I believe the Antenna I have I did not go out to count the elements. If needed I will do it tomorrow. I got it from Radio Shack it is about 8 or 9 years old. It is either a VU-120XR 37 Element 120 Mile VHF and 70-80 Mile UHF Range but I think it is an older VU-190XR (The Newer ones range is upto 190 miles VHF and 100 Miles UHF 57 Elements) But if memory serves me right I thought the Mileage was more like 120 Mile VHF and 70-80 Mile like the VU120XR Mileage listed above there might be Improvements over the Years since I purchased the Antenna to gain Better Mileage now. the bosster I am using is the 15-2507 which is the same age as the Antenna if the db is the same as the one listed now (On my old High Gain Amp) {What I call a Booster} it should be 30db. IF I get the Antenna and tower down I might go with the VU-190XR and add another UHF Antenna like an XG 91 Long Range UHF antenna from Antennas direct or a DB 8 Or maybe combine the Connections or will this be overkill? On the Antenna and loose signal???

IF I get the Antenna and tower down I might go with the VU-190XR and add another UHF Antenna like an XG 91 Long Range UHF antenna from Antennas direct or a DB 8 Or maybe combine the Connections or will this be overkill? On the Antenna and loose signal???

No, probably wouldn't be overkill. In your situation, especially for DTV every little extra db of SNR you can get is probably only going to help. At your distance, just don't necessarily count on anything being "enough" to allow for perfect, 24/7 dropout free reception of the Cincinnati digitals from 90 miles.

In your situation I'd probably think about using the best of seperate broadband VHF antennas(such as Delhi-Jerrold VIP-307SR), and UHF antenna such as XG91, CM4228/DB8/etc. For a VHF/UHF combo antenna, CM3671 crossfire would probably be a better choice for you than any of the RS models. On the VHF side, Even a smaller broadband VHF antennas such as Winegard PR5030 would likely perform better than VHF section on VU190. If you are not too interested in Low VHF analog reception, or receiving WDKY-DT 4, Lexington(Fox HD) KY, instead of a broadband(ch 2-13) VHF antenna, you might want to think about a hi-VHF only(ch 7-13) antenna such as Winegard YA-1713 (see near bottom of page here : http://www.winegard.com/offair/prostar1000vhffmyagi.htm#ya

As for combining seperate VHF/UHF antennas, There are a number of high quality, High gain low noise preamps("boosters") such as CM7777 which have seperate VHF/UHF inputs allowing you to hook up seperate VHF/UHF antennas to it. Otherwise, VHF/UHF joiner -- CM part #0549 is very low loss(about .5db If recall correctly), and provides high isolation between VHF/UHF.

Concerning your preamp, Radio shack's line are generally said to be relatively high noise and easily overloaded. While the latter shouldn't be a concern for you the NF(noise figure) is. I'd go with the Channel master or Winegard preamps.

Here's a couple of links to places where you can get a hold of this sort of stuff, or find out where to go for a distributor/etc :

www.solidsignal.com
www.winegard.com

http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm

Zcore, I just went through the same thing this past weekend as I upgraded to DirecTV HD and installed my own OTA antenna to pull in the local HDs. For someone who is traditionally an early adopter, I came very late to the HD party.

First you will need an antenna that can pull in HD and a receiver / tuner that can decode the HD signal. I used the HR10-250 which is the HD DVR. For my antenna, I used the Channel Master CM4228. This is actually an outdoor antenna, but I installed it in my attic (works great). I went with this antenna based on reviews of its very strong performance even in an attic install and because I didn't want to see the thing.

Go to antennaweb to figure out where to aim your antenna. For my situation, I can pull in all the Cincy local HD's without having to rotate they antenna and all have signal strengths of 90+.

Connect the cable from your antenna to ANT in connector on your HD receiver. Go into the setup, go to setting, go to satellite & off-air antenna, and go to check off-air antenna signal strength. You will need to tell the menu which frequencies to check. Antennaweb has the information. From example WCPO-DT is 10 and WXIX-DT is 29. You really want the signal strength for any channel you wish to receive to be above 80. A signal strength of 70 can work, but I prefer to make adjustments until I can get at least 80-85. Adjust the aim of you antenna until you maximize signal strength on your key channels. I was most concerned about the big 4 and less concerned about PBS and WB.

Once you have the signal strengths where you want them, go back to the satellite & off-air antenna menu. Select Repeat Guided Setup. Selected Satellite and off air antenna. Follow the prompts. You have to do this step, otherwise the receive will not know that you have an off air antenna.

Next go back to the main set-up screen. Go to setting, channels, off-air and select scan for off air channels. Once this is complete, all the off air channels will now be in your guide.

The other way to check the signal strength off your antenna is a signal meter. These normally run about $150 - $250. I personally thought just getting the receiver was a better investment.
Good luck!

Tonight's Presidential speech was an excellent chance to compare the three networks HD feed. I must say, it was the first time I noticed what's been mentioned on this thread before, that WKRC-HD (ch 12) does have a "slight" green tinge or push that is not present on the HD feeds of NBC or ABC. It's not a lot and it's not a big problem but I did notice it in somewhat shady areas such as where the President's jawbone leads to his neck. I thought the NBC and ABC pictures were quite comparable and I could not discern a difference. For the record, I have TWC.

I must say, it was the first time I noticed what's been mentioned on this thread before, that WKRC-HD (ch 12) does have a "slight" green tinge or push that is not present on the HD feeds of NBC or ABC.

To me, the "green tinge" seems to be more noticeable lately (especially on dark scenes). When I mentioned the problem to someone at WKRC a few months ago they suggested that I needed to have my set adjusted. Its strange that people on this forum can see it yet no one at the station sees it as a problem.

To me, the "green tinge" seems to be more noticeable lately (especially on dark scenes). When I mentioned the problem to someone at WKRC a few months ago they suggested that I needed to have my set adjusted. Its strange that people on this forum can see it yet no one at the station sees it as a problem.

No, they just don't get it. If we adjust our sets to fix the green on WCPO, then our sets will be off for all the other HD networks. That's the point. They're the exception, not the rule

I don't know if stations are sending this improper color in order to give them a "unique" look, or so when you adjust the set so the station involved looks good if you switch to a different local station, or to cable channels, or turn your antenna towards Dayton, the other channels/stations won't look as good(and then there is also WCPO analog with it's even greater "green push" during ABC programming - "push" probably isn't really the right word -- More like "greenish" caste, or "tint" to it) --- or if it is because they are not properly monitoring colorimetry, or because the monitors they are using to check this sort of thing are not "currently" properly aligned/calibrated.

In any case, although I usually would not "advocate" such a thing, I think this shows just one of the reasons why I think it might not be such a bad Idea for FCC to set(and enforce) certian technical quality standards for this sort of thing. Another example where this might be benefical might be minimum bitrate requirements for ATSC/MPEG2 based on the ATTC test/recommendations.

Just a FYI, FWIW Color balance/Color decoder is calibrated(It didn't take much, only 1 very "minor" adjustment was needed, really) for ATSC 480i/480p/720p/1080i sources from the internal tuner on one of my sets(Sony KD34XBR960 - direct View CRT) using a internal test pattern generator that is accessable via the set's service menu, and by turning R/G/B guns on individually. For ATSC 720p/1080i, a different color matrix("Colorspace") is used, which the set "switches" to "on the fly" in a sense outside of Service Menu, inside of service menu, you must manually set a certian parameter called "MTRX" to choose the correct Color matrix for 480p, 720p or 1080i when adjusting the Color decoder.

[update: I should also note that with this set, it's possible to check the see if results using the internal test pattern generator "match" other test patterns played from memory stick at 1080i, as well as the AVIA and DVE color tests from DVD at 480i/p via component input - and they do "match" - Also, The schemtics/block diagrams from this sets service manual indicate that the output from the internal ATSC tuner uses component video, and, If I recall correctly from when I was looking at this, I think the signal path from ATSC tuner indicates those video signals go through the same signal processing as what occurse via component inputs on back of set. [end update]

Anyhow, The slight green "tinge" is there on WKRC-DT on that set as well. It isn't there from WHIO-DT, CBS HD Dayton.

A few weeks back, on another set, I caught Color bars up from CBS HD feed on WKRC-DT for a few seconds -- It has a "freeze" function that allows you to freeze the frame(it doesn't effect color). I managed to hit the "freeze" button quickly enough so I could go into the set's Service menu and turn the R/G/B guns on indivdually(one at a time) to check the color bars. I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure what I saw "color balance wise" was different than what I've seen with this with other stations, especially with the Green gun+balancing Green and Yellow, Green and Blue/etc. I think it should have been the same. With 2 other stations, I did get "different" results from the color bars up on WKRC-DT, but the exact same results from those two other stations, but they are sending 480i.

The reasons I'm not postive about it on this "other" set -- and is also mostly why I asked some questions related to this earlier in thread which noone responded to -- however is that :

#1). Color bars from the other stations I've calibrated this decoder with were from 480i subchannels, but with the STB(Zenith HDV420) upconverting /outputting 1080i to my set. So, there may be differences with color involving the STB+upconversion(and it seems like this may be the case in comparision to sending 480i out via S-Video or composite), and, with this set, I'm also not sure how the difference in 480i(upconverted to 1080i by STB) vs. 1080i color matrices is handled by either the STB or the display in this case. You'd think the STB would handle it properly, but who knows. From what I've been able to discover, unlike the Sony, it seems this particular display(Toshiba 34HF84) only has a "static" adjustment available(available in Service menu as well) to choose the color matrix to use for each scan rate.

#2).I didn't quite get to do a complete "proper" calibration of color decoder with those Color bars up off CBS HD feed from WKRC-DT, as I ended up having to do some other things, and had forgotten there was a time limit(something like 45 minutes) on long the "freeze" function worked until it automatically "unfroze" itself. I did manage to write down a few of the settings it took when balancing with "blue" gun and "green" gun only.

Hopefully, I'll get a chance to check color bars up on one of the stations/subchannels sending 1080i or 720p someday, especially coming from the Network HD feed would be nice. But, unfortunetly that doesn't happen very often, at least when I happen to have the TV on and tuned to the right channel. I've seen them up from CBS HD feed before from WHIO-DT, but it's been a while.

Something certianly seems odd about this, as Using settings for the color decoder for proper color balance using either the Color bars up on WKRC-DT OR the other stations at 480i(upconverted to 1080i) didn't seem to produce the correct color decoding for this set- just by eyeballing programming material/etc and comparing it to the other set I know is properly calibrated color decoding. So, I've ended up using the necessary Tint/Color saturation offsets I found with those color bars for "blue" gun(which matched for all the stations) BUT am just using the set's default values for the other various color decoder adjustments available in Service menu, and in comparison to the Sony(which I know has properly calibrated color) and program material from 720p/1080i stations, the default settings seem to be either right on the money, or very close(may still need to reduce a color decoder setting for Red~Yellow balance a "notch"). 480i upconverted to 1080i by the STB doesn't quite seem as "correct". One thing I did find out at least was which setting for sure on the set "controls" which color space/matrix is used, and also detirmed that for 720p/1080i the set defaults for this control was set correctly.

i saw it for the first time last night on wkrc.. it was definatley not there on whio

jim

Tonight's Presidential speech was an excellent chance to compare the three networks HD feed. I must say, it was the first time I noticed what's been mentioned on this thread before, that WKRC-HD (ch 12) does have a "slight" green tinge or push that is not present on the HD feeds of NBC or ABC.

I did the same channel comparisons during the State of the Union speech. NBC HD and ABC HD looked "normal" and CBS HD looked dingy. If not for the fact that Nitewatchman has mentioned the green push before, I might never have realized the the dingy look on channel 12 HD was the result of a greenish tint.

CincyKev

did we ever get an answer from wcpo as to what they did to fix the jaggies?? Any word on the new encoder?

did we ever get an answer from wcpo as to what they did to fix the jaggies?? Any word on the new encoder?

As I kind of expected, I have not received a response. I have just sent a new response to see if he'll share information on the progress of their new encoder project.

I recently recieved this reply from Joe Martinelli, Director of Engineering for WCPO


We hope to have a new HDTV Encoder installed before the Superbowl. It is on its way to Wisconsin at this moment.
I have run into a hitch with the 5.1 experiment at this time. Our present encoder is having a hard time with lip sync on ABCs new digital signal. Right now I am focusing on the Encoder and video for the Superbowl. If I can get 5.1 to come along for the ride, okay, if not, I don't want to chance a lip sync problem in the Superbowl to try and get 5.1 running. I will fix it later. We will have to see what happens.
We have recently changed some settings in this encoder. See if the jaggies are gone this weekend.


My personal feeling is "who cares" about lip sync for the superbowl. Most of the time you don't see the announcers, and a 250ms delay in the gameplay audio would hardly be noticable. Certainly worth it for 5.1, IMO.

mailinator.. when did you recieve the reply - the jaggies have been gone for a while. I kind of agree, a slight delay for the game would be no big deal.. except for the commercials..

jim

I just received a reply and they are still working on 5.1. I did not receive any more detail and I will not be asking for any more. I doubt we will be getting it for the Super Bowl, but maybe since I did not receive any more detail it is still possible.

To me, the "green tinge" seems to be more noticeable lately (especially on dark scenes). When I mentioned the problem to someone at WKRC a few months ago they suggested that I needed to have my set adjusted. Its strange that people on this forum can see it yet no one at the station sees it as a problem.


The people at the station are aware of the issue. We are looking into it.
Not sure who you spoke with/too but if it wasn't a engineer then they are just giving general advice.


Weasel

I noticed the wcpodt.com website has been updated. It has video of Joe Martinelli answering some common questions. Can be helpful for those just getting in the game. In the one video, Joe tells them he wants to redo it, but I guess the wrong video got posted.

The people at the station are aware of the issue. We are looking into it.
Not sure who you spoke with/too but if it wasn't a engineer then they are just giving general advice.


Weasel

Thanks for the reply. When I called, the receptionest wouldn't let me speak to an engineer and transfered me to someone in programming who seemed rather clueless about your digital channels. I'm just glad to hear that someone is finally looking into the problem.

By the way, if you can tell us, what are WKRC's plans for 12-2? It seems rather a waste to show the almost unwatchable (bandwidth limited ?) SD programs on 12-2. As I have said before the weather RADAR was really something good to see on that channel even though WLWT and WCPO have weather services on their -2 channels.

Thanks for the info/update Weasel. If it helps any, I've been seeing the green tint for at least 2~3 years(I can't say for sure if it has been there ALL during that time), it might have been there all along.

I first noticed it(about 2~3 years ago - trying to remember when I added the STB and S-VHS deck that lets me do this and achieve "nearly" - but not quite DVD quality recordings) when I had recorded a portion of a (HD) program from WKRC-DT, and a portion of the same program from WHIO-DT. In this case, output as 16x9 NTSC video(just like a "anamorphic" widescreen DVD works), and downconverted to 480i to my STB and output over s-video connections to a S-VHS VCR. BTW, I can then "stretch" that back out using my 16x9 display's "Full" mode for proper Aspect ratio.


I noticed the wcpodt.com website has been updated. It has video of Joe Martinelli answering some common questions. Can be helpful for those just getting in the game.

What a great idea! Way to go WCPO.

I checked some of those videos out, and thought Joe did a great job concerning answering the questions in the videos I checked out. Which isn't necessarily an easy thing to do, in an accurate way without going into a lot of "technical" and other details, but I thought he did a great job of it. Update: Although, I think he should have mentioned something more about the PSIP issues which can and have occured when answering the question about "I used to be able to get your station, but can't now/etc".

I recently got a Toshiba 56mx195 and have been working on getting the QAM tuning working with TWC (and trying to get things working before the SB on Sunday). I thought I'd post my findings here for posterity, and to assist anyone who might be trying to do the same thing.

The initial channel scan on the Tosh only found WLWT-HD. Based on previous thread posts from back in Dec (thanks nightowl2k2, cokebear, nitewatchman), I was looking for WCPO-HD at 107-2, but that kept redirecting to channel 0.

After some trial and error, it turned out that the signal strength was low. It was good enough to tune 5-1 and 19-1 (with some pixelization and dropouts), but wouldn't tune anything up around 100. So, I adjusted by coax distribution scheme so that the feed to the Tosh was upstream from some of my splits and that did the trick. With a stronger feed I was able to get WCPO and WKRC. Interestingly, the redirecting I saw before went away as well.

So here's where I'm finding the big 4 HD locals on my Tosh QAM tuner with TWC:
WLWT (NBC) 5-1
WXIX (FOX) 19-1
WKRC (CBS) 107-1
WCPO (ABC) 107-2

Thanks again to the thread. (Now if I can just get the TVGOS working I'll be in fat city.)

--Luke

Luke,

When I initially set up my QAM tuner I had the same problem (low signal). I had to replace a 20 year old RF amp (rated to 550 MHz) with a new one (same gain, rated to 900 MHz). The cable run from the pole to where my HDTV is located is over a 100 feet and without an amp the analog channels look very snowy on all TVs and the digital channels break up a lot.

As for the TVGOS, just give it some time to fully populate. The guide data comes from WCET, channel 8 on your cable system. WCET goes off the air at 1 AM three nights a week and that has been causing some people problems with the guide. Your TV (or STB for those that have them) MUST be off to get the data and many people that are leaving their sets on a lot (only turning them off during the night) notice a lot of missing guide data.

So here's where I'm finding the big 4 HD locals on my Tosh QAM tuner with TWC:
WLWT (NBC) 5-1
WXIX (FOX) 19-1
WKRC (CBS) 107-1
WCPO (ABC) 107-2

Unless something changed recently 107-1 and 107-2 should be remapping to 12-1 and 9-1 respectively.

Luke,

When I initially set up my QAM tuner I had the same problem (low signal). I had to replace a 20 year old RF amp (rated to 550 MHz) with a new one (same gain, rated to 900 MHz). The cable run from the pole to where my HDTV is located is over a 100 feet and without an amp the analog channels look very snowy on all TVs and the digital channels break up a lot.

As for the TVGOS, just give it some time to fully populate. The guide data comes from WCET, channel 8 on your cable system. WCET goes off the air at 1 AM three nights a week and that has been causing some people problems with the guide. Your TV (or STB for those that have them) MUST be off to get the data and many people that are leaving their sets on a lot (only turning them off during the night) notice a lot of missing guide data.

Bill, thanks for the info. I had some issues getting the right cable lineup in the TVGOS, and every time I change it I have to wait a day to see what populates. I'm sure it'll work eventually, it's just slow progress since you have to leave it off for a day and then see what you get.

Unless something changed recently 107-1 and 107-2 should be remapping to 12-1 and 9-1 respectively.

Terry,

Yeah, I was expecting those to remap, based on what I had read in this thread. 5-1 and 19-1 do remap from 35-1 and whatever 19's other number is (maybe 85-1??). But they aren't remapping on my setup for some reason. That's why I thought I would post what I found. YMMV.

Concerning WKRC-DT's "green tinge" -- just In case it helps Weasel any -- It's difficult to be certian as it is AWFULLY difficult to tell for sure, but :

With "color" turned off on my set -- just looking at just "black and white"/Greyscale(given apporx 6500K color temp and an otherwise "linear" greyscale elsewhere) -- It looks like(again awfully hard to say), there may be a bit of "green" contamination detectable with WKRC-DT that isn't there from other sources/stations/etc. Again, it's hard to say, as it is so slight and even more difficult to detect than with "color" turned on.

So, perhaps whatever is going on involves the luminance(Y) portion of the video signal. Again, hard to say and detirmine "for sure", as if any, the difference when looking at "B&W" is SO slight it's hard to say -- but Just a thought, FWIW.

LukeH7,

Keep in mind WLWT-DT only transmits on Channel 35(596~602MHZ) OTA. It's "remapping" from some other QAM (RF) channel which corresponds to a different frequency range(and probably only 3MHZ wide instead of 6MHZ wide) on TW's system -- such as QAM channel 107/Slot 1 for WKRC-DT(transmits OTA on UHF channel 31), 107/"slot 2" for WCPO-DT(transmits OTA on VHF channel 10).

As per our earlier discussions on this in this thread, I think it's difficult to figure out, or speculate on the issues involved concerning why you(and some other folks) are not getting the PSIP virtual channel remapping for some stations, and yet it is working for others.

Without more relevant info to go on, what I'd probably be wondering about most if I were trying to "troubleshoot" the problem would be --- Is it an issue with certian models of receivers not being up to "specs" when it comes to handling certian PSIP or MPEG2 program info involving the cableco distribution, and any changes they might have had to make for distribution on their system, or is it because of something that is going on with that at the cableco or station.

I especially wonder if it might be an issue concerning MPEG2 PID(packet identifier), if TW is needing to change those for distribution of the signal on their system. I do know back early last year when many stations were changing their PID's to comply with a new FCC rule which required PID's for all program streams to be at or above an address of Hex30, if everything didn't match "just right" it caused some OTA receivers to experience PSIP related issues.

With OTA it is easier, as although different receiver models do handle PSIP "differently" and that has certianly caused "problems" for both us and the stations at times -- nevertheless, all experience+reports I have ran into so far seem to suggest they(OTA ATSC receivers) all will "work" perfectly with PSIP+channnel remapping as long as the station is sending 100% properly configured PSIP(and MPEG2 program info) tables.

Correction/update to a previous post, as well as some add'l thoughts --

Although I had orignally posted about this "correctly" a few months ago, I believe in my last post I posted some "bass ackwards" info on this ... Here's the "correct" info again, with an update :

Several months ago(10/4/05), FCC released a public notice announcing at that time they would begin accepting applications from LPTV+LP translator stations to Flash cut to digital on their current channel assignment. If I recall correctly I believe Class A(which are also LP stations) stations have had the "OK" to do this for some time, although the rules+procedures they would have needed to follow to do so were perhaps not completely clear until quite recently. Anyhow, Here is that notice in PDF format :

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-05-2546A1.pdf

In the notice above, the commission stated that in the "near future" they would also be announcing a filing window for LPTV/LP translator/Class A stations to seek(if they want to) a 2nd, digital companion channel. sure enough, they released a Public Notice about this on 1/26/06, stating that the filing window will be open for this between 5/1/06 and 5/12/06. This public notice is available here in PDF format :

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-06-123A1.pdf


So, I guess we'll see in May if WBQC-CA or any other LP stations in the area are interested in seeking a 2nd, digital companion channel broadcasting both analog+digital stations until the completion of DTV transistion for LP stations ...

Note that from the way I understand it anyway, I don't believe the * - 2/17/09 hard analog shut off date for full service stations applies to Low Power/Class A stations, although I think they will need to be off channel 52-69, or will need to work out "agreements" in cases when they would cause interference to the "new" spectrum users. Note that in the Cincinnati Dayton area, analog/LP stations which were on 20+61 have recently moved(but are still analog of curse) to in core channels 20+36, and WWRD-LP 55 Dayton has a construction permit from FCC to move to 32.

In other words it looks likely that there will be LP analog stations on air after analog shut off, and those analog OTA viewers who haven't made the transistion by late feb 2009 in some cases may have something other than "snow" showing up on their TV. So, it might still make sense for some LP stations to seek a 2nd, digital companion channel since their analog station might still be on air and serving some viewers after 2009. Also, it would seem to offer stations which can get a 2nd companion channel for digital more flexibility. Still, I'm guessing(just guessing) most LP stations will be flash cutting to digital(if they manage to stay on the air after their analog must shut off). Here is a good article from TVtechnology last week that goes into more details :

Will LPTV be left out in the Cold? (http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/news/2006.01.25-n_will.shtml)

Another thing to perhaps consider here is how long the process will take, from the time the statition files the application for digital companion channel or flash cut, to the time the digital station makes it on the air(in the case of companion channel, if there is one available in the area). Although it is hard to say, I would expect that time frame to generally be in the range of 1 to 3 years, although it could happen much faster. Contruction permits issued from FCC for LP stations are I believe 3 years before they expire. When WBQC "moved" from 25 to 38, it was near the very end of that 3 years when it actually happened .... Who knows, however. If they can find a way to make $ with it(such as something along the lines of USDTV/etc), it could happen a lot faster. And, for instance, since UPN HD is now out of the "equation" for WBQC, who knows what they are looking at for their future "digital" station.

