Hmmm ... Well, Attached zipfile is TSreader HTML output results from a less than 2 second or so TS file, using the TSfile off disk as the TSreader input source. Note : Run time says 3 seconds because I couldn't "stop" TSreader fast enough once it said it was at end of the tsfile. The TS source file captured to disk first here using WatchHDTVTS Scheduler. Just glanced over it quickly, Everything pretty much seems to be there, even the detailed program descriptions from EIT's ...

took a ~3 sec (11MB) cap of 84
attached is what tsreader reports
(compare to the 6 min 1.64GB 1907 cap)
ps - tsreader didn't even try to create any thumbnails

edit: huh - just noticed in both your 'after midnight' and the above...
Any idea what pid 0x1fa5 is (in the bandwidth chart)?

update: we may be on to something here;
also attached are 3 sec (11MB) cap output for 85 and 86
All the PAT/PMT info is complete in these...

They have Thompson studio cameras and Panasonic field cameras. Scripps will be changing to JVC HD next year.

The studio cameras were bought in 2004. The production switcher was purchased this yearSo was the conversion gear.

Interesting...

tuned to ket5; waited for it to 'stop'
tuned to 85-2, then to 84-1 (wlwt), which decoded
bounced between 85-2 and 84-1 several times - everything worked
after (I'd guess) a minute of this back and forth, 84-1 stopped decoding
(and nothing else on 84 decoded)

I'll repeat this again tomorrow to verify behaviour.

Note: Oops! In the process of what I thought was creating a "new" post, I later accidently deleted some of the comments in this post I hope they weren't too useful or important as I don't know what they were now !




update: we may be on to something here;


Personally I think William has stated the best "theory" so far of what may be happening.

And I think it's possible what he's thinking may be going on also may very well relate to some of the things we are seeing regarding the differences in our TSreader HTML output files ... Such as the possibly seemingly "weird" 00x052 PID address for KET3 program, and "missing" KET4 service ID(or whatever it's called) listed in PMT section in TSreader in all your caps you've posted .... (note: You'll see that service ID listed in TVCT as well, but If I recall correctly, I thought it is actually coming from ETT) .... Update: Or maybe even the missing detailed program descriptions from your caps from the EIT's -- Although then again that may just be something TW isn't carrying as well, as they do have their own EPG ....

Update 8/21 : Then there's the 19:07 file you posted with seemingly missing info on the KET3 audio/video streams in PMT, with the pid usage chart showing "unknown" for what is probably the KET3 video, audio streams(PID 00x53/etc ..)

Still, if it happens to be the case there is an issue that they can and do fix, I'm thinking it's still in the realm of possibities your/some decoders may have some problems, as it just seems strange to me the way you've described how it behaves with QAM regarding certian channel selection/tuning issues ....

And, don't hold me to this as my brain is *really* fuzzy regarding all of the details, but after you had mentioned it, Seems like I do recall some reports scattered around this forum of the earlier LG QAM implementation having some problems somewhat along the lines of what you're getting in certian sets, and for instance the other thread you'd posted earlier ... It's not like that was that long ago either, 2 years ago or less, and I think probably involved some of the LG 4th generation stuff with QAM ... For instance, like splicer010, I'd bet if you could check it OTA, I'd bet you'd have no problems decoding WCVN-DT/KET or WLWT-DT streams properly at any time .. Granted they are seperate transport streams OTA, and I could be wrong but, otherwise the only difference should be the QAM vs 8VSB demod I'd think, as well as any differences in firmware regarding the channel "selection" issues involved ...

Also, It's just so difficult to read many of the reports here on such stuff(such as from different areas and regarding certian equipment) and get any kind of real idea of what may be going on ...

It sure would be nice if we could get some more reports from folks using their own "clear QAM" tuners+TW where All KET/WLWT services(including between 8~12am) is working/decoding just fine for them, as well as info on the equipment they're using ....

The studio cameras were bought in 2004. The production switcher was purchased this year. So was the conversion gear.... They have Thompson studio cameras and Panasonic field cameras. Scripps will be changing to JVC HD next year.

Welcome to AVSforum and Thanks for the info ... I'd heard they bought the HD studio cams around the time they moved the studio, and had seen JVC press release several months back about Scripps buying the JVC HD cams, including for WCPO, but didn't know when they might get hold of/start using the HD capabilities of the latter ...

BTW, for some reason, WCPO going HD with their news and your handle reminded me of a story on HD that ran on WCPO, probably around 98/ 99 or so ... There were a couple of stories that ran on local news regarding DTV transistion+HD around that time, but Think it was probably about the Glenn shuttle launch and how some viewing locations had been set up at various public places to watch it in HD .... I remember Clyde Grey making a joke about WCPO-DT's "10 watt Transmitter" as well ....

Service IDs are carried in the PAT to link to the PMT and again in the TVCT to link the data in the EITs to the virtual channel.

^Thanks again william for the correction ...

Of course, KET4 Service ID is showing up from his TSreader HTML output in TVCT, but not in his PAT or PMT ... Again, seems to me that might be something that might happen if what you posted earlier that you suspect may be happening is happening ...

Something similar seems to be the case regarding his channel 85/WCET file as well ...

Plughplover, Splicer010 or anyone else having the KET/WLWT decoding issues with TW QAM :

One more thing ... I've been meaning to ask but keep forgetting it ...

How long have you guys been experiencing this problem? Perhaps that might help william or the TW folks ...

I do know that the 8pm~12am "HD mode" transistion has been going on for a long time, since about early 2003, and I think pretty much the same way as it is done now, except that at first there was only 4 KET services(KET1~4), and only KET3 was "dropped" between 8pm~12am ... KET5+6 were added sometime later, but, if I recall correctly at first the program streams were only there when there was programming on them --- Don't remember it real well, but I think for some period of time even the PSIP stuff may not have been there for KET5+6 unless they were active with programming or occasional "temporary" test patterns/etc .... For a long time over the past several years as I seem to recall you might see KET5+6 active during the day with test patterns or a slate with text, but after 12am "switch", there would be no a/V streams there overnight(but the PSIP stuff was still there - in other words it looks like it does now OTA here on KET5+6 between 8pm~12am), or at least for a couple of hours after 12am ... I don't remember how long it's been since they have kept something "up" on KET5+6(such as KET logo) at pretty much all times, but it doesn't seem like it has been that long ago ... Perhaps a year or so or less ...

I'm in Maineville on the former Adelphia Amelia system. I've had no problems with the KET or WLWT channels on "channel 105" on my Sony KDL-40S2010. I only watched the transition at 8pm once, while on KET4 (105.6) and it dropped out for about a half second then came in HD.

I have a linux/mythtv HTPC with an AirStar HD5000-PCI ATSC/QAM tuner card. Theres a utility called dvbsnoop, and I've been adding some to its decoding of certain "packets". The thing I just noticed (in the 8pm to midnite window), and you kinda said the same thing, is that the PAT has info on 8 programs/sub-channels, but there are only 5 PMT's. KET3, KET5 and KET6 do not have PMTs. Maybe I didnt watch long enough. But maybe some decoders cant handle when the PAT has pointers to PMTs that are never sent.

The other thing, which I think is irrelevant to this problem, is the CVCT does not have an entry for KET4. I think its been that way for many months. So I have to use 105.6 to tune in KET4.

The TW mux will have to rebuild the PAT, PMT and create the CVCT for the stream to work properly along with the PID remaping. WLWT and KET cannot be sharing the same PID or program/service numbers in the stream so they had to move someone ( i'm guessing WLWT since I don't see a remap on our feeds). So far no one from TW has contacted me about this or any issue.

I'm new here. I have an LG set, 32lc2d. I have TWC in cincy. I use QAM. I've been looking over some of these posts. I haven't yet read them all. Tonight I tried getting the Local QAM CADTV channels on the LG set & couldn't get any of the local ones. They do come in OK in the daytime. They also are coming right now on my other HDTV (Vizio VP42). I guess this is the same problem that plughplover has. I don't understand the technical reasons behind all of this though. If I can help, in anyway, such as contacting TWC let me know. I'm in the Northgate area.
My LG also never gets sound on Ch. 101-16, a CET channel.

- Bill B.

Personally I think this is a LG problem. I got this receiver about a year ago and have had this issue the whole time.

^ But that doesn't seem to explain stuff like missing Service ID in PMT/PAT (among other things) via TW's mux which OTOH are there+as they are supposed to be from KET OTA as we are seeing in Plughplovers TS reader HTML output files ...

FWIW, I do know I've had the oppurtunity to experience all sorts of issues stations have ran into regarding this new venture into DTV with several different decoders/chipsets on my end .. In some cases while some of those receivers have been effected by some problems+others not, it's still allways been the case(so far) that a "fix" at the station in order to, for example properly "implement" something or the other has allways fixed the problems that at times have *seemed* like "decoder model or chipset specific issues that are on "my end" ...

In other words, one model of receiver may decode such and such stream(even those not "implemented" properly) just fine while another may not, but that doesn't necessarily mean the real root cause of the "problem" is with the receiver that is having the problem ....

Or In even more "other words", some equipment is a little more finicky about needing things "right" vs. other equipment .... And, I'm just guessing, but I'd venture to guess at this point TW is (or at least has been) probably a little more concerned with their STB's working+decoding everything properly vs. user supplied equipment getting channels vs "Clear QAM" .... Also along those lines, they may not even have any effected equipment regarding this issue to "test it" with to see that something is wrong ....

Yipee, some more feedback! Thanks DaveA28 and blbrodbeck

I've had the problem since I bought the set last December. It took me quite a while to 'zero in' on it. I had random drops during the day - tune away and back usually fixed it. And I had 'no signal' at night. I bought the MDP-130 card so I could do caps and try to get a handle on it. It was the card that revealed the correlation with the ket4 transition to me.

I recognized very early on that this was going to be a great 'finger pointing' exersize; is it KET, is it TWC, is it LG, or even worse a combination? I figured my best hope was to gather as much info as possible and try to get in contact with local engrs. The process is ongoing...

blbrodbeck - very interesting, a third LG unit showing the problem.
Now we've got a lst3510a set-top, a 32fs4d crt and a 32lc2d lcd.

BTW, re: 101-16 - I saw that also way back when and it took me a while to figure it out. The audio stream is Dolby Digital, but for some reason the sample rate is 32K rather than the 48k standard rate. It's on my list to call them at some point (cetconnect.org/learning 345-6566)

Anyway, yes, at some point it may be helpful to have your contact info; simply calling TWC won't be enough, as it is *HARD* to get to the 'right' people.

I'd venture to guess at this point TW is (or at least has been) probably a little more concerned with their STB's working+decoding everything properly vs. user supplied equipment getting channels vs "Clear QAM" ....
nightwatchman - I agree 100%; in addition, if they advertised / publicized the availability of clear-qam dtv feeds to basic/standard tier customers, well it has both support implications (like this case) and marketing implications (how much of the 'hdtv tier' is clear-qam ?)

William Smith - please check PM; I'll be sending one shortly.

A note about News in HD...

Glad to see WCPO-DT doing the HD news. John Kiesewetter of the Enquirer has an article (see quote and link below) that talks about timetables for some of the other stations. Of particular note, WXIX is a bit of a surprise, saying they expect to do this "next year." WLWT's response is the same one I've gotten when I've asked (decision will be made by Hearst-Argyle corporate offices).

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070821/ENT/708210307/1025WXIX-TV (Channel 19) likely will start local news in HDTV next year, says John Long, general manger. For competitive reasons, Richard Dyer, WLWT-TV (Channel 5) general manager, didn't want to say when local news HDTV broadcasts will start.

Chris Sehring, WKRC-TV (Channel 12) vice president and general manager, said he could not talk about a date until completion of the sale of station owner Clear Channel TV to Providence Equity Partners Inc.

"Local news cut-ins during ABC's "Good Morning America" couldn't air in HDTV because of Channel 9's news ticker across the bottom of the screen. New equipment will remedy the situation by October, Fee says."

Looks like the same issue for not having "Good Morning America" in HD. If anyone knows, what's the difference between the old SD ticker and the new HD one, why couldn't this be used on GMA. I don't think it is a real big deal as GMA is very soft now. I think the sharper the picture is, the better everyone looks, not the opposite. These news people need to get over it! I think the soft picture actually makes people look older, but thats me.

WXIX-DT is very interesting. I believe that they have a better commitment to HD than the others do sometimes, including doing the Bearcat games 2 years ago.

As far as growing pains with WCPO-DT, seems like all the problems are getting resolved pretty quickly, including some problems with the weather graphics.

because of Channel 9's news ticker
Screw the damn ticker! If people want SD with ticker they can go to analog 9! :rolleyes:

I am a die hard WLWT news fan. But with WCPO gone HD, I will not watch WLWT until they also go HD...I watch WCPO for local in HD then I switch to NBC @ 6:30 for the evening news in HD...

Here's a little more info. on my setup, which may (or may not) be helpful.
My LG 32lc2d gets KET4 on 84.6, it remaps all of the other KET channels to the correct channel 54 subchannels.
My Vizio VP42 doesn't get KET4 anywhere. It does get all of the other channel 54 channels & remaps them correctly. This really annoys me because KET4 broadcasts in HD 4 hours a day.
Also, since last week "broadcast 48-2" (now CET-World) is not remapping (in QAM) anymore on the LG (it's coming in on 85-9), and it's now not showing up anywhere (in QAM) on the Vizio set.

I am a die hard WLWT news fan.
I didn't know there were any others out there!
But with WCPO gone HD, I will not watch WLWT until they also go HD...I watch WCPO for local in HD then I switch to NBC @ 6:30 for the evening news in HD...I still think WLWT's picture quality is "near-HD" as it is... just not 16:9. I will probably watch a bit more of WCPO now though.

That is interesting - my LG doesn't remap *any* of the of the qam streams. I assumed it is because it simply doesn't support it; now I'm starting to wonder... perhaps it wants CVCT rather than TVCT data.

Also interesting that your Vizio can't 'find' ket4 at all. I wonder what chipsets it uses...

Hopefully we see a snow ball effect that happened in Cleveland, with Fox going HD in 2004, NBC in 2006 and ABC in early 2007 and CBS in September. I would guess our order is ABC, FOX, NBC, CBS.

I have been using a Winegard Square Shooter 2 with outstanding results. 'Signal levels' on my TV and DirectTV HR20 were consistently 90+ for my OTA signals. I went out of town this weekend and now my OTA signals across the board are low 20s if anything at all.

The antenna is pointed exactly where it was before I left.

Does anyone have any ideas what I should look at first?

That is interesting - my LG doesn't remap *any* of the of the qam streams. I assumed it is because it simply doesn't support it; now I'm starting to wonder... perhaps it wants CVCT rather than TVCT data.

Also interesting that your Vizio can't 'find' ket4 at all. I wonder what chipsets it uses...

I don't know what Chipset it uses.

The LG & Vizio remote controls are interchangeable though. Does this mean that their tuners were made by the same company, if their remote codes are the same? A button on the Vizio remote calls up a hidden service menu on the LG set.

WCPO-DT now has its 6 PM news in HD. All the studio shots are widescreen but some of the field reports are "blue barred" or stretched but some look to be HD. The stuff from ABC looks stretched. The weather maps look great in HD.

It's just too bad that WCPO is the hardest local station to get OTA. I have to watch WKEF in Dayton to watch anything HD on ABC.

// Scott A

Hopefully we see a snow ball effect that happened in Cleveland, with Fox going HD in 2004, NBC in 2006 and ABC in 2007. I would guess our order is ABC, FOX, NBC, CBS.

Wouldn't WXIX-DT need to purchase a HD encoder on top of the other equipment necessary to make HD news happen? Also, keep in mind that Raycom owned WOIO has also not gone HD. I would guess WXIX-DT will be the last in our market

I am a die hard WLWT news fan. But with WCPO gone HD, I will not watch WLWT until they also go HD.


To me, NONE of the local stations do a very good job on local news so, quite often, I watch the news on several stations at the same time. I have a DVR and I can pause one and switch to the other one. Having said that, now that WCPO has all thier newscasts in HD I am more likely to watch WCPO as one of those station. WKRC is likely to be my "secondary" station now because, IMO, they do a little better job (but still suck) on the local news. I do like the "news people" better on WKRC (can't stand some of them on WLWT) but I don't watch news for the "news people", I watch it for the NEWS and the news looks better in HD.

I don't know what Chipset it uses.

The LG & Vizio remote controls are interchangeable though. Does this mean that their tuners were made by the same company, if their remote codes are the same? A button on the Vizio remote calls up a hidden service menu on the LG set.

Don't know, but that is a pretty remarkable coincidence!

I did some searches and couldn't find a service manual or more detailed info on the 'internals'. Seems there is a thread dedicated to it here
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=756696
Someone over there might know...

I went out of town this weekend and now my OTA signals across the board are low 20s if anything at all.

The antenna is pointed exactly where it was before I left.

Does anyone have any ideas what I should look at first?


Maybe make sure a squirrel hasn't chewed through the coax run or something like that ...

If it's amplified, you might want to make sure the amp is still getting power ....

That's probably where I'd start ....


Wouldn't WXIX-DT need to purchase a HD encoder on top of the other equipment necessary to make HD news happen?


They have HD encoder, and I think it was JY dogg who reported they just got a new one (Harris NetVX I believe.

They couldn't send 720p without one. While using the Fox "splicer" for HD, it's true During FOX HD programming the HD encoder is at the network and the FOX HD is is spliced "in", effectively bypassing the local encoder, they still have to have a HD encoder to send the local/syndicated(and FOX SD feed occasionally) SD upconverted to 720p, as well as the HD Bearcat games in 2005, as well as back in the days before Fox HD when they were upconverting(and encoding locally) the Fox 480i widescreen feed to 1080i.


I would guess WXIX-DT will be the last in our market


I dunno, for instance, I would think if a station needs to replace a bunch of old equipment -- Perhaps from an "economic" standpoint for the long term considering that everyone would probably be "thinking" at some point about going HD anyway --- Going HD at this point might even make more sense for them sometime in the near future than for say, a station like WLWT ...

Maybe make sure a squirrel hasn't chewed through the coax run or something like that ...

If it's amplified, you might want to make sure the amp is still getting power ....

That's probably where I'd start

The amp is getting power. I will check my cable and F compression connectors.

Thanks.

Don't know, but that is a pretty remarkable coincidence!


There seem to be only a handful of chipsets for ATSC/QAM receivers ...

From what I can tell, currently ATI and LG are probably the most popular for setmakers/manufacturers ...


My Vizio VP42 doesn't get KET4 anywhere. It does get all of the other channel 54 channels & remaps them correctly. This really annoys me because KET4 broadcasts in HD 4 hours a day.
Also, since last week "broadcast 48-2" (now CET-World) is not remapping (in QAM) anymore on the LG (it's coming in on 85-9), and it's now not showing up anywhere (in QAM) on the Vizio set.


Note that what is common about KET4 and CET-World in plughlover's TSreader HTML output files from TW's mux'ed streams is that they are "missing" Service ID in PMT/PAT ...(see William's earlier post about Service ID in PMT/PAT+TVCT) ...

The Service ID's are showing up in his files for all the other KET+CET services(although "create" has a weird one of "PN-8") ....

Also, keep in mind that Raycom owned WOIO has also not gone HD. I would guess WXIX-DT will be the last in our market

WOIO-DT goes HD in September, which would make them the 4th(last) to do so. However, Cincinnati is Raycom's second largest market, so should be next in line. The reason for Cleveland getting HD so fast is it's FOX O&O. All the Cincinnati local stations have been doing some form of upgrading through the years, from obivious encoders and transmitters to digital switchers and cameras.

Also, I heard last night that the Bengal's Stripes 2007 program on WCPO-DT will be in HD.

Regarding the Kieswetter article, I noticed he left out Lexington, KY in his list of markets around us in which stations have recently began HD news operations .... I think Two stations there have went HD for local news, WLEX(NBC) and WKYT - CBS affilate which like WKRC is a CW affiliate as well -- Starting yesterday BTW they are sending TWO HD services -- CBS HD and CW HD, both in 720p ....

Oh, BTW, Raycomm also owns WAVE, Lousiville, KY these days. They run NBC HD, and multicast 2 SD services -- WeatherPlus and The Tube. Comparing NBC HD from them to WLWT-DT and WDTN-DT and on one occaison WLEX-DT Lexington(WKOI-DT has to be down for me to have much luck with them on 39), the HD quality defintely suffers from WAVE-DT during bandwidth demanding material much worse than is the case from WDTN-DT and WLWT-DT with their current multicast services -- Seems that usually when I've had a chance to compare them, it was when HD "tonight show" was airing ....

WNWO-DT Toledo is another one not too far away raycom owns, or at least they did in the not too distant past ... They are also NBC HD and run the Tube+WeatherPlus ....

I'm not sure if any Louisville Market stations have went HD with their local news yet, I do know the past few years one station or another has done Local HD production for "Thunder over Louisville" Fireworks show, this year it was from WDRB (Fox) ...

We haven't seen WEBN Fireworks in HD since 2003. WKRC-DT did them (I think) in HD from 2000~2003, the ones I saw in 2002+2003 (2002 especially) were excellent, very "big" multicamera HD productions .... I think they They used a WRAL truck in 2002, in 03 it was a HD truck Clear Channel owned at that time which was also used by ABC for HD MNF that year.

WLWT has the fireworks this year, I believe ...

As far as encoding goes, if a station bought a MPEG4 encoder and used that to encode/compress its signal and then send it to a MPEG2 encoder, would it work? Secondly, would the station be able to use the benefit of MPEG4 but still send out MPEG2.

Alex,

when they were in business(not around here, but in some markets) USDTV used portions of stations bandwidth to send MPEG4 streams for a pay OTA service (they had 12 SD channels on it, such as Disney channel/etc) ...

The MPEG4 streams(or just about any sort of "data" really) can be encapsulated/sent in a MPEG2 transport stream ....

But, you wouldn't encode as MPEG4 then send it to a MPEG2 encoder, the MPEG4 would have to be decoded, first before reencoding with MPEG2 ... Which wouldn't make any sense ...

MPEG4 and MPEG2 streams can both be sent, but there's still the 19.39Mb/s "limit", and no current OTA DTV Receivers (STB's or internal to sets) I'm aware of support MPEG4 decoding(other than a few of the USDTV boxes that had the upgrade for it, and that might just work with their implementation of it on the what were the USDTV streams with the pay TV stuff), a hardware upgrade would be required ....

Basically Meaning anyone who has bought a HD set with internal receiver or DTV receiver/STB so far would be screwed if a station for instance, sent a single bandwidth limited SD stream at 480i using MPEG2-*, and used the rest of their bandwidth for HD MPEG4 streams ....

* - which is something they are required to do by FCC currently -- The MPEG2 stream is supposed to be of a quality that is at least as "good" as the analog signal, and it has to be sent "free to air" - "legally" speaking a station can do pretty much whatever they want with the remainder of their bandwidth, including various sorts of datacasting(remember "webhopper"?) MPEG4 streams or conditional access("encryption"), although any revenue on any such "ancillary" services which involve for instance subscription fees, involve a "tax" to the gov't from the station ... I can't remember if it's 5% or 15% of the revenue ...

edit: huh - just noticed in both your 'after midnight' and the above...
Any idea what pid 0x1fa5 is (in the bandwidth chart)?




It's allways there, including currently ... Can't find any reference to what it is, so I'd guess it *could* be for their Datacast service ( http://www.ket.org/dtv/datacasting.htm ).

Which may be something TW doesn't carry, I don't know ... Could be something else too, for instance as mentioned earlier I don't see any info in TSreader on the CVCT.


Was reading back through some of these+ also managed to accidently delete/lose some comments of mine in an earlier post in the process(sorry, hopefully wasn't anything of any importance in there) ...

Anyway, a bit of a "correction" here of sorts ... Don't think that stream(the PID at 0x1fa5 address that seems to only be there OTA, not in TW's mux) could be CVCT given the bandwidth usage of it .. about 2Mb/s when they are in 6 channel SD mode and 200Kb/s in HD mode in the TSreader export files I've provided ...

Also, a CVCT doesn't seem to be sent OTA, at least not from any stations I have seen. In addition to TSreader, an undocumented service menu info screen for the ATSC/QAM streams on my sony set with internal ATSC/QAM receiver doesn't show CVCT as being sent OTA by anyone ... Perhaps the Cableco has to generate CVCT ?

Someone said the Bengals opener is on ESPN in HD. Doesn't Ch. 12 usually simulcast the Bengals ESPN games if they're sold out? Since this is opening day (night) too I would think there's a chance the game would be on Ch. 12 too, .......... hopefully in HD. ESPN could restrict the local broadcast station to SD I suppose.

Just got off the phone with Jack U. (TWC field engr), and I'll probably be speaking with Mike B. (TWC head-end engr) later this week...

blbrodbeck -

Any chance you are in a position to get KET (wcvn-dt) OTA? (I'm not). It might be useful to know how your LG handles the 8PM transition with the 'original' signal.

Thanks

1Fa1-1Fa6 are datacast

Someone said the Bengals opener is on ESPN in HD. Doesn't Ch. 12 usually simulcast the Bengals ESPN games if they're sold out? Since this is opening day (night) too I would think there's a chance the game would be on Ch. 12 too, .......... hopefully in HD. ESPN could restrict the local broadcast station to SD I suppose.

I would expect WKRC-DT to carry the game in HD. They installed the equipment last year to show games from ESPN in HD. WLWT-DT installed equipment to show the game from the NFL Network in HD. I don't know if this equipment is channel specific or just a general receiver. If it is general, either WKRC or WLWT could carry either stream in HD.

Also, if anyone could check, WLWT-DT should have PSIP data, their server locked up.

Just got off the phone with Jack U. (TWC field engr), and I'll probably be speaking with Mike B. (TWC head-end engr) later this week...

blbrodbeck -

Any chance you are in a position to get KET (wcvn-dt) OTA? (I'm not). It might be useful to know how your LG handles the 8PM transition with the 'original' signal.

Thanks
I can't get any KET digital channels OTA. Sorry

I found another comment on LG QAM on this Web Page
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=685784&pp=30&page=4
scroll about 80% down the page & look for a comment from someone named "STEELERSRULE" It was posted 8-22-06, so you may have seen it already.

Also, if anyone could check, WLWT-DT should have PSIP data, their server locked up.

Yep, their EIT/ETT(Includes the OTA EPG info) is back at 3:20pm EDT Today.

blbrodbeck -

Any chance you are in a position to get KET (wcvn-dt) OTA? (I'm not). It might be useful to know how your LG handles the 8PM transition with the 'original' signal.

Thanks

I believe there may be others who post here who have the same specific set(the LG one anyway) using OTA, hopefully they'll be able to respond to that ....

Do note that if there were problems with their OTA signal with any LG chipset, I suspect William and friends at KET would have tested it and/or would know about it by now ;)

FWIW, I think I described most of the below earlier, but perhaps in more detail, again in case it is of any use :

As I noted earlier I have LG chipsets in two of my receivers . One of them is "mostly" 4th generation chipset - a Zenith HDV420 -- Should be "mostly" the same as the LG4200 in the post blbrodbeck posted a link to, but the Zenith HDV420 receiver is an early 4th generation implementation and it does not do QAM ..

The other is LG 5th generation "tuner"/8VSB or QAM demod in my PC tuner card (which doesn't have a hardware decoder) ....And it works just fine as well, but most of what goes on with the streams(all of the decoding although It's hardware assisted by video card hardware with some decoders I use) and "selection"/tuning of channels/etc is handled in software(some of it I'm using utilizes the PSIP/TVCT info being sent, some which doesn't)

I think this is what you're mostly interested in : The behavior with the LG's with KET OTA is the same as with my other receivers (Which use the ATI chipsets I believe, don't know what my RCA DTC-100 had in it, it's a receiver I no longer have, but it worked fine with KET as well).

All of the receiver's I have, or have owned "behave" the same way regarding this -- Video/audio decodes fine on all active KET program services at all times, all PSIP/EIA-708 captions etc work fine from them as well. The "switch" on KET4 from 480i to 720p at 8pm and 720p to 480i at 12am happens without a hitch, pretty much in the "blink of an eye", less than 1/2 second between "perfect" 480i SD video/audio and "perfect" 720p video+audio would(and vice versa at 12am) probably be accurate enough to describe what happens ....

... KET 1~6 have video/audio on them from 12am~8pm, at 8pm(within a minute of 8pm regarding KET5+6/etc as William explained), KET4 "switches" from 480i to 720p(it happens in blink of an eye) video/audio disappear from KET3, 5+6, but virtual channels(from TVCT) 54.3, 54.5, 54.6 are still "there", just blank, at 12am(again just 30 seconds later for KET5+6) the video/audio comes back on 54.3, 54.5, and 54.6 ...

