Cincinnati, OH - HDTV [Text View] - Page 23

Nitewatchman

07-10-06, 02:03 PM

Digital Only,

I haven't had any problems receiving them, nor have I noticed WBDT-DT 18 (remaps to 26.1) off air lately, Including when I checked yesterday afternoon/evening during WB HD "easyview" programming.

Do keep in mind the antenna pattern shown on FCC site for WBDT-DT current, full power licensed facilities(35 KW ERP from 954FT HAAT) is directional with nulls as deep as about -13~-14db or so. It says it Ranges from a relative field value of .207 (towards SW and S - that equates to as little as 1.5KW ERP being squirted in those directions) to 1.000 (the main lobe, 35KW ERP towards NE including more or less - Springfield, OH, their Community of License).

IF the "real world" actually matches the info on FCC site, Given their directional antenna pattern, ERP, and WXIX 19 analog being 1st adjacent channel, and with WLEX 18(analog) Lexington being co-channel with WBDT-DT : I'd venture to guess its probably the most difficult Dayton digital station to reliably receive from points South. However, I wouldn't think it should be too difficult to pull in from points in between Dayton+Cincinnati or from Northern Hamiliton County, given a decent, properly orientated directional hi-gain outdoor receive antenna setup is used.

I presume we'll begin hearing more WBDT-DT reception reports from Cincy area folks who will be watching them for CW programming in HD this fall ...

WBDT-DT predicted coverage area map(41dbu contour) is here (Note: this doesn't take terrain into account, and assumes a outdoor directional receive antenna with 10db gain at 30ft above ground is used - Do note that it *is* often possible to receive stations from OUTSIDE their predicted coverage area) :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT628342.html

WBDT-DT Licensed facilites transmitting antenna polar plot is here:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=19063&rotate=0.00&p0=0.905&p10=0.900&p20=0.899&p30=0.900&p40=0.905&p50=0.917&p60=0.936&p70=0.963&p80=0.988&p90=1.000&p100=0.987&p110=0.940&p120=0.854&p130=0.733&p140=0.588&p150=0.437&p160=0.302&p170=0.218&p180=0.207&p190=0.232&p200=0.245&p210=0.232&p220=0.207&p230=0.218&p240=0.302&p250=0.437&p260=0.588&p270=0.733&p280=0.854&p290=0.940&p300=0.987&p310=1.000&p320=0.988&p330=0.963&p340=0.936&p350=0.917&p360=0.905&

See the entry for WBDT-DT Channel 18 digital "licensed" here for more detailed info :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=WBDT&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

To calculate ERP being sqiurting in Your direction from the realtive field values --- Use the following equation :

Relative field value(in your direction) SQUARED ) x max ERP(stated in the station's operating permit, which equals a relative field value of 1.000)

So, for example in this case, in my direction (223 degree true bearing, 13 Miles from their tower) I use the relative field value(.207) listed for 220 degrees on FCC site and the following :

(.207x.207) x 35,000 Watts = 1,499 WATTS ERP.

Keep in mind that each 1/2 'ing of power ONLY equates to about -3db, or about the same as adding a 2 way splitter in line.

digital only

07-10-06, 06:08 PM

Nitewatchman

07-11-06, 11:55 AM

Digital only,

What sort of antenna setup are you using? If I recall correctly(and I may not be), in the past you might have said you have two, seperate directional antennas(one aimed towards Dayton/One towards Cincinnati) combined together with a splitter/combiner(2 way splitter used backwards). In which case, you might expect all sorts of odd problems to pop up occasionally(and unpredictably), as the antennas are thus out of phase(unpredictably in a frequency specific manner) , and, for instance, multipath picked up off the back of one antenna(say the one not aimed towards Dayton) will be "mixed in" with the Dayton signals being received off the Dayton antenna.

Another problem -- Rather than rejecting more signal off the back side of your "dayton" antenna from WXIX 19(1st adjacent channel to WBDT-DT), you're getting the stronger signal off the cincinnati antenna from WXIX 19 as well, making it more difficult for your receiver to be "selective enough" to pull a decodable signal from WBDT-DT on 18 out of the mud.

Also, since the Cincinnati antenna will be aimed towards Lexington as well, with a little bit of enhanced signal propagation that often occurs, you'll often be picking up co-channel signal from WLEX 18 Lexington as well. Doesn't happen all the time, but I'm a little over 10 miles NORTH of you(only 13 Miles from WBDT tower), and occasionally I can actually SEE WLEX with an almost "snow free signal" with my antenna aimed towards The South/Cincinnati, and at the same time still receive WBDT-DT perfectly on my Dayton antenna(on seperate feedline selected with A/B switch). Obviously, the directivity of the Dayton antenna rejecting WLEX signal "off the back/side" is a big PLUS in this case to help "null out" such interference, and of course I can't "see" WLEX 18 off my Dayton antenna in such circumstances ...

So, in other words, and in short, I'd imagine any small changes in signal conditions could sometimes seem like big changes with such a setup - there are just so many variables involved concerning reasons why ganging two antennas together in such a way can cause such issues. So, you might want to think about running seperate feedlines from your Dayton/Cincinnati antennas and a A/B switch to switch between them.

What has changed recently concerning your signal conditions vs. the past 1 and a half years, I cannot say. Could be something as small as a slight change in Multipath conditions. Also For reliable reception of WKOI-DT (Transmits from Between Oxford and Trenton), you're probably going to need yet another antenna heading, or a rotor on one of your antennas.

If you're not ganging two antennas together and are having problems, best I could suggest would be to adjust the antenna placement/aiming to try to improve your signal from WBDT-DT. If possible, getting a directional antenna with a decent amount of gain/directivity on UHF 18 Outdoors would likely be a very good idea.

tbenson81

07-11-06, 07:13 PM

Anyone else not getting any audio on 975 ESPN?

terryfoster

07-11-06, 09:10 PM

I'm getting audio on ESPN with TWC just fine. My audio did get messed up when the weather warning came across from TWC, but a simple toggle of the audio settings restored my 5.1. I really do like this Emergency Alert Message feature of the digital cable box. It allows them to give you important weather information if you're watching a cable station or if you're watching a recorded program. Too bad it drops to PCM requiring user intervention to restore 5.1.

And there goes HD, oh now Rich decided to pop in and give the weather warnings. They say they are setting up the screen so we can still watching the game but their "bottom third" is covering most of the game screen, nice.

digital only

07-11-06, 10:11 PM

tbenson81

07-12-06, 10:10 AM

mlbUC

07-12-06, 10:29 AM

You can't get the NY feeds without a waiver from the Cincinnati stations (which you won't get)... so I guess you are screwed.

Nitewatchman

07-12-06, 01:29 PM

Jeff,
Thanks for the info.

No problem. Hope some of it is of use.

I took out my 2 way splitter presto, 26 was back. I guess the 3db loss was enough to drop the signal level ...... I guess I need to get a a/b switch and maybe try that ......

Difficult to say, but you might end up needing a bit more "fade margin" than 3db or so from them for 24/7 365 day per year perfect reception to result. I'd guess going the A/B switch route should help out a bit as well, but you *may* need an outdoor antenna setup to accomplish that.

Having antenna indoors vs. outdoors attenuates signals greatly, by about somewhere between -13 and -20db is probably a good "rule of thumb" figure for a attic mounted antenna with only wood and ashphalt shingles to shoot through.

Of course, after analog shut off, it's probably a good bet that WBDT-DT 18(remaps via PSIP to 26.1) will be able to improve their signal, including towards the south.

I've never gotten anything other than Cincy or Dayton on the tuner so far..

Well, aside from the possibility of some sort of generally continuous reception from analogs on 3,4,6 in Louisville, Columbus and Indianapolis, and 52 from Owenton, KY the Dayton/Cincinnati area stations will probably be the stations you can get at *all* times, even with the best of outdoor setups - although, hi-gain, directional outdoor antenna(with rotor) is certianly a good bet if you want to see "distant stations as often as possible ..

At times, certian signal propagation conditions allow for reception of signals beyond curvature of the Earth. This is not uncommon, and actually occurs via something called "tropospheric scattering" on a daily basis to some extent out to a distance of 300 miles or so on VHF/UHF frequencies, although sensitive receive equipment is generally required to detect such signals, which are usually very weak and "fluttery" so to speak. But, they can *sometimes* be very strong when the atmospheric conditions are "just right", and such conditions can and do happen, and at times persist for many hours at a time.

The thing is, while you may not often be able to *detect* co-channel interference from another station to a weaker local signal, it's still there(if you could "see it" it might pop up above "the snow" once every few minutes or so) to some extent on a generally regular basis, raising the noise level slightly at times, and therefore lowering your "fade margin" above threshold for the local station. If the local signal is strong, it wouldn't be a problem, but if the local signal is weak ....

Hence one reason why "multipath issues" are not allways the only reason to use a directional antenna, and also another reason why combining two antennas together aimed in different directions can, in some cases "cancel out" the benefits of the directivity and or signal gain of 1 directional antenna ... In this case, it just depends on which direction the potential co-channel interference issue is coming from ....

jimp2244

07-12-06, 01:29 PM

I hope everyone enjoyed the 4 hour weather marathon last night on CBS and ABC!

Fox was the only network to get it right. Keep the HD feed intact, break in once or twice and thats it.

On CBS and ABC we had to see everyone in Cincinnati get interviewed on how windy it was all night long!

I would say that a Tornado coming withing a few miles of my house is worthy of the coverage it got last night. Most likely the reason WXIX (FOX) didn't break from programming completely was because they were showing a high-rated, one-time event, and knowing that all of the other stations were covering the storm.

Are Cincinnati networks that desperate for news that they need to embellish the severity of every single system that comes our way? The local affiliates are just as sheltered as most cincinnati residents. I am sure people were running out for bottled water and batteries at the advice of the local affiliates.

I don't recall any of the local affiliates suggesting that anybody "run out for bottled water and batteries." Most of the coverage, it seemed to me, was them trying to show people where the tornadoes were, and telling the people in the path of them to take cover.

If WKRC and WCPO were located in Boston or Cleveland - they probably wouldnt be showing any programming ever.

Not sure I understand what you're trying to say here...

I really need to get a dish so I can pick up the NY feeds. Cincinnati stations are pathetic. That storm definitely did not warrant coverage for 4 hours!

Break in every now and then with updates but I dont need to see Gus and his wife Roberta get interviewed on how they were barbecueing outside when all the sudden a freight train came through etc etc etc.

Tony

I was watching WLWT coverage most of the night, but I did switch to WCPO and WKRC from time to time. You may have noticed that they didn't have commercials for that entire period, so it's not like they were doing it for the money. It is a public service, and a necessary one.

All in all, I thought the Cincinnati market as a whole did a good job. WLWT, WKRC, and WCPO fulfilled public service needs while WXIX offered programming and break-ins, knowing that viewers could switch to one of the other affiliates for severe weather coverage.

tbenson81

07-12-06, 05:09 PM

Ok - I am not going to get into this debate again but it is obvious that those defending the actions of the local stations have never lived anywhere else besides Cincinnati their entire lives.

Also - when this came up last time - nobody gave an answer as to why they cant show all the weather they want on the standard feed but keep the HD feed intact.

Fox did a good job last night - thats how every station should handle it all the time.

JimP- worthy coverage - you needed 4 hours worth of coverage to tell you a tornado was near by? Yeah - a tornado is serious - but tornadoes dont lurk around for 4 hours.

What I am saying with the Boston comment is that if we actually lived in a place where the weather was truly severe, we wouldnt ever be watching any programming. We have to have coverage interrupted in the winter time to tell us that 1/2 an inch of snow is on the way.

mlbUC - I can get a Showroom feed from Directv so ....I am not screwed

microbob

07-12-06, 05:35 PM

4 hours worth of coverage to tell you a tornado was near by? Yeah - a tornado is serious - but tornadoes dont lurk around for 4 hours.

I agree 100% with this. 4hrs of coverage is excessive when the same info is repeated over and over which was this case last night. If a tornado is nearby, TV is no good for me anyway. A battery radio is much more useful in these cases.

jimp2244

07-12-06, 06:34 PM

Not trying to debate either. Your opinion is definately worthy and valid and the local stations should hear it.

Just to clarify a little bit... I am in no way endorsing 4 hours of programming interruption to cover snowfall that we can see by looking out the window. I'm not even advocating the type of coverage we saw last night for a severe thunderstorm. I think tornadoes are a different matter though, as this is a life or death situation and every second counts. The overlays they place in the corner of the screen during programming are nice, and fine for most things. However, if it's a tornado I don't want to just see my county lit up in red. I want to see where the actual storm cell is so that I can judge and decide if I need to go to the basement or if is nowhere near me.

I will concede that towards the end of the tornado coverage they seemed to be pretty much in "filler" mode until the 11pm news.

I believe I've mentioned this before, but these situations are perfect examples of how multicasting can be put to good use. WLWT-DT could have kept their HD stream going on 5-1 while inserting a graphic that stated "Tornado Warning: see 5-2" and providing the tornado coverage on WeatherPlus. The other stations could do something similiar. They'd have to show the storm coverage on analog 5 as well though, so only digital TV viewers would be able to continue watching normal programming if the storm had moved out of their area.

tbenson81

07-12-06, 08:04 PM

I agree with the multicasting - I just dont know why its so difficult for them to figure out. Is it really that hard to employ from a technical standpoint? Maybe they can get it figured out before football season so we dont have to have the big time games interrupted like the Rose Bowl last year and many others

mlbUC

07-13-06, 08:51 AM

mlbUC - I can get a Showroom feed from Directv so ....I am not screwed

Ok, 2 things about that. First, the average person can't get that feed, so they would be screwed. Second, I thought I read that even the showrooms would no longer be able to get distant network feeds.

Ok - I am not going to get into this debate again but it is obvious that those defending the actions of the local stations have never lived anywhere else besides Cincinnati their entire lives.

One last thing... I live in Dayton now, before that I lived in Cincinnati, I have also spent long periods of time in Buffalo, NY, Greenville/Columbia, SC, Milwaukee, WI, and Indianapolis (for jobs). All of them do pretty much the same thing that happened in Cincinnati 2 nights ago. In Dayton they did the exact same thing, as Dayton was getting hit with tornado's as well (in fact, about a block south of the Dayton Mall a tornado touched down). My mother in law is in NYC for her job right now and said they talked about the tornado that touched down just north of town all night on the news... it happens everywhere.

terryfoster

07-13-06, 12:38 PM

I agree with the multicasting - I just dont know why its so difficult for them to figure out. Is it really that hard to employ from a technical standpoint?s

It's hard to employ from a legal sense. The Chief Engineer at WCPO said in so many words they need to display weather warnings on their primary channel and other stations in this county have been fined for not doing so.

So, do I understand correctly that WLWT-DT did not re-employ their "Weather Warning tune to 5.2" graphic on Tuesday?

Nitewatchman

07-13-06, 02:07 PM

FINALLY Dug up the following from FCC site thanks to some info from another thread in reception area, given that the filing window for stations to file for digital companion channels was in mid-late june, I wondered why I couldn't find any of the apps, previously!

Note: These are currently listed as "NEW" applications, without callsigns, so it certianly took some "digging", and they were hard to find! They do currently pop up under TV query "Search by radius" function. I had to match up the facility # referenced in the application itself(which you can find via the application search page via searching for the application # which can be found as listed in TV Query "search by radius" while using "detailed info+CDBS links" function) to find the analog station involved. Note that I was also able provide the links to TV query info on each Low power digital companion channel application as included below below by searching from TV query page for the new facility number as associated with these new applications.

Note #2 : While the below links currently work, they may not work permanantly.

