Cincinnati, OH - HDTV [Text View] - Page 18

Nitewatchman

12-01-05, 12:21 AM

C'mon Jeff. The very article you posted made it clear that the Directv reps weren't even certain about this offer which was a point I've pounded home throughout this thread. It is complicated, thus the controversy that sparked that article. But I'm with you, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other. I don't have a love affair with either group but I do like the competition.

First off, I'm just discussing, nothing more nothing less.

We know there is a $200 rebate for D*'s H20 $199 HD receiver -- a rebate that is even available at Big Box retailers, For instance, the $200 rebate for the H20 is shown right there in Best Buy's ad for the thing on their website -- at least it was when I looked at it. And, we know that D* has made that offer, and that there are those that qualify for it -- from what I gather, even NEW customers are eligible for it if they sign up for a 2 year commitment to some level of service ..... That's all I'm saying. I'm not advocating that anyone report about it(as I said I could care less, really), but I don't necessarily see anything wrong with it if they did. As for the rest, including the "confusion" about what D* is doing(and as you say, even THEY seem confused) with this as reported in the TVprediction article, it sounds like it might be a good piece for "Hey Howard" .......

But I think you are also indirectly hitting on an important point here and in some of your other posts .... This entire HD/DTV thing IS complicated for folks and this latest fiasco concerning the "is it free" or is it $99, is just another example of what happens when things are made even MORE confusing for consumers ..... OTOH, this transistion to MPEG4 has got to be a difficult thing for D*, and certianly I'm sure they knew it wasn't going to be perfectly smooth sailing -- so I guess you gotta give them some credit for going for it ...

TWC would say yeah it's free if you already have our digital box. Come in and we'll swap it for an HD box for "free".

And I'd think that TW would be incorrect. You have to pay a rental fee for the STB(or cablecard, even), no matter if there are 1, 2, of them or if it's SD digital or HD digital. You don't have to pay a rental fee for the "cable-ready" NTSC tuner in your set, nor for your QAM tuner.

You could say that D* and others give you the satellite boxes for free for up to 4 rooms. We'll all seen these commercials, but (please correct me if I'm wrong) they charge $5 per room/month after the first box. So is that free?

The sat providers I know of(D*/E*) charge an extra $5 or so for access to the programming on more than one receiver. That's not the same as charging for the hardware. They have all sorts of deals and marketing(as does cable) to try to entice folks into using their service - I certianly find some of their marketing "efforts" quite distasteful myself, but I don't think that's really what we are talking about, here -- or, then again, maybe it is to some extent ...

Obviously, customers are going to end up paying for service from subscription TV services, AND, in the long run, the customers are going to pay for any hardware needed as well, ONE way or another ..... It's just possible it may not be "billed" as a "hardware" charge, and it may not be as much as if you were billed, say $18 a month for it or have to pay $250 for the receiver "up front" ....

I'm not here to make a big deal out of it. I'm thrilled you guys have alerted me to an option for my friend. :)

Maybe he can contact "Hey Howard" if he decides to look at that option but runs into any difficulty with it ;)

Nitewatchman

12-01-05, 01:05 AM

I dunno. Not saying it will do any good, but I think the more letters+phone calls WCPO (or ABC/or whomever may be "interested") gets concerning their HD PQ problems from as many folks as possible the better. If they aren't constantly reminded that people care about how ugly it looks, they might think it doesn't matter. Then again, I probably shouldn't be encourging others to do what I won't mess with any more, as I am so disgusted with them at this point I don't really care anymore WHAT they do as long as they don't go out of channel+mess up my reception on say, channel 11. But of course I can watch ABC HD from WKEF-DT, and sometimes other stations( Columbus/Lexington/ETC) OTA as well.

As for what is actually causing the issue, HOW it will actually be fixed and if/when it will get fixed, I've yet to hear a good explanation from them concerningany of that ..... Yeah, I know they say it's their encoder that's the problem and last we heard it is currently "scheduled" to be fixed 1Q 06, but .... ack .... never mind ..... we've been through all that before numerous times ....

Oh well, look at the bright side. After this year ABC is out of the Super Bowl and MNF business for a long time...

For OTA viewers, I don't see much bright side to no longer being able to watch MNF unless you also subscribe to sat or cable, unless perhaps you'd rather have Sunday night Football on NBC instead ....

jim tressler

12-01-05, 08:00 AM

I dont know if "credit" is the right word.. they basically had no choice.. In order to compete they need the local channels - period. They have said this from day one - their business model is dependent on local channels in a market. I dont think there would be enough transponder space in the sky to do everything mpeg2 - so mpeg 4 is what they needed, and had to do.. Lets not forget that the original plan for the spaceway's was to do internet and data.. not hd locals :)

As far as the transition.. IMHO - I think they should have been more open - but hell as long as its "free" for me I am on board!

OTOH, this transistion to MPEG4 has got to be a difficult thing for D*, and certianly I'm sure they knew it wasn't going to be perfectly smooth sailing -- so I guess you gotta give them some credit for going for it ...

Paul210

12-01-05, 09:43 AM

For OTA viewers, I don't see much bright side to no longer being able to watch MNF unless you also subscribe to sat or cable, unless perhaps you'd rather have Sunday night Football on NBC instead ....

I'll second that! For me personally, I've never felt I've been missing anything by being OTA only. I guess that'll change next year. Now I just have to decide whether it's worth it to go another route, or whether the local watering-hole will be the better choice for the games I can't live without.

Paul

chrisdow

12-01-05, 09:45 AM

Paul210

12-01-05, 09:47 AM

terryfoster

12-01-05, 10:46 AM

Hey-Not to get off topic or distract from the "crtitical rebate/shopping days left", but I wanted to confirm that the DVR I just bought online for my F-in-Law will work with TW. (I have D*) I got him a Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8000 DVR. He's got a basic cable package $39/mo - will it be as easy as plug & play? -or will I have to involve (the evil) cable company? :) This unit it out of LA (maybe not a TW market), so I didn't know if they have any particular software or interfaces or programming specific to TW or the local market...any help would be appreciated.

Also, did I see right that the Bengal Steeler game is NOT in HD Sunday??? It's kinda a big FRICKIN' game -- ERRRG!

You will have to involve TWC as they will need to allow that box on their network. Now that may be a HUGE undertaking. He will most likely be subject to a DVR service fee and may also have to upgrade to Digipic 1000(more $$). Plus you will need to make sure that this DVR you bought has the Pioneer software installed on it rather than the SARA software. I believe this is all going to be more trouble than it's worth.

I would highly recommend a TiVo device that will certainly work as long as he has a phone line or broadband internet connection. Yes, there is a monthly fee involved (if you don't buy lifetime service), but that will be less than the TWC option. You might consider the 80 hour model as this is 80 hours at the lowest quality and would equal around 22 hours of highest quality recording.

chrisdow

12-01-05, 10:58 AM

terryfoster

12-01-05, 11:17 AM

OH MAN! I knew the cable co was evil! I hate all this proprietary BS! The SA box I got was $60 with 50 hrs of rec. time...I don't want to give a present that costs the guy more...$$...& heartache...I was trying to avoid the whole Tivo subscription fee thing...so why, then do people buy these boxes at all??? -esp since TW has got a grip on it so tight...ie. would it be more economical to just rent it from them & I somehow pre-pay for a year? (when I called TW my pre-pay would just credit in one lump sum...not real giving IMO)...

I think those boxes are usefull in Canada and maybe some other cable systems, but I don't think TWC supports users buying their own boxes.

If your dad has decided that basic cable is right for him, then I would not recommend renting from TWC. Again, I believe that he would need to upgrade to Digipic 1000 because I don't think they allow digital boxes on basic service.

You do have the option to pre-pay service for TiVo...
TiVo Service Gift Options (http://www.tivo.com/2.9.1.asp)
80 TiVo with one year of service is ~$300 if you buy new from their site.
Beware of satellite TiVo units on eBay if you go that route.

TL2000

12-01-05, 11:53 AM

I have been reading all over the place in the last few days, but has anyone heard when Cincy will get D* locals in HD? I thought they were supposed to come in 2005.

ScottA

12-01-05, 11:54 AM

You will have to involve TWC as they will need to allow that box on their network. Now that may be a HUGE undertaking. He will most likely be subject to a DVR service fee and may also have to upgrade to Digipic 1000(more $$). Plus you will need to make sure that this DVR you bought has the Pioneer software installed on it rather than the SARA software. I believe this is all going to be more trouble than it's worth.

I currently have TW's HD receiver and was wondering if it can be replaced with purchased equipment instead of paying their high rent. I have the DigiPic 4000 to watch premium channels and like the OnDemand channels (which is why I didn't go with CableCard). Are these features available through any receiver or only those provided by TW?

Scott A

ATM

12-01-05, 12:12 PM

jim tressler

12-01-05, 12:36 PM

We are #30 or #31 or #35 - something like that.. anyway.. it looks like we will get them mid 2006 - kinda depends on when spaceway 2 is handed off.

jim

I have been reading all over the place in the last few days, but has anyone heard when Cincy will get D* locals in HD? I thought they were supposed to come in 2005.

terryfoster

12-01-05, 02:30 PM

FYI, the Wall Street Journal reported today that cable rates will rise as much as 6%. The article goes on to say that Time Warner will be raising cable rates in Cincinnati by 5.1%, among the highest of any of their markets. Ho, Ho, Ho and a happy new year to you too.

Yeah, checkout twcinci.com (http://www.timewarnercable.com/cincinnati/products/packages.html) and see the new pricing scheme.

Nitewatchman

12-01-05, 04:54 PM

Looks to me like it's supposed to be in HD...
http://www.hdsportsguide.com/nfl.php

Also, from the CBS website:
Sun., Dec. 4th
NFL
The NFL Today 12-1 p.m.
Houston @ Baltimore 1-4 p.m.
Tennessee @ Indianapolis 1-4 p.m.
Buffalo @ Miami 1-4 p.m.
Cincinnati @ Pittsburgh* 1-4 p.m.
Jacksonville @ Cleveland 1-4 p.m.
N.Y. Jets @ New England* 4:15-7 p.m.
Denver @ Kansas City* 4:15-7 p.m.
* -- HDTV

Yep, just as yet another data point -- during one of the CBS games last week, when they put up the list of HD games for this coming weekend, Bengals at bucs had "HDTV" beside it ..

Nitewatchman

12-01-05, 06:30 PM

I dont know if "credit" is the right word..

I was thinking more along the lines that they deserve credit for going all out and getting things rolling with it - even at at time when the encoders for MPEG4 may not be quite 100% "fair and a middlin" yet", and given that they are the first of the two "big" DBS providers to do so ...

they basically had no choice.. In order to compete they need the local channels - period. They have said this from day one - their business model is dependent on local channels in a market. I dont think there would be enough transponder space in the sky to do everything mpeg2 - so mpeg 4 is what they needed, and had to do.. Lets not forget that the original plan for the spaceway's was to do internet and data.. not hd locals :)

Yes, that's the gist of it, but I don't know if I'd agree that they didn't have any other choices. I guess it works though as long as you can convince folks(which unfortunetly doesn't seem to be too hard) that it's better to pay a subscription fee to receive your locals rather than receive them off the air for free.

WebHopperWeasel

12-01-05, 06:55 PM

All,

I thought WKRC ran a nice piece on H/DTV+the DTV transistion tonight on Local 12 news --- I thought they did an excellent job packing a lot of info(accurate info on the transistion no less) into a few minutes -- Kudos to Paula+Ken(Yes, they even gave an engineer some on air time!) for the report ....

Thanks I appreciate your comments. There is alot of issues to be addressed and so little time (1:30) so I tried my best to be accurate and to the point.
Weasel

Nitewatchman

12-01-05, 07:42 PM

Nice work Ken -- Happy Holidays+Wish everyone at WKRC a Merry Christmas from us here at AVS ... and as allways, thanks for the HD!

BTW, thought the HD/remastered "Rudolph" looked excellent last night, and they did it "right" --- OAR 4x3 ! Although I must admit It turneed out I happened to be watching it on WHIO-DT -- oops! ....

I'm not sure, but I think that might have been a first for CBS ... Only other ones I can think of at the moment that have aired HD, OAR+4x3 have been "The Wizard Of Oz" on WB, and "Bambi" on ABC ...

ATM

12-01-05, 08:01 PM

Here is the response from WCPO about the poor picture.

"We are purchasing a new HDTV encoder before the end of the year and we are
installing it in January. You will se a remarkable improvement. It will be
worth the wait. It is a very high dollar improvement."

Regards,

Joe

Joseph Martinelli Sr.

jim tressler

12-01-05, 11:13 PM

Weasel - was that you on the segment with Paula Toti?? Well done!

So when can we expect dd5.1 :)

Thanks I appreciate your comments. There is alot of issues to be addressed and so little time (1:30) so I tried my best to be accurate and to the point.
Weasel

nightowl2k2

12-01-05, 11:19 PM

Does anyone know the digital channel that WCPO is broadcasted on for TWC in Cincinnati? I am in Loveland and I get WLWT, WKRC, WXIX, and KET but I have not found WCPO or CET.

cokebear

12-01-05, 11:27 PM

Does anyone know the digital channel that WCPO is broadcasted on for TWC in Cincinnati? I am in Loveland and I get WLWT, WKRC, WXIX, and KET but I have not found WCPO or CET.

107.2 I think.
Check back in the thread a few pages we were discussing it a few days ago.

nightowl2k2

12-01-05, 11:56 PM

JunkyardDogg

12-02-05, 01:16 AM

chrisdow

12-02-05, 09:46 AM

"If your dad has decided that basic cable is right for him, then I would not recommend renting from TWC. Again, I believe that he would need to upgrade to Digipic 1000 because I don't think they allow digital boxes on basic service."

R U sure? A TW service rep just let it slip that I could (w/just basic service) get recording capabilities w/the SA 8000 dvr - anyone out there that can confirm? If I go the Tivo option, I'd still have to bump up to the Digital, right? -some $17+ MORE/mo, ouch!

Also, R we all certain now that the Bengal game is in HD - or R we just best-guessing? finger's crossed! -CJ's planning something special in the endzone...

Paul210

12-02-05, 09:49 AM

Looks to me like it's supposed to be in HD...
http://www.hdsportsguide.com/nfl.php

Also, from the CBS website:
Sun., Dec. 4th
NFL
The NFL Today 12-1 p.m.
Houston @ Baltimore 1-4 p.m.
Tennessee @ Indianapolis 1-4 p.m.
Buffalo @ Miami 1-4 p.m.
Cincinnati @ Pittsburgh* 1-4 p.m.
Jacksonville @ Cleveland 1-4 p.m.
N.Y. Jets @ New England* 4:15-7 p.m.
Denver @ Kansas City* 4:15-7 p.m.
* -- HDTV

This is my "best guess". Is that good enough for you?

And who EVER cared what showboating Chad did in the endzone other than himself?

jim tressler

12-02-05, 09:58 AM

Well.. I for one am not holding my breath!! WKEF will be just fine for me :)

I am guessing WCPO-DT wants to get HD working before the Superbowl. HD during the Superbowl has become very important in the last several years, remember last year with TWC and WXIX? I think they should have everything fixed by Superbowl, or I will just watch WKEF-DT.

jim tressler

12-02-05, 10:11 AM

Another source:

http://www.directvsports.com/Schedules/Packages/NFLSundayTicket/

Shows WhoDey in HD - now we just have to hope channel 12 hits the switch - they are usually spot on, so no real worries :) - too bad they dont have dd5.1 - I will probably watch the game on WHIO CBS Dayton as they have dd5.1

Although HDsports is highly accurate - if they say its hd I take their word for it

Also, R we all certain now that the Bengal game is in HD - or R we just best-guessing? finger's crossed! -CJ's planning something special in the endzone...

luebster

12-02-05, 10:58 AM

During last week's game and on their website, CBS has/is indicating the game is HD. They are using their #2 broadcast crew, so I would think the HD truck rolls with them as well.

tomzah

12-02-05, 12:35 PM

I was wondering if anyone on the greater Cincy area is using the Sony DHG- HDD250 OTA tuner HD recorder. I have been thinking about picking one up.
Thanks
TP

terryfoster

12-02-05, 01:22 PM

R U sure? A TW service rep just let it slip that I could (w/just basic service) get recording capabilities w/the SA 8000 dvr - anyone out there that can confirm? If I go the Tivo option, I'd still have to bump up to the Digital, right? -some $17+ MORE/mo, ouch!

I am making assumptions based on my knowledge of their pricing structure. There are probably loop holes that you can work. I'm not saying, "Don't do this!" I'm just trying to warn you that this could be a frustrating process and offering proven alternatives.

If you are successful with the SA8000 route, you will save your dad $7.95 a month in cable box rental fees from TWC. You will be adding $9.95 a month in DVR service fees to his cable bill. If this all works out it will be cheaper than TiVo.

I believe you are heading into uncharted waters and I highly recommend you should expect some difficulties along the way. Your dad should be vigilant in checking the cable bill to make sure they don't automatically upgrade his service or tack on the rental fee (TWC Employee, "Huh, this guy is getting DVR service without renting a cable box, I should fix this."). You may want to get agreements in writing from TWC. I will also warn you that TWC CSRs are known for not knowing what they are talking about.

Nitewatchman

12-02-05, 02:09 PM

107-2 is not correct. It remaps to 12-1 (WKRC).

Hasn't this been covered already earlier in this thread?

Here are some relevant posts:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6570941&highlight=107+2#post6570941

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6569939&&#post6569939

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6567093&&#post6567093

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6569173&&#post6569173

chrisdow

12-02-05, 03:04 PM

[QUOTE=terryfoster]If you are successful with the SA8000 route, you will save your dad $7.95 a month in cable box rental fees from TWC. You will be adding $9.95 a month in DVR service fees to his cable bill. If this all works out it will be cheaper than TiVo.QUOTE]
One last thing & I'll move off this, R U 100% sure I couldn't just plug his basic coax cable/plan in back of DVR & it'd record? - I was under the impression (If I went the pay route) it's be $17+ more /mo - it's it's close to Tivo $10/mo I'd likely do that just to not have to "cow-tow" to cable co...

cokebear

12-02-05, 03:54 PM

107-2 is not correct. It remaps to 12-1 (WKRC). I have not been able to find WCPO or CET yet amongst all of the digital channels that my Toshiba plasma picked up. I could check all of the digital channels but I would rather not since I have a new plasma and I do not want to risk burn in with fresh phosphers.

Yeah we did go over this a few days ago and did not come to a definitive answer. I also have a Hitachi (50v715) and can't find those channels either but after talking to TWC I at least found out that WCPO is on 693MHz which is about 107-2. When I enter this directly into my set it also defaults back to 12-1. I have sent an E-mail to Hitachi asking If they could shed ny light on it but have had no response as of yet. Talking with TWC was just useless.

Nitewatchman

12-02-05, 04:24 PM

Also keep in mind others have reported getting WCPO-DT just fine on 107.2 Cable RF channel/QAM from TW Cincy with their equipment. I provided a reference to one of those posts at links in my last post.

Nitewatchman

12-02-05, 08:45 PM

Let's hope WCPO-DT is able to get it straightened out in January.

Went ahead and put this all together, In case anyone is interested follows is much of my communication with WCPO on their "jaggies" issue with personal contact info removed, as well as some notes/Timeline on what I've experienced from WCPO-DT over the years ..... I *think* posting the info from WCPO is OK, as it's pretty much all technical in nature, but if I'm wrong and I or mods need to delete it(or some of it) feel free to let me know or do so ....

UPDATE : Sorry folks, reading over this again I realized there was some info in there from WCPO engineer that shouldn't be posted here for various reasons, so(my own decision, noone asked me to remove it) I've removed those portions. The info I wanted to provide in this post seems pretty much impossible to provide without some of those comments, but that's the way it goes ..... Again, apologize for the "disruption" .....

A bit of a "timeline" :

Fall 98 - Present - WCPO-DT provides ABC HD, including with the same GI(General Instrument - Now Motorla) encoder they are using currently. Don't know when they started doing it, but at least from Fall 2001~Spring 2003, they were upconverting to 1080i for broadcast. According to Mr. Martenelli at WCPO-DT in a email from him earlier this year or late last year, He said he made the switch and started sending 720p sometime in Spring 2003 after assesing the situation and decision by his predecssor/etc to use 1080i.

Late winter/Early Spring 2003 - I'd heard through the "vine" that WCPO-DT was planning on dropping the upconversion to 1080i, and did several close comparisions between ABC HD from WCPO-DT+WDTN-DT(then Dayton ABC affiliate) before and after the change. I"d thought given that the set I was using was 1080i Native and that I was using DTC-100, that it might not do as good of job, but for the most part that didn't turn out to be the case. ABC HD from WCPO-DT/WDTN-DT was pretty much the same before, and after WCPO-DT switch from 1080i, except that MPEG2 compression artifact issues from WCPO-DT(given the 9-2 weather channel+1080i) pretty much went away -- They were especially noticable during 2003 HD superbowl+spinning graphics/etc.

So :

Nov 2001~early 2003 -- No "jaggies" from WCPO-DT at 1080i during ABC HD.

Early 2003~Summer 2004 - No "jaggies" issue from WCPO-DT at 720p during ABC HD. Certianly not that I ever saw, including during 2003~2004 MNF HD football season, nor did anyone ever report an issue with it here at the time.

Summer 2004 - WCPO moves their studio location, including, obviously, equipment for the DTV station --- except anything that is "new" I would assume. The GI/Motorla encoder is not new, it's the same one they've been using all along.

Late Summer 2004 - Jim Tressler is first to notice the "jaggies" issue with WCPO-DT/ABC HD and reported about it here. Soon, we pretty much all noticed it, "sooner or later".

Nov 2004 - I took some screenshot comparisons between WCPO-DT/WKEF-DT during MNF HD football demonstrating the issue, and in addition to posting them here, also sent them to WCPO, along with detailed descriptions of the issue/etc.
In a response from their DOE, he seemed to be thinking along the lines that it was an issue that was effecting some chipsets on the decoder end, and he mentioned that he wondered what equipment(models/brands/chipsets/etc) were being effected. I then asked AVSmembers who were seeing and not seeing the issue to post a equipment list+whether or not they were getting the problem. Receiving about 30 or so responses -- about 28 which did notice the issue and I think 2 which did not(even though those 2 that didn't see it were using the exact same equipment as some of the other 28), I sent that to WCPO DOE as excel spreadsheet along with additional notes, and in response their DOE thanked us+said that it would be helpful in his research of the issue.

Early 2005 --- One of our Cincinnati members sent AVSforum member and MPEG2 expert dr1394 a capture/sample of WCPO-DT's datastream during ABC HD. dr1394 analyzed it with a reference software decoder and found that something in their(WCPO-DT) signal chain for ABC HD was downsampling it to 1280x360. Note that this has nothing to do with the decoder end, it's something that's there IN the datastream WCPO-DT is sending. The encoder is spitting out 1280x720, but 1280x360 are all the "actual" unique pixel data that is making it through from the 1280x720 ABC HD feed, for some reason. I contacted WCPO DOE about this and sent the info about what Ron found, at the same time I contacted them about a PSIP issue they were having on 3/4/05(which they immediately addressed ). This was my first message on 3/4/05 :

Greg, Joe --

I've noticed WCPO doesn't seem to be sending PSIP channel remapping information for the past couple of days. I just checked it at 11:50am, and it's still just showing up on 10-1, 10-2.

