not seeing any issues with WCPO-HD as of 2:30pm 1/1/07

To cover a couple topics:

INHD2 was planned to go completely off the air on 1/1/2007. TWC is adding A&EHD, MHD, and/or UHD in some areas. ESPN2HD has a very outside chance of being added to the lineup.

I heard ABC switch from what sounded like 5.1 to what sounds more like DD2.0 (which WCPO-DT is encoding into a 5.1 channel stream) and the scratchiness went away. So I don't think this was a WCPO-DT issue as WKEF-DT sounds exactly the same as WCPO-DT at this point. I also don't think I'm hearing any audio out of the center or surrounds.

Seems to have cleared up.

This past week I've noticed a pair of unidentified channels: 50-3 and 50-4 popping up as I flip from WCET-DT to WCVN-DT. There doesn't appear to be any PSIP and they are completely blank. Anyone else get them or know what they are?

Most likely WDTN-DT NBC Dayton. Those are their non-PSIP channels - In other words, where they "actually" transmit and the MPEG program stream # (x.3 and x.4).

50-3 remaps to 2.2 (480i SD)

50-4 remaps to 2.1 (1080i HD) ---

I know that seems "backwards", but that's the way it's been for a couple of years now, at least since the last time I checked.

Unless something was wrong at WDTN at the time you received them, perhaps your receiver saw enough of the signal to find those, but not quite enough to get a lock and thus decode the PSIP info or video/audio streams.

Any decision from Cincinnati TW as to what will replace INHD2? A&E? ESPN2? UniversalHD? Any decision as to when we will see the new channel?
This HD tier needs a little boost.

I checked the "hidden" channels around the HD tier in diagnosis mode and found no new channels added for testing, so it doesn't seem like TWC is making any quick moves to add a channel.

My tv decodes WDTN as 50.03 and 50.04. I haven't received the correct PSIP info in over a year. It worked for a while, then stopped. I then emailed the engineer and told me my tv was too old(?!).

Any decision from Cincinnati TW as to what will replace INHD2? A&E? ESPN2? UniversalHD? Any decision as to when we will see the new channel?.
I heard today that TW Cincinnati has no immediate plans to fill the vacancy left by INHD2. Also no plans to reduce the price of that tier (HD tier).

Direct TV (D*) is looking beter all the time.

wdtn-dt makes sense. I do get 2.1 and 2.2 on rare occasions. That's the outer limit of my reach.

My compliments to the forum & some of its prime contributors. I've learned much but, alas, still not enough.

My question:
I live in Maineville and would like to install a U/V/FM antenna in my attic (I know, I know, not ideal but that's where I'd like to start) I have the following info calculated from AntennaWeb for the seven stations of my focus.
Of the seven stations I'm "aiming" for, the high compass = 254 deg, the low compass = 226 deg, and the ave compass = 240 deg. The distance is 17 miles +/- 4 miles.
Am I likely to get good reception with a stationary installation?
My approach would be to orient at the ave. compass heading. Is this a sound approach?
I gather that Channel Master antennas are well regarded. (If Nightwatchman likes em, they must be good) I'm looking for an antenna recommendation that is best suited for my situation.

Thanks
Prospering

My compliments to the forum & some of its prime contributors. I've learned much but, alas, still not enough.

My question:
I live in Maineville and would like to install a U/V/FM antenna in my attic (I know, I know, not ideal but that's where I'd like to start) I have the following info calculated from AntennaWeb for the seven stations of my focus.
Of the seven stations I'm "aiming" for, the high compass = 254 deg, the low compass = 226 deg, and the ave compass = 240 deg. The distance is 17 miles +/- 4 miles.
Am I likely to get good reception with a stationary installation?
My approach would be to orient at the ave. compass heading. Is this a sound approach?
I gather that Channel Master antennas are well regarded. (If Nightwatchman likes em, they must be good) I'm looking for an antenna recommendation that is best suited for my situation.

Thanks
Prospering

I just put a CM4221 in the attic over the second floor of my GF's condo, pointed at almost exactly the same average (or "split-the-diff") heading for the No. Ky. and Cinti. channels. Of course, she's in Kenwood and you're around Maineville, but it worked fine (and in an attic, no less) last w/e. Watching the Bengals lose in high def rather than SD is still watching 'em lose, though...

Prospering - where in maineville?? it may make a difference.. I am near 22/3 and 48 and if I put the sensar in the attic, I get all cincinnati stations with no problems. dayton is a different story.. I sit high have no trees or hills in the way, so it works for me.

My compliments to the forum & some of its prime contributors. I've learned much but, alas, still not enough.

My question:
I live in Maineville and would like to install a U/V/FM antenna in my attic (I know, I know, not ideal but that's where I'd like to start) I have the following info calculated from AntennaWeb for the seven stations of my focus.
Of the seven stations I'm "aiming" for, the high compass = 254 deg, the low compass = 226 deg, and the ave compass = 240 deg. The distance is 17 miles +/- 4 miles.
Am I likely to get good reception with a stationary installation?
My approach would be to orient at the ave. compass heading. Is this a sound approach?
I gather that Channel Master antennas are well regarded. (If Nightwatchman likes em, they must be good) I'm looking for an antenna recommendation that is best suited for my situation.

Thanks
Prospering

where in kenwood?

I just put a CM4221 in the attic over the second floor of my GF's condo, pointed at almost exactly the same average (or "split-the-diff") heading for the No. Ky. and Cinti. channels. Of course, she's in Kenwood and you're around Maineville, but it worked fine (and in an attic, no less) last w/e. Watching the Bengals lose in high def rather than SD is still watching 'em lose, though...

We're on Schlottman Rd between 48 & Mainville Rd -- Loveland address actually

Thanks for your experience. Isn't the CM4221 a UHF only antenna? What would I "miss" with that version.

ok.. so near adams road and shepperds run or something like that??

you should be fine.. however, the best reception will always be outside..

I also have the cm4221 pointed at dayton and it is uhf only.. however, it has very good vhf reception for vhf channels 10-13, which in our case is important as WCPO 9 broadcasts digital on vhf 10 and WKRC 12 - will be eventually moving to vhf 12. On my cm4221 - it is pointed towards dayton - and with the new lg 5th gen tuner I can get all the cincinnati stations with no problems. so, the cm4221 is a great antenna - and its cheap as well.. I paid $20 for it from warren electronics.

jim

I use a Channel Master 4248, in my attic, and have been very happy with its performance.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4248.html

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

Kind of an odd issue, not sure where to start...

I bought an LG 30FS4D 'slim crt' a few weeks back.
It has both ATSC and clear QAM tuners.
I hooked it up to TW cable (and an antenna).
(FWIW, I'm off the fairfield head-end)
Scanned, and it found the various DTV signals,
including the WLWT and KET streams on 84.

I also have a PC with an AccessDTV card.
It, too, can receive ATSC and clear QAM.
(However, it can only capture OTA streams.)

The issue:
The TV set has problems with the streams on channel 84. This is the only QAM channel that gives me any problem. My AccessDTV PC card has no apparent problems receiving this channel, though it can take a LONG time to sync up. Both the set and the PC card's signal meters shows good signal strength.

By 'problems' I mean - one of two scenarios (so far):

1) During the day, I can tune to any of the KET streams on that channel, and the set seems happy for "long" periods of time. However, if I tune to either of the WLWT streams on that channel, after some variable period of time the screen blanks and I get a 'no signal' icon (even though the signal strength meter is fine). It will stay in this state until I tune away and back - for example to one of the KET streams and then back to the WLWT stream - at which point it will work again, for a while.

2) During the evening, there are periods when I can't tune to ANY of the channel 84 streams. They all give me 'no signal' icon (even though signal strength is ok).

I have yet to identify what the change is that shifts the set between flaky and completely non-functional and back. In both cases, the DTV PC card is able to tune/decode the streams on that channel, though as I said it can take quite a while for it to 'sync up'.

Note that the above observations are based upon sporadic observations and tests over a period of a few days, so the 'pattern' is only starting to emerge...

Is this a fault in the set - that only affects *1* channel?
Is there something odd about the transport stream on 84?
Why the apparent day/night difference in behaviour?

Who the hell do I call? The TV manufacturer? Time Warner? Even if I can convince them that there is a problem, they'll both just point the finger at the other party...

Is anyone else having 'problems' with this particular TW channel?

Do you have the 4248 on a rotator?

>>I use a Channel Master 4248, in my attic, and have been very happy with its performance.<<

Do you have the 4248 on a rotator?

Is anyone else having 'problems' with this particular TW channel?

Yes, i posted a couple weeks ago that the Westinghouse HDTV I bought for my elderly mother would not pick up WLWT-DT in the scan of the digital channels using it's built in tuner. Still havent resolved that issue and it appears to be more of an issue with me then with her. Damn I hate being a perfectionist! :eek:

>>

Do you have the 4248 on a rotator?

Nope. No rotator. In an attic with dimensional shingles on the roof.

Pointed at Dayton.

Get all Dayton channels with no problem, and most of the Cincinnati channels easily.

Yes, i posted a couple weeks ago that the Westinghouse HDTV I bought for my elderly mother would not pick up WLWT-DT in the scan of the digital channels using it's built in tuner. Still havent resolved that issue and it appears to be more of an issue with me then with her. Damn I hate being a perfectionist! :eek:Ahhh another person - I feel better!

What part of town? ie Is this Cincy wide, or a particular head-end...

Does it not get _anything_ on 84, or does it get the six KET SD streams ok?

From experimenting on my end, I'm getting suspicious the problem has something to do with the WLWT streams on that channel. Perhaps if we can get a few people with differant sets all experiencing similar problems, we can convince TW (WLWT?) they have a problem...

Ahhh another person - I feel better!

What part of town? ie Is this Cincy wide, or a particular head-end...

Does it not get _anything_ on 84, or does it get the six KET SD streams ok?

From experimenting on my end, I'm getting suspicious the problem has something to do with the WLWT streams on that channel. Perhaps if we can get a few people with differant sets all experiencing similar problems, we can convince TW (WLWT?) they have a problem...

Northern Fairfield near Lindenwald. The channels it sees jump from 83.11 to 87ish so it gets nothing on 84.

Possibly the same head-end. very interesting...

wait a sec - 83? 87? Both of those are scrambled here.
And 85/86 are clear qam; 85=wxix/wcet, 86=wkrc/wcpo
Perhaps you aren't on the same head-end after all.
You sure about those channel numbers?

Anybody else out there having problems with 84/wlwt?

FYI - clear qam lineup for me is:
(ignoring the junk channels)
81 - seven SD streams, dayton and PS stations
84 - eight streams, wlwt and ket
85 - five streams, wxix and wcet
86 - three streams, wkrc and wcpo
101 - two streams, more wcet
105.11 Discovery HD
115.30 TNT HD

There are no viewable channels on the 83 and 87 range but the tuner sees them. What I am saying is the tuner doesn't even see *any* channels at 84. It goes from blank picture at 83.11 to a blank pic at 87. Doesn't even detect any channels at 84.

And no I am not sure about those channel numbers... the TV is not here. I bought it for my elderly mother otherwise I would be able to take screenshots with my digicam to convey what I mean.

WLWT-DT is currently giving near 17Mbps to the video stream for the AFC Wildcard game today (tested around 4:45pm). I did see it hit or slightly exceed 17Mbps a few times. That is the highest value I have ever seen for any local affilliate to give to an HD video stream, multicasting or not. I should note that I was not testing bitrates before WHIO started multicasting, so I'm not sure what they were sending out.

Also, just under 400kbps are going to the 5.1 audio stream for the game.

- 1.5Mbps (video) and 169kbps (audio) are going to WeatherPlus
- 580kbps are null packets
- There are another 20 or so smaller streams with negligible bitrates

For comparison, WDTN is giving 16Mbps to the HD video stream and 400kbps to the audio stream.

See the attachments for screen shots for each channel.

Hmmm... What is the band-rate of 256-qam? 38Mbps? I wonder how close to the limit TW is pushing things on 84, what with 6 KET SD streams and WLWT's HD+SD streams? Could that be causing the problems I (we) are seeing?

Hmmm... What is the band-rate of 256-qam? 38Mbps? I wonder how close to the limit TW is pushing things on 84, what with 6 KET SD streams and WLWT's HD+SD streams? Could that be causing the problems I (we) are seeing?


Supposedly one cable channel can hold the equivalent of two or three ATSC 19.3 mbps streams. The WLW HD+SD is one and the KET SD streams is the second. So potentially room for one more.

Do you think that unit - as shipped - could be manuvered through an 18" X 24" opening?

New Samsung LN-S4695D owner here and I live in Mason, OH. Picked up a pretty generic RCA UHF/VHF antenna from Best Buy and it does ok. However, I sometimes have to make adjustments depending on the channel (can't pick up ABC Cincy or Dayton BTW). What I would really like is 1 antenna that I never have to move or adjust so I can hit the auto program once and forget about it. My antenna is indoors on the fireplace mantle about 5-6 feet off the ground and close to a window. Does anyone have any recommendations for antennas? I read good things about the Terk HDTVa, but also understand that an antenna may be as good as what it has access to. I'd go through these 327 pages to find another Mason resident with some antenna info, but that seems cumbersome. Thanks!

New Samsung LN-S4695D owner here and I live in Mason, OH. Picked up a pretty generic RCA UHF/VHF antenna from Best Buy and it does ok. However, I sometimes have to make adjustments depending on the channel (can't pick up ABC Cincy or Dayton BTW). What I would really like is 1 antenna that I never have to move or adjust so I can hit the auto program once and forget about it. My antenna is indoors on the fireplace mantle about 5-6 feet off the ground and close to a window. Does anyone have any recommendations for antennas? I read good things about the Terk HDTVa, but also understand that an antenna may be as good as what it has access to. I'd go through these 327 pages to find another Mason resident with some antenna info, but that seems cumbersome. Thanks!


Are you OK with an outdoor antenna or are you specifically asking about indoor antennas? If you really want to set it up and forget about it, outdoor is definitely your best bet. I am able to get all of Cincinnati plus Dayton except Dayton CW-26 HD (WBDT-DT Dayton) relatively problem free with an antenna very similar to the Terk HDTVa pointing out a second story window that faces Dayton (also set on top of several large boxes to get it high enough). Luckily it's in an unused bedroom, but my desire to get Dayton CW (the only HD CW affiliate we have around here) and my desire to get rid of the "ghetto setup" in the unused bedroom have caused me to decide to put up an outdoor antenna. A sufficient outdoor antenna would probably not be much more than that Terk antenna (it's listed at about $35 when I checked it at Amazon.com) if you install it yourself.

Edit/Addition: You noted that your antenna is "indoors on the fireplace mantle about 5-6 feet off the ground and close to a window." Note that with my indoor setup, if I move the antenna even a foot or two away from the window, I start losing reception. Being on a mantle, I'm assuming there is brick or masonry of some sort there and that is not going to be easy for any signal to penetrate.

Are you OK with an outdoor antenna or are you specifically asking about indoor antennas? If you really want to set it up and forget about it, outdoor is definitely your best bet. I am able to get all of Cincinnati plus Dayton except Dayton CW-26 HD (WBDT-DT Dayton) relatively problem free with an antenna very similar to the Terk HDTVa pointing out a second story window that faces Dayton (also set on top of several large boxes to get it high enough). Luckily it's in an unused bedroom, but my desire to get Dayton CW (the only HD CW affiliate we have around here) and my desire to get rid of the "ghetto setup" in the unused bedroom have caused me to decide to put up an outdoor antenna. A sufficient outdoor antenna would probably not be much more than that Terk antenna (it's listed at about $35 when I checked it at Amazon.com) if you install it yourself..

I live in a condo and I don't think I can mount on the roof. I'm thinking about trying a Terk HDTVa and pointing it out towards the north. Am I correct in assuming that the compass orientation information on antennaweb.org means that 90, 180, 270 and 360 degrees mean directly east, south, west, north respectively?


Edit/Addition: You noted that your antenna is "indoors on the fireplace mantle about 5-6 feet off the ground and close to a window." Note that with my indoor setup, if I move the antenna even a foot or two away from the window, I start losing reception. Being on a mantle, I'm assuming there is brick or masonry of some sort there and that is not going to be easy for any signal to penetrate.

I don't have any brick or masonry that I know of. I can pretty much get all channels with some adjustment, I am just trying to not have to deal with that and get them all with one good antenna. So far the HDTVa at least sounds like a worthwhile try.

Thanks!

I live in a condo and I don't think I can mount on the roof.Try the attic...

Is it two story, with bedrooms upstairs and HVAC in basement? Do either of the bedrooms share a wall with the stairwell? Does that bedroom wall have a cold air return to the HVAC?

If so, then with a drill and two small holes you can create a path from the attic straight down to the basement through that plenum. Remove the grating, drill up through the top of the plenum into the attic. Go to the basement, find where that plenum feeds into the cold air return to the HVAC (sheet metal across studs forming a channel) and drill through stud.

Put antenna in attic, feed cable through hole, down plenum, fish it out the bottom in basement, run it wherever you need across basement ceiling, and up through floor to living room set.

I live in a condo and I don't think I can mount on the roof. I'm thinking about trying a Terk HDTVa and pointing it out towards the north. Am I correct in assuming that the compass orientation information on antennaweb.org means that 90, 180, 270 and 360 degrees mean directly east, south, west, north respectively?

Do you have neighbors with dishes mounted? If so, you can mount an antenna in a similar location. Technically the Federal (FCC) rule says you can mount anywhere you have "exclusive use" which would mean a patio, deck, or balcony are fair game. The FCC rule allowing this supercedes any local or association law or rules.

Winegard makes a model called the SquareShooter, which you might consider giving a try:

http://www.winegard.com/offair/squareshooter.htm

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=03&CAT=&PROD=SS-2000

I have never used one of these and so can't vouch for them at all, but they claim to have a 50 mile range on UHF for the amplified version which is probably enough for you to get Dayton digital channels with, which all are currently on UHF. High VHF (channels 7-13) is weaker but probably acceptable to get WCPO-DT which broadcasts on channel 10 and then WKRC-DT which will move to channel 12 once analog shutoff occurs. This antenna is not designed for low VHF (channels 2-6) but currently it doesn't look like we will have any digital channels in this range (although that could of course change in the future). You also have to take into account the fact that you're trying to receive signals from two completey different directions. As I said, I have no issues receiving the Cincinnati stations even with my antenna pointed at Dayton, but you never know what the results will be. It's really impossible to know if/how well it would work without trying it.

You could also put this antenna in your attic as plughplover suggested, although you'll get much better results outside if that's at all possible for you. Also, I know you're not supposed to run UTP (computer network cable) through air ducts because of a poisonous gas issue, but I'm not sure about coax. You may want to check on that first if you plan on going that route.

Just an FYI, I live in a condo/townhome and I am mounting on the roof. I can tell you more about that via PM if you wish.

I am a relative newcomer to OTA HDTV, as well as a first-time poster to this site. I purchased a K-World ATSC 110 Tuner card for my computer just after Thanksgiving. After mating it with a very low-end graphics card that produced poor picture results , I picked up an XFX Graphics Card that has worked flawlessly. I have a dual-monitor setup--one out to my 19" flat screen, the other to my ceiling-mounted Sharp XR-10X projector. I received a great deal of information from this site to help set up my home theater system about 9 months ago (though I never posted), so I am already indebted to some hard-core DIY'ers from this forum.

I live 15 miles to the south of Cincinnati, and have thus far gotten mixed results with an indoor amplified antenna sitting on top of the entertainment center on the first floor of my 2-story home (My computer/projector setup is in the basement. I have split the signal and used an existing first floor to basement in-wall cable feed left over from a previous 2-tuner dish installation to feed the signal downstairs to the TV tuner card). I can get WLWT(5), WKRC (12), WXIX(19), and WSTR(64) without problem, about 94% signal. Also, I get ThinkTV, Channel 14, supposedly out of Dayton, clear as a bell (not even listed on my Antennaweb analysis--go figure).

The problem arises with WCPO(9) and WCET(48). Both have a subpar (below 80%) signal. They are hit-and-miss in terms of a viewable picture. It really doesn't make much sense to me, since the distances and degrees are pretty much clustered together for the channels that I receive clearly as well as those I receive not so clearly.

My immediate question is this: Any suggestions to improve the current setup, or figure out why I'm not getting some channels I reasonably should be getting?

My long-term question is this: I currently have a dish sitting on my roof from a previous installation. Can I remove the dish and use the base and wiring for an OTA antenna? I don't see any reason why I couldn't, but wanted to know if anyone else had done this. Specifically, since there appear to be 4 RG-6 cable terminals up there, I won't know, except perhaps through trial and error, which one will feed directly to the single RG-6 cable coming out into my first floor living room. Also, any suggested antennas for this setup?

I also have a pipe-dream question. My immediate desire is to pick up all the Channels from Cincinnati, and perhaps Dayton as well since the direction is the same. However, I would also love to try to pick up Louisville and Lexington stations (both @ 60 miles away). I talked to a guy at Radio Shack who said HDTV's range is only 40 miles. Based on some of the things I've read here, that is not correct. Any chance of doing this without a rotor setup and an eyesore of an array above my house?

Thanks in advance for any input.

I am a relative newcomer to OTA HDTV, as well as a first-time poster to this site. I purchased a K-World ATSC 110 Tuner card for my computer just after Thanksgiving. After mating it with a very low-end graphics card that produced poor picture results , I picked up an XFX Graphics Card that has worked flawlessly. I have a dual-monitor setup--one out to my 19" flat screen, the other to my ceiling-mounted Sharp XR-10X projector. I received a great deal of information from this site to help set up my home theater system about 9 months ago (though I never posted), so I am already indebted to some hard-core DIY'ers from this forum.

I live 15 miles to the south of Cincinnati, and have thus far gotten mixed results with an indoor amplified antenna sitting on top of the entertainment center on the first floor of my 2-story home (My computer/projector setup is in the basement. I have split the signal and used an existing first floor to basement in-wall cable feed left over from a previous 2-tuner dish installation to feed the signal downstairs to the TV tuner card). I can get WLWT(5), WKRC (12), WXIX(19), and WSTR(64) without problem, about 94% signal. Also, I get ThinkTV, Channel 14, supposedly out of Dayton, clear as a bell (not even listed on my Antennaweb analysis--go figure).

The problem arises with WCPO(9) and WCET(48). Both have a subpar (below 80%) signal. They are hit-and-miss in terms of a viewable picture. It really doesn't make much sense to me, since the distances and degrees are pretty much clustered together for the channels that I receive clearly as well as those I receive not so clearly.

My immediate question is this: Any suggestions to improve the current setup, or figure out why I'm not getting some channels I reasonably should be getting?

My long-term question is this: I currently have a dish sitting on my roof from a previous installation. Can I remove the dish and use the base and wiring for an OTA antenna? I don't see any reason why I couldn't, but wanted to know if anyone else had done this. Specifically, since there appear to be 4 RG-6 cable terminals up there, I won't know, except perhaps through trial and error, which one will feed directly to the single RG-6 cable coming out into my first floor living room. Also, any suggested antennas for this setup?

I also have a pipe-dream question. My immediate desire is to pick up all the Channels from Cincinnati, and perhaps Dayton as well since the direction is the same. However, I would also love to try to pick up Louisville and Lexington stations (both @ 60 miles away). I talked to a guy at Radio Shack who said HDTV's range is only 40 miles. Based on some of the things I've read here, that is not correct. Any chance of doing this without a rotor setup and an eyesore of an array above my house?

Thanks in advance for any input.

Your goal of Dayton + Cincinnati channels is probably achievable with a good, fairly large directional antenna pointed at Dayton. Depending on your exact location, the Cincinnati stations would probably be strong enough to come through even though you aren't "aiming" right at them. You can most definately take that dish down and use the existing cabling for your antenna. If you don't want a rotor (it would really only be $100 or so more to put in a rotor) then the only way to have any chance of getting Lexington and/or Louisville would be to put up more antennas, aimed at those locations. I would suggest a rotor, but you may want to think about how important Lexington and Louisville are to you, as it would most likely add a lot of expense and possibly frustration to achieve that.

For just Dayton + Cincy, one, fixed-mount antenna is probably enough. A VHF/UHF combo is probably best (as WCPO does and WKRC will broadcast on VHF channels). Dayton channels are all currently on UHF (and are scheduled to remain there), so you might be able to get by with a UHF-only directional, which would be quite a bit smaller than the VHF/UHF combos, but then in that case you might have trouble getting WCPO now and WKRC when they switch to their VHF assignment. The VHF/UHF combo is also probably a better future-proof choice in case we get any new VHF digital channels.

Overall though, you're in a pretty nice location since Cincinnati and Dayton are both pretty much the same direction.


As for your short term question, the reason you are having trouble with WCPO is most likely because it's the only VHF digital channel currently, and your current antenna is either not very good for VHF or it's not set up well for VHF. As for WCET, I believe they have a fairly directional broadcast antenna pattern which shoots most of the signal in the North direction, making it hard for you to receive indoors. I live North of the city and it's actually one of the strongest signals I receive.

keep in mind - WKRC will be moving to VHF 12 in the near future so we will have to vhf digital stations in Cincinnati.

New Samsung LN-S4695D owner here and I live in Mason, OH. Picked up a pretty generic RCA UHF/VHF antenna from Best Buy and it does ok. However, I sometimes have to make adjustments depending on the channel (can't pick up ABC Cincy or Dayton BTW). What I would really like is 1 antenna that I never have to move or adjust so I can hit the auto program once and forget about it. My antenna is indoors on the fireplace mantle about 5-6 feet off the ground and close to a window. Does anyone have any recommendations for antennas? I read good things about the Terk HDTVa, but also understand that an antenna may be as good as what it has access to. I'd go through these 327 pages to find another Mason resident with some antenna info, but that seems cumbersome. Thanks!

I live in Mason and use a Terk HD "rabbit ears" for HD OTA. My TV is in the basement and I placed the antenna above my suspended ceiling then ran the cable behind the wall to TV. It took a while to find the "sweet spot" where I got the best reception for most of the channels. It helps if your TV can show the signal strength. I cannot get WCPO at all and I can get the Dayton ABC station with a low signal but there is a lot of freeze frames and artifacts clogging the picture depending on weather. Luckily, I don't watch a lot of ABC since they don't have the NFL any more. :)

// Scott A

I live in Mason and use a Terk HD "rabbit ears" for HD OTA. My TV is in the basement and I placed the antenna above my suspended ceiling then ran the cable behind the wall to TV. It took a while to find the "sweet spot" where I got the best reception for most of the channels. It helps if your TV can show the signal strength. I cannot get WCPO at all and I can get the Dayton ABC station with a low signal but there is a lot of freeze frames and artifacts clogging the picture depending on weather. Luckily, I don't watch a lot of ABC since they don't have the NFL any more. :)
// Scott A


Sound very familiar to my experience. I don't really watch anything on ABC other than SOAS on Sunday night, but I also have Dish Network with locals which will DVR that for me. I never watch 48. I don't have the rabbit ears extended since I'm just using the UHF loop and I get everything pretty well. I usually have to watch fox on 45 instead of 19, so for 2,5,7,12,45, 64 I'm pretty set. I'm gonna try the Terk HDTVa to see if 19, 22, and 48 will come in in addition to those without having to move it around.

Oh I have another question. Does FoxSportsNet Ohio/Cincinnati or whatever ever broadcast Reds games in High Def? If so, I might have to cave and get the HD package from Dish Network.

Oh I have another question. Does FoxSportsNet Ohio/Cincinnati or whatever ever broadcast Reds games in High Def? If so, I might have to cave and get the HD package from Dish Network.

No, they don't.

That seems outdated that they wouldn't. I wonder if it's on the horizon.

its on the horizon - they do some cavs games in hd.. the question is when..

With the "D* is looking better and better" notes I thought I would share:

I've been on D* for about three days now. So far so good. The install was as good as can be expected. I ended up having to run my own second line (from the attic) for the DVR (he used existing D* wiring that must have been bad and he never tested the second tuner for signal strength).

I don't know if it is just the difference in equipment, but I believe the PQ on HD channels is better with D* than I was getting with TWC. I haven't noticed any MPEG4 compression problems with the digital locals yet and i'm personally not seeing a difference in quality. I'm looking forward to this next year where D* has committed to adding 40 new HD channels to the lineup. My experiences are with a 46" 720p HD display so YMMV.

The DVR has performed as expected and doesn't have the weird quirks that the SA8300HD had. It has the 30 second skip which I haven't mastered yet. This DVR lacks the jump back I'm used to when hitting play after FFWD'ing for a while. The light dial on the front is a bit gimmicky with it's "breathing" and spinning.

Now i'm all set for the fall when the Big Ten Network launches!

With the "D* is looking better and better" notes I thought I would share:

I've been on D* for about three days now. So far so good. The install was as good as can be expected. I ended up having to run my own second line (from the attic) for the DVR (he used existing D* wiring that must have been bad and he never tested the second tuner for signal strength).

I don't know if it is just the difference in equipment, but I believe the PQ on HD channels is better with D* than I was getting with TWC. I haven't noticed any MPEG4 compression problems with the digital locals yet and i'm personally not seeing a difference in quality. I'm looking forward to this next year where D* has committed to adding 40 new HD channels to the lineup. My experiences are with a 46" 720p HD display so YMMV.

The DVR has performed as expected and doesn't have the weird quirks that the SA8300HD had. It has the 30 second skip which I haven't mastered yet. This DVR lacks the jump back I'm used to when hitting play after FFWD'ing for a while. The light dial on the front is a bit gimmicky with it's "breathing" and spinning.

Now i'm all set for the fall when the Big Ten Network launches!

What's D*? DirectTV or Dish Network? The issue I have with Dish Network is that they charge you $200 to have an HDTV DVR. In fact they nickle and dime you for everything that they can. Remove a channel? 10 bucks. Come to look at a problem? 50 bucks. HDTV DVR? 200 bucks.

What's D*? DirectTV or Dish Network? The issue I have with Dish Network is that they charge you $200 to have an HDTV DVR. In fact they nickle and dime you for everything that they can. Remove a channel? 10 bucks. Come to look at a problem? 50 bucks. HDTV DVR? 200 bucks.

