Cincinnati, OH - HDTV [Text View] - Page 26

Nitewatchman

11-16-06, 07:26 PM

I meant to say that the real "local" stations, the ones people can pick up with rabbit ears (you can't get Cincy channels without a decent antenna setup),

As should already be evident from others recent responses, That's not necessarily the case. As more examples : In Dayton thread several folks in Dayton area, as far North as Englewood have reported receiving Cincinnati digital/HD stations with simple indoor antennas. I used to receive many of the Cincinnati analog stations with "rabbit ears" from Fairborn, and we've had folks in Northern KY reporting receiving Dayton stations with indoor antennas ...

Does it mean everyone can receive them with "rabbit ears" or a UHF loop antenna from 4, 15, 30 or 40 miles away, No, but many can .... As Jim said, it often has a lot to do with that "sweet spot" for the rabbit ears (near a window facing the towers is often a good idea) ....

In any event, as far as OTA reception goes, in an general sense The "real" local stations are the ones for which your location is within the coverage area of, no if's, and's or buts about it ....

[update] Now, that being said, there are certianly sometimes locations within a stations coverage area(even in some cases quite close to the towers) where issues such as terrain shielding can make reliable reception impossible, even with the best of outdoor antennas ... However, you/we are talking about a stations OTA signal coverage area in a general sense, not a specific sense as it might relate to a specific location or an indvidual or a couple/few indivuduals 35~40 miles away (such as yourself, or, say you and hall) reception results with simple indoor antennas ... [end update]

Neither analog or digital systems we use for OTA TV were designed with indoor antennas in mind (that doesn't mean they can't work in some(or many) circumstances) ..... both systems were designed with outdoor, directional receive antennas in mind ...

An addition follows:

Only two stations are given the local OTA broadcast rights, for that game it will be 1 in Baltimore and WLWT in Cincinnati.

That is correct ---- [update : Except they aren't "given" the rights, they have to bid/pay for it - the way I understand it, for this game WLWT outbid the other Cincy stations for the Nov 30 game : end update] AND the signal will be available OTA in most cases for Folks within 55~65 miles(and in some cases more)or so of those stations towers, regardless of what DMA they are actually in whether it be Cincinnati, Dayton, DC, Louisville, Baltimore, Lexington, Indy or Columbus. And perhaps in some cases Huntington/Charelston - not sure if there are any overlapping DMA for Baltimore stations other than DC area ....

WebHopperWeasel

11-17-06, 05:10 PM

jdhughes63,

So, in the hour between your two complaints have you bothered to call WKRC?

Calling is the only way to get it fixed. You can call 763-5503 and let me know. I will try to get it fixed as soon as possible. Sending a Email won't get viewed until the next day possibly.

Weasel

WebHopperWeasel

11-17-06, 05:15 PM

Speaking of WKRC... does anyone have the HD locals from DirecTV and notice an issue w/ WKRC?

I'm not sure what the problem is... but it's similar to a weak signal in that I get digital artifacts popping up fairly regularly. All other HD locals are fine so it's not a question of signal strength (or my TV) as they all come from the same satallite.

Just curious if anyone else w/ DirecTV has noticed such an issue...

If anyone is seeing this problem or see's it in the future please msg me. DirectTV cannot seem to see the problem. I have been troubleshooting it with them for 2 weeks. When they use the backup path it is ok. When they use the primary path it tears about 1/3 the way down the screen. But they can't stay on the backup path for some reason. Just let me know. The more info I can gather the sooner I can get it fixed.

Weasel

swartzy

11-18-06, 02:24 PM

If anyone is seeing this problem or see's it in the future please msg me. DirectTV cannot seem to see the problem. I have been troubleshooting it with them for 2 weeks. When they use the backup path it is ok. When they use the primary path it tears about 1/3 the way down the screen. But they can't stay on the backup path for some reason. Just let me know. The more info I can gather the sooner I can get it fixed.

Weasel

It actually got really bad this past Sunday afternoon during a Bengals game. I called D* and after about 30 minutes (most of it on hold, they dropped me once) the pciture went crazy and then came back perfect. They said they reset something w/ the satelite.

I haven't had an issue w/ CBS since. FOX the other night was doing something similar... but I wasn't watching anything on FOX so I wasn't worried about it.

tbenson81

11-18-06, 04:44 PM

Fox has the BCS games this year.

Can WCPO ever show an entire game in HD

That station is such a joke

Tony

jdhughes63

11-18-06, 04:44 PM

Unbelievable!! At 4:40 PM WCPO TW 909 just switched off the HD during the OSU-Michigan game. With all of the XMAS sales of HD TVs, these people need to get with the program

jimp2244

11-18-06, 05:44 PM

Fox has the BCS games this year.

Can WCPO ever show an entire game in HD

That station is such a joke

Tony

It wasn't WCPO's fault. ESPN dropped to SD. You could still see the Bottom Line coming through in HD, plus, a quick check to WKEF Dayton showed the same issue there. Not that WCPO hasn't had it's fair share of issues...

jdhughes63

11-18-06, 06:27 PM

It wasn't WCPO's fault. ESPN dropped to SD. You could still see the Bottom Line coming through in HD, plus, a quick check to WKEF Dayton showed the same issue there. Not that WCPO hasn't had it's fair share of issues...
Thank you for the correction. We don't get alternate channels here. No way to switch or verify a problem. With all of the HD issues with local Cincinnati staions I just assumed.......

JunkyardDogg

11-18-06, 07:40 PM

I do believe WCPO-DT did fix their sound, as I heard no echoing and I think the sound was balanced. I couldn't compare to WKEF-DT as they still have stereo only, even though I'm decoding DD5.1.

GO BUCKS!

Nitewatchman

11-18-06, 08:34 PM

I do believe WCPO-DT did fix their sound, as I heard no echoing and I think the sound was balanced.

Yep, at least for the game today.

I couldn't compare to WKEF-DT as they still have stereo only, even though I'm decoding DD5.1.

WCPO-DT is the only station in the area that is encoding surround sound from DD 2.0 sources+then "sending" it as a DD 5.1 stream, and it certianly seemed pretty cool and was working well this afternoon .... although I ended up watching most of the game from WKEF-DT, as I'd recently told one of their engineers I'd monitor it when I can for problems(and I haven't had a chance to watch much TV as of late) --- didn't see any BTW, other than the already mentioned problem the network or the folks in the truck at the venue/etc. had with the HD video for a few minutes just after 4:30.

The other Cincy/Dayton stations that do DD 5.1 are either #1).(if they have the necessary equipment/setup) switching between sending DD 2.0+DD 5.1 depending upon the source, OR #2). just sending DD 5.1 stream all the time, even if it's just 2 channel audio source (RF+LF) present.

Personally, generally I'm fine with any of those although I'd probably prefer the station switch the AC3 stream they're sending between DD 2.0 and DD 5.1 based on the source -- then, with my equipment anyway --- for 2 channel audio sources I can choose to either use 2 channel audio, or use dolby pro-logic surround --- I usually have things set up so the latter occurs automatically for DD 2.0 or analog 2 channel audio sources --- sometimes I change that though(can do it with a button press on remote), especially for some Music which was "recorded" as 2 channel audio ....

I dunno, but since WKEF-DT allways seems to be good about passing DD 5.1 when it's available from ABC, I'm assuming when we're just getting 2 channel audio from them during ABC HD it's because the production was done with 2 channel audio only .... Those have also been the occasions(up until now more or less, and since they started doing DD 5.1) when the "echo" problem has been there from WCPO-DT during ABC HD ...

buckeyes fan

11-18-06, 08:36 PM

Are any TW customers having any trouble with channel 905 or weather plus? My screen is absolutely blank right now and no sound?

jdhughes63

11-18-06, 09:37 PM

Are any TW customers having any trouble with channel 905 or weather plus? My screen is absolutely blank right now and no sound?
TW 905 is fine at 0936 PM. I have TW in Miami Twshp, clermont County

ScottA

11-20-06, 10:01 AM

How do the other SD stations with Dish compare with TWC as to picture quality? Stations like Fox News, CNN, etc.

What interior antenna do you have? Is it amplified?

I live in southern Warren County as well and I pick up most Cin and Dayton channels decently with my rabbit ear analog antenna. I'm thinking I might do OK with a similar set up for digital but haven't tried anything yet. TWC has "tried my patience"...

Sorry for the slow response. I think the Dish SD stations come through very well. A good sharp picture with no distortion or pixelization.

I have Terk amplified rabbit ears I bought at CircuitCity (recommended from this group). It took a lot of time to find my "sweet spot" but now I get at least one channel of every network in HD. The worst is ABC: WKEF only registers about 65 on my signal strength and I can't get WCPO at all. The big game Saturday would come and go so I had to switch to a SD WCPO when the signal broke up too much.

I'm happy with what I have so far but it's not perfect. I've been focusing now on recording HD OTA shows to my Mac Mini as a DVR. But that's a topic for another group...

// Scott A

jdhughes63

11-22-06, 07:07 PM

I know that this has been discussed before, but can someone give me a good concise answer. I have an LCD HD TV and I believe without a tuner. I am not interested in an antenna.

I would like to research Dish and Direct TV. I now have TW and get the major networks' HD programming. I also get their local news and programing.(in SD)

Do both Dish and Direct carry the major networks in HD?
Do both Dish and Direct carry the local network stations for news and weather and local programming?

Nitewatchman

11-22-06, 08:31 PM

Do both Dish and Direct carry the major networks in HD?
Do both Dish and Direct carry the local network stations for news and weather and local programming?

DirecTV (usually abbreviated as D* on this forum) :

As has been mentioned here numerous times, If you are within Cincinnati DMA, you can currently receive HD from the Cincinnati ABC(WCPO-DT), CBS(WKRC-DT), NBC(WLWT-DT) and Fox(WXIX-DT) affiliates via DirecTV. As well as those stations' local/syndicated programming --- The vast majority of the latter which currently is SD upconverted to 720p/1080i and broadcast on the digital("HD") station. No seperate OTA antenna needed for those, just the satellite Dish antenna+appropriate associated hardware(LNB, Receiver/etc) and subscription.

No digital stations from PBS(BTW we have 3 PBS HD stations in Cincinnati - all with different HD schedules), MyTV, CW Network or the local independant/low power stations are currently available via DirecTV dish - You'd need to use OTA for those (Unlike Cable STB's, most Satellite HD receivers can be used with OTA HD with a seperate OTA antenna as well) ---- Including, BTW in some cases if you're using cable, as TW cable doesn't carry several of those stations, nor does TW Cincy carry the digital/HD from Dayton stations which you could probably receive OTA from your location if you so wished.

Dish Network (usually abbreviated as E* on this forum)

Dish Network plans to offer The Cincinnati "HD locals"(the "big 4" affiliates, I believe), but I'm not sure when. The info at following link, and others comments earlier on this thread seems to indicate Cincinnati market probably isn't too far down on their HD locals "do-it" list :

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=54667

I believe both of those satellite providers also currently carry the analog ("completely" SD) signals of the top 4 affiliates in Cincinnati DMA. I don't know what the other local SD analog signals are which they do or do not carry.

I am not interested in an antenna.

Satellite Dishes ARE antennas, believe it or not ....

Nitewatchman

11-22-06, 08:42 PM

Enjoyed the following(info from CET-HD schedule on their website) locally produced HD program on WCET-DT tonight at 7:30pm(note: It also ran at the same time on the analog station) :

Hillside Firm

Wednesday, November 22, 7:30pm
[D] (CET_High_Definition)

A look at structures designed by architects Carl Strauss and Ray Roush includes comments from historian Jayne Merkel. Also: remarks by architect Michael Graves, University of Cincinnati professor David Niland.

Bill R (# 2)

11-22-06, 11:00 PM

I believe both of those satellite providers also currently carry the analog ("completely" SD) signals of the top 4 affiliates in Cincinnati DMA. I don't know what the other local SD analog signals are which they do or do not carry.

DISH Network carries the following locals:

WLWT CH 5
WCPO CH 9
WKRC CH 12
WPTO CH 14
WXIX CH 19
WCET CH 48
WCVN CH 54
WSTR CH 64

DISH did not reach an agreement with Clear Channel to carry the CW so they provide Cincinnati DMA customers with the CW feed out of Miami, Fl. (it is better than the CinCW feed because it doesn't have as much "paid programming").

DirecTV carries all of the same stations except that they do carry the CinCW (on channel 25) instead of the Miami CW.

Sea Ray

11-22-06, 11:56 PM

Satellite Dishes ARE antennas, believe it or not ....

So you're saying that with a satellite dish you don't need a separate antenna for OTA HD locals? I know that the dish needs to point in a certain direction (south?) but what if your locals are in a different direction?Do you generally need an additional HD antenna or does the dish suffice?

mr_freebie

11-23-06, 09:54 AM

Stopped by Circuit City and Best Buy last night. Neither had ANY HD Tuners. Both stores also only have one model listed on their web sites (which is actually the model I want) but they are out of stock online and in every store (at least the ones I checked from Cincinnati to Dayton to Columbus).

In fact, if anyone knows where I can buy the Samsung DTB-H260F, please let me know, because I have yet to find a place, even online, that has this thing in stock.

The Best Buy in Fairfield TWP. Had the empty samsung demo box. We checked for 20 minutes online looking for any availability. It looks like Tri-county and Florence may be the only 2 stores that stock them in the area when they finally get in. but your local BB can order it once it is in at the warehouse. This was last weekend
Tom

jdhughes63

11-23-06, 10:13 AM

So you're saying that with a satellite dish you don't need a separate antenna for OTA HD locals? I know that the dish needs to point in a certain direction (south?) but what if your locals are in a different direction?Do you generally need an additional HD antenna or does the dish suffice?
My question was related to local HD broadcasting. If I understood him, Direct TV (D*) carries the local HD feed on their system. It is not an Over the Air (OTA) thing. It also includes their non HD local programming on their HD channel. So the dish is not receiving directly from the staion but from their satelitte.

In the other hand Dish TCV (E*) does not carry the locals in HD and one needs a second antenna (not the satelitte antenna) to get them.

I hope I have understood it all correctly. I am afraid after Christmas there will benhundreds of new folks with HD TV and all of the questions will be asked again -over & over.

Happt Thanksgiving to all.

R_Willis

11-23-06, 11:04 AM

So you're saying that with a satellite dish you don't need a separate antenna for OTA HD locals? I know that the dish needs to point in a certain direction (south?) but what if your locals are in a different direction?Do you generally need an additional HD antenna or does the dish suffice?

Yes. As long as you have the new AT9 5lnb dish from Directv (seen here: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=AT59&xzoom=zoom) you do not need any other antenna. You'll get Fox, NBC, ABC, CBS in HD from the directv sats in space.

You'd have to have one of the newer type directv receivers like the H20.

You'd have to have the locals package (~$4.99) however, to get them.

There IS a difference is the quality of the picture from OTA HD locals and Directv HD locals however. Just not as crisp and clear as OTA, probably a result of the compression of the signal.

Hope this helps.

Nitewatchman

11-23-06, 12:16 PM

DISH did not reach an agreement with Clear Channel to carry the CW so they provide Cincinnati DMA customers with the CW feed out of Miami, Fl.

Interesting. I'm surprised they are allowed to do that. Usually, per the net-affiliate agreements the local affiliate has the sole distrubtion rights for the network programming within the DMA.

I use E*'s AT60 and am in Cincy DMA, but I don't do LiL. I don't get the Miami CW feed from E*(at least off the 110 or 119 birds), which is no problem as OTA I receive CW HD from WBDT-DT Dayton as well as WKRC-DT's SD CW multicast.

Fortunetly, OTA signals aren't "confined" to DMA boundaries -- especially since I'm only 12 miles from the Dayton antenna farm, LOL, Closer than I am to the Cincy/N KY sticks ... Many of my neighbors(especially those who work in Dayton area) who use D* or E* sub to LiL, but also have an OTA antenna on the roof(or use "rabbit ears") aimed at Dayton -- mostly for the local news.

(it is better than the CinCW feed because it doesn't have as much "paid programming").

I suppose it does currently have "Little House", "Charile's Angels", "Simon&Simon" and "M*A*S*H" and a few other programs, and I think I caught a movie running on it on a Sat or Sunday afternoon ....

I think for now anyway I'll pretty much stick with WHIO-DT for improved CBS HD quality+DD 5.1 audio and "smoother" switches to/from CBS HD feed to local programming ....

Who knows, maybe things will improve once whoever is going to buy CC's TV stations takes over ....

jimp2244

11-23-06, 03:33 PM

Who knows, maybe things will improve once whoever is going to buy CC's TV stations takes over ....

Someone is going to buy ClearChannel TV stations?

You'd have to have the locals package (~$4.99) however, to get them.