-----------------------------------------

WBQC-CA 38/Elliot Block has:

Applied for a low-power digital companion channel on Channel 20 -- ERP 15KW ERP, directional antenna full TV query info can be found here :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=168414&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

The appliciation itself(which contains the facility ID number info(#19431) for WBQC allowing me to "match this application up" with WBQC digital companion channel application) is here :

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101138575&formid=85&fac_num=168414

The facility number currently associated with this new app is 168414, the File Number for the application is : BSFDTL-20060630CLL

----------------------------------------------------------

WOTH-LP/Elliot Block has:

Applied for a digital low power companion channel for WOTH-LP 25 on UHF channel 47, 15KW ERP, Non-directional antenna.
Full TV query info can be found here:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=168413&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

The appliciation itself(which contains the facility ID number info(#19432) for WOTH-LP( allowing me to "match this application up" with WOTH-LP)
digital companion channel application) is here :

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1138574&Service=LD&Form_id=85&Facility_id=168413

The facility # associated with the new application is 168413, the File number for the application is BSFDTL-20060630CLK

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There is also a application for a digital companion channel in Cincinnati area associoated with a current low power analog Construction permit for Channel 27(community of license, Columbia, Indiana/callsign W27CT), for an outfit called "venture technologies" ..... they had unsuccessfully at one point tried to do a "move in"(so to speak) of their current analog CP from Indiana to WKOI's tower(or theaeabouts) and increase power. Concerning the location specified in the LD(low power digital) companion channel app, I'm not sure exactly where this(the location speicified on the Digital companion channel application) but it must be in SW Butler county or NW Hamilton County South of Oxford area as it says it's about 17 Miles SW of me :

Anyway, for that location they have Applied for a digital companion channel on VHF channel 6, 3 KW ERP - Which seems Odd, as I believe the max allowed per FCC rules on VHF for low power digital is 300 watts ERP ...

Full TV query info on it can be found here :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=167298&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

The appliciation itself(which contains the facility ID number info(#128168) for W27CT's existing analog Construction permit(CP) )allowing me to "match this application up" with W27CT, Columbia, IN, is here :

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101137420&formid=85&fac_num=167298

The facility number associated with the new app is 167298, the File Number is BSFDTL - 20060630AUN.

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Thoughts:

I'm a little concerned about the app for low power digital on 20 for WBQC companion channel, because of TBN low power translator W20CL, Springfield Ohio. Granted, there should probably be some seperation between the two protected service areas, and even in my case/location(I'm outside of WBQC's service area although I receive a very good signal from them) I'd think a 15KW Digital out of Cincinnati shouldn't be "bothered" by a little noise off the side from W20CL .. But, that being said, I *do* receive W20CL (but a bit snowy) with proper antenna aiming, and can *even* usually see W20CL to some extent(just barely+with adjacent channel "slop"(due to selectivity of analog tuner/etc) from WXIX 19 mixed in) with quite directional antenna aimed towards Cincinnati ...

As for the app for 6 from venture technologies ... Unless something has changed or there was an error(and I don't even see a TPO figure in the application), I can't see how it will fly, given they are asking for 3 KW ERP, and the FCC rules with a 300Watt ERP Maximum on VHF for Low power DTV stations .... Also, given we have numerous stations on Lo FM in the area(and 88.5 WMUB would seem to be awfully close to the transmitter site they want to use), how would THAT work very well on channel 6 ....

Wonder who "Venture Techonlogies" are ? .... Working on some sort of Home shopping network or something similar perhaps ?

----------------------------

Shew! Sorry, wish I could have made that "shorter", but given the way those are currently showing up on FCC site, thought I should explain some of it, and how I found those in a little more detail ....

Nitewatchman

07-13-06, 02:26 PM

Another note: I haven't widened my search yet beyond 65 KM(approx 39 miles from my location), but notice W20CL, Springfield, Ohio(which I receive) has filed for a channel 24 low power digital companion channel, 15KW ERP .... Which is of course co-channel with WCVN-DT ... Which I also receive(quite well actually), and that be some sort of potiental interference concern for me .... But, since It appears I'm within WCVN-DT's 41dbu protected service area(but just barely), I suppose there "shouldn't be a problem" .....

jimp2244

07-13-06, 09:46 PM

It's hard to employ from a legal sense. The Chief Engineer at WCPO said in so many words they need to display weather warnings on their primary channel and other stations in this county have been fined for not doing so.

So, do I understand correctly that WLWT-DT did not re-employ their "Weather Warning tune to 5.2" graphic on Tuesday?

That is correct. WLWT-DT 5-1 was showing the same thing as analog 5. I don't remember if I checked to see what was on 5-2 though. I thought the decision might have been a programming one since I don't know of anything extremely important (such as the Winter Olympics were) that was supposed to have shown on NBC that night. I suppose the legal argument makes sense as well. I wonder if we could find any confirmation on that. Plus, I would think that as long as they put a notification up on the primary channel (plus the fact that they would say tune to 5-2 for coverage) that it should be enough to warrent displaying weather warnings on the primary channel. Although as I've said I thought it was important to have the weather coverage they provided that night, I have a hard time believing that they would be required to dispense with programming for 4 hours and go exclusively to weather. What WXIX-DT did sort of proves this, as they just had cut ins every once in a while, and still showed the All Star game in the corner.

Nitewatchman

07-13-06, 10:00 PM

Here's a "short list" of my last post, with a Couple more added to the LP digital companion channel apps from the area(refer to my last post if you want to find out how to "look these up" for yourselves") :

Digital Companion Channel applications :

WOTH-LP 25 analog/current independant/The "other" channel - "A1"/CFL football, Auto racing/etc/Elliot Block - Filed for 47 digital, 15 KW ERP, Non-DA, 679FT AGL, 1522FT ASL. (WCPO tower)

W27CT - Analog Construction permit(won't currently reach cincy - AFAIK, analog not yet on air)/Venture technologies, COL = Columbia, IN -- Filed for Digital channel 6, 3 KW ERP(yeah right!), DA, 463FT AGL, 1361FT ASL, from a different location within Cincy market, didn't look at a map, but since it's about 18 miles SW of me, appears to probably be in Oxford/South of Oxford area.

WBQC-CA 38 Analog/current UPN/future independant "ITS 38"/Elliot Block - Filed for 20 digital, 15KW ERP, DA - 679FT AGL, 1522FT ASL. (WCPO tower)

W56AT analog - KET/PBS - Augusta, KY - Filed for digital 20, 1 KW ERP Non DA. 46FT AGL, 771FT ASL.

W56AM analog - KET/PBS - Falmouth, KY - Filed for digital 23, 1 KW ERP, 46FT AGL, 807FT ASL

Digital Flash cut Applications :

W36DG 36 (TBN Translator) Cincinnati (Transmits not far from WSTR tower).

No Applications for digital as of yet(presume flash cut at some point, filing window for digital companion channel closed June 30 - Unless they decide to have another one) :

W17AY 17 (Religious - Treanquility Community Church) - Seaman, OH (Note - Transmitter/tower is actually Near Peebles, OH)

JunkyardDogg

07-13-06, 11:11 PM

I am surprised to see Block applying for two channels. I would think he would run one station, and carry WBQC/WOTH as subchannels on channel 38, and use 47 until then. But, if he plans on HD, then I agree that he should have two seperate channels.

microbob

07-13-06, 11:16 PM

What HD would WBQC be running? They already dropped UPN except for late night. Is any syndicated programming in HD. WKRC used to run a movie package that was in HD once a month but that has not been on in over a year.

I'd like to see a nightly 8PM movie in HD on ch 38.

terryfoster

07-14-06, 08:20 AM

JunkyardDogg

07-14-06, 10:34 AM

Thats why I was surprised to see that Block would be running two channels, instead of saving money and just multicasting his two channels.

Nitewatchman

07-14-06, 01:30 PM

Keep in mind, these are *ONLY* applications, and only the first stage in the process for stations seeking digital companion channels. LP stations are not guarenteed a digital companion channel if they file for one, this was to give them the oppurtunity to seek a 2nd channel for digital for remainder of digital transistion. Their other option is to flash cut to digital at some point, on their current analog channel assignment.

I did some reading, and for this proceeding, applications which are found to be "mutually exclusive" may go to auction, and from the way I understand it, the current applications won't be evaluated for interference conflicts until AFTER the auction(hasn't been scheduled yet) has occured.

Here is the text from a Slide presentation by FCC staff during a seminar for digital companion channel applicants :

"The digital companion channel filing window will be
conducted as an auction filing window. The technical
merits of the engineering portions of the Form 175
will not be evaluated by staff until after the auction.
Engineering proposals will only be reviewed to
determine mutual exclusivity (MX).

It is possible to go through the auction, bid, file an
FCC Form 346 and have the staff determine that the
proposed facility cannot be implemented." :end quote

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So, unless I'm missing something here it seems to me that it will probably still be quite some time before it seems likely any Construction permits for LP digital companion channels will be granted, and of course quite some time after that for the station to get on the air(CP's for LP stations are issued with a expiration date 3 years from issuance, and can't be extended past that time).

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Also keep in mind, the "hard" analog shut off date of Feb 2009 which currently applies to Full service stations does NOT apply to low power stations, therefore, folks using OTA NTSC in some cases will probably still have some LP analog stations on the air after feb 09, via either LP stations with digital companion channels, or LP analogs which haven't yet flash cut to digital.

Anyway you look at it, it seems to me if you were an LP operator with two stations who wants to provide OTA service to as many analog and digital viewers out there as possible -- why wouldn't you want to *try* to get digital companion channels for both stations? If they both work out, great, If not, you're still increasing your chances of getting at least one of them vs. If you could only try for one channel by having the oppurtunity to file for 2 different channels instead of one .... If *No* digital companion channels work out for you, then you still have the Flash cut option ....

Of course, the digital "Flash cut" application would probably be the quickest way to get a LP digital on the air, but the problem with that at this time is, you cut off analog service to the vast majority of your viewers .... Although, OTOH, with the ATSC tuner mandate now getting out of first gear, there should be more and more OTA DTV and HD viewers out there every day ....

As for the possibility of ANY HD from any LP digital stations in the area anytime soon(soon meaning after they get on the air, which will still likely be quite a while), personally, I wouldn't count on it, but I wouldn't necessarily assume anything about it, either. And, even if you aren't planning on any HD right away, why not keep your options open, as things can certianly change .....

As for multicasting ... Why not have two digital LP stations running? How many potentially revenue producing services can you put on 2 digital stations vs. one? .....

And, Personally I'd expect 15KW UHF digital LP station transmitting from a nice high spot on WCPO tower to get out VERY well ....

Nitewatchman

07-15-06, 09:04 PM

Sorry for double posts, follows are Couple of other comments I meant to post earlier :

#1). Noticed KET4/WCVN-DT has been running HD of their server until 12AM lately, expanding their HD schedule by 1 hour. ( http://www.ket.org/dtv/programs.htm ). Caught a program a couple of nights ago at 11pm produced at WFYI in Indy which was a WWII documentary with quite excellent PQ -- I especially "appreciate" the HD productions with B&W footage when they don't add "odd tints" so to speak, to the B&W material ... A recent documenatry about U.S. forest service("The Greater Good") was another one of those I especially enjoyed ...

Very cool here in Cincinnati to have at times during prime time, 3 different HD programs to choose from the local PBS stations, with WCVN-DT+WPTO-DT running programs off a server, and WCET-DT (WPTD-DT Dayton as well) running the PBS HD channel feed.

Do notice however, it seems all 4 Dayton/Cincy PBS's have had issues sending proper Aspect ratio for local SD(4x3 or 16x9) upconverted material(generally promos that run before top or bottom of hour of hour) running on their HD service. Not a problem of course for some of that which is HD from WCET-DT ...

#2). Off topic ... But .. Sort of cool ... Receiving some intense DX activity via Sporadic E propagation("E-Skip") Today/Tonight on Lo-VHF and FM --- For example, currently receiving a Canadian CBC station on 6, with WOTH-LP 25 Cincinnati running the same feed with CBC CFL football coverage, currently(Live I assume). I had been wondering if the CFL from WOTH is a "live" feed, since it's what CBC is currently sending in canada currently, certianly looks like it ...

HDTVChallenged

07-16-06, 02:14 AM

#2). Off topic ... But .. Sort of cool ... Receiving some intense DX activity via Sporadic E propagation("E-Skip") Today/Tonight on Lo-VHF and FM

Perhaps this explains why my "favorite" lo-VHF FOX station was so wonky yesterday. (Reception got worse using the outdoor antenna vs. attic) :eek:

scottrleo1

07-17-06, 05:45 PM

I just put up a UHF antenna on top of my directv dish. I was getting 19.1 and 19.2 when i first set it up..now I'm getting nothing out of those frequencies. Are they a VHF station??

microbob

07-17-06, 06:00 PM

19.1 19.2 are both transmitted on UHF ch 29 digital. They are currently off the air as was was analog Ch 19 earlier today. Not sure when the DTV channel will be back on. Hopefully later tonight.

scottrleo1

07-17-06, 06:11 PM

William Smith

07-17-06, 09:13 PM

Bill R (# 2)

07-17-06, 10:15 PM

19.1 19.2 are both transmitted on UHF ch 29 digital. They are currently off the air as was was analog Ch 19 earlier today. Not sure when the DTV channel will be back on. Hopefully later tonight.

I just talked to a news person at WXIX. I was told that they had "a major failure" today and that the digital channel will be off the air until sometime Wednesday, 7/19. The delay in getting the digital station back on the air is because they did not have the part on hand and had to order it from their supplier.

I hope before analog gets turned off the stations do better planning. All the digital outages remind me of the 50s when stations often were down for several days.

Bill R (# 2)

07-17-06, 10:24 PM

Question on the vhf uhf thing. I only have a uhf antenna..although I'm getting channel 9.1 at 50%...I believe that's the only VHF channel. Will more channels be on VHF evenentually?? Will I need another antenna?

A few years ago I was told that one of the local stations (WKRC-DT) is going back to their assigned analog frequency (ch. 12) once analog shuts down (2/17/09). Does anyone have any updated information about that?

Nitewatchman

07-17-06, 11:08 PM

Some of the promos I have are already " letterboxed" in production to make them work with the SD letterboxed program material. Some of them are full screen 4 X 3 and I anamorph them to 14 X 9 with the upconverter.. So Yes its a mis match and it take me about 1HR/day of programming to setup the server. I'm working to automate that task as fast as I can.

No problem William. It doesn't take away from my enjoyment of the HD programs ...

Guess there is no such thing as a "auto-AR converter" that will also "crop out" the black bars on the fly for the letterboxed promos .... But Isn't Woowoo supposed to do that, so you can take a vacaction ? :)

Nitewatchman

07-17-06, 11:16 PM

A few years ago I was told that one of the local stations (WKRC-DT) is going back to their assigned analog frequency (ch. 12) once analog shuts down (2/17/09). Does anyone have any updated information about that?

FYI, The Cincinnati stations Channel election choices for post-transistion operation are listed in the first "info" post in this thread, and that info can also be found at FCC site. You might also want to Download the list under 5/23/06 date here : http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/, For the most part, the rules and procedures concerning the channel election procedure were outlined in the 2nd peroidic DTV review which is also available for download from that page from a earlier date.

Anyhow, Yes, WKRC-DT has elected to move their digital(currently on 31)station to 12 after analog shut off, FCC approved their choice and they are on FCC's tentative post-transistion channel list for 1st+2nd round channel election procedure for Channel 12 post-analog shut off. All Cincy/Dayton full service stations choices have been approved(there were a couple of conflicts found with orignal choices but those were worked out) by FCC and they are all on that List, BTW.

Is that "set in stone" yet? No, not completely until the final table of allotments are released by FCC, but, I see no reason why they'll change -- It other words, there's probably some sort of a *chance* some channel designations from that list may change, but you can probably pretty much count on it. WCPO-DT will remain on VHF 10 as well, BTW. The remainder of "full service" Cincy/Dayton digital stations will remain on UHF.

Of course, there's allways the possibility of *new* stations on VHF after analog shut off, not excluding low power Digital stations ...

And, Of course, from Dry ridge, Lexington may be receivable, and they have a couple of VHF digital stations as well(at this point, looks like that will probably be the case post analog shut off also) ... Right now for instance, it might be advantageous to receive WDKY-DT 4(remap to 56.1) Lexington for Fox HD programming ....

BTW, thanks for passing along the info from WXIX. I noticed they did come up for a few very(as in 30 seconds or less several times between about 6:50 and 6:55pm) brief periods between 6:30~7pm this evening, It seemed apparent they were having issues+were likely working on it ....

