -- WSTR-DT Full power construction permit shows 500KW ERP, that's roughly 5x their current power, or 15db more. With their full power construction permit antenna pattern info, biggest Null at 100 degrees(true) bearing from their tower, with relative field strength of .190.

(.190 x .190 ) x 500,000 Watts = 18.5 KW ERP being the LEAST amount of signal they should squirt in any directon once they go full power, with most directions(other than SE+E) getting nearly the full 500KW ERP. 18.5KW ERP is more than any of us are getting currently, and also around 15db more than what they squirt towards SE currently. Also will cut down the difference between WCET-DT 34 on 1st adjacent channel to less than 15db(even after WCET-DT goes to full power - 500KW ERP as well) in any direction instead of as much as 24db or so difference in some cases currently.

rleist

09-19-05, 03:54 PM

Thanks for the additional insight Jeff.

I have never quite understood why their analog station was so hard to recieve. I would think with the highest tower and largest power ouput (I'm sure this has something to do with their higher frequency), they should come in crystal clear.

Rob

microbob

09-19-05, 04:00 PM

It's because WSTR Ch 64 is High in the UHF Band and more susceptible to terrestrial interference from trees buildings etc

Nitewatchman

09-19-05, 04:22 PM

Yeah, WSTR 64 analog is 5000KW ERP(analog ERP is "peak" power, DTV ERP is "average") and using a non-directional antenna pattern .... I get them crystal clear up here, but not so well with simple indoor antenna(UHF loop/etc) ....

I think any Terrain blockage is probably the biggest "attenuation" issue involved, especially on hi-UHF ... Another thing as well, Coax looses more signal the higher the frequency, and if you are getting/have gotten water in your coax, higher frequencies are effected more as well ...

BTW - I updated my last post, concerning the "math" and difference in signal levels between 1st adjacent channel stations WSTR-DT 33 and WCET-DT 34 towards the east of their sticks, as at first I hadn't looked at WCET-DT's antenna pattern ... IT turns out to not quite be as "bad" as I first had figured(just using 215KW ERP STA as "reference") ...

rleist

09-19-05, 04:32 PM

APorter

09-19-05, 07:39 PM

WKEF is so much better than WCPO. I don't know why it took me so long to fix antenna. Flipped over to WCPO and not in HD, but WKEF is.

Kathy

09-19-05, 08:21 PM

[QUOTE=Nitewatchman]Be sure to give us a report on how it goes. In addition to Dayton and all 8 Cincy/NKY HD/digital stations, I'd also be interested to know how your analog reception is on Cincinnati low power analogs on 25,38,61. In Cincinnati, WSTR-DT(WB HD) *SHOULD* be the only one the installer may have not been able to "do" anything about, given their directional antenna pattern which doesn't squirt much power in your direction ....

Jeff,
I am happy to take some time to test the stations you referenced above. I tried to test Dayton ABC tonight, which according to www.antennaweb.org is 51.1, but when I try to manually type in the channel, my receiver (Hughes HD-Tivo) just gives me 51 and says channel not available. I have tried to figure out how to manually add this channel, but can only find the ability to change my local channels and rescan. Any ideas? Maybe I'll have to move my antenna cable from the DirecTV receiver directly to the TV?

Still disappointed in the antenna installation process, and when I drive in my subdivison and see that big antenna on the roof I kind of cringe, but then when I turn on the TV and see the improved HD receiption, I smile. Thanks Jeff for the continual promotion of "antenna on the roof" !!!!

Nitewatchman

09-19-05, 08:41 PM

I did finally get my Antennas Direct DB4 mounted outside. I'm getting excellent reception on all the locals (around 95% +) with the exception of 64.1 which I get "no signal".

I do need some advice on grounding. Both the DB4 and my D* dish or mounted to the chimney. Neither has been grounded. The electrical main enters on the other side of the house. The electrical box has a grounding pole where the main enters and a ground wire that snakes though the house to where the water main enters near the side of the house where the chimney is. What do I need to do?

Thanks,
Rob

I think Dusterscott and I covered the Grounding thing in full details(including links to info on proper grounding per NEC code) in the 8 or 9 posts beginning here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6167160&highlight=Grounding#post6167160

-------------------------

Oh yeah ./... Concerning your WSTR reception - I can't recall your exact location, and unless you are WAY out there to the east ---- especially with the rooftop antenna you are using I'd really think you should be getting an excellent quality signal from the analog station, and perhaps at least close to getting a lock from the digital ... However, another "big problem" you might be having on the east side is the closer you are to the towers the farther apart WSTR tower(and WCVN in NKY) will be from the rest of the Cincy towers(the rest all near Downtown), and therefore you may need different antenna aiming for best results from either WSTR or WCVN than what you need for the other Cincinnati stations.

Nitewatchman

09-19-05, 09:04 PM

I am happy to take some time to test the stations you referenced above. I tried to test Dayton ABC tonight, which according to www.antennaweb.org is 51.1, but when I try to manually type in the channel, my receiver (Hughes HD-Tivo) just gives me 51 and says channel not available. I have tried to figure out how to manually add this channel, but can only find the ability to change my local channels and rescan. Any ideas? Maybe I'll have to move my antenna cable from the DirecTV receiver directly to the TV?

Someone using a HD-Tivo is probably going to have to help you on that one. I don't use D*, but if I recall correctly, I think in order for the Dayton stations(and their "remapped" channel numbers) to show up in the Guide, you may have to input a Dayton area Zip code as a 2nd 'zip code'.

If your TV has a Internal ATSC(digital/HD OTA receiver), you could certianly use it as well, either by moving the antenna cable, or by adding a 2 way splitter so you can feed both the HD-Tivo+the internal tuner in the set with the signals from your antenna. Adding a splitter will of course cause you to lose a bit of the signal, which probably won't be a problem(especially if you are using a preamp), but hard to say.

I know you know this, but of course you'll likely need to aim antenna at Dayton before looking at Dayton stations. You might need to do some sort of "autoscan" with antenna aimed towards Dayton as well. Some receivers will have a "add digital channels" function that will do a autoscan but only add "new" channels it finds, and some will let you "add channel" and scan just one indivdual channel in this case 51.

You mentioned 51.1, however if the receiver hasn't "received" any PSIP info from them yet, it will probably actually only be able to see WKEF-DT as 51.3. Long story why 51.3 and not 51.1 - involving FCC rules that went into effect earlier this year concerning MPEG program numbers required to be at address hex30 or above.

Once you do get it "added"(if you have any luck receiving it) WKEF-DT will remap to 22.1. But in most cases the receiver has to get a lock on the signal before it can "Remap it"(although the D* EPG will likely have the remapping info as well), so you may need to "scan in" the station somehow rather than be able to tune to it "manually". It just depends upon the receiver model+how it implements channel tuning.

Of course, you'll likely want the other Dayton stations you may be able to receive as well, not just WKEF-DT.

dusterscott

09-19-05, 09:33 PM

I think Dusterscott and I covered the Grounding thing in full details(including links to info on proper grounding per NEC code) in the 8 or 9 posts beginning here :

Yes we did and I'm happy to report I finished grounding my antenna system just this past weekend. I feel relieved to have everything to code now. Thanks for all of your help Jeff. To anyone taking on this task themselves, you will need some coax fittings and a pair of crimping pliers. Don't go for the cheapo pliers that can quickly frustrate you. I ended up buying a nice crimper at RS for $18 or so - nice single-step crimping procedure, with wide and sturdy jaws. Double check your dish installation (if you have one) and make sure it's properly grounded too. Mine wasn't.

dusterscott

09-19-05, 10:03 PM

Lots of thunder and lightning headed this way. I feel safe :)

jim tressler

09-19-05, 11:20 PM

Go into messages and setup --> settings --> channels ---> off air ---> set up local network - from there you can enter a dayton zip and the dayton channels will populate the guide :)

works great!!

jim

ps.. wcpo is trash tonight - drop into sd for the storm warnings

[QUOTE=Nitewatchman]Be sure to give us a report on how it goes. In addition to Dayton and all 8 Cincy/NKY HD/digital stations, I'd also be interested to know how your analog reception is on Cincinnati low power analogs on 25,38,61. In Cincinnati, WSTR-DT(WB HD) *SHOULD* be the only one the installer may have not been able to "do" anything about, given their directional antenna pattern which doesn't squirt much power in your direction ....

Jeff,
I am happy to take some time to test the stations you referenced above. I tried to test Dayton ABC tonight, which according to www.antennaweb.org is 51.1, but when I try to manually type in the channel, my receiver (Hughes HD-Tivo) just gives me 51 and says channel not available. I have tried to figure out how to manually add this channel, but can only find the ability to change my local channels and rescan. Any ideas? Maybe I'll have to move my antenna cable from the DirecTV receiver directly to the TV?

Still disappointed in the antenna installation process, and when I drive in my subdivison and see that big antenna on the roof I kind of cringe, but then when I turn on the TV and see the improved HD receiption, I smile. Thanks Jeff for the continual promotion of "antenna on the roof" !!!!

CincySaint

09-19-05, 11:21 PM

ps.. wcpo is trash tonight - drop into sd for the storm warnings

Again...ugh.... I hate this

cokebear

09-19-05, 11:39 PM

Hey found HBO in the clear QAM via TW. Not sure yet which one but I think it's reg HBO. Looking for more now.

CincyKev

09-20-05, 02:00 AM

WKEF is so much better than WCPO. I don't know why it took me so long to fix antenna. Flipped over to WCPO and not in HD, but WKEF is.

After all the talk about how much better WKEF is than WCPO when it comes to HD quality, I put a CM4221 antenna on the roof and pointed it toward Dayton. Now I have some questions.

I receive video from WKEF (22.1) just fine, but the audio is acting odd. My TV has a signal meter that appears to give a number from 0-100. WKEF consistently shows something between 75-80. But every seven seconds, the audio drops for a fraction of a second making it sound like the audio is hiccuping. This audio oddity does not occur on any of the other Dayton channels. Still, the HD picture is sooooo much better than WCPO. Odd, though, after the NY-NO game moved to ESPN, I saw the same WCPO jaggies on some of the early clips coming from ESPN, but not later on.

