Speaking of the lack of WXIX-HD's reliability, anyone notice that it is off the air again. It was working again the other day (since being out since some time around Christmas), seems to be dead again. Unless its just me?

Not just you. But make sure you write and call them. We have until it's to the point they recognize our voices. www.fox19.com. Look under "contacts" or go to the beginning of this thread for the phone numbers.

Doc

JunkyardDogg, I've never seen HD on D* for comparison with TW, but I can tell you that I'm extremely pleased with the PQ on TW. This my first venture beyond 27" analog tv, so everything looks better to me in general.

Of the network stations, I would give CBS the nod for the best PQ when broadcasting in HD. And the digital version of FOX is not currently offered in the TW lineup.

Terry

Speaking of CH 19...

Ever since they came back up from their extended downtime, my two rigs indicate they are transmitting with less power. My main setup with a CM4228/CM7777 on a 40' tower with rotor just barely gets enough signal to lock on my Samsung TS-160 receiver here in Huber Heights (just N of Dayton) and my unamplified RS U75 antenna (fixed at about 30' on my tower) attached to my Zenith HD520 shows a trace of signal, but not enough to lock, whereas it used to have plenty before their most recent problem.

Hope this isn't a permanant situation.

Greg

Hey guys,

I am hearing the audio on WCVN 54-4 cut out every 3 seconds or so.
All of the other channels sound fine.
Anybody else notice this?

Mike

Yes, I am experiencing the same thing on my new Zenith C34W37 HDTV so The trouble is not in your set, Please Standby:)

The Sat Receiver we use for KET4 is dying, (This makes two in three days) it will have to wait until Monday as we are on overtime restriction.. Sorry for the inconvenience.. but...not much I can do from here..

William

Originally posted by voyager6
Speaking of CH 19...

Ever since they came back up from their extended downtime, my two rigs indicate they are transmitting with less power.
Greg

Haven't noticed anything different from them here, hard to tell though .. From 32 miles North of their Tower(RS VU 210@ 38FT, Blonder Tongue Preamp) .. Normal "pegging the meter" readings on Both receivers here(Zenith HDV420, RCA DTC-100), and can still get them with antenna aimed as much as 90 degrees off target ... Of course, the meter tells me nothing about actual signal strength ...

Hard to say what's going on with them, I do know that WPTO-DT is going on Their Tower, last we heard they were planning on being on Air in Jan/Feb 04 (I've also heard a early spring 04 date mentioned) ...

I can't really tell from here, either. My 2-yard-long yagi is aimed right at WXIX's tower. I was catching the exciter hiccups when they were off the air. Did find it interesting that, when the analog feed of the Cotton Bowl went black for a while, the digital was still going, although it looked terrible. First time, if only briefly, I can recall a picture and sound on a digital while the analog was silent. It's so often the other way around.

Doc

My signal strenth meter shows it is in the normal range but its not as strong as WLWT-DT which at my location is the strongest which shows its in the good range.

Originally posted by DrDon
My 2-yard-long yagi is aimed right at WXIX's tower.
Doc

Which reminds me .. another thing Greg might want to consider is that due to his location, 1st adjacent channel WRGT-DT 30 Dayton's Stick has to be very close to same heading as WXIX and the other Cincy Towers ... Any little thing that might have changed at either station might affect his reception of WXIX-
DT, given the selectivity that would be necessary for the receiver to pick out a weak signal right next to a strong one(our receiver's meters can show high readings even if a signal is fairly weak, and just a bit over threshold necessary for good reception(~16-20db of signal over noise)..

For instance, for over a month and a half earlier this summer(see the some of the spring/summer 2003 posts in the Dayton Thread for more info), WRGT-DT was going out of channel and affecting reception for some in the Dayton area of both WKRC-DT 31, and WXIX-DT ....

Found it amusing that WDTN beat WCPO to the HD switch with the start of the first Wildcard game. Wasn't until the "HDTV brought to you by Sears" banner came on that WCPO made the switch. On my system, CPO had better sound - center and rear speakers were active. WDTN just came through the front stereo speakers.

What I did find interesting was how little time the flood watch bug spent on the screen. That baby was up for a while, then GONE for the rest of the night. Must be getting more calls than they used to. "Hey, what happened to the HDTV???" At least I'm hoping that's the case. (phone numbers at the top of the thread if you need them <G>)

Doc

I have been seeing a lot of unusual Tropo interference in the last week, but the problems receiving WXIX-DT have been pretty consistant.

Yesterday during the downpour, I got Ch 11 and 13 analog from Toledo while pointed directly at Columbus, preventing me from watching WSYX-DT. Ch 11, without CCI, was crystal clear for almost two hours. Very unusual for the middle of the day.

Greg

I can confirm that WXIX-DT is currently operating at 25% power.

Doc

I'm assuming that WXIX-DT usually operates at higher than 25% power? I can't receive them anymore, either. I've always had to turn the antenna off-target to get a lock but even that doesn't help now.

They have a transmitter problem that's causing it to shut down when they try to ramp it up to their usual operating power. I didn't ask for specifics, but one could figure it might be an antenna problem. VSWR too high for some reason. Again, I'm speculating, but that's usually what causes us to have to run at low power.

Doc

Not sure if this thread is just for discussion on OTA HD or if it includes local HD cable issues as well, but I'll go ahead and post and let you all yell at me if I'm wrong. :-)

As of 1/1/04, Time Warner has good news and bad news and bad news for Cincinnatians who fancy HDTV. The good news is that HDNet and HDNet Movies are now available. The bad news is that they are premium offerings (extra $$) along with InHD1 and InHD2, which used to be part of the standard digital tier package. So now, if you want HD-exclusive programming beyond Discovery HD, you have to pay extra. The other bad news is that rates in general have gone up compared to 2003 nearly across the board, and considerably more than inflation.

Anyway, that's news from the cable HD front. Not all bad, but definitely not overly good.

Craig..
From what I can tell, that's pretty much becoming the norm. Insight does the same. 4 channels, 8 bucks, plus the HD converter rental. I think HD locals are not part of the surcharge package. And HBO and Showtime are included with their respective premium packages. It's not much different than DirecTV, which is where I'm getting my HD cable channels. For them, HDNet was free until September. Can't exactly blame them. They had to buy new gear to bring the HD channels. Sort of figure they'll want to recoup that expense SOMEwhere. I know cable modem service certainly didn't come free with my subscription, either.

Doc

I think what bugs me, Don, was not so much the charging for new additions to the line-up (I almost expect that by now), but the removal of _existing_ HD content from a tier that had included them AND the simultaneous increase in the price of that tier. So, I'm getting less content for more $$, yet I hear time and again how all the competition between cable and satellite is keeping prices down and innovation up. You gotta be kidding me.

Craig..
Oh, I hear ya. Would be better if they called it a "free preview" or something. What really happens is you become a beta tester. Once they see the viability of a service, things change. I still remember when stuff like CNN, A&E and other channels were part of basic cable. Now, they're EXPANDED basic. And it costs more. DirecTV used to have a Select Choice package. Now, it's all Total Choice. Although, TC with HD still comes out less than fifty a month.

Doc

Originally posted by voyager6
I have been seeing a lot of unusual Tropo interference in the last week, but the problems receiving WXIX-DT have been pretty consistant.
Greg

Sounds like your and Paul's WXIX-DT reception problem is due to their problems ... once you get out probably 45-50 miles from Cincinnati(or have serious terrain issues, or are using indoor antennas/etc), power is probably going to be more of an issue in many circumstances, and especially so on UHF. WRGT-DT being right next door probably doesn't help Dayton folks out either, since your receiver has to be a little more selective to be able to tune in the weaker, adjacent channel signal. Speaking of WRGT-DT, surely would be nice if they'd do Fox widescreen, it's nice to have a "backup" station ...

Anyhow, FCC Info shows WXIX-DT licensed at 229KW ERP, So at 25%(depending upon how they are figuring that), they're probably running something like 50~60KW ERP ... Forward Power that is, I'm afraid to ask how much is being reflected through their antenna/feedline system ....:eek: If they are going to be running low power for any appreciable amount of time, they would likely need to file for a STA, which should hopefully show up in FCC CDBS database ....

I do see WKSO 29, Somerset, KY quite often(In same direction as wxix) when WXIX-DT is down, though.

I have antenna envy, Jeff.

Noticed WCPO-DT left that flood watch bug up until kickoff of the Sugar Bowl (WDTN was in HD from the get-go) and only went back to it sparingly. Other times during the day, they had it up constantly. Either they're getting calls or they're becoming just plain "aware."

Doc

Was about to call WCPO when I came back with the number, it had already switched. WXIX-DT is coming in good up here in West Chester, however I don't have a signal meter on my Mits, it's either there or its not. Any news on UPN 25? Doc, have you heard anything from WB64 about going HD? I have written them, but never received a response, email nor snail mail. Hope that everyone had a good holiday season and had good HD viewing.

GO PACKERS!!!

John Horne is the WB64 guy to write about it: jhorne@wstr.sbgnet.com You can mention me (and B-105) when you do. He asked me to pass along his e-mail address to other HDTV users. Wouldn't mention AVS, however. Baby steps. He's the one I met with befor Thanksgiving who said I was the only HD owner he'd EVER met. And that station researched showed the number of HD viewers in Cincinnati to be "in the single digits."

As for WBQC, it's still on the list to swap places with co-owned WOTH. Even still, without a digital channel, it's doubtful we'll see any UPN HD for a very long time.

Doc

Well I just wrote Mr. Horne and told him about opportunities in both OTA and cable, where cable does have the majority of the market. People get the HD boxes even if they don't have an HD television. I also read on UPN 25's website that they're expanding programing on WOTH-38, that can be either good or bad, maybe a possible switch of UPN programing. They could also just go digital and feed that to the cable systems, since their analog is impossible to receive for most people.

I just emailed Mr. Horne as well. I'd really like to see Smallville in HD. I wonder why WBQC couldn't use a sub-channel on WCPO-DT for HD since they have there antenna on WCPOs tower. This could be a temporary solution for them until they convert to digital.

Bite your tongue! We don't need any more bandwidth-sucking subchannels from the commercial broadcasters than we already have <g>.

As for UPN on WCPO-DT, being competitors, that isn't likely to happen. Tower sharing is one thing, but helping enhance a competitor's programming is another. It would be MORE likely to happen on WKRC since UPN and CBS are co-owned. But Clear Channel owns WKRC, so it's once agian doubtful. Just have to wait to see if the FCC will give WBQC a digital channel. OTOH, with such little coverage area, anyway, it wouldn't hurt them to switch to digital anytime. Must carry rules and deals would still keep their signal on cable and satellite which is where most of their audience gets them, anyway.

Doc

Originally posted by William Smith
The Sat Receiver we use for KET4 is dying, (This makes two in three days) it will have to wait until Monday as we are on overtime restriction.. Sorry for the inconvenience.. but...not much I can do from here..

William


Its fixed again (Now on receiver number 3)


William

I don't know how I missed this, but back on December 5th on the WBQC web site a person logged in as "UPN" stated simply "the move is on hold". That's it. No explanation, info, etc. Nothing since.

WXIX-DT is down again..I was wanting to see 24 in widescreen tonight :(

513-421-0119. At least they'll know you're out there. My voice they recognize.

Question for those of you getting HD from TWC in the Cinti area: has anyone upgraded their box to the new Pioneer 3150HD (from the SA 3100)? I was told that I can just take my old SA 3100 box into the Tri-County store and do a swap. Before I disconnect everything, I just wanted to get your opinion on the differences.

A couple of advantages I'm interested in: ability to use Channel Guide while viewing HD content, and receipt of 'native' picture quality (i.e., 720p, 1080i, etc.) rather than automatic upconversion of everything to 1080i.

Any comments are appreciated!

Blindamood,

Do a search of this forum for posts by cmf. He has the 3150HD and has posted about it in previous Cincinnati HDTV threads.

Although he could not get the DVI output to work (a well documented problem over in the HDTV Hardware forum) he still reported superior PQ to the SA box over component. I believe you can set the output resolution but I have no hands on experience with the Pioneer.

I believe you can do the swap out as you described but I'd call them first to make sure they have the Pioneer box at the Tri-County office.

Blindamood: What gerhard911 says is true. I have it and am quite happy even without the DVI output being functional. The component output gives me a lot of flexibility and the better HD stations look gorgeous. My set is a 720p TV, and it does scaling better than the box, so I have the 3150 just send out whatever it gets in. Works fine. I *have* recently been having audio problems, though -- sometimes, the sound will start to go in and out and then it will just go out and stay out until I change channels. Not a major issue, but a little annoying. Still better than the Scientific Atlanta POS.

Thanks for the quick responses. I have DVI, but intend to stick with component for the time being, primarily because I'm switching with my receiver (dvd / hd). I'll definitely give them a call before I head over... ;)

I'm using the Pioneer box as well and I like it pretty well. I'm also having some of the audio issues that cmf mentions, but it hasn't really been troublesome enough for me to call them about. I had the Atlantic Scientific box first, but just took it to the Tri-County office and they swapped it out for me. Definitely call them first though to make sure that they have one available. I happened to grab the last one at the time when I stopped in.

I haven't tried using the DVI outputs so I can't comment on that other than the lady at the Tri-County office told me that the DVI ports are activated on the box.

I can also confirm the ability to use channel guide while watching HD content.

Got my 3510HD last night -- no problems! Hooked it up and all seems to be working well, including the channel guide. I don't notice much of a video difference on the HD channels, but the SD channels do look noticeably better. Also, I believe the sound quality is improved on most channels (including no drop-outs, as I used to get frequently on the major networks using the SA 3100).

I don't know if anyone has mentioned that HDNet and INHD (at least on mine, after getting the "subscription" notice) is coming in as of last night. Maybe a free trial, maybe a switching mistake. Does anyone else get it?

WXIX-DT appears to be on the air, again. Well, they ARE. But I can't tell at how much power.

chazcron,
They started working here as well about three or four days ago. Hope they are here to stay.

Hey folks,
I have owned my 51SWX set since March of last year and this is my first post here. I love the information you guys have been giving. I am currently running through TWC for HDTV and I am wondering if it is worth the trouble of getting the local HD over the air. Is it worth the cost and how much should I expect to spend? Also what is your current opinion on what is happening with TWC and ESPN in reguards to HD? Thanks again!

Welcome to AVS Forum!
I live in West Chester and receive all Cincinnati digital stations and have added Dayton channels that I like to watch, but I can receive all of them. OTA is really not that expensive, considering how much HD over cable is. A OTA box(which may include a Sat service), an antenna, a pre-amp(if needed), and some RG-6 wire. I have a very large antenna(12 feet) in my attic along with a Channel Master 7776 pre-amp. The antenna can be UHF, but ABC is located on channel 10, which is VHF. I am OTA only, so I cannot comment on Sat quality, others on this thread can tell you about that. If you cannot receive Dayton's digitals from your Cincinnati antenna, just put another antenna up and point it north.

Chazcron, see my post...http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3148481#post3148481

They're part of an upgrade package that should cost $$ (I lost InHD1 and 2 on 1/1/04 because I didn't add the HD package that includes those channels and HDNet's 2).

Craig, I did hear about it, saw the channels turn to a static "subscription" screen, even deprogrammed INHD from my HD "favorites". I only found they were on again by accident. I assumed it was a free preview to woo current HD folks to pay more for the HD tier (I don't think so, TWCinci) I posted in hopes it was only me seeing it for free, (IE an accidental upgrade.)

On a side note, those with the Pioneer 3150, my neighbor has one, and in the 5 minutes I played with it, I was unable to disable stretching on 3x4 programming. I wish Pioneer had a PDF on all the features and input/outputs like SA does. Anyone have a link to such info?

Is it possible?

For me, stretching is only tolerable if it is smooth/wide, like most 16x9 tv manufacturers do. Why couldn't Pioneer do it? I'm probably going to replace my SA 2000 on my SD tv in order to compare it to my 3100 without losing it if I don't like the 3150. I hope TWCinci gets the SA 3250 someday. Better yet, by the end of the year, maybe Cinci could be a HD-PVR test market.

Have a TW PVR upstairs, blocky pixelization is pretty awful, channel changing delay is unbearable. Be nice if it had a "surf mode" that temporarily disabled the delay spooling. Best feature, intelligent mini-rewind backup to where you wanted to start viewing after fastforwarding thru commercials. Been gone awhile, fixating on 3d modeling the new Ford Mustang over the last six months.

I picked up a 3500HD box last night from the Norwood TW store. Anyone know what the differences are between the 3500/3510?

Originally posted by DrDon
WXIX-DT appears to be on the air, again. Well, they ARE. But I can't tell at how much power.

They're still up(Jinx alert!) and putting a good signal(as far as I can tell) into here at 5pm.

Cossa, check the sticker on the back of the box. Even though the manual says 3500, the actual box (mine anyway) says 3510.

Thanks will do this evening. Is the DVI port active on the 3510? Customer service wasn't very helpful...

Hi~ I'm looking for an installer in Cincinnati to run some in ceiling speakers and and an in attic antenna for my off air HD. I'm located in Loveland. Any suggestions would be appreciated!

I think its "about that time", so Wonder if we'll get a HdOne Movie from WKRC-DT this weekend ...