On the DTC-100(again I no longer have it), I could turn PSIP "off" entirely,/not use PSIP with it and instead only use the MPEG2 info(such as from PAT/PMT's)from the streams, and it worked the same as described above , except without the PSIP(EPG info/VCT info), and with RF channel #(24) and the program Stream #'s instead of VCT info ... specifically, and in "order" from WCVN-DT --- KET1~6 at : 24.3, 24.4,24.5, 24.6, 24.7, 24.8 instead of 54.1, 54.2, 54.3,54.5, 54.6 from the TVCT ...

I occasionally receive other KET transmitters OTA as well when band conditions "allow" and it's the same with them as well(only different VCT Major Channel #'s), which makes sense given how william has described to us in the past how they're "set up" ...

I've noticed the WSTR-DT is running a much lower powered signal than usual. I can't even get a lock on the station which is usually the strongest I can get. I wonder if they are doing tower work or something?

Quick update to my last post, I remembered the LG chip's numbers in my Zenith STB wrong -- I found the pic I took of top of LG chips in Zenith HDV420 -- It's LGDT3102, there's also LGDT1301A(The MPEG2 Decoder maybe/probably? I had looked that up once but forgot it) in there as well.

More detailed post and discussion of various chipsets cabiliabities(mostly relating to OTA reception) can be found in this thread :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6048570#post6048570

I've noticed the WSTR-DT is running a much lower powered signal than usual. I can't even get a lock on the station which is usually the strongest I can get. I wonder if they are doing tower work or something?

Not seeing any sign of that here, currently. They're as strong as ever.

However, another poster earlier seemed to have noticed a change for the worse in his reception of them, and as noted in earlier posts by myself and others, they were off air quite a bit last week. And, they do have several applications to modify their facilities that show up on FCC site, there's so many of those apps, it's difficult to sort out what they are going to do exactly .... Some of them do involve antenna height modification(one of them involves lowering antenna on their tower), I'm not sure about the pattern ....

The way they were down only during the Day most of last week, coming back on the air in the evenings, and then down all of Friday~Sometime Sunday would seem to be right in line with what would happen if they were doing tower work, making changes to the antenna (the analog was on air throughout however) ...

Update: oh, I recall the application to FCC to lower their transmitting antenna height also asked for increased power levels to 900 KW ERP (I think there current operating permit is for either 500KW ERP or 675KW ERP -- again it's a little difficult to sort out what is what with all the recent applications they've submitted to FCC ... See here for example(note it will say there are more than 50 records, do you still want to receive them all -- Click "yes" ) :

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_list.pl?Facility_id=11204

Update 2 --- Hmm, well, I think I may have figured it out The CP for them to increase power but lower antenna height doesn't show up as "approved" yet, but they asked for a STA to do the pretty much same thing, and it was granted on 8/8/07 by FCC :

Here's the application itself (which was granted)

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101195641&formid=911&fac_num=11204

so, If I'm reading that correctly Looks like they've "moved" (or are going to) their transmitting(for digital) antenna from about 872 Feet up on their tower "down" to 820 Feet up on the tower.

And, although the STA asks for 675KW ERP and "more power", and they have a CP MOD for 675KW ERP at the higher antenna height, they've also asked(in a CP mod app) for a power increase to 900KW ERP for the lower antenna height ... From what I've looked at so far, it's unclear if the antenna pattern(and therefore the antenna itself) has changed from their "old" licensed facilites, which was was 500KW ERP, and the "granted" STA for 675KW ERP is asking for the power increase from 500KW ERP (it's in the exhibit from the consulting engineer that is attached to the application itself, which is available at above link, the "STA" they were using he talks about however is not listed/shown at FCC site from what I can tell -- It's not the 17KW ERP, as for instance it was for 500KW ERP I believe, and it's one that was applied for/granted in 2006, not 2002 ..) ......

Now, I have no idea if they are currently operating at lower power levels than any of the above seems to suggest, as for instance I had no problem getting them with a strong signal "way back when" they were operating at 17 KW ERP via a STA ...

Update 3: After looking more at the exhibit from consulting engineer attached to the STA app granted 8/8/07, along with the text in the "main" app where it says the lowering of antenna height was necessary to accomodate "other" broadcast facilities on the tower --- It the attached exhibit, near the end there is a sketch that shows WSWD-FM and WGRR-FM antennas a "above" the new WSTR-DT antenna height on the tower ...

Monday night the 5:00 PM newscast was HD as well as the 5:30 and 6:00 PM. Tonight thet are back to SD. I wonder what happened. Maybe they came out with the HD before they were really ready.

Monday night the 5:00 PM newscast was HD as well as the 5:30 and 6:00 PM. Tonight thet are back to SD. I wonder what happened. Maybe they came out with the HD before they were really ready.At 5:04 PM they suddenly went to HD. Must have the Sunday night trainees on tonight.

OK blbrodbeck, thanks anyway. (And no, I hadn't seen that post)

nitewatchman, it wasn't so much that I wanted to test the OTA reception, it was simply that I wanted to be able to say to TWC's Mike B. "... have no problem with the OTA signal". I've got that from splicer010, I can't test it, was hoping blbrodbeck could...

and FWIW,

1) my LG was tuned to 84-1 wlwt for 4+ daytime hours yesterday and 6+ daytime hours today and no 'random drops'. Earlier this year, at one point, I had a hypothesis that these glitches occurred when one of the ket feeds did something / switched something during the day. But it doesn't seem to be happening any more, whatever it was.

2) hooked up my old AccessDTV card today; 'sync up' times on 84 are consistent with 85/86 based on several random tests.

3) saw the post about wlwt epg being back, took a cap to see what if any effect. attached...

4) re: TWC 80 being 'in the clear' - can confirm this (all except 80-12 decode) and it been that way a few days. Out of curiosity, took a cap yesterday. An interesting mix of stuff in that stream. Attached...

5) re: chip info - thanks, I'll check it out.

OK blbrodbeck, thanks anyway. (And no, I hadn't seen that post)

nitewatchman, it wasn't so much that I wanted to test the OTA reception, it was simply that I wanted to be able to say to TWC's Mike B. "... have no problem with the OTA signal". I've got that from splicer010, I can't test it, was hoping blbrodbeck could...


Yep -- I realized that, and was going to say something to that effect in my post but decided not too in order to "shorten it" a bit ...

I do wish you could use OTA with your equipment however(and what I've been trying to do, probably more than anything else is give you a better idea of how that would work - or in other words how it is "supposed" to also be working for you via QAM), as I think it would be a lot easier+clearer for you to see the "differences" of what is/may be happening with it ATSC 8VSB via KET's Mux* vs. QAM TW's Mux ...

* - Or any other station carried on TW's system, as at this point I suspect gauging from some of the stuff that seems to be "missing" in your files from TS reader from for instance, WCET, that it's possible TW may have some problems with their mux on other channels besides 84 as well, it's just not as "apparent" perhaps, as since they aren't adding/removing streams like KET does at 8pm/12am perhaps your decoder can still handle those problems better ...


) saw the post about wlwt epg being back, took a cap to see what if any effect. attached...


Along with the some of the other apparently "missing" stuff(such as KET4 service ID MIA all the time) I'm still guessing the missing PMT info for KET3 ONLY (which is there in the KET stream "from" KET when they're in 6 channel SD mode) may be a key thing here, possibly along with the KET3 PID remappings to those "weird" PID's,(ox0052/etc) whearas none of the other PID's for KET remap, although the program #'s for KET5+6 do ....

-----------

Good luck with your work with the TW folks ... I think if you can help them get this straightened out, it will make a lot of folks having problems with this very happy ....

Also ... from earlier post in response to a post from blbrobeck ...


That is interesting


Yes it is ... At the risk of repeating myself(thought it necessary for my next comment) specifically, in regards to William's post about Service ID in the various tables and how they work/what they are for, and that he's not remapping to TVCT channel #'s ONLY in cases where the service ID's are also missing in your TSreader output files for CET world and KET4 ...


That is interesting - my LG doesn't remap *any* of the of the qam streams. I assumed it is because it simply doesn't support it; now I'm starting to wonder... perhaps it wants CVCT rather than TVCT data.


Seems very possible, perhaps even likely if it does happen to support the CVCT remapping(but not TVCT as blbrobeck's receiver seems to do), and if so I think also may possibly be a "key" thing here, at least regarding what you are experiencing ...

The reason why I think it might be important is because with OTA receivers *some* of them do not behave very well at all if the TVCT info isn't present or is implemented "improperly" ... In fact, I think I've seen reports where nothing was really "wrong" with the stations stream other than PSIP being "missing", and some OTA receivers couldn't decode the streams at all! This might seem strange since PSIP data isn't strictly "necessary" to be able to decode the datastreams, but evidently, for some receiver designs it *is* necessary .. It doesn't take too much of a stretch to think that the same sorts of things may happen with *some* QAM decoders if CVCT or TVCT (or PMT/PAT) info isn't sent or sent properly ...

Then again, I wouldn't think you'd need CVCT info for the stuff available on TW "clear" QAM that doesn't come from a ATSC source(broadcasters), and therefore there is probably no PSIP present ... So, in that sense, it doesn't make sense they would design the thing where CVCT would be necessary ...

I really don't think you can look at this from purely a main "chipset" specific issue however, as these sorts of channel "tuning" issues I think can be implemented very differently among different brands of sets or STB's with the SAME chipset ...

I need to 'revise and extend' one of my earlier statements.
2) hooked up my old AccessDTV card today; 'sync up' times on 84 are consistent with 85/86 based on several random tests.
until the ket4 transition...
all other channels sync-up in 2-3 seconds but 84 is now taking just over a minute.

(as I posted earlier, it uses NXT2000 demod and Janus decode chips)

sigh

Watching the Reds vs Braves this evening on Fox Sports and the announcer said that the game was being televised in HD. Any idea where? I have TW and OTA? Might it be Direct TV?

Thanks, Gary

Not seeing any sign of that here, currently. They're as strong as ever.

However, another poster earlier seemed to have noticed a change for the worse in his reception of them, and as noted in earlier posts by myself and others, they were off air quite a bit last week. And, they do have several applications to modify their facilities that show up on FCC site, there's so many of those apps, it's difficult to sort out what they are going to do exactly .... Some of them do involve antenna height modification(one of them involves lowering antenna on their tower), I'm not sure about the pattern ....



I hope they did not sacrifice viewers in the southern part of their viewing area with the antenna/power changes. I just tried to turn my antenna which I have on a rotor and there is no way to get a strong signal in Grant County KY any longer where as it used to be one of the strongest signals in this area.

just a quick note.. the CVCT is NOT generated at the station. Its a table inserted by cable to allow tuning to the local cable channel number. I'll bet that when you switch to QAM tuning the receiver ignores the TVCT and looks at the CVCT for its tuning information. The receiver should have this data in its memory from the last valid channel scan.

^ Thanks ,as I was wondering about that as well (where CVCT comes from) ... maybe I missed it somewhere, but with all the info that is in it, I couldn't figure that out from ATSC A65c document ...

I hope they did not sacrifice viewers in the southern part of their viewing area with the antenna/power changes. I just tried to turn my antenna which I have on a rotor and there is no way to get a strong signal in Grant County KY any longer where as it used to be one of the strongest signals in this area.

Yeah .. Sure seems a bit strange just based on what I found at FCC site about it, both for you and the other poster that said he was having problems with them Sunday(not sure where he was located, and not sure if his report was from before or after they came back on air sometime sunday) ... Unless perhaps there's a severe terrain issue, or multipath issue involved and them moving the antenna a bit lower on the tower made all the difference(for the worse) ...

And, Just going from memory as I can't find the "old" antenna pattern info, but I *think* it's exactly the same (probably the same antenna for that matter, but not sure) .... Here' is the current(if they've already started using the 675KW ERPSTA, and it's for their 900KW ERP app at the new lower antenna height as well) -- Again, just going from memory, Pretty sure it looks just like the Old pattern or pretty much :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=80054&rotate=0.00&p0=0.940&p10=0.865&p20=0.775&p30=0.684&p40=0.593&p50=0.497&p60=0.392&p70=0.280&p80=0.197&p90=0.184&p100=0.226&p110=0.257&p120=0.227&p130=0.183&p140=0.194&p150=0.278&p160=0.393&p170=0.502&p180=0.599&p190=0.688&p200=0.778&p210=0.873&p220=0.951&p230=0.993&p236=1.000&p240=0.998&p250=0.976&p260=0.944&p270=0.918&p280=0.901&p290=0.895&p300=0.908&p310=0.921&p320=0.942&p330=0.974&p340=0.995&p350=0.985&p360=0.940&

----------

I don't have any contact info for their engineers(their phone #+address is shown on their website, though), but, if it doesn't "clear up" for you soon, it would be nice to hear from them about it ...

Hopefully they're just running at low power temporarily, but everything I can tell from here would seem to suggest they aren't ... For instance, I'm getting AGC readings of 18~19% from them on one receiver, which is consistant for them(lower AGC readings are stronger signal) and pretty much the same as the other high power stations in the area, 32db SNR reading and 98(out of100) "signal strength"(which is wrong, it ain't measureing signal strength, it's probably best thought of as a signal "quality" meter ...

I haven't tried adding add'l attenuation into feedline yet to see how much attenuation it takes to lose a lock from them, but normally it is a lot, and didn't seem necessary given the AGC readings/etc noted above ..

^

----------

I don't have any contact info for their engineers(their phone #+address is shown on their website, though), but, if it doesn't "clear up" for you soon, it would be nice to hear from them about it ...



Hopefully they're just running at low power temporarily, but everything I can tell from here would seem to suggest they aren't ... For instance, I'm getting AGC readings of 18~19% from them on one receiver, which is consistant for them(lower AGC readings are stronger signal) and pretty much the same as the other high power stations in the area, 32db SNR reading and 98(out of100) "signal strength"(which is wrong, it ain't measureing signal strength, itthought of as a signal "quality" meter ...


I sent an email to engineering@my64.net which seems to be the correct address. Hopefully I will here something back from them.

Twice now since the midnight switch, Leno when going to commercial (or back from commercial, I forget which) the audio has completely dropped out and the video switched to a VERY jerky WeatherPlus video...I have to either manually re-enter 105-1 or hit the previous channel button twice to get the 'normal' audio/video to return. This has happened before but it has been awhile. Thought you guys with the equipment/testing stuff may have seen a blip in the tables or something like that...:confused:

Watching the Reds vs Braves this evening on Fox Sports and the announcer said that the game was being televised in HD. Any idea where? I have TW and OTA? Might it be Direct TV?

Thanks, Gary

It's not on D*, but it may get added next month. I'm actually not sure who gets it today, maybe Insight or E*?

Sometimes DirecTV will put the reds on 94 or 95 as a part of the MLB EI package - so if they use the fox ohio feed, then you would get it. Not sure about last night though.. But as of right now, Disnhetwork is the only one that has it.. or at least they announced it a while back,,

From my reading of the atsc docs, I would expect to see TVCTs on an OTA signal, and sometimes see a CVCT on a cable signal (if they wanted channels remapped, ie, broadcast programs). So on my cable connection, I have seen CVCTs on 105, 109 and 114 using dvbsnoop on linux. Those are the frequencies where all the broadcast channels are.

But plughplovers dump from cable shows TVCTs. I know that the CVCT and TVCT have almost identical formats, with different table IDs. So I wonder if TSreader has one decoder for both, and is mislabeling CVCTs as TVCTs. Not that this would affect the problem, but could be confusing our attempts to diagnose it.

I think TW is generating the CVCTs from scratch rather than taking the TVCTs and merging them together. Not that in plughplovers D85 dump, channel 8 in the "TVCT" section has a service name of "PN-8", which I don't think WCET would be sending in their TVCT. Its probably a default string in their system (Program Number 8), that someone forgot to update. Also the channel number in that entry is "0.0" which is clearly wrong; probably should be 48.2. Some QAM TVs might let you tune to 0 and get that.

Watching the Reds vs Braves this evening on Fox Sports and the announcer said that the game was being televised in HD. Any idea where? I have TW and OTA? Might it be Direct TV?

Thanks, Gary

The Fox CN (Cincinnati) RSN HD channel is on DISH's 129 satellite and it is only on when there is a Reds game in HD. All the rest of the time it just shows a placecard "DISH HDTV" with background music.

TWC Issue:

I've had Time warner Cable for years and never had this problem.

A little over a week ago their analog signal changed. Now the analog cable channels look washed out, like you turned the color bar on your TV from 90 to 10. The brilliance and brightness is gone. This does not affect the picture coming out of the converter box, only the analog. This is easily demonstated by comparing shows I've taped a couple weeks ago with ones taped recently.

I've called them and the person I spoke to had a hard time even pronouncing analog let alone have any technical know how, but they are sending out a tech on Friday. I'm guessing they turned down my signal strength but we'll see. It's almost like watching B/W television now. Any ideas?

A little over a week ago their analog signal changed. Now the analog cable channels look washed out, like you turned the color bar on your TV from 90 to 10. The brilliance and brightness is gone. This does not affect the picture coming out of the converter box, only the analog. This is easily demonstrated by comparing shows I've taped a couple weeks ago with ones taped recently.

I've called them and the person I spoke to had a hard time even pronouncing analog let alone have any technical know how, but they are sending out a tech on Friday. I'm guessing they turned down my signal strength but we'll see. It's almost like watching B/W television now. Any ideas?

If they lowered your signal, then you'd usually get more fuzzyness with truly analog channels rather than a loss of color saturation.

Just to make sure we're all on the same page, when you say "taped" you really do mean with a device known to some as a VCR (or possibly a non-TWC DVR)?

If so, have you tried eliminating the VCR from the equation? This should tell you if the problem is from the source or a possible problem with the VCR.

But plughplovers dump from cable shows TVCTs. I know that the CVCT and TVCT have almost identical formats, with different table IDs. So I wonder if TSreader has one decoder for both, and is mislabeling CVCTs as TVCTs. Not that this would affect the problem, but could be confusing our attempts to diagnose it.

In the tsreader gui, it is labled CVCT. I actually just noticed that yesterday, and some of what William was posting earlier suddenly made much more sense.

Note that in plughplovers D85 dump, channel 8 in the "TVCT" section has a service name of "PN-8", which I don't think WCET would be sending in their TVCT. Its probably a default string in their system (Program Number 8), that someone forgot to update. Also the channel number in that entry is "0.0" which is clearly wrong; probably should be 48.2. Some QAM TVs might let you tune to 0 and get that.

Hey blbrodbeck - what happens when you enter 0 on your Visio? ref->

Also, since last week "broadcast 48-2" (now CET-World) is not remapping (in QAM) anymore on the LG (it's coming in on 85-9), and it's now not showing up anywhere (in QAM) on the Vizio set.

The recordings were done with a DVD recorder/HDD. The recordings were done on the same show on a weekly basis on the hard drive. I also have other sources of analog cable. A VCR on another TV in which we can use PIP and the difference is obvious. There is also a bedroom TV exclusively on analog cable and that is washed out as well although I can't prove it with recordings to compare to. There we're going strictly on memory.

Is this not correctable by adjusting your sets? If not, then I would recommend calling back and trying to get someone beyond the 1st level support. I would assume you'll need to call during business hours to get the kind of person that would be able to make saturation adjustments.

Is this one channel or all channels?

I've noticed the same wash out effect on the one TV where I do not have a digital converter. This TV is in my workout room and I generally just watch the morning news shows while working out. FOX/CNN/MSNBC were "faded" but CNBC was over saturated. Don't know what the problem is but it is definitely observable. I corrected by increasing the color setting somewhat.

Is this not correctable by adjusting your sets? If not, then I would recommend calling back and trying to get someone beyond the 1st level support. I would assume you'll need to call during business hours to get the kind of person that would be able to make saturation adjustments.

Is this one channel or all channels?

I've tried correcting it with user menu adjustments and no, it doesn't correct the picture to my satisfaction. If it did I wouldn't have even called the cable co. The picture is not unwatchable but it's nowhere near the quality that it was before. I pay them nearly $100 a month. There's no reason for me to have to stomach a poorer quality product.

As near as I can tell it's all the channels. It's hard for me to say for sure because the PQ varies from channel to channel anyway and I don't watch (nor tape) them all regularly. I can prove my point on channel 56 and 62 because those both have a before and after recording on the HD.

Have you checked with a different television???

Have you checked with a different television???

Yes, the pic is washed out on three different TVs. In addition to the one with hard drive there's one which has a VCR on it and a third which has nothing but a coaxial/analog wire connected to it. The pic is noticably washed out on all three.

I stand by my recommendation to call TWC back during "normal business hours" and try to get past the 1st level support. A tech visit likely isn't going to fix your problem and they may not bother pursuing it any further themselves.

I stand by my recommendation to call TWC back during "normal business hours" and try to get past the 1st level support. A tech visit likely isn't going to fix your problem and they may not bother pursuing it any further themselves.

I'm not confident they'll do anything about it either. I don't know how to find a decent tech there but I think your advice is sound. If I get through to anyone I'll post my findings

From my reading of the atsc docs, I would expect to see TVCTs on an OTA signal, and sometimes see a CVCT on a cable signal (if they wanted channels remapped, ie, broadcast programs). So on my cable connection, I have seen CVCTs on 105, 109 and 114 using dvbsnoop on linux. Those are the frequencies where all the broadcast channels are.

But plughplovers dump from cable shows TVCTs. I know that the CVCT and TVCT have almost identical formats, with different table IDs. So I wonder if TSreader has one decoder for both, and is mislabeling CVCTs as TVCTs. Not that this would affect the problem, but could be confusing our attempts to diagnose it.


I was thinking both TVCT and CVCT(when present) may be present with the cable signal, and some of the non-TW supplied QAM decoders may be using TVCT info, perhaps unless there is CVCT present, and as william said, some decoders (such as Plughlover's) may be ignorning TVCT + looking for CVCT ...

If CVCT is not there and the decoder doesn't look at TVCT, or all the info that needs to be there in PAT/PMT and CVCT isn't there(or TVCT if the specific make model of receiver can use it) ... Then, all they'll have to use (if they don't get totally confused) and "fall back" to is is the RF channel #(on the cable system, which could be different on different head-ends, and could change occasionally) and Program #'s, ... Some OTA receiver's can't do this, but The latter is also what OTA receivers use that can be used w/o PSIP, the RF channel being the channel of transmission(such as 24 in WCVN-DT's case) ....

For instance, My Sony HDTV's internal tuner, OTA, can be used w/o or with PSIP info, basically depending upon what channel you "tune to", although there are "channel scanning" issues involved when you use it with PSIP(you have to "scan in" the channel before it can be used with PSIP for instance), and you can't "tune" directly/manually to a "real" RF channel/program stream # with it if it is the same Channel # as is being utilized by a VCT major channel number that has been scanned+found and placed in it's "channel memory"(kind of like a "saved" VCT list that it stores) .... I assume the same may be true using it with QAM/cable or perhaps even with it's "cablecard" slot+QAM as well ...

So, on WLWT-DT, I can tune to 35.1 (without PSIP) and see their "HD", and 35.2 for Weatherplus, or 5.1 for "HD" and 5.2 with PSIP (VC from TVCT) ... Most stations currently however start with the first program stream number as "3" (and it's first PID 0x0030, although that's not necessarily anything of importance other than FCC requires stations send all PID's for program streams at PID of hex 30 or higher) .... such as 34.3 for CET-HD, which is 48.1 in TVCT, and 34.4 for CET world which is 48.2 in TVCT (substitute CReate for PBS world up until august 15) ..

why have the first program number as "3" ? --- I'm trying to remember as I think this may have been related to WXIX's issue back when FCC started requiring stations to start their Program stream PID's at Hex 30 or higher -- I think for some stations it may be an equipment issue, and for instance they have to have the program stream # such that if a PID for the program is at hex 30, the program number has to be 3 ... But, perhaps other stations don't have that equipment issue .. such as in WLWT's case where for WLWT-DT's 1080i HD service it's PID at 0x0050 is program # 1, and it works just fine ...

I know, it sounds weird+is totally unrelated to the issues you guys are looking at, but in case you're interested there is some info on it still, here :

http://www.atsc.org/pid_changeinfo.html

Update: Well, actually on 2nd thought there is quite a bit of text at that URL which might help some understand the importance of the broadcaster and cableco getting all this sort of info "correct", such as PID addresses and various entiries in in PMT/PAT and TVCT/CVCT .... here's one short quote :

"....These tables and numbers operate behind the scenes, but the association among them must be correct for receivers tune to and find program services properly. " .......


I think TW is generating the CVCTs from scratch rather than taking the TVCTs and merging them together. Not that in plughplovers D85 dump, channel 8 in the "TVCT" section has a service name of "PN-8", which I don't think WCET would be sending in their TVCT. Its probably a default string in their system (Program Number 8), that someone forgot to update. Also the channel number in that entry is "0.0" which is clearly wrong; probably should be 48.2. Some QAM TVs might let you tune to 0 and get that.

I think the PN-8 service ID is for Create, WCET-DT doesn't send that one OTA -- We only get CET-HD, and CET-World, the latter which did not show a service ID in Plughlovers Tsreader HTML dump ...

8/15 was when WCET-DT (OTA) "switched" 48.2 from "create" to "CET-world" ....

As you say, using what the broadcasters send in TVCT(such as 48.x for WCET services on cable) seems to make the most sense(at least to me) but I do wonder if TW is implementing CVCT, if they might "want" to use the same channel #'s that their "boxes"/STB's uses rather than the TVCT info/channel #'s from broadcasters ....

Update: Also was thinking, in some cases when broadcasters send ASI feed to cableco via fiber instead of the head-end picking up what they're carrying OTA, suspect in some cases some things could be different as well, but usually not the MPEG2 encoded program streams ...

When the Reds were using their HD cameras last night on FSN the PQ looked much better on the TW SD feed compared to when they use the older SD cameras.
The picture seemed sharper and less grainy or was it my imagination?

Thanks, Gary

Anchorman Woman on TW 919 is listed as HD. Why is it coming through in SD?

Jack U. called me from TWC this evening. He was sitting there with a clear-qam capable Toshiba. We both tuned to wlwt-dt and waited. My set 'lost signal', his still had wlwt. He then tried to tune the KET feeds; got ket1 and ket2 - and that was it. His set would NOT decode the ket4 HD stream.

So, another set, another 'effect', and he seems convinced there is something funny...

I've noticed the same wash out effect on the one TV where I do not have a digital converter. This TV is in my workout room and I generally just watch the morning news shows while working out. FOX/CNN/MSNBC were "faded" but CNBC was over saturated. Don't know what the problem is but it is definitely observable. I corrected by increasing the color setting somewhat.

OK, I've looked at this more closely and you raise a good point. I would say that the channels are washed out on ch 42 and above. From 41(weather Ch) on down it's fine. If I pump up my color level to 95-100 the Reds game on 43 is OK but things below it will be oversaturated.

I'll try to discuss this with a tech 'cause I doubt their "repairman" will do anything. I just wondered whether anyone around here had any ideas.

re: At 8:55pm Anchorwoman was 4x3 on FOX HD feed(from Fox) both WXIX-DT and WRGT-DT, so it's from Fox that way, not WXIX (or WRGT) ..... Several commercials/Fox promos that just ran during last break were 16x9 from the same feed from Fox as well ..

HD "listings" are often wrong ....

"bones" is HD from Fox at 9pm ...

Hey blbrodbeck - what happens when you enter 0 on your Visio? ref->[/QUOTE]


I can't get to Ch. 0 directly with my remote. I can get there with my Ch. up & Ch. down buttons on the remote. The on screen info. button identifies the station as PN-8 It is CET-Create.

New tonight. ... I was able to get KET4 on my Vizio now. It showed up at 54-4, but, at 8 PM when KET switched to HD I lost the picture. I still have the sound though. On the Vizio screen a (Vizio) message comes up identifying the program as an "Audio Program".

OK, I've looked at this more closely and you raise a good point. I would say that the channels are washed out on ch 42 and above. From 41(weather Ch) on down it's fine. If I pump up my color level to 95-100 the Reds game on 43 is OK but things below it will be oversaturated.

I'll try to discuss this with a tech 'cause I doubt their "repairman" will do anything. I just wondered whether anyone around here had any ideas.

The cable companies CANNOT control the chroma levels. That is all interpreted by your sets...However this is not saying that there could be something wrong with an LE or Amp that could possibly affect the chroma...Very unlikely though.

Jack U. called me from TWC this evening. He was sitting there with a clear-qam capable Toshiba. We both tuned to wlwt-dt and waited. My set 'lost signal', his still had wlwt. He then tried to tune the KET feeds; got ket1 and ket2 - and that was it. His set would NOT decode the ket4 HD stream.

So, another set, another 'effect', and he seems convinced there is something funny...

Excellent!!! This helps to prove I was wrong about it being a set issue...unless of course the Toshiba is also running the same 'chip' that the LG's are running.