Bill R (# 2)

07-18-06, 11:17 AM

BTW, thanks for passing along the info from WXIX.

You are welcome. I tried to get some more information on the WXIX outage this morning. As you might expect the engineers were unavailable. The person that I talked to in operations said the it was a mechanical problem and they still expected to have it fixed on Wednesday. I don't know what she meant by "mechanical". I would think that the problem would be an electronic failure.

William Smith

07-18-06, 11:58 AM

It could be cooling.. as the bigger transmitters are liquid cooled.
Pumps, heat exhangers, fans etc

William Smith

07-18-06, 11:59 AM

No problem William. It doesn't take away from my enjoyment of the HD programs ...

Guess there is no such thing as a "auto-AR converter" that will also "crop out" the black bars on the fly for the letterboxed promos .... But Isn't Woowoo supposed to do that, so you can take a vacaction ? :)

I can spell vacation that's about as close as I get most of the time..

Bill R (# 2)

07-18-06, 12:27 PM

It could be cooling.. as the bigger transmitters are liquid cooled.
Pumps, heat exhangers, fans etc

Thanks Bill. I guess I should have known that since years ago (in the 70s) all of our main frame computers were water cooled. I guess this time of year the transmitters produce a lot of heat and require lots of aux cooling.

Nitewatchman

07-18-06, 03:00 PM

I can spell vacation that's about as close as I get most of the time..

LOL ... good one ....

BTW :

#1). With WXIX-DT down, WKSO is popping up above snow fairly continuously via "normal", everyday scattering, which seems a bit nostalgic ....... In other words, WKSO still seems to get out quite well .....

#2) I seem to be missing EPG, ratings info + 708 captions via PSIP from WCVN-DT for the past week or so -- wonder if anyone else is getting this/or if it's a "receiver specific" issue on my end. VCT seems to be working fine. Tried to check to see if the same thing was happening from WKON-DT or WKLE-DT last night, but couldn't quite get a lock on those at the time ...

Can only verify 708 captions+ratings info are MIA on the ZenithHDV420(which is very unusual from WCVN-DT), and that the ratings info, and EPG info(program title+description) from EIT's seems to be MIA on ATSC receiver internal to Sony HDTV - unfortunetly it only displays EPG info on current program, it won't let you look ahead, nor does it seem to utilize STT (you can only manually set the clock, for instance) .... I think it uses ATI chipset, but not sure. Zenith HDV420 doesn't support/display EPG info via PSIP EIT's. My USDTV/Hisense DB-2010 is only hooked up to Dayton antenna --- too hot to crawl in attic and switch coax feeds around to check it with stations via Cincy antenna/etc ...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

On another note --

Interestingly enough concerning AR ... On several occasions, I have came across 16x9 NTSC video(just like a "anamorphic" widescreen DVD works) being sent via a 480i 4x3 or NTSC signal, such as via "the tube", occasional hunting fishing programs on WOTH-LP, and programs on a couple of the "more liberal" E* Public interest channels(FSTV, Link) ... Which I don't mind as of course the "full" screen mode on my 16x9 displays produces proper AR when this occurs .... Folks with 4x3 sets may not like it so much, however ...

Do wonder if the future SD recording devices with mandated ATSC receivers in them will have a "squeeze" AR output formatting function, as do my Zenith+USDTV/Hisense STB's -- which allows me, for instance to record 16x9 NTSC video(from say HD sources but output at 480i via S-video to the recorder) to S-VHS(a 4x3 "frame" of course), and then "stretch it" back out on playback with my 16x9 displays "full mode" for proper AR ... It actually ends up looking quite good, very close to DVD quality ...

William Smith

07-18-06, 03:34 PM

I installed the latest EPG generator software about 2 weeks ago... I'll check the data from here but it was there at 09:00 today.. with ratings..

708 caption triggering is also contained in the EPG data...

So if the gudie data is out so are ratings and 708 captions...

Nitewatchman

07-18-06, 06:43 PM

William,

Whatever you did, it seems fixed/all seems well at 18:15 EDT. Getting 708 captions now, and full EPG info ... Current "TV-G" on KET3, but don't see any ratings on the other services, currently. The sony says "unrated" for those, the Zenith doesn't show anything.

FWIW, there was a period(I want to say around the first of the month but can't recall exactly) when the EPG data was "see KET website for program ming details", then, it was full EPG data again up until sometime last week(can't say the exact day) when I seemed to have lost everything from EPG, well, when I'd checked it and up until this afternoon/evening.

Question .. I know the VCT info would need to differ per transmitter site, but is it possible for a problem to occur at a transmitter site(PSIP generator needing rebooting/etc - although in this case VCT seemed fine) which could mess up the rest of PSIP tables/stream as well?

In any case, thanks ...

William Smith

07-18-06, 07:19 PM

No,

In our case the TVCT is inserted at the transmitter site. ( for the sake of the total truth the one for WKLE leaves the network center but is still re -inserted at the WKLE site. This has to be done at the site in case the system is on backup ( A DTV receiver with TS output at the site receiving another KET site). EPG data is generated at the Network Center...

The EPG data we create here goes not only to the PSIP but to Tribune and TV guide as well. A new erson took that over in June and I upgraded the software at the same time.. Between the two there have been a couple of bumps in the road but we're working on them..

The only thing other things I can think of that can kill EPG data is blocking the PIDS...or screwing with the MGT..

HDTVChallenged

07-18-06, 07:43 PM

The EPG data we create here goes not only to the PSIP but to Tribune and TV guide as well. A new erson took that over in June and I upgraded the software at the same time.. Between the two there have been a couple of bumps in the road but we're working on them....

Humm ... as of last night, the HD mode EPG for KET4 was still getting lost in translation on DirecTV and the Zap2it.com online guide (and KET3 seems to be a lost cause.) I'm pretty sure both entities are fed from the Tribune "master database." (I haven't looked that closely today.)

OTOH, the local Adelphia cable system does appear to get the correct EPG data for KET4/HD, and it's been reported that TitanTV.com is also correct, but I haven't verified that.

The above applies for WKLE-DT, other xmitters seem to have different guide problems.

EDIT: Just confirmed that TitanTV (Decisionmark) is getting the correct data for KET4 (at least for WKSO and WKLE.) Zap2It (Tribune Media Services) and DirecTV's data is still incorrect .... (KET1 and KET2 are ok)

Nitewatchman

07-18-06, 08:34 PM

The only thing other things I can think of that can kill EPG data is blocking the PIDS...or screwing with the MGT..

FWIW/In case it helps, don't think there's anything like that happening on my end (OTA).

Haven't checked it for KET (and since everything appears to be working can't imagine there would be a problem showing up currently), but can get into the Sony set's service menu and it has some nice ATSC TS info (for example when it has a problem with PSIP or MPEG tables (TVCT, MGT, STT, PAT, EIT/ETT/PAT/PMT/etc), the text color(say for "MGT") changes from white(normal) to Red. Among other things, PID addresses for audio/video streams are also shown.

If I notice anything else odd, next time I'll go into that screen and attach a screenshot/post it here.

Bill R (# 2)

07-19-06, 09:54 PM

I noticed that WXIX-DT is back up this evening.

Nitewatchman

07-19-06, 09:57 PM

Edit - Billl, sorry for the duplicate post/info, didn't see your post until after I posted it --- figured this time I'd go ahead and leave it with some edits ....

Yes -- Noticed WXIX-DT was back on air, today as early as around lunch time ...

Also notice audio stream seems to be missing from KET4 in HD mode tonight ... Murphy needs to high-tail it out of this area :)

Along those lines looks like the Reds were rained on, tonight .... when I looked at the radar a bit ago, it appeared all clear, except for a "red" area right over downtown Cincinnati which didn't appear to be moving much ...

Dimitriz

07-20-06, 08:27 AM

Well, now I know what those Bright Orange cables in Maineville are... :)

Aparently TWC is taking over Adelphia NEXT month. (August)

Go here and plug in your ZIP to see. (already verified 45039 and one guy at work checked in Butler Couty.)

http://www.twcusoon.com

William Smith

07-20-06, 09:44 AM

HDTVChallenged

07-20-06, 11:11 AM

What time or show?

As far as I could tell, the entire evening (7/19/06) was silent.

On other evenings, I've noticed that the system is still having trouble holding on to the DD5.1 stream. (Notably - Soundstage in either passthrough or server mode.)

And while we're at it ( :) ), the Ramsey Lewis programs from the first Saturday after the return to server-mode were chopped in half ... It looked as if you lost the Ku band feed completely. They were only 10-15 minutes long, with the rest of the time-slot filled with repeating "Ballard County" station IDs ... No rest for Murphy ( or the weary ) ...

Nitewatchman

07-20-06, 12:45 PM

What time or show?

As far as I could tell, the entire evening (7/19/06) was silent.

Yep, same here. Think it was fine after 12am (after the "switch" to 480i).

In case it helps, attached are some "diagnostic info" screenshots from last night via decoder internal to Sony KD34XBR960 HDTV ..

Description of attached screenshots(taken between 22:00 and 22:30 last night - Note : info in the "Path B status" box for screenshots #1 and #2 is not relevant here, included it as I wanted all the info at bottom of screen to show up) :

KET4TSinfo1.jpg - shows info when tuned to KET4 with "normal" readings showing (posted this as it's clearer than #2) ... Nothing seems unusual here, including for the audio stream .... info indicates a 2 channel stream(if it would have been DD 5.1, you'd see info all 5 channels rather than just L+R) ...

KET4TSinfo2.jpg - This is a little blurry(sorry) -- Same screen as first screenshot, but Occasionally, and for a fraction of a second every now and then -- next to "tuned", a message(shown in yellow instead of green) of "AUNKW" was popping up(for "unknown audio" I expect). And next to "AUD" the reading changes from "PLAY" in Green to "PEND"(for "pending" I suspect) in yellow. As you should be able to see -- I tried to open the camera's shutter only when that was "popping up" to no avail ... In any case, perhaps there was a audio stream there, but it seemed to be having trouble decoding it(especially since I couldn't hear any audio). I tried changing to the "2nd" audio stream, but that didn't help.

KET4TSinfo3.jpg - Shows another info screen -- At top, what it says for KET4 -- at bottom, what it says for KET2 ... Note that the Info in first two columns is remaining "static" tonight for KET4 Audio info(NOT the usual condition), the data in first two columns for the KET2 is constantly changing(which is normal - Note I'm getting audio from KET1+2 just fine, tonight.

Nitewatchman

07-20-06, 01:14 PM

On other evenings, I've noticed that the system is still having trouble holding on to the DD5.1 stream. (Notably - Soundstage in either passthrough or server mode.)

What I've noticed here is that at times since 7/1(from the server) there have been frequent short "audio drops" on KET4 during "HD mode" - Although, they seemed to become less frequent as time went on(therefore I assumed it was being worked on), and don't recall having catching any of those when I was watching in the past week or so.

No rest for Murphy ( or the weary ) ...

LOL ... Speaking of which ... I wonder if it is possible WCVN(analog and digital stations) were running at reduced power, or having some RF problems last night ?

As both the digital and analog stations seemed *signficantly* weaker here. To the point 54 dropped almost all the way beneath the "snow" on a couple of occasions while at the same time, I lost a lock on WCVN-DT between 11pm~11:30, then again 11:50pm, with the signal just *barely* above threshold at say, 11:45pm ... It was as if between about 22:30 and 00:00, both transmitters had dying tubes ... Although, of course, as I believe William has said, WCVN-DT transmitter is solid state ...

I did several checks to try to see if the problem was on my end, or was CCI related/etc, but couldn't find anything wrong ... For example - WKON 52 was coming in as usual. Another example - WNWO 24 Toledo *was* coming in via a bit of tropo scatter if I aimed the antenna that way -- but, it was actually weaker at the times I had lost a lock on WCVN-DT than it was at say, just after 12am when I had a lock - and signal a few db+ over threshold or more and solid reception from WCVN-DT -- AND I've seen WNWO much stronger than that without any issues ...

It is the first time in over 4 1/2 years I've ever lost a lock on WCVN-DT, nary a reception related "dropout"(until perhaps last night) I can recall, either --- And many more years without ever seeing WCVN analog signal so apparently weak.

If they weren't at LP or having problems -- seems very strange/puzzling, seemed as if a large obstacle was in the signal path, temporarily "Hovering" near WCVN-TV/DT transmitting antennas ... And no, I don't believe in "UFO's" from outer space <g> .....

William Smith

07-20-06, 02:28 PM

Not aware of any problems at WCVN,

As far as HD audio.. Part of the issue is that fact that the HD audio feed switches from 5.1 to 2/0 alot. All the break material is upconverted from SD and encoder as 2/0. Dolby AC-3 doesn't switch well... I'm working on it but I have limited equipment and less time..

WBS

Nitewatchman

07-20-06, 04:23 PM

Thanks William for all your efforts, and no problem.

Think I recall the DD 5.1/DD 2.0 switching "back and forth" issue causing problems back around the time you first started inserting the break material, and a couple of times the first "switch" at 8pm to DD 5.1(or maybe it was the first switch "back and forth" after 9pm KET ID) resulting in the same thing we had last night, but I think it has been a long time since that had happened ...

WCVN/WCVN-DT signal fine here currently as usual, BTW .... dunno what happened last night, I guess whatever happened(blimp in area?), if it only happens for an hour or so once every 5 years It'll be no big deal ...

jimp2244

07-20-06, 08:17 PM

Nitewatchman

07-20-06, 10:27 PM

To follow up for William, tonight ...

22:12 EDT - All is well with Audio(DD 2.0 currently)/video and the RF signal from WCVN-TV/DT ..

However, I'm missing EPG again(including 708 captions on Zenith HDV420) from all currently active services(KET1/2 and 4) .. Have a "Red light" on EIT, apparently isn't recognizing ETT at all -- The other PSIP/MPEG tables all showing "green"(except CVCT of course) ... Screenshot attached ....

BTW -- EPG(and everything else) was fine last I had a chance to check it around 4:30pm ...

Update: 22:50 EDT -- All is fine now -- getting Full EPG info and captions, "green lights" on all the PSIP tables ... (also note that I did attempt to "refresh" several times at 22:12 to no avail) ...

William Smith

07-21-06, 12:05 AM

PSIP and EPG were offf line .. the system did its weekly "refresh" (as Microsoft calls it) and needed a password to continue... Got that fixed now that I know what caused it....

WBS

terryfoster

07-21-06, 10:23 AM

Could someone post the DTV channel line-up that you can receive with a QAM tuner on Time Warner with standard cable? Also, what digital channels do you get with the HD set top box (without paying extra for the HD tier). I'd like to know the channel line-ups for both situations, but am especially interested in knowing if ESPN-HD comes through in either situation. Thanks

Last time I checked only ESPN came through digitally, which seemed to be a mistake. You MUST subscribe to the HD tier to get ESPN-HD. Cable Box channel lineups are available from http://www.twcinci.com

I have hit or miss luck with getting the digital locals via QAM tuning. Everything else is temporary.

Bill R (# 2)

07-21-06, 08:15 PM

I have hit or miss luck with getting the digital locals via QAM tuning.

I had the same probllem on Insight. I had to replace an in-house distribution amp that was only rated to 550MHz. Now everything comes in great. By the way, for those of you who may be interested Insight has over 90 unencrypted digital channels. MANY of them are the Music Choice and other music channels.

Insight carries all the digital local channels except for WSTR (WB64).

MVolks

07-23-06, 07:00 PM

Hey Guys,

I am thinking about buying a house in Maineville, Ohio. It is at the corner of Montgomery (3) and state route 48. What are my options for HD here? Will I be able to pick up the over the air HD signals from downtown Cincinnati? How about Dayton? My purhcase of this home revolves around HD. I know- I am a fanatic.

Also - They tell me that the community is serviced by Adelphia. This really sucks but they claim that TW is taking over in August. Can anyone confirm any truth to this?

