Cincinnati, OH - HDTV [Text View] - Page 30

Nitewatchman

07-29-07, 08:26 PM

12.2 and 5.2 come in perfect too.

Keep in mind, it is not possible for a reception issue to be involved if you are decoding 12.2 and 5.2. For example the Datastreams(for say video+audio) for 12.1 and 12.2 from WKRC-DT, and 5.1+5.2 from WLWT-DT, respectively, are both contained within the same signal, respectively.

In other words, It's not possible to decode one of them(5.2 or 12.2) just fine and be having any sort of reception problem with the other(12.1 or 5.1).

However, in regards to above, That may change someday if stations start using(and our receivers start supporting) more robust transmission modes via lower bandwidth multicast services. Such as using E-VSB or some of the newer mobile DTV/ATSC "possibilities", such as MP/H/etc. NOTE all of those more robust data transmission modes are backwards compatabile and can be used "alongside" the current datastreams, but no receiver I know of so far available to consumers even yet supports those, nor is any station in the area doing anything like that I'm aware of presently, and also, most importantly 5.2+12.2 certianly aren't using those currently (otherwise I wouldn't be able to decode them, including with older equipment).

Also keep in mind, those 5.x, 12.x channel numbers are virtual "remapped" channel numbers. FCC requires all digital stations to send that info, The major channel number "remaps" to the analog station's channel number, unlike with analog OTA, regarding to what most receivers(tuners) show the channel # as to the user, it has nothing to do with where the actual signal is actually transmitted. For examplle In these cases The signals are actually transmitted (currently) on UHF channel 31 for WKRC-DT, and UHF channel 35 from WLWT-DT.

You can find the "actual" channel numbers for other Cincinnati stations, as well as the "actual" channel #'s that will be used after analog shut off by local cincinnati stations(including those which will be moving) in the first post of this thread. Dayton full service stations BTW, will be remaining on all UHF for DTV after analog shut off, although a couple of them will be moving around the UHF dial a bit(WBDT-DT currently on 18, will be moving to 26, WPTD-DT currently on 58, will be moving to 16).

In any case, as mentioned by others, your problem does seem unusual(especially since noone else so far has reported getting the problem), and this is just wild guess ---- but, if a channel "rescan" doesn't "fix" the problem, my best guess at this point regarding your 5.1/12.1 decoding problems would be that I suspect some sort of "receiver model specific" decoding issue, that is specific to the ATSC receiver("tuner") in Your TV. Or that for some reason it's having a problem with PSIP or other metadata formatting issues. If it's any of those, I would also guess it may be somehow specific to WKRC-DT or WLWT-DT specific equipment or "settings", or how PSIP and PAT/PMT or PID's/etc. are configured at WKRC-DT/WLWT. Looking at TSreader(software which lets me "see" quite a bit of info on the transport stream+how the stations have it "configured"), I'm not seeing anything that seems unusual about that metadata/etc, from WLWT-DT/WKRC-DT 12.1 or 5.1 that "jumps out" as apparent, so I don't have a clue what may be causing the issue.

So, the question probably is I'd think, is there something specifically "fautly" and wrong about how your receiver("tV") is handling what WKRC-DT/WLWT-DT is doing, or is there some sort of little "bug" regarding their setup/equipment etc that's causing the issue to occur with certian decoders, including, or specifically your model of set ....

So far, my past experience with this sort of thing has allways turned out to involve the latter, and I would suspect it a good chance others using the same equipment(or chipset for ATSC internal receiver in your set) as you are are probably having the same problem - hopefully, if so perhaps we'll hear some reports from others having such problem. If that's not the case, and it's specfic your YOUR individual set, then it seems likely there truly may be something "wrong" with your set.

As for things to try to make sure there's nothing strange going on on your end -- if you haven't already done so, I would suggest "rescanning" for channels --- and also, if your tuner "allows" you to manually tune to the actual channels/program streams by "bypassing" the channel remapping(PSIP) info(some tuners allow you to do this, some do not) ---- you could try manually tuning to 31.3 (This is the where the program stream that is 12.1 "remaps" "shows up" on most receivers that allow you to bypass PSIP ---- Note or 31.1 - some receivers recognize and "show" these streams differently) for WKRC-DT, and 35.3 (or 35.1) to see if you can decode them there.

------------------------

Also, after trying those steps, IF rescanning doesn't fix it, and whether or not you can "bypass" PSIP, and whether or not it works, I would suggest you may want to contact WLWT and WKRC engineering folks and report the issue, along with the model of set your using --- Note that, as you probably already know, you can contact "WH Weasel" at WKRC here, including via PM with the details/etc.

You could try RCA folks as well, but I'd start with the local engineering folks, -- If it is a "RCA problem", they may also be in a better posistion to best detirmine that ... You may need to be patient though, as these sorts of things can not only be frustrating, but can take quite a bit of time ...

An exception to that might be, IF you can detirmine that it is a problem that is "specific" solely to your individual set(then you'd definitely want to go to RCA, or for serviceing/warranty coverage from where you bought the set - but, that does seem unlikely to me at this point, given that you are decoding other stations(including those sending 1080i streams) just fine.

sorry that was so long, Hope that helps somewhat, good luck+let us know how it goes ...

JunkyardDogg

07-29-07, 08:47 PM

In addition to what Jeff posted, I would suggest that you look up your TV in the Display Device section of the forum. Search around that topic to see if anyone else is having your problem. Then make a post and see if anyone knows. This is a very interesting problem. Perhaps a certain picture mode is enabled, like a stretch or something. I don't have direct experience with RCAs, but hopefully we can get this figured out. If it comes down to it, try to pull in WDTN-DT, they put out a strong signal and if you are getting WHIO, you could get WDTN pretty easy.

rhupertgee

07-29-07, 09:07 PM

Wow, thanks for the detailed information. It is really good stuff.

I figured it was my TV for a long time, but gave it the benefit of the doubt. I will try the things you suggested, but ultimately, I think I will be selling the TV....cutting my loses.....and buy an LCD TV. As soon as the 50 inch comes down in price a bit....

Thanks again for all of your responses.

Nitewatchman

07-29-07, 09:53 PM

rhupertgee,

What is the model # of your set? I used to have a RCA F38310 (with a bit unusual internal "verison" of RCA's DTC-100 - yes, a OTA NTSC, ATSC AND a DirecTV HD receiver INSIDE the TV), and if it's that set(or another older RCA with the internal DTC-100), I might be able to help you with some of that ... For example, You can "turn off" the PSIP/channel remapping and use the 'actual" channel/ program Stream #'s for example by turning "off" "off air guides" in a user menu option ...

I haven't had that set for 2 years now(owned it from 2001~2005), but FWIW, it did decode WKRC-DT/WLWT-DT just fine ...

navyblue2000

07-30-07, 03:22 PM

Hey, I'm from the Milford area. Add me to the list of people thoroughly disgusted with TWC. I'm paying too much and getting too little with substandard equipment (my box's clock has never worked right and it seems half the time I can't watch MOD). I'll keep my high speed internet with them, but I'm definitely going to be going elsewhere for my viewing habits. I think the top 100 (or heck, even family if I can get it plus HD) plus HD will be fine. If I get the dish "box", does it have an ATSC tuner to where i can get my local HD OTA? Or will I need a separate box?

Thanks!

dc10forlife

07-30-07, 07:28 PM

Instead of keeping track of dissatisfied TWC customers, how about starting a list of thoroughly satisfied customers. PM me to be added.

1. Bronson Arroyo (apparently he does not have an HDTV to watch the Reds on FSN-Ohio-HD).

2.

In answer to your question, if you get a Dish HD receiver it will include an ATSC tuner.

terryfoster

07-30-07, 08:09 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the E* box only has one ATSC tuner. This may not be a big deal for some people, but for me it was a huge deal breaker.

Bill R (# 2)

07-30-07, 10:10 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the E* box only has one ATSC tuner. This may not be a big deal for some people, but for me it was a huge deal breaker.

You are correct. The DISH HD receivers have only one ATSC tuner.

For me it is not a big deal at all. MOST of the stuff (except for sports) on network TV is CRAP anyway and very, very, rarely have I seen two programs on that I wanted to record at the same time. Besides you can always record the second program in SD.

DISH has said that they will be adding the (big four) HD locals but haven't announced a time frame.

mlbUC

07-30-07, 11:29 PM

As someone who never had satellite until June of 2006, I've never been happier. I absolutely am satisfied since I dropped Time Warner. I have since made it my job to get as many people to leave TWC as possible as it is the only way they will ever change. I have DSL for internet, and Dish for my TV. I couldn't be happier having "cut the cable".

JunkyardDogg

07-31-07, 08:48 AM

For those who still like to bundle and save some money, Cinti Bell offers D* service to be bundled with phone, zoomtown and cell. I am OTA only, so I cannot comment on D* vs. E* picture quality, though there is much more choice with those compared to TW.

navyblue2000

07-31-07, 10:28 AM

D*? E*?

Splicer010

07-31-07, 10:37 AM

mlbUC

07-31-07, 10:42 AM

D*? E*?

D* = DirecTV
E* = Echostar/Dish Network

Bill R (# 2)

07-31-07, 11:14 AM

Anyone else in here get the locals via a QAM tuner from Aelphia, now TW system(s)??? The unencrypted channels??? For me NBC goes off air @ 8PM sharp and does not return for hours. Anyone else notice this??? Does this happen when using a TW box instead of your own QAM tuner???

I am not on that cable system but my bet is that they are just moving the channel during prime time (when the station is providing HD programming). Of course, people using their STBs would not notice that since the box automatically maps the channel to the same channel it was mapped to before. The other thing that could be happening is that they are encrypting it during prime time (I don't think that they should be).

Next time that happens do a scan and see if you pick it up on a different (non-mapped) channel number.

I really think that some cable companies do things like that just to try to rent their cable boxes. As least, that is what my cable company did last year when I complained about them moving the PBS station around about once a month (thankfully they stopped doing that).

Once cable companies here start using switched digital video there may be a lot of complaints if they use it for local HD channels.

zekyl

08-01-07, 03:48 PM

So I saw today that TWC now has a live internet chat to talk with a rep. I just did and found out that within a few minutes I had someone. Much quicker than calling or emailing most of the times. I quizzed him about upcoming HD channel additions and he said there were none that he was aware of. I had heard from a previous post changes were coming sometime around August 7th. He claimed no knowledge of this.

bobsaah

08-01-07, 04:09 PM

The August issue of the Time Warner event magazine for southwest Ohio, again shows ESPN2HD as coming soon but this time no date. Below is what I found on TW web site under channel lineup changes.

Time Warner Cable’s agreements with programmers to carry their services routinely expire from time to time. We are usually able to obtain renewals or extensions of such agreements, and carriage of programming services is discontinued only in rare circumstances. The following agreements with programmers are due to expire soon, and we may be required to cease carriage of one or more of these services in the near future:

DIY on Demand; Fine Living on Demand, Food Network on Demand, GAC on Demand, HGTV, HGTV on Demand. In former Adelphia areas and previous Western Ohio areas: Encore MoviePlex, Showtime West, Showtime Showcase West, Showtime Extreme West, Showtime Beyond West, TMC West, TMC Xtra West, Flix West, Starz West, Starz Cinema West, Encore West, Encore Love West, Encore Westerns West, Encore Mystery West, Encore Drama West, Encome Action West.

In addition, from time to time we make certain changes in the services that we offer in order to better serve our customers. The following changes are planned:

Adds to Cincinnati area: ESPNU to channel 110, ESPN2HD to channel 976, WSTR HD to channel 964. Moves to Cincinnati area programming: AZN moves to channel 159. Adds in former Adelphia areas: ESPNU to channel 125, ESPN2HD to channel 976, WSTR HD to channel 964. In both areas, reposition to standard HD tier: ESPN HD, TNT HD, Discovery HD. In Oxford and surrounding areas: Adds: ESPNU to channel 114, ESPN2HD to channel 764, TV Guide Channel to channel 18. C-Span 2 to channel 22. Changes: Oxford city access moves to channel 19, Talawanda Schools access moves to channel 24, C-Span moves to channel 10, WGN moves to channel 17, TBS moves to channel 32, QVC moves to channel 9, A & E moves to channel 34, ABC Family moves to channel 13, Spike TV moves to channel 59, Leased Access moves to channel 11, EWTN moves to channel 24, USA moves to channel 33, MTV moves to channel 60, Discovery Channel moves to channel 50, Weather Channel moves to channel 56, Lifetime moves to channel 35, CNN moves to channel 70, ESPN moves to channel 26, ESPN 2 moves to channel 27, ESPN Classic moves to digital channel 113, Comedy Central moves to channel 38, E!TV moves to channel 39, Court TV moves to channel 66, TLC moves to channel 49, History Channel moves to channel 52, Cartoon moves to channel 45, Fox Sports Net Ohio moves to channel 29, Headline News moves to channel 71, HGTV moves to channel 53, Sci-Fi moves to channel 36, TCM moves to channel 64, AMC moves to channel 37, Travel Channel moves to channel 55, BET moves to channel 65, VH1 moves to channel 62, MSNBC moves to channel 69, CNBC moves to channel 72, National Geographic moves to channel 67, Golf Channel moves to channel 30, CMT moves to channel 58, Food Network moves to channel 54, TV Land moves to channel 41, Animal Planet moves to channel 51, Nickelodeon moves to channel 42, Disney moves to channel 43, Hallmark Channel moves to digital channel 172, TNT moves to channel 31, Fuse moves to channel 78, Shop NBC moves to channel 25, Style moves to channel 44, Oxygen moves to channel 76, WE moves to channel 48, FX moves to channel 40, Versus moves to channel 57, FOX News moves to channel 68.

zekyl

08-01-07, 04:58 PM

DarkwingDuck

08-01-07, 05:07 PM

I would link to it but I haven't posted enough so go to twcinci and hover over programming then go to channel lineups and then click on channel lineup notifications

I just put my SA8300 in diag to see if WSTR HD was available but it wasn't. Worth a shot!

bobsaah

08-01-07, 06:30 PM

Looking at the add in the Time Warner event magazine for southwest Ohio a little closer, it does not show the Universal HD network logo. I wonder if they are taking it away?

zekyl

08-01-07, 08:41 PM

CincySaint

08-02-07, 09:51 AM

HD is getting more mainstream....

Look at this detail buried in the TWC changes:

In both areas, reposition to standard HD tier: ESPN HD, TNT HD, Discovery HD.

So TWC is trying to grab all those new HD set owners with "free" HD locals and 3 other channels.

Bill R (# 2)

08-02-07, 10:02 AM

I can't speak for TWC but on our cable system "standard HD tier" does not mean the same as unencrypted digital channel. Are you sure ESPN HD, TNT HD, and Discovery HD will be "free" (unencrypted)?

slimm

08-02-07, 11:13 AM

DaveA28

08-02-07, 12:42 PM

TNT HD and Discovery HD are already unencrypted via TWC Cincy. Whether ESPN HD will be is anyones guess.

I have TW in Maineville (former Adelphia Amelia system) and the only unscrambled channel other than broadcast channels is Universal HD. It did have ESPN HD unscrambled for a while but its been scrambled for the last month or so.

Splicer010

08-02-07, 02:03 PM

I have TW in Maineville (former Adelphia Amelia system) and the only unscrambled channel other than broadcast channels is Universal HD. It did have ESPN HD unscrambled for a while but its been scrambled for the last month or so.
Dave is correct...Dave...Do you see what I see on 105-1 @ 8PM every nite???

slimm

08-02-07, 02:32 PM

I have TW in Maineville (former Adelphia Amelia system) and the only unscrambled channel other than broadcast channels is Universal HD. It did have ESPN HD unscrambled for a while but its been scrambled for the last month or so.

