As for why my huge antenna isn't on the roof, I'd love to put it up there, but family members trump laws saying it's allowed.

LOL! No need to justify your decision and the factors involved to us :)

One thing however -- If you can convince the family members, even a small antenna is usually going to work much better outdoors than a large one(or any antenna for that matter) indoors - where not only multipath is more of a problem, but where signals are attenuated generally by about -20db and where interference(especially on VHF) from household appliances/PC network gear/etc. is also often more of a problem.

At your distance, mounted outdoors, a small UHF Yagi(such as perhaps this one : http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=2625047 ), or a 4 bay bowtie would probably work very well, might even do well enough on VHF for you to pick up WCPO-DT without a VHF antenna. If not, you could use a VHF/UHF combiner and a antenna such as the "sensar" or CM3016 for the VHF side, or for that matter make up a 1/2 wavelentgh dipole out of some wire, which could be made quite invisable.


I've also been known to, on occasion, place my small directional antenna (simliar to the terk antenna mentioned here) outside in hopes of improving reception.


Did it help? Generally, I think even antennas designed for outdoor placement but for athestics rather than performance such as the winegard "sensar" (http://www.winegard.com/offair/sensar.htm#gs ) or SS-1000/2000 "sqauareshooter(http://www.winegard.com/offair/squareshooter.htm)
or CM3010 "Stealthtenna"( http://www.channelmaster.com/Pages/TVS/SpecialMktAnts.htm ) would probably work better in most cases than any antenna placed indoors, although I'd choose a small UHF yagi over any of these for the UHF portion of the antenna -- Again, Sensar or CM3010 should defintely work fine for VHF for you, especially outdoors.



Another good option might be to mount a silver sensor outdoors, I've heard of folks doing this with good results - I'm not sure about the weather proof part of it,l though -- You could even put it in a Raydome(spelling) to "hide" the antenna if you can find one ....

I also came upon a trick that uses two silver sensors (two of the terk UHF/VHF antennas should work as well) to attempt to reduce multipath.


Properly stacking antennas into a "array" certianly can work to improve directivity or gain. the antennas must be identical, aimed in the same direction, and with identical phasing on each balun(for antennas that need a balun) and exact equal lengths of coax used between the antenna+combiner(a hybrid 2 way splitter/combiner (ordinary 2 way splitter works fine). Some experimentation may be in order as far as how far apart the antennas are from each other, 3~4 feet is probably about right. A Horizontal stack should improve directivity moreso than a vertical stack, the latter which should produce an extra db or so(not much) of extra gain over a vertical stack, the latter which probably won't improve directivity. However, personally I think it is most effective with narrowband antennas over a narrow range of frequencies(such as for a horzintal stack of yagis for use on 2 Meter Ham band -- around or less than the width of a single 6MHZ TV channel).

Here is a more in depth, excellent article on the subject :

http://pages.cthome.net/fmdx/stackant.html

Just curious Jeff, would nelmr be any better off with the double bow tie Rat Shack has for UHF at least?

Hard to say, I'd think the RS DBT(which is also a fine UHF only antenna, but again might work well enough in strong signal area for WCPO-DT) would be a good option for him to try as well.

Thanks for the responses.

I live on the 1st story of a 2 story appartment buidling (there are 4 units in the building). I am on the south side of the building. My current antenna in ontop of my center channel bookshlef speaker making it about 5 or 6 feet above the floor. It is about 3 feet away from my 30" sony tv. It is 1 foot away from my reciever. I will play with placment if possible but the antenna has a built in cable, meaning I cannot connect a longer one to it. It also is very thin. The antenna is also facing toward me (north). What I mean by this is the rotorswitch is faceing me. The UHF loop is infront of the rabbit ears. The UHF loop cannot be turned to the left or right but rather adjusted to be up or to lie down ontop of the base of the antena.

Regarding using a silver sensor and a seperate VHF bunny ears does any one know what type of combiner I should use?

Preferabely what does Partsexpress.com (based in dayton, ohio) or Amazon.com offer that would be able to seperate the VHF from the rabit ears and combine it with the UHF from the Silver sensor? IF the HDTVi will do just about the same as the silver senser I may go with that to avoid the hassle of the silver senser and VHF solution.

Again, I'll play with placement more but my options are limited. I'll post a picture if possible to help with the problem.

I will play with placment if possible but the antenna has a built in cable, meaning I cannot connect a longer one to it.
.

Sure you can -- There are connectors for F-connectors available with 2 female sides(has what is on back of your TV, but two of them right together so you can plug antenna feed in one side, and extra cable in the other side to go to the TV) to them which will allow you to add cables. If nowhere else, you'll find them at Radio shack/walmart/etc. and they come as part of a "wall plate connector". As already mentioned, Finding a better spot to put the antenna can often be VERY beneficial.


Regarding using a silver sensor and a seperate VHF bunny ears does any one know what type of combiner I should use?
.

Channel Master Part # 0549 would be a good choice. Here's a couple of places that have them(or can order one for you - You can order via the net for the first one) :

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/joiners.htm

www.daytonwintronic.com


Preferabely what does Partsexpress.com (based in dayton, ohio) or Amazon.com offer that would be able to seperate the VHF from the rabit ears and combine it with the UHF from the Silver sensor?


Don't know, I do know the CM #0549 is a very good low cost VHF/UHF joiner, with low loss+high isolation between VHF+UHF. The CM#0549 will "seperate" the VHF from the UHF from your current antenna, just hook it up to the VHF side.

If it only has one lead from it, there's probably actually already a VHF/UHF combiner(probably 300 Ohm inputs) inside your current antenna which is probably a cause of some insertion loss -- If you don't want to use it for both VHF+UHF somewhere else/etc, and only will be using it for VHF after that point if you can take it apart and get rid of the combiner, that might not be a bad idea(you'll probably need to replace it with a matching transformer/balun, however to change the 300 ohm feed from the VHF rabbit ears to 75ohms for coax).

Also, again, it's possible Silver sensor might be all you need, even for VHF channels. You'd just have to try it first.



IF the HDTVi will do just about the same as the silver senser I may go with that to avoid the hassle of the silver senser and VHF solution.


That would probably be the simplest option for you to cover all the "bases". I can't say for sure however the UHF performance is the same of the HDTVi and the Silver sensor -- looks like it should be, but perhaps if you do a little searching on AVS you can find someone who has compared them.

You need to capture the transport stream using a PC card (FusionHDTV 3 can do this) and then get TSReader lite software to analyze the transport stream file and get the bitrate information.

I'm unable to do this with the ATI HDTV Wonder card. It will capture the native mpeg2, but it won't capture a transport stream. If I end up with on of the QAM tuner cards (fusion, etc.) then I'll give it a shot. Maybe in the mean time someone else out there can get the bitrate numbers?

Since I'm hardly ready to believe that WCPO-DT will magically fix its problems before the Super Bowl, I've been working on trying to get WKEF-DT to come in. I am able to get all of the major Dayton channels (WHIO, WKEF, WRGT, WDTN).

I can get the digital channels (WHIO-DT, WRGT-DT (weak), and WDTN-DT) but I CAN'T pull in WKEF-DT...

Seeing as how I can pull in all of the other Dayton stations, AND the analog side of WKEF, I can't figure out why I can't get WKEF-DT. Is their digital station much weaker? I get 0% on my "signal strength" meter (not sure exactly what it measures--- quality or actual strength). Every once in a while it will jump from 0% to 100% but only for an instant and I never get a picture or sound.

jimp- you hit it on the head.. wkef is alot weaker - 180kw vs 1000kwh for wdtn and whio.. my signal has been all over tonight with the wind and my billyrigged antenna :) - but it stillbeats the crap out of that stuff wcpo calls hd

WKEF-DT is coming in crystal clear here in Middletown.

hmmm

Looks like Plan B... call and e-mail WCPO in hopes that maybe somehow they'll realize that people actually do watch the digital channel and that they really need to fix this problem...

jimp - good luck.. we have tried here with no results, but the more the better - look back a few months to see the history on what we have done

oh i've been following the thread for a long time, just new at posting. Their studios are not far from where I work. Maybe one day I'll walk over there and fix it for them ;-)

lol - let us know and we can show up in force!

wkef is alot weaker - 180kw vs 1000kwh for wdtn and whio..

WKEF-DT 51 is at 138KW ERP and should be only about [update/correction] 8 db weaker than WDTN-DT 50 (1000KW ERP), both stations use a non-directional antenna pattern. WRGT-DT 30 uses directional antenna pattern, and if the antenna pattern info for their facility shown on FCC site actually matches the "real life" antenna pattern, it should sends less power towards Cincinnati area than WKEF-DT. Directly South of their tower for instance, WRGT-DT has .362 relative field strength shown for their antenna pattern on FCC site. Here's how we figure ERP being sent in that direction for directional transmitting antenna patterns :

Relative field strengh value squared x Max ERP(same as relative field value=1.000).

So, in WRGT's case at 180 degrees from their tower :

(.362 x .362) x 425,000 Watts = 55.7KW ERP sent towards the South, or about 3db less than what WKEF-DT sends in the same direction.


* - ERP = effective radiated power - this takes into account TPO(transmitter output power - which is MUCH less than ERP, otherwise we'd need a bunch more power plants just to run all the broadcast stations+cell phone towers/etc) and adds the transmitting antenna gain AND subtracts the feedline loss.

Update/some more thoughts :

Towards the SSE(roughly towards jimp2244's location I believe, at 160 degree bearing from WRGT-DT, antenna pattern for WRGT-DT on FCC site is .264 relative ield value = about 29.6 KW ERP, about 2db or so less than if he were directly south of their tower, and about 15db less than WDTN-DT's 1000KW ERP.

In any event, both you guys are well within their coverage area/signal contour, and the difference in power between say, WDTN-DT and WKEF-DT should be something along the lines of getting maybe 80dbu from WDTN-DT and ~73dbu from WKEF-DT, when you of course only need about 41dbu for reception on UHF - those are just round figures of course, and a rough estimate of signal strength outdoors with no significant terrain issues/etc. We have had members posting here which have received WKEF-DT just fine in the past from as far south as Florence, KY with antennas in their attic, and that was when they were sending a fraction of a db less power, 95KW ERP.

IF for some odd reason(such as indoor attenation of signal/etdc) it is signal strength that is an issue -- the difference between WKEF-DT 51 signal actually being ~3db stronger than WRGT-DT 30 - even though WRGT-DT can be received and WKEF-DT can't -- Could involve an issue with the receiving antenna not having quite as much gain on the higher UHF channels/frequencies(which is a common occurance with VHF/UHF combo antennas, and particurarly so those from Radio shack in the channels in the 50's and 60's), or the db or so per 100FT increased loss you get in coax on channel 51 as opposed to channel 30.

In any event, WPTD-DT 58 (PBS digital/HD Dayton) may offer yet another clue, since all the Dayton digitals transmit from the same antenna farm+~the same antenna height ... WPTD-DT is running 250KW ERP(about 6db less than WDTN-DT), with a non-directional antenna. If you are having problems with that one as well, that might be a clue that you aren't getting as much signal on the higher UHF channels as you should be. In addition to it being even harder to pull enough signal in on those high frequencies from indoors, and poor antenna performance on Hi-UHF frequencies, and add'l signal loss in your coax run, atteunation by any terrain that is in the way(and to a much lesser extent, even trees) could be additional signal attenuation issues involved which are more of a factor the higher the frequency(channel).

By the way, WKEF 22 analog does transmit from a different tower than the digital station, but that shouldn't have anything to do with it as they are all within a stone's throw of each other, more or less(WHIO's is farthest North, about a mile farther north than the others). WRGT-DT, WRGT, WBDT/WBDT-DT, and WKEF-DT all share the same tower -- It's the one at the Dayton antenna farm(which you can see from I-75) with the crossmember near top and 3 seperate "visiable" masts on top.

[end update]


(not sure exactly what it measures--- quality or actual strength). Every once in a while it will jump from 0% to 100% but only for an instant and I never get a picture or sound.


Most meters on the recievers out there are only measuring the signal quality to some exxtent and in most cases will tell you very little, if anything about signal strength. In most cases, A strong signal can be present, and you can get "0" on the meter if multipath or interference/intermod/etc. issues are too severe, and a relatively weak, but "clean" signal can produce high readings.

There are many issues which can cause reception difficulties, diagnosing exactly what the issue is with the poor signal diagnostic tools available on our receivers can be difficult, especially compared to analog TV where you see exactly what's going on right on the screen. Could be multipath causing your problem on 51(that's one of the most common causes of the meter "bouncing around syndrome"(, but it could be other issues as well, or some combination of issues - Interference/intermod and or receiver front-end performance/selectivity/sensitivity issues for example. If you're getting WDTN-DT fine on 50, since WKEF-DT 51 tower is a stone's throw away and the transmitting antennas are nearly at the same height and WKEF-DT is not running what I would call siginficantly less power than WDTN-DT/etc(WDTN was running a 125KW ERP STA until early this year if that helps as well) - given the stations are so nearby in frequency/etc, it might not be a bad guess to assume it shouldn't be all that likely that it is multipath or signal strength issue causing your problem for WKEF-DT ...

Update #2 :

You can add additional attenation into feedline, and see how much attenuation it takes before you drop below the necessary threshold for reception(~16db S/N) to get an idea of how much signal you are actually getting from the station you are receiving -- It's an inexpensive thing to try, You can add splitters(2 way splitter adds about 3.5db atteunation) or attenuators - One particularly good tool is this variable attenuator(up to -20db) from Radio shack :

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062022&cp=&kw=attenuator&parentPage=search

Adding attenuation can also help you diagnose(or solve) reception issues caused by a receiver-front end that is overloaded by strong signals -- While this shouldn't, and isn't likely to be an issue if you aren't using a preamp/amp, it is in some cases still possible, and it doesn't have to be a strong signal from a TV station that can cause overload/intermod problems -- If you are very near to a hi-power FM transmitter for example(and especially if you have to "aim" your antenna right through the nearby FM tower to aim at the TV stations), it is possible it can overload the receiver and create intermod(or cause "desense" in the tuner - more common with FM receivers, but basically it makes the tuner less sensitive, so your tuner can't "see" the weaker signals), on say, channel 51(but perhaps not channel 50), -- and perhaps especially so if you have a VHF antenna in line. Herringbone pattern is a sign of FM "interference" on analog TV stations.

If intermod/interference/front-end of receiver is being overloaded from FM band broadcast signals using a FM trap is a good idea. Actually, especially in this area I think using a FM trap, especially when VHF antenna is being used is almost allways a good idea. Radio shack has an inexpensive one(shown at link below - It's not the best one available, but should do the job in most circumstances when a preamp isn't being used), and Most preamps have these(better ones than this, generally) built in :

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062020&cp=&kw=fm+trap&parentPage=search

Keep in mind, that if you are using a preamp, adding extra attenuation AFTER the preamp isn't going to keep the preamp from overloading+creating intermod.

Another possible detrimental cause of reception issues involves poor front-end receiver design and/or certian channel relationships --- meaning you have local analog or digital TV stations operating on certian channels in relation to each other - which were "taboo" channels in the analog world for various reasons, but were considered OK for digital. They had to use the taboo channels for DTV to get everything to "fit", even though geneerally speaking the tuners use the same basic design and therefore in some cases are subject to the same problems even though ATSC can and does work with for example, 1st adjacent channel stations in the same market(co-located stations are best) whearas analog doesn't.

Although usually we are concerned with intermod being created by the front-end of receiver, having signals on certian channel relationships in some cases even creates intermod that is there, present "in the airwaves" on certian frequencies which we can't do anything about on the receiving end, hopefully not usually on any of the frequencies we are trying to receive signals on from local stations if FCC has done their job right --- which is difficult given they have to squeeze in both digital+analog stations until analog shut off time - there are really more stations than there is spectrum, currently -- It's a rather "complex"(but important issue when it comes to reception problems -- It's easy to just blame "multipath" or signal strength for everthing, whether or not that's the real issue involved) issue, and rather than go into it in more detail here you can find some excellent info on these issues and related subject in Charles Rhodes' TVtechnology articles dated 7/20/05, 4/18/05, 2/16/05, 1/19/05, 10/24/04, 8/18/04, 6/23/04 - all of which are avialable here(probably best to start with the article dated 6/23/04 and work your way forwards) :

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/digital_tv/index.shtml

Also, a certian amount of RF energy is going to occur on certian harmonic frequencies from a transmitter, espeically high powered ones - the latter isn't an issue for TV stations/frequencies, but, the 2nd harmonic of some broadcast band FM frequencies lies right in the range of Hi-VHF TV channels -- FCC plans around this, and generally doesn't put FM stations on certian frequencies where a TV station in that market would have a harmonic relationship, and engineers at FM stations use filters to decrease the spurious transmissions from their transmitters to within tolerable levels/regs, but there will still be some signal there on such a harmonic which still can sometimes be an issue for folks reciving Hi-VHF signals from other markets. It can especially be an issue if you are close to the FM transmitter+and having to aim "through it" to receive a desired hi-VHF station on that harmonic.

-----------------------

More than you wanted to know, I'm sure, but just in case there actually is anyone reading this -- If there is anything I'd like to point out more than anything else is that although it's an "easy" answer, blaming multipath, or the amount of power a station is running is not allways the "correct" answer or cause to any given reception problem. While they should be the most common problems, I think it likely things can get more dicey when you are in strong signal areas, and/or areas like this one where for example we have 36 analog and digital TV stations broadcasting from relatively close proximity to each other in Cincinnati+Dayton, and about twice as many FM stations in the area -- Many of those (TV+FM) being quite high powered --to say it in a very basic, but not so technically correct way : all of which I'd think could make it difficult for tuner to sort out "what is what", and which could lead to situations that make for difficult reception from some receiving locations ....

If we all had spectrum analyzers+ all knew how to use them, it would be much easier(not to mention possible) to diagnose the exact causes of reception issues for Digital TV. We don't really need them for analog for the most part, as the problems show up right on the screen in very specific ways : For example, herringbone=FM interference(but not necessarily from an "on-channel source"), Co-channel interference = horizontal "lines" or signal from another statiton breaking through the station that's supposed to be there, Intermod=seeing stations(usually in a pretty ugly fashion) on channels they aren't transmitting on and/or seeing something other than weak "on-channel" distant signals or just plain old clean snow on channels that should be just "clean snow"/etc/etc/etc ...

Right now at least to some extent we can use the analog signals to diagnose some reception issues with digital as well - usuing a TV with analog tuner that doesn't "blank the screen" with blue or black when a weak or "lousy" signal+instead shows "snow"(or ugly signals/stuff) on empty channels can be a good diagnostic tool as well ... While it often won't tell you anything too specific about digital TV reception, in some cases chances are good if these issues are there for analog reception, they very well may be imparing your DTV reception as well. Checking for intermod on "cable channels" with a "cable ready" tuner by using the antenna, but choosing "cable" instead of "off air" can help as well, especially when looking for intermod/overload issues when a preamp is being used.

I'll give an update on my placement experiment.

I moved my antenna to the window sill on the south wall of my livigin room. It is small enough to fit behind the blines. Rabbit ears are extened as far as they can within the window area. They are about 2.5 or 3 feet from tip to tip.

The UHF loop is not fully extended upward. It is about .5 or 1 inch above the base of the unit. The loop can lay flat on the base or extend up at a 90 degree angle. Speaking of degrees it is probably10 degrees or so.

I noticed that with such a position when setting the rotorswitch to the 10 o'clock positon I am able to recieve the follow stations with 60% or better "signal stregnth" (this seems to prevent 95% of all audio/video drop outs): 5 (60%), 9 (75%), 12 (85%), 48 (60%), 64 (85%). Channel 19 if it even comes in is around 20-40%. I have to move the rotor to 9 or 1 o'clock to get at best 60%. Channel 19 is the weakest channel given the position and UHF loop arrangment.

For Channels 5, 9, 12, and 64 I can find an optimum setting for best reception and the signal strength is at 90%+.

So far this is the best compromize I've found with my current antenna. I can set the rotor to 10 o'clock and not have to change anything for 5,9,12,48, and 64. If I want to watch 19 it will require more work. If I want to get any specific channel in better I just have to turn the rotor.

I hope to find a position and location for the antenna where once I set everthing I don't have to ever touch it again. Am I dreaming though? Could that be possible. Would the logoritmic designed antennas help me better? I've noticed that the channels still suffer from "bouncing bars" but they are not causing drop outs in a/v signals except for 19 and <5% of the time on the other channels.

Here is the broadcasting tower position relative to my appartment:

WXIX-DT 19.1 192°
WSTR-DT 64.1 162°
WLWT-DT 5.1 180°
WKRC-DT 12.1 171°
WCET-DT 48.1 180°
WCPO-DT 9.1 169°

IF I understand this right 5 and 48 are due south of me? 19 is 12° southwest and 64 is 18° southeast of me. All other channels are withing this -18 to +12° gap.

So whould this mean if I get a dircetional antenna like the silver sensor or HDTVi that I should aim it at the middle of this 30° span and should be able to get all the stations or would I need to aim it differently for certain channels. Again, my goal is to find an arrangement that reqires me not to have to mess with the antenna position, rabbit ears, UHF loop, or rotorswitch. Perhaps it isn't possible. But I am hopeful at the least.

Also, I wonder if since 19 is the only channel broadcasting slightly west of me is why it is having trouble when the others are mostly okay? Who knows.

I hope to find a position and location for the antenna where once I set everthing I don't have to ever touch it again. Am I dreaming though? Could that be possible.


Sure it's possible(I wouldn't have it any other way myself), and it may be easy to achieve with the "right" antenna/more directional antenna more capable to minimize multipath reflections --- even from indoors -- but on the other hand -- that's usually the sort of thing you get with a outdoor antenna, not from indoors.

And, there are no guarentees, it also *might* be more difficult to achieve with an indoor antenna setup and if you could even find someone willing to mess around with it for an indoor antenna setup in an apartment it may require a professional with the right tools(spectrum analyzer/etc), special filters(such as "jointennas") and multiple antennas aimed in slightly different directions to minimize multipath reflections for the different stations.

One problem with that however is that 5 of the area stations transmit between channel 29+35, and the jointennas are generally a bit more "wideband" than that. Of course, In the best of circumstances, you'd have a MATV(master antenna) system at your apartment building with antenna on the roof setup to feed dropout free digital/HD to the residents. Unfortunetly, MATV systems aren't as common as they used to be, and the ones that are out there often haven't been upgraded for digital reception yet and are setup in a frequency specific manner to receive only the analog local stations.


Would the logoritmic designed antennas help me better?


I'd say there's a very high likelyhood an antenna with more directivity(such as Log peroidic design, or the RS double bowtie)will help you out, possibly quite a bit.


IF I understand this right 5 and 48 are due south of me? 19 is 12° southwest and 64 is 18° southeast of me. All other channels are withing this -18 to +12° gap.


More or less yes -- except that Antennaweb takes magnetic deviation into account so folks can use a compass to aim antenna. For our area, Magnetic deviation is about +5 degrees, so WLWT/WCET's (5/48 analog, 35/34 digital - remaps to 5.x+48.x via PSIP) tower would actually be at about 175 degree heading from your location -- It's in Clifton on a hill just SSW of UC campus --

Just for fun --- a bit of trivia/history about WLWT/WCET tower -- the smaller tower next to the bigger one is the "old" WLWT tower, and is also the one shown in the opening of "WKRP In Cincinnati". The bigger one was built in the late 70's, WLWT+WCET analog+digital stations transmit fro it, as well as WGUC FM. They had to take the entire top 1/2 of the tower down in 2002 in order to strengthen it to support new WLWT-DT/WCET-DT transmitting antennas for digital, they also replaced their transmitter just after the 2002 HD Winter Olympics. During that time, in the Summer of 2002, WLWT 5/WCET 48 analog operated with reduced power from reduced height on temporary antennas, as did WLWT-DT digital when they were on the air(they were often off air) during that time.

WCET-DT came up with HD in late 2002, using a whopping 250watt solid state transmitter, producing 7.5KW ERP with thier antenna's gain -- I received it perfectly up here from 32 miles distant and a couple of us even detected the signals from their exciter before they put the transmitter on air. WLWT-DT was reportedly the first digital station to put a signal on the air anywhere near Cincinnati, in Feb 98 on the 50th aniversary of the analog station signing on permanently -- experimental station W8XCT, predecessor to WLWT 5 analog was the first Analog station to put signals on the air in this area(from carew tower, although I doubt few outside the crosley family had receivers/TV sets and were able to receive it) in the mid~late 30's.


So whould this mean if I get a dircetional antenna like the silver sensor or HDTVi that I should aim it at the middle of this 30° span and should be able to get all the stations or would I need to aim it differently for certain channels.


Hard to say if you'll be able to put it in one spot or might still need to adjust it for such and such station -- again, it should help, but there are no guarentees.

Cokebear might be on to something concerning the RS DBT (here : http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103058&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032204&parentPage=family )being a good choice for an antenna for you, it might be a better choice with stations at a 30 degree spread than silver sensor or HDTVi, but you'd just have to try and see what works better for your circumstance. Again, If you don't go with the HDTVi, I'd probably just try the silver sensor or DBT first before worrying about combining VHF/UHF+using a seperate VHF antenna as they might work just fine for VHF at your distance as well.

Anyway, how successful you will be in meeting your "goal" of "hands off the antenna" reception from indoors mostly probably depends upon how the multipath is bouncing around for any given station/frequency given the placement of your antenna as well as what is causing the multipath in the path between you and the towers.

You probably can't be quite that "scientific" about the aiming because of those multipath reflections(or sources of other "interference" which may be an issue), generally, placing directional antenna so it gets good results when it is aimed South would probably be a good thing, however. If you were 50 miles away, and using an outdoor, directional antenna you could be that precise about the aiming in most cases, because everything around+near your antenna(South facing windo should help with that somewhat), AND because multipath from nearby obstructions, a antenna that is misaimed a bit might produce better results -- You'll just have to experiment to find the best spot, as you are doing with your current antenna - Chances are good that a spot that's good for your current antenna would be good for the new one as well.


Also, I wonder if since 19 is the only channel broadcasting slightly west of me is why it is having trouble when the others are mostly okay? Who knows.

First off, Use the "frequency assignment" column at antennaweb to see what channels the digital stations are actually transmitting on, or see first post of this thread. For instance, Fox WXIX 19 analog transmits on Channel 19, but WXIX-DT Fox digital/HD transmits on channel 29.

Even though the tuner in your receiver is actually "tuning" to channel 29, It shows up as 19.1/19.2 on your receiver because information is sent(via something called PSIP) along with the digital signal so that your receiver REMAPS it to virtual channel 19.1+19.2, so it shows up "next to" analog 19, and, so that stations can keep their existing channel branding no matter what actual channel they end up broadcasting on after analog shut off. Of course, you can't "tune" to virtual channel 19.1/19.2 with your receiver until after the receiver is able to achieve a signal lock on WXIX-DT so it can receive the channel remapping info when it tunes to channel 29(usually via a "autoscan", but some receivers - I believe including the ATSC11 --- let you do this manually as well so you can adjust your antenna for a particular station). If it's not getting enough signal at the time of the "autoscan", obviously it doesn't know it's "supposed" to remap it to 19.x ....

Anyhow, since all the stations are within 30 degrees of your location, it's probably not so much the direction of WXIX "exclusively", as it is the way the multipath is "bouncing" from their tower location compared to the others, any nearby obstructions in their direction might be an issue related to that as well.

WPTO-DT 28(remaps to 14.x) also transmits off WXIX tower, actually with a little more power than WXIX-DT. Antennaweb info is incorrect concerning WPTO-DT's(DT is "digital" callsign designation) location, they have it in Oxford, where WPTO analog transmits. Since WPTO-DT is on 28, and Fox digital transmits on 29, coming from the same tower+nearly the same height and nearly the same frequency, it can tell you something -- Chances are good for instance that if multipath is a problem for WXIX-DT for you, it's likely to be a problem for WPTO-DT as well, but perhaps if one of them comes in with a certian antenna posistion, it can help you sort out what you need to do to receive the other one.

Hope this helps, let us know how it goes.

Before I forget, wanted to throw up a post and say thanks to William for throwing color bars up on KET5+6 occassionally. As, I don't have any other way to adjust/check Color decoder in my sets(all direct-view CRT's currently) for output from my ATSC receiver and/or 1080i/720p/etc. other than from test patterns from broadcast stations+going into SM and turning the RGB guns on individually/adusting Color decoder settings.

BTW, occasionally when I'm up that late, I've been enjoying some of the "older" films running on KET1, including last night ...

How does that RS double bowtie work? What is the reception graph/plot? Is it multi directional? Semi-directional? I am not familiar with that design as I have just recently started looking into antennas. For $15 it certainly doesn't seem like a bad idea.

Another update. Watching CSI tonight I didn't have one drop out on my current antenna set up. I may "live with" what I have for a while or keep playing with it. If channel 19's DTV still has trouble I will look into the double bowtie before considering the more expensive HDTVi or Silver Sensor. Since it's radio shack I can always return it if I don't like it.

How does that RS double bowtie work?


The same way all antennas work ;). Essentially+basically, without going into all the details ..... electromagnetic energy(photons specifically which are "squirted out" from the transmitting antenna) strike the antenna's surface and are transformed into current/signal which your tuner/receiver can use.