* - I understand from the latest news on Friday, the legislation(the analog shut off/converter subsidies are part of "larger" legislation involving Budget Reconiliation(S.1932 specifically)) which as of mid-last week has passed in House+Senate(but just barely) now only needs the signature of the Prez. I believe before the Holidays, President Bush seemed to indicate he would sign the thing -- that was before some modifications, and who knows -- but I expect he will, in which case it looks like 2/17/09 analog shut off date(for full service stations) appears to almost be a done deal. Right after the Superbowl(probably), but before March Madness .....

I would call TW but they probably would have no idea on a question like this. I am interested in buying an HDMI switching receiver like the Denon 4306. I have heard the HD boxes such as the 8300 may or not work with an HDMI switching device, such as a receiver, unless they have a newer firmware version. Anybody in the Cinicnnati area that has Time Warner have any luck in this scenario in being able to use a receiver to switch HDMI and pass along the high def signal put out by the TW box through the receiver and then eventually out to the tv (ie is TW on a recent enough firmware version)?

Based on information in another thread on AVS, I read that TWC has a national deal to carry Universal HD. UHD is going to supplement NBC's Olympics coverage with even more HD stuff.

I looked at the TWCinci web site and no mention. I've looked at the EPG on the 8300 and no channel was listed.

Has anyone see or heard anything about Cincy TWC carrying UHD?

In Dayton TWC has added Universal HD to channel 977 (700's are usually HD, so it may only be here for the Olympics). You may want to call up your local office and see if they have information.

In Dayton TWC has added Universal HD to channel 977 (700's are usually HD, so it may only be here for the Olympics). You may want to call up your local office and see if they have information.

It's also now on 977 in Cinci but only in diagnostic mode. There is programming on but no guide info. Not sure if it's available via QAM.

I posted this in the 8300 hardware forum but was hoping someone on here could help me since I know the software issues with these boxes are regional. If anyone can help me or point me to somewhere I would appreciate it!

I have an SA8300HD, a Samsung DLP TV, and a brand new Onkyo A/V receiver that does HDMI switching. I have TW cable in Cincinnati, OH using passport software.

If I plug my 8300 directly into my TV via HDMI, it works fine. But if I go through my new receiver, I either get nothing or a message telling me that my TV is not HDCP compliant and I should hook it up via component. Obviously that is not the case since I can do a direct connect. It appears from some things I've read in the forums is that people are having issues getting the proper handshake when using an A/V receiver or their boxes simply don't like it for one reason or another.

Oh, one more thing. I know it can't simply be the A/V receiver. I have a Samsung HD941 scaling DVD player and it works fine sending the video through the receiver.

Does anyone have a clue what I can do to make this work? Anyone having success getting an 8300 to work through an A/V receiver?

It's also now on 977 in Cinci but only in diagnostic mode. There is programming on but no guide info. Not sure if it's available via QAM.

Can somebody remind me how to get into diagnosis mode? The methods I have found in other places in the forum don't seem to work. I would like to hear recent success methods of entering diagnosis mode.

Thanks

Hold down "select" and "exit" at the same time (on the front of the box) until you get a "ding" and the front of the box says "diag".

After spending some time on the phone with tw cinci they have confirmed that universal HD will be added for the olympics only and then go away.

I posted this in the 8300 hardware forum but was hoping someone on here could help me since I know the software issues with these boxes are regional. If anyone can help me or point me to somewhere I would appreciate it!

I have an SA8300HD, a Samsung DLP TV, and a brand new Onkyo A/V receiver that does HDMI switching. I have TW cable in Cincinnati, OH using passport software.

If I plug my 8300 directly into my TV via HDMI, it works fine. But if I go through my new receiver, I either get nothing or a message telling me that my TV is not HDCP compliant and I should hook it up via component. Obviously that is not the case since I can do a direct connect. It appears from some things I've read in the forums is that people are having issues getting the proper handshake when using an A/V receiver or their boxes simply don't like it for one reason or another.

Oh, one more thing. I know it can't simply be the A/V receiver. I have a Samsung HD941 scaling DVD player and it works fine sending the video through the receiver.

Does anyone have a clue what I can do to make this work? Anyone having success getting an 8300 to work through an A/V receiver?

See my post a few up from yours. Seems to be a firmware issue. I know people in other cities have gotten HDMI switching to work only after After their local time warner office did a firmware upgrade. Since the 8300 is HDMI 1.0, when it was first released its firmware would not allow a repeater/swtching device to pass on the signal. If I am understanding your situation correctly, it probably means the Cincinnati TW office has not released the newest firmware version and until they do, you will not be able to run the HDMI cable through a receiver. You will have to run it directly to the TV.

If I am understanding your situation correctly, it probably means the Cincinnati TW office has not released the newest firmware version and until they do, you will not be able to run the HDMI cable through a receiver.
Do those of you with SA8300HDs having HDMI switching problems have the audio out option in the extended settings menu? If not you may want to swap your box to get a firmware upgrade. My SA8300HD didn't have that option and the only solution was to swap the box. I don't have a HDMI switch so I can't help you with that aspect.

This is probably off topic slightly, but I'm wondering if any of you can provide some insight:

I had heard that TWC Cincinnati was going to do digital simulcast of their analog tier, but after their first attempt at implementation, they had to roll back to their prior config.

Does anyone have any updates as to the progress of this project?

This is probably off topic slightly, but I'm wondering if any of you can provide some insight:

I had heard that TWC Cincinnati was going to do digital simulcast of their analog tier, but after their first attempt at implementation, they had to roll back to their prior config.

Does anyone have any updates as to the progress of this project?

I don't know the answer to your question but I would like to add that IMO their analog picture has gotten a little worse from where it was a year ago. It was splendid right after they added ESPN-HD. I don't know what they did but it really looked good. It is not quite as good as of Feb 2006.

This is probably off topic slightly, but I'm wondering if any of you can provide some insight:

I had heard that TWC Cincinnati was going to do digital simulcast of their analog tier, but after their first attempt at implementation, they had to roll back to their prior config.

Does anyone have any updates as to the progress of this project?

I think they have completed the digital simulcast but my evidence may be only circumstantial. I have a Channel Master modulator I was using to play shows on my ReplayTV on other TV's of the house. I was trying to use the same coax TW uses. When I was using a channel TW needed for digital channels, those channels went dark until I re-assigned the channel I was using. Finally, it got to the point I had to take the modulator out because there were not enough "open channels".

One of the TW techs was out on a different matter. he gave me a copy of their schedule for moving channels to digital which should have been completed in January. I told him what I was trying to do but was met with a blank stare. He didn't know what or why I was doing that. :o

I'm sure there is a more-precise explanation of what they did but that's my experience with it.

// Scott A

I have a SA8300 DVR HD set box. This morning, it kept rebooting and there was no picture. My wife called TW and they were able to get the picture back but no sound. The TW rep said they were updating the system but no problems were reported. A service man will be here tomorrow.

Anyone with a similar problem?

Any suggestions to try tonight?

RitchieRich:

I have two SA8300 and one of them was going nutz this morning. It booted and rebooted about five times and in between the display on the front of the box was showing apparently random numbers and letters. When I got home tonight, it seemed to be working fine. I am new to TW (9 years with D*) and I thought this might have been a software update.

Same deal here. My 8300HD box is doing very strange things today. My two Pace HD boxes are just fine. So there's something wrong with TW. Right now it's a one hour wait for service so I'm assuming that everyone with the SA box is having problems. I first had no sound and fixed that by going to the extra settings menu and setting the audio to HDMI,something that I don't believe I had done before. I now have audio but I'm having trouble switching some channels.

My 8300HD is running fine. After entering diagnosis mode I have found UHD on 977 and Fox Reality TV on 146. Both channels are in the clear 76-31 for UHD but I don't remember the channel for Fox Reality TV.

I'm not 100% certian about this, so I could be wrong but currently looking at "Raymond" on WKRC-DT and comparing it to analog WKRC, it looks like the Green "tinge" may be gone, now.

Also notice there is currently no decodable video/audio on 12-2 - just a blank screen although the PSIP info/etc. is still being sent. Same thing is happening currently for WHIO-DT Dayton and 7.2, not that that "means" anything, necessarily ...

I'm not 100% certian about this, so I could be wrong but currently looking at "Raymond" on WKRC-DT and comparing it to analog WKRC, it looks like the Green "tinge" may be gone, now.

Also notice there is currently no decodable video/audio on 12-2 - just a blank screen although the PSIP info/etc. is still being sent. Same thing is happening currently for WHIO-DT Dayton and 7.2, not that that "means" anything, necessarily ...

OK, but were you seeing the problem on all WKRC-DT programming or just the HD? I'd be curious as to how their HD looks

Sea Ray,

I was often noticing it on non-HD programming as well, even local news in comparison to analog 12(received OTA). But, since it was(or still is) a very "slight" thing(and that's why I said it was very difficult to say for sure), I think it perhaps most noticable in the shadows during certian "dark" scenes during HD programming, and especially in comparisons using the same HD programming(same scene whenever possible) to other CBS HD affiliates, such as WHIO-DT - although, I could make the comparision with WKRC analog as well, I don't think one can "count on it" as much for "precise" color comparisons with NTSC sources, especially perhaps with analog cable or OTA.

----------------------

Update : Never mind, sorry. Appears like I was wrong and just "seeing things". The Green tinge is still apparently there doing some comparisons currently with HD from WHIO-DT ... Especially noticable just now with a B&W section of the current performance ...

Anybody picking up all the analog stations when scanning for stations using QAM. I expected to only get the free local channels only, but I can actually watch ESPN and all other analog channels with Fusion card.

Also, Grammys are unwatchable through Time Warner even during non-performances. Other CBS affiliates are not having same problem based on thread in HDTV Programming thread.

Other CBS affiliates are not having same problem based on thread in HDTV Programming thread.

Don't think it's the affiliate(station), as It's fine OTA from WKRC-DT (Other than the very slight green tinge). I've only been monitoring it casually however, but haven't seen any problems.

I have an antenna problem that I haven't found time to work on, so I'm stuck with Time Warner. My wife left the room already she couldn't take anymore.

Anybody picking up all the analog stations when scanning for stations using QAM. I expected to only get the free local channels only, but I can actually watch ESPN and all other analog channels with Fusion card.


It is impossible to pick up analog channels with a QAM tuner. If you look at the specs for your card you will see that it also has a NTSC tuner that allows you to pick up the analog channels.

Also, Grammys are unwatchable through Time Warner even during non-performances. Other CBS affiliates are not having same problem based on thread in HDTV Programming thread.
Are you talking about the constant breakups? If so, I'm seeing that too. I'm going to hook up the antenna and see if that is any better.

UPDATE: Yeah, OTA looks fine. Kind of weird as I have never seen OTA and Cable end up so different.

Final Update for the night: WKRC-DT still has a slightly green hue over WHIO-DT.

See my post a few up from yours. Seems to be a firmware issue. I know people in other cities have gotten HDMI switching to work only after After their local time warner office did a firmware upgrade. Since the 8300 is HDMI 1.0, when it was first released its firmware would not allow a repeater/swtching device to pass on the signal. If I am understanding your situation correctly, it probably means the Cincinnati TW office has not released the newest firmware version and until they do, you will not be able to run the HDMI cable through a receiver. You will have to run it directly to the TV.

After a lot of fiddling around and research, I finally called Onkyo (the maker of my new receiver). I said that I had a question about HDMI switching. Their first response was "Do you have a cable box?". I said "yes". Then they said "Is is a Scientific Atlanta?". I said "yes".

They said they get calls all the time about this and said it is the cable box. You need an update to get it to work. I even talked to someone at TWC at level 3 tech support and they had no clue. So unless TWC gets an update or they get new boxes in that support HDMI switching then I will not be using my receiver for video switching.

So I put it back through the DVI slot on my TV. I'm so glad I have HDMI and DVI! One digital connection that you get on most TV's isn't cutting it.

Does anyone know the ETA for WCPO to get their 5.1 audio fixed? It was very disappointing that they did not broadcast the Superbowl 5.1. I know that they were having some issues back in Jan, but I would have thought that it would have been a high priority to get this fixed for the single biggest TV event of the year.

TWC has finally added UHD to the guide so you can acutally make recordings now.

TWC has finally added UHD to the guide so you can acutally make recordings now.

It is on channel 977 on Time Warner. Looks pretty good so far.

Weasel

Are you talking about the constant breakups? If so, I'm seeing that too. I'm going to hook up the antenna and see if that is any better.

UPDATE: Yeah, OTA looks fine. Kind of weird as I have never seen OTA and Cable end up so different.

Final Update for the night: WKRC-DT still has a slightly green hue over WHIO-DT.

Are you only having breakups on CBS? I've noticed breakups on WKRC-DT during the 11pm news, specifically on reports as opposed to the studio shots. I also saw the breakups real bad on INHD 1 (Basketball game).

My wife tells me she's seeing some on the non HD digital box on the other TV.

Are you only having breakups on CBS? I've noticed breakups on WKRC-DT during the 11pm news, specifically on reports as opposed to the studio shots. I also saw the breakups real bad on INHD 1 (Basketball game).

My wife tells me she's seeing some on the non HD digital box on the other TV.

I was having breakups on WKRC-DT so bad it wasn't worth watching anymore. I have now noticed breakups on UHD and WLWT-DT, but they aren't bad enough to stop watching, just annoying.

I'm getting them through TW and over the air on 5-1. Anyone else experiencing this problem?

One more quick, unrelated question. What does QAM standard for? Thanks

Yes, I am getting break ups also over the air. It must be at WLW or at the source. I wonder if viewers in other cities are also getting break ups. Off to check this out.

I'm getting them through TW and over the air on 5-1. Anyone else experiencing this problem?

One more quick, unrelated question. What does QAM standard for? Thanks

Its me again. In another forum someone stated NBC is having problems because of the heavy snow in New York.
Yes, I am getting break ups also over the air. It must be at WLW or at the source. I wonder if viewers in other cities are also getting break ups. Off to check this out.

One more quick, unrelated question. What does QAM standard for? Thanks

Quadrature amplitude modulation. QAM is the signal modulation used by most digital cable systems, including in our area.

More detailed info here :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadrature_amplitude_modulation

Yes, I am getting break ups also over the air. It must be at WLW or at the source. I wonder if viewers in other cities are also getting break ups. Off to check this out.

OK, I'm glad I'm not the only one. Saturday night Olympics, you'd think a lot of folks are counting on NBC showing off. I didn't notice any problems with digital cable WLWT-5 but it did get grainy a few times. Those of us with HD sets don't want to be forced to watch analog NBC either.

Its me again. In another forum someone stated NBC is having problems because of the heavy snow in New York.


Yes, that's it. It is network issue, everyone/all affiliates are getting it with the HD feed.

Here's a link to the post I beleive you are referring to :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7114283&&#post7114283

from what I recall, I think I remember something posted about it concerning it having to do with the use of VERY high frequencies which are effected by water droplets they are using for either a STL in NYC, or for the uplink to the bird for the HD feed, not the SD feed which uses a different "system".

3 years, 6 days to current scheduled "hard shut off" of analog stations .... It really can't come quickly enough when it comes to issues such as this IMO ...

Last Winter - I posted that WLWT-HD problems everytime the weather was very cold

Can someone with TW verify what you SNR levels are and if you are getting hundreds of QAM errors every few seconds?

Last year I was having problems with WLWT-HD and channel 998, the TW movie preview channel during the winter months

This winter, TW has changed the frequency on channel 998 from 975.00 to 957.00 and the problem has subsided

Is my problem with poor SNR related to the NBC NY affiliate or is it independent of that? Funny thing was that last year when I was having issues, everybody else said that they werent having any problems.

Thanks

Tony

This winter, TW has changed the frequency on channel 998 from 975.00 to 957.00 and the problem has subsided


As we discussed here concerning your issues on earlier occasions, that sounds like an ingress issue. Meaning, some other signal was(and still may be) "getting into" the wire and "interfereing" with certian frequencies. When it gets "cold", or water gets in the line or in connections/etc, the problem could get worse.


Is my problem with poor SNR related to the NBC NY affiliate

No, what happened last night has nothing to do with SNR and WLWT's signal either on TW's system or OTA. There was nothing wrong with WLWT-DT's signal(the signal that carries the digital data) last night, the problem involved the NBC HD network feed which WLWT-DT receives from NBC via satellite and retransmits, therefore it was the "digital data" that was not "all there". WLWT can't do anything about it if the problem is originating in NY. Everyone, every viewer of every NBC station(at least on the East coast feed, I don't know, as I haven't read up on how they are handling west coast feed for olympics) was experiencing the problem.


or is it independent of that?

Independant, different issue.

What happened last night, and that we ALL saw on NBC HD, had to do with issues involving how NBC distributes HD feed from NY, aloong with that severe weather stuff(but in NYC, not here) that you like so much, see here :

Massive Snowstorm Roars up East Coast (http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pri&dt=060212&cat=news&st=newsd8fnkr3g0&src=ap)

I have been getting a HUGE black box on my screen with a bunch of nonsense leters, numbers, and symbols. It goes away if I hit enter but sometimes comes back over and over... very frustrating. I get it on ESPNHD and Espn2HD but also sometimes on 45-1... Any ideas?

I appreciate your insight.

Maybe the issue is unrelated to last night, but it still seems like an issue with TW. It seems coincidental that there were issues on 2 channels with TW and now TW has remapped one of them to a different frequency and that problem is fixed.

Tony

Maybe the issue is unrelated to last night,


There is no maybe about it!

See the various reports here, in this thread :

XX Torino 2006 Olympic Winter Games Day One In HDTV on NBC (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7116356&&#post7116356)


but it still seems like an issue with TW. It seems coincidental that there were issues on 2 channels with TW and now TW has remapped one of them to a different frequency and that problem is fixed.
Tony

The Ingress issue you were having (and maybe still is to some degree) Is an issue you were having with TW. There's nothing coincidental about it if the problems when away if they changed the frequency (QAM Channel). It means, interference via ingress or something similar was causing interference problems with the "old" channel frequency that was used, that isn't the case for the new channel/frequency .....

That's a completely seperate issue from what all of us(even those of us who do not use TW, and use OTA, and even recieve other stations besides WLWT-DT) were experiencing last night for NBC HD due to the "weather" in NY and it's "effects" on the NBC HD feed. There is no doubt about it.

I think you are mis-interpreting what i am saying.

I have conceded the fact that my problem is unrelated to last night


All I am saying is that it is a problem with TW and not myself.

I think you are mis-interpreting what i am saying.
.

Definitely.

I can't read your mind, only your posts -- If you say "maybe" the issue is unrelated to last night, the only way I can interpet "maybe" is "maybe" ... could be yes, could be no .... If you mention "coincidences", then I can only assume you're thinking it was "conicidental", as in "Just a coincidence" ....

You mentioned the problem last night with NBC HD feed, and seemed to be wondering if it was a "coinicidence" or related to your ingress issues with TW from last year/etc, all *I* was trying to do was provide info that shows it had nothing to do with your TW cable ingress issues.


All I am saying is that it is a problem with TW and not myself.

Makes sense to me, and I don't have any problems "interpeting" that.

All I am saying is that it is a problem with TW and not myself.

That might, or might not, be the case. If the reception problem that you're experiencing is extraneous signal entering your cable and interfering with certain frequencies, then the problem is with you, and not TW, even though it might be resolved when TW changes the frequency it uses for certain channels. If, in the future, TW chooses to reuse the frequency that has been problematic for you, but not others, then you're right back where you started.

If the reception problem that you're experiencing is extraneous signal entering your cable and interfering with certain frequencies, then the problem is with you, and not TW, even though it might be resolved when TW changes the frequency it uses for certain channels.

Not necessarily. For example, Typically, cable ingress issues involve OTA signals which are transmitted on the same frequencies being used for the cable channels(but within the wire), these can "leak" into the cable system, and at the same time, the signals being sent via the cable can "leak" outside of the "wire".

Note that when this is the case, this isn't the OTA signal that is "at fault" or responsible, it's on the cable system to properly maintain their system so the cable system isn't so "leaky". They are "allowed" to use the same spectrum which is allocated to various wireless services(including OTA TV broadcasting/UHF band), but they aren't "allowed" to cause interference on the "airwaves". Their signals must be kept "within the wire" to certian tolerances -- and, it works both ways, if "interference" can get out from the "wire" into the airwaves, then signals from the airwaves can "leak in" as well.

Now whether or not it is(or was) "TW" that is at fault in this specific circumstance, or an issue involving the cable drop to tbenson81's residence(or those of his "neighbors'etc), unrelated to something that is the "fault" of the cableco or it's technician's is difficult to say. He may need a qualified tech from TW to come out and check it out to troubleshoot and diagnise the problem to find what is going on, and, it is unforutently possible that that may turn out to be more difficult than it seems it should be.

In any case, If you search back through this thread, you'll find we have went through this issue in much detail in Tbenson81's case.

I've been watching the Olympics on WLWT-DT. It looks pretty good, obviously with the exception of artifacting during high-motion scenes common in sports.

Has anyone else noticed the NBC "peacock" and rings logo in the upper right hand corner? Both times I watched in primetime it appeared interlaced incorrectly, but when I watched in the afternoon yesterday it looked perfect (then reverted to "interlaced' look in prime time). None of their other logos or graphics seem to have this problem.

According to a Cavs press release TWC of North East Ohio and Columbus regions will receive FSN-HD as soon as tonight. I sorta understand why we aren't getting it right away, but hopefully it's on the short track.

Press Release (http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/news/fsn_highdef.html)

question for those of you with TWC - do you get the Cavs games that air on FS Ohio? Directv blacks us out!

jim

According to a Cavs press release TWC of North East Ohio and Columbus regions will receive FSN-HD as soon as tonight. I sorta understand why we aren't getting it right away, but hopefully it's on the short track.

Press Release (http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/news/fsn_highdef.html)

That is good news. It's nice that TWC is carrying it in Columbus too. I wonder if there are any plans for the Reds to be in HD at all this season? It would be a matter of FSN alloting cameras/equip for Reds' baseball and then TWC picking up the feed.

question for those of you with TWC - do you get the Cavs games that air on FS Ohio? Directv blacks us out!

jim

Nope. We get a lot of Blue Jackets stuff

you would think the nba or fox sports (the nba I suspect) would want to increas market share and show the cavs down here - or even the pacers for that matter since they are closer..

question for those of you with TWC - do you get the Cavs games that air on FS Ohio? Directv blacks us out!

jim

Knowing very little about blackouts it might be wrong for them to black out the Cavs games for you. Since this is still FSN Ohio's market I would think they shouldn't be blacking out the games in favor of NBA League Pass.

BUT, I don't know what i'm talking about.

question for those of you with TWC - do you get the Cavs games that air on FS Ohio? Directv blacks us out!

jim

Just checked the guide and there is a game on FSN OH(TWC-CH 43) tonight at 7:00. San Antonio @ Cleveland Cavaliers. I don't kow whether all the Cavs games are shown or whether the guide info is correct. I'll check tonight to see if it actually airs.

Edit: Game is on.

