Cincinnati, OH - HDTV [Text View] - Page 17

hpm123

10-22-05, 08:59 AM

Ok, I just got off the phone with a CSR at TW Cable. We had a very lengthy conversation.

He says I was misinformed to a certain extent. You can't get their standard HD channels with Lifeline. He also confirmed you have to subscribe to Digipac 1000 in order to get those channels and I believe the base HD channels are TNT, PBS and Discovery. He said that you CAN order the HD Tier when you subscribe to Lifeline. The HD Tier includes ESPN, INHD1, INHD2, HDNET and HDNET Movies.

So for $25 you get Lifeline (mostly locals), an HD STB, and the HD Tier.

If you want their base HD channels, he offered me a 1 year introductory cost of $47/month which includes Digipac 1000, all the base HD channels, and the HD Tier of channels. He also offered to continue the discount I'm receiving on Roadrunner for an additional year which would save me $15 a month. After a year, the cost goes up to $67 for the cable and $45 for Roadrunner.

He said that I could choose from a few different STB's and recommended that I visit a TW store to compare PQ and STB features. He mentioned a Pace STB and a Scientific - Atlantic. I would be interested in hearing about any recommendations.

Well, being ever the procrastinator I am, I finally decided to move on this this morning. Followed up on Scotts research as noted above, called TW and spoke to a rep who told me that I could indeed signup for the Lifeline+HD Tier service. He quoted me $26/mo. Told him I'd like to switch, he said let me transfer you to our service dept. Got speaking to the service rep, who said "Sir, that is not a valid option".. "But", I said, "I just spoke to someone who said I could do it, and I spoke to another CSR a few months back who said this is also a valid package".. She said, let me check one second. I was put on hold for a few minutes, she came back and said "Sir, this is not a valid option and I apologize if you were misinformed, but this is not a valid option".. I said your damn right I was misinformed! So they offered me $10 off my monthy HD DVR pricing (thrown out there for anyone so inclined)

Scott, appreciate your due diligence on this effort a few months back, but they're still saying you have to have some form of a digital package (DigiPic 1000) at a minimum to get any of their HD services. This issue I'm now officially burying. If anyone else out there was able to get this package, I would be interested in hearing.

On another note, where's the best place to shop/purchase for a QAM capable tuner and/or an OTA HD-tuner at the best price one can get. If anyone local has one they want to sell, I'm interested. I'm not a fan of Ebay due to you just don't know what you're truly getting, but if other folks have had favorable experiences purchasing these items from an Ebay'er, well, I'll reconsider. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Hal

dusterscott

10-22-05, 10:03 AM

hpm123

10-22-05, 11:25 AM

hpm123:

Thanks for the followup. I'm still OTA-only here. My $29.95 per month discounted Roadrunner deal ends at the end of this month so I've been thinking again about taking them up on their $47 offer for Digipac 1000, HD Basic, plus HD Tier. For $32 more than I will be paying for Roadrunner at the end of this month, I could start getting all their cable HD channels. I miss ESPN sometimes. I normally watch CBS HD programming plus college football and NFL games broadcast in HD so I don't see a lot of value for me in the extra $32 a month. Plus I still haven't been able to check out TWC's PQ. I probably mentioned this before, but a couple of months ago, I went over to TWC in Middletown to check out their HD PQ and it looked like crap. I'd like to see what I'm getting before I commit.

Scott - I just signed up for CinciBell's $20/mo DSL service promotion..should get my package Monday. I currently still have TW fullblown package w/ RR (I used to get all their channels for free as used to work for a cable co) Now runs me about $113 month as part of a promtion when I left my cable job. I get all the hbo's, showtimes, starz, etc and never watch any of 'em. I've never watched a showing of ER, Law and Order, CSI or any of those shows. They just don't interest me. If its not seinfeld, the news or sports, I'm usually not interested. I did however start watching 24 last year and enjoy that series. If it weren't for ESPN and TNT, I'd have dropped the service a long time ago. Trying to pare back on some monthly expenses, and going to go with OTA and the DSL service for a while. I'm sure I'll have some withdrawal pains not getting my Sunday evening football fix from ESPN, but will make me appreciate those CBS and FOX broadcasts all the more.. Do appreciate your efforts earlier on the Lifeline/HD Tier service.. but looks like a no-go from what I found out today -

microbob

10-22-05, 12:21 PM

Anybody notice how long WSTR-DT has been missing WB HD?

Wasn't any HD from them on Thursday or Tonight, haven't checked them in over a week otherwise. I did notice WB HD was fine from WBDT-DT Dayton Thur+Fri, BTW.

Wonder what's up with them - I'd try contacting them except I've never had any luck with that before.

Supernatural was in HD on Wednesday night. I've got an email replay from them last year when they first went HD. I'll email them again asking them whats up.

JunkyardDogg

10-24-05, 12:35 AM

I noticed that WKRC had a bar pop-up during the NFL games today displaying "THIS PROGRAM AVAILABLE IN HDTV ON WKRC-DT" Is this a new development? I was watching this on an analog tv.

cokebear

10-24-05, 12:53 AM

OK I got a trouble ticket in with TWC. They will be out Tue. I have started getting the problem with WXIX and Tube as well as WLWT and their weather channel. It seems to happen most in the early evening. It has cleared up for now and I expect to not be able to show the tech the problem when they get here. I hope I have a show recorded to show what it was doing and with any luck it will do it while they are checking it out.

Update.

It's spreading. There are channels all over that I'm having trouble with now. Even the analogs sometimes. Was going to watch something on speed channel and it started the dropouts. Thank god they are coming out Tuesday. I hope they bring a new receiver with them, if not I'm going to make them go get one.

rcweiss

10-24-05, 11:36 AM

I have been having trouble with some digital channels coming and going lately. Had time warner out and the guy told me they have been having several problems with some boxes because they are in the process of upgrading the system to simulcast all the analog stations along with all digital versions. If you have a box you will get all digital and no longer get analog but if you don't have a box you can still get the original analogs since they will not go away. Seems like a band width hog but thats what he said. Expects it to be up and going generally in December.

Nitewatchman

10-24-05, 12:43 PM

I noticed that WKRC had a bar pop-up during the NFL games today displaying "THIS PROGRAM AVAILABLE IN HDTV ON WKRC-DT" Is this a new development? I was watching this on an analog tv.

That's cool. I think I might have seen them do that during the fireworks one year(when they were doing them HD).

Rob mentioned the Bengals game would be HD during the Friday evening news as well -- It looked good(a bit better compression artifact wise+DD 5.1 on WHIO-DT though), BTW - We even got a few HD commercials ....

jim tressler

10-24-05, 12:51 PM

i'll bet weasel was working yesterday

cadet502

10-25-05, 07:14 PM

In the process of backing up to see a commercial that looked interesting, found a really odd thing going on with WKRC. We were watching WLWT in OTA HD with WKRC in SD on side by side. The second HD tuner was recording WKRC HD, and when we backed up to find the commercial, it wasn't there. We waited for another break in the action, and left both versions of WKRC up. They were showing different commercials on HD and SD.

I guess it makes sense, somebodys determined a different demographic for for the HD watchers.

cokebear

10-26-05, 12:44 AM

TWC tech came out today and replaced my box, talked me into running the cable differently too. No breakups so far and even all my PQ is better analog and digital as well. On a side note the tech did confirm that TWC is going to change their service and run all the channels that are analog on digital, this is supposed to happen in/around December. Dunn what this will do to them bandwidth wise but it seems to me that they would have upgraded to MPEG4 before trying to simultaneously broadcast 80 analog channels and duplicate them on digital.

consult

10-27-05, 11:56 AM

Is it me or has 64-1 been down? I have not been able to tune it in and the receiver has not been mapping to it.

luebster

10-27-05, 12:22 PM

I know it worked fine Tuesday night for Gilmore Girls.

Dimitriz

10-27-05, 03:22 PM

Well, just called TWC and some of us in Maineville will have to suffer another year of Adelphia... :( , the move is going to happen by the end of next year. :(
ohh well.. OTA here we go :)

microbob

10-27-05, 03:45 PM

Is it me or has 64-1 been down? I have not been able to tune it in and the receiver has not been mapping to it.

Signal is fine here. They did miss Smallville an a few other shows in HD last week but they seem to be on the ball so to speek this week with the HD switch.

Nitewatchman

10-30-05, 09:17 AM

A bit OT, but looks like W61DE (TBN LP analog translator, Cincinnati - I assume at some point they'll get a call sign change with 36 in the callsign) Has made their Move to Channel 36. They've been off air on 61 for the last couple of weeks, and I'm now seeing analog TBN on 36 from the South this morning. So, no digital flash cut for them yet.

I'm also seeing decent signals from Lexington stations this morning, therefore 36 is pretty messy with WTVQ(now presumed) tearing up W61DE on 36 ....

APorter

11-02-05, 11:22 AM

dc10forlife

11-02-05, 12:43 PM

Another note on Time Warner, I was told by tech that they are highly considering switching to SARA from Passport for software.

Also, I can confirm that the SA8300HD dvr has firewire ports activated. I was able to capture a couple of minutes of hd broadcast on computer. I'm having a problem with the MyTray program (thegreenbutton.com) and haven't been able to play with it lately.

What version of passport do you have on your box? I take it you live in Cincinnati. Are you using DVHS and the medivhs drivers available in the 1394 recording thread in the hardware forum?

I've got firewire outputs on my SA8300HD, but I thought that they had not been enabled. I've been actively capturing from my SA3250HD box.

microbob

11-02-05, 12:57 PM

bsherm

11-02-05, 01:08 PM

Just before noon today, WCPO was running the ABC HD Test loop showing video from NYC and other ABC programs. The audio was in 5.1 on my Yamaha RXV 995. I still saw some jaggies but at least they will be passing 5.1 audio from ABC tonight hopefully

So if you have 5.1 and close your eyes it will be almost like WCPO has real HD. :D

Sorry, couldn't resist, it's just my passive-aggressive attitude towards WCPO right now...

jim tressler

11-02-05, 01:09 PM

lol.. wkef out of dayton has 5.1 and is jaggie free - it took them about 4 days to get it working properly - the only complaints with then is that you get a momentary dropout every 20 minutes or so

jim

microbob

11-02-05, 01:18 PM

Well, it only took WCPO a year and a half to set up 5.1 audio maybe by 2007 we'll have jaggie free HD :)

JunkyardDogg

11-02-05, 08:35 PM

Looks like WXIX will not be doing Bearcat basketball in HD this year. Here is an email that I received.
My email:
Subject: Bearcat Basketball in HD

Dear Sir,
I wanted to know if WXIX-DT would be showing any UC Bearcat Basketball
games in HD. I know that many people with HDTVs enjoyed the games that
were broadcast last year and I hope that WXIX decides to do it again
this year.

Response:
Very very very expensive to do the games in HD and, at this point, there
is no advertiser support for an HD telecast. The games we did last year
were at no additional cost to us by the production truck company. We are
trying to work out a similar arrangement for some games this year.
However, I don't think they will be as accommodating. We will try to do
some, as long as I can operate the station within reasonable
costs....thanks for contacting us and I hope this explains our
position

jim tressler

11-02-05, 09:05 PM

damn that flower wearing, tree hugging liberal zimpher!

Dimitriz

11-03-05, 12:15 PM

damn that flower wearing, tree hugging liberal zimpher!

Couldnt agree more...

No huggs = no advertisers, no publicity for university, no $ = another hike in tuition.

Sounds like we have a real winner on our hands.

APorter

11-03-05, 04:05 PM

What version of passport do you have on your box? I take it you live in Cincinnati. Are you using DVHS and the medivhs drivers available in the 1394 recording thread in the hardware forum?

I'll have to check the version tonight. Last time I checked it was something like 1.8. I'm using the firewire to capture HD from copy freely stations onto my computer using a program a member of The Green Button built. The program is used within Media Center to capture the HD broadcast.

barrytest

11-03-05, 04:17 PM

Hello:

I have the following problem with my 50vs810. There is ONE stattion now where no picture appears. The screen shows the channel number 5-1 and after a while it displays weak signal or no signal present. All other HD channles work fine. I tried the standard cycle power, reset channel list and did an auto channel scan and still had the problem. One thing that happened is when I powered on the set it came up on channel 5-1 and I was not able to do anything with the remote except for power on/off. THe way I got out of this lock up problem was to power off, disconnect the antenna, power on and hten set the channel to something other than 5-1. It worked for getting back to the point where the other channels worked. There is another TV in the kitchen with the USDTV tuner hooked to it and 5-1and 5-2 work fine. Also on the Hitachi if the signal meter is brought up for 5-1 it is a solid 88-90 signal strength. My next step is to temporarily run the TV antenna hooked to the Kitchen setup and see if 5-1 will work. I doubt it will make a difference.

Does anyone in the Cincinnati area have a Hitachi 50VS810 and is it able to receive channels 5-1 or 5-2?

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Barry

JunkyardDogg

11-03-05, 08:08 PM

Just before noon today, WCPO was running the ABC HD Test loop showing video from NYC and other ABC programs. The audio was in 5.1 on my Yamaha RXV 995. I still saw some jaggies but at least they will be passing 5.1 audio from ABC tonight hopefully

So has anyone been watching WCPO-DT and listening to 5.1? If so, how does it sound? When I get home some time I will have to check it out. Also, are both WCPO and WKEF doing "Good Morning America" in HD? Is the switch between national and local pretty rough? I noticed that WLWT has gotten worse, from local breaks to national, seems audio cuts out for about 5 seconds. I don't think it that last year, maybe I am wrong.

microbob

11-03-05, 08:55 PM

They are not in 5.1 tonight :( and I'm not sure why they aren't since abc is showing Pirates of the Caribbean in HD. It looks like they were only testing it yesterday morning. I'm seeing a lip sync issue tonight as well.

The audio dropouts between commercials on WLWT have only been happening since they added channel 5.2 so I am not sure why that would cause problems.

I am out of the range of WKEF -DT so I can't say if they are running GMA in HD or not. I normaly don't watch them on my HD set anyway.

rickw6605

11-03-05, 10:23 PM

Does anyone in the Cincinnati area have a Hitachi 50VS810 and is it able to receive channels 5-1 or 5-2?

I'm experiencing the same condition on my Hitachi 50V720. With both of us experiencing the same condition at generally the same time makes me think that it's related to the tuner or the 5-1 broadcast or a combination of the two.

tbenson81

11-03-05, 10:23 PM

barrytest

11-03-05, 11:08 PM

I'm experiencing the same condition on my Hitachi 50V720. With both of us experiencing the same condition at generally the same time makes me think that it's related to the tuner or the 5-1 broadcast or a combination of the two.

I spoke with Hitachi and the only reco he had was to upgarde the firmware. I should receive it in about two weeks. Both of think it is a longshot that it will fix the problem.

I called CC and they are sending a tech out next week, maybe they will try replacing the tuner? I'll post the results. Thanks for responses so far.

Barry :confused:

Nitewatchman

11-04-05, 11:51 AM

As Robert said, WCPO-DT was sending DD 2.0 last night during the HD Movie.

WKEF-DT has had GMA HD the last two mornings when I checked it just after 8:30 but it's been SD both mornings on WCPO-DT, at least at that time. Noticed WCPO had their own ticker up at bottom of screen this morning instead of the ABC ticker that was HD on WKEF, maybe that's part of the issue.

slimm

11-04-05, 01:14 PM

This channel was horrible tonight during the Pitt vs Louisville game

Definitely looked like a bandwith issue. Pic was delayed and pixelated throughout

Anyone else notice?

Is TW aware of this or working on it

Tony

I noticed it also. It was so bad that I stopped watching it because it was starting to give me a headache. If it was a bandwidth issue, it was only with ESPN-HD because all the other HD channels were fine. BTW, I'm in Forest Park. I've watched today and haven't seen any of the problems that were occuring last night but what I've watched was not in HD. I'll watch tonight to see if the same thing happens. If so, I will definately give them a call.

Ray

barrytest

11-04-05, 08:52 PM

Hello:

I have the following problem with my 50vs810. There is ONE station now where no picture appears. The screen shows the channel number 5-1 and after a while it displays weak signal or no signal present. All other HD channles work fine. I tried the standard cycle power, reset channel list and did an auto channel scan and still had the problem. One thing that happened is when I powered on the set it came up on channel 5-1 and I was not able to do anything with the remote except for power on/off. THe way I got out of this lock up problem was to power off, disconnect the antenna, power on and hten set the channel to something other than 5-1. It worked for getting back to the point where the other channels worked. There is another TV in the kitchen with the USDTV tuner hooked to it and 5-1and 5-2 work fine. Also on the Hitachi if the signal meter is brought up for 5-1 it is a solid 88-90 signal strength. My next step is to temporarily run the TV antenna hooked to the Kitchen setup and see if 5-1 will work. I doubt it will make a difference.

Does anyone in the Cincinnati area have a Hitachi 50VS810 and is it able to receive channels 5-1 or 5-2?

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Barry

Well I tried an experiment with the working USDTV tuner. It was working fine for channels 5.1 and 5.2. I rescanned the tuner and now it does not get channels 5.1 or 5.2. :mad: just like the Hitachi
Does anyone have the phone number for WLWT's enginneering department? I would like to know what is going on.

Thanks,

Barry

Nitewatchman

11-05-05, 09:18 AM

You'll probably have to call their main number+ask for engineering. Contact info for WLWT here:

http://www.channelcincinnati.com/station/index.html

They used to have a email address there for the Engineering department as well, but I don't see it anymore.

FWIW, I noticed that early this week for a couple of days they weren't sending any PSIP info and were showing up at 35-1/35-2 --- But, I've been seeing them remapped to 5.x on all receivers here just fine since about mid-week or so. They are fine now but WCET-DT was in "blank screen mode" as well Monday or Tuesday and last night for a time -- Not sure if it was PSIP related, as I couldn't decode them at all, even without PSIP on 34.x. WXIX-DT had no video or audio on 19.1 past 10pm last night as well (19.2 was fine though), but they are good now....

So, at least the stations seem to be checking the DTV station at least every now and then these days ...

psm0110

11-07-05, 07:35 AM

Noticed a couple things with WKRC-DT yesterday. (a) they flashed a message "cbs did not make this game available in hdtv" at the start of the Bengals game. They must be getting calls - this is good!! (b) during Category 7 last night their radar subchannel 12-2 was running some sped-up footage of old storms. Freaked me out, I had to check 9-2 and 5-2 to see if it was real.

jim tressler

11-07-05, 07:50 AM

wcpo is now passing dd 5.1 along.. sounds identical to wkef dd5.1 - ie.. I had to turn the reciever up to a higher volume level to equal the "loudness" that whio or wxix produce..

and yes the jaggies are still there!!

jim

chrisirmo

11-07-05, 07:56 AM

wcpo is now passing dd 5.1 along.. sounds identical to wkef dd5.1 - ie.. I had to turn the reciever up to a higher volume level to equal the "loudness" that whio or wxix produce..
I noticed a few fairly severe audio dropouts when coming back from commercial breaks last night during Grey's Anatomy.

