I am sure many of you will be happy to hear that WKRC-DTV bandwidth will be increased from 15mb to 17mb or higher.

WebHopper is being discontinued effective May 31st at 23:59.

More info can be found here.


http://www.web-hopper.com/residential/home.html

So now we will truly find out if WebHopper and the bandwidth it was taking is/was to blame for poor PQ on the WKRC-DTV.

If you have any questions about this let me know and I will answer them as soon as I am able.

I didn't expect CC to discontinue WH so soon. I hope that with the increased bandwidth, WKRC will be able to broadcast in DD 5.1. I'm sure the video will improve unless they have plans to add a few sub channels i.e WCET-DT.

DD5.1 requires extra gear that is not currently installed at WKRC at this time. They are looking into the the DD5.1 area and may have something near the end of the year.

As for the use of the bandwidth that will become available that is still being decided.

Just tell us who we need to contact to sway it the full-bandwidth for HD way. <g>.

Doc

All..

Am I the only one who loses audio on WXIX-DT for large chunks of time? I timeshift Tru Calling and lost sound from the second to third segments, Thursday night.

Doc

Doc,

I'll try to pay more attention, but I haven't noticed any audio problems from WXIX-DT recently. I didn't get to catch all of it, but I saw bits and pieces(throughout) of WS "Tru Calling" on WXIX-DT last night and didn't notice any audio problems. I did notice when channel surfing on wed. night that they were in weirdscreen mode throughout Fox prime.

On another note, Just noticed WSTR-DT isn't currently remapping to 64-1 here, it's showing up as 33-2.

33-1 here.

33-2 on my Zenith C34W37 HDTV. Maybe they are getting ready to show the WB in true HD. Then again its Sinclair, so I doubt it.




Regarding WXIX, I notice a dropout in audio when they switch from the network to a local spot. It lasts only for a second or two. I haven't noticed any audio problems on the network feed though.

Microbob..

I get the drop going to and from local breaks, too. But about once a week, it stays gone until the next break. I'll have to start logging times, I guess...

Doc

Sinclair Stations WKEF-DT Dayton(NBC currently) and WSYX-DT Columbus(ABC) do pass HD -- WTTE-DT (operated by Sinclair under LMA) Columbus does Fox widescreen, but WRGT-DT(operated by Sinclair under LMA) Fox dayton doesn't yet do Fox WS, even though they are shown as "HD-ready" on Sinclair website.

So, perhaps I'm a little more optimistic, but still .... basically ---- I'll believe it when I see it ... There is some recent, hopefully encouraging news at following links however :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3603830#post3603830

And here:

http://digitaltelevision.com/articles/article_602.shtml

Hopefully, Mister DTV will soon post detailed info on the HD upgrades planned for their stations, and hopefully WSTR will be included on the list ....

update 3:55pm: Went out to do some yard work -- I had left receiver tuned to WSTR-DT, when I came back, it was remapped to 64-1 as usual ...

Any word yet if WKRC is planning on creating a sub channel? Looks live NBC national has decided to create a weather sub channel, hopefully WLWT will not carry this. Sinclair is rolling out more WB stations that are HD, Minneapolis looks like the start of conversion, with 5 others coming on soon. WSTR should get their act together and upgrade. WXIX will be very interesting this fall with all the planned NFL games in HD, lets hope that this doesn't get delayed.

Well, since Hearst-Argyle looks to be playing a part in the NBC deal, I'd guess WLWT-DT(owned by Hearst) will probably carry the Weather+alert channel. See here:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/variety/20040414/va_mi/nbc_1

I'm thinking of moving from DirecTV to Insight's HD DVR service in Northern KY. I really want to be able to have a DVR and especially HD DVR. I've done a search on the thread but haven't been able to find users. Can anyone who has Insight Digital HD DVR chime in an tell me what the feature pros and cons are? I would also like to find out the model number of their latest equipment so I can look up specs. One thing in particular, as a backup for when cable is down (or to view non-Insight HD channels), will the equipment allow me to patch in my rooftop OTA feed for OTA HD or OTA analog? Also, will it utilize my Dolby 5.1 and optical inputs from my surrouind sound? Thanks!

Have a buddy who has it and loves it. No, you can't patch in an antenna since the channel assignments are different for analog and the frequencies and modulation scheme is different for digital. He says the only cons are: Low amount of HD recording time available (something like 8 hours) and no Fox Digital (they're not available on the Insight digital tier, although they may be come fall).

For those times the cable is out - and for Fox (Dayton, too, if you have a good antenna), I might recommend an OTA-only tuner, such as the Samsung T-151.

Doc

Dr. Don

Thanks! I have an OTA Tuner built into my DirecTV Hughes e-86. I guess I could leave that set up just for the OTA stuff. I was hoping to be able to remove a componenet from the rack, though, which is necessary to make room for the cable box. :( I guess I'll remove the VCR.

I've been doing some research on FCC rules concerning Class A+LP stations, as well as looking at WBQC-CA's/WOTH-LP's current operating permits/CP's etc.

WOTH-LP 38(analog - Independent - Home shopping/Beverly Hilllbillies/etc) has had their STA for channel 38 renewed recently. STA's are granted for 6 month time periods. WOTH-LP currently also has a CP(construction permit) to move to channel 25 and use WBQC's current facilities.

WBQC-CA 25(analog - UPN) CP For Channel 38 expires in Dec 2004. They could of course ask for a extension past that date I suppose.

In the recent NPRM(notice of proposed rulemakeing) adopted late last summer by FCC Concerning DTV and Low Power(LP) Stations --- The way it currently stands, LPTV+class A stations don't have a 2nd channel assignment for DTV, and LP stations can't convert to digital on their analog assignment -- However, in the LP NPRM(among other things) FCC is proposing LP stations be allowed to convert to digital on their current analog assignment.

However --- From what I can tell from present rules, Class A stations CAN evidently currently convert to digital on their analog assignment(WBQC is Class A, and although they are currently on 25, their current "class A" analog assignment would be channel 38), and that has been the rule since early 2000 - To convert to digital, they would need to file with FCC for a minor change in facilites, which would need to be aprroved by FCC.

Follows is a footnote from the recent LP NPRM from FCC, the entire document can be found under the 10/3/03 date at the following site: http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/documents.html

Footnote #154 : Class A stations may convert their existing analog channels for digital operations at any time, thus becoming digital Class A TV stations (Class A Report and Order, 92). Class A TV facilities changes, other than channels changes, are considered to be "minor" changes, provided the protected signal contour resulting from the changed facilities would overlap some portion of the protected contour based on the Class A station's authorized facilities (Class A Report and Order, 110). The Class A Report and Order did not explicitly characterize an on-channel digital conversion of an analog Class A station authorization as a minor change. We here clarify that Class A station licensees and permittees may seek an on-channel digital conversion by filing an application for a minor facilities change pursuant to the definition and application processing criteria given in Sections 73.3572 at paragraphs (a) and (f). An analog-to-digital converted digital Class A station would have the same interference protection priorities as an analog Class A station.

:end quote

Follows is relevant section (paragraph 92) from the "Class A Report in order"(issued in 2000) which is referenced above -- The entire document (and other Class A television service rules/documents) is available under the 4/4/2000 date) at the following site : http://www.fcc.gov/mb/policy/classa.html

92. Decision. As an initial matter, we note that Class A stations may convert their existing channel to digital broadcasting at any time.

:end quote

-----------------------------------------
Its probably there in the rules and I'm not looking in the right place, but one thing I couldn't find in the rules was any info concerning what the DTV ERP power limits would be for any Class A stations which might apply to switch to digital on their current analog assignment.

---------------------------

So, anyone have any news concerning the WBQC move to 38 and/or WOTH-LP's move to 25, and if we'll get to see UPN HD(Enterprise+some UPN movies are currently sent by UPN in HD+by some UPN digital affiliates as well) in Cincinnati anytime soon?

Notice that 48-1+PBS HD Channel is missing from WCET-DT Tonight(48-4+5 are there, but "blank" as placeholders)

PBS HD is fine for "Nova" from KET4 via WCVN-DT, and From WPTD-DT ... It's nice to have "Backup" :-)

48-1 was missing last night also. 54-4 is working great tonight.

Hello
I have Insight's DVR. The model is Motorola 6208.

Pros:
Currently one of the cheapest ways to record HD for timeshifting etc.
Firewire: Allows you to store to a DVHS or since 5c encryption is not turned on yet, allows you to connect to a PC and record. But a bit tricky.
Full Bandwidth of the HD Stream. (verified by coping to PC, HDNET comes across at 45mps, locals from 15-18megs, show, HBO 14.5 megs)

Cons
The Guide: Made by TV Guide if your coming from Direct TV or a Tivo, you will probably hate it, I didn't have either, so it wasn't that much of an adjustment to me.
Small drive: 80 gigs, (but not a problem if you have DVHS + Firewire)
If the unit reboots, it takes anywhere from 10-15 minutes to get guide data back. (if you are archiving to DVHS, this will happen)
If your not connected to the cable, you can't play your stored recordings. (but usually not an issue)



Yes, it is cable, but I have been living in Taylor Mill, KY for about 5 years now and can count on 1 hand how many times my cable has gone out.

Dave

Originally posted by ItzMe
I'm thinking of moving from DirecTV to Insight's HD DVR service in Northern KY. I really want to be able to have a DVR and especially HD DVR. I've done a search on the thread but haven't been able to find users. Can anyone who has Insight Digital HD DVR chime in an tell me what the feature pros and cons are? I would also like to find out the model number of their latest equipment so I can look up specs. One thing in particular, as a backup for when cable is down (or to view non-Insight HD channels), will the equipment allow me to patch in my rooftop OTA feed for OTA HD or OTA analog? Also, will it utilize my Dolby 5.1 and optical inputs from my surrouind sound? Thanks!

hugenbdd, thanks for all the good info! It'll probably be another month or so before I make the switch over to Insight DVR. When I do, I hope I can get you to elaborate on the archiving features. One question that comes to mind now is if I can take advantage of my home 802.11g wireless network to archive video to a computer's HD, like I hear you can do with Replay TV. I see that it has ethernet. Do you keep a computer next to the reciever? Oh lastly, can you confirm that this is the specific model Insight is using: http://broadband.motorola.com/dvr/dct6208.asp

Hugenbdd..

My pal tells me you can't watch one HD show and record another at the same time, either. Something you supposedly CAN do with the DirecTV HD PVR.

Doc

DrDon,

You seem to be unfortunately correct :( I C/P this from the manual pdf at the site I posted above. It seems that, unlike many other DVRs, there is only one tuner on this one. The ideal model would have 2 tuners and a larger HD.

Q. Can I watch a program while I’m recording?
A. You can watch a previously recorded program when you are recording a live program. If you
are recording a live show, changing channels will stop the recording. You will see a screen
asking you to confirm you want to change the channel and stop the recording.

Hi Doc--

My HD Tivo showed up today and I'll be putting it in service later tonight. The HD Tivo has four tuners (two sat and two OTA) allowing you to record two shows simultaneously while watching a previously recorded show. It can record up to 200 hours of SD tv and 30 hours HD. I'll give you the bug report after a few days.

Jack

Jack..

Thanks!! Looking forward to your report.

I live in Springboro and wish to combine two antennas so I can receive both Cincinnati and Dayton stations. I have tried to use a combiner but the signals become weak and I can't receive any channels. I guess both antennas interfere with each other trying to tune in the same channel. Any ideas would be appreciated.

Scott

Scott --

What are the make/model of antennas(or preamp/etc) you are using and, if you use just one of them by itself, if you aim it at Dayton do you get good results, and if you aim it at Cincinnati do you get good results?

You're correct, if you try to combine 2 antennas(other than combining seperate VHF/UHF antennas with a appripriate VHF/UHF joiner), aimed in different directions onto same feedline they will likely "interfere" with each other .... The signals shouldn't necessarily become weak really, but The antennas will be out of phase+increase multipath problems(unless you get really really lucky).

Other than using a single antenna+rotor, the most convienient solution would probably be to use seperate feedlines on each antenna, and use a A/B switch installed just before your receiver(or other equipment) to switch between the two. I do that here for Cincinnati/Dayton stations, and it works great! - I do also have a rotor on one antenna, but I don't need it For the Dayton/Cincinnati Digital stations(I'm between Middletown and Germantown, BTW)

One heading should work for you for all the cincinnati Stations+one heading should work for all the Dayton stations. WKOI-DT(TBN Religious - No HD) is the only one that should need a different heading -- Its tower is near Oxford, Ohio+due to their current Low power+directional antenna pattern, it would be very difficult to pick up from Springboro anyhow.

A rotor is of course probably going to be a more expensive solution, and you'd have to run the rotor cable(just as you'd have to run the second feedline for seperate Cincy/Dayton antennas).

Keep in mind -- ABC cincinnati digital is on VHF(WCPO-DT 10 - remap to 9.x) - So you'll probably want a antenna with VHF reception capability to receive them .... The rest of the Dayton/Cincinnati digital stations currently broadcast on UHF. You're probably not going to need much antenna for the Dayton stations, as you're only a few miles from the Dayton towers.

Hope this helps,

Hi Doc and everyone else.

I think I may be able to lay claim to being the first user of the new Directv HD-Tivo. I received it yesterday and fired it up last night. While it's too early to call this a flawless product, my first impression is very good. It basically behaves exactly as a normal DirecTivo, with the same interface, function and so far reliability, with the exception that it records in HD. There's a couple of extra functions--the ability to do a linear stretch on non-HD signals and the ability to change output mode using the remote (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i). If you have any specific questions, let me know and I'll do my best to answer them.

News of note for those of you who can pick up Dayton as well as Cincinnati:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3714548#post3714548

Thanks, kvp for the info.

Jack:

Do you have audio issues with HDNet as reported in the TiVo community?

Doc

jkeane, I have a few questions for you. I've been weighing the pros and cons (including cost) of Insight's HD DVR against DirecTV. I'd be curious to know where you bought your DirecTV system from and how much it cost. Can you get DirecTV to pay for the unit or the install? I ask because I would might need another multi-switch to have enough sat feeds. Lastly, can you tell what the real storage capacity is with HD and non HD?

Doc--

I'll check out the audio on HDNet tonight....I haven't had any problems with DD5.1 on any of the other channels.

ItzMe--

I've been a Directv customer since 1996. Last year, I upgraded to their HD service, which required a new 3 LNB dish. They sold me a Samsung TS-160 HD receiver and the new dish for $299 including installation and a new cascading multi switch. I think they are currently promoting a $99 package that's essentially the same thing. They also have a $99 deal for an SD Directivo.

I bought the HDTivo from Value Electronics www.********************* I pre-ordered the unit in January and at that time, they were offering the unit for $899 if you paid a $100 deposit. Where available, the HDTivo's are running $999 and they will include the new dish, multi-switch and installation if you need it. My understanding is that demand is outstripping supply at the moment. Supposedly, these will be sold for $600 starting in June or July. There are rumors about a $250 credit when you activate the HDTivo, but I wasn't a good enough negotiator to get that, however they did knock $15/month off my invoice for six months. If you call Directv, you should try to get past the first level of CSR to get good service and any good deals they have out there--their first line of reps is bad news.

The capacity is 200 hours SD and 30 hours HD. I was away for part of the weekend, so I didn't spend alot of time playing with it, but so far I have not found any serious flaws.

Thanksm Jack, for Good info

Jack,
I too have been a long time D* customer & have had the HD package for many moons, so how did you happen to get $15/mo off? I thought that deals are for new subscribers only(pet peeve) anyway...is it that you "committed" for another year or something?...BTW, I'm also waiting for my pre-ordered HDTivo to arrive any day now. But again, I'm already subscribing to the HD programming, so to just replace a box-out doesn't appear to be a strong negotiating position for discounts - is that what you did? Thanks...Chris
PS : did you have audio cut-out during the ESPN-HD Braves/Marlins game last nite?

Hi Chris--

There's been quite a lot of chatter in the Tivo Community forum regarding D*'s giving various amounts of credit to keep your business. I emailed them off the webpage and explained I had just dropped a chunk of change on the HDTivo and wanted some help to offset the cost and I referenced the fact that VOOM has been advertising a no upfront cost system. They called me back two days later and explained that they didn't have any formal program for issuing credits against the HDTivo but since I was a good, longstanding customer and all around swell guy, they offered me $10 off a month against HBO & Showtime. I asked if he could give a little more and they knocked off another $5 for six months. I did not add any programming and they did not ask for a commitment, but when I added the HDTivo, it comes standard with the year commitment. From what I hear, it's a crapshoot and it really depends on the individual CSR. I think some people at D* may realize that early adopters tend to prosilitize (SP?) more than the average person and others follow our lead, so it's smart for them to throw a bone in our direction every once in awhile.

I can't speak to the baseball game--I was watching the Sopranos and Deadwood with no audio problems.

Jack-Thanks for the info. Got a specific website address or email that you sent your discount/credit request to? Perhaps, I'll give it a shot; even though I'm sure I'm not as "swell" a guy as you :-) ...especially since, yes, us D*ers are paying a premium compared to Dish, VOOM, etc. & even NEW D* subscribers.

Anybody, got a good (low cost) local source for a Terk 5x8way Multiswich? I need it for the new quad-tuner HDTivo box? (I'll have 5 D* tuners now, therefore rendering my 4way useless). I'd like to make BestBuy match the price of that local source as I've got a gift-credit@BB I could use. BUT NOW they want $150 when the eBay price is less than half that...so it's hard to justify paying the FULL retail even with the credit.

