tnt-hd and discovery-hd still 'conditional access' here

ie not available clear-qam

tnt-hd and discovery-hd still 'conditional access' here

ie not available clear-qam

Thanks for mentioning that. I hadn't noticed with all my other ramblings about TWC today.

It is nice to see this thread this active ... I'm probably going to be somewhat limited in time to particpate the next several weeks or more, so I probably won't have time for a lot of posts like this one, but I *do* hope some of this info is useful to plughplover in his endeavors ....

As far as I'm aware there is no "ATSC Service Location" descriptor in the PMT.


Yeah, I know, my mistake ... I edited those comments a couple of times, and supppse I should have either "seperated" my references to service location descriptor in VCT vs. stream description info in PMT, **OR*** left all references to either as something along the lines of "the info in PMT or VCT that describes the Es's" .. rather than specifiying "service location descriptor" for both which as you note in inaccurate and only "specifically" applies in VCT ...

IN any case, it seems you understood what I meant ....


If I may refer you to one of your own A65c quotes here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11442185&postcount=7699) it plainly indicates the answer is not only "yes", but it is 'yes' intentionally and by design.


I was reffering specifically to whether or not *your* particular receiver would work with either. As I said, I expect it's both, but I think its just a guess at this point because we do not know whether your receiver is following any sort of specific "guidelines". If it *were* following the info in A65c regarding digital cable receivers (much of which we haven't discussed) I think it would more likely be designed with "autoscanning features" and CVCT info in mind ... more on that later in this post ...

In other words, keep in mind That info in the quote does NOT necessarily describe the design of your receiver. There aren't required standards for manufactuers to follow regarding this type of thing.

Also, If you read more of that A65c document, you will also see that a cableco could send TVCT (no CVCT) INSTEAD of CVCT .... But, would your receiver work with it? It should, but I have no idea whether it would or not .... Can't imagine why it wouldn't, however ... Even the required PID memory addresses are the same(the table_id memory address is not, however) ...


You are asking two differant questions here:
1) The report is mislabeled; the GUI, over in the left hand pane says "CVCT"
2) I don't know if TWC is generating the CVCT by themselves, or if it is taking the TVCT and massaging it.


If I understand that correctly (regardless of "where" the info is coming from) then, you're saying that TW is ONLY sending a CVCT and not TVCT as well ? I know that seems like a strange question, especially in the context of the below since I know no local station is sending CVCT OTA ---- Still, just wondering if for whatever reasons it's possible TW could be sending both+ or "messing something up" if they are trying to send both ...

A couple of quotes regarding the above from ATSC A65C document :


5.2 Requirements for Cable
The rules governing the transport of PSIP tables for cable are:
• Requirement 6: The required tables for a cable system are: the STT,either the CVCT or the TVCT, and the MGT ...


Note it says *either* the CVCT or TVCT, not both, although it doesn't say both can't be carried ...

And, perhaps I'm "reading it wrong" but there is this(bolded section in particular) curiousity which *seems* to me to indicate a broadcaster *could* send both, and, through inferrence(devices using OTA use TVCT, devices using cable use CVCT), perhaps both perhaps *could* be carried on cable :

From A65C document, section 6.3.2 "Cable virtual channel table" :


The Cable Virtual Channel Table may be present in a terrestrial broadcast multiplex when a broadcaster has coordinated consistent channel labeling/numbering with all local cable operatorscarrying that multiplex, and different channel labeling and/or numbering between cable and terrestrial broadcast is desired. When both CVCT and TVCT are present in the multiplex, receiving devices are expected to use the TVCT to navigate services received via terrestrialbroadcast and the CVCT to navigate services received via cable.


Well, obviously if a receiver is being used that's receiving via cable when both the TVCT+CVCT is present in the "multiplex", they have to be talking about a signal sent via cable rather than OTA ...

Guess it's a moot issue since I know there are no stations in this area sending CVCT in their OTA MUX, just wondering given the apparent "mislabling" of the TSreader VCT info if TW could be sending "both", perhaps, possibly in an "incorrect" manner ...


I differ with your second conclusion ("just as likely") because of the "gotcha" we chuckled about (in that same quote).


I would point out earlier in your post you said "yes" it would "work with both" ....

I would submit that it *should work* fine with either method (such as w/o or with PSIP) ... Because if it doesn't you're probably likely to run into some problems one way or another even *if* everything is done properly by the Cableco+broadcaster, given(as you mention) all the "different stuff" you're going to be getting via "clear QAM" cable ...

Farther below, In the CONTEXT of Digital TV signals of broadcasters carried on cable, I'll go a little more into why I said it seems to me "just as likely" your receiver's designers would want it to 'work' with CVCT, such as perhaps with the service location descriptors, including providing additional on this from the A65c document ....


Since no psip data of ANY type is required on cable


Who said that? From ATSC A65C document , section "7. THE TRANSITION TO PSIP ON CABLE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ...." :


Federal regulations adopted by the FCC (47 CFR §76.640) require cable operators to include A/65 PSIP data including virtual channel tables and event information to describe services carried in-the-clear, when such PSIP data is made available to them from the content provider. This same section of the FCC rules states that System Information carried out-of-band must include a textual channel name for each channel carrying a scrambled service.


What does that "mean" exactly? Well, for one thing as it turns out it does *not* apply to cable systems with less than 750MHZ bandwidth (does TW Cincy have less than 750MHZ bandwidth ???) ...

what exactly does FCC 47 CFR $76.640 Say? See it here in Black and white :

http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2007/76/640/ ...

And here's the "PSIP relevant" portions of that section (I removed the "non-PSIP relevant" info from it)


(a) The requirements of this section shall apply to digital cable systems. For purposes of this section, digital cable systems shall be defined as a cable system with one or more channels utilizing QAM modulation for transporting programs and services from its headend to receiving devices. Cable systems that only pass through 8 VSB broadcast signals shall not be considered digital cable systems.

(1) Digital cable systems with an activated channel capacity of 750 MHz or greater shall comply with the following technical standards and requirements:

(iv) For each digital transport stream that includes one or more services carried in-the-clear, such transport stream shall include virtual channel data in-band in the form of ATSC A/65B: “ATSC Standard: Program and System
Information Protocol for Terrestrial Broadcast and Cable (Revision B)” (incorporated by reference, see Sec. 76.602), when available from the content provider. With respect to in-band transport:

(A) The data shall, at minimum, describe services carried within the transport stream carrying the PSIP data itself;

(B) PSIP data describing a twelve-hour time period shall be carried for each service in the transport stream. This twelve-hour period corresponds to delivery of the following event information tables: EIT–0, –1, –2 and –3;

(C) The format of event information data format shall conform to ATSC A/65B: “ATSC Standard: Program and System Information Protocol for Terrestrial Broadcast and Cable (Revision B)” (incorporated by reference, see Sec. 76.602);

(D) Each channel shall be identified by a one- or two-part channel number and a textual channel name; and

(E) The total bandwidth for PSIP data may be limited by the cable system to 80 kbps for a 27 Mbits multiplex and 115 kbps for a 38.8 Mbits multiplex.

(v) When service information tables are transmitted out-of-band for scrambled services:

(A) The data shall, at minimum, describe services carried within the transport stream carrying the PSIP data itself;

(B) A virtual channel table shall be provided via the extended channel interface from the POD module. Tables to be included shall conform to ANSI/SCTE 65 2002 (formerly DVS 234): “Service Information Delivered
Out-of-Band for Digital Cable Television” (incorporated by reference, see Sec. 76.602).

(C) Event information data when present shall conform to ANSI/SCTE 65 2002(formerly DVS 234): “Service Information Delivered Out-of-Band for Digital Cable Television” (incorporated by reference, see Sec. 76.602) (profiles 4 or higher).

(D) Each channel shall be identified by a one-or two-part channel number and a textual channel name; and

(E) The channel number identified with out-of-band signaling information data should match the channel identified with in-band PSIP data for all unscrambled in-the-clear services.


What also may be interesting is some of what it says elsewhere in A65C regarding cable's "requirements" to carry PSIP info ... *do* keep in mind that there is a lot more detailed info on Cable carriage of PSIP in the document than I can quote here as it would be *way too long*! As if this already isn't! Which is one reason why I would suggest you download+examine the entire document for yourself, in this case, including but not limited to for instance page 141~148 "ANNEX G: AN OVERVIEW OF PSIP FOR CABLE (INFORMATIVE)"

So,below I'm just posting one what I'll generally call two of the "summary" sections of some interest here :


1.1.2 Cable
The following PSIP data shall be included in all ATSC-compliant Transport Streams to be transmitted via cable:
• The Cable Virtual Channel Table (CVCT) defining, at a minimum, the virtual channel structure for the collection of MPEG-2 programs embedded in the Transport Stream in
which the CVCT is carried.
• The Master Guide Table (MGT) defining the type, packet identifiers, and versions for all of the other PSIP tables included in this Transport Stream except for the System TimeTable (STT).
• The Rating Region Table (RRT) defining the TV parental guideline system (rating information) referenced by any content advisory descriptor carried within the Transport
Stream, except the RRT corresponding to rating_region 0x01 (US + possessions).
• The System Time Table (STT), defining the current date and time of day.

.........................................................

5.2 Requirements for Cable
The rules governing the transport of PSIP tables for cable are:
• Requirement 6: The required tables for a cable system are: the STT,either the CVCT or the TVCT, and the MGT. For any region that makes use of the capability to change the RRT, that RRT shall be included in the TS if any content_advisory_descriptor in use refers to that region. An RRT defining the rating system for a given region shall be included in the TS if any content_advisory_descriptor in use refers to that region, unless that region has explicit standards that define the rating system and the meaning of the values in the content_advisory_descriptor.
• Requirement 7: The PSIP tables shall describe all of the digital channels multiplexed in the Transport Stream. For convenience, the tables may optionally include information
about analog channels as well as other digital channels available in different Transport Streams.


And there's also this From Annex G (info on PSIP via cable):



2. OVERVIEW
PSIP was designed, as much as possible, to be independent of the physical system used to deliver the MPEG-2 multiplex. Therefore, the System Time Table, Master Guide Table, Virtual Channel Table (VCT), and Event Information Tables and Extended Text Tables are generally applicable equally as well to cable as to terrestrial broadcast delivery methods. The differences can be summarized as follows:
• For cable, the Cable Virtual Channel Table (CVCT) provides the VCT function, while the Terrestrial Virtual Channel Table (TVCT) applies for terrestrial broadcast. The cable VCT includes two parameters not applicable to the terrestrial broadcast case, and the semantics of several parameters in the table are slightly different for cable as compared to the terrestrial broadcast case. The specifics are discussed in Section 3 of this Annex.
• While the standard requires delivery of the first four EITs (EIT-0-3) in the case of terrestrial broadcast, no such requirement exists for the cable. Inter-industry agreements and FCC regulations, however, have established certain practices with regard to the carriage of PSIP data when provided to the cable operator by the program provider,including terrestrial broadcast. Section 7 describes these regulations and agreements.


------------------------------------


Perhaps if your design allows you to easily re-use code from the OTA case, you might hook it in for the cable case, in the off chance it is there. Or perhaps you want a 'feature rich' model that will use any/all available data, so you invest the time and effort to process optional data.


See below Also From Annex G of ATSC A65c document :


5. USING PSIP ON CABLE
PSIP data carried on cable in-band is analogous to PSIP included in the terrestrial digital broadcast multiplex: a receiver can discover the structure of digital services carried on that multiplex by collecting the current VCT from it. A cable-ready digital TV can visit each digital signal on the cable, in sequence, and record from each a portion of the full cable VCT. This is exactly the same process a terrestrial digital broadcast receiver performs to build the terrestrial channel map.


NOTE: Farther below I'll also quote some other sections of A65C you should be very interested in for various reasons, Including "receiver design" implications ... Although AGAIN, I would really recommend you download the entire document and examine it carefully, yourself .. Maybe that way at least I won't have to include such long quotes in my posts either ;)


Based upon observation of *my* set's behaviour, I'm pretty sure *my* set doesn't bother to look for the optional info. It doesn't remap qam channels (ignores cvct) doesn't do qam guide stuff (ignores eit/epg), etc.


Probably. However, it seems possible to me that Maybe it isn't. Maybe If it can't get everything it needs from CVCT (presumably service location descriptors) perhaps it's also possible that it may be going into "non-PSIP mode" *JUST* because of that ....

If so, I suggest it's possible you may not quite be seeing the "true behavior" of your set in this regard, at all ... The way I read it, Especially Given that PSIP seems "integral" to how receivers(receiving Digital TV broadcast from Broadcasters via OTA OR cable) are "supposed" to work as is described in A65C document(including in various quotes I provide from it in this post) ... And yet, there is some, but you do not find a WHOLE lot of info in the ATSC specs about receivers(used with cable or OTA) channel tuning/program selection "implementations" regarding the MPEG2 PSI info (such as from PMT/PAT) ....

Let's consider for a moment that bbrodreck's vizio set seems to be mapping to the VCT major/minor channel numbers just fine ... And, let's consider for a moment that if I recall correctly, he was having problems with KET4 *UNTIL* the service_ID (service name as Tsreader calls it) began showing up in your TSreader output files in the VCT section, but of course the service location descriptors are still not there ...

Soo, *HIS* receiver may not need the service location descriptors to properly process CVCT and remap to the Virtual channel numbers(and instead need the service ID info), but your's *might* need it ... I agree that's a long shot, as why wouldn't the VC #'s and maybe service ID be enough like on Bbrodreck's set .... but I do try to look at all the possibilities ...


FCC may have mandated things for OTA, but cable is 'anything goes'. (Remember an earlier post I made about TWC channel 80? Digicipher 2 streams; MPEG audio streams. 524x480i video streams...)


It may be "anything goes" in practice at this time, but as far as the "rules" go for digital cable carriage of digital broadcast signals on it's not ... Regarding PSIP, it's required for cable systems 750MHZ bandwidth or greater .... See the info I provided farther above on FCC regulations for PSIP via cable ... IS TW Cincy required to carry PSIP regarding DTV signals from broadcasters? If it's equal to or greater than 750MHZ capacity they are ....

As already discussed, just to restate it --- I do agree with you that it seems quite likely your receiver would, or at least should "work" if the Es "stream descriptions" for KET3,5,6 were in PMT between 8pm~12am ...

It is really confusing info in the ATSC documents at times ... But, If I am "decipering" it correctly, it seems to be saying *if* the cableco is not carrying the ES stream descriptor info in CVCT, then that info *HAS* to be present in PMT .. BUT, the way I'm reading it(see the PSIP cable specific quotes from ATSC A65c document I provide farther below) It would be the cableco that would be responsible for that(if it's not already there in PMT), And of course William's comments on the matter also seem to indicate it is NOT KET who is *required* to make it that way if it is necessary ...


That's why I said earlier, that if I do get TWC to insert the Service Location descriptor in their CVCT I suspect it will fix things for some receivers (for example splicer010?) but won't for *mine*. :(

But again, earlier in your post you also said it would work with the BOTH(or either) the service location descriptor in CVCT, OR the stream "description info" in PMT .... LOL .... Don't worry, I was doing the same thing when "developing" my last post on this, which perhaps might be best described as "going around in circles chasing my tail" .....and that is probably why some of it may have not seemed very "clear" .... Easy to do with this sort of thing ...

--------------------------------

Some other interesting quotes from ATSC A65C (and A65B) documents and some thoughts ...

Along with some comments Here are some more quotes from ATSC A65C and ATSC A65B documents, which I think are very relevant to "reciever design" issues and channel/program selection issues. Do keep in mind currently the FCC rules for PSIP for OTA AND cable specify A65B - an earlier version of the standard ... FCC is deciding whether to update the requirements to A65c in their currently ongoing 3rd DTV review(they probably will and there is not a lot of differences in the two )-- They are "mostly" the same, HOWEVER, I did just find one "interesting" difference in the A65b+A65c documents ......

Regarding "service location" descriptor Lets look at this part of it from the section 6 "remultiplexing issues" from annex G of ATSC A65 and A65B especially closely ....


• The service_location_descriptors present in incoming Terrestrial Virtual Channel Tables may not be deleted, but in order to identify all the services in the Cable Virtual Channel Table for a new transport stream, they may need to be modified (if they are no longer accurate because of PID changes). The business and regulatory processes related to PID changes and this modification are outside the scope of this Standard.


Well, OK, so maybe it's specifying just that they can't be deleted from TVCT(which doesn't matter a whit if you're not getting TVCT and only getting the cableco's CVCT) ... but gee, it also says elsewhere it's not required to be carried by cable in CVCT ... what to make of that, I dunno ..

NOW --- BUT, What does it say in this same section in ATSC A65B document(the current required standard) ?


The service_location_descriptors present in incoming Terrestrial Virtual Channel Tables may be deleted, and if so should be reconstructed to identify all the services in the Cable Virtual Channel Table for a new transport stream. [/B]


Among other things, I think you might also gain a bit of understanding of the "issues" a software engineer on a team designing a receiver/set would need to be thinking about from some of the following quotes from the A65C document(again,A65b is "mostly" the same") .....

From section 5.1 of annex G "Terrsetrial Virual Channel Maps on Cable" -- most of this quote isn't applicable to your(and most digital cable) situation(8VSB via small cable systems/etc) -- But I think the part in bold should be regarding receiver design issues ..


5.1 Terrestrial Virtual Channel Maps on Cable
If a cable operator chooses to deploy digital cable boxes in a cable network, to properly support the cable terminals, that network will need to conform to the transmission and transport standards defined through the Society of Cable Telecommunications Engineers (SCTE). In some instances, however, a small cable operator may offer a cable service in which no cable boxes are required. That operator may wish to implement a low-cost headend where off-air terrestrial broadcasts are simply received and placed onto the cable, as is done with a community antenna scheme such as SMATV. In some cases, signals may be shifted in frequency before being placed on the cable (such as to move a UHF frequency down to the VHF range). In cases such as these, a receiver may encounter a Terrestrial Virtual Channel Table when it processes an 8-VSB signal Stream from the 75 Ω cable port on the receiver. Although the TS on such 8-VSB may not strictly conform to SCTE standards for digital cable, cable-ready receivers should nonetheless be designed to handle the case where a Terrestrial VCT is found where a Cable VCT is expected.


From Annex G, sections 5.2 "use of the Cable VCT" (CVCT), 5.3 "Service Location on Cable", and section 6. "remultiplexing issues" (I included all of these as there's some pertinent info in one section that relates to another -- such as how cable is supposed to handle TSID+the issues involved with remultiplexing) -- Note there is just WAY too much stuff of interest in here to bold the interesting parts, so I won't try that this time :



5.2 Use of the Cable VCT
Cable signals are transmitted in accordance with established frequency plans, so initially discovering the location of each digital or analog carrier is straightforward. PSIP data typically describes services carried on the same Transport Stream as the PSIP data itself (although it may describe other services on another TS). The channel_TSID value for these services is required to match the TSID value found in the PAT of the Transport Stream of the indicated service. Whenever PSIP data references a service carried on a different digital Transport Stream orreferences an NTSC analog service, the channel_TSID should be used to positively identify the target TS or analog service. The recommended approach involves use of a digital signal’s Transport Stream ID (TSID) and an analog NTSC signal’s Transmission Signal ID (analogTSID). The FCC has rules for the use of both the TSID and the analog TSID by each broadcast station operator in the US. Each station has two unique TSID values, one for analog and one for digital transmission. The digital TSID is defined by the MPEG-2 Systems specification, ISO/IEC 13818-1. Transport of the analog TSID is defined in CEA-608-C; it is simply a 16-bit signal identifier that is carried in an Extended Data Service (XDS) packet.

Upon initial setup by an installer or consumer, a receiver should perform an automatic scanof all frequencies where analog or digital signals may be found.23 The frequencies used for the scan correspond to standard frequency plans for off-air broadcast or cable, as appropriate. When a signal is found at a given frequency, the receiver should take note of the analog or digital TSID. Although not all analog signals are required to include TSIDs, all digital transport streams are required to carry the a TSID. The TSID for each TS referenced by a CVCT needs to be unique on that cable system for PSIP-based tuning to be effective. When asked to acquire a specific service, the receiver should use the frequency upon which it was last found and verify the TSID.

The data in the modulation field may be in error unless the cable system modifies it. The SCTE has standardized two modulation modes for cable television transmission of digital
television. The terrestrial broadcast PSIP shall indicate ATSC 8-VSB modulation for over-the air transmission of digital television. Any receiver that does not have access to an out-of-band data stream indicating the modulation modes of the various carriers on the network will need to be designed to acquire any of the modes that may be present. In the US, 64-QAM, 256-QAM, or 8-VSB modulation may be encountered.

23 It is strongly recommended that such a scan is done also when the receiver is in the “off” state to refresh VCT and program guide data.

5.3 Service Location on Cable
The service_location_descriptor() indicates the stream types, PID and language code for each member of the collection of program elements that comprise a virtual channel. As mentioned, one of the differences between the terrestrial and cable is that the service_location_descriptor() is not required in the Cable VCT, even though its use is mandatory for the Terrestrial VCT. The difference arises from the fact that cable operators may re-multiplex digital Transport Steams that are available to them, adding, deleting or moving services to create cable Transport Streams, and some services
may not have the information needed to facilitate creation of the service_location_descriptor(). Some cable system equipment does not have the capability to format the information into the service_location_descriptor() when the information is available. A motivation for re-multiplexing is that the data rate for information on cable is typically higher than that available from terrestrial broadcast transmissions, and a cable operator may wish to construct multiplexes that make fulluse of the channel capacity.

Therefore, when there is no service_location_descriptor(), the receiver or set-top box needs to learn the structure of each service via the TS_program_map_section() which contains essentially the same information as the service_location_descriptor(). ATSC (and SCTE) Standards require the presence and correct construction of the TS_program_map_section().

A typical cable receiver or set-top box may implement a scheme where the last-used PID values for audio and video streams are stored with each VCT record in the device’s memory. Initial acquisition of a virtual channel may be slower by as much as 400 milliseconds (the maximum interval between repetitions of the TS_program_map_section()) since the TS_program_map_section() will need to be processed to learn the PID values, but this delay can be avoided on subsequent acquisitions by making use of the stored values. In any case, one step in the acquisition process should always be to check the current TS_program_map_section() to verify that the PID values have not changed since the last acquisition of the service. If they have changed, the new values replace the old.

6. RE-MULTIPLEXING ISSUES
As mentioned, a cable operator may take incoming digital Transport Streams from various sources (terrestrial broadcast, satellite, or locally generated), add or delete services or elementary streams, and then re-combine them into output Transport Streams. If the incoming Transport Streams carry PSIP data, care must be taken to properly process this data in the re-multiplexer.

Specifically, the re-multiplexer needs to account for any MPEG or PSIP fields or variables that are scoped to be unique within the Transport Stream. Such fields include PID values, MPEG program_numbers, source_id tags that are in the range 0x0001 through 0x0FFF and event_id fields.

Other PSI and PSIP-related tasks that need to be performed include:
• Construct an output Virtual Channel Table represents the virtual channels that will be included in the resulting Transport Stream.
• Combine EIT and ETT data from the various sources and remove data for any deleted services. (Rules for deleting services are beyond the scope of this standard.)
• Construct the output Rating Region Table to include all regions that the cable operator is either required to support or chooses to support.
• Rebuild the Master Guide Table to represent the resulting PSIP tables.
• The service_location_descriptors present in incoming Terrestrial Virtual Channel Tables may not be deleted, but in order to identify all the services in the Cable Virtual Channel Table for a new transport stream, they may need to be modified (if they are no longer accurate because of PID changes). The business and regulatory processes related to PID changes and this modification are outside the scope of this Standard.
• Edit the MPEG-2 Program Map Table to accurately reflect the Transport Stream PID values for all elementary streams in each service.

The special case of remultiplexing without adding or dropping content in the source transport stream does not require PSIP modification, as long as other services being added during theremultiplexing do not have conflicting PID values and use TS_program_map_section()s that do notconflict with the source streams containing PSIP data. This mode may be particularly attractive when 64 QAM is used, as only the PAT would need to be updated by the multiplexer combining the elements.

A typical cable receiver or set-top box may implement a scheme where the last-used PID values for audio and video streams are stored with each VCT record in the device’s memory. Initial acquisition of a virtual channel may be slower by as much as 400 milliseconds (the maximum interval between repetitions of the TS_program_map_section()) since the TS_program_map_section() will need to be processed to learn the PID values, but this delay can be avoided on subsequent acquisitions by making use of the stored values. In any case, one step in the acquisition process should always be to check the current TS_program_map_section() to verify that the PID values have not changed since the last acquisition of the service. If they have changed, the new values replace the old.


And there is from the "core descriptors" section of the A65c document concerning the Service location descriptor (a couple of especially "interesting" parts I've bolded) ... I'm not sure what they mean by saying it shall not be present for any active channel, as in their semantics, "channel" would not seem to refer to "program service" (such as is often referred to here as a "subchannel") ...

Also note that it doesn't *say* the broadcaster is required to provide "for cable" "the info in the service location descriptior" in PMT, it only says "for cable" The info in the service location descriptior is carried in the PMT (you'll have to download the document to see the "syntax defined in Ref. [8] ...


6.9.5 Service Location Descriptor
This descriptor specifies the stream types, PID and language code for each elementary stream. An instance of this descriptor shall appear in the TVCT for each active channel. A service_location_descriptor() shall not be present for any inactive channel. When present, the service_location_descriptor() must be valid for the current event in the corresponding virtual channel.

Note that for cable, the information in the service_location_descriptor() is carried in the PMT with the syntax defined by Ref. [8].

The service_location_descriptor() shall indicate the same Elementary Stream data as the corresponding portion of the Program Map Table currently being transmitted. At minimum, the Service Location Descriptor shall include the video elementary stream (if one is present in the service), and all audio streams present in the service.


Also, there's this interesting tidbit, also from the "core descriptors" section. Again what do they mean by "inactive channel" -- Perhaps they are referring to program services(subchannels), or minor channel number ... : ....


6.9.9 Descriptors for Inactive Channels
The service_location_descriptor() shall not be present for inactive channels. Any other descriptors, if present, shall provide valid information about the inactive channel. The
extended_channel_name_descriptor(), for example, can be used to provide the long-form channel name of the inactive channel.


And this, if I haven't quoted it before, from The "tuning and table access section" - the same section my quote from this document came from in earlier posts of mine ...


The PMT should always be processed and monitored for changes because, in some instances, the structure of a service may exceed the capability of the service_location_descriptor() to describe it. One example is a service that includes multiple audio tracks for the same language (see Section 6.9.8). In this case, the TS_program_map_section() carries the textual name for each of the tracks to help in user selection.

No, we need one for plughplover and Nitewatchman :D

That's why I suggested at one point earlier we might want to take our "detailed" discussions to PM or email ... But, don't want to leave anyone "out" that wants to read about it, and Plughplover's "has the ball" on this one so I think that should be up to him concerning how he handles it ...

Obviously though, if someone responds to one of my posts here+I feel compelled to respond to it/it requires a response, the place to do that is here ...

Damn Jeff...How long did it take you to write/quote all of that??? ;)

As for the bandwidth TW has when we rebuilt the system some 8-9 years ago it was all balanced out to 750MHz...Since that time, if at all, it would only be increased since the system was built to 860MHz specs...

^ Not long to write it or quote it, but in between "actual work duties" ALL DAY LONG to THINK about it ...

So, sounds like TW cincy is required to send PSIP for broadcasters signals as is specified/detailed in the code of federal regulations/FCC regulations as I quoted in that "long post" (and in ATSC a65b specs for cable carriage of PSIP) ... 750MHZ capacity or more on the cable system then it's required ...

Edit : A correction -- Actually the rules say PSIP has to be carried if the cable system's *activated* channel capacity is 750MHZ OR greater ....

Edit : A correction -- Actually the rules say PSIP has to be carried if the cable system's *activated* channel capacity is 750MHZ OR greater ....

...and it is...;) Balancing out to 750MHz IS activating channel capacity at 750MHz...