The TitanTV 2AM listing for WKRC Sunday Night(when they usually air the Paramount movie in SD only) shows:

"To Be Announced(HD)"

WBDT Dayton, which also airs the Paramount HDOne movie package(but in SD only), shows the following listing for 1pm Sunday Afternoon:

WBDTDT 18 (26.1) Sunday 1/11/2004 1:00 PM, 2 hrs

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Prayer in the Dark


A Quaker's family is held hostage by a former believer and two armed companions as she seeks help from members of her nonviolent community. (1997)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lynda Carter, Teri Polo, Colin Ferguson, Phillip Jarrett, Silvio Oliverio


Drama/Made For Cable

NR, TVPG, English

-------------------------

Hmmm .. Could be a Dud, but Lynda Carter in HD ..... Fingers crossed ...

BTW, here is the list of upcoming Paramount HD movies from AVS Programming Sypnosis thread - Hopefully, I'll get to see the ST(II especially) movies, Raiders(again, it aired on ABC in HD a couple years back) and the Godfather Movies in HD :

2004
A Prayer in the Dark - January
Beverly Hills Cop - February
Contagious - March
Star Trek: The Motion Picture - April
Star Trek II-The Wrath of Khan - May
Star Trek III-The Search for Spock - June
Raider of the Lost Ark - July
Star Trek IV-The Voyage Home - August
Star Trek V-Final Frontier - September
Star Trek VI-The Undiscovered Country - October
The Godfather - November
The Godfather, Part II - November
Major League - December

Jeff..
Considering that CBS has the late game, tomorrow (in HD) we're probably going to get to skip this one.

Doc

I tried the DVI port on the 3150HD to my Sony XBR910 and once it is connected, the "output format" on the General Settings menu disappears. In addition, it takes forever for each HD channel to tune-in. Often there is snow for a second or two on the screen and then black and then the picture tunes in. Definitely not worth the delays... Going back to component cables.

Anyone else experience this? I was using a Monster DVI cable I bought at Circuit City (nice return policy...) to test it out.

Sorry this post is slightly off topic. Just wanted to inform everybody that TWCinci now offers the german channel German TV on channel 254. It's a subscription only channel and the price is a steep $14/month. Given that Cincinnati has a huge german heritage I thought others may be interested in watching tv programming from the motherland.

-MarcW

UberGruven!

Originally posted by chazcron
UberGruven! Doesn't he coach Tampa Bay?:D

I talked to Matt in the programming department at WBQC today, and the move to channel 38 with its associated increase in power has been delayed. The current forcast is maybe April but as late as June.

I'm still hoping that WPTO-DT is on schudule for late winter or early spring.

Nitewatchman,

Do you know if WBQC applied for and received an extension on their CP and for how long.

I'm still hoping that WPTO-DT is on schudule for late winter or early spring

We've got our toes crossed on that one also... Right now the time line has it with a mid-April start. However, none of us will be surprised if it slides (some more)

Charles,
Thanks for the WPTO-DT update. I understand that the number of things that can cause delays is endless. We're all keeping our fingers crossed and hoping for the best.

First off, Noticed there are 2 new Subs showing up on KET/WCVN-DT -- 54-5+54-6 ... Both are SD with Color bars, which I'm currently using, since the only way I can get test patterns at 1080i is via DTV station+upconverting to 1080i with my STB .. Enjoying the audio on 54-5 now too presently ...

------------------------------

Thanks for into on WPTO-DT/WBQC!

Clarke, Don't think WBQC needs a CP extension, FCC site shows the Current CP for 38 doesn't expire until 12/26/04(3 years from date of issue) :

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_det.pl?Application_id=574609

It's WOTH-LP's STA(special temporary authority) for channel 38 (They're on 38 because they had to move from 39 to make way for WKOI-DT, which transmits from near Oxford with a very directional antenna pattern that generally favors the NNW, and their community of license, Richmond, IN --- WOTH-LP had to move from 35 to 39 too, BTW, to make way for WLWT-DT in 98). WOTH-LP now has a CP to move to 25+use WBQC's current facilities, that won't expire for a couple more years either ...

Anyhow, what I was wondering about is that FCC CDBS info shows WOTH-LP's last STA for 38 expired on 12/11/2003 (Their second STA - WKOI-DT came up in Dec. 2002, and they moved to 38 around that time), I don't see any indication that they've filed for a new STA ... However, Just because I'm not seeing a new STA filed for/issued on FCC site, it doesn't mean they don't have some sort of STA or permit/etc. to operate, currently:

WOTH-LP STA Info:

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_det.pl?Application_id=662644

WOTH-LP App list:

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_list.pl?Facility_id=19432

You can find this sort of stuff(sometimes, even the apps from the stations themselves) Here(especially from the links you get from the query result) -- Make sure to choose "Detailed info+CDBS Links" When you run your query:

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html

Jeff,
Thanks for the info and hints on navigating the FCC site. It always gives me trouble. I usually go to TV-Radio World for the basic FCC apps but I can't get detailed info there.

I also want to thank Charles again. We are lucky to have Charles and William to give us info on WPTO and KET. We are lucky to have such an active local forum at this stage of the digital revolution.

I think I'm correct that the WPTO-DT antenna is going onto the WXIX tower. It's a good thing that transmitters don't get virus infections, because I wouldn't want to be anywhere near WXIX if they did. I know that WXIX doesn't think much of digital. Nevertheless, their management must be near meltdown by now.

Some various wondering thoughts ...

Looks like KET is using the add'l subs(54-5/54-6) for their KY General Assembly coverage, so I'd WAG it's temporary ...

And Yes, as allways thanks to Charles and William for participating here ...

Clarke,

I think you might have said you have a terrain issue towards Dayton(which would probably be quite "limiting" in combination with your distance from Dayton on Hi-UHF 58 especially), but if you could see it, I think you'd be pleased with WPTD-DT Dayton. Although Pixelization/limited HD bandwidth due to 2 SD subs alongside HD is a problem at times, WPTD-DT is broadcasting the PBS HD channel overnight(nightly) from 6~8pm or so to 6am ...

Concerning WPTO-DT -- According to info at FCC site, Their Original CP was for WKOI's Tower(is between Oxford and Trenton, OH), but they were granted a CP MOD(On 1/24/03) to use WXIX's tower instead. Given WPTO-DT/WXIX-DT are going to be on 1st Adjacent channels, I think its probably especially a good thing to co-locate 1st adjacent channel facilities ...

WPTO-DT's App "list" with links(If you check out the "application" links for the DT, it explains the hows and why's/etc, including the reasons for their filing for CP extensions) :

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_list.pl?Facility_id=25065
-------------------
Anyhow, I'm allways a little "skeptical" when I hear a station has plans to come up in the middle of winter, as, if the tower work hasn't been done yet, I'd think it probably isn't going to happen until at least spring(Of course, there is the "wind issue" we sometimes have to deal with around here in early spring, too ... Of course, when I spoke to Elliot Block at bqc' in August 2002, their plans at that time were to have WBQC on 38 by Spring 2003 ....

Concerning the "Transmitter virus" (LOL!) -- No telling what "Murphy" is up to these days ....

Oh -- On WXIX-DT .... They seem to be off air currently --- I did notice that although all seemed well prior to last night( the last couple of days when I've checked), Last night, I had solid reception from them during Widescreen "24", but just Barely ... Signal quality meter was showing about 35-40% (Unless they've been off air, It's allways been 95-100%), which is what I get from WKOI-DT this time of year. I can't get WKOI-DT once leaves come on trees, or there's too much wind - I also have a serious terrain issue in their direction - Not an issue for their analog, but their DTV transmitting antenna is much lower on their tower, and of course they are running an 18 KW ERP STA with a directional antenna that doesn't favor my direction --- According to antenna pattern on FCC site, they should be throwing about 2KW ERP in my direction ...

Concerning WKOI-DT(TBN) ... Anyone know how to get hold of them? They are using one of the 16x9 ATSC formats, and they are sending their 4x3 video "stretched" into 16x9 (jst like WXIX-DT's local commercials when they're doing Fox widescreen properly) -- It looks bad+They've been doing this for almost a year now ... I can't squeeze it back to normal proportions in most cases with my 2 setups(except for at 480p/480i on One setup), can't tell if they are sending 1080i/720p or 480p 16x9 ...

So far, I haven't had a single lock on ANY of the Dayton digital stations. I've spent most of my time trying to get KET without dropouts. Reception was pretty consistant this summer but has gone down hill this winter. I don't have line of sight in that direction so any thing I get is a reflection. If I want to get Dayton and KET I'd have to sell my house and move to the top of the hill or maybe a 60 ft. tower. I don't think my wife or the neighbors would appreciate that. I do have solid reception on all the other Cincinnati stations, so I have high hopes for WPTO.

Clarke..
What a difference a few feet make, huh? I am on a hill not far from you and can get WDTN and WKEF digitals just fine using a yagi in the attic. WHIO I get occasionally, although I can phase the antennas to get 41 solidly (at the expense of the others). So, maybe you won't QUITE need a 60-foot tower. Depends on what's in the way. If you can find a spot where you can see the control tower, you should be good. Though you may need quite a bit of yagi <g>.

Doc

Hi all,

I've noticed that all the stations transmit a DD2.0 audio signal except CET with their 5.1. I was wondering if this is a network situation or a local station issue. I am specifically interested in knowing whether channel 12 will be broadcasting the Super Bowl in DD5.1.

Thanks

I was wondering why this is as well. The Audio on CET is excellent. I know that CBS and NBC are supposed to be broadcasting 5.1. I believe its a local issue.

Hey TW subs: any idea on when ESPN-HD is coming on line? My partner wants to know. I thought TW already had it.

Jack.
I can't speak for WKRC, but WCPO-DT won't pass 5.1 until they move into their new facilities. The move will take place in March. Not sure how long after that they'll upgrade.

Doc

I don't know of any TW franchises getting ESPN(there may be a few. Corporate parent doesn't want to pay Disney twice for the identical content on SD they already pay for. I haven't heard how much HD stuff is on it anyway. I've read that SD stuff is often stretched.

I have the option of getting it with Lebanon's cable service (in addition to WXIX), but the other channels are lacking compared to TWCinci, also, no PVR.

Hey TW subs: any idea on when ESPN-HD is coming on line? My partner wants to know. I thought TW already had it.

They don't have it yet, and it looks like there is no telling when they will have it. TW thinks it should be free because it duplicates the SD version of the channel.

So that leaves us currently at:

ABC
NBC
CBS
PBS (multiple)
HBO
SHO
Discovery HD
InHD
InHD2
HDNet
HDNet Movies

I spoke to a TWC rep yesterday (to demo, for free for two months, the new HD tier) about ESPN-HD and other HD programming (Fox and WB, specificallly). She said she hadn't heard about Fox and WB, but that an internal memo had listed ESPN-HD as something that was coming soon and that it would be added to the HD tier. Fingers crossed...

Thanks, all. I'll pass the information to Amanda. Her husband was quite miffed that the Bearcats weren't in HD on TWC, last night. Maybe TWC is waiting for more content. They ARE getting more and it DOES look quite good (I get it via DirecTV). The stretching of SD programming isn't annoying to me, since that's what I do with ALL SD programming. Even stretched, ESPN-HD's upconverts look tons better than ESPN on DirecTV or through Insight. I haven't seen ESPN-HD on Insight (co-worker has it), but he says you can't tell any difference between Insight and DirecTV.

Thanks

Doc

WXIX-DT is up at 21:00 1/16 ... Last I checked this afternoon they were down ... Also, Just did a bit of a "rotation check" and From 32 Miles, Getting them with no dropouts over 10 minutes time with antenna aimed as far off target with as much rejection off the side as I can get(antenna aimed towards Ft Wayne or so) ...Of course, the analog looks absolutely awful due to the poor multipath "capabilities" of NTSC with antenna aimed so far off target ...

I am receiving WXIX-DT on both my receivers, but both show up low in the signal quality, but a little better than a couple of weeks ago.

Is there any chance of WKRC or WHIO having DD5.1 for the Superbowl? I know they haven't had it on for regular season games, but was hoping that one of the two would have it. Also, what is up with all the KET channels? Kentucky's Congress isn't that interesting and neither are the color bars. I still get WXIX in solid when they are broadcasting(Which they aren't doing right now). Also, when WCPO moves to the new station, has anyone heard about DD5.1 from them, although I don't mind changing to WDTN. Anyone hear back from WB 64, wrote them and still no response, but I figured that because it is Sinclair station and I don't expect much of them anyway, except for Seinfeld to be on.

Originally posted by JunkyardDogg
Is there any chance of WKRC or WHIO having DD5.1 for the Superbowl? I know they haven't had it on for regular season games, but was hoping that one of the two would have it...

I think most of us were just hoping for full bitrate video sans macro-blocks.

Paul

The PLAN for WCPO (which could have changed since I last talked with them) was to have DD 5.1 at the new location. I doubt the implementation will be instantaneous. More likely, they'll get it in once they're situated. Plans also called for full 16:9 digital switching capabilities, which means we'll still get the nasty weather bugs, but at least there'll be an HD picture underneath them. My SPECULATION is that they'll have digital studio cameras, since that's what their sister station did in Detroit (but they had a bigger budget). Don't look for 720p news, however. Detroit has had the cameras for 4 years and hasn't done it, yet, to my knowledge. However, the added resolution was enough to make them rebuild the set, since all of the "cheats" were suddenly blatantly obvious.. even on the oldest TV sets.

More than you wanted to know, I'm sure, but...

Doc

Does anyone know what the deal is with the NHL telecasts on inhd? I tried flipping them on during this "trial period" and was not so pleasantly surprised. For some reason, TW's feed of HDNet is not actually showing the NHL games! Instead, they keep repeating that Dartmouth/Brown Men's b-ball game. What the heck? I missed 2 Blue Jackets games in Hi Def because of this! Does anyody know?

-Bryan

Since ABC/CBS/NBC had HD, and WXIX-DT had Fox Widescreen for State of Union address last night, I found it to be an interesting PQ comparison -- Only time I can think of that I have seen the same HD source material(+Fox Widescreen from 'xix) from 7 different(Cincy/Dayton) stations to use for comparison ...

Sorry for asking a question about DD 5.1 on CBS.
However, Dayton people need to do a better job of getting WHIO to drop the sub-channel, WKRC will not drop Webhopper, if it is making money, why not keep it, HD isn't doing that for them.
Looks like we may lose channel 61 analog, because it is carried by cable and sat, so if you want it OTA, you should call the number on the bottom of the screen.
I also tested each station for the best picture, it was between WCPO and WKRC, I stayed with WCPO because it was ABC cameras shooting it. Not even HD can help out that speech!

JD,

No need to apologize for asking a question! That was just my dig on both of the CBS affiliates. I don't know what more we can do to get them to drop the sub. Several people up here in Dayton have emailed WHIO, including me. I don't have a response from them. I suppose we could start calling them daily...

Paul

Its cool. I think all we can do is live with what we have and be happy for it. We do get the Superbowl in HD(with a little taste of blocking). Has anyone ever checked the bit rate difference between WHIO and WKRC? Is it possible that they're sharing a feed from national or something on that order? I still don't understand the point of one HD sub and another 4:3 480i sub, seems illogical to me, I would never watch the second channel, Burn-in never happens if you set your tv right and change sources enough. Still nothing from WB 64, what a load of bull from them, oh well, its not a good network anyway.

Two Possible reasons ... one legal one practical....

Legal 50% simulcast rule (per the FCC) soon to be 75%....

Practical: Some cable companies may be taking the digital SD feed in lieu of the analog to get a better image to their digital cable plants...

William

William..
Not sure I buy the simulcast rule reasoning for a couple of reasons. One is that it not everybody is doing it. NONE of the Cincinnati network commercial stations maintain a duplicate sub and that includes WXIX-DT which is only on the AIR 50% of the time. The other: I've heard the argument that carrying an HD feed on digital while running an analog feed (of the same program) on analog doesn't constitute a simulcast. I'd argue that one. Back when AM was forced to DROP simulcasts with sister FM stations, a couple of enterprising owners came up with the bright idea of just tape-delaying the AM programming by five minutes on the FM. Can't remember if it was the commission or just some legal scholar, but that was determined to be a simulcast. I can't imagine the exact same programming running at the exact same time even though from different source material would constitute anything BUT a simulcast.

But I will buy the cable feed argument <G>.

Doc

Doc or William,
Could you explain the simulcast rule in a little more detail? Also, if it means that you can't transmit the same program at the same time on your analog and digital stations, why would such as rule be enforced in the context of the transition from analog to digital? Wouldn't people moving from analog to digital want to get the same programs at the same time except for the improved definition?

Well, I've read through the pertinent sections concerning analog simulcast rule on previous occasions, but don't presently feel like digging through the reports and orders/etc(The rules "governing the DTV transisition) to find it(Can be forund here: http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/documents.html )

Anyhow, the analog simulcast rule we're talking about is specifically part of the DTV transisition. The rule says, 50% of the programming on a digital station has to be the SAME programming that runs on the analog channel up until 4/2004(I think it's april, may be a little later), at which time it goes up to 75%, and then 100% by 2005. I don't interpet it as the "Rez" used having anything to do with it. I suppose it is possible though to interpet Weather bugs/graphics/"Public service" announcements/etc. as part of the rule.