Except for receivers which ignore PSIP and use DirectV EPG for tuning -- Other Receivers are not remapping to 9-x, and instead are seeing it on RF channel only.(10-1, 10-2). I didn't notice it until Wednesday Evening, however another viewer noticed the missing remap Wednesday afternoon, as he reported here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5266393#post5266393

Also, Has Any progress been made concerning the issue which has been occuring since sometime not long after your studio move last summer : the issue that is causing ABC HD feed to be downsampled to 1280x360 before it reaches HD encoder? Even though the encoder is sending out 1280x720p much of the unique pixel data that should be there is missing. A MPEG "expert" which analyzed the WCPO-DT bitstream with a reference software decoder+other software tools discovered this is the issue that is causing the "jaggies" most folks are seeing. I also notice that the reduced resolution is often quite apparent when comparing to other sources of ABC HD, such as WKEF-DT, Dayton, and noticed during Oscars on Sunday when the SD feed was present for a time that there was no, or little apparent increase of resolution when it "switched" to HD feed ...

Thanks,
Jeff

[Note that I probably should have said there was no, or little apparent increase of vertical resolution -- I dunno why I said that, other than the jaggies, it does look better than SD, but you can see the difference in resolution between WKEF-DT+WCPO-DT during AC HD ]

In a response I received to the above, in addition to explaining what he did to fix the PSIP issue occuring at the time, WCPO engineer said it was possible the encoder they have is having a problem with newer chipsets, and said motorla was "coming in april(05) to do a upgrade and calibration of the encoder". He also said "at that time, the jagged diagonal lines and compatability issues will be addressed", and also said that their encoder output was 1280x720p. He also asked me to get with him at end of April to let him know If I was still seeing the issue.

So, in a response to his later response, noting his comment about encoder output at 1280x720p, and that it sounded like they were still thinking along the lines of it being a "chipset specific" issue, I again went through the details of what Ron(dr 1394) found, including providing links to Ron's posts about it here on this thread. Here is the email I sent :

Joe,

Thanks much. PSIP remapping is working fine here now from WCPO-DT as of 12:55pm EST. Seems like I recall your PSIP generator "sneezed" like that sometime last summer as well.

Concerning the encoder, thanks for the good news concerning the upgrade+calibration/etc. Hopefully they will discover what is causing the issue, and be able to make the necessary corrections. I will be happy to report back to you in april.

I am seeing the problem on RCA DTC-100 which uses an early model chipset(DTC-100 came on market in 1999, and was one of the first ATSC receivers), as well as Zenith HDV420 which uses 4th generation Zenith chipset. The issue was not occuring prior to your studio move, I've been watching HD from WCPO-DT since 2001 with the DTC-100 with the same Display hardware and DTC-100 firmware(version 4.37). Note that I do not see the reduced resolution and "jaggies" issue during any programming except that which originates from ABC HD feed. Local/syndicated programming/upconverts are fine, in fact the video during local news has looked very, very good since you moved to the new studio location.

I realize the encoder is sending 1280x720. When Ron Economous(spelling?) did his analysis of the WCPO-DT transport stream, he recognized that as well. The transport stream was captured by a viewer with a DTV PC card receiver and directly saved to a hard drive and then sent to Ron, it should not have been decoded by MPEGII decoder, the stream went direction to the hard drive. Ron used a reference software decoder to analyze the bitstream, and he seemed quite sure this wasn't an issue on the receiver side. What he said he discovered was, the reduced resolution is "there" in the bitstream itself -- The encoder is sending 1280x720, but all the unique pixel information is not there --- Instead, the effective resolution is 1280x360 -- It was his belief that something in the signal chain was sampling at 1280x360 instead of 1280x720, and thus what results by the time it comes out of your encoder is 720p, but instead of having all the necessary unique pixel data, it is more or less a sort of "upconverted" or "line doubled" version of the 1280x360 .. And, I would expect some equipment on the user end may make the "jaggies issue" less noticable in some cases.

Follows is a link to some thoughts on the issue from Rory Boyce, a engineer at ABC HD affiliate KXTV in Sacramento, CA:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4929714#post4929714

Follows are links to Ron's messages detailing what he found when he analzyed WCPO-DT bitstream, which explains what he found better than I can. Ron has worked quite extensively with MPEGII, and MPEG/HD encoders, and I've allways found his comments to be useful, accurate and informative :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4964887#post4964887

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4970734#post4970734

Thanks again for your time and consideration,

Jeff

On that same day, after going through that, I quicky received another response from WCPO's DOE, this time, he said that by august they were getting entirely new, all digital rack of equipment from ABC, and he said by the time football season(05) started their signal would be "pristine". He also said, if approved, he planned on getting a new encoder next year(06) and using the current one as a spare.

Early may 2005 - Contacted WCPO as I was asked to follow up, reporting I hadn't seen a change. Here is my email to them :

Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 10:50 AM
To: Martinelli, Joe
Subject: Re: WCPO digital PSIP missing and HDDV

Joe,

To follow up as you had asked me to get back with you at end of April(sorry I was a bit late, I've been very busy here as well), presumably after Motorla had done their upgrades/calibration on your GI encoder :

I haven't noticed any change in quality, the problem is still there duing ABC HD programming.

Hopefully, it will be straightened out with the upgrades from ABC later this summer. I'm still puzzled however at what the actual cause of the issue is, and why we getting the "jaggies"/1280x360 "effective" resolution issue at any time I noticed prior to last summer.

Thanks,

Jeff

Here is a portion of the reply to the above I received :

:quote

it is broadcasting at 1280x720. Motorla said they have had a problem with the jaggies and the upgrade should fix that. The upgrade should take place in August. (3rd quarter). <portion removed> -

Regards,

Joe

Joe Martinelli

Director of Engineering
WCPO-TV WCPO-DT
1720 Gilbert Avenue
Cincinnati, Ohio 45202

:end quote

Also in the reply, he mentioned he had put in to purchase a new encoder Next year(06).

and my subsequent response to that reply:

Joe,

1st off a correction. In the last sentence of my message it should have said(changes bolded) :

Hopefully, it will be straightened out with the upgrades from ABC later this summer. I'm still puzzled however at what the actual cause of the issue is, and why we were not getting the "jaggies"/1280x360 "effective" resolution issue at any time I noticed prior to last summer.

Secondly, concerning 1280x720 ... I thought we had already covered that In an earlier message, below[note: we were keeping the same "thread" subject of emails going all the way from back in March, so this email is the one with the links etc posted above for the 3/4 date]. Yes, I realize You are broadcasting/your encoder is Sending 720p. However, for some reason, during ABC HD(only during ABC HD), only 1280x360 "unique pixels" are being sent ... That is why I'm calling it 1280x360 effective resolution. For some odd reason all of the unique pixels(1280x720) from ABC HD feed are not "getting through" from ABC HD feed ...

As I understand it, This is not something that is happening on the decoder end, as I explained before, during ABC HD 1280x360 "unique pixels" per frame is all that is there in your datastream according to a fellow who analyzed it .... as "only" 1280x360 unique pixels.

I expect some piece of equipment in the signal chain BEFORE the encoder is effectively downsampling to 1280x360, and what we are getting from your encoder could also be "effectively" described as a line doubled(upconverted to 720p) version of 1280x360 "unique" pixels ...

Note that again, this was NOT/was NEVER a problem (and you were using the same GI(motorola) encoder, and presumably the same sat receiver/etc) BEFORE your studio move last summer ... So you were using the same encoder, and I was using the same equipment on my end ... So, what is it that changed during or shortly after the studio move which begin causing the "jaggies" and reduced actual "effective" resolution?

As we had discussed at a much earlier date, I had spoken to a engineer who had a problem with Motorola encoder which HE had said wanted to only "use 16x16" macroblocks whearas most modern decoders use 8x8 macroblocks ... This would seem to be along the lines of what you/motorola are saying, howevver, an MPEG expert I know has told me that MPEG2 ONLY uses 16x16 macroblocks ... And again, everything was fine BEFORE the studio move ... This issue was just not there ...

I of course do not know before/after the studio move what has changed in the equipment chain at WCPO that ABC HD passes through, and don't know what, if any settings were changed on the encoder/sat receiver/etc. before/after the studio move, the only thing I have noticed that did change is that the your local ID bug, and it's placement changed -- I assumed that prior to your studio move, the encoder(most of which I know can do a simple local bug insertion) was inserting the "old" WCPO-DT 10 bug(in upper portion of frame) -- If it's just a change in placement and the encoder is still inserting the bug, that doesn't seem like it would be an issue, however, perhaps if you are using some other "new" piece of equipment to insert the bug, is it possible it may be the "culprit" concerning the piece of equipment which since at least late august 2004 is effectively downsampling 1280x720p from ABC feed to 1280x360 before it reaches the encoder?

----------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks again for your time and efforts on this,

Jeff

------------------------------

And, that's the point where I pretty much gave up .....

hpm123

12-02-05, 08:55 PM

Anyone here using a SIR-T451 HD tuners QAM function on Time Warners system? Everytime I do a channel scan on the cable channels, it gets up around the 94 to 101 channel and then reboots. Does this everytime and has done it on 2 different boxes. The channels it adds before it craps out give a "no signal" when I tune to these channels.

Tried a LG-3510 w/ QAM prior to this unit and it would scan the channels fine. Can't find any such symptoms on the 451 doing a googly search. Curious if anyone is using this box - thx

hpm123

12-02-05, 09:03 PM

WCPO-DT Jaggies (cough 1280x360 unique pixels cough cough) ....

=======================================

haha.. "walk to wall, do 3 forward thrusts striking forehead against said wall"

There. Now wasn't that less painful than discussing "jaggies" with WCPO's technical staff?? Sure it was.

Nitewatchman

12-02-05, 11:11 PM

haha.. "walk to wall, do 3 forward thrusts striking forehead against said wall"

There. Now wasn't that less painful than discussing "jaggies" with WCPO's technical staff?? Sure it was.

LOL ... First and formost, I expect they have had had their hands full dealing with the studio move, including taking care of the analog station.

As for the New encoder(fingers crossed Jan 06 IS the date this time) --- I'm sure we'll benefit as whatever they are getting likely does more efficent MPEG2 encoding than what I'd think has to be a 1st generation HD encoder, especially given the multicast weather channel. I'm sure it offers other benefits for them/us as well. But, as for if "it" will fix the problem, given the "info" we do know on it, I just have no way of knowing for sure and, at this point it doesn't look like we'll ever find out. For instance, I've yet to hear the reason why a MPEG2 encoder that never had a problem with "jaggies" at either 1080i or 720p(including with the use of the same equipment on user end -- my end anyway) before the studio move started having the problem after the studio move ... Unless it's just my "eyes" playing tricks .... I'm not saying it doesn't have "a problem" for some reason, I'd just be interested in knowing what that issue, specifically, is.

Sure, when an engineer says they've got a resolution to a problem, and some new piece of equipment will do the job, I generally take their word for it as I assume they know what they are talking about. And, I also realize just how difficult diagnosing and getting such an issue fixed can be. But, besides just being curious, the reason why I'd like to know what, specifically is causing the issue -- and what, exactly "fixes it" is because on a number of occasions in the past, when such technical issues have arisen it has turned out to be the case that when it also happens somewhere else, I think we've sometimes been able to help out+pass the info along and I think perhaps in some cases help facilitate a "smoother", and perhaps more "rapid" resolution to the issue. Which I think not only can turn out to be beneficial for us viewers, but also for the station/station engineers as well. But, what do I know ..... Oh, well. In this case, at this point anyway, It looks like we may never find out, what exactly is causing the issue to occur, even when/after it does get fixed.

OF course, another way WE(as in as many folks as possible) can help by contacting the station is that if NOONE calls and reports having an issue that requires a item for the "budget", the technical staff might have a more difficult time convincing management that they need something than if their phone lines light up like a christmas tree, such as what can happen if the analog station goes off air .....

DrDon

12-03-05, 09:00 AM

Just a note to those of you in my former hometown: I'm looking at the possibility of putting together a Newbie OTA Antenna FAQ (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=611957) on the Hardware page. I'd appreciate some submissions, if you have the time. I know the Cincy area was one of the first to go live with DTV and I know all of us who live(d) there have more than a passing knowledge of hanging aluminum. All help is appreciated. Take a look and let me know.

Thanks
Doc

hpm123

12-03-05, 09:28 AM

I spoke to one of the lead guys, can't remember his name at the moment, but it's in a prior thread. The very first time I spoke to him, as soon as I said the word "jaggies", he cut me off mid-sentence and finished my thoughts to the tee. He knew exactly what the issue was, confirmed it was an issue, confirmed they were aware of it, and told me they'd have it fixed before the new fall channel lineup came out this year. This was to be around Sept of this year. This was the update after the update that said they were going to get this issue fixed around July-August I believe it was.

He then gave me his direct phone line number and told me to call if I noticed any improvement. I got through to him on my first 2 tries before he gave me his direct line. After that if I direct dialed him once I probably made 20 attempts over a period of 2 months and rolled into his voicemail every time from that point on. Every time. CallerID is one hell of a technical innovation I'm here to tell you. I know I could have again gone through the main switchboard and probably had a better chance of getting him than being abused the way I was! Now I know how some of my old girlfriends must have felt!

I'm just being facetious as this really didn't bother me, nor did I expect this guy to take my calls.. I just found it interesting behaviour and on par with how this whole issue has progressed with WCPO. I'm not sure what the gig is down there but sporting events, especially MNF and with the BCS bowl games coming up, bring the eyeballs. And eyeballs are the game in the TV broadcasting world. I'm not going to name names but I would assume whomever is calling the technical shots down there is one of those career employees, out of touch with the impact a progressing technology such as HD has on a blossoming viewership and doesn't understand how an issue like this can reflect upon a company brand. The key point being the latter.

So I'll just gripe since I don't work there and can't do anything add'l over what attempts I've already made to bring this to their attention. I don't advertise so I can't leverage on that front. I sure hope they do get it fixed before all the bowl games and the SuperBowl begin. But, I'll believe it when I see it.

nightowl2k2

12-03-05, 01:53 PM

I appreciate all of the help in my quest to get WCPO and CET in HD. I have looked through all of the posts and I have checked 107-2 and 85-2. 107-2 remaps to 12-1 and 85-2 remaps to 19-2. I have a Toshiba 42HP95 plasma and it works great with WLWT, WKRC, WXIX, and KET. It is just that I cannot find WCPO or CET in all of the digital channels.

slimm

12-03-05, 02:20 PM

I am guessing WCPO-DT wants to get HD working before the Superbowl. HD during the Superbowl has become very important in the last several years, remember last year with TWC and WXIX? I think they should have everything fixed by Superbowl, or I will just watch WKEF-DT.

Do the "jaggies" just apply to MNF or all WCPO-DT sports? The reason I ask is because I'm watching the Texas/Colorado game in HD on WCPO-DT and I don't see the "jaggies". I know what they look like because I've seen them on MNF and they are horrible. There are two other games on tonight. It will be interesting to see whether they are "jaggie free".

Nitewatchman

12-03-05, 03:06 PM

I'm not sure what the gig is down there but sporting events, especially MNF and with the BCS bowl games coming up, bring the eyeballs. And eyeballs are the game in the TV broadcasting world. I'm not going to name names but I would assume whomever is calling the technical shots down there is one of those career employees, out of touch with the impact a progressing technology such as HD has on a blossoming viewership and doesn't understand how an issue like this can reflect upon a company brand. The key point being the latter.

I know what you're saying, and I think it's the case that a lot of broadcast engineer's out there aren't really fully up to speed yet on DTV/HD -- Part of that I think is because they have their hands full dealing with "other" issues, and I think part of it may be that the profession may just need a lot of new folks who are as comfortable with Bits and Bytes as they are IOT's and RF .... But, I personally tend to have a lot of respect for those guys, and I wouldn't be too quick to jump to any conclusions or assumptions involving any individual/etc. "Blaming" WCPO/Scripps for not getting the issue fixed yet is good enough for me.

Anyway, on Page 24~26 and page 28 at following link(requires acrobat reader) I think there are some excellent comments from those within the industry itself which I think you will be interested in, as some of them I think relate to you comments :

http://www.tech-notes.tv/Archive/tech_notes_132.pdf

------------------------------

I appreciate all of the help in my quest to get WCPO and CET in HD. I have looked through all of the posts and I have checked 107-2 and 85-2. 107-2 remaps to 12-1 and 85-2 remaps to 19-2. I have a Toshiba 42HP95 plasma and it works great with WLWT, WKRC, WXIX, and KET. It is just that I cannot find WCPO or CET in all of the digital channels.

Best guess I would have at something that might help is if you're set has an option somewhere that will let you turn off the PSIP channel remapping. Some receiver's will let you turn PSIP off, some won't. Whether the problem that you are having is an issue on TW's end, or PSIP tables from the station+implementation on a cable system using both QAM slots per channel for seperate stations, or an issue with the implementation of PSIP+QAM and 2 slots used per channel for different stations by the firmware for your set/internal QAM tuner, or some combination of those, I wouldn't know but those are the lines I'm thinking along.

You're probably going to have to find someone at TW, or Toshiba that knows about, or can understand this issue to have any luck at getting it worked out, and that, unfortunetly may turn out to be more difficult than it might sound ....

You are having the same, or very similar issue as cokebear I suspect, and it would be interesting to know if the chipset used for your QAM tuner is the same one that's in his set.

Nitewatchman

12-03-05, 03:23 PM

Do the "jaggies" just apply to MNF or all WCPO-DT sports? The reason I ask is because I'm watching the Texas/Colorado game in HD on WCPO-DT and I don't see the "jaggies". I know what they look like because I've seen them on MNF and they are horrible. There are two other games on tonight. It will be interesting to see whether they are "jaggie free".

It's a problem during All ABC HD on WCPO-DT, not just sports(unless by some miracle it's been fixed -- haven't checked it in a couple of days) -- It just tends to be more noticable during live sports because of the camera angles, more "incidence" of very visable "diagonal lines". If you look closely, You'll see it on the top part ABC bug during ABC HD, and say, Sydney's sunglasses in Alias/etc/etc/etc.

I haven't personally seen it be a problem with SD/SD upconverts(just your standard interlace artifiacts there with a 1080i native display here), others say they've seen it there too though, occasionally. And, right now anyway WCPO-DT has the SD feed up for the game along with a "winter wx advisory" bug. It's HD on WKEF-DT Dayton.

slimm

12-03-05, 03:27 PM

It's a problem during All ABC HD on WCPO-DT, not just sports(unless by some miracle it's been fixed -- haven't checked it in a couple of days) -- It just tends to be more noticable during live sports because of the camera angles, more "incidence" of very visable "diagonal lines". If you look closely, You'll see it on the top part ABC bug during ABC HD, and say, Sydney's sunglasses in Alias/etc/etc/etc.

I haven't personally seen it be a problem with SD/SD upconverts(just your standard interlace artifiacts there with a 1080i native display here), others say they've seen it there too though, occasionally. And, right now anyway WCPO-DT has the SD feed up for the game along with a "winter wx advisory" bug. It's HD on WKEF-DT Dayton.

Thanks jeff. I noticed that they went to SD just before halftime. Is the advisory bug the reason they did that?

Ray

hpm123

12-03-05, 05:15 PM

Do the "jaggies" just apply to MNF or all WCPO-DT sports? The reason I ask is because I'm watching the Texas/Colorado game in HD on WCPO-DT and I don't see the "jaggies". I know what they look like because I've seen them on MNF and they are horrible. There are two other games on tonight. It will be interesting to see whether they are "jaggie free".

Didn't watch the Texas/Colorado game but currently have the USC/UCLA game on and have to say that the picture is as good as I've seen lately. This was a persistent problem (jaggies) up to about a month ago when at that point I noticed a significant improvement. And then last Mondays game was about as "bad" as I've ever seen it. I do remember someone commenting that natural grass games seem to look better than games played on the artificial turf. On this USC game, if you look at the yard lines you can see the jaggies. However they're not as pronounced as was the case last Monday.

Not sure why the difference but the picture this afternoon is looking pretty good. Quite good actually. Just noticed Virginia Tech in HD is coming on tonight at 8pm. Will be interested in how that picture looks -

Nitewatchman

12-03-05, 05:57 PM

Managed to catch a bit of the Texas/Colorado game SD+HD from WCPO-DT ... as usual, No jaggies here for the SD, "jaggies" on HD. It's really quite apparent(even near top of ABC circle in Score bug, and this time, the ABC Circle in the "ABC HD" Bug) when you can compare to another source of ABC HD such as WKEF-DT, Dayton - I can also see a drop in resolution/detail when I switch from WCPO-DT to WKEF-DT during ABC HD.

Thanks jeff. I noticed that they went to SD just before halftime. Is the advisory bug the reason they did that?
Ray

Basically Yes - most likely. They don't have the capability to insert local graphics into HD(most stations don't yet), and if they still have it set up at WCPO like they used to, it's probably setup so the digital station automatically switches to SD feed whenever they key in local graphics(weather alerts, tickers/etc) on the analog -- Hence, if they choose to run HD, someone at WCPO has to switch it "manually" to the HD feed.

Also, some stations seem to feel it's important to provide those weather warnings/etc on their digital station as well as the analog station, and some stations seem to feel having them on the analog station is enough.

dusterscott

12-03-05, 06:12 PM

I still see the Jaggies on WCPO-DT. WKEF-DT looks great as it usually does.

slimm

12-03-05, 06:18 PM

Didn't watch the Texas/Colorado game but currently have the USC/UCLA game on and have to say that the picture is as good as I've seen lately. This was a persistent problem (jaggies) up to about a month ago when at that point I noticed a significant improvement. And then last Mondays game was about as "bad" as I've ever seen it. I do remember someone commenting that natural grass games seem to look better than games played on the artificial turf. On this USC game, if you look at the yard lines you can see the jaggies. However they're not as pronounced as was the case last Monday.

Not sure why the difference but the picture this afternoon is looking pretty good. Quite good actually. Just noticed Virginia Tech in HD is coming on tonight at 8pm. Will be interested in how that picture looks -

I see what you mean. I do see the jaggies on yard lines and endzone shots although they are not as bad as I've seen them. The earlier game had no yardline jaggies or endzone jaggies.

cokebear

12-04-05, 12:21 AM

You are having the same, or very similar issue as cokebear I suspect, and it would be interesting to know if the chipset used for your QAM tuner is the same one that's in his set.

Yes that would help us out I think and if I can get in touch with a guy I know who sold me the set he may be able to tell me (he also has the same type of set as I do but 42" instead of 50").

I'm afraid I don't have a lot of patience with TWC or hopes that anyone there is knowledgeable enough to help us out, if someone does know anything about this at TWC it would probably be an engineer and just trying to get in touch with one there would be unlikely I think.

Like I said I have sent an e-mail to Hitachi but still haven't had any contact from them.

Also it would be nice to find out how many people in this area are having this problem and weather or not it is only the Hitachi sets.

hpm123

12-04-05, 08:56 AM

Just noticed Virginia Tech in HD is coming on tonight at 8pm. Will be interested in how that picture looks -

Well, I learned something with Jeffs earlier comments. WCPO-DT had the weather advisory up for the entire length of the Florida St/ Virginia Tech game last night. As such, this game was not shown in HD as originally scheduled. At the same time, WKRC-DT was not flashing the weather advisories and the LSU/Georgia game was shown in HD format. Wasn't aware these advisories would cause this on a HD broadcast. Interesting.

