tonights bandwith during football

wkrc (12.1) - 14.4mbps-15.0mbps
cincw (12.2) - 2.1mbps-3.0mbps

whio (7.1) - 15.9mbps-17.7mbps

hate to say it - whio looks better during the action sequences.. 12.2 is definatly putting the hurt on 12.1.. although - 12.1 still looks better than that crap NBC has spewed the last few weeks!

go browns!

jim

I have on occasion set up the VU190 in the spare bedroom which has a conveniently facing large window, and yes, I threw out the back half as well in order to make it fit in the room. I am in a condo, and if I read the FCC rules correctly, I can put the antenna up in my "limited use" common area space. However, my common area space is not large enough for the antenna! My HOA forbids antennas completely, but even if I were to argue that with the FCC rules that say they must allow it, the FCC only says I can put it in my limited use area so I am still out of luck with the VU190.

I may grab one of the 8-bay "flyswatter" UHF directionals and see how it does in the attic (yes I know the attic is a bad place, but where else can I put it?). I'm open to other suggetsions. I currently can get all the Cincinnati stations (minus WCPO) fine and WHIO and WDTN digitals out of Dayton with my current setup. I can also get WRGT and WKEF (Dayton) and WCPO (Cincinnati) digitals with some adjustment. My current setup is a silver sensor pointing out the spare bedroom window by the way.

My 190 is in my attic. It was a bear to manage but I unfolded it once it got it in place.

[
because I can't believe that none of Cincy's cutting edge HT mavens have an answer to my question :) .

QUOTE=JHolcomb]Hi all-

I bought a house, and am doing some renovations before moving in. I need a good installer to put up a quality roof-mounted antenna, and a D* dish. I want both signals distributed to several (possibly up to 5) rooms, and want a neat, clean, professional installation. I don't trust Bluegrass Satellite to do this.

Can anyone recommend a good installer? I am located in Hamilton.

I also need to have broadband service in several rooms. Is it advisable to run cable for this also, or should I just use WiFi?

Thanks.[/QUOTE]

I'd like to have a built-in entertainment center designed and installed. Any recommendations?

when does the cw channel 12.2 go live? Anyone know?

CinCW - september 18 I beleive

when does the cw channel 12.2 go live? Anyone know?
The CW Network will be on the air 9/18/2006 with new programing 9/20/2006. (http://www.zap2it.com/tv/news/zap-cwpremieredates,0,1559260.story?coll=zap-tv-headlines)

Is there a reason why I can get only one Dayton Channel? I can only get channel 2. Isn't the rest of the channels in the same direction. I have antenna mounted on my roof.

[
because I can't believe that none of Cincy's cutting edge HT mavens have an answer to my question :) .

QUOTE=JHolcomb]Hi all-

I bought a house, and am doing some renovations before moving in. I need a good installer to put up a quality roof-mounted antenna, and a D* dish. I want both signals distributed to several (possibly up to 5) rooms, and want a neat, clean, professional installation. I don't trust Bluegrass Satellite to do this.

Can anyone recommend a good installer? I am located in Hamilton.

I also need to have broadband service in several rooms. Is it advisable to run cable for this also, or should I just use WiFi?

Thanks.[/QUOTE]

As far as broadband. I would run Cat6 cable if you can without to much trouble. You don't have to worry about security like with Wi-Fi, it transfers files betweeen computers in your house faster than Wi-Fi and you can always add Wi-Fi later if you want.

As if it weren't bad enough we're stuck with SD for the Bengals game... every time a commercial comes on it blows me out of the room.

Turn the commercials down or turn the ESPN feed up!

Can't you get ESPNHD? Or do you not have cable/satellite?

I'd love ESPN-HD (and FSN) but if that's my only reason for cable or satellite, I can't justify the cost. I might cave eventually, but right now I'm saving $60+ per month.


Also, WLWT will be carrying the NFL Network feed for the Thursday, Nov. 30 game against the Ravens. Maybe they'll be able to handle the HD feed. Apparently WKRC didn't want to set up to convert the 720p from ESPN to their 1080i.

Maybe someone out there knows the answer to this... How much is involved in converting the 720p ESPN stream to the affilliate's 1080i stream?

Also, William Smith from KET may be a good resource for this.... I know that KET switches from 480i to 720p "on the fly" on one of their channels when HD content starts each night. Couldn't the affilliate (WKRC tonight or WLWT on Nov 30) just pass along the 720p stream?


I for one think that Reds games should be broadcast over the air (try WSTR or WBQC, who I'm sure could draw more viewers with a Reds game than with their current content). And, I think ESPN should sign up local affilliates, and become like NBC/CBS/FOX. An all sports network with local affilliate coverage. Again, take WBQC or WSTR (every city has got the hardly viewed channels that could be used for this.)

Is Friday's game being shown in HD anywhere? I was looking all over the place tonight and TitanTV doesn't have channel 12 airing it in HD, its not listed on HDsportsguide and it's not being shown on NFLHD or ESPNHD.

Nope, not in HD. It's being locally produced.

no hd last night from wxix for Prison Break :(

no hd last night from wxix for Prison Break :(
And for some reason my 8300HD decided to just stop recording 13 minutes into the show. :mad:

I for one think that Reds games should be broadcast over the air (try WSTR or WBQC, who I'm sure could draw more viewers with a Reds game than with their current content). And, I think ESPN should sign up local affilliates, and become like NBC/CBS/FOX. An all sports network with local affilliate coverage. Again, take WBQC or WSTR (every city has got the hardly viewed channels that could be used for this.)

Ok... I'll bite.

WSTR and WBQC don't have the kind of money to be able to offer the Reds that FSN Ohio does. Even if WSTR was able to sign up a large group of affiliates they wouldn't be able to get that kind of money that FSN offers. Even the Braves and Cubs are moving to cable networks, much less of their games make it on their "superstations" because the money is not as good and the stations are getting the ratings needed to continue raising the payouts to the teams.

As far as ESPN going on to local affilliates, that would be a pretty dumb move on their part, IMHO. Right now ESPN gets money from both advertisers and viewers/cable/satellite systems. Even if the affilliates paid them to be on their airwaves the amount of money collected would be much smaller than the amount they get paid currently from the cable companies. Sporting events on TV have also become a loss leader for the over the air networks as they don't get enough ratings to generally turn a profit, but instead they can push their other shows during the broadcast. They then make money on the other shows.

Unfortunately for you, jimp2244, if you want to see these channels in your house you will have to sign up for some sort of pay tv company. Also, I wouldn't count on the NFL network game to be placed on local TV in HD. Lastly, for anybody outside of Cincinnati who is a Bengals fan (Dayton, Louisville, Lexington, etc.), you don't get those games OTA. You have to have a large antenna to pick the game up through the Cincinnati station or you have to pay the money to get ESPN, NFL Network, etc.

I watched the Bengals game in HD on ESPN-HD and it looked great. To me it is sad that WKRC-DT hasn't invested in the equipment necessary to be able to carry a HD feed besides CBS. After the game I tuned in WKRC-DT to watch Letterman in HD only to see that it was being carried in SD. I called the station and was told since it was recorded (because the game delayed it) it was only available in SD. According to the person that I talked to, WKRC doesn't have the equipment (server) to record even CBS programs in HD. I don't know if that is true but if it is, it sure says that WKRC needs to upgrade their equipment. It was nice to see the entire Letterman show but if I had known that it was going to be in SD I would have recorded it in HD from WHIO-DT.

I watched the Bengals game in HD on ESPN-HD and it looked great. To me it is sad that WKRC-DT hasn't invested in the equipment necessary to be able to carry a HD feed besides CBS.

The time and money investment necessary for WKRC-DT to cover these twice a year events in HD I'm sure greatly outweighs the benefit. Now, what is sad is the lack of 5.1 audio on WKRC-DT since they are the only major affiliate in Cincinnati that doesn't broadcast in 5.1.

After the game I tuned in WKRC-DT to watch Letterman in HD only to see that it was being carried in SD. I called the station and was told since it was recorded (because the game delayed it) it was only available in SD. According to the person that I talked to, WKRC doesn't have the equipment (server) to record even CBS programs in HD. I don't know if that is true but if it is, it sure says that WKRC needs to upgrade their equipment. It was nice to see the entire Letterman show but if I had known that it was going to be in SD I would have recorded it in HD from WHIO-DT.

Last I knew none of the major affiliates in this area have the ability to time-shift HD, so this isn't limited to WKRC-DT. So Bearcat Bounced(<20 events a year) and local Bengal game coverage(~4 possible this year) delayed shows will be SD only. The number of times time-shifted HD would be used is very limited.

Again, these are "special", "limited" events that aren't supported by network money.

Last I knew none of the major affiliates in this area have the ability to time-shift HD, so this isn't limited to WKRC-DT. So Bearcat Bounced(<20 events a year) and local Bengal game coverage(~4 possible this year) delayed shows will be SD only. The number of times time-shifted HD would be used is very limited.

Again, these are "special", "limited" events that aren't supported by network money.


Jeopardy and Wheel of Fortune are going to be available in HD coming early Sept. For local stations to carry this in HD, they will need HD time shifting equipment. As more "regular" shows go HD, it will become a necessity.

Prison Break on 19...I had lots of breakups and problems..then it came in HD all of the sudden. Anybody else see this??

the first few minutes I saw were full of breakups (ota) then I stopped watching.. I will try and watch tonight to see if hd popped in

Jeopardy and Wheel of Fortune are going to be available in HD coming early Sept. For local stations to carry this in HD, they will need HD time shifting equipment.
My guess is that WCPO-DT would be the only carrier of WoF and Jeopardy in this market and who knows when they will decide for when it is "profitable" to buy the equipment. We also don't know if this equipment is funded in part by King World/Sony. This still leaves WXIX-DT, WKRC-DT, and WLWT-DT as major local affillates without immediate demands for time-shifting technologies.

As more "regular" shows go HD, it will become a necessity.

I'm not sure what you mean by "regular" shows, unless you mean syndicated shows. Yes, when highly rated syndicated shows go HD (like WoF and Jeopardy) the local affiliates will feel the pinch to get time-shifting equipment.

Certainly as time goes by, local affiliates will replace all of their SD equipment with HD equipment, but at this time there is little demand for technologies such as time-shifting and receiving alternate satellite uplinks in this DMA.

I bought a house, and am doing some renovations before moving in. I need a good installer to put up a quality roof-mounted antenna, and a D* dish. I want both signals distributed to several (possibly up to 5) rooms, and want a neat, clean, professional installation. I don't trust Bluegrass Satellite to do this.

Can anyone recommend a good installer? I am located in Hamilton.

Most of us here DIY, which is probably one reason why you haven't gotten a response on this .... A couple of folks in the past have had good things to say about "TNT Pictures" OTA antenna installs(they do sat dish installs as well I believe). So, best thing I could suggest would be to use the "search this thread" function and search for "TNT pictures" or "installer".

FYI, sort of doubt a ~ -5db signal "reduction" has caused many folks any reception problems --- but, noticed WKRC-DT filed with FCC for an STA for 330KW ERP in late July "due to the unexpected failure of the station's High power amplifier component" ..... (Tube?) ... It says as of 7/28/06 they expected a new one to be delivered in about 8 weeks ...

Full info here (see exhibit 21 near bottom of page for details) :

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101142636&formid=911&fac_num=11289

I'm not sure I understand... They have to file with the FCC to REDUCE power temporarily?

What does STA stand for? What ERP were they at before this?

Haven't seen this mentioned -- Noticed a couple of weeks ago, when the "Bengals TV Network" game was up on WKRC, WBQC carried the CBS feed+the preseason NFL game they had ... Of course, it was available HD from WHIO-DT Dayton .... Last night, however, WBQC had their regular programming, no CBS programming ...

Lastly, for anybody outside of Cincinnati who is a Bengals fan (Dayton, Louisville, Lexington, etc.), you don't get those games OTA. You have to have a large antenna to pick the game up through the Cincinnati station or you have to pay the money to get ESPN, NFL Network, etc.

I don't think it's generally too difficult for most folks In Dayton to pick up the Cincinnati stations OTA, or vice versa. We used to have a fellow in Dayton who posted here+in Dayton thread who every year, stuck his Radio Shack Double Bow Tie out the window to receive HD WEBN fireworks from WKRC-DT. Of course, they haven't done the fireworks in HD since 2002, and the only "time shifted" HD I think we've seen from Cincy station has been a fireworks replay on WKRC-DT, and, when it was around, the syndicated HD-One movies on WKRC-DT ... Both I think with a very "basic" and limited(Not ready for "prime time" I'd guess) setup as for instance, the local commercial spots were usually MIA during the HD-one movies ...

As far as the Bengals preseason games go -- This year, for the home games, we've had one of them HD via NBC, and the other on ESPN/ESPN HD (carried by WKRC as well) - And seems like last year one was on CBS. And, *generally*, most of the Bengals preseason games are local production(bengals TV network) and carried by both a Cincinnati(WKRC) and Dayton(WRGT or WKEF) station, think WTTE Columbus has it as well, one of the Lexington stations might carry it also.

So, you're talking about maybe one or, maybe two at most regular season game a year on ESPN and not on the OTA nets, which is still the case, just on a different night.

As for me, I watched on ESPN(SD) via dish last night because of the distorted aspect ratio on WKRC when they squeezed in the weather messages at bottom of screen. Otherwise, I would have watched on WKRC or WKRC-DT (probably analog OTA - Just like it a little better than the WKRC-DT SD upconvert) because the PQ was a bit better.

I'm not sure I understand... They have to file with the FCC to REDUCE power temporarily?


Yes, they have to contact FCC at any time their operation differs from their Licensed facility. Oftentimes, when it is of a "temporary nature", it can be done "informally", and such details aren't available from FCC site.



What does STA stand for? What ERP were they at before this?

STA= Special Temporary Authority.

They were at 800KW ERP according to their current operating permit(license). See the entry for WKRC-DT under Channel 31 "licensed"/Digital" here :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=WKRC&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

As for me, I watched on ESPN(SD) via dish last night because of the distorted aspect ratio on WKRC when they squeezed in the weather messages at bottom of screen. Otherwise, I would have watched on WKRC or WKRC-DT (probably analog OTA - Just like it a little better than the WKRC-DT SD upconvert) because the PQ was a bit better.

I watched via ESPN(HD) on Directv.

The game was definately SD on WKRC-DT the whole time, checked many times.

And for some reason my 8300HD decided to just stop recording 13 minutes into the show. :mad:

Went to watch last night and my DVR did the same thing. Prison Break will re-air this Friday night on 19 @ 8:00.

Prison Break will re-air this Friday night on 19 @ 8:00.
Thanks, I didn't realize they were reairing it. I tried to check but 4 days just doesn't cut it for guide data.

did those that watched on time warner get any hd? my ota recording was constant dropouts (signal strength was fine) and no hd

Time Warner picture had problems as well. The first 12 minutes were unwatchable and then the picture went straight to next week's scenes that were in HD, at least on my DVR.

Yes, they have to contact FCC at any time their operation differs from their Licensed facility. Oftentimes, when it is of a "temporary nature", it can be done "informally", and such details aren't available from FCC site.


It's never "informal".

The FCC is very clear in Sec. 73.1560 Operating power and mode tolerances.

"In the event it becomes technically impossible to operate at authorized power, a broadcast station may operate at reduced power for a period of not more than 30 days without specific authority from the FCC. If operation at reduced power will exceed 10 consecutive days, notification must be made to the FCC..."

"...If causes beyond the control of the licensee prevent restoration of the authorized power within 30 days, a request for Special Temporary Authority... must be made to the FCC in Washington, DC for additional time as may be necessary."

CPI/EIMAC, the manufacturer of the device in question, builds these things to order these days with an 8 week (minimum) lead time. There are valid reasons, both technical and financial, for not having one "on the shelf" so when you lose one it's an automatic STA filing while you wait.

Just one of the many things that makes my life so much fun.

I am in the eastern side of town, Madeira, and cannot receive WCPO in HD.
SD reception by my TERK indoor antenna is passable but auto scan on my Westinghouse LCD captures nothing.This close to the tower, I should receive something. Auto scan finds channels 5, 12, 19, 48, 64 no problem.

It's never "informal".



Hence the quotation marks, which in this case are not meant to suggest an actual quote ... ;) ...

What I was getting at though concerning STA's in response to jimp2244's comments --- was:

My understanding concerning talking to folks on that end of the stick has been that when "unforseen equipment damage or failure" occurs on a more "temporary" basis they will (necessarily I believe) contact FCC via fax or phone(what I meant by "informal"), and records of those requests won't show up in CDBS ... such as is covered in Section 73.1635 "Special Temporary Authority", paragraph 3 ( here : http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2006/73/1635/ ) -

(3) - (3) A request for a STA necessitated by unforeseen equipment damage or
failure may be made without regard to the procedural requirements of this
section (e.g. via telegram or telephone). Any request made pursuant to this
paragraph shall be followed by a written confirmation request conforming to
the requirements of paragraph (a)(2) of this section. Confirmation requests
shall be submitted within 24 hours. (See also Sec. 73.1680 Emergency Antennas).

---------

I believe in WRKC-DT's current particular case, this(and the section you quoted as is referenced below), paragraph 5 from the same section(STA's - 76.1635) applies :

(5) Certain rules specify special considerations and procedures in
situations requiring an STA or permit temporary operation at variance
without prior authorization from the FCC when notification is filed as
prescribed in the particular rules. See Sec. 73.62, Directional antenna system
tolerances; Sec. 73.157, Antenna testing during daytime; Sec. 73.158, Directional antenna monitoring points; Sec. 73.691, Visual modulation monitoring; Sec. 73.1250, Broadcasting emergency information; Sec. 73.1350, Transmission system operation; Sec. 73.1560, Operating power and mode tolerances; Sec. 73.1570, Modulation levels: AM, FM, TV and Class A TV aural; Sec. 73.1615, Operation during modification of facilities; Sec. 73.1680, Emergency antennas; and Sec. 73.1740, Minimum operating schedule.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Others interested in this sort of thing can find the "full" listing of FCC fules(Hyperlinked - this is main page) from CFR here :

http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2006/

I am in the eastern side of town, Madeira, and cannot receive WCPO in HD.
SD reception by my TERK indoor antenna is passable but auto scan on my Westinghouse LCD captures nothing.This close to the tower, I should receive something. Auto scan finds channels 5, 12, 19, 48, 64 no problem.