To sum up that recent long post into something short for those that aren't interested in the details :

In the context of carriage of digital broadcast stations' signals on cable :

IT IS *JUST AS IMPORTANT* for receiver and software designers to properly implement PSIP support for QAM/digital cable for their digital cable reception products(inlcuding for "in the clear" reception, and especially for consumer owned/operated "digital cable ready" receivers) as it is for the MPEG2 PSI information, AND as it is for 8VSB/OTA ATSC receivers ...

IT IS ALSO just as important for cable companies to pass through the PSIP (and MPEG2 PSI) information properly(and/or modify it properly as necessary), REGARDLESS of whether or not they are required to pass through that PSIP info ... Just as it is important for them to remultiplex the broadcasters DTV streams properly ...

I have been experimenting the last few evenings and I have been getting repeated results so thought I would post now...

As long as I have my LG LST3510a tuned to channel 105-6 (which is KET4 as everyonne calls it) KET ED before 8PM, at 8PM when KET switches to their HD feed, I get 105-33 NBC WeatherPlus video but no audio...Now when I either manually or just using the channel up/down button on the remote, change channels, (staying in the 105 channel realm) and return to 105-6, I get both video and audio:eek:. Then when scanning the other KET channels (105-3 & 105-4) I aso get the video and audio on those channels as well!

Now here it starts to get interesting...Remaining on 105-1 (WLWT) after the KET4 switch to HD, I get both video and audio for WLWT untill WLWT switches to the national NBC feed at which time the video changes to...you guessed it...the WeatherPlus video (105-33) but no audio! Now when I manually input 105-1 (essentially reacquiring or refreshing the channel) I get both video and audio from the NBC feed...

Now when I scan back to 105-6 (KET 4 which is now KET HD) I get the video only no audio on any of the remaining KET channels...

Once I leave the 105 channel realm (IE...I input 109-7 WCET) I will get the channel I input as I normally would but cannot return to the 105 channel realm. I mean I can return but I get the 'NO SIGNAL' message on screen and have no video or audio on any of the 105 channels...

So somehow somewhere someting is getting missed or mixed up. I still think it is my receiver, however I also feel it is on the transmission end...Ultimately I believe it is on TW part and feel that if they (TW) would simply move KET to its on channel realm while leaving the WLWT/NBC transmission on the 105 Realm, the problems would instantly cease. Because it is some sort of collision that is happening with all the embedded info that just wont jive together within the same channel realm...The reason it doesn't happen with WXIX (109-2) and WCET (109-7) is most likely due to (as was pointed out by Nightwatchman) the fact that KET is a state run PBS station VS. WCET which is a privately run PBS station.

So IF TW would be so kind as to notify any schools in Ohio that they serve that may (or may not) use KET for classes (wouldn't affect KY schools since TWcinci isn't running any of those systems) and would test the channel change I am quite confident the problem would be eliminated.:D That would be the simplist legal method to put this issue to rest.

I believe that WCET is feeding TW via fiber not from their digital transmitter directly.

So somehow somewhere someting is getting missed or mixed up. I still think it is my receiver, however I also feel it is on the transmission end...

Ultimately I believe it is on TW part ...


From what we know so far, I suspect you are correct on all of the above ....


and feel that if they (TW) would simply move KET to its on channel realm
while leaving the WLWT/NBC transmission on the 105 Realm, the problems would instantly cease.


The problem with that is with QAM256 (what TW is using), they can fit ~38.8 Mb/s in each 6MHZ channel ... BUT broadcast digital stations can only fit 19.38Mb/s in a 8VSB ATSC channel .... so, if TW gave KET a "spot of it's own" they'd be wasting ~19 Mb/s of capacity (or 3MHZ to put it another way) ... If they used(if they could do this and all receivers would be OK with it) QAM64 for KET, then only ~19mb/s would "fit" in a 6MHZ channel, but they'd still be "wasting" 19Mb/s, as they could be using QAM 256 and multiplexing TWO transport streams from TWO digital broadcast stations ...


Because it is some sort of collision that is happening with all the embedded info that just wont jive together within the same channel realm...The reason it doesn't happen with WXIX (109-2) and WCET (109-7) is most likely due to (as was pointed out by Nightwatchman) the fact that KET is a state run PBS station VS. WCET which is a privately run PBS station.


Well, I think the problem involves KET dropping/adding streams for KET3,5+6 between 8pm~12am, evidenced by noone is reporting the issue with any other TW channels carrying broadcasdt DTV signals(which don't have services that drop or are added at certian times of day) .... that's not to say it's that KET is doing something "wrong" because they aren't as far as i know or can tell .... And That has nothing to do with who "owns" KET or WCET ... In fact, there were problems like this at one time with WCET when WCET was adding/dropping streams(but in a little different way than KET does) as well ... But, they aren't doing that now ...

My point regarding KET being "state owned" mostly involved their KET5/6 KY Gov't coverage. Although how they are funded, and what their "mission" is could also relate to what they do on their other program services ...

Not to say "non-state owned" PBS Member stations might not do something like that as well ... In fact, WPTD-DT Dayton and several other ohio PBS stations carry "the Ohio channel" and they do indeed have Ohio St gov't coverage on it at times (I thought WCET carried it to, but only available via cable -- don't know if that's still the case or not) ....

I believe that WCET is feeding TW via fiber not from their digital transmitter directly.

That's what's been reported here from TW sources ...

Do note WCET doesn't add/remove program services at different times of day however, at least not OTA ... They did at one time, but not for the last couple of years or so ... OTA whenever their transmitter is on air it is (and has been for the last 2 years or so If I recall correctly - edit/except it was create instead of world, and at one time it was 2 SD +1 HD, one of them was PBS Kids I don't remember what the other one was) :

48.1 - PBS HD channel (they do upconvert SD from PBS's NPS from 6pm~7:30pm However)

48.2 - CET World .

they could be using QAM 256 and multiplexing TWO transport streams from TWO digital broadcast stations

Which from what I can gather is the whole problem...Nothing has to be "wasted". There is ample material that could be moved around to use that "wasted" bandwidth. But I doubt seriously that they are concerned with "wasting bandwidth" due to the simple fact they are already "wasting bandwidth" (at least in my system) With 12 channels (127 channel realm) of ESPN Radio...all channels areof the same feed...Also look at channel 121 in my system (channel lineup post 7744). only 1 station in that realm. KET could be moved to that channel realm very easily.

I believe that WCET is feeding TW via fiber not from their digital transmitter directly.

That would be because TW fiber is literally right in front of the WCET studio downtown. However you have a valid point. I wonder if TW were to receive WCET via OTA the same as KET is received if the same problems would exist using the equipment they are using...

Which from what I can gather is the whole problem...Nothing has to be "wasted". There is ample material that could be moved around to use that "wasted" bandwidth. But I doubt seriously that they are concerned with "wasting bandwidth" due to the simple fact they are already "wasting bandwidth" (at least in my system) With 12 channels (127 channel realm) of ESPN Radio...all channels areof the same feed...Also look at channel 121 in my system (channel lineup post 7744). only 1 station in that realm. KET could be moved to that channel realm very easily.


But, even if they *were* to put KET on it's own QAM channel, judging by the detailed info Plughplover has posted regarding how his receiver has been effected, and our previous dissucion regarding the seemingly "sequential" processing of the PMT PID info from PAT's (similar to what we observed with TSreader as we posted) in his case at least He'd likely still have problems with KET4, in "HD mode" ...

Or in otherwords, his receiver(and maybe yours too but perhaps in a different way it seems) would still probably "hang" looking for the info for/in KET3 PMT before it could get to the KET4 info and process it properly/decode it ...

It would however "fix" the problem for WLWT-DT streams ...

edit: Oh -- Still don't understand your "nothing has to be wasted" comment... in order not to "waste" the bandwidth, they have to multiplex "other stuff" with KET on any 6MHZ QAM256 channel, as KET is only/will only use 19.39Mb/s at most(no more as long as it's being received by TW OTA), and the bandwidth of a 6MHZ channel with QAM256 is 38.8Mb/s ...

So, they are multiplexing WLWT-DT's streams with KET's ... If you replace WLWT-DT's streams with something else, it's the same issue involving any issues involved with re-multiplexing KET's streams with "something else" ...


That would be because TW fiber is literally right in front of the WCET studio downtown. However you have a valid point. I wonder if TW were to receive WCET via OTA the same as KET is received if the same problems would exist using the equipment they are using...

Plughplover reported in an earlier post that at one time TW had reports from LG set owners of problems with WCET-DT similar to current reports regarding KET(WCVN-DT locally).

As I've mentioned in at least 2 or 3 posts in the past week or so, I suspect that may have been because at one time WCET was adding/removing program services at certian times of the day.(it was 4 channel SD during the day, 1 HD+2 SD at night).

They did do that differently than KET does, as they removed the VCT+(I think the PAT info as well) on those streams when they were "removed", such that receivers(OTA at least) which relied on "channel scanning" solely for channel tuning "memory" functions would have to rescan every day and every night to be able to decode all of WCET-DT's services (or "subhchannels").

I'm not posistive but from what I can remember was shown at the time in the channel info on their website, I believe they were doing that via cable as well as OTA, I don't know if at that time they were sending the feed to the cableco via fiber or OTA ( I think it was fiber however) ...

I've been calling since that time with no resolution in sight.

In re: ESPN2HD not available to those who should have it

For anyone in the cable industry...

How hard can it be to configure a channel to be part of a tier? I mean isn't this stuff computerized. Isn't it a matter of adding it to something existing?

If I were in sales or marketing at TWC Cincy, I'd be livid since all these subs are expecting ESPN2HD because it was marketed. As a customer, I'm not happy.

Nitewatchman, your grasp of and familiarity with 'the specs' never ceases to amaze me.

And yes, I had already downloaded a number of them (though I missed that A65b vs A65c bit - thanks). Also thanks for the CFR pointer...

I'm going to read that post a few more times, but I see your (main) point; perhaps twc's cvct really IS the problem / solution...

And you've given me more 'armament' for when I talk to them - thanks!

Oh and splicer010 - thanks for the detailed testing report; except for some of the audio problems, the behaviour you describe is quite similar to my set.

BTW, got calls from both Paul B. and Jack U. this evening. Nothing much to report though. I'm still pushing for a sit-down with Mike B.

In re: ESPN2HD not available to those who should have it

For anyone in the cable industry...

How hard can it be to configure a channel to be part of a tier? I mean isn't this stuff computerized. Isn't it a matter of adding it to something existing?

If I were in sales or marketing at TWC Cincy, I'd be livid since all these subs are expecting ESPN2HD because it was marketed. As a customer, I'm not happy.

I'll agree that it's ridiculous that TWC Cincy can't even launch a channel properly... and they've had four months longer than the rest of the divisions that launched it when the contract was signed. I called in and the absolutely clueless girl finally had me reboot my DVR and she "reinitialized" it. That got ESPN2HD to show up.

I also dropped the HD tier because I don't get $6.95 worth of value from Mojo, UHD, HDNet and HDNet Movies. I had to explain to their CSR that I could still get ESPNHD and ESPN2HD without the HD Tier. It's amazing to me that TWC has any customers with the amazing level of cluelessness amongst their CSRs.

I'm waiting to see how the new channels on D* look before I make the switch.

I'll agree that it's ridiculous that TWC Cincy can't even launch a channel properly... and they've had four months longer than the rest of the divisions that launched it when the contract was signed. I called in and the absolutely clueless girl finally had me reboot my DVR and she "reinitialized" it. That got ESPN2HD to show up.



Thanks.

I tried a hard re-boot alone but it still shows ESPN2HD as a subscription channel. I guess I'll have to call in tomorrow night when I have time.

I'm now doing a full rescan on my set for TWC I have lost TNTHD and never havebeen able to find DiscHD even when I tuned to 105-30 which was 10 channels below TNTHD. My tuner is QAM.

I was wondering if a re-boot would do it. I spent about 30 mins on hold only to be told in a 30 sec conversation that ESPN2 would be fixed in the morning and it doesn't need a re-boot or an initialization from them. I would have liked to have seen the Yankees/Red Sox in HD but oh well. We'll see how it is tomorrow. I'm sure she had no idea whether it'd be fixed tomorrow.

It would however "fix" the problem for WLWT-DT streams ...

BINGO! That (for me at least) is the whole point of this ordeal. To get WLWT back on in HD during primetime & beyond. I am tired of missing the first 1/2 hr of LENO & SNL after primetime as well. Point being I want my LOCAL stations to be able to be received. Nothing personnal against KET but I don't care about them as they are not local. WPTD (Dayton) is more local than KET which is only being used because TW can retransmit (effectively adding to the channel lineup) for a minimal cost of equipment only as there is no retransmission fee per subscriber. I know in my headend that is why I put OTA channels on. I haven't heard of anyone complaining that they cannot receive KET nor have I heard praise for the reception either. KET could be dropped in its entirety and I doubt many would miss it. In fact WPTD (Dayton PBS) could easily be put in its place. For that matter WCET analog (entirely different programming from WCET HD) could (should?) be put on. The problem with the latter is the additional (expensive, somewhat anyway) expense that would need to be incurred for additional equipment.

edit: Oh -- Still don't understand your "nothing has to be wasted" comment...

As an example...Channel 121-12 (WSTR) Could go on the 105 channel realm while the KET channels (105-3 thru 105-18) could go on the 121 channel realm...This uses (without "wasting") the EXACT same amount of bandwidth.

I'm sure she had no idea whether it'd be fixed tomorrow.
She doesn't. The HE techs don't discuss things with CSR's. Adding a channel is not always as easy as flipping a switch. Believe me I know...I just added 40+ channels to my HE about 6 months ago...

Plughplover,

First thanks for the complements ... William, Weasel + and DrDon and other various folks are really the folks that deserve the credit however ... Be careful, though as That stuff can REALLY make your eyes go blurry ..

I'm going to read that post a few more times, but I see your (main) point; perhaps twc's cvct really IS the problem / solution...


But, OTOH ;) --- Chasing my "tail" again, I know, but ... If the following is of any consequence perhaps its possible could help you narrow things down a bit ... :

I'm assuming if this were the case you'd already know it/have posted it ... But in case not(it's easy to miss the "fine print" sometimes) ...

On my ZenithHDV420 (ATSC 8VSB OTA only/digital only) receiver, there is "fine print" in the user manual which states info that it doesn't support analog 608 (line 21 captions) and supports only EIA-708 digital captions ...

IF it's the case your receivers don't implement/support PSIP via QAM cable -- I wonder if maybe you might be able to find some "fine print" like that as well? If not in User manual, then on website, or possibly via LG support ... Or, I suppose it's possible you might even get a answer about it in Hardware area at AVSforum .... (don't forget the archives section of AVS for searching, either)

Just a thought, as if you can find out for sure whether or not your receivers support any PSIP via QAM, I would guess you could probably rule out the service location descriptor in CVCT being of any use ... Obviously, it seems to me would indicate you'd likely definitely need the stream description info in PMT's on KET3, 5+6 between 19:58~00:02, or for the PAT info on KET3,5,6 dropped as well ..dunno if it would just have to be the PMT PID info, or everything else in PAT on KET3,5+6 as well ...

BTW, my Zenith receiver(Paul210 has or had one as well) was the last Zenith branded LG DTV receiver, and was "just before" LG line of STB's which includes the LG-3510a ... It was discontinued when that line of STB's(with 4th generation chipsets - which for the most part is what my zenith has in it) came out ....


BTW, got calls from both Paul B. and Jack U. this evening. Nothing much to report though. I'm still pushing for a sit-down with Mike B.

Good luck ... Judging from past experience, getting hold of the right folks and to the point that they "notice" something is wrong is probably going to be 3/4 of the battle, or at least 1/2 of it ... And it seems you've already done that ...

Point being I want my LOCAL stations to be able to be received.


KET/WCVN-DT is a local Cincinnati station. They transmit from Taylor Mill, KY. It's about 4~5 Miles South of Ohio River.

KET is a statewide network, that serves KY and areas of bordering states.

N KY is also a little closer to Cincinnati than Dayton. Well, actually a LOT closer.


haven't heard of anyone complaining that they cannot receive KET nor have I heard praise for the reception either. KET could be dropped in its entirety and I doubt many would miss it.


Personally, I don't care at all about what "cable" does, I don't use it and am not interested in using it. You haven't heard people complaining as only certian cable QAM in the clear receivers are apparently effected by the problem you and Plughplover are experiencing. Also, KET1 is carried on analog TW cable as well. Most people are still watching that.

I *do* care about KET, and receive excellent reception up here of WCVN-DT OTA from 12 Miles SW of Dayton .... I know that KET is a very important station for me, as I'm "partly" from KY. I watch a LOT of the KET produced programming on there as well as KET4 HD ....

Many in this area seem to as well(I'm sure some of them watching via cable), judging by the calls they get on shows such as KY afield from Folks in Hamilton+butler Counties, and the pledges from SW ohio listed during their pledge drives ....


As an example...Channel 121-12 (WSTR) Could go on the 105 channel realm while the KET channels (105-3 thru 105-18) could go on the 121 channel realm...This uses (without "wasting") the EXACT same amount of bandwidth.

Sorry, but That makes no sense. If All that is on 121 now is WSTR-DT(a station just added to TW's system) then it's not using ~19Mb/s of the available payload. Actually it's more than that it isn't using since WSTR generally runs about 15Mb/s. So it's "wasting" bandwidth currently just as WCVN would be if it were there by itself.

AGain, they are 6MHZ channels, 38.8Mb/s payload "fits" in 6MHZ with QAM256 which TW is using for their digital cable. Each digital broadcast stations's transport stream is only going to be 19.39Mb/s at most ....

Sorry, but That makes no sense. If All that is on 121 now is WSTR than it's not using 19Mb/s of bandwidth(actually it's more than that since WSTR generally runs about 15Mb/s. so it's "wasting" bandwidth currently just as WCVN would be if it were there by itself.

AGain, they are 6MHZ channels, 38Mb/s "fits" in 6MHZ. Each broadcast station is only going to be 19.39Mb/s ....


Sure it makes sense...All that is happening is the changing of the channel assignment is all.

Oh well, I tried ....

Maybe someone else can explain it to him more clearly than I can ....

If anyone cares around here, BTN has reached an agreement with Insight:
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/08/29/ap4066051.html

I have been experimenting the last few evenings and I have been getting repeated results so thought I would post now...

As long as I have my LG LST3510a tuned to channel 105-6 (which is KET4 as everyonne calls it) KET ED before 8PM, at 8PM when KET switches to their HD feed, I get 105-33 NBC WeatherPlus video but no audio...Now when I either manually or just using the channel up/down button on the remote, change channels, (staying in the 105 channel realm) and return to 105-6, I get both video and audio:eek:. Then when scanning the other KET channels (105-3 & 105-4) I aso get the video and audio on those channels as well!

splicer010, if you are inclined to do further experiments, I am interested in the 'one minute window'.

For example, tune to ket5 or ket6 before the transition; when it shuts down step up/down on 105 and see what you get. Also during that minute, tune away from 105 and then back and see what you get.

Has anyone else noticed a crackle in the sound lately? I have heard it on Wheel of Fortune(I don't watch it, but heard the crackle while filpping), Jeopardy and also on the local news. The crackle is only heard on the sound effects, not voices. I have heard it in the past on Wheel and Jeopardy and has been reported earlier this summer, but it seemed to clear up. Let me know if you all are hearing it too.

Just tried TW this morning at 0845. Still showing ESPN2-HD as a subscription service. Additionaly TW964(WSTR-HD) comes up as a blank gray screen. Sometimes I have to punch it in 2-3 times to get it to connect.

Personally, I don't care at all about what "cable" does, I don't use it and am not interested in using it.

I *do* care about KET

Same here on both points.

All this fuss and pain with cable QAM is sort of making me laugh a bit. I remember when I thought that OTA reception was "difficult." But really, the one phone call I made to have an antenna installer install my antenna seems to be a lot less "painful" than what some people are going through just to get what I already have.

Has anyone else noticed a crackle in the sound lately? I have heard it on Wheel of Fortune(I don't watch it, but heard the crackle while filpping), Jeopardy and also on the local news. The crackle is only heard on the sound effects, not voices. I have heard it in the past on Wheel and Jeopardy and has been reported earlier this summer, but it seemed to clear up. Let me know if you all are hearing it too.

Yes, I noticed it last night during "Wheel". It seemed to be a distortion coming out of the rear speakers, but perhaps that's because I was standing beside one of them when I first heard it.

So for the QAM tv tuner only TNTHD and DISCHD are gone forever?? Also ESPN Classic. I didn't watch those channels much, but it looked awesome on my tv and sucks to lose them. I figured they would change it so I would have to get their digital package and cable box. I've got to many remotes, electronics and not enough inputs as it is.

splicer010, if you are inclined to do further experiments, I am interested in the 'one minute window'.

For example, tune to ket5 or ket6 before the transition; when it shuts down step up/down on 105 and see what you get. Also during that minute, tune away from 105 and then back and see what you get.
I'll check but I know that when I am on 105-1 (WLWT) when the switch on KET4 occurs, I lose everything in the 105 channel realm. But I will see tonight about staying on when tuned to KET6 tho those channels go away when the switch is made.

I don't really understand where this "one minute window" comes from??? Once it switches there is no window that leaves anything else on or off as either they all stay (as reported in your quote of my post) or they are all off instantaniously.

But as I said I will check this evening and report back.

If anyone cares around here, BTN has reached an agreement with Insight:
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/08/29/ap4066051.html

I heard on the news this morning that TWC still hasn't reached an agreement with the Big Ten Network, or the NFL Network. TWC says they both want too much money.

I heard on the news this morning that TWC still hasn't reached an agreement with the Big Ten Network, or the NFL Network. TWC says they both want too much money.

They want on the basic tier and refuse to strike a deal putting them on a sports tier. Since I'm not interested in cable until I can pay for only the channels I want, I am on TW's side with this. Why should everyone have to pay for this new channel?

She doesn't. The HE techs don't discuss things with CSR's. Adding a channel is not always as easy as flipping a switch. Believe me I know...I just added 40+ channels to my HE about 6 months ago...

Splicer:

Since I've been complaining about TWC's new channel adds, I realize I know nothing about the process. Can you educate the board on what it takes? Perhaps that will give us all some much needed patience as we anxiously anticipate watching ESPN2HD.

Thanks.

I have a hard time siding with any TV provider. People need to get the money factor out of their head since it's unlikely that all or much of that cost would reach the consumer. The key feature that is keeping these deals from being made is the tier carriage. The networks wants their channel to be viewed and they want to be able to compete fairly with other channels so they've asked for expanded basic carriage.

Anyway, your cable rates are going to go up, wouldn't you want something for your money?

Splicer:

Since I've been complaining about TWC's new channel adds, I realize I know nothing about the process. Can you educate the board on what it takes? Perhaps that will give us all some much needed patience as we anxiously anticipate watching ESPN2HD.

Thanks.

In order to explain it I would have to write a post twice as long as some of these long posts in this thread.;) But suffice to say that everything has to fit PERFECTLY together like a jigsaw puzzle to work correctly with everything else that is already there.

Now as to why TW gave a date and things weren't ready to go is anybodies guess. The equipment may not have been received on time, defective equipment, wrong equipment, software issues, satellite issues...it is really hard to say since it could be any # of issues combined or just one issue...

The one minute window is at 19:59:00, when KET 5 and KET 6 drop (It frees bandwidth so that the muxes don't overrate) then at 19:59:58 with KET 4 SD encoder is switched out and the HD encoder is switched into its place.

I would like to personally thank our viewers in the Cincy area for their support. If we didn't care I wouldn't be on here....

The key feature that is keeping these deals from being made is the tier carriage. The networks wants their channel to be viewed and they want to be able to compete fairly with other channels so they've asked for expanded basic carriage.


Not being privey to TW's retrans agreements I can only speak for the retrans agreements I myself have negotiated. The networks, while indeed wanting to know where their channel is to be placed in the channel line-up, generally do not ask to be carried in any specific tier, unless they are providing their services for free at which point they want to be in the basic or expanded basic tier where the cable co can't make any additional money off of the channel.

Now once a retrans agreement has been settled on (IE...how much $$$ per subscriber) the cable co is free to put that channel at any tier or level they desire since they pay for that channel. Now if it benefits the cable co to place a channel (such as BTN for example) in the expanded basic tier, that is where it will be placed. If it benefits the cable co to place BTN on a subscription only sports tier then that is where it will be placed. It is all in what benefits the cable co as to how it will be placed in a channel line-up. HOWEVER, there ARE networks out there that REQUIRE their programming be placed on a specific subscription tier so as not to have the channel devalued by being placed in a general basic tier. Don't forget your local cable co is in business to make money and they will do so one way or the other.

Of course there is much more to this generalization I have provided but I hope this helps explain some of the 'mysteries' around programming means and methods.

The one minute window is at 19:59:00, when KET 5 and KET 6 drop (It frees bandwidth so that the muxes don't overrate) then at 19:59:58 with KET 4 SD encoder is switched out and the HD encoder is switched into its place.

I would like to personally thank our viewers in the Cincy area for their support. If we didn't care I wouldn't be on here....

All righty then...I will check this evening beginning on KET 6 and see what happens. So basically y'all want to know if after KET 5 & 6 'drop' if I can go to KET 4 and still get the HD transmission???

I meant no offense to you or any KET viewers when I said I am not interested in KET. I am sure there are more than I realize in the Cinti area that DO look forward to KET programming. Again I am not asking for KET to be dropped from the channel line-up, but rather move it and go from there. It is obvious it isn't working (correctly) where it is so I think it should be isolated (for lack of a better term) untill at the very least this issue can be resolved.

Over on the Tivo Community Forum, it appears as though TIme Warner Cincinnati has put the ENTIRE Digital Standard Tier into SDV!

You will not be able to get ESPN HD, ESPN2 HD, TNT HD, or Discovery HD via CableCards or whatever other means you were receiving them before. Only TW Cable boxes!!!!

But I doubt seriously that they are concerned with "wasting bandwidth" due to the simple fact they are already "wasting bandwidth" (at least in my system) With 12 channels (127 channel realm) of ESPN Radio...all channels are of the same feed..

I noticed something weird about the Amelia HE -- on many of the non-broadcast channels, it will include programs in the PAT twice, with 8000 hex added to the program number for the duplicate. So 127-11 will also apppear on 127-32779. It looks like your receiver limits the subchannel number to 3 digits. So 127 really only has 6 programs, and 6 dups. I havent looked in detail at the PATs and PMTs to see if they are trying to split up the info or what.

Also, these 6 ESPN channels are for the ESPN Full Court PPV, which I think is only used for college basketball. They put ESPN radio on it as filler.

The networks, while indeed wanting to know where their channel is to be placed in the channel line-up, generally do not ask to be carried in any specific tier, unless they are providing their services for free at which point they want to be in the basic or expanded basic tier where the cable co can't make any additional money off of the channel.

Sorry, I was too general. When I said "The Networks" I was referring to NFL Network and BTN as blbrodbeck mentioned.

Over on the Tivo Community Forum, it appears as though TIme Warner Cincinnati has put the ENTIRE Digital Standard Tier into SDV!

You will not be able to get ESPN HD, ESPN2 HD, TNT HD, or Discovery HD via CableCards or whatever other means you were receiving them before. Only TW Cable boxes!!!!

These HD Channels are available with the Standard Tier; TNT-HD and Discovery-HD were previously available in the clear for QAM tuners (even though TWC didn't really advertise that fact); and I watched them alot! To verify, TWC now has taken all those HD channels away, and added WSTR-HD in the clear (whoopee). Seems I should still get "what I am paying for" even tho I don't have a set top box; by using my QAM tuner. I think it would be beneficial to them to let all the Standard Tier HD channels in the clear; so they would not have to support the set top boxes. I would never expect TWC to support or fix anything associated with me using my QAM tuner on my Vizio.

How much is the set top box per month...$5?

I reported this issue earlier this summer and while it cleared up for a while, it was definitely back in full force last night

Wheel and Jeopardy both sounded like crap.