Non-Commerical stations were able to get a 6 month waiver to this rule last summer, and in the 2nd DTV review NPRM, IF I recall correctly, FCC indicated they would look closer at this issue, and whether the rule was even necessary during the transisition. Not in our area, but my understanding was A number of PBS stations were(and maybe still are) solely using the PBS DT2A HD feed on their digital stations. This was an "inexpensive" way to go about it, and solved a issue that happened at some stations, which were using Transmission sites for their DTV station which were quite remote from their analog/other facilities -- So, it was easier, and less expensive/etc.(required less equipment), and allowed them to get on air quicker just to take the PBS HD feed off the sat and retransmit it, rather than to build a new STL link to the new transmitter site/etc.

---------------

Anyhow, I have spoken to someone whow works at a station(not in our "specific" area) which is using a SD subchannel to feed Cableco's headends a 480i 4x3 SD version, instead of the analog. Some of the Closer headends get it via Fiber, and the others get it via OTA -- Which of course is an improvement over analog for more than just 1 reason. Their CBS HD, of course suffers due to compression artifacts because of the extra SD subchannel ... Whether or not the Dayton stations are doing this, I don't know. What I do know is, the programming on the HD+SD sub of WHIO-DT/WDTN-DT is ALLWAYS the same, I have seen WKEF-DT stick with Nat'l NBC feed on 51-1, with infomercials/etc. on 51-2(same as analog) on late nights ...

While I understand it can be benefical to the station(for various reasons), and to SD cable viewers as well ... all I know is, the extra subchannel, airing the SAME programming as on the HD sub is completely useless to me, as a OTA viewer -- The only thing they are good for from my point of view, is to cause compression artifacts during HD, and, I'd rather see stations changing ATSC formats to match the source material, as is the case on KET4, and I'd also rather see everyone getting 16x9 versions(even if letterboxed in a 4x3 frame) of everything that runs as HD programming ... The latter, probably being a big issue involved here ... If you notice, most programming we see as HD from the nets isn't 16x9 on the analog station, excepts are PBS, and shows such as "ER" ....

Jeff,
Thanks. I think my original ideas were backwards. This makes some sense to me, although the concept of the Government doing something that didn't make sense seemed totally possible. Based on Docs AM/FM example, I thought that the government was saying the the analog and digital stations could NOT broadscast the same material at the same time. You are saying just the opposite, and that by 2005 all programing on analogs stations must also appear on their digital stations at the same time.

One thing I forgot to mention, having a SD sub on the digital that is a %100 percent simulcast of the analog, DOES insure to stations that the analog simulcast rule will be met, say, as in instances when there is a problem with the HD feed from the Net, and you might end up with "blank screen" on the HD sub .. Of course, depending upon what happens with the rule, we will also see what happens with WKRC-DT, the "it's all here" promo instead of the local ad inserts, and then there's the HD-one movies (which they COULD be airing in HD at some other time, worst case scenerio at 2AM on Sat. Nights -- same time it's aired in SD .... It's "recordable" at least ...)

Clarke..

Sorry to confuse you with the AM/FM example. Yeah, it was backwards for us when the FCC was trying to split full time simulcasts. With DTV, the simulcast reasoning seems to be to get stations to air meaningful programming instead of test loops just to keep the transmitter hot.

While it's a totally different commission than it was back during the AM/FM simulcast rulings, I would imagine some of the same interpretations would apply. As Jeff points out, WKRC-DT doesn't bother with local commercial breaks. I would doubt they'd draw fire for that even when the 100% rule kicks in. I say this becasue the reverse wasn't true. During AM/FM simulcasts, some stations ran a different set of commercials on the AM and the FM. Since the programming (and not the spots) was the same, it was considered a 100% simulcast for the entire time period.

Again, I'm not certain how stringently they'll enforce this, but I think any station that's making the simulcast efforts WKRC-DT, WCPO-DT and WLWT-DT are would not be ticketed over such things as dropped local spot breaks and late switch backs (such as WKEF-DT). Matter of fact, I'd even doubt the HD One movies would draw fire since it's meaningful programming that promotes the DTV transition.

But, again, I'm not a commissioner. I've just dealt with their field agents a lot <g>. And I'm frequently surprised as to what they're anal about and what they couldn't care less about.

Doc

Doc,

Yeah. Really, these days, I think for the most part, the stations do a fine job "policing" themselves on this sort of stuff.

Also, personally, I could do without the simulcast rule during the transisition. As long as the analogs are there, I can watch the analogs for the "primary" 480i SD service when necessary, and for the most part I personally would rather see "HD Tests Loop" or whatever HD material is available for air on the DT than a simulcast of analog programming(excepting when the Simulcast is HD, or, even any available 16x9 that's not in a "letterbox" of course) .... For the most part, It's not like it is a situation, presently, in which we can receive the DT, but not the analog ..... When this changes in any specific circumstance, then that's another story ...

Also, I'd expect the local ads to start appearing on WKRC-DT when it becomes important to them+their clients .... On HD-one movies, I just want them to keep up showing up in HD every month, don't really care when they do it == although, it would be nice to know when! They did it for over 12 months straight, then, when they missed one in spring 2003, I believe they missed something like 5-6 more after that ..

I am wondering when we'll see the next word from FCC on the 2nd DTV review. It's been a year now since the NPRM went out, and I believe the last review process took about a year or so. Just guessing, but I'm thinking the "must carry" decision will come first, and the MO&O for the review not too long afterwards ....

Without any official waiving of a rule , stations are held accountable for the rule as written.. so just becaouse its under review, doesn't let you off the hook...


An Example:
We have a waiver for EAS from the FCC for the DTV stations, exempting us from certain sections of the EAS rules providing that we have a way of transmitting a National EAS alert...which we do.


William

William,

Certianly. Here's a couple of rules concerning DTV stations of which I find the implementation at times, well, lets just say ... Interesting ...

Digital Captioning/July 2002 "rule" ... manufacturers and broadcasters seem to be involved, seemingly the former perhaps more than the latter in many circumstances -- and so far, digital captioning(EIA-708) doesn't seem to be implemented very well in many instances ....

DTV stations of top 4 network affiliates in Markets #1-30 are currently required by FCC to be on the air anytime the analog station is on the air ... Cincinnati Market was #30 when this rule went into affect, and Cincinnati stations are Still on the FCC's "stations in market #1-30 "list" ... Just because the info isn't there in the places I've looked, doesn't mean there isn't a waiver, I've looked and I haven't seen any "waivers" for any of the stations listed there .....

-------------------------------

Not here, but I've also heard of instances of stations "cranking down" the RF to save on utility bills, without the necessary changes to their operating permits ... As you know stations are required to operate under the parameters in their operating permit, and in special circumstances when technical problems/etc. are an issue, are required to notify FCC if for some reason, they can't operate under those parameters ....

DTV Captioning is being implemented pretty quickly... Some encoder manufacturers are a late with software to support both 608 and 708 captions at the same time especially in SD material.. We're trying to get permission from Frankfort to buy new satellite receivers for the HD Feed as the HD caption standard hadn't been established at the time we bought them in 1999..

As far as power levels, Right now there are no rules regarding DTV power limits ( up or down) but in interference cases The FCC has allowed stations to lower power.. Most stations that I know of that are operating at low power are on STAs..and filed 302s when they signed on.

Please note that with the exception of the captioning issues (which is waiting on a software fix and the new equipment) as far as I know we are in compliance with the rules you mention.

As well as,

At full licensed power, with active PSIP, and GPS locked for frequency stability..

As I said in an earlier post, from what I can tell I think the local stations(that of course includes KET too) for the most part are doing a fine job "policing themselves" to be compliant with FCC rules. Furthermore, I think the local DTV stations are doing a fine job meeting FCC requirements, I certianly have no complaints, not, of course, that I would necessarily have a complaint even if stations weren't in compliance with some of the FCC rules ...

I merely said that I find some, specific -- let's say, "circumstances" which I have seen concerning local DTV stations(in general) + FCC rules "interesting".

For instance, of any of the DTV stations I have received, only WLWT-DT sends EIA-708 captioning in a manner that one of my DTV receiver's(which only supports EIA-708, and perhaps in a bit "different way" than many other receiver models) can properly display captioning. No Other SD, or HD DTV sources. Only WLWT-DT - So far. I'll be using this receiver for a long, long time, we'll see how long it takes(if ever) until I get CC with this receiver from all the stations when "available". My other receiver sees EIA-608 captions from DTV stations just fine(Being a "early" receiver, It doesn't support EIA-708 captions at all), and just about all the stations in the area seem to send 608 captions properly via their DTV stations.

Anyhow, mostly, What I meant to try to illustrate by my previous post concerned instances, in which say, there is a specific circumstance when a station might not be, exactly, say, quite 100% "off the hook" given any very "specific" non-compliance issue if hypothetical station doesn't have a waiver or "agreement" on the issue with FCC/etc. Of course, from what I understand, depending upon circumstances, from my understanding, FCC is often very understanding in these circumstances, and especially so when various "uncontrollable circumstances" may actually be preventing the station from being, completely in compliance with every little "detail" --- As it should be. .............. In other words, What Doc said ......

Some details from the rules In order to hopefully help further clarify most of the comments made in my immediately preceding post:

Follows is an excerpt from FCC report and order concerning adoption of EIA-708 Captioning standard for DTV - FCC # 00-259 - (Full document available here: Http://ftp.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Orders/2000/fcc00259.txt ) ..adopted, July 21, 2000. Under the "compliance dates" section:

"As provided for in the Commission's rules establishing requirements for the closed captioning of video programming adopted in a 1997 Order, programming prepared or formatted for display on digital television receivers before the date that digital television decoders are required to be included in digital television devices is considered "pre-rule" programming. As stated above, this order establishes that date as July 1, 2002. Therefore, programming prepared or formatted for display on digital television after that date will be considered new programming. The existing rules require an increasing amount of captioned new programming over an eight-year transition period with 100% of all new nonexempt programming required to be captioned by January 1, 2006."

:end quote

Here's some info from an outside source on this issue :

http://www.robson.org/gary/captioning/dtv-standards-july2000.html

-------------------------------------------

Concerning my second point in above post. An excerpt From Paragraph 11 of "MM Docket No. 00-39 MEMORANDUM OPINION AND ORDER ON RECONSIDERATION - This order was Adopted by FCC : November 8, 2001" (entire document availalbe here: ( http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Mass_Media/Orders/2001/fcc01330.txt )

" ....Stations that were subject to the earlier construction deadlines (top four network affiliates in the top thirty markets) will remain subject to the previous rule - i.e., they must operate their DTV station at any time that the analog station is operating. This distinction is consistent with our prior treatment of these stations. In establishing earlier build-out deadlines for these stations in the Fifth Report and Order, we noted that "the most viewed stations in the largest television markets can be expected to lead the transition to DTV" and that these stations are "likely to have substantial revenues that may be used to fund the conversion."

:end quote

----------------------------------------------

Concerning DTV STA's/power levels/etc (I consider a STA granted by FCC as a "operating permit") and current power requirements for DTV stations, This is also from the document referenced immediately above : ( http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Mass_Media/Orders/2001/fcc01330.txt ) -

It would take too much room here to quote everything I'd like on these issues form this document, so, for those interested I'll refer you to section B+C of document. Also, I believe FCC is planning on addressing "power requirements/replication issues and the "Deadlines" involved more thoroughly in the currently ongoing, 2nd DTV review.

But, here's A short excerpt from "Section III, DTV STA's", Paragraph 34 which pertains to those stations with 5/1/02+5/1/03 buildout deadlines(stations, such as the ABC, NBC, CBS and Fox Affiliates in Cincinnati(Market #30 at the time) were subject to an earlier Buildout deadline ) :

Licensees must construct at least the minimum initial facilities required to serve their community of license by May 1, 2002 (commercial) or May 1, 2003 (noncommercial).

:end quote

----------------------------------

Also, I won't mention the specifics involved, but I can tell you, on one occasion, I personally have some experience with the last comment I made in my last post. Lets just say, Chief Engineer of "A DTV Station" had told me that against his advisement, he was told by his superiors to reduce power(to 25% of their STA) to save on Utility bills, and for no other reason. Luckily, it didn't last long -- Only a month or so before they returned to the power levels as specified in the STA which they were operating with. Still, This was done without filing for a "new" STA for the new power level, and without contacting/notifying FCC of the reduced power operation. This is not "OK", or in compliance with FCC rules. I have also heard similar stories from others "in the know" in specific cirucmstances, but lets hope this sort of thing is an exception, and exceptions which only occured in the past .....

Originally posted by William Smith
As far as power levels, Right now there are no rules regarding DTV power limits ( up or down) but in interference cases The FCC has allowed stations to lower power.. Most stations that I know of that are operating at low power are on STAs..and filed 302s when they signed on.


The power level specified in a station's Construction permit(CP) IS the "maximum power level" that station is allowed to operate at. Of course, a station can apply for a modification to that CP, or, apply for a modification to existing facilties/etc, to operate with more, or less power, lower/higher antenna height/different antenna pattern/etc. When a station applies for such a change, among other things, they must demonstrate that the proposed new facilities won't "interfere" with another station's service areas/etc. There is however, a set "Maximum power limit" a station can operate at in any circumstance -- For "DTV Power" and UHF, it is 1000KW ERP. I don't recall the lo/HI VHF Maximum power level for DTV.

As I said before, stations are required to operate their facilities within the parameters specified in their operating permit. These parameters not only include power, but also antenna height, antenna pattern/etc. This operating permit could involve the parameters specified in the station's Construction Permit, License(which "covers" the construction permit, as is the case presently with WCVN-DT), OR, this operating permit could be a STA, or, in circumstances involving temporary technical issues, it could even involve an "unpublished" agreement with FCC. Where DTV STA operation and the current situation is concerned(It's a bit different for DTV STA's presently, than what a STA means for other services, such as analog TV, AM/FM broadcast service), the specifics are covered in the Nov. 8, 2001 FCC document I referenced in my last post. The only requirement that is in effect presently(given stations with 5/1/02 and 5/1/03 buildout deadlines, anyway) is that the station operate facilities which will "cover" their community of license. For now, stations can operate with such "minimum facilities" under STA and still achieve "service area protection" for the DTV station, as if the actual service area of the DTV station replicated the analog counterpart.


Also, along the lines of what you pointed out on this issue, when "interference" issues become a problem among stations/etc, stations will then work with each other(hopefully anyway) and FCC to solve the problem, and operate with facilities which will hopefully minimize such interference issues, while still "protecting" each involved station's service areas. "Full service" and class A stations have "interference protection" for their service areas, as do DTV stations currently running STA's -- Although, at some point, the latter will likely change, and I suspect it will be the same "use it or lose it" "policy" as is the case with NTSC TV service.

On the issues of captioning for DTV, Most equipment manufacturers (and others) assumed that when DTV caption rules were adopted the receivers would be made compatible with both 608 and 708 captions. Since 608 is the existing analog standard it would have made since not to re-invent the wheel for SD programming. It came as a surprise to everyone that DTV receivers were allowed to be 708 only. This need for transcoding captions resulted in development time for hardware and software to handle the situation. Some are moving faster than others..

Plus there is now the caption switching issue as 708 captions are not embedded with the video like NTSC. The captions have to be added to the MPEG stream just like the audio through a separate input...

Captions are a sore spot for me as my wife is a teacher/interpreter for hearing impaired children..I hope to have the software upgrades (that work this time)soon. I have had many electronic conversations concerning DTV captions with Gerry Field at WGBH who is considered an expert on captioning.



BTW The coverage area of WCVN-DT exceeds the predicted coverage area of WCVN. And yes we have licenses for all 16 stations as built and on the air..

Originally posted by William Smith
It came as a surprise to everyone that DTV receivers were allowed to be 708 only......

..... Plus there is now the caption switching issue as 708 captions are not embedded with the video like NTSC. The captions have to be added to the MPEG stream just like the audio through a separate input...


Which I think is an unfortunate situation, presently. Really doesn't make sense to me, for DTV receivers to be 708 only, especially at this time.

With the particular receiver I'm using that's 708 only(+ the particular display device used), the "embedded" analog captions will pass through to the display device which can then handle the captions properly given, lets say, "properly formatted" SD sources --- But ONLY IF NTSC 480i composite video is being output by the receiver(S-video works too). Interestingly, analog captions also work in this manner via WKRC-DT, even when HD is being broadcast. It doesn't work in any circumstance, no matter if source is SD/HD/etc, If I'm sending 1080i/720p/480p from the receiver via Component/RGB video, and of course, wouldn't work at all(even with 480i output from receiver) if you were using a display device that didn't support implementation of 608 captioning ... This receiver(Zenith HDV420) won't send 480i over Component/RGB, so Don't know if that would work ...

Just around 12am, I'm dozing off while watching Dave on WKRC-DT, and I notice ....

WKRC-DT Off air ....

My memory might be failing me, but, in over 2 years, I don't recall seeing this happen before .... If only enhanced propagation(tropo) was in the air ... Oh well, back to reading eyelids ...


Update: totally unrelated but ... Hmmm ... This is interesting ... Nice page even with nice antenna pics too! I've never seen it before :

http://www.wkrc.com/hdtv/receiving_hdtv.aspx

Again, my memory may be fuzzy, but I'm Not so sure I've seen this either(note - url shown as "Having trouble receiving WKRC-DT? on this page which I believe should link to URL above page is incorrect/broken on this page) :

http://www.wkrc.com/hdtv/default.aspx

Anyhow, I like it!