RS DBT uses 2 folded dipoles("tuned" for UHF reception) which are "phased" together(just like stacking antennas), as well as a reflector to improve directivity and gain. Using a array of 2 dipoles properly phased together with a reflector screen behind it increases gain+directivity substantially compared to a single Folded dipole, or to a greater extent a UHF loop or center fed 1/2 wave dipole(rabbit ears adusted to proper length for any given channel). Other examples of other antennas of the same design are CM4228 8 bay bowtie, antennasdirect DB8 and CM4221/DB4 4 Bay bowtie, and antennasdirect DB2(another 2 bay bowtie).


What is the reception graph/plot?


Here is a polar plot as well as a review and a note on replacing the 300ohm twinlead with a balun (note that if you don't have a soldering gun, just cutting off most of the twinlead(leave just enough going to the antenna so you'll have some extra "room" should you "mess up", or need to make new connections later)+twisting the wires together to the balun leads+taping up the "new" connections should likely be sufficient) :

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DoubleBow.html

and see gain plot for "antenna K" here:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

You'll also find info on the Silver sensor at those links, here's the polar plot for it+review:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/silver.html

If you notice from those plots(and I can't vouch for their accuracy), directivity should generally be a bit better for the DBT than is the case for the silver sensor(and maybe presumably the HDTVi, but who knows). However, if you look at the Gain charts, Silver sensor has a very flat response across the entire UHF band. This is common with Log perodic antennas.


Is it multi directional? Semi-directional? I am not familiar with that design as I have just recently started looking into antennas. For $15 it certainly doesn't seem like a bad idea.


It's quite directional. RS DBT or Silver sensor are simply the best UHF indoor antennas out there, they're even better than a number of "outdoor" antennas which are made to look "pretty" rather than to actually work well.


For $15 it certainly doesn't seem like a bad idea.


Yes, $15 is really just about the right price for an antenna such as Silver sensor, HDTVi or RS DBT, IMO, and .99 cents or less is about right for a UHF loop or the $4 Rs "outline" bowtie.

If it is not included however(and it probably isn't), you'll probably need to also pick up a balun(300Ohm->75ohm matching transformer) for it for a few bucks to match output from antenna to impedance of 75Ohm coax for your feedline, as it(as are most TV antennas) is 300ohm impedance. As noted in the link + my note above above, if possible it's Probably Best to attach 300ohm leads from the balun right to terminals on the antenna(or put it as close to antenna as possible), as 300ohm twinlead is very good about picking up interference(although it is very low loss, moreso than coax). If the DBT is still being sold attached to several feet or so of 300Ohm feedline(and from the picture at RS website that appears to still be the case), you'll probably want to cut most of that off. If you make that little "modification", You'll want a balun with leads like this :

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103912&cp=&kw=matching+transformer&parentPage=search

Or, you can attach the 300 ohm twinlead from the antenna with a balun made like this(the other side of the balun can plug right into the back of your receiver(or say the 75 input on CM#0549 VHF/UHF joiner), or to one of the "wall plate connectors" I mentioned earlier if you want to make a longer cable run, with coax going between the connector+the receiver ) If you do this, make sure to put a twist in the twinlead about every 1 foot, as it will pick up less "electrical" interference/etc that way(note that the balun in above link is probably a little better/lower loss than this one) :

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062054&cp=&kw=matching+transformer&parentPage=search

Another option would be to connect the 300 ohm twinlead from the RS DBT directly to a 300ohm UHF input on a VHF/UHF combiner that has such a 300 ohm input. RS may have something like that(believe it or not, even meijers has a A/V acessories rack with this sort of stuff -- baluns, VHF/UHF combiners/etc , I grow tired of searching RS site for links, but I recall at one time they may even have a VHF/UHF "seperator" with 300 ohm UHF connection+75Ohm(coax) VHF connection you could use "backwards" and hook up DBT to UHF side+your other antenna for the VHF rabbit ears to the VHF side. It will work just fine "backwards", but is likely to be higher loss+without as much isolation between VHF+UHF as is the case for CM#0549.

---------------------


I may "live with" what I have for a while or keep playing with it.
.

Ok, but YOU get to answer the next guy's question about this stuff ;) <just kidding> It's really simple stuff if you're used to using baluns and twinlead and coax and antennas/and VHF/UHF combiners/etc, but it certianly takes a lot of words to explain it in detail ....


If channel 19's DTV still has trouble I will look into the double bowtie before considering the more expensive HDTVi or Silver Sensor. Since it's radio shack I can always return it if I don't like it.

Given what you are currently using, I don't think you can really go wrong by spending $20~25 bucks or so for a DBT or Silver sensor+VHF/UHF combiner if necessary. It's going to be a better antenna+have better directivity+gain than the UHF loop, and I think it would likely be worthwhile for you in some way even not counting your WXIX-DT 29 "issues". And as you say you can return the DBT easily enough(might want to check to make sure your local RS has one in stock before heading over there, however). At one time, Best Buy had Silver Sensor for $20 or so, don't know if you can still find it somewhere for that price or not.

Here is the reply to an e-mail to WCPO that I sent yesterday.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As of today, I would say there is a 90% chance that it will be operational for the superbowl.

Check with me in a week and I will give you an update.

Joe

Joseph Martinelli Sr.
Director of Engineering
WCPO-TV WCPO-DT
1720 Gilbert Avenue
Cincinnati, Ohio 45202

Doesn't the link on the HDTVprimer website say the RS DBT is 12.5 inches in width compared to the DB2 (16 inches?). As such it suggestss getting the DB2 instead for better reception on channels below 30.

Looking at the comparision graphs the RS DBT appears to have more gain than the silver sensor so I guess the above statment about channels below 30 was put there in relation to the other antenna option right? Compared to my current antenna the RS DBT should preform better for channels 14-30? And still maybe get channel 9 VHF?

I submitted their feedback form as well. I know about the unresponsiveness in the past, but I have to think that the more volume of feedback about this they get, the better. If we can blitz them these next few days, hopefully that will get them on their horse and get this thing fixed soon! We were lucky enough to get CBS to televise the Bengals game this week but we may not be so lucky in the future.

Is everyone just filling out the feedback form or do we have some e-mail addresses to send this stuff to as well? The only e-mail address that I found that might carry some weight was the vice pres. and GM Bill Fee:

bfee at wcpo.com

Doesn't the link on the HDTVprimer website say the RS DBT is 12.5 inches in width compared to the DB2 (16 inches?). As such it suggestss getting the DB2 instead for better reception on channels below 30.


Here's the review and polar plot for the DB2:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DB2.html

Just look at the raw+net gain charts here (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html ) and compare curves for the DB2(L) to (K). According to the net gain chart(2nd one down the page), it Looks like the DB2 might be a better choice for a bit more gain, and especially for Hi-VHF.

However, you can't allways go by the numbers to say what would necessarily work best in any given situation, and in your case it's probably the case that directivity of the antenna on UHF is more important factor than how much gain the antenna has, anyway. Given your proximity to the towers, you should have "city grade" signals levels, probably should be well in excess of 40~60db or more over what you need for "perfect" DTV reception(although of course putting the antenna indoors attenuates the signals, generally by about 20db) and really shouldn't need much gain for any station, Including WCPO-DT. Nevertheless, None of those antennas are as good as "rabbit ears" on VHF, and it may turn out to be the case that you need the rabbit ears as well. You'll just have to try it and see.

The drawbacks for you for the DB2 is that it is more expensive than even the HDTVi, and according to the review on hdtvprimer it doesn't come with a stand as it is "designed" for mounting outdoors on a mast. You'll also need to purchase it via internet. See here:

http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB2_Indoor_antenna.html


Looking at the comparision graphs the RS DBT appears to have more gain than the silver sensor so I guess the above statment about channels below 30 was put there in relation to the other antenna option right? Compared to my current antenna the RS DBT should preform better for channels 14-30? And still maybe get channel 9 VHF?

The "raw gain" chart shows the DBT and DB2 having just about equal performance(to be expected since they are nearly the same design), and about 2db more gain than the Silver Sensor more or less across the band ... however, the 2nd chart, the "net gain" chart indicates something a bit different, and especially so on the lower channels for the DBT. Again, you need to take those numbers with a grain of salt, as the "net gain" chart is trying to take VSWR(voltage standing wave ratio)/impedance mismatches into account, and VSWR is going to be different depending upon nearby objects/etc. Difficult to predict exactly which of these 3 antennas would perform best in your specific circumstance. If I were to "guess" DB2 would probably be the "best" antenna for you out of the three, that is If you could find an easy way to mount it indoors.



Compared to my current antenna the RS DBT should preform better for channels 14-30? And still maybe get channel 9 VHF?

The DBT or any of the antennas we are discussing have much better gain+directivity on ALL UHF channels than your current UHF loop antenna. Item "J" on the chart "small Indoor loops" should fairly closely approxmimate the performan ce of your current UHF loop antenna, and here's a polar Plot :

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/Loop.html


And still maybe get channel 9 VHF?


Maybe, but you still may need to use rabbit ears along with VHF/UHF combiner for WCPO-DT 10, VHF, or analog 5/9/12 if your intrested in those. At bottom of the charts page on HDTV primer there are VHF charts as well. The DB2 is the only UHF antenna we are talking about that makes it on the chart. The UHF net gain chart seems to indicate the Silver Sensor may actually perform better on Hi-VHF than the DBT, but again, be sure to take those graphs with a grain of salt, you'll just have to try it and see ....

If you are going to go with the DBT or Silver sensor or DB2 "UHF antennas" I'd probably try it with the DBT (or db2 or Silver sensor) first, then add the VHF/UHF combiner+rabbit ears, later if necessary.

I submitted their feedback form as well. I know about the unresponsiveness in the past, but I have to think that the more volume of feedback about this they get, the better.


I agree about the "volume" of feedback part, but I don't think they have been "unresponsive".

Whether or not they've been honest with those of us which have been in contact with them over the past year and a half about the issue, or whether they have actually spent any time/effort in actually diagnosing+trying to fix the issue rather than trying to fix it by replacing expensive boxes on the rack without actually knowing what, exactly is going on is another story. Given what we do know(for more on what we do know -- especially see dr1394's posts on the issue in this thread from last winter or spring), since they've offered no real evidence that I have seen which indicates they actually know what is actually causing the problem, I can't say.

Hopefully it is the case they are just playing "games" and that they've actually known what the problem is all along but are just reluctant(for whatever reasons) to tell us about it, and or to provide fully accurate detailed information to us about what is causing the issue -- and hopefully, the new encoder, when they get it installed will "appear" to magically fix(and maybe it will fix the issue, although I don't see how it could be the main "cause", or the only "solution" to the problem) the downsampling to 1280x360 which is occuring in ABC HD signal chain. Some of us know better, as their current encoder never had this problem prior to their studio move, at 720p or 1080i, nor does it have a problem now that I can tell with the SD upconverts.

I can recall sometime in either 2001 or 2002 one of their people had told me they suffered a lightning stike at the studio which damaged their equipment(it was around the time ABC ran "Gladiator" in HD the first time), to the point their engineers had to tear apart their upconverter(they were sideconverting 720pfrom ABC to 1080i at the time) and do some work on it. It was quickly fixed, within a day or so. Hard to say, but it seems to be the case that things don't quite "work" like that down there these days.



Is everyone just filling out the feedback form or do we have some e-mail addresses to send this stuff to as well? The only e-mail address that I found that might carry some weight was the vice pres. and GM Bill Fee:

bfee at wcpo.com

If you've followed this thread(or previous Cincinnati threads before this one was started in 03 or so), you will find many posts from the past concerning info from WCPO personel, I can report in my case at least they usually didn't come as responses from the feedback form.

It's not usually proper to share private contact info here or post private communications, and emails/comments sent via "feedback forums" unfortuently often don't get that much attention at many stations. If say, 300 people call and complain about it on any given night, that might get their attention a little more, and would be more along the lines of what would happen if there were problems with the analog station.

Writing a old-fashioned letter can be a good solution as well, as it should go into their public file(the emails should too, but something "on paper" might be better), which is required by FCC and required to be available for inspection by anyone who wishes to see it.

Update: I did just notice they now have a email address up on the WCPO-DT website ( http://www.wcpo-dt.com/ ) for Tom Talley, If I recall correctly I believe he is their Chief Engineer and has been at WCPO a while.

Does anyone(especially those that also receive CBS HD from WHIO-DT Dayton) else every notice a slight greenish tint on WKRC-DT ? Especially As compared to say CBS HD from WHIO-DT or WKRC 12 analog ... I think it's there all the time, but seems to be most noticable during some HD programming+comparing it to CBS HD from WHIO-DT.

I've been seeing this for years now with several different displays/receivers, but it especially caught my notice again when I caught color bars up from WKRC-DT from CBS HD feed for a few seconds last weekend and managed to hit "freeze" on the remote in time so I could check the color decoder by turning RGB guns on individually, and noticed that compared to other sources I've checked it with, either the color bars didn't seem quite right, or the color decoders in all my sets have been doing something a little odd .....

I've noticed that now that WLWT is converting ALL of their broadcasts to DD 5.1 that the dialog for shows that were originally stereo is now going to strictly the L and R speakers, not the center channel as would normally be the case with true 5.1. This is especially annoying for their newscasts and the Today show, as it makes everything very hard to hear. I know they think they're doing us a favor, but it really has made things worse. My receiver at least had the good sense to use the center speaker when it was still coming in as 2.0.

Does anyone have any contacts at WLWT that might be able to change the settings on their new toy?

My receiver at least had the good sense to use the center speaker when it was still coming in as 2.0.
?

That's because It's using Prologic surround decoding from DD 2.0 sources.


Does anyone have any contacts at WLWT that might be able to change the settings on their new toy?

Not sure whether they'd be able to do that, currently or not. They might not be able to currently change between sending DD 2.0+DD 5.1 other than manually like WCPO-DT, as they might not have the equipment or have it set up in such a manner tyo do so to do so (for example, WDTN-DT NBC HD Dayton automatically switches between DD 2.0+DD 5.1 depending upon the sources).

Don't see a engineering address listed here as there used to be( :

http://www.channelcincinnati.com/station/index.html

But I can tell you a WLWT engineer does monitor this thread, he may not be allowed to post(some company policies prohibit that), but I can also tell you I've received emails/PM's from him. In the last one, he menitoned the new the DD 5.1 and was curious why noone had noticed it/posted about it yet.

Also, you could call them and asked to be transferred to engineering.

That's because It's using Prologic surround decoding from DD 2.0 sources.



Not sure whether they'd be able to do that, currently or not. They might not be able to currently change between sending DD 2.0+DD 5.1 other than manually like WCPO-DT, as they might not have the equipment or have it set up in such a manner tyo do so to do so (for example, WDTN-DT NBC HD Dayton automatically switches between DD 2.0+DD 5.1 depending upon the sources).




Jeff,

WLWT-DT was sending out 5.1 only during programming from NBC only up until a few days ago. They had it set to switch back to 2.0 automatically during network commercials and during local station breaks. This changed Tuesday when they went 5.1 full time even during the local news.

My opinion is that they've added a device somewhat like the Octimax (http://www.linearacoustic.com/octimax.htm) (which MNF Mixer posted (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=619066&highlight=octimax) about a few weeks ago). My hope is that it's just a simple misconfiguration that's causing the problem.

As microbob said, they were switching between DD 5.1 and 2.0 up until the other day, when they went 5.1 full time.

Jeff,

WLWT-DT was sending out 5.1 only during programming from NBC only up until a few days ago. They had it set to switch back to 2.0 automatically during network commercials and during local station breaks. This changed Tuesday when that went 5.1 full time even during the local news.

Ah, I see, thanks. Except for checking WLWT-DT for DD5.1 during SNL HD last Week, I Haven't had a chance to watch much TV/HD on the main HT setup here where I have DD 5.1 capability lately where I would have noticed that, just on HD setup in work/hobby room with analog 2 channel audio only(which is also why I hadn't noticed the DD 5.1 from them until one of their engineers told me about it). For that matter, if it's changed from WDTN-DT recently as well I wouldn't have noticed it either.


My hope is that it's just a simple misconfiguration that's causing the problem.


Hopefully its something along those lines, or perhaps also could involve certian metadata NBC is sending/etc. If you haven't seen it, you might be interested in checking out some of the excellent info+discussion concerning how NBC and it's affiliates handles(or can handle) DD 5.1 in this thread from several weeks ago :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=607558

Thanks for the link, Nitewatchman, a very informative thread. It's good to know that an engineer from WLWT keeps an eye out here. I'm thrilled that they've added 5.1 audio, even if it has introduced a few other minor issues.

Caught ER in 5.1 last night and man what a difference! Now if only we can get WKRC to get that going and WCPO to get their work done we'd have some great channels in Cincy.

Thanks WLWT keep up the good work!

done and done again...

i think we lucked out this year with whodey - all games for the bengals will be cbs - only the superbowl will be abc - i think this is the only weekend for abc games other than the superbowl

jim

I submitted their feedback form as well. I know about the unresponsiveness in the past, but I have to think that the more volume of feedback about this they get, the better. If we can blitz them these next few days, hopefully that will get them on their horse and get this thing fixed soon! We were lucky enough to get CBS to televise the Bengals game this week but we may not be so lucky in the future.

Is everyone just filling out the feedback form or do we have some e-mail addresses to send this stuff to as well? The only e-mail address that I found that might carry some weight was the vice pres. and GM Bill Fee:

bfee at wcpo.com

Poking around the WCPO website I found this page http://wcpo.com/helpdesk/contactus.html if you look you will see the choose recepiant and it will allow you to contact the GM or programming dept.

WCET-DT also has 5.1 audio set all the time even when most of the PBS schedule is only in 2.0. It drives my audio receiver crazy because most of the time the center channel is missing. I have to manually set it to pro logic mode in order to get decent audio. Its been like that for months. I hope they will fix it someday.

WCET-DT also has 5.1 audio set all the time even when most of the PBS schedule is only in 2.0. It drives my audio receiver crazy because most of the time the center channel is missing. I have to manually set it to pro logic mode in order to get decent audio. Its been like that for months. I hope they will fix it someday.

My receiver doesn't give me a Pro Logic choice when being fed 5.1. If it's 5.1 then my choices are 5.1 or stereo... :(

My receiver doesn't give me a Pro Logic choice when being fed 5.1. If it's 5.1 then my choices are 5.1 or stereo... :(

Well, the next option is to use analog audio.

-Captain Obvious

The e-mail address of the Station engineer is JMartinelli@wcpo.com. He responded back to me within 3 hours or so. I'll reply back to him next week and see if I get the same response.

nfl playoffs: wcpo looks like hell as always.. and wkef looks freakin fantastic today!!

nfl playoffs: wcpo looks like hell as always.. and wkef looks freakin fantastic today!!

It's night and day as usual. :)

I have a quick question...I am new to TWC and have one of their HD Dvr's (Scientific Atlanta Pioneer 8300 HD). Is there some trick to getting Dolby Digital sound? I can get the two channel but there's zilch when I change it to the Dolby setting. I have an optical connection for the audio.

Thanks.

I have a quick question...I am new to TWC and have one of their HD Dvr's (Scientific Atlanta Pioneer 8300 HD). Is there some trick to getting Dolby Digital sound? I can get the two channel but there's zilch when I change it to the Dolby setting. I have an optical connection for the audio.

Thanks.

I've got the same DVR as you. Is this true for all the HD channels that you get? Make sure the channel is actually broadcasting in DD 5.1. Not all of the network channels broadcast in DD 5.1. Most channels don't broadcast in DD 5.1 100% of the time.

I have a quick question...I am new to TWC and have one of their HD Dvr's (Scientific Atlanta Pioneer 8300 HD). Is there some trick to getting Dolby Digital sound? I can get the two channel but there's zilch when I change it to the Dolby setting. I have an optical connection for the audio.

Thanks.

I just read your post again and realized that we might have different DVR's. Mine's an Explorer, not a Pioneer. You might check out SA's website where you can view/print manuals. Also there are quite a few threads on AVS Forum for the various models/firmware types (Sara/Passport) that might help you.

I just read your post again and realized that we might have different DVR's. Mine's an Explorer, not a Pioneer. You might check out SA's website where you can view/print manuals. Also there are quite a few threads on AVS Forum for the various models/firmware types (Sara/Passport) that might help you.

I'm pretty sure they meant Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8300HD with the Pioneer Passport software.

Besides making sure you are watching DD5.1 programming you should also make sure you are not using the HDMI connection from the DVR to your HDTV. The HDMI connection will prevent DD5.1 from working on this box with this software.

I'm pretty sure they meant Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8300HD with the Pioneer Passport software.

Besides making sure you are watching DD5.1 programming you should also make sure you are not using the HDMI connection from the DVR to your HDTV. The HDMI connection will prevent DD5.1 from working on this box with this software.

I see. I didn't realize Pioneer was related to the name of the Passport software. Well, I'm glad you mentioned the issue with the HDMI connection with regards to preventing the DD 5.1 from being ouput from the DVR's digital jacks. I'm currently using component cables and was considering the purchase of a 4:1 HDMI switcher so I could send a digital signal direct to my display with an HDMI cable and avoid the digital-analog-digital conversion that currently takes place. Buying the 4:1 switcher would have been a waste of money for me and they aren't cheap! I'm currently using a 2:1 HDMI switcher. Thanks!

p.s. If a display were to have a 'digital out' jack and you ran an optical or coaxial cable from the display to the receiver, would that work?

I have a quick question...I am new to TWC and have one of their HD Dvr's (Scientific Atlanta Pioneer 8300 HD). Is there some trick to getting Dolby Digital sound? I can get the two channel but there's zilch when I change it to the Dolby setting. I have an optical connection for the audio.

Thanks.

Here's the thread for the SA 8300 HD DVR with Passport firmware...

SA 8300 HD DVR with Passport Firmware Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=453804&page=1&pp=30)

Thanks for the info guys. I am using component rather than HDMI and have checked all the channels. There's no sound at all when I set the option to Dobly Digital. I'll checkout the firmware thread.

Where are you finding a setting for Dolby Digital on the cable box? I have the same box and have never seen a setting in any of the menus for Dolby Digital. Are you referring to a setting on your receiver?

On the remote, you press the "settings" button...this brings you to a menu of basic choices. You then press the "A" button for additional options. There are options for aspect ratio, output (480i, 480p, 720p & 1080i), audio options, etc.

On the remote, you press the "settings" button...this brings you to a menu of basic choices. You then press the "A" button for additional options. There are options for aspect ratio, output (480i, 480p, 720p & 1080i), audio options, etc.
That's interesting. I haven't looked at that settings menu in about a month, so it must be a fairly recent addition, or it may not have made it to all the boxes yet.

Knowing Time Warner, they could have added the menu choice with absolutely no functionality behind it.

I'm about to switch from DISH to TWC. How does the picture quality, especially of the local networks, compare between the two? We have DISH currently and had TWC in our last house. I just don't remember cable looking so poor in our last house. I've been watching more local network shows, LOST in particular, and on our 46" Mitsubishi it looks pretty bad -- bad contrast and looking overly compressed like a webcast. One of my friends told me the local networks are uploaded to DISH as analog then converted ("enhanced") to rebroadcast in digital. They are truly "digital". I asked DISH about this and they said the are "digital quality" but couldn't expand upon what that meant.

Additionally, I've looked into upgrading to HD. The price is about the same -- TWC vs DN. However, through TWC I can get the HD DVR for only an additional $13/mo vs buying one through DISH for $798!

I've scheduled a HD DVR for the living room, a standard DVR for the family room and standard cable in the bedrooms all with the DIGI 1000 package for $60 with a 18 month promotion. Anything I should be aware of, change, etc?

Looking forward to HD and SD shows with, hopefully, an acceptable picture!

Are you referring to OTA HD or the locals that dish (non hd) broadcasts?

It seems to me that you are just watching Dish locals in SD - if thats the case on that 46" - it will look just as bad on TWC SD - now HD will be different.. it will be night and day - especially when wcpo gets their crap worked out

jim

I just don't remember cable looking so poor in our last house. I've been watching more local network shows, LOST in particular, and on our 46" Mitsubishi it looks pretty bad -- bad contrast and looking overly compressed like a webcast.

I'm pretty sure they meant Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8300HD with the Pioneer Passport software.

Besides making sure you are watching DD5.1 programming you should also make sure you are not using the HDMI connection from the DVR to your HDTV. The HDMI connection will prevent DD5.1 from working on this box with this software.


Not true it works on mine just fine. I use a HDMI cable and get DD5.1 sound out of the optical all the time that is is broadcast. Works fine on 905,919, 948? the HD channels for PBS anyway, 969 & 970.

I beleive this was a glitch that was fixed in a firmware upgrade.

I'm about to switch from DISH to TWC. How does the picture quality, especially of the local networks, compare between the two?

I made the same switch about 2 months ago because TW has more HD content at a better price. TW converted most of the channels to digital now so I don't notice any change in picture quality over the SD programming. As mentioned earlier, HD is good everywhere except WCPO-DT.

Dish just announced their HD package with more Zoom HD programming and local channels in HD rolling out in 1st half of 2006. I have not heard if Cincinnati is on the list of cities for HD or the time frame.

// Scott A

I made the same switch about 2 months ago because TW has more HD content at a better price. TW converted most of the channels to digital now so I don't notice any change in picture quality over the SD programming. As mentioned earlier, HD is good everywhere except WCPO-DT.

Dish just announced their HD package with more Zoom HD programming and local channels in HD rolling out in 1st half of 2006. I have not heard if Cincinnati is on the list of cities for HD or the time frame.

// Scott A

Have you been happy with the switch? Did you notice a difference in SD local quality between DISH and TWC? At the last house we had TWC w/ TiVo, moved, now have had DISH w/ DISH DVR.

Does TWC DVR equipment support TiVo style "name based recording"? DISH didn't support it at first and THAT is hard to give up!

I haven't made my mind up 100% to switch (more like 95%). I'm going to loose Sirius radio on every stereo, have to rewire the house, deal with a higher bill in 18 months (negotiate again I guess?). On the plus side, with DISH I would even think of spending $800 on a HD DVR!

Not true it works on mine just fine. I use a HDMI cable and get DD5.1 sound out of the optical all the time that is is broadcast. Works fine on 905,919, 948? the HD channels for PBS anyway, 969 & 970.

I beleive this was a glitch that was fixed in a firmware upgrade.

When did you get your box or when did you notice the firmware upgrade. Can you tell me what firmware version you are running? I have yet to see any change, but I haven't tried my HDMI cable since maybe mid fall.

Does TWC DVR equipment support TiVo style "name based recording"? DISH didn't support it at first and THAT is hard to give up!
The TWC DVRs (at least the 8300 or 8300HD) support name based recording and really do a pretty good job of it. I switched from TiVo to the 8300HD so I could record in HD and I've been pretty impressed with the box. It doesn't have quite the same great UI that TiVo does, but it does almost all the same things (except the home networking stuff, TiVoToGo and Suggestions - and I can't really say I miss any of those). There are some things I like better, like dual tuners, a guide that's easy to use, and the ability to program the DVR while watching a show.

When did you get your box or when did you notice the firmware upgrade. Can you tell me what firmware version you are running? I have yet to see any change, but I haven't tried my HDMI cable since maybe mid fall.

I'v had mine since Sept. and the last time I noticed an upgrade was prob. late Oct. but don't quote me on that i got that CRS syndrome. Passport Version 1.8.112 OS version 6.14.43.3sp. If I remember right though I got the HDMI cable about a month after the box and it has worked the entire time except that for a while I had to change the settings back to HDMI or 2CH and then back to 5.1. It would loose the settings or memory of them for sound. At any rate mine has worked for months.

Have you been happy with the switch? Did you notice a difference in SD local quality between DISH and TWC? At the last house we had TWC w/ TiVo, moved, now have had DISH w/ DISH DVR.

Does TWC DVR equipment support TiVo style "name based recording"? DISH didn't support it at first and THAT is hard to give up!

I haven't made my mind up 100% to switch (more like 95%). I'm going to loose Sirius radio on every stereo, have to rewire the house, deal with a higher bill in 18 months (negotiate again I guess?). On the plus side, with DISH I would even think of spending $800 on a HD DVR!

I've just had mine Dish setup done with 2 500 dishes on my roof.
As fas as SD content there wont much much difference. HD pic definitely looks a bit better on TW from what I remember.
With Dish, I got 2 HD receivers and 1 Tivo (w 2 room split). HD is free for 6 month. :), their HD package costs $10/m, for Voom I had to get a 2nd dish and I get like ~10 channels for $5/mo so, very reasonable for me. Voom Dish is also for International channels that I wlll get soon.
Their HDTV tuners have OTA HD tuner in them also, so I got my CM3020 on a 30' pole hooked up to it for about 15+HD local channels.

Ohh,.. for those of you that remember me talking about my OTA stuff.. here is some updates.
I had to put Authorization request with my assoc. on 19th of Dec. My antenna went up about a week after that "before" I head anything from them. (yeah, bad boy!) Well, yesturday they finally called me and say you cant put the antenna up. Needless to say I had a nice discussion with the guy telling him about that FCC regulation we all should know about. :) He did mention not to put the antenna up yet and was more worried about a 30' pole. Ehh.. dunno if I should take it temporary down when you cant even see the thing from the front of the house.