DrDon

12-04-05, 11:12 AM

Wasn't aware these advisories would cause this on a HD broadcast. Interesting. It depends on how the DT is switched. WCPO has, at various times, used an integrated switcher. It can be set to take the HD feed whenever the master air chain takes the regular network feed. As soon as the MCO hits any other button, the DT switches back to the analog air chain. Weather advisories require the use of an effects bank to lay the weather graphics over the network feed. Once you have that set up, you "take" the effects bank instead of the direct network feed. When the DT switcher sees that you're taking something other than the direct network feed, it automatically switches back to the analog air chain. This is done so the DT doesn't miss any local commercials, programming or interruptions. But it's a dumb switch. It doens't realize that the "local programming" consists of the network feed with a graphics overlay. It can be overridden, but it requires a second operator.

WKRC-DT is hard switched. The MCO has to remember to switch the DT in and out of local or SD programming.

WLWT-DT's switching is computerized. Unless the op reprograms the DT computer, it'll stay on the network until the next scheduled local programming, no matter what. That's how we've watched entire horse races on WLWT-DT while WLWT analog was covering a plane crash.

WXIX-DT uses Fox's splicer system. Works a lot like WLWT-DTs in that there has to be a conscious effort made to force the DT to take the analog air chain when it's not scheduled to do so.

Hope that helps.

Doc

Nitewatchman

12-04-05, 12:14 PM

WKRC-DT is hard switched. The MCO has to remember to switch the DT in and out of local or SD programming.
Doc

I've been watching WHIO-DT more lately(dd5.1/etc), but interestingly enough, contrary to what used to be the case, when I have checked it seems like the MCO's are more likely to stick with HD feed during national ad breaks than used to be the case. As, the HD ads during NFL games we've been getting have been coming through ... and, we've been getting quite a few of them during Bengals CBS HD games ... again, that's when I've been watching or checked it, which hasn't been too often when there are HD ads.

I think the switch is "smoother" now than it used to be as well .... Used to be you usually definetely knew when they were switching, and not just by looking at the PQ difference between SD upconvert from WKRC and SD upconvert during nat'l as spots from CBS HD feed ... Just figured they had been doing it at beginning of ad breaks so it was "allways" the same for local or nat'l spots ....

Sure, they have occasionally missed a few minutes of HD in the middle of a program and in the past sometimes had needed a viewer to call --- but all in all, for example comparing to WKEF-DT back when they used to have their MCO's doing the switching to/from HD feed --- I think the MCO's at 'krc have pretty much stayed on top of their duties for switching to/from HD ... And, even though that sounds like a simple thing, it probably isn't so simple when you've got a lot of other stuff to keep track of as well ...

hpm123

12-04-05, 12:19 PM

Doc - still not clear on how a weather advisory affects HD programming. I've never really paid attention to this until noticing last nights game was not b'cast in HD, and then reading Jeffs comments.

Can't determine from your comments if the local Cinti stations can have an HD broadcast with a weather advisory overlay? My simple mind at this point is telling me that that's not possible with the local stations due to their equipment. That when a station needs to put a weather bug up, it has to switch to an analog bcast format in order to superimpose.

As stated, I never really noticed if I've watched an HD broadcast that has a weather advisory or crawl superimposed. The advisory was up for the entire VT/Fl State game, and the entire game was broadcast in SD, not HD as originally scheduled. This raises another point of interest. I sure would hate to have been a VT or Florida State alumunus, and had the buddies over last night to watch the game in HD and not been able to because of a weather advisory. Who's also to say that we couldn't have a weather storm approaching during the SuperBowl game and get this game nix'd because an advisory needed to go up. Tough to argue you wouldn't want a station putting up such advisories, but does raise an interesting point.

With WKRC not flashing an adivsory last night and WCPO doing an advisory, seems to come down to station policy. Unless I'm missing a key point on the equipment side of the equation....thx

DrDon

12-04-05, 12:51 PM

With WKRC not flashing an adivsory last night and WCPO doing an advisory, seems to come down to station policy. Unless I'm missing a key point on the equipment side of the equation....thx You are. It helps if I could show you a master control switcher. It's not a policy, it's equipment. When the MCO at WCPO puts up a weather bug, the digital switching system senses that he's doing something "local" so it automatically takes the SD (analog) air chain. It doesn't know what he's doing.. could be a commercial, a newsbreak. All it "knows" is that he's not taking the direct network feed. So it responds as it's wired to to. As soon as the operator hits the button for "direct network feed" for the analog air chain, the digital air chain will switch back to the HD network feed.

WKRC-DT does not have an integrated switching system. The operator has to manually tell the digital air chain what to broadcast. He literally has to hit a switch.

None of the stations, at present, have equipment that will allow them to overlay weather graphics on the HDTV feed. Even if they did, you'd need two operators working simultaneously or one guy running back and forth to pull it off. Eventually, they'll have equipment that'll automate the whole process.

Nitewatchman

12-04-05, 01:14 PM

Also, As Doc said, given they'd have to have another operator on duty, I think maybe even in another "room"(If I recall correctly) to switch the DTV station to the HD feed if the MCO keys in the local graphics/weather bugs/etc .... If the past is any clue, and especially if there is rough weather in the area, I'd guess WCPO will probably have that 2nd op during a high profile event such as superbowl, but who knows ...

A thing to keep in mind is, while it's a "problem" for HD viewers missing some HD when they do insert local crawls/weather bugs/etc, on the other hand, when they(presumably still at WCPO) have it set up with an integrated switcher so the digital station automatically "switches" to the HD feed whenever the analog station goes to Net --- It's an asset for viewers, as there's no way for the MCO to "miss" the switch to/from ABC HD. Although the MCO's at WKRC-DT get it right for the most part, typically at many stations that have done "manual" switching to/from HD feed by the MCO -- Missing the switch to/from HD feed has often been a problem, as for example, it's just another "extra" thing that the MCO has to do, and since all human's have some "human error" factor built in, the more tasks in a multitasking situation you have, the more often "errors" are possible ...

So, right now anyway, I think how a station decides to handle HD switching+issues involved such as this I think is often going to involve some sort of "we're d*mned if we do, d*mned if we don't" .... and a "trade-off" of what's better+what's worse ... For example, either to do it as an additional process the MCO has to take care of manually all the time and risk the MCO missing the switch to/from HD from network, or to try to set it up somewhat "automatically" so it in effect, "chases" analog master control ... when the analog station switches to the SD ABC network feed, the digital station switches to HD ABC net feed "automatically" ...

--------------------------------------------------------

Now -- when I said, farther above :

"Also, some stations seem to feel it's important to provide those weather warnings/etc on their digital station as well as the analog station, and some stations seem to feel having them on the analog station is enough."

I wasn't reffering to WCPO, specifically -- Or the technical issues involved. For example, If you notice, nowadays(and for quite sometime, actually) sometimes even WLWT-DT will drop from HD for severe weather info break-ins, or to insert "weather bugs". So, I guess what I was trying to say(but didn't do a very good job of it) is that the "policy" can, or could be an issue involved. But, I certianly don't think it is "THE" issue involved with WCPO, which I believe is as Doc pointed out in a much better+ more specific manner than I did.

None of the stations, at present, have equipment that will allow them to overlay weather graphics on the HDTV feed. Even if they did, you'd need two operators working simultaneously or one guy running back and forth to pull it off. Eventually, they'll have equipment that'll automate the whole process.

I don't know about weather graphics, but we have seen WSTR-DT insert local graphics into WB HD programming once or twice .... I think it was a News promo in which they put up at bottom portion of screen, and along with WB64 logo it mentioned some information about a story they were covering that night. I don't think it was a simple "logo" insertion done at the HD encoder as it was overlayed across the entire screen and had text specific to the story they ran that night - but who knows.

hpm123

12-04-05, 01:29 PM

Alrighty guys.. Appreciate the time and information in responding. Very interesting. Time to watch the Bengals whip-up on the Steelers -

Nitewatchman

12-04-05, 04:29 PM

Yes, good game.

I thought however that quite noticable MPEG2 compression artifacts during bandwidth demanding portions(spinning NFL logo, camera panning with a player returning to line of scrimmage during a close shot/etc.) from WKRC-DT appeared to be perhaps more of a problem duing bengals@steelers game than I've noticed anytime since they added the weather radar.

I watched quite a bit of 3rd quarter on WKRC-DT, then switched to WHIO-DT(CBS HD Dayton) and wasn't getting that in any signficantly "noticable" fashion from WHIO-DT(doesn't multicast, FWIW).

DrDon

12-04-05, 05:03 PM

I watched quite a bit of 3rd quarter on WKRC-DT, then switched to WHIO-DT(CBS HD Dayton) and wasn't getting that in any signficantly "noticable" fashion from WHIO-DT(doesn't multicast, FWIW). I'll have to brag a little. Nothing like being in a CBS O&O market AND working for the Company. They have all the latest toys for the DT. You don't even see screen-door effects during the spinning logos. They CAN manually switch, but they use CBS's auto-switching (codes sent from the network switch the DT in and out of HD). There IS no news department, so weather graphics are rare. And the DD 5.1 is monitored at the MCO position by a neat new visual display. Add to that a CE that not only gets it, but is passionate about it, and you have HD the way HD should be done.

Oh, and I got eyes-on to the timeshifting gear. WWJ-DT catches the Sunday morning primetime feed so they won't miss HD prime no matter what happens with football. Two decks, each with 90 minute recording capability. Data goes to a tape cartridge that's roughly the size of a sheet of paper and almost as thick as a VHS tape. Records the full 40mb/s datastream from the network.

Ok, geek mode off.

Nitewatchman

12-04-05, 05:23 PM

Doc,

Very cool. WHIO-DT has improved greatly since they dropped 7-2 - which interestingly enough occured during, or just after the Masters tourney I believe. I'd bet someone up there got a HD set. Audio is usually on the loud side, though - even moreso than it used to be since they added 5.1. Occasionally they have audio pops, which at first sometimes went days+days before getting fixed, lately when it happens they've got on it pretty quickly.

Not lately, but I do see WWJ 62 probably most often here out of the Detroit analogs via bit of tropo ... I've certianly been impressed with their "CBS'ness" when I do see them ...

I think I've gotten close to a lock on it once or twice when detroit was up, but no luck so far for WWJ-DT 44 ...Besides WADL-DT, WJBK-DT(prior to WPTD-DT coming up) are the only two detroit area ones I've locked ... If I'd knock down 45 Dayton a bit it would probably help a tad, but I'm already knocking enough stuff down with traps ....

Come visit us anytime Doc --

back to Den vs KC game ...

DrDon

12-04-05, 05:30 PM

I keep meaning to get back, but something up here always comes up. Finally found someone to just live in my house until I can sell it. He was complaining about Insight's HD offerings. I guess they haven't expanded since I left.

Doc

Sea Ray

12-05-05, 10:28 AM

He then gave me his direct phone line number and told me to call if I noticed any improvement

HPM,

I guess you missed the detail that he only wanted to hear from you if you saw improvement...LOL

hugenbdd

12-05-05, 10:29 PM

Anyone watching the game tonight? (ABC)

It seems much better, but I'm only watching on a 34inch tube set. So far I haven't seen any of the "local" bugs inserted into the HD stream. It also could be just me, but I haven't noticed any "jaggies" tonight? anyone else?

Did something happen I didn't catch in the thread?

jim tressler

12-05-05, 10:45 PM

they are there.. natrual grass makes them harder to see..but look at the players jersey numbers or the zebras.. you can see them clear as day.. also the graphics are jagged.. wkef out of dayton looks great as usuall tonight :)

chrisirmo

12-06-05, 08:48 AM

None of the stations, at present, have equipment that will allow them to overlay weather graphics on the HDTV feed. Even if they did, you'd need two operators working simultaneously or one guy running back and forth to pull it off. Eventually, they'll have equipment that'll automate the whole process.
An email I received from Joe Martinelli at WCPO back in September does offer a bit of good news on this front:
We will also be getting equipment needed to put breaking news and weather on HD without having to up-convert from channel 9.
This addition is apparently slated for the same time as the encoder upgrade.

jim tressler

12-06-05, 09:43 AM

yuk.. now we will have styrene leaks and other overblown coverage all the time!! maybe there will be a little left over for the actuall hd picture... lol :P

Nitewatchman

12-06-05, 10:12 AM

"Jaggies" still quite noticeable here on my 34" tube sets(Sony KD-34XBR960 or Toshiba 34HF84 - didn't check my 26" Samsung but I'm sure they were still there as well) last night from WCPO-DT. Also, I noticed during half-time+their Highlights from other games, they had dropped to SD whearas it was HD from WKEF-DT.

I hope they soon get the capability to do local HD graphics, as because of the way they are doing things they probably need it more than anyone else in the area. For instance, it's been a while but everytime I've checked just after 8:30am, GMA has been SD on WCPO-DT because WCPO inserts a local ticker.

JunkyardDogg

12-07-05, 11:06 PM

Noticed that WCET-DT had audio sync problems during Nature tonight. Since I am done with school for a month, I plan on writing and calling some of the stations and get my PSIP working on WLWT and WXIX. I will post any info I get. Hopefully WCPO will answer their phones.

Junk

cokebear

12-07-05, 11:17 PM

Thank you for writing Time Warner Cable Customer Service,

From TWC concerning WCPO passthrough.

It looks as though WCPO HD is 107-31. WCET HD is 85-7, while CET PBS is 109-8.

Time Warner Cable is always interested with the concerns of our customers. We thank you for your suggestion to help improve the service. It is this type of feedback that is vital as we strive to deliver the best service available to our customers. We do utilize this information to influence future changes.

nightowl2k2

12-08-05, 10:48 AM

Great work cokebear! I will have to check that out when I get home!

cokebear

12-08-05, 06:07 PM

OOPS

I forgot to mention that it didn't work for me. They default back to 12-1 19-1 and 109 respectively. Also tried a rescan nada. Anyhow I passed that info back to TWC so I'll let ya know if I hear any more. Also the feedback they are thanking me for is a request that they publish the QAM channel information.

TL2000

12-10-05, 12:58 AM

Nitewatchman

12-10-05, 01:34 AM

Was getting ready to count sheep but for some reason ended up thinking about cokebear+nightowl2K2's tuning issue. Especially given a post in Dayton thread recently from a Dayton area broadcast engineer who mentioned that TW WOH(Dayton+points North basically) has said they are passing along the datastream just as the station sends them(same thing OTA viewers get) except that they are changing the PID's for use on their system. I expect much the same is true for TW Cincy.

Without digging up ATSC/PSIP/MPEG2 white papers, and just going from what I can recall studying them a bit :

ATSC PID = Packet Identifer - If I recall correctly, identifies which datastream(video, audio/etc - including different video/audio streams for different program services/subchannels) each packet of information "belongs" to.

I also recall earlier this year, a New FCC rule had went into effect that required all stations to have their PID addresses at hex30 or higher due to "international coordination" issues. The reason I mention it, is because I recall when some stations changed their PID's to meet the new rules, it caused some PSIP issues with some, if not many receivers.

I also recall at the time researching the PSIP+other ATSC white papers to find the relationship between PID+MPEG program Number and or/PSIP VCT "minor channel number" and not being able to find a really clear explanation of that relationship(especially concerning the importance of PID to PSIP). One of the reasons I was interested was that I noticed with OTA receiver with PSIP turned off, a number of stations in the area started showing up with X.3 as their first program(subchannel) instead of X.1 -- that would seem to indicate a direct relationship between PID+MPEG program number as displayed by the receiver with PSIP turned off.

Although at the time, I didn't find the info I was looking for in the white papers(which did seem a bit odd, as with most things those papers do pretty much spell it all out in B&W), I did find this, at link below - which talks about the importance of having PID set up "correctly" where PSIP issues are concerned.

http://www.atsc.org/pid_changeinfo.html

I'd recommend anyone interested check out the full text at link, but For instance, here's paragraph 2 from the above link :

"It has always been a requirement of MPEG-2 systems that each stream with different information be sent in packets that have a unique PID, e.g., video packets for one virtual channel are sent in packets with a particular PID value. Audio packets for this channel have a different PID, as do all other audio and video streams for other virtual channels. The program contents for a virtual channel are also described in an MPEG-2 structure called a TS_program_map_section (PMT). Each PMT has a number called the program number. The video and audio elements are also identified in the Virtual Channel Table (VCT). These tables and numbers operate behind the scenes, but the association among them must be correct for receivers tune to and find program services properly. "

-----------------------------

So, given that with some receivers at least, there can PSIP problems if everything(including PID, relevant MPEG PMT, PSIP VCT fields/etc.) at the station isn't set up "just right" with OTA --- I'm wondering :

#1). If it's possible that a QAM capable receiver(or just some receiver models perhaps) which is relying on PSIP --- and I believe in this case the PSIP VCT(TVCT) as being sent from the station(same as we get OTA) --- could have "issues" with any PID changes done by a cableco?

#2). Or, are the PID changes the cableco would be doing fully "PSIP" compliant? -- Or -- is it possible there something "amiss" with the stations' involved PID or PSIP when it comes to the cableco's necessary PID changes?

#3). Or, would the station need to set up a seperate VCT --- the PSIP CVCT --- for cable users+for what the cableco is doing with the PID's in order to ensure that everything's "works" with the new cableco PID's?

Again, just some late night thoughts, FWIW -- which are especially hazy for me not only because it's been a while since I dug them up and read them, but again also because, from what I recall the relationships between (PMT) TS_program_map, PID, and certian PSIP VCT fields do not seem to be 100% spelled out(at least in a manner I could understand them) in the ATSC "guide to digital TV standard" and ATSC PSIP white papers, or for that matter any of their other white papers I could find which I thought might tell me something ....Or, maybe it was just me and I couldn't find it ...

Nitewatchman

12-10-05, 01:47 AM

I have recently moved and my Channel Master 3021/4221 now can only get channel 9. I have some woods between me and where I am supposed to be pointing. Can anyone recommend a good antenna for me to put up? A D* person told me to get a powered antenna, but I generally don't think they know what they are talking about. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Brian

That seems odd, especially given you're using a UHF only antenna(which doesn't work anywhere near as well on VHF as it does UHF) and are only seeing the one, current Cincinnati VHF DTV/HD station(I assume by channel 9 you are referring to WCPO-DT digital, which actually transmits on VHF channel 10, and remaps to 9.x - rather than WCPO 9 analog) ....

Is it at all possible your receiver might have defaulted to scanning "cable" frequencies from your RF input instead of "off air" when it lost power during your move? While VHF OTA frequencies(ch 2-13) are exactly the same for Cable as they are for OTA, UHF frequencies(ch 14-69) are completely different, and this is the most common reason why people only see VHF channels after a long loss of power.

Otherwise, while trees(especially while the leaves are on) can cause a very small bit of signal attenuation(they can be a factor in multipath as well, especially if the wind is blowing the limbs around) -- and especially so on the higher UHF channels -- any severe Terrain blockage issues you might have would be a much greater issue, and especially so on UHF .... Even so, still hard to explain why you would be getting VHF WCPO-DT on a UHF antenna .... unless perhaps if multipath is a bit of a culprit and you may need to try more precise aiming .... As it isn't designed for VHF, it probably doesn't have a really tight "pattern" on VHF, and hard to say where the side lobe/etc is ....

Hope some of this helps in some way at least, let us know how it goes ...

new2HDTV513

12-10-05, 03:40 PM

Hello.
I am just trying to get a simple explanation of what this is all about: :eek:
I thought I had all i could get with TWC, and my new HDTV.
Now I stumble on this and it seems some of you have both an OTA and TWC??
Why both? Is the pq better OTA? I noticed that the WB has an HD channel, why does TWC not have that on their list of HD channels? Also, if my analog stations look weak, where should i put an amplifier, primary connection running in from the outside before the splitters, or right next to my TV?
Thanks so much guys...

Sea Ray

12-10-05, 03:54 PM

You can get quite a bit with TWC. If you want WB-HD or both Dayton and Cincinnati channels then you'll need an OTA, but you might be OK with what TWC offers you

hroeder

12-11-05, 09:32 AM

cadet502

12-11-05, 12:48 PM

I know most of you are antenna receivers. . .my apartment complex is about to install Direct TV in each building. I'm currently receiving Insight Cable. My main concern is HDTV.

Obviously there is going to have to be a local antenna for local channels.

But what is the reception like? Let's say this past week during the snow storm? Assume there's a professional installation on the roof with nothing in the way, a direct line toward Cincy. . .I'm just across the river. Am I going to have interference from snow and heavy rain if I go the direct TV route? What about the premium services? HBO, Showtime, HDNet? Is the picture and sound quality going to be equal to the cable signal?

(Insight has consistently increased prices without offering much more services, so I'm seriously considering this option.)

I've had Directv for a few years now, and I can think of less than 12 times that we've lost the signal. Never had a problem with snow in winter, only dropouts in very very heavy rains.

I've had the HD package with Dtv since August, and even though I've heard of their HD described ad HDlite, I've not been disapointed in PQ with ESPNHD, HBOHD, HDNET (hockey is a blast) or any of their others.

I have a small outdoor OTA supplied with my installation, and most of the time I get a usable signal. It will be about a year and a half before Directv HD locals are rolled out here.

Never had HD with cable, so I can't make a comparison.

Nitewatchman

12-11-05, 12:57 PM

hroeder,

Rain+snow shouldn't effect OTA reception unless water gets into the feedline. Wind blowing tree limbs around can effect dynamic multipath conditions+in some cases can cause reception problems if the receiver's equalizer can't keep up with the changes in the multipath conditions.

FWIW, my OTA reception of the 15 Dayton/Cincinnati DTV/HD stations has been pretty much perfect and dropout free for 4 years -- well, there were only 5 DTV(digital terrestrial OTA TV, Not direcTV) stations on the air at this time 4 years ago, but I think you get the idea ... Did get 1 second reception related dropout on two occasions in Spring 2002 on WCPO-DT due to a very strong static crash from a very nearby lightning strike, and a couple of 1 second dropouts to WCVN-DT one evening a few years ago due to extremely, and unusually strong co-channel interference coming in off the back side via "tropo DX" from WNWO 24, Toledo, OH.

Issues involving OTA antenna system(having the "right" antenna for the job/etc)/installation/aiming issues/etc. is likely to be the #1 factor in how "good" your OTA reception is. Any severe enough terrain shielding issues(such as if you were at the bottom and the "wrong side" of a 300~500FT hill between you and the towers) would also be a big potential issue, especially so on higher UHF frequencies. From your location, given your proximity to the towers it would probably likely have to be a big hill, and you'd have to be very close to it, and on the wrong side for it to be a problem. With OTA+ given the lower frequencies/longer wavelengths used, unlike DBS/Sat, You don't need a "clear" line of sight to the transmitter for good reception. When we talk about "line of sight" for VHF/UHF OTA signals, we aren't talking about "optical" line of sight, "RF"(radio frequency) line of sight is different on VHF/UHF ....

Halfbaked,

No problems here with WXIX-DT(19.1 or 19.2) currently(OTA). A few days ago, however I noticed for a time there was no audio on 19.1 during non-Fox programming.

nightowl2k2

12-11-05, 10:41 PM

hroeder

12-12-05, 09:08 AM

Thanks Cadet502, could you detail more your comment "It will be about a year and a half before Directv HD locals are rolled out here." ? Does that mean they are solely up to the HD antennna installed with the DTV antenna?