I receive video and audio just fine from WBDT (26.1), but here's the odd part. The signal meter consistently shows a number between 20-25. On every other channel, if the meter drops below 40-50, I start seeing video/audio dropouts. So how is it that WBDT never gets above 25, but I never see any vidoe/audio dropouts? Just what is the signal meter telling me?

The CM4221 signal is fed into a mast mounted preamp. Before adding the preamp, I didn't receive WBDT (signal fluctuated between 4-11). Besides allowing reception of WBDT, the preamp took most of the other Dayton channels from 75-80 readings and moved them to 90-95, and it took WKEF from 55-65 readings to the 75-80 range.

The TV is a Hitachi plasma with NTSC and ATSC tuners built in.

CincyKev

rleist

09-20-05, 11:40 AM

I can't recall your exact location
39d 03' 52"
-84d 19' 09"
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=2&dist=75&dlat2=39&mlat2=3&slat2=52&dlon2=84&mlon2=19&slon2=9&size=9

All the local stuff is with in an azimuth of 288 to 293 with the exception of WCVN in Covington (257) which doesn't give me problems and WSTR at 310. The antenna is probably pointing at about 280-285 right now. I might get up there and point it right at WSTR and see what happens. My signal level on 64.1 is about a 10% level. I might need to consider a preamp up there too as the cable distance is probably 70 feet or more.

I think Dusterscott and I covered the Grounding thing in full details(including links to info on proper grounding per NEC code) in the 8 or 9 posts beginning here :
I re-read those posts but still have some questions. I'd like to avoid running a bonding wire around to the other side of the house as that would be a considerable effort. In addition to putting a grounding rod at the base of the chimney can I just "bond" it to the water main similar as the electric main is?

Also, my coax cables don't run all the way down the house. I ran them into the soffit near the chimney and down to the basement thru a conduit near the center of the house (two story). Should I still be putting grounding blocks near the soffit when the cables are only a few feet long?

Thanks,
Rob

Nitewatchman

09-20-05, 02:35 PM

WKEF consistently shows something between 75-80. But every seven seconds, the audio drops for a fraction of a second making it sound like the audio is hiccuping. This audio oddity does not occur on any of the other Dayton channels.

I'm not getting that here from them. Most of us do get a "video freeze" from WKEF-DT(but only during HD feed, not during other programming) every now and then(averaging about 2 times per hour or so, although that's not saying it happens 2x per hour EVERY hour), search the Dayton thread for "video freeze" for more info. Perhaps we are getting different "symptoms" of the same problem, which in the case of the video "freezes" anyway seems to be something occuring on WKEF's end, and/or perhaps some sort of a "bug" with their encoding and some decoders.(receivers). You might want to send a report of what you are getting to their engineers.

All I can tell you for sure is it's not a reception issue, as if it were you'd lose both the Audio+Video simultanously.

I receive video and audio just fine from WBDT (26.1), but here's the odd part. The signal meter consistently shows a number between 20-25. On every other channel, if the meter drops below 40-50, I start seeing video/audio dropouts. So how is it that WBDT never gets above 25, but I never see any vidoe/audio dropouts? Just what is the signal meter telling me?

MOST "signal meters" on DTV receivers I've seen don't measure actual signal stength. What they do take into account (bit rate errors, SNR,etc - often I think they are just looking at datastream+not the RF signal itself) seems to vary from model to model, and they are generally probably best thought of as "signal quality" meters. For instance, if there is extra "noise" on some channels due to intermodulation distortion products created by either an overloaded preamp, or tuner(getting TOO MUCH signal can even desensitise the tuner), you might need higher "readings" on some stations than is the case with others. Or, the extra "noise" might be due to co-channel interference, or 1st adjancent channel+receiver selectivity issues, or multipath, which are all usually very "frequency specific" and may be more of an issue for some stations than is the case with others. Or, I suppose receiver AGC could even have some effect on the 0~100 readings you get.

For those reasons, I really wouldn't worry too much what the "signal meter" says as long as you are getting perfect, dropout free reception. If you can get them to be fairly steady numbers and say, at or above 65~70 or so(without "disrupting" your reception of other stations) it's probably a good thing. Although, usually(with the DTV receiver's I've used at least --- except when there is extra "noise" involved, be it from multipath, intermod or "interference"/receiver selectivity issues/etc.) the lowest reading required to achieve a signal lock will be the same.

ATSC specs say 15.9db SNR (signal over noise) is the required "threshold" for perfect DTV reception. My guess is What is actually need SNR wise probably varies by as much as a few db or so among receiver models. But, As long as you allways have ~16db SNR or more(It's a good idea to have more since "conditions" sometimes change), you won't have reception related "dropouts". Rather than trying to use the "signal meter" on your receiver, You can get a good idea of how much actual "extra" signal you have from any given station by adding some extra atteunation in feedline(such as a variable attenuator, or "extra" 2 way or 4 way splitters), and seeing how much extra atteunation it takes before you lose reception of that station.

Nitewatchman

09-20-05, 02:54 PM

39d 03' 52"
-84d 19' 09"
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=2&dist=75&dlat2=39&mlat2=3&slat2=52&dlon2=84&mlon2=19&slon2=9&size=9

All the local stuff is with in an azimuth of 288 to 293 with the exception of WCVN in Covington (257) which doesn't give me problems and WSTR at 310. The antenna is probably pointing at about 280-285 right now. I might get up there and point it right at WSTR and see what happens. My signal level on 64.1 is about a 10% level. I might need to consider a preamp up there too as the cable distance is probably 70 feet or more.

Hard to say, but from what I've seen from my receivers 10% is probably only within a few or several db or so of a signal lock from WSTR-DT. I suspect you would probably get them even now(or be very, very close to it) if you aimed antenna right at them, and I also suspect you'll get them fine when they do increase power.

It's hard to say but I'd guess Preamp probably isn't a good idea for you when you have antenna aimed towards Cincinnati. 70 Feet isn't that much of a run -- you should only loose about 4db on higher UHF frequencies per 100FT of coax. The problem is, 10 miles or so is pretty close and it's likely most of the Cincinnati signals are VERY strong at your location, probably strong enough to cause some preamp overload problems - such that a preamp *may* hurt you more than it helps. You'd probably just have to try it to find out for sure, however. You'd definetely want to find a preamp which can handle High signal input levels, probably one that is more in the "mid-gain" range than the "hi-gain" models.

In addition to putting a grounding rod at the base of the chimney can I just "bond" it to the water main similar as the electric main is?

I'd think that would work just fine. Not only in an "effective" manner, but If I read it right, I think it would meet code as well. See the "Earth Grounding and Bonding of Communications Systems" section here :

http://www.mikeholt.com/documents/grounding/word/satellite.doc

Should I still be putting grounding blocks near the soffit when the cables are only a few feet long?

I'd think that would be fine as well. NEC says I believe ground the Coax "as near as practiciable" to where it enters the house. Putting the grounding blocks up near the soffit in your case works for me the way I interpet it. My coax runs for Antennas enter the house into the attic(up about 20 feet from ground) and the ground blocks are a few feet away from where it enters house, I certianly wouldn't run the Coax down near the foundation first just to get "closer to ground", especially as it would have to go back up into the attic again first which is where I split the signal to go to 4 different rooms.

There are some excellent recent posts concerning proper grounding here you might want to check out :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6223254#post6223254

Nitewatchman

09-21-05, 10:38 PM

I receive video from WKEF (22.1) just fine, but the audio is acting odd. My TV has a signal meter that appears to give a number from 0-100. WKEF consistently shows something between 75-80. But every seven seconds, the audio drops for a fraction of a second making it sound like the audio is hiccuping..... <snip>

The TV is a Hitachi plasma with NTSC and ATSC tuners built in.

First time I've ever noticed it, but, along with more than the average amount of occasional video freezes I'm "used" to I am getting occasional very, very short(probably lasting a few, or several 10's of ms each or so) audio drops during HD "Invasion" tonight from WKEF-DT on Zenith HDV420. IT isn't happening EVERY 7 seconds, though. Probably happened about 15 times in past 30 minutes.

There IS a fellow posting on Dayton thread tonight that he's getting the audio drops as you describe them every 10 seconds with a Hitatchi set .... D

For the most part, (and I'm as "guility", or more so of this as anyone else) we probably should be discussing issues with Dayton stations+Reception of Dayton stations on the Dayton thread ;)

cokebear

09-21-05, 11:45 PM

For the most part, (and I'm as "guility", or more so of this as anyone else) we probably should be discussing issues with Dayton stations+Reception of Dayton stations on the Dayton thread ;)

Well it's good in a way that they are discussed here as well since Cin and Day are so close. Would almost make more sense to have combined them so everone could get more input.

CincyKev

09-22-05, 03:46 AM

<snip>
There IS a fellow posting on Dayton thread tonight that he's getting the audio drops as you describe them every 10 seconds with a Hitatchi set .... D

For the most part, (and I'm as "guility", or more so of this as anyone else) we probably should be discussing issues with Dayton stations+Reception of Dayton stations on the Dayton thread ;)

Thanks for the additional info. I'll jump over to the Dayton thread to see what is being said. I posted here because a) I assumed that my problem was an issue related to receiving a distant signal and that others receiving that distant signal might also be seeing the same symptom, and b) I'm lazy :)

peteranton

09-26-05, 07:40 AM

Hey folks,

I was getting the Cincinnati stations okay until a week or two ago. WLWT 5.1 started to cut in and out, so I assumed they were having problems. But since I could get 5.1 fine on another set, I figured it was on my end. I took a trip up to the attic and moved the antenna (a RS 141") closer to the side of the house, more toward the stations. Better (still pixelizing), but now WCPO 9.1 is iffy.