Tony

These HD Channels are available with the Standard Tier; TNT-HD and Discovery-HD were previously available in the clear for QAM tuners (even though TWC didn't really advertise that fact); and I watched them alot! To verify, TWC now has taken all those HD channels away, and added WSTR-HD in the clear (whoopee). Seems I should still get "what I am paying for" even tho I don't have a set top box; by using my QAM tuner. I think it would be beneficial to them to let all the Standard Tier HD channels in the clear; so they would not have to support the set top boxes. I would never expect TWC to support or fix anything associated with me using my QAM tuner on my Vizio.

How much is the set top box per month...$5?.

For digital 1000 it's 55.38 + 7.95 for the box. $63.33 total maybe add tax.
It's about $13 more then I'm paying $49 basic no box.

When I went to the local store/bill pay office she quoted me around $48 digital 1000 and box for one year special.

The hard part is making them give you a box with hdmi. I'm out of component inputs!!!! The box they were going to give me looked like 5 years old so I said I'll think about it.

I have a hard time siding with any TV provider. People need to get the money factor out of their head since it's unlikely that all or much of that cost would reach the consumer. The key feature that is keeping these deals from being made is the tier carriage. The networks wants their channel to be viewed and they want to be able to compete fairly with other channels so they've asked for expanded basic carriage.

Anyway, your cable rates are going to go up, wouldn't you want something for your money?

This is not about tier carriage. It's all about money.

Big Ten wants to be paid $1/sub. If it's on everyone's package then they get $x.xx. If it's subscription only then maybe they'll get one tenth of that if 10% of the folks are willing to sign up for that package. Huge difference in terms of $$.

What I don't get it why these things are almost always immediately picked up by the Dish folks but it takes years to negotiate with cable companies. Surely D* is paying $1/sub too.

This is not about tier carriage. It's all about money.

Big Ten wants to be paid $1/sub. If it's on everyone's package then they get $x.xx. If it's subscription only then maybe they'll get one tenth of that if 10% of the folks are willing to sign up for that package. Huge difference in terms of $$.

What I don't get it why these things are almost always immediately picked up by the Dish folks but it takes years to negotiate with cable companies. Surely D* is paying $1/sub too.

I checked with Direct TV today. They include the Big Ten Package with all Choice and above packages. You don't need an extra sports pacakge. I may have to drop TW real soon. How good is internet with Direct TV. May keep it with TW.

I checked with Direct TV today. They include the Big Ten Package with all Choice and above packages. You don't need an extra sports pacakge. I may have to drop TW real soon. How good is internet with Direct TV. May keep it with TW.

Well Choice is not D*'s most basic level. Choice is over 140 channels. I'd say that compares to TW's digital package. I think a fair deal would be for TW to agree to put it on its digital package like it does with ESPN U right now.

Well Choice is not D*'s most basic level. Choice is over 140 channels. I'd say that compares to TW's digital package. I think a fair deal would be for TW to agree to put it on its digital package like it does with ESPN U right now.
Choice (formally Total Choice) is what D* considers their base package.

This is not about tier carriage. It's all about money.

Big Ten wants to be paid $1/sub. If it's on everyone's package then they get $x.xx. If it's subscription only then maybe they'll get one tenth of that if 10% of the folks are willing to sign up for that package. Huge difference in terms of $$.
Usually the argument is that they're asking too much per subscriber, that's my point. Sure BTN certainly stands to make alot more money if it's carried on the expanded basic tier. There was a news article that said the per subscriber rate was negotiable while Comcast cries they're asking too much per subscriber. This leads me to believe the tier placement is the point the major providers and BTN cannot agree on.

How good is internet with Direct TV. May keep it with TW.
D* internet (HughesNet) is expensive and not the same as DSL or Cable. I would highly recommend sticking with cable/DSL if you have access. HughesNet is really only good for those that have no access to other HSI.

I think there is a family package below choice (less channels). I have the old total choice still. Yes, BTN. and NFL

If I switch from TW to D*, I understand that I will get local channels. They also say that they are also available in HD. She also said they got the local feed off of the satellite. Ididn't know that 5, 9 & 12 uplinked to satelittes. If it is not on the bird then they must have an additional antennae that picks up the locals over the air. So confusing.

If I go with D* and include HD will I for example get the local channel 9 news and Jeopardy in HD or not?

Also TW says they are negotiating for the Big Ten package but knowing them, it could be a year away. The season is starting.

Just got through talking to TW customer support. Apparently the problem is fixed for those with cable boxes. If you have a cable box and still cant get ESPN2 HD, you can either re-boot the box by unplugging the box for 5 minutes or having the CS folks send a hit to your box. The Power button re-boot does not work. I had them re-authorize (re-boot) my boxes and now I can get ESPN2 HD.

If I switch from TW to D*, I understand that I will get local channels. They also say that they are also available in HD. She also said they got the local feed off of the satellite. Ididn't know that 5, 9 & 12 uplinked to satelittes. If it is not on the bird then they must have an additional antennae that picks up the locals over the air. So confusing.

If I go with D* and include HD will I for example get the local channel 9 news and Jeopardy in HD or not?

Also TW says they are negotiating for the Big Ten package but knowing them, it could be a year away. The season is starting.


Use an antenna for HD locals and don't pay extra for them...

Use an antenna for HD locals and don't pay extra for them...

I am not sure if my TV will get directly over the air. It's kind of confusing. I have seen page after page on this site about the problems people have with direct viewing and remapping and a lot of other terms that I don't understand. I think I prefer a direct feed from TW, D* or some other source.

If I switch from TW to D*, I understand that I will get local channels. They also say that they are also available in HD. She also said they got the local feed off of the satellite. Ididn't know that 5, 9 & 12 uplinked to satelittes. If it is not on the bird then they must have an additional antennae that picks up the locals over the air. So confusing.

If I go with D* and include HD will I for example get the local channel 9 news and Jeopardy in HD or not?

Yes, D* provides locals (WCPO-DT, WXIX-DT, WKRC-DT, and WLWT-DT), at no additional cost, from their satellite.

I am not sure if my TV will get directly over the air. It's kind of confusing. I have seen page after page on this site about the problems people have with direct viewing and remapping and a lot of other terms that I don't understand. I think I prefer a direct feed from TW, D* or some other source.

D* does offer Cincinnati locals in HD, MPEG-4. So you would get the same locals as you do with TW (NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX). I don't have D*, so I can't comment on the quality, but I have heard from others that the picture quality is really good. As far as internet, you can do a bundle with CinBell, phone, cell, DSL, D*, and get some discounts. I have Zoomtown DSL from CinBell and have been pretty happy with it, $30 for a little slower internet vs. $60 RR. Between E* and D*, I would say either is a much better option than TW.

splicer010 - yes, as soon as ket5/6 drop, I'm interested in what you get accessing other streams on 105, and also what happens / what streams you get when you tune away from 105 and then back to it during the one minute window.

et.al. - I called TWC cust service this morning;

I made sure they had my account details on their screen; I verified with them that I have standard service. Then I quoted the line-up card they sent out re: tnt-hd etc
"Requires an HD television and an HD receiver plus a minimum of standard service."

I said that as of yesterday my receivers are now reporting tnt-hd etc as scrambled.

She said our records don't indicate you have one of our receivers. I said 'that is correct, I have store bought tuners that decode un-encrypted digital cable signals, and have enjoyed those channels for years. Now suddenly they are gone. I want them back, and according to your latest mailing, I should get them.'

She put me on hold to consult with a supervisor, then came back on with 'they are now on a tier and you will need one of our boxes to receive them.'

So I asked how much that would cost. Which immediately started the sales pitch for digipic 1000, Digital value tier, etc.

I repeated the quote from the line card and said, no I want to know how much the receiver rental will cost to allow me to receive those channels. After a few moments she quoted me a price that was $15 more than I am paying now. I asked if that meant the box cost $15/mo? She said no, the box costs $8/mo. I asked then why is the price $15, she said, well the cable guide, yadda yadda yadda.

I said, No, I didn't ask for all that stuff, I asked what it would cost for me to receive the channels I am eligible for with standard service. A pause, and she said 8$/mo.

I asked is that total or per set. She said per set. So I summarized - in order for my three devices to receive the channels I've enjoyed for the last few years it will now cost me an additional $24/mo. She said yes.

I asked her to let the powers that be know that I think this sucks and that I was a very unhappy customer.

TWC has always said subscription to digital service and STB/CableCARD has been required to access channels such as TNT-HD. So they've implemented something that has now enforced that tier placement and you're surprised? Just because you could get them before doesn't mean you were entitled to them.

The only anti-consumer move they've made, as I see it, is in making CableCARD useless for these channels.

TWC has always said subscription to digital service and STB/CableCARD has been required to access channels such as TNT-HD.

I beg to differ, and the latest line-up card also supports this.

Neither "HD Basic" nor "HD Standard" require a subscription to a 'digital service/tier' (and my recent phone call confirmed this).

However, they have made an "anti-consumer move" in now requiring the use of equipment that they'll happily lease to you for 8$/mo/set.

OK...Leaving the LG on 105-18 (KET 6) itdropped out for a couple of seconds then returned @ 7:57PM.
When KET 6 Dropped, @ 7:59PM, KET 5 also dropped. I still got KET 4 but it was a message board only. No audio.
When KET 4 went HD EVERYTHING dropped but then immediately returned. HOWEVER, I had/have NO AUDIOwhat-so-ever on any KET remaining stations KET1 KET2 and KET 4...
I did/do have audio (as well as video) for 105-1 WLWT & 105-33 WeatherPlus.

Changing channels AWAY from the 105 realm results the same as always, every other channel is unaffected and working properly until returning to the 105 realm where I get 'NO SIGNAL' on every 105 channel.

Once ket4 went to HD you were outside the window.
I was hoping you'd get the tune away/back test within the window.

Better luck next time ;)

It is obvious it isn't working (correctly) where it is so I think it should be isolated (for lack of a better term) untill at the very least this issue can be resolved.


Now THAT makes sense, especially as it pertains to some receivers' problems selecting+decoding WLWT-DT streams when KET4 is in HD mode(and the KET5/6 dropped ~1 minute "windows"), as you say at least while they're getting the issue straightened out.

If they were to do that, it also would allow for an interesting "experiment" for you and Plughplover to see what happens on your receivers regarding selection and decoding of KET services, especially KET 4 HD between 20:00 and 00:00.

Although they may not want to do that, and if they feel it is required or necessary to address the issue on their end at all, they may instead want to fully resolve the issue so that 1/2 of a QAM256 channel's bandwidth is not wasted by putting ONLY KET digital on any given available channel ...

As for why that bandwidth would be "wasted" I'll try this one more time ....

WLWT-DT+WCVN-DT transport streams(each no more than 19.39Mb/s) are currently remultiplexed into 1 transport stream by TW so they can better "fill up" a 6MHZ QAM 256 channel(38.8Mb/s capacity). They do this In order to efficiently use the portion of their available bandwidth, or you could call it "digital channel capacity" ... If only WLWT or WCVN was using that channel(or any channel), than 1/2 of that channel's capacity would be wasted, no ifs ands or buts about it. You could call it "available" instead of "wasted" but both mean the same thing in this context.

Having "wasted" or "available" bandwidth available is not necessarily a bad thing, and I never said it was. Its not a bad thing because it can be used to add more services in the future.

Here's an analogy for you ...

There are two buckets of equal size.

One bucket is full of beer, one bucket is half full of beer.

The bucket that is half full has 1/2 of it's capacity wasted. No if's and's or buts ... Even if the reason one bucket is only 1/2 full is because you do not have any more beer to put in it, and even if you have a 3rd(or more) empty bucket available ...

Even if the brewmeister made a mistake, and flavored the beer in the 1/2 full bucket differently than in the completely full bucket, although it's desirable to put the lesser quanity of differently flavored beer in a bucket of its own -- Still, 1/2 the capacity of that 1/2 full bucket is wasted. No ifs, ands or buts.

Even if you have 50 or more empty buckets available to put beer in, nevertheless 1/2 the capacity of the bucket that is only half full of beer is wasted, and ALL of the capacity of 48 buckets are wasted, because you don't have enough beer to put in all of them. That's not importanant if you only have enough beer to fill less than 2 buckets, but what *would* be important is if you had enough beer to fill 5 buckets but only have 2 buckets, or if you have a party and need 50 bucketfulls of beer but only have 2 buckets available .... And "someday" TW may have enough "beer" to fill all their buckets, hence the wisdom in finding ways to efficently use their bandwidth NOW, although they may not need to efficently utilize ALL of their available bandwidth, currently ...

More services they can sell/more available bandwidth(more efficently using the bandwidth they have) = more $ for them ....


But I doubt seriously that they are concerned with "wasting bandwidth"


They may not need or have enough services currently to fill up all of their currently available(currently wasted since it's not being used or is being used for duplicate services/etc) bandwidth, but you can bet they are concerned about it .... as time goes on more and more services which are SD only currently are going to be transistioning or "adding" HD, which with MPEG2(other codecs would be similar although more efficent codecs require less bandwidth for either SD or HD, respectively) requires at least approximately 4x as much bandwidth as an SD version ...

I beg to differ, and the latest line-up card also supports this.

Neither "HD Basic" nor "HD Standard" require a subscription to a 'digital service/tier' (and my recent phone call confirmed this).

However, they have made an "anti-consumer move" in now requiring the use of equipment that they'll happily lease to you for 8$/mo/set.

Sorry, I wasn't fully informed about the most recent lineup change. Up until today, Discovery HD Theater and TNT-HD were a part of the Digital Tier and on paper they required digital service subscription and a box. Now they're only requiring the equipment lease which is an improvement for the consumer.

Once ket4 went to HD you were outside the window.
I was hoping you'd get the tune away/back test within the window.

Better luck next time ;)

So you want me to switch to say 109-2 (WXIX) as soon as KET6 drops out and then try to tune back to KET4??? Theres always tomorrow night... :)

Now THAT makes sense, especially as it pertains to some receivers' problems selecting+decoding WLWT-DT streams when KET4 is in HD mode(and the KET5/6 dropped ~1 minute "windows"), as you say at least while they're getting the issue straightened out.

If they were to do that, it also would allow for an interesting "experiment" for you and Plughplover to see what happens on your receivers regarding selection and decoding of KET services, especially KET 4 HD between 20:00 and 00:00.

Although they may not want to do that, and if they feel it is required or necessary to address the issue on their end at all, they may instead want to fully resolve the issue so that 1/2 of a QAM256 channel's bandwidth is not wasted by putting ONLY KET digital on any given available channel ...

As for why that bandwidth would be "wasted" I'll try this one more time ....

WLWT-DT+WCVN-DT transport streams(each no more than 19.39Mb/s) are currently remultiplexed into 1 transport stream by TW so they can better "fill up" a 6MHZ QAM 256 channel(38.8Mb/s capacity). They do this In order to efficiently use the portion of their available bandwidth, or you could call it "digital channel capacity" ... If only WLWT or WCVN was using that channel(or any channel), than 1/2 of that channel's capacity would be wasted, no ifs ands or buts about it. You could call it "available" instead of "wasted" but both mean the same thing in this context.

Having "wasted" or "available" bandwidth available is not necessarily a bad thing, and I never said it was. Its not a bad thing because it can be used to add more services in the future.

Here's an analogy for you ...

There are two buckets of equal size.

One bucket is full of beer, one bucket is half full of beer.

The bucket that is half full has 1/2 of it's capacity wasted. No if's and's or buts ... Even if the reason one bucket is only 1/2 full is because you do not have any more beer to put in it, and even if you have a 3rd(or more) empty bucket available ...

Even if the brewmeister made a mistake, and flavored the beer in the 1/2 full bucket differently than in the completely full bucket, although it's desirable to put the lesser quanity of differently flavored beer in a bucket of its own -- Still, 1/2 the capacity of that 1/2 full bucket is wasted. No ifs, ands or buts.

Even if you have 50 or more empty buckets available to put beer in, nevertheless 1/2 the capacity of the bucket that is only half full of beer is wasted, and ALL of the capacity of 48 buckets are wasted, because you don't have enough beer to put in all of them. That's not importanant if you only have enough beer to fill less than 2 buckets, but what *would* be important is if you had enough beer to fill 5 buckets but only have 2 buckets, or if you have a party and need 50 bucketfulls of beer but only have 2 buckets available .... And "someday" TW may have enough "beer" to fill all their buckets, hence the wisdom in finding ways to efficently use their bandwidth NOW, although they may not need to efficently utilize ALL of their available bandwidth, currently ...

More services they can sell/more available bandwidth(more efficently using the bandwidth they have) = more $ for them ....



They may not need or have enough services currently to fill up all of their currently available(currently wasted since it's not being used or is being used for duplicate services/etc) bandwidth, but you can bet they are concerned about it .... as time goes on more and more services which are SD only currently are going to be transistioning or "adding" HD, which with MPEG2(other codecs would be similar although more efficent codecs require less bandwidth for either SD or HD, respectively) requires at least approximately 4x as much bandwidth as an SD version ...

Jeff...I don't drink... ;)

Now that, thats out of the way we are I believe on the same page but one of us (YOU ;) ) is reading with blurry glasses on (could be all that beer you were talking about ;) ) (I kid, I kid!!! :) ). WCVN only has 19Mbs alloted to them and that is being fully used at any one time. WSTR (channel 121-12) also only has 19Mbs alloted but they are only using 15Mbs (say you, I honestly don't know but do believe what you say). What I am suggestng is to switch WSTR from 121-12 and relocating it to the 105 realm while at the same time relocating WCVN to the 121 realm. Nothing more is being "wasted" or unused in my scenario than the present conditions. Maybe I did not word myself correctly which led you to misinterpret me and if so I apologize. But ultimately we are on the same team here and I think there was just a misunderstanding.

I do realize that WSTR is currently using 15Mbs of their alloted 19Mbs for transmission of one program channel. At the same time I also realize that WCVN is currently using (during NON prime time) all 19Mbs for the transmission of 6 program channels. Therefore WCVN is utilizing their full bandwidth allotment at any one time (prime time & non primetime) while at the same time WSTR is "wasting" 3 point whatever Mbs because they are only utilizing 15 point whatever Mbs both during primetime & non primetime transmission.:D

I beg to differ, and the latest line-up card also supports this.

Neither "HD Basic" nor "HD Standard" require a subscription to a 'digital service/tier' (and my recent phone call confirmed this).

However, they have made an "anti-consumer move" in now requiring the use of equipment that they'll happily lease to you for 8$/mo/set.

Maybe so but I know for a fact that before TW took over Adelphia, Adelphia required the subscription to the digital tier in order to receive any HD programming. Also Adelphia had the locals scrambled initially, mandating the rental of their equipment. I was the first one on this node to get HSI and HD and I had to pay for the digital tier which ticked me off, hence the reason I dropped the video but kept the HSI.

Now I just went to TW and have to rent a box for the digital tier which I MUST HAVE if I want to subscribe to HD and get their box. This was just told to me not 1 month ago. Now don't forget I am on a different headend and as such we use a completely different make/model of STB than the Cinti crowd. We use Motorola, Cinti uses SA...

Sorry for pulling this up from several days ago, as I missed commenting on it ... Think we discussed this in Dayton thread before, but of course it "works both ways" so ....

.... I was happy to see the game last night on WKRC. I had to switch to their analog channel periodically due to adjacent channel interference from WRGT-DT, but at least I had something to watch. It was much cheaper than watching it at BW3's, or paying for cable/satellite. Thanks, WKRC!

Yep, would like to see better HD PQ on WKRC-DT during bandwidth demanding portions of programming, but still agree with you on all points ... I'm currently not OTA only(it's my primary means of getting TV though) as I subscribe to SD only E* AT100 package(no locals via LiL of course) ... But still appreciate both the HD from WKRC-DT as well as the game on WKRC analog as well ... The analog OTA PQ (with good reception) is even certianly better than what dish is sending for ESPN SD digital wise ....

--------------------------------------------------------

Of course, the Good news is, Regarding your WRGT-DT/WKRC-DT adjacent channel issue, that'll be gone when WKRC-DT moves to 12 after analog shut off .. Which is only 17 months, 18 Days, 2.5 hours away ....

The bad news being WXIX-DT 29 and WRGT-DT 30 are staying where they are, so you'll still have it there for WXIX-DT .... FCC messed up IMO by allowing those two to stay where they are post transistion, I know they are both Fox, but for instance, they do sometimes occaisonally air different NFL HD games ...

It's too complicated to explain fully it but basically, I consider that to be a "loophole" of sorts since they elected during channel election process to stay on their current channel allocations which were developed in the 90's for the current DTV table of allotments(for during transistion) : they are probably *exempt* in a sense from the geographic spacing requirements, or 1st adjacent channel interference protection considerations that would likely apply to them, otherwise - such as if they were a station filing for a NEW application to operate on Channel 30, or probably if they had been on other channels during the transistion and tried to move to 29+30 during the DTV channel election procedure for post-transistion, which has already been completed with FCC releasing the post-transistion DTV table of allotments in Early august.

One interesting thing to note is that in round one of channel election procedure, WRGT DID file to elect to use 45 for digital after analog shut off. BUT, FCC sent them an interference conflict notice, and they changed their channel election to channel 30. I have no idea what that interference conflict notice said, but expect it could involve interference issue with WXIN-DT 45 Indianapolis, which is staying on 45 post transistion, where they are now. A strange thing about the channel election rules said that stations staying where they are now have "Full interference protection" but stations that elected to return to their analog channel assignment had to PROTECT any other stations from interference -- Meaning, in WRGT's case, if they would have moved their digital to 45 after analog shut off, they'd have to do things such as reduce power or use directional transmitting antennas to protect WXIX-DT 45 Indy from interference .... Luckily, that wasn't an issue it seems for WKRC moving to 12 ...

update: Also, If WXIX-DT had elected to move the digital to 19, I suspect the biggest interference protection issue for them might have been co-channel WBKI-DT 19, Campbellsville, KY (CW HD, serves Louisville DMA, BTW)...

for more info, see CFR 47 $73.622 here - The current rules for the original DTV table of allotments (search for "spacing" to find the portions of it relevant to geographic spacing):

http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2007/73/622/

And, The current rules, CFR 47 $73.623 for DTV applications for changes to DTV allotments is here :

http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2007/73/623/

In the latter, a portion of it says "No petiton to add a new channel to the DTV table of Allotments of modify an allotment not included in the initial DTV table will be accepted unless it shows compliance with the requirements of this paragraph ......."

What is says for UHF DTV stations per the above quote is no allotment is premitted per that rule on adjacent channel between 24km and 110km in all zones. (That's 14.91 miles to 68.35 Miles). WRGT-DT 30 and WXIX-DT 29 transmitter sites being only about 42 miles apart, so they would not be permitted under those rules, LOL ....

Strange, isn't it ... Especially as WXIX-DT's 41dbu service contour covers areas near+to the North of WRGT-DT's transmitting location, including your receive location if I recall correctly ... WRGT-DT's transmitting antenna pattern has a bit of a null to the south(the main lobe is towards Springfield) and therefore doesn't favor receive locations South of WXIX's tower so much as is the case with WXIX to the North, nevertheless, I expect some viewers in N KY who might want to receive WRGT-DT(and would be able to if WXIX wasn't there) may be effected by WXIX-DT's strong signal ....(and WKRC-DT's as well, currently) ....


-------------------

A detailed explaination of the rules/procedures that governed the channel election process can be found within FCC's 2nd DTV Review Report and order available here :

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-04-192A1.pdf

What I am suggestng is to switch WSTR from 121-12 and relocating it to the 105 realm while at the same time relocating WCVN to the 121 realm. Nothing more is being "wasted" or unused in my scenario than the present conditions.


I did not say anything *more* would be wasted with that scenerio ... I think I was very careful to make sure I did NOT say that ...

update: My *KEY* point was, TW is making more efficient use of their capacity(bandwidth) by multiplexing the streams from Two broadcast DTV stations into one QAM256 channel. It is not an efficent use of their capacity to place only One DTV broadcast transport stream on a channel, at ~19Mb/s or less, and not use the other 1/2+ of that channel's capacity(38.8Mb/s total.)

As for WSTR-DT being by "itself" on a channel currently -- I wouldn't count on that being a permanent thing, in fact I wouldn't be surprised at all if it ends up being only VERY temporary. And I'm not positive but I do not think it would necessary have to be streams from another broadcast DTV station that could "share" the capacity of the channel they are on ....


Maybe I did not word myself correctly ......... if so I apologize.


No big deal, no problem+no need to apologize ....


..... I think there was just a misunderstanding.


Again, no big deal ..... I wasn't even thinking of it in terms of something as "serious" as a "misunderstanding", which of course would not even be a "serious" thing to begin with ...

And really I'm just cluttering up the thread with this unnecessary post when I should be watching HDTV ... But to be clear ....

I do like to take every effort possible to make sure I post as accurately as possible here, and In some cases that involves posts of others or posts I'm responding to as well ... I also appreciate when others point out mistakes/etc in my posts as well ....

Because, as you may have noticed, There is a LOT of misinformation being presented out there on issues such as involving HDTV or the DTV transistion, and it's difficult enough to sort through some of this stuff even if you are working with completely accurate information ...

It's not that I have some sort of "agenda" to give you(or anyone else) a hard time, I just feel it is important for folks who may be reading our posts for us to provide THEM with accurate, and at least as much as possible hopefully somewhat understandable information ....

Over on the Tivo Community Forum, it appears as though TIme Warner Cincinnati has put the ENTIRE Digital Standard Tier into SDV!

You will not be able to get ESPN HD, ESPN2 HD, TNT HD, or Discovery HD via CableCards or whatever other means you were receiving them before. Only TW Cable boxes!!!!

Confirmed. My cable card tv doesn't get 975 (ESPN-HD) any longer, and doesn't get 976 either (ESPN2-HD). Not happy. Will be a problem for Monday night football.

Any other TWC CC users out there?

Interesting that this occurs such a relatively short time after the FCC cablecard order went into effect.

I am not sure if my TV will get directly over the air. It's kind of confusing. I have seen page after page on this site about the problems people have with direct viewing and remapping and a lot of other terms that I don't understand.
Just so you know, these pages and pages of problems people are having with remapping, etc. are all related to QAM tuning which is cable, not OTA. Over-the-air broadcasts are free and use ATSC tuners. Look for the letters ATSC on your TV. Unless the TV is more than a couple years old then it probably has an ATSC tuner.

I think I prefer a direct feed from TW, D* or some other source.
OTA would be the most direct feed. Time Warner doesn't recompress the video, but they do "do stuff" to the transport streams which *shouldn't* affect things but obviously it is affecting some people as evidenced by the pages of QAM issues lately. D* takes the feed from the station (the same mpeg2 feed you get OTA) and recompresses it using mpeg4 in order to use less bandwidth. Many people say that the quality is still very good, and from a standpoint of "pixelation" or "macroblocking" issues, it probably is. However there is an irrecoverable loss of detail that occurs during this recompression.


I think you should make the choice that makes the most sense to you, but I also think you should have all the facts first.

They have 5-1,9-1,12-1, and 19-1 on the satellite. The stations send them via fiber to level 3 communications which in turn sends it to the directv uplink center. Its the exact same signal that goes out over the air and to time warner. Nothing extra is required to receive them. What is not on the satellite is the sub channels (except for the CinCW)- so for example, you will not get news5 weather plus or wcpo weathernow, nor will you get the Tube on 19-2. The receiver also has an over the air antenna input on the back that will seemlessly integrate with your guide.

In the guide, without an OTA antenna, it will show two channel 5's, 9's, 12's, 19's - one will be the sd version the other will the the hd or -1 version. If you add an OTA antenna, your guide will then show all the subchannels as well, plus the ota version of 5,9,12,19 - so you will have 3 of each.

So to sum it up.. if you went with directv and did not add an over the air antenna, you would still get Jeopardy and 9 news in hd. As to the question of quality, most state they can not see a difference in the mpeg2 versus mpeg4 stuff.. personally, I dont either, but I very rarely watch the mpeg4 stuff.

Hope that helps. Let us know if you have any more questions.

jim

If I switch from TW to D*, I understand that I will get local channels. They also say that they are also available in HD. She also said they got the local feed off of the satellite. Ididn't know that 5, 9 & 12 uplinked to satelittes. If it is not on the bird then they must have an additional antennae that picks up the locals over the air. So confusing.