On the Charlie Chat last night the new Dish Network HD MPEG4 receiver deals were introduced. All future HD channels will be in MPEG4 so new receivers are necessary to receive them. The new 211 receiver (HD non-PVR) is available to existing customers for a $49 upgrade fee which includes an installation of the Dish 1000 dish. The HD 2-tuner PVR 622 is available for $299 for existing customers with a $200 rebate if you currently have a 921 or 942 (that's me) receiver, also including the Dish 1000 install. Dish added 5 new Voom channels (total of 15) along with ESPN2HD. HG and Food Network will be added in HD later this year along with several other unspecified channels. All of these "upgrade" deals will be leased receivers, so you will not own the receiver.

They also showed a map of cities of HD locals that will be added this year and it looked like Cincinnati and Cleveland were on the map. Charlie (Dish Network CEO) also mentioned that significantly viewed channels will also be making their way to those who qualify. For us, that means in some areas folks will be able to receive Dayton as well as Cincinnati locals off the satellite. I believe there is a PDF file somewhere on the FCC's website which details what channels are considered significantly viewed for each county in every state. I will try and locate the file and post it later.

Scott

30' pole!! Wow!! Did you end up with the CM 4221/3021? Work well?? You are allowed 12' above the peek of the roof - which I believe includes if you mount it to the house or near the house .. so even a ranch style house 30' will protect you from your evil hoa :) You are a corner lot right? I may drive by and check it out!! that 30 foot pole and 2 dishes must look cool as hell :)

jim



Ohh,.. for those of you that remember me talking about my OTA stuff.. here is some updates.
I had to put Authorization request with my assoc. on 19th of Dec. My antenna went up about a week after that "before" I head anything from them. (yeah, bad boy!) Well, yesturday they finally called me and say you cant put the antenna up. Needless to say I had a nice discussion with the guy telling him about that FCC regulation we all should know about. :) He did mention not to put the antenna up yet and was more worried about a 30' pole. Ehh.. dunno if I should take it temporary down when you cant even see the thing from the front of the house.

Have you been happy with the switch? Did you notice a difference in SD local quality between DISH and TWC? At the last house we had TWC w/ TiVo, moved, now have had DISH w/ DISH DVR.

Does TWC DVR equipment support TiVo style "name based recording"? DISH didn't support it at first and THAT is hard to give up!

I've been pretty happy with the switch. I have noticed no difference in the quality of SD shows although I don't think I have the trained eye that many on this thread have. My biggest problems have been dealing with the company and the fact I can no longer re-distribute a signal from my ReplayTV to the rest of the house.

I found the TW DVR to be better than the Dish DVR because you can record by name and all the options (specific times, channels, first-run only, etc.). Also, this is the first DVR I've owned that can record two channels at the same time which is big in my house. It seems a Y chromosome is needed to appreciate Battlestar Galactica! :)

// Scott A

30' pole!! Wow!! Did you end up with the CM 4221/3021? Work well?? You are allowed 12' above the peek of the roof - which I believe includes if you mount it to the house or near the house .. so even a ranch style house 30' will protect you from your evil hoa :) You are a corner lot right? I may drive by and check it out!! that 30 foot pole and 2 dishes must look cool as hell :)

jim

I got CM3020 with rotor. :)
I didnt extend the pole all the way, we kind of bent it (duh, need to get a new pole) a bit so I'd say about 20'-24' is about where it is.
The way we mounted is:
For the base I drilled into the walkout sidewall, about 2" deep. Still need to get some braces and more support for it thouh. Then we got 2 wall brackets and one in the mid wall the other one the highest point I could place it.
So far I get about 70-75 signal from most stations... I havent really done much testing and just hooked up the rotor wires the other day but that didnt seem to help, I need to get the compass out and actually set the whole thing up properly.

My house is 3rd from the model home, you might see like 10% of the antenna and 1 dish from the front, the other dish is goin to SE, so it's in the back of the roof.

Heck in the last 2 weeks I ran about a mile of cable in the basement. RG6+CAT6, about 3 runs to every room. Still need to run speaker cable and put up my HT properly. :)

Ohh, I wont have to take the antenna down :) THANKS FCC!
I notified them a week before putting it up, you dont need to get an approval requirement. :) Page.3 Q#4.
www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

Heck if they are going to be anal to me then I'll be highly considering putting a 39.37" dish for FTA signals :) lol, their 18" "regulation" dishes can bite me. :)

On the Charlie Chat last night the new Dish Network HD MPEG4 receiver deals were introduced. All future HD channels will be in MPEG4 so new receivers are necessary to receive them. The new 211 receiver (HD non-PVR) is available to existing customers for a $49 upgrade fee which includes an installation of the Dish 1000 dish. The HD 2-tuner PVR 622 is available for $299 for existing customers with a $200 rebate if you currently have a 921 or 942 (that's me) receiver, also including the Dish 1000 install. Dish added 5 new Voom channels (total of 15) along with ESPN2HD. HG and Food Network will be added in HD later this year along with several other unspecified channels. All of these "upgrade" deals will be leased receivers, so you will not own the receiver.

They also showed a map of cities of HD locals that will be added this year and it looked like Cincinnati and Cleveland were on the map. Charlie (Dish Network CEO) also mentioned that significantly viewed channels will also be making their way to those who qualify. For us, that means in some areas folks will be able to receive Dayton as well as Cincinnati locals off the satellite. I believe there is a PDF file somewhere on the FCC's website which details what channels are considered significantly viewed for each county in every state. I will try and locate the file and post it later.

Scott

Was any timeframe given to the rollout to Cincinnati of this service? I recently changed from Dish to TWC for the HD channels and pricing but I'm not above switching back. (The sound you hear in the background is my family groaning :D )

// Scott A

Was any timeframe given to the rollout to Cincinnati of this service? I recently changed from Dish to TWC for the HD channels and pricing but I'm not above switching back. (The sound you hear in the background is my family groaning :D )

// Scott A

From talking to my installer Dish LocalHD stuff will require a SE pointing dish (same as Voom).

This is from Dish website about CBS-HD Local:
NOTE: To take advantage of this High Definition signal, subscribers must have a second dish antenna pointed at the 61.5 or 148 satellite location and an HD receiver. A High Definition Television is also required.

....but I'm not above switching back. (The sound you hear in the background is my family groaning :D )
// Scott A

Funny, I did the whole "switch to DISH" 2 years ago (pre-HD need). It took a good 6 months to get use to the new channels and non-TiVo DVR. When I brought up switching back to TWC my wife rolled her eyes. Through she did say, "does that mean no stupid RF remotes and we get our Local on the 8's back?" Instant Weather on DISH is a good try but just does not work the same.

Funny thing.., Dish must have heard me talking about them cause they just called me to see if evetrything is OK. I talked to them about HD stuff, no news on LocalHD rollout time, but I did find out that they will be adding a few HD channels on Feb 1st. One of those is ESPN2. :)

dish is kickin directv's ass so far this year

Well, yesturday they finally called me and say you cant put the antenna up. Needless to say I had a nice discussion with the guy telling him about that FCC regulation we all should know about. :) He did mention not to put the antenna up yet and was more worried about a 30' pole.

rant on ...

Aargh .. Would it really be too much to ask for the HOA's, etc. to get their facts straight about OTARD+restrictions that are and aren't allowed(or an unreasonable delay in approval) BEFORE they place unreasonable or unlawful restrictions, or in general harass folks about their antennas+dishes ... If OTA TV/DTV/HD is to remain viable after analog shut off, we really need a good number of folks using it, and personally, without it I don't have much need for a TV at all. The way it's going, I wouldn't be surprised at all if a few years after analog shut off, the digitals are shut off as well, with the spectrum used for ch 2-51 auctioned so folks can pay for TV to their cell phones+other wireless services (I guess it MUST be better if you have to pay $30 a month for it, sigh ....)

rant off ...

Anyway ... Unless there is some sort of actual "bone-fide" potential safety concern with your current antenna placement+installation, and as long as you have it(mast+coax run(s)) properly grounded to NEC(although that isn't something that's covered by OTARD), and as long as you have the antenna no higher than 12' above the highest point of your roof, I don't think there should be any way they would be allowed(legally anyway) to make you take the antenna down or move it/etc. as from what you've told us it certianly sounds like you've done it right to me.


Heck in the last 2 weeks I ran about a mile of cable in the basement.


Especially if you do have a long coax run, when you go about straighting out the mast and getting the antenna/rotor set up for proper aiming -- If you are having some problems with weak signals from any of the Cincinnati or Dayton stations(for instance, one easy way to tell -- WBQC 38 analog really shouldn't be "snowy" from your location) -- Just a suggestion, but You might want to think about adding a good mast mount preamp to recover the feedline losses(or any losses from splitting/etc). I think you'd probably be OK, but probably not a good idea to get anything too "high gain", as you may be close enough that "overload" issues could be a potential issue to deal with. CM3039 or CM3041DSB might be good choices, looks like lowes is carrying the CM3041DSB, now(thought it used to be the 3039 they had) :

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=56326-000000693-3041DSB&lpage=none

And, don't forget to waterproof those outdoor connections! Just using "waterproof" F-connectors won't necessarily allways keep all the water out(and you don't want water getting inside your coax! - It'll ruin it, and evenually cause severe signal attenuation issues - starting with the higher frequncies(channels) and working their way down -- If you are using coax and see signal degradation on the higher UHF analogs(such as 54,64) when it rains then water is getting in somewhere it shouldn't be - 300 ohm twinlead will become more lossy when it's wet(and no way to keep it from getting wet really.

This stuff(coax seal) is only a couple of bucks(enough to waterproof about 10 outdoor connections) from RS and works great :

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062667&cp=&kw=coax+seal&parentPage=search

Thanks Nitewatchman, as always, loads of usefull info. :)

Antenna is currently below the roofline since the mast is a bit bent (5-7 degrees) so I dont want to raise it up even more to create a bigger angle. :( (Until I replace the mast)

Coax from the mast goest straight down so about 20' + about another 25' to splitter box. In there it is grounded and only 1 lead goes about another 20' to a TV. At first the antenna was pointed E and I picked up all those 15+ channels, however during the last Bengals game the wind caused a few breakups, so I finally plugged the rotor box and pointed antenna S-SW (my assumption of towers), signal didnt really improve much but it stabilized with no more signal loss.
Not sure if I am even getting channels like WB64... going to test it tonight though an then see if I still need to buy CM3041DSB and put it on the same time I am replacing the mast.

Thanks

At first the antenna was pointed E and I picked up all those 15+ channels,


If you're getting all 15 digital stations (There are 15 digital stations, but about 38 "channels" - i.e. "subchannels" or "services" -- from those 15 stations due to the multicasting they are doing) in Cincinnati/Dayton area, sounds like you probably won't need a preamp especially as it sounds like you're even getting enough signal if antenna was aimed east and you were able to receive stations from the SW and/or North(dayton) and W/NW(Oxford). I still think you'd probably be OK with a preamp if you find anything you think it might be able to help you out with -- but it is still possible preamp might not be such a great idea as far as "overload" and intermod issues go. And, If it works, no need to "fix it" ....

Also, 60' of coax run is a pretty short run, should only cause a couple of db loss on UHF -- a 2 way splitter(about 3.5db of loss) should cause more loss.


however during the last Bengals game the wind caused a few breakups, so I finally plugged the rotor box and pointed antenna S-SW (my assumption of towers), signal didnt really improve much but it stabilized with no more signal loss.


It usually is a good idea to aim the antenna somewhat at the towers<g> -- Not only because you will get much less signal with a misaimed antenna, but also because having antenna misaimed also increases multipath(greatly). I think from your location it would be generally SW for Cincinnati stations as you said, and North for Dayton, and WNW or so for WKOI-DT(TBN) or WPTO 14 analog, Oxford - note WPTO digital/HD transmits from WXIX tower in Cincinnati.

In a little more detail ---- aiming the antenna that far off target is not only going to reduce actual signal strength(directional antennas receive much more signal off the "front" of the antenna than off the side or back of it), but also increase multipath -- There are two "general" types of "multipath: #1). "static" multipath/reflections caused by say, a nearby water tower, and "dynamic" multipath conditions which can be caused, or "changed" by say, a aircraft flying over your house, or wind blowing tree leaves around. Generally, our receivers+the ATSC 8VSB OTA digital TV system we are using are better at handling static multipath conditions than dynamic, but in most cases using a antenna with good directivity, as well as aiming directional antenna AT(or nearly so) the transmitting tower sigificantly reduces multipath issues. There are some cases however when much of a "direct" signal path isn't present due to obstructions, and in some extreme cases when the strongest "reflected" bit of signal may be the best one to use, and thus require a bit of "misaiming" the antenna so to speak ...

Also, Keep in mind, the meter on your receiver is likely just telling you a little bit about signal quality(probably measured as bit rate errors for the datastream, and not the actual RF signal or something similiar), and little about actual signal strength. In most cases, fairly weak but generally "clean" signals can produce high readings on the meter, and strong but multipath or interference laden signals can produce no, little or "erratic" meter readings.


Not sure if I am even getting channels like WB64 Not sure if I am even getting channels like WB64... going to test it tonight though


WB64 digital/HD(WSTR-DT) transmits on channel 33 and should remap to virtual channel 64.1 on your receiver. Many WB programs are sent in HD+DD 5.1. The Dayton WB HD/digital affiliate(WBDT-DT) transmits on channel 18 and should remap to 26.1.

Let us know how it goes --BTW, good idea to fix that mast+the "tilt", It's usually a good idea for the antenna to be level (in any direction you're going to be aiming it anyway) ....

ScottA,

No timeframe was given on the Cincy HD locals rollout except that it would be sometime this year. This is Charlie talking, so one never knows. The Voom channels are actually now on the 129 satellite as well as the 61.5 (the SE pointing one). The Dish 1000 dish handles the 110, 119, and 129 sats and that is the dish Echostar is planning on using from this time forward (subject to change of course). I would think the local HD rollouts would occur on one of the 3 sats on the Dish 1000.

Scott

Hello,

I am new to this forum. I live in N KY and have Insight Cable. The main reason is that they seem to have the best deal on HD with a DVR(no upfront costs), and cable modems for internet. I may switch to satellite when they get local channels and more HD content.

I have noticed on various Monday Night Football and recent College football bowl games in the last few weeks that the quality of the ABC HD broadcast is not as good as CBS, NBC and FOX which are all great. Is this a local ABC issue due to the way that or is it sent to Insight? Is this lower quality also seen on the OTA feed as well?

Thanks for your help.

Hello,

I am new to this forum. I live in N KY and have Insight Cable. The main reason is that they seem to have the best deal on HD with a DVR(no upfront costs), and cable modems for internet. I may switch to satellite when they get local channels and more HD content.

I have noticed on various Monday Night Football and recent College football bowl games in the last few weeks that the quality of the ABC HD broadcast is not as good as CBS, NBC and FOX which are all great. Is this a local ABC issue due to the way that or is it sent to Insight? Is this lower quality also seen on the OTA feed as well?

Thanks for your help.
Welcome to the forum Alexky!

This is because of a local issue with WCPO in Cincinnati. Their HD broadcasts all exhibit what we call the "jaggies," but it is most noticeable on football. They have an upgrade planned for their encoder in the first quarter of 2006 (which they have indicated is likely to happen before the Super Bowl).

Hopefully this will actually fix the problem. WCPO seems to think it will, but based on some other evidence, some of the folks on this forum aren't so sure.

Thanks for the quick response. I love being able to speak to people that know what the hell they are talking about. I called Insight and they are clueless about the problem, which is about what I expect from them.

The sidelines were driving me crazy when you would see the diagonal lines running throught them.

I was really sorry to see that ABC has the Super Bowl this year for this very problem. Let's hope that the get the problem fixed before the Super Bowl.

Regards,

Alexky

time will tell on wcpo.. they have been prommising a fix for over a year now.. in the meantime.. wkef out of dayton continues to rock on!!


jim

Welcome to the forum Alexky!

This is because of a local issue with WCPO in Cincinnati. Their HD broadcasts all exhibit what we call the "jaggies," but it is most noticeable on football. They have an upgrade planned for their encoder in the first quarter of 2006 (which they have indicated is likely to happen before the Super Bowl).

Hopefully this will actually fix the problem. WCPO seems to think it will, but based on some other evidence, some of the folks on this forum aren't so sure.

What evidence is there which supports a conclusion that WCPO-DT's current encoder is what is actually causing the issue and that replacing that encoder is "the fix", or the only "fix" to the problem?

Unfortunetly, the way this thing has went so far, from what I can tell -- even after they get it fixed(which hopefully will be soon), I don't think we'll ever really know what actually "fixed it" or what the actual cause of the problem was ....

wkef out of dayton continues to rock on!!


Yes, I agree that WKEF-DT has allways been excellent HD PQ wise and has been excellent for "glitch free" ABC HD/DD 5.1 for the past several months.

Nitewatchman, I'm in agreement with you. Everything that I have seen leads me to believe that something other than the encoder is at fault.

That said, I'm an eternal optimist, so I have faith that someone at WCPO knows what they're talking about. I just can't imagine that their engineering department could push through a 6 figure purchase without thoroughly chasing out the problem. I'm going with innocent until proven guilty on this one. Hopefully we'll know which way it goes sooner rather than later.

Nitewatchman, I'm in agreement with you. Everything that I have seen leads me to believe that something other than the encoder is at fault.

That said, I'm an eternal optimist, so I have faith that someone at WCPO knows what they're talking about. I just can't imagine that their engineering department could push through a 6 figure purchase without thoroughly chasing out the problem.


I'm sure a new MPEG2/HD encoder is a good idea(and I don't think it should be a 6 figure item these days, should be more like 5 figures nowadays I believe). I'm also sure there are good reasons for a new encoder that have nothing to do with the downsampling to 1280x360 that is occuring in their signal chain for ABC HD, and I certianly don't "oppose" them getting a new encoder. For example, for instance It should be more efficent, and should allow for fewer compression artifacts(especially with their weather tracker multicast) than which is the case with their current encoder, which is an "early" HD encoder, and the same encoder they've been using since coming on the air in 98.

And, perhaps the encoder is an "issue" involved in some way and it will it "fix the issue" with the "jaggies" (although I personally don't see how, especially as they haven't told us how that will be the case), but where is the evidence for this, including from WCPO? WHY is it, exactly they think a new encoder will "fix" the problem?

And, that doesn't explain why their current encoder didn't have this issue with the "jaggies" prior to their studio move. That includes when it was sending 1080i prior to Spring 2003, and from Sping 2003 to Summer 2004 when it was sending 720p, but from their old studio location. According to their Director of Engineering(Mr. Martinelli), in a message I received from him when we were discussing the issue early last year, they switched from sending 1080i to sending 720p in Spring 2003 -- So, we had MNF HD from 2003~2004 season for instance, and noone noticed, or mentioned a problem with the "jaggies" here. That didn't happen until Summer 2004, just after the move of their studio location. Nor does it explain why it is only a problem NOW during ABC HD, and not during upconverts(which are 720p before they reach the encoder).

So if the encoder is causing the problem, WHY was the current encoder not having this issue(that anyone "noticed" at least) BEFORE the studio move in 2004? WHY in one later response from Mr. Martinelli which was posted here by another poster, did he explain that it was because they switched from 1080i to 720p, and yet, in a message I received from Mr. Martinelli he said they switched from 1080i to 720p in Spring 2003? BTW, I also knew they switched to 720p at the time in spring 2003, as I've been watching HD from the local stations since 2001, and at the time, I was asked to see If I noticed any problems with their switch on my equipment.

I think one reason why it is good to know the actual causes of these things is because when/if the issue ever happens again elsewhere, it has been the case with problem issues in the past we've been able to pass info along to other stations and hopefully be of use.

As for them knowing what they are talking about, I'm sure they are "qualified" AND know their jobs and what they are doing/etc and it's certianly not my place to suggest otherwise -- but I don't think they have told us much about what is going on with this issue. And, there may be good reasons for that, but we don't know what they are. For example, again, what relevant details, exactly, have they provided that explain the cause of the issue ?


I'm going with innocent until proven guilty on this one.


I don't think that is what this is about. Instead, I think it's about "troubleshooting" an issue, trying to find out what is going on, and trying to help THEM out to solve the issue. In the past, it has turned out to be the case this sort of thing has been beneficial. But in this case, So far, I've not seen any indication that they've even paid the slightest bit of attention to our reports(and some of us have put considerable time+effort in sending them reports/info/etc). And, again I don't know if we'll ever know. I do know, that given what we do know, I don't think a response of "a new encoder will fix the issue" is sufficent to explain what is going on.


Hopefully we'll know which way it goes sooner rather than later.

How will we know? We know what the problem is(something in their signal chain is downsampling ABC HD to 1280x360 "effective" resolution, but yes it's 1280x720 being spit out of the encoder), but, if WCPO engineers know that yet(even though we've told them about it), in their comments I've seen they certianly haven't indicated they know this. And, We will know when it is fixed, but, again the way this has went so far I don't think we'll ever know actually HOW it was fixed, or the actual cause of it.

For instance, #1).months after numerous folks here sent reports listing our equipment who were/are seeing the issue on to WCPO, and months after a MPEGII expert whom analyzed their datastream during ABC HD with a reference software decoder and found that something in their signal chain for ABC HD was downsampling to 1280x360 and that the issue was not an issue which was receiver/decoder chipset specific as 1280x360 "unique" pixels(instead of the 1280x720 that should be there) is ALL that's there in their datastream during ABC HD, and #3). months after I passed all that info along that info to WCPO DOE, I was *still* seeing info posted from that same fellow at WCPO here which indicated they thought it was a "chipset specific" issue, effecting only some decoders. Also, after passing that along about what was found about the downsampling to 1280x360, about all they would say in response was "our encoder is sending 720p", even after I explained I knew that, yes it's spitting out 1280x720p, but all the "unique pixel data" is NOT there, only 1280x360 effective resolution during ABC HD ....

--------------------

I understand you are in agreement, etc - and I'm not addressing the points you mention in order to spark up a debate/etc --- so why am I bringing up all these questions and why am I going through all this, again?

#1). To point out that there are more questions than answers, and my guess is, that will remain the case after the new encoder is installed, and after the problem is fixed.

#2) because I personally spent a considerable amount of time trying to address this issue, including in a effort to try to help THEM(WCPO) out. And yet so far, about all I(or anyone else as far as I can tell) ever got back from them is the run around, IMO.

Well, I can tell you that ordinary TV viewers are seeing these "jaggies" and its not just us. Some of my brothers bought new HDTVs over winter break and all have made comments on how ABC looks like Sh!t. I told them about the issue and recommended they contact WCPO. As far as WCPO, I think they are telling us its a new encoder, but from has been mentioned in the past, it may be an entire new digital rack. So, if the entire rack is replaced, I think the "jaggies" would go away because whatever piece of equipment isn't hooked up right would be replaced/eliminated. Hopefully it works out, but I say get a Dayton antenna for the SuperBowl just in case.

Mistake Corrected.

As far as WCPO, I think they are telling us its a new encoder, but from has been mentioned in the past, it may be an entire new digital rack. ABC was switching to a system similar to FOX splicer system. If this is incorrect, let me know. So, if the entire rack is replaced, I think the "jaggies" would go away because whatever piece of equipment isn't hooked up right would be replaced/eliminated.

I haven't heard that ABC is switching to a "splicer system" like Fox uses -[update] : Of course, the Fox splicer allows the Network programming to "bypass" the local encoder entirely -- [end update]... I did at one time speculate that it *might* be possible that at one point they may have been thinking about it, as I'd read an article about ABC network op folks being very interested in what Fox was doing. I haven't heard anything more about it than that however.

As for the new "digital rack" from ABC :

: #1). an engineer at a ABC affiiliate in CA said early this year[update - oops! I meant early LAST year[end update] that ABC was upgrading the equipment at their affiliates which is used for distribution(sat receivers/etc) of the ABC feeds(I think that probably involved the SD feed as well as the HD feed but not sure), and that they were starting on the west coast and working their way east, and that he thought they probably should make it to this area sometime in the latter half of 2005.

#2). In May of 2005, WCPO-DT DOE told me they were getting a "all new" rack of equipment from ABC which was to be entirely digital( for instance ABC SD feed may have been analog before this, I don't know however) scheduled to be installed in August or september of 2005.

#3). In august of september of 2005, WKEF(Dayton) engineers had said at that time a new "all digital" rack of equipment from ABC was being installed at WKEF. That was also the time when WKEF/WRGT engineers added DD 5.1 capability to WKEF. At the time, one evening around 10pm when a lot of people were complaining on Dayton thread about issues occuring from WKEF, I had called WKEF chief engineer at home on his cell phone to discuss various problem issues they were having (long standing video freezes issue, newer audio issues/etc), and he didn't say anything about ABC moving to a "splicer system". In fact, while we were discussing some of the issues he was having with DD 5.1 and ABC, he did mention how much he liked the Fox Splicer setup for WRGT-DT, and specifically said they don't even have to "touch it"(WRGT-DT ) during prime time ... BTW, within a week or so of that time, all of the issues WKEF was having(including the long standing "video freezes issue) went away ...

#4). So, given #2+#3 above(and perhaps the addition of DD 5.1 might be some sort of clue as well), although I don't know for sure, I assume that WCPO has probably already gotten the equipment upgrades (the "all digital" rack of equipment) from ABC ... Unless perhaps something didn't work out with the schedule for them and it was postponed to a later date.

I received a reply to my e-mail the other day and thought I'd share it with you.

"We are still on target to have our encoder replaced by the Superbowl.
I want it as bad as you do. So let's cross our fingers and hope that all of the equipment arrives here before February 1st. It will dramatically improve the quality of the video of the game. It is the best money can buy.

Go Bengals,

Joe

Joseph Martinelli Sr.
Director of Engineering
WCPO-TV WCPO-DT
1720 Gilbert Avenue
Cincinnati, Ohio 45202
Voice 513-852-4007
Fax 513-852-4097 "

While this doesn't address the problem specifically it does give us somewhat of a timeframe they are looking at to get the equipment in place. Lets all keep our fingers crossed they can "GIT-R-DONE" by Superbowl time.

WCPO-DT certainly looks 100% better tonight. Jaggies are finally fixed eh?

[edit] Watching via TWC on a Pace box fwiw.

I looks fixed to me too!!! Just in time for the BCS bowls....Oh Wait. :) I am very happy it is fixed!!!!

DirecTV HR10-250
Samsung DLP HLR-5063w

I looks fixed to me too!!! Just in time for the BCS bowls....Oh Wait. :) I am very happy it is fixed!!!!

DirecTV HR10-250
Samsung DLP HLR-5063w

I noticed that it's not in DD 5.1 though. At first I thought it was my receiver setting but when I switch to WKEF-DT it's in 5.1.

Called home and from a quick check, the ABC bug is now round! Problem fixed?! As far as 5.1, perhaps its not hooked up correctly yet? Maybe an email to WCPO will clear this up?

after comparing wkef and wcpo during invasion it appears the jaggies are gone!! however, I would like to confirm it on a "brighter" show.. ie.. the opening to desparate housewives - the jaggies hit it hard.. but - with that said - wcpo and wkef appear to be identical.. the jaggies appear to be gone - but I for one am not ready to celebrate yet... the real test is the nba or nfl.. but I think they are done with nfl untill the superbowl...

jim

Yes, after 1.5 years, looks like the downsampling to 1280x360 at WCPO is no longer occuring -- the "jaggies" are now gone from WCPO-DT. All I ever had to do was look at ABC bug during ABC HD feed for a couple of seconds in comparison to it from WKEF-DT. There is no longer staircase pattern visable at the top of the bug from WCPO-DT, it's now perfectly smooth, as it should be ....

LOL guess I should have written them sooner.

Don't forget to write them back and thank them for finally fixing the issue ....

One problem down, 2 to go. Now I will sit and hope that WCET and WLW HD stations figure out a way to use the center front channel in DD5.1 :mad:

On the National HD Stations Sticky, why hasn't either Cincinnait or Dayton been updated. I have posted several times now. Anybody check to see if DD5.1 on WCPO was on? I would think it will eventually switch on automatically. Now if we can get WKRC to go DD5.1(hint, hint!) and WBQC in HD atleast(nice with DD5.1), Cincinnati would have the most HD stations!

Lost was not in 5.1 tonight. The jaggies are gone though :)

So do we still have to call to get it turned on?

Huh, I decided to watch WKEF-DT last night because the 8pm Lost episode wasn't going to be on WCPO-DT. I'll have to check out the Crumbs tonight to see how it looks. The automatic DD5.1 switching could be next on their hit parade.

email - done!
=============
To:
gruschman@wcpo.com
bfee@wcpo.com
ttalley@wcpo.com

Gentleman,

After 1.5 plus years, I can say that last night, the "jaggies" finally went away!

I will be the first to admit, I had abandoned hope for the problem to get fixed and have been watching WKEF out of Dayton for my ABC programming - every now and then I would check the WCPO-DT feed and would cringe as the "jaggies" were plain as day - especially during football. Last night I was out and when I got home the email and message boards lit up with people saying the jaggies were gone!! Sure enough, after Tivoing a few minutes of Invasion on both WCPO and WKEF - low and behold both broadcasts were identical!!