There IS a difference is the quality of the picture from OTA HD locals and Directv HD locals however. Just not as crisp and clear as OTA, probably a result of the compression of the signal.

Why anyone would pay $4.99 a month to get HD locals which have had their resolution reduced and then been recompressed with lossy mpeg4 is beyond me.

The picture you get with OTA is better and your screen won't go blank when it rains. Not to mention it's free...

R_Willis

11-23-06, 10:19 PM

Someone is going to buy ClearChannel TV stations?

Why anyone would pay $4.99 a month to get HD locals which have had their resolution reduced and then been recompressed with lossy mpeg4 is beyond me.

The picture you get with OTA is better and your screen won't go blank when it rains. Not to mention it's free...

It's $4.99/mo for locals no matter if in SD or HD. If you have a HD receiver you'll get both SD and HD. If not, just SD.

This way I get sporting events from both Cincy and Dayton markets. My directv locals are Cincy, while my OTA antenna picks up all the Dayton stations, but only some of the Cincy stations.

Not saying it's worth it to all, but for me, it is.

Nitewatchman

11-24-06, 11:23 AM

Someone is going to buy ClearChannel TV stations?

Well, they plan to sell their entire TV station group (includes WKRC) ...

See here :

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/16/AR2006111600537.html?nav=hcmodule

Or from the horse's mouth :

http://www.clearchannel.com/Corporate/PressRelease.aspx?PressReleaseID=1825

For some local commentary on it See the entry under 11/16/06 date here :

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/tv/

Nitewatchman

11-24-06, 11:27 AM

while my OTA antenna picks up all the Dayton stations, but only some of the Cincy stations.

Rotor or seperate antennas for Cincy/Dayton is usually a good idea, unless you are in a location where the Cincy+Dayton towers are in the same general direction (latter applies to some in N KY and in some areas near I-75 North of the Dayton antenna farm.)

addition :

BTW, I don't think any(or many cable systems) of the cable/sat providers currently carry Cincinnati Stations WBQC-CA WOTH-LP -- both of which currently have quite a bit of sports programming -- and they should be going digital soon along with the Cincy TBN LP translator W36DG - there's also a new applicant in the area for a DTV LP station on channel 6 from a transmitting location near Oxford - don't know what sort of programming they will have if they ever manage to make it on air.

Except for WKRC-DT's CW SD on D*, nor do I think the sat providers carry the digital stations' SD multicast services.

zekyl

11-25-06, 09:01 AM

zekyl

11-25-06, 09:55 AM

Good day everyone.
I have been reading the thread about QAM & TWC. I was able to pickup a westing house 32" LCD from Bestbuy Friday. I plugged in my trusty TWC and did a scan. It found a few HDTV stations like 5, 9, 48, 54, TNT, and Discovery HD. I am unable to locate 12 or 19. I would really like to pickup those. Does anyone have any thoughts for that? The TV also found a ton of digital channels which it can't decode. I haven't looked at any of them yet, but I was wondering if anyone knew the channel number of 12 and 19 that I should try and have the TV scan for. If anyone has any ideas let me know.
Thanks!

Updated: I did a rescan and then went through all the stations. I found Channel 12 CBS on 86.1 and FOX19 on 85.4. I am unable to get it to remap however, I am hoping I can dig up something on Westinghouse for remapping. If anyone has an idea, please reply.
Thanks again.

jimp2244

11-25-06, 10:55 AM

Updated: I did a rescan and then went through all the stations. I found Channel 12 CBS on 86.1 and FOX19 on 85.4. I am unable to get it to remap however, I am hoping I can dig up something on Westinghouse for remapping. If anyone has an idea, please reply.
Thanks again.

I don't have much experience with QAM but my understanding is that it's up to the provider (TWC in this case) to pass the remap info on to your receiver. I don't believe it is an issue with your TV/tuner.

zekyl

11-25-06, 05:55 PM

I don't have much experience with QAM but my understanding is that it's up to the provider (TWC in this case) to pass the remap info on to your receiver. I don't believe it is an issue with your TV/tuner.

Thanks, I figured it might be something like that. I have emailed Westinghouse to see if there is a way to manually remap a channel.

tsc

11-25-06, 09:29 PM

zekyl: I no longer have TWC (but still get a signal to the house, heh heh). I have the W6 version of the 32" Westinghouse (the model that your's replaces -- congrats on a great price!). I see you've already found 12 & 19. I remember having the same problem, waiting forever for a scan, and disappointed that I had 5, 9, TNTHD and DiscHD mapped, but couldn't find 12 & 19.

I don't think you can manually map the channel on the TV, good luck with that. Instead, what I did, was delete all the other digital channels that were found from the list -- that way they were still easily accessible when channel surfing. Then again I really didn't use it all that much, just as a backup, as I had an HD receiver hooked to that TV.

The other digital channels that you've found are encrypted by TWC, for the most part. You may run into the occasional VOD that a neighbor is watching, but it will be completely random. Also, keep in mind that TWC's mapping can change at ANY time, so be prepared if you come home one day and your channels have no signal.

Again, congrats on the tv! I love mine, use it in the bedroom with a ViP211 receiver from E*, Vip622 in the living room on a 52".

Bill R (# 2)

11-25-06, 09:43 PM

The problem is NOT your Westinghouse TV or, very likely, NOT your cable system. Mapping information is within the PSIP information that every digital OTA has (or is suppose to have) and the cable companies don't (and usually can't) mess with it. Both ch. 12 and 19 have many more problems with their PSIP data than any of the other Cincinnati stations (but ALL of them have had some problems within the past year). Your best bet is to do a rescan latter and see if they map. Once they map correctly your TV should be able to get them even if the PISP data is missing or not correct. If your TV uses PSIP (and not the onscreen TV Guide) for its guide information notice how many times it is missing or very limited from the Cincinnati stations. The FCC requirement is for 12 hours of PSIP guide information but very few of the Cincinnati stations comply with that requirement.

Bill R (# 2)

11-25-06, 09:53 PM

Also, keep in mind that TWC's mapping can change at ANY time, so be prepared if you come home one day and your channels have no signal.

The same thing is very true on Insight Cable in Northern Kentucky. In the last two years they have moved some local broadcast digital stations around several times. My STB is a Sony HD DVR recorder (without a cable card) and I have missed recording a few programs because of their channel moves.

zekyl

11-26-06, 02:22 PM

cokebear

11-26-06, 08:51 PM

Updated: I did a rescan and then went through all the stations. I found Channel 12 CBS on 86.1 and FOX19 on 85.4. I am unable to get it to remap however, I am hoping I can dig up something on Westinghouse for remapping. If anyone has an idea, please reply.
Thanks again.

I'm really curious where TNT and DISC remapped to on your set.

Bill R (# 2)

11-26-06, 09:39 PM

I'm really curious where TNT and DISC remapped to on your set.

Both of those HD channels should be encrypted on ALL cable system. Encrypted channels do not (or at least should not) remap. If you get a cable card and subscribe to those channels they will show up on their "normal" channel number, that is, the same channel that subscribers with the cable company's STB will receive them on.

zekyl

11-27-06, 07:16 AM

Both of those HD channels should be encrypted on ALL cable system. Encrypted channels do not (or at least should not) remap. If you get a cable card and subscribe to those channels they will show up on their "normal" channel number, that is, the same channel that subscribers with the cable company's STB will receive them on.

Well that is what I thought too, but I get TNT on 969 and Discovery HD on 970 using the internal HDTV tuner. I could not believe it either when I started going through all the channels the tuner picked up.

tsc

11-27-06, 08:57 AM

Yes, TNT and DiscHD SHOULD be encrypted, but they're not in my TWC market. I'm not complaining, and let's not let TWC get word of this. :) Also mapped to 969 and 970 (same channel numbers as the normal lineup).

zekyl: you MAY be able to get a 3250HD receiver for no charge with the right sweet talk, but I wouldn't bet on it. Instead of threatening to leave for a DBS provider, maybe you should just really do it. :)

I recently switched to Dish Network and I'm loving it.. lots more HD, and PQ is the same, if not better than TWC is in my area. the ViP622 DVR beats the snot out of the 8300HD DVR, too, in my opinion. Also, even after a year when all the promotions are over, between switching to Dish Network and ZoomTown for DSL, I'll still be saving about $60 per month. This is with DishHD Platinum (every channel basically). I can say from experience that the Dish HD channels will look amazing on that 32" LCD. :)

Of course when I called to cancel, TWC offered to lower my bill to $150 for 6 months (was paying $190/month). Told them I'd already be getting less than that, even after promotions. He put me on hold and came back saying he can't go any lower. It was great hearing his response when I told him that, even if they could give it to me for less, could they add 20+ more HD channels overnight? More importantly, could they give me ESPN2HD and NFLHD (even SD NFL Network) overnight? Of course he said they couldn't and setup my cancellation. :)

tbenson81

11-27-06, 09:18 AM

Anyone know when WKRC is going to show Shark and Survivor this week since they are broadcasting the Bengals?

These arent going to be cancelled completely are they?

Tony

tsc

11-27-06, 09:45 AM

Anyone know when WKRC is going to show Shark and Survivor this week since they are broadcasting the Bengals?

These arent going to be cancelled completely are they?

Tony

According to what I've read, and my guide info on E*, WLWT will be broadcasting the Bengals game. I'm having to record NBC shows that night on WDTN (2) in Dayton instead. So.. your CBS shows on WKRC should be fine. :)

tbenson81

11-27-06, 10:05 AM

Thanks man!

I thought it was on CBS

jim tressler

11-27-06, 10:17 AM

tsc

11-27-06, 12:12 PM

wlwt bought or won bidding war - if there was one - to the local rights to show the game - now the question is.. will it be hd.. although I am not worried as directv and dish carry nfl network in hd :)

I have E*, so I get NFLHD, but I'm hoping that WLWT airs the game in HD. Not only for possible PQ improvements, but because the game could be blacked out. Guess we'll find out Thursday night. :)

jim tressler

11-27-06, 12:22 PM

its a national game.. it will not be blacked out on nfl network

jdhughes63

11-27-06, 02:07 PM

I have E*, so I get NFLHD, but I'm hoping that WLWT airs the game in HD. Not only for possible PQ improvements, but because the game could be blacked out. Guess we'll find out Thursday night. :)
My listings show it to be in SD and not HD. Bummer. That's 2 games in a row in SD. A lot of folks are going to get a real surprise at Christmas when they see what is not broadcast in HD on their big new HD sets.

jimp2244

11-27-06, 03:33 PM

My listings show it to be in SD and not HD. Bummer. That's 2 games in a row in SD. A lot of folks are going to get a real surprise at Christmas when they see what is not broadcast in HD on their big new HD sets.

WLWT has the proper equipment and has proved that it does work. Thursday's Bengals vs. Ravens game will be broadcast over the air for free on WLWT-DT, in HD.

jdhughes63

11-27-06, 03:53 PM

WLWT has the proper equipment and has proved that it does work. Thursday's Bengals vs. Ravens game will be broadcast over the air for free on WLWT-DT, in HD.
I don't understand. Why would they broadcast HD over the air and not also Time Warner. That doesn't make sense. Maybe my listings are wrong. However I checked on both Yahoo & Zap2It. Both says the ganme is SD.

jimp2244

11-27-06, 05:59 PM

I don't understand. Why would they broadcast HD over the air and not also Time Warner. That doesn't make sense. Maybe my listings are wrong. However I checked on both Yahoo & Zap2It. Both says the ganme is SD.

I didn't mean to be misleading... WLWT will be airing the game in HD. Time Warner carries WLWT's HD feed, so, therefore, you will be able to get it via Time Warner as well. Those third party listings are not always a good determinant for whether or not programming will be in HD.

jdhughes63

11-27-06, 06:38 PM

I didn't mean to be misleading... WLWT will be airing the game in HD. Time Warner carries WLWT's HD feed, so, therefore, you will be able to get it via Time Warner as well. Those third party listings are not always a good determinant for whether or not programming will be in HD.
I just checked WLWT's website. It also lists the game in SD and not HD. I sure hope Yahoo TV, Zap2It, and WLWT's own website are wrong and you are correct. Where does your info come from.

jimp2244

11-27-06, 06:46 PM

I just checked WLWT's website. It also lists the game in SD and not HD. I sure hope Yahoo TV, Zap2It, and WLWT's own website are wrong and you are correct. Where does your info come from.

If you looked at the "TV Listings" link on WLWT, that content is provided by titantv.com, another 3rd party TV listing.

My information comes from the chief engineer at WLWT.

jim tressler

11-27-06, 08:10 PM

jimp2244

11-27-06, 09:25 PM

From the station manager today:

Richard Dyer
"WLWT-DT does intend to carry the Nov 30 Bengals/Ravens game in High
Definition. We have the equipment in place and it has been tested.
Unfortunately this is not something we do every day, and it is only the
second NFL Network live game, so a few question marks remain because of the
infrastucture changes we are making. Our goal has been and continues,
which is to bring this NFL Network game to the Cincinnati market in both SD
and HD. As you are aware not all of the regular network games are yet
presented in HD, so please bear with us if we have any bumps along the way.

I hope you enjoy the broadcast."

Looks like they are starting to care about hd which is a good thing!!

[The mood of what I've written below may appear cynical or bitter, but please don't take it that way. I'm just trying to point out that we do have one station around here that knows what they are doing!! :) ]

I would contend, as I have in the past, that WLWT has always cared about HD. Their digital signal has been by far the most reliable, most consistantly high quality, and least problem-ridden in the region. When was the last time they missed a switch to HD? (I can't remember it ever happening). They've been passing 5.1 audio for as long as I can remember.

On the other hand, we've got WCPO who, after many months of saying they "didn't see the issue," finally fixed their resolution problem, and more recently has had the "pvc pipe" audio issues.

WKRC consistantly misses switches to HD and while they have been getting better after the installation of the automatic switching equipment, they still miss the switch from time to time. When I contacted them about carrying the HD feed from ESPN for the Monday Night Bengals games I was told it was not possible by one engineer and that it was too expensive by another.

WXIX still isn't passing proper PSIP (programming) information, and their non-network content looks like a high-school student ran composite video connections to the HD encoder.

Anyway, hopefully the HD relay goes problem-free for WLWT on Thursday, and lets hope for a Bengals HD victory on Thursday!

terryfoster

11-28-06, 09:13 AM

WKRC ... When I contacted them about carrying the HD feed from ESPN for the Monday Night Bengals games I was told it was not possible by one engineer and that it was too expensive by another.

Sure the simple answer is that it isn't possible and that it is too expensive. Think about it in the grand scheme of things (I think I may have already said this before but I guess it bears repeating). WKRC-DT being a 1080i station would have to make some pretty major configuration changes to their equipment and possibly needing to purchase new equipment to deal with the 720p signal from ESPN. This would all be for only two games this season. Maybe in the future when equipment costs go down and the demand for HD goes up the cost to benefit ratio would even out, but right now I'm betting we would rather they spend that kind of money on a DD5.1 encoder. WLWT-DT OTOH is getting a 1080i signal from the NFL Network and would have to jump through fewer hoops to get that signal on the air.

jdhughes63

11-28-06, 10:44 AM

WLWT-DT OTOH is getting a 1080i signal from the NFL Network and would have to jump through fewer hoops to get that signal on the air.
Can you explain why WLWT and the other stations seem to have no problem in forwarding on the network prime time feeds in HD but seem to have a real problem passing on a football feed in HD. I have always been told that if they get it in HD they can pass it on in HD. Why now is that a problem with football. If the Bengals feed is in HD then they should be able to transmit it.

terryfoster

11-28-06, 10:54 AM

Can you explain why WLWT and the other stations seem to have no problem in forwarding on the network prime time feeds in HD but seem to have a real problem passing on a football feed in HD. I have always been told that if they get it in HD they can pass it on in HD. Why now is that a problem with football. If the Bengals feed is in HD then they should be able to transmit it.

Huh? I'm not sure what you mean. Here's my stab at what I think you mean:

ESPN and NFL network are not the normal network feeds for WLWT-DT and WKRC-DT so they have to do things differently to put those on the air (as I stated earlier). So it's not as simple as "Oh, here ya go. Have some HDTV." like it is now for their long standing regular network feeds.

Sea Ray

11-28-06, 11:09 AM

Huh? I'm not sure what you mean. Here's my stab at what I think you mean:

ESPN and NFL network are not the normal network feeds for WLWT-DT and WKRC-DT so they have to do things differently to put those on the air (as I stated earlier). So it's not as simple as "Oh, here ya go. Have some HDTV." like it is now for their long standing regular network feeds.

I think his question is why is it more problematic to for WLWT to receive a feed from NFL Network than it is from NBC?

We'll see how it looks. I commend Ch 5 for giving it the ol' college try but it sounds like the HD might look worse than a good SD. Oh well, the important thing here is a Bengals win.