D* (DirecTV) and E* (Dish Network owned by EchoStar) are common abbreviations on this forum.

I urge everyone to tune in to WCPO-DT, it is 7:45 P.M. and they have Jeopardy in HD! The link between the SD and the HD program log was fixed so that both channels have the same programming running. This is great, I have also heard that WHIO-DT will be adding a recorder soon. What we need next is local HD news, come on WCPO!

Ya beat me to it JY Dogg!

Thanks WCPO!

BTW, notice WKRC-DT fixed their slight SD stretch during SD upconverts over the weekend ... Thanks weasel+crew ...

Hey all... I'm new to this forum (I just got an HDTV!!!). Sorry if I'm repeating questions answered by others, but I have the following questions...

I live in the Kenwood area and have an indoor HDTV antenna. An outdoor antenna is not an option for me, but I would like to know if there are other antennas that might get better reception than mine. These are the channels I currently get with my antenna (a Philips MANT1450)...

5, 5.1, 5.2
9 (analog only, no digital)
12, 12.1, 12.2
14.2, 14.3, 14.4, 14.5, 14.6 ... no analog feed however.
19, 19.1, 19.2
22 (analog)
25 (analog)
38 (analog)
43, 43.1, 43.2, 43.3, 43.4, 43.5
48, 48.1, 48.2
64 (I don't get 64.1... the digital feed)

I specifically am interested in getting the digital feeds of channel 9, but 64.1 would be nice also.

Is there anything I can do to increase my reception, such as buying another antenna? Will I be able to get any Dayton-area networks (such as channel 2 or 7)? Getting the digital feeds of 9 and 64 are more important, however.

Thanks,

Jason

Thanks for the heads up! I have set my DVR for tomorrow and will check it out then. Great job WCPO-DT!

I live in the Kenwood area and have an indoor HDTV antenna. An outdoor antenna is not an option for me ... I specifically am interested in getting the digital feeds of channel 9, but 64.1 would be nice also.

Is there anything I can do to increase my reception, such as buying another antenna? Will I be able to get any Dayton-area networks (such as channel 2 or 7)? Getting the digital feeds of 9 and 64 are more important, however.
Try the RadioShack 15-1868, available at RS stores for $21. You won't get Dayton stations with it, but it should be better at WCPO-DT reception. Of course, you could fool around with the current setup. At my place, moving the cable, let alone the antenna, can prevent a consistent lock of some stations! Yes, it is quad-shielded RG-6.

I'm totally new to the HD world. Up until a couple of weeks ago I really didn't know much about it except that it existed. I had my buddy help me pick out a TV and ended up with a Sony KDL-40V2500. He didn't know you could get HD over the air -- that was something I had read and was looking forward to.

So we got it home and hooked it up, I got a $30 powered antanea from Walmart (a Philips MANT510) and had it autotune the digital stations.

My jaw hit the floor. I can't believe the quality of this picture. HD is awesome. The football games are amazing.

So my question is: with my little indoor antenae I'm getting a good picture, but I don't really know if it's really the best because I'm so used to a really crappy picture. I live in Florence, KY. I think I'm pretty high up so I think with a roof mounted I can probably see anything broadcasting from Cincinnati. Does anyone think I'll get a better picture enough to justify the cost?

A couple of things to note: right in my backyard there is literally one of those huge electircal towers (the super high voltage ones.) I don't know if they interfere with signals (doesn't seem to), or if I need to be careful with a roof mounted antenea. Also, the airport if fairly close, does that have any impact?

You've said you can pick up some HD broadcasts and ask if you should get a bigger/better antenna without stating what you can actually receive. It may not be worth it to by a new antenna if you can actually get the channels you need. So, what channels can you receive with your indoor antenna?

A different antenna isn't going to provide you with a better digital picture like it could with analog signals.

unixfreak0037: A little lesson with digital TV: A viewer will get either no picture, an intermittent picture (often with giant off-colored and large rectangular shapes), or a solid, beautiful-looking picture. In other words, you already have the best picture that you're gonna get. Congratulations.

With the "D* is looking better and better" notes I thought I would share:

I've been on D* for about three days now. So far so good. es!

I have looked into the *D website and became confused. Do they get the locals and do they get the locals in HD when transmitting? Or do you need a separate antenna. Or is the HD off the satellite on network feeds? If you have to have a separate antenna the does your TV need a tuner. I am diaappointed with TW HD and looking to switch.

D* offers 5,9,12,19,14,25,54,64,48 in SD and 5.1,9.1,12.1,19.1 in HD over satellite all the time (same feed as OTA and TWC). If you want 54.1, 64.1 and 48.1 in HD and 5.2, 9.2, 19.2, 48.2-48.3 in digital, then you need an antenna to hook into the d* receiver. The D* receiver will integrate those channels into the guide so it is seamless. D* does not give us access to the network only feeds. Hope that helps and I hope I didnt confuse the issue more :)

I have looked into the *D website and became confused. Do they get the locals and do they get the locals in HD when transmitting? Or do you need a separate antenna. Or is the HD off the satellite on network feeds? If you have to have a separate antenna the does your TV need a tuner. I am diaappointed with TW HD and looking to switch.

WLWT-DT is currently giving near 17Mbps to the video stream for the AFC Wildcard game today (tested around 4:45pm). I did see it hit or slightly exceed 17Mbps a few times. That is the highest value I have ever seen for any local affilliate to give to an HD video stream, multicasting or not. I should note that I was not testing bitrates before WHIO started multicasting, so I'm not sure what they were sending out.

Also, just under 400kbps are going to the 5.1 audio stream for the game.

- 1.5Mbps (video) and 169kbps (audio) are going to WeatherPlus
- 580kbps are null packets
- There are another 20 or so smaller streams with negligible bitrates

For comparison, WDTN is giving 16Mbps to the HD video stream and 400kbps to the audio stream.

See the attachments for screen shots for each channel.

Just an update... I got my new antenna installed yesterday and I can now receive WBDT (26-1 digital broadcast on UHF channel 18). They are giving the HD video stream 18Mbps (audio stream gets 460kbps and the rest are null packets). THAT is the highest I've ever seen. Their picture is gorgeous!

You've said you can pick up some HD broadcasts and ask if you should get a bigger/better antenna without stating what you can actually receive. It may not be worth it to by a new antenna if you can actually get the channels you need. So, what channels can you receive with your indoor antenna?

A different antenna isn't going to provide you with a better digital picture like it could with analog signals.

I'm getting 5.1, 5.2, 9.1, 9.2, 12.1, 12.2, 14.2, 14.3, 14.4, 14.5, 14.6, 19.1, 19.2 (I love that one), 39.3, 39.4, 39.5, 39.6, 39.7 and 64.1. According to AntennaWeb I should get a lot more than that, but I guess I need a better antenna.

Here's the breakdown for Mason, OH with my RCA antenna (indoor):

Good signal: 2, 5, 7, 12, 45
Sometimes: 64
Weak: 10, 19, 22, 48

Good thing I don't watch anything on ABC (10, 22) and I can pick up 19 on 45.

I'm getting 5.1, 5.2, 9.1, 9.2, 12.1, 12.2, 14.2, 14.3, 14.4, 14.5, 14.6, 19.1, 19.2 (I love that one), 39.3, 39.4, 39.5, 39.6, 39.7 and 64.1. According to AntennaWeb I should get a lot more than that, but I guess I need a better antenna.

Well, you're getting all the major networks as far as I can tell. I would only recommend a bigger antenna if you feel you need to get the other "out of market" channels.

Thanks for the heads up! I have set my DVR for tomorrow and will check it out then. Great job WCPO-DT!

I scanned through WoF and Jeopardy last night and they looked great. It will be interesting to see what this new equipment allows WCPO-DT to do. Maybe the next time Billy Graham has a special they could record the prime time ABC-HD show to be replayed later.

Terry,

I edited my initial post, WCPO had been able to record, however, they could not get the link between the SD log and HD log to work, so the two feeds wouldn't match up. They got that fixed, so we now have those two programs. I received emails from both engineers that I have had contact with and both said they are very committed to HD. They warned me that tonite, Weds, there was a problem with the feed and it won't likely be in HD. WCPO also installed a new graphics generator this week that will allow them to stay in HD and the graphics will be HD, which is great, GMA HD finally! I should also mention that WCPO has some big stuff planned this year (top secret), but my emails involved HD news and local productions, so take that however you wish! If anyone would like to contact WCPO engineers to thank them or complain, please PM me and I will get you their contact info. Overall, it seems that station engineers are listening to the viewers and appreciate our feedback.

D* offers 5,9,12,19,14,25,54,64,48 in SD and 5.1,9.1,12.1,19.1 in HD over satellite all the time (same feed as OTA and TWC). If you want 54.1, 64.1 and 48.1 in HD and 5.2, 9.2, 19.2, 48.2-48.3 in digital, then you need an antenna to hook into the d* receiver. The D* receiver will integrate those channels into the guide so it is seamless. D* does not give us access to the network only feeds. Hope that helps and I hope I didnt confuse the issue more :)
Thanks for the help. I understand that the basic network stations in the area can be received from the dish itself as well as the HD channels of those same network stations. No antenna needed (only the satellite dish). Not sure what you meant by 5.2, 9.2, 19,2 & 12.2 if there is one.

ie 5 is SD, 5,1 is HD but what the heck is 5.2?

Thanks for the help. I understand that the basic network stations in the area can be received from the dish itself as well as the HD channels of those same network stations. No antenna needed (only the satellite dish). Not sure what you meant by 5.2, 9.2, 19,2 & 12.2 if there is one.

ie 5 is SD, 5,1 is HD but what the heck is 5.2?

5.2 NBC Weather Plus
9.2 WCPO Radar
19.2 The Tube
12.2 CW (but this may come over the satellite anyway I don't know since I haven't looked for it)

Those channels (except for maybe the CW) are not available over the satellite, but can easily be picked up with adding an antenna.

12.2 CW (but this may come over the satellite anyway I don't know since I haven't looked for it)


DirecTV carries the Cincinnati CW station on channel 25. DISH Network couldn't come to an agreement with Clear Channel so they are giving Cincinnati subscribers the CW station from Miami on DISH channel 251.

5.2 NBC Weather Plus
9.2 WCPO Radar
19.2 The Tube
12.2 CW (but this may come over the satellite anyway I don't know since I haven't looked for it)

Those channels (except for maybe the CW) are not available over the satellite, but can easily be picked up with adding an antenna.
Thanks for the reply. I don't watch those *.2 channels. I understand that the 12.2 comes in ove rhte regular channel.

my fault.. 12.2 is on directv as channel 25

Quick LP DTV update ...

As of today, according to FCC CDBS info, WOTH-LP, Cincinnati(analog 25) application for a construction permit to operate a digital station on digital companion channel 47 has been granted by FCC :

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_det.pl?Application_id=1151815

Its for 15KW ERP from nice and high on WCPO's tower ... I'd think It should get out very well once they get it built ...

Update:

Also, a construction permit for digital companion channel 23(apparently with callsign W23DM-D oddly enough) for KET Translator W56AM(analog), Falmouth, KY was granted by FCC today :

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_det.pl?Application_id=1155557

----------------------------------------------

Still waiting to see what happens with WBQC-CA and KET Translator W56AT(augusta, KY) digital companion channel apps, both for channel 20, as well as the Channel 6 DTV app for near Oxford from a LP analog CP for near Connersville, IN(W27CT - not on air yet AFAIK) owned by an outfit called "venture technolgies" .....

BTW, Springfield OH (W20CL analog) TBN translator recently modified their digital companion app for channel 24 to send a bit less power, specifically because of co-channel interference concerns involving WCVN-DT ....

I can get a somewhat watchable signal on Ch 25, I hope the new ch 47 WOTH is receivable in my area

Dang, I meant to mention this here before it happened but it slipped my mind... Good Morning America did a bit about Jungle Jim's market out here in Fairfield on the Saturday 7-8am show. I recorded it and as it turned out you didn't miss much but still interesting nonetheless. Making a quick & dirty DVD of my MCE recording for my mom to see since she was asleep and missed it.

Oh yes, thanks to the people at WCPO if they happen to read this forum for making many people, including my elderly mother, very happy about showing WOF and Jeopardy in HD now. I hate WOF but love Jeopardy myself. My mother is 77 and loving her new 27" Westinghouse HDTV I got her for Xmas. I rigged it so she could switch from her SD cable box to the internal QAM tuner and pick up the local HD stations plus TNT-HD & DISC-HD to watch certain things. As a kid growing up watching my dad fiddle with antennas and rotors etc. constantly it's a shame he is not still with us to finally see what television should really look like.

Oh yes, I have 2 questions I hope someone here can answer...

1. Is it possible to connect an eSATA external drive to my SA 8300HD for more storage space? I see from some minor Googling it is possible with the SARA versions of this DVR.

2. Is it possible to connect the 8300HD via Firewire (or any method for that matter) to my computer and therefore be able to grab the transport stream to rip into a file? This thought crossed my mind as I was using my lower quality XP MCE recording of GMA to make a DVD. Making the DVD from the higher quality DVR recording would have been nice.

As a kid growing up watching my dad fiddle with antennas and rotors etc. constantly it's a shame he is not still with us to finally see what television should really look like.

Antennas and Rotors work great for HDTV : ) -- So do firewire connections to PC's from OTA tuners with firewire (although there probably aren't many of them) , BTW ...


2. Is it possible to connect the 8300HD via Firewire (or any method for that matter) to my computer and therefore be able to grab the transport stream to rip into a file? This thought crossed my mind as I was using my lower quality XP MCE recording of GMA to make a DVD. Making the DVD from the higher quality DVR recording would have been nice.


See these threads in HDTV recording area :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=581843&page=1

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=403695&page=1

FWIW, I haven't spent a lot of time on it yet(as it's hard to get too excited about archiving to DVD when the HD recordings from the transport streams off the Hard drive look so great), but The problem I've had with transcoding from 1080i/720p HD to DVD is finding a good encoder that will work(without taking too many hours to transcode), will produce high quality 720x480 video, and won't result in artifacts very similar to what used to occur during WCPO-DT's 1280x360 downsampling "phase" .... right now, I'm using a simple freeware GUI front end to ffmpeg called "HDTVtoDVD" (along with other tools to edit out commercials+author to DVD, split/combine TS's, convert from TS to MPEG/DVR-ms/etc/etc) and am "casually" looking for something better ....

2. Is it possible to connect the 8300HD via Firewire (or any method for that matter) to my computer and therefore be able to grab the transport stream to rip into a file? This thought crossed my mind as I was using my lower quality XP MCE recording of GMA to make a DVD. Making the DVD from the higher quality DVR recording would have been nice.


I don't think there's any way to get the transport stream off a digital cable box. Even if there were, I don't think it would last long as I am hearing that new carriage agreements with cable companies include clauses requiring the cable company to be able to enforce such things as "only view x number of times," "delete automatically after x number of days," and "limit output to 480i."

However, if you've got Windows MCE, grab an HD tuner card. I've only worked with ATSC (over-the-air) but it works very well. I think there are some cards out there that will do QAM tuning as well. These cards can be had for under $100.

I tried Windows Vista's built in media center but had a few issues with it (one being Microsoft's DRM compliance, and others related to functionality and performance). I now run BeyondTV 4.5 on my XP box and have it plugged into my Samsung 56" 1080p DLP.

I tried many DVR solutions in the past, and nothing even compares to my current setup. I can log in anywhere there is an internet connection and schedule a show to record (it even has a mobile interface so I can schedule a recording from my blackberry). It records the actual HD transport stream, so playback is just as good as watching live (minus commercials). It's great having a queue of HD shows waiting for me whenever I feel like watching TV. Plus, SnapStream BeyondTV has a DVD writing plugin, and also a feature called ShowSqueeze which allows you to export video to WMV or AVI. It actually has several mpeg4 codecs designed for HD so you can keep the high resolution video. I'm very impressed with this system, and have been using it for about 2 months now. I would say it works just as well (if not better) than a cable or satellite DVR plus it has more features and functionality. You can even export to a file compatible with your PDA.

[QUOTE=I'm using a simple freeware GUI front end to ffmpeg called "HDTVtoDVD" (along with other tools to edit out commercials+author to DVD, split/combine TS's, convert from TS to MPEG/DVR-ms/etc/etc) and am "casually" looking for something better ....[/QUOTE]

I use HDTVtoMPEG to cut out commercials and Nero to burn the ts file. Nero transcodes the ts file pretty well. Takes a while though.

I use HDTVtoMPEG to cut out commercials


Same here .. Great little utility BTW ...

Oh yes, I have 2 questions I hope someone here can answer...

1. Is it possible to connect an eSATA external drive to my SA 8300HD for more storage space? I see from some minor Googling it is possible with the SARA versions of this DVR.

2. Is it possible to connect the 8300HD via Firewire (or any method for that matter) to my computer and therefore be able to grab the transport stream to rip into a file? This thought crossed my mind as I was using my lower quality XP MCE recording of GMA to make a DVD. Making the DVD from the higher quality DVR recording would have been nice.

1. No. I haven't heard of any successful eSATA additions on the Passport software.

2. No. I tried this several times and concluded, from my experience and other posts on this forum, that a firmware upgrade to the SA8300HD has prevented this from working. I could get about 5 seconds before the stream would die.

Boy oh boy the new encoder for WKRC-DT has certainly improved the HD picture! I know I'm a bit late, but I thought I should share.

Boy oh boy the new encoder for WKRC-DT has certainly improved the HD picture! I know I'm a bit late, but I thought I should share.



Yes it has especially in SD upconvets....HD has improved as well. Any ETA on 5.1 audio?

When did WKRC put in a new encoder? Did I miss something?

When did WKRC put in a new encoder? Did I miss something?

"Encoder" was probably the wrong word. I was referring to the stat muxing (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9279812&&#post9279812) in use to allocate more bandwidth to 12.1.

Maybe this has been covered before, but can someone explain why 5.1 sound from all the local channels sounds like crap through TW? Is this just an issue with the cable company

For example - 24 last night sounded like garbage - It definitely didnt sound like 5.1

Then again - nothing from time warner sounds like its true 5.1

Thanks

Tony

Maybe this has been covered before, but can someone explain why 5.1 sound from all the local channels sounds like crap through TW? Is this just an issue with the cable company

For example - 24 last night sounded like garbage - It definitely didnt sound like 5.1

Then again - nothing from time warner sounds like its true 5.1


I never had 5.1 issues when I was on TWC. I haven't watched 24 yet, but I have heard from other sources that there may have been some issues with that broadcast. Maybe you need a new box?

DirecTV carries the Cincinnati CW station on channel 25. DISH Network couldn't come to an agreement with Clear Channel so they are giving Cincinnati subscribers the CW station from Miami on DISH channel 251.

One thing to note, this is definately true, that E* subscribers can get the Miami CW channel in the Cincinnati DMA -- EXCPET for recent subscribers. I signed up in November with E*, but after I noticed I was not receiving the Miami CW channel I called them up. They said I was not eligible for the channel but I could buy a superstation for $1.99/month.

Sort of frustrating that a neighbor (that may have had E* for a while) can get the channel, but I (or other new subs) cannot and are forced to pay for a CW channel that others (albeit a different channel) are getting for free. I did not opt to buy a superstation, but I've considered it. The wife records some shows on CW, and I'm forced to use my OTA tuner to record them.

Perfect example: last night we decided we wanted to record 24 in HD. She also wanted to record 7th Heaven (I hate that show) on CW and Desperate Housewives on ABC. DH I could record on 9 in SD, but could not record 7th Heaven from 12.2/26 and record 24 from 19/45 at the same time. So, she decided to watch it live in the other room so we could record 24 in HD.

I like that I can record 3 things at once w/ E*, but since we have no Cincinnati locals yet, I can only record 1 local in HD. Adding the locals in HD would be great, wouldn't help my CW situation, but I would be able to shuffle things around if needed and record HD from the sat tuners.

Oh well, sorry for the long post.. just wanted to point that out -- not every Cincinnati E* subscriber can get that Miami channel. :(

I never had 5.1 issues when I was on TWC. I haven't watched 24 yet, but I have heard from other sources that there may have been some issues with that broadcast. Maybe you need a new box?
24 5.1 seem just fine the last couple nights. Watching it on D* HR20.

I started watching 24 last night and the PQ and 5.1 audio are so far without issue. I am also watching this via D* with the HR20.

Hi! I'm fairly new to the HD world and I have some questions. I received a 32" LCD TV over Christmas and it has an HD tuner. I just get normal cable from TW (not digital or satellite cable) - just your typical cnn, espn, etc.

I set up the tv, did auto-search with the cable (no antenna) and I get a variety of stations - 5.1, 5.2, 19.1, 19.2, 105 (Discovery HD), TNT HD, and a ton of PBS channels.

However, I'm fairly positive there is an ABC affiliate and channels 12.1 & 12.2 (I would assume that's CBS and carrying the CW?). Those are the only channels I'm really interested in getting - the other ones are just a bonus - and it really doesn't matter if I get Dayton stations. I really just want to get an ABC station and CBS and the CW. I'm in Oakley in Cincinnati. If I get an additional antenna, that should hopefully pick up these stations? Would I need to do anything else? Would the rabbit ears hopefully be strong enough to pick up those stations?

Would the rabbit ears hopefully be strong enough to pick up those stations?

I dunno, the transmitter shacks+towers would be awfully heavy, maybe if you don't pick up Weasel, William, Tvnick or dtvinsider it might work ... Oh wait, you're going to need those guys too ...... ;)

But seriously, yeah, you've got a good shot at it(the cincy stations) with some sort of simple indoor antenna ... Also, Maybe if you search this thread for "QAM" you might find some useful info concerning the channels you are looking for, as some folks have run into some issues "tuning in" some stations via their internal qam tuners, especially on some of the "virtual" remapped channels you mention .... You'll also find info on the Cincinnati stations in the first post of this thread ...

I believe TW Cincy carries all the services from the local broadcasters you seem to be looking for, I think they should all be available "in the clear" to any cable subscriber's user supplied "QAM tuner" (hopefully there are no filters in line blocking the frequencies they use) .... The only Cincinnati digital station they don't carry currently I believe is WSTR-DT(MyTV HD), although you'd need Dayton(probably a good, hi-gain directional outdoor antenna+maybe a bit of luck from Oakley depending upon any terrain issues to the north/etc) for CW HD, as it's currently a SD Only multicast channel only from WKRC-DT Cincinnati(CBS HD on 12.1, CW SD on 12.2 as you mentioned) ...

Hi! I'm fairly new to the HD world and I have some questions. I received a 32" LCD TV over Christmas and it has an HD tuner. I just get normal cable from TW (not digital or satellite cable) - just your typical cnn, espn, etc.

I set up the tv, did auto-search with the cable (no antenna) and I get a variety of stations - 5.1, 5.2, 19.1, 19.2, 105 (Discovery HD), TNT HD, and a ton of PBS channels.

However, I'm fairly positive there is an ABC affiliate and channels 12.1 & 12.2 (I would assume that's CBS and carrying the CW?). Those are the only channels I'm really interested in getting - the other ones are just a bonus - and it really doesn't matter if I get Dayton stations. I really just want to get an ABC station and CBS and the CW. I'm in Oakley in Cincinnati. If I get an additional antenna, that should hopefully pick up these stations? Would I need to do anything else? Would the rabbit ears hopefully be strong enough to pick up those stations?

Hey there Rockybeach,
I happen to have a 32" Westinghouse HDTV. I too have TWC and I plugged in my TV directly to cable jack in the wall, no digital TWC box. I got all the channels you mentioned through TWC basic cable but 12.1 and 12.2. However I did find 12.1 and 12.2 somewhere in the 80+ range. I contacted Westinghouse support and they said there was no special mode to manually remap the channels to the correct 12.1 and 12.2. So I just gave up and knew that if I wanted 12.1 I needed to tune in 84.6 or what ever. Then a few days later the channel was gone. I was bummed, but then I noticed it magically appeared on 12.1. So my assumption is this. TWC must have not been sending out the correct mapping for 12.1 and 12.2 or only sends it out occasionally (I could be totally wrong here). So I would just hang in there for a few days and 12.1 will probably show up. I hope that helps.

I believe TW Cincy carries all the services from the local broadcasters you seem to be looking for, I think they should all be available "in the clear" to any cable subscriber's user supplied "QAM tuner" (hopefully there are no filters in line blocking the frequencies they use).

If there are any filters that block the local broadcast digital channels give TW a call and they will remove them. ALL the local stations except for WSTR have "must carry" agreements with the local cable companies and all of them must carry them unencrypted in ALL packages.

The only Cincinnati digital station they don't carry currently I believe is WSTR-DT(MyTV HD)

The same is true of Insight in Northern Ky. From what I have been able to find out (from Insight, WSTR isn't talking) Sinclair (WSTR's owners) wants to be paid extra by the cable companies to carry their digital feed. IMO, there isn't much worth watching on WSTR anyway and they are just shooting themself in the foot by not allowing the cable companies to carry the digital feed. Many feel that MyTV won't be around next fall so it will be interesting to see what happens then.

If there are any filters that block the local broadcast digital channels give TW a call and they will remove them.


Certianly agree that should be the case ... Just thought I should mention it "just in case", as I know in the past with analog cable some cableco's utilized filters to block access to certian channels/frequencies a customer wasn't subscribed to, and thought perhaps It was possible in the process some of the digital broadcast signals might "inadvertantly" get blocked as well ...



ALL the local stations except for WSTR have "must carry" agreements with the local cable companies ...


The way I read the FCC regs+reports and orders on this I think The only way must carry rights apply, currently, to carriage of digital broadcast signals is if the station is "digital only" and has no analog signal(there aren't any of those around here, but there are a few in U.S.) .... Once the station's analog shuts off, they'll have the choice of invoking Must carry, or the choice of using retransmission consent to negotiate for cable carriage of the digital station ...

Therefore, I assumed the current cable carriage agreements for the digital stations in the area were negotiated via retransmission consent rules rather than via Must carry ...

Also, Remember, whether to neogotiate for cableco carriage via Must carry or retransmission consent rules is the *stations* choice .... For instance, I'd think A station with content the cableco wants to provide to it's subscribers would probably usually want to use retransmission consent -- which can involve *deals* for this and that(such as hey, we want our SD multicast weather channel on your basic tier/analog cable - and *that's just an possible example* not representative of anything that "actually" may have happened!), or even Ca$h/per subscriber fees/etc ...

I think it's probably a little different for non-comms -- for instance, for certian reasons relating to cableco's public interest requirements, In general they probably definitely want the "educational" programming the PBS affiliates provide, Including all those SD services(subchannels) from the digital stations ..

LP stations such as WBQC-CA have no rights to invoke must carry, and currently, unfortunetly, cableco's/DBS don't seem to want to carry them ... The latter, IMO (in the case of WBQC especially, WOTH-LP too), which is just too bad for those folks without OTA, many of whom probably don't know what they are missing from them ....

Oh --- Also, Some have different opinions and interpetations(and it's been much a much discussed and debated issue on AVSforum), however, personally(and yes this is just my personal(but well informed I believe "opinion") -- but I "interpet" current FCC regulations as requiring any and *all* broadcast signals(including digital TV/HD signals) a cableco carries(whether via must carry *or* retransmission consent ) to be available via QAM (in the clear and unencrypted as you say) on the lowest priced, most "basic" tier of service ... They are not, however required to provide the equipment to receive/decode those signals ...

What is known so far regarding that is that FCC doesn't seem to be enforcing that in any *visable* fashion, and also that at one point, the commission asked for comments from interested parties in an NPRM, stating they thought allowing placement of HD broadcast signals on a higher priced tier of service *might* be a good idea, but for *only* during the transistion .... Of course, the NPRM involved was back in 2001, and there so far was no rulemaking on it I'm aware of, and they haven't done anything concerning the issue since then .....

One "odd" little twist to this whole thing, currently, is that The FCC doesn't allow the cableco to make a choice to "downrez" a broadcasters digital(or HD) signal to analog(or lower resolution "digital" for that matter) at the headend for distribution to say, a cableco's analog or even "basic cable" viewers(with digital or analog capabilities) .... BUT, it's OK if a broadcaster *asks* them to do it .... That very well may change by the time the transistion is over, as otherwise, a cableco may be required to supply *every* viewer with a "digital cable" STB ....



The same is true of Insight in Northern Ky. From what I have been able to find out (from Insight, WSTR isn't talking) Sinclair (WSTR's owners) wants to be paid extra by the cable companies to carry their digital feed. IMO, there isn't much worth watching on WSTR anyway and they are just shooting themself in the foot by not allowing the cable companies to carry the digital feed. Many feel that MyTV won't be around next fall so it will be interesting to see what happens then.

While I see your point(about the shooting themself in the foot), I can't say I agree,(other than that there's not much worth watching on WSTR these days - I do agree with that!) --- and, sinclair's posistion(not WSTR specifically, necessarily) has been debated so many times here on AVS I'll "defer" from a conversation on that issue at this point ;) .......

But, interestingly enough -- Time Warner Dayton DOES carry Sinclair stations WRGT-DT(Fox HD Dayton - Sinclair operated) and WKEF-DT(ABC HD Dayton - Sinclair owned) .... If they didn't have those, they wouldn't have much, since they don't carry/haven't reached an agreement with WDTN-DT(NBC HD Dayton - owned by LIN) or WBDT-DT (CW HD Dayton - Owned by ACME ) ...

Unless something has changed, I don't believe TW Columbus has come to agreement with Sinclair to carry Columbus digital stations WTTE-DT(Fox HD) or
WSYX-DT (ABC HD) ....

sorry for all the parenteses, I've been trying to cut down on those!

Hi! I'm fairly new to the HD world and I have some questions. I received a 32" LCD TV over Christmas and it has an HD tuner. I just get normal cable from TW (not digital or satellite cable) - just your typical cnn, espn, etc.

I set up the tv, did auto-search with the cable (no antenna) and I get a variety of stations - 5.1, 5.2, 19.1, 19.2, 105 (Discovery HD), TNT HD, and a ton of PBS channels.