For the record I left my tuner on 105-1 (WLWT) but was watching a DVD...When I switched back to the tuner side 105-1 was now showing 105-33 (WeatherPlus) with no sound and very herky jerky movement of Derrick whatever (WLWT's head weather guy) as he moved about. When I reentered 105-1 mnually I got the dreaded 'NO SIGNAL' message on screen...

I've seen the WCPO HD newscast a couple of nights this week and thought it looked great (at least the actual HD parts)!! One of the most stunning parts was the weather radar. Any chance the weather tracker (9-2) could go HD? Do they have enough bandwidth to do that or would that take more precious bandwidth from 9-1?

I can't get to Ch. 0 directly with my remote. I can get there with my Ch. up & Ch. down buttons on the remote. The on screen info. button identifies the station as PN-8 It is CET-Create.

Well spotted, DaveA28. With TWC sending a CVCT remap to 0 for CET-Create, seems like there are sets that will actually obey it.

I'll mention that one to Mike B. when I talk to him about the 84 stuff.

I've seen the WCPO HD newscast a couple of nights this week and thought it looked great (at least the actual HD parts)!! One of the most stunning parts was the weather radar. Any chance the weather tracker (9-2) could go HD? Do they have enough bandwidth to do that or would that take more precious bandwidth from 9-1?

Tonight a few times the video was shown in SD. The people looked squished horizontaly. As if it was original HD or wide screen and squished to SD.

Jack U. called me from TWC this evening. He was sitting there with a clear-qam capable Toshiba. We both tuned to wlwt-dt and waited. My set 'lost signal', his still had wlwt. He then tried to tune the KET feeds; got ket1 and ket2 - and that was it. His set would NOT decode the ket4 HD stream.

So, another set, another 'effect', and he seems convinced there is something funny...

Thank You for getting in touch with TWC plughplover. Tonight was the first time ever I could get KET4 on my Vizio VP42. Now here at 10:10 PM I'm getting the HD picture too!

I've noticed on both my sets, with TWC Cincy QAM channels when I call up the EPG, the time is off by 1 hour. It's still on Standard Time. I believe this info. is being sent out by TWC. This throws off the EPG. 48-1 seems to be the only local QAM channel with no guide info. being sent.

About 10 days ago when I first started getting
80-1 CNN international
80-5 Boomerang Cartoon Network
80-6 Starz Edge
80-7 Starz In Black and
80-13 Fox Reality
The EPG showed the times & dates for these channels being off by hundreds of years. Now they're all off by only 1 hour too, so I believe TWC is the one sending out the wrong time with they're QAM channels.

Thank You for getting in touch with TWC plughplover. Tonight was the first time ever I could get KET4 on my Vizio VP42. Now here at 10:10 PM I'm getting the HD picture too!

Your post seems to imply you are seeing the results of some changes in the TWC feed. As far as I am aware, my contacts with TWC have not yet resulted in any actions on their part. However, I will take some more caps today and see if anything shows up.

re: channel 80 - I posted a cap of that feed earlier. Three of the streams (-6,-7,-12) are tagged as Digicipher2 (but only -12 has a Conditional Access descriptor) and one of them (Fox Reality, -13) has two MPEG audio streams in addition to the AC3 stream. It is interesting how much they compress those streams; several of them are only 528x480i; only the Fox feed is SD 720x480i

The amp is getting power. I will check my cable and F compression connectors.

Thanks.

Turns out the Amp was defective.

Ain't customer service grand?

I just called TWC attempting to reach a tech and was told they don't have any direct lines to the "district" and that the only way to talk to a tech is to have them come to the house. I told them that I wasn't sure a house call would address the problem and I thought a phone call might save them the trip but she said no that was my only option.

I doubt I'll have any better luck with whatever clown they send out to my house.

As of this morning these TWC QAM channels are scrambled now.

80-1 CNN international
80-5 Boomerang Cartoon Network
80-6 Starz Edge
80-7 Starz In Black
80-13 Fox Reality

I guess that was a 10-14 day free trial from TWC.

On my LG this morning I can't get QAM CADTV 5-1, 5-2, or any of the KET channels. They all come in fine on my Vizio, which is on the same cable. I guess this is the problem plughplover has had all along. I think I'm going to return the LG, & buy a Samsung. I really want a set with 2 digital RF inputs, and Samsung is the only other brand I know of that has 2 RF inputs. (Pioneer may have it too, but, my experience is that they're much more expensive.) The newer LG's don't have 2 RF's anymore either. That seems to imply that they knew something was wrong with they're sets & they made some changes.

I got something from TWC Cincinnati in the mail today announcing they're upcoming channel changes. Among other things it says they will be offering 64-1 by August 29th.

And what channel is 64-1?

And what channel is 64-1?

Local channel WSTR-DT will now (for the first time) be available (in digital form) on TWC

They are farting around with 101 today - perhaps that's where WSTR is going to end up...

Took a cap of 84 a little while ago, and there are some differences.

Attached

Took a cap of 84 a little while ago, and there are some differences.

Attached

I noticed the *VCT now has an entry for KET4.

Something I noticed that I think you guys already touched on: the PMT for KET3 does not show up in the PMT section for your cap. But it does show up in the PID usage chart (0x0052). I wonder why... CRC errors?

PMT for KET3 should be 0x0050 not 0x0052..

I noticed the *VCT now has an entry for KET4.
and KET4 now has a service id
and the html file has more than doubled in size (eit/epg?)

Something I noticed that I think you guys already touched on: the PMT for KET3 does not show up in the PMT section for your cap. But it does show up in the PID usage chart (0x0052).

PMT for KET3 should be 0x0050 not 0x0052..
In looking at nitewatchman's OTA caps, I see that 0x0050 is used OTA, and is listed that way in the PAT. In the TWC cap, they have it listed in the PAT as 0x0052. And the bandwidth chart shows there was some amount of data for PID 0x0052, so it isn't as though TWC aren't sending packets with that PID. But for some reason tsreader isn't interpreting the data inside those packets, and hence marks 0x0053 and 0x0054 as 'Unknown Usage' and leaves the PMT section for KET3 empty.
I wonder why... CRC errors?
Well, there was only one CRC error reported in the entire 7 min capture. But there were 432 'Continuity errors' - might that be why tsreader isn't seeing it?
Let's see: 7 min = 7*60 = 420 seconds vs 432 continuity errors
or approximately one continuity error per second.
I wonder how often that PMT is sent?

Wish I had a tool that could pick out the packets for that PID and show them.

DaveA28, will your 'dvbsnoop' tool do that?

Wish I had a tool that could pick out the packets for that PID and show them.

DaveA28, will your 'dvbsnoop' tool do that?

Yes. This is from the Amelia head-end, so its on channel 105. It is very verbose. The azap command tells it to tune to a certain frequency, then I used several dvbsnoop commands to dump different things. The first one, the pidscan, is similar to the PID usage chart in tsreader. Then I dumped a 0052 PMT packet, and 0060 for comparison.

The 0052 PMTs seem to be sent every tenth of a second.

Curioser and curioser... They look essentially the same to me.

Only thing I saw that was a bit puzzling was the 'maximum bitrate'.

Since ket3 and ket4 are currently carrying the SAME programming, I'm a bit surprised that this value is so differant (452550 vs 324800 bytes/sec)...

Sending updates every tenth of a second seems excessive to me (but I'm NOT an expert in these matters), but it would seem to shoot down my hypothesis re: continuity errors.

I wonder why tsreader isn't processing these PMT packets...
Does some spec say the PMT pid MUST be of the form 0xXXX0 ?

Some good stuff from The Masked Engineer (http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0081/t.8009.html) this month ...

Have to agree with him, and I'm all for receiving SD as SD and HD as HD + for instance, KET4's 480i/720p "switches" work great here ...

Although, OTOH, I suppose WLWT-DT's upconverts do look quite good ....

I've not changed the bit balance in the stream since we started the 3 and 4 simulcast.. no time..

Only thing I saw that was a bit puzzling was the 'maximum bitrate'.



here's a "hoot" ..... Look at the bitrate descriptor for WLWT-DT's 1080i video stream(you'll find these in the TSreader PMT for the various streams/PID's listed for each program stream) :

Elementary Stream PID 81 (0x0051) MPEG-2 Video
MPEG Video: Bitrate 65.000 Mbps Resolution 1920 x 1080i
MPEG Video: Framerate 29.97 fps Aspect Ratio 16:9 Chroma Format 4:2:0

------------

And WKRC-DT's 1080i video stream :


Elementary Stream PID 49 (0x0031) MPEG-2 Video
MPEG Video: Bitrate 80.000 Mbps Resolution 1920 x 1080i
MPEG Video: Framerate 29.97 fps Aspect Ratio 16:9 Chroma Format 4:2:0
Descriptor: Video Stream Descriptor
Multiple frame rate flag: False
Frame rate: 29.97¼
MPEG-1 only flag: False
Constrained paramter flag: True
Still picture flag: False
Descriptor: Data Stream Alignment Descriptor
Alignment type: video access unit

--------------

They've been like that at least for the last year, and obviously 80 or 65 Mb/s is wrong ... I don't think it should cause any problems, though ...

some info on these descriptors as TSreader implements/shows them is here :

http://www.coolstf.com/tsreader/descriptors.html

See the PID usage info or graphs in TSreader for accurate bandwidth/bitrate info per stream ...



I wonder why tsreader isn't processing these PMT packets...
Does some spec say the PMT pid MUST be of the form 0xXXX0 ?

While there are some specific requirements for PAT PID address and null packet stream, I've been doing quite a bit of looking, but can't find anything that may be definitive requirement for what you're asking ....

As noted earlier, I do know this is the the way it is from all broadcast DTV TS's I've seen(and how it's listed -- for all of them per FCC rules and for other "Reasons" the {x} below will be a value of 3 or higher ) :

PMT PID for the PS = 0x00[x]0
ES PID 0x00[x]1 (elementary video stream)
ES PID 0x00[x]4 (elementary audio stream #1)
ES PID 0x00[x]5 (elementary audio stream #2)

PCR PID 0x00[x]1 (same as for ES video stream) PCR is "Program Clock reference" for the decoder timing ...

---------------

I'm not sure if this "scheme" is required by ATSC or MPEG standards, if it is I can't find the info on it in ATSC documents(which doesn't mean it's there somewhere however! ) ... I did find possibly related comment in last paragraph at following link :

http://broadcastengineering.com/infrastructure/Atsc-transport-stream-20050607/

Where it says :

" Technical correction: Reader Robert Gross points out that in the May 16, 2005, issue of Transition to Digital, "ATSC transports streams," it was incorrectly stated that " …there is a defined relationship between video and audio PIDs for a given program".

As he notes: "This was present in the original version of the standard (ATSC A/53) and was known as the program paradigm. The program paradigm was dropped from the standard in later versions. The video and audio PIDs for each program are listed in the Program Map Table for that program and referenced in the Service Location Descriptor of the Virtual Channel Table."

Thanks for setting the record straight.


------------------------------------

This info on MPEG2 encoding requirements "suggests"/recommends Video stream PID's at 0x0011, 0x0021 or 0x0031, and audio PID addresses "+3" higher ...

http://www.electrosonicmedianetworks.com/el_support/el_support_encoding_req.html

But keep in mind, as is described at this link I provided in an earlier post as well as is specified in ATSC documents, all "content" streams from U.S. DTV broadcasters must have PID at 0x0030 or higher due to requirement that went into effect in early 2005 :

http://www.atsc.org/pid_changeinfo.html

Also perhaps of some interest in the pidchange info document is the following info, which refers to the same info as the broadcast engineering article :


When the ATSC Standard was first adopted, there was a relationship between the program number and the audio and video PIDs called the program paradigm. The program paradigm was removed from A/53 by Amendment 1 in 2000, but some systems still use it. If such systems are set to use program number 0x01 or 0x02, they will generate PIDs below 0x30, which will be invalid after January 1 [insert : Jan 1, 2005 when the new rule went into effect]. While not necessary for all systems, if program numbers for each service are set above 0x03, any automatic numbering of PIDs will fall into the valid range. Just using program numbers over 0x02 may expedite making the change and with some systems is required.



Then there are some specs as listed in following document that seem to refer to something called SMTPE-312M seamless splice point requirements, that say program PID shoud be 0x0010, video 0x0011, audio 0x0014 ... (I assume the 0x0010 is just an example and should be 0x00[x]0 /etc, with the "x" being 3 or higher ...)

http://crwww.com/CRWeb/PDF/SignStream_ATSC_TS_Specifications.pdf

-------------

Also, if You haven't already looked at them, I do think you may find several of the documents at below links quite informative regarding the "issues" you are looking at as well as to better understand the info your seeing in tsreader, or just if you have an overall interest in how "this stuff works" or at least how it is supposed to work .... -- Note there is some excellent info on these regarding "ATSC", but also regarding MPEG2 and the transport stream -- So, for instance Much of the info in these docs is just as applicable to the broadcasters DTV signals carried via QAM via cable as they are via 8VSB OTA :

http://www.atsc.org/standards/a53.html

Note: both the A 53 docs and a54 "recommended practices" docs contain quite a bit of info, including on the ATSC/MPEG2 transport stream specifics/guidelines ... I often refer to the A54 "guide to DTV standard", and it's probably the ATSC "whitepaper" I refer to/look at the most .... In this case, you might especially want to review section 7 "DTV transport" of the A54 "guide to DTV standard" docuement -- Here's a direct link to the a 54 document (PDF) :

http://www.atsc.org/standards/a_54a_with_corr_1.pdf

The ATSC PSIP documentation, for the current version of the standard, A 65 C can be downloaded from here :

http://www.atsc.org/standards/a65.html

You might also want to look at A78 "Transport Stream Verification" recommended practice document, maybe you might find something in here :

http://www.atsc.org/standards/a_78a.pdf

Other ATSC specs/downloads can be found here+you should be able to find the ATSC candidate standards or other recommended practices downloads from ATSC sites easily enough from their menu options :

http://www.atsc.org/standards.html

--------------------------------

Update :

and, If you're brain hasn't leaked out your ears or isn't totally scrambled after reading through some of that for a while AND you can retain all the info you've learned from it after say, 6 months time, then perhaps you have evolved into "super- engineer man", and likely have capabilities beyond the capabilities of most of the rest of us mere humans ... ;)

But keep in mind, as is described at this link I provided in an earlier post as well as is specified in ATSC documents, all "content" streams from U.S. DTV broadcasters must have PID at 0x0030 or higher due to requirement that went into effect in early 2005 :

http://www.atsc.org/pid_changeinfo.html


So the WLWT HD streams on TW are not following that requirement. Not sure if thats only meant for OTA signals. And I don't think any receivers would care about them being under 0x30.

For anyone interested, I did a dvbsnoop of all 8 PMTs on the WLWT+WCVN channel, before and after 8pm. On the one after 8pm, 3 of them found no packets because KET3, 5 and 6 are off the air after 8.

Lots of great info and pointers nitewatchman; thanks.

The thought crossed my mind to simply ask the tsreader devo's why it wasn't finding that pmt in my caps (which I might try)...

...Anyway...

I went back through the tsreader exports I've kept, and to my surprise, one (and _only_ one) of them had PMT data for ket3. It was one of the first few caps I did with the mdp-130. I started the cap 5/30 at 10:02PM and let it run through the midnight transition. I no longer have the cap itself, but...

given a segment size of 2GB (= 7+ min), the 17th segment would have covered the 7 minutes right around the ket4 HD->SD transition (7*16=112 min after 10:02). My old analysis of that particular segment (which I kept) shows PMT data for ket3 (attached). It also shows ket4 in SD mode, so it may have spanned the transition; I'm just not sure...

I could have sworn I'd seen ket3 PMT data in other caps, but none of the exports I've kept (except that one) actually have it. I may have to focus some attention on the midnight transition to see if it shows up again - and when, and perhaps why.

So the WLWT HD streams on TW are not following that requirement. Not sure if thats only meant for OTA signals.


I'm only aware of it being a requirement for DTV broadcasters(OTA).


And I don't think any receivers would care about them being under 0x30.


They don't. It was a "international coordination issue" whatever that means ... Many stations(including around here) had them under Hex 30 before 2005, PID PMT 0x0010 was usually program 1, 0x0011 video, 0x0014 audio ....

They can't be at 0x00 though, as that's is required PID for PAT ...


On the one after 8pm, 3 of them found no packets because KET3, 5 and 6 are off the air after 8.


* - Edit/update - This should say PAT not PMT

KET3,5,6 Should be in TVCT(or CVCT) and PMT* between 20:00 and 00:00(more or less) but there are/should not be any video/audio streams for them. As those streams are "removed" at 8pm and replaced by KET4 at 720p HD, then vice versa at 12am ...

As I had posted earlier(and provided example from TSreader HTML output), if you missed it, as it should be From KET signal OTA, KET3, 5,6 are in PMT* and TVCT between 8pm+12am(otherwise, for instance there can be channel selection/scanning tuning issues for some receivers if the PMT/TVCT info on them is removed as well), and there is EIT info for them, but there are no datastreams(Elementary audio video streams/etc.)

Leaving PSIP out of it for a bit , if you haven't already read it, Here's a little something that might be useful info to you or others from ATSC A54/a "guide to DTV television standard" document (http://www.atsc.org/standards/a_54a_with_corr_1.pdf).

This is in the "DTV transport" section of the document specifically from section 7.4.3"PSI"(program specific information, not PSIP - Program and system information protocol) - I've bolded a section near the end which may be of particular interest, but included the rest of this long quote as I thought it necessary to understand what the bolded portion "means" :


7.4.3 MPEG-2 PSI
MPEG-2 Program Specific Information (PSI) provides data necessary to identify an MPEG-2 Program (i.e., the desired service) and to demultiplex (i.e., separate and extract) the Program and its Program Elements from the MPEG-2 single or multi-program Transport Stream service multiplex. The MPEG-2 Systems Standard currently defines five PSI tables: the Program Association Table (PAT), the Program Map Table (PMT), the Conditional Access Table (CAT),the Network Information Table (NIT), and the Transport Stream Description Table (TSDT).

The Program Association Table provides a complete list of all the MPEG-2 Programs (services) within the Transport Stream. The PAT establishes a relationship between each MPEG-2 Program, via the program_number, and its corresponding program map section (properly defined as TS_program_map_section), via the PID value assigned to the corresponding program map section. Transport Stream packets that contain the PAT are assigned to PID 0x0000.

Each program map section contains the mapping between an MPEG-2 Program and the Program Elements. that define the Program (this mapping is called a program definition). Specifically, a program definition establishes a mapping (establishing the relationship) between an MPEG-2 Program Number and the list of the PIDs that identify the individual Program Elements comprising the MPEG-2 Program. The PMT is defined as the complete collection of individual Program Definitions within the Transport Stream, with one TS_program_map_section per MPEG-2 Program. The PMT is unique among the PSI tables in that its contents may be carried as part of different bit streams (i.e., within Transport Stream packets that have different PIDs). This simplifies the addition, deletion, or modification of the PSI for individual MPEG-2 programs, as each can be altered independently. This also simplifies the demultiplexing process as only relevant portions of the Transport Stream need to be parsed by the receiver. In comparison, the other PSI tables are each required to be in its own unique bit stream (within Transport Stream packets of a single, unique PID).

However, even though an MPEG-2 Program is announced in a TS_program_map_section, there is no requirement in MPEG-2 that the individual Program Elements are currently present in the Transport Stream. Furthermore, there is no MPEG-2 requirement that all PIDs currently in use
are described by any PSI table....

The thought crossed my mind to simply ask the tsreader devo's why it wasn't finding that pmt in my caps (which I might try)...


If you do ask them, let us know what they say, as I'm certianly curious ...

Probably a coincidence, but with the "weird" KET3 PMT PID of 0x0052 from TW, it *does* perhaps seem a bit weird that WLWT-DT's (for WLWT-HD - ie their 1080i service) PID's OTA are :

0x0050 - PMT PID
0x0051 - Video
0x0054 - audio ....



I went back through the tsreader exports I've kept, and to my surprise, one (and _only_ one) of them had PMT data for ket3.


Interesting indeed ! Certinaly the first time I've seen it in any of your attached files ... What's interesting too in the tsreader HTML output is that the PMT PID is still the "weird" 0x0052/etc, BUT in the descriptors in PMT and PID usage section the 0x0054/0x0055 KET3 video audio streams are correctly identified as "video stream for program 5"/AC-3 audio stream for program 5 instead of "unknown usage" in the PID usage section shown in all your other files ...

Also interesting, is I notice Service ID(TSreader is showing it as "service name" (including in PMT), TVCT and EIT info appears to be missing from all of WCVN-DT+WLWT-DT's services ... thought may have been because you might not have had output for those "turned on"(checked) in HTML export options .... But, I do notice their "label" is there in the HTML file ...

Weird ! ....

KET3,5,6 Should be in TVCT(or CVCT) and PMT between 20:00 and 00:00(more or less) but there are/should not be any video/audio streams for them. As those streams are "removed" at 8pm and replaced by KET4 at 720p HD, then vice versa at 12am ...

As I had posted earlier(and provided example from TSreader HTML output), if you missed it, as it should be From KET signal OTA, KET3, 5,6 are in PMT and TVCT between 8pm+12am(otherwise, for instance there can be channel selection/scanning tuning issues for some receivers if the PMT/TVCT info on them is removed as well), and there is EIT info for them, but there are no datastreams(Elementary audio video streams/etc.)

Uh... In the zip you posted earlier with the two OTA files
KET1148P.HTM and KET1208A.HTM
there is no PMT for ket3,5,6 in the 11:48PM cap

But I do note that the TVCT data in that cap includes info that isn't present in the CVCT data in my caps. In particular:
Descriptor: ATSC Service Location Descriptor
Service Location Descriptor:
PCR PID 0x0051
Stream Type 0x02 (MPEG-2 Video) ESPID = 0x0051 Language = eng
Stream Type 0x81 (AC-3 Audio) ESPID = 0x0054 Language = eng
Stream Type 0x81 (AC-3 Audio) ESPID = 0x0055 Language = eng

Perhaps the absence of this in the CVCT in conjunction with the absence of similar info in a PMT is 'the problem'...


DaveA28 - thanks for those before and after snapshots.

They raised a question however; tsreader includes info as to mpeg video resolution in its pmt output, but I can't find anything in your snaps, unless its coded in one of those reserved fields. I tried to compare the before/after for ket4 pmt, and nothing jumps out at me as a possibility. Any guesses?

Probably a coincidence, but with the "weird" KET3 PMT PID of 0x0052 from TW, it *does* perhaps seem a bit weird that WLWT-DT's (for WLWT-HD - ie their 1080i service) PID's OTA are :

0x0050 - PMT PID
0x0051 - Video
0x0054 - audio ....

VERY interesting... The plot thickens ;)

Also interesting, is I notice Service ID(TSreader is showing it as "service name" (including in PMT), TVCT and EIT info appears to be missing from all of WCVN-DT+WLWT-DT's services ... thought may have been because you might not have had output for those "turned on"(checked) in HTML export options .... But, I do notice their "label" is there in the HTML file ...
Entirely possible - that was shortly after I first built the system with the mdp-130, was one of the first few caps I did, and one of the first tsreader runs. I was very much in learning mode. I do recall it was that particular long cap that pretty much confirmed for me that my LG problem was related to ket4.

(but I'd still swear I've seen it in other caps I've done)

PMT for KET3 should be 0x0050 not 0x0052..

That's what I thought too ... Certianly seems strange to me, given:

#1). Doesn't look like they are remapping PID's for anything else from KET ..

#2). Wouldn't appear there is anything in the way(for the TWC remapped PID's) from WLWT-DT..

#3.) To me anyway, vs the 0x00{x]0 for PMT, 0x00[x]1 video, 0x00[x]4 for main audio I've seen in every other case ..

Also wonder why KET5+6 program_numbers are remapped from 7 and 8(from KET) to 17 and 18 (Via the TW mux) ... AS they have WLWT-DT's program streams at program #1 and 33 ...

If they didn't remap/renumber the KET stuff, I might be missing something, but was thinking it seems to me they might be able to just leave KET streams "alone", except for the TSID and generating CVCT I suppose, and whatever all it is they're stripping out deliberately ... Edit/update : Well, there's also the info in EIT/ETT, STT/MGT/RRT/TVCT being "combined" from WLWT+WCVN but if I'm thinking about it right, I wouldn't think that should be a problem .....

Just a WAG, but I'm Guessing at this point maybe the PID/program # remapping stuff and what happens to which input stream from which station/etc. may be an equipment or software issue. For example, if they're using something that may be mostly "automatically" generating these remapped PID's and program #'s?

-------------------------

4:30am fri 8/24 UPDATE: IMPORTANT : Some of the info I posted in this post on KET3,5,6 PMT "being there" in the 11:48pm file is inaccurate(but the info on the 12:08am file is completely accurate) .. it was necessary to leave it as it is due to Plughplover's
later response(as I don't want to take away anything from his response it by editing/correcting this). I clarified/corrected this in the post available here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11405779&postcount=7622


Uh... In the zip you posted earlier with the two OTA files
KET1148P.HTM and KET1208A.HTM
there is no PMT for ket3,5,6 in the 11:48PM cap


Update/correction: Sorry! in addition to the "correction" farther above -- Misread the above regarding below response ... somehow(need new glasses I guess) I read that you were referring to BOTH KET1148pm.htm and KET1208a.htm as having "no PMT" with the above, which is obviously NOT the case ....

Huh? Sure there is ... In the 11:48pm file You see KET3,5,6 PMT PID"s listed in the PAT section, as well as the KET3,5 and 6 service ID listed in the "PMT" section of the TSreader HTML output file because of it, but you do not see the elementary (audio video) stream PID's shown "under" the KET 3,5 or 6 PMT entries between 20:00 and 00:00 because at that time there are no elementary streams(no video audio - no "data" packets in other words) present on KET3 5 or 6, as those streams are "replaced" by KET4 720p HD stream as it needs the bandwidth between 8pm and 12am which is utilized by KET3, 4, 5 and 6 (all 480i) from 12am to pm ...

In the 12:08am file, However you see the elementary stream(video+audio/etc) info for KET3, 5, 6 in the PMT section of the HTML output file as well .....

Attached as jpg file is a screencap of the KET PAT and PMT PID "list" currently (23:05EDT) which should hopefully better illustrate what I'm saying ...

4:30am fri 8/24 UPDATE: IMPORTANT : Some of the info I posted in this post on PMT is inaccurate ... it was necessary to leave it as it is due to Plughplover's
later response(as I don't want to take away anything from his response it by editing/correcting this). I clarified/corrected this in the post available here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11405779&postcount=7622


Ok, here's an even better graphic than the above ...

Attached graphic shows what KET3 PMT "looks Like" at ~11:30pm, when there is no active KET3 video/audio streams ... KET3 PMT is still "there" however .... I "click on" the "VCT" under it to view the associated info in VCT, and this is what you get(it tells you about the KET3 audio video streams even though they aren't currently present) .... Note that for this graphic I also clicked on the "+" next to the KET4 Elementary Video stream to expand it so you could see what that looks like as well (assume it works the same way for you) ... but, you DON't get that info or the KET3 elementary audio/video streams listed in/under PMT until after 12am when it becomes adctive again ... That doesn't mean KET3 doesn't "have" a PMT when those streams aren't active(between 8pm and 12am) ....

What does it say if I just "click on KET 3's " PMT PID 0x0050 - program 5 instead in the middle upper portion of window ? This :

Program Number: 5
PCR on PID 0 (0x0000)
PMT Version: 0
Service name: KET3

plughplover .... tonight around 9 PM, after much experimenting I was finally able to get KET channels & WLWT channels on my LG via QAM. I guess LG isn't the problem in my case. I did discover that the QAM CADTV signals have the weakest signal of all TWC channels out here. With QAM 84 (WLWT & KET channels) being the weakest signal of all of them. In fact QAM 84 wouldn't come in at all on my LG if I used a splitter at the end closest to the LG. Even if the splitter is rated up to 1000 MHZ. Despite having a recent TWC install here with all new wires, I also found what I believe to be a "short" in the cable leading to the LG. So, after a lot of fiddling I can now get the QAM 84 channels too. I still get some pixelation on QAM 84 channels though. They came in tonight on 5-1, 5-2, 54-1, 54-2, & 54-4. The cable leading to my LG is long, I guess about 35 feet. I guess I'll replace it or have TWC repair it. I'm also wondering if a cable amplifier might help me out. I suppose the reception problem is worse at night due to heavy cable usage in the area.

Good Luck with your LG.

The cable leading to my LG is long, I guess about 35 feet. I guess I'll replace it or have TWC repair it. I'm also wondering if a cable amplifier might help me out. I suppose the reception problem is worse at night due to heavy cable usage in the area.