Two other quick items then, I'll shut-up : Has anyone confirmed that the ABC affiliate(9-1 WCPO?) is actually outputting in DD 5.1 now? (I heard a rumor) &
2) I saw that the NBA playoffs are in HD (on ESPN-HD & PPV-HD) but also read that TNT is also "offering" games in HD seen here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=390342
--is TNT-HD offered ANYWHERE locally? (D*, TWC, VOOM?) Turner's channels (TNT & TBS) would obviously be a SUPER-GREAT HD addition...out

Chris--

I used the "contact us" page at Directv's website www.directv.com If you haven't already registered with them, you'll need your account number. Also, you'll want to check out this forum:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=36

There's lots of info on the HDTivo as well as a thread that deals specifically with the D* credit.

I believe Channel 9 will be doing 5.1 when they move to their new facility on Liberty later this year.

I noticed WKRC-DT ran (at least part of) the PGA HD coverage this afternoon(Rained out yesterday), even though it wasn't on the analog --- Good deal! (WHIO-DT didn't have the HD golf today BTW).

ItzMe
Archiving: I use a JVC 30k DVHS with a fire-wire link to the JVC. Even though the 6208 has a network Jack, it is not enabled. And I think the jack is to be more for a "cable modem" than to allow the box to be "networked". (Check out the Moxi thread under the records forum, that is probably what you ultimately want, but it's not here yet.) And, Since 5c (encryption type on fire-wire) is not turned on for Insight, I can also connect a 6pin to 6 pin fire-wire cable between the 6208 and my PC. There are some special drivers that need to be installed and a program called CapDVHS. (read thread entitle How to record to WindwosXP without Firebus) However, once they turn 5c on, I don't think I will be able to archive to my pc.

If you want to go the TiVo route, there are two major issues with this hardware. Not in Bugs but in basic design.
1.) You can't archive HD, no Fire-wire ports to archive to DVHS and so far, no way to "upgrade" the drive. (but I'm sure people are already working on this)
2.)Bandwidth. Cable currently sends the whole bandwidth of the HD channel. They do not "remux" the channel. HDNet(s) come across at 45m. With Sat. your lucky to get 16megs tops as they have to split 30meg bandwidth across 2 HD channels. So in effect with Sat. the larger screen size you go, the worse the HD picture looks, and the more "macro" blocks you get. Something to compare Sat. HD Signal to is the local CBS, they broadcast at 15m right now

hi all.. I am just getting ready for my new hd rptv (two weeks away!) anyway - I am looking at options for locals and an ota seems to be the best way - I have convinced directv to give me the $99 hd deal - I had allready purchased a multiswitch and triple lnb dish so I am set.. anyway I am out in Maineville / Hamilton Township and according to antenna web I would need a medium gain - amplified antenna - I am just curoius as to what people are using and have had good luck with.. thanks!

jim

Doc--

Quick update on the HDTivo. I spent some time last night watching Sheryl Crowe and Andy Richter on HDNet (both recorded, not live), and experienced no audio drop-out. I used to have quite a problem with this when I was using the TS160 and the HDTivo seems more stable in this regard. I did get a little bit of macroblocking, but the weather was not good when these were recorded and trans 24 is still my weakest link. I'm thinking some of the people reporting problems specific to HDNet might not realize the transponder has been changed maybe requiring re-alignment like you and I did.

I've also not seen the twitter that some are reporting when viewing upscaled 480i. This could be specific with certain displays or the fact that some are a hell of a lot more discriminating than I am. It's not unusual for me to watch evening TV along with an adult beverage, so my visual acuity might be suspect :)

Thanks for the report and hear-hear to "adult beverages."

Rain fade has been an issue, this week. Lots of tall, heavy clouds and with 119 at a shallower angle than 110, the signal has more atmosphere to cut through. I had fits with everything on 119, Sunday. I do need to pull the dish competely off and start over, sometime this summer.

Thanks for the update. Keep us apprised of any other issues you see. If any. Sounds like a solid product. But then, if memory serves, it's already second-generation since the original prototypes only had one ATSC tuner.

Doc

Originally posted by jim tressler
anyway I am out in Maineville / Hamilton Township and according to antenna web I would need a medium gain - amplified antenna - I am just curoius as to what people are using and have had good luck with.. thanks!


There are many options that might work well for you, although - unless you want to experiment with simple indoor antennas, I'd keep away from non-directional antennas.

An small to medium sized VHF-UHF combo antenna such as the Winegard HD7080p ( http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/hd7080p.pdf ) would probably be a good choice, -- CM(CM3016)+Radio shack(VU-90, VU-75) have simliar sized VHF/UHF combo antennas with similar performance, although the winegard antennas are probably a little better than those, especially when it comes to UHF gain. -- Keep in mind, While most Digital stations are on UHF currently, ABC Cincinnati(WCPO-DT) broadcasts on VHF 10, and in the future(after analog shut off) more stations will likely move their digital station to their current analog VHF channel.

For best results, mount antenna outdoors as high as reasonably possible and aim it towards the towers of the stations you wish to receive. Be sure to properly ground(many good threads on Grounding in the Hardware area of AVS). One heading should suffice from your location for all the Cincinnati stations. If you want to pull in Both Dayton+Cincinnati stations, you'll either need a rotor or seperate antennas on seperate feedlines with a a/b switch near your receiver to switch between antenna.

I'd try it without the preamp first though -- You might not need it -- Preamps can help, but sometimes they can hurt as well.

To try to answer your questions -- I'm North of Middletown - 12 Miles from Dayton antenna farm, 27~39 Miles from the Cincy/N KY TV towers and except for WSTR-DT/WCVN-DT/WKOI-DT, I can pull in all the Cincinnati/Dayton Digitals with decent results with a simple UHF folded dipole (Here's a pic: http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=15-234 ) for UHF and Rabbit Ears for WCPO-DT 10 - With these antennas placed near a 2nd story window that faces the towers(East window for Dayton, South window for Cincinnati). I didn't notice any dropouts or reception problems with that setup when I was seeing how well it would do, but then again, I didn't check it for very long -- Just a couple of hours. Analog reception wasn't too great in comparison with this setup -- quite Ghosty+Snowy. For fun I also tried experimenting with an antenna in attic, and I really didn't get much of anything from there. I should mention, I'm in a small, steep forested valley which impairs my reception somewhat, however, the terrain issues aren't too bad towards Dayton+Cincinnati Towers.

As for what I actually use -- I posted a pic of it here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=2450418&fullpage=1

No problems with any of the Dayton/Cincinnati stations with this -- No dropouts ! - I get excellent digital+analog reception with this setup -- I receive 21 Dayton/Cincinnati(and a couple of Columbus/Louisville stations on low-VHF) analogs most with excellent quality(as good as NTSC analog gets anyway), and 13 Digital stations(11 currently with HD or Fox widescreen) currently -- Due to their directional antenna pattern+low power, I only see WKOI-DT(TBN) when leaves are off trees. Yes, I receive 36 stations with it all the time, soon to be 37 I assume when WPTO-DT hits the airwaves.

The antenna on top in picture is a RS VU-210 antenna -- a large VHF-UHF combo - Boom is 16' long for reference - I put this one up in 1993 - still works like new -- w/rotor + Blonder-Tongue Preamp(80's vintage Galaxy Series Surburban II - About 20DB gain UHF, 10db gain VHF), mounted on top of a 40' tower -- I use the VU210 For Cincinnati+more distant stations - Including FM - when I can get them.

For Dayton+convienance so I don't have to wait for the rotor to rotate/etc I have a seperate antenna setup on a seperate feedline(using A/B switch near receiver to switch between Cincy/Dayton antennas), the antennas you see side mounted to tower are a 25 element UHF yagi(not sure of the brand - It's from the early 80's I believe+I found it in rafters in the garage) for UHF, and a "modified" CM3010+it's internal CM3038 preamp which I use for Dayton VHF/FM only. The CM3010 is pretty much a outdoor pair of rabbit ears, but it's fine for the Dayton VHF analogs+FM's - It's UHF section is particurarly poor+I wouldn't recommend it, which is why I removed the UHF section and hooked up a better UHF antenna to it's UHF input on the CM3010's internal circut board instead .... The setup is overkill for the most part -- except for getting watchable signals from stations like analog WBQC 25 UPN Cincinnati and WCMH 4 Columbus WAVE 3 Lousiville/etc ... I do however also need a decent setup to get good reception from WCVN-DT (KET/PBS in N KY).

Also -- I have these antennas hooked up to many different TV's and devices throughout the house, so I split the signal quite a bit(each split = about 3.5db of signal loss) therefore the preamp is quite helpful -- The terrain/trees I have here do seem to help attenuate the signals a bit before it gets to my antenna, If that weren't the case, Preamp overload would probably be a serious problem here where the nearby Dayton stations are concerned.

Probably more than you wanted to know, but you did ask! I TRIED to make it short anyway ;-)

jeff.. that was great.. thanks for the info

Jim,

Let us know how it goes, we'll be glad to try to help if you run into any problems ... BTW --- If you get the OTA antenna up before you get your new display and or/receiver, If you optimize the setup for good analog reception(minmize Snow/ghosts as much as possible) with a "old fashioned" TV, chances are good you'll get good digital reception when you get your receiver as well. Also, if you get the receiver/STB before the TV, you should be able to hook it up to a Old fashioned analog TV(or VCR/etc) via composite or s-video inputs ...

Hey Jkeane-I've heard that Tivo when recording OTA (in HD of course), has trouble scheduling via the guide cause the broadcast ID/code/show info isn't there for the most part. Have you tested this?

hugenbdd ( or DrDon or anyone who might know),

I had an idea regarding the Insight HD/DVR . I wonder if this idea might be a workaround enabling me to watch a live show while recording another... During the install could the cable guy install a splitter so that the DVR gets one feed and my STB or VCR gets another feed (with no converter in between)? That way I could change inputs on my TV to watch live via the other cable input. I realize that a slight drawback is that only the Motorola converter/DVR decodes thing like HD and premium channels, but wouldn't the TV or VCR pick up all the other channels and let me watch that feed while recording with the other feed? Is that a viable workaround to the situation?

Personally, I'm going to hold off for awhile on the DirecTV due to cost. I'll bet that setup will get much cheaper over the next year or so.

ItzMe..

Oh, sure. If you don't mind watching SD, that will work, since you won't be using the PVR to tune the channel being watched. You'll be limited to Insight's lower 70 channels.

Another, although slightly more expensive option, is to pick up an ATSC-only tuner and use that so you can watch OTA HD while you record. I've seen the Samsung 151s selling in the 100-200-dollar range on eBay...

Doc

ItzMe
Yup, You could split, Again like Doc said, only SD and lower 70 channels. I also think that the 6208 has a "passthrough" I haven't messed with it, but I noticed it was in the setup menu. A place to turn the pass through (cable) on and off. So the box itself may act as a splitter.

Now, you can still watch a recorded show and record a show at the same time...

Dave

chrisdow--

I've set up all my season passes using the guide and while it's only been a week, I have not missed any shows and all that were supposed to be recorded in HD were in fact recorded that way. I do not have the satellite locals which are SD in my "Favorites" list so I don't choose them in error. I think for the most part, the Cinci stations do a pretty good job with their PSIP.

Jack.. it's ATSC and DirecTV only, right? Does it do any NTSC?

JKeane-The "unselected" D* locals is a good idea so not to have repeated recorded shows , But I thought a season pass depends this PSIP (i.e. program is a repeat or a first run) & now I can get little or no "show-info" at all (with my DTC100 anyway) - is this box magic or what? Really can't wait for it...CD

I think the box relies on DirecTV's APG, which is quite accurate with the DTV locals.

For someone who grew up in the 1950's watching Flash Gordon, Jetsons, etc., and spending Saturdays on the roof with my dad trying to angle our antenna to get anything in color without sound bars and ghosts.....this box is definitely magic.

More to the point--I don't understand all the technical stuff at all, but I have full program info on the OTA DT stations and so far everything has worked very well.

Doc--

Sorry I missed your earlier post regarding NTSC -- you are correct, it's Directv and ATSC only.

I have good news for fellow KET/WCVN-DT viewers :

KET (WCVN-DT - 54-4/KET4 - Covington, KY) is expanding their HD service! From the KET website/HD programming schedule ( here: http://www.ket.org/agency/dtv/programs.htm )

Beginning May 1, we’re expanding our digital offerings with a full evening of prime-time programming from the PBS HD Channel every night: 7:00-11:00 pm ET on Sundays, and 8:00-11:00 pm ET Monday-Saturday.

----------------------------------------------------

I was hoping my 2,000th post could be a good one!

Way to Go KET! Thanks to William and everyone else at KET !

Wow, that is good news for KET viewers. It'll be nice to have a backup for WCET 48-1. I'm still waiting for WPTO-DT to fire up on CH 28. Greater Cincinnati/Dayton is a PBS viewers dream for sure. Congradts on the 2000th post. I have a while to go myself :D

Looks like KET started the new schedule a night early ....

but, the directv sd locals still come in right? so you will have both sd and digital versions of the locals? right?

thanks

jim

Originally posted by jkeane
Doc--

Sorry I missed your earlier post regarding NTSC -- you are correct, it's Directv and ATSC only.

Hi Jim--

You're correct--both the satellite SD locals and OTA digitals are received, just no OTA analog.

No HD golf from WKRC. WKRC-DT 12/31 Newsroom 513-763-5422
if anyone cares to call. I made mine.

Unless the info from the calls aren't getting through to the right place, I wonder if they might be having problems - I have noticed recently(over the last week or so) that during CBS HD only I'm seeing what appears to be quite a few non-reception related dropouts from them.

BTW, WHIO-DT had the HD Golf when I first looked at 3:10pm.

Update: Been switching between Derby, Nascar+ Golf, but at 5:25pm its now HD on WKRC-DT ...

WKRC-DT has been having drop out problems over the last week. I hope they can fix it soon and not decide to wait and fix it when they drop WH at the of the month.

Anyone know anything about TWC plans to add Fox 19 HD signal?

What we're hearing is that TWC and Insight will probably add them when they start passing real HD (as opposed to upconverted 480p) this fall.

Doc

I got an LG LST-3510A OTA receiver/DVD player from from CC on 'open box' clearance for $389. The unit does not show the upconverted DVD through component video, though, so it's going back.

My Zenith Silver Sensor indoor antenna does not pull in ABC or KET. It has a little trouble without an antenna adjustment on WB and CET, so maybe it needs an amp, although there may be no helping ABC/VHF-10. Not sure if there was any KET HD on at the time.

The receiver has QAM cable tuning capability, and it picks up some networks, some digital radio stations, what must be an HBO or two, and some pay-per-view 4x3 movie channels (Hulk, Matrix, Cat in the Hat), but the pay-per-view programs hop around.

It was nice to see that CET is showing some PBS HD channel. I sent CET an e-mail through their website tonight re their station ID bug, telling them it's too bright relative to the PBS bug. I think KET on cable was without a bug, and simply seeing the PBS HD bug was much better.

When football season starts, I may get an OTA-only unit or give Insight another chance.

whozep,

Keep in mind, the Silver Sensor is not a VHF antenna. Rabbit ears would likely work better for you for WCPO, you can combine a VHF+UHF antenna using a VHF/UHF joiner such as the CM0549 -- RS has one too, I can't think of the # presently. FWIW, I can Get WCPO-DT just fine from up here(32 miles) with Rabbit ears near a South facing window.

WCET-DT (CET-HD) Airs PBS HD channel on 48-1 every night 7-11pm.

WCVN-DT (KET - 54-4) now airs PBS HD channel every night(Including tonight), 8-11pm Mon-sat, 7-11pm Sunday. They had some problems with A/V sync/etc. Fri-Sun Night, but it's been fine the last 2 nights, and previously back to Jan 03 when they first started doing PBS HD. Yes, Currently there is no local bug on KET4 for PBS HD channel(there are also no local bugs from any of WPTD-DT's Dayton's program services currently, BTW Including PBS HD channel(6pm-6am nightly from them) . WCVN tower is in Taylor Mill, KY Just North of I-275. Again, FWIW -- I get them just fine up here from 39 miles, takes a decent outdoor setup from here, though ...

WCET's antenna pattern does not favor your direction, WB(WSTR-DT) digital is at low power presently, I expect that might account a bit for your need for antenna adjusting for them, especially given that you're using a lo-gain indoor antenna(which should be fine at your distance for the "most part"). Especially as WLWT-DT 35(remap 5.1)/WCET-DT 34(remap 48.x) are broadcasting from the SAME tower, and on 1st adjacent channels.

You could try it, it might help, but generally I would not recommend a amp from your distance as the preamp could easily be overloaded. Using a amp with indoor antennas often doesn't work out so well either as you'll probably just end up amplifing noise(RFI/etc+Multipath echos), so instead I would recommend finding a "sweet spot" for the antenna(near window facing the towers for stations you want to receive is often a good spot), or even better would be if you can get a outdoor antenna(directonal) set up.

Hope some of this helps, I wouldn't think it would be too difficult to improve your reception(If you do go OTA this fall), though.

Ohio viewers seem to have more consistant success getting KET than Florence viewers. It just depends on your location. If you are up on the flat such as the level of the Florence building on Ewing Blvd you should be OK with an outside antenna. I'm down in a hole with hills between me and the station and have problems. You should be able to get all the other stations OK with an outside UHF antenna, even WCPO-DT on channel 10.

Note that even though your LG LST-3510A has QAM, it cannot receive scrambled signals. 1080i DVD output on the component output is automatically reduced to 480i/p if the disk is copy protected. The 1080i output from the DVI connector remains at 1080i for copy protected DVDs.
Even though the DVD output is upscaled to 1080i, and the picture is hopefully improved, it is still not equal to true HD.

Originally posted by ClarkeR
It just depends on your location.