I haven't follwed who has the rights for the coverage, didn't even know FSN was handling the cavs games, currently ... But, FWIW in the past, caviliers games have been broadcast on OTA stations in this area -- Probably most often on WRCX-LP 40 (low power analog station Dayton). And, I might be remembering it wrong but seems like I recall WRGT (and maybe WSTR) having some of the cav's game last year.

I've been watching the Olympics on WLWT-DT. It looks pretty good, obviously with the exception of artifacting during high-motion scenes common in sports.


I agree, it looks pretty good, at least the "True HD" portions of it. Still don't think it's up to par compared to PQ from 2002 HD Winter Olympics from NBC/HDnet+WLWT-DT, especially concerning what looks like MPEG2 compression artifacts("motion artifacts") during bandwidth demanding sections.

Nevertheless it's probably the most promising thing I've seen so far from a station sending 1080i that is also multicasting(in this case weatherplus). I think it can be, and really needs to be better though, IMHO.

It's really difficult to speculate concerning what is really going on and causing those "motion artifacts", without being able to directly compare to a NBC HD affiliate which isn't multicasting - For example, WLWT-DT, WDTN-DT Dayton and WCMH-DT Columbus are all multicasting a SD subchannel currently.

Also, I've noticed those "motion artifacts" have especially been a problem from NBC HD(including WLWT-DT) during HD sports since about Summer 2004(but not prior to that) - for example, there were problems with this on WLWT-DT during Summer 2004 Olympics, and WLWT-DT wasn't multicasting at that time.

Doesn't appear to be quite as bad as it has been, concerning the current HD olympics coverage, or the HD Daytona 500 qualifiying over the weekend. In fact, the latter is probably the best looking NBC HD during NASCAR I've seen since the few HD shots there were during 2004 HD Daytona 500(most of which used widescreen SD except for a few HD cameras) -- although it was only one car at a time this weekend ....

Concerning some of the Olympics stuff that's not HD, and is originating from the venues that aren't "HD capable" as Widescreen SD and is being upconverted to 1080i : Some of it seems to have an "overprocessed" looked to me ... But, It also looks that way to me from the 4x3 SD feed via the analog station(or WDTN-DT's SD subchannel) as well.

Not necessarily. For example, Typically, cable ingress issues involve OTA signals which are transmitted on the same frequencies being used for the cable channels(but within the wire), these can "leak" into the cable system, and at the same time, the signals being sent via the cable can "leak" outside of the "wire".

Note that when this is the case, this isn't the OTA signal that is "at fault" or responsible, it's on the cable system to properly maintain their system so the cable system isn't so "leaky". They are "allowed" to use the same spectrum which is allocated to various wireless services(including OTA TV broadcasting/UHF band), but they aren't "allowed" to cause interference on the "airwaves". Their signals must be kept "within the wire" to certian tolerances -- and, it works both ways, if "interference" can get out from the "wire" into the airwaves, then signals from the airwaves can "leak in" as well.

Now whether or not it is(or was) "TW" that is at fault in this specific circumstance, or an issue involving the cable drop to tbenson81's residence(or those of his "neighbors'etc), unrelated to something that is the "fault" of the cableco or it's technician's is difficult to say. He may need a qualified tech from TW to come out and check it out to troubleshoot and diagnise the problem to find what is going on, and, it is unforutently possible that that may turn out to be more difficult than it seems it should be.

In any case, If you search back through this thread, you'll find we have went through this issue in much detail in Tbenson81's case.


some of the old rural cable systems leak signal like crazy. I once got watchable HBO in my apartment with rabbit ears from a leaking cable line about 2 feet from the tv on the other side of the wall.

Not necessarily. For example, Typically, cable ingress issues involve OTA signals which are transmitted on the same frequencies being used for the cable channels(but within the wire), these can "leak" into the cable system, and at the same time, the signals being sent via the cable can "leak" outside of the "wire".
(snip)
In any case, If you search back through this thread, you'll find we have went through this issue in much detail in Tbenson81's case.

I guess I should have used bold, italics, and underlining in my sentence. :) Here, let me try again. "If the reception problem that you're experiencing is extraneous signal entering your cable and interfering with certain frequencies, then the problem is with you, and not TW, even though it might be resolved when TW changes the frequency it uses for certain channels."

I have been following this issue in all of its gory detail, so there's no need for me to search through the thread. In his last post before mine, he seemed to have concluded that the problem MUST be with TWC, and you agreed. I was merely pointing out that the problem could still be on his side of the fence even though something TWC did seemed to have made it better.

I guess I should have used bold, italics, and underlining in my sentence. :) Here, let me try again. "If the reception problem that you're experiencing is extraneous signal entering your cable and interfering with certain frequencies, then the problem is with you, and not TW, even though it might be resolved when TW changes the frequency it uses for certain channels."
.

And again, even though it is in bold, and is underlined, it is not necessarily correct, because the "extraneous signal" entering HIS Cable may have entirely nothing to do with anything Tbenson is doing "wrong". You seem to be saying in a "defacto" way that *the problem* is with *him*, and I am saying that is not necessarily correct.

I see no reason to repeat what I've already said about cable ingress and how it can occur. It might be happening 5 feet from Tbenson's TV, or 1 mile away, or 2 miles away. It's not necessarily *His* problem that's causing it. That's all I'm pointing out, here.

Now, it seems to me that if it's true that TW changed frequencies for the stations he was having the most problem with, I'd guess there's probably a good chance there may have been others who were having this problem as well.

Now, I'm aware that what I think you're trying to get at is that *since* he reports he's still getting a lot of errors showing up with diagnostic tools available on the decoder,(although he reported the issues had went away with dropouts/etc. on WLWT-DT after he said TW changed "frequencies" for those channels) and therefore seems to perhaps still be experiencing some sign of "issues" with ingress, thus that the problem is still likely there to some degree. However, that does not necessarily mean TW still doesn't have a "problem" and that it's Tbenson's "problem" instead.



I have been following this issue in all of its gory detail, so there's no need for me to search through the thread. In his last post before mine, he seemed to have concluded that the problem MUST be with TWC, and you agreed. I was merely pointing out that the problem could still be on his side of the fence even though something TWC did seemed to have made it better.

Perhaps I should have been more precise in my wording, sorry. Yes, I agree that it's possible it might be something on "his side of the fence" and not TW's. I wanted to be as "simple" as possible with my remark as seemed he was having difficulty understanding some of my comments to begin with.

I do think it's probably *more likely* TW's issue because of some of those "gory details" we discussed earlier in the thread. And, again if they changed frequencies for some stations and it *helped*, I don't think they would have done that if it was just tbenson81's problem, or if it was an issue tbenson81 was "causing" ....

So, What I *was* agreeing to is that I think it's a very good possibility the problem was TW's problem, or a problem with the cabledrop to his building/etc, not a problem tbenson was causing by doing something "wrong".

If I recall correctly, I believe he had followed through on this issue to the point of calling TW about it, and to the point of having a TW tech come out(who I believe he said replaced a splitter or something, although it didn't fix the issue) of thinking about it being a possiblity it might be something on *his* end(and investigating that to some extent), or involving the cable drop to his residence. I believe he lives in apartment with neighbors close by which, in a sense "share" the drop.

Anyone see the article about Disneys re-launch of thier movielink service? They are going to lease bandwidth from the PBS stations and stream PPV movies to a box in customers homes where they can order movies the same day as the DVD release. Guess that means more pixellation on PBS.

Just got done checking out http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-05-2649A2.pdf - where they list the future digital channel assignments - looks like wkrc is going back to digital 12 and everyone else is staying put.. it also looks like all dayton channels are staying put as well.. now the question.. what is the liklyhood that this will stay the same??

jim

Just got done checking out http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-05-2649A2.pdf - where they list the future digital channel assignments - looks like wkrc is going back to digital 12 and everyone else is staying put.. it also looks like all dayton channels are staying put as well..


Dayton is all staying on UHF, but WPTD-DT(58) is moving to it's analog assignment - channel 16(channel 52-69 are being refarmed for other uses after analog shut off), and WBDT-DT(18 currently) is moving to it's analog assignment, channel 26. Otherwise, you've got it.

Also, for those looking at that, note that a couple of the Dayton stations are listed under "Springfield, OH"(their community of license), even though they transmit from the Same Dayton antenna farm. Same thing(more or less) for WKOI(tower near Oxford) and richmond, IN, WXIX and Newport, KY - WCVN is under "Covington, KY", WPTO is listed under "oxford, OH". I have posted the info as well in Dayton thread and Cincinnati thread previously, and they're also shown in first "info" post in this thread for the Cincinnati area stations.



now the question.. what is the liklyhood that this will stay the same??
jim

Very likely. Not impossible that it won't change a bit, but very unlikely. It won't be set in stone though until the final "table of allotments" are released.

The entire channel election process and the rules involved were/are very complicted, and there are 3 "rounds" to the procedure. The vast, vast majority of stations made their choices in the first round, and those choices were analyzed by FCC for interference protection reasons involving other stations. Then there was a "conflict resolution" stage. WRGT orignally chose 45 and WKEF orginally chose 22 for instance. But, there were interference conflicts with those choices found by FCC, and both stations decided to amend their choice to their current, digital channels, which were approved by FCC in first round and they made the "tentative" channel designation list you provided a link to. The vast majority of stations also made it on that list.

Fewer stations participated in 2nd round(which I believe is almost, or is complete), only a handful of stations are left to particpate in 3rd round. Some stations with Lo-VHF in core assignments(even some who've already participated in 1st or 2nd round) will have the oppurtunity to change their choice in the 3rd round. That's not the case for most stations -- once they made their choice, and that choice was approved by commission(again mostly in the 1st round), after any necessary changes due to interference conflicts, that's the only choice they had -- the rules don't "allow" them to particpate in later rounds after they've made their "choice". That's very much related to the below as well :

Basically, (for the stations in this area at least, besides perhaps WDKY-DT 4 Lexington, since they elected "4" in the first round and are allowed to change that in 3rd round if they wish) what's on that list jim provided link to is not likely to change as FCC and stations HAVE to know where the stations will actually end up, and which channels will be "open" in any given area as soon as possible. As, there are a handful of stations which will particpate in 3rd round(and stations have the option to even ask FCC to "find" the best channel for them), and also there are 1,000's and 1,000's of low power stations to think of. Also, stations have to "plan" for their operation after analog shut off ... Just as one example, Putting the digital transmitting antenna up on top of the tower(those antennas are frequnecy specific, and are "custom built" -- it isn't done over night, especially for ~2,000 stations).

Now, after the entire process is over, here and there stations might be allowed in some cases file applications to change channels, and in some cases, those "channel changes" will be granted when they work ... No different than the case in the past with analog -- for the most part, look at how long most stations have been on the channels they are currently .... Except for the low power stations, It's been a long, long time since many stations around here were on "different" channels ...

And of course, there's also the possibility of *new* stations in the area in the future on any open channels(channel 2-51), or low power stations changing channels, or new Low power/translator stations ....

So, What I *was* agreeing to is that I think it's a very good possibility the problem was TW's problem, or a problem with the cabledrop to his building/etc, not a problem tbenson was causing by doing something "wrong"

Now that I can wholeheartedly agree with. For me, that's the biggest problem with cable. Whenever I have a reception problem, they always spend the first two visits trying to find a problem with my installation. On their later visits, I'm able to get them to climb up their ladder and start checking the condition of the coax on their poles. With my antenna hookup, I control everything, so when there's a problem, I am able to track it down and fix it.

With my antenna hookup, I control everything, so when there's a problem, I am able to track it down and fix it.

Yeah, I agree ... I certianly like being my own "CSR" and installer LOL, for the OTA, and for sat(well, at least the install party of it) as well in my case ....

Not that there's really anything that needs to be done after installation/waterproofing connections/etc, as the antennas pretty much sit up there and keep working for years and years and years and ..... And, that's really pretty nice too ...

Of course, for a TV dx'er like me, we have too much fun "tweaking" things to not mess with the antennas a bit every now and then ..

Anyone see the article about Disneys re-launch of thier movielink service? They are going to lease bandwidth from the PBS stations and stream PPV movies to a box in customers homes where they can order movies the same day as the DVD release. Guess that means more pixellation on PBS.

Nope, the data is transmitted on the analog transmitters.

General question, maybe you guys can help. I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on a sony rp lcd. It has a QAM tuner in it. I'm getting some locals up in Lebanon on my PC via a cheapy antenna. I also have a cable modem which is giving me the "lifeline" service from Lebanon telecommunications. I did this hoping I would be able to pull in the HD channels from that as well. I called the tech and he said the HD locals were not encrypted. However when I look at the channel listing from lebanon it shows the local HD channels in the 500 range, and its coded as needs digital subscription. Any thoughts on if I should be able to still tune this in like the tech said? Without a cable card ? or stb?

Thanks

General question, maybe you guys can help. I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on a sony rp lcd. It has a QAM tuner in it. I'm getting some locals up in Lebanon on my PC via a cheapy antenna. I also have a cable modem which is giving me the "lifeline" service from Lebanon telecommunications. I did this hoping I would be able to pull in the HD channels from that as well. I called the tech and he said the HD locals were not encrypted. However when I look at the channel listing from lebanon it shows the local HD channels in the 500 range, and its coded as needs digital subscription. Any thoughts on if I should be able to still tune this in like the tech said? Without a cable card ? or stb?

Thanks
Their channel listing is giving you the cable box channel assignment. The digital locals are actually broadcasted over the cable lines on channels like 85-2 or 119-3 (these are examples and probably do not reflect the real channels where you may find them). Chances are the local chanels will actually remap via PSIP to 5-1,9-1,12-1,19-1, etc. If the person you contacted said the channels are unencrypted, they probably aren't.

Also, cable companies generally don't advertise that you can get your digital locals without a cable box. My guess is that they don't want to confuse the general public or more importantly their CSRs :).

Nope, the data is transmitted on the analog transmitters.

So when analog broadcasting goes away, does the datacast go to the digital bandwidth?

Now that a date has been set for the analog shut-off, what do think the chances of having one of the local stations broadcast news and other local programming in HD by 2009? My guess would be between WCPO and WLWT. I am not sure of the budgets of the stations, but those two seem to have the top technologies for their newscasts.

Now that a date has been set for the analog shut-off, what do think the chances of having one of the local stations broadcast news and other local programming in HD by 2009? My guess would be between WCPO and WLWT. I am not sure of the budgets of the stations, but those two seem to have the top technologies for their newscasts.


I was just thinking about that myself. I agree WLWT or WCPO... I give WLWT a slight edge. Probably the easiest way to get that going would be to use HD equipment in the studio, but use the same analog cameras and equipment for on the scene coverage. They could either letterbox it or crop it widescreen and enlarge to fit. A lot of the broadcast quality SD equipment they use is probably "good enough" to do that with. It wouldn't look as good as perfect HD but it would still be better than what currently shows. WLWT's current newscasts look amazingly clear, almost quazi-HD with a 4:3 aspect ratio.


On another topic, a lot of people here are probably happy to see how WLWT handled an amber alert tonight. Instead of switching to the analog feed on WLWT-DT, they just added an HD graphic that read "Breaking News Now on Analog WLWT Channel 5," and then when a SD commercial came on they added the amber alert crawler. No HD content was missed and the public service was still served.

And while I'm raving about WLWT-DT, I might as well throw this in too. Maybe others have noticed as well, but from my watching experiences, WLWT-DT has done the best job of transitioning to and from commericals. It is seemless, with no obvious "switch over" as seen on other stations (WKRC-DT and WCPO-DT). Also, I've seen more HD commercials during Olympics coverage than during the Super Bowl. WCPO-DT seemed to be on top of getting the commercials through in HD toward the beginning of the Super Bowl, but eventually it seemed like they gave up caring and then all commercial breaks switched over to analog feed.

Notice how on some of the other stations the standard 4:3 content looks "blurry" (that's the best I can describe it). But on WLWT-DT, even the SD content (commercials, local content) look perfectly digital.

No I don't work for, or have any ties to, WLWT. :p

Forgot one more WLWT-DT rave. I know we all dislike subchannels for the most part since they take bandwidth away from the HD feed. However, if you have to choose content for a subchannel, WLWT's Weather Plus makes the most sense. The content of a weather subchannel like this is about as static (little motion) as you can get. Much of the screen is still graphics, and even the video portion is a guy standing in front of a still weather screen. You can get by with devoting very little bandwidth to this feed and still get decent results.

While I do like the content of "The Tube" on WXIX-DT, music videos are the absolute WORST thing to put on a subchannel. Music videos have tons of fast motion, cameras panning, and flashing lights. Not to mention since the audio must handle music, you've got to devote a lot more bandwidth to the audio feed than you would for the simple voice audio feed of weather plus.

nice post jimp...

make sure you let wlwt know of the good job.. the more people they know that are watching the better!!
jim

While I'm at it... if anyone missed the amber alert thing, here are some screen grabs:

"Breaking News on Analog Channel 5" Graphic:
http://65.185.12.23/caps/HDBreakingNews_small.jpg


And the Amber Alert crawler during an SD Commercial (I assume they did it during their own promo to avoid advertiser complaints -- ingenious!):
http://65.185.12.23/caps/AmberAlert_small.jpg

Here is some correspondance I had w/ TWC incase anyone is interested...:

Thank you for writing Time Warner Cable Customer Service,

Time Warner Cable of Cincinnati, Ohio will be adding NBC Universal HD specifically for the 2006 Winter Olympic Games. This channel will be available on channel 977. At this time, Universal HD is only be adding during the Winter Games. Time Warner Cable does not currently have an agreement with NBC to carry Universal HD on a full time basis. We do not currently have an estimated date of when an agreement may be reached. However, once an agreement is reached, Time Warner Cable will announce additional information through the media.

Unfortunately, we cannot disclose any information regarding potential future programming. However, we do continually evaluate the programming that is offered. We will continue to add channels as situations become favorable. We thank you for your correspondence, as we do utilize this information to influence programming changes.

----- Original Message -----
From: *@zoomtown.com
To: customerservice@cinci.rr.com
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 3:58 PM
Subject: HDTV Programming

Are we getting Universal HD for the olympics?
When are we getting StarzHD, CinemaxHd, WB-WSTR in HD, or anything else for that matter?

Any rough time tables?

Thanks,

Ryan *

So when analog broadcasting goes away, does the datacast go to the digital bandwidth?

Moviebeam/Disney will have quite a while (3 years) to make that decision, I guess they will see how the movie on demand over broadcast goes....I don't believe it will be a great deal of digital bandwidth anyway.

I agree with most of jimp2244's comments, I noticed the local "Breaking news alert" inserted into HD on WLWT-DT last night as well. However think HD quality could still probably be better from WLWT-DT, or perhaps(perhaps even unrelated to MPEG2 compression+ATSC bitrates) NBC HD during sports.

The weather subchannel works great with WCPO-DT at 720p, but I think there are times When 1080i HD needs "everything"(audio+PSIP take up some of the bandwidth too, of course). If bandwidth for WeatherPlus could drop from whatever it is(I'd guess somewhere in the range of 1Mb/s~2Mb/s) to ZERO when HD needs it, that would work for me. Of course, that would likely "freeze up" weatherplus and perhaps cause some STB's to "freeze up" as well during those short periods ....

Personally, I use WCPO-DT's weather subchannel quite often+have little use for weatherplus. Not because of anything involving PQ, but the info WCPO-DT's weather info+maps/radar info are what I'm interested in seeing, and I can often get the info I want to see by just looking at it for a few seconds(sometimes a couple of minutes), I'm not all that interested in "flashy graphics"(I do like the national and regional "maps" of the weather conditions on WCPO-DT though) watching a weather anchorman telling me details about what the weather is like in Iowa, or commercials/etc. Don't mind the "fisher homes" ad on WCPO-DT's weather channel either ....

Also, subchannels don't necessarily "take bits" from HD ..... The "tube" doesn't effect FOX HD at 720p either, given the way the Fox HD distribution system+the "splicer" works. As jmp2244 mentioned, I don't think it necessarily works out so well for the PQ for "The tube", however.

720p is more multicast friendly than 1080i. 720p has fewer pixels -- While It might not seem like a lot of difference if you look at the numbers of pixels per second 1080i vs720p, I think the difference is a significant one when we are dealing with the high MPEG2 compression ratio involved with HD+ATSC bitrates ....

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I don't believe it will be a great deal of digital bandwidth anyway.

If used with digital station, couldn't services such as moviebeam be set up to use available "oppurtunistic" bandwidth so it wouldn't effect PQ?

Even 1080i HD doesn't need "everything" most of the time - just during bandwidth demanding portions of programming, such as on WCET-DT the other night during "Frontline" when they had a night scene with a cop having someone pulled over, with the flashing lights from his cruiser being the main "ingredient" involved, I think ....

In the networking world, we have something called QoS (Quality of Service). Basically it allows you to flag certain data as being higher "priority" than others. For example, on a typical business network, voice traffic is given higher priority than, say e-mail. You can guarantee a certain amount of bandwidth (low limit) or set a cap (high limit) on any particular type of traffic.

It would be quite interesting to see this used in DTV. I would say an effective use would be to give the HD feed priority 1, and then allow the SD subchannel to use leftover bandwidth. It makes sense to me...

I don't know what the capabilities are for DTV though. For all I know this ability might already exist or might not be possible at all.

It would be quite interesting to see this used in DTV. I would say an effective use would be to give the HD feed priority 1, and then allow the SD subchannel to use leftover bandwidth. It makes sense to me...

I don't know what the capabilities are for DTV though. For all I know this ability might already exist or might not be possible at all.

I think that is somewhat along the lines of how it is working for FOX HD and Fox HD stations which are multicasting, such as WXIX-DT and "the tube". The MPEG2 encoding is done at Fox Network, and is "spliced into" the local stream at the affiliate. The stream from the network doesn't "change"(other than the locally inserted "splicer inserted bug" - If you're just getting WXIX, you won't notice that blue "fox bug" is not used by most affiliates, instead they have for instance "Fox 45" for WRGT-DT Dayton, and Fox 56 for WDKY-DT Lexington) from the time it leaves Fox's MPEG2 encoder until the time it reaches your decoder --- there is no add'l decoding/reencoding process at the affiliate, unlike is the case with other networks.

Thus, I think "the Tube" gets the use of the "leftover bandwidth", and I think the bitrate is variable for the FOX HD from the encoder(I don't know what the "max" is they ever send, assume it could potentially reach peaks somewhere between 15~17Mb/s during say, NFL HD football on Fox), depending upon what is needed for the content.

While I suppose it is possible for Fox stations to do it differently than that, the theory is the FOX HD PQ will be exactly the same no matter what affiliate you are watching. That's certianly the case for WXIX-DT Cincinnati multicasting The tube, and WRGT-DT Fox HD Dayton, which doesn't multicast anything.

Also, what you are talking about can be done with DTV+multicasting via Statistical multiplexing, which can also be used in different applications than you mention as well. KET engineer+AVSforum member William Smith has posted a little bit(can't recall in which thread) about how they are using Stat mux for their digital services, including on WCVN-DT Covington.

For those of you on Insight cable in Northern Kentucky and wondering where some of your digital broadcast channels went (for those without a cablecard or an Insight STB), Insight has moved them. Here are the new channel assignments:

WKRC-DT 89.1
WLWT-DT 89.3
WLWT Weather Tracker 89.7

If you do a re-scan on your (QAM equipped) TV (or STB) it will pick them up and drop the ones on 101 (the old assignment). For those of you with TV Guide on-screen you will still need to go into your TV Guide set-up and put in the new assignments.

Anyone notice that WKRC-DT dropped its subchannel?

Anyone notice that WKRC-DT dropped its subchannel?


Its been gone for a couple of weeks now. I'm sure it will be back though. CSI looked slightly better last night.