Good Luck with your LG.

Why does your cable need replacing???

Depending on the signal level additional amplification may or may not help...

With 1 or 1000 people watching TV the signal strength remains constant, The only time 1000 users causes an issue is with HSI only & even then the signal level still remains constant and does not change...Cable is NOT like power...

Perhaps the absence of this in the CVCT in conjunction with the absence of similar info in a PMT is 'the problem'...


Yes, yes, yes ..... May very well be part of the problem ....

See here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11336290#post11336290

Why does your cable need replacing???

Depending on the signal level additional amplification may or may not help...

With 1 or 1000 people watching TV the signal strength remains constant, The only time 1000 users causes an issue is with HSI only & even then the signal level still remains constant and does not change...Cable is NOT like power...


When I move the cable the signal drops in & out. I believe there is a short in the cable. Signal level on some of my local QAM CADTV channels is about 33%, (or on the line between "bad" & "normal"). Discovery HD theatre 105-11 is at about 90%, (or "good".)

4:30am fri 8/24 UPDATE: IMPORTANT : Some of the info I posted below in this post on PMT, elementary streams+Program streams is incorrect .. it was necessary to leave it as it is due to Plughplover's later response.as I don't want to take away anything from his response it by editing/correcting this). I clarified/corrected this in the post available here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11405779&postcount=7622


plughplover,

Let me try this another way ... Might be helpful to Think of it like this ...

EVERYTHING EXCEPT the elementary data streams(such as video and audio) for KET3, 5, and 6 are There 24/7 in KET's Transport stream OTA .. Everything for all 6 services -- KET1~6 -- Including PAT/PMT, TVCT, EIT's and all the info in those tables ...

The elementary streams for 3, 5 and 6 are there 00:00 to 20:00 (note except for 5+6 getting dropped at 19:59:30 and added at 00:01 or whatever the exact schedule was william provided)

The KET3,5,6 audio+video AND the descriptions in PMT listing in TSreader aren't there for KET 3,5 and 6 elementary streams between 20:00 and 00:00 because the datastreams(audio/video) that contain that info(along with the video/audio/etc) aren't there. But the descriptions(including those that specify the PID's for the elementary streams that aren't there during that time period) do remain present in TVCT between 20:00 and 00:00 ....AND the program_number/service ID info(that "links" PMT to TVCT as well) information reamins in PMT for KET3, 5 and 6 and are there in PMT 24/7 even though there's no video/audio streams(data) available .. If they weren't then OTA receiver's which rely on a "sort of" "saved" version of PSIP TVCT and PMT info in their "scanned" channel memory would never see anything on KET3, 5+6 if the scan had been run on the receiver between 8pm and midnight ...

In other words, you can think of it as the MPEG2 program streams being there 24/7 for all KET services, 1~6, Including KET3, 5 and 6, (and "referenced" in PAT/PMT and TVCT 24/7) it's just that there is no actual "program data" on KET3,5 and 6 available between 8pm and midnight because the HD on KET4 needs their bandwidth ...

That's the way it is FROM KET, such as via OTA, and it should be the same via TW as well(but for CVCT as well as or perhaps instead of TVCT) ... except for the streams(such as for the datacast streams) they strip out "deliberatly" because they don't carry them ...

Yes, the PMT PID is listed in the PAT section. And yes, the TVCT listed info about the elementary streams for that Program Number. But the PMT table output portion of the html file has just three lines, just like mine. ie
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Program Number: 5 KET3
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, look at the bandwidth chart, for bps consumed by PID 0x0050 (not there). So no, there is no PMT data being transmitted. Not only do they shut off the elementary A/V streams, they also shut off the associated PMT data streams. What you are showing in your graphic is derived from the PAT and TVCT; if you click on the PMT line itself, you get (basically) nothing.

BTW, did you look at DaveA28's dvbsnoop snapshots? After 8PM he was unable to capture any PMT packets for ket3,5,6 because they weren't being transmitted any more.

///////////////next\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

I did some captures across the HD->SD transition tonight (attached). Prior to the transition (the _00 file), I have an empty PMT section (like above) and PID 52 consumes no bandwidth. In the capture across the transition (the _01 file), and the (seperate) file after the transition, the PMT PID consumed bandwidth and I have PMT data for KET3 in the html file - ie tsreader processed the PMT packet data and output it in the export files.

Which begs the question, why isn't it doing this in most of my other caps? Does something happen between midnight and 'the next day' that causes the data to no longer be recognizable by tsreader, even though the packets are present (as evidenced by DaveA28's snapshots, and tsreader showing bandwidth consumption by the pmt pid)? Curiouser and curiouser...

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\next//////////////////

In any event, regardless of what's going on wrt tsreader, I think that 'ATSC Service descriptor' thing might just be what I/we are looking for here.

The TWC CVCT does not include this descriptor. The only other place to get similar info is the PMT. However, during KET4 HD programming ket not only shuts off the ESs for ket3,5,6 they also stop sending the PMT tables for those programs (look at the bandwidth chart).

Now put this in the context of what I observe with my set.

I tune to 84 before the transition. My set finds PAT *and* PMT data and initializes; it not only learns the Program Numbers but what ES pids are associated with them. It is happy, and let's me switch between programs.

Now the HD transition happens. My set glitches, but I can recover by switching amongst streams on that channel. It is using the info it learned before the transition; it isn't happy (no longer getting PMT data/ES info refreshes for 3 programs), but it is still working.

Now I tune to another channel, and back to 84. It needs to initialize. It gets PAT, it looks for PMT (and/or perhaps CVCT 'ATSC stream descriptor' but it ain't there either) in order to identify ES's. But it gets stuck - it can't find that info for three programs listed in the PAT. It keeps scanning the transport stream for them, and eventually just gives up, giving me a 'No Signal' because it couldn't initialize.

This scenario possibly explains what happens with my AccessDTV card as well. Except if it can't find PMT's for those programs within a minute, it gives up and simply goes on with what it HAS found. (I thought it was interesting that it consistently took _just_ over a minute to tune 84; I remember thinking - is that a one minute timer I'm seeing?)

Should my set react this way to this situation - no. Should TWC copy that Service Descriptor into the CVCT - good question. Should KET continue sending PMT data for the inactive streams - perhaps. Would my set work with KET OTA signal - with the 'ATSC Service Descriptor' in the TVCT, probably.

All the above 'fits' except for one thing - the test I did during the one minute window between ket dropping ket5&6 and then dropping ket3+switching 4. Specifically, if this problem is as described above, then I should not have been able to tune _to_ 84 during the one minute window. i.e.

If I assume the PMT packets for ket5&6 stopped at the same time as the 5&6 ESs do, then my set should have gotten 'stuck' at that point. On the other hand, if the PMT data stream for 5&6 continues during that minute (ie it actually gets cut with the ket3 cutoff) then that is consistent with the above hypothesis.

And I can test for this; simply do a capture during that one minute window; if 5&6 PMT data stream is dead, then my scenario is wrong. But if it is still there...

And I can test my related AccessDTV card 'timer' hypothesis; the sole remaining developer of the software hangs out in these forums.

Sorry for rambling on, but writing this has helped organize my thoughts.

^ In your new caps, notice KET4 Service ID seems to be there before and after the KET4 switch ...

And I guess I'm confused concerning whether or not you think it's a "problem" that you're not "getting" "PMT at 0x0052 for program 5" for KET3 between 20:00 and 00:00 ... It's not a problem, that's as it should be ...


But the PMT table output portion of the html file has just three lines, just like mine.


That is correct Only regarding my 11:48pm file ...

In my 12:08 AM (midnite is 12AM btw, not 12pm that's noon) file I provided, PID 0x0050 "PMT for Program 5" and bandwidth usage of .02Kb/s is shown for it. and the KET3 PMT listing in the HTML output file is this :

----------------------------------------------------Program Number: 5 KET3
Descriptor: Multiplex Buffer Utilization Descriptor
Bound Valid Flag: 1
LTW Offset Lower: 180 Upper: 180
Descriptor: Maximum Bitrate Descriptor
Maximum bitrate: 506500 bytes per second
Descriptor: Registration Descriptor
Format identifier: 0x47413934 (GA94)
Descriptor: Smoothing Buffer Descriptor
SB Leak Rate: 10130 SB Size: 2048

Stream Type: 0x02 MPEG-2 Video PID 81 (0x0051)
MPEG Video: Bitrate 10.000 Mbps Resolution 704 x 480i
MPEG Video: Framerate 29.97 fps Aspect Ratio 4:3 Chroma Format 4:2:0
Descriptor: Video Stream Descriptor
Multiple frame rate flag: False
Frame rate: 29.97¼
MPEG-1 only flag: False
Constrained paramter flag: True
Still picture flag: False
Descriptor: Stream Identifier Descriptor
03 .
Descriptor: Maximum Bitrate Descriptor
Maximum bitrate: 452550 bytes per second
Descriptor: Data Stream Alignment Descriptor
Alignment type: video access unit
Descriptor: ATSC Caption Service Descriptor
ATSC Caption Service Descriptor:
Language: eng Format: Captions service 1

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio PID 84 (0x0054)
AC3: Bitrate 192 Kbps Sample Rate 48 KHz
AC3: Mode complete main Coding 2/0 L, R
Descriptor: Registration Descriptor
Format identifier: 0x41432d33 (AC-3)
Descriptor: ATSC AC-3 audio Descriptor
ATSC AC3 Descriptor
Descriptor: ISO639 Language Descriptor
Language: eng
Audio type: undefined
Descriptor: Stream Identifier Descriptor
83 .
Descriptor: Maximum Bitrate Descriptor
Maximum bitrate: 27000 bytes per second

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio PID 85 (0x0055)
AC3: Bitrate 192 Kbps Sample Rate 48 KHz
AC3: Mode complete main Coding 2/0 L, R
Descriptor: Registration Descriptor
Format identifier: 0x41432d33 (AC-3)
Descriptor: ATSC AC-3 audio Descriptor
ATSC AC3 Descriptor
Descriptor: ISO639 Language Descriptor
Language: eng
Audio type: undefined
Descriptor: Stream Identifier Descriptor
97 .
Descriptor: Maximum Bitrate Descriptor
Maximum bitrate: 27000 bytes per second

----------------------------------------------------------


Also, look at the bandwidth chart, for bps consumed by PID 0x0050 (not there).


correct, again however only in my 11:48pm file, not in my 12:08am file where PID 0x0050 "PMT for program 5" is listed ...

And secondly, You are correct the PMT/stream for it(as listed in the "pid usage"/bandwidth usage info) is "not there" along with the elementary streams when the service is not active ...

In hopes of simplfing matters, I'm afraid I did post some inaccurate info in the past several posts, and I also incorrectly reffered to "PMT" in my post to DaveA28 when I should have referred to "PAT" ... I'm glad you pointed that out, because I see it just "confused" matters rather than the opposite effect I'd hoped for!

Basically, to detail that, I attempted to "refer to" TS_program_map, and the PMT PID data contained in PAT as "specifically" being something called "PMT", when it's not ... again, That was certianly incorrect, and probably confused matters, the exact opposite of what I was trying to do ...

again Sorry!


So no, there is no PMT data being transmitted.


Not quite, the way I read the ATSC/MPEG2 transport streams specs at least .... The way I'm looking at it is that The PID info for the PMT in PAT *IS* "PMT data" for instance ...

Again, From ATSC guide to DTV standard Document :


The PMT is defined as the complete collection of individual Program Definitions within the Transport Stream, with one TS_program_map_section per MPEG-2 Program.


I will also provide my earlier "entire" quote again from ATSC A54 guide to dtv standard, I've bolded the important portion in regards to PAT, PMT and the TS_program_map function and how they relate .... :


7.4.3 MPEG-2 PSI
MPEG-2 Program Specific Information (PSI) provides data necessary to identify an MPEG-2 Program (i.e., the desired service) and to demultiplex (i.e., separate and extract) the Program and its Program Elements from the MPEG-2 single or multi-program Transport Stream service multiplex. The MPEG-2 Systems Standard currently defines five PSI tables: the Program Association Table (PAT), the Program Map Table (PMT), the Conditional Access Table (CAT),the Network Information Table (NIT), and the Transport Stream Description Table (TSDT).

The Program Association Table provides a complete list of all the MPEG-2 Programs (services) within the Transport Stream. The PAT establishes a relationship between each MPEG-2 Program, via the program_number, and its corresponding program map section (properly defined as TS_program_map_section), via the PID value assigned to the corresponding program map section. Transport Stream packets that contain the PAT are assigned to PID 0x0000.

Each program map section contains the mapping between an MPEG-2 Program and the Program Elements. that define the Program (this mapping is called a program definition). Specifically, a program definition establishes a mapping (establishing the relationship) between an MPEG-2 Program Number and the list of the PIDs that identify the individual Program Elements comprising the MPEG-2 Program. The PMT is defined as the complete collection of individual Program Definitions within the Transport Stream, with one TS_program_map_section per MPEG-2 Program. The PMT is unique among the PSI tables in that its contents may be carried as part of different bit streams (i.e., within Transport Stream packets that have different PIDs). This simplifies the addition, deletion, or modification of the PSI for individual MPEG-2 programs, as each can be altered independently. This also simplifies the demultiplexing process as only relevant portions of the Transport Stream need to be parsed by the receiver. In comparison, the other PSI tables are each required to be in its own unique bit stream (within Transport Stream packets of a single, unique PID).

However, even though an MPEG-2 Program is announced in a TS_program_map_section, there is no requirement in MPEG-2 that the individual Program Elements are currently present in the Transport Stream. Furthermore, there is no MPEG-2 requirement that all PIDs currently in use
are described by any PSI table....



they also shut off the associated PMT data streams.


It's part of the program stream "package" I think ... What they "shut off" is the program stream, so the PMT for that PS as you're reffering to it(PMT) as well as the ES's go too ... but, the info to IDENTIFY the program stream, AND USE the PMT data as necessary when that stream becomes "active" again remains in PAT and/or TVCT/CVCT even when the PS (program stream) is NOT active ..... .

NOTE: I should also not have said in an earlier post you can "think of it" as the program stream "being there" but not containing any data, because that is not accurate and again I was trying to "simplify" a bit in hopes things might be clearer(unfortunetly the exact opposite has occured!).. As the program stream is "not" there(including PMT info that is "specific" to that program stream and has a specific PID when it IS active), only the info to identify it is (in PAT and TVCT or CVCT) ...

I'm going to again repeat a section of the above quote from ATSC document, as I think its especially important :


The PMT is unique among the PSI tables in that its contents may be carried as part of different bit streams (i.e., within Transport Stream packets that have different PIDs).


And this part of it as well ...


However, even though an MPEG-2 Program is announced in a TS_program_map_section, there is no requirement in MPEG-2 that the individual Program Elements are currently present in the Transport Stream. Furthermore, there is no MPEG-2 requirement that all PIDs currently in use
are described by any PSI table....


And if we *really* want to be accurate, I suppose we should accept this following defintion of PMT -- the way I read it meaning there is only ONE PMT per transport stream, and these "pieces of it" (such as for KET3 at PID 0x0052 via TW cable) just being "portions" of it instead of seperate PMTs ....


The PMT is defined as the complete collection of individual Program Definitions within the Transport Stream, with one TS_program_map_section per MPEG-2 Program.


So, in the context of the info from ATSC documents regarding the MPEG2 PSI (program specific information) as well as PSIP VCT info(not mentioned/discussed here) I'm thinking you probably may want to think more along the lines of what is happening regarding the "individual program definintions" as defined above when the KET3, 5, and 6 streams are not active .... (which btw, really I think that *is* what you're doing) ...


I have an empty PMT section (like above) and PID 52 consumes no bandwidth. In the capture across the transition (the _01 file), and the (seperate) one after the transition, I have PMT data for KET3 in the html file - ie tsreader processed the PMT packet info and output it in the export files.


that's as it should be ...


Which begs the question, why isn't it doing this in most of my other caps?


It should have, between 12am and 8pm ....

------------

BTW, did you look at DaveA28's dvbsnoop snapshots? After 8PM he was unable to capture any PMT packets for ket3,5,6 because they weren't being transmitted any more.


Again, That's right and is just as it should be(read my last post please) .... Are you thinking that it isn't ????? See, that's what's confusing me ....

Should KET continue sending PMT data for the inactive streams - perhaps.


Well, see that's what I was trying to say, earlier but I didn't say it very well(or very accurately) ... They(KET) *are* sending the necessary data for decoders to identify the streams, even when they aren't "active", including the PMT PID's in the PAT ...

As for the "PMT data" you are reffering to as is "specific" to say, PID 0x0052 "PMT for program 5" stream --- I don't think they CAN send that when the ES's aren't active, think it's all part of the same "package" (program stream) .... I could be wrong though ... Maybe if you get a chance ask William that question specifically, so he doesn't have to be expected to read through all of this ...



Sorry for rambling on, but writing this has helped organize my thoughts.

No need to apologize, IMO .. I've done it as well ...

But personally I think you're contributing in a manner that is one of the things that makes AVSforum great, and It's just this sort of thing that I've allways enjoyed reading on AVSforum, even when I'm not "particpating" in the discussion .... It's one of the ways how I learn things ...

-----

I think we are in violent agreement: You said "it" was present in all your caps, I said "it" wasn't in your 1148p cap, and we were assigning differant meanings to "it". The actual PMT section packets for ket3 (see davea28's snapshots) were not in the stream because ket turns that stream of packets (pid 50 in your case) off. Hence the tsreader html output, in the PMT section for ket3, was essentially empty - there was no data to report on.

That lack of output _seems_ to be the same as in my caps but isn't. In your OTA 1148P case the packets weren't there; in most of my cases they were but (for some unknown reason) tsreader isn't interpreting them.

I have an empty PMT section (like above) and PID 52 consumes no bandwidth. In the capture across the transition (the _01 file), and the (seperate) one after the transition, I have PMT data for KET3 in the html file - ie tsreader processed the PMT packet info and output it in the export files.


that's as it should be ...

Agreed - so why/when does tsreader stop interpreting them when the packets _are_ present? The html output makes it seem the data isn't in the stream, yet the bandwidth chart (and davea28's snapshots) say it is.

The interesting point in common between the 'old' (5/30) cap I posted and the ones above, is that tsreader DOES interpret the ket3 PMT section packets - shortly after the midnight HD->SD transition - but appears (at this point) to NOT do so for caps I take during the day or evenings prior to 8PM. Remember when I said "I could have sworn I'd seen that section of the report populated before" but could only find the one instance?

A mystery, one that caused some confusion ('it is missing in your caps'), but I also have to ask myself, 'could whatever is causing tsreader a problem also be the cause of splicer010 and my problem?' My gut says 'no', but...

Would my set work with KET OTA signal ...


Yes unless there's something wrong with it (probably quite unlikely) ....

You said "it" was present in all your caps,


Oops! LOL ... I see what problem is now ... NO, actually I was saying the same thing you were(well more or less in this context) , but I see I made another mistake!

The problem was, I originally misread your post in response to my response to DaveA28 -- as I read it at you saying "it" *was* in both caps, so then I went to pointing out how the 11:48pm stream was different than the 12:08am stream(as it should be) ...Not only that, I QUOTED it in my response and still misread it .... sorry ...

Need new glasses I suppose ....


I said "it" wasn't in your 1148p cap, and we were assigning differant meanings to "it".


yep, again, exacerbated somewhat by my misreading of your post ...


The actual PMT section packets for ket3 (see davea28's snapshots) were not in the stream because ket turns that stream of packets (pid 50 in your case) off. Hence the tsreader html output, in the PMT section for ket3, was essentially empty - there was no data to report on.


Yes, the same thing my TSreader HTML output shows. Because KET3,4, 5 and 6 SD are replaced with KET4 HD at 8pm~12am ...


.The interesting point in common between the 'old' (5/30) cap I posted and the ones above, is that tsreader DOES interpret the ket3 PMT section packets - shortly after the midnight HD->SD transition - but appears (at this point) to NOT do so for caps I take during the day or evenings prior to 8PM. Remember when I said "I could have sworn I'd seen that section of the report populated before" but could only find the one instance?

A mystery, one that caused some confusion ('it is missing in your caps'), but I also have to ask myself, 'could whatever is causing tsreader a problem also be the cause of splicer010 and my problem?' My gut says 'no', but...

Well, my reading skills caused THAT confusion regarding my TSreader HTML output files ...

But my gut is actually saying "maybe" to your last question ...

The PMT shuts down when the elementary streams drop. The PAT is also updated to reflect those changes BUT due to needing to re-insert the TSID information at each site we have to re-insert the PAT and TVCT locally. The added bonus to this is that the 1100 school sites stay locked onto the KET-ED feed while we're in HD else they would shift back to KET1 nightly and that would be very very bad.

Welcome to the world of no receiver standards....

I'm sure this is out there somewhere...Does anyone have a good mapping of TWC Cinci's QAM channels??

Thanks!

There will be no change on 9.2 for the reason you stated.

I live in Liberty Township (formerly Adelphia) and signed up for TWC in May, specifically for HD service, after a long period with Dish and DirecTV. I'm a long time Tivo user, but was willing to try the TWC HD DVR, but was told none were available and there was no estimate of when I could get one. After waiting a month, I bought a Tivo Series 3 HD DVR. I researched before I purchased it, and expected trouble getting the cable cards set up correctly and I wasn't disappointed! It's been almost 3 months, 5 visits, and more calls and emails than I can count, and I still can't get all the channels I subscribe to.

I subscribe to the broadcast, expanded and digital basic packages and the HD plus tier. I can only receive channels in the broadcast and expanded packages, plus all the local HD channels and Universal HD (972). None of the other HD plus channels (HDNet, HDNet Movies, ESPN HD and Mojo) or any of the digital basic channels (such as VH1 Classic and BBCA) will work.

The cable card screen in the Tivo shows both cards (Motorolas) are paired and enabled. The authorization field for both display a MISSING_PROGRAM_REKEY error. Per Tivo, this should say SUBSCRIBED.

It seems the "hits" to the cards don't contain the correct info for the channels I'm supposed to receive. I've had 2 supervisors come to my house and have worked with a third supervisor by email. All the card and host data has been verified many times as being correct in their system, but the hits they send don't change anything.

All of the TWC personnel who have been out have been nice and tried their best (especially Trish, a tech who has been out several times), but at this point, I don't know where else to turn. Does anybody have any ideas on how to solve this or a contact at TWC that I can escalate this to?

Thanks!

If anyone has been watching the CBS-HD game tonite. The audio drop outs are once again a problem with the CBS side and NOT the local affiliate WKRC-TV. Yes I am aware that other affiliate's may not have the problem. Just trying to inform everyone before the flood of messages begin. :)

Weasel

Kinda figured that out...Good game tho!

An update on my TWC service visit regarding washed out colors on certain analog channels:

A tech came out yesterday and spent an hour checking various things. He determined my signal strength was fine and agreed with what I showed him that there was a problem. He wanted ti rewire how I had a VCR connected but I told him, don't bother. That's not the isse. He checked the box outside my house, same problem and the box across the street--same problem. I told him it was likely at their main control. He said that another guy was coming out that afternoon to look into it further but he did not have to come inside my house. Well, the PQ was the same last night and I've heard nothing. So like I figured, no explanation, no solution. I'll have to call back and see "where my case stands". This guy was very nice but was 18-20 years old and really didn't know more than I did.

Some typical comments for the game last night regarding HD quality from CBS network affilates which are multicasting and ones which aren't can be found here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=896625

In any case, at some point Hopefully CBS and the affiliates involved will find a way to address this issue as well, so that everyone can get the highest possible quality HD pictures from CBS ....

A second TWC tech came knocking at my door today. Apparently the first tech didn't have the vocabulary to even report what the problem was. The report was "no color" on analog stations. No, it was more like the color was turned down from 90 to 30 on the remore control.

Anyway I showed it to this guy and he has no idea why it would change either. He stated that TW has no control over color saturations. I demonstrated for him like I did the first guy what the color was like 2 weeks ago and what it is now. He agreed there was a difference but it had nothing to do with cable.

Using my diplomacy skills I said "fine, I understand it's not on your end, but what could cause this to change so drastically so suddenly." At that point he said that didn't know and he would get back with me next week after doing some checking around with other techs and he backpedaled on his insistence that TW had nothing to do with it.

#1, I wanted them to be aware that something had changed and even if they couldn't do anything about it, I'd be curious as to what caused this change. I'll keep you posted...

I received the mailer everyone has been getting today about the new ESPN channels but something caught my eye. On ESPN2HD it has an asterix and under that it says 'not available on one-way cable cards' I know that with SDV it does not work with the current cable cards. So does anyone know if they're launching SDV on August 29th or if its already been implemented? I mean that's the only reason I can come up with on why people with cable cards couldn't get it.

I received the mailer everyone has been getting today about the new ESPN channels but something caught my eye. On ESPN2HD it has an asterix and under that it says 'not available on one-way cable cards' I know that with SDV it does not work with the current cable cards. So does anyone know if they're launching SDV on August 29th or if its already been implemented? I mean that's the only reason I can come up with on why people with cable cards couldn't get it.

This is true for Dayton as well. For those who have cablecards, we are getting screwed. All I can say is that we need to file complaints with the FCC. Congress and the he FCC have fought hard so that we can receive HD programming without the need for a set top box (via Section 629 of the Communications Act of 1996). TWC has ESPN2HD available to other cablecard users in the rest of its divisions so it really makes no sense to put it on SDV here.


Here is a link for filing a complaint with the FCC:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cib/fcc475.cfm

Crazy thought+this is probably a long shot, and along the lines of William's "no receiver standards" comment, I recognize this "method" may not work or be applicable at all for some receivers/sets ...

But wonder if Pughplover/splicer010 or anyone else experiencing the issue has ever tried doing this -- Wait until 8pm :

#1)> unhook cable from the RF(cable) input on your TV or receiver(stb) ..

#2) Run a channel scan (with cable unhooked) -- this should clear everything from it's "channel memory"...

#3). Now, tune *manually* to the QAM channels/MPEG2 program numbers(not TVCT or CVCT major/minor channel #'s) TW has the broadcast stations on in your area (such as 84.x for Pughplover for WCVN-DT/WLWT-DT program streams) ... And see what happens ...

--------------

I know that sounds strange, and you may not see anything "different" with your particular receiver but note the following :

On my Sony KD34XBR960 HDTV (internal ATSC and QAM receiver with cablecard slot as well), I can't test this with cable, but I note the following occurs with it OTA :

This is going to be difficult to explain with a great deal of "clarity", but I am going to simplify this as much as possible by discussing only WCVN-DT/KET, but the same thing happens for all the other DTV stations I receive as well :

First - Note that with this receiver, for a station to "show up" or be tuned to by it's TVCT "virtual channels", it *has* to be scanned in via a channel scan. *IF* and only if the stations signal is found via a channel scan, while you still can "tune to" it's "RF channel #/MPEG2program stream # involved and decode the program stream just fine, the RF/channel #/MPEG2 program stream number's it is *NOT* saved in channel memory when you manually "tune" to that channel after it being "in" the set's channel memory via an "channel scan" ... Evidently, It's looking at the TSID's or TVCT info for the stations or "channels" previously saved via the scan, and then won't save it for say, channel 24(for KET/WCVN-DT) with the VCT major channel # 54 info for WCVN-DT already "saved" ..

HOWEVER, if the TVCT(or TSID/etc) info for a particular station is *NOT* saved via an autoscan, manually tuning to a RF channel/MPEG program stream # for a station it "Finds" a signal for *does* save the info (for ALL of the program streams being sent by that station) in it's channel memory/channel list ...

For instance -- After a scan with antenna hooked up, WCVN-DT/KET shows up in "channel memory"on 54.x , and I can channel/up down through the KET1~6, or choose to "show or hide" the entire digital channel 54, or individual subchannels -- AND I can tune manually to 24.3~8 and everything will decode ... BUT, 24 (and the program stream info) *IS NOT* saved in it's "channel memory list" and can't be 'channel up/down button' surfed ...

HOWEVER, After doing a channel scan *without* the antenna hooked up to clear the channel memory, and *then* manually tuning to 24.x (doesn't matter what the "x" number is) -- channel 24 along with ALL of WCVN-DT/KET program streams(3~8) show up in the "channel list" and can be "surfed through" via channel up/down button(until a channel scan is run+that info is cleared/replaced with the WCVN-DT/KET info from TVCT) ....