Certianly. Especially In our area where there is hilly terrain(especially nearby steep hills right in the signal path), where you are can make a BIG difference. Generally speaking though, the closer you are to the towers, the more likely it is the signal can "see over" those hills to your antenna. WCVN's(KET) tower however is not as high as the others, which are 400-800 FT higher, and the closer and steeper the hill involved is to you, the easier it is to get "skipped over", or the more likely it is you are having to rely on a "shaky" bounce for the signal, which might even be more problematic if you're close to the tower as I'd expect there could be a LOT of bouncing of strong signals going around.

If I recall correctly, you are in an especially difficult spot terrain wise when it comes to WCVN, even though you are fairly close to the tower. Still, even though you are having problems with a hi-gain rooftop antenna, wouldn't be surprised if you could move an antenna such as this around(even indoors) and find a "sweet spot" for good reception from WCVN-DT : http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog_name=CTLG&product_id=15-234

I suppose Multipath could be a more difficult issue in some situations when you're quite close to the towers. I've even seen it years ago with analog from the Price hill area+Cincy Towers -- From on TOP of the hill with no obstructions - Oddly enough, from that location, WCVN 54 was easiest to get the best signal from - With a outdoor, directional antenna(RS-VU-90 if I recall correctly. Some of The Cincy Analog signals - Especially WXIX - the closest were just "bouning around" all over the place and creating horrible ghosting even though one could SEE the towers.

Still, if it is true that in general, Folks in Florence have more difficulty with WCVN than is the case in Ohio/etc, I would still have to wonder about the possibility that there might be something else Odd(interference related issues) going on.

In any event, looks like where multipath is concerned, they are making significant improvements on the receiver end -- Here are a couple of recent articles:

http://www.tvtechnology.com/dlrf/one.php?id=421

http://www.tvtechnology.com/dlrf/one.php?id=416


Originally posted by ClarkeR
You should be able to get all the other stations OK with an outside UHF antenna, even WCPO-DT on channel 10.


Probably so, for that matter, I'd guess many, if not most folks within 10-15 miles(excepting those in terrain or multipath challenged locations, or those in the null of WSTR's or WCET's directional antenna patterns) of the Cincy towers(even WCVN) can likely get decent results with simple indoor antennas, although some adjustment as well as likely the need to find a "sweet spot" for the antenna for good reception may be necessary in most situation for different stations.

I wouldn't really say you could count on a UHF antenna, even outdoors working well for WCPO-DT, although at 8-10 miles or so distant from the Tower as Florence is, I would agree there's a good chance it would, the same is true for a coathanger or a short piece of wire.

There is an interesting reception report using a settop amplifed antenna from Libery Twp/Butler co which popped up on hdtvpub on 4/30 which you might want to check out - WCPO-DT is missing, I'd guess the antenna he is using is UHF only. Even WCVN-DT is reported as being received, although it says he has to fiddle with the antenna to get it : http://www.hdtvpub.com/local/viewOTAReports.cfm/group_plasma-hdtv/zipcode_45042/dma_515/

You WANT a bug for KET4????

I "forgot" to put one in.... now where is that disk?????



William

Lord no! It is a real treat to not have bugs on KET4 or currently from any of WPTD-DT Dayton's program services ... For however long it lasts ....

But, we can pretend its there if necessary I suppose ;)

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
But, we can pretend its there if necessary I suppose ;) I've drawn one on a post-it note I can stick on the side of the TV if that'll help.

I'll stick the MST3K guys just below the screen as well, then the people meter will have to add 3 more for my house ;)

FYI, A update for this month's WKRC-DT HD-One movie schedule has just been posted at http://www.cincinnatihdtv.com at the following thread:

http://www.cincinnatihdtv.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=60#60

The jist of it is, Instead of as previously scheduled on sat night, "STII: WOK" Will air in HD on WKRC-DT on Sunday, May 9 at 12 Noon.

Thanks for the update weasel :)

Does anyone from TWC read this forum? I emailed and called again about EspnHD and still same answer. They are looking into it. I hear this quarter possibly, but who really knows?

Mike,

I spoke with TWC today. Doesn't look good on ESPNHD anytime soon. Certainly not this quarter. Appears ESPN wants more $$$ then TW wants to pay.

Also I spoke with a Engineer that told me they are currently testing the HDDVR in the office. Maybe a month or 2 for those to be ready.

Hmm, I hope they will make up their mind soon. I wonder how much they want to charge per subscriber? Thats great news about the HD DVR. Thanks for the info.

Well, don't know what happened to HD-One/STII, all I'm getting is infomericals from WKRC-DT 12-12:10pm 5/9.

On the other hand, a nice surprise as WKEF-DT is carrying NBC's boxing in hi-def. I had no idea it was even planned. Must've missed the memo.

Doc

Me neither. You gotta love that new autoswitcher at KEF.

WKRC-DT did have about 10 seconds of the beginning of STII about 12:58pm(mostly the promo), but they switched back to infomericals. I think its about 2.5 hours, if so they would have had to start it by 12:30 for the Golf at 3pm. Hopefully they can reschedule, as I was really looking forward HD for STII. Someone in another thread caught it out in CA last night and commented that the PQ was very good, the transfer(well, more like the print itself) didn't look so good last month for ST:TMP.

Back to the outdoor work ...

Is TWC offering a HD cable box with firewire out? Is it enabled?

Does TWC post the make/model of their current cable boxes that they are offering?

Thanks,
Mark

Due to a "snafu" the HD-One/STII movie will not be seen this month. If I get any new info I will post it.

Thanks for the follow up WHweasel.
--------------------------------

Concerning WPTO-DT -- Not that it means much of anything, but I did notice today that both Antennaweb+TitanTV show them as "testing" now ...

Last we heard (here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3582067#post3582067 ) looked like at the end of March anyway, they were planning for a Mid-may on air date, that is, if the weather+tower work co-operated ...

Originally posted by MarkV
Is TWC offering a HD cable box with firewire out? Is it enabled?

Does TWC post the make/model of their current cable boxes that they are offering?

Thanks,
Mark

The Pace DC-550 is the current box that I am aware of that TW Cinci is using. That model is NOT Fireware capable. The Pace DC-551 is the model your wanting. Seems to be a very new model as product literature is not even available yet.

The Pace DC-551 HD is among the first HDMI HD set-tops in the industry. The Pace DC-551 HD is available with dual 1394 ports. The Pace DC-551 HD builds on to the feature set the Pace DC-550 HD has.

Call TW and tell them that your needing it and they may help. I pestered them for months and finally got the PACE 550 and now it has become a standard.

As a side note,

What application are you wanting to use fireware from your cable box for?

Either JVC30/40k and/or 1394->PC (preferred). I believe I've seen reference to an HD tivo-like box coming in a quarter or so.

Hi gang,

Have there been any updates on higher power/new antenna for 64-1? I got my HD tivo hooked up last night, and one interesting feature of the box is that the signal strength meter is showing MUCH higher for 64-1 than any of my other boxes ever have. Almost got a lock, but not quite, consistently hitting around 30-40% whereas on the HTL-HD it's usually between 3-9.

I'm thinking with a better antenna, and perhaps a rotor, I could pull them in. I know I'm in the worst part of the null for them ATM, but I'm getting *so close*. :-)

All of our other Cincy/NKy channels seem much more stable as well, I'm impressed with the tuner in this box so far.

thanks,
Dave

I was wondering if anyone knew if TWC here in cincinnati was planning on adding TNT HD on May 21st as some of the other TWC affiliates like Memphis and Houston etc. Also I was wondering if anyone knew of the plans for other new HD stations (other than ESPN) like Fox, WB, BravoHD+, StarzHD, CinemaxHD, or any other one that you might know.

Grazant,

Just as a FYI, Our local digital WB affilaite, WSTR-DT does not do WB HD yet -- it's just 480i 4x3 SD so far. Local Fox digital WXIX-DT does do Fox Widescreen(which isn't HD - it's ED). I don't know, but I think TW may carry them sometime after Fox starts doing HD in a few months.

Originally posted by dt_parker
Hi gang,

Have there been any updates on higher power/new antenna for 64-1? I got my HD tivo hooked up last night, and one interesting feature of the box is that the signal strength meter is showing MUCH higher for 64-1 than any of my other boxes ever have. Almost got a lock, but not quite, consistently hitting around 30-40% whereas on the HTL-HD it's usually between 3-9.

I'm thinking with a better antenna, and perhaps a rotor, I could pull them in. I know I'm in the worst part of the null for them ATM, but I'm getting *so close*. :-)



Dave,

Hopefully someone else has some info and can post, but I haven't heard anything concerning WSTR-DT 33(remap 64-1)--- It does Sound like you are getting awfully close with the new box. I'd guess probably just a couple db(if that much) away from getting a lock on them. A bit of antenna aiming(that might be your best shot), or a antenna with a bit higher gain, or higher gain+better directivity+antenna aiming might do the trick. If you're using a splitter somewhere, even taking that out might do it. If you manage it, I think you'll be the first one from that area to pull them in, that I know of or who has posted in the Cincy threads anyway.

I do wonder though if having WCET-DT 34 on 1st adjacent channel to WSTR-DT+throwing 215KW ERP in your direction, with WSTR-DT only throwing a few hundred watts ERP(given their STA+antenna pattern) in your direction might make it somewhat difficult for your receiver to be selective enough to pull out WSTR-DT. While DT stations on adjacent channels seems to work very well for the most part, that's a big difference and a few hundred watts on UHF isn't much ... Shouldn't be as bad as the following, but it would be "Sort of" like trying to hear a fairly weak station on 710AM when your driving by WLW along I-75 near the old Bethany VOA site.

So I wonder, presently if you see any improvement in the reading from 64-1 after WCET-DT goes off air nightly around 11pm or so, if so, that might tell you something.

Who knows, hopefully someday it might even be more worth your effort if they ever start passing through WB HD ... I had heard recently in the "news" that Sinclair has purchased the equipment necessary to outfit most of their stations to do HD, I don't know if that "most" includes WSTR at this point or not. Also, I do think Their SD does look quite good these days as well however, especially for the WB 64 news given their new gear.

Anyhow, Good luck+let us know if you get them in.

Jeff,

Thanks, I think I will try removing my splitter tonight, just as a test. Rotating my antenna is something of a pain - 28' extension ladder, unbolt the clamps and turn - it's mounted to the side of the house. When I had it installed a few years back, the installer adjusted for max signal from analog 64, but I have moved it around a time or two to check out reception from Dayton and the like - still, I'm pretty close ATM to where it was aiming originally. I've wanted to get a better antenna and rotor for sometime, you may recall. Now that I've got a job again, these things become a little easier....

I know that there is currently no real gain by picking up the 64-1 digital in terms of content. At this point, it's more of a quest for me just to see if I can do it :-) I'm gonna need a better antenna and rotor anyway to get Dayton reliably...

You're probably right about the adjacent channel signal being something of an issue. I got enough of a lock on 64-1 to see the PSIP remap on my old
Sammy T150. As I recall, it happened late at night.

Dave

dt_p,
LUCKY GUY - Where'd you get HD-Tivo?
Signed,
jealous & on pre-order at BB & GG...

Originally posted by Grazant
I was wondering if anyone knew if TWC here in cincinnati was planning on adding TNT HD on May 21st as some of the other TWC affiliates like Memphis and Houston etc. Also I was wondering if anyone knew of the plans for other new HD stations (other than ESPN) like Fox, WB, BravoHD+, StarzHD, CinemaxHD, or any other one that you might know.

Man I sure would like to know that as well. I email and call TWC every week about ESPN HD. I am sure they are tired of hearing from me, but I don't care. I pay them a lot of money and I want more HD channels. I think most people are even willing to pay a few dollars. I'd pay $2 a month for ESPN HD. I pay $6.95 for the 4 extra HD channels. I wish they would get with the program.

Originally posted by chrisdow
dt_p,
LUCKY GUY - Where'd you get HD-Tivo?
Signed,
jealous & on pre-order at BB & GG...

Ordered May 7, 2-day air, received May 10, a day early. CC has been blowing them out the doors, it seems.

From the sound of things over in TiVoCommunity, BB is shipping today, so you should have yours before too long. :-)
Dave

Originally posted by Grazant
I was wondering if anyone knew if TWC here in cincinnati was planning on adding TNT HD on May 21st as some of the other TWC affiliates like Memphis and Houston etc. Also I was wondering if anyone knew of the plans for other new HD stations (other than ESPN) like Fox, WB, BravoHD+, StarzHD, CinemaxHD, or any other one that you might know.

Looks like we may be in luck!!!!

TV Guide Online now lists channel 969 for TWC Cincy as TNT HD!!!! There's no programming on it now nor does it show up on the TWC program guide nor website. But let's hope we get it next week for the NBA playoffs.

Wow that is great news. I never even thought to look there. I hope it is true! I posted it to my site as well.
Thank you!

They mentioned near end of WCPO noon local news today that they will be in their New Studios on Monday. So, hopefully we'll get DD5.1 from them before too long.


--------------------------------------
"Goodbye to the Future of Rock and Roll ...."

Hey CincySaint thanks for the info I am excited to see how much of TNT's regular content will be broadcast in HD like movies and such. I have heard they should start broadcasts on May 21st but maybe we will get some tests sooner than that. I also heard that WCPO is moving this weekend and will not be having regular news broadcasts. Hopefully DD 5.1 will be up next week. This should be a good week for Cincinnati HDTV viewers. Thanks again.

Originally posted by Grazant
Hopefully DD 5.1 will be up next week.

I wouldn't think it will happen THAT soon. I imagine they have quite a bit of work to do to move+setup all the necessary equipment, while I assume -- staying on air(at least as much as possible) --- Who knows, but A few weeks, or a month or two might be more like it for DD 5.1 from WCPO-DT.

Well I'm pretty sure we're getting TNT HD now!!!!

Today I received as part of the Sunday paper an ad from TWC which includes TNT HD as part of their digital basic HD offerings.

TNT HD will be on TWC Channel 969 Monday 17 May. A quick call to TWC confirmed this.

I don't know if anyone else is receiving bad audio from WCPO 9. I don't have their Digital anymore, hopefully that will come back. I have called them and left a message about the audio, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't the only one getting it.

JY Dogg -- Yeah, noticed that during evening local 9 news. I imagine they might have some work to do working the bugs out at the new building.

WCPO digital has been off the air Since sometime yesterday, No ABC HD on Fri or Sat from them. Again, likely due to their move to the new building -- Move+set up equipment, new STL/etc. My guess is, they'll be working the bugs out with the analog/new control room/etc. before they have time to do much with the digital station.

Well after not seeing TNT-HD on my TWC I called and yelled. They had problems and it seems they will try again sometime on Wednesday of this week.

Originally posted by WebHopperWeasel
Well after not seeing TNT-HD on my TWC I called and yelled. They had problems and it seems they will try again sometime on Wednesday of this week.

In time for the T-Wolves-Kings game 7, I hope.

Anyone know if that's being broadcast in HD?

Wanted to quickly say Kudos to(in no particular order):

#1)WCET-DT for staying on air until 12 am last night for the 2nd airing of the 2 hour Part 1 of Colonial House ...

#2) KET4/WCVN-DT for waiting until 12am to switch from 720p/PBS HD channel to 480i CPB/Annenburg last night, and also (IMO) for their improved HD/PBS Widescreen PQ(especially where MPEGII compression artifacts are concerned) as of late.

anyone noticing alot of HD dropouts on TWC cable lately? Doesn't seem to be any one channel in particular.

I have not seen many drop outs at all. I watched the entire Golf on Sunday and all the HD programs on WKRC last night with no troubles.

Originally posted by WebHopperWeasel
anyone noticing alot of HD dropouts on TWC cable lately? Doesn't seem to be any one channel in particular.

Sorry but I haven’t noticed any either.

The only problems I am having is that I am still waiting to get TNT-HD and for WCPO-HD to come back on the air. I know that WCPO moved and that is probably why their digital channel isn’t working on TWC but I was wondering if anyone else was unable to get WCPO-HD on TWC and if everyone is having this problem when WCPO-HD will be back up and running on cable not OTA.

Since TWC is fed from the same encoder as OTA, WCPO-DT will return to both at the same time. You'll have to be patient. Moving a studio is quite an undertaking. You don't build a duplicate and just move. Most of the gear has to be hauled over and hooked up. Editing suites, post-production suites.. all the stuff they need to produce live programming and commercials/promos has to be up and running before they can turn their attention to non-critical (which DT is for now) systems.

Originally posted by WebHopperWeasel
anyone noticing alot of HD dropouts on TWC cable lately? Doesn't seem to be any one channel in particular.

I am not sure exactly what you mean by drop outs but I occasionaly get a black screen on 909 & 912 that lasts a second or two before the picture returns. This might occur 2 or 3 times an hour. About three weeks ago I was having significant problems with 912 (WKRC) I was getting the loss of picture for 10 or more seconds at a time and significant pixilation of the picture. This lasted maybe a week and then seemed to clear up.

Ok I called AGAIN to TWC cable about TNT-HD. Now it appears that it will be on Friday the 21st. They did not have a time. I am waiting for a update on WPCO timeline for HD also.

WCPO-DT is getting attention, today. As thought, it's been a week full of bugs at the new Gilbert location. Power has been out for part of the morning... no doubt giving brand new generators a chance to work out. They've flown in a guy to work on getting 10 back up and running. There's no firm ETA, but barring any disasters, they're shooting to have it back up by tomorrow afternoon.

Meanwhile, the new power level from WHIO-DT makes it viewable here (or it could be the weather). That's ABC, NBC and CBS coming in well here in northern KY.

Doc

What channel is WHIO, I'll give it a try. On that note, didn't some of ya'll make a data base web site of newer channels we might want to try tuning in? Is there a list? or a link?

Also, did anyone notice a good deal of pixelation in Colonial House (both nights). I almost changed over to the analog or Sat feed to get rid of it.