[/QUOTE]=make sure you let wlwt know of the good job.. the more people they know that are watching the better!!
jim[/QUOTE]


I've emailed them before about 5.1 audio and received a reply. They are responsive. I just wish they would turn 5.1 off during the commercial breaks like WSTR does.

Anyone notice that WKRC-DT dropped its subchannel?

I talked to someone at WKRC last month after they dropped the weather RADAR on the -2 channel and put their SD programming on it. I asked what they were going to do with the subchannel and was told that were were looking into something that would provide an additional revenue stream for the station.

I also spoke to the folks at WB64 (WSTR) and asked them if they were going to have a subchannel. I was told, "We aren't planning one at this time but that could change". Given their viewership numbers (they are dropping their 10 PM news after Feb. 24th because of poor ratings) and the fact the WB network is going away in the fall, I don't think that we will see anything soon from them. Maybe the new network, CW (which I have been told, WSTR will carry) will come up with some subchannel programming for their affiliates.

For those with DirecTV HD package - TNT HD is now up on channel 75.

For those with DirecTV HD package - TNT HD is now up on channel 75.


I have been experiencing a lot of pixelization... anyone else?

Not for me... what's your signal strength?

Not for me... what's your signal strength?


92

This is not directly related to HD locals, but since I am struggling along with d* and twc right now I figured I would ask. Does anyone know if it is possible to transmit a D* signal between two points wirelessly? The issue I am having is that I purchased a new hd tv for the bedroom, but we do not have any easy way to get a piece of coax to it. I am currently using some wireless video senders that I got back when I did some beta testing for C Bell, but they will not do HD. Does anyone know if this type of product exists? Google was less than helpful. It would either need to be able to transmit the hd signal that comes out of a receiver or just be able to "bridge" a piece of coax. I'm guessing that if it can be done, someone on this forum has done it...:)

try using a PC with MCE and an xbox 360. not sure if it all works yet, but it's close. wireless is over wifi

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

Do you have any cold air vents going to your bedroom?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.


check out this article http://www.thelongtail.com/the_long_tail/2005/11/first_take_xbox.html

In the networking world, we have something called QoS (Quality of Service). Basically it allows you to flag certain data as being higher "priority" than others. For example, on a typical business network, voice traffic is given higher priority than, say e-mail. You can guarantee a certain amount of bandwidth (low limit) or set a cap (high limit) on any particular type of traffic.

It would be quite interesting to see this used in DTV. I would say an effective use would be to give the HD feed priority 1, and then allow the SD subchannel to use leftover bandwidth. It makes sense to me...

I don't know what the capabilities are for DTV though. For all I know this ability might already exist or might not be possible at all.

Sorry it's taken me so long to dig this up, but I think you'll find the post at following link, as well as much of the discussion/explanations in this thread involving Stat mux and other ways stations which are multicasting(perhaps especially of interest for 1080i stations) can improve their HD picture quality :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7099348&&#post7099348

Sorry it's taken me so long to dig this up, but I think you'll find the post at following link, as well as much of the discussion/explanations in this thread involving Stat mux and other ways stations which are multicasting(perhaps especially of interest for 1080i stations) can improve their HD picture quality :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7099348&&#post7099348


Thanks for that info. Good information. Any way to know what kind of equipment and capabilities for this the DT channels in Cincinnati have?

Had a few comments/questions regarding PSIP. I don't think this has been discussed recently, at least in much detail. I have noticed that on some channels I get current program data and can also see what's on next, after that, etc. I can't remember for sure which channels the program info works for, but I think WLWT-DT does provide the program info while WXIX-DT does not. It could just be an issue with my personal set up but this is just what I have observed.

Also, I have done some quick research on wikipedia and google on PSIP but haven't been able to find the answer to this: How much program data can the DT station push through? How far into the future could they send their schedule? Could we see what's on in two weeks? A month? Currently it seems to only show shows scheduled for the near future (within the same day generally).

One of the reasons I'm asking is in relation to DVR/PVR equipment. While I think TiVo is great, I refuse to pay a "subscription fee" to get tv listings that are available for free on the internet from sites like TitanTV. With my current set up (ATI HDTV Wonder ATSC tuner card in my computer) I can go to TitanTV.com and schedule recordings by clicking a link. This is great but TiVo is much more seamless, and I'd love to have the ability to pull up a program guide compiled from all the stations' PSIP info and schedule a recording for next week (or schedule to record all episodes of Law and Order). Part of this is how a particular tuner card or set top box's software is written, but the availability of PSIP info is an important key here. I can currently say "record the current program I'm watching" (except on FOX where the PSIP info doesn't come through).

Had a few comments/questions regarding PSIP. I don't think this has been discussed recently, at least in much detail. I have noticed that on some channels I get current program data and can also see what's on next, after that, etc. I can't remember for sure which channels the program info works for, but I think WLWT-DT does provide the program info while WXIX-DT does not. It could just be an issue with my personal set up but this is just what I have observed.

It is not an issue with your set-up. WXIX-DT has a lot of problems with their PSIP equipment. At times, others stations have problems too but WXIX-DT seems to have the most problems. When you see the problem it is a good idea to call the station, (513) 421-1919. If it is after "business hours", call the newsroom (513) 421-0119 and they can pass it along to their engineering dept.

To answer your question about how many days of listings PSIP can supply it depends on your HD receiver. A lot of receivers can store at least 6 days and some as much as two weeks. The problem is that NONE of the local stations are supplying more that 12 hours worth of data and most of them are supplying much less than that (some as little as two hours). I have complained to all the stations about that and all said that they would try to improve the amount of EPG data that they provide but, so far, those have been empty promises.

Thanks for that info. Good information. Any way to know what kind of equipment and capabilities for this the DT channels in Cincinnati have?


I do know that WKRC-DT has a stat mux. Right now they don't need it (they currently don't have any sub channels) but I have been told "in the near future" they will have some programming (not a copy of their SD channel) on their sub channel.

Also, all the KET digital stations (like WCVN-DT, Covington) use stat mux equipment. With six digital feeds they almost have to.

Also, all the KET digital stations (like WCVN-DT, Covington) use stat mux equipment. With six digital feeds they almost have to.

Yes, also for more info on how KET does it, see the posts in the thread I provided a link in last post from AVSForum Member+KET engineer William Smith.


The problem is that NONE of the local stations are supplying more that 12 hours worth of data and most of them are supplying much less than that (some as little as two hours).


Yes, and I believe 12 hours for EPG info via PSIP EIT's are what is currently required per FCC rules.

12 hours is the mandate most system can feed up to two weeks but it takes a lot of time for that data to be refreshed in the receiver. 12 hours for each of our 6 Feeds (5 and 6 have minimal data) eat up about 300 kbps. Since aI also have to send one for WKMJ-DT in Louisville it eats another 200kbps.

Each individual DT station sends this PSIP information in the data stream that they broadcast, correct?

200-300kbps sounds like a lot of data. Assuming the station sends the same program data and channel remap information over and over again, how often does it resend? Wouldn't it make sense to have longer intervals and cut down the bandwidth needed for overhead? For example, instead of sending the information every second, send it every 30 seconds?

I read that PSIP has the capability to no only show program scheduling information, but also show summary information for a particular program (such as a description of an episode, guest stars, and whether it is new or repeat). I have not been able to get any of this information for any of the stations I receive, so I assume either they aren't sending it or my setup doesn't support it.

The program descriptions are in ours ( KET)..

The specific intervals are set by ATSC and they are in A65. Stations have no leaway in the matter.

D* just announced the next 24 markets that will receive HDLIL - Cincinnati was unfortunately passed over. Several smaller DMA's have been "bumped up" ahead of Cincinnati and will receive their HDLIL ahead of "schedule". There's a post over at Satelliteguys with the full list of the next 24.

Personally, I would rather get my HD OTA, but it is a bit disconcerting that D* has passed Cincinnati over, especially considering they used the Cincinnati Bell logo in their last big meeting with investors, held sometime this week.

As I said, in the long run, for me, personally, I'd rather pull my HD OTA, so this isn't really a big deal.

same here smackman.. thought that was interesting reading the inverstor pdf.. as long as any new hd and especially next years sunday ticket is in mpeg 2 - I am happy.. I have tried the new directv dvr and it is awfull.. not looking forward to the mpeg4 dvr... I expoept we will be in the next round of 20 or so later this year.. ie.. june / july. hopefully by then the new at9 v2.0 dish will be available.. looks a lot better than the current at9 - also wonder if the locals did not play nice with the HD signal. perhaps that caused directv to pass us over

eitherway - i still will use OTA for HD locals.. always...

The program descriptions are in ours ( KET)...

Which are working fine here, although that's not necessarily the case for all stations in the area(Dayton and Cincinnati), at least with my equipment.

Only one of my current 3 receivers(USDTV/Hisense DB-2010) really fully supports the EPG info from the EIT's in a fully useful capactity, and it's even quite "fast" on the DB-2010. DTC-100 I used to have worked well for this also, although it was awfully slow ....

For instance, Internal receiver in Sony HDTV here will only show the current program description(it works with analog+XDS as well, although it won't do station ID or auto time/date set via XDS), it won't let you "look ahead" beyond the current program, and Zenith HDV420 I have doesn't do EPG via PSIP at all. It doesn't even do auto time/date set from STT ... It does get the ratings info, does VC remapping, and EIA-708 captions, that's about it PSIP wise ...

Interesting.. wonder if WBQC could go this route...


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/22/business/media/22cnd-fox.html?_r=1&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print

Interesting.. wonder if WBQC could go this route...


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/22/business/media/22cnd-fox.html?_r=1&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print

Interesting article, but I don't understand why Fox stations would be effected by the merger.

Because News Corp.(Fox) owns stations which were UPN affiliates, and other stations(likely mostly currently WB affiliates) in the market are going to be the CW affiliates.

As they said in the article, Fox even owns 2 stations in some markets, in some cases with one station being a fox affiliate and the other UPN.

And, Keep in mind it's not the Fox network they are talking about (for instance, WXIX is a Fox network affiliate, but isn't even owned by Fox - It's owned by Raycom media).

Because News Corp.(Fox) owns stations which were UPN affiliates, and other stations(likely mostly currently WB affiliates) in the market are going to be the CW affiliates.

As they said in the article, Fox even owns 2 stations in some markets, in some cases with one station being a fox affiliate and the other UPN.

And, Keep in mind it's not the Fox network they are talking about (for instance, WXIX is a Fox network affiliate, but isn't even owned by Fox - It's owned by Raycom media).

OK. I'm surprised that's allowed. Wouldn't that be like Disney owning WLWT?

OK. I'm surprised that's allowed. Wouldn't that be like Disney owning WLWT?

LOL. If Hearst-Argyle wants to sell it and Disney wants to buy it, what would be wrong with that?

NOW -- it is true that there are rules and such concerning how many stations in a market one "company" can own, and those rules sometimes change .... But Disney doens't own any other stations in Cincinnati market(nor other media outlet In cincinnati know of), for instance Scripps-Howard owns WCPO. ....

And, there is a lot of grey area there ... If I recall correctly, for instance there is some sort of rule that a company can't own a TV station and Major newspaper in the same market ... But, In Dayton, we have Cox which owns WHIO AND Dayton Daily News ... How can that be? Because They've owned both a LONG time, since before those new rule went into effect and I believe they are "grandfathered." OTOH, Sinclair, which owns WKEF in Dayton and operates WRGT Datyon has been trying to get an ownership transfer for WRGT from a company called "Cunningham". So far, FCC won't let it happen, and even Jesse Jackson's "rainbow colilition"(surprise surprise) has voiced his opposistion to Sinclair owning both these stations in the Dayton Market ....

jessie jackass.. i mean jackson

The specific intervals are set by ATSC and they are in A65. Stations have no leaway in the matter.

Forgot to mention -- If jmp2244 or others are interested -- They can download detailed documentation and technical information(in PDF format) on the various ATSC standards from ATSC site. They are currently(and in the past)available for free download.

Here is the index to those downloadable documents :

http://www.atsc.org/standards.html

In addition to A65B concerning PSIP (current revision) and a few other documents available from that index, I've found the document listed under "a53d" particularly informative+useful, and I personally think it is a great place to start if you are interestsed in studying this stuff. Note that although it is in this listing as document a53d, the current revision available at the download link is actually "a54"(dec 2003). Title of this document is "Recommended practices : Guide to the Use of the ATSC Digital Television Standard". It contains fairly detailed information on MPEG2, The RF transmission system, info on receiver systems/etc/etc.

Another index of documents, in this case listing ATSC "recomended practices"(A54 document is correctly listed in this index) is avaliable at below link. Along with the A54 document in this "index", also of particular interest is the A74 document "Receiver Performance Guidelines" :

http://www.atsc.org/standards/practices.html

I enjoy studying these documents and using them for reference,etc, as I enjoy learning about "how stuff works". But, I'm a geek .....

Because News Corp.(Fox) owns stations which were UPN affiliates, and other stations(likely mostly currently WB affiliates) in the market are going to be the CW affiliates.

As they said in the article, Fox even owns 2 stations in some markets, in some cases with one station being a fox affiliate and the other UPN.

And, Keep in mind it's not the Fox network they are talking about (for instance, WXIX is a Fox network affiliate, but isn't even owned by Fox - It's owned by Raycom media).


i WONDER if some of the local stations would carry it as a multicast?

Maybe, but probably not around here, especially since we'll have a former UPN affilliate to show it.

same here smackman.. thought that was interesting reading the inverstor pdf.. as long as any new hd and especially next years sunday ticket is in mpeg 2 - I am happy.. I have tried the new directv dvr and it is awfull.. not looking forward to the mpeg4 dvr... I expoept we will be in the next round of 20 or so later this year.. ie.. june / july. hopefully by then the new at9 v2.0 dish will be available.. looks a lot better than the current at9 - also wonder if the locals did not play nice with the HD signal. perhaps that caused directv to pass us over

eitherway - i still will use OTA for HD locals.. always...

Jim:

I too am very happy to hear ST is still MPEG2. Do you have a link to that investor PDF?

http://www.longhornxp.net/directvnews.pdf

or

http://www.satelliteguys.us/attachment.php?attachmentid=7484&d=1140623682

I posted this on the Lexington Forum to view it you can go there to read it ? Is there a way to make your own Antenna? Capable of More Mileage than 60 or Plus Miles than where UHF all seem to end? I need more Milage VHF and UHF I am in an Area where you can Say I am in the Extreme Deepest of any Deepest Fringe Location I am about 85 +/- Miles from the Cincy and Lexington Towers Lexington Seem to come in Better. Cincy seem to be a Little Worse due to terrain.

spikor,

Yep, we can find the Lexington thread, I happen to subscribe to it but there is a thread index of all market's thread's in this fourm area as well.

Concerning making your own antenna --- while it's possible to build a high-performance "single channel" yagi on your own -- which would work VERY well for reception of a single TV station(and, you can also purchase single channel antennas with excellent performance) --- It would be extremely difficult to design+build a high-performance, broadband TV antenna which will work well on all VHF or UHF channels, or one that "works as well" as designs/antennas which are already available for purchase. UHF antennas such as CM4228, Winegard PR-9032, antennasdirectXG91, some of the european UHF anttennas from funke, Televes or Blake, and parabolic UHF reflectors such as CM's now discontinued CM4251 come to mind. VHF broadband antennas such as Delhi-Jerrold VIP-307SR (broadband for ch 2-13), or the winegard VHF-lo and VHF-Hi band Yagis also come to mind ...

The MAIN limiting factor on reception on VHF/UHF is curvature of the earth. No antenna model can "fix" that, the curvature of the Earth is going to get in the way beyond a certian distance, and be the "main" factor impeding reception.

Using "Range" mileage figures for antennas are not really "correct". How far an antenna will "work" has more to do with curvature of Earth, terrain, and height of transmitting and receive antennas. What ARE the important figures to look at are for antennas are: antennas Gain, and directivity and the frequencies they are designed to cover for good reception .....

Here are some good performance comparsions of some widely available antenna models :

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

You might want to check out some of the "antenna" threads in AVSforum, especially perhaps the one that's a sticky in this form area. There are several folks there are in "very Fringe" areas who have used various antenna models/etc. with good results who may be able to help you out.

Here are also a couple of excellent sites concerning antenna+reception info you might want to check out :

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennadex.html

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html

Last night and this morning I experienced many breakups and low signal strength on WCPO-DT on two different setups at my house. I haven't touched a thing with my antenna setup; I was receiving WCPO pretty strongly before. Just wondering if they lowered power for a test or something.

Scott

scott.. I had 3 breakups last night durring lost.. same here, have not touched a thing

I didn't see any problems watching through TWC.

I didn't see any problems watching through TWC.

I believe that TWC has a fiber link from WCPO-DT so if there was a transmitter problem you wouldn't have seen it.

I rarely watch WCPO so I didn't see it either but in the past few weeks I have noticed problem on WXIX-DT and WKRC-DT. WKRC-DT did have some problems with a cable between their transmitter and their antenna but I think that they now have it fixed.

FWIW, besides missing, incomplete or incorrect EPG info from PSIP EIT's in some cases -- I haven't noticed any problems with any of the Cincinnati/N KY digital stations lately here OTA, not to say there haven't been any when I haven't been watching or monitoring.

I recall several weeks ago some folks were getting breakups on WKRC-DT via cable, they weren't happening OTA at the time, so don't see how that issue specifically would have been likely to involve their transmission line ...... When they were having problems with the transmission line as Bill reported, it is of course possible during that time that they may have reduced power until they had it fixed ....

I did notice Columbus stations were coming in strong at times last night via a bit of enhanced tropo scatter, don't know about this morning. Keep in mind, there's a analog station in Columbus(WBNS 10) that transmits on the same channel(10) as WCPO-DT. So, OTA if you start getting "breakups" and such to WCPO-DT(and especially if your located somewhere generally between Cincinnati+Columbus), you might want to aim your antenna towards Columbus when it is occuring and check a analog TV and see how strong WBNS 10's(CBS) Signal is .... If it's "fairly visable", depending upon the directivity of your antenna, I'd say chances are probably pretty good co-channel interference is causing your WCPO-DT breakups ... our receivers do have "built in" NTSC rejection filters, but they can only do so much ...

Because News Corp.(Fox) owns stations which were UPN affiliates, and other stations(likely mostly currently WB affiliates) in the market are going to be the CW affiliates.




I hope that Ch38 can get its HD channel on the air before September when CW launches. Looks like Sinclair went the cheap way as MYNetworkTV is free for affilliates.


Sinclair Signs On To MyNetworkTV

By Allison Romano -- Broadcasting & Cable, 3/2/2006 4:11:00 PM

Sinclair Broadcast Group stations signed on Thursday for News Corp’s new broadcast network, MyNetworkTV, making it the first set of stations outside of News Corp to affiliate with the network.

Sinclair says 17 of its stations covering 11.9% of the U.S. will carry My Network TV when the service launches Sept. 5.

The new My Network TV affiliates are WB and UPN stations: WTTA Tampa, WCWB Pittsburgh, WRDC Raleigh, WUXP Nashville, WCGV Milwaukee, WSTR Cincinnati, WBSC Greenville, KRRT San Antonio, WABM Birmingham, WTVZ Norfolk, WNYO Buffalo, WUPN Greensboro, KVWB Las Vegas, WFGX Mobile, WMMP Charleston, SC, WDKA Paducah and WNYS Syracuse.

Those stations join 10 Fox Television-owned stations (9 UPNs and one independent) that are also converting to My Network TV.

“We are excited once again to be part of the birth of a new network. Given the great success of Fox over the years and their demonstrated history of thinking outside the box, we believe that over time this new network model will become a standard in the industry,” Sinclair CEO David Smith said in a statement.

“The advantages MyNetworkTV provides to our stations are compelling, with both a creative programming model for our viewers and a favorable inventory split.," he said. "We are especially excited about the Internet opportunities that will exist at the local level."

“Sinclair is operated by some of the smartest people in the business," said Fox Television Stations CEO Jack Abernethy said. "Their decision to become MyNetworkTV affiliates further endorses our approach to provide local broadcasters with network programming and a business model required to succeed in today’s converging digital marketplace.”

The deals bring My Network TV’s national clearance to 36%. The CW, in contrast, is already cleared in 52% of the country.

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6312455.html?display=Breaking+News

I hope that Ch38 can get its HD channel on the air before September when CW launches. Looks like Sinclair went the cheap way as MYNetworkTV is free for affilliates.

I have a bad feeling about this. TWC and Ch38 had a big problem reaching an agreement to get them on during primetime. I'm hoping that if they become the CW affiliate, they'll be on full-time.

I spoke to a TWC rep a few weeks ago about adding WSTR to their HD tier and she said it is being considered. Has anyone heard anything different?

// Scott A

I have a bad feeling about this. TWC and Ch38 had a big problem reaching an agreement to get them on during primetime. I'm hoping that if they become the CW affiliate, they'll be on full-time.

I spoke to a TWC rep a few weeks ago about adding WSTR to their HD tier and she said it is being considered. Has anyone heard anything different?

// Scott A

Another problem that WBQC (ch. 38) has is that they are not carried (at all) on the DISH Network. Hopefully, if they do become the CW affiliate, DISH will pick them up.

I spoke to someone in marketing at Insight Cable a couple of months ago and asked them why they didn't carry the digital feed of WSTR. She said that they just haven't reached an agreement with them yet but did expect to add them "sometime" in the future.

Update:

Oh yeah --- I wonder if there will even be any HD on "MyNetworkTV"? I haven't seen any announcements about HD from them yet, and Looking at the info in the thread in programming area on the programming they are going to have such as remakes of spanish soap operas/reality shows/etc ..... I dunno ....

If they are not planning on HD, perhaps that might open up other DTV "oppurtunities" for WSTR-DT involving various possible multicasting or datacasting uses for DTV ... USDTV is one thing that comes to mind, especially if they manage to get up to full power soon ....

:end update


I hope that Ch38 can get its HD channel on the air before September ......

Unfortunetly, I'm not too optimistic that will happen. They(nor WOTH-LP or any other LP stations in our area) haven't filed an application yet with FCC to Flash cut to digital on Channel, and the filing window for LP/CA stations to seek a 2nd, digital companion channel doesn't open until May ....

I think the situation with CW(or MYNetworkTV) with ACME and WBDT (WB Dayton) may prove interesting as well. We don't know what they're going to end up with yet, but here's some current "background info" on WBDT and Acme and the possibility of them becoming a "CW" affiliate :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WBDT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACME_Communications

If, for instance for some reason it turns out WBQC doesn't come up with the CW affiliation, seems like to me for the most part WBDT could be carried on Cincinnati area cable systems, although it probably doesn't cover Cincinnati as well as the other Dayton stations. Certianly better than it was when it was indpendant, then later owned by Pax, as prior to ~99 or so, it operated from a "lesser" facilitity+stick from Springfield, Ohio -- In ~99 or 2000, they improved their facilities (the analog is 5000KW ERP) and moved the transmitter to the "Dayton antenna farm", Just SW of Downtown Dayton ... WBDT shares a stick with WRGT, WRGT-DT, WBDT-DT, WKEF-DT ... If you're ever up that way, you can see the towers from I-75,(on the hill to the left before you get to U.S. 35 Exit) it's the one with the crossmember and 3 visable masts on top ...

Right now, the directional antenna patterns shown on FCC site for both WBDT analog/digital(HD) don't favor the South. Additionally, the digital station, currently operates on channel 18 at 35KW ERP (their full power DTV allocation) with WLEX 18(analog) Lexington being Co-Channel, and WXIX 19 analog being 1st adjacent channel, which probably doesn't help much if you're near WXIX tower and trying to pick up WBDT-DT OTA .... I'm thinking they may have gotten such a seemingly "low" UHF DTV power allocation perhaps because the DTV table of allotments may have been based on their original facilities/coverage area from Springfield, as well as perhaps the co-channel situation with WLEX, 1st adjacent channel situation with WXIX 19 .....