Thank you for restoring true HD to ABC in Cincinnati. Now if you can just get Dolby Digital 5.1 to work reliably... :)

Jim Tressler, OTA viewer Hamilton Township

I wonder if the resolution to WCPO's issues were a new encoder or a fix of the existing one. In the e-mail that was posted yesterday, it sounds like they were waiting till early February to get some equipment in. This leads me to believe that they got the old encoder working correctly. Has anyone else heard what they have done? I e-mail the station engineer and al he wrote back was that he was glad the we are happy that it is fixed.

So how did it look tonight? DD5.1?

WCPO looked great, no DD5.1 on the minute or so of Crumbs that I checked.

My OTA antenna:

Ok, the Association called me and they said that they will allow me to place antenna "on the roof" if it will NOT be visible from the front of the house (there goes line of sight!). They are coming out tomorrow to see where it would go. They dont know yet it's already UP on the mast while barely visible from the front.
Any suggestions? I do smell legal stuff coming up already.

Looks like they are trying to use:
Q: What restrictions prevent a viewer from receiving an acceptable quality signal? Can a homeowners association or other restricting entity establish enforceable preferences for antenna locations?

A: For antennas designed to receive analog signals, such as TVBS, a requirement that an antenna be located where reception would be impossible or substantially degraded is prohibited by the rule. However, a regulation requiring that antennas be placed where they are not visible from the street would be permissible if this placement does not prevent reception of an acceptable quality signal or impose unreasonable expense or delay. For example, if installing an antenna in the rear of the house costs significantly more than installation on the side of the house, then such a requirement would be prohibited. If, however, installation in the rear of the house does not impose unreasonable expense or delay or preclude reception of an acceptable quality signal, then the restriction is permissible and the viewer must comply.

The acceptable quality signal standard is different for devices designed to receive digital signals, such as DBS antennas, digital broadband radio service antennas, digital television ("DTV") antennas, and digital fixed wireless antennas. For a digital antenna to receive or transmit an acceptable quality signal, the antenna must be installed where it has an unobstructed, direct view of the satellite or other device from which signals are received or to which signals are to be transmitted. Unlike analog antennas, digital antennas, even in the presence of sufficient over-the-air signal strength, will at times provide no picture or sound unless they are placed and oriented properly.

Here is the quick snippet from the sub-div rule book (note:this is ALL that talks about antennas):
7.3.6 Radio and Television Antennae and Satellite Dishes: All television and radio antennae, including CB radio antennae, must be enclosed within the residence located on the Lot. All sattelite dishes are prohibited, unless such satellite dish has a diameter of 18 inches or less and screened from the roadway view.

Just print off all the material on the FCC website and tell them to have fun proving that you can't put it where you will receive a steady digital signal.

Any suggestions? I do smell legal stuff coming up already.


Remember, the burden is on them to make their restrictions legal(and for there not to be unreasonable delay/expense/inconvienience on your part/etc), not you. For example the below is certianly not a legally allowable restriction when it comes to antennas for TV reception. Unfortunetly antennas for CB or ham radio are another story at present and restrictions which are not allowed for TV reception are often allowed for those(even though Hams for example often provide emergency/public communications services to communities+individuals ...)


Here is the quick snippet from the sub-div rule book (note:this is ALL that talks about antennas):
7.3.6 Radio and Television Antennae and Satellite Dishes: All television and radio antennae, including CB radio antennae, must be enclosed within the residence located on the Lot. All sattelite dishes are prohibited, unless such satellite dish has a diameter of 18 inches or less and screened from the roadway view.


Anyway, in addition to JY Dogg's suggestion and generally perhaps making an attempt to inform them about the FCC OTARD rules - If they insist to continue trying to enforce their IMO unlawful+inconvienient restrictions, before going about filing a petiton with FCC(as outlined near bottom of OTARD fact sheet), you might also want to think about contacting FCC informally (or perhaps even "hey howard" from WKRC/etc) per the following info I've quoted from OTARD fact sheet, and passing along the info you have, as well as contact info for your HOA : ( http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html#contact ) :

:quote

Q: Who do I call if my town, community association or landlord is enforcing an invalid restriction?

A: Call the Federal Communications Commission at (888) CALLFCC (888-225-5322), which is a toll-free number, or 202-418-7096, which is not toll-free. Some assistance may also be available from the direct broadcast satellite company, broadband radio service provider, television broadcast station, or fixed wireless company whose service is desired.

:end quote

you might also want to think about contacting FCC informally (or perhaps even "hey howard" from WKRC/etc)
ooooh, contact WKRC and tell them how much you love their HDTV broadcast and how your evil HOA wants to prevent your antenna! I love it: it would make a great Hey Howard segment!

Dimitriz - Who is the management company?

My OTA antenna:

Ok, the Association called me and they said that they will allow me to place antenna "on the roof" if it will NOT be visible from the front of the house (there goes line of sight!). They are coming out tomorrow to see where it would go. They dont know yet it's already UP on the mast while barely visible from the front.
Any suggestions? I do smell legal stuff coming up already.

Looks like they are trying to use:
Q: What restrictions prevent a viewer from receiving an acceptable quality signal? Can a homeowners association or other restricting entity establish enforceable preferences for antenna locations?

A: For antennas designed to receive analog signals, such as TVBS, a requirement that an antenna be located where reception would be impossible or substantially degraded is prohibited by the rule. However, a regulation requiring that antennas be placed where they are not visible from the street would be permissible if this placement does not prevent reception of an acceptable quality signal or impose unreasonable expense or delay. For example, if installing an antenna in the rear of the house costs significantly more than installation on the side of the house, then such a requirement would be prohibited. If, however, installation in the rear of the house does not impose unreasonable expense or delay or preclude reception of an acceptable quality signal, then the restriction is permissible and the viewer must comply.

The acceptable quality signal standard is different for devices designed to receive digital signals, such as DBS antennas, digital broadband radio service antennas, digital television ("DTV") antennas, and digital fixed wireless antennas. For a digital antenna to receive or transmit an acceptable quality signal, the antenna must be installed where it has an unobstructed, direct view of the satellite or other device from which signals are received or to which signals are to be transmitted. Unlike analog antennas, digital antennas, even in the presence of sufficient over-the-air signal strength, will at times provide no picture or sound unless they are placed and oriented properly.

Here is the quick snippet from the sub-div rule book (note:this is ALL that talks about antennas):
7.3.6 Radio and Television Antennae and Satellite Dishes: All television and radio antennae, including CB radio antennae, must be enclosed within the residence located on the Lot. All sattelite dishes are prohibited, unless such satellite dish has a diameter of 18 inches or less and screened from the roadway view.

(edited)

Looks like they are trying to use:
Q: What restrictions prevent a viewer from receiving an acceptable quality signal? Can a homeowners association or other restricting entity establish enforceable preferences for antenna locations?

A: For antennas designed to receive analog signals, such as TVBS, a requirement that an antenna be located where reception would be impossible or substantially degraded is prohibited by the rule. However, a regulation requiring that antennas be placed where they are not visible from the street would be permissible if this placement does not prevent reception of an acceptable quality signal or impose unreasonable expense or delay. For example, if installing an antenna in the rear of the house costs significantly more than installation on the side of the house, then such a requirement would be prohibited. If, however, installation in the rear of the house does not impose unreasonable expense or delay or preclude reception of an acceptable quality signal, then the restriction is permissible and the viewer must comply.

The acceptable quality signal standard is different for devices designed to receive digital signals, such as DBS antennas, digital broadband radio service antennas, digital television ("DTV") antennas, and digital fixed wireless antennas. For a digital antenna to receive or transmit an acceptable quality signal, the antenna must be installed where it has an unobstructed, direct view of the satellite or other device from which signals are received or to which signals are to be transmitted. Unlike analog antennas, digital antennas, even in the presence of sufficient over-the-air signal strength, will at times provide no picture or sound unless they are placed and oriented properly.

(edited)



Also from the FCC Fact Sheet at http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

Q: Who is responsible for showing that a restriction is enforceable?

A: When a conflict arises about whether a restriction is valid, the local government, community association, property owner, or management entity that is trying to enforce the restriction has the burden of proving that the restriction is valid. This means that no matter who questions the validity of the restriction, the burden will always be on the entity seeking to enforce the restriction to prove that the restriction is permitted under the rule or that it qualifies for a waiver.

All you have to do is use the underlined sections from the FCC FAQ above. Tell your HOA that you tried following their "not seen from the road" rule, but that you kept experiencing audio and video dropouts that you believe are caused by multipath reflections which are likely a result of having your house between the antenna and the signal source. As I read the FCC FAQ, your HOA will have the burden of showing that an acceptable digital signal can be acheived within the framework of their restrictions. To do that, they'll have to get a qualified technician out to your house, and if they do that, then there's no reason for you not to locate your antenna in the "sweet spot" that their technician has located.

CincyKev

As I read the FCC FAQ, your HOA will have the burden of showing that an acceptable digital signal can be acheived within the framework of their restrictions. To do that, they'll have to get a qualified technician out to your house, and if they do that, then there's no reason for you not to locate your antenna in the "sweet spot" that their technician has located.


Even if they [could] prove there is a "sweet spot" for antenna more to their liking, I think it would be unreasonable to have Dimitriz move his antenna(especially after he's already had to deal with IMO "unreasonable" delay/etc, and also since he already has installed the antenna - and I think it would be unreasonable in any case for him to have to move it, especially if it is working for him where it is), and I have a feeling(I would hope so anyway, given my understanding of the OTARD rules) FCC would be thinking along those lines as well.

Furthermore, I wouldn't also necessarily confine the "acceptable quality" rule for the signal to OTA digital TV signals, either, or to the Cincinnati stations. Dimitriz is well within the local coverage area for Dayton stations as well as probably the Cincinnati low power analog stations, and, multipath/ghosting/snow+getting an acceptable quality signal is likely to be problem to some extent for some analog stations he is in the coverage area of if his antenna is be located below the roofline of his house. The system we are using for both analog and digital TV was designed for reception with the use of outdoor, directional antennas mounted 30FT above ground(for one reason to get them above nearby obstructions such as your roof/house/etc), it is beyond ridiculous to have restrictions against this.

The way I'm thinking about this is, unless perhaps we are talking about property which has "national or historical value" I don't think a restriction is allowed which is based solely on whether so-and-so likes the way an antenna "looks" if it is visable from the road/etc. About the only restrictions which I'd think would really be OK in this case would be a restriction that doesn't allow the antenna higher than 12' above roofline, or restrictions on placement based on actual safety concerns - such as not near utilitiy lines, or requiring proper grounding to NEC - which in general involves grounding not only the coax run, but also the antenna's mast + those grounds must also be properly bonded to the main A/C service ground - There are very good reasons for doing that, BTW.

It might be one thing if Dimtriz had put up up a 30FT tower and 20' long antenna right in his front yard(although, chances are good that would be allowed per FCC rules as well if that's where the antenna can get best signal), but trying to restrict the antenna so it's not "visable", solely on the basis so it isn't "visable" from the road I don't think going to be an allowable restriction in [updated] almost all cases(except perhaps with property of national or historcial significance/etc). [update] - Now, I'm sure the HOA pres is going to read the OTARD fact sheet+the rules a little "differently" than I do, however, common sense just tells you that an antenna is usually going to be visable if it's placed above the roofline(whether the installation is behind the house, on the side of house or whatever), and common sense also tells you that having the antenna lower and below the roofline is not a good idea when it comes to receiving quality signals.

Furthermore, I think the "from the road" rule that is quoted from their rulebook, above applies only specificially to Sat dishes(18" or less in diameter) -- And while it is not an allowable restriction either(such as in cases when line of sight to the birds and the trees or roofline/etc. require the sat dish be placed on side or front of house) --- from what I gather from the rule Dimitriz quoted from the rulebook, they are saying anything else(including antenna for OTA TV reception, such as Dimitriz is using) has to go INSIDE the residence -- which obviously, per FCC rules is not a allowable restriction either.

ooooh, contact WKRC and tell them how much you love their HDTV broadcast and how your evil HOA wants to prevent your antenna! I love it: it would make a great Hey Howard segment!

It would, but I also wouldn't blame anyone for not wanting to do that.

I do think it would be great if the local stations could air a well researched story on this issue, however. Kudos to WLWT-DT for actually mentioning "digital broadcast" and 5.2 for weather plus, but, for that matter, I'd also like to see them do more to promote their OTA service(especially the DTV/HD part these days). Even a OTA "How to" program on say, one of the local PBS affiliates would be great. There are people out there who don't even know there is a choice other(or in addition to) than cable or satellite.


Sorry for the out of order posts ..

dimitriz - I went by your house this am on my way to the YMCA and you have nothing to worry about.. you have to be looking to see it from the road - its pretty well shielded from the road.. and the trees behind your house (even in winter) hide it from the condos behind you.... so dont worry about it.. its even hard to see from the main road - tell your hoa in a polite way to go pound salt!!

just straighten it up a little :)

jim

Notice Doppler 12 radar on 12.2 has been gone the past couple of days, replaced by 480i SD digital simulcast of WKRC analog -- In the EPG (via PSIP) 12.2 is now labeled "WKRC-TS", and it says something like Local 12 SD test.

MPEG2 compression artifacts continue to be a major problem for HD on 12.1, such as during the AFC playoff game tonight, especially compared to WHIO-DT. There is a good reason why ATTC recommended via their tests that stations sending 1080i not multicast, and I think that's especially true for bandwidth demanding programming. Seems like they should have figured this out when webhopper made it a mess, then it looked so nice for the short time when they weren't multicasting, until they added the doppler 12 radar screen. Also, I might be seeing things, but I'd swear HD from WKRC-DT may even look a tad softer currently than from WHIO-DT. Hard to tell right now, but I think I'm probably still getting that very slight greenish tint to everything on WKRC-DT as well.

Until WKRC gets there act together(Add DD5.1, drop subchannel), thank God for WHIO-DT. While WHIO isn't perfect(vertical blue lines in left bottom corner), I will take it because of DD5.1 and minimal compression artifacts. As far as the greenish tint, I couldn't tell you because I haven't watched WKRC all that much lately.

I don't normally watch games on WKRC-DT and the only reason is that WHIO-DT broadcasts in DD5.1. I compared both channels yesterday and honestly couldn't see anything wrong with either picture.

WXIX-DT also looked good yesterday for the first game. I couldn't tell the difference between their picture and WRGT-DT's either and ended up watching the entire game on WXIX-DT.

I compared both channels yesterday and honestly couldn't see anything wrong with either picture.
.

I don't think The MPEG2 compression artifacts from WKRC-DT are horribly bad(not as bad as was the case when they had webhopper up) or anything, however what I am seeing involves for instance what happens when the NFL logo spins, and if I look closely at player's faces when they move around+camera follows them, you'll see them breaking slightly up into little blurry "blocks" occasionally and, more often than will be the case you'll see it WHIO-DT.

As for the slight green tint I'm talking about from WKRC-DT, again it's very slight and I think its most noticeable during blacks or darker colors(such as say someones dark colored suit) during dark scenes during HD programming -- such as say during "Cold Case" -- Case", or "numbers"/etc, and only really noticable if you compare it directly with say, WHIO-DT or WKRC analog - but, I can see it during local news comparing to WKRC analog as well. This is something I've been seeing for years(especially noticable -- and this is how I first noticed it --- if say I record part of a program from WKRC-DT then switch to WHIO-DT for the rest), It may have allways been there, or maybe(and this probably explains it more than anything else would) I've just been seeing things(on the 4 different HD displays+4 different ATSC receivers I've used over the years) .....


WXIX-DT also looked good yesterday for the first game. I couldn't tell the difference between their picture and WRGT-DT's either and ended up watching the entire game on WXIX-DT.

In short, for Fox+WRGT-DT or WXIX-DT(and presumably any Fox HD affiliate, unless there are some out there doing things a little differently), what we get from the MPEG2 video/AC-3 audio at our receivers for Fox HD programming is exactly as it left Fox Network, which isn't the case with WKRC/WLWT/WCPO/etc.

In more detail --- PQ from WXIX-DT+WRGT-DT(or any other FOX HD affiliate) is the same because it's the exact same datastream from the network. Unlike distribution for the other commercial networks, for Fox network programming(including HD) fed through the feed for the splicer, the datastream(MPEG2 video/AC-3 audio/etc) is encoded at ATSC bitrates "ready for transmission" at network level, and "spliced in" to the local stream at the affiliate(effectively bypassing the local encoder or any other signal processing at the local affiliate), In other words, Without the need for a decoding/re-encoding process at the affiliate. The fox "splicer" at the local affiliate does have the capability to insert a local ID bug however, the command to insert that local "Fox45 bug" (WXIX still has the blue default FOX bug as they must've never sent their local bug into Fox network) I believe actually comes from the network.

Also, I'm not sure exactly how it works(is there some stat mux going on for example?) but stations like WXIX-DT can multicast "the tube", and there still won't be a PQ difference between them+WRGT-DT(which isn't multicasting) - Part of this I think is because Fox is "allowing" enough room with their bitrate they are using for stations to implement 1 semi-decent quality multicast SD subchannel. And if PQ is going to suffer because of high compression ratio/low bitrate, the way it's setup I think it's going to be the multicast SD channel(such as the tube) that suffers, not the FOX HD.

Another thing to keep in mind is that 720p doesn't push as many pixels as 1080i, and therefore is more multicast friendly - The ATTC tests I mentioned earlier in fact(which were done in the late 90's - th e ATTC was more or less the ATSC's "test bed" for digital TV), recommended that 720p+1 SD multicast service could work just fine with ATSC/MPEG2, while they recommended stations sending 1080i not multicast. Some say things have improved since then concerning the effiency of real time MPEG2 encoders so that stations sending 1080i can multicast a single SD service as well(presumably with no loss of quality compared to if they weren't multicasting) -- Maybe that's true, however, I personally have not seen any indication that it's the case, and seeing is believing.

dimitriz - I went by your house this am on my way to the YMCA and you have nothing to worry about.. you have to be looking to see it from the road - its pretty well shielded from the road.. and the trees behind your house (even in winter) hide it from the condos behind you.... so dont worry about it.. its even hard to see from the main road - tell your hoa in a polite way to go pound salt!!

just straighten it up a little :)

jim

Thanks!, lol (all of you!)
Was busy this weekend, so here is the rest of the story.

On Sat one of the board members came over. I let him in the house and told him that I already had the antenna up. His eyes looked like this :eek:
So we stepped out on the patio and conversation went like this:
Me: Well, this is it. (pointing the antenna out)
Him: That's it?
Me: Yep
Him: Ohh, that's fine. I didn't even see it from the street.
Me: :rolleyes: (and?) :D
Him: (sound of paper getting signed)

So, everything is cool... I knew in the back of my head there was nothing to worry about, they were just freaking out over 30' pole in my description.
Seemed more like a comprehension issue.

Now if I could only get WB64 HD, that would be great, but no luck with it unless I am doing something wrong. Fox19 mostly comes in at 94% (on DISH OTA receiver)
Probably going to try to get a better %signal on 64 (which I get) and then try to rescan the digitals again.

So, everything is cool... .

That's good to hear, however from the info you passed along from their "rulebook"/etc, it sounds to me like they(and I'd expect that there are likely many other situations where this is the case as well) need to do a little research on the FCC OTARD rules and update their restrictions accordingly to comply with OTARD. Especially as I expect it's often the case there are folks I think who might be intrested in OTA/putting up an antenna, but will read those sorts of restrictions from the HOA "rulebook" or "deed restrictions" verbatim and won't go any further than that.



Now if I could only get WB64 HD, that would be great, but no luck with it unless I am doing something wrong. Fox19 mostly comes in at 94% (on DISH OTA receiver)
Probably going to try to get a better %signal on 64 (which I get) and then try to rescan the digitals again.


I'm a little confused concerning whether or not you're referring to the digital station(which broadcasts on Channel 33 and only remaps to virtual channel 64-1) or the analog on 64 when you say that you "get" 64, at least to some extent ... The analog on 64 should certianly be booming in there "snow free".

I don't know how it works with the DISH receiver(811, 942/etc or whatever), but there should be a way for you to manually enter(or individually "scan" or "add" a single channel) channel "33" (or say the Dayton stations) to see what sort of signal you're getting OTA from WSTR-DT off your signal meter/adjust your antenna aiming/etc. accordingly rather than having to do a full autoscan for channels. It will of course need to achieve a signal lock to receive the PSIP channel remapping info(or to achieve any sort of video/audio/etc) from WSTR-DT, although the channel 64.1 is probably there in the Dish EPG guide as well, as I believe they also send that virtual channel remapping info over the satellite along with EPG info.

The main issue with WSTR-DT reception in some areas might involve their directional transmitting antenna+certian nulls in it's pattern+their current low power operation. However, If I remember your location correctly, you shouldn't be in the worst spot, and I'd think outdoor antenna such as you are using should probably "be enough". If for instance you're getting good enough signal for generally "snow free"(a little snow would probably be OK) reception from Cincinnati low power analogs 25,36,38, then unless you are right SE of WSTR tower their tower in their biggest Null, I'd think you should be able to pull in WSTR-DT as well.

In other words, If you're just not quite getting "enough" or quite "good enough" signal from WSTR-DT, you're probably not doing anything wrong, and it will probably "clear up" when WSTR-DT increases power -- although there may be some things you can do to improve things just enough so you can get them now.

For instance, #1), you might just need to more carefully aim your antenna at WSTR tower(which is farther north than the others, and therefore more west than South from your) when you want to receive them, or #2). it might be a multipath issue with them as well - which will be difficult to detirmine from looking at the analog on 64, as multipath can often be a very "frequency specific". TBN low power analog on 36 transmits from near WSTR, and may tell you something. Or #3). A preamp might help you out for WSTR-DT, but at your distance, (although again I think you'd be OK if you choose the "Right" mast mount preamp) there are other signals that may be "too strong" ... It is sometimes important to acheive the right "balance" .... Or #4). Rather than a preamp, if you can remove any splitters/diplexors or any other "extra" attenuation you have in the feedline line, that might be just the little bit of extra loss that's keeping you below threshold, or #5). perhaps when you straighten out your antenna mast so the antenna is "horizontal", no matter how it's aimed it will do the trick.

Of course there is also the possibility that there could be some sort of PSIP issue WSTR is having which is effecting certian receivers, or an issue with the EPG info(if you are receiving that from E*(dish network) rather than via the PSIP OTA -- If I recall correctly Dish makes you sub to LIL in order for the EPG info to work) -- One might suspect this for instance if they are getting "over threshold" readings from their receiver's signal meter for channel 33, but the receiver won't decode anything. I'm not noticing anything wrong with their PSIP here on any of my receivers, however.

There are some other possible factors which could contribute to your difficultly with WSTR-DT as well, -- For instance - having the antenna free+clear of nearby obstructions is allways a good idea - even if it means it's extremely visable from the road - and I think FCC will back you up on that if that's what you need to do to say, receive WSTR-DT, or any of the other Dayton or Cincinnati stations you're in the coverage area of ...

Hope some of that helps ....

Help with WXIX,

I recenetly installed a Winegard 7000 series directional antenna on a mast on the side of the house maybe 5 ft. above the ridgeline. RG6 all the way to the TV, no splits. There is a winegard Ap4700 pre-amp in the line.

I get every local station clear as day solid with the exception of WXIX (19).

Headings per antenna web say:
Ch. 19 @ 262 deg., 6.8 mi.
Ch. 5 @ 261 deg. 5.3 mi.
Ch. 48 @ 261 deg. 5.3 mi.
Ch. 12 @ 251 deg. 4.5 mi.

The guy helping me install the antenna told me that WXIX just has a "weak" signal in the city. I just think it is odd that of all the UHF stations only WXIX is shaky, in fact very shaky with frequent droppouts.

I had no use the VHF by-pass to prevent ATSC Ch. 5 from overloading everything it was such a clear signal. The UHF boost helped all the UHF ATSC channels, like 48 and 19 considerably. I am seeing a lot of ghosting on analog 19 so that is my only suspicions.

Any thoughts from the experts?

Wesg

I don't know if anyone else has noticed this, but I recently have had to try harder to get WXIX to come in. Like you said, Wesg, I see a lot of ghosting on analog 19 as well, much more than any other analog station. I am able to get most of the other stations just fine both digital and analog. I am wondering if something hasn't changed either on WXIX's end or in the environment near their transmitter. My setup didn't change any.

You didn't say where you are located (maybe you have in the past and I don't remember) but my guess is multipath. I had the best luck with tuning in analog 19 and reducing the ghosts to as little as possible (almost none). It also took some aiming that wasn't toward their tower. Once I got the ghosts gone on analog 19, digital WXIX worked fine.

(EDIT: I see that you are very close (~6mi) from most of the towers. Sorry I missed that. But that makes it almost certain to be multipath (or possibly overloading I suppose). I'd try getting rid of the ghosts on 19 analog and see how that works. You can also fool with the pre-amp I suppose but I'd bet it's multipath.

wesg,

[note/edited errors/etc - trying to post "too fast" and while eating is not all that wise ;)

Unless you have severe terrain shielding issues(big hill right in the way, and very near you) --- and for example weak signal issues(such as with analog stations) w/o the preamp, I'd think preamp is very likely not a good idea(even if it's UHF only/VHF bypass) from that close and with the use of one of the Winegard 7K series VHF/UHF antennas mounted outdoors.

While I agree with jmp2244's suggestions about the multipath and what to try to do about it, also keep in mind that the multipath situation may still be quite different for WXIX-DT 29 than WXIX 19 analog, as it can be very frequency specific. Given the preamp+use of a directional, high gain antenna(I assume aimed at the Cincinnati towers), I'd highly suspect intermod/desense/overload issues(receiver sensitivity/selectivity issues/etc) may be as much, or even more of an issue for you as multipath.

Also, your reception of WPTO-DT 28 (remaps to 14-x and transmits right off WXIX tower and is first adjacent channel to WXIX-DT 29) may tell you something as well. For example, if reception of WPTO-DT is solid, I'd think chances are good multipath is probably not the problem(or the "biggest problem" at least) you're having with WXIX-DT.

They are a bit unusual as WXIX-DT is sending an elliptically polarized signal(most TV/DTV signals are solely Horizontally polarized - elliptical polarization adds some vertical polarization as well), but I highly doubt that would mean they throw a "weak" signal over the city -- maybe if you were less than a mile from their tower(or any others) a lot of the signal may "overshoot you", but not from 6 miles or so distant - I would think even if they do have their beam tilt optimized for reception in outer areas rather than from close in, that you still should be able to get plenty of signal from 6 miles as well(unless terrain is blocking it - which wouldn't seem to be the case if the analog stations aren't "snowy").

if multipath is the biggest issue, along the lines of jmp2244's suggestions, either finding a "sweet spot" for the antenna(meaning you may have to move it from where it is mounted, although just a few inches up or down can make a big difference as well), or, as jmp mentioned, sometimes a bit of "misaiming" of antenna can help as well.

WLWT-DT transmits on channel 35, not channel 5. 5.1/5.2 are virtual remapped channels, only WLWT analog transmits on channel 5. Same thing with WCET-DT 34/Analog 48, WXIX-DT 29, analog 19/etc/etc. The only ATSC (digital) station that transmits on VHF in Cincinnati or Dayton is WCPO-DT 10 (analog 9), all the rest transmit on UHF. The actual channels the ATSC stations actually transmit on in Cincinnati can be found in first post of this thread, or in the "frequency assignment" column at antennaweb or in FCC CDBS or TV query info.

Other than removing the preamp, you could also try adding extra attenuation(R-S has a adjustable attenuator - up to -20db for just under $10 that's a good tool for this sort of thing) in feedline+see what happens. Either the preamp, or front-end of receiver or both could be "overloaded" and causing problems, if it's mainly the front-end of receiver getting "overloaded", adding extra attenuation just before the receiver could do the trick. If the preamp is being overloaded and is creating intermod, on say channel 29, then the attenuator probably wouldn't do much good unless you put it between the antenna+preamp. It's also somewhat possible a adjustable attenuator could help you out if multipath+the equalizer in your receiver keeping up with it is the issue.

Another thing you might want to try that might help, -- even though VHF frequencies are "bypassed" by the amp -- If it doesn't also have a FM trap(switch it to "in" if it does), you might want to try putting a FM trap in line, just before receiver/TV. RS has one of these for a few bucks also, it isn't the best, but it works. Extremely strong signals, even if they aren't "right" in the TV bands/channels can even cause problems - usually that's generally true only if you are using a preamp, however it is possible that if the signals are extremely strong , they can overload front-end of receiver and/or create intermod/desense issues(in places/on channels one might not expect) even without the use of a preamp - That's also where an attenuator can help, or can help you diagnose things ....

Anyway, haven't noticed any issues with WXIX or WXIX-DT here. Both are as strong as ever from 32 miles. Have to add about 50db extra attenuation in feedline to get to near threshold "marginal" signal levels(approx 16db SNR) for WXIX-DT.

To give you a little idea of what I'm talking about on this "overload thing" ... I'm 32~39 miles from Cincinnati stations(and am located down in a valley with some terrain issues) and 12~14 miles from WKOI/DT near oxford and the Dayton stations. With the use of preamps/seperate VHF/UHF antennas/etc here(the feeds from antennas are distributed into 4 rooms and multiple devices/etc with various splitters) I have to be very careful about "balancing things" out - so, I need to use notch filters/channel traps/FM traps/etc. to knock down some of the stronger, closer stations(mostly Dayton). Still, even with Cincinnati at 32 miles distant, unless I have at least 3.5db extra attenuation in feedline(1 2 way splitter) intermod(extra noise) from WLWT 5 analog starts showing up on channel 61. With a higher gain preamp(the one I'm using for VHF is 13db gain/3.0db nf), intermod from 9+12 are an issue as well.