My receiver is a Samsung SIR-TS360, and all but given up on getting the Network feeds from DirecTV (the locals keep denying my waivers). Could it be the receiver? I am assuming that new ones have come out in the last few years that better capture the signal.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

chrisdow

09-26-05, 10:25 AM

Hey Guys,

Been out of this thread for a while but one thing been bugging me on WCET-DT :

Can someone explain how to know when 48-1 is actually broadcasting? -in HD or otherwise? I've been trying to (HD) Tivo "Motorweek" for example & it just never works. (every other tivo & station function works fine)...

Is it a broadcasting, or lack of it, problem? -a "no HD signal" problem? -a "program info" (which Tivo uses to record from) problem? -an operator error (drunk-user) problem?

My standard Def tivo records motorweek fine...

PS: Anyone see the Philips 37" LCD HDTV at Costco for 2499? -Good price for LCD & Stunning picture!

luebster

09-26-05, 02:34 PM

Nitewatchman

09-26-05, 02:52 PM

Hey Guys,

Been out of this thread for a while but one thing been bugging me on WCET-DT :

Can someone explain how to know when 48-1 is actually broadcasting? -in HD or otherwise?

WCET-DT (digital) is on air the same times as it's analog station. Approx. 7am~1am Daily.

I DID notice however they were uncharactieristically off air at one point yesterday or last night when I checked. I assume they were having a problem.

WCET-DT (48.1) currently broadcasts in HD from approx 5pm~1am on weekdays, and throughout ALL their on-air hours on weekends. When they are in "HD Mode", you've got 48.1, 48.3 and 48.5. When they are in "SD mode", only 48.3, 48.4 and 48.5 are active.

Unlike the other PBS stations in the area, they actually "remove" and "add" PSIP info(AND the actual MPEG program streams) for the different subchannels depending upon which ones they are sending programming on when in either SD or HD mode. For example, 48.1 "disappears" here when they are in "SD only mode" completely on receiver I have here which "updates" it's internal virtual channel tables every time I tune to the station. Other receivers will only update their intnernal virtual channel table if you rescan for channels, or will rely on D*'s info, and 48.1 may show up as a "placeholder" but be "blank" when they aren't sending HD. I expect Some receivers may simply just become "confused" by this practice of WCET's of adding/removing PSIP and datastreams, and if for instance, you do a autoscan when they are in SD mode, you may never "see" 48.1 until you do a rescan when it's active.

As leubster says, Motorweek isn't broadcast on PBS HD channel. I don't know when/if WCET airs it. WCET doesn't currently broadcast a digital SD simulcast of it's analog station(as they used to do on 48.2), you can only see that via Analog WCET 48.

WPTO-DT airs PBS HD programming(per their time shifted schedule) ONLY on Sat+Sunday nights between 6pm~11pm. I sometimes wonder if I'm the only person who's ever seen it <g> .... Last night I watched a Widescreen SD upconvert of "Nova" on 14.6, either at 8pm or 9pm - although there was a audio/video sync issue. WPTD-DT Dayton has PBS HD channel on 16.6 from 6pm~6am nightly, WCVN-DT Covington, KY has PBS HD channel on 54.4 8pm~11pm nightly.(KET4 had an issue for a time last night, though, there was no video decoding for a time(but the audio stream was there), but it was working a little later when I checked it.

Clear as mud, I'd bet ....

Nitewatchman

09-26-05, 02:58 PM

Could it be the receiver? I am assuming that new ones have come out in the last few years that better capture the signal.

While there may be receivers that provide slightly better performance, in most cases it's probably better to work on the "antenna" end. If you can't find a "sweet spot" for the antenna indoors(a smaller antenna setup such as Silver sensor for UHF+rabbit ears for VHF *may* even work better for you if placed near a window facing the towers than a large antenna in the attic), probably best to move it outside. Almost ANY antenna placed outdoors, and properly installed/aimed/etc, is likely going to work better in most cases than the best of antennas indoors.

peteranton

09-26-05, 03:12 PM

While there may be receivers that provide slightly better performance, in most cases it's probably better to work on the "antenna" end.

Thanks, Big Guy. That's the crazy thing.........I had the antenna perfect for all these years (6), than all of the sudden 5.1 tanked. Checked with another receiver (a Sony WEGA with a digital tuner) it was fine, and nothing moved up there (the attic). I always assume it's the locals (remember WXIX's mapping issues???).

Thinking it's the Samy getting stupid, I went ahead and ordered the HD TIVO. I also read that 22.1 was rock solid (it is with me), so I'll concentrate on getting WLWT-DT back for the Talladega race this Sunday.

Pete

terryfoster

09-26-05, 03:13 PM

I don't know if this will help you any but I was playing around in Diagnostics mode on my TW Pace HD decoder. The following digital channels are all marked "Clear to Air" in the Tuning paramerters section.

905 WLWT NBC
909 WCPO ABC
912 WKRC CBS
919 WXIX FOX
920 Tube

905 and 906 are shown on Frequency 585.000 with Program ID of 001 for 905 and 033 for 906.

919 and 920 are shown on Frequency 591.000 with Program ID of 002 for 919 and 028 for 920.

909 and 912 are shown on Frequency 693.000 with Program ID of 031 for 909 and 021 for 912.

I got off the phone with TWC and they are convinced that it is truly a tuner or signal strength issue. I am going to rescan for channels when I get home after I take the cable straight from the wall and connect it to my TV. I'm able to get all sorts of channels with my cable being split between my HD-DVR and TiVo and then TiVo to TV, but WXIX seems to be eluding me. I'm hoping that going from the wall to the TV will clear up any signal strength issues since I can get 919 just fine on my HD-DVR.

TWC stated that 919 was shown on 589.25 with Program ID of 2 which would agree with previous posts that people have found it on 85-2. Frequency to channel Table (http://www.jneuhaus.com/fccindex/cablech.html)

I guess I need to flip through the digital stations more often. HBO, Encore West feed, and Stars Family and Kids have all been sent unencrypted via QAM, but all are now seem to be blocked.

I will post all of my channel findings once I figure out if I can get WXIX-DT or not.

Nitewatchman

09-26-05, 03:34 PM

Thanks, Big Guy. That's the crazy thing.........I had the antenna perfect for all these years (6), than all of the sudden 5.1 tanked. Checked with another receiver (a Sony WEGA with a digital tuner) it was fine, and nothing moved up there (the attic). I always assume it's the locals (remember WXIX's mapping issues???).

Thinking it's the Samy getting stupid, I went ahead and ordered the HD TIVO. I also read that 22.1 was rock solid (it is with me), so I'll concentrate on getting WLWT-DT back for the Talladega race this Sunday.

Pete

Big Guy? If we have a Bug guy, then I think we need also need Mama Carlson, Dr. Johnny Fever and Venus Flytrap .... And of course Jennifer and Bailey, Les and Herb .... ;)

Have had no problems with WLWT-DT here that I've noticed. I recall They did seemingly change something with their PSIP some time back(quite a while back, around when they added weatherplus), and I had to rescan on one of my receivers to be able to decode them at that time. But, obviously that's not an issue you're getting if you're still seeing them to some extent.

[update] : Thinking about this some more, thing is I can't think of anything that "changed" from the stations or "RF wise" that would seem to correspond to the time (one or two weeks ago) when you began getting reception problems from WLWT-DT, except WKOI-DT 39 increasing power. And, unless your pretty close to oxford or Trenton, that wouldn't *seem* like it should cause any problems. Doesn't mean something else didn't change, though. For instance, especially if you are using a preamp/amp, as preamps are VERY broadband and can be overloaded by not only signals on the TV bands, if some FM station very near you changed their antenna pattern around/etc, or if nearby police station/firestation/etc. got new radios/etc ....

WLWT-DT for instance was running 65KW ERP up until fall 2002, then increased power to 512KW ERP(the biggest jump) in Fall of 2002, then increased to 1000KW ERP several months ago.

If it's still working just fine for other stations, it wouldn't seem likely to me there is something actually that has went "wrong" with the receiver.

There are so many factors which can be "issues" with reception, it's just hard to even venture a guess concerning why on one receiver, you started having problems with one station. Sometimes, there are "clues" which might lead us to look at perhaps one cause or another, but in this case I'm not getting any of those(or are just not thinking of it) ....

But, just as a FEW of the factors I could think of could involve changes in multipath conditions or signal attenuation factors (can be more of an issue with indoor antenna) .... say if a nearby building went up in signal path or IF a tree limb broke in a recent storm and is "hanging" in a different posistion/etc/etc). Stations powering up+therefore providing more signal level into your STB and potentailly making Intermod issues/"overload" issues(and ESPECIALLY so if you are close to those sources of RF and are using a preamp) and how "good" of a front end your receiver has can be an issue. In this case(if it's the tuner that is "overloading") You could try adding some extra attenuation to feedline+see if that helps(such as the variable(up to -20db) attenuator from Radio shack.

Just so much stuff that can be an issue on the reception end, unless everyone has a problem and it can be detirmined it's an issue on the station end, it's just really hard to guess at "why" you've suddenly started having problems with one station and only 1 receiver. That's one reason why I think it's a good idea if you can minimize the possibilities that such "factors" will be an issue as much as is reasonably possible. Which is why I think a good rule of thumb is to use a outdoor, directional antenna aimed towards the towers.

terryfoster

09-26-05, 11:15 PM

Alright, now I get WXIX-DT even when cabled through the TiVo, weird.

Here are the channels:

79-40 HBO OnDemand Promos
84-1 WLWT-DT
84-3 KET1
84-4 KET2
84-5 KET3
84-6 KET?
84-33 WLWT-WX
85-2 WXIX-DT
*85-7 CET?
85-28 The Tube
93-11 TBN
100-8 Encore West Coast Feed
103-1 Promo TWC
103-4 Promo AOL Music On Demand
104-9 Promo Movies On Demand
104-11 CET?
104-12 CET?
104-19 Promo Nascar in Car
105-12 Promo Answers On Demand
106-4 CSPAN3
107-21 WKRC-DT
107-31 WCPO-DT
*107-32 WCPO-WX
*109-1 HBO
*109-2 Church Channel
*109-3 Trio
*109-4 CMT
*109-5 The Tube
*109-6 Fuel
*109-8 Starz Kids & Family
*109-10 Spanish Station?
111-12 Promo Answers On Demand Spanish
112-1 Promo NBA League Pass
*117-1 America Store
*118-2 The World Network.org
*119-3 BET Jazz

*-Channels that I have seen but are not available as of my last scan.