Just watching back tapes and noticed WKRC-DT hitting local commercial breaks. Did they do this all week? Also noticed the WKRC-DT ID bug for the first time in a LONG time. Did they get an integrated switcher, or did an advertiser get an HDTV <g>? Maybe the off-air time Jeff reported was for some sort of install. With Webhopper, they CAN'T be off for long.

Doc

I also noticed tonight WKRC-DT dropped the HD feed early .. Sometime between 10:30-11pm - WHIO-DT had CBS HD until 11pm ...

Interesting concerning the local breaks ... I hadn't noticed that ... I was checking the It's all here promo (I think it was Thursday night) after they had went down to see if I noticed any change in compression artifacts ... I didn't ... I have also seen the ID at TOH several times in last week or so, and come to think of it, it has been quite a while since I've noticed it as well ...

They were evidently off air for quite a while that night, as I'd heard a report that they were down(or at low power - report was from a distant viewer) early the next morning as well .... So, just a WAG, but I'm guessing they were down for some sort of "maintainence" or equipment swap/etc. that took a while ..

Also, the afternoon before they went off air, I noticed they were in "blank screen mode" for a bit ...

Another thing I noticed that happened the afternoon they were in "blank screen mode" for a few mintues was that the signal quality readings I get from them suddenly went up about 5-10% or so here, back to the readings I used to get from them "way back when":

From Nov. 2001 until about ~9 months ago, on the DTC-100, for instance, I was gettting "88" with antenna aimed towards their tower(all the time no fluctuation), and about "50" and solid reception with the antenna I have aimed towards Dayton(approx. 155 degrees off target from Cincy towers - You can just imagine what Multipath does to the Cincy analogs).

Then, between 9 months ago or so and wednesday afternoon, the "88" had changed to "82"(again, all the time, no fluctation - no matter how much Ice was on antenna/etc) with Cincy antenna, And "40" or so off the Dayton antenna ... Now, ever since then it's back to exactly "88" and "50" again ... Of course, "82" or "88" could mean "82" or "88" or "1,000" with this thing ... So, Hard to say, but from what I can tell(For instance, since I've allways been able to receive them pretty much no matter what the antenna heading), I don't think the change had anything to do with the "RF power/signal" side of things, and from what I could tell I don't think it had anything to do with adjacent channel WRGT-DT 30(12 Miles) Dayton either. Very basically+not exactly technically "correct", but I think it generally just means the datastream+The signal just looks a tad bit "cleaner" to the receiver Now(and prior to 9 months ago or so) for "some reason" ....

Doc,

Certianly looked like WKRC-DT was hard switching between CBS HD feed+local commercials during yesterday's Superbowl coverage ..

It might have just been me since it's been a while since I had a chance like this to compare between the two, but for the most part, I thought it did look better than usual(compression artifact wise) last night than was the case on WHIO-DT. Not as good as it should be still, of course ..

I wonder why WKRC-DT didn't have the audio in 5.1? I thought the picture was good, but you could see that it was compressed especially on the fast motion shots. Some of the CBS cameras where SD only so this may have been the cause of some artifacting. Overall, it looked good.

I thought that WKRC-DT also looked better than WHIO-DT. However, the LOCAL 12 bug on SD is very stupid. Why do they need to change that? The old 12WKRC was big enough! Channel 9's 9 I would say would be the best, but none would be better. Also, Independence Day looked OK on WXIX-HD. I hope that they will switch to HD next fall. If you guys know, will FOX shut down the Widescreen distribution system when the new HD one goes online, or will the two coexist?

Dogg..
Good question. I'd speculate that it all depends on how the rollout goes for the HD gear. Might need to be some overlap. OTOH, the few Fox affiliates who DO Widescreen strike me as the ones more likely to be ready when the HD switch is made, especially if Fox is footing the bill for the net-to-station gear. The rest appear to be reluctant to switch at ANY cost.

Doc

Thank you Doc for the reply. I didn't realize that Fox network would be paying for the equipment needed. Otherwise I would expect many Fox stations to be very upset. Seeing that WXIX does have HD capabilities, if they got the network feed, I would suspect that the signal could be run over fiber and broadcast like the other HD networks. I look foward to WXIX-HD having HD, Fox is really coming into their own, I like them better now than NBC, which I used enjoy their programing until recent. WLWT is one station that doesn't get me as a viewer other for Leno.

Dogg..
I imagine the cable companies will add WXIX-DT once they start passing some HD programming. That seems to be a major issue in moving to HD. I also suspect it's the reason Fox is adding its ED signals to DirecTV in O&O markets. With no must-carry law that covers DTs (while a sister analog is still on the air), Fox stations are being left off of cable digital tiers and that concerns them.

What interests me is the mixed signals we're getting from NBC. All this talk about multicasting.. then, suddenly, they commit to the not-exactly-inexpensive venture of covering the Daytona 500 in HD. Wonder if they have any idea how much more viewership arena football would be if it were in HD. Ok, probably not much, but ANY additional eyes would be good for the sport. Go Swarm. Oh, that's right. They folded <G>.

Doc

Originally posted by JunkyardDogg
will FOX shut down the Widescreen distribution system when the new HD one goes online, or will the two coexist?

Just WAG and speculation -- But, I'm thinking what might happen is anything Fox doesn't do in HD will be upconverted at the network level and sent out over the 720p Feed, and that we'll still see some of the "Fox High resoulition Digital widescreen" stuff(or whatever they call it), which is now sent to fox affiliates as 16x9 NTSC video(480i "anamorphic" in a 4x3 frame).

I could be wrong, but it wouldn't make much sense to me to use both distribution systems when it should be unnecessary ... PBS, for example upconverts Their SD Widescreen stuff to 1080i at the network+sends it with the same, 1080i Feed to its affiliates ...

At least I hope that's what happens, so if they aren't doing a particular program in HD we'll still get it in "Fox Widescreen" ... -- For example --- I'd rather see 16x9 "Fox Widescreen" than 4x3 SD for say, any given Nascar race ...

I do wonder what WXIX-DT will send us and what sort of changes we might see from them, since it seems they'll have to do a little bit of "work" anyway ... 720p, or upconverted to 1080i ... I can't find it now, but I had heard that Raycomm is, or at least was very committed to 1080i ...


.

Informative post on Fox's distribution plans which could effectively remove or at least diminish the chances for Weirdscreen: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3323190#post3323190

Doc

Yes, that's a great article, very informative. As is the thread. Seems like their plan has come together quite quickly. I'm looking forward to hearing more about it, hopefully when the time comes from the various enginners at Fox affiliates that post on AVS.

Unless I read it wrong(where else would the splicer go), sounds like Thomson is going to be installing the splicing system at at least some of the affiliates, ... I wonder if WXIX or WRGT is on "the list" ....(It does say on Sinclair's website that WRGT-DT is "HD ready" - not that I'm expecting any "miracles")

Talking about it doesn't usually seem to work out too well -- Nevertheless --- Maybe I haven't been watching at the right times, but lately I haven't seen the weirdscreen problem from 'xix to much .... Last Sat. Night's "Mad TV"(at least at beginning, didn't check back) was the only time I've seen weirdscreen lately ....

Sunday's weekend Fox sports shows - were all weirdscreen and, this time, the phone call didn't fix it. But that's the only one I've seen in a while.

Before I try to contact them If this issue continues to be a problem --- I'm wondering if anyone else is noticing the following issues with WCET-DT(OTA), which I've been experiencing on RCA DTC-100 and Zenith HDV420 receivers - I had seen this happen every now and then in the past, but since they've went to a nightly HD schedule, it's happening more and more often :

Unless it's something with both of my receivers --- I've noticed WCET-DT seems to be having a hard time going into HD mode about 1/2 the time since they've started their nightly 7-11pm HD schedule ...When it isn't working right(like tonight), They're dropping the programming on the 48-4+48-5 and I'm Not getting a lock on 48-4+5 but their still there as "placeholders", whearas 48-1 (34-1 non remapped on DTC-100) isn't showing up at all, as it should be when they are in HD mode ...

So whearas normally, when they are in HD mode I get:

48-1 - PBS HD
48-2 - WCET 48 simulcast
48-3 - PBS Kids

When it "messes up" I'm getting the following -- Just like when they are in "SD mode", but nothing on 48-4+5 :

48-2 - WCET simulcast
48-3 - PBS Kids
48-4 - Blank - no lock or DD audio indictor
48-5 - Blank - No Lock or DD audio indicator

-----------------

Also, Over last weekend too(It's fixed now), Audio was "mixed around", on some of the subchannels with audio from PBS HD channel coming up on 48-2/etc (I could hit "audio" button on the Zenith Box and switch to the right stream though - I didn't actually check it on the DTC-100)

Same behavior on WCET-DT with a Samsung SIR-T160.

Greg

I having the same problem with the CET channels. 48-2 48-3 are the only channels I am receiving with 48-4, 48-5 having no video. 48-1 is not being mapped,which started happening over the weekend is when I noticed the problem. My TV is a Zenith C34W37 with the integrated HDTV Tuner. I did noticed it happening a month or so ago but it only lasted a few nights. I have a Samsung SIR-T150 and has the same problem with CET-HD.

Thanks for the reports -- I sent WCET-DT a note as well as link to this page -- Some of my contact info for them might be old though, but I'll post if I hear anything .....

Heard back from WCET-DT already, and they are working on the issue. Follows is reply I received from Jack Dominic at CET:

I will forward to engineering. We have been having problems with PSIP.
For sure that was the cause of the audio abnormalities. We have been
working with Harris to address the PSIP issue and your feedback will help
us. Thanks

jtd

WLWT -NBC HD not coming in tonight for Ed. Time Warner guide says it should be in HD. Anyone else having this problem?

ED Not HD on WLWT-DT OTA at 9~9:10pm --- ED IS HD on WKEF-DT Dayton ....

Also .... WXIX-DT off air Today/Tonight .. The problem is not in your set ...

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
Heard back from WCET-DT already, and they are working on the issue. Follows is reply I received from Jack Dominic at CET:

I will forward to engineering. We have been having problems with PSIP.
For sure that was the cause of the audio abnormalities. We have been
working with Harris to address the PSIP issue and your feedback will help
us. Thanks

jtd

Everything is back to normal as of tonight 48-1 is now working. The PSIP problem has been fixed.


:)

WCET-DT has HD earlier than normal today(sat afternoon) ... It seems to be unscheduled, so maybe they are doing some "tweaking" or something ....

Not sure when they started the HD, but I just found our guests, instead of channel surfing, sitting, Glued to PBS HD ... I've been busy last couple of hours, but evidently they've been watching quite a while(They were talking about Something on the Colorado River/Grand Canyon(maybe the River of Iron thing) .....

I imagine they are continually working on things to try to make it better, but looks like to me that the compression artifacts seem to be improved a bit from WCET-DT HD presently(and last night, and a couple of other occasions I've seen recently).

However, Not that I'm complaining about it, or that I mind, as for "now" anyway --- I can watch WCET 48 for the analog programming ....
BUT the SD services appear to be VERY low bitrate and quite unwatchable at times, IMO - presently, and last night .... I've noticed this on some other occasions when they are in HD mode the past couple of months especially, as well ..

I do wonder though if TW folks have ever noticed(such as now) low-bitrate SD presently From WCET-DT's SD simulcast of WCET analog, or PBS kids when WCET-DT also has HD available ...

Time Warner is now offering the PACE DC550P HDTV box. This box fixed problems I was having with DVI and Samsung DLP. It is capable of 1080i with mainteance mode settings.

Also I will post the secret menu for the Pioneer box that will allow 1080i to be set as well since I have seen issues requesting this.

I am looking for a manual for a Sylvania SRZ3000 HD OTA tuner if anyone can help with that as well.

WKRC-DT audio sync has been fixed both with this new box as well as on the pioneer box, as the problem was primarly with WKRC.

I will be monitoring this thread in the future so if anyone has WebHopper questions I will be happy to assist or inform accordingly.

Ken

Ken,

Welcome to AVSForum ...

Don't know if you've tried this, you probably have ... I tried searched for SRZ3000's owner's manual at this site(covers sylvania stuff), it wasn't found, but it does provide information on contacting customer support(including a forum which doesn't seem to have a catagory for ATSC receivers for some odd reason) to order hard copies :

http://www.funai-corp.com/support/manuals.asp

--------------------------------------

On Webhopper, I'd be interested to know:

#1). how you are handling/allocating bandwidth at WKRC-DT for webhopper .. For instance .. are you using statistical multplexing/oppurtunistic bandwidth/"non-oppurtunistic bandwidth - and how much of it ... As I posted earlier on this thread, a WKRC enginner had told me they are allocating 15mb/s to CBS HD, and WKRC-DT's ancillary services report to FCC indicated (IF I read it right) 4 mb/s is being "used" by webhopper, but it isn't specific concerning so called "opputunistic bandwidth" ... or any other details ...

#2). Was wondering if you are, or are planning on implementing webhopper elsewhere in the area, or if you are planning on using any other means of delivery(or available spectrum) in the future other than via ATSC DTV stations?

Thanks,

--------------------------------------------------

Update: All --

Forgot to mention -- Checked WCET-DT tonight+their SD services when they are in "HD Mode" seemed to look much less bandwidth starved than was the case in the past couple of nights. It appears to me that they might be using statistical Multiplexing, as the SD subs seem to have compression artifact problems(minor when I've looked tonight when compared to last couple of nights anyway) when the HD "needs" more bandwidth, not as a result of any necessarily bandwidth demanding portions of SD programming --- I've actually been noticing this for the past few months now when they are in HD mode, with the PQ on SD services suffering to differing degrees at different times, I'm just assuming because they've been working on optimizing things as much as possible ...

Was at Tri-County Mall tonight and I stopped into the TW Store to inquire about the SA8000HD box- not available yet. There a big meeting next Thursday to go over future programming and hardware changes. Picked up the new Pace 550 box while I was there. I'll be taking back my SA3100HD. Need to get a DVI cable now.

TW Wisconsin has them already. Could be a test site not sure.

The latest news for NASCAR fans is the Daytona 500 will be in HDTV with Dolby 5.1. But after checking with all the stations here as far as the info I have none have Dolby Sound at this time.

Where did you find the info on DD 5.1? Unless something has changed, NBC has said it will be produced in "Dolby Surround".

Daytona 500 HD info here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=354827

All stations in the area can pass AC-3/DD 2.0 "Pro logic II - Dolby surround". AC-3 audio is part of the ATSC standard. NBC has reported Daytona 500 will be produced in Surround(which is matrixed with DD 2.0), not 5.1 discrete channels as is the case with DD 5.1.

Stations in the area I know of which have DD 5.1 capability currently(of course, the programming involved must be produced with DD 5.1+the station must pass it) are:

Cincinnati area :
WCVN-DT
WCET-DT

Dayton:
WDTN-DT(most, if not all ABC HD programming is aired with DD 5.1)
WPTD-DT
----------------------------

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe NBC has offered any programming in DD 5.1 to date ...

Your are correct on the Race being in Pro logic II - Dolby surround. I was wrong on that point.
But as for the big 3 here ABC/CBS/NBC if there were network 5.1 available as in the case with CBS. None of those 3 local stations can handle it at this time.
It is interesting that the Public stations are the only ones with DD 5.1 and the local network stations are still moving towards it. I can understand the issue with FOX since the network hasn't even moved to true HD and is only doing WideScreen SD.

On another note I am going to be getting a OTA HDTV reciever and was wondering if anyone has any comments, tips, or tricks that would be helpful.

I am aware of the signal issues involved since installing WebHopper throughout the Tri-State are I get to deal with all that on a daily basis. But just a FYI WKRC-DT signal SNR is now going out at almost 34 SNR instead of about 29-30 in the past. This has occured in the last 10 days after much mainteance on the transmitter and exciter equipment.

Originally posted by WebHopperWeasel
But as for the big 3 here ABC/CBS/NBC if there were network 5.1 available as in the case with CBS. None of those 3 local stations can handle it at this time.


Very true. I might be remembering it wrong, but I believe WCPO-DT(ABC) may be planning on doing DD 5.1 when they move into their new facilites ...

Originally posted by WebHopperWeasel
On another note I am going to be getting a OTA HDTV reciever and was wondering if anyone has any comments, tips, or tricks that would be helpful.


For the most part, if you can get good analog reception(not much snow or ghosting), you should be able to get good DTV reception in our area as well -- So, if you can "optimize" your analog reception(on UHF+VHF) before you get the receiver, you should be pretty much good to go. I'm sure you already know this given your work for webhopper, but A directional, outdoor antenna aimed at the towers is a great idea(not that it's necessary in most circumstances) --- WCPO-DT is on VHF, rest on UHF ... Unless you have terrain issues at your location, you should have a shot at the Dayton stations from Milford as well ... WSTR-DT/WB Cincinnati is using a directional transmitting pattern, which doesn't send much RF energy in your direction, so that one might be hard to pull in. They don't have WB HD yet, however.

If you have any problems once you get your receiver, feel free to ask -- Also, I'm sure somewhere here(or elsewhere on AVS) will have model-specific info ..

Originally posted by WebHopperWeasel
This has occured in the last 10 days after much mainteance on the transmitter and exciter equipment.