ScottA

11-28-06, 11:16 AM

I searched but couldn't find an answer to this:

When WXIX delays Fox programming for UC Basketball, they show it at 11:00 PM the same night. Do they broadcast these shows in HD or just SD? I haven't heard if they have the equipment to store and broadcast in HD.

// Scott A

jimp2244

11-28-06, 12:34 PM

I think his question is why is it more problematic to for WLWT to receive a feed from NFL Network than it is from NBC?

We'll see how it looks. I commend Ch 5 for giving it the ol' college try but it sounds like the HD might look worse than a good SD. Oh well, the important thing here is a Bengals win.

They have specialized receivers and other equipment that are in place to carry HD from NBC every night. WLWT is not affilliated with NFL network so they need special equipment to receive the feed from NFL network.

We'll see how it looks. I commend Ch 5 for giving it the ol' college try but it sounds like the HD might look worse than a good SD. Oh well, the important thing here is a Bengals win.

I did hear that last week NFL network had some technical glitches, but I don't know how much of that was applicable to HD and how much was just the broadcast in general. I don't really forsee any quality issues for WLWT, especially on their end. We'll see what happens.

I searched but couldn't find an answer to this:

When WXIX delays Fox programming for UC Basketball, they show it at 11:00 PM the same night. Do they broadcast these shows in HD or just SD? I haven't heard if they have the equipment to store and broadcast in HD.

// Scott A

I'm 99% sure that WXIX does not have the equipment to record/store the HD feed for later broadcast. If you want the Fox network programming in HD your best bet is to watch/record Fox45 out of Dayton when UC Basketball is on WXIX.

jimp2244

11-28-06, 06:07 PM

Additional information about WLWT on Thursday night can be found at the link below, including confirmation of HD for the Bengals game and also when WLWT will air the NBC prime-time shows that are being pre-empted by the game:

http://www.wlwt.com/news/10404872/detail.html

Nitewatchman

11-28-06, 11:23 PM

WKRC-DT being a 1080i station would have to make some pretty major configuration changes to their equipment

I don't know, but I wouldn't think *solely* because the ESPN HD feed is 720p and because they are sending 1080i *should be* all much of the issue. I would think other issues such as purchasing and or configuring any necessary gear to receive+decode the feed may be more problematic as transcoding 720p to 1080i for broadcast wouldn't seem like it should be that big of a deal.

However, that being said -- I suppose the 720p/1080i thing could be more of an issue for WKRC's "specific" equipment, although again, I don't know. I do seem to recall hearing that it took quite an effort for them back in 2001 when they set up their gear for 4 channel SD multicast of NCAA tourney rather than HD as "usual".

JunkyardDogg

11-29-06, 01:03 AM

Monday Night Football was carried by both ESPN and by THE CW Seattle. They broadcast in 1080i and had the ESPNHD feed, but with no DD5.1. So you're telling me that a CW affiliate in Seattle can get the feed, but our CBS affiliate cannot. Its because CC is a cheap piece of sh*t and I look forward to new ownership at that station. They have fallen behind the last couple years as far as technology goes and hopefully new owners will understand that.

Nitewatchman

11-29-06, 04:06 PM

Sorry I didn't have time to respond to this one last night.

[The mood of what I've written below may appear cynical or bitter, but please don't take it that way.

It's not that ...

I would contend, as I have in the past, that WLWT has always cared about HD.

Always is a long time -- If you mean since the time WLWT-DT first put a DTV signal on the air, "allways" in their case dates back to Feburary 1998.

WLWT-DT didn't have NBC HD when I first started watching HD in 2001, even though there was some of it available. If I recall and understood correctly, at that time they didn't want to spend the $ to pass through NBC HD prior to Early 2002 as my understanding is, prior to that time, NBC wasn't providing(for "free") the necessary equipment to its affiliates to pass through the NBC HD feed.

WCPO-DT/WKRC-DT OTOH broadcast HD as early as 1998, including for the first HD broadcast in U.S. - The Glenn Shuttle Launch. WXIX-DT came on the air in late 2000(broadcasting 1080i), but of course the best Fox did was SD widescreen(or "ED" for enhanced definition depending upon "semantics") until Fox went HD in Fall 2004.

We also had several years of BIG HD productions from WKRC-DT for WEBN fireworks(2000~2003), and of course a couple of UC HD games from WXIX-DT. WKRC-DT also ran the syndicated Paramount "HDOne" movie package -- They didn't HAVE to air those in HD(which at the time were run at a different time than the SD versions), but they did .....

Now, don't get me wrong here --- I'm not saying WLWT-DT doesn't care, and I do agree with you they are doing a fine job with DTV/HD, currently -- I'm just trying to point out that IMO, I think you are going a little too far with some of your comments - which doesn't quite seem fair to me.

I'm just trying to point out that we do have one station around here that knows what they are doing!! :)

There's more than one of them.

I've been doing this for 5 years now, and I can tell you they've *ALL* had their share of problems. For the *most* part I don't think much of anything that has occured can really be attributed with any certianity to whether or not any given station "cares" about HD or not.

Instead, I think it's more about running a business and the bottom line and that this DTV/HD "stuff" is still the new kid on the block --- I'm not making excuses for them, but how that "works out" for any given station/station owner can vary. Also keep in mind the same staff that once only had the analog station to worry about currently has both an analog and digital station to take care of, and that it costs more $$$$$$$ to operate both stations vs. one .....

Although, If you've been observing this for a while -- I think it's pretty obvious that over the last year or two things *ARE* really starting to get better from all stations in the area -- but I don't really think we're going to see them at their best until after analog shut off ....

You have to understand, this DTV/HD thing is a big, costly endeavor for broadcasters, one which so far hasn't proved to offer much of a return on their investment. They don't get a check everytime Best Buy/etc sells an HD set.

concerning WLWT, you also have to keep in mind they were the first station In Cincinnati to go "digital" - I'm not talking about the digital station here -- I'm talking about the gear for the "analog" station ....

Their digital signal has been by far the most reliable, most consistantly high quality, and least problem-ridden in the region.

Most reliable -- hmmm ... What DTV signal in the area isn't reliable ?

Which reminds me -- WLWT-DT was actually off the air much of Spring/Summer and early Fall 2002 -- That was for good reason, because not only did they replace their DTV transmitter, but the entire top 1/2 of Their Tower(Which WCET-TV/DT+WGUC-FM also transmit from) was on the ground for many months for strengthening in order to support the permanent, DTV antennas for WLWT-DT and WCET-DT hi-power operation.

During all those months, the analog stations(WLWT/WCET) operated at low power from lower antenna heights, obviously so I would assume for many OTA viewers. They did occasionally fire up the DTV transmitter during that time with a temporary setup from a lower antenna height, but as I recall, for the first week or so in fall 2002 for new NBC HD programs I beleive had to tune to then Dayton NBC HD affiliate, WKEF-DT Dayton, as WLWT-DT was off the air. Note : all the networks greatly expanded their HD programming in Fall 2002, partly I believe due to a "sort of" request for more HD programming from then FCC Chairman Powell ...

Most "consistantly High quality" -- I don't necessarily disagree with that, but that's a little difficult for me to "quantify", especially as it can be quite a subjective thing. Certianly, prior to early 2002, folks here weren't too happy about not being able to watch NBC HD(there WAS no other NBC digital station on air in the area prior to Early feb 2002, when WKEF-DT first came on air), what little of it there was at the time --- and, at the time, if you were missing "The tonight show" in HD, you were missing a lot of the HD that was available ......

I will say that IMO NBC HD quality now (and since about Summer 2004) is not as good during bandwidth demanding portions of programming originating from 1080i HD video as was the case during such events as 2002 Winter Olympics HD coverage from HDnet/NBC and 2002~04 Triple crown. I dunno if much of that has anything to do with WLWT-DT or the multicasting of weatherplus, as I suspect, since about Summer 2004, it's been more of a NBC issue - which oddly enough seems to vary a bit depending upon the venue involved ... In this regard, I think It will definitely be interesting to see how the game looks tomorrow night ...

Although, I also think currently WDTN-DT has very *slightly*(very slightly - hardly noticable difference really) fewer MPEG2 compression artifacts during bandwidth demanding portions of NBC HD programming sourced from 1080i HD video(mostly HD sports) than is the case from WLWT-DT.

Least Problem ridden -- Let's see --- I don't actually keep a list of all the problems which have occured that I've noticed, but I think WBDT-DT+WSTR-DT would probably be slightly higher on that list than WLWT-DT .... No real surprise there, since, for instance they were among the last commercial stations in the area to make it to air with digital, and, later than that(fall 2004) the last stations in the area to add the equipment necessary for HD from WB, and as you know both stations are currently doing fine passing through CW or MyTV HD ....

It's likely a little easier(and much less expensive) to make your HD equipment purchasing decisions after 1,000(or more) other stations have already done so vs. what the DTV "pioneer" stations had to deal with back in 98~99 ....

Just a hypothetical situation --- Imagine for instance paying a high 6 figure sum for a buggy HD encoder in 98 which for many years served only a handful of viewers(literally), and then having to make the decision on when/whether or not to upgrade that equipment to better stuff in say, 2005 or 2006 vs. waiting say a couple more years until analog shut off when in some cases more of your viewers(and more importantly perhaps - your clients+your "bottom line") might even benefit from even BETTER equipment that may be available in the future ....

When was the last time they missed a switch to HD? (I can't remember it ever happening).

It has happened, but they certianly have pretty much been on top of things concerning providing NBC HD .....

They've been passing 5.1 audio for as long as I can remember.

WLWT-DT has been doing DD 5.1 For about 1 or 2 years, can't presently remember which .. Think it was late Nov or December 2005, it was posted about somewhere back in this thread ....

If I recall correctly, WCET-DT was first to send DD 5.1 In Cincinnati, WCVN-DT around the same time or not much later, and both WXIX-DT and WSTR-DT had DD 5.1 before WLWT-DT ... WDTN-DT (then ABC affiliate) Dayton was the first commerical station in the area with DD 5.1 audio in Early 2003, not too long after they first signed on in mid January 2003 ..

Anyway, hopefully the HD relay goes problem-free for WLWT on Thursday, and lets hope for a Bengals HD victory on Thursday!

Absolutely ....

Nitewatchman

11-29-06, 08:15 PM

Quick update to last post ....

When was the last time they missed a switch to HD? (I can't remember it ever happening).

Right now .... As of 8:15pm The Christmas Special from Rockafeller Center is HD from WDTN-DT, SD from WLWT-DT (it's 16x9 so it's letterboxed and pillarboxed) ...

update: As of 8:37pm, WLWT-DT now has NBC HD up ... Not sure exactly when they caught it ...

-------------------

Update #2:

Oh, BTW -- According to Kieswetter's Blog the delayed broadcasts of tomorrow night's NBC lineup will NOT be in HD on WLWT-DT .... Figured most folks here already had figured that out, but since I don't think it's been mentioned yet -- "just in case" ....

Personally --- As I'd already planned, I will of course be watching the game on WLWT-DT and recording HD "ER" from WDTN-DT as TSC mentioned he would be doing earlier .... You really can't beat the OTA HD situation in most portions of the Cincy/Dayton area, given the sticks in these two markets are so close together!

Sea Ray

11-30-06, 09:26 AM

Personally --- As I'd already planned, I will of course be watching the game on WLWT-DT and recording HD "ER" from WDTN-DT as TSC mentioned he would be doing earlier .... You really can't beat the OTA HD situation in most portions of the Cincy/Dayton area, given the sticks in these two markets are so close together!

Is this tricky since the broadcast antennas are in opposite directions from Middletown? How do you receive both at the same time? I assumed you'd have to rotate your antenna in order to receive both.

terryfoster

11-30-06, 10:21 AM

Nitewatchman

11-30-06, 01:12 PM

Is this tricky since the broadcast antennas are in opposite directions from Middletown? How do you receive both at the same time? I assumed you'd have to rotate your antenna in order to receive both.

No, it's not really tricky. I do have a rotor on my main antenna setup(which I usually use for Cincinnati), but I don't use the rotor very often except for "DX'ing" more distant signals from beyond Cincy/Dayton when signal propagation conditions allow.

I also have a seperate antenna side-mounted to tower and aimed at Dayton -- There are seperate feedlines(coax) coming form both antennas, and going to receivers/devices in different rooms via various splitters. I use A/B switch(es) before receiver(s) to select which antenna is used with which receiver at any given time.

Oh, BTW -- note that I'm not actually "In" Middletown(although I do have Middletown address - couldn't think of anything better to put in the profile info) and am instead quite a bit North, right on Butler/Montgomery county line between Middletown+Germantown.

Directional antennas (which are often a good idea in terms of signal, interference+multipath "rejection" in directions they are not aimed ) usually work best when they are aimed at the stations you desire to receive, signals off the sides(especially so) and back are GREATLY "detioriated" in terms of signal strength and multipath echoes. They will also of course pick up any co or adjacent channel/etc "interference" relating to any "off target" channel your trying to receive, but with any problem "interference" issues involved coming in from the direction they are aimed, which in some cases can cause problems .... (if that makes sense, I can't seem to come up with the best words to accurately explain that at the momment ...)

That's not saying it isn't sometimes possible to receive a signal "well enough" off the "back side" of a directional antenna as I believe Terry is reporting is working for him - but it probably does not usually work very well, and you certianly can not count on it -- In other words, I would not feel comfortable recommending that as a viable solution, since there's a very good chance it won't work very well.

Now, also If one get's very lucky(I'm not here, I have tried it), it is sometimes possible to connect two directional antennas aimed in different directions together -- such as with a 2-way splitter used backwards, then using a single coax run to the receiver(s) -- HOWEVER, it's really all about luck and generally isn't the way to "do it" as the antennas are out of phase --- or in other words, "bad" (multipath laden/etc) signals coming in off the back/side of one antenna are "mixed in" with the "good" signal coming in from the direction the antenna is aimed and can cause problems in a unpredicatable manner for station(s) on any given channel/frequency you're trying to receive. For example, you might get lucky enough that it might work just fine on a couple of channels/stations, but not others, or you might notice things work fine when the wind isn't blowing, but you end up with a royal mess of "dropouts" on some stations when the wind picks up, or a plane flies overhead due to dynamic multipath conditions, exacerbated by the "out of phase" antenna setup ...

Update: Oh, almost forgot --- Also, there IS another viable option --- something called the CEA-909 "smartenna" interface which allows a receiver which supports it to automatically "control" and adjust an antenna for best reception from any given station in any given direction -- the specially designed antenna does not use a rotor, and instead(basically) is designed such that parts of the antenna itself are directly, and automatically "modifed" for best reception of any given station you tune to, in any given direction. Unfortunetly however, there are few receivers(only 1 I've heard of, a Sylvania STB) and few antennas(only one I know of so far from an outfit called "DXantenna") out there yet which support it. -- One drawback to this is, you would need a seperate "smartenna" for each receiver if you wanted to recieve multiple stations -- such as say both Dayton+Cincinnati stations at the same time on seperate receivers/tuners.

nees1212

11-30-06, 02:10 PM

Anyone know if the Bengals-Ravens' game will be broadcast in HD by wlwt tonight? I know it will be on NFL Network.

terryfoster

11-30-06, 02:16 PM

Anyone know if the Bengals-Ravens' game will be broadcast in HD by wlwt tonight? I know it will be on NFL Network.

You may want to read up this page of the thread for your answer.

nees1212

11-30-06, 02:43 PM

You may want to read up this page of the thread for your answer.

Oops. :D I read back a few posts, but didn't go back to the top of the page. Sorry.

jdhughes63

11-30-06, 02:59 PM

WLWT must really be trying to undo some bad publicity. Did you catch the ad in today's Enquirer saying they are definitely carrying the game and it will be in HD despite what 3rd party TV programs are saying. Also another article in the same paper talking about the TW / NFL Channel negotiations.

JunkyardDogg

11-30-06, 10:38 PM

I think the game looks pretty good, there was a couple of times the cameras looked like they didn't have the color adjusted right, but overall I am enjoying the broadcast. I am noticing that there are less motion artifacts in this broadcast when compared to Sunday Night Football, which leads me to believe NBC has some problems with its national distribution system. Overall, credit to WLWT for getting this game in HD for us OTA viewers and HD viewers.

terryfoster

11-30-06, 10:57 PM

Seriously, the NFL network picture was far better than the CBS or NBC pictures. It looked a lot more like what I have to expect from a 720p broadcast.

Although I'm not sure I've seen as many water droplets on the camera lens during a rainy game.

Thanks WLWT for making this happen.

R_Willis

11-30-06, 11:22 PM

jim tressler

12-01-06, 11:09 AM

i agree - sound was better on nfl network - however hd lite was in full effect from directv on the nfl net version

Nitewatchman

12-01-06, 07:29 PM

there was a couple of times the cameras looked like they didn't have the color adjusted right

I noticed that as well -- colorimetry seemed off for a couple of sideline cameras but,then again I sort of ended up liking the deeper shade of orange from those cams ...