NOTE: this particular set has a "show/hide" channels "feature" in it's menu which lets you "show or hide" either channels, or the specific "subchannels" from a digital station ... analog channels are "tuned to" by just inputing the RF channel number (such as 54), The "digital" tuner is "activated"+digital "channels" are recognized by punching in the channel number+ a "dot [.] and a number ... "analog" channels are shown in the list with just a channel #, digital channels are shown with a "-" before the channel number, and will allways have an additional "pop up box" that pops up with the individual program streams and a "show/hide" selection next to each one ... ALL "analog" channels allways show up on the list - ch 2-69 (for the antenna input) -- every channel 2-69, and you(or the autoscan) simply selects which channels you want to be able to "channel/up down" through ... Digital channels however, do *NOT* show up in the list until a signal near what is required for a signal lock is received on them, or in the case of an "autoscan" with antenna hooked up, also the TVCT channel numbers are shown ..

Now, I have no *idea* whether or not the TVCT info is actually being "utilized" or "looked at", when I use this "seemingly without PSIP method" for channel/program stream "tuning" but there's nothing that is apparent to the user that would seem to indicate it is ...

----------------------------------------------------

Although I recognize that the behavior plughplover or splicer010 are getting seems completely different. For instance I'm having no problem decoding anything or finding/tuning to any of the program services no matter "how" I do it - with PSIP or no, and have no problem with the set "saving" the appropraite channel info either in it's "channel memory" ) :

Still If you haven't tried this yet, *if* your particular receiver/set even allows you to do something like this(tune to channels on the appropriate frequency/channel #'s without using PSIP or doing a channel scan first), just an idea as something else to try, perhaps if for no other reason than to "see what happens" ....

Again, this may not help at all -- but I'm wondering if there might be a chance that your set/receiver in this case might behave somewhat similarly with its QAM demod as happens with this Sony set OTA, and if it may be possible some sort of "incorrect" info from TW(CVCT/TVCT or PAT/PMT info) received and saved via a "channel scan"(such as for channel 84 and the WLWT/KET streams) could be effectively "messing up"(for all of ch 84) what happens when KET3,5+6 are removed in "real time"(and don't come back until 12am), even though it is not "apparent" that Plughplover's set is using any PSIP info(saved or otherwise) for QAM channel or program stream selection, via autoscan or when he tunes to 84.x "manually" ...

If so, just thinking if you could perhaps "clear" that saved info from the receiver's memory+then try tuning to the channel 84 streams between 8pm and 12am, perhaps it's possible you might at least get something "different" ...

------------------

update: Do note that in the past when on occasion a station's stream would not decode because of invalid PSIP info being sent due to tech glitches "at the station" I *have* used this "w/o PSIP" method sucessfully in order to then decode the streams until they got it fixed ... It's been a long time however, as lately stations have been doing a really good job with their PSIP, or getting on it quickly when they do have an issue ...

I received the mailer everyone has been getting today about the new ESPN channels but something caught my eye. On ESPN2HD it has an asterix and under that it says 'not available on one-way cable cards' I know that with SDV it does not work with the current cable cards. So does anyone know if they're launching SDV on August 29th or if its already been implemented? I mean that's the only reason I can come up with on why people with cable cards couldn't get it.

I wonder if this affects cable STBs installed after July, which are supposed to use a cablecard. Or do those new units use two-way cable cards?

And I'm curious what is going to end up on analog channel 32 - where espn classic currently is (it's moving to digital)...

nitewatchman - I may give that a whirl at some point, but I am quite certain that my set only 'remembers' a single program number per rf channel from the scan.

I've got an idea on a way to capture the whole transition sequence that may let me see the various steps and changes with tsreader; will try it tonight...

I am quite certain that my set only 'remembers' a single program number per rf channel from the scan.


That certianly seems really odd to me, I've never seen or heard of anything like that before ...

However, It might, but I'm not sure if that matters in the context of what I was suggesting ... I just added an "update" to my last post, hopefully that update will make that "context" at least a little clearer ....


I've got an idea on a way to capture the whole transition sequence that may let me see the various steps and changes with tsreader; will try it tonight...

I took a TS capture(saved to disk) several nights ago from KET several nights ago during the transistion and looked at it a bit,including with a TS viewer(for the A/V) that lets you select which stream you want to view(by video stream PID) ...

Also used a little software utility (HDTVtoMPEG2) which lets you "strip out" one program stream+discard everything else(it does strip out the PSIP and renumber the PID's to be "program 1" for the output file for the program stream you choose). HDTVtoMPEG2 is free, and also lets you do some simple cuts(will "auto cut" out commercials from a 720p/1080i HD stream if the commericals are 4x3 as well.

I suppose since TSreader shows what "exists" at beginning of file where you start it(so you can't see the changes on the fly for the KET 8pm/12am changes if your capture "get"s those changes), you could "split" the captured TS into 3 different files, or as many as you need with the appropriate software (before KET5+6 are dropped, before KET3 is dropped, after KET4 goes to 720p/etc ... Suppose you'll just have to be very careful where you split the TS at, and how will you know you've got all the packets needed for the correct info for each output file ...

I have so many little MPEG2/"HTPC" related "utilities", I've tried or played around with, afraid at the momment I can't currently think of what might be best to use to try split the TS as precisely as you'll want to ..

Anyway, from what I did try, I didn't see anything unusual or that was a "problem" with the stream from KET (OTA) .... For instance, "stripping out" the individual program streams into seperate output files with HDTVtoMPEG2, and starting the cap around 19:58:30, the KET5+6 streams were 30 seconds long, KET3 was about a minute and a half, KET4 was 480i for about a minute and a half then switched to 720p and decoded fine in the viewer with Cyberlink Decoder ...

HBO-East is coming in on 119-33 on TWC Cincy.

I live in Liberty Township (formerly Adelphia) and signed up for TWC in May, specifically for HD service, after a long period with Dish and DirecTV. I'm a long time Tivo user, but was willing to try the TWC HD DVR, but was told none were available and there was no estimate of when I could get one. After waiting a month, I bought a Tivo Series 3 HD DVR. I researched before I purchased it, and expected trouble getting the cable cards set up correctly and I wasn't disappointed! It's been almost 3 months, 5 visits, and more calls and emails than I can count, and I still can't get all the channels I subscribe to.

I subscribe to the broadcast, expanded and digital basic packages and the HD plus tier. I can only receive channels in the broadcast and expanded packages, plus all the local HD channels and Universal HD (972). None of the other HD plus channels (HDNet, HDNet Movies, ESPN HD and Mojo) or any of the digital basic channels (such as VH1 Classic and BBCA) will work.

The cable card screen in the Tivo shows both cards (Motorolas) are paired and enabled. The authorization field for both display a MISSING_PROGRAM_REKEY error. Per Tivo, this should say SUBSCRIBED.

It seems the "hits" to the cards don't contain the correct info for the channels I'm supposed to receive. I've had 2 supervisors come to my house and have worked with a third supervisor by email. All the card and host data has been verified many times as being correct in their system, but the hits they send don't change anything.

All of the TWC personnel who have been out have been nice and tried their best (especially Trish, a tech who has been out several times), but at this point, I don't know where else to turn. Does anybody have any ideas on how to solve this or a contact at TWC that I can escalate this to?

Thanks!

Sounds like the only solution would be to go back to DBS:o

However, It might, but I'm not sure if that matters in the context of what I was suggesting ...


Or to say it another way ...

Regarding what is not "apparent" to the user but may be happening anyway ...

I don't think we know all of what is "really happening" during channel scan, or when you're tuning "manually" to the RF channels/program streams(or what happens concerning the latter after channel scan has been run vs an "empty" channel memory) .. ...

Is it looking for/saving any TSID info or reading or saving(but not necessarily using for the decoding) info from TVCT or CVCT for instance ?

When I said on my receivers I can use a couple of them "w/o PSIP" -- that's just what's apparent to me(the user), I have no way of knowing whether or not it's Looking at or using any of the info in the PSIP tables, such as from TVCT, as I suspect it very well *may* be, but I have *no* way of knowing ..


but I am quite certain that my set only 'remembers' a single program number per rf channel from the scan.


Almost forgot ... You said in earlier post that you receive Dayton just fine OTA, is that the way it behaves OTA for the Dayton stations which are multicasting? (5 programs from WPTD-
DT, 2 from WDTN-DT, WHIO-DT and WRGT-DT) ...

Presumably OTA it's with the PSIP info, including info from TVCT. Some receiver won't let the user "tune" to the actual RF channel/program stream #'s for instance. , But if there's a way to do it on your set, wonder if it would just save(as apparent to the user) RF channel+ ONE PS # for OTA as well?

If not, I wonder why it would be "different"? Maybe there are reasons why it needs to be different, I don't know ... The TS can have more payload "bits", The signal modulation is different, some of the frequencies used are different, and PSIP wise(if it's looking at PSIP data for cable at all) it might look for/look at CVCT for cable rather than TVCT ...

May be missing something, I'm just not coming up with anything that would seem obvious concerning why a manufactuer would use different "channel/program" selection implementation for OTA digital vs digital cable. What would need to be different would be the QAM vs 8VSB demod, perhaps in some cases being on seperate chips/seperate tuner cans/etc ....

HBO-East is coming in on 119-33 on TWC Cincy.

Not for me :-( Looks to be nothing at all on 113.

I thought maybe a freeview weekend but I tried both my HD-HomeRun and HannSpree Xv37 QAM tuners and no joy.

Crazy thought+this is probably a long shot, and along the lines of William's "no receiver standards" comment, I recognize this "method" may not work or be applicable at all for some receivers/sets ...

But wonder if Pughplover/splicer010 or anyone else experiencing the issue has ever tried doing this -- Wait until 8pm :

#1)> unhook cable from the RF(cable) input on your TV or receiver(stb) ..

#2) Run a channel scan (with cable unhooked) -- this should clear everything from it's "channel memory"...

#3). Now, tune *manually* to the QAM channels/MPEG2 program numbers(not TVCT or CVCT major/minor channel #'s) TW has the broadcast stations on in your area (such as 84.x for Pughplover for WCVN-DT/WLWT-DT program streams) ... And see what happens ...


Nothing...nadda...zip...OH! Except tomorrow that I now have to rescan then delete all scrambled etc... stations that is a pain in the rump...;)

awww, boo hoo ;)

Now you know+you won't have to do it again, well until TW changes their channel #'s around I suppose ...

Not for me :-( Looks to be nothing at all on 113.

I thought maybe a freeview weekend but I tried both my HD-HomeRun and HannSpree Xv37 QAM tuners and no joy.


I'm getting it here on 3 different tuners. All on 119-33. An LG TV, An LG DVD-R, & a Vizio TV.

119-33 Used to be "Color Bars". If you got that recently, then it should be on that same "Color Bars" Channel. (note: about 1 month ago Color Bars were on 89-33, I think, so it's not that one).

A friend of mine has a Sylvania set. He's getting HBO-East on 119.7

You typed 113, that is wrong.

I wonder what will happen once more and more folks hook "digital cable ready" sets up to cable+expect it to work the same as their old "analog cable ready" sets ...

More folks using Cableco supplied STB's or something else .....

mdp-130 capture software allows one to specify a segment size, such that a capture will be broken into multiple files. I specified a 5MB segment size (a bit over a second) and captured 84 through the ket4 transition. I then analyzed the individual segment files with tsreader and located the steps - ket5&6 dropped, ket3 dropped, ket4 switched - paying particular attention to the pid bandwidth chart.

tsreader exports of the relevant segments attached

update: an observation - you may note that _50.html has the pmt section populated for ket3; none of the preceding segments yeild this info. For the following segments it comes and goes - approx. cycle of 3 with then 3 without - up through _102. Of course the bandwidth chart says the pid 52 data is being sent up until ket3 is dropped.

awww, boo hoo ;)

Now you know+you won't have to do it again, well until TW changes their channel #'s around I suppose ...

Actually now YOU know it doesn't work...;) TW won't be changing the channels around for quite some time...My LG tuner is ATSC/QAM only...I use the TV's NTSC tuner for the rest...:D

You typed 113, that is wrong.

You sir are correct ! Dyslexia, I guess. The HD-HomeRun does find an unencrypted signal on 119-33 but my TV's tuner still does not (remapping issues ? I did not do channel rescan).

DOH !

Thanks

mdp-130 capture software allows one to specify a segment size, such that a capture will be broken into multiple files. I specified a 5MB segment size (a bit over a second) and captured 84 through the ket4 transition. I then analyzed the individual segment files with tsreader and located the steps - ket5&6 dropped, ket3 dropped, ket4 switched - paying particular attention to the pid bandwidth chart.

tsreader exports of the relevant segments attached

Ok, this one is going to get long, but I think you're going to be very interested in it ....

But first, If you want a really "short" version of it -- I don't think it's likely any of this(my attached files/etc), indicate any problem, other than with the "way" TSreader processes TSfiles ... I looked at your files, and after messing this paragraph up, during editing it, I decided this was long enough already and decided not to comment on them here, as I'm sure you saw the same thing I did in them, anyway ...

[further update] - Will say real quick though, As the update to your last post shows regrding the KET3 PMT info(and KET3 stream descriptions in PID usage area) in #50, but not earlier files/etc - That doesn't seem to make sense ...

-------------------------------------------

Now for the "long" version .... I know my grammar/spelling is not that great, but I type quite fast(faster than I can think) so in the interest of time, you might find quite a few errors in that regard ... Sorry, but it's not like I get a paycheck for this stuff - It's fun, but I want to keep it fun ... Sooo .. here goes :

First, I wish TSreader would put the STT info in the HTML export file, LOL ... Oh well ....

Ok, I gave a TS splitting utility a try using a ~2 minute capture from KET I took last Monday evening beginning at 7:58:33pm, the utilitiy is called (go figure) "TSSpliter" .... The jpg image included within the attached zip archive is a screenshot that should give you a very good idea of how it works, and as it turns out, it works very well!

I discovered a few answers(I think) regarding some of what we have seen, so first, I'll note some observations on that in part 1 of this post, and in part II, I'll provide detailed descriptions of the TSreader HTML output files provided in the zip file of this message .. some were from TS files from KET/WCVN-DT's OTA TS 4 seconds(10Mb) in length, and I further broke a few of most interest down into ~1 second(2.5MB) files.

--------------------

Part I - some observations of interest :

Do notice Its in there for KET1, but the resolution information (1280x720, 704x480/etc) for KET2~6 is not being "processed" in tsreader from the shorter, split files, but they're showing up in the non-split 1 min 51 second file ... So ~4 seconds isn't enough time for that from a TS file from disk ...

Also notice oddly enough, after the drop to SD/switch to HD on KET4 in the split files the detailed info on the streams doesn't show up in PMT section and its "unknown usage" for the KET4 video/audio PID's ... Soo, I captured a longer, 2 minute capture to disk at 11:21pm EDT Sat, KET4 in HD mode -- Reading it from the TSfile in tsreader, I get the same thing ... So, to make sure I wasn't losing my mind given what I had observed on this previously, I change the TSreader source to the "live" capture directly from the card(ATSC BDA source driver) and it only takes about 10 seconds to get that info so that all KET4 stream "descriptors"/etc. show up in the PMT section of the HTML file, and for instance pid 0x0061 is labeled "MPEG2 video for program 6" ... What's the difference, well, it's reading the stream in "real time" via the capture from the tuner card, reading even a 2 minute long TS file is done very quickly+completes within a few seconds, so I'm thinking the processing reading of the TS file is "keeping it" from looking as closely at everything as happens in real time ...

I don't know if you've noticed this or not, or if your getting this, but in the "status" bar of tsreader at bottom of window ONLY if KET is in "HD Mode" it seems to "hang" for quite a while with a message "Reading PMT for program 5 from PID 0x0050" - With my "live" captures, after several seconds it finally moves on, then hangs again at KET5+6 PMT PIDs and on one occasion I just checked it takes 47 seconds before it gets through to the video decode+displays the video.

The same is true from a TS file between 7:59pm and 8pm(when KET5/6 is dropped but 3 is still there) for "Reading PMT for program 7 from PID 0x0070, it get's "stuck" because KET5 PMT isn't there ..

But When KET is in 6 channel SD mode(from "live" capture or TSfile),It goes through them all(the PMT PIDS) really fast and doesn't hang up, with video decode within 10 seconds ...

So, earlier tonight from the 11:21pm 2 minute capture to disk TSreader never gets to "reading PMT for program 6" as it gets "stuck" on "Reading PMT for program 5 from PID x0050" and never gets past that before the processing of the file ends so it never gets to reading/processing the info required to "fill in" the PMT section of the HTML file or the PID "labels" in PID usage for the KET4 PID's, and therefore of course never gets to those for KET5 or 6 or the video decode "thumbnails" .. I didn't get a chance to take a longer capture when they were in "HD mode" to see how long a file I might need before if finally moved on ... But, It happens within seconds when ket is in 6 channel SD mode("live" capture or from TS file from disk), since the PMT is there for all of KET1~6 so it quickly moves through all of them and on to video decode/etc ...

so,, Tried splitting a "KET 6channel SD mode" capture I had taken earlier in week during the day into several different file sizes, and it takes about a 9~10 second file for TSreader to process/display everything, all the way through KET6 video decode ...

Another thing I noticed when it's reading it from a TS file from disk here : The EIT streams will show up immediately in PID list/PID usage list, but the TS file has to be something in the range of longer than 2 minutes, but less than 5 minutes before TSreader will show the EIT/TT table info in the tree list at left in the GUI, or show the programming guide info using the "view/view epg" function, or have the EIT info show up in a HTML export file. BUT, all that stuff happens within a few seconds with a "live" capture using my "tuner" card and it's BDA ATSC source drivers ... Note that is NOT specific to KET, it happens with all TS's I've tried+have available of different lengths captured from various broadcast DTV stations ...

[update: I expect we may experience different amounts of time intervals regarding some of the above at least partly due to differences in our PC's ... Different processors, bus speeds/etc ... I'm using a machine with AMD 4200+ X2 processor, 2GB ram, 250GB HD FWIW) ]

-------------------------------------------

PART II - 4 second(10MB) and 1 second(2.5MB) TS file captures/"splits" Index and description of attached TSreader HTML output files

note : I also include this section as a text file with word wrap on in the attached zip archive.

These are from Monday 8/20/07 - Each TS file was approx 4 seconds long(exactly 10MB each), I split the orignal 1min 51 second file into 26 10MB files and "found" the ones of interest during the KET "transistion" to include here.

Note : the times shown are the END times of each file from KET's STT table as shown in TSreader. I adjusted the hour from "00" to 19 or 20 (7 or 8pm) from UTC to local time instead of providing the offset also provided in STT, which is "STT: GPS/UTC offset: 14, STT: DS Status: 1 DS Day of Month: 0 DS Hour: 0

ketts7.htm - 19:58:59 - KET5/6 still there

ketts8.htm - 19:59:04 - KET 5/6 dropped

ketts20.htm - 19:59:55 - KET 5/6 still dropped no other change - note PID for KET3 and KET4 PMT still "fully described"/KET4 PMT info in PMT section still fully present ..

ketts21.htm - 20:00:00 - KET 3 dropped, and KET4 change to 720p during this capture -- Note the KET3 PID's still show up in screen(because KET3 drop hadn't fully happened at beginning of capture), but also note you don't get KET3/KET4 PMT info or those streams PID descriptions because TSreader is "hanging" on "Reading PMT for program 5 from PID 0x0050" while trying to read the KET3 PMT info that's not there, so it never "gets" to processing the KET4 info before it quits processing at end of file.

ketts22.htm - 20:00:04 - KET3 has already been droppped/KET4 at 720p(Note 12.12mb/s bandwidth usage) note you don't get KET3/KET4 PMT info or those streams PID descriptions because TSreader is "hanging" on "Reading PMT for program 5 from PID 0x0050" while trying to read the KET3 PMT info that's not there, so it never "gets" to processing the KET4 info before it quits processing at end of file.

----------------------------------------------

Also decided to split several of the above of interest into 4 smaller(shorter) files --- approx. 1 second each(some files may be longer than 1 second and some shorter than 1 second), these are exactly 2.5MB each. Again, the time info is for the END of the file from WCVN-DT's STT as shown in TSreader.

So, split the TS's for ketts7.htm, ketts8.htm, ketts21.htm, and ketts22.htm into 4 parts, the ones of interest being :

KET5/6 drop :

ts7-4.htm - 19:58:59 - KET5/6 still there - NOTE - The reason KET4,5+6 PMT info doesn't show up in PMT section, and the reason the 0x0055 KET3 secondary audio, 0x0061 KET 4 video/audio, and KET5/6 PID's are "labeled" with "unknown usage" is because the file was too short for TSreader to have time to fully process them, See the 4 second file ketts7.htm and you'll see all that info is present.

ts8-1.htm - 19:59:01 - KET5/6 dropped - NOTE: The REASON KET3, KET4,PMT info doesn't show up in PMT section, and the reason the KET3+4 PID's aren't "lableled" in the PID usage section is because the file was too short for TSreader to have time to process them. This is the first second of the 4 second long ketts8.htm file which has all that info.

KET 3 drop/KET4 switch to 720p :

ts21-1.htm - 19:59:57 - KET3 still there - NOTE : The reason KET3, KET4,PMT info doesn't show up in PMT section, and the reason the KET3+4 PID's aren't "labeled" in the PID usage section is probably partly because #1) the KET3 stream may have already begun to be dropped before end of this file, AND #2). along with #1 the file was too short for TSreader to have time to fully process them.

ts22-2.htm - 19:59:58 - Same as description above for file ts21-1 EXCEPT NOTE that PMT PID for KET 3 (ox0050) is Now GONE .... So, KET3 has probably begun to be "dropped" during this capture, even though the elementary streams are still showing up.

ts21-3.htm - 19:59:59 - KET3 Gone/KET4 switched to 720p - NOTE : The reason KET4 PMT info and doesn't show up in PMT section, and the reason the KET3 PID's aren't "labled" in the PID usage section is partly #1), because the file was too short for TSreader to have time to process them, and #2). because TSreader is "hanging" on "reading PMT for prgram 5 from PID 0x0050 while trying to read the KET3 PMT info that's not there, so it never "gets" to processing the KET4 info before it quits processing at end of file. NOTE: I suspect the KET4 switch to 720p has already happened, but it's not evident in KET4 video PID (0x0061) bandwidth usage yet ...

ts22-1.htm - 20:00:01 - Note bandwidth usage of 11.82Mb/s is a sure sign KET4 is 720p HD now ... NOTE: The reason KET4 PMT info and doesn't show up in PMT section, and the reason the KET3 PID's aren't "labled" in the PID usage section is partly #1), because the file was too short for TSreader to have time to process them, and #2). because TSreader is "hanging" on "reading PMT for prgram 5 from PID 0x0050 while trying to read the KET3 PMT info that's not there, so it never "gets" to processing the KET4 info before it quits processing at end of file.

Sounds like the only solution would be to go back to DBS:o
Since the Tivo Series 3 only works with cable, not DBS, this isn't an option.

Ok, this one is going to get long, but I think you're going to be very interested in it ....
WOW - you certainly took my idea and ran with it! :eek: :D

re: STT - good idea; fyi my _50 was at 00:01:04, _102 at 00:02:00

That is an interesting observation about the tsreader status line. It seems tsreader gets the pat and then processes the pmt pids sequentially, rather than filling in pmt data for the programs as it encounters them in the stream.

fyi - my observation about a 'cycle' was based upon sampling; I went back and processed all the segments in that range with the attached results. It still looks somewhat cyclic in nature to me, but not clearly so. I also keep thinking back to DaveA28's comment earlier that his dvbsnoop showed pid 52 packets every tenth of a second. In the gui bandwidth charts, pmt pid's seem to use about 15kbps. Not sure how to tie all these observations together...

I also did a cap during the HD->SD transition, and a few more short ones over the following hour. It will take a while to go through all those short segments (tedious, isn't it?)... Perhaps they will reveal more about this pmt pid update / tsreader weirdness.

Coming back to my/splicer010 problem; I wonder if our chipsets are behaving like tsreader; ie it gets hung up looking for ket3 pmt when I tune to 84 during the ket4 HD mode so never completes initialization. But if that was (solely) the case, then I should NOT be able to tune to 84 during the 1 min window after pmt for ket5&6 go away; it would hang looking for those pmt packets. (And as those caps revealed, the pmt packets for ket5&6 DO stop, so my earlier hypothesis as to why I can tune during that window is wrong).

So there is some other factor. Which brings me back to:
The PMT shuts down when the elementary streams drop. The PAT is also updated to reflect those changes BUT due to needing to re-insert the TSID information at each site we have to re-insert the PAT and TVCT locally. The added bonus to this is that the 1100 school sites stay locked onto the KET-ED feed while we're in HD else they would shift back to KET1 nightly and that would be very very bad.

What is he doing that keeps them 'locked' to ket3? I can't see any difference between the ket5&6 drop and the ket3 drop in my latest caps. If (for example) ket3 dropped the ESs but continued the pmt packet stream, I can see how they might stay locked...

I think that the "ATSC Service Location" descriptor present in the OTA TVCT (but not TWC's CVCT) must play a role here as well. Since this descriptor also provides basic ES info, it in effect substitutes for the missing pmt info. But AGAIN, if that was the case the set should 'hang' during the 1 min window...

There is still a piece missing from this puzzle...

Finished going through the ket hd->sd segmented caps. Pretty much the same as the sd->hd except in reverse. Attached are html output showing the steps.

Not sure what to make of it, but the only caps where tsreader interpreted the ket3 pmt packets are in 'the window'. None of the ones immediately following ket5&6 coming back, nor the other caps I took over the following hour have that section of the report populated. As above, the text file shows - on a segment by segment basis - which ones had tsreader ket3 pmt info.

Plughplover,

Just a thought, FWIW .... I was thinking, perhaps we should think about taking some of this discussion to PM or email, as I don't know in the context of the purposes of this thread if many folks are interested in prolonged discussion of some of the detailed information we're going into ... Then again, don't want to "cut anyone off" from reading it who is following along or interested, either ....


fyi - my observation about a 'cycle' was based upon sampling; I went back and processed all the segments in that range with the attached results. It still looks somewhat cyclic in nature to me, but not clearly so. I also keep thinking back to DaveA28's comment earlier that his dvbsnoop showed pid 52 packets every tenth of a second. In the gui bandwidth charts, pmt pid's seem to use about 15kbps. Not sure how to tie all these observations together...


Not entirely sure exactly what you're saying here, but I think the following may be relevant :

From the document "ATSC A/53 Part 3 - Service Multiplex and Transport Subsystem Characteristics" Pg. 12 (note this document is available in the *.zip archive download at link to ATSC A/53 documents I provided in earlier post), Paragragh 2+3 From section 6.4.1 :


6.4.1 - Constraints on Main Services' Program Specific Information .....

.... The Transport Stream shall be constructed such that the time interval between the byte containing the last bit of the TS_program_map_section() containing television program information and successive occurrences of the same TS_program_map_section() shall be less than or equal to 400 milliseconds.

The program numbers are associated with the corresponding PMT_PIDs in the Program Association Table (PAT). The Transport Stream shall be constructed such that the time interval between the byte containing the last bit of the program_association_section() and successive occurrences of the program_association_section() shall be less than or equal to 100 milliseconds. However, when program_association_section()s, CA_section()s, and TS_program_map_section()s are approaching their maximum allowed sizes, the potential exists to exceed the 80,000 bps rate specified in ISO/IEC 13818-1 [3] Section 2.4.2.3. In cases where the table section sizes are such that the 100 millisecond repetition rate of the program_association_section() would cause the 80,000 bps maximum rate to be exceeded, the time interval between the byte containing the last bit of the program_association_section() may be increased but in no event shall exceed 140 milliseconds, so that under no circumstances the limit of 80,000 bps is exceeded......


By the way, The document quoted from above may especially be one you might want to download from ATSC site ... ... Do be careful though, as for instance the references in it to "PAT-E" or "PMT-E"/etc refers to a "different" PAT/PMT table used only for E-8VSB(enhanced 8VSB) packets -- E-8VSB, or E-VSB or Enahanced VSB as it is called is a recently added optional transmission mode(for 8VSB, the OTA signal modulation used for DTV in N america) that use higher order data coding - which allows a portion of the 19.39Mb/s payload to be allocated to datastreams using E-VSB, which allows for more robust transmission/reception ..(less susceptable to multipath issues/etc) ...

Also, I think documentation on MPEG2 standards --- ISO/IEC 13818-1 [3] documents -- might be useful for some of this as well ... I'm not sure if I have any of those on a DVD or CD somewhere, If I get time I'll have to browse around for them ...


It will take a while to go through all those short segments (tedious, isn't it?)...


Oh yeah ... Last night figured you might want to compare your QAM caps with the OTA "version", so figured if it had a chance of happening at all, I better go ahead and do it then :)


Coming back to my/splicer010 problem; I wonder if our chipsets are behaving like tsreader; ie it gets hung up looking for ket3 pmt when I tune to 84 during the ket4 HD mode so never completes initialization.


I was thinking that too, but possibly in a "receiver model specific" manner, not necessarily "solely" a chipset specific manner. For instance, a receiver with the same chipset having the problem but that implemented its 'channel tuning/selection "differently" than another receiver with the same chipset that might not have any problems with this at all ....