They're also not airing Good Morning America in HD.

jim tressler

11-07-05, 09:54 AM

gang - I am looking at getting an amp to add to my dayton antenna - the signal is ok, but I spilt it, so I want to amp it a little bit.. what is recomended - a true amp or just and inline amp?

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103094&cp=&pg=4&kw=antenna&numProdsPerPage=20&parentPage=search

or something like this

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103093&cp=&pg=6&y=7&s=D-StorePrice-RSK&x=7&kw=antenna&parentPage=search

or this

http://www.channelmaster.com/Pages/TVS/DistributnAmps.htm

or this?

http://www.channelmaster.com/Pages/TVS/ChannelMax.htm

or this .. generic amp?
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103913&cp=&pg=9&y=7&kw=antenna&x=7&s=D-StorePrice-RSK&parentPage=search
or this
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103092&cp=2032057.2032187.2032188.2032195&allCount=24&fbn=Type%2FAmplifiers&f=PAD%2FProduct+Type%2FAmplifiers&fbc=1&parentPage=family

thanks for any advice!

jim

dusterscott

11-07-05, 10:26 AM

Jim,

I use the last one on your list with good results.

terryfoster

11-07-05, 10:29 AM

I noticed a few fairly severe audio dropouts when coming back from commercial breaks last night during Grey's Anatomy.
That is when they switched from 2.0 to 5.1 when coming back from breaks. I first noticed 5.1 in the middle of Desperate Housewives when the guy got shot.

JoeSchueller

11-07-05, 03:36 PM

I'm looking for some advice from anyone out there with experience with DirecTV's HR10-250's OTA tuner(s).

I live in NKY, about 10 miles from all the towers (according to antennaweb). I get decent OTA reception of the major networks with an old rabbit-ears antenna, but I've found that results can be very spotty. A set-up that works perfectly one day, suddenly struggles badly the next. I've also found it difficult to balance reception of WLWT, WCPO, WKRC, and WXIX.

I'm considering an upgrade to a more "directional" antenna (like a silver sensor or Terk HDTVi), or possibly putting a larger antenna in my attic (no desire for an outdoor solution). Any insights or advice? Any particular models to look for or avoid?

My main issue is that I need reliability. I can't be constantly tuning to optimize for a given station, because at any time, I may be recording up to 2 stations and certainly recording shows when I'm not right there to do the fine tuning.

Nitewatchman

11-07-05, 06:50 PM

gang - I am looking at getting an amp to add to my dayton antenna - the signal is ok, but I spilt it, so I want to amp it a little bit.. what is recomended - a true amp or just and inline amp?

[/url]

or this?

http://www.channelmaster.com/Pages/TVS/ChannelMax.htm

Out of all the ones you listed, that would be the best one to get for antenna. You put it right on the mast, a few feet away from antenna, a power inserter placed inside sends power to the amp via the coax. Also Since it's a 300 ohm input, even the 300Ohm~75Ohm conversion inside the preamp is probably going to be better across the band(as far as insertion loss goes) than what you'd get with a ferrite-core Balun(matching transformer) you're probably using now. I don't know if it is true or not, but I've heard a Mast mount preamp might also improve VSWR(voltage standing wave ratio), and if the amp has a lower noise figure than your receiver(probably does, but don't know), also improve SNR overall for all stations.

Most of the RS amps you listed have quite a high noise figure, and most reports indicate they are easily overloaded(not to say they might not help you out as well, it's still possible). There are higher gain mast mount preamps, such as CM7777/etc, but for your location a "mid-gain" preamp such as CM3039 would probably be a good choice.

Nitewatchman

11-07-05, 07:05 PM

I'm considering an upgrade to a more "directional" antenna (like a silver sensor or Terk HDTVi), or possibly putting a larger antenna in my attic (no desire for an outdoor solution). Any insights or advice? Any particular models to look for or avoid?

Sounds like a good plan if you're limiting yourself to an indoor antenna. Keep in mind, WCPO-DT transmits on VHF, Silver Sensor is UHF only. As it stands now, WKRC-DT will also be moving to VHF 12 after analog shut off. If I recall correctly think the HDTVi has VHF rabbit ears in addition to the UHF log periodic section, you can of course use a VHF/UHF combiner such as CM#0549 to hook a Silver Sensor and your current VHF rabbit ears together.

Oftentimes, finding a "sweet spot" for good reception is very important, especially for indoor antenna. Oftentimes(but not allways), getting the antenna near a window on the side of the house facing the towers can be a good "sweet spot".

For the attic, I'd probably get the biggest "outdoor" VHF/UHF combo antenna that will fit - (RS VU90, VU120, CM3016/CM3018 are all inexpensive but very "effective" antennas) Carry a small TV up with you into the attic to find a "sweet spot" for it as well when you are adjusting it .... Just remember, attics(and most other spots indoors) are usually Multipath nightmares, and can be interference problems as well if there is a lot of wiring/cabling nearby - especially where electrical interference+VHF is concerned .... Not only that, but putting the antenna indoors(as rule of thumb - could be a bit less near a window, more elsewhere) is going to attenuate the signals by at least around 20db ...

My main issue is that I need reliability. I can't be constantly tuning to optimize for a given station, because at any time, I may be recording up to 2 stations and certainly recording shows when I'm not right there to do the fine tuning.

Well, hopefully you'll run into some luck with an indoor antenna, however if reliability is your main issue, I know you don't want to hear this but It would probably be best to pick up a RS-VU90 or something similiar and mount it outside, aimed towards Cincinnati .... Your Sat Dish HAS to be outside, and Yagi's are prettier than Dishes anyway :)

Half Baked

11-07-05, 07:10 PM

Anyone having trouble picking up WLWT-digital OTA (5.1/5.2) displays a signal meter icon, but no picture or sound

Nitewatchman

11-07-05, 07:21 PM

Just checked WLWT-DT here at 7:17Pm No problems, everything is decoding just fine+remapping to 5.1/5.2.

As I noted earlier, they weren't sending PSIP for a couple of days about a week ago, so if they've changed their PSIP configuration since the last time you did an autoscan, depending upon your receiver model you may need to do a channel rescan to be able to decode them.

Or, judging by the reports from folks with Hitachi sets, perhaps they are still having a PSIP issue which may be causing some receivers to not be able to decode them. If so, hopefully someone will be able to get the message through to their engineering dept.

Another thing you can try, If your receiver lets you do this(most don't, but some do), you might try "bypassing" PSIP and using MPEG program info only by tuning directly to 35.1/35.2.

Some receivers keep their own Virtual Channel table and only update it for stations when you do a channel scan, some receivers rely soley on the Stations PSIP VCT and update every time you tune to a station. Some receivers "mix" their reliance on a stations PSIP,(and or MPEGII program # info from PMT/PAT) with D*'s EPG info(which uses the stations PSIP remapped virtual channel #'s) ....

cokebear

11-07-05, 07:23 PM

Most of you have been keeping up with this but I thought it wouldn't hurt to make a post. http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/20051107/tc_pcworld/123440

Paul210

11-07-05, 07:26 PM

Hey, 19-2 is gone, and The Tube is gone with it! :(

Nitewatchman

11-07-05, 08:08 PM

Probably spilled Coffee on the SD encoder or PSIP generator or something, unless the tube went belly up -- WXIX is still on their "where to watch list" on thetubetv.com website .....

Anyway, notice FOX HD feed is missing from WXIX-DT as of 8:07PM EDT as well ... FOX HD fine from WRGT-DT ... Not the first time that's happened lately ....

microbob

11-07-05, 08:13 PM

Just checked WLWT-DT here at 7:17Pm No problems, everything is decoding just fine+remapping to 5.1/5.2.

No audio during Surface tonight. Audio was fine just before 8PM.

Just went to black screen....Oh now its back with still no sound

Nitewatchman

11-07-05, 08:21 PM

No audio during Surface tonight. Audio was fine just before 8PM.

Yep. FWIW, it's not Nat'l BTW, NBC HD+Audio fine from WDTN-DT.

When it rains it pours I guess .....

Update: 8:20pm -- (update #2 - just saw your update looks like we saw the same thing) ... Well, looks like they are trying to work on it ... from 8:18~8:20 nothing would decode from WLWT-DT == Not audio, not video, not PSIP, not even MPEG program info on 35-1/2 ,although the RF signal was fine ... At 8:20pm, Everythiing came back except audio on 5.1 ....

Update#3: 8:25pm -- What do you know ... Audio up from WLWT-DT 5.1 now ... WXIX-DT has Fox HD feed up now too ....

Along with WKRC's "this game was not made available in HDTV" for the Bengals game, maybe these are finally some good signs that at least some stations in the area are finally starting to pay attention to their DTV/HD stations ....

brainguy

11-07-05, 08:25 PM

Same here...I am getting sporadic reception from Dayton...but absolutely nothing from Cincinnati...this suxx...anyone know what's happening? NBC is having issues since yesterday. :(

Update @ 8:27 PM: Audio just came back...the ads are going on and still can hear the audio. Let's hope it stays the same way!

Yep. FWIW, it's not Nat'l BTW, NBC HD+Audio fine from WDTN-DT.

When it rains it pours I guess .....

Update: 8:20pm -- (update #2 - just saw your update looks like we saw the same thing) ... Well, looks like they are trying to work on it ... from 8:18~8:20 nothing would decode from WLWT-DT == Not audio, not video, not PSIP, not even MPEG program info on 35-1/2 ,although the RF signal was fine ... At 8:20pm, Everythiing came back except audio on 5.1 ....

barrytest

11-07-05, 08:26 PM

Anyone having trouble picking up WLWT-digital OTA (5.1/5.2) displays a signal meter icon, but no picture or sound

I spoke with a WLW-T engineer today and he informed me things were OK. They have an older model HDTV for a monitor and it was working. He also checked the PSIP table and it was OK. He also informed me they were running at reduced power however for me that does not appear to be a factor since the signal bar reads high and steady for both sets. One experiment I tried was to leave the USDTV tuner unplugged for over 30 minutes. When it was powered back up 5.1 and 5.2 still did not work even after doing a rescan. I am having the very same problem with two different sets, 1. Hitachi 50VS810 and 2. USDTV tuner. For others out there that cannot get 5.1 or 5.2 what tv or tuner model do you have? I am willing to create a list and email it to them so they know which sets will not decode with there current setup. I have never had problems receiving 5.1 or 5.2 in the past on either set.

On the Hitachi if I enter 35.1 or 35.2 it just remaps to 5.1 or 5.2. It is not possible to do this experiment on the USDTV tuner.

Barry

Half Baked

11-07-05, 09:04 PM

I spoke with a WLW-T engineer today and he informed me things were OK. They have an older model HDTV for a monitor and it was working. He also checked the PSIP table and it was OK. He also informed me they were running at reduced power however for me that does not appear to be a factor since the signal bar reads high and steady for both sets. One experiment I tried was to leave the USDTV tuner unplugged for over 30 minutes. When it was powered back up 5.1 and 5.2 still did not work even after doing a rescan. I am having the very same problem with two different sets, 1. Hitachi 50VS810 and 2. USDTV tuner. For others out there that cannot get 5.1 or 5.2 what tv or tuner model do you have? I am willing to create a list and email it to them so they know which sets will not decode with there current setup. I have never had problems receiving 5.1 or 5.2 in the past on either set.

On the Hitachi if I enter 35.1 or 35.2 it just remaps to 5.1 or 5.2. It is not possible to do this experiment on the USDTV tuner.

Barry

I get the same as you on a Toshiba 52hm95.
I've tried the same as you by going to 35.1 and 35.2 and it remaps to 5.1 & 5.2 also with nothing

rickw6605

11-07-05, 09:09 PM

Hitachi here as well. I did a reset and a rescan. I can see what show is being broadcast on 5.1 and 5.2 and whether it's 1080i, 720p, etc. I cannot get sound or a picture.

I tried unplugging the set and letting it sit for 10 minutes (this worked on my old Hitachi CRT set). Didn't work.

Nitewatchman - What does PSIP stand for?

Nitewatchman

11-07-05, 09:13 PM

If it's not something going on with PSIP(I'm still not convinced it might not be), seems like some sort of encoder or decoder bug/MPEG2 encoding/decoding issue perhaps? I do know a few folks with hitatchi sets have reported similair problems at times with some of the Dayton stations on the Dayton thread ......

I wonder though what has changed with WLWT-DT, as my USDTV receiver USED to decode WLWT-DT just fine although it's been quite a while since I checked it with WLWT-DT ...

Anyway if it helps your list + reports to WLWT engineer any:

Zenith HDV420:

PSIP is working from WLWT-DT on my Zenith HDV420 currently, channel remapping working fine, and even to the extent that EIA-708 captions are working. Some stations haven't even figured out how to do that right yet. The HDV420 is one of those receivers which checks a stations PSIP and uses the current "version" every time you tune to that station. It does not support EPG via PSIP, nor does it use PSIP STT(time/date).

Sony KD-34XBR960:

I can use either 35.1/35.2 or PSIP+5.1/5.1 on internal tuner in Sony KD-34XBR960 (I thought it used the same ATI chipset for ATSC the USDTV box used, but I could be wrong), and last I looked it was/has been working fine either way, and has been picking up EPG info from EIT from WLWT-DT. It doesn't "reset" it's internal VCT for the remapping however unless you do a channel rescan(the same thing goes for USDTV/Hisense DB-2010), which I haven't, and for instance, WLWT-DT could still show up and "work" on 5.1/5.2 even if they were sending absolutely NO PSIP info - although of course there would be no EPG info(Unlike the USDTV, It doesn't even use STT, all it shows EPG wise from EIT is the current program that is airing). In it's service menu, the Sony has a section which provides a little extra info about what it's getting ATSC(or QAm)/MPEG2/PSIP wise from station, including some info on the PSIP tables ... If I get a chance, I'll snap a screenshot of what it says about the PSIP tables from WLWT-DT ...

USDTV/Hisense DB-2010 :

I normally use a USDTV (hisense DB-2010) receiver in a bedroom and it's only hooked to Dayton antenna, but I was curious so just made a trip to attic and swapped around connections/coax feeds for it to hook it up to Cincinnati antenna to check it with WLWT-DT .... I used "add channel" function to scan in channel 35, and am getting the same thing as barrytest -- Neither audio or video will decode on 5.1 or 5.2, although the RF signal is fine. It does seem notable that it did pick up the PSIP VCT info from the station to show that it's remapped to 5.1/5.2 and it also picked up WLWT-HD and WLWT-WX (I think that's from ETT or EIT but I'm a little rusty on it and would have to look it up), BUT it is not picking up Program guide info from EIT .. Just shows "no information" in the guide for 5.1 or 5.2, and although RF signal is fine it reports 5.1 and 5.2 are "not on the air" ..... LOL ...

Nitewatchman

11-07-05, 09:49 PM

Nitewatchman - What does PSIP stand for?

IMO, for several reasons .... I still think it stands for ..... "Pretty Stupid Information Protocol" ;)

But seriously, what it really stands for is "Program and System Information Protocol" ...

It was "glued on" to the DTV standard mostly(IMO) to create a means for stations to keep their existing channel branding(what they have their analog channel, channel logos/etc) for DTV after the transistion is over no matter what actual channel they are transmitting on. PSIP is NOT necessary in any shape or form for OTA DTV/HD to work -(It didn't become a requirement for stations to use it until earlier this year) well, except for with receiver models which were unfortunately designed to "need" proper PSIP to work ..

PSIP is supposedly SUPPOSED to also make the DTV transistion less confusing for viewers(so they can use the same channel #'s they are used to with their analog TV to get to the same station), but I fear in the case of some OTA viewers at least it is going to end up causing MORE confusion .... What antenna do I need(UHF/VHF/etc), Why can't I get WRGT-DT 45.1 (30 actual) Dayton from N KY and across the river from WXIX-DT 19.1 (29 actual) tower when I can get all the other Dayton stations ... Heck, you can't even GET the PSIP info from the station to "tune to the right channel" until you get a LOCK on the signal first when adjusting your "rabbit ears", so you need to punch in the RF channel to "find it" first if you're not getting a lock to the extent the auto channel scan found it ... THEN there are the differing ways different current models of receiver's handle PSIP, and also the problems stations have had concerning properly (and continously) implementing PSIP on their end ...

Sorry for the ranting, there's no point to it really, as PSIP ain't going away. In fact, FCC rules now require stations to use PSIP to REMAP to their existing analog channel #, even after the transistion is over, and no matter WHAT channel they actually end up on - whether or not the station actually wants to do it that way. If I recall correctly, I think It's needed for EIA-708 captions(the "new" captioning standard for DTV), and it does offer some actual benefits ... STT(time/date info from all stations), and EPG info via OTA for instance .....

Anyway, You can find more "offical" answers to your questions at the following "fun" PSIP links :

ATSC's PSIP FAQ is here :

http://www.atsc.org/faq/faq_psip.html

You can find more info and can download the white papers with technical info on PSIP here:

http://www.psip.org/

Or here :

http://www.atsc.org/standards/a65b.html

Info on the required PID change which went into effect in Jan 05 and although is a MPEG2 thing is related to PSIP/channel tuning(especailly when stations didn't "get it right", which many, including some in our area did not) for many receivers as well:

http://www.atsc.org/pid_changeinfo.html

Nitewatchman

11-07-05, 10:48 PM

I spoke with a WLW-T engineer today and he informed me things were OK .......<snip> He also checked the PSIP table and it was OK. Barry

Might be a long shot, but just a thought .... you might want to ask him about their PMT (This is MPEGII program management table) ..

As, I mentioned I'd try earlier, I turned on a special "info" screen on my Sony KD-34XBR960, and unlike all other digital stations in the area, I think it seems to be saying it's internal ATSC receiver is not getting proper PMT info from WLWT-DT. I've never tried to use this to diagnose any problems before though, and it is decoding just fine on this TV.

Couple of screenshots attached. Descriptions follow.