Thanks for the interesting info. As I posted earlier in this thread, I noticed an improvement in the signal quality readings on my receiver around that time from WKRC-DT. WKRC-DT allways puts an excellent signal into here(32 Miles - I'm between Middletown+Germantown). I can receive it easily indoors with a $2 folded dipole(wire in shape of a bowtie)+with my tower mounted, directional antenna(w/rotor) outdoors, I can pick up WKRC-DT pretty much no matter which direction I aim the antenna .....

This Month's HD-one movie, "Beverly Hills Cop" is scheduled for a SD showing on WKRC-DT at 2:05am late night Saturday ....

Will we see a HD airing on WKRC-DT this weekend also ? We'll see ....

I've also noticed they've gotten very good with switching in and out of local. Still obviously manual, but getting those local spots on the DT has become important. While I'll miss the "It's All Here" promo, this is actually a good thing.

Doc

I agree Doc. It is a good thing. I've seen them miss the switch back to HD a couple of times, but mostly just the first couple of days after they started doing it.

Jeff..
I'm starting to wonder if WXIX-DT only signs on for days where there is Fox WS programming. This makes the third week (if memory serves) where they were only on Sunday and Tuesday thru Thursday.

Could be ... Usually they do have stuff on Fri night Fox WS too, at least Boston Public is WS on Fri nights, although it hasn't been scheduled the past couple of weeks ... Of course, They haven't had WS on Wed nights either because of U.C. games, even though Fox sends "O.C." in Widescreen .... + xix airs in in a different time slot ...

Of course, with WPTO-DT going on WXIX tower, I suppose that could potentially mean some down time for work on the Transmitter/shacks/etc, or LP operation for WXIX/WXIX-DT due to RF exposure regs for the tower workers ...

Luckily, looks like soon I won't even have to mess with xix' anymore(at least I hope), since WRGT-DT 30 Dayton should soon have Fox Widescreen .... they(and all the rest of the Dayton stations) don't seem to have any problems with 24/7+354 operation. Unfortuently though, Per FCC site, WRGT-DT's antenna pattern probably ain't so great towards Cincy, and having WXIX-DT+WKRC-DT right next door to them probably doesn't help much either ...

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
24/7+354 operation The planet speeds up and, once again, I'm the last to know. I HATE that.

What's WRGT's power? I know WHIO-DT's not up to full tilt.. I can only get them in the summer or if I phase a second yagi. WRGT-DT also makes the DTV light blink, but rarely locks and I've never gotten a picture.

Doc

Did any other Time Warner customer notice some very subtle (not like CBS and PBS here) blocking artifacts during the Peter Gabriel concert on InHD last night?

It made me wonder if there is some rate shaping going on at Warner now.

Then again, this was the most demanding HD-shot 1080i material that I have ever seen. Lots of fast pans and crane shots with strobing lights. Have I seen the limitations of 1080i at 19.4 Mbps?

Strobes will do it. You should see basketball games where flash photography is allowed. I'd rather watch those on analog!

And yet in the hardware formats there are those who claim we don't need anything better than 19.4Mbps MPEG-2.

Oops! I thought I typed 365 days for a year .... Trying to do too much multitasking I suppose ...

Originally posted by DrDon
What's WRGT's power?


I'm really not sure. Their CP is for 425KW ERP, but a STA granted on 10/03 is for 15.3KW ERP that shows up on FCC site. Their CE told me back in fall 02 they were at "full power" at that time ...

The antenna pattern shown on FCC site for both the Full power STA+CP is the same --- Optimized to the East+NE towards Springfield. Viewers in Columbus report getting it, with the best signal of all the Dayton DT's ....

It's a .263 relative field value shown in my direction, which would be 1058 WATTS ERP given the 15.3 KW ERP STA (relative field value SQUARED x 15,300 watts) is how you figure that ...

If they're running 425KW ERP, it would be 29.3KW sent towards me ...

If it's the STA, then that 1KW sure is doing one hell of a job, as I can pretty much get the thing no matter what I do+the best of the Dayton DT's, even with just a wire sticking out of back of TV ... That's from 13 miles with terrain issues+lots and lots of trees .... When WKRC-DT went down for a time a couple weeks back, I was able to get them WRGT-DT 30 solidly with antenna aimed towards Cincy. The meter goes bouncy bouncy and I get it about 1/2 of the time w/o dropouts even with WKRC-DT up with antenna aimed towards Cincy(155 degrees off target from dayton) a lot of the time too. Of course, it isn't multipath that is making the meter go "bouncy bouncy" in this case .... Perfect reception of course of WRGT-DT If antenna is aimed anywhere near Dayton ...,

Anyhow, I've never noticed any change from them since they came up on 5/1/02.

Towards Cincy, For WRGT-DT depending upon receiving location it would be something like a ~.317~.379 relative field value, about 1.5~2.2 KW ERP w/15.3 KW STA, or about 43~61 KW ERP given 425KW ERP ..

WRGT/DT info from FCC site here(the Relative field polar plot gives you a good idea of the pattern w/o looking at the numbers :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=WRGT&arn=&city=&chan=0.0&chan2=69&serv=&facid=&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=

Of course, that's all just assuming the pattern is as shown on FCC site, it probably is, or is pretty close unless some Ice storm or something messed something up ...

WHIO-DT is running a 275KW ERP STA(Full power CP is 1000KW ERP), with the same antenna pattern as WCET-DT (Sort of like a spade "scrunched down" on top)... Except the Null is RIGHT towards me+WDRB 41 Louisville's tower, instead of to the South like WCET-DT ... I get a .19 relative field value from them, and about 9KW ERP which is way more than enough. I get'em with antenna aimed towards Cincinnati.

depending upon where in Cincy area, Cincy should get anything from .837(193KW ERP(((say over near amelia) to .331(30 KW ERP - say over near Greendale, IN) from WHIO-DT ... Right towards Downtown Cincy+Florence pretty much should be about .551 relative field value, or about 84KW ERP.

WHIO/DT info from FCC site here:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=WHIO&arn=&city=&chan=0.0&chan2=69&serv=&facid=&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=

All the other Dayton DT's are non-directional. WBDT-DT 18's Full power CP is 35KW ERP(They've filed for a license to cover for that), being right next to WXIX 19 probably doesn't help for Cincy viewers ....Being on a "Low-UHF" channel should help though a little "noise" off the backside from WLEX 18 lexington might not help either, although I've on occasion(tropo scatter from WLEX) seen BOTH stations perfectly(given proper antenna aiming) with neither station hurting the other too much ...

Anyhow, WDTN-DT is at at 125KW ERP STA(they've asked FCC for 1000KW ERP), WKEF-DT at 95KW ERP(their full power CP isn't for much more than that), WPTD-DT is at full power, 250KW ERP ...

ALL of them are way up there on the towers, WDTN-DT is even above the Channel 2 antenna. I believe WRGT-DT/WKEF-DT/WBDT-DT I believe are on top, or very close to top of a single tower with crossmember on top+multiple masts ... WRGT/WBDT share that tower too according to fcc site ... WHIO/DT tower is the farthest North, about a mile North of the others ... Its also the only tower that dates from the 50's, the others went up since 77 ....

WBDT-DT's (WB Dayton) License to Cover app has been sitting on FCC site for a long time(since 3/03, a few weeks after they came on air), and the info indicates it hasn't been granted yet, which is a bit odd. FCC issued them a 35KW ERP "full power" CP, don't know what the delay is, but I had heard something somewhere about 50KW being the "minimum" for full power CP --- Which seems odd, since FCC granted the 35KW ERP CP in the first place ... ... WBDT have said some time back they will do WB HD+were working on selecting equipment+the time line involved, hopefully it will be sooner rather than later ....

Probably more than you wanted to know ...

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
Probably more than you wanted to know ... But with the shorter year, I've got to cram in more information in less time. And what's this going to do to the song? "29 days hath September" just doesn't roll off the tongue.... <g>.

Doc

Originally posted by Michael St. Clair
And yet in the hardware formats there are those who claim we don't need anything better than 19.4Mbps MPEG-2.

That's all you can do with ATSC 8VSB in a 6MHZ RF channel. I'm happy with it if we get THAT for 1080i. Stations need mulitple encoders(expensive)/etc. to send seperate feeds to cableco's, whom I wouldn't think are likely to want anything more that what the station would send OTA anyway, becuase of bandwidth conservation concerns. ATSC 16VSB via cable does support 38mb/s datarate in 6MHZ, for instance.

Moving to say, MPEG4 or something else that might be better wouldn't work with any of the current, or in the forseeable future receivers out there. You can't have another DTV transistion in the middle of a DTV transistion. Maybe if you start putting the necessary chips in the decoders NOW for whatever works better, then in 15 years or so the transmission side can change to the "better" compression scheme. Of course, by that time, there will be even something better, so where do you stop and say "this is what we are using", and this is what we are going to stick with ... might have been different if receivers/decoders had been made to be easily user upgradable for any future improvement(not just compression either), but they weren't/aren't..

I don't know how much bandwidth you'd need to take care of the strobe issue, with mpeg2 anyway, it might take a LOT more than would be practical in any situation ....

NTSC has it's "minuses" too, which are usually taken into account during production .... Maybe something can be done about the strobe issue on the production or improvement in encoder side of things ...

As for the strobes, I've also seen a similar effect on WCPO-DT during a scene with a lot of lightning during HD broadcast of 'The Green mile" ... It really wasn't all that horrible, and WCPO-DT was upconverting to 1080i at the time though, so, with the SD weather channel next door, it probably would have looked better if they were at 720p.

Originally posted by DrDon
But with the shorter year,


At least we could have more birthday bashes ;-)

That's all you can do with ATSC 8VSB in a 6MHZ RF channel. I'm happy with it if we get THAT for 1080i.

I know. I'm talking about media formats, not broadcast.

HD disc (HD-DVD, AOD, Blu-Ray, whatever) should include either a codec upgrade or a bitrate upgrade, and preferably both.

At least D-VHS offers a 50% bitrate boost over broadcast HD.

Not just broadcast HD ... I'd guess the "HdNets"/etc too are probably going to be using MPEG2 at 19.3mb/s for a long time too ...Or at least, that's how it'll probably get to the consumer for a long time to come ... Would still be a quite difficult procedure which would take a long time I'd think, but it probably would be a little bit easier to "upgrade" the cable nets to a different codec than would be the case with broadcasters ... I don't expect anything like that to happen, for broadcasters or HD cable nets for a long, long time, but then again, who knows.

Having just 1's and 0's to work with can be a real PITA sometimes ....

As for HD-DVD, I can't wait. I haven't read up on it much, but I would imagine as with DVD, bitrate might be constrained somewhat by the data capacity of the media/program length/etc. I don't know about other codecs, but with MPEG2, since the encoder doesn't have to do the job in "real time", things can be much better ... Still don't know if it would solve the MPEG2 "strobe thing" though ...

HD-one movie "Beverly Hills Cop" in HD on WKRC-DT presently (8-10pm sat) ... Guess(just guessing) they're sticking with the Sat. night once a month schedule now, which Doc mentioned a couple of months back ...

According to the AVS programming sypnosis, we get the first 6 Trek movies, the Godfather movies+raiders of lost ark from HD-one between April+December! Up until now, "the Odd Couple+Witness" have been, IMO the best 2 titles they've aired in HD ....

I caught Raiders in HD when it aired on ABC a couple years ago, it was excellent PQ+OAR .. will be interesting to see if it looks like a different transfer for the July HD-one airing ... ALL of the HD-one movies have aired in OAR BTW ...

Oh, also noticed WXIX-DT up this afternoon/tonight ..

I've been really "bugged" by WKRC's new "Local 12" bug. I know this isn't strictly a HD issue, although it will be when the start applying to their DT channel. I emailed them with my complaint and here is their reply:

Mr. Keane,

Yesterday we made the bug smaller and further to the left. We continue to work on its transparency. This is a constant subject of discussion here at the station and I am aware that you are not alone in your opinion. I do appreciate any input you have, and I promise you, we'll keep working on it.

Jennifer Bucheit
Director of Creative Services
LOCAL 12
Twelve Creative Productions
1906 Highland Avenue
Cincinnati, OH 45219
513.763.5416
www.wkrc.com
www.twelvecreative.com

Jack..
Thanks for sharing the information. Maybe with the chunk of change they dumped on their new (SD) control room (which is VERY slick), it'll be awhile before they have enough to spend on a bug generator for the HD. They need an integrated master control switcher, first. And I imagine that, too, is way down the list of capital expenditures <g>.

Doc

The larger/more bugs, the less I watch local television.

Originally posted by Michael St. Clair
The larger/more bugs, the less I watch local television.

Yep. me too but I'd say all TV as these bugs are becoming pervasive on broadcast and cable.

To me it's just a constant broadcast of visual noise. At the risk of giving somebody at Clear Channel an idea... can you imagine a radio broadcast where the call letters were constantly recited at a slightly lower level than the program ? TV channel bugs are the visual equivalent IMO.

I watch very little local TV as it is but do try and watch PBS HD. CET's god awful channel bug has me watching less and less.

I certianly appreciate the fine job our local stations do in providing local+national programming, news and entertainment.

It is also no surprise to me that personel from the local stations don't participate more on our local threads. Here is a link to a local thread in the info and reception area of AVSforum where the situation is better:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=345332&highlight=Virginia

This thread, and this area of AVSforum is for "Local HDTV Info and reception". If you want to tell someone that you won't watch "such and such" station because of their bug, contact the station and tell them. Don't count on logos+other inserted graphics disappearing from Local or national program services however ....

When you consider that we live in one of the few cities where ALL of the network affiliates pass HDTV with decent power and antenna height, living with a transparent channel bug suddenly becomes a small price to pay. Plus, when it's ALL 16:9, those bugs will take up a lot less real estate, percentagewise. ;-)

Doc

I agree for the most part, with one exception being UPN which is not HD in Cincinnati or on a full powered signal either. Hopefully the move to ch 38 is still going to happen this spring.

They'll still be analog, though, won't they? Neither station has a digital assignment nor appears to be working to get one. Yet.

I don't know what they are going to do ...I assume they're going to build 38 analog, but who knows. With the Tuner mandate and all, on the one hand, it doesn't seem to make too much sense to build a new analog plant now -- The only reasons to build analog, it seems to me, is to keep serving those analog OTA viewers which haven't switched to digital yet and perhaps, another important consideration in this case ... Cost ... On the other hand, I could be wrong, but its probably going to be ~10 years or so before analog shut off time ...

If it were a "perfect world", they'd build digital on 38, UPN/WBQC-CA on one subchannel(HD would be nice too), and run WOTH-LP programming on a fairly low-bitrate SD subchannel on the digital on 38+Run UPN/WBQC-CA programming in analog on what will be WOTH-LP 25 .... I'm not counting on a perfect world though!

Either WOTH-LP/WBQC-CA could switch to digital, but they'd have to do it on their analog assignment, meaning the analog would have to go dark. Their owner had told me a couple years back that they "will go digital when there were enough viewers who could see it" ... I do think it's great they seem to be concerned with their analog OTA viewers ...

..... There are some stations across U.S. without a DTV channel assignment which has already turned the analog off+switched the digital on ... even "cable must carry" for digital apply in those circumstances ...

I think some Class A stations did get a digital channel assignment, but the DTV "table of allocations" was handed out by FCC around the time WBQC went from LP to Class A, which may be one reason why they didn't get one .... I don't know, but I doubt they could get a seperate DTV channel assignment now(or anytime before analog shut off time), and I don't think LP's can get one at all at this time... After all things are really crowded as is .... Heck, there really aren't any "really clean channels" available around here anyway, especially not on 2-51 ...

Originally posted by microbob
with one exception being UPN which is not HD in Cincinnati

The other exception of course being No WB HD in Cincy from WSTR-DT ...

I assume since 'Xix is doing Fox Widescreen now, they'll have Fox HD this fall too ... can't imagine why not ...

A viacom owned station just South of Columbus is BOTH a UPN AND WB affiliate, they run HD from both UPN+WB as well as the HD-one Movie package ... We'd be set(OTA people anyway) if they would have built the tower just a little closer to Dayton+Cincinnati ...

FWIW: Insight cable now offers an HD DVR. One of our sister station's guys says it's to die for. 40 hours SD, 8 hours HD. According to him, you can't tell it's recorded.

This from the cable company that, a year ago, had "absolutely no plans" to offer HD. Sounds like someone found a gold mine.

Doc

This thread, and this area of AVSforum is for "Local HDTV Info and reception". If you want to tell someone that you won't watch "such and such" station because of their bug, contact the station and tell them. Don't count on logos+other inserted graphics disappearing from Local or national program services however ....

If saying that larger, additional bugs cause me to watch less network television (I've never said I boycott local channels) drives away local personnel, then they are too thin-skinned to participate in a public forum.

I've been very tolerant of a single 'bug' for 'free' television, but when I start getting multiple instances of them on my screen, and they start getting larger or more opaque, I will say something about it. More people should.

And I won't be nasty about it, but I'll speak the truth. This is on-topic.

And if they won't listen, I won't whine or pout. I'll watch more HD-HBO, HD-Showtime, and more DVDs.

