Cincinnati, OH - HDTV [Text View] - Page 21

Nitewatchman

03-18-06, 02:59 PM

I have finally got around to setting up some HD OTA reception gear, and I'm getting pretty good results using an internal Terk HDTVi. I'm less than 8 miles from the towers in Crestview Hills, KY.

I get really good signals for WLWT, WKRC and WCPO, ok for WSTR, but the reception on WXIX is pretty flaky. I noticed from the FCC website that this has a directional antenna that only throws about 50% signal in my direction, and also it's ERP is much less than the other stations.

Unless you are getting some *really* significant attenuation of signals due the the indoor placement of your antenna(which I suppose is somewhat possible) ---- I doubt your problem involves not having enough signal from WXIX-DT at your distance, including taking WXIX-DT's directional antenna pattern into account. I'd suspect you're probably dealing with multipath difficulties, although there are other possibilities as well .... If you are getting that much attenuation with the current indoor placement of your antenna , I'd suggest getting some extra coax, and moving the antenna so that there is only one wall (or window/etc) between it and towers, or trying it from the attic/etc ....

Unless there are terain issues, you should have more than enough signal from all the Cincinnati/N KY stations at your location, even with an indoor antenna -- WCET would probably be the most difficult one, given their directional antenna pattern, depending upon your exact location ....

From most stations if you were using an outdoor antenna, you'd probably have at least 60db(probably more than that) more than you need if you were using a outdoor antenna, figure 20db or so "general rule of thumb"(could be less, could be more) attenuation by having antenna indoors, although again would probably be better if you could get only 1 "wall" between your antenna+ the towers ..... Only about 16db S/N is required for "perfect" DTV reception, which is about 12db less than required for a (generally) "snow free" analog reception ... uncorrectable multipath or "interference"(including intermodulation distortion) is just seen as "noise" by the receiver, and those can greatly increase the "noise level" your receiver has to deal with.

To calulate ERP being sent in your direction given the relative field strengths shown for the stations antenna patterns shown on FCC site(assuming those patterns actually match the "real world" implementation) - make sure to take into account any pattern rotation shown for the pattern as well ) :

Relative field value in your direction SQUARED x station ERP(for relative field value of 1.000)

So ... using 200 degree bearing from WXIX-DT antenna as an example - which is shown as relative field value of .473 ...

(.473x.473) x 227,000 Watts = 50,786 Watts ERP squirted towards 190 degree bearing ... Which is approx. 2x less power than they would be sending if the relative field value was 1.000(227KW ERP) -- OR about the same difference as adding 2 2 way splitters in your feedline -- about 6db less ...

Lets compare that to another station in the area which has a "null" in their antenna pattern to the south ....

Antenna pattern for WCET-DT's current operating permit on FCC site shows a .193 relative field value towards a 200 Degree bearing from their tower ....

(.193x.193) x 215,000 Watts ERP(their current STA operation) = 8,008 Watts ERP --- approx a little less than 5x less power(or about 15db less - much more substantial difference than in any direction for WXIX-DT's directional antenna pattern) than if you were located at a 267 degree bearing from their tower, which is getting 215KW ERP sent in their direction ...

db scale is "logarythimic" -- each 50% decrease or increase in signal from the station equates to about the same difference as adding or removing a 2 way splitter in your feedline -- - or + 3db ... That's all the difference there is between a station running say, 256KW ERP and 512 KW ERP(let's assume they are sending that much in all directions with a non-directional antenna pattern) ... .... which can be a "important" difference if you are in a "far fringe area"(with say a high gain antenna setup), or if you have very significant terrain issues, or the signal attenuation by having antenna indoors is a signifcant enough issue(generally, it probably really shouldn't be from 8 miles away, however) -- For instance, I'm 32 miles from WXIX tower, and I have to add about 50db additional attenution in the feedline to "lower" the signal level enough to just, barely lose DTV reception ... I can also get them fine with a indoor antenna (folded dipole), but only(AFAIK anyway) if I stick the antenna very near a 2nd story south facing window(towards the transmitting antenna) ....

Bluestraw

03-18-06, 03:38 PM

Thanks - very detailed and helpful, much appreciated ! Seems that the signal really shouldn't be the problem then...

It's so odd though that the signal values for WXIX are so much lower than the others (I'm using a HTPC and the signal 'strength' is measured using some internal scale that I doubt it comparable to the real measure). I get frequent complete loss of signal on this, and very strong on the others. I'm not exactly sure about all the causes of multipath, but is there any reason why I would expect that to show up so badly on 1 channel and not on the others? I can't really move the antenna so far since it would involve running a very long cable and siting it by the front door, which wouldn't look so good.... It's currently up on a bookshelf pointing pretty much at the towers, and whatever I do I can't seem to lose the WXIX problem.

Nitewatchman

03-18-06, 04:03 PM

Thanks - very detailed and helpful, much appreciated !

No problem+ you're welcome! That is a big part of why we are all here I think .... To share our knowledge+info on such issues ....

I'm not exactly sure about all the causes of multipath, but is there any reason why I would expect that to show up so badly on 1 channel and not on the others?

Multipath can be *very* frequency specific ... You might have a "ghost free"(ghosts are multipath, directly visable on analog) And, also WXIX's tower location is a little different from the other stations(WPTO-DT "thinkdTV14" transmits from WXIX tower however - Antennaweb info on WPTO digital location is incorrect) ..... Multipath echoes occurs when portions of the signal arrive your antenna via different "paths"(such as portions of the signal reflecting off a nearby water tower, or even something in your house) at different times ...

Again, it can often be *very* frequency specific, but it *might* help you out if you can posistion/place your antenna such that analog 19 is as "ghost free" as possible ... it's hard to say for sure, though ....

Update - almost forgot ----

If you *are* getting a good signal from WPTO-DT -- which remaps to 14.x, but transmits on 28 (right *next* to WXIX-DT on 29 - remaps to 19.x) - Since it is "right" next door, and transmits from the same tower --- that might be a bit of an indication that multipath *may* not be the main "culprit" here ... it is possible for instance that various receiver front-end performance issues could be involved .. nevertheless, no matter what is really causing the problem "exactly", I think the best thing to try to find a solution involves moving the antenna around to try to find a "sweet spot" for reception ... Hopefully, you'll get lucky and you won't have to move it "too much ...

It's currently up on a bookshelf pointing pretty much at the towers, and whatever I do I can't seem to lose the WXIX problem.

Sometimes, even moving it a few inches right or left or up or down can make a big difference ... You need to do it "slowly" however and give the receiver time to "catch up" ... You never know, you might be able to find a good spot in say -- a closet, or somewhere in the Garage if you can find a way to fish the cable through the wall (I'd try it temporarily first before deciding on anything "permanent) ..... Just keep in mind *everything* near the antenna becomes connected to it and a *part* of the antenna, and therefore "effects" the performance of the antenna(generally, one thing that is often effected is that multipath often becomes more of an issue - again, often in a very "frequency"(channel) specific matter) .. Including *you* becoming a part of the antenna when you are adjusting it, BTW ...

More detailed info and some things you can do to "improve" this situation(everything near the antenna effecting it) can be found in the first portion of below link "stuff near antennas"/etc ... :

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/stacking.html

rp2955

03-18-06, 05:19 PM

Hey all, fixed the HDMI audio problem...seemed as though I had to cycle through the resolutions back to 1080i and everything is square. Are any of you using an HDMI cable and watching the tourney on 7 or 12? ARe you seeing intermittant video drops? My screen will refresh for 1-2 seconds, and the feed comes right back. I haven't checked to see if this is something going on in the DirectTV HD channels...just noticed it on CBS most of the day. Wouldnt' think it would be a cable issue??

Bluestraw

03-18-06, 05:19 PM

Thanks (again!). Interestingly enough I used to get a better signal on 28 than 29, but since I moved the antenna it's the other way around (zero signal on 28). However, this current 'sweet spot' is the best for WKRC and WLWT, which were very poor in the previous position.

Seems I will have to make some compromise, unless I can resite the antenna completely. The room where it sits has a couple of PCs, which I'm sure does not help. Also the car in the garage can sometimes cause problems - and from what you say I bet that's one of the main multipath culprits...

One question - how about a long coax on an indoor antenna? Of course a roof antenna has a very long coax, but that starts out with so much more gain. Would the loss I get from the coax possibly outweigh the benefit of moving it?

Nitewatchman

03-18-06, 07:07 PM

One question - how about a long coax on an indoor antenna? Of course a roof antenna has a very long coax, but that starts out with so much more gain. Would the loss I get from the coax possibly outweigh the benefit of moving it?

Probably not at your distance, especially if you can put the antenna in a "sweet spot" where attenuation of signals indoors isn't as significant - such as near window facing the towers, or only one "wall, or just asphalt shingles+wood in the attic between the towers+your antenna ---- Just keep in mind foil backed insulation is not a good thing for multipath - also, certian types of insulated glass are a "multipath" issue as well ...

RG6 should lose only about 4db gain per 100FT on Higher UHF frequencies. If it is "too much", you could compensate/("recover" that loss, so to speak basically) for it by using a preamp near the antenna. Even a inexpensive "distribution" amp would likely do the job, but you'd need to make sure you could plug in it's power supply into a A/C outlet where the amp will be located - otherwise you'd want to look at a "mast mount" type preamp, usually used with outdoor setups and which is powered via the coax+thus the power supply for it can be located about anywhere between the amp and the TV. standard splitters and some other devices placed between the preamp+its power supply would "block" the power via the coax, however, in which case not only wouldn't the amp "work" it's unpowered circuitry would attenuate the signals GREATLY compared to not having an amp in line at all.

Probably a good idea to find one that has a FM trap, and make sure that FM trap is engaged ... CM3042(a "distribution amp") doesn't have a FM trap, otherwise it might be a good choice and last time I checked was about 20 bucks at Lowe's -- Radio shack should have a FM trap for a few bucks you could add along with a CM3042, if needed. With your antenna indoors, you'd probably be OK as far as not "overloading" the amp, but if you do decide to try an amp, probably best to use a amp that is not too "high gain" or prone to being easily overloaded by strong signals ... CM3042 should fit the bill there, as well as being benefical with a ~3 or 4db Noise figure, which is probably 3~7db better noise figure than the front end of your receiver, and that 3 or 4db noise figure for the preamp would set the "noise figure" for your entire system ...

If for some reason adding a "mid-gain"/low noise amp such as CM3042 did cause some "overload" issues for the tuner --- you could add a little extra attenuation in feedline to take care of it, and find the right "balance" ... splitters, attenuators/etc ... Hard to say, but my best guess would be you would probably wouldn't need to do that with a "mid-gain" preamp that can accept a relatively high input level(signals from the antenna) without overloading ....

Let us know how it goes -- hopefully, it won't be too difficult for you to improve your reception !

Bluestraw

03-19-06, 06:02 PM

Jeff,

Again a wealth of helpful information! You definitely gave me the confidence to try various things to improve my reception - just need to get the gear and start 'playing'!

Now I am receiving HD, of course I'm already wanting more!! Do you or anybody know any good contacts at the stations so I could try to ask them:

a) When WCPO will complete their new equipment install (presumably this is what's stopping them going back to DD5.1 now)?

2) If WKRC have any plans on going DD5.1 soon? It's such a shame since the no-multicasting gives great picture!

Sorry if I sound greedy - I guess human nature always leaves us wanting more!!

mburgbacher

03-19-06, 06:32 PM

jimp2244

03-19-06, 06:47 PM

Great source here just found it today! I could not find this issue when searching.

I know I can not get both Cinci and Dayton from one directional antenna (~12 degress and ~216 degress) I was wondering if any of the omni-directional (wineguard ms2000) or multi-directional (antennas direct db8) antennas would help? BTW, I will use it in the attic.

Does anyone have experience with these?

Is there a better way? I don't want to use a switch due to HD Tivo.

It depends on where you are located... it might work. Where are you located?

Edit (addition): I see you are in Mason, sorry for missing that. It might be a bit difficult to get the Dayton stations from there but you could try it and see.

Edit (another addition): If you wanted to be really fancy you could probably use two directional antennas and use a combiner/amplifer that would let you have one antenna pointed at Cincinnati and one pointed at Dayton. You might get multipath issues with this though. A trap device (to "block out" particular channels (Dayton channels on the Cincinnati antenna and vice-versa) might help with this. There is decent information on this here:

http://www.tvantenna.com/support/tutorials/combining.html

Overall, if I were you I would buy an omni and pre-amp and see what kind of results you get (with and without the pre-amp). If it's not good enough, take it back. Then, you could attempt the more complicated solution of two directional antennas. By the way, you probably wouldn't need very "big" directictional antennas from your location. The $40 Radio Shack VU-75 XR (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103084&cp=&kw=tv+antenna&parentPage=search) would be a good choice to start with.

Nitewatchman

03-19-06, 07:22 PM

Bluestraw,

You could call either station during business hours and ask to be transferred to engineering --- also, I know WKRC in the past has usually responded to the contact info on their website, I see WCPO has one now as well. For WKRC, you could also try PM'ing the WKRC engineer's who sometimes post here : WebhopperWeasel or XmtrMan ....

WCPO feedback forum+phone numbers :

http://wcpo.scripps.com/helpdesk/contactus.html

WKRC feedback forum and phone numbers/addresses are here :

http://www.wkrc.com/contactus/

BTW, IF you can detirmine any station is "missing" an HD feed they are "supposed" to be airing -- during "non-business hours" best bet is to call their Newsroom # and ask nicely if they'd pass along the message to master control to please switch to HD feed ....

digital only

03-19-06, 08:33 PM

I'm having good luck with 2 antenna's coupled together pointing at cincy and dayton from Liberty twp. try it. worst case it doesn't work.[

QUOTE=jimp2244]It depends on where you are located... it might work. Where are you located?

Edit (addition): I see you are in Mason, sorry for missing that. It might be a bit difficult to get the Dayton stations from there but you could try it and see.

Edit (another addition): If you wanted to be really fancy you could probably use two directional antennas and use a combiner/amplifer that would let you have one antenna pointed at Cincinnati and one pointed at Dayton. You might get multipath issues with this though. A trap device (to "block out" particular channels (Dayton channels on the Cincinnati antenna and vice-versa) might help with this. There is decent information on this here:

http://www.tvantenna.com/support/tutorials/combining.html

Overall, if I were you I would buy an omni and pre-amp and see what kind of results you get (with and without the pre-amp). If it's not good enough, take it back. Then, you could attempt the more complicated solution of two directional antennas. By the way, you probably wouldn't need very "big" directictional antennas from your location. The $40 Radio Shack VU-75 XR (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103084&cp=&kw=tv+antenna&parentPage=search) would be a good choice to start with.[/QUOTE]

jim tressler

03-19-06, 08:46 PM

you can try the channel master jointenna... I will be trying this soon - I think

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/joiners.htm

just keep in mind.. wkrc has asked to go back to ch 12 after the analog cutoff

jim

Nitewatchman

03-19-06, 08:53 PM

Good luck with that Jim. Concerning the jointennas and how they work, You might want to look at Multiple Antennas For HDTV? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=654628&page=1)

Think that would also be a good thread for mburgbacher, or anyone else interested in the issues involved with combining seperate antennas together onto same feedline and aiming them in different directions, and/or some of the issues involved with using "jointennas" as bandpass filters+channel traps/etc.

dangerousdavid

03-19-06, 09:57 PM

Hey guys...another newbie question. I got an HDMI cable for my HD receiver today from Direc TV (because I needed the component input for my DVD player). I am not getting any sound, just video? My TV is set to Auto for Digital audio...any suggestions? It is supposed to have both audio and video, correct?
Try switching to the analog instead of digital. I have 2 hd sets. the pioneer model does not pick up the digital audio with the exception of a few channels when set to digital. My Phillips picks them all up. If I run the digital ausio through my reciever it works great. Not sure what the difference is

Bluestraw

03-20-06, 10:24 AM

Bluestraw,

You could call either station during business hours and ask to be transferred to engineering --- also, I know WKRC in the past has usually responded to the contact info on their website, I see WCPO has one now as well. For WKRC, you could also try PM'ing the WKRC engineer's who sometimes post here : WebhopperWeasel or XmtrMan ....

In case anybody's interested - WKRC are 'aiming for end-2006' for DD5.1.

Spoke to WCPO - they say 'no date set for DD5.1, they were having equipment issues and have no idea'. The guy I spoke to seemed pretty 'disinterested' to be honest. Any ideas where I could escalate this to?

ScottA

03-20-06, 10:42 AM

I tuned in to watch Universal HD on TimeWarner cable last night and found it was gone. I put the receiver in DIAG mode and was able to select the channel (the name and program showed in the banner) but only a dark screen and no sound.

I only tune in once a week to watch Battlestar Galactica in HD so it probably disappeared sometime this week. I know TWC turned it on for the Olympics and anything after that was icing on the cake. I was hoping they would keep it as part of the HD Tier. Anyone got any info on this?

// Scott A

Nitewatchman

03-20-06, 10:57 AM

In case anybody's interested - WKRC are 'aiming for end-2006' for DD5.1.

Spoke to WCPO - they say 'no date set for DD5.1, they were having equipment issues and have no idea'. The guy I spoke to seemed pretty 'disinterested' to be honest. Any ideas where I could escalate this to?

Thanks for the updates. Follows is what it says about this on WCPO digital website (http://www.wcpodt.com/)(note that's a different website than their "main" website for the analog station), :

5.1 Audio Now Available!

As of 11/07/05, WCPO-DT is now broadcasting in 5.1 Dolby Surround Sound! Many but not all ABC shows will be available in this audio format. Please let us know what you think.

We are also planning an upgrade in the first half of the year that will enable our control room to automatically switch to 5.1 audio whenever it is present. (Currently, it's a manual process.)

--------------------

Note : At the digital station's website under the DD 5.1 section, it lists an email address for one of their engineers(their Chief Engineer, Tom Talley if I recall correctly), so you might want to try that if you want more info/etc ...

Bluestraw

03-20-06, 12:25 PM

Thanks - I found that at about the same time as you!

I did email Tom, and quickly received a very nice reply. The new ATSC encoder is already installed and working well, and he plans to fully introduce 5.1 by 'late spring', preceded by some experiments in a month or so. So looks like they're on the right track :)

slimm

03-20-06, 12:27 PM

rlp2955

03-23-06, 12:15 PM

Just when you think it can't get any worse...

So I got the OTA antenna installed this morning from DirecTV...and still don't get the ABC channels and now don't get FOX w/o pixelation. The NBC channel in Cincy is coming in at 48% antenna strength...and he tried moving it around on the roof and that was the best he could do. I think my indoor antenna was better than that (Teak HDTVi)!!! He said the antennas DirecTV installs aren't very good...he told me to get a Wineguard? that is amplified and install it myself since everything is now setup for it.

The one they put on the roof looks like a grill plate...looks cheap. I am about ready to give up and wait till the locals come in through the dish.

jim tressler

03-23-06, 12:42 PM

rlp - is this it?

http://www.tvantenna.com/products/tvreception/tvantennas/winegard/sensar.html

rlp2955

03-23-06, 01:28 PM

No, this one looks a helluva lot nicer than the one they put on my roof. This is a square looking thing that literally looks like a metal grill plate...its not "solid" through the middle. And I would assume it is not a Winegard since the installer told me he had a Winegard that was amplified at his home and it worked a lot better.

Anyway, I called TNT pictures over lunch and explained to them the situation. He said those antennas are crap and can almost guarantee me if they put a large one in my attic they will get all major stations at 90+ strength. Of course for a price..$215 which includes antenna, installation, cabling, etc. They said they would refund my money if they can't do better than what is up there.

So, this is my last ditch effort. They are coming out next Thursday. For the time being I will probably just keep using the Terk Indoor because I can get Fox to come in better than using the outside antenna. I have 30 days to return so I should still be good.

I wouldn't bother with any of this if DirecTV could give me a straight answer on when the local markets in HD will be available on the dish. It isn't looking like it is anytime soon...

jim tressler

03-23-06, 01:36 PM

does it look like this?

http://www.channelmaster.com/images/3021_4221.jpg

rlp2955

03-23-06, 02:07 PM

yes, but much much smaller...not much bigger in height than a satellite dish...

jim tressler

03-23-06, 02:15 PM

thats what I have - along with the sensar - and they both work flawless for me... Since you are in willow pond I would expect the same.. I picked up the channel master for $35

is it something like this? http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB2_Indoor_antenna.html -

if so.. just get yourself the channel master - since its already wired up, sounds like an easy install.. there is also a guy who has a corner lot on willow pond and wheeping willow that has one mounted on his roof

rlp2955

03-23-06, 02:48 PM

that is exactly what it is...the DB2 link you sent is it.

That channel master looks huge??? I don't want something that big hanging on my roof...so if it means bigger goes in the attic, so be it.

What about the Winegard Squareshooter?
http://www.winegard.com/offair/squareshooter.htm

If I can find something more high powered to replace the DB2 thats amplified and around the same size, no problem doing it myself (to save some $). Not sure of where local retailers are for some of these antennas, however.

What is the highest powered, smallest OTA antenna in the market?

jim tressler

03-23-06, 03:07 PM

the channelmaster I have is 3 feet tall and 2 feet wide (give or take) - not that big - the square shooter has mixed results.. keep in mind - most of these new hi-tech antennas are oftentimes worse performers than the good old antennas that have been around for ever..

http://www.channelmaster.com/pages/TVS/UHFAnts.htm - I have the 3021/4221 - 4-Bay

36" tall / 20" wide and you really cant see it as it blends in nicely.

I ordered mine from these fine folks - got it in 2 days
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4221.htm

rlp2955

03-23-06, 03:21 PM

Jim, I should just have you come down to my house for 5 minutes so I can show you quickly my setup/signal strength/etc....would you be willing to do that? You around tonight?

Here is my concern: spending money on another antenna that is relatively the same size as what they put up today. I am literally getting 0% signal strength for ABC...and weak 46% on NBC. If you only spent 30 bones on the channel master, I can't imagine it being much better for me that what is already up there???

If I have to go with something larger in the attic, I am almost willing to do that and swallow the cost.

RitchieRich

03-23-06, 06:32 PM

Hard to believe that Time Warner Cincinnati did not make arrangements to broadcast thonight's UC NIT game.

zekyl

03-24-06, 11:50 AM

Yea, I read an article on Cincinnati.com that TWC didn't have an agreement. I was a little frustrated about it. They claim they are working on it, but the say these things take time. I am sure they do, but it just seems TWC should be working on getting more HD content for us.