Doc,

Thanks for the info on WCPO-DT.

Itzme,

I noticed compression artifact problems during Colonial house(as is usual for PBS HD/WIdescreen programming when the station is running 2 SD services+1080i HD) from WCET-DT on 48-1 AND even the SD on 48-2(looks like to me 48-1 is getting priority via Stat mux) and WPTD-DT Dayton(16-6 HD), but didn't look any worse than "normal" to me on 48-1 or 16-6. I thought Colonial house looked quite good on KET4/WCVN-DT -- Didn't really notice any problems with compression artifacts there. I was watching it both nights on my smaller 26" 16x9 display though.

WHIO-DT is on RF channel 41, they don't currently send channel remapping info via PSIP.

No new stations have signed on in our area since Early 2003, The only one left with a digital channel allocation currently is WPTO-DT 28, which should hopefully be signing on from WXIX tower soon.

www.antennaweb.org has all the stations in the area listed(14 DTV stations currently on air in Dayton/Cincinnati area), just punch in your address. See Second post of this thread for info on Cincinnati/N KY digital stations(+WKOI) Follows is a quick list of the Dayton digital stations you've got a shot at:

WBDT-DT 18 (26-1 remap) - WB Dayton - SD only No HD yet - Might be tough to pull in from N KY - They are at full power, but it's only 35KW ERP. WLEX 18 Lexington, KY is probably a substantial co-channel issue for you.

WRGT-DT 30 (no remap) Fox Dayton w/Fox WS - might be a long shot from N KY due to their directional antenna pattern, and WXIX-DT with a strong signal at your location on 1st adjacent channel.

WHIO-DT 41 (no PSIP remap) (CBS Dayton - HD)
WDTN-DT 50 (remap to 2-x) (ABC Dayton - HD)
WKEF-DT 51 (no PSIP remap) (NBC Dayton - HD)
WPTD-DT 58 (remap to 16-2~6)(ThinkTV/PBS Dayton -PBS HD channel on 16-6 6pm-6am nightly)

WCPO-DT is On the air at 1pm -- No audio on 9-1 presently however -- Audio on 9-2 seems is CNN(Video is radar). Looks like they're working on it still, as they threw up color bars on 9-1 for a second.

The upconvert for ABC Soap on 9-1 DOES look better to me, although I'm not looking at it on my best display presently.

Update: 1:04pm -- WCPO-DT back off air --

This is too much fun, but I've got to get busy ....

Update #2 - 2:10pm - WCPO-DT has been up with a stable signal now for at least the last 20 minutes, so I'd think that's hopefully a good sign. They did go into "blank screen mode"(with the Transmitter still up) a few minutes ago, and only audio currently present is still CNN on 9-2.

Well TNT-HD is on TWC cable now. So far everything has been in fullscreen. Even the commericals. I can't check for DD 5.1 here at work but will be checking for that at home tonite. Very impressed.

WCPO still has no audio on TWC anyways but they do have video.

Originally posted by WebHopperWeasel
WCPO still has no audio ... You should call them. Because you KNOW they're counting the inquiries.

In any event, I haven't seen anything to indicate that the sat receiver for ABC-HD has been moved over, yet. The video feed they're running is right out of the master switcher. We're not even getting the WCPO-DT 10 ID bug, yet. I would imagine you'd see an hour or two of ABC's HD test loop once they have that gear in place. We've seen that in the past anytime they messed with the DT setup. It's possible I could have missed it, but I think we may still be a few days away from getting the HD back. Thank God for a big antenna and WDTN-DT.

Webhopper thanks for the update on TNT-HD. Can't wait to get home and have a look.

DD 5.1 is working for Charmed on TNT HD.

Hey Good news!

At 6:21pm, Getting proper audio from 9News on WCPO-DT 9-1 now, NWS Audio came up on 9-2 a bit earlier. Nice to see progress :)

I hated to pester them, but I did send them note just before 5pm ...

I blew in another call, too.

Originally posted by DrDon
Thank God for a big antenna and WDTN-DT.

Lets hope that's enough for Alias tomorrow night .... unless it is a national issue, DTN is missing ABC HD tonight for "Fast and Furious", which was scheduled per ABC website for HD .... Deja Vu from last Saturday+the missing HD Hockey+Harry Potter ... I'll try to contact Indy this time I suppose (for those that don't know, WDTN HD switching is controlled from a facility in Indianapolis) ...

Is anyone successfully receiving WKRC-DT? I am getting a good signal, but it's not locking on to anything. Been like this for a couple days.

jim

The PSIP seems to be off. They're solid here, but on 31-1. FWIW, WHIO-DT has upped power. You should be able to hit them as an alternate. If I'm getting them like gangbusters, they should be cake for you.

Doc

I live in Edgewood KY. Using HD200 am able to receive all Digital local stations except WXIX. Initially they did not have much to offer in HD so I never pursued it. Looks like this might be changing. Looking for recommendations for service/installation person to tweak or replace my current rooftop antennae

smboyer,

All I can offer you is that I and get Fox at 29-1 (remap 19-1) just fine. I don't have to rotate my rooftop antenna from any of the other digital locals to get WXIX. My antenna is a Wein or Wine-???? something (sorry, forgot the whole name). Sorry I'm not much help.

Originally posted by DrDon
The PSIP seems to be off. They're solid here, but on 31-1. FWIW, WHIO-DT has upped power. You should be able to hit them as an alternate. If I'm getting them like gangbusters, they should be cake for you.

Doc
I have no problems receiving WRGT-DT (30) without PSIP. WKRC-DT must be doing something my Dish 6000 doesn't like.

The power boost did nothing for WHIO-DT here. The reception is still bad. As I recall they transmit via a directional antenna. Must be pointing NE.

jim

I have the Zenith HD-SAT520, which is the same as the Sony HD200. To get WKRC back, re-scan channel 31. It worked for me, but put it at 31-1 instead of 12-1.

ABC-HD is back on WCPO-DT -- At least currently - at 8:30pm for "Beautiful Mind" ....

----------

WCVN Update - 8:55pm : WCVN digital+analog are currently off air ... Hope it's nothing more serious than a power outage .... Since WPTD-DT is missing audio for PBS HD channel presently(and presently running 4 SD services along with PBS HD channel), All I'm left with presently is WCET-DT for "Colonial House" ... Just goes to show even having TWO backups sometimes isn't too many .....

Originally posted by goldenrod
I have the Zenith HD-SAT520, which is the same as the Sony HD200. To get WKRC back, re-scan channel 31. It worked for me, but put it at 31-1 instead of 12-1. I have the predecessor to the Sat520 and a Samsung T-151. The Zenith still catches WKRC-DT as 12-1. I'm sure if I rescan the channel, it'll lose that. The Samsung, on the other hand, went to 31-1 and stayed there. My eyes tell me there's been no change in bitrate. But signal levels are still the same. Not sure why they dropped the PSIP, but if I get some time, I'll check into it.

Doc

Hey - Is it just my new set-up (HD D*Tivo installed!) or did anyone else notice that Alias was not in HD (full panel anyway) on Sunday on 9-1 like it usually is? (haven't watched the whole thing yet, so maybe was switched later on)
...and this is the cutting-edge staition that supposed to go DD ota in about a month? :)

I received this email from WCPO this morning, which will explain their HD situation:

I want to thank everyone who sent in emails regarding the digital signal.
To make a long story short, our encoder is not functional at this time.
What this means is that we are not capable of sending HDTV signals for the
time being.

Right now the only format available on WCPO dt 10 is the upconverted analog
signal from our regular programming.

I hope that all can bear with us concerning this unforseen event. I will be
sending periodic updates to everyone, including when we are back online with
our HDTV signal. Again, thanks to everyone who sent their concerns in.
I'll be talking to you soon.

Regards,

Greg Ruschman, Jr.
wcpo.com Web Content Editor

Jack,

I received that message from the WCPO email newsletter also. I got it last night just after 7pm -- The header info in the email seems to indicate it was sent by the list server around 7pm last night.

Nevertheless, As I reported last night -- Between 8:30~11 pm (it was SD upconvert at first, not sure when they made the switch to HD other than sometime between 8+8:30), WCPO-DT DID have ABC HD for "Beautiful Mind" ....

So, I assume they were able to get HD back quicker than they anticpated, but I don't know if it is in a "permanent fashion" yet ... Hopefully we'll get another update from Greg at WCPO soon.

For those that haven't seen it, you can subscribe to the WCPO-DT email newsletter(it's free -- just submit your email address) here:

http://www.wcpodt.com/newsletter.html

Chrisdow,

WCPO-DT did not have Alias in HD Monday Night(see above message from WCPO's email newsletter which Jack posted), and up until last night, they haven't had ABC HD for over a week due to their move to new studios(see previous posts in this thread concerning this issue). WDTN-DT Dayton, DID however have Alias in HD(and DD 5.1 as allways from them) Sunday night.

--------------------

Update 9:40pm: WCPO-DT did have HD for at least part of first "according to Jim" tonight, but there were audio problems(which weren't there last night) ... They've since dropped to SD for 2nd episode. I'd guess they'll get back to the "well-oiled machine" status we're used to from them "soon" ...

I would like to either move my existing antenna or have a new one installed and even though I put up the one that's there now, I no longer enjoy being "up on the roof". Can any of you make a recommendation for a competent installer in the Loveland/Symmes/Montgomery area? Thanks.

Jack

I received this email this morning from WCPO-DT:

Dear Subscribers,

Thanks to all with your inquries regarding our HD signal.

I will not have the ability to update the wcpo-dt site for the next couple
of weeks due to server problems (more good news!). Please stay patient
while we trudge through our technical quagmire. Talk to you soon.


Regards,

Gregory Ruschman, Jr.

I had my antenna installed by Larry at Advanced Antenna he's in Milford 831-6944.

6speed:

Thanks, I'll call him.

Is anyone else having trouble with INHD 1 & 2 on TWC? I have been unable to get them reliably since TWC put TNT HD on. I am happy about TNT HD but now I lost two HD channels to get one, bad deal. Also those stupid storms last night made me so upset, I missed Coyote Ugly in HD, I mean Tyra banks in HD. Thanks for any input.

RE Coyote Ugly, I wanted to shove a weather bug where the sun don't shine. WDTN-DT didn't have it in HD because of the weather bug and the crawl. WCPO-DT just kept running weather reports. I watched it on the Columbus station in HD for a couple minutes but the lightning kept interrupting the signal. So much for the ability to receive three ABC digital affiliates.

...so, how confident are we that WCPO-DT will have their "you-know-what-together" by NBA Finals-time which should be in HD!!??!!

Pretty confident. So long as there's not a weather watch in effect at game time. <g>

Minor news: WXIX is in the process of remodeling their master control facilities. That's really all I know, but it would be a little silly to do a remod and not put DT monitors in the control room. This may also explain why they didn't get the digital splicer install when Fox crews were in Dayton. No point putting something in that's going to have to be moved in a few weeks.

Not sure what's wrong with WCPO-DT. But I have heard they're up to their necks in studio move related fixes and tweaks. They probably will be for weeks to come.

Doc

Hockey game in HD looked excellent last night from WDTN-DT.

Did Notice WCPO-DT did have HD for a bit -- I think it was Friday night, but the audio was just noise.

I got this from them last week in response to my message farther below :

Jeff,

I'm glad it didn't take long, but there is still a good deal of tinkering
that needs to be performed in our present location to make sure our HD
signal is up and running smoothly. If you have any more questions, feel
free to contact me.

Greg

----------------

Greg --

Well that didn't take very long! I'm getting ABC HD for "Beautiful Mind"
from WCPO-DT 10 Presently(mon night) at 8:30pm ....

Thanks Much,

Jeff

I turned on the set this afternoon and saw that WKRC is at 31.01 today after I did a rescan. No sub channels, but I can't tell if their is more bandwidth or not.

Dogg..

Not yet. WKRC has had the remap bit set to "off" since a week ago, Friday. Some boxes (such as my Zenith) won't notice that until they do a rescan. I don't think any changes have been made since midnight, when WH was scheduled to end. I'd bet that the 12-1 bit gets reset when the encoder gets reprogrammed.

Doc

I am getting HD signal from TW and channel 9, however the audio is popping loudly and you can not make out a single word. Any one else seeing this either OTA or from TW?

Could tell WCPO changed something, this morning and fully expected we'd see HD back, tonight (it's been missing for several days). But it looks like they didn't get the audio set up correctly. Better luck tomorrow, I guess <g>. BTW, it's the same OTA. But it's a local issue. WDTN-DT is fine. PS..it's someone else's turn to call <g>.

WCPO has working HD and Sound on 9.01 when I was surfing through. Called WXIX and the guy I talked to knew about the Weirdscreen thing, but it looks like communications are not very well, still very skinny. No 5.1 on WCPO yet, hopefully coming soon. Watching Dayton Fox instead tonite, are they broadcasting at 720p now?

JY Dogg --

Might have something to do with the upgrade of master control Doc mentioned earlier, as They're usually(just about allways really) pretty good about fixing it when you call.BTW, I did notice WXIX-DT was off air earlier this afternoon.

Yes, WRGT-DT, Fox Dayton is sending 720p on 30-1. Native Resolution of Fox programming as sent by Fox to its digital affiliates (including Fox WS from WRGT-DT or WXIX-DT) is 480i anamorphic, until Fox starts doing HD(at 720p) later this year -- So, everything on 30-1 from WRGT-DT is upconverted to 720p currently, as WXIX-DT(currently) upconverts everything to 1080i for broadcast.

WKRC-DT is now at 19MB/s for the main (and only) channel and the remap bit in the PSIP is back on. Detail in "2 1/2 Men" better than on WHIO-DT. Of course, the real proof will be with this weekend's golf and this fall's football <g>. GOOD JOB WRKC!!

Dogg.. don't know what number you called, but 513-421-0119 followed by "Will you please notify the control room to fix the aspect ratio on the digital transmitter" always gets it done for me.

Doc

Doc
That was the number I called and the guy that I talked to knew what I was talking about, but it never got fixed. How did u check the bit rateof WKRC? Do you have PC card?

Originally posted by JunkyardDogg
Do you have PC card? I have good "sources."

At 15mb/s from WKRC-DT, I "used to" notice even fast action in CSI caused problems with compression artifacts(as is still the case with WHIO-DT) --- But Not tonight! It really Looks great! (granted however, I am watching on my smaller display tonight).

Originally posted by DrDon
Detail in "2 1/2 Men" better than on WHIO-DT. Of course, the real proof will be with this weekend's golf and this fall's football <g>. GOOD JOB WRKC!!
Doc

I concur on all. Even on the relatively small HD display I'm currently watching(26" 16x9 Direct View - "self-calibrated") I am a bit surprised at the difference in detail I seem to be seeing between WKRC-DT and WHIO-DT tonight during CSI. For some odd reason I'm remembering what HD from WCET-DT Looked like those first couple of months when they were giving PBS HD Demo loop everything ...

I know it probably was a big money loser for them doing the "big" HD productions of WEBN fireworks last few years, but I'd love to see it in HD from WKRC-DT again this year as well(or even a playback of previous year's shows) ... Especially given the "screen door" effects we saw during during especially "active" portions of the show the past couple of years ....

Might just be me, but, concerning whatever else they might have done besides increasing bitrate --- I think the upconverted stuff looks better too. Gonna be fun to compare again between WBNS-DT+WKRC-DT during bandwidth demanding source material as I've been able to do in the past when band conditions were good enough ... WBNS-DT was the clear winner in PQ(due to the compression artifacts) during SEC/NFL HD football this year, but the way CSI looks tonight, I wouldn't be surprised if WKRC-DT ends up looking better.

Anyhow --- Great Job WKRC! Kudos, Kudos, and more Kudos to WKRC Engineering folks, and whomever is responsible for the current PQ ...

-----------------------

And on another note -- Kudos for WCPO-DT for getting ABC HD(with Audio) back up and running -- At least currently and sounds like for past couple of days ...

I am glad you all are happy with the work I am doing on the WKRC-DT PQ and such. I am trying to make as many improvements as I can and as quickly as I can. We will stay at 19Mbs for now. There are no current plans to reduce the rate.

Thanks for the kudo's. I do appreciate it.

Yup, glad you are making improvments, now if we can just get 5.1 audio :). I am sure there is more involved than just flipping a switch.

Why are the fireworks not going to be in HD this year? Is the cost too great? I really enjoyed watching them from home in HD last year.

Take care.

Just FYI tonight on INHD2 at 10:00 PM Nike Training Camp will be on and their focus tonight is on our very own Cincinnati Bearcats and the great Bob Huggins. Just thought you might like to know we get the chance to watch our Bearcats in HDTV. Here is the synopsis:

Nike Training Camp #6 (Coach B. Huggins)

The animated Bob Huggins has built a perennial basketball powerhouse at Cincinnati. With more than 350 victories, Huggins is the winningest coach in Cincinnati history and ranks among the top 10 nationally in winning percentage among active coaches.

Does anyone else have problems with the sound coming from WKRC ? I'm using Dolby PLII on my receiver but I only get sound on my left main speaker. No sound from the center at all. This only happens on WKRC. All other channels work fine which makes me think it's the station and not my setup.

-Marc

Marc,

After reading your message I checked just around 8pm tonight real quick(It was just before they switched to network though), (using PLII to "feed" a 5.1 setup) and, at that time at least all audio channels from WKRC-DT seemed fine here. The HD setup I've been using the most lately is just analog Stereo 2 channel audio, which has been fine from WKRC-DT when I've been watching.

Nothing strange here, either. Center and all 4 surrounds functioning as I would expect them to. My receiver decodes WKRC-DT's audio very well. You'd have to look at the display to see it's not 5.1.

Only thing I've noticed this week is some pulsing of the character-generated graphics during the golf coverage. Very minor.