Also, For one thing, it's TSreader's "job" to dig up and analyze the Transport stream+tell us everything it can, not so much to decode+display the active audio/video on a TV .... But, Seems like there should be something along the lines of something in PAT that "says" to TSReader(or anything else that's looking for it) ""there's no problem, but this PMT section associated with this PID or the elementary streams associated with it are not currently available" ... [update] - But then again Why? If PMT and the Es's aren't there for it, seems to me that should be good enough for receiver's/decoders(and TSreader) to know they ain't there!

And also, I wonder ... KET has been doing this since early 2003, so why does this seem to be the first time we've heard any reports about a problem with it ?


But if that was (solely) the case, then I should NOT be able to tune to 84 during the 1 min window after pmt for ket5&6 go away; it would hang looking for those pmt packets. (And as those caps revealed, the pmt packets for ket5&6 DO stop, so my earlier hypothesis as to why I can tune during that window is wrong).


Yep, as you say if it is "Solely the case" ... But, if we disregard whatever else may be happening .... What if it's reading the PMT PID's sequentially BUT say It's NOT working like TSreader in regards to TSreader only doing "video decode" sequentially AFTER the reading of the PMT PID's+looking for the PMT streams referenced by the PMT PID in PAT ... In other words, NOT like TSreader where the video decode for the thumbnails does NOT happen until it gets through looking for all the streams for PMT PID's listed in PAT ....

In other words, unlike TSreader, Perhaps as soon as it "finds" PMT and the elementary streams, it might be able to start decoding them right away ...

If so, It might find/decode KET1~4 just fine when KET5+6 is dropped, and simply ignore the KET5+6 PMTs not being there, but might hang on KET3+ might not/tune decode 4 when KET3 is dropped ... In other words, it might be able to "ignore" KET5+6 with the PMT's missing since there's no KET7 to decode, but it can't get "past" KET3 in order to decode KET4 ....


What is he doing that keeps them 'locked' to ket3?


Well, one thing I can think of would be if they dropped the PAT+TVCT info on the "dropped" streams(KET3, 5,6), some(or many) receivers would likely shift to KET1 ...


If (for example) ket3 dropped the ESs but continued the pmt packet stream, I can see how they might stay locked...


I could be wrong, but again and if I'm reading William's most recent post correctly -- I don't think they can do that (drop the ES's but keep the PMT streams specific to the "dropped" streams) ...

For various reasons I do expect it may be bad news in one way or another for HD from KET(at least from KET4 the way it's done now) if it were ever the case they were to have to keep the KET3,5+6 streams up between 8pm and 12am ...

FWIW, My receivers(all of them) stay on KET3, or whereever(KET1~6) I have them tuned to, regardless of whether there is PMT or elementary streams there ... For KET3 that would be ch 54.3 via VCT, or 24.5 RF channel+program number *seemingly* w/o PSIP. - *Seemingly* regardless of whether or not the receiver is using PSIP info. And that includes if it's not in "channel memory" via a "scan" ... I say *seemingly* w/o PSIP, because again, I have no way of telling if they're *really* not reading any info from TVCT when I use a couple of receiver's I have(or have had, I no longer have the RCA DTC-100) that allow me to do so *seemingly* "w/o PSIP" -- if they are looking at info in TVCT, there is nothing that is apparent to me that tells me they are ...


There is still a piece missing from this puzzle...


Well, just for something to try to see if it helps or To see if it might tell you anything is why I brought up the idea to try "clearing" your channel memory on your set by unhooking the cable+scanning, then trying to tune "manually" to KET+WLWT on 84 between 8pm~12am and see what happens ... It *might* be different than tuning manually to 84.x AFTER a channel scan has been run, but then again it might not ;)

And, It might do something "different", including even though it didn't work for splicer010, EVEN if he has the exact same chipset as what's in your set ... These types of things can sometimes "work" differently than we expect ... You might not realize that if you've only used/owned *ONE* Set or STB with ATSC/QAM receiver in it, but when you've used 4 of 5 of them(including when say 1 or 2 have the same chipset ...), and see they *all* 5 of them do these things differently .....

On my Sony set(OTA) Since it doesn't do it "after a channel scan", when I tried it(even though I could tune to 24.3~8 and decode the streams just fine with the 54.x VCT info in "channel memory), for instance, I wouldn't have expected AFTER clearing that channel memory that 24.3~8 (KET1~6) to be automatically saved into channel memory the FIRST TIME I tuned manually to 24.3 (actually, oddly enough I tried it with 24.1 and that worked too even though of course 24.1 is "blank" as there is no program number 1 stream from KET!), but IT DID WORK ... I suspect it wouldn't save 24.x to it's channel memory after the channel scan(w antenna hooked up) because the TSID info was saved during the channel scan+therefore wouldn't "let me" add another channel for the same TSID, even though the TVCT #'s saved for user utilization of channel tuning(54.x) is different than the RF channel #/Program stream #(24.x) ...

It might not do anything different with your receiver, though, I have no way of knowing that, so of course it's entirely up to you regarding whether or not you want to try it to see given the issues involved with having to rescan with cable hooked up and delete channels/etc afterwards ....


I think that the "ATSC Service Location" descriptor present in the OTA TVCT (but not TWC's CVCT) must play a role here as well. Since this descriptor also provides basic ES info, it in effect substitutes for the missing pmt info.


There is this, from ATSC A65c (PSIP) document, I've bolded the portions of perhaps the most interest :


6. TUNING OPERATIONS AND TABLE ACCESS
..... For terrestrial broadcast, the existence of a service location descriptor in the TVCT is mandatory. The PID values needed for acquisition of audio and video elementary streams may be found in either a service_location_descriptor() within a TVCT, or in a TS_program_map_section(). The service_location_descriptor() has been included in PSIP to minimize the time required for changing and tuning to channels. However, PAT and PMT information is required to be present in the Transport Stream to provide MPEG-2 compliance. Access to data or other supplemental services may require access to the PAT or TS_program_map_section(). Cable systems may or may not carry the Service Location Descriptor, and the information contained therein will be found in the TS_program_map_section(). ........


I wonder what "However, PAT and PMT information is required to be present in the Transport Stream to provide MPEG-2 compliance." Means? ..... And, why isn't that mentioned elsewhere in ATSC docs, such as in the ATSC DTV standard "MPEG2 PSI constraints" section ? It does specify it for the E-PAT/E-PMT tables for E-VSB specifically, but not for the "standard" PAT/PMT info applicable in this case ...

If stations can't add+remove program services to reallocate bandwidth to other services without some receiver or cableco having some problems somewhere, I wonder how more "complex" stuff like "directed channel change" via PSIP would work out .....

Oh, BTW, think I provided a link to the A65 docuement in earlier post, there is some good info in there on on CVCT and CVCT vs. TVCT you might want to look at ...


But AGAIN, if that was the case the set should 'hang' during the 1 min window...


I dunno .. Might still be something else involved as well, but if everything in TW's Mux on 84 was "fair and a middlin' AND if you could get the info from VCT, perhaps including service location descriptor info for KET3,5+6 either "into" your channel memory, or "read" in real time when you tune to channel 84 manually --- Seems like to me it should do like my receivers/sets do ... They don't "hang", there is Blank screen on program streams(KET3, 5+6 or just 5+6 for that minute) that are not active(but you can still "tune" to them+get a blank screen), and you decode video/audio when you "tune" to the program streams that are active(KET1,2 and 4 + WLWT-DT's streams in your case) ...

Not sure what to make of it ...

Me either .... I looked at following link+at the command line options link contained within the TSreader readme, and was hoping maybe there was something that would log everything that would show up say, in the "status line" at bottom of window(but that might go by to fast for you to "see it"), but can't find anything ... Command line options are not supported in the lite version, but looks like there's nothing there like that anyway ...

http://www.coolstf.com/tsreader/readme.html

update: Oh, just a note -- I downloaded your latest attachments earlier, but the "views" count for the zip file still says zero, even though I've refreshed this page a couple of times ... Seen that happen before (maybe the info is not being refreshed from my temp internet files cache)-- So, one can't necessarily assume noone is downloading their files if it says "0" or a low number/etc ....

It might find/decode KET1~4 just fine when KET5+6 is dropped, and simply ignore the KET5+6 PMTs not being there, but might hang on KET3+ might not/tune decode 4 when KET3 is dropped ... In other words, it might be able to "ignore" KET5+6 with the PMT's missing since there's no KET7 to decode, but it can't get "past" KET3 in order to decode KET4 ....

Was thinking about the above, and tried a differant test this evening.

Tuned to 84-18 (ket6) waited for it to drop.
Went 'up' to 84-33 (wlwt-wx); decoded ok.
Went 'up' to 85-2, then back down to 84-33

Instead of getting 84-33, the set switched to 84-1; repeated attempts during the one minute window to get to 84-33 always 'fell back' to 84-1. In addition (this is too involved to explain) there was an indication on the display that it considered 84-33 to not be a valid selection. (For example, entering 84-99 would give this indicator.)

The pids for wlwt-wx 84-33 are 'above' ket5&6. After the drop, while the set still had info cached from before the transition, it could get to -33. When I retuned and it had to reinitialize, the set suddenly had trouble finding the higher numbered program stream.

You know, your quote above from A65c is thought provoking...

Plughplover,

To hopefully better illustrate/describe an example I tried to describe earlier ...

Tonight, just after 8pm, I unhooked antenna from Sony KD34XBR960's input and did a channel scan to clear the channel memory ....

Then, I hooked antenna back up, and about 8:10pm punched in "24.5" - KET3 RFchannel number/program # .... Of course, there's nothing "there" to decode on 24.5 however ....

Then, went into the user "channel list" menu and took the attached screenshot of the screen with digital camera(sorry about the quality) ... Note that I did not change anything in the "menu" from "hidden" to show, this happened "automatically" ... Notice 24.5(KET3) is still Highlighted from where I punched that # in on the remote(where the TV is still "tuned to", that's why there's a blank screen), and there is a "no signal" message .... all 6 (KET1~6) KET "subchannels" were recognized as "available" ....

Then, I got out of the menu, and channel up/down with the remote, and I can decode 24.3, 24.4 and 24.6 --- KET1, 3, 4(HD) video/audio perfectly .... KET3,5 and 6 (24.5, 24.7 and 24.8) are "there" as you might imagine, but are blank screen and it says "no signal" ...

Is it getting enough info from PAT to find KET3,5 and 6, or is it looking at TVCT for that info? I have no idea, but there's nothing that SHOWS me that it's looking at TVCT, and for instance, it's not remapping to the virtual major/minor channel number (54.x), nor does anything "on 54" but analog 54 show up in the list (all analog channels 2-69 show up in the channel list even after the channel memory is cleared, but digital channels aren't shown until a signal is found there, and are designated with a "-" after the channel # ) ...

I'm sure this is out there somewhere...Does anyone have a good mapping of TWC Cinci's QAM channels??

Thanks!

Here's the latest info I have. This changes from time to time.

ABC 86.31
CW 86.22
Fox 19.1 or 85.2
CBS 86.21
NBC 5.1

Enjoy...

Hi dnslammers try 105.1. What brand of TV do you have? I've searched on a few different brands & Discovery has been 10 channels lower than TNT everytime. I don't know why but different brands show the various QAM channels on different channel numbers. I guess they "map" the QAM channels differently.

- Bill

Bill,

thanks for the reply, I will try that tonight and let you know what happens. I have an Olevia 26T LCD.

Stephen

To hopefully better illustrate/describe an example I tried to describe earlier ...
What you describe is largely how my set operates with DTV *all* the time.

When a scan is done, only one Program Number is stored. When tuning up/down to a qam channel when the set has not visited that channel during the current power-on, the display initially shows this saved value. Then depending upon what Program Numbers it found during 'init' it may actually change. An example; I'm tuned to 85-2 (lowest program number on 85). I hit 'down'; if this the first time I've 'touched' 84 during this power-on, the OSD initially shows 84-1 (no picture decode, just the OSD), then OSD switches to 84-33 and picture is displayed (after the 'init' when it learned that the highest program number currently available on 84 is -33.)

Another example: The set has a sort of tuning 'completion menu'. That is, when you start entering a channel number, a menu pops up on the screen that shows matches for what you have entered so far. If the first item is what you want, simply hit 'enter'; if the second one is what you want hit down and enter. As you enter more, the list get smaller and more specific.

After I power the set up, and enter say 84 or 85, I only have ONE entry in the list - the single program number that it learned during the scan. However, if I have tuned to that channel previously during the current power-on, then I get a longer menu with the program numbers it learned/cached from the previous visit. This list is volatile; 'changes' will cause the list to change - for example, in the clear 'on demand' programming which comes and goes will result in program numbers appearing and disappearing from the list. And powering off the set clears all the dynamic / cached info.

Side note: this tuning menu is how it handles what I call 'channel number overload'. What with analog and digital signals, both OTA and via cable, I have several instances where a given channel number XX occurs. For example, '45' could mean analog OTA 45, OTA DTV remapped to 45, or analog cable channel 45 (which is 'VH1'). Thus when I enter '45' the menu allows me to disambiguate. The set then switches to the appropriate RF input, frequency, and demodulator mode (analog vs digital).

(I also personally _hate_ this channel number remapping stuff. I mean really, people adjust very quickly to 'broadcast channel XX' being on 'cable channel YY', is it really such a leap to adjust to '(digital) broadcast channel AA' is on some other OTA/cable channel?)

Another example: The set/remote has a favorites feature. You can in effect select an input/mode/channel combination, but you can NOT select a digital subchannel - you always get the single 'scanned' program number, and have to up/down or -nn after you get there to select a differant subchannel. (Annoying, but that's the way it is.)

Another example: Besides the channel scan, you can manually 'add' channels to each of the four groups (OTA analog, OTA digital, cable analog, cable digital). The other day some one mentioned HBO was in the clear on TWC. I went into 'CADTV' setup, indexed down to 119; after a moment it 'found' Program Number 6 - a scrambled channel. If I had hit 'add', that is what would have been stored for 119. Instead, I indexed down to 118 and back to 119, and this time it found the unencrypted Program number -33. I hit add. Now when I enter '119' the channel selection menu offers -33.

And no, you can't simply do this multiple times for a given channel. One, and only one 'program number' gets stored. In fact, I suspect this is mainly so it knows what 'mode' to use; -0 is analog, -N is digital.

Oh and let's say I enter a channel number NN (<69) that hasn't been programmed into _any_ of the four groups and hasn't been visited during the current power on. The 'channel selection menu' that pops up gives four choices
"TV NN-0"
"DTV NN-1"
"CATV NN-0"
"CADTV NN-1"

Whether intentional or accidental, the set is _designed_ to accomodate fluid/changing Program Numbers on the digital streams. Perhaps that is why it is so unhappy with a PAT listing PMT PIDs but no PMT packets; since it doesn't rely on saved/static info, it has to 'init' when tuned to a digital channel.

--------------------------------------

re: William Smith's comments and your reply - I get it now...

When they drop ket3,5,6 the 'normal' case would be for the entries in the PAT to disappear. However, "due to needing to re-insert the TSID information at each site we have to re-insert the PAT and TVCT locally." ie they are re-inserting a PAT that lists those PMT PIDs - in order to keep the receivers at the 1100 schools locked to ket3.

I don't want to step on any toes at this point, but I can't help but wonder if this is 'standards compliant'. I further can't help but wonder if the reason it seems to pretty much work is because of the TVCT "ATSC Service Location" descriptor. And I *further* wonder if TWC _not_ including this descriptor in the CVCT, in conjunction with what KET is doing, is why my/slicer010 have a problem with this qam feed.

I got a chuckle in reading your A65c quote above Cable systems may or may not carry the Service Location Descriptor, and the information contained therein will be found in the TS_program_map_section().

TWC is not carrying the descriptor, but the info can't be found in the pmt - because ket isn't sending it.

There is this, from ATSC A65c (PSIP) document
...
I wonder what "However, PAT and PMT information is required to be present in the Transport Stream to provide MPEG-2 compliance." Means? ..... And, why isn't that mentioned elsewhere in ATSC docs, such as in the ATSC DTV standard "MPEG2 PSI constraints" section ? It does specify it for the E-PAT/E-PMT tables for E-VSB specifically, but not for the "standard" PAT/PMT info applicable in this case ...

If stations can't add+remove program services to reallocate bandwidth to other services without some receiver or cableco having some problems somewhere, I wonder how more "complex" stuff like "directed channel change" via PSIP would work out .....

I'm sure they can add/drop Programs. That's not the issue. Can they do it the way KET is doing it?

Also, you've questioned whether they could send pmt for a program without the A/V ESs. I don't know, I'm not an authority, but referring to one of your earlier spec quotes:
7.4.3 MPEG-2 PSI
MPEG-2 Program Specific Information (PSI) provides data necessary to identify an MPEG-2 Program (i.e., the desired service) and to demultiplex (i.e., separate and extract) the Program and its Program Elements from the MPEG-2 single or multi-program Transport Stream service multiplex. The MPEG-2 Systems Standard currently defines five PSI tables: the Program Association Table (PAT), the Program Map Table (PMT),
...
Each program map section contains the mapping between an MPEG-2 Program and the Program Elements. that define the Program (this mapping is called a program definition). Specifically, a program definition establishes a mapping (establishing the relationship) between an MPEG-2 Program Number and the list of the PIDs that identify the individual Program Elements comprising the MPEG-2 Program. The PMT is defined as the complete collection of individual Program Definitions within the Transport Stream, with one TS_program_map_section per MPEG-2 Program.
...

However, even though an MPEG-2 Program is announced in a TS_program_map_section, there is no requirement in MPEG-2 that the individual Program Elements are currently present in the Transport Stream.

which to this semi-layman sounds like sending the pmt stream alone (without the 'program elements') is entirely legit. And the 'cost' of doing so appears to be (using the ket cap tsreader reports) about 15kbps, so it's not like it would detract from ket4 HD bandwidth.

Hmmm... How does one get an authoritative answer on something like this?

Is that where the a78_a "Transport Stream Verification" spec comes in?
Is there a reference tool that inspects a stream and says yea or nay?

From what I've gathered following your posts (plughplover & Nitewatchman) all this is talking about KET4...What does all this have to do with canceling out WLWT? I think I am understanding you guys about KET PID and so on. But why is that affecting WLWT?:confused:

P.S...Keep up the great detective work!:D

I went to Time Warner today and found out a few things.

1. ESPN2-HD will be available on the 29th of August.
2. They only give out the New 8300HDC HD DVR. They don't give out non HD DVR's anymore. Not sure what the features of the HDC instead of the HD at the end of the model are but I will let ya know.

Let's see if that info on ESPN2-HD is correct or not. Supposedly it is on the new lineup cards which are in the mail already. But it is NOT on the website yet that I could find.

Weasel

Tonite's Bengals game will in HD on WKRC. Yes it is a ESPN game, but will bought the rights to televise it. So watch WKRC instead of ESPN tonite..

:)

Weasel

Tonite's Bengals game will in HD on WKRC. Yes it is a ESPN game, but will bought the rights to televise it. So watch WKRC instead of ESPN tonite..

:)

Weasel

BEST news I've heard all day!!!:D

In all deference to your comment about the stream being "illegal", I can say that our stream has been sampled and tested by many different test labs since 2001-2002. No problems have been found with compliance with ATSC standards that I am aware of.

Now onto the PMT issue...

PMTs are not required unless the elementary streams are present. Right now I don't have an easy way to generate the PMTs without the elementary streams. The PMTs aren't static as they carry caption descriptor data which enables cable sets to decode closed captions.


Since no one at TW or any other cable company has ever contacted us about the PAT/PMT issue I have no additional data on which to go on.

The main point of contention is that without receiver standards, there is no way to predict or test how specific configurations will act on all receivers. Each manufacturer is free to interpret how they apply the ATSC standard and many have made assumptions that are in error.

If your receiver will work with the OTA signal, that's as far as I can go... if it doesn't work on cable I can't fix that.


The fact remains that many of the school receivers are LG and they do not report any problems with the OTA signal.

And yes I have two different full time TS analyzers on the system at all times. one here at the studio and another off-air of one of the transmitters.

I hate to double post but this is different topic.

The DCC (Directed Channel Change) is even worse because it loses the original channel the viewer is on. So you would be watching a show on Channel x, the station would send DCC and ( assuming the station passes PSIP) the receiver would switch away for a preset time ( like a half hour) and the viewer would have no way to switch back because if they did the system would throw them back to the re-directed channel. When the event timed out the receiver would be left on the re-directed channel and not switch back.. As far as I know no one uses it.. Image what that would do to the decoders located at the cable/DSS pickup points..


Back to the topic at hand,

Most stations that daypart are using either barker channels to fill the blanks or are using a specific virtual channel for HD only. ( blank during the day HD at night).

They also have only one transmitter to feed.. we have 16 so its a lot more complicated.

What you describe is largely how my set operates with DTV *all* the time.

When a scan is done, only one Program Number is stored.


As you can see from the screenshot I attached in earlier post, On that particular set of mine All the program #'s are stored when I use the *seemingly* "w/o PSIP" method with it. Again, is it getting the info it needs to store/use those from PAT or TVCT, I have no way of knowing which, but there is nothing that indicates to me it's from TVCT.

Nothing changes when KET adds/drops program streams, all the channels numbers for KET1~6 services are there "all the time", and I can tune to all of them, Just get a blank screen as expected when the KET3,5+6 streams are not active. Just like it works if I use the "normal" method (with the channel scan using the TVCT info) just different channel numbers - The virtual channel #'s. (and of course I also get the service ID's in the channel banner along with Program descriptions from EIT's.



I'm sure they can add/drop Programs. That's not the issue.


See my comments in previous posts and again below about WCET-DT and how they added/dropped programs(dropping TVCT and PAT info for the dropped streams) and the issues it caused for many receivers, and also perhaps for TWC.


Also, you've questioned whether they could send pmt for a program without the A/V ESs.


No, I didn't question it, I said I think the answer to that(because of the way KET has to do it) is probably no, and that's also how I read William's recent post about the PMT's dropping with the ES's ...


(I also personally _hate_ this channel number remapping stuff. I mean really, people adjust very quickly to 'broadcast channel XX' being on 'cable channel YY', is it really such a leap to adjust to '(digital) broadcast channel AA' is on some other OTA/cable channel?)


FCC requires broadcasters to remap their digital Major channel # to their current analog channel # via PSIP .... This rule doesn't "change" after analog shut off, so for instance, WLWT-DT will still show up on channel 5.x even though they will continue to actually broadcast on channel 35 .....


re: William Smith's comments and your reply - I get it now...


Well, not sure you quite "get it" just yet ...


When they drop ket3,5,6 the 'normal' case would be for the entries in the PAT to disappear.


And the TVCT entries ...but, I don't think there is a "normal" case -- However, regarding what you are suggesting would be "normal" == as I think I described on at least 2 occasions earlier :

Such as how WCET-DT USED to do it when they ran 1 program HD program service at night with 2 SD services, (remapped these were 48.1, 48.2,48.3), and 4 SD services during the day (remapped 48.2+48.3, 48.4,48.5) ... I think that's how they did it ... For during the day removing 48.1(and it's PAT/PMT and VCT) and adding 48.4 and 48.5(their and it's PAT/PMT and VCT), and Removing 48.4 and 48.5(and their PAT/PMT and VCT info) and adding 48.1(and it's PAT/PMT and VCT) at night ...

AND THIS IS KEY -- THE PROBLEM with how WCET-DT did it was, SOME receivers(probably many of them) work VERY differently than your set ... Such that if you ran a channel scan during the day you'd get 48.2, 48.3, 48.4, and 48.5 -- But at night, you'd NEVER see HD on 48.1 (and 48.4+48.5 would remain in channel memory even though it wasn't there) unless you rescanned .. Meaning, on those receivers, you'd have to rescan EVERY DAY during the day and every night in order to see everything from WCET ...

I have a receiver which behaved that way, and noticed the problem with it when they were doing that, it uses NXT2004 chipset, it's a Hisense DB-2010 box ...

With that particular receiver, the only way you can use it to watch any TV is via 'scanning" for channels, you can't "punch in" a channel number+get anything except for channels that have already been "scanned in" previously ... With it, you can either "autoscan" the entire frequency range, OR you can input a single RF channel number(such as to readjust antenna and add channels it didn't find in the autoscan) ....

AND as you may recall, you had mentioned in an earlier post TWC folks said they used to have folks reporting problems with WCET-DT similar to what you're getting on channel 84 ...


However, "due to needing to re-insert the TSID information at each site we have to re-insert the PAT and TVCT locally." ie they are re-inserting a PAT that lists those PMT PIDs - in order to keep the receivers at the 1100 schools locked to ket3.


Don't forget everyone else's receivers either ... See above concerning William's comments about the receiver's at KY school sites and my commments concerning how WCET-DT used to add/drop services and the issues involved if PAT+TVCT entires are dropped along with the PMT and the Es's ...


I got a chuckle in reading your A65c quote above Cable systems may or may not carry the Service Location Descriptor, and the information contained therein will be found in the TS_program_map_section().

TWC is not carrying the descriptor, but the info can't be found in the pmt - because ket isn't sending it.

Well, that did give ME a chuckle, but If I were you, I probably wouldn't think a "chuckle" would quite be my reaction ;)

In all deference to your comment about the stream being "illegal",


Just to clarify -- I didn't say that .... Only posted some of what it said in ATSC A65c PSIP document ... MPEG2 "compliance" is not the same thing as "ATSC compliance" of course, including for A65B (the current version of ATSC PSIP standard currently mandated by FCC for stations to use) ...

In fact, as I also posted earlier, I can find *nothing* in the ATSC documents that requires broadcasters to send PMTs for inactive program services ....


Now onto the PMT issue...

PMTs are not required unless the elementary streams are present.

Thanks for the definitive answer on that William ...


The main point of contention is that without receiver standards, there is no way to predict or test how specific configurations will act on all receivers. Each manufacturer is free to interpret how they apply the ATSC standard and many have made assumptions that are in error.


Excellent description of the issue .... I agree 100% with your points here, and I really think it's something "they" (FCC, CEA+manufacturers/ATSC/etc) should have gotten a handle on a long time ago ... But, even when there has been "talk" about receiver performance standards, at least what I've seen about it it's mostly been about stuff such as handling ghosts, not tuning/selection issues.

I should probably look up the A74 documents and see what it says in there, AFAIK though, that's only "recommended", and have no idea which(if any) manufacturers are following it ... Think I did read some of the "coupon" DTV converters to come are supposed to be designed per the ATSC A74 recommendations ....

re:
On ...DCC ..


As far as I know no one uses it..


Thank goodness ...


Image what that would do to the decoders located at the cable/DSS pickup points..


Yep, I imagine a mess .... that's kind of why I mentioned it ...

In all deference to your comment about the stream being "illegal", I can say that our stream has been sampled and tested by many different test labs since 2001-2002. No problems have been found with compliance with ATSC standards that I am aware of.
...
And yes I have two different full time TS analyzers on the system at all times. one here at the studio and another off-air of one of the transmitters.[/

As I said, I don't want to step on any toes, and I wondered how to get an authoritative answer. And I would guess those analyzers indicate whether there is any standards compliancy issues. Great! I can accept that.

I repeat - I am not, nor do I want, this to become adversarial.
I greatly appreciate your contribution to my investigation and this forum.

Now onto the PMT issue...

PMTs are not required unless the elementary streams are present. Right now I don't have an easy way to generate the PMTs without the elementary streams. The PMTs aren't static as they carry caption descriptor data which enables cable sets to decode closed captions.

But it appears the inverse is not true, correct? (ie pmt without ESs is 'ok')
And wouldn't ket3/5/6 pmt be 'static' during ket4 hd mode, as there is no program?

Since no one at TW or any other cable company has ever contacted us about the PAT/PMT issue I have no additional data on which to go on.
...
If your receiver will work with the OTA signal, that's as far as I can go... if it doesn't work on cable I can't fix that.

The fact remains that many of the school receivers are LG and they do not report any problems with the OTA signal.

As far as I/we can tell OTA is fine. And I take that as one of the clues.

How do I tie this together... I have a hypothesis.

It involves what you are doing pat/pmt-wise when you drop ket3/5/6, the (OTA mandatory) "ATSC Service Location" descriptor in the TVCT, the absence of this (cable optional) descriptor in TWC's CVCT, and the way some receivers react to these combinations.

If my hypothesis is correct, I see three possible solutions:

1) IF sending PMT without ESs is _also_ standards compliant, and IF doing so addresses both your needs (1100 schools, bandwidth, etc) and the needs of some qam receivers, then actually you ARE in a position to fix the problem for "us".

Unfortunately, the only way to find out for sure is to try it.