For Dayton, I have to knock down WDTN 2 and WHIO 7 by about 40db(prior to preamp) each to keep "noise" from intermod (either preamp or receiver overloading ) from showing up on various channels they shouldn't be ..... Such as 54, 55/etc. Of course, I'm also doing this so I can "dx" stations on first adjacent channels 8/3/etc. I also knock down Channel 22 with a notch filter, and several other stations could actually use that treatment as well( Note that I do use a seperate antenna for Dayton stations/seperate feedline+A/B switch before receiver to "choose" antennas), so it doesn't matter what they "look like" when I trap them out for the "main" antenna setup with rotor). Also, In addition to a "standard" FM trap(switchable in most high quality preamps), I also use a notch filter(2MHZ bandwidth at 1/2 power points, it does at most a -12.5db notch) tuned to 88.7 FM so I can receive stations(analog) from Columbus/Indianapolis/(and elsewhere when the DX allows) on channel 6 without problems from the nearby low-FM band stations(88.1 Dayton+88.5 Oxford are particularly a problem for Ch 6 stations in nearly the same direction otherwise).

Also, even WITHOUT a preamp in line here on the VHF side, it's still necessary to use FM trap+ notch filters/traps for channel 2+7 Dayton for best "Reception" results for say WAVE 3 Lousiville, and to get rid of "herringbone" from intermod and strong nearby FM stations(at 6 miles distant, 93.7 Miamisburg at 50KW, as well as 99.1 Dayton 100KW and WTUE at 14 miles cause the most problems here w/o a FM trap in use - for some odd reason 105.9 Middletown doesn't cause much of a problem, whearas 92.5 Cincy, my FM receiver+I suspect a IF stage as well as herringbone to WKRC 12 is even another(long) story) or from channel 2/7 audio carrier on certian channels. And, again I'm 12 miles away from Dayton stations(with a hill in the way), which is a LOT different than 4~6 miles ....

Hopefully this will explain a little bit why I think many folks will often give you the advice to not use a preamp if your so close - I'm not necessarily saying that, as a lot really depends upon what, if any terrain issues you may be having to deal with, and if you are needing to feed the signal to many different devices. However, you must realize that in strong signal areas, such as only 6 miles from the towers, the signals(including WXIX/WXIX-DT) should, in most cases be VERY strong, and should be much more signal than you need.

More than you wanted to know I'm sure, but hope some of it helps ....

I had the best luck with tuning in analog 19 and reducing the ghosts to as little as possible (almost none). It also took some aiming that wasn't toward their tower. Once I got the ghosts gone on analog 19, digital WXIX worked fine.


I thought you, and perhaps others might be interested in seeing this ... Attached are several screenshots from a little "multipath"/reception test I did here this evening with WXIX analog+digital. Screenshots taken with digital camera of a direct-view CRT screen so there may be some moire pattern visable.


#1). Description/comments on First attached file below, "wxixmultipathtest.jpg" :

Upper left corner screenshot of my TV this evening shows my WXIX 19 analog OTA reception with the antenna aimed at 188 degrees(true - South basically), which is where I normally have it for Cincinnati reception. WXIX tower is located at 192 degree(true) bearing at 32 miles from my location.

Upper right corner screenshot shows my WXIX-DT 29(ATSC/Digital) OTA reception with the antenna still aimed at 188 degrees. No dropouts or problems as usual. Sorry, the signal quality meter on this particular receiver really doesn't tell you much of anything, but that's what it looks like.

Lower Left corner screenshot shows my WXIX 19 analog OTA reception this evening with antenna aimed at a 325 degree bearing(NW). This is about the worst multipath (as well as signal null) I could induce by off target antenna aiming for WXIX 19. As you can see, it's very Ugly, including some ugly ghosts(multipath) present -- who would want to watch that?

Lower right corner screenshot shows my WXIX-DT 29 (ATSC/Digital) reception this evening with antenna also aimed at 325 degree bearing(NW). Although it's just barely above threshold for reception, nevertheless I saw no dropouts or problems whatsoever during the few minutes I checked it - and this is an extreme example. I've left antenna as much as 90 degrees off target for WXIX-DT for hours on previous occasions with no dropouts experienced. Now, if it were windier outside, I'd expect dynamic multipath conditions would be such that dropouts would have occured.

Note that the situation is very similar for nearly every other digital station I receive -- although, for instance with WCET/WCET-DT, the biggest "null" I can find(at about 314 degrees) for the analog station still gives me solid reception+more than 1/2 scale reading on the "signal quality meter" for the digital station.

So, in my OTA reception circumstances, which "system" is better at handling multipath, Digital or analog? Obviously, and clearly in this case digital, but of course YMMV ... There's a lot more to "YMMV" when it comes to this sort of thing than seems obvious ....

------------------

#2) .Description of second attached file : "Cincylp.jpg" is just for "reference" to hopefully give a little bit of an idea of how well my antenna+OTA reception is "working". This is with antenna aimed at 188 degrees. At left is WOTH-LP 25 (Cincinnati Low power analog) from this evening, and at right, is WBQC-CA 38(Cincinnati Class A/Low power), Cincinnati, a screenshot I happened to take several weeks ago around noon. Both these transmit from WCPO tower, approx 32 miles distant from my location. Note I am approx 12 miles or so outside of both WOTH+WBQC's predicted coverage area(which is 74dbu for Low power stations). This is the quality of their signals here at all times, 24/7.


Equipment/receiving location description :

UHF Antenna used for above screenshots is AntennasdirectXG91 (which is actually made by a company called "Ceda" in China), tower mounted at 35FT above ground(at 838FT above sea level), on mast with rotor. Rotor is an Alliance HD-73, not that it matters. There is ground higher than the antenna about 1/4 mile distant in direction of Cincinnati, as well as 1000's of 30~100' tall trees in that direction within a mile or so. Ground goes up as high as 100FT higher than antenna within a few miles in direction of Cincinnati. UHF Preamp is mast mounted, Winegard AC-4990(UHF only). Approx. 80FT RG6, and two 2 way splitters in line before the receiver(s)/TV. In addition to power supply for preamp, in attic, There is also a Winegard UT-2700 UHF trap(set to knock down 22 by about 20db) in line, and a CM #0549 VHF/UHF combiner. VHF antenna used with this setup is winegard PR-5030 at 30FT above ground on same mast as the XG91. In the VHF feedline, several VHF channel traps/notch filters+coax stub filter and FM traps are used to knock down Dayton channel 2+7 and FM. Also in line on the VHF side before CM0549 is Winegard CA-8800 TV/FM band seperator -- so I can tap FM+send it to FM receivers/use it before trapping out FM to send to the TV's/etc. VHF preamp is in attic(after about 30FT RG 6 from antenna, and the traps/filters+TV/FM band seperator+before the CM0549, current VHF preamp is CM3042). There are also of course ground blocks on the Coax runs. ATSC Receiver used for screenshots was Zenith HDV420, NTSC tuner is internal to Toshiba 34HF84 HD(34" Direct View CRT) display, which is the display used.

----------------------------------------------------

We allways hear of folks reception problems here, so In addition to demonstrating that in at least my case, ATSC seems to work very well where "multipath" is concerned, and that, considering jmp2244's results concerning WXIX/WXIX-DT + Multipath, to hopefully demonstrate just how true the phrase "YMMV" actually is when it comes to OTA/wireless and many factors which in some cases which can influence, or impair reception -- I also thought it might be a nice change for once to demonstrate a little bit of how well OTA(either for digital/HD OR analog) reception actually does work ... YMMV of course ...

Hi all,
was hoping someone could recommend an antenna for me for the following situation.
It has to be one that can be mounted to my existing dish network dish or indoor. I can put it in the attic(wifes rules). I am hoping to buy it at lowes,radioshack, or somewhere else local. I did see that lowes has the channel master 3016 but i dont know if that is a good antenna or not. Hopefully, something where i dont have to do a rotator but i would consider it. Thanks for all help in advance. Here are the digital stations antennaweb says i should get:
DTV Antenna
Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live
Date Compass
Orientation Miles
From Frequency
Assignment
* yellow - uhf WPTD-DT 16.2 PBS DAYTON OH 35° 26.2 58
* yellow - uhf WPTO-DT 14.2 PBS OXFORD OH 323° 10.6 28
* yellow - uhf WKEF-DT 22.1 ABC DAYTON OH 35° 26.2 51
* yellow - uhf WXIX-DT 19.1 FOX NEWPORT KY 191° 19.1 29
* yellow - uhf WLWT-DT 5.1 NBC CINCINNATI OH 187° 18.9 35
* yellow - uhf WKRC-DT 12.1 CBS CINCINNATI OH 184° 19.4 31
* yellow - uhf WCET-DT 48.1 PBS CINCINNATI OH 187° 18.9 34
* green - uhf WDTN-DT 2.1 NBC DAYTON OH 35° 25.8 50
* green - uhf WRGT-DT 45.1 FOX DAYTON OH 35° 26.2 30
* red - vhf WCPO-DT 9.1 ABC CINCINNATI OH 183° 18.8 10
* red - uhf WBDT-DT 26.1 WB SPRINGFIELD OH 35° 26.2 18
* red - uhf WHIO-DT 7.1 CBS DAYTON OH 35° 27.0 41
* red - uhf WSTR-DT 64.1 WB CINCINNATI OH 189° 13.6 33
* blue - uhf WKOI-DT 39.1 TBN RICHMOND IN 323° 10.6 39

Nitewatchman and jimp1244,

Thanks.... I'll need to print out you comments, chem on them ahwile, experiment some, and get back to you.

Thanks

- Wesg

...... It has to be one that can be mounted to my existing dish network dish or indoor I can put it in the attic(wifes rules).


I've never tried it, but I'd think an antenna such as CM3016 may be "long enough" that Mounting it above the dish(you'd need to extend the mast too of course) may cause the antenna to be "in the way" of the sat dish reception. Mounting it below the dish would probably be OK, although I think you'd need some sort of custom mount(the standard Dish 500 mount that came with my dish wouldn't even give you a level mount for an antenna below the dish, for instance). Also keep in mind that the dish (dish 500 I assume) mount is not necessarily designed for the windload/etc. of a VHF/UHF combo such as CM3016 or for rotor, so you'll want to make sure you've got a steady mount for both the Dish+antenna.

Antennas such as the dish "clip on" antennas, or Winegard Sensar(and possibly CM 3010 "stealthtenna" and winegard "squareshooter") are designed so they can be mounted to the dish mount/mast(I think you'll probably still need a bit of extra mast above the dish however for all but the dish clip on antennas), but unfortunetly none of those are very good antennas -- although, there is a chance that any of those would be better than any antenna indoors, and in your case, even the dish clip on antennas would be orientated such that they would probably have about the best chance of working for Cincinnati(and possibly even dayton) reception. Just don't count on it, as chances are also very good your reception will not be very good off one of those dish clip on antennas, which are little more than outdoor "rabbit ears", that you can't even adjust ....

......
I am hoping to buy it at lowes,radioshack, or somewhere else local. I did see that lowes has the channel master 3016 but i dont know if that is a good antenna or not.

CM3016 would probably be a good choice, best to get it outside though, especially for Dayton.


Hopefully, something where i dont have to do a rotator but i would consider it.


You won't need a rotor for Just the Cincinnati stations, or for just the Dayton stations, but with the use of a directional antenna(which is a good idea, and is probably what you'll need) you'll need either a rotor, or seperate antennas for Cincinnati and Dayton. If the latter, you'll probably need to use seperate feedlines+ a A/B switch before receiver to switch between them. Note that the antennaweb info for WPTO-DT's location is incorrect. It's on WXIX's tower(so 191 degrees from you), not transmitting from oxford as indicated.

If you are interested in WKOI/DT(TBN) or WPTO analog(transmitting from Oxford) as well, you'll likely either need the rotor for those, or a dedictated/seperate antenna(keep in mind though there's a Low power TBN analog station on 36 in Cincinnati which will likely go digital someday) -- for WKOI-DT, you might be able to use a CM Jointenna for 39 to combine your WKOI-DT antenna with your Cincinnati or Dayton antenna and use the same feedline. However, I'm not sure how much bandwidth the jointenna's effect, that might be an issue for WHIO-DT 41, Dayton.

Unless you want to mess around with the dish mountable antennas, What I might recommend as something you might want to try :

#1). First, pick up an antenna such as CM3016/CM3020, or RS VU90/120(if any stores still stock them, I think RS may have discontinued them, their smallest VHF/UHF combo may now be the VU160), There are other antenna choices that might work well for you as well, but you'll probably have to order via internet or look up the area winegard/CM distributors(there are a couple in Dayton).

#2). Stick it on a temporary mount(a pole, fencepost, broomhandle, section of mast(lowe's has 10' or 5' 1.25" diameter mast sections) or whatever ) in your yard(you can try it in your attic as well/compare to what it's like outdoors - be sure to show your wife), Aim it towards Cincinnati, see what you get, aim it towards Dayton(manually) and then oxford(manually) see what you get then go from there to decide what you want to do as far as outdoor/attic mount, and rotor or seperate antenna for Dayton goes. Keep in mind that while Cincinnati has a VHF digital station(and looks like there will be 2 VHF stations in Cincinnati after analog shut off), Dayton digital is all UHF(and at this point looks like it will remain that way after analog shut off as well), so a relatively smaller UHF only antenna such as RS U-75R or CM4221 4 bay bowtie should do the trick for Dayton - and BTW, the CM4221 is a better UHF antenna than the UHF section on say, a CM3016.

Hope this helps, let us know how it goes.

Until WKRC gets there act together(Add DD5.1, drop subchannel), thank God for WHIO-DT. While WHIO isn't perfect(vertical blue lines in left bottom corner), I will take it because of DD5.1 and minimal compression artifacts. As far as the greenish tint, I couldn't tell you because I haven't watched WKRC all that much lately.


You are all going to have to get used to the Subchannels since in the future almost ALL of the local channels will be using the subchannel to carry actual programming instead of "test" content. We are doing our best to ensure that the HD content looks as well as it can considering the subchannel's will be getting used more in the future.

Weasel

If that statement is true, I imagine more antennas will be going up and pointed towards the Dayton towers. It amazes me that little podunk Dayton gets it right more often than the broadcasters in Cincinnati.

If that statement is true, I imagine more antennas will be going up and pointed towards the Dayton towers. It amazes me that little podunk Dayton gets it right more often than the broadcasters in Cincinnati.

I don't know that Dayton is "getting it right..." I'd say that if anything they just don't have the resources or expertise on hand that the Cincinnati stations do. Just watch an evening newscast in Dayton and compare it to Cincinnati. With the exception of WHIO, which compares fairly well with a Cincy newscast, the Cincinnati newscasts are very professionaly done compared to the almost amateur nature of Dayton newscasts. In my time in Dayton I dearly missed a quality local news program. The Cincinnati stations seem to be more of "pioneers" then the Dayton stations, although I'll grant you the WCPO jaggie exception.

I definately agree that the subchannels degrade the quality of HD content, but I also think that Dayton will eventually "advance" to it as well. I don't think it's a matter of those stations trying to give us a better picture. (update: I'm guessing the case of the Dayton stations is that, back when they had subchannels, they were just trying to prove that they could do it/gain experience. There really is no reason for an SD simulcast showing the same thing as the HD subchannel. They're probably planning uses for their subchannels, but while they don't have something in place, they most likely removed them to allow the increase in picture quality for the time being)

I think subchannels can be great if used effectively. For example, I'd love to see subchannels throughout daytime SD programming so we have more choices. But when primetime programming is on, use all of the available bandwidth for the HD stream. If there is severe weather, a small bug could notify users to switch to a subchannel (which would then be granted more bandwidth) for more information, meaning the regular programming could continue uninterrupted. I'm not sure how easy or feasible it is for stations to dynamically change bandwidth allocations on subchannels, but I think this is the ideal, is it not?

Nitewatchman, I tried the ghost experiment myself after seeing your results. With anywhere near the amoung of ghosting you're showing on analog 19 with the antenna mis-aimed, I get unwatcheable Digital tv. Maybe we should be discussing the ability of particular tuners to deal with multipath? As I've mentioned, I'm using the ATI HDTV Wonder card and don't really have any other digital tuners to test with, so perhaps the ATI tuner just doesn't handle multipath well...

...Just watch an evening newscast in Dayton and compare it to Cincinnati. With the exception of WHIO, which compares fairly well with a Cincy newscast, the Cincinnati newscasts are very professionaly done compared to the almost amateur nature of Dayton newscasts. ...

I wasn't referring to the quality of the newscasts. What I was referring to is picture quality and lack of subchannels consuming precious bandwidth. All of the Dayton stations were previously running subs, but most of them quit doing it. Will they broadcast subchannels in the future? Perhaps, but for now, most of the Dayton HD looks better, IMHO.

Paul

You are all going to have to get used to the Subchannels since in the future almost ALL of the local channels will be using the subchannel to carry actual programming instead of "test" content. We are doing our best to ensure that the HD content looks as well as it can considering the subchannel's will be getting used more in the future.

Weasel


Well no offense to WLWT, WCPO, WKRC and WXIX; I think its stupid to waste bandwidth with weather channels, a SD version of the channel and music channels. I admit it would be nice during non-HD, why not program the channel to drop during HD? I doubt everything will be HD for many years to come, so this seems simple. Once all the execs and engineers buy HDTVs and see all the problems, things will be set straight again. I don't understand why most of these subchannels cannot work on 2 Mbps and 17 Mbps to HD? To reduce further problems, reduce the resolution on these subchannels, they certainly don't not all the resolution anyway. I am thankful for Dayton stations because they offer it straight to viewers, which may end up being a bigger deal than whats on a subchannel.

However, even with the subchannel, any date on DD5.1?

thanks for the post weasel.. cant say that I agree with it, and will certainly voice my opinion - for what its worth.. now.. any word on dd5.1?

anyone remeber this article: http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050320/BIZ01/503200373/-1/all

Cincinnati bell's IPTV - havent heard boo about it since then

Ya, whatever happened with CinBell's IPTV? I know Verizon is really moving forward with their FIOS service, which sounds very nice.

I would say that 9 times out of 10, I watch network television out of Dayton. And I have a choice between Dayton and Cincinnati channels here with my 2-antenna setup. Why would I watch a cool show like CSI in stereo sound when I can watch it in DD5.1? That's just one example. I rarely watch the local news. I get all of my news from the internet. I read what interests me when it's convenient for me. For me it's all about prime time HD programming quality.

You are all going to have to get used to the Subchannels since in the future almost ALL of the local channels will be using the subchannel to carry actual programming instead of "test" content. We are doing our best to ensure that the HD content looks as well as it can considering the subchannel's will be getting used more in the future.

Then you are going to have to get used to people complaining about pixelation and break-ups. Either that or go to some less bandwidth intense state of 480P and advertise it as EDTV instead. While I would much prefer true HDTV, I'll take crisp 480P over squeezed and crappy 1080i anyday.

You are all going to have to get used to the Subchannels since in the future almost ALL of the local channels will be using the subchannel to carry actual programming instead of "test" content. We are doing our best to ensure that the HD content looks as well as it can considering the subchannel's will be getting used more in the future.
If that statement is true, I imagine more antennas will be going up and pointed towards the Dayton towers.

I believe this is what Weasel is referring to: New CBS subchannel: CBS.2 (http://www.mediaweek.com/mw/news/recent_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001261209). This is "real" content and not test content (weather channels). Don't believe for a minute that WHIO-DT will be immune to this new subchannel.

Why is it that PBS seems to get away with all of their subchannels without impacting the HD feed while the major networks have such problems? Am I just missing the pixelation or is PBS airing shows that are subchannel friendly? (I don't know how else to say airing shows with less motion thus eliminating the motion pixelation)

Update on Cincinnati Bell IPTV? (http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14768744)

Ya, whatever happened with CinBell's IPTV? I know Verizon is really moving forward with their FIOS service, which sounds very nice.
My friend at Bell says that there have been major delays by Microsoft in readying their middleware. The word in the office is Bell will roll it out Q2, but his gut tells him Q3 2006.

He also says that the pipe will be able to handle Zoomtown, home phone, and up to 2 HD displays (or 5 SD displays or some other combination).

While this would work for most people, the folks actually using multiple HD displays (and those running multiple HD-DVRs) are, for now, out of luck.

I didn't think to ask if it will integrate with OTA...what topic are we in again? :o

I wasn't referring to the quality of the newscasts. What I was referring to is picture quality and lack of subchannels consuming precious bandwidth. All of the Dayton stations were previously running subs, but most of them quit doing it. Will they broadcast subchannels in the future? Perhaps, but for now, most of the Dayton HD looks better, IMHO.

Paul


I knew what you were referring to; I was just using newscasts as an example to show the difference in the resources between Cincinnati stations and Dayton stations.

The Dayton stations did drop their subchannels, but like I said, I don't think it's because they "realized" that people don't want subchannels. I think it's more because they were testing before, and now that they've accomplished what they need to, there's no reason to continue the subchannels until they get real content for them. The content that WLWT and WXIX provide is unique and useful. I use Weather Plus often, and I enjoy the music videos on the Tube enough that I wish they'd improve the quality of the audio--but NOT during HD primetime. When HD primetime is on, the subchannels should drop completely or reduce bandwidth enough to not affect the primary content.


I would say that 9 times out of 10, I watch network television out of Dayton. And I have a choice between Dayton and Cincinnati channels here with my 2-antenna setup. Why would I watch a cool show like CSI in stereo sound when I can watch it in DD5.1? That's just one example. I rarely watch the local news. I get all of my news from the internet. I read what interests me when it's convenient for me. For me it's all about prime time HD programming quality.

I don't disagree with you in the least. That's why I suggested the ideal being that they use the subchannels to give us additional choices. For example, during non-primetime hours, 3 SD options is a good thing. But during primetime, when the network is pushing for huge audiences with high quality programming, the other subchannels should drop. And like I said, if there is a weather issue of some sort (or even school closings for snow) they could add a bug to the HD feed referring watchers to an SD feed that would temporarily be brought back up, allowing the HD content to go uninterrupted.

WCET-DT has pixelation and sometimes there is a lot of it. They run the one subchannel and I believe they give some bandwidth for public use. How much bandwidth I don't know. Do the stations know how much bandwidth they allow to each channel?

The Dayton stations did drop their subchannels, but like I said, I don't think it's because they "realized" that people don't want subchannels. I think it's more because they were testing before, and now that they've accomplished what they need to, there's no reason to continue the subchannels until they get real content for them...

Oh, they realized that people didn't want them. Perhaps I give too much credit to 'the collective' that constantly nagged them until they were gone but at least they're gone--for whatever reason. ;) WHIO-DT has been known to utilize the sub-channels for two different programs, such as last March with the NCAA having two different games on at the same time. They still periodically reactivate the sub.

Paul

The story on the Dayton thread was that WHIO ran the subchannel for a handful of cable headends to receive their signal. Once they got switched over to some sort of fiber connection they were able to drop the subchannel.

As for Cincinnati digital stations deserving some sort of credit for their "pioneering" work with DTV/HD, sorry, but I do have to laugh a little about that. As just one example, before Fox went to the splicer+HD, for over 2 years WXIX-DT couldn't get aspect ratio right for Fox "widescreen" programming(we called it "weirdscreen") because they had it setup so someone would have to go "down the hall" to flip a switch, and couldn't actually monitor the signal to see if they "flipped the switch" correctly. That's more along the lines of how many stations(in many markets) have handled their digital/HD offerings so far - things may be improving, and there are and have been exceptions to that, and sometimes you'll find them in the most unexpected places, even in Cincinnati or Dayton ...

As for the subchannels and PQ, folks, it's ALL about $. For the most part, I don't think PQ is going to matter much to them as long as people continue to tune in, and unless their clients start complaining about it. If they think they have a way they can make more $ with SD subchannels, or datacasting or whatever, they'll do it. Heck, from what we've seen, sometimes, they'll even try things and experiment even if it's a snowball's chance in H*ll of working. Broadcasters do seem to like to learn things the hard way these days. And, sometimes, they'll just do it because it's something the "higher ups" at the station/group/network wants them to do, regardless of whether or not it actually makes any sense. In any case, doesn't mean you have to watch it, or the degraded HD PQ.

OTOH, when a automaker exec who advertises on CBS HD sees how excellent his new HD ad looks on say, WWJ-
DT Detroit, then comes to, say Cincinnati and sees it turn into a blurry mess of "little blocks" during the bandwidth demanding sections, I'm not sure how they will handle that - and/or the same thing with CBS's planned new SD service from a network perspective[update], depending upon how they+their affiliates implment it. Multicasting can work, even with 1080i during non-bandwidth demanding programming - It's only during short periods of bandwidth demanding sections of programming that even 1080i needs "all the bits it can get" with ATSC ...[end update] And, this sort of thing is just going to become more noticable once the HD on DVD formats start to become popular.

[update] : another thing I can't quite grasp however, is how there can be much of a long term viability or future for SD, for most applications. In 10, 15 years, why will people be watching SD at all, except for stuff such as "All in the Family" which CAN'T be transferred to HD ?...And/or maybe for applications such as a local weather info channel/etc here or there. New Codecs/etc. might be nice, but If there are even any broadcasters around by that time, I doubt it will give the capability to stations to do much "HD Multicasting". They aren't going to get more RF bandwidth to fit more bits into either. They may see Cuban as some sort of eccentric, out of touch with reality "nut" when it comes to this sort of thing, but it might be wise to at least listen to a little bit of what he says about this sort of thing .... ...[end update]

What I do know is, I can switch the channel or use the "off" button. I seem to be encouraged to do the latter more and more often these days. I don't have to get "used to it" - either the lack of high quality, interesting content or a "good story" I want to watch, or poor PQ issues. Also, In the future, and especially as long as this sort of nonsense continues, I expect it will become more and more possible to bypass the local affiliate alltogether, and get the high quality HD pics from the nets via other means. Heck, in many cases I can almost already do that -- Just wait for the Season of DVD's(which is better PQ than some of the "HD-lite", or overcompressed bandwidth demanding "scenes" out there) -- Not that I'm likely to pay for that, I'm more likely to just turn the TV off.

As one example, In 2002, I couldn't keep my eyes off the excellent PQ of the HD Olympics coverage from NBC/HD net on WLWT-DT, if for no other reason just BECAUSE it looked so good. Hard to say but my guess is, I probably won't watch much of it this year, if what I've seen the last couple of years HD PQ wise from NBC HD/WLWT-DT/WDTN-DT during bandwidth demanding programming(HD Nascar/2004 HD Olympics/etc) is any indication of what this year's HD olympics are going to look like .....

Maybe we should be discussing the ability of particular tuners to deal with multipath? As I've mentioned, I'm using the ATI HDTV Wonder card and don't really have any other digital tuners to test with, so perhaps the ATI tuner just doesn't handle multipath well...

Here's one thread you can find quite a bit of info and discussion on different recievers capability to handle multipath, as well as other important things - especially check out some of the links/info Holl_ands provides :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6384680&&#post6384680

If it isn't in there somewhere, also check out the receiver performance tests(including for multipath) performed by FCC as part of SHERVA proceedings. Unfortunetly, they just refer to different receiver models as "Brand A", Brand B"/etc, but still, there is a lot of good info to be found here in the receiver test sections - do note that I believe most(if not all) of the receivers tested are recent models :

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-05-199A1.pdf

Personally, I currently have+use 3 different ATSC receivers, and have used 4 overall. These are : RCA DTC-100 (1st or 2nd generation), Zenith HDV420(3.5 or 4th generation), Hisense(USDTV) DB-2010(uses one of the later ATI chipsets - considered "4th gen" more or less I believe), and ATSC receiver internal to a Sony KD34XBR960 HDTV(I'm not postive, but think it may use a ATI chipset as well). I haven't noticed much difference at all in the mulitpath handling capabilities among those 4 receivers. If anything, The Zenith, Hisense and receiver in the Sony may perform just a tad better with multipath, and sensitivity wise(overall) than the DTC, but it was never really enough of a difference that I could tell to "write home about". They all seem to do a great job handling multipath, here. Do keep in mind however that even small improvements may be more 'visable' in less than optimal receiving conditions(indoor antennas, locations where multipath, or other issues issues are more problematic/etc).


---------------------------------------


Don't believe for a minute that WHIO-DT will be immune to this new subchannel.


Don't know, it's hard to say. Just because it's something CBS is offering doesn't mean it's something either WHIO or WKRC will do. WDTN-DT(NBC HD Dayton) doesn't run weatherplus for instance, instead, their multicasting a SD digital simulcast of WDTN 2 analog. Neither WCPO nor WKEF/WDTN(when WDTN was ABC) ran ABC's "News Now" when they were doing it for SD multicasting for digital stations.

I don't know if it's true or not, but I've heard WDTN thinks the SD subchannel is important to them as they want TW Dayton to carry the 480i SD digital multicast along with the HD subchannel(TW doesn't want to do that is also what I heard). Contrary to a comment made by another poster, it's not a simple(or even workable thing) as it seems it should be for them to just convert the 720p/1080i and differing aspect ratios for programming to 480i SD digital for the cableco headend, so they can send 4x3 SD digital to the SD cable subs. It certianly, does however seem quite ridiculous to waste the bandwidth of the public airwaves with duplicate programming at 480i+1080i ...