In a way though, it was sort of cool seeing the color balance change a bit when they switched cameras, didn't bother me any ... I was going to switch to the NFL Network SD feed via E* to see what that looked like during the game, but never got around to it ... Did watch part of their pregame, though and it certianly looked better than last weeks game, which looked quite soft to me via E* SD ...

Pretty much agree with others comments -- Really, I think the Sunday Night NBC Games have looked REALLY good as well EXCEPT for those "lossy-compression like artifacts" .....

Anyhow Great job NFL Network+WLWT-DT and Bengals ...

swartzy

12-02-06, 11:42 PM

Game looked good on WLWT 5-1. Crisp sharp pictures. Very little mpeg artifacts. Colors looked a "tad" soft to me, not super vibrant (rain may have caused this).

I also checked out WLWT via Directv's HD locals (chan5) and NFL network HD feed via Directv (chan95).

5-1 looked the best overall. Sound was a bit better on the NFL HD channel.

Well sure the picture looked best on 5-1... you're not going to get any better than that w/o being there.

I watched it on 95 (didn't have an OTA antenna at the time) and I was pleasantly surprised given the ESPN HD highlights I saw of the Thanksgiving game looked awful.

ATM

12-04-06, 03:28 PM

ENOUGH WITH THE CHILDISH BICKERING ABOUT WHO ARE GOOD TEAMS AND WHAT ARE GOOD GAMES!

Remember, opinions are like *ssholes, everybody has one.

FYI, guy in the office next to me has a bunch of opinions and no *sshole

jimp2244

12-05-06, 09:41 PM

Is it just me or does WHIO-DT have a multicast channel up, 7-2 "WHIO-SD"? It is showing up on my TV but there doesn't seem to be any content on it whenever I have checked.

I watch all of the HD Bengals games that are on CBS on WHIO-DT rather than WKRC-DT because the picture is noticeably better (less pixelation). I hope WHIO doesn't have any grand multicasting plans.

barhoram

12-06-06, 10:47 AM

Hi All,

A forum member suggested I post a link to my Cincinnati based Home Theater Build thread on this forum.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=629571

Right now, the room is about 85% done. The big remaining items are carpet for the theater and stage and tile for the lobby area. To keep this a bit on topic, the current HDTV sources are at HTPC with Windows Media Center and an HD-TIVO...both funtctional at this point.

Feel free to ask any theater related questions in my Build thread. Anyone who would like an informal tour of the theater to get ideas or just take a look, just shoot me a PM. I'm in West Chester.

Andrew

Nitewatchman

12-06-06, 01:23 PM

Is it just me or does WHIO-DT have a multicast channel up, 7-2 "WHIO-SD"? It is showing up on my TV but there doesn't seem to be any content on it whenever I have checked.

We should probably be discussing this in Dayton thread, but no it's not just you.

WHIO-DT used to multicast a SD digtal simulcast of the analog station on 7-2 (just like WDTN-DT does currently), but quit doing that a year or two ago -- Since then, occasionally a "blank" 7-2 (WHIO-SD) pops up from them from time to time, don't know if this time around it involves anything "new" or not.

BTW, I responded to your PM a couple of nights ago, so you might want to check your PM's if you haven't received an email notifaction for those responses/etc.

jdhughes63

12-10-06, 08:31 AM

According to Zap2It listings, we are once again treated to the Bengals in SD by CBS this afternoon. I hope that is wrong like last week and it truly is in HD. Let's hope the good bowl hames are in HD.

DrDon

12-10-06, 09:27 AM

Don't forget this (http://www.gribblenation.net/nflmaps/ ) site when it comes to checking for HD NFL games. He's been pretty accurate, though you can never account for last-minute changes, technical problems, etc. You can also find the maps stickied to the top of the Programming forum.

Doc

jdhughes63

12-10-06, 12:01 PM

That site confirmed my fears. The Bengals are once again in SD.

tsc

12-10-06, 12:45 PM

Yep, blame Oakland for the SD (same reason for the SD Cleveland game). Luckily I was able to see the Bengals on the Thursday night game before I took off for my Bahamas vacation. Just got back, and I had almost forgot how nice HD is. :)

Too bad the game will be in SD -- but I will still watch while switching to 45 in Dayton during commercials. Of course the 4PM games on CBS and FOX will be in HD, too.

jdhughes63

12-10-06, 12:58 PM

You are correct. Both the CBS late game and the FOX single game are in HD. CBS has 5 early games and can only pony up 2 in HD. Must be a money issue. I would imagine that the HD truck and all the trimmings are worth more than I care to know.

jim tressler

12-10-06, 08:13 PM

Its called CBS being cheap.. fox does it..

DrDon

12-10-06, 08:27 PM

Ok, gotta stick up for my employer, if only briefly. CBS built out an entire HD network long before FOX did. Spent a fortune because all the gear was brand new. Just like HDTVs cost a small fortune in 2000, so did the distribution gear. They put dishes and receivers in for every single affiliate. Fox, meanwhile, bet the farm on a MUCH cheaper 480p delivery system. Didn't work. Of the Big Four, Fox was last to do regular HD. As such, they had the benefit of technology and methodology that wasn't around when NBC, ABC and CBS did their build-outs. And lower prices. In a nutshell, Fox split the same pipe CBS uses into multiple, reduced rate, HD signals. Even if CBS wanted to do the same thing, it would require installing new gear - AGAIN - at every single affiliate. Cheaper than it was during the first build-out, but hard to justify just for a few hours on Sunday afternoon. They'll get there. But you can't expect them to dole out a gazillion dollars AGAIN ..for the same thing they just shelled out for. Especially when, right now, there's no additional return on revenue. NBC and ABC also cannot distribute more than 2 HD pathways simultaneously, at present. They will get there. But it's not because they're cheap.

And, to be honest, they COULD have reimbursed me for my rental car in Nashville, last month, but nooooooooo. <G> So, when we DO get more NFL games in HD on CBS, please remember that good ol' Doc "contributed" around $400 to the cause.

Doc

jim tressler

12-11-06, 10:32 AM

good points doc.. but i still say cheap... why... because I am a disgruntled browns fan that wants to see the clowns in hd more than 3 times all year!!

DrDon

12-11-06, 10:36 AM

but i still say cheap...Welllll.. I can't exactly refute THAT :p

DiamondD

12-12-06, 03:11 PM

jspicoli

12-12-06, 04:22 PM

I believe it is somewhat correct. Through the new MPEG4 receiver, I believe you can get HD locals w/out OTA... Keep in mind, w/ DirecTV's track record of compressing their hd channels, I would not be confident you will get AS GOOD of quality as you would get OTA. I live very close to you in Lakeside Park and get every channel quite easily OTA and have no desire to let DirecTV screw my locals up.

jimp2244

12-12-06, 04:53 PM

For the last year and a half I have been getting the locals via an OTA here in Florence, KY, about 15 miles south of Cincy.
I just got off the phone with a DirecTV cutomer service lady.
She says that the Cincy market is now up to receive the local HD affiliates without an OTA.
Is this true?
Because I went through the next steps with her, and she said I had to upgrade my dish and HD receiver. The dish was going to be $99 and I never got to the cost of a new receiver. I balked at having to pay anything considering I was not getting the full flavor for the $10.99 I was already paying.
After some haggling, I was able to get the new dish and receiver free of charge and they are giving me 4 months of credit for the HD Pak.

So this gist of this post, is DirecTV airing the local Cincy affiliates in HD now, w/o having to use a OTA?

It has been a while since I have posted here, and 6 months or so ago and there was some banter that HD was going to be expanding into other markets.

Hopefully the nfo they gave me was correct. Is it?`

I'm not a DirecTV customer so can't comment for sure on the availability of HD locals via DirecTV. However, based on what others have been saying around here, it would appear that that is correct.

My question to you is, why would you want to pay a monthly fee for something that you already are getting for free? Not only that, but the best picture quality will always come from OTA. DirecTV is taking the OTA feed and recompressing it to mpeg4 in order to squeeze more channels into their limited bandwidth. This results in a definate loss of quality.

Are you having issues with your OTA reception? If so, there are many people here that would be willing to help you with that. I just don't see how it can be worth it to pay $10 a month or whatever it is when you get something better (OTA) for free.

R_Willis

12-12-06, 05:03 PM

Directv (Cincinnati) locals are currently available thru the dish and have been for a few months now. You need the new 5lnb AT9 dish and one of the newer receivers like the H20.

I'm getting them.

Still prefer the quality of my OTA stations however.

Bill R (# 2)

12-12-06, 06:38 PM

Directv (Cincinnati) locals are currently available thru the dish and have been for a few months now. You need the new 5lnb AT9 dish and one of the newer receivers like the H20.

Still prefer the quality of my OTA stations however.

Yes, I know what you mean. DirecTV's MPEG4 Cincinnati HD locals look like crap (compared to OTA). Word is that they are starting to enable the OTA tuners (at least on the HR20s) on the west coast.

jim tressler

12-12-06, 06:46 PM

i am about to take the plunge with the hr20 - depending on when its in stock.. i would not think of doing it without ota -but now that ota is around the corner, I may bite!

as far as the quality - I have not seen the mpeg4 stuff yet.. but I hear they are ok.. thats a subjective statement though and everyones milage will vary!!

R_Willis

12-12-06, 06:57 PM

Don't get me wrong, the Directv HD locals aren't THAT bad, but there is definatley a difference. OTAs are much more crisp, vibrant, and clear (and they should be since the signal has a few less levels of encoding/compression).

I had always paid the $5 for directv locals since I had directv anyway, so.... You get the HDs if you pay the $5 locals fee.

I'm closer to Dayton and pick their stuff up a lot better/reliable via OTA antenna then the Cincinnati stations. So having the HD locals (cincy) thru Directv is good insurance.

Like others have mentioned, getting both Cincy/Dayton locals is nice, sometimes there are different sporting events available to these 2 markets.

jim tressler

12-12-06, 07:29 PM

robert - is your install set up yet? are you getting the h20 or hr20?

R_Willis

12-12-06, 07:45 PM

robert - is your install set up yet? are you getting the h20 or hr20?

Yeah, has been for some time.

Using the standard receiver (non-DVR). It's the H20-100 with a AT9 5lnb dish.

There are two versions of the H20; -100 and -600.

-100
*runs cooler
*more reliable
*faster menu system
*tad larger
*blue LEDs

-600
*supposedly better OTA reception
*better with HDMI synch
*slightly smaller
*green LEDs
*slower menu system

DiamondD

12-12-06, 07:45 PM

R_Willis

12-12-06, 07:49 PM

How does the locals in HD cmpare to what they give you in the ESPNHD channels?
Similar or worse.

My take would be the directv HD locals are of similiar or better quality, probably better. Not worse for sure.

A lot of people are really slamming the HD picture quality of ESPN/2 right now. It seems as though Directv may or may not be the problem, as many cable users are also experiencing the bad picture quality. Just watching a hockey game on HDNet vs a football game on ESPN you can see the BIG difference, and yes I know HDnet uses 1080 vs ESPN's 720, but still!

swartzy

12-13-06, 12:46 PM

Interesting, they didnt mention a fee for getting the locals. I mainly have the HD pak for 10 dollars as to get ESPN and 2.
Where my OTA is, I can pull in Channel 5 easily but 9 and 12 are very sketchy.
Im in a family room and the OTA is in a window well.
How does the locals in HD cmpare to what they give you in the ESPNHD channels?
Similar or worse.

There's no fee for the HD locals... just like there's no fee for the SD locals either... they just raised the price of the Total Choice package and included it at some point in the past couple years.

I personally don't have an issue w/ ESPN, or ESPN2. I haven't seen a drop off in quality since I've had them (October). However... a friend of mine has complained about TW's ESPN/2 drop in quality but said D* still looked good.

The local HD channels are OK. I have an OTA antenna and switching back and forth I can see a difference... but it seems to depend on the show and the network. CBS isn't very crisp while FOX is better... especially NFL on FOX.

My OTA installation was simple though... I stuck it in my attic and it worked. If it were something more difficult then I probably would've stuck w/ the HD locals from D* as I really didn't want another device hanging off my house.

If you don't need the HD package (ESPN/2, TNT HD, HDNET and so forth) then I would stick w/ OTA (provided you have a strong signal even in bad weather) if you already have it... or go w/ it when the HR20 OTA is enabled.

I want ESPN/2 though... so I have to pay for the HD package and HD locals are free either way...

APorter

12-13-06, 03:13 PM

Anybody know which HD box (non-DVR) Time Warner is giving out now? My father-in-law just purchased a HDTV and needs to upgrade his box. I want to make sure I order for him the right cable (HDMI or HDMI/DVI) from Monoprice. I've tried calling Time Warner all day at the three numbers I have and get nothing but busy tone.

edit- Got through to Time Warner just as I finished typing. Is the Pace 550 or SA 3250 the better box. I seem to recall the Pace was considered the best over a year ago.

Thanks

jimp2244

12-13-06, 06:07 PM

tbenson81

12-13-06, 06:29 PM

The Pace is much better than the 3250

terryfoster

12-13-06, 07:32 PM

They don't provide a cable for connectivity??

It's been generally my experience that they provide a component cable and not a DVI/HDMI cable which the OP seemed to be trying to figure out if they needed a HDMI or DVI connector on their cable.

mikemikeb

12-13-06, 07:45 PM

APorter

12-14-06, 11:16 AM

APorter, I doubt that your dad-in-law will notice any difference between a component and HDMI or HDMI-DVI connection, even with HD content. Save the HDMI port(s) for the upconverting DVD or Blu-Ray/HD-DVD player.

When I picked up another HD-DVR box at Tri-County a couple of weeks ago they were out of the component cables and remotes, so my options are to buy him a HDMI cable or build him some component cables. The price of the HDMI cables are so cheap at Monoprice that it's just easier to purchase from them. They have a sale on 3ft. HDMI/DVI cable for $1.93 regular price was $17.99. His tv has two HDMI inports so one for the cable box and one for the upconverting DVD player. He will never have anything else hooked to tv.

Should note that I had to make a purchase from Monoprice, so this was just added to the cart.

I will tell him to ask for the Pace box.

ShaunAtk

12-15-06, 08:04 AM

jim tressler

12-15-06, 08:19 AM

wkrc is picking the game up - my guess is no hd

APorter

12-15-06, 09:02 AM

Any news on whether or not the Monday night game will be broadcast locally in HD? I don't have ESPNHD, and don't want to have to pay for it, but I am having several guests and want to show off my HDTV

Call Time Warner on Monday morning and order the HD Tier. Call back Tuesday morning to cancel and you'll only be billed for the one day.

terryfoster

12-15-06, 09:06 AM

Call Time Warner on Monday morning and order the HD Tier. Call back Tuesday morning to cancel and you'll only be billed for the one day.

And possibly some kind of a turn off fee, but still beats keeping a tier you don't want or need.

APorter

12-15-06, 09:39 AM

Never been charged a turn off fee when I've done this to watch a HBO or Showtime Special. Call them and tell you woud like to try but not sure if it's worth it since they will be getting rid of one of the channels in the tier when INHD and INHD2 combine January 1st.

jimp2244

12-15-06, 11:04 AM

Haha. This is funny. A good idea though to pick up the HD tier for a day.

The whole thing would be a lot easier if WKRC would just figure out how to send the HD feed from ESPN. I'd be happy to do it for them.

jdhughes63

12-15-06, 03:12 PM

Any news on whether or not the Monday night game will be broadcast locally in HD? I don't have ESPNHD, and don't want to have to pay for it, but I am having several guests and want to show off my HDTV
TW will have the game on in HD on 975 ESPN1-HD. It's worth the price of the HD tier if you have invested in an HD TV. You get ESPN1 as well as HDNET's two channels and INHD's two channels. Granted those four channels don't always have interesting programming but at times they have good HD movies and they now carry Star Trek: Enterprise in HD.

naumanmy

12-15-06, 03:19 PM

Does any one know if TWC has any unencrypted HDTV channels as I have their cable service without a box to the Cable ready TV. If I hook up a TV tuner in my HTPC that can do unencrypted QAM, will that card pickup any channels?
thanks

R_Willis

12-15-06, 03:48 PM

There's no fee for the HD locals... just like there's no fee for the SD locals either... they just raised the price of the Total Choice package and included it at some point in the past couple years.

I apologize for the mis-information above. I forgot, Directv did change the price structuring. At first, locals were $4.99 or whatever. Now, they are included in the "total choice" with a price increase from the original price on TC package.

I personally don't have an issue w/ ESPN, or ESPN2. I haven't seen a drop off in quality since I've had them (October). However... a friend of mine has complained about TW's ESPN/2 drop in quality but said D* still looked good.