Nightwatchman, thanks for your history and for everything you've contributed to this thread over the years. I'm in a pretty good location. On Ft. Thomas hill, so there's little in my way. These will be put on top of buildings and professionally installed, so I suspect it will be a good job. Now I have to consider the cost of an HDDVR, which only costs me $10 a month from Insight.

nees1212

12-12-05, 03:39 PM

I just recently purchased a JVC-52G786 TV, and I plan on getting a DirecTV HD-DVR receiver within the week. I've come to the understanding that an OTA antenna is needed in order to get the local channels in HD, and since it'll be in the basement, an outdoor antenna would be best. However, outside of that, I'm lost. I've read and searched around in this forum, but many things are way over my head. For those that are living in Independence, KY, what type of setup do you have (antenna, rotator, etc)?

Nitewatchman

12-12-05, 05:11 PM

nees1212,

Welcome to AVS. If you didn't find it in your searches, you might want to check out this antenna/reception FAQ thread in hardware area, as well as some of the links provided to other antenna/reception info sites :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=611957

You might also want to check out this well written article concerning OTA, antennas/installation issues +OTA HD :

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=2&article_id=738&page_number=1

cadet502

12-12-05, 07:45 PM

Right now with Directv's HD package there are only 8 national HD channels in the Cincy area. (and that includes HBO and Showtime)
HBOHD
SHOHD
ESPN2HD
ESPNHD
UHD (syndicated)
DSHD (discovery)
HDNM (movies)
HDN (new stuff and HOCKEY)

If you want the networks, with Directv, you have to go OTA. I had my Sony with built in tuner since last Jan., and got all the cincy stations with a set of rabbit ears. When Directv brought out my HD stuff, they provided a wing style antenna mounted at almost ground level and it gets all the cincy stations.

Directv is at the beginning of an agressive campaign to launch more sats, and bring HD locals to all the local markets, but cincy is way down on the list. The good news on that is that the Directv branded DVR needed for that upgrade will have a good year and a half of smoke testing before we have to commit to it here. By that time my commitment will be over, and I can choose to go back to cable if it proves a better option. (right now we're talking Adelphia so it's not an option at all)

jim tressler

12-12-05, 09:37 PM

adelphia is awfull - thats what we have out here in hamilton township - the good news (if you can say good news and cable in the same sentance) is that time warner will take over for adelphia sometime in 2006

jim

TL2000

12-12-05, 09:44 PM

That seems odd, especially given you're using a UHF only antenna(which doesn't work anywhere near as well on VHF as it does UHF) and are only seeing the one, current Cincinnati VHF DTV/HD station(I assume by channel 9 you are referring to WCPO-DT digital, which actually transmits on VHF channel 10, and remaps to 9.x - rather than WCPO 9 analog) ....

Is it at all possible your receiver might have defaulted to scanning "cable" frequencies from your RF input instead of "off air" when it lost power during your move? While VHF OTA frequencies(ch 2-13) are exactly the same for Cable as they are for OTA, UHF frequencies(ch 14-69) are completely different, and this is the most common reason why people only see VHF channels after a long loss of power.

Otherwise, while trees(especially while the leaves are on) can cause a very small bit of signal attenuation(they can be a factor in multipath as well, especially if the wind is blowing the limbs around) -- and especially so on the higher UHF channels -- any severe Terrain blockage issues you might have would be a much greater issue, and especially so on UHF .... Even so, still hard to explain why you would be getting VHF WCPO-DT on a UHF antenna .... unless perhaps if multipath is a bit of a culprit and you may need to try more precise aiming .... As it isn't designed for VHF, it probably doesn't have a really tight "pattern" on VHF, and hard to say where the side lobe/etc is ....

Hope some of this helps in some way at least, let us know how it goes ...

Ok, I am still only able to receive channel 9.1 (10). I made my receiver rescan all of the OTA channels, but I was only able to get a small amount of signal strength on one of the other channels (whatever cbs is I think). Just for fun I also tried hooking up a set of rabbit ears and can still only get 9.1.

Here is my info from antennaweb
red - uhf WOTH-LP 25 IND CINCINNATI OH 262° 4.5 25
red - uhf WBQC-CA 38 UPN CINCINNATI OH 262° 4.5 38
red - uhf WSTR-DT 64.1 WB CINCINNATI OH 311° 7.1 33
red - uhf WXIX 19 FOX NEWPORT KY 265° 7.1 19
red - uhf WXIX-DT 19.1 FOX NEWPORT KY 265° 7.1 29
red - vhf WCPO-DT 9.1 ABC CINCINNATI OH 262° 4.5 10
red - uhf WCET 48 PBS CINCINNATI OH 264° 5.7 48
red - uhf WCET-DT 48.1 PBS CINCINNATI OH 264° 5.7 34
red - vhf WLWT 5 NBC CINCINNATI OH 264° 5.7 5
red - uhf WLWT-DT 5.1 NBC CINCINNATI OH 264° 5.7 35
red - vhf WKRC 12 CBS CINCINNATI OH 256° 4.8 12
red - uhf WKRC-DT 12.1 CBS CINCINNATI OH 256° 4.8 31

The only channels I am concerned about getting are the ones in bold. I think my problem is that part of the 256 - 265 degree range is somewhat obscured by my stucco house. Is it possible that the metal in the stucco is the problem with the signal? My antenna is currently about 35-45 feet away from my house if that makes a difference. Would I be better off with another antenna or do I need to move it in front of my house somehow?

Thanks for the help and suggestions.

Brian

Nitewatchman

12-12-05, 11:21 PM

Brian,

Strange ... from your distance sounds like what might happen if there was no antenna at all hooked up to the receiver ....

At as close as ~5 miles east of the towers, unless you are at the bottom of the wrong side of a big hill* you should be getting more than enough signal from those stations you're interested in using not much more than a paper clip for an antenna - multipath issues may be another story, however. So, As for antenna goes, CM3021/CM4221 should be more than sufficent if it is properly installed+connected/etc and the receiver itself is working properly.

*-which I know is certianly possible in that area - although any such hill to the west should have to be quite close to you, and even though it is true the longer wavelength involved with VHF signals can, in a sense, "bend around" those hills better than UHF -- you'd think it would still be an issue for VHF-HI channel 10 given that you are using a UHF antenna which offers less performance on VHF channel 10 than "rabbit ears" ....

The wire-mesh in the stucco could be a potential multipath issue I suppose - especially with indoor antenna, but shouldn't really be an issue at all at 35 feet away.

Hook up the antenna to a TV with an analog tuner and see What the Cincinnati UHF analog stations(especially 19,25,38,48) look like. Is there much snow or ghosts, or any sign of interference("squiggly lines/etc?) The analog stations broadcast off the same towers for the stations your interested in+what is going on with those may tell us something. I'd try that first before doing anything else, but below are some things you might want to think about. Also, If you have another OTA HD receiver, or can borrow a friend's you might want to try that as well to rule out problem with your receiver.

If the analog UHF reception turns out to be very snowy, you might want to check+make sure all connections are good+the coax run is in good shape and isn't "kinked" somewhere or squirrels haven't been chewing on it/etc, and if you are diplexling the runs to the sat dish/antenna that it's being done properly+the diplexors are working properly and haven't failed/etc. Also --- What exactly is in the line between the antenna+the receiver ?

It really shouldn't be the case, but it is somewhat possible I suppose that you may be getting TOO MUCH signal -- Perhaps not only from the TV stations themselves, but another possibility could be another nearby source of strong RF, such as a nearby FM transmitter could be causing your receiver to have desense problems -- Although, one would expect VHF WCPO-DT to be effected as well(usually VHF is much more likely to be effected by extremely strong FM signals than is the case for UHF).

I Have read that one of the D* receivers(can't recall which one) has been known to have "overload" problems --- If that's the case, adding extra atteunation in feedline(RS sells a variable(up to -20db) atteunator for less than $10, and/or each 2 way splitter added in the line will add approx 3~4db attenation) should help, if it's FM band signals that are a problem(I expect it isn't, but you'll see a "herringbone" pattern on analog stations if it is), a FM trap might help - RS has one of these for a few bucks as well -- It isn't the best one out there, but should be more than suffiecent given that your antenna shouldn't have any gain on FM, anyway.

Moving the antenna around to find a sweet spot for reception might be something you may need to do, but before trying that(especially in the middle of winter) lets see if we can't rule out any other issues that might be causing your problems.

Since you say you are getting some sort of signal reading on 12.1(which is the remapped channel for WKRC-DT 31 - you're probably getting the 12.1 remapping info from D* EPG, off the sat), at least that tells us the OTA UHF portion of the tuner is at least working to some extent and that you seem to be scanning for OTA UHF channels as well as VHF channels.

JunkyardDogg

12-12-05, 11:36 PM

I just want to say that I am very impressed with WCET and their commitment to HD. I have been watching their channel a lot lately and love it. There is some pixelating, but I know thats from the stupid CrEaTe channel and some bandwidth going toward community events. The station has HD cameras and uses them, something the local commercial stations don't have. It is also nice to be able to get HD 24 hours a day. Keep up the good work WCET-HD!!

TL2000

12-13-05, 12:30 AM

Brian,

Strange ... from your distance sounds like what might happen if there was no antenna at all hooked up to the receiver ....

At as close as ~5 miles east of the towers, unless you are at the bottom of the wrong side of a big hill* you should be getting more than enough signal from those stations you're interested in using not much more than a paper clip for an antenna - multipath issues may be another story, however. So, As for antenna goes, CM3021/CM4221 should be more than sufficent if it is properly installed+connected/etc and the receiver itself is working properly.

*-which I know is certianly possible in that area - although any such hill to the west should have to be quite close to you, and even though it is true the longer wavelength involved with VHF signals can, in a sense, "bend around" those hills better than UHF -- you'd think it would still be an issue for VHF-HI channel 10 given that you are using a UHF antenna which offers less performance on VHF channel 10 than "rabbit ears" ....

The wire-mesh in the stucco could be a potential multipath issue I suppose - especially with indoor antenna, but shouldn't really be an issue at all at 35 feet away.

Hook up the antenna to a TV with an analog tuner and see What the Cincinnati UHF analog stations(especially 19,25,38,48) look like. Is there much snow or ghosts, or any sign of interference("squiggly lines/etc?) The analog stations broadcast off the same towers for the stations your interested in+what is going on with those may tell us something. I'd try that first before doing anything else, but below are some things you might want to think about. Also, If you have another OTA HD receiver, or can borrow a friend's you might want to try that as well to rule out problem with your receiver.

I am using a Zenith Sat-520 with a direct run from my antenna. Using that, I do not get much receptions on 19,25,28,48. I get a barely visible picture and some sound. On 5 analog, my picture is slightly fuzzy with no ghosting, 9 and 12 are slightly fuzzy and blurry with ghosting.

If the analog UHF reception turns out to be very snowy, you might want to check+make sure all connections are good+the coax run is in good shape and isn't "kinked" somewhere or squirrels haven't been chewing on it/etc, and if you are diplexling the runs to the sat dish/antenna that it's being done properly+the diplexors are working properly and haven't failed/etc. Also --- What exactly is in the line between the antenna+the receiver ?

The run seems to be pretty good with no bad connections. Once again, it is a direct run and I am not diplexing.

It really shouldn't be the case, but it is somewhat possible I suppose that you may be getting TOO MUCH signal -- Perhaps not only from the TV stations themselves, but another possibility could be another nearby source of strong RF, such as a nearby FM transmitter could be causing your receiver to have desense problems -- Although, one would expect VHF WCPO-DT to be effected as well(usually VHF is much more likely to be effected by extremely strong FM signals than is the case for UHF).

I Have read that one of the D* receivers(can't recall which one) has been known to have "overload" problems --- If that's the case, adding extra atteunation in feedline(RS sells a variable(up to -20db) atteunator for less than $10, and/or each 2 way splitter added in the line will add approx 3~4db attenation) should help, if it's FM band signals that are a problem(I expect it isn't, but you'll see a "herringbone" pattern on analog stations if it is), a FM trap might help - RS has one of these for a few bucks as well -- It isn't the best one out there, but should be more than suffiecent given that your antenna shouldn't have any gain on FM, anyway.

Moving the antenna around to find a sweet spot for reception might be something you may need to do, but before trying that(especially in the middle of winter) lets see if we can't rule out any other issues that might be causing your problems.

Since you say you are getting some sort of signal reading on 12.1(which is the remapped channel for WKRC-DT 31 - you're probably getting the 12.1 remapping info from D* EPG, off the sat), at least that tells us the OTA UHF portion of the tuner is at least working to some extent and that you seem to be scanning for OTA UHF channels as well as VHF channels.

Thank you for all of the help, please let me know if there is any other information that I can provide.

Brian

Nitewatchman

12-13-05, 11:30 AM

I am using a Zenith Sat-520 with a direct run from my antenna. Using that, I do not get much receptions on 19,25,28,48. I get a barely visible picture and some sound. On 5 analog, my picture is slightly fuzzy with no ghosting, 9 and 12 are slightly fuzzy and blurry with ghosting.

Just in case you might want to try hooking it up to a different analog tuner(should be one in your TV) just to make sure there is nothing wrong with the receiver. But, I think I may have found the main reason why you are having problems.

All those analog stations(5,9,12,19,25,38,48 - and 36, 54+64 also for that matter) should really be crystal clear("snow free") from your distance, but perhaps with some ghosting - even though you're using a UHF antenna for both VHF+UHF. They are clear up here pretty much from 27~39 miles away and with some slight terrain issues.

It looks like it's very possible that the reason they aren't coming in so well(and neither are the digital UHF stations) is because of terrain shielding issues -- big hill near you that is in the signal paths to towers.

I took the info you provided from antennaweb+using topo software(I already had the Cincinnati tower locations plotted) I looked at the bearings+distances you provided for your results from antenna web to get a hopefully in the ballpark posistion for your location. If it is in the ballpark(which hopefully it should be if you punched in your address at antennaweb+not just your zip code), attached below as first file is terrain profile from presumably near your location(at 0 Mile marker at left) to WLWT/WCET tower(at 5.7 mile marker at right) - this shows 264 degree(magnetic) bearing at 5.7 miles to WLWT tower. I've drawn in the approximate height of WLWT-DT transmitting antenna, the blue vertical line at right. The elevation profiles to the other Cincinnati station's towers are quite similiar. The second file shows(hopefully) your approximate location -- the red lines are signal paths to WLWT/WCET tower(top) and WKRC tower(bottom).

If terrain shielding is the issue(which it would be to a pretty significant extent if your location is somewhat near where it shows in the 2nd file above), then why are you having better results on VHF, even with a UHF antenna? Because, as I mentioned earlier, the longer VHF wavelengths can "get around" the hills better than is the case on UHF.

IF terrain shielding is the problem, what can you do about it to fix it? You might not be able to "fix it" without moving elsewhere(or putting up a tall tower) -- but you can try to find a better spot to put your antenna -- The higher you can get it, I'd think the better in this circumstance, but it's hard to say. Hope this helps, wish I had better news ...

[update] - who knows, but maybe if you can get your antenna in just the right spot, perhaps you could take advantage of the telescope dome AT UC observatory(assuming they still have it) as a bit of a passive reflector(it might already be helping you out for WCPO-DT, who knows) .... If anything, it would probably end up being more of a multipath problem than something that will help, but again, who knows ....

TL2000

12-13-05, 12:23 PM

Your location is pretty close. I never really thought about it, but I guess I am blocked by a pretty significant hill. I'm now thinking that it won't make much difference if I try to move the antenna in front of my house b/c there is an enormous hill in the way..:) So based on what you said, an enormous antenna probably wouldn't help me either would it? Would my current antenna be able to pick up the dayton stations or would I need to get a large one to do that? Are the Dayton stations any better/worse than the ones we have here? Last but not least, am I wasting my time b/c I can expect D* locals some time hopefully within the next 6 months?

Thank you for all of the help, I really appreciate it.

Brian

Nitewatchman

12-13-05, 01:05 PM

I'm now thinking that it won't make much difference if I try to move the antenna in front of my house b/c there is an enormous hill in the way..:)

It's hard to say how much difference it might make -- It might not be moving it to front of house that might help, just moving it a little to a little different spot might help though ...even up/down a couple feet might make a big difference ... You'll just have to experiment to try to find a "hot spot" for the signals ... there may, or may not be one in this case ... If you can take a small TV outside with you and move the antenna around a bit to different spots in the yard/etc, it might help you to find that hot spot.

So based on what you said, an enormous antenna probably wouldn't help me either would it?

Probably not enough, but again it's hard to say. CM3021/CM4221 is already a fine antenna for UHF, and you're only going to gain a few db or so more gain by switching to the best of "fringe" antennas out there. OTOH, many have reported Yagi's to perform better in these sorts of situations.

As strange as it might seem from only 5~7 miles away, that hill probably puts you into very much a "fringe area", or "beyond fringe area" circumstance for the UHF stations, which given the transmitting antenna heights/power/etc of the local stations is normally about 55 miles~65 miles(or more) distant from their towers ..... So, also, as strange as it might seem, even a good, low noise, medium or high gain preamp may not be such a bad idea for your location(as long as it isn't overloaded by the VHF stations, which are going to be coming in stronger) -- especially if you have a long coax run. The highest gain, most directional of UHF antennas(such as antennasdirectXG91) might help out as well. Again, though, probably the best thing you could do would be to get the antenna as high as possible, and, if it doesn't make for too long of a coax run, perhaps as far to the east as possible ....

I'd say, however if you can't find a place to put your current antenna that doesn't improve things greatly, then getting the bit of extra improvement you might see with a higher gain antenna/preamp/etc. probably wouldn't be enough, or worth the effort/etc. If you can improve things with the current antenna by moving it to a different spot to where you can get at least close to getting signal locks on your desired stations, then at that point, if necessary it may be worth it to add preamp and/or move to a higher gain antenna.

Would my current antenna be able to pick up the dayton stations or would I need to get a large one to do that? Are the Dayton stations any better/worse than the ones we have here?

Concerning Dayton reception, attached is elevation profile for you to Dayton antenna farm ... You're at 0 mile marker at left(I show Dayton antenna farm at 17 degree magnetic bearing) ... The 2nd blue line down is my rough estimation of the effect of curvature of earth at that distance. While it doesn't look too promising(especially as 3 of the Dayton DTV stations are on upper UHF channels), OTOH It perhaps doesn't look quite as bad as what you have for Cincinnati(and the Dayton transmitting antennas are a little higher), but -- it's difficult to say if getting reception from Dayton from your location would be about the same, or a little easier, or a little harder.

I'd probably try it the same way with Dayton as you are for Cincinnati. If, given proper antenna aiming you aren't getting much signal at all from the Dayton stations(UHF analogs or digitals - all dayton digitals are on UHF) with your current antenna, probably not worth it to move to a "better" antenna. If things look better than that however, it might be worth it to move to antenna such as XG91 w/preamp/etc.

As for the PQ from Dayton stations, overall, IMO other than PBS it's a better situation than Cincinnati at the current time. Especially from WKEF-DT(ABC HD), and WHIO-DT(CBS HD). NBC (WDTN-DT/WLWT-DT) and WB(WBDT-DT/WSTR-DT) is a toss up, no difference in PQ from Fox HD(WRGT-DT/WXIX-DT). You also have DD 5.1 from CBS, NBC Dayton, whearas it's DD 2.0 currently from the Cincinnati CBS/NBC affiliates.

Last but not least, am I wasting my time b/c I can expect D* locals some time hopefully within the next 6 months?

Certianly, given your terrain issues, it certianly sounds like HD LiL from D* will be exactly what you need.

I don't know If you would be wasting your time however, especially if you can get the Dayton stations OTA, as you won't be getting those from D* -- They do sometimes offer different programming -- For instance, Sunday, Fox Dayton ran the Steelers Game(HD), couldn't get that from a Cincinnati station .....

Again though, if you can't improve the situation with your current antenna by moving it to a little different spot(might also not be a bad idea w/o use of preamp to try it in a spot so that the coax run is as short as you can make it), persoanlly I probably wouldn't mess with it too much, or spend too much $ on better antennas/etc which still might not be enough to "do the trick" if you're planning on getting the Cincy locals LiL from D* when available.

dusterscott

12-13-05, 01:11 PM

I have two separate antennas - one for Cincinnati and one for Dayton. 90% of the time I watch Dayton programming. For one thing WKEF (ABC) doesn't have the resolution issues that the Cincinnati channel has. Also, more of the Dayton channels are broadcast in DD5.1 too. There are terrain issues between Middletown and Dayton, but I was able to overcome them with a tripod and 10 foot pole. That got the antenna up high enough. 5 feet above the peak of my roof was too low. You'll be able to get D* locals next year sometime hopefully but will the picture be as good as you can get OTA? Will they use the extra bandwidth that comes with MPEG4 for better PQ or will they use it mainly for squeezing more channels into their lineup?

Nitewatchman

12-13-05, 02:04 PM

Another thing TL2000 might want to check out might be his reception of KET/PBS HD WCVN 54/WCVN-DT 24(54.x remapped) -- which is in N KY(Taylor Mill), about 217.5 degrees at about 9 miles from his location, and will likely require different antenna aiming from his locations than the other Cincy stations. Attached is the elevation profile, which still isn't great(especially as their antenna is about 400~600 ft lower than the other cincinnati stations), but doesn't look quite as bad as the other Cincinnati stations from his location --- being lower on the UHF dial(24) might help him out with the DT reception as well.

It's hard to say, but if he can pull in WCVN-DT, it might at least be a bit of an indication that just a little more height for his antenna might do wonders for him for the other Cincinnati, or Dayton stations, as worked for dusterscott for Dayton.

nees1212

12-13-05, 02:48 PM

If you want the networks, with Directv, you have to go OTA. I had my Sony with built in tuner since last Jan., and got all the cincy stations with a set of rabbit ears. When Directv brought out my HD stuff, they provided a wing style antenna mounted at almost ground level and it gets all the cincy stations.

Directv is at the beginning of an agressive campaign to launch more sats, and bring HD locals to all the local markets, but cincy is way down on the list. The good news on that is that the Directv branded DVR needed for that upgrade will have a good year and a half of smoke testing before we have to commit to it here. By that time my commitment will be over, and I can choose to go back to cable if it proves a better option. (right now we're talking Adelphia so it's not an option at all)

So is the DIRECTV HD-DVR receiver not really worth the money at this time?
Should I just go with the standard DVR?

nees1212

12-13-05, 03:09 PM

nees1212,

Welcome to AVS. If you didn't find it in your searches, you might want to check out this antenna/reception FAQ thread in hardware area, as well as some of the links provided to other antenna/reception info sites :

You might also want to check out this well written article concerning OTA, antennas/installation issues +OTA HD :

Thanks for the additional info.

So if I'm understanding things correctly, with the TV I have, I can get an OTA antenna and receive the local channels in HD without getting the HD package from DirecTV? The only appealing HD channel in the package is ESPN, but most of the good sporting events are on local channels anyways.

jim tressler

12-13-05, 03:57 PM

i got it back in september and it has been worth it.. so far the mpeg4 hd dvr is vaporware.. sure they they 2006 - but they also said early 2005 at first...

If you can get it for a good price (I paid $99 after rebate) then it is worth it because it will be good for at least another year or two.. and even after they switch to mpeg4, I am sure someone will hack it to work with just ota :)

So is the DIRECTV HD-DVR receiver not really worth the money at this time?
Should I just go with the standard DVR?