If I go with D* and include HD will I for example get the local channel 9 news and Jeopardy in HD or not?

Also TW says they are negotiating for the Big Ten package but knowing them, it could be a year away. The season is starting.

With WCPO-DT launching HD news in our market you all might find this article interesting from engadget which attempts to detail what is necessary to produce local HD news (for WFTS another Scripps station):

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/08/30/what-it-takes-to-produce-an-hd-newscast/

With WCPO-DT launching HD news in our market you all might find this article interesting from engadget which attempts to detail what is necessary to produce local HD news (for WFTS another Scripps station):

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/08/30/what-it-takes-to-produce-an-hd-newscast/

Excellent link! Thanks for sharing...:)

With WCPO-DT launching HD news in our market you all might find this article interesting from engadget which attempts to detail what is necessary to produce local HD news (for WFTS another Scripps station):

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/08/30/what-it-takes-to-produce-an-hd-newscast/

I believe that WCPO and WFTS are running very similar setups. My reasons are 1) Both owned by Scripps and 2) Both went HD within a month of each other. The article says that WFTS cannot playback HD, but WCPO can (Don't Waste Your Money Segments, at least look HD, but may not be) and I think WCPO records "Wheel of Fortune" and "Jeopardy" on HDD, not on tape, but again, I may be wrong. All in all, its pretty cool to see all the equipment. I was looking through some photos on WCPO's website and it looks like they have had the HD studio cams for sometime, probably came with the move to the new studio.

Just got through talking to TW customer support. Apparently the problem is fixed for those with cable boxes. If you have a cable box and still cant get ESPN2 HD, you can either re-boot the box by unplugging the box for 5 minutes or having the CS folks send a hit to your box. The Power button re-boot does not work. I had them re-authorize (re-boot) my boxes and now I can get ESPN2 HD.

For me it wasn't that simple. I first tried unplugging it for 8 minutes and let it go through a re-boot. No luck. I then tried hitting the power button--re-boot. No luck. So I called TW service, stayed on hold for 30 minutes and he did an authorization from there and boom it was on. Very clunky way to introduce a new channel if you ask me...

For me it wasn't that simple. I first tried unplugging it for 8 minutes and let it go through a re-boot. No luck. I then tried hitting the power button--re-boot. No luck. So I called TW service, stayed on hold for 30 minutes and he did an authorization from there and boom it was on. Very clunky way to introduce a new channel if you ask me...

That's actually what they did for me also. I was told that the un-plugging would work. So much for customer support :). We haven't had a new channel for quite some time. They probably forgot how to do it.

Its the exact same signal that goes out over the air and to time warner.


Except that it it is decoded and reencoded/recompressed with MPEG4, as you mention later in your post ....


What is not on the satellite is the sub channels (except for the CinCW)- so for example, you will not get news5 weather plus or wcpo weathernow, nor will you get the Tube on 19-2.


Also not on the satellite, is you do not get many other stations that broadcast OTA HD in the area. such as 4 PBS HD stations in Dayton+Cincinnati(all with different HD programming schedules and different multicast SD "channels") as well as their SD digital multicast services, MyTV HD, And CW HD from WBDT-DT Dayton if you can receive it ....

Getting the Dayton stations (such as CBS HD, Fox HD Dayton affiliates/etc) is also a plus for various reasons, including for the times when the Dayton stations carry different NFL HD games ... Doesn't happen a lot, but for instance sometimes you might get a Steelers HD game from say, WRGT-DT Dayton when WXIX has a different game ...

Its the exact same signal that goes out over the air and to time warner.
Except that it it is decoded and reencoded/recompressed with MPEG4

I think jim tressler intended his statement to mean that it's the same content that can be seen OTA or through TWC. Sure there are differences in the processing, but I believe he was just trying to reassure jdhughes63 that he'll still see the same content.

Also not on the satellite, is you do not get many other stations that broadcast OTA HD in the area.
Those aren't available on cable either, but with an antenna connected to the H20 or HR20 he can.

I think jim tressler intended his statement to mean that it's the same content that can be seen OTA or through TWC. Sure there are differences in the processing, but I believe he was just trying to reassure jdhughes63 that he'll still see the same content.


Jim mentioned the MPEG2/MPEG4 issue in his post and I provided more details about it. That's all.


but I believe he was just trying to reassure jdhughes63 that he'll still see the same content.


And again, I provided more details concerning what is not available via HD LiL from D*, but is available OTA, some of that (not all) is available on cable as well. ....



Those aren't available on cable either, but with an antenna connected to the H20 or HR20 he can.

Of the services I mentioned WCET's and KET(WCVN-DT) digital services are available on TW cable. (such as CET HD/PBS HD channel).

thats what I ment.. what directv gets is the same as ota and time warner.. beyond that its subjective.. all good though!

I think jim tressler intended his statement to mean that it's the same content that can be seen OTA or through TWC. Sure there are differences in the processing, but I believe he was just trying to reassure jdhughes63 that he'll still see the same content.


Those aren't available on cable either, but with an antenna connected to the H20 or HR20 he can.

thats what I ment.. what directv gets is the same as ota and time warner.. beyond that its subjective.. all good though!


It's "subjective" that PBS HD (and other WCET and KET services or "channels") is available OTA and via TW, but is NOT available via D* LiL, therefore requring an OTA antenna hooked up to the D* HD receiver to receive it ???

Huh, I learn something new everday ;)

update: AGAIN, BTW, my post in response to yours had nothing to do with involving "what you meant" .... I was adding more information, that's all, I don't see how "subjective vs. Objective" has anything to do with it.

I WAS NOT saying you were wrong about anything you said ..

BTW, of course jimp2244 already detailed the issue with MPEG4 vs MPEG2 properly, and in much more detail than I did. (sorry I didn't mention that in earlier post.)

Wasn't going to mention this, as was trying to be "nice", and it didn't seem necessary given the details jimp2244 alread provided on this issue, but on further reflection of the matter ....

The stations send them via fiber to level 3 communications which in turn sends it to the directv uplink center. Its the exact same signal that goes out over the air and to time warner.


While this is correct in terms of what D* gets being "the same as OTA or the same as what the cableco gets", I think it's deceptive, and somewhat "beside the point"(except in terms of describing every detail of the entire process) in terms of involving what the consumer gets from the different delivery sources(ota, cable, D* HD LIL). Which is I expect what jdhughes is specifically interested in, what HE gets at his receiver **NOT** what D* gets at their uplink site.

As what goes out via D*/what the customer receives is *NOT* the same thing the viewer watching via cable or OTA gets, because as already mentioned, it is MPEG2 stream from the source(stations) which decoded and reencoded to MPEG4 by D*.

There is nothing subjective about it. It's going through an additional decode/reencode process at D*, It's not *possible* for the reencoded as MPEG4 feed from D* LiL to be *exactly the same*, or BETTER than the MPEG2 feed from the station or the Cableco ... Because, #1, you lose some information in the picture from the MPEG2 encoding/compression process, and you likely lose some more in the 2nd, MPEG4 encoding process ... BOTH MPEG2 and MPEG4 are lossy compression schemes, unlike for instance the compression used for "zip" files(which is lossless, you don't Loose any of the data information) ....

Now, Whether or not you can "tell the difference" between MPEG2 from the station and MPEG4 from D* LiL is a *subjective matter*, but it *would* be incorrect to say "what the consumer gets via D* LiL is the same as you get OTA or via cable from any given service ...

I am not sure if my TV will get directly over the air.


To expand a bit on jimp2244's excellent response to your questions :

Nearly all TV sets and VCR's(99.9999% of them - for instance a front projector may not have a OTA tuner in it) can receive over the air broadcasts. If you have a "RF input" on the back of your set where you could, for instance plug in coax cable(such as what is hooked up to your cable STB) to it, then you can receive some sort of OTA broadcasts.

They just need an antenna hooked up to them for OTA reception, and the menu options on the set/vcr/etc set to receive "off air" broadcasts instead of cable so it can scan and find the right channels in order to receive the OTA broadcasts. The antenna you will need to receive adequete reception may vary from a simple, inexpensive set of "rabbit ears", to a outdoor directional antenna with rotor ... Just depends upon the signal conditions at your location, and what stations you want to receive, there are lots of options available, including professional antenna installation. If you're thinking about the OTA DIY route, you may want to Go here :

www.tvfool.com and use the "signal prediction" section+punch in your address to see a prediction of signals you should be able to receive at your locaton(in the output, info will be provided to recommend what sort of antenna you may need to receive stations on the list) ....

The important question for DIGITAL/HD OTA, is, as Jimp2244 noted -- does your TV have a digital (ATSC) tuner in it, so that it can receive and display *digital*(that includes HD) Over the air broadcasts. IF you can't find that information, if you tell us the make/model of your set, we can probably dig it up for you.

If you don't have a ATSC (digital) OTA tuner in your set(note, this is usually reffered to as "tuner" but a more accurate term would be "receiver), then you would need a external OTA HD/Digital TV receiver/STB ... Unfortunetly, other than ATSC tuner cards for PC's (which can be used with HTPC's and Hooked up to your TV to send HD to it -- They work very nicely as well as OTA DVR's BTW) There are getting to be fewer and fewer models of these external digital OTA STB's that are "OTA only", as more and more sets have them "built in". So far, as already mentioned by others All DirecTV and Dish HD receivers *do* have OTA digital(HD) tuners built into those as well, but of coursse you'll need to hook an antenna(not just the dish antenna) up to those to receive the HD/digital OTA stuff you can't get via the satellite, such as PBS HD from WCET.

Up until a couple of years ago, MOST TV's could only receive analog OTA broadcasts(as well as analog cable - those are what we call "cable ready" TV's), not digital. Due to FCC mandating all sets with any tuner in them at all(including for analog OTA/analog cable) MUST have a tuner in them for digital OTA, all new sets(more or less) made after March 2007 all have the digital OTA tuners.

The FCC digital tuner(for OTA) mandate started taking effect several years ago, and was "phased in" by screen size -- The larger sets had to all have them first(I think it was sometime in 2003 or 2004 that sets manufactured after that date that were 36" or larger screen size had to have them). by March 2007, ALL sets(or DVD recorders, or VCR's or anything) manfacutured after March 2007 with *any* TV reception capability had to have them in them. A manufactuer however that for instance, makes a DVD recorder or "video monitor" without *any* tuner in it of any kind (no analog tuner) is exempt from that rule, and therefore any such device without a "tuner" in it can't receive *any* TV broadcasts on its own.

In other words, if any new device for TV watching or recording/etc has a tuner in them for analog OTA or analog cable, then they have to have a digital tuner in them too(for digital OTA). Nowadays, any set that only has a analog OTA tuner in them that's on the store shelves also has to be labled with a warning that it will not work for analog OTA broadcasts after feb 17, 2009 (when the analog OTA broadcasts are scheduled to be shut off, leaving only digital OTA/HD for OTA viewers).


but I also think you should have all the facts first.


I agree ....

I do understand that some folks are trying to "water down" the facts in a sense to make for sort, simple and understandable posts that will actually be READ and understood by all, or at least most. But unfortunetly, you can't allways "get" all the facts of importance/interest that way, or they can turn out to be inaccurate info even though they aren't intended to be so ... sometimes it takes some time, effort and learning to gather those "facts" ...

for my money - no one has ever been able to tell the differnce between the mpeg4 stuff and the ota mpeg2 stuff... no I realize that its not scientific, but none the less - most thing mpeg 4 is fine.. just my opinion though...





While this is correct in terms of what D* gets being "the same as OTA or the same as what the cableco gets", I think it's deceptive, and somewhat "beside the point"(except in terms of describing every detail of the entire process) in terms of involving what the consumer gets from the different delivery sources(ota, cable, D* HD LIL). Which is I expect what jdhughes is specifically interested in, what HE gets at his receiver **NOT** what D* gets at their uplink site.

As what goes out via D*/what the customer receives is *NOT* the same thing the viewer watching via cable or OTA gets, because as already mentioned, it is MPEG2 stream from the source(stations) which decoded and reencoded to MPEG4 by D*.

There is nothing subjective about it. It's going through an additional decode/reencode process at D*, It's not *possible* for the reencoded as MPEG4 feed from D* LiL to be *exactly the same*, or BETTER than the MPEG2 feed from the station or the Cableco ... Because, #1, you lose some information in the picture from the MPEG2 encoding/compression process, and you likely lose some more in the 2nd, MPEG4 encoding process ... BOTH MPEG2 and MPEG4 are lossy compression schemes, unlike for instance the compression used for "zip" files(which is lossless, you don't Loose any of the data information) ....

Now, Whether or not you can "tell the difference" between MPEG2 from the station and MPEG4 from D* LiL is a *subjective matter*, but it *would* be incorrect to say "what the consumer gets via D* LiL is the same as you get OTA or via cable from any given service ...

It was my impression that MPEG4 was supposed to be better than MPEG2??? Of course I couldn't honestly say either way as I don't believe I have witnessed MPEG4 as of yet...But i think MPEG2 still looks pretty good...well...as good as compressing something can look I guess.

for my money - no one has ever been able to tell the differnce between the mpeg4 stuff and the ota mpeg2 stuff... no I realize that its not scientific, but none the less - most thing mpeg 4 is fine.. just my opinion though...

Subjective, but it's all Good, Jim ;)

I trust your opinion that the reencoded to MPEG4 D* LiL HD is "fine", I've never seen it, so can't comment in that regard.

Obviously, I have no need for it anyway, My main issue with it would be 1/2(or more, probably more really) of the HD I watch comes from OTA HD sources that are NOT available via the satellite. PBS HD especially, but also that I'd only get Cincinnati market HD locals, Not Dayton(even though I'm closer to Dayton than Cincinnati). And, if I need OTA for that, then I really have no need for HD LiL from satellite in any case, and I surely wouldn't *pay* for it if I didn't need it ...

It was my impression that MPEG4 was supposed to be better than MPEG2??? Of course I couldn't honestly say either way as I don't believe I have witnessed MPEG4 as of yet...But i think MPEG2 still looks pretty good...well...as good as compressing something can look I guess.

What MPEG4 is better at is more efficent compression. For instance(as a very rough, not entirely accurate example) You may be able to get very good HD quality with MPEG4 at 8~10Mb/s or less, whearas the same "quality" from MPEG2 would take twice that amount of bandwidth (16~20mb/s).

What you may be missing is, the MPEG2 streams DirectTV are getting from the stations are encoded at the station as MPEG2. Along the lines of what Jim was saying, what they're getting It's the SAME MPEG2 encoder at the station, the SAME MPEG2 stream that we get via OTA and cable. Therefore the quality of MPEG4 as DirecTV encodes it at *can't* be better than the MPEG2 the station is sending, as the MPEG2 the station is sending is exactly WHAT directTV is using as a source *before* they reencode it as MPEG4.

Again, MPEG2 AND MPEG4 are *LOSSY* compression schemes ... DirectTV can't "bring back" what is already lost in the station's MPEG2 encoding process before they reencode it as MPEG4, so it can't be "better" from MPEG4 in this case vs what we get OTA or via cable, and furthermore reencoding with MPEG4 also looses MORE information (it's lossy too)...

Update -- keep in mind completely UNCOMPRESSED digital HD Video is in the range of 1 Gigabyte per second ... (1,000 M/bs or more...) If you could use THAT and encode it as MPEG4 with the same high compression ratio(or higher compression ratio), and compare it with a MPEG2 stream encoded as MPEG2 from the same source, then MPEG4 could very well could be "better" than the MPEG2 ... But, keep in mind Even Networks can't send Uncompressed HD video to their affiliates. Compressing HD video with MPEG2 so it "fits" within the 19.39Mb/s capacity of a 6MHZ ATSC channel (Which needs to be ~18Mb/s or less for the video stream, as we need the audio+PSIP and closed captioning data/etc/etc to fit in the station's stream as well) requires a very high compression ratio, the higher the compression ratio, the more that is lost from the original UNCOMPRESSED HD video ....

keep in mind completely UNCOMPRESSED digital HD Video is in the range of 1 Gigabyte per second ... (1,000 M/bs or more...) If you could use THAT and encode it as MPEG4 with the same high compression ratio(or higher compression ratio), and compare it with a MPEG2 stream encoded as MPEG2 from the same source, then MPEG4 could very well could be "better" than the MPEG2 ... .

Yes...I was under the impression that MPEG2 (ALL MPEG2) was to be history soon and MPEG4 was to be the new standard of compression...

I was under the impression that MPEG2 (ALL MPEG2) was to be history soon and MPEG4 was to be the new standard of compression...

Not a chance of that happening anytime soon, especially so with broadcast Digital TV ...

There may be a few, such as the USDTV boxes, or D* satellite HD receivers(have no idea whether they support MPEG4 for their Off air ATSC receivers however) -- but otherwise, AFAIK, ALL of these Millions and millions of OTA 8VSB("ATSC), or QAM digital ready receivers going in the sets support MPEG2 only ... A hardware upgrade would be required to upgrade those to MPEG4 decoding capability ... Meaning, you'd need a new set ...

FCC currently requires stations to send a MPEG2 stream, equilent in quality to their station's analog signal, Free to air. That could be 480i SD digital via MPEG2, "legally" they could do just about anything they want with the remainder of their bandwidth, although any thing they do with that that directly brings in reveunue requires a 5 or 15%(again I keep forgetting) "tax" on that revenue ... So, sending say, a HD stream at 1080i and MPEG4 wouldn't "go over" too well since virtually no receivers have the capability to receive/decode it ....

And, it's not just OTA or clear QAM .... All the MPEG2 only Cable boxes would have to be replaced with cable boxes that have MPEG4 decoding capability(which is more processing intensive than MPEG2) as well ....

so far as I am aware of currently, it's only The DBS providers have "started" a migration to MPEG4, DirecTV moreso than dish network .. Of course, they are more limited in bandwidth than cableco's are ...

Also, there are other "more efficent codecs" than MPEG2 ... In addition to MPEG4/H264 -- VC-1 is another ... For instance, I occasionally reencode MPEG2 HD material to WMV-HD format using windows media encoder +archive HD material to DVD here, as WMV-HD is more effiecent than MPEG2+I can fit more on a single DVD that way ... It looks pretty good too if done right, but of course never any better than the orginal MPEG2 source ....

And, for service providers there's the question of "when do you migrate" to a better codec? Surely there will be even more efficient codecs in the future .... why not wait until "MPEG6" or whatever ...

In other words, look how long NTSC has been around .... Maybe We won't be using MPEG2 much in 50 years, but 10~15 years from now -- A lot of It will still be around ...(DVD's are MPEG2, BTW) ......

Well I guess I was either misinformed or misunderstood. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Once I leave the 105 channel realm and go to 109-2 (which works fine) when 105-18 (KET6) goes out (off air) and I then return to 105-1 (WLWT) or ANY channel in the 105 realm, I get nothing, nadda, zip...I suspected as much.

Once I leave the 105 channel realm and go to 109-2 (which works fine) when 105-18 (KET6) goes out (off air) and I then return to 105-1 (WLWT) or ANY channel in the 105 realm, I get nothing, nadda, zip...I suspected as much.

Which says the 'drop' rather than the 'ket4 switch' is the cause.

Thanks for the info!

Confirmed. My cable card tv doesn't get 975 (ESPN-HD) any longer, and doesn't get 976 either (ESPN2-HD). Not happy. Will be a problem for Monday night football.

Any other TWC CC users out there?
Interesting that this occurs such a relatively short time after the FCC cablecard order went into effect.

I think it has more to do with D* about to add a bunch of new HD channels in the coming weeks. TW wants to get the switched video up and running so its easier for them to add HD channels. But what happens when they have 10 customers in one node that want to watch different switched channels, and they only have 5 available positions for those channels. (I just made up those numbers -- I have no idea how it is set up, how much space is allocated for switched channels.)

broadcasts.



www.tvfool.com and use the "signal prediction" section+punch in your address to see a prediction of signals you should be able to receive at your locaton(in the output, info will be provided to recommend what sort of antenna you may need to receive stations on the list) ....

...

Thanks. A great site.Also elimiated the confusion about chanels like 5.1. I can't enter 5.1 but it showed what the actual over the air channel would be

Which says the 'drop' rather than the 'ket4 switch' is the cause.

Thanks for the info!

So how can that be corrected so no problems occur? The only way I can think of is to isolate the KET channel in order to get definitive results. I also still want to know why the audio on ALL but 2 (KET 5&6) KET channels is null & void (I don't get KET audio along with the KET video)?

So I finally got the parents to chuck the CRT projection TV and get a Samsung 50" Plasma. I call Dish Network and handle the upgrade call for them. Installer comes out and according to my dad, installs a new dish on the roof and hooks up the 622 DVR. I come over and much to my dismay, the damn thing is hooked up with composite cables (mine came with component cables). Luckily for them, I had ordered them an HDMI cable and fixed that. However, they don't have 377 (FSN Ohio HD). Why? I seem to recall that it's available on one satellite and not another. I look up on the roof and the dish they have doesn't look like mine (3 "prongs" and oval). Their is round with the old 2 prong look. What's the deal? And how on earth could an installer use composite cables? I feel I should be able to call them and tell them to come out and fix why we're not getting 377.

So - I know conversation has kind of steered away from this - but is it a definite now that TW requires a set top box to receive TNT HD and Discovery HD? I've always just used my tuner with standard cable (no digital tier for me) and have received them. I'm going to be VERY disappointed if TW has taken them away and I will not be a happy customer at all. The Discovery channel was always my favorite one to watch!!! Ugh.

So I finally got the parents to chuck the CRT projection TV and get a Samsung 50" Plasma. I call Dish Network and handle the upgrade call for them. Installer comes out and according to my dad, installs a new dish on the roof and hooks up the 622 DVR. I come over and much to my dismay, the damn thing is hooked up with composite cables (mine came with component cables). Luckily for them, I had ordered them an HDMI cable and fixed that. However, they don't have 377 (FSN Ohio HD). Why? I seem to recall that it's available on one satellite and not another. I look up on the roof and the dish they have doesn't look like mine (3 "prongs" and oval). Their is round with the old 2 prong look. What's the deal? And how on earth could an installer use composite cables? I feel I should be able to call them and tell them to come out and fix why we're not getting 377.

Sounds like they installed a Dish 500 dish. Your parents need a Dish 1000 dish which can receive signals from three satellites. One is the satellite at the 129 degrees orbital position which is where FSN Ohio HD channel 377 is located. The Dish 500 doesn't pick up that orbital position. I would call Dish and complain about not getting the correct dish installed. There are several other HD channels your parents wil not be to get because they are located on 129 also.

Unfortunately, installers do not carry HDMI or component cables any more. You need to install them yourself as you have done already.

Sounds like they installed a Dish 500 dish. Your parents need a Dish 1000 dish which can receive signals from three satellites. One is the satellite at the 129 degrees orbital position which is where FSN Ohio HD channel 377 is located. The Dish 500 doesn't pick up that orbital position. I would call Dish and complain about not getting the correct dish installed. There are several other HD channels your parents wil not be to get because they are located on 129 also.

I wonder if they installed a dish 500 (for 119/110) AND another dish for the 61.5 satellite? If they didn't his parents would get very few of the HD channels. MOST of DISH's three dozen HD channels are on the 129 satellite AND duplicated on the 61.5 satellite. As noted, a few, like FSN Ohio HD are only on the 129 satellite. The bottom line is as Scott said, they need a dish for 129 if they want to see FSN Ohio in HD.

So - I know conversation has kind of steered away from this - but is it a definite now that TW requires a set top box to receive TNT HD and Discovery HD? I've always just used my tuner with standard cable (no digital tier for me) and have received them. I'm going to be VERY disappointed if TW has taken them away and I will not be a happy customer at all. The Discovery channel was always my favorite one to watch!!! Ugh.
Yes, you need a device to descramble them. Best I can figure, they did this so Basic level subscribers don't get them, as you need to get the analog / standard versions of those channels to be eligible for the digital / HD versions (possibly why they moved espn classic off analog).

Comment: Since Basic level subs have a physical trap in their line, would have been nice if they'd simply moved those HD feeds to freqs within the trap range so Standard level folk wouldn't have to deal with this crap, but then they wouldn't have been able to leverage more money from us. :(

Anyway, you don't need a digital tier, though you may have to be persistant to get a box without the 'other stuff'. I confirmed this on Thursday (see my previous post) and just to verify it could be done, I called them up Friday to actually do it (with the intention of returning the box within the 30 day grace period).

Unfortunately I got seduced by an offer I couldn't refuse - some vague 'Anniversary Special' that bumped me up to Roadrunner Turbo plus some Digital cable tier plus the HD STB for $10 less per month than the RR standard and Standard cable I had before. Price guarenteed for a year, plus some pricing clause about years 2 and 3. Haven't gotten around to hooking the box up yet (will initially go on bedroom HD set that doesn't have qam tuner) so to be honest I'm not sure what services are authorized on it. And I intend to call back next week and get the particulars of the offer in writing...

Last time I tried their Digital service (years before I had HD sets) I dropped it within a couple months because there was basically nothing of interest to me among the extra programming options. We'll see...

does anyone else think that the ATSC standard was shortsided to begin with? at only 19mb/s shouldn't it have been established higher? just curious on everyone else's thoughts

jim

Jim, I'm sure the broadcast engineers who post here could provide a better answer, but here are my thoughts :

I don't think it's a matter of being shortsighted, it's a matter of what will work well for OTA and the limits of how much can fit in a 6MHZ wide channel, as well as what would work at the time our DTV system was developed. And remember U.S. was FIRST to develop+implement Digital over the air TV ...

Keep in mind, 19.39Mb/s is the available *payload* capacity of 8VSB (the signal modulation used with the "ATSC DTV standard") ... It's isn't the "number of bits per second" that is actually *used* in a 6MHZ channel with 8VSB ... A LOT of "bits" are used for FEC ... See the "reed solomon" and "Trellis encoder" sections at below link :

http://www.broadcast.net/~sbe1/8vsb/8vsb.htm

--------------

Basically Less FEC, more payload= less robust reception (meaning it would be HARDER to receive OTA DTV than it is now) ....

With our system, the maximum payload available is "fixed" and is "static" at 19.39mb/s. Other systems in use for OTA DTV across the world have similiar maximum payload rates to ATSC. But, some can be configured to trade off payload(even less than 19mb/s available in 6MHZ channel) for more robust reception(such as for mobile reception). Some can go the other way as well(more bits/less "Reliable" reception), but at a penalty regarding how easy it is to receive OTA DTV, AND how much power it takes on the transmitting end ... Believe I've read they've been doing some tests regarding the latter in the UK (which so far is SD only DTV) to try to "add" HD to their system ...

More RF Bandwidth (such as the 7MHZ channels they have in Oz ), then we'd have more bits available .... We couldn't have anything greater than 6MHZ channels in U.S. because during the transistion, the analogs were still on the air with 6MHZ channel spacings ... For another, the gov't wants to auction off spectrum, not make MORE room for broadcast DTV/HD ...

The reason why QAM256 (or ATSC's 16VSB) has twice as much payload available via cable as ATSC 8VSB, is because the additional overhead of Trellis-coding and FEC needed by 8VSB for robust over-the-air transmission+reception isn't required for sending a signal over a wire ...

------------

Update : now, Do I think there are there a lot of things about our DTV standard which could have been "done better"? We'll sure, in hindsight one can think of all sorts of things that "might have been/would have been" better, but I don't think the max data payload rate would or could be increased, much because of any such changes. Could be wrong though, as I only know some of what is possible, currently ....

If we could have a "do over" to "make things better", that certianly would be nice, but the problem with that is(along the same lines of trying to make a transistion quickly to a more efficent codec such as MPEG4), it would mean having ANOTHER DTV transistion, and would mean everyone would need new sets(or STB's/etc) Again ... Just one "TV" transistion after 60 years of NTSC analog is/has been difficult enough, it seems ....

Did anyone watch the WEBN fireworks and is so what was your impression of the coverage? I was very disappointed. One, the coverage wasn't in HD. For such a big end of year event that draws a lot of attention I don't know why they can't carry a 1/2 event in HD. Two, forget about the fact it wasn't in HD, the camera angles, helicopter shot, zooms were horrible. The whole thing was so disjointed I almost couldn't wait till it was over.