However, I'm fairly positive there is an ABC affiliate and channels 12.1 & 12.2 (I would assume that's CBS and carrying the CW?). Those are the only channels I'm really interested in getting - the other ones are just a bonus - and it really doesn't matter if I get Dayton stations. I really just want to get an ABC station and CBS and the CW. I'm in Oakley in Cincinnati. If I get an additional antenna, that should hopefully pick up these stations? Would I need to do anything else? Would the rabbit ears hopefully be strong enough to pick up those stations?
Wow, odd. I had the very same issue with my mother's new tv last month except it was WLWT-DT that would not show up. I havent been back over there since Xmas to rescan to see if it finally appeared (which I suspect it will).

OK. I'm using WatchHDTV and I have a question about some channels I don't seem to be getting. I get 48-1 and 48-2, but no 48-3. Are others getting this channel, and if so, any ideas why I would not be getting it?

Also, I started with BeyondTV, and I was getting 14-1 through 14-6 (or 16-1 through 16-6, same channels, different location) but with WatchHDTV I am only getting 16-1, none of the other multiplex channels. Again, are others getting these channels, and if so, any ideas why I would not be getting it?

48-3 does not always show up.. I catch it sometimes, so it stays in the list.. however, if I rescan and its not activated, then I dont get it.. it seems they are using it less and less and giving the majority of the bandwidth to 48-1

Hmm, don't recall seeing any programming services active on 48.3 since PBS dropped PBS kids from being delivered as a "broadcast" service, and it became a "cable only" channel .. That happened well over a year ago as I recall ... Since then(more or less), unless they temporarily added another service, what I've seen from them has been :

48.1 - PBS HD channel+occasional WCET Local HD productions (Noticed they did run upconverted SD at least a couple of days last week for Newshour+Nightly business report, though)

48.2 - PBS's "create" service (note - WPTD-DT has this one on 16.4 during the daytime hours as well).

No SD simulcast of analog 48 -- Will be interesting to see what they do regarding this after analog shut off ...

it seems they are using it less and less and giving the majority of the bandwidth to 48-1

According to this, looks like PBS' national datacast service is also coming to WCET-DT ..

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101162803&formid=317&fac_num=65666

See here for more info on PBS datacast service :

http://wkar.org/dt/info/dataNS.php


Also, I started with BeyondTV, and I was getting 14-1 through 14-6 (or 16-1 through 16-6, same channels, different location) but with WatchHDTV I am only getting 16-1, none of the other multiplex channels. Again, are others getting these channels, and if so, any ideas why I would not be getting it?


Hmm, don't recall ever seeing a "16.1" or "14.1" from WPTD-DT/WPTO-DT digital --

Here's what I get(on several different receivers) - Note that they are all different programming services -- 14.3 "ThinkTV 14 Prime" isn't the same programming as 16.3 "ThinkTV 16 prime", for instance ....

WPTO-DT 28 (remaps to 14.x) :

14.2 - 480i SD digital simulcast of analog WPTO thinkTV 14 (24/7)
14.3 - 480i SD "ThinkTV 14 Prime" (24/7)
14.4 - 480i SD "ThinkTV Learn" (except 8pm~10pm nightly when its "blank")
14.5 - 480i SD "ThinkTV World" (except 8pm~10pm nightly when it's "blank")
14.6 - 1080i HD ThinkTV 14 HD -- 8pm~10pm nightly - note is blank the rest of the time

WPTD-DT 58 OTA (remaps to 16.x)

16.2 - 480i SD digital simulcast of analog WPTD thinkTV 16(24/7)
16.3 - 480i SD digital "ThinkTV 16 Prime" (24/7)
16.4 - 480i SD digital "Create" (6am~6pm) - Note : is "blank" 6pm~6am
16.5 - 480i SD digital "Ohio channel" (6am~6pm) note : is "blank" 6pm~6am
16.6 - 1080i HD ThinkTV 16 HD (PBS HD channel) - 6pm~6am - Note is blank 6am~6pm

-------------------------------------------------------

Dunno if that helps or not -- best guess I might have might be that perhaps your equipment is not decoding their PSIP info properly ... If there is a way you can "tune" to their services without the use of PSIP, [update/correction], If you're using OTA you should probably be able to see WPTO-DT's services on 28.3~28.7, and WPTD-DT services on 58.3~58.7 ... If you're using cable/QAM, I'm not sure what the "RF" or "physical" Channel #'s would be ...

update: Oh -- I have seen occasionally+temporarily seen the PSIP stream missing from both or either WPTD-DT+WPTO-DT, so, I suppose it's possible your issue could be related to If you did a "channel scan" during those times, or, I suppose it's also possible your receiver could have became "confused" if you tuned to them during those times -- In which case, If you haven't already done so, you might want to try "rescanning" for channels and see if that fixes it ..

As long as I've went this far ... I wonder what you're getting from KET/WCVN-DT ? You should get :

WCVN-DT 24 OTA (remaps to 54.x)

54.1 - 480i SD digital KET1 (24/7)
54.2 - 480i SD digital KET2 (24/7)
54.3 - 480i SD digital KET3 - except 8pm~12am, when it's "blank"
54.4 - 480i SD digital KET4 - except 8pm 12am
54.4 - PBS HD at 720p - 8pm~12am
54.5 - 480i SD - digital KET5 - Only active with programming when KY general assembly is in session with House coverage.
54.6 - 480i SD - dkgital KET6 - Only active with programming when KY general assembly is in session with senate coverage.

Looks like, at the time of this post, WKRC-DT is having some difficulties and they're not passing on the HD signal. WHIO-DT is not having such difficulties.

First the HD signal was bad - now it is SD. The SD channel is now jumpy.

Anyone else having this problem?

I am on TW Cable

Same problems here. SD signal is extremely grainy for me also

Now watching in HD...Seems to be fixed

My HD picture seems to be back now on WKRC-HD

just for giggles.. wkrc is typically giving between 14-16 mbps to 12-1. Occasionally it will spike to 16.5 or so and dip to 13 or so - that being said the muxer is working really well.. on static screens (player stats or something) it cranks the bandwidth to 12-2 but during long pass plays, 12.1 spikes over 15 or so.. still would be better to get rid of 12-2, but we know that aint happening any time soon

jim

just for giggles.. wkrc is typically giving between 14-16 mbps to 12-1. Occasionally it will spike to 16.5 or so and dip to 13 or so - that being said the muxer is working really well.. on static screens (player stats or something) it cranks the bandwidth to 12-2 but during long pass plays, 12.1 spikes over 15 or so.. still would be better to get rid of 12-2, but we know that aint happening any time soon

jim

For more giggles, watch the bitrates during the day (during SD) sometime. I've seen 12-1 and 12-2 almost even, with 12-1 getting a bit under 9 Mbps and 12-2 getting a bit under 8 Mbps. That seems like good use of stat muxing.

I wonder if 12-1 will get a bigger boost than normal for the Super Bowl. I would certainly hope so... Even though the stat muxing seems to be working well, NFL Football and NCAA Basketball are looking pretty pixelated these days, and now that WHIO is multicasting as well, we don't have another source to go to. I wish WKRC would bump up the priority on 12-1 during high-profile, demanding events such as these, especially when we know hardly anyone is watching the re-runs or informercials playing on CinCW opposite an NFL game on Sunday.

Time Warner to carry WSTR's digital signal locally
Cincinnati Business Courier - 11:19 AM EST Monday

Time Warner subscribers in the Cincinnati area will be able to pick up WSTR-TV's digital signal, thanks to an agreement between its parent, Sinclair Broadcast Group, and the cable company.

Under the three-year agreement, Time Warner Cable will carry the analog and digital signals for 35 Sinclair-owned television stations in 22 markets, according to a news release.

WSTR Channel 64, a WB Network affiliate, is Sinclair's only local television property. Time Warner subscribers already can receive the station's analog signal.

Sinclair (NASDAQ: SBGI), headquartered in Hunt Valley, Md., owns, operates or provides services to 58 television stations in 36 markets. Tine Warner Cable is a unit of Time Warner Inc. (NYSE: TWX), headquartered in New York.

Heh, WB affiliate. Nothing better than a brand new press release with extremely outdated information. Only if there was interesting HD content on WSTR-DT.

Do we know whether the issues at the beginning of the AFC Championship game on CBS on Sunday were a CBS issue or a WKRC issue? I was watching at someone else's house so wasn't able to check WHIO like I normally would in that situation...

Thanks Nitewatchman for the input. I didn't know that 48.3 was cable-only, so that I can't receive it OTA. I'm only 2 months in to OTA.

I don't know why, but I'm getting ThinkTV 14 now. I did re-install HDTV over the weekend, so that may have had something to do with it. Glad to have it now. Thanks, NWM.

FYI, 16 I get with 20% or less signal, so my current amplified indoor antenna will never touch that. 54, I get @ 40% signal with no picture. (Strange--I'm in Walton, transmitter is in Covington....I can't get it?)

Does anyone have any yea or nays on the Channel Master 3020 antenna? Looks good for my price range. Gonna try it with no rotor first, maybe add one later.

Do we know whether the issues at the beginning of the AFC Championship game on CBS on Sunday were a CBS issue or a WKRC issue? I was watching at someone else's house so wasn't able to check WHIO like I normally would in that situation...

I did mention earlier the WHIO-DT feed was not affected.

I did mention earlier the WHIO-DT feed was not affected.

Indeed you did. Sorry I missed that, but thanks for the info.

FYI, 16 I get with 20% or less signal, so my current amplified indoor antenna will never touch that.


In case you didn't know, That one's in Dayton ... about 58~60 miles or so from Walton ...

Be careful with "amplified" antennas when you're relatively close to the towers ... In short, easy to get too much signal +overload things .. It's possible That might be part of your problem with WCVN(54), although It may be more of an antenna placement/aiming/"multipath" thing ...

OTOH, a preamp(with say a nice, directional antenna on the roof) would probably be a Plus for you for Dayton(or Lexington) stations, and you may be far enough away from most of the Cincy stations for the "overload" issues to be much of a problem ....

this sort of thing can be a bit of a "balancing act" ...



54, I get @ 40% signal with no picture. (Strange--I'm in Walton, transmitter is in Covington....I can't get it?)


WCVN transmitter is actually in Taylor Mill, near I-275 (I get it fine up here from 39 miles, BTW) ... Covington I believe is their "Community of License", which is how most stations are listed on most lists, and what it says on their FCC permits(although, the actual location of the transmitting antenna is listed in FCC info as well) ... For another example, WKOI (43) Community of License is Richmond, Indiana, and they are considered to be in the Dayton DMA -- But, they actually transmit from within Cincinnati DMA, from a tower between Oxford+Trenton, Ohio ...

From Walton -- It's in the opposite direction, but you should also be able to pull in WKON 52 (DT on 44), KET Owenton (all the programming services are the same on all the KET statewide digital transmitters, except WKMJ Louisville, their 2nd transmitter in Lousiville is handled a little differently)


Does anyone have any yea or nays on the Channel Master 3020 antenna? Looks good for my price range. Gonna try it with no rotor first, maybe add one later.

CM3020 seems like a decent choice to me for an inexpensive, medium sized "all in one" VHF/FM/UHF combo antenna ... If you want, Stick it outside and it will likely improve your Dayton reception as well ... What's nice about N KY is that you've got a good shot at getting all Dayton and Cincinnati with a single antenna heading ... But, from Walton, You've got a good shot at Lexington as well, so a Rotor may still also be desireable ...

Really depends upon what you want -- for example, If you want the best possible results from Dayton or Lexington from your location, an "all in one" antenna solution such as CM3020 may not be the best choice ...

Update/Corrections to above: Oops! I had apparently misplaced Walton, KY's location in my "memory banks" ;) .... Looking at a map, It appears to be located a bit farther south than I had thought, therefore I edited above comments accordingly ...

Time Warner to carry WSTR's digital signal locally
Cincinnati Business Courier - 11:19 AM EST Monday

Time Warner subscribers in the Cincinnati area will be able to pick up WSTR-TV's digital signal, thanks to an agreement between its parent, Sinclair Broadcast Group, and the cable company.



Does anyone know if this is live on TWC? If so, what channel?

Does anyone know if this is live on TWC? If so, what channel?

As of last night TWC had not yet added this channel

While watching a couple shows on ABC, there was a severe rapid clicking/popping problem for maybe 30 seconds. I rewound the show and it occurred in the same spot in the recording. The last time I heard it was while watching Grey's Anatomy last night.

I'm not sure if this is a WCPO-DT, HR20, or MPEG4 encoding problem. I haven't had this problem with any other station that I can recall so I don't believe this would be a HR20 or MPEG4 problem, but I'm certainly not ruling it out.

Has anyone else heard this?

terry - the audio problems were ota as well.. plus, jeopardy was not in hd last night..

how do you like the hr20?? got mine tuesday and the jury is still out.. has a lot of promise - but the ui seems clunky when compared to tivo.. but only time will tell..

jim

I doubt anything will match the TiVo GUI. I'm still uncertain where some of the bugs I'm seeing lie. A tech is supposed to come out and fix a signal problem I'm having with one of the dish feeds that is either caused by the line, connectors, and/or the LNB. At this point I have to start playing a show while it's recording to make sure it is indeed recording, but I think this problem is related to my signal problem.

Other than my signal problem and the bugs it may be causing with the HR20, I definitely like the box better than the SA8300HD. I also like that there is an obvious effort to fix the bugs in the box.

I can definitely tell they designed the box as a TiVo replacement, but they had to make it slightly different of course. I am also somewhat interested in it's ability to be networked and display pictures and stream music from my computer. I ran some preliminary tests and I am planning on running an Ethernet cable from my computer room to the living room.

The one major DVR feature I miss on this box is the automatic jump back after fast forwarding. I have been told they can't have that feature as it is a TiVo patent, but how does the SA8300HD get away with it? Oh well, I'm starting to use the 30 second skip instead of FFWD.

So once the tech fixes my signal problem, I'll have a better idea of how reliable the box is.

While watching a couple shows on ABC, there was a severe rapid clicking/popping problem for maybe 30 seconds. I rewound the show and it occurred in the same spot in the recording. The last time I heard it was while watching Grey's Anatomy last night.

I'm not sure if this is a WCPO-DT, HR20, or MPEG4 encoding problem. I haven't had this problem with any other station that I can recall so I don't believe this would be a HR20 or MPEG4 problem, but I'm certainly not ruling it out.

Has anyone else heard this?Did you report this to the engineer at WCPO? He was very helpful last time I contacted, and I know this sort of feedback is much appreciated. He typically fixes these things pretty fast...

Thanks for the suggestion. I just got off the phone and let them know of the issue, but of course I'm not very helpful since I didn't keep the recording and I don't remember the time mark where the problem occurred. He didn't have a problem and didn't keep the recording from last night either, but he's going to check with some of the other engineers.

So I told him if/when it happens again I will keep the recording and also take note of the time the problem occurs and keep the recording. I would like to widen the sample pool with any of you guys that may watch/record HD shows from WCPO-DT so if you run into this audio issue please contact the engineering department with a time of the occurrence and if possible keep the recording for any further questions.

For the record, I didn't notice any problems with WCPO last night during Grey's through TWC.

Thanks for the suggestion. I just got off the phone and let them know of the issue, but of course I'm not very helpful since I didn't keep the recording and I don't remember the time mark where the problem occurred. He didn't have a problem and didn't keep the recording from last night either, but he's going to check with some of the other engineers.

So I told him if/when it happens again I will keep the recording and also take note of the time the problem occurs and keep the recording. I would like to widen the sample pool with any of you guys that may watch/record HD shows from WCPO-DT so if you run into this audio issue please contact the engineering department with a time of the occurrence and if possible keep the recording for any further questions.

I'm afraid I watched the program off of my SA8300HD and did not notice any popping or clicking sound. Can you remember about where it happened? I think I still have the recording.

The one major DVR feature I miss on this box is the automatic jump back after fast forwarding. I have been told they can't have that feature as it is a TiVo patent, but how does the SA8300HD get away with it? Oh well, I'm starting to use the 30 second skip instead of FFWD.

Patents are generally very specific. For example, I have a Sony VCR that has the jump back feature, and had it well before TiVo ever hit the market. Given that, TiVo would have needed to put in some specific language to separate their patent from the Sony design. Perhaps something to do with harddisk recording versus video tape. Maybe the SA8300HD has something about its jump back feature that they believe make it different than TiVo.

Anyone else having issues with WCPO reception this afternoon during the NBA game? I"m breaking up and freezing. Could just be me but WCPO is usually the last channel to have a problem for me.

This morning WCPO-DT 9.2 had children's programming on "per FCC requirements". We just wanted to check the snow forecast, and then my 3 year old wouldn't let me change the channel! oh well. Anyone see any children's programming on the Tube yet? Wiggles marathon perhaps?

Anyone see any children's programming on the Tube yet?

Yes. Something about Animals on WXIX-DT 19.2 labeled with the "E/I" bug .... I think it was last Saturday morning I noticed that ...

Yes. Something about Animals on WXIX-DT 19.2 labeled with the "E/I" bug .... I think it was last Saturday morning I noticed that ...


Yes, I noticed the animals on 19-2 as well on Saturday morning. I haven't seen any E/I on 5-2 though...

It was my understanding that weather coverage was considered E/I, but I guess either it's not or WCPO either doesn't know this or it is not clear yet and is airing E/I just to be safe???

Terry,
Most of the audio issues are with the HR-20 box. Last S/W update made noticable improvements. Don't let the D* tech go without checking ALL tuners. I really like the HR20, even with the current issues, it'll only get better.

It was my understanding that weather coverage was considered E/I,

Not that I'm aware of as far as the FCC rules on this go .... Haven't researched it lately, however ....

I, on the other hand consider a service such as WCPO-DT's 9.2 to be BOTH a public service AND, certianly could have educational aspects on a 24/7 basis (such as say, for a student monitoring weather conditions in the area from different locations/etc, or just for "learning" about the weather in a general sense ) ...

But, I'm not the commission, LOL ....

Terry,
Most of the audio issues are with the HR-20 box. Last S/W update made noticable improvements.

I would agree except the audio bug I experienced seemed to be limited to a specific point in the program and has been limited to one station.

I will say that after my LNB was replaced late night on Friday, I haven't had any problems with my HR20. I did feel that most of the recording/surfing problems I was experiencing were related to my LNB bug, but until it was fixed I couldn't know for sure.

Not sure what's going on but suddenly can't get a signal on Fox 45 Dayton from Mason, OH. This is typically one of my strongest channels. Is something wrong? Weather? 24 in SD sucks! :(

Not sure what's going on but suddenly can't get a signal on Fox 45 Dayton from Mason, OH. This is typically one of my strongest channels. Is something wrong? Weather? 24 in SD sucks! :(

Check the Dayton, OH thread.

Something is going on with 45-1 and 45-2.

Several have reported it.

I have a QAM Tuner on my HD Set. I have TWC Basic Cable service. When I do a scan for the channels, 9, 12, and 19 (and their sub-channels) are not there. What do I need to say to TWC to get these channels?

Thanks in advance.

I have a QAM Tuner on my HD Set. I have TWC Basic Cable service. When I do a scan for the channels, 9, 12, and 19 (and their sub-channels) are not there. What do I need to say to TWC to get these channels?

Thanks in advance.

Unless the frequencies are being blocked by a filter on your line, you most likely HAVE the channels, just not at the channel numbers you expect. It's been a while since I've had TWC, but certain channels mapped to correct channel numbersfor me (5 and PBS channels come to mind), but others did not. I found them in the 80-86 range. I can't remember exactly, but check those channels, you'll most likely find your missing channels. 86.1 and 86.2 come to mind, I think that MAY be for channel 9.1 and 9.2, but don't hold me to that. Just check out the channels yourself, see what you find.

Some say that after a couple days the channels will suddenly map to the correct channel numbers, I never experienced that.

Here's the last note I made to myself with the channel numbers. I just use the QAM as back up to the SA8300 (and to prove to myself that I could find the channels)

WLWT 84.1 but usually 5.1
KET 84.2
WXIX 85.2 and 85.28
WCET 85.7
WXIX 19.1
WKRC 107.21
WCPO 107.31

But they move around. I don't think TWC cares about QAM so they seem to move them when the need space to do other moves.

Here's the last note I made to myself with the channel numbers. I just use the QAM as back up to the SA8300 (and to prove to myself that I could find the channels)

WLWT 84.1 but usually 5.1
KET 84.2
WXIX 85.2 and 85.28
WCET 85.7
WXIX 19.1
WKRC 107.21
WCPO 107.31

But they move around. I don't think TWC cares about QAM so they seem to move them when the need space to do other moves.

I was under the impression that cable companies were required to to send these digital signals for local stations to subscribers for free no matter what the subscription level. Correct?

Technically, but some stations are taking advantage of a loophole in that matter by requiring local cable cos. to pay for the rights to broadcast the signals through the cable system. There's a thread dedicated to just Sinclair Broadcast Group's issues with the cable cos. Here's a link to the first page (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=500356) / Here's a link to the last current post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=500356&goto=lastpost)

I was under the impression that cable companies were required to to send these digital signals for local stations to subscribers for free no matter what the subscription level. Correct?


Well, it isn't "free" as noone gets cable for "free"(unless they're "stealing it"), and that's not the issue here, as TW Does send the local digital signals they carry as "unencrypted" via QAM ...

But --- first to answer your question as best I can --- some have different interpetations, and there has been much debate+discussion of this on AVSforum, but the best answer I can provide is :As I read and understand the rules on this, unless they are found to face "effective competition" in the market per a FCC order, per FCC rules on this cableco's are required to provide ALL the broadcast signals they *carry*(including digital signals, and regardless of whether the signals are carried via must carry or retransmission consent) to ALL subscribers, including their most basic or "lifeline" tier of service. They are not required to provide the equipment to decode the digital signals, and they are not currently allowed to "downrez" digital signals(to analog, or from HD to SD/etc) unless the broadcaster ASKS for it.

However :

#1). It's not been the case concerning any cableco around here which I'm aware of, but it has been the case that in other areas, some cableco's *HAVE* made the digital broadcast/HD signals available only with subscprition to higher "digital" tiers, and it seems(and this is just coming from second hand info/reports), in those cases FCC did not seem to enforce their rules on this.

#2). In 2001 NPRM(notice of proposed rulemaking) FCC asked for comments from interested parties, basically concerning whether or not it might be a good idea to allow cableco's to place the "HD" versions of signals from broadcasters on a seperate, higher level tier of service. Basically, they also stated that the commission "thought" that might be advisable/a good idea, but ONLY during the transistion period, NOT for after the analogs shut off. Since then, they have not addressed that issue any further and therefore, did not change their rules.

Given that we are now only about 2 years away from analog shut off, personally, I sort of doubt the commission is going to change much of anything regarding this, and at this point, I pretty much expect the same thing for analog broadcast signals carried via cable currently to be the case for digital broadcast signals after analog shut off (although, it's possible they may end up allowing cable to downrez digital to analog at the cablehead end w/o the broadcaster "asking for it", in order to serve analog only cable households with those signals without the need to provide them with a "digital" converter) .... But that's just my "opinion" ...

----------------------------------------------------------------------


Now, as far as the "channel numbers" go, I think there may be some confusion here ....

First ... QAM is the signal modulation used for ALL digital cable signals these days, so certianly, the cableco "cares" about QAM ... However, a cableco supplied STB utilizes a "virtual channel numbering" "scheme" per TW's preference, in TW's case, I believe it follows some sort of "Tier" structure, and for instance, they have the broadcast digital signals in the 900 series ... 905 for WLWT-DT, 948 for WCET-DT HD/etc .... User supplied QAM tuners do not "recognize" or use those channel #'s ... Now, keep in mind, THOSE channel numbers do not correspond "directly" to the actual frequencies the cableco uses to send those signals over the cable.... --- BUT, those with user supplied QAM tuners which are seeing some stations show up on channels such as "86.1", or 107.1" do correspond "directly" to the actual frequencies used, per the channel/frequency chart you can find here : http://www.csgnetwork.com/tvfreqtable.html

Secondly, Broadcasters send "channel remapping" info via something called "PSIP" ... For instance, OTA, WLWT-DT transmits on Channel UHF Channel 35(596~602MHZ), but it shows up on most OTA receivers via "PSIP" on 5.1. Broadcasters send that "channel remapping" info to cableco's as well(it's part of their datastream, the same datastream that either OTA or cable viewers receive), and in the best of circumstances, it really *should* work so that it "shows up" on 5.1 for cable viewers with user supplied "QAM" tuners as well ... But, as reports here seem to indicate, it doesn't "allways" work out like that, in which case, we probably don't know in any given circumstance whether or not it is a problem with PSIP implementation at the cable head end, or a problem with the user's equipment concerning properly "decoding" that PSIP, *or* a problem at the station. In most,(probably all) cases, it's probably not the latter, otherwise, folks would probably be having problems OTA as well.

I'm not sure whether or not the cableco's are actually "required" to pass through that PSIP info -- There have been posts here in the past that seemed to indicate TW Cincy doesn't "strip" the PSIP info, but, only changes the PID(packet identifiers) for the streams from the station so the streams will be compatiable for distribution via their system. I don't know whether or not that may or may not potentially cause some problems involving PSIP. Of course, they also have to modulate the signal as QAM on their chosen frequency or "channel slot".

Oh, one other thing regarding this -- The reason why you might see "107.1" or "107.2"/(or something similar) for those "QAM channels" rather than just "107" is because, with QAM 256, they can fit approx 38Mb/s in ONE 6MHZ wide "channel"(the "entire channel 107, more or less). With analog signal, you can only fit one analog NTSC signal within that 6MHZ, whether it is sent via cable, or via OTA. With Digital however -- OTA, there's "room" for 19.39Mb/s data payload within each 6MHZ channel -- A station can fit a single, high quality HD service in that amount of bandwidth, or several SD services, among other possibilities, but, they can't "expand" the amount of bandwidth(19.39Mb/s) available.

Via the signal modulation used for OTA (8VSB), the rest of the bandwidth available in the 6MHZ RF channel is necessarily used up for Error correction, to allow for a robust transmission/reception via the airwaves .... you don't need to use up as many "bits" for error correction when you're sending a signal over a wire, therefore, with QAM via cable, you have approx twice as much bandwidth available per 6MHZ channel ... About 38Mb/s, or enough room to fit the entire payload from TWO digital broadcast signals. But keep in mind, there could be say, 4 or more different sd multicast "channels" within EACH of those two broadcast stations - For instance, KET has 6 program services(some refer to them as "subchannels") which all "fit" within their 19.39Mb/s(max) datastream ...

Hence, you have channel 107 "slot 1" and channel 107 "slot 2"/etc ...

I know this is getting "complicated"(and probably unecessarily long!), and I'm probably not explaining it very well, but I wanted to mention it to demonstrate a bit of the difference between QAM channel "slots"(such as 107.1/ 107.2), and Multicast services via a broadcast station -- such as 19.1 for Fox HD from WXIX-DT and 19.2 for "the tube" via PSIP - via MPEG2 transport stream PMT/PAT info BTW, OTA, those not using PSIP would see WXIX-DT on 29.3(Fox HD) and 29.4(The tube) .... I don't know how all that "works out(or doesn't)" via any given make/model of "user supplied" QAM "tuner" ..

Technically, but some stations are taking advantage of a loophole in that matter by requiring local cable cos. to pay for the rights to broadcast the signals through the cable system.

Different issue entirely, and it has nothing to do with "loopholes".

[update/clarification]: Well, it's a different issue, but for cableco's for instance, the issue you speak of can certianly obviously have "ramifcations" regarding such things as "who is paying for what" ... [end update]

First, keep in mind Stations are *NOT* required in any shape or form to *allow* cableco's to carry their signal ....

Some stations don't qualify for "must carry"(no digital station with an analog counterpart currently does), but, basically, Stations can negotiate with the cableco via must carry rules, or retransmission consent rules - the latter can involve $$$, or other "deals", that has been the case for a long, long time, and is nothing new nor is it a "loophole" ..... [update] : Now, what may be is a little "newer" about it is the persistance with which some companies(such as sincliar) are apparently asking for $ for the retransmission rights ... But even that has been going on+widely publicized for about the last 5 years in regards to certian broadcast owners and their HD signals [end update]

when I said that 9, 12, 19 are not there. I mean that they are not even on "other" channels. I have some stuff in the 80s but it is not 9,12, or 19 I suspect that I have some kind of a filter on my line considering i have "basic cable" $10.95 / month. My question is what do I say to TWC to get the filter removed?

I have some stuff in the 80s but it is not 9,12, or 19 I suspect that I have some kind of a filter on my line considering i have "basic cable" $10.95 / month.


Could be, but there are/may be other possibilities as well, including the possibility that it may not be the cableco's fault+could be an issue with the QAM "tuner" in your TV in regards to it's "compatiability" to how TW's has it set up .... For instance, If I recall correctly, there may be some QAM "tuners" that don't support the full range of frequencies some providers use ..... It's not the cableco's responsibility to take care of those things, and in which case, unfortunetly you're pretty much on your own ...

Or, it might be something simple, such as if you have a splitter in line that is only rated up to 600MHZ or so ....


My question is what do I say to TWC to get the filter removed?

I dunno ... Maybe explain it to them pretty much as you have to us here ? Hopefully, you'll be able to get hold of someone there who is knowledgable about these issues, but Unfortunetly, I think it's very possible you may not receive an adequete, or accurate response, and it's not out of the realm of possibilities that they might say something along the lines of "you can't do that, you need to get "digital cable" and one of our boxes" ....

Don't mean for this to sound negative, It's just that, concerning the new world of DTV/HD, it can get quite complicated, and some issues can be quite confusing for even those "in the know", even in some cases for folks you might think should "know better" concerning this issue or that ...

In any event, let us know how it goes ....

While the problem could be a filter, the problem is more likely in your home. I had the same problem when Insight started putting the unencrypted digital channels on the high channels (example WCPO-DT is on 116.1). I had some old splitters (installed when the cable company had only 78 analog channels). There was also a video distribution amp that was rated 50-450 MHz. The splitters were replaced with ones rated to 900 MHz and the amp was replaced with one rated 50-900 MHz. That took care of the problem.

Insight did tend to move the channels around quite a bit which required a rescan when the channel suddenly disappeared. In the last 6 months (or so) they haven't moved them much but I still do a scan about once a month to see if they added any new uncrypted ones.