Nitewatchman

12-13-05, 04:12 PM

Thanks for the additional info.

So if I'm understanding things correctly, with the TV I have, I can get an OTA antenna and receive the local channels in HD without getting the HD package from DirecTV?

Yes you are understanding correctly. According to below link(requires acrobat reader), since the JVC 52G786 has an internal ATSC (OTA digital/HD receiver) receiver, you'll just need antenna to receive HD from the local affilates of ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, WB+PBS. No subscription fees, it's free to air. BTW, there are 3 stations which offer PBS HD in Cincinnati, , different programming schedules for the 3 different stations - 1 PBS HD station in Dayton. Hopefully, the Cincinnati UPN class A station(currently it's analog only) will go digital/HD sooner rather than later.

http://www.jvc.com/presentations/hdila/pdf/HD52n56G786.pdf

nees1212

12-13-05, 04:21 PM

i got it back in september and it has been worth it.. so far the mpeg4 hd dvr is vaporware.. sure they they 2006 - but they also said early 2005 at first...

If you can get it for a good price (I paid $99 after rebate) then it is worth it because it will be good for at least another year or two.. and even after they switch to mpeg4, I am sure someone will hack it to work with just ota :)

$99 :eek: . For the HD-DVR setup, DirecTV offerred it to me for $400, which was $200 regular price for being a good customer. Are you talking about the HD-DVR or standard DVR?

nees1212

12-13-05, 04:25 PM

Yes you are understanding correctly. According to below link(requires acrobat reader), since the JVC 52G786 has an internal ATSC (OTA digital/HD receiver) receiver, you'll just need antenna to receive HD from the local affilates of ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, WB+PBS. No subscription fees, it's free to air. BTW, there are 3 stations which offer PBS HD in Cincinnati, , different programming schedules for the 3 different stations - 1 PBS HD station in Dayton. Hopefully, the Cincinnati UPN class A station(currently it's analog only) will go digital/HD sooner rather than later.

Thanks for the quick response. I appreciate it. It looks like I'll just get a standard receiver (adding this TV to a new location and not replacing old), and then get an OTA antenna to mount on the roof. The DirecTV package just isn't quite worth it right now IMO when all I'd utilize is ESPN.

jim tressler

12-13-05, 04:29 PM

HD DVR - $299 "special price" - $100 credit - $100 mail in rebate.. I would call customer retention and wheel and deal.. thats what I did... got the hd dvr, free superfan for the sunday ticket, $20 off total chioce premier for 6 months , and a general $5 credit for 6 months.. - I have been a customer since 1997 when I graduated UC - never missed a payment and am very nice when I call retention.. give it a shot.. becuase others that have been there a lot less have gotten just as much

$99 :eek: . For the HD-DVR setup, DirecTV offerred it to me for $400, which was $200 regular price for being a good customer. Are you talking about the HD-DVR or standard DVR?

cokebear

12-13-05, 04:33 PM

Cokebear's new findings did not work for me either. While poking around in the channel list and the signal meter for my Toshiba I did notice something with the HD channels. Channel 107 is for WKRC and under channel 107 I did not see any sub-channels since they are remapped. The same goes for WLWT, WXIX, and KET (WXIX and KET are on the same channel, 85 I think) So, then I got thinking to check all of the channels that were listed as analog in my channel list that did not have an analog channel active on it and did not have any digital channels on it (my channel listing shows all of this). So, I wrote down all of the "inactive" analog channels and proceded to check them out. Here is what I found. I am guessing that my TV has an issue with channel remapping because many of the channels reverted to channel "0" but when I was going through everything I did find WCPO on channel 101-1 and CET on 103-1. Both times my TV reverted to channel "0" and after that I could not tune in the channels again because it was stuck on the last channel that remapped to "0" no matter which channel I tried. So, if someone else on TWC could try 101-1 and 103-1 I would appreciate it.

Sorry I haven't posted before now but it's a busy time of year.

1st of all I got an e-mail from TWC again saying that they were forewarding my findings to the "computer room" in hopes that they could tell me more. My e-mail also gave them the web address for AVS so they could be aware of some of the conversation here.

Now that I've tried 101-1 and 103-1. 101-1 just doesn't tune for me shows "weak signal or channel not available." 103-1 does tune to 103 and it's WCPO just as you advertised. Neither one of these defaults back to Channel 0 so I have no problem switching back and forth.

davs

12-13-05, 08:20 PM

I just got my Westinghouse LVM-37w1 and have had it hooked up via hdmi>dvi to a brand new 8300hd from TWC. Im not sure if this has been posted, and if it has, I wouldnt even know what keywords to look for. Anyways, on the local Networks (ABC, CBS, NBC, and FOX) if the broadcast is not in HD I get some weird jibberish black and white squares/lines moving in the top 3% or so of the screen (in the 4:3 portion). Ill take pictures if you guys dont know what Im talking about. This isnt 100% of the time, but most of the time if the broadcast on the HD channels is not in HD. I havent tried component to see if the problem is still there, as I can just tune down to the analog version of the channel to get rid of the problem. Should I call TW?

Also I thought Id ask, but Im guessing its not possible. Can I change the grey bars on 4:3 material on non-hd channels to black instead of grey. Ive also noticed that quite a few of the non hd channels are not perfectly centered (espn news, comedy central to name a couple), is this normal? I do want to take pictures, but I need batteries (maybe tomorrow I will)

Oh and one more thing. Lip sync issues. This isnt a constant issue, but it pops up fairly often on DiscHD and occasionally on the INHD/HDNET channels.

Any commentary on the above will be appreciated.

Davs

cokebear

12-13-05, 11:32 PM

Hi Davs,
There is a FAQ on the forum for the SA8300HD one for passport software which TWCinci uses and one for Sara software used elsewhere.

The one you need is
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=453804&highlight=sa8300hd+passport

Bamaman

12-14-05, 10:33 AM

Darn... just noticed the game is on ABC.

Trying to decide whether or not to have people over.

Are there any plans to fix this? It looks like crap at 65 inches IMHO.

dusterscott

12-14-05, 11:25 AM

Darn... just noticed the game is on ABC.

Trying to decide whether or not to have people over.

Are there any plans to fix this? It looks like crap at 65 inches IMHO.

They've promised a fix during the first quarter of 2006 so I wouldn't expect any changes by 1-4.

jim tressler

12-14-05, 12:37 PM

scott... are you having trouble with wkef?? My signal from them was fine last night.. but today.. I get nothing

jim

Nitewatchman

12-14-05, 01:12 PM

WKEF-DT is fine here at 1:12pm EST.

dusterscott

12-14-05, 03:14 PM

scott... are you having trouble with wkef?? My signal from them was fine last night.. but today.. I get nothing

jim

Jim:

I'll have to check when I get home from work.

jim tressler

12-14-05, 04:06 PM

crap.. my dayton antenna must be out of whack again... I only have it billy engineered for now :)

lol

TL2000

12-14-05, 08:31 PM

Thank you everyone for the information. As soon as the snow is gone from my roof I'll be able to get to the antenna and re-aim it. In case I do need it, what is the best pre-amp for me to buy?

Thanks

Nitewatchman

12-15-05, 12:34 AM

In case I do need it, what is the best pre-amp for me to buy?

Man, you guys sure know how to ask hard questions<g> ...

It's really difficult to answer what the "best" preamp would be for you ... In fact, it's really strange to even be talking about preamps for someone only 5~8 miles away from the transmitters ... as it would usually be a VERY bad idea from that distance because of overload/desense/intermod issues ..... And, for that reason, even though it certianly seems to be the case that due to terrain shielding the signals are so weak at your location, at least for UHF "Overload" shouldn't be a problem .... I still have a really hard time recommending a preamp from that close, out of concern that, even if the UHF stations are still weak after trying to find a better spot for the antenna, VHF signals may still potentailly be strong enough to cause "overload" problems .... OTOH, it Certianly won't hurt anything to try it anyway ...... just make sure you can return it if you need to ....

----------------------------------

First, in a "general" sense ... A mast mount preamp is usually the "best" choice for a preamp to use with antenna --- you put the preamp on the mast with the antenna, with a short feed from antenna to preamp -- This way, one important benefit to a "mast mount" preamp is that the preamp can recover all feedline losses all the way from the antenna to the receiver, which isn't the case for a distribution amp placed indoors. With mast mount preamps, a power inserter is used(which you plug into an A/C outlet somewhere indoors) which sends low voltage current to the preamp on mast via the coax.

For a more "specific" answer -- Let me do this 2 different ways :

#1) "What may be a good/best choice for a preamp for you to use --- "technically speaking" -- at least if you want to spend around $50 on it(and be able to find one) rather than a few $$$ or more ?

Option A.) I suppose You could try a preamp which does amplification on UHF, but just "passes through" VHF w/o amplification .... If I read this chart correctly(and I may not be, it may be saying it doesn't even pass through VHF frequencies* from the antenna), looks like Winegard AP-4700 may be one of these :

http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/Chart29.pdf

Here's the winegard preamp "main" page :

http://www.winegard.com/offair/amplifiers.htm

I'm not sure about CM7775 --- It's "UHF Only", but don't know if it passes VHF(w/o amplification* or not.

* - If they don't pass VHF frequencies, if you chose one of these amps you'd need to use a seperate VHF antenna for WCPO-DT, along with a seperate VHF feedline for the antenna, combining VHF/UHF antennas with a VHF/UHF joiner such as CM#0549 AFTER the power inserter for preamp(such as somewhere in your attic).

Option B: You could try a "medium" gain/low noise preamp that does both VHF/UHF amplification with a single VHF/UHF input , such as CM7778 or Blonder-Tongue Galaxy Series Suburban III (I think Stark has these - this one has 300 ohm input+you'll need a short piece of twinlead for it) ... Make sure to turn FM trap "on" ...

-------

The main thing I'd probably try to look for for your location is not necessarily the "highest gain" preamps available(such as CM7777, AP4800/etc), but instead look for a preamp that is low noise, and as resistant to "overload"(has a high maximum input level) as possible. For instance -- look at the "max total input"(in microvolts) spec in the winegard preamp chart. 29db "gain" on UHF for AP-4800 may sound good ... but notice the max. input is rated at 30KuV whearas the AP-4700 max input is 93KuV, and 19db gain, the latter which would be a better choice than the former if "overload" isssues may be a concern ...

------------------------------------------

2. What may be the "best preamp option" for you to try - "in general?

Again, a little hard to say, but what I'd probably do in your situation is go to lowe's, and pick up a CM3039(13db gain, 3.5db NF) and try it first. It has a 300ohm input , so if it isn't included in the package you'll need a short piece of 300 ohm twinlead that needs to go between antenna+mast mount preamp.

While I don't have the full specs on it available, I assume CM3039 should accept a fairly high signal input level, and would be a good "all around choice" for a medium-gain, low noise preamp. I'd also think it may be a good choice, as it is something lowe's carries, and can easily(and quickly) be returned if it doesn't work out so well for you -- and, I'd guess if CM3039 doesn't improve things, it's doubtful if any of the others listed above will either. That's just a guess and more just an opinion than anything else, however.

Dimitriz

12-16-05, 04:03 PM

I know some of you know this off the top of your heads. :)

My Association has rule that dishes 18" or smaller can be installed. I am thinking of getting an 35" FTA dish, so I pulled up that FCC regulation:
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html
My understanding is that I can place this dish since it's less then 1m in diameter.

The dish will be in the back of the house and wont be seen by anyone either way.

Also, they are talking about roofline for the mast, what the heck is a roofline? Where gutters are?

Thanks

jim tressler

12-16-05, 06:19 PM

Dimitriz - you are correct, they can not stop you from placing upto a 1m dish. They can regulate its location.. ie.. not on the front of the house as my subidivision does - unless its the only place you can get a signal. The roofline is the peak of the roof or the top where the two sections of roof form a peak - sometimes you see a vent that runs the length of it - its called a ridge vent.. either way they can not deny your ota antenna - nor can they regulate it.

jim

rleist

12-17-05, 10:19 PM

No HD for Sound of Music tonight on 9.1. Called the news room and asked them to let the control room know.

Rob

dusterscott

12-18-05, 09:01 AM

I may be wrong on this one but it might have been broadcast in its original aspect ratio of 4:3. I didn't watch it so I can't say if it was in HD or not, but it doesn't have to be 16:9 to be HD.

DrDon

12-18-05, 11:23 AM

Scott..

Its original aspect ratio was widescreen and ABC did feed the movie, as it always does, in HD. BUT..(and I'm not in Cincinnati, so I don't know your specifics) primetime for Saturday nights starts at 8. If the movie started at 8pm on WCPO, then it should have been in HD. If it started at 7, then WCPO carried the 7ET "pre-feed" which was NOT in HD. ABC only has two net-to-affiliate HD pathways, one for East and one for West. Due to the length of the movie, they couldn't stagger-start two feeds. Our ABC affiliate went with the 7pm feed (sd) while WABC in New York went with the 8pm feed (HD). This isn't an issue when they run the movie on Sunday nights since Sunday's prime time DOES begin at 7.

Nitewatchman

12-18-05, 11:32 AM

WCPO-DT started "Sound of Music" at 8pm last night. Was watching Football, so only checked it a few times but never saw them go to HD. WKEF-DT, however started it at 7pm, so didn't have HD for it either.

According to checkHD, the Movie that comes on tonight at 7 or 7:30pm on ABC is supposed to be HD as well, so I guess we'll see what happens tonight.

dusterscott

12-18-05, 11:36 AM

DrDon

12-18-05, 11:44 AM

WCPO-DT started "Sound of Music" at 8pm last night. Was watching Football, so only checked it a few times but never saw them go to HD. In that case, you're probably dealing with MCOs on vacation. I seem to remember one year where they all went around the same time and NOTHING got switched anywhere but WLWT.

Or maybe ..just maybe ..they pulled their HD sat receiver out of the rack to fix the jaggiees issue. BLAW- HA HA HA HA HA. I kill me, sometimes :D

Nitewatchman

12-18-05, 12:39 PM

LOL, Doc. Was thinking along those lines here as well.

Update[edited+combined 2 posts into 1] :

Per info posted in "Sound of Music" thread in programming area, looks like the 7pm Feed last night was HD, 8pm was not ...

Sooo ... As it turns out -- it was WKEF-DT that dropped the ball last night, not WCPO-DT ... Which, BTW has happened again tonight -- WCPO-DT has the HD feed up for the Movie starting at 7pm, WKEF-DT is SD ... WCPO-DT of course looks like crap with the "jaggies", anyway so even if I wanted to watch this thing I wouldn't be able to stand it, or would have to watch the analog(or call and pester WKEF) ....

-------------------------------------

Update #2 :

Off topic for this post -- but just had to comment : Wow does HD PQ for "Wizard Of OZ" look great tonight from WBDT-DT+WSTR-DT .... and yes, this one is 4x3 OAR ....

nightowl2k2

12-18-05, 09:25 PM

digital only

12-18-05, 09:54 PM

Well CET finally showed up on TWC for me in HD. The channels must have come up during a rescan of the channels. I am not sure if TWC changed anything or not. I still do not have WCPO but that is not too much of a worry for me since the resolution is messed up.

On a side note, I am going to be moving up to the Maineville area in January. Does anyone have any experience with OTA reception up there? I am looking to put antenna(s) in my attic or outside if needed to receive Cincinnati and Dayton channels. My plan was to combine the signals together on to 1 coax. Is this the reccomended way to go or will I have issues with multipath? I was thinking about using an antenna like this one (http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB4_HDTV_antenna.html) for Dayton reception. I am not sure what I am going to go with yet for Cincinnati since I may need VHF for WCPO.

I don't think that others recommend it but I have 1 vhf/uhf antenna for cincy (a Rat shack 180 the largest one they have and I only use the 7-69 half of it) and a uhf only thats about 4 feet long (a discontinued rat shack product ) I run 2 separate rg6 quad shielded runs (one 25 ft and one 50 ft) to the living room then use a 2 way spliter to combine them and run it into my reciever box. I get everything digital out of Cincy / Dayton / trenton. BTW , I'm in liberty twp Butler county and the antenna's are in the attic. Your uhf is a bit more astecially pleasing so you could probably do a roof mount without it being all that noticable.

Another antenna that I'm using for uhf analog with pretty good results is the "silver sensor" that I have on the roof. I know its an indoor antenna but I thought i'd try it and see how id does up there. You can hardly see it.

jim tressler

12-18-05, 10:25 PM

nightowl.. where in maineville? I am in hamilton twp near the sr 48 and sr22/3 intersection.. dimitriz is right down the road off of 48.. the db4 should work fine.. but most likley it will need to be outside.. I tried the ratshack 75u (uhf only) in the attic with no luck.. Combining the signals will not work - I tried and while most channels were ok, quite a few did not work. I now use an a/b switch.. but honestly.. I leave it on dayton all the time... their hd is much better..

jim

Well CET finally showed up on TWC for me in HD. The channels must have come up during a rescan of the channels. I am not sure if TWC changed anything or not. I still do not have WCPO but that is not too much of a worry for me since the resolution is messed up.

On a side note, I am going to be moving up to the Maineville area in January. Does anyone have any experience with OTA reception up there? I am looking to put antenna(s) in my attic or outside if needed to receive Cincinnati and Dayton channels. My plan was to combine the signals together on to 1 coax. Is this the reccomended way to go or will I have issues with multipath? I was thinking about using an antenna like this one (http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB4_HDTV_antenna.html) for Dayton reception. I am not sure what I am going to go with yet for Cincinnati since I may need VHF for WCPO.

cokebear

12-18-05, 11:52 PM

Well CET finally showed up on TWC for me in HD. The channels must have come up during a rescan of the channels. I am not sure if TWC changed anything or not.

Hey thats great, did you notice where they are in the lineup?

Dimitriz

12-19-05, 08:52 AM

JunkyardDogg

12-19-05, 09:06 PM

Called WCPO to have them turn on DD 5.1. I won't be watching WCPO, but I haven't heard 5.1 from them yet.

microbob

12-19-05, 10:17 PM

They are now in DD 5.1 as of 10:00 PM..Flipped the switch around 9:30 PM

ItzMe

12-20-05, 09:01 AM

A bit off topics here, but have any existing Directv customers bundled their service with Cincy Bell? I was talking to the CincyBell rep and he said that offer (which is up to $6 off per month) is only available to new DTV customers. The CinciBell bundle site is unclear, and seems to indicate the offer is for anyone. Just curious.

jim tressler

12-20-05, 09:19 AM

i called and got the same spiel 6 or so months ago when they started the promotion

ItzMe

12-20-05, 09:28 AM

Yeah, I think CincyBell is just serving as a re-seller, where they only make money when they get a new DTV customer. But it seems like we should be able to push the point that the web site seems to indicate the monthly discount for new or existing. Here's the words (which isnt even english):

"Get ZoomTown High Speed Internet Access or FUSE Dialup Internet Access FREE* for your first 3 months when you sign-up for DIRECTV service. new internet subscribers only
Get up to a $6 Cincinnati Bell bill on your DIRECTV bill - New and Existing Internet Customers"

rickw6605

12-21-05, 08:35 AM

A friend who was an existing DTV customer when Bell started it's promotion was told the same thing - "new customers only". She then called Direct TV explained that she was a telephone customer of CinBell and DTV gave her a $5 break on her bill. That was five or six months ago.

ItzMe

12-21-05, 11:14 AM

Rick, thats very interesting. I wonder if that $5 discount was a function of the established coop program with Bell, or if DTV was just offering a feel-good incentive to a good customer. They do that sort of thing as a function of good will marketing and customer appreciation alot. Do you know if that $5 discount is to expire? They've given me many such "rewards" in the past (all of which eventually expire), so they'll be less likely to keep giving me breaks like that. I might have to give that a try though.

digital only

12-21-05, 05:34 PM

ABC and CBS to do Multicast

I just saw a news article today that ABC is starting a weather service much like Weather plus that they are planning on pushing out to the affiliates. Also CBS has plans for a Weather/News/Entertainment multicast channel by the end of 2006.

Guess there goes the full bandwidth HDTV

jimp2244

12-22-05, 10:48 AM

I apologize if this has been addressed before. Currently I use an ATI HDTV Wonder card to receive HD on my computer and display on my large LCD monitor. While the card is pretty decent, ATI's software is horrible. But this card only supports OTA HD reception (ATSC). I was wondering if anyone out there knows if Time Warner puts the HD signals out over cable that you could receive with a QAM tuner. I am considering purchasing the DVICO Fusion card which can tune QAM, but I don't want to buy it unless I know that it will work with Time Warner Cable. I know you can get the HD digital box from TW, but I want to be able to capture, cut, and convert the HD video, which a set top box won't do.

So, does TW in Cincinnati provide the HD signals via unencrypted QAM that I could receive with this card? Thanks for your help!

jim tressler

12-22-05, 10:51 AM

if you roll back a few pages there is some discussion on twc and unencrypted qam - the fusion is a good card but the software is horrible!!

Check out the dvico fusion 5 thread over in the htpc area

jim

0ctane

12-22-05, 02:28 PM

So, does TW in Cincinnati provide the HD signals via unencrypted QAM that I could receive with this card? Thanks for your help!
For local stations (NBC, ABC, CBS, CET, KET) yes. I use a Fusion3 Gold-T and receive QAM through TW. The software is pretty buggy still, but slowly getting better (I hope). As Jim mentioned, there are a number of threads devoted to DVIco Fusion.

jimp2244

12-22-05, 03:46 PM

Thanks guys. I read the last 15 or so pages of this thread (whew! what a read). So it sounds like if I grab a fusion card I can watch the broadcast HD channels with QAM tuning. We have TWC Digital but don't subscribe to the HD tier. I assume the local channels still come through no matter what level of service you have with TW (correct me if I'm wrong).

As for the Fusion having buggy software, I dont' see how it could be any worse than ATI's. And ATI's support is even worse, telling me to go back to a previous version of their sofware to fix one problem, and then telling me to upgrade to the latest to fix another problem, and then telling me to re-install Windows because it's an OS problem! I mean the ATI card is solid but the software and support are so unbelievably horrible that I don't know if I can ever buy something from ATI again. The card has so much promise (HD DVR built in) but the software just doesnt' work right.

Anyway, I'll look into those Fusion threads and will probably get one unless someone has a better suggestion for an HD tuner card that does QAM.

BTW it DOES look great throwing the HD video on my Dell 2001FP 20.1" flat panel (1600x1200 resolution), and the LCD projector I have is even better. Seeing as I don't have a real HDTV set, I'm probably one of the oddest HD watchers around here :-) Although, a $170 tuner card makes for a pretty cheap way to enter the HD world...

jim tressler

12-22-05, 03:49 PM

How does the dell look as a pc monitor.. I am about to take the plunge into lcd for my pc

BTW it DOES look great throwing the HD video on my Dell 2001FP 20.1" flat panel (1600x1200 resolution), and the LCD projector I have is even better. Seeing as I don't have a real HDTV set, I'm probably one of the oddest HD watchers around here :-) Although, a $170 tuner card makes for a pretty cheap way to enter the HD world...

0ctane

12-22-05, 05:41 PM

jimp2244

12-22-05, 07:40 PM

Jim,

The Dell 2001FP 20.1" LCD display is awesome. Best computer investment I've ever made, and I've made quite a few. The display is gorgeous, and flawless. It's got DVI, RGB/VGA, Composite, and S-Video inputs, and you can switch between them or do picture-in-picture. It also has a USB 2.0 hub built in. All of this is part of the monitor itself.