WBDT is moving it's digital to 26 after analog shut off according to their channel election choice, and the current FCC tentative post-transistion channel list, so that would seemingly take care of most of those issues, and I'd think probably allow them to maximize their coverage area a bit beyond where it is now if they so wish ... Since WOTH-LP 25 is a LP without CA designation, don't think they'd have interference protection in this case(they have to protect WBDT 26), and I'd think WLKY-DT 26(RF channel) Lousiville would probably be the biggest potential interference protection issue ...


WBDT/DT FCC query Info:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=WBDT&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

WBDT analog 64dbu contour map(grade B countour) :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=TV533885.html

WBDT-DT digital 41dbu contour (equivlent to analog Grade B contour, more or less) :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT628342.html

If by some chance there weren't a Cincinnati CW affiliate, I could be wrong but don't think there would be any issues for cable with carrying A Dayton station other than signal coverage issues, and cable carriage negotiations with the station/etc ....

----------------------

Update : Oh -- another note -- I'd heard a rumor(just a rumor) that CW wants their affiliates to have local news operations ... I wonder if that's true or not?

When I'd heard that, I'd thought about WSTR's discontinuing their news operation a couple of weeks ago ... Of course, PSIP guide info from WSTR-DT at 10pm still says "WB64 news at 10" the last time I looked, LOL ....

WBQC doesn't do local news(except for running WXIX news reports, and the entire news case during "bearcat bounce"/etc), and WBDT doesn't really do local news either(The "Daily buzz" used to be done from WBDT studios in Miamisburg, but not for a while). The Weather guy from Daily buzz does have local weather reports on WBDT at times ....
end update:

I spoke to someone in marketing at Insight Cable a couple of months ago and asked them why they didn't carry the digital feed of WSTR. She said that they just haven't reached an agreement with them yet but did expect to add them "sometime" in the future.

Hmm, unless I'm missing something, I'd think it should be showing up soon, as This press release from Sinclair from 12/23/05 (http://www.sbgi.net/press/release_20051223_138.shtml) Says Insight reached a deal with Sinclair for carriage of WSTR-DT and HD in December 05 ... Here is the text from the URL for convienience :

SBG Announces Cable Retrans With Insight Communications


BALTIMORE (December 23, 2005) -- Sinclair Broadcast Group, Inc.
(Nasdaq: SBGI) is pleased to announce that it has reached a multi-year
retransmission consent agreement providing for the analogue and digital
cable carriage for television stations in eight of Sinclair's markets by
Insight Communications cable systems, as well as providing for the carriage
of multicast channels.

The markets which will be able to receive Sinclair owned, operated
and/or programmed television station signals in high definition on
Insight's cable systems are:

WICS/WICD (ABC 15/ABC 20) in Champaign/Springfield, IL
WDKY (FOX 56) in Lexington, KY
WYZZ (FOX 43) in Peoria, IL
WSYX (ABC 6) and WTTE (FOX 28) in Columbus, OH
WSTR (WB 64) in Cincinnati, OH
WKEF (ABC 22) and WRGT (FOX 45) in Dayton, OH

WZTV (FOX 17) and WUXP (UPN 30) in Nashville, TN and WMSN (FOX 47) in
Madison, WI will also be available on a limited number of Insight cable
systems in certain markets.

Barry Faber, Sinclair's Vice President and General Counsel, commented,
"We are pleased to have reached an agreement beneficial to all parties
involved. This agreement was made possible because Insight recognized the
value of being able to carry our signals, which allowed for an appropriate
economic agreement to be reached."

Sinclair has previously indicated that it does not provide cable
operators with its digital signals without receiving adequate
consideration. Sinclair continues to negotiate with other cable systems,
and as a reminder, in those markets and for those cable operators where
agreements have not been reached, viewers can access the high definition
digital signal for free over-the-air.

Sinclair Broadcast Group, Inc., one of the largest and most diversified
television broadcasting companies, currently owns and operates, programs or
provides sales services to 60 television stations in 37 markets.
Sinclair's television group reaches approximately 22% of U.S. television
households and includes ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, WB, and UPN affiliates.

Just FYI, I've updated the 1st "station info" post of this thread with recent info.

If anyone has any updates, corrections or additions, feel free to PM me with those. Also, Anyone with any updates or additions to the contact info post in Doc's Post (#4 post in this thread), may also want to PM Doc with any updates/additions/etc ...

I had previously thought about adding info on cable carriage, such QAM and or cable STB "channel numbers" to the "station info" post, but figured that info was available from Cableco, and it might prove difficult to post all the different Channel #'s/etc for the various cableco's that serve the area, or to keep those accurately updated in a timely fashion.

I'm thinking of setting up some HD gear, but can someone please tell me if WCPO's signal is now DD5.1? From the first page of this thread it seems it IS, but I didn't see any updates recently to say it was now fixed?

Also, any ideas if there are plans for WKRC to go 5.1 anytime soon?

It looks like the folks at the new CW Network aren't exactly falling all over themselves to talk with WBQC...despite the station presumably being their only option in Cincinnati after WSTR/64 went with My Network TV this week:

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060304/BIZ01/603040364/1076/BIZ

but can someone please tell me if WCPO's signal is now DD5.1? From the first page of this thread it seems it IS, but I didn't see any updates recently to say it was now fixed?

They do have DD 5.1 capability, as is mentioned on their website (http://www.wcpodt.com) -- ---, and have used it on rare occasions -- which is why it's still in first post --- but they've had some issues with it, and have generally been sending DD 2.0, I believe.

Here's the latest update we have on it, I think :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7050094&&#post7050094

I haven't checked much lately to see if WCPO-DT is currently sending DD 5.1 or not. WKEF-DT Dayton does send all the DD 5.1 for ABC HD programming if you're going to be using OTA ...


despite the station presumably being their only option in Cincinnati


As I'd mentioned in a earlier post on this page, For the most part, Dayton stations cover Cincinnati area quite well, and we don't know yet what WBDT(WB HD Dayton - Owned by ACME) is going to do --- Dayton Towers are only about 40 miles from Downtown Cincinnati .....

If it so turns out that there isn't a CW network affiliate in Cincinnati(as you say, Block' s stations - most likely WBQC-CA would seem to be the option there), WBDT could become the CW affiliate for both Dayton AND Cincinnati .... If I recall correctly, sort of like WBNX has been with WB in Cleveland/akron Area .....

If it so turns out that there isn't a CW network affiliate in Cincinnati(as you say, Block' s stations - most likely WBQC-CA would seem to be the option there), WBDT could become the CW affiliate for both Dayton AND Cincinnati .... If I recall correctly, sort of like WBNX has been with WB in Cleveland/akron Area .....

Not exactly correct, as the Cleveland/Akron (Canton) area is one market, so WBNX is not serving two markets...they're serving one. :D (And their stick is up in Parma with all of the other major Cleveland market stations.) Akron, WBNX's city of license, is firmly within the Cleveland(/Akron [Canton]) market.

As far as Dayton's WBDT serving both markets, it certainly could do that as much as its signal would allow, but probably has no interest in "moving" to be a two-market station. Their local sales department would have to expand to Cincinnati, and they'd have to charge higher advertising rates for Dayton-area businesses.

It also would have to lobby for cable carriage in Cincinnati, and as far as I know, would not even be able to be on satellite for Cincinnati market viewers.

Hello fellow TWC customers, the following is info gathered from emails to TWC Executive Fred Dressler. These are his quotes.

Future HD channel update

ESPN2-HD - hopeful to have espn2hd in time for baseball.
STARZ-HD - End of the year at the earliest
CINEMAX-HD – is almost done
TMC-HD - is done
Wealth TV-HD - are not in the works
Outdoor Channel 2-HD – are not in the works
MHD (MTV) - will take many months to conclude.
National Geographic-HD - No Word
Food Network-HD - Scripps has not yet made us a proposal.
HGTV-HD - Scripps has not yet made us a proposal.

Not exactly correct, as the Cleveland/Akron (Canton) area is one market, so WBNX is not serving two markets...they're serving one.


True, which is why I said "sort of." I believe my statment was correct in that context. I was going to also mention WDLI+WGGN's tower location, however, that's not quite the same as what we're talking about, either ....

What I was trying to get across more than anything else was that even though we are dealing with 2 DMA's here, they are two DMA's that are VERY close to each other(and especially so concerning the majority of the population in Each DMA), and very similar to the distance between Akron and Cleveland metro areas. For instance, my location is considered to be in Cincinnati DMA, however I'm only 12 miles from the Dayton antenna farm - Even though I'm also only 27~39 Miles from The Cincinnati stations ..... Might help to try to "pretend" and Think of it as if Akron and Cleveland DID have seperate DMA's .....


Their local sales department would have to expand to Cincinnati, and they'd have to charge higher advertising rates for Dayton-area businesses.


While not widespread, it is not(and has not) been uncommon for Dayton stations even currently to have advertisements for Cincinnati area businesses, or to include Cincinnati phone numbers for businesses with Cincinnati offices/etc.

I don't know about WBDT, but much of the well populated Northern Cincinnati communities already receive some of the Dayton stations(as well as Cincinnati ones) via cable, and OTA reception of most Dayton stations occurs even from Northern Kentucky. The same is true concerning Dayton cable and some Cincinnati stations. I don't know, as there could be exceptions for stations on the "signficanlty viewed list" for those communities, but I would imagine, for instance network programming from the Dayton stations are probably "blacked out" in the Northern Cincinnati communities where they are carried on cable in most cases due to the stations network programming exclusivity rights within the market.

Also, Several Cincinnati Stations are on FCC's Dayton area significanlty viewed list. Even for Montgomery county where City of Dayton is - including WSTR. And, Dayton stations appear on cincinnati area counties(within Cincinnati DMA) signficanlty viewed list. WRGT(Fox Dayton) is even on Hamilton County's(City of Cincinnati is in Hamilton County) signficantly viewed list ...

WSTR used to also operate a low power translator in Dayton on Channel 66 (W66AQ). I think that was probabbly mostly because of the "ONTV" OTA subscription service they offered in Early 80's, and before they improved their transmission facilities/built that new "Star Tower' --- That was actually back when WSTR callsign was WBTI (later changed to WIII before the current WSTR callsign) ....

They are not "commercial" stations, however WPTO(thinkTV/PBS), and WKOI(TBN) are two more examples stations in the area Cincinnati or Dayton market which serve BOTH Cincinnati+Dayton markets to some degree. WPTO analog transmits from Oxford, WKOI transmits from near Oxford, both from locations "sort of" in between Cincinnati and Dayton. WPTO digital transmits from WXIX tower in Cincinnati. WKOI's COL is Richmond, Indiana, and they are "listed" in Dayton DMA, however, for their ID, they put up "WKOI", Richmond, Dayton,Cincinnati .....


It also would have to lobby for cable carriage in Cincinnati, and as far as I know, would not even be able to be on satellite for Cincinnati market viewers.

Must Carry would even apply within the station's grade B contour, of which much of Cincinnati Metro area is included(all, or nearly of it is for most Dayton stations, WBDT being a bit of an exception as mentioned earlier). Also, If there weren't a Cincinnati station as a CW affiliate, there wouldn't be an issue with Network Program rights/ exclusivity within the market for an out-of-market station such as WBDT.

I'm not at all "advocating" that this will occur, I'm only saying that it may be a possibility if a Cincinnati station doesn't get CW affiliation ....

In fact, back decades ago the idea was floated to turn Cincinnati+Dayton into one market and locate the transmitters "in the middle" of the Cincinnati/Dayton Metro area (about where WLW tower is, and the former site of VOA Betheny) ..... But, I don't think that Idea ever really got off the ground, as the idea didn't come around until well *after* the Cincinnati+Dayton stations were well established ...

Still have Universal HD here in Cincy on TW. Is this an oversight? I was under the impression it was only for the 2 weeks of the Olympics.

I am able to get Universal HD through my Toshiba 42hp95's built in tuner but cannot access it through my cable box. It was on channel 977. But I can't tune the cable box to that station anymore. My Toshiba tells me it is digital channel 76. My Tv remaps to channel 0. I hope it stays on. My understanding is that the first 2 rounds of the Master's golf tournament will be on Universal this year. Iam looking forward to seeing golf in HD.

I am able to get Universal HD through my Toshiba 42hp95's built in tuner but cannot access it through my cable box. It was on channel 977. But I can't tune the cable box to that station anymore. My Toshiba tells me it is digital channel 76. My Tv remaps to channel 0. I hope it stays on. My understanding is that the first 2 rounds of the Master's golf tournament will be on Universal this year. Iam looking forward to seeing golf in HD.


You have to put the cable box in diagnostic mode in order to be able to tune to ch 977. On the cable box press and hold the enter and exit buttons until diag shows on the cable box display.

Ridiculous. I've never done anything different other than turn on the box and cycle to channel 977.

Ridiculous. I've never done anything different other than turn on the box and cycle to channel 977.

And it's showing up in the guide? What cable box are you using?

Universal HD disappeared on my TWC box a few days ago. I have not tried the diagnostic trick though.

Hello fellow TWC customers, the following is info gathered from emails to TWC Executive Fred Dressler. These are his quotes.

Future HD channel update

ESPN2-HD - hopeful to have espn2hd in time for baseball.
STARZ-HD - End of the year at the earliest
CINEMAX-HD – is almost done
TMC-HD - is done
Wealth TV-HD - are not in the works
Outdoor Channel 2-HD – are not in the works
MHD (MTV) - will take many months to conclude.
National Geographic-HD - No Word
Food Network-HD - Scripps has not yet made us a proposal.
HGTV-HD - Scripps has not yet made us a proposal.

This would be nice but we haven't seen these in HD here in Cincinnati yet. I had to watch "The Sting" last night on TMC in letterbox form due to the lack of TMC-HD even though we're told that deal is "done".

This would be nice but we haven't seen these in HD here in Cincinnati yet. I had to watch "The Sting" last night on TMC in letterbox form due to the lack of TMC-HD even though we're told that deal is "done".

I am spreading the word that TWC Corporate is near deals for more HD channels.
Once "TWC Corporate" signs contracts for these channels and it's official, it is up to "local TWC" divisions accross the country to add them. your TWC division might add it before mine hear in the city or not depending on if they have space for it. Nothing offical has happened with TMC-HD yet.

And it's showing up in the guide? What cable box are you using?

I have never used the guide. I simply have about 30 favorite channels I cycle through with the favorites button on my Pace HD box. I originally added it by keying 977 then adding it to favs in the menu.

This would be nice but we haven't seen these in HD here in Cincinnati yet. I had to watch "The Sting" last night on TMC in letterbox form due to the lack of TMC-HD even though we're told that deal is "done".

Dumb question... Is TMC Turner Movie Classics or The Movie Channel :p

I am spreading the word that TWC Corporate is near deals for more HD channels.

We noticed......

IMO, I don't think you need to post the exact same info in nearly every local thread in local reception area which involve local TW service areas. There is at least 1 I know of you missed, btw ....

I do think this thread you created in programming area should be sufficent for you to "spread the word" :

More news about HD on Time Warner Cable (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=652328)

I have never used the guide. I simply have about 30 favorite channels I cycle through with the favorites button on my Pace HD box. I originally added it by keying 977 then adding it to favs in the menu.

Could you do me a favor and use the guide while you are viewing Universal HD on CH 977 and see if there is guide info for the channel. I'm curious as I also use the Pace HD box. Also do you leave your cable box on all the time?.

I believe TCM is Turner Classic Movies and TMC is The Movie Channel. Here is another Subject is it me or does anyone else notice. On WCPO Do you get a BETTER Signal where you can actually pull it in better on Sunday Mornings every time I tune in around 9 am to about 11 am my signal seems to Increase or Double but any other time I cannot hardly pull it in at all. However I do live on the Extreme Eastern Edge of the Viewing area. It seems to me they throw the Switch and increase the power some? Funny on the Analog Side WCPO is my Strongest Signal or channel to pull in followed by WKRC and the weakest is WLWT and on HDTV Side it seems to be the opposite maybe because WLWT 5 is 35 but comes in on 5 and WKRC 12 is 31 but comes in on 12 and they are on the UHF Side but WCPO seems to be the weakest I do not know why maybe it is on 10 and maybe 10 is a weak spot for a Channel to Transmit from who knows???? I know they are suppose to Install a new piece of equipment but do not know the status they probably do not have it installed yet because I have not seen any process of it helping me.

It seems to me they throw the Switch and increase the power some?


No sign of that here. I receive WCPO-DT perfectly OTA at all times from 32 miles north of their tower.

WCPO-DT's operating permit from FCC specifies they operate at 16.3KW ERP with a non-directional transmitting antenna pattern, it also says antenna height is 1,578FT Above Sea Level, 892FT HAAT ...(height above average terrain) .... According to their operating permit info from FCC site(TV query+CDBS database info), WCPO 9 analog transmitting antenna is mounted 110 feet HIGHER on their tower. From your distance, it is possible that could be one factor involved in what you are seeing ..


However I do live on the Extreme Eastern Edge of the Viewing area.


That would be approximately a few miles east of Hillsboro, OH. The SE edge of their viewing area would be a few miles SE of Maysville, KY. Here's WCPO-DT coverage area map :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1037437.html

At, or Beyond those distances especially, Reception conditions can vary when you're that far from the tower .... Typically(and especially in Spring/summer/fall months), in morning hours is when you'll likely often see the best conditions for reception from a bit "beyond curvature of the earth" ...

Also, if you are generally that far East of Cincinnati, it's possible co-channel intereference issues could be a bit of an issue as well ... In this case, a bit of signal from WBNS 10 Columbus could be noising things up a slight bit off the "side" of your antenna, and that could be "variable" as well. I recall one poster here long ago which was located in Hillsboro, and experienced co-channel interference issues with WCPO-DT/WBNS. He said he was getting quite a clear signal from WBNS with his antenna aimed towards Columbus, and frequent dropouts on WCPO-DT with his antenna (a RS VU190 if I recall correctly) aimed towards Cincinnati .....

I also show a Low Power(very low power - 2 watts) KET translator station that shows up in FCC database on channel 10 -- Callsign W10AR, Louisa, KY. Don't know if that one is currently operating or not. If you're in or near Louisa, however, you're certianly NOT in WCPO's interference protected "coverage area", or even on the fringe of it ....

If it is VERY near you(and I mean VERY near you), I suppose that could possibly be a co-channel issue for you as well. If they are on the air -- You'd likely have to be very, very close to Louisa, KY for it to be a potential issue :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=TX301422.html




WCPO seems to be the weakest I do not know why maybe it is on 10 and maybe 10 is a weak spot for a Channel to Transmit from who knows????


At 16.3KW ERP WCPO-DT does have a bit less "full power" allocation compared to most Hi-VHF digital stations, which I think are typically running between 30KW~60KW ERP'ish ... I'd think This is probably mostly because of potential interference protection issues involving WBNS 10, Columbus. That might be one factor involved in what you are seeing, and even though ~30KW ERP is only about 3db more signal than 16.3KW ERP, (60KW ERP being about 6db more) that could make a difference for you .....


I know they are suppose to Install a new piece of equipment but do not know the status they probably do not have it installed yet because I have not seen any process of it helping me.

It won't help your reception any. The new equipment they had planned to install has nothing to do with their transmission plant/transmitter/antenna/etc, or the OTA RF signal, only the data contained within that signal (MPEG2 HD video/etc) ....

You may be able to improve your reception with a bit better antenna setup. Think you said you were using a RS VHF/UHF combo and RS preamp. A better setup with generally a few more db gain(and better directivity) could involve for instance : Winegard YA-1713 would be an excellent choice for a HI-VHF (channel 7-13) antenna, in which case ... You'd need appropriate lo-VHF/Hi-VHF+ UHF combining, (a good low noise/high gain mast mount preamp proably a good 8idea for you as well) and a seperate UHF antenna, and possibly a seperate VHF-LO antenna if you need the latter for analog WLWT 5, WSAZ 3, or WDKY-DT 4/etc. Or, another option would be a Broadband VHF antenna (ch 2-13) such as Delhi-Jerrold VIP-307SR and seperate UHF antenna(CM4228, Antennasdirect XG91/etc).

Could you do me a favor and use the guide while you are viewing Universal HD on CH 977 and see if there is guide info for the channel. I'm curious as I also use the Pace HD box. Also do you leave your cable box on all the time?.

Box is only on when I am using it.

As for "guide info" perhaps I misunderstand. When mentioned previously I thought it was referring to the list of all channels and what is on them. In this context it made me think you meant the info bar that appears for a few seconds that can be brought up in detail with the blue "info" button. The answer to that is yes I can see detailed info from the blue info button.

Regarding the "guide", I will check back this afternoon when I get home from work and test it.

In diagnosis mode I was actually able to schedule recordings (not from the guide) for UHD. I was able to hit record while watching a show, which I couldn't do before they "turned the channel on." I could also create manual recordings of that channel. I never would have thought of using favorite channels as a way to hack around the removal of a channel from the guide, great idea!

There is guide info for TWC ch977. In either instance using the guide button or the info button on my cable remote. Hope that answers your question.

I have been the one as you can see talking about WCPO and needing help getting signal help. One thing since it was told to me by Nitewatchman ok here is what I am thinking you said their analog antenna /output is 110 ft. higher than their Digital Antenna I was just wondering whenever analog no longer exists I wonder IF they will move the Digital Antenna to the Height of the Current spot of the Analog Antenna. Enough on that just a thought? OK I been looking at the DB8 and the 91XG I might combine it with a Wineguard HD 8200 P Ok now since the Wineguard HD 8200 P is a VHF/UHF and the 91XG is a UHF what Amp or Booster do I go with I was looking at the Wineguard AP 8275 due to the 29db VHF and 28db UHF Gain will this be a plus?? I might go with it alone and go with the AP 8275 and the Antenna HD 8200 P but IF I combine the HD 8200 P and the 91 XG which Amp or booster should I go with? The CM 7777 or go seperately with a AP 8275 and a AP 4800? IF I combine them what Kind of combiner would I use when running it to the HDTV Coaxial Input?

I was just wondering whenever analog no longer exists I wonder IF they will move the Digital Antenna to the Height of the Current spot of the Analog Antenna.


I'd guess they'll probably have the digital station broadcasting from top of tower after analog shut off occurs .. I'd also guess they'll probably be able to "maximize" the signal for the digital station (increase power) as well ...


OK I been looking at the DB8 and the 91XG I might combine it with a Wineguard HD 8200 P Ok now since the Wineguard HD 8200 P is a VHF/UHF and the 91XG is a UHF what Amp or Booster do I go with I was looking at the Wineguard AP 8275 due to the 29db VHF and 28db UHF Gain will this be a plus?? I might go with it alone and go with the AP 8275 and the Antenna HD 8200 P but IF I combine the HD 8200 P and the 91 XG which Amp or booster should I go with? The CM 7777 or go seperately with a AP 8275 and a AP 4800? IF I combine them what Kind of combiner would I use when running it to the HDTV Coaxial Input?

If you combine a UHF only antenna with a VHF/UHF combo antenna with a VHF+UHF joiner(such as CM#0549), or the seperate VHF+UHF inputs on some preamps - You will get no use whatsoever out of the UHF portion of the HD8200p ..... It will most certianly work, though --- however, you can get better VHF performance than the HD8200p out of a similarly sized VHF only antenna.