Difficult for me to enjoy+watch fireworks in SD ..... HD on the other hand, not as good as being there, but the resolution is high enough for it to look VERY good ... They still have to "find" good shots, though. I will say the years WKRC did it in HD, I checked it quickly a couple of times and the SD feed on analog 12 looked better than it has since then as well ....

They did a excellent HD production in 2002 (on WKRC), though, I was very impressed that year, well except that "webhopper"(Internet acceleration service that took up ~4Mb/s of WKRC-Dt's bandwidth at the time) took it's toll at times ... Last time WEBN fireworks were in HD was 2003 (also on WKRC) .....

The show sucked...and I am being generous. The fireworks themselves were top notch with only a few F'ups with the ending spelled out W-E-B-N, the ending peace signs and the smiley faces fireworks being distorted or non existent. As a whole the fireworks themselves were absolutely top notch as usual.

Now the actual coverage itself just blew huge chunks. I forgot that it was on WLWT so did not properly set up my LG to be able to at least see the digital SD so I was forced to watch analog SD. That wasn't too bad though seeing as how I just cleaned the CRT lenses this afternoon as well as the lenticular screen (I swear it looks like I have a brand new TV again!) this afternoon. But the angles, the fading in and out of the helicopter shots (could the helicopter been any further away?) and just generally crappy coverage was very disappointing. I don't believe I have EVER seen the 'EBN fireworks covered so poorly out of all the times I have watched on TV.

But the ultimately let down, the one possible saving grace for the poor covereage, was WEBN's soundtrack for the show...it was without a doubt the worst soundtrack ever and couldn't have been farther away from being properly choreographed and mixed than it was this evening. I mean what the hell were they thinking with the beginning??? Total and complete garbage. Was it a new person who never did a mix before work??? It really could not have been any worse. Personally I think WEBN should have the entire show orchestrated (use a real orchestra like the Cinti Pops) in its entirety for the best in aural effects. The Rozi's already have the best of the visual effects.

I took the family out after church today to eat as an apology for not being able to go to the show (over an hour to get there, spend all day (and money) and a minimum of 3 hours to get back) because my wife and kids were upset that we were not going. After hearing the soundtrack (which is 1/2 of the show in reality) the wife said she was SO glad we didn't go after all and the kids didn't seem too upset either.

As far as the HD goes, how on earth can you show the fireworks in HD for 2 years straight and then show it in crappy SD every year there after...talk about backstepping...

Ultimately this did not bode well for Cinti Bell's first year. And 'EBN seems to be sliding downhill after tonights soundtrack was aired. What were they thinking???:rolleyes:

At least WCPO I can see a few fireworks in HD:D.

You could sure tell this was WLWT's first year covering the fireworks. I would give them a "D-". LOTS of technical glitches (the fading in and out of the helicopter shots just as an example) and, it looked to me, that they missed (wrong camera?) some of the shots. To me, it was very disappointing.

I did get an e-mail this morning from one of my friend's sons who is in the military (overseas) and he watched the show on one of the Armed Forces TV networks. While he was glad to see the show from Cincinnati he said that he thought that WLWT did a poor job (and mentioned some of the same things we did). He also mentioned that WLWT did not give enough background for their overseas audience. A lot of his friends did not understand why there was a fireworks show on Labor Day weekend and he had to keep explaining that. If WLWT does it next year (and I hope that they don't; Cincinnati Bell and WEBN needs to find another station) they need to think about who is watching the show and what they need to tell them about the area and the background of the show. The Cincinnati area was just a very small portion of the their audience. And for the Cincinnati area the show NEEDS to be in HD.

Ch 12 is streaming their version on their web site. Not the big screen but much better camera positions.http://www.local12.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoId=20000

DaveA28 or whomever -

Will someone on the Adelphia head-end do a cap and tsreader analysis of their WSTR qam feed and post the html export here? I want to compare it to what I'm getting...

nitewatchman - can you do cap/post for the OTA signal?

Thanks!

nitewatchman - can you do cap/post for the OTA signal?


Sure ... Attached is from around 5:30pm this afternoon ....

edit : of course the info in the EIT's for current programming is incorrect ... for example Jerry Lewis Telethon is currently airing, not "Maury", the usual program ....

update 8:10pm - during MyTV HD feed (Movie running SD upconvert at network - "MY TV" logo outside of 4x3 area) - Everything except AC-3 audio coding now at DD 5.1 is the same as during the earlier TSreader HTML export.

The 0x0035 "unknown usage" PID would "normally" be a 2nd audio stream .... I have no idea what they are using it for(my receiver's don't seem to recognize a 2nd alternate audio stream available from them), but the bandwidth usage seems odd for an audio stream. Do note that I am getting the EIA708 captions+everything that I can tell except some of the programming info/descriptionss the EIT's seems to be "correct" (currently a movie from MyTV, the EIT's says "IFL battleground" ... Oh, 0x0035 PID info doesn't show up anywhere in the GUI "tree" list .....

I wonder if they installed a dish 500 (for 119/110) AND another dish for the 61.5 satellite? If they didn't his parents would get very few of the HD channels. MOST of DISH's three dozen HD channels are on the 129 satellite AND duplicated on the 61.5 satellite. As noted, a few, like FSN Ohio HD are only on the 129 satellite. The bottom line is as Scott said, they need a dish for 129 if they want to see FSN Ohio in HD.

There is in fact a Dish 500 on the roof. I guess that's the new one. There's also another one up there as well but I don't know what that one is for. My parents are from the middle east and they pick up some arabic stations so maybe that's what it's for. But my dad is a Reds fan and there's no reason why we shouldn't have Fox Cincinnati HD as well. Hopefully they don't think they're going to be able to charge us to put the Dish 1000 up there, but it did look like most of my channels were there except for 377.

Unfortunately, installers do not carry HDMI or component cables any more. You need to install them yourself as you have done already.

My 622 came with component cables a few months ago in the box. I have since replaced them with HDMI. I didn't find these in the box for my parents 622 though. Maybe Dish is trimming cost.

There is in fact a Dish 500 on the roof. I guess that's the new one. There's also another one up there as well but I don't know what that one is for. My parents are from the middle east and they pick up some arabic stations so maybe that's what it's for. But my dad is a Reds fan and there's no reason why we shouldn't have Fox Cincinnati HD as well. Hopefully they don't think they're going to be able to charge us to put the Dish 1000 up there, but it did look like most of my channels were there except for 377.

The other dish must be for the 61.5 satellite because that is where the HD channels are and where (at least for now) the arabic channels are. I would give DISH a call and see if you can get a free upgrade dish for the 129 satellite (a dish 1000 in place of the dish500). They may need a new switch too (to get all four satellite locations).

Thanks, Bill. On a side note, just checked out HD Sports Guide and the 9/16 Bengals game against Cleveland is not listed as one of the CBS HD games. Hopefully, it's just too early!

DaveA28 or whomever -

Will someone on the Adelphia head-end do a cap and tsreader analysis of their WSTR qam feed and post the html export here? I want to compare it to what I'm getting...

nitewatchman - can you do cap/post for the OTA signal?

Thanks!

This is from the Adelphia Amelia HE for channel 121 which is where WSTR was placed. It just has the PAT, PMT, audio and video. No PSIP on 1ff8 at all. This is from some linux utilities; I don't have a tuner in a windows box.

This is from the Adelphia Amelia HE for channel 121 which is where WSTR was placed. It just has the PAT, PMT, audio and video. No PSIP on 1ff8 at all. This is from some linux utilities; I don't have a tuner in a windows box.

Thanks. If your linux box can save transport stream to file, then analyze ts file on windows box...?

Thanks, Bill. On a side note, just checked out HD Sports Guide and the 9/16 Bengals game against Cleveland is not listed as one of the CBS HD games. Hopefully, it's just too early!

CBS already announced that the game won't be in HD.

We will get a total of 7 NFL games this week, all in HD! OTA-only viewers will get 6 games (will not get game 2 of ESPN Monday Night Doubleheader). Cable-only viewers will get 7 games.

Thursday:

8:30 NBC (5 WLWT, 2 WDTN) – New Orleans @ Indianapolis
Al Michaels, John Madden


Sunday:

1pm FOX (19 WXIX, 45 WRGT) Green Bay @ Philadelphia
Kenny Albert, Daryl Johnson, Tony Siragusa

1pm CBS (7 WHIO, WKRC) Pittsburgh @ Cleveland
Kevin Harlan, Rich Gannon

4pm FOX (19 WXIX, 45 WRGT) Chicago @ San Diego
Joe Buck, Troy Aikman

8:15 NBC (5 WLWT, 2 WDTN) – New York @ Dallas
Al Michaels, John Madden


Monday:

7pm ESPN (12 WKRC) – Baltimore @ Cincinnati
Mike Tirico, Ron Jaworski, Tony Kornheiser

+10pm ESPN – Arizona @ San Francisco
Mike Greenberg, Mike Golic


+Not available OTA

UPDATE: It is starting to look like WKRC will be carrying Pittsburgh at Cleveland, not Miami at Washington as originally posted.

Keep up the good work! Thanks for taking the time to break down the scheduling for our specific market!

CBS already announced that the game won't be in HD.Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! :mad:

BTW, This is a link to nationwide NFL game coverage maps, will be update throughout the year:

http://www.the506.com/nflmaps/

(I wonder why the 1pm CBS game is Miami/Washington...yawn)
<Edit> Browns/Steelers Ipm Sunday to be shown on WKRC, see http://the506.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1188922843

Why is the Cincy market getting Miami at Wash when the Browns/Steelers game clearly has more local interest?

Keep up the good work! Thanks for taking the time to break down the scheduling for our specific market!
You're welcome. I've been doing this every week for the last couple years so I figured I might as well post it so others can benefit. You can always get the info from www.the506.com/nflmaps but I like to have the games that I can watch all on one list.

BTW, This is a link to nationwide NFL game coverage maps, will be update throughout the year:

http://www.the506.com/nflmaps/

(I wonder why the 1pm CBS game is Miami/Washington...yawn)
<Edit> Browns/Steelers Ipm Sunday to be shown on WKRC, see http://the506.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1188922843

Why is the Cincy market getting Miami at Wash when the Browns/Steelers game clearly has more local interest?
I'd much rather have the Miami at Washington game in Cincinnati so I get both games :-)

That said it's starting to look like WKRC will carry Cleveland at Pittsburgh. I am editing my post above to reflect that.

HD Antennas:


My simple question is this: Are there digital antennas and analog antennas or are they all pretty much just big pieces of aluminum that capture signals which are decoded by the tuner?

I thought you had to have an HD antenna in order to pull in digital stations but a friend of mine tells me he hooked up a new TV for his elderly father (who lives in Evendale) to his existing rooftop antenna that he's had for ages and now he's getting all kinds of digital stations.

I thought I heard 6 games per week for CBS. I use this site and works pretty good for Bengals HD.

http://www.sportsline.com/cbssports/schedules/page/nfl

You don't need a special antenna for HD. Most of it is broadcast on the UHF band. Ch. 9 is on VHF.

Anyone with QAM, TWC in Cincy has HBO-East on again on 119-333. I think it's HBO-East, they have a Superman movie on right now.

HD Antennas:


My simple question is this: Are there digital antennas and analog antennas or are they all pretty much just big pieces of aluminum that capture signals which are decoded by the tuner?

I thought you had to have an HD antenna in order to pull in digital stations but a friend of mine tells me he hooked up a new TV for his elderly father (who lives in Evendale) to his existing rooftop antenna that he's had for ages and now he's getting all kinds of digital stations.

Yes, your friend is correct. To put it simply, there is no such thing as an "HD antenna," it's only marketing. Your existing antenna will work fine. You'll most likely want a VHF/UHF combo in this market, as we have digital channels in both bands. Check the first page of this thread for a list of local stations and the actual channels they broadcast on.

I thought I heard 6 games per week for CBS. I use this site and works pretty good for Bengals HD.

http://www.sportsline.com/cbssports/schedules/page/nfl
6 games per week for CBS is correct, but some weeks it's only 5. The Bengals at Browns game is unfortunately during a week when they're only doing 5.

You don't need a special antenna for HD. Most of it is broadcast on the UHF band. Ch. 9 is on VHF

I have been using my HDTV on TW. Today In tried for the first time to get OTA. With an indoor antenna and several false starts I managed to get all the Cincinnati and Dayton stations except for Channel 9.
Do they not produce an OTA signal?

I have been using my HDTV on TW. Today In tried for the first time to get OTA. With an indoor antenna and several false starts I managed to get all the Cincinnati and Dayton stations except for Channel 9.
Do they not produce an OTA signal?

Yes they do. They are hard to get in a lot of areas. Hopefully they'll start using repeaters or something. Even here in Cincinnati it's sometimes easier to get some Dayton channels then Ch. 9.

I have TWC with two HD DVR's. I have been trying to add WSTR-HD and ESPN2-HD to my "Favorites" on my remote and cannot get the channels to stay there. Anyone else have this issue? Thanks.

HD Antennas:


My simple question is this: Are there digital antennas and analog antennas or are they all pretty much just big pieces of aluminum that capture signals which are decoded by the tuner?

I thought you had to have an HD antenna in order to pull in digital stations but a friend of mine tells me he hooked up a new TV for his elderly father (who lives in Evendale) to his existing rooftop antenna that he's had for ages and now he's getting all kinds of digital stations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWQhlmJTMzw

Yes they do. They are hard to get in a lot of areas. Hopefully they'll start using repeaters or something. Even here in Cincinnati it's sometimes easier to get some Dayton channels then Ch. 9.

Standing in the middle of the room and holding a small rabbit ear above my head it actually scanned in With that many channels on a small set of rabbit ears I think I will invest in an inexpensive outdoor antenna. It looks like I don't need a giant outdoor antenna with a motor since I get really good indoor recption on many channels. It will be a good addition to Warner which doesn't get Dayton and also a back up for cable outages.

I think we all agree that any addition to TW is a good thing, since they really don't give you squat compared to Satellite.

The other dish must be for the 61.5 satellite because that is where the HD channels are and where (at least for now) the arabic channels are. I would give DISH a call and see if you can get a free upgrade dish for the 129 satellite (a dish 1000 in place of the dish500). They may need a new switch too (to get all four satellite locations).

I gave them a call today and they're coming out next week to replace the Dish 500 with a Dish 1000. They asked what could be missing if we had a 61.5 Dish and when I told them Fox Cincinnati HD, they said "Oh yeah, forgot about that one."

No charge for this one, as it should be.

I gave them a call today and they're coming out next week to replace the Dish 500 with a Dish 1000. They asked what could be missing if we had a 61.5 Dish and when I told them Fox Cincinnati HD, they said "Oh yeah, forgot about that one."

No charge for this one, as it should be.

Great to hear!

Yes they do. They are hard to get in a lot of areas. Hopefully they'll start using repeaters or something. Even here in Cincinnati it's sometimes easier to get some Dayton channels then Ch. 9.

Why are Dayton channels easier to receive from Loveland-Milford. They seem farther away than Cincinnati channels. I can't get Cincy PBS or Channel 9 but get all the Dayton Channels although 22 is a little iffy.

The online antenna site says Ch 9 is stronger than all the Dayton channels.

I have TWC with two HD DVR's. I have been trying to add WSTR-HD and ESPN2-HD to my "Favorites" on my remote and cannot get the channels to stay there. Anyone else have this issue? Thanks.

I've been having the same problem; ESPNU is the same way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWQhlmJTMzw

Just built one of these and am I ever impressed!:D 30 channels in my crappy location with the antenna on the floor!:D No channel 9 though.:( Will work on that tomorrow when I raise the antenna outside...Only cost was for the matching transformer that I couldn't find in all my cable parts I have in the garage...

Why are Dayton channels easier to receive from Loveland-Milford. They seem farther away than Cincinnati channels. I can't get Cincy PBS or Channel 9 but get all the Dayton Channels although 22 is a little iffy.

The online antenna site says Ch 9 is stronger than all the Dayton channels.

The reason channel 9 and soon to be 12, as it will move from 31, is they send out there signal on a VHF(Very High Frequency) vs. other Cincinnati-Dayton stations that operate on UHF(Ultra High Frequency). This basically means for the viewer is a larger antenna is needed. Because the VHF signal is at a lower frequency, it will need larger elements to receive the signal correctly, which for channel 10 should be around 30". It also gives the station more bang for the buck as it is less costly to send out a VHF signal because it does not require the same amount of power for the same coverage area. So to get VHF signals, simply upgrade to a better antenna, it is very simple and will certainly increase the strength of all your signals.

Also, Folks need to keep in mind *Many* factors can effect OTA reception -- which can be and often are *very* specific to any given receive location .....

For instance Just ONE of the possible factors regarding why stations farther away(but in a different direction/etc) can be easier to receive than nearer stations(with stronger signals) = Multipath your receiver can't correct, which can sometimes be more problematical the stronger the signal is+the closer to the towers you are .... Multipath is just what it sounds like ... portions of the desired signal arriving at your antenna via different "paths" ... some of the paths are longer than others, therefore portions of the signal arrive at your antenna at slightly different times .... One portion of signal could be bouncing off a car in your driveway, and another portion of it could be reflecting off a nearby water tower, for instance ..... This is seen as "ghosts" on a analog TV signal, hence why you'll often see it referred to as "ghosting" ...

And Just ONE of the possible factors regarding why a VHF station may be more difficult to receive than a UHF station --(and especially so with indoor antennas), ASSUMING that is you're actually using an antenna designed for VHF reception = Interference created on VHF(moreso than UHF) by various household appliances INCLUDING possibly your TV itself! ... There are several "interference" related issues that are specifically a "VHF thing" or are more problematical on VHF vs. UHF, just as there are issues that sometimes make UHF stations "harder" to receive than VHF (such as terrain obstruction issues, or that there is more loss in Coax in higher frequencies vs. lower frequencies) ....

If you're having problems receiving one station or another, It's good to hear your report, especially if you provide detail on the equipment your using and you antenna installation(outdoor vs indoor/etc) -- but plese be VERY careful about drawing any conclusions!

So, unless you actually know there is a problem(such as a station engineer telling you they're having issues) Please *don't* post that there's something wrong with the stations signal! Just because 5 or 10 or 50 people have "problems" receiving this or that station and report about it here doesn't necessarily mean there's anything wrong at the station!

--------------------

Update:

All sorts of useful information on OTA reception and antennas and how to install them can be found in Hardware area at AVSForum (including the "sticky" antenna+OTA FAQ threads), as well as at the following links :

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennadex.html

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWQhlmJTMzw

Keep in mind that this is a bow-tie style UHF antenna. It is not designed for VHF (channels 2-13) which currently includes WCPO-DT which broadcasts on channel 10, and will soon (starting February 2009) include WKRC-DT which will be switching from their current channel 31 to channel 12 which will be freed up when they turn off the analog broadcast.

That is not to say that you can't get WCPO-DT or will not be able to get WKRC-DT, just that the antenna is not designed for them. Of course it can't hurt to try this, as it's not like it's going to cost much money. It probably will work for many people; I just wanted to point this out in case anyone tries it and has trouble with the VHF channels.

Some time back I'd seen some info on a new antennacraft VHF-HI/UHF combo design in one of the antenna threads ... I don't know where anyone can get one, but I wonder if we'll see more of those with most full service DTV broadcasting on VHF-HI (ch 7-13) and UHF, and few full service stations on Lo-VHF 2-6(54~88MHZ) .... Whether or not we'll see many "new" stations, or LP's on 2-6 is hard to say, but few full service stations decided to have their digital stations on 2-6 (37 in the entire U.S. - WDKY-DT 4 Lexington being the closest one to us -- next closest would be WLMB-DT 5 Toledo - There is a LP station in our area which has filed an application for DTV station on channel 6 transmitting from just South of Oxford -- Sort of doubt that one will ever get approved or on the air though -- we'll see) because of various inteference issues(man made and natural) that plague those range of frequencies ....

The biggest "parts" of VHF/UHF combos which cover ch 2-13/FM and UHF are the elements for ch 2-6 ... a 1/2 wavelength dipole on ch 2 is 8.5 feet long, and only 32" long on channel 7 .... I can't imagine why, but some folks seem a bit concerned if their antenna is 8~9' wide ....

I know a lot of folks want the "simplicity" of a single antenna VHF/UHF combo antenna solution, but Of course, one who is not interested/does not need lo-VHF TV reception can get better performance out of "smaller" antennas on UHF and VHF-HI(174~216MHZ - ch 7-13) by using seperate hi-VHF antenna(Such as Winegard YA-1713) and UHF antenna(many choices here, some of the highest performance antennas which are larger antennas than a YA-1713 - 2,4,8 bay bowties, all sorts of Yagi's+corner reflector combinations/etc/etc) .....

"Rabbit ears" or a homemade VHF folded dipole cut for channel 10 made out of twinlead can be effective VHF antennas(but are no substitue for a directional hi-gain antenna -- One could build a HI-VHF hi-gain Yagi themselves for that matter) :

http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html

What one does need when using seperate VHF/UHF antennas is a VHF/UHF joiner, such as CM#0549 ..... Or, in some cases a preamp with seperate VHF/UHF antenna inputs ...

Update: Another possible option would be a CM4228 -- the only "UHF only" antenna I'm aware of that actually has significant gain on VHF hi, and especially channel 10. It, however is not "designed" for VHF, where it's directivity is relatively poor on VHF, and it performs very differently on one HI-VHF channel vs another. For example, it's signal gain on channel 10 should be about 8dbd, but on channel 12, it's gain should be about -8dbd (worse than "rabbit ears"). See the "using a UHF antenna for VHF" section at bottom of this page (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html) , as well as the detailed info on CM4228 here (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html).

All that being said, I do suspect many folks would acheive good results with the CM4228, especially mounted outdoors for WCPO-DT and perhaps for WKRC-DT after Feb 17, 2009 when they move to 12, although probably much less so on 12. In fact, I believe I've seen reports from Folks in Dayton area receiving WCPO-DT currently with CM4228's. Although, another issue with it for many folks is that it is quite large+heavy as TV antennas go, especially regarding wind/ice loading considerations and use with light duty rotors. It's heavier than most VHF/UHF combo antennas + because of it's design easily can become a "block of ice"/sail in the wind for instance ....

Some time back I'd seen some info on a new antennacraft VHF-HI/UHF combo design in one of the antenna threads ...

I think I found it. It's the Antennacraft HBU22 (http://www.antennacraft.net/HBU22.htm). It's much lighter than the Channel Master 4228 (the shipping weight is listed at 5.6 pounds) and is quite compact compared its low-VHF cousins, so wind and ice won't be as much as a factor. However, its (average, I assume) gain over high-VHF is listed as 4.1 dB and over UHF is 7.3 dB. I'd like to see how it stacks up against the other antennas on the HDTV Primer antenna comparison page (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html).

but I put the homemade hanger antenna up in the air today on my roof...Ch 9 comes in wonderfully!;) But my only main objective was to be able to get NBC for the Colts/Saints season opener tomorrow night (remmeber my wife gave me an ultimatum!:eek::D) and I get both Dayton Ch 2 as well as Cinti Ch 5 along with Cinti Ch 9 & 12, 19 & 48 but no 64 and Dayton 2 & 7 as well as 45...Ch 22 comes and goes and of course i get all the religious stations no matter how I have the antenna ;).

But the real reason for this post is I also get Oxford Ch 14 PBS station and I discovered something...Ch 14 drops 2 of their subchannels to broadcast their HD channel the same as Ch 16 (KET) does. I wonder if that (Ch 14) is on any cable system in QAM and if it messes with any other channel like the KET switch messes with WLWT???

As I state in the title, it probably doesn't mean anything but I thought it was interesting.

Think I may test that Antennacraft antenna to see if it will pull in all stations without a roter...

WCET has finally fixed the Audio on ITV Cable only QAM 101-16

But the real reason for this post is I also get Oxford Ch 14 PBS station and I discovered something...Ch 14 drops 2 of their subchannels to broadcast their HD channel the same as Ch 16 (KET) does. I wonder if that (Ch 14) is on any cable system in QAM and if it messes with any other channel like the KET switch messes with WLWT???


fyi - ch 14 dtv transmits off the wxix tower, not out of oxford

fyi - ch 14 dtv transmits off the wxix tower, not out of oxford

Regardless of where the tower is, I wonder if Ch 14's method of switching over is the same as KET's method of switching over. That was my point to see if any differences in switching over existed.

Regardless of where the tower is, I wonder if Ch 14's method of switching over is the same as KET's method of switching over. That was my point to see if any differences in switching over existed.

WPTO-DT does not switch from 480i to 1080i on their HD channel. It is always HD and I believe it is always active, just not showing anything during the off-hours which frees up bandwidth for the SD channels. Those SD channels I believe are still "active" during prime time when HD content is showing on the HD channel, but they aren't showing anything which in turn frees up bandwidth for the HD channel.

In other words, what I believe to be true (and can't confirm without checking with TSReader) is that WPTO-DT doesn't "change" or "switch" anything; instead they just allocate bandwidth/content between the different channels.

Decided to confirm with TSReader. See attached zip file for an html document that will show the output from TSReader. If you'll notice, even now at 10:30am, program 7 (14HD) channel is still getting over 3Mbps even though the channel is blank. To know for sure I'll have to run another test after the HD is up, but as I said I don't believe they are changing anything other than bandwidth allocations.

WCET has finally fixed the Audio on ITV Cable only QAM 101-16

Confirmed. The AC3 streams are now using 48K sample rate rather than 32K.

Attached: old and new twc 101 caps

I finally took the plunge and switched to Dish from TWC, and was wondering if I could ask a fairly basic Q: I live on the 3rd floor of a condo and obviously need to get my local HD OTA. Would an indoor antenna likley suffice? I live in Fairfield about a mile south of Jungle Jim's.

I'm only asking for some general thoughts/reactions as to whether this is possible or not-nothing too in depth.

Thanks, Bryan

I finally took the plunge and switched to Dish from TWC, and was wondering if I could ask a fairly basic Q: I live on the 3rd floor of a condo and obviously need to get my local HD OTA. Would an indoor antenna likley suffice? I live in Fairfield about a mile south of Jungle Jim's.

Sounds like we're not to far from each other. The answer depends on where you are... In my case I'm on the north side of a hill so Cincy OTA is a problem, but a UHF only antenna (google 'Silver Sensor') pointed northward brings in all the Dayton station just great.

Does anyone know off-hand how many of the cable channels carried are Time Warner owned and/or affiliated?

To the best of my knowledge (which means little), TW does not 'own' any of the channels they carry. Why do you ask?

Does anyone know off-hand how many of the cable channels carried are Time Warner owned and/or affiliated?

Time Warner (parent company of Time Warner Cable) owns all the Turner Networks(TBS, TNT, CNN, Court TV, Cartoon Network, TCM), Home Box Office(HBO and Cinemax) and The CW. So actually they do control some powerful networks.

No kiddin??? When did that deal go down and where was I??? LOL...

Tuner Broadcasting in 1996.
HBO was part of Time Inc., which merged with Warner Communications in 1989.
Time Warner and CBS partnered last year to form The CbsWarner.

Tuner Broadcasting in 1996.
HBO was part of Time Inc., which merged with Warner Communications in 1989.
Time Warner and CBS partnered last year to form The CW.

I thought the CW was a merge between Warner and Universal???:confused:

oops - I just realized I posted my question here rather than the thread I intended. But I got my answer, so that's cool.

As I understand it, the majority of the cable channels are owned by three or four parent companies; Viacom, G.E., and Disney come to mind. I thought Time Warner had more than that...

thanks...

Just in case anyone missed it -- those of you with E* subscriptions (to AT100 and higher) can now watch Big Ten Network if you desire. Was turned on this afternoon. Channel 439, with 440-443 for as alternates for overflow, for Saturday's games. Also, two games will be broadcast in HD on channel 9467 on Saturday. Next week an HD simulcast channel of BTN will be added as well.