As has been mention here many times, WCPO-DT is VHF (channel 10). All the other digital stations are UHF. The problem is your Terk antenna. You need a better antenna that will receive both VHF and UHF stations.

keep in mind that wkrc has petetioned the fcc to go back to broadcast channel 12 after analog shut off - they are currently on 31

TWC tech came out and checked things out today. I didn't expect much so I wasn't disappointed. He said that their recent download was intended to make all their boxes HDMI compatible but in doing that it screwed up the TVs that take DVI. It also makes it impossible to use both COMP and DVI. In my experience PACE didn't take DVI at all and the SA box will work on DVI but COMP will only work if DVI is completely disconnected.

I asked about a pass through option instead of outputing 720p, 1080i, etc and he knew nothing and suggested I call Scientific Atlanta about getting their box to pass through. I of course told him it was their download that changed that but I guess such expertise is beyond his pay grade. He tried to tell me that the gray bar/black bar issue is determined by my TV . When I corrected him on that he admitted that he wasn't sure. Of course he offered to switch out boxes but I thought I'd stick with the SA box and its gray bars rather than go to the PACE with its black bars because at least with the SA I have a working DVI.

He also told me that everything that goes through the cable box is now digital. I'm not sure that that is true. I don't see any difference in the analog channels wall vs box and there is no delay either when going through a box. He told me that the p[icture issues are due to a huge flux in picture strength. It bounces around too much and this results in picture breakouts and so forth. So he's having someone come out and crank down the signal strength. I voiced concern that such a move would hurt more than it would help but we'll see. If they do something and it hurts the picture I'll tell 'em and they'd better at least restore what they've screwed up.

The picture is OK now, just not what it was about a year ago.

For you satellite folks out there, can you toggle back and forth between DVI and COMP or do you have to choose one or the other?

He also told me that everything that goes through the cable box is now digital. I'm not sure that that is true.

Oh, it's true. The only channels that might not be digital are public access.

For you satellite folks out there, can you toggle back and forth between DVI and COMP or do you have to choose one or the other?

I have DISH Network with a ViP622 HD DVR. Both the HDMI and component outputs on the 622 are active all the time.

WXIX must of had a probem with the Prison Break re-broadcast because they're showing Vanished at 8:00 and 9:00. Looks like I'm going to have to download from Itunes.

My guess is that WCPO-DT would be the only carrier of WoF and Jeopardy in this market and who knows when they will decide for when it is "profitable" to buy the equipment. We also don't know if this equipment is funded in part by King World/Sony. This still leaves WXIX-DT, WKRC-DT, and WLWT-DT as major local affillates without immediate demands for time-shifting technologies.



I'm not sure what you mean by "regular" shows, unless you mean syndicated shows. Yes, when highly rated syndicated shows go HD (like WoF and Jeopardy) the local affiliates will feel the pinch to get time-shifting equipment.

Certainly as time goes by, local affiliates will replace all of their SD equipment with HD equipment, but at this time there is little demand for technologies such as time-shifting and receiving alternate satellite uplinks in this DMA.

WCPO can't even do Good Morning America in HD. I seriously doubt that they will do the wheel and Jepardy in HD.

the tivo guide has said vanished all week.. no prison break

WCPO can't even do Good Morning America in HD. I seriously doubt that they will do the wheel and Jepardy in HD.



They can't show GMA in HD because they feel the need to insert that annoying local news ticker at the bottom of the screen. Why can't this be fixed? They should just show the network news ticker.

Hey guys, I just bought a Panasonic E15 Dvd recorder.

My main interest is to record the shows like Lost, House, and other primetime HD shows.

Yes, I know I can't record HD. I know that but I do want to record the HD shows in the 720x480 format and so that I can then set my tv to full mode in playback to maintain widescreen. Besides digital comes in much better than analog where I am at.

That said does cincinnati broadcast these shows with copy once flags? If so that means I can only use DVD-RAM discs on my players. I am hoping to use DVD-RW since I would rather use my standalone player to play back the DVD. I can't finalize the DVD-RAM disc and my standalone won't play them either.

SO My question as a summary is:

1) Does OTA here broadcast DTV primetime shows with copy once flags? (for what it matters my OTA reciever is an RCA ATSC11)

IF the answer is yes then I am going to return my DVD-RW discs and get DVD-RAM discs instead. It will be a bummer if this is the case though as DVD-Recorders aren't as good as player-only devices when it comes to playback.

Thanks.

WXIX must of had a probem with the Prison Break re-broadcast because they're showing Vanished at 8:00 and 9:00. Looks like I'm going to have to download from Itunes.

I'm pretty sure this is available for free on Fox.com.

somewhat of a newbie here, (nitewatchman, you may recall, you helped me in the past--- we're almost neighbors). I'm having a hard time understanding which shows the local stations choose to send out in HD? Just found out Big Brother is HD, but always rec'd in SD on 12-1. As a reality junkie, I'm not embarrassed to admit it, LOL, I want my Big Brother in HD. Not reception problem here-CSI, Letterman all awesome in HD. Saw GMA one morning in HD, thought alright WCPO you're on board, didn't last. UGH! Anyway to put pressure on the loccals?

FWIW, "Big Brother" is not in HD.

Your not going to see many of the reality shows, if any in HD right now. Sometime in the future? Probably.

Check here for national HDTV listings:
http://www.hdtvgalaxy.com/whatson.php?day=2006-09-03&tab=tab1&time=

Sports listings:
http://www.hdsportsguide.com/

HDnet listings:
http://www.hd.net/index.html

Hope this helps!

My mistake, I misread CBS listing.(not allowed to post url) Thought all these shows were HD. So is it correct that if networks have available in HD, the locals will broadcast in HD. Trying to understand------

the tivo guide has said vanished all week.. no prison break

Time Warner guide on my SA8300HD on Tuesday night said Prison Break was showing at 8:00 on Friday. The first episode of season 2 was replayed on Friday of that week.

I'm pretty sure this is available for free on Fox.com.

Noted for next time, already spent the $1.99.

1) Does OTA here broadcast DTV primetime shows with copy once flags? (for what it matters my OTA reciever is an RCA ATSC11)


It's been a while since I've looked into any of that, but I surely hope not ...

Recently, I've been "recording" transport streams from the locals OTA via Firewire from ATSC receiver in Sony KD-34XBR960 to PC --- Among other things I've been trying has been to transcode HD to 720x480 to put on DVD -- So far with DVD +R - authored with MPEG2 program streams -- for the VOB/Ifo/etc. files the DVD players need -- so I can play them in any player -- Looks like my DVD burner supposedly supports just about every DVD format (including DL and DVD-RAM), but we'll see ....

Anyway, So far I haven't run into problems with multiple "copies" of anything, and I've made all sorts of different "copies" of the files(even when keeping them HD)/ran them through TS repair programs, dumux'ed/remuxed/converted to MPG program from Ts, copied them to other machines on a Home Network -- mainly to see how they can handle HD playback as they are older machines --- ... I'm still in the "experimental" stages with this though and still have lots to learn and try ....

So is it correct that if networks have available in HD, the locals will broadcast in HD. Trying to understand------

That is not always the case. The Cincinnati stations don't always show a network HD program in HD (weather alerts, breaking news crawls, etc. cause some of them to only show the programs in SD). Your best to is to have a backup station you can tune to if the local stations are not showing a program in HD. For me, it is the Dayton stations. I don't ever remember a case where a Dayton station showed a network HD program in SD.

Hey guys, I just bought a Panasonic E15 Dvd recorder.

My main interest is to record the shows like Lost, House, and other primetime HD shows.

Yes, I know I can't record HD. I know that but I do want to record the HD shows in the 720x480 format and so that I can then set my tv to full mode in playback to maintain widescreen. Besides digital comes in much better than analog where I am at.

That said does cincinnati broadcast these shows with copy once flags? If so that means I can only use DVD-RAM discs on my players. I am hoping to use DVD-RW since I would rather use my standalone player to play back the DVD. I can't finalize the DVD-RAM disc and my standalone won't play them either.

SO My question as a summary is:

1) Does OTA here broadcast DTV primetime shows with copy once flags? (for what it matters my OTA reciever is an RCA ATSC11)

IF the answer is yes then I am going to return my DVD-RW discs and get DVD-RAM discs instead. It will be a bummer if this is the case though as DVD-Recorders aren't as good as player-only devices when it comes to playback.

Thanks.


I think what you are referring to is the "broadcast flag." This flag was mandated by the FCC so that content providers could insert the flag into broadcasts, which would then tell your recording device that it could not record/copy the content.

The courts overruled this, essentially saying that the FCC has the authority to regulate communication/airwaves, but does not have the authority to regulate what people do once they have received communication content.

However, just because the FCC was defeated doesn't mean that Hollywood, etc. aren't still trying. I think they are lobbying congress right now.

There is more information on this here:

http://www.eff.org/IP/broadcastflag/

Notice HD is up for My TV's premiere tonight from WSTR-DT .... Looks Good, but also noticed the past couple of days they've got a horizontal centering problem with the 4x3 SD upconverts ....

Notice HD is up for My TV's premiere tonight from WSTR-DT .... Looks Good, but also noticed the past couple of days they've got a horizontal centering problem with the 4x3 SD upconverts ....


Noticed the centering problems as well. They are now broadcasting in 720P same as FOX HD. The only other bug is that their 5.1 audio is missing the center channel. It's all in the rear L/R channels

I'm wondering if they are using the same splicer system that FOX uses?

I make extensive use of the on-screen programming guide, and noticed yesterday that WCVN and WXIX are both providing detailed PSIP information now: to the point of giving the added explanatory paragraph.

Noticed the centering problems as well.

Looks like they've got that straightened out with the non-network SD upconverts as of 11:40am ....

I dunno if they're using a Splicer setup, maybe there's a thread/info on it somewhere in programming area ...

BTW, also notice WCPO-DT has "The View" up in HD this morning .... It's SD on WKEF-DT, Dayton ...

Looks like the bleeding is continuing. WXIX has launched a 2nd subchannel! Its a stupid radar screen, just like we had with WKRC. I urge everyone to write WXIX and ask them to drop the radar channel as soon as possible. Why the idea of multicasting was ever created, I have no idea. I can't wait to see how bad the main channel and the Tube look now.

Looks like the bleeding is continuing. WXIX has launched a 2nd subchannel! ....

WXIX is still the FOX affiliate, no? If so, there shouldn't be any significant impact on the main channel ... at least when it matters most.

Looks like the bleeding is continuing. WXIX has launched a 2nd subchannel! Its a stupid radar screen, just like we had with WKRC. I urge everyone to write WXIX and ask them to drop the radar channel as soon as possible. Why the idea of multicasting was ever created, I have no idea. I can't wait to see how bad the main channel and the Tube look now.


I just did a rescan but couldn't pick it up. Lets hope its gone for good.

The radar channel was causing severe break up on 19.1 & 19.2. Looks like they were testing to see if they had enough bandwidth to run a 2nd subchannel. I hope they can't figure it out and drop the idea.

Who needs another weather channel anyway?

Yea! After getting into the attic and some help from my neighbor, I now have my antenna line available in my living room. I also see a good opportunity for installing a pre-amp if I ever feel it necessary. Now I just need my leaves to fall so I can get Dayton again :). Bring on the TiVo Series 3!

Btw, NFL on NBC looks better than I have seen it so far.

^ I will say that ABC had a better picture because when things were moving on the screen, it wouldn't break up constantly. So, for a sport with minimum movement, such as football, NBC does a pretty good job. (Please sense the sarcasism. :P).

current bandwith: wlwt - 5.1 16mbps / 5.2 - 1.5mpbs - looks better then in preseason.. although I was at a meeting tonight, so I am just tuning in.. I will post Dayton in a few -

wdtn = running 2.1 and 2.2 (2.2 is just a sd version of 2.1 - seems like a waste)

2.1 - 15.2mbps - 15.8mbps
2.2 - 2-2.7 mbps

Thanks Jim for posting those bandwidths. I want to guess that this is a national NBC issue as everyone is complaining. But WeatherPlus is pretty widespread too. I want my ABC!

Looks like the bleeding is continuing. WXIX has launched a 2nd subchannel! Its a stupid radar screen, just like we had with WKRC. I urge everyone to write WXIX and ask them to drop the radar channel as soon as possible. Why the idea of multicasting was ever created, I have no idea. I can't wait to see how bad the main channel and the Tube look now.

It seems like we're fighting an uphill battle here. The networks seem to be adding sub channels a lot faster than they're taking them away and that brings up the philosophical basic question: What is the purpose of high defintion TV if it is continually degraded by running subs?

If the powers that be (the networks both local and national) see the technology of digital television as an opportunity to sqeeze more channels and not to give us a stellar picture, aren't we, the HD enthusiasts, screwed?

pretty much - not untill the Joe 6 packs of the world start to bitch as well will things change

I'm currently watching the US OPEN Womens Semi-Final on CBS (2:09PM) via TW Cable. Early in the broadcast it was jumping in and out of HD. It has been non-HD for quite a while now. I assume it isn't a TWC thing.

Anyone else confirm this? Is there a certain phone number I should call and complain or am going to have to just deal with it?

Thanks,
Mike

I noticed that there is also a new channel on Fox 45 (Dayton) WRGT. It is 45-2 and the screen that is up now says future home of MyNetwork TV. I don't remember this news being posted here before (it may be in the Dayton thread... I have not checked).

So it seems that, if Dayton people want My Network in HD, they have to point toward Cincinnati. If Cincinnati people want CW in HD, they have to point toward Dayton.

Hey everybody! Newb here. I just got my Dish Vip622 today (love it thus far) and from what I gather here is that E* is talking about getting the local HD channels soon? Is this correct? ie.: by the end of the year? Or should I get an antenna? I really want to watch some locals in HD and I would appreciate some input on what to do. Wait (if they are coming) or get an antenna? THanks a lot guys!! :)

I get CBS OTA and I checked in on the semi's and it was in SD. I didn't know they were having problems and just cursed CBS for not having such a big event in HD and tuned out. D'oh!

peace . . .


I'm currently watching the US OPEN Womens Semi-Final on CBS (2:09PM) via TW Cable. Early in the broadcast it was jumping in and out of HD. It has been non-HD for quite a while now. I assume it isn't a TWC thing.

Anyone else confirm this? Is there a certain phone number I should call and complain or am going to have to just deal with it?

Thanks,
Mike

not sure when dish will launch hd locals.. they announced them a few months ago.. my guess is this year.. directv will launch mpeg4 hd locals in october here.. so I would expect dish to be close to that date as well. however, even when they do - your best quality will always be OTA - my recomendation is to install an ota antenna and use the mpeg4 stuff as a backup

jim

Hey everybody! Newb here. I just got my Dish Vip622 today (love it thus far) and from what I gather here is that E* is talking about getting the local HD channels soon? Is this correct? ie.: by the end of the year? Or should I get an antenna? I really want to watch some locals in HD and I would appreciate some input on what to do. Wait (if they are coming) or get an antenna? THanks a lot guys!! :)

Hey everybody! Newb here. I just got my Dish Vip622 today (love it thus far) and from what I gather here is that E* is talking about getting the local HD channels soon? Is this correct? ie.: by the end of the year? Or should I get an antenna? I really want to watch some locals in HD and I would appreciate some input on what to do. Wait (if they are coming) or get an antenna? THanks a lot guys!! :)

Hi Chidoy,

Welcome to the forum!

I have had a ViP622 DVR since February and it is a great receiver. As for when DISH will add the satellite delivered locals, as Jim said, it will likely be late this year. You may need a different dish depending on where DISH puts them (rumors are the 110 or 118.75 slot). You should know that DISH (and DirecTV) are only carrying the "big four" (ABC, CBS, NBC, and FOX) and no subchannels so you should get you a good outside antenna and pick up the digital stations that way. The ViP622 has one of the best ATSC tuners on the market and, depending on where you are, even a inside antenna should get you some OTA digital channels. In my area (with an outside antenna) not only can I get a great signal (95+) on the Cincinnati stations I can pick up three of the Dayton channels. When shopping for antennas remember that one of the Cincinnati digital channels is on VHF (WCPO-DT, channel 10). Some of the so called "HD antennas" on the market are UHF only so you need to be aware of that.

http://www.tvpredictions.com/gamehd091106.htm

what are the odds that we will not see this anytime soon from WCPO - pretty good I bet :)

However, I am hearing that the odds ARE good that the NFL Network game will be in HD on WLWT-DT later this fall.

However, I am hearing that the odds ARE good that the NFL Network game will be in HD on WLWT-DT later this fall.

According to some folks that post in the alt.tv.tech.hdtv news group ALL of NBC's (and most of FOX's) NFL games will be in HD this fall.

CBS can only do three games a Sunday in HD (equipment and tranmission limitations). This coming Sunday's (9/17) Cincinnati - Cleveland game will NOT be carried in HD according to CBS's web site.

the fox part is not correct.. they can do up to 6 or 7games per week.. yesterday the cards v. 49ers was not in hd - weather or not they could have is unknown.. but you would have thought that the first game in the brand new cardnial stadium would have been hd

According to some folks that post in the alt.tv.tech.hdtv news group ALL of NBC's (and FOX's) NFL games will be in HD this fall.

CBS can only do three games a Sunday in HD (equipment and tranmission limitations). This coming Sunday's (9/17) Cincinnati - Cleveland game will NOT be carried in HD according to CBS's web site.


Yes, all of NBC "Sunday Night Football" games are in HD. I was actually referring to the Bengals game against the Ravens on Thursday , November 30th. This game is being carried by NFL Network (cable/sat channel). When games in the local market are carried on a cable network, the NFL mandates that a simulcast be provided to a local broadcast affilliate in order to fully serve the local market. Since not many of us get NFL Network, this is a good thing. This is the same thing that happens when the Bengals are on Monday Night Football on ESPN.

This year, Channel 12 (WKRC) is simulcasting the ESPN games.

Channel 5 (WLWT) won the bidding for the NFL Network Thursday night game to which I am referring.

When Channel 12 carries the ESPN feed, they do not carry the HD feed. I was told that this was because they don't want to convert the ESPN 720p stream to fit their 1080i broadcasts.

I have been told that Channel 5 (WLWT) is planning to carry the HD feed from NFL Network. This is dependent on them acquiring the correct equipment, but they ARE planning to do this as of right now. This is great news as most of us around here do not get NFL Network.

the fox part is not correct.

Thanks Jim. You can't always believe everything that you read on the net. :( I changed my post from ALL to most.

the fox part is not correct.. they can do up to 6 or 7games per week.. yesterday the cards v. 49ers was not in hd - weather or not they could have is unknown.. but you would have thought that the first game in the brand new cardnial stadium would have been hd


Yes, but at least they do the wide screen upconverts on non-HD games.