As Paul noted, WHIO-DT had a SD subchannel(SD digital simulcast of analog) until just after the 2005 HD masters. Who knows, but I expect it's possible one of their clients who likes golf got an HD set and saw the horrible looking results of what happened, for instance to the ball+the background scenery/etc with the multicasting when the camera panned along with the ball. Or, maybe it was just that some of their employees/higher ups have HD sets now, and saw how awful it looked, or maybe our reports to them about it(I sent my first one about it to them in fall 2001, shortly after they first came on the air) to them did play some sort of part in it.

Also, as Paul mentioned they do sometimes "bring it back". For instance, a few months ago, WHIO had 7-2 back for a few days for coverage of the Roberts confirmation hearings. They only had it active during the day when the feed from CBS was active for it. KET did have those hearings up on KET5 or 6 at the time as well, WKRC-DT had the doppler 12 radar screen. For those days of the hearings, CBS didn't send HD for Y&R.

The story on the Dayton thread was that WHIO ran the subchannel for a handful of cable headends to receive their signal. Once they got switched over to some sort of fiber connection they were able to drop the subchannel.

While it's true that's one reason some stations do run a SD digital 4x3 simulcast/multicast(and my guess is we'll probably even see more of that in the future), and I had suspected getting SD digital to the cable headends might have had something to do with it with WHIO -- I never actually heard that was actally the case with WHIO, nor did I ever see that posted on Dayton thread. Mind providing a link to the post/info on Dayton thread from WHIO or TW that confirms this? Thanks.

BTW, many cable+DBS headends use the OTA signals. Fiber is more common for the "close in" cable headends, although cableco's that have huge service areas may have their own distribution systems to serve all their headends.

Mind providing a link to the post/info on Dayton thread from WHIO or TW that confirms this? Thanks.

Dayton / Lima, OH - HDTV - AVS Forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5374156&highlight=WHIO+cable+headend#post5374156)

Dayton / Lima, OH - HDTV - AVS Forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5374156&highlight=WHIO+cable+headend#post5374156)

Thanks, I'd missed that. But, I would point out that says nothing about those cable headends using fiber instead of OTA as you said in your post.

Instead, (and the 7.1 part Is Indeed interesting, as in the past I've seen detailed discussion among engineers concerning why this creates "problems" when it comes to SD/4x3 for the SD cable) it says, and I quote :

"As far as the issue with digital sub-channels ( 7.2 ), we are working with several outlying cable companies to make changes. They currently are using this signal to receive Channel 7 for re-transmission on their cable system. We are attempting to move them to 7.1. Once this is done we plan on making some changes. There is no target date for these changes to take place."

:end quote

[update : To clarify, that info from WHIO is saying they were attempting to move those cable headends to the 7.1 "HD" subchannel from WHIO-DT, , it says nothing about fiber or OTA or how the cable headends they are talking about are receiving the signal. Since he mentions them being "outlying" headends, it's probably OTA(and probably still is),but It could be either or something else involving microwave relays/etc, but it doesn't really matter. He's talking about 7.1 HD channel(OTA or otherwise) instead of 7.2, not whether its fiber or OTA feed to the head end. It would be interesteing to know if their attempts were successful, or if instead they found another solution. [end update ]

That still doesn't explain, after 3.5 years, and around the time of the HD masters, exactly WHY they thought it was necessary to go to the effort to drop 7.2, and move the cable-head ends which were using it to 7.1 ...

WCET-DT has pixelation and sometimes there is a lot of it. They run the one subchannel and I believe they give some bandwidth for public use. How much bandwidth I don't know. Do the stations know how much bandwidth they allow to each channel?
The #'s are 14,500,000 bps, 2,500,00 bps, 2,500,000bps. Multiplexed.

I must agree with Webhopper, no matter how much people on this Forum complain, multicasting is here to stay. When there is profit to be made in Dayton they will also jump on the bandwagon. I do think people will accept so-so HD just as they accept so-so analog today. Sometimes I'm amazed when I walk into someone's house and look at how bad their televisions look. The other day I walked in to a guys house who had two beautiful plasma TV's with digital and not high def cable feeding them. He couldn't understand why my HD set looked so much better.

Thanks, I'd missed that. But, I would point out that says nothing about those cable headends using fiber instead of OTA as you said in your post.

Yes, I realized that when I found the original post and put it on here. My main point is still valid though, they were using the 7.2 subchannel for sending a signal to some cable company headends for retransmission.

The #'s are 14,500,000 bps, 2,500,00 bps, 2,500,000bps. Multiplexed.


It looked much better during bandwidth demanding content from WCET-DT from about Nov 2002~early 2003, which was I believe around the time WCET-DT struck a deal for cable carriage, including for the SD multicast subchannels ..... Since at that time, a lot of the material on PBS HD feed was from their HD demo loop+some of it quite bandwidth demanding programming(fly-over's etc), it was quite obvious how good HD can look when it's done right ....

Anyway, Are those "static" bitrate or are you using statistical multiplexing, and how is it set up(can HD get "more bits" when it needs it or is 14.5mb/s the max?) Thanks.


Sometimes I'm amazed when I walk into someone's house and look at how bad their televisions look.


Yes, from what I've seen many displays seem to be poorly calibrated+aligned or exhibit interesting "color decoding" given the factory settings these days, and the user can't necessarily fix it from the "user menu". And I have also definitely seen displays which create their own sort of "digital looking artifacts" which look pretty much just like MPEG2 compression artifacts. There are also things that can't be fixed. I tried out a 32" LCD flat panel for a while last summer(well, I took it back the next day) I couldn't believe how awful it looked sitting next to a $500 26" direct-View CRT HD display(although admittedly one that I had to do extensive "work" on) ... No matter what I did with the user controls(didn't try anything else), for instance, There just wasn't anything that ever looked anywhere "black" that was supposed to be on the LCD display ... instead, blacks were at best, a washed out grey ....

However, that doesn't excuse stations from not following well known practices(such as what was found from ATTC tests where bitrate recommendations and 1080i/720p are concerned). I keep hearing how more efficent "encoders", and the use of stat mux/etc have made those tests+results not applicable, today, but I've yet to actually SEE any evidence of it, and seeing is believing.

So, WCET-DT is taking what is, uncompressed, about 1.5G/bs as HD-SDI, and squeezing it down, using lossy compression to 14.5Mb/s. With that high of a compression ratio, the difference between 14.5Mb/s and 18mb/s can be quite substantial, especially for bandwidth demanding programming at 1080i. There are times with 1080i via MPEG2 that even all the bandwidth available with ATSC isn't quite enough.

Hopefully, more folks will start noticing just how substantial the difference between say, 14Mb/s and 17~18mb/s with 1080i can be. Now, with WCET-DT as much as I'd rather it be 1080i at say, 18mb/s, nevertheless if you're going to multicast, 720p would be a much better choice for WCET-DT's HD service(or for WKRC-DT/WLWT-DT for that matter with a SD multicast channel), as 720p "pushes fewer pixels" and is more multicast friendly ..... In fact, ~15mb/s and a multicast SD subchannel would probably work quite nicely with 720p, and it in fact(more or less) does for WCPO-DT/ABC, WXIX-DT/Fox HD/etc ...


My main point is still valid though, they were using the 7.2 subchannel for sending a signal to some cable company headends for retransmission.


Absolutely, again thanks for the info/link. Not in Dayton or Cincinnati, but I'd heard info from a station employee(he actually doesn't work there anymore) concerning a station in another market, and he said they were doing the same thing specifically because the outlying cable head end involved couldn't get a good enough signal from the analog station, but a SD(received OTA) version of the digital worked great for them. However, they must have figured something else out since then, as now that particular station(which is CBS) is running UPN on the SD subchannel, and transcoding CBS HD to 720p (which is more multicast friendly than 1080i).

The only reason subchannels will stay is if they get carried on cable/satellite. Other than that, how much more money could a station bring in with only OTA viewers?

Think nearly all the SD subchannels from the local stations are already carried on cable.

Maybe it's a good time to spend a little time enjoying the finer things in life .... for instance, See following thread ...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=629449&page=1

I've been using a Pioneer BD-V3500HD Receiver provided by Time Warner for the last several months. I use the Pioneer's DVI outport connected to the HDMI port of my Sony Wega HD TV. I've noticed a few strange things that I don't know if these are normal for this combination of receiver/tv.

1) When I switch to a HD channel, the screen will lose the picture, flash blocks of color for about a second before showing the picture. Is this some HD picture sequence?

I briefly had the coax going directly into the TV and didn't notice this type of change between hi-def channels.

2) When I pull up the on screen guide, I get the same loss, color flashes, etc before the guide is displayed with the current channel's picture. I assume the signal reverted from HD to SD quality to show the guide.

3) When I watch TW for a while then switch to another input (DVD, ReplayTV, etc). A minute after I change, I notice the receiver's front LED displays "boot" and the receiver resets. Can the receiver detect I'm not using it from the cable and reset itself?

I'd appreciate any response that this is normal or the receiver needs replaced by TW.

Thanks.

// Scott A

1) When I switch to a HD channel, the screen will lose the picture, flash blocks of color for about a second before showing the picture.

This is probably the box changing video modes and I wouldn't worry if I were you.


3) When I watch TW for a while then switch to another input (DVD, ReplayTV, etc). A minute after I change, I notice the receiver's front LED displays "boot" and the receiver resets. Can the receiver detect I'm not using it from the cable and reset itself?


I think this is a problem and I recommend trading in this box for a Pace box if possible. It could be the box trying to re-establish the HDCP connection, but it could be a problem.

I haven't heard what the common HD non DVR box is recently. I used to know that it was the Pace 550HD, is it now the Pioneer box?

I haven't heard what the common HD non DVR box is recently. I used to know that it was the Pace 550HD, is it now the Pioneer box?

According to the web site manuals, the non-DVR receivers (like mine) are Pioneer and the HD DVR receivers are from Scientific Atlanta.

Thanks for the response.

// Scott A

If that statement is true, I imagine more antennas will be going up and pointed towards the Dayton towers. It amazes me that little podunk Dayton gets it right more often than the broadcasters in Cincinnati.

Ok the MOST important thing everyone is forgetting or failing to mention is that when the 2009 cutoff of analog OTA happens there will be a SD channel taking bandwidth on ALL transmitters to include Dayton. :) This will allow for those folks that don't have nor need a HDTV to get OTA Digital transmissions. The Digital world for broadcaster isn't always about HDTV. Not every consumer HAS to buy them to recieve TV in the future. So we will have to keep a SD (Subchannel) for those folks. It would be great to think we didn't have to worry about OTA reception at all. Heck we could take all the money for the large Lightning Rod whoops.. large transmitter tower and use it to buy another flexicoder which would allow us to have double the bandwidth.. then we could multiplex even more.. hehe

But seriously.

It's does not matter if it takes bandwidth or not. It MUST be done and it will be done. Look at this way if you want... you can watch Dayton for now and enjoy full 19mb HDTV but your only ruining it for yourself when you will only be getting 15-17mb in the near future from them as well. The SD channels now could be a test, weather radar, weather channel, music, etc.. But there will be a SD channel to mirror normal daily programming as well as HDTV and maybe even the others also!

Not trying to burst any bubbles but what you see now with the subchannels is going to be the future of TV. Unless of course someone drops a load of ca$h on a local affiliate and they can put up another digital transmitter dedicated to a full 19mb HDTV channel.

Weasel

i dont know if I agree with that weasel - dont all atsc recievers have to accept 1080i and 720p and then can output them how they see fit? if thats the case, then 1 hd channel can de downconverted for an old analog tv..

anyways.. I agree that multicasting will not go away until we the consumer speak with our wallets.. - just my 2 cents..

finally, weasel, any word on dd5.1 for wkrc?

jim

For whatever reason I am not receiving 9-1, or 9-2 with my OTA.
Have D* with HD receiver...
Had been getting them just fine up until a week or two ago.
5, 12, 19 and others are fine, but getting a blank screen on 9-1, and 9-2(actually always had been getting blank screen with 9-2 just audio).
Checked the antenna reception meter and it was in the 70's but no audio, no nothing.
Other OTA's are fine.
Any idea what is going on?
Worked pretty well for a while then just noticed a week or two ago that I was getting nothing but a blank screen.

i dont know if I agree with that weasel - dont all atsc recievers have to accept 1080i and 720p and then can output them how they see fit? if thats the case, then 1 hd channel can de downconverted for an old analog tv..

finally, weasel, any word on DD5.1 for wkrc?

jim

Jim,

I have no comment on DD5.1 at this time. Sorry

You maybe correct on your above statement that ATSC will in fact down convert.
I am sure I will get all kinds of poopage on my statements... But it's just my opinion and I have a right to it..lol


Weasel

What d* receiver?? Its been fine on my hd tivo - I would try 10-1 and 10-2

For whatever reason I am not receiving 9-1, or 9-2 with my OTA.
Have D* with HD receiver...
Had been getting them just fine up until a week or two ago.
5, 12, 19 and others are fine, but getting a blank screen on 9-1, and 9-2(actually always had been getting blank screen with 9-2 just audio).
Checked the antenna reception meter and it was in the 70's but no audio, no nothing.
Other OTA's are fine.
Any idea what is going on?
Worked pretty well for a while then just noticed a week or two ago that I was getting nothing but a blank screen.

I don't think it will be required for stations to have a 480i subchannel. All ATSC tuners downconvert any signal to 480i and with the government subsidizing these tuners, I bet they only output 480i. I don't understand why stations think the only way to make money in the future is to have subchannels. I can imagine other interactive features would be much cooler, like interactive kids programming and the like. Much better use of extra bandwidth during non-HD hours. When HD comes on, only HD gets the bandwidth.

Weasel, first thing you need to understand is there is nothing personal about any of this. While you'll certianly find a lot of nonsense and technobabble scattered all over AVS, you'll also find feedback which should be useful to you.

I'm going to restrain myself as much as possible, and be about as nice as I can with the below.

Ok the MOST important thing everyone is forgetting or failing to mention is that when the 2009 cutoff of analog OTA happens there will be a SD channel taking bandwidth on ALL transmitters to include Dayton. :)


If you are talking about a 4x3 SD digital 'simucast' to "replace" the current analog version, Not necessarily, as other than it perhaps being about "black bars" if there isn't a "crop/zoom" function on some receivers, there is really little to no reason for that whatsoever.


This will allow for those folks that don't have nor need a HDTV to get OTA Digital transmissions.


All ATSC receivers can(and do)+will be able to decode all the ATSC formats. I currently in fact output 480i at times from my current receivers to S-VHS VCR's(and even a 13" TV hooked up to one of those VCR's via RF out), via S-Video or composite. I can do about anything I want with the aspect ratio, crop it, or for instance send say, what is 1080i from WKRC-DT to my S-VHS VCR as 480i 16x9 NTSC video(just like a widescreen "anamorphic" DVD, then "stretch it" back out with the display to proper 16x9 on playback.

I think the issue you are actually talking about is all about "black bars", and how many people will be using 16x9 or 4x3 screens, or how many people will say, be able to "crop" out the sides to fill up their 4x3 screens during HD broadcasts/etc. Looking at the Ads, Rex had a 26" CRT 16x9 HD display with internal ATSC tuner over the holidays available for between $300 and $400. At the same time, RCA also has a new 27" 4x3 set with internal ATSC tuner for the same price. Just a question of how long 4x3 displays will be around, and how long it will take 16x9 displays to be more numerous. You'll have to talk to the CEA and consumers about that one.


The Digital world for broadcaster isn't always about HDTV.


No it isn't. It could be about sending a single, less than "so-so" quality SD service OTA and using the rest of your bandwidth for subscription based services, or sending a seperate, HD feed via fiber to the cableco. Just don't expect me to watch, and also don't expect me to agree that that is a proper use for the public airwaves. Neither is a 480i SD simulcast of the same programming at 1080i, either.


So we will have to keep a SD (Subchannel) for those folks.


Wrong. Again(and sorry to repeat what others have said), all OTA ATSC receivers can, and will be able to decode all the ATSC formats - even those $50 converter boxes that are going to be SD only. They also can (and do - any of the 4 I've had anyway) downconvert those and output at 480i over S-video or composite, and I'm sure they'll be making them with RF outputs as well. I can hook my HD recevier's up to my $20 B&W set with composite video outputs on it right now if I want.


It would be great to think we didn't have to worry about OTA reception at all.


I don't think you're worried too much about it. Worrying about meeting "FCC specs" and rules, and keeping the license and avoiding any fines, and/or getting the signal to cable/DBS headends, now that's another matter. With some exceptions, I suspect most broadcasters who are concerned in any way about having a 4x3 SD subchannel/simulcast of the same thing that's there in 1080i(16x9 format of course) have more to do with sending 4x3 SD to cable headends, for their analog and "4x3" cable customers.


Heck we could take all the money for the large Lightning Rod whoops.. large transmitter tower and use it to buy another flexicoder which would allow us to have double the bandwidth.. then we could multiplex even more.. hehe


I think that's probably the road your heading down, anyway. The question is whether the cableco's+sat companies will have any interest in carrying your signal if(when) it becomes the case that the Nets find a way to successfully, and effectively bypass their local affiliates.


Look at this way if you want... you can watch Dayton for now and enjoy full 19mb HDTV but your only ruining it for yourself when you will only be getting 15-17mb in the near future from them as well.

The SD channels now could be a test, weather radar, weather channel, music, etc.. But there will be a SD channel to mirror normal daily programming as well as HDTV and maybe even the others also!

Not trying to burst any bubbles but what you see now with the subchannels is going to be the future of TV. Unless of course someone drops a load of ca$h on a local affiliate and they can put up another digital transmitter dedicated to a full 19mb HDTV channel.

Weasel

What a load of nonsense, and what a strange business would tell the people it depends upon(viewers) to live with "so-so" HD(or so-so SD for that matter), or that we're "ruining it for ourselves" if we won't put up with it. And, no I don't have to put up with it, I have better things to do.


I am sure I will get all kinds of poopage on my statements...


Well, Sometimes you find you'll reap what you sow here ;) .....

I have, time and time again, here and in Dayton thread and elsewhere on AVSforum have done my best to support broadcasters and their efforts and have seen a lot of nonsense thrown around, and a lot of nonsense put on broadcasters which they just don't deserve. But, lately, I'm really wondering why, at times I put so much effort into it.

It's getting harder and harder to support broadcasters when I hear some of the nonsense I've heard lately. I'm also not(and never have) going to "lie" or make up things about what I see and what I think about it when I see "so-so" quality on the screen, either. If you don't like what I see, and my reports aren't useful to you, then go ahead and call it "poopage" if you want ...... kay sa ra sa ra ....


[update: One more thing. Again, if broadcasters fail to think much about the long term future, they may not have much of one. Who, for example is going to want to watch SD once they do get that HD display with internal ATSC/"digital cable ready" tuner or Sat HD STB?" How long did it take to go from 640x480 for PC mointors to XGA and above? I'm sure there are some, but are there many folks still looking at 640x480 VGA on their computer screens? HD is the "way of the future"[had to put that in from "The Aviator"+Howard Hughes character], the cat's out of the bag -- but just like Color TV, it will certianly be a while before "everyone" has it -- what use will the $ broadcasters have spent on "SD subchannels" be then ? .....

If I were a broadcaster/affilate of a network sending 1080i, and looking at plans for future business model, I'd be thinking about HD(including the best HD pics/service I could provide) for the main service, as well the possible profitable uses for available oppurtunistic bandwidth(you could have downloadable HD movies, or 1st run episodes of "CSI" without commercials for a fee for instance) ... If I were a broadcaster affiliate sending 720p, then I'd also have more "extra" bandwidth to work with, for either a SD multicast subchannel, subscription based services, or datacasting/etc .... But, what do I know, right ????? -- BTW, interesting article, including some comments from a CC TV higher up in an article I found posted here today : http://www.freelists.org/archives/opendtv/01-2006/msg00118.html

If I were a broadcaster which chose to implement SD multicast channels now, for whatever reason, I'd send 720p for the HD if it were 1 SD channel, and MAYBE 720p, but probably 480p if it were 2 SD subchannels .... But again, what do I know .... I'm just a "stupid" viewer, right ? sigh .....

[end update]

I wonder if the resolution to WCPO's issues were a new encoder or a fix of the existing one.

The new encoder has not yet been installed. The nice "new" picture is thanks to new settings on the old encoder. They are having lip sync issues with their current HDTV and 5.1 encoders so we will be waiting until the new equipment is installed before we get 5.1 again. The new encoder is supposed to arrive this month, but with installation and testing time it is unlikely to be ready before the superbowl.

Note: post updated/rewritten/reworded because of poor "reading comprehension" on my part, after rereading it again, realized some of my original questions/comments as originally worded were not necessary.

The new encoder has not yet been installed. The nice "new" picture is thanks to new settings on the old encoder.

Thanks for passing along the info from WCPO. I'm certianly glad to see they are being honest and forthright about the issue being fixed without needing the new encoder. Still, I'm still a bit confused about some of that.

For instance, I still do wonder what the problem was, exactly ? For example, if the fix was new encoder settings, what sort of new settings ? - Did it have anything having to do with "macroblocks"(8x8 pixels/16x16 pixels/etc)? And, still wonder why wasn't it a problem prior to the studio move with the "old encoder"(at 1080i 1998~early 2003, at 720p early 2003~Summer 2004) ?? And, why wasn't it a problem(at least I didn't notice the same issue with upconverted SD programming) for anything except ABC HD programming?

Without more specific information available to us, it probably won't be much help if this ever occurs elsewhere and we can pass along any info that might be helful. Should they even happen to pay a shred of a bit of attention to it to begin with - personally I've had both successes and failures in the past in that regard ...


They are having lip sync issues with their current HDTV and 5.1 encoders so we will be waiting until the new equipment is installed before we get 5.1 again.


Interesting. The sync issues with DD 5.1 audio/ABC HD feed seems to be a common occurance among ABC affiliates when they first start implementing DD 5.1. It's fine now from WKEF-DT/ABC HD Dayton, but was also a problem for them at first. The same was true for WDTN-DT, when they first started doing DD 5.1(which wasn't long after they first came on the air)back when they were ABC affiliate in Dayton. I'd also read/heard much the same was true from other markets from other threads or other sources.

you can watch Dayton for now and enjoy full 19mb HDTV but your only ruining it for yourself when you will only be getting 15-17mb in the near future from them as well.

Like Jeff said, this isn't personal at all: but I just don't comprehend the idea of taking something that *requires* 19mb and cramming it into 15mb. It's the visual equivalent of selling me a DVD-A or SACD, only to find it contains highly compressed MP3 files. If CBS.2 comes about, the network should rethink its policy on 1080i and go with 720p, if not 480p.

I think the above posts made it pretty clear that SD simulcasts are a rundant waste of bandwidth. I would hope that if I'm to suffer through pixelated HD its at least for some unique programming. I do find myself watching The Tube quite alot.

My question: this is all about OTA-ATSC. Do subchannels affect clarity on cable? If they don't, nothing is stopping broadcasters from multicasting like crazy to get cable carriage at the sacrifice of viewable OTA. Should I switch back to my QAM tuner?

what we get ota is the exact (or supposed to be) thing cable and dbs gets

So WCPO is using the old encoder? I have noticed that DD5.1 hasn't been active lately. So what will the new encoder do? Better management of bandwidth of the 2 channels? Integrated control of DD5.1 and "flipping the switch"?

I do find myself watching The Tube quite alot.


Very cool some of the stuff they have on there ... "Heros and Villians" from "Smile", Some stuff from "The Who" I've never seen before/etc/etc .... Just too bad it doesn't look so great.

I'm not against multicasting at all, when it's done right. Sometimes, I even watch some of it when it isn't done right. In addition to The Tube, I watch or use 9 Weather Tracker, KET+ThinkTV's SD subchannels quite often -- and, if it's content I really want to watch(although I'll often just opt for a DVD version instead, when possible), I'll even watch it from a snowy, SD analog station from 70 miles away.

HOWEVER, the thing is, I'd RATHER watch a snowy SD analog version than a HD version chock full of compression artifacts during bandwidth demanding portions of programming! That's just me, as "digital looking" artifacts really look ugly to me - and, also, when I am "used to" what HD is supposed to look like, to me, there's just not much point in having it, or watching it if it doesn't look like it's supposed to (at all times). I guess when you can see things more clearly, to me it's just annoying as *ell to have it go all "blurry", or be "soft" or turn into little blocks .... And, there ain't that much content that airs these days on TV(OTA, or for that matter via Pay TV either) that I care that much about, anyway.

What d* receiver?? Its been fine on my hd tivo - I would try 10-1 and 10-2
No name brand but the box it came in says Model H10.
Weird...when I tune to 9-1, the guide appears with what is showing...same for 9-2, but no audio or video.

h10 is a directv (which is rasing rates again!!) brand - and it sucks.. I had it and it would never tune 9-2 . try a hard reset of the unit (button behind the card slot door)

h10 is a directv (which is rasing rates again!!) brand - and it sucks.. I had it and it would never tune 9-2 . try a hard reset of the unit (button behind the card slot door)
Good news...I rescanned and I was able to p/u 9.1 and now have audio and video for 9.2.

Could you elaborate on the D* raising rates again?

I wouldn't normally do this, but I'm going to have to make another comment on the below, as it just makes my blood boil.

Heck we could take all the money for the large Lightning Rod whoops.. large transmitter tower and use it to buy another flexicoder which would allow us to have double the bandwidth..

Broadcasters who don't want to be broadcasters need to get off our public airwaves. There are better things it can be used for.

Your license to use those public airwaves wasn't granted to you for the sole purpose of "making money", or for serving the cable company, or so NAB can lobby for "multicast-must carry" from the cablecos, it was granted so you could provide a service(s) to the public, and yes that can include entertainment, and HD as well as "breaking weather alerts".

http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=53343

a$$holes

Good news...I rescanned and I was able to p/u 9.1 and now have audio and video for 9.2.

Could you elaborate on the D* raising rates again?

Weasel;

With ratings dropping on the OTA networks as it is, this would probably end up just tanking the ratings even more. When there are other viable HD options (admittedly, on subscription services like DBS and cable), people will just watch those instead. I already find myself watching ESPNHD, HDNet/Movies, DiscoveryHD, etc., more than I watch all the OTA networks combined as it is. I pretty much only watch sports on the big 4 (nothing on the other 2 networks) as it is, and this will just push me further away.

http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=53343

a$$holes


Good thing I went with DiSH :)
Not like it matters.

But on the other note. Got me a 26" LCD so need to get an OTA tuner. Can anyone recommend one with DVI output? Or should I get one of them Voom boxes that still works for about a 100?

for $100 I would get the voom box... you will be hard pressed to find an atsc tuner for less than that.

jim

Good thing I went with DiSH :)
Not like it matters.


Hate to tell you this, but E* rose rates last year, and is doing it again this year. It was announced on Charlie chat a couple of weeks ago :

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=50581

Lost was not in 5.1 tonight. The jaggies are gone though :)

That's great but why would they adjust or fix an encoder that is weeks away from being thrown on the scrap heap? Is it possible that this fix did not involve the encoder?

Kind of makes me hope that they don't try to rush the new encoder as I fear they may screw up their recently achieved nice picture for the Super Bowl.

Is it possible that this fix did not involve the encoder?Not likely as WCPO said they are on the same encoder, but with different settings.
Kind of makes me hope that they don't try to rush the new encoder as I fear they may screw up their recently achieved nice picture for the Super Bowl.After the encoder is installed, the manufacturer is sending out a rep to assist in configuration. Once that's done I believe they will take the new encoder live. This should minimize problems such as the jaggie issue.

I don't know what may have happened at WCPO, but I wonder if there was a change in management of some kind as they really seem to have a completely different attitude. The person I have talked to has been nice and very open about the situation which I feel is completely different from before.

Not likely as WCPO said they are on the same encoder, but with different settings.


I disagree. We need more info than that. Please answer the questions I submitted to you in my previous reply.

Didn't ANYONE pay any attention whasoever to what dr1394 found, and some of my and Doc's posts on this issue over the past year and a half, and what actually happened "on screen" when the issue was occuring for ABC HD which didn't happen(with the same encoder) during non ABC HD programming?

I think folks REALLY need to pay more attention if this forum is to be useful.


After the encoder is installed, the manufacturer is sending out a rep to assist in configuration. Once that's done I believe they will take the new encoder live. This should minimize problems such as the jaggie issue.


What in the world are you talking about? The issue has already been FIXED.

I disagree. We need more info than that. Please answer the questions I submitted to you in my previous reply.

Didn't ANYONE pay any attention whasoever to what dr1394 found, and some of my and Doc's posts on this issue over the past year and a half, and what actually happened "on screen" when the issue was occuring for ABC HD which didn't happen(with the same encoder) during non ABC HD programming?

I think folks REALLY need to pay more attention if this forum is to be useful.

What in the world are you talking about? The issue has already been FIXED.

I know your blood is still boiling Nitewatchman, but do you really think Engineers at the local stations owe you information about the maintenance that they do? 3000 posts does not make you the tri-state Director of Engineering!!

He's talking about the installation of the new encoder about to be installed, not the existing one.