Not sure who all (if any) were looking forward to this on E* (I thought it would not happen for a LONG time, if ever), but it's good news for those who wanted it! :)

Good to hear E* has jumped on board. There are several reports saying E* won't have the overflow channels, are you saying you are seeing the overflow channels in the guide?

There are several reports saying E* won't have the overflow channels, are you saying you are seeing the overflow channels in the guide?

Yes, and they are labeled "Big Ten Alternate", channels 440, 441, 442, 443.

I think I found it. It's the Antennacraft HBU22 (http://www.antennacraft.net/HBU22.htm).

Yep. Looks like it's performance on Hi-VHF+UHF should be similar to small/medium sized VHF/UHF combos such as RS VU90 or CM3016, just without the Lo-VHF/FM elements, or the boom space needed for them.


but as I said I don't believe they are changing anything other than bandwidth allocations


They don't -- All 10 (16.2~16.6 or 14.2~14.6 via VCT remapping) of ThinkTV's WPTO-DT and WPTD-DT program services are there all the time, just as "barker channels"(but blank except for logos) when the services are not active. x-4 and x-5 SD services when "blank" at night are getting allocated about 1.5Mb/s or so total(for the video+ audio streams) ... The video on those goes down to about 300Kb/s, the bandwidth for the audio streams remains about the same(even though there's no audio on them when they aren't active) ....

FWIW, Believe we also covered this to some extent not too long back when discussing Plughplover+Splicer010 Clear QAM tuning issues with their receivers and TW's WLWT-DT/WCVN-DT Mux ...


and I get both Dayton Ch 2 as well as Cinti Ch 5 along with Cinti Ch 9 & 12, 19 & 48 but no 64 and Dayton 2 & 7 as well as 45...Ch 22 comes and goes and of course i get all the religious stations no matter how I have the antenna


FYI, Of the 6 Dayton digital stations, Dayton CW HD station WBDT-DT 18 (remaps to 26-1) is probably the most difficult to receive from Cincinnati due to there being a significant null in their transmit antenna pattern towards the South(and towards Co-channel station WLEX 18 analog, Lexington, KY). This is probably exacerbated a bit by their power level, 35KW ERP, the maximum FCC currently allows them to operate at.(which becomes about 1.5KW~3 KW ERP or so squirted to the south do to the null in their directional antenna pattern)

You'll currently get 15 digital stations(14 of those have HD currently when available), and currently 40 digital "subchannels" total if you get all of the Cincinnati+Dayton area digital stations.


Think I may test that Antennacraft antenna to see if it will pull in all stations without a roter...


For best results in most cases, aim directional antenna at transmitting location. The more directivity an antenna has, the more gain it has in direction it is aimed, and the more it rejects signals, multipath and interference coming in from directions it's not aimed -- That(directional receive antenna) is almost allways a good thing.


Time Warner and CBS partnered last year to form The CbsWarner.


Yep ...


Yes, and they are labeled "Big Ten Alternate", channels 440, 441, 442, 443.


Which along with the OSU game on 439, all currently have games listed on them tomorrow at noon, Including a MU game (BTW, Last's week's OSU game is currently airing on 439) ... I didn't check to see if any of them tomorrow aren't available locally ...

OT I think, but since it's already being discussed ....

I finally took the plunge and switched to Dish from TWC, and was wondering if I could ask a fairly basic Q: I live on the 3rd floor of a condo and obviously need to get my local HD OTA. Would an indoor antenna likley suffice? I live in Fairfield about a mile south of Jungle Jim's.

I'm only asking for some general thoughts/reactions as to whether this is possible or not-nothing too in depth.

Thanks, Bryan

Terk HDTVa should be all you need on a 3rd floor. I live in Mason and pick up everything in Cincy and Dayton with it. I got one for my parents as well and they pick up all the Cincy stations with it. It just sits behind their LDC about thigh high and you can't even see it. 35 bucks on amazon.com

Terk HDTVa should be all you need on a 3rd floor. I live in Mason and pick up everything in Cincy and Dayton with it. I got one for my parents as well and they pick up all the Cincy stations with it. It just sits behind their LDC about thigh high and you can't even see it. 35 bucks on amazon.com

Do you have any reception issues with Ch. 9-1 or 9-2? (WCPO)

Here are some questions I'm hoping someone can answer. Someone, (I think on this thread) recently posted that if a show is not wide-screen than it's not H.D. But, when watching some shows, not being broadcast in wide-screen, such as the local news (other than WCPO), if I push the info button on my remote the on-screen display will inform me the show is 1080i, or 720p and 4:3. When this happens the picture usually looks pretty good too. I thought all 1080i & 720p was H.D.

Are all 1080i & 720p shows H.D.?
Are these shows really being broadcast in 1080i & 720p?
If they are, then is it that much harder to put it in wide-screen too?
This has happened OTA & I think on TWC too.

The simple answer is the networks (OTA and cable/sat) will provide their channel in one format (1080i/720p). If the source material is 4:3 480i, then it is converted to their primary transmission format (1080i/720p). So it is pretty easy to say anything with pillars isn't a true HD broadcast (but of course there are exceptions). Also, not all 16:9 broadcasts are HD take WHIO news and Fox's SYTYCD.

Hopefully that clears things up.

What's the deal with Dish Network and NFL Network today? It just says dish HDTV on the screen with some music.

What's the deal with Dish Network and NFL Network today? It just says dish HDTV on the screen with some music.

I hear A&E HD, History HD, and a few others are out also. Rumor has it there was a fire at some uplink center.

http://www.satelliteguys.us/dish-network-forum/106723-hd-channels-118-120-154-off-air.html

I wonder if Dish is moving things around right now in order to get B10NetworkHD up and running full time.

The rumor is about A&E and History HD and a fire at their uplink center, that wouldn't make sense for NFL HD.

Is tonights Bengals game on local HD. (channel 9) or is the HD version only on ESPN?
My guide on my D* box doesn't show the local broadcast as HD.

Edit... doesn't really matter, I'll be at the game, but I plan on recording it for my family to watch.

Is tonights Bengals game on local HD. (channel 9) or is the HD version only on ESPN?
My guide on my D* box doesn't show the local broadcast as HD.

Edit... doesn't really matter, I'll be at the game, but I plan on recording it for my family to watch.

It will be on WKRC (Ch 12), not channel 9. Unless something has changed, WKRC-DT will be showing the ESPN-HD feed, so yes, local HD.

I guess it was 12 not 9 I saw it on, but my guide data did not indicate HD. For OTA or MP4 channel.

It will be on WKRC (Ch 12), not channel 9. Unless something has changed, WKRC-DT will be showing the ESPN-HD feed, so yes, local HD.


WKRC web site TV listing does not indicate HD

Is the game on @ 7:30???

Is the game on @ 7:30???

Kickoff at 7:00pm.

WKRC web site TV listing does not indicate HD

True, but those "HD indicators" are often wrong. All indications from WKRC have been that they will carry ESPN's HD feed, just like last year's Monday night game, and the preseason Monday night game this year.

I wonder if Dish is moving things around right now in order to get B10NetworkHD up and running full time.

The rumor is about A&E and History HD and a fire at their uplink center, that wouldn't make sense for NFL HD.

Looks like Dish has confirmed a fire is the culprit.

http://www.satelliteguys.us/dish-network-forum/106760-statement-dish-e-hd-history-hd-nfl-hd.html

I took the next step to getting rid of cable! I got an antenna, pretty good sized. It dwarfs my next door neighbor's, and his is decent sized! I wouldn't have bought if I had known how large it was, but that's alright. I got a good deal on it. It's a philips 36 element UHF/VHF antenna. On my digital TV tuner card with Vista home, HD/Digital comes in like a dream! I have it amplified and split to my analog TV's too... and there's the issue.
Whereas my digital picks up 5.x, 7.x (somewhat, it's pointed toward cincy with no rotator), 9.x, 12.x, 14.x, 16.x, 19.x, 22.x, 43.x, 48.x, 54.x, 64.x... my other TV's setup as analog only get 5, 9, and 12. Those three come in like a dream, but then 7 comes in barely, and I get nothing but snow from 19, 48, and 64. what's going on?

Some time back I'd seen some info on a new antennacraft VHF-HI/UHF combo design in one of the antenna threads ... I don't know where anyone can get one, but I wonder if we'll see more of those with most full service DTV broadcasting on VHF-HI (ch 7-13) and UHF, and few full service stations on Lo-VHF 2-6(54~88MHZ) .... Whether or not we'll see many "new" stations, or LP's on 2-6 is hard to say, but few full service stations decided to have their digital stations on 2-6 (37 in the entire U.S. - WDKY-DT 4 Lexington being the closest one to us -- next closest would be WLMB-DT 5 Toledo - There is a LP station in our area which has filed an application for DTV station on channel 6 transmitting from just South of Oxford -- Sort of doubt that one will ever get approved or on the air though -- we'll see) because of various inteference issues(man made and natural) that plague those range of frequencies ....

The biggest "parts" of VHF/UHF combos which cover ch 2-13/FM and UHF are the elements for ch 2-6 ... a 1/2 wavelength dipole on ch 2 is 8.5 feet long, and only 32" long on channel 7 .... I can't imagine why, but some folks seem a bit concerned if their antenna is 8~9' wide ....

I know a lot of folks want the "simplicity" of a single antenna VHF/UHF combo antenna solution, but Of course, one who is not interested/does not need lo-VHF TV reception can get better performance out of "smaller" antennas on UHF and VHF-HI(174~216MHZ - ch 7-13) by using seperate hi-VHF antenna(Such as Winegard YA-1713) and UHF antenna(many choices here, some of the highest performance antennas which are larger antennas than a YA-1713 - 2,4,8 bay bowties, all sorts of Yagi's+corner reflector combinations/etc/etc) .....

"Rabbit ears" or a homemade VHF folded dipole cut for channel 10 made out of twinlead can be effective VHF antennas(but are no substitue for a directional hi-gain antenna -- One could build a HI-VHF hi-gain Yagi themselves for that matter) :

http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html

What one does need when using seperate VHF/UHF antennas is a VHF/UHF joiner, such as CM#0549 ..... Or, in some cases a preamp with seperate VHF/UHF antenna inputs ...

Update: Another possible option would be a CM4228 -- the only "UHF only" antenna I'm aware of that actually has significant gain on VHF hi, and especially channel 10. It, however is not "designed" for VHF, where it's directivity is relatively poor on VHF, and it performs very differently on one HI-VHF channel vs another. For example, it's signal gain on channel 10 should be about 8dbd, but on channel 12, it's gain should be about -8dbd (worse than "rabbit ears"). See the "using a UHF antenna for VHF" section at bottom of this page (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html) , as well as the detailed info on CM4228 here (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html).

All that being said, I do suspect many folks would acheive good results with the CM4228, especially mounted outdoors for WCPO-DT and perhaps for WKRC-DT after Feb 17, 2009 when they move to 12, although probably much less so on 12. In fact, I believe I've seen reports from Folks in Dayton area receiving WCPO-DT currently with CM4228's. Although, another issue with it for many folks is that it is quite large+heavy as TV antennas go, especially regarding wind/ice loading considerations and use with light duty rotors. It's heavier than most VHF/UHF combo antennas + because of it's design easily can become a "block of ice"/sail in the wind for instance ....


I use the Radioshack V-190 that comes in 2 pieces. The back piece is for channels 2-6 only so I just tossed it and only use the front half.

Haven't been around much lately, but did something happen to WXIXs signal? Since nothing new has been broadcast since spring, I had not tried tuning in via antenna for a while. I remember using 29.3 to pick it up, but now I get now signal. NBC (only a mile closer by antennaweb) comes in fine.

Haven't been around much lately, but did something happen to WXIXs signal? Since nothing new has been broadcast since spring, I had not tried tuning in via antenna for a while. I remember using 29.3 to pick it up, but now I get now signal. NBC (only a mile closer by antennaweb) comes in fine.

I get WXIX-DT fine. I haven't noticed any degradation at all unlike WSTR-DT which went from a very strong signal up until last month here, to nothing at all in Grant County KY.

I get WXIX just fine here with my home made antenna on the roof...

I wouldn't have bought if I had known how large it was


This one ? -- http://www.doityourself.com/invt/6338990

Looks to be about 9 feet long, and about 9feet wide for the longest lo-VHF elements ---- That's a typical Small~Medium sized broadband VHF/UHF combo antenna using what looks like well proven "conventional" design --- Which I think is a perfect solution for many folks who don't want or need something too "large", and/or that want an antenna designed for good reception on all VHF/UHF TV channels, as well as for FM. Some folks however *do* need something larger+ and/or that offers more gain/directivity (sometimes only on specific frequencies or "channels") due to issues such as distance, terrain or multipath issues ..... And, one downside of a VHF/UHF combo antenna is, Seperate VHF/UHF antennas generally offer better performance ...

It's not large at all, IMO. Personally I find A 18" DBS dish is more "visable"(not that there's anything wrong with that) than an antenna of that size on the roof ... As The "size" of such an antenna is mostly just the AIR between the elements .....

And, its "futureproof" as you don't have to even think about whether or not there may someday be digital stations in the area on Lo-VHF you may want to receive, as in case it does happen, you're covered .... And you can also get good reception with it of the current analog VHF-lo stations in the area, as well as FM for now+ the future ....

Personally, being accoustomed to using MUCH larger HF antennas(for "ham" use) I have a hard time thinking of any VHF/UHF TV antennas I know of as "large"(unless several of them are "stacked" together into an array) , but I suppose if it's a 7' parabolic dish or has a 15~17' long boom, or is a 8bay UHF bowtie, then I suppose that's fairly "large" as VHF or VHF/UHF TV antennas go ...

The thing you have to keep in mind is, if we are interested in, or have a need for our antennas to actually work well we can't "choose" how "large" or small we want our antennas based on what we like to "look at" ... It has to be something that will "work" .... It's a matter of physics, a 1/2 wavelength on channel 2 is about 8.5 feet long, and that's *why* we generally need a 8.5 foot long element to provide good reception on channel 2 ..... Also, since we want to receive a very wide range of frequencies(54~88MHZ=Ch 2-6, 174~216MHZ - ch 7~13, 470~806MHZ - ch 14~69), it becomes even more difficult to design a antenna that will work well to receive signals across all those frequencies(it takes an antenna with many elements of many different sized "lengths" )_ ... And, an antenna with just ONE or few "elements" is also not going to have as much gain or directivity as an antenna with MANY elements ...

Whereas my digital picks up 5.x, 7.x (somewhat, it's pointed toward cincy with no rotator), 9.x, 12.x, 14.x, 16.x, 19.x, 22.x, 43.x, 48.x, 54.x, 64.x... my other TV's setup as analog only get 5, 9, and 12. Those three come in like a dream, but then 7 comes in barely, and I get nothing but snow from 19, 48, and 64. what's going on?

One possibility I can think of, make sure the analog set is set to "tune in" "off air" signals, not cable - usually this is selected in a menu option if your set does not have seperate RF inputs for cable and OTA(often labeled "VHF/UHF" or "ANT"). OTA VHF and VHF Cable channels use the same frequencies/channel #'s, but the UHF channels cable vs. OTA use different frequencies for different channel #'s(well, some of the frequencies are the same, just the channel numbers are different). Usually 125 channel "cable ready" TV set for "cable" reception will find channel 14~69 OTA on channels 65~125 with a "auto channel scan"- (more or less --channels in the upper 90's on cable are FM band frequencies).

Other possibilities as well -- For instance, make sure there is nothing in line which is only passing through VHF(and not UHF) to the analog TV. Or if the analog TV/VCR is really old, make sure you don't have the antenna hooked up "only" to the "VHF input ... You'd need a VHF/UHF band seperator if you have a old TV (or VCR) like that, which either has 2 300 ohm(4 screws) VHF/UHF inputs, or 1 75 ohm(female F-connector) VHF input and 1 300Ohm(2 screws) UHF input ..

Also, Of course, as I'm sure you're aware, Aim antenna at Dayton for better results from Dayton stations. In addition to "manual rotation" or getting a rotor, Another option is to get another (2nd) antenna for Dayton+run a seperate feedline from it to a A/B switch before receiver(s), using the A/B switch to switch between Dayton/Cincinnati reception. That option may end up being less expensive than a rotor, and as far as "work" goes, yes, you'd have to run another coax line(including to each TV/room you want both antenna "feeds"), but you also usually have to run a control cable for rotor as well ....

WKRC, thanks again for the HD simulcast of the Bengals Monday Night Football game. The only "issues" were the "loss of input signal" message during one of the early commercial breaks and the audio level differences between the local commercials and ESPN (ESPN is still lower volume requiring users to adjust the volume whenever a local commercial break comes up).

Overall though, nice job on getting this to us once again.

I found the PQ on ESPN was better last nite than WKRC which is surprising (due to the sat-compression thing), isn't it? Not to mention, ESPN had game in DD 5.1 which was way better...
Also, this could've been covered, but anyone know the exact date D* switches on the new 30 HD channels here? How will I know?

Additionally, I guess I gotta dump my prized (not to mention expensive) HD Tivos($1,000x2 HR10's). I'm kind of bummed that the Sat-companies are going "cable" on me! In other words, they're forcing customers to, not only lease the equipment, but give them a total choice of ONE option for an HD DVR - the inferior HR20. (i.e. you can have any color you want as long as it's black :-) At least the OTA input is working now...can anyone make me feel better about this change? (i.e. lesser PQ, lesser DVR functionality, etc)...
Go HD & Thanks!

I'm kind of bummed that the Sat-companies are going "cable" on me! In other words, they're forcing customers to, not only lease the equipment, but give them a total choice of ONE option for an HD DVR - the inferior HR20. (i.e. you can have any color you want as long as it's black :-) At least the OTA input is working now...can anyone make me feel better about this change?

IIRC you can buy the HR20 if you want, but since that only means a higher upfront cost and you'll get to keep it if you cancel D* I don't understand why someone would go that route. I'm not sure I understand your comment about color, but the HR20-700 is silver and the HR20-100 is black. You don't generally get a choice of which manufacturer box you get, but quite alot of consumer electronic equipment only comes in one color.

Having a SA S1 TiVo, I think the HR20 compares quite well in available features. It's my understanding that the DirecTiVos didn't advance much further than the features available to S1 TiVos. So I think you'll be happy with the unit. The only feature that is somewhat buggy still is the Wishlist equivelant. Plus remote scheduling is around the corner for the HR20 along with the current ability to access my music and photos from my PC.

Don't forget that DBS has always required proprietary equipment, so I wouldn't call this a recent change.

my HR20 is silver.

I really like mine. I've had it since Dec 2006 and have lived through the growing pains. As of now, its a solid box, can't recall the last time it locked up, missed a show or just plain freaked out. I use the Media Sharing features to stream music and view pictures from my PC (wireless). VOD should be rolled out soon also. OTA works ok, there is no scan, but you can select 2 zip codes (cin and dayton) for the reciever to pull in.

Nitewatchman: Thanks for the physics lesson, I hadn't thought that far, really. If you saw my antenna next to my next door neighbor's, you'd maybe understand why I was a little shocked at the size, especially when he says he gets pretty much EVERY dayton and cinci channel with the help of his rotator of course.

The Antenna is MNT902, found here: http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5000835

My only concerns are wind load, but I've got 2 5 ft poles, as, where 3 feet of the first one are "braced" so it shouldn't be a problem. How would one pick up FM off of that? I guess I'd need another cable run, or what? Sorry if I sound really new-ish at this, but I am, but I love to learn!

I got the game in HD-OTA last night, no blips at all except for the "loss of signal" that was already mentioned. It was great! Picture looked perfect! If no one told anyone, someone would think I was watching on ESPN HD! But, no! it's OTA, through an ATSC tuner card going to a PC! (i'm such a geek)

I hadn't thought that far, really.


You don't have to, as you are using an antenna which is designed to provide good reception on ALL TV channels ..... It was for the folks who are *HAVING* problems along the lines of trying to receive VHF stations(but are experiencing problems) with UHF antennas and that sort of thing .....


especially when he says he gets pretty much EVERY dayton and cinci channel with the help of his rotator of course.


That's great, given the high power levels most stations operate at some people do just fine with nothing much more than a paperclip for an antenna. And certianly, In most cases almost any antenna mounted outdoors and away from nearby obstructions is going to outperform the best of antennas placed indoors.

But, be careful. For one thing, I can't overstate how "different" reception can be with receive antenna in one spot vs. another spot, in some cases with the "spots" only several feet away. And, In my experience "I get everything just fine" can sometimes mean just the stations they are actually getting rather than all the stations that are actually there. Then there is the question whether they are achieving that level of reception from "all stations" 24/7, 365 days a year. "dropouts" with digital TV reception can be very annoying, especially if say, you "think" everything is just fine, and then in the middle of winter when it's too cold to mess with the antenna the wind kicks up during HD football and your picture begins "cutting in and out" ....


The Antenna is MNT902, found here: http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5000835

. How would one pick up FM off of that? I guess I'd need another cable run, or what?


Just hook it up to a FM receiver the same way you hook it up to your TV's or Digital TV receiver. If your FM receiver only has a 300ohm FM antenna input, you would need a matching transformer(available for a few bucks). Of course, keep in mind each time you use a 2 way splitter, you are cutting signal by about 4db.

For the "TV side" of things It usually is a good idea (especially if you're using a amp, some of which have built in, switchable FM traps ) to use a FM trap(strong FM signals can easily "overload" a amp or your receiver front end), however which will greatly attenuate FM signals. So, if you use a FM trap, you want to put a splitter(or a Winegard CA-8800 FM/TV band seperator which has less than 1db of insertion loss) before the trap, so you can run a seperate line to the FM receiver.


Sorry if I sound really new-ish at this, but I am, but I love to learn!


Not at all. That's a very big part of why we are all here ....

WKRC, thanks again for the HD simulcast of the Bengals Monday Night Football game. The only "issues" were the "loss of input signal" message during one of the early commercial breaks and the audio level differences between the local commercials and ESPN (ESPN is still lower volume requiring users to adjust the volume whenever a local commercial break comes up).

Overall though, nice job on getting this to us once again.

Weasel did the lion's share of the work bringing all this together.
But from all of us at Local 12,
"You're Welcome!"

Time Warner Cable Southwest Ohio (Cincinnati + Dayton) just gave legal notice that its agreement with "WKRC/CW" will expire soon and that it may be forced to cease carriage of this channel. The notice does not specify whether this is for WKRC-DT, WKRC-TV, or both. Obviously it applies to the CW.

http://www.timewarnercable.com/cincinnati/programming/legal_notices2.html

My 622 came with component cables a few months ago in the box. I have since replaced them with HDMI. I didn't find these in the box for my parents 622 though. Maybe Dish is trimming cost.

Hmm, interesting., I just got an ViP211 upgrade for one of my old 811 receivers and it had all kind of cables in the box. HDMI 2 DVI and a converter back to HDMI, component, composite, coax...

FYI, WCVN (analog+digital KET Covington, KY transmitter) is currently off air and apparently has been at least since around Lunchtime ....

I can see WKON 52 analog(KET's owenton, KY transmitter) is still up ...

Hopefully nothing too serious is wrong ...

Tower Painting

Nice day for it ... Update: Must be quitting time, or they're getting "down" far enough so RF exposure limits aren't an issue, as WCVN analog just fired back up at 17:02 ....

WLIO(Lima, OH) engineer sent me some pics of tower crew installing their Ch 8 DTV transmit antenna last winter, those guys looked very cold ....

William,

Forgot to mention -- Noticed KET4 HD audio last night(think it was between 23:00~00:00) it was as if delay was off between channels, creating a sort of "echo" ... Was pretty sleepy at the time and didn't take the time to check to see if something was going on on my end(didn't even check to see if it was 2.0 or 5.1 audio), or look at Tsreader/etc however ...

FYI, WCVN (analog+digital KET Covington, KY transmitter) is currently off air and apparently has been at least since around Lunchtime ....

I can see WKON 52 analog(KET's owenton, KY transmitter) is still up ...

Hopefully nothing too serious is wrong ...

Well whatever it is, it is affecting my NBC (WLWT) as if it were 8PM...:mad: It is now 17:11 here

Its such a short stick it doesn't take long... Pikeville is even shorter at 100 ft to the base plate. Its a good site to take non techies to as its easy to show them all the parts. ( Analog antenna, elbow complex, line hangers,etc.)

The DTV TX line for that site is about 65 ft. The transmitter runs about 1800W to make full power.

I am not sure I am in the right forum but I am sure someone will let me know if I am not.

Anyone know when Dish will get Local Cincinnati HD channels up and running?

It was on their schedule for 2006 -- we are now almost 4th 2007.

Thanks

That's a clue... And it means they can duplicate it so they should be able to fix it...

There is no way I can send tables or barker services if the transmitter is off.

I can't help but wonder why WLWT-DT on TW is affected since KET is offline???

Just a guess but if you captured a sample stream I bet you would see a some of the tables are missing. Each mux can be setup to regenerate the tables or simply pass them through ( or some combination of both).

Thanks for the alert.

Yes, my set refused to decode anything on 84 as well.

Took three caps - 30sec, 3 min, 3 sec

PAT listing PMT PIDs for ket*, no ket* PMTs or ESs (obviously).
Also, CVCT present, lists ket*, but no 'location descriptor's.

Attached.

19:47 just checked and WLWT-DT is on air. Missed my nightly news in HD but SD was acceptable...

Noticed Neighbor/relative made it on the news today(The tractor flip guy) ... Didn't see them as I'm a bit west("farther" from I-75 access/etc) of there, but apparently there must have been crews from every TV station in town "visiting" here today(dunno about the Dayton stations, didn't watch their news tonight) ...

On WXIX, someone either spelled or pronounced(Atherton was the someone) His name wrong ... They also said something along the lines of "there was no one around for miles " .... A bit of an exaggeration, as it's not quite THAT rural here .... No one around for 1/2 mile, probably have been a possibility, and of course much less than that is far enough for it to be likely no one would hear a yell for help .....

On WCPO, Carol did mispronounce his name(It's really not that difficult to pronouce and noticed they did spell his name corretly in a graphic), but at least pronounced the name of our road right, which I've noticed is somewhat unusual for various reasons ..... I did like the WCPO story best, not only for the Widescreen video, but also regarding the background info they gave on his family/etc, which I suspect made for an interesting addition to the story for at least some viewers ...

Just barely caught the story on WLWT/WKRC, didn't have a chance to check their "facts" as closely, but from what I did catch from them, didn't notice any "errors" there ....

Maybe it is a good idea when working alone on the "back 40" to take a FRS 2-way radio or cell phone along in case I have a chainsaw accident or something ..... You just never know what sort of trouble you might get into ....

Mostly OT I know ... But I thought watching what the different stations did with the story and with "facts" I'm familiar with was interesting, and hey, I'm trying to at least get to 5k before going into "semi-retirement lurk mode" ;) ...

Glad he is OK. :) Lots of grand kids, great grand kids and the 1 great great grand child!

I've been reading this thread for the last hour. I think I have an idea of what I need, but I figured I'd throw it out there. I just switched to Dish, and didn't realize that my local ABC, FOX, NBC, and CBS weren't available in HD yet. I think I got DirectTV's and Dish's local HD channel availabilty mixed up when I was comparing the two. Anyways, I'm stuck with Dish now and really, I only want the locals for HD football games (I could careless about the other programming that's on there). So, I guess I need an OTA antenna until the locals are available in HD.

I live in Trenton, right in between Hamilton and Middletown, and according to antennaweb I'm about 20-25 miles to most on the station antenna's in Cinci and Dayton. It looks like some people have had success with getting the channels with a Terk HDTVa or the similiar Zenith model. Will this suffice, or should I get a bigger Channel Master antenna to put up in the attic (I'm scared of heights and there's no way I'll be getting on the roof)?

Again, I just want ABC, NBC, FOX and CBS for football. I could care less about getting the PBS/CW channels.

Thanks

Rob

I've been reading this thread for the last hour. I think I have an idea of what I need, but I figured I'd throw it out there. I just switched to Dish, and didn't realize that my local ABC, FOX, NBC, and CBS weren't available in HD yet. I think I got DirectTV's and Dish's local HD channel availabilty mixed up when I was comparing the two. Anyways, I'm stuck with Dish now and really, I only want the locals for HD football games (I could careless about the other programming that's on there). So, I guess I need an OTA antenna until the locals are available in HD.