This might sound stupid but just wondering if this is possible???? Lets say your HDTV Digital signal is Breaking up and is unwatchable and this could happen anytime. I always think this will be a problem due to Various reasons Weather and etc. Causing pixelation etc. Or you might live in a Sport that is just out of reach of some cities broadcast signal by mileage etc. Or IF you happen to move etc . in the future??? Is there any way Locally or by using the main Hub lets say New York or other Cities etc of the 212 or so cities whatever the exact number is? that Broadcast ABC,CBS,NBC ,FOX etc. here is my Question that I am getting to bear with me it might sound odd or stupid but here goes. IF your Signal is BLAH unwatchable is there any way to use the Internet connection DSL etc to go to a stations website and pull it in using the computer and feed it to the TV using the Computer hookup or any other Inputs on the Back of the TV??? IF so where is a diagram for a Dummy like me can go to to look over the wiring diagram and to see what cables I need? and the Converters that might be used to convert it from Internet/Computer to the Back of the TV?? And the resolutions or setting that need to me involved to get a good/ great picture???

IF your Signal is BLAH unwatchable is there any way to use the Internet connection DSL etc to go to a stations website and pull it in using the computer and feed it to the TV using the Computer hookup or any other Inputs on the Back of the TV???

Nope, don't think this is an option, and won't be anytime in the near future if at all.

No HD for the Today Show this morning. When are these guys going to figure out that if I want an SD feed with an obnoxious news ticker, I'll switch to analog?

I didn't see a news ticker on WLWT this morning, so I don't know why they didn't have it in HD. WDTN did though and it looked pretty good.

I didn't see a news ticker on WLWT this morning, so I don't know why they didn't have it in HD. WDTN did though and it looked pretty good.
I only watched the first 10 minutes or so before leaving for work. They may have pulled the news ticker, because it was almost impossible to read. They changed it to a more transparent background than their old one and the yellow text didn't really show up against the white desk.

No HD for the Today Show this morning. When are these guys going to figure out that if I want an SD feed with an obnoxious news ticker, I'll switch to analog?

The problem is that no one (or very few) call to complain about no HD. WKRC-DT did the same thing quite often on evening and David Letterman's show until they got complaints and they finally figured out how to fix the problem (HD with the weather warnings).

Lets face it, some of our local stations aren't really serious about HD yet because, they feel, a lot of people aren't watching it. A program manager told me this recently, "there are so few people with HD in our area, right now HD really isn't that important in the Cincinnati market". I told him how wrong that I thought he was but with that kind of attitude I think that you can understand why we don't always get to see network programs in HD on the Cincinnati stations.

Are you sure it was WKRC- I thought it was WCPO

The problem is that no one (or very few) call to complain about no HD. WKRC-DT did the same thing quite often on evening and David Letterman's show until they got complaints and they finally figured out how to fix the problem (HD with the weather warnings).

The problem is that no one (or very few) call to complain about no HD. WKRC-DT did the same thing quite often on evening and David Letterman's show until they got complaints and they finally figured out how to fix the problem (HD with the weather warnings).

Lets face it, some of our local stations aren't really serious about HD yet because, they feel, a lot of people aren't watching it. A program manager told me this recently, "there are so few people with HD in our area, right now HD really isn't that important in the Cincinnati market". I told him how wrong that I thought he was but with that kind of attitude I think that you can understand why we don't always get to see network programs in HD on the Cincinnati stations.

I agree, many people are complacent and don't bother to let the stations know about these kinds of problems. Without input from their HD viewers, stations have no idea we even exist.

For the record I sent an email to the GM (wlwtgm@channelcincinnati.com) by 7:05 and called by 7:10 :D

UPDATE: Just received a response to my email from this morning. "WLWT will begin airing the Today Show in HD tomorrow Thursday, September 14."

Now if WCPO could figure out how to run GMA in HD..

Are you sure it was WKRC- I thought it was WCPO

It could have been WCPO too. I don't watch them that much. I do watch Letterman and WKRC was doing it a lot (switching to SD for commercial breaks and not switching back to HD) earlier this summer. Now, it looks like they have some new automatic switching equipment and I haven't seen it happen in a few weeks.

Sidenote: I did call WLWT about them not showing Today in HD. I got some really nasty young lady who really didn't seem to care about my concern. With an attitute like that it is no wonder that WLWT (and NBC) are so far down in the ratings.

I apologize up front for the impending long post :p

I recently moved to the Monroe area and I'm trying to get my local HD channels OTA just as I did when I lived in Hamilton. The location at my old house allowed me to pull in most of the local HD channels (Cincy and Dayton) by simply putting my CM 3019 antenna in my attic and connecting it to my D* HDTivo (HR10-250). I'm pretty sure this was because I was on top of one biggest hills in city of Hamilton and had no large trees, towers, buildings, etc.

After a few hot hours in my attic and yelling down to my wife, who was using the built-in OTA signal strength test on the box, I was able to find a sweet spot that was able to pull in Fox 19.1 (29), NBC 5.1 (35), and CBS 9.1 (10) at about a 75-90% signal strength. The problem is that I can only detect about a 20% signal (max) for ABC 12.1 (31). Of course its the channel that covers almost every Bengals game!! :mad:

According to antennaweb.org those channels are all within 6 degrees of one another on compass orientation (12.1 and 9.1 are actually the same @ 206 degrees) and I get all of them except 12.1. How can this be? Does Local12 have a weaker signal that the rest? Does anybody else have this issue? It has me perplexed for sure.

I'm now at a lower elevation here in Monroe along with some large trees within a few blocks, but the other channels (Cincy) come in great. Obviously, I don't get any Dayton channels being that I am pointing the antenna south. My attempt to point it north and go with Dayton channels ended when I had trouble getting anything other than Fox 45 to come in solid.

Just in case there are questions about my connections here is a brief description:

CM 3019 connected to ~30ft. RG6-QS into a standard -3.5 db splitter to another ~20 ft. cable run to the living room and into the HR10-250.

I don't believe there is anything out of the ordinary about my setup that would cause signal issues other than some loss from the splitter. Perhaps this is causing more signal loss than I think?

Perhaps I should be looking at a pre-amp but I'm concerned that the strong signals will get too "hot" while trying to get the weaker 12.1 signal to come in at all. Any suggestions?

One last thing - Does anybody know of a cheaper alternative to the $250 DIGIAIR Pro off air signal meter as seen on solidsignal.com? This would be a great tool but I don't think I can justify the cost. Perhaps somebody around here owns one and is willing to rent it out? :D

Thanks for reading and I appreciate any suggestions.

Dixon,

I just helped my brother in Middletown setup an CM 4221 (I think the 3019 might be the exact same antenna) and we installed a CM 7777 pre-amp before even trying it with about a 50ft run from the attic. I am in WC with the same setup and we get almost the same results. Funny thing is that I am MUCH higher and obviously closer to the towers than him and I do have some issues with 9.1 (10) since it is VHF, he doesn't. If you are worried about too much power then go to Parts Express in Springboro and get some differing attenuators. You can experament instead of dropping $250 on a meter.

By the way, someday maybe I will buy some pants and actually put my antenna outside where it belongs. ;)

Audio problems tonight on WCPO No sound on Greys Anatomy except during the commercials.

WKRC kept switching from SD to HD during Survivor causing the audio to go up and down.

survivor is in hd now?

Survivor is in SD, However; you could tell WKRC was switching from the local upconverted signal to the network upconverted feed as their was a noticeable increase in volume level. The color level of the video changed every time it switched.

Anyone notice that WKRC upconverted signal has a strong right channel, but a very weak left channel. If anyone from WKRC is reading, please look into this. The new switching equipment is installed I assume, seems like WKRC is doing better with switching.

Noticed the audio level problem tonight during survivor. Their upconverted signal also has a different color level than the network feed.

WKRC kept switching from SD to HD during Survivor causing the audio to go up and down.

This was even noticible on WKRC-TV last night (at least through TWC) on regular analog cable.

I have no problem with WKRC switching to the digital feed for analog shows as the colors look better and the sound is good, but on upconverted video and audio from the station, there is low color and the sound is all in the right channel.

I completely agree and would prefer it. It is very distracting when it happens often in the middle of a show.

Great blog-spot with some interesting comments about MNF on ESPN:

http://blog.jackperry.com/pt/blog/default.aspx?id=96&t=Monday-Night-Football-ought-to-be-FREE-i

WCPO-DT audio for the USC game sounds like it's coming out of a PVC pipe. They also dropped to SD some way though the game. WKEF-DT 22 out of Dayton is still showing HD and there is no audio problem.

Sidenote: I did call WLWT about them not showing Today in HD. I got some really nasty young lady who really didn't seem to care about my concern. With an attitute like that it is no wonder that WLWT (and NBC) are so far down in the ratings.


What number did you call?

UPDATE: Just received a response to my email from this morning. "WLWT will begin airing the Today Show in HD tomorrow Thursday, September 14."


Sorry for three posts in a row... But did WLWT keep their promise and show it in HD?

WCPO-DT audio for the USC game sounds like it's coming out of a PVC pipe. They also dropped to SD some way though the game. WKEF-DT 22 out of Dayton is still showing HD and there is no audio problem.

Was watching the ABC feed in a bar (OTA-HD). It looks like it dropped out of HD at the same time the 9 logo (aka bug) appeared on screen. I guess they just have to run that bug.

What number did you call?

I called their listed number (513) 410-5010 and was transfered to some young lady (I don't know what department she was in). Is their a better number to call to get someone at WLWT who actually gives a crap about HD?

I thought others had had better luck calling the engineering department directly. Unfortunately I don't know what that number is.

In other news, WKRC is dropping the ball as usual. NFL Pregame is in SD (crappy-looking SD too!). WHIO out of Dayton has it right, and I'll be watching them for most of the NFL season as not only does WKRC always do this, but they've also got the CW subchannel now.

Today's game (Bengals v. Browns) is not in HD, but you'd think they could figure out how to send the HD portions when available. Ack.

OK that's interesting... WHIO didn't cut from the HD feed to go to the Bengals game!

WHIO is showing the Bengals game on the subchannel

You mean analog 7? They don't have a subchannel, unless they've just added it!

WHIO has switched the HD channel over to the SD Bengals game. It looks and sounds much better than WKRC's SD.

Today's game (Bengals v. Browns) is not in HD, but you'd think they could figure out how to send the HD portions when available. Ack.

I think that the problem is that whoever is responable at WKRC just isn't on the ball. You see the same thing quite frequently on other CBS HD shows. Whenever I see it during non-business hours (after 5PM and on weekends) I always call the newsroom at (513) 763-5422 and ask them to call operations and ask them to switch to the HD feed on WKRC-DT. Most of the time the person on duty is glad to do it but once in a while (especially during Letterman) you get somone that says that is not their job and hangs up on you. A couple of weeks ago they had color bars and feed information about the Letterman show up on the 11 PM news for almost half the program. Just sloppy operations and there is no excuse for it.

This weekend I was searching for the Bengals game... (which wasn't in HD.., thanks CBS!) and ran across 8000's channels on my Dish 922 receiver..., all of them were locals .. I haven't had time to take a closer look though, but I think Dish is rolling out locals in HD. (I'll stick to OTA for a while)

The paper had an article today about WKRC and CinCW. The front page was incorrect in stating that The CW would be in HD, but it included a full page on upgrades at the station and a lineup of all the digital channels in Cincinnati. Even though it is a subchannel, I look forward to watching some of the programming that the station is running.

But....
I have one issue, while I can get the CinCW(12.2) perfectly, I can't decode WKRC-DT (12.1) for reason. This morning when I checked, I received it, then switched to 12.2, then went back and it had a jumbled picture. Since then nothing. If anyone from WKRC is reading the board, please look into this. Also, the control room looks great!

Getting no video also on 12.1 as of around 1:30PM. 12.2 is decoding fine.

current video rates for 12.1 and 12.2 / wkrc 12.1 is getting about 10.5 mbps and 12.2 is getting around 5.9 mbps

The paper had an article today about WKRC and CinCW. The front page was incorrect in stating that The CW would be in HD.
Yes, I read that. Some of the newspaper people (the editors, not John Kieswetter who knows his stuff) likely added the front page stuff about it being in HD.

The only way Cincinnati area viewers will be able to see the CW in HD is by watching the Dayton CW station. Maybe, if we are lucky, one of the satellite companies will pick up a HD feed of the CW. Speaking of satellite, it is interesting what the satellite companies are doing. DirecTV dropped WBQC and put CinCW on channel 38 (even though WKRC has been saying for over a month that it would be on DirecTV channel 25). The channel 38 EPG still has program guide information for WBQC.

DISH Network could not come to an agreement with WRKC on the carriage of CinCW so they are giving Cincinnati area viewers the CW on channel 254 which is the CW from Miami, Florida (WBZL).

According to the CBS web site, http://cbs.sportsline.com/cbssports/schedules/page/nfl this coming Sunday's (9/24) Cincinnati Bengals game at Pittsburgh will be carred in HD and so will the 10/1 New England at Cincinnati game (at 4:15 PM).

Decoding both 12.1 and 12.2 now. I believe they changed the bit rates from this morning as the picture on 12.2 was breaking up earlier, but it is no longer. If they run the CinCW with plenty of bandwidth during non-HD CBS programming, that will be fine, but they really need to give HD some more bandwidth.

Also, on 12.1 upconverted material, there is still too much right channel.

The only way Cincinnati area viewers will be able to see the CW in HD is by watching the Dayton CW station. Maybe, if we are lucky, one of the satellite companies will pick up a HD feed of the CW.

Actually, I saw this weekend that WGN (Chicago) is a CW affiliate. So, won't most of us watching via Dish or TW get the channel that way as well? Does WGN have a HD channel and is anyone outside of Chicago getting it?

// Scott A

Actually, I saw this weekend that WGN (Chicago) is a CW affiliate. So, won't most of us watching via Dish or TW get the channel that way as well?

// Scott A

Scott,

While the OTA feed of WGN (channel 9, Chicago) is a CW affiliate the satellite and cable feeds are not. If you look at the WGN schedule on DISH channel 239 (or DirecTV channel 307) you will see that there are no CW programs.

This weekend I was searching for the Bengals game... (which wasn't in HD.., thanks CBS!) and ran across 8000's channels on my Dish 922 receiver..., all of them were locals .. I haven't had time to take a closer look though, but I think Dish is rolling out locals in HD. (I'll stick to OTA for a while)

I wish that was the case. The local channels have always been in the 8000s (8350-8361) for the older DISH receivers that can't map the channels to their local OTA numbers (like the old DishPlayers, model 7100 and 7200 and models like the 3xxx and 4xxx series). It is likely that the Cincinnati HD locals will not be available from DISH until late this year or sometime next year (and you may need a new dish when they make them available).

The CW has been added to the TWC lineup on 913 this evening.

I wish that was the case. The local channels have always been in the 8000s (8350-8361) for the older DISH receivers that can't map the channels to their local OTA numbers (like the old DishPlayers, model 7100 and 7200). It is likely that the Cincinnati HD locals will not be available from DISH until late this year or sometime nex year (and you may need a new dish when they make them available).

Ahh, ok.., yeah I got my 922 a few month ago but haven't tried watching any locals through Dish... since I have an OTA.

DirecTV dropped WBQC and put CinCW on channel 38 (even though WKRC has been saying for over a month that it would be on DirecTV channel 25). The channel 38 EPG still has program guide information for WBQC.

I noticed this morning that DirecTV did move CinCW to channel 25 but they still have the EPG listings wrong. I guess it will take them a while to get the guide for CinCW.

Comcast Cable in Aurora/Lawrenceburg has dropped WBQC-38 from cable channel 6 and added 12-2 CIN-CW on the digital tear channel 253. The cable channel label is DTCW.

Ron

WCPO-DT audio for the USC game sounds like it's coming out of a PVC pipe. They also dropped to SD some way though the game. WKEF-DT 22 out of Dayton is still showing HD and there is no audio problem.

I have been having the sames sound issues - Sounds very muffled / echoing - I called Time Warner and they came out and swapped out my HD box and I still get the terrible sound. This is the only channel I have noticed the poor sound on.

I have been having the sames sound issues - Sounds very muffled / echoing - I called Time Warner and they came out and swapped out my HD box and I still get the terrible sound. This is the only channel I have noticed the poor sound on.


Not sure if we're talking about the same issue. I haven't watched WCPO since that last post so I can't say if it is an ongoing problem, just something I noticed that night. I will check them again if I remember. I receive WCPO over the air so if we are talking about the same issue, it wouldn't be Time Warner's fault, it would be WCPO's.

I have been having the sames sound issues - Sounds very muffled / echoing - I called Time Warner and they came out and swapped out my HD box and I still get the terrible sound. This is the only channel I have noticed the poor sound on.

I'm not sure that WCPO-DT's 5.1 encoder is configured quite right. If I remember right from last week the center channel was under powered and the surrounds were over powered. So I believe the "surround effect" on vocals are too strong causing the echo and with the center channel being so low it ends up muffled. I will listen closer tonight to see if I can come up with recommendations to WCPO-DT.

I sure hope whenever the Analog switch off happens in Feb. 2009 all of the Stations get their annoying problems Ironed out. Cold Related, hot related, weather related? Seems like the signal is better at certain times? Tiling up? They have alot of Bugs to work out and me too before 2009. Seems like to me signal is better for me when it rains or after it rains. OR around 8am-11am or 10 pm or later at night. Of course the time the signal reaches me they are running on fumes being so far away.

I'm not sure that WCPO-DT's 5.1 encoder is configured quite right. If I remember right from last week the center channel was under powered and the surrounds were over powered. So I believe the "surround effect" on vocals are too strong causing the echo and with the center channel being so low it ends up muffled. I will listen closer tonight to see if I can come up with recommendations to WCPO-DT.



It's an issue with WCPO. I don't notice it on other channels that are broadcasting in 5.1. I do notice that some stations do not broadcast a center channel during commercial breaks WLWT and WCET do not turn off 5.1 during non 5.1 programming like they should.

Sound on NCIS is awfull tonight. Cracks and pops and bad bad levels. I'm about 10 min behind real time, I hope it clears up soon.

the unit is the same way.. wkrc ishaving issues.. whio is fine

Switched over from NOVA on WPTD-DT 16.06 to WCPO-DT 9.1. I also noticed the sound issue, sounds like the voices were coming out of a pipe. It was for Dancing with the Stars. Boston Legal sounds better/normal.