Watching football on ESPN/ESPN2 (via Directv) sure isn't the same as watching it on Fox/ABC/CBS via OTA HD in my honest opinion.

I want ESPN/2 though... so I have to pay for the HD package and HD locals are free either way...

Agreed. Whether ESPN/ESPN2 and some of the others are of the same quality as local OTA HD, doesn't matter in the end to me. For $10 I get some more HD, and more HD sports. It's worth it to me too.

jimp2244

12-15-06, 04:06 PM

I already posted this in the Dayton thread, but since I know many here tune into WHIO-DT to watch HD because the PQ is better than WKRC... well that's officially gone. WHIO now has a weather companion channel (7 Weather Now) on 7-2. It looks like the content is provided by AccuWeather.com which in my opinion is one of the most INaccurate weather services.

However, as I have said before, for a 1080i HD channel, if they insist on a subchannel, I think these weather subchannels at least do have some utility, and their very low motion (mostly static or mostly static graphics) help keep most of the bandwidth on the primary HD channel.

shannon50

12-15-06, 05:31 PM

Anyone with dish network getting sat. 129 ok?

tbenson81

12-15-06, 06:42 PM

Does anyone know what Directv and Dish' installation policy is? Their websites are kind of vague. I want them to mount the dish and then run new RG6 to the Great Room and the Master Bedroom.

Right now I have RG59 and that wont work with Sattelite.

Do these installers know how to fish cable and all that stuff or will they even do that with basic installation? Thanks!

Tony

mikemikeb

12-15-06, 09:50 PM

When I picked up another HD-DVR box at Tri-County a couple of weeks ago they were out of the component cables and remotes, so my options are to buy him a HDMI cable or build him some component cables. The price of the HDMI cables are so cheap at Monoprice that it's just easier to purchase from them. They have a sale on 3ft. HDMI/DVI cable for $1.93 regular price was $17.99. His tv has two HDMI inports so one for the cable box and one for the upconverting DVD player. He will never have anything else hooked to tv.
If you bought two of those, let's hope that the cable box and DVD player have a DVI and not an HDMI output. You should leave the second HDMI open if he ever wants a Blu-Ray HD movie player, which might not have a red laser for DVD playback. Such a device will have an HDMI output, and it should be used (long story as to why).

You probably already have component video cable in your house and don't even know it.

You know the yellow, red, and white set of cables you used to connect your VCR? Well, believe it or not, they all can pass video signals as well as similar-looking component cable, as they're made of the same material. Those color markers at the ends are used so that people don't, say, put a certain cable into the left audio on the VCR and then plug it into the video jack on the TV.

Since the composite cable system has a different color scheme than that of component cable, you'll have to make sure that the TV and cable box's cables are hooked up properly. You can use any cable management system you like. I prefer to use the "Red, White and Blue" method. In this scenario, the red cable goes in the red jack. Then the white cable goes into the blue jack. Get it? Red, White and Blue? Anyway, the yellow cable goes in the remaining, green jack. Now granted, this arrangement doesn't pass audio, but you would have used a separate wire or two for that, anyway.

The whole thing would be a lot easier if WKRC would just figure out how to send the HD feed from ESPN. I'd be happy to do it for them.
If WKRC has an unencrypted QAM256 generator, a Samsung DTB-H260F or similar QAM box, and a component video + stereo RCA input group on their HD control board, then it should be easy to provide the game in HD. Simply coordinate their dishes and HD receivers to get the ESPNHD signal. Then pass that signal to the QAM 256 generator, and convert it into 30mbps 720p MPEG-2, and "broadcast" it on, say, channel 71. Find a way to get the resulting signal onto one end of an RG-6 cable, and plug the other end into the Sammy. The Samsung will be plugged through component and stereo cables into the HD control board, the rear HD switch would be set to Y, Pb, Pr, and the rear resolution switch selected to 1080i. Perform a channel scan on the Sammy, and once channel 71 is found, then tune to it, and therefore output it to the control board in 1080i that the station can use for further encoding and transmission.

They could also output the signal from the QAM256 generator in 1080i and bypass the Sammy unit, as long as the HD control board could find and tune the 1080i signal.

WebHopperWeasel

12-16-06, 07:01 PM

The whole thing would be a lot easier if WKRC would just figure out how to send the HD feed from ESPN. I'd be happy to do it for them.

Hmmm.. I wonder who ever said that WKRC was not doing the monday nite game in HD? The intent is that the game WILL be in HD on monday nite. In fact all the gear is in and has been tested to work just fine.

So tune in to 12.1 OTA or watch it on your local cable / sat provider on WKRC.

:)

Weasel

Nitewatchman

12-16-06, 07:41 PM

The intent is that the game WILL be in HD on monday nite. In fact all the gear is in and has been tested to work just fine.

Good news, Indeed ... Thanks for letting us know ....

Hmmm.. I wonder who ever said that WKRC was not doing the monday nite game in HD?

Just for "the record", I don't believe anyone here said that ...

jdhughes63

12-16-06, 08:14 PM

jdhughes63

12-16-06, 08:29 PM

It should be noted that WKRC's own web site shows the game in SD
http://www.local12.com/content/tv_listings/default.aspx

WebHopperWeasel

12-16-06, 08:31 PM

Zap2It and TitanTV both show the Bengals Monday night game being in HD on Warner 975 and in SD on 912. These are common 3rd party TV Guides that the public uses. So they will not know the truth until they tune in Monday night.

It's too bad that WKRC can't let the correct information out to those that publish the programs. Of course those with OTA will try the HD first and then go to SD if it is not there.

None of the these types of TV Guides get this kind of thing correct. Local decisions on HD broadcast are local. Input to these types of guides happens many months prior and they don't ask the local stations their input on these types of things.

Just my opinion but historically it is has been a true statement.

Weasel

WebHopperWeasel

12-16-06, 08:32 PM

It should be noted that WKRC's own web site shows the game in SD
http://www.local12.com/content/tv_listings/default.aspx

If you look closely you will notice that the info comes from TitanTV.

See post above...

Weasel

jdhughes63

12-16-06, 08:44 PM

If you look closely you will notice that the info comes from TitanTV.

See post above...

Weasel
So where is the general public to go to get correct up to date information since we can't trust 3rd party publications and as you have pointed out the local TV stations opt out of current reporting and use 3rd party also.

WebHopperWeasel

12-16-06, 08:53 PM

So where is the general public to go to get correct up to date information since we can't trust 3rd party publications and as you have pointed out the local TV stations opt out of current reporting and use 3rd party also.

I don't have a good answer for that one.

Call the local station for these types of "SPECIAL" events.

Be nice and people will get you answers.

Weasel

JunkyardDogg

12-16-06, 09:52 PM

Bill R (# 2)

12-17-06, 11:51 AM

Thanks Weasel for the information, I am sure we all will be tuning in to the broadcast.

I just wanted to ask if WKRC found out why the HD feed has the green tint to it? Also, has the Harris Flexicoder been adjusted so the focus issue is resolved?

I plan on watching the game but I have given up on WRKC-DT to get HD broadcasts right. I'll watch it in HD on either WHIO-DT or ESPN-HD.

There is STILL the green tint problem (how many years have we been complaiining about that?) and the focus issue. BOTH of there problems are very evident if you switch between WKRC-DT and WHIO-DT. The other BIG problem that WKRC-DT can't seem to get resolved it the dropping to SD when going to an ad and then not going back to HD when the network feed starts again. I had been DVRing CBS-HD shows from WKRC-DT and just too many shows (especially Letterman's show) have that problem. Sometimes more than half of Letterman's show is SD.

I just hope that who ever buys WKRC does whatever it takes (more money, better equipment, kick some ass of the night engineer who is not closely watching the feed going out OTA) to fix WKRC-DT's HD problems.

microbob

12-17-06, 01:33 PM

I plan on watching the game but I have given up on WRKC-DT to get HD broadcasts right. I'll watch it in HD on either WHIO-DT or ESPN-HD.

There is STILL the green tint problem (how many years have we been complaiining about that?) and the focus issue. BOTH of there problems are very evident if you switch between WKRC-DT and WHIO-DT. The other BIG problem that WKRC-DT can't seem to get resolved it the dropping to SD when going to an ad and then not going back to HD when the network feed starts again. I had been DVRing CBS-HD shows from WKRC-DT and just too many shows (especially Letterman's show) have that problem. Sometimes more than half of Letterman's show is SD.

I just hope that who ever buys WKRC does whatever it takes (more money, better equipment, kick some ass of the night engineer who is not closely watching the feed going out OTA) to fix WKRC-DT's HD problems.

Not to mention the absents of DD 5.1 surround sound. WKRC-DT is the only station in cincinnati that doesn't have it.

jim tressler

12-17-06, 02:36 PM

WHIO is not showing the game.

I plan on watching the game but I have given up on WRKC-DT to get HD broadcasts right. I'll watch it in HD on either WHIO-DT or ESPN-HD.

mikemikeb

12-17-06, 11:44 PM

There is STILL the green tint problem (how many years have we been complaiining about that?) and the focus issue. BOTH of there problems are very evident if you switch between WKRC-DT and WHIO-DT.
Let's see what happens if you guys file complaints to the FCC stating that the quality of WKRC-DT's broadcasts aren't as good as NTSC for both of those reasons. :D

JunkyardDogg

12-18-06, 12:40 AM

^ I believe that is a bit drastic for our situation. I think it would be better for the station to work with viewers in resolving problems. If a complaint was made, I don't know what effect it would have.

While WKRC-DT has no DD5.1 and the picture issues, each station has its own problems. I too look forward to new ownership, however, I really don't know who is interested. Sinclair(I hope not, the station will be nothing if this happens), Gannett, Media General or possibly have CBS or FOX by the station. Who knows, but most will be better than Clear Channel.

Nitewatchman

12-18-06, 11:11 AM

Concerning the WKRC-DT slight "greenish tint" issue - In addition to what we see during programming vs. comparisions with other sources of CBS HD -- I should mention about a year and a half ago, I caught Color bars originating from the CBS HD feed that were up at the same time on both WKRC-DT and WHIO-DT --- but it was only up a short period before WKRC-DT switched to local or CBS SD feed, so I didn't get much of a chance to "study" it - However, I did get just get enough of a chance to notice the color bars were apparently "wrong" from WKRC-DT, and "right" from WHIO-DT (Being able to indivdually turn on R/G/B guns on direct-view CRT via a Service Menu function helped).

Again, I didn't get enough of a chance (or don't recall) to note any details or"specifics" concerning what I saw with those Color bars, but I'm wondering if, for some reason, its possible we aren't getting a "proper" ITU 709 HD Colorspace (or color "matrix") as we should be from WKRC-DT's 1080i service, at least during CBS HD programming.

The thing is(and why I haven't mentioned this before), during the programming(the "slight greenish tint" - especially noticable perhaps in darker areas and flesh tones) the Colorimetry perhaps doesn't seem to be as "far off" as occurs if, I've observed via other experiments if for example it was 601 "SD" (or NTSC) Colorspace we were getting from WKRC-DT's HD - But, nevertheless, I still wonder if it's possible some sort of mismatch in color "matrices" is occuring at WKRC-DT which may be causing these color decoding issues .... Especically perhaps given I suspect the differences for "Green" with 709 HD vs. say, 601 colorspace may, perhaps result in the most noticable mismatch ...

---------------

For those interested, here are a couple of links regarding 709 HD Colorspace+some issues which have arisen :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archive/index.php/t-675384.html

http://www.sigmadesigns.com/public/Support/chromaticity.html

Here's a graphic showing color bars with different color matrices (or "colorspace"), or conversions applied :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=32137

Nitewatchman

12-18-06, 11:45 AM

but most will be better than Clear Channel.

Well, I don't know about that, but I do know during the "process" of selling the station(s), or if/when an ownership transfer occurs, it *may* be considered a "good time" to do things such as upgrading equipment(or perhaps a good time for requests for new equipment to be submitted), new news sets/etc, and that is what I meant by any previous comment I made on this issue ...

Do remember, in addition to the not so good things, and obviously(IMO) good things regarding their Local news .... HD wise ... Clear Channel/ WKRC-DT has aired HUGE (expensive and $ losing) local HD productions of WEBN fireworks(2000~2003), and they also ran the HD versions of Paramounts HD-One syndicated Movie package .... They were also among the very first stations in the U.S. to put HD on the air ......

jimp2244

12-18-06, 12:12 PM

Hmmm.. I wonder who ever said that WKRC was not doing the monday nite game in HD? The intent is that the game WILL be in HD on monday nite. In fact all the gear is in and has been tested to work just fine.

So tune in to 12.1 OTA or watch it on your local cable / sat provider on WKRC.

:)

Weasel

Thanks! Good luck tonight and I hope everything goes well. This kind of thing (sending HD) is very important to those of us without cable or satellite.

Now if we can just get channel 25 or 38 to carry Reds games, I'd be all set!

Oh also, question:

Why don't you guys advertise this stuff? I mean, it's a big deal to your viewers that you'll be carrying HD for this game. WLWT did a great job with the NFL Network game, but they didn't do much to make it well know either. I would think you'd want people to be watching your HD channel instead of ESPN-HD...

Bill R (# 2)

12-18-06, 12:28 PM

Jeff,

I agree that WKRC has done some very good things concerning HDTV early on but they have fallen behind lately.

The thing that bothers me most is that they won't fix their problems, and in some cases, won't even "own up" to having one. The "green tint" issue is one. I can directly compare WHIO-DT and WCPO-DT on my LG HDTV (I can display them side by side). You can see the tint problem. I even offered to send a video capture of the screens to one of the engineers at the staion. He said "we don't have a green tint problem".

The other big problem that WKRC has that they won't fix (and won't "own up" to depending on who you talk to at the station) is the "drop to SD problem". This weekend I watched four HD programs that were recorded on my satellite receiver from WKRC-DT. All four of them had portions (after commercial breaks) that were in SD. Sometimes the SD lasted only 30 seconds or less (I guess that the "on duty" engineer caught it) but several, mainly Letterman, stayed in SD for much of the program. I know that it is "only TV" but IMHO WKRC still is not serious about HD. I don't know if is a management, staff, or money issue but it is still annoying (to viewers) and unprofessional to run a station like that. EVERY station in Cincinnati does a better job on HD than WKRC-DT does.

Nitewatchman

12-18-06, 02:53 PM

He said "we don't have a green tint problem".

"I did not have sexual relations with that woman!" ;)

tvnick

12-18-06, 02:54 PM

If WKRC has an unencrypted QAM256 generator, a Samsung DTB-H260F or similar QAM box, and a component video + stereo RCA input group on their HD control board, then it should be easy to provide the game in HD. Simply coordinate their dishes and HD receivers to get the ESPNHD signal. Then pass that signal to the QAM 256 generator, and convert it into 30mbps 720p MPEG-2, and "broadcast" it on, say, channel 71. Find a way to get the resulting signal onto one end of an RG-6 cable, and plug the other end into the Sammy. The Samsung will be plugged through component and stereo cables into the HD control board, the rear HD switch would be set to Y, Pb, Pr, and the rear resolution switch selected to 1080i. Perform a channel scan on the Sammy, and once channel 71 is found, then tune to it, and therefore output it to the control board in 1080i that the station can use for further encoding and transmission.

They could also output the signal from the QAM256 generator in 1080i and bypass the Sammy unit, as long as the HD control board could find and tune the 1080i signal.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps you don't understand that in a professional HDTV environment, signals are routed in HDSDI or ASI with embedded audio, not component outputs of home receivers. Those receivers need to be added to automation lists which run breaks, add bugs and ID's, among other things.

How would WKRC cover the ESPN promos and commercials?

How about genlock or reference? Receivers must be referenced to house. Why modulate and demodulate the signal?

The days of Master Control Switcher (what you call control boards) are nearly over. In these days of automation, few stations have an actual physical switcher for their HD channels. Most have virtual switchers which switch off a play list that can be over-ridden by a routher input.

The gist of this is that no television station would air an HD program using a home satellite receiver. WKRC will most likely be using a professional receiver to air the ESPN clean feed.

jimp2244

12-18-06, 03:18 PM

The days of Master Control Switcher (what you call control boards) are nearly over. In these days of automation, few stations have an actual physical switcher for their HD channels. Most have virtual switchers which switch off a play list that can be over-ridden by a routher input.

While this is true, if you've ever watched WKRC-DT, you'd see that it certainly appears that they DO manually switch, and whoever is working the controls seems to "fall asleep" quite often.

R_Willis

12-18-06, 05:10 PM

WHIO is not showing the game.

Shows up in my Directv guide data for tonight @ 8:30pm on channel 12.