That's funny because here(TWC Cincy) UHD is scrambled(encrypted).

DaveA28

08-02-07, 09:48 PM

Dave is correct...Dave...Do you see what I see on 105-1 @ 8PM every nite???

My Sony Bravia has it remapped to 5.1, so thats what I usually tune to. I havent noticed anything weird lately. I just tuned to 5.1 and 105.1 and the Office was fine in HD.

There was a problem that started in April I think where the encoding on channel 105 was messed up. It was not sending the virtual channel table which sets up the channel remapping. The Sony didnt have any problem - it must have remembered the remapping. But my Linux MythTV system would not tune to WLWT-HD because it didnt see the virt channel table. I did adjust the channel setup so it could tune after I figured out the problem. And they fixed the encoding several weeks later.

CincySaint

08-02-07, 10:29 PM

I can't speak for TWC but on our cable system "standard HD tier" does not mean the same as unencrypted digital channel. Are you sure ESPN HD, TNT HD, and Discovery HD will be "free" (unencrypted)?

Sorry Bill but I wasn't implying unencrypted. I was thinking more in terms of pricing. TWC needs to compete with D* and E* for all the new HD set owners. By putting these channels on a digital tier, they are providing some HD content at no additional cost to some subscribers.

jimp2244

08-03-07, 10:04 PM

Now that the first Bengals preseason game is less than a week away, I think it's time to ask if we'll get any preseason games in HD. WKRC will be carrying all the presason games, but some of them are also being shown on ESPN or NFLN.

WebHopperWeasel, will WKRC be carrying the HD signal from ESPN for the Falcons game on Aug 27?

Will WKRC carry an HD signal for the NFL Network game against the Colts or is NFLN just taking the feed from the Bengals production?

Is it safe to assume that the first two games, which are just on WKRC, are not going to be in HD?

Additionaly, do you know at this point whether WKRC will carry ESPN's HD feed for the two Monday Night Football regular season games? Is it safe to assume that the NFL Network game is being picked up by WLWT again?

Thanks and I hope you realize that those of us who are OTA only appreciate your efforts last year to get the ESPN game to us in HD.

From A Buick 8

08-05-07, 08:49 PM

andynamus1

08-06-07, 07:04 AM

From A Buick 8

08-06-07, 08:25 AM

Just hooked up my new JVC a couple of weeks ago, and could only get some locals... I seem to recall at least some of them were in HD, but there is better OTA for those stations, anyway. No joy for the encrypted channels, such as ESPN-HD, etc.

andy

How about the overall PQ for insight cable with your JVC. I am leaning to Dish for what i think will be a better PQ, but my wife is not sure.

We are in Northern Kentucky and we have the basic insight now and the PQ is not all that great.

LukeH7

08-06-07, 10:05 AM

From A Buick 8

08-06-07, 01:20 PM

I don't have Insight cable (I'm TW). But, in general, without using CableCard, you'll only get the local broadcast stations in HD via QAM on cable. No HD HBO, SHO, ESPN, HDNET, etc. Have to use CC or a set top box to get those.

That is good news all i want with the QAM is to get the local HD without having to "rent" the digital box from Insight.

jimp2244

08-06-07, 01:27 PM

That is good news all i want with the QAM is to get the local HD without having to "rent" the digital box from Insight.

OTA antenna is not an option? If all you want is local channels you can get all of them (and more, such as Dayton and if you're lucky maybe even Louisville or Lexington) for free with an antenna...

If you're able to put a dish up then you're able to put an antenna up. So unless I'm missing something I think OTA is the way to go for you.

Splicer010

08-06-07, 01:37 PM

OTA antenna is not an option? If all you want is local channels you can get all of them (and more, such as Dayton and if you're lucky maybe even Louisville or Lexington) for free with an antenna...

If you're able to put a dish up then you're able to put an antenna up. So unless I'm missing something I think OTA is the way to go for you.
The PITA factor is having to redirect the antenna for almost every station...At least for me it is...and it is nice having UHD free from cable. ;)

jimp2244

08-06-07, 01:46 PM

The PITA factor is having to redirect the antenna for almost every station...At least for me it is...
I used to think so too. But really, I am OTA-only and have zero "PITA factor." I have one antenna up which receives all of the Cincinnati channels with no adjustment. I added a rotor but only so that I could pick up all of the Dayton channels. So basically, there are two positions, A and B. The antenna stays at A almost all of the time and I receive all of the Cincinnati stations. If I ever have a reason to watch something out of Dayton, position B works for all of those stations.

From his location, I would be extremely surprised if he weren't able to secure dropout-free reception of all of the local channels with one antenna position very easily. Then he can take the savings from cable and after a few months he'll have paid off the antenna completely, and at that point it will start paying for the new TV he just bought.

and it is nice having UHD free from cable. ;)
You're not getting anything free from cable...

Splicer010

08-06-07, 02:58 PM

You're not getting anything free from cable...
I only pay for internet service... ;) :D

Bill R (# 2)

08-06-07, 09:14 PM

Hello, i am getting my first HDTV, i am trying to decide between Dish and Insight cable. My question is will the QAM turner in my HDTV be able to get the HD programing that Insight carries, or do i need to use their cable box.

I have looked through several pages but still not sure. :)

As other have said the only thing that you will be able to receive with your TV's QAM tuner on Insight's digital cable are the local channels (except for WSTR, they don't carry the digital feed for it). All those channels are unencrypted and there are also some music channels (Music Choice) that are unencrypted. For anything else you will need one of their crappy STBs. If you get the basic package from Insight ($13.25 a month plus taxes) you will be able to get all the unencrypted channels on your TV plus 25 analog channels (mostly junk like community access channels but the analog local are included too). By the way, Insight has only about 10 other HD channels so if you really want HD DISH Network or DirecTV is a much better choice. DirecTV does not have a lot of HD channels now but they will be adding them once their new satellites are in service.

DISH Network currently has about 36 HD channels and they are adding 7 new ones August 15th. DISH does not carry the Cincinnati HD locals but their HD DVRs (like the models 622 and 722) have an ATSC tuner so all you have to do is add a good antenna and you will be able to receive (and record) them on the DVR. I am also able to pull in the Dayton digital channels on my 622. Both of those models have three tuners (two satellite and one ATSC for OTA digital channels) and you can record three HD programs at the same time.

ShakesTheClown

08-06-07, 09:33 PM

Any word on them adding more HD channels? Just got into the HD market with my first HD TV.

Thanks

jimp2244

08-07-07, 07:02 AM

That is good news all i want with the QAM is to get the local HD without having to "rent" the digital box from Insight.

I don't want to read too much into his post but he specifically said all he wants is local HD channels, which would seem to me to make cable a bad choice (no WSTR-DT) and DISH a bad choice (you'd have to use an antenna to get locals anyway). Why not just put up an antenna and get it all, including better picture quality, for free? :confused:

Splicer010

08-07-07, 09:33 AM

Bill R (# 2)

08-07-07, 11:37 AM

Any word on them (Insight) adding more HD channels? Just got into the HD market with my first HD TV.

Thanks

Insight is trying to sell their cable systems and I don't think that you will see many HD additions until there is a new owner. Insight has "approached" both Time Warner and Cincinnati Bell but both have said that they are asking too much for the their Northern Kentucky system.

Bill R (# 2)

08-07-07, 11:48 AM

I don't want to read too much into his post but he specifically said all he wants is local HD channels

We are just trying to lead him is a better direction (more and better HD content). My take is "what good is a better picture when the content is crap" and that is what most network programming is (except for sports). Quite frankly, I don't watch most of the programs on the local stations (except for news and sports) and IMO the offerings from the networks are getting worse each year, not better. Their viewership will continue to decline as more and more people find out what HD programming is available from cable and satellite companies.

tyromark

08-07-07, 12:50 PM

Guess we're getting into "the shows I like" territory here. IMO I either skip around (or not) as much between available digital and analog OTA channels at my house or the 72 channels on the GF's cable. Personally, the biggest benefit in digital beyond the capacity for HD resolution for me is the number of sub-channels aired by the various PBS stations in the area.

slimm

08-07-07, 01:30 PM

jleupen

08-07-07, 05:19 PM

This is what I got when I emailed Customer Support.

Thank you for writing Time Warner Cable Customer Service,

Time Warner Cable is pleased to announce channel locations for two new, highly anticipated networks. As of September 2007, ESPNU will be joining the channel lineup in the Digital Basic Tier on channel 114 in Dayton, 125 in the former Adelphia area, and channel 110 in Cincinnati. ESPN2HD will be on the Standard HD Tier; channel 764 in Dayton, and channel 976, in the Cincinnati, and former Adelphia areas. You may also notice some shifting of other channel locations as we make room for these networks, and other networks, to be announced later.

I suspect you Cinci TWC subs will be getting all kinds of new HD channels now that I switched to DirecTV (yesterday)... :D

ansarar

08-07-07, 09:57 PM

This is what I got when I emailed Customer Support.

Thank you for writing Time Warner Cable Customer Service,

Time Warner Cable is pleased to announce channel locations for two new, highly anticipated networks. As of September 2007, ESPNU will be joining the channel lineup in the Digital Basic Tier on channel 114 in Dayton, 125 in the former Adelphia area, and channel 110 in Cincinnati. ESPN2HD will be on the Standard HD Tier; channel 764 in Dayton, and channel 976, in the Cincinnati, and former Adelphia areas. You may also notice some shifting of other channel locations as we make room for these networks, and other networks, to be announced later.

And still no NFL Network or Reds in HD. TW stinks!

What new Dish channels are we getting in HD on the 15th?

Also, since OTA is known to be better PQ than Compressed Satellite feeds, if I have my antenna plugged into my Dish 622, am I getting the pure OTA picture or is there anything going on inside the box before I see it on the screen?

Thanks!

jim tressler

08-07-07, 10:30 PM

pure picture!

andynamus1

08-08-07, 06:36 AM

How about the overall PQ for insight cable with your JVC. I am leaning to Dish for what i think will be a better PQ, but my wife is not sure.

We are in Northern Kentucky and we have the basic insight now and the PQ is not all that great.
Sorry for the delay.. I mostly agree with the above comments, but can say that the JVC has a much better OTA tuner than my old Samsung set top box... I get all the Cincy/Northern KY stations, as well as all the Dayton stations with a $15 Radio Shack UHF antenna, set on the FLOOR in my BASEMENT in Villa Hills.

To answer your specific question above, I'm quite happy with the PQ on the regular cable, considering the source... OTA HD is, of course, much better.

andy

From A Buick 8

08-08-07, 07:07 AM

I don't want to read too much into his post but he specifically said all he wants is local HD channels, which would seem to me to make cable a bad choice (no WSTR-DT) and DISH a bad choice (you'd have to use an antenna to get locals anyway). Why not just put up an antenna and get it all, including better picture quality, for free? :confused:

Thanks to everyone for all of the great input. I currently have the basic service from Insight , i want to upgrade to their next level (so the kids will have nick and disney and the wife will have HGTV). The only "HD" content i want is the local stations. I thought if the local HD was available through my QAM tuner that would be the most "simple" way to get the local HD stuff.

Based on what i have read i think i will go ahead and also get a good outdoor antenna to get the local HD on. I want (need) to be able to show some HD stuff with a stunning picture so i can justify the HDTV purchase (if you know what i mean).

jimp2244

08-08-07, 07:18 AM

Thanks to everyone for all of the great input. I currently have the basic service from Insight , i want to upgrade to their next level (so the kids will have nick and disney and the wife will have HGTV). The only "HD" content i want is the local stations. I thought if the local HD was available through my QAM tuner that would be the most "simple" way to get the local HD stuff.

Based on what i have read i think i will go ahead and also get a good outdoor antenna to get the local HD on. I want (need) to be able to show some HD stuff with a stunning picture so i can justify the HDTV purchase (if you know what i mean).
Let us know if you need any help with this!

From A Buick 8

08-08-07, 08:32 AM

Let us know if you need any help with this!

I am sure i will need help

Right now i want to attach the antenna to my chimney, i am looking at the Channel Master CM 3016 . I would like to share the same coax as the cable usees so i guess i will need a Diplexer (?).

My total run will be over 50 feet, do you think i will need an ampliphier.

See i need lot's of help... :)

JunkyardDogg

08-08-07, 09:27 AM

I am sure i will need help

Right now i want to attach the antenna to my chimney, i am looking at the Channel Master CM 3016 . I would like to share the same coax as the cable usees so i guess i will need a Diplexer (?).

My total run will be over 50 feet, do you think i will need an ampliphier.

See i need lot's of help... :)

Since you're in NKY, I do believe that WSTR-DT is carried on Insight, but I may be wrong. Have you tried connecting even basic cable to your HDTV and do a scan? For getting locals only, this would actually be the easiest. But as far as amount of channels, OTA would be best.

I wouldn't combine the OTA signal and cable signal on the same coax. I would think that there would be some interference there that may prevent you from getting a solid signal. Since you're just wiring one TV, is it possible to run a coax just for the antenna?

From A Buick 8

08-08-07, 09:40 AM

I have not bought the HDTV yet, just trying to do the homework. Yes WSTR (64 RIGHT) is carried.

If i use a diplexer for running both cable and antenna on same coax would that work or is the diplexer just for a satalite

jimp2244

08-08-07, 09:43 AM

I am sure i will need help

Right now i want to attach the antenna to my chimney, i am looking at the Channel Master CM 3016 . I would like to share the same coax as the cable usees so i guess i will need a Diplexer (?).

My total run will be over 50 feet, do you think i will need an ampliphier.

See i need lot's of help... :)

Unfortunately I don't think a diplexer will work with cable, because the frequencies that cable uses overlap with the frequencies that your antenna will be receiving. I could be wrong on this but if my understanding of how they work is correct, then it won't work in your situation. That CM 3016 will most likely do fine for you for Cincinnati stations. You didn't mention the desire for Dayton channels, but that antenna may even receive some of them too. If you do desire the Dayton channels, you may want a larger antenna.

As for an amp, that is hard to say at this point. If you will be splitting the cable to multiple TVs it may be a good choice, or it also may help with the weaker Dayton channels. However it also may cause the Cincinnati stations to be too powerful as well. It's probably best to try without the amp first, and you can always try one later if you want.

Bill R (# 2)

08-08-07, 10:48 AM

Yes, WSTR (64 RIGHT) is carried.

Insight carries the analog feed of WSTR on channel 11. They do NOT carry the digital feed of the station (WSTR-DT) because the corporate office has not been able to reach an agreement with Sinclair (WSTR's parent company). Word is Sinclair wants more to carry their digital feeds. Lucky for us the station is a MyTV affiliate in Cincinnati so we aren't missing much HD by not having a digital feed of it on cable. If you have an ATSC tuner in your TV and a good antenna (or you are located close to the tower) you can always get it that way.

Bill R (# 2)

08-08-07, 11:00 AM

What new Dish channels are we getting in HD on the 15th?

Thanks!

"On Aug. 15, DISH Network will add seven national HD channels to its DishHD programming package, including MHD, featuring music programming from MTV, VH1 and CMT; Golf/Versus HD; Animal Planet HD; The Science Channel HD; TLC HD; Discovery HD, and History HD, which will debut on Sept. 1."