I also noticed problems with WKRC. 12.1 was having video and audio problems. Pops in audio and a vertical shift problem on the video. Now on 12.2, everything looks to be working fine, except last night I planned on watching the Comics Unleashed at Midnight (As it had been advertised all day), but it ended up showing Geraldo At Large(No thanks!).

I'll give WKRC some room to work out the problems and hopefully add 5.1 soon. But WCPO needs to figure out why live audio is messed up, but taped shows are fine.

Last night WKRC was doing an awful job with things. I guess the CW is up and running, and that 12-2 subchannel seemed to be working pretty much OK, however 12-1 which was supposed to be showing HD prime time shows had dropped to SD (the usual absolute crap quality SD we get from WKRC) and the audio, as was said above was popping, plus sounded like it was coming from a phone line (horrible quality). You'd think they'd have tested this out before going live with it. It's pretty bad when 12-2 looks and sounds better than 12-1.

Last night WKRC was doing an awful job with things. I guess the CW is up and running, and that 12-2 subchannel seemed to be working pretty much OK, however 12-1 which was supposed to be showing HD prime time shows had dropped to SD (the usual absolute crap quality SD we get from WKRC) and the audio, as was said above was popping, plus sounded like it was coming from a phone line (horrible quality). You'd think they'd have tested this out before going live with it. It's pretty bad when 12-2 looks and sounds better than 12-1.

Oh, come on. To say, "You'd think they'd have tested this out before going live with it," after Monday night's airing didn't have problems is a bit much.

Has anyone checked out audio from WKEF-DT to compare with WCPO-DT? I didn't get a chance to watch Boston Legal last night to see if the audio problems are indeed limited to live events. It would seem to me if the audio is only weird on live events then it would be a problem on ABC's end.

Last night WKRC was doing an awful job with things.

WKRC has been installing an automatic switching system (to switch from local to the network HD feed) and a piece of equipment failed. They hope to have it fixed by this evening.

The audio issue with WCPO-DT(sounds like some of DSP effects my receiver can do - some of which has to do with the delay between the channels etc. being manipulated to produce various "effects") was also happening Sunday afternoon during Syndicated programming and local news.

Also noticed that when I checked it they were sending a DD 5.1 AC-3 stream during programming which is 2 channel audio only(which one would normally use pro-logic surround encoding for) -- I didn't check the "side" surrounds closely enough to say, but the center+LFE channel were definitely working ---- so it seems they may be processing 2.0 audio sources and converting it to "faux" DD 5.1 ....

During the newly remastered Star Trek Episode ("Balance of Terror") on WCPO-DT Sunday(ran at 5-6pm, ran at 1am Sat night(after SNL) on WDTN-DT), It was interesting to get some nice(well done+not "overdone") LFE effects from the .1 channel. BTW, It's SD, but(for SD) the PQ was very good(IMO) from both WDTN-DT(upconverted to 1080i) and WCPO-DT.

Haven't noticed any problems with WKEF-DT Audio, But haven't watched much ABC HD except for "Men In Trees" last Friday night while WCPO-DT had SD Billy Graham special, and a bit of the HD game on Saturday. Did check it for a few minutes during "dancing with the stars" last night, and audio seemed fine from WKEF-DT.

On WKRC-DT, also noticed they were off air at least for a time late last night as well(I think it was after Letterman, but can't tell you the exact time).

Oh, concerning CW HD -- I haven't seen any CW HD yet on WBDT-DT --- don't think CW has sent anything HD yet, but not sure ..... Did notice that the last episodes from WB of primetime airings of WB shows normally in HD such as "Reba" were also SD from them last week, which was very unusual for them . Hopefully, if they had to make any changes for CW HD vs. WB HD, it won't take them long to get it straightened out ...

Oh, come on. To say, "You'd think they'd have tested this out before going live with it," after Monday night's airing didn't have problems is a bit much.


Sorry, I guess I'm a bit harsh on WKRC. It's just that they always seem to have no concern whatsoever for HD, whether it's forgetting to "flip the switch" from local to HD feeds, not ever passing 5.1 audio, their major issues last night (unwatcheable 12-1 during prime time!), consistent awful looking upconverts (watch the local news or a syndicated show to see what I'm talking about), or choosing not to carry the HD feed that ESPN provides them for Bengals games.

On the other hand, WLWT never has any HD switching problems, passes 5.1 audio (I do see some people complaining that they never turn it off, but I think this is a minor inconvenience, if that), consistent GREAT looking upconverts (newscast is almost HD quality in 4:3, commericals are crisp and also look very good), and they ARE (at least as of right now) planning to carry the HD feed from the Thursday Night Bengals game that NFL Network will provide.

After reading what I just wrote, it seems like it might be taken sarcastically. But really, I was just trying to justify why I might be so hard on WKRC sometimes. I know they're not evil people trying to steal our HDTV, but when you compare them to another local station, it starts to get frustrating as a viewer.

The audio issue with WCPO-DT(sounds like some of DSP effects my receiver can do - some of which has to do with the delay between the channels etc. being manipulated to produce various "effects") was also happening Sunday afternoon during Syndicated programming and local news.

Also noticed that when I checked it they were sending a DD 5.1 AC-3 stream during programming which is 2 channel audio only(which one would normally use pro-logic surround encoding for) -- I didn't check the "side" surrounds closely enough to say, but the center+LFE channel were definitely working ---- so it seems they may be processing 2.0 audio sources and converting it to "faux" DD 5.1 ....Yeah, that's exactly right, as per this post that's what they're doing:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8270905#post8270905

Personally I prefer that than WLWT-DT's method of sending a 5.1 matrix but only using 2 channels, since that stops my receiver from processing Dolby Surround encoding. The 'ideal' solution would be to turn the 5.1 matrix on / off depending on the content, but this is apparently more complex than it sounds...

I guess the problems we're hearing at the moment are due to some settings on the encoder that produces this 'upconverted' or 'faux' DD. I'm sure this will settle down soon, and anyway I'm just happy we have proper 5.1 for ABC HD!

Oh, concerning CW HD -- I haven't seen any CW HD yet on WBDT-DT --- don't think CW has sent anything HD yet, but not sure ........

Just to update this - some good news, Smallville is up in HD tonight from WBDT-DT Dayton ... DD 2.0 audio though currently(they had DD 5.1 for WB HD) ....

Of course, the SD version on WKRC-DT 12.2 is quite "blurry" in comparision ;)

Just to update this - some good news, Smallville is up in HD tonight from WBDT-DT Dayton ... DD 2.0 audio though currently(they had DD 5.1 for WB HD) ....

Of course, the SD version on WKRC-DT 12.2 is quite "blurry" in comparision ;)


I'm too far south to receive WBDT-DT since WLEX18 is overpowering their signal :(

WKRC-DT should downconvert CBS from 1080I to 720P? WKYT in Lexington does this and are running CW on 27-2. At least the video quality would be slightly clearer and perhaps they could run 12-2 in 480P.

Yeah! WKRC once again has its HD up and running tonight. It was horrible 2 nights ago. Now if their newscast would look as good. I don't understand why WLWT and WCPO have a clearer sharper digital image than WKRC. WKRC always looks like grainy film.

Yeah! WKRC once again has its HD up and running tonight. It was horrible 2 nights ago. Now if their newscast would look as good. I don't understand why WLWT and WCPO have a clearer sharper digital image than WKRC. WKRC always looks like grainy film.

Yes, their upcoverts are always horrible looking.

It did look like their automatic switching was functioning properly last night during the brief period I flipped to channel 12.

As for the PQ on 12-1, I think it is acceptable, and I wouldn't want to see that converted to 720p. However, high motion sports might be a different story. We'll find out Sunday for the Bengals game. WHIO 7 is only a remote control press away.

and whio gives it full bandwidth.. the last few nights wkrc has only been giving 10-14 mbps to 12.1 and 12.2 has been around 5 to 7 - right now they are giving an sd program on 12.1 - 13-14 mbps and 12.2 3 mbps

It did look like their automatic switching was functioning properly last night during the brief period I flipped to channel 12.

WKRC-DT's new equipment apparently still has a few bugs. During the Late Show (Letterman), it was switching a second or two late and during the last part of the show it didn't switch to HD at all. I haven't got a chance to watch Shark yet (recorded on my HD DVR) to see if they had any problems during that show.

I have a MyHD 130 card in my PC, and am located in Liberty Township, where we have Adelphia (I guess Time Warner now). I get OTA signals just fine, and the cable input of the card works for analog cable channels, so I know the card is okay. However, when I use the cable input to scan for QAM channels, it finds a bunch between 80-125 or so, all of which show strong signal and a resolution number, but no picture. I know most of those are the encrypted digital signals, but shouldn't the locals be there?

Can anyone confirm whether TW/Adelphia has QAM in this area?

Thanks!

Yes, their upcoverts are always horrible looking.

It did look like their automatic switching was functioning properly last night during the brief period I flipped to channel 12.

As for the PQ on 12-1, I think it is acceptable, and I wouldn't want to see that converted to 720p. However, high motion sports might be a different story. We'll find out Sunday for the Bengals game. WHIO 7 is only a remote control press away.

I am new to the lingo. What is meant by an upcoverts? What is PQ on 12-1? For me WHIO is no option. I am wired to Time-Warner. Yes the Bengals should be on WKRC in HD and Saturday OSU in HD on WCPO.

upconvert is where the local station takes their sd signal and sends it out (in wkrc's case) as 1080i

upconvert is where the local station takes their sd signal and sends it out (in wkrc's case) as 1080i

So when I view a local news cast on Warner 905, 909, or 912 (all digital HD channels) I know they are not HD since these stations don't produce local shows in HD. However, are they any better than SD? ie. Are they at least digital quality? I think there is a layer of definition inbetween SD and HD.

All three channels picture quality seem to differ.

So when I view a local news cast on Warner 905, 909, or 912 (all digital HD channels) I know they are not HD since these stations don't produce local shows in HD. However, are they any better than SD? ie. Are they at least digital quality? I think there is a layer of definition inbetween SD and HD.

All three channels picture quality seem to differ.

When you view a local newscast or any non-HD content on those digital channels, you are getting the standard definition (SD) video that has been converted to fit the higher quality HD transmission. The SD video originates as 480i (480 lines of interlaced resolution), and then it is upconverted to 1080i (1,080 interlaced lines of resolution) or 720p (720 progressive lines of resolution), depending on what resolution the channel broadcasts. WLWT, WKRC (5 and 12) are 1080i and WCPO and WXIX (9 and 19) are 720p. The upconversion is taking a lower resolution picture and sort of "blowing it up" to fit the much higher resolution of HD. There are different techniques for doing this, and as you can see by the differing quality of the digital channels when they aren't showing true HD content, all stations don't do it the same way.

Around here, channel 5 (WLWT) does it the best, and that is why their newscast on 905 or 5-1 over the air looks so good. channel 9 (WCPO) also does a fairly good job. WXIX doesn't do that great of a job, and WKRC does the worst job of the four.

As for a "layer between SD and HD," this is sort of true. Because the stations broadcast a high resolution (1080i or 720p) on their digital channels, even SD content can look better on the digital channels, because although the source video isn't HD, it does take a completely digital path to your screen, and because of well designed upconversion processes, it can look much better than what you'd see on the analog channels. However, I think you will agree that analog channel 12 looks better than digital 12 (912 on Time Warner) when they are not showing HD content. This is because of the poor job they do with upconverting. WLWT on the other hand, does a phenomenal job with upconverting, and that is why digital 5-1 (905 on Time Warner) almost always looks better than analog 5.

I am new to the lingo. What is meant by an upcoverts? What is PQ on 12-1? For me WHIO is no option. I am wired to Time-Warner. Yes the Bengals should be on WKRC in HD and Saturday OSU in HD on WCPO.


By PQ on 12-1 I meant picture quality on 12-1, WKRC's digital channel (which apparently is 912 for you on Time Warner). Those of us who get HD channels over the air see it as 12-1, and the CW network is on 12-2, WKRC's "subchannel".

We'll have to wait and see, but because channel 12 is broadcasting 2 digital channels (12-1 and 12-2), there is less "room" for the HD video on 12-1. This will most likely result in pixelation or "macro blocking" which is hard to describe but you will see digital artifacts on the screen (generally small square-ish "defects")

Channel 7-1 (WHIO out of dayton) does not broadcast a second digital channel, and so all of their "room" on the transmission is dedicated to the HD picture. For this reason, it is almost certain that WHIO 7-1 will look better than WKRC 12-1 this Sunday for the Bengals game.

Lucky for most of us, Channel 7-1 is fairly easy to receive in the Cincinnati area, even with an indoor antenna if placed properly.

Excellent explanation Jim.

I know you don't have TWC but they say that all of our stations we now receive with their digital box are now digital. So with that in mind, is there a difference between channel 5 and 905 when showing something SD like the 11 o'clock news?

Channel 912 (or 12.1 OTA) is 480i upconverted to 1080i, but what about 913 (12.2). Is that upconverted too?

Hello all,

Been awhile since I posted in this thread.

The new house is nearing completion. I only have one big hurdle left to overcome and that is getting my Antenna for OTA on the roof or in the attic, and getting DirecTV setup.

I am a current DirecTV subscriber, but don't really want to have DirecTV send some installer out to install a dish. I am mainly afraid of the job they will do putting the dish on a brand new house.

I have tried talking to a couple different installers (one recommended by the company doing the phone and security system in the house), the other was mentioned on here (TNT Pictures).

The installer recommended by the phone/security system seems unwilling to even quote the job, and they have mentioned they don't even think the dish will work in my location. The guy I talked to didn't seem too "dialed in" on much. He told me that the OTA wouldn't work unless I had a "clear shot" to Cincinnati. At first I thought he was talking about the DirecTV dish, but he was referring to the OTA antenna. So even if they would have gotten back to me, I wouldn't have gone with them since they seemed clueless.

TNT pictures first wanted me to switch to Dish Network (which they sell obviously). The person there talked about the Dish DVR's being better than the DirecTV TiVos (I have 2 SD DirecTV TiVo's and 1 HD DirecTV TiVo). I really love my TiVo's though, and I would probably switch to Series 3 TiVo's and Time Warner if I couldn't use DirecTV. He talked about the cost benefits to Dish, but when I got pricing from him it was over $100 a month to get something comparable to the $60 or so I spend now for DirecTV with 3 TiVo DVR's. (I got the DirecTV TiVo lifetime when it was first available so I only pay the mirror fee).

Anyway, I really want to keep DirecTV. Sadly I pitched my extra dish from years back. I was going to use that to see if I can get a signal from the new house, where I want the dish located. If I can't get a signal, I will be going with Time Warner. There is a tree line that might effect DirecTV, but it is much further away than the tree line I have here. I really think I should be able to get a clean lock on the satellites.

I am going to try to find an old DirecTV dish on ebay for quick testing. I have an old receiver that I can use to do a signal test with.

So here are my questions maybe some of you can answer.

1) Are the new satellites that the new DirecTV dish picks up (for the mpeg4 stuff being released) lower in the sky than the others? The first installer told me that is why he thought DirecTV would be a problem with my location. If they are I might just get the older Dish antenna previous to this latest mpeg4 capable one. I don't plan on using the mpeg4 stuff, but would go with the newer dish if it isn't a problem.

2) Any recommendations on DirecTV installers? I can do the OTA antenna myself and will probably just put it in the attic. I have lines already run up there (RG6) that I can connect. I thought maybe someone had a DirecTV install where they came out and did a professional job, and might still have their info.

3) If I put an OTA antenna in the attic and use a pre-amp at the antenna, can I power it from the basement where the RG6 ends up? Or do I need the power source in the attic? I had them run the RG6 up there, but didn't think about power.

So any advice or help would be most appreciated. Looking to move into the house in a month or so, and hope to get this all straightened out.

^ hillsoft, PM sent.

3) If you use a pre-amp, most times they come in two parts, the amp and a power supply. So the amp is connected directly to the antenna, then down the line, the power supply is installed. I have my antennas in the attic and use and pre-amp, works great.

I know you don't have TWC but they say that all of our stations we now receive with their digital box are now digital. So with that in mind, is there a difference between channel 5 and 905 when showing something SD like the 11 o'clock news?
Well, you're either viewing the digital 480i picture or the 1080i picture. Hard to say which would be better in this situation since they're both converting a signal most likely from an analog source.

Channel 912 (or 12.1 OTA) is 480i upconverted to 1080i, but what about 913 (12.2). Is that upconverted too?

12.2 isn't upconverted since it isn't an HD broadcast. CinCW is an SD only broadcast and TWC placed it in the digital tier placing it right next to the main program channel 912 (12.1).

Well, you're either viewing the digital 480i picture or the 1080i picture. Hard to say which would be better in this situation since they're both converting a signal most likely from an analog source.



12.2 isn't upconverted since it isn't an HD broadcast. CinCW is an SD only broadcast and TWC placed it in the digital tier placing it right next to the main program channel 912 (12.1).

Thanks for the answer. I guess 913 and 5 are both 480i since neither is HD. It just seems that 913 is a little clearer than 2 (between 8pm-11pm), but maybe it's just me. Your answer clears up why 905 looks better generally than 5.

I guess nobody broadcasts in 480p? So 480p is pretty much strictly for DVDs?

JunkyardDogg,

What kind of antenna/preamp do you have in your attic?

Are you getting all the Cincy locals (or Dayton) UHF/VHF with it?



^ hillsoft, PM sent.

3) If you use a pre-amp, most times they come in two parts, the amp and a power supply. So the amp is connected directly to the antenna, then down the line, the power supply is installed. I have my antennas in the attic and use and pre-amp, works great.

Sorry, I guess I'm a bit harsh on WKRC. It's just that they always seem to have no concern whatsoever for HD, whether it's forgetting to "flip the switch" from local to HD feeds, not ever passing 5.1 audio, their major issues last night (unwatcheable 12-1 during prime time!), consistent awful looking upconverts (watch the local news or a syndicated show to see what I'm talking about), or choosing not to carry the HD feed that ESPN provides them for Bengals games.

On the other hand, WLWT never has any HD switching problems, passes 5.1 audio (I do see some people complaining that they never turn it off, but I think this is a minor inconvenience, if that), consistent GREAT looking upconverts (newscast is almost HD quality in 4:3, commericals are crisp and also look very good), and they ARE (at least as of right now) planning to carry the HD feed from the Thursday Night Bengals game that NFL Network will provide.

After reading what I just wrote, it seems like it might be taken sarcastically. But really, I was just trying to justify why I might be so hard on WKRC sometimes. I know they're not evil people trying to steal our HDTV, but when you compare them to another local station, it starts to get frustrating as a viewer.

You have to remember a few things.