As for PSAP data being passed by the cable company, I don't think that is a requirement. I know that Insight doesn't on any of its unencrypted digital channels.

Also, as Jeff has mentioned, I have seen "compatiability" issues on ATSC/QAM tuners. I had a neighbor that bought some STB and he could not get some unencrypted channels that are on the cable (they show "scrambled video"). The STB does have a signal meter and it shows in the 80s for the two stations he can not receive. I don't know exactly what the issue is but you can run into that. Some TVs (or STBs) have a diagnostic mode that you can go into to see exactly how the station is being sent. Insight is using both 256QAM and 64QAM and now has close to 300 digital stations on their system. The local broadcast channels, Insight's promo channels, and some (audio) music channels are unencrypted.

A while back TW dropped INHD2 from their line up. The channel went off the air. We are still paying the same amount for a package that has one less channel. Any word on whether they will add another channel or two.

Or is a ploy to raise the fees without actually raising the fees?

Thanks for the explanation Nitewatchman. My issue is WLWDT is missing from the channels on my mothers TV and it never has appeared. I was wondering if I had any ammo to call TimeWarner on her behalf and make them fix it. Evidently jwd45244 is wondering the same thing.

I also have troubles with the streams on 84 (wlw, ket).

My issue is WLWDT is missing from the channels on my mothers TV and it never has appeared. I was wondering if I had any ammo to call TimeWarner on her behalf and make them fix it. Evidently jwd45244 is wondering the same thing.

Keep in mind, it's possible that it could be an issue with the QAM tuner/demod in Your Mom's TV, which would not be TW's responsibility. In regards to both your+jwd45244's issues, in addition to the possible issues Bill and I mentioned, of course, there are other possibilities as well. As one example, RF interference from outside sources can leak into your cable system and cause problems on certian specific frequencies(channels) - that would seem to perhaps be more of a possibility if, for example you only have 1 channel missing, or one channel here and there, rather than an entire range of channels that correspond to a broad range of frequencies used on TW System, which if I understand correctly, may be more of the case in jwd45244's circumstance. -- Also, that sort of "RFI" or "cable ingress" issue may or may not be TW's "fault".

As far as "ammo", I'm not sure what you're asking for there, or if you asking for anything additonal. As it pertains to your original question, You shouldn't need any Ammo, as we already know TW provides the local digital broadcast signals they carry in the clear(unencrypted) via QAM on their System, and therefore those should be available to any subscriber with a "digital cable ready" QAM "tuner" in their TV(or user supplied PC tuner card or STB with QAM) ...

But, If you call them, and they happen to say something along the lines of "you need to subscribe to digital cable in order to get those channels", follows are some links to posts in other threads detailing the FCC rules on the matter, as well as what the commission is on record saying about those rules in case it's of any use :

The rules, as it pertains to this issue as codified in the Code of Federal Regulations are quoted and detailed(and links are provided to the "full" sections of Code of Federal regulations involved) by another poster here :

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7307889&&#post7307889

In the other posts at thread at above link, you'll also find a bit of discussion of those rules, as well as in this more recent thread :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=774494&page=1&pp=30&highlight=cable+carriage+requirement

Additionally, FCC addressed issues concerning cable carriage of digital broadcast signals in portions of a Report and Order from 2001, available in its entirity here:

http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Cable/Orders/2001/fcc01022.pdf

I also detailed/quoted the relevant portions of the R&O at above link in this post :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9215225&&#post9215225

------------------------------------------------------------------

Hope that helps, I think the links above cover about all the info there is on this subject, currently ...

So, has WSTR-DT/MYTV HD popped up yet on TW Cincy cable?

This post in another thread(from a usually reliable source) may have some info that may be related to that issue to some degree, and may be of interest to some ..... :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9648784&&#post9648784

Hey Weasel, with the impending SuperBowl and word of other CBS affiliates getting DD5.1, any news? Do you happen to be working on any last minute upgrades?

So, has WSTR-DT/MYTV HD popped up yet on TW Cincy cable?

This post in another thread(from a usually reliable source) may have some info that may be related to that issue to some degree, and may be of interest to some ..... :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9648784&&#post9648784

Well that post would lead me to believe that we won't be seeing 64 in HD on TWC. Even if TWC has a deal, if they have to pay for 64 and there won't be any big benefit (like more subscribers).

Well that post would lead me to believe that we won't be seeing 64 in HD on TWC. Even if TWC has a deal, if they have to pay for 64 and there won't be any big benefit (like more subscribers).

This was posted previously on this forum and leads me to believe we will be receiving Ch 64 HD on TWC:

Time Warner to carry WSTR's digital signal locally
Cincinnati Business Courier - 11:19 AM EST Monday

Time Warner subscribers in the Cincinnati area will be able to pick up WSTR-TV's digital signal, thanks to an agreement between its parent, Sinclair Broadcast Group, and the cable company.

Under the three-year agreement, Time Warner Cable will carry the analog and digital signals for 35 Sinclair-owned television stations in 22 markets, according to a news release.

WSTR Channel 64, a WB Network affiliate, is Sinclair's only local television property. Time Warner subscribers already can receive the station's analog signal.

Sinclair (NASDAQ: SBGI), headquartered in Hunt Valley, Md., owns, operates or provides services to 58 television stations in 36 markets. Tine Warner Cable is a unit of Time Warner Inc. (NYSE: TWX), headquartered in New York.

__________________
Jack

I just got off the phone...

TWC customer service knows nothing about it.
WSTR engineer knows nothing about it.

I'm waiting for a call back from Sinclair group corporate.
Trying to figure out who/where to call TWC corporate...

Unfortunately, the Business Couier article (posted above) is not attributed, so can't verify their source for the info.

I wouldn't be surprised that a TWC CSR doesn't know anything about it, but those of you on TWC should expect this to happen at some point.

Better article (http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070122/phm010.html?.v=74)

This agreement is, as expected, for all Sinclair affiliates so even WSTR-DT has been included in the deal.

The TWC CSR checked with their supervisors.

The WSTR engineer said corporate had not informed them about any agreement, and that my information may be in error. (However, the Sinclair group website has a press release posted on it.)

Regardless, an agreement permitting carriage does not imply plans exist to impliment such carriage or a timeframe / timetable for it. This is the information I am trying to track down.

but those of you on TWC should expect this to happen at some point.


Maybe, maybe not, and "some point" might end up being 2009 or later ...


Regardless, an agreement permitting carriage does not imply plans exist to impliment such carriage or a timeframe / timetable for it.


Exactly!


This is the information I am trying to track down.

Haven't seen anything like that ... but, here's Sinclair's press release I believe you referred to regarding the TW/Sinclair Agreement ... WSTR is listed, but, note that what it(and the article Terry posted link to) says is that the agreement "allows" TW to carry the stations(analog and digital) in the list ... It doesn't necessarily say they are going to, in any given case, although I think many of us probably assumed(which it appears may have been assuming too much) it was a given that would be the case ....

http://www.sbgi.net/press/release_2007122_201.shtml

Which is why the Business Courier article is interesting - it says "will be able to" in the very first sentence, as if they know of definite plans. The following article also says "will carry" (and attributes the statement to a TW representative)

http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6409025.html

In any event, people calling and asking "when?" will perhaps move things along - like maybe WSTR will find out that an agreement (and associated revenue stream) exists ;)

In any event, people calling and asking "when?" will perhaps move things along - like maybe WSTR will find out that an agreement (and associated revenue stream) exists ;)

I'm not privy to the details of that agreement, so I'm just guessing here --- but, based on the some of the info provided in the Sinclair cable carriage thread I would venture to guess it's probably more of TW's decision concerning whether or not to dole out $$ to actually carry WSTR-DT on their system ....

So, again, just a guess but I'd guess it would probably take an awfully lot of calls to TW for them to change their mind, or perhaps more "in demand" programming/HD programming airing on WSTR-DT .... Or some combination of those ...

Got the callback from Sinclair (legal dept). Said they don't understand how/why WSTR doesn't know about it, but in any respect the terms of the agreement specify 'within 30 days of the agreement'. They also suggested I have local TWC call TWC's corporate office.

^plughplover,

Interesting ... Thanks for your work on this and for passing that along. I guess we'll see what happens ....

The TW rep quoted in the multichannel.com article above
"Time Warner director of communications Maureen Huff"

Maureen Huff, Time Warner Cable
(203)328-4807
maureen.huff@twcable.com

Hey Weasel, with the impending SuperBowl and word of other CBS affiliates getting DD5.1, any news? Do you happen to be working on any last minute upgrades?


I'd also like to know if WKRC is planning to take a little extra bandwidth from the CinCW tonight. While most network programming looks pretty good on WKRC, college basketball lately has been looking pretty bad (high motion causing lots of artifacts/macroblocking).

Hey Weasel, with the impending SuperBowl and word of other CBS affiliates getting DD5.1, any news? Do you happen to be working on any last minute upgrades?

Still no DD5.1 on the near horizon at WKRC. I will not be touching a thing prior to or during Superbowl Sunday unless there is equipment failure.

Weasel

If y'all leave now, you can be at my house for kickoff. DD 5.1, no subchannels. On the other hand, it's - 4 here. Bring firewood.

Doc

I for one don't miss DD5.1. So many of the sporting events in DD5.1 have way too much sound coming from the front of the room. I have flexibility in 2.0 where I can adjust my surround sound to my liking, which is so I can hear the crowd around me. 5.1 takes that flexibility away. You're pretty much stuck with what they feed you. I say hooray to having the Super Bowl in DD2.0!

I'll give you that, but I can change the level on the surrounds pretty easily. It's an older Panasonic, but I think I can even save the settings for 3 or 4 different sound fields. I could probably do 1 for each network. But that would mean leaving the sofa. <G>

5.1 sounds great when the stations only feed it during 5.1 programming. I don't like how WLWT and WECT always run during non 5.1 programming.


I guess will have to wait until CC sells WKRC in order to get 5.1 audio.

CBS has pretty bad 5.1 during sports. The only time anything seems to come out of the rear surrounds is when CBS is using their own graphics or music.

FOX and their fantastic 5.1 beacon gets the SB next year! :)

Tuning around tonight during prime time, (analog+digital) ... And, out of the stations inserting "school closings" -- It seems that WBQC is the only commercial station in the area which knows how to properly format AR for the program content video while they are keying in school closing info at bottom of screen, LOL ....

[ Update: well, Looks like WKRC and maybe WLWT can "get it right" during local news [end update]....

Aspect ratio is distorted on all the other commercial Analog(or SD upconvert on digital where applicable) stations -- Yes, including the "Big four" affiliates in Both Dayton+Cincinnati ---- I seem to recall WCPO USED TO format their SD video for proper AR by "squeezing in" the sides as necessary to preserve proper AR, but that isn't the case tonight ...

Maybe it's just me that can't stand such distortions, but I have a hard time understanding how anyone can watch that ! Seriously, even if it was my favorite show, I'd have to turn off the TV and read a book or do something else rather than to watch that ugliness! LOL ..

WHIO-DT Dayton is even doing it tonight with the HD video from CBS, so I guess one might expect someday we'll see much of the same from other stations during HD, once more of them have the capability to insert local graphics/crawls/etc. into HD programming ...


Sorry for the rant, sigh ...

Sorry for the rant, sigh ...
I feel that your rant is very justified. I was just saying to my better half what a mess WKRC-DT was making out the CBS HD feed this evening. Letterman isn't even in HD right now. They are showing it in SD with the school stuff on the bottom. I guess that they STILL haven't figured out how to provide HD and school information.

I'll be glad when Clear Channel sells WKRC. Hopefully, the company that buys it will be more serious about HD and will do whatever it takes (new engineers?, better training?, new equipment?) to do HDTV properly.

^ I was going to watch Letterman last night - HD or SD, but couldn't tolerate it, as the video was distorted on WHIO/WHIO-DT(The latter HD), and WKRC/WKRC-DT. So, I turned the TV off.

I can live with the school closings or weather info, when necessary, and even SD if necessary or a weak, snowy analog signal from 70 miles away if it's something I really want to watch, but not distortion of aspect ratio.

For me, a good analogy might be, It would be like trying to listen to an orchestra with 1/2 the players producing tones 5HZ or so higher than the other 1/2 .....

WAVE 3 Louisville(analog, can't get the digital) did appear to be doing things right when I checked it during "Today show" this morning ... with their school closings info, the video "window" was resized with "borders" on the sides such that proper aspect ratio resulted, just as WCPO USED to usually do. Also, When I looked this morning, while WCPO is covering up a bit of the bottom, and "squeezing in the sides" a little as well, there's still a noticable distortion ... WLWT was covering up a bit of the bottom, but didn't appear they were doing anything on the sides, thus the distortion was a little worse than WCPO's, and the rest appeared to be pretty much just squeezing stuff in on the bottom --- In Cincy, for FOX19 News and for the rest, for Net/Syndicated programming.

I guess that they STILL haven't figured out how to provide HD and school information.

The problem isn't that the knowledge to do HD Bugs/Crawls, etc isn't available. We KNOW how to do it. Equipment isn't here.

I'll be glad when Clear Channel sells WKRC. Hopefully, the company that buys it will be more serious about HD and will do whatever it takes (new engineers?, better training?, new equipment?) to do HDTV properly.

To say we need to be replaced is a little extreme don't you think. All bugs/crawl, etc are used on HD when the situation dictates. As in bad weather and large amounts of school closed. If you watched superbowl coverage the HD wasn't removed then. Nor was it dropped for Criminal Minds after the game. HD is NOT dropped every single time there is a bug/crawl event.

I supposed you think all the engineers at all the stations in this area should be replaced since HD crawls and bugs are missing from them also.

When sponsors want commericals in HD you will find that the equipment starts to magically appear since you must remember this is a business and money makes it all tick.

For those that want DD5.1. Try sending appropriate email to the management telling them. Posting it here will not get you many eyeballs on what you are saying.

I also am a viewer as is my wife and family. I want the same things that everyone else wants. But there needs to be justification and such.

As for the AR distortion people complain no matter how we do it. It has been done many ways and people just seem to complain no matter what. Do the current way of shrinking from the bottom up will continue until someone here changes it. More complain if there are black bars on the sides then they do with the current bottom up shrink.

Guess ya just can't please everyone.

Weasel

As for the AR distortion people complain no matter how we do it. It has been done many ways and people just seem to complain no matter what. Do the current way of shrinking from the bottom up will continue until someone here changes it. More complain if there are black bars on the sides then they do with the current bottom up shrink.


I wonder how many folks complain about the "black bars" on ESPN News ? It's almost a permanent feature for them to reduce horizontal size in order to "squeeze in" the scores at the bottom of screen w/o distorting AR, via a graphic that is pretty much the same size as the school closing graphics from the locals .... The other ESPN channels do it all the time to some extent as well .... Don't think I've ever seen them distort AR of the programming in order to do that ...

I certianly expected all you said above is true before I made any posts concerning this. I don't mean to single WKRC out where this issue is concerned, as with a couple of exceptions, these days it seems nearly every station is distorting AR while providing the school closings info -- Nevertheless, In WKRC's case, I think it is interesting that currently, for whatever reasons it turns out to be the case(other than the CBS HD feed) when the school closings are inserted, AR is distorted during CBS+Syndicated programming from WKRC, but not during Local 12 news coverage.

While I understand part of that may be due to the control available to the local production in terms of what portion of the frame will contain the important information that needs to be visable to the viewer --- otherwise, just going by what I can "see" from the product, I can only assume perhaps it's more important to WKRC for folks to see Rob and Kit in their proper "porportions", and the school closings banner along with a "perfect north slopes" bug taking up about 2x or more screen height than would be necessary with a scrolling crawl with a single line of text than it is for folks to see non-distorted CBS or syndicated programming or commercials ....

Also, I'm sure there are folks with 4x3 sets who complain when they have "black bars" on bottom+top of screen when letterboxed 16x9 content is broadcast in a 4x3 format(NTSC, 480i 4x3 SD/etc). But, for example, you don't see NBC affiliates doing a center cut of "ER" or distorting the AR so the picture "fills up" 4x3 screens due to such complaints, and I'm afraid there is more 16x9 content in the future, not less.

Should a station start distorting AR in that case to fill the screens of 4x3 sets just because/if they were to happen to get a lot of complaints about it? Personally, I don't think so ...

I guess the big thing about this I don't understand is, and why I decided to post about it at all is : As far back as I can recall, stations have been providing school closing and weather/emergency info via "crawls", but, for the most part I think it's only been fairly recently distortion of AR for long periods during programming has become a "signficant" issue ...


Guess ya just can't please everyone.


No, you can't. If others(including yourself, the majority of your viewers, the CBS folks and your advertisers., the stations GM and talent and on and on) like it or can "tolerate it", fine. But, My eyeballs will not be watching the distorted pictures, it's as simple as that .... that's all I'm saying ... No big deal, it's only TV, one can easily turn the channel+watch something else, or turn it off and do something else ....

It seems that WBQC is the only commercial station in the area which knows how to properly format AR for the program content video while they are keying in school closing info at bottom of screen, LOL ....


Besides adding WCPO-DT during the HD feed last night to WBQC for the above(when WCPO-DT keyed in the school closings/weather info crawls last night into ABC HD, they did it in effect much the "same way" WBQC did -- i.e. - Just cover up the bottom - which is one way of doing it without distorting AR) :

On second thought, I perhaps should have tried to find better words to describe what I was trying to say above ... Apologize to anyone who thought that was intended as some sort of "complaint" or "slam" involving the "know how" or knowlegdge of local engineers, it wasn't .. after rereading it, I can certianly understand how it may have easily been taken that way ...

So, To clarify the above :

I did not intend "knows how", above to refer to engineers at stations not "knowing" how to properly format AR ...

Instead, I merely meant to say(without writing a book about it), when tuning around it was evident that many stations were distorting aspect ratio in order to "squeeze in" the school closing info. While, at the same time, with "short" wording also indicating in some fashion that this sort of thing can, and has been done without distorting AR, and that in fact, as I recall it WAS done w/o altering AR by even most stations in the area as the "norm" up until fairly recently (say the past several years or so) .....

Furthermore, you have to understand, my feelings on this sort of thing is that it should be considered to be *sooooo wrong* to purposely distort the video content in this manner. And, from that perspective, I'm extremely surprised that anyone at the stations(or any *professional* provider of video, via airwaves, sat or cable or whatever) would even consider it. And, I also don't think the folks that put their sweat into the production for a Network TV show would care for it much, either ..... But again, that is just my opinion on the issue, YMMV ....

In WKRC's case, I think it is interesting that currently, for whatever reasons it turns out to be the case(other than the CBS HD feed) when the school closings are inserted, AR is distorted during CBS+Syndicated programming from WKRC, but not during Local 12 news coverage.
Is the news in HD? If it's not, the technology used to squeeze a 4x3 picture to the proper OAR is pretty old, pretty cheap, and pretty well-deployed. 16x9 OAR squeezing is a whole different matter.
________________

Perhaps you guys should come and live in DC. Here, WUSA-DT (CBS) has their local news in HD, and when there's closings info, they preserve the OAR in a manner that even analog viewers can see a widescreen picture of the news, complete with the "9 HD" logo. It would be nice if they "centerized" the picture, as it's oriented more toward the bottom, but that's nitpicking. I've never seen other programs with closings info on WUSA, but if they can do it for the news...

If WCPO used to do closings right, perhaps you could call their engineer and see if something broke or something. Wasn't he good at answering peoples' questions?

Is the news in HD?


No, not yet. You can be assured it will be reported about here when that happens.


If it's not, the technology used to squeeze a 4x3 picture to the proper OAR is pretty old, pretty cheap, and pretty well-deployed.


I think WH Weasel and I just discussed the reasons why this is probably occuring. I don't think it is an equipment issue. As I noted earlier, in the past, I don't recall this being a problem from any local station.

For example, --- As I posted earlier -- up until recently, for instance : It was common for WCPO (SD) to resize their video(vertically+ horizontally) so that proper aspect ratio would result, regardless of what programming was airing, whenever they keyed in school closings, or any other sort of crawl/graphics at bottom of screen. And, up until the past several years, I don't recall seeing this issue be an issue from other stations in the area, either. Also, As I mentioned earlier, WAVE 3, Lousivlle, KY(which I also receive) has even done it throughout this most recent bout of school closings - when they are airing 4x3 programming -- Noticed last night, when they are airing 16x9 letterboxed programming, they are simply "overlaying" the school closings info in the "black bar area" at bottom of screen, which is a pretty cool way of doing it.

FYI, "OAR" as we usually refer to it in this forum refers to "original aspect ratio". Such as films intended to be viewed as 2.35:1, 1.66.1, 1.85:1 /etc. 16x9 is 1.77:1, 4x3=1.33:1. "pan and scan" is one way 2.35:1, 2.20:1, 1.85:1/etc. films are made to "fill the screen" on a 4x3 set, such as on a so called "Full screen(i.e. 4x3 content)" DVD. Another(better IMO) way it's done at times, when the film stock used allows it is to "open the matte" to show portions of the film frame which were not generally originally intended to be seen at the theatre ... Also, A center cut(the 4x3 area) of 16x9 HD programming(I suppose one could call that the "OAR") is how you'll often see shows on CBS, ABC/etc. presented on the analog station, currently.

I'm talking about aspect ratio mostly in terms of the vertical+horizontal size resulting in the correct propotions and linearity ... for example, 4x3 video needs to be presented as 4x3(1.33:1) in order for that to occur.

In other words, if you put a cross hatch pattern with circles up +your display is setup for proper geometry/linearity(well, as much as it is possible in some cases), and the display is adjusted properly for all used scan rates, and your equipment is setup to format the 4x3 or 16x9 NTSC or ATSC "formats" correctly(Yes, 16x9 NTSC video is a "format", often called "anamorphic widescreen" on DVD boxes) :

The distance between all the lines in the cross hatch pattern "boxes"(vertical or horizontal) should be the same, and circles should be circles - otherwise, the video is being formatted improperly at the source. in other words, in this case Linear or non-linear vertical "squeezing" that many of the stations in the area are doing while keying in the school closings which distorts those proportions improperly is currently the problem I'm addressing, here.

WKRC isn't squeezing the pic during local news from what I can tell, only during all other programming with the school closings. The crawls/tickers with the school closings/etc. seem to pretty much just replace some of the area taken by their "usual" local news graphics.

The Network HD feeds aren't effected in most cases, as only two stations in the area (WCPO-DT Cincinnati, WHIO-DT Dayton) currently have/use the capability to insert local graphics "into" HD. WHIO-DT is simply "squeezing in" their school closing graphics(without "squeezing" in the sides as well - or in other words, without adjusting Horizontal size as well -- as would be necessary for proper AR to result), and, as noted in last post, WCPO-DT is preserving proper AR during ABC HD, and is simply overlaying their school closings(or other graphics/crawls/etc), hence "covering up" a portion of the ABC HD video.


Perhaps you guys should come and live in DC.


What you describe sounds nice, but --- Just a suggestion, besides doing a little travelling with a DTV receiver, perhaps you should try for a little tropo DX this coming spring/summer, so perhaps in some cases you'll at least be able to actually get an idea of what some of the stations are doing in all these local threads I've noticed you post in ..... Seeing it is probably a little easier than trying to decipher what others are saying they see ....

In lieu of that, again, just a suggestion, but as it relates to this thread, anyway, you might also want to go back and do a little more reading or researching in this thread .... There's quite a bit of history and a lot of great info(and some perhaps not so great) in there it seems you may be interested in .....


If WCPO used to do closings right, perhaps you could call their engineer and see if something broke or something. Wasn't he good at answering peoples' questions?


I don't have any questions for them, currently.

As for your question, regarding my communication with them in the past, It's been quite a while since I've talked to anyone at WCPO, but all I will say is I've found their engineers+others there have allways been receptive to communication, seemingly "interested" and professional, as has been the case with engineers at other stations I've talked to ....

To say we need to be replaced is a little extreme don't you think. All bugs/crawl, etc are used on HD when the situation dictates. As in bad weather and large amounts of school closed. If you watched superbowl coverage the HD wasn't removed then. Nor was it dropped for Criminal Minds after the game. HD is NOT dropped every single time there is a bug/crawl event.

Guess ya just can't please everyone.

Weasel
First, my MAIN complaint isn't about the bugs or lack of HD when there is bad weather. ALL the local stations in this market provide good coverage on weather related stuff but, IMO, it sure is annoying to watch your station and see it constantly. And no, I'm not saying that ALL of you need to be replaced but, IMO, there are a few that I would fire and/or some real butt kicking that I feel needs to be done to at least a few employees at WKRC.

Let's talk about the times when there isn't bad weather. I don't know how much you watch your station after 10 PM but quite often (especially during Letterman) WKRC-DT doesn't go back to HD after a commercial break. Sometimes the show runs in SD for just a minute or two but lately, many times, it runs in SD until the next break. After that break it may or may not switch back to HD. Clearly this is some equipment problem but, IMO, SOMEONE in the control room is NOT doing their job. If they were watching they would clearly see the problem and would (or should) switch it back ot HD. At least a couple of times a month (more lately) the 11 PM news won't even be on WKRC-DT. Instead, it will be showing color bars with the break times for the Late Night show. If you call the news room and NICELY ask the person answering the phone to call the engineer and ask him or her to switch to the news on DT you will be told "that isn't my job, call back tomorrow", and hung up on. I have seen the entire 11 PM news timeslot display the color bars. Again, IMO, someone isn't doing their job even if it is some equipment that failed to switch. And don't even get me started on some of the really nasty people that sometime answer your phones at WKRC.

Weasel, we really appriciate the information you provide here but I just wish that you could look at things the way your viewers do. Some of us (our companies) pay a great deal to advertise on your station's 11 PM news and your station shows color bars on the DT feed (we never watch your SD feed and I know a lot of people that only watch the DT feed) and not our ads. When we complain about it we get hung up on. You said "Guess ya just can't please everyone". Not with the way that WKRC is doing things now you can't. By the way, feel free to pass this post on to your management.

First, my MAIN complaint isn't about the bugs or lack of HD when there is bad weather. ALL the local stations in this market provide good coverage on weather related stuff but, IMO, it sure is annoying to watch your station and see it constantly. And no, I'm not saying that ALL of you need to be replaced but, IMO, there are a few that I would fire and/or some real butt kicking that I feel needs to be done to at least a few employees at WKRC.

Let's talk about the times when there isn't bad weather. I don't know how much you watch your station after 10 PM but quite often (especially during Letterman) WKRC-DT doesn't go back to HD after a commercial break. Sometimes the show runs in SD for just a minute or two but lately, many times, it runs in SD until the next break. After that break it may or may not switch back to HD. Clearly this is some equipment problem but, IMO, SOMEONE in the control room is NOT doing their job. If they were watching they would clearly see the problem and would (or should) switch it back ot HD. At least a couple of times a month (more lately) the 11 PM news won't even be on WKRC-DT. Instead, it will be showing color bars with the break times for the Late Night show. If you call the news room and NICELY ask the person answering the phone to call the engineer and ask him or her to switch to the news on DT you will be told "that isn't my job, call back tomorrow", and hung up on. I have seen the entire 11 PM news timeslot display the color bars. Again, IMO, someone isn't doing their job even if it is some equipment that failed to switch. And don't even get me started on some of the really nasty people that sometime answer your phones at WKRC.

Weasel, we really appriciate the information you provide here but I just wish that you could look at things the way your viewers do. Some of us (our companies) pay a great deal to advertise on your station's 11 PM news and your station shows color bars on the DT feed (we never watch your SD feed and I know a lot of people that only watch the DT feed) and not our ads. When we complain about it we get hung up on. You said "Guess ya just can't please everyone". Not with the way that WKRC is doing things now you can't. By the way, feel free to pass this post on to your management.

I don't have alot of time. But the way you quoted me was improper and removed most, if not all of the context behind the comment I made about pleasing people. Please either remove or modify your quote to ensure that what I said is properly used. I meant only to make that comment based on the AR ratio about the screen shrinkage. It is NOT nor will it ever be my opinion.

I am a professional and take my job and the look and feel of that place that I work VERY seriously. I address the issues I read here to the proper people and try to ensure the problems are taken care of quickly and easily, when I can.

If you call please ask who you are talking to and write it down. If you are given a hard time or treated poorly you let me know immediately and I will get the issue taken care of on multiple levels. Feel free to email me at kwenzel@wkrc.com or call me at 513-763-5503 until midnite daily and I WILL get the problem fixed. I don't want to hear about DD5.1 and other management issues I cannot solve but I am willing to solve current techincal issues and people issues as quickly as possible. Since "I" CAN AND WILL try to make everyone happy when possible.

How's that for service with a smile :) :)

I address the issues I read here to the proper people and try to ensure the problems are taken care of quickly and easily, when I can.


Well, since you brought it up --- Just noticed lots of what many here refer to as "macroblocking" near a particularly bandwidth demanding portion at the end of CSI ---- If you could set things up like it was during bandwidth demanding content for a "short" period of time between Webhopper/doppler 12 radar and CinCW, that would be nice ;)

Sorry, Just kidding(sort of) --- and giving you a hard time since I rarely get the chance to do that to "station people" -- couldn't resist ;-) .......

Seriously, If I haven't mentioned it here before already -- Nice work on the quality improvements concerning the new upconverter, or whatever it was you did -- and, don't know if I've mentioned it before, but IMO, (as far as SD goes) --- the 12.2 video looks nice as well ....


How's that for service with a smile


Seriously, thanks for your work, and again, for taking the time to participate here.

FYI, "OAR" as we usually refer to it in this forum refers to "original aspect ratio".
I know that, and what you're talking about (differences in OAR for 4x3 vs. 16x9, etc.). Sorry that I didn't clarify my knowledge on that enough.

WCPO-DT is preserving proper AR during ABC HD, and is simply overlaying their school closings(or other graphics/crawls/etc), hence "covering up" a portion of the ABC HD video.
Perhaps that should be done on analog stations, and WHIO-DT.

(By the way, concerning WCPO-DT and all other stations with HD keyers, when HD network programming is occuring, there could be a seperate "overlay" closings bar for SD viewers, by using an SD keyer, like what ESPN does. At least that could be done now for WKRC's analog viewers, by using their SD keyer.)