See this news article (http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/primenewswire/122674.htm).

psm0110

08-08-07, 07:58 PM

Thanks to everyone for all of the great input. I currently have the basic service from Insight , i want to upgrade to their next level (so the kids will have nick and disney and the wife will have HGTV). The only "HD" content i want is the local stations. I thought if the local HD was available through my QAM tuner that would be the most "simple" way to get the local HD stuff. I haven't checked since December of 2006, but at that time I was able to get a few of the locals via QAM on insight and we only had the basic package (free w/ broadband service). We've since moved to DSL and don't have any cable to check it with. I'd give QAM a shot first and then look an antenna. Unless you have dual tuners, combining regular cable and OTA will be a PITA. I've been using OTA since 2002 with no issue. Once I had the antenna positioned properly in the attic, I havent had to go back, took a couple days of fiddlin' initially tho

ansarar

08-08-07, 09:38 PM

jdhughes63

08-09-07, 08:45 AM

Today the Bengal's season starts. Let's hope that we get them in HD this year. Pro football always looks its best in HD and last year we got very few HD Bengal's games. WKRC has the game tonight.

Another football/HD problem always occured last year. When ever a station had to delay a network show they seemed unable to broadcast it in HD. So not only did we not get Bengals HD we also lost some of our network shows in HD.

You guys out there with brand new HD TVs this year be prepared to be disappointed on some game days whether it be your team in SD and not HD and at times the evening shows in SD also

mlbUC

08-09-07, 09:22 AM

CBS is doing more games in HD this year, so I am hoping we won't have to deal with any SD games for the whole regular season.

Bill R (# 2)

08-09-07, 10:10 AM

Today the Bengal's season starts. Let's hope that we get them in HD this year. Pro football always looks its best in HD and last year we got very few HD Bengal's games. WKRC has the game tonight.

Looking at the schedule for the NFL HD channel (DISH Network channel 9426) this evening it does have the Bengals game scheduled for 12 AM (delayed broadcast) so they are the ones actually broadcasting the game and allowing WKRC to show it on a non-delayed broadcast. I do hope that WKRC shows it in HD, but looking at their schedule I can't tell.

When I called the station to ask some air-head told me that "all WKRC-DT programs are in HD".

Nitewatchman

08-09-07, 03:41 PM

couple of comments :

Bengals preseason game tonight :

As Bill mentioned, Noticed NFL network has the game at 12am, but with WKEF also scheduled to air the game live tonight(at least in my listings for them), and what it says here regarding WKRC having the game:

http://www.bengals.com/team/Schedule.asp

My best guess was/is that the teams regional TV "networks" (how they usually do the preseason games, when a network doesn't have it) had the rights and they were "allowing"(not quite the right word, as I suspect there is a good chance they're might be "fees", or some sort of other deal involved - which who knows could involve HD equipment for the production, which doesn't necessarily mean WKRC can/will air the game HD) NFL Network to air it, delayed.

------------

HD from Net when Football games go into Primetime/etc:

Doc, weasel or others might remember the specifics on this more than I do -- but I'll take a stab at it .... I don't know if there have been any improvements regarding this yet, however, as long as I've been watching HD, CBS hasn't had enough net to affilate paths that support HD bandwidth/bitrates to send the affiliates running the games that run into primetime a HD feed of the prime time shows, and very very few stations(anywhere not just in cincinnati) have the capability to time shift HD from any network, or the resources to do so on such a time sensitive basis regarding switching in the local ad breaks+making the changes necessary on such a quick basis .... In fact, if I recall correctly there may have been times when the CBS HD feed for primetime *IS* Delayed as well, in which cases(which are probably rare because that probably usually happens with the national feed) any affiliates not showing those games don't get HD when prime time begins either ...

We've still got quite a ways to go before HD becomes as common as NTSC SD color video ....

JunkyardDogg

08-09-07, 04:46 PM

Tonight's Bengals Preseason game will not be in HD. It is being produced by the Bengals and they have decided against doing preseason in HD. The only game in preseason to be HD will be the one on ESPN-HD (WKRC will carry this game and should be in HD, like last year). As much cash as Mike Brown has, he could atleast spend some to produce the games in HD.

tbenson81

08-09-07, 06:05 PM

Beginning with the 2007 season, CBS will air five or six of Sunday's games in high-definition.

All games occuring Weeks 1, 5, 6, 9, 12 and 15 will be broadcast in high-definition.

jdhughes63

08-09-07, 07:56 PM

When I called the station to ask some air-head told me that "all WKRC-DT programs are in HD".
They obviously lied to you. The Bengals are on in SD tonight and Rob & Kit have never shown up in HD yet for the evening news.

Splicer010

08-09-07, 09:16 PM

TheColts/Cowboys game on FOX in HD AND surround is EXCELLENT!!! Pretty boring Bengals game...

DarkwingDuck

08-09-07, 09:39 PM

According to Kiesewetter's blog August 29th is when we'll get ESPN2 HD & ESPNU. However while they're giving they are also taking away. ESPN Classic is moving digital and be on the digital value tier with ESPNU. They are going to leave Channel 32 empty (Fox Business Channel perhaps?) for the moment and some other channels are being moved around. You can read the post Here (http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/tv/2007/08/espnu-espn2hd-arrive-august-29.asp)

Esoldano

08-09-07, 10:14 PM

I'm still new to the hd world, and i have a question. I was watching the bengals last night on channel 12 when I suddenly lost the digital signal on all my local channels. Does anyone know what caused this and how to fix it? Im with Dish at use a the VIP211 set top box with a terk antenna.

mlbUC

08-09-07, 10:19 PM

Reboot the box. Every once in a while the ATSC tuner locks up.

Bill R (# 2)

08-09-07, 11:03 PM

Reboot the box. Every once in a while the ATSC tuner locks up.

And the way you reboot a ViP211 is hold the front panel power button in until it restarts.

wish

08-10-07, 10:39 AM

Splicer010

08-10-07, 10:46 AM

Bill R (# 2)

08-10-07, 10:53 AM

Along with comments from others I was VERY disappointed that the Bengals game wasn't in HD.

For what its worth the game wasn't in HD on the NFL HD channel at 12:00 AM. The pickup was from the Detroit CW station and the local broadcasters they used were really poor.

jim tressler

08-10-07, 11:13 AM

bill - did you watch the whole game? typically the nfl network runs the home broadcasters for the first half and then the visitor broadcasters for the second half.

jim

wish

08-10-07, 01:08 PM

Check this out:
http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/tv/2007/08/only-one-bengals-preseason-game-in-hdtv.asp "All of the 16 regular season games probably will be in HDTV."

Thanks for the info. That's more than acceptable. I can live without HD for the preseason as long as it will be HD when the bullets are real.

jdhughes63

08-10-07, 04:44 PM

Along with comments from others I was VERY disappointed that the Bengals game wasn't in HD. I bought my 65" 1080p a month ago and have been waiting for the first Bengals game. As much a fan as I am I ended up switching to the Colts/Cowboys game for the wonderful picture.

I hope this isn't something to get used to once the regular season begins.
Same thing last year when my HDTV was new. Many games on CBS were in SD as well as delayed network shows. I hear things are improving this year.. More HD than last year. Some syndicated shows like Jeopardy and the Wheel are now on local HD. There is some talk that a local news show will be switching to HD also. Time will tell.

plughplover

08-10-07, 04:59 PM

Anyone else in here get the locals via a QAM tuner from Aelphia, now TW system(s)??? The unencrypted channels??? For me NBC goes off air @ 8PM sharp and does not return for hours. Anyone else notice this??? Does this happen when using a TW box instead of your own QAM tuner???
I'm not Adelphia, but I've been wrestling with this problem for 9 months now. Made contact with TWC and KET engrs, and am slowly making some headway.

For your information, what happens at 8PM is KET4, which is muxed into the same transport stream as WLWT by TWC, switches from SD to HD. When that occurs my set refuses to decode ANYTHING on that channel until KET4 ends their HD programming.

I would be VERY interested in knowing what make/model set you are using. I have recently come across info that there may be a firmware problem with certain LG sets.

I would also be VERY interested in contact info, as that would help me to convince TWC/KET/LG that this isn't an isolated occurance. I will PM you my info.

And anyone else having a problem with the WLWT+KET clear qam stream, please post your experience here!

Thanks

Bill R (# 2)

08-10-07, 09:20 PM

bill - did you watch the whole game? typically the nfl network runs the home broadcasters for the first half and then the visitor broadcasters for the second half.

jim

Jim,

No, I didn't. The Bengals game is being re-broadcasted on Tuesday at 10 AM on the NFL channel. I may record it just to see if they do that.

William Smith

08-10-07, 11:10 PM

As of today no one from TW has been in contact with me about any issues with the KET4 feed. I will say that when we first went on the air in 2002 TW Cincy did have an issue where they didn't allocate enough bandwidth to the KET4 feed to support the HD feed. I did work with one of their engineers to fix that issue but that's been a while ago.

plughplover

08-11-07, 09:31 AM

Mr. Smith -

In case you have not guessed, I am the person you exchanged emails with mid-july (Mike C. put me in touch with you). I copied some qam dtv captures to your ftp site on 7/13 as you requested; did you get a chance to run your analysis tool on them? I received no response to my follow-up email on 7/18...

re: TWC - I'm not surprised, as it has been an uphill battle trying to convince them there IS an issue. I eventually managed to speak with Mike B. (TWC head-end engr) who understood the issues I presented (interesting side note: he said they had similar probs with wcet at one time), but none-the-less still wanted field tech to come out and check signals and bit error rates (which came out clean as I expected they would). I spoke with Jack U. (TWC field engr) Friday, and I believe he's going to get back with Mike B. next week.

FYI - I had a nice phone conversation with 'splicer010' - He's out in Blanchester (one of the Adelphia folk TWC acquired) receives the WLWT+KET mux on channel 105, and (as he posted) has the same problem with it that I experience with that mux on channel 84 here in Fairfield. He also has ANOTHER problem with that stream - his receiver/decoder (also made by LG) seems to have trouble tieing the correct audio to the differant video streams in that particular mux. I found this to be interesting, as I have a _possibly_ related issue with my AccessDTV PC card and that mux.

I would suspect that this is an interoperabilty problem with LG chipsets, except that my AccessDTV card doesn't use them. Specifically:
LG 30FS4D - LGDT3033 8vsb/qam demod, LGDT1102C decoder (from service manual)
AccessDTV - Nxtwave (now ATI) nxt2000 demod, Teralogic Janus decoder
However, so far (with a sample size of two) it appears only LG chipsets show the _reproducable_ problem with that TWC mux and the KET4 SD->HD transition.

I was toying with the idea of contacting the two authorized LG service shops here in Cincy and seeing if I could get them to test any clear-qam capable LG sets they get in for repair against the 8PM KET4 transition (assuming they have a TWC feed in their shops). That might give some indication as to how *potentially* widespread the issue is, and help counter the 'if there was a problem we'd have heard about it already' response I keep getting from everyone.

There IS a problem. For whatever reason(s), people experiencing it are not elevating / reporting it. Frankly, I suspect many of the 'consumers' who have discovered that their set actually receives some digital channels are simply figuring that the only way they can _legally_ get these clear-qam channels off the cable is to pay TWC for HD service, and so aren't reporting problems they have with the unencrypted feeds out of fear (TWC doesn't exactly advertise the fact that these unencrypted feeds are available to EVERYONE).

Anyway, I'm glad to see you post a reply here, and hope we can work together to resolve this issue.

terryfoster

08-11-07, 09:44 AM

Jim,

No, I didn't. The Bengals game is being re-broadcasted on Tuesday at 10 AM on the NFL channel. I may record it just to see if they do that.

I saw a bit of the replay last night and NFLNET was using the WKRC feed during the second half.

JunkyardDogg

08-11-07, 11:40 AM

WXIX-DT is stuttering again, atleast on my end. If you have a chance, those that were seeing the problem before, check it this weekend during filmed shows. If it is confirmed, I'll get talking with them again.

Splicer010

08-11-07, 11:47 AM

Nitewatchman

08-11-07, 12:54 PM

Splicer010,

If you're interested in what's causing the WXIX-DT video to effect only some decoders and cause video "stuttering" (dropped frames is another way to put it, the audio is fine)during programming sourced from film(or probably sourced from say, 24p HD video) that is processed by WXIX's local encoder( not Fox programming which is encoded at network level+effectively bypasses the local encoder) you might want to read our somewhat recent previous discussions on the issue in this thread.

Update: Also keep in mind the transport stream we receive OTA is the same stream which is sent to the cableco. Many stations are picked up by the cableco OTA, and many use fiber --- Either way(or if something else is used), it's the same stream in most(any that I know of around here) cases. They may change some things(such as PID's) or do rate shaping in some cases, but, unless something has changed recently I don't think there is a decode/reencode process involved in most cases, one exception would be via D*, where it's reencoded with MPEG4.

WXIX-DT is stuttering again, atleast on my end. If you have a chance, those that were seeing the problem before, check it this weekend during filmed shows. If it is confirmed, I'll get talking with them again.

Yes, happening again here same as the last time+same as on previous occasions with other stations sending 720p when they've had settings such as "repeat field detection" turned on on their encoder, and only with ZenithHDV420 decoder here(again, regardless of resolution output by STB, or regardless of pulldown settings at the display). As allways when this issue arises, other decoders here are handling it fine, no dropped frames during programming sourced from film/etc. I have the chipset the Zenith uses written down somewhere or a pic of the top of it, but can't dig it up currently - Do recall It's a "mix" of either LG 2nd or 3rd and 4th generation chips.

BTW, Think It was thursday during 70's show I first noticed it happening again.

Update: just a guess Perhaps they reset their new encoder or something(or it lost power)+the film detection setting you had mentioned also became "reset" to a "on" default ... and, perhaps they aren't monitoring with an effected decoder, as I'd guess there is a good chance they may not even have one to test it with ...

microbob

08-11-07, 03:32 PM

Yes, I'm seeing the dropped frames/stuttering problem on filmed material during local programming on my LCD TV. I don't see it on my Zenith HD CRT though.

JunkyardDogg

08-12-07, 07:43 PM

Sent an email to WXIX.

JunkyardDogg

08-13-07, 03:32 PM

The stuttering video on WXIX-DT should be fixed.

Looks like PBS is launching a new channel, PBS World, and CET plans on carrying it. I don't know if KET/WPTD/WPTO will carry it. So if WCET adds this to their digital OTA spectrum, I suspect our picture quality will go down. Currently, it is PBS HD and CrEaTe, with them dropping CET Kids some time ago. I know someone did some analysis on their signal and found that they were not using all of their bandwidth, possible datacasting and that Disney movie thing. PBS World debuts on Weds. Aug, 15th. So hopefully the HD isn't totally killed by this.

Nitewatchman

08-13-07, 08:04 PM

Speaking of KET, noticed beginning a week or two ago they have "combined" KET3+4's SD School/educational programming into "KET ED" -- Which according to their website is currently running on both KET3+4 for a few months to give a chance for educators/etc to get used to it. And, they have plans to have a new channel with all KY programming(something I'll be looking foward to) for KET 3 20 hours a day (when they are not in HD mode) .... See the info here:

http://www.ket.org/dtv/channels.htm

---------------------------------------------------------

Regarding CET, what I've been wondering is what they're going to do post feb 17, 2009, given that, unlike all other PBS stations in the area, they aren't currently simulcasting a 480i SD digital version of their analog station ... And, for that matter, I've also been wondering if PBS is going to make any/many changes regarding PBS HD channel, and what improvements(or otherwise) we might see regarding OTA HD from the 4 cincy/Dayton PBS member stations post feb 2009 ...

Anyway, back to CET ... I was wondering(just hoping anyway:) if maybe they might drop Create, as they have been saying the new "world" service would be on 48.2 .... WPTD-DT does offer create 12 hr a day, but I dunno how many cable viewers in Cincinnati get WPTD's digital services .....