The 2001FP is not widescreen. It's a 4:3 aspect ratio. I know dell has some widescreen monitors too. Be really careful though, because Dell has come out with a lot of new LCD screens that are as large or larger but they are really cheaper units (lower resolution and less features). If you do decide to get one, make sure you get one of the high end ones. I have a 19" Dell flat panel at work and it doesn't even compare to the 2001FP I have at home even though it's only 1.1" smaller. So do your research and check it out, but the high end ones are definately a great buy. Also, have patience and wait for a deal. I got the 2001FP about a year and a half ago when it was still well over $1,000. I got a great deal on it for $650 or so by waiting and finding some stackable discount codes. Now the 2001FP I believe can be had for $500 or maybe even less.

Anyway, thanks guys for the info. I think I definately want to get a card with QAM tuning. OTA is great, and I'll surely still use it, but there are times when getting a signal lock is tough and I'd love a flawless cable signal.

rleist

12-23-05, 11:14 AM

We have TWC Digital but don't subscribe to the HD tier. I assume the local channels still come through no matter what level of service you have with TW (correct me if I'm wrong).

Just an FYI, since you already subscribe to the digital tier you can ask TW to swap out your current box for the HD one. Shouldn't cost any extra per month. You then would then get the locals HD on the box. You don't have to subscibe to the HD tier to get the locals.

Rob

Nitewatchman

12-23-05, 11:48 AM

FYI for insight cable folks ---- according to this :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6775964&&#post6775964

Sinclair has reached a deal with insight for carriage of WSTR-DT (WB HD).

Don't suppose they'll be carrying WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT Dayton in N KY, but they reached a deal with insight(presumably for any insight systems in Dayton area) for those as well.

dusterscott

12-23-05, 12:17 PM

FYI. I decided to give TWC a try so I could get some extra HD channels while I'm on vacation during the Christmas Holidays. They gave me Digipic 1000 channels for $37.90, HDTV Tier (extra HD channels) for $6.95, and the HDDVR for $9.95. There is no commitment but they've locked this rate in ($54.80) for 18 months because I am a Roadrunner subscriber. I must say, my OTA picture is a much better picture than TWC's for locals. Even the installer couldn't believe the difference.

Nitewatchman

12-23-05, 12:23 PM

OTA is great, and I'll surely still use it, but there are times when getting a signal lock is tough

What sort of antenna setup are you using? Any terrain issues?

FWIW, I've been watching OTA HD/DTV for over 4 years, and it's been pretty much "flawless" from 15 Dayton/Cincinnati stations, well, except when the stations have problems - which has generally been rare even though we're in the early years of DTV broadcasting.

and I'd love a flawless cable signal.

Cable has it's problems as well - ingress issues(when OTA signals "leak" into leaky/poorly maintatined/etc cable lines and cause interference) for example, and when the cable goes out in your neighborhood, you'll be able to use OTA.

BTW, although fiber is often used as well, many cable systems in fact use OTA receive antennas at the head end to receive the signals from the stations before distributing it on their systems.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time -- certianly both cable+OTA(and sat for that matter) are viable delivery methods ... And yes, there are cases when various reception issues which can be a problem with OTA(terrain issues/multipath, receiver selectivity/sensititivity - i.e. "front end" issues/etc) ...

But -- the reason I'm responding to your comment is because, in most cases - I'm not sure many folks are aware that in many cases and especially when a properly installed and orientated outdoor directional antenna is used, OTA DTV/HD reception is extremely reliable, and quite "flawless" actually.

Is it as simple as plugging in a cable? No, not usually - although it often(but not allways) isn't much more complicated than that, and there are no monthy subscription bills - And, around here anyway, with the "right" antenna setup chances are good you'll be able to pick up stations your local cableco doesn't carry. [update] : Also, with more and more sets coming with internal ATSC(OTA digital) receivers due to FCC tuner mandate - it seems a no brainer to me for folks, even cable subscribers to hook up an antenna to it and use it(say, for the Dayton stations). Of course, It might help if all sets(or PC-tuner cards like the one you are looking at) that are digital cable ready(all of which should have ATSC OTA tuners in them as well) would have 2 RF inputs, one for cable+1 for OTA antenna. My Sony KD34XBR960 is like that, but I'm not so sure that is, or will be a common thing -- It certianly unfortunately never was common for analog OTA+analog "cable ready" sets.

jimp2244

12-23-05, 01:32 PM

I currently have the computer in the basement that has the HDTV wonder card, then a very well shielded coax line that goes up to a bedroom on the 2nd floor. Normally I just have the small (about 1 foot long and 6 inches wide) directional antenna that came with the HDTV wonder card hooked up. Most times this is enough for clear reception on 5, 12, and 19. I'm on the North East side of Cincinnati (just outside 275 loop). Sometimes though I have problems pulling in a reliable signal (drop outs and audio issues occur). I can get 9 and 48 with some effort also. The small directional is pointed toward the transmitter towers (SW) but sits next to a SE facing window.

I used to be in Dayton, and I had bought a huge antenna to put in the attic. It's the 160" from Radio Shack. I'm restricted from posting the URL, but just use radioshack's web site and add:

/product/index.jsp?productId=2103087&cp=&pg=1&y=7&x=4&kw=antenna+vhf+uhf&s=D-StorePrice-RSK&parentPage=search

It's supposed to have a 190mile VHF range, 100mile UHF/FM range. I was able to pick up all the Cincinnati digital stations except for WCPO-DT (10) by placing it in the attic and facing it toward the south facing window.

However, I don't currently have a place to put this huge antenna and mounting it outside is not an option.

When I have reception issues sometimes I use the front half of it (all of the UHF elements are on the front half) and set it up in the bedroom (it barely fits!).

But anyway, my main hope with cable is that I won't have to mess with all the fuss and pain of pointing the antenna and making adjustments and all of that. Eventually I hope to be in a house where I can mount outside with an electronic rotator. I'd love to pull in Columbus, Indy, Lexington, and Louisville, especially for NFL Sundays when you can get extra games this way.

One question about the cable box swap... That sounds cool that you can do that for free. However, since I'm using a computer to tune HD, would that provide me with any benefit to have the HD cable box? I suppose if it can hook straight into the projector that would be pretty cool.

As far as the OTA picture being better, how is that possible? Doesn't TW just pass the signal through? I mean if that's the case, then the picture should look exactly the same, unless they are re-encoding the mpeg2 stream. Unless you mean you are getting drop outs, in which case it would be weak signal instaed of picture quality.

dusterscott

12-23-05, 02:03 PM

As far as the OTA picture being better, how is that possible? Doesn't TW just pass the signal through? I mean if that's the case, then the picture should look exactly the same, unless they are re-encoding the mpeg2 stream. Unless you mean you are getting drop outs, in which case it would be weak signal instaed of picture quality.

I'm not getting any dropouts through TWC, just a noticeable decrease in clarity. Maybe it's due to their HD DVR. I have no idea what the reason for the poorer PQ would be.

Nitewatchman

12-23-05, 02:06 PM

But anyway, my main hope with cable is that I won't have to mess with all the fuss and pain of pointing the antenna and making adjustments and all of that.

And that's fine -- QAM tuner should be an excellent option for you to receive the Cincinnati area digital/HD stations TW is carrying, which should be available on their lowest cost tier of service(you don't need digital cable tiers, for instance). OF the Cincinnati digital/HD stations that are available OTA, Do keep in mind however that unless something has changed very recently, TW Cincy don't carry WSTR-DT(WB HD), yet. I'm not sure if they are carrying WPTO-DT(PBS HD/thinkTV), either In Cincinnati area, even though it currently transmits from Cincinnati, or TBN/WKOI-DT(Transmits from near oxford) or any of its 5 SD multicast service If you're interested in that.

Just want to point out that generally speaking, one doesn't need to constantly fuss and invoke "pain" about OTA -- Usually(but not allways) how it works is, you stick the antenna outside(or possibly in an attic If you can get reception that way), aim it at the towers and go, chances are good it will provide good reception for at least a couple of decades or so. Some folks might find that hard to believe as for example I think folks who don't have problems aren't as likely to come here and post about how good their OTA reception is, and so what ends up happening is you just mostly see the OTA reception problems of the folks that do have problems.

Also, another thing to keep in mind -- especially from indoors, is that WHERE you put the antenna(I don't mean aiming it) can make a big difference. Just a little bit left, or right, or up/down/etc. can make a big difference as given the relatively short wavelengths involved with VHF/UHF there are often "hot spots" and "cold spots". Not only for signal strength, but also for multipath, and/or if there are any interference issues occuring from nearby household appliances, PC/Network gear or A/C wiring/etc(those sorts of interference issues are usually more of a problem on VHF TV bands, and especially so for VHF lo - ch. 2-6) ...

Finding a "Hot spot" to place the antenna for good reception of local stations can sometimes be an issue outdoors as well, but it's usually more of an issue indoors. Near a window facing the towers is often a good spot, but not allways(especially with some types of insulated glass which can be multipath issues). For this reasons, in a relatively strong signal area such as should be the case for your location(unless there are significant terrain issues involved) - a small, but effective antenna design with some degree of directivity(On UHF, such as "silver sensor" or RS DBT) placed in a "hot spot" can be more effective than a large antenna that is cumbersome to move around, as chances are you probably don't need an antenna with a lot of gain. DO also keep in mind that everything nearby the antenna(including you when you are adjusting it) becomes somewhat "connected" to the antenna and can effect reception.

[update] : What I would probably do in your situation, If I couldn't do the following with a digital tuner is : take a small TV with NTSC(analog) tuner with you and hook it up to antenna where you can see the TV while adjusting/placing antenna, and adjust antenna/antenna placement to minimalize snow/ghosting/interference to the analog stations -- especailly perhaps analog 9,19,25,38,48,54 - getting 64 or 36 good as well might be difficult, especially from indoors with their towers several miles North+more WSW from you than SW as is the case with the others. If using a UHF antenna such as silver sensor(and it sounds like the one you are using is UHF only as well), you may also need to use a VHF/UHF combiner+a set of VHF "rabbit ears" for WCPO-DT.

Except WPTO 14 which transmits from Oxford and its digital counterpart, WPTO-DT 28 which transmits from WXIX/Fox19 tower in Cincinnati -- those stations transmit from the same towers as their digital stations, but on different channels/frequencies -- WLWT-DT transmits on UHF 35 for instance(remaps to 5.x), while analog WLWT transmits on VHF 5 - Just keep in mind that multipath can be quite frequency dependant, and just because there may not be much ghosting(which is multipath, but you see it directly on screen with analog) on WCET 48 analog, doesn't mean the multipath situation isn't worse with WCET-DT 34 (digital). Nevertheless, I would think If you can minimalize ghosts+snow as much as possible from the analogs on 9,19,25,38,48,54 by finding a "sweet spot" for your antenna/aiming, chances are very good you're digital reception will improve as well. You might want to especially concentrate on 9,19,25,38 as all the Cincinnati digitals transmit between channel 10 and Channel 35.
[end update]

The small directional is pointed toward the transmitter towers (SW) but sits next to a SE facing window.

If you can, perhaps try a window that faces more to SW(S or W for instance). For such a small antenna with little or no gain -- although I expect multipath, or interference issues may be your main problem(s) --- Given it sounds like you might also have a fairly long coax run to the antenna its also possible a preamp of some sort *might* help you out. Certianly, outdoors is better however, and I guess in some cases for apartment dwellers whom don't have any suitable outdoor location for mounting an antenna(such as a patio or balcony facing the towers), and for a building which doesn't have a MATV system(antenna on the roof for local stations for use of the residents - some apartments have these, all should have them IMO), and they won't install one, I suppose for OTA you'll have to make do with whatever you can get from indoors.

[update]: As for outdoor not being an option for you - You didn't say why that is, but FYI just keep in mind the law says in nearly all cases, you can't be prevented/restricted from installing an outdoor OTA antenna on property you own or control -- That usually covers rooftops and areas around condos for leased/rented property, as well as patios or balconies for apartment dwellers but not any "common" areas that aren't for the exclusive use of tenant. They also can place some restrictions on where you can place it(for instance, putting antenna near utility lines is obviously not a good idea for safety reasons) For more info see here :

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

[end update]

Anyhow, FWIW I use an outdoor antenna setup but have tried it and can get excellent reception of everything out of Dayton(12~14 miles) with this $3 antenna from RS(at link below) placed near a east facing window, and all but WSTR-DT/WCVN-DT out of Cincinnati(32 Miles) with it placed near a South facing 2nd window+combined with a VHF/UHF joiner to a pair of rabbit ears for WCPO-DT(VHF). I'm down in a valley, BTW, and there are some losses due to terrain. I did put a preamp in line as well when I was testing this, as it was a approx. 80ft coax run to the TV. Without the preamp, it wasn't quite enough for all but the strongest signals(such asWKRC-DT/WLWT-DT/WDTN-DT).

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062017&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032204

It's supposed to have a 190mile VHF range, 100mile UHF/FM range.

They really shouldn't be putting mileage figures on antennas, as they are really quite meaningless. The main limiting factor concerning distance+possibility of reliable+continous VHF/UHF reception is curvature of Earth and height of transmitting+receive antennas. Given the transmitting antenna heights of stations in our area, unless perhaps you're in an exceptionally high spot or use a very tall tower, the maximum distance you'll be able to constantly receive reliable reception from most stations in our area is about 55~65 miles, no matter what the mileage rating for your antenna is. One exception in our area is WAVE 3(analog) Louisville, KY which has an exceptionally tall tower for this area - I get it here reliably but weak from 95 Miles.

What they should be advertising on antenna are gain and directivity. Generally speaking, for antennas designed for reception on a given range of frequencies(VHF, UHF or VHF/UHF - VHF antennas will be larger as the wavelengths are longer) the larger the antenna, the more gain it has+the more directivity it has. What would likely be ideal for your location would be a small~medium size VHF/UHF combo on the roof, with rotor, or a seperate UHF antenna on seperate feedline for Dayton(all dayton digitals are UHF) if you want Both Dayton and Cincinnati with a A/B switch to chose which antenna to use.

I'd love to pull in Columbus, Indy, Lexington, and Louisville, especially for NFL Sundays when you can get extra games this way.

While it is true that it is the case that at times, certian atmospheric conditions can sometimes allow reception of VHF/UHF signals from 100's and sometimes even 1000's of miles away ----- I'm afraid for the most part, on any regular and 100% consistant and "watchable" basis you are likely going to only be able to receive the Dayton+Cincinnati/N KY area stations -- and perhaps to some extent analogs WAVE 3 Lou, WCMH 4/WSYX 6 Columbus. WSYX-DT 13(ABC HD), perhaps WWHO-DT 46(Columbus UPN+WB HD) analog 53, and maybe(but less likely) WBNS-DT 21(CBS HD) Columbus might be long shot possibilities as well. Other Columbus stations will be probably pretty much impossible as they are, unforutnetly co-channel with Cincinnati stations : WTTE 28/WPTO-DT 28, WOSU 34/WCET-DT 34, WBQC-CA 38/WOSU-DT 38, WCMH-DT 14/WPTO 14, WBNS 10/WCPO-DT 10, WTTE-DT 36/W61DE 36 -- Note that W61DE Cincinnati(analog TBN LP translator) recently moved from 61 to 36.

As far as the OTA picture being better, how is that possible? Doesn't TW just pass the signal through? I mean if that's the case, then the picture should look exactly the same, unless they are re-encoding the mpeg2 stream.

As you say -- I believe it's the case TW just passes through the same bitstream the station sends ... So, the datastream should be the same, and theoretically the PQ CAN be exactly the same, BUT it won't necessarily be the same as the PQ can vary depending upon the equipment* used at the user end to decode the datastream+display the video, or scale to 1080i/720p/etc/etc. With a PC tuner card such as you are getting, I'd think you shouldn't be able to tell the difference with it between PQ via OTA or TW -- but, let us know what happens.

* - STB from the cableco, user's display/display settings/etc ... and, for instance any relevant settings that can be involed -- sometimes display settings which are "hidden" from the user but sometimes accessable from service menu, and often relevant+specific to certian scan rates/inputs/etc.

Nitewatchman

12-24-05, 01:33 AM

I'm not getting any dropouts through TWC, just a noticeable decrease in clarity. Maybe it's due to their HD DVR.

Seems quite possible. For instance, according to info in post at links farther below, maximum resolvable horizontal resolution was tested by a poster for a few STB's in use by cableco's by using 1080i+HDNet Test pattern in a "unique way" and in his case with the display he is using, he found the maximum horizontal resolution for different cable HD STB's to be :

SA8300 - ~1290 Lines Max Horizontal resolution.
SA8000 - ~890 Lines Max Horizontal resolution.
RCN Cable 6208 DVR - 1335 Max Horiz. resolution.

Given that he experienced different results from different STB's on the same display -- even though I'd think the max resolvable resolution from his display+ specific display settings/etc are also important issues involved : nevertheless -- obviously it seems to suggest STB's are not necessarily all created "equal" when it comes to maximum resolvable detail/resolution ... Heck, in this case at least(especially SA8000), it perhaps even makes HD-lite from say, D* at 1280x1080i for a 1920x1080i source perhaps seem not seem so bad(although I personally don't like "HD-lite" in any form either) ... hmm .. now where was it that issue came up recently ;)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5175424#post5175424
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5177644&&#post5177644
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6747741#post6747741

--------------------------------------------

PS - sorry for the delay in the response -- I had seen one of the posts linked above a few days ago and had to dig URL for it and the others back up.

jimp2244

12-24-05, 04:58 PM

I'll let you know the results if I get the fusion card. Back a couple of pages some people were discussing whether or not Time Warner was sending all of the lower channels (typically under 100 which includes the locals) digitally to the digital set top boxes. I'm not sure if that was ever confirmed either way, but I can confirm that they have begun doing that in the last month or so. It's very easy to tell. If you have a cable-ready set hooked directly into the cable line, and then another set which uses a digital set top box, you can see there's a several second delay to the one with the set top box, which is caused by the mpeg (mpeg 2 presumed) encoding. If you look closely on a good display, you can also see mpeg artifacting, although the digital picture is pretty flawless.

digital only

12-25-05, 06:15 PM

I thought that delay was done at the broadcaster. all the local stations digital broadcasts seem to be about 6 seconds behind the analog broadcasts.

I'll let you know the results if I get the fusion card. Back a couple of pages some people were discussing whether or not Time Warner was sending all of the lower channels (typically under 100 which includes the locals) digitally to the digital set top boxes. I'm not sure if that was ever confirmed either way, but I can confirm that they have begun doing that in the last month or so. It's very easy to tell. If you have a cable-ready set hooked directly into the cable line, and then another set which uses a digital set top box, you can see there's a several second delay to the one with the set top box, which is caused by the mpeg (mpeg 2 presumed) encoding. If you look closely on a good display, you can also see mpeg artifacting, although the digital picture is pretty flawless.

jimp2244

12-25-05, 11:46 PM

Nitewatchman

12-26-05, 11:24 AM

I thought that delay was done at the broadcaster. all the local stations digital broadcasts seem to be about 6 seconds behind the analog broadcasts.

The extra delay you're talking about I believe is mostly caused by MPEG2 encoding and decoding process -- At the station end(encoder) and your end(decoder).

jimp2244 is talking about much the same thing, but with the cableco using the SD signal it's getting from the analog broadcast stations and converting it to digital, probably with an MPEG2 encoder at the cableco - much as DBS companies convert the signals they are getting from analog broadcast stations to digitial for LiL( locals via the dish.) Although --- at least in some cases, I suppose it is possible when a fiber feed from the station is used that some of those SD signals could remain mostly digital - at least much of the time ... For instance, If I recall correctly WLWT has been "all digital" for their analog station for quite some time(except for the "RF" portion of the signal chain for the analog station) ...

digital is great if it is done "right", and I have no doubt SD digital from cable is better than analog cable, at least in most cases .... but, because of the compression artifacts that are likely present+depending upon how much bandwidth they are using for SD digital locals -- Although I haven't seen it -- but, for instance if it looks anything like SD digital on E* or D* (or say, "The Tube" from WXIX-DT or WDTN-DT 2.2) : I doubt either SD verison(analog or digital) from the cableco looks quite as good as the analog signal received OTA CAN(emphasize can) given "pristine" analog reception, free of ghosts, snow and interference -- which, in many cases is probably generally more difficult to achieve than good, dropout free digital OTA reception ... But, that's just me, as I have a extreme dislike for MPEG compression artifacts ... Certianly, even SD digital can be better than the best analog OTA or the old analog NTSC signals off the birds -- but, IMO, if too high compression ratio is used, during bandwitdth demanding portions of content --- Even HD can look "worse" than a "pristine" analog OTA signal ....

rleist

12-26-05, 12:51 PM

Back a couple of pages some people were discussing whether or not Time Warner was sending all of the lower channels (typically under 100 which includes the locals) digitally to the digital set top boxes. I'm not sure if that was ever confirmed either way, but I can confirm that they have begun doing that in the last month or so. It's very easy to tell. If you have a cable-ready set hooked directly into the cable line, and then another set which uses a digital set top box, you can see there's a several second delay to the one with the set top box, which is caused by the mpeg (mpeg 2 presumed) encoding.

I would suggest that maybe the set top box is converting the analog channels to digital, especially if it's a DVR because it does so for recording. I can't see why TW would simulcast channels in both analog and digital except to feed the misconception that digital provides better PQ than analog. Back when I still had TW with the digital tier we had a solid signal and I can say with out a doubt the most analog stations (not all though) had better PQ than the digital ones.

Rob

Nitewatchman

12-26-05, 01:11 PM

I can't see why TW would simulcast channels in both analog and digital

Maybe because #1). The analog broadcast stations will be shutting down in a few years as well, #2). probably the only analog "sources" they are using currenty would be the analog broadcast stations(the feeds from the cablenets -- CNN/TNT/etc are already "digital"), and probably most importantly #3). it will eventually free up quite a bit of bandwidth for them so perhaps this is just part of them working on transistioning everything on their system to digital. At some point in the future, there will probably be no analog signals on the cable system at all and all cable subs will either need a digital STB, or "digital cable ready" set. The analog signals are a bandwidth hog, as each one takes up 6MHZ of bandwith, which is enough room for several digital SD channels -- with QAM, 2 HD signals(about 38Mb/s) can fit in a 6MHZ channel, maybe 3 or more with rate shaping or more efficent codec(MPEG4/etc).

Also, while you may have been able to get good analog cable signals, quality is often a problem with analog cable for various reasons - Ingress(interference) issues, distribution issues. With digital, as long as there is a "good enough" signal, the picture quality isn't degraded by interference, weak signals(snow), ghosting/etc.

That being said, If they are "simulcasting" both analog+digital versions of channels, TW must currently have at least a bit of "extra" bandwidth available on their system ....

Update: Of course, both the broadcasters and the cableco also currently "simulcast" analog+digital(including HD) broadcast stations. So, if they are doing a "seperate" SD version for those DTV broadcasters which are sending HD it seems we're really currently talking about a 3-way "simulcast" here ....

Nitewatchman

12-26-05, 01:57 PM

I would suggest that maybe the set top box is converting the analog channels to digital, especially if it's a DVR because it does so for recording.