On a semi-side note: Does WKRC have an HD keyer (I know they probably don't)? How much would it cost to buy one?

Just a suggestion, besides doing a little travelling with a DTV receiver, perhaps you should try for a little tropo DX this coming spring/summer, so perhaps in some cases you'll at least be able to actually get an idea of what some of the stations are doing in all these local threads I've noticed you post in .....
If only I could DX with my indoor antenna, that would be pretty cool. The closest I've ever come to "DXing" is WPXW in Manassas, VA, and I'm within the contour of the station. :cool: My tuner recognized its channel (43), but couldn't get quite enough data to pull it in and remap it. The analog station, even with the antenna by the window, comes in with lots of snow, so I wouldn't expect the digital station to come in at all. Maybe I'm not doing something right, but since it's a PAX/"i"/"ion" affiliate, I'm not all that itching to pick it up. :)

In lieu of that, again, just a suggestion, but as it relates to this thread, anyway, you might also want to go back and do a little more reading or researching in this thread ....
Got it.

I don't want to hear about DD5.1

I thought I would toss the question out there because the topic had not been brought up in awhile and the Super Bowl was in a few days. Trust me, I get management and priorities. My question isn't out of frustration or anger, only curiosity due to a station (namely in the Cleveland area) that people never expected to get DD5.1 upgraded just in time for the Super Bowl. I just wondered if there was any kind of "secret operation" going on, that's all.

I'll refrain from asking again and hope that if WKRC-DT decides to proceed with DD5.1 you'll let us know the installation is pending.

I'm certain the few[one] do not speak for the many on this thread when they say engineers at WKRC-DT don't know what they're doing and some/all of them need to be replaced. I have always appreciated your responsiveness to this forum and hope you continue the good work.


ADDITION:
I should also mention that after the many complaints I have heard about the Super Bowl broadcast provided by other affiliates, I would like to thank the engineers of WKRC-DT for their outstanding broadcast. The only issues I can recall were during the half hour kick off show and I think those may have been MPEG4 encoding issues rather than WKRC-DT's errors. So thanks for the strong work!

Weasel,

I think we all thank you for posting on this site and being forward with help. I would also like to say that the SD upconverts on WKRC are 1000% better from 6 months ago. Whatever you guys did, it definitely helped. Now, I don't watch Local 12 11 P.M. news, I too would be frustrated with the station missing the switch. During the CinCW upgrade, wasn't a new automatic switch installed?

Wrong forum, but I haven't received a response on the Dayton thread, but does anyone have contact info for WHIO engineers? I would like to ask about the weather bars and bandwidth allocation.

Now about the weather bars, I would say that Cincinnati stations were doing a better job than Dayton stations, as far as on analog. Dayton stations were just squeezing the picture, where Cincinnati stations, like WCPO, were slightly cutting off the bottom of the picture and doing a smaller squeeze. I didn't mind this and other than simply covering the bottom, is most likely the best option.

I know that, and what you're talking about (differences in OAR for 4x3 vs. 16x9, etc.). Sorry that I didn't clarify my knowledge on that enough.


I figured you did, but just wanted to make sure what I was talking about was clear.


Perhaps that should be done on analog stations, and WHIO-DT.


If I recall correctly, that is often how it was done in the past, but ff course, the problem with that is their school closing graphics are rougly 1/12 or 1/10(or a little more) or so of the total screen height, and they also have to have the "info" in them such that they aren't hidden in the area that's overscanned on some sets(I haven't measured it, but it looks like they have it set up so folks with sets with overscan as high as 7% or so would still be able to see the info) therefore an appreciable amount of the video gets "covered" up - Imagine trying to watch a movie such as "Dances With Wolves" with English subtitles in that area when the Native Americans are talking in their native languages ...

But, to me, that is a better option than trying to watch distorted pictures ... It would help(hide less of the video at bottom) of course if they would reduce the vertical height of the school closing(used for other puposes as well of course) somewhat.

However, IMO, the better option is to adjust the horizontal size of the picture as well as the vertical when they key in graphics such as school closing info, so that proper AR results, and make the crawl a single line of text, to reduce the amount of screen area utilized by the crawl, and therefore also decrease the amount taken up by any side "pillar bars", which could be relatively small on sets with say, about 5% overscan ....

Oh -- Do keep in mind, in addition to WHIO-DT it's often happening on the digital stations as well, when they are keying in the school closings and airing the "feed"(such as during SD upconverts) from the analog station rather than the network HD Feed(in some cases includes SD Network programming upconverted at net).


On a semi-side note: Does WKRC have an HD keyer (I know they probably don't)? How much would it cost to buy one?


I don't know, and don't know the costs(Imagine it isn't cheap) but as you say, I don't think so. Weasel would have to answer that one.

I don't have alot of time. But the way you quoted me was improper and removed most, if not all of the context behind the comment I made about pleasing people. Please either remove or modify your quote to ensure that what I said is properly used. I meant only to make that comment based on the AR ratio about the screen shrinkage. It is NOT nor will it ever be my opinion.

I don't feel that I need to modify my post but I'm open to discussing it. How do you think that the post should read?

I am a professional and take my job and the look and feel of that place that I work VERY seriously. I address the issues I read here to the proper people and try to ensure the problems are taken care of quickly and easily, when I can.

Yes, I agree and anyone that has been reading this thread for a while knows that and we really do appriciate your efforts along those lines.

If you call please ask who you are talking to and write it down. If you are given a hard time or treated poorly you let me know immediately and I will get the issue taken care of on multiple levels. Feel free to email me at kwenzel@wkrc.com or call me at 513-763-5503 until midnite daily and I WILL get the problem fixed. I don't want to hear about DD5.1 and other management issues I cannot solve but I am willing to solve current techincal issues and people issues as quickly as possible. Since "I" CAN AND WILL try to make everyone happy when possible.

How's that for service with a smile :) :)

Thank you for your offer and your efforts on getting your technical problems fixed. Hopefully, you will alert whoever is on duty in the late evening and they will make an extra effort to make sure that the 11 PM news does get on the DT feed every night and the CBS programs that are broadcast in HD are HD all the way through.

Do you know why your station has such a problem with autoswitching to HD (after breaks)? Is your switcher a lemon or what? When I watch any other station in this market I don't see the problem (not switching back to HD) but I see it quite often on WKRC-DT.

Weasel,

Add my thanks/appreciation to the list. Your SD upconverts do look much better now. The HD switching is still a problem though. I have noticed a bit of improvement (since about the same time as the SD upconverts improved) but I still see switches missed consistently. There are a lot of commercials that should be in HD comeing through in SD. A quick check to WHIO shows the same commercial in HD over there, so these are during national breaks. Even when the switches do happen properly, they are oftentimes "rough." What I mean by that is, it's VERY obvious to the viewer that you've just switched from the HD feed to the analog feed, and sometimes it's a second or two off (repeated or skipped video/audio). Other stations don't seem to have this problem.

Wrong forum, but I haven't received a response on the Dayton thread, but does anyone have contact info for WHIO engineers? I would like to ask about the weather bars and bandwidth allocation.


What did you want to know about bandwidth allocation? If you just wanted to know how bandwidth was being allocated, I can post a report upon analyzing the ATSC stream from WHIO-DT.

From memory I can tell you that WHIO's allocation between the main channel and the AccuWeather Weather subchannel remains fairly constant, which is in contrast to what WKRC does with their stat mux (allocation changes dynamically, and quite extensively).

Last I checked I believe WHIO was allocating roughly twice what WLWT allocates to their WeatherPlus service, and when comparing WKRC has come in as having higher HD bandwidth and slightly better HD picture quality than WHIO.

Now about the weather bars, I would say that Cincinnati stations were doing a better job than Dayton stations, as far as on analog. Dayton stations were just squeezing the picture, where Cincinnati stations, like WCPO, were slightly cutting off the bottom of the picture and doing a smaller squeeze. I didn't mind this and other than simply covering the bottom, is most likely the best option.

I'm different. I disagree that that's the best option. Any distortion of the video (Aspect ratio) is unacceptable to me. If they are going to "squeeze" the picture vertically(to whatever degree) for it "to work" for me they need to "squeeze" it horizontally as well in such a way the proper "proportions" results.

WDTN Dayton appears to be trying to do this, currently(if your TV is set for greater than about 4% overscan or so, or your equipment "crops out" some of the side on 2.2 SD, you should still see the "blue bars" on the sides on 2.1 during SD upconverts - except those during the HD feed that are done at network level), but they aren't doing something quite right(perhaps not "squeezing it enough" horizontally), as the image is still distorted.

Do you know why your station has such a problem with autoswitching to HD (after breaks)? Is your switcher a lemon or what? When I watch any other station in this market I don't see the problem (not switching back to HD) but I see it quite often on WKRC-DT.

Do keep in mind --- While I can recall weasel reported some time ago they received equipment which would allow them to automate switching to/from HD feed, that does not necessarily mean it has been installed/implemented as of yet.

Sorry for the multiple posts! Lots to talk about I suppose ....

Pulled a couple of my earlier posts, as after reading others responses realized they either weren't necessary, and one was related to the below :

If you just wanted to know how bandwidth was being allocated, I can post a report upon analyzing the ATSC stream from WHIO-DT.

Follows is info on that+some other related info using TSreader and short captures of about a minute each from WHIO-DT, WLWT-DT and WKRC-DT streams between approx 2:30pm and 3:30pm today. For bitrate measurement info, see the "PID usage" and "NOTE" sections for each listed "subchannel".

The streams were captured individually per program service("subchannel") via firewire output from Sony KD34XBR960 HDTV with either CapDVHS or a "raw" capture to disk via a directshow filter in VLC media player as a *.ts file, Then opened in TSreader via it's (ts)"file"option. I can't guarentee or verify the "absolute" accuracy of the "numbers", nor did I attempt to provide PSIP, or other metadata or "null packet" bitrate info. As you know, this info will probably look very different for the most part, when bandwidth demanding HD content is airing :

WHIO-DT 7.1 - approx 3pm 2/8/07 :

Transport Stream ID: 2275 (0x08e3)
PMT PID 48 (0x0030) - Program 3
Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio PID 52 (0x0034)
AC3: Bitrate 384 Kbps Sample Rate 48 KHz
AC3: Mode complete main Coding 2/0 L, R (info : WHIO-DT switches between DD 2.0 and DD5.1 depending upon the program content)
Descriptor: ISO639 Language Descriptor
Language: eng
Audio type: undefined

Stream Type: 0x02 MPEG-2 Video PID 49 (0x0031)
MPEG Video Resolution 1920 x 1080i
MPEG Video: Framerate 29.97 fps Aspect Ratio 16:9 Chroma Format 4:2:0

Run Time: 000:00:44 (from TS file)
Calculated multiplex rate: 14666420 bps

PID Usage :
0x0000 (0.21% ~ 0.03 Mbps) - MPEG-2 Program Assocation Table
0x0030 (0.21% ~ 0.03 Mbps) - MPEG-2 PMT for program 3
0x0031 (96.69% ~ 13.48Mbps)- MPEG-2 Video for program 3
0x0034 (2.90% ~ 0.41 Mbps) - AC-3 Audio for program 3

NOTE: Video Bitrate chart indicates values of about 14.14Mb/s. I do not understand the descrepency here from the 13.48Mb/s average reported for PID 0x0031 in "PID usage" chart.

WHIO-DT 7.2 - approx 3pm 2/8/07

Transport Stream ID: 2275 (0x08e3)
PMT PID 64 (0x0040) - Program 4
Stream Type: 0x02 MPEG-2 Video PID 65 (0x0041)
MPEG Video: Resolution 720 x 480i
MPEG Video: Framerate 29.97 fps Aspect Ratio 4:3 Chroma Format 4:2:0

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio PID 68 (0x0044)
AC3: Bitrate 192 Kbps Sample Rate 48 KHz
AC3: Mode complete main Coding 2/0 L, R
Descriptor: ISO639 Language Descriptor
Language: eng.
Audio type: undefined

Calculated multiplex rate: 2591517 bps
Run Time: 000:00:16

PID Usage
0x0000 (1.14% ~ 0.03 Mbps) - 0x0000 MPEG-2 Program Assocation Table
0x0040 (1.14% ~ 0.03 Mbps) - 0x0040 MPEG-2 PMT for program 4
0x0041 (88.87% - 2.21 Mbps) - 0x0041 MPEG-2 Video for program 4
0x0044 (8.85% ~ 0.22 Mbps) - 0x0044 AC-3 Audio for program 4


NOTE: Video Bitrate chart indicates values of about 2.32Mb/s. I do not understand the descrepency here from the 15.89Mb/s average for PID 0x0041 reported in PID usage chart.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

WLWT-DT 5.1 - approx 3pm 2/8/07 :

Transport Stream ID: 2243 (0x08c3)

PMT PID 80 (0x0050) - Program 1

Stream Type: 0x02 MPEG-2 Video PID 81 (0x0051)
MPEG Video Resolution 1920 x 1080i
MPEG Video: Framerate 29.97 fps Aspect Ratio 16:9 Chroma Format 4:2:0

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio PID 84 (0x0054)
AC3: Bitrate 384 Kbps Sample Rate 48 KHz
AC3: Mode complete main Coding 3/2 5 L, C, R, SL, SR
Descriptor: ISO639 Language Descriptor
Language: eng
Audio type: undefined

Calculated multiplex rate: 17291029 bps
Run Time: 000:03:13

PID Usage:
0x0000 (0.18% ~ 0.03 Mbps) - MPEG-2 Program Assocation Table
0x0050 (0.18% ~ 0.03 Mbps) - MPEG-2 PMT for program 1
0x0051 (97.34% - 15.89 Mbps) - MPEG-2 Video for program 1
0x0054 (2.31% ~ 0.38 Mbps) - AC-3 Audio for program 1

NOTE: Video Bitrate chart values of about 16.66Mb/s. I do not understand the descrepency here from the 15.89Mb/s average for PID 0x0051 reported in PID usage chart.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

WLWT-DT 5.2 - approx 3pm 2/8/07 :

Transport Stream ID: 2243 (0x08c3)
PMT PID 96 (0x0060) - Program 2
Stream Type: 0x02 MPEG-2 Video PID 97 (0x0061)
MPEG Video Resolution 640 x 480i
MPEG Video: Framerate 29.97 fps Aspect Ratio 4:3 Chroma Format 4:2:0

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio PID 100 (0x0064)
AC3: Bitrate 160 Kbps Sample Rate 48 KHz
AC3: Mode complete main Coding 2/0 L, R
Descriptor: ISO639 Language Descriptor
Language: eng
Audio type: undefined

Calculated multiplex rate: 3331929 bps
Run Time: 000:01:13

PID Usage :
0x0000 (1.26% ~ 0.04 Mbps) - MPEG-2 Program Assocation Table
0x0060 (1.26% ~ 0.04 Mbps) - MPEG-2 PMT for program 2
0x0061 (90.38% - 2.48 Mbps) - MPEG-2 Video for program 2
0x0064 (7.09% ~ 0.23 Mbps) - AC-3 Audio for program 2

NOTE: Video Bitrate chart indicates values of about 2.6Mb/s. I do not understand the descrepency here from the 2.48Mb/s average for PID 0x0061 reported in PID usage chart.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

WKRC-DT 12.1 - approx 3pm 2/8/07 :

Transport Stream ID: 2247 (0x08c7)
PMT PID 48 (0x0030) - Program 1
Stream Type: 0x02 MPEG-2 Video PID 49 (0x0031)
MPEG Video Resolution 1920 x 1080i
MPEG Video: Framerate 29.97 fps Aspect Ratio 16:9 Chroma Format 4:2:0

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio PID 52 (0x0034)
AC3: Bitrate 384 Kbps Sample Rate 48 KHz
AC3: Mode complete main Coding 2/0 L, R
Descriptor: ISO639 Language Descriptor
Language: eng
Audio type: undefined

Calculated multiplex rate: 12849110 bps
Run Time: 000:01:09

PID Usage :
0x0000 (0.23% ~ 0.03 Mbps) - MPEG-2 Program Assocation Table
0x0030 (0.23% ~ 0.03 Mbps) - MPEG-2 PMT for program 1
0x0031 (96.26% - 11.88 Mbps) - MPEG-2 Video for program 1
0x0034 (3.27% ~ 0.40 Mbps) - AC-3 Audio

NOTE: Video Bitrate chart indicates values of about 12.46Mb/s. I do not understand the descrepency here from the 11.88Mb/s average for PID 0x0031 reported in PID usage chart.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

WKRC-DT 12.2 - Approx 3pm 2/8/07

Transport Stream ID: 2247 (0x08c7)
PMT PID 64 (0x0040) - Program 2

Stream Type: 0x02 MPEG-2 Video PID 65 (0x0041)
MPEG Video Resolution 704 x 480i
MPEG Video: Framerate 29.97 fps Aspect Ratio 4:3 Chroma Format 4:2:0

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio PID 68 (0x0044)
AC3: Bitrate 192 Kbps Sample Rate 48 KHz
AC3: Mode complete main Coding 2/0 L, R
Descriptor: ISO639 Language Descriptor
Language: eng
Audio type: undefined

Calculated multiplex rate: 4970365 bps
Run Time: 000:01:15

PID Usage :

0x0000 (0.62% ~ 0.03 Mbps) - MPEG-2 Program Assocation Table
0x0040 (0.62% ~ 0.03 Mbps) - MPEG-2 PMT for program 2
0x0041 (93.96% - 4.38 Mbps) - 0x0041 MPEG-2 Video for program 2
0x0044 (4.80% ~ 0.23 Mbps) - 0x0044 AC-3 Audio

NOTE: Video Bitrate chart indicates values of about 4.596Mb/s. I do not understand the descrepency here from the 4.38Mb/s average for PID 0x0041 reported in PID usage chart.

More bitrate measurements follow. These captures were taken at the times noted this evening, between 10 and 10:30pm during periods when all stations listed were airing HD programming. Although it was impossible to do so in any sort of "accurate way", I attempted to take the captures at times when I speculate the "bandwidth requirements" for the programming content should have been roughly similar for at least some sort of hopefully somewhat useful comparision for the Dayton vs. Cincinnati stations.

I wanted to include WCVN-DT(KET4 HD) as well, however they appeared to be having a problem, as all that was present was a "KET HD" logo. Or, in other words by the time I got around to them at 10:30pm there was no programming on KET4 in "HD Mode". I did enjoy an HD production about National Geographic Photographers on KET4 earlier in evening however.

I didn't include the Fox(WXIX-DT or WRGT-DT - those should be the same via the Fox "splicer" anyway), CW(WBDT-DT Dayton) or MYTV(WSTR-DT Cincy) HD affilates, or WPTO-DT(ThinkTV 14HD) as they weren't airing HD programming at the time.

DISCLAIMER : As in my last post, I make no claims whatsoever concerning the accuracy of the below. And of course, do keep in mind some encoders stations use are more efficient than others, and the way they have their encoders(and or Stat mux/etc) setup can have a large impact as well.

However, that being said --- I think where the "numbers" are generally lower from 1080i soures, it does seem to "correspond" well with what I do see "on the screen" currently, and recently(the past several days or so at least) as it relates to MPEG2 compression ratio and certian artifacts -- some call it "macroblocking" although there are more accurate descriptions.

Particularly so, perhaps, at present involving CBS HD and WHIO-DT vs. WKRC-DT, and PBS HD and WCET-DT vs WPTD-DT. I don't think I've noticed any "problem" issues involving MPEG2 compression/bitrate issues with any of the stations in the area sending 720p. Also, I would note It does seem that the "average" bitrate reported from TSreader in each case seems to be right along the lines of what I'm showing from PowerDVD as well.

The captures were accomplished the same way mentioned in top portion of my last post, except I added readings from PowerDVD player stream "information" as well, and I exclusively used CapDVHS for the captures.

Tsreader/PowerDVD notes:

TSreaderlite 2.7.44 info - This time, included Video stream Bitrate info only - again, don't understand the discrepencies between the bitrate reported in the PID list for the video stream, and the video bitrate line chart, nor do I understand why the values don't change much in the chart. At this point I'm thinking this function isn't working properly for my "lite" version of TSreader for some reason(the help file is non-existant, and I haven't taken time to look any info up on it on their website, oh well). In fact, I wouldn't have included info from the "video bitrate" chart at all, except I thought I should post it+this note about it to indicate it does not seem to be indicating any useful, or true Minimum or Maximum(or even average) values, as seems to be case with the PowerDVD bitrate indicator described below -- also, I assume "M" as shown in video bitrate chart is supposed to refer to Mb/s?

PowerDVD(6.00.1530)player info - This is the MPEG2 video bitrate info displayed when I choose 'show information'from the "right click" menu. I do not know whether or not it is solely the bitrate for the video stream which is measured, or if audio stream/etc. is included as well. Note that I added a "manual" calulation which I refer to as "most typical" -- basically, I'm just looking at the bitrate I see reported most often, and making a rough estimation of the "average". I think it is notable that my estimation here roughly the same(generally about 500Kb/s higher or so) than the average reported by TS reader.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HD bitrate measurements 2/8/06 - 10~10:30pm :

--------------------------------------------------------------------


WKRC-DT 12.1 10:07~08pm - 2/8/06 - 1920x1080i - "Shark" HD - Noticing a fair amount of so called "macroblocking" from them tonight during this program, and recently in general during bandwidth demanding portions of HD programming.

TSreader(video stream Only) :

PID List "average" : 13.03Mb/s
video bitrate line chart : Min: 13.6585M, max 13.6591 M


PowerDVD info :

Video: MPEG2

Min 8.84 Mb/s
Max 14.88 Mb/s

13~14mb/s appears most "typical"

Audio: DD 2.0

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

WHIO-DT 7.1 - 10:08~10pm - 2/8/06 - 1920x1080i - HD "shark" (with squeezed in school closings, unfortunetly) AND 10:35~10:38pm (no school closings).

TSreader(video stream only) :

PID List "average" : 14.88Mb/s (10:08pm) 14.81mb/s (10:35pm)

video bitrate line chart : Min: 15.53355M, max 15.6005M

PowerDVD info :

Min 12.20 Mb/s
Max 16.98 Mb/s

14.5Mb/s~16Mb/s appears most "typical"

Audio: DD 5.1

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


WLWT-DT 5.1 - 10~10:05pm 2/8/06 - 1920x1080i - ER HD Note - Includes "fast moving" "ER" graphics

TSreader(video stream Only) :

PID list "average" : 15.63 Mb/s
Video bitrate line chart : Min: 16.38960 M, Max 16.39015 M

PowerDVD info :

min: 10.74 Mb/s
Max 17.1Mb/s

15~16mb/s appears Most "typical".

Audio: DD 5.1

------------------------------------------------------------------------

WDTN-DT 2.1 - 10:10~12PM 2/8/06 - "ER" HD - 1920x1080i

TSreader(video stream Only) :

PID list "average" : 15.27 Mb/s
Video bitrate line chart : Min: 16.009025 M, Max 16.009037 M

PowerDVD info :

min: 14.95Mb/s
Max 16.56Mb/s

15.5~15.75 Mb/s appears Most "typical".

Audio: DD 5.1

----------------------------------------------------------------------

WKEF-DT 22.1 - 10:14~15pm - "Men In Trees" HD - 1280x720p - NOTE : WKEF-DT is the only station on this list which is not currently multicasting. They dropped "The Tube" on 1/1/07, and dropped the test pattern+barker message announcing it's removal sometime within the last 24 hours(they may not have reallocated its bandwidth yet, however).

TSreader(video stream Only) :

PID list "average" : 13.34 Mb/s
Video bitrate line chart : Min: 13.992672 M, Max 13.992688 M

PowerDVD info :

min: 13.14 Mb/s
Max 14.21 Mb/s

~13.5~13.75 Mb/s appears Most "typical".

Audio: DD 5.1

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

WCPO-DT 9.1 - 10:17pm~10:19pm - "Men In Trees" HD - 1280x720p

TSreader(video stream Only) :

PID list "average" : 14.60 Mb/s
Video bitrate line chart : Min: 15.31162 M, Max 15.31169 M

PowerDVD info :

min: 13.93 Mb/s
Max 15.36 Mb/s

14.75~15 Mb/s appears Most "typical".

Audio: DD 5.1

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

WPTD-DT 16.6 - 10:26pm~10:27pm - "Soundstage" HD - 1920x1080i - Note : lots of "macroblocking" present.

TSreader(video stream Only) :

PID list "average" : 10.15 Mb/s
Video bitrate line chart : Min: 10.64695 M, Max 10.64755 M

PowerDVD info :

min: 7.93 Mb/s
Max 12.57 Mb/s

approx 10~11 Mb/s appears Most "typical".

Audio: DD 2.0

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

WCET-DT 48.1 - 10:27pm~10:28pm - "Soundstage" HD - 1920x1080i - Note : A fair amount of "macroblocking" present at times, but not quite as often as on WPTD-DT.


TSreader(video stream Only) :

PID list "average" : 13.13 Mb/s
Video bitrate line chart : Min: 13.77033 M, Max 13.770402M

PowerDVD info :

min: 10.97 Mb/s
Max 15.00 Mb/s

approx 13~13.5 Mb/s appears Most "typical".

Audio: DD 5.1

Thanks Jeff for all of the info! This is what I have been looking for. Hopefully WKEF gets its bandwidth back up to previous, pre-Tube levels. I noticed that WXIX and WCPO are both showing children's programming on Saturday and Sunday on their subchannels, while WLWT's WeatherMinus has not. We should file a complaint and have them drop the channel.

Just received a great email that I want to share.

WKRC will no longer dump their HD broadcasts due to weather crawls. Like others, I emailed the station. Here is part of the response:
We received many emails similar to yours in the last several days and,
as a result, have re-evaluated what we are going to do on HD.

If a show is in HD we will now have it in HD without the weather /
schools info.

If a show is in SD we will up-convert the signal with the weather /
school closing information and put it on HD.

The only exception is during very serious events such as tornado /
evacuation.

So now we can all enjoy Letterman in the winter :)

WKRC will no longer dump their HD broadcasts due to weather crawls. Like others, I emailed the station.
So now we can all enjoy Letterman in the winter :)

Yes, as long as they don't miss the HD switch. And that policy makes sense as anyone who can get the HD channel can also get the analog channel.

Very glad to see it too. I have been very critical of the piss-poor job that WKRC has been doing on HD but this is sure a step in the right direction. I wonder if my complaint to CBS helped?

Hopefully, they will get their switcher (or whatever is wrong) fixed too.

Very glad to see it too. I have been very critical of the piss-poor job that WKRC has been doing on HD but this is sure a step in the right direction. I wonder if my complaint to CBS helped?

Hopefully, they will get their switcher (or whatever is wrong) fixed too.

The HD switching is done manually. So nothing is broken. We have not installed the automation system for HD switching as of yet. This is coming soon. It is simply a case of someone missing a switch. Or allowing school closing/weather bugs to be inserted. Sometime they may only leave them up for a short time. This is done on purpose in most cases since that way the info will get out and the HD viewers will be kept fairly happy.

HD programming should stay up except in the case of events that would possibly cause loss of life.... ie Tornado Warnings, Severe Thunderstorms, etc...

Of course the station reserves the right to do what they want when they feel it is in the best interest of the viewers

Weasel

anyone who can get the HD channel can also get the analog channel.

Not after Feb 17, 2009, as it stands now ....

That does not seem very far off into the future to me ...

Not after Feb 17, 2009, as it stands now ....

That does not seem very far off into the future to me ...

We'll just have to hope that by then all of the stations can insert graphics into HD...

We'll just have to hope that by then all of the stations can insert graphics into HD...

and can/will do it without distorting the video/Aspect ratio ..... It looks just as ugly(if not worse) in HD when this happens as it does when it happens with SD ... Viewers who have watched much HD from WHIO-DT earlier this week would have easily noticed that ....

For those who haven't already seen it, thought I'd post link to this article :

http://www.syracuse.com/living/poststandard/index.ssf?/base/living-3/1170410694303660.xml&coll=1

and this thread on it in programming area at AVSforum :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=799047&page=1&pp=30

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think many here will probably find both the article, as well as some of the discussion in the thread, interesting.

For instance, here's a short quote from the article at link above :


"... engineers at CBS believe adding any subchannel to a digital TV signal takes away from the quality of the HD.... "


While I think 720p can work well with multicasting(especially with 1 SD subchannel) and from what I can see several stations in the area have shown that is the case --- I believe they are right on the money concerning 1080i - At least so far it seems to correspond with my observations on this over the past 5 1/2 years I've been watching HDTV from various stations, few of which were multicasting(or datacasting/etc) at first.

Granted, this is something many of us have known for quite some time. However, I thought it was refreshing to hear broadcast network exec+ engineers tell it like it is in a "public" way.

I can only hope(and it's hoping a lot, I know) HD quality as broadcast OTA, via cable, satellite or via whatever means will *ALL* one day become as important to all the Networks, content providers AND local affiliates as their bottom line, and as it is to some of us .... Or at least 90~95% as important as the latter <g> .....

anyone who can get the HD channel can also get the analog channel.
Not after Feb 17, 2009, as it stands now ....

That does not seem very far off into the future to me ...
And you have to wonder: Who will want to view an HD feed on an SDTV, especially during SD programming? Some people may want a feed "pre-cut" for SD like 12 analog is now, for whatever reason; maybe they don't want letterboxing, or don't want to switch between "zoom" and "normal" mode, or whatever. My Samsung tuner's zoom function doesn't work properly, for example.

Here's an idea for whoever buys WKRC: How about establishing a second DT station on, say, channel 11? It's available for broadcast at full VHF-type power, even today, because channels 10 and 12 protect 11 over their contour areas. It can be operated at lower power than a UHF station, which will save money, yet provide a great contour. It can air CBS-SD on 11-1, and CW-HD on 11-2, using the stat-mux arrangement currently used by WKRC (more on a new WKRC encoder system later). Or that order can be flipped :) Maybe a second mid-motion sub like "LATV" or "AmericanLife TV Network" can be put in and CW-HD can be down-rezzed to 720p (hey, who will care? ;)) In any case, don't we want full-bandwidth CBS-HD on 12-1? :cool:
_________________________

BTW, I know that CBS thinks that multicasting for a 1080i channel is bad, and I generally agree. However, would 1080i PQ decrease if a very good HD encoder (like a Harmonic MV450, MV500, or Harris NetVX ENC-H11) was set at 17.2 mbps CBR video, and a low-motion subchannel was squeezed in? The bitrate situation given is technically possible.