I can't wait until IPTV comes around from CBT, that should hopfully drive some more competition.

Nitewatchman

03-24-06, 02:28 PM

Here is my concern: spending money on another antenna that is relatively the same size as what they put up today.

Concerning the UHF digital stations(such as WLWT-DT) --- I would guess the problem may not be so much the antenna as it is the way they may have installed it --- I think it sounds like it is possible they may not have done some things "properly". And, it's not just the antenna that may be important here, the feedline is important as well. For instance I have been doing some reading, and evidently diplexing sat+OTA onto the same feedline doesn't work with the newer DirecTV installs for HD locals.

If you try it with analog OTA reception, that should tell you a lot. For instance, From your location and with a properly installed DB2 on your roof, I'd think you really should be getting clear, pretty much "snow free" results from cincinnati UHF analogs 19,25,36,38,48,54 and 64 ... It might be OK if for instance 25,36 are a little snowy as they are low power ....

Antennasdirect DB2 (not channel master) is a fine UHF antenna - not the best, but certianly a better UHF antenna than the UHF performance of the Winegard "Sensar" .... DB2 is a 2 bay bowtie, very similar to the CM4221 Jim is using, except it uses 2 UHF bowties instead of 4. It is NOT a VHF antenna, WCPO-DT (ABC HD Cincinnati) Transmits on VHF channel 10, and it looks like WKRC-DT will move to VHF 12 after analog shut off. That being said, it is certianly sometimes(but not allways) possible to receive "good enough" VHF signals from your distance with a UHF only antenna -- nevertheless, generally speaking, If it's the DB2 or pretty much any other UHF only antenna, I think they made a poor choice for an antenna to use for your location to begin with, since VHF signals are important in your case as well. You can find a detailed description of the DB2 here :

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DB2.html

You can find some detailed comparisions of antennas(including DB2) at following link. Especially note the gain chart near bottom of page for using the DB2, and other UHF antennas on VHF -- DB2 shows much worse VHF performance than a set of rabbit ears - CM4228(8 Bay bowtie) is one of the very few UHF antennas out there which offers quite a bit of gain on VHF Hi-band(channel 7-13) :

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

jim tressler

03-24-06, 02:52 PM

sorry rlp - I was a uc last night so I was out early.. I might be able to stop by this weekend.. pm me your address. Nitewatchman was right.. did they combine the line from the antenna with the directv line coming off of the dish?? with the at-9 dish, you can no longer diplex.

jim

Jim, I should just have you come down to my house for 5 minutes so I can show you quickly my setup/signal strength/etc....would you be willing to do that? You around tonight?

Here is my concern: spending money on another antenna that is relatively the same size as what they put up today. I am literally getting 0% signal strength for ABC...and weak 46% on NBC. If you only spent 30 bones on the channel master, I can't imagine it being much better for me that what is already up there???

If I have to go with something larger in the attic, I am almost willing to do that and swallow the cost.

Bluestraw

03-25-06, 11:17 AM

Probably not at your distance, especially if you can put the antenna in a "sweet spot" where attenuation of signals indoors isn't as significant - such as near window facing the towers, or only one "wall, or just asphalt shingles+wood in the attic between the towers+your antenna ---- Just keep in mind foil backed insulation is not a good thing for multipath - also, certian types of insulated glass are a "multipath" issue as well ...

Let us know how it goes -- hopefully, it won't be too difficult for you to improve your reception !

Thanks for all the help - turns out I found a 'sweetspot' just a few feet away from the original location - still pointing directly 'through' the wall (and then through the garage!) just further along with an extension cord. I'm now getting good reception on the 4 major nets, which is what I wanted :)

Just goes to show, you don't need to be too fancy with the antenna - simple Terk HDTVi indoors and no dropouts on my signal! FYI I am in KY, about 8 miles SSW of the towers.

rlp2955

03-25-06, 10:07 PM

Yes, I see a diplexer behind my TV. Having no problems getting CBS tonight for the NCAA tourney. Fox comes and goes, NBC/CBS is good, no ABC. Nitewatchman...understand what you are saying about the VHF signal for WCPO. Makes sense I wouldn't get that if my antenna is only UHF...however, I had the Terk HDTVi before and still wasn't picking up any signal indoors for that channel. That is a UHF/VHF antenna, correct?

I checked my analog reception tonight...it is very snowy on 9 and 22...best reception I get is Fox.

The new dish I had installed was the 5 LNB ka/ku...if diplexing doesnt work, how would I get any of these OTA signals? I definitely don't have as "strong" a signal with the DB2 as I did with the Terk indoors.

Jim, I PM'd you my number...give me a ring if you get a chance. Definitely could use your guidance based on my setup.

You guys are all great...thanks for all the input and advice. Don't want to waste 200 bucks later this week if I don't have to.

spikor

03-25-06, 10:48 PM

How can you watch HDTV Channels on your Computer? I was just wondering? I have a Sony Vaio PCV-RZ24G So I pulled out my Computer Tower and looked at the back of it I have these connections a VHF/UHF Coaxial Connection a s-Video Input and Output with Audio Inputs and Outputs and a DVI Connection Port. I thought DO I ? Buy a HDTV Converter Box and mount it near my Computer and Split my Coaxial Wire from my TV one to my TV and one to my HDTV Converter Box and go out of the Converter Box and A: to the VHF/UHF Coaial Input ? B: Out of the Converter Box and to S-Video Inputs ? Or C: Out of the HDTV Converter Box to the DVI Input Using a HDMI to DVI Input Cable? Or is there an easier way maybe switching out or adding another Card on an expansion port (An empty slot) and going that way? Will going this way do I still need a HDTV Converter Box or does this Bypass it? I am not to much Computer Savy Does anyone know how to go this Route or Knowledgeable?

digital only

03-26-06, 09:29 AM

I have an ATI HD wonder card and watch HDTV on my pc. The software stinks though, so I would recomment another software package such as beyond tv or windows media center. I can watch full 1080I but can only record at DVD quality (and burn to dvd)

How can you watch HDTV Channels on your Computer? I was just wondering? I have a Sony Vaio PCV-RZ24G So I pulled out my Computer Tower and looked at the back of it I have these connections a VHF/UHF Coaxial Connection a s-Video Input and Output with Audio Inputs and Outputs and a DVI Connection Port. I thought DO I ? Buy a HDTV Converter Box and mount it near my Computer and Split my Coaxial Wire from my TV one to my TV and one to my HDTV Converter Box and go out of the Converter Box and A: to the VHF/UHF Coaial Input ? B: Out of the Converter Box and to S-Video Inputs ? Or C: Out of the HDTV Converter Box to the DVI Input Using a HDMI to DVI Input Cable? Or is there an easier way maybe switching out or adding another Card on an expansion port (An empty slot) and going that way? Will going this way do I still need a HDTV Converter Box or does this Bypass it? I am not to much Computer Savy Does anyone know how to go this Route or Knowledgeable?

Nitewatchman

03-26-06, 12:42 PM

however, I had the Terk HDTVi before and still wasn't picking up any signal indoors for that channel. That is a UHF/VHF antenna, correct?

Yes. However reception is often problematical from indoors for various reasons. As one example, electrical interference from household appliances can be a issue on VHF(usually moreso the lower VHF channels 2-6 however) with VHF antenna indoors. Of course, we also don't know yet if your receiver is working properly with digital VHF ... I wouldn't think it likely there's something wrong with it, but until you can get it "to work" with say, WCPO-DT to see for sure, we don't know .....

if diplexing doesnt work, how would I get any of these OTA signals?

If diplexing doesn't work with your dish install --- You need to run a seperate feedline(coax) from your receiver to your antenna. You may also need to use a different antenna, one that is VHF as well as UHF(or add a second antenna for VHF only+use a VHF/UHF joiner to combine them together onto same feedline).

Don't want to waste 200 bucks later this week if I don't have to.

Hopefully Jim will be able to help you out and with a lot of luck, perhaps you might get lucky+the DB2 might pick up enough signal from Cincinnati ABC on VHF even though it's a UHF only antenna with poor VHF performance. It's possible, if the signal is strong enough --- which is possible at your distance with the antenna outdoors. Or, you could try aiming the antenna at Dayton for the Dayton HD stations - They are all on UHF.

Although at the very least it sounds like you're probably going to have to put in a new coax run to your antenna. Along with that, you're probably going to want to properly ground the coax run(hopefully the DirecTV installer "properly" grounded everything else, although that's hoping for a lot -- The mast - for your dish AND antenna if they are seperate) and all the coax runs should be properly grounded, and should also be properly bonded to your main A/C service ground. You'd also want to make sure the antenna is aimed properly, and a 300ohm~75ohm matching transformer(balun) is installed(I think the DB2 would need one of those, should have come with the antenna). Most antennas are 300 ohm(balanced) impedance, and they need a balun for impedance matching to 75 Ohm unbalanced coax. You can't just strip coax and "hook it up" to an antenna's 300 ohm terminals and have it work "right", let's hope your direcTV installer used the balun ... You'd think they would have known better than that, but then again, Who knows .... Also, in addition to proper aiming of antenna, finding a "good spot" for reception to mount the antenna is also sometimes of importance, even outdoors ....

I certianly understand your POV concerning spending more $ on it given what you've went through so far .... However, If you don't want to DIY, you still might need to call the pro OTA installer(for example for the new coax run or for a VHF+UHF antenna/etc. ) It shouldn't be a waste if they can get you set up properly, believe around 200 bucks is what you'd pay for a little over 3 years of locals via satellite .... The antenna, even if installed outdoors(properly) should last a lot longer than that -- probably 20~30 years or more ....

IMO, 200 bucks is really very reasonable for a good *pro* OTA install by someone that knows what they are doing, especially if they can give you some sort of guarentee of reception. They can probably give you more of a guarentee if you have them install the antenna oudoors, and I'd certianly recommend putting it outdoors if at all possible -- have them add a rotor if you want reception of both Dayton and Cincinnati. Certianly, I would definitely "hold them" to any reception "guarentee" they offer ....

If you add up the cost of the tools(such as crimper for the F connectors if you don't have one), Coax, for an outdoor install, Mast, ground blocks/ground wire(ground rods in some cases) for proper grounding of Mast+the coax runs and antenna --- A DIY install(in some cases even an attic install) can easily run close to $200, the biggest single cost usually being the antenna(or rotor if you'd want both Dayton+Cincinnati reception) .... Also, a knowledable+experienced Pro OTA installer should have access to tools and equipment to better ensure reliable reception(such as say, concerning placement of antenna in a "sweet spot" for reception) than does the DIY'er ...

rlp2955

03-26-06, 04:08 PM

Nitewatchman

03-26-06, 06:12 PM

Jeff, what I meant when I said "if diplex doesn't work, how I am I getting OTA"...what I meant is that my current setup with the 5 LBN is diplexed...so if these new dishes don't support that, how am I currently receiving these signals? Looks like it does in fact work???

It's often possible to get some sort of OTA signals with just a piece of wire hooked up to your receiver as an antenna. So, Just the coax could be acting a bit like an antenna, just as any old coathanger would. From what you have described that you've been experiencing vs. your indoor antenna, that sounds about like the sort of reception results you are getting, and analog 19+22, as well as some sort of signal from (digital) WKRC-DT(CBS)/WLWT-DT(NBC) would probably be among the most likely signals you'd get the best results from with just a piece of wire(or something very similiar) as an antenna, as they are among the strongest+easiest to receive signals in the area, and they also transmit on frequencies(channels) that would probably work best with a "coathanger" or piece of wire as an antenna .........

Bottom line is, If the diplexing is working properly AND the antenna is properly installed outdoors(such as on roof) AND it is properly aimed : from your distance I'd think you really should be getting clear signals from all the Cincinnati UHF analog stations(19,25,36,38,48,54,64 - again don't worry if 25 or 36 are a little snowy), as I mentioned earlier. For that matter, you should be getting all the Cincinnati area UHF digital/HD stations as well.

Search the following thread for "diplex" for more info :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6673671&highlight=diplex#post6673671

Here's another related thread :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=648619&highlight=diplex

You'll also find much more info on this if you search the hardware area at AVS for "diplex" .....

jimp2244

03-26-06, 07:22 PM

I have an ATI HD wonder card and watch HDTV on my pc. The software stinks though, so I would recomment another software package such as beyond tv or windows media center. I can watch full 1080I but can only record at DVD quality (and burn to dvd)

The software does stink. However their newest update to the MultiMedia Center software is actually quite good. DTV and TV are finally combined into one application, and I have noticed loads of other improvements. It's still not perfect (will crash from time to time, but certainly not unbearable) but I'm quite pleased with it. Also as I mentioned a few pages back, the new drivers/software actually eliminated a lot of my reception problems as well. I also don't get the stuttering or clicking in the audio that I used to sometimes get, and the 1 second blank screen every 10 minutes or so with "1080i" or "720p" as if it was re-configuring itself has been eliminated.

Also, I record in pure native HDTV mpeg2 and it works very well. Once it's recorded you can export to dvd mpeg2, mpeg4, or whatever other format you want. Right now I'm extremely happy with the setup and the only thing I'm missing that I wish I had is ESPN/ESPN2 HD.

I also read in an HDTV wonder thread here on AVS Forum about a program called orb. Check out www.orb.com. It's really cool. I can stream the HD feeds to any computer (even at work ;) ). Really nice. I suggest you check it out.

jim tressler

03-26-06, 08:08 PM

rlp - sorry man, I have had a busy day.. out the door at 7:30am and I just got back. The diplexing probably works becasue you are not getting all thethe ka band satelite from directv yet becaue they have all not lit up yet.. If you are diplexed, that could be the problem. Lets shoot for one day this week.

jim

Jeff, what I meant when I said "if diplex doesn't work, how I am I getting OTA"...what I meant is that my current setup with the 5 LBN is diplexed...so if these new dishes don't support that, how am I currently receiving these signals? Looks like it does in fact work???

rlp2955

03-27-06, 08:15 AM

No problem...this week is going to be bad for me as I have offsite meetings all week so won't be around much in the evenings. TNT is scheduled to come out Thursday afternoon (taking a half day off work) to set me up so I guess I will just see what they have to say. I would assume they will see this setup and know what to do regarding the new dish...

Another question I have: I also have a DirecTV Tivo in my basement (not HD, yet). If they go ahead and run seperate coax down to my HDTV on the first floor from the attic, will they also have to run seperate lines down to the basement as well? Or will these coax lines feed into each other at some point in the house? I just want to make sure I know what to tell these guys when they come out. Right now I have two coax lines from my dish to the Tivo.

I called Satellite Antenna late Friday to get a quote from them but didn't hear back.

rlp2955

03-28-06, 08:33 AM

So I called Satellite Antenna and let's just say they won't be getting my business. He acted like I was a nuisance when I called...told him the situation with my reception. Immediately tells me that Maineville is a hard area to get a signal. I explain to him I know others in my area have no issues...tells me they would charge 45 bucks to do a service call. I kept asking about particulars about their equipment, etc. and continued to get the brush off.

So, TNT is coming out Thursday afternoon...talked to them again yesterday. It sounds like they use fairly large antennas (when I asked him what they look like his quote "you remember the old antennas you used to see beside houses"). Thus the reason I am having them put it in the attic. He said they have never had a customer who didn't get all 4 major networks when they were done. No reception, I dont pay them. I think they do more work with Dish Network (as he keeps telling me about the wonders of the HD programming on Dish). So we shall see...not so much worried about the antenna as I am how they will get the coax strung...but they sound like they know what they are doing. I am going to ask if they can at least attempt to get a signal from the roof first...maybe just moving that DB2 a bit higher could do the trick.

Will keep you guys posted.

jim tressler

03-28-06, 09:26 AM

for the hd antenna - you can split it - keep in mind every time you split it you lose signal strenght.. so you may need to add an amp.. if its a directv line - then it needs to come directly from the multi switch.. Make sure the TNT picture gaurentee goes beyond the install day - ie.. things may be fine when they are there.. but 2 days later things go to hell in a handbasket!!

No problem...this week is going to be bad for me as I have offsite meetings all week so won't be around much in the evenings. TNT is scheduled to come out Thursday afternoon (taking a half day off work) to set me up so I guess I will just see what they have to say. I would assume they will see this setup and know what to do regarding the new dish...

Another question I have: I also have a DirecTV Tivo in my basement (not HD, yet). If they go ahead and run seperate coax down to my HDTV on the first floor from the attic, will they also have to run seperate lines down to the basement as well? Or will these coax lines feed into each other at some point in the house? I just want to make sure I know what to tell these guys when they come out. Right now I have two coax lines from my dish to the Tivo.

I called Satellite Antenna late Friday to get a quote from them but didn't hear back.

jim tressler

03-28-06, 09:30 AM

They are full of crap.. our subdivision sits high in Warren County - our reception is fantastic for both Dayton and Cincinnati... Plus you are not in Maineville - you are in Hamilton Township - 80 - 100 foot elevation difference..

So I called Satellite Antenna and let's just say they won't be getting my business. He acted like I was a nuisance when I called...told him the situation with my reception. Immediately tells me that Maineville is a hard area to get a signal. I explain to him I know others in my area have no issues...tells me they would charge 45 bucks to do a service call. I kept asking about particulars about their equipment, etc. and continued to get the brush off.

So, TNT is coming out Thursday afternoon...talked to them again yesterday. It sounds like they use fairly large antennas (when I asked him what they look like his quote "you remember the old antennas you used to see beside houses"). Thus the reason I am having them put it in the attic. He said they have never had a customer who didn't get all 4 major networks when they were done. No reception, I dont pay them. I think they do more work with Dish Network (as he keeps telling me about the wonders of the HD programming on Dish). So we shall see...not so much worried about the antenna as I am how they will get the coax strung...but they sound like they know what they are doing. I am going to ask if they can at least attempt to get a signal from the roof first...maybe just moving that DB2 a bit higher could do the trick.

Will keep you guys posted.

jim tressler

03-28-06, 10:13 AM

this chaps my a@@

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7384585&&#post7384585

paying for something thats free!!

Nitewatchman

03-28-06, 12:55 PM

It sounds like they use fairly large antennas (when I asked him what they look like his quote "you remember the old antennas you used to see beside houses"). Thus the reason I am having them put it in the attic.

IMO, Your best bet is to have them put it outside. They can work indoors sometimes, but putting antenna indoors(including in attic) greatly attenuates signals, and usually greatly increases difficulties with multipath+interference. I also think On UHF, a DB2 outside(properly installed) would be a better choice than ANY UHF antenna inside(including in the attic).

The typical small~medium sized VHF/UHF combo TV antenna is about 8feet wide(only at it's widest point - meaning a couple of it's "rods" will be 8~9ft long) by about 6 feet long, and about 1~2 feet "high" - which is really pretty small for a TV antenna. The "design" of the typical VHF/UHF combo TV antenna hasn't changed much in ~40 years, and the reason why we still put them on top of our houses is because they still work VERY well ..... You can't change the laws of physics, just because a signal is modulated a little differently doesn't mean the antenna you need to receive the signal is going to be any different .... The effective antenna designs from 30 years ago are *still* the effective antenna designs of today - in other words - the ones that work well.

We are covering a wide range of frequencies/wavelengths here on VHF/UHF, and therefore there needs to be a bunch of different "rods" of various lengths on such VHF/UHF combo antennas for them to actually work very well ...

I'd think This antenna(winegard PR7010) in picture at link below on your roof would be a good choice (It's about 6.5 feet long, longest element is about 8 feet long, it's about 1 Foot "high" at most), I expect TNT Pictures may recommend this, or something slightly larger such as winegard PR7015 (PDF reader is required for link) :

http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/pr-7010.pdf

If you don't have acrobat reader --- here's a similarly sized small
VHF/UHF combo antenna from Radio Shack (RS VU-75) :

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103084&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032205&parentPage=family

----------------------------------------------

All that being said, the "largest" parts(the rods on them that are about 7~9 feet long at the "back" of the antenna) of such VHF/UHF combo antennas are for reception of VHF channels 2-6 .... We don't currently have any digital stations on channel 2-6(54~88MHZ) in this area, and it looks like there probably won't be any after analog shut off, either. We will have VHF stations on VHF channel 10(as it is currently) and 12 after analog shut off.

UHF(470~806MHZ) has much shorter wavelengths than VHF, therefore a UHF antenna that works well can be much smaller. A VHF Hi-Band only(for VHF channels 7-13 - 174~216MHZ) antenna is also much smaller than an antenna which is designed for channel 2-6, or for all VHF channels 2-13.

Our current problem with getting a "smaller antenna" which works well for reception of all the VHF+UHF digital stations in Cincinnati is, there are currently really NO good VHF/UHF antennas out there which are designed for reception of JUST VHF-HI(channels 7-13) and UHF (channel 14-69), without the "larger" part of antenna which is needed for channels 2-6 included as well.

Hopefully that will change soon, as at this point at least it appears there may end up being very few if any digital stations on Channel 2-6 anywhere in U.S. Although as it stands right now, channel 2-51 will be used for DTV after analog shut off ---It might even be somewhat of a possibility FCC may reallocate channels 2-6 for other uses besides TV after analog shut off ...

We do of course have analogs on channel 2+5 in Dayton+Cincinnati currently, therefore a VHF/UHF combo antenna such as PR7010 mentioned above is still a good choice for most folks for our area. Such a VHF/UHF combo antenna that covers channel 2-6 also usually provides excellent FM broadcast band reception as well.

However, if you wanted a smaller outdoor antenna solution for just the digital stations -- The way to go currently would probably be to use seperate UHF, and VHF-HI band antennas, combining them on the same feedline with a VHF/UHF joiner such as CM #0549(RS has one as well, not sure of the part #). If you are in a strong signal area without too much multipath difficulties, a DB2 for UHF, combined with a winegard Sensar or a CM3010 (stealthtenna) used only for VHF would probably do the trick. However, in your location at times with such a "bidirectional" pair of outdoor rabbit ears as the Sensar or CM3010 for VHF, until analog shut off WBNS 10 Columbus may occasionally come in off the "back side" of antenna and cause some interference to WCPO-DT 10. In which case, a really good HI-VHF antenna to use with your UHF antenna would be a Winegard YA-6713(at link below) -- this is a pretty small(but very effective) VHF-HI antenna at about 5foot long by 3 feet wide by about 1 inch "tall" .... :

http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/ya-6713.pdf

I am going to ask if they can at least attempt to get a signal from the roof first...maybe just moving that DB2 a bit higher could do the trick.