APorter

09-26-05, 11:22 PM

I'm tired right now, but flipped over to WCPO to check on the score and the channels looks alot better to night. Anyone else notice any change for the better?

bsherm

09-26-05, 11:51 PM

I'm tired right now, but flipped over to WCPO to check on the score and the channels looks alot better to night. Anyone else notice any change for the better?

It always seems to look better on a natural grass field, since the lines are not as sharp. If you look in he stands, and especially at the top of the stadium in some shots it is still up to the same quality we have come to expect from Channel 9, i.e. it sucks.

It is better than SD, but still not good HD. I find myself avoiding WCPO like the plague. I only watch the shows I am already hooked on, and avoid any new series or local programming. Not that I am bitter or anything... ;)

gerhard911

09-27-05, 01:02 PM

TWC stated that 919 was shown on 589.25 with Program ID of 2 which would agree with previous posts that people have found it on 85-2. Frequency to channel Table (http://www.jneuhaus.com/fccindex/cablech.html)

From analyzing the frequency tables it looks like the frequencies that my decoder box shows are calculated averages between the video and sound carriers for the channel (rounded down). The frequency given to you by TW is for the video carrier.

For example Channel 85 has a video frequency of 589.25 and a sound frequency of 593.75:

(589.25 + 593.75) / 2 = 591.5 rounded down to 591

With the difference between video and sound at 4.5MHz on each channel and compensating for rounding off all of the frequencies shown on my converter box are 1.75MHz above the video frequencies shown in the charts. (4.5 / 2) -.5 = 1.75

(apologies for the algebra ;-) )

Converting the clear channels indicated in my original post to the video carrier frequency:

585MHz ==> 583.25MHz with WLWT at 84-1 and KET at -3,-4,-5,-6

591MHz ==> 589.25MHZ with WXIX at 85-2 ; Tube at -28 and CET at -7, -8, -9, -10, -11

675MHz ==> 673.25MHz with ITV at 104-11, -12

693MHz ==> 691.25MHz with WKRC at 107-21 and WCPO at -31

hpm123

09-27-05, 03:58 PM

I'm tired right now, but flipped over to WCPO to check on the score and the channels looks alot better to night. Anyone else notice any change for the better?

Noticed an improvement as well AP... You can still see jaggies in certain areas, but a marked improvement I thought over what past broadcasts have looked like -

Nitewatchman

09-27-05, 08:08 PM

From analyzing the frequency tables it looks like the frequencies that my decoder box shows are calculated averages between the video and sound carriers for the channel (rounded down). The frequency given to you by TW is for the video carrier.

Keep in mind QAM doesn't have video and audio carriers - that's for NTSC signals ... It carries "bits" in datastreams, audio/video or whatever .....

Because less error correction is required for sending signals over a wire rather than over-the-air via 8VSB, QAM/digital cable can fit a station into 3 MHZ RF bandwidth(same data rate as is available OTA) that takes 6MHZ RF bandwidth(19.34mb/s available data rate) OTA. Or in other words, 2 digital "stations" fit in one 6MHZ RF channel via cable QAM.

8VSB for the most part pretty evenly uses the entire 6MHZ bandwidth, unlike NTSC analog, where most of the "power" within the 6MHZ is concentrated in video, audio and color burst carriers.

cokebear

09-27-05, 10:55 PM

The only annoying thing about using my TV's built in tuner for TWC is that there are so many blank channels showing up.

terryfoster

09-28-05, 07:58 AM

The only annoying thing about using my TV's built in tuner for TWC is that there are so many blank channels showing up.

There not really "blank" channels. They are channels that are encrypted but your tuner and my tuner add them in because there is actually a signal there. The bright side is that you can flip through some days and find channels unencrypted that shouldn't be.

cincyguy2k4

09-29-05, 02:02 PM

Hey everyone...

Have a quick Q that may have been answered before.

Can anyone direct me to a good antenna installer in the area? I dont have the nerve to install an antenna myself 2 stories up.

Any info would be greatly appreciated!!!!!

cokebear

09-29-05, 10:37 PM

WLWT-HD for ER on TWC? Anyone else not getting a pic or sound?

chrisirmo

09-30-05, 09:26 AM

I didn't have any problems with ER on TWC in the Loveland area.

Nitewatchman

09-30-05, 09:41 AM

Didn't see any problems OTA during HD ER from WLWT-DT, but I watched part of it from WDTN-DT Dayton.

Hey everyone...

Have a quick Q that may have been answered before.

Can anyone direct me to a good antenna installer in the area? I dont have the nerve to install an antenna myself 2 stories up.

Any info would be greatly appreciated!!!!!

In this post earlier in this thread ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6187738&&#post6187738 ) goheelz seemed to post favorable results with his antenna install by "TNT Pictures" last winter. In addition to checking out that post, You might want to PM goheelz for more info or give TNT pictures a call.

Bubster

09-30-05, 11:54 AM

1) What's the current state of the hdmi problem from time to time with the SA8300? Recently I've read where software updates break it. I'm asking because I currently have a PACE with DVI connection and am delighted with my HD video quality and don't want to sacrifice this by having to switch to component on the 8300.

2) Assuming the HDMI is going to work on the 8300 what kind of adapter do I need for my DVI cable? Or do I possibly need a completely new cable?

Sales people have been pestering me about trying the DVR for free for 90 days so I think I may have a look.

6speed

09-30-05, 02:19 PM

I don't know if this has been mentioned in the past,but The Enquirer is reporting that WCET is going to be the first local station to broadcast in high definition 24/7 starting Saturday October 1

Bluestraw

09-30-05, 03:52 PM

Nitewatchman

09-30-05, 07:03 PM

I don't know if this has been mentioned in the past,but The Enquirer is reporting that WCET is going to be the first local station to broadcast in high definition 24/7 starting Saturday October 1

Good news. Thanks for the heads up. There is also a press release about it here :

http://www.cetconnect.org/pressroom/articledisplay.asp?ID=27

I'll update the first post of this thread(has info on the stations) accordingly ....(I keep that info on the stations updated as much as possible BTW) ....

We'll see if they actually leave the digital(OTA) transmitter on air overnight instead of shutting it down at ~1am, as they also do on the analog, and as they have for as long as I can remember .....

More good news ... Just checked, and at least currently they are only multicasting 1 SD subchannel. Right now, it's :

48.1 - PBS HD channel
48.2 - PBS You.

IMO, They should change 48.2 to simucast of WCET analog, OR even better, drop 48.2 alltogether(at least until the analogs shut off in a few years)+we'll be set :)

Nitewatchman

09-30-05, 08:17 PM

Hi,

Hope it's okay to ask some 'basic' questions - the thread is SO long I can't really look through the whole thing!!

I am hoping to get HDTV soon, and the main local affiliates that my antenna can receive are :

WXIX
WLWT
WKRC
WCPO

Can someone tell me what the quality is like on all of these? What sort of bitrates do they use? I did read something about poor quality on WCPO, and I saw on their website they don't broadcast 5.1 sound. Is this true? Do they use a low bitrate, or do they have other problems?

Thank you VERY much for any help here!!

Check out the first post of this thread for basic info on the Cincinnati area digital stations, and or see the info in the list here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=422073&page=1&pp=30

Punch your address in at www.antennaweb.org to find out which stations you should be able to receive as well as a recommendation concerning what sort of antenna to use. Note that most consider antennaweb's predications as on the conservative side. If you are In Cincinnati Metro area(Including South to about Florence in N KY), in addition to Cincinnati stations, with the "right" antenna setup your chances are very good concerning possibility of reception of Dayton stations as well.

WCPO-DT doesn't have DD 5.1 yet. Neither do WKRC-DT or WLWT-DT.

WCPO-DT's problem isn't a "bitrate" problem. More below.

Concerning "bitrates", and quality I don't know what the exact numbers are, but follows are the programming services(HD, multicast SD/etc) the digital stations you mention are sending currently, using PSIP remapped virtual major/minor channel #'s (sorry, this is going to get a little long, but it's as "basic" as I can get and still answer all your questions ) :

WXIX-DT 29 :

19.1 - 720p - Fox HD/Fox Widescreen SD upconverts/DD 5.1, Simulcast of WXIX analog upconverted to 720p. Last year, WXIX-DT did local HD productions for 2 UC hoops games.
19.2 - 480i - "The Tube" -- All music video channel.

Note: The SD multicast shouldn't effect Fox HD PQ, given the way FOX HD distribution via the "splicer" works. The stream is encoded at network level, and shouldn't be decoded until it reaches your receiver.

WLWT-DT 35

5.1 - 1080i - NBC HD + simulcast of WLWT analog upconverted to 1080i.
5.2 - 480i SD - NBC/WLWT "WeatherPlus".

WKRC-DT 31

12.1 - 1080i - CBS HD + simulcast of WKRC analog upconverted to 1080i. Local HD productions of WEBN fireworks from 2000~2003. From 2002~2004, they (sometimes but not allways) ran Paramount's Syndicated "HD One" movies in HD on Friday or saturday nights(once per month). I believe the "HD one" movies no longer exists from paramount, but not sure.
12.2 - 480i - Precision doppler 12 Radar Screen.