In the left frame of "wlwtxbr960info.jpg", you see a line labled "PSI" with the abbreviations used for MPEGII PAT/PMT tables, as well as the PSIP table abbreviations(MGT, TVCT, CVCT, EIT, ETT+STT next to it -- If I remember right, CVCT is a table in PSIP that allows stations to send an alternate virtual channel table to cable companies)... As you can see, "PMT" is NOT lit up in green, unlike is the case for all 14 other DTV stations in Cincinnati/Dayton currently -- Exceptions being WCVN-DT ONLY on 54.5 and 54.6 (which are not currently active with programming) which are instead lit up in Yellow. At right is a bit of other interesting info I got when tuned to WLWT-DT from the ATSC receiver from other screens.

For comparison "wcvnxbr960info.jpg" shows the same "screen" as the left part of the above, but this time when tuned to WCVN-DT 54.4 (KET4, with HD programming airing currently). As you can see, PMT is lit up in Green ....

Might not mean anything, but then again PMT seems to be working for all other stations in the area(lit up in green), and all other stations but WLWT-DT are decoding just fine on USDTV receiver ..... I'd think PMT is something that should be properly configured at a station, who knows, perhaps if it is not(which I have no way of knowing for sure with my equipment, but) I'd think it possible some receivers might have problems ....

rickw6605

11-08-05, 08:44 AM

Jeff, Thanks for the response and the links.

Sea Ray

11-08-05, 09:11 AM

That is when they switched from 2.0 to 5.1 when coming back from breaks. I first noticed 5.1 in the middle of Desperate Housewives when the guy got shot.

I was pleasantly surprised to see MNF in 5.1 last night. First time that's happened that I can recall. It does seem like they're still getting the kinks out as I too noticed audio dropout as they went in and out of commercials and there was a slight lip sinc issue.

Is this recent change to 5.1 ABC's doing or is WCPO the reason we're getting it now?

jim tressler

11-08-05, 11:19 AM

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6495130#post6495130

talk about the potential to kill bandwith - herst argyle is WLWT...

Betting on less for less

Figures like these have emboldened executives at a new company, U.S. Digital Television, to bet they can make a tidy profit by charging consumers less for a slimmed-down basket of programming.

The company will lease digital broadcast capacity from local TV stations and offer 30 channels — including local stations, ESPN, Fox News and The Disney Channel — over the air for about $20 a month.

"There are millions of homes that believe cable offers more than they want to watch, and they're looking for a low-cost alternative," says CEO Steve Lindsley. "This is a value proposition."

USDTV plans to announce before the holidays the cities where it will launch commercially. It got a $25.8 million investment in September from station groups including Fox, Hearst-Argyle and McGraw-Hill and has been testing in Salt Lake City, Albuquerque and Las Vegas.

6speed

11-08-05, 11:24 AM

MNF did sound good last night,kudos to WCPO for the 5.1...now about that video problem :eek: also kudos to WKRC for their timely switch back to the network feeds,all my HDTivo recordings have been perfect.

dusterscott

11-08-05, 11:32 AM

I don't need locals from cable :) I already get those OTA. How about a national HD channels package for $20 a month?

terryfoster

11-08-05, 12:20 PM

I was pleasantly surprised to see MNF in 5.1 last night. First time that's happened that I can recall. It does seem like they're still getting the kinks out as I too noticed audio dropout as they went in and out of commercials and there was a slight lip sinc issue.

Is this recent change to 5.1 CBS' doing or is WCPO the reason we're getting it now?

If by CBS you mean ABC, no WCPO has recently added 5.1 audio to their broadcast. ABC has been broadcasting 5.1 for awhile now.

Sea Ray

11-08-05, 02:23 PM

If by CBS you mean ABC, no WCPO has recently added 5.1 audio to their broadcast. ABC has been broadcasting 5.1 for awhile now.

Thanks for the correction. Yes, I meant ABC and my error has been edited. So WCPO was a little late to the 5.1 club but glad to see it nevertheless.

As for CBS, I've never seen 5.1 on a WKRC broadcast. Is that an affiliate issue too?

JoeSchueller

11-08-05, 02:28 PM

Well, hopefully you'll run into some luck with an indoor antenna, however if reliability is your main issue, I know you don't want to hear this but It would probably be best to pick up a RS-VU90 or something similiar and mount it outside, aimed towards Cincinnati .... Your Sat Dish HAS to be outside, and Yagi's are prettier than Dishes anyway :)

No kiddin the dish is fugly, but my wife likes D* and I have it well hidden, so it is tolerated. The issue in NKY is that the dish is well hidden on the SOUTH side of the house, so no clear shot to the north and the Cincinnati towers. Luckily, I researched on my own that the Silver Sensor would have bummed me out with no VHF help, so I didn't waste the bucks on that solution.

I'm going to give the Terk HDTVi first crack at it. I think I can find a subtle place to hide it near the rcv'er and Buy.com has it pretty cheap. My next shot will probably be the Radio Shack 15-1880. If that's a bummer, it is up to the attic, and I'll be back looking for a bunch of multipath advice ;-)

THANKS for the help :-)

psm0110

11-08-05, 08:57 PM

USDTV plans to announce before the holidays the cities where it will launch commercially. It got a $25.8 million investment in September from station groups including Fox, Hearst-Argyle and McGraw-Hill and has been testing in Salt Lake City, Albuquerque and Las Vegas.
USDTV has been discussed frequently in the other forums. The best we can hope for here is that being the 32nd or so market, that they concentrate on the bigger markets first. And if we're not lucky, I erect the most massive antenna you've ever seen to pull in Dayton, Lexington, Louisville and Columbus.

Sea Ray

11-08-05, 11:00 PM

USDTV has been discussed frequently in the other forums. The best we can hope for here is that being the 32nd or so market, that they concentrate on the bigger markets first. And if we're not lucky, I erect the most massive antenna you've ever seen to pull in Dayton, Lexington, Louisville and Columbus.

I don't know if they'll bring such a service to our small market or not, but it seems to me that such a service is targeted to the "frugal" customer and I think that fits Cincinnati to a T. There are a lot of folks in this city who still have their first nickel...my parents included...

jim tressler

11-09-05, 09:00 PM

well.. my dayton channels are crap tonight.. they are in and out of lock... signal strenghts suck.. any thoughts? what was a great signal over the summer has turned to crap this fall...

Half Baked

11-09-05, 09:29 PM

Talked to a wlwt engineer today and he told me that they were having problems with the digital signal (5.1/5.2) due to a blown tube, they were only broadcasting at about 50% power (digital signal) so that if you live outside the 275 loop you may have trouble picking up the signal.
He stated that the tube went bad around last thursday, that a new one had been ordered at a cost of around 35 grand and should be back in service in the next 7 to 10 days

MarcW

11-09-05, 09:45 PM

Is anybody else having volume problems with their Time Warner 8300HD? I've had mine for about a year and it's been working OK. But since last week the audio levels on digital out are all out of whack. The DVR is hooked up via digital coax to my Denon 5803. I'm running it in Dolby PLII mode for the most part and I've noticed that all of a sudden all channels have a -4db dialog normalization that I have never noticed before. Comedy Central is the worst channel volume wise. The audio is so low that I have to crank the Denon way up just to get blasted out of my seat when the commercials come on. This happens both with recorded shows as well as live TV. I've checked the firmware on the box but it hasn't been upgraded in months. Is it possible that somebody is screwing things up on the head-end?

-MarcW

JunkyardDogg

11-10-05, 02:00 AM

I noticed that WCPODT.com was updated recently:

5.1 Audio Now Available!

As of 11/07/05, WCPO-DT is now broadcasting in 5.1 Dolby Surround Sound! Many but not all ABC shows will be available in this audio format. Please let us know what you think.

We are also planning an upgrade in the first half of the year that will enable our control room to automatically switch to 5.1 audio whenever it is present. (Currently, it's a manual process.)

Drop an e-mail to jmartinelli@wcpo.com if you have comments about the upgraded audio.

Video Upgrades Planned For 2006

We're planning to install a new ATSC encoder in the first half of 2006. It will greatly improve the quality of WCPO's HD video signal.

"We'll have the best signal that you can possibly have for HDTV. It's state-of-the-art," said WCPO's director or engineering, Joe Martinelli.

Local HDTV Audience Estimates

Based on our "educated guessing", up to 30,000 people in the Tri-state area have HDTVs as of November 2005. We're basing this number on (again, this is completely non-scientific!) cable HDTV subscriber figures as well as general "nosing around". In other words, this is our own estimate and there's really no real way to tell. What do you think the estimate is?

I would recommend dropping an email and letting WCPO about the quality of 5.1 sound and tell them that the picture looks terrible.

jim tressler

11-10-05, 09:42 AM

rcweiss

11-10-05, 10:46 AM

Sea Ray

11-10-05, 11:22 AM

I noticed that WCPODT.com was updated recently:

5.1 Audio Now Available!

As of 11/07/05, WCPO-DT is now broadcasting in 5.1 Dolby Surround Sound! Many but not all ABC shows will be available in this audio format.

OK, so they did just start this on Monday.

Any thoughts as to whether their encoder upgrade will cure the "jaggie" problem?

jim tressler

11-10-05, 11:34 AM

they tested it last week and rolled it out sunday I believe.. dh and grey's annotomy were 5.1 for the few seconds I watched.. jaggies are the same.. and according to martenelli -the new encoder should solve the problem.. but this is the same encoder they have been promising us for 2 years..

jim

dusterscott

11-10-05, 12:23 PM

I sent some feedback to Joe this morning and received a reply stating the encoder will be installed Q1 of 2006.

terryfoster

11-10-05, 12:49 PM

they have also updated the list of movies and 1 time shows.. this is progress.. but still not enough.. what's the line on if they will have the new atsc encoder up and running in 2006? Wonder if vegas will take that bet.. lol

Look at it this way, they have actually published that they plan on replacing the encoder in the first half of 2006. They have never done this before. Even when I called about the jaggie problem in August, the engineer had no idea there was a plan to replace equipment, so I think this is a really good move.

You all may want to lay off WCPO until the end of Q1 2006 because they are probably waiting until then because of budgetary reasons. Complaining up until the day they replace the encoder will probably only piss them off.

Dimitriz

11-10-05, 12:52 PM

MarcW

11-10-05, 01:09 PM

MarkW

I am seeing the same thing with the audio on the 8300 so it must be systemic and not the box. I know they are in the process of upgrading the system for digital simulcast so maybe that is causing some issues.

Bob

Thanks for the feedback Bob. Nothing worse than pulling your hair out trying to troubleshoot the problem just to find out it's the head-ends fault.

Is the WCPO 5.1 audio passed onto Time Warner or is it OTA only? I don't recall Grey's Anatomy being in 5.1 last Sunday.

-MarcW

Sea Ray

11-10-05, 01:53 PM

Thanks for the feedback Bob. Nothing worse than pulling your hair out trying to troubleshoot the problem just to find out it's the head-ends fault.

Is the WCPO 5.1 audio passed onto Time Warner or is it OTA only? I don't recall Grey's Anatomy being in 5.1 last Sunday.

-MarcW

The 5.1 is being passed onto Time Warner.

JunkyardDogg

11-10-05, 05:39 PM

Hey guys, since my house will be done in a few weeks, I am picking parts up to install my OTA.

So far I am getting:
Channel Master CM3020
and
Channel Master CM9521A Complete Antenna Rotator Kit

I was thinking about putting a telescoping mast in the back of my house since my house is a ranch and I do have tall trees behind it. What I was thinking is getting a mast that I could extend in height should I have the need for it.
ChannelMaster lists some telescoping masts 1830 (30') and 1840 (40') that I am looking at, but no description on either. I found 1830 at ACE Hardware website for like $50, but no description at all. (I am leaning towards 30', as the other one will stand out)

Does anyone know if there any other places that make antennas like that? I am also assuming that words "telescoping mast" means that it can be raised/lowered within 10-30min job.
Any other suggestions on this?

Thanks

I used the 1830 when I lived in Iowa. I actually had it on my roof, so I had a tower that was 50 ft off of the ground. I will tell you one thing, get a tall latter and make sure the thing has guy wires. Don't make them too tight, just taut, it is important that the tower can move a little bit. I have a story from my grandfather who put a 50ft tower on top of his 2 story house. This was early in the tv age, about 1949-1950, and he used turnbuckles on the tower. Well a strong wind came and took down the thing a couple weeks later. So just be careful, pick a day with low wind. Make sure no children are around because you might share some choice words while doing this.

Nitewatchman

11-10-05, 06:04 PM

I noticed that WCPODT.com was updated recently:

5.1 Audio Now Available!

As of 11/07/05, WCPO-DT is now broadcasting in 5.1 Dolby Surround Sound! Many but not all ABC shows will be available in this audio format. Please let us know what you think.

1st post of this thread with station info updated accordingly. Someone else can post the update this time in the "The Official AVS List of all DTV stations broadcasting HDTV / DD5.1" thread, which is here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=422073&page=1&pp=30

JunkyardDogg

11-10-05, 06:49 PM

I can get that one updated.

Sea Ray

11-10-05, 10:11 PM

WCPO 5.1 is nice but I am getting lip synch issues with it via TWC. Anyone else having these problems or is the video nicely matched to the audio?

jim tressler

11-10-05, 10:14 PM

dimitriz - dont know if you have been reading my saga.. but ever since the leaves fell my dayton stations are very suseptible to wind.. on windy nights it goes to hell in a handbasket.. 2,7, and 22 are watchable with many (every 5 minutes or so) dropouts and 45 is unwatchable.. so I am going to add an amp and try and tweak the location..

tonight is a decent night, so all is well on 2,7, and 22 - no dropouts.. but 45 sucks.. let me know how things go for you

jim

Hey guys, since my house will be done in a few weeks, I am picking parts up to install my OTA.

So far I am getting:
Channel Master CM3020
and
Channel Master CM9521A Complete Antenna Rotator Kit

I was thinking about putting a telescoping mast in the back of my house since my house is a ranch and I do have tall trees behind it. What I was thinking is getting a mast that I could extend in height should I have the need for it.
ChannelMaster lists some telescoping masts 1830 (30') and 1840 (40') that I am looking at, but no description on either. I found 1830 at ACE Hardware website for like $50, but no description at all. (I am leaning towards 30', as the other one will stand out)

Does anyone know if there any other places that make antennas like that? I am also assuming that words "telescoping mast" means that it can be raised/lowered within 10-30min job.
Any other suggestions on this?

Thanks

terryfoster

11-11-05, 01:43 PM

WCPO 5.1 is nice but I am getting lip synch issues with it via TWC. Anyone else having these problems or is the video nicely matched to the audio?
I haven't noticed any lip synch problems on my 8300HD.

Nitewatchman

11-11-05, 07:38 PM

Heard from WLWT today, they said WLWT-DT should be at Full power now, and the PSIP issue should be fixed.

Sure enough, USDTV/Hisense DB-2010 is now decoding Video/Audio from WLWT-DT (5.1+5.2) just fine, and Info from internal ATSC receiver in Sony KD-34XBR960 now shows PMT as active, as well as PAT and all necessary PSIP tables.

barrytest

11-11-05, 07:43 PM

Thanks for interesting info. At this time WLWT 5.1 and 5.2 are working for both the Hitachi and the USDTV tuner. I noticed this around 5:30PM today. Hopefully the firmwae updates for both the Hitachi and USDTV tuner will present this problem in the future. :cool:

Thanks,

Barry
Might be a long shot, but just a thought .... you might want to ask him about their PMT (This is MPEGII program management table) ..

As, I mentioned I'd try earlier, I turned on a special "info" screen on my Sony KD-34XBR960, and unlike all other digital stations in the area, I think it seems to be saying it's internal ATSC receiver is not getting proper PMT info from WLWT-DT. I've never tried to use this to diagnose any problems before though, and it is decoding just fine on this TV.

Couple of screenshots attached. Descriptions follow.

In the left frame of "wlwtxbr960info.jpg", you see a line labled "PSI" with the abbreviations used for MPEGII PAT/PMT tables, as well as the PSIP table abbreviations(MGT, TVCT, CVCT, EIT, ETT+STT next to it -- If I remember right, CVCT is a table in PSIP that allows stations to send an alternate virtual channel table to cable companies)... As you can see, "PMT" is NOT lit up in green, unlike is the case for all 14 other DTV stations in Cincinnati/Dayton currently -- Exceptions being WCVN-DT ONLY on 54.5 and 54.6 (which are not currently active with programming) which are instead lit up in Yellow. At right is a bit of other interesting info I got when tuned to WLWT-DT from the ATSC receiver from other screens.

For comparison "wcvnxbr960info.jpg" shows the same "screen" as the left part of the above, but this time when tuned to WCVN-DT 54.4 (KET4, with HD programming airing currently). As you can see, PMT is lit up in Green ....

Might not mean anything, but then again PMT seems to be working for all other stations in the area(lit up in green), and all other stations but WLWT-DT are decoding just fine on USDTV receiver ..... I'd think PMT is something that should be properly configured at a station, who knows, perhaps if it is not(which I have no way of knowing for sure with my equipment, but) I'd think it possible some receivers might have problems ....

Half Baked

11-11-05, 09:44 PM

Wohoo!!! Looks like Nascar in HD Sunday

cokebear

11-12-05, 01:08 AM

Wohoo!!! Looks like Nascar in HD Sunday

I think it has been every race since NBC started broadcasting the races. TNT has an HD channel as well. I belive most of them on FOX were as well but not all. Do not think any on FX were, I may be wrong but I don't know of FX having an HD channel.

dusterscott

11-12-05, 07:13 AM

Nascar races are normally broadcast in HD and have been for a while now.

luebster

11-12-05, 08:01 AM

I think the point he was making was that since WLWT is back to full power, he'll be able to pull in their HD signal, meaning he can actually watch the Nascar race in HD.

dusterscott

11-12-05, 08:02 AM

I see. :)

luebster

11-12-05, 08:06 AM

microbob

11-12-05, 12:09 PM

I'm having a bizarre issue with WCET-DT1, my HDTiVo, and my 5.1 receiver. If I view programs on WCET-DT1 through my HDTiVo, my 5.1 receiver detects a 5.1 audio signal and tries to output as such. However, no audio is actually output. This has happened on at least 3 different programs, so I think is channel-wide, not program specific.

If I change a setting on my HDTiVo to not output Dolby Digital, audio from WCET-DT1 outputs fine. I hesitate to leave the HDTiVo on this setting however, since anything it might record will not capture the 5.1 signal....

Has anyone else experienced this? Can someone confirm whether WCET-DT1 is broadcasting in 5.1? Anybody have any thoughts?