Assuming you want good fringe reception on all VHF+UHF channels(even VHF channels 2-6) what I would probably do in your situation is :

VHF antenna(broadband - for channel 2-13) - Delhi Jerrold VIP307SR or VIP306SR :

http://www.starkelectronic.com/del307.htm

http://www.starkelectronic.com/del306.htm

The VIP307SR is simply the best VHF broadband (channel 2-13) antenna out there these days. But, if you don't want something quite so big(and therefore with less wind/iceload - not that it would be different in this regard than would be the case with HD8200p), but *do* want something that will likely be even a little better VHF wise than the VHF section on the HD8200p --- The winegard HD4053P VHF antenna should be a good choice for VHF antenna for you as well :

http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/hd4053p.pdf

---------------------------------------------

UHF Antenna : XG91, DB8, CM4228 or one of the eurpoean UHF antennas(Televes, Blake, Funke/etc) .... Take your pic .....

Preamp : I'd probably go with a mast-mount preamp such as CM7777 which has seperate VHF/UHF inputs -- In which case The VHF/UHF combiner is "in the amp", and you hook up a seperate VHF antenna to "VHF" input on the preamp, and a seperate UHF antenna to the UHF input on the preamp.

I wouldn't be too concerned about slight differences in the manufacturer's preamp "gain" specs ... You probably wouldn't notice a difference for instance between a preamp rated at 23db gain(UHF or VHF) or 29db gain ... No preamp can actually "boost" the amount of signal that your antenna is getting, they can only reduce losses from feedline/splitting signal, and in most cases lower the overall noise figure of your system. They can also "overload" and cause problems if you have nearby STRONG signal sources -- from what I"m understanding, that shouldn't be an issue in your case, however.

There are other possibilities preamp and VHF/UHF combining wise. However, for the most part I don't think other options would necessarily be any "better" than the above. But, You could for instance #1). use a CM0549 VHF/UHF Joiner ( see here : http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/joiners.htm ) before the mast mount preamp, and use a preamp with a single VHF/UHF input such as AP-8725. Or, #2). you could use seperate VHF/UHF preamps for seperate VHF/UHF antennas, with seperate feedlines(coax runs) from each preamp/antenna going into say, your attic, and then after the power supplies for the preamps in your attic, then combine VHF/UHF with a VHF/UHF joiner such as CM#0549.

----------------

A setup such as mentioned above should be quite an improvement for you(I'd WAG - probaby 4~6db increase in signal "overall" - probably more on some channels, less on others) over, say a RS VU120 or VU190 and Radio shack preamp ..... Will it be "enough" though? Hard to say -- If it Isn't enough -- is there something else that "would be?" --- Generally speaking --- Probably not would be my best guess, although, again it's hard to say .... For instance --- A hi-performance antenna designed *just* for reception of channel 10(such as the Blonder-tongue "professional" single channel yagi's -*expensive*) --- would be the *best* solution for WCPO-DT specifically -- unfortunetly, though, one of those will *only* work really well on Channel 10 .....

My current antenna is like the VU-190 it is 8 or so years old though. I know the Milage of mine is not what it claims I believe mine when I got mine was around 120 VHF and 70 to 80 Miles UHF if memory serves me right but that was 8 years ago I can go out and count the elements tomorrow the ones going from longest to shortest this away <<<<< I will give a combine number left and right on thr VHF part like on the left there is 13 and the right 13 for a total of 26 and UHF ++++++++++ I will count them as 1 since they are so short or do they the manufacturers count them as 2. Then you have the upper arm and lower arm above the UHF Part ++++++++++ / as upper and \ as lower whould you count them as a 1 or 2 as well?

The important, and relevant performance specs to look at when choosing antenna are it's gain and directivity over the range of frequencies(channels) It's designed for/channels you'll be using it for ....

WKRC-DT did have some problems with a cable between their transmitter and their antenna but I think that they now have it fixed.

I recall several weeks ago some folks were getting breakups on WKRC-DT via cable, they weren't happening OTA at the time, so don't see how that issue specifically would have been likely to involve their transmission line ...... When they were having problems with the transmission line as Bill reported, it is of course possible during that time that they may have reduced power until they had it fixed ....

A little technical housekeeping for my 1st post:

Except for using the pressurizing nitrogen a little faster than I would like, WKRC-DT has NOT been having any problems with "a cable between their transmitter and their antenna" so we did not reduce power until we fixed it. Actually, except for a bit of housekeeping during the day from time to time we've been full power 24/7 for months.

...and to clear up the mystery of the cable (TWC) breakups that weren't OTA on Grammy night:

When we eliminated 12.2 and gave all the bandwidth to HDTV, TWC choked on it. They had apparently made some multiplexing assumptions that couldn't deal with the entire 19 megabits per second we were sending.

They figured something out by about 10:30pm that night and it seems to be OK since.

BTW, just as we do with our NTSC video, we send our transport stream to TWC direct on fiber...

We keep trying.

I'm going back to *lurk* mode now...
Weasel is much more likely to speak up than I am, BTW. He's much more fun on line ;)

Bob

A little technical housekeeping for my 1st post:


Thanks for the info! Obviously, as you might imagine there is no substitute for accurate info directly from the source .....


Actually, except for a bit of housekeeping during the day from time to time we've been full power 24/7 for months.


I have not noticed any problems here with WKRC-DT RF signal, and that goes(as far as my hazy recollection allows, anyway) for the past 4.5 years ....

Not even a single "reception related" dropout, for that matter ..... In fact, I have to pad the signal down by adding about 55db or so extra attenuation in feedline to even get close to losing a signal lock from WKRC-DT. And, about 45db "extra" attenuation or so for me to notice any "effect" whatsoever on my receivers "signal quality" meters, so chances are good I probably wouldn't even notice it even if you did significantly reduce power ...


We keep trying.


Thanks! It's much appreciated ....


I'm going back to *lurk* mode now...


Don't be such a stranger -- and that goes for all of the folks at the stations out there --- We(well, I do anyway) greatly appreciate your participation here! :)

same here.. if you are out there chime in

Heads up .... It's awfully difficult to say for sure, as my reception of WSTR-DT has been excellent with their Low power STA as well ... HOWEVER :

Noticed that earlier, WSTR-DT was off air, so left the receiver on 33 while I was working .... At just around 2:15pm, they came back up, and I'm seeing something quite different with the "snow" on adjancent channel 32 on an analog TV, which *might* be an indication that WSTR-DT may have increased power(at least currently) .....

Update: Also, just rotated the antenna a bit real quick, and see I'm still able to
acheive a signal lock on WSTR-DT with antenna aimed as much as (and more than) 90 degrees off target -- which If I recall correctly wasn't possible with their STA ...


So, those of you who have had problems with WSTR-DT reception(especially those of you to SE of their tower in their antenna pattern's null), you might want to check to see if your reception has improved .... If so, At least you'll get to see a few months of WB HD programming .....

Speaking of which ... I was thinking -- something I don't think we talked about much is the possibility of CW network affiliation on a Cincinnati Digital station's Subchannel (Another possibility might be, for instance WSTR-DT could even do CW in HD and "MyNetworkTV" in SD ) .... Example from another market --- CBS Lexington is currently doing UPN on a SD subchannel, and CBS HD transcoded to 720p ....

Speaking of which ... I was thinking -- something I don't think we talked about much is the possibility of CW network affiliation on a Cincinnati Digital station's Subchannel (Another possibility might be, for instance WSTR-DT could even do CW in HD and "MyNetworkTV" in SD ) .... Example from another market --- CBS Lexington is currently doing UPN on a SD subchannel, and CBS HD transcoded to 720p ....

Funny you should mention it...I also wondered recently if CW might go with another over-air network affiliate to show their network on a full-market subchannel.

However, your scenario above is just not going to work. WSTR/Sinclair signed up with My Network TV and is not going to deal with The CW for any number of reasons, most of them involving greenbacks.

Another station in the market? Possibly. But that wouldn't get CW in HD (at least over-air), as the other over-air stations are primary to their first networks in HD.

I just now read this earlier message, as I don't visit the thread often...

I'm not at all "advocating" that this will occur, I'm only saying that it may be a possibility if a Cincinnati station doesn't get CW affiliation ....

I understand a lot of what you're saying, and yes, Cincinnati and Dayton are only a little further apart than Cleveland and Akron. And many of us have sketched out an "Akron/Canton" TV market in our heads - 23, 49, 55, 67 and two LPTVers (29-35 and 52-29).

But the overwhelming reality here is that the CW Network folks need a Cincinnati market station. Not a Dayton station strafing the northern 2/3rds of the market... for economic reasons, they need to be in both Cincy and Dayton. If they don't have an in-market presence in Cincinnati, they'd consider being stuck with (say) WBDT only to be a failure. It's economics. With WBDT, they can "rimshot" Cincinnati, but have no presence there financially.

The other problem - Cincinnati is the larger of the two markets, not Dayton. Unless WBDT effectively "moves" into Cincinnati, like WBNX has into Cleveland, it is a loss for CW financially.

Unlike WBNX here, which *is* a Cleveland market station, WBDT can't fill that gap for the CW in Cincinnati...unless it moves its stick south and becomes a full-market station. WBNX's signal is not an Akron rimshot - it's in the heart of the Parma antenna farm and is the strongest signal there, actually.

That's one reason I wonder if they'll even bother to take up with WBQC, and perhaps (as noted) they'll end up pairing with a stronger full-market Big Four network station and a new digital subchannel.

It'd be full market, and guess what? In 3-ish years or so, give or take a law change, it'll be the functional equivalent of the Big Four network signals (analog goes away), and provide much wider coverage than Elliott Block's Class A...even when he flash cuts or adds a digital channel. The only downside - there wouldn't be HD out of a subchannel, but TWC can surely offer CW in HD on their system.

However, your scenario above is just not going to work. WSTR/Sinclair signed up with My Network TV and is not going to deal with The CW for any number of reasons, most of them involving greenbacks.



But the overwhelming reality here is that the CW Network folks need a Cincinnati market station. Not a Dayton station strafing the northern 2/3rds of the market...


My, you seem awfully certian about these issues .....

You can't allways get what you want, but if you try sometimes .....

While I don't doubt that it's unlikely WSTR will end up with dual affiliation, I wouldn't necessarily count it out *completely*, either ...

I must stress[again] that I mention these as possibilities to think about, not as scenerios that are likely to happen .... I'm just an interested observer and what ends up happening might turn out to be interesting, and I think it's also interesting to think about the possibilities, no matter how unlikely some of them may be .....

At this point, I think the best case scenario would be if WBQC-CA ends up as CW affiliate, *and* WBDT strikes a deal for CW affiliation, in which case, concerning the latter and the immediate future *most*(or many anyway) of us in Cincinnati/Dayton area will be able to get HD programming from them, via OTA ......

Now, when I'd talked to him and asked him about their digital/HD plans several years ago, even at that time, Block did seem excited about HD, so hopefully, if they do happen to get CW network affiliation they'd be doing HD ASAP when they do get their digital On air ...

You might not know this, but actually -- WSTR was "originally" the UPN affiliate in Cincinnati, and WBQC was the WB affiliate .... Can't remember for how many years, but after a few years, they "switched" affiliation .... Maybe around the time, or just after Sinclair bought WSTR ....

When a "closer" network affiliate is not available, It's not alltogether uncommon for cableco headends to carry stations even "outside" of the stations service area(or market in some cases) .....

When we are talking about the southern areas of Cincinnati Metro area -- where most of the population is in those areas in Northern KY --- Which MOST dayton stations Grade B contour reach, and I'd think it would certianly likely be possible for a cableco headend in N KY to pick up WBDT, and TW could definitely carry it and service their huge Cincinnati area Service area with WBDT's signal ....


for economic reasons, they need to be in both Cincy and Dayton. If they don't have an in-market presence in Cincinnati, they'd consider being stuck with (say) WBDT only to be a failure. It's economics. With WBDT, they can "rimshot" Cincinnati, but have no presence there financially.


Of course it's about economics..... What I'm trying to say here is that I think they might consider either getting "stuck" with either WBDT or WBQC-CA a "failure", and which would they consider to be the "lesser" failure - I don't know that there is a clear answer to that one --- WBDT being out of market --- but able to "serve" nearly all the Cincinnati market, probably very nearly all of it with a little signal maximzation that should be possible after analog shut off). Or -- WBQC-CA, as a Class A/LP station TW doesn't even "want" to carry for the most part ... But, maybe WQBC could someday move to "full service" status(perhaps especially after transistion) as was the case with WBKI in KY .... Getting on a big 4 stations "SD subchannel" might look good to them now, but I'd think may not work out so well in the future, for the station or the network ....

Also, What you don't seem to be realizing here is that WBDT can cover the ENTIRE Cincinnati Metro area(including the populated portions of N KY) with a little "maximization" of their signal from their CURRENT transmitting location -- Most other Dayton stations ALREADY DO. The Dayton antenna farm is about 55 miles from the Southern Cincinnati "metro" area -- such as Florence, KY .....

Several years ago, Pappas submitted an application to FCC for a new full service Station on 32 in Xenia, Ohio (about right in middle of Cincinnati, Columbus and Dayton - farther away from Cincinnati than WBDT's current "stick"). In the accompanying exhibits to the application, One of their "points"(no matter how "silly" it might have been) for such a location was that they could serve all THREE markets from that location. FCC "reinstanted" that app in 2002, I haven't seen any activity concerning it since then ...


That's one reason I wonder if they'll even bother to take up with WBQC, and perhaps (as noted) they'll end up pairing with a stronger full-market Big Four network station and a new digital subchannel.


Well, In Cincinnati, Currently the big 4 are :

WLWT-DT(NBC HD/owned by hearst-arglye) is running WeatherPlus - I had read that hearst-argyle higher ups played a part in the creation of WeatherPlus ...

WCPO-DT(ABC HD/scripps) has their own local "weather channel --- it's full forcasts and the like, not just "radar" and it is carried on local cable(including TW) as well ...

WXIX(FOX HD/Raycomm) has "the tube" ....

WKRC-DT(CBS HD /Clear Channel) - Perhaps seems to be the most likely potential candidate out of the four at this point, as it's not multicasting, currently .......


The only downside - there wouldn't be HD out of a subchannel, but TWC can surely offer CW in HD on their system.


Another good reason for WBQC-CA to get the CW affiliation ;)

Another downside might be the station might not want it's SD "CW" subchannel to "steal viewers" away from it's primary service .... Not to mention the degraded HD PQ from the "primary" servicve, which hopefully, someday, advertisers(on a national OR local level) will start to care about ....

Update: of course, another possibility could be(one which would be LEAST desireable for me personally) : I suppose CW could even end up becoming "cable only" channel in Cincinnati, as is the case currently with UPN in Dayton ..... TW in Cincinnati has a HUGE service area, and a HUGE subscriber base. Without an affiliate, it Could even be available via DBS as a National feed .... Perhaps depending upon what happens with WBDT -- Except for those of us who use antennas, as even WBQC-CA can in some circumstances be received from Dayton -- I'm 12 miles North of their predicted "coverage area", and I pull in an excellent, snow free signal from WBQC ....

WBNX's signal is not an Akron rimshot - it's in the heart of the Parma antenna farm and is the strongest signal there, actually.


I see it fairly often via tropo "through" WWRD-LP 55, Dayton. WQHS 61(univision) Cleveland is another one that seems to get out quite well .... WEWS-DT 15 is the only Cleveland DT I've seen so far, but that's mostly probably because many of the Cincy digitals are co-channel (so is WDTN 2 Dayton/WKYC-DT for that matter) .....

Here is what Antenna I have and am currently using

My, you seem awfully certian about these issues .....

Pretty much so. The market realities don't change for any man. ;) The upshot of all of what I'm trying to say is that most major operators (even to the level of WBDT) do not try to serve two entirely different economic markets.

WBDT, if there's no CW affiliate in Cincinnati (an event I consider unlikely), would certainly welcome the extra viewers, but they are economically a Dayton station.


While I don't doubt that it's unlikely WSTR will end up with dual affiliation, I wouldn't necessarily count it out *completely*, either ...


I would. I mean, I wouldn't bet the house on it, but I'd bet some money. Sinclair's David Smith made it QUITE clear that they went with My Network TV in part because of the monetary reasons (he called it a "model" for such things in the future). My Network TV is charging affiliates nothing for the programming, not asking for a lot of inventory, and is much easier for cheap groups like Sinclair.

WSTR did not go with FOX/My Network TV because they lost the CW race. They went there FIRST, before any CW Network affiliate was announced in Cincy (indeed, even before the only other apparently likely outlet, WBQC, has been even contacted!).

Now, could CBS/TW panic and present WSTR an offer it can't refuse in Cincinnati? Maybe. I doubt it, but anything's possible. Such an offer would certainly have to include no reverse compensation, which goes against the grain of The CW's business plan. Like Sinclair's Smith, the CW folks have also made it clear that they are going to charge for the network.


I must stress[again] that I mention these as possibilities to think about, not as scenerios that are likely to happen .... I'm just an interested observer and what ends up happening might turn out to be interesting, and I think it's also interesting to think about the possibilities, no matter how unlikely some of them may be .....


I'll agree here. At very least, some "conventional wisdom" (CW? :D) has been turned on its ear here. It was widely expected that the CW folks would sign up stations by groups, but they are going station by station to get the most bang for their buck, as it were.


At this point, I think the best case scenario would be if WBQC-CA ends up as CW affiliate, *and* WBDT strikes a deal for CW affiliation, in which case, concerning the latter and the immediate future *most*(or many anyway) of us in Cincinnati/Dayton area will be able to get HD programming from them, via OTA ......


That may well be what happens. But don't expect WBDT to physically move south. You'd be watching WBDT as a Dayton station in the Cincinnati market, not as a station that attempts to serve Cincinnati...just as you do now.


Now, when I'd talked to him and asked him about their digital/HD plans several years ago, even at that time, Block did seem excited about HD, so hopefully, if they do happen to get CW network affiliation they'd be doing HD ASAP when they do get their digital On air ...


Do you happen to know if he's going to file for the paired digital channel when the FCC allows LPTV/Class A's to do so (May, I hear)?


You might not know this, but actually -- WSTR was "originally" the UPN affiliate in Cincinnati, and WBQC was the WB affiliate .... Can't remember for how many years, but after a few years, they "switched" affiliation .... Maybe around the time, or just after Sinclair bought WSTR ....


Yeah, I've read a lot of the WBQC history on their website. It's fascinating reading!


When a "closer" network affiliate is not available, It's not alltogether uncommon for cableco headends to carry stations even "outside" of the stations service area(or market in some cases) .....


Oh, very much so. Up here, Youngstown cable systems carry Cleveland's WUAB/43 for UPN. It's too early to tell if they'll hang onto WUAB in the post-UPN era, but it's likely for now, as they carry the NBA Cavaliers. But WUAB makes no effort to serve Youngstown directly...it's an out of market import.


When we are talking about the southern areas of Cincinnati Metro area -- where most of the population is in those areas in Northern KY --- Which MOST dayton stations Grade B contour reach, and I'd think it would certianly likely be possible for a cableco headend in N KY to pick up WBDT, and TW could definitely carry it and service their huge Cincinnati area Service area with WBDT's signal ....


I'd certainly agree that if for whatever reason CW didn't end up with a Cincinnati affiliate or a replacement (cable, etc.), they'd import WBDT much in the way Youngstown cable systems import WUAB. I just don't believe CW wants to be without a Cincinnati-based affiliate, and even if they do have to pair up with a WKRC, they'll do something.

Interestingly enough, on this very same topic, it appears ABC affiliate KVIA/El Paso, TX will launch a brand new CW affiliate on a digital subchannel in that market. It doesn't appear they are programming a UPN or WB subchannel right now.


But, maybe WQBC could someday move to "full service" status(perhaps especially after transistion) as was the case with WBKI in KY .... Getting on a big 4 stations "SD subchannel" might look good to them now, but I'd think may not work out so well in the future, for the station or the network ....


You're right...clearly, an SD subchannel is a fallback position for the CW. It would only make sense if the station in question (let's assume it could be WKRC) would mount massive cross promotion and 100% cable/satellite coverage.


Also, What you don't seem to be realizing here is that WBDT can cover the ENTIRE Cincinnati Metro area(including the populated portions of N KY) with a little "maximization" of their signal from their CURRENT transmitting location -- Most other Dayton stations ALREADY DO. The Dayton antenna farm is about 55 miles from the Southern Cincinnati "metro" area -- such as Florence, KY .....


They would have to move the usable signal a *little* south to be competitive with other Cincinnati market full-power stations.

I do realize WBDT can rimshot a lot of Cincinnati...again, my message is economic, not "can you pick up the signal".


Another downside might be the station might not want it's SD "CW" subchannel to "steal viewers" away from it's primary service .... Not to mention the degraded HD PQ from the "primary" servicve, which hopefully, someday, advertisers(on a national OR local level) will start to care about ....


The modern economics of local TV works against your assumption. Instead of "stealing away viewers", stations now want as many "tables" as possible to get viewers.

With a potential CW affiliate on a subchannel of a WKRC, for example, it matters not to Clear Channel whether you're watching CBS on 12 or CW on the subchannel. Just like in radio, it doesn't really matter to Clear Channel whether you're listening to WLW or WEBN. (Well, it does a LITTLE, but in the end, you're their listener/viewer and they can sell you either way.)


Update: of course, another possibility could be(one which would be LEAST desireable for me personally) : I suppose CW could even end up becoming "cable only" channel in Cincinnati, as is the case currently with UPN in Dayton ..... TW in Cincinnati has a HUGE service area, and a HUGE subscriber base.

Agreed there. The double-shot here is that A) TWC is Cincinnati's dominant cable provider and B) TW co-owns The CW. If nothing else, the ability to mount a full-market CW cable channel is a card they can play if they negotiate with Mr. Block. ("Yawn, we don't need you, you need us.")

Here is a few more if it helps

Here is what Antenna I have and am currently using

Looks similar to RS-VU120 or VU-160. The antenna setup I mentioned earlier would likely be quite an improvement - But, I'd guess You might want to "improve" your rotor/mounting setup a bit, to handle the heavier windloads ..... you might want to send a PM to avsforum member "Max HD", he could probably help you out with that more than I can, and might also have some good ideas for other antenna solutions that might work better for you as well ...

Pretty much so. The market realities don't change for any man. ;) The upshot of all of what I'm trying to say is that most major operators (even to the level of WBDT) do not try to serve two entirely different economic markets.

WBDT, if there's no CW affiliate in Cincinnati (an event I consider unlikely), would certainly welcome the extra viewers, but they are economically a Dayton station.


I understand that and agree with it, however I'm just trying to look at all the possibilities, no matter how Unlikely they may be ......


At very least, some "conventional wisdom" (CW? )


"CW" = Continuous Wave ;) --- We hams are talking about communicating with Morse Code when we say "CW" ....


You'd be watching WBDT as a Dayton station in the Cincinnati market, not as a station that attempts to serve Cincinnati...just as you do now.


I'd say it's at least possible (not likely ) they may attempt to serve Cincinnati to some extent if there's no CW affiliate there ... That is *all* I've been trying to say all along .... Otherwise, I agree, and I'd also be watching WBQC(and WOTH-LP at times) as well, just as I do now .....


Do you happen to know if he's going to file for the paired digital channel when the FCC allows LPTV/Class A's to do so (May, I hear)?


I don't know what his current plan is -- However -- about a year ago or so, someone posted some comments on this thread from one of the WBQC folks(don't recall if it was Block, or someone else there) that seemed to indicate they were looking at seeking a companion digital channel ... Guess We'll find out in a couple of months for sure when FCC opens the filing window for seeking companion channel the first part of May ....


They would have to move the usable signal a *little* south to be competitive with other Cincinnati market full-power stations.