Thanks Guys,

Mark

donp326

07-23-06, 08:09 PM

jim tressler

07-23-06, 10:18 PM

Mark - I live there (here) and so does Dimitriz - no problems with either dayton or cincinnati - ota. I use 2 antennas (one cincinnati and one for dayton) and get both with no problems. You heard correct - TWC will be taking over Adelphia later this summer. Personally I have directv and OTA - mostly because of the Sunday Ticket - if I was not dependent on watching the Browns I would go with dish... however, I have a feeling TWC will make some sweet offers when they "flip the switch"

good luck

jim

Hey Guys,

I am thinking about buying a house in Maineville, Ohio. It is at the corner of Montgomery (3) and state route 48. What are my options for HD here? Will I be able to pick up the over the air HD signals from downtown Cincinnati? How about Dayton? My purhcase of this home revolves around HD. I know- I am a fanatic.

Also - They tell me that the community is serviced by Adelphia. This really sucks but they claim that TW is taking over in August. Can anyone confirm any truth to this?

Thanks Guys,

Mark

microbob

07-23-06, 10:18 PM

Hi up there in the north. I have posted on the Louisville DTV thread but no one has responded yet. I am having difficulty with WKPC-DT4 (KET-4) on the HD broadcasts tonight and last night the Video came in but no audio. I have memories of this happening before last night too. Do any of you up there know what is up with KET-4? Is this a temporary problem with their DD5.1 controllers? I am interested to know. Thanks

Same thing with WCVN-DT tonight. No audio. I'm guessing it is server related issue at the network. It was supposed to be fixed but they are still working out the bugs since going back to their own replay system and not using PBS-HD network feed directly off the satellite.

MVolks

07-24-06, 11:45 AM

Jim - Thanks a lot for the quick response!

I am not that familiar with installing antennas so I would prefer TW or a sattelite.

Does DirectTV or Dish Network offer HD locals over the dish yet? I dont think they do but does anyone know a timeline for this?

PS - Road Runner is pretty good.....what other options for High Speed Internet are up here?

Thanks!

jim tressler

07-24-06, 11:54 AM

Dimitriz

07-24-06, 01:26 PM

Mark - which subdivision are you looking at? It will make a difference in high speed.. If its cincinnati bell then you have zoomtown (which I have) and it works very well - if its a sprint subdivision, then you are limited. As far as the antenna.. its not that hard.. hell for a few beers and I could certainly help you out :)

Locals via satellite - both dish and direct have announced hd locals via satellite.. the question is when - DirecTv should be this "fall" - not sure about dish network. I know for a fact that WKRC has installed the fiber link and is sending the hd signal to directv right now.. so it should be close.

jim

I called Dish about a month ago, they said that by the end of the year they will roll locals in HD for 150 locations.., although they wouldnt tell me if we're on their list.
Also for Dish you'll need an MPEG4 receiver to get them... or if you want to watch ESPN 2 HD. Roght now I got about 30 HD channels from them :) + whatever I pick up from OTA (pointing directly into trees, lol).
Just did a rescan and picked up Dayton channels with antenna pointing S. Still cant get WB64 though... but not a biggie.

Dimitriz

07-25-06, 01:48 PM

Isn't Dish/DTV going to send a more compressed HD signal then you'd get from OTA?

jim tressler

07-25-06, 01:52 PM

yep.. they (sat companies and twc) will get it full bandwidth - dish and directv are going to crush it to mpeg4 - so, ota is the only way to get a full bandwidth / unaltered signal! Cant speak for cable - and the jury is still out on the mpeg4 stuff.. sure it looks good now.. but what happens when the birds are loaded up with stuff??

jspicoli

07-25-06, 02:30 PM

Yep.

Anytime you have to STREAM all your content through a pipe; you are always looking at a potential limitation requiring certain aspects of the content to be compressed.

I hope to see IPTV w/ fiber to homes pick up the pace. Then the content itself can be unlimited and your only limitation would be # of tuners within the home sharing the pipe.

Just my opinion and you know what they say about those.

jim tressler

07-25-06, 02:38 PM

I cant see bell running fiber to everyones house.. even though they (like other bells) have been given millions of $$ to do so!

Nitewatchman

07-25-06, 02:52 PM

See here for an excellent recent article related to recent posts :

http://broadcastengineering.com/digital_handbook/broadcasting_hdtv_data_multiplexing_5/

MVolks

07-25-06, 03:23 PM

Thanks again Jim! This forum is great.

We are looking at either buying or building in a community called the Reserves at Indian Lake. It is off a street called Willow Pond off Montgomery. I dont really know anything else about the area. The neighnorhood backs up against 48 as well. So it basically sits at the SW quadrant of the Montgomery / 48 Intersection.

I really hope that I can at least get Zoomtown here.

My HD and High Speed would probably be a dealbreaker.

Mark

jkeane

07-25-06, 03:29 PM

jim tressler

07-25-06, 03:34 PM

mark - I live in the other indian lake (other side of montgomery road and other side of willow pond) - anyway I am pretty sure cincinnati bell is the provider there and ota should be ok for cincinnati and dayton - although if you are on the back streets up against the woods, multipath may be a slight issue for the cincinnati stations.. unlikley, but a possibility none the less. The nice thing is that these subdivisions sit high, so the ota signal is very stong. I would call cincinnati bell and give them the street name and they can tell you for sure.. but I am almost positive its cbt - the other thing to do is go up to a house that is allready there and check the phone box - bell puts their name on it.

jim

R_Willis

07-25-06, 03:57 PM

PS - Road Runner is pretty good.....what other options for High Speed Internet are up here?

Thanks!

I'm a little farther North then the area you are considering purchasing a home at. I'm closer to the Rt.48 and St.Rt.122 intersection.

Adelphia cable serves my area. I have their high-speed cable internet and have been SUPER pleased with it. HARDLY ever down, and I mean hardly ever. Speeds are pretty darn great. Price is so so.

I don't use their cable however, I have directv and use OTA and directv for HDTV. I can get both Cincy/Dayton stations at my house, however I get the Dayton stuff easier, since I am probably a bit closer to the Dayton tower farms.

PS: Remember Adelphia has basically been bought out by TWC and will eventually become Time Warner Cable/Roadrunner.

As for other options for high-speed, if your area is served by SPRINT you can probably get something from them.

Hope this helps.

MVolks

07-25-06, 07:50 PM

This helps out a ton!

I really appreciate all the info!

Mark

Dimitriz

07-26-06, 07:58 AM

I'm a little farther North then the area you are considering purchasing a home at. I'm closer to the Rt.48 and St.Rt.122 intersection.

Adelphia cable serves my area. I have their high-speed cable internet and have been SUPER pleased with it. HARDLY ever down, and I mean hardly ever. Speeds are pretty darn great. Price is so so.

I don't use their cable however, I have directv and use OTA and directv for HDTV. I can get both Cincy/Dayton stations at my house, however I get the Dayton stuff easier, since I am probably a bit closer to the Dayton tower farms.

PS: Remember Adelphia has basically been bought out by TWC and will eventually become Time Warner Cable/Roadrunner.

As for other options for high-speed, if your area is served by SPRINT you can probably get something from them.

Hope this helps.

I'll vouch for Adelphia calbe (i-net) also. Had them since Dec when I bough my house and absolutely 0 problems. I kind of like them better then TWC since I am not forced to subscribe to Lifeline (extra $10) that I have absolutely no need for.
Their up pipe is a bit faster then RR also.

BTW, TWC is suposed to take over Adelphia in our area next month.

MVolks

07-26-06, 11:30 AM

Dimitriz

07-26-06, 02:19 PM

Thanks again guys,

Our only other option was a community called Saddlebrook that is a little further north on Montgomery RD. It is in Morrow and on a street called Appaloosa Circle. This is just south of Morrow Cozzadale Rd.

Does anyone know if Zoomtown offers their high speed here also?

What about cable options? Is this Adelphia area also and will it be taken over by TW this summer as well?

Thanks again!

Mark

From what I've seen mostly everything North of 48 will have Sprint/Adelphia combination. Adelphia is selling all their locations so TWC (in our case) will be taking them over shortly.
The best way of checking what you will have is ask in the Model home or look at their outside hookup labels.

jim tressler

07-26-06, 05:13 PM

Mark - I know for a fact that saddlebrook is a sprint commuinity. Good friend of mine lives on appolussa circle.

jim

Thanks again guys,

Our only other option was a community called Saddlebrook that is a little further north on Montgomery RD. It is in Morrow and on a street called Appaloosa Circle. This is just south of Morrow Cozzadale Rd.

Does anyone know if Zoomtown offers their high speed here also?

What about cable options? Is this Adelphia area also and will it be taken over by TW this summer as well?

Thanks again!

Mark

tbenson81

07-26-06, 11:04 PM

Again - thanks guys! I really appreciate it!

Odessit

07-26-06, 11:54 PM

Could anybody help find reliable installer for the antenna. Exit 19 off I-71 area

Dimitriz

07-27-06, 10:51 AM

Could anybody help find reliable installer for the antenna. Exit 19 off I-71 area

Ya choto ne znay kikakix Odesitov kotoriye zivyt tam. :)

Odessit

07-27-06, 11:33 AM

Dimitriz, you have PM and you better come over.

ScottA

07-28-06, 01:33 PM

I called Dish about a month ago, they said that by the end of the year they will roll locals in HD for 150 locations.., although they wouldnt tell me if we're on their list.
Also for Dish you'll need an MPEG4 receiver to get them... or if you want to watch ESPN 2 HD. Roght now I got about 30 HD channels from them :) + whatever I pick up from OTA (pointing directly into trees, lol).
Just did a rescan and picked up Dayton channels with antenna pointing S. Still cant get WB64 though... but not a biggie.

Did either satellite company mention how they were going to cover the CW network? I think WKRC is carrying it on a digital subchannel but it would be nice to get it as part of the other local channels.

// Scott A

terryfoster

07-28-06, 01:56 PM

This looks like a new development to me, the last I saw they were still negotiating for space on all cable and sat companies (sorry if this isn't new):
WHERE CAN I WATCH "THE CW"?

-DirecTV, channel 25
-Insight Cable, channel 25
-WKRC-TV digital channel, 12.2.

WKRC-TV is currently in negotiations with Time-Warner Cable for channel space on the basic tier.

Dimitriz

07-31-06, 01:03 PM

Did either satellite company mention how they were going to cover the CW network? I think WKRC is carrying it on a digital subchannel but it would be nice to get it as part of the other local channels.

// Scott A

I didnt really ask as they did not know answers to even simpler questions. They are just being feed basic info so not really usefull whatsoever.

On the 2nd note, over this weekend I got a letter from TWC that they are taking over soon.

R_Willis

07-31-06, 03:18 PM

For those with Adelphia wondering about the switch-over to TWC.

http://www.twcusoon.com/

Doesn't really answer a whole lot though.

RHildebrand

08-01-06, 06:00 PM

Any one else having issues with WXIX - HD (19)? Just installed a new receiver and I am getting absolutely no signal on 19. 5, 9, and 12 all come in fine.

hpm123

08-01-06, 06:48 PM

DT 19.1 and 19.2 not coming up on my receiver either -

RHildebrand

08-01-06, 06:52 PM

Thanks HPM. I didn't think it was the receiver but wanted to double check.

Does anyone know why WXIX seems to lose there HD broadcast much more frequently than any other channel? They need to get this fixed before football starts.

hpm123

08-01-06, 07:09 PM

I hope it's because they're boosting their signal.. I live in a heavily wooded part of Milford and have a terrrible time with their OTA signal at times. Can't get anything on DT 64.1 -

But to answer your question, I'm not aware of what may be causing their recent problems -

Bill R (# 2)

08-01-06, 09:54 PM

DT 19.1 and 19.2 not coming up on my receiver either -

I just spoke to someone (in the newsroom) at WXIX. He said that he didn't know exactly what the problem was (he said that it might be heat related like it was last time) but the engineers are aware of the problem.

neo7777

08-01-06, 10:02 PM

Hey guys, just to let you know I am also unable to get 19.1 fox tonight. I usually receive 19.1 fairly well in Amelia. Does anyone know how to contact them? Also, by the way, has anyone been having troubles receiving 64.1 lately? I use an indoor OTA antenna and had no problems getting 19.1 & 64.1 a few months ago. I wish that was stiil the case.

Odessit

08-01-06, 10:34 PM

19.1 and 19.2 not working for me too. 64.1 looks OK. I actually use indoor rabbit ears and get a good reception at exit 19 off I-71. Couldn't get 9.1 at all.
I even get 2.1 from Dayton.

Bill R (# 2)

08-01-06, 11:11 PM

Hey guys, just to let you know I am also unable to get 19.1 fox tonight. I usually receive 19.1 fairly well in Amelia. Does anyone know how to contact them?

If you read my post (right before yours) you will see that they are well aware of the problem and are working on getting it fixed. Last time this happened (in July) their digital transmitter was off the air for three days.

ScottA

08-02-06, 06:38 PM

Did either satellite company mention how they were going to cover the CW network? I think WKRC is carrying it on a digital subchannel but it would be nice to get it as part of the other local channels.

// Scott A

I got an answer from WKRC (posted with his permission):

Now, if Dish can just get their act together.

Dear Viewer,

Thank you for your inquiry about the availability of the CW network on Dish Network. We have not at this time reached an agreement with Dish to carry our signal. WKRC-TV 12.2 will be available over the air to digital ready homes and customers of DirecTV and Insight Communication beginning September 18, 2006. We are continuing to negotiate with Time Warner Cable and Dish Network in an effort to resolve outstanding issues and provide the entire Cincinnati TV market with the CinCW. I hope this information helps and if I can be of any further assistance please contact me directly.

Sincerely,

Rick Wagar
Dir. of Local Content & Distribution
Local 12 WKRC-TV & CinCW 12.2
1906 Highland Ave.
Cincinnati, OH 45219
513-763-5517

jim tressler

08-04-06, 07:38 AM

Looks like no HD from the CW and also looks like I will be watching CBS programming out of Dayton - WHIO :(

I got an answer from WKRC (posted with his permission):

Now, if Dish can just get their act together.

Dear Viewer,

Thank you for your inquiry about the availability of the CW network on Dish Network. We have not at this time reached an agreement with Dish to carry our signal. WKRC-TV 12.2 will be available over the air to digital ready homes and customers of DirecTV and Insight Communication beginning September 18, 2006. We are continuing to negotiate with Time Warner Cable and Dish Network in an effort to resolve outstanding issues and provide the entire Cincinnati TV market with the CinCW. I hope this information helps and if I can be of any further assistance please contact me directly.

Sincerely,

Rick Wagar
Dir. of Local Content & Distribution
Local 12 WKRC-TV & CinCW 12.2
1906 Highland Ave.
Cincinnati, OH 45219
513-763-5517

Bill R (# 2)

08-04-06, 10:56 AM

terryfoster

08-04-06, 01:09 PM

Since Time-Warner owns 50 percent of CW I think that it is most likely that they will be carrying it. It looks like WBQC (ch. 38) is getting "the short end of the stick". According to a note on this months Insight bill CW is going to REPLACE WBQC (ch. 25 on Insight's lineup).

That's the same kind of logic you could have used for the WSTR-DT being carried on TWC and we didn't get it and Time-Warner owned (probably) 100% of the WB.

The trick is TWC has to work out deals with the parent companies of the affiliate. Yes it is weird and convoluted, but that is how it works. I'm not holding my breath for the CW on TWC, on the other hand WKRC seems to be able to make deals with TWC, so we'll see.

jim tressler

08-06-06, 09:17 PM

anyone watching the nfl on nbc tonight? looks pretty bad on wlwt - you can definatly tell that weather plus is sucking down the bandwidth.. major macroblocking during motion sequences.. looks like ****!

jim

edit - I installed TSReader.. have no clue how to use it yet.. but here is what it gives me for wlwt 5-1 -> the Bitrate is around 15.5 mbps - weather plus is getting around 2-2.5 mbps

terryfoster

08-07-06, 08:11 AM

anyone watching the nfl on nbc tonight? looks pretty bad on wlwt - you can definatly tell that weather plus is sucking down the bandwidth.. major macroblocking during motion sequences.. looks like ****!