Let's say that the new station owners want a weather subchannel on 12-2 after the channel 11 inception. If I remember correctly, NBC O&O's limit their WeatherPlus to 1.8 mbps, and it looks pretty good here on WRC. With a modern encoder that's designed for lower bitrates, the quality can remain, even at bitrates approaching 1.5 mbps. In fact, I remember that this thread once mentioned how 5-2 was pressed toward levels that low during an NBC football game.

From there, it looks like there's under 30 kbps used per A/V stream (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9728748#post9728748) for what I'll assume to be PSIP and EPG data. WebHopperWeasel: Is that all the bandwidth needed to broadcast such data? If not, what's a more appropriate total?*

Finally, note that a 6 MHz ATSC channel can fit 19.39 mbps in. So with that in mind (all bitrates CBR):

17.2 mbps 12-1 video
+ 425 kbps 12-1 5.1 audio (they can bring in a 5.1 encoder, right? :))
+ 1.54 mbps** 12-2 video
+ 160 kbps 12-2 DD2.0 (good audio quality)
+ 60 kbps (flotsam PSIP/EPG for both 12-1 and 12-2)
= 19.385 mbps

Both Harris and Harmonic can sell stations a good low-bandwidth SD encoder (the ENC-S21 and MV100, respectively). I suggest testing both encoders as much as you can before buying one, but I suspect that Harmonic will be the better encoder. Maybe I'm biased, because Harris supposedly uses one on WETA, and the result doesn't look all that great. Oh, wait, there are three being used, and none of them have great PQ. Never mind.

With a VBR system, a little more HD bandwidth can be allotted at times, though this will add to the cost of the encoder system. But be careful: Unlike the current arrangement, please don't be afraid to have some macroblocking and/or artifacting on the subchannel on occasion, because who will care? :)

* Of course, anybody else can answer that.

** This number is evenly divisible by 16 -- I remember that that's supposed to increase encoding efficiency, which is important for such low bitrates.

In my above channel 12 multicasting analysis, I forgot SAP implementation. With that in mind, I'll have to lower the hypothetical HD bitrate to 17 mbps even, but that's as far as I'm willing to go. I'll lower 12-2's video bitrate from 1.54 to 1.5 mbps even. Who'll tell the difference in the lost 40 kbps? Besides, that will allow more potential data throughput for any additional stuff that I've missed. It's more of a safety net than anything else.

So, under the new hypothetical situation (again, all-CBR):

17 mbps 12-1 video
+ 425 kbps 12-1 DD5.1
+ 160 kbps 12-1 DD2.0 SAP
+ 1.5 mbps 12-2 video
+ 192 kbps 12-2 DD2.0
+ 105 kbps (flotsam PSIP, EPG, etc. for both streams)
= 19.382 mbps

By this point, I suspect that the encoding power of the MV500, or VBR usage, may be needed to prevent some HD macroblocking. Perhaps I'm overreacting.

If there are programs that have TAP (like, say, French), then the weather subchannel will have to be turned off for it, for all I care. In such instances, according to my basic calculations, it would be an excuse to up the 12-1 video bitrate to a cool 18.5 mbps. ;) ;)
_________________________

I've thought of a nice group of call letters for "CW 11". How about, "WCCW"? It stands for Watch Cincinnati's CW. Another possible one is "WCWC", which stands for Watch CW Cincinnati. The FCC TV Query says that both of these catchy calls are available.

CW 11 as a digital-only OTA TV station is a great way to perk peoples' ears toward digital OTA TV broadcasting, especially with the 2009 analog cut-off and 12's promotional department to work with. There is a market for people that want to get the CW in HD. Add to that the ability to have WKRC-SD on 11-2, and why not create CinCW-HD?

I'm sure that more people would like to see what's now analog 12 in excellent digital PQ and SQ than I, or most, would care about spectacular WCCW-HD PQ. Anyone who wants full-bandwidth CW-HD can point their antennas towards Dayton, for all I care. :cool: :D
_________________________

An additional question that I think only WebHopperWeasel can answer: How is CinCW currently delivered to local cable cos.? Fiber? OTA? Horse-drawn carriage? Something else?

Not after Feb 17, 2009, as it stands now ....

That does not seem very far off into the future to me ...
What happens on Feb 17th that will cause folks who receive HD channels to no longer be able to get SD channels?

I am missing something in the discussion. There are tons of SD channels out there and i wouldn't want to lose them just to get HD.

What happens on Feb 17th that will cause folks who receive HD channels to no longer be able to get SD channels?

I am missing something in the discussion. There are tons of SD channels out there and i wouldn't want to lose them just to get HD.

Remember we're talking 2009, not this year.

As of Feb 17, 2009 there will not be any more analog stations. In other words, there will not be a SD channel 12 and a DT ch 12. This will end simulcasts. It doesn't mean that ch 12 will be HD 24 hrs a day but there will only be digital transmission of the station. Those SD channels you refer to will have to be digital by 2009, not necessarily HD.

Those SD channels you refer to will have to be digital by 2009, not necessarily HD.

Then to be more specific we're only talking about local broadcasts. So the analog channels you get from cable can remain in an analog format. How the local affiliates will be carried by cable has yet to be determined (either converted to analog at the head end or converted with a set top box).

The HD switching is done manually. So nothing is broken. We have not installed the automation system for HD switching as of yet. This is coming soon. It is simply a case of someone missing a switch.

Weasel

Thanks. At last, an honest answer about what the problem has been at WKRC. Weasel, you have no idea of how many times that I have been lied to by some of your fellow employees (including engineering). When I called during regular business hours to complain about a previous nights CBS programs being (partly) in SD (this was in the fall and early winter when there was no school closings or other bad weather) I was told EVERYTIME that "the problem was due to equipment". I wish that I had talked to you and got the truth back then.

Remember that some HD commercials, like those recent ones from Chase (credit cards), have text that reads across the entire range of a 16x9 HD image. The SD versions of the ads simply are letterboxed and downrezzed versions of the HD ads. I've seen a Circuit City ad on "24", where the HD version had the rules to a contest filling a 16x9 HD frame. Meanwhile, the analog channel had a non-letterboxed SD version. It was obvious that these ads were edited completely separately of one another. Then there are TV shows like "The Office", where peoples' faces are often on the very far side of the 16x9 image, and again, the NBC-SD version downrezzes and preserves the 16x9 frame for SD consumption. In all such instances, the "zoom" function of an HD channel would cause picture irregularities that would be ghastly for some. It might work for 4x3-originated content, but for the world of 16x9 HD, things get hairy, fast.

At this rate, a "zoom"-based function of an HD channel, in order to mimic the action of an SD channel, won't be seamlessly possible at analog shut-off. An SD simulcast that works like an analog channel does now will have to do. In that mindset, this is why I call for a WKRC-SD simulcast, because lots of hopping mad grannies might be screaming about their "Young and the Restless" picture irregularities. The problem is, there's not enough bandwidth on WKRC-DT for it AND CW-SD and CBS-HD, at least without serious macroblocking issues. :eek: WCCW would serve three purposes, one being a CW HD affiliate, the second being a high-quality CBS-SD affiliate, and the third would be to allow WKRC to operate at nearly full, if not completely full, HD bandwidth. (No, I don't care about the potential lack of there being a CW-SD feed OTA, mainly because not many people watch the station, anyway, and those that do are generally in the younger demos and have the cash for HDTVs, or are at least techno-savvy enough to work a DTV box to display a widescreen picture at the right time. The fact that WCCW would not carry a very popular network on its xx-1 channel is why I support it being on DT 11, so the operating costs would be less than a UHF channel.)

WLWT can start a DT station on channel 31 in 2009, using WKRC's current frequency. It can air the NBC SD simulcast, WeatherPlus, and various time-brokered subchannels like The Tube (if not on-air in Cincinnati) and the AmericanLife TV Network. As a result, WLWT could operate their HD feed at full bandwidth. Maybe WCPO-DT could fit in the ABC SD simulcast on their current signal, if they were willing to dismantle their current weather subchannel, or macroblock the potentially two SD channels if the HD channel needed bandwidth. Does WXIX have any subchannels right now? If not, it could be possible to add Fox-SD on 19-2. And on and on we go...

Cable might be able to correct some, if not all, of these issues. However, on a purely OTA scale, I'm not sure that the coordination of SD feeds has been thought out, yet, and that might cause some serious issues down the road, especially for the cable and satellite companies that pick up their TV signals from OTA.

Instead of creating/wasting bandwidth for SD channels for cable and those with 4:3 screens, I would guess that stations could keep doing what they are doing now. I'll clarify, stations right now send SD signal to the cable companies mainly through fiber, so once 2009 rolls around, they can continue to do that. The analog shut-off shouldn't affect cable/sat feeds at all. On the OTA side, people will simply watch a down rez of the HD on their 4:3 SDTVs. Not that complicated, no need to create extra channels. Now for the cable companies that get their signal OTA (not many are doing this anymore), it should be up to them to figure out how to deliver the digital signal to the customers. Either transmit it in HD and have cable boxs down rez, or the cable company can offer an HD version and down rez at the head end and send that out.

2009 shouldn't fundamentally change how cable/sat providers get their signals, just how the station itself can broadcast it OTA.

And you have to wonder: Who will want to view an HD feed on an SDTV, especially during SD programming? Some people may want a feed "pre-cut" for SD like 12 analog is now, for whatever reason; maybe they don't want letterboxing, or don't want to switch between "zoom" and "normal" mode, or whatever. My Samsung tuner's zoom function doesn't work properly, for example.


Something relatively new called "AFD" which should send info to allow SD sets to automatically do a "center cut" in such a circumstance should help with some of these things. You can find info on "AFD" elsewere at AVSforum.

Update: Oh -- AFD might not be used for your example above, I would think, as I'd think in the future, broadcasters(or content providers) may more and more probably want to preserve the 16x9 framing (letterboxing it on 4x3 SD sets) in that case.

Also, Don't know what is wrong with your "zoom" function, but I know I can, for example do a "center cut" of the 4x3 area via a "cropped" funtion with my Zenith HDV420 DTV/"HD" receiver, and send it as 4x3 NTSC SD signal via composite or svideo to a 4x3 analog TV. Or, I can letterbox the 16x9 with it inside a 4x3 SD frame. Or, I can "squeeze" the 16x9(in other words format it as 16x9 NTSC video) video w/o "letterboxing", record to S-VHS via s-video or composite outputs, and "stretch it" back out during playback to proper AR using the "full mode" "screen mode" on my 16x9 HD displays.


Here's an idea for whoever buys WKRC: How about establishing a second DT station on, say, channel 11? It's available for broadcast at full VHF-type power, even today, because channels 10 and 12 protect 11 over their contour areas.


It (including FCC interference protection rules) is a little more complicated than that. You can't just look at the channels that are not being used in a given market and assume they are "open" for use by a new station in that market, or where the predicted contour's end and assume any other area outside of the contour is necessarily "available". It can be quite complex if you've ever read through an interference study submitted to FCC by engineers. As just one part of that, for example, currently there is WHAS 11, Louisville, KY to be "concerned" about. For now, I think Louisville+Cincinnati are probably a little too close to each other for that. And, If I recall correctly, I think WHAS-DT will be moving to 11 post analog shut off(they're on out of core channel 55 currently).

As it is, things are so crowded with both the analog+digitals on the air that, for instance, several Cincinnati area+Columbus area stations are co-channel. Those are a little too close toghether for comfort as well .... You might not realize this unless you are right between between those two markets+trying to pick up the co-channel stations from either market ....

As one example, I'm not even "between" them, and I can often see problem issues with it even here. --- For example, I'm 78 miles from Columbus, and 18 Miles from WPTO 14 analog, Oxford OH. They are about 180 degrees apart for me. And yes, My antenna probably meets FCC "planning factors"(more or less) concerning 20db of F/B ratio. Yet, It's quite common for me to see WCMH-DT 14 (remap to 4.x) "snow up" WPTO 14 with antenna aimed at WPTO,(WPTO-DT currently transmits from WXIX tower in Cincy), and to decode WCMH-DT with antenna aimed at Columbus. Note that terrain issues are involved which result in WPTO 14 being weaker here than one might think should be the case within a stations' predicted "Grade A" contour.


However, would 1080i PQ decrease if a very good HD encoder (like a Harmonic MV450, MV500, or Harris NetVX ENC-H11) was set at 17.2 mbps CBR video, and a low-motion subchannel was squeezed in?


Yes, I believe it would decrease, in fact I believe I've even seen evidence of it, as I'll explain a bit farther down. Also, as I said in the other thread, I'm sure the CBS engineers know about such possibilities as you have mentioned when they made that comment.

However, there's is no question a properly configured modern encoder such as the Harmonic encoders you mention setup along those lines(with VBR/Stat mux/etc) would offer an improvement over earlier encoders. I know of several stations (they are sending 720p however) in the area which use the Harmonic MV500. I don't know about the Harris encoder you mention, but several stations in the area have(or are using) used (probaby earlier) Harris encoders. So far, I haven't been too impressed with those ....

In fact, I don't know this for sure as I'd heard about their new encoder sometime back through 2nd hand reports, but I believe that's very much along the lines of what WLWT-DT is doing. I suspect, recently, (during superbowl, colts at ravens playoff game, and it looks like perhaps since superbowl) WHIO-DT(CBS HD Dayton - Has a "accuweather" weather channel at 720x480i) may be doing something along those lines as well.

For instance, That might explain why I've measuring bitrates above 17 Mb/s from WLWT-DT/WHIO-DT(the latter during bandwidth demanding portions of the Colts at ravens game - I didn't check during Superbowl as I was watching it). Note that prior to adding their weather multicast, such as when I checked it on several occasions during bandwidth demanding content last summer/early last fall, Bitrate for the HD video on WHIO-DT was as high as a bit above 18Mb/s.

The best 1080i HD quality during bandwidth demanding portions of content I've seen came during #1). CBS HD sports from stations such as WHIO-DT and more rarely from WKRC-DT(at times when they weren't multicasting or doing "webhopper" -- both with an earlier Harris Flexicoder if I recall correctly(I may not be), #2), WLWT-DT (that was *not* multicasting at the time) during such events as 2002 HD Winter Olympics coverage from NBC/HDnet, and 2002~2004 Triple crown races, and for a very short period from WCET-DT in Nov 2002 from the pre-PBS HD channel PBS HD "loop" (which had lots of bandwidth demanding content -- Flyover shots of Rome/etc) ....

Anyhow, I don't have the time currently to dig up more references+links or go into more detail as the subject requires, -- however, if you want to find some good information that relates to my "yes" answer above(and the quote from the CBS engineers), Search for Dr1394's posts elsewhere on AVSforum, you'll learn a lot from those in regards to MPEG2 encoding and 720p/1080i.

Also, If you search for recent posts from AVSmember "John mason", in a recent post you should find a link to a post from dr1394 which goes into quite a bit of detail concerning bitrates+bandwidth demanding MPEG2 content. I also provided links to perhaps some of the most relevant posts in an earlier post myself either here, or on Dayton thread some time ago. You'll also find a lot of good info regarding these issues in posts from William Smith, and other broadcast engineers who post(or have posted) on AVSofrum.


Let's say that the new station owners want a weather subchannel on 12-2 after the channel 11 inception. If I remember correctly, NBC O&O's limit their WeatherPlus to 1.8 mbps, and it looks pretty good here on WRC. With a modern encoder that's designed for lower bitrates, the quality can remain, even at bitrates approaching 1.5 mbps. In fact, I remember that this thread once mentioned how 5-2 was pressed toward levels that low during an NBC football game.


I think Weather Plus(at 640x480)/weather channels are a bit different animal than providing quality SD video from various sources such as WKRC-DT's "CinCW" 12.2(CW, various syndicated+classic TV programs), SD multicast service("subchannel").


From there, it looks like there's under 30 kbps used per A/V stream (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9728748#post9728748) for what I'll assume to be PSIP and EPG data.


The bitrate reporting from TSreader screenshot for the streams you refer to are for MPEG2 PAT (program association table) and MPEG2 PMT (program Map table).

It's been a while since I've studied or researched the MPEG2 or ATSC white papers(including PSIP), and don't have the time currently to dig them up off a CD, so I'm a little rusty on this as it isn't something I deal with on an everyday basis as is the case for the broadcast engineers. So, I'm not sure whether or not the PSIP tables(STT, EIT(EPG info), VCT, ETT, etc), or for that matter EIA-708 captioning data are included in those streams.


WebHopperWeasel: Is that all the bandwidth needed to broadcast such data? If not, what's a more appropriate total?*


Somewhere "way back"(I think it was on this thread or an earlier cincinnati thread that would be in archived area), AVSforum member+KET Engineer talked a bit about how much is used for PSIP. If I recall correctly(and I may not be), it was higher than that, but I may be remembering it wrong.



With a VBR system, a little more HD bandwidth can be allotted at times, though this will add to the cost of the encoder system. But be careful: Unlike the current arrangement, please don't be afraid to have some macroblocking and/or artifacting on the subchannel on occasion, because who will care? :)


Isn't it a given stations which are doing Statistical Multiplexing(such as WKRC-DT, WCVN-DT, WLWT-DT, and I think WCET-DT and perhaps a couple of others as well, but can't say for sure -- maybe WHIO-DT these days also) would be doingVariable bitrate encoding (VBR) ? Or, am I remembering The "term" for VBR "wrong" ?

Anyone who wants full-bandwidth CW-HD can point their antennas towards Dayton, for all I care. :cool: :D


We already do.

I'll clarify, stations right now send SD signal to the cable companies mainly through fiber,


Sometimes that's the case, but cable+DBS headends often use OTA instead to pick up the signals. Using both fiber+OTA for reduncancy(in case the fiber has problems/is cut or the OTA signal gets knocked off air) would probably be the best thing for them to do.


2009 shouldn't fundamentally change how cable/sat providers get their signals, just how the station itself can broadcast it OTA.

Oh, it will effect cable as well, not necessarily specifically "how" the cable/sat providers get the signals, but how they are provided to their customers. As Terry said, how the local affiliates digital signals will be carried for SD cable(including but not limited to those with analog only sets) viewers has yet to be fully detirmined.

In short, couple of things from earlier posts:


WLWT can start a DT station on channel 31 in 2009, using WKRC's current frequency.


Can they? Don't count on it.


Does WXIX have any subchannels right now?


Yes, WXIX-DT has "The Tube".

Instead of creating/wasting bandwidth for SD channels for cable and those with 4:3 screens, I would guess that stations could keep doing what they are doing now.


I agree. And, at present, the general gist of what I hear from the broadcasters who post on AVSforum seems to agree with that as well -- To clarify, from what I can tell they aren't talking about sending a seperate 4x3 SD feed OTA(the stations or the networks from what I gather, although I haven't heard a lot concerning the latter ), or to the cable/sat headends via fiber or anything else.

Also, I think they are more interested in adding multicast services in hopes to add revenue streams rather than use their bandwidth(or construct new stations to do so!) for SD digital 4x3 simulcasts which don't "add" to the bottom line figures ....

However, I think mikemikeb does make some good points concerning the "problems" involved. Such as :

#1). Consider that Weasel just told us that the reason they are currently distorting AR(in WKRC's case during CBS+syndicated programming, anyway) on their SD feed when providing school closings(that includes the analog station) is because too many people complain about "borders" or "bars" if they were to resize the horizontal size of the picture to preserve proper AR, in which case the picture wouldn't "fill their screen".

#2). Although we see a lot of 16x9 letterboxed programming on NBC and PBS SD feeds and have for quite some time, and all of MYTV is done that way, and a lot of it via SD in commercials everwhere .... For instance, CBS, ABC, Fox and CW send 4x3 "center cut" SD feeds of all or nearly all of their 16x9 HD programming, which is used by analog stations, and then there are the commercials such as mikemikeb mentioned that are framed differently for the 4x3 and 16x9 HD feeds.

#3). I think AFD as implemented on 4x3 sets would take care of the side "pillar bars" on 4x3 programming transmitted "within" a 16x9 format sent by the digital station, and that it can take care of the letterboxed+pillar bars during 16x9 SD content we see "letterboxed" AND pillarboxed as well, on both 16x9(letterbox+pillar bars) or 4x3(pillarbars only) sets. However, I wonder when AFD is going to be widely implemented, both by broadcasters(and cablenets/etc) AND when did(or will) all the TV's+stb's out there support it? See what I mean, I really think feb 17, 2009 is a lot "closer" than many folks seem to realize ...

Assuming in the best of circumstances #3 ends up working out well(at least eventually+at some point) --- Although hopefully as the next two years progress more and more folks are going to become more and more aware of the DTV transistion, nevertheless it still may be the case some Folks may become be awfully "surprised" if most Network programming they are used to seeing in 4x3 becomes 16x9 Letterboxed on their 4x3 sets when they get that new SDTV set, DTV converter box, or if they(or their "SD cable/sat provider) waits until Feb 17, 2009 to start watching(or cable/sat providers providing it) the digitals instead of the analogs .....

So, just what are they going to do about that, if they do "get rid" of the 4x3 SD feeds(excepting anything that is 4x3 that is "upconverted" at net or station) after analog shut off ? It starts getting complicated real quick ..... Sure, A center cut could still be done along with the downrezzing to 480i Digital SD or analog SD(either at cable head ends or by the viewers equipment), but they'd probably only want to do that when the production is done with a 4x3 "safe area" in mind, as is only the case currently for the shows you see in HD on the nets, but 4x3 SD on the analog stations.

Sending a "seperate" 4x3 SD digital feed doesn't make sense to me at this point, in addition to it being a waste of bandwidth, given that more and more programming is being framed for 16x9, anyway. While there are some stations sending a 4x3 SD digital 'simulcast', currently, I think they are likely doing that in most, if not all cases in order to provide a good signal to cableco headends who use OTA and have problems with their analog signal. That's probably especially more common when the Analog station is on Low-VHF, where electrical+other internference can be more of a problem. Of course, WDTN-DT is the only one out of 15 cincy/Dayton DTV stations doing that now - a few others have done it in the past, but have discontinued doing that.

Furthermore, I even think this relates to some extent to the future of 4x3 SD (and SD multicasting thereof) as a "viable" format ... Certianly, there's enough content out there originally captured on SD videotape formats, that will NEVER be HD, as well as filmed content that could be transferred to HD, but will still need to remain 4x3. However, although we see a lot of that now, it might not be all that too far off when we consider 4x3 SD to be more of a rarity, of a nature along the lines of "historical footage", or "Classic TV nostalgia" ....

It's hard to see it now, given all the SD out there, but keep in mind it was a long time before there was a lot of "color" programming as well .... In that regard, except for perhaps the occasional application for SD such as "weather radar subchannel", or for "classic TV shows" or "home shopping" on LP digital stations or cable/sat channels, my hope is that there really isn't a long term, viable future or 'business model" for SD broadcasts via OTA, cable OR satellite... Which does make me wonder a bit why broadcasters are putting so much effort into it now, except that I know the day to day bottom line for broadcasters is often more of what they look at vs. the long term "plan" .... Just look at Webhopper(originally called "deltaV I believe) and how much CC probably spent on that+how long it lasted, and how much they made from it ... I suppose if things had been different, I might see more of a long term future for SD -- such as "widescreen" SD ...

I said this a long time ago, but the way it has/is working out it seems to me this "transistion" is really going to end up being as much about a mainstream transistion to 16x9 as it is about HD, SD digital or the transistion from analog to digital broadcasting.

Yes, I know there are still many 4x3 SD sets being sold in U.S., And I could be wrong, but I think, mostly because the HD cat is already out of the bag, it's too late to change that, not that I'd want to ;-) If anything, I wish it could(could have) happened faster. For instance, I think the wiser thing to have done would have been not only to "require" ATSC receivers in all TV sets/recording devices around the time the stations began coming on air(around 1998/1999), but also to have required all sets beginning around that time to have had a 16x9 screen .... That sounds nice in hindsight, but of course would likely have been extremely difficult to implement at that time without "breaking the bank" ... Meaning at the time, you wouldn't have been able to purchase a $200~300 25" TV, even a 13" incher would probably have costs 1,000's ... at least for a while ....

Ok, time to get off the "soapbox" .....

In any case, it's like the wild wild west(but with some questionable regulation by the government, LOL) ..... I think there are Lots of questions, few good answers at this point that would please everyone(or nearly so) regarding these sorts of things, really.

Instead of creating/wasting bandwidth for SD channels for cable and those with 4:3 screens, I would guess that stations could keep doing what they are doing now. I'll clarify, stations right now send SD signal to the cable companies mainly through fiber, so once 2009 rolls around, they can continue to do that. The analog shut-off shouldn't affect cable/sat feeds at all.
That's why I like fiber delivery. But, what about those headends that pick up signals OTA only? Will both they and the stations be able to use AFD info to switch between widescreen and panscreen (4x3) for content? Will they be willing to implement it in the first place? How much would it cost?

Of course, if the networks decide to do HD-only transmission after analog shut-off, then that should make SD-only transmission interesting... :cool:

You can't just look at the channels that are not being used in a given market and assume they are "open" for use by a new station in that market, or where the predicted contour's end and assume any other area outside of the contour is necessarily "available". It can be quite complex if you've ever read through an interference study submitted to FCC by engineers. As just one part of that, for example, currently there is WHAS 11, Louisville, KY to be "concerned" about.
Looked at the WHAS 11 and WCPO-DT maps for comparison. :eek:. There goes CW 11.

In Feb. 2009, channels 7, 8, and 9 will physically open in the Cincinnati area, because Dayton's 7 and Cincinnati's 9 will go offline (remember, WCPO-DT will stay on 10). I wouldn't be willing to pick 7 or 9, but CW 8 might be a possibility. Is there something I'm missing?

(Personally, I think that WCPO should have filed to move to 9 in 2009, but that's just me.)

I know of several stations (they are sending 720p however) in the area which use the Harmonic MV500.
I wonder if WCPO is one of them. I have read from WCPO's site itself that they upgraded to a new encoder in early 2006, but I would suspect that NetVX got the order due to the general timing between the NetVX release and WCPO's installation date.

I think Weather Plus(at 640x480)/weather channels are a bit different animal than providing quality SD video from various sources such as WKRC-DT's "CinCW" 12.2(CW, various syndicated+classic TV programs), SD multicast service("subchannel").
No way would I treat those two sources the same. Wx+ is MUCH lower-motion than the CW in any form. That's why I suggest using the current encoder system that WKRC now has on any potential CinCW station, because it apparently can deliver great PQ for the subchannel, which in my case, I'd use for CBS-SD. What else would the subchannel be used for? :)

Isn't it a given stations which are doing Statistical Multiplexing(such as WKRC-DT, WCVN-DT, WLWT-DT, and I think WCET-DT and perhaps a couple of others as well, but can't say for sure -- maybe WHIO-DT these days also) would be doingVariable bitrate encoding (VBR) ? Or, am I remembering The "term" for VBR "wrong" ?
Nope.

Sometimes that's the case, but cable+DBS headends often use OTA instead to pick up the signals. Using both fiber+OTA for reduncancy(in case the fiber has problems/is cut or the OTA signal gets knocked off air) would probably be the best thing for them to do.
The cost/practicality vs. convenience argument comes into play, especially for headends at a longer distance than most from the transmitter.

[Referring to the idea of WLWT starting a new station in Cincinnati] Can they? Don't count on it.
I don't think that it would happen, but is there any reason at the technical level that precludes them from putting an SD multicasting station online on 31 in 2009, even at a lower power, like 250 kW? For example, will there be WHAS-like interference issues? Does Hearst/Argyle already have an area duopoly? If the frequency is wide open and anybody can take it after analog shut-off... WLWT could make money back on the station by making deals with deals like AmericanLife TVNet, LinkTV, or "LATV" (that channel is coming online in markets like Orlando and Houston). If The Tube is still around then, maybe they could woo it from WXIX.

Speaking of The Tube and WXIX, I've read that The Tube is in a deep financial crisis, and may not survive the analog shut-off. If that channel goes off the air, perhaps FOX-SD could get on 19-2.

I think they are more interested in adding multicast services in hopes to add revenue streams rather than use their bandwidth(or construct new stations to do so!) for SD digital 4x3 simulcasts which don't "add" to the bottom line figures ....
I suspect that many stations will want their cake and eat it too. See WETA-DT, which broadcasts one 1080i channel and three (not a typo) SD subchannels. :eek: I wonder how many other stations will broadcast like this in the future.

I wonder when AFD is going to be widely implemented, both by broadcasters(and cablenets/etc) AND when did(or will) all the TV's+stb's out there support it?
Maybe it'll be more viable in the short term if there's focus at solely the cable/satellite headend and station level, THEN expand it wide to consumer level goods.

Folks may become be awfully "surprised" if most Network programming they are used to seeing in 4x3 becomes 16x9 Letterboxed on their 4x3 sets when they get that new SDTV set, DTV converter box, or if they(or their "SD cable/sat provider) waits until Feb 17, 2009 to start watching(or cable/sat providers providing it) the digitals instead of the analogs .....
It's an intriguing question: How many people will complain at that? How many stations will start an analog-like 4x3 stream as a response, or put them up before shutoff to prevent "granny calls"?

It's hard to see it now, given all the SD out there, but keep in mind it was a long time before there was a lot of "color" programming as well
Never mind that color TV programming had the same aspect ratio as black-and-white, and color broadcasting was completely backwards and forwards compatible between black+white and color TVs.