Bill R (# 2)

12-18-06, 08:27 PM

The gist of this is that no television station would air an HD program using a home satellite receiver. WKRC will most likely be using a professional receiver to air the ESPN clean feed.

That may well be true but I'll take my DISH Network's ESPN-HD feed over WKRC-DT's OTA feed any time I can. I know that the WHOLE game will be in HD. There won't be a greenish tint (that WKRC won't even admit that it has).

Just watching the pre-game on ESPN-HD I seriously doubt that WKRC-DT OTA will look as good as ESPN-HD does (the picture is very, very good) tonight. WKRC still has that bandwidth eating piece of crap that they call the CW and as long as it is on they never will have a great HD picture (as least not as good as ESPN-HD is sending them).

jdhughes63

12-18-06, 08:38 PM

I don't see a green issue on WKRC. ESPN and WKRC have similar pictures. However, the sound is very dynamic on ESPN and very flat on WKRC.

Nitewatchman

12-18-06, 08:59 PM

The greenish tint issue was definitely there between 8~8:30pm during CBS HD from WKRC-DT, but I don't see it since they went to the ESPN HD feed --- It looks like it isn't there via the signal chain they are using for ESPN HD feed, but I can't say for sure as I don't have anything to compare it to, and it is a little more difficult to see in bright scenes such as a NFL game (although, there was quite a bit of "dark stuff" before the game and I didn't see it there either) .. ...

Hopefully, others can also comment who can do a good A/B comparsion ...

Just noticed the old 12 WKRC/"WKRC-DT Channel 31" ID bug in upper left ... I haven't seen that in a LONG time ....

JunkyardDogg

12-18-06, 09:57 PM

I agree with Nite, I was going to post earlier that I did not, thats right, did not see a green tint like on CBS programming. So WKRC engineers, please check your CBS feed and find where the picture is getting its green tint. It took WCPO forever to find their 'jaggies' issue, so I assume WKRC will take awhile also.

I will say the picture looks very good, I would say better than Fox and in line with CBS/NBC/ABC. I think the 1080i gives the best picture, but I have a 65" 1080i native display.

WHO DEY (No Who Dat, when are the Bengals gonna sue the Saints for that rip-off!)

JunkyardDogg

12-18-06, 11:23 PM

At 11:20 p.m. lost HD feed and then lost 12.1. I can decode 12.2, but that is it. Watching on analog now. It was nice while it lasted.

mikemikeb

12-18-06, 11:25 PM

Perhaps you don't understand that in a professional HDTV environment, signals are routed in HDSDI or ASI with embedded audio, not component outputs of home receivers. Those receivers need to be added to automation lists which run breaks, add bugs and ID's, among other things.

How would WKRC cover the ESPN promos and commercials?
Switch out of the ESPNHD programming input to the usual commercial-playing local input, like swiching inputs on a TV? Legal IDs can ve superimposed with something called "ChromaKey", or something else whose name I can't remember. It's easy to confuse the two names since they go similar things involved with superimposing.

Why modulate and demodulate the signal?
I based that post on the belief that they couldn't convert 720p to 1800i otherwise and that's why they couldn't air the HD games. Wrong and wrong, and I'm glad. Perhaps my guess of a method, no matter how low-tech, would work, but maybe not.

In the end, I just wanted the game to be in HD, and without a green cast. I'm glad that both applied.

It's pretty obvious that I'm an amateur at the TV biz.

mikemikeb

12-18-06, 11:26 PM

At 11:20 p.m. lost HD feed and then lost 12.1. I can decode 12.2, but that is it.
Have you tried rescanning?

jimp2244

12-19-06, 12:07 AM

Have you tried rescanning?

WKRC-DT lost picture and sound at around 6:30 to go in the 4th quarter. Every few seconds you'd hear ESPN audio come in and then drop out. Then "Late Show with David Letterman" audio came through (must have been a CBS promo or something from the CBS feed). This went on for several minutes. Eventually, SD ESPN feed came up with sound and then the flip to ESPN HD and then no more problems. When WKRC-DT lost picture I turned on TV #2 to analog 12 and it appeared unaffected.

As far as the picture was concerned, there was a bit of artifacting but I believe that was on ESPN's end. I think WKRC did a pretty good job with the picture given the 720p feed from ESPN which is generally not the best. It was no where near the quality of picture from NFL Network/WLWT at 1080i for the Bengals/Ravens game, but I am very happy that WKRC made the effort to get this done.

As for the sound, the ESPN feed had very low volume, which required viewers to turn the volume up considerably to be able to hear anything. When WKRC inserted the local commericals, however, you'd be blasted back by the extreme loudness in contrast to the game. We did get a warning though before the sound would get loud, as you could see the "switch" being flipped about 3-10 seconds before local commercials started (obvious feed switching from HD to SD).

Overall, I will give credit to WKRC for getting this done. I think some of the issues during the production, while I wish they didn't happen, are not too big a deal, and also somewhat understandable in a new, one-time undertaking such as this.

Just as a point of reference, here are the three major ongoing issues with WKRC, and whether or not they applied to this event:

1.) Green tint - NO. Did not see any evidence of this during the game.
2.) Missing HD Switches - NO. although the usual manual switching was evident, whoever was in control did not miss any switches that I noticed.
3.) Focus/blurr issue from encoder - YES. Did notice this, especially on scene or camera angle changes, as usual.

Bill R (# 2)

12-19-06, 10:55 AM

Jimp2244,

I agree with your 1st point. I did a side by side comparision between ESPN-HD and WKRC-DT and the grass was exactly the same shade and the flesh tones were the same.

I didn't watch that much of the game full screen from WKRC-DT (I did notice that the sound was flat compared to ESHN-HD) so I really can't comment on points two and three.

I do think that we need to give WKRC credit for carrying the game in HD and, hopefully, this might give them some clues as to where their "green tint" problem might be coming from when they broadcast CBS HD programs.

Nitewatchman

12-19-06, 11:03 AM

^Yep, and from what I could tell, FWIW, I agree with all 3 of jimp2244's points.

Overall, I thought the PQ was very good from WKRC-DT for the game, other than the focus issue(which really doesn't bother me too much and usually seem to occur mostly just for a short period after fast moving graphics were on the screen) -- although I certianly would have appreciated More bandwidth/lower MPEG2 compression ratio at times, In this regard, I thought the compression artifacts were generally Worse for the Sunday night game from NBC/WLWT-DT or WDTN-DT(WDTN-DT slightly better).

At 11:20 p.m. lost HD feed and then lost 12.1. I can decode 12.2, but that is it. Watching on analog now. It was nice while it lasted.

It came back around 11:22pm on 12.1, first audio, then video Looked like they probably had to do some "rebooting" of equipment ....

R_Willis

12-19-06, 11:30 AM

R_Willis

12-19-06, 11:32 AM

As for the sound, the ESPN feed had very low volume, which required viewers to turn the volume up considerably to be able to hear anything. When WKRC inserted the local commericals, however, you'd be blasted back by the extreme loudness in contrast to the game.

Actually I don't think the low sound was an ESPN problem. If you watched the ESPN feed the sound was very loud and much better. Somewhere in the feed/conversion/whatever, the sound evidently got butchered up. I think it was WKRCs fault, if I had to guess......

jim tressler

12-19-06, 11:41 AM

keep in mind the nfl net feed on wlwt a few weeks ago was low too.. as low as wkrc last night.. not sure, but it was lower

jim

tsc

12-19-06, 11:53 AM

I watched the game via E* on ESPNHD. I did however occasionally switch to WKRC to check out the quality. PQ was better than I expected it to be, but the audio obviously stunk, so 99% of my watching was on ESPNHD.

As far as how the Bengals played.. that's another story. :(

tsc

12-19-06, 11:56 AM

I'm not a TWC subscriber, so this doesn't really matter to me, but:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=771239

Looks like TWC might be getting ESPN2/HD near Xmas time. I know this thread refers to a local TWC affiliate and not TWC as a whole, but it might be a sign.....

I'm no longer a TWC subscriber either, one of the reasons I left for E* was TWC's lack of HD channels (ESPN2HD was on the top of my list). If they add it, great.. but I would not be surprised if the listed marked in that thread gets the channels, but not too many others. It's up to the local market to decide anyway.. I'd guess they'd remove INHD2 and put ESPN2HD in its place. If you TWC subs get it, congrats, it took long enough!

What I paid to TWC for all my services was still way too much ($190/month for TV/CableModem), so I'll continue to stick with E* on no commitment. :)

jimp2244

12-19-06, 12:05 PM

I didn't mean to infer that the low sound volume was ESPN's problem. It was WKRC's problem, but as has been said, I'm happy they carried the game in HD and that was definately something that I can "deal with" for a one-time event such as this.

dc10forlife

12-19-06, 12:30 PM

Do any of you who subscribe to Dish or DirecTV get FSN-Ohio in HD? It would be nice to get college basketball (mainly ACC and PAC-10 games) in HD. Are these games carried on FSN-Ohio-HD?

tsc

12-19-06, 01:01 PM

Do any of you who subscribe to Dish or DirecTV get FSN-Ohio in HD? It would be nice to get college basketball (mainly ACC and PAC-10 games) in HD. Are these games carried on FSN-Ohio-HD?

I don't know about DirecTV, but DishNetwork has not (yet) added RSN's in HD. Honestly, I'm not sure we'd get all that much from FSN Cincinnati in HD (unlike other regions).

Bill R (# 2)

12-19-06, 01:53 PM

Honestly, I'm not sure we'd get all that much from FSN Cincinnati in HD (unlike other regions).

According to a person that I talked to at FSN late this past summer there is no HD feed for FSN Cincinnati. He didn't know if FSN would be adding one. It would be nice if the satellite and cable companies would carry FSN Ohio but it could be a contract issue where they can not carry it in the Cincinnati DMA.

tvnick

12-19-06, 03:10 PM

[QUOTE=mikemikeb]Switch out of the ESPNHD programming input to the usual commercial-playing local input, like swiching inputs on a TV? Legal IDs can ve superimposed with something called "ChromaKey", or something else whose name I can't remember. It's easy to confuse the two names since they go similar things involved with superimposing.

Herein lies one of the biggest problems with HD and digital streams. With analog video, keying is very simple. With an HD stream, it is impossible. Many encoders take the stream to baseband, key, and upconvert. You'll notice some of the locals such as WPTO and KET still have no way to bug their HD streams, and others like WXIX could not do it for the longest times. Everything that television stations had perfected has changed drastically with HD. That green tint that most of you see (although I believe it is less than two degrees and 99.9% of viewers will not see it) could easily be changed in analog just by tweaking a proc amp or frame sync. In an HD stream it becomes an enormous problem because there are few adjustments on a receiver or encoder. Same with audio....it is embedded in the stream and is very difficult to process without spending boatloads of money with Dolby.

Hope I have helped.

Bubster

12-19-06, 05:52 PM

jimp2244

12-19-06, 06:12 PM

Dumb question time for me. I bought my elderly mother a 27" Westinghouse LCD HDTV for Christmas. I hooked up her DVD and cable box and all works as expected. This TV has a built in ATSC tuner so today I had the bright idea to hook the coax off the splitter to the tuner connection on the TV and let it scan for channels. To my surprise she can watch wcpo-hd, wkrc-hd, wxix-hd, wcet-hd just fine but wlwt-hd is no where to be found.

Anyone out there have any clue where I might find the HD version of wlwt on the warner cable by using the TV's built in tuner (not the digital cable box since she wont pay any more than she is now).

Thanks!

Cable doesn't use ATSC... did you mean:

1.) The TV has a QAM tuner and you pluged the coax from Time Warner into the TV
OR
2.) You used ATSC tuner to get those channels over-the air

I suppose a third possibility is that the TV has an ATSC tunner (but not QAM) and it used the coax as an antenna...

Over the air, I've foudn that WLWT-DT is, by a pretty substantial margin, the easiest to receive (or at least has been in my experience). When I was in Dayton, I always had no trouble getting WLWT-DT, could sometimes get WKRC-DT and WXIX-DT, but could never get WCPO-DT. If you're within the 275 loop or close to it, you should be able to get WLWT-DT with a simple indoor antenna.

If you're talking about QAM tuning through cable, then I'm pretty sure based on what I've heard around here that WLWT-DT is carried "in the clear" and you should be able to tune it (if you do have a QAM tuner). If you read back in this thread I believe the re-map channels have been posted for QAM.

Bubster

12-19-06, 07:36 PM

Cable doesn't use ATSC... did you mean:

1.) The TV has a QAM tuner and you pluged the coax from Time Warner into the TV
OR
2.) You used ATSC tuner to get those channels over-the air

I suppose a third possibility is that the TV has an ATSC tunner (but not QAM) and it used the coax as an antenna...

Over the air, I've foudn that WLWT-DT is, by a pretty substantial margin, the easiest to receive (or at least has been in my experience). When I was in Dayton, I always had no trouble getting WLWT-DT, could sometimes get WKRC-DT and WXIX-DT, but could never get WCPO-DT. If you're within the 275 loop or close to it, you should be able to get WLWT-DT with a simple indoor antenna.

If you're talking about QAM tuning through cable, then I'm pretty sure based on what I've heard around here that WLWT-DT is carried "in the clear" and you should be able to tune it (if you do have a QAM tuner). If you read back in this thread I believe the re-map channels have been posted for QAM.

I did #1 as posted in your reply. All local HD stations (that TWC carries) show up except WLWT-DT is nowhere to be found. Already tried an antenna, only channel it picked up at all is channel 64's digital channel.

And yes WLWT-DT should be "in the clear" but all I can find scanning the channels is the analog station (WLWT). I was hoping someone actually knew which channel number it shows up as on TWC's system.

Thanks for the info! I am clueless since my TV is a 3 year old Samsung DLP and I use the TWC box to get the HD channels.

gerhard911

12-19-06, 08:09 PM

Bubster,

See if either of these posts helps (old info but check your decoder box Diag mode to see if the frequencies have changed).

TW Local HD Channel Frequencies (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6201727#post6201727)

Conversion Chart (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6259737#post6259737)

Nitewatchman

12-19-06, 08:47 PM

Tvnick, Before I comment on the below -- I feel its important to emphacize the following :

Let me say in no way, shape or form should it be construed that I am posting the below to "take away" from your excellent post, as the general gist(and most of the specifics as well) of what you said IMO is "right on target", concerning the difficulties stations' face in "transistioning" to HD and DTV, and regarding WKRC and ESPN HD - and also, as I've said before, we(well, I do anyway) very much appreciate the input from those "in the biz" who sometimes post here.

However, I also think it's important, hopefully for obvious reasons that we do our best to provide info which is as accurate as is possible here, although certianly we all make mistakes sometimes, so the below is no big deal ..

You'll notice some of the locals such as WPTO and KET still have no way to bug their HD streams, and others like WXIX could not do it for the longest times.

I notice WPTO-DT does put an bug up on their HD service, but thankfully, not continuously - It's a nice, small animated bug inserted every 10 minutes or so and it stays up on screen for a couple of minutes or so -- There is a "thinkTV" circle at one point which changes to a "14 HD" to the left of a PBS "head" logo that is inserted briefly in lower RH corner of screen. WPTD-DT Dayton Does the same on their "ThinkTV16 HD" service. They've been doing this for a couple of years or so, now.

If I recall correctly believe most MPEG2/HD encoders out there do have the capability to insert/key in such an ID bug on a timer, although I don't know if that is the method WPTO-DT/WPTD-DT is using.

As for KET4 in "HD mode", I believe we've discussed that here in the past with a KET engineer who posts here so I won't comment on that again in hopes we don't "jinx" the current situation ;) ...

Update: Oh -- forgot to mention -- I think another good example concerning what you were "getting at" here would be the lack of current capability from most stations to insert more "signifcant" local graphics into HD ... WCPO-DT's local crawl/SD GMA as but one example ... And, OTOH, why some of us are quite appreciative when engineers do find unique solutions to such issues, when it is possible -- such as WCPO-DT's capability to insert their Weather warning bugs into HD ...
:end update

That green tint that most of you see (although I believe it is less than two degrees and 99.9% of viewers will not see it) ....

I suppose its about as difficult to see as WPTO-DT's "14 HD" bug, or, perhaps the difference in PBS HD PQ quality before and after Multicasting began from WCET-DT ;) ... Just kidding ... Couldn't resist ....

Bubster

12-19-06, 08:48 PM

Bubster,

See if either of these posts helps (old info but check your decoder box Diag mode to see if the frequencies have changed).

Not using TWC box to get the local HD channels. Trying to use the tv tuner, or am I missing something here?

tbenson81

12-19-06, 08:50 PM

gerhard911

12-19-06, 09:02 PM

Not using TWC box to get the local HD channels. Trying to use the tv tuner, or am I missing something here?

I understand that you are not using a box for your mother, but you did state that you had a decoder box. The frequencies shown on your box can be converted (I believe) to QAM channels (what your mother needs) if you follow the table referenced in the second link.