Apparently it wasn't just WLWT-DT:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=707813

jim tressler

08-07-06, 08:23 AM

anyone know what kind of encoder wlwt uses? the bandwith got a little better for the second half - weather plus was down to 1.5-1.8 mbps, while 5-1 increased to around 15.9-16

jimp2244

08-07-06, 10:03 AM

anyone know what kind of encoder wlwt uses? the bandwith got a little better for the second half - weather plus was down to 1.5-1.8 mbps, while 5-1 increased to around 15.9-16

I'm not sure but it would sure be nice to know. During intense HD programming I think Weather Plus could definately get by with even less bandwidth. It looked fine last night during SNF (maybe too good).

I was about to come on here and compliment NBC and WLWT for a great production, and then I start reading the negative posts and start wondering. I was watching on a 56" DLP 1080p set OTA and I thought everything looked great. Other than minor macroblocking during close up fast motion scenes, I was very impressed with the picture quality. The only comment I would make would be to ask that WLWT give a bit more to HD and less to Weather Plus during the times when HD is being sent on the main channel, unless it were a time of severe weather in which case I could understand giving up a bit of PQ in order to have that coverage be on weather plus.

Beyond PQ though I would even go so far to say that the whole production was great by NBC. This was only the preseason and they still managed to get every part of the production in HD. All of the graphics, the pre-game, halftime show, and even previous game highlights and the hall of fame podium shots were all in HD.

In addition, all transitions went without flaw. WLWT and NBC have consistently been able to go to commercial breaks with no problems, showing HD commercials as such, and there is no "switch" that is flipped to cause the SD blurryness as can be seen on WKRC with CBS.

Bill R (# 2)

08-07-06, 10:59 AM

In addition, all transitions went without flaw. WLWT and NBC have consistently been able to go to commercial breaks with no problems, showing HD commercials as such, and there is no "switch" that is flipped to cause the SD blurryness as can be seen on WKRC with CBS.

Speaking of a "switch that is flipped" has anyone noticed how often WKRC-DT "forgets" to filp the switch when they go from a network HD feed to their local news? They forget at least a couple of times a month, especially on weekends. Last evening (Sunday) they displayed the CBS color bars (HD feed) for the first 11 minutes of their 11 PM news. I was watching on a TV that only had an ATSC tuner so I couldn't switch to their analog feed.

jim tressler

08-07-06, 11:05 AM

good news for Local 12 (as I have been told) is that they are getting all new equiptment and the switch should happen automatically - studio should be up and running in the next few months

terryfoster

08-07-06, 12:13 PM

good news for Local 12 (as I have been told) is that they are getting all new equiptment and the switch should happen automatically - studio should be up and running in the next few months

I would predict that the new equipment will be up and running by September 20th, but that's just my prediction.

ktarkington

08-08-06, 11:03 AM

I have seen a lot of converstion about the picture quality of OTA vs MPEG4 from one of the dishes. I have a couple of questions based on what I have read.

Will DirecTV receive the feed from the local channels before they split it out into subchannels and send it to the antennas? If this is the case, won't that make the macro problems a little less of an issue since you won't have to worry about the weather subchannels?

With the 4 new birds that DirecTV has sent up, I thought the plan was to not compress the MPEG 4 feeds since they get much better compression with this codec.

Any ideas when we will be getting HD Locals? Any ideas on when the new MPEG 4 DirecTV DVR will be available?

Thanks for any input.

As for Cinbell running fiber to every house, I know that initial costs put it at about $3500 per house for running the fibre. I would doubt that a company that is 2Bill in debt from the Broadwing purchase will be footing the bill to do this. 600,000 houses * $3500 = 2.1Bill. It would be great if they did, but I'm not holding my breath.

terryfoster

08-08-06, 12:57 PM

Will DirecTV receive the feed from the local channels before they split it out into subchannels and send it to the antennas? If this is the case, won't that make the macro problems a little less of an issue since you won't have to worry about the weather subchannels?

With the 4 new birds that DirecTV has sent up, I thought the plan was to not compress the MPEG 4 feeds since they get much better compression with this codec.

Any ideas when we will be getting HD Locals? Any ideas on when the new MPEG 4 DirecTV DVR will be available?

My understanding is no, D* won't get the feed before they "split it out into subchannels." This would almost require two HDTV encoders, one to encode for D* and one to encode for OTA use. I doubt that D* or any local broadcaster would be interested in investing in this equipment.

MPEG 4 is a compression format so i'm not sure what your question is since anything encoded in MPEG 4 is compressed.

Cincinnati HD Locals will be added sometime this fall according to D*. As for a MPEG4 HD DVR, I've seen it expected in spring/summer/fall of 2006, so your guess is as good as mine. Maybe this month? (http://www.engadget.com/2006/07/28/directvs-hd-dvr-coming-in-august/)

ktarkington

08-08-06, 01:36 PM

I didn't mean compresses as much as reduced bandwidth. I know that they have throtled bandwidth for all of the national HD channels, leaving many compression artifacts. I have been with them for 9 years now and I'm getting pretty fed up with them saying that they are the leader in HD while they have added 1 channel in the last 2 years and reduced the quality of those HD channel significantly over last 2 years. Continual lies after lies. It might be time to start heading to Dish Network.

gerhard911

08-08-06, 03:25 PM

HDTVChallenged

08-08-06, 07:22 PM

I know that they have throtled bandwidth for all of the national HD channels, leaving many compression artifacts. I have been with them [DirecTV] for 9 years now .

Then you should be fully aware of the current constraints on the Ku band satellites as well as the plans for rebuilding the HD system using brand spankin' new Ka band satellites. You should also be well aware that adding *any* more HD channels on the Ku sats can only result in *decreased* PQ on existing HD channels. Thus your desire for more HD channels is in direct opposition to your desire for better HD PQ. We've known the score for at least a couple of years now ... D* has told us *exactly* what they are planning and doing. I don't see any lies here. :)

Bubster

08-08-06, 08:57 PM

Any other TWC customers with issues after today's software
upgrade ?

I have a Pace 550 box and a Samsung HLM507W and the upgrade appears to have
broken the HDMI => DVI connection. With the cable attached to the Pace I get a
message on my TV that it does not support HDMI. All of the other outputs of the
Pace box are dead.

Disconnecting the HDMI-DVI cable restores functionality to the other outputs. I
suspect the new software doesn't like the Sammy's DVI handshake.

There are also some aspect ratio isses. I had to go into the SETTINGS - MORE
SETTINGS menu and play with the aspect ratio settings to correct my S-video and
composite video outputs after the upgrade.

I was sitting here interested in a movie on TCM when the upgrade happened. After
the reboot they had changed some things that people with Pace boxes should be
aware of. They evidently changed the aspect ratio and input types to the regular
user menu and the update did not remember that I had a widescreen tv so I had to
change that manually. Before the update I had to perform a minor hack a coupla
years ago to get the # key on my remote to change the zoom and stretch modes on
the converter. Now when I use that key it pops up a rudimentary menu telling you
what mode it is in and telling you to hit "exit" when done. My remote doesnt
have an "exit" button but the * key worked. At that point I evidently fell
asleep on the couch and missed the end of the movie but when I awoke for some
reason I had gray bars instead of black. A reboot fixed this but now it appears
rebooting the Pace causes it to lose all programming info.

I did notice that all stations appeared to look better. Of course I have noticed
this off and on over the 3 yrs I've had the TWC HD service. This could be a
coincidence.

I have a DVI to DVI cable running from my converter to my 3+ year old Sammy DLP
and it appears to work fine after a brief "not supported mode" message when I
turn it on.

Bubster

08-08-06, 10:09 PM

Damn, sorry about the formatting there, appears to be a Firefox extension gone awry.

dtv insider

08-09-06, 09:51 AM

My understanding is no, D* won't get the feed before they "split it out into subchannels." This would almost require two HDTV encoders, one to encode for D* and one to encode for OTA use. I doubt that D* or any local broadcaster would be interested in investing in this equipment.

MPEG 4 is a compression format so i'm not sure what your question is since anything encoded in MPEG 4 is compressed.

Cincinnati HD Locals will be added sometime this fall according to D*. As for a MPEG4 HD DVR, I've seen it expected in spring/summer/fall of 2006, so your guess is as good as mine. Maybe this month? (http://www.engadget.com/2006/07/28/directvs-hd-dvr-coming-in-august/)

The D* will pick-up the stations with a receiver , fiber it to uplink site . So it will be compress a couple times before you see it. If you see WPTO on the Echo system it is pick-up with a digital receiver because Echo could not pick-up WPTO out of Oxford.

Bill R (# 2)

08-09-06, 11:12 AM

Here is some additional information on the satellite vendors and the local station. For most of the local station (SD and the four network HD stations) DirecTV has fiber links from the local stations to their local POP (point of presence) in downtown Cincinnati. DISH Network (Echostar) picks up all local stations (using OTA antennas) at their POP in Sharonville. From the POPs the signals are fibered back to the vendor's uplink centers. DISH Network has said that they have plans to fiber the siginal directly from the local station but, as far as I know, that hasn't happened yet.

Bubster

08-09-06, 02:42 PM

terryfoster

08-09-06, 03:24 PM

Well, it appears my black bars are now gray coming from the Pace box and I can't do anything about it. How annoying to not have an option in the box preferences to select which color you want (I realize certain types of televisions get burn-in with black bars).
[edit] My SD stations now no longer work with my Sammy DLP saying "no signal" after a short while of working fine (except for the gray bars).

If your Sammy DLP is anything like mine (HLR4667W) then you can stretch your 4:3 content on the box to eliminate the grey bars and then set your DLP to change the aspect ratio back to 4:3. This is how I get black bars with my SA8300HD, set the box to stretch 4:3 content, set the HDTV to "unstretch" 4:3 content.

Also, if your DLP is like mine, it cannot accept 480i over a digital connection. The SA8300HD has the ability for you to choose the output formats so I only have 1080i, 720p, and 480p selected. I believe the Pace 550 only has "Passthrough" and convert all programing to X resolution. So it sounds like you either switch back to component video or up/down convert all programing to 720p or 1080i.

Bubster

08-09-06, 03:55 PM

It is hooked up via DVI, cannot use the samsung controls to manipulate anything in that configuration. Yesterday's firmware update eliminated the "passthru" option and the options only let me select 480p and 720p on the new converter firmware. Just spoke with a moronic TW support person who couldnt even read the script w/o screwing it up.

I hooked up the component cables and both DVI and component quit working. I am now stuck here with component only. Had to remove the DVI connector completely from the converter so the component would work.

Argh! :mad:

gerhard911

08-09-06, 04:55 PM

Bubster,

I can confirm that attachment of a DVI cable disables the Pace component output under the new software. It had worked in my setup previously.

TW sent a technician to swap out my box today. He didn't even know about the aspect ratio control being moved to the SETTINGS - MORE SETTINGS menu but when I showed it to him he claimed that it was something they had been asking for.

The new box seemed to fix my DVI problem so it now works simultaneously with the composite and S video outputs (which I use to feed a VCR & HTPC/DVR). But it appears that the new software is very picky about DVI handshaking at poweron of either the box or the TV.

I still haven't fully figured out the pattern but it seems to want an HD channel tuned on the box when you power on your TV otherwise you get the "TV does not support HDMI" message on all outputs and channel or guide selection on the box is locked out.

The Aspect Ratio options available are less than intuitive and, it seems to me, misleadingly named. I wanted the box to output 16:9 material natively over the DVI output and anamorphically squeezed on the composite and S video outputs. Further, I wanted 4:3 programming (from non HD channels) to show natively over the composite and S video outputs.

The setting I found to do this was Standard (4:3), letterbox 16:9 ! With this setting I get no grey bars or letterboxing of 16:9 programming :rolleyes:

If you like to watch SD channels over DVI you may not like this setting as it does letterbox 4:3 programming in a fairly small (but very sharp) window. My Sammy, like yours, does not offer any zoom modes on the DVI input.

I'd recommend playing with all of the Aspect Ratio settings and see if one suits.

Bubster

08-09-06, 07:02 PM

In the middle of all this my Pace box croaked. They would not give me another so I have a Scientific Atlanta box now. Boy are the people with DVI gonna be mad when they realize they can only get gray bars for 4x3 upconverted SD stuff on TWC now. I will live with it but I called them and told them it sucks we dont have a menu option for pillar bar color.

terryfoster

08-09-06, 07:11 PM

TWC also upgraded the software on the SA8300HD. When you select a show to record you have a new option of "Remind me of this show" and they also give you the extended recording option immediately upon selecting it to record. I haven't discovered anything else yet.

EDIT: Also, when you delete a show when you finish watching it, you chose to delete it, and then confirm that you really, really, really want to delete it.

terryfoster

08-09-06, 07:19 PM

In the middle of all this my Pace box croaked. They would not give me another so I have a Scientific Atlanta box now. Boy are the people with DVI gonna be mad when they realize they can only get gray bars for 4x3 upconverted SD stuff on TWC now.

I'm not sure how many people are surprised about this, but you are probably in the minority. Personally I think most of the HD subscribers in this area jumped to the SA8300HD DVR when it was made available and left the Pace box alone. It was a drag when we found out the SA8300HD did grey pillars, but we could record HDTV so we were happy.

Sea Ray

08-10-06, 12:40 AM

gerhard911

08-10-06, 08:16 AM

Sea Ray

08-10-06, 08:43 AM

Sea Ray,

The TWC Tech that swapped out my box thought that the original did not accept the software download properly. The new box did correct at leat one problem for me. The original one would not hold it's aspect ratio setting. A swap to a SA box might be any better for you but who knows.

The only positive "feature" of the new software would seem to be moving the aspect ratio settings from a stand alone pop up into the integrated SETTINGS menu. Every other change I've encountered I would put into the negatives column (no resolution passthrough, no black bar option, disabling component outputs w/DVI, confusing aspect ratio settings).

Sounds like someone screwed up when it came to this software download. I mean if these things were possible a few days ago, why can't they add them back with another update? I talked to another tech late last night and she was little help. I asked her if they'd received complaints about folks losing the DVI connection or the black bars going to grey and she said the only complaint she'd heard about was that the aspect ratio needed to be reset. She's either very ill informed or she's not being straight with me and neither is good.

I'll disconnect DVI tonight and see how it responds. If I don't like it I'll swap boxes. It struggles to lock on a picture now. It is slow and it seems like it's always on the verge of giving me the no signal or your TV does not support HDCP. I don't like the grey bars either but that's down on the list. Right now with both DVI and COMP hooked up I don't even know if it'll give me a picture

Bubster

08-10-06, 12:57 PM

I have exactly your problem. I have a Sammy DLP and a PACE box. I went in and reset my settings through the preferences but was greatly limited in my choices. I no longer have the option of a PASS output, only 480p and 720p. My black bars are now grey and it is much slower changing from channel to channel. I called tech support and they of course said to come in and exchange my box.

What's the scoop here? Will a new box help? If so should I get another PACE box? Should I disconnect my DVI and use COMP for awhile? What are we gaining by TWC doing this software upgrade?

My Pace box ended up not working at all. Swapped it for a Scientific Atlanta box with DVI and I have to say I like it so far (not the DVR box, btw). I had to go into the Sammy's adjustments and reduce the color intensity quite a bit and I still have gray bars on 4x3 upconverted material but I can live with it for now.

I had a long chat with a TWC girl who had a technician experimenting at her side as I explained what was happening and he agreed with my findings and not being able to make the bars black in the setup. I suggested they may want to implement that soon before they get many irate DVI users complaining. The sad part is that right now it appears they are telling people to get rid of the gray bars by stretching or zooming the picture which I told her is not an option for many people just based on principles. I like to watch Turner Classic Movies more than anything else and I prefer to see them in their original aspect ratio.

terryfoster

08-10-06, 01:22 PM

Has anyone else noticed that WLWT-DT has now been switching their 5.1 audio on and off? I noticed last night that Last Comic Standing was in DD2.0 instead of DD5.1, which isn't a surprise except for the fact that WLWT-DT had been running everything in DD5.1 when they installed their encoder. So, anybody else notice this?