WKRC is under going changes to install a new automation system. This is a HUGE undertaking and is affecting many of the things in the HD/SD/DTV area. CW is up and running on 12.2. 12.2 is what is feeding the local cable companies as well as directTV. You must realize that with new systems will come new problems. WKRC is working to resolve them as quickly and efficiently as possible.

The most important to me... I am a Viewer as well. I like my shows to look good and sound good too. Trust me we are all professionals and take great pride in our work and the quality of the output to the viewers.

The automation will help improve the missing of the HD switch as well as many other items.

WKRC doesn't pass 5.1 Audio because the equipment is not currently at this site. I don't have a time frame for the equipment.

Just because ESPN is providing us a HD game and we don't feed it in HD doesn't mean "we didn't want to" There is more to just plugging it in. We are working on this for the future games.

All the local stations as well as many others around the country had/have problems from time to time. They work to fix them quickly. Extra/spare/backup equipment isn't always practical when some of the equipment is very costly. So the viewer gets Upconvert while the problem is worked on.

When problems are happening remember there are alot of people working to resolve them.

Have a nice day/nite.

Weasel

This year, Channel 12 (WKRC) is simulcasting the ESPN games.

Channel 5 (WLWT) won the bidding for the NFL Network Thursday night game to which I am referring.

When Channel 12 carries the ESPN feed, they do not carry the HD feed. I was told that this was because they don't want to convert the ESPN 720p stream to fit their 1080i broadcasts.

I have been told that Channel 5 (WLWT) is planning to carry the HD feed from NFL Network. This is dependent on them acquiring the correct equipment, but they ARE planning to do this as of right now. This is great news as most of us around here do not get NFL Network.

WKRC is also planning on getting the equipment to carry the ESPN games in HD. It is not because of desire or lack thereof to convert from 720p to 1080i. This equipment is very expensive and justification for a few games in HD is difficult. There are alot of things to consider when converting from 720p to 1080i. this isn't a simple plug and play type of change.

Weasel

Hey everyone,

I am a new member here so please bare with me. I recently bought a 37" LCD with a built in tuner. As of right now I dont have Hd through Dish Network (although I will in a month or so) but I was going to use the tv with my computer and xbox 360. Since the bengals game is on tomorrow/today I found a buddy that has an HDTV antenna thats hes not using. Its a big RCA one (like 3 feet long and fold up, not sure of the model) and I just have it sitting the the corner of my room straight up and down. I am picking up a lot of the main channels ok besides fox. I live in delhi, by the river and downtown cincy. I have a few questions though...

I want to go buy an HDTV antenna because dish network doesnt carry local hd signals here as far as I know. I would like something indoor and prefer something smaller. i also dont want to spend to much and would like to pick it up locally if at all possible. Any tips on what antenna or where to go to get it?

Also, while browsing through the channels I notices some are called for example WKRC-DT or
WLWT-HD

I know what the hd means but what does the dt mean? does that mean its not being broadcasted in hd at that moment?

One more thing, are some shows broadcasted in 1080i and other in 720p or is it that some stations broadcast only in 1080i and other in 720p? Thanks for any help here. Sorry for being a newbie haha

Chad

Hello all,

Been awhile since I posted in this thread.

The new house is nearing completion. I only have one big hurdle left to overcome and that is getting my Antenna for OTA on the roof or in the attic, and getting DirecTV setup.

I am a current DirecTV subscriber, but don't really want to have DirecTV send some installer out to install a dish. I am mainly afraid of the job they will do putting the dish on a brand new house.

I have tried talking to a couple different installers (one recommended by the company doing the phone and security system in the house), the other was mentioned on here (TNT Pictures).

The installer recommended by the phone/security system seems unwilling to even quote the job, and they have mentioned they don't even think the dish will work in my location. The guy I talked to didn't seem too "dialed in" on much. He told me that the OTA wouldn't work unless I had a "clear shot" to Cincinnati. At first I thought he was talking about the DirecTV dish, but he was referring to the OTA antenna. So even if they would have gotten back to me, I wouldn't have gone with them since they seemed clueless.

TNT pictures first wanted me to switch to Dish Network (which they sell obviously). The person there talked about the Dish DVR's being better than the DirecTV TiVos (I have 2 SD DirecTV TiVo's and 1 HD DirecTV TiVo). I really love my TiVo's though, and I would probably switch to Series 3 TiVo's and Time Warner if I couldn't use DirecTV. He talked about the cost benefits to Dish, but when I got pricing from him it was over $100 a month to get something comparable to the $60 or so I spend now for DirecTV with 3 TiVo DVR's. (I got the DirecTV TiVo lifetime when it was first available so I only pay the mirror fee).

Anyway, I really want to keep DirecTV. Sadly I pitched my extra dish from years back. I was going to use that to see if I can get a signal from the new house, where I want the dish located. If I can't get a signal, I will be going with Time Warner. There is a tree line that might effect DirecTV, but it is much further away than the tree line I have here. I really think I should be able to get a clean lock on the satellites.

I am going to try to find an old DirecTV dish on ebay for quick testing. I have an old receiver that I can use to do a signal test with.

So here are my questions maybe some of you can answer.

1) Are the new satellites that the new DirecTV dish picks up (for the mpeg4 stuff being released) lower in the sky than the others? The first installer told me that is why he thought DirecTV would be a problem with my location. If they are I might just get the older Dish antenna previous to this latest mpeg4 capable one. I don't plan on using the mpeg4 stuff, but would go with the newer dish if it isn't a problem.

2) Any recommendations on DirecTV installers? I can do the OTA antenna myself and will probably just put it in the attic. I have lines already run up there (RG6) that I can connect. I thought maybe someone had a DirecTV install where they came out and did a professional job, and might still have their info.

3) If I put an OTA antenna in the attic and use a pre-amp at the antenna, can I power it from the basement where the RG6 ends up? Or do I need the power source in the attic? I had them run the RG6 up there, but didn't think about power.

So any advice or help would be most appreciated. Looking to move into the house in a month or so, and hope to get this all straightened out.
I had Bluegrass install my newer dish. It is more oval but as far as I can tell is basically pointed in the same direction It has multple pickups ( I know this is not the technical name) but I think the angles are about the same. BTW Bluegrass did a good job. They put an antenna right on top of the dish which works pretty well. I think the Tivo receiver powers the antenna.

Also, while browsing through the channels I notices some are called for example WKRC-DT or
WLWT-HD

I know what the hd means but what does the dt mean?


The "DT" stands for "digital television" and is the callsign designation which is used for full service digital television stations. Low power digital stations(we don't have any on air yet In cincinnati, but hopefully soon) will have callsigns such as "xxxx-LD" for Low power digital, or xxxx-CD" for Class A digital station.

We use "DT" to easily acknowledge that we are referring to the digital station rather than the analog station, especially as referring to the channel numbers can also sometimes be confusing - For instance, WKRC-DT currently actually transmits on UHF channel 31, but remaps on most recievers to virtual "channel" 12.1(CBS HD/Local 12) -- and 12.2 -- CW/CINCW), whearas their analog station transmits on VHF channel 12.

Once the analog station's go off air, suppose we can just go back to the 4 (or 5 letter for LP translators) letter callsigns ;)

WKRC (or WKRC-TV would be the most "offical" version) would indicate the analog station, and WKRC-DT would indicate the digital station.

Digital stations can transmit a variety of HD or SD(standard definition) formats, and digital stations can also multicast several different SD programs("datastreams") on the same "channel" -- You tune to these by 12.1, 12.2/etc .....

The "WLWT-HD" label beint sent by WLWT-DT 35 on 5.1 is just a designation the station sends via something called "PSIP" (basically - PSIP is electronic program guide info/virtual channel remapping info which is sent OTA via the transport stream). For instance, WLWT-DT also multicasts/transmits and sends "weatherPlus" SD channel on PSIP remapped channel 5.2, which I think they have labeled as WLWT-WX or some such thing ... Note - If you can turn off PSIP on your receiver(most receiver's can't do that), you'd see/tune the MPEG2 streams from WLWT-DT on 35.3/35.4 (or 35.1/35.2).


does that mean its not being broadcasted in hd at that moment?


Nope. "WLWT-HD" is labeled that way all the time, and does send HD when available == but, when HD isn't available, they upconvert(at the station) SD programming to 1080i - It remains(thankfully) 4x3, but sent with "black bars" at the sides to "fill out" the 16x9 1080i frame. SD Upconverts are NOT HD, even though the station is sending a "HD" format. The source material HAS to be native HD(either from HD video or HD transfer from film) for you to actually be able to SEE HD ... As for the programming itself, "WLWT-HD" (or 5.1 "virtual channel") is a "simulcast" of the programming airing on analog WLWT 5 ....

Update : Oh - To find out which programs are in HD, the best source of info is the HD programming area at AVSforum. TitanTV is also an online guide which has HD listings for digital stations, and the local PBS stations have HD listings on their website(see first post of this thread for links to the local stations, as well as more station info).


One more thing, are some shows broadcasted in 1080i and other in 720p or is it that some stations broadcast only in 1080i and other in 720p?

Well, both, but it's due to mostly the latter - Here's how it's sent from the network :

NBC HD = 1080i
ABC HD = 720p
CBS HD = 1080i
Fox HD = 720p
PBS HD = 1080i
CW HD = 1080i
MyNetworkTV = 720p

Here is how Cincinnati stations broadcast(note - usually stations send what the networks send, but some transcode to other resolutions) :

WLWT-DT (5.1) - 1080i (NBC HD)
WCPO-DT (9.1) - 720p (ABC HD)
WKRC-DT (12.1) - 1080i (CBS HD)
WPTO-DT (14.6 - when active 8~10pm - 1080i - ThinkTV/Time shifted PBS HD
WXIX-DT (19.1) - 720p (Fox HD)
WCET-DT (48.1) - 1080i HD (PBS HD channel) - Note - WCET does NOT do a digital simulcast of their analog station currently.

WCVN-DT (54.4 - 8pm~12am) - 720p - PBS HD time shifted - Note this is the one station in Cincinnati that transcodes from 1080i(what PBS sends) to something else(720p). As recently mentioned, the CBS affiliate in Lexington, KY sends 720p, even though CBS HD sends 1080i. This is because they are also multicasting, and 720p is a bit more multicast friendly than 1080i.

WSTR-DT (64.1) - 720p - MyNetworkTV.

--------------------------------------------------------



Thanks for any help here.


That's what we're here for :) --- Sorry some of this stuff can be so confusing, at times!

The "DT" stands for "digital television" and is the callsign designation which is used for full service digital television stations. Low power digital stations(we don't have any on air yet In cincinnati, but hopefully soon) will have callsigns such as "xxxx-LD" for Low power digital, or xxxx-CD" for Class A digital station.

We use "DT" to easily acknowledge that we are referring to the digital station rather than the analog station, especially as referring to the channel numbers can also sometimes be confusing - For instance, WKRC-DT currently actually transmits on UHF channel 31, but remaps on most recievers to virtual "channel" 12.1(CBS HD/Local 12) -- and 12.2 -- CW/CINCW), whearas their analog station transmits on VHF channel 12.

Once the analog station's go off air, suppose we can just go back to the 4 (or 5 letter for LP translators) letter callsigns ;)

WKRC (or WKRC-TV would be the most "offical" version) would indicate the analog station, and WKRC-DT would indicate the digital station.

Digital stations can transmit a variety of HD or SD(standard definition) formats, and digital stations can also multicast several different SD programs("datastreams") on the same "channel" -- You tune to these by 12.1, 12.2/etc .....

The "WLWT-HD" label beint sent by WLWT-DT 35 on 5.1 is just a designation the station sends via something called "PSIP" (basically - PSIP is electronic program guide info/virtual channel remapping info which is sent OTA via the transport stream). For instance, WLWT-DT also multicasts/transmits and sends "weatherPlus" SD channel on PSIP remapped channel 5.2, which I think they have labeled as WLWT-WX or some such thing ... Note - If you can turn off PSIP on your receiver(most receiver's can't do that), you'd see/tune the MPEG2 streams from WLWT-DT on 35.3/35.4 (or 35.1/35.2).



Nope. "WLWT-HD" is labeled that way all the time, and does send HD when available == but, when HD isn't available, they upconvert(at the station) SD programming to 1080i - It remains(thankfully) 4x3, but sent with "black bars" at the sides to "fill out" the 16x9 1080i frame. SD Upconverts are NOT HD, even though the station is sending a "HD" format. The source material HAS to be native HD(either from HD video or HD transfer from film) for you to actually be able to SEE HD ... As for the programming itself, "WLWT-HD" (or 5.1 "virtual channel") is a "simulcast" of the programming airing on analog WLWT 5 ....

Update : Oh - To find out which programs are in HD, the best source of info is the HD programming area at AVSforum. TitanTV is also an online guide which has HD listings for digital stations, and the local PBS stations have HD listings on their website(see first post of this thread for links to the local stations, as well as more station info).



Well, both, but it's due to mostly the latter - Here's how it's sent from the network :

NBC HD = 1080i
ABC HD = 720p
CBS HD = 1080i
Fox HD = 720p
PBS HD = 1080i
CW HD = 1080i
MyNetworkTV = 720p

Here is how Cincinnati stations broadcast(note - usually stations send what the networks send, but some transcode to other resolutions) :

WLWT-DT (5.1) - 1080i (NBC HD)
WCPO-DT (9.1) - 720p (ABC HD)
WKRC-DT (12.1) - 1080i (CBS HD)
WPTO-DT (14.6 - when active 8~10pm - 1080i - ThinkTV/Time shifted PBS HD
WXIX-DT (19.1) - 720p (Fox HD)
WCET-DT (48.1) - 1080i HD (PBS HD channel) - Note - WCET does NOT do a digital simulcast of their analog station currently.

WCVN-DT (54.4 - 8pm~12am) - 720p - PBS HD time shifted - Note this is the one station in Cincinnati that transcodes from 1080i(what PBS sends) to something else(720p). As recently mentioned, the CBS affiliate in Lexington, KY sends 720p, even though CBS HD sends 1080i. This is because they are also multicasting, and 720p is a bit more multicast friendly than 1080i.

WSTR-DT (64.1) - 720p - MyNetworkTV.

--------------------------------------------------------




That's what we're here for :) --- Sorry some of this stuff can be so confusing, at times!


Wow, Thanks a lot for all the help there! That was a lot of info. What kind of antenna should I get? I cant moutn an antenna outside and my tv is in part of a basement thats about 6 feet underground. I could get a little indoor antenna and have it in my tv room, but it would have to be small and not stretch out a lot. Now I could also get a bigger indoor antenna or even one of those big out door antennas and put it in the deep part of my basement which is about 10 feet under ground. i dont have a lot of money though and dont know what would be the best option. My towers are about 5 miles from my house. Right now I have a little indoor antenna with the dipoles all the way stretched out and its in the deepest part of my basement. I get the digital channels 9.1, 12.1, 19.1 and 64.1 perfect. As far as 5.1 and 48.1 go, i can either get one or the other great or both of them with a little signal loss. I receive the same results in the 5 foot part of my basement so I dont think it matter if I put the antenna in the deeper part. When I put it there there is plenty of room for it and no one can see it : )

What would you suggest here Nitewatchman

Sorry about any spelling here, I am tierd as hell and need to go to bed haha, I have been messing with that antenna all night. Its a $40 one from CC and have a little square dish with 2 dipoles. I also have one of those big long RCA antennas. Both of these are amplified and preform about the same.

Thanks again Nite...

Chad

I want to go buy an HDTV antenna because dish network doesnt carry local hd signals here as far as I know. I would like something indoor and prefer something smaller. i also dont want to spend to much and would like to pick it up locally if at all possible. Any tips on what antenna or where to go to get it?

I wouldn't call this a recommendation but here is what I did just this weekend. I have the Dish HD package and couldn't wait for the local channels in HD. I bought a Terk HD "rabbit ears" from CC for about $35. I ran the cable from the antenna directly into the HD receiver (Vip211) so I didn't have to switch TV inputs and Dish and OTA channels appeared on my Channel Guide. It took a while to find the best location for the antenna to get as many locals as possible (on top of the TV is NOT a good place).

Since this was for my basement home theatre, I eventually put the antenna above the suspended ceiling and ran the coax to the Dish receiver. It worked great! I live in Mason so I get all Dayton and most of the Cincinnati locals in HD (can't get WCPO-DT). Sunday, I could watch the Bengals on OTA HD (WKRC-HD) then flip to TNT-HD from the Dish on commercials to watch the NASCAR race without changing inputs. Also, I was able to hear DD5.1 (when available) from the OTA channels.

I'm a happy camper (for now) and my wife just shrugs her shoulders and says "Looks good, sounds good".

Good luck.

// Scott A

Yeah thats kind of what I am doing right now. I have a cheap $40 antenna that has the rabbit ears. I still have distortion on a lot of my channels though and thats why I am trying to get soething that works better

What would you suggest here Nitewatchman


If at all possible Don't put the antenna in the basement. Not only do signals not get underground very well, they also do not penetrate very well through concrete.

Get some extra feedline+find a way to move your current antenna to a higher spot, as worked for ScottA. Oftentimes, near a window(such as on first floor) facing the towers turns out to be a good spot but you may be able to find a good spot for it in many locations(behind a couch, in the closet/on a shelf/etc) - Finding a "sweet spot" for reception to place the antenna is often the most important/best thing you can do.

As a general rule(and yes there can be exceptions as many factors can effect reception), *any* antenna placed above ground is going to work better than the best of antennas in Your basement, and any antenna placed outdoors "on the roof" is going to work better than the best of antennas indoors or in the attic ....

Question and a Couple of current thoughts:

First - Anyone heard anything concerning if/when Either WCPO-DT/WDTN-DT or WHIO-DT is planning on getting it worked out so they can send "Wheel of Fortune" and "Jeopardy" in HD?

I did hear a report that Grey stations WTHR-DT In Indy, and WBNS-DT In Columbus(which I do receive sometimes, but haven't had a chance to check them for Jeopardy/wheel in HD yet) began sending those in HD pretty much right off the bat a couple weeks ago ....

Thoughts on WKRC-DT and WSTR-DT cuurent upconverts ....


WKRC-DT

I might be just seeing things, but at 5pm 9/25, currently it appears to me WKRC-DT upconverts have improved considerably. especially noticable in the Local12 Graphics and text. The studio shots today during local news also look quite good, and it appears to me colirmetry may have also improved(although some of the studio shots *may* appear to be pushing red a bit) - More difficult to say, but I may be noticing some sort of PQ improvement on the analog station as well.