That sounds like a great idea to try for UHF(chances are probably good that you'll need a VHF antenna for WCPO-DT however,) BUT one problem you may run into there might be that most professional antenna installers are probably going to want to use *their* antennas .....

If having the smallest outdoor antenna that will *work* is an important issue for you -- again, a DB2(UHF) + a Winegard YA-6713(VHF-HI) would probably be a good choice for you, but there are other possibilities as well ... Most Pro antenna installers do use Winegard's antennas(they are usually a little more expensive, but they are also, very well built antennas) you can look at their prostar UHF antennas here (I don't know of course which models TNT pictures stocks or are willing to "use") :

http://www.winegard.com/offair/prostar1000uhf.htm#all

Most of their prostar VHF TV antennas are here :

http://www.winegard.com/offair/prostar1000vhffmyagi.htm

Click on the model # at bottom of page for info(in PDF format) for detailed info+pic on each model. For instance, the PR9012 is their smallest UHF antenna - I'd definetely recommend the DB2 over it as the PR9012 is *really* really small and not as good an antenna as the DB2 :

http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/pr-9012.pdf

The PR9014 Yagi, ( http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/pr-9014.pdf ) or PR9016 corner reflectors ( http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/pr-9016.pdf ) Might be OK, although I'd probably still go with the DB2 over those, or, even better a 4-bay bowtie such as Winegard PR4400 ( http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/pr-4400.pdf ) .

You can look at other antenna lines/models they have via the "blue" menu on the left sidebar at winegard's main off air antenna page. (http://www.winegard.com/offair/offairmain.htm )... the "platinum HD" line are generally more expensive line of antennas than the "prostar" models(both the prostar+platinum HD line are excellent antennas however), the "sensar" and "sharpshooter"/etc. are more along the lines of "pretty" antennas that don't really work very well --- although again, in strong signal areas, and especially for VHF, any outdoor "coathangar" can sometimes do the job ...

rlp2955

03-28-06, 01:27 PM

Nitewatchman

03-28-06, 01:28 PM

paying for something thats free!!

I don't see anything wrong with it. Perhaps their ever increasing monthly Pay-TV bills will finally get to a point where it will persuade more folks to wise up and put that antenna back up on the roof ....

As long as large numbers of people would rather pay for the distribution of programming from the broadcast stations/nets via their cable or satellite provider rather than put an antenna on their roof and receive it for free, why should broadcasters(say CBS) be any different than say, ESPN?

It's one thing to receive it for "free" via your antenna(you do of course pay for it when you purchase products which are advertised "ON TV" - you just pay for it more when you're watching ads on ESPN+paying a subscription fee to boot), quite another for the station to give away to the rights "for free" to other companies to allow them to redistribute the programming to paying customers via cable or satellite .....

Nitewatchman

03-28-06, 02:08 PM

so Jim if I understand you correctly...if TNT goes ahead and runs a direct coax from the antenna to my ATSC port on the back of my HDTV in the living room, they could then run another seperate line from the antenna to my HD Tivo in the basement? I am assuming the HD Tivo's through DirecTV have an antenna port seperate from the two lines from the dish. Or would they cut into one of the dish lines to diplex?

I just want to make sure I know what to tell these guys for my current as well as future setup (I am hearing DirecTV is coming out with a new HD Tivo soon...so far too much $$$ for me right now.

Yes, good idea to tell them what all you are going to hook up to antenna in the future .....

Not to butt in here, but in case Jim's busy currently ---- They'd add a splitter(or distribution amp) -- So, you'd have a single coax feed coming from antenna to (ideally) the closest place "between" your basement+living room setup where they would install a 2 way splitter - one run from the splitter goes to your basement, the other run to your living room. As Jim said, if the signal loss is too great from your feedline+splitting, you'd probably want to add a preamp to recover those losses.

There shouldn't be any "diplexing" going on where the OTA antenna is concerned ... The lines from the dish to the sat receivers would be completely seperate from the antenna line, and as Jim said, for multiple receivers for the feeds from the dish/satellite, it would have to come from your multiswitch.

The OTA antenna input (such as the "ATSC input" on your current HD receiver) is Allways going to be seperate from the "satellite" input on any satellite receiver that also has a OTA tuner in it. Most SD satellite receivers have NO OTA tuner in them at all, and you couldn't even use OTA or an OTA antenna with those -- other than in some cases "passing signals" through from an antenna to the tuner inside a TV set when you are using a receiver's RF output and tuning your TV to channel 3 to use the sat receiver. I don't know anything about the SD Tivos, and whether or not they have NTSC analog OTA tuners in them.

Also, keep in mind your OTA antenna can be used with any OTA tuner, analog or digital. You just need to add splitters(and run coax to different rooms/etc.) to feed seperate devices. For instance, here my antenna feeds about 12 different OTA tuners - 3 of them currently are digital/HD, the rest analog/NTSC --- including FM receivers, NTSC tuners in VCR's/analog TV's /etc --- in 4 different rooms - There is one line from antenna to the attic, then it is split and coax ran to different rooms, in each room there is genereally one or two 2 way splitters in the line so multiple devices can get the signal off the antenna ... I do use preamp as well to recover from feedline/splitting losses .... I also have seperate antennas/seperate feedlines for Dayton+Cincinnati antenna(with A/B switch before receiver) in Two rooms, the other two rooms get only the "dayton" antenna ....

chrisdow

03-29-06, 10:44 AM

What's the new HDTivo box coming?

Also, when the heck are the rest of the local OTA/Networks (besides Fox) gonna get on the DD 5.1 bandwagon?

24 is awesome in HD & 5.1! -AND so would the Unit, ABC movies, Law & order, etc...is broadcaster FX in HD for anyone here?

jspicoli

03-29-06, 11:05 AM

I believe the new HD DVR for DirecTV is no longer going to be TIVO. It is suppose to be compatible with the new MPEG4 technology. Not sure if we (those of us w/ HD Tivo) are getting free swap outs or not. I personally am satisfied with my setup and am not looking forward to the changes.

Someone please correct anything I said inaccurately.

luebster

03-29-06, 11:18 AM

I believe the new HD DVR for DirecTV is no longer going to be TIVO. It is suppose to be compatible with the new MPEG4 technology.
That is most definitely correct.

Not sure if we (those of us w/ HD Tivo) are getting free swap outs or not. I personally am satisfied with my setup and am not looking forward to the changes.
There has been no official announcement (or even mention in their financials/conference calls) of a free swap out, but the popular (wishful?) thinking is that there would be a swap out for at most the cost of shipping. I would have to imagine we'd also be grandfathered in and not subject to paying the monthly lease for the box (we'd still have to pay the DVR fee, of course).

I'm extremely happy with my hr10-250 (albeit slow and folderless). I am, however, going to be very interested in the HMC, if and when that ever materializes.

jim tressler

03-29-06, 11:34 AM

same here.. the hd tivo is slow, but it is solid (for me anyway) - the new directv dvr (r15) imho sucks - period. The new mpeg 4 dvr (h20-250) is supposed to be the same as the new directv dvr software wise.. There are all kinds of rumors about when it is supposed to come out. the latest is summer of this year..but I am not holding my breath!

Nitewatchman

03-29-06, 12:22 PM

What's the new HDTivo box coming?

Also, when the heck are the rest of the local OTA/Networks (besides Fox) gonna get on the DD 5.1 bandwagon?

In Cincinnati, most(NBC, ABC, Fox, WB, PBS HD from WCET-DT or WCVN-DT/KET) have DD 5.1 capability except WKRC-DT (CBS HD) and so far that I've seen I don't think WPTO-DT(PBS HD during prime time) has done any DD 5.1 audio either. WCPO-DT(ABC HD) has rarely sent DD 5.1 so far even though they have the equipment(to some extent), as they've ran into some issues with it - for instance, I believe they have to switch to/from DD 5.1 "manually" for it to work until they install some new equipment, there may be other issues they are dealing with as well.

AVSforum member Bluestraw contacted WKRC-DT+WCPO-DT and posted DD 5.1 updates from them on the last page of this thread. WCPO-DT told him they were hoping to have it all set up by late spring, WKRC-DT told him they were hoping for sometime late this year.

Dayton ABC+CBS HD affiliates have DD 5.1(as do the other Dayton stations - excepting WPTD-DT/PBS HD except on rare occasions - specifically only once during a HD soundstage in Summer 2003 did they use it), so I normally just watch those for DD 5.1 audio from ABC or CBS ...

is broadcaster FX in HD for anyone here?

Who is broadcaster "FX"? I haven't heard of that one .... other than the "FX" cable network ....

I do get OTA HD from 14 Cincinnati/ N KY and Dayton stations : CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox, WB + PBS affiliates in Both markets -- PBS wise - WCVN-DT+WPTO-DT runs their own HD schedule, WCET-DT/WPTD-DT has PBS HD off the national "PBS HD" channel feed ......

WBDT-DT Dayton(WB HD Currently) will become a CW affiliate starting next fall, I assume they will have HD, WSTR-DT(WB HD Currently) Cincinnati will be a "MyNetworkTV" affiliate next fall, don't know if they are likely to have any HD(HD remakes of spanish soap operas may not be likely, LOL ) ....

Don't know what the situation is going to be with CW network+ Cincinnati affiliation, yet ... Hopefully WBQC-CA(analog only UPN currently) will get the CW affiliation In Cincinnati, and will be able to get a digital(hopefully HD) station on the air sometime in the next few years .... Haven't seen any announcements on it yet, which is probably not a good sign ..... other possibilities could be CW could be a "Cable only" channel in Cincinnati, or, I suppose it's possible another station could have a "dual affiliation" and either run CW network programming "time-shifted" or run it on a SD multicast subchannel.

terryfoster

03-29-06, 12:30 PM

What's the new HDTivo box coming?
TiVo is preparing to release the TiVo Series 3 HD-DVR in the second half of 2006. There are many articles you can easily find by searching for "TiVo Series 3".

Nitewatchman

03-29-06, 01:20 PM

Just ran into this interesting recent(3/27/06) rundown on The Cincinnati Market here :

http://www.mediaweek.com/mw/departments/marketprofile/index.jsp

Among other things of interest ... It reports whether or not WBQC will be CW affiliate is still unknown, and that WBQC is building a new facility, including 2 new studios, and that they plan on offering more local programming next year whether or not they end up as a CW affiliate, or an independant ...

Also, they cite research which indicates Cable penetration at 62% in Cincinnati Market, and 22% satellite subscribers ... That would presumably leaves about 16% as OTA only(I wonder how those of us who subscribe to satellite services, but not to sat LiL are counted?), which is right along the lines of figures I'd seen from a few years ago ....

chrisdow

03-29-06, 03:00 PM

So, Nitewatchman, my original statement is correct - the only Cincinnati local 'sender' of DD is Fox (wxixi-dt), right? All others WLWT-DT , WCPO-DT & WKRC-DT rarely if ever use DD...I've never got a primetime show on WCPO in DD(B.Legal or Alias)...can't remember if it's happened for an occasional movie (it wasn't DD for Sweet Home Alabama a couple of weeks ago)...don't do Dayton OTA, though...I remember a year ago local ABC said DD was just about here...I guess we're ahead of the curve here on HD content but to me, the sound is half the experience!
I did mean FX, as in network that has some of the newest, coolest shows (The Shield, Nip/Tuck, etc) I don't use the dreades cable-word :-) since I have D*but I guess it isn't a local so call it cable...-would be great if it cam out in HD, though...

Shall I assume my current HD-Tivo will display/play this new MPEG4 thang? I, too am extremely happy with my pair...who needs this "new(?)" VOD-stuff, we've had it for years - right, guys?

A question just for grins : Who's winning the Cincinnati-HD content award currently anyway? TW, D*, VOOM, Dish? With D* just adding TNT, by my count (incl my free OTA's), we're doing pretty, pretty good...I'll count 'em up & get back to you...any takers?

jim tressler

03-29-06, 03:06 PM

wcpo has the 5.1 equiptment - just not working right at the moment. WLWT sends 5.1 when its available.

you current hd tivo will not work with the mpeg 4 stuff - wheater you will still be able to use it OTA after mpeg2 goes away is up in the air - my guess is no as directv has to send you the tivo tier to enable the dvr function. hopefully someone will hack it so we can at least use it ota in the furture

who is winning the hd content war?? good question - I know TWC has inHD and Directv does not, but they do not have espn2hd yet (I think)

jkeane

03-29-06, 03:43 PM

TWC does have INHD & INHD2 plus the major local digitals. They do not have ESPN2 yet.

Nitewatchman

03-29-06, 04:23 PM

So, Nitewatchman, my original statement is correct

Nope. To cover it again for the third time on this page, Out of the 8 Cincinnati/Dayton OTA HD stations WKRC-DT, and presumably WPTO-DT(PBS/ThinkTV) are the only two which don't have DD 5.1 capability, WCPO-DT has it, but has so far rarely used it for reasons we've already covered. Last we heard, WCPO-DT currently plans on full DD 5.1 implementation by late spring of this year, WKRC-DT's current plans are for DD 5.1 by the end of this year ... as you noted "current" plans may not allways match "reality" .....

The other 5 Cincinnati HD stations(NBC HD - WLWT-DT, Fox HD - WXIX-DT, WB HD - WSTR-DT, PBS HD - WCET-DT and PBS HD from WCVN-DT/KET) normally(barring "technical difficulties"/etc) run DD 5.1 regularly - whenever it is available.

A question just for grins : Who's winning the Cincinnati-HD content award currently anyway? TW, D*, VOOM, Dish?

Not in a "counting it up"(such as number of HD channels available) manner -- but more along the lines of the amount of original HD programming people want to watch --- I'd have to still say the broadcast stations/broadcast nets have to be up there -- Those you can receive via OTA without a subscription to any of those, or a subscription to anything else for that matter. It's just too bad the broadcasters still have made very little attempt to "do" anything with it(such as promoting it/etc) .....

All 7 "major" Broadcast nets offer quite a bit of HD programming, UPN HD is the only one missing in Cincinnati currently. It's also the only place we've had any Local HD productions -- For example : We had a couple local HD productions for UC games from WXIX-DT last year, between 2000~2003 WKRC-DT did local HD productions of WEBN fireworks, WCET-DT has aired several local HD productions, the latest I know of being a program on Music Hall, and KET has done a couple of HD productions for the "American Shorts". Also, It wasn't local, but WKRC-DT also usually ran HD movies from the syndicated "HDOne" movie package when it was around ....

And, in Cincinnati you'll sometimes get more HD via OTA if you receive Dayton stations as well(which is possible in most locations in Cincinnati area) -- such as different NFL HD games on occasion, HD from the nets when the Cincinnati stations run local programming instead(UC games, Billy graham, SD syndicated movies on WCPO/etc.)

I don't know what all TW offers HD wise in Cincinnati market, but, On a national level from the pay-TV providers(including Cincinnati) I'd probably have to vote for E*(Dish network) as probably having the most HD content these days. What was Voom has been a part of E* for quite some time.

tim99

03-29-06, 04:39 PM

Agreed 100%. I picked up an R15 for the bedroom at Christmas and even getting paid $1 to take it ($99 at CC $100 rebate) it still sucks. Period.

Not only is the interface not really PVR intiutive (its more of an H10 STB forced into a PVR) it needs to be rebooted almost daily. G/WAF is worse than any PVR I have seen in my life.

Its a terrible thing to have to hope it takes forever for Mpeg4 national HD to be deployed so you can keep using a 8 year old interface/feature set.

Talk about 'Rethinking TV', heh.

peace . . .

same here.. the hd tivo is slow, but it is solid (for me anyway) - the new directv dvr (r15) imho sucks - period. The new mpeg 4 dvr (h20-250) is supposed to be the same as the new directv dvr software wise.. There are all kinds of rumors about when it is supposed to come out. the latest is summer of this year..but I am not holding my breath!

tim99

03-29-06, 05:03 PM

A question just for grins : Who's winning the Cincinnati-HD content award currently anyway? TW, D*, VOOM, Dish? With D* just adding TNT, by my count (incl my free OTA's), we're doing pretty, pretty good...I'll count 'em up & get back to you...any takers?

I'd say it depends on what you like-

D* - if you like HD sports and are up for sports subs and like HDNET

TW/Insight - if you hate dishes, don't care much for sports but love INHD

Dish - if for now you want to be able to say you have the most channels

VOOM - If you like dishes but have no tv or electricity

luebster

03-29-06, 05:25 PM

Those you can receive via OTA without a subscription to any of those, or a subscription to anything else for that matter. It's just too bad the broadcasters still have made very little attempt to "do" anything with it(such as promoting it/etc) .....

Do the locals have carriage contracts (and therefore get paid) similar to cable stations? If not, then I agree it's curious why they don't promote their DT more.

Nitewatchman

03-29-06, 05:46 PM

VOOM - If you like dishes but have no tv or electricity

LOL ! That is funny :)

Do the locals have carriage contracts (and therefore get paid) similar to cable stations? If not, then I agree it's curious why they don't promote their DT more.

They can have carriage agreements where they get paid via retransmission consent rules. Sometimes, it involves Cash(see article jim posted a link to earlier in thread), sometimes it can other deals - for example -- such as carriage of a SD multicast channel.

Regardless, I don't think there is really any "reasonable" reason why they shouldn't be able to promote their HD or OTA service.

That being said, I've also heard such things as : when broadcasters have tried to promote Free, over-the-air HD on their stations on occasion, cableco's have wanted to pull their ads from those stations because of it -- for those Cable TV ads you see on broadcast stations. That can be a quite a chunk of revenue for stations .....

goheelz

03-29-06, 06:44 PM

rlp,

I have directv and when I had my antenna installed I had them try it through the existing multiswitch first instead of drilling into the house. I get good reception in loveland for the major stations that way.

Nitewatchman

03-29-06, 06:58 PM

goheelz,

The way I understand it from the info posted from the D* "experts" on the hardware forum are that The new DirecTV setup for "HD locals" via MPEG4 with the 5lnb on the dish, and the multiswitch that is needed for it doesn't support that or diplexing as the new Ka/ku band sats with the HD locals on them are downconverted(such as by the lnb) to the same frequencies that are used by UHF OTA TV band, and that is the reason you can't diplex OTA with it .... . Read on one thread it can work if you are using an older multiswitch, but you need the newer multiswitch for the HD locals via the dish to work "when available" ...

I guess they thought it wouldn't be much of a problem for many folks who were diplexing OTA previously since they will be providing HD locals via the dish, just not yet in Cincinnati area .... Don't really know why folks would want to mess with it though, when they can receive the HD locals OTA ....

terryfoster

03-29-06, 10:32 PM

goheelz

03-30-06, 05:24 PM

I guess I'm not counting on D* to deliver my HD any time soon. There current lineup is pitiful and is not anywhere near worth the $10/month they charge. It would be nice to have an HD tivo some day though (sigh)

chrisdow

03-30-06, 05:50 PM

I stand corrected. Law & Order WAS in DD 5.1 last nite on WLWT-DT 35 (5-1). (Too bad NBC doesn't offer much in way of programming) --But any HD/DD is good HD/DD!

Yes, an HD Tivo is nice! --it encompasses the 2 best things to happen to TV since color television.

-& the combo of D* & Local OTA (sound like) is as good, & as much, as anything out there. Go C-town!

PS : Which post # talks about guys that have got both the Cincy Local HD set-up & the Dayton HD stations too? Is there a simple, elegant way to have it all? (he asks skeptically)

jim tressler

03-30-06, 07:58 PM

I have them both - no problems.. although I have to use an a/b switch

rlp2955

03-30-06, 08:27 PM

Ok gang,
TNT pictures came out this afternoon. Wanted to install the Wineguard similar to the one Jeff linked to in his last post. I told him that I wanted to try and work with the DB2 on the roof before doing any of that. So he moved the DB2 higher up on my roof. Better signal strength on all the major networks but nothing on ABC. Zilch. Zero. When he tested it with his meter, he wasn't getting anything either. He told me nothing was coming in on the VHF side. I asked him if he knew anything about diplexing and the new 5 LNB dishes...he kept saying there should be nothing wrong with diplexing. I told him that wasn't the case. So, we ran the cable directly to the receiver through my house to test. Still nothing on ABC...but 100% signal strength on just about everything else. So, the diplexing certainly does "sap" some of the signal strength. So, it looks like I am dead in the water on VHF with this DB2 for the time being. He had the big Wineguard but I told him I knew someone (Jeff) that was potentially going to be able to help me do this on my own. He offered to perhaps come back next week with "an antenna that would provide a little more UHF and a smaller VHF"..and only charge me for the antenna. Told him I would give him a buzz and see what we could do next week.

Jim has offered to help me in a week or so with my setup as he believes the DB2 should be able to do what we need. Or we may try one of his channel masters. Jim, I will PM you.

This is never going to end :) Appreciate the advice and feedback.

jimp2244

03-30-06, 08:56 PM

So, I got curious this evening and decided to check out the 1-99 channels to see what channels they are broadcast on and found that nearly every channel is now digital. The only channels that are not available digitally are the local access channels. Also if you tune to 8## in diagnosis mode you can see the other location they have displayed these channels.

This made me think of something... When analog shutoff occurs, will cable companies also no longer be required to send analog signals for cable-ready TVs as they are now? Could they instead send QAM? I could see this being the end of "plug in the cable-ready TV and get standard cable" era. Obviously there are some channels that they have to send through unencrypted (Local OTA channels), but for the rest, couldn't they require a cablecard or set top box?

Nitewatchman

03-30-06, 09:37 PM

Cableco's are currently not allowed to "downrez" digital from broadcast stations(even SD digital) to analog at the cable head end. Cableco's want the law to change to allow them to do this after analog shut off occurs, oddly enough, even though it means it would require more bandwidth on their system vs. a "all digital" cable system. That way(well, except low power stations which don't necessarily have a 2/17/09 analog hard shut off date), they'd be the only provider of analog NTSC that still "works with your Old TV" ... And, it would solve the problem of converting all the analog cable customers out there to digital.

"Other" parties don't want this to be allowed, and think it should be required(as it is now) that the signal should be passed through as 'digital' to the cable customer, where it then can either be used with a digital TV(such as a "digital cable ready" set), A STB, or converted to analog with an STB.

There are "digital cable ready" TV's(I.e. sets with QAM tuners in them) - I have one of them, it has a cablecard slot as well - BTW, by law, if it is labeled "digital cable ready" it also has to have a OTA ATSC tuner in it.