They are broadcasting in 5.1 full time, However; when the program is not in 5.1, the center channel is missing. WCET-HD used to only switch into 5.1 audio only if the program PBS was showing has it. I'm not sure why they can't only pass 5.1 audio only when the program material is recorded in it,since Most of PBS-HD is
only recorded in 2.0 digital audio.

luebster

11-12-05, 12:18 PM

Sea Ray

11-12-05, 12:21 PM

They are broadcasting in 5.1 full time, However; when the program is not in 5.1, the center channel is missing. WCET-HD used to only switch into 5.1 audio only if the program PBS was showing has it. I'm not sure why they can't only pass 5.1 audio only when the program material is recorded in it,since Most of PBS-HD is
only recorded in 2.0 digital audio.

You might be able to get around this by adjusting your audio from your surround sound receiver. Mine has Pro-logic II choices such as "movie" and "music" modes which give me sounds that better fit my tastes. Although it supposedly automatically picks the right format, I don't always agree. :D

Most often I use the music choice except for most movies where "movie" is generally best.

microbob

11-12-05, 12:25 PM

The problem is with WCET-HD not with your Tivo. The only way to fix it on your end is to record in 2.0 audio only. You should only record in 5.1 only when the show is recorded in it such as Austin City Limits, Soundstage and some of the NOVA episodes are recorded in 5.1. Hopefully, WCET will address the audio problem in the future.

gospartans

11-12-05, 03:54 PM

Is anybody else having any issue receiving 12-1. I am in Mariemont and have no issues pulling in 5,9, and 19 but have been having issues all week getting a signal for 12-1. I started to notice this last Monday Evening - before that I was getting is it without any issues.

Just wondering if anyone else is experiencing issues - or if I need to start troubleshooting my setup.

Thanks

dusterscott

11-12-05, 05:44 PM

No problems here up in Middletown.

jim tressler

11-12-05, 10:36 PM

good for me in hamilton twp

Frohlich

11-14-05, 02:06 PM

Ok, I promise I searched for this but couldn't find the information. I have been a Dishnetwork customer for over 8 years and got the old sure you can upgrade to the 942 HD DVR for $798 installed. Uh, no thanks. I am considering switching to TW in Cincinnati to get an HD DVR but am concerned on the picture qualify of standard definition signals. My kids watch quite a bit of cartoons and I watch quite a bit of TV on channels that don't broadcast in HD. Anybody have any comparisons/experience on what SD channels look like on TW in Cincinnati versus Dishnetwork (or direct TV). I remember years ago cable picture looked horrible on big screens (my TV is 60 inches) but so much has changed I would rather get an updated opinion. Any input is appreciated. Thank you.

Sea Ray

11-14-05, 02:14 PM

hpm123

11-14-05, 02:27 PM

Any there any LST-3510A HD tuner users in the local Cinti area? I just purchased one over the weekend and have a question on how the QAM function works.

I still have my local TW service and hooked the cable feed into the 3510, did a scan to see what channels I could pull in from TW, and I'm getting a channel 7 out of Dayton?? This is not OTA, but with my coax connected into the TW system. Also ABC's MNF went to a "no signal" status as the rain moved in tonight. It's almost as if these signals are OTA, but I'm not connected to my antenna, but connected into my TW feed. This makes no sense as I wouldn't expect to be getting a station out of Dayton, and wouldn't think I"d lose the local ABC stations signal when connected into TW's feed.

Curious if anyone is doing QAM in this area and what channels they're picking up from TW, if any - thx

Frohlich

11-14-05, 02:31 PM

In my opinion the SD quality of TWC is excellent, albeit not cheap. I believe they're going to hit us with another increase next month.

There's also been talk that they'll soon be providing digital video for all their channels whereas now the first 100 are analog. This may increase picture quality but I'm really quite pleased with their analog quality I'm a little skeptical as I see an opportunity for them to screw something up with band width issues or something.

I think we're fortunate to have a high quality cable signal here in Cincinnati.

Thanks for the quick reply. Did you come off Dishnetwork or Direct TV. I would love a comparison from a real world user for regular channels (non-HD). Is the quality of the picture very close, depends on the channel, worse, better,etc...? Also, aren't some channels analog and some digital..big difference between the two?

Sea Ray

11-14-05, 02:48 PM

I've never personally subscribed to satellite but I'd have a hard time believing they could be any better.

I have read a lot of complaints about the HD signals of satellite. One nice thing about satellite quality is that you cam judge it from most sportsbars and some restaurants because they likely have satellite especially if they are an NFL ticket bar.

cokebear

11-15-05, 12:25 AM

I recently switched from E* to TWC, at first I was very disappointed in the quality of the SD channels, however I was also trying to split the cable too many times before it hit the TV. Now I have about a 10' run from the outlet to a splitter which runs to the SA8300 and my QAM tuner and my PQ is much better than it was. That being said I would have to say that the PQ of TWC's SD channels is slightly less than E*. For the most part is is just a lack of crispness to the picture, at least on the sub 100 channels. The channels that require the box (>100) are much more crisp buy still slightly less in PQ from E*. The difference is not enough to be annoying but it is noticeable, one exception to this may very well be the quality of the equipment used in production, I recorded the UK basketball game last night that was tape delayed on FSN and the PQ and SQ were horrible as well as missing some of the picture, I could not see the game clock or half of the score. Same thing tonight I see, this looks like an analog OTA station from the 50's. However we tend to watch the newscast from WKRC and just looking at the newscast it is difficult to tell much difference between the SD channel 12 and the HD channel 912. Can't make a comparison of HD quality for you though because the $6-700 upgrade was out of the question for me, but I do find the HD signal is on par with OTA and would be skeptical if anyone other than the truly hardcore enthusiast could show me the differences.

As to the channel 7 from Dayton showing up on TWCinci, you can find WHIO, WRGT, and I think another channel in the channel list on the guide as well as via QAM. I get the entire basic cable lineup as well as WLWT, WKRC, and WXIX HD channels with proper PSIP id's, so they are showing up as 5-1 & 5-1, 12-1, and 19-1 & 19-2. I am also getting a channel of Encore I think on 100-8.

Frohlich

11-15-05, 07:45 AM

hpm123

11-15-05, 09:26 AM

As to the channel 7 from Dayton showing up on TWCinci, you can find WHIO, WRGT, and I think another channel in the channel list on the guide as well as via QAM. I get the entire basic cable lineup as well as WLWT, WKRC, and WXIX HD channels with proper PSIP id's, so they are showing up as 5-1 & 5-1, 12-1, and 19-1 & 19-2. I am also getting a channel of Encore I think on 100-8.

I'm picking up 100-8 which I found to be Encore as well. I've got an LG LST-3510 box, and if I enter 5-1. 19-1 with TW cable plugged into Antenna-IN, I get nothing. ABC is coming up on 107-21, NBC on 84-1 and CBS is 107-21. I haven't been able to find WB-64, and I think the Fox station is another Dayton station. This is my first experience with a OTA/QAM capable HD tuner, so wasn't sure what to expect

The fact that I was plugged into the TW's cable feed, and lost the ABC MNF football game last night when it was raining, didn't make sense as if I'm getting a QAM signal from TW, I wouldn't expect it be affected by rain. But I lost the signal and had to plug in my 8300 to watch the game in HD. Also couldn't understand why I'd be picking up a Dayton station, but if you're getting this too, that confirms what I was seeing.

When connected into my antenna last night while the rain was rolling thru, I couldn't get a good signal on anything except WLWT-DT. I have an outside mounted RS-VU160 UHF/VHF/FM antenna oriented at 260*, so I think my antenna is adequate. It appears that OTA-DT signals are susceptable to rain fade, much what I experienced with DirectTV years ago. Do you find this to be the case as well?

Thanks for the response -

dusterscott

11-15-05, 09:44 AM

I never have OTA reception issues if it's just raining. I believe I was having some lightning-related reception issues last night with CBS out of Dayton. All other Dayton and Cincinnati channels were fine for me.

Paul210

11-15-05, 10:12 AM

It wasn't lightning-related issues from WHIO-DT. They were back to the crackling and dropped audio every few seconds. It was unwatchable. The weather had my reception of WKRC full of dropouts so I just gave up on CSI Miami and watched the game.

Sea Ray

11-15-05, 10:48 AM

Shawn, thank you for the reply. I talked with TWC yesterday and they claimed that the sub 100 channels switched to digital from analog the last couple of weeks. I am not sure if this is correct or not but it did seem that someone else posted on this thread recently (I read so much yesterday I can't remember were it was) that they were told recently that they were going all digital. Maybe it already happened?

I don't think my area has gone all digital yet. That's surprising he'd make that declaration. You'd think they'd be advertising that by now if they truly have "made the switch".

Nitewatchman

11-15-05, 10:49 AM

It appears that OTA-DT signals are susceptable to rain fade, much what I experienced with DirectTV years ago. Do you find this to be the case as well?

Thanks for the response -

No. Rain is only a problem with OTA if you are getting water inside your Feedline/coax. Cable has the same problem, along with ingress issues(interference) from OTA sources due to poorly maintained cable lines - conversely, signals can "leak out" of cable lines and cause OTA interference if you're close enough.

All outdoor connections must be completely waterproof, otherwise your coax will soon be ruined. When water does get in, it will effect higher frequencies first.

Lightning, or man-made impulse noise is generally mostly a interference problem on VHF, low VHF especially. And, it's just extra "noise", as long as the signal from the station is strong enough, you won't see a problem with it with DTV.(digital Terrestrial OTA TV, not direcTV=D*).

jim tressler

11-15-05, 10:53 AM

here is something funny.. last night in all the mess, the dayton sations had their stongest signals ever for my setup.. lol

dusterscott

11-15-05, 11:10 AM

here is something funny.. last night in all the mess, the dayton sations had their stongest signals ever for my setup.. lol

So you didn't have any breakups with CBS Dayton last night Jim? I ended up switching to CBS Cincinnati.

Nitewatchman

11-15-05, 11:13 AM

I have an outside mounted RS-VU160 UHF/VHF/FM antenna oriented at 260*, so I think my antenna is adequate.

Seems adequete to me, however even mounted outdoors there can sometimes be more involved in getting good OTA reception than sticking antenna outside and aiming it in the proper direction.

What you've done is generally a good "rule of thumb" (stick antenna outdoors/aim it towards the towers) to achieve good reception, however it is also a good idea to make sure you have the antenna located in a "sweet spot" for reception before you mount it permanently. There are hot spots and dead spots for good reception for any given frequency/station all over the place(terrain blockage issues are often of particular interest), and then there are multipath issues .... Shouldn't be an issue for Milford but there are also receiver selectivity+sensitivity issues which can be involved, for instance, it's possiblie to get TOO much signal if you're too close to tower+overload the front end of receiver -- which generally should only an issue if you're using a preamp from "too close" ....

Fortunately, at this time you can hook your antenna up to a NTSC(analog) OTA tuner and get a good idea of how well your antenna is working by looking at the analog stations(especially ones that broadcast on nearby frequencies as the digital stations), as you'll see reception issues show up right on screen with analog TV. RF is RF, there is no fundamental difference in how the OTA signal "works" when it is transmitted "through the airwaves" and picked up by your antenna for Analog or digital TV - The modulation is different, and the information carried with DTV RF signal is digital, but the RF signal itself isn't ....

So, for analog, Snow=Weak signal, Ghosts=Multipath, interference=all sorts of different looking lines/squiggles and "sparkly" static. With Digital, unless you have a $$$$ spectrum analyzer lying around .... unfortunetly our receivers do not have very good RF signal diagnostic tools, so it is not allways clear what reception issues are causing what problems -- A bouncing around meter can mean Multipath problems(could indicate interference or overload issues as well), a low reading on the signal meter can mean a weak signal, but not necessarily so ..... A high reading on the signal meter is not necessarily going to mean a extremely "strong" signal, either ....

BTW, unless something has changed, I don't believe TW carries WSTR-DT(WB HD) yet. Your OTA problem with them is probably due to their directional antenna pattern, which doesn't send much RF in your direction. This should improve somewhat when they increase power, which should happen before 7/06. Also, in an earlier post you mentioned WCET-DT being off air --- Not that I have noticed, recently -- except perhaps between 1am~7am or so, when they usually go off air. Sunday night, however I noticed they were having some sort of problem and were on the air and the RF signal was fine but they were not sending any decodable video/audio - maybe a issue with their STL, as it has happened before. Didn't seem to be a PSIP issue, as there was nothing "there" without the use of PSIP on 34.1/34.2 either.

hpm123

11-15-05, 11:53 AM

BTW, unless something has changed, I don't believe TW carries WSTR-DT(WB HD) yet. .

ahhh, thanks Jeff - that would explain why I can get WSTR via TW QAM.

I'll have to check/replace my coax coming off the antenna. Last night when it was raining, I couldn't get anything except WLWT off my antenna. I went from OTA to TW's cable feed and QAM, and lost my signal for the MNF game. Something must be whacked with my 3510, but I'm actually using 2 3510's (bot a new one from CC, and then found a shelf model at BestBuy for half the price, so grabbed that one too). Both were losing the MNF signal via QAM. I still don't understand that one.

Will check out my antenna coax and see if I can't find a sweeter sweet spot - thanks Jeff -

Nitewatchman

11-15-05, 12:25 PM

Just noticed during lunchtime there is no Audio/Video from WCPO-DT 9.1 Currently -- 9.2(Weather tracker) is fine, 9 analog is fine ...

jim tressler

11-15-05, 12:41 PM

didnt watch cbs - just fox and abc.. but I did leave the signal meter running for a few minutes on each channel all night.. cbs 7-1 was good - no signal drops.. but i cant comment on the picture

Frohlich

11-15-05, 01:24 PM

I don't think my area has gone all digital yet. That's surprising he'd make that declaration. You'd think they'd be advertising that by now if they truly have "made the switch".

Just as a quick follow-up I talked with them again today to get clarification and they said that by the end of this month all sub 100 channels will be digital and some have already converted. The rep also told me you have to have a cable box to get the sub100 digital channels. I was still on the fence and am waiting on a call this afternoon from a rep and might just pull the trigger to get HD DVR and drop dish network.

hpm123

11-15-05, 01:36 PM

Just as a quick follow-up I talked with them again today to get clarification and they said that by the end of this month all sub 100 channels will be digital and some have already converted. The rep also told me you have to have a cable box to get the sub100 digital channels. I was still on the fence and am waiting on a call this afternoon from a rep and might just pull the trigger to get HD DVR and drop dish network.

That's interesting, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that would mean analog tv's that are "cable-ready" will not operate on TW's system without a cable box -

Frohlich

11-15-05, 01:47 PM

That's interesting, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that would mean analog tv's that are "cable-ready" will not operate on TW's system without a cable box -

Hopefully somebody else who knows more about cable card "cable ready" tvs can clarify but that seems logical based on the fact the rep told me you need to have a cable box to get the sub 100 channels in digital.

CincyKev

11-15-05, 01:56 PM

That's interesting, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that would mean analog tv's that are "cable-ready" will not operate on TW's system without a cable box -

I doubt that TWC would make such a move. I think the key is in the wording, "you need a cable box to receive the sub100 channels as digital." This seems to indicate that those channels will be broadcast as digital AND analog as opposed to just digital.

CincyKev

Sea Ray

11-15-05, 02:13 PM

What exactly is involved in changing everything over to digital?

I assume all they need to do is re-program the cable boxes. Do they have to re-wire everyone's house?

It's my understanding that the cable box takes an analog signal and converts it to digital. Is that correct?

Frohlich

11-15-05, 02:29 PM

I doubt that TWC would make such a move. I think the key is in the wording, "you need a cable box to receive the sub100 channels as digital." This seems to indicate that those channels will be broadcast as digital AND analog as opposed to just digital.

CincyKev

I agree with Cincykev and I might have not worded it in the best way. The channels will just be in analog for those people without a cable box. Anyway, that was my understanding from the conversation with the rep at TW.

cokebear

11-15-05, 11:30 PM

The last time I had a tech from TWC out (about 2 weeks ago) they told me all the analog (sub 100) channels were going to be "simulcast" by the end of the year. My .02.

terryfoster

11-16-05, 07:44 AM

I doubt that TWC would make such a move. I think the key is in the wording, "you need a cable box to receive the sub100 channels as digital." This seems to indicate that those channels will be broadcast as digital AND analog as opposed to just digital.

CincyKev
They also say "you need a cable box" to get your local digital stations on cable. I hope my QAM tuner will be able to pick up these simulcast digital stations the same as it can pick up the local digital broadcasts.

TWC does not need to rewire your house for you to receive digital cable. Digital cable runs along the same line as the analog signals. The cable box decodes the digital signal into a picture you can view and assigns it to a channel in the TWC lineup.

-needs to run a new channel scan tonight!

Frohlich

11-16-05, 09:44 AM

CincyKev

11-16-05, 11:52 AM

If it does still matter for digital then I will make sure to talk to the installer next week and have him run the most direct line possible to my tv. Thanks.

Signal strength does still matter with digital, or more precisely, signal to noise ratio does still matter with digital. How a weak signal manifests itself changes when going from analog to digital. With analog, you get a snowy picture when your signal strength is weak. The snow is the noise that has become stronger than the picture signal. With digital, your video and audio begin to cutout completely when the signal is weak. The video cutouts may manifest themselves as picture freezes, a completely black screen, or small areas of pixelation somewhere on the screen. This happens because the digital decoder can only decode or not decode data. It can't sort of decode data (which is essentially what a snowy analog picture is).

The cable company is responsilbe for providing you with a usable signal to however many TV's you're paying them for. When necessary, the cable company will install an amplifier before the splitters to insure that you get a good signal at each TV. The key is to install the amplifier at a point where the signal to noise ratio is small (i.e. before any splitters) because if you install it after the signal has already become weak, you'll be amplifying the noise as much as you amplify the good signal.

Sea Ray

11-16-05, 12:12 PM

So here are some more of my silly cable questions since I have been with Dishnetwork so long and am out of touch with cable. TW is coming next Tuesday to install their service. I have read and heard that you want as few splits as possible to run to your tv. The more the signal is split the worse the picture will be and that some folks even have a signal amplifier. Does this carry over to digital signal as well or is it more for analog signal issue? I am asking because if they are going to all digital, even channels under 100, would it even matter. If it does still matter for digital then I will make sure to talk to the installer next week and have him run the most direct line possible to my tv. Thanks.

When I had mine installed a couple years ago the tech was pretty sharp. It wasn't an 18 year old kid. He ran a separate line from the outside box to my HD TV. He also installed something which he called an inverter before splitting the signal. It basically looked like a coaxial wire that is plugged into a power outlet in the wall and then the signal is run to the splitter. I don't know if this amplifies the signal or what but I know the picture is unwatchable without this. I've tried with it disconnected.