About a year ago, Dish started a special offer for external antenna in certain cities and Cincinnati was one of those cities. Everyone took this to mean that local HD in Cincinnati is a way off. Dish seems to be focusing on cities where OTA is very difficult. Unless one of our contacts at a local station knows otherwise, Dish has not made any efforts to carry Cincinnati HD.

I live in Mason and have been using an internal powered antenna to get all the local stations except WCPO-DT. I am mostly interested in Sports but certain network shows (those with a lot of outdoor scenes) are also worth the hassles of using OTA.

Hope this helps.

// Scott A

About a year ago, Dish started a special offer for external antenna in certain cities and Cincinnati was one of those cities. Everyone took this to mean that local HD in Cincinnati is a way off. Dish seems to be focusing on cities where OTA is very difficult. Unless one of our contacts at a local station knows otherwise, Dish has not made any efforts to carry Cincinnati HD.

// Scott A

What's the external antenna for...OTA?

What's the external antenna for...OTA?

Yes, external antenna = OTA.

But speaking of Dish HD locals., I just called them to inquire about a few other thing but asked them about locals in HD and as usual the answer hasn't changed at all. "There is no time frame on when Local HD will be available."

Not a biggie for me.., I am about to finally put up my Rohn's tower with a 32-(or was is 36?)point Radio Shack antenna.

Yes, external antenna = OTA.



If Dish has a special offer for an external antenna, why isn't it used by everyone?

I live in Trenton, right in between Hamilton and Middletown, and according to antennaweb I'm about 20-25 miles to most on the station antenna's in Cinci and Dayton. It looks like some people have had success with getting the channels with a Terk HDTVa or the similiar Zenith model. Will this suffice, or should I get a bigger Channel Master antenna to put up in the attic (I'm scared of heights and there's no way I'll be getting on the roof)?


There are so many factors that can effect terrestrial OTA reception in a "receive location specific" manner, that there is no way anyone can give you a definitive answer to your question. You might be able to get by with an inexpensive UHF bowtie+VHF rabbit ears indoors, or you might need a rooftop antenna installed by a professional.

There are really only two ways to find out, for sure. #1). Try it, or #2). Hire a professional antenna installer to do the job for you.

If you DIY and are messing around with indoor antennas -- probably best to start small(and inexpensive) and keep the receipts so you can take antnena back if it doesn't work.

As for "OTA knowledable" pro-antenna installers -- They can be difficult to find. And unfortunetly, typically, many sat installers seem to be clueless about properly installing OTA antennas, and using the "Right antenna" for the job. But several folks on this thread have reported good results from an outfit out of Cincinnati called "TNT Pictures". Their website+contact info is here:

http://www.tntpicturecompany.com/

Note: I know it doesn't say anything about "antennas" on their website, nevertheless, they do (or at least did - the last time I can recall someone posting about an install from them was on Dayton thread about a year ago) install antennas ....

---------------

As for the Zenith antenna you refer to -- Keep in mind, The silver sensor(UHF log periodic - more or less) is designed for UHF only reception. WCPO (ABC Cincinnati) transmits on VHF, and WKRC (CBS cincinnati) will be moving to VHF on or around feb 18, 2009. Terk HDTVa does have VHF rabbit ears in addition to it's UHF log periodic section.

As ScottA noted here, Hall said in another thread ... If you want to try it yourself(and don't want to go "up on the roof") rather than going the pro installer route, it's probably worth trying to see how indoor reception works for you -- I think It *is* a good idea to give yourself plenty of options concerning where can Place the antenna, meaning you may need some extra feedline to be able to move the antenna around ... There can be "hot spots" and "cold spots" for good reception of any given station anywhere -- especially important when putting antenna indoors, where signals will be attenuated greatly vs. outdoors ....

Here, for example, between Middletown+Germantown (about 12 miles from Dayton transmitters, 27~39 Miles from Cincinnati/N KY transmitters) -- The *only* place I can get acceptable reception from indoors from Most stations is with antenna placed near a 2nd story window facing the towers(south for Cincinnati, East for Dayton) ... a "big" high gain/high performance antenna in the attic? forget it ..Too much multipath+too much signal attenuation ..... A antenna on or near the "settop?" -- Only get a couple of stations that way(WDTN-DT or WRGT-DT, Dayton).

I actually use an outdoor antenna setup+have only tried this temporarily for testing purposes so can't say how it would have worked out from a reliability standpoint on a permanent basis (reception related dropouts can be very annoying with Digital TV), but I can say THIS simple $4 UHF antenna (http://www.radioshack.com/sm-uhf-outline-bow-tie-antenna--pi-2062017.html) placed near South facing, 2nd story window, along with a set of VHF rabbit ears for WCPO (using a VHF/UHF joiner and a cheap distrubtion amp from radio shack for the long coax run to TV - of course matching 300ohm to 75ohm matching transformer not "supplied with the antenna" was also required) gets good reception from Everything digital in Cincinnati but WCVN in N KY, and near a east facing window, everything digital except WBDT-DT and WHIO-DT(both which use directional transmit antennas with "nulls" in our direction).

-----------

Update: Forgot to mention -- You can go to following website+punch in your address to get a good idea of how strong signals should be at your receive location(takes things such as nearby terrain into account). Stations that show up at ~ -70dbm or more (-60db is more than -70dbm) are likely to be easier to receive with simple indoor antenna. Stations that show up at ~ -85dbm or -90dbm or less are likely to require an outdoor antenna setup. This can not predict other issues which can effect reception, such as multipath, or attenuation of signal by trees or by having antenna indoors(different sorts of construction materials effect signals "differently")

www.tvfool.com

If Dish has a special offer for an external antenna, why isn't it used by everyone?

I never heard of it..., but looking into it.

DISH Over the Air Antennas:

1. What is a high -definition (HD) Over the Air antenna?
An HD Over the Air antenna allows you to receive television signals that are being transmitted digitally in your area by local television stations.

2. Where can I get an HD Over the Air antenna?
You can purchase an HD Over the Air antenna from DISH Network (available in select markets only). Your local DISH Network Retailer may offer a discounted HD Over the Air antenna for as low as $49.99, with free Standard Professional Installation for one antenna. Retailers can also advise you on the type of antenna you'll need based on your geographic location.

3. What should I know about where the professional installer will place the HD Over the Air
antenna?
To improve signal levels, we will install the HD Over the Air antenna high on your home. It will have a better view of the transmitting station and get you better reception. A larger HD Over the Air antenna will be required if you live further away.

4. What channels can I expect to receive with an HD Over the Air antenna?
It depends on where you live. Channel availability varies greatly based on location, visibility and power level.

5. Are the local HD channels offered in ‘High Definition’ all the time?
Local Broadcast stations may legally choose to broadcast in various formats depending on the time of the day and the programming available. At this time, the FCC does not regulate the resolution of the digital picture they provide. Your local broadcaster’s website will display HD programming times.

6. Why do you need my address information?
Your address information is used to provide you with the most accurate antenna recommendation available; there are some areas where you may not be able to get any channels Over the Air, or only one or two. Your address is used, with the transmission tower information to give you the most accurate results we will be able to provide prior to the professional installation. When the installer is at your home, they will inform you of what channels the antenna is capable of viewing.

7. Do all HD Over the Air antennas pick up all TV stations?
No, which is why DISH Network supports several different types of antennas. The antenna that is right for you will depend on what programming you are trying to receive and should be discussed with you at the time of installation.
Customers who own an HD Over the Air antenna:

1. I can’t get a local HD channel I used to get through my HD Over the Air antenna
– what happened?
First, determine whether you lost signal from all channels, or just one. If you lose all signals from your HD Over the Air antenna you may need an adjustment from either DISH Network or the Retailer who installed it.

If you lose the HD signal from only one channel, that particular station may be operating using a temporary license and therefore could have moved. Or, if the broadcast power level changed from VHF (very high frequency) or UHF (ultra-high frequency), a different antenna type may be required.

2. Does DISH Network service HD Over the Air antennas?
Yes. If the HD Over the Air antenna was purchased from DISH Network, we will provide service for the first 90 days at no additional cost (excluding any antenna changes at the initial installation). Please call DISH Network to speak to a customer service representative for further details.


So you might be able to get an antenna for $50 installed.., however it all depends on what kind of an antenna and who/where/how they are going to install it.

DISH Over the Air Antennas....



Thanks. I had just jumped on dish's site to search for that. If they pick the correct equipment, install it for free, and provide support for it, be it for a short time....I think it might be worth checking out. I think the key issue would be rather or not you get to keep the equipment.

I'll see what I can find out...

Thanks. I had just jumped on dish's site to search for that. If they pick the correct equipment, install it for free, and provide support for it, be it for a short time....I think it might be worth checking out. I think the key issue would be rather or not you get to keep the equipment.

I'll see what I can find out...

They will more then likely let you keep the antenna after you cancel the service.
Good luck on it. :)

Check your nearest Walmart or Radio shack. There are very cheap HDTV antennas, even ones that sit right next to your TV. I would not fuss with an external mounted antenna unless you have tried the easy approach first.

fafner

DISH Over the Air Antennas:


That all sounds wonderful(well other than there is no such thing as a "High Defiition(HD) over the air antenna? and a few other "weirdnessess" in that text, LOL ...) ....

But, I wonder what the "Reality" of it is actually like for folks who tell their installer .... "I want you to install a OTA antenna for me ..." -- As in what they will end up with reception wise vs. what they'd get if they went to a Pro-OTA installer who actually knows what they are doing .....



4. What channels can I expect to receive with an HD Over the Air antenna?
It depends on where you live. Channel availability varies greatly based on location, visibility and power level.



Visablility? LOL .... That's just wrong ....



Or, if the broadcast power level changed from VHF (very high frequency) or UHF (ultra-high frequency), a different antenna type may be required.


Huh? Changes in "Broadcast power level" is different issue than the frequency of operation changes ...


So you might be able to get an antenna for $50 installed.., however it all depends on what kind of an antenna and who/where/how they are going to install it.

Sounds good in theory, but .....

Check your nearest Walmart or Radio shack. There are very cheap HDTV antennas, even ones that sit right next to your TV. I would not fuss with an external mounted antenna unless you have tried the easy approach first.

fafner

Definetly...

I just chatted with dish tech support...they cover the installation charge, but it's $99 fee for the installer to come on site...screw that!!

I'll try an indoor antenna or two and then a CM 4221 in my attic if they don't pan out.

Check your nearest Walmart or Radio shack. There are very cheap HDTV antennas, even ones that sit right next to your TV. I would not fuss with an external mounted antenna unless you have tried the easy approach first.

fafner

First, I have nothing against indoor antennas. In the right circumstances, They probably work great for lots of folks. And, especially the ones that are inexpensive but use well proven "conventional" design, they're a great option for folks who can't have outdoor antennas(such as in some apartments), or for folks who want a quick and easy way to have a shot to be able to receive TV until they have the time to get a better antenna setup(if needed), or, for "temporary" situations where you're waiting for cable or sat installer, or are only living in a location on a temporary basis/etc ....

But, I wonder how many people end up spending quite a bit of time "fussing around" with their indoor antennas vs. how much fuss is involved for folks who have properly installed outdoor antenna setups that are the "right antenna" for the specific circumstances involved. Generally, it only takes a few hours to "properly install" an outdoor antenna, and other than (as needed - it usually isn't if you just want to receive the stations from one market) using the rotor, once it's up there, you can usually count on it providing good reception for 15 years, usually more.

Definetly...

I just chatted with dish tech support...they cover the installation charge, but it's $99 fee for the installer to come on site...screw that!!

I'll try an indoor antenna or two and then a CM 4221 in my attic if they don't pan out.

CM4221 is UHF antenna. Not a good choice(especially indoors) if you want best chance to receive the Cincinnati VHF stations(ABC HD/WCPO, and after 2/17/09, WKRC-DT/CBS HD). It is however a good choice for UHF reception. edit/update: Add a VHF/UHF joiner such as CM0549 and seperate VHF antenna(such as hi-VHF only Winegard YA-1713) for best results on VHF.

If a properly done Pro OTA antenna install runs you around $200 or less, that's a very good deal, IMO.

CM4221 is UHF antenna. Not a good choice(especially indoors) if you want best chance to receive the Cincinnati VHF stations(ABC HD/WCPO, and after 2/17/09, WKRC-DT/CBS HD). It is however a good choice for UHF reception. edit/update: Add a VHF/UHF joiner such as CM0549 and seperate VHF antenna(such as Winegard YA-1713 for best results on VHF.

If a properly done Pro OTA antenna install runs you around $200 or less, that's a very good deal, IMO.

I could be way off base here, so please correct me if I'm wrong...as I'm a complete n00b...I wasn't really worried about geting the Cincinnait VHF stations since I saw on antennaweb that the ABC and CBS are UHF out of Dayton. I assuming that Dayton stations carry the same regional games as Cincinnati stations. I could care less about getting Cincinnati news...just want Football in HD.

CM4221 is UHF antenna. Not a good choice(especially indoors) if you want best chance to receive the Cincinnati VHF stations(ABC HD/WCPO, and after 2/17/09, WKRC-DT/CBS HD). It is however a good choice for UHF reception. edit/update: Add a VHF/UHF joiner such as CM0549 and seperate VHF antenna(such as hi-VHF only Winegard YA-1713) for best results on VHF.

If a properly done Pro OTA antenna install runs you around $200 or less, that's a very good deal, IMO.

All HDTV antaneas are simply "old technology" UHF ones since that is the frequency range that HDTV broadcasts at. They are highly directional and require no fussing around. You either get the channel or you dont. A VHF antenna is only needed if the OP wants to get SD content.

fafner

I could be way off base here, so please correct me if I'm wrong...as I'm a complete n00b..


You're not wrong.

However, sometimes(not all that often) you do get different NFL HD games from the Cincinnati stations vs dayton. Also, NBC HD(transmits on 50), and ABC HD Dayton(transmits on 51) transmit on Higher UHF frequencies which are generally more effected(attenuated) by terrain and having antenna indoors. Also, CBS HD Dayton's(transmits on ch 41) biggest Null in transmitting antenna pattern is *right* towards us(probably mostly because of a co-channel station in Louisville, KY) so it's potentially more difficult to receive than the other dayton digital stations from your location(CW HD WBDT also has a big null in it's transmitting antenna in our direction). Right now, Cincinnati CBS is on UHF 31, but will be moving to VHF 12 after analog shut off.

Also keep in mind that CM4221 (and most "good" antennas) are directional -- Actually, *all* antennas I'm aware of for TV reception are directional to some extent, but horizontally polarized "rabbit ears" or simple UHF 1/2 wavelength folded dipoles(like the $4 radio shack Outline bowtie I provided a link to) or UHF full wave loops(if the "circle" is orientated so it's "vertical" are "bi directional"(receive the same amount of signal off back of antenna as front, but not off the sides) are bi-directional.

Meaning they *reject* signals(and multipath+interference) to quite an extent in directions they are not aimed -- Other than to some extent the "bi-directonal" simple antennas, You can't aim such an antenna at both Dayton+Cincinnati at the same time. A rotor or seperate antennas on seperate feedlines with A/B switch before receiver to switch between them are required if you want best chances of reception from both Cincinnati+Dayton stations, or some combination thereof. You could however aim a VHF antenna at Cincinnati(for WCPO now, and for WCPO and WKRC after analog shut off) and a UHF antenna at Dayton(all UHF digital now+after analog shut off for the full service stations), and combine those seperate VHF/UHF antennas onto same feedline with a VHF/UHF joiner such as CM#0549.

Update: What I was saying was, if you choose a CM4221(or any other UHF only antenna) -- Just keep in mind there are VHF stations you may want to receive as well, and if that turns out to be the case, you can acheive much better results on VHF by adding a seperate VHF antenna, later(such as "rabbit ears -- better on VHF than a CM4221), or a hi-VHF only Winegard YA-1713 (excellent performance on VHF 7-13, but MUCH smaller(should fit in attic easily) than VHF or VHF/UHF combo antennas designed for channel 2~13 ...

All HDTV antaneas are simply "old technology"


No such thing as a "HDTV antenna". that's a marketing term. Antennas work and perform the same regardless of the signal modulation used. OTA("wireless" broadcasting) Digital TV(HD is digital TV) in U.S. uses 8-VSB (trellis coded 8 level vestigal sideband -- a AM based signal modulation), Analog NTSC OTA uses a "AM" based signal modulation(but very different from 8-VSB) for the video, and FM for the audio carrier.


.......
UHF ones since that is the frequency range that HDTV
broadcasts at. .... A VHF antenna is only needed if the OP wants to get SD content.....


Wrong. Digital TV(including HD) broadcasting in U.S. includes broadcasts on Lo-VHF band channels 2-6(54~88MHZ), Hi-VHF band channels 7-13(174~213 MHZ), and UHF channels 14~69(470-806MHZ). After analog shut off on 2/17/09, channel 52~69 are being reallocated for other uses, and channel 2-51 will remain in use for DTV broadcasting. In Southwest Ohio, we have Hi-VHF+UHF digital(HD) stations on VHF and UHF now, and will have VHF-HI and UHF digital(HD) stations after 2/17/09 as well. WDKY-DT 4 (analog 56) Lexington, KY is currently the nearest lo-VHF digital broadcast station.

WCPO-DT (digital) Cincinnati transmits on VHF channel 10. Their analog station transmits on 9. It will remain that way after analog shut off. WKRC-DT(digital) Cincinnati transmits on UHF channel 31 currently, and will be moving to VHF channel 12 after analog shut off.

VHF antennas are(and will be) needed for best results for digital(HD) OTA where there are stations broadcasting on VHF just as they are needed for best results for VHF analog stations ....


They are highly directional and require no fussing around. You either get the channel or you dont.



AGain, Wrong. This time on several accounts. There are some(like the Silver sensor), but few "indoor settop type" antennas are "highly directional".

As for "fussing around", the reasons for doing so regarding an indoor antenna vs. an outdoor antenna aren't generally specific to an antenna's design(an outdoor antenna can be used indoors, for instance) --- It's specific to the reception difficulties which are often exacberated by having antenna indoors. For instance, Having antenna indoors greatly attenuates signals vs. having antenna outdoors -- It varies quite a bit in any given circumstance due to building construction materials the signals are "coming through, but -20db attenuation by having antenna under roof rather than ablove is a good rule of thumb to go by. Plain ordinary Window glass would probably provide the least amount of attenuation. No broadband VHF or UHF antenna I'm aware of(indoor or outdoor) available to consumers provides 20db of signal gain on any channel.(on certian channels on UHF, Antennadirect XG91 or CM4228 are close). Meaning, in almost all cases, almost *any* antenna placed outdoors+away from nearby obstructions in direction of towers(especially at roof level or higher) is going to outperform the *best* of antennas indoors.

No matter what sort of antenna is used, anything "near" antenna(including you when you are adjusting it) becomes "connected" to the antenna, and effectively part of the antenna itself - Therefore effecting the antenna's "design"(and VSWR) directly. When possible It's best to keep any objects away from antenna about 10 wavelengths(at lowest frequency your going to use the antenna for) in direction antenna is "aimed"(direction of transmitter). This obviously often isn't possible indoors.

Also, multipath often becomes more of an issue indoors. turn a light on in an attic. Look at all the shadows/reflections/etc that are created. The same thing happens with RF on lower frequencies than visable light you're trying to receive with your antenna ....

No such thing as a "HDTV antenna". that's a marketing term. Antennas work and perform the same regardless of the signal modulation used. OTA("wireless" broadcasting) Digital TV(HD is digital TV) in U.S. uses 8-VSB (trellis coded 8 level vestigal sideband -- a AM based signal modulation), Analog NTSC OTA uses a "AM" based signal modulation(but very different from 8-VSB) for the video, and FM for the audio carrier.



Wrong. Digital TV(including HD) broadcasting in U.S. includes broadcasts on Lo-VHF band channels 2-6(54~88MHZ), Hi-VHF band channels 7-13(174~213 MHZ), and UHF channels 14~69(470-806MHZ). After analog shut off on 2/17/09, channel 52~69 are being reallocated for other uses, and channel 2-51 will remain in use for DTV broadcasting. In Southwest Ohio, we have Hi-VHF+UHF digital(HD) stations on VHF and UHF now, and will have VHF-HI and UHF digital(HD) stations after 2/17/09 as well. WDKY-DT 4 (analog 56) Lexington, KY is currently the nearest lo-VHF digital broadcast station.

WCPO-DT (digital) Cincinnati transmits on VHF channel 10. Their analog station transmits on 9. It will remain that way after analog shut off. WKRC-DT(digital) Cincinnati transmits on UHF channel 31 currently, and will be moving to VHF channel 12 after analog shut off.

VHF antennas are(and will be) needed for best results for digital(HD) OTA where there are stations broadcasting on VHF just as they are needed for best results for VHF analog stations ....



AGain, Wrong. This time on several accounts. There are some(like the Silver sensor), but few "indoor settop type" antennas are "highly directional".

As for "fussing around", the reasons for doing so regarding an indoor antenna vs. an outdoor antenna aren't generally specific to an antenna's design(an outdoor antenna can be used indoors, for instance) --- It's specific to the reception difficulties which are often exacberated by having antenna indoors. For instance, Having antenna indoors greatly attenuates signals vs. having antenna outdoors -- It varies quite a bit in any given circumstance due to building construction materials the signals are "coming through, but -20db attenuation by having antenna under roof rather than ablove is a good rule of thumb to go by. Plain ordinary Window glass would probably provide the least amount of attenuation. No broadband VHF or UHF antenna I'm aware of(indoor or outdoor) available to consumers provides 20db of signal gain on any channel.(on certian channels on UHF, Antennadirect XG91 or CM4228 are close). Meaning, in almost all cases, almost *any* antenna placed outdoors+away from nearby obstructions in direction of towers(especially at roof level or higher) is going to outperform the *best* of antennas indoors.

No matter what sort of antenna is used, anything "near" antenna(including you when you are adjusting it) becomes "connected" to the antenna, and effectively part of the antenna itself - Therefore effecting the antenna's "design"(and VSWR) directly. When possible It's best to keep any objects away from antenna about 10 wavelengths(at lowest frequency your going to use the antenna for) in direction antenna is "aimed"(direction of transmitter). This obviously often isn't possible indoors.

Also, multipath often becomes more of an issue indoors. turn a light on in an attic. Look at all the shadows/reflections/etc that are created. The same thing happens with RF on lower frequencies than visable light you're trying to receive with your antenna ....

Sorry but you have confused Digital TV with High Definiton TV. They are two entirely different things. Apparenty you have been confused by these terms as many companies (especially TWC) have tried to make you think that Digital=HiDef. It does not. Digital is simply a means of transmitting signals, be they SD or HD from one place to another.

You are right that the OP needs a VHF as well as a UHF antenna if he/she wants to obtain all digital stations be they SD or HD. However, as I said only a UHF antenna (now labelled as an HDTV antenna for obvious reasons) is required to receive only HD digital TV signals.

fafner

Sorry but you have confused Digital TV with High Definiton TV. They are two entirely different things.


Again you are wrong. Over the air broadcast digital TV (which is abbreviated as "DTV" on this forum) can be sent in a variety of different formats/resolutions. 18 of which are listed in ATSC's infamous "table 3". Several of those formats are SD, and several are HD. Broadcast DTV stations in our area send both HD and SD DTV program services.




Apparenty you have been confused by these terms

Again you are wrong.



However, as I said only a UHF antenna (now labelled as an HDTV antenna for obvious reasons) is required to receive only HD digital TV signals.
fafner

Again you are wrong. WCPO-DT cincinnati transmits HDTV, over the air in 720p format on VHF channel 10 currently. They also multicast a 480i Sd digital weather channel. Both program services(which are sent within a single MPEG2 transport stream) are digital TV, one is HD, one is SD.

Some can get enough signal from WCPO-DT via a UHF only antenna to be able to receive them adequetly(any "coathanger" can work if the signal is of sufficent strength/quality), some need a VHF antenna, for best results for VHF digital(Including HD) stations, expect to need an antenna designed for VHF reception.

update: Just a suggestion, but I would suggest you do a little more reasearch using reliable sources of information before commenting on such issues.

many companies (especially TWC) have tried to make you think that Digital=HiDef. It does not. Digital is simply a means of transmitting signals, be they SD or HD from one place to another.


That is certianly true.

However, HD is digital TV, just as I said, exactly as I said it .... HD can be analog, but analog HD transmission is not currently used in U.S. ...

Digital TV is *not* necessarily HD however, it can be HD, SD, or ED(480p is often reffered to as "ED" for "enhanced definition" - although it's rarely been used by broadcasters) ... And again, in that regard you are correct ....

The main thing I think you have wrong is that you seem to be thinking all HDTV over the air broadcasts are on UHF. That is wrong, and is a common "misperception", which is probably understandable since :

#1). There are probably still websites out there that say things like "all HD broadcasting is or will be on UHF".

#2). Because in many markets currently, all HD broadcasts are on UHF. In some markets(such as dayton - at least regarding the current full service broadcast stations on the air) even after analog shut off all digital TV(including HD) will remain on UHF, but a good number of stations nationwide will be moving to VHF after analog shut off ... The main *reason* why there are not more VHF digital/HD stations currently is because the analog stations are still on the air, occupying that spectrum in most areas.

#2). Also, Originally, the plan WAS for all OTA DTV(including HD) broadcasting in us to be on UHF, but that plan changed in the mid-90's when it was decided to add VHF into the core digital broadcast spectrum. First, ch 7-13 were added, later 2-6 were added as well.

#3). Many "popular" antennas are designed only for UHF reception.

As I said, VHF and UHF channels 2-69 are currently used for DTV broadcasting(Including HD broadcasts), after analog shut off, channel 2-51 will be used for DTV broadcasting(including HD broadcasts). Given DTV broadcasting is more "spectrum efficent"(in some cases DTV stations can transmit on 1st adacent channels in the same market, with analog, that wasn't possible - therefore allowing the same(or more) number of stations to "fit" in less spectrum) Channel 52~69 are being reallocated for other uses after analog shut off. 88 MHZ of ch 52~69 are being(or have been) auctioned off, 24MHZ are to be used for public safety purposes.

That is certianly true.

However, HD is digital TV, just as I said, exactly as I said it .... HD can be analog, but analog HD transmission is not currently used in U.S. ...

Digital TV is *not* necessarily HD however, it can be HD, SD, or ED(480p is often reffered to as "ED" for "enhanced definition" - although it's rarely been used by broadcasters) ... And again, in that regard you are correct ....

The main thing I think you have wrong is that you seem to be thinking all HDTV over the air broadcasts are on UHF. That is wrong, and is a common "misperception", which is probably understandable since :

#1). There are probably still websites out there that say things like "all HD broadcasting is or will be on UHF".

#2). Because in many markets currently, all HD broadcasts are on UHF. In some markets(such as dayton - at least regarding the current full service broadcast stations on the air) even after analog shut off all digital TV(including HD) will remain on UHF, but a good number of stations nationwide will be moving to VHF after analog shut off ... The main *reason* why there are not more VHF digital/HD stations currently is because the analog stations are still on the air, occupying that spectrum in most areas.

#2). Also, Originally, the plan WAS for all OTA DTV(including HD) broadcasting in us to be on UHF, but that plan changed in the mid-90's when it was decided to add VHF into the core digital broadcast spectrum. First, ch 7-13 were added, later 2-6 were added as well.

#3). Many "popular" antennas are designed only for UHF reception.

As I said, VHF and UHF channels 2-69 are currently used for DTV broadcasting(Including HD broadcasts), after analog shut off, channel 2-51 will be used for DTV broadcasting(including HD broadcasts). Given DTV broadcasting is more "spectrum efficent"(in some cases DTV stations can transmit on 1st adacent channels in the same market, with analog, that wasn't possible - therefore allowing the same(or more) number of stations to "fit" in less spectrum) Channel 52~69 are being reallocated for other uses after analog shut off. 88 MHZ of ch 52~69 are being(or have been) auctioned off, 24MHZ are to be used for public safety purposes.