Anyway, I thought the moviebeam thing used analog station(dunno if WCET was ever involoved), but I haven't followed any info on that one. I do know at one time I'd heard CET was experimenting with some datacasting services on the digital, dunno if that's still going on, or how long it lasted.

TSreader says WCET-DT Bandwidth currently is allocated as follows :

pid 0x0031 (CET 1080i HD Video) = 68% 13.22Mb/s
PID ox1fff (usage unknown) = 17% - 3.31 Mb/s
Pid 0x0041 (CET create video) = 10.9% / 2.11Mb/s
pid 0x0034 (2.18% 423Kb/s) = 2.18% - CET HD DD 5.1 Audio
PID 0x0044 (1.03% - 199.75Kb/s) = 1.03% - CET create audio ..

The rest is around 75Kb/s or so for stuff such as streams for stuff such as PSIP...

JunkyardDogg

08-13-07, 08:19 PM

Jeff, you are probably right about Moviebeam using the analog transmission and I also don't know if WCET was participating in that. I haven't seen many of the promos concerning PBS World, but with 3.31 Mb/s not being used for video, it may be for datacast, you would think they would just use that bandwidth for the channel. Perhaps after Wednesday we should contact WCET and ask what that bandwidth is being used for. If nothing, have them adjust the settings to give 48.1 more bandwidth.

I like what KET is doing as they seem to have their act together out of all the local PBS stations. Looks like they are datacasting too, but you wouldn't be able to tell as their HD looks pretty good. The 1080i -> 720p conversion really seems to help. I should buy one of those cards so I could read the data on each of the channels. Are they available in a USB external model?

Nitewatchman

08-13-07, 08:39 PM

I haven't seen many of the promos concerning PBS World, but with 3.31 Mb/s not being used for video ..

Well, I should have mentioned that's not a "static" thing, and the figures I posted were just what was happening at that specific moment ... It appears they are probably using stat mux to allocate more bandwidth to the different services as needed.

For instance, glancing at it over the past several minutes, the HD stream has went as high as right around 14Mb/s, and the last time I looked at it much, I think I recall seeing it peak as high as 15Mb/s ....

I should buy one of those cards so I could read the data on each of the channels. Are they available in a USB external model?

Yes -- but if you want to use TSreader, make sure it supports the model you are looking at, as there is probably some hardware out there that isn't supported. I do believe it supports the Hauppauge HVR950(USB Stick tuner), and it will (or at least should) support any hardware that is using "BDA" ATSC drivers(which is what I'm using with it with Hauppauge HVR1600 PCI(internal) ...

You might want to start here :

http://www.coolstf.com/tsreader/

jim tressler

08-14-07, 08:38 AM

The dvico fusion 5 works with tsreader.. last check you could get the fusion 5 usb or pci for $149

Well, I should have mentioned that's not a "static" thing, and the figures I posted were just what was happening at that specific moment ... It appears they are probably using stat mux to allocate more bandwidth to the different services as needed.

For instance, glancing at it over the past several minutes, the HD stream has went as high as right around 14Mb/s, and the last time I looked at it much, I think I recall seeing it peak as high as 15Mb/s ....

Yes -- but if you want to use TSreader, make sure it supports the model you are looking at, as there is probably some hardware out there that isn't supported. I do believe it supports the Hauppauge HVR950(USB Stick tuner), and it will (or at least should) support any hardware that is using "BDA" ATSC drivers(which is what I'm using with it with Hauppauge HVR1600 PCI(internal) ...

You might want to start here :

http://www.coolstf.com/tsreader/

JunkyardDogg

08-14-07, 01:44 PM

Per the CET wedsite and the television blog on cincinnati.com, PBS World will be replacing Create on 48.2.

dtv insider

08-14-07, 03:27 PM

Anyway, I thought the moviebeam thing used analog station(dunno if WCET was ever involoved), but I haven't followed any info on that one. I do know at one time I'd heard CET was experimenting with some datacasting services on the digital, dunno if that's still going on, or how long it lasted.

MovieBeam is on WCET analog and I have heard that it will be coming to WCET-DT after analog shut-off.

Nitewatchman

08-14-07, 07:58 PM

^ thanks for the info, DTVinsider ...

Wonder what sort of other DTV applications we might see in the future involving non-real time delivery of video ...

The stuttering video on WXIX-DT should be fixed.

Yep, looks good here on the decoder I have which was effected by the problem during programming sourced from film I've checked Today, including currently during "Seinfeld"...

Also, it may be just me or the quality of the source material for the videos I've been watching a bit of Today, but, it seems to me "The Tube" quality seems better than it has been.

Splicer010

08-14-07, 08:13 PM

Also, it may be just me or the quality of the source material for the videos I've been watching a bit of Today, but, it seems to me "The Tube" quality seems better than it has been.
Have you noticed the video/audio sync out of whack on the tube? It happens on OTA & the cable feed...OTA it happens on 3 different receivers by 2 different manufacturers...

Nitewatchman

08-14-07, 08:26 PM

Also concerning the tube from WXIX-DT, I've seen some nasty looking interlace artifacts on certian videos ... thought that might be gone today, but alas, seeing it on the video that is playing currently ...

Generally, however The Video on The Tube doesn't look all that great anyway, including from other stations I've seen it on (WKEF-DT/WDKY-DT (which no longer have it) or WAVE-DT Louisville.

Have you noticed the video/audio sync out of whack on the tube?

Not very often, but occasionally have(regardless of the receiver used), including the first time I tuned to them today. When I checked back later, A/V sync was fine from them.

I can't say if it was on their end, today, but on occasion when I've verifed it has been. As, Sometimes when this sort of thing happens I've noticed on just about any decoder I've used if you change channels+then back, sync will often be restored, and I didn't try that test with them today when I noticed it out of sync ...

Splicer010

08-14-07, 08:31 PM

Watching TP right now and sync is off...

Nitewatchman

08-14-07, 08:37 PM

^ If it is during "While my Guitar Gently Weeps", or the Dance music commerical afterwards(with vocals+video of the artist singing), I'm not noticing it here ...

update: the interlacing issue is horribly noticable during the dance music video though ....

sync looks good for Sheryl Crow Video as well .... This video surely would look a lot nicer in HD .....

Splicer010

08-14-07, 08:52 PM

Yup...Sheryl WOULD look nice in HD... :D

Right now Genisis is just starting...I will see if it happens on this video as well...Generally it is like evry other to every third video I've noticed...Seems Phil is right on this video...

Splicer010

08-14-07, 09:15 PM

'No Doubt' sync was off as well but the Red Hot Chili Peppers before it looked fine.

Nitewatchman

08-14-07, 09:15 PM

Yup...Sheryl WOULD look nice in HD... :D

She does ... She was on HD Soundstage on PBS, If I recall correctly think it was one of the first shows from the first season they did it HD ... (~2002 or 2003 or so) ...

Splicer010

08-14-07, 09:27 PM

Cracker is off...DMB is in sync...Paolo Nutin is in sync...

Splicer010

08-14-07, 09:30 PM

She does ... She was on HD Soundstage on PBS, If I recall correctly think it was one of the first shows from the first season they did it HD ... (~2002 or 2003 or so) ...
Sorry I missed it... :(

mlbUC

08-14-07, 10:07 PM

She has a DVD out that they've shown on both Voom's RAVE HD channel and on HDNet. It was filmed at Fraze in Kettering, looks very good. I saw her a few weeks back when she was in town, looked pretty damn good in person as well.

Nitewatchman

08-14-07, 11:53 PM

Cracker is off.....

LOL I wasn't monitoring it when you noticed the sync issues, sorry ...

From what you've described though, and again, I've seen it off as well occasionally, it seems to me it's probably an issue on their end ...

plughplover

08-15-07, 01:46 PM

update:

re: TWC [...] it has been an uphill battle trying to convince them there IS an issue. I eventually managed to speak with Mike B. (TWC head-end engr) who understood the issues I presented (interesting side note: he said they had similar probs with wcet at one time), but none-the-less still wanted field tech to come out and check signals and bit error rates (which came out clean as I expected they would). I spoke with Jack U. (TWC field engr) Friday, and I believe he's going to get back with Mike B. next week.

Just got off the phone with Jack U.

Jack U. and Mike B. monitored the KET4 transition both OTA and off the cable, and I'm told their sets reacted by blanking out for a period of time; however, both sets eventually recovered. I believe they are going to do another test and 'watch' WLWT-DT off cable during the KET4 transition. Didn't catch what was used for the OTA test, but tests of cable signal are using a Philips set.

FYI - I had a nice phone conversation with 'splicer010' - He's out in Blanchester (one of the Adelphia folk TWC acquired) receives the WLWT+KET mux on channel 105, and (as he posted) has the same problem with it that I experience with that mux on channel 84 here in Fairfield. He also has ANOTHER problem with that stream - his receiver/decoder (also made by LG) seems to have trouble tieing the correct audio to the differant video streams in that particular mux.
I passed this on to Jack U., who said it was very interesting as the Adelphia folk are still using Adelphia head-end; they are not getting fed signal from Blue Ash head-end.

I would suspect that this is an interoperabilty problem with LG chipsets, except that my AccessDTV card doesn't use them. Specifically:
LG 30FS4D - LGDT3033 8vsb/qam demod, LGDT1102C decoder (from service manual)
AccessDTV - Nxtwave (now ATI) nxt2000 demod, Teralogic Janus decoder
However, so far (with a sample size of two) it appears only LG chipsets show the _reproducable_ problem with that TWC mux and the KET4 SD->HD transition.

Contacted LG, placed a service call. Talked to local service shop, explained problem, suggested they check for firmware upgrades. After a few days got a call back; they talked to LG, were told LG was aware of some similar reports, but had no firmware updates at this time. I was asked to check back in a couple months.

So, it seems I am slowly making some progress.

And I'd (still) appreciate any test reports from others with regard to observations of this wlwt+ket TWC mux before/during/after the 8:00pm KET4 transition.

Nitewatchman

08-15-07, 05:28 PM

Jack U. and Mike B. monitored the KET4 transition both OTA and off the cable, and I'm told their sets reacted by blanking out for a period of time; however, both sets eventually recovered.

Interesting. It's allways been a seemless change here(OTA), including BTW with LG+ATI chipsets. If I blink when it happens, I pretty much miss it other than noticing the change in audio/resolution/programming .....

The only oddity I have seen is that after the change back to 4x3 480i, My Sony KD34XBR960 HDTV is in it's "full" screen mode("stretched" 4x3 fills the 16x9 screen), instead of whatever screen mode I had last used for any 480i/NTSC SD program service - Which is what I get with all other 480i/SD program services --- And, it stays that way on KET4 in 480i mode until I change it to something else (such as "zoom" or "normal"(4x3 with sidebars added by the display) ....

Nitewatchman

08-15-07, 07:21 PM

And, for that matter, I've also been wondering if PBS is going to make any/many changes regarding PBS HD channel...

Well, It seems I just found the answer to that question in comments submitted by APTS/PBS to FCC regarding FCC's 3rd DTV review. In those comments, available here(PDF) :

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6519611232

It says by Fall 2008, PBS will distribute it's "main" feed ("NPS/National program service) in HD ... Specifically it says they will be "essentially merging the NPS and PBS's HD channel" ...

I wonder if we'll still see a lot of SD widescreen as is the case currently on PBS HD channel ...

Nitewatchman

08-15-07, 08:49 PM

quick LP digital update ..

On 8/13/07 FCC has granted WBQC construction permit for channel 20, 15 KW ERP(directional pattern), 1522FT Above sea Level (679 feet up on WCPO tower).

Note: The "ld" callsign desgination for WBQC-LD stands for "Low power digital".

So, now all the LP's that transmit from Cincinnati have digital Construction Permits :

W36DG (TBN) - Flash cut on 36 to digital.

WBQC 38 (IND) - Digital companion channel 20.

WOTH-LP 25 (A1/Ind) - Digital companion channel 47.

----------------------------------------------

Wonder when we'll see one of these on the air?

Also, we don't know yet when FCC is going to require LP's to shut down their analogs -- depending upon when that is(especially if it's sooner rather than later), I'd guess it's possible in some cases it might not make sense for some stations that have digital companion channels(such as WOTH/WBQC) to build out the digital station, unless perhaps they plan/want to use the digital companion channel allocation after they shut off their analog(then they'll no longer be able to transmit on the analog channel #), rather than use their current analog channel for digital ....

Splicer010

08-15-07, 09:13 PM

I passed this on to Jack U., who said it was very interesting as the Adelphia folk are still using Adelphia head-end; they are not getting fed signal from Blue Ash head-end.

Thats what I thought when we had 2 different channels ;) . We were talking about 2 different headends/hubsites (the one I asked about & you thought was abandoned).

Interesting. It's allways been a seemless change here(OTA), including BTW with LG+ATI chipsets.
It isn't an OTA issue...never was. It is a cable issue that at least the LG sets have an issue with. :confused:

Nitewatchman

08-15-07, 09:33 PM

It isn't an OTA issue...never was. It is a cable issue that at least the LG sets have an issue with. :confused:

I know that. Thought It was obvious I was responding specifically to the below comment/report regarding their OTA. While at the same time, given the lack of response from others(besides William of course) on the issue so far, taking the time/oppurtunity to provide info/report regarding the fact that LG/ATI chipsets I'm using are working just fine with the KET streams, OTA. As I know sometimes with this sort of thing regarding any sort of available "data point" can sometimes be of some help. Probably not, but you never know ....

Jack U. and Mike B. monitored the KET4 transition both OTA and off the cable, and I'm told their sets reacted by blanking out for a period of time;

---------

Update: Anyway, I haven't studied much how this is done by the cableco's with QAM and for applications using rate shaping/etc(or if TW is doing that) ... But I'm curious about this ... Basically, If I am understand the posts on this correctly, I'm wondering why TW is multiplexing WCVN-DT/WLWT-DT streams together (presumably into a single TS) ....

With QAM 256, which has roughly 2x the payload of ATSC 8VSB(and therefore they can "fit" the streams from 2 Broadcast DTV stations(19.39Mb/s each) unmodified into a single 6MHZ channel) -- I have read that there are/can be at least two "slots" per 6MHZ QAM channel -- Again, I'm not up to speed on the specifics of that, but I wonder if they could put, for example, WCVN-DT/KET TS in one slot, and WLWT-DT's TS in another slot on that same channel, therefore not requiring them to be mux'ed together?

Especially given that they're carrying all their programming services(although they probably wouldn't need KET's datacast streams and could strip that out) ? Or, is it that they are doing rate shaping/etc. and are squeezing even more than 2 ATSC TS's into one channel, or something along those lines?

I guess what I'm wondering is, if they didn't MUX the WLWT/WCVN streams together, I wonder if you guys would still be seeing this issue ... I do know someone had reported here sometime ago that TW changed the PID's from local broadcast DTV streams in order to distrubute those streams on their system, but that they did not do anything else to the streams (no decode/reencode process/etc) ... In that case, other than the QAM demod being "different" and assuming no PID's would be duplicate addresses on the same QAM channel or "slot", I would generally "assume"/think if the streams decode OK OTA, wouldn't it seem that it should work delivered via cable as well ? If they are Multiplexing streams from different stations together -- At the moment, I still can't think of why that might be any different outcome ... But of course, if we've learned anything here, if anything CAN happen .......

plughplover

08-15-07, 09:56 PM

Interesting. It's allways been a seemless change here(OTA), including BTW with LG+ATI chipsets. If I blink when it happens, I pretty much miss it other than noticing the change in audio/resolution/programming
I was kind of surprised when Jack U. told me his set (at home in Western Hills) blanked when the OTA signal switched, but all I can do is report his results. I'll ask what his equipment was next time I talk to him.