I wouldn't think so, as I don't think most digital STB's(other than DVR's) from the cableco have encoders in them. Furthermore, it wouldn't work for "digital cable ready" sets or cablecard or QAM "tuners" either -- whearas Sending a digital SD simulcast of the analog "channels" via MPEG2/QAM would.

jimp2244

12-26-05, 02:56 PM

The set top box I was referring to is not a DVR, just a digital cable set top box. Hope that clears things up.

rleist

12-26-05, 03:59 PM

Jeff, I agree with all you stated, I just don't think the time is near for a switch over from analog to digital unless the cable co's are going to hand out digital STBs for free. There are millions of cable ready sets out there that aren't going away any time soon and I can't see people being happy with having to rent digital STBs for them all.

Rob

DrDon

12-26-05, 04:34 PM

I can't see people being happy with having to rent digital STBs for them all. Playing devil's advocate with you, but what option would consumers have? DBS charges a $5 "mirroring fee" for each additional box. I'm sure cable is salivating at the thought of being able to push customers back into renting a box per TV just like in the old days. And tomorrow's TVs will have cablecard slots. Sure, there will be some channels you can get without subbing the set. But I'd bet one of my autographed guitars that you'll be looking at mirroring fees for each one of those sets unless you're subbing the top package they offer.

Again, just some speculation on my part.

Doc

rleist

12-26-05, 05:38 PM

Don, Thats my biggest complaint with DBS. I could almost understand it if I was just renting the DBS receivers like with cable boxes, but it irks me that I have bought the sat box but still have to pay them $5 per month for it.

I can see lots households like my parents that have 5 cable ready sets and trying to tell them they need to now pay an additional $25 for STBs. That will just drive more people to DBS as it eliminates one of the advantages of cable of not needing a STB.

Rob

Paul210

12-27-05, 08:29 AM

I'd bet one of my autographed guitars that you'll be looking at mirroring fees... Doc

Okay, way off-topic, but who autographed them and do you know how to play them? Please don't tell me "Elvis"!

DrDon

12-27-05, 08:50 AM

There's a slew of country music stars' signatures on each one. About 30 - 40 each. Everyone from Reba and Dolly down to no-names. Bands still together and bands long since split up. Most alive, some who have moved on. And, no, I don't play. I'm strictly a brass guy. Or was. Haven't picked up my horn in eons.

That didn't sound quite right...

ScottA

12-27-05, 10:43 AM

I was actually referring to digital cable, where the cable company encodes and sends the video in a digital stream to the set top box which saves bandwidth and provides a better picture (well, depending on if you'd rather have analog fuzzies/snow/interference or digital mpeg artifacting). I wasn't referring to digital as in HDTV, which is done at the broadcaster. The industry really hasn't done much for itself to help ease any confusion...

I can confirm that this was done (at least in Mason) in October. I have a modulator that is sending programs stored on my Replay DVR throughout the house via coax. I stopped receiving some channels on TW and had them come look. They said they were converting the "lower" channels to digital and my modulator was interfering with the new channels. I moved my modulated channels and everything works.

The TW tech left me a chart of the networks affected and what coax channel is used. Would anyone like to see it here?

// Scott A

terryfoster

12-27-05, 04:09 PM

Children's Programming For 2006

WCPO-DT, our digital channel, will begin airing a Saturday morning (9 a.m. - 12 a.m.) block of children's programming in 2006.

This children's programming will air simultaneously with our analog channel, WCPO-TV Channel 9. WCPO will announce the specific program titles at a later date.

Posted 12/14/2005 10:49:33 AM by Liz Foreman

I'm confused, did WCPO not air the Saturday morning Disney shows before?

-Thinks that 15 hours of children's programming every saturday is a bit excessive and will preempt ABC's college football Saturday.

cokebear

12-27-05, 04:43 PM

I'm not getting any dropouts through TWC, just a noticeable decrease in clarity. Maybe it's due to their HD DVR. I have no idea what the reason for the poorer PQ would be.

I notice a good deal of improvement when I use the QAM tuner in the set over the HDbox that TW gave me.

nelmr

12-28-05, 09:58 AM

I have had my OTA tuner for about 3 or 4 weeks now. It is a RCA ATSC11 I got from ebay for about $110 shipped. I've noticed that many shows say "Dolby Digital" when swithcing to them but I don't get DD5.1. Do the local Cincinnati networks broadcast DD5.1 or is it just pro logic? Perhaps I have something set up wrong but I have the digital coxail out connected to my reciever. I thought I use to get DD5.1 when I first had the STB. Maybe I swichted the STB to output PCM instead of DD? I don't know I will have to check now that I think about it but I was wanting to confirm which networks broadcast HD with DD5.1 thanks.

dusterscott

12-28-05, 10:08 AM

Nitewatchman

12-28-05, 12:42 PM

I'm confused, did WCPO not air the Saturday morning Disney shows before?

-Thinks that 15 hours of children's programming every saturday is a bit excessive and will preempt ABC's college football Saturday.

I'd bet that was a typo and they mean 9am~12pm.

I believe there is however, a new FCC regulation which may go into effect somewhat "soon"(it was Jan 1, 2006 I believe, but they've extended it a bit recently, and it is possible it may be changed to something else/etc. before it goes into effect) which as is currently written will require digital broadcast stations to air 3 hours of children's educational/etc. programming(I think it has to be labled "E/I") per week for EVERY programming service(i.e. multicast subchannel) the station provides. That would include, say, 3 hours for WCPO-DT's "main" service(9.1 PSIP remapped), and 3 hours for their "9 weather tracker"(9.2) service -- I think those 6 hours could be put on the "main"(9.1) service. This of course applies to "The Tube" from WXIX-DT, and WKRC-DT's 12.2 weather radar subchannel as well, and it will be interesting to see how stations in the area which are multicasting will handle these new regs ....

update: BTW, noticed WKOI-DT/TBN added a all children's service a few days ago(43.5 PSIP remapped OTA), so, now WKOI-DT is doing 5 mulitcast SD services. That should take care of the new regs for them, I'd imagine ....

terryfoster

12-28-05, 04:39 PM

I don't think [WLWT-DT] and [WKRC-DT] broadcast in 5.1 yet. See the first post of this thread.
Also, WCPO-DT is rarely turning on their 5.1 system. From their site it would seem this issue will be fixed with their equipment upgrade.

terryfoster

12-28-05, 04:48 PM

I'd bet that was a typo and they mean 9am~12pm.

I believe there is however a new FCC regulation which should go into effect somewhat "soon"(it was Jan 1, 2006 I believe, but they've extended it a bit recently) which requires digital stations to air 3 hours of children's educational/etc. programming(I think it has to be labled "E/I") per week for EVERY programming service(i.e. multicast subchannel) the station provides.

Yeah, I kind of guess about the typo. I'm just wondering why this is "news" since (I believe) they have been airing the 3 hour Disney Saturday Morning programming. Is this a real change or just an announcement that they are (already) compliant with the new regulation?

Nitewatchman

12-28-05, 04:53 PM

Is this a real change or just an announcement that they are (already) compliant with the new regulation?

I'd bet it's mostly probably just an announcement of "some sort". Don't keep up on all the details of the children's programming reg's nor pay much attention to what exactly the stations in the area do to meet the regs to say for sure, though.

BTW, I edited my last post a bit, as I'd read there is a possibility that there could be some changes to those new regs ...

Nitewatchman

01-01-06, 01:07 AM

WLWT-DT has DD 5.1 audio now "when available", including for SNL HD tonight.

Also noticed weatherplus is having audio issues tonight.

Happy New Year everyone.

JunkyardDogg

01-01-06, 02:35 PM

I think it is time for WKRC-DT to join the DD 5.1 party.

For those with PC HD cards, is it possible to see the bitrates of each station? It would be very interesting to see this information for Cincinnati and Dayton stations.

dusterscott

01-01-06, 07:32 PM

I recently signed up for TWC's Digipic 1000 + HD Tier + SA's Explorer 8300 DVR. So far I'm not very impressed. The local HD channels are virtually useless to me. The picture and sound quality of the Dayton channels that I receive OTA is much better overall. Fox is about the same for picture and sound. As expected, there is only a couple of the Cincinnati HD channels broadcasting in Dolby 5.1. I am having audio and video dropouts on INHD, INHD2, HDNet, HDNet Movies and on On Demand HD Pay Per View Channels. Friday night I tried to order "The Ring 2", advertised as in HD and Dolby 5.1. It wasn't available Friday night due to technical difficulties. I was able to watch it Saturday morning but with very annoying audio/video dropouts throughout the movie. The movie wasn't presented in Dolby 5.1. I have a 30-day money back guarantee. Before I call and cancel, is anyone aware of any temporary issues that TWC might be having?

jim tressler

01-01-06, 09:57 PM

Weasle ??? any word when??

I think it is time for WKRC-DT to join the DD 5.1 party.

For those with PC HD cards, is it possible to see the bitrates of each station? It would be very interesting to see this information for Cincinnati and Dayton stations.

cokebear

01-01-06, 10:18 PM

jimp2244

01-01-06, 10:39 PM

I've looked long and hard but I have not been able to find any way to determine the bitrates using the PC tuner card. I agree that it would be interesting to see though.

1450kHz

01-01-06, 10:43 PM

You need to capture the transport stream using a PC card (FusionHDTV 3 can do this) and then get TSReader lite software to analyze the transport stream file and get the bitrate information.

microbob

01-01-06, 10:50 PM

Weasle ??? any word when??

It would be nice to hear CSI in 5.1..I hope CC has it in the budget for WKRC-DT in Q1

mspalacios

01-01-06, 11:15 PM

I have no signal from WCPO-DT - anyone else with this issue? Nothing has changed on my setup (Winegard SS-1000 / HR-250). I've rescanned for channels and still no channel 9-1. Thanks.

wesg

01-02-06, 11:57 AM

I got a new (to me) used HDTV Sony 34" KW34HD1 over the holidays. Hooked it up to my attic installed Wineguard directional antenna and my reception was not as good as hoped.

For example I get WCET (48) WXIX (19) rock solid, and I get WLWT (5) and WPTO (14) with mild to frequent drop outs. WCPO (9) and WKRC (12) are complete no shows.

My NTSC TVs hooked to the same antenna get clear reception of WCPO and shaky reception on WKRC. I'm confused about why I would get WCPO in NTSC and not the ATSC version from the same antenna.

Any thoughts out there? I'm using the OTA tuner that came with the KW34HD1 which is about 5 yrs old now. Could the older ATSC tuner be part of the problem?

Thanks for the help everyone.

Wes

jimp2244

01-02-06, 12:42 PM

I'll give the TSReader lite software a shot.

wesg, the analog and digital signals from the tv stations use different transmitters, and in some cases, even different towers. To your antenna and tuners, WLWT is channel 5, and WLWT-DT is channel 35. Both of these transmit from the same tower, however, notice that 5 is VHF and 35 is UHF, so if your antenna is better for receiving one or the other, that could account for a difference in your ability to get a good lock on the channel. I believe WPTO out of oxford actually has its digital transmitter in Cincinnati, which would mean you'd even have to aim your antenna in a different direction for digital than you would for analog. Eventually the analog stations will go away and most stations will go back to their original frequency (WLWT-DT 35 would move back to 5 for example). But for now, while all of the stations have two frequencies (one for analog and one for digital), FOR THE MOST PART, all of the digital stations are in the UHF range. WCPO-DT (9 analog and 10 digital) is an execption to this, and like I said most stations will switch back eventually, so don't think that you can get a UHF only antenna and it will be good forever.

As for your particular antenna, I don't know the exact model, but either way you can get a lot of multi-path issues with it in your attic. Pretty much that is the signal bouncing around and taking different paths to get to your antenna, arriving at different times. It results in ghosting on analog signals, and can account for drop-outs on digital.

You could test the multi-path theory by tuning in some UHF channels on analog (19 WXIX, 48 WCET, and 64 WSTR are good ones to try). If you get a lot of ghosting on these, then multipath is most likely your problem. Remember that multi-path can be different on different frequencies though, so even after testing this it may not be 100% conclusive.

jimp2244

01-02-06, 12:48 PM

Just a few more notes...

Because digital is either full perfect picture or no picture at all, you have to get more things "right" to be able to enjoy it. But when you do get everything right, you'll enjoy a perfect picture with little to no dropouts. Digital also seems to have a better range than analog. I was in Dayton for a few years, and up there, I was able to pull in WLWT-DT, WKRC-DT, WXIX-DT and WCET-DT all very well. However, I was not able to get anything even close to watchable on the analog channels. On 19 WXIX I sometimes get sound and a picture so fuzzy it was impossible to pick things out, but that was it.

William Smith

01-02-06, 01:37 PM

It costs a lot of cash to move a station back to its original analog channel. Given the age of the analog plants most stations are electing to stay on the digital allocation.

wesg

01-02-06, 02:47 PM

Thanks for the comments. I'm still suspicious of the tuner, it is fairly old and I've seen substantial tuning differences from TV to TV on the same antenna. So I'm going to pick up a ProBrand HD3150 HDTV receiver from Circut City tonight and see if it does any better. If not, then I'll return it, but it at least well tell me if I need to mount the antenna on the roof or sign up for cable.

My attic is very small and allows for no antenna position adjustments. Thanks for your comments, I'm getting smarter every day.

BTW-- WCET (48) is my clearest signal, by far, on NTSC and ATSC and I've not seen any substantial ghosting so far.

tbenson81

01-02-06, 04:40 PM

Think maybe WCPO can turn on the HD feed for the biggest game of the year?

So far its not meant to be. I guess we will all be watching the Fiesta Bowl in SD because of the big "thunderstorm" on its way. At least Nightwatchman will be happy!

DrDon

01-02-06, 04:44 PM

ABC's pregame isn't usually in HD. It's not HD here in Detroit, either. But the game now is. You seeing it, now?

tbenson81

01-02-06, 04:58 PM

Still more weather updates and no HD here. This is how it always is in Cincinnati. People are too sheltered and panick over a little storm.

PS- GO IRISH!

DrJohn07

01-02-06, 05:05 PM

Still more weather updates and no HD here. This is how it always is in Cincinnati. People are too sheltered and panick over a little storm.

PS- GO IRISH!

This is ridiculous. I've seen this happen as well. They keep that stupid T-storm warning map in the corner, forcing the broadcast to stay in SD. :roll:

This is pissing me off. Is there any way we can call their sorry asses?

TL2000

01-02-06, 05:05 PM

Does anyone know the number to call to complain about this travesty? How can this game not be in HD?

ATM

01-02-06, 05:09 PM

Nice to see the game in SDTV with the weather warning, it used to be nobody was watching so they didn't care, now it seems there are people watching and they still don't care

tbenson81

01-02-06, 05:11 PM

Dont let nightwatchman hear everyone talk like this. He thinks its a "public service" and these weather updates are a necessity.

I think its absolutely pathetic and the Cincinnati affiliates are a joke

ATM

01-02-06, 05:14 PM

But if a tornado hit during a commerical break, they still wouldn't put the info on the screen (don't want to make advertisers mad) as they remove the warning info during commericals.

tbenson81

01-02-06, 05:19 PM

Thanks for the number - I am going to keep calling and calling until this is resolved
Here is the newsroom number

WCPO-DT 9/10 Newsroom 513-852-4071*

mailinator

01-02-06, 05:25 PM

As soon as i hung up with them it switched. I'll go ahead and take credit. You're welcome. :)

tim99

01-02-06, 05:33 PM

Considering it's also on ABC this year its scary to think what will happen if the wind blows or a dark cloud appears during the Super Bowl.

Bubster

01-02-06, 05:52 PM

Back to SD at 550pm. At least the jaggies are gone. :mad:

peteranton

01-02-06, 06:00 PM

Yep...break in if there is a tornado in my area....but severe TS? What the heck can I (or would I) do differently? These weather guys (and GMs) are such idiots!

I rest my case.

Nitewatchman

01-02-06, 08:07 PM

Dont let nightwatchman hear everyone talk like this. He thinks its a "public service" and these weather updates are a necessity.

Don't tell others what I think(you have no idea), or put words in my mouth.

#1).It is a public service, it has nothing to do with what I(or you) think. Everything that is broadcast on any given broadcast station is a public service to some extent, for that matter.

#2). As for what "I think" concerning when or if, and/or in which cases it is a "necessity" for stations to provide severe weather information, I don't believe I've ever offered an opinion on the matter.

I don't usually see the point in offering such an opinion. If I have a significant issue with what the stations do in this regard that I can't solve by switching channels I will contact them about it, I don't generally have a reason to post what I "think" about it here.

Now, in the past, in response to some of your comments on this issue I have posted information concerning WHY stations provide severe weather information, and noted some examples when it can be useful for folks(and in a couple of cases when I found such info useful), but that's not the same as saying I think any given weather update/bugs/info on screen is a "necessity".

As for the reason WHY WCPO-DT often drops from ABC HD feed to SD at the drop of a hat for weather bugs/severe weather updates/etc, I believe it is a technical issue involving how they have it setup to switch to/from HD/SD feeds/etc. as has been discussed in detail in this thread numerous times.

The thing to do is either put up an antenna on your roof(if you can/etc.) and watch Jaggie+weather bug/etc. free ABC HD from WKEF-=DT Dayton, or, call them(use the newsroom line during non-business hours) and ask them(nicely) to switch back to HD.

jim tressler

01-02-06, 08:40 PM

wkef out of dayton has been fantastic!! too bad the luckeys win again... i did flip to wcpo for a few minutes and the jaggies were horrid!! hopefully they will get the encoder upgrade soon.. otherwise its crap hd from wcpo again..

on another note, good to wlwt pumping 5.1

jim

microbob

01-02-06, 09:03 PM

on another note, good to wlwt pumping 5.1

jim

Surface sounds great..There was a problem briefly with no dialog channel tonight for the first few minutes of the show but it was fixed quickly.

tbenson81

01-02-06, 09:15 PM

Calm down Jeff - I was only kidding!

The point was simply - as it was 6 months ago when we brought this up

Severe Weather in Cincinnati is never "severe" and does not warrant an interruption in broadcast, much the less a game of this magnitude

It is not a public service when nobody is in any real danger. I dont think it even dropped a drop of rain here.

PS - You told everyone what you thought a few months ago. Scroll back about 50 pages if you have to

Nitewatchman

01-02-06, 09:27 PM

Eventually the analog stations will go away and most stations will go back to their original frequency (WLWT-DT 35 would move back to 5 for example).

Although many folks thought that would be the way it would happen "way back when" It's not turning out that way for various reasons, including the info William provided.

Concerning the example you noted, one factor that may have also been an issue in their decision is there have been questions concerning whether or not Lo-VHF channel 2-6(54~88MHZ) is "suitable enopugh" for DTV -- due to "cliff effect" with DTV when SNR drops below ~16db SNR as it relates to various interference issues that are more of an issue on those frequencies than is the case elsewhere. For that reason, few stations so far have elected channels 2-6 for use for DTV after analog shut off, and I personally think it possible there may end up being very few DTV stations in the U.S. using 2-6 excepting perhaps LP DTV stations and translators - which, BTW, current max power set by FCC in its relatively new LP DTV rules is 300Watts ERP for LP DTV stations on any VHF channel, compare to 15KW ERP on UHF .... 300Watts DTV ERP can certianly do more than what some folks might expect, however I don't know how well it will do on Lo-VHF during nearby thunderstorms ....

-----------------

As for what channels the digital stations will end up broadcasting on after analog shut off - FCC released a post transistion "tentative channel designation" list at completion of first round of channel elections a few months back ... here it is as excel spreadsheet :

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-05-2649A2.xls

BTW, those interested can find a lot of info+documents from the FCC concerning DTV transistion here :

http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/

The vast majority of stations made their channel election choice(where they'll end up after the analogs shut off) in the first round, and I'd imagine the vast majority of the current tentative channel designations will likely stick - but, they won't be set in stone until FCC publishes a table of allotments at end of all 3 rounds of channel election process -- In other words, they'll probably be set in stone, more or less a year or so from now ..

I've posted this before I believe, but, for convienience here is list/summary of Cincinnati/Dayton current post-transisition tentative channel assignments from FCC(Update : I also updated the first "station info" post of this thread with this info for the Cincinnati stations) , as well as some notes concerning what I expect might happen with the LP's :

Cincinnati/Oxford+N KY area :

Current digital channel in use first, analog channel currently in use in parentheses -then their channel election/current tentative post transistion channel assignment at right.

WCPO-DT 10 (9) - 10
WKRC-DT 31 (12)- 12
WCVN-DT 24 (54)- 24 - *
WPTO-DT 28 (14)- 28
WXIX-DT 29 (19) - 29
WSTR-DT 33 (64) - 33 - *
WCET-DT 34 (48) - 34
WLWT-DT 35 (5) - 35
WKOI-DT 39 (43) - 39
WKON-DT 44 (52)- 44 - *

Cincinnati Low power/Class A stations(all currently analog only) :

There was some info some time back that indicated WBQC-CA 38 might seek a 2nd digital companion channel, otherwise I think it might be somewhat of a decent guess that, if they all are able to stay on the air after the transistion Cincinnati low power analog stations on 25,36,38 will probabably transisition to digital on channel, if W61DE 36's new channel 36 works out that is .... I'm pretty much allways getting CCI from WTVQ 36 lexington up here, and noticed they haven't yet filed a license to cover app for 36 even though they moved from 61 a couple of months ago.

-----------------------------------------------------

Dayton:

Current digital channel first, current analog channel in parentheses - then their current tentative post transistion channel designation at right :

WPTD-DT 58(16) - 16 *
WBDT-DT 18 (26)- 26
WRGT-DT 30 (45)- 30 **
WHIO-DT 41 (7) - 41
WDTN-DT 50 (2) - 50
WKEF-DT 51 (22) - 51 **

Dayton Low power stations (all currently analog only) :

While currently on 55, WWRD-LP Dayton currently has a CP(construction permit) from FCC to move to channel 32, and W47BC Springfield moved to 20 just before Christmas. So, Just a guess, but again, if they manage to stay on the air post-transistion I'd guess there's a good chance the Dayton LP digitals, including WRCX-LP 40 may be transistioning on channel (20,40+55).

-------------------

* - Since WKON 52(analog) WCVN 54(analog), WSTR 64(analog), and WPTD-DT 58(digital) are out of core assignments, these 4 stations had to either :

1). elect their single in-core channel assignment(whether it be digital or analog currently) in first round(ch 2-51 are the in-core channels to be used by TV broadcasters after analog shut off - channel 52-69 are being refarmed for other uses.

or

2.) "ask" for, or have FCC "chose" another channel assignment in later rounds of the channel election process. All 4 stations in this case elected to partipate in first round, and to chose their current in core assignment.

** - WKEF "originally" chose 22, and WRGT "orginally" chose 45 in their first round election but received interference conflict notices from FCC, and changed their elections(which were then approved by FCC) to their current digital channel assignments.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW, the only station in our general area I know of which didn't participate in first round and/or receive a tentative channel designation from FCC was WIPB 49(DT 52), Muncie, IN. In Second round, they asked for channel 23 as a first choice, and channel 7 as a second choice. Also, although WDKY-DT 4 Lexington, KY participated in 1st round and elected channel 4(their only in core assignment, the analog is on 56), I think it very possible they may change that election choice in third round, which per the rules is an option they have as station with only Lo-VHF in core assignment.

It costs a lot of cash to move a station back to its original analog channel. Given the age of the analog plants most stations are electing to stay on the digital allocation.