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
This thread, and this area of AVSforum is for "Local HDTV Info and reception".
Hmmm. Well, my comment concerning the CET bug on their PBS-HD programming WAS pertinent to "Local HDTV Info". However, it seems to me that the tremendous number of posts in these threads about the broadcast status of WXIX-DT & their wierdscreen problems have absolutely nothing to do with local HDTV because 480p upconverted is NOT high def.


I certainly appreciate the fine job our local stations do in providing local+national programming, news and entertainment.
:rolleyes: I'll reserve comment on this controversial statement because it really is off topic.


It is also no surprise to me that personnel from the local stations don't participate more on our local threads.
So this forum should be a local affiliate love fest per the previously quoted remark:rolleyes: I agree with Michael's assessment. But I really don't see very much criticism in these threads anyway. If they know about us at all I don't think local station personnel either have the time or care enough about our feedback to participate here.


Don't count on logos+other inserted graphics disappearing from Local or national program services however ....
Which means the issue should not be discussed here ? I would say the same about multicasting & bandwidth sharing services as well. Don't expect them to disappear anytime soon either. So that makes them verbotten topics as well Mr. Self Anointed Moderator ?


OK, I'm done. Flame back at will if it makes you feel better but be assured I won't be lurking around to read it. I'll leave you OTA geeks to have the private "tropo-skip gee-wiz I picked up Pittsburg last night" O-jerk that you obviously want this thread to be.

When I first posted about the Local 12 bug, I did not intend to set off a war between guys who should be allies.

The bug talk may not be strictly HDTV fare, but where else would you go with this topic and who else would care?

Geez o' pete. I'm just stating my opinion. I'm not trying to tell anyone what to discuss, nor am I trying to moderate. I think this thread should be open to any discussion which relates to info/or related topics concerning our local stations(not necessarily HD either) as well as info/etc on reception.

I referrenced another thread so those here could see how it works in another area where more personel from the stations do participate ... check it out, you might find it beneficial ......

I don't have any problem with discussion of bugs here either, when appropriate. I'm sure I've even mentioned a bug a time or two. What I was specifically addressing was, if you don't like the bugs+ aren't going to watch the station because of it/etc and are going to watch something else instead, contact the station+tell them. I think That's the place to address that particular issue, not here, but again, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong, but I doubt if anyone here cares if such and such is going to watch HBO instead of WKRC-DT ... If there is some tropo or e-skip going on, or TW has a new STB/etc, someone here MIGHT be interested in checking it out ...

As for the bugs, if you really want to know, I'd rather not have them either(at least not all the time), but they are going to be there. I'm not going to not watch programming I enjoy because of it. That's silly.

And actually, believe it or not, we do have personel from local stations which particpate on Cincinnati thread, I also know for a fact that personel from some other local stations monitor this thread .....

Carry on ...

While we're on the topic of local stations monitoring the thread, I had the opportunity to show our little gathering place to some people from WLWT, this morning. Blew them away. They had no idea ANYbody was watching 35. Just like WSTR, they were amazed to learn nearly everyone in our building has a set. They estimated "less than .1% of the viewing audience has HD." Whether or not that filters up the food chain or not, I dunno. Have to wait and see.

But it might be a good opportunity to throw a paper letter to them stating your satisfaction with their HDTV effort. While e-mails come and e-mails go, paper corrrespondence ends up in the public file.

Just a suggestion

Doc

I could be wrong, but I doubt if anyone here cares if such and such is going to watch HBO instead of WKRC-DT

I think some of us may like to know if others share our opinion (and it is obvious that many do). Discussing how we feel about something is not a substitute for calling/mailing/emailing the station to voice our concerns, but that doesn't mean there isn't a place for it, especially if it is done with cool heads and manners.

There is tons of stuff that gets discussed in here that I personally could care less about, but I don't complain about it.

Local bugs are a local issue. So are local subchannels, local webcasting, local format conversion, and anything else done that affects what we see on our screens locally. Bugs are fair game just as any of the other topics have been.

They had no idea ANYbody was watching 35.

As a starting point, they might want to ask Warner how many HD boxes have been deployed. I have two close personal friends who watch all the HD locals in real HD via TWC, and you'll never see either of them in AVS or discussion groups online; they have no interest.

Originally posted by DrDon
While we're on the topic of local stations monitoring the thread, I had the opportunity to show our little gathering place to some people from WLWT, this morning. Blew them away. They had no idea ANYbody was watching 35. Just like WSTR, they were amazed to learn nearly everyone in our building has a set. They estimated "less than .1% of the viewing audience has HD." Whether or not that filters up the food chain or not, I dunno. Have to wait and see.

But it might be a good opportunity to throw a paper letter to them stating your satisfaction with their HDTV effort. While e-mails come and e-mails go, paper corrrespondence ends up in the public file.

Just a suggestion

Doc

Good idea Doc, I'll have to do more letter writing. Usually I've been focused on correspondance with the CE's/etc. concerning "operational issues" (and to thank them for doing a fine job occasionally), but it wouldn't take a lot of time to write a short letter to each station about their HD, or lack of it in the case of WSTR-DT.

I'm a bit puzzled by the seemingly low(to me anyway) HD penetration estimations by these stations, however. I'm not sure how many households are in this DMA, but I do recall that in Dec. 2002, TW Cincy reported having either 6,000 or 8,000 subscribers to their HD service, and I would imagine that number has significantly went up since then. OTA wise, it's hard to make an estimation, but I've seen several hundred folks with OTA HD in the area post on various forums(not just AVS), and I would imagine the number is significantly more than that, depending upon how many folks who have OTA HD actually post on a internet HD related forum. You couldn't just go by sales of receivers locally, for example since many folks purchase their stuff off the net ...

Also, my understanding is that nationally, last I heard HD penetration is something like 3-5 million households or so. Who knows, but I wouldn't think percentage wise, the number would be much different in Cincinnati area, so one would THINK that we should be at somewhere in the 2-5% range by now .... I think .5% or so would have been an accurate figure 2 years ago or so ...

Sure, it's still a drop in the bucket, but the way it looks to me, the HD thing is starting to take off now ...

Originally posted by Michael St. Clair
I think some of us may like to know if others share our opinion

And now you know my opinion, I stand by my previous comments, which as I said, are my opinion on the matter. I can't speak for anyone else.

Originally posted by Michael St. Clair
As a starting point, they might want to ask Warner how many HD boxes have been deployed. They knew TW carried 35 and they knew Insight did. But they didn't know anybody actually was watching. BUT.. someone at the station has ordered 7 new plasma screens. Now, that's more than you'd need on any news set. One of the guys seemed to think they might be setting up a couple to use to monitor 35.

You have to see this from their perspective. They're cranking out television like they always have. The DT sits unobtrusively in a rack in master control. Because of the delay, they don't put one in the production rooms or in the studios because it's confusing. In the course of a workday, most of the employees never come across anything that has anything to do with HDTV. They don't encounter anyone who has one, sales doens't sell it and clients either don't own one or don't watch. Once a monitor or two turns up, they'll see it more often and it might start to matter.

The real impact comes from viewer contact. I'm often the only one who calls when a switch is missed. And that might be half an hour into a program. If the main channel went off, the switchboard would light up like a Christmas tree.

I remember when BOB and BOB2 were in our building. BOB2 was automated. The "off-the-air" bulb went out, so I never knew the thing was off the air. It sat off from 5AM until 10:45, when ONE GUY finally called the front desk. From that reaction, we all drew the conclusion that nobody was listening to BOB2. I'm sure the same thing happens with DTV. Ya gotta let 'em know you're out there.

Doc

Right now we don't have an easy way to automate "bug control" as they are inserted in the encoder. It is however an easy way for us to detect a problem as the spare encoder doesn't have a bug in it. Hence, no bug on air means somethings afoot..

I have gotten questioned as to why I have participated here more than once by TPTB. ( and afterward changed my sig line to eliminate any station reference)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nitewatchman
[B]I certianly appreciate the fine job our local stations do in providing local+national programming, news and entertainment.

It is also no surprise to me that personel from the local stations don't participate more on our local threads. Here is a link to a local thread in the info and reception area of AVSforum where the situation is better:

Trust me.... People are getting the word and are becoming aware of this thread in the Cincinnati area.

I am curious to know if anyone can tell me how many people subscribe or particpate in this thread.

Hey Hopper,

I live in Mt. Carmel and work in Milford. Nice to see you.

I still won't forgive you for stealing WKRC bandwith, though. ;)

Originally posted by WebHopperWeasel
I am curious to know if anyone can tell me how many people subscribe or particpate in this thread. Subscribe? No, but a look at the number of views minus the number of people posting might give you an idea of the number of lurkers, although MILES from accurate. For posters, you'd just have to go through and count us. And, don't forget, there are a bunch of threads in the archive area.

Doc

Originally posted by WebHopperWeasel
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nitewatchman
[B]Trust me.... People are getting the word and are becoming aware of this thread in the Cincinnati area.

That's good news.

In addition to Cincinnati thread(s), there is also the Dayton thread which is here ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3409500#post3409500 ). Some of those folks post here as well, but there are a number of folks watching the Cincinnati DTV/HD stations from Dayton who post on the Dayton thread, but don't post here. We sometimes end up discussing Cincinnati issues on the Dayton thread as well, mostly because of convienance. Also, as doc mentioned, there are a lot of folks who posted for a short time asking for help/advice, and they are probably spending their time enjoying watching HD instead of posting on AVS and contacting the stations/etc.

There are of course, likely many DTV/HD viewers(OTA and Cable) who have never even seen AVSforum, as well as other viewers of Cincinnati stations in more "fringe area" locations than Dayton. For instance, I know of a few folks on a regional DTV DX mailing list I partipate on whom got lucky with "tropo", and enjoyed the 2002 HD WEBN Fireworks on WKRC-DT.

Not necessarily relating to Cincinnati, but also, the folks in Columbus have an excellent HD/DTV forum set up which may be of interest to anyone at the stations whom are interested in the "state of HD/DTV" in this area. Personel(mainly CE's) from just about all the Columbus station particpate. Each columbus area station has its own forum area :

http://www.hdcolumbus.org/forums/default.asp

Originally posted by Michael St. Clair
I still won't forgive you for stealing WKRC bandwith, though. ;)

One of the reasons why I posted a link to local thread in Virginia in an earlier post was, If you read some of the posts from the Engineers and the input form viewers on that thread, you'll see that some stations are doing things such as turning off SD subchannels and allocating more bandwidth for HD events such as superbowl, and the PBS affiliate is experimenting with things such as using 720p, or 1440x1080/1280x1080i instead of 1920x1080i, even though 1080i is what PBS sends them for PBS HD channel. As you may know, one of our local PBS stations, KET/WCVN-DT does this, and sends PBS HD at 720p instead of 1080i .....

There are several references to this on the thread, as well as reports from viewers on the test, generally in posts made since End of January. Here's one relevant post from yesterday :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3411067#post3411067

I'm just speculating based on viewer reports, but I also noticed today that it seems the Lexington, KY CBS station may be experimenting with 720p presently :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3414114#post3414114

I believe we've discussed this sort of thing before, and FWIW, thought you, and others might like to see some interesting info concerning implementation/experimentation with different ATSC formats+ possible HD resolutions ...

Jeff,

Thanks for the info. I will read those threads.

I was advocating switching to 720p several months ago, particularly if broadcasting at 75% of bandwith becomes the norm. I'm sure I'm not the only one or the first. I don't think 1080i at MPEG-2 15Mbps is ever going to cut it.

Michael..
Hope like heck that the FCC doesn't extend must-carry to subchannels. Without guaranteed cable carriage, it won't be worth it for commercial stations to use subs for anything other than low-bandwidth services, such as WCPO-DT's Weather Channel. Plus, once ATSC set penetration approaches saturation, quality will become more of an issue. Even now, stations spend boatloads of money on boxes to make the analog picture just a teeny bit better than the competition. It'll take time, but this same thinking will eventually apply to DTV, too. All it takes is for one station to proclaim, "Nobody gives you better HDTV than we do." Then, it'll be ON.

Doc

Without guaranteed cable carriage, it won't be worth it for commercial stations to use subs for anything other than low-bandwidth services, such as WCPO-DT's Weather Channel.

Even if that happened, I would fear more services like 'WebHopper', where fees can be generated without production costs and ad salespeople.

Originally posted by Michael St. Clair
fees can be generated without production costs and ad salespeople. No, but you have phone line expenses (dial-up banks and T1), server maintenance, adverising, salespeople (different kind) equipment purchases and installation and tech support labor. As DSL, cellular and cable expand their internet services reach (and they will) keeping a profit margin on services such as Webhopper will be harder to do.

Doc

Well, I think HD is the future of television. Even though we are in a midst of a long, and complicated process of switching to DTV+ HD, There are those of us who already know this, but sooner or later, I expect Broadcasters will figure it out too, hopefully not after it's already too late ....

For a time, what we call NTSC SD now, was once called "High Defintion", and I expect someday, what we now call HD will just be called "TV" ...

Just curious if anyone watched that HD Dinasour show on Discovery HD on Monday nite, and if they had sporadic frame rate issues as I did. I watched it off DirectTV satellite. I had a fairly decent meter reading of 85%, but from time to time the frame rate seemed to go into "flicker". I'm wondering if that was at the network level or a problem with my reception. I will say this, when it wasn't flickering, it was HD at its best.

I haven't watched Discovery in a couple of weeks, but I'll be watching for problems when the exclusive Arctic miniseries starts tonite.

I'll be watching via TWC.

It was mentioned in an early post the Insight now offers HD DVR. Has anyone heard anything about when TWC will have the SA8000HD?

Hey! I just saw a spot on WKRC 12 about HD! It said to log onto WKRC.com and learn more about HD ... and what do you know, there is now a "What is HDTV?" Link/Graphic on the main page(left bottom sidebar) that leads to the HDTV info sections which I provided links to in earlier posts on this thread! The info should be quite informative for those looking for info(although the info concerning HDTV being mandated by 2006 is not quite correct), and I still especially like the info on the "difficulty receiving WKRC-DT" page: http://www.wkrc.com/hdtv/receiving_hdtv.aspx

Way to go WKRC :)

Originally posted by APorter
It was mentioned in an early post the Insight now offers HD DVR. Has anyone heard anything about when TWC will have the SA8000HD?

The Insight DVR has been a GREAT addition! I watch so much HDTV that it's nice to be able to record the shows I miss. I only wish I could add my own larger hard drive. Overall it's a great addition.

Originally posted by APorter
It was mentioned in an early post the Insight now offers HD DVR. Has anyone heard anything about when TWC will have the SA8000HD?

See this link for info about the TW HD-DVR.

http://www.gizmodo.com/archives/timewarners_hd_dvr.php

Webhopperweasel, TW has already started the roll out of this box besides just Green Bay. I have read of people in New York, SC and I believe NC who already have the SA8000HD box. Plus their are other areas that have an expected date to have in house. Every CSR I have spoken with has no clue about this box.

It would seem that today's announcement by Cinergy regarding delivery of high-speed internet over existing power lines will possibly doom over the air services like WebHopper. The Wall Street Journal reported that the power line modems cost about $30 and monthly charges will be slightly under DSL and cable charges. There is no need for installation as you simply plug the modem into any outlet.

Oh boy. I've been following the BPL thing for quite some time, and it's become an unfortunate situation. Hopefully I'm wrong, and it seems like I'll soon find out, but I'm afraid it's probably going to really mess up HF communications for those of us who use HF(ham, Short wave Broadcast listeners/etc) .... Here's some recent info:

http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2004/02/23/1/?nc=1

News Flash ... WB is going to air LOTR Trilogy in HD beginning with the first movie this fall ..... Along with the other WB HD programming, Will we be able to see it in HD on WSTR-DT Cincy, or WBDT-DT Dayton, and/or will the local Cableco's carry HD from those stations when/if they ever get around to sending us WB HD? ........

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=375580

Given the amount of money they're spending on news gear at 'STR, I'd say - unless the WB plans to start supplying affiliates with a Fox-style splicing system - they won't be able to afford HD, this year, assuming they're the least bit interested. Remember what they told me: the number of HD-equipped viewers in Cincinnati is "in the single digits." (see my much-earlier post)

Doc

I would suspect that they aren't very interested in HD, I think some of the below may illustrate this a bit. I suppose it wouldn't hurt if as many HD viewers as possible contact them and ask for HD, although we've tried that before, and evidently they don't even read(or properly distribute) the feedback comments from their website.

The only answer I've ever gotten on this from WSTR or Sinclair(I've used various means to contact them), or anywhere else is no answer(besides a post from a AVSmember at Sinclair some time ago which indicated they are working on HD equipment decisions/purchases for the Sinclair stations which don't have HD yet), I suppose "when the cow jumps over the moon" is as accurate as any other statement concerning possibility, and timing of WB HD(has been available to stations since Fall 2002) from WSTR-DT ...

As has been discussed here before, their "single digits" of HD viewers figure is just ridiculous, unless it is still 1998 or 99. Again, TW Cincy reported in Dec 2002 that at that time they had either 6,000 or 8,000 HD subscribers, and it was also reported around that time that up to that time 15,000 HD capable sets had been sold in the Greater Cincy area. I can't find the article(s) now which reported that(I believe it was part of a NAB "DTV Zone" article concerning All of the Digital stations in Cincy being on the air as of Dec 2002 - When WCET+WSTR came up), but the number of TW HD subscribers I believe was also mentioned in an installment of WCET's Focus program on DTV/HD, which aired around that time, and which is also available for viewing currently off CET digital website.