In any case, certianly appears to be quite an improvement to me, perhaps to the point(or almost so) of looking more like component video(as in most cases it really should be the case via a DTV station) than composite ...

However(on digital 12.1 only), OTOH, I'm also noticing quite noticable MPEG2 compression artifacts at times during fast fades+wipes and quick moving graphics ....

--------------------------------

WSTR-DT

Have noticed the past week+ or so -- WSTR-DT has been changing their "black bars" on the sides of 4x3 programming(during upcoverted material) to Grey -- AND, it also appears they have the 4x3 programming formatted so that their equipment is adding absolutely NO "shutters" to the black bars on the side in order to in a sense, provide a sort of "overscanning effect" for stuff which would normally be hidden behind the bezel(on the sides) of a 4x3 TV ... Hope that makes sense, strange as it might sound, I can't seem to come up with the right words to describe that ...

Personally, I like it for 4x3 upconverted material, as long as they aren't distorting the Aspect ratio with some sort of non-linear stretch -- from what I can tell it doesn't *look* like they are doing that, but it's hard to say for sure without a good test pattern with lots of circles+cross hatch pattern/etc. to check the geometry ......

Also, While for some reason I think the upconverts looked a little better when WSTR-DT was sending 1080i (hard to describe, but they look a little more "pasty", "flat" and "TV Like" - as if the gamma is a bit different, and perhaps it's a bit softer as well ... Don't think the latter is on my end, as even though my display is displaying 1080i, I don't see that with WCPO-DT's upconverts or 720P HD, Including from WSTR-DT/My network TV) ... In any case it appears to me they have been working to make it better, as the PQ of the upconverts I think has improved the past couple of weeks .... If they'd only put something on there I'd want to watch, LOL .....

If at all possible Don't put the antenna in the basement. Not only do signals not get underground very well, they also do not penetrate very well through concrete.

Get some extra feedline+find a way to move your current antenna to a higher spot, as worked for ScottA. Oftentimes, near a window(such as on first floor) facing the towers turns out to be a good spot but you may be able to find a good spot for it in many locations(behind a couch, in the closet/on a shelf/etc) - Finding a "sweet spot" for reception to place the antenna is often the most important/best thing you can do.

As a general rule(and yes there can be exceptions as many factors can effect reception), *any* antenna placed above ground is going to work better than the best of antennas in Your basement, and any antenna placed outdoors "on the roof" is going to work better than the best of antennas indoors or in the attic ....


I'll second that. I just replaced my 6' long UHF only antenna in the attic with a 12-14" long antenna that you can barely see on the roof. The little one on the roof does just as well as the big one did not 2 feet below it inside the shingles.

Hi again,
Just finished talking to D* & they're gonna bring out the new HR20 (HD DVR box) & install a a 5, yes 5, LNB dish (all for less than $100)! They say we're getting locals in HD this fall...I know don't hold my breath, right? ! :-)
My question(s) is does anyone know anything about this? -a date certain?
-will the PQ be the same as my OTA that I have now on my hr10?
-Will some of these DD audio issues be resolved?
I'm pretty pumped on this new box's capabilities & finally that locals will be on D*!!

Hi again,
Just finished talking to D* & they're gonna bring out the new HR20 (HD DVR box) & install a a 5, yes 5, LNB dish (all for less than $100)! They say we're getting locals in HD this fall...I know don't hold my breath, right? ! :-)
My question(s) is does anyone know anything about this? -a date certain?
-will the PQ be the same as my OTA that I have now on my hr10?
-Will some of these DD audio issues be resolved?
I'm pretty pumped on this new box's capabilities & finally that locals will be on D*!!

The plan is for locals this fall at some point, but if they don't get enough contracts with local stations they'll pass us by (see Grand Rapids, MI).

The PQ will be different since D* will be compressing the OTA signal further using MPEG4. The may also be reducing the resolution (but I haven't heard that for sure with the MPEG4 stations.

What DD audio issues are you having?

the latest from directv is september of this year.. so 5 days left.. they typically light them up and the very end of the month.. however, I would not be suprised if this went into october-- that being said, like terry said - the ota feed will always give you a better picture

The other thing that satellite subscribers need to know is that the satellite vendors will only be carrying "the big four" (ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX) in their local HD packages. There has been talk that they will be carrying a national HD feed of the CW but, so far, that is pure rumor.

ALL of the HD satellite receivers have at least one ATSC tuner for OTA digital locals and you can record them if the HD receiver is a DVR.

To follow up on the current situation concerning something we talked about here a bit about 6 months ago --- Did a very close A/B check last night during HD Letterman between WKRC-DT/WHIO-DT, and I see the slight Greenish tint is still there from WKRC-DT, during CBS HD/Letteman Last night at least ..

Note that 2 of my 3 displays(all Direct-View CRT HD displays - One of them a "high end" model) are well calibrated concerning Greyscale/black level/gamma/White levels/Color decoding/"image processing/peaking/etc/etc ----- which doesn't really seem to matter much where this issue is concered, as this issue shows up to some degree in any case, regardless of how well the display is calibrated, or which decoder/receiver/etc(I've had/used 4 different models of the latter - 3 currently - doesn't necessarily mean there aren't any decoders which aren't effected, but ......). is used ...

HD Letterman is probably a good program to "notice" this on, as the greenish tint is probably most apparent in darker areas/shadows -- Although, if you look very closely you can see that it's also somewhat noticable concerning flesh tones as well. For instance, If Dave is wearing a Black Jacket, you'll see it has a slight greenish tint to it on WKRC-DT that isn't there via other sources of CBS HD I've checked(such as WHIO-DT, or WKYT-DT) ..... In fact, when you do the comparision it is as if a greensih "fog" or "film" present in darker tones has lifted when you switch to say, WHIO-DT, as if I had removed a green filter(say a very lightly green tinted saran-wrap) from the front of my Screen ...

I first noticed this issue several years ago when I recorded the first portion of a HD program from WHIO-DT, and the 2nd half from WKRC-DT. While it is a "slight" thing that likely would easily go unnoticed without a 2nd source of CBS HD for comparison, and how obvious it is may be dependant on various display related settings/calibration, it is much more apparent with such A/B comparsions to another source of CBS HD.

As I Recall, this(or something similar) had come up in the past in Programming area concerning it's appearance on other CBS HD affiliates, which if I recall correctly it had turned out to be the case that the stations involved were using Harris Flexicoders, and(again if I recall correctly) that one possible solution for stations using those Harris encoders may have involved certian encoder settings. I do not know If that is relevant in this situation, and it would probably take quite a bit of digging in AVSforum archives to find the info, but there you go in case it is of interest for the WKRC engineers who monitor this thread, if they missed it when it was brought up here and discussed about 6+ months ago ....

The other thing that satellite subscribers need to know is that the satellite vendors will only be carrying "the big four" (ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX) in their local HD packages. There has been talk that they will be carrying a national HD feed of the CW but, so far, that is pure rumor.

ALL of the HD satellite receivers have at least one ATSC tuner for OTA digital locals and you can record them if the HD receiver is a DVR.

Dish Network is sending the CW Miami affiliate signal to east coast cities without an affiliate they carry. Cincinnati area gets this signal on channel 254. This is a SD-Stereo channel. They carry WSTR-64 for MyTV.

// Scott A

The DD issues are about an improvement on ALL locals getting DD once they go thru D* (not just a 1 or 2, in Cinci-don't/can't do Dayton from here )
- Does something magical happen to the audio (I hope) when local/Sat are lit-up?
-When you say PQ is worse, as a percentage, how much worse? (could I also still have the option of seeing/recording OTA if I prefer?)...this upgrade is sounding underwhelming though...with my outside OTA ant. it's been very good AND reliable...I could get these new boxes(w/caller ID & a bit more capacity) though for almost nothing & make a bunch o money by eBaying my other 2 boxes...soooo what would you guys do : stay with the HR10 or upgrade (sort of) to the HR20?

Does anyone know when Dish Network will broadcast our local HD channels?

Does Direct TV already have local HD stations here? If not when will they get them?

Just trying to see if anyone might have this info. Thanks

Chad

Question and a Couple of current thoughts:

First - Anyone heard anything concerning if/when Either WCPO-DT/WDTN-DT or WHIO-DT is planning on getting it worked out so they can send "Wheel of Fortune" and "Jeopardy" in HD?

I did hear a report that Grey stations WTHR-DT In Indy, and WBNS-DT In Columbus(which I do receive sometimes, but haven't had a chance to check them for Jeopardy/wheel in HD yet) began sending those in HD pretty much right off the bat a couple weeks ago ....

Thoughts on WKRC-DT and WSTR-DT cuurent upconverts ....


WKRC-DT

I might be just seeing things, but at 5pm 9/25, currently it appears to me WKRC-DT upconverts have improved considerably. especially noticable in the Local12 Graphics and text. The studio shots today during local news also look quite good, and it appears to me colirmetry may have also improved(although some of the studio shots *may* appear to be pushing red a bit) - More difficult to say, but I may be noticing some sort of PQ improvement on the analog station as well.

In any case, certianly appears to be quite an improvement to me, perhaps to the point(or almost so) of looking more like component video(as in most cases it really should be the case via a DTV station) than composite ...

However(on digital 12.1 only), OTOH, I'm also noticing quite noticable MPEG2 compression artifacts at times during fast fades+wipes and quick moving graphics ....

--------------------------------

WSTR-DT

Have noticed the past week+ or so -- WSTR-DT has been changing their "black bars" on the sides of 4x3 programming(during upcoverted material) to Grey -- AND, it also appears they have the 4x3 programming formatted so that their equipment is adding absolutely NO "shutters" to the black bars on the side in order to in a sense, provide a sort of "overscanning effect" for stuff which would normally be hidden behind the bezel(on the sides) of a 4x3 TV ... Hope that makes sense, strange as it might sound, I can't seem to come up with the right words to describe that ...

Personally, I like it for 4x3 upconverted material, as long as they aren't distorting the Aspect ratio with some sort of non-linear stretch -- from what I can tell it doesn't *look* like they are doing that, but it's hard to say for sure without a good test pattern with lots of circles+cross hatch pattern/etc. to check the geometry ......

Also, While for some reason I think the upconverts looked a little better when WSTR-DT was sending 1080i (hard to describe, but they look a little more "pasty", "flat" and "TV Like" - as if the gamma is a bit different, and perhaps it's a bit softer as well ... Don't think the latter is on my end, as even though my display is displaying 1080i, I don't see that with WCPO-DT's upconverts or 720P HD, Including from WSTR-DT/My network TV) ... In any case it appears to me they have been working to make it better, as the PQ of the upconverts I think has improved the past couple of weeks .... If they'd only put something on there I'd want to watch, LOL .....


Just checked WKRC-DT 12-1 for 12News at 11, and yes, the upconverts are looking better. Still not as good as WLWT-DT or even WCPO-DT, but it is much improved.

I haven't had a chance to watch them too much for HD, but things I am currently noticing include:

1.) The green tint. I've been seeing it as well and it's pretty easy to notice when switching back and forth between WHIO-DT and WKRC-DT, especially during programs like CSI and other dramas with dark settings.

2.) Increased mpeg2 artifacting. Most primetime content (dramas, etc.) can get away with the reduced bandwidth fairly decently, although I can see a difference when switching between WHIO-DT and WKRC-DT. During sports, such as the Bengals game, the difference is very noticeable. It's bad enough on WKRC-DT that I watched the whole Bengals game on WHIO-DT except for a few occasions to check the PQ.

3.) One good thing... It seems like the switching is going more smoothly now that the new equipment is reportedly installed. I am also noticing a lot more HD commercials. Not that I really care that much about commercials, but it's always aggrevating when you know there is HD content but the station is choosing not to show it. In the past, during an HD show, when they would cut to commercial break, you could see the flip from the HD feed to the SD feed (usually the last second or two you'd see the CBS logo move from the far right corner into the 4:3 corner. Then, you'd get the bad quality upconverted commercials, even when you saw those same commercials in HD on other local stations. So at least from what I've seen in my brief checking, this issue appears to be much improved.


As for WSTR-DT, from what I have seen of their picture (which is not much as there isn't too much on there that I watch) it always seems to have what I have been calling a "clay" effect. It's almost as if everything is made out of clay. It's not really that bad, but I don't know how else to describe it. "Pasty" might be a good word as you suggested. Their HD looks pretty good though.


One more observation, and maybe this should go in the Dayton thread, but I noticed that 45-2 out of Dayton had MyNetwork content showing on it tonight. I checked WSTR-DT and it was the same content so that's how I know it was MyNetwork content as there were no logos/watermarks on the screen. This was between 9pm and 10pm that I checked tonight. At 10pm it had switched back to the "coming soon" still image (which recently improved from a jagged looking thing to a nice smooth image in the past week or so).

Dish has said they will carry Cincinnati HD locals - just no time frame. Directv announced two or three months ago that they would begin broadcasting hd locals in september -we dont know which ones yet.. I know wkrc and wlwt are on board.. i am sure wcpo and wxix are too.. now as for star64 - not sure... in most markets its just the big3 or 4 (abc, cbs, nbc, and fox) - if you call directv they may or may not tell you.. but as has been the case so far, most cities just light up with little or no warning.

jim

Does anyone know when Dish Network will broadcast our local HD channels?

Does Direct TV already have local HD stations here? If not when will they get them?

Just trying to see if anyone might have this info. Thanks

Chad

The DD issues are about an improvement on ALL locals getting DD once they go thru D* (not just a 1 or 2, in Cinci-don't/can't do Dayton from here )
- Does something magical happen to the audio (I hope) when local/Sat are lit-up?
-When you say PQ is worse, as a percentage, how much worse? (could I also still have the option of seeing/recording OTA if I prefer?)...this upgrade is sounding underwhelming though...with my outside OTA ant. it's been very good AND reliable...I could get these new boxes(w/caller ID & a bit more capacity) though for almost nothing & make a bunch o money by eBaying my other 2 boxes...soooo what would you guys do : stay with the HR10 or upgrade (sort of) to the HR20?

Last I heard the antenna input wasn't activated on the HR20, but was supposed to be soon. As far as "a percentage" of how much worse will the channels look, you might want to ask people in the Detroit, L.A. and other threads that have locals. The other advatage of the HR20 is the ability to receive other MPEG4 programing when available (like new HD channels when launched).

Well, the only "major" network not sending DD5.1 is WKRC-DT. All the rest, WCPO-DT, WXIX-DT, WLWT-DT, WSTR-DT provide DD5.1. Going live on D* has no impact on DD5.1 capabilities.

Last I heard the antenna input wasn't activated on the HR20, but was supposed to be soon. As far as "a percentage" of how much worse will the channels look, you might want to ask people in the Detroit, L.A. and other threads that have locals. The other advatage of the HR20 is the ability to receive other MPEG4 programing when available (like new HD channels when launched).

Well, the only "major" network not sending DD5.1 is WKRC-DT. All the rest, WCPO-DT, WXIX-DT, WLWT-DT, WSTR-DT provide DD5.1. Going live on D* has no impact on DD5.1 capabilities.
Yest at BB they said they just got new hr20's in with ENABLED OTA tuners. (I know - grain of salt)...BTW, which channels are/will be MPEG4?
Does anyone here have a hr20? -if so, will you let us know when locals are lit-up? Also, is the ethernet port enabled?
Anyone wanna weigh-in on Sat PQ vs TW PQ on locals?

It's almost as if everything is made out of clay.

That works too .... I did check them last night during "local12 News on My64", however, and I thought that looked quite good ...

As for previously .. Actually, during the "old" WB64 News at 10(before it went defunct), I thought it really had among the best PQ of Upconverts I have seen, especially the first few months ... Otherwise gamma has allways seemed a bit different during the upconverts on WSTR-DT than what results on WSTR analog ...

In general, I really don't like "upconverts" too much, as it often doesn't seem to take too much for them to look a little "overprocessed" or "unnatural" to me, and SD wise -- who knows, but perhaps part of that may be stations may be more concerned about the analog signal looking good on a SD TV than what that signal looks like upconverted on their digital station ....

I generally prefer to watch the digital SD from the PBS SD stations where available rather than the analog versions, and for everyone else(those upconverting to 720p/1080i) the analog stations for SD programming -- For the most part, I can't say any of the upconverts really look "better" to my eyes than the the good ol' composite NTSC SD video from the analog stations OTA(assuming excellent snow and ghost free reception of course), and usually there's something about the upconverts I don't like .... Have been exceptions however, such as (oftentimes) the SD upconverts which are done at network level and aired via the "HD feed", and, for instance the Star Trek episode I caught last week from WDTN-DT+WCPO-DT ....

But personally, and "generally", In Cincy -- Not including the improvments for WKRC-DT(as I haven't had enough time watching it yet) --- I currently think in Cincinnati WCPO-DT's upcoverts look best to my eyes, especially during local news+the live studio shots ... I've went back and forth on that though, as sometimes WLWT-DT seems to have had the edge ... I still notice with WLWT-DT that gamma appears to me to be too low(washed out blacks, mainly) during some upconverted programming -- Especially off the NBC SD feed .... It was especially noticable a couple weeks ago during a SD movie on Saturday Night from NBC (One of The Julia Roberts Movies) via comparision with WDTN-DT's upconverts(on 2.1) ...

As for WHIO-DT's(Dayton) Upconverts vs. WKRC-DT;s, the colors appear quite oversaturated to me on WHIO-DT -- Although, at times it has been much worse in that regard in the past ...

I do think there are a couple of important things to especially keep in mind here when comparing upconverts to any 480i digital or NTSC SD being sent as "native" SD by the stations :

#1). The quality(generally speaking) of the SD upconversion by your equipment --- probably mainly the "line-doubler" in the display --- to its native scan rate (usually 720p or 1080i/p I'd think). In this regard, I think it may sometimes be a good idea to also include in your comparision check out a "old fashioned" SD TV before trying to draw to many conclusions.

#2). -- The "quality" of the video sources themselves, which will vary *greatly* during any 30 minute period, during local news ....


One more observation, and maybe this should go in the Dayton thread, but I noticed that 45-2 out of Dayton had MyNetwork content showing on it tonight. I checked WSTR-DT and it was the same content so that's how I know it was MyNetwork content as there were no logos/watermarks on the screen. This was between 9pm and 10pm that I checked tonight. At 10pm it had switched back to the "coming soon" still image (which recently improved from a jagged looking thing to a nice smooth image in the past week or so).