Sea Ray

11-16-05, 12:17 PM

They also say "you need a cable box" to get your local digital stations on cable. I hope my QAM tuner will be able to pick up these simulcast digital stations the same as it can pick up the local digital broadcasts.

TWC does not need to rewire your house for you to receive digital cable. Digital cable runs along the same line as the analog signals. The cable box decodes the digital signal into a picture you can view and assigns it to a channel in the TWC lineup.

-needs to run a new channel scan tonight!

How do you know if your signal is digital or analog? If you are getting digital sound does that mean it's not an analog channel anymore? I'm only getting analog sound on a few of my sub 100 channels from TWC, such as CNN and ESPN 2. I'm even getting 5.1 sound on the E! channel.

Nitewatchman

11-16-05, 09:31 PM

In addition to the "jaggies" I'm Getting all sorts of Dropped frames from WCPO-DT tonight, only during HD programming, and only on Zenith HDV420 receiver hooked up to Toshiba 34HF84 - occurs no matter what resolution I output(480i/480p/720p/1080i, or what resolution I display(540p or 1080i being my 2 choices). For that matter, it's also occuring on a Plain old analog TV hooked up to Zenith via composite video at 480i. It's not happening with Sony KD-34XBR960+its internal tuner, nor is it happening with USDTV/Hisense DB-2010+Samsung TXN2668WHF. ABC HD from WKEF-DT is fine.

We've ran into(seemingly) this exact same issue before(only effecting some decoders+mostly involving programming sourced from film) some time back with WKEF-DT+ABC HD --- and with WRGT-DT(Fox Dayton), but during non-Fox Programming mostly sourced from film ---- AND with WSYX-DT(ABC HD) Columbus and was in touch with their engineers about it - -- If it's the same thing happening(and this has happened from WCPO-DT before early last spring if I recall correctly, but was fixed after a couple of weeks or so), it seemed to be a 3:2 pulldown related issue which was corrected by them(WKEF/WSYX/WRGT) turning off repeat field detection on their harmonic MV400 MPEG2 encoders(all 3 stations were using the same encoder). When it originally happened at WSYX-DT, it took them a long time to track down as none of the decoders(DTC-100, samsung models/etc) they were using to monitor the signal were exhibiting the problem.

BTW, I noticed I had to "rescan" channel 10 in order to decode WCPO-DT properly tonight on USDTV receiver, so I expect they may have also made some PSIP change in the past couple of days.

cokebear

11-16-05, 10:32 PM

Jeff, I was having trouble tonight with WCPO during Lost. They dropped to SD a few times and it was freezing and dropping audio over TWC. Not sure the problem was the same as before.

Frohlich, It does matter as mentioned by CincyKev and Sea Ray but also keep in mind that it does make a huge difference in the sub 100 channels at least until they have made the transition to all digital.

Nitewatchman

11-17-05, 08:58 AM

Jeff, I was having trouble tonight with WCPO during Lost. They dropped to SD a few times and it was freezing and dropping audio over TWC. Not sure the problem was the same as before.

Yes, that was happening too(on all equipment here), seperate issue. Looked like they might have been having problems getting good signal from the ABC feed.

I should have been more clear. When a station has this issue, The dropped frames issue with the Zenith(can't recall the other decoders which were effected by this issue when its occured before, but there are others) results in about 1/2 the Frames per second being "missing" during programming(usually only film based programming - occurs during commercials as well) off the ABC HD feed, audio is fine. This gives a continously very "stuttery" appearance to the video, more like 12fps instead of the total 24fps captured on the film ......

virgil001

11-17-05, 10:46 AM

Yes, that was happening too(on all equipment here), seperate issue. Looked like they might have been having problems getting good signal from the ABC feed.

I should have been more clear. When a station has this issue, The dropped frames issue with the Zenith(can't recall the other decoders which were effected by this issue when its occured before, but there are others) results in about 1/2 the Frames per second being "missing" during programming(usually only film based programming - occurs during commercials as well) off the ABC HD feed, audio is fine. This gives a continously very "stuttery" appearance to the video, more like 12fps instead of the total 24fps captured on the film ......

I was watching Lost on WCPO via TWC, as well, and noticed these issues. I've also noticed over the last couple of weeks that the audio on WCPO's HD broadcasts has seemed to have been slightly out of sync with the video. Has anyone else noticed this? Is it related to the issues above?

Thanks.

chrisirmo

11-17-05, 10:48 AM

I noticed the dropouts on WCPO via TWC last night as well. At several points during Invasion the audio was lost completely. Also, no DD 5.1 last night on either Lost or Invasion.

Sea Ray

11-17-05, 11:31 AM

I was watching Lost on WCPO via TWC, as well, and noticed these issues. I've also noticed over the last couple of weeks that the audio on WCPO's HD broadcasts has seemed to have been slightly out of sync with the video. Has anyone else noticed this? Is it related to the issues above?

Thanks.

Yes, I posted a couple days ago regarding WCPO and the audio being out of synch with the video. Someone then posted that he has no problems. He was using a Scientific Atlanta box. My PACE box has had lip synch problems with WCPO. As near as I can tell, the problem is the video is a split second ahead of the sound, which if true is further evidence that the problem is likely not with my TV. I'm glad I'm not the only one experiencing this. I think since they started 5.1, they've still got some bugs to work out.

Nitewatchman

11-17-05, 02:41 PM

Looks like they might be doing some "work" on WCPO-DT. ABC HD test loop currently running on WCPO-DT at 2:30~2:38pm EST. Full of jaggies of course.

I allways enjoy seeing that part with the test patterns that says "Ok wise guy. Lets see you code this." ....... The first time I saw it several years ago I thought I had some sort of bug in my TV ;)

plughplover

11-17-05, 03:07 PM

I was (trying to) watch lost/invasion last night via my accessdtv card on TWC (qam). There were a couple dropouts, but the more annoying thing was that every time wcpo put an overlay up (like their logo bug), it would switch to curtained 4:3 and an obviously lower quality image, even though the actual cable stream stayed at high def.

I also noted that the cbs outlet (which shares the same cable channel - 107.1 cbs, 107.2 abc) was also doing the same thing; some dropouts, and low-res curtained 4:3 in the high def stream.

cokebear

11-17-05, 04:07 PM

I also noted that the cbs outlet (which shares the same cable channel - 107.1 cbs, 107.2 abc) was also doing the same thing; some dropouts, and low-res curtained 4:3 in the high def stream.

I've been trying to find ABCHD via QAM on TWC but have not been able to find it. It should show up the same for everyone I'd think but my set only picks up WKRC DT on 107. Anyone have any idea why I don't see it here. :confused:

Nitewatchman

11-17-05, 04:12 PM

Maybe they had the fiber feed from WCPO to TW disconnected while they've been working on things this afternoon, who knows. Or, if you're saying you've never been able to get them perhaps all QAM tuners(or their firmware) are not created "equal".

Anyway, they dropped from the ABC HD test loop a few minutes ago and are back to "normal" presently with upconverted Oprah.

plughplover

11-17-05, 08:25 PM

I've been trying to find ABCHD via QAM on TWC but have not been able to find it. It should show up the same for everyone I'd think but my set only picks up WKRC DT on 107. Anyone have any idea why I don't see it here. :confused:

Well, I'm on a differant head-end (Fairfield) than you, but...

1080i feeds

84.1 NBC WLWT
85.2 PBS WCET
107.1 CBS WKRC

1280p feeds

84.4 PBS WCVN
85.1 FOX WXIX
107.2 ABC WCPO

cokebear

11-17-05, 11:25 PM

This is what I'm seeing in Middletown.

84.1 WLWT HD Remaps to 5.1
84.2 WLWT WX Remaps to 5.2
84.3 KET1
84.4 KET2
84.5 KET3
84.6 KET4

85.1 WXIX DT Remaps to 19.1
85.2 WXIX Tu Remaps to 19.2

107.1 WKRC DT Remaps to 12.1

I am only guessing at the actual sub channel and am listing them in order as they appear in my guide that's avaliable in my Hitachi 50V715, I do not see any way to make it list the actual sub channel. Guess I'll make a call to TW and see if they can clear it up for me any more. Since they are supposed to be "simulcasting" the analog channels on digital I suppose there may be many changes in where channels are located in the future.

ItzMe

11-17-05, 11:53 PM

Were there dropouts tonite in WLWT 5-1? I had them on Will and Grace and the first 15 mins of ER.

Nitewatchman

11-18-05, 09:07 AM

Cokebear,

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't you also using a TW box also and receiving everything OK with it? If so, seems like all the QAM signals are "there", but perhaps either your tuner is having a hard time with it for some reason, or there is something misconfigured/etc. at your local head-end. Anyway, hopefully they'll be able to straighten it out for you.

Oh, and doesn't TW Cincy also carry WPTO-DT? They run HD(on their time shifted schedule, like KET4 but it's different schedule/different programming) on "14 HD"(which is 14-6 OTA via PSIP remapping) from 8pm~10pm nightly now.

-------------------------------------------------------------

ItzMe,

Sorry I was watching WDTN-DT Dayton for ER last night for the DD 5.1 audio. Didn't have any problems there. If you've watched ER a while You just KNEW something was going to happen they way they stayed on that shot of the chopper on the helipad w/Pratt ...(but it was well done I thought, more of a "deja vu" feeling than a "not this again") ... Although I was thinking -- NOT another chopper crash or loss of arm/etc ....

Frohlich

11-18-05, 09:49 AM

One last question, I promise no more….well the last one as of now.

TW is coming out on Tuesday to install an HD DVR and their service in general. I have a 60 inch 4:3 CRT tv that accepts 1080I and 480I/480P. From reading various threads on AV forum I think I might be in trouble because of my set-up. I am under the impression that TW Cinciy uses the "passport" software and not the "SARA" software (hope I am using the right terms). I also read that the Passport software will not let you do a pass through of the signal so that 480I for SD definition signals don't get altered and that 1080I pass through as is for HD channels. It appears the Passport software might upconvert everything to 1080I or 720P depending on what you choose in your set-up. The problem is if my TV sees a 1080I signal, I am pretty sure it treats it as widesscreen. That is fine for HD but I think my SD channels would get forced to play widescreen since I can' let it pass through at 480I or 480P and the picture would be horribly distorted since it is a 4:3 tv. Anybody have any experience or input?

ItzMe

11-18-05, 10:23 AM

Jeff, when ER goes up on the helipad, you just know theres gonna be tragedy. I did Tivo that crash a couple of times, it was a cool shot.

jspicoli

11-18-05, 12:11 PM

DirecTV OTA install.. WTF?

Wife just called me (I am at work)... The DirecTV guy is there to install the OTA antenna at our new location. He is saying chances are I will not get all the local stations in clearly. I told him my rabbit ears inside picks up everything perfectly. He says they are different technology. I then ask if I should buy a different antenna to insure I get all the channels. He said, no, the one he is installing is the best for digital channels.

I don't get it... WHY would a rabbit ears indoor antenna which I do NOT have to adjust get all locals yet a rooftop antenna will not?

I guess I will find out when I get home tonight to see if it picked them all up or not.

BTW.. I am in Lakeside Park, KY

He also is only setting it up for my 2 HD receivers saying, the antenna won't work for my SD recievers... Something doesnt sound right here.

Nitewatchman

11-18-05, 12:46 PM

I don't get it... WHY would a rabbit ears indoor antenna which I do NOT have to adjust get all locals yet a rooftop antenna will not?

Maybe because it sounds quite possible that the antenna will end up either being improperly installed, or a bad choice of equipment used(such as a preamp if you are too close and it's likely to be overloaded/etc?) .... ;) ...

[update] Oh, He's probably thinking your using the rabbit ears for reception of analog stations, not that as far as the antenna goes there is any difference in the "technology" for reception of analog or digital stations, there isn't.

Something doesnt sound right here.

No doubt about that ....

[Update]: The ONE thing he might be somewhat correct about might be about the SD receivers. I could be wrong but I don't think they have OTA receiver/tuner of any sort in them. You'll need to use your TV's internal receiver(NTSC analog or ATSC digital depending on what you've got, or a external ATSC receiver) to use those sets with OTA.

gerhard911

11-18-05, 01:12 PM

Frohlich,

My Pace HD box (with Pioneer operating system) does allow "passthrough" in addition to selecting a specific output resolution. I can change this on the fly with the remote (numeric pad # key).

I'm not sure if your SA HD-DVR will but if not, I would say it's a hardware issue, not the Pioneer software.

jspicoli

11-18-05, 01:15 PM

No doubt about that ....

Update: The ONE thing he might be somewhat correct about might be about the SD receivers. I could be wrong but I don't think they have OTA receiver/tuner of any sort in them. You'll need to use your TV's internal receiver(NTSC analog or ATSC digital depending on what you've got, or a external ATSC receiver) to use those sets with OTA.

Thanks.. I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt and see what it is like when I get home. I am thinking if the guy does this daily, he must know more than I do about this stuff... Then again.....

Nitewatchman

11-18-05, 01:41 PM

I am thinking if the guy does this daily, he must know more than I do about this stuff... Then again.....

I wouldn't count on it .... It's pretty sad but it seems to be pretty hard to find a "professional" installer who does residental OTA antenna installs and knows much of anything about OTA TV/DTV reception or antennas/equipment/etc .... That seems especially true of some sat installers ....

They'll probably use the Winegard "Sensar" antenna (which is a bad choice IMO to begin with, but is, the last I heard the standard antenna D* uses for OTA installs) --- From reports we've seen One typical problem the D* installers seem to have with it is properly installing the "amplified" version of the antenna, and properly providing power to it via the coax. IF the amp inside the antenna's plastic housing isn't getting powered properly, the antenna will not work very well as if the semiconductors in the amp aren't powered, it'll atteunate signals GREATLY.

terryfoster

11-18-05, 02:01 PM

One last question, I promise no more….well the last one as of now.

TW is coming out on Tuesday to install an HD DVR and their service in general. I have a 60 inch 4:3 CRT tv that accepts 1080I and 480I/480P. The problem is if my TV sees a 1080I signal, I am pretty sure it treats it as widesscreen. That is fine for HD but I think my SD channels would get forced to play widescreen since I can' let it pass through at 480I or 480P and the picture would be horribly distorted since it is a 4:3 tv. Anybody have any experience or input?

You actually get to choose which resolutions you want to support. I had my 8300 set up to only pass 1080i and 480p when I used my 4:3 CRT HDTV (Made WCPO look better). Now I have it set to pass 1080i, 720p, and 480p to my DLP HDTV.

Think of it as yes or no for each resolution. Also, it upconverts 720p to 1080i and 480i to 480p with the 1080i/480p selection.

dusterscott

11-18-05, 02:47 PM

I wouldn't count on it .... It's pretty sad but it seems to be pretty hard to find a "professional" installer who does residental OTA antenna installs and knows much of anything about OTA TV/DTV reception or antennas/equipment/etc .... That seems especially true of some sat installers ....

They'll probably use the Winegard "Sensar" antenna (which is a bad choice IMO to begin with, but is, the last I heard the standard antenna D* uses for OTA installs) --- From reports we've seen One typical problem the D* installers seem to have with it is properly installing the "amplified" version of the antenna, and properly providing power to it via the coax. IF the amp inside the antenna's plastic housing isn't getting powered properly, the antenna will not work very well as if the semiconductors in the amp aren't powered, it'll atteunate signals GREATLY.

They may know how to install satellite dishes but when it comes to OTA installations, IMO, they haven't a clue. As a good friend of mine puts it, I wouldn't trust them to oil my kid's bicycle chain.

Frohlich

11-18-05, 03:22 PM

cokebear

11-18-05, 03:37 PM

terryfoster

11-18-05, 04:30 PM

Yeah I am using a box as well but these channels are supposed to be passed "in the clear" right? So I'm thinking that they are encrypting some channels they shouldn't be???

I have been down that same path already. They are not encrypting the local digital channels, you either have a problem with your tuner or a signal issue.

Until recently all I had to do to find WXIX-DT was to disconnect the cable from the STB and plug it directly into my HDTV and run a channel scan. Once I had it in my channel lineup I could tune to it even if the signal was weak.

Now I have a problem where my channel scan freezes on channel 85 and so it will not find 85-2 WXIX. At this point it would seem that I have a tuner problem, but i'm just not sure.

jim tressler

11-18-05, 06:41 PM

lol.. let me gues.. Bluegrass Satellite?? - dont get me started on those fools

If rabit ears work.. then the sensar they sent should also be fine.. as far as the antenna.. if he means the ota antenna, then yes, it will not work with your sd recievers as they do not have built in ota (NTSC) tuners.. however, if he is referring to the directv dish, then he is a fool :)

good luck and let us know how it goes

jim

DirecTV OTA install.. WTF?

Wife just called me (I am at work)... The DirecTV guy is there to install the OTA antenna at our new location. He is saying chances are I will not get all the local stations in clearly. I told him my rabbit ears inside picks up everything perfectly. He says they are different technology. I then ask if I should buy a different antenna to insure I get all the channels. He said, no, the one he is installing is the best for digital channels.

I don't get it... WHY would a rabbit ears indoor antenna which I do NOT have to adjust get all locals yet a rooftop antenna will not?

I guess I will find out when I get home tonight to see if it picked them all up or not.

BTW.. I am in Lakeside Park, KY

He also is only setting it up for my 2 HD receivers saying, the antenna won't work for my SD recievers... Something doesnt sound right here.

plughplover

11-18-05, 10:36 PM

Until recently all I had to do to find WXIX-DT was to disconnect the cable from the STB and plug it directly into my HDTV and run a channel scan. Once I had it in my channel lineup I could tune to it even if the signal was weak.

Now I have a problem where my channel scan freezes on channel 85 and so it will not find 85-2 WXIX. At this point it would seem that I have a tuner problem, but i'm just not sure.

I think there is something "funny" about the ch 85 stream - it takes my adtv card over a minute sometime to sync up with that stream. ch 107 is a quick sync, 84 in between, but 85 takes a llooonnnggg time (and all three of them peg my signal strength indicator).

cokebear

11-18-05, 10:52 PM

I have been down that same path already. They are not encrypting the local digital channels, you either have a problem with your tuner or a signal issue.

Until recently all I had to do to find WXIX-DT was to disconnect the cable from the STB and plug it directly into my HDTV and run a channel scan. Once I had it in my channel lineup I could tune to it even if the signal was weak.

Now I have a problem where my channel scan freezes on channel 85 and so it will not find 85-2 WXIX. At this point it would seem that I have a tuner problem, but i'm just not sure.