Unfortunately, I can't get much of any Cincy OTA which is why I'm dependant on TWC. I live in a condo, on the north side of a hill, north of Cincy. Major RF shadow... Can get some multipath reflection off the hills to the north of me, but not reliable. If I position things just right I can get 64 ok, but the towers further south are problematic. On the other hand, I get all the Dayton stations great with minimal antenna in attic.

Since you know what chipsets you are using, would be very interested in how they handle the twc clear-qam mux during that transition.

plughplover

08-15-07, 10:21 PM

Update: Anyway, I haven't studied much how this is done by the cableco's with QAM and for applications using rate shaping/etc(or if TW is doing that) ... But I'm curious about this ... Basically, If I am understand the posts on this correctly, I'm wondering why TW is multiplexing WCVN-DT/WLWT-DT streams together (presumably into a single TS) ....

With QAM 256, which has roughly 2x the payload of ATSC 8VSB(and therefore they can "fit" the streams from 2 Broadcast DTV stations(19.39Mb/s each) unmodified into a single 6MHZ channel)

Yes, because they can accomodate the bitrate. And yes, it means they have to "re-write" portions of the streams to get PAT PMT PIDs etc 'correct' for the combined stream. They also do this with WXIX+WCET on 85 and WCPO+WKRC on 86 (on the feed I receive from Blue Ash head-end). I don't have any problems with the streams on 85 or 86, just 84 (WLWT+KET).

FWIW, Mike B. told me they get their WLWT feed via fiber and the KET feed OTA.

I've done captures of all three streams (MDP-130 card) and run them through tsreader lite trying to see what's differant. I've also tried to compare the 84 stream before/after the KET4 transition. There are some characteristics of the 84 stream that change / are differant (for example, I show crc errors on ONLY the PSIP data), but whether these are the cause, I don't know... I was hoping William Smith (above - KET engr) might find something in the captures, copied some to his ftp site at his request, but have not heard back yet.

Definitely perplexing...

Nitewatchman

08-15-07, 10:34 PM

I was kind of surprised when Jack U. told me his set (at home in Western Hills) blanked when the OTA signal switched, but all I can do is report his results.

I just wonder how long that "blank screen" lasted ... I haven't noticed it here, but if it was just a couple of seconds/etc, I wouldn't necessarily think that was unusual, and probably wouldn't have commented on it but ...

It was the part where you said it "eventually recovered" that hasn't matched my experience, as I read it as if he was describing a long prolonged period ....

Since you know what chipsets you are using, would be very interested in how they handle the twc clear-qam mux during that transition.

Sorry, If I could check it I would, but afraid I can't help you there. For one thing, Cableco does not serve my rural/outlying location. The location in my profile doesn't really describe my actual location very well, it's just my "zip code"+address, and is as near as any other town I suppose, more or less ;)

Also, My ZenithHDV420 Reciever(8VSB only/LG chipset of course) and USDTV/Hisense Box(ATI/NXT2004 chipset If I recall correctly) don't do QAM. The receiver internal to my Sony XBR960 HDTV(which weighs over 200lbs or so, I'm not sure but think it does have ATI chipset, only judging by a block diagram in Service manual that says only "ATI" where it should be -- can't see it without removing circuit boards+opening the tuner can, the latter which I ain't going to do) and I think new beta drivers support QAM for my Hauppague HVR1600(internal PCI - use it in HTPC) - The later which uses LG's 5th generation chipset, but has no Hardware MPEG2 decoder .. ..

So, in other words I don't really have anything I could easily test temporarily elsewhere with QAM, either ...

Anyway, hopefully you'll get some replies from others who can report on what they're getting with their equipment and TW's Mux .....

Splicer010

08-15-07, 11:05 PM

OTA I get NO blanking...At 8PM on cable I loose EVERYTHING, WLWT, Weather Plus, all the KET channels until promptly at midnight when all is well again.

Nitewatchman

08-16-07, 01:42 AM

Yes, because they can accomodate the bitrate. And yes, it means they have to "re-write" portions of the streams to get PAT PMT PIDs etc 'correct' for the combined stream. They also do this with WXIX+WCET on 85 and WCPO+WKRC on 86 (on the feed I receive from Blue Ash head-end). I don't have any problems with the streams on 85 or 86, just 84 (WLWT+KET).

Yes, I realize that --- Just merely out of curiousity my question was, from a purely "can it be done" techincal standpoint -- do they have to do it that way ? Or can it work like this+the receiver demodulate it properly. (Note -- again, sorry, I'm not up to speed on exactly what it means when I've heard they can use "two QAM slots per 6MHZ channel" - Detailed technical information/white papers from ATSC are available, for free+downloadable from ATSC website on just about everything they do(including 8VSB, PSIP/etc), I haven't found that to be the case regarding QAM or what "cable companies do" which is why I'm asking this ) :

channel 84 slot one - WCVN-DT or WLWT-DT transport stream (payload rate approx 19Mb/s)

Channel 84 slot two - WCVN-DT or WLWT-DT transport stream(payload approx 19mb/s)

BTW, The available payload is roughly 2x more in 6MHZ channel with QAM256 vs. 8VSB because of the FEC and Trellis coding used for robust over the air transmission/reception - not needed when sending the RF signal over a wire ....

FWIW, Mike B. told me they get their WLWT feed via fiber and the KET feed OTA.

Shouldn't matter .. It's the same encoded stream, and comes out of the same encoder(s), no matter how it's sent to the cableco ... while it's possible for a station to use seperate encoders for the OTA feed and any other feed(such as via fiber to cableco), I don't know of any doing that in this area, as they're is generally no need for it. I have heard of a couple of PBS stations elsewhere however which are sending cableco a 19.39Mb/s PBS HD channel feed to cableco, and another 19mb/s with SD multicast services ..... While that sounds good for cable viewers(and perhaps even OTA viewers who don't give a whit about HD but want as many "channels" as possible) personally, Such a station would not be very sucessful in soliciting "donations" from me .... Why would I want to contribute funds in order to help an organization send higher quality service to cable viewers which I can't receive OTA, and again, I can't get cable even if I wanted it ????

I've done captures of all three streams (MDP-130 card) and run them through tsreader lite trying to see what's differant. I've also tried to compare the 84 stream before/after the KET4 transition. There are some characteristics of the 84 stream that change / are differant (for example, I show crc errors on ONLY the PSIP data), but whether these are the cause, I don't know...

Definitely perplexing...

Well, if it wasn't perplexing it wouldn't be as fun to troubleshoot such problems ;) ... Just kidding, I've had enough of this sort of thing that I could do without any more "perplexing stuff" for a while at this point ....

Just some thoughts follow FWIW, just in case they are of any help with your troubleshooting process ...Of course, however, really, I think the best thing would probably be for them to contact William on this .... And do keep in mind that he might be somewhat limited to what he can say here about it for various reasons .....

There is no way I can find it, now, but I wish I could direct you to William's posts(I think in other threads which would be in the archive area now) regarding how the KET4 "transistion" from 480i to 720p and back "works"/how they do it, as perhaps it might help you out a bit regarding troubleshooting what *may* be going on+your communication with them ...

If I remember correctly (William if any of this isn't OK let me know+I'll pull it,and/or definitely correct my mistakes!), and I am certianly foggy on the details, and again this is from a while ago so some of the details may have changed, basically+generally ... :

First, probably mostly unrelated but might be helpful to say KET1+2 share one bandwidth pool(and these services are there continuously 24/7), and KET3~6 share another bandwidth pool ... Of course, they're all in the same transport stream(as sent by KET) and MUX, but for purposes of this post, we don't have to "think" about what is going on with KET1+2 as it should be unrelated to the problem issue ...

When what appears to be a "switch" in resolution to 720p occurs on KET4, as if an encoder at KET was being "switched" from 480i to 720p along with a change of HD being fed into it rather than SD --- What is really happening is the MUX is switched such that what was the mux for KET3~6 SD services is now a single "different"(720pHD) stream that is on KET4 which is "replacing" the KET3~6 streams with a single stream, and vice versa when the switch goes the other way(KET4 back to 480i) at 12am, and the 720p stream is replaced with a mux of 4 (KET3~6) 480i SD streams ....(note, again I'm mostly keeping KET1+2 out of this for simplicity sake, as there are really 6 SD streams total - although don't know if TW carries KET5 or 6 which is KY state gov't coverage+is only active with programming fairly rarely when general assembly/etc. are in session) --

What I notice with TSreader OTA, is that when KET is in "HD mode", PSIP wise everything is there for KET3~6 that is there when they are in "SD mode"(6 Multicast services, usually with KET5+6 up with barker screen) ... EIT/ETT info(stuff such as the EPG info), VCT (virtual channel table) ....

What *IS* apparent with TSreader(I can probably see this in a service menu diagnostic screen on the sony as well, but haven't checked it) that is different is that the PID's for the elementary video/audio streams+associated descriptors/etc. "disappear" for KET3, 5+6 when they are in HD mode, and reappear when they are in "SD mode", which of course makes sense ... The PID address for KET4 remain the same(0x0061 Video, 0x0064 audio) -

Now -- Also, perhaps of some relevance here involves your comment regarding the TW folks saying they ran into some "similar problems" with WCET At one time. For a time, WCET-DT was doing something different with their multicast services than they are now -- As I recall(and I'm a little hazy on this as it's been a while+it was before I had a way to look at the streams with TSreader), they would have Streams and associated PAT/PMT and PSIP data for 1 HD+2 SD multicast services in the evenings and 4 SD services during the day ... using the "remapped" channel #'s as specificed in PSIP VCT(virtual channel table) Which is what most ATSC receivers use --- you'd have 48.1(HD), 48.2 and 48.3 at night, and 48.2, 48.3, 48.4, 48.5(all SD) during the day. But, for example, EVERYTHING they sent for 48.1 would "disappear" during the day ... No PSIP, no PID's, no video/audio streams, nothing. With OTA receivers which "updated" their VCT info to match what the station is sending at the time everytime you tune to that station -- In this case for WCET-DT, 48.1 would not be there during the day(which is how my Zenith HDV420 works), but on other OTA receivers which only update their VCT info when a channel scan is run, 48.1 would be there, just blank ... This was a real problem for receivers which only updated their VCT info when you "scanned" for channels, as on those receivers, if you scanned during the day, you would NOT see 48.1 at night, and if you scanned at night, you would not see 48.4+48.5 during the day ...... This isn't an issue with KET/WCVN-DT, as the PSIP info is allways there .... Also, Currently, of course, nothing "changes" anymore with WCET-DT's program services, as they are the same 24/7 ....

Also, In contrast, nothing changes regarding PID's, PSIP/etc. on the other two PBS member stations in the area which do a "switch" between "HD mode" and SD mode - Those being The ThinkTV stations --- WPTO-DT or WPTD-DT when they change between 4 channel SD multicast "mode" and 1HD+2SD mode. When they are "blank"(you might still see a logo on a "blank" channel), the "blank" services(subchannels) just drop to low bandwidth usage .. For example, With WPTD-DT currently in HD mode, PID for a "blank" SD subchannel shows about 300Kb/s -- 12 hours from now, when it's active with programming, it will be using a few Mb/s ...

---------------------------
In attached graphic, at Left is PMT "tree" from TSreader for KET3~KET6 (OTA stream) when they are in 6 channel SD multicast mode.(oops, sorry I forgot to expand the detailed info for the elementary streams to show some of the info on the various descriptors/etc)

AT right is the PMT "tree" for KET3~6(OTA stream) when they are in "HD mode" ...

plughplover

08-16-07, 09:32 AM

A lot to digest there...

I've never heard of 'qam slots', but in any event TWC ain't doing it.

Would you be interested in looking at a couple of my qam captures? Since I can't get these OTA, I'm a bit hampered in my ability to compare TWC to OTA. I don't think my set uses the PSIP data (no channel remapping, no guide info, ...) for QAM streams (it does for OTA), but the fact that I consistently show PSIP CRC errors on the 84 stream but not for 85/86 is one of the differences that caught my eye. (I wonder if TWC 're-write' is causing the crc errors)

From what I can observe, I believe my set 'learns' the PAT/PMT info when you first tune a channel and seems to cache it. A power off clears this. In the context of 84, if I tune before the transition, it will learn and remember the id's: wlwt 84-1, ket1 84-3, ket2 84-4, ket3 84-5, ket4 84-6, ket5 84-17, ket6 84-18, weather 84-33

After the ket4 transition, it will still allow me to step between these, but I get 'No signal' on all of them.

If I power off/on and tune 84 after the transition, it seems it can't find any of the mapping info.

And this is similar to the general problem I have with the Accessdtv card (nxt2000+janus)on 84; there are random times when it seems to loose track of the mappings, and/or extremely long 'sync' times when trying to tune to the channel. And this seems related to splicer010's _other_ problem of correctly associating the differant A/V's together. (I'll let him describe that one himself).

So far, the MDP-130 card (nxt2004+Janus) seems to be pretty good at handling whatever is going on with 84; only problem I've had with IT has been a few system crashes - ONLY when trying to capture 84, of course. However no tuning, 'sync up', or transition issues.

I'll ponder your post and poke at things some more...

Splicer010

08-16-07, 11:05 AM

A lot to digest there...

Would you be interested in looking at a couple of my qam captures? I'm still waiting for those myself. ;) And this is similar to the general problem I have with the Accessdtv card (nxt2000+janus)on 84; there are random times when it seems to loose track of the mappings, and/or extremely long 'sync' times when trying to tune to the channel. And this seems related to splicer010's _other_ problem of correctly associating the differant A/V's together. (I'll let him describe that one himself). Are you talking about the audio issue when going between up and back down? Or the lip sync issue on 'The Tube'?

Nitewatchman

08-16-07, 01:44 PM

A lot to digest there...

Trying to think about what may be going on, There are just so many things to think about(some/many of which I'm probably not even thinking about at all) it's easy to go off on a "tangent" ... and, it just takes way too many words to try to go through just some of them, especially when you don't really quite know what is happening and are trying to guess what *may* be going on, LOL ....

To simplify a bit what I was trying to do more than anything else was to point out that it seems where there have been some sort of problem with this has been when stations are adding/removing program streams from their Mux along with whatever happens with TW's MUX when that happens -- In the past for a time with WCET-DT, and it seems with WCVN-DT/KET as well ... ... And, AFAIK, there's been no such issue reported that would solely involve stations with elementary streams(audio/video) which remain "static" including involving PMT/PAT and PID's involved ...

Although it may be the case, I'm not sure at this point I would necessarily be leaning towards "blaming" what is happening on a receiver/chipset specific "issue" -- Instead, I would venture a wild guess that perhaps some are having the issue and some aren't more because, it is very apparent different receivers often handle little things differently, and not necessarily from a 'chipset specific' perspective -- could be something involving the firmware, or even how the manufactuer has chosen to implement what I'll call, certian "channel/program stream" selection "issues" ....

so, I would venture a WAG the problem may have more to do with what is happening in regards to the "removal"(so to speak) of the Elementary streams for KET3, 5+6 when KET4 is 720p, and the PID's for those elementary streams AND what TW is doing regarding the necessary "rewriting"/changing of the PID's involved more than anything else ...

For example(and this may relate to some of your comments regarding how your set behaves in identifying/storing the Program streams in different situations -- before transistion on KET4, after it/etc) -- on *some* of the effected decoders/receivers, -- I wonder if it is possible this problem is "fixed"(but only between 8pm~12am) if you were to do a complete channel "rescan" between 8pm+12am? In which case, I wonder if perhaps the problem may also "show itself", but perhaps a little differently getween 12am and 8pm(6 SD multicast mode) ...