Sea Ray

08-10-06, 03:15 PM

My Pace box ended up not working at all. Swapped it for a Scientific Atlanta box with DVI and I have to say I like it so far (not the DVR box, btw). I had to go into the Sammy's adjustments and reduce the color intensity quite a bit and I still have gray bars on 4x3 upconverted material but I can live with it for now.

I had a long chat with a TWC girl who had a technician experimenting at her side as I explained what was happening and he agreed with my findings and not being able to make the bars black in the setup. I suggested they may want to implement that soon before they get many irate DVI users complaining. The sad part is that right now it appears they are telling people to get rid of the gray bars by stretching or zooming the picture which I told her is not an option for many people just based on principles. I like to watch Turner Classic Movies more than anything else and I prefer to see them in their original aspect ratio.

I was always told that the PACE box is a much better box and that it changes channnels more quickly and definitively. Have you found that the SA box changes channels as quickly as the PACE? Are you able to use both DVI and COMP?

DIrick17

08-10-06, 06:26 PM

gerhard911

08-10-06, 07:38 PM

TWC is putting together a bug list to address issues with this download. This would include the grey bars instead of black, no resolution passthrough and anything else reported. If you get to the "Level 3" group, they are even putting together a list of TV's that are having compatiblity issues since the download. Sounds like most of the "issues" are with the PACE box. My SA works great.

Hey DIrick17 welcome to AVS and this thread ! It sounds like you may have some inside info on all of this. Any more you can share with us ?

As for TWC Level 3 thats where I ended up when I wouldn't let the Level 1 script reader blow me off. I was probably one of the first to complain about all of this but the only issue they were prepared to deal with was the change to how you selected the aspect ratio.

In my attemts to describe the DVI problem I had to educate the Level 3 support individual (who was surprisingly receptive and understanding) about DVI handshakes. One of his coworkers (supervisor ?) tried to tell me that it was required by digital copy protection standards that connection by DVI had to disable all other (analog) outputs :D

They were told I was connected to a Samsung DLP but I was never asked for model number or any other specific information. Should we all place additional calls to customer support and ask to be escalated to Level 3 to voice our complaints and provide additional info ?

Bubster

08-10-06, 08:41 PM

I was always told that the PACE box is a much better box and that it changes channnels more quickly and definitively. Have you found that the SA box changes channels as quickly as the PACE? Are you able to use both DVI and COMP?

The SA box does switch slower but not enough to bother me. I won't hook up the component cables to this box since DVI works well so I can't answer that. No choice for bar color is the only real complaint I have at this point.

DIrick17

08-10-06, 09:59 PM

[QUOTE=gerhard911]Hey DIrick17 welcome to AVS and this thread ! It sounds like you may have some inside info on all of this. Any more you can share with us ?

As for TWC Level 3 thats where I ended up when I wouldn't let the Level 1 script reader blow me off. I was probably one of the first to complain about all of this but the only issue they were prepared to deal with was the change to how you selected the aspect ratio.

In my attemts to describe the DVI problem I had to educate the Level 3 support individual (who was surprisingly receptive and understanding) about DVI handshakes. One of his coworkers (supervisor ?) tried to tell me that it was required by digital copy protection standards that connection by DVI had to disable all other (analog) outputs :D

Glad to be on board and thanks for the welcome......FYI...Level 3 normally only handles HSD and DP issues, but was asked to jump in an help on this one. They just started the list late today....I passed on your comments from above, including model number. I'll have more info early next week... :D

Sea Ray

08-11-06, 01:11 AM

OK, tonight I disconnected my DVI for now and rebooted my PACE box. After setting the box to an HD channel, the box connected via COMP inputs. I was pleased to see that the aspect ratio was fine and that I had my black bars back again. I didn't have a lot of time to watch TV tonight but I noticed black bars on 912 (WKRC-DT), 30 (ESPN), 3 (WXIX) and 84 (Fox News) but channel 12 (WKRC) was stretched, ie no black bars. Can't explain that one.

No grey bars anywhere. I'll be out of town for the next few days. I'm going to leave my PACE box as it is and see where we stand next week. I'm thinking my box is not the problem but the way TWC has programmed it. I'm glad to hear that TWC is aware of their boo boo and is working on it. The company line of "oh, all you have to do is go into preferences and adjust your aspect ratios" was clearly inadequate.

terryfoster

08-11-06, 08:08 AM

I noticed black bars on 912 (WKRC-DT)

Your Pace box is not responsible for the black bars on 912.

Sea Ray

08-11-06, 09:03 AM

Your Pace box is not responsible for the black bars on 912.

I had black bars on all the stations I listed: 3, 30, 84, 912

terryfoster

08-11-06, 10:16 AM

I had black bars on all the stations I listed: 3, 30, 84, 912

Sure, I understand you had black bars on those channels, but for clarification your box isn't responsible for the black bars on 912 unless you're talking about letterboxing, not pillar boxing. WKRC-DT handles the pillarboxing at the station. Your box did insert the pillarboxing on 3, 30, and 84.

CincySaint

08-11-06, 06:35 PM

gerhard911

08-11-06, 07:04 PM

My Pace box shows:

Passport 4.2 build 071
OS Ver PowerTV 2.4.20m1 (11001)

Bubster

08-11-06, 08:16 PM

Bubster

08-11-06, 11:12 PM

http://www.twcincy.com/highdefissue/

Pretty sad their solution to the gray bars issue is to stretch the image. That url was mentioned by the call center as you are waiting or navigating thru menus.

dc10forlife

08-12-06, 12:10 PM

TWC has now managed to introduce this problem in Dayton with my 3250HD. Selecting "stretch mode" solved the problem.

Bubster

08-12-06, 08:47 PM

Tonight my DVI became disabled. I powered on to HBO-HD as it always does, saw 30 seconds of the movie, as soon as I switched channels it told me my tv doesnt support HDCP to please use Component. As I read this message i can see the movie in the background where black bars would normally be on a 4x3 broadcast.

So how are the HD offerings from the dish providers these days? Worth looking into? I am fed up with TWC.

Bill R (# 2)

08-12-06, 09:57 PM

So how are the HD offerings from the dish providers these days? Worth looking into? I am fed up with TWC.

Dish Network has the most HD channels (29) and their ViP622 HD DVR is better than anything else on the market. DISH doesn't offer the Cincinnati HD locals yet via satellite (they will be on the sat by the end of the year) but the ViP622 has an ATSC tuner to pick up the OTA digital channels. With the 622 you can record three HD channels at the same time (two via satellite and one via OTA). I have had mine since February and I love it.

HDTVChallenged

08-13-06, 11:56 AM

you can record three HD channels at the same time (two via satellite and [only] one via OTA).

And there in is major the drawback for me. On any given Tues or Thursday fall evening, my HD-TiVo is most likely to be hard at work ingesting 2 OTA streams, while I'm watching a third live from another (non-DVR) receiver. 95% of programming on satelllite HD channels is going to get repeated at least once ... OTA not so much. :)

OTOH, it would be kind of cool to have a 622 and an HR10 ... ;) :D

Bill R (# 2)

08-13-06, 08:07 PM

Bill R (# 2)

08-13-06, 08:16 PM

I was plesently suprised this evening when, after about the first 20 seconds of the program (when the Bengals came on the field), it "popped" into HD on WLWT-DT (NBC).

The 8/18 and 9/1 games will be on WKRC. I wonder if they will be carried in HD? The 8/28 game will be on ESPN. I'll bet it will be in HD on ESPN-HD. I sure hope so, I hate the "metal" side bars.

JunkyardDogg

08-13-06, 08:44 PM

All NBC games will be HD. But too bad it looks like total crap! Thanks NBC as this is a national issue because of their WeatherPlus system. WLWT will be receiving a letter and email requesting to drop WeatherPlus during games or atleast lowing bit rate on that channel. Oh, WDTN looks bad too!

terryfoster

08-13-06, 08:47 PM

I'm betting the games carried by WKRC will not be in HD, yes they're being carried by WKRC NOT CBS. The game on the 28th and December 18th will be blacked out on ESPN, so even if the game is in HD on ESPN, we get WKRC's SD feed.

Well, the picture looks better than people described the HOF game last week. There are still some macroblocking issues on fast moving scenes, but overall not bad. No worse than the ND games last year.

I can't wait to see the WKRC-DT's HD picture for NFL games once the CW launches. If you think WLWT-DT's picture is bad.....

jim tressler

08-13-06, 09:38 PM

the espn games will not be blacked out on espn (or at least they have not been in the past) - so we should have hd from espn for those games

tonights nbc telecast looks better than last week, but still looks like crap compared to what it can look like.. wlwt will be getting me a letter from me too! Also - FWIW - I am running wlwt through TSReader and they are giving about 15.5-16.0 mbps to 5-1 and 1.5-1.9mbps to weather plus..

wkrc's pic is going to suffer as well.. I doubt they will shut off the cw - not that local 12 does not want too - I'll bet its the suits from San Antonio that are forcing it!

jim

HDTVChallenged

08-13-06, 11:51 PM

Your "problem" will be solved as soon as the local HD channels are available via satellite. For me, it really isn't a problem now, very rarely are there two network programs that I feel are worth recording. When that rare event does occur I just record one event in SD.

What if a program is only available on an ATSC subchannel? :D In any case, at this point I don't care if HD-LiL ever happens ... for various reasons :)

Bill R (# 2)

08-14-06, 10:29 AM

What if a program is only available on an ATSC subchannel? :D In any case, at this point I don't care if HD-LiL ever happens ... for various reasons :)

For the satellite companies that is not an issue since PBS is the only broadcaster that carries HD programs on a subchannel. Both satellite vendors have decided that they are not going to carry PBS HD-LiL (which I think is really stupid).

HDTVChallenged

08-14-06, 12:34 PM

For the satellite companies that is not an issue since PBS is the only broadcaster that carries HD programs on a subchannel. Both satellite vendors have decided that they are not going to carry PBS HD-LiL (which I think is really stupid).

The point I'm making is that neither D* or E* is ever likely to provide me WLKY-DT (1080i, DD5.1, no multicast) vs. WKYT-DT (downrezzed to 720p, DD2.0, w/ 2 480i subchannels.) Likewise, WBKI-DT (my only hope for any kind CW-HD) will surely be missing. All of these channels are within easy reach of my OTA setup. :)

Even if they were provided, you'll get the extra MPEG4 compression and stat-mux penalties that come with LiL. ....

But of course, YMMV. Like I said, the HR10 and a 622 would be nice. 622 alone, not so much :D

JunkyardDogg

08-14-06, 03:26 PM

Does anyone know the email address for the engineer at WLWT? I never had to write as I rarely have problems with WLWT and rarely watch NBC!

Also, Jim, since you have the TSReader, could you post what bitrates all the stations are sending? It will be interesting to see WKRC with the addition of The CW.

Oh, does anyone know if any station can record HD yet for syndicated shows?

CharlieCardinal

08-14-06, 09:29 PM

Is anyone able to receive Indianapolis, Columbus, Lexington, or Louisville channels from Cincinnati?

I live on a high hill in the 275 loop (with some tall trees around the yard) and antenna web says I should be able to receive Columbus, Indianapolis, and Lexington channels with a large directional antenna (violet).

I have a CM4221 (3021) with a CM Titan3 Preamp but I'm not able the find anything other than Cincinnati and Dayton channels. Wondering if a CM4228 would make a difference, or PR8800? Or should I get another CM4221 and combine them? Any thoughts?

Also, I've noticed alot of local channels bleeding over into adjacent channels, like channel 48 disrupting channel 49. Would a UHF Trap prevent this from happening? I would like to be able to pick up ch 49 from Muncie, IN (80 miles away), but can't tell if I'm even able to get a faint signal because chanel 48 is overpowering the adjacent channels (49 and 47).

DIrick17

08-15-06, 09:32 AM

Hey gang, I just got back from a nice 4 day vacation so sorry I didn't get a chance to reply before I left. I do in fact have some inside info ;)

After I dig out of my vacation mess I'll try to get something going on the items listed above. :D

HDTVChallenged

08-15-06, 11:40 AM

Is anyone able to receive Indianapolis, Columbus, Lexington, or Louisville channels from Cincinnati?

Also, I've noticed alot of local channels bleeding over into adjacent channels, like channel 48 disrupting channel 49. Would a UHF Trap prevent this from happening? I would like to be able to pick up ch 49 from Muncie, IN (80 miles away), but can't tell if I'm even able to get a faint signal because chanel 48 is overpowering the adjacent channels (49 and 47).

You've probably answered your own question here. :) I think the sheer number of transmitters (both analog and digital) in the Cincy/Dayton/Columbus triangle is going to make (true) DX'ing painful. That having been said, Nitewatchman and others have had some success with some stations ... FWIW, I wouldn't consider Columbus to be in the DX range from Cincy.

As for ch49 (Muncie), you're also going to have to contend with co-channel from WDRB-DT in Louisville ... possibly a lost cause.

CharlieCardinal

08-16-06, 10:21 AM

You've probably answered your own question here. :) I think the sheer number of transmitters (both analog and digital) in the Cincy/Dayton/Columbus triangle is going to make (true) DX'ing painful. That having been said, Nitewatchman and others have had some success with some stations ... FWIW, I wouldn't consider Columbus to be in the DX range from Cincy.

As for ch49 (Muncie), you're also going to have to contend with co-channel from WDRB-DT in Louisville ... possibly a lost cause.

Thanks. I was getting a faint signal from WWHO (UPN 53) last night even with my antenna pointed about -90 degrees away from Chillicothe, which is also 80 miles away according to antennaweb. I will probably try to find a good variable UHF Trap and see what kind of difference it can make, and then decide on whether its worth going up to a larger antenna.

By the way, do you know of any Channel Master/Winegard distributors located in Cincinnati? Besides places like Radio Shack or Lowes?

jim tressler

08-16-06, 10:57 AM

charlie - try

Dayton Wintronic
3526 Encrete Lane
Dayton, OH 45439
Phone: (937) 293-0871

I have not purchased from them as they were out of stock when I called - but they were very helpfull.

jim

Bill R (# 2)

08-17-06, 08:22 PM

I noticed this evening that WKRC is now testing the CW "network" on 12.2.

WebHopperWeasel

08-17-06, 09:34 PM

I noticed this evening that WKRC is now testing the CW "network" on 12.2.

You are correct. This test loop will run for 30 days or so until we actually put CinCW on the air in September. The loop may change from time to time. With the addition of SAP and Closed Captioning in the next few days. Also we may test with different content to look at the bandwidth usage and how it affects both 12.1 and 12.2. Any questions let me know.

WebHopperWeasel

microbob

08-17-06, 10:17 PM

dc10forlife

08-17-06, 10:45 PM

Any plans for 5.1 audio? Is it possible to run 5.1 on both the 1080I main channel and a 480i subchannel?

Take a look at WCET sometime (soundstage perhaps). It can be done, but the picture suffers just that much more.

JunkyardDogg

08-17-06, 11:42 PM

I am not sure of the direct connection between audio (DD 2.0 vs. 5.1) and video quality. When a station adds DD 5.1, they are simply using more bandwidth that was already set aside for audio. I believe the main problem with WCET is it has a subchannel (CrEaTe) and gives some bandwidth for public service (Anyone know if this is being used?).

btrcp2000

08-18-06, 07:55 AM

Can anybody tell me what channels are available via QAM on adelphia (I'm in liberty twp)?

I'm picking up strong signals from about d80 to d125, but no actual video, so I assume those are the encrypted channels.

JHolcomb

08-18-06, 08:01 AM

Hi all-

I bought a house, and am doing some renovations before moving in. I need a good installer to put up a quality roof-mounted antenna, and a D* dish. I want both signals distributed to several (possibly up to 5) rooms, and want a neat, clean, professional installation. I don't trust Bluegrass Satellite to do this.

Can anyone recommend a good installer? I am located in Hamilton.

I also need to have broadband service in several rooms. Is it advisable to run cable for this also, or should I just use WiFi?