I have only one splitter on the line. One side to the box, the other to the built in ATSC tuner. My built in signal "quality" meter is hanging around 88-96 depending on the channel. When I had a :rolleyes: high quality coat hanger hooked up to it I could bring in a dropout free signal with the meter hanging around 45-50. The box shows a foreward level of 119.000 MHz -3 dBmV, reverse level 11.000 MHz 39 dBmV. So my signal should be very good. It is also very good about picking up PSIP info. Curious if anyone's tuner is doing what mine is and remapping those channels to 5-1,5-2,12-1,19-1,19-2???

By the way I have ran three full scans now and still can't come up with an ABC HD channel.

Is it any wonder so few cable/satellite installers know nothing about HDTV? Here we are with some fairly knowledgeable people, comparing notes about signal strength/quality, on different TV's/tuners and still come up with more questions than answers sometimes. :eek:

Nitewatchman

11-19-05, 11:48 AM

Is it any wonder so few cable/satellite installers know nothing about HDTV? Here we are with some fairly knowledgeable people, comparing notes about signal strength/quality, on different TV's/tuners and still come up with more questions than answers sometimes. :eek:

Well, it's hard to come up with the answer when you don't have all the necessary information needed which often turns out to be the case when trying to investigate these things.

One thing I did notice that in your list of stations on the last page, you didn't list any of them that you are getting which are sharing a 6MHZ RF QAM channel on the cable system, such as WKRC+WCPO on 107. So, Just a guess but perhaps your tuner is having difficulty working with 2 stations per channel for some reason, or it doesn't "like" how TW has it setup on their end for some reason.

With QAM, the transport streams the cableco receives from TWO stations(which can of course include multiple program streams per station with multicasting rather than just a single HD stream) can fit in a single 6MHZ RF channel on the cable system(which gives about about 38Mb/s or so payload available in 6MHZ channel with QAM). This is possible because it requires less ECC to send a signal over a wire than is the case with OTA --- Which with our system used for OTA(ATSC 8VSB), each station can fit 19.34Mb/s payload into their 6MHZ channel. Looks like TW is using this capability, for example by having the streams it gets from WCPO-DT+WKRC-DT both using RF ch 107 on its cable system. ATSC also has 16VSB BTW, which offers roughly the same data rate as QAM via cable, but I don't think any cable systems are using 16VSB.

I don't know how TW has it set up, but what I think basically should be happening more or less is that the transport stream the station sends the cableco (which would probably be received either via fiber, or picked up from their OTA signal at the headend) would be modulated to QAM on the channel(in this case a 3MHZ slice of channel 107) and sent to you, they shouldn't be decoding/reencoding the transport stream including the MPEG2 video/AC-3 Audio/etc from the station, it should be the same thing OTA viewers get. WCET-DT may be an exception as it looks like they might be sending other "things" to the cableco as well, or doing it a little differently than they do OTA. I'd think it should still have the PSIP info the station is sending as well - although I don't know if the PSIP will "work" with QAM. TW might not quite be doing it that way, and I've heard that in some cases cableco will strip the PSIP info, but I think that is how they should be doing it, more or less. I do know that PSIP has the capability to send a seperate VCT for cableco's to use via QAM cable, I'm not sure if any stations in the area are implementing it.

JunkyardDogg

11-19-05, 09:26 PM

Noticed that WCPO-DT currently doesn't have DD 5.1 on for the Harry Potter movie. WKEF-DT currently does.
Also noticed that WLWT-DT PSIP is a little different than usual. It displays WLWT-DT for both channels and no program description is available.

cokebear

11-20-05, 01:24 PM

One thing I did notice that in your list of stations on the last page, you didn't list any of them that you are getting which are sharing a 6MHZ RF QAM channel on the cable system, such as WKRC+WCPO on 107. So, Just a guess but perhaps your tuner is having difficulty working with 2 stations per channel for some reason, or it doesn't "like" how TW has it setup on their end for some reason.

Well KET should be on the same channel 54-1 to 54-4 and they are shown on the same channel as 5-1&2. These are listed veritcally on the TV's channel guide which should mean they are sub channels of channel 84. Same thing with WXIX and Tube, they are listed as sub channels of 85. Now when I look at the channel list on my TV (it shows only the CH#, Scan off/on, CH ID and weather it's locked out or not) I see KET's channels listed as 54-1 to 54-4 with channel ID's of KET1 to KET4 and then of course I see 5-1 as WLWT HD and 5-2 as WLWT WX. With WXIX as 19-1 WXIX DT and Tube as 19-2 WXIX Tu.

From what I'm seeing with other channels there is no reason for me not to be able to find the ABC DT or HD channel in the clear and even if it isn't remapped to 9-1.
Calling TWC now. Finish this later.

UPDATE! After being on the phone with TWC for about 20 minutes the most info I could get is that ABC should be on 693MHz. Also confirmed that they are "in the process" of moving the analog channels to digital.

Anyone know off the top of their head what channel 693 MHz is? 107-2 right?

http://www.jneuhaus.com/fccindex/cablech.html

cokebear

11-20-05, 03:05 PM

Another update:

After doing yet another channel scan, I tried punching in 107-2 again but my TV tunes to 12-1. Here is what I do get but I'm not going to list what each channel is.

Everything listed on the cable ready channel lineup form TWC is correct. In addition to those i get: BTW *=encrypted or scrambled.
5-1
5-2
12-1
19-1
19-2
54-1
54-2
54-3
54-4
The above are correct with PSIP.
To continue:
74-1 to 74-7 *
75-1 to 75-12 *
76-1 EWTN25
76-2 TWC scroll
76-3 Has TBN video with Answers on demand audio.
76-4 Shopping channel without audio.
76-5 HDTV info from TWC without audio.
76-6 EWTN25 Video with audio from HDTV info from TWC.
76-7 TV guide channel without audio.
76-8 FOX without audio. (Not sure which channel of FOX)
76-9 CSPAN? HNN? Local Access? City council meeting anyway, without audio.
76-10 Test Pattern
76-11 CBS ??Channel without audio.
77-1 to 77-10 *
78-1 to 78-5 *
79 HBO on demand info.
80 SHO on demand info.
81-1 *
82-1 to 82-1 minus -3 and -10 *
83-11 to 83-14 *
83-18 *
83-22 *
83-33 *
83-44*
83-55*
83-77*
83-88*
86-1,2 &4*
87-1,2,3,8 & 10*
88-175*
88-178*
89-129*
89-132*
89-133*
90-154*
90-156*
90-158*
91-1*
92*
93 Paula White, religous channel?
94-1 to 94-12 minus -5 *
100-1 to 100-7 *
100-8 Encore
100-9 to 100-11*
100-17*
100-19*
101*
102-2 & 3*
103-1 to 103-10*
104 Events on demand info
105 Answers on demand
106 C-SPAN3
108-1*
109-1 to 109-12*
110-1 to 110-10*
111 Spanish answers on demand.
112-1 to 112-11*
113-1 to 113-12*
114-6 to 114-34*
114-50 to 114-54*
114-102 to 114-104*
114-108*
114-133 to 114-147*
115 TWC scroll with audio.
117-1*
118-1*
119-1*
120-1*

jim tressler

11-20-05, 08:36 PM

anyone else notice wkrc missed the switch for the bengals game?? i called.. hope everyone else did too :)

jkeane

11-20-05, 08:45 PM

Actually, they didn't miss it. They had a message across the bottom of the picture that CBS would make the game available in HD as soon as the 1:00 HD game was concluded.

jim tressler

11-20-05, 09:34 PM

ahh. that makes sense.. I was still watching the steelers / ravens right when who dey kicked off

Nitewatchman

11-20-05, 09:34 PM

Well KET should be on the same channel 54-1 to 54-4 and they are shown on the same channel as 5-1&2. These are listed veritcally on the TV's channel guide which should mean they are sub channels of channel 84. Same thing with WXIX and Tube, they are listed as sub channels of 85.

Missed that about WLWT-DT+WCVN-DT(KET) being on your list as 2 stations which are both using Channel 84 QAM slots, and are working on your end, sorry about that.

But, It's not quite the same thing for WXIX and the tube as it is for WLWT-DT and WCVN-DT sharing cable RF channel 84. Both services(subchannels) from WXIX are sent in the same transport stream from WXIX, OTA it's on RF channel 29(560-566MHZ) -- MPEG program numbers X-3(29-3) and X-4(29-4) the last I checked might be X-1+X-2 now), and 19-1(WXIX/Fox 720p), 19-2(The Tube) -- via PSIP .... Just as all of KET services(subchannel) take up 6MHZ RF channel OTA with ATSC and only take up 1/2 of the 6MHZ(in other words 3MHZ RF spectrum) ch 84 QAM channel, with WLWT-DT (5.1+5.2 PSIP) using the other 1/2 of it.

From what I'm seeing with other channels there is no reason for me not to be able to find the ABC DT or HD channel in the clear and even if it isn't remapped to 9-1.

After doing yet another channel scan, I tried punching in 107-2 again but my TV tunes to 12-1. Here is what I do get but I'm not going to list what each channel is.

Interesting, of course 12-1 is from WKRC-DT's PSIP ......

So, everything is working right for say, both WCVN-DT(KET) and WLWT-DT on cable RF channel 84, whearas the PSIP virtual channel remapping is also working OK for both stations ... But it isn't working OK for BOTH WKRC-DT and WCPO-DT on Cable channel 107 where it seems PSIP remapping is not quite working OK for both stations for some reason ....

If you look at plughplover's list, you'll also notice WXIX-DT share QAM Channel 85 with WCET-DT, and I don't see anything from WCET-DT on your list. Could the same thing be happening with them as you are getting with WCPO-DT ?

Problem at the cable headend, and/or their implementation of what they are "carrying" from the station*(and where they are putting it), OR a problem with your tuner+it's implementation of channel tuning(or "subchannel" tuning)/PSIP or some combination of those is my best guess .... If there is a way to do so(probably not but who knows) I'd probably see if I could turn off PSIP on your receiver and see what happens ....

* - also, I wonder how they take care of things such as both 12-1+12-2 being in WKRC-DT's VCT (12-2 for the Weather radar), and WCPO-DT's weather channel on 9.2(which I think is carried "elsewhere" on TW, at least it used to be) .... Evidently, those program streams aren't there anywhere on Cable QAM channel 107? .... Whereas on the other hand, it at least seems they are using the entire datastream from both WXIX's(for WXIX programming/Fox HD+The tube), and WLWT-DT (5.1+5.2) pretty much as is .... Maybe KET as well, depending upon what they do with 54.5(KET5/House) and 54.6(KET6/Senate) when they are active .....

Anyone know off the top of their head what channel 693 MHz is? 107-2 right?

Keep in mind The offsets for video/audio carriers in the chart at link you provided are only applicable to analog NTSC(which takes up the entire 6MHZ channel) signals ... I don't know what the exact frequencies for QAM would be, but I'd think cable RF channel 107 should be somewhat close along the lines of :

Ch 107 - QAM Slot 1 around 690~692MHZ
Ch 107 QAM Slot #2 around 693~695MHZ
Ch 108 QAM slot #1 around 696~698MHZ and so on ...

plughplover

11-20-05, 09:35 PM

Another update:

After doing yet another channel scan,
Here is what I do get but I'm not going to list what each channel is.

Interesting...

It's been a while since I did a scan, and I have noted that some streams that used to be in the clear (for example ch 117 thru 120) aren't any more...

I just checked my (fairfield) feed against your list, and it looks like I'm pretty much the same as you now, including that strange jumble on ch 76.

MarcW

11-20-05, 11:29 PM

You actually get to choose which resolutions you want to support. I had my 8300 set up to only pass 1080i and 480p when I used my 4:3 CRT HDTV (Made WCPO look better). Now I have it set to pass 1080i, 720p, and 480p to my DLP HDTV.

Think of it as yes or no for each resolution. Also, it upconverts 720p to 1080i and 480i to 480p with the 1080i/480p selection.

Are you saying your 8300 doesn't upconvert 480i to 1080i? This is the one thing that I find very annoying with the 8300. I have to leave all resolutions unchecked other than 480i, otherwise it will upconvert to the highest resolution available. Basically I have to enable 1080i when I want to watch HD content and disable 1080i when I want to watch SD. If I leave 1080i and 480i selected the box will upconvert even SD to 1080i. Since my old Pioneer will lock on full I can't use the stretch modes of the TV.

-MarcW

cokebear

11-21-05, 12:23 AM

If there is a way to do so(probably not but who knows) I'd probably see if I could turn off PSIP on your receiver and see what happens ....

Not that I can see in the set's setup anywhere. It's a confusing mess at best.

I'm certain that TW will tell me it's a problem for the manufacturer (they have already done so in fact) and Hitachi will tell me that it's a TW problem (Sent them an e-mail asking for more information or flash update). Maybe somewhere around 2008 it'll all get worked out. Getting any info from TWC about QAM tuners is like pulling teeth, they kept insisting that ABC is on channel 909 and seemed to be at a loss as to why on earth I wouldn't want to use their cable box to tune anything in. :confused:

I feel like ordering up a cable card just to make them figure out how to use one.

plughplover, are you getting the ABC and WCET HD feeds in the clear?

nightowl2k2

11-21-05, 12:53 AM

I am not finding the WCPO and WCET feeds either here in Loveland. I see all of the other channels (WXIX, WKRC, WLWT, KET) but not ABC and PBS (Cincy). I just got my set today so I have been exploring the channels to see what I can find and I have not found it so far. I did notice that 9-1 and 10-1 showed up in my channel map as digital but my Toshiba said the signal was too weak to tune. All of my other HD channels are perfect according to the signal meter in the TV

plughplover

11-21-05, 09:48 AM

plughplover, are you getting the ABC and WCET HD feeds in the clear?

Yes
wcpo (abc) on 107.2 at 1280p
wcet (pbs) on 85.2 at 1920i

I'm a little surprised that the middletown head-end is carrying cincy stations.

Between the fcc grade B contour coverage rules and the must carry / retransmission consent rules (further complicated by the fcc dtv carriage rules) twc is picky about what broadcast stations they carry - for example, I don't get wdtn on analog any more, and as I recall, a little bit further south from here they don't get any dayton stations on cable.

Nitewatchman

11-21-05, 10:29 AM

I'm a little surprised that the middletown head-end is carrying cincy stations.
.

Middletown is in Cincinnati DMA, and is in TW Cincy Service area. -- I'm well north of Middletown funny enough, only 12 miles from the Dayton towers as the crow flies(but also am only 27~32 miles from Cincinnati towers), but since my Zip is Middletown I'm in Cincinnati DMA as well - Not that it really matters as far as cable goes as TW(nor any other cableco) doesn't actually serve my rural location. I use OTA(from Cincy+Dayton) and DVD primarily and E*(dish network) to supplement that a bit for some of the cablenets, but A number of my neigbhors who use satellite use a antenna for Dayton and sat LIL for the Cincy locals.

Between the fcc grade B contour coverage rules and the must carry / retransmission consent rules (further complicated by the fcc dtv carriage rules) twc is picky about what broadcast stations they carry - for example, I don't get wdtn on analog any more, and as I recall, a little bit further south from here they don't get any dayton stations on cable.

Grade B analog contour for Cincinnati or Dayton analog stations generally extend from the transmitter site about 55 miles in most cases(meaning a bit into N KY for the Dayton Stations), same thing for the "equivilent" 41dbu contour for UHF DTV, 36dbu for VHF hi, 28dbu for VHF low(we don't have any of the latter, WDKY-DT 4 Lexington is closest). And, of course the Dayton/Cincinnati towers are only about 40 miles apart from each other.

For the most part I don't think it probably has as much to do with cable carriage rules as it does that stations(per their network/affiliate agreements) have the sole distrubution rights to the network's programming within a market -- It's a little different for PBS stations, but for instance while Dayton stations signal contours would put them within range for cable carriage by most of Cincinnati's cable head ends, IF Cincy cable carried them, they'd have to black out the screen during network programming carried by the Cincinnati station, whether or not they actually even have an agreement to carry the Cincinnati station. I'd also guess the stations may have some agreements among themselves concerning which communitites in between Cincy+Dayton they'll seek cable carriage for/etc. I think Lebanon cable for instance carries both Cincinnati+Dayton stations, and I'm not sure but they may not even have to "blank the screen" for either one if the stations from both cities are detirmined to be "significantly viewed" out of market stations ....

Of course, with OTA it isn't an issue - well, except where you point your antenna ....

bhatch

11-22-05, 09:11 AM

I am new to both HDTV and to forums such as this. I am here because this appears to be the best source of expert advice on these issues so any help is greatly appreciated

I have DirecTV and recently purchased the HR10-250 HD DVR. To get the over-the-air HD signals I decided to take the easy route first and purchased an RCA amplified indoor antenna (ANT301) to give it a try - without much success, i.e., I can get a strong signal from WLWT-DT but only weak signals from the others that are frequently dropped.

I live in Cleves, OH (zip: 45002). I have been to the antennaweb site and thus know that I am 10-12 miles from the broadcast locations that I care about and the compass orientation of all of these stations are within 5 degrees of one another.

The back of my two-story house faces the southwest and my dish is located on the roof of my backporch and pointed just above a treeline and my HDTV is in a room onthe first floor at the back of the house adjacent to the porch. The reason I mention this is because it appears per the map from the antennaweb site that the broadcast towers are to the ESE; therefore, I am concerned that using either an indoor antenna in my TV room or an outdoor antenna mounted on my porch roof will be shielded from the HD signals by my house.

Do I need to mount an antenna on my roof (if so, what is the right antenna) to get a quality consistent signal, or is there hope for a simpler solution, say with the right indoor antenna.

While I am at it, another question occurred to me. Several times now I have received a message from my HR10-250 unit that its internal temperature is too high and it needs to shut down. I am using it in the same slot as my old Tivo unit which never had such a problem. Is this a typical problem for this unit?

Thanks.

jim tressler

11-22-05, 09:31 AM

bhatch - welcome - my hd tivo runs at the same temp as my sd tivo did at the same location.. make sure the fan is running in the back and make sure there is good airflow under the unit.. ie.. dont set it on the carpet. make sure the unit is not in direct sunlight or near a heat source.. if all of that is ok - then something is wrong with the unit.

as far as an anteanna, channels 5,12,19,48,64 all broadcast on uhf with channel 9 on vhf - for my experiences, the uhf antenna that I use for dayton - http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103088 - works fine for all the cincinnati locals if I spin it that way - it even gets channel 9 which broadcasts on channel 10 - I use the winegard sensar for my cincinnati stations - however, its not the best, but it works for me. A few things to consider.. channel 9 and 12 have petitioned the fcc to go to VHF channels after analog shutdown (jeff knows the exact details) - so you may want to condider a combo antenna for the future.. feel free to ask away.. there are enough of us around here with ota setups that almost any question or situation has been delt with by one of us.. usually jeff.. lol

jim

bhatch

11-22-05, 09:46 AM

Jim - thanks for the quick feedback. My HD Tivo sits on the lower shelf of a carousel with my TV on top. I am now raising the Tivo unit up to improve the airflow underneath. DirecTV seems to only want to replace it if the temperature sensor is malfunctioning. I suppose I could exchange it at the retailer for another HR10-250 and hope to not experience the same problems.

jim tressler

11-22-05, 09:54 AM

with the tivos - air flow is key - cool airflow as well.. if the box is in a stuffy location then that will hurt things..