Again, though, that's just a WAG ....

I've never heard of 'qam slots', but in any event TWC ain't doing it.

They may not even "really" exist .. I suppose The references I have seen to seperate "slots" in a 6MHZ QAM 256 channel could possibly be explained as someone looking for an easy way to describe how 2 "full" transport streams from 2 seperate DTV stations can "fit" into one 6MHZ channel with QAM 256 ... I probably misinterpeted it as meaning that could be done without muxing the 2 TS together, or possibly as if the 6MHZ channel could be split into 2 3MHZ channels ...

Doing a little goolging though, I can't find any valid references to anything like that. There were a coulpe of Ieee papers I would have liked to look at, but I don't have an account for them and would have to pay to see it, it looks like ...

On a bit of a "tangent", when looking for that I did come across the following link describing in some detail some equipment that might be used at a cable head-end to do what TW is doing, which I thought you might be interested in so here's the link :

http://www.rldrake.com/digital/dqt861applications.html

Would you be interested in looking at a couple of my qam captures?

Well, yes, but I'm on dial-up, so afraid that would probably be a bit cumbersome, so afraid I'm going to have to limit my TS downloads to Ron's(Dr1394) Test patterns ...

I don't think my set uses the PSIP data (no channel remapping, no guide info, ...) for QAM streams (it does for OTA), but the fact that I consistently show PSIP CRC errors on the 84 stream but not for 85/86 is one of the differences that caught my eye. (I wonder if TWC 're-write' is causing the crc errors)

Well, that's why I was wondering Which tables it's showing the CRC errors for(for instancesome of the PSIP tables are seperated/listed in that portion of tsreader screen which details the errors), although I would Assume(knowing the issues that go with that word) that if it's not using PSIP, then, what is going on with the PSIP data+any errors really shouldn't matter, as long as perhaps you're not getting PMT/PAT errors as well ...

Sorry if I'm repeating stuff below you already know(as some of your post demonstrates you already do), as I'm sure is the case with much of it, but to be a bit more complete about this, and perhaps for others who may be following along ....

It might be helpful to understand that PSIP is in no way, shape or form required or needed in order to identify transport or program streams, nor is it needed to demodulate, demux, or decode those streams. HOWEVER -- Unfortunetly it is the case that *some* ATSC OTA receiver's will *not* decode/identify streams properly if PSIP is not being implemented/sent properly(although OTOH some receivers will work just fine w/o PSIP) ... Receiver's NOT using PSIP however *do* need all the proper MPEG2 info+the PID's properly implemented in order to properly identify/decode the streams .....

PID's are "Packet identifers" with MPEG2, and are just that, basically, used to identify+"describe" what each packet of data is, and where it belongs, such as to a program stream/etc .....

I guess I think of these as "MPEG2" tables, but "officially" I think they are called something like "ISO/IEC 13818-1 sections or tables" :

PAT(program Association table), PMT(program Map table) and CAT (conditional access table) are NOT PSIP "tables", although, for example I believe PAT/PMT are certianly needed by PSIP ... The "program_number" field in PSIP VCT table "refers" to PMT, for instance ....

PSIP tables are :

STT(System Time Table), MGT(Master Guide Table), VCT(Virtual channel table*), RRT(Rating Region Table), Event Information Table(EIT), Extended Text Table(EIT), DCCT(Directed Channel Change Table), And DCCSCT(Direct Channel change slection code table).

* - There can be two VCT's -- TVCT (terrestrial Virtual Channel table), and CVCT (cable Virtual Channel table) -- Although I don't know of anyone who is sending CVCT or seperate info to the cableco's, and TVCT is all that is required(we usually just abbreiviate it to VCT) ...

Hopefully, the table names are more or less mostly "self explanatory" -- for instance, the EIT's contain the EPG info ....

If you're interested in more of what PSIP and its tables and their fields/etc "do" and how PSIP works, -- you may want to download the PSIP (a65c is current revision) whitepapers from ATSC site. Also, as a overall "guide" to understanding some of this stuff(but not PSIP) -- I've found their "guide to the DTV standard" (a53 document) very useful as well ....

-----------------

Now,
From what I can observe, I believe my set 'learns' the PAT/PMT info when you first tune a channel and seems to cache it. A power off clears this. In the context of 84, if I tune before the transition, it will learn and remember the id's: wlwt 84-1, ket1 84-3, ket2 84-4, ket3 84-5, ket4 84-6, ket5 84-17, ket6 84-18, weather 84-33

Interesting! I'm a bit surprised the power off clears it ... I don't think I've ever seen that behavior here with receiver's I have(or have had) which can be used w/o PSIP ...

Of course, the only ones you should be getting "no signal" for when KET4 is 720p would be KET3, 5+6 ....

[quote]
If I power off/on and tune 84 after the transition, it seems it can't find any of the mapping info.

hmmm ... So, it seems to me for some reason it's getting "confused" by the info in PMT/PAT when KET4 is 720p, at which time there are no elementary streams/PID's being sent by KET for KET3, 5+6 ...(although, there are PID's/entries present to identify all the program streams - KET1~6 -- but not the elementary audio/video streams which "aren't there" when they are in HD mode for KET3, 5+6 that are "really the streams"(LOL), as that's where the audio/video is -- see screenshot I posted in last post, PID for KET3 program stream 0x0050, but no 0x0051/0x0054 which are the PID's for the video/audio streams for KET3 between 12am and 8pm daily(6 SD mode) .... confused, perhaps, it seems such that you can't decode any of the streams in the mux, I take it, from either WCVN-DT or WLWT-DT ...

And this seems related to splicer010's _other_ problem of correctly associating the differant A/V's together. (I'll let him describe that one himself).

Yeah, just different receiver/decoders/demuxer's(or whatever is specifically having the problem with this) handling the issue a bit differently I suppose ....

Splicer010

08-16-07, 02:27 PM

The Drake models are just one type being used. After the transcoding the new signal must still be modulated. Matter of fact I just sold a QAM modulator on ebay...

Nitewatchman

08-16-07, 03:44 PM

After the transcoding the new signal must still be modulated.

In the text at URL I posted, it seems to me they seem to be using the term "transcoding" mostly to describe the process necessary to modulate with QAM as well as the 8VSB demod - In other words, generally speaking, using the term to refer to what is necessary to convert the signal modulation used from, for example, 8VSB to QAM. Which certianly seems to be a valid use of the term, although, for instance They certianly aren't talking about transcoding say, a 1080i video stream to 720p, or say, MPEG2 to MPEG4 ...(both which would require a decode/reencode process) ....

Especially see the bolded portion from the text at that Drake product info page below, and for more detail the rest of the info(specs/etc) at link :

"The DQT861 is unsurpassed in combining multiple functionality in one single unit of rack space. It contains two tuner/demods with 8VSB and QAM capabilities, MPEG program filtering, a transport stream multiplexer, a QAM modulator and a low noise high output power agile upconverter. In addition it may be special ordered with a single tuner/demod and a field installable ASI Input Module is available."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There IS a problem. For whatever reason(s), people experiencing it are not elevating / reporting it.

Almost forgot ... just a thought ... Given the general lack of reports on it even here, in addition to more reports from folks experiencing issues with it, perhaps even some reports from those using TW(or even other cablecos)+"user supplied" QAM "tuners" whom AREN'T experiening any issues/glitches with this might even be useful to you ...

terryfoster

08-16-07, 04:31 PM

Is WSTR-DT off the air?

Splicer010

08-16-07, 04:44 PM

WSTR is on here...My bad...you asked DT...We don't get that here and I do not have an antenna connected to check right now.

Splicer010

08-16-07, 04:49 PM

Yes Nitewatchman. I read the link when I was looking to incorporate them in my headend. Pricey units. There are other units that do not do the combo thing...but individual components (such as the modulator I spoke of). I still consider this to be transcoding.

Nitewatchman

08-16-07, 05:51 PM

Is WSTR-DT off the air?

Yes ... They've been down all week during the Day+come up sometime in the evening or late afternoon.

Sort of thing that would happen if they were doing tower work or other maintancnce.

terryfoster

08-16-07, 06:20 PM

Cool, I just happened to hit that channel on my box and received a "searching for signal" error and wanted to see if it was my antenna, box, or the source.

blbrodbeck

08-16-07, 08:09 PM

Last night I noticed TW is sending out more QAM Channels in the clear. They're still on now. Here are the new channels I'm getting.

Channel 0 CET PN-8 (Not PN-9, sometimes CrEaTe)
Channel 80-1 CNN International
Channel 80-5 Boomerang Cartoon Network
Channel 80-6 Starz Edge
Channel 80-7 Starz In Black
Channel 80-13 Fox Reality
Channel 85-9 CET World

I wasn't getting 48-2, or 48-3 anymore.

Nitewatchman

08-16-07, 08:09 PM

Well, of course the day I post WSTR-DT has been down during the day but fire up every night, they don't do the latter ... LOL ...

plughplover

08-16-07, 10:07 PM

Wow - a lot to respond to... For now, I'll just touch on a few...

These caps are big; I tend to do ~7 min = ~2GB caps, as that seems 'long enough' to catch some of the less frequent table updates. PM me your mailing addresses and I'll burn some dvds and send them to both of you if you really want them...

re: Drake gear - In my conversation with Mike B., when we were talking about their past difficulties with WCET, he mentioned that they had had "Harris engrs" helping them out - I'm guessing because they use Harris gear??

re: channel scan - on a scan, the set appears to only learn and record a _single_ program number per channel. In fact, there is no way to add/delete particular sub-channels.

re: splicer010 A/V problem - I was referring to the up/down behaviour you described to me.

re: PSIP - yes, I know it is supplimentary info (though ATSC ended up making it mandatory) and not strictly needed. In fact, several of the other clear qam feeds on TWC (Discovery HD, TNT-HD for example) have no PSIP data at all. But the PSIP CRC errors were an obvious difference between 84 and 85/86, and I couldn't help but wonder if TWC was modifying the info (like VCT?) and not recomputing the crc's for (some?) packets.

re: chipsets - I also don't want to draw inferences based upon such small sample sizes (would really be nice to get some more responses), but my research to date really seems to be leading me toward concluding that there is a 'sensitivity' in some LG chipsets, that can cause problems when 'tickled' - and the TWC 84 mux has characteristics that trigger it.

BTW - here's another interesting post re this model set:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9909386&&#post9909386
VERY similar to the random hiccups I have with 84 during the day

But seemingly random problems are the hardest to diagnose, and in this case I've got a very reliable trigger condition - the ket4 sd->hd transition. That's not to say that other chipsets do not have problems with the 84 mux (witness my AccessDTV card probs with it) but at least this one is *reproducible* - once per day :(

enough for now...

dnslammers

08-17-07, 11:53 AM

Nitewatchman

08-17-07, 02:10 PM

In fact, several of the other clear qam feeds on TWC (Discovery HD, TNT-HD for example) have no PSIP data at all.

PSIP is only used by Broadcast DTV stations AFAIK,+is usually passed through by calbeco's carrying those signals as well(If I recall correctly, many cableco's are actually required to pass it through, unless their system has less bandwidth than a certian #(can't remember what that is) .

BTW, FCC began requiring PSIP(from broadcasters) in Early 2005, it was voluntary before that, and it's been around in ATSC specs almost as long(or a bit longer) than DTV stations have been on the air. Prior to Early 2005, some stations in the area sent it(often w/o PSIP info such as accurate time/date info from STT), some didn't ... Which for various reasons IMO was worse than having none, or all of them do it ....

But the PSIP CRC errors were an obvious difference between 84 and 85/86, and I couldn't help but wonder if TWC was modifying the info (like VCT?) and not recomputing the crc's for (some?) packets.

Well, someone (I think he was a TWC tech but not sure) way back in this thread commented that they don't modify any of the PSIP data, he said the only thing they did change were only the PID's were modified from what the stations send.

What has not been extremely clear to me from the PSIP docs is how VCT Major/minor channel number(different minor channel number field entry for each program stream/service of course) "references", or in other words is "tied to" the correct program stream for each program service from the "MPEG2 Info", but it does say in there that the VCT does reference PMT -- It's just a guess, but I'm thinking the PID's for the program streams might have to be referenced somehow, as I can't seem to find any other specific reference that could occur by say, referencing a a MPEG2 program stream # (in other words, from what I can tell, it looks like MPEG2 Program stream number may be directly "referenced" in most cases to the PID address --- For instance, OTA, KET's "first" program stream is "program 3", the PID address is 0x0030 (0x0031 video/0x0034 audio) .... I do have some detailed MPEG2 white papers laying around here on a DVD somewhere, but if I recall correctly from the past, even looking through those didn't help me figure that one out ....

Around the time FCC began mandating PSIP, they also began mandating that all PID addresses for program streams be at or higher than Hex 30, the reason was given was due to "international coordination issues" .... Before that, many stations had PID addresses lower than that for their program streams, and as I recall, a couple of stations had some issues making this change(WXIX was one of them) which caused some receivers not to be able to decode and caused symptoms which made the problem "look like" a PSIP related issue, even though their PSIP data was "A OK" ... I don't recall the exact specifics, but If I recall correctly, in WXIX's case, there was a snafu with some specific piece of equipment involving the PID address changes ...

Updates:

--- In my conversation with Mike B., when we were talking about their past difficulties with WCET, he mentioned that they had had "Harris engrs" helping them out - I'm guessing because they use Harris gear??

I think WCET uses some harris gear, or did at one time ... (for instance, someone I had talked to there menitioned at one time they were using Harris encoders) .. Don't know about TW ...

PM me your mailing addresses and I'll burn some dvds and send them to both of you if you really want them...

Oh -- thanks for the offer, but that's not necessary, as I don't think I'd be able to tell anything more from it than what you've seen, and would just expect to see two 2 TS's muxed into one stream+different PID's, as well as the CRC errors for the PSIP tables your noticing ... Do wonder though, for example how it "works" in TSreader for the EPG info from EIT's when you choose from the drop down menus the "view"/EPG grid" option, since there should be Two "set's" of EPG grids from say, 2 stations in the case of the TS stream on channel 84 (WCVN+WLWT's) ....

Also, for example, per attached screenshot I take it what you see in the upper middle "box" here if you "highlight" KET3's TVCT entry in the tree (when they're in 6 channel SD mode)via TW QAM would be the same except for the the PID addresses listed under "Service Location Descriptor" being different, and the Modulation mode being QAM instead of 8VSB ?

Note: Sorry for the quality, I had to resample the screenshot to smaller size so I could attach the graphic here ...

William Smith

08-17-07, 04:05 PM

In order to re-number the PIDs and insert the new service ID information , The mux has to regenerate the PMTs and PATs for the transport stream and insert the TVCT/CVCT tables to support tuning by the QAM decoder. I've looked at the streams and suspect that the issue is the system adapting the TVCT/CVCT and PAT/PMTS at the time 8:00 and again at 12:00. If the receiver doesn't update the tables from the information in the stream ( including video buffer size) the feed will not decode. I can pick out and decode the test streams here if I use the PAT/PMT or TCVT data so I'm still looking at it..

I need to test on another analyzer that can let me dissect the packets to get better information.

Nitewatchman

08-17-07, 05:25 PM

^That all makes sense William ...

I've looked at the streams and suspect that the issue is the system adapting the TVCT/CVCT and PAT/PMTS at the time 8:00 and again at 12:00.

Just an observation+probably a "dumb" question --- If I have read plughplover and splicer010's reports on this correctly .... Sounds like it's maybe at least working a little better for the "most effected" decoders after the 12am adaption of the tables vs. the 8pm one .... As if it works fine(or perhaps "almost" so) after the 12am change, but not the 8pm one...