I don't understand why you are confusing the issue by discussing both digital tv and hdtv. As I said they are very different things as I am sure you well know. The only thing you have said that is different from what I have said is that some HDTV signals are now (rarely) being sent over VHF frequencies. If that is true, it is news to me and I thank you for bringing me up to date. Are there particuar reasons why this is done in the two cases you mention?

fafner

Looks like WXIX-DT may be having problems with the film detection settings on their encoder again .... Zenith HDV420 here is dropping frames during content sourced from film or 24fps HD video sources again at 6pm today during "according to Jim" ...

I don't understand why you are confusing the issue by discussing both digital tv and hdtv.


I'm not confusing anything. I'll try letting FCC say it, instead of me, as obviously It seems I'm not getting through very well :

From FCC's DTV (Digital television) website here:

http://www.dtv.gov

Below quote is specifically from this page :

http://www.dtv.gov/whatisdtv.html


Quality Levels

There are many quality levels of digital television programming. The most common are:

Standard Definition TV (SDTV) - SDTV is the basic level of quality display and resolution for both analog and digital. Transmission of SDTV may be in either the traditional (4:3) or widescreen (16:9) format.

Enhanced Definition TV (EDTV) - EDTV is a step up from Analog Television. EDTV comes in 480p widescreen (16:9) or traditional (4:3) format and provides better picture quality than SDTV, but not as high as HDTV.

High Definition TV (HDTV) - HDTV in widescreen format (16:9) provides the highest resolution and picture quality of all digital broadcast formats. Combined with digitally enhanced sound technology, HDTV sets new standards for sound and picture quality in television. (Note: HDTV and digital TV are not the same thing -- HDTV is one format of digital TV.)



As I said they are very different things as I am sure you well know.


No they are not "very different things". You can't HAVE HDTV as we know it without DTV(digital TV!) ..... update: as the info at FCC site says "HDTV is one format of digital TV!", just as SDTV is "one format of digital TV!" ... Yes, "digital TV" and "HDTV" are *specifically* different things, but it is still accurate to say "HDTV is digital TV" .... should I type out "HDTV is one format of digital TV every time I refer to HDTV as being transmitted by a "DTV station", such as a VHF DTV station? -- Something I can easily+correctly abbreviate as say, a "HD/DTV station"?

HDTV is digital TV, digital TV CAN be HDTV, EDTV or SDTV. What is confusing about that?

There isn't anything inherently different about HDTV broadcasts vs. SD digital broadcasts other than involving resolution, color matrices and other highly techincal details involving the video signal regarding the different "resolution" formats used with DTV, they're transmitted in the exact same way - via MPEG2 program streams.

Let me try it this way ... HDTV (high definintion) is a *part* of OTA digital Television, just as SD digital TV is ---- HDTV is broadcast via our Digital Television standard in the U.S., the ATSC digital Television standard ....For instance, You will not find much specific reference to "HDTV" in any FCC regulations because HDTV is in no way shape or form required to be broadcast by DTV stations -- *BUT* Most DTV stations *DO* broadcast HDTV.

For more detailed info on our digital TV(includes HD) standard and how it works, download and study the ATSC A 53/A54 (and for PSIP a65) document available at ATSC's website :

www.atsc.org


some HDTV signals are now (rarely) being sent over VHF frequencies.


No. It's not just "now" and it's not just "rarely". HDTV has been broadcast in U.S. since 1998 on VHF and UHF. There were some earlier "test stations" on air as early as 1996(such as WRAL-DT) as well, but not many. In Cincinnati, WCPO-DT began broadcasting HDTV on VHF channel 10 in 1998. Coverage of a Nov 1998 Shuttle Launch with John Glenn aboard was the first HDTV broadcast in U.S. If I recall correctly, both WCPO-DT and WKRC-DT were on their air+broadcasting it in HDTV.

Out of about 2,000 full service stations in U.S. Currently, about 200 or so DTV stations broadcast on VHF in US. I can't tell you how many of those transmit HDTV, but most of them do. AFter analog shut off, about 200 more will be broadcasting DTV(including HD) on VHF. Some or many LP digital(not many of those yet, and again, those can transmit HD as well) stations will be transmitting on VHF as well, and there's also the possibility of new stations broadcasting on VHF (or UHF) in the future.


If that is true, it is news to me and I thank you for bringing me up to date.


It's true. The "final" decision/last word on this was made in early 1998 as described by FCC in paragraph #41 (page 18~19) in the following document :

http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Orders/1998/fcc98024.pdf

Also See Threads such as the "Final DTV table of allotments" thread in this area of AVSforum for more info+discussion.


Are there particuar reasons why this is done in the two cases you mention?


I'm not sure exactly what your asking here ... But I'll try answering best I can(but without too much detail as I'm running short of time, currently) what I think you mean ...

Why do some stations use VHF, currently? Simple answer is because that's where FCC put them. There isn't enough room on UHF for all DTV and analog stations to operate, currently, and there isn't enough room on UHF channel 14~51 for all DTV stations to operate on after analogs are shut off. Things are so tight right now that less than desireable channel allocations are even being used in some cases.

Why are some stations currently operating on UHF moving to VHF after analog shut off? Many reasons, which can vary depending upon specific circumstances. With the appropriate antenna, VHF is often easier to receive when terrain obstruction is involved, as the longer wavelengths(basically) can "bend" around hills better(that's not completely technically accurate descpription but should suffice). VHF requires MUCH less power to cover the same area than UHF, and therefore lower utilitiy bills to run the stations transmitters.

Regarding WKRC, specifically, XmtrMan or Weasel would have to answer that one. But, I would venture to guess one issue involved could have been that channel 12 is and after analog shut off should be a very "clean" channel allocation for this area involving issues such as co or adjacent channel interference issues with other stations. Also, if they stayed On 31, there is WRGT-DT 30, Dayton which can be an adjacent channel interference issue for folks in certian portions of WKRC's(or WRGT's) viewing area. Digital can work extremely well on 1st adajcent channels in the right circumstances(such as if the adjacent channel allocations are co-located), but not as well when there is a certian amount of seperation between the transmit sites involved.

Why is WCPO staying on channel 10 after analog shut off? Again, someone at WCPO would have to answer that ... but, do keep in mind stations only had somewhat of a choice where they want to be after analog shut off ... If they chose to move their digital to their analog channel, in most cases they had to Protect other stations from interference(in WCPO's case, such as WISH-DT 9 Indianapolis) -- If they stay where they are with digital, other stations have to protecct THEM from interference .... In order to chose a entirely "different" UHF channel, IF they could even find one they would have to be even a lot more "careful" about protecting other stations coverage areas from interference, a difficult task in our area which will likely remain generally "crowded" after analog shut off on Hi-VHF and UHF ....


----------------------

In any case, a summary to a question of "why use VHF"? would be Both VHF and UHF have their disadvantages and advantages - For broadcasters and for viewers.

Just got off the phone with Mike B. at TWC.

Didn't get my 'sit down' meeting, but we did go over an email I prepared (and sent during the call) that focused on the 'Service Location' descriptor. What with KET being off the air yesterday, it became obvious that TWC is generating (for example) the CVCT rather than passing through a massaged version of the TVCT. I tried to explain the hypothesis that the absence of BOTH PMT stream AND the descriptor causes our devices to just 'give up' (which might be considered a chipset/firmware issue).

He's going to take the info I sent him and discuss it with other staff. We'll see...

Jeff,

Lets see if we can agree on the following:

1. HDTV is the highest quality broadcast TV currently available. The signals required to broadcast HDTV can only be sent via digital transmission, not by analog transmission. This is due to the greater bandwidth required by the HDTV specifications.

2. SD quality tv can be sent by digital or analog transmission.

3. A broadcaster can use the greater efficency of digital transmission to transmit one or more SD channels and/or one HD quality channel in the space they have been assigned within the digital transmission spectrum.

4. Most HDTV channels recently and currently are broadcast within the spectrum previously olny called the UHF spectrum. According to your best estimate, perhaps 10% of the HDTV channels are currently broadcast within what is commonly known as the VHF spectrum.

5. To receive any HDTV channel the viewer's equipment must be able to "grab" the HDTV signal out of the air via a built-in antenna, an external antenna (inside the house or outside), cable transmisson or satellite transmission. The types of antennas currently availble for this purpose are marketed as HDTV antennas (both for use inside the house and outside the house.) These antennas typically are the type that were used before to receive UHF signals. There may be some that also are designed to receive the traditional VHF frequencies as well as the UHF frequencies. (I am not aware of any that do that but perhaps you do.)

6. The invention of digital transmission allowed for the broadscale adoption of HDTV.

7. The federal goverment gave broadcasters the option to use their digital bandwith as they choose...either to broadcast more SD quality channels than before or to broadcast HTDV. Some broadcasters are choosing the HDTV format because they believe that will make them more money. Other broadcasters are choosing to transmit more SD quality channels than they could before because they believe it will make them more money and avoid the expenses of broadcasting in HDTV quality.

8. TWC and other cable/satellite companies used the fact that they broadcast via digital transmission to imply that the picture quality is better than that of analog transmission...when that is not necessarily the case at all. This has led to enormous confusion by J6P as to what HDTV and digital transmission are and are not.

9. The future will become even more complicated as broadcasting and transmission technologies continue to evolve.

fafner

However, as I said only a UHF antenna (now labelled as an HDTV antenna for obvious reasons) is required to receive only HD digital TV signals.
Nightwatchman is 100% correct. HD in Cincinnati IS on VHF and UHF. Channel 9 (WCPO-DT) broadcasts via VHF and their HD content is not rare by any means. The local news everyday is HD. ABC national programming (some, not all) is in HD. So yes a VHF and UHF antenna is needed.

Also most folks consider SD programs to be analog even tho they are indeed broadcast on DTV.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Keep pluggin' away plughplover!!!:D

My $.02


1. HDTV is the highest quality broadcast TV currently available. The signals required to broadcast HDTV can only be sent via digital transmission, not by analog transmission. This is due to the greater bandwidth required by the HDTV specifications.

Not exactly true... it isn't a digital transmission, it is an analog transmission of a digital signal.

3. A broadcaster can use the greater efficency of digital transmission to transmit one or more SD channels and/or one HD quality channel in the space they have been assigned within the digital transmission spectrum.

Some people have tried putting more than 1 HD stream out at 1 time. It didn't bode well. Of course, it looked terrible.

4. Most HDTV channels recently and currently are broadcast within the spectrum previously olny called the UHF spectrum. According to your best estimate, perhaps 10% of the HDTV channels are currently broadcast within what is commonly known as the VHF spectrum.

10% currently may be in that spectrum now (as Nitewatchman said, no room in the VHF spectrum in most areas), but 20% will be after the analog shutoff date. Approximately 20% of the total TV channels are available in VHF and 80% in UHF. Therefore I'm not sure of what your point is, as statistically this is insignificant.

5. To receive any HDTV channel the viewer's equipment must be able to "grab" the HDTV signal out of the air via a built-in antenna, an external antenna (inside the house or outside), cable transmisson or satellite transmission.

Better wording, IMO, would be: "To view over the air stations a viewer's equipment must have an ATSC tuner built in. Otherwise, cable and satellite providers supply or sell set top boxes that can receive the signals over the air and/or through their respective medium."

6. The invention of digital transmission allowed for the broadscale adoption of HDTV.

See point 1.

7. The federal goverment gave broadcasters the option to use their digital bandwith as they choose...either to broadcast more SD quality channels than before or to broadcast HTDV. Some broadcasters are choosing the HDTV format because they believe that will make them more money. Other broadcasters are choosing to transmit more SD quality channels than they could before because they believe it will make them more money and avoid the expenses of broadcasting in HDTV quality.

Some have tried other applications, such as the webhopper data service.

My $.02



Not exactly true... it isn't a digital transmission, it is an analog transmission of a digital signal.



Some people have tried putting more than 1 HD stream out at 1 time. It didn't bode well. Of course, it looked terrible.



10% currently may be in that spectrum now (as Nitewatchman said, no room in the VHF spectrum in most areas), but 20% will be after the analog shutoff date. Approximately 20% of the total TV channels are available in VHF and 80% in UHF. Therefore I'm not sure of what your point is, as statistically this is insignificant.



Better wording, IMO, would be: "To view over the air stations a viewer's equipment must have an ATSC tuner built in. Otherwise, cable and satellite providers supply or sell set top boxes that can receive the signals over the air and/or through their respective medium."



See point 1.



Some have tried other applications, such as the webhopper data service.

Thanks for your comments. I agree your wording is better than mine.

1. You are correct.

4. Nightwatch was the one who pointed out that some HDTV channels are broadcast within the VHF spectrum. That was news to me but I wanted to be sure his input was included.

fafner

Just got off the phone with Mike B. at TWC.

Didn't get my 'sit down' meeting, but we did go over an email I prepared (and sent during the call) that focused on the 'Service Location' descriptor. What with KET being off the air yesterday, it became obvious that TWC is generating (for example) the CVCT rather than passing through a massaged version of the TVCT. I tried to explain the hypothesis that the absence of BOTH PMT stream AND the descriptor causes our devices to just 'give up' (which might be considered a chipset/firmware issue).
He's going to take the info I sent him and discuss it with other staff. We'll see...

I hope they'll fix CET-World & CET-CrEaTe too. I can't even get CET-World on QAM. CET-CrEaTe comes in on Ch. 0-0.

stopped by best buy and picked up a terk hdtvi on the way home..can't believe it's $30 more than what it can be had for online. anyways...

Tried using in the same room with the TV with no luck. I tried each window, the front door, all over the room...nothing at all. I then climbed up in my attic and sat the thing at the very front of the house so that it was only going through wood and siding....I was kinda able to get a picture on all the Dayton channels that I wanted, but it was fuzzy and not very good. The signal meter on my tv showed nothing higher than low 20s on any of the stations. any suggestions? im afraid if the next option doesn't work, i will have to eat the $240 cancellation fee and be in the doghouse for who knows how long...being able to watch HD football games would probably be worth it, but id like to avoid that situation...

again, im now looking for something to rig up in the attic, i think id rather eat the cancellation fee than to get up on my roof. ill be putting the antenna above my garage so that im only pointing through siding and wood, rather than wood and shingles. help!

Looks like WXIX-DT may be having problems with the film detection settings on their encoder again .... Zenith HDV420 here is dropping frames during content sourced from film or 24fps HD video sources again at 6pm today during "according to Jim" ...

Email has been sent to WXIX engineers and they are very good at correcting the problem quickly. Hopefully they can figure out why the encoder keeps resetting itself(Or if someone else is logging on).

No offense to fafner, but Jeff is definitely one of the more knowledgeable members on AVS. He does an excellent job of explaining things and does a very good job of showing that our digital transmission system is not a "one item fits all". Also just one correction, HDTV can be sent as an analog signal, Japan did this in the past, but are now broadcasting a digital signal. It is important for everyone to realize that analog is far from dead and will more than likely always be around, but in the case of TV, it is obviously changing.

It is important for everyone to realize that analog is far from dead and will more than likely always be around, but in the case of TV, it is obviously changing.


I think as of Feb 2009 analog TV is dead in America.

I think as of Feb 2009 analog TV is dead in America.

"No offense to fafner..."

Thanks for spelling my name correctly...with a small "f"....and no offense taken. Maybe some day I will be as deserving of such accolades as Jeff is now :)

fafner

Analog SD will still be there past feb 2009 on cable in some(or many)cases .... FCC just ruled yesterday that cableco's are required to provide analog signals to analog cable only TV's/customers until 2012, at least regarding broadcast stations carried on cable via "must-carry" rules ... I haven't read the details yet(and probably won't as I have no real interest in it), not sure about the specifics, including regarding broadcast stations carried on cable via retransmission consent rules --- Only read some of the news reports/posts on it in other thread, but think I'd read that could be via a converter(STB) the cableco supplies to the customer, or coming from the headend ...

I'm not sure how long all analog video signals that were analog at some important point in the "signal chain" (so to speak) will be a thing of the past from all TV ... probably never, including for some material that is NTSC analog Composite SD video .... For instance, they may have been/may be transferred to a digital storage format, but Episodes of "All in the Family" will never be "completely" digital, IMO, as they were captured to an analog format ...Will someone want to watch Archie and Meathead go at it in 100 years ? I'd imagine so .... I think that's important in that case because it would potentially have effect on the quality, regardless of if the transmission/delivery and storage format is digital or analog .... OTOH, I suppose "film" is an analog format as well, but it really doesn't matter(except for how it detioriates), as an transfer from film to digital HD format isn't going to diminish the HD quality involved, as film (16MM or 35MM anyway) is HIGHER resolution than HD ...

------------------------------------------------------

JyDogg -- Thanks again for contacting WXIX ... It's been so long, I'm not sure anyone there would remember me. I do know I enjoyed emails with their GM on several occasions in the past, back before the Fox HD, when they were sending "Fox High resolution digital ummm .... Widescreen",(which was a 480i 16x9 "anamorphic" feed from Fox -- but upconverted at xix to 1080i ...

BTW, Funny thing, you just made the rest of this post "shorter"(thanks for that as well!), as I was going to mention Japan's Analog HDTV in response to fafner's point #1 as well :)

------------------------------------------------------


4. Nightwatch was the one who pointed out that some HDTV channels are broadcast within the VHF spectrum. That was news to me but I wanted to be sure his input was included.


Well, I just composed a long response to your "9 points" post, but deleted most of it it, as decided this is already WAY more than long enough, and I'd rather read others responses/thoughts to some of it, instead .... In addition to those who've already commented, I would Especially would like to hear the thoughts of some of the broadcast DTV engineers or others in the biz, such as DrDon who comes to mind if he has any time to still read any of this thread who post or monitor this thread. Those folks perspectives on those issues would certianly be more interesting and valuable than mine ;)

I didn't delete quite all of it, though, so will comment a bit on these :


4. Most HDTV channels recently and currently are broadcast within the spectrum previously olny called the UHF spectrum. According to your best estimate, perhaps 10% of the HDTV channels are currently broadcast within what is commonly known as the VHF spectrum.


I don't understand the "recently and currently" context. DTV, including HDTV on VHF and UHF have been the present+future of TV broadcasting beginning in the late 90's.

And it depends where you are. Some markets have or will have a much higher percentage of VHF DTV broadcasters than others. For instance, Vegas currenty has FIVE VHF DTV stations. I hesitate to say they are all broadcasting HDTV as I don't know the specifics involved, I'm just looking at info from FCC database which doesn't indicate networks of affiliations/etc. I'm sure you could look in the Las Vegas local reception thread for more info if your interested.

Most markets will end up with one or two "top 4 network" affiliates on VHF after analog shut off. For instance, In our immediate area, that's already the case in Cincinnati, Louisville, Lexington, Indianapolis, and Columbus, and will remain that way after analog shut off(Indy, Cincy have 1 now, will have 2, Lexington has 2 now, will have 2 after analog shut off, Columbus has 1 now, will have 1 after analog shut off). They all transmit HDTV programming.

Also, of course there are/will be "more" UHF digital/HD stations, because there are/will be more UHF channels.

Also, there will only be *37* (maybe 38 or 39, one or two stations are wanting to move to lo-VHF still) VHF-LO (channel 2-6) stations after analog shut off because most broadcasters seem to be avoiding lo-VHF for DTV due to certian interference issues involved with those frequencies which aren't an issue(or as much of an issue) on Hi-VHF or UHF. That's another reason why there won't be quite as many VHF digital stations as there are VHF analog stations, because it means most(a little over 400) VHF digital stations will be on 7 VHF channels, and you can only fit so many in without causing interference to each other ...


The types of antennas currently availble for this purpose are marketed as HDTV antennas (both for use inside the house and outside the house.) These antennas typically are the type that were used before to receive UHF signals. There may be some that also are designed to receive the traditional VHF frequencies as well as the UHF frequencies. (I am not aware of any that do that but perhaps you do.)


There are many designed for VHF and UHF which are currently being marketed as "HDTV antennas", they just aren't as "visable" or generally commented on as much it seems as the UHF only models(which due to the wavelengths involved are generally smaller, which is something many people seem to "like").

Just about every antenna out there these days has a "HDTV antenna" "sticker" or "label" on it. Winegard even has changed some of their model numbers to "HD" instead of "PR" ... For instance, the antenna I use for VHF/FM (Winegard PR5030, is now called a "winegard HD5030) And here is a VHF/UHF combo antenna we recently discussed which is advertised as a "HDTV" antenna(among other things) :

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5000835


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Also, Couple of things I wanted to comment on/clarify regarding earlier disucssion with fafner which I missed earlier....


You either get the channel or you dont.


That is the way it is "supposed" to work, and that is how it often does work.

However -- reception impairments such as due to signal fading if the signal is barely at threshold for DTV reception, as well as interference, or dynamic multipath conditions the receiver can't correct for, such as due to a reflection from a overflying aircraft all can produce what are usually reffered to here as "dropouts".

So it's not quite allways a "you either get it or you don't" thing ... There is a "in between" as well ... In theory, not much of an "in between" as all you need to do is achieve about 16db S/N at all times in order to acheive perfect DTV reception of any given station ... But, that is not allways as easy as it sounds, as it often isn't just a matter of "enough" signal being present. Multipath which is uncorrectable by receiver or interference(pretty much anything but "usable" portions of desired 8VSB signal, although a "robust" rejection of NTSC analog signal interference is "built in") is just seen "noise" to the receiver, and in practice when you have to deal with it, that "not much" of an in between can sometimes make DTV reception seem quite "finicky", and in some cases quite difficult to overcome even in some cases when the actual desired signal is quite strong .....



The only thing you have said that is different from what I have said is that some HDTV signals are now (rarely) being sent over VHF frequencies.


That *is* the issue we are discussing. It's important when you have many models of popular UHF only "HDTV antennas" on the market but have VHF DTV signals(containing HDTV broadcasts) to receive in your area. It's important for OTA HDTV (or SD DTV viewers for that matter - some folks even "watch" HDTV broadcasts but NOT in HD/not on HD displays!) Just as it is important for folks to understand they aren't necessarily going to get HDTV with "digital cable or "digital satellite" ....

It seemed necessary to me to discuss and clarify DTV being the way HDTV is transmitted(Meaning obviously VHF DTV stations broadcast HDTV just as UHF DTV stations broadcast HDTV ---), and that there is no significant difference between a DTV station transmitting HDTV vs SDTV signals(other than resolution of HDTV being much higher) -- because of earlier statements of yours such as these :


You are right that the OP needs a VHF as well as a UHF antenna if he/she wants to obtain all digital stations be they SD or HD. However, as I said only a UHF antenna (now labelled as an HDTV antenna for obvious reasons) is required to receive only HD digital TV signals.



Now -- would it be more *specifically* accurate to detail the following(as FCC put it) everytime I mention HD as being transmitted from DTV stations rather than say something like HD/DTV or "HD is digital TV"? --- Which again is accurate -- They are inherently tied together, and in the context of our discussion and my recent comments on this, they are NOT completely "different things" ....

Well, sure+ I conceed you are correct on that matter if that's what you're getting at .. But I don't think I will be doing that, as #1), it's difficult enough to compose hopefully at least somewhat "understandable" posts here as it is, and #2). I think almost everyone here who knows what the abbrevitions are which are used on this forum know what digital TV, DTV and HD mean and the differences between them ..... But, Sure sometimes we have to occasionally correct folks that think DTV "means" DirectTV (D* is the proper abbreivation used on this forum for DirecTV, E* for Dish network (echostar) .....


(Note: HDTV and digital TV are not the same thing -- HDTV is one format of digital TV.)

I was kinda able to get a picture on all the Dayton channels that I wanted, but it was fuzzy and not very good.


That probably sounds like poor analog OTA reception.


The signal meter on my tv showed nothing higher than low 20s on any of the stations. any suggestions?


Assuming the signal meter is showing a "reading" for digital stations from which the signals are not quite good enough to acheive a lock+decode the datastreams ... the good news is, It is possible Those readings could be fairly close to what is needed for OTA DTV/HDTV reception .. Difficult to say, as I don't know what receiver you're using/am not familar with the E*(dish network) receivers ...

The bad news is, If you can't get it to work indoors with any digital station with that antenna in any spot you can try it in(you might want to try it temporarily outside if possible with few or no obstructions in the direction of transmitters and see what you get as well), and it's not something along the lines of something being "hooked up wrong" or not "set properly"(such as to tune in or "scan for" digital OTA stations - which BTW can take some time -- You don't want to be "moving the antenna around" while trying to tune in the digital stations, it generally takes a while for your receiver to find+decode the signals the first time) -- I'd guess chances are also probably good you won't be able to get it to work with all digital stations you want reception of with any antenna, indoors .... But, OTOH it is possible an amp and a "better" antenna(Cm4221 wouldn't be a bad choice for UHF) could help you out considerably ....

Can you post/attach to your message the signal prediction results for your location from the www.tvfool.com website I suggested you try earlier in this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11611833&postcount=7967) ? Input an antenna height of about 10feet if you want ...

That might help us/give us a better idea of the signal conditions at your location and what we might want to suggest .....

Otherwise, afriad I can't offer many more suggestions than I already have in the post I referred to above. Do keep in mind, it's awfully difficult in some cases to "know" exactly every issue that might be involved+causing you problems if we are not there+seeing "exactly" what you're doing .. So take these suggestions with a "grain of salt" as they "deserve" ...


Im afraid if the next option doesn't work, i will have to eat the $240 cancellation fee and be in the doghouse for who knows how long...being able to watch HD football games would probably be worth it, but id like to avoid that situation...

again, im now looking for something to rig up in the attic, i think id rather eat the cancellation fee than to get up on my roof. ill be putting the antenna above my garage so that im only pointing through siding and wood, rather than wood and shingles. help!

As I noted in my other post, if you don't achieve success indoors and don't want to "go up on the roof" yourself(You do need to know what you're doing, BTW) --- again here : this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11611833&postcount=7967) ) -- You can hire a professional OTA installer to "go up on the roof" for you .... I think last I heard from someone who used TNT pictures for an OTA antenna install, the price was less than what you say your cancellation fee would be .... That might have changed however, and may vary depending upon circumstances involved ... Jimp2244 could probably tell you more via PM, as he used those guys for his OTA antenna setup ...

Also, *do* keep in mind that the longer the coax run the more attenuation of signal occurs "within" the coax .... Could be an issue especially indoors if your dealing with weak signals(due to the very significant amount of attenuation resulting from having antenna indoors vs outdoors as well as any terrain obstuction issues along the signal path) +without an amplifier placed near antenna to recover the losses in the coax ....

Hope something in there helps, good luck ....

Here's the tvfool output:
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/5651/radardigitalbc0.png

hey jeff.. can I get a cliff's notes version of your posts :)

hey jeff.. can I get a cliff's notes version of your posts :)

Post #7988 was my attempt at writing Cliff notes for him :) I don't think he took it that way tho :(

fafner

VHF-Hi is the sweet spot for DTV just as VHF-Lo was for analog.

VHF-Lo (2-6) are plagued with many noise sources that can kill DTV reception such as electric motors, light switches, and analog modulators in consumer equipment. Antennas for these channels are very large and cumbersome and "look ugly". While VHF-Lo requires the least amount of power to cover the same area as a VHF-Hi or UHF station using an more power, the penetration of cable/satellite negates that gain.

VHF-Hi has less noise sources and requires more power that UHF-Lo but has most of the propagation advantanges of VHF-Lo. Most UHF antennas will preform quite well on VHF-Hi so its an easier option for people who want to use an OTA antenna.

UHF requires the most power and until DTV required tube transmitters to get any real power. Some stations like KET are running solid state transmitters that while not as power efficient at high power (above 15 kW TPO DTV power) as tube units are very attractive in the 50-200 kW ERP range due to the maintenance costs.

Most of our 50-60 kW DTV stations are running about 3.2 kW out of the transmitter with the ERP power being made up by the antenna gain.

UHF antennas are very small and have lots of antenna gain compared to the VHF -Lo antennas.

Remember to the stations for the most part power = expenses, coverage = prospective revenue source.