Nitewatchman

11-22-05, 11:59 AM

My address is .....

It's up to you, but just a thought, you might want to edit that a bit, otherwise anyone on the internet can find your address .....

It was helpful however, as I ran an elevation profile from Your location to the Cincinnati Towers.

Attached at bottom of this message is elevation profile from your location to WKRC tower. I've drawn in the height of transmitting antenna at about 1600FT ASL - that's not exact, but is sort of an estimation for some of the other stations(WCPO is a bit below 1600FT ASL with tower a stones throw away from WKRC's, WLWT-DT/WCET-DT/WSTR-DT is up above 1700FT ASL) as well .... the Blue line is a sort of rough, seat of pants estimation of what the curvature of the earth does at 12 miles, as the software won't take it into account. As you can see, you might be getting a bit of attenuation by terrain - probably especially more of a problem on higher UHF frequencies. Doesn't really look as if it should really be much of a problem to me, but combine it with a low gain indoor antenna(and having antenna indoors attenuates signals greatly -- general rule of thumb, about -20db) +add in some multipath difficulties and those issues might explain why you are getting generally poor results with the indoor antenna your using.

The reason I mention this is because it appears per the map from the antennaweb site that the broadcast towers are to the ESE; therefore, I am concerned that using either an indoor antenna in my TV room or an outdoor antenna mounted on my porch roof will be shielded from the HD signals by my house.

Well, the signals can pass through, but will be attenuated. Also Among other things - everything near an antenna is somewhat connected to it and effects the signals to some degree. So, Generally, indoors or outdoors the farther the antenna is away from nearby "stuff" when its aimed in the direction of towers the better -- If outdoors, If you can say, get antenna at least about 30Feet away from "stuff" it's aimed towards the better, but of course that's not allways possible, and that doesn't mean it will, or won't work well mounted on your porch roof, or even somewhere indoors(you can just count on their being more signal attenuation, and probably more multipath with the antenna indoors) ..... There might be a nice "hot spot" there on the porch roof, or in your attic, or in your TV room "somewhere" for the signals, who knows ... Finding a "sweet spot" to mount the antenna for good reception on all your desired stations can be very important. There are often "hot spots" and "cold spots" everywhere, especially given the relatively short wavelenths of UHF TV frequencies --- You'll just have to try different spots and see what works best -- Or, if you can find one you can hire a knowledgable pro OTA antenna installer who should do a "field" test/signal test to find a good spot for the antenna before mounting it.

Do I need to mount an antenna on my roof (if so, what is the right antenna) to get a quality consistent signal, or is there hope for a simpler solution, say with the right indoor antenna.

Outdoor antenna would probably be a good idea. It usually is, usually especially so more than say 15 miles from the transmitter, but given that bit of terrain issue you have makes it probably similar to you being say, more like 30~40 miles from the transmitter rather than 12 miles way. A few Small~medium size VHF/UHF combo antennas that might be a good "one size fits all solution" might be :

CM3016 - http://www.channelmaster.com/Pages/TVS/AdvantageAnts.htm - Lowe's has them( http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=159752-000000693-3016&lpage=none ), and the bigger CM3018.

Winegard PR7010 ( http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/pr-7010.pdf ) - There is a winegard distrubutor in Dayton, not sure about Cincinnati -- check winegard website. Many professional OTA antenna installers use these, as they are well built antennas.

If any stores still have any RS VU90XR(It's no longer showing on their website) The RS website does still show the VU120 http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103086&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032205&parentPage=family ) which is bigger than the VU90, but looks to be your "smallest" choice from RS for a good, outdoor VHF/UHF combo of conventional design.

---------------------------

What I might do though is use a CM4221/CM3021 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=3&CAT=&PROD=SCM4221A) for UHF and TRY it for VHF first as well ( ... It might be enough to get enough signal from WCPO-DT 10 as well). The RS UHF Yagi Jim mentioned would be another option, but the CM4221 might increase your chances of picking up WSTR-DT+WCVN-DT, as unlike the other Cincinnati stations, there's about a 60 degree spread between those from your location, with as you said, all the others "in between" WSTR-DT/WCVN-DT within a few degrees of each other.

If those UHF antennas don't do the trick for VHF WCPO-DT(and probably WKRC-DT after they move their digital to 12 after analog shut off) then I might use a CM0549 VHF/UHF combiner(This place has them http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/joiners.htm ) to combine the CM4221 or U-75R UHF antenna with a VHF antenna .... For the VHF antenna, any coat hanger would probably be enough, so I might use a winegard "sensar" GS-1100(http://www.winegard.com/offair/sensar.htm), or a channelmaster CM3010 "steathtenna"( http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=154077-000000693-3010&lpage=none), but ONLY for VHF. Or, With the CM3010,(either with it's non-amplified circut board, or it's optional amplified circut board, the CM3038(see after bottom of chart here: http://www.channelmaster.com/Pages/TVS/SpecialMktAnts.htm )) it actually has a pretty good VHF/UHF combiner inside the antenna, and with a little "surgery" it is possible to remove it's puny UHF section and hook a UHF antenna up to it via 300Ohm twinlead - you have to sort of fashion good terminals however so that the lead from the antenna makes good contact with the UHF input "contacts" on the circut board.

OR, on the other hand, since all you are probably going to need in Cincinnati on the VHF TV side, even after analog shut off will be hi-VHF(174~216MHZ - ch 7-12) capability, there is really probably no need to, as again any coathanger will probably work fine for VHF for you, but you could get a really good(but still small) VHF antenna which just covers VHF-HI band such as Winegard YA-6713 ( http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/ya-6713.pdf ).

If you want to try Dayton(all digital of which are UHF) reception as well, you might want to think about a rotor, or 2nd antenna setup for dayton, and/or a higher gain UHF antenna(such as CM4228, Antennasdirect XG91/CM4248/ etc). Oh, on antennaweb -- The location they show for WPTO-DT is incorrect -- They show it as transmitting from Near Oxford, Ohio. It actually currently transmits from WXIX(fox) tower in Cincinnati.

Anyway, If you do use outdoor antenna, be sure to properly ground the mast+coax run(as close as practical to where the coax enters the house), and make sure to bond those grounds to your main A/C service ground per NEC. It's back a ways, but you''ll find a good discussion on proper grounding a ways back in this thread, and you'll find good grounding+antenna info elsewhere on AVS as well.

There are also likely many other options that might work, and its usually not as "complicated" as some of the above might seem .... but IF it's more than you want to mess with, you might want to consider trying to find a professional OTA antenna installer. There was one fellow who reported here a while back that he was happy with an OTA antenna install from one of the installers in the area.

----------------------------------------------------------

Ok, now Back to the indoor antenna ... the above is not to say a indoor antenna might not still work -- It might, if you can find a "hot spot" for reception for it -- You'll just have to experiment with a little extra feedline and see ... Often near a window facing the towers is a good spot, but not allways ... You could try a little better indoor antenna, such as Silver sensor -- but along the lines of what Jim mentioned, it's UHF only, so if you can't get enough signal from VHF WCPO-DT off it --- the best "indoor" settop antenna for VHF is rabbit ears, so you might want to use a VHF/UHF combiner (such as CM#0549) to use say, a Silver sensor, or say the RS DBT(a nice UHF indoor antenna) and VHF rabbit ears .... Or, you could try one of the outdoor antennas mentioned above mounted in the attic/etc ...

More than you wanted to know I'm sure ... hope some of it helps .....

Nitewatchman

11-22-05, 12:10 PM

the uhf antenna that I use for dayton - http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103088

Jim -- WTF is going on with the picture of that they have on the website? I believe they are showing it in the picture assembled improperly, with the UHF corner reflectors on BACKWARDS ... LOL ...

unless they've suddenly made some sort of radical new design for the U-75R I haven't heard of, I think it should look more like the antenna in attached pic, except that the U-75 R doesn't quite have this many elements and is a bit smaller(this pic is of a Radio shack UHF Yagi/corner reflector from the late 70's or early 80's I have here, BTW)

jim tressler

11-22-05, 12:37 PM

lol... I just noticed that too

dusterscott

11-22-05, 01:46 PM

Yeah, that's not the way I assembled mine either :)

bhatch

11-22-05, 05:01 PM

Jeff - Thanks for the detailed information. I realized that posting my address was not the smartest thing to do, but I wanted to provide as much information as possible so as to get the best information in return. There was probably a better way for me to do that. Thanks again.

Bhatch

rickw6605

11-22-05, 09:19 PM

The quality of the picture I'm seeing on 19-1 tonight doesn't seem as good as in past evenings. I'm watching the basketball game. When the camera shot is pull back to show the court I see "distortion" of the lines on the ref's uniforms. Is there a website or resource to help me understand what I'm seeing and a possible cause? I'm also noticing sparks on the black bar that appears on the bottom of the screen during commercials.

Another question I have is how can I tell if the signal getting to the tuner in my TV is too strong or too weak? The coax run from my attenna to tv is probably 60 feet by the time it runs from the roof to down the back of the house, enters the house and travels to the TV.

Rick

cokebear

11-23-05, 12:43 AM

I'm a little surprised that the middletown head-end is carrying cincy stations.

Well we are also getting WPTO, WPTD, WHIO,WRGT & WKEF but none of these are HD. Must say that I'm not suprised that I'm not the only one unable to tune these stations.

Small tip: If you are ever feeling like you don't know anything about HD on cable just call TW and chat with a rep for 10 min. You will find that you know more about it than TWC does at least. This may sound harsh and might not fit ALL of TWC's people but it fits all of them I have talked to and I'll be the first to admit that I don't know nothin'

All of my experience with HD so far has just made me anxious for the day I move from this apartment and into a house just so I can put up my own antenna farm. ;)

terryfoster

11-23-05, 07:18 AM

The quality of the picture I'm seeing on 19-1 tonight doesn't seem as good as in past evenings. When the camera shot is pull back to show the court I see "distortion" of the lines on the ref's uniforms. Is there a website or resource to help me understand what I'm seeing and a possible cause? I'm also noticing sparks on the black bar that appears on the bottom of the screen during commercials.

I wouldn't worry too much about the picture quality you were seeing last night. Since the game was not in HD there are many possible causes such as low end production equipment.

Nitewatchman

11-23-05, 11:52 AM

Another question I have is how can I tell if the signal getting to the tuner in my TV is too strong or too weak? The coax run from my attenna to tv is probably 60 feet by the time it runs from the roof to down the back of the house, enters the house and travels to the TV.

Add add'l attenuation into the feedline and see how much extra attenuation it takes before you drop below threshold/lose a signal lock. ~16db SNR is required for OTA DTV reception. You can use splitters(each 2 way splitter adds about 3.5db of insertion loss for instance), or a really good tool for this is variable attenuator(up to -20db) from RS : http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062022&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032207&pg=4&parentPage=family

If it only takes a couple of Db(say you add a extra two way splitter and lose a lock), you might want to try improving your setup to get a bit more signal. Theoretically, you shouldn't "need" any more than 16db SNR, but it is probably good to have several extra db as a bit of a fade margin. 10db extra might not be a bad thing to shoot for, although even that or even much more probably isn't going to solve any difficult multipath issues, especially from dynamic mulitpath(from stuff that moves, basically).

As for too much, I really don't know what that would necessarily be in any particular case. If there is a problem with "too much" signal, it's usually not necessarily the station you're trying to watch that's necessarily the problem, but instead intermodulation distortion and or desense issues, or receiver selectivity*( issues caused by strong signals from "elsewhere"(such as say, for example a high power FM transmitter a couple blocks away from you).

* - Selectivity issues such as a strong signal on a 1st adajecent channel next to the weak station your trying to receive -- as I'd guess would probably be an issue if you were in Say, Florence and trying to pick up WRGT-DT 30 Fox Dayton while having to also aim the antenna right at WXIX-DT Fox Cincinnati. Theoretically, it's supposed to work for DTV with as much as 46db difference in signal level on first adajacent channels, and it does seem to work awfully well, but for various reasons practical real world results may not be so good in some circumstances ....

Unless you are very close to the towers(and probably even if you are), I don't think too much signal should be a problem as long as you aren't using a preamp. Even if it takes 50~60db(maybe even a bit more) of extra attenuation added into your feedline for the stronger stations before you get down to threshold levels, that still shouldn't be "too much", but ceritanly much more than you need ... Well, for instance unless the station has problems and has to output very low power levels temporarily until they get things fixed ...

Of course if you ARE getting too much, the attenuator from RS mentioned above should take care of that -- it would only keep a preamp from being overloaded+causing IM problems however if you put the attenuator in line before the preamp.

Nitewatchman

11-23-05, 12:41 PM

Well we are also getting WPTO, WPTD, WHIO,WRGT & WKEF but none of these are HD. Must say that I'm not suprised that I'm not the only one unable to tune these stations.

I'd imagine it's probably a good bet that analog stations they are carrying now in your community/head-end that serves your location, in most cases it will probably be the case they'll have the digital station(+HD hopefully as well but who knows) after analog shut off. Then again, who knows. I think the cable carriage deals between stations+cableco's last 3 years at a time, and the "deals" do change so you might have a station come or go here and there although I think they usually like to avoid too much "change" in that regard, as much as possible.

I don't know, but since TW has a deal with WHIO-DT/WRGT-DT+WKEF-DT for carriage, including HD in Dayton(and points north), and their analogs are being carried in Middletucky that its probably possible they could carry the digitals/HD in Middletown as well ... perhaps especially since the two divisions(TW WOH/TW CIncy) "merged" recently. But, might very well be a part of the HD carriage deal with the WKRC-DT/WXIX-DT/WCPO-DT that they aren't, at least currently - maybe in at least some communities that are in Cincy DMA(such as Middletown) or it also might be more possible it might just be a bandwidth limitation thing for TW at the current time.

Question -- In Middletown, Does TW "blank" the screen on WHIO/WRGT/WKEF when the same CBS/FOX/ABC programming is running on WKRC/WXIX/WCPO? I wouldn't think so(but could be wrong), since they probably fall into the "significantly viewed" catagory+are all of course Grade A or better signals in Middletown area .... Interesting they don't have a "deal" for middletown carriage of WBDT or WDTN, though ....

dusterscott

11-23-05, 08:23 PM

Is anyone experiencing an audio/video synchronization problem during the Kenny Chesney concert on WCPO? I'm seeing it on WKEF Dayton too. Please tell me it's not my receiver.

JunkyardDogg

11-23-05, 08:36 PM

I didn't see any sync problems, however, I am not receiving DD 5.1 from WCPO, but I am on WKEF. Is WCPO broadcasting DD 5.1?

Sea Ray

11-23-05, 08:56 PM

Is anyone experiencing an audio/video synchronization problem during the Kenny Chesney concert on WCPO? I'm seeing it on WKEF Dayton too. Please tell me it's not my receiver.

I haven't watched WCPO tonight but I've had this problem ever since they went DD5.1 a couple weeks ago. I'm more a sports nut than a country music fan so I most notice it during Monday Night Football. But I must say, I've noticed it even when they're not broadcasting in DD5.1. But I don't recall this ever being an issue before a couple weeks ago, so I think their conversion over to 5.1 has screwed up their synchronization just a little bit.

I have TWC with a PACE box.

dusterscott

11-23-05, 09:46 PM

Thanks guys. I don't notice this on MNF but normally watch WKEF (ABC) out of Dayton. I wasn't receiving WCPO in DD 5.1 tonight either.

JunkyardDogg: how are you receiving WCPO and what STB do you use? I'm receiving OTA via a model 360 Samsung STB.

I'm only seeing this lip sync issue on ABC. All other channels are fine.

JunkyardDogg

11-24-05, 06:12 PM

I am receiving OTA also, maybe I need to watch more closely. I haven't watched WCPO for more than 2 minutes, so that may be the reason I didn't notice the sync issue. All I can say is check WCPODT.com and send an email to the engineer. This way he can look into it. I have a Mits WS-65869 with an integrated tuner.

terryfoster

11-25-05, 08:43 AM

If you're watching WCPO live and the show isn't in 5.1 and you believe it should be in 5.1, give the engineering department a call because I heard this is a manual process and they could be missing it just like they do/did with the HD feed.

luebster

11-25-05, 03:46 PM

microbob

11-25-05, 04:15 PM

Yeah, Finding Nemo was not in 5.1 last night.

I noticed that too. I think they will have to flip the 5.1 switch until they install their new encoder. Then it will happen automatically.

JunkyardDogg

11-27-05, 01:08 AM

I have noticed that many of the times I check WPTO-DT on the weekends that I don't receive any sound on 14.06. Anyone else having this problem? Is there a good contact with the station? I know that everything is run out of dayton, but a number and/or email would be helpful.

Nitewatchman

11-27-05, 10:36 AM

Jydogg,

Yes, WPTO-DT is frequently missing audio or having other glitches on 14.6 during HD in the evenings. The other glitches have steadily decreased in frequency over the past few months however, which Is something I mentioned the last time I contacted them -- They have allways responded to my comments, BTW. We've had a couple of their folks post here or in Dayton thread in the past, I usually use the contact info for their Chief engineer(phone+ email - email has allways worked for me), which is shown on this page :

http://www.thinktv.org/about/contacts.html

eddieness88

11-27-05, 08:05 PM

Hi I am new to avs forums as well and recently just got in to the whole hdtv thing with a good black friday hdtv deal. I live in west chester south of tylersville. Using my old rca antenna on top of the tv in the first story I can pull in WKRC and PBS at about 80 %

However only get around 40% with the rest of the channels and 0% for WCPO and no picture shows up. Since the antenna website has all of these stations in the same direction, I am confused why there is such a difference in the signal strengths. I really don't want to go through the hassle of an outdoor antenna and read somewhere that rf inteference filters and fm traps might help. Any experience with these devices and any other suggestions?

Nitewatchman

11-28-05, 11:46 AM

Hi I am new to avs forums as well and recently just got in to the whole hdtv thing with a good black friday hdtv deal.

First, Welcome to AVS.

I live in west chester south of tylersville. Using my old rca antenna on top of the tv in the first story I can pull in WKRC and PBS at about 80 %

Well, On top of the TV is usually not a good place for antenna. Especially with indoor antenna, besides "adjusting" the antenna itself(you'll probably need different "adjustments" for best reception of different stations), probably the best thing you can do is move the antenna around to try to find a "sweet spot" for reception. Having the antenna near a window facing the towers often turns out to be a good spot, but not allways. For WCPO-DT 10(remaps to 9-x), you might want to try adjusting the VHF "rabbit ear" portion of your antenna so it is horizontally polarized and a 1/2 wave dipole for channel 10(192~198MHZ) -- which should be aboue 29" from tip to tip.

However only get around 40% with the rest of the channels and 0% for WCPO and no picture shows up. Since the antenna website has all of these stations in the same direction, I am confused why there is such a difference in the signal strengths.

It's probably because the meter on your receiver is probably not acutally measuring signal strength, even though it may say "strength". These things are usually best thought of as "signal quality" meters, and for instance, a very strong, but multipath, or interference laden signal very well may register "0". In other words a low reading CAN be an indication of low signal strength, but it can be an indication of other problems as well.

I really don't want to go through the hassle of an outdoor antenna and read somewhere that rf inteference filters and fm traps might help. Any experience with these devices and any other suggestions?

A FM trap might especially be a good idea for your location(RS has one for a few $), given your proximity WLW tower, where I believe at least one High-power FM station currently transmits. A preamp is probably not a good idea, hopefully your current antenna doesn't have one of those "built in".

Hi-VHF TV ch 7-13 are probably most likely to suffer interference from FM interference, however if it's so bad that front-end of your receiver is overloaded to the point of desense it would probably cause problems just about everywhere -- Which, however wouldn't seem to be the case since you are getting WKRC-DT and one of the Three Cincinnati PBS stations(or The Dayton PBS).

checking your reception of the analog stations in the area, currently can be a good tool for you to help you diagnose reception problems and improve your reception. As reception problems(ghosting=multipath, Snow=weak signal, various sorts of "squiggly lines"=interference) show up with analog right on the screen -- without a spectrum analyzer, for the most part there is really no good way to see0 exactly what is causing reception problems with digital TV, and the "meter" on the receiver is often not enough. Also, with one exception(WPTO analog transmits from Oxford, WPTO-DT transmits off of WXIX's(Fox 19) tower - antennaweb info on WPTO-DT location is or at least was incorrect) the analog stations broadcast from the same towers as the digital stations.

The problem with using the analogs to improve your reception however is that multipath or interference issues are often quite frequency specific, and for instance, even off the same tower you could have major multipath problems on say, WCET-DT 34, and have a perfect pic on WCET 48.

Neverthess the analogs can still tell you a lot, and if you can get a reasonably ghost+snow free pics on cincy analog 9+12(for WCPO-DT 10) and the Cincinnati UHF analogs 19,25,36,38,48,54,64 (don't worry too much if 25,36,38+54 are snowy from your location,25+36 will probably be snowiest as they are lowest power), I'd think chances are good you should be able to achieve good reception of the Cincinnati digital stations(On RF channel 10,24,28,29,31,33,34,35) as well. Same thing with Dayton, with Dayton UHF analogs 16,22,26,45 (all the dayton digitals are on UHF - 18,30,41,50,51,58), so no need to worry about 2+7 -- you're probably a little out of range with an indoor antenna for Dayton Low power analogs on 40+55). WPTO 14 analog, and WKOI 43(digital 39) are also "in range" for you and transmit from Oxford area.

---------------------------

You didn't mention what sort of antenna your RCA antenna is(UHF loop? VHF dipole/rabbit ears? UHF Only?)--- Another area for improvement might be that you might want to improve your antenna setup a bit. Again, I'd start with moving the current antenna around, but IF multipath is the problem especially, having a antenna with good directivity can be quite a benefit, and of course if the antenna has more directivity it will have more gain as well. While outdoor would likely be best, a little better antenna indoors might do the trick as well. Finding a good spot for the antenna would be the first thing I'd try, but you might want to move to a better indoor antenna. You're not going to find a better indoor antenna for VHF than rabbit ears, but there are a couple of "better than UHF loop" UHF indoor settop antennas -- such as Silver sensor, or the RS DBT. You'll need to use a VHF/UHF joiner to combine your VHF rabbit ears(for WCPO-DT 10) with a UHF only antenna such as a Silver sensor. Or, for more gain/directivity you could try a "outdoor" VHF/UHF combo indoors, such as in your attic - just keep in mind finding a "sweet spot" for the antenna is as important in the attic(and even outdoors sometimes) as it is on the 1st floor ....

Hope this helps, good luck let us know how it goes.

BTW, you'll find some excellent antenna+reception info that should help you out, here :

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennadex.html

terryfoster

11-28-05, 03:22 PM

eddieness88

11-28-05, 06:24 PM

Thanks for all the info, Jeff

I believe my antenna is one of those bunny ears ones with a build in loop and i after tweeking with it a little, the best place for it still does seem to be on top of the tv cabinet. After tweaking with the direction of the bunny ears just barely and auto scanning again, i was able to get WDTN and WKEF from dayton with some stuttering occasionally. I also tried your analog method and the the pictures of all the channels (from cincinnati) I want are mostly clear with minimal ghosting.

This gives me great hope that I can be able to get the hdtv channels just from a newer indoor antenna because I this rca antenna is probably 10 years old. So what are the best new models of indoor antennas to use in my area around west chester. (models available in retail stores would be preferable for returns)

Thanks for all the help :)

Nitewatchman

11-28-05, 08:05 PM

the best place for it still does seem to be on top of the tv cabinet.

Stranger things have happened I suppose. For instance, about the only place I can get excelllent DTV reception from most of the local stations, and somewhat passable analog reception(still with some ghosting, and snow on UHF) with indoor antenna here is with antenna placed near a 2nd story window(some 80 feet away from the "main" TV), South facing window for Cincinnati/East for Dayton. Given the 80ft coax run+low gain antenna, I had to add a preamp to keep the signals up for the coax run. I'm North of Middletown BTW, about 15 Miles SW of Downtown Dayton ...

I also tried your analog method and the the pictures of all the channels (from cincinnati) I want are mostly clear with minimal ghosting.

That's good news at least, sounds like with some luck, it hopefully won't be too difficult for you to improve your reception of the digital stations.

This gives me great hope that I can be able to get the hdtv channels just from a newer indoor antenna because I this rca antenna is probably 10 years old. So what are the best new models of indoor antennas to use in my area around west chester. (models available in retail stores would be preferable for returns)

Well, I wouldn't expect any mirarcles in reception improvement with any indoor settop antenna --- it's not so much that a "newer" antenna will help than it is that an antenna with more gain/directivity might help, at least on UHF. Antenna designs haven't really changed for decades, and there are "as good" antennas made 30 years ago as is the case presently. There really aren't any better "settop" indoor antennas for VHF than the rabbit ears on your current antenna, to improve VHF to much of a degree, you'd need to use a multielement antenna, and they only make those as "outdoor" antennas(not that you can't put a outdoor antenna indoors, you certianly can -- usually their size however means you'll be wanting to put it in the attic). For UHF however, there are a couple of antennas that offer better performance than a UHF loop --- As mentioned above, one is the Silver Sensor - This antenna uses a log perodic design, BTW -- And, I have seen these at Best buy for about $20, but don't know if they still carry them or not) :

http://www.zenith.com/sub_prod/product_Display.asp?cat=49&id=131

And another is the Radio Shack Double Bowtie(also mentioned above), which the marketing geniuses at radio shack renamed a couple years ago to something along the lines of "UHF dual HDTV antenna" or some such silly thing :

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103058&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032204&allCount=18&fbn=Brand%2FRadioShack&f=Brand%2F1000094%2F&fbc=1&parentPage=family

Note: BTW, UHF TV band(ch 14-69) is 470~806MHZ, not 300-3000MHZ as noted in the add for the RS DBT ... Why can't they get even simple stuff like this right ....aaaargh .....

Even this $4 "outline Bowtie" UHF antenna from radioshack is slightly better than a UHF Loop ( I use an outdoor antenna, but Just for fun I've tried it I can get good DTV reception of most local stations with one of these combined(using a VHF/UHF combiner) with Rabbit ears if it's placed near a 2nd floor window facing towers as described above) :

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062017&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032204&parentPage=family

While it may be somewhat possible to receive WCPO-DT(on VHF 10) with one of the UHF antennas mentioned farther above(and you might want to try that first), I'd guess You're probably going to need to use both VHF+UHF antennas, and will thus need to combine seperate VHF/UHF antennas with a VHF/UHF combiner. Last I was at "Meijer's", they had one of these in there A/V accessories rack, and RS used to have one(can't find it now) --- Although a CM#0549 (available here : http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/joiners.htm ) would probably be a better choice(, I don't think it's available at any local store I know of besides Dayton Wintronic ( www.daytonwintronic.com ), a "full line" channel master distrubutor who usually sells to contractors/installers/etc, but last I bought anything from them, they sold to indivduals as well.

IF you can't use the VHF antenna(rabbit ears) from your current setup "seperately", and don't want to make your own 1/2 wave dipole for channel 10 out of a bit of wire/etc, Radio shack has VHF rabbit ears for a bit too much $ here :

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062018&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032204&allCount=18&fbn=Brand%2FRadioShack&f=Brand%2F1000094%2F&fbc=1&parentPage=family

Depending upon what antenna(s) and/or VHF/UHF combiners you get, you might also need a balun or two (matching transformer to adapt a 300 ohm lead, or terminals on antenna to 75ohm coax, or input/output. These are available at Radio shack, or any number of stores(such as in Meijer's video accessories rack) for a couple of bucks.

For a all in one VHF/UHF indoor antenna solution, unfortunetly I don't know of any "good ones" they are making, other than pretty much the same thing you already have. Radio Shack does carry the "Terk HDTVi" ( http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2110925&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032204 ), which has a log peridoic UHF section and looks a lot like the silver sensor, but also has VHF Rabbit ears included. Unfortunetly, however, the Terk HDTVi also includes a internal amplfier, which, as mentioned above is probably not a good idea for your location.

BTW, for more info you might also want to check out some of the other reception+antenna info threads elsewhere on AVSforum for lots of good antenna+reception info ....

Nitewatchman

11-28-05, 08:24 PM

It would appear that WKEF-DT will be airing the movie "Head of State" in HD on 12/08 @ 8PM while WCPO-DT will be airing "Billy Graham Crusade" and "Food Gifts".

Didn't something like this occur when "Saving Private Ryan" aired?

WCPO-DT did air SPR in HD for it's first airing, which was aired uncut and with extremely limited commercial breaks(I think there was ONE during the entire movie) I think it was fall 2002. I remember wathcing it on WCPO-DT, as there wasn't a Dayton ABC digital affiliate on air until 2003. Neither WKEF-DT nor WCPO-DT(nor many other stations) aired it last time as a result of Janet Jackson's Boob flash and the "Indecency on TV" stuff going on in Washington ....

WCPO certianly seems to be the station which tends to air "other programming" in lieu of network programming more than any other station in the area. I noticed it happened at least twice over the summer when ABC HD movie aired on WKEF-DT.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

All,

I thought WKRC ran a nice piece on H/DTV+the DTV transistion tonight on Local 12 news --- I thought they did an excellent job packing a lot of info(accurate info on the transistion no less) into a few minutes -- Kudos to Paula+Ken(Yes, they even gave an engineer some on air time!) for the report ....

Also, KET has been airing their own 30 minute info show on DTV/HD, called " The ABC's of DTV" --- They currently have future airings listed on http://www.ket.org/dtv/

The first airing of it, they extended it to an hour and a panel of experts took calls/questions -- It was interesting to hear some of the questions they were asked ... Some of the responses were interesting as well ....

One thing is for sure, I'd have to agree with Mike Clark at KET, I'd really like to see KET productions such as KY afield+KY life HD someday ....

Nitewatchman

11-28-05, 09:19 PM

Sorry for the multiple posts, One other thing I forgot to mention ....

After tweaking with the direction of the bunny ears just barely and auto scanning again,

There should be a way so you can tune your receiver manually directly to the actual channel(RF channel) the station is transmitting on which you're trying to tune in and look at the signal meter to adjust your antenna, rather than having to do a autoscan each time you "tweak" your antenna ...

The method varies with different receiver models, for instance, With some receivers, you can just tune to say, 10.1 for WCPO-DT, (or just 10 if the receiver is ATSC only and doesn't do NTSC analog) or it might have an option to let you "add"(scan in) a single RF channel.

The problem is, you can't tune to a PSIP remapped virtual channel (such as 9.1/9.2 for WCPO-DT) until you receive that virtual channel remapping info from the station, which you can't do until you achieve a signal lock on the station. And, I think in most cases a "full autoscan" will erase that info from the stations you picked up on the last autoscan.

IMO, they really should have thought more about this before adopting PSIP, and I think they also need to find a way to make it easier for people -- perhaps receivers preprogrammed with local station's PSIP(That is sort of the way it works if you are getting D* guide info for the locals off the bird), as well as better RF signal diagnostic tools might be good ideas .....

jim tressler

11-29-05, 09:39 AM

I thought it was ok.. but they did make a few mistakes.. here is my "reponse" that I sent them today..

"As one of the few in Cincinnati that receive HDTV via an Over the Air antenna - your report was a welcomed change to the "lets not mention hd" attitude that usually persists - I applaud you for that. I must say that Channel 12 does a good job with their HD signal - you usually hit the HD switch without any problems and the signal is clean. You also do a nice job of not letting the radar sub channel suck the bandwidth out of the main 12-1 HD feed. Please keep up the good work. One comment, 5.1 Dolby Digital makes a noticeable difference in my mind - any word on when Channel 12 will be able to pass on DD5.1 - WHIO out of Dayton currently passes 5.1 on and it sounds rather nice. Also, any word on when Local12 news will go HD?

While I appreciated your report, I must point out a few flaws that you mentioned:

#1 - Cable does not give the hd box away for free - Time Warner in fact charges a premium for the service as well as a rental fee. At this time, Directv and Dish network both give consumers the HD box for free or free after rebate - all without a rental fee.

#2 - The panasonic EDTV that you showed was 4:3 and not 16:9

#3 - Plasma, SED, OLED, and CRT based Rear projection sets are all subject to burn in - not just plasma - however, in recent plasma sets, the risk of burn in has greatly diminished. Projection based DLP, LCOS, and LCD do not suffer burn in - however they all have their limitations.

Thank you for the good report and keep up the good work with your HD signal.

Jim Tressler"

I thought WKRC ran a nice piece on H/DTV+the DTV transistion tonight on Local 12 news --- I thought they did an excellent job packing a lot of info(accurate info on the transistion no less) into a few minutes -- Kudos to Paula+Ken(Yes, they even gave an engineer some on air time!) for the report ...

TL2000

11-29-05, 10:24 AM

I'm not sure if there is a better place to ask this or check, but does anyone know if the Bearcats game will be in HD tonight? Is there a schedule somewhere which shows what games will be broadcast in HD by F-19? I checked out their website, but it only showed that there would be programming on 19.1.

Thanks

Brian

jim tressler

11-29-05, 10:30 AM

brian - fox 19 has done hd games in the past, however, this year - at this time - they dont have any hd plans.. can you blame them?

that nazi on the hill has destroyed uc hoops / hell she has even destoryed the womens crew team.. lol

TL2000

11-29-05, 10:35 AM

Lovely. I met her, not this homecoming, but the last and she lied to my face about not changing the C-Paw. I should have realized then that we were in big trouble. I guess once she accomplishes everything she wants, we can move from the Big East to the Ivy League...<snort>

Paul210

11-29-05, 10:46 AM

The UC game will also be televised by WHIO in Dayton, not that any of you would want to listen to the Dayton announcer's spin. GO FLYERS!

dusterscott

11-29-05, 10:54 AM

Nitewatchman

11-29-05, 11:49 AM

That "lady" at UC has to go ... And IMO, for reasons that actually have nothing to do with sports, or "academics" .....

but the last and she lied to my face about not changing the C-Paw.

See, that's what I'm talking about .. normally wouldn't one think one might be more "suspicious" of such a comment(whether its true or not) being posted on an internet forum, but, instead, Why am I not even slightly suspicious that a "professional" adminstrator at UC would do such a thing ....

You also do a nice job of not letting the radar sub channel suck the bandwidth out of the main 12-1 HD feed

Have to disagree with you a little there. While for the most part It doesn't seem to cause problems, (certianly nothing as bad as "webhopper" or for instance when WHIO-DT was running a SD multicast), but I think there are times during bandwidth demanding sections of programming that HD on 12-1 could use all the bits that are used by the radar, probably a tad more so if they do get around to passing DD 5.1, which I believe takes a couple hundred Kb/s more than DD 2.0.

I thought it was ok.. but they did make a few mistakes.. here is my "reponse" that I sent them today..

Yeah, I noticed #1 #3 on your list as well, didn't catch #2 .... Noone's perfect I suppose .... I was just glad they talked about OTA+the transisition and provided accurate info about "the snow", and that they also talked about less expensive HD sets. Concerning the latter, epecially as one of the panel of "experts" ( a fellow from a electronics store) on the KET "ABC's of digital" show seemed to me he was more interested in selling Plasmas+LCD displays than answering a caller's question about CRT, even though for the most part otherwise I thought he did a pretty good job .....

I also thought they did a good job for the most part on the KET show over all, but even their "panel of experts" had some fopah's ....

For instance, in the call in portion they said digital OTA was all on UHF(which of course is wrong) ... No one attempted to correct this, even though Lexington, for example currently has TWO VHF digital stations. What was especially funny was they were saying something along the lines that the Ch 2-13 TV/antenna you're using for analog currently won't work at all for OTA digital as it is all on UHF ... Which is funny as well for those who are in Lexington, as Lexington is all UHF ANALOG market ....

Also, in the main info section of the show, they talk about how analog TV's using OTA will need a converter after analog shut off, and while they are showing a picture of the USDTV/Hisense DB-2010, which is clearly labeled "HDTV receiver" right on the front, they say these receivers will only pass SD, and will not pass HD to your set ..... They said nothing about the possibility concerning using an external STB/HD+DTV receiver for HD such as USDTV box with a "HD-ready" monitor. Granted, in the future evidently there will be low cost converters which will decode all ATSC formats and only pass SD via composite or s-video, BUT I think some of that may confuse some folks ....