I disagree. We need more info than that. Please answer the questions I submitted to you in my previous reply:

For instance, I still do wonder what the problem was, exactly ? For example, if the fix was new encoder settings, what sort of new settings ? - Did it have anything having to do with "macroblocks"(8x8 pixels/16x16 pixels/etc)? And, still wonder why wasn't it a problem prior to the studio move with the "old encoder"(at 1080i 1998~early 2003, at 720p early 2003~Summer 2004) ?? And, why wasn't it a problem(at least I didn't notice the same issue with upconverted SD programming) for anything except ABC HD programming?
I am certainly no expert on how HDTV transmission encoders work and am left to take the information I am given by people that are experts, which I admit is very little.

Didn't ANYONE pay any attention whasoever to what dr1394 found, and some of my and Doc's posts on this issue over the past year and a half, and what actually happened "on screen" when the issue was occuring for ABC HD which didn't happen(with the same encoder) during non ABC HD programming?

I think folks REALLY need to pay more attention if this forum is to be useful.
YES, we all heard it ad nauseam. My statements are assuming that what i've been told by WCPO is true which may contridict your findings. I believe this only contradicts your findings if all programming is handled the same way by the encoder.

What if the encoder doesn't process non HD programming the same way it processes HD programming? Then setting changes made in the encoder could explain the solution any why it only affected HD programming.

I have sent an additional email to WCPO in hopes that they can explain what exactly was changed to solve the problem. We'll see what kind of response they give me.


What in the world are you talking about? The issue has already been FIXED.
Sea Ray was concerned that if they rush through the installation and configuration of the new encoder we could end up with picture problems again. What I was trying to say is having a manufacturer rep come out should minimize configuration issues that could lead to picture problems like jaggies.

He's talking about the installation of the new encoder about to be installed, not the existing one.

Sorry I wasn't more clear. You evidently misunderstood. I quoted the entire paragraph, but when I said "this issue has been fixed" I was specifically referring to the below portion of it :


This should minimize problems such as the jaggie issue.


Now, I do understand they are saying problems "such as" the jaggies issue, such as with other possible, "similar" issues. But, I would like to learn more about that, as all I've heard is from them is that "new" encoder settings fixed the "jaggies" issue, and that doesn't tell me much, and doesn't explain why there was no "jaggies"/downsampling issue with ABC HD(with it sending 1080i or 720p) or otherwise their current encoder from 1998 until after the summer of their studio move, or after their studio move with programming not orginating from ABC HD feed that I saw.

I am certainly no expert on how HDTV transmission encoders work and am left to take the information I am given by people that are experts, which I admit is very little.


I'm certianly not professing to be an expert, either, but (and I don't mean anything personal or flammatory about this) I don't think you'll find many broadcast engineers who are "experts" about MPEG2 encoding/decoding issues, or for that matter ATSC/DTV issues, either. Part of that is because they may have had their hands full with other things and may not have had the time or resources available to get everything they need ... I do know there are a few of the engineers in the area who "really know what they are doing" when it comes to ATSC/DTV(and I'm sure there are more than that).

Instead of making assumptions about this or that, I can only comment on the information we have available, what I see, and info I'm aware of(and I have studied various ATSC/MPEG2 documents farily extensively/etc) and I only want to learn more, which is part of the reason I ask questions about it. I think This has, in the past been more of a technically "orientated" forum, and that's the sort of stuff I'm interested in(not saying everything else we talk about isn't relavent, either) ... Maybe that's not a good way to be here at AVSforum these days, I don't know, but that's just the way I am about this sort of thing ....


My statements are assuming that what i've been told by WCPO is true


If that's what you believe that's fine, but you made a definitive statement about such and such being "not likely", evidently based upon your assumptions - I don't see anything wrong with asking for more facts to back up your statement, It's part of what has made AVSforum in the past a great resource for information. If you would have just said "WCPO said it was their encoder settings, and I believe that's the case", I might not agree with your "belief" without having more information than we have available, but I would have been fine with that.

You can believe it or not, but I can tell you I have done this sort of thing enough to have learned better than to assume much of anything about this sort of thing, just simple "misunderstanding" can even go a long way in causing "problems" at times. And, I'm not saying they were, or are "lying", but I can only base my posts on the facts which are available, and I am interested in finding out more about for instance, why it took 1.5 years for them to discover the new encoder settings they say they needed to "fix" the jaggies issue.


What if the encoder doesn't process non HD programming the same way it processes HD programming? Then setting changes made in the encoder could explain the solution any why it only affected HD programming.


Excellent questions, and those are questions I've thought about as well, but haven't posted about. I also heard them say they were using a new router at the new studio location and wondered about that as well.

However, again, keep in mind when asking those questions it wasn't a problem, at least that anyone noticed with ABC HD programming from WCPO-DT prior to the studio move, including when they were sending 720p during 2003~2004 MNF HD season.


I have sent an additional email to WCPO in hopes that they can explain what exactly was changed to solve the problem. We'll see what kind of response they give me.


Thanks, appreciate it. Thought about asking them myself, but as I've said before, I sort of gave up on that for reasons I've noted previously.


Sea Ray was concerned that if they rush through the installation and configuration of the new encoder we could end up with picture problems again. What I was trying to say is having a manufacturer rep come out should minimize configuration issues that could lead to picture problems like jaggies.

As I noted in my above response to tvnick, I wasn't taking issue with THAT part of what you are saying, more or less .......

This is hard to express properly ... but I'll try ... What I'm trying to get at is, It's hard for me to "think" about the encoder/certian encoder settings involving the "jaggies" issue(or other such issues "like" the jaggies), or how a "new" encoder will be "better" for such things --- If I have no definitive information about the issue, nor understanding concerning exactly why the encoder/or certian encoder settings involved "were" the cause of it, even though, as also mentioned(again) in my reply to TVnick, this wasn't a problem for them, or the encoder/encoder settings(at 720p or 1080i) BEFORE the studio move ...

BTW, another reason why your comment caught my eye is that I would also point out I heard similar response from them(WCPO DOE) about a year ago concerning Motorla coming to WCPO in April to "calibrate" and adjust their current(old) encoder ... He asked me to contact him in May and see If I saw a difference, I did and he said "The encoder upgrades are scheduled for August" ... So, Don't know if the calibration/upgrades of the GI/Motorla by motorla ever happened or not ...

I wouldn't normally do this, but I'm going to have to make another comment on the below, as it just makes my blood boil.



Broadcasters who don't want to be broadcasters need to get off our public airwaves. There are better things it can be used for.

Your license to use those public airwaves wasn't granted to you for the sole purpose of "making money", or for serving the cable company, or so NAB can lobby for "multicast-must carry" from the cablecos, it was granted so you could provide a service(s) to the public, and yes that can include entertainment, and HD as well as "breaking weather alerts".


Everyone NEEDS to remember I am a regular guy and as the signature says.

MY OPINION no one else's. The "your" and "you" in the message's as well as the "We" and "Our" in mine should have been left out.

I wasn't trying to make anyone's blood boil. It's was my intent to say that broadcaster's will more then likely try to use subchannel's to make additional revenue in the future so "we" the viewers (since I also enjoy HD as much as everyone else) have to get used to it.

As a Former Marine of 13 years I apply the same principles I did in the Corps and I take great pride and put alot of effort into making sure the quality of the product that I work on is the best possible for all, as I am sure many others do.

Next time maybe I will just continue to lurk and not comment. :)

Weasel

It's wasn't personal but it seems as though it has become a bit personal.

Everyone NEEDS to remember I am a regular guy and as the signature says.


We're all regular guys! Just imagine we are sitting around having a few cold ones discussing things, we're not allways going to agree ....



MY OPINION no one else's.


Absolutely, we're all entitled to them. And, you're not the only one in the broadcast industry who feels that way. I've heard it all before, and it made my blood boil then, still does. Sorry, that's just MY "regular guy" opinion.


It's wasn't personal but it seems as though it has become a bit personal.

Not meant personally at all -- I have other friends I disagree with all the time, and things can get quite heated -- I think we end up benefiting from hearing others perspectives, just as is the case, here hopefully.

It's not you personally at all, it's only what you wrote that I was commenting on. Big difference.

Y'all lost me at "beer." I say let's have some and some laughs. I'm buying. Of course, you may need a plane. I'm still in Michigan, y'know :D

Sorry for the add'l post - was trying to get logged off and finshed the last repsonse to weasel too quick ...


It's was my intent to say that broadcaster's will more then likely try to use subchannel's to make additional revenue


I agree 100% with this part, might not be "subchannels" though. Might be datacasting, or whatever. And, really I'm all for broadcasters making $, they're running a business and that's what they NEED to do.

Also, it doesn't HAVE to make the HD look bad. There are sometimes other options, such as sending 720p if you're going to multicast.


in the future so "we" the viewers (since I also enjoy HD as much as everyone else) have to get used to it.


Don't agree with that part, if we don't like what we see, we the viewers have other options as well.


As a Former Marine of 13 years I apply the same principles I did in the Corps and I take great pride and put alot of effort into making sure the quality of the product that I work on is the best possible for all, as I am sure many others do.


Good for you. Appreicate your service in the armed forces, BTW, and your efforts at WKRC-DT.

I understand it's difficult to come here, after doing your best to make things "as best as possible" and see people call your subchannel "stupid", or talk about redudced HD quality. But there's just NO escaping the fact that when not enough bandwidth is allocated/too high compression ratio is used, HD quality has problems. Again, it's NOT personal at all, we're just commenting on what we see, and that at least for now, folks do often have the option to receive higher quality CBS HD pictures(such as during bandwidth demanding sections of programming) from stations in nearby markets, such as WHIO-DT.


Next time maybe I will just continue to lurk and not comment.


No way, don't do that. We are grateful for your participiation, and I for one would like to see you, and others from the broadcast industry post here MORE often, not less. For instance, I would venture to guess your comments here have likely helped many folks gain a better understanding of the perspective of broadcasters concerning DTV/HD issues.

Y'all lost me at "beer." I say let's have some and some laughs. I'm buying. Of course, you may need a plane. I'm still in Michigan, y'know :D

I''ll fire up the Cessna (Ok, it's just a flightsim, but it's the thought that counts ) ... ;)

Hit the Big 39 today here, so I gotta sign off now and start doing some sort of celebrating or something ...

Happy Birthday Jeff! Thanks for bringing so much insight to this forum!

No way, don't do that. We are grateful for your participiation, and I for one would like to see you, and others from the broadcast industry post here MORE often, not less. For instance, I would venture to guess your comments here have likely helped many folks gain a better understanding of the perspective of broadcasters concerning DTV/HD issues.

Ok I will stay.. lol

and BTW 12.2 is supposed to look poor... it is a test channel...future programming will fill that space. I don't know when, what or why.. but I am sure it's coming someday. I monitor this forum to see what you all think when I make changes. I don't announce any changes for a reason.. If I say "hey I changed something what do you think" people (me included) see things that aren't always obvious unless they are pointed out.

It's the message that say something like - "Hey did anybody else notice xxxx some thing change over there?" then I can get a good grasp that the changes are affecting the quality of the product.

I don't take it personally at all.. just giving you a hard time Jeff... :)

Weasel

Chrismo, Thanks. It's funny, but never even thought about it until now there's a 4-0 coming up "soon" .....


I know your blood is still boiling Nitewatchman, but do you really think Engineers at the local stations owe you information about the maintenance that they do? 3000 posts does not make you the tri-state Director of Engineering!!


Sorry read your post before your update and missed this part.

My, what professionalism. No, You, or stations don't owe me anything in that regard, it's your operation or "business" not mine.

I asked a question, if you choose to not answer it, it's fine, but I think it is only courteous thing to do to provide at least some sort of response when someone asks you a question here. That being said, I do appreciate honesty, and I don't like it when "playing games" gets involved. I simply won't tolerate it. I will GLADLY and happily admit when I'm wrong, and while I do not profess to be an "engineering expert", I'm not an "idiot" about such things either.

Just please be honest+tell me something that makes sense and we don't have any sort of problem. If that's "sorry, I can't comment on that", that's fine. If you're going to completely ignore my comments, or pay no attention to them whatsoever and chalk it up to comments from a "stupid viewer", then please be honest about that as well. If you don't want my "input" then say so. However, Your station puts a signal out on airwaves that partly belong to ME, and I have the right to say what I think about what you are doing, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

This is a place where we come to share information and increase our knowledge about issues related to DTV/HD, which happen to be subjects I'm interested in. I do tend to try to pass along info in a manner such that hopefully less-technically inclined folks may gain a better understanding.

In the past it has been the case that we've been able to pass along info when stations have had problems(for example, PSIP configuration issues, sometimes effecting only certian receiver models) which have cropped up at other stations, and we've been able to "help out" the stations by passing the info along. SOME of us actually care about broadcasting+OTA, and are glad when we can be of some assistance to station engineers.

I agree that "3,000 posts" doesn't mean anything, but hopefully at least some of what I say does. I don't recall anywhere saying, or suggesting I'm the "know it all" about anything", including engineering "issues". I allways WELCOME and in fact encourage any correction of any mistakes or incorrect info/etc. I may inadvertantly provide in my posts.

Good day sir.

just giving you a hard to Jeff... :)

Weasel

No big deal, I'm used to it .... It's just that here, USUALLY it's because I'm defending broadcasters, not "arguing" with them ....

I'm there.. as long as you are buying good beer Doc.. that Iron City crap just doesnt cut it any more :)


Y'all lost me at "beer." I say let's have some and some laughs. I'm buying. Of course, you may need a plane. I'm still in Michigan, y'know :D

I'm there.. as long as you are buying good beer Doc.. that Iron City crap just doesnt cut it any more :)Ahrn City Light was the best I could handle. I'm happy to be back in the land of LaBatts. ON TAP.

And I'm older than JEFF?!?! [moderator hat off] WTF??[moderator hat back on]. Seriously, Happy Birthday, Jeff.

Doc

I am in for a drink. I may not be of age, but does that really matter? Nothing I write is personal, just what I think should be done. I think the best picture quality would do more for a station than a subchannel.

Just have to toss my 2¢ worth on a few of these topics.

First let me say that I'm glad everyone has agreed to disagree. This exchange of ideas and information is a very good thing. I wouldn't know crap about DTV, HDTV, D*, E*, etc. if it wasn't for this forum and I'm grateful to all who post here.

Now, as to getting used to crappy HD, IMO that dog won't hunt and i belive that dogs that don't hunt get shot. NO ONE is going to be happy that they have spent $600+ on a TV and have it look like crap. That being said most people don't know what true, full BW HDTV looks like. Watching football this year has shown me that I'd rather watch a crappy game on WXIX than watch a good game on WKRC. Why? Because it looks better on my TV. I haven't even invited anyone over to watch the superbowl because WCPO is still an unknown at this point and if something happens to bring back the jaggies or they develop some other issue with the upgrade I won't be watching it.

Third, I'd love to know what happened with WCPO's settings. Yes, it will be over my head, I won't be able to understand half of it but that information exchange is needed and expected in forums such as these. If people don't have anything useful to contribute or an answer they need I'm not sure why they would post in the first place. Unless it was to be polite by sharing the beer.

Now on to a different matter. The only thing that I find really annoying with WRKC's signal besides compression artifacts is that shifting of sharpness that sometimes happens. It almost looks as if the camera is out of focus and then in 1-2 seconds it refocuses and the picture looks much better. Don't know what that is or know if anyone else has noticed it but it bugs the crap outta me. I suppose it may be the bandwidth getting kicked back up after coming out of a commercial or something along those lines.

Lastly, I want to say thanks again to everyone involved in AVS and esp. the forums for Cinci and Dayton. Jeff, Weasel, and all you guys need to keep this going. The only way this place would get better is if everyone in the area who had HDTV's were involved. They could learn what DTV is all about and no doubt some of them could enlighten us in some areas. Reminds me of the old educational tv saying "knowledge is power", didn't realise as a kid just how true that is.

Just have to toss my 2¢ worth on a few of these topics.

First let me say that I'm glad everyone has agreed to disagree. This exchange of ideas and information is a very good thing. I wouldn't know crap about DTV, HDTV, D*, E*, etc. if it wasn't for this forum and I'm grateful to all who post here.

Now, as to getting used to crappy HD, IMO that dog won't hunt and i belive that dogs that don't hunt get shot. NO ONE is going to be happy that they have spent $600+ on a TV and have it look like crap. That being said most people don't know what true, full BW HDTV looks like. Watching football this year has shown me that I'd rather watch a crappy game on WXIX than watch a good game on WKRC. Why? Because it looks better on my TV. I haven't even invited anyone over to watch the superbowl because WCPO is still an unknown at this point and if something happens to bring back the jaggies or they develop some other issue with the upgrade I won't be watching it.

Third, I'd love to know what happened with WCPO's settings. Yes, it will be over my head, I won't be able to understand half of it but that information exchange is needed and expected in forums such as these. If people don't have anything useful to contribute or an answer they need I'm not sure why they would post in the first place. Unless it was to be polite by sharing the beer.

Now on to a different matter. The only thing that I find really annoying with WRKC's signal besides compression artifacts is that shifting of sharpness that sometimes happens. It almost looks as if the camera is out of focus and then in 1-2 seconds it refocuses and the picture looks much better. Don't know what that is or know if anyone else has noticed it but it bugs the crap outta me. I suppose it may be the bandwidth getting kicked back up after coming out of a commercial or something along those lines.

Lastly, I want to say thanks again to everyone involved in AVS and esp. the forums for Cinci and Dayton. Jeff, Weasel, and all you guys need to keep this going. The only way this place would get better is if everyone in the area who had HDTV's were involved. They could learn what DTV is all about and no doubt some of them could enlighten us in some areas. Reminds me of the old educational tv saying "knowledge is power", didn't realise as a kid just how true that is.

You bring up some good points Shawn. I can't comment on WKRC because I rarely watch it - I've usually got my switcher set to pull in the Dayton equivalent which puts out a very good HD picture. I can't recall if you're using an antenna or not but I'm assuming you have one. Have you tried installing a second antenna with a remote a/b coax switcher? I pick up Dayton channels crystal clear here just down the road from you.

Cokebear - the shifting focus is a cbs issue, not a WKRC issue.. WHIO out of dayton does the same thing. It bugs me too.. sometimes CBS HD is absolutly flawless.. other times, its like watching a drunk try to manually focus a camera :)

jim



Now on to a different matter. The only thing that I find really annoying with WRKC's signal besides compression artifacts is that shifting of sharpness that sometimes happens. It almost looks as if the camera is out of focus and then in 1-2 seconds it refocuses and the picture looks much better. Don't know what that is or know if anyone else has noticed it but it bugs the crap outta me. I suppose it may be the bandwidth getting kicked back up after coming out of a commercial or something along those lines.

Cokebear - the shifting focus is a cbs issue, not a WKRC issue.. WHIO out of dayton does the same thing. It bugs me too.. sometimes CBS HD is absolutly flawless.. other times, its like watching a drunk try to manually focus a camera :)

jim

and, I thought it was ME that was drunk that was causing the problem -- ;)

Is it something that is effecting ALL CBS affilates? Thought I'd read something about it being a issue that may be related to Harris flexicoder and certian encoder settings/etc.

Don't seem to have noticed it as much from WHIO-DT as is the case with WKRC-DT here, but have seen it there as well. Columbus is coming in here right now, I'll have to remember to check CBS stations WBNS-DT Columbus or maybe WKYT-DT Lexington(which transcodes to 720p for broadcast because of their SD subchannel(UPN) when they're coming in during football(which is when I notice it most often) sometime. Problem is, I don't usually mess with tuning around for DX when I'm watching football ....

There was a thread on this long ago that I think Bob Ross from CBS and I think some other affilaite engineers and those in the know particpated in, and If I recall correctly there was some info(don't remember how "proven" it was) in that thread related to the issue perhaps being involved with stations using Harris Flexicoders and certian encoder "settings"/etc. Not sure, but I think both WKRC+WHIO may be using flexicoders.

Might be remembering it wrong, and had planned to but forgot about it, but I'm also pretty sure I sent either a note to WKRC's feedback form or Weasel a PM around the time with link to that thread about it, don't know if they found out anything about it or not, or if this issue may be what we're seeing. There is also some sort of "green overlay"/Green tint during CBS HD" thread that was over in programming area with some discussion along the same lines, never had/took the time to read much of it, although again I think some folks from CBS were monitoring it or posting there -- allways SO many things to do ....

and, I thought it was ME that was drunk that was causing the problem -- ;) ... No, we see it, too. And, being an O&O, we've got all the latest toys. Still does it.

I believe it is the flexicoder and fixing it requires the station engineers to change from the automatic mode to a manual mode and adjust some settings. There was discussion on this issue back in March during March Madness. Both WKRC and WHIO have this issue. I tried to get the info needed to fix the issue, but never got a response.

You bring up some good points Shawn. I can't comment on WKRC because I rarely watch it - I've usually got my switcher set to pull in the Dayton equivalent which puts out a very good HD picture. I can't recall if you're using an antenna or not but I'm assuming you have one. Have you tried installing a second antenna with a remote a/b coax switcher? I pick up Dayton channels crystal clear here just down the road from you.

Antenna wasn't a vuable option here (apartment) so I had to go with TWC, QAM looks best but most of the time I am using the 8300box.

Glad I'm not the only one seeing the focusing issue. Have to say though that I don't see the green tint or if I do see it, it's so slight I wouldn't have an issue with it unless I had spent a bit of money to have my set calibrated by a pro.

cokebear,

the green tint issue I'm talking about is an "extremely" "slight" issue, not really a significant color accuracy/color decoding issue, really, and, what one might see from it(or not), or how different setups might experience the issue(if at all) may depend upon how color/color decoder is "set up" on your set. And, Only way you would be able to see it is to compare with another source, and even then, you'd probably only notice it during certian programming/certian scenes.

Pretty much impossible to see it during NFL HD football for instance. I find it most noticable during yery dark scenes, when you can say, see a slight difference between WKRC-DT and WKRC analog, or CBS HD/WKRC-DT vs. WHIO-DT in the slight "hue" change of say, a dark suit someone is wearing.

No big deal, not significant enough to "*itch and moan about, just reporting that I can 'detect" it, and it is there, at least on my "sets/etc" ...

Does anyone have a reliable source for what upcoming sports will be shown in HD? I was checking on hdsports.com about the UNC tarheel game on saturday and they list cbs as broadcasting the in hd. when I checked the listing on titantv.com for this area and they had the broadcast list in SD. I hate to think channel 12 would broadcast games in sd when there is a national HD feed available. any ideas?

Jeff

Titan TV often gets 'HD' wrong. The best I have found is

http://www.hdsportsguide.com

You can slice the data a few ways and if you're into RSS feeds theirs is pretty useful.


peace . . .





Does anyone have a reliable source for what upcoming sports will be shown in HD? I was checking on hdsports.com about the UNC tarheel game on saturday and they list cbs as broadcasting the in hd. when I checked the listing on titantv.com for this area and they had the broadcast list in SD. I hate to think channel 12 would broadcast games in sd when there is a national HD feed available. any ideas?

Jeff

and BTW 12.2 is supposed to look poor... it is a test channel...future programming will fill that space. I don't know when, what or why.. but I am sure it's coming someday. I monitor this forum to see what you all think when I make changes. I don't announce any changes for a reason.

Weasel

Personally, I sure wish that WKRC would put back the weather RADAR until they decide what they are going to do with 12.2. It came in handy when you wanted to take a quick view before going out or getting ready to work in the yard. Maybe the marketing folks could get some companies to sponsor it and put in a few ads to help pay for it.

Personally, I sure wish that WKRC would put back the weather RADAR until they decide what they are going to do with 12.2. It came in handy when you wanted to take a quick view before going out or getting ready to work in the yard. Maybe the marketing folks could get some companies to sponsor it and put in a few ads to help pay for it.

Personally I wouldn't mind one sub-channel devoted to weather but 3 is a little much.

Have a few questions that involve differences in ATSC vs. NTSC standards for color that perhaps the engineers, or anyone else in the know who follows this thread may be able to help me with.

My understanding is, that 720p+1080i use ATSC "colorspace" which is different from NTSC, and therefore values for color a color decoder in a set. Or by a STB, perhaps in some cases - such as a STB that is downcoverting 1080i to 480i via Composite or S-video outputs. As the set should be able to provide accurate colors for say, a 480i or p NTSC composite/component video signal from DVD using NTSC standard for color, and should also provide accurate color given the different "values" it would get from 720p/1080i HD sources.

Question #1 : So, if It's ATSC Colorspace color decoder on my end has to process correctly for HD programming, say vs NTSC for the analog station : I assume it's ATSC, but to be sure .... When a station upconverts their SD programming to 720p or 1080i, by the time it gets to my set's color decoder, Is it ATSC or NTSC color specs/colorspace or ATSC standard color?

Question #2: Do ATSC 480p and 480i formats use ATSC or NTSC Colorspace, and/or do or can they use both?

Question #3: In regards to question #2 - Are the local stations which are sending 480i using NTSC or ATSC Colorspace?

Question #4: With ATSC signals -- is the difference in NTSC/ATSC colorspace handled by : A). metadata/flags which hopefully the set or STB can accurately accomodate -- or, is it B). More something along the lines that 1080i/720p use ATSC colorspace+any set(or STB than downconverts to NTSC SD) that does 1080i or 720p should be able to handle that correctly+in a different way from NTSC?, or is it C.) Both A+B can be used ?

Question #5: In general, is consumer equipment handling the differences between NTSC/ATSC colorspace properly, and are there many exceptions/equipment that doesn't ?

:update

Oh -- DO note that I'm interested in these things for issues related to my equipment, and also how consumer equipment handles this stuff in general .. NOT because I'm interested so much because I'm interested in finding out every little detail about what the stations engineering folks are doing are doing .. however, if I know a little bit about what the stations are doing, it tells me a bit about how my equipment is handling it ....

I was going to post some of the details concerning my equipment and certian service menu settings/etc, that explains more specifically why I am interested in asking some of these questions, but it got rather long and I decided it shouldn't be necessary to post all that --- I did save those comments however, and if anyone wants or needs to know a little about why I'm interested in the answers to above questions, PM me and I'd be happy to provide it.

:end update

Thanks ahead of time for any thoughts/answers/comments/etc.

Everyone NEEDS to remember I am a regular guy and as the signature says.

MY OPINION no one else's. The "your" and "you" in the message's as well as the "We" and "Our" in mine should have been left out.

I wasn't trying to make anyone's blood boil. It's was my intent to say that broadcaster's will more then likely try to use subchannel's to make additional revenue in the future so "we" the viewers (since I also enjoy HD as much as everyone else) have to get used to it.

As a Former Marine of 13 years I apply the same principles I did in the Corps and I take great pride and put alot of effort into making sure the quality of the product that I work on is the best possible for all, as I am sure many others do.

Next time maybe I will just continue to lurk and not comment. :)

Weasel

It's wasn't personal but it seems as though it has become a bit personal.


Weasel,

Would you say that a lot of broadcasters view OTA transmission as an annoyance that they have to put up with to get must carry? For me the biggest advantage the broadcasters have is that they are free and get 100% penetration into thier market. I would hate to see free tv go away. Especially since I'm 40 yrs old and have had cable for 3 months my entire life.

Anyone see the news about WB and UPN merging? I'll bet WBQC ends up out in the cold on this one.

Anyone see the news about WB and UPN merging? I'll bet WBQC ends up out in the cold on this one.


Yes. Here is the link (http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.asp?feed=OBR&Date=20060124&ID=5442749) for those who haven't seen it. Supposedly going to be in place by September, in time for the 2006 season.

It seems that WSTR-64 will become the CW Cincinnati affiliate. WBQC more than likely will become a independent. It'll be nice to see former UPN programming in HD. I wonder if this will further delay ch 38's plans to go digital?

I really hope WBQC-CA can make it. I've been watching Block's stations since the W25AI days .....

OT a bit perhaps, but speaking of LP stations, I've noticed analog W36DG (previously W61DE) TBN low power translator, Cincinnati has apparently had some issues with some garbage in their video signal the past couple of weeks.

I wonder if this will further delay ch 38's plans to go digital?

I've been periodically checking to see if they've filed an application with FCC to apply for a 2nd digital companion channel or a "flash cut"(on channel) application, but haven't seen anything show up from them yet. I know FCC released a notice some time ago saying they'd opened the filing window for LP/Class A stations wanting a 2nd digital companion channel, and in that notice they said they'd also "soon" be opening filing window for stations to file flash cut applications(don't know if that filing window has opened yet though).

You can go to this link ( http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_sear.htm ) : and :

#1) In the drop down box labeled "service" select both(hold down CTRL key to make multiple selections) "Digital TV Translator or LPTV station" and "Digital Class A Television"

#2). In the drop down box labeld "Application Type" select both "digital flash cut", and "digital companion channel"

#3) Click on "Submit application search" button near bottom of forum.

#4) A list with a bunch of info+dates/etc will pop up of all the LPTV/Class A/Translator stations which have filed applications for Digital Companion channel or Flash cut so far. The applications themselves in PDF format(I think acrobat opens anyway) are also available via links in that list. Note that as of right now, only 23 stations(out of 1000's of LP stations in US) have filed applications seeking 2nd digital companion channel.

It looks like WBCQ is already preparing for life without a network. I've been wacthing them as long as Time-Warner has carried them and always felt like TW screwed them over by carrying only the UPN programs.