Yes, I think another factor involved might be the rules involving channel election procedure+interference protection+FCC's interference analysis of the channel election choices. I think those rules favor stations with in-core digital channel assignments staying on their current digital channel assignment -- If I read the rules correctly, I think stations which elected an in-core digital channel assignment got first priority for interference conflicts. So, If, for instance WCPO-DT 10 had elected their analog assignment for channel 9, they would have had to protect WISH-DT Indy, DT which is on 9 and they elected 9. WCPO-DT of course elected 10, WBNS-DT 21(10 analog) Columbus elected channel 10 at first, but received a interference conflict notice from FCC and changed their election to 21.

In any event, the way it looks like it is going to turn out here, for DTV Dx'ing hobby I'm very much looking forward to analog shut off time ... OTOH, it will be odd to only see NTSC analog stations occasionally via Tropo or E-skip from Canada(Including on ch 52-69 if the past is any clue -- new spectrum users on ch 52-69 might end up being a little surprised around here when tropo from ontairo rolls in ....), Mexico+Cuba ....

Nitewatchman

01-02-06, 09:32 PM

PS - You told everyone what you thought a few months ago. Scroll back about 50 pages if you have to

I know what I said back then, but the problem was that you interpeted it incorrectly, and it appears you are still doing so.

Severe Weather in Cincinnati is never "severe" .....

You have certianly suceeded with your "kidding", as I certianly find this comment quite humorous ...

In any event, I'm not getting into this again, as I have much better things to do, and I think we covered this issue in detail earlier in this thread. Complain+moan about it all you want for all the good it will do you, Just please don't directly post what I "think" about this or that issue, at the very least unless you either #1).get it right, and/or 2.) without direct "in context" quotes.

gremmie4

01-02-06, 09:44 PM

chrisirmo

01-02-06, 11:57 PM

One thing I did notice tonight during the game (when it was actually in HD) was the big WCPO "bug" that goes in the middle of the screen appeared over the HD broadcast. I don't believe I've ever seen that from them before. Does this mean the equipment is in place and we're one step closer to the end of "severe" weather bugs dropping us all to SD?

Sea Ray

01-03-06, 01:15 AM

Is the audio for WCPO out of sync for anyone else using Time Warner? The audio is badly out of sync on both my Pace box and my Pioneer box. Is this a Time Warner problem do I need to call them to check my end?

EDIT: Also, is WCPO placing the ABCHD bug or is it placed from the ABC feed? I've noticed that it is barely cutting off the D on my TV and I have my overscan set very low. Also, the jaggies are absolutely horrid tonight. I hope they can get them fixed before the super bowl.

Yes indeed. The synch on WCPO on my TWC setup has been off for a couple of months now. Perhaps they'll address this when they install the new endoder.

As near as I can tell the audio lags behind the video (very unusual) and the the commercials seem to be more off than the HD broadcast itself. I have a PACE box.

jimp2244

01-03-06, 07:26 AM

Concerning the example you noted, one factor that may have also been an issue in their decision is there have been questions concerning whether or not Lo-VHF channel 2-6(54~88MHZ) is "suitable enopugh" for DTV -- due to "cliff effect" with DTV when SNR drops below ~16db SNR as it relates to various interference issues that are more of an issue on those frequencies than is the case elsewhere. For that reason, few stations so far have elected channels 2-6 for use for DTV after analog shut off, and I personally think it possible there may end up being very few DTV stations in the U.S. using 2-6 excepting perhaps LP DTV stations and translators - which, BTW, current max power set by FCC in its relatively new LP DTV rules is 300Watts ERP for LP DTV stations on any VHF channel, compare to 15KW ERP on UHF .... 300Watts DTV ERP can certianly do more than what some folks might expect, however I don't know how well it will do on Lo-VHF during nearby thunderstorms ....

Can you provide a little more detail on this? Could we definitively say that UHF is better than VHF for DTV? What about for analog? I am curious to know if a particular frequency range is better than another as far as signal quality and also range goes.

Do you also happen to know if all of the "main" stations in the area broadcast with the same power and or viewing area range? (By "main" I mean stations carrying NBC, CBS, FOX, and ABC networks). I would assume they all broadcast with the maximum power allowed by the FCC, but would this be the same for all?

terryfoster

01-03-06, 08:57 AM

Also, is WCPO placing the ABCHD bug or is it placed from the ABC feed? I've noticed that it is barely cutting off the D on my TV and I have my overscan set very low.

This bug is sent over the ABC feed. It would seem that you don't have your overscan set low enough as I have a fair amount of space to the right of this bug on my DLP.

I think it is time for WKRC-DT to join the DD 5.1 party.

Don't forget WCPO since they still don't broadcast in DD 5.1. I understand they have broadcast in DD 5.1, but they have not done this since Novemberish.

One thing I did notice tonight during the game (when it was actually in HD) was the big WCPO "bug" that goes in the middle of the screen appeared over the HD broadcast. Does this mean the equipment is in place and we're one step closer to the end of "severe" weather bugs dropping us all to SD?

I've seen it for a long time (several months if not over a year).

I want to look at this bug more closely tonight or tomorrow since my WKEF reception has been lousy lately. I do not believe that this is subject to their jaggie problem. I don't know if its worth bringing to their attention or not since they are doing an equipment upgrade in this quarter.

Nitewatchman

01-03-06, 09:43 AM

Yes, that big orange+black and white WCPO-DT bug up in middle of screen for about a year or so, its been around almost, or, as long as the "jaggies". Prior to the studio move, to ID the digital they had a different "WCPO-DT 10" bug that went in Upper right hand corner of screen, and generally was inserted around the same time as the new bug -- usually around 17minutes past+before the hour - both both during HD+SD upconverts. Which, BTW when I've checked it is about the same time the new ID bug is inserted).

Who knows, but I think it(or whatever is keying it) could very well have something to do with the jaggies -- especially as I think(but not positive) the new bug ONLY goes in during HD(which is also different than the way it worked before the studio move) -- I think currently They use the ID that runs on the SD(analog) feed when HD feed is not being used. Haven't paid enough attention, but since the jaggies/1280x360 "effective" resolution is only happening during ABC HD feed, that's just another indication that the encoder is fine, and it's something else that is in line in ONLY the signal chain for ABC HD feed(not for SD upconverts) that is downsampling to 1280x360 causing the "jaggies"/staircase pattern issue during ABC HD.

So, furthermore, I would imagine IF the "new" local bug that's up during HD is different than the old way they inserted the ID bug -- which could have been/and I'd guess probably was at done at the encoder-most HD encoders can do a simple ID logo insertion), AND they are in fact only running the new bug during HD feeds --again, I think it's possible the "way" they are doing it could have something to do with the jaggies which again, is being caused by something in ONLY the ABC HD signal chain downsampling to 1280x360 ("something" which would seem to obviously have to be "in-line" BEFORE the HD encoder - which, as mentioned before was working just fine at 1080i up until spring 2003, and working just fine+jaggie free at 720p between Spring 2003 and Summer 2004) . ...

Otherwise, if the "new" bug insertion is happening+is setup the same way as it was before their studio move(the jaggies didn't start happening during ABC HD until AFTER their studio move), I don't see how it could be an issue involved.

Update:

Don't forget WCPO since they still don't broadcast in DD 5.1. I understand they have broadcast in DD 5.1, but they have not done this since Novemberish.

They can and do broadcast in DD 5.1, I think the problem is that they are missing a lot of it because they have said they have to switch to 5.1 feed manually -- If I recall correctly, someone posted some info from their engineers which seemed to suggest they were going to work on that sometime 1Q 2006.

Pretty sure they've sent DD 5.1 more recently than that, although I rarely watch them because of the "jaggies" and haven't checked all that often.

Nitewatchman

01-03-06, 10:29 AM

Can you provide a little more detail on this?
[

Here are a couple of articles:

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/On-RF/Low_BandVHF.shtml

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/On-RF/f_DTV_on_LowBandVHF-03.10.04.shtml

There used to be a report on DTV reception field tests on atscforum.org or atsc.org, including results from a early test site in NC on low-VHF 6 but I can't seem to find it on atscforum's redesigned website. Also, you should be able to dig up quite a bit of info on a search of AVS, and perhaps especially the AVSforum archives if you search for Low VHF, channel 3, WBBM, etc/etc.

Could we definitively say that UHF is better than VHF for DTV?

First off, all good questions!

Keep in mind my comments above were about DTV on lo-VHF channels 2-6(54~88MHZ), not Hi-VHF channels 7-13(174~216 MHZ), where impulse noise isn't as much of an issue, and Co-channel interference from E-skip(sporadic E propagation) also isn't really an issue, as it often is for lo-VHF.

But, no, certianly not. As with most things, there are advantages and disadvantages involved. For instance, VHF covers the same coverage area with much less power than required for UHF. In my experience, VHF also is often much more receivable in terrain challenged locations, as the longer wavelengths can "get around" the hills easier, so to speak. Generally, VHF is also easier to receive from indoors I think -- however, OTOH, interference from household appliances/wiring/etc. is also more likely to be an issue on VHF, especially VHF-lo.

What about for analog?

The OTA signals themselves aren't inherently different for DTV -- the signal is modulated a bit differently, but mostly It's just the information sent within the signal as digital with DTV that is different -- the signal propagation characteristics of any given frequency/band are exactly the same for either analog or DTV.

What is different is that with analog, while you see reception impairments(snow/ghosting/interferece) directly on the screen -- with digital, you either have ~16db of signal over noise+perfect reception, or you have less than 16db of SNR and you get no reception, and/or you get dropouts during those times when the noise level increases(multipath that is uncorrectable by receiver is also seen by the receiver as "extra" noise) to enough of an extent that the SNR drops below about 15~16db SNR.

So, with analog, "static" added to screen on say, channel 5 during a nearby lightning strike may be acceptable to viewers, while with digital a complete dropout(of both audio and video) for a few seconds due to the noise spike from the lightning strike may not be as acceptable. Since this sort of electrical interference is much more of an issue on lo-VHF, that's one of the reasons why there are "questions" concerning the suitablilty of lo-VHF for DTV as the noise levels from lightning and man-made sources of the same type of "impulse noise" interference can be quite high on lo-VHF channels(and lower VHF/HF frequencies as well), especially below channel 5 -- Not to say it can't be an issue with higher frequencies as well, just nowhere near as much so as lo-VHF TV band and lower.

I am curious to know if a particular frequency range is better than another as far as signal quality and also range goes.

Generally speaking in a very overall sense, I think the answer to that is No. BUT, there are certian advantages+disadvantages to either VHF or UHF, and the "devil" can be in the details in any given receiving(or transmitting) situaiton which may "seem" or be "better:" For example, there can be advantages in one case to say, Lo-VHF(say from a terrain challenged location), and disadvantes in other cases(such as in a urban area with indoor antenna) .. In some cases also, signals on VHF(low-VHF especially) may also be able to "bend" around curvature of earth a bit more+enable some sort of regular reception from a bit farther distance. Also, your coax run will lose more signal at higher UHF frequencies, that's another factor that in some cases might make VHF look "better".

Do you also happen to know if all of the "main" stations in the area broadcast with the same power and or viewing area range?

Yes, the coverage area is quite similiar and is generally about 55~65 miles radius for most of the full service stations in our area, no all station aren't running the exact same power levels or from the exact same transmitting antenna heights or with the same antenna patterns - Concerning the latter for instance, WLWT-DT/WKRC-DT/WCPO-DT are non-directional patterns and use Horizontal polarization, but WXIX-DT's antenna pattern has some slight nulls and is elliptically polarized. WCET-DT+WSTR-DT have even more directional antenna patterns. Info from FCC site concerning any/amount of beam tilt(which can also be an issue I think - It can be set up so that more of the signal is squirted "within" the "central area" of the coverage area, OR so that more signal is sent towards the horizon) is not accessabile for those stations that I can find.

For more info, You'll find some notes on this in first post of this thread, and You can dig up the 41dbu for UHF, 36dbu for VHF-HI, 28dbu for VHF-low signal contour maps from FCC from a "detailed" query here(make sure to choose the "detailed info+CDBS links" option in order to get a link for the contour maps under each station's licensed facilitiy or STA or Construction permit entry) :

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html

Keep in mind those signal contour maps don't use longely-rice/don't take terrain shielding issues into account. Station power levels are also given in results from above query. Also, Keep in mind that while 1000KW ERP may seem to be a lot more than say, 512KW ERP -- each doubling of power is only a ~3db increase in signal. Also, While power is/can be an issue, the main factor concerning how far a station can be received on a regular/consistant basis is curvature of earth and how it relates to transmitting antenna/receiving antenna height.

(By "main" I mean stations carrying NBC, CBS, FOX, and ABC networks). I would assume they all broadcast with the maximum power allowed by the FCC, but would this be the same for all?

There are a lot of factors involved concerning how much power a station is running -- With DTV, it is set up that for the most part, the DTV stations coverage area is the same(or nearly so) as the analog station. One exception to this in our area currently is WSTR-DT, whose transmitting antenna for DTV station is much different than the analog station(It has some significant nulls, especially to the SE of their tower, but also E+NE is a null as well), and they are currently running "low power" STA - 17.1KW ERP(you'll get much less than that from them though if you are in one of the nulls). WSTR is currently the only digital station in Cincinnati/Dayton currently at "low power" - WCET-DT is operating under STA and at less than fully authorized levels -- but not by all that much(215KW ERP currently - which is still a LOT of power for UHF DTV). In any event, you'll find info on the power, directional antenna patterns/antenna height/etc. at FCC query I provided a link to above.

Another important factor other than the max limits FCC has set(such as 1000KW max ERP for UHF DTV stations) where power/antenna height/etc. is concerned and how high their antenna can be or how much power any given station on any given channel can be allocated is that stations must not cause interference to co-channel full service stations in other, nearby markets. Such as WCPO-DT 10, Cincinnati, WBNS 10 Columbus. So, max power FCC will allow for a given station/antenna pattern/height/etc. is often going to vary, and won't necessarily be the same as the maximum power allowed in any case on any given frequency.

nees1212

01-03-06, 04:03 PM

jspicoli

01-03-06, 04:10 PM

I had DIRECTV HD installed over the weekend, and when talking to the installer, about setting up an OTA antenna for the locals, he said that the local channels would be available in HD over my DIRECTV dish in the spring. He said a new satellite was recently launched, and there would be no need for the OTA antennas. Has anyone else heard this?

Also, I wish I couldn't enjoyed my TV over the weekend for the bowl games, but it appears that I bought a lemon. :mad:

Try using standard indoor rabbit ears to your new HD tuner. I was able to pick up everything from Lakeside Park, KY.

Actually, when they came back and installed a rooftop antenna, my OTA was worse than the rabbit ears.

rleist

01-03-06, 04:21 PM

nees1212

01-03-06, 05:01 PM

nees1212, DirecTV has put up new satellites that use a newer encoding scheme to deliver local HD channels. There are a number of cities that have local HD channels available now. I have not heard when Cincinnati will be available. I'm not sure what receiver they installed for you, but you may require a new one to get the locals from the new satellites. You will definitely need a new dish.

Depending on where you are located you can start off by trying some rabbit ears as I did. I later installed an outdoor antenna. I feel getting the locals off air will be better quality anyway as for when they go to the new satellites the signal will be switching to a different encoding that may degrade the quality. There are discussions in the HDTV Hardware forum about the quality differences in the cities where it is available now.

Rob

Thanks...

This all probably equates to having to purchase another receiver and having another monthly charge. I'll have to check out the other forums about this. If so, then maybe I will just go ahead and get an OTA antenna.

jspicoli - the location of my TV (basement-southern most point) will probably cause me to have to go with a roof mounted antenna. I thought about trying the rabbit ears as being a cheap way, but I don't think they'll be very effective.

nelmr

01-04-06, 11:27 AM

I currently own this antenna:

RCA ANT121
http://www.kalyx.com/store/images/RCAANT121.jpg

It recieved all major networks fine in analog albeit all channels had ghosting problems.

With digital tv I am constantly having drop out problems. I am able to get all networks (PBS, NBC, ABC, CBS, WB, FOX) but again, I have trouble keeping the signal without auido/video drop outs.

MY STB is an RCA ATSC11.

I have been thinking about getting the following:

1) Terk HDTVi for UHF and VHF

2) Silver Senser and a UHF/VHF cominer to use with rabit ears to reciever channel 9.

Which of the above solutions would be best for me? I think I have a mulitpath probalem. I live within 7 miles north of all transmiters.

Take an example problem I have. I live 1 mile NNW from WB. Sometimes It comes in fine but most of the time I get constent dropouts regardless of whcih position the rotorswitch is in on the current RCA antenna.

jimp2244

01-04-06, 01:37 PM

I think you have a multipath problem too. From what I have seen, ghosting/multipath is much more detrimental to digital signals than analog. The easiest/cheapest thing to do would be to try to tune the analog UHF channels that you can receive (e.g. 19, 48, 64) and then adjust the antenna to minimize ghosting. You can move the antenna around, adjust the knob, and usually you can rotate or in some way adjust the UHF loop. Usually shortening the rabbit ears when tuning UHF helps as well. If you are able to minimize the ghosting in this way, then you could try again to tune the digital channels. They still may not work well, but it's worth a shot.

A few questions:

1. Where is your current antenna located? Is it upstairs, downstairs, by a window, and North, South, etc. end of the house?

2. Why the special set up for channel 9? I don't quite understand why you're doing this.

As for the Terk antenna, I have a very similar one that works farily well when placed by a window. This antenna is highly directional, as opposed to the one in your picture. However, with you being so close to the towers, an omnidirectional shouldn't have any trouble pulling in the signal. The only issue is getting rid of the multipath/ghost.

I have seen outdoor antennas advertised to minimize ghosting/multipath but I don't know how well they work. I have not seen indoor antennas that tout this as a feature but it would not surprise me.

Nitewatchman

01-04-06, 02:59 PM

I have been thinking about getting the following:

1) Terk HDTVi for UHF and VHF

2) Silver Senser and a UHF/VHF cominer to use with rabit ears to reciever channel 9.

Which of the above solutions would be best for me?

I don't see any difference in the "design" of either solution, seems like you can take your pick. Either should help out multipath situation on UHF, as they both have better directivity than the UHF loop on your current antenna. VHF wise, you aren't going to find a better "indoor" antenna than rabbit ears so for better VHF performance you'll need to use a "outdoor" antenna(but you can put it indoors if you can find the room for it) with multiple elements - You can adjust your rabbit ears for a bit better performance on any given channel by making the length of the "ears" a 1/2 wave dipole for that frequency -- in WCPO-DT's case(ABC HD) on channel 10 (180~186MHZ), you'd extend the ears so they are only 29" long from tip to tip. For more info on how to "get more out of rabbit ears", see here :

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html

Both solutions you mention are Log peroidic UHF and VHF dipole, I'm not sure there is any difference between the UHF section of the HDTVi and the Silver sensor, if there is, you might just have to try both to see which one works best.

I had thought the HDTVi was a "amplifed" antenna, but just did some searching and that doesn't seem to be the case. A preamp/amplfier would very likely be a very bad idea given your distance from the stations(strong signals can overload preamp, creating intermodulation distortion+spreading it all over the place), especially the "Star" tower (WSTR/WB)....

If you do decide to go with the silver sensor, while it is generally a good idea to use UHF antennas for UHF and VHF antennas for VHF, it's possible that it might do well enough for WCPO-DT(maybe even WCPO 9 analog, WLWT 12 analog and even possibly WLWT 5 analog) from your distance that you might not need a VHF antenna. Note: WCPO-DT transmits on VHF Channel 10, WCPO analog transmits on channel 9.

Also, jimp2244 is giving you good advice about moving the antenna around/adjusting it/etc. Finding a "sweet spot" for the antenna for good reception is often the most important thing, especially from indoors where various factors make getting good reception much more difficult than with an outdoor setup. Both our Analog(NTSC) and Digital(ATSC) systems were designed with the use with outdoor, directional receive antennas in mind, and that's what in nearly all cases works best. Using a Indoor antenna+expecting to get good reception is somewhat like trying to pull a semi with a Volkswagon bug .. It can work, but you can't necessarily count on it working very well ...

2. Why the special set up for channel 9? I don't quite understand why you're doing this.

There is nothing special about using a UHF antenna for UHF reception and VHF antenna for VHF reception. Silver sensor is a UHF only antenna design, but that does not mean it isn't possible in strong signal areas to be able to receive VHF signals off it as well, it just won't work very well on VHF.

However, with you being so close to the towers, an omnidirectional shouldn't have any trouble pulling in the signal. The only issue is getting rid of the multipath/ghost.

I have seen outdoor antennas advertised to minimize ghosting/multipath but I don't know how well they work. I have not seen indoor antennas that tout this as a feature but it would not surprise me.

Couple of comments:

#1). There is not necessarily a fundamental differences in design of "indoor" antenna or "outdoor" antenna. All "indoor" generally means is the antenna will fit on top of a set, and outdoor antenna will be "weatherproof", and will also usually be larger, have more gain, and in most cases better directivity than most "indoor" antennas. Where directivity is concerned, Silver sensor+UHF section on the HDTVi is a bit of an exception to this, as they use a typical "outdoor" antenna design(Log periodic), but since it's only for UHF frequencies it can be quite small, still quite directional, but it doesn't have a lot of signal gain.

#2). In order for a antenna to work well to receive signals on any given frequency, it is going to have to be of a particular size, as the lower the frequency, the longer the wavelength --- 1/2 wavelength dipoles are the fundamental "building blocks" of most well designed antennas, and TV receving antennas must work well over a wide range of frequencies. On UHF TV band, a 1/2 wavelenth dipole is in the range between only 7" and 1' long - compare to 8.5' long for VHF channel 2, and 26" long on VHF channel 13). Basically, the more 1/2 wavelength dipoles that an antenna has(for broadband yagi/Log perodic combinations of design -- often of varying lengths for different frequencies), the better directivity and gain the antenna can have, hopefully on all the frequencies(channels) you are going to be using it with.

#3). The more directivity an antenna has(given proper antenna orientation+placement), the less of a problem multipath becomes as better directivity means the antenna receives less signal(such as multipath echoes) from directions other than the direction the antenna is aimed. Therefore, when multipath is a problem, proper antenna aiming+orientation is a good idea, and an "omni-directional" antenna is most definitely NOT a good idea. Keep in mind most antennas have some sort of directivity - "rabbit ears", or dish clip on antennas aren't going to work very well(except to pick up multipath echos) if they are receiving the signals off the "side".

#4). Having an antenna indoors is likely to increase multipath problems in most circumstances. Not because the antenna being used is advertised as a "indoor" or "outdoor" antenna, but because everything nearby the antenna becomes somewhat "connected" to it(even YOU when you are standing there adjusting it).

#4). Generally speaking, one can say, well designed outdoor directional antennas
will have more gain and directivity than indoor antennas, because in most cases an outdoor antenna can be larger(and therefore have more 1/2 wavelentgh dipoles, elements, or Rods or folded dipoles/bowties/etc.) than a antenna made to fit on top of a TV. The larger an antenna is, the more gain+directivity it can have, and the better it can be designed to work well over a wide range of frequencies.

See section 1+2 at following link for more info on the basics of antenna design, and what makes for good, and bad antenna designs :

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennadex.html

From what I have seen, ghosting/multipath is much more detrimental to digital signals than analog.

You really can't underestimate the saying "your mileage may vary", as my experience has been the exact opposite.