Speaking of the golf, the picture on the HD shots was outstanding and the cicada noise in the Pro Logic was hysterical if nothing else. Sounded like they were playing golf on some other planet.

Doc

There is a audio problem with the Left Channel. We will be working on it tomorrow. I have also seen the flicker in the graphics. Haven't figured that one out yet but I will be looking into it.

Weasel

Weasel..
Figured you saw that. But now you have me checking MY audio hookups since I didn't really notice anything. Hmmm.

Doc

FYI -- For those that don't subscribe to Dayton Thread --- It's been reported here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3902158#post3902158

That WPTO-DT 28 (ThinkDTV14) should be on the air this weekend.

Originally posted by WebHopperWeasel
There is a audio problem with the Left Channel. We will be working on it tomorrow. I have also seen the flicker in the graphics. Haven't figured that one out yet but I will be looking into it.

Weasel Not sure if it had anything to do with this but I'm happy to say that the problem is now fixed :)

-MarcW

Here are my results from AntennaWeb... I am just now installing my set up and will be purchasing an OTA receiver this weekend.

My question... Can I get away w/ indoor antenna w/ these results? Thanks in advance!!


* yellow - uhf WXIX-DT 19.1 FOX Newport KY 31° 5.7 29
* yellow - uhf WLWT-DT 5.1 NBC Cincinnati OH 41° 6.5 35
* yellow - uhf WKRC-DT 12.1 CBS Cincinnati OH 51° 6.8 31
* yellow - vhf WCPO-DT 9.1 ABC Cincinnati OH 49° 7.4 10
* yellow - uhf WCVN-DT 54.1 PBS Covington KY 109° 4.9 24
* green - uhf WSTR-DT 64.1 WB CINCINNATI OH 25° 11.2 33
* red - uhf WCET-DT 48.1 PBS Cincinnati OH 41° 6.5 34

Probably, with the exception of WSTR, which operates on much lower power, if memory serves. You might have to move your Silver Sensor, rabbit ears or whatever you go with to pick up each station. Of course, an outdoor antenna is always better <g>. Just keep receipts so you can return anything that doesn't work. A lot depends on where you are. It's easier if you're not down in a valley.

Folks - apologies if this has been hased and I missed the thread. But, have seen in another thread where FOX is upgrading their stations to HD and curious if anyone here is aware if a) FOX Cincinnati has plans b) expected timeframe?

TIA -

Yes, they have plans. But they were (and still are) in the midst of a control room upgrade when the splicer team was in Dayton. We're speculating that's why they've been passed over.

You should write them, if you haven't, and tell them you're looking forward to HD in the fall. Don't mention AVS. Just do it. Use the feedback form and Choose the General Manager as the recipient. Judging from how long they've stayed in Weirdscreen mode, lately, I'm still the only one who calls.

Doc

Doc
You're not the only one who calls! WXIX people are stupid, so I now watch Dayton because it is always in widescreen.

Dogg..

Wouldn't call them stupid. They usually DO fix it when I call. But, to them, there are only 3 or 4 people watching, so it's not worth putting a DT monitor in the control room or somewhere it can be seen. Hopefully, the control room remodel will include a monitor. If it doesn't, I'll go BUY them one <g>. I do wish I could lock on to 30-1, but I have to shoot right through 19's tower to do that. And with them on 29, I don't see it happening unless they start pumpin' gigawatts!

Doc

Got a reply from the wxix chief engineer saying they will be widscreen HDTV in September and they expect to be on TW in digital then also.

Originally posted by rcweiss
Got a reply from the wxix chief engineer saying they will be widscreen HDTV in September and they expect to be on TW in digital then also.


Woo hoo!!! Just in time for the NFL schedule to begin...let's hope they make both of those happen

Originally posted by CincySaint
Woo hoo!!! Just in time for the NFL schedule to begin...let's hope they make both of those happen

I'll second that "Woo hoo!!!" - great news, and thanks the the feedback folks -

Just an update.

I decided to order the HD UPgrade from DirecTV. It includes the installation of new satellite and an OTA antenna.

Has anyone else in the area gone this route? If so, are you happy with the results and equipment? They are scheduled to come out this Friday.

Thanks!

jspicoli,

I've had Direct TV HD for a few years now, with a Hughes E86 receiver. Its nice. Just make sure the installer does a clean job in terms of wiring from the dish to your house. Look over their wiring work and insist that sufficient brackets are used so as not to have ugly wires hanging around. Also plan ahead now for any additional receivers you might have or want in other rooms. You might need to sweet talk the installer or pay a bit extra for wiring other rooms. My only big drawback to all this is the high cost if you want to record in HD. There is a DirectTIVO (more details in this thread), but to me it costs too much right now. DTV actually just severed their relationship with TIVO so they will be doing PVR themselves soon. I'm actually considering dropping DTV for Insight's HD PVR, the only thing preventing me from doing that is NFL Sunday Ticket. Its a dilemma. And keep in mind the small print, you are committing to another year when you get the HD system. If you've been a long-time subscriber (2+ years) you can often talk to a rep (or a rep's manager) to get that waived.

...so it doesn't come with any HD box, then? I didn't know they were offering any HD equipment at all, yet? The dish, ant. & install is a good deal I guess but not a whole lot of give-away relative to other promos...i.e. I got some $350 credit off of my HDTivo box but already had the rest of the equipment in place...which Blue Grass put in a while ago (sat c kit & 3rd lnb) & I hope you get better installers than I did...

ChrisDow.... Yes.. It comes w/ the HD Receiver which also supports OTA signals.... Sorry left that one out...

Originally posted by ItzMe

the only thing preventing me from doing that is NFL Sunday Ticket.

You can do both....

I have DTV with just Sunday Ticket and TWC for HD, etc.

Originally posted by CincySaint
You can do both....

I have DTV with just Sunday Ticket and TWC for HD, etc. Other threads indicate that D* doesn't do Sunday Ticket a la carte, anymore. New subs have to have a minimum of Total Choice. Those of us who have had it all along are grandfathered, it appears.

Hmm, Sunday Ticket a la carte would've been great! Darn!

FYI: WKRC-DT is trying out a 16:9 stretch during 4:3 programming. Live with it a while, then feel free to post your thoughts. I usually stretch 4:3, anyway to avoid burnout, so I lean toward the "like it" side. Upconverters will be getting some upgrades, soon, too. I'll do my best to keep you posted.

Doc

Sorry Doc, I don't have to wait -- I can tell you what I think right now.

I don't like the stretch they are doing, in fact I can't stand it. It's Weirdscreen to me, just a little different version. I'll watch the analog instead of that during non-HD programming.

I think correct aspect ratio should ALLWAYS be sent by the station involved at ALL TIMES -- with an exception given the circumstances involved where WRGT-DT+Fox Widescreen is concerned presently as they have it "set" for proper AR for Fox/Fox WS on 30-1, with 30-2 SD subchannel set properly for "normal" 4x3 video(same video as the analog station is using).

If the user wants to stretch, or crop/zoom, then they can do so(assuming they have the appropriate equipment, many receivers will allow stretch, or "crop/zoom" if output at 480i). I have one display(an integrated set) that I can't do ANYTHING at all if a 16x9 ATSC format is sent, and I watch 4x3 from WKRC-DT on it AS 4x3, but there is no way I'm watching WKRC-DT during Non-HD programming the way 4x3 video is being sent presently.

I wouldn't mind grey bars, though. Another thing that would work would be if they setup a SD subchannel using 480i/p 4x3 ATSC format as long as it didn't effect HD quality(I.e. increase compression artifacts), and I don't see how it wouldn't ..... If If was "crop/zoom" to 16x9, I could stand it a little more(but not really), perhaps more than having "fat wide people" as is the case presently -- But I still wouldn't like it ....

Update: Really -- I think the BEST way to handle it would be like KET/WCVN-DT does on KET4 -- Switch ATSC formats to match the AR of the source programming -- i.e. in their case .. They use 4x3 480i for CPB/Annenburg channel, and 720p(16x9 of course) for PBS HD channel. Of course, I don't know of anywhere else that does that besides KET, and it would seem that would also get a little "complicated" during local commercial breaks, although I wouldn't think it would be necessary to switch to 480i 4x3 during network ad breaks ..

I'd have to concur with Jeff; the braodcaster should send an unaltered picture. I swapped Mits models just so I could stretch HD material; but that doesn't stop me from occassionally watching 4:3 with black bars. It would be nice to get grey bars, but I'm sure others would complain. There are times when I zoom instead of stretch as well, especially during sports -- a stretched source would kill that.

I wouldn't encourage a sub-channel to solve this; one of them was doing this earlier and it affected their HD.

I think the stretch is much better than creating a subchannel, or downgrading to 720p and creating the additional channel. I can't stretch out a 1080I or 720p signal, but I do like black bars over the stretch. We can't have another channel that sucks up bandwidth. If the stretch is to stay, it would be OK, it looks good.

Originally posted by JunkyardDogg
I do like black bars over the stretch.


So do I. So it seems we are actually in agreement here. I have never WATCHED and I will NEVER watch distorted pictures, even though I can press a button on my remote+do it(stretch or crop/zoom) when a SD NTSC signal, or a 4x3 ATSC screen format is sent, and on one setup here(but not the other) I can downconvert 1080i/720p to 480i and stretch/squeeze or "crop/zoom as well.

It is one thing if the video is being sent distorted on a temporary basis because of a "technical issue" -- but quite another to actually do it ON PURPOSE just to fill a 16x9 screen. That is insane IMO. If you are concerned about uneven phospor wear because you are using a 16x9 display and viewing a lot of 4x3 material on it, then find a way to stretch or crop/zoom it yourself, or maybe you should have purchased a 4x3 display+a STB that will let you "center cut" the 4x3 out of a 16x9 ATSC format so the 4x3 will fill the screen(I believe many, if not most STB's will let you do this if output at 480i/p).

Crop/zooming 4x3 to 16x9 to keep proper W:H ratio is another matter -- I don't think it is acceptable for stations to send video this way, but personally, If I'm not "seriously" watching something, I'll Crop/zoom SOME stuff, but If I'm "seriously" watching something, it has to be 4x3 if 4x3 is the programming's aspect ratio.

Originally posted by JunkyardDogg
We can't have another channel that sucks up bandwidth. If the stretch is to stay, it would be OK, it looks good.

You've GOT to be kidding. I can't imagine how anyone could think distorted pics look "good". There is NO WAY it looks good, as it is just plain WRONG. The only way it looks good is if I "squeeze it" to proper aspect ratio, which I CAN do with ONE(but not the other) of my STB's here(If I downconvert to 480i), along with squeezing in grey bars on the sides w/my display -- It is very inconvient to do that though, and it is easier just to watch the analog channel during non-HD programming. They do have some ways to do non-linear stretches which work a little better -- but I wouldn't put up with those either - 4x3 programming is 4x3, and it should be sent as 4x3 and that is all there is to it.

And, I think you misunderstand. I'm not advocating a SD subchannel -- as, in any event, among other things it would be a WASTE of bandwidth to run the SAME programming on it. I was merely bringing up things which would (IMO) be BETTER than sending distorted pics. As I noted before, (IMO) the BEST solution IMO would be if stations would switch ATSC formats to match the source programming(as KET does on KET4) -- The next best solution is what WKRC HAD been doing(ever since I've been watching them in 2001) up until yesterday - Black(or grey) bars on the sides of 4x3 programming sent in its proper aspect ratio.

Did you get the $99 deal from Directv?

thanks

jim

Originally posted by jspicoli
Just an update.

I decided to order the HD UPgrade from DirecTV. It includes the installation of new satellite and an OTA antenna.

Has anyone else in the area gone this route? If so, are you happy with the results and equipment? They are scheduled to come out this Friday.

Thanks!

Jim,

They wouldn't give me the $99 deal because it had expired a while back. But they did give me $150 credit off the current $349 deal. I went ahead and paid $50 more to let them install the OTA at the same time. So, I will get the new Satellite, HD Reciever, OTA Antenna installed for $249 + tax, etc... I hope the antenna is outside getting all the channels fine. I hope he doesn't just hook up rabbit ears to the set.. ;-)

The best thing for WKRC-DT is to go back to the regular 4x3 aspect ratio. Doc thanks for showing us how the stretch looks, but it seems like most of us like the 4x3. There is a disagreement in the second option, between stretch or creating another channel. Just let us know how much longer the stretch is going to last.

Dogg..

Soon as I find out, I'll let you know. Personally, I'm more interested in the upconverter upgrades. I have my fingers crossed that gray bars are part of that upgrade. Although, the ad man in me would rather see corporate logos in the space. Some $$ for the TV station for screen space that's just going to be black or gray otherwise. <g>.

Dpc

Perhaps some good - or at least "hopeful" news : I don't know if WSTR-DT will end up being one of the"stragglers" as mentioned -- but, looks like Sinclair(WSTR is Sinclair O&O) plans to have almost all of its stations (except UPN affiliates) doing HD by September --See first portion of following post :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3933320#post3933320

I can see a difference since the upconverter has been installed. It looks clear and seems to help out the non-widescreen material very well. Is 5.1 in the future at WKRC? Has anyone heard if WCPO is going to have 5.1 like they said any time soon? WSTR would be great if it could go HD by fall, Smallville is an awesome show! Also, any news on the install at WXIX and the tower work to add WPTO soon?

Originally posted by JunkyardDogg
The best thing for WKRC-DT is to go back to the regular 4x3 aspect ratio. Doc thanks for showing us how the stretch looks, but it seems like most of us like the 4x3. There is a disagreement in the second option, between stretch or creating another channel. Just let us know how much longer the stretch is going to last.

For now the stretch is over. There has been a good bit of discussion on it here and for now it will no longer be stretched. I don't think creating another channel will be considered since the higher bandwidth will allow for better picture quality and that it seems is the biggest concern. Thanks for everyone's input and comments.

Has anyone else noticed how TNT-HD is doing there HD upconverts? It is stretched from the middle outwards. So the middle has no distortion and it gets more distorted on the ends. I don't mind the way they do it personally but alot of people don't appear to like it. ESPN-HD also did they same in the past and people complained so much they stopped doing it. Looks worse on sports broadcasts though.

Dogg,

I don't think we have anything new that hasn't already been reported, but Doc/WH Weasel might know more.

I haven't seen WPTO-DT on air as of yet --- One of their people reported last week on Dayton Thread that they had planned on being up last weekend, so I assume they've run into some add'l difficulties.


I'm just hoping either WSTR-DT or WBDT-DT(WB Dayton) Will have WB HD sometime "soon", especially as WB is going to send LOTR trilogy in HD over the next few years, starting with FOTR This fall(around Thanksgiving if I recall correctly). I do occasionally pull in WWHO-DT (Near Circleville - Just South of Columbus), which has BOTH WB+UPN HD ---Just Enough to have seen a bit of "Everwood" in HD on one occasion last year, and a bit of "Gilmore Girls" in HD last night and one of the HDone movies which WKRC-DT missed ... I'm almost ready to put up a 250 Foot tower so I can get them all the time ;)

Originally posted by WebHopperWeasel
For now the stretch is over. There has been a good bit of discussion on it here and for now it will no longer be stretched. I don't think creating another channel will be considered since the higher bandwidth will allow for better picture quality and that it seems is the biggest concern.


All great news :) Thanks for listening. I hope I wasn't too "colorful" with my comments, and I certianly didn't mean anything "personally" -- but I really feel strongly about this issue. I understand the feelings of those who have "burn-in" concerns, but I strongly feel programming should be sent in correct aspect ratio(no stretching of any kind), as some of us have equipment that won't let you alter it on the viewer end(not that "stretching/zooming should be required on the user end just to see it "correctly"), and therefore, if a station sends it "wrong", there's nothing we can do if we want to see it as it was intended to be seen ....

Originally posted by WebHopperWeasel

It is stretched from the middle outwards. So the middle has no distortion and it gets more distorted on the ends.

This is an example of the the "non-linear" stretching I referred to earlier. One of my displays(Samsung TXN model) has a "panarama" mode that lets you do this with 4x3 programming -- I don't use it/like it, but it does keep the center in proper aspect ratio.

There is an excellent explanation of this, as well as some examples of various ways to "stretch" 4x3 to fit 16x9 at the following page:

http://www.wideopenwest.com/~trbarry/Displaying_4x3_on_16x9.htm

-------------------------------------------
HD-One Movies:

Oh ... I couldn't find HD-one ST:III HD airing last weekend On WKRC-DT And so, I was wondering what was going on with the HD-one movie schedule?

Thanks,

The HD-One Movies should air as scheduled. There was a problem with the sat feed during the taping for the last one and so it was not shown. Expect that the others will show as scheduled.

I need to know which OTA HD Rcvr is the best. Most informative. Picture quality is not as big of a issue as information about the signal quality, bandwidth, etc

So give me some options so I can get one purchased soon. (Don and Jeff)

Thanks for the info on HD-one.

Originally posted by WebHopperWeasel
I need to know which OTA HD Rcvr is the best. Most informative. Picture quality is not as big of a issue as information about the signal quality, bandwidth, etc


For that sort of info, I think some of the PC card DTV receivers offer the best info, as Unfortunetly, there are no OTA STB's I know of that give you good information on any of those things -- a "signal quality meter" with a scale of 1-100, or a bar scale of "Bad to Good" is about as good as they get.

It just gives me a "signal quality reading" and no other real info concerning the signal or video resolution/bandwidth used or video resolution being sent/etc -- but, Where RF performance is concerned, I do like my Zenith HDV420 -- While it does support channel remapping via PSIP, it does not however support station ID via PSIP, or Off air guides via PSIP -- wheareas MOST STB's these days do.