Actually, WRGT-DT has been airing "My Network TV" programming on 45-2 (SD multicast channel) between 8~10pm beginning the 2nd Evening that MYTV was in exisitance, believe I posted something about it in Dayton thread. I of course haven't checked it every night, but it was there the first time a couple/few weeks ago. They did miss the first night of MyTV programming however. From the slate that's up, looks like they are planning to launch it officially on october 15, presumably with other syndicated/local programming or "classic TV" filling non-prime time hours, as WKRC-DT is doing on 12-2 with CW.

Cincinnati Locals lit up today on directv - 5,9,12,19

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=65497

jim

Cincinnati Locals lit up today on directv - 5,9,12,19

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=65497

jim
COOL! Anyone able to do a PQ comparo (OTA HD vs Sat Locals) out there?

Anyone notice horrible lip synch issues on WCPO-DT 9 tonight? The Barbara Walters interview at 10pm looked to have the picture about a second slower than the sound on digital cable, TWC. The analog signal had interference making the video tough to watch but the sound was in synch.

I have been noticing that problem on 9 and 12 for about 24-48 hours

DIRECTV Activates HD Local Channel Service in Cincinnati (http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060927005929&newsLang=en)

"The following local broadcast networks are available in HD: WKRC/CBS, WCPO/ABC, WXIX/FOX and WLWT/NBC. With the addition of Cincinnati, DIRECTV now offers local HD broadcast channels in 42 cities."

Note: The Cincinnati HD local channels are in MPEG-4 so you will need a MPEG-4 receiver and an AT9 (5 LNBs) dish to receive them.

DISH Network is planing on adding the Cincinnati HD locals later this year or early next year. They will be in MPEG-4 so you will need one of the DISH ViP receivers to get them. As of this date, DISH has not said what satellite they will be on.

WKRC-DT does have a green tint and has been there since I moved here in 2003. Both WKRC and WHIO have problems with their Harris Flexicoder with the focus issue. It would be great for this issue to be fixed because it is annoying to have the picture go out of focus every 10 seconds during football.

DIRECTV Activates HD Local Channel Service in Cincinnati (http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060927005929&newsLang=en)

"The following local broadcast networks are available in HD: WKRC/CBS, WCPO/ABC, WXIX/FOX and WLWT/NBC. With the addition of Cincinnati, DIRECTV now offers local HD broadcast channels in 42 cities."

Note: The Cincinnati HD local channels are in MPEG-4 so you will need a MPEG-4 receiver and an AT9 (5 LNBs) dish to receive them.

DISH Network is planing on adding the Cincinnati HD locals later this year or early next year. They will be in MPEG-4 so you will need one of the DISH ViP receivers to get them. As of this date, DISH has not said what satellite they will be on.

For you D* customers out there: Do you get the HD locals along with the basic package or do you get it as part of the $10/mo HD package?

i am not sure.. but I thought I read that you do not need the hd package to get hd locals.. only the sd locals package

I have only had DirecTV for a couple of weeks now and the locals are included in the Total Choice Packages (if your area can receive local channels). My understanding is you need the HD receiver to get any HD channels and the only way you get it is to subscribe to HD.

Hot damn. I get to watch Ohio State on Saturday night in HD.

For you D* customers out there: Do you get the HD locals along with the basic package or do you get it as part of the $10/mo HD package?

DISH Network customers who subscribe to the local package (or any package that has the local channels) get the HD locals too (only the "big" 4). ALL satellite HD receivers have an ATSC tuner so you can pick up all the local digital channels if you are in range of their signal.

Keep in mind that not all college games and NFL games are in HDTV. The local station can only televise in HD if it is produced in HD.

In your case Ohio State is definitely in HD this evening on WCPO-HD

The Bengals will be in High Def late Sunday afternoon on WKRC-HD. A lot of Bengals games seem to be in SD. Probably locally produced or an ESPN feed that wasn't produced in High Def



Hot damn. I get to watch Ohio State on Saturday night in HD.

The Bengals will be in High Def late Sunday afternoon on WKRC-HD. A lot of Bengals games seem to be in SD. Probably locally produced or an ESPN feed that wasn't produced in High Def

A lot of the Bengals games are not in HD because they on CBS. On any given Sunday CBS can only provide three NFL games in HD. You can find out which NFL games are going to be in HD by checking HERE. (http://cbs.sportsline.com/cbssports/schedules/page/nfl)

I have only had DirecTV for a couple of weeks now and the locals are included in the Total Choice Packages (if your area can receive local channels). My understanding is you need the HD receiver to get any HD channels and the only way you get it is to subscribe to HD.

Hot damn. I get to watch Ohio State on Saturday night in HD.

I guess anyone can buy an HD receiver, but agreeing to their HD package is another issue. I have a relative that asked me about this so I am just asking around in order to get this sorted out. He is not used to anything other than over the air analog so he's hesitant to get into a large, expensive package with D*.

I haven't received HD from WKRC on TWC 912 for at least 24 hours.

Is this a TWC issue or is WKRC having problems? Anyone receiving the signal OTA?

no ota hd from 12-1 at 8:45 / 7-1 out of dayton has hd just fine

jim

same with ota

I haven't received HD from WKRC on TWC 912 for at least 24 hours.

Is this a TWC issue or is WKRC having problems? Anyone receiving the signal OTA?

My picture on TW 912 looks high def. Its at least full creen and sharp and its not my TV enlarging the picture. I am in the 45140 area.

Anyone got the number to call at WKRC about this?

I really want to see this fixed before the Bengal game tomorrow.

hd is back for jerico on 12-1 - ota

Yes HD on 912 on TWC looks back as of 9:45pm.

Go Bengals!

10:35 PM and WCPO has lost their HD signal on Warner 909.

10:35 PM and WCPO has lost their HD signal on Warner 909.

1045 and WCPO once again has HD. It seems to happen after a commercial break. Its as if someone is being paid to throw a switch and he/she is on coffee break. Very annoying. I thought these things were automated.

Last night WCPO-HD (TW 909) had trouble recovering from commercial breaks. When they returned from break sometimes the HD was missing. Kind of frustrating. After the game they went to a blank screen while the Ch 9 was running commercials. Then 909 went to a test pattern, then went to a show about "Good Morning America". It looked like a filler network feed. And finally they upconverted and went to the local news. It looked like the inmates were in charge of the asylum or the cleaning crew was manning the control room. We didn't have these problems with HD when we lived in the Tampa Bay area. Is it that new in the Cincinnati area?

I guess anyone can buy an HD receiver, but agreeing to their HD package is another issue. I have a relative that asked me about this so I am just asking around in order to get this sorted out. He is not used to anything other than over the air analog so he's hesitant to get into a large, expensive package with D*.

Local HD channels are available for no additional charge, as long as you have the HD receiver. You do not have to buy the HD channel package.

I called DirecTV to confirm this.

Local HD channels are available for no additional charge, as long as you have the HD receiver. You do not have to buy the HD channel package.

I called DirecTV to confirm this.

Thanks for the direct and concise answer.

Does anyone know if Time Warner Cincinnati will be picking up Fox Sports Ohio HD coverage? (Perhaps on inHD?..) Quite a few Blue Jackets game on the NHL schedule page are listed as FSO (HD).

Does anyone know if Time Warner Cincinnati will be picking up Fox Sports Ohio HD coverage? (Perhaps on inHD?..) Quite a few Blue Jackets game on the NHL schedule page are listed as FSO (HD).

In Cincinnati TW carries something called FSNOH2. It seems to have some Blue Jacket programming. It is on TW Digital Ch 43. Not HD though. Not sure if it is in any of the pay for sports packages.

Does anyone know if Time Warner Cincinnati will be picking up Fox Sports Ohio HD coverage? (Perhaps on inHD?..) Quite a few Blue Jackets game on the NHL schedule page are listed as FSO (HD).


There has been no word on it yet. TWC has FSN-Ohio in HD last year up in Cleveland and Columbus for the Cavs. With the Blue Jackets in HD, one would expect it would be added.

What I am more interested in are the colllege football and basketball games in HD. FSN-HD has been broadcasting one football game a week in HD. Other TWC divisions around the country have picked up the programming and placed it on INHD2. I can't get an answer out of the TWC Southwest Ohio people on when/if it will be done here. Oh, there will at least be one college basketball game on per week in HD on FSN.

According to this article, http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6376892.html, WKRC has paid $350,000 (or $1 per subscriber) to get its CW feed on the TWC basic tier. No wonder there is no money left to upgrade the HD equipment.

In all seriousness, I think this shows the vast power that cable has. Ten years ago, cable was being forced to pay for retransmission. Now, its the reverse. Cable knows it can make or break a local station.

From the article:


"A source familiar with the deal says Clear Channel's WKRC Cincinnati has agreed to pay about $350,000—the equivalent of $1 per subscriber—for carriage of a digital CW feed on the local system's basic tier. The payments were in part for ads promoting the station.

CW officials worried that the network would be dark in the homes of marketing executives in charge of buying advertising at Cincinnati-based Procter & Gamble."

Hey, Any HD Tivo users (HR10) - have you got the new software v6.3 to box yet? It's being rolled out but I don't have it...

According to this article, http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6376892.html, WKRC has paid $350,000 (or $1 per subscriber) to get its CW feed on the TWC basic tier. No wonder there is no money left to upgrade the HD equipment.

In all seriousness, I think this shows the vast power that cable has. Ten years ago, cable was being forced to pay for retransmission. Now, its the reverse. Cable knows it can make or break a local station.


I wouldn't go as far as saying the situation has reversed. The CW is not a major network and I'm not surprised they had a hard time getting TWC's attention.

I believe major network affiliates still have the barganing power over cable. I think cable knows if they don't carry the major network affiliates the customer will take their money somewhere else. I am also under the impression that most local major network affiliates get paid a small fee for the retransmission, but I could be completely wrong. Some operating owners such as Sinclair Broadcasting seem to want more money than others and that is why they can't seem to make a deal with TWC and other cable operators.

I would expect when the full WKRC/Clear Channel contract comes up with TWC we will this situation reversed again. It would seem to me WKRC/Clear Channel knows TWC needs to carry the CBS affiliate, in the Cinci market, and they'll demand that TWC carry their CW subchannel at no additional cost or they'll refuse retransmission of all of their signals (i.e. CBS in the Cinci market).

I noticed that WRKC-DT was dropping both picture and sound (signal strength was good) during the news this evening. I called the station just to verify that the problem was not on my end. They said that they are aware of the problem and are working on it.

The problem seems better now but I thought I would post this in case anyone else was seeing it.

I noticed that WRKC-DT was dropping both picture and sound (signal strength was good) during the news this evening. I called the station just to verify that the problem was not on my end. They said that they are aware of the problem and are working on it.

The problem seems better now but I thought I would post this in case anyone else was seeing it.

WKRC on TW 912 is not having any problems during NCIS. Good signal and HD is on.

Folks,

I was told the HD locals are now available for Cincinnati. I have an Oct 18 install scheduled for the new HR20 DVR and the 5LNB dish.

Has anyone else bought/installed the HR20 (or H20) and the new dish yet?

Folks,

I was told the HD locals are now available for Cincinnati. I have an Oct 18 install scheduled for the new HR20 DVR and the 5LNB dish.

Has anyone else bought/installed the HR20 (or H20) and the new dish yet?Yes, I've got 'em scheduled to come next week to put 2 boxes in to replace my hr10's. But I'm second guessing that now as I understand they've dis-abled the OTA tuner which I don't like & even though U can get local thru Sat now, the PQ(mpeg2) is worse than OTA due to compression...Got 2 boxes for less than a c-note though...how 'bout U? PM me if you want...more discussion is over here : http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=112

Chris,

Thanks for your post. I got the HR20 for $150 (plus programming and $$$ credits), so it's kinda a wash as I was not a HR10-250 user before. I understand prior HD DVR subs got better deals to "upgrade."

And I still don't know if it's going to work on my 4:3 HD set. The HR10 didn't.......it only squished the 16:9 picture into 4:3 and didn't allow for letterboxing. If the HR20 does the same thing, I'll set it aside until I do get a new TV...afterall, they are now in the 3K range! ;)

Re: OTA tuner: The rep did tell me that D* plans to NOT turn on the OTA tuner. That's different than I have understood on the HR20 thread. I hope that is wrong....I can always use a back-up.....

Let us know if Bluegrass makes your appointment. I hear that there are a lot of cancels due to no stock on HR20s (and installers)!

I am in Mason, OH. Just got a Toshiba 50HP66 and love it! It's my first venture into HD territory...

I have D* with the HD package but am opting to get my locals OTA...for reasons discussed here (true HD from Dayton affilliates where Cincy fails) I want to be able to recieve the OTA broadcasts from both Dayton and Cincinnati, and D* is no help with Dayton since I'm in the Cincy DMA. Also being originally from Dayton I like to keep tabs on local news.

The antenna I am using now is an old UHF/VHF rooftop model that was here when I bought the house. Right now, if I point towards Cincy I get all the stations digital broadcasts except WCPO which is hit or miss...I get a lock but there is a LOT of dropping off or whatever you call it. If I aim towards Dayton I get all the major stations there too. This is by manually rotating and yelling down to my wife to mess with the TV.

I don't want to mess with rotor, so I have a couple questions:

First-what is a good antenna that might help me get WCPO and better overall reception?
Second-can I hook up two antennas, one aimed north-north-west, and the other southwest for each city's stations and run them both into my TV rather than have to rotate all the time?

cc deville? hows life after poison :)

anyway - you are probably having trouble with wcpo because they broadcast on vhf 10 whereas everyone else is in the uhf range. a good vhf antenna will get channel 9 (digital 10) with no problems. I use the channel master 3021/4221 4-Bay UHF ( http://www.channelmaster.com/pages/TVS/UHFAnts.htm ) - it picks up wcpo perfectly because it has excellent vhf reception. Not all uhf antennas work that well with vhf however.

As far as cincinnati / dayton and combining antennas, it can be done, but it has a lot to do with your hd tuner and location. I have two antennas mounted on my roof (Winegard sensar for cincinnati and the channel master for dayton) and use an a/b switch - works flawlessly. However, I have to switch it manually - makes tivoing shows tough becasue if cincinnati goes in the crapper and you are not there to make the switch - you get the point. Anyway as far as combining the signals if you have an older tuner it will most likley choke as the combined antennas will cause multipath. The newer 5th gen contex tuners do a great job - that being said - my hd tivo chokes when I combine the two antennas, but the fusion 5 hdtv pc card is fine - also if you are in mason, you may be closer to due north / south of cincinnati and dayton, where one antenna may work. Some folks in liberty township point twards cincinnati and get dayton fine off the of same antenna. Otherwise there are these devices called jointennas that isolate signals from the antenna and only pass 1 frequency on - so you could get a few of those devices and go from there. good luck - jim

cc deville? hows life after poison :)

anyway - you are probably having trouble with wcpo because they broadcast on vhf 10 whereas everyone else is in the uhf range. a good vhf antenna will get channel 9 (digital 10) with no problems. I use the channel master 3021/4221 4-Bay UHF - it picks up wcpo perfectly because it has excellent vhf reception. Not all uhf antennas work that well with vhf however.

As far as cincinnati / dayton and combining antennas, it can be done, but it has a lot to do with your hd tuner and location. I have two antennas mounted on my roof (Winegard sensar for cincinnati and the channel master for dayton) and use an a/b switch - works flawlessly. However, I have to switch it manually - makes tivoing shows tough becasue if cincinnati goes in the crapper and you are not there to make the switch - you get the point. Anyway as far as combining the signals if you have an older tuner it will most likley choke as the combined antennas will cause multipath. The newer 5th gen contex tuners do a great job - that being said - my hd tivo chokes when I combine the two antennas, but the fusion 5 hdtv pc card is fine - also if you are in mason, you may be closer to due north / south of cincinnati and dayton, where one antenna may work. Some folks in liberty township point twards cincinnati and get dayton fine off the of same antenna. Otherwise there are these devices called jointennas that isolate signals from the antenna and only pass 1 frequency on - so you could get a few of those devices and go from there. good luck - jim

I am using the HDTV tuner from my new DirecTV HD DVR reciever. Dunno if that helps. Mainly, I'm trying to make the setup easier on the wife, she already gets frustrated at the complicated nature of my system!

And I'm not THE CC but I'm a hair band fan from way back! And a guitar player. Saw Ratt live in '84 when I was 15 and Poison a couple years later...mainly because there were drunk, randy girls there. ;-) Many other bands too.

Does a remote switch exist? Or do you think my D* tuner could handle the double signals from two antennas? Perhaps I'll try your recommended antenna first to see what it does, maybe I won't need two for both Dayton and Cincy. I have no idea what's on my roof now (it was on the roof when I bought the house,) just looks like a traditional VHF/UHF medium range directional to me.

I once saw a remote controlled A/B switch that could be used for this, but I will have to search for it. I'll let you know!

directv hd dvr - is it the tivo (hughes) or the new hr20 with the blue lights n the front panel?

if its the hr20 - it has the new 5th gen tuner so it should work ok - but its really a crapshoot .. radio shack makes the remote a/b switch - http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2049643&cp=&pg=2&origkw=a%2Fb&kw=a%2Fb&parentPage=search

what part of mason - are you closer to Butler Warren road or Columbia Road - the closer to Butler Warren you are the better shot you have of getting 1 antenna to work.

good luck and post your results

I picked up a couple of those RS remote A/B switches a few years back ... They work great from the recliner ....

Jointennas are designed to allow signals from only ONE channel to pass from one antenna, and all other channels to pass from the other antenna, while blocking(actually just knocking it down quite a bit) that one channel from the "other" antenna. However, it's actually the case that 3 channels on either side of the channel being passed(or blocked) are "seriously" effected - 2 on each side more so than 3.

I don't really see how a solution with Jointennas would work very well for Cincinnati/Dayton digital stations, which are not only spread out all over the dial, but also, in one case operate on first adjacent channel(WXIX-DT 29/WRGT-DT 30). It's even more problematical if analog reception is desired as well, as there are then several Dayton/Cincy stations on 1st or 2nd/3rd adjacent channels ...

And of course, as some stations move around on the dial after analog shut off, you would need to get rid of the old jointennas in some cases and purchase new ones ... They come pretuned from factory, you specify which channel you want them for when you order ....

In the 70's, they used to make a set of "Cincy-Dayton" special antennas ... These were two antennas specifically "cut" and designed so that you could hook them together, aim one at Cincy+one at Dayton and they would work very well -- at least at the time for everything on the air except WPTO 14 and possibly WCVN 54(probably worked OK for the latter as well, but can't say for sure) ----- But ONLY for the channels they were *specifically* designed for (5,9,12,19,48 Cincy, 2,7,16,22 Dayton) .... They didn't/don't work so well these days for the new channels that came on the air since then, or for when channels move around the dial ....