I found this on the "Hot Off The Press" forum here at AVS:

About Television
NATPE Conventioneers Speculate on Future of UPN, WB Stations

By Christopher Lisotta TVWeek.com January 24, 2006

.
.
.

Not all stations that lose network affiliation are necessarily losers, said Matthew Gray, station manager for UPN affiliate WBQC-TV in Cincinnati.

If his station becomes independent, "That just means that some of the programs out there that we have an optional second run on, we may be more inclined to move that to prime Monday to Fridays," he said.

One of the rumors hitting the floor Tuesday was that syndicators with off-network programming available for fall 2007 might move up their schedules and make content available this fall, with Debmar-Mercury's "The Dead Zone" being touted as a prime candidate.


http://www.tvweek.com/news.cms?newsId=9265

Yep, I can remember watching The WB on ch 25 when the network started. WSTR-64 was a UPN affiliate for Sinclair pulled them off.

There was an article in today's Cincinnati Enquirer and Elliott Block, owner of WBQC, said that he is sure that the CW network will go to channel 64. He downplayed the lost of UPN, which provides only 10 hours of programming a week to his station. He expects Hollywood stuidios to offer prime-time syndicated series to stations losing WB or UPN.

The Cincinnati Enquirer article is here: http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060125/BIZ01/601250316/1076

Hey, any of you guys use an old Voom receiver for OTA?

I got mine but have some issues.
Just wanted to see if I can cross test my receiver.

Here is what I posted on a Voom forum....:
http://www.winnfreenet.com/nuke/html/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=64

Thanks

All-

I am new to the world of HDTV and just bought a plasma HDTV. I haven't had TWC out yet since I am doing some home remodeling to fit the TV so it won't be set up for a week or two. I am planning on getting the HDTV w/ DVR which I know requires getting their box. First, what kind of picture can I expect from having the box versus just going with a cable card? And will the local channels be better or worse than OTA? Any other gotchas to look out for?

Thanks for the help!

-mugrad

Folks, I need some advice on where to get my 32" Sony XBR400 repaired. The picture has gone dark. I took to one place and they state that a power component(s) on the "D" board is bad and he does not have the capability to replace components on that kind of board. To have him send the board out for repair will cost $500+. To get a replacement board from Sony will cost $600+.

Anybody know of repair shop that can do the component level repairs?

Thanks,
Rob

I have heard the following through the grapevine re: Cincinnati Bell IPTV:

1) 20 homes testing currently.
2) Have only managed to push the needed bandwith through 12,000 feet of copper. Were expecting more. This is the biggest current problem.
3) 6mbit/1mbit ADSL service will still be released this year.

Take it with a grain of salt.

Folks, I need some advice on where to get my 32" Sony XBR400 repaired. The picture has gone dark. I took to one place and they state that a power component(s) on the "D" board is bad and he does not have the capability to replace components on that kind of board. To have him send the board out for repair will cost $500+. To get a replacement board from Sony will cost $600+.

Anybody know of repair shop that can do the component level repairs?

Thanks,
Rob

First of all call Sony and see who is the closest authorized repair shop to where you live. You can also try Radio Shack, Best Buy or Circuit City. They repair most types of electronic equipment. I do not have any personal experience with Sony repairs.

All-

I am new to the world of HDTV and just bought a plasma HDTV. I haven't had TWC out yet since I am doing some home remodeling to fit the TV so it won't be set up for a week or two. I am planning on getting the HDTV w/ DVR which I know requires getting their box. First, what kind of picture can I expect from having the box versus just going with a cable card? And will the local channels be better or worse than OTA? Any other gotchas to look out for?

Thanks for the help!

-mugrad


I don't have any experience with their DVR or a CableCard but I have been pleased with the picture quality of both their analog and HD.

I have heard the following through the grapevine re: Cincinnati Bell IPTV:

1) 20 homes testing currently.
2) Have only managed to push the needed bandwith through 12,000 feet of copper. Were expecting more. This is the biggest current problem.
3) 6mbit/1mbit ADSL service will still be released this year.

Take it with a grain of salt.


Cincinnati Bell should get behind FIOS Verizon is pushing 15mbit/2mbit for 49.99

http://www22.verizon.com/FiOSForHome/channels/FiOS/HighSpeedInternetForHome.asp

I think by the time ADSL2 rolls out area wide it will already be out of date technology. Fiber is the future not copper. They are also getting ready to roll out HDTV using FIOS.

Cincinnati Bell should get behind FIOS Verizon is pushing 15mbit/2mbit for 49.99

http://www22.verizon.com/FiOSForHome/channels/FiOS/HighSpeedInternetForHome.asp

I think by the time ADSL2 rolls out area wide it will already be out of date technology. Fiber is the future not copper. They are also getting ready to roll out HDTV using FIOS.

My understanding is that if they can't work through their current distance issues with the bandwidth needed for IPTV, that they will roll out fiber to the curb. I don't even want to think about how long I'll be waiting out here in Clermont county.

I can't even get zoomtown where I live. I doubt We'll ever see fiber in Grant County. If it wasn't for Insight Cable I'd sill be stuck on 26400bps dail up I get chills even thinking about it. I cut the phone cord alll together now that I have Packet 8 VOIP.

SBC/AT&T is not going the fiber route either. I think that both Cincinnati Bell and AT&T believe that they are wasting a lot of money when they believe their last mile solution is just as good (ADSL2, etc.). It will be interesting to see what happens in the near future with the different types of IPTV technology out there.

DVI connection question. I am trying to help my dad set-up his HT room. His projector has S-video and a DVI port. He has a TW box here in cincinnati but it is not the same as mine so I am not as familiar with it. My HD DVR I have connected with component video. His model is not the DVR HD box but just a regular HD box. Are the DVI ports active on TW boxes? Any issues with them? I thought I read somewhere that not all Time Warner cities had the DVI port activated and some that do have had issues with the DVI port. Any help or feedback would be appriciatted. Thank you.

DVI connection question. I am trying to help my dad set-up his HT room. His projector has S-video and a DVI port. He has a TW box here in cincinnati but it is not the same as mine so I am not as familiar with it. My HD DVR I have connected with component video. His model is not the DVR HD box but just a regular HD box. Are the DVI ports active on TW boxes? Any issues with them? I thought I read somewhere that not all Time Warner cities had the DVI port activated and some that do have had issues with the DVI port. Any help or feedback would be appriciatted. Thank you.

They've pretty well gotten the DVI bugs worked out. I think you'll find the DVI will work fine. If not, call their tech line and let them trouble shoot, but I've had both the SA and the PACE box and the DVI worked fine on both of them.

All-

I am new to the world of HDTV and just bought a plasma HDTV. I haven't had TWC out yet since I am doing some home remodeling to fit the TV so it won't be set up for a week or two. I am planning on getting the HDTV w/ DVR which I know requires getting their box. First, what kind of picture can I expect from having the box versus just going with a cable card? And will the local channels be better or worse than OTA? Any other gotchas to look out for?

Thanks for the help!

-mugrad

Welcome to the board...

Personally I really like TWC's HD stuff. The picture quality is solid but others report slightly better results off air. The cable card is a newer technology and there seems to be some technical issues for some people. Plus the cable card is one-way only so you can't get any PPV or video on demand using it.

The TWC HD DVR is great -- two tuners which allows you to record two shows at once (and watch a third show if it is already recorded). The interface is simple and is close to Tivo. This is the least expensive, easiest way to get into recording for HD programming.

All in all, I'm pleased with TWC -- their service has really improved in the past 2 years.

DVI connection question. I am trying to help my dad set-up his HT room. His projector has S-video and a DVI port. He has a TW box here in cincinnati but it is not the same as mine so I am not as familiar with it. My HD DVR I have connected with component video. His model is not the DVR HD box but just a regular HD box. Are the DVI ports active on TW boxes? Any issues with them? I thought I read somewhere that not all Time Warner cities had the DVI port activated and some that do have had issues with the DVI port. Any help or feedback would be appriciatted. Thank you.

If he has the Pace 550 HD box, the DVI is active. That is what I'm using. I haven't had any issues.

Searay/Slimm, thank you for the feedback. I have ordered the DVI cable from monoprice and will give it a whirl when it arrives.

If he has the Pace 550 HD box, the DVI is active. That is what I'm using. I haven't had any issues.

Not to rain on the TW parade but I had a Pioneer HD receiver that would randomly reboot. TW sent out a tech who replaced the box with a Pace box. It worked well for 18 hours then we had a cable outage. From that point on, the Pace box would not reload (if you count the dots at the start-up screen, it got stuck on 8 dots). TW came out again and put in another Pioneer receiver.

Both TW techs told me that DVI causes them a lot of trouble and "composite video was just as good".

I am still using the DVI to HDMI cable (RadioShack had a good price) and except for a lot of pixelization over the weekend, it's working well.

// Scott

Not to rain on the TW parade but I had a Pioneer HD receiver that would randomly reboot. TW sent out a tech who replaced the box with a Pace box. It worked well for 18 hours then we had a cable outage. From that point on, the Pace box would not reload (if you count the dots at the start-up screen, it got stuck on 8 dots). TW came out again and put in another Pioneer receiver.

Both TW techs told me that DVI causes them a lot of trouble and "composite video was just as good".

I am still using the DVI to HDMI cable (RadioShack had a good price) and except for a lot of pixelization over the weekend, it's working well.

// Scott

Correct if I'm wrong but I believe there was an earlier Pace Hd box that may have had the issues that you describe. I believe you mean "component video". As far as I know HD can't be passed over composite.

Searay/Slimm, thank you for the feedback. I have ordered the DVI cable from monoprice and will give it a whirl when it arrives.

Glad you found out about monoprice. Excellent cables and fast shipping.

i'll second monoprice!

Not to rain on the TW parade but I had a Pioneer HD receiver that would randomly reboot. TW sent out a tech who replaced the box with a Pace box. It worked well for 18 hours then we had a cable outage. From that point on, the Pace box would not reload (if you count the dots at the start-up screen, it got stuck on 8 dots). TW came out again and put in another Pioneer receiver.

Both TW techs told me that DVI causes them a lot of trouble and "composite video was just as good".

I am still using the DVI to HDMI cable (RadioShack had a good price) and except for a lot of pixelization over the weekend, it's working well.

// Scott

Be careful what you're told by TW techs. I hope he told you component video because if he didn't then he really doesn't know what he's talking about. If component really is as good as DVI then a lot of TV folks are going to a lot of trouble to put DVI and HDMI inputs on these TVs not to mention the folks making money on DVI switchers for those of us who have only one DVI input on our TVs.

I think what he meant to say is "I wish people would just settle for components because it's a lot less hassle for us techs."

Folks who "know" will put it this way: If you're not using your digital inputs, you've wasted your money by buying this HDTV.

WCET-DT is apparently currently experiencing a PSIP issue. At 6:59PM EDT, decoding them(checked two different receivers) fine on 34-3+34-4 via MPEG2+PMT info, but VCT/channel remapping to 48.1/48.2 is not currently working - at least on my receivers which "update" the VCT info every time you tune to a station, rather than only updating it on a "channel scan".

Until they get it fixed, it is possible receivers which absolutely have to have proper PSIP implementation from the station in order to decode the datastreams may not be able to decode WCET-DT at all. Manually tuning to "34-3" for "CET HD", and "34-4" for Create, or channel rescan will work for some receivers. Some folks using receivers which are either using D* or E* EPG info, or receivers which do not change their internal VC info except upon a channel rescan may not notice any problem, except perhaps missing PSIP EPG info, or other PSIP info from EIT or ETT tables.

I Live further away from Cincinnati then probably most people on this forum. I live in Tollesboro Ky which is about 80- 85 Miles from most of the Cincy Towers. I need help getting the best signal that is possible. I know by living this far away I will probably not get a so called great signal. I can pull in Ch 12 on the HDTV side the Best followed by 19 and 5. Ch 9 I pulled in 70 % or so one time for a Brief Minute or two. I know Ch 9 is suppose to put new equipment up after the first of 2006 but I do not know IF they done this yet because I have not seen any Improvement whatsoever. Maybe it is just me being so far away. Maybe it is also again me being so far away and the curvature (IF spelled correctly) of the earth. I have 2 sections of tower up with the top of the tower with the tower in 3 ft. or 4 ft. of concrete in the ground. So I am probably 27-30 feet up off of the ground with the Antenna. I know I probably need to go Higher and I do have 2 More sections to put in to add an Additional 20 feet. But it will be difficult to do. I wished before we put up the Tower we hinged it with angle Iron so I could of pulled out 3 pins one from each leg and lay it over for Maintence (If needed anytime) and put it back up. It was so Difficult getting the Antenna up that far and it will be Impossible to go up the other 2 Sections or the other 2/ 10 feet. Be nice If I knew someone who has a cherry Picker or known as a Bucket truck like the Telephone People or Electric people use so I can take the tower down to # 1 Hinge with the Angle Iron and to Reinforce to make it stout(er) when we do hinge it. And put the other 2 sections of towers in. Heck I might have to put in more due to me being so far away. I cannot afford to Rent one of these so I need a Favor if anyone knows of anyone that would do this for FREE. I will pay for your GAS. If anyone is nice enough to do this. I am tired of Tiling up and Low Signal or none at all especially on Ch. 9. I am too far away to try to pick up Ch.64. But this is ODD I pulled in Indianapolis Once Ch 6 and Toledo Once Ch.11 WTOL and Ch.24 WNWO I can pull in Dayton Ch.2 and Ch 7 every now and then and Columbus Ch 4 every now and then And pulled in Knoxville Area Ch 20 WBXX once because I watched the Weather report for Gatlinburg and the Smokies Once for a Brief few Minutes. ODD enough I pulled in these they must had their signal on at the right time and the Atrosmphere must of been Clear those Days and Nights. However Indy and Knoxville was pulled in, in the rain. I am scratching my head on those. Why can I pull in so far away but it is so hard to pull in Cincy. I get all of the Lexington Ky Stations but again the signal is not great but I have less problems with Lexington than I go Cincy. What does anyone Recommend. I have to use Coaxial to hook up to the HDTV Tuner I cannot access the HDTV Tuner any other way I have a Sanyo 32 Inch Tv HT32744

Maybe it is also again me being so far away and the curvature (IF spelled correctly) of the earth.


Unless you are in a high spot - such as on top of a ridge/etc., that would likely be your main problem. Given the heights of the Cincinnati sticks(transmitting towers), and curvature of Earth -- 60~65 miles is usually generally about as far as you can get away and reasonably expect to receive reliable reception 24/7 - and perhaps especially so on UHF. That's not saying it's not possible from a "high spot"(and that includes "flat spots" but that are "Flat high ground" ) from 80~100 miles -- but, just don't count on it.

BTW, the channel numbers you are reffering to for the digital stations are virtual channel #'s, not the actual channels/frequencies the digital stations are transmitting on. For instance, WLWT 5 transmits on analog channel 5, but the digital station, WLWT-DT transmits on UHF channel 35. Stations send along with the signal some information via a protocol called "PSIP" which allows your receiver to remap it so it shows up as 5.1+5.2, even though its actually transmitting on UHF channel 35.

Adding 20FT to your tower may help+just may do the trick, but OTOH it might not help much, either. You may need to add more like 300FT. It's hard to say, only way to know really is to try it, with no guarentees that adding 20FT will solve your issues - although I'd guess there's a very good chance it will at least help a bit.


It Sounds like your antenna is already working quite well, and you didn't mention the make/model of antenna you are using, and what preamp your using/etc, so I'm not sure how much improvment you'd get by moving to a "better" antenna - there may be some improvement possible if you can get an antenna that can pick up a few db or so more signal, especially on the channels(frequencies) you're trying to receive.


It was so Difficult getting the Antenna up that far and it will be Impossible to go up the other 2 Sections or the other 2/ 10 feet.


As far as the antenna part goes --- if it helps any -- I've had to use a gin-pole and pully(come-along) to install larger/heavier Ham HF antennas, but hauling the smaller/lighter TV antennas up on a rope(*discalmer* after you've properly climbed the tower with your safety gear/etc of course) seems to work quite well. Just hold it out a bit from the tower when your raising it, and don't do it when it's even slightly windy or the antenna can easily be blown into the tower when you're pulling it up via the rope.


But this is ODD I pulled in Indianapolis Once Ch 6 and Toledo Once Ch.11 WTOL and Ch.24 WNWO I can pull in Dayton Ch.2 and Ch 7 every now and then and Columbus Ch 4 every now and then And pulled in Knoxville Area Ch 20 WBXX once because I watched the Weather report for Gatlinburg and the Smokies Once for a Brief few Minutes. ODD enough I pulled in these they must had their signal on at the right time and the Atrosmphere must of been Clear those Days and Nights. However Indy and Knoxville was pulled in, in the rain. I am scratching my head on those. Why can I pull in so far away but it is so hard to pull in Cincy.



What you have experienced with this is via a short~medium range "DX" signal propagation "mode" we call "tropospheric scatter" Or in some cases "tropospheric ducting", or "tropo" for short -- With "tropo ducting", reception of signals from many hundreds or even 1'000's of miles is possible. This sometimes occurs and involves refraction of the signal in such a way that VHF/UHF signal travel much farther beyond curvature of Earth than is usually possible. There is always a certian amount of this scattering effect occuring, and it is how the WWII "over-the-horizon" radar systems worked. -- But usually it means on a daily basis you need very sensitive receive equipment to get just "snippets" of signals beyond curvature of Earth(out to about 500 miles) raising above the "snow".

Now, it doesn't happen "all the time", but it is quite common in this region(especially in Spring~Summer~Fall months) for a bit of an increase in this "refraction" to occur ---- when it does, it is not at all uncommon to receive steady signals from 80~150 for a few hours in the late night or early morning hours in the Summer time. What mostly causes this increased "refraction" are temperature inversions, which even often occur to some extent because of normal radiational cooling. Frontal passages can also effect "tropo".

WBXX 20 Crossville, TN, as well as many of the other stations you mention are stations I see very often here via "tropo". For WBXX(and anther nearby station WPXK 54 - Jellico, TN), It probably helps their tower is on a 5000FT high mountain.

Another common "mode" of "DX" signal propagation that brings in Low-VHF or FM broadcast band TV signals from far, far away is called "sporadic E" propagation - which we Dx'er's usually refer to as "e-skip" or "Es" for short ... E-skip only effects VHF, and very rarely anything above FM -- More commonly, when it occurs(more common in summer months) the MUF(maximum usuable frequency) for E-skip signals will occur between about channel 2~5. unlike Tropo, E-skip has nothing to do with local weather conditions.

E-skip is caused by ioniziation of what we call the "E layer" of the Ionosphere - about 70 miles up -- basically, for unknown reasons. Although this has been studied for over 50 years - we do know for instance it isn't caused by "sunspots". Researchers are looking into such possible explanations/causes as plasma buildup from lightning strikes from equatorial storms being part of the triggering mechanism.

These "special" patches of ionization we Dx'ers refer to as "Es clounds" form in the E-Layer of Ionosphere, and reflect signals back to earth on certian frequencies which would normally escape into space. Most commonly, you'll see signals via Eskip on TV channel 2-4, and originating from about 800~1300 miles distant. Which basically means, somewhere between you and the station you are receiving, up 70 miles in the atmosphere, there is a "patch" of "Es clouds" hanging around .... These "Es-clounds" sometimes move very quickly, and on a summer afternoon with your antenna aimed generally West you may see over a couple of hours Several stations from say, Texas, then Nebraska, Colorado, Montana, and Canada all on the same channel and "fighting with each other" to put in the strongest signal, with different stations "winning the battle" at different times.

E-skip is one of the many "interference issues" which are of a concern for the viability of Low-VHF for DTV. For example, unlike with analog TV where what is happening shows up "right on the screen" -- with the signal diagnostic tools available on our DTV receivers, it is often difficult to diagnose exactly what is causing reception issues.

An excellent, Much better and more detailed explanation of how "tropo" and "e-skip" works, as well as how local "RF line of sight" reception, and other "modes" of DX signal propagation on VHF/UHF can be found in the "Signal propagation" section at the following website :

http://www.dxfm.com/

Ok I live in Nky and I'm trying to decide if I should go with Insight or Direct Tv for my HD. Can you all give me the pros and cons of each? Thanks I'm new to all this.

Be careful what you're told by TW techs. I hope he told you component video because if he didn't then he really doesn't know what he's talking about. If component really is as good as DVI then a lot of TV folks are going to a lot of trouble to put DVI and HDMI inputs on these TVs not to mention the folks making money on DVI switchers for those of us who have only one DVI input on our TVs.

I think what he meant to say is "I wish people would just settle for components because it's a lot less hassle for us techs."

Folks who "know" will put it this way: If you're not using your digital inputs, you've wasted your money by buying this HDTV.

Sea Ray, not to start an argument but I don't think the answer is so clear cut (that HDMI is better then Component). Matter of fact I have seen several posts where people like the Component video connection better, including a good friend who has a top notch set-up with a 100 inch screen. Quit frankly, one of the reasons HDMI was brought to market was not to improve picture quality but a way for Hollywood to deploy security and encryption against piracy. You might want to read an article such as this one: http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/122868.html

Sea Ray, not to start an argument but I don't think the answer is so clear cut (that HDMI is better then Component). Matter of fact I have seen several posts where people like the Component video connection better, including a good friend who has a top notch set-up with a 100 inch screen. Quit frankly, one of the reasons HDMI was brought to market was not to improve picture quality but a way for Hollywood to deploy security and encryption against piracy. You might want to read an article such as this one: http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/122868.html

Nice article! I guess it would be best to say that the best input is debatable and your mileage may vary. I would not tell folks that you'll find no difference between the two because I am one whose TV prefers DVI over component.

Good point!

Ok I live in Nky and I'm trying to decide if I should go with Insight or Direct Tv for my HD. Can you all give me the pros and cons of each? Thanks I'm new to all this.
I checked out Insight after hearing about the Directv price increase,because a lot of people on this forum(AVS in general) have made mention that cable has evolved and are competitive.My current D* bill is about 75-80 dollars per month which is TC+ on 4 TV's with 3 being HD(1HDTivo 2 std HD) and OTA for locals.Insight quoted me 108.30 per month for the first 12 months and 139.30 after that for service that is similar to what I have now. I never seriously considered Insight because of the NFLST on D*,but I thought I'd at least check them out.The pros and cons are going to depend on if your willing to use an antenna and what your programming interests are(sports,movies,network HD,etc) and how many HDTV's you're going to be using.More info please :D

Ok I'm only going to have 1 HD TV and the other 2 will be just regular. I am new to all this and am a little nervous about OTA and how hard it will be to get the channels. I live in Union right at the Florence line so I guess I'm fairly close to the towers but I don't want to install an antenna on my roof. I have an amplified TEK3 antenna that they sold me but haven't tried it yet. Can I check to see if I can get the OTA HD before I make a decision on cable or satellite? If so how do I go about it....I've done searches but can't really find a "guide" on how to tune to OTA and what not. Sorry I'm learning as I go.

Yes, but you need a TV with a built in tuner.

It's got a built in tuner.....hitachi 65f710. So how do I go about this...hook up the antenna and just tune to regular 5, 9 and 12? How can I tell if I'm getting OTA HD signal? Also which indoor antenna would you recommend. I bought a TEK3 but I'm thinking this isn't as good as some of the others.

Ok I live in Nky and I'm trying to decide if I should go with Insight or Direct Tv for my HD. Can you all give me the pros and cons of each? Thanks I'm new to all this.

It depends on what you are interested in. If you are just interested in just the local stations that have the network HD programs, Insight might be the best (and cheapest) way to go. They carry the digital feeds of local stations except WB64 (and they will likely carry it by this fall). All of the local digital channels are carried unencrypted so you only need a TV (or a set top box) with a QAM tuner to pick them up and they are available with whatever package you subscribe to (even the $13.25 basic package). If your TV (or set top box) has a QAM tuner that has a CableCard slot then you can subscribe to the other Insight digital packages as well. They charge $1.95 a month for the card but even with the card you can not get the PPV offerings or VOD offerings. For those you need a Insight set top box and, of course, you have to pay extra for the box which range in price from about $6 a month for their basic HD box to about $16 a month (for their two tuner HD DVR receiver). Please note that the price of the box is in addition to their HD package price which is $7.95 a month and includes ESPN HD, Discovery HD, HD Net, HD Movies, and Universal HD. The HD feeds of HBO, Showtime and other movie channels are included when you subscribe to that movie package (the same is true for the satellite companies).

Right now DirecTV does not offer the Cincinnati HD locals via satellite. The DirecTV HD receivers have an ATSC tuner and you add an antenna to get all the local HD channels. DirecTV is starting to offer HD locals via satellite (only ABC, CBS, NBC, and FOX) and latter this year Cincinnati is said to be one of those markets. When that happens it will require a new receiver and a new dish to receive them via satellite. At this time it is not clear how much this is going to cost existing HD customers. DirecTV does have a few more HD channels than Insight and they say they are going to be adding many more this year.

IF you are considering HD via satellite you also need to look into DISH Network. Right now they offer far more HD channels than either Insight or DirecTV and their new HD (MPEG-4) receivers are available Feb. 1st. DISH Network does not offer HD locals via satellite but their receivers also include an ATSC tuners so you can receive the Cincinnati HD channels by adding a outside antenna. They plan on offering the Cincinnati HD channels via satellite latter this year but, like DirecTV, they will only offer the "big four" local HD stations.

Your best bet is to talk to some friends and neighbors that have HD via Insight, DirecTV, or DISH Network. You also need to carefully compare prices and make sure that you have current prices. Insight raised rates Jan. 1st, DISH Network is raising rates Feb. 1st, and DirecTV is raising rates March 1st. ALL of the vendors charge extra for features like DVRs and that is something that need to be considered when comparing prices.

Well I bought an H20 box but have to even unpack it because I can't make up my mind. Am I close enough to the towers that I don't need to mount an antenna on my roof? If I got a nice indoor antenna would that work?

Well I bought an H20 box but have to even unpack it because I can't make up my mind. Am I close enough to the towers that I don't need to mount an antenna on my roof? If I got a nice indoor antenna would that work?

It depends on where you are. A good site to go to is http://www.antennaweb.org and put in your nine digit zip code or your street address and it will give you the distance and direction of the local stations.

Also, I believe that with the H20 DirecTV receiver that you will only be able to get the local HD stations IF you subscribe to a DirecTV total choice package. Maybe someone can verify that.

According to antennaweb I'm less than 20 miles from the Cincinnati stations. Will I need a roof mounted antenna or will a good indoor antenna work with my H20?

And are the SD channels with satellite better PQ than with cable?

ZCore,

Again, it depends on where you are. If you have a clear line of site to the towers you may be able to use an indoor antenna. Another thing that is important with digital signals is multipath. If the signal is reflected (by hills, buildings, ect.) you could have trouble picking up one or more stations. With digital, you either receive the signal or you don't. If you are just "on the edge" you will have a lot of dropouts. And if you are considering an indoor antenna one of the better ones is the Zenith Silver Sensor.

Any yes, the SD channels fro the satellite companies are better than the SD channels form Insight. Insight's digital HD channels are very good but the local HD channels (via OTA) are slightly better than Insight's (Insight compresses them and it noticable during sporting events).

What dish did you get with you DirecTV H20 receiver? I hope that you got the AT9 dish (five LNBs) otherwise you will need to replace it later this year if you want the Cincinnati locals via satellite or wish to add any of the new HD channels that DirecTV is going to add (they will all be MPEG-4 which the H20 can receive with the AT9 dish).

No I already have the 3LNB dish right now and even when I called Direct Tv about coming out and bringing their own box they said the dish would not need updating. They asked and I told them it was a 3LNB dish. So evidently they aren't offering to upgrade these yet? So how do I check to see if I can recieve OTA HD. Can someone walk me through it or link me something. I can't find a thread spelling it out for me.

Zore,

Yes, right now you are fine with the 3LNB dish as DirecTV is only offering local HD (via satellite) in selected markets. The 3LNB dish will get all the national HD that DirecTV is currently offering.

To check to see if you can get the OTA HD channels you need a receiver that will pick them up and some antenna connected to that box. Your H20 will do that but you first have to have it activated. Once activated you just go though the setup (read your manual) and the local HD stations will be in the EPG along with all the channels you get from DirecTV. There isn't really a way to check that you can get HD channels AT YOUR LOCATION without actually having a HD receiver. Your H20 has one of the newest ATSC tuners (fifth generation) and you ought to be able to get at least some of the local digital channels, even with an indoor antenna.

Is DirecTV sending someone out to install your H20? If so, ask them if an antenna is included in the installation price (if you were charged or if it was included free). On new HD installations an OTA is usually included.

Essentially all you need to do is attach your antenna to the ANT A input of your television, then do a channel scan. I didn't find any information about a built-in ATSC tuner for your TV though. Please refer to your owner's manual for more detail:

http://www.hitachi.us/tv/browse/projection/16-9digital/65F710.shtml

or like Bill said, use your DirecTV box.

I was wrong when I said it had a built in ATSC tuner. I guess I really wasn't sure what I was talking about at the time. But I'm learning fast thanks to all this great information and friendly people. Thanks again I'm gonna try it out when I get home.

As of 3:25pm EST today notice WCET-DT PSIP+virtual channel remapping to 48.1/48.2 is now working properly with my receivers here.