I think if I was buying a OTA, ATSC only STB now(which has it's advantages over a box with both ATSC+NTSC tuners, as NTSC signals can sometimes "get in the way" if the box locks on a NTSC signal+"decides" that's what you want to see on that channel) -- I'd probably be looking at the LG3100a, or the RCA ATSC11 -- Or, I might just look for the cheapest thing I could find -- Maybe the Sylvania Box, From what I've heard -- I don't think I'd mess with the USDTV receiver they've got at Walmart.

Where data bandwidth is concerned, for accurate info I think you would really need a transport stream analyzer -- but, I think it can be done to some extent via software that analyzes a MPEG2 stream used with with PC card DTV receiver.

One of the best receivers I know of that gives good information concerning the signal quality (error rate, SNR/etc), as well as good info on PSIP info(it doesn't support Off-air program guides via PSIP, however)+video resolutions being sent by the station would be the Hauppage WINTV-D PC card -- It unfortunetly does not output HD, however -- but I think they have a HD version (WINTV-HD perhaps) that does output HD, I think with component, or possibly RGB out).

About 2/3~3/4 way down at the following page(in the section entitled "DXing With the Hauppauge WinTV-D Computer Card
Updated 06/07/03"), there is a good write-up on the WINTV-D card, including screen shots of its diagnostic tools/etc.

http://www.dxfm.com/Content/DTV_info.htm

After that section on this page, in the "DTV Tuner shootout" section there is also info on side by side comparisons done(concerning RF performance mostly) with a number of OTA DTV receivers.

There is alsogood info that might give you an idea of what is out there+what you are dealing with feature+performance wise in Peter Putnam's reviews of quite a number of receivers(mostly older models though), which can be found scattered about this page :

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/Pages/archive.html

Hope this helps -- I think you'll enjoy OTA HD/DTV when you do pick up something -- especially so given a decent, outdoor setup, as you should be able to easily pull in both Dayton+Cincinnati stations.

Noticed no hd from WKRC-DT for "Thirteen Days" and it looks like WCPO-DT's HD receiving gear (as we say in the industry) "took a dump" last night. WCET-DT wasn't passing HD for Fleetwood Mac, either. When it rains, it pours. From what I can tell, WCVN-DT had the ONLY OTA HD in town, Saturday night.

Hey Doc -- Congrats on 3K.

I noticed that too. Was watching "Thirteen Days" in HD on WHIO-DT Dayton last night, and all was well with HD from the other Dayton stations last night as well. But, flipped over to the Cincy stations a couple of times and it seemed like Cincy HD went back in time about 3+ years for a Sat night, except for KET. Maybe Murphy's running around loose again.

HD was missing from KET4 Thur/Fri night, except for a couple frames of video prior to 11pm Thur, and after 11pm (Soundstage went to almost 11:30 on Thur) when they fixed it ... Looked like WPTD-DT Dayton's HD encoder was spitting out junk for video Thurs. night, so out of the 3 current Local PBS affiliates, there was just WCET-HD on thur night for the first airing of Fleetwood Mac HD ...WPTD-DT got that fixed sometime before "Smarttravels" on Friday ...

Looked like same problem on WCET-DT last night as we've seen oftentimes before, although its been a while that I've noticed -- They didn't quite get switched "out" of "SD Mode" at 7pm -- 48-4+48-5 still there as "placeholders", but blank screen and 48-1 wasn't there at all.

I also noticed WKRC/WKRC-DT aired this month's HD-One movie ST:III yesterday afternoon -- SD only of course. Usually, the SD airings of HD-one on KRC have been 2AM Sunday morning. Looking forward to seeing HD "Raiders of Lost ark"(to See if it looks as good as it did when ABC aired it in HD and OAR in 2002) next month + ST:IV in August ....

...not to bring up much-less-IMPORTANT programming but was anyone else able to get the US Open over the weekend in HD? -what about surrounding areas? I hope WLWT-DT 35 (5-1) - NBC HD will get it together for the Olympics...won't they?

I don't think the U.S. Open was offered in HD. CBS has 13 PGA events in HD because it's easier to sell an HD co-sponsorship (to pay for the additional costs of HD coverage) when you have a chain of events (such as the SEC games in the fall, Triple Crown horse races). Tougher to find a co-sponsor for just one event unless it's huge (Olympics, Daytona) or completely paid for by the event sponsor (Masters).

Doc

I was very disappointed the US Open was not in HD this past weekend. I am hoping later this year will be a break-out year in HD programming. I can only watch so much of Jay Leno and Yellow Stone National Park on Discovery...

Let's see what is currently scheduled for HD or Fox WS/PBS WS for this week from the broadcast nets+Cincinnati stations :

NBC HD from WLWT-DT 35 (5-1) Cincinnati :

Mon:
11:34 PM THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH JAY LENO 2732 - KIERA KNIGHTLEY, DAN ABRAMS, AVRIL LAVIGNE

Tue:
10:00 PM LAW & ORDER: SPECIAL VICTIMS UNIT RITUAL
11:34 PM THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH JAY LENO 2733 - TOBEY MAGUIRE, ROCKY LaPORTE, MAROON 5

Wed:
9:00 PM LAW & ORDER BOUNTY
10:00 PM LAW & ORDER EVIL BREEDS
11:34 PM THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH JAY LENO 2734 - KEENAN IVORY WAYANS

Thur.
8:32 PM COME TO PAPA - THE CRUSH
9:59 PM ER - THE STUDENT
11:34 PM THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH JAY LENO 2735 - WILL FERRELL, UNCLE KRACKER

Fri.
10:00 PM LAS VEGAS DIE FAST DIE FURIOUS
11:34 PM THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH JAY LENO 2736

Sun :
9:00 PM LAW & ORDER: CRIMINAL INTENT MIS-LABELED
10:00 PM CROSSING JORDAN 'TIL DEATH DO US PART

--------------------------------------------------------

ABC HD from WCPO-DT 10 (9-1) Cincinnati

Mon. :
8pm My Wife and Kids
8:30pm George Lopez
9pm According to Jim
9:30pm Hope & Faith

Tue:
8pm 8 Simple Rules
8:30pm I'm with Her
9pm According to Jim
9:30pm Less Than Perfect

Wed:
8pm My Wife and Kids
9pm The Drew Carey Show
9:30pm The Drew Carey Show

Thur:
9pm Kingdom Hospital

Fri : (Note: WCPO-DT has a non-network Movie currently sceheduled for 8~10pm Fri)(likely SD) - But, with a decent antenna setup, unless you are way south of the river you can also likely get this from WDTN-DT, ABC Dayton if you wish ...

8pm George Lopez
8:30pm Married to the Kellys
9pm Hope & Faith
9:30pm Life with Bonnie

Sat:
8pm Saturday Night at the Movies: Artificial Intelligence: AI

------------------------------------------------

CBS HD - from WKRC-DT Cincinnati 31 (12-1)

Mon:
8pm - STILL STANDING -"Still Our Kids"
8:30pm -YES, DEAR - "Big Jimmy Babysits"
9pm - EVERYBODY LOVES RAYMOND - "Golf For It"
9:30pm - TWO AND A HALF MEN -"Round One to the Hot Crazy Chick"
10pm - CSI: MIAMI - "Innocent"

Wed:
9pm - THE KING OF QUEENS - "Multiple Plots"
9:30pm - STILL STANDING - "Still Got It"

Thur:
8pm- WITHOUT A TRACE -"The Source"
9pm - CSI: "Getting Off"
10pm - "WITHOUT A TRACE"

Fri:
8pm: JOAN OF ARCADIA - "Requiem for a Third Grade Ashtray"
9pm : JAG - "Hard Time"

Sat:
8pm: THE KING OF QUEENS - "Secret Garden"
8:30pm - "KEEPING THE FAITH" (Movie)

Sun:
8pm: COLD CASE
"Disco Inferno"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

PBS HD Channel (HD or upconverted SD widescreen programming) -from - WCET-DT 34 (48-1) Cincinnati , WCVN-DT 24 (54-4 - KET4) Covington,KY. Note: WCET-DT runs PBS HD channel 7-11pm nightly, WCVN-DT runs PBS HD channel on KET4 8-11pm M-Sat, 7-11pm Sun. WPTD-DT Dayton runs PBS HD 6pm~6am nightly, I did not include their 6~7pm or 11pm~6am schedule here in the interest of keeping this short ;)

Monday, June 21, 2004
7:00 PM DESERT SPEAKS ROYAL ROAD ACROSS THE FRONTIER
7:30 PM SMART TRAVELS - EUROPE MEDIEVAL EUROPE
8:00 PM GREAT PERFORMANCESTCHAIKOVSKY SYMPHONY NO. 4
9:00 PM HISTORY DETECTIVES CIVIL WAR-ERA SUBMARINE/RED CLOUD'S
10:00 PM NATURE TRIUMPH OF LIFE: "THE ETERNAL ARMS

Tuesday, June 22, 2004
7:00 PM DESERT SPEAKS ROYAL ROAD ACROSS THE FRONTIER
7:30 PM SMART TRAVELS - EUROPE MEDIEVAL EUROPE
8:00 PM NOVA VOLCANO ABOVE THE CLOUDS
9:00 PM SOUNDSTAGE FLEETWOOD MAC
10:00 PM NATURE TRIUMPH OF LIFE: "THE ETERNAL ARMS

Wednesday, June 23, 2004
7:00 PM DESERT SPEAKS ROYAL ROAD ACROSS THE FRONTIER
7:30 PM SMART TRAVELS - EUROPE MEDIEVAL EUROPE
8:00 PM AMERICAN MASTERS HANK WILLIAMS: HONKY TONK BLUES
9:00 PM GREAT PERFORMANCES TCHAIKOVSKY SYMPHONY NO. 4
10:00 PM AYERS ROCK, A NAKED PLANET SPECIAL

Thursday, June 24, 2004
7:00 PM DESERT SPEAKS ROYAL ROAD ACROSS THE FRONTIER
7:30 PM SMART TRAVELS - EUROPE MEDIEVAL EUROPE
8:00 PM AMERICAN FAMILY - JOURNEY OF DREAMS VICTORY
9:00 PM HISTORY DETECTIVES CIVIL WAR-ERA SUBMARINE/RED CLOUD'S
10:00 PM SOUNDSTAGE SHERYL CROW - PART 1

Friday, June 25, 2004
7:00 PM DESERT SPEAKSROYAL ROAD ACROSS THE FRONTIER
7:30 PM SMART TRAVELS - EUROPEMEDIEVAL EUROPE
8:00 PM SOUNDSTAGE SHERYL CROW - PART 1
9:00 PM GREAT PERFORMANCES TCHAIKOVSKY SYMPHONY NO. 4
10:00 PM NATURE TRIUMPH OF LIFE: "THE ETERNAL ARMS"

Saturday, June 26, 2004
7:00 PM DESERT SPEAKS ROYAL ROAD TO THE FINAL OUTPOST
7:30 PM SMART TRAVELS - EUROPE FOUR GREAT CITIES OF EUROPE
8:00 PM NATURE TRIUMPH OF LIFE: "THE ETERNAL ARMS
9:00 PM - AMERICAN FAMILY - JOURNEY OF DREAMS
10:00 PM - AYERS ROCK, A NAKED PLANET SPECIAL

Sun., June 27
7:00 PM AMERICAN FAMILY - JOURNEY OF DREAMS THE CHILD
8:00 PM NATURE TRIUMPH OF LIFE: "WINNING TEAMS"
9:00 PM SOUNDSTAGE SHERYL CROW - PART 1
10:00 PM AMERICAN FAMILY - JOURNEY OF DREAMS THE CHILD
------------------------------------------------

Fox Widescreen from WXIX-DT 29 (19-1) Cincinnati - Currently upconverted to 1080i at the station. Yes I know, it's not HD Quite yet but, nevertheless it looks quite good (~480p so called "anamorphic" DVD quality)

Sunday 6/20
10am Fox News Sunday
1pm NASCAR DHL 400
7:30pm Oliver Beene
8:30pm Arrested Development
9pm Malcom in the Middle
9:30pm Quintuplets

Monday :
8pm North Shore
9pm Casino

Tue:
8pm Bernie Mac Show
8:30pm Method&Red
9pm The Jury

Wed:
8:30pm Quintuplets
9:30pm Method & Red

Thur:
8pm North Shore
9pm True Calling

Fri:
8pm Bernie Mac
8:30pm Method&Red
9pm The Jury

-----------------------------------

WB & UPN HD - Unfortunetly, Niether Cincinnati or Dayton WB digital affiliates currently pass through WB HD, although their digital stations have been on the air since Dec 02(WSTR-DT 33(64-1))~Feb 03(WBDT-DT 18(26-1)). WB Offers shows such as "Everwood", "Reba", "Smallville" and "Gilmore Girls", and some movies in HD. UPN Cincinnati (WBQC-CA 25) is a low power, Class A station, and Therefore doesn't have a DTV channel allocation from FCC. In '03-04, UPN offered "Enterprise", and Some Movies in HD.

----------------------------------------------------------

Now, whether or not you enjoy, or watch any of the above is agnostic. It's a bit thinner currently than what we are used to during Fall~Spring -- This should be expected, as it is Summer. Shows like American Dreams, West Wing, Alias, the Practice, NYPD Blue and O.C./24 which are in HD or Fox WS through the regular season aren't airing much of the time, if at all, presently.

But, nevertheless, There is still certianly plenty of HD being aired these days as compared to a couple of years ago, when you would be lucky to get a few hours of HD per week - Anywhere in the world -- HDnet/Sho-HD/HBO-HD was IT besides NBC/ABC/CBS/PBS HD+ Fox WS, the vast majority of that being from CBS. In fact, with a few exceptions, except for Reality TV, news shows and some sports, the vast majority of Network programming IS NOW offered in HD(or Fox WS) from the broadcast networks, as has been the case since Fall 2002.

As for sports/live HD productions -- quite a bit more expensive than SD. Not a lot of HD production equipment out there yet. Few viewers watching. HD/DTV viewers not counted in the ratings yet. If this were analog TV we were talking about, it would be about 1953, now. Nevertheless, it has been common over the past 2-3 years to get the Oscars, Superbowl(even in 99 -- Fox WS in 2002), some of the NCAA Tourney games, SEC football, MNF(1999+2003-04), Triple Crown, and beginning last year, NFL playoffs and regular season NFL games in HD or Fox WS(Regular season games which will evidently become a lot more common in HD this coming year), Masters+this year more HD Golf from CBS, etc/etc/etc/ In HD. NBC even aired some "surprise" HD Boxing on a weekend afternoon a month or two back.

As for the HD Olympics, If the HD coverage is anything like the fine job NBC/HDnet did for the 2002 Winter HD Olympics, I think you'll be pleased ...

For more details on currently available HD programming, see the AVS Forum Programming Sypnosis here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=164671

Great info. Awesome job Jeff

Nice job Jeff..

However, I would not classify it as PLENTY of programming. Maybe compared to a year ago...

Remember a while back when a service was first introduced. (I think it was called ONTV). Probably 20 years ago.. Prior to cable...

It was a little black box with a knob you turned ON to get 1 movie station and had a funky rooftop antenna. Everyone thought this was more than enough at it's time. I mean, you can't watch more than one show at one given time.

I guess I am spoiled with variety at any given time.

I know it is coming and mainstream will push it over the edge with more HD Sets entering households.

However, if I was forced to either 1) Keep HD w/ current programming for a year and give up all SD channels or 2) Give up HD and keep all channels in SD for a year.... I would chose 2.

GREAT POST, JEFF! ...a better post than the programming itself, IMO.

It IS a pretty weak selection now (mostly due to off-season). I still can't believe NBC/sponsors couldn't pony-up the $'s for the Open in HD -this is a big-event, COMMON!

You add the fact that ONLY ONE OTA station (and a the weakest-one) is outputting DD 5.1 which, to me, is about 50% of the attraction/impact of an HD program.

This is all the more reason th HDTivo box is a simple, perfect solution for grabbing & stockpiling the few good HD choices that are out there...

Jeff--

Thanks for the excellent post. It looks like the major prime time scripted shows are nearing 100% HD. Many but not all special events are coming in HD as well. There is a critical mass that needs to exist for the providers to get serious about the product and I believe we may be approaching that point. Huge price breaks are around the corner on flat screen technology as new factories come on line in China and Korea. When the "cool" TV's get down to the $1000-$2000 range, market acceptance will explode.

The real breaking point from a coverage standpoint will come once the new HD remote trucks are paid off and THAT cost comes down. Plus, some of the truck suppliers are not building all new trucks; it's cheaper to convert a standard-definition truck. Every converted SD truck means one more HD truck and one LESS SD truck.

The best news is the growth in the ad market. My clients are all well above projections and we're all pretty far down the food chain. If we're seeing more $$, then the big boys are, too. That could mean the $$ for HD buildouts that stalled after 9-11 could be flowing back in. I think we're seeing that with announcements from Fox and - more importantly - Sinclair.

Yes --- I think you hit the nail(s) right on the head, Doc - concerning the trucks and the ad revenue.

You might find this interesting --- Sinclair's Q1 '04 report :

http://www.sbgi.net/press/release_200456_68.shtml

One thing some people sometimes seem to forget ... Sinclair picked up quite a number of "bottom of the barrel"(or nearly so) stations in the mid-late 90's which may not have made it much longer otherwise. Those stations for the most part still have low ratings, and it will probably stay that way, but for the most part they do seem to be finding ways to make it work ...

Speaking of HD trucks ... Just ran across this article concerning new trucks for Fox NFL HD :

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/news/n_out_with_the_old.shtml

A short quote from the Article:

"The network had to ensure there would be a sufficient pool of HD trucks for the games. Industry-wide, there is a shortfall of HD trucks to meet the demand for remote HD productions in all sectors, especially sports and entertainment."