PM me if you still don't understand and I'll try to clarify (but I'm not an expert on the matter).

jimp2244

12-19-06, 09:06 PM

I understand that you are not using a box for your mother, but you did state that you had a decoder box. The frequencies shown on your box can be converted (I believe) to QAM channels (what your mother needs) if you follow the table referenced in the second link.

PM me if you still don't understand and I'll try to clarify (but I'm not an expert on the matter).

ALthough your first link had to do with set top boxes (STBs), your second link should help him... it lists WLWT-DT as 84-1 QAM.

Nitewatchman

12-20-06, 12:33 AM

Sorry for the missing post ... on 2nd thought, I decided it was best to remove the images/etc I had posted, even though they specifically involved PQ issues only and were downrezzed as well, and/or in other words were for "scientific purposes" only ....

jim tressler

12-20-06, 09:08 AM

Directv - it really depends on the installer. When I had mine installed, the guy was ready to fish 4 lines down one wall but was relieved when I told him the lines were already run. The next time an installer was out he said they do not have to fish lines, only punch through. Others have said Directv will fish upto 75 feet of cable.. so its a crap shoot. Either way, make sure the account rep notes the account that they will run / fish lines for you at no cost.

jim

Dish or Directv question

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does anyone know what Directv and Dish' installation policy is? Their websites are kind of vague. I want them to mount the dish and then run new RG6 to the Great Room and the Master Bedroom.

Right now I have RG59 and that wont work with Sattelite.

Do these installers know how to fish cable and all that stuff or will they even do that with basic installation? Thanks!

Tony

tvnick

12-20-06, 09:12 AM

Tvnick, Before I comment on the below -- I feel its important to emphacize the following :

Let me say in no way, shape or form should it be construed that I am posting the below to "take away" from your excellent post, as the general gist(and most of the specifics as well) of what you said IMO is "right on target", concerning the difficulties stations' face in "transistioning" to HD and DTV, and regarding WKRC and ESPN HD - and also, as I've said before, we(well, I do anyway) very much appreciate the input from those "in the biz" who sometimes post here.

However, I also think it's important, hopefully for obvious reasons that we do our best to provide info which is as accurate as is possible here, although certianly we all make mistakes sometimes, so the below is no big deal ..

I notice WPTO-DT does put an bug up on their HD service, but thankfully, not continuously - It's a nice, small animated bug inserted every 10 minutes or so and it stays up on screen for a couple of minutes or so -- There is a "thinkTV" circle at one point which changes to a "14 HD" to the left of a PBS "head" logo that is inserted briefly in lower RH corner of screen. WPTD-DT Dayton Does the same on their "ThinkTV16 HD" service. They've been doing this for a couple of years or so, now.

If I recall correctly believe most MPEG2/HD encoders out there do have the capability to insert/key in such an ID bug on a timer, although I don't know if that is the method WPTO-DT/WPTD-DT is using.

As for KET4 in "HD mode", I believe we've discussed that here in the past with a KET engineer who posts here so I won't comment on that again in hopes we don't "jinx" the current situation ;) ...

Update: Oh -- forgot to mention -- I think another good example concerning what you were "getting at" here would be the lack of current capability from most stations to insert more "signifcant" local graphics into HD ... WCPO-DT's local crawl/SD GMA as but one example ... And, OTOH, why some of us are quite appreciative when engineers do find unique solutions to such issues, when it is possible -- such as WCPO-DT's capability to insert their Weather warning bugs into HD ...
:end update

I suppose its about as difficult to see as WPTO-DT's "14 HD" bug, or, perhaps the difference in PBS HD PQ quality before and after Multicasting began from WCET-DT ;) ... Just kidding ... Couldn't resist ....
You are the man, Nitewatchman. You certianly (sic) spot my errors when I post. :)

Sorry I don't know what you mean about the PBS HD PQ quality.

Nitewatchman

12-20-06, 09:38 AM

^ Tvnick,

Well, I didn't mean to "single you out", as there certianly are many errors posted on this forum which go uncorrected .... More than anything else, I just wanted us to be "fair" to the ThinkTV folks while at the same time commend you for your fine posts (which did take more "words" than I would have liked, sorry about that) ...

PQ = Picture quality (oops! sorry for the extra "quality") -- in this case as in increased compression artifacts during bandwidth demanding PBS HD programming after multicasting began on WCET-DT --- say Nov 2002 - premulticasting -- vs post Multicasting (say spring 2003) ... It does look a better these days, but still not up to what it was at first ....

Just as is the case with the color problem at WKRC-DT(comparing to other source of CBS HD), my 80 year old father with cataracts can see the diffierence ... I don't think It's really all that difficult for any average joe to notice these things, especially if you know what it is SUPPOSED to look like ...

zekyl

12-20-06, 09:52 AM

Dumb question time for me. I bought my elderly mother a 27" Westinghouse LCD HDTV for Christmas. I hooked up her DVD and cable box and all works as expected. This TV has a built in ATSC tuner so today I had the bright idea to hook the coax off the splitter to the tuner connection on the TV and let it scan for channels. To my surprise she can watch wcpo-hd, wkrc-hd, wxix-hd, wcet-hd just fine but wlwt-hd is no where to be found.

Anyone out there have any clue where I might find the HD version of wlwt on the warner cable by using the TV's built in tuner (not the digital cable box since she wont pay any more than she is now).

Thanks!

Bubster - I have a 32" Westinghouse and did the same scan when I got it. WLWT-HD was on something like 84-1 and so was WXIX-HD. A few days after I had the TV the channels flipped over to 12.1 and 19.1. So my guess when talking with Westinghouse was that TWT was not sending (I assume they send it out) the correct channel map. So now, all my locals that are on TWT HD are correct. On a side note, since I have a cable box on my other TV, my Westinghouse found TNT and Discovery HD on the normal 969 and 970. ESPN must be encrypted. I hope this helps as well.

Nitewatchman

12-20-06, 10:53 AM

So my guess when talking with Westinghouse was that TWT was not sending (I assume they send it out) the correct channel map

The stations send the channel remapping info via PSIP VCT(virtual channel table). Both OTA and Cable viewers should get that information.

I'm not sure, but I've heard TW isn't specifically "changing" that PSIP info, it should be just as it is sent by the station -- However, I don't know if it is true or not, but I've heard the only thing they do change about the datastreams from the stations is that they need change the PID's (packet identifiers) for the streams in order to distribute the signals on their system ....

In any case, for whatever reason it seems on occasion, either somehow some of the PSIP info from the stations doesn't allways quite make it to the cable viewer's decoder, or perhaps there are cases when some specific TV/Receiver models are having trouble properly decoding the PSIP info when it's sent via cable for some reason ...

dtv insider

12-20-06, 10:55 AM

Just for FYI

At Think TV all channels (14 &16 ) are switched with a mpeg switcher and logos are keyed with this switcher. The outputs go to a encoder and then to stat mux.

Sea Ray

12-20-06, 10:55 AM

Dish or Directv question

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does anyone know what Directv and Dish' installation policy is? Their websites are kind of vague. I want them to mount the dish and then run new RG6 to the Great Room and the Master Bedroom.

Right now I have RG59 and that wont work with Sattelite.

Do these installers know how to fish cable and all that stuff or will they even do that with basic installation? Thanks!

Tony

My father had Directv installed last week. Their policy as stated to him was that it would cost an extra $80 to fish lines behind walls. Because of my father's refusal to pay this, the installer burned through three batteries on his battery operated drill as he drilled through concrete. The total install for one TV (non HD) took from 11:30am 'till 7pm. I think he'd have been better off fishing it down a wall. He could have used an existing antenna wire as a guide. It wouldn't have been a big deal. So the installer took the wire down the outside wall of the house to the concrete basement wall. Then took the wire along the basement ceiling to the floor of the family room on the 1st floor. I hear he got chewed out by the installer's "boss" that he screwed around on one job for so long. The kid was maybe 21 years old.

jdhughes63

12-20-06, 11:50 AM

So now, all my locals that are on TWT HD are correct. On a side note, since I have a cable box on my other TV, my Westinghouse found TNT and Discovery HD on the normal 969 and 970. ESPN must be encrypted. I hope this helps as well.
969 and 970 come with the regular digital package & an HD box,. However ESPNHD is on a higher level along with 2 INHD and 2 HDNET channels. They cost extra so would be encrypted just like HBO etc.

APorter

12-20-06, 01:40 PM

I hooked up my father-in-laws tv and cable box for him this past weekend and he's all smiles. TW was out of the Pace boxes so he had to take the SA3250HD.

If you bought two of those, let's hope that the cable box and DVD player have a DVI and not an HDMI output. You should leave the second HDMI open if he ever wants a Blu-Ray HD movie player, which might not have a red laser for DVD playback. Such a device will have an HDMI output, and it should be used (long story as to why).

You probably already have component video cable in your house and don't even know it.

You know the yellow, red, and white set of cables you used to connect your VCR? Well, believe it or not, they all can pass video signals as well as similar-looking component cable, as they're made of the same material. Those color markers at the ends are used so that people don't, say, put a certain cable into the left audio on the VCR and then plug it into the video jack on the TV.

Since the composite cable system has a different color scheme than that of component cable, you'll have to make sure that the TV and cable box's cables are hooked up properly. You can use any cable management system you like. I prefer to use the "Red, White and Blue" method. In this scenario, the red cable goes in the red jack. Then the white cable goes into the blue jack. Get it? Red, White and Blue? Anyway, the yellow cable goes in the remaining, green jack. Now granted, this arrangement doesn't pass audio, but you would have used a separate wire or two for that, anyway.

I ordered the correct cables and if he does ever get a HD-DVD player he would have no need for the upconverting DVD player which would free up an HDMI input.

Yes, I have extra component cables at my house just not assembled as I make my own.

Bubster

12-20-06, 03:17 PM

zekyl

12-20-06, 03:32 PM

Nitewatchman

12-20-06, 07:11 PM

jdhughes63

12-20-06, 10:17 PM

Just for the heck of it, thought I'd post that I'm Receiving WBNS-DT (CBS HD Columbus) here this evening, and notice they do have Jeopardy up in HD [update: Wheel of fortune as well], and they are still NOT multicasting(currently at least) ....

Good for them ....
Why is WCPO not transmitting Jeopardy & the Wheel in HD? Weeks ago they said they were going to install some kind of equipment and do it.

terryfoster

12-21-06, 07:00 AM

Why is WCPO not transmitting Jeopardy & the Wheel in HD? Weeks ago they said they were going to install some kind of equipment and do it.

I don't remember hearing anything like that. When, where, or what did you hear something that led you to believe that?

jdhughes63

12-21-06, 08:39 AM

I don't remember hearing anything like that. When, where, or what did you hear something that led you to believe that?
If not on this site then it was an email from the station. Wherever I heard it, equipment had to be purchased and installed. It appears that they cannot record or time delay HD programming. Jeopardy and the Wheel come as a weeks worth of feed from a syndicated source and not a live network feed.

I believe it was an email form someone at Ch 9.

terryfoster

12-21-06, 08:53 AM

Sure, we all know equipment needs to be purchased and installed, but I don't remember any kind of time line being provided as to when we might expect that to happen.

DrDon

12-21-06, 09:07 AM

Sure, we all know equipment needs to be purchased and installed, but I don't remember any kind of time line being provided as to when we might expect that to happen.FWIW, the engineer at the affiliate here in Detroit said he was "d**n lucky" to get the gear when he did as it's almost impossible to get, now. I can't remember the reason he gave for the short supply, but it wasn't entirely from demand.

jim tressler

12-21-06, 09:11 AM

doc- you got the cash.. so how about helpin us poor saps out! :)

DrDon

12-21-06, 09:29 AM

doc- you got the cash.. so how about helpin us poor saps out! :)With two mortgages (KY still hasn't sold), I ain't got diddly. And they don't pay us hayseed DJs as much as they do guys whose names end in -urbank. :D

jdhughes63

12-21-06, 09:29 AM

FWIW, the engineer at the affiliate here in Detroit said he was "d**n lucky" to get the gear when he did as it's almost impossible to get, now. I can't remember the reason he gave for the short supply, but it wasn't entirely from demand.
It does seem odd to us uniformed and non technical type people that they can't time delay an HD feed. We do it all the time at home with the TW HD-DVR cable box. It must be way more complicated than it looks to do it commercially.

DrDon

12-21-06, 09:44 AM

It does seem odd to us uniformed and non technical type people that they can't time delay an HD feed. We do it all the time at home with the TW HD-DVR cable box. It must be way more complicated than it looks to do it commercially.Absolutely. For one thing, uncompressed HD eats up a truckload of storage space. For another, the new gear has to talk to the existing gear so that the programs start simultaneously and switch in and out of breaks flawlessly.

I haven't seen the gear for "Jeopardy" and "Wheel." It's fairly well described in the old "Jeopardy" thread in Programming. I have seen the delay gear CBS uses. It's about the size of an old U-matic (about 10-inches of rack space) and uses tape cartridges that are the size of thick coffee-table picture books. Stores the full uncompressed feed from the network. Each tape holds 90 minutes and they don't come in five-packs for six dollars <G>. Our affiliate uses it to catch the Sunday prime-time pre-feed for those weeks where we only get a late NFL game that runs over. Don't know the price, but I was told, "It's a good thing we're owned by the network, because I'd never get anything like this approved otherwise."

IIRC, the "Wheel" and "Jeopardy" stuff dumps to a hard drive. Last time I checked, the local affiliate was only getting two days in advance, where the SD version ships five at a time. (Also, IIRC) It's a data download as opposed to recording the show off the satellite, as a TiVo would do.

Doc

dtv insider

12-21-06, 10:23 AM

It does seem odd to us uniformed and non technical type people that they can't time delay an HD feed. We do it all the time at home with the TW HD-DVR cable box. It must be way more complicated than it looks to do it commercially.

Sony has a vtr that records hd and it's outputs are analog, sd ,and hd. The price is around $50,000. The tapes are $50.00 apiece. So to playback two shows you need two vtr's and a hd switcher ($20,000 to $100,00 ) . Last time I talked to Sony salesman the vtr's are on the shelf in Calif.

tbenson81

12-21-06, 06:00 PM

Direct Install

You guys rock!

I appreciate the insight!

tbenson81

12-21-06, 06:10 PM

Nitewatchman

12-21-06, 07:24 PM

I haven't seen the gear for "Jeopardy" and "Wheel." It's fairly well described in the old "Jeopardy" thread in Programming.

I should probably mention, FWIW, WBNS-DT has had the capability --- what little of it there has been so far --- to run HD syndicated programming(and key in the local ad breaks/etc) for quite some time ... For as long as I can remember, actually, which goes back to late 2001 ...

Recall as early as 2001/2002 or so they used to run some sort of Sunday morning music program in HD, as well as a few episodes of "Beastmaster" in HD late night .... Seems like they've had a few other things as well, but I can't recall what they were at this time ... WWHO-DT (was WB/UPN - and was viacom owned - now LIN+CW ) Columbus had the HD-one package as well as WKRC-DT, but WWHO-DT ran the HD versions simultanously with the SD on the analog usually in the wee hours+had the local ads on the HD version ....

I don't know however how much of that is relevant to what they needed to add to pick up, and get to air the HD distributions of Jeopardy/Wheel ... Recall reading some of that thread you mentioned a few months ago, but I'm afraid my brain has leaked anything that I had read there by now ;)

I might not be thinking this through throughly enough, but seems to me, somewhat along the lines of the way PBS+Fox distrubte HD -- that a ATSC-compliant MPEG2 stream - in other words -- already encoded at "ATSC bitrates would perhaps at least be one of the more efficent ways to distrubute, and then store syndicated and or/local HD programming .....

terryfoster

12-22-06, 12:49 PM

I was on Directv.com today and they claim to have a new HD DVR box. Anyone know what this is?

Its all black now - did they just change the color? Is the over the air tuner activated on this now?

Tony

It is the "HR20-700B." Still the same box, just with a black casing as far as DBSTalk.com is saying. The OTA tuner has been in the process of activation with the newest firmware upgrades being sent across the country.

tsc

12-22-06, 03:16 PM

I'm not a TWC subscriber, so this doesn't really matter to me, but:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=771239

Looks like TWC might be getting ESPN2/HD near Xmas time. I know this thread refers to a local TWC affiliate and not TWC as a whole, but it might be a sign.....

If they add it, great.. but I would not be surprised if the listed marked in that thread gets the channels, but not too many others. It's up to the local market to decide anyway.. I'd guess they'd remove INHD2 and put ESPN2HD in its place. If you TWC subs get it, congrats, it took long enough!

Unfortunately, it seems what I guessed is true (no big surprise) -- TWC is indeed adding ESPN2HD, but only in Albany in Syracuse (I believe from being former Adelphia markets). Sorry guys!