Wonder why, and here's the probably dumb question, since I can't look at it and its probably unrelated anyway : Wonder if any of the PID's for the streams, especially those which remain "active" 24/7 from WLWT+KET are getting different addresses 8pm vs 12am ...

plughplover

08-17-07, 09:11 PM

Hey! Did somebody change something?

I decided to monitor the 8PM transition again tonight - and I didn't immediately lose everything!

After the ket4 sd->hd transition, the set still remembered all eight program numbers (-1,-3,-4,-5,-6,-17,-18,-33), gave 'no signal' on -5,-17,-18, and decoded -1,-3,-4,-6,-33 !

- until I changed to 85 then back to 84, at which point it still remembered all eight program numbers but gave "No Signal" on all of them. Powered set off and back on, tuned to 84, got 'No signal', and it no longer 'knew' the program numbers...

So I actually got through the transition while watching ket4, and was able to select amongst streams afterwards, but _tuning_ to 84 after the transition (from other channel or power on) gave me nothing again. Apparently the set can't find what it wants in the stream after the transition to 'initialize' itself, but it did get through the transition this time.

Now that I think about it I may have seen this behaviour once before; I DO remember thinking one time that I had 'got through' the transition, but as soon as I retuned I lost everything again, so I thought it was a fluke... This time I was careful to only move amongst the streams on 84 before tuning away and back.

I wonder if it has something to do with actually having ket4 selected when the transition took place. I'll try selecting wlwt tomorrow night and see what happens...

JunkyardDogg

08-18-07, 04:56 PM

Anyone else not getting program data from WLWT?

Also noticed that WCPO has added "HD" to their weather graphics!

Nitewatchman

08-18-07, 05:05 PM

JY Dogg,

WLWT-DT isn't sending any EPG info currently, The tables where those are sent (EIT's) aren't even showing up in their transport stream currently.

I've also noticed(when they were sending it), it's often been wrong -- for example, Guests listed on Tonight show from different shows than the one that's airing/etc.

Not really uncommon to see "wrong" or incomplete program info/descriptions in the EIT's from several of the stations around here, though (a few of the Dayton stations are particularly bad about that) ...

-----------------

Update:

Also, should note WKOI-DT is the only station in the area I've seen send EPG info in the EITs out longer than 12 hours, they currently are sending programming info out to one week. 12 hours is the FCC requirement, I believe ... Don't know if there's a equipment limitation/etc. on the station end which could be involved regarding how far ahead they can send the info ...

Splicer010

08-18-07, 08:15 PM

OK...Following plughplover's lead I left my unit on KETED (KET4?) @ 8 PM. Picture went out, 'no signal' on screen, then weatherPls came on...all with no audio...I manually entered 105-1 (WLWT) and had audio and video...Changed channel (manually) to 109-2 (WXIX) had A/V...Manually changed back to 105-1 (WLWT) and 'no signal' on screen...No weather plus or KET or NBC at all.

So something is happening, I just don't know what.

Before 8PM when I scan thru the 105 channel/subchannels (WLWT & WKET) starting at 105-1 (WLWT) and hit each sub channel (tho aren't they ALL subchannels seeing as how there is no 105?) all the way to the last channe; 105-33 (WeatherPlus), EVERY channels audio is WLWT audio until 105-## which the audio is then the WeatherPlus audio.

Now while scanning DOWN starting at 105-33 (WeatherPlus) to 105-1 (WLWT) the audio is a piano playing on ALL KET channels.

plughplover

08-18-07, 08:22 PM

Well monitored it again tonight, with wlwt (84-1) selected.

At 8PM screen blanked and I got 'no signal'
I then stepped up to -3, and it decoded.
stepped to -4, decoded
stepped to -5 *decoded* !?
stepped to -6, decoded, *still an SD stream*
stepped to -17, 'no signal'
stepped to -18, 'no signal'
stepped to -33, decoded

stepping back down, got same results, and wlwt *decoded*

stepped back up, this time -5 gave 'no signal' and -6 was now in HD mode

tuned to 85, then back to 84 and can't decode anything again.

Hmmm... Does KET do the switchover in stages? ie -17 and -18 dropped first, then -5 dropped and -6 switched? Did I lose wlwt when -17 and -18 were terminated vs when -6 switches mode? Is William experimenting on his end? Has TWC changed something? arghh!

I think I need to repeat both these tests again and see if the results are repeatable...

splicer010, any chance you've monitored either last night or tonight?
EDIT: obviously you were posting at the same time as I was :D
I wonder if your audio issue is due to your unit, or some subtle difference in the way your TWC head-end is mux'ing the stream compared to my head-end... (I guess the only way to find out would be a road trip)

Nitewatchman

08-18-07, 08:55 PM

Hmmm... Does KET do the switchover in stages? ie -17 and -18 dropped first, then -5 dropped and -6 switched? Did I lose wlwt when -17 and -18 were terminated vs when -6 switches mode?

It happens all at once from what I can tell ...

I must say The program stream #'s you are using are specific to TW's system, so apologize but it's a little confusing for me to think about those #'s regarding TW's Mux and what is from WLWT-DT vs. what's from WCVN-DT (KET) ...

Anyway, KET3,4,5,6 480i SD streams(which are program #'s 5,6,7,8 from KET, and/or TVCT minor channel numbers 3,4,5,6) are replaced with KET4 720p HD stream at 8pm, and vice versa at 12am ...

Sorry I didn't monitor the switch here tonight, but all looks fine as allways currently when they are in HD mode (KET1,2+4 have decodable streams, KET3,5,6 are blank screen ...) WLWT-DT is fine too, except for the missing PSIP EIT+ETT tables ..

blbrodbeck

08-18-07, 09:55 PM

I using my HDTV with QAM and I'm hooked up to TWC. I can get all the local HD stations and TNT-HD but I can't seem to find Discovery-HD. Does anyone have a channel number for their QAM hookup for Discovery-HD? My TNT-HD is 115.1.

Hi dnslammers try 105.1. What brand of TV do you have? I've searched on a few different brands & Discovery has been 10 channels lower than TNT everytime. I don't know why but different brands show the various QAM channels on different channel numbers. I guess they "map" the QAM channels differently.

- Bill

Splicer010

08-19-07, 03:05 PM

My wife has informed me I have until thursday Sept 6 to have this NBC/KET issue figured out. The Colts are playing & John Melencamp is performing...Worse case scenario I go OTA but my OTA signal is inconsistent out here in the boonies which can be MORE frustrating than not getting it at all to begin with.

wish

08-19-07, 03:22 PM

Yes ... They've been down all week during the Day+come up sometime in the evening or late afternoon.

Sort of thing that would happen if they were doing tower work or other maintancnce. Is WSTR still down? I can't get a signal and I used to have a consistent & solid one in the 70's. Now I can't get a sniff.

Nitewatchman

08-19-07, 03:33 PM

Is WSTR still down? I can't get a signal and I used to have a consistent & solid one in the 70's. Now I can't get a sniff.

Just checked, and WSTR-DT is now the air at 3:26pm Sunday. Haven't looked earlier today, but it is the first time I've seen them on air since Thursday evening or so.

slimm

08-19-07, 04:14 PM

Just checked, and WSTR-DT is now the air at 3:26pm Sunday. Haven't looked earlier today, but it is the first time I've seen them on air since Thursday evening or so.

Thanks for the heads up !

Bill R (# 2)

08-19-07, 06:08 PM

Nitewatchman

08-19-07, 06:21 PM

WCPO-DT now has its 6 PM news in HD. All the studio shots are widescreen but some of the field reports are "blue barred" or stretched but some look to be HD. The stuff from ABC looks stretched. The weather maps look great in HD.

I wonder how long it will take the other local stations to go HD for the local newscasts? My bet is that WKRC-DT is next.

Looks good ... I figured they might be getting close when I noticed some of the field reports lately from out of town were distorted video that was 16x9 "squeezed" into 4x3 area with side bars ...

As for who is next, I wouldn't want to bet on that ... I thought WLWT might end up being first, although I believe they probably got a lot of new gear about 10 years ago when they went all digital(well pretty much from my understanding except for the analog transmitter) ...

I do recall hearing somewhere that CBS "wanted" it's affiliates to go to local HD news, but not sure if they were just talking about the CBS O&O's or not ... Did notice during the last "weather warning" that WKRC-DT was inserting a different from the analog "Severe weather/local12.com" bug outside of 4x3 area ... When I saw it there wasn't HD programming airing on CBS, but am guessing they could have done it if it was ...

JunkyardDogg

08-19-07, 06:27 PM

Definitely looks awesome! My bet is WLWT-DT will go HD next. I think we will see WKRC, WLWT, WCPO in HD before Feb. 2009. I think WKRC's sale will need to go through before any more money is spent there.

plughplover

08-19-07, 09:05 PM

Repeated last night's monitor, and got same results. ie
tuned to wlwt-dt 84-1
at 8pm it blanked out, got 'no signal'
stepped up to ket1 84-3, decoded
to ket2 84-4, decoded
to ket3 84-5, *decoded*
to ket4 84-6, decoded, and still in SD mode
to ket5 84-17, 'no signal'
to ket6 84-18 ,'no signal'
to wlwt-wx 84-33, decoded

stepped back down, same results as above and wlwt-dt decoded

stepped back up, and ket3 was now gone and ket4 was now in HD

tuned to 85 and back to 84, and again 'no signal' on everything...

So it seems ket5 and ket6 go away first, then ket3 stops and ket4 switches; and wlwt blanks out (when ket5 and ket6 stop?) just before ket4 switches.

I also set up my PC with the MDP-130 card and took some more caps; 84 before, 84 after, and 85 for comparison. One notable item - the PSIP CRC errors are (essentially) gone. (Wonder if it's because of wlwt's current lack of eit/epg info...). Attached are 'export to html' output of tsreader lite.

HDTV1998

08-19-07, 10:23 PM

Boy, you hit the nail exactly on the head.

Nitewatchman

08-19-07, 11:31 PM

Definitely looks awesome!

Studio Shots+the "new" HD weather Graphics do look excellent ... I'm really liking the 720p with the weather graphics ...

Also, For the first day, they're really doing a fine job of it too, including regarding the AR issues involving the HD studio shots, 16x9 SD local field reports(and from Little Leauge WS in PA tonight), and The 4x3 SD stuff ...

Al Schottelkotte(spelling?) would be proud, I'd think ...

Nitewatchman

08-19-07, 11:58 PM

Bonus HD!

Cool! SOAS is HD as well! Excellent! Been watching them for 20 years it seems, now in HD! Gonna have to send Martenelli+crew a big thank you for this !

ThoraX695

08-20-07, 12:24 AM

Bonus HD!

Cool! SOAS is HD as well! Excellent! Been watching them for 20 years it seems, now in HD! Gonna have to send Martenelli+crew a big thank you for this !

The high school football and all of the Bengals sideline and interview footage was in HD too. :D Once WCPO gets things polished up (graphics and such that were 4:3 and boxed in), they'll have quite a high standard for the other big 3 stations in town to meet in terms of local HD content. Bravo to WCPO!

On a side note, it looks like we may have some severe weather in the area tomorrow. It looks like their HD weather system may get a good work out. ;)

P.S. It was nice for the Don't Waste Your Money segment to expose the fallacies of purchasing off-brand cheap HD sets.

Nitewatchman

08-20-07, 12:27 AM

I also set up my PC with the MDP-130 card and took some more caps; 84 before, 84 after, and 85 for comparison..

Why didn't I think of that! Duh! Well, just did that on my end OTA(attached) and made some quick comparisons to your TSreader HTM files. At first glance, notice there's definitely some different stuff in there for KET stream, for example check out the *TVCT info from your TW mux capture vs. my OTA KET TS cap .... Will try to look at it a little more closely tomorrow when I have more time, but I have a feeling I'm not going to see anything you or William haven't already noticed that might look "problematic" ...

* - edit: However, if CVCT(cable virtual channel table) is being utilized/sent, TSreader does not show it, only TVCT(terrestrial VCT).

Another thing I was "just wondering" about which I didn't mention earlier regarded the TSID and how that worked with TW muxing KET+WLWT together(or any other 2 stations streams into the same stream) .. With TW's Mux I see everything has the same TSID (all WLWT-DT+WCVN-DT stuff) which makes sense I suppose, dunno if you can have more than one in a single TS. But, with OTA, the TSID's are issued by FCC and are tied *directly* to the station involved(and no two stations will have the same TSID), which may be actually a matter of a bit of importance in some circumstances regarding OTA tuning issues and that every station gets a different TSID. As for example, many stations share the same virutal channel #'s(in VCT) ... There is even a site that allows you to look up the TSID #'s .... see here for some info( Note however, the lookup site in link at this post seems to currently be having problems) :

http://www.freelists.org/archives/opendtv/08-2007/msg00090.html

---------------------------------------

Anyhow -- In Attached zip file is HTML export(w/o the thumbnails of video decode) from TS reader from KET OTA (specifically WCVN-DT 24 Covington) TS for you to compare with yours as well ... From 11:48pm(KET4 in HD mode), and 12:08 am tonight(All streams SD mode) ... Note for completeness : I use "ATSC BDA Source" with TSReader with Hauppauge HVR-1600(PCI) --
Note: I should also say I have to restart TSreader to get the proper info before/after KET "transiston" from HD mode to SD mode or vice versa, as there doesn't seem to be a "refresh" option on the "lite" version at least ....

Nitewatchman

08-20-07, 01:24 AM

The high school football and all of the Bengals sideline and interview footage was in HD too.

I didn't get a chance to see that, as I was just monitoring them out of corner of my eye while working on my response to plughplover ...

Are you sure it was HD and not SD widescreen though? For instance, all of the Outside the studio field shots I caught on the 11pm news was SD widescreen ...

P.S. It was nice for the Don't Waste Your Money segment to expose the fallacies of purchasing off-brand cheap HD sets.

I didn't get to watch the entire 9news, but Did notice only one shot in another story and the Matarese bit, and some of the "old" weather graphics were the *only* material originating from WCPO I saw in the news report that were 4x3 .... Anyway, I thought that was pretty impressive for the first day, much along the lines of WHIO-DT Dayton has done -- although they're SD widescreen at best, including for the studio shots, and they had some AR issues(stretched 4x3 at first w/o "squeezing in" the sidebars), which they've long since worked out ....

jimp2244

08-20-07, 07:54 AM

Beginning with the 2007 season, CBS will air five or six of Sunday's games in high-definition.

All games occuring Weeks 1, 5, 6, 9, 12 and 15 will be broadcast in high-definition.

See below... the Tennessee at Jacksonville game is apparently not in HD in week 1.

"All of the 16 regular season games probably will be in HDTV."

Thanks for the info. That's more than acceptable. I can live without HD for the preseason as long as it will be HD when the bullets are real.

CBS is doing more games in HD this year, so I am hoping we won't have to deal with any SD games for the whole regular season.

Thought I'd post this piece of bad news from the Programming forum. As mlbUC said over there, the Browns suck so bad that the Bengals week 2 game will not be in HD on CBS.

Bengals week 1 game will be in HD on ESPN Monday Night Football and as far as I know WKRC-DT will also have the HD feed.

=================
http://www.sportsline.com/cbssports/schedules/page/nfl

Looks like 5 games a week.