I think we are going to start seeing more and more "digital cable ready" sets on the shelves as the analog "cable-ready" sets of the past are slowly replaced. I'm guessing most models with a ATSC tuner will have a QAM tuner and be "digital cable ready" as well.

Nitewatchman

03-31-06, 10:33 AM

Sorry for the delay in reply on this one, didn't have time last night ...

Wanted to install the Wineguard similar to the one Jeff linked to in his last post.

I think that would have been a good idea.

I asked him if he knew anything about diplexing and the new 5 LNB dishes...he kept saying there should be nothing wrong with diplexing.

Unfortunetly, Probably not too many folks familiar with the new DirecTV setup for HD locals via the dish yet ....

So, it looks like I am dead in the water on VHF with this DB2 for the time being.

Not surprising since the DB2 is a UHF only antenna ....

He had the big Wineguard but I told him I knew someone (Jeff) that was potentially going to be able to help me do this on my own.

#1). That's a *small~medium sized* VHF/UHF combo antenna - Probably winegard PR7010 or PR7015. CM3016(lowes has them, or used to) or Radio Shack VU-75/VU-90 are other examples of small~medium size VHF/UHF combo that are probably a little less expensive than the winegards.

Large VHF/UHF combo antennas, and the best broadband(which cover channel 2-13, and usually FM to some extent) VHF only TV antennas are generally about 15~17 feet long - about 3 times bigger than the small antenna he brought along with him.

The only other "significantly" smaller VHF/UHF combo antennas out there are not much(if any) better than a "coathanger" or an outdoor pair of "rabbit ears", and are designed to "look pretty" rather than to actually work very well .... They are also often quite a bit more expensive than antennas that are designed to actually work well ... But yeah, in some cases when the signal is strong enough and multipath isn't too bad such "coathangers" as the sensars or stealthtennas(those are both VHF/UHF - sort of) and "sharpshooters"(UHF only) can work, probably especially so on VHF .... The *only* UHF antenna which often just happens to work OK on VHF(VHF-HI ch 7-13 only) as well is the CM4228 8-bay bowtie ....

A good, directional, Hi-gain HI-VHF(channel 7-13) Only antenna such as YA-6713 I provided a link to earlier is certianly a little smaller than a small~medium sized VHF/UHF combo such as Winegard PR7010, CM 3016, RS VU75 or VU90 - but it's still just as long - about 5 feet long, but with elements only about 3 feet wide. AND you'd still need a 2nd, seperate UHF antenna(such as your DB2 if it's working well for all 7 Cincinnati/N KY Digital/HD UHF stations), and a VHF/UHF joiner(such as CM#0549) to combine your seperate VHF/UHF antennas onto the same coax run .... You would also want to put the two antennas at least 3~5 feet apart if mounted on the same mast .... Of course, you also don't get reception of channels 2-6 or FM with one of those - although you don't need 2-6 for Cincinnati Digital/HD stations so if that's all you're interested in a good Hi-VHF antenna such as YA-6713, for WCPO-DT(and WKRC-DT after analog shut off) along with UHF antenna would be a good choice.

#2). I'll help if I can here(or via PM if you like), but I don't really know what more I can offer other than what I've already posted about ...

This is never going to end

LOL ... Think chances are vey good you would have been set if you would have had him install(on the roof) the antenna he brought (and with a rotor if you wanted Dayton reception as well), and had him run a seperate (not diplexed) coax run to the antenna ....

jim tressler

03-31-06, 10:44 AM

hopefully next weekend I can get over there to help him out.. sounds like things will be fine once we get the right equiptment and get the diplexing out of the mix..

like anything its a learning process :)

Nitewatchman

03-31-06, 11:22 AM

Surprise surprise! TBN low power Translator, W36DG Cincinnati is the first Low power station in Southwest ohio to file a digital Flash cut application(dated 3/30/06) with FCC ...

The technical info from FCC TV query is under the then 2nd entry down listed as "service designation: LD" and "application" here :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=W36DG&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

Here is the application itself(think this requires Acrobat reader)(an engineering statement which is downloadable is also attached to the bottom of the application) :

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101122785&formid=346&fac_num=68075

They're asking for the fully allowed for digital LP On UHF - 15KW ERP.

JunkyardDogg

04-01-06, 11:36 PM

So does this mean that they will shut down the analog channel?

Nitewatchman

04-02-06, 01:21 PM

JYDogg,

Yes, they'll have to shut down the analog when they flash cut to digital on channel 36. Analog and digital stations in the same area can't transmit on the same channel, otherwise they would interfere with each other.

First, their application to flash cut to digital(on channel 36) has to be granted by FCC - If/when that happens, they'll then have 3 years to build the digital station before the permit from FCC to flash cut to digital on channel expires. Meaning, once the permit is granted, they could build the digital station and flash cut to digital at any time within that 3 year period of time.

Low power(including LP translators as well as Class A stations such as WBQC-CA) stations can either "flash cut" to digital on their current channel -- Or, seek a 2nd, digital companion channel(if there is one available - the spectrum is very crowded currently/until analog shut off for full service stations) - FCC is opening a filing window in May for LP stations who want to seek a 2nd channel for digital operation during the remainder or the transistion ....

Note that the 2/09 analog hard shut off date does not apply to low power stations.

It will be interesting to see if any low power digital stations in this area are utilized for services such as "USDTV".

Nitewatchman

04-03-06, 08:51 PM

Been a while since I've noticed any such "issues" with local digital stations, but At 8:45pm EDT Mon 4/3 I notice that :

WXIX-DT :

PSIP channel remapping is currently missing from WXIX-D. I am Decoding them fine on 29-3 and 29-4(the tube). Some folks who have receivers which don't "update" PSIP info when you tune to a channel may still be seeing them at 19.1+19.2.

--------------------------------

WCVN-DT/KET :

HD is missing currently from KET4 - It's still in "SD mode" with CPB/Annenburg channel up .... HD program schedule on KET website says it should be NOVA in HD ... Wonder if they are still in "EST mode", and perhaps it will switch to HD at 9pm?

Update : Yep, at 9pm EDT KET4 switched to HD mode (with NOVA)

goheelz

04-04-06, 09:16 AM

Been a while since I've noticed any such "issues" with local digital stations, but At 8:45pm EDT Mon 4/3 I notice that :

WXIX-DT :

PSIP channel remapping is currently missing from WXIX-D. I am Decoding them fine on 29-3 and 29-4(the tube). Some folks who have receivers which don't "update" PSIP info when you tune to a channel may still be seeing them at 19.1+19.2.

Would this be the likely cause of why I could not 24 in HD last night? I could pick up 19 in sd. I was thinking the storm on Sunday might have moved my antenna, but I recieve the other HD locals fine. I looked on antennaweb and saw that WXIX is not of the orientation of the other stations by much.

thanks

Nitewatchman

04-04-06, 11:42 AM

Would this be the likely cause of why I could not 24 in HD last night? I could pick up 19 in sd.
thanks

Yes, it's likely not your antenna. You could try rescanning for channels or (if your receiver allows you to do this) try tuning directly to 29.3. We'll probably have to call them and let them know there is a problem if they don't get it fixed soon.

Stations send virtual channel remapping info(in this case to 19.1+19.2 - when it is working) along with their signal via something called PSIP. Different receiver models behave differently when proper PSIP isn't being sent by the stations.

If the stations aren't sending it properly, some receivers can't decode the datastream at all, regardless of what you try(manually tuning to 29.x/etc). Other receiver's might still see them on 19.x depending upon how they save virtual channel info(some only do it via a autoscan), other receivers(such as my Zenith HDV420) check a station's PSIP everytime you tune to a station+updates it's internal virtual channel info - some of those might still see them just fine on 29.3/29.4 (such as my Zenith does), but others might not be able to decode them at all if the are designed to "require" Proper PSIP .....

If they are using a receiver to monitor the off air signal at WXIX, they probably won't realize there is a problem until they switch it to another channel and then back to WXIX-DT ...

After posting last night, I checked the internal tuner in my Sony HDTV - It did work if I tuned to 29.3 or 29.4 manually, but it just gave me a blank screen on 19.1 or 19.2, and it would not allow me to add 29.3/29.4 into the channel surf list. Usually, it does allow the latter.

ItzMe

04-04-06, 12:03 PM

Can someone who knows the right words to use please call WXIX? Using my HR10-250 DirectTIVO I rescanned Off-Air Channels and got it to find 29-3 and 29-4, it even put those channels into my guide. But there is no guide data, so I won't be able to TIVO anything on Fox HD, unless I do some sort of manual record to channel 29-3. I know of know way to manually remap. Its odd because 19-2 is working fine, but when I tune to 19-1 it gives a "Searching for Ant Signal" error and a blank screen, which I think has already been acknowledged by Jeff and all. Can someone please call them and post what they say?

ItzMe

04-04-06, 12:37 PM

Update at 12:30pm... Who do I thank? 19-1 seems all fixed. Thanks to whomever :)

upgrade-itis

04-04-06, 12:59 PM

Any progress with Dolby Digital on WCPO 9.1? With the Masters this weekend it sure would be nice to hear.

I tried last year to sync the DD audio on Universal HD with the OTA picture and could not pull it off due to the damn satellite delay.

For me, Masters weekend is still the pinnacle of HDTV.

Bluestraw

04-04-06, 02:43 PM

jimp2244

04-04-06, 02:51 PM

Maybe WXIX was fixing their PSIP (maybe we'll finally get tv listings from them). Did you happen to notice if the tv listings were available? (I'm referring to the what's on now/next data that most other channels are sending). I'll check when I get home too.

Any progress with Dolby Digital on WCPO 9.1? With the Masters this weekend it sure would be nice to hear.

I tried last year to sync the DD audio on Universal HD with the OTA picture and could not pull it off due to the damn satellite delay.

For me, Masters weekend is still the pinnacle of HDTV.

Isn't the Masters on CBS which would be WKRC 12.1? You're most likely not goign to get any 5.1 out of them as they said they are "hoping" to have it by the end of the year if I recall correctly.

terryfoster

04-04-06, 03:34 PM

However, my understanding is that WKRC show the Masters (it is always on CBS at the weekend) so there is definitely no DD5.1! Maybe next year if we're lucky!

Sounds like a good reason to pick up WHIO-DT to me.

upgrade-itis

04-04-06, 03:47 PM

I have no additional information from that which I shared earlier - I would anticipate later in April at the earliest before DD5.1 will be available on WCPO.

However, my understanding is that WKRC show the Masters (it is always on CBS at the weekend) so there is definitely no DD5.1! Maybe next year if we're lucky!

My mistake WKRC is correct. I still cant get straight after all of these years that 9 is 12 and 12 is now 9.

Anyway any news on WKRC? I can't pull in Dayton with my Squareshooter antenna. Way too directional. I guess i could go up on the roof, but I finally have a good pic on the major networks.

I recall a Webhopperweasel that seemed to work for one of the stations locally.

goheelz

04-04-06, 04:56 PM

Yes, it's likely not your antenna. You could try rescanning for channels or (if your receiver allows you to do this) try tuning directly to 29.3. We'll probably have to call them and let them know there is a problem if they don't get it fixed soon.

Thanks. I checked it when I got home and I can pick it up on 29.3. My Sony is finding it on the rescan but not at 19.1 for me at 5PM. For some reason I no longer see WCET 48.1 but at leat I have the majors back.

Jeff

dc10forlife

04-04-06, 05:10 PM

Anyone have the inside scoop on whether there is any chance we will be able to see the Reds in HD this year? Will FSN-Ohio ever go HD?

jimp2244

04-04-06, 08:52 PM

I believe the Cleveland Indians are getting at least some games in HD on the FSN Ohio HD channel (currently only available up in those parts). Haven't heard anything about the Reds though.

jim tressler

04-04-06, 10:08 PM

the indians formed their own network called sportstime ohio / they dumped fox sports - all indians home games are in hd - but unforunatly, directv will not pick up the hd feed as a part of the ei package :(

mlbUC

04-05-06, 08:34 AM

Jim Tressler,

I don't believe TWC will pick up the HD feeds either. I think it is an issue with the provider of the feeds to D*, TWC, E*, etc..

jimp2244

04-05-06, 08:52 AM

Jim Tressler,

I don't believe TWC will pick up the HD feeds either. I think it is an issue with the provider of the feeds to D*, TWC, E*, etc..

Who IS picking up the feeds then?

jim tressler

04-05-06, 10:54 AM

northern ohio cable systems carry the hd signal.. a friend of mine has adelphia up there and he gets them :(

upgrade-itis

04-05-06, 11:18 AM

I briefly looked into contacting FSN Ohio (Cincy) last year about developing Reds HD games. I could not find the right person to get ahold of.

I would watch more Reds coverage if the games were in HD. Via D* my FSN channel is one of the worst SD pictures I have.

Is there any bright ideas to get the ball rolling? Any contacts?

I know its' not going to happen now, but maybe it will help in the future.

Inundated

04-05-06, 11:57 AM

northern ohio cable systems carry the hd signal.. a friend of mine has adelphia up there and he gets them :(

SportsTime Ohio (new Indians network) is carried in HD by TWC, Adelphia and some others here. It won't be in HD on DirecTV or Dish Network.

FSN Ohio, which still has the Cavaliers, has about 10 late-season games in HD up here.

I don't know if there are any plans to ever show the Reds in HD, at least this season.

mlbUC

04-05-06, 01:55 PM

Most of them don't carry the RSN's in HD except for their local channel.

Does Adelphia carry the EI's package in HD, or just the Sportstime network and FSN Ohio HD?

Nitewatchman

04-05-06, 03:01 PM

Today's Cubs at Reds game is currently on ESPN -- I'm getting it via E* .... Don't know about ESPN HD ....

Wish we could go back to the days when WLWT/WLWD(now WDTN) had many of the Reds Games OTA ...

mlbUC

04-05-06, 03:12 PM

microbob

04-05-06, 03:21 PM

That would be nice, but they wouldn't pay the money nor be able to preempt network programming enough to make it worthwhile for the Reds.

15 years ago I thought the Reds should have bought WSTR 64 and turned it into a "superstation", then put a large number of games on that station.

That could happen next year when WSTR looses the WB. They will have many holes in its prime time schedule to fill. MY Network doesn't look like it will attract many viewers. I'd like to see a few Reds games added on the weekends.

I don't expect Sinclair to sell WSTR though.

Inundated

04-05-06, 03:29 PM

Does Adelphia carry the EI's package in HD, or just the Sportstime network and FSN Ohio HD?

I don't see any place for them to carry HD for EI, so I'd have to say no. There's an HD PPV channel (799), but I haven't seen EI telecasts in that program guide (I have seen NBA TV's HD PPV games on the 799 guide). I don't know if the HD version of EI is available on cable.

STO and FSN Ohio's HD telecasts share the same channel on Adelphia - 798 ("HD Bonus"). The HD Cavs games on FSN Ohio won't overlap with STO's HD Indians broadcasts, so they can do that. There's only one more HD Cavs game - next Monday - which is on an Indians off day.

Nitewatchman

04-05-06, 05:23 PM

That would be nice, but they wouldn't pay the money nor be able to preempt network programming enough to make it worthwhile for the Reds.

Well, I said "I wish", I did not mean to suggest it is even remotely likely to happen. I Referred to WLWT/D only because that's where the Reds used to be on TV. I expect it probably won't happen as long as there is more $ to be made via folks who will pay for it via sat or cable via "cablenets" such as FSN ......

As I recall, in the late 70's and early~mid 80's WLWT had MANY Reds Games - not too often(if ever) home games that weren't sellouts, however, and probably moreso day games .... WLWT was NBC affiliate then as well. Was it "worthwhile" for the Reds+WLWT back then ? What, of any "major" relevance is different now, except much higher cable/sat penetration, and a few first-run network shows in the summer months?

Seems I can even recall occasions when Pre-Sinclair WSTR(or one of their previous callsigns - WIII and WBTI) ran NBC programming when it was preempted on WLWT - can't recall if there were occasions specifically involving Reds games ...

Also, keep in mind we now have multicasting with digital broadcast. For instance, WLWT runs multicast NBC "weatherplus" subchannel. Reds HD on, say - WSTR-DT at 720p, and a bandwidth starved SD channel of spanish soap opera remakes and reality shows for "MyNetworkTV" on WSTR-DT would work for me ..... Like that is even remotely likely to happen,either .. LOL -- Have they taken down the "WB64 news at 10" signs yet ;)

mlbUC

04-06-06, 09:26 AM

I never tried to say that you or anyone else thought it was remotely possible, I was just pointing out that the money is completely different.

As far as preempting network programming, I was told by an employee of WXIX that they couldn't add any more UC basketball games to their schedule due to the preemption limitations set by the Fox Network. I'm pretty sure that all the major networks have the same rules as Fox, and I doubt they care if it is reruns or first run episodes.

I'd say the most feasible thing that might happen would be for the Reds to start their own cable network in partnership with a local provider, in this case Time Warner, like the Indians did. It would allow them to get a large chunk of the advertising revenue for their TV broadcasts, which surely are more than what they get for selling the TV rights to Fox Sports Ohio. They could show more games and get even more revenue, probably without much of an effect on attendance.

Of course, this doesn't make it any better for the people who refuse to pay for Cable or Satellite TV.

Nitewatchman

04-06-06, 11:51 AM

I never tried to say that you or anyone else thought it was remotely possible.

I didn't say you did. I was clarifying my comments, since you responded to them.

As far as preempting network programming, I was told by an employee of WXIX that they couldn't add any more UC basketball games to their schedule due to the preemption limitations set by the Fox Network. I'm pretty sure that all the major networks have the same rules as Fox, and I doubt they care if it is reruns or first run episodes.

As has been pointed out, there are now other options besides preempting network programming. For instance, WXIX runs "The Tube" Music Network on a SD multicast subchannel, it could just as well be a "Reds" and UC basketball Subchannel, which could also be carried by cable(yeah, I know we want HD but ...) There also may be a independant station in Cincinnati If WBQC-CA doesn't get CW affiliation. True, WBQC is a low power station currently, but there is allways the possibility that could change - especially perhaps after DTV transisition.

I also liked your idea about WSTR - Even though we are a "small market", I would think there may be enough national interest in the Reds that a superstation with many Reds Games might have worked.

Of course, this doesn't make it any better for the people who refuse to pay for Cable or Satellite TV.

I don't think it is so much a matter of people "refusing" to pay for cable or satellite as it is a matter of some folks not being *interested* in doing so, and a matter of some folks *choosing* to use OTA for their TV programming instead. Wouldn't it be nice if more Reds Games were available to those of us who do not choose to pay extra for FSN, or to those who do not choose the option of cable or satellite services ?

I for one would like to see more quality programming(including programming of local/regional interest) available from the local broadcast stations. Outside of some network programming and to some extent the local PBS stations, (IMO), I've watched the amount of quality programming decline from local broadcasters over the past 10~15 years or so as the number of folks using cable/satellite has greatly increased, And, as the number of "channels" has greatly increased. I don't think that's just a "coincidence" ....

Even via those pay services the amount of quality programming available(IMO) has decreased, or became greatly "diluted". 20~25 years ago, with say, 10 or so OTA channels there was usually allways *something* on I wanted to watch(including often Reds Games), now I receive over 100 channels via OTA and Dish network, and there are often times when there is *nothing* on any of them I care to watch. For some strange reason, I'm currently paying over $300 a year for satellite(I primarily use OTA+DVD for TV programming) mostly just to watch BSG(which I could just wait a while and do DVD), occasionally NASA TV, occasionally news or CSPAN coverage and for a game on ESPN every now and then ....

mlbUC

04-06-06, 11:56 AM

Isn't NASA TV FTA over Dish? You probably could still receive NASA TV if you cancelled your service, as that channel, from my understanding, has to be broadcast in the clear to anybody who can receive the signal.

Nitewatchman

04-06-06, 12:09 PM

Isn't NASA TV FTA over Dish?

Yes, it is. It was when I first installed the dish+receiver and before I called Dish to activate the subscription, anyway.

It's also available FTA satellite via other options -- WCPO used to have a note up on their digital station's website that indicated they ran NASA TV during shuttle missions on what is now their 9.2 "weather tracker" subchannel .... I never saw it happen since I've been watching it since 2001 however ....

BTW -- Ham Radio "Amateur TV" repeater W8BI Dayton used to also "broadcast" NASA TV during Shuttle missions. They are normally a repeater which "rebroadcasts" TV transmissions sent by Hams on another frequency which is then rebroadcast by the repeater. It Transmits NTSC analog signal on what is Cable Channel 58 - Don't know about now, but They were still there last I checked about a year ago - to the extent of ID'ing with a NTSC signal -- pictures of their station+tower/etc with W8BI callsign via an auto ID every 10 minutes. They could/can potentially be received in Dayton area with an appropriate antenna+with a "cable-ready" analog TV set to "cable" but hooked up to an antenna ...... The W8BI ATV antenna was(and maybe still is) on a tower on 741 Not too far from Dayton mall ...

tvbobn

04-06-06, 12:12 PM

The only way you will be able to get the new CW network programing is via pay tv.
You will have to have digital cable, FOX 19 will use its digital channel 29, to broadcat the CW this fall, but there isn't enough bankwith to do two HD formats.
Over the air you will get FOX HD, the tube, and SD CW network. This stinks! :mad:

mlbUC

04-06-06, 12:22 PM

BTW -- Ham Radio "Amateur TV" repeater W8BI Dayton used to also "broadcast" NASA TV during Shuttle missions. They are normally a repeater which "rebroadcasts" TV transmissions sent by Hams on another frequency which is then rebroadcast by the repeater. It Transmits NTSC analog signal on what is Cable Channel 58 - Don't know about now, but They were still there last I checked about a year ago - to the extent of ID'ing with a NTSC signal -- pictures of their station+tower/etc with W8BI callsign via an auto ID every 10 minutes. They could/can potentially be received in Dayton area with an appropriate antenna+with a "cable-ready" analog TV set to "cable" but hooked up to an antenna ...... The W8BI ATV antenna was(and maybe still is) on a tower on 741 Not too far from Dayton mall ...

Interesting, I might have to check that out.

Nitewatchman

04-06-06, 12:31 PM

The only way you will be able to get the new CW network programing is via pay tv.

WBDT Dayton(currently WB HD on their digital station) is going to be a CW affiliate. I receive it fine here, it should be receivable OTA at least from the Northern portions of Metro Cincinnati area. Here's their predicted coverage area map from FCC site :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT628342.html

FOX 19 will use its digital channel 29, to broadcat the CW this fall,but there isn't enough bankwith to do two HD formats.Over the air you will get FOX HD, the tube, and SD CW network.