#1). How competitive would they really *need* to be, though, if they were the only place to get "CW" in SW Ohio or N KY, including in either Cincinnati or Dayton DMA's ?

#2) I wouldn't think that should be too difficult from their *current* transmitting location(other than current interference protection issues for their digital station), but especially so after analog shut off :

Their current antenna pattern is *directional* for both the digital and analog station, with the COL being Springfield, not Dayton, but I'd think they'd be able to serve Springfield as COL with a non-directional pattern as well, or a pattern that favored both the South and E/NE ... The Dayton/Springfield full service stations(and one of the LP's) all transmit from the *same* antenna farm, about 40 miles North of Downtown Cincinnati, and Just SW of Downtown Dayton. According to FCC info/coordinates for the transmitting antennas, WBDT analog apparently currently shares a stick with WRGT, WBDT-DT, WKEF-DT+WRGT-DT ... It has a crossmember on top, with 3 "visable" masts ....

Here are more typical service area contours for a few of the Dayton Stations transmitting from the *same* antenna farm(and even the same stick where WRGT is concerned), as you can see they reach BEYOND the most populated portions of N KY ....... :

WHIO 7 Analog :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=TV269150.html

WDTN(50) digital :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT617874.html

WRGT(45) analog :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=TV92182.html


I do realize WBDT can rimshot a lot of Cincinnati...again, my message is economic, not "can you pick up the signal".


I understand that, however --- Again, ... Just trying to look at all the possibilities, here, no matter how unlikely they may be ..... I believe I've seen WBDT running ads occasionally for Cincinnati area business's(fairfield area car dealerships/etc) occasionally now, and AFAIK unlike many other dayton stations they aren't on many cable systems "in between" Dayton+Cincy ....


The modern economics of local TV works against your assumption. Instead of "stealing away viewers", stations now want as many "tables" as possible to get viewers.

With a potential CW affiliate on a subchannel of a WKRC, for example, it matters not to Clear Channel whether you're watching CBS on 12 or CW on the subchannel. Just like in radio, it doesn't really matter to Clear Channel whether you're listening to WLW or WEBN. (Well, it does a LITTLE, but in the end, you're their listener/viewer and they can sell you either way.)


I dunno, I don't think it was an assumption so much as what I've heard from folks in the biz(although it's been a couple of years since I talked to anyone about that issue, specifically, and certianly these things can change rather quickly) ..... "Local 12"+ as they so say at times, being the "Number one CBS Affiliate in the Country", or something along those lines(I don't recall the exact "specifics" they have referred to, there) could be of some importance to them .....

In any case, I think this market can perhaps sometimes work a little differently in some cases. Maybe not so much now however concerning CC as was the case in the past when the Randy Micheals and such were still around in Covington ...

I think we're sort of like a big "Mayberry", down here, as someone said earlier, and that's not really necessarily a "bad" thing ....

Also, these things can change .....

I understand that and agree with it, however I'm just trying to look at all the possibilities, no matter how Unlikely they may be ......

Indeed, we're agreeing, really, more than we're disagreeing. My basic point is that Cincinnati is such a large market, the CW folks will do whatever it takes to have a presence there...anything from ending up with WBQC, to a digital subchannel, to a cable channel.

They're already doing the latter with current cable-only affiliate "WRWB" "WB16" in Rochester NY, which was just announced as the new CW station in that market. Rochester is also another big Time Warner Cable market, like Cincinnati.

And of course, WBDT will be just as viewable there as it is now. It's just that The CW will not consider it a Cincinnati affiliate. Cincinnati viewers without cable or who can't pick up WBQC, if WBQC becomes the affiliate, will have no choice but to turn to WBDT if they're only using an antenna.


#1). How competitive would they really *need* to be, though, if they were the only place to get "CW" in SW Ohio or N KY, including in either Cincinnati or Dayton DMA's ?


CW is not ABC/CBS/NBC/FOX. It's a niche channel with no major events (save for, arguably, the WWE). You'll certainly see folks down your way watching WBDT if they're big fans of CW's programming and if CW has no affiliate there. I just don't see CW "giving up" on Cincinnati.

I dunno, I don't think it was an assumption so much as what I've heard from folks in the biz(although it's been a couple of years since I talked to anyone about that issue, specifically) ..... "local 12"+ as they so say at times, being the "Number one CBS Affiliate in the Country", or something along those lines(I don't recall the exact "specifics" they have referred to, there) could be of some importance to them .....

Oh, you're certainly right there...there's a "cachet" attached to such things. On the radio side for Clear Channel, WLW is a monster station and they're obviously very protective of that (and rocker WEBN on the FM side). And many a company has mounted a marginal format solely to draw audience away from one top competitor, so their station can be number one.

But in the end, CW will appear SOMEWHERE on the Cincinnati TV dial. If it's not on WBQC, it'll be on an OTA subchannel and/or on cable. If it's a subchannel, a WKRC (for example) would certainly want a piece of it, as opposed to someone ELSE taking that audience.


In any case, I think this market can perhaps sometimes work a little differently than others in some "areas", maybe not so much now however concerning CC as was the case in the past when the Randy Micheals and such were still around in Covington ...


Yeah, things have changed a bit since Randy left. But CC Cincinnati is still a monster within the company - WLW just hit XM Satellite Radio last week.

But look at CC's AM stations today - they run four of 'em, including two (TWO!) direct talk competitors to the 50,000 watt blowtorch. WKRC/550 handles the syndicated conservative talk, and WCKY/1530 does it on the liberal side. WSAI/1360 "Homer" does sports talk, and still, WLW manages to be highly rated. CC would rather have the ratings/revenue that WKRC/WCKY/WSAI have, rather than have CBS Radio (ex-Infinity) competing.

Indeed, we're agreeing, really, more than we're disagreeing.


It's certianly fun to talk about and think about it .....

A Quick update to This post. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7262173&&#post7262173)

Got a report "through the vine" from a fellow in WSTR-DT's "fringe" area(some 55+ miles away from their tower) .... He reported that he seems to be noticing improved signal from WSTR-DT ... Said it was "pegging his meter" now ...

So, at this point, at least, it appears WSTR-DT many be currently running increased power levels, now. Hopefully, we'll be able to tell "officially" soon, if/when they file for a "license to cover" their full power Construction permit(500KW ERP) with FCC ...

Anyone else notice an improvement in their WSTR-DT reception?

I was never really able to get it before with my indoor antenna, but also never really tried all that much since I never watch WSTR-DT. However after seeing the posts here I attempted last night and was able to get a lock and watch with no dropouts after slightly turning the direction of the antenna.

As another note, a while back I discussed my issues with dropout and multipath. I just wanted to note here that the newly released drivers for my HD tuner card are a huge improvement. In fact, I don't have any issues anymore as far as reception goes. ATI releases new drivers almost monthly so I was doubtful this one would be any different from the others, but it was. Interesting that a software update was able to improve reception that much. Perhaps they improved on their multipath filtering.

WSTR-DT is much stronger in Dry Ridge KY. It used to be just below the normal range, similar to WXIX-DT on my Zenith C34 W37 HDTV. Now its signal comparable to WKRC-DT which is the second most powerful channel here behind WLWT-DT which is the strongest at my location.

That's great news guys! Glad to hear jmp2244's reception issues have been taken care of with the new drivers as well ..

Enjoy the WB HD for as long as it lasts ...

Keep the WSTR-DT reports coming in, as they might help others out .... I'm especially curious if anyone in their antenna pattern's nulls(such as SE of their tower) who wasn't getting them before can see them now ....

I am East North East of their tower and attributed that (the directivity of their tower) to my problems pulling them in on digital (I could pull in WSTR analog flawlessly with the same antenna).

Any idea why they had/have a directional setup? Unless it was to keep from interfering with other channels nearby (which I assume is the reason) I can't think of any legitimate reason to do that.

I just talked to Terry in Engineering at WB64 (WSTR). He said that have been increasing their transmitter power and by tomorow they should be at full power (500 KW).

I also asked about a sub channel and he said that they are looking into it. I suggest that they might consider adding CW on a sub channel and he said that he will suggest that but there might be some (political) reasons why they won't (or can't) do that.

Thanks for passing along that info, Bill R. From what I'm seeing from the "snow" with analog TV on adjacent channel 32, it certianly even appears stronger now than last night ....

I also asked about a sub channel and he said that they are looking into it. I suggest that they might consider adding CW on a sub channel and he said that he will suggest that but there might be some (political) reasons why they won't (or can't) do that.

Or more accurately, some financial reasons - like the money CW Network wants stations to pay it, that Sinclair doesn't want to pay. :D

that Raycom doesn't want to pay. :D

slight<g> nit-picky correction --- In Cincinnati - Sinclair owns WSTR(WB currently), Raycomm owns WXIX(Fox) ....

slight<g> nit-picky correction --- In Cincinnati - Sinclair owns WSTR(WB currently), Raycomm owns WXIX(Fox) ....

Thanks for the catch!

Sorry, I get all my cheap TV station groups confused. I could have said "NexStar"!

:D

WKRC multicast will be back.. and I would not be suprised if they try to capitalize on the Local 12 theme.. ie.. provide more local events or stories of interest..

just food for thought




WKRC-DT(CBS HD /Clear Channel) - Perhaps seems to be the most likely potential candidate out of the four at this point, as it's not multicasting, currently .......

I would love to see 12.2 come back with a radar screen like they had before they went to their SD 12.2 then nothing on 12.2 I heard at one time for a .2 channel the Company had to have 3 hours of children programming per week I do not know IF this was the reasoning for the .2 coming down or any truth to it at all ???????? I wish they would put the radar back on .2 and add a couple more maybe a kids themed channel to keep the .2 on all time if this was a factor for it being turned off in the first place. Or turn the Radar off for 3 hours on Saturday or 1.5 hours on Saturday and 1.5 Hours on Sunday or .5 Hour Monday - friday or whatever for them to get their 3 hours of Childrens programming in per week or how much childrens programming they have to air to keep it on LIKE I SAID IF THERE IS ANY TRUTH TO IT AT ALL in the first place?????Who knows the reasoning behind the .2 coming down??????? I miss the Radar and wide range radar and Zooming into trouble spots when a Storm passes thru the viewing area(s)

Also it must be the Weather and the Rain I am pulling in WCPO about 70 % or more this is my trouble channel of pulling it in. Gald to see WSTR 64 maybe it wasa due to the Increase power hopefully it will stay around too WCET 48,52,54 probably tomorrow poof and they will be gone till another weather happening. Also I am pulling in Ch.4 Columbus Ch.2,7,22 out of Dayton as well like I said Tomorrow probably poof they will be gone and WCPO will be weak once again Hope I can pull em' all in forever but I know Wishful thinking.

I would love to see 12.2 come back with a radar screen like they had before

So would I and, like you, I would be happy if it is only part-time. I know that 5.2 and 9.2 are "weather channels" but sometimes you have to sit through 10 minutes (or more) of other stuff to see it.

Knowing Clear Channel (WKRC's owners) I doubt that we will see the weather RADAR come back. They really are pushing all their stations to make the .2 channels another revenue stream and something that people will watch more than just a few minutes a day. The other issue is getting the cable systems to carry the .2 channels. According to some numbers that I have read most local digital channel viewing is done via cable. I don't know how true that is, it sounds like more cable company hype.

Using the sub channels wisely is a big challenge for the broadcasters. From what I'm seeing it looks like, as of now, that the PBS stations are the only ones that are getting it right.

What about HD quality and getting that right ?

--------------------------------------------------

Update: Almost forgot. Doppler 12 Radar is available here 24/7 :

http://www.wkrc.com/weather/doppler/doppler12.aspx

The web version is higher quality than the old 12.2 version, and you can even "zoom in" on the area you want to see more detail.

They even have a "pop up" version, with add'l software which installs on your PC. Here is some of the info on it from their website, along with the link to install :

quote:

You can now have the tri-state's most accurate weather radar displaying virtually live images on your computer desktop. Best of all, it's FREE!

Pop-Up Precision Doppler 12 allows you to track storms as they move through your neighborhood. Set a point of interest and Pop-Up Precision Doppler 12 will calculate the arrival and departure times of the storm system.

Three levels of zoom capability allow you to keep an eye on threatening weather headed toward your neighborhood.

Pop-Up Precision Doppler 12 also has these features; a screen saver configuration to allow you to constantly track weather, an image archive which puts storms in motion and a display for temperature forecasts.

Pop-Up Precision Doppler 12 Features:

Virtually live Precision Doppler 12 Radar display on your desktop

6 Day Forecast Maps for Daily Temperature Highs and Lows

3 Levels of Image Zoom

1-hour Image Archive Allowing You to Watch Storms Develop

Personal Storm Tracker Will Let You Know When the Weather Will Arrive in Your Neighborhood

Can Be Configured To Be Your Screen Saver

:end quote

Link :


http://www.wkrc.com/weather/Popup_Doppler/default.aspx

Good stuff, just as we have come to expect from Hedrick+crew ....

Anyone heard whether Channel 12 will use subchannels to provide expand coverage on Thurs/Fri? I believe they did not do it last year even though it was done in a number of markets. I searched their web site and couldn't find any reference to it.

I received this email from their programming director this morning.

...We certainly understand the interests of our HD equipped viewers and would like to accommodate them. There are some internal issues associated with splitting the feeds that we are unable to resolve at this time. However, as I said, the question is still under discussion and will depend in part on our game assignments as well as our equipment issues. I will be happy to update you as soon as we reach a decision early next week.

Since we were talking about this earlier -- FYI, WBDT Dayton (all ACME WB affiliates, for that matter) is going to be CW affiliate. More info in this post in Dayton Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7282149&&#post7282149)

Hi all,
Not sure if this is the appropriate forum for this...I purchased a 37" JVC HDTV with an internal HD tuner this past weekend. I also purchased an RCA ANT585 HDTV indoor antenna. I am having all kinds of issues getting the OTA signals...I can pick up CBS the best but that comes and goes depending on slightly moving the antenna. I barely get NBC and never get ABC. My buddy has his antenna in his basement and can pick up Dayton channels. He isn't much farther north than I am. I have the antenna sitting behind my TV in the first floor of my house. This is getting very aggravating. Should I get a better antenna? What else should I try?

It would probably be easier for you to "fool with" the antenna while trying to tune the analog channels. If you can get those to come in quite clearly, then you can switch to digital and most likely will have good results. Good analog channels to test with would be 9 (to match up WCPO digital 10), and 19 and 48 for the Cincinnati UHF digital channels.

It's hard to find info on the antenna you mention, but from a picture that I saw (which may or may not be accurate), it looks like it is not directional or "not very" directional. A directional antenna would probably help you a lot especially since you are in Mainville.

An indoor directional antenna might look like this:
http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/sc/30471331-2-200-0.gif

I am in Loveland and have a similar antenna to the one pictured above and I can get all of the Cincinnati digitals with no problems. That doesn't mean it will definately work for you but it would be a good starting point.

Also, you say the antenna is "behind" the TV. The antenna needs to have the best possible "view" of the transmitting towers, and shouldn't be near electrical equipment that might cause interference. Getting the antenna higher, near a window, or, best case, outside would help. The more walls, trees, hills, and other obstacles the signal has to travel through the worse it will be.

Before you spend any more money though it's worth a shot to move your current antenna around (not just pointing different directions but actually moving the whole unit to different locations, maybe even different rooms or floors). Like I mentioned above, tuning the analog channels is a little easier to "see" how the movement affects reception, so try doing that. You may be able to get good enough results this way.

Before we get too far into this let me just add the standard disclaimer and say that OTA tv works BEST with an outdoor, directional setup. If you don't want to do this, that's fine, but just realize that if you want the best results that's what you need to do. As I said though, I have an indoor directional antenna and it works very well for me.

Thanks for the direction. When you say tune the analog...I don't have an antenna in the vhf/uhf port. I only have the antenna in the ATSC port port. That is the right way, correct? The RCA 585 is just a pair of rabbit ears with a 25db amp. It looks like you included a picture of the Terk antenna in your post...and I believe they sell those at Best Buy so I can always check that out.

yes, maineville not being too far from Loveland, I should be having better success with this.

You have it plugged in correctly. To tune the analog channels you'll need to switch to the VHF/UHF port.

Yes, the antenna in the picture or something similar should be at Best Buy. For what it's worth, I don't use any amplification and I even have a 50' coax run from my antenna (in a second story room) to my HD setup (basement). I have a 20dB amp but inserting that into the line between the antenna and the 50' run doesn't help any. I get 94-97% "signal strength" (whatever that is really measuring, I don't know) with my setup on WLWT-DT, and just slightly under that on all the other Cincinnati digitals except WSTR-DT, which I get 64% on the meter but flawless picture and no dropouts nonetheless.

Edit: (addition) Also for what it's worth, I have had very limited success with another antenna set that I have which is a UHF loop/Rabbit Ears from Radio Shack. The directional antenna makes a huge difference for me.

it seems as though the only one I can really get that comes in well is WB 64...seems to come in no matter which way I move the antenna. I stopped at Best Buy...they were all out of the directional Terk's (the guy did mention that was their best seller). I picked up another Terk model to see if that made a difference...reception is a little better but I still can't pull down 22 ABC. Will keep fiddling with it...maybe I will see if I can find the directional antenna somewhere else.

I should note that I'm not able to pull in any of the digital Dayton stations reliably with my setup... By changing the location and direction of my antenna I can get WHIO-DT and WDTN-DT but WKEF-DT (ABC 22) I have never been able to receive.

it seems as though the only one I can really get that comes in well is WB 64.

Do you mean analog WSTR 64 or digital WSTR-DT (33 mapped as 64-1 on digital)? Are you able to get good analog reception of any of the channels?

Edit: (addition) Just in case you weren't aware, there should be two parts to your antenna. The long rods (rabbit ears) receive VHF (channels 1-13) and the loop or bowtie receives UHF (13 and up). All of the digital channels use UHF except WCPO-DT (10) in Cincinnati. For example, WLWT-DT uses channel 35, UHF, even though its analog channel uses 5 (VHF). My point here is, for all the channels except WCPO-DT, the loop or bowtie is the key part to adjust. Shortening the rods might help for UHF reception also.

A directional antenna like the one we've been discussing receives both UHF and VHF so all you have to do is located it in a "sweet spot" for reception and point it in the right direction.

based on my current setup with the Terk TV5, here is what I am pulling down:
5-1 NBC
5-2 NBC
7-1 CBS (Dayton)
12-1 CBS (weak)
14-2
14-3
14-4
14-5
14-6
19-1
19-2
43-1 through 5
64-1

The only one I am really missing is ABC...so I am getting there...just a slight tweak or two...

43
64

Remember WCPO-DT (Cincy ABC) uses channel 10 (VHF) so for this one adjusting the rabbit ears will have an impact. WKEF-DT (Dayton ABC) uses channel 51 (UHF).

Looks like you're getting closer to an acceptable result.

not sure what you mean by two parts to the antenna? The Terk TV 5 basically has a little cylinder with two triangular shaped metal bands (one on each side). Mine does not have a loop or bowtie...it says on the box it covers channels 2 through 69. I am wondering if the cylinder part is the same as the bowtie.

You're right. If this image is your antenna:

http://www.hdbeat.com/images/2005/10/TV5.jpg

I was still thinking along the lines from earlier when you mentioned the rabbit ears. I believe the elements on that antenna do both VHF and UHF (not the cylinder).

rlp2955,

Maybe I missed it, but how does NTSC channel 9 (WCPO-TV) come in? Can you describe what the picture looks like? I would expect your HDTV to still have an NTSC tuner and be able to tune this channel in.

FWIW, some of the info available here might also help rlp2955 a bit :

Types of antennas/Bogus antennas/antenna design fundamentals/etc. (http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennatypes/antennatypes.html) -- IMO, it's usually best to go with antennas designed and shown along the lines as described in #2~5, #10~15 ..... i.e. - proven, "conventional" antenna designs ....

and/or :

AVSforum OTA digital TV reception FAQ (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6692920&&#post6692920)

As the topic came up here recently - some recent news --- FCC is currently planning on addressing/revisiting their Children's programming rules for broadcasters in their meeting this week -- Here's an article on it(it's currently available in its entirety here) :

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6315269.html?display=Breaking+News

For us perhaps, one of the most
interesting" portions of The new Children's Programming rules they'd previously come up with, which were supposed to have went into effect 3-1-2006 is : The new(current) rules require DTV broadcasters to air 3 hours children's programming per week for each program service they offer - including multicast subchannels ... If I recall correctly however, a broadcaster running 2 services(such as HD+1 SD multicast subchannel) could for instance air 6 hours per week on one service(subchannel) instead of 3 hours per week on EACH subchannel and still be in compliance.

Having received "letters" and such about the new rules, a more recent development has been FCC decided not to enforce the "new" children's programming rules until they revisited them again ...

We'll see what happens, but according to the article : It seems to be saying they expect there will be other changes, but they also expect the part about the 3 hours of childrens programming per week, per channel will remain "in effect" .... Who knows what the final "in effect" date will turn out to be, and if there will be any future changes as well ....

If that particular requirement does not change, we'll see what effect that may have on "SD Multicast" subchannels around here ..... As much as I'm "for" HD quality, It just doesn't make sense to me for a broadcaster to be required to run 3 hours of children's(E/I) programming for a service such as "weatherplus" or WCPO-DT's "weather tracker 9" subchannel, as those seem to me to serve the "public interest", including for Children .... Services such as "The Tube", or "CW network" on a SD multicast subchannel, however ---I can, perhaps to some degree see their point ..... but, what do I know, I suppose ....

Has WKRC announced its schedule for the NCAA games it will be airing? Any word on multicasting (whether it be one game on analog, one game on digital like WHIO OR multicasting all four games on digital like WBNS?)?

All,
Thanks for all the feedback. Just a quick update...I took back the Terk TV5 antenna I had yesterday to purchase the Terk HDTVi at Circuit City and they were out of them. The sales manager said they are "very popular"...so I have one to pick up from another location at lunch today. I plugged the RCA back in last night and messed around with placement some more. Still getting pretty inconsistent results. Maybe the "directional" antenna will help me pinpoint better...if nothing else, I will just have to give up and understand that something must be blocking the signal. It just shouldn't be that sensitive? I am on my 3rd antenna so it can't just be the antenna. Other option would be to put it in my attic and find a way to fish a cable downstairs. Or just get the HD receiver from Best Buy and not mess with it. It sounds like people are having success with the Terk HDTVi?

The RCA I was using last night has one of those bowties and then the rabbit ears. In terms of the Cincy HDTV channels, I shouldn't have to mess with the bowtie that much right? Does the length of the rabbit ears really matter that much?

I have been using antennaweb to try and pinpoint locations...if the majority of the channels I want are around the 220-230 orientation, and a few are at 2....how do you set up the antenna to get both? Do I have to sacrifice the direction to get most of the channels I want?

At this point, if I mess around with it enough, I can get CBS and NBC...and Fox every now and then. No ABC at all.

It's unlikely that you'd be able to get both Cincinnati and Dayton channels with one antenna. In any case you can't really aim at both. Pick one or the other, aim for that , and you should be able to get all of the channels from that location. The directional antenna should help you out.

You may have noticed by now that it's taking a lot of fussing to get results that are satisfactory to you. You may be able to get results that are fine for you with the directional antenna. If you don't want to deal with all the "fussing" the best thing to do is set up an outdoor directional antenna, as even a very small one would likely outperform anything you've got indoors. The antenna in the attic idea isn't a bad one, and it may work for you, but there is a big difference between attic and outdoors.