WCPO-DT 10

9.1 - 720p - ABC HD + Simulcast of WCPO analog programming upconverted to 720p. I think dr1394 reported bitrate was either 15 or 16Mb/s earlier this year. They currently have an "equipment issue" which has been occuring since Late summer 2004, just after they moved their studios. This equipment issue results in only 1280x360 unique pixels per frame during ABC HD programming - or in other words 1280x360 "effective" resolution. Even though their encoder is sending 1280x720p, for some reason, evidently something in the signal chain for ABC HD is "downsampling" it to 1280x360 -- Since 1280x720 is still being sent by the encoder, it turns out to be 1280x360 "upconverted" to 1280x720 that is coming out of their encoder. Well, sort of -- it's a "bad" upconversion as it's not something that is "supposed" to be happening. This uses just as many bits as if it were "True" 1280x720p HD. Anyhow, This causes reduced visable detail/resolution, and "staircase pattern"(all especially noticable if you compare it to say, WKEF-DT Dayton), the latter which you will usually see refered to as "jaggies" in this thread. Search this thread for "jaggies", and especially note dr1394's posts in this thread from early this year for more info on their problem. Note that This issue did not exist prior to WCPO-DT's studio move in Summer 2004, including when they were sending 720p from Spring 2003 until Summer 2004, and prior to that, when they were upconverting 720p from ABC to 1080i for broadcast. Way back When they were upconverting to 1080i, MPEG2 compression artifacts were sometimes a problem during bandwidth demanding sections of programming.

9.2 - 480i -- WCPO-DT's Weather channel. It's 528x480 specifically, a non-table 3 ATSC format which most mpeg2 decoders should handle just fine - also see dr1394's posts on this(or on openDTV forum) in this thread from early this year(spring or late winter I think).

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other Cincinnati stations which do HD which you should be able to receive but that you didn't mention :

WSTR-DT 33

64.1 - 1080i - WB HD/DD 5.1, and WSTR analog programming upconverted to 1080i. - This station has the Best HD PQ in Cincinnati currently IMO. Source programming "differs" PQ wise of course.

WCET-DT 34

PBS/CET

Note : The following is the current "situation" at 8pm 9/30 - since they are changing things Oct 1(err, now in other words), I'm not sure if they are going to change things around and do more multicasting at certian times as has been the case up until now - They usually multicast 2 SD channels alongside HD, and go off air OTA approx 1am~6:30am nightly - "normally" also, the programming on their analog 48 station is not available via their digital station :

48.1 - 1080i - PBS HD channel/DD 5.1 - Also, they've had a few local/WCET HD productions. Note that many of the programs on PBS HD channel are Widescreen SD, upconverted to 1080i at network level.
48.2 - 480i - PBS You, currently.

Note: Last I talked to Jack Dominic at WCET, he said they were providing a portion of their bandwidth during the day to first responders for experimental purposes.

WCVN-DT 24

KET/PBS in N KY

SD Multicast mode (11pm~8pm daily) :

54.1 - 480i - KET1 - Same as WCVN 54 analog.
54.2 - 480i - KET2 - digital simulcast of KET's 2nd louisville station, WKMJ 68.
54.3 - 480i - KET3 - Educational programming sent to schools statewide in KY
54.4 - 480i - KET4 - CPB/Annenburg channel.
54.5 - 480i - KET5 - Coverage of KY House (only active when general assembly in session -- They also ran the Roberts Confirmantion hearings, and you'll sometimes see color bars up)
54.6 - 480i - KET6 - Coverage of KY senate (only active when KY general assembly in session)

HD Mode (8pm~11pm Nightly) :

54.1 - 480i - KET1 - Same as WCVN 54 analog.
54.2 - 480i - KET2 - digital simulcast of KET's 2nd louisville station, WKMJ 68.
54.4 - 720p/DD 5.1 - KET4 - [updated] : Selected PBS HD programming per their time shifted schedule, with an emphasis on PBS HD programming, rather than SD widescreen programming. Note that they transcode PBS HD from 1080i to 720p for broadcast. 720p is more multicast friendly, as it has a bit less pixels than 1080i ....

Note : WCVN/KET also utilizes available oppurtunistic bandwidth for datacasting services. See the KET digital website for more info.

WPTO-DT 28

ThinkTV/PBS - currently broadcasting from WXIX tower in Cincinnati, unlike WPTO 14 analog which transmits from Oxford :

SD Mode - (M~F 24/7, Sat and Sunday 12am~6pm)

14.2 - 480i - simulcast of Think 14 (WPTO 14 oxford)
14.3 - 480i - Think14 Prime - repeat schedule of Think 14 prime time schedule.
14.4 - 480i - Think14 Learn (cpb/annenburg channel)
14.5 - 480i - Think14 World - BBC world news, DW news/etc/etc. I've seen "The Ohio Channel" on here at times as well.

HD Mode (Sat+Sun Only 6pm~11PM) :

14.2 - 480i - simulcast of Think 14 (WPTO 14 oxford)
14.3 - 480i - Think14 Prime - repeat schedule of Think 14 prime time schedule.
14.6 - 1080i - Selected PBS HD/widescreen SD programming time shifted per their schedule.

-----------------------------------------

Dayton stations you'll probably also have a shot at receiving :

WDTN-DT 50 :

2.1 - 1080i - NBC HD/DD 5.1 - WDTN programming upconverted to 1080i.
2.2 - 480i - SD digital simulcast of WDTN analog.

WHIO-DT 41 :

7.1 - 1080i CBS HD/ DD 5.1 - WHIO programming upconverted to 1080i.

Note: They don't "normally" multicast, but did temporarily have a 7.2 480i SD subchannel up during the day, only during Roberts confirmation hearings.

WPTD-DT 58 (ThinkTV/PBS) :

SD Mode : (6am~6pm Daily) :

16.2 - 480i - SD digital simulcast of WPTD 16 analog.
16.3 - 480i - Repeat shedule of WPTD prime time schedule(usually nat'l PBS feed)
16.4 - 480i - PBS Kids
16.5 - 480i - The Ohio Channel - Coverage of Ohio state gov't, and other "Ohio" specific programming.

HD Mode : (6pm~6am Nightly) :

16.2 - 480i - SD digital simulcast of WPTD 16 analog.
16.3 - 480i - Repeat shedule of WPTD prime time schedule(usually nat'l PBS feed)
16.6 - 1080i - PBS HD Channel.

-------------------------------

WKEF-DT 51

22.1 - 720p - ABC HD (DD 5.1 soon), WKEF programming upconverted to 720p. No jaggies, no Multicasting.

WBDT-DT 18

26.1 - 1080i - WB HD/DD 5.1 - WBDT programming upconverted to 1080i.

WRGT-DT 30

45.1 - 720p - Fox HD/DD 5.1 - WRGT programming upconverted to 720p.

Note that all 480i services listed above are 4x3 aspect ratio.
---------------------------

Dayton ABC, CBS Currently has better HD PQ IMO than the Cincinnati ABC+CBS affiliates.

Dayton ABC has had a long standing "techincal" issue(video freezes) however - which seems to effect most, but perhaps not all decoders. There is also a more recent "audio dropouts" issue they are currently having, which is more pronounced on some decoders -- They say they are currently working "hard" on their video/audio issues - see recent posts in Dayton thread for more info. Dayton CBS+NBC has DD 5.1 wheras the Cincy affiliates do not - According to their chief engineer, Dayton ABC hopes to have DD 5.1 by this weekend or next week. WCET-DT+WCVN-DT Cincinnati/N KY have the best PBS HD PQ, and DD 5.1. Not much difference HD PQ wise between Cincy/Dayton NBC, Fox and WB affiliates.

------------------------------------------------

Other than the datacasting mentioned above by KET(and possibly WCET), I don't know if any other stations in the area are doing any datacasting, or testing OTA subscription services/etc, currently. WPTD-DT/WPTO-DT mention datacasting "soon" in their "ThinkTV digital" on air promos, but I'm not sure if they've implemented anything yet.

Around November of each year, stations submit their "ancillary+supplemental services" forms to FCC (FCC has a 5% "tax" on any revenue generated by such "ancillary" services(datacasting/OTA "subscription" services/etc) ... I'll check around that time to see if the stations are doing anything new in this regard. WKRC-DT used to use 4Mb/s of their bandwidth for a "webhopper" service which was discontinued in Mid 2004. IMO, webhopper delitirously effected HD PQ, looked to me to more of an extent than their current weather radar SD channel, which I think still causes it not to look as good as WHIO-DT Dayton during bandwidth demanding programming. For a time (late summer 2004~spring 2005) WKRC-DT didn't multicast, and had excellent HD PQ during bandwidth demanding programming(in regards to MPEG compression artifacts). As was the case with WLWT-DT, before they added WeatherPlus.

---------------

Hope this helps, I think that's a pretty good summary of the state of HD from the locals. And, hopefully, perhaps this post will be useful as a summary for others who don't have a HD set or STB but soon will be getting one as well.

Enjoy your HDTV when you get it :)

Nitewatchman

09-30-05, 10:00 PM

This is interesting -- after coming across it in Lousiville thread, I found the following near bottom of page here : http://www.ket.org/dtv/channels.htm

Special note for Louisville-area viewers: KET has discontinued the 24-hour pass-through of the PBSHD Channel on WKMJ-DT in Louisville. PBS has dramatically increased our fee for carrying the direct network feed of that service, which offers relatively few new programs—especially high-definition programs—each month. So rather than continue to purchase the rights to the PBSHD service, we are investing in new equipment to begin local origination and time-delayed scheduling of high-definition programming sooner than originally anticipated. We also will continue to explore other options for WKMJ. In the meantime, you can look for a greater concentration of true HD programming in our prime-time service on KET4 (WKPC-DT in Louisville), which is now being scheduled by KET.

KET 4 HD schedule (Which we get from WCVN-DT) is here :

http://www.ket.org/dtv/programs.htm

-----------------------------------------------

Even though this is info is primarily for viewers of KET's "#2" digital station in Louisville(all other KET digital transmitters statewide send the same thing we get from WCVN-DT) -- I think it could also mean "good things" for Those of us who are KET viewers in Cincinnati/N KY area .... Why do I think this? Because of this part of the above quote :

"So rather than continue to purchase the rights to the PBSHD service, we are investing in new equipment to begin local origination and time-delayed scheduling of high-definition programming sooner than originally anticipated. "

By "local origination", I assume they mean KET HD productions Besides those which have already aired on PBS(but not very often) as part of the American Shorts series : "The Ryan interview" for instance. Or, perhaps a possibility even non-KET productions which are seen on KET but not necessarily on PBS -- such as apalshop stuff or independant productions in some cases supported in some way by KET.....