Thanks.

terryfoster

08-18-06, 08:27 AM

You are correct. This test loop will run for 30 days or so until we actually put CinCW on the air in September. The loop may change from time to time. With the addition of SAP and Closed Captioning in the next few days. Also we may test with different content to look at the bandwidth usage and how it affects both 12.1 and 12.2. Any questions let me know.

WebHopperWeasel

I don't know how much more bandwidth or equipment would be required, but is it at all possible to transmit the CW in widescreen? Since we really don't have a chance to get this station in HD, it would be nice to get the whole picture if only in 480i/p.

I haven't seen the test loop yet, but i'm assuming it is currently 640x480.

William Smith

08-18-06, 12:08 PM

It takes no more bandwidth to send 480i 16 X 9 than 480i 4 X 3, but it does require the encoder know that the feed is 16 X 9. A 16 X 9 SD signal looks horizontally compressed on a 4 X 3 Display ( unless it has a wide screen mode.)

So if they are expecting cable and satellite to get take their feed and pass it on to their customers they have to stay 4 X 3.

All it takes technically is a settop converter and an analog modulator to make the feed available on the analog tier and even less if its on the digital tier.

Now they could letter box it at the station and that would work but those with 16 X 9 sets would have to adjust their displays for best presentation.

Odessit

08-18-06, 12:18 PM

terryfoster

08-18-06, 12:36 PM

So what going happen to channel 64 OTA? Is it going to run the same CW program?

No, they have become the MyNetworkTV affiliate. And our UPN station has become independent.

terryfoster

08-18-06, 12:43 PM

It takes no more bandwidth to send 480i 16 X 9 than 480i 4 X 3, but it does require the encoder know that the feed is 16 X 9.
Incorrect. The ATSC standard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATSC) does allow for 704x480 which is 16x9 SD (think DVD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD)) which would certainly take up more bandwidth.

The caveat that you brought up that I didn't think about is how to deal with the non-ATSC tuners that will get this over cable and satellite. Since they're going to be converting this signal to NTSC for cable and I'm really not sure what for satellite, it would seem possible for them to correct the wide-screen issue, but I doubt anyone would be interested in buying the equipment necessary to make it happen.

William Smith

08-18-06, 01:55 PM

Nope,,

Been there done that got the t- shirt...

I've done it both ways. (KET4 was originally PBS-HD in SD widescreen in 2002)

All SD is 704 X 480 regardless of aspect ratio.. the pixel size is adjusted..and the stream is flagged as wide screen to adapt the decoder..

Same number of bits less horizontal resolution... the only solution is to have the decoders at the cable headends/ sat providers..switch to letterbox mode which will reduce the active vertical resolution from 480 lines to about 320 lines.. which is what you have watching letterboxed video on an SD set.

So you get a widescreen image that is softer than its 4 X 3 full screen counterpart.

The only two ATSC standard resolutions for 4 X 3 are 640 X 480 and 704 X 480..

I have used 640 X 480 but only for feeds with relatively static images ( think radar).

terryfoster

08-18-06, 02:08 PM

I've done it both ways. (KET4 was originally PBS-HD in SD widescreen in 2002)

All SD is 704 X 480 regardless of aspect ratio.. the pixel size is adjusted..and the stream is flagged as wide screen to adapt the decoder..

Same number of bits less horizontal resolution... the only solution is to have the decoders at the cable headends/ sat providers..switch to letterbox mode which will reduce the active vertical resolution from 480 lines to about 320 lines.. which is what you have watching letterboxed video on an SD set.

I didn't mean to offend since it sounds like you're a local broadcaster. You might want to check out the ATSC Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATSC) and make adjustments to this data. I assumed it was accurate but your experience says it isn't.

upgrade-itis

08-18-06, 02:46 PM

Wow, nice to see the techies in house. I only complain about lack of 5.1 on some local stations.

William Smith

08-18-06, 04:36 PM

Wow, nice to see the techies in house. I only complain about lack of 5.1 on some local stations.

Been here since 1999...

If the programs come from PBS with 5.1 KET4 will pass them through unless something is broken I don't know about..

on Bandwidth/format issues..

If you're discussing 480p instead of 480i then bandwidth requirments will increase due to the differences in refresh time..

William

CincySaint

08-18-06, 07:28 PM

CharlieCardinal

08-18-06, 10:01 PM

Yesterday the guide showed them broadcasting the CBS national game on 912 at 8pm. I set that to record. I had forgotten about the Bengals. So just know when I went to check,I realized what happened and I started to record the Bengals and found that 912 is carrying the Bengals, too. So I missed the first 30 minutes of the Bengals game.

URGHH.......

Maybe you should dump TWC and go with Dish or DirecTV. I did a couple years ago and have no regrets. More chnanels, lower price, better service. I still use TWC for road runner which is actually pretty good, so I am not anti Time Warner.

jim tressler

08-19-06, 03:05 PM

Here are stats from TSReader for WKRC and WHIO - Both showing golf in hd this afternoon

12-1 = 13.3mbps to 14.5mbps
411kpbs for DD2.0 stream
12-2 = 2.45mbps to 3.5mpbs

7-1 = 15.0mbps to 15.6 mbps
412kbps for the DD5.1 stream

which looks better? hard to tell.. golf does not move around too much- however, when they show a ground shot of the ball in flight with trees in the background- wkrc artifiacts slightly - whereas whio does not.. probably the 1mbps difference we are seeing.

jim

spikor

08-19-06, 07:54 PM

Anyone else having any problems or are all of the Networks performing Maintence at the same time? I cannot get nothing even a Bleep no signal what so ever. I cannot get anything from Cincinnati,Dayton,Lexington (In between) or Huntington I rotated around every possible way and position towrds the direction of the stations. If I am the only one having the problem I will have to reset and start from scratch. And reprogram everything from like it was from the factory (factory reset). IF I ever get another TV in the future I am getting one with a Seperate tuner. Hope the Dang tuner did not go out. Maybe it is not just me????

jimp2244

08-19-06, 08:28 PM

Everything is working fine for me... all usual channels coming in.

I will say that WKRC-DT is VERY noticeably pixelated now that they've added the CW subchannel. WHIO-DT looks better, and I don't know about the rest of you, but that's what I'm watching on Sundays for Bengals games.

12-2... what a waste

terryfoster

08-20-06, 10:40 AM

Maybe you should dump TWC and go with Dish or DirecTV. I did a couple years ago and have no regrets. More chnanels, lower price, better service. I still use TWC for road runner which is actually pretty good, so I am not anti Time Warner.

I've gone through that same debate several times myself. I have calculated it out and found that it would cost ~$10-20 more per month to switch to a dish, but that ~$10-20 difference is starting to look more and more insignificant due to the better service offerings of both sat companies so my mind still isn't made up. Although I am getting a customer retention deal with TWC right now, so that does affect my monthly fees from them :). I highly encourage that anyone paying full price for digital cable to call and bluff switching to a dish and they will offer you a discount to retain you (if you've been a good customer).

I think when the TiVo Series 3 comes out I may have to rethink the whole dish thing yet again. If I'm willing to drop money on a Series 3, why shouldn't I be willing to drop money on dish equipment?

tbenson81

08-20-06, 10:47 AM

If you are going to switch to Directv or Dish you might as well just stick it out a few more months until you can receive the HD's over the sattelite. Its pointless to switch now and pay to have an antenna installed.

Plus if you have RR - which is hands down the best high speed provider in the area, you arent going to get a good price if its not packaged with their other
products.

Plus - If you have an HD DVR - you are going to be playing at least a couple hundred bucks for that box where you can get it from TW for 8 bucks / month.

Tony

spikor

08-20-06, 11:15 AM

Everything is O.K now on my end. Funny I know it is not possible but it was like a switch was turned off. No signal what so ever not a Bleep then today everything was back to normal. Signal back on. Maybe I live in a Black Hole? Who knows. Maybe the TV was on too long the TV stays on like 18-19 hours? a day. Maybe the tuner got too warm? Like I said who knows?

R_Willis

08-20-06, 12:24 PM

Plus if you have RR - which is hands down the best high speed provider in the area, you arent going to get a good price if its not packaged with their other
products.

I was curious about this. Since I have/had Adelphia and am moving to TWC soon, I wondered what the going rate for Roadrunner is.

What is everyone paying that ONLY has Roadrunner a la carte (meaning no other TWC services)??

Also, post if you have standard service (4/5mb) or the top level service (8mb) and whether you are paying/leasing a modem or not please.

Thanks!!

mlbUC

08-20-06, 04:09 PM

Plus if you have RR - which is hands down the best high speed provider in the area, you arent going to get a good price if its not packaged with their other
products.

Interesting... I now live outside of Dayton, but during my time in Cincinnati (Clifton then Anderson Township) Zoomtown was MUCH better than the quality of my RR. Here in Kettering AT&T (SBC) is better than RR... RR's upload speeds are terrible and cause problems with certain online applications.

CharlieCardinal

08-20-06, 08:37 PM

I was curious about this. Since I have/had Adelphia and am moving to TWC soon, I wondered what the going rate for Roadrunner is.

What is everyone paying that ONLY has Roadrunner a la carte (meaning no other TWC services)??

Also, post if you have standard service (4/5mb) or the top level service (8mb) and whether you are paying/leasing a modem or not please.

Thanks!!

We pay 44.95 for standard RR, without cable TV service. TW does not lease the equipment to you. There is no discount for using your own cable modem. Not sure why you would want the top level service. I play online games (Battlefield 2, COD, etc) and have had no problems with my connection speed, in fact my connection seems faster than most others out there, based on ping times and load speed.

terryfoster

08-21-06, 09:52 AM

I pay $41.95 for standard Earthlink cable internet over the RR network (same service cheaper price) and this is ala carte pricing. Cheaper than most bundled RR rates and gives me dialup if I ever travel and need dialup.

Sea Ray

08-21-06, 10:45 AM

Maybe you should dump TWC and go with Dish or DirecTV. I did a couple years ago and have no regrets. More chnanels, lower price, better service. I still use TWC for road runner which is actually pretty good, so I am not anti Time Warner.

What do you think of the HD picture satellite gives you? I have heard that satellite companies compress these HD pictures more than cable and this is most noticeable on HD.

CincySaint

08-21-06, 10:53 AM

Wow..well I guess I started something here.

A few thougths...

I actually like TWC a lot. My customer service has been excellent. They even came out on New Year's Day to "install" my HD DVR. The installer was out of component cables. As he promised, he came by the next morning at 8am !!! and left them on my door knob.

I have D* and TWC. I added TWC programming due to the availability of HD locals and the reasonable price for renting the HD DVR. I'm pretty pleased with both. I realize that they are plenty of people on AVS complaining about "HD Lite" from D* but I don't have any direct experience with that due to no HD locals, the ridiculous prices for the equipment, and their upcoming change to MPEG-4. But note that the SA 8300 apparently also has some resolution limitations. It still looks good to me but YMMV.

Finally, I'm not dumping D* altogther becuase I'm addicted to Sunday Ticket. :)

This was a one time issue with the program guide that annoyed me. For now, I'm sticking with both providers.

mlbUC

08-21-06, 01:38 PM

What do you think of the HD picture satellite gives you? I have heard that satellite companies compress these HD pictures more than cable and this is most noticeable on HD.

When I switched from TWC to E* (Dish Network) I saw no changes in PQ on any of the channels carried by both. I've been very pleased with E* in the 2 months I've had it, even the "HD-lite" channels on E* (Voom, NFL HD, etc.) look pretty good (better than the bit-starved Cincinnati locals OTA).

Thus far I could not be any happier with my change from Time Warner.

CincySaint

08-21-06, 03:08 PM

, even the "HD-lite" channels on E* (Voom, NFL HD, etc.) look pretty good (better than the bit-starved Cincinnati locals OTA).

I'm curious...why do you say that the Cincinnati locals OTA are bit-starved?

ScottA

08-21-06, 04:04 PM

Just today I finished my move away from TW to Dish Network. I had been a Dish customer for several years but switched to TW when I got my first HD set. At the time, their HD offering was slim and expensive.

I was with TW for 9 months and had several bad experiences with their customer service and although it was nice to have locals in HD, they didn't add a single HD channel in that time (UHD was added for the Olympics but then shut down).

So, here is my solution:
1) I kept TW for the high speed internet access but use Earthlink instead of RoadRunner.
2) Went to Dish Network for TV. This upped the HD channels from about 10 to over 25 and the quality is great. I've also wanted Starz HD.
3) Use OTA when I need local channel HD. Hopefully, Dish will add Cincinnati by the end of the year.

The only time I miss locals in HD is for sports (a bad sitcom in HD is still a bad sitcom).

By the way, we watch a lot of movies so the Platinum Dish package saves me about $10 a month over the package I had with TW.

Anyway, just one geek's opinion. :cool:

// Scott A

mlbUC

08-21-06, 05:08 PM

I'm curious...why do you say that the Cincinnati locals OTA are bit-starved?

I'm referring to the multicasting on a number of the locals... stealing bits from the HD feed to go to the other subchannels.

digital only

08-21-06, 08:54 PM

CincySaint

08-21-06, 11:16 PM

I'm referring to the multicasting on a number of the locals... stealing bits from the HD feed to go to the other subchannels.

But I'm not sure how that factors into discussing the merits of TWC vs. satellite.

CincySaint

08-21-06, 11:18 PM

I don't get it. You can get HD locals for free regardless of whether you have D* or TWC or neither. Why would that factor into the equation?

Of course you are correct. But I like many others don't want to deal with putting up an antenna, fighting with my HOA, etc. This is why D* is rushing to add local HD channels rather than more HD national channels.

Dimitriz

08-22-06, 08:30 AM

Of course you are correct. But I like many others don't want to deal with putting up an antenna, fighting with my HOA, etc. This is why D* is rushing to add local HD channels rather than more HD national channels.

Wont Local HD over sat are going to be compressed and downresed to HD-Lite? at that point I am glad I installed an OTA... not to mention you can get a lot more channels (Dayton) then what sat will give you.

mlbUC

08-22-06, 08:39 AM

But I'm not sure how that factors into discussing the merits of TWC vs. satellite.

I never said anything about TWC when talking about the satellite channels vs OTA.

What I said was the TWC HD tier channels (ESPNHD, HDNet, HDNet Movies, Discovery HD, etc.) looked exactly the same in a side by side comparison on my 720p projector. The only channels that are HD lite on Dish are Voom, NFL HD, Starz HD, and the HD locals (which aren't up for Cincinnati yet). Even though they are "HD lite" (not running at full resolution in E*'s case, unlike D* who cuts the resolution and then compresses the signal) they still look better than most of the OTA HD channels in Cincinnati.

DrDon

08-22-06, 08:47 AM

Of course you are correct. But I like many others don't want to deal with putting up an antenna, fighting with my HOA, etc. This is why D* is rushing to add local HD channels rather than more HD national channels.Heck, it's why D* and E* added local-into-local in the first place. Cable had the advantage of having a clean local signal (ok, that's debatable, but..) and sat could only give subscribers NY and LA net affiliates. Eventually, that was outlawed. Voom's business model was predicated on the subscriber tuning local channels over the air. But what was a very popular complaint on these boards about Voom? No HD networks. Granted, a lot of stations weren't up, yet ..and many weren't HD or full power. Voom was 5 years too early. Come online now with both ESPNs, both HDNets, USA, TNT, all the others and some regional sports nets and they might have had a chance. But they still would be at a disadvantage without local channels. Joe Sixpack just doesn't want to mess with an antenna.

But I digress...

Doc

jimp2244

08-22-06, 02:44 PM

All I want is FSN-Ohio for the Reds and ESPN-HD for sports. Why do I have to pay $60-70 per month for that? I'm getting everything else I watch for free off the HD locals OTA.

The more I think about it, the more a la carte cable makes sense.

jimp2244

08-22-06, 10:42 PM

DrDon

08-22-06, 11:35 PM

Any news on whether WKRC will carry the ESPN-HD feed in HD for the Bengals/Packers game on Monday? How about the Bengals/Colts game on Dec 18?

Will they carry the Thursday night NFL network game on Nov 30? If so, will we get the HD feed? ESPN has not made the HD feed available for broadcast in the past. Even if they did, WKRC would have to shell out for the gear to receive it. Quite an expense for one game here and there.