So, Seperate Dayton/Cincy antennas+A/B switch before receiver is really the best option I think ....

As Jim said, you might get lucky by combining the antennas together onto same feedline(just use 2 way splitter "backwards") - and it might be worth a shot(No reason not to try it really, just keep in mind you might end up having to run that 2nd coax line ) === BUT chances are also probably good that while reception from both markets might seem very good at first, you may run into more problems at some point in an "unpredicatable" fashion" with this solution when the wind picks up and blows tree limbs around, leaves fall/come on trees, or planes fly over your house/etc .....

When you combine 2 broadband antennas aimed in different directions in this manner, the problem is that the antennas are out of phase, thus increasing such issues as : multipath/making it more difficult for your receiver to correct for multipath(uncorrectable multipath is just extra noise to the receiver) / Making it more difficult for the AGC circuit in your reciever to keep up with disturbances such as wind blowing tree limbs around, or other fading issues/ and also increasing the input signal levels front end of receiver has to deal with as you'lll be getting the blow torch signal levels from both the Cincy+Dayton stations "at the same time" rather than the benefit of rejecting quite a bit of signals from one city or the other off the back of a single antenna -- In other words, what you are doing, ,essentially, is negating quite a bit of the beneifits of using a single, properly aimed directional antenna ...

As for recording devices, keep in mind, you could hook up only the Cincy or Dayton antenna to it and use the A/B switch only for ATSC tuner in your TV(assuming there's one in there) .... Or, use a A/B switch sparingly on the recording device ... IMO, seems to me It's better than being limited to *only* the Dayton or Cincy stations, which is fairly likely to be the case otherwise, more or less .....

On WCPO-DT ... In addition to the VHF/UHF antenna thing -- If it's an old antenna you have currently and it's being fed with 300Ohm twinlead, that might be a potential cause of your problem as well, because twinlead is quite good at picking up electrical interference/other interference and causing problems on VHF ... If so, you'll probably see a lot of "sparkles" or "static" on analog VHF stations 2,5,7,9,12 ...

Oh, also keep in mind that while you're going to need VHF/UHF for Cincinnati, you only need UHF antenna for Dayton digital/HD stations currently, and at this point it looks like that is going to be the case after analog shut off as well(unless new stations in dayton pop up on VHF - probably fairly unlikely except perhaps for LP stations) ....

directv hd dvr - is it the tivo (hughes) or the new hr20 with the blue lights n the front panel?

if its the hr20 - it has the new 5th gen tuner so it should work ok - but its really a crapshoot .. radio shack makes the remote a/b switch -
what part of mason - are you closer to Butler Warren road or Columbia Road - the closer to Butler Warren you are the better shot you have of getting 1 antenna to work.

good luck and post your results

It's the new HR20.

I'm closer to Butler Warren, on Socialville Foster.

the hr20 has its ota stuff disabled.. so if you are watching the hd locals on it, they are coming mpeg4 off the satellites

the hr20 has its ota stuff disabled.. so if you are watching the hd locals on it, they are coming mpeg4 off the satellites

Whoops. It's NOT the new HR-20. It's a hughes. Thought I typed "not" in there but I didn't. I guess that's what happenes when you post from work.

the hr20 has its ota stuff disabled.. so if you are watching the hd locals on it, they are coming mpeg4 off the satellites

It's a Hughes HR10-DVR250. Felt stupid so I called the wife and had her look at it, :)

lol - I hate when work gets in the way.. if thats the case, then the combining of 2 antennas will most likley not work.. as the tuner in the hd tivo is not as good as the new 5th gen tuners. however, you may be close enough to be right in line with both towers - so one antenna may work - but like always its a crap shoot!

http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/programming/broadcast-market.php?dma_name%5B%5D=Dayton&dma_name[]=Cincinnati

check out this map - it shows where the tower clusters are for cincinnati in dayton - just west of I-75 is the prime spot - so being near Socialville-foster road may make it more difficult but you can try. With my channel master pointed twards dayton, and using the fusion pc card - I can get all cincinnati and dayton stations 95% of the time - the hd tivo will not get anything cincinnati off the dayton antenna.

jim

... so being near Socialville-foster road may make it more difficult but you can tryjim

I thought the further away is the best (angles). I'm in western Hamilton Cnty, and I either aim for 9/12/19 and not get 5, or aim for 5/12/19 and not get 9. I choose the former as I received a wavier (D*) to get NBC out of NY.

I live in the Mason area and I'm getting HD locals for Cincinnati and Dayton via OTA. I usually get a stronger signal with the Dayton channels but I can't pull in WBDT-DT (the CW affiliate). I can receive the analog signal pretty well and antennaweb says it's on the same vector as the other Dayton signals. Anyone have any ideas on this?

// Scott A

So, I had to rma my tv and just got it back (was gone for 2.5 months)
And so I plug the thing in via hdmi, I go to setup output formats and it will only stay on 1080i. I call twc and the lady on the phone said they decided to just output everything to 1080i because that is the "best picture quality".

Im so pissed off.


I have trees lining the whole southern edge of my house, and Im not going to cut them down just so I can get a dish signal. I wonder if I could mount a 20 foot pole to my roof and have a stable dish attached to it? Anyone have any suggestions? Im so fed up with twc.

And just when I was looking forward to the mlb playoffs in 720p. WTF is wrong with these people?

12-2 is not stereo on Smallville tonight. Its also 2x louder than 12-1. 12-2 was feeding stereo audio a few nights ago.

I can't get the locals in HD now in Cincy with Direct TV. Is that because I have the HR10-250? Is that not mpeg 4 capable? I am getting Smallville (Channel 25) in HD. Any thoughts?

Did you get them before? The HD Tivo (hr10-250) has the ota active as long as you have an ota antenna - that being said, the mpeg4 switch on last week should have had no effect on you what so ever - as the hd tivo can not see the mpeg4 stuff. As far as CinCW and Hd - not going to happen - what you are seeing is channel 25 via directv or 12-2 via an ota tuner at 480i or 480p - I think its i - either way.. not hd.

jim


I can't get the locals in HD now in Cincy with Direct TV. Is that because I have the HR10-250? Is that not mpeg 4 capable? I am getting Smallville (Channel 25) in HD. Any thoughts?

I have the same issue.. dayton is fine.. with the exception of wbdt - no love there.. even the fusion tuner cant touch it

I live in the Mason area and I'm getting HD locals for Cincinnati and Dayton via OTA. I usually get a stronger signal with the Dayton channels but I can't pull in WBDT-DT (the CW affiliate). I can receive the analog signal pretty well and antennaweb says it's on the same vector as the other Dayton signals. Anyone have any ideas on this?

// Scott A

In the case of using 1 antenna to get both cincy and dayton - being right in line with both is the key - which is just west of i-75 in butler or warren counties.. with that alignment, your antenna (in theory) can get both without splitters, joiners or swithces.. in the case of one market only, usually the further away you are, the more simple your alignment is.. for example, someone in norwood has a wider angle to hit all the cincinnati towers, where as my angle in hamilton twp is much less..


I thought the further away is the best (angles). I'm in western Hamilton Cnty, and I either aim for 9/12/19 and not get 5, or aim for 5/12/19 and not get 9. I choose the former as I received a wavier (D*) to get NBC out of NY.

Antennaweb has me just barely marginal for light-green (large multi-directional for all stations I need to get except for WBDT, which I can do without.

Is there a halfway decent multi-directional antenna out there worth trying? Should I get one with a pre-amp or should I use the amp further down the coax? Current antenna has no amp that I know of, but I'm probably going to split off the coax to another television and I worry about signal degradation.

I can't get the locals in HD now in Cincy with Direct TV. Is that because I have the HR10-250? Is that not mpeg 4 capable? I am getting Smallville (Channel 25) in HD. Any thoughts?

You are correct. The HR10 is MPEG2. The new HR20 is MPEG4 and requires a larger/5LNB/heavier dish to get the new signal. Call D* to get an "upgrade" to the HR20 at a nominal cost (go over to the HR20 thread and see what everyone is getting it for). One issue is that the OTA tuner is turned off for some reason.....will D* enable it? I heard both answers. Hopefully you have the digital tuner built-in your HDTV. The PQ is better over the air than the compressed signal D* sends down to the HR20. But with my terrible track record getting a consistant OTA signal, I welcome getting my HD locals through D*!

So, I had to rma my tv and just got it back (was gone for 2.5 months)
And so I plug the thing in via hdmi, I go to setup output formats and it will only stay on 1080i. I call twc and the lady on the phone said they decided to just output everything to 1080i because that is the "best picture quality".

My SA8300HD box outputs all formats and is not experiencing the same issue yours is, so either mine hasn't gotten an update yours has OR something is wrong with your box/settings. When you go into the extended settings you highlight 720p and press the select key on the remote and a dot doesn't appear/stay next to 720p?

The dots appear on the outputs I have choosen (720p, 480p). I puch the 'a' button to accept the changes, but the changes do not stay. Ive rebooted the box. Tryed the supposed screen setup (like the manual suggests) holding down info+guide after you turn the box off, that doesnt work.

It may be bacause Im in the Cincinnati TW district, who knows. Maybe the tech person I spoke w/ last night was misinformed. Ive emailed twc a nastygram about my issue. I will post my response.

The dots appear on the outputs I have choosen (720p, 480p). I puch the 'a' button to accept the changes, but the changes do not stay. Ive rebooted the box. Tryed the supposed screen setup (like the manual suggests) holding down info+guide after you turn the box off, that doesnt work.

It may be bacause Im in the Cincinnati TW district, who knows. Maybe the tech person I spoke w/ last night was misinformed. Ive emailed twc a nastygram about my issue. I will post my response.

When using a digital connection like HDMI the SA boxes are only outputing what is native to your set. The TW person you talked to just gave you answer to "move you on."I have a native 720p set and thru DVI the SA box will only output 720p. I did the same things you did to no avail. Up until that fateful time in August when they did their "upgrades" you could do a pass through but that is no longer available. That would be my preference because I feel my box is better at scaling than the SA box. You will find that you can output any of the settings if you use component connections. However the pass through still isn't an option. If you really want to play with that TW tech ask why there's no pass through option in outputting settings. The last one I asked suggested I call Scientific Atlanta :)

I think they're having issues coming up with a system that works for HDMI and DVIs out there and this is where they're at.

When using a digital connection like HDMI the SA boxes are only outputing what is native to your set. The TW person you talked to just gave you answer to "move you on."I have a native 720p set and thru DVI the SA box will only output 720p. I did the same things you did to no avail. Up until that fateful time in August when they did their "upgrades" you could do a pass through but that is no longer available.

So, i'm the only one that doesn't have this problem with a SA8300HD box? Mine outputs 480p,720p, &1080i as I configured it to do through my HDMI connection to a 720p native display.

I even think my box is up to date with the lousy double deletion confirmation, nice easy access "record with extended time" feature, and questionable "remind me" feature wich were all added recently.

I live in the Mason area and I'm getting HD locals for Cincinnati and Dayton via OTA. I usually get a stronger signal with the Dayton channels but I can't pull in WBDT-DT (the CW affiliate). I can receive the analog signal pretty well and antennaweb says it's on the same vector as the other Dayton signals. Anyone have any ideas on this?

// Scott A

Check out WBDT-DT info from FCC site, look at the info on their directional antenna pattern for the entry under "licensed digital channel 18", here :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=WBDT&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

At 170 degree bearing from their tower, it shows a relative field value of .218. Given their 35KW ERP full power(Licensed, Yes, that's their current "full power" allocation from FCC ) facility ---- to figure ERP sent in a particular direction from the relative field values :

Relative field value(in your direction) SQUARED x "max" ERP --- So ...

(.218x.218) x 35,000 Watts = 1,663 Watts being sent in that direction from WBDT-DT - Note that I didn't take the time to check your exact bearing, so you may be getting a little more from them ...

Compare 1,663 watts from WBDT-DT to 1,000,000 watts sent your way from say, WDTN-DT(non-directional transmitting antenna) ... That's roughly 9 times less signal, or - 27db less than say WDTN-DT is sending your way .... (each 1/2ing of power is about -3db) .... Or, roughly -18db compared to WKEF-DT (138KW ERP - Non directional antenna) .....

So, in other words, you're probably going to need a little better antenna setup to receive WBDT-DT than is the case for the other Dayton Stations .... And of course any terrain shielding issues would also make things a bit more problematical for WBDT-DT ....

compare WBDT-DT's predicted coverage area (note : This map is 41dbu contour, and is based upon a receive antenna mounted 30FT above ground with 10db gain(20db F/B ratio) and 100FT RG6(4db loss per 100FT of coax) - Terrain or other such signal attenuation issues are NOT taken into account as would be the case with a longely-rice study) :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT628342.html

With WDTN-DT's predicted coverage area :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT617874.html

In the case of using 1 antenna to get both cincy and dayton - being right in line with both is the key - which is just west of i-75 in butler or warren counties.. with that alignment, your antenna (in theory) can get both without splitters, joiners or swithces.. in the case of one market only, usually the further away you are, the more simple your alignment is.. for example, someone in norwood has a wider angle to hit all the cincinnati towers, where as my angle in hamilton twp is much less..

What theory, and what antenna? Directional antennas(thankfully) reject signals off the back side of antenna as well as the sides --- just generally not as much as off the side lobes ... A 15~20db or so F/B ratio is generally something that is desirable for directional UHF antennas ....


Is there a halfway decent multi-directional antenna out there worth trying?


Not really - Directional antennas and the *design* of directional antenna works(basically) like this : More gain=more directivity(=more rejection of signals off the sides+back of antenna) - All of which are desirable characteristics in terms of "pulling in" more signal and reducing issues such as multipath and interference ....

BTW, Your Sat dish is also a directional antenna, there is more that's similar about it compared to a typical directional TV antenna than is different ....

The question is I suppose is "how much" signal, and how much "multipath rejection" do you need in your particular circumstance .....

A "simple" 1/2 wave dipole -- such as "Rabbit ears" for VHF, or for UHF (such as RS "outline" Bowtie - an indoor "type" antenna of course) would the best "bi-directional" antennas I know of ...

I'm not sure how "bidirectional" it is on any or all VHF/UHF frequencies(Jim could probably help you out more with that), but the Winegard "Sensar" would probably be one of the very few outdoor type antennas that might work a bit better than a paper clip in this "bi-directional" regard ... Same thing is true for those dish-clip on antennas they have ....

Note that the CM3010 "stealthtenna" is fairly bi-directional on VHF(especially Lo-VHF and FM), but isn't really bi-directional on UHF -- UHF section on The CM3010 also is nothing more than a "swept forward" center fed 1/2 wave dipole cut for low UHF (channel 17 if I recall correctly), and really, a UHF loop antenna is a better antenna than that ....

You could of course fashion your own such antenna out of a bit of wire or pieces of an old antenna that would probably work pretty much just as well as any of those more expensive options ....

I believe you've already told us you can't pull in the Cincy or Dayton signals off the back side of your current antenna(but achieve reasonably good results with your current antenna aimed properly at either Dayton or Cincinnati), so, assuming(and granted this is assuming a lot) that's a typical, directional small~medium sized VHF/UHF combo TV antenna on your roof currently, I would say that's probably a good sign you're probably going to need to use either a rotor or seperate antennas (or again you could try the combining thing, might be worth a shot) ....

there *is* one other possible solution I'm aware of that would work with a Single antenna, but it would probably not be a viable solution, and I'm not even sure of the availablity of it, yet --- -- However, so far there has only been one receiver I'm aware of ( a Sylvania/funai OTA only model - can't recall which one), and one "smartantenna" (from an outfit called "DX antennna" ) ... This uses something called a CEA-909 "smartenna" interface which allows the receiver/antenna to work together to automatically adjust the antenna for best results from individual stations, including in different directions ... It doesn't use a rotor, instead, inside the relatively simple antenna, various rods and "traps"(not filters) are adjusted slightly and automatically to achieve best results ... This adjusting and the like I would guess probably does not happen all that quickly when you are switching channels/etc, but I that's just a guess ....

Check out WBDT-DT info from FCC site, look at the info on their directional antenna pattern for the entry under "licensed digital channel 18", here :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=WBDT&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

At 170 degree bearing from their tower, it shows a relative field value of .218. Given their 35KW ERP full power(Licensed, Yes, that's their current "full power" allocation from FCC ) facility ---- to figure ERP sent in a particular direction from the relative field values :

Relative field value(in your direction) SQUARED x "max" ERP --- So ...

(.218x.218) x 35,000 Watts = 1,663 Watts being sent in that direction from WBDT-DT - Note that I didn't take the time to check your exact bearing, so you may be getting a little more from them ...

Compare 1,663 watts from WBDT-DT to 1,000,000 watts sent your way from say, WDTN-DT(non-directional transmitting antenna) ... That's roughly 9 times less signal, or - 27db less than say WDTN-DT is sending your way .... (each 1/2ing of power is about -3db) .... Or, roughly -18db compared to WKEF-DT (138KW ERP - Non directional antenna) .....

So, in other words, you're probably going to need a little better antenna setup to receive WBDT-DT than is the case for the other Dayton Stations .... And of course any terrain shielding issues would also make things a bit more problematical for WBDT-DT ....

compare WBDT-DT's predicted coverage area (note : This map is 41dbu contour, and is based upon a receive antenna mounted 30FT above ground with 10db gain(20db F/B ratio) and 100FT RG6(4db loss per 100FT of coax) - Terrain or other such signal attenuation issues are NOT taken into account as would be the case with a longely-rice study) :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT628342.html

With WDTN-DT's predicted coverage area :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT617874.html


I'm in Liberty Township Butler county and Dayton CW is the weakest station. I unded up going with a rooftop mount to ensure that the signal didn't drop out from time to time.

Antennaweb has me just barely marginal for light-green (large multi-directional for all stations I need to get except for WBDT, which I can do without.

Is there a halfway decent multi-directional antenna out there worth trying? Should I get one with a pre-amp or should I use the amp further down the coax? Current antenna has no amp that I know of, but I'm probably going to split off the coax to another television and I worry about signal degradation.


Don't know if its the best antenna but the biggest one that radio shack has works well and since it comes in 2 pieces and the back piece is only for channels 2-6, you can toss it out and just mount the forward half. The forward 1/2 is still about 8 feet long though.

Interesting, TitanTV is now listing Wheel of Fortune and Jeopardy in HD on WCPO-DT. It wasn't when I looked Tuesday night but could this be coming true? I'm not huge fan of these shows but my aging mother sure will get a kick out of it.