If I assume correctly, now there's a great idea :)

I'd think "sooner" may not necessarily mean "soon" on the local origination part of it though .....

jim tressler

09-30-05, 10:22 PM

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050930/ENT/509300375

good news!!

Bluestraw

10-01-05, 09:17 AM

nitewatchman - THANK YOU! Wow, what a detailed helpful post. Really appreciate it.

Now, I do have a few more questions, after reading it all!!

1) Based on what I saw, I would be much better off getting the Dayton channels (at least ABC and CBS) if possible. My location is roughly in the middle of this map - do you think this would be possible, and if so what sort of aerial might I need / how much would this cost (+ install)?

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=39.017333,-84.564707&spn=0.008568,0.016532&hl=en

2) I can't believe WCPO have been so poor for so long! That sort of downconversion sounds pretty bad. Have they every officially responded to it? I guess people have tried calling and speaking to their engineers - what have they said?

3) Do you have any idea when the Cinci CBS, NBC and ABC stations might be adding DD5.1?

4) Any chance someone could recommend a local (reliable!) antenna installer?

Thanks again for all the help - MUCH appreciated!

bsherm

10-01-05, 11:40 AM

2) I can't believe WCPO have been so poor for so long! That sort of downconversion sounds pretty bad. Have they every officially responded to it? I guess people have tried calling and speaking to their engineers - what have they said?

The wierd thing is that according to folks it was fine before their move (I was not an HD viewer then).

They have promised to fix it by MNF for the last two years, and have failed to fix it. Next year's MNF will be in crisp HD for sure... it will be on ESPNHD :) .

bsherm

10-01-05, 11:46 AM

Having watched the folks responsible for the HD/SD switch on stations like WCPO, I have to; WHY do they need to switch to SD at all when they go to commercials? I do understand that they need to be in SD for text crawls and the like, but if they aren't running a text crawl, why do they need to switch to SD for commercials.

It may be TV-Specifc, but my 4:3 Tube displays 16:9 in letterbox. When they are slow to switch to SD at commercial breaks, the only reason i know they are switching is a quick stutter in the image, and then noticing when the HD program returns it is in SD till the person in charge wakes up. I don't see any big difference before the switch on the commercials. If anything, it looks a little better.

Is that a factor of my setup? Do other setups see the Commercial messed up? Am i making any sense? :confused:

Nitewatchman

10-01-05, 12:43 PM

Now, I do have a few more questions, after reading it all!!

Bluestraw, first off I have to say you will find more detailed information concerning most of your questions in the past 10~15 pages or so of this thread -- For example Several of us have went through this stuff in detail recently as several folks put up antennas for Dayton reception(or for Cincy+Dayton reception), and there is info from a couple of folks who used pro installers.(See Kathy's and goheelz recent posts).

My location is roughly in the middle of this map - do you think this would be possible,

Probably, unless you have nearby hills in the signal paths towards Dayton.

and if so what sort of aerial might I need

Hard to say how much antenna you might need. You might want to try your current antenna first and see how that does. Dayton digital stations are all UHF(Cincinnati has hi-VHF+UHF digital stations), a hi-gain UHF directional antenna(+mast mount preamp) would probably be a good idea for you for dayton Dayton. Preamp may not be such a good idea for you for Cincinnati. UHF wise, CM4221 or other 4 bay bowtie might do it, but CM4228, CM4248, AntennasdirectXG91 might be better choices for you for Dayton and are among the highest gain antennas, most directional available. For Both Cincinnati+Dayton on a single antenna, you'd probably want a medium~large size VHF/UHF combo+rotor, or seperate VHF/UHF antennas -- such as the "best" of UHF antennas, along with either a broadband VHF antenna(such as winegard PR5030) or a Hi-VHF antenna for the Cincinnati digitals(such as Winegard YA-1713). A "coat hanger" antenna such as winegard Sensar or CM3010 would probably be enough for you for VHF in cincinnati, though. WCPO-DT is the only digital station in area currently on VHF, both WKRC+WCPO have chosen to use VHF after analog shut off(the rest in Cincy/Dayton have "chosen" to stay on UHF at this point).

I wouldn't count out Cincinnati, though. The current situation PQ+DD 5.1 wise can and likely will change. It wasn't all that long ago that Cincinnati stations had the PQ(and "service") edge over Dayton, and that might happen again. And, there are times when Dayton or Cincinnati stations have problems, or times when you get different programming from Dayton or Cincinnati (such as NFL HD games, or a Cincy station has "Billy Graham" or severe weather reports/etc and Dayton doesn't+Vice versa).

/ how much would this cost (+ install)?

Depends upon if you do it yourself or hire an installer. Again, see the recent posts in this thread(from Sept and august) concerning antenna installs(and proper grounding) for aporter, kathy, Jim Tressler, dusterscott and suburbanmom --- Generally, it could range anywhere from between about $150 and $700 or so, but you can of course stick up a inexpensive, outdoor antenna for as little as $50 or so DIY. How much more it would cost to "do it right" depends upon if you have some extra coax and ground wire/clamps/etc. laying around.

If you do hire an installer(hopefully you can find a knowledgable one), they'll probalby recommend an antenna/etc. for you, and you'll probably have to choose from among the antennas they install. Most antenna installers in this area seem to use winegard antennas.

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=39.017333,-84.564707&spn=0.008568,0.016532&hl=en

2) I can't believe WCPO have been so poor for so long! That sort of downconversion sounds pretty bad. Have they every officially responded to it? I guess people have tried calling and speaking to their engineers - what have they said?

Yes, they've responded to it. They don't "admit" anything about 1280x360, though. Anytime I've brought it up to their engineers they just say "our encoder is sending 1280x720p. We found out about the 1280x360 "effective resolution" when dr1394(an MPEG "expert" who I believe worked on the development of MPEG and I believe some MPEG2 encoders) analyzed their datastream with a "reference" software decoder - If you do a search for dr1394's posts, it'll probably be easiest to find his posts on this thread(again from earlier this year, either spring or winter) about it. And, Again, you'll get more info if you dig though this thread(search this thread for "jaggies" for instance, or WCPO, WCPO-DT or "staircase" pattern).

Anyway, Basically, WCPO engineers they say it's an issue with their encoder (the same encoder they were using since 1998 which was fine until after their studio move) and I believe the last we heard was that they currently have it "planned" to be fixed by Q4 of this year.

3) Do you have any idea when the Cinci CBS, NBC and ABC stations might be adding DD5.1?

There is also some info on this in past posts(at least on WKRC+WCPO), but I can't recall the exact info. I don't think there are any definitive dates.

WCPO-DT said they were adding DD 5.1 last year(2004) after their studio move. It didn't happen. ABC is in the process of upgrading equipment(sat receiver's/etc), at all it's affiliates(the upgrades just happened at WKEF-DT Dayton last week), and I'd guess it'll be sometime after they get the ABC upgrades, and perhaps after they get their "jaggies" situation straightened out.

4) Any chance someone could recommend a local (reliable!) antenna installer?

See my post near bottom of the last page, concerning Goheelz seemingly favorable report of an antenna install last winter from an outfit called "TNT Pictures". That's the only favorable report I've heard concerning antenna installers in this area for a couple of years or so. Back 2 or 3 years ago, there were some favorable reports from a place in Milford(can't recall the name), but seems like the last time someone tried to use them they found they were out of business.

Sorry I may not have answered all your questions in full "detail" -- and I DO know it can be time consuming to wade through all the recent posts(on this thread, except for the info posts in first few posts of this thread, its probably best to work your way "backwards" instead of starting at beginning of thread) and researching what you are looking for at AVSforum on other threads//etc to find the info you are looking for --- However, it is also time consuming to have to continue repeating much of this info over and over again, especially as it is often necessary to go into a lot of "detail" concerning antenna/reception issues ..... and, we've went into great detail concerning WCPO's PQ issues, many times in fact.

Nitewatchman

10-01-05, 12:50 PM

Having watched the folks responsible for the HD/SD switch on stations like WCPO, I have to; WHY do they need to switch to SD at all when they go to commercials? I do understand that they need to be in SD for text crawls and the like, but if they aren't running a text crawl, why do they need to switch to SD for commercials.

Well, most commericals ARE SD, including the ones on the nat'l ABC feed(which ABC upconverts to 720p and sends over the HD feed - Most stations use that, but some, for some reason switch to ABC SD feed for the nat'l commercials instead).

WCPO also needs to switch to the SD source for commercials aired locally by WCPO instead of nat'l commercials aired by ABC.

Doc had mentioned once that the switcher for the digital station is slaved to analog master control. Don't know if that's still the case now or not.

I'm not sure if that answered your question or not, but that's my best shot at it ...(there are NO stupid questions here BTW) ...

Bluestraw

10-01-05, 12:51 PM

Sorry I may not have answered all your questions in full "detail" -- and I DO know it can be time consuming to wade through all the recent posts(on this thread, except for the info posts in first few posts of this thread, its probably best to work your way "backwards" instead of starting at beginning of thread) and researching what you are looking for at AVSforum on other threads//etc to find the info you are looking for --- However, it is also time consuming to have to continue repeating much of this info over and over again, especially as it is often necessary to go into a lot of "detail" concerning antenna/reception issues ..... and I've found it's often best to research first, then ask questions ....