2) IF TWC were to copy/include the ATSC Service Location descriptor into their CVCT, and IF the receivers having a problem will actually USE this (cable optional) info, then TWC is in a position to fix this problem for "us".

Unfortunately, the only way to find out for sure is to try it.

3) IF I could contact appropriate engrs at LG, and IF I could lay out the problem scenario, and IF they could reproduce it, and IF they could develop a firmware update to fix it, then they could fix MY set, and perhaps some other people's receivers (though what that does for people with receivers from other manufacturers is their problem, I guess).

I feel 'good enough' about the research I've done and the tests and analysis we've done (A Big Thanks to you and everyone who has contributed) that I feel I am ready to sit down with TWC engr and lay it all out. Perhaps as a result of that, TWC *will* contact you and you/they can work it out.

And I, of course, (and perhaps others) will be happy to work with you/them to test any possible solutions...

HBO-East went back to Color Bars this morning on 119-33 on TWC in Cincy. At 5 PM Color Bars was still on. At 6 PM the channel was blank. So, TWC is changing things around right now. Maybe by tonight we'll be able to get WSTR-DT and/or ESPN2-HD somewhere on the QAM channels.

Well, that did give ME a chuckle, but If I were you, I probably wouldn't think a "chuckle" would quite be my reaction ;)
Oh, but it is just such a typical standards 'gotcha', you have to laugh.

Everyone is 'compliant' but the end result is it just don't work :rolleyes:

I can't count how many times I've run this type of 'standards' thing in my professional career. When I saw that line, and put it together with "cable operator carrying OTA streams", it just kind of jumps out at you. :D

LOL!

I'm sure this is out there somewhere...Does anyone have a good mapping of TWC Cinci's QAM channels??

Thanks!



Here's my list. I still don't know 19-2 & 48-1.

TWC Cincy QAM Channels 8-27-07

81-1 Time-Warner Promos
81-2 Time-Warner Promos
81-3 TBN (Trinity Broadcast Network)
81-4 Infomercials/Home Shopping
81-5 Shop At Home
81-6 EWTN (Religion)
81-7 T.V. Guide Channel

84-1 Remaps to 5-1 WLWT-DT
84-33 Remaps to 5-2 WLWT-WX
84-3 Remaps to 54-1 KET1
84-4 Remaps to 54-2 KET2
84-5 Remaps to 54-3 KET3 (Off Air 8PM to midnight)
84-6 Remaps to 54-4 KET4 (HD 8 PM to midnight)
84-17 Remaps to 54-5 KET5 (Off Air 8PM to midnight) KET5 is dedicated to the KY House
84-18 Remaps to 54-6 KET6 (Off Air 8PM to midnight) KET5 is dedicated to the KY Senate
85-2 Remaps to 19-1 WXIX-DT
85-? Remaps to 19-2 Tube
85-? Remaps to 48-1 CET-HD
85-8 CET-CrEaTe (Remaps to Ch. 0 on my Vizio set, & to Ch. 0-0 on my LG set)
85-9 CET-World (Same as Broadcast 48-2, my Vizio set doesn't get this channel).
86-21 Remaps to 12-1 WKRC-DT
86-22 Remaps to 12-2 WKRC-CW (Cin-CW)
86-31 Remaps to 9-1 WCPO-HD

101-15 ITV CET (Cable only channel)
101-16 ITV CET (Cable only channel) - my LG set gets no audio on this channel
101-27 Time-Warner Promos
105-11 Discovery HD Theater
105-12 Time-Warner Promos
111-12 Time-Warner Promos in Spanish
115-30 TNT-HD
118-1 NBA Season Pass Promo
119-33 Color Bars

I got some of these from other posts. I hope they're all correct.

I thought some of you might find this info of interest. I live in Beavrcreek and am fortunate enough to be able to receive the Bengals game on ESPNHD and be able to pull it in OTA on 12-1. I am using the Dish ViP622, comparing PQ, and it is no contest. The ESPN feed is much better than the OTA feed for 12-1. The ESPN feed is not all that impressive either but the difference is quiye noticeable. The 12-1 feed just looks very "soft". The upconvert from 720 to 1080 may have something to do with it?

I thought some of you might find this info of interest. I live in Beavrcreek and am fortunate enough to be able to receive the Bengals game on ESPNHD and be able to pull it in OTA on 12-1. I am using the Dish ViP622, comparing PQ, and it is no contest. The ESPN feed is much better than the OTA feed for 12-1. The ESPN feed is not all that impressive either but the difference is quiye noticeable. The 12-1 feed just looks very "soft". The upconvert from 720 to 1080 may have something to do with it?

Does 720p always look better than 1080i?

Does 720p always look better than 1080i?

Supposed to for sports. I like 1080i better though on my Toshiba 51" CRT RP:cool:.

Most people on the main AVS board here says CBS has the best football, better than both Fox and ESPN. CBS is 1080i and Fox and ESPN are 720p. Personally, I think it shows how bad the WKRC subchannel hurts the PQ.

I think that is a loaded question. My reaction would be no, 720 does not look better than 1080. I think it depends on many factors such as the rez of the broadcast, the native of your display device, the presence of a subchannel and what equipment such as tuner or STB you have. I would be uncomfortable making a blanket statment like that. I have seen some 720 broadcasts that look outstanding and some 1080 broadcasts that look the same, and both that have also looked awful.

My intent was not to start a 720 v. 1080 debate, but merely to relay observational information.

Not trying to start a debate here. But, with 1080i you'd get 540 lines of screen info. And with 720p you'd get 720 lines. I guess it is more involved than that though.

720p is 1280X720 lines refreshed 60 times/sec. 1080i is 1920X1080 refreshed every other line at 60 passes/second, meaning every line is refershed 30 times/second.

Please, someone correct me if I am wrong.

Anyone else annoyed by the crackling audio???

No crackling on ESPNHD on Dish Network.

Yeah, it pretty much sucks... wonder why they just didn't restransmit the 5.1 mix?

Edit: It is crackling OTA for 12-1 but not ESPNHD on Dish.

Not trying to start a debate here. But, with 1080i you'd get 540 lines of screen info. And with 720p you'd get 720 lines. I guess it is more involved than that though.

Here we go again...;)

540P & 1080i are completely different...If 1080i were 540P then it would be called 540P and no need to call it 1080i...

Yeah, it pretty much sucks... wonder why they just didn't restransmit the 5.1 mix?

Edit: It is crackling OTA for 12-1 but not ESPNHD on Dish.

Must be on channel 12's side of the transmission then because I had it on TW QAM...No crackling right now tho...Seems to come and go...

I have found this to be a pretty good read for the basics.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/what_is_ATSC.html

wkrc can not pass on dd5.1 - its only dd2.1

Is ESPN upmixing 2.1 to 5.1 for the broadcast?

Seems like crackling just stopped. 9:44pm. We'll see if that holds.

I had a much more indepth post, but the new spell checker sucks and deleted everything I wrote!

Basically, WKRC is receiving the ESPN from its provider(?), which comes in 720p and MPEG-2 most likely. Then it is sent through the control equipment and then to the encoder. At the encoder, it is changed to 1080i and muxed with CinCW. That is where the softness is most likely coming from, the 720p->1080i conversion. As an OTA only, I am quite happy to have it in HD! Thanks!

Sorry to hear WKRC-DT is losing its GM. With new ownership, hopefully some investment is made there, but I doubt the priviate equity group will do that. My guess, Local TV LLC buys the station. Local TV LLC is based in NKY and is run by the old Jacor CEO. Jacor owned WKRC before Unclear Channel.

We are aware and working on the crackling audio. Remember we do convert ASI to HDSDI and then then upconvert 720p to 1080i. All of this is different then our normal setup for CBS-HD so there could be something in this setup that is causing the audio to crackle. We CAN make it go away with a quick change to upconvert. So for tonite's game that will be solution. Until I can get a tech from Harris on the phone anyway.

But at least the audio levels are MUCH better then last year if any of you remember the ESPN-HD game from then, the audio during our commericals was very LOUD and the audio from ESPN was very LOW.

We live and learn and try to do our best to provide a quality product to our viewers, which includes us to. :)

Weasel

Weasel - Looks+sounds good here currently, thanks ... I dunno when it happened, but at some point, lost video(I think the decoder locked up as screen went blank - the audio remained) + I had to cylce power to it to get video decode back(audio was still up though) ... I did have EIA-708 captions turned on at the time, dunno if that had something to do with it ...

--------------------------------------------------------

During the first 2 hours of the broadcast they've discussed football for 3 minutes & Michael Vick for 117 minutes.

Most people on the main AVS board here says CBS has the best football, better than both Fox and ESPN. CBS is 1080i and Fox and ESPN are 720p. Personally, I think it shows how bad the WKRC subchannel hurts the PQ.

It sure does. You can really see it on tonight's Bengals game. I am getting ESPN-HD via satellite (DISH Network) and picking up WRKC-DT via the ATSC tuner in the satellite receiver (a ViP622). ESPN is far better than WKRC. I really don't understand why WKRC can't give their HD station the bandwidth that it needs for sports. Quite frankly I don't think the several hundred people (if that many) that watch the CW would notice the reduction in bandwidth.

Whenever possible this Bengals season I am going to watch them on any station that I can OTHER than WRKC.

Whoelse is getting sick and tired of hearing Michael Vick??? Geez, talk about the friggin game!!!

During the first 2 hours of the broadcast they've discussed football for 3 minutes & Michael Vick for 117 minutes.

How about it...:mad:

.... Only posted some of what it said in ATSC A65c PSIP document ... MPEG2 "compliance" is not the same thing as "ATSC compliance" of course, including for A65B (the current version of ATSC PSIP standard currently mandated by FCC for stations to use) ...

In fact, as I also posted earlier, I can find *nothing* in the ATSC documents that requires broadcasters to send PMTs for inactive program services ....


ALSO, should point out the portion of the portion of the paragraph I quoted from ATSC A65C document(provided again below) that says :

"However, PAT and PMT information is required to be present in the Transport Stream to provide MPEG-2 compliance."

Could (and probably should be) in the context of the quoted paragraph be read as *entirely* *only* reffering solely to Program services which at any given time have elememtary video+ audio streams ...


6. TUNING OPERATIONS AND TABLE ACCESS
..... For terrestrial broadcast, the existence of a service location descriptor in the TVCT is mandatory. The PID values needed for acquisition of audio and video elementary streams may be found in either a service_location_descriptor() within a TVCT, or in a TS_program_map_section(). The service_location_descriptor() has been included in PSIP to minimize the time required for changing and tuning to channels. [/B] However, PAT and PMT information is required to be present in the Transport Stream to provide MPEG-2 compliance. Access to data or other supplemental services may require access to the PAT or TS_program_map_section(). Cable systems may or may not carry the Service Location Descriptor, and the information contained therein will be found in the TS_program_map_section(). ........




which to this semi-layman sounds like sending the pmt stream alone (without the 'program elements') is entirely legit.


I read it that way, but In the context of portions of paragraph from that docuement you didn't quote(some of which I include again below, this time w/o the PAT info+most of what you did quote), I *also* interpeted it as meaning the PMT(which is MPEG2 PSI) can be *removed* along with ES's and that is *legit* as well ... which is actually why I posted that quote in the first place, many messages ago :


The PMT is defined as the complete collection of
individual Program Definitions within the Transport Stream, with one TS_program_map_section per MPEG-2 Program. The PMT is unique among the PSI tables in that its contents may be carried as part of different bit streams (i.e., within Transport Stream packets that have different PIDs). This simplifies the addition, deletion, or modification of the PSI for individual MPEG-2 programs, as each can be altered independently. This also simplifies the demultiplexing process as only relevant portions of the Transport Stream need to be parsed by the receiver.




As far as I/we can tell OTA is fine. And I take that as one of the clues.


A really big clue, I'd think .... Maybe might be helpful to also look at this from a little different, perhaps less "technically detailed" perspective ... For instance ....

The way I look at it, there shouldn't be anything different regarding the *capability* of the receivers to properly decode the streams of broadcasters signals carried via digital cable vs what the broadcaster sends digital OTA ...

Except for CVCT info from the cableco instead of or in addition to TVCT being sent by broadcaster, it seems to me there shouldn't be *anything* different regarding what the receiver needs to "get" to properly tune/select and decode streams OTA vs. cable, and from the perspective of what the broadcaster is *sending*, they shouldn't need to do anything "different" for cable receivers than what they need to do and are doing for OTA ...

So .... consider :

TW gets the KET feed OTA.

Everyone so far OTA (including MANY receivers at KY schools, and 5 receivers I have here, including 2 with LG chipsets in my case), and AFAIK for most receivers via cable as well, Works just fine with KET digital, 24/7 ...

So, it seems likely to me your problem is either with 1). Your receiver, or 2). What the cableco is doing, or some combination of those, NOT with what the broadcaster is doing ...


If my hypothesis is correct, I see three possible solutions:

1) IF sending PMT without ESs is _also_ standards compliant, and IF doing so addresses both your needs (1100 schools, bandwidth, etc) and the needs of some qam receivers, then actually you ARE in a position to fix the problem for "us".


Couple of comments ...

First, I should say I realize you are just trying to look at "all the possibilites", and I think that's a good way to go about it ..

Secondly --- You're going to have to trust me on this, and I *do* know this is true from previous experience : *IF* KET needs to get involved, AND/OR if there's something William can do to help -- Be assured that I think you would be hard pressed to find a harder working, more "DTV knowedgable" engineer on the planet .... I can't tell you how lucky we are to have him at KET, AND HERE along with the other broadcast engineers at other stations that monitor or particpate here ...

I did comment a bit on this earlier, but decided to pull it so I'll say it again ...

I would wonder if a difficulty involved for william regarding that(keeping KET3/5/6 PMTs up 8pm~12am) might involve *how* they replace SD KET3,4,5,6 streams with HD KET4 at 8 and replace KET4 HD with KET3,4,5,6 SD at 12am ....

Again, this might have changed, as the discussion mentioned below occured at least 2 years ago or more -- I have also commented on this before but this time in a little more detail : At one time in another thread here at AVSforum in which we were discussing resolution changes on a program service ---- Other engineers that post on AVSforum were basically commenting that the reason "noone" does that(at least at that time) is because it can cause some receivers(probably early model receivers) to "lock up" or cause other problems ...

Having seen that "noone" does that, I of course commented that KET does change resolutions on KET4, and on my receivers at least, I pretty much miss the change in the "blink of the eye", other than the change in resolution .. William then posted a short comment describing how they do it ... Again, I'm just going from memory here, but basically, I believe he had said how they do it is they "switch the Mux" so that the SD streams are replaced with the KET4 HD stream, and vice versa at 12 am ...

-------------------------------------------------

Sorry, missed commenting on the below earlier ...


Side note: this tuning menu is how it handles what I call 'channel number overload'. What with analog and digital signals, both OTA and via cable, I have several instances where a given channel number XX occurs. For example, '45' could mean analog OTA 45, OTA DTV remapped to 45, or analog cable channel 45 (which is 'VH1'). Thus when I enter '45' the menu allows me to disambiguate. The set then switches to the appropriate RF input, frequency, and demodulator mode (analog vs digital).


wow -- I guess it's "kinda cool" to have OTA+cable coming in from seperate inputs but integrated into the same channel ist ...

But still, I must admit wise that seems a bit cumbersome to me ... The way My sony's set up, the Cable(qam - clear or via cablecard or analog) and OTA(analog or digital) "channel lists" are "completely" seperate .... You press "cable" on the remote, to select the cable RF input(and the cable channels/lists) and "ANT" for OTA .... when you're on the cable input, a "C" is present in the OSD info before every channel number so you know you're on the cable input ..

I don't have cable, but I can(and have) test this by hook an antenna up to cable+get the analog OTA channels there as well(UHF just being on different channel numbers) -- Oddly enough, I *can* decode 8VSB OTA through that input as well BUT ONLY with stations transmitting on VHF channels(such as WCPO-DT) ... Which I found interesting that it can do either 8VSB or QAM on it's cable RF input ... Just not 8VSB apparently on OTA UHF ... Cable+OTA does share many of the same frequencies, but on UHF, the "physical" channel #'s are different ... I suspect that+TSID "issue"(channel #'s are in the TSID's) may have something to do with why it won't work for UHF digital OTA on it's cable input, but works on VHF ....

Anyway, It's just amazing the "different ways" manufactuers(for better or worse in some cases) implement these channel/program selection issues ....

We live and learn and try to do our best to provide a quality product to our viewers, which includes us to. :)

Weasel

Thanks for the information but I am VERY disappointed in what I am seeing from WKRC. Why don't you crank down the bandwidth on the CW during sports so we can get a better picture on WKRC-DT?

It sure does. You can really see it on tonight's Bengals game. I am getting ESPN-HD via satellite (DISH Network) and picking up WRKC-DT via the ATSC tuner in the satellite receiver (a ViP622). ESPN is far better than WKRC. I really don't understand why WKRC can't give their HD station the bandwidth that it needs for sports. Quite frankly I don't think the several hundred people (if that many) that watch the CW would notice the reduction in bandwidth..


Keep in mind that ESPN doesn't have a subchannel and thier budget is just a LITTLE bigger then WKRC's. But the bottom line is we have a sub-channel because of revenue. ESPN has revenue from selling it's product to cable and satellite providers, who in turn may or may not further compress the signal.

I think to the average HD viewer they are quite happy to have HD Bengals coverage on a local station in which they didn't/don't have to pay extra for a tier of HD channels they may rarely watch.

Whenever possible this Bengals season I am going to watch them on any station that I can OTHER than WRKC.

Good luck finding ANY local station that doesn't have a subchannel and you can enjoy your FULL bandwidth HD viewing. Once again you have to remember we are viewers too. I enjoy a nice looking game as well as the next guy, but I do realize the techincal issues involved and I watch the game and I enjoy it. Picking on the other stations in town or anywhere for that matter is a waste of my time since they have an obligation to carry the subchannels they have also. ESPN-HD game tonite is getting all but about 2.5mbits of bandwidth is alot compared to other times. Anything lower then that would cause the CW to become less watchable. And we do have an obligation to people to ensure the quality of both channels is of a watchable quality. Which currently tonite's game is VERY watchable in HD.

Weasel

I have found this to be a pretty good read for the basics.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/what_is_ATSC.html

And that's exactly right ... To say it another way ...

It's 1920x540 At 60 FIELDS per second ... 30 of those fields are odd numbered, 30 are even numbered ... each "set" of 2 even/odd fields are "combined" together to get the 1080i lines of vertical resolution ....

So the resoltuion is 1920x1080 pixels ... It's 30 FRAMES per second(fps) interlaced ...

I can't remember the exact minimum number the eye can detect as being "seperate frames", but for example your eye can't detect 24fps as being "seperate" frames rather than continous moving pictures ... Most film content is 24 fps ...

I am sure there is a definitive number but my recollection is that somewhere near 20 frames/sec the eye can start to detect frames as being "separate".

I can't remember the exact minimum number the eye can detect as being "seperate frames", but for example your eye can't detect 24fps as being "seperate" frames rather than continous moving pictures ... Most film content is 24 fps ...

Check out this website for a good definition of Frames per Second and the human eye.

http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_can_humans_see.htm

Weasel

I understand that there is a difference between fps and refresh rate. I could have a 85Hz refresh rate at 1 fps and if the image never changed it wouldn't look choppy. :) However, since our AC is 60Hz that kind of locks in most home display devices for television to that refresh rate, right? In this case, I think (and correct me if I am wrong) Nitewatchman and and I were considering the refersh rate and frame rate to be similar. When he made the reference to film, which had a physical shutter, the refresh rate and frame rate are the same. Therefore, we were postulating what the minimum frame rate the eye could detect without bring able to detect "chopiness" or "separate" frames. All this assumes, there is some movement present in the frames that could be detected by the eye.

^ Yep, that's pretty much what I was talking about, although I don't think the refresh rate wouldn't have to be similar, it could be much higher for instance, and in my experience with flight sims back in the days we didn't have the processing power we have now, you'd still see "stuttering video" if say, the frame rate was 12fps and the screen refresh rate was 85fps ...

Anyway, regarding what I was reffering to, the website weasel posted said 18fps ...

I recall having some in depth and interesting discussions on the issue in the late 90's with a WWII/Korea-era B29/B47 pilot who in the 60's~80's worked on developing Flight Sims for the military, and in the late 90's was involved in some Flight sim development work for PC's, when 3d graphics began to become a "hardware" reality for desktop PC's, gamers and PC flight sim enthusiasts ... High refresh rates on PC monitors are nice, but it won't stop say, a 15fps frame rate or less(especially less) from being very stuttery if your in "simulated flight" ....

anyway, From those discussions, I remembered it as being 17fps, but thought I might be remembering it wrong, that's why I didn't post an exact # ;)

Forgot to mention at some point between 10:30 and 11pm last night WKRC's stream locked up my receiver(Zenith HDV420, didn't have a chance to check the others with this) again. Audio continued, video wouldn't decode, couldn't change channel until I cycled power off/on ...


I think to the average HD viewer they are quite happy to have HD Bengals coverage on a local station in

which they didn't/don't have to pay extra for a tier of HD channels they may rarely watch.


I don't really know what an "average HD viewer" is, and didn't realize anyone else did either at this point .. I do know folks who don't "care" much about TV seem to easily notice when HD quality turns into a blurry, blocky mess for short periods ....

For instance, Does an "average" HD viewer really not notice when HD picture quality looks worse from some stations than the worst VHS recording you've ever seen during those short bandwidth demanding portions of programming that sometimes occur?

I really wish I was exaggerating, but it's quite apparent when the quality quickly changes from the resolvable detail one is accostomed to seeing with HD to something that looks as bad(or worse) as SD video can get, albeit usually for a VERY short period of time .... When that happens with SD digital video, it's not quite as startling and apparent(especially if you're used to it), but yeah, it still bothers me having spent most of my life watching analog SD video ....

In any case, I think we or they or whoever an "average HD viewer" is would be happier with something better than that, I know I would ....

I suspect(or at least Hope) at some point, if it hasn't happened already the same may turn out to be true at least to some extent for advertisers(network or local clients) as well .....


.............Good luck finding ANY local station that doesn't have a subchannel and you can enjoy your FULL bandwidth HD viewing .....


I must have good luck then ....

WBDT-DT Dayton does that with CW HD, currently. The video stream is allways 18 Mb/s. Does it allways need that much, well no. But sometimes it does, although it would be the case moreso with some of the CBS HD programming or HD sports than CW programming I've seen ....Not sure about WLEX-DT, Currently (NBC HD Lexington) but last I saw them they weren't multicasting ....

WSTR-DT Cincinnati also no multicasting, although as we've seen from other stations in the area sending 720p, an SD multicast service(or other use of bandwidth) should work fine with them with the 720p they send ... .... In fact it's running about 3~4Mb/s null packets(or whatever that may be) when I've looked lately .... Same thing with WKEF-DT ABC HD Dayton, currently ... WHAS-DT (ABC HD) Louisville is another one in the area that isn't multicasting, currently ...

As for CBS .... Unfortnetly I don't see them all the time(if I did I certianly wouldn't be watching WKRC or WHIO), WBNS-DT Columbus(CBS HD) is one that's nearby, except for during NCAA tourney some years, they've Never Multicast, not at least since I first saw them in 2001 ...

It's pretty much heaven from WBNS-DT at 18Mb/s+ during HD sports, fast pans or lots of action or crowd shots with lots of confetti during HD football, you know, similiar to WKRC-DT during the short periods w/o webhopper, local12 radar or CW subchannel ...

I'm not sure about WLKY-DT(CBS HD) Louisville, I think I had seen reports at least at some point in the past that said they were running CBS HD at "full bore", but I've never seen them as so far WBDT Dayton analog is co-channel and has allways been too strong ....

Picking on the other stations in town or anywhere for that matter is a waste of my time since they have an obligation to carry the subchannels they have also.


I don't think its about "picking on" anyone, at least I hope not. It certianly isn't for me. The way I see it, A few folks posted their observations and thoughts here last night regarding ESPN HD vs WKRC HD PQ, doesn't mean they're picking on anything. Some observations may not be entirely accurate, but again, They're calling it like they see it, that's all ... Obviously, examining HD PQ from providers, and comparing among them is a perfectly valid and reasonable subject for discussion here, just as it should be a valid and important concern for WKRC, CBS, ESPN or their advertisers or any station/provider for that matter ...

We know(or at least I think most of us do) we're not going to change a station's mind on this who is making $ via the multicast subchannel. Doesn't change the fact if looks like crap during bandwidth demanding portions of programming from one provider of the same HD programming, you may not like it but there is nothing wrong with pointing that out.

Expect many of us here are probably a little more interested in seeing, for instance CBS HD quality at the best quality it can be sent to us vs. being interested in CW SD programming(especially those of us who watch CW HD programming from WBDT) or how great the subchannel it is for say, WKRC's bottom line .....

As for "obligations to carry subchannels", I'm not aware of any commerical station which had any sort of obligation to carry any multicast services before they entered into an agreement with the provider of that programming ... For instance, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think WKRC had any such obligation to do so until they entered into an agreement with CW to do so ..... It was WKRC's "side"(CC/etc) decision to do that, a decision that was made AFTER they had very good oppurtinity to see the effects of multicasting or webhoppers/etc ...

So, yeah, it sucks that I paid for HD displays in part because, and expecting to get the best possible HD quality at all times from say, CBS OTA, but I can't get that from WKRC-DT or WHIO-DT currently ... Probably sucks even more because I *know* what it is supposed to look like, as I've seen it, including in the past from WKRC-DT and WHIO-DT (when they weren't multicasting, webhoppering or whatever else 'ing) ....

And YES, I know that there's nothing that "says" WKRC-DT or any other stations has to provide that level of HD quality pictures or for that matter any HD whatsoever regarding any requirements for DTV stations imposed by FCC/etc ...

Nevertheless, it still sucks, whether I"m an "average" HD viewer or something else entirely ... It sucks even more because even though it *is* sometimes difficult, I generally tend to support broadcasters efforts .... and I don't want to give them a "hard time", but then again, I can't lie about what I think about this sort of thing either ....


but I do realize the techincal issues involved


Unfortunetly, I don't think there are any techincal requirements(such as FCC rules) regarding minimum "picture quality" standards for HD for digital broadcast stations. If there were+they had been done "right", I think you would see less discussion about multicasting effects on HD PQ here.

There were however IMO a good set of recommendations which were developed regarding multicasting ... ATTC ran tests(albeit some may say quite subjective tests), and what the ATTC recommendations said were -- stations sending 1080i = *DO NOT multicast*, stations sending 720p -- 1 SD multicast service is fine ... that might be a little too "restrictive", especially given the improvements in encoder efficiency since those tests occured ...

But, Almost everything I've seen so far, (inlcuding with newer, more effiecent encoders) seems to agree with those recommendations .... The only exception so far I have seen has been that I must say I find KET's 2SD+1 HD quite acceptable as well ...

But at least the audio levels are MUCH better then last year if any of you remember the ESPN-HD game from then, the audio during our commericals was very LOUD and the audio from ESPN was very LOW.

We live and learn and try to do our best to provide a quality product to our viewers, which includes us to. :)

Weasel

First, thank you very much for the HD simulcast of the game. I dropped cable last year thinking it would be hard to survive without it but it turned out I really haven't missed it.

Just a few notes:

1. The audio levels were much better this year. Thanks! Audio level from ESPN was still noticeably lower than WKRC's audio (evident in local commercial breaks -- those without ESPNHD in the wings), still requiring volume adjustment on my part each time it happened, but it was no where near as bad as last year where you'd get blown out of your chair each time a local commercial aired!

2. For those complaining about the PQ on WKRC, I am generally in agreement with you for WKRC in normal HD (from CBS) situations. But, keep in mind that WKRC is getting the ESPN feed, which is 720p mpeg2, and then they must transcode to 1080i AND re-encode to mpeg2 again. Even with 50Mbps it would be impossible for WKRC's quality to match or exceed ESPN's, because they have to take what ESPN is sending out and then "do stuff" to it before we get it. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that, from a pure bitrate standpoint, WKRC is giving more bandwidth to the HD stream than ESPN is. I could be wrong, but for ESPN 720p I'd guess they are giving about 12-13Mbps, while WKRC's stat muxing I have seen them go as high as 14-15Mbps. Of course 1080i by nature requires more bandwidth than 720p, and that said, dropping the subchannel most likely would have improved the quality. So again, I'm not defending the subchannel (I too wish it were gone) but I do think it's important to point out that there are additional challenges in this simulcast situation that don't exist in WKRC's normal CBS HD operations.

The only exception so far I have seen has been that I must say I find KET's 2SD+1 HD quite acceptable as well ...