Just to close this out (perhaps)...I was able to get the Terk HDTVi antenna up tonight and it looks like I am in decent shape now. I can get the following:

WDTN 2-Dayton-NBC
WLWT 5-Cincy (slight breakup every now and then)-NBC
WKRC 12-Cincy -CBS
WHIO 7-Dayton-CBS
WPTO 14-Oxford-PBS
WXIX 19-Newport, KY-FOX
WKOI 43-Richmand, IN-TBN
WSTR 64-Cincy-WB

What is odd is that no matter which way I turn my antenna, I can't pick up either WKEF 22 (Dayton) or WCPO (Cincy) ABC. It never shows up on any scan even with a weak signal. That has been the one constant through all of these tries. Any other thoughts on what that might be? Would think that since I am picking up two of these other Dayton channels strong that it would come through. When I look at antennaweb, the compass orientation for Dayton 22 is practically the same as 2 and 7 out of Dayton. But hey...I can't complain after all this fun...

My bet on your issues with ABC:

1.) WCPO-DT is the only VHF channel you're trying to receive, so it's very possible the reason you can't pull it in is because you're having difficulty in the VHF band. How well do *analog* channels 5, 9, 12, 7, and 2 come in? Of specific interest here is *analog* channel 9. As it should be on the same tower as their digital channel, and also, since the digital channel broadcasts on 10, it is very near in band (which makes it likely that your ability to receive analog 9 is representative of how well you should be able to receive digital 10).

2.) WKEF-DT apparently is not transmitting on "full" power. While getting the analog channel 22 might be easy, their digital tower is broadcasting with apparently less power, which is what I attribute my difficulty in receiving it to.

rlp - what part of maineville are you in?

I am in the Willow Pond subdivision right off of Grandin/Kings Mills Road. I called DirectTV retention today and worked out some discounts to upgrade my standard receiver to the HD receiver...installer is coming out Friday afternoon. I may see if I can get the technicial to run me an outside antenna just to test whether I get a better signal. Just FYI for everyone...DirecTV doesn't support HD local channels in the Cincy market from the satellite right now. However, they plan on it...and when they do, you will need to have this new 5 LNB dish if you want to get your local channels through them. Obviously, if you are getting great signal OTA, nothing to worry about.

small world.. I am in indian lake - anyway.. our location sits up high on a hill compared to others in mainville / hamilton twp - you may want to look into a small directional antenna in your attic, it will work with no problems. Myself, I am using the sensar for cincinnati and the channel master 3081 for datyton.. after a little hillbilly engineering, everything works great now.. no problems whatsovever. jim

Anyone hear from WKRC on what their "decision" was on multicasting for the NCAA Basketball Tourney? The last post on this subject said they would know early this week. Since tomorrow is the big day, hopefully they know by now. If they aren't doing it, maybe WHIO is? If I have to point my antenna somewhere besides WKRC I will...

WKEF-DT is at full power, 138KW ERP, transmitting antenna at 2021FT Above sea level with a non-directional antenna pattern per their full power contruction permit from FCC. They filed with FCC for a "license to cover" that full power construction permit last summer. At present time, the only station In Cincinnati or Dayton I believe which isn't operating at the "full power" its allowed by FCC is WCET-DT -- even though they are actually operating at quite "high power" levels(215KW ERP STA).

Power for analog vs. digital is expressed differently. ERP for analog is expressed as "peak" power, ERP for digital is expressed as "average" power. Also, digital works with about 12db or so less power than it takes for analog.

That being said, at 1000KW ERP, WDTN-DT and WHIO-DT(depending on where you are located for WHIO-DT, as it uses a directional antenna pattern with a null to the Southwest of their tower) do probably have the strongest DTV signals out of Dayton. The transmitting antenna heights are relatively similiar, and the towers are "co-located" on the same antenna farm -- even though WKEF-DT's transmitting antenna is actually up just a little higher than WDTN-DT's according to info at FCC site. Not really an important factor in this case, however, with digital, it's turned out to be the case I think that transmitting antenna height can turn out to be a much more important factor than "power".

WKEF-DT would be about 7db or so "less" than WDTN-DT's signal. 3db "less"power is 1/2 power(512KW ERP is 1/2, or 3db less than 1000KW ERP), which is exactly the same as adding a 2 way splitter in line, or the loss in about 75ft of RG6.

To put that in a bit of "perspective" -- as a general rule of thumb, having antenna indoors(such as in attic - it would probably generally be a little less attenuation near a window facing the towers) attenuates signals by about 20db. Which is a lot, although indoor antennas can still work well(especially within 15 miles or so of transmitter - that's not saying they can't work in some circumstances from farther distances as well), because in a strong signal area, you can easily have as much as 60db or more(in some cases - say less than 10 miles or so from the transmitter quite a bit more) "headroom" to work with ....

Also to put that into perspective, here is the predicted coverage area contour map from FCC for the current operating facilites for :

WKEF-DT (digital) 41dbu contour (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT562360.html)

WKEF Analog 64dbu contour (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=TV303036.html)

WDTN-DT (digital) 41dbu Contour (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT617874.html)

WDTN Analog 47dbu contour (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=TV217725.html)

Note: The "fringes" of above predicted signal contour maps assume a directional, outdoor receive antenna with 10db gain mounted 30FT above ground. If I recall correctly, FCC planning factors also assume a 100FT run of RG6/4db loss in the feedline ... Terrain is NOT taken into account for those contour maps. The "dbu"(minimum signal strength) needed is "different" for VHF/UHF, and for digital vs. analog for various reasons, some of which concerning digital "average" power vs. analog "peak" power as mentioned above ...


WRGT-DT with Directional antenna pattern that doesn't favour the South(more or less), and WBDT-DT, with a relatively "low" current full power UHF allocation from FCC (35KW ERP) should, I think probably have the weakest signals of the 6 dayton digitals in Cincinnati area .... Nevertheless, all the Dayton digital stations should be receivable from most of Cincinnati Metro area given an adequete, outdoor, directional antenna setup .... Exceptions might be WRGT-DT/WBDT-DT from areas of N KY, including areas where one has to "shoot right through" say WXIX-DT's tower on first adjacent channel 29 for WRGT-DT 30 ... Same thing with WXIX 19 and WBDT-DT 18 ... Then theres WLEX 18 Lexington to think about in N KY where WBDT-DT is concerned .....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some thoughts on RLP2255's reception issues :

For indoor antenna installs --- Can't overstate the importance of something jimp2244 recommended earlier -- get some extra feedline, and move the antenna around to try to find a "sweet spot" for reception -- This is especially important from indoors ... Near a window facing the towers is often a good spot, but near a "wall" of your house that faces the towers is better than on the other side of the house as well .... Just keep in mind, the "sweet spots" may be different for different stations ....

Also can't overstate the benefits of another thing that's been recommended --- looking at analog reception --- reception impairments can be seen directly "on screen" with analog, figuring out what is "going on" with digital can be quite difficult, as the "signal quality" meters on our receiver's tell us nothing about what is causing reception impairments. It's actually even possible to get a "0" signal reading off the meter even though a strong signal is actually present. With analog -- "snow"=weak signal, "ghosts"=Mutlipath, "static", "sparkles" or "sqiggly lines"= various sorts of interference. Just keep in mind, these issues(including multipath) can at times be very "frequency"(channel) specific ...

For WCPO-DT on VHF -- don't forget to extend the VHF "rabbit ear" portion of the Terk HDTVi. And, as already mentioned seeing what you get on analog 9 can be very beneficial, here. If you want, you can add a two way splitter(it will cause about 3.5db of signal loss however), and hook the antenna up to BOTH the ATSC + VHF/UHF(analog NTSC tuner) input ....

Various sorts of interference from household appliacnes(including your TV, or PC's/etc) can especially be an issue on VHF with "indoor" antenna, you'll see such interference right on the screen on analog 9 if it's present. Moving the antenna to different spots to try to "mininmize" such interference can be quite beneficial here as well.

Also keep in mind -- Everything "near" the antenna(including you when you are adjusting it) becomes connected to it, and effectively "part" of the antenna, thus effecting it's performance ... A good "rule of thumb" is not to have anything "in front" of antenna in direction it's pointed within 10 full wavelengths of the lowest frequency(channel) you are using. Since that's 48 Feet on VHF channel 10, obviously, for an indoor antenna install some compromise is in order ...

Also, if you have aluminum siding or other conductive materials used for your house's construction, best if you can not to "shoot through it" with your antenna .... Again near a window facing the towers can be a good spot, although some types of insulated glass can also be a "multipath" issue .... In which cases, if you have nothing but asphalt shingles, wood and insuation to shoot through from the attic(foil backed insulation is not good), the attic can be a better spot than near a window facing towers ... Attic can also perhaps be better because it's higher, especially if say you have a nearby obstruction with a "Lower" antenna location ....

Another thing to try --- Make the VHF section(rabbit ears) a 1/2 wavelength dipole on Channel 10 (29" from tip to tip of rabbit ears) ..... More info on this, and other suggestions for improving reception from "rabbit ears" here : How to get "the most out of rabbit ears" (http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html)



For some reason, some folks seem to think I'm somehow "against" indoor antenna installs ... I am not, and I think it's great that indoor antennas can work very well for a lot of folks, you just can't count on it ....

Load info and suggestions which should be useful for folks, concerning OTA reception can be found at the KYES antenna info site (http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennadex.html) -- One example -- Such as "attic antenna why Not? (http://www.kyes.com/antenna/stacking.html)"

Probably more than anyone wanted to know, but just in case some of it helps there ya go ....

I emailed Chris Serhring the GM .. no response yet

csehring@wkrc.com


Anyone hear from WKRC on what their "decision" was on multicasting for the NCAA Basketball Tourney? The last post on this subject said they would know early this week. Since tomorrow is the big day, hopefully they know by now. If they aren't doing it, maybe WHIO is? If I have to point my antenna somewhere besides WKRC I will...

Given my location (275 at Wards Corner (Loveland area)), any suggestions on a "best bet" if I am to attempt to pull in a CBS affilliate that is multicasting for the NCAA tourney? (Assuming WKRC does not multicast). From what I've been able to find, these affilliates WILL be multicasting and are "somewhat" close to the Cincinnati area:

WBNS (Columbus)
WKYT (Louisville)
WLKY (Lexington)

OR.... do I not have a prayer (shouldn't bother with this)?


Update: I probably should mention that I have the Radio Shack VU-190 XR antenna and that it's currently not mounted on anything.

OR.... do I not have a prayer (shouldn't bother with this)?


Although it's hard to say ---- Probably not, unless there's a bit of "tropo" in the air .... If you'd have any luck, I'd think it would probably most likely be with WBNS-DT. While it is often possible to reliably receive stations on a consistant basis from a bit "outside" the coverage area, probably not quite that far outside of it ..... So, I'd guess if you did put up say, a 50FT tower and the "best" of antennas+preamp with rotor, you'd probably see WBNS-DT quite often, just probably not all the time, but again, it's hard to say ..... For that matter, I'd expect you'd see them fairly often(but very likely not all the time), or at least occasionally with your VU-190 mounted outdoors even 20~30Feet up and aimed towards Columbus, probably even without the preamp ....probably especially so in Spring/summer/fall months in evening or early morning hours ..... You'd just have to try it to see ...

WBNS-DT coverage area :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DS601805.html

WKYT-DT coverage area :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT615908.html

WLKY-DT coverage area :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=TV303747.html

--------------------------------------


FWIW, WHIO Dayton is going to offer different (HD) games on the digital station than they are doing on the analog station. Here's their schedule of games for :

Thursday : http://www.whiotv.com/marchmania/7969432/detail.html

Friday : http://www.whiotv.com/marchmania/8022278/detail.html

------------------------------------------------

where distance is concerned, reliable local reception of signals on VHF/UHF is limited by curvature of Earth as it relates to transmitting/receiving antenna heights ..... Doesn't matter how "good" the receive antenna setup is, beyond a certian distance, the curvature of Earth "blocks" the signals to too much of a degree for even the *best* of antenna setups to collect enough of the signal to "work with" ....

Given the heights of transmitting antennas for most "full service" stations in our region, for the most part the curvature of Earth starts becoming "signficant" issue about 55~65 Miles or so from the tower. One exception is WAVE 3 Louisville, which can reach out a little farther with a transmitting antenna about 500 Feet higher than the others in our area .... And, In practical terms(and especially so if there is also some terrain issue involved), for various reasons I think it can often turn out to work from a little farther on VHF than is the case with UHF ...

Also, concerning WLKY-DT, it transmits on channel 26, as does WBDT 26 analog Dayton, which would be a major co-channel interference issue for you .... Also, WSYX-DT Columbus transmits on 13 as does WKYT-DT .. Then there is WBNS-DT 21 Columbus, WUPX-DT 21 Morehead, KY (which shouldn't be much, if any of an issue most of the time, unless WUPX-DT is just blasting into the back side of your antenna via tropo - they do have a VERY tall transmitting tower).....

I mentioned "tropo" earlier .... For info on "tropo", how it works, as well as how local reception and long distance signal propagation "modes" "work" -- See the "signal propagation" section at following link :

www.dxfm.com

There is also a "tropo" forcast available here :

http://home.cogeco.ca/~dxinfo/tropo.html

Wow, thanks for all that info. If nothing else, I have learned more about rabbit ears over the last few days than I ever wanted to know.

Just some more information that might help give you an understanding of my placement. I have an armour that the TV sits on...and the antenna sits on top of that (probably 3 inches from ceiling). The antenna is dead center on top and pointed in the direction of Dayton. That was the only way I could get all those channels. I have the rabbit ears extended horizontally across the top. My problem with moving around too much is that it seems so damn TOUCHY. I can move it an inch and lose everything. In terms of the attic, I checked last night but I just can't see climbing into my attic and fishing a cable down to the first floor. A lot more work than I really want to put into it for additional channel...especially if I can get the DirecTV installer to at least test an outdoor signal for me when he is installing my new dish and receiver.

I could try a completely different location but stringing coax over the place isn't something my wife is going to deal with very well either :)

I have tried the analog on 10, and yes, I can see it, although snowy. It's almost like I am thinking it is something maybe in the setup with how my TV is scanning for digital signals? It doesn't even pick up a signal, even weak. It's too bad I can't get the TV to try to pick up this digital signal manually...if it scans and doesn't pick up anything for that channel, it won't even let me select it.

rlp - make sure they are installing an at-9 dish.. not triple lnb

My problem with moving around too much is that it seems so damn TOUCHY.


The system we are using for DTV in the U.S. was designed with outdoor, directional receive antennas in mind .... So was analog OTA for that matter - although with analog, you can still "see" the picture and hear the audio even if quite substantial "reception impairments" are involved .... That's not the case with digital, either the signal is "good enough", and you get Perfect reception and perfect pictures, Or, if the signal isn't quite "good enough" ... You get nothing .... Not much of a "in between", other than dropouts of both the audio and video given certian "marginal" reception conditions ...

That it works for indoor reception in many cases quite well(or at least to some extent) is a great thing, however. There's just no way to predict whether it will work from indoors in any given case -- too many variables involved ...... Also .... For example -- It wouldn't work to sit your DirecTV dish on your TV, there's no way that would work, unless perhaps it's aimed through an open window which just happens to be a south facing window just so "posistioned" such that the dish would have clear line of sight to the birds ....


I have tried the analog on 10, and yes, I can see it, although snowy.
.

I think you mean analog 9. Hard to say depending upon signal attenuation factors that may be involved, but for the most part I wouldn't think it(or analog 5,12 maybe even analog 7 or 2 Dayton) should be very "snowy" if the VHF portion of the antenna is extended, and VHF signals from the antenna are "getting through" to the tuner(the NTSC analog tuner in this case) "properly" .... Electrical interference (sparkles or "static") instead of "snow"(weak signal) is another issue entirely, however ....

In any case, If you can figure out a way to get the "snow"/interference or Ghosts out of analog 9, you shouldn't have any problem receiving WCPO-DT(digital/ABC HD) on 10 .... Unless something else is "wrong" involving "VHF" and your equipment/connections/antenna(generally unlikely I'd think if you've got everything hooked up properly, but not impossible) -- Placing+orientating the antenna so that it minimizes the "snow" or "interference" or ghosts on 9 as much as possible should help as well ... You might have to move the antenna to a "significantly" different place than it's current posistion .... I know you said don't want to do that, but, if it's going to have a better chance of working, that might be what you have to do...



It's almost like I am thinking it is something maybe in the setup with how my TV is scanning for digital signals? It doesn't even pick up a signal, even weak. It's too bad I can't get the TV to try to pick up this digital signal manually...if it scans and doesn't pick up anything for that channel, it won't even let me select it.

Yes, DTV receivers should allow you to manually tune to a "RF" channel(such as 10 in this case, or "10.1")+check the signal reading to adjust the antenna rather than only having a "autoscan" option ..... Some do this a bit differently, by allowing you to "scan in" an indivdual channel ....

As for the signal meter not indicating it's picking up any sort of signal ... That's farily common with the "signal meters" on these things, even in some cases when a strong signal(but one plagued with multipath or interference) is present ... While there may be some exceptions to this : That's because those "signal meters" (even though in some cases it might say "strength" right on the screen) aren't usually measuring anything concerning the actual "over the air" signal itself, instead, they look at the datastream+"errors" found .... Hence, they are usually best though of as "signal quality" meters rather than anything else ... A weak, but "clean" signal can cause high readings, a strong, but multipath or interference laden signal can cause low(or NO), or "bouncing around" readings .....


especially if I can get the DirecTV installer to at least test an outdoor signal for me when he is installing my new dish and receiver.


Word of warning here .... Hopefully, you'll get "lucky", but unfortunetly it seems many of the Sat installers aren't very knowledgable about OTA antennas or OTA reception ....

So, if you're not the DIY type, and don't like "running cables"/etc, You might want to try to find a knowledable, professional OTA antenna installer in the area - chances are, for your location+the station's coverage area involved -- such a knowledable installer would probably recommend/install(outdoors) medium sized VHF/UHF combo of conventional design (such as one of these this : http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/pr-7015.pdf ) , with rotor if you want to be able to receive both Dayton/Cincinnati stations ...

As I recall, One OTA installer that has been recommended here in the past has been an outfit called "TNT Pictures" in Cincinnati .... I'm not sure where they are located/etc .... It's been a while however since anyone has posted about their experience with local antenna installers ....

This probably belongs in the Dayton thread, but since most of us in Cincinnati can receive WHIO-TV/DT I figured I'd post the response from them:


WHIO will be providing HD games whenever possible this Thursday and Friday. The only exception is when Ohio State is playing on Friday, this game will be upconverted. There will be games that are being “assigned” by CBS on Channel 7 analog. CBS wants affiliates to carry HD games whenever possible on their HD channel. This is not always possible. Also they request that if your analog game is available in HD to air the same game on both channels. There will be no games additionally on digital channel 7.2, all the bandwidth on the digital channel is being dedicated for the HD signal. If you want a complete listing of game WHIO will be carrying log on to our web site at: http://www.whiotv.com/marchmania/index.html



Steve Hardy
Technical Manager
WHIO-TV, WHIO-DT, UPN-17


Since we haven't heard from WKRC on this yet, for now it's probably somewhat safe to assume that they will follow the same protocol...

Got a response from WKRC... They are sticking with one HD broadcast. They said there was a lot of debate within the station about this because most viewers prefer one high quality HD stream but in this case for the tourney a lot of fans want to "get all the games."

In thinking about it... I really have no complaint that they're deciding to give us a high quality HD stream, especially with all the complaining we've done about extra sub-channels.

I agree - it would be nice if they followed WHIO and showed only HD broadcasts on 12.1 and left analog 12 to show the cincinnati market games.. but I appreciate them not sucking down the bandwidth for radar :)

Hey guys, so I checked last night and I do indeed get a "snowy" picture for ABC. I can move the antenna and get a clearer picture but my scan still won't pick up digital. Just to let you know how bad this is...if I even stand up from the couch and move around, my signal goes in and out. Its ridiculous. I tried doing the splitter thing last night as well but that didn't do anything.

What is sad is I get this horrible PBS stations clear as a bell :) My signal strength for everything else is never higher than 77% and its rare I get it that strong. The two channels that come and go depending on the scan are 7 and 12 (CBS).

What do you guys know about these "clip on" antennas for satellite dishes? I am almost tempted to buy one and try it...I know its an inflexible solution since you can't move a dish yourself. But I could always take it back. Is there much I have to mess with to try this? From the back of the RCA box, it looks like I just have to incorporate a splitter somewhere in the line? Again, not much of a DIY guy here...

What's the benefit of not sucking down bandwith if they are not going to show the HD games. It looks like they will not switch to HD when they go to non-market game. The Seton Hall/Wichita St. game was shown in SD eventhough it's being broadcast in HD. So we get SD no matter what unless our market game is in HD. I would prefer market game on analog 12 and hd game on 12.1. Up on the roof I go to turn antenna towards Dayton.

www.ncaasports.com/mmod is streaming all the games anyway so even if our local stations aren't showing what we want, there is a way to see all the games (even if it's not HD). For those lucky enough to get a free VIP pass, you get to cut in line (there's a waiting room to get in to watch the games). Plus you can watch at work (I've got two games going right now).

What do you guys know about these "clip on" antennas for satellite dishes? I am almost tempted to buy one and try it...I know its an inflexible solution since you can't move a dish yourself. But I could always take it back. Is there much I have to mess with to try this? From the back of the RCA box, it looks like I just have to incorporate a splitter somewhere in the line? Again, not much of a DIY guy here...


If you're going to do that, why not get a small directional rooftop antenna and put that up? You could run the cable along side the one used for your dish and you'd certainly get better results than the dish clip on.

What do you guys know about these "clip on" antennas for satellite dishes?


They are generally not a good idea, as they are nothing more than a folded dipole, which as you say -- you can't adjust --

HOWEVER -- In your case, perhaps it might be worth a try for the sake of simplicity+ease of installation, as giving the orientation of the dish+your location -- I'd think the dish clip on antenna might be so "orientated" pretty close to where you might(emphacize might) be able to get good results from Cincinnati stations, and perhaps even Dayton stations off the back side of it ... It's not very "directional" however, and doesn't have any real "signal gain" to speak of ... In your case, would it be better than any indoor antenna that you can "move around' to find a sweet spot? Hard to say, but I'd say there's a very good chance of that, I'd even guess that it's probably likely ...


I am almost tempted to buy one and try it...I know its an inflexible solution since you can't move a dish yourself. But I could always take it back.

It might be worth a shot, but some of the prices on those things do seem to be awfully expensive for a simple folded dipole ... It does look like many of those do come with "everything" you'll probably need to install it(diplexors/etc) ....


Is there much I have to mess with to try this?
From the back of the RCA box, it looks like I just have to incorporate a splitter somewhere in the line? Again, not much of a DIY guy here...

It shouldn't be too difficult - Basically :

1st off -- Hopefully there will be instructions that come with the antenna that tell you what you'll need to do ....

Secondly -- It's not a "splitter", it's a set of diplexors -- One goes outside near the dish(or is actually "built in" to the "clip on" antenna), and diplexes the feed from the satellite and the feed from the antenna onto a coax run ... the other goes near your TV, and seperates the 1).signals from the antenna(this goes to your "ATSC" or "VHF/UHF input/etc) on your receiver, and 2). The signals from the dish (goes to the input on your receiver for the satellite.

Lastly -- Make sure your outdoor connections are properly waterproofed! this is very, very important -- Radio shack has some stuff called "coax seal" which works great, and a roll of it is only a couple of bucks, and will waterproof about 10 outdoor connections ....

I'm not sure if there are any more details of importance that might be specific to your DirecTV installation, perhaps others that are more familar with those could provide better info --- I do believe at least in some, if not most cases, the set of diplexors you will need are actually included with the dish-clip on antenna when you buy it ....