Indeed, you gave me MUCH more detail than I would ever have hoped for. THANK YOU :)

chrisirmo

10-01-05, 11:22 PM

I do understand that they need to be in SD for text crawls and the like, but if they aren't running a text crawl, why do they need to switch to SD for commercials.
They should have the capability to show crawls without switching to SD by early next year. This is based on an email I received from WCPO's engineer in response to my complaint about the jaggies. The jaggie problem should be gone and 5.1 should be up then as well.

cokebear

10-01-05, 11:32 PM

Well I ended up having to record ER in SD the other night. I'm increasingly dissapointed with the SA8300HD box. I have had to reboot the thing 3-4 times this week and am really aggrivated to find out that some of my shows may not get recorded. The E* DVR I had before was extremely reliable. Some times I think I should have stayed with E* but really wanted to be able to record in HD and the price point for a E* HD recorder was just too much not to mention that you have to put up an extra dish to be able to get the VOOM channels they offer as I understood it. OK enough rant and rave for tonight.

Oh has anyone heard or seen any info about TW Cincy having taken over control of TW SWOhio? I'm curious about TW Cincy passing the Dayton stations in HD.

barhoram

10-02-05, 11:06 AM

DrDon

10-02-05, 11:16 AM

Anyone know why FOX 19 doen't have the 1:00 HD NFL game this week? I will obviously be watching the bengals, but wanted to get the other 1:00 game on a little tv. It's listed in the guide for FOX 45 out of datyon, but not for Cincinnati. If I remember correctly, there was also only one local NFL game on at 1:00 last week.Only the affiliate of the network carrying a home game can show a doubleheader if that network has doubleheader rights on that particular weekend. It's a Fox doubleheader weekend, but the Bengals are at home and on WKRC. Therefore, WXIX can only show one game of the Fox doubleheader, so they're going with a late game. Last weekend was a CBS doubleheader weekend, so WXIX could only carry one game, anyway.

The rule only applies when the home team is at home.

Doc

HDTVChallenged

10-02-05, 12:01 PM

LOL ... Good grief, why does it seem like the NFL has a crack team of 9 yr olds from the playground making up all these "rules." :D

DrDon

10-02-05, 12:02 PM

HDTV Challenged

I've never heard it stated better! <g>

IWRBB

10-02-05, 01:29 PM

TWC 912 and OTA, Bengals game in SD. :(

I thought ALL games were in HD this year CBS

Rakesh.S

10-02-05, 01:39 PM

TWC 912 and OTA, Bengals game in SD. :(

I thought ALL games were in HD this year CBS

CBS does 3 games a week in HD.

Look in the programming forum for the sticky at the top.

jim tressler

10-02-05, 03:48 PM

At the start of this year they promised fixed jaggies and 5.1 by august.. lol .. now its end of the year!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: **** on 'em

They should have the capability to show crawls without switching to SD by early next year. This is based on an email I received from WCPO's engineer in response to my complaint about the jaggies. The jaggie problem should be gone and 5.1 should be up then as well.

microbob

10-02-05, 04:25 PM

I wonder if it would do any good to contact the head of Scripps engineering. I know Sinclairs Mr HDTV posts on this forum.

William Smith

10-02-05, 06:23 PM

By "local origination", I assume they mean KET HD productions Besides those which have already aired on PBS(but not very often) as part of the American Shorts series : "The Ryan interview" for instance. Or, perhaps a possibility even non-KET productions which are seen on KET but not necessarily on PBS -- such as apalshop stuff or independant productions in some cases supported in some way by KET.....

If I assume correctly, now there's a great idea :)

I'd think "sooner" may not necessarily mean "soon" on the local origination part of it though .....

We have installed equipment to allow is to record and delay HD programming we have already paid for. We have an editing system that can be upgraded to support HD and a low end HD camera so we can do some simple stuff.. and a there is some how to programming that is in HD...

We are checking our options and building the schedule as we go...

William

Nitewatchman

10-02-05, 07:35 PM

Thanks for the info, William. I'm Looking forward to seeing the future of DTV/HD at KET ...

I'd bet you've been busy lately, given this, and getting KET3 to the schools w/o the sat feed ....

This is certianly looking good HD wise (not so much SD widescreen upconverts) the next couple of weeks :

http://www.ket.org/dtv/programs.htm

I just checked out KET4 -- "Mustard Pancakes" looked good HD with a smooth transistion to the ID arfterwards around 19:28 EDT ...

William Smith

10-02-05, 09:04 PM

At this time we are building the schedule with HD only.. There may be upconverts in the weeks where we are short of material..

Yes I have been very busy....

ktarkington

10-03-05, 09:26 AM

Suprise, Suprise!!! I just talked to the Chief Engineer at WCPO and they are now not going to update the Motorola at all and going to wait till the first of the year to purchase a new one. He said that it would be until the end of January before they have anything new installed. That means that all of the BCS bowl games will look like absolute horse dung again!!! I wish some huge advertiser would pull their commercials until they got it fixed.

jim tressler

10-03-05, 09:32 AM

lol.. and who wants to bet it will get pushed further off than that!

Nitewatchman

10-03-05, 10:04 AM

Their Current Motorola(GI) encoder worked just fine and was "jaggie free" From 1998 to 2003 when they were upconverting to 1080i, and from Spring 2003 to Summer 2004 when they were sending 720p from the old studio location.

Something else is causing the jaggies. Maybe the encoder is involved with some piece of new equipment added after the studio move being the "real" problem, but I don't see how it could be solely the encoder, unless any "fix" applied to fix this issue previously(One of their engineers did leave in late 2002) was lost during the studio move, or other encoder "settings" were lost during the move.

ktarkington

10-03-05, 12:42 PM

I bet $50 that they don't have it fixed by next July 1st. It has been 2 years now with broken promises, so why change now.

Nitewatchman

10-03-05, 12:56 PM

2 years? I believe The issue started happening in late summer 2004(that's also when the first reports of it started occuring in this thread), But that's still way too long .....

Maybe they are thinking we won't notice it so much after MNF HD football is gone ....

Only problem Is, I notice it in other HD programming as well. It's especially easy(not only the jaggies but the reduced amount of detail) with a/b comparisons between WCPO-DT/WKEF-DT or WSYX-DT or other ABC stations during ABC HD. On the ABC Bug, and for instance, It was full of jaggies last week during "Alias"(Sydney was wearing Sunglasses at one point which were full of jaggies for instance, and it was making my eyes water to try to look at the eyeballs of the actors/actresses because they were full of jaggies in some shots as well) and "Commander in Chief" (an example would be The fuselage just behind cockpit in a shot of air force one) ...

ktarkington

10-03-05, 04:34 PM

My bad, A year and a half. Alias was horrible to watch last week. At least this is Alias' last year and there won't be anything worth watching on WCPO other than sports. The BCS bowls needs to move to FOX or NBC.

Nitewatchman

10-03-05, 05:02 PM

My bad, A year and a half.
.

Err, more like a year+two months or so ... No problem though, it certianly SEEMS more like 10 years .....

Alias was horrible to watch last week. At least this is Alias' last year and there won't be anything worth watching on WCPO other than sports. The BCS bowls needs to move to FOX or NBC.

I tend to look at this sort of thing a little differently. I think they need to get it right no matter what *I* like or don't like to watch, besides I'll just watch WKEF-DT anyway as least when they've got things "working" .... DH and Lost do awfully well in the ratings, and I don't care how good the ratings are they should allways get it right, or at least *try* their hardest to get it "right". If they'd just do the latter, and demonstrate to us that is the case that would certianly go a long way with me. And, as another example, GMA is supposed to be HD soon. The Jaggies for the HD rose parade coverage were awful last year as well.

Nitewatchman

10-03-05, 11:14 PM

Jaggie Free(and dropout free) MNF HD coming in here currently via a little enhanced signal propagation(tropo scatter) from WTVQ-DT 40(remaps to 36.1), Lexington, KY(107 miles from me) .... Sure beats WCPO-DT+WKEF-DT tonight - actually it looks very good :)

You certianly can't count on "tropo", but Just another good reason to stick that hi-gain directional antenna up outside with rotor (and mast mount preamp if you're not too close to the locals to have "overload" problems) ....

Crappy lo-rez Digital camera screenshot of WTVQ-DT with some moire pattern due to "focusing" issues(I defocused it a bit, but not enough) for the camera attached ....

dusterscott

10-04-05, 06:26 AM

Yeah, last night was the first time I watched WCPO in a while. The jaggies were annoying, of course, but much better than what WKEF has been transmitting lately.

APorter

10-04-05, 07:33 PM

My battle with Time Warner to get a firwire activate box may be coming to an end. I received a call today that I would be receiving a box next Tuesday. This was a two week battle of Time Warner repeatedly telling me that they didn't have any boxes and didn't have to do anything to get me one. A letter I sent to Pat Stern at ICRCTV, who then forwarded the letter and got in touch with a VP at Time Warner is what finally resolved the issue. I can't remember who posted the info about contacting ICRCTV, but I wanted to say thanks for the advice.

jim tressler

10-04-05, 09:11 PM

:) - you are welcome - pat and her crew do a nice job

cokebear

10-04-05, 10:11 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/20051004/tc_pcworld/122738

Very disturbing.

jim tressler

10-04-05, 10:14 PM

as usuall - its the consumer that gets screwed!

Dimitriz

10-05-05, 10:01 AM

Who in their right mind would get Windows Vista???
I am sticking with XP...., besides XP drivers for HDDVD will be hacked quicker then Vista's.

chrisirmo

10-05-05, 11:16 AM

I see that the Bengals game for Sunday night is scheduled to be shown on WKRC. Does anyone know if they will broadcast it in HD? If not, will it be blacked out on ESPNHD?

jim tressler

10-05-05, 11:34 AM

espn has the rights - so it will be shown in hd on espn hd / most likley sd on wkrc

terryfoster

10-05-05, 11:34 PM

So I finally got a HDMI cable for my SA8300. Since I am running HDMI->HDMI I am losing the 5.1 signal out of the STB. Does any one know what the solution to this problem is?

cokebear

10-05-05, 11:50 PM

I keep finding more bad news for us.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/20051005/tc_pcworld/122843

Some HDTVs May Not Play HD Discs???

terryfoster

10-06-05, 05:50 AM

I keep finding more bad news for us.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/20051005/tc_pcworld/122843

Some HDTVs May Not Play HD Discs???