Sending a "seperate" 4x3 SD digital feed doesn't make sense to me at this point, in addition to it being a waste of bandwidth, given that more and more programming is being framed for 16x9, anyway. ... I think they are likely doing that in most, if not all cases in order to provide a good signal to cableco headends who use OTA and have problems with their analog signal. That's probably especially more common when the Analog station is on Low-VHF, where electrical+other internference can be more of a problem. Of course, WDTN-DT is the only one out of 15 cincy/Dayton DTV stations doing that now - a few others have done it in the past, but have discontinued doing that.
Right now, there's an analog station of some kind that the cable headends have to fall back on, and by March of 2009, what will replace it in a truly viable sense? Yes, some of the headends will have fiber delivery, but what about the OTA people? Until a vast majority of programming is broadcast in widescreen (I'm thinking 60%, and I suppose widescreen SD is OK), and people are cool with letterboxed TV in general, or something like 75% of TVs in use are widescreen, it will be quite viable to send an SD stream. One day, it won't be so viable. Let's hope that day comes sooner rather than later.

Ok, if I don't cover anything in enough detail or accuracy below, I apologize, but this is going to have to be about the last one for this(these discussions) "like this" for me ....

Will both they and the stations be able to use AFD info to switch between widescreen and panscreen (4x3) for content? Will they be willing to implement it in the first place? How much would it cost? ...... Maybe it'll be more viable in the short term if there's focus at solely the cable/satellite headend and station level, THEN expand it wide to consumer level goods.....


Implementation of AFD (Active format descriptior) is something everyone gets. It involves adding information to MPEG2 stream which describes the format of the video for proper display. It should not be difficult to implement, either for the provider or for user equipment. I wouldn't be surprised if there was already consumer equipment that supports it. Google for "AFD+ATSC" and/or See here :

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/atsc/2006.07.12-f_JerryWhitaker.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Format_Descriptor


In Feb. 2009, channels 7, 8, and 9 will physically open in the Cincinnati area, because Dayton's 7 and Cincinnati's 9 will go offline (remember, WCPO-DT will stay on 10). I wouldn't be willing to pick 7 or 9, but CW 8 might be a possibility. Is there something I'm missing?


There could be potential for co-channel interference issues involving WISH-DT 9 Indianapolis, WLIO-DT 8 Lima, and WLJC-DT 7 Beattyville, KY.

Also, again these things are very complicated. I would not begin to suggest that I am aware of all the potential interference or "technical" issues that might be involved with any given channel that may appear to be "open" in any given market now, or post analog shut off. They aren't limited to "co-channel" issues, for example.

Somewhere in the FCC rules, as well as if I recall correctly an appendix of one of the DTV R&O's, you'll find info on some the things that FCC looks at when evaluating an application or petition for a new station on any given channel, which should at least help you to understand how complicated this stuff can be.

Also available which might help you to understand some of the potential issues involved, on FCC site in some cases attached to some of the applications stations submit to FCC for modifications to their facilites(or in some cases their original applications for DTV construction permits) are techinical and interference studies submitted by engineers to help "make their case" to the FCC that the proposed facility won't cause undue interference(in some cases they submit interference agreements with stations they do have a interference conflict with).


(Personally, I think that WCPO should have filed to move to 9 in 2009, but that's just me.)


Off the top of my head, WISH-DT 9 would probably be the biggest issue there.

The channel election rules were such that they generally provided pretty much "absolute" interference protection for station's current digital channel allocation. That was not the case for stations analog assignments -- In other words, if WCPO had elected to move to channel 9, they likely would have had to somewhat limit their maximum coverage area, as they would have to make sure their facilities did not cause any interference to WISH-DT 9's coverage area.

As an example of this, Originally, WRGT-DT 30(analog 45)+WKEF-DT 51(analog 22) Dayton did elect their analog channel assignments. However, they received "conflict" notices from FCC. I don't know what those conflict notices specifically said, however one might assume WXIN-DT(45) could have been an issue involved for WRGT-DT. I'd also assume 1st adjacent channel WBNS-DT 21 Columbus may have been a factor for WKEF.

While it's true adjacent channel operation of DTV stations is much more possible than is the case with analog, there can still be issues involved. FCC says for instance, 1st adjacent channel U/D ratio should be a maximum of 46db. In other words, theoretically, according to FCC 1st adjacent channel stations "should" be receivable if the difference in signal levels are as much as 46db. Also, keep in mind, 1st adjacent channel DTV operation works best when the stations are co-located. 1st adjacent channel issues aren't the only issues involved besides "co-channel issues", either. You may find some interesting reading regarding some of those potential problem issues related to superhetrodyne receivers and certian channel relationships in several Charles Rhodes columns in TVtechnology.

While you might think, "well, WCPO 9 and WISH-DT 9 are on the same channel now, so it seems to me it should work after analog shut off as well" .... That's co-channel NTSC + DTV. There are different paramenters involved for co-channel DTV to DTV. Also, it was probably necessary during the transistion for stations+the commission to allow some things that might not be desireable otherwise, in order to "fit" all the analog+DTV stations in.


Nope.


Ok, I'll provide a little info on this, then.

CBR=Constant bitrate encoding.
VBR=Variable bitrate encoding.

Statistical Multiplexing (stat mux) = A method used to allocate/share a fixed pool of bandwidth among multiple services("subchannels"). In other words, this is generally used so More bandwidth can be allocated to a particular service as the content at any given time requires, in order to improve PQ. "Priorities" can be set, so for example the HD service can "steal" bandwidth from another service when HD needs it, even if perhaps the SD service quality will suffer because of it.

From a "decoding" perspective, the bitrate via services implementing Stat mux in our area are variable, and that is mostly what I was reffering to. The encoder itself could be VBR (such as using the look ahead or feedback methods of Stat mux, or perhaps others) OR it could be CBR, via a method(or perhaps others) described in link farther below, where the encoder can operate with a constant bitrate, but varible bitrate can occur at GOP (group of pictures) boundries, or at scene changes.

http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/rd/434/boroczky.html

In any case, due to the subjective nature of "picture quality" involved, we could probably debate the following until the cows come home(as has been the case over+over again for many years on AVSforum) to no avail.

But, I don't agree with your earlier assertion that the implementation of VBR, certian, current encoders which are popular in terms of their performance and effiiceny and bitrates of ~17Mb/s Maximum would result in "as good" quality as is possible, currently at 18.5Mb/s or so(about the max avialable with ATSC 8VSB OTA in a 6MHZ channel) during bandwidth demanding portions of 1080i content.

And again, I agree with what the CBS engineers said in the article, and again, I'm certian they were aware of the possibilities which you suggest regarding certian encoders, VBR/etc when they made that statement.

It's not like an implemented available maximum for HD video of "18.5" Mb/s produces "perfect 1080i HD quality" in all circumstances via MPEG2 either, or a somewhat "equivilent" about 15~16Mb/s for 720p. We'd probably need a max of 23~30Mb/s for 1080i(again, DR1394 has posted details on that, you'll need to dig up those posts for more specific figures, explanation and details) for about as good as we could get during the most bandwidth demanding portions of content for that. Even those of us who have seen 1080i HD presented at a max bitrate above 18Mb/s are aware of this --- "strobes"/Flash photography seem to be a particular "problem" with MPEG2 encoding. You may have seen evidence of this during CBS pre-superbowl coverage, during a story on Hines Ward, where he was in a dark room with a lot of flash photography was occuring, with the reflections of those flashes reflecting off the walls. It was a mess of "macroblocking" so to speak, even with the apparent recent improvments from WHIO-DT, and I've seen a problem with that sort of thing(but to a lesser severity) even from stations that were NOT multicasting.

To make a little bit of an "analogy" here ... An apples and oranges comparsion to be sure, but I think it at least somewhat "illustrates" the problem ... If you take a hi resolution, detailed uncompressed TIF still image, and apply different levels of JPEG compression ... I think you'll notice, if you look/examine things very closely, while you may notice a bit of "digital looking, "jaggie looking" compression artifacts at lower compression ratios, at some certian point, the compression artifacts start becoming quite apparent and "problematical", and from that point get progressively worse VERY quickly as you increase compression ratio farther.

I think much the same is true with MPEG2 encoding in a "seat of pants apples to oranges comparison" manner, and generally it seems to me from what I have seen, that certian "point where it starts getting really bad during portions of bandwidth demanding content" for 1080i HD seems to be (with current equipment at least) somewhere in the range of 16~18Mb/s, whearas I'm guessing the point where it starts getting somewhat noticable at all is probabably in the range of 20~23 MB/s .... Now, keep in mind again, I'm talking about the most "bandwidth" demanding portions of content. Obviously, *MOST* of the time, high quality can be preserved during *most* program content with much Lower bitrates.

Which is no surprise, as it seems very much along the lines of the ATTC recommendations on this, after the tests they performed -- What they recommended was -- stations doing 1080i should *not* multicast, and that multicasting 1 SD channel with 720p would work fine. Gee, that seems to be what I'm "seeing" as well, even many years after those tests, even in cases via encoders with improved efficiency(sorry, although I know what some of the stations are using and doing, unless I have permission to do so, or I recall a station' engineer's post here with that info I Usually don't get too specific about it here).

Although, Concerning 720p and ATTC recomendations, heck I've been very impressed with what KET has done multicasting 2 QUALITY SD services + 1 Quality(and yes, I'd consider it "high quality") 720p HD service. In fact, I'm not saying it never happens, but currently, I don't see any issues with "macroblocking" or "digital looking artifacts" on their PBS HD(they transcode it to 720p) service at all. So I don't have to write a "book" about it, other wise I will just say at times(not allways, and not necessarily where you'd expect if certian video frequencies were being filtered to decrease the amount of "digital looking" MPEG2 compression artifacts) it may appear a bit "soft" for some reason, and that does not seem to be the case with my equipment+other sources of 720p.

Now, if it were(or ever becomes) possible to do "real time" MPEG2 HD encoding with the same level of efficency that is possible for the "tweaked" bitrates we see on DVD "big hollywood movie" releases via "non-real time" encoding methods(such as 2 pass encoding as one example) -- I don't know, but I *assume* some substanial improvments in lowering of "needed bitrate" during bandwidth demanding content could occur.

And, don't get me wrong -- I'm not one to suggest the bitrate "numbers" are of uptmost importance here ... I think it's the compression ratio, and efficiency of the encoding/encoders being used are probably the most important "factors" .... As, I don't really care WHAT the bitrate is, I just want to see High quality HD pictures as much as *is possible* at all times, I don't care what the "numbers" are, really. And, I have seen that (pretty much) with 1080i, but can't say that's the case in any case I have seen currently when stations are sending 1080i and multicasting, and for me where this issue is concerned, seeing is believing ....


The cost/practicality vs. convenience argument comes into play, especially for headends at a longer distance than most from the transmitter.


Yes.

From a personal perspective only, as a OTA viewer who could really care less about how signals are delievered to cableco/DBS headends, or how they are delivered to cable/DBS customers , I'm in favor of stations placing a high degree of importance on their off-air signal, regarding issues such as the use of backup-generators for power outages. I even like the idea of "backup" transmitters+transmitting antennas. If you notice, WLWT analog apparently has a license for what I'm assuming is one of these at 69.2 KW ERP which pops up on FCC site under a "TS" designation.

However, no matter what they do - providing the signal via fiber or OTA or both for redundancy, as we've seen, there is "Murphy's law", and there are certianly things that can still happen ... I recall hearing from someone at WCPO at the time that a Lighting hit "got into" WCPO's studios several years ago and while it didn't knock their RF signal off the air, it affected some of their equipment for the DTV station such that there was no video or audio available on the DTV signal(OTA or fiber feeds would have been effected) for a certian period.


I don't think that it would happen, but is there any reason at the technical level that precludes them from putting an SD multicasting station online on 31 in 2009, even at a lower power, like 250 kW?


Again, I would not even begin to suggest that I'm aware of all the possible issues that might be involved in order to say "yes" or "no" to your quiestion in a definitive way, nor have I spent much time looking for such issues. In short, WANE-DT 31 might be of some concern, as might potential 1st adjacent channel issues involving WRGT-DT 30 dayton.

Also, I realize you are not necessarily saying this, but 250KW ERP is by no means a low power DTV operation.

As far as "technical issues" go, also, keep in mind those aren't limited to whether or not they'd be "allowed" to put a new station in Cincinnati there someday. for instance, The station has to build out the new plant(which is not inexpensive), and have a place to put the transmitting antenna, a place that will support it. These might seem like "simple things" but the are not. As one example, for much of Spring summer 2002, WCET/WLWT had to operate at low power from reduced temporary antenna heights while their tower was strengthened to support the "permanent" full power WCET/WLWT digital transmitting antennas. during that time, WLWT-DT often was off air, when they were on air, it was at low power from lower temporary antenna. It was a big project for them, and at times, the top 1/2 of the tower was "on the ground" for the work. During that period also, WLWT-DT replaced their Transmitter. They were originally licensed for 65 KW ERP "full power", but later received a 1000KW ERP CP.

Also, this is not "technical", but you seem to be thinking anyone who wants to build a new station just needs an open channel and all they have to do is send FCC some "letters'' or documentation and they'll be granted a CP to build it. It doesn't work quite like that. Just to give you an idea, there's been an app from Pappas on FCC site for a new analog full power station on channel 32 for a location between columbus+Dayton, which they submitted in 1996. At one point, in 2001, the app was dismissed by FCC, due to an amendment to the app not being filed to "fix" a interference concern with a DTV facility, during a period when there was a filing window. A month later, Pappas filed for a "petition for reconsideration" and the application was reinstanted by FCC in 2002. There has been no new activity since then, I don't know why that is.

Here are the "legal action notes" regarding this application :

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/leg_det.pl?Application_id=229428&File_number=BPCT-19960722KP

Unfortunetly, the application itself(and any attached documents - sometimes those are available to the public via FCC site, sometimes they arent)does not seem to be available, which might tell us a little more about how they were able to get the oppurtinity to file an application for a new station, as well as a bit of the techincal issues involved. Usually, You'd be to click on an "application" link to retrieve that info here, but not in this case, as you can see, it's not active :

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_list.pl?Facility_id=83149

I don't know of examples for you to look at which would be more along the lines of what you are suggesting, however as another example to show how that does work sometimes, here's list of applications/documents submitted to FCC involving WDKY-DT, Lexington, KY :

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_list.pl?Facility_id=64017

Click on the link labeled "application" next to the "DT" "Granted" entry in the list, with a Granted date of 9/29/2004.

Here's the link directly :http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=100702393&formid=301&fac_num=64017

This is their application for Construction permit for their current digital station - Now, after looking at some of the info in the application, at the bottom of the application, click on the "compreshensive technical exhibit" and read, once it's downloaded, it's fairly large (PDF) file as I recall. -- You should find some evidence here of just how "complicated" some of this stuff can be .....

What you don't know however, and can't tell from this is, the difficultly this station had in getting their full power DTV station (On Low VHF DTV 4) to "work out" ... They had problems getting permission to build a new tower(which was necessary because their old tower couldn't support the DTV antenna). Then, they had problems finding a tower site/getting permission/etc. to build the new tower. Before this was going on, they also petitioned FCC to have their DTV allotment changed to a UHF channel 22. Originally, another station in Lexington (WLEX-DT) was allocated channel 22 for DTV, but because of interference concerns involving first adjacent channel WUPX-DT 21, Morehead, KY, WLEX-DT sucessfully petitioned FCC for a change to channel 39, which is where they are. Well, in short(there's more to this story of course), WDKY-DT thought Channel 22 would work for them, so they asked FCC if they could have it ... The answer was no.

All of that, which took many years to work out, for a Digital station which were already "alloted" a DTV channel assignment per FCC's DTV "table of allotments", which were done by FCC+designed to allocate digital channels to all full service analog stations such that, as much as possible their DTV "full power" coverage during the transistion would match their analog coverage area.

What I'm getting at here, is, this is nothing compared to the difficulties faced by someone seeking to build a "new" full power Station, which are not necessarily allways "technical" in nature, although, there really isn't going to be room for many more of them after analog shut off. that was the idea, auction off spectrum, not make room for "more stations" after analog shut off. The way it's going, the place where there will be, evidently, quite a bit of room for new stations will be on VHF 2-6, not 7-51. Athough, we even have an app on file currently for a digital LP transmitting from Oxford on channel 6 ......


WLWT could make money back on the station by making deals with deals like AmericanLife TVNet, LinkTV, or "LATV" (that channel is coming online in markets like Orlando and Houston). If The Tube is still around then, maybe they could woo it from WXIX.


As for some of the programming services you mention, those sound to me like better fits for the hopefully soon to come cincinnati LP digital stations for WBQC and/or WOTH. As I mentioned recently, WOTH-LP has a digital companion channel CP for 47 which was granted by FCC about a month ago(15KW ERP from nice high spot on WCPO's tower, should get out very well judging by how well their analog LP signals get out), WBQC-CA app for one is still currently in Limbo.

WBQC-CA was the UPN affilate (they were WB affilaite at one time as well, but swapped with WSTR - hence "WBQC - WB Queen City" I assume), is now an indepenant that airs programming such as "Quincy", "Magnum P.I", Local programming such as "Lincoln ware show". WOTH does some home shopping, but it's more "America One" I believe(or whatefer they're calling "A1" now). -- Old B&W movies,-- they also air quite a bit of sports programming -- Including CBC feeds of CBC football, Auto racing/etc.

I think it's going to be very interesting to see What WBQC+WOTH do with DTV. At one time, I talked to their owner, and he seemed very excited about HD/UPN HD, but of course the situation is very different for them, now.


Right now, there's an analog station of some kind that the cable headends have to fall back on, and by March of 2009, what will replace it in a truly viable sense?


I have no wish to debate you on this, but I'm going to try one more time. The feed from the digital station would be "truly viable".

If we follow your line of reasoning(which I'm not, but I'll do it here), as I already said, 16x9 could be center cut to 4x3 at either the cable head end or with the user's equipment to fill the screen, and that could fill your requirements for what you think is "viable". If it's important enough as you seem to think, then that seems like the most cost effective thing for them to do. As for the "user equipment"/OTA part, I have a DTV receiver that's over 4 years old that will do that, now. And no, I'm not saying there isn't equipment that's out there that won't allow you to do that.


Yes, some of the headends will have fiber delivery, but what about the OTA people? Until a vast majority of programming is broadcast in widescreen (I'm thinking 60%, and I suppose widescreen SD is OK), and people are cool with letterboxed TV in general, or something like 75% of TVs in use are widescreen, it will be quite viable to send an SD stream.


It may be viable, but I see little reason for it. It's not as if 16x9 letterboxed programming isn't "viable", even currently.

Are you suggesting people would not watch their favorite programming, and will turn the TV off if they have a 4x3 set and it shows up as 16x9 letterbox on their TV?

For instance, ER has been aired as 16x9 letterboxed via those analog stations for quite some time, and I don't think its ratings support that. Many other shows on NBC are presented that way as well.

Sure, the stations might get a lot of calls about it when programs that are currently 4x3 change to 16x9 from folks who want their screens to be "filled". I doubt however they are going to stop watching because of it.

and, maybe we'll start seeing more 16x9 letterboxing creep in from CBS, ABC and Fox on the analog feeds, maybe they'll soon start to "wean" folks off the 4x3 in efforts to prepare them ... Seems like a good idea to me ...

As for uneven phospor wear on 4x3 CRT sets, that's a problem, butat least for 16x9 content, it's not going to matter if the area in the "black bars" have "less-worn" phospors .... Although, wouldn't be surprised if we hear something about that issue .....

Update: Oh, if you read the tvtechnology article on AFD, you'll see AFD has some provisions for this as well, such as allowing the display device/etc. to add "grey bars" in the inactive screen area to make phospors(or whatever you call it for plasma sets/etc) in the inactive area active - Could there still be a problem on a set on which only(or pretty much) 16x9 content was viewed, say for 5 years at 12 hours a day? Well, sure it's possible unless they make it where the "grey bars" vary in intensity to match the luminosity of the active "content" area, but again it won't matter if all they're watching is 16x9 on it, and by that time, it might be time for a new set, anyway ...

oops, left this out ....


I suspect that many stations will want their cake and eat it too. See WETA-DT, which broadcasts one 1080i channel and three (not a typo) SD subchannels. :eek: I wonder how many other stations will broadcast like this in the future.


Know what you're saying(and WETA being a "flagship" sort of station at that), It isn't too hard to think that way is it ?

And, Perhaps in contrast to some of the stuff I said above .... Oh, sure I could see the possibility of some(or many?)stations adding a SD "granny" feed via that method for some of the reasons you've mentioned/we've discussed ...... i.e. just "squeeze" another one in to whatever we are already doing .... I sure hope not, though ...

But still, right now anway, I don't think it's as much about wanting their cake and eating it too as it is about paying the bills .... such as for the DTV/HD stations/ equipment ....

Tuning around tonight, I notice I like the way WLWT is occasionally, for short periods keying in a weather related crawl into SD at bottom of screen. It has a small "power of 5" graphic on the side, and the text crawl is a single line of text, they are not distorting AR when Keying it in, just very "tolerably" covering up a very small portion at bottom. It pops up for a few seconds, long enough for the text in the crawl to be displayed.

With apparently, more bad weather headed this way, I wonder if we're going to see much of anything different than last time concerning the weather graphics/school closings info/etc by this time tomorrow night or tuesday?

slightly Off Topic....anyone know of any of the local Cincinnat rental places that are renting either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray?? The 2 local Blockbusters (WestChester) and the Hollywood Video don't have either to rent.

^ Barhoram -- FWIW, Your question seems to me to be very much on topic for this thread :-)

Unfortunetly, however, I don't have an answer for your question, hopefully someone else will have some info ...

Did a little googling, though, and looks like if nothing else, you can do the online or by mail HD-DVD/Blu ray video rental thing ...

Nitewatchman, I recognise that this will be more of a "Just wanted to let everybody know" post than a "I want you to respond" post.

I see why WISH and WLIO wouldn't want to share the same channel. I won't go too much into that, as I want to get into a potential WCCW 8 for after the analog shut-off.

Yeah, I know that it doesn't seem too likely, but I looked at the FCC maps for WISH, WLIO, WLJC, and WCPO-DT for comparison, and though it's a tight squeeze, "WCCW 8" isn't a completely hopeless, CW 11 vs. WHAS 11 situation.

Comparing the WISH-DT map to WCPO-DT's map, the two contours do overlap, but over rural areas, and not by much. So, reducing the potential CW 8 power slightly, to anywhere from about five to eleven kW, will probably make CW 8 fit within FCC rules when it comes to that station. A similar situation applies to WLJC 7 as well, where alleviating WISH's problem should do so for WLJC, too.

Naturally, WLIO 8 infringes on the Cincinnati area the most since it would be a direct-channel interference threat to CinCW 8 (unlike WISH-DT and WLJC-DT), but its pattern only stretches to about ten miles north of Dayton at most. By alleviating the issues with WISH, the WLIO and WCCW contours wouldn't touch, and the lower the CW 8 power, the less the effect of tropo on WLIO, so that helps there.

Right now, WUSA in DC digitally broadcasts on channel 34. And you know what? So does WYBE in Philly. Those two contours, with their higher dBu limits or whatever they mean, come pretty close to touching, and they apparently coexist peacefully. Just to note: One station broadcasts at 1,000,000 watts; the other one, 500,000 watts. With WCCW/WLIO, it would be 27,500 watts and up to 11,000 watts. Also, the use of a highly directional antenna, like the Winegard HD7082P, will help against tropo, at least in most areas.

I'm not saying it would be a cakewalk to get it, or the FCC would issue a CP for it right away, but a Cincinnati DT station on 8 is technically possible, at least after analog shutoff. And, if the power level is low enough, the effects on tropo toward Lima will be minimized significantly. I do suggest that the surrounding stations all collaborate with WKRC's future owners, and each other, on this, so the chances that the FCC will grant a CP quickly increases.

As for the cost of new equipment, it might be possible to get the new owner's higher-ups to approve it by using the HD argument, especially for a station that's not HD right now around the region.

Actually, the "point" of WCCW 8 isn't to get a CW-HD affiliation in Cincinnati, or a surefire, AFD-less CBS-SD affiliate in town for after analog shut-off (or a weather subchannel :)), as much as it is to have the potential for full-bandwidth WKRC-HD. So why fight it if it's possible?

P.S. I wonder if the FCC can create a construction permit in a way that the station in question can't be turned on until after analog shut-off. Maybe they can make that kind of a CP up from scratch, with a resolution or something?

P.P.S. I won't bother asking more about AFD here, at least for a while, as there are other places in the forum to do that in greater detail. I suspect that there's more for me to know about it.

slightly Off Topic....anyone know of any of the local Cincinnat rental places that are renting either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray?? The 2 local Blockbusters (WestChester) and the Hollywood Video don't have either to rent.



http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=788831&page=1&pp=30


It doesn't show any stores in your area yet but Blockbuster does have 2 locations in Northern KY that rent HD-DVD/Blu Ray. Keep checking that thread though.

Nitewatchman, I recognise that this will be more of a "Just wanted to let everybody know" post than a "I want you to respond" post.


No offense meant, however, If I'm reading that right, It doesn't really matter whether you "want me to respond" or not.

Also, If you are in some way reffering to the preface of my last response to you, what I meant was :

I do not have the time, or motivation to continue to respond to some of your comments in the detail I have been doing/attempting. Especially, as the more we've "progressed" into these discussions, the more it seems apparent to me that for whatever reasons, the effort and time I've taken to attempt to accurately respond to your comments, to the best of my ability, hasn't been very effective.

In any case, if/when they have some extra time, hopefully perhaps some of the engineers who read or post here would be able to more effectively address some of your questions and "comments". [update, Or, you'll be able to find what you're looking for elsewhere on AVSforum or from other sources].

Nevertheless, for various reasons, I do feel compelled to make some comments, below.


....... a Cincinnati DT station on 8 is technically possible ..... "WCCW 8" isn't a completely hopeless, CW 11 vs. WHAS 11 situation.


I didn't say it was "hopeless", and I didn't say it was not technically possible. I did attempt to respond to your speculation, comments and questions in a reasonable and accurate manner, as my current knowledge of such matters permits.

However, In regards to channel 8 --- I should note I did forget to mention another potential problem for a full service Cincy DT on channel 8 : WBNA-DT 8 Louisville, KY. They're on 8 currently(analog 21), and are currently on FCC's proposed new DTV table of allotments for post-transistion operation on channel 8.

Certianly, I suppose the UWD's(unlicensed wireless devices),----- if allowed to be implemented in "white spaces" as is currently on the table for Congress+FCC -- will need some "open channels", otherwise :

"technically" speaking, I would speculate that there will probably be at least a few possibilities for room for new full service digital stations in the area after analog shut off. Still, again, I would not begin to say I'm aware of all the potential issues involved in any given case/for any given channel, and I am certian that you are not either.

Indeed, at this point and based on what I *do* know(and again, I may not know enough to even speculate wisely), post transistion on VHF, channel 7 seems to me to be one of the better possbilities. Now, WIPB-DT(Their DT is out of core on 52, analog on 49), Muncie Indiana did submit channel 7 as a "secondary" choice in their 2nd round channel election app to FCC(in this case they gave their preferences, but left it up to FCC to decide), however, 23 was their first choice, and they are currently shown in info at FCC site with a channel desgination of "23" for post-transistion operation.

On UHF, I would agree Channel 31 might be a good possibility post-transistion as well. I didn't say it wasn't possible, I just said "don't count on it", and I wasn't reffering specifically, and solely to "technical" issues.


but its pattern only stretches to about ten miles north of Dayton at most.


Which is a significant issue, and is why I mentioned WLIO-DT being a potential interference issue involved. Fringe area Reception of Cincinnati stations is commonly possible from 10 miles North of Dayton.


By alleviating the issues with WISH, the WLIO and WCCW contours wouldn't touch, and the lower the CW 8 power ...

Assuming the 36dbu service-area contours in this case "wouldn't touch" with your proposed "WCCW" facilites doesn't necessarily mean it still wouldn't be a important issue of concern for both WLIO and and your speculative proposal for "WCCW".

I've already mentioned this, but Ok, I'll make it even easier for you. In addition to looking at the predicted service area contour maps while formulating your speculative proposals concerning what channels a "future" new DTV station in cincinnati may be able to utilize, Here are some links which should be useful for you :


C.F.R., title 47, 73.622 "DTV Table of Allotments" (http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2007/73/622/) - Note - be sure to "scroll down", lots of stuff in there ....

C.F.R., Title 47, 73.623 "DTV Applications and Changes to DTV allotments" (http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2007/73/623/)

You might also want to carefully study the other FCC rules as pertains to broadcast TV/DTV, and many of the FCC DTV related documents which can be found/downloaded from here :

http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/


I'm not saying it would be a cakewalk to get it, or the FCC would issue a CP for it right away,


New channel allocations for new, post-transistion full service DTV stations aren't even on the radar, AFAIK.

Update/correction follows(and removed previous info on petitioning FCC for new analog channel allotments) :

As for how it could possibly be done, See FCC rules in CFR part 73.622(paragraph a(before the table of allotments listing) and "c"(after the tabel of allotment listing) and 73.623 regarding the procedure and requirements to petition FCC for new DTV channel allotment(where a new station could operate) in a given community. I provided links to the full text of 73.622 and 73.623 farther above.


Right now, WUSA in DC digitally broadcasts on channel 34. And you know what? So does WYBE in Philly. Those two contours, with their higher dBu limits or whatever they mean, come pretty close to touching, and they apparently coexist peacefully.


I'm well aware of several of these sorts of circumstances. I can't however say with any certianity at this point that some of them necessarily "apparently coexist peacefully". I have certianly heard reports of folks somewhat "in between", or at similar distances from such fairly nearby- co-channel stations who have issues, including with the use of highly directional antennas.

Here's just one in this area. Take a Look at WLEX-DT 39 Lexington, KY, and WKOI-DT 39 (COL Richmond, IN), the latter which broadcasts from Just North Of Cincinnati. Make sure to pay close attetion to their antenna patterns as well. And, as it stands right now, it appears both will stay there post analog shut off. Thankfully, that's not the case for the Current, Columbus+cincinnati co-channel digitals.

Higher dBu limits or "whatever they mean"? .... I think you are probably referring to the differences in required signal strength for lo-VHF/hi-VHF/UHF, concerning what FCC uses to define a stations service area. For DTV That is, 41dbu contour service area on UHF, 36Dbu on hi-VHF, 28dbu on Low VHF. You'll find more info on that in the links to some of the FCC DTV rules father above.