Where OTA DTV/HD is concerned, hard to say what the numbers are, but a few of us whom have posted here, along with our families take it out of the "single digits", and just Cincy/Dayton thread posters+their families who receive WSTR-DT OTA probably take those numbers into the triple digits. Just guessing, but depending upon how many OTA HD people post on AVS forum(I've seen some From cincy area that have posted, but not on Cincy thread) I'd guess OTA HD/DTV viewship is probably in 4 digit numbers(probably low 4 digits) within 50 miles of Cincinnati, but I suppose where WSTR is concerned their STA and directional antenna pattern which doesn't favor the East or SE probably drops their OTA viewership a bit as compared to say, WKRC-DT or WLWT-DT - Of course, since they don't do WB HD, that would drop their DTV viewership as well. Once tuner mandate goes into effect(starts July 1st with 1/2 of sets 36" or over required to have DTV tuners - and probably most, if not almost all of those sets will also be digital cable "plug&play" ready) Then I'd expect the number of DTV/HD viewers will start rising more quickly than it has been, probably dramatically once we get to 25"+13" sets ....

Still, all small numbers and probably currently, something less than 2% of viewing audience in Cincy DMA is watching HD, but that's a lot more than it was a few years ago .... I don't know when the numbers of "real" HD viewers become important to a station like WSTR, but I do know I would watch LOTR movies in HD via WB(well, if they are OAR anyway), but I have no reason to watch them in SD with commercials since I can watch the DVD's in OAR ... I'd also watch more WB programming that is available in HD, if it was avialable in HD ... Everwood is about the only WB show I watch these days, and not as often as I would if I had a local station airing it in HD ...

FWIW, concerning the News operation and $, here are two quotes relating to this matter as reported by Sinclair in its annual report to SEC:

"We also experienced increases in spending of $2.6 million for the News Central expansions in our Tampa, Flint, Milwaukee, Birmingham, Las Vegas, Cincinnati, and Greensboro markets .... "

"engineering costs of $0.5 million related to news expansions in the fourth quarter ..."

full filing(among other things, they say some stuff about DTV transistioning costs too) available here:

http://biz.yahoo.com/e/040227/sbgi10-k.html


WB Dayton, WBDT-DT(on air with SD only since early 03 - owned by ACME) Did tell me last September that they will broadcast HD at some point, and at that time were looking at equipment, and were deciding on the timeline for HD passthrough.

Columbus, Ohio and Indianapolis, IN areas already have stations doing WB+UPN HD. Sinclair Stations in Columbus provide ABC HD+Fox Widesscreen, Sinclair station in Dayton currently provides NBC HD, but the Sinclair(LMA) Fox affiliate in Dayton isn't doing Fox WS yet, although their CE reported they recently received the necessary equipment to do so, as well as automate switching on the NBC affilate ...

So, not including the Religious stations, If they "ever" get around to doing HD(which I would imagine will happen, someday) WSTR may end up be the last station with HD within 100 miles of Cincinnati .... Its already the only Cincy/NKY station out of 7 without HD(or Fox WS in WXIX-DT's case) ..... pretty sad IMHO ...

I'd be surprised if the number of Greater Cincy HD customers hasn't at least doubled since late 2002. The number of people at my job with HD has tripled since then.

Michael..
It isn't the actual numbers, it's the perceived numbers. They aren't hearing from anyone. Nobody in their own inner circles has HD. Nobody at the station has seen it. They don't run ads for it. Therefore: it does not exist in their reality. The look on the WSTR staffer's face when he met - not one - but FIVE HD owners in our building was astounding. Until that day, he had only met ONE HD owner. I would imagine that - to this day - he's only met SIX, total. I would hazard a guess Jeff and I are the only ones on the Cincinnati board who have contacted anyone at WSTR directly. Until a significant number of people are bothering them, HD will be perceived as a "fad."

Doc

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nitewatchman
[B]I would suspect that they aren't very interested in HD, I think some of the below may illustrate this a bit. I suppose it wouldn't hurt if as many HD viewers as possible contact them and ask for HD, although we've tried that before, and evidently they don't even read(or properly distribute) the feedback comments from their website.

The only answer I've ever gotten on this from WSTR or Sinclair(I've used various means to contact them), or anywhere else is no answer(besides a post from a AVSmember at Sinclair some time ago which indicated they are working on HD equipment decisions/purchases for the Sinclair stations which don't have HD yet), I suppose "when the cow jumps over the moon" is as accurate as any other statement concerning possibility, and timing of WB HD(has been available to stations since Fall 2002) from WSTR-DT ...

I have emailed them several times to inquire about the status of WB-HD and have never had a reply. If you look over at the Lexington KY forum,the Sinclair Fox affiliate WDKY CH 56 is in the process of moving to a new tower in order to improve its signal in the area. Sinclair seems to be upgrading its stations to HD but they are very slow in doing so. I'm hoping by the start of the fall TV season we will see WSTR-DT in full High Definition.

Originally posted by microbob
...I have emailed them several times to inquire about the status of WB-HD ...As I said WAY back in the thread (or one of the archived ones, I don't recall), e-mails don't count. According to the staffer I spoke with, NOBODY has contacted the General Manager regarding HD and only two people have contacted the Promotions Manager. TWO. That's all they've heard from. The fill-out-the-form e-mail on their web page is read by NObody. That's from the horse's mouth, folks. You have to call the GM or snail mail him. I already know who the "two" are. Sorry, but they have no indication we're out here.

Doc

Another thing that might help, hopefully it shouldn't be too much longer until Neilsen starts metering DTV/HD viewers .... Don't let that stop anyone from contacting the stations though ...

I looking to get a OTA antenna Analog-SD now and moving to Digital once the sets get cheaper.

The only channel we watch is WCET anyway :)

I'm in Hyde Park and I checked out antennaweb.org They had most all of the local stations from 250 - 261 deg. and recommended a medium directional antenna (red). Most of the local towers are about 4-7 miles away.

This points out the front of our house and an outdoor antenna on the front of th house would not go over very well. Thus I'm leaning towards an antenna in my attic. (I have a small attic).

I called a local Winegard antenna rep. and he thought a omni-directional antenna like the winegard MS2000 amplified antenna would work well.

Once I told him about antenna web's finding we said maybe the winegard 7078.

Lastly on the winegard web site they are making a big deal about the SS-1000 antenna due this fall and won awards at the last CES.

Wondering if anyone has tried a similar set up in a similar area would have any suggestions?

Thanks for everyone's help! Great forum!

Wesg,

Well, I can't imagine why putting the SS-1000 ("squareshooter) outside wouldn't "go over" well ... you probably wouldn't have to mount the antenna on the front of your house in order to get good reception, as long as you can aim it towards the towers without having nearby obstruction in direction towards the towers .... There is a pic of it here(some nice pics of it on the spec sheet as well) :

http://www.winegard.com/offair/squareshooter.htm

Of course, I don't know how well it works either, but it would probably work better than any antenna mounted indoors - Hard to say though - From the way it looks, it probably works best on UHF, and it probably doesn't have any, or much "gain" over a reference dipole(rabbit ears -- Might not even be that good) on VHF(probably especially won't work too well on VHF channels 2-6) and of course, we have analog stations, as well as WCPO-DT(digital) in Cincinnati on VHF Channel 10 - The rest of the Cincy digitals are on UHF -- Some digital stations currently on UHF will also probably move to their VHF analog assingment after analog shut off ... As close as you are though, it might work well enough for you on VHF, but the analog quality might not be so great on VHF ...

There is also a thread with loads of great info on the SS-1000 here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=353174&pagenumber=1

A Winegaurd HD7078, or an antenna such as a RS-VU-75 or VU-90 on the roof(or perhaps mounted to the side of your house/etc) would certianly be a much better choice, and would probably alleviate the need for much, if any "experimentation" given proper antenna mounting(free of nearby obstructions) and orientation ... Depending upon any terrain issues, given proper(and different from Cincinnati) antenna aiming, you might even get Dayton Stations with an antenna such as the 7078, or something a little better ... Since the stations are on very close to same heading from your location, using an antenna with good directivity(such as HD7078) should work out very well for you -- Why ask for multipath/ghosting if you don't have to?(putting antenna in attic or indoors will increase multipath problems, but the better the antenna's directivity, even indoors, the better). You really don't need the "61 degree" beamwidth of the SS-1000 for example ....

If it will fit and you can aim it in the right direction, 7078/RS VU90/etc. might work well for you, and would be a good choice for a attic antenna(attics really aren't great places for antennas though), although it still might be especially difficult to get quality analog reception free of ghosting, or a good signal from the Low power stations, such as UPN 25 Cincinnati ...

It's even quite possible "rabbit ears"+a $3.49 folded dipole(Outline Bow-tie they call it at RS) on the settop, or placed near a window that faces the towers might even work well for you from your distance ... The "Silver Sensor", and RS DBT(double bow tie - now called dual HDTV antenna or some such thing) are good, Settop antennas, you can find a lot of info on those on AVSforum via a search of hardware area ... Unless there is a serious terrain issue involved for your location which puts you in a "signal hole", I'd be surprised if you couldn't achieve some sort of sucess, even with the simplest and most inexpensive of indoor antennas ... It might take some experimenting to find a "sweet spot" for the antenna, however ...

Good luck + let us know how it goes ...

Update: Oh yes -- On the sets ... Can you believe I purchased a 16x9 26" HD display at sears(new) a couple of months back for $540 as a 2nd HD display? That's less than a 27" analog set I bought back in 1987 ... Replaced a 25" Old analog TV with it, as well as a 17" PC monitor I was using with a 2nd OTA DTV/HD receiver for HD .... It didn't look so great "out of the box" though, and I had to spend quite a bit of time in the service menu/etc. to get it looking good ...

Thanks Jeff,

The SS-1000 link was full of details. Great resource. It seems to be a consensus that the SqS's low VHF frequency reception are suspect.

I have powered pair of rabbit ears with a circular UHF antenna now and I can get WB crystal clear, WCET is great sometimes, fuzzy most of the time and everything else is mostly there but fuzzy.

I don't watch much in the low VHF band, but as the HD7078 seems cheaper and has a broader range so I might try it and if it does not work maybe try the SS-1000 outside.

In your message you mentioned the HD7078 or "something better" any suggestions?

Note I measure my attic, the opening is 21.5" square. The attic itself is 30" to the peak (bottom of the board) and is 78" from front to back with plenty of length along the length of the house. >>120". Would a HD7078 fit, could I get it through the opening?

Thanks again.

- Wesg

Sounds like you can probably get it to fit, although if it were me, I'd probably put it on the roof for best results ... ..I'd especially call the 7078 a perfect choice for a small, effective outdoor antenna installation for many locations in our area(less than 30 miles or so from towers w/no serious terrain issues - w/rotor, probably work for both Cincy+Dayton stations for quite a few folks)...

Full HD7078 dimensions+specs at below link. Looks like boom length is 64.5", Max height(the UHF reflector - 13.5", Max width 110" - which would be the longest element for Lo-VHF channels - ) Carton dimensions = 6.25"x6.25"x77" - So you could probably carry in the attic and uncollapse it there -- don't snap the longest elements into place until you get the antenna properly "mounted" in "horizontal" posisiton and "generally" aimed towards the Cincinnati Broadcast towers, then snap the longest elements in place+make further adjustments to optimize reception -- If you need to bend the longer elements a little it will probably be OK, as long as antenna is staying in the attic(properly mounted+installed outdoor antennas look just fine, bent up antennas are ugly ;-) :

http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/hd7078p.pdf

For similarly sized VHF/UHF combo antennas (7078 is a small/Meduim sized VHF/UHF combo), you're probably not going to find anything that is better than the 7078 - for VHF/UHF combos generally speaking "bigger is better"(bigger= more capture area, higher gain+ higher directivity) . Certianly, 7078 would be a good choice for you, but since you seem to be planning to attenuating the signal greatly as well as increasing multipath(seen as ghosty signals on analog stations) by installing the antenna indoors in the attic, getting the biggest thing you can fit+still be able to aim it+"move it around" in the attic when optimizing for best reception might not be a bad idea ---- The 7078 is probably pretty close to being about as "big as you can go" though as is ... Moving these things around+installing them in an attic can be more difficult than it may seem ... Doc can probably give you more pointers than I on attic installs though .... Anyhow, You can get the full specs(size, antenna patterns/gain chart etc) on the winegaurd antennas from their website --- use the drop down box in RH sidebar for full specs info on each of their antennas (requires acrobat reader) :

http://www.winegard.com/offair/platinum.htm#all

Thanks again Jeff. You are an invaluable resource.

I'd appreciate any points I can get on a "clean" attic install.

Thanks in advance to Doc... if you're out there.

- Wes

Oh, I'm out here <G>. The best pointers I can give you are:

There is a lot of multipath in an attic. Sometimes, a more directional antenna will work better.

Plan on taking your STB and a small TV into the attic with you. Beats running up and down all day.. ALTHOUGH the presence of that TV, STB and YOU will affect the signal somewhat. Get it as high as you can and be prepared to try LOTS of different locations looking for the sweet spots.

Give it time. Each time you change something, let it sit and back away. You can't just sweep around like you can with analog. However, analog pictures are sometimes a good indicator of how well a digital from the same direction is going to come in.

Do it now.. before it gets too hot. ;-)



Doc

You guys are the best! Thanks again for the quick response!

- Wes

I live in between Cincinnati and Dayton... My question is, when I am setting up my channel list on my HD receiver what secondary zipcode should I input in order to get more HD OTA channel options... When I put in my zip (45050) I get the Cincy, Batesville, Logan options... Any help is greatly appreciated... thanks

Curtis

Curtis

45401 thru 45420. Take your pick <g.>

http://whitepages.addresses.com/zip_codes_by_city/19884.html

Doc

Awesome... Thank you!



Originally posted by DrDon
Curtis

45401 thru 45420. Take your pick <g.>

http://whitepages.addresses.com/zip_codes_by_city/19884.html

Doc

WCET-DT note:

For last 3 nights here I've noticed, as we've seen before, it looks like WCET-DT isn't getting into "HD mode" properly again ... Same thing as we've seen before --- Between 7-11pm when HD is scheduled, 48-1+ PBS HD is missing, 48-2+48-3 is OK, 48-4+48-5 are blank, but are there as place holders. Just like when they are in 4 channel SD mode, except the missing programming on 48-4+5.

--------------------------------------------------------
WXIX Note:

It might just be that I've been looking at the right times, but it seems like WXIX-DT has been up all the time the last few weeks .... Am I seeing things<g> ?

Hello everyone, I have found this thread to be helpful and informative. However, I find it frustrating that it is one big thread. To fix this I have started a Cincinnati HDTV forum / website. The website is www CincinnatiHDTV com. I hope you all will come over and check it out and start using it as well. It is just getting started, so there isn't much there now. I don't want to cause a problem by posing this message on this fourm, but have no other way to get a hold of people. Thanks and go Bearcats!!

Thanks, Zekyl, great idea. Here's the clickable URL : http://www.cincinnatihdtv.com

I know the following site has seemed to work well for the Columbus area, I especially like the way they have the forum areas setup for different stations/etc, and that personel from all the local Columbus stations particpate on the forum.

http://www.hdcolumbus.org

One suggestion FWIW -- Something they don't have at hdcolumbus.org --- I think it would be great to have a section(not part of the forum) with detailed info on the local stations, including contact info/hours of operation/when they do HD, info on which area cable providers provide which HD services from the locals as well as nat'l cable HD channels, and the "tech" parameters(antenna patterns/coverage area/etc) of the local stations.

Thanks for the suggestions and clickable link. I am looking for people to help manage the site and if you want to help, please contact me off list via email on CincinnatiHDTV. Thanks again and I will continue to improve the site.

-Mike

I don't know if anyone else is having this problem, but on my MITS with the integrated tuner, whenever I tune in channel 5.01, I receive the channel, but the channel number and description just keep flashing and then it will lock the set up. If anyone can help, it would be great. I have e-mailed engineering, but I haven't received a response yet.

JD,

Yes --- My receiver just locked up on WLWT-DT as well on my Zenith HDV420 receiver around 12 pm -- first tuned to WLWT around 11:40 after first reading your message. Interesting thing is, Audio/Video from WLWT-DT is still just fine here, but after being tuned to a WLWT-DT for a few minutes with EIA-708 "digital" Closed captions turned on, I can't turn the channel(or adjust anything on the receiver for that matter -- Captions also "locked up" and are displaying a few words from several minutes ago as the receiver is locked up!- Watched HD Leno from them Last night, fine then, and was also fine Sunday Night during "American Dreams"...and there were no problems then, but I didn't turn on the captions ....

I have had the Zenith HDV420 receiver lock up and need resetting on WLWT-DT before though, haven't had it lock up anywhere else that I can recall. Seems like everytime this has happened, the 708 captions(which my receiver supports through PSIP I believe) will go missing for a while afterwards until they "fix something".

Update: Ok, after turning off receiver and turning it back on, turned off the 708 captions, and it's not locking up on WLWT-DT now -- which is the usual situation when I've noticed this happen on previous occaisions.