I wouldn't really consider this to be a surprise. HDCP was created pretty much for this reason.

chrisirmo

10-06-05, 09:24 AM

So I finally got a HDMI cable for my SA8300. Since I am running HDMI->HDMI I am losing the 5.1 signal out of the STB. Does any one know what the solution to this problem is?
My understanding is that right now there is no solution. Supposedly there is an update coming soon that will allow you to force 5.1 over the digital audio outputs. For now I've been reduced to using an HDMI->DVI cable, as it does not have the same problem.

Kathy

10-06-05, 11:25 AM

I have a co-worker that is considering purchasing either a Plasma or LCD and signing up for Time Warner HD. She is worried that there isn't much broadcast in HD, so she will see a bad picture most of the time. I suggested she visit TitanTV's web site and browse for broadcast that will be aired in HD. And, if most of her shows are broadcast in HD, that she will likely be happy with a Plasma or LCD tv. But, when we looked at TitanTV's web site I am not sure what channels Time Warner uses for HD broadcasts, as I have DirecTV. Can Cincinnati TW users help me out.

bsherm

10-06-05, 11:45 AM

A list on TW for the Hi-Def tier can be accessed here:
http://www.timewarnercable.com/cincinnati/programming/hdtier.html

She can select her address to see the list. This link might work:
http://www.twcinci.com/cable/lineup/default.asp?type=Digital&Submit=Display

HD is in the 900's. Basically most broadcast networks (minus UPN and WB). Also TNT HD and Discovery HD.

gerhard911

10-06-05, 01:11 PM

If she subscribes to digital cable and asks for an HD set top box she will get the local WLWT, WKRC, WCPO, WXIX, WCET & KET HD feeds. I believe at this level TNT-HD and Discovery HD are also included.

If she adds the HD Tier to her subscription she will also get HD-Net, HD-Net Movies, INHD1, INHD2 and ESPN-HD.

If she subscribes to HBO &/or Showtime an HD feed for their primary channel is included. I believe there are also some PPV HD channels now as well.

If the HD sets she is considering are Cable Card ready she could ask TW about availability as an alternative to a set top box. I don't believe that Cable Card supports PPV or On Demand channels if those are important to her.

hdincinci

10-06-05, 02:15 PM

Hello all, I am brand new to this forum and was looking for some help. I recently bought a flat panel hdtv with the cable card feature and I am having trouble with the cable card. Time Warner installed the card for me but I am not getting all of my hd channels on it: no inhd, inhd2, showtime hd, and even some of the non hd digital channels do not come in. I had time warner come out and try to fix this, but they say that it is not a signal problem, but that it is probably my tv's software that needs updated. Is this likely, or would it be more likely that the cable card does not work right. If anyone has experienced this problem I would really appreciate some feedback. Thanks

gerhard911

10-06-05, 04:34 PM

I am totally ignorant as to the specifics of Cable Card, having never had one myself. I would recommend you do some searches over in the HDTV Hardware Forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=25). You are more likely to find folks with first hand experience over there.

Based on past experience with TW I do think you are getting the runaround. I seriously doubt it's a problem with your TV. A few things that I would do with TW locally if I were in your shoes.

1) I'd ask them to temporarily hook up an HD set top box to your display and prove that they are sending the missing channels in a tunable format.

2) If the set top box works I would ask for a new Cable Card.

3) If the new Cable Card didn't work I'd make the technician put the cable card in diagnostics mode and check the missing channels. I am making an assumption here that the Cable Cards operate with similar software downloaded from TW as their set top boxes. Both the Scientific Atlantic and Pace boxes I have used run on Pioneer software which has a diagnostics mode that can be used to see the status of each channel.

Good Luck !

microbob

10-06-05, 05:34 PM

WLWT-DT is having PSIP problems and is not mapped to 5.1-5.2. Also, WCVN-DT seems to be off the air as I haven't been getting a signal from them since before noon today.

Nitewatchman

10-06-05, 07:35 PM

WLWT-DT is having PSIP problems and is not mapped to 5.1-5.2. Also, WCVN-DT seems to be off the air as I haven't been getting a signal from them since before noon today.

Noticed that as well, WLWT-DT not remapping on Zenith HDV420, showing up as 35-1 and 35-2. I used to have their CE's(Shaun ? - forget his last name) contact info, and not sure but I don't think Shaun is there anymore. So, Will have to send an email about it to the engineering address on their website. Some Receiver's that save the virtual channel info only on their last channel scan may still be seeing it as 5.1/5.2.

It was down last time I checked earlier this afternoon, but WCVN-DT is back on air currently (7:20pm).

BTW, did you have any luck contacting Scripps Engineering/etc. about WCPO jaggies? Might be worth a shot, but personally I'm past the point of being sick and tired of trying to go to quite that much effort to try to help the stations out.

Along those lines though, a few years ago, I sent an email to the "askfox" address on the main Fox website about WXIX's "weirdscreen" Aspect ratio formatting problems for "Fox widescreen" feed at the time, and much to my surprise the next day I received an email from Fox Director of Network Operations ... We got about 3 emails deep in conversation about it(I noticed Andy Setos at Fox was forwarded our emails as well), and they got in contact with WXIX about it -- So, the Fox guys tried but, the problem never was completely "fixed" 100% until Fox Went HD with the "splicer" system.

microbob

10-06-05, 09:47 PM

BTW, did you have any luck contacting Scripps Engineering/etc. about WCPO jaggies? Might be worth a shot, but personally I'm past the point of being sick and tired of trying to go to quite that much effort to try to help the stations out.

Nothing yet. I'll let the board know if I can come up with a contact. It would be nice if SCRIPPS had a presence on the forum like Mr. HDTV AKA Sinclair. I did see an article on the net a few months ago that featured an interview with a SCRIPPS official who talked about the companies future plans for its stations regarding digital.

ItzMe

10-06-05, 11:04 PM

Is WLWT 5.1 down? My TIVO got nothing, no Will and Grace or ER :(
I seem to get all the other channels, so I don't think its me.

cokebear

10-06-05, 11:10 PM

I watched ER just fine on TW but had problems about half way through CSI and noticed that ABC was also not on at this time. All on TW.

microbob

10-06-05, 11:39 PM

Is WLWT 5.1 down? My TIVO got nothing, no Will and Grace or ER :(
I seem to get all the other channels, so I don't think its me.

They are having problems with PSIP. WLWT-DT is mapped at its actual channel 35-1 35-2 instead of 5-1 5-2. It is probably causing problems with TIVO and other DVR devices.

jim tressler

10-07-05, 08:58 AM

This should apply to WBQC-DT ...

http://broadcastengineering.com/newsletters/rfupdate/20051007/FCC-Class-A-20051007/

William Smith

10-07-05, 09:45 AM

WLWT-DT is having PSIP problems and is not mapped to 5.1-5.2. Also, WCVN-DT seems to be off the air as I haven't been getting a signal from them since before noon today.

There was a crew on the tower installing antennas.. we shut it down.

Nitewatchman

10-07-05, 10:21 AM

This should apply to WBQC-DT ...

http://broadcastengineering.com/newsletters/rfupdate/20051007/FCC-Class-A-20051007/

Concerning info in the article at link you posted --- The commission did in fact issue a Public notice on 10/4 saying they would now accept applications for low power stations to flash cut to digital on channel.

However, I believe there was some info that said WBQC had plans to seek a 2nd companion channel for digital. Perhaps they might change their mind about that, but The commission isn't accepting applications for that yet, but they did mention in the public notice that they expected to do so soon.

Here are a couple of quotes/paragraphs from the 10/4 LP FCC public notice :

quote:

Applications for Digital On-Channel Conversion

Effective immediately, LPTV and TV translator station licensees and permittees may file a minor facilities change application for an on-channel digital conversion of their currently authorized analog facilities (a “flash-cut” application). Such applications may be filed at any time. LPTV and TV translator stations seeking an on-channel digital conversion must electronically-file FCC Form 346. Class A TV stations were previously granted the authority to submit on-channel digital conversion applications and may continue to do so by electronically-filing FCC Form 301-CA.
:end quote

:quote

Future Companion Digital Channel Window

As set forth in the Report and Order, LPTV, TV translator and Class A TV licensees and permittees will be offered an opportunity in the future to submit applications for companion digital channels. For each station that seeks digital operation, the licensee or permittee must choose between an on-channel digital conversion of its analog station or operating a companion digital LPTV or TV translator station. Any station that has a license, construction permit, or pending application for on-channel digital conversion will not be eligible to submit an application for companion digital channel for the same station, and any such companion digital channel application will be dismissed. The companion digital channel window will be announced in the near future.

:end quote

You'll find all the info, including links to the full text of Public notice on FCC site under the 2nd "headline" listed for 10/4/04 date at FCC Media Bureau site, which is here :

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/

By the way, according to the new "rules" for LP DTV stations, the callsign designation won't be "WBQC-DT", for a class A station such as WBQC-CA, it will be WBQC-CD(for Class A digital), and for other LP DTV stations it will be xxxx-LD (for Low power digital), such as WOTH-LD for WOTH-LP.

Also The first 10/4 "headline" on that page has info+a new tentative channel designation list for 1st round of channel elections(which has been completed). The public notice on this also says that for those stations participating in 2nd round, they must file their 2nd round forum with FCC by Oct 24, 2005.(That's pretty quick!). All stations in Cincinnati/Dayton area won't be going on to 2nd or 3rd round of elections and all received tentative channel designations by end of first round - Meaning, it's extremely likely this is where they are going to end up after analog shut off. Here's the list of those tentative channel designations for Cincinnati/Dayton stations :

WCPO - 10
WKRC - 12
WPTD - 16
WCVN - 24
WBDT - 26
WPTO - 28
WXIX - 29
WRGT - 30
WSTR - 33
WCET - 34
WLWT - 35
WKOI - 39
WHIO - 41
WDTN - 50
WKEF - 51