Not to change the direction of the current thread.. but does anyone use any of the directv high def receivers? I have one on order from them and wonder how the local OTA broadcasts integrate into the Directv guide?

thanks

jim

Hi Jim--

The OTA channels are included in the the channel guide along with all the program information you would expect.

Jim..

The DirecTV receivers use what's called DirecTV's "Advanced Program Guide." You put in a couple of zip codes and it will download and COMBINE the OTA guide with the Sat guide. For Cincinnati stations, it does a marveous job. You tend to end up with three listings for each station. The analog channel, DirecTV's "local channel" and the digital channel. Of course, you can erase some of those in custom guides.

The guide assumes PSIP remapping. So, if you plug in Dayton stations - depending on the receiver - the program guide will turn up for 22-1 (WKEF-DT) but you'll have to tune to 51-1 to get a picture.

Word of advice: Tune the box back to a Sat A channel before you knock off for the night. The APG info isn't fed on the other two birds and, if you miss enough of the incremental updates, the whole thing will wreck and you'll need to reboot. The boxes stay "tuned" to the last satellite you viewed, even when switched "off."

Anything else I can tell you, just ask. I have the otiginal Zenith box.

Doc

Great - thanks all - sounds like it will be just like it is for the standard locals

jim

...I haven't done much watching of PBS (48-1) but when I tried to 'HDTivo' the program "Soundstage - Fleetwood Mac" last nite, (at 8 or 9pm?) nothing was there?? Do they sign-off at 8 or something? -if so, then why is the programming guide still there? Would another PBS affiliate work? --and this is the best (only one w/5.1) OTA channel??:(

I believe WCETDT 48-1 has been off the air the last few days.

I tried watching that last night and I would get a quick flash of the concert then it would disappear...

WCET-DT usually activates 48-1 for HD programming and shuts down two of the subchannels. But that doesn't always happen. I didn't watch last night, but they didn't have 48-1 activated over the weekend. Since your TiVo gets the guide info from DirecTV's APG, it has no way of knowing the channel didn't come on. If you can pick them up, WCVN-DT runs PBS-HD on 54-4 and seems to be more consistent. If you're closer to Dayton, try WPTD-DT's HD channel, which is 16-6.

I don't know about the TiVo boxes, but some STBs won't recognize the PBS channel changes without a re-scan or a reboot.

Doc

Actually, WCET-DT, WCVN-DT and WPTD-DT ALL have DD 5.1 capability, although I haven't seen it happen very often from WCVN-DT/WPTD-DT - More from WCVN-DT than WPTD-DT -- I think they only do it when the programming is actually produced in DD 5.1 -- although I'm not sure if they "allways do it" even then, and I've only noticed it once last summer during a Soundstage from WPTD-DT -- Of course, one of their folks told us about it here too, though .... WDTN-DT, ABC(For now - They are switching to NBC affiliation in september) Dayton is the other station in the area that currently does DD 5.1. All Fox affiliates that Pass HD later this year will have DD 5.1, as with the Fox HD system the affiliate doesn't have to have DD 5.1 capability -- its passed through the Splicer at the affiliate (along with the HD) just as Fox sends it.

WPTD-DT doesn't drop subchannels like WCET does, for instance 16-6 is allways there+you allways get a lock on it, but it is just "blank" from 6am-6pm when they are sending programming on all their 4 other SD subchannels(16.2~5).

Anyway, PBS HD from WPTD-DT has really been plagued by compression artifacts last couple of nights -- much worse than usual, even though they had up just the "regular" 2 SD services alongside HD -- They occasionally "mess up" too and occasionally send THREE SD+1 HD service, and I've even seen 4SD+1 HD before from them --- and 3 SD+1 HD certianly looks bad, but still not as bad as it has the past couple of nights for some reason -- anything moves, and it has been just a mass of little blocks. Otherwise, Its been fine the last 5 days or so, but last Thrusday night their encoder did appear to be sending "junk" for video.

Very much a rarity -- but -- WCVN-DT 54-4 (KET4) has had some problems with PBS HD the last week as well ... Sat and Sun were fine, but there were problems thur/fri night, and maybe last night as well(I didn't check it, but there are some reports on Lou/Lex thread of problems from last couple of days). I talked to William via PM a couple days ago, and among other things that has him/them really busy down there, he said they are chasing a bug with their HD sat receiver.

It's not that WCET-DT is "off the air" -- They are on the air Daily from around 8~9am to 11pm(sometimes staying up "late" if the scheduled programming that started earlierruns past 11) -- As Doc mentioned, it has to do with how they switch between 4 Channel SD multicast mode (SD services on 48-2, 48-3, 48-4, 48-5 - 8am~7pm daily) and HD Mode(48-1 HD - 48-2+48-3 SD 7pm~11pm nightly).

FWIW Both my receivers handle the nightly subchannel changes from WCET just fine "automatically"(Even if I turn Channel remapping/PSIP off on DTC-100) -- As long as WCET does it right, that is. I think they've only done it right one night in the past 5 nights or so. Of course, when they are in 4 channel SD mode, since 48-1 doesn't show up there anyway, obviously Off air guides(and I assume EPG from the Sat) for 48-1 don't show up either until they activate it at 7pm. Makes it a little difficult to use the guide info If you're trying to look at the guide BEFORE 7pm, but then again, of course it really doesn't matter to me as I have the guide turned off on my only receiver that supports it anyway(DTC-100) for various reasons (few stations send guide info via PSIP, STT clock is wrong from many stations/etc).

The majority of the time when WCET "messes up" -- They're obviously trying to switch to HD mode at 7pm as "usual" but it's not quite working for some reason -- I notice when they mess up(as has been the case lately) when they are "supposed" to be in HD mode 48-1 just isn't there at all(as is the case from 8am-7pm daily when they are in SD mode), 48-2 and 48-3 are fine just as they are all the time(SD or HD "mode") and 48-4+48-5(which are there the rest of the day+just fine when they are in 4 channel SD mode) are "sort of" there as placeholders, but they are blank+get no lock ... When they "do it right" getting in HD mode, 48-4+48-5 disappear. This has been a pretty common problem we've seen from them ....

WOW...so much for "set-it and forget" then I guess. :) It's not reasonable IMO to have to check if the station is bradcasting when it's supposed to.

It's too bad cause these guys are good when it does come-in. I don't have much need for the rest of the sub-channels (-2, -3, -4, etc) - I just want my darn-content in HD! ...guess I'll try again for Cheryl Crow comin' up...

PS: I'm thinking of selling (or holding on to) my DTC-100. Does it do something special (in re: to sub-channel guide/reception) so I should hold on to it, you think? It's not worth a whole lot now anyway...

In general stations in our area do a great job, but at this stage with (H) DTV, we are still early in the game and "techincal difficulties" are just going to happen occasionally, more occasionally than you'll see with analog TV. It'll get better once the digital station becomes more important to them, and it will especially get better once the analogs are gone, and they'll have only ONE station to take care of instead of TWO.

I especially like DTC-100 as it lets you turn off the PSIP/Guide functions - No other receiver(besides PC card tuners) lets you do this. It hasn't happened very often, but if a station is sending "fouled up" PSIP info, with the PSIP stuff turned off (Turning off the "off air guides" function turns off User visable PSIP functions such as Channel remapping, STT PSIP clock/and OTA programming guides) it can work where another receiver might not.

Also -- Because it's a NTSC+ATSC tuner+the way it handles that -- I like the ability to turn off the PSIP stuff too, that way it lets me deselect the analog channels from the "profiles"(I.e. Channel surf list) list, which isn't the case otherwise. I also like that the Sat receiver is competely seperate from the OTA receiver, which is great for me as I don't use the Sat receiver at all. Might not be so great though if you like that being "integrated", with integrated EPG and the like.

Another plus is, It's also a common receiver that used as a "reference receiver" at many stations. I've also already heard on another thread from a engineer testing turning on the Broadcast Flag(as some syndicated providers are going to require that soon) that so far as he can tell, it doesn't cause the DTC any problems ...

--------------------------

Update 7:20pm -- Just checked and all is well currently with PBS HD from WCET-DT 48-1 tonight. Thanks WCET Folks :)

I need a spot check of KET4 please..

thanks
William

William,

All is well with HD+Tchaikovsky from KET 4/WCVN-DT at 21:24~21:33 on both receivers here.

It would sound better from Music Hall though -- hopefully we'll get a HD production from there someday ... ;-)

hey all.. one one question on the directv hi def receivers.. will I be able to pick up dayton stations as well - i realize that the guide may still be cincinnati - but there is nothing from directv's end that will stop me from tuning to the dayton stuff is there?

thanks again!

jim

OTA is OTA. Whatever signals your antenna can get the receiver will decode and display. I get Cincinnati and Dayton stations (but I've got quite a bit of antenna in the attic, too <G>). My receiver allows for two zip codes to be put in for the guide, so I have programming information for both markets. If I could spin the antenna around, I'd get Louisville, too.

thanks doc.. I was affraid that when I get the HD recevier set up it would force me into cincinnati locals only

That's only for the DirecTV local channel package (which I doubt you'll want, anyway). You can't get the Dayton locals via satellite, but anything your TV antenna will pull in, the receiver will decode. And the programming guide isn't tied to the access card, either. I can plug in Portland, Oregon's zip code if I like and it'll happily display a program guide for Portland stations. But the DirecTV portion of the receiver still "knows" I'm in Cincinnati.

Looks like WPTO-DT 28 has their Transmitter up -- At 7pm EDT, Getting a "full bore" 100% reading on the signal quality meter on 28 from the South --- However - there is no audio/video and neither receiver here will get a PSIP or audio lock ...

Anybody else getting them and actually SEE anything besides just a indication that the DT signal is there on 28?

Thanks,

Looks like nobody's programmed the encoder. Samsung T-151 gets plenty of signal - and it's digital - but it can't read the data. The Zenith won't lock on with a channel scan, either. However, it's had programming information (thanks to DirecTV's APG) for 14-2 thru 14-5 for some time. Tuning any of those placeholders shows a 95% signal. But, without the PSIP, the box won't tune it.

Getting 63 to 69 signal strength on my Samsung T160 on WPTO-DT in Huber Heights. Ch 28 from Columbus is obviously affected. I only get a marginal picture when precisely aimed at Columbus now.

Yeah. I don't know how long they've had a signal on the air today, but don't think it was long. I checked it this morning, and around noon or so I had antenna aimed at Columbus while "optimizing" my Coax stub filters a little(I'm knocking down 2+7+93.7FM, as the FM trap on the preamp doesn't quite do enough with that one!) and I did happen to flip analog tuner to 28 and was seeing a weak signal from WTTE 28 at that time, which I certianly wouldn't be able to see now! I'm guessing it will be a lot like WCET-DT/WOSU 34 here -- Still takes some tropo but WOSU has to be blasting in to get a generally nasty looking pic through WCET-DT's snow, or I see them occasionally much better when WCET-DT goes down every night.

I don't know how they are doing it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Encoder(s) for WPTO-DT were at ThinkTV studios in Dayton -- For instance -- They could send a ATSC compliant stream over STL -- I don't know, but if they did that I suppose in their case the PSIP generator could be either in Dayton or at the Transmitter site. I'm not sure, but I think I had heard they've had WPTO-DT services on Dayton TW cable for quite some time.

Anyhow -- Follows is Pic of what I'm getting from the "signal" on 28 off Zenith receiver from the south, DTC-100 won't even let me know its there, as it would have to get a lock first before it would show up on it's "antenna info"/Signal meter screen" :

Looks just like the thermometer on my Zenith. I'm maybe a skosh to the left of your signal. Of course, I've got mondo antenna pointed right at them. I got WXIX-DT when they were just running exciter.

Hmmmmm.. signal but no picture or PSIP. And they're on WHO'S tower? I rest my case <g>.

My SIR-T151 won't lock on, but if I set the channel to 28-0 and turn on the signal meter, I'm showing a strong steady signal at 7AM.

Clarke

OT, but quick questoin: have you applied the firmware upgrade to your 151? Got mine in the mail, this week, but haven't applied it, yet. Hoping it fixes the audio issue when WXIX-DT goes in and out of local breaks.

No. I just read about it on the AVS Forum the other day, but haven't sent for it yet. My unit is registered but I didn't receive a notice from Samsung. I assume we're talking about the broadcast flag upgrade.

Just found gold...

Apparently when the DirecTV installer setup my receiver, he did a scan for locals and manually removed the channels he thought were not HD... Basically removed all of WCET's and the WB digital channel... Just for kicks, I re-did the local scan and kept the channels. Sure enough Sheryl Crowe was in HD on WCET4 last night...

Finding new channels is kinda like finding money in an old pants pocket.. ;-)

Originally posted by DrDon
Looks like nobody's programmed the encoder. Samsung T-151 gets plenty of signal - and it's digital - but it can't read the data. The Zenith won't lock on with a channel scan, either. However, it's had programming information (thanks to DirecTV's APG) for 14-2 thru 14-5 for some time. Tuning any of those placeholders shows a 95% signal. But, without the PSIP, the box won't tune it.


I'm getting a strong signal at my location in Grant County KY. As of approx 11:30 AM. The channels are now mapped as follows 14-2 14-3 14-4 14-5 14-6 which is blank.

Noticed WPTO-DT was working correctly when I tuned in just after 11:30am. I'm getting - 14.2~14.5 SD services running presently, PSIP lock on 14.6 (HD subchannel -- Currently blank W/PSIP/Audio lock - Like WPTD-DT does it). See here for more info on the program services /Subchannels : http://www.thinktv.org/about/future.html

Woo hoo! ALL 15 DTV stations in SW Ohio with a Digital Channel Assignment(which is all the Full Service Stations) are NOW On the air :-) --- When I first started watching in 2001, there were 5 .... and Most in our area are running High power+HD ... THAT's some real Progress IMO -- It took DECADES for us to get that many analog stations .. Congrats to everyone at the stations+great work getting everything up and running.

3 Years ago, when I put up a 2nd antenna/feedline so I would no longer have to rotate between Cincinnati and Dayton(which I've been doing for ever pretty much) I had also thought about adding a single channel antenna w/jointenna for WPTO 14 so would no longer have to rotate for WPTO ... I never got around to messing with it -- but now I don't have to :) ---

Follows is 14.6 HD schedule for next couple of Days from their Website schedule - Looks like they are planning on doing some Time-shifting of some of the stuff that runs on PBS HD channel during the day -- which I think is a great Idea. Looks like I will finally get to see what Clifford+Jakers look like in HD ;) :

6/26/2004
6:00 PM
Smart Gardening

6:30 PM
Chefs A' Field

7:00 PM
American Experience

8:00 PM
Nature

9:00 PM
Great Performances

10:00 PM
Desert Speaks

10:30 PM
Tracks Ahead

6/27/2004
6:00 PM
Clifford's Puppy Days

6:30 PM
Jakers!

7:00 PM
Desert Speaks

7:30 PM
Great Museums

8:00 PM
American Experience

9:00 PM
Great Performances

Oh -- In case anyone was wondering --- Last time I looked, antennaweb gives you bearing as if they were in Oxford on WKOI's tower -- That is wrong -- They're on WXIX tower in Cincinnati ...

Originally posted by DrDon
Looks just like the thermometer on my Zenith. I'm maybe a skosh to the left of your signal. Of course, I've got mondo antenna pointed right at them. I got WXIX-DT when they were just running exciter.

Hmmmmm.. signal but no picture or PSIP. And they're on WHO'S tower? I rest my case <g>.

LOL! At least it didn't take them long to fix it :-)

According to their CP on FCC site -- Their antenna pattern is "sort of" directional but not overly so--- It doesn't favor the South as much as other directions, but if they are at full power I'd think Most folks should still be fine.

WPTO-DT CP antenna pattern here :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=43343&rotate=0.00&p0=1.000&p10=0.977&p20=0.917&p30=0.842&p40=0.776&p50=0.768&p60=0.779&p70=0.828&p80=0.885&p90=0.911&p100=0.880&p110=0.788&p120=0.673&p130=0.560&p140=0.467&p150=0.430&p160=0.452&p170=0.495&p180=0.521&p190=0.511&p200=0.477&p210=0.446&p220=0.468&p230=0.560&p240=0.688&p250=0.810&p260=0.891&p270=0.918&p280=0.885&p290=0.834&p300=0.793&p310=0.777&p320=0.816&p330=0.885&p340=0.949&p350=0.984&p360=1.000&

-------------------------------

I don't see that they've filed for a STA, so I would guess they are probably at full power under Program Test Authority. Here's what they would be using if at full power:

WPTO OH OXFORD USA (Digital)

Licensee: GREATER DAYTON PUBLIC TELEVISION, INC.
Service Designation: DT Digital television station

Channel: 28 554 - 560 MHz Modification of Construction Permit
File No.: BMPEDT-20020430ABK Facility ID number: 25065
CDBS Application ID No.: 601246

39° 07' 19.00" N Latitude Site in Canadian Border Zone 84° 32' 52.00" W Longitude (NAD 27)

Polarization: Horizontal (H)
Effective Radiated Power (ERP): 400. kW ERP
Antenna Height Above Average Terrain: 276. meters HAAT
Antenna Height Above Mean Sea Level: 492. meters AMSL
Antenna Height Above Ground Level: 270. meters AGL
TV Zone: 1
Directional Antenna ID No.: 43343
Pattern Rotation: 0.00

Relative Field values for directional antenna Relative Field polar plot
Relative field values do not include any pattern rotation that may be indicated above.