In addition to "rebooting", just some ideas, but you might try rescanning channels, or manually tuning to channel 35 to get to 5-1 to see if that helps. If you have captions(particularly EIA-708 or so called "digital" captions) turned on, you might want to turn those off as well - Just some ideas.

I was under the impression TW cable was carrying the WCVN-DT digitals on the system.. Has this changed?

KET4 was on the HD Tier and the rest on the Digital SD tier..

William

I was under the impression as well. I have not seen it, but on their guide they mailed out, it showed it as well. Also on their website channel guide it shows it.
-Mike - www cincinnatihdtv com

Originally posted by zekyl
I was under the impression as well. I have not seen it, but on their guide they mailed out, it showed it as well. Also on their website channel guide it shows it.
-Mike - http://www.cincinnatihdtv.com

That's strange. Is it possible KET digital/WCVN-DT isn't "getting out" throughout all of TW Cincy's service area?

Here are a couple of posts reporting KET showing up on TW Cincy(the earlier ones from July involved testing, I believe), From Summer 03' cincy Thread :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2411397#post2411397

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2415555#post2415555 - Note: several other KET/TW Cincy related posts/reports on the page this post is on as well

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2529991#post2529991

-----------------------------------

CMF posted all the Channel info for TW Cincy HD Channel line up (as well as the SD services from local stations, including KET) he was getting at the time in this post, from August 2003:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2573469#post2573469

Also, In the last 1/2 of Summer 2003 thread or so, much info was posted concerning station info/etc which might be of some use, although some might be outdated, and most of the pertinent info should be in first few posts of this thread.

--------------------------------

Who1Zep posted The Insight N. KY HD channel Lineup(also including the multicast SD services from the PBS locals) earlier on this thread - last updated at end of Nov. 03:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2788610&highlight=Insight#post2788610

Yea, I checked again last night and the channel numbers are there, but they are definately not HD.

KET runs HD/PBS Widescreen on KET4 per the following schedule:

http://www.ket.org/agency/dtv/programs.htm

The rest of the time, KET4(54-4, 957 TWC I believe) runs Annenburg/CPB channel at 480i SD, with 4~6 SD sevices(they recently added KET5+6 with coverage of KY general assembly during the day) -- On KET4, They switch ATSC formats between 480i for Annenburg/CPB and 720p for PBS HD/Widescreen. Yes, they use 720p for PBS HD instead of 1080i.

WCET-DT doesn't broadcast HD all the time either. OTA, 48-1 is active with PBS HD nightly between 7-11pm, between 8a-7pm they are in 4 channel SD multicast mode+48-1 disappears completely. They are off air between 11pm-8am. Don't know how it works for TWC, but according to their schedule+previous reports, I assume HD is from 7-11pm only on 948.

WPTD-DT, Dayton gives us the most PBS HD, broadcasting PBS HD channel nightly from 6pm-6am, which is good since Tracks ahead comes on in HD at 6:30pm -- Even though, I wish they'd do more TA's in HD ... I think I've seen them all several times by now ... All of WPTD-DT services(including HD) are carried By TW Dayton/Western Ohio.

HD from all 3 local PBS affiliates is currently multicast alongside 2 SD services, I believe this is the reason KET does 720p. The other 2 do 1080i. I believe ThinkTV has plans for multicasting, as well as some sort of HD schedule for WPTO-DT when they come on the air.

Hello
Since I just uninstalled my OTA receiver, and got cable, is CBS doing multicasting with the NCAA tour. games? If so I may have to put OTA receiver back up to the TV.....

Thanks
Dave

WKRC-DT isn't multicasting today. There's a chance they may leave up the HD game from KC tomorrow, as that's what they've done in the past. But, we'll have to wait and see. I've contacted them, but haven't heard back. If you have WKRC-DT on cable, you should get that if that's what they do. They haven't run all of the feeds since CBS started doing some HD games. It's too much trouble to reconfigure the transcoder and - since they have to shut down to do that - it takes Webhopper offline for a while.

If you're where you can get Columbus, THEY are running all 4, I've heard.

update: It appears we're not going to get the HD game on WKRC-DT, this year, as we have in years past. They seem to be sticking with the simulcast of 12.

Doc

Good thing I'm not much of a BB fan. I was planning on watching a couple of the HD games and UC/XU games/etc, but oh well.

According to info on the Columbus HD forum and WBNS website, I think WBNS-DT Columbus is switching between 4 channel multicast+ and HD. WISH-DT Indianapolis I believe is doing Multicast and some HD games as well.

Interesting that Harris is in CINCINNATI and is sponsoring the HD games for CBS ....

Wonder if anybody's called the station. It's possible they planned to follow suit but forgot. I wrote 'em.. never got an answer. Fortunately, DirecTV's March Madness package has all 4 streams AND the HD games.

Doc

I bet WKRC-DT can't multicast the NCAA games because of WebHopper. Is WHIO-DT multicasting? I can't get them at my location to know if they are or not. I may try to turn my antenna towards Lexington to set if I can get WKYT-DT on OTA Ch13. I also thought that only CBS O&Os are doing the NCAA multicast because they have multiple receivers and not all CBS affiliates do.

Microbob...

You're right about WebHopper... They have to shut down to reconfigure the transcoder. Can't do it on the fly like WCET-DT.

But, in years past, their former Chief Engineer put the HD games up on 31 regardless of what was on 12. Guess Gilbert isn't as much into it as Martinelli was. OTOH, now that the DT is on cable, I'd imagine they'd get more complaints if they bailed the Cincinnati game for ANY reason.. even if it's still on 12.

Doc

WHIO(analog+both DT subchannels - HD+SD)is presently showing the same game as on WKRC - U.C. game presently, same game(s) covered at 12:30 up until UC game as well. I'd be surprised though if at some point, WHIO didn't have some different games than WKRC. Last year, while WKRC would carry the HD game regardless of what game was on 12, for the most part, whatever was on WHIO analog was the game on the digital as well(both subchannels), if that game was HD, then you'd get it HD on WHIO-DT's HD subchannel.

Don't know about the multiple receiver issue, but I don't think the multicast has anything to do with CBS/viacom O&O. WBNS Columbus is owned by Gray, WISH in Indy is owned by LIN, not CBS. In 2001, WKRC-DT even did multicast for NCAA tourney.

Doc,

Good point on the U.C. game. I just figured WKRC-DT would have had the 12:30 HD game today, perhaps especially since they switch to CBS HD feed daily at 12:30 for Y&R anyway ....

I wanted to bring up WBQC again, as it has been my impression(especially since this is what they told me!) as I have posted on Cincinnati threads on previous occasions that WBQC could "switch to digital" on their analog assignment at any time. But, we have been having a discussion on another thread concerning LP/translators and class A stations and the DTV transistion, and this does not seem to be the case, so I thought I should bring this up again. Here's the link to discussion involved :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3553124#post3553124

I don't know why I didn't put 2+2 together on this before -- But I do/did know that FCC has just recently started addressing the LP/CA/Translator digital issue, and LP/Class A/Translator stations, so far haven't been given 2nd channel assignments for DTV(there isn't enough room) ...

Also, I know that any station would need a CP(Construction Permit) --- (CP specifies operating parameters for the station such as antenna height/antenna pattern/power/frequency of operation/etc.) granted by FCC before they could build, or operate the DTV(or analog for that matter) station involved. Also, applying for and receiving approval for a CP can be a long process, many issues are involved, including co-channel/adjacent channel interference issues, and If I remember right(we are pretty close to edge of border zone I think), even Cincinnati Towers are in the Canadian border Zone and because of possible interference issues CP's for our area require approval from Canadian version of FCC.

So, I suppose I will have to keep my eye on the FCC procedings/documents concerning LP's/CA/Translators and DTV!

Sorry all, Cincinnatihdtv.com was off-line for a bit today due to a power failure, it's back. I guess I need to invest in a UPS for it. :)

Does anyone participating in this thread own a LG LST-3100A HD receiver? I was wondering if it is possible to receive Insight cable's analog/digital/HDTV channels with the QAM abilities of this STB. Please post specific channels if possible.

whoZep..

You might also check the Louisville thread. I would imagine Insight is using the same scheme, there. Matter of fact, they run about 6 months ahead of us on stuff.

All..

Is it just me or has the PQ on WXIX-DT (during Fox Widescreen filmed material) improved tenfold? Have to admit, I was rarely up late enough to see much of it, before, but even the stuff I tape in w/s looks far superb to the stuff I taped 3 months ago. Widescreen live and upconverted stuff looks the same, so I'm wondering if it's something on Fox's end. We know WXIX doesn't have the new splicing gear because they still miss switches..

Doc

Originally posted by DrDon

All..

Is it just me or has the PQ on WXIX-DT (during Fox Widescreen filmed material) improved tenfold? Have to admit, I was rarely up late enough to see much of it, before, but even the stuff I tape in w/s looks far superb to the stuff I taped 3 months ago. Widescreen live and upconverted stuff looks the same, so I'm wondering if it's something on Fox's end. We know WXIX doesn't have the new splicing gear because they still miss switches..

Doc


I've noticed an improvement in picture quality as well the last few days or so. The jitter seems to be gone or ruduced. Fox is gearing up for full HDTV broadcasts so they may improved things at the network.I wonder when WXIX will switch from 480p to 780p?


Now if we could convince WSTR-DT to broadcast the WB HDTV prime schedule we would be in HDTV Heaven:p

Originally posted by microbob
I wonder when WXIX will switch from 480p to 780p? Actually, they're still transmitting in 1080i, upconverting eveything. I'm worried about the switch. I'm not familiar with the gear they have. If they have to buy a new transcoder, then you can bet they won't switch until August, if then. If their transcoder can be reprogrammed, they'll do it as soon as the new splicer arrives. At least I hope so.

As for WSTR-DT.. I assume you're writing as many letters as the rest of us...?

You know, I guess I should look into a HDTV OTA Antenna. I live in a condo on the lower level, and not sure what all I could pickup from there and what the best antenna would be. I have TWC for Cable HDTV, but it sounds as if WXIX and WSTR are doing OTA only for now. I wonder when TWC will get their HDTV feeds?

Probably when they start doing HDTV. With WXIX, that might be as early as this fall. With WSTR... who knows? No signs they're even going to try. Lot of money for only 2 hours a day.

Originally posted by zekyl
You know, I guess I should look into a HDTV OTA Antenna. I live in a condo on the lower level, and not sure what all I could pickup from there and what the best antenna would be.You might try the Zenith Silver Sensor (ZHDTV1) for an indoor solution, but avoid Terk. If you can go outside, Channelmaster and Winegard have good reputations. Lots of good info in other AVS Forum sections.

Heck, you might start with any old rabbit ears you might have lying around. I'm probably farther out than you and I can get some of them with a UHF loop antenna I've had in an old TV box for years. Remember that WCPO-DT is on VHF (ch 10).

Has anyone heard anything recently about the status of WPTO-DT? Spring is finally here and I'm looking forward to them going on the air, hopefully before Summer.

Jeff...

Too funny. Looks like I need more than X1 reading glasses when running AVS on my laptop, huh?

deleted my post.

Doc

Doc,

LOL. too many W's P's and O's. I messed up too, meant to go back and edit my last post but wasn't paying much attention+hit the delete checkbox/button ... Luckily, the below was in clipboard, however ...

Clarke,

Haven't heard anything new here. It still says Early spring on air date on ThinkTV's website for WPTO-DT. However, I did notice that FCC recently granted their latest CP extension request(their 2nd CP extension). Although Their first extension should have ran out in Nov 03, FCC didn't grant the 2nd extension until early Feb 04, and according to info on FCC site, the 2nd extension doesn't expire now until 8/04. Hopefully, we'll still see them on air soon, however. They are the last station in our area with a DTV channel allocation/CP which hasn't yet made it to air. Here's the expiration info/etc. on WPTO-DT's latest CP extension.

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_det.pl?Application_id=682201

Links to all of WPTO/DT apps and info(The apps/exibits attached as sent to FCC by the station are available for the WPTO-DT CP/CP Mod+extensions via the "application" links -- Acrobat reader is required to view the exhibits/etc)

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_list.pl?Facility_id=25065

WCPO-DT UPDATE NEW TARGET DATE IS MID OF MAY. THIS IS IF GOOD WEATHER DAYS FOR TOWER WORK.

Originally posted by dtv insider
IF GOOD WEATHER DAYS FOR TOWER WORK. In other words, first of July ;)

Thanks for the update dtv insider.

Also, I think you meant WPTO-DT :)

I'll definately have to get the OTA hookup to check out the new offerings this summer.

What was up with 12-1 and the HD broadcast of today's NCAA Regional Finals? The First game was in HD, but geeze - everytime they broke to slow motion the picture got "fuzzy" - soft and lots of noise artifacts. I was chalking this up to back HD at the front end, until watching the second game - no HD and the same artifacts.

I am glad that next weekend I'll be in NC to watch the thing on closed circuit with the Cameron Crazies. LOL.

Dave

Dave

You can thank WebHopper. With only 15MB/s for HD, that happens no matter what live HD they're showing. You don't see it during filmed dramas because 3:2 pulldown doens't eat up so much bandwidth.

Doc

Maybe Clear Channel will decide there's not enough money to be made in the high speed internet business and drop Web Hopper. I know alot of people can't get any type of broadband though. That may change since Cinergy announced BPL a few weeks ago. I'd love to have CBS in full 18MB/s High Definition.

The price point for Cinergy's service and cellular internet services keep WH from being as profitable as it probably could be. Then, there's the issue of the phone line for upstream. But the nail for WH will probably be picture quality. Right now, TV stations will spend small fortunes if it'll improve their analog signal just a smidgen. Gotta look as good as the next guy. Once the digital penetration reaches a certain point, that'll become an issue with ATSC as well. That's when we'll see WH move off to WKOI or some digital station that has no need for HD.

Doc

Of course, we all know Clear Channel would never trade program quality for an extra buck. :p Especially not with their radio stations. ;)

Program quality, no. Technical quality, yes. CC, Infinity and the rest will dole out a fortune to make sure their audio quality equals the competition. There's not an engineering office in this town that isn't littered with audio processing gear that's barely 4 or 5 years old.

On the other hand, half of the studios are operating with consoles long since discontinued. Go figure.

Probably because it's such a major pain to change out a console, and it's easy to replace the parts inside them (caps, chips, pots, etc.) at a low cost (as long as you buy them from a parts supply house and not the console manufacturer...)

Anyway, back on topic, I watched the first half of the HD game toggling between WHIO and WKRC since I didn't feel like leaving to turn the antenna while the game was going on. Definitely noticeable macroblocking, the worst of which did show up on the visual effects that they use wipe to replays and back.

I switched over to WBNS for the second half and only noticed slight blocking on the wipe to replays. They send full bandwidth HD plus DD 5.1 sound.

Does anyone here subscribe to Adelphia's HDTV service out of Amelia? I live up in Columbus, going to Ohio State, but my parents live in Bethel and are interested in getting the HD service without having to go the satellite route. If anyone has it, how much is it a month and is the picture quality any good? Also, when are they planning on adding non-locals like Discovery, ESPN, InHD, HDnet, etc.? Thanks.

FYI, the following is an excerpt from the WCPO-DT newsletter for those of you that don't subscribe:

Good news! We will be broadcasting in 5.1 audio very soon! Upon
arrival to our new studio location at 1720 Gilbert, we will be in the
process of switching from stereo surround to 5.1. I'm just glad that I
finally have some news for you concerning this!

Regards,

Greg Ruschman, Jr.
wcpo.com Web Content Editor


I know some of you have been waiting for this, although he doesn't specify a date other than "very soon".

Paul

Great news! I hope that others will follow their lead.

For those who have TWC, you can call up TWC and ask the get a free two month trial of the HD Tier. I received a flyer in the mail and called up and had no problems getting this deal. You'll of course need to have one of the HD boxes.

Andre

Slightly off-topic, but I haven't found anywhere to really ask about Cinci related services.

Background : Had Dish for a while, swapped to D* due to (at the time) Dish's requirement to have multiple dishes for locals and HDTV, and I have just moved. While I do have D* hardware (2 RCA cheapies and a Samsung TS160), I'm open to swapping to a new provider especially if it provides a way to archive HD content. I don't really like TWC (especially in the older neighborhoods where the cable comes in above ground), but I'd probably consider it if the STBs have decent firewire support.

Any recommendations? If this is too off-topic, PMs would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Mark

Hello Mark--

The Directv HD-Tivo is shipping this week. I do not believe the unit supports firewire.

Have any Cincy TWC customers requested a firewire box yet?

For those who are interested and haven't seen the schedule at ( http://www.cincinnatihdtv.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8 )

These are the Upcoming HD-One Movies on WKRC-DT :

Star Trek: The Motion Picture - April - 4/10 8pm
Star Trek II-The Wrath of Khan - May - 5/8 8pm
Star Trek III-The Search for Spock - June - 6/12 8pm
Raider of the Lost Ark - July - 7/10 - 8pm
Star Trek IV-The Voyage Home - August - 8/14 - 8pm
Star Trek V-Final Frontier - September - 9/11 8pm
Star Trek VI-The Undiscovered Country - October
The Godfather - November
The Godfather, Part II - November
Major League - December

------------------------------

Thanks to WHWeasel for getting+posting the schedule --- Note -- So far, all the HDone movies shown on WKRC-DT the last couple of years have been in OAR.