Can you provide info on your source for this info? Thanks. I just did a search of WXIX's site, as well as Raycom's(owns WXIX) site, as well as a little "googling" and can find no mention or announcement of this.

I know Fox HD+the "splicer" system Fox uses for HD can work with ONE SD multicast subchannel(such as "the tube"), but two of them? Geez, look how bad "The Tube" gets at times "Compression artifact wise" currently ....

mlbUC

04-06-06, 12:51 PM

At least they give priority to the Fox HD channel... It would suck to have that constantly choking.

jimp2244

04-06-06, 12:58 PM

Can you provide info on your source for this info? Thanks. I just did a search of WXIX's site, as well as Raycom's(owns WXIX) site, as well as a little "googling" and can find no mention or announcement of this.

I know Fox HD+the "splicer" system Fox uses for HD can work with ONE SD multicast subchannel(such as "the tube"), but two of them? Geez, look how bad "The Tube" gets at times "Compression artifact wise" currently ....

Don't know if this has any credibility, but:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CoolKatt_number_99999/Alternate_History_WXIX

That's an "alternate" wikipedia article. The real article makes no mention of this...

mlbUC

04-06-06, 01:03 PM

Don't know if this has any credibility, but:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CoolKatt_number_99999/Alternate_History_WXIX

That's an "alternate" wikipedia article. The real article makes no mention of this...

I'd give it zero credibility... it claims WXIX is "WB19", the WB affiliate for Cincinnati :)

Also, I didn't realize that WLWT is now a Fox affiliate... and WSTR is the NBC affiliate.

Who the hell wrote this?

jimp2244

04-06-06, 01:10 PM

I'd give it zero credibility... it claims WXIX is "WB19", the WB affiliate for Cincinnati :)

Also, I didn't realize that WLWT is now a Fox affiliate... and WSTR is the NBC affiliate.

Who the hell wrote this?

Yeah... I don't know who wrote that or why, just pointing out that it's there. It was about all I could find using Google that mentions WXIX having anything to do with CW.

Nitewatchman

04-06-06, 02:16 PM

LOL ... Yes, Whoever wrote that is really "mixed up", although some of the write up concerning the history is somewhat correct .. WSTR(previously WIII "the eyes of Cincinnati", and before that WBTI - and they *did* have the ONTV subscription service in the early~Mid 80's) *WAS* originally the UPN affiliate and, at times(this is early~mid 90's or earlier) they *did* run NBC programming when WLWT "preempted" it for other programming ... I don't know whether or not they were "officially" a secondary NBC affiliate however ... Before UPN, they were independant other than the occasional NBC ....

AND, WCPO was CBS/WKRC was ABC prior to the Early 90's when they made the switch(which happened at the same time Letterman moved to CBS), but not currently as it is listed at bottom of article, LOL .....

WBQC(which wasn't even mentioned in the article) was the original WB affiliate in Cincinnati until They switched affiliation with WSTR ... Hence WBQC -- "WB Queen City" (its previous callsign was W25AI - they had such programming as "Network One" and local "Kung Fu" shows), even though they are currently UPN .... They also I believe did at times run some NBC shows WLWT didn't, and were also a "secondary" Pax affiliate for quite some time.

WOTH-LP *IS* currently an independant station(has america One, UATV - Home shopping/etc - They also have had such stuff as CFL football and even ran "The Shawshank Redemption" a couple of weeks ago a couple of nights before it ran on WBQC), and is one of two stations owned by Elliot Block, WBQC being the other, both transmit from high up on WCPO's tower .... WBQC 38 (UPN currently) was on 25 until a little over a year ago when they moved to 38 (Mostly I think because of WBQC's Class A status and potential interference protection issues involving that "Class A" status concerning 1st adajcent channel WBDT 26 Dayton ) ... WOTH was originally on channel 35(and were mostly home shopping up until they moved to 25), but in 98 had to move because of WLWT-DT 35, they moved to 39, then had to move again(temporarily to 38 before moving to 25 as is the case currently+using WBQC's old channel 25 transmitter+antenna) because of WKOI-DT 39 ...

Here is more accurate info on WBQC :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WBQC

and here:

http://www.wbqc.com/aboutus/history/index.htm

And on WOTH "the other channel" :

http://www.wbqc.com/woth/

And on WXIX :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WXIX-TV

And on WSTR :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WSTR-TV

cokebear

04-06-06, 04:48 PM

You should have updated that Wikpedia article. :)

Nitewatchman

04-06-06, 05:08 PM

How much does it pay :) Just kidding ... All they'd really need to do I think is delete the alternate article, from what I checked the other articles on Cincinnati TV info are fine ...

Anyhow, HD masters coverage is looking good this afternoon on WKRC-DT and WHIO-DT ...

Nitewatchman

04-06-06, 07:26 PM

Just noticed WKRC-DT is currently multicasting again. SD digital simulcast of analog on 12-2 with no audio currently .....

spikor

04-06-06, 07:56 PM

I know if you go up higher on Analog to get a better signal it can actually hurt but going up higher on HDTV will it help any because the signal is different? I am up 27 ft. but can go up to 70 +/- ft. will this help? I was told even IF I go up to 300ft it might not help I live in Tollesboro Ky. about 65 or so +/- Miles from the Cincy Downtown Towers and lexington Ky Towers. WCPO Digital is Still my problem child to get in And I know they are at different heights on the WCPO Towers as learned earlier a few to half of dozen pages ago.

psm0110

04-06-06, 08:17 PM

How much does it pay :) Just kidding ... All they'd really need to do I think is delete the alternate article, from what I checked the other articles on Cincinnati TV info are fine ...the whole point of wikipedia is that the public can correct the articles. With your breadth of knowledge you should really augment some of the articles about local broadcasters. The "they" in yoru sentence is technically all of us, heck I just editted an article on wikkipedia the other day.

Nitewatchman

04-06-06, 10:09 PM

Spikor,

antenna placement is as important for digital OTA as it is for analog .... As a general rule, higher is usually better, especially in fringe areas ..... A few feet higher might even make a big difference. You had originally said you were about 90 miles from Cincinnati, hence my comments at the time about 300 feet(or being on top of a ridge being a good idea) might not even be enough, as the Max coverage areas of the stations are (generally) about 55~65 miles ... Can be farther if you are in a "high spot", can be less if you are in a location shiedled by nearby terrain in direction of towers ....

In fringe areas, the performance of the antenna system itself can also be a very important factor. The antenna setup/preamp/etc used by the fellow at the following post(with pictures) would likely be a a better choice for your situation than the Medium sized VHF/UHF Radio shack combo you had posted a pic of earlier in thread. Improvements of a few db or so can make for quite a difference in "fringe" areas ...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7360272&&#post7360272

psm,

Again, I was just kidding! I'm aware of how wikipedia works ....

I choose to spend quite a bit of my extra time when possible contributing here ... Well, hopefully I'm contributing something useful here occasionally .....

mlbUC

04-07-06, 08:09 AM

WCPO was CBS/WKRC was ABC prior to the Early 90's when they made the switch(which happened at the same time Letterman moved to CBS), but not currently as it is listed at bottom of article, LOL .....

It was actually the summer of 1997, if I remember correctly.

tvbobn

04-07-06, 09:41 AM

The infomation I shared on this web site with you was not for the general public, I though you guys and gals, have a real interest in HD tv in Cincinnati. I will except your apploigies in about two week, including the new newscast ;), until then I be quit about the CW. :)

spikor

04-07-06, 12:52 PM

I was using the Mileage factor as a guess (with a buffer zone). Punching it in to yahoo maps says I am about 67-72 depending on where you search from. ( in Cincy or Lexington) If I remember Right? Sorry for me being wrong or off too much with my guess I just guessed wrong. I was not guessing in a Straight line either I was guessing my the numbers in my Auto when traveling those Areas. With my buffer factor calculated In I over stated I should of went in and corrected it I guess I should of proofread or came back and corrected it. My fault. I should of buffered it to 75. Sorry for my Mistakes to have your calculations off. I know you are doing everything to help me to get the Absolute best out of pulling the signals in. Thank you again for your help/support and patience. I appreciate it very much

Nitewatchman

04-07-06, 01:47 PM

It was actually the summer of 1997, if I remember correctly.

I was wrong as well, It was 1996 according to this(I assume WCPO has its facts straight) :

http://www.wcpo.com/wcpo/numbers.html

Sorry, I remembered it wrong. Seems like there was something involved with Letterman -- which I "mixed" up ... Maybe it was something along the lines of when WCPO was CBS, there was another show they aired at 11:30, and they didn't start Letterman until Midnight ?

The infomation I shared on this web site with you was not for the general public, I though you guys and gals, have a real interest in HD tv in Cincinnati. I will except your apploigies in about two week, including the new newscast , until then I be quit about the CW.

Again, thanks for the "info", however, I see no need for anyone to apologize to you for anything, all I asked for is some sort of evidence to support the information you provided. You've offered no evidence that suggests what you say is true -- maybe it is, we'll see, if I get really bored perhaps I'll send a note to John Long at WXIX and ask him ;) .... Sorry, but with only 2 posts from you here to go on, we have no idea what your "insider credientals are", you could be a 10 year old kid spreading mis-information on the internet for all we know.

Also, don't confuse some posters comments concerning the "alternate" Wikipedia WXIX article(such as WB19/etc) -- when we were dissucing it and dismissing much of it's "credibility", we were talking about it, not the comments in your post.

BTW, anyone can read AVSforum, including the "general public." Do a search for "Cincinnati+HDTV" on google for instance, and this thread will pop up .....

mlbUC

04-07-06, 01:51 PM

Thanks for the info...

I would have put money on it being 1997, but I would guess they have the correct info on their website.

WebHopperWeasel

04-07-06, 05:18 PM

Just noticed WKRC-DT is currently multicasting again. SD digital simulcast of analog on 12-2 with no audio currently .....

Audio was fixed today.

Weasel

jimp2244

04-07-06, 05:28 PM

WKRC is doing something well! Masters HD on 12-1 and Weather special coverage on 12-2. VERY NICE! Thank you!

Addition: It appears to be the USA HD coverage that WKRC is putting through on WKRC HD. It looks quite good and the last commercial break was all HD as well. The WKRC-TS 12-2 picture isn't bad either. If you took away the normal "12 blur" that seems to happen when they switch to local sources, I think it would look VERY good.

Addition2: Progam info (PSIP) for 12-2 says "deleted" ... interesting

Nitewatchman

04-07-06, 05:37 PM

Yes, as has been the case for the past several years, CBS/USA are providing the masters coverage, and CBS affiliates are "allowed" to run the early round USA coverage in HD. See the Masters threads in programming area at AVS for more info - You'll find more detailed info on the production there from Bob Ross of CBS.

I am noticing quite a bit of MPEG2 compression artifacts on WKRC-DT during bandwidth demanding content - on SD 12.2 as well as HD 12.1. concering the latter, such as during the shot they just had following the ball through the trees, in contrast, the next shot like that was beautiful on WHIO-DT ... Didn't think to pay much attention yesterday, as other than looking at WKRC-DT for a couple of seconds I had tuned to WHIO-DT ......

Anyhow, WHIO-DT Dayton has no multicasting, and Masters HD coverage on 7-1 currently -- Local weather graphics(warning maps+info tickers) are being inserted INTO HD .... They did however break in for "breaking weather info" coverage from the studios earlier, whearas WKRC had HD ...

Update : Attached is a crappy screenshot from digital camera of WHIO-DT+it's locally inserted "HD" weather graphics(and yes, this particular set has a deflection/geometry issue near bottom of screen ....) :

Nitewatchman

04-09-06, 12:45 PM

Noticed last night and currently 12.2 SD from WKRC-DT is "blank screen" - no decodable audio/video streams ...

MPEG2 program info/PSIP VCT info is still there, and is causing a "blank" 12.2 to show up on receiver here(Zenith HDV420) which updates it's PSIP info on stations everytime you tune to a different station .......

dusterscott

04-10-06, 07:33 AM

Bluestraw

04-10-06, 09:35 AM

Is anyone else getting lower signal strength on WXIX (ch. 29) since Saturday? All my other channels are fine, but this one is now flaky...

microbob

04-10-06, 11:30 AM

Is anyone else getting lower signal strength on WXIX (ch. 29) since Saturday? All my other channels are fine, but this one is now flaky...

WXIX-DT does seem to be a bit weaker than usual. It could be related to the storms that came through on Friday causing them to be on low power.

WebHopperWeasel

04-10-06, 12:06 PM

Bluestraw

04-10-06, 12:27 PM

WXIX-DT does seem to be a bit weaker than usual. It could be related to the storms that came through on Friday causing them to be on low power.
Anyone know any contact details for them to check it some more? I can't see any email addresses or anything on their website...

Nitewatchman

04-10-06, 12:30 PM

Nitewatchman

04-10-06, 12:46 PM

Anyone know any contact details for them to check it some more? I can't see any email addresses or anything on their website...

WXIX Numbers :

Main Phone :

513/421-1919

News Line 513/421-0119

They used to have some email addresses in a "contact the station" section up on their website, can't find it now though.

BTW, Have not noticed any problems with their signal up here. Solid 95~100% on the receiver's signal quality meter as usual.

Bluestraw

04-10-06, 12:50 PM

Currently we are back at full bandwith so there is not a 12.2 available. I will check into PSIP data still being there.

Weasel
Weasel,

I guess you work for WKRC! Do you happen to know what (if any) plans you have for installing DD5.1 equipment? I spoke to someone on the phone who didn't seem to know much, but said 'vaguely' they hoped for the end of this year...

Bluestraw

04-10-06, 12:51 PM

BTW, Have not noticed any problems with their signal up here. Solid 95~100% on the receiver's signal quality meter as usual.
Hmm, interesting. Both of us with reduced signal strength are in N KY. Wonder if that is relevant somehow.
Spoke to Paul at WXIX engineering - he said the antenna is showing good signal strength, but is going to check it out.

jimp2244

04-10-06, 11:13 PM

Weasel,

If you're thinking about adding/removing 12.2 depending on "circumstances" -- FWIW -- I'd think it might be better to leave the PSIP there for 12.2, as otherwise(unlike my Zenith receiver) I think some receivers might not "see it" when you add it(or may not "delete it" after you've removed it) unless a "channel scan" is performed - as I think some receivers may only update the VCT info on auto channel scans .... For instance 12.2 has continously been present on my Sony HDTV/internal receiver from months and months ago since that's the last time I "auto scanned" with it(at a time when 12.2 PSIP was active), I can selectively)(manually) "hide it" or "show it" in the channel "surf" list however ....

So, knowing that different receivers will act differently, how "dynamic" can station engineers be with changing broadcast "settings" such as adding/removing subchannels, changing bandwidth allocations, and changing broadcast format (1080i to 720p or to 480i, etc)?

A few examples come to mind. Lets say WLWT wants to broadcast three 4:3 480i programs during the day (news program, soap opera, and WeatherPlus). Then for evening primetime, they want to switch to one 16:9 1080i program + WeatherPlus at 4:3 480i. Is any of this possible?

That was a complex example. To simplify, let's use a channel that's currently not multicasting. Let's say WKRC wants to broadcast daytime 4:3 content at 480p (or some other 4:3 resolution), and then switch to 1080i for evening primetime. Could they do it?

A further example. Let's say it's after analog shutoff, and WLWT is currently showing Sunday Night Football in HD 1080i. Also pretend that WeatherPlus doesn't really exist. Unfortunately, tornadoes are coming. WLWT wants to throw a graphic on the HD channel saying "Tornado Warning: For continuing coverage, switch to 5-2". They bring up 5-2 (which only minutes ago did not exist (remember I said pretend WeatherPlus does not exist)) and then provide continuous storm coverage with good old Jim O'Brien and the Power of 5, letting uninterested viewers (most likely either in a bomb shelter or convinced that tornadoes don't exist) keep watching the football game. Is this possible? (assuming only 5-1 existed, and they add 5-2 only for special coverage)

rlp2955

04-11-06, 11:38 AM

So, Jim came out to my house this past Sunday to look at my setup. We hooked up the 8 bay channel master on the ground, removed the diplexer, and bam! ABC like a champ. Unfortunately, my dish is on one side of the house, and my TV's are on the other side...so to run the cables directly from the antenna to my TV's would require some "work" from the outside and inside that I am not sure I am wanting to do at this point. Especially given the fact that I will have locals over dish at some point...

So, bottom line, thanks to Jim for coming out and walking a newbie through the issues. Nice to place a name to the face.

Hey, I have heard that depending on where you live, DirecTV will give certain subscribers the national network feeds on HD (east coast?). I think I remember inputting my zip and was told it wasn't available to me. Any chance I could negotiate with them on that to get the national ABC channel for the time being?

Nitewatchman

04-11-06, 11:44 AM

So, knowing that different receivers will act differently, how "dynamic" can station engineers be with changing broadcast "settings" such as adding/removing subchannels, changing bandwidth allocations, and changing broadcast format (1080i to 720p or to 480i, etc)?

Good questions, and bear with me here, as they are difficult to answer -- I'll try to give it a shot without this getting TOO awfully long(it's still going to be long,sorry), however, and hopefully my response will also somewhat address the possible "examples" you also mentioned ....

I think one problem with adding/removing "subchannels" currently is as already mentioned, that some(many?) receiver models probably won't "notice", and may not be able to "implement" the change until the user performs a "channel scan". For a time, WCET-DT was doing it on a daily basis -- at night, they were "HD mode" (48.1 HD) with 2 SD subchannels (48.2 and 48.3), during the day, it was 4 SD channels (48.2~48.5). So, If you had a receiver which would only "see" the subchannels that had PSIP info up, if you autoscanned during the day, you got 48.2~48.5(48.1 would be missing unless you rescanned at night), if you autoscanned at night(until the next autoscan), you'd only see 48.1~48.3. I didn't have any problems whatsoever with it with my Zenith receiver(which again, looks at the MPEG program info and PSIP from the station everytime you tune to the station). 48.4 and 48.5 popped up during the day with it, and was gone at night, 48.1 was there at night, and gone during the day.

I think another problem is how it works out for cable/dbs carriage of the station. There are the changes to deal with(such as PID changes/additions in addition to the changing number of program services(subchannels), and my understanding is they don't generally like "blank" subchannels either.

I don't think changing bandwidth allocations is a problem if the station has the proper equipment. KET(WCVN-DT), and WPTO-DT/WPTD-DT do it on a daily/nightly basis among their program services(subchannels).

As for changing the Resolutions (broadcast format) -- Most engineers who have posted here on
AVSforum say that's a problem, as they say many receivers will "hang"/lock up when that happens. There's also the issue of how it would be handled for cable.

HOWEVER -- As you probably have noticed by now, KET (WCVN-DT Covington, KY+all the other KET digital statewide(KY) transmitters) have figured out a way to do it -- They are the *Only* broadcaster I know of that is doing anything like this, and they've been doing it every night(pretty much) since Early 2003 :

1). During Prime time(nightly), KET Runs PBS HD on KET4(54-4 on WCVN-DT Covington) and 2 SD subchannels - KET1/KET2 on 54-1 and 54-2 -- The PSIP/MPEG2 info is still "there" for all their other subchannels(54.3,54.5,54.6), but they are "Blank" when they are in "HD Mode". BTW, KET4 also transcodes PBS HD from 1080i to 720p for broadcast(720p is more "multicast friendly" than 1080i), and it's also per KET's schedule ( see here : http://www.ket.org/dtv/programs.htm )- it's time shifted, not the national PBS HD channel feed.

2. The rest of the time, KET4 (54-4 on WCVNDT) is 480i 4x3 SD format, with CPB/Annenburg channel. When they aren't in "HD mode" they have 6 SD services(subchannels) all are 480i 4x3. KET5+6 (54-5 and 54-6) are KY legislative coverage, and are only active with programming when KY general assembly is in session.

Using WCVN-DT as example -- The PSIP is allways there for all 6 services(subchannels) -- But, the "non-active" subchannels(54-3, 54-5 and 54-6) are "blank", and there are no decodable datastreams(audio/video) present when they are in HD mode. When they are in "SD mode", and at times the "subchannels" aren't active with programming(such as when KY general assmebly is not in session), They do run an transmitter ID screen on 54-3, 54-5/54-6.

From the User's point of view, it "appears" KET4 is "switching" ATSC formats from 704x480i(4x3_) to 1280x720p(16x9) every night at 8pm(7pm on sunday), and back from 1280x720p to 704x480i at 11pm nightly. And, that is exactly what appears to happen when you Tune to WCVN-DT 54-4 and watch what happens at 8pm or 11pm tonight. On my receiver's here, the "switch" is allways flawless, nary a frame of video or bit of audio is "dropped".

However, there is a little more to it actually "working" than "switching resolutions" on the KET4 "subchannel". In short, how it actually works involves switching the multiplex. KET engineer William Smith has explained exactly how they do it at the following posts - You should also find the discussion in thread at link(starting a few posts before the first link) among Foxeng, William+ myself of interest to some of your questions(bandwidth allocation for instance in addition to "switching" resolutions/formats) :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5305765&&#post5305765

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5306858&&#post5306858

mlbUC

04-11-06, 11:51 AM

Hey, I have heard that depending on where you live, DirecTV will give certain subscribers the national network feeds on HD (east coast?). I think I remember inputting my zip and was told it wasn't available to me. Any chance I could negotiate with them on that to get the national ABC channel for the time being?

Not likely, you would have to get a waiver from WCPO to do this. Also, from what I've read, HD feeds are not available in this manner, only SD.

terryfoster

04-11-06, 02:29 PM

National digital feeds are available, but only in areas that you can't receive the digital channel OTA. Some people in West Michigan are able to get the CBS national feed since they are outside of the WWMT-DT coverage area (and have a waiver).

jim tressler

04-11-06, 02:56 PM

no chance - the cincinnati stations dont give waivers - period.. especially in our neighborhood.. I tried 2 years ago.. lol

jim tressler

04-11-06, 02:58 PM

:) I enjoyed it! Nice to see another Cleveland fan around here..

How is the talk with the boss going about the cables :)

So, Jim came out to my house this past Sunday to look at my setup. We hooked up the 8 bay channel master on the ground, removed the diplexer, and bam! ABC like a champ. Unfortunately, my dish is on one side of the house, and my TV's are on the other side...so to run the cables directly from the antenna to my TV's would require some "work" from the outside and inside that I am not sure I am wanting to do at this point. Especially given the fact that I will have locals over dish at some point...