NFL on CBS Week 1: Sunday, Sept. 9
Denver @ Buffalo, 1:00 p.m. (CBS HD)
Pittsburgh @ Cleveland, 1:00 p.m. (CBS HD)
Kansas City @ Houston, 1:00 p.m. (CBS HD)
Tennessee @ Jacksonville, 1:00 p.m.
New England @ N.Y. Jets, 1:00 p.m. (CBS HD)
Miami @ Washington, 1:00 p.m. (CBS HD)

NFL on CBS Week 2: Sunday, Sept. 16, CBS Doubleheader
Houston @ Carolina, 1:00 p.m.
Cincinnati @ Cleveland, 1:00 p.m.
Buffalo @ Pittsburgh, 1:00 p.m. (CBS HD)
Indianapolis @ Tennessee, 1:00 p.m. (CBS HD)
Kansas City @ Chicago, 4:15 p.m. (CBS HD)
N.Y. Jets @ Baltimore, 4:15 p.m. (CBS HD)
Oakland @ Denver, 4:15 p.m. (CBS HD)
=================

JunkyardDogg

08-20-07, 09:09 AM

I didn't get a chance to see that, as I was just monitoring them out of corner of my eye while working on my response to plughplover ...

Are you sure it was HD and not SD widescreen though? For instance, all of the Outside the studio field shots I caught on the 11pm news was SD widescreen ...

Those clips were in HD, the interviews with a couple of players were amazing! I think for live shots, it will be SD widescreen for the most part, until the trucks are upgraded. But once the reporter gets back to the station and goes editing from the HDD/Tape, it is in HD.

I didn't get to watch the entire 9news, but Did notice only one shot in another story and the Matarese bit, and some of the "old" weather graphics were the *only* material originating from WCPO I saw in the news report that were 4x3 .... Anyway, I thought that was pretty impressive for the first day, much along the lines of WHIO-DT Dayton has done -- although they're SD widescreen at best, including for the studio shots, and they had some AR issues(stretched 4x3 at first w/o "squeezing in" the sidebars), which they've long since worked out ....

Does WHIO-DT plan on using HD anytime soon? WCPO has been doing alot of there recent stories in atleast widescreen and I think that is why a most of their newscast in widescreen. As far as the weather graphics, WCPO and WHIO share the same package from Baron, VIPIR HD and the new HD radar screens. I think some more adjustment will be seen in the coming days. Like this morning, Good Morning Tri-State was in HD, including a scroll along the bottom, but when Good Morning America came on, it was in SD:mad:. Hopefully that will be fixed.

Nitewatchman

08-20-07, 11:40 AM

Does WHIO-DT plan on using HD anytime soon?

I don't know, but I doubt it. For instance, *If* they just bought new cameras, and would need to buy new HDcams to do HD, wouldn't think they would buy all new ones anytime soon ...

AS SD goes, their Widescreen SD from the Studio and *some*(not all) from the field *does* look very good though, IMO.

JunkyardDogg

08-20-07, 01:14 PM

I remember reading somewhere that they had one HD cam and that was the main studio cam. Oh well.

Nitewatchman

08-20-07, 01:18 PM

I also set up my PC with the MDP-130 card and took some more caps;

Will try to look at it a little more closely tomorrow

To follow up and "add" a bit to my last post on this -- Looking at these a little more closely, and assuming nothing on your end is stripping anything out, just going by what I can see from the "exporttoHTML" from TSreader ... looks to me like quite a bit of stuff is missing from the streams from TW vs. what is sent by the station, OTA. And that's just what I can tell from TSreader's exporttoHTML function ... Don't know about the EIA-708(digital captions) captions or STT, or other PSIP tables(MGT, RRT/etc) and whether they're in there via TW or not(they are there OTA) ....

For example, via TW+your Tsreader html output files compared to mine OTA -- Via TW there are no detailed program descriptions in the EIT's, they're there OTA. Service Name for KET4 and CET world seem to be missing via TW, There OTA. Oddly enough, Service Name for "Tube" OTA is "WXIX" via TW's Mux. EIT's seem to be missing completely from WCET-DT via TW. As noted earlier, lots of stuff(Info on the elementary audio/video streams mostly) is not showing up from the TVCT via TW(that goes for all program streams from WLWT-DT, WCVN-DT(KET), WXIX-DT and WCET-DT.

Most importantly, perhaps -- In your 19:07 cap, The audio/video streams from KET3 appear to be missing as well(They are not present in PID usage chart, nor are they shown in stream descriptors/etc. in PMT, for instance), as if the stream is "not" there, which, while should be the case between 8pm~12am, should not be the case when they are in SD mode(which should be the case at 19:07EDT). Looking at that, it looks like you aren't getting the streams from KET3 even when you should be, can't imagine how you could decode them.

What I also find odd is the PID address of 0x0052 for KET3 (program5) via TW's mux. The PID's for any program stream I've ever seen OTA has been 0x00[x]0 PID for the program, 0x00[x]1 for the video, 0x00[x]4 for one audio stream, and if present, 0x00[x]5 for the alternate audio stream. I wonder if that has anything to do with the Audio/video streams for KET3 not showing up in the 19:07 cap.

Attached file:

To be "comlete"+to allow you to compare these to your caps as well, I've attched a zip file to this message from around noon today with HTML output from TSreader for WLWT-DT, WCET-DT and WXIX-DT streams. Probably never reallylooked at it/paid attnetion to it before, but I don't recall the PID's being at 0x0050/51/54 and 0x0060/61/64 for the program streams, most station's have PID address of 0x0030 for their "first" program.

Do keep in mind that CET does not send "Create" OTA, just CET-HD and World, so we don't get that third stream from them that's in the mux on 85 you're getting OTA. Also, notice that the PID's/streams for WLWT's EIT's are present at time of this capture, they just are either not being implemented/recognized properly, or perhaps more likely, there is no info in them, currently.

Also, it might be helpful to explain how this works with my equipment/setup/etc. TSreader is reading the TS "directly" in real time rather than from a TSfile captured and dumped to to disk, earlier. When you're not reading a TS file as source in TSreader(which seems to be the case in your case judging from your HTML output files), and are using a input source that works with TSreader which allows you to "interfaces" directly to your "tuner" card drivers+Directshow BDA source filter -- a box in TSreader pops up when you open it that lets you tune the desired channel/frequency - such as channeel 24 for WCVN-DT, 35 for WLWT-DT/etc. If, however I use other applications to capture+dump the TS file to disk first, then read the TS file in TSreader like you are doing, everything shown in TSreader is, however exactly the same as using the ATSC BDA source filter in "real time", it's just not happening in real time.

The reason I bring that up is because something entirely different happens if I capture from Firewire port of my Sony KD34XBR960 HDTV with capDVHS or VLC or other capture software --- The sony only sends the program stream for the station it's internal ATSC(or QAM) receiver is "tuned" to, and strips everything else out ... In other words, the streams aren't decoded, but are demuxed before making it to the firewire port, and the only streams you get via firewire are the video/audio streams for the particular subchannel the sony is "tuned to", no PSIP/etc ... I wouldn't think that would be the case with any PC tuner cards(especially since most of them, like mine don't even have MPEG2 hardware decoders and don't demux or mux streams in hardware), but I don't know, so thought I should mention it ....

That's probably about all I'll have on this -- probably not, but hopefully there's something useful in there somewhere to someone regarding my posts on this ...

William Smith

08-20-07, 01:38 PM

Nitewatchman

08-20-07, 02:20 PM

I think I do recall looking at KET3+4 (eiter with different decoders+displays or just switched quickly to KET3 after the change -- which would take a second or two) during the 8pm/12am switches+noticed that it appeared that it "happened" pretty much at the same time, but suppose I should have actually looked at KET5+6 before I said "it looks like all happens at once", earlier ... Thanks William ....

---------------------------------------------------

I remember reading somewhere that they had one HD cam and that was the main studio cam. Oh well.

I think someone who should know posted at WHIO they were all widescreen SD cameras in Dayton thread.

It is certianly all widescreen SD from WHIO-DT on air, although at first it was hard for me to tell from the anchordesk shot. As, it does look very good, especially given the lighting+set is designed to make TV look "good" anyway, and there are really no background details in that shot to examine that easily gives it away. But, it became evident when I saw that camera pan to the anchor desk the first time that it was SD ...

I do wonder how WHIO and now WCPO handle the AR issues so well in a fast paced news cast with a mix of HD, 16x9 and 4x3 SD material ...As 720p or 1080i is square pixel aspect ratio, SD widescreen is not, 4x3 SD requires the sidebars "squeezed" into the sides for proper AR when they're sending 720p/1080i signal, SD widescreen or HD does not ... And, if they don't do it right, given it's a 4x3 center cut on the analog station, some of the video can end up "distorted" there as well ....

plughplover

08-20-07, 02:22 PM

Yes, I also noticed the lack of ket3 PMT in the 1907 cap; but if you look at the bandwidth chart at the bottom (pids 52,53,54), you can see the streams are present. The 1907 cap was only 6 min long (rather than the 7 min I usually take), so I'm guessing I just didn't catch one.

You might note the 'pmt sections' count at the bottom of the various caps; I always thought it was curious how the PAT/PMT counts were higher before 8PM.

Don't know how significant it is, but if you look at the PMT data for KET4 in HD mode:
MPEG Video: Framerate 59.94 fps Aspect Ratio 16:9 Chroma Format 4:2:0
...
Frame rate: 29.97¼

Yes, in comparing your OTA to TWC, I thought it was interesting that all the KET PIDs are the same except for KET3, and yes I noted the unusual(?) '52' value.

I also note the 'Continuity errors' on the TWC 84 stream.

At this point, the only pre/post transition differences I can see in the tsreader output are the PAT referencing PMT PIDs for which there are no PMT's, and the change in PAT/PMT section counts.

I do think _something_ has changed; I've had my set tuned to 84-1 (wlwt) for about 4 hours now and still haven't had a 'random drop' yet. Will be interesting to see what happens when wlwt eit/epg info comes back (psip crc errors again?)

plughplover

08-20-07, 02:36 PM

At 19:59:00 KET drops KET5 and KET6 to free up bandwidth for the HD switch at 19:59:58. By the time the system completes the switch its within milliseconds of 20:00:00. Our in house time is off a little to compensate for the satellite delay of the PBS feeds.

At 00:00:00 we drop the HD go back to the 4 SD mode and then :30 later go to 6 SD mode.

So the evidence is accumulating that it isn't the ket4 sd->hd transition per se that causes the initial glitch, but the ket5/6 drop.

Hmmm. So I've got a one minute window... I think tonight I'll tune to ket5 and as soon as it stops I'll retune to 85 and back to 84 (within the window) and see if the set can reinitialize with the stream in that state.

jimp2244

08-20-07, 02:46 PM

So I've got a one minute window...

What time does the problem go away? Is it at 00:00:00 when they go to 4 SD mode or is it at 01:30:00 when they go back to 6 SD?

JunkyardDogg

08-20-07, 02:49 PM

I think someone who should know posted at WHIO they were all widescreen SD cameras in Dayton thread.

It is certianly all widescreen SD from WHIO-DT on air, although at first it was hard for me to tell from the anchordesk shot. As, it does look very good, especially given the lighting+set is designed to make TV look "good" anyway, and there are really no background details in that shot to examine that easily gives it away. But, it became evident when I saw that camera pan to the anchor desk the first time that it was SD ...

I do wonder how WHIO and now WCPO handle the AR issues so well in a fast paced news cast with a mix of HD, 16x9 and 4x3 SD material ...As 720p or 1080i is square pixel aspect ratio, SD widescreen is not, 4x3 SD requires the sidebars "squeezed" into the sides for proper AR when they're sending 720p/1080i signal, SD widescreen or HD does not ... And, if they don't do it right, given it's a 4x3 center cut on the analog station, some of the video can end up "distorted" there as well ....

I know they are sending out SD widescreen, but I thought one camera was HD, but not being used as an HD cam. From my emails with WCPO, they are taking extreme care as far as AR. When it is widescreen, it will be widescreen with the center cut for analog. When it is 4x3, it will have sidebars on HD. There should not be any stretching as the analog is the center cut. I have seen the last couple of days on WCPO some stretched video, but I think that was simply rookie mistakes, WHIO did the same thing back in April.

Sea Ray

08-20-07, 03:02 PM

I've been out of town for a few weeks but I noticed that TWC no longer has CET-PBS Kids on its digital cable. Has WCET dropped this station or was it TWC that dropped it? Just wonderin'...

plughplover

08-20-07, 03:07 PM

What time does the problem go away? Is it at 00:00:00 when they go to 4 SD mode or is it at 01:30:00 when they go back to 6 SD?

I've only monitored the 12pm transition a couple times, but from my recollection the recovery was "exactly" when ket4 switched back to sd. However, according to William's post there is only a 30 second window on that end, so I may not have noticed the stages.

Nitewatchman

08-20-07, 03:18 PM

but if you look at the bandwidth chart at the bottom (pids 52,53,54), you can see the streams are present.

Oops, I had looked for those but didn't see it for some reason in your "caps", now I do -- Note that for two of them it says they are "unknown usage" ... Given the bandwidth usage, PID at address 0x0053 shows 1.91Mb/s makes sense for the video stream and 0x0054 at .2mb/s probably makes sense for an audio stream, but there's nothing in the info that seems to be telling us(or presumably your decoder) that they "belong" to KET3 ....

The 1907 cap was only 6 min long (rather than the 7 min I usually take), so I'm guessing I just didn't catch one.

Strange, Just checked, and it takes less than 2 seconds for (presumably)all the streams/tables/etc. to show up here in TSreader for KET ... Note I say "presumably" because I can't say "ALL" of them show up within that time(such as all the PSIP related streams/etc), but it sure looks like it. But, All the program stream PID's/elementary streams surely pop up within 2 seconds or less, seems to take a little longer for all the EIT info to fill in, or for the video decode to occur in the thumbnails on RH side ...

You might note the 'pmt sections' count at the bottom of the various caps; I always thought it was how the PAT/PMT counts were higher before 8PM.

Just a guess, Maybe because (from KET) there are more active services/streams between 12am~8pm?

Don't know how significant it is, but if you look at the PMT data for KET4 in HD mode:
MPEG Video: Framerate 59.94 fps Aspect Ratio 16:9 Chroma Format 4:2:0

Frame rate: 29.97¼

Don't know, wonder if it might have something to do with any the PBS HD channel source being 1080i, which would be 29.97fps interlaced from PBS, the rest makes sense since they are transcoding PBS HD to 720p at KET+broadcasting it at 720p .... I do know I was playing around once and reencoded a bit of HD soundstage from KET4 to WMV-HD at 1280x720 @ 23.98fps, and for the most part if I recall correctly it actually seemed to work fairly well(material originating as 1080p/24fps HD video I presume?)... I've also done that with 24fps source material from other sources with good results, but for instance, it doesn't work so well with 720p/60fps HD video, like you'd probably get during 720p HD live sports or WCPO-DT's new HD newscast ...

I also note the 'Continuity errors' on the TWC 84 stream.

Yeah, I noticed in your channel 84 caps how many there were vs. your ch 85 caps ...In the the TSreader readmes on their website, it seems to say any great variety of things could cause continuity errors, perhaps most likely causes being a problem with the RF signal, or a problem with improperly setup/implemented multiplexers(such as At TW) ... They do also seem to say if your getting 2 or less per second you're probably "OK" ....

anyway Funny story about those here ... I had never noticed anything besides "0" continuity errors here when tuned to any local station(weak distant signals via dx are a different matter), until Saturday when I got a few from just about any stream/station I tuned too .. Well, it just so happened that Saturday, Windoze was also locking up on boot, and a couple of times after rebooting the DTV tuner card wasn't "working" either ...the problem there turned out to be this goofy case(Gateway PC) doesn't adequetely/firmly seat the PCI cards into place(I need to fix that with some "real" screws/etc), and they needed to be reseated .. Since I reseated them, I've seen no continuity errors, go figure, although that would not be something I would have thought would cause those, LOL ...