So why fight it if it's possible?


I'm not "fighting" anything.

And, I'd certianly like it if I could have new local stations with all sorts of quality HD(or SD programing for that matter) fill up every channel on my dial, and I'd like it as well if stations found a new interest and viability in OTA. And, I'd like to find a 7 figure check in my mailbox tomorrow as well ....

What I am doing however, is trying to make you a little more aware of some of the actual facts involved concerning some of the things you are "proposing" and/or speculating about, and believe it or not, I'm also trying to do it politely .... But it just doesn't seem to be working, so whatever is happening, I tried! Sorry I didn't do a better job of it ...


Maybe they can make that kind of a CP up from scratch, with a resolution or something?


Anything's possible I suppose, especially perhaps if it was some sort of service which could be easily seen by the commission to be of great beneifit for the "public good".

And who knows, Maybe someone will call tomorrow, and tell me I won a billion dollars ..... ;-)


Update/additions:

P.P.S. I won't bother asking more about AFD here, at least for a while, as there are other places in the forum to do that in greater detail. I suspect that there's more for me to know about it.


Oh almost forgot ...

You should be able to find some good info on AFD in recent posts in Programming area by AVSforum members "TVOD" and "Sneals2000" on AFD.

You might also find the ATSC white papers available from ATSC site of interest as well - Not only for AFD, but for all things related to ATSC(and in some cases MPEG). I've found several of those documents very useful, in regards to increasing my understanding of our Digital TV system, I have many of them here archived to DVD/CD(they are sometimes difficult to "dig up" and sort through to find the info I want however!)

Anyway, As the TVtechnology article in link I posted noted, it's described in the A/53 "guide to digital television standard" document, which among other ATSC documents are available for download here :

http://www.atsc.org/standards.html

But, you might also want to check out the info concerning candidate standard CS/TSG674 (and the PDF download for that candidate standard at below link) -- Note in the text description at this link it says "readers should be aware that there is ongoing coordinated standardization efforts between ATSC, CEA and SPTE in two area that effect this document : closed captions, and 2) image formatting (AFD and bar data). While neither of these efforts will change the syntax of the ATSC bitstream, they will affect the semantics. As a result, this Candidate Standard will be revised from time to time to reflect decisions reached on these topics by either SMPTE or CEA, since the ATSC bitstream supplies a delivery mechanism for content originating under SMPTE Standards and consumed under CEA Standards."

http://www.atsc.org/standards/candidate_standards.html

Note: The following was posted in Chicago thread by mikemikeb. I am responding to it here, because I don't think a response in Chicago thread from me on this issue would be appropriate. While It probably isn't necessarily an approrpiate subject for this thread either(and I apologize for my part in this to folks who aren't interested), Cincinnati is at least centrally located to the stations he's inquiring about, and we've already been discussing it, here.

I have a project for you all, should you choose to accept it, and I'm asking here because a) this forum has some of the best and brightest talent at AVSForum, and b) once I get the data I'm requesting, I'd like to figure out something that I don't know the answer to, yet, relating to L-R maps...... I'd like to ask for an inquiry on some stations.


You have a). Correct. What makes AVSforum great is its members.

As you may have noticed from the FCC rules+regs, Longely-Rice studies are one of the things stations+FCC use when working out their coverage area+interference protection issues.

I'm not sure what you are asking for in your "inquiry" --- I think you are asking for Lonegly-rice maps for those stations ? In that case, I'd think your best bet for the best info there is probably to contact the station engineers for the stations involved, although keep in mind they are not obliged to provide that info. You'll find contact info for WLIO's engineers on Dayton thread, AVSforum member and WISH engineer "TomWeber" sometimes posts on Indy thread, I don't know about WLJC. Update: Oh, you don't mention in Your chicago thread post the reason you're asking for that info, but I assume you might want to try to dig up some info on WBNA-DT 8 Louisville as well, which I mentioned in My last post.

WBNA/DT FCC TV Query info is here (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=WBNA&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9)

You may also be able to dig up coverage area/coverage area maps more detailed than those available at FCC query in some cases on FCC site via attachements to the applications stations submit to them.

IF you want to "try it" for yourself, such as using the SPLAT! software Sebanste mentions in his post in chicago thread. I think Doug Lung had an article in TVtechonlogy a couple years back about that software as well which you may find of some use. I've thought about trying it/playing around with it here, but I don't have Linux running, currently. Do keep in mind, some of the station facility parameters you may need to input for most accurate results may not be readily available from FCC site(precise info on beam tilt/etc) in some cases.

I can tell you former Clear Channel Radio Engineer, (and former poster here) Al Kenyon once posted some of those maps for a couple of stations in our area(In thread archives, not sure if the graphics are accessable) and he also graciously did a couple of longely rice maps for me with another "commerical" software package that does longely rice studies, as well as path studies for my specific location for a couple of stations(WCVN-DT + WCET-DT, the latter with the original 7KW ERP STA) -- They are very cool! I think I posted some info from those somewhere way back, but it may not have been this thread.

In 2009, they'll stay on their current DTV channels, and it looks like WLJC and WISH won't budge from their current altitude or power levels, nor their non-directional status, though I want that double-checked. At analog shut-off, WLIO's location, power level, and height will change from the current arrangement of 40° 44' 51" N, 84° 07' 54.5" W / 27.5 kW / 148 meters AAT to 40° 44' 54" N, 84° 07' 55" W / 30 kW / 165 meters AAT. I don't know if it will change its current directional pattern (current pattern available here -- scroll down), and if so, how.


Here's some additional help: At the time of analog shut-off: WLIO Antenna ID will change from 72830 to 36733. WISH-DT's Antenna ID is currently 41559, and WLJC-DT's Antenna ID is currently 64201. I can't figure out for sure what the future no. will be for either of those two, though I suspect neither will change from their current respective number.


I think you may be misinterpeting some of the info you are seeing. For instance, Both WLIO analog and digital transmit from the same tower. They had a 30KW ERP CP for the digital station, but recently changed that to 27.5KW ERP. You can find some info on that here(If I recall correctly, there's also some good contour maps/coverage info submitted to FCC by station in the exhibits attached to the app at following link).

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101120359&formid=301&fac_num=37503

I don't think we have any info yet concerning exactly what their facilities will be after analog shut off. In many cases, where stations are remaining on their current digital assignment, I'd think they'll probably generally remain quite similar to what the case is now, although, in cases where directional antenna patterns are used, we'll probably see some changes there, and we'll also probably see some power changes, and I'd think many stations may be moving antennas which are side mounted to their tower "to the top". Of course, those issues may involve new antennas as well.

As for the antenna ID's, those change whenever a station gets/changes to a new antenna.

Do keep in mind (there's info on Dayton thread posted about this) -- WLIO-DT was running with a low power STA, from a temporary antenna height until about a month ago. They increased power/installed the "new" antenna/etc. the last couple of months. WLIO's engineer runs a nice website with technical information here:

http://www.wlio.net/

He has a coverage map up of the DT, as well as some nice pictures of the new transmitter+new antenna/etc. here :

http://www.wlio.net/video/



Thanks in advance.


Your Welcome!

Good sleuthing, Nitewatchman. You're right that I didn't really care if you responded, and I have learned many things from your posts. Sorry that I didn't seem to take what you said and put into work in my responses, but I intended to do that.

I doubt that the FCC would allow a channel 31 DT in town after analog shut-off like they do now. However, maybe they would, as they're approving WHAG-DT in Hagerstown on 26 at full power for after analog shut-off. A lot of that signal's getting into WETA-DT 27's proposed 90kW contour (and current 75 kW contour)...

Thanks for the info on WBNA. That pattern is interesting, as the coverage doesn't protrude into the Cincinnati area as much as WHAS. Maybe a highly directional pattern, or a lower-power onmidirectional pattern, would work well for a WCCW 8.

Anyway, maybe buying WSTR from Sinclair may be the only way to get full-bandwidth WKRC-HD. However, it may be a money-losing deal, and the best price would occur if MyNetworkTV did go belly up and no network was there to take its place. Since MyNetworkTV is 720p, the CW subchannel would fit in pretty well there, if they wanted it to be SD-only. Or perhaps they'd put the CW in HD and MyNetTV in SD. Who would care? ;) :D

I'd like this station to be either a high-powered station, or perhaps a higher-power LP station like the CP for WOTH would entail. Since it's not totally possible on 8, then I won't suggest it. There has to be some station post-transition that will help with things. I'll look into it myself.

Note that the "fringe reception" that you mentioned probably applies to UHF's contour strength. The signal levels for VHF-HI's contours are weaker, so the chances of getting a signal in the area you describe is less than for UHF. I'm not saying it's impossible, though.

I'm not sure what you are asking for in your "inquiry" --- I think you are asking for Lonegly-rice maps for those stations ?
No, that's not my current step, but the second one, sort of. The original goal was to see if the directional field for WLIO would change, then to use L-R maps for both those three stations PLUS the proposed WCCW, to get a figure as to the most possible power that a CW 8 station would be able to transmit. Now that I know that a directional pattern is best, I'd have to know the directional pattern as well, if I'd want maximum possible reception in the northern and eastern areas of town. I suspect that pattern's difficult to find outside of a full-blown engineering study.

On a side note: I didn't ask why WXIX-DT wouldn't move back to channel 19, because I thought I could figure that out myself, and sure enough -- they can't. I might look into other UHF frequencies on which a CW channel might work.

It would be cool if there was a database for post-transition directional patterns. Maybe there isn't one, but if there was one...

Thanks for the links and your time.

Good sleuthing, Nitewatchman.
I doubt that the FCC would allow a channel 31 DT in town after analog shut-off like they do now.


AFAIK, As far as FCC is concerned, WKRC-DT could have elected to stay on 31. Every station with 2 in-core channel allocations had the option to choose either their current digital allocation or analog allocation in the Channel election procedure, and as I said before, stations with 2 in core channel assignments had full interference protection for their current digital allocation, but if they went back to the analog, they might have to protect other stations. I don't think the latter was much of an issue for WKRC for 12.


Note that the "fringe reception" that you mentioned probably applies to UHF's contour strength. The signal levels for VHF-HI's contours are weaker, so the chances of getting a signal in the area you describe is less than for UHF. I'm not saying it's impossible, though.


No. It's different for the same reasons it takes less power on VHF to cover the same area - This is why VHF power levels are lower - It's not a different issue. Same thing with analog.

From a reception standpoint(given "flat terrain" at least), they theoretically should be "equal", more or less. The signal contours are a rough estimation of ability of reception with equipment that meets FCC "planning" factors. Basically, that would be similar to a typical mid-size VHF/UHF directional combo antenna mounted 30feet above ground+with 100FT coax run. That doesn't take terrain into account such as the case with Longely-rice studies. The threshold required for "perfect" DTV reception is about 15~16Db SNR.


It would be cool if there was a database for post-transition directional patterns. Maybe there isn't one, but if there was one...


There will be, I'd think we'll see the post-transistion "new" CP's(such as for stations returning to their analog channel, or moving elsewhere) pop up at TV query relatively soon. Right now, they are working on finalizing the post-transistion DTV table of allotments. Although we'll see changes after analog shut off as well, as many stations will probably have some "room" to maximize their signals a bit.

Well, my CM3020 came crashing down last night... :(
Looks like the pole (CM1830 30' Telescoping Mast) bent and slammed into the siding of my house. It wasn't even extended all the way.
The pole was cemented at the bottom and had 2 clamps attached to the house and about 8" above the last clamp and gutters.
From the looks of it the only thing that I can salvage is the rotor.

Ehh... any suggestions on what to get as a replacement? (besides same stuff)
Any ideas on pro install?
How much would it run?
Who does it?

Thanks

Dimitriz,

Sorry to hear that. I also lost my telescoping mast to high winds back in Iowa, bent right above my last guyed wire support. Since you are placing this on the side of your house, I would suggest putting up a standard ground-up tower. I am sure you could put up a 20' tower and it would be much stronger than the mast.

Dimitriz,

Sorry to hear that. I also lost my telescoping mast to high winds back in Iowa, bent right above my last guyed wire support. Since you are placing this on the side of your house, I would suggest putting up a standard ground-up tower. I am sure you could put up a 20' tower and it would be much stronger than the mast.

Hi,
Any idea if there a local place that sells them?
I found one on the net (solidsignal) and it;s like $750 (American Tower 20" tilting).

Thanks

Any ideas on pro install?


TNT Pictures does OTA antenna installs in Cincinnati area. They may not need to use a tower or telescoping mast. Several folks on this thread have reported using them. Here's their website:

http://www.tntpicturecompany.com/



Any idea if there a local place that sells them?


On this long list of Cincy business' that start with "T", under the listing for TNT Picture company, it says their products and services include "Antenna and Antenna towers" :

http://www.a2zcity.com/Cincinnati_OH/index-33.php

R+L electronics(Mostly Ham gear) in Hamilton appears to carry Rohn Tower sections :

http://www.randl.com/cgi-local/cart/cart.cgi?cart=Search&groupnumber=(7000)

Disclaimer: If you're going to do it yourself, make sure you know what you're doing, this sort of thing can be quite a project to do properly, otherwise you may end up with a situation somewhat similar(or worse, including possibilites for injury or death/etc) to what you have now ....

Thanks Nitewatchman.

I sent TNT and e-mail.

Also, while asking people at work where I can buy a tower around here the maintenance guy suggested I get a 1.5" steel pipes and connect them together with a joint(?). He said that that would be much more reliable then aluminum pipes and not to mention cheaper.
Of course I'd have to paint the setup to prevent rust.
What do you think of that suggestion?

What do you think of that suggestion?

Only comment I would have is A neighbor here(1 story house) was using probably about 17~20' or so of fairly heavy gauge 3/4" or 1"(or so) diameter iron or steel pipe(there was a joint in there between 2 pieces of it) for an antenna mast via that method with a mid-sized VHF/UHF combo(looked like a RS VU90 or similiar), an "attachment" to a soffet(into a stud I hope), with the ground end of the pipe buried probably 2~4 feet or so into the ground. Looking at old pictures, it appears to have been there about 30 years, and only came down recently because the new owner got rid of the antennas.

I installed a somewhat similar arrangement at a friends cabin(1 story) once, but with 2 10', 3/4" antenna mast secions, such as the sort they have(or had) at Lowe's. I haven't visited in a while, but was "sturdy" and it seemed to hold up fine to the weather/etc.

I dunno how well something that would neccessarily work in your specific circumstances for 30', and a rotor, though.

Anybody lose cable or satellite service last night? My cable, TWC, went out about 8pm. Today I've talked to others who had their cable go out as well and these folks do not live in the same part of town. So I think TW had a big problem. I'm one of the lucky ones. Mine was back up this morning but others are still out.

I'm wondering if despite the rhetoric, satellite folks weathered the ice and snow better than the cable folks. If so, it kind of shoots the heck out of the cable commercials showing their customers enjoying TV shows while their satellite neighbor is on top of the roof in a pouring rain.

I had no troubles with my cable internet, satellite, or power (excluding a small blip here or there) last night. I consider myself VERY fortunate.

terry - you got very lucky.. many in deer park, kenwood and indian hill lost and are still without power.. at least your subdivision streets are clear!!! mine hasnt seen a damn thing yet!!

jim

My sat. was working just fine throughout. :)
But this early morning I found out why OTA reception was really jerky, lol.

I'm in Mason and had no issues w/TWC or power...also feel very lucky.

The damn D* dish is fz solid. The power went out and the receiver would not work for OTA because it could not find the satellites. I had to remove the antenna from the HD TIVO to get any tv at all.

Sounds like it may be this way for a while.

WCVN-DT is back on at 60 % power due to ice buildup.

I do think those cable commercials about the "rain fade" with sat are funny. With E*(dish 500, DPTwin LNB about 35' max coax run to each receiver), I've seen the signals go down during a lot of rain, but it's been extremely rare for me to get a "dropout" of sat reception.

When it has happened, it involved VERY heavy percipitation, and the period(s) where there was no or a "broken up" picture was very, very brief. Where I installed the dish, I can also brush off snow/etc. easily -- and, it did collect some snow last week which I brushed off, although the snow on it didn't actually lower signal quite enough to cause any reception problem. Thought it was a good idea though, to help keep it from freezing up if the snow melted in the sun/etc.

Cable, OTOH, I think has a huge task on their hand just maintaining their system of distribution during "good" weather, and of course, add in wind+ice one the trees, and their lines(or anything else, fiber/etc) are going to go down just like the powerlines do. Of course, for TV during a power outage, you'd really need a portable, battery powered TV and OTA anyway.

Anyway, lucky up here Well north of Middletown -- everything this time around was Frozen percipitation -- Snow or Sleet, the latter which just "bounced off" instead of sticking to trees, powerlines/sat dishes or antennas. Still heavy stuff to shovel, however.

So, no problems Sat or OTA .... there are no cable lines to knock down at my location, therefore I wouldn't have a problem with it, anyway<g> - There is fiber in the air, but AFAIK, that's only used currently by the local Telco's WAY too expensive(IMO) DSL service .... The copper for "regular" phone service are underground.

In previous years with Heavy Ice accumulations on the power lines/trees and antennas and such, have been here lucky as well. Have seen the VHF elements on the antennas "droop" quite a bit, but they've allways straightened back up after the ice melted.

Heavy Ice on the trees, temps well below feezing and a lot of wind however -- I don't know if I can ever recall running into that situation --- It does help I'm protected from the wind by being down in a small valley. That situation would however have me more concerned about trees and other issues not related to TV reception ...

WCVN-DT is back on at 60 % power due to ice buildup.

Thanks, William. I noticed the DT was down last night, but analog was fine.

Just checked, at 4pm no problems receiving WCVN-DT up here currently from 39 Miles.

Noticing a AGC "reading" of 26% on Sony HDTV's receiver, which does indicate a weaker signal than the usual reading of around 20% for WCVN-DT. I've never seen it higher than 44% or so, 44% being where no (apparently) signal is present. What is nice about that AGC reading is that it is not affected by multipath, so I can tell a signal is present with it even with "way off target" antenna aimings that result in a "0" reading on 'signal bar' types of "signal meters".

SNR reading shows 27Db, I can't say if that's anywhere near being accurate or not, but If I recall correctly it's in range for normal readings from WCVN-DT.

The "signal quality"(or whatever you want to call it) meter, which is labeled incorrectly right on the screen as a "signal strength" meter is reading about 92%, which is pretty much as usual ...

Thanks, William. I noticed that WCVN-DT was down last night, but analog was fine.

I noticed some "interesting" things yesterday when WCVN-DT was off the air. I checked and saw that WCVN analog (ch 54) was fine but when I checked Insight cable (WCVN is on their channel 2) the channel was off the air. I then checked DISH Network (ch. 8360 or ch. 54) and they were displaying color bars with WCVN's call letters. Latter, when WCVN-DT came back on the air I checked Insight and DISH Network and it was back on both venders. Both DISH Network and Insight are using the digital feed of WCVN instead of the analog feed that they were using.

yep.

Insight is also properly passing the closed captioning information on their analog feed of WCVN. That sort of suprises me since (I think) that they have to install some additional equipment in order to extract that data from the digital feed. Maybe William or some other knowledgable engineer can give us some information on what it takes to do that. I know on an analog channel the closed captioning is in the VBI data and on a digital signal it is part of the PSIP data but I don't know how is done when a cable systems takes the digital feed and converts it to analog. To some of us this is important because of the TVGOS data. I know that WCVN doesn't provide it but WCET does and I'm wondering if we will still get it (on cable) when the cable systems start picking up ONLY the digital feed of WCET (and converting it to analog).

Bill R,

Line 21 608 (analog) captions are still present in the video signal.

For instance, I can send 480i out from my Zenith HDV420 DTV receiver(which in this case on it's own, only supports EIA-708 "digital" captions) to a analog TV via composite or s-video connections, and the CC decoder(for analog captions only) in the TV works for WCVN-DT SD services, or for that matter, even for say, WXIX 19 analog signal upconverted on WXIX-DT.

I live in Fairfield Township... with all the snow and LOTS of ice, I've had no power, phone or satellite (E*) problems, knock on wood. Dish collected a decent amount of snow last week, and when I looked at it last night, it is covered in large amounts of ice. Plenty of signal strength, even on the weaker 129 satellite. Since I got E* installed in November, I've not had a single loss of signal.

The only thing I noticed last night was VERY washed out colors on WLWT (SD) through E*. Picking up WLWT-DT OTA was perfectly fine, but the colors were horrible on WLWT SD. I haven't checked it today yet (at work), but was wondering if anyone had the same issues? I'm guessing it's an E* OTA receiption issue, but not sure.

I do think those cable commercials about the "rain fade" with sat are funny. With E*(dish 500, DPTwin LNB about 35' max coax run to each receiver), I've seen the signals go down during a lot of rain, but it's been extremely rare for me to get a "dropout" of sat reception.

I have a friend who has issues with her satellite reception. If anyone in the room has a cell phone and it rings, the screen goes blank and gives a "searching for signal" message. It's quite funny as you can predict that someone's phone will ring by the blank screen, as the picture dies about 3-4 seconds before the phone rings. Of course they make that person leave the room (get as far from the TV as possible) if they decide to take the call, and then the picture returns.

The only thing I noticed last night was VERY washed out colors on WLWT (SD) through E*. Picking up WLWT-DT OTA was perfectly fine, but the colors were horrible on WLWT SD. I haven't checked it today yet (at work), but was wondering if anyone had the same issues? I'm guessing it's an E* OTA receiption issue, but not sure.

TSC,

I am seeing the same problem on WLWT from DISH Network. I usually don't watch the SD feed but one of my neigbors that has DISH called me and asked if my channel 5 looked bad. I told her it did and I sent an e-mail to the DISH uplink techs about the WLWT problem. It usually takes them a few days to get the problem fixed and usually the problem is at the Cincinnati POP (Point of Presence where they pick up the local channels). They had the same problem on WCPO recently but got the problem resolved fairly quickly. If it is not fixed by tomorrow afternoon I'll send them another e-mail.

I have a friend who has issues with her satellite reception. If anyone in the room has a cell phone and it rings, the screen goes blank and gives a "searching for signal" message. It's quite funny as you can predict that someone's phone will ring by the blank screen, as the picture dies about 3-4 seconds before the phone rings. Of course they make that person leave the room (get as far from the TV as possible) if they decide to take the call, and then the picture returns.

That is funny. Although she may not get it if she "switched" to cable - technically speaking, That is not probably not a "satellite reception specific" issue, however, as that sort of thing can happen with cable or OTA as well, not to mention anything that produces, or uses any sort of RF. Almost anything "electronic" produces some amount of RF signal which, depending upon the frequencies involved can potentially cause interference, including for cable ....

I wonder if the "searching for signal" message is coming from the TV(such as no video signal on that input) or the satellite receiver?

Either way, Could be Interference involving an IF(intermeidate frequency) stage used in the cell phone(s), TV or sat receiver, probably in addition to poor RF shielding for the circuits involved. Unfortunetly, these issues are not allways "well coordinated" among different products by consumer equipment manufacturers.

Or/and I suppose it may be possible it could be a "seperate" RFI/RF shielding issue - such as F-connector on back of sat receiver not tightened up, poor RF shielding in Sat receiver/etc .. I can't recall the exact range of frequencies at present used by cell phones or Sat receivers after the DBS signals have been "downconverted" by the LNB (The DBS bands themselves are up above 10GHZ as I recall, where the short wavelenths/power/dish size/etc. involved is why "rain fade" can be a problem) ....

In any case, I think probably the biggest problem with DBS reception involves the fact(again those very short wavelengths have something to do with that) the dish has to be placed such that you *have* to have a clear line of sight to the birds. That's not allways possible such as in some cases when terrain, and trees can be an issue .... At least in some cases not without a lot of chainsaw work+permission from neighbors to cut down trees ....

I wonder if the "searching for signal" message is coming from the TV(such as no video signal on that input) or the satellite receiver?

It comes from the satellite receiver. I think it's funny more than anything else. They're really not that concerned about fixing the issue though since they know what causes it... oh well.

It comes from the satellite receiver. I think it's funny more than anything else. They're really not that concerned about fixing the issue though since they know what causes it... oh well.

I actually sort of wish I HAD that problem(well sort of) if it would get the cell phone conversations out of the TV room while I'm trying to listen to the TV :)

I have a friend who has issues with her satellite reception. If anyone in the room has a cell phone and it rings, the screen goes blank and gives a "searching for signal" message. It's quite funny as you can predict that someone's phone will ring by the blank screen, as the picture dies about 3-4 seconds before the phone rings. Of course they make that person leave the room (get as far from the TV as possible) if they decide to take the call, and then the picture returns.

I have seen that problem on three different satellite setups. In ALL cases the problem was that the installer did not properly ground the system. There should be a switch or a ground block (outside) that has a wire running to the home's common ground (NOT a separate ground rod).

In ALL cases the problem was that the installer did not properly ground the system.


Interesting. You learn something new everyday. Why would that be, I wonder ?

There should be a switch or a ground block (outside) that has a wire running to the home's common ground (NOT a separate ground rod).

Yes -- However, Just to add, Seperate(or in better words perhaps "multiple") ground rod(s) can be used - In some cases it's probably even a good idea, BUT importantly, per NEC it(they) should be properly bonded to the common ground, which should probably be the main A/C service ground.

The reasons for that are to prevent "ground loops", and because the difference in potential can be 1,000's of volts between one spot of ground or another, which can obviously be a problem regarding preventing possible damage to equipment connected to both the A/C service ground via a 3 prong plug into a A/C outlet and a seperate ground rod, especially if, say, a nearby lightning strike is involved. Cinergy used to have a nice web page explaining this in detail, I don't know if that's available at a Duke Energy website these days.

Per NEC properly grounding pretty much All "leads" coming into a residence is required. Outer conductor of Coax, and yes, even cable/phone/etc - Lightning is just as likely to get in via cable or phone(even underground, trust me on that one) as it is from an antenna. I don't think any grounding of rotor control cable is required, as, there probably isn't a good way to do that anyway, in most cases. The ground block the coax run(s) should be as near to where the coax enters the residence as is practical. Antenna+sat dish masts(or tower legs) should be properly grounded+bonded to Main utility service ground as well.

There are more 'details' involved concerning what sort of ground wire/etc. is to be used per NEC in any given case(Cold water pipe can even be used as part of a ground system in some circumstances). For example, any seperate ground rods should be properly bonded to the common ground with #4 or heavier gauge solid copper. Here, I have about 75 feet of it, buried, and running from my ground rods on back side of house where the antennas/tower legs/sat dish/phone line drop is, running around the house to the main A/C service ground. It wouldn't hurt and may be "better" if I had a ground rod bonded to the #4 copper going around the house for every 10 feet or so of the run of #4 copper, but I haven't went quite that far .....

For me, While it would probably be better from a "grounding" perspective to have the antennas/sat dish on the other (east) side of the house+ bonded "directly" to the Main A/C service ground, or a more direct run to the main A/C service ground, that would not really not work for various reasons such as the LOS to the satellites would be blocked, and don't want the tower/antennas right in(or anywhere near) the utility lines either, for safety reasons ....

Local codes can vary from NEC, probably in some cases in a "more stringent" manner.

Unfortunetly, as Bill's experience seems to indicate, it seems in some or many cases, many so-called "professional" cable or Sat installers don't seem to allways follow proper grounding procedures .... Not that its unlikely there aren't a lot of DIY antenna or sat setups that are improperly grounded out there as well ... Of course, sometimes there are "less than optimal" situations when it is difficult to follow NEC grounding procedures "to the letter", in such cases one can only do the best they can ....

I actually sort of wish I HAD that problem(well sort of) if it would get the cell phone conversations out of the TV room while I'm trying to listen to the TV :)


I have the same problem with OTA reception. Every time the cell phone is transmiiting the signal drops out.

I just had DirecTV installed, with the new HD DVR, and I have the Cincinnati local HD channels. NBC looks pretty decent, I haven't really checked ABC, but the CBS HD channel is absolutely horrendous. It's almost like the data isn't being sent fast enough or something, it looks pretty much as bad as standard definition, and unfortunately for me CBS is the main channel that I watch. I did have HD through Time Warner, and while it wasn't the best picture, it was still very good.

Any ideas what could be wrong? I've tried with component cables, as well as HDMI...

Looks like it is "Macro-blocking" really bad or something...

I just had DirecTV installed, with the new HD DVR, and I have the Cincinnati local HD channels. NBC looks pretty decent, I haven't really checked ABC, but the CBS HD channel is absolutely horrendous.

Any ideas what could be wrong? I've tried with component cables, as well as HDMI...

It is most likely NOT a problem on your end. DirecTV is over compressing the HD locals so they can fit them (and others) all on the same spot beam. Your best bet, if you can, is to get the HD locals via the OTA tuner in your DirecTV receiver. And DO complain to DirecTV. If enough people do maybe they will find some way to improve them.

It is most likely NOT a problem on your end. DirecTV is over compressing the HD locals so they can fit them (and others) all on the same spot beam. Your best bet, if you can, is to get the HD locals via the OTA tuner in your DirecTV receiver. And DO complain to DirecTV. If enough people do maybe they will find some way to improve them.

D* is using MPEG4 compression for their local stations and some markets have really bad MPEG4 problems, but Cincinnati hasn't been one of them. I would agree, if OTA provides a noticeable improvement that he should use it, but I would disagree that this is a D* problem as I haven't noticed it. Last week there were some MPEG4 issues with the "How I Met Your Mother" broadcast, but other than It's been fine.

I just had DirecTV installed, with the new HD DVR, and I have the Cincinnati local HD channels. NBC looks pretty decent, I haven't really checked ABC, but the CBS HD channel is absolutely horrendous. It's almost like the data isn't being sent fast enough or something, it looks pretty much as bad as standard definition, and unfortunately for me CBS is the main channel that I watch. I did have HD through Time Warner, and while it wasn't the best picture, it was still very good.

Any ideas what could be wrong? I've tried with component cables, as well as HDMI...

Unless you were watching the Young and the Restless you weren't watching HD programming this afternoon. Did you experience these same problems this evening with prime time programming?