CincySaint

08-23-06, 02:31 PM

Any news on whether WKRC will carry the ESPN-HD feed in HD for the Bengals/Packers game on Monday? How about the Bengals/Colts game on Dec 18?

Will they carry the Thursday night NFL network game on Nov 30? If so, will we get the HD feed?

TitanTV.com lists the WKRC broadcast as SD.

Will we get the ESPN HD broadcast or will it be blacked out?

jimp2244

08-23-06, 02:41 PM

Bengals.com lists ESPN and WKRC as broadcasting the game. I'm just trying to figure out if I'll need cable to watch in HD. Like I said earlier, it seems like so much of a waste to get cable just for FSN and ESPN-HD.

[Edit] I think I misread your question. I'm not sure, but I believe in the past that you could watch on either ESPN or WKRC (not blacked out on ESPN).

jim tressler

08-23-06, 02:42 PM

we will get the game on espn-hd - it will not be blacked out - however, local12 will not carry the game in hd

Sea Ray

08-23-06, 02:44 PM

Bengals.com lists ESPN and WKRC as broadcasting the game. I'm just trying to figure out if I'll need cable to watch in HD. Like I said earlier, it seems like so much of a waste to get cable just for FSN and ESPN-HD.

I'd say if you want the ESPN games in HD, yes you'll need cable

Bluestraw

08-23-06, 05:36 PM

Some good news to share, courtesy of the Chief Engineer at WCPO...

WCPO have completed the install of their 5.1 equipment :) Network 5.1 shows will passthru sound directly, and Network 2.0 shows plus local content will be 'upconverted' to 5.1 at the station.

I'm sure they'd be interested to hear all feedback!

Bill R (# 2)

08-23-06, 08:57 PM

I'd say if you want the ESPN games in HD, yes you'll need cable

Why do you leave out satellite? I have seen ESPN-HD via Insight cable and it sucks (way over compressed). It is much better via satellite, in my case, DISH Network.

dc10forlife

08-23-06, 09:05 PM

Keep in mind that reports are that the NFL has mandated that ESPN make available the HD feed to the local station. It is up to the local station whether to broadcast the game in HD. Supposedly, the first pre-season monday night games have been available in HD on the local stations from the ESPN HD feed.

microbob

08-23-06, 09:32 PM

Sea Ray

08-24-06, 10:36 AM

Why do you leave out satellite? I have seen ESPN-HD via Insight cable and it sucks (way over compressed). It is much better via satellite, in my case, DISH Network.

I was referring directly to this post:

Originally Posted by jimp2244
Bengals.com lists ESPN and WKRC as broadcasting the game. I'm just trying to figure out if I'll need cable to watch in HD. Like I said earlier, it seems like so much of a waste to get cable just for FSN and ESPN-HD.

This particular poster apparently was considering cable vs over the air so I responded directly.

Sea Ray

08-24-06, 10:53 AM

When I still had my Pace box it would give me black bars after a reboot. Sometime thereafter the bars became gray on the upconverted 4x3 SD material coming thru the Pace box. I bet you see the same thing eventually.

Well now it's been a couple weeks and my PACE box is working OK thru COMP. No grey bars at all just a few quirky aspect ratio issues. Most of the analog stations set up fine but last night ESPN 2 was stretched to wide screen while ESPN was fine (black bars). I'm going to hook up the DVI and see if that's still screwed up. I suspect it will be. At that point I'll go back to TWC and see where we stand. I expect then I'll progress to swapping boxes and we'll see how they compare. If I don't like the next box I get, I'll get another.

It is a little slower to change channels now and overall I think the picture isn't quite as sharp but I don't know. In my opinion my best picture ever from TWC was right after they added ESPN-HD. I don't know if they bumped up the signal strength, bandwidth or what but that helped the picture across the board, not just the HD tier. The picture is not of that quality right now.

jim tressler

08-24-06, 11:12 AM

Paul210

08-24-06, 11:24 AM

Jim,

I've been using Packet8 (http://www.packet8.net) for a couple years. They're $19.99/mo. unlimited US and Canada. With taxes and fees, the total is $23.48/mo.

Paul

travx7

08-24-06, 11:31 AM

Has anyone used CableCard from TW? I will be VERY tempted when Tivo S3 comes out. :D

chrisirmo

08-24-06, 12:00 PM

Jim,

I'll throw in another vote for Packet 8. They've been great for the past few years. I originally went that way because Vonage didn't have the 513 area code until just recently. I've been nothing but pleased with them since.

microbob

08-24-06, 12:15 PM

I'm a packet 8 subscriber too. Cincinnati Bell was very expensive .For a local basic line no long distance service my bill was around $50.00 a month versus 23.59 a month and unlimited long distance.

btrcp2000

08-24-06, 01:10 PM

i use sunrocket, $200/yr two years now. They have been running a special off and on for 2 yrs @ $200 for new subscribers. Only have had a few brief periods with no service mostly due to the internet connection, which is adelphia, but I can't really remember the last time I had a problem.

terryfoster

08-24-06, 01:53 PM

Vonage, Packet8, Earthlink, and TWC use Level 3 Communications for their VoIP backbone in this area (probably Sunrocket too). Save yourself some money and go with the cheapest provider with the best in home equipment and calling features.

I've been using AT&T CallVantage service and have had zero problems, but if I knew then what I know now I would have gone with Packet8.

I can't emphasize enough that the TA (Telephone Adapter) needs to be able to provide QoS (Quality of Service). To effectively do this the TA must be placed in between your router and your modem. Yes, there are routers out there that can provide QoS for TAs that sit behind the router, but unless you have one of those already, just get a good TA that provides QoS.

Most of the bad VoIP experiences I have heard were either caused by poor internet connections or lack of QoS.

terryfoster

08-24-06, 01:59 PM

Has anyone used CableCard from TW? I will be VERY tempted when Tivo S3 comes out. :D

Here's an earlier account of someone using CableCard with TWC.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7588397&&#post7588397

jhump

08-24-06, 02:15 PM

jimp2244

08-24-06, 02:26 PM

I live in the Forest Park area and I just purchased an VU90_XR from radio shack to get local HD. I have Dish Network as my provider. I did a scan for all the local HD channels and I could only get 21 channels. I couldn't get any of the Dayton channels. Is there some who lives close that picks up any channels outside the Cincinnati area? I think I read that someone picks up Lousivlle channels. Any feed back would be great!

With that antenna and your location you shouldn't have too much of a problem getting most if not all of the Dayton channels. Did you position the antenna to point toward Dayton? Is it mounted on your roof? Are there any obstacles (trees, buildings, etc.) that are between it and Dayton? I am inside the 275 loop and can get most of the Dayton stations with an indoor antenna (not always reliably). I also have the VU190 XR (very large) but I still have yet to find a place to put it.

jhump

08-24-06, 02:33 PM

Well the funny thing is that I have a Winegard Sharpshooter I used for inside and didn't have any problems getting Dayton channels. I stuck an antenna outside and I can get Dayton Channel 2 but can't get whio or wket. Can you pick up any other cities? I have a 5 ft mask.

Bluestraw

08-24-06, 04:45 PM

I just checked, George Lopez is not in 5.1 audio tonight.Yeah, seems they had a small 'hiccup' at the last minute and had to take things offline last night. Should be back tonight I hear.

jimp2244

08-24-06, 05:52 PM

terryfoster

08-24-06, 07:10 PM

WCPO-DT finally has their 5.1 audio in operation tonight and now with real 5.1 audio we are missing the dialog track.

jimp2244

08-24-06, 08:16 PM

Yes, but right now, I was flipping during a Fox break and noticed that I couldn't hear people talking. I can hear the music and other background sounds, but it appears as if the center channel is not coming through. I will check my set up, but I don't think it's me as it's not happening on other channels.

microbob

08-24-06, 08:17 PM

The dialog channel is missing on Grey's Anatomy. It's there during commercial breaks

jimp2244

08-24-06, 08:21 PM

as of right now, it's fixed. It was not my set up.

terryfoster

08-24-06, 08:22 PM

Yes, but the difference between GA and the commercial breaks is one is in real 5.1 and the other is "upconverted" (as so well put in an earlier post). I called in, they fixed it, and now it's broken again, and now it's fixed again :).

microbob

08-24-06, 08:32 PM

WCPO-DT sounds much better than WLW-DT WCET-DT which is missing the center channel during 2.0 programming. They are always in 5.1 and don't switch to 2.0 automatically.

jimp2244

08-24-06, 09:41 PM

And WKRC was in SD for at least part CSI, while WHIO had it in HD. The Office looked great though on WLWT

Bill R (# 2)

08-25-06, 07:45 PM

Any news on whether WKRC will carry the ESPN-HD feed in HD for the Bengals/Packers game on Monday?

I talked to someone in the promotions department at WKRC this afternoon and he said that the game on Monday will be carried in SD on WKRC.

dcldeal

08-25-06, 11:57 PM

jimp2244

08-26-06, 08:40 AM

Just got a new LCD TV and tried setting up the ATSC - get all channels except for Channel 10 (9.1). Do folks have any advice? I've pointed in different directions/locations - I usually get about a 55 signal and poor reception, if any.

I've read some of this thread on an FM Trap or other stuff - is there anything I can buy, or is it just a weaker signal.

Thanks for anyone's help!

I have found WCPO (9-1) to be one of the harder Cincinnati stations to receive. What kind of antenna are you using? My guess is that you are using an indoor antenna that favors UHF. WCPO broadcasts, as you said, on channel 10 which is VHF.

dcldeal

08-26-06, 09:45 AM

Thanks for the reply - I have the Zenith HDTV antenna - I thought it was suppose to read both UHF and VHF. Do I just need a better antenna then? Thanks.

I have found WCPO (9-1) to be one of the harder Cincinnati stations to receive. What kind of antenna are you using? My guess is that you are using an indoor antenna that favors UHF. WCPO broadcasts, as you said, on channel 10 which is VHF.

dcldeal

08-26-06, 09:46 AM

I got like 17 channels in the Auto scan - just can't get 10; I moved it around my house and was able to get a 56% signal strength,but that was the best I could do with 10.

Sea Ray

08-26-06, 10:29 AM

Update on HDTV boxes from TWC:

I just replaced my PACE Box with the 3200 SA box. The PACE box would not receive DVI at all. It would receive COMP with a few aspect issues and black side bars.

The SA box gives me grey side bars and does work on DVI and it will work on COMP but only if DVI is disconnected. Neither box will allow a pass through option thru settings/output. The SA box will allow me to choose any of the possible outputs (except for pass) on the COMP. It will not allow anything other than 720p on the DVI. Perhaps that's because my Samsung TV is native 720p?

I'm not real thrilled with the picture quality and I think it's due to TW insisting that their box do the scaling. A pass through option would leave the scaling up to my HD TV. The best way I can describe the picture is that there is a slight strobing effect. It's like the SA box needs a slight moment to scale or decipher the picture. I get a better picture on analog stations through my Toshiba DVD recorder because it scales the picture. That setup involves the cable connected directly to the Tosh which then is connected via a COMP input to the TV thus avoiding the cable box.

I'm going to play around with this for a week and I'm having a service call this Friday at which time I'll troubleshoot as specifically as possible.

A couple years ago I was very pleased with TWC. Since that time I've noticed a decrease in picture quality and increased prices. I've seen satellite companies providing ESPN HD and the NFL Network. Now this box fiasco most likely due to their programming/downloads. They're pushing me to look very seriously at D* after they roll out their HD locals and MPEG 4.

Nitewatchman

08-26-06, 12:29 PM

Thanks for the reply - I have the Zenith HDTV antenna - I thought it was suppose to read both UHF and VHF. Do I just need a better antenna then? Thanks.

If you mean the Zenith Silver Sensor (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/silver.html) , it is UHF only antenna. Not saying it sometimes isn't possible to have a "strong enough" signal to receive VHF signals with UHF antenna, but it Usually is a good idea to use antenna(s) designed for both VHF+UHF reception if you're trying to receive VHF+UHF signals ...

If your antenna doesn't have a VHF section(if it doesn't have "rabbit ears" it probably doesn't) You could try combining VHF rabbit ears with UHF only antenna with a VHF/UHF joiner such as CM # 0549 ( http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/joiners.htm) . I think Radio Shack may have a VHF/UHF joiner as well, you might even be able to find one in the A/V rack at Meijer/walmart/etc. As "indoor type" antennas go, you won't find a "better" VHF antenna than "rabbit ears"(1/2 wavelength dipole)

Keep in mind, VHF is also more prone to interference from nearby appliances, including via your A/C wiring/etc, which is generally much less of a problem with outdoor antenna. If you have an interference problem such as this, you'll see "static" and "sparkles" and such on analog VHF stations. FM interference is seen as Herringbone pattern, or diagonal "sqiuggly lines" on analog TV signals and can be caused by "overloaded" preamp or receiver front end (this is one of the main things "FM traps" are for) or a nearby hi-power FM transmitter - the latter which really shouldn't be a problem on channel 10 in cincinnati area as FCC generally has this sort of thing worked out fairly well.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are some links yourself and others interested in improving their OTA reception should find useful :

OVER-THE-AIR DIGITAL TELEVISION RECEPTION FAQ: New to OTA? Start here! (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=611957)

About TV and FM Antennas (http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennadex.html)

Getting the most out of Rabbit ears (http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html)

Antenna Basics (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html)

Antenna Info/ "main" HDTVPrimer Antenna page (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html)

digital only

08-26-06, 02:51 PM

With that antenna and your location you shouldn't have too much of a problem getting most if not all of the Dayton channels. Did you position the antenna to point toward Dayton? Is it mounted on your roof? Are there any obstacles (trees, buildings, etc.) that are between it and Dayton? I am inside the 275 loop and can get most of the Dayton stations with an indoor antenna (not always reliably). I also have the VU190 XR (very large) but I still have yet to find a place to put it.

I've got a VU190. I just threw out the back half of it since that was channels 2-6 and use the front half. Its still big, but managable.

digital only

08-26-06, 02:59 PM

guys - not to change gears.. but is anyone using tw digital phone? what about vonage? any other low cost voip providers to check out? Cincinnati bell is just getting to pricey - even with the bundeling crap.. since I am about to drop them for wireless service I am looking at options.. twc and zoomtown are $41.95 stand alone for internet with no bundling so I figure with zt or rr plus voip phone I can save about $25 a month..

thanks

jim

My understanding is that Cincinnati bell will not sell you "naked DSL" without a phone line subscription. I was offered the "lifeline" service which is a pay per outgoing call plan for about $45/month.

jim tressler

08-26-06, 04:05 PM

did that include zoomtown dsl?

My understanding is that Cincinnati bell will not sell you "naked DSL" without a phone line subscription. I was offered the "lifeline" service which is a pay per outgoing call plan for about $45/month.

digital only

08-26-06, 04:21 PM

did that include zoomtown dsl?

yes, Zoomtown plus a phone line that you recieved calls for free but all outgoing were something like $0.03 /min.

jimp2244

08-26-06, 09:30 PM

I've got a VU190. I just threw out the back half of it since that was channels 2-6 and use the front half. Its still big, but managable.

I have on occasion set up the VU190 in the spare bedroom which has a conveniently facing large window, and yes, I threw out the back half as well in order to make it fit in the room. I am in a condo, and if I read the FCC rules correctly, I can put the antenna up in my "limited use" common area space. However, my common area space is not large enough for the antenna! My HOA forbids antennas completely, but even if I were to argue that with the FCC rules that say they must allow it, the FCC only says I can put it in my limited use area so I am still out of luck with the VU190.

I may grab one of the 8-bay "flyswatter" UHF directionals and see how it does in the attic (yes I know the attic is a bad place, but where else can I put it?). I'm open to other suggetsions. I currently can get all the Cincinnati stations (minus WCPO) fine and WHIO and WDTN digitals out of Dayton with my current setup. I can also get WRGT and WKEF (Dayton) and WCPO (Cincinnati) digitals with some adjustment. My current setup is a silver sensor pointing out the spare bedroom window by the way.