So, bottom line, thanks to Jim for coming out and walking a newbie through the issues. Nice to place a name to the face.

Hey, I have heard that depending on where you live, DirecTV will give certain subscribers the national network feeds on HD (east coast?). I think I remember inputting my zip and was told it wasn't available to me. Any chance I could negotiate with them on that to get the national ABC channel for the time being?

Nitewatchman

04-11-06, 03:02 PM

National digital feeds are available, but only in areas that you can't receive the digital channel OTA).

And, unless something has changed as I haven't kept up on this ---- : national HD network feeds via D* and E* are available in some markets and from some networks where the local affiliate is a Network owned and operated station. Currently, Columbus, OH market and NBC HD is one example, one which will probably likely change soon as NBC recently sold it's Columbus station(WCMH-DT - owned and operated by NBC) to another company.

We have no Network owned affiliates in Dayton or Cincinnati, therefore all of them are unlikely(as Jim said - no chance of it in other words) to grant a waiver for locations within the DMA where the signal can be received OTA. [following updated with corrections] Again, unless something has changed I believe at this point even if a wavier was granted due to OTA reception not being possible-*, it wouldn't be "required" to necessarily involve the digital station or "National" HD Network feed --- only the analog station/SD national feed in cases when there is no in-market network affiliate that is carried by the sat provider --- when there is a in-market network affiliate whose analog signal is carried, then it's available via the dish, and they are not required to also provide you with a HD feed via the dish, either from the local or a network HD feed .... I think that's what MLBUC was reffering to ...

* - It does happen in rare cases(such as when significant terrain issues are a "significant enough" problem) --- In which cases an engineer at the station(or someone contracted to do so - They can probably tell what they need to know for the most part via longely-rice propagation studies via software) would probably have to investigate it to see if a waiver is warrented. In this case, since rlp can receive WCPO with a UHF antenna(albeit the one model of UHF antenna out there that does offer somewhat decent gain/performance(but not necessarily directivity) on VHF) sitting on the ground, it's obvious reception of the involved station OTA isn't a problem ....

If you can receive the station adequetely with a properly orientated and installed directional antenna mounted 30ft above ground(and that's along the lines of what the rules on this specify), I believe the station is warranted in not issuing a waiver. The station needs it's local viewers and local adverstisers to be viable, and the station has the sole distribution rights within the market to the network's programming via their net/affiliation agreement .... They can't of course do anything about it(and it's perfectly legal as well) if you don't like how an "in market" station does things, and you can receive out-of-market stations(such as dayton) OTA via antenna .....

Shew, this stuff sure gets overly complicated at times!

------------------

Another thought -- Just an opinion -- but You know, it seems to me RLP should be able to hold DirecTV/it's installer "accountable" for doing such a poor job installing his OTA antenna in the first place, and they *should* come back out and do it correctly(including with a proper VHF+UHF antenna and no diplexing) without any additional fee required ....

jim tressler

04-11-06, 03:33 PM

the problem with directv is they do not gaurantee the hd local reception

Nitewatchman

04-11-06, 03:37 PM

Jim -- I don't think anyone could with 100% certianity in any given case -- However, what I was getting at is - regardless of any sort of lack of "guarentee" involved, that shouldn't "excuse" them for doing a poor job with their OTA install when reception *IS* easily achievable --

So, IMO -- They evidently did a poor job of what they DID do, my guess is probably because the installer didn't know much of what he was doing when it comes to OTA(for example -- using a UHF only antenna with extremely poor VHF performance when there are VHF stations of importance, and using Diplexing in this case/etc) .... Easily evidenced I think by how easy it was for you to get good reception with an antenna sitting on the ground ....

jim tressler

04-11-06, 03:44 PM

I agree - when I had my had installed 2 years ago- the cust service rep with d* stressed that ota was not gaurenteed :)

Bluestraw

04-11-06, 05:31 PM

Guys,

After my recent signal strength problems, I have decided to 'upgrade' to an antenna in the attic, versus the current indoor HDTVi. I am not competent to wire this up myself, so I've got TNT Pictures coming along next Tuesday....

I would really appreciate some advice to make sure I'm ready for the install. I'm in Crestview Hills, N KY, and so have a pretty strong signal already - but the guy on the phone told me they always use the same antenna, regardless of location. Surely this is overkill? Should I ask them to do something smaller, or just leave it alone?

Hopefully the days of fluctuating signals are soon gone!!

Nitewatchman

04-11-06, 06:12 PM

Bluestraw,

There is really no such thing as "overkill" with an antenna or "too much" antenna ... More gain for the antenna+directivity is almost allways a plus(that generally means a bigger antenna) - moreso likely the latter where your location and ability to reject multipath is concerned - probably especially so if you're putting it indoors in the attic .... And, the Small~Medium size VHF/UHF combo antennas pro installers such as TNT pictures use (such as Winegard PR7010 or PR7015) are an excellent choice for an outdoor or attic install for locations within 30~35 miles or so of the transmitters, and when there are VHF and UHF stations of interest ...

As far as the "fluctuating signals" go however - as you say hopefully you'll get lucky and it'll work "well enough" in the attic, however getting the antenna outdoors(such as on the roof) is almost allways a good idea ..... That's not saying indoor installs don't often work, as they can and often do given the right "circumstances", it is just impossible to predict whether or not those circumstances are going to be "good enough" for dropout free reception in any given case .... That you should have strong signals at your distance from Cincinnati stations should definitely be a plus where the attic and attenuation of signals indoors is concerned, but Multipath is a entirely different story, and is usually much worse indoors, and also often actually WORSE when you are closer to the towers .... IF all you are shooting through is shingles and wood in the attic, that can be a plus multipath wise ... Insulation is OK as well unless it has that foil "back" on it, which is a real problem .... Also, Given your location, and that the antenna(generally) will probably be aimed north, you could probably pick up at least some Dayton stations with it up on the roof(probably not below it, but hard to say) as well.

Also -- Without a rotor, while it might be possible to "aim the antenna" between the Downtown Cincy towers+WCVN tower(perhaps especially if you put it outdoors, as multipath is often much more of an issue in the attic or anywhere indoors) --- For best results for reception of KET (WCVN-DT) you'd probably also want to either add a rotor(probably won't work practically in the attic, and which would probably be overly inconvienient in this circumstance, anyway) OR even better -- add a small 2nd, UHF only antenna(such as a channel 24 yagi) for best reception of WCVN-DT (KET/PBS HD/etc) - WCVN tower is pretty much East of you near Taylor Mill, KY, while everything else in Dayton+Cincinnati is pretty much North of you ....

So, the Best and most "convienent" way to do that would likely be be with A small Channel 24 only Yagi(or probably just about any UHF Only antenna really - maybe even your current Terk antenna in the attic(even if the new antenna is installed outdoors and if it receives WCVN-DT just fine now if properly orientated)) antenna could be "combined" onto the same feedline with your "main" VHF/UHF antenna using a bandpass filter/notch filter such as a Channel Master "jointenna" tuned for channel 24 - although the jointenna(which is inexpenisive but often very effective) specifically will also degrade reception of WOTH-LP 25 Cincinnati(it significantly "effects" 2 UHF channels on each side , and slightly effects 3 channels away) probably WKEF 22(analog) dayton, as well as WBDT 26(analog) Dayton to some extent .... WBDT(WB HD currently, future CW HD affiliate) will be moving it's digital to 26 after analog shut off - and, it looks like there might potentially be a low power digital on 22 in Dayton after analog shut off, and it's probably likely WOTH will convert to digital on 25, but who knows, they could seek a 2nd digital companion channel instead/and or end up on another channel ... Channel 23 might also be a likely canditate to be used by a local station someday, for instace if WBQC or WOTH seek(and are granted) a 2nd digital companion channel for remainder of transistion .....

A "jointenna" allows only the signal from one channel (more or less, as again 2 channels to either side are effected significantly, the third channel away effiected slightly) such as channel 24 to pass from the one antenna, and "blocks" signal(in this case likely with a lot of multipath included since the "main" antenna will be aimed North) coming in on 24 off your other antenna ...

Unfortunetly I Don't know if the TNT pictures installers are "familiar" with such things as notch filters/bandpass filters, jointennas and single channel Yagi's and the like, although they *should* be ..... for more info -- Check out some of AVSform member AntAltMike's Jointenna+filter/trap related posts, he is a Pro OTA antenna installer that installs MATV systems(master OTA antenna systems for Multi-dwelling units) in large apartment complexes/etc in Washington DC area ...

If necessary for WCVN-DT reception and if for instance you want to get some use out of the Terk HDTVi(say in the attic) however, you could order a Channel 24 jointenna(# 0585-1 - specify channel 24) from here ( http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/joiners.htm ) and install it yourself later on, after the TNT pictures install ....

Hope this helps, let us know how it goes with the TNT pictures install ...

Bluestraw

04-11-06, 06:28 PM

Jeff,

Thank you - helpful as ever :) :)

I have my doubts they will be very knowledgeable about jointennas, so I'll keep it in mind for later I think. Unfortunately I have no chance to put this outdoors - let's just say the rest of the household will not allow it! So I'm going to shoot for the attic and hope for the best. Currently I'm getting very decent CBS, NBC & ABC (only very rare dropouts), with the antenna pointed through a wall + a garage, so with a bigger more directional antenna further 'up', I feel good about it. Thanks for the clarification about the 'overkill' - I'll just let them do their stuff then. He did 'guarantee' this, so I'll be sure not to let them go until 100% satisfied at the quality.

With any luck I can then add a splitter for another feed. Am I right in thinking that if it works fine on 1 feed, and then I want to simply split in the same room for 2 ouputs, then I can recover any signal loss by a small amp? Or perhaps I will have enough signal for a passive split if I'm lucky...

Will definitely report back on my install!

Nitewatchman

04-11-06, 06:53 PM

You'll probably have much more than enough signal from the Cincinnati stations to use a passive splitter, even with antenna in attic .... But yeah, if necessary a amp could help, just be careful about the "overload" thing ... You have some reason to be optimisitic concerning an attic install from your location, as for instance I can tell you that AVSforum member DrDon(He now lives in Detroit area) had good luck from Florence(he was "on a hill" though) with such antennas in his attic, he even pulled in Most of the Dayton stations with a preamp added in the line .... YMMV ...

And yeah -- on their "guarentee", be sure to tell them you'll take them up on that if necessary and that you'll also be calling them back if(hopefully not, but it's a very real possibility) you start getting dropouts when the leaves come on the trees, or when the wind starts blowing the trees around around, or when aircraft flying over/near your house cause dynamic multipath reflections ;)

tvnick

04-13-06, 12:42 PM

Nitewatchman

04-13-06, 08:14 PM

Your idea about adding a sub-channel during a Tornado Warning is really a good one and that could be accomplished fairly easily.

Yes, there are many great ideas which *could* potentially work -- I think especially If receiver manufactuers had been required to follow certian standards - such as concerning receiver implementation "standards" for PSIP, or if all receivers firmware could be easily upgraded "via the airwaves" ..... As another example, I'd think you could probably even use ATSC's directed channel change capability to automatically switch a receiver in a certian "zip code" to a stream with severe weather warnings for their locality, or If receivers had been made to support it(they weren't), Severe Weather "pop up" info could have also have been implemented via the 708 captions .....

However, the "reality" is ..... as I mentioned in my earlier response to JMP2244's comments, some (many?) receivers won't likely be able to "tune" to the new subchannel until the user performs a auto-scan, unless it's a "permanent" part of the stream, and other than the latter I'm not sure that works very well in a "tornado warning" situation ...

My USDTV/Hisense DB-2010 is one example of such a receiver, another is the ATSC receiver internal to my Sony HDTV. For example, with those receivers back when WCET-DT was changing their PSIP daily (48.2~48.5 during the day, 48.1~48.3 streams at night) --- in order to decode or have 48.4+48.5 "show up" at all, I'd have to "rescan" every day If I had previouslly scanned for channels at night when WCET-DT was in HD mode, and then in order to see 48.1 again, I'd have to "Rescan" every night ... Well, that was 100% the case with the Hisense receiver, with the Sony, at least I could "manually" tune directly to RF channel/MPEG2 program # and it will allways would work as long as there was a decodable stream there (34.x in this case) ...

Nitewatchman

04-16-06, 07:26 PM

FYI :

#1). Have updated the first "info" post of this thread with current info. Anyone can feel free to PM with me with any relevant additional info or corrections.

#2). Beginning tonight(Sunday 4/16) at 7pm and at this point it looks like Until July -- when they are in "HD mode"(primetime nightly) KET4 (WCVN-DT/etc) is running PBS HD Feed in "real time" rather than running a time-shifted schedule of PBS HD/widescreen SD programming as has been the case for some time. In other words, It will now usually be the same PBS HD/widescreen schedule in prime time on KET4 as WCET-DT and WPTD-DT Dayton are airing - Which does make for a nice HD PQ comparision among these stations, especially as KET4 is transcoding PBS HD feed to 720p.

More info/details on this KET4 programming change can be found at following URL, in Lexington, KY thread :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7487005&&#post7487005

Bill R (# 2)

04-17-06, 09:25 PM

hd_newb

04-17-06, 10:45 PM

Is anyone having trouble getting Cincinnati's WXIX-DT (19-01) at times? I have been hearing that some (OTA) HD receivers are gettting a good signal (85-90) but there is no picture or sound. WXIX is aware of the problem and looking into it.

Oh yes...just found out my MCE box didn't record "24" on channel 19 because its coming in as 29-3 right now. Great, thanks WXIX. I believe this is the second time in less than a month that WXIX did "something" during the day on Monday that screws with those who record off the digital channel.

mr1213

04-17-06, 10:48 PM

Yes, Bill. That exactly describes the problem I saw tonight and two weeks ago in the 24 time slot. I had a 90 signal strength on both my DirecTV and Dish receivers, but no sound or picture. I had to watch 24 in HD through my cable TV receiver.

microbob

04-17-06, 10:53 PM

Yep, I'm getting XIX-DT 29-3. PSIP is screwed up again. I wish they would put more resources into WXIX-DT. I guess they still have separate control rooms for Analog and Digital. It would also be nice if they could insert a small local bug in place of that generic big blue Fox Network logo. Very annoying to look at during network programming.

ItzMe

04-18-06, 08:15 AM

My 19-1 is also missing, but I get HD on 29-3. This is on my HDTIVO HR10-250. Does anyone know if WXIX is fixing this? I understand its the PSIP info that is missing, or something like that.

chrisdow

04-18-06, 09:20 AM

I too have missed - (!@#$%^&!) - 24 TWICE on my HD Tivo on 19-1 in the past 3 weeks! Is there a way to safeguard against this? Have U tivo-guys re-seasoned passed to 29-3 now? -with no PSIP info, can U do that? -What are they doing over there? -it's only the # 1 show on TV & they're tweaking around???

hongca

04-18-06, 09:40 AM

My HD Tivo also recorded a "blank screen" when set to record 24 on 19-1. Luckily my wife was able to record 24 on our "regular" Tivo off of T-W cable or we would have missed last night's episode.

Chuck

Bill R (# 2)

04-18-06, 10:04 AM

My 19-1 is also missing, but I get HD on 29-3. This is on my HDTIVO HR10-250. Does anyone know if WXIX is fixing this? I understand its the PSIP info that is missing, or something like that.

I just talked to Paul Smith, WXIX's engineer, and they are aware of the problem and are working on it. He said that they know that the problem (this time) occured yesterday morning and that it has something to do with the VCT (virtial channel table) but, at this time, he did not know exactly what is causing the problem and when it will be fixed. If I get an update on the problem I will post it here.

Thanks to everyone on your posts on this problem. I thought it might have someting to do with my model HD receiver but it looks like it is effects other models as well.

Nitewatchman

04-18-06, 10:51 AM

Just checked, WXIX-DT PSIP/VCT is currently fixed at 10:45am - it's now remapping to 19.x. At least it only took them about a day to get it fixed this time, thanks to Bill for calling them.

And I agree, that big Blue Fox bug is getting old, except that it does give you a quick idea about your overscan as I believe it does pretty much go all the way to the bottom right and side right edge of the frame. I think that's the default bug for the Fox splicer, in which case they are the only Fox affiliate I've seen so far that doesn't have their own Splicer inserted bug ... There is a A small white Fox56 for WDKY-DT Lexington, Fox45 for WRGT-DT Dayton, Fox28 for WTTE-DT Columbus/etc.

jim tressler

04-18-06, 11:08 AM

good thing I back up tivo it.. got home late last night at watched it upstairs.. I'll bet my hd tivo's recording of it is hosed too :(

Inundated

04-19-06, 01:44 PM

The CW Network will land, as speculated by some of us, on a digital subchannel of WKRC/12:

http://broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6326165.html?display=Breaking+News

jim tressler

04-19-06, 02:17 PM

damn.. there goes cw in hd, and there goes quality cbs in hd in cincinnati.. please. please WHIO - stay 1 digital channel.. lol

Oh crap... don't tell me that we will start to see 12-2 and 12-3 now.. "The newest affiliates are WKRC Cincinnati, the CBS affiliate in market no. 34, which will carry The CW on one of its digital channels; KUWB Salt Lake City, market 36; and KASN Little Rock, Ark, 57."

The CW Network will land, as speculated by some of us, on a digital subchannel of WKRC/12:

http://broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6326165.html?display=Breaking+News

jimp2244

04-19-06, 03:40 PM

You are all going to have to get used to the Subchannels since in the future almost ALL of the local channels will be using the subchannel to carry actual programming instead of "test" content. We are doing our best to ensure that the HD content looks as well as it can considering the subchannel's will be getting used more in the future.

Weasel

That is from Jan 17, 2006. I wonder if he knew then what we're discussing now, about CW being on a WKRC-DT subchannel.

This makes absolutely no sense to me. There are much better options for CW in Cincinnati (WBQC) and really WSTR should have been the CW affilliate, but instead they're my network tv (which sounds like it will last about 5 or 6 months). I realize there are corporate forces at work here, but this is awful.

:rolleyes: Did you hear that? That's the sound of antenna rotors in Cincinnati turning toward Dayton.

microbob

04-19-06, 03:44 PM

WBQC would not have had CW in HD this fall either. I was hoping to watch CW in HD but it doesn't look like that will happen. I give the MyTVNetwork less than a year before it folds. We'll have 2 independent TV stations in Cincinnati.

tvbobn

04-19-06, 05:08 PM

My sources were wrong, but this time I saw the press release, the fall WKRC-DT will carry the new CW. But NO HD. :(

Inundated

04-19-06, 08:50 PM

Again, no HD on CW from either WKRC's subchannel, nor would it have been if WBQC got the network. The only way you'd get OTA HD is if WSTR/64 had picked up CW, which they did not due to Sinclair. So, you all can gripe about it all you want, but this is basically WSTR's fault... or rather, the fault of their penny-pinching owner, one of the worst broadcast TV operators in America.

However, with Time Warner's involvement as half-owner of the network, don't be surprised if they provide an HD feed of CW to at very least their own cable systems. I know it's not ideal, but when WSTR went to My Network TV, there was no other choice. WBQC would have had to have done the same thing (set up an HD cable feed), even if they'd have spent that money, since they're an analog LPTVer with no digital channel.

terryfoster

04-20-06, 07:21 AM

jimp2244

04-20-06, 09:04 AM

An Enquirer article today also confirms what we've been discussing:

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060420/BIZ01/604200321/1076

Yes, it does seem to be mostly WSTR's fault. I could see within two years one of two things happening: Either WSTR dies, or they work out a switch to CW. I guess it really doesn't matter as both My Network TV and CW will both probably not be any good.

I think the real problem is WKRC somehow thinking that it would be a good idea for them to put CW on a subchannel. The only rationale I can see them having is that they think that they cater to a cable audience, and that they don't "give a sh--" about the OTA audience. We've already had one of their engineers pretty much confirming their feelings about this, calling the WKRC transmitter tower a huge lightning rod and wishing he didn't have to "deal with" it.

mlbUC

04-20-06, 09:53 AM

I can on imagine how bad HD will look on WKRC-DT now... call me glad to be in Dayton and getting the WHIO-DT feed.

microbob

04-20-06, 12:16 PM

I think what's happened to CW is a strong reflection of its market power here in Cincinnati. Yes some of us, not me, do watch the WB and maybe UPN, but it appears not enough people watch to justify a major affiliate.

-Captain Obvious

If WBQC was a full powered station, CW would have chosen them as the affiliate for Cincinnati. Its the fact that given the size of the Cincinnati TV market we are short of full powered OTA TV signals when you compare a market like Louisville which has both a full power WB and UPN affiliates.

Nitewatchman

04-20-06, 10:09 PM

Did you hear that? That's the sound of antenna rotors in Cincinnati turning toward Dayton.

And back towards Cincinnati if you wanted to watch CBS HD tonight (so far) ...

I just *knew* you guys were going to end up jinxing something ;)

Inundated

04-20-06, 11:33 PM

If WBQC was a full powered station, CW would have chosen them as the affiliate for Cincinnati.

If WBQC was a full-power station, Elliott Block wouldn't have had to have fought with Time Warner to get full-time carriage of his UPN affiliate...as he'd have a "must carry" right to be on cable.

If pigs had wings...

You know. :D

Nitewatchman

04-21-06, 09:03 PM

Well, actually, Pigs do have wings in Cincinnati - If only "The big Guy" had known ..... ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_pigs_fly

http://www.glasssteelandstone.com/US/OH/CincinnatiFlyingPigs.html

Another nice pic here :

http://www.fpqrp.com/pighist.html

We even have the "Flying pig marathon" :

http://www.flyingpigmarathon.com/

----------------------------------------------------------

Update: Oh -- BTW, noticed WKRC-DT removed the PSIP for the blank 12.2 sometime today ....

Nitewatchman

04-22-06, 01:28 PM

Cincy Post has an interesting article today concerning the CW/WKRC multicast deal. It includes comments from Elliot Block, as well as some comments concerning DTV+multicasting the other stations are doing. Its currenlty available here :

http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060422/LIFE/604220301/1005

Tip of my hat to Elliot Block ..... Hopefully in a couple of weeks(when FCC opens the filing window for it in the first part of May) we'll see WBQC applying to seek a 2nd digital companion channel ....

Looking forward to seeing what WBQC comes up with, as well as what sort of stuff they'll be doing given the new studios they are working on .....

As for some of the comments on multicasting in the article ... eh, never mind ....

Inundated

04-22-06, 02:00 PM

I question some of the assumptions Mr. Bird made in the article.

"40 percent" of Cincinnati TV viewers will be able to get the new CW channel? What's the cable/satellite penetration in the Cincinnati market? I find it hard to believe it's that low.

He also seems to think the channel will land on digital cable tiers (like some of the other multicast stations, like the weather subchannels). I'd make the assumption that his thought is incorrect, and that they'll push to get CW on a low-numbered analog channel.

terryfoster

04-22-06, 02:54 PM

Inundated,
You're assuming that TWC will be allowed to down rez the channel to an analog format.

Bluestraw

04-23-06, 08:01 AM

Morning all!

Has anyone else lost signal this morning on WLWT? Either something is up at their end, or my new antenna is broken already :(

Update @ 9.30am - signal back. Could it be some sort of Sunday maintenance? I think I saw this sometime before...

Bill R (# 2)

04-23-06, 11:02 AM

Bluestraw,

The local stations seem to have a fair amount of problems with their digital signals. Sometimes the problem is caused by their PSIP data being bad (as noted in the previous posts) and other times their digital transmitter is down for some reason. What amazes me is that several times I have called a local station when I was not getting a signal and they didn't realize that their station was down (and I DID talk to an engineer). You would think that someone at the station would notice that before a viewer did.

Nitewatchman

04-23-06, 11:52 AM

jimp2244

04-23-06, 01:12 PM

Speaking of which -- Is anyone else currently getting a bit of "junk" in WLWT 5 Analog video signal? It looks a lot like the "slop" that might happen with interference with an analog microwave STL ... I first noticed it sometime yesterday, trying to figure out if it is in their signal, or a local interference issue here(If so, it's never happened before) .... The video signal(including the upconverts) from the DT on 5.1 is fine ..

Not sure if this is what you mean, but I am getting diagonal lines on WLWT 5 analog... Picture is crystal clear other than the lines. I also see diagonal lines on WTDN 2 analog and WHIO 7 analog, but not on WCPO 9 analog or WKRC 12 analog. These lines are not normally there...

Nitewatchman

04-23-06, 01:58 PM

Bluestraw

04-23-06, 03:01 PM

Bluestraw,

How did it go with the antenna install ?

In the end, I managed to fix something up myself instead of calling out the 'professionals'! I found that I had a dodgy connection on the antenna (a Terk HDTVi) and that was the cause of my signal problems. I got this swapped, connected the new one and suddenly my signal strengths were all much higher, with no more problems on WXIX. Been rock solid now for the whole week, and the PC signal meter utility I use is showing values I never used to get near. Recordings are 100% dropout free - so indeed I must have a great signal since this is pointing through a wall + garage. Only small problem is the occasional glitch when someone walks right next to the antenna, but it's right in the corner out the way so that's very rare.

I do realise that the indoor situation is still something of a gamble, and I'll keep a close watch on things. Right now I don't need a second feed, but if I do then I think the attic is the way to go - with such 'perfect' reception on this little antenna, I imagine the signal in the attic would be pretty powerful... Only trouble is that I'm not competent for DIY, otherwise I'd put the HDTVi up there now and then it really would be 'out of the way'.

Nitewatchman

04-23-06, 03:19 PM

..... I found that I had a dodgy connection on the antenna (a Terk HDTVi) and that was the cause of my signal problems. I got this swapped, connected the new one and suddenly my signal strengths were all much higher, with no more problems on WXIX. Been rock solid now for the whole week, and the PC signal meter utility I use is showing values I never used to get near. Recordings are 100% dropout free - so indeed I must have a great signal since this is pointing through a wall + garage.

Good news!

with such 'perfect' reception on this little antenna, I imagine the signal in the attic would be pretty powerful...

Not necessarily .... For example, An attic can easily sometimes be a worse spot multipath+signal attenuation wise than a "sweet spot" downstairs(where the antenna is also more easily accessabile should it ever need any "adjustment") .. such as(generally speaking) for example - near a window facing the towers ... OTOH, people walking near the antenna and effecting reception isn't likely to be as much of an issue in the attic .... In other words, if it's working where it is+providing 100% reliable reception at all times for all the stations you want to receive, no reason to "fix it" if it ain't broke ...

Bluestraw

04-23-06, 03:43 PM

Not necessarily .... For example, An attic can easily sometimes be a worse spot multipath+signal attenuation wise than a "sweet spot" downstairs(where the antenna is also more easily accessabile should it ever need any "adjustment") .. such as(generally speaking) for example - near a window facing the towers ... OTOH, people walking near the antenna and effecting reception isn't likely to be as much of an issue in the attic .... In other words, if it's working where it is+providing 100% reliable reception at all times for all the stations you want to receive, no reason to "fix it" if it ain't broke ...

Yeah, I agree completely with that! My wife is always telling me that I should just 'stop playing' when something's right, but I sometimes don't know where to stop! I will just enjoy the good reception that I'm getting now, and leave well alone for the time being.

However, I have a feeling in my case that the antenna would be at least as good, since right now I'm pointing through a wall + car in garage + garage wall, and the antenna is in a room with no window and 3 PCs, so if I can get a good signal there I think I could get one anywhere! Maybe it would even be easier if I do need a second input to get a second $35 HDTVi - I tried splitting the current one but that's asking a bit too much for it!

jimp2244

04-23-06, 04:33 PM

Diagonal "squiggly" lines usually indiciate interference from an FM carrier(which can also happen via intermod from a "overloaded" preamp/tuner). Update : See here, including the screenshot/examples of FM interference : http://www.kyes.com/antenna/interference/fm/fmfilter.html

It's difficult to descirbe, but what I'm getting are "mostly" horizontal lines, *somewhat* similar but of a different quality than you would get with co-channel interference from another NTSC signal. It's probably not quite significant enough that I could get it to show up with a screenshot.

Although it doesn't "look" like it(no sparkles or "rolling bars/etc) --- Could be some sort of power line/electrical interference I suppose, although I'm not really getting this elsewhere on Lo-VHF (such as WAVE 3 Louisville). I tried different antennas/etc. so it doesn't appear to be something odd going on with my setup. I might imagine this might also be the sort of thing I might get if they started running BPL on VHF in my area, or if they ever do something really stupid and allow unlicensed wireless devices to share spectrum on the TV bands ....

I don't believe what I am seeing is the squiggly/FM interference. The lines I see are straight. Sometimes they are horizontal and sometimes they are slightly diagonal (usually still close to horizontal, never more than 45 degrees). The picture seems to shift in and out, and the lines dont' always show up, but it is difficult to get a "perfect" picture on WLWT, which normally is very easy to do. I took some pictures of the screen but they turned out very bad and won't be much help.

Nitewatchman

04-23-06, 04:53 PM

I don't believe what I am seeing is the squiggly/FM interference. The lines I see are straight. Sometimes they are horizontal and sometimes they are slightly diagonal (usually still close to horizontal, never more than 45 degrees). The picture seems to shift in and out, and the lines dont' always show up, but it is difficult to get a "perfect" picture on WLWT, which normally is very easy to do. I took some pictures of the screen but they turned out very bad and won't be much help.

Hmm .. Not seeing anything "diagonal" really, but perhaps we are seeing the same thing. Hope we aren't getting too far OT here, since these aren't digital stations we're taling about ...

Managed to get a screenshot (with digital camera) of WLWT 5 analog- Which I've attached below --- The lines I'm getting currently do show up in this pic to some extent in the "mid-sections" of the Bull . The "lines" are actually present all across the screen although it isn't apparent from the screen shot, but the lines you see across parts of the bull is pretty much what it looks like ..... Note that I increased Gamma with photo editing software in order for the lines to show up a little better ... If there are any diagonal lines visable in the shot, it's moire pattern, an artifact which often results when taking a pic of a direct-view CRT screen with a camera -- I tried to reduce that as much as possible however by slightly "defocusing" ....

BTW - another current issue with another analog station I've been seeing the past several days is that it looks like WOTH-LP 25 Cincinnati is having some problems -- I've seen this before from them(back when WBQC was on 25) several years ago -- It's intermittant, and looks exactly like what would happen if say, you had a bad video connection/cable with say RCA plugs and a composite video connection.

Inundated

04-23-06, 06:33 PM

BTW - another current issue with another analog station I've been seeing the past several days is that it looks like WOTH-LP 25 Cincinnati is having some problems -- I've seen this before from them(back when WBQC was on 25) several years ago -- It's intermittant, and looks exactly like what would happen if say, you had a bad video connection/cable with say RCA plugs and a composite video connection.

Isn't that what Elliott Block uses all over the building? Consumer RCA plugs and composite video? ;)

Heh. Sorry...

Nitewatchman

04-23-06, 07:07 PM

Update - The "Lines" are (currently)now gone here from WLWT 5 analog, hopefully it will stay that way ...

Isn't that what Elliott Block uses all over the building? Consumer RCA plugs and composite video? ;)

Whatever they are doing currently where WBQC-CA 38 is concerned, I hope they can keep it up. Depending upon the source material, the video quality from 38 is often excellent(well, for NTSC SD anyway) these days. For some reason, I especially notice how good it looks during programming shot on film -- such as Happy Days, Magnum P.I. - The video stuff - such as Cosby or "Different World" looks pretty good on there as well. For instance, It certianly blows away WKRC-DT's SD upconverts(upconverted to 1080i for broadcast on their digital station!), especially the local news ... Local news on WLWT(analog or digital) on the other hand looks outstanding these days. And yes, WBQC actually runs *real* programming during the hours TW isn't carrying their signal ....

BTW, NTSC video via analog OTA (or analog cable) *IS* composite video .... Also, I used that example as only a means to describe what I'm getting from them, not to describe what the actual problem WOTH is having might be .....

Update: Looking at it a little more closely, it appears that the WOTH-LP problem may perhaps be on the transmission side (transmitter, transmission line/antenna/etc) .. As when the "what looks like a poor connection" happens, at times it appears like the signal is just slightly weaker, as it's adding just a tad bit of "snow" to my reception of them here. I recall the same thing happening the last time this was an issue on 25, about 3~4 years ago, and at first thinking it might be an issue on my end(which wasn't/isn't the case) ....

Nitewatchman

04-24-06, 03:03 PM

WSTR+WKRC enter into 10pm News share in Cincinnati -- Sinclair Press release here :

http://www.sbgi.net/press/release_2006424_158.shtml

Info on WKRC website as well :

http://www.wkrc.com/News/Local/story.aspx?content_id=48E842A5-5C23-4946-8B05-2E8A98F8D1FB

Did notice WKRC announced the CW affiliation on the news the other night, nothing about it I can find on their website. Also, the following "HDTV" links on WKRC website have been broken for quite some time(even though they still show up in Google search or a "search this site" from WKRC's website).

http://www.wkrc.com/hdtv/default.aspx

http://www.wkrc.com/hdtv/receiving_hdtv.aspx

Bill R (# 2)

04-24-06, 08:38 PM

WSTR+WKRC enter into 10pm News share in Cincinnati

This is not good news for the Cincinnati area. All we are going to get is a water-downed version of WKRC's 11 PM news at 10 PM. Quite frankly, I would rather have seen ANYONE other than clear channel enter into an agreement with WSTR to do a 10 PM news program.

jimp2244

04-24-06, 08:52 PM

WSTR+WKRC enter into 10pm News share in Cincinnati

Interesting stuff. It will also be interesting to see if WKRC is able to maintain its "number 1" rating at the 11pm time slot, considering people will be able to catch it an hour earlier now.

Also, I was watching the Reds game today and just wondering, why don't they put the Reds over the air? I somewhat understand why they moved to cable, but now with digital channels, I would think it would be more likely to happen. I'm not sure how much "affiliation" that Fox 19 and Fox Sports Net have, but I assume it's more than the other local stations so I'd use them as an example. They could take The Tube off the air for the 4 ours or so to show the reds on 19.2 in SD and then leave the Fox network programming on 19.1. For big games or nights when the Fox network is showing re-runs, they could show the Reds in HD on 19.1 and the Fox programming on 19.2.

One of the things that made me think about this was the fact that I'd love to ditch cable and go completely over the air, but two things keep me from doing that: ESPN and FSN. Maybe "a-la-carte" cable IS the way to go... :)

This kind of thing would be great, although we will continue to have the issue of picture quality. I'm starting to think that ATSC could have been designed better. I think that it really should have been made expandable after analog shutoff. The 6mHz bandwidth is not large enough for good multiplexing. I think the standard should have been designed to fit in the current 6mHz allocations that analog channels and digital channels currently get, but should have been made so that after analog shutoff, all of the channels would change to something like 10mHz. We don't need all of the channels out there, and the fact that we've got both analog and digital stations coexisting right now proves that. So, less channels, with more bandwidth allocation makes more sense to me. I realize there are ramifcations such as the fact that it would affect the transmission equipment greatly, especially the transmitting antennas. It's too late for this anyway, but just thinking of what could have been...

Inundated

04-24-06, 10:06 PM

Interesting stuff. It will also be interesting to see if WKRC is able to maintain its "number 1" rating at the 11pm time slot, considering people will be able to catch it an hour earlier now.

I presume this deal means WKRC is NOT going to mount a 10 PM cast on its new CW digital subchannel? Interesting...

terryfoster

04-25-06, 07:35 AM

Also, I was watching the Reds game today and just wondering, why don't they put the Reds over the air? I somewhat understand why they moved to cable, but now with digital channels, I would think it would be more likely to happen. I'm not sure how much "affiliation" that Fox 19 and Fox Sports Net have, but I assume it's more than the other local stations so I'd use them as an example.

Think of WXIX-DT as anything but FOX since they are not O&O by FOX so you end up with very little affiliation with FSN. Many teams are moving to their own cable channel (see Mets, Yankees, Indians, etc) because they can't get local carriage. Personally I don't think the ratings are strong enough for local stations to spend the money to broadcast games.

If you're intrestested in ala-carte TV then you may want to check out WWW.MLB.TV

jimp2244

04-25-06, 07:55 AM

If you're intrestested in ala-carte TV then you may want to check out WWW.MLB.TV

Local blackout restrictions would mean that I wouldn't get any Reds games that were on FSN... which means I wouldn't get 2/3 of the games. Yuck.

Plus, for the price of an MLB.TV subscription, I could get basic cable which includes FSN and ESPN.

mlbUC

04-25-06, 08:22 AM

Actually, you can't watch any reds games live on MLB.TV, all must be watched on delay.

• Local Live Blackout: ALL LIVE MLB.TV games will be blacked out in both teams' home telecast markets and in Japan.

This is all based on IP address, so even if your billing address is in California you won't be able to watch the Reds live on MLB.TV over the internet in Cincinnati.

jim tressler

04-25-06, 08:42 AM

Its possible if you use an IP proxy :)

of course then you screw yourself out of where ever your proxy is :)

go Tribe!!

mlbUC

04-25-06, 08:47 AM

Its possible if you use an IP proxy :)

of course then you screw yourself out of where ever your proxy is :)

heh, fair point.

psm0110

04-25-06, 09:24 AM

Think of WXIX-DT as anything but FOX since they are not O&O by FOX so you end up with very little affiliation with FSN. Many teams are moving to their own cable channel (see Mets, Yankees, Indians, etc) because they can't get local carriage. Personally I don't think the ratings are strong enough for local stations to spend the money to broadcast games. I wrote all the local stations, the Reds and FSN about this a couple years ago. There was no interest from anyone, except WCPO, which just said it would be something to look into in the future. Everyone else just flat out said no. FSN is very very loosely associated with Fox, its parent is a cable media holding company and likely has no interest promoting broadcast DTV, so first you'd have to terminate that contract. Second you'd have to get the Reds on the idea, which may be possible under new ownership, but simply couldn't happen in years past. Third, you'd have to convince a local DTV that the ratings are there for at least a subchannel. I think the last hurdle is actually the most easily accomplished now. With The Tube and CW networks, subchannels are getting attention, an independent like WSTR (Sinclair stinginess noted) might go for it, maybe even WCPO would put their weather on hold.

Utimately it takes a winning team with good attendance and ratings to make it happen. I don't know the particulars, but I think the FSN contract is relatively long. Until then, with no AM radio in my car, and no cable at home, I can only read about baseball unless I'm at the game. It'd be nice just to have FM radio - I heard a Reds game on an Indiana affiliate once: Marty & Joe sounded incredible; you could make out details in the crowd noise ambience; I wanted to cry.

mlbUC

04-25-06, 09:42 AM

I can't believe you guys are promoting the use of more subchannels locally. Personally I want the HD to be true HD, not some bit starved HD crap that we have seen before.

I'm glad I can get WHIO-DT, because WKRC-DT will go down hill once the CW starts up. Hopefully WHIO doesn't fall into the same trap as WKRC/Clear Channel, I prefer top quality HD, not watered down HD.

jim tressler

04-25-06, 09:53 AM

Amen mlbUC!! I wish more would step up and complain about multicasting. I know someone that has personally met with Chris Shering (GM of WKRC) and told him of the negatives of multicasting - as well as their green tint. Hopefully more will do the same.

jim

jimp2244

04-25-06, 11:16 AM

This kind of thing would be great, although we will continue to have the issue of picture quality. I'm starting to think that ATSC could have been designed better. I think that it really should have been made expandable after analog shutoff. The 6mHz bandwidth is not large enough for good multiplexing. I think the standard should have been designed to fit in the current 6mHz allocations that analog channels and digital channels currently get, but should have been made so that after analog shutoff, all of the channels would change to something like 10mHz. We don't need all of the channels out there, and the fact that we've got both analog and digital stations coexisting right now proves that. So, less channels, with more bandwidth allocation makes more sense to me. I realize there are ramifcations such as the fact that it would affect the transmission equipment greatly, especially the transmitting antennas. It's too late for this anyway, but just thinking of what could have been...

Heh. I'm quoting myself. I was just doing some more wondering (I do a lot of that). I wonder if, after analog shutoff, if we could get DTV stations (that wish to do so) to go to effectively 12mHz. It may not even require any changes to standards. Lets take WLWT-DT which is on channel 35. Give them 36 as well. Have 35 remap to 5-1 (perfect 1080i HD). Then have 36 remap to 5-2 and 5-3 (720p new HD channel and 480p Weather Plus). From what I understand, co-channel broadcasting works well with DTV, especially if both transmit from the same tower, which obviously would be the case if each local station had two co-channels.

Nitewatchman

04-25-06, 11:32 AM

I think that it really should have been made expandable after analog shutoff.

Oh, it's very "expandable" and upgradable. More efficent codecs can be used with ATSC which could even potentially allow for TWO HD services per station(in a 6MHZ channel). The main Problem with that is, the vast, vast majority of receivers so far(and the ones still be made AFAIK) will only work with MPEG2, and "updgrading" those would be like having another DTV transistion within the one we are having, which is difficult enough!

We don't need all of the channels out there,

Actually, we do. Keep in mind, Channel 52-69 are being refarmed for other uses after analog shut off. Since digital is more "spectrum efficient"(for instance, digital stations can operate on 1st adjacent channels in the same market - analog stations can't), the planning(more or less) is/was such that *same*(more or less) number of digital stations will fit on channel 2-51 as the number of analog stations on channel 2-69 .... That being said, I expect it may turn out there may be room for a *few* more TV stations after analog shut off ...

to get an idea, Go here, do a "search by radius" query out to say, oh 150~200km, and punch in your location's Lat/Long coordinates and see what you get .....

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html

Take channel 8 for instance. You may see just "snow" most of the time ... However, within 100~150 miles or so of your location(and stations 100~150 miles apart can EASILY interfere with each other in portions of their service areas, and especially so during periods of enhanced signal propagation) --- The following full service/full power stations broadcast on channel 8 :

WISH 8 Indianapolis (CBS)
WBNA-DT 8 Louisville, KY ("I" formerly "pax" affiliate)
WLIO-DT 8 Lima, Ohio
WCHS 8 Huntington, W VA
WJW 8 Cleveland

During periods of enhanced signal propagation, it has been the case I've seen signals from the above stations on channel 8 (except WLIO-DT - I haven't seen that one yet, probably due to their current low power STA) at the same TIME(with a little antenna rotating) ... Most recently, just a few evenings ago(with a little antenna rotating), I was watching Indy Local news on WISH, then a little later on, a TV-Movie Shot in Cincinnati(Johnny Cash was an actor in that movie!) on one of WBNA-DT's(a "I" formerly Pax affiliate) subhchannels, then, later on WJW's Newscast ....

This isn't "common" just for channel 8, either. I keep hearing about them, but I don't really know where these "white spaces" and "unoccupied" channels actually are in our area, as I can't really find them ....

A even more extreme example is currently occuring with Columbus and Cincinnati, where there are several co-channel stations operating a bit "too close" for comfort during the transistion .... Again, you may not realize this from within Cincinnati -- But see what you get on Channel 10 from right between Cincinnati and Columbus (or say from Hillsboro area) ........

So, less channels, with more bandwidth allocation makes more sense to me.

Fewer channels would mean fewer stations, less programming. One exception might have been if you completely change the broadcast "model" in the U.S. ... Get rid of local broadcasters, and have SFN(single frequency networks - probably using one of the COFDM "systems" for the signal modulation ) that cover the entire U.S., with say -- CBS HD all on ONE channel - across the entire U.S. .... Local news, or broadcasters, however ... I don't think so .... Local weather alert info/EAS/EBS could have still been Implemented I'd think ...

Lets take WLWT-DT which is on channel 35. Give them 36 as well. Have 35 remap to 5-1 (perfect 1080i HD). Then have 36 remap to 5-2 and 5-3 (720p new HD channel and 480p Weather Plus).

One reason that specific example wouldn't work is because there is another station in Cincinnati that broadcasts on Channel 36 - TBN LP translator W36DG - As I posted earlier, they've filed with FCC to flash cut to digital on channel 36.

Right now, at my location - W36DG often suffers Co-channel interference from Full power analog station WTVQ 36, Lexington, KY ...... A few nights ago WTVQ was making it right THROUGH W36DG via a little enhanced signal propagation ...

mlbUC

04-25-06, 11:33 AM

Lets take WLWT-DT which is on channel 35. Give them 36 as well. Have 35 remap to 5-1 (perfect 1080i HD). Then have 36 remap to 5-2 and 5-3 (720p new HD channel and 480p Weather Plus).

I'd imagine they could do something of that sort, but at the same time the FCC will want higher licensing fees for giving them twice the bandwidth in the spectrum.

mlbUC

04-25-06, 11:40 AM

One reason that specific example wouldn't work is because there is another station in Cincinnati that broadcasts on Channel 36 - TBN LP translator W36DG - As I posted earlier, they've filed with FCC to flash cut to digital on channel 36.

Right now, at my location - W36DG often suffers Co-channel interference from Full power analog station WTVQ 36, Lexington, KY ...... A few nights ago WTVQ was making it right THROUGH W36DG via a little enhanced signal propagation ...

35/36 may have been a bad example by jimp2244, but his point is that with the more efficient digital broadcasting allowing for stations to use adjacent frequencies, giving them twice the bandwidth might be an answer for some of this.

Another point is why doesn't WLWT, WKRC, WCPO, WXIX, etc., just start up a 2nd station, on its own frequency, that carries those networks? Instead of giving them twice the bandwidth for their regular frequency (which they may or may not fully utilize), let them decide to put up another transmitter and get the license for a 2nd frequency allocated to them.

Nitewatchman

04-25-06, 11:49 AM

35/36 may have been a bad example by jimp2244, but his point is that with the more efficient digital broadcasting allowing for stations to use adjacent frequencies, giving them twice the bandwidth might be an answer for some of this.

Another point is why doesn't WLWT, WKRC, WCPO, WXIX, etc., just start up a 2nd station, on its own frequency, that carries those networks? Instead of giving them twice the bandwidth for their regular frequency (which they may or may not fully utilize), let them decide to put up another transmitter and get the license for a 2nd frequency allocated to them.

Read the rest of my last post. The spectrum is very crowded and there isn't spectrum that is available for that. You have to consider interference issues and channel allocations in nearby markets as well, not just what is on the air in Cincinnati .. Station's service areas are HUGE, and it's easy for them to interfere with each other.

Also, Stations aren't going to get "more" bandwidth. The whole reason behind the transistion to digital(which is as you say more spectrum efficient) ended up being to free up spectrum so it could be refarmed for other uses, not to give stations more "bandwidth" so they can have their cake and eat it too with multicasting AND HD - 88MHZ of Ch 52~69 are being auctioned for other uses, 24MHZ of it is going to public safety uses.

However, that being said -- even though the planning for DTV transistion is that we'll end up with "Just enough" spectrum on Channel 2-51 to fit all the stations in that we have now after analog shut off occurs -- I personally expect there will be a channel available here and there for some new stations -- that's not to say FCC will allow a company to "own" multiple full service stations in any given market due to ownership rules ....

mlbUC

04-25-06, 12:30 PM

I totally understand what you are saying with the spectrum issues, Jeff. However, and correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the digital signal supposed to help cut down on the "overlapping signals" problem (sorry, I don't have a technical term for it)?

Each packet that comes through should have a header, thus allowing the receiver to filter out packets not destined for the channel you are watching. I was under the impression that a lot of the reason digital stations are so much more directional is due to this "filtering".

Even with adjacent markets, I wouldn't think that Cincinnati would have to deal with any more than Indy, Dayton, Columbus, Lexington, and Louisville (at least in the FCC's mind). Obviously each of those cities have to deal with their neighbors, but I'd expect that Cincinnati would be able to have somewhere in the range of 9-10 OTA stations. How many are in Cincinnati now?

nightowl2k2

04-25-06, 01:13 PM

Does anyone have Adelphia cable in the Maineville area? Over the past couple weeks I have only been able to get the audio of the HD locals on my plasma. It looks like the video is no longer broadcasted in the clear. On my HD cable box the channels are fine but I cannot watch them with out the box now. :(

Nitewatchman

04-25-06, 01:41 PM

I totally understand what you are saying with the spectrum issues, Jeff. However, and correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the digital signal supposed to help cut down on the "overlapping signals" problem (sorry, I don't have a technical term for it)?

It would be extremely difficult(not to mention long and probably incomprehensible) for me to include, and explain all the "relavant" techincal info that is related to the questions/comments in your post --- and sorry if this gets a little "sloppy" but I'm a little busy right now, and I'll do my best to cover some of it in a "seat of pants"(hopefully "accurate enough") way .... If you are interested in more details and info, you can find what you're looking for(it'll take quite a bit of "study"+research however) from such sources as ATSC white papers, FCC Reports+orders and rules involving techical "aspects" of the DTV transistion, various journals and magazine articles related to broadcast engineering, and engineering/interference studies which stations submit to FCC in support of applications for construction permits which are often available on FCC site via CDBS database ..... Here's a few links to get you started :

http://www.broadcast.net/~sbe1/8vsb/8vsb.htm

www.tvtechnology.com (Charles Rhodes+Doug Lung have some excellent articles related to some of your quiestion)

www.atsc.org

http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/

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DTV is more spectrum effiecent in several ways - but not "co-channel" wise among "different" stations. *any* undesired signal(including from a co-channel digital station) is just "extra noise" for the receiver to deal with. From what I have seen It's actually worse DTV to DTV co-channel inteference wise than Analog to DTV - Along those same lines -- FCC thinks so as well, one place you can find evidence of this involves why they "mentioned" a 2db difference(for the "worse") in their "interference planning factors" involving analyzing interference conflicts for stations post transistion channel election choices between (current) analog to digital CCI (co-channel interference) and digital to digital CCI.

The 8VSB signal used with DTV very evenly "uses" the 6MHZ channel(there is a small "spike" with the 8VSB pilot), whearas with analog NTSC most of the signal power is "concentrated" into small areas(utilized by the video, audio+color burst carriers) of the 6MHZ channel --- this is another "different" example of how DTV is more spectrum efficient than analog, as more *data*(such as HD) can "fit" in the 6MHZ) - In fact, our digital receivers and the DTV "system" has "built-in" NTSC rejection filter of sorts, which from what I've seen with my receivers work VERY well ....

As we've already discussed ---- DTV Stations can often "co-exist" better on 1st adajcent channels than is the case with analog(actually it's impossible in the same market for Analog - except where there are "gaps" between channels, such as there is(a 4MHZ wide gap) between channels 4+5). DTV on 1st adjacent channels works best with co-located(or nearly so) 1st adacent channel transmitters - hence another one of the reasons DTV is more spectrum effiecent than analog - another reason is because channel relationships previously viewed as "taboo" channel relationships were allowed with DTV channel allocations, even though we are(for the most part) using the same general "design" for inexpensive super-hetrodyne single conversion tuners (see charles Rhodes Articles in TVtechnology for more info on these tuners+various important issues involved). If those taboo channel relationships hadn't been allowed, there would have been no way to have all the digital+analog full service stations on the air at the same time during the transistion ......

But, That doesn't mean, for example, that 1st adjacent channel *allways* works with DTV without siginficant interference issues - for instance WKEF-DT originally chose channel 22 for their post-transistion channel election choice for digital, but FCC found an interference conflict during their interference analysis for stations first round channel election choices -- I didn't see the letter they sent to WKEF about it(only a notice that the letter was sent), but I'm pretty sure it was likely an iussue with WBNS-DT 21 Columbus. The current FCC requirement is a 46dbu(or less) difference between signal levels(anywhere within the station's coverage area - stations have interference protection withing their service area) for digital stations on 1st adjacent channels, otherwise the receivers won't necessarily be selective enough to "pull out" a weak station next to a strong strong one. WKEF has since changed it's channel election choice to channel 51(where it currently transmits), which was approved by FCC and they are on FCC's tentative post transistion channel designation list on channel 51 ...

Each packet that comes through should have a header, thus allowing the receiver to filter out packets not destined for the channel you are watching. I was under the impression that a lot of the reason digital stations are so much more directional is due to this "filtering".

You're thinking about the datastream carried within the RF signal, AFTER the signal is demodulated, not the RF(8VSB) signal itself as it is received. No, a receiver can't "anaylze" the signals from different stations and "filter out" packets from a datastream from another interfereing station, and no, it has nothing to do with directional antenna patterns in use by either digital and analog stations. Stations use directional antenna patterns to prevent interference to other stations service areas, and also for reasons involving covering their "service areas" ... Also, the more directional an antenna is, the more gain it has, so the less transmitter power(and the less the power bills) is required for the "same" effective radiated power vs. a non-directional antenna ....

Look at WHIO-DT's current directional antenna pattern. I would imagine it is not a coincidence that it's biggest null is RIGHT towards WDRB 41 (analog) Louisville, KY's transmitter (and right towards My House for that matter!) ..... After analog shut off, it's possible WHIO may very well want to maximize their service area+get rid of that directional antenna pattern ......

The only way to "filter out" interference from other stations is with the use of a directional receive antenna, or in extreme cases - via "phasing out" undesired signals with a "complicated" setup involving multiple receive antennas+"filters/etc. The FCC planning factors for "interference"(and DTV station coverage for that matter) are based on a directional receive antenna(the following are UHF specific figures, VHF is a little different and necessarily allows a little more "leeway"), with 10db gain(on any channel) and 20db F/B ratio(I'm not sure if they specify the side lobes/rejection of signals off the sides) mounted outdoors at 30 Feet above ground - A coax run(RG6) of 100FT and 4db signal loss on UHF frequencies for that 100Feet is also assumed, as is a receive system Noise figure of (if I recall correctly) 8db (or is it 10db? it was 10db for analog tuners) ... And believe it or not, the importance of the "directivity" of the receive antenna *is* a very important factor here where "interference" issues among stations are concerned .... As you can imagine --- It's especially important if the receive location is *in between* two stations transmitting on the same channel ...

Anyway ---- Where the front end of receiver is concerned -- It "sees" the desired 8VSB signal --(which at this point is just a(mostly) noise-like signal, the data contained within it is "Randomized" as it is transmitted) of which a ~16db Signal over noise ratio is required for reception(perfect reception is attained as long as ~16db SNR is acheived+sustained) --- ANYTHING else present on the channel (Including a "undesired" co-channel DTV signal, uncorrectable multipath/etc) is Just extra NOISE to the receiver.

Another thing that might help you understand this is -- "RF is RF", whether it be analog NTSC or digital(the 8VSB RF signal is not really *digital*, only the info carried within the signal is) .... True, analog NTSC and 8VSB signals used for DTV are molduated "differently", but that's really the only basic difference as far as the Physics of how it "works" is concerned ...

Now -- this might sound contrary to some of the above ---- but It *is* possible for a station or "network" to set up "repeaters" or a "SFN"(single frequency network - Using one channel), and use several stations transmitting on the same channel to cover a service area rather than use one big stick ... But, that would only work for *one* station, or say a nationwide(or say statewide or regional network) network (say, CBS HD) service ... You couldn't for instance have a nationwide SFN and have different local news or syndicated programming on the indianapolis or cincinnati transmitters ... Also, work on SFN's for our system has just barely began, and it would probably work much better with a different signal modulation, such as COFDM ... For instance -- technically speaking All SEVEN broadcast nets could offer nationwide OTA HD service via a SFN and only use SEVEN channels ... But, you wouldn't have any local "affiliates", or local programming on those channels ......

Even with adjacent markets, I wouldn't think that Cincinnati would have to deal with any more than Indy, Dayton, Columbus, Lexington, and Louisville (at least in the FCC's mind). Obviously each of those cities have to deal with their neighbors, but I'd expect that Cincinnati would be able to have somewhere in the range of 9-10 OTA stations. How many are in Cincinnati now?

After analog shut off(assuming all the current Cincinnati stations manage to stay on the air) there will be 12 OTA digital stations transmitting from within Cincinnati Market. That includes the Cincinnati LP stations, WCVN-DT Covington, KY, WPTO-DT(currently transmitting from WXIX tower) Oxford, and WKOI, which transmits from Near oxford in Butler County even though it's considered a Dayton Market station(because it's communtity of license is Richmond, Indiana). There are 9 digital stations in Cincinnati currently(the difference is the LP's aren't digital yet). I receive all 9 (and all 6 Dayton Digital stations) here perfectly -- 14 of the 15 do HD(WKOI is the only one that doesn't) doesn't everyone ? They're pretty much ALL strong signals here ...

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As it stands right now - using the "tentative channel designations" for 1st round of channel elections -- AND - Only "assuming" the low power stations will end up on their current channel (note - I'm not listing Low power stations for other markets besides Cincinnati or Dayton - although there may be some issues elsewhere as well) --- follows is a "seat of pants", "rough" list of where the "nearby" digital stations in the area will likely end up after analog shut off - and this in by no means is inclusive of all the stations that might be potentaial "interference" issues, and I'm also sure I've missed listing a few of importance ...... I think it illustrates however, that As you can see, there really isn't going to be much "room" for many new stations after analog shut off ..... Also Note that MANY(including many stations/station engineers) seem to currently feel channel low VHF channels 2-6 are not suitable for DTV broadcasting because of various interference issues which are particularly troublesome on those frequencies(electrical interference/impulse noise interference such as from lightning strikes+man made soures especially) So, so stations are for the most part avoiding it like the plague in the channel election process, and it may even be potentially possible 2-6 could be removed from use by TV stations if very few stations are going to end up broadcasting there .....

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2 -
3 -
4 - WDKY, Danville, KY (Note: I expect it's very possible this might change to a UHF channel in 3rd and final round of channel election process, as the rules allow stations with lo-VHF analog assignments(their analog 56 is out of core as well ) to change their choice in 3rd round, or ask FCC to assign another suitable choice ...
5 -
6 -
7 - WLJC, Beattyville, KY (WPIB, Muncie Indiana has channel 7 as a 2nd choice in their 2nd round election)
8 - WBNA, Louisville, KY
8 - WLIO, Lima, OH
9 - WISH, Indianapolis
10 - WCPO, Cincinnati
11 - WHAS, Louisville
12 - WKRC, Cincinnati
13 - WSYX, Columbus
13 - WKYT, Lexington
13 - WTHR, Indy
14 - WCMH, Columbus
15 - WKMR, Morehead, KY
16 - WPTD, Dayton
17 - WKPC, Louisville
18 -
19 - WBKI, Campbellsville(Louisville Market), KY
20 - W20CL, Springfiled, OH (Dayton)
21 - WBNS, Columbus, OH
21 - WUPX, Morehead, KY
22 - (NOTE : Sinclair has recently applied with FCC to move W66AQ(WSTR Low power Translator Dayton) to channel 22, and repourpose WKEF's current analog 22 faclities for Channel 22 digital)
23 - Note: WIPB, Muncie, IN has chosen 23 as their "primary" choice in 2nd round of elections.
24 - WCVN, Covington(Cincinnati market), KY
25 - WOTH-LP Cincinnati
25 - WRTV, Indy
26 - WBDT, Dayton
27 - NOTE - A low power station in Connersville, IN currently has a contrcution permit for 27 -- They asked FCC to "move" it to WKOI's tower(near Oxford) and increase power which wasn't granted, and they've recently asked for a power increase from a different site) ...
28 - WPTO, Oxford
29 - WXIX - Cincinnati
29 - WTTK, Marion, IN(Indianapolis) - Note - this may be more "tentative" than most of the others on this list -- as There was a interference conflict found with WXIX-DT, which was apparently resolved by a negotiated conflict resolution agreement between the two stations - such a resolution could involve changes in antenna pattern OR an agreement among the stations to accept a certian amount of interference from "each other" within portions of their service area.
30 - WRGT - Dayton
31 - Note: The closest(current) tentative channel designation for 31 is for WANE, Ft. Wayne Indiana -- which is "close enough" for there to be potential issues, however - I'd say it might be possible for even a full service station in Cincinnati(but likely not Dayton) to also exist on 31, especially if say there was a bit of a null in the pattern towards Ft. Wayne -- Could also of course be an issue with WRGT-DT on 1st adjacent channel depending upon antenna patterns .
32 - WWRD-LP Dayton(note they are currently analog on 55, but have a permit to move to 32 - Pappas also has an application for a full power station on 32 near Xenia, Ohio - the applciation was reinstated by FCC in 2002, but there's been no activitiy I've seen with it since then)
33 - WSTR - Cincinnati
34 - WCET - Cincinnati
35 - WLWT - Cincinnati
36 - W36DG Cincinnati
36 - WTTE, Columbus
37 - Channel 37 is not allocated to TV stations, it is used by radio astronomers ...
38 - WBQC-CA Cincinnati
38 - WOSU, Columbus
39 - WKOI, Richmond(oxford, OH)
40 - WRCX-LP Dayton
40 - WTVQ, Lexington
41 - WHIO, Dayton
42 - WKLE, Lexington, KY
43 - WPBO, Portsmouth, OH
43 - WKZT, Elizabethtown, KY
44 - WKON, Owenton, KY
45 - WXIN-DT Indianapolis
46 - WWHO, Chillocothe
47 - WAVE, Louisville
47 - WTLW, Lima, OH
48 - WTTV-DT Bloomington, IN
49 - WDRB, Louisville, KY
50 - WDTN, Dayton
51 - WKEF, Dayton

jimp2244

04-25-06, 08:06 PM

I googled "UHF channel 37" hoping to find out more about this "radio astronomers" thing, but instead I found a very nice reference that somewhat explains co-channel issues and also issues with Lo-VHF:

http://tvtechnology.com/features/On-RF/f_Choosing_a_Final.shtml

Edit (personal observation): As has been said around here before, nobody seems to want to use Lo-VHF for DTV at all. Broadcasters don't like it because of interference issues which cause dropouts. Viewers don't like it because it requires large antennas which they may think of as "eyesores." Seems like it would make a lot of sense to just ditch all of VHF (hi-VHF included). That would allow for smaller antennas, and less complexity as we wouldnt' be dealing with two (three) different frequency ranges. You've got to think that after analog shut off there would be room for the few VHF stations on the UHF spectrum. If there isn't, then it seems like a bad idea to have decided to give up 51-69 UHF instead of giving up VHF channels.

To keep the discussion local, if WCPO (and now apparently WKRC wanting to go back to 12) would just "be nice" to us and get on a UHF channel, this market could do without the large VHF antennas, and it would be much easier to convince those leary about putting up an antenna if you can show them a compact UHF model that is much less noticeable from the street.

Nitewatchman

04-25-06, 08:54 PM

I googled "UHF channel 37" hoping to find out more about this "radio astronomers" thing

It's funny what does and doesn't work well with a Google search ... Here's the best article I could find on it with a little googling(I think I tried just "channel+37" -- and LOL .. It's also from TVtechnology ! "The last empty channel, the story of channel 37" is here :

http://tvtechnology.com/features/news/n_the_last_empty_channel.shtml

Also, Try searching FCC site(the "search" box) from main FCC page for "channel 37" and see what you get .... Here's a FCC document related to further protection of the channel 37 frequencies for radio astronomy use - this one deals with providing restrictions on where/how far channel 36+38 TV stations can operate(distances/etc) from Radio astronomy observatories in the U.S., such as the one Green Bank, WV .... :

http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Mass_Media/Notices/fcc95035.txt

instead I found a very nice reference that somewhat explains co-channel issues and also issues with Lo-VHF:

http://tvtechnology.com/features/On...g_a_Final.shtml

Yes, Doug Lung has many excellent, and enjoyable articles on DTV transistion TV technology, as I mentioned in earlier post. Click on "Doug Lung on RF" for an index of all his columns. I don't think there's a index of Charles Rhodes articles there, but as mentioned, he has many which should be of interest to you as well. Here's one of them, this one about receivers :

http://tvtechnology.com/features/digital_tv/f_charles_Rhodes.shtml

BTW - here's another excellent resource for folks interested in DTV matters -- A daily List of DTV News/info can be found here :

http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=12

Update follows :

Seems like it would make a lot of sense to just ditch all of VHF (hi-VHF included). That would allow for smaller antennas, and less complexity as we wouldnt' be dealing with two (three) different frequency ranges. You've got to think that after analog shut off there would be room for the few VHF stations on the UHF spectrum. If there isn't, then it seems like a bad idea to have decided to give up 51-69 UHF instead of giving up VHF channels.

Originally --- DTV was to be UHF only -- Then, that was changed to channel 7-51, then it was changed(the final decision in 1998) to channel 2-51 ... They thought about 2-46 when they added 2-6, but at the time channel 2-6 was added back in, it was at such a late date that some planning was already taking place for stations which would be using 47~51 ....

For one, it takes much more power (more $$$ in power bills for the station, more coal burned at the power plant/etc) to cover the same service area on UHF than is the case on VHF. The longer VHF wavelengths are also *usually* easier to receive with simple antennas(such as "rabbit ears" indoors), AND can "handle" and "get over" terrain issues much better than UHF. As with most things, there are advantages and disadvantages to VHF AND UHF ..... One disadvantage to VHF(lo-VHF especially, but it can be an issue with hi-VHF as well) is that it's more prone to electrical/impulse noise interference, especiallly when antenna is installed indoors ..... One disadvantage to UHF is that the shorter wavelentghs involved can be more difficult to receive, especially in terrain challenged locations ....

VHF-HI band TV antennas aren't much larger than UHF antennas -- The problem right now is is, there are NO HI-VHF+UHF combo antennas, but there's no reason why there can't be ... what makes VHF+UHF combo antennas(such as your VU-190) so much larger are the elements for Lo-VHF channel 6(54~88MHZ) ... and those antennas usually are designed to work well for FM(88~108 as well) ..

Channel 7-13 is "prime real estate" for OTA TV broadcasting(or any wireless servies for that matter), for many reasons ... And yes, that's 7 channels which we need .... See my posts above, and the Doug Lung article you posted a link to which should illustrate how congested the TV bands will still be(in most areas), even after analog shut off ....

For some reason, the Thomas Hazlett's and Microsofts and intels and the "computer folks" who want to get their hands on the spectrum broadcasters are using don't seem to understand this, or the realities of "interference issues", and unforutnetly I'm afraid you'll see a lot of incorrect info concerning these issues from those folks who want to make it seem as if OTA (they call it "wireless") is some sort of new, HI-tech invention .....

Another thing -- Keep in mind that those "larger" antennas you need for VHF TV? Well, you'd need them on your "video cell phones"(and whatever else they come up with to use on Ch 52-69) as well ..... I would imagine the new "wireless" interests(and public safety uses) channel 52-69 are going to be used for are not complaining that it's channel 52~69 and not channel 2~13 they'll be getting ..... Imagine a cell phone using channel 2 with a 5 foot long 1/4 wave vertical whip antenna attached ...... Although, concerning channel 7-13, I'm sure they'd still *love* to have it, and could find ways to make it practical ...