0° 1.000 60° 0.779 120° 0.673 180° 0.521 240° 0.688 300° 0.793 10° 0.977 70° 0.828 130° 0.560 190° 0.511 250° 0.810 310° 0.777 20° 0.917 80° 0.885 140° 0.467 200° 0.477 260° 0.891 320° 0.816 30° 0.842 90° 0.911 150° 0.430 210° 0.446 270° 0.918 330° 0.885 40° 0.776 100° 0.880 160° 0.452 220° 0.468 280° 0.885 340° 0.949 50° 0.768 110° 0.788 170° 0.495 230° 0.468 290° 0.834 350° 0.984

-----------------

Probably more than anyone wanted to know, but there you go ...

I'm about as far south as you can get and I receive WPTO-DT perfectly. On the other hand I have problems with WXIX-DT and occasionally with WSTR-DT and WCET-DT. I don't know if their antenna patterns are different or if they are low power which may be the case with all of them.

That's good news Bob :-) I'd bet you were their first OTA viewer.

WCET-DT's antenna pattern doesen't send much(according to FCC site anyway) in some directions towards the south -- its greatest null is shown on FCC site to be at 160+200 degrees bearing from their tower(true bearings, not magnetic) -- relative field value for those directions is shown at .19. Here's how you figure ERP from the Relative field values: Relative filed value SQUARED multipled by MAX ERP they are running. So, (.19x.19) X 215,000 Watts = 7.7 KW ERP should be being sent in those directions by WCET-DT's antenna.

Dry ridge should be a little better off -- didn't look at my map, but If I recall correctly I think it's pretty much directly south of the Cincy Towers .. So 180 degree bearing from WCET-DT = .370 relative field value == 29 KW ERP.

WSTR-DT IS running a low Power STA(Special Temporary authority) -- But it does seem to get out quite well anyway (power isn't the whole ball of wax) ... Its directional antenna pattern especially doesn't favor the East or SE of its tower. FCC site shows a .599 relative field value for their 17.1 KW ERP STA at 180 degrees, which would equal about 6.1 KW ERP being sent your way.

For WPTO-DT to Dry ridge -- .521 relative field value listed for their CP ... So .. (.521x.521) X 400,000 Watts = 108.5 KW ERP - H-Polarized signal.

WXIX-DT, from the same tower -- .537 relative field value towards Dry ridge .. They have a permit to move to higher power, however I think they're currently running with their licensed facility -- 227KW ERP max ... So, towards Dry ridge, that would be 65.4 KW ERP -- Their Signal uses Circular Polarization, all others in the area use a Horizontally polarized signal.

In comparison, WLWT-DT (512 KW ERP in all directions) and WKRC-DT (800 KW ERP in all directions) use a non-directional transmitting antenna, therefore their coverage area is circular.

For more info, You can look up this stuff here (make sure to choose the "detailed Info+CDBS links option for your query - I find Search By radius+a specific location very handy as well as it gives you the bearings+reverse bearings from your location ) :

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html

Jeff.. You seem to know quite a bit about OTA reception, so I am asking you for advice.

I just recently had DirecTV come out and install the HD Dish & Roof top antenna (looks like a Terk cheapy).. I get all the Cincy stations fine.

I am located in Villa Hills, KY. Being on top of the hill, there doesnt appear to be much in the way to the towers. Seeing someone in Dry Ridge is picking them up pretty easily in Dayton makes me think I should not have any problem.

If you were me.. What would you do to gain the best OTA channels available. (point my existing antenna towards Dayton and add an inside antenna for cincy? or what? )

Thanks in advance!

ITS ON AIR WPTO - DT AT LAST. THE ENCODER'S, AND PSIP GENERATOR ARE IN DAYTON SO THE SIGNAL IS FIBER TO THE TRANSMITTER. WPTO - DT IS AT FULL POWER , I BELIEVE IT AND WCPO - DT ARE THE ONLY TWO TRANSMITTERS AT FULL POWER.

I will see if I can snag it on my paired CM4221A "array" when I get back from work. Should be good at 400kW, since I can get WXIX-DT on most days at 227.

I've been enjoying WPTO-DT off and on all afternoon (I'm on vacation). At full power the're coming in great.

Off subject, can Jeff or anyone else tell me if WCVN-DT is running at full power, or at reduced power under an STA? If the're runing at reduced power, there may be hope for me yet....someday.

DTV insider -- Thanks for your+everyone at ThinkTV's hard work, we appreciate it.

Originally posted by jspicoli
I just recently had DirecTV come out and install the HD Dish & Roof top antenna (looks like a Terk cheapy).. I get all the Cincy stations fine.

I am located in Villa Hills, KY. Being on top of the hill, there doesnt appear to be much in the way to the towers. Seeing someone in Dry Ridge is picking them up pretty easily in Dayton makes me think I should not have any problem.

If you were me.. What would you do to gain the best OTA channels available. (point my existing antenna towards Dayton and add an inside antenna for cincy? or what? )



I'll give it a shot, but Doc could likely help you out more -- as I think you are right between him+the Cincy+Dayton towers -- If I recall correctly he's on a hill(farther away from the Towers) and uses a ATtic antenna setup for Dayton AND Cincinnati.

Anyhow --- I show Villa Hills(if it's on my map right - which Shows it Just South of River+Just NNE of Florence) at 49 Miles from the Dayton TV antenna farm -- Well within range, especially since you say you are on a hill. Dayton Stations have a general coverage area of around 55-65 miles or so - depending upon terrain and other issues at receiving location of course, and a couple of the Dayton stations are using fairly directional antenna patterns.

Dayton Towers are in same, exact direction as WSTR(WB) Cincinnati tower/WXIX(Fox cincinnati - Where WPTO-DT is now too) tower from Villa Hills, so you probably shouldn't need seperate antennas, one heading+the "right antenna" should work for Cincinnati +Dayton, except perhaps for WCVN-DT KET Covington, KY which is in Taylor Mill to your SSE. Everything except WCVN-DT (Including Dayton) is within a 30 degree bearing of each other, and since you're so close to Cincy, I'd think a quite directional antenna should work well for you -- The more directivity an antenna has, also generally speaking the more gain it has, which is what you want for Dayton.

Probably the biggest issue you would run into is, your only about 4-6 miles from all the Cincinnati towers, and since they are so close AND you have to aim right through them for the Dayton stations -- Those very strong signals from the Cincinnati stations can make it difficult to receive some Dayton stations, especially ones that transmit on channels that are right next to some Cincinnati stations. This can make it very difficult for your receiver to be selective enough to sort out what is what. For instance, there is WXIX(Fox) 19 analog Cincinnati and WBDT-DT 18 Dayton -- WXIX-DT(Fox digital) 29 Cincinnati, WRGT-DT (Fox digital) 30 Dayton -- Which also uses a directional antenna pattern that doesn't favor the South, so the signal would even be weaker right next to the strong WXIX-DT.

Also, while a preamp might be a good idea for Dayton from your location -- You're so close to The Cincinnati stations that the strong signals would likely overload the preamp, which would likely add a bunch of "noise"(Intermodulation distortion) right where the bit weaker signals from Dayton are.

I don't know what antenna you're using --- That's a big factor --- If it's one of those dish clip on antennas, the ones I've seen at least -- That's pretty much a set of "rabbit ears" (Folded dipole basically) -- worse than rabbit ears really as I think they can only be adjusted to work best in the direction the dish is aimed, which I would think think would be generally South-Southwest -- Which probably does work good for Cincinnati in your location, as IF that's the sort of antenna you have, it's probably picking up the Cincinnati stations off the "back side" of the antenna (There is no back side really, but if it's mounted with the dish BEHIND it it probably isn't going to have much of a chance at Dayton) -- But, yeah, if you can "aim it" properly towards Downtown Cincinnati, if you get anything at all from Dayton (Including the UHF analog stations) that should tell you something.

Anyhow -- To try to answer you question without going into too much detail --- What I would probably do is pick up a decent, Hi-gain directional UHF antenna such as the CM4228 (as close as you are to WCPO, it should be fine for its VHF signal on 10 as well .. Rest of Cincy/Dayton digitals are currently on UHF -- You can allways add a seperate VHF antenna later if necessary) stick it on a 10ft mast in the yard, aim it North(just a tad West of Downtown -- pretty much right along I-75 corridor) and see what I get from Dayton and Cincinnati. For KET/WCVN, I'd probably get hold of a Channel 24 Jointenna(so I could combine it onto the same feedline with the CM 4228) and a small Yagi and aim it towards Taylor mill for KET. I would try to find a "sweet spot" on the roof for the antenna setup for best reception before permanently mounting it. I would try to keep the feedline to TV as short as possible and I wouldn't use a preamp unless I "knocked down" the strong Signals from Cincinnat(which would probably get pretty complicated and would probably involve quite a bit of expense ) ... From on top of a hill though from your location -- You probably won't need a preamp anyway for Dayton --

If you want to check it out, WKRC-DT has a excellent page here: concerning OTA HD reception : -- In your case -- because of your location -- What they say about aiming the antenna towards Downtown Cincinnati not only works for Cincy, but it would work for Dayton Too!

http://www.wkrc.com/hdtv/receiving_hdtv.aspx

Hope that makes some sense -- Let us know how it goes if you decide to try it. You won't see a lot more HD than you do from the Cincy stations, but the Dayton stations make nice backups when things go "wrong" or when Cincy station has something else scheudled/etc. You do get some different SD programming from Dayton -- say, UD basketball games, and sometimes (but not a lot) different NFL games and the like -- Don't know how it will work out with the FOX NFL HD this fall -- I have often seen WRGT Fox Dayton air Steelers games when Fox cincy has a different game.

------------------------

Oh, BTW - -- Microbob in Dry ridge is talking about WPTO-DT 28 (remaps to 14.x) - PBS/Think TV which just came on the air. -- Its in Cincinnati, Not Dayton. Dayton towers are 75 Miles from Dry ridge, a little outside their coverage area.

Clarke -- Per William's previous comments -- WCVN-DT is at their fully licensed power (53.5 KW ERP).

If I recall correctly -- You've got that hill very nearby and in the exact wrong spot -- But -- seems like if you're getting the analog fairly well (even if it's a bit snowy+ghosty - relatively speaking the DT is actually running more power than the analog(162 KW ERP "peak" - Multiply DTV ERP power by about 4 or 5 for the rough equiveent), you would think you should be able to get the digital too, especially since its on a Much lower frequency a little less prone to terrain issues(lower frequencies even on UHF take less power to cover same area as well - High UHF is especially prone to terrain blockage issues) .. The DT transmitting antenna is only about 30 ft below the analog - I think William had said that the analog has a greater amount of Beam tilt, which might exacerbate your terrain issues a little, but still ....

Here's the info on WCVN-DT's facilities from FCC site:

WCVN-TV KY COVINGTON USA (Digital)

Licensee: KENTUCKY AUTHORITY FOR EDUCATIONAL TV
Service Designation: DT Digital television station

Channel: 24 530 - 536 MHz Licensed
File No.: BLEDT-20020201ABJ Facility ID number: 34204
CDBS Application ID No.: 594281

39° 01' 50.00" N Latitude Site in Canadian Border Zone 84° 30' 23.00" W Longitude (NAD 27)

Polarization: Horizontal (H)
Effective Radiated Power (ERP): 53.5 kW ERP
Antenna Height Above Average Terrain: 117. meters HAAT
Antenna Height Above Mean Sea Level: 335. meters AMSL
Antenna Height Above Ground Level: 82. meters AGL TV Zone: 2 Directional Antenna ID No.: 31523 Pattern Rotation: 0.00
Antenna Make: DIE Antenna Model: TLP16B(24)

Relative Field values for directional antenna Relative Field polar plot
Relative field values do not include any pattern rotation that may be indicated above.

0° 1.000 60° 0.820 120° 0.602 180° 0.676 240° 0.602 300° 0.820 10° 0.994 70° 0.767 130° 0.608 190° 0.672 250° 0.609 310° 0.871 20° 0.978 80° 0.715 140° 0.623 200° 0.659 260° 0.631 320° 0.915 30° 0.951 90° 0.668 150° 0.642 210° 0.642 270° 0.668 330° 0.951 40° 0.915 100° 0.631 160° 0.659 220° 0.623 280° 0.715 340° 0.978 50° 0.871 110° 0.609 170° 0.672 230° 0.623 290° 0.767 350° 0.994

Clarke..

Don't know about you, but I have to turn the antenna to get WCVN-DT, too. I'm not surprised. My yagi has a very narrow beam and CVN is quite a ways east of the others. When I connect my combo (wider beam) they come in just fine. But I lose Dayton.

Jspicoli

Jeff's correct. From your position, a small UHF yagi on the roof might be able to nail Cincy and Dayton. You might have to make a few trips up there to point it. If I move mine more than 2 degrees, I'll lose one of the Dayton stations. So, finding that notch is kind of hard. But I'm in the attic. WKRC-DT comes in a little less than the others because it's east of the direction I'm pointing. It'll be farther east for you. WCPO-DT is VHF and, while the Samsung sometimes has fits, the Zenith pulls it down just fine.

From Florence, with the yagi pointed directly at WXIX, I get everybody BUT Fox Dayton and WB Dayton. WCVN breaks up as does WPTD-DT and WKOI-DT.

Happy to help you further if you need it.

Thanks everyone for the info. I currently get WCVN-DT, but not without dropouts. I have a Blake JBX14 yagi pointed for best reception at WCVN-DT. It has a wide enough band width that I still get all the other Cincy stations without dropouts. I have tried rotating it toward Dayton on multiple occasions, but without any luck. WCVN-DT reception here is more consistant in the summer than in the winter. In the winter I have to rotate the antenna further CW to maintain reception of WCVN-DT and then I loose WSTR-DT, but I'm pretty sure WSTR-DT is not at full power so that situation may correct itself in the future.

I may try a 4228 in the future on a second mast with a separate feedline to a remote controlled A/B switch to see if it does better with WCVN-DT or the Dayton Stations unless I can talk William into going outside and putting 200 Ft shims under the tower legs.

Clarke...

Your dropouts wouldn't happen to coincide with the planes, would they? Half of the reason I stepped up to the CM 4248 was because it was better at rejecting the reflections than the combo was.

Dr Don...
I don't think I've had any problems with the planes, but the next time I have drop outs I'll check the traffic and see if there is a connection. The traffic pattern is perpendicular to and crosses the antenna pattern to WCVN-DT.

I'm also considering a new STB, but probably not before the next generation receivers on the LG or Thompson boxes. Hopefully they will be available this fall or early next year.

Clarke

Booming in fine here in Amelia. I've not been reading the forums much this past week due to issues at work, so I was pleasantly surprised when I sat down to watch last night to find them up and going. :-)

Dave

Clarke..

Easy way to check: tune to 54 analog and just watch it as one flies over. Looks like we're getting the landers, today, so you should have plenty of opportunities <g>. If you see the picture start to jerk around as one lands (on either N/S runway) then you've found the source of your dropouts.

Out of the loop, lately, awaiting the SA 8000HD. Is TNT HD always SD smooth/wide? Is there any HD material? Does it mirror SD TNT?

Clarke,

Some other thoughts, FWIW ---

You aren't using a preamp are you? If so, defintely try getting rid of it. Also -- while it can be of some use in some situations Adding an attenuator while using a preamp to try to solve overload problems isn't going to help if it is the preamp that is overloading and putting extra "noise" (IM) on ch 24 ...

Certianly Could be multipath issue(or perhaps more likely a combination of issues, which is what I would suspect) -- but, still -- I wouldn't be surprised at all(especially so if you're using a preamp) if one of the main issues involve getting TOO MUCH signal -- For example -- Reception better in summer(leaves on the trees=a little more attenuation of signals, especially on UHF) Than winter -- Keep in mind -- Trees/leaves don't Create Multipath -- They attenuate signals -- but can be multipath facctors -- for instance -- Tree leaves may Block more of direct line of sight signal in summer, and in Winter you'd get more of the direct signal and less signal from Multipath -- or Tree leaves might block more of the Echos ....

Now, that "too strong" signal might not be from WCVN specifically(although it could be as close as you are), but could be something else(or a combination of strong signals just about anywhere on VHF/UHF - including off of TV channels) causing overload/IM issues -- Although I think your terrain issues are probably the main reason why you haven't had any luck with Dayton -- still a "iron curtain" of noise effect(Recevier desense/overload due to nearby STRONG signals+overload issues in same or nearly same direction) might have something to do with it too.

I don't recall which receiver you are using -- But, for the most part I'd think the front end of receiver should really be able to handle such strong signals as you should be getting from Cincy -- I do have to wonder about some specific models where this is concerned though ... Hughes E86 especially comes to mind from various posts I've read ..

If you're using a preamp though --at your distance from the towers -- I can pretty much guarentee that if you're using one -- It is definitely overloading and spreading "noise" all over the place, which might be effecting some channels and not others. It might not be easy to tell what's going on just by looking at the "snow" (especially on 24, since unless it's off air, WCVN-DT's signal would make it difficult to see any thing odd) .... In fact, the intermod might just show up as fairly clean looking snow, but there may REally be a signal(say from dayton on Channel 26) hiding underneath there ....

If it's happening w/o use of a preamp though -- again, I would think the Receiver should be designed to handle the strong signals, but still, a attenuator(RS sells a inexpenisve Variable attenuator) might be worthwhile to check out.

I'd think it also might be worthwhile to pick up a antenna such as a silver sensor or RS DBT(now calling it "dual HDTV antenna or some such thing), as well as some extra feedline so you can move it around (in the yard, by the window/etc/etc/etc) so you can see what you can get with it ... That MIGHT tell you something, too ....

Blake JBX14 is one of the highest gain, narrowest beam-width(high-directivity) antennas out there, BTW.

Jeff..

Had to laugh. You and I read different things into the summer/winter thing. In the winter, the planes land from the south all the time. Not so much in the summer. And Clarke's about 1/4 mile from me. At only ten miles or so, the leaf attenuation thing didn't enter my mind <g>

Doc