I agreed with everything you said (that I didn't quote). I also agree with what I quoted, but would note that KET's conversion from 1080i PBS HD feed to 720p results in a softer, less detailed picture. WCET has a clearer and more detailed picture at 1080i. The trade off is that you have to deal with the additional mpeg artifacting.

Good luck finding ANY local station that doesn't have a subchannel and you can enjoy your FULL bandwidth HD viewing. Once again you have to remember we are viewers too. I enjoy a nice looking game as well as the next guy, but I do realize the techincal issues involved and I watch the game and I enjoy it. Picking on the other stations in town or anywhere for that matter is a waste of my time since they have an obligation to carry the subchannels they have also. ESPN-HD game tonite is getting all but about 2.5mbits of bandwidth is alot compared to other times. Anything lower then that would cause the CW to become less watchable. And we do have an obligation to people to ensure the quality of both channels is of a watchable quality. Which currently tonite's game is VERY watchable in HD.

WHIO this summer has been bitstarving its subchannel during bandwidth intensive video, I'm not sure why WKRC couldn't. WHIO's weather channel (obviously not as important as CW) has very few moments where it gets some artifacts while golf (this is when I've noticed) is showing some bandwidth intensive stuff on it.

I'd be willing to bet that WHIO-DT looks noticably better this coming football season as well, due to the fact that they seem to have figured out how to starve the other subchannel.

On the PMT presence question (funny how the brain works after sleep) If the receiver can handle the KET feed after 19:59:00 ( when 5 and 6 are gone but 3 is still there and 4 is SD) then the issue is moot because the PAT is still showing 6 feeds at that time as well while the PMTs are gone. At 19:59:58 the command is sent to switch out the KET3 and KET4 SD encoders and add in the HD encoder thus removing the KET3 PMT.

So the only real change at 19:59:58 is the dropping of KET3 and resizing KET4. The PAT always shows 6 channels.

William

As an OTA-only viewer, I was happy to see the game last night on WKRC. I had to switch to their analog channel periodically due to adjacent channel interference from WRGT-DT, but at least I had something to watch. It was much cheaper than watching it at BW3's, or paying for cable/satellite. Thanks, WKRC!

From the sounds of the discussion I'm guessing that someday broadcasters may have to agree on one format. 720p or 1080i.

Who knows 5 years from now they may all use 1080p.

I had experienced the audio problems near the end of the first half too. I was watching it on cable QAM. In my kitchen I had it on on another set using an antenna, & I could still hear the audio clearly coming from the kitchen. So, contrary to what others have said, I thought the audio problem was a TWC issue.

On the PMT presence question (funny how the brain works after sleep) If the receiver can handle the KET feed after 19:59:00 ( when 5 and 6 are gone but 3 is still there and 4 is SD) then the issue is moot because the PAT is still showing 6 feeds at that time as well while the PMTs are gone. At 19:59:58 the command is sent to switch out the KET3 and KET4 SD encoders and add in the HD encoder thus removing the KET3 PMT.

So the only real change at 19:59:58 is the dropping of KET3 and resizing KET4. The PAT always shows 6 channels.

William

Perhaps in the volume of postings you missed this, but I recently discovered that my set DOES show a reaction to the ket5/6 drop. During that one minute window, I am able to tune to lower numbered programs/pids, but wlwt-wx (Program Number 33) disappears. I had repeatedly puzzled over why (if it was the pmt drop that was the issue) didn't I see any effect during that window. Then the discovery of tsreader behaviour (see below) made me think to check the one and only higher numbered program. The result sort of clinched it for me...

Also, in case you overlooked it, one day I sat on the phone with a TWC engr as we both monitored the 8PM transition. He was using a clear-qam capable Toshiba. He could get ket1/2, but his set refused to decode ket4 after 8pm. (unfortunately, I didn't think to have him check wlwt-wx as this took place before that discovery)

And there is the behaviour of tsreader observed by myself and nitewatchman, where it gets 'stuck' looking for pmt for dropped program (ket5 during 1 min window, ket3 after 8:00pm). There appears to be a difference here between live vs captured input, but Jeff said (if I recall correctly) it took 45 seconds to 'get past' ket3 with the live OTA signal after 8pm. (Which bears an interesting similarity to the behaviour of my AccessDTV card with the QAM feed after 8pm - it takes just over a minute for it to 'sync up' vs ~2 secs before).

Finally, there is the question as to 'if it is the pmt drop, why isn't the problem seen OTA?'. And that is where I believe the OTA mandatory, cable optional, "ATSC Service Location" descriptor comes into play (which isn't in TWCs CVCT) - and the 'amusing gotcha' Jeff and I were discussing...

Addendum:

Of the three hypothetical solutions I presented earlier, I'm guessing #2 (insert Service Location descriptor in CVCT) will be the simplest to get implimented. And I suspect it will address the issue for some receivers. But I also suspect it *won't* fix it for *my* set, because as far as I can tell my set ignores most (all?) psip data in qam mode. A bit of irony there, after all this effort...

From the sounds of the discussion I'm guessing that someday broadcasters may have to agree on one format. 720p or 1080i.
720p and 1080i are both already ATSC standard formats. There are pros and cons to both, and there is a reason that both exist. I don't think either is going away anytime soon.

Who knows 5 years from now they may all use 1080p.
Doubt it... there is not enough bandwidth in the ATSC standard to provide a quality 1080p picture. As is evident, it's difficult enough to provide a quality 1080i picture in the allotted bandwidth.

I had experienced the audio problems near the end of the first half too. I was watching it on cable QAM. In my kitchen I had it on on another set using an antenna, & I could still hear the audio clearly coming from the kitchen. So, contrary to what others have said, I thought the audio problem was a TWC issue.
The problem was not a TWC issue. As Weasel said, they fixed it with a switch to upconvert and then back to HD. I am OTA only and heard the audio crackling and loss of quality. The WKRC guys generally seemed to fix it when it happend pretty quickly.

Doubt it... there is not enough bandwidth in the ATSC standard to provide a quality 1080p picture. As is evident, it's difficult enough to provide a quality 1080i picture in the allotted bandwidth.

Not to mention every ATSC tuner ever built will have to be replaced or updated to be able to receive 1080p in most likely mpeg4 (or some newer) format to be received in the 19.7Mb/s of space.

Picking on the other stations in town or anywhere for that matter is a waste of my time since they have an obligation to carry the subchannels they have also.

I know that. I was just stating what I am seeing, WKRC's HD sports telecasts are not as great as you seem to think they are. And it just wasn't Monday's game which I realize was "an exception to the rule" because it was a ESPN game. Some of the (CBS) Sunday games you carried last season were just plain horrible; motion artifacts were very distracting in some games. I'm just concerned that we will have the same low quality this year.

Currently tonite's game is VERY watchable in HD.

Weasel

I never said it wasn't "watchable". It just wasn't as good as it could be. And the sound problem was very annoying. I know that there are technical limitations (the substation bandwidth). My real concern is the future. Is this season's HD telecasts going to be as poor as some of last season's?

And Weasel, I'm not picking on you or any of your Engineers. I know that you (and all the other engineers on this area) do the best you can with what you have to work with. I am an engineer myself (not in the boardcast industry) and, believe me, I know the limitations that occur because of decisions made by some "talking head". It is just that I am not entirely happy with the "product" that I am seeing from your station and some of the others in the area. I know that is not your fault but I am still going to point it out when I see it.

mlb - is that a change from what they were doing before? last year if I recall, their hd channel was the one that was bitstarved..

WHIO this summer has been bitstarving its subchannel during bandwidth intensive video, I'm not sure why WKRC couldn't. WHIO's weather channel (obviously not as important as CW) has very few moments where it gets some artifacts while golf (this is when I've noticed) is showing some bandwidth intensive stuff on it.

I'd be willing to bet that WHIO-DT looks noticably better this coming football season as well, due to the fact that they seem to have figured out how to starve the other subchannel.

WHIO this summer has been bitstarving its subchannel during bandwidth intensive video, I'm not sure why WKRC couldn't. WHIO's weather channel (obviously not as important as CW) has very few moments where it gets some artifacts while golf (this is when I've noticed) is showing some bandwidth intensive stuff on it.
Do you have data to back this up or is this just an observation. Not doubting you but would like to know for sure.

mlb - is that a change from what they were doing before? last year if I recall, their hd channel was the one that was bitstarved..
Last time I analyzed WHIO-DT, they seemed to have constant bitrates for 7-1 and 7-2. If I recall correctly they were giving 7-2 a half to full megabit more bandwidth than WLWT-DT gives 5-2 (WeatherPlus). WKRC-DT is using stat mux and I have seen 12-1 and 12-2 almost even around 8mbps each (when SD content is showing on 12-1) and have seen 12-1 go up to about 14-15mbps when needed. WLWT-DT 5-1 holds steady around 16+ Mbps.

So, unless WHIO has changed something, and I'd want to analyze them again to confirm, they weren't using stat mux last time I checked and so they would not be "starving" 7-2 WeatherNow to give extra bits to 7-1 HD.

Actually, let me clarify. I was thinking it was bitstarved, but now that I think about it WHIO-DT turned off the subchannel during the Masters and during other HD events this summer. I will be interested to see what they do during the football season.

I also believe they keep the bit rate very low for the subchannel.

Bill,

thanks for the reply, I will try that tonight and let you know what happens. I have an Olevia 26T LCD.

Stephen

You were correct. DiscoveryHD was 10 channels lower than TNT-HD.

TNTHD- 115.3
DiscHD- 105.3

thanks,
Stephen

Got another call from TWC this afternoon, from Paul B. (which surprised me as the last time I talked to him he was leaving their Network Operation Center for a new position - which I found out today was with the head-end group).

Y'all may recall when I reported that Jack U. and I sat on the phone while we both monitored an 8PM transition; his on-site Toshiba set wasn't able to get ket4. That was on the 8/22. I found out today in the phone call that that event triggerred some activity on TWC's part.

blbrodbeck - I found it to be an amazing coincidence that a few hours later you reported that you could suddenly get ket4 on your Vizio, but it now appears it was a direct result of their actions.

I also posted a cap from 8/23 AM here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11396519&postcount=7598) and breifly discussed the visible differences here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11399485&postcount=7601). I would speculate those were also a result of those actions.

FWIW, the main thing he mentioned was (keeping in mind this guy is new in that department, and this is 2nd/3rd hand) something about a "VMR" and retuning the bitrate/mux balance for ket4 HD mode.

nitewatchman you may get a kick out of this - He also asked me and 'the others' to rescan and see if those changes fixed / helped out. As it turns out, splicer010 (according to his earlier post) did so on the 25th with no effect. I'll do so shortly - to make them happy, though I'm sure I already know the results.

AND - I forget who asked about it but, I also passed on:
the CET-Create CVCT remapping to channel 0.0
the CET learning channel with 32K sample rate audio

And I told Paul B. I'd like an appointment to sit down with Mike B. and present 'my hypothesis'. He's going to call back tomorrow...

Just finished my rescan (ref above) and noticed...

I'm getting WSTR-DT on channel 113 Program Number 12

It's come and gone a couple times, but I'd guess that's where it'll end up.

He also asked me and 'the others' to rescan and see if those changes fixed / helped out. As it turns out, splicer010 (according to his earlier post) did so on the 25th with no effect. I'll do so shortly - to make them happy, though I'm sure I already know the results.

Now lets not forget we are on two different headends...with different equipment in each. I can assure you that the changes were not made to both. So you may be surprised by disconnecting your cable, rescanning (having no lock on any channel) and then reconnecting the cable and manually inputting the channel #'s...or you may not. ;)

blbrodbeck - I found it to be an amazing coincidence that a few hours later you reported that you could suddenly get ket4 on your Vizio, but it now appears it was a direct result of their actions.

AND - I forget who asked about it but, I also passed on:
the CET-Create CVCT remapping to channel 0.0
the CET learning channel with 32K sample rate audio

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I appreciate what your doing plughplover. It is making things better for all of us. I hope they'll fix the CET-Create & the 32K sample rate audio issues too.

The only other things I can only think of are minor issues that TWC may still have with their QAM channels. Here are 3 minor issues.
1) TWC puts out EPG or guide info on QAM for all of the local channels but 48-1.
2) They're sending out the wrong time with the Guide. It's still on Eastern Standard Time. This throws off the Guide info most of the time.
3) On my Vizio I can't get CET-World. But I can get it on 85-9 on my LG set & my LG DVD-R. (So this one may be just a Vizio problem).

Thanks again plughplover. It's nice being able to get the additional HD programming of KET4 Thanks to your efforts.

- Bill

blbrodbeck - I did NOT do another cap to re-check the CET-Create channel 0 thing (I didn't expect the call)

Is it still doing it?

I hope so, as I'd hate to lose credabilty with them at this stage...

I hope they'll fix the CET-Create

I for one have no issues with receiving WCET HD, Create or World...I have no issue receiving KET1,2,ED,ED,5 & 6 video but DO have an issue with the audio. I guess my biggest question about KET is why on earth is 5 & 6 even on the air when all it is, is KET logo with piano playing (these are the ONLY KET channels I get along with KET audio)??? Pointless waste of bandwidth I think.

As for plughplover getting WSTR lucky him. Not here I can't get it.

blbrodbeck - I did NOT do another cap to re-check the CET-Create channel 0 thing (I didn't expect the call)

Is it still doing it?

I hope so, as I'd hate to lose credabilty with them at this stage...

Yes, I just checked on the Vizio, & it's still at Ch. 0

I'm not getting anything yet at 113-12. All other local channels are on 84-86. I assumed that WSTR-DT would end up there too.

Now lets not forget we are on two different headends...with different equipment in each. I can assure you that the changes were not made to both.

Sorry, I forgot to mention - When I last talked to Jack U, he backed up a bit and said that the Adelphia 'head-end' may now actually be just 'a hub'. He wasn't sure how far along that work was, and he doesn't work in the 'head-end group' so he wasn't sure.

If/when I get together with Mike B I'm sure that will become clearer.

I check analogue cable ch. 32. When ESPN Classic is gone, that means they've implemented they're changes due by August 29th.

Attached is a twc 113 cap.

Only one stream in it (not shared with anything).

I asked for 'everything' except thumbnails in the report; this is what I got.

Perhaps this is just a test stream?

I'm now getting WSTR-DT on 113-12, Boomerang Cartoon Network on 91-66, & Color Bars now on 119-333 (instead of 119-33).

I'm guessing their permanent changes will be made between midnight & 8 A.M.

Boomerang Cartoon Network must have been a PPV in the clear. The cartoon ended & the screen went blank.

Chances are you caught a VOD stream.

Sorry, I forgot to mention - When I last talked to Jack U, he backed up a bit and said that the Adelphia 'head-end' may now actually be just 'a hub'. He wasn't sure how far along that work was, and he doesn't work in the 'head-end group' so he wasn't sure.

If/when I get together with Mike B I'm sure that will become clearer.

I'm on the Amelia head end, and its got a completely different channel lineup and channel assignment. I'm not sure what "just a hub" would mean.

A hub site or earth station as they used to be called is more or less a mini headend. This is where the TW system would tie into the Adelphia system.

When Adelphia did the rebuild a couple years ago they made sure to use the same equipment TW used, knowing full well that TW would posses the system one day...

Plughplover,

After stewing on it today/tonight a bit when I had a few minutes, and first trying to think of it from the perspective of "ok, lets assume your receiver would "work" OK for all the active ch 84 streams between 8pm and 12am if either 1). the PMT's remained active for KET3,5,6 from ~8pm to 12am so the service location descriptors for the streams would be present ... OR #2). The service location descriptors was carried by TW in a CVCT ....

At first, all I came up with was, *IF* this is the issue(and it seems to me we have a fair amount of evidence to suggest it might be), it could be either or both that would work ...(my best WAG is both, but again that's just a guess) ....

Then I thought, well, It surely would be nice if someone at LG could tell you *what* it would need to look at, or if either would work .... If you could get lucky enough to actually get hold of someone who would know, perhaps it might not be a bad idea to drop a suggestion to them that if possible, it might be better if the receiver could get all the info it needs for "inactive" program services from PAT, or in other words therefore not need to look at PMT or VCT info at all for a "blank" program service, only look there for the info on the streams if the service is active/etc ;) .... I know, I know but it doesn't hurt to try ...

Then, given we've been talking a lot about PMT, given that I was running out of ideas .... I thought about looking at "solely" the 'other' possiblity -- "Service location descriptor" being needed in CVCT or TVCT by your receiver, just as an "exercise" of sorts, just assuming for a minute it's a given the receiver is not/would not look to PMT for info on the elementary streams to get what it needs for proper program selection ...

Now, Before going any farther, I have to say I am confused concerning whether the info reported in your TSreader HTML output files listed under TVCT section is info coming from a TVCT(if so with some info stripped out from what KET is sending in their TVCT it seems) or CVCT generated solely by cableco ...

But, Assuming it's just "mislabled" in your files, and the reported info is "really" coming from CVCT ... I thought, well ok, maybe it's the service location descriptors for the ES's/etc descriptions in CVCT it's looking for, which would seem to make sense(except the part about the cableco is not "required" in the A65C specs to carry" it ... )

BUT then I thought --- from plughplover's TSreader HTML output files, the info(service location descriptiors) describing the Elementary streams and their PID's DO NOT appear to be in ?VCT even when KET3,5+6 ARE active and he can decode everything fine (unless I'm misunderstanding something - apologize if that's the case) .....

In which case, given what you seem to be experiencing, unless perhaps it's finding the info on the elementary streams and program #'s and service ID's(if it's even using those) somehow "because they're there"+via PAT, but NOT getting what it needs when the elementary streams AREN'T there :

It seems to me if the service location descriptior *is NOT* there anyway in ?VCT between 12am~8pm when the receiver is finding and decoding the streams just fine for KET1~6 and WLWT, that perhaps its even more likely that it's "wanting" the info from the service location descriptor in PMT's for KET3,5+6 between ~8pm-12am .....

Again, just a wild guess, but *maybe* that's a clue that if you did have the PMT's for KET3,5+6 between 8pm~12am, perhaps it would "work" ....

HOWEVER, I think though it's *just as likely* it would work with the proper info(including service location descriptor) in ?VCT(probably CVCT as William had posted previously) as well ...

Could be wrong, but that's the best I can come up with at this point....

Update: Almost forgot ... Also in my "stewing" on the issue today, the thought(just a thought) crossed my mind that given the way you've described how the various tuning+Menu (such as the "pop up" of sorts that allows you to choose if it's OTA or QAM/cable/etc if ch#'s are the same), it would seem to me that maybe the thing does really "want" and perhaps will work best with the CVCT info ....


----------


nitewatchman you may get a kick out of this - He also asked me and 'the others' to rescan and see if those changes fixed / helped out.


That often is good advice, depending upon how your receiver works ...Well, if they've fixed it so it works, anyway ..... It can be a bit of a PITA, though in some cases, including for OTA folks (luckily with my current equipment it's no big deal even though I get about 60 channels or so (analog+digital including the "subchannels) OTA ...The entire procedure Takes about 10 minutes ...


I know you know this(or at least I hope I made it clear enough), but of course what I was suggesting you might want to try involved rescanning with the cable UNHOOKED so to completely clear the channel memory, and then try tuning purely "manually" to the KET/WLWT streams past 8pm to make sure nothing from the channel memory is "getting in the way" so to speak ... My guess is you probably wouldn't see any difference, but you just never know with these things sometimes until you try it so you then know how it "works" if you do that ...

Of course, it's unlikely you'd want to actually use that method for your "normal" channel "inputting" procedure, since(if it worked) you'd have to manually input all the channel #'s/etc for the channels/etc you watch ....

why on earth is 5 & 6 even on the air when all it is, is KET logo with piano playing (these are the ONLY KET channels I get along with KET audio)???


KET5+6 are active with programming when KY General Assembly is in session(this happens most often during weekdays when you're probably not watching TV), and for various committe meetings .... Sort of a KY "C-span" ....

See here for more info : http://www.ket.org/dtv/channels.htm

Do remember that KET is state(or commonwealth if you like) owned operation, unlike our ohio PBS member stations, so what they do in some cases may be a little different in some ways ....

Just finished my rescan (ref above) and noticed...

I'm getting WSTR-DT on channel 113 Program Number 12


On the Amelia system, I'm now getting WSTR-DT on 121-12, with just the PAT, PMT, video and audio streams. No CVCT or EIT, so it won't be showing up on 64-1 yet.

BTW, CET World is still being sent with 0-0 in the CVCT and the station string is still PN- something. On my sony receiver, I can enter "0.0" and get CET world, but if I just enter "0", I get the NBA preview channel.

On the Amelia system, I'm now getting WSTR-DT on 121-12, with just the PAT, PMT, video and audio streams. No CVCT or EIT, so it won't be showing up on 64-1 yet.

BTW, CET World is still being sent with 0-0 in the CVCT and the station string is still PN- something. On my sony receiver, I can enter "0.0" and get CET world, but if I just enter "0", I get the NBA preview channel.

So we do get 121-12! :) I hadn't looked in awhile so have missed it. Did you just now notice it?

My LG receiver is a pain because it picks up EVERY QAM channel, scrambled or not, and there are sooooooooooo many subchannels it takes quite a bit of time to go thru and check each individual channel.

Also on my LG inputting '0' just leaves the last channel as it was...no change. I have SEVERAL NBA preview channels along with all the music channels (audio only) and all the scrambled channels & even 'NO SIGNAL' channels (much the same as I get @ 8PM on 105-1)...

I just did a full rescan and my LG finds 206 channels of which a handful are desireable to me...

Wednesday morning and ther new TW line-up. What a screw job. TNT and Discovery HD, are now subscription as well as ESPNHD 1 & 2. I have HD with TW and also pay for the extra level and have now lost the above 4 channels.

However I still get UHD, MOJO and the 2 HDNETs. But can no longer get TNTHD, Discovery HD or ESPN HD.

Well that sucks. I've lost Discovery-HD and TNT-HD.

Did a cap on 115, and the tnt-hd program stream is still there, but now has a Conditional Access descriptor.

The new channel line-up says:

"++ Requires an HD television and an HD receiver plus a subscription to Standard service."

I guess it has to one of *their* receivers.

Wednesday morning and ther new TW line-up. What a screw job. TNT and Discovery HD, are now subscription as well as ESPNHD 1 & 2. I have HD with TW and also pay for the extra level and have now lost the above 4 channels.

However I still get UHD, MOJO and the 2 HDNETs. But can no longer get TNTHD, Discovery HD or ESPN HD.

I noticed this also. Called TW and they said that they are in the process of "re-tooling" these channels and that they will not be subscription when they are done. I was told that it would take a couple of hours. I was also told a couple of hours when I called at 7:30 am.

The current clear QAM channel line-up (Amelia HE) as of 8-29-07 @ 10:00AM...

87-21 Music (Audio Only)
87-22 "
87-23 "
87-24 "
87-25 "
101-23 Sports On Demand MLB Extra Innings Schedule
101-791 "
104-11 Time Warner Services Preview Channel
104-779 "
105-1 WLWT
105-3 KET1 (No program audio)
105-4 KET2 " "
105-5 KET ED " "
105-6 KET ED " "
105-17 KET Logo
105-18 KET Logo
105-33 NBC WeatherPlus
109-2 WXIX
109-7 WCET HD
109-8 WCET Create
109-9 WCET World
109-28 The Tube
114-21 WKRC
114-22 The CW
114-31 WCPO
120-6 ESPN Spanish/Latin Edition
121-12 WSTR
127-11 ESPN Radio
127-12 "
127-13 "
127-14 "
127-15 "
127-16 "
127-779 "
127-780 "
127-781 "
127-782 "
127-783 "
127-784 "
128-1 Univesal HD (UHD)
129-1 NBA Pass Preview
129-769 "
131-21 Music (Audio Only)
131-22 "
131-23 "
131-24 "
131-25 "
131-26 "
131-27 "
131-28 "
131-29 "
131-30 "
131-31 "
131-32 "
131-33 "
131-34 "
131-35 "
131-36 "
131-37 "
131-38 "
131-39 "
131-40 "

I noticed this also. Called TW and they said that they are in the process of "re-tooling" these channels and that they will not be subscription when they are done. I was told that it would take a couple of hours. I was also told a couple of hours when I called at 7:30 am.
I now have all back on except ESPN2HD. It still says it is a subscription service. They announced this change a long time ago. Seems there was plenty of time to get ready for this mornings change over.

I am now receiving the left and right edges of ESPN2HD. THe center is blocked bt a screen that says it is subscription service

I now have all back on except ESPN2HD. It still says it is a subscription service. They announced this change a long time ago. Seems there was plenty of time to get ready for this mornings change over.



Same here. I'm hoping that they're not finished yet. I'm going to be pissed if there is an extra charge for ESPN2 HD.

Just called and apparently they are still working on it.

After stewing on it today/tonight a bit when I had a few minutes, and first trying to think of it from the perspective of "ok, lets assume your receiver would "work" OK for all the active ch 84 streams between 8pm and 12am if either 1). the PMT's remained active for KET3,5,6 from ~8pm to 12am so the service location descriptors for the streams would be present ... OR #2). The service location descriptors was carried by TW in a CVCT ....
As far as I'm aware there is no "ATSC Service Location" descriptor in the PMT. The PMT does, however, contain critical information about the ESs, for example stream type and PID. I don't know if that info is actually encoded the same way in both cases, but tsreader does not report them the same way - compare "Program Map Table(s)" vs "Terrestrial Virtual Channel Table" sections in the reports for your OTA caps. But they both can provide this critical information.

At first, all I came up with was, *IF* this is the issue(and it seems to me we have a fair amount of evidence to suggest it might be), it could be either or both that would work ...(my best WAG is both, but again that's just a guess) ....
If I may refer you to one of your own A65c quotes here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11442185&postcount=7699) it plainly indicates the answer is not only "yes", but it is 'yes' intentionally and by design.

Now, Before going any farther, I have to say I am confused concerning whether the info reported in your TSreader HTML output files listed under TVCT section is info coming from a TVCT(if so with some info stripped out from what KET is sending in their TVCT it seems) or CVCT generated solely by cableco ...
You are asking two differant questions here:
1) The report is mislabeled; the GUI, over in the left hand pane says "CVCT"
2) I don't know if TWC is generating the CVCT by themselves, or if it is taking the TVCT and massaging it.

I'm not going to quote/respond to the bulk of your post; suffice it to say your reasoning is similar to mine.

Again, just a wild guess, but *maybe* that's a clue that if you did have the PMT's for KET3,5+6 between 8pm~12am, perhaps it would "work" ....

HOWEVER, I think though it's *just as likely* it would work with the proper info (including service location descriptor) in ?VCT(probably CVCT as William had posted previously) as well ...

I differ with your second conclusion ("just as likely") because of the "gotcha" we chuckled about (in that same quote).

I come from a software development background, a significant portion of which has been on 'standards based' applications. With this in mind -

Suppose you are a chip designer / firmware writer.

Since no psip data of ANY type is required on cable, are you going to code/impliment a dependance on it?

Perhaps if your design allows you to easily re-use code from the OTA case, you might hook it in for the cable case, in the off chance it is there. Or perhaps you want a 'feature rich' model that will use any/all available data, so you invest the time and effort to process optional data.

Or you may simply code the cable case for the 'lowest common denominator', and completely ignore all the optional info.

Based upon observation of *my* set's behaviour, I'm pretty sure *my* set doesn't bother to look for the optional info. It doesn't remap qam channels (ignores cvct) doesn't do qam guide stuff (ignores eit/epg), etc. FCC may have mandated things for OTA, but cable is 'anything goes'. (Remember an earlier post I made about TWC channel 80? Digicipher 2 streams; MPEG audio streams. 524x480i video streams...)

That's why I said earlier, that if I do get TWC to insert the Service Location descriptor in their CVCT I suspect it will fix things for some receivers (for example splicer010?) but won't for *mine*. :(

wow - i think this is the most action the board has had in years.. good deal!

wow - i think this is the most action the board has had in years.. good deal!

Yes... I am starting to think we need a whole forum and not just a thread to keep all the topics straight!

I noticed this also. Called TW and they said that they are in the process of "re-tooling" these channels and that they will not be subscription when they are done. I was told that it would take a couple of hours. I was also told a couple of hours when I called at 7:30 am.

7:30 AM you were told 2 hours. It is now 5:30 PM and still no ESPN2-HD. In continues to come up a subscription service Looks like they weren't ready for the change over. At least they gave me back my TNT-HD and Discover-HD. Those were missing this morning.

Yes... I am starting to think we need a whole forum and not just a thread to keep all the topics straight!

No, we need one for plughplover and Nitewatchman :D

7:30 AM you were told 2 hours. It is now 5:30 PM and still no ESPN2-HD. In continues to come up a subscription service Looks like they weren't ready for the change over. At least they gave me back my TNT-HD and Discover-HD. Those were missing this morning.

I've been calling since that time with no resolution in sight.