JunkyardDogg

12-24-06, 04:47 PM

Bubster

12-25-06, 07:27 AM

OK, great info. I did find TNT-HD which thrilled her since she watches TNT more than anything. I'll look for 84-1 when I go over there this weekend. Would this also be known as 84.1? I'm thinking that WLWT-DT missing when I scanned is a burp in the system and it will show fine next time I scan.

Again, thanks for the info.
OK, visited my mother and tried to find WLWT-DT on 84.1. The channels found in the earlier scan jump from 83.11 straight to 87, no 84.x at all. I rescanned and came up with the same thing. Am I missing something? When scanning I select CABLE >> AUTOMATIC for the type of cable. Like I mentioned it finds and/or remaps all the other channels (9,12,19,48, DISC-HD, & TNT-HD).

jimp2244

12-25-06, 12:13 PM

Anyone with a bandwidth reader, could you please check WHIO. I know this is the Cincy thread, but since the majority of us watch WHIO, it would be great to see how much bandwidth is going to the new pointless subchannel. I'm watching the game and it is breaking up on every fast motion, where before it did pretty well.

Yeah, it would be good information to know. I actually think WKRC looked better than WHIO during the Bengals game yesterday. Both looked much better than the OSU basketball game CBS showed the other day.

jimp2244

12-26-06, 10:48 AM

Yeah, it would be good information to know. I actually think WKRC looked better than WHIO during the Bengals game yesterday. Both looked much better than the OSU basketball game CBS showed the other day.

Alright I decided to do this myself. I analyzed both WKRC-DT and WHIO-DT transport streams between 10:00am and 11:00am Dec 26, 2006 and here are the results:

WHIO-HD (7-1) 14.0 Mbps CBS-HD 1080i
WHIO-SD (7-2) 3.6 Mbps 7-WeatherNow-SD 480i

WKRC-DT (12-1) 11.5 Mbps CBS-HD 1080i
CinCW (12-2) 5.0 Mbps CW Network-SD 480i

Here are some other local stations for comparison:

WLWT-DT (5-1) 16.1 Mbps NBC-HD 1080i
WLWT-WX (5-2) 2.4 Mbps WeatherPlusSD 480i

WCPO-HD (9-1) 15.3 Mbps ABC-HD 720p
WCPO-SD (9-2) 3.1 Mbps WeatherTracker-SD 480i

WXIX-DT (19-1) 14.4 Mbps FOX-HD 720p
Tube (19-2) 2.8 Mbps The Tube Music Network-SD 480i

WRGT-DT (45-1) 13.8 Mbps FOX-HD 720p
MyTV (45-2) 3.5 Mbps MyNetwork TV-SD 480i

WDTN-HD (2-1) 16.0 Mbps NBC-HD 1080i
WDTN-SD (2-2) 2.5 Mbps NBC-SD simulcast 480i

WSTR-DT (64-1)* 15.0 Mbps MyNetwork Tv HD 1080i

WCET-HD (48-1)+ 13.3 Mbps PBSHD 1080i
CrEaTe (48-2) 3.2 Mbps PBS Create 480i

I watched the values over a period of time. They do change dynamically but tend to stay within 3 to 5 tenths of the values listed.

It's possible that the bandwidth allocations change during prime time, as none of the channels were showing HD content during the tests. I'll try to test again during primetime.

*A few notes on WSTR: The 15.0 Mbps value never once waivered. It stayed perfectly constant through my entire test. There is also a null packet stream ("filler bits" to take up the whole 19 Mbps pipe) of about 3.9 Mbps.

+On WCET, there is also a null packet stream at about 2.1 Mbps in addition to the two I listed above.

jimp2244

12-26-06, 01:56 PM

UPDATE:

As of 1:50pm:

WKRC-DT is at 8.8 Mbps and CinCW is at 7.6 Mbps and has a null packet stream of about 2.2 Mbps

WHIO-DT is at 13.0 Mbps and WHIO-SD (Weather) is at 3.6 Mbps and has a null packet stream of about 1.8 Mbps

WLWT-DT is at 16.5 Mbps and WLWT-WX is at 1.9 Mbps and has a null packet stream of about 600 kbps

As you can see, WKRC's main HD channel (12-1) is currently being given about half of what WLWT's is. However, given that they're currently showing SD content, it would seem acceptable (and maybe even desireable) for WKRC to give some more bandwidth to the CinCW stream. This is making me very interested to see what bandwidth allocations look like tonight with HD content.

Nitewatchman

12-26-06, 02:12 PM

FWIW ... The Audio streams usually show up as "private stream" or as a AC3 audio stream with the software I use ... Also, in addition to the video/audio of the 19.39Mb/s available, some of that is taken up by PSIP, and of course some stations are datacasting as well ....

It's the Maximum bit rate for the HD video during bandwidth demanding portions of HD programming that is most important I think, as if it is too low(compression ratio too high) during those generally short periods of time, that's when it's the most annoying and unacceptable, as it is very noticable(breaking up into little "blocks" or a sort of "screen door effect", or as "mosquito noise" .... And, from what I have seen with 1080i, it's easy for it to be too low at 15~16Mb/s during those periods, whearas 14~16mb/s is generally probably enough for 720p ... a little over 18Mb/s is about the Maximum available for HD video from a station that isn't multicasting/etc ....

As I mentioned in Dayton thread, my measurements show a maximum of about 15Mb/s for the HD video from WKRC-DT/WHIO-DT recently, a couple of months ago, it was just a bit over 18Mb/s max from WHIO-DT ...

Of course, the efficency of the Encoder has something to do with it as well, and some say the newer encoders can do wonders .... although personally I don't think I have yet to see an indication that bandwidth demanding portions of HD(such as during NFL football panning along with a relatively close up shot of players jogging off the field/etc) at 1920x1080i HD can look as good on a fancy, new encoder at 15mb/s max as at ~18Mb/s on a 1st generation encoder ... I'd certianly like to see that, though ....

WebHopperWeasel

12-26-06, 05:29 PM

I just wanted to ask if WKRC found out why the HD feed has the green tint to it? Also, has the Harris Flexicoder been adjusted so the focus issue is resolved?

We have done alot of work and adjusted settings to fix the FOCUS issues. Please comment on any changes you may have or have not noticed.

We are working on figuring out the "green" tint issue as well.

JunkyardDogg

12-26-06, 07:24 PM

Thanks Weasel on the update! Is WKRC-DT using a form of stat mauxing(spelling?) in order to feed 12.1 the bandwidth it is needed? From above, it seems that the values of the bandwidth change and I figured it would be the encoder changing what stream each required.

Also, does anyone have an email for WHIO? Please post it or send me a PM. The engineer email is preferable. Thanks.

jim tressler

12-26-06, 07:58 PM

well done weasel!! keep up the good work.. happy holidays to you and hank!!

We have done alot of work and adjusted settings to fix the FOCUS issues. Please comment on any changes you may have or have not noticed.

We are working on figuring out the "green" tint issue as well.

WebHopperWeasel

12-26-06, 10:12 PM

Thanks Weasel on the update! Is WKRC-DT using a form of stat mauxing(spelling?) in order to feed 12.1 the bandwidth it is needed? From above, it seems that the values of the bandwidth change and I figured it would be the encoder changing what stream each required.

Yes we use stat muxing to allocate bandwidth to 12.1/12.2 based on the needs of each channel. During HD primetime 12.1 will obviously get more bandwidth due to the need and priority as well.

Weasel

jimp2244

12-26-06, 11:04 PM

Yes we use stat muxing to allocate bandwidth to 12.1/12.2 based on the needs of each channel. During HD primetime 12.1 will obviously get more bandwidth due to the need and priority as well.

Weasel

I was going to check the bandwidth allocations tonight during primetime (HD) but didn't get home until 10pm and of course had the bad luck of CBS having an SD program on. I did go ahead and check again and WKRC-DT is varying between 9-10Mbps while CinCW is varying between 7-8 Mbps. There is also a null packet stream of about 2 Mbps. I assume there is a reason for the null packet stream being so high? If not it would seem that 2 Mbps could be put to use in one of the other streams (WLWT's Weather Plus runs off of 2Mbps alone). As I said before though, while CBS is showing SD content it seems that splitting the bandwidth almost down the middle between WKRC-DT and CinCW seems to make a lot of sense (why make CW look like crap if we can take bandwidth from CBS during SD content?).

I'll try and grab another test tomorrow night during HD so we can really see the effects of the stat muxing.

For what it's worth, I checked WLWT and WCPO and their bandwidth allocations are almost identical to what I reported earlier today. (No reason to check WSTR or WXIX as they aren't showing HD content currently).

Weasel, Thank you for putting the effort in to work on some of the issues. We do appreciate your work and especially your updates here.

microbob

12-26-06, 11:54 PM

Yes we use stat muxing to allocate bandwidth to 12.1/12.2 based on the needs of each channel. During HD primetime 12.1 will obviously get more bandwidth due to the need and priority as well.

Weasel

I'm wondering if 12.2 could show the CW in HD when CBS runs Survivor Aka Smallville or other HD shows at the times when CBS is not in HD

zekyl

12-27-06, 02:57 PM

OK, visited my mother and tried to find WLWT-DT on 84.1. The channels found in the earlier scan jump from 83.11 straight to 87, no 84.x at all. I rescanned and came up with the same thing. Am I missing something? When scanning I select CABLE >> AUTOMATIC for the type of cable. Like I mentioned it finds and/or remaps all the other channels (9,12,19,48, DISC-HD, & TNT-HD).

And it still didn't remap over to 5.1 on her TV? Mine all showed up just fine after a few days. Those are the same settings I am using, I would let it hang out for a while and see if it magically appears on 5.1. I talked with Westinghouse and there wasn't really anything we can do to force map a station.

WebHopperWeasel

12-27-06, 04:38 PM

I'm wondering if 12.2 could show the CW in HD when CBS runs Survivor Aka Smallville or other HD shows at the times when CBS is not in HD

Currently we do not have equipment on-site to enable us to do CW-HD. I am not sure on the timeline for this at the moment.

Weasel

jimp2244

12-27-06, 08:48 PM

Tonight for WKRC during HD (around 8:30-9pm):

12-1 WKRC-DT is running at about 14.4 Mbps during "Two and a Half Men"
12-2 CinCW is running at about 3.5 Mbps during "One Tree Hill"

only 722kbps worth of null packets
12-1 is running AC-3 2.0 audio at 384kbps
12-2 is running AC-3 2.0 audio at 192kbps

During a commercial break on 12-1, bitrate dropped nicely to around 12 Mbps (the black pillars mean there is "less" to encode), and 12-2 enjoyed a bump up to about 4 Mbps.

It looks like WKRC's stat mux is working quite nicely. I'll try to check again during a sporting event with lots of motion.

shannon50

12-27-06, 09:29 PM

can anyone recommend a good dish network installer in the Cincinnati/ Morrow Ohio area?

Thanks

Nitewatchman

12-27-06, 09:35 PM

Some comments :

Green Tint on WKRC-DT during CBS HD :

I haven't had a chance to do "side by side" comparisions from Captures of transport streams from different sources of CBS HD yet(I tried that about a week ago, and the "difference" was *very* apparent) , but just switching back and forth betweeen WHIO-DT and WKRC-DT this evening, it appears to me at this point the Colorimetry or "slight greenish tint" issue with WKRC-DT during CBS HD is likely still present.

What might be best would be if I(or even better, the Engineers at WKRC-DT) had the oppurtunity to examine Color bars via CBS HD feed from WKRC-DT via a properly calibrated display device.

As for me, IF I know when the color bars are going to be up, and am available to check it at the time, I can then compare with color bars via HD test pattern generator on a HD display properly calibrated/etc. for 709 HD Colorspace .... Again, as I mentioned in earlier post a bit over a year ago I luckily came across Color bars up off CBS HD feed from WKRC-DT for a short period of time - and on another occasion, the same test pattern from WHIO-DT, vs. color bars from a HD test pattern generator(and turning R/G/B guns on individually/etc. on a CRT) it was easy to see they were "wrong" from WKRC-DT and "right" from WHIO-DT ...

--------------------------------------------------------

WKRC-DT "focus" issue :

I thought I may have noticed some sort of an improvement here during the HD game on Sunday, but I wasn't sure ... I do know that, other than the "green tint" issue, from a "blockiness", or "digital artifacts" perspective -- I thought the HD PQ for the game was better during bandwidth demanding "shots" from WKRC-DT vs. the current situation from WHIO-DT(which has the "focus" issue as well, BTW), although neither are really up to what they should be IMO (Which would likely require 1080i+No multicasting/etc) ...

HD Bitrates :

Here is some good info on Maximum HD bitrates required via MPEG2 for optimum PQ during the most bandwidth demanding programming(including when Statistical Multiplexing is being implemented) - The info and graphs etc. posted at 2nd link are especially interesting :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9259251&&#post9259251

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5072024&&#post5072024

----------------

Concerning OTA HD(and especially 1920x1080i), I think the following quote from the post at first link pretty much sums up the more detailed info provided in those posts, although I think he probably meant *encoded* at 19.39 Mb/s, not "decoded". Also, Do keep in mind something just over 18mb/s is the max available for HD Video stream for stations that aren't multicasting or doing anything else besides HD other than utilizing available oppurtunistic bandwidth --- as Audio, PSIP and other metadata(EIA-708 captions, EPG info from the PSIP
EIT's/etc/etc). take up the rest of the 19.39 Mb/s available with ATSC in 6MHZ RF channel :

..... So, OTA HD at a 'full' decoded 19.39 Mbps
(from ~1.5 Gbps) is already lacking, and multicasting can shrink the video payload with additional compression, resulting in artifacts when motion within images requires a higher bit rate. -- John

Of course, more effiecent encoders could improve the situation somewhat, and, as mentioned in the links referenced above I suppose lowering resolution(using non-table 3 formats - such as 1440x1080 or 1280x1080) and/or applying filtering techniques could help the "artifacting" issues as well, although of course also with a "penalty" in resolution or quality .... Just other ways of skinning the same cat, all which lead to diminsihed HD PQ of some sort or another ....

Bubster

12-28-06, 06:55 PM

And it still didn't remap over to 5.1 on her TV? Mine all showed up just fine after a few days. Those are the same settings I am using, I would let it hang out for a while and see if it magically appears on 5.1. I talked with Westinghouse and there wasn't really anything we can do to force map a station.

Yes, no remap. I am hoping it magically appears sometime in the near future but for now she is really delighted to get TNT-HD. She loves the Law & Order shows and is tickled with it in HD.

I also gave her my old Sony DVD player since I treated myself to a new Oppo 970 that upconverts over component via a firmware hack. She will have plenty to keep her busy here for the short term but it's just nagging me that WLWT-DT is MIA.

mspalacios

12-29-06, 01:21 AM

I have recently started experiencing signal problems with WCPO in my OTA setup. Signal drops out. Nothing has changed (Winegard SS-100 OTA antenna to DirecTivo HR10-250). I guess with recent strong winds, my antenna may have moved, but want to check with folks in this forum whether they may be having similar issues with their OTA WCPO 9.1 reception.

Who can recommend someone that can help me align my antenna again if this is my last resort? Might as well get this person to run additional coax to another room in my house, planning ahead for more OTA HD signals I may need in the future.... so would appreciate recommendations.

Thanks.

jimp2244

12-29-06, 10:05 AM

I'd like to discuss the possibility of one of the local low power stations (such as WOTH 25 or WBQC 38) carrying a simulcast of Reds games from FSN Ohio. Is there any reason why this couldn't work, and why it wouldn't be a good thing for all involved?

Consider:

FSN/Reds license the simulcast to WOTH or WBQC. This adds to their current revenue in two ways. One, they get paid by WOTH or WBQC. Two, Additional viewers means a possible increase in commercial ad revenue. Tapping into the large market of customers without cable or satellite also gives the Reds more exposure and encourages more interest in the team. End result is good for FSN and the Reds, right?

WOTH or WBQC buy the license to simulcast from the Reds/FSN at a reasonable price. Viewership for Reds games would be much higher than any other content these channels show, meaning commerical time granted by FSN would bring in more revenue than programming currently on the channels. In addition, when non cable/satellite subscribers realize they can watch the Reds games, they become new viewers for WOTH or WBQC. Viewers who never bothered to watch the lower power station before, after "discovering" this channel, would also be likely to watch other shows on the channel, thus increasing viewership even further. End result is good for the lower power station that gets the Reds games, right?

Lastly, Reds fans without cable or satellite get to watch Reds games. Some, who previously spent $50 a month for cable just so they could watch the Reds, now can save that money and put it toward something else. End results is good for the consumer, right?

Let me know what you guys think about this, and if there is a good person to contact with this sort of proposal that would be great.