Cincinnati, OH - HDTV [Text View] - Page 33

Nitewatchman

09-14-07, 10:25 PM

Sorry for all the posts, below+don't mean to interrupt current conversation, as had these posts composed "beforehand" and it seemed slow earlier -- was going to combine them, but seemed to make more sense to post them individually ....

Here's the tvfool output:

Disclamier first: Again, take all of this with a large grain of salt. As I said in earlier post, there are MANY factors which can effect OTA reception. It's extremely difficult to try to predict your results or what antenna would work "well enough" or would be best via an internet post with the info available, and with any given antenna/placement of antenna, and Especially so with antenna indoors. Even more difficult(for me anyway) to do it in a "short" post. But in case it helps any ...

Based on predicted signal strength from that site alone, it appears to me you should have some sort of shot of reception with indoor antenna of the "main" cincinnati or Dayton stations you're interested in - Especially Cincinnati, but really probably some of the Dayton stations as well, well at least one of them -- Looks like WDTN-DT should be the strongest signal from Dayton, which makes sense for various reasons ....

WKOI(TBN) digital(and analog) should especially be coming in like gang busters. I know you're previous comments suggest your not interested in that one, but aiming the antenna that way and seeing what you get might tell you something useful. It's tower is just off 73 between Trenton+oxford, near intersection of 127+73 -- You can't miss it if you ever drive out that way .... I'd think You shouldn't need a amp for WKOI, but otherwise, I suppose an amp could help you out a bit, especially with the antenna indoors, and perhaps especially if you have a long coax run between the antenna+receiver.

Assuming everything is "working and hooked up correctly and you are tuning and/or "scanning" for digital OTA signals "correctly", and given you tried to find a "good spot" for antenna -- I must say I'm a bit surprised your earlier report seems to indicate you haven't achieved a signal lock/reception from ANY digital station -- Particularly WKOI-DT, but from at least some of the stations on the TVfool list at least about down to WDTN-DT as well.

That being said, for the best chances of better reception results overall, including the likelyhood of getting good, reliable, dropout free reception 24/7 365 days a year from the stations you want to receive, based mostly on what you've described so far regarding your results with Terk HDTVi, I think it's probably likely that a properly installed outdoor antenna setup would be a very good idea. Although certianly that "goes without saying" and should be fairly obvious in almost any circumstance when the first try with a indoor antenna with some gain+directivity, and moving it "around" to different spots doesn't do the trick --- Someone looking for "cliff's notes" of course wouldn't even need to read that<g>, but there it is anyway in case it's of any use to you ....

Do Keep in mind the TVfool list is only a useful general tool to provide you with a general idea of what the signal strengths may be at your location. So, It Shouldn't be assumed to be providing anything in any exacting detail -- It does however take Terrain obstructions into account, but doesn't take into account such things as attenuation by trees, attenuation or additional multipath issues by having antenna indoors(the amount which can be very 'specific' to the construction materials used in your house), or the signal gain of antenna/loss in feedline/splitters etc. As I'm sure you've read in the info provided on the website -- 1edge for example indicates you have some terrain obstruction issue, but it really shouldn't be much of a problem according to the predicted signal strengths, although in my experience with this particular site so far it is possible it could be a bit worse than what the signal prediction shows. -- LOS=Line of sight.

Nothing wrong with DIY(it can be fun, it's the only way I've ever done it), but if you decide to use installer, I'd bet TNT pictures can probably set you up. I think Unless you go with a fine homebrew antenna such as Splicer010 posted info on earlier, and/or have enough coax laying around, a DIY install can easily run you ~$200 or more, and going the pro-OTA antenna installer route would be withoout the hassle or frustration of messing with it yourself if you run into problems, and with beneifit of a experienced installer.

In any case - be sure to let us know how it turns out.

Nitewatchman

09-14-07, 10:26 PM

But yeah, I went through all the setups, and there's actually not even mention of antenna or cable/hrc. There's an antenna button on the remote but it doesn't do anything when i press it. there's only one coax input on the back of the TV.

If the TV is a "cable ready" model, I'd think it has to have some sort of way to "select" between scanning OTA or cable frequencies/channel #'s. It's possible it could be done "automatically", but do keep in mind if it uses a user selectable menu option what it "says" in the setup menus may differ from what we are usually used to seeing.

IF it does it *automatically* -- I can offer this -- I have one TV here which does this "automatically" in a sense ... It's a bit strange ... If you hook up it's "rod" antenna(included with small TV) -- which only provides a connection to the CENTER conductor of the RF input(female F connector "coax" connection) -- Then it Scans OTA channels/frequencies. In this case, the outer conductor is not used -- It's just a little rubber non-conductive "cup" with no "wire" connected to it that contacts the outer conductor of the female f-connector on back of TV(where the "threads" are on it.) and the rubber "cup" holds the antenna connection in place ...

If, however you hook up a male F connector(such as the "end" of your coax run from antenna) to it, it Scans Cable frequencies - Doesn't matter if it's "actually" an antenna hooked up to it+you "need" OTA, if it "detects" a connection on the outer conductor(with a completed circuit I assume "through" the antenna - don't remember what might happen if you just hook up a short piece of coax which is "open" at the other end) it "assumes" you are hooking up cable TV to it and scans cable frequencies .... BUT, along the lines of something I said earlier, it does "find" the OTA UHF stations when it scans "cable" frequencies, just on channel 65~125 instead of where they actually are, channel 14~69. For instance, WXIX 19 analog "shows up" on channel 70. Here's a handy list of what channels (OTA and cable) use what frequencies/etc :

http://www.csgnetwork.com/tvfreqtable.html

So, what I can do with it is, hook up the "rod antenna", scan for channels(puts it in "OTA mode") then can hook up a "better" antenna(that utilizes both conductors of the coax - well, "sort of" more or less) -- and manually "add" channels to the list that weren't found with the rod antenna ...

Also note that that sort of thing (analog UHF OTA showing up when scanning "cable" channels, but just on different channel #'s) does NOT work on any of my receivers for various reasons for UHF digital. Oddly enough though, if I hook up a antenna to my Sony KD34XBR960's HDTV's "Cable" input --- It does find VHF WCPO-DT and decodes it fine ... Just not any UHF digital stations(it does find UHF OTA analogs on ch 65~125). Which I thought was interesting, as I would have assumed its cable RF input would only "work" for digital with QAM(signal modulation used for digital cable, 8VSB is used for OTA digital). It has a seperate VHF/UHF "antenna" input for OTA digital+analog, you select between the two by pressing "ANT" on the remote .....

i might try a different TV.

Sounds like that might be a good idea as well ... At least, assuming the different TV "works ok" on OTA UHF, that should at least hopefully tell you if the problem is "in the TV" your currently using, or with the feed from the antenna (VHF only amp or VHF/UHF seperator or something in line somewhere/etc -- If that's a possibility, such as if it is a possibility one you may not know about is hidden behind a wall or something ... )

-------------------------------------

Nitewatchman

09-14-07, 10:30 PM

Before posting this one Should point out something of importance some may not realize -

-- Keep in mind some of the folks in the biz who post here are limited by rules involving their employer such that in some cases they are not "allowed" to directly respond to an indivdual poster ..... .... I don't know if I suceeded, but I did try my best to word the following so it is "fair" in that context and can be responded to "indirectly" if necessary or desired .. Hopefully that's good enough as we certianly don't want to lose these folks ....

Most UHF antennas will preform quite well on VHF-Hi so its an easier option for people who want to use an OTA antenna.

Certianly agree most UHF antennas will perform better on Hi-VHF than Lo-VHF, and agree they'll work fine on hi-VHF for many folks where a relatively strong VHF-HI signal is present at the receive antenna location, which can often be the case ...

Nevertheless CM4228 is the only UHF antenna I'm aware of that performs much better than "rabbit ears" on Some VHF-HI channels, and there seem to be few UHF antennas which work "about as good" as rabbit ears on hi-VHF. Regarding the UHF antenna models they provide info on, the info in the "Using a UHF antenna for VHF" near bottom of the following page seems to agree with this :

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

For those interested, a comparision with the gain chart immediately above the "UHF antenna for VHF chart" for some antennas actually designed for VHF may be useful as well.

It seems possible to me a number of folks having reception problems with WCPO-DT 10 are trying to use UHF antennas(especially UHF antennas placed indoors) to receive them. Or are locating their receive antennas in places that may be especially susceptable to interference from various household applicances. While usually more of a problem on VHF-LO, I think that sort of interference is also still more of a problem on VHF-HI than UHF, in my experience anyway. Then sometimes they seem to wonder why they have no problems with the UHF stations but have problems with WCPO, or even in some cases seem to think it's the "stations fault". Of course, for now -- Since it is co-located they can check analog WCPO 9 for interference, ghosting or weak signal and perhaps to some extent get a good idea of the sorts of reception "conditions" involved for the DTV signal on 10.

I would also speculate Hi-VHF stations running 30~60KW ERP such as WKYT-DT 13 or WSYX-DT 13 helps a bit vs. the perhaps more common(at least after analog shut off) ~15KW ERP HI-VHF power levels such as WCPO is running(16.3KW ERP) ...Yes, it's only a few db or so more than WCPO is running, but I suspect every little bit can help with DTV in some(or many) cases if you're trying to use a UHF antenna for VHF-HI, and especially from indoors. Also suspect, to some small degree being on 13, a little higher on the dial probably helps them a bit regarding folks using most UHF antennas for VHF ....

Suspect many folks who are achieving good, or at least somewhat decent results with small settop indoor UHF antenna setups may be doing so with relatively weak signals present at receive antenna location. Reports of "snowy" or quite "fuzzy"/poor analog reception from some of these folks in some cases seem to indicate this is at least a possibility. 4~6db of gain on UHF from from a silver sensor may cut it for them for the UHF stations, but expect they may need the likely better performance of at least "rabbit ears" for VHF(and/or placing the antenna in a "good spot" so that it doesn't pick up "interference" from various household applicances) ... In other words, I suspect it's possible some of those having problems with that sort of setup receiving VHF-HI digital stations may be very close to acheiving reception of stations such as VHF WCPO-DT, but may just not be quite able to get there with many UHF only antennas, at least from indoors ....

In any case, hopefully we'll see more hi-VHF/UHF antenna designs. Such as the Antennacraft HBU22 (http://www.antennacraft.net/HBU22.htm) mentioned earlier.

Antennas for these channels are very large and cumbersome and "look ugly".

Personally, I don't see them that way. However -- Unless you want to use it for FM -- In cases when there are* no desired local lo-VHF signals to receive -- for most folks in that situation they're certianly not needed. In those cases, there is really no reason for the Lo-VHF reception capability I can think of other than they(VHF/UHF combo variety) are often the only antennas that provide good performance on VHF/UHF that are available at many antenna sellers. Just wish we had more good HI-VHF/UHF combo antenna designs widely available/to chose from for folks who don't need or want the lo-VHF reception capability.

* - Or won't be - which is impossible to say at this point regarding any future digital stations that might sign on the air.

Some(probably most) of the low-VHF elements on TV antennas out there do seem rather flimsy however, and in some cases are probably not too difficult to be damaged by bad weather(ice/high winds).

Do agree they(any antenna really, although it seems to be more common to see antennas that have been up for a while with lo-VHF sections on them to have this "problem") do sometimes look "ugly" if they are improperly installed, are on "bent" masts, have severely damaged or bent up elements/etc ....

Other than what I'm commenting on here, Agree with the remainder of your post 100%, and as allways appreciate all of your and others in the "biz" comments and input.

----------------------------------------------------------------

On another note, not really meant to be "related" to my response to William's post (but "similar enough" subject matter I thought that I could combine it with this post rather than post yet ANOTHER seperate post ....)

Speaking of interference --- another "interesting" type of Interference I've noticed on HI-VHF seems to involve spurious signals coming from one of my FM receivers here. With no antenna whatsoever hooked up to it's antenna terminals+with it isolated from all other equipment ... Tune it to 92.5MHZ(doesn't matter if WOFX is "coming in" or not) and spurious RF from it creates "noise"(herringbone pattern=FM interference) on WKRC 12(analog), even on a TV in another room/on another floor of house.

Its being "generated" by the FM receiver and being picked up by my outdoor antenna(some 20 feet above and 40 feet away from it) -- have confirmed it isn't ingress into the coax, or being picked up "inside a TV" due to poor RF shielding there, and can "aim" antenna at the FM receiver(more or less, except for it being 20 feet above it) + see the "worst" effect. Same thing happens on channel 11 at about 88.9~89.7 MHZ, and Channel 13 94.9~95.3MHZ. If I put a short piece of wire as an antenna on the FM receiver, I can move the wire around a bit and increase the amount of interference. The same thing happens with another FM receiver to a lesser degree, but it isn't a problem as it is farther from the antenna.

One might expect spurious transmission from a very neaby hi-power FM transmitter to effect those frequencies(or similar), and or somewhat similar things to happen with a amp or front end of "TV" receiver overloaded with nearby signals but this is coming from an FM receiver, even when no or weak signal is being received by it on those frequencies ....

Nitewatchman

09-14-07, 10:39 PM

(Tonight was the first time I've checked 84 since then).

I was wondering about that, glad you posted that info .... I hadn't looked at it either with KET4 in HD mode since then, BTW ...

I should add also ... I can't tell you "for sure", as never paid that much attention to these "details" before --- but until I started looking at it*+posting/attaching the HTML export files, I can't remember getting the issue where it "hung" on the "missing PMT's" (47 seconds or so to get to the "video decode" thumbnails) before.

* - And it was probably weeks or months before that time since I had actually "looked at it" with TSreader between 8pm~12am, because although I often use TSreader to look at the EPG info from the EITs to see what is on in the evening on KET, I usually do that in the late afternoons or evenings. For KET4 HD especially --as the receiver's I "normally" use to watch TV don't show a program guide grid, one only shows the programming info on the current program -- not to useful if you want to see what's on ahead of time ----

Splicer010

09-14-07, 11:09 PM

Hmmm...

Nitewatchman's cap would seem to indicate 'the change' is coming from the WCVN OTA signal, rather than something TWC did.

Perhaps something got (re)set when WCVN shut down for the tower maint?? (Tonight was the first time I've checked 84 since then).

I checked last nite and there was nothing untill midnight when I got to watch the rest of Jay Leno...

plughplover

09-14-07, 11:52 PM

I checked last nite and there was nothing untill midnight when I got to watch the rest of Jay Leno...

So it seems the WCVN signal changed sometime today (Friday)...

Ball's back in your court William...

(I wonder if someone in one of the other 'city' threads could do a cap and tsreader analysis of a differant KET transmitter)

edit: I've posted requests in the Lexington and Louisville threads

Nitewatchman

09-15-07, 02:53 PM

Plughplover,

first, keep in mind, might take a while for William to get back to us on that ... Hopefully he does get a weekend off every now and then ...

However it happened, I'm glad it did as It does answer one question we were interested in regarding your+splicer010 receivers chipset/firmware design. Hopefully if the issue ever comes up again for some reason(including the possibility regarding different channels/program services/etc) in the distant future, we'll be able to remember it ;)

Might be interesting to find out if it would work w/o the PMTs and with the service location descriptor in CVCT as well, [update] and if your receiver would do channel remapping if it was there.

Concerning getting a Tsreader HTML export from another KET transmitter --- I've allways thought a "KET specific" thread in this area would be a good idea given their transmissions involve multiple markets and covers areas not only in KY but bordering states. But I don't suppose it fits the organization of this forum area -

Would be interesting to see it, hopefully someone will post one. I'm not sure if anyone in the KY threads is running TSreader or not, I don't monitor the Louisville thread as much as Lexington. Well, besides me, see my WKYT Lexington TSreader HTML file I recently posted on the 1st post of page before your post in Lexington thread - They recently started sending TWO 720p HD streams - one for CBS HD, one for CW HD.

There are other KY threads as well, but those two are probably your best bets I'd think.

Also, WKON (KET owenton, KY) should be receivable by many in the Greater Cincinnati or N KY area. Especially probably N KY. I get WKON analog on 52 here to some extent at all times, but only occasionally the DT station.

I also occasionally receive several of the KET Digital transmitters when enhanced signal propagation(troposperic scattering or ducting) occurs. Problem is we haven't seen a lot of "enhanced signal propagation" lately. But if I get a chance, and it "happens" between 8pm~12am next time some of the other KET digitals are coming in and I happen to be "monitoring for DX" I'll get a capture of it ... Probably mostly involving distance or co or adjacent channel issues, the ones I seem to see most often are WKON-DT 44 owenton, WKLE-DT 42 Lexington, WKPC-DT 17 Louisville or WKMR-DT 15 Morehead ...

since I got the PC tuner card, I had "planned" to "collect" TS's from distant stations when they are coming in. But I've been a bit "lazy" about that, and generally when "dx'ing" when conditions allow, it's more fun to look for the most distant stations and stations I haven't seen before instead of capturing streams from stations I've seen a lot or are not that distant .... Also, the way I currently have it set up I get a little more signal on the receiver(Zenith HDV420 STB) I usually use for "dx'ing" -- it seems to have a little better front end - better sensitivity/selectivity as well than my PC tuner card .... I do have a few of them though ...

Attached farther below is Tsreader(GUI) screenshot of reception of WDEF-DT 47 here, Chattnooga TN (311 Miles) from 8/14/07 .... It wasn't coming in quite good enough to get a "clean" TS file, I did decode perfect video from it for several minutes on the Zenith receiver however.

----------------------------------------------------------------

All,

That reminds me -- quick correction to an earlier post -- I mentioned something about Louisville VHF DTV stations and the situation there before/after analog shut off ... Think I said there was a "top 4 network affilate with DTV/HD on VHF currently In Louisville or something along those lines as included with the other VHF HD stations in area ... That is incorrect -- Correction is, right now there is ION DTV affiliate on VHF 8 in Louisville, after analog shut off, ABC HD affiliate WHAS-DT will be moving to VHF 11. Their digital is currently on 55, out-of core channel, analog is on 11 .... Channel remapping can be "confusing" sometimes, I'm so used to seeing it "show up" on my receiver as "11.1", hence my earlier error ...

tbenson81

09-15-07, 03:38 PM

Nitewatchman

09-15-07, 03:45 PM

This is pathetic. I just love missing the Tennessee vs Florida game so I can watch UC and Miami 47-10

I dont know who is running the show at these stations but it seems like nobody knows what they are doing here in Cincinnati

This is a joke........

Tony

Funny, I think it's great, as it gives me another programming option. I can watch Tennessee Florida game in HD on WHIO-DT Dayton, or the UC/Miami game on WKRC 12 ...

Thanks for showing a game of particular local interest WKRC :)

plughplover

09-15-07, 04:32 PM

Plughplover,

first, keep in mind, might take a while for William to get back to us on that ... Hopefully he does get a weekend off every now and then ...

Yeah, not expecting an immediate response, just a prompt for when he checks in...
However it happened, I'm glad it did as It does answer one question we were interested in regarding your+splicer010 receivers chipset/firmware design. Hopefully if the issue ever comes up again for some reason(including the possibility regarding different channels/program services/etc) in the distant future, we'll be able to remember it ;)

Might be interesting to find out if it would work w/o the PMTs and with the service location descriptor in CVCT as well, [update] and if your receiver would do channel remapping if it was there.

Agreed; the CVCT thing is still 'active' with TWC (as far as I know). And it should be noted that the current situation would mean we'd still lose wlwt next time wcvn goes off-air (or vice versa? hmmm). But it does seem to confirm (1) sending PMT streams without ESs is 'ok' (2) our chips/sets _really_ want / expect to find Stream Types and PIDs for the programs listed in the PAT. The fact that they 'fail' the way they do is poor firmware design (and I still intend to follow-up with LG before my warranty expires).

Would be interesting to see it, hopefully someone will post one. I'm not sure if anyone in the KY threads is running TSreader or not,

I do too, though without _past_ captures to compare against they will provide limited opportunity to draw conclusions from them. I.E. -

If only wcvn has pmt streams, we CAN conclude this is something going on there,

But if all of them have pmt streams, all we can say is either (1) wcvn's previous signal was anomalous and is now correct or (2) something has changed at the source (which William seemed to deny - but perhaps some other change caused this as a side-effect).

Will be interesting to see if yesterday's results will hold for the next few days...

dc10forlife

09-15-07, 05:06 PM

This is pathetic. I just love missing the Tennessee vs Florida game so I can watch UC and Miami 47-10

I dont know who is running the show at these stations but it seems like nobody knows what they are doing here in Cincinnati

This is a joke........

Tony

Let's see .... air a game featuring two local teams or air a game featuring two non-local teams?

Now perhaps you have a case for them simulcasting or multicasting the games -- e.g. put the MU vs. UC game on 12-2 or on the analog channel and put the SEC game on 12-1.

Splicer010

09-15-07, 08:20 PM

WLWT works again this evening.:D

blbrodbeck

09-15-07, 11:01 PM

On TWC QAM in Cincy, WSTR-DT is now being remapped to 64-1.

CincyKev

09-16-07, 02:00 AM

I'm not sure how long all analog video signals that were analog at some important point in the "signal chain" (so to speak) will be a thing of the past from all TV ... probably never, including for some material that is NTSC analog Composite SD video .... For instance, they may have been/may be transferred to a digital storage format, but Episodes of "All in the Family" will never be "completely" digital, IMO, as they were captured to an analog format ...

I find this perspective interesting. Would you elaborate more?

Aren't the sensors in all digital cameras converting analog signals to digital signals? Doesn't the intensity of the light cause the pixels in the camera sensor to register a wide range of voltages which the software in the camera converts to an RGB, or CMYK (or other color model) value? Wouldn't your premise above then indicate that nothing yet captured is really digital even though it's being stored in a digital format?

terryfoster

09-16-07, 08:07 AM

Let's see .... air a game featuring two local teams or air a game featuring two non-local teams?

Now perhaps you have a case for them simulcasting or multicasting the games -- e.g. put the MU vs. UC game on 12-2 or on the analog channel and put the SEC game on 12-1.

The thing is the game lacked any interest by the time the Tenn/Florida game kicked off. There was no way Miami was coming back. I like the local interest coverage, but I would think their national affiliation would have taken precedence over a special rebroadcast deal they made with Disney.

But, then again 20/20 hindsight shows the Tenn/Florida game proved to be a blowout in the end too.

Splicer010

09-16-07, 08:30 AM

The ND/Mich game was a blowout as well...A good day for college games and I picked all the winners! Now if I had actually bet on any of these games they probably would have gone the other way...;)

jimp2244

09-16-07, 10:36 AM

The thing is the game lacked any interest by the time the Tenn/Florida game kicked off. There was no way Miami was coming back. I like the local interest coverage, but I would think their national affiliation would have taken precedence over a special rebroadcast deal they made with Disney.

But, then again 20/20 hindsight shows the Tenn/Florida game proved to be a blowout in the end too.

True, but if my team's game were listed as airing on a particular TV station, I would be extremely upset if they switched to airing another game, even if my game was a blowout. If the Bengals are beating the Browns 38-0 at the begnning of the fourth quarter, they still need to air the completion of the game.

Also as mentioned above, if you didn't want to watch UC/Miami (which also was airing on a Dayton station, WKEF 22 if I remember correctly) all you had to do was switch to WHIO to watch the Tennessee/Florida game. Same goes for WKEF if Dayton... just switch to WCPO.

Personally I love getting the extra game choices, especially when the Cincinnati and Dayton FOX and CBS affilliates show different NFL games on Sunday.

plughplover

09-16-07, 01:05 PM

On TWC QAM in Cincy, WSTR-DT is now being remapped to 64-1.

Yes, it seems TWC 'fleshed out' the stream;
has EIT/EPG, STT time info, etc. now too.

Attached contains an 'old' and 'new' cap.

I haven't brought it up here yet, but...

When TWC was prep'ing things on 8/28, I had no problems decoding 113.
When they went 'live' on 8/29, I stopped being able to decode it on my LG. :(
(I haven't brought it up before, as I wanted to resolve the twc84 thing first)

Up until this change, 113 was the most 'bare-bones' stream I've seen. With the recent changes, now my set *tries* to decode it but only gives me occasional flashes of picture (or gives up and gives me 'No Signal').

My guess is *this* problem is 'vbv' related, though I haven't dug into it yet (will have to extract the mpeg2 and parse it to find out).

Sigh... will it never end...

jdhughes63

09-16-07, 01:08 PM

Splicer010

09-16-07, 01:24 PM

It is upconverted SD to 1080i. Same thing here on my system.

jdhughes63

09-16-07, 01:35 PM

It is upconverted SD to 1080i. Same thing here on my system.

So they are actually originating in SD. It would be nice when they can't afford HD if they could at least transmit in 16:9 aspect. If I zoom my picture, I lose at the top and bottom and if I stretch I get squatty fat people.

Splicer010

09-16-07, 01:39 PM

If it was stretched upconvert, people would bitch at CBS like they did at FOX when they did that last year trying to 'trick' folks into thinking they were watching HD.

jdhughes63

09-16-07, 01:46 PM

If it was stretched upconvert, people would bitch at CBS like they did at FOX when they did that last year trying to 'trick' folks into thinking they were watching HD.

At least my JVC panoramic setting is not just a pure stretch. It zooms just a tiny bit and electronicaly streches mostly on the edges and less in the center of the viewing field.

Doesn't look right if watching close ups of people. Their shoulders are malformed. But good for football.

mlbUC

09-16-07, 02:11 PM

This game was announced as SD a month ago.

As far as I'm concerned, southwest Ohio is not SEC country and a game pitting 2 local teams against each other should be the top priority. In Dayton WKEF switched to the OSU game, but that made total sense to me as OSU rules the roost up here. So count me in the group that says WKRC did the right thing.

Nitewatchman

09-16-07, 02:21 PM

Wouldn't your premise above then indicate that nothing yet captured is really digital even though it's being stored in a digital format?

Sure, if you look at it like that, IMO. For that matter, you'll never "see it" in "digital" anyway, as your eyes+brain are not seeing "digital" on a TV display and "interpeting" 1's and zero's. I suppose how our eyes see things can be defined as a "analog" thing ...

But, To be honest, I don't really think of light being captured on film or light falling on a CCD sensor in a digital camera as a "analog" or "digital" thing, but I suppose it could be defined as "analog" .... Are photons of sunlight, or photons of "RF energy" emanating from a transmitting antenna something to be considered either "analog" or "digital" ? If they are "analog" I can't think of it like that ....

My point was material originally captured to SD analog video tape formats will allways, at the very least suffer the quality issues associated with the original masters, and some of that stuff will be of interest for a long time.

tbenson81

09-16-07, 04:53 PM

If that didnt bother you yesterday, you are obviously not a sports fan.

Even if Miami or UC was my favorite team - nobody wants to watch the end of a 37 point blowout and miss half of the first quarter of a quality game with 2 ranked teams. I know most people up here in Ohio are oblivious to actual good sporting events because all they really know is the big 10 and thats it and now apparantely 2 worthless "local teams" such as UC and Miami.

I know people like Nightwatchman dont care, they are too busy calculating the angle of trajectory of their antenna, compenstating for wind sheer or measuring their signal loss with their trusty DB decoder.

Perhaps the WKRC people are still a little salty at the Gators for beating the crap out of the Buckeyes every time they play in every sport!

Again to all those who think WKRC did the right thing......I feel really bad for you, because you are most likely the typical sheltered (most likely Buckeye or Michigan fan) that understands nothing except your team and nothing of national relevance.

Tony

Nitewatchman

09-16-07, 05:12 PM

Commandment 3 from AVSforum 10 commandments :

3. Thou shalt remember that polite queries will elicit polite and helpful responses, likewise, that ranting and raving, bashing, and insults will prompt commensurate responses. Ye shall reap what ye sow.

------------------------------------------

I know people like Nightwatchman dont care, they are too busy calculating the angle of trajectory of their antenna, compenstating for wind sheer or measuring their signal loss with their trusty DB decoder.

What "ye shall reap what ye sow" can mean a lot of things. One of those things can be idiotic posts may simply be ignored completely ...

All 10 commandments are available here along with the other rules and disclaimers that apply to posting on this forum :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/rules.html

tbenson81

09-16-07, 05:20 PM

Ill be sure to check that out

FYI to MLBUC - geographically speaking, Lexington is the closer than both Columbus and Indiana to Cincinnati and what conference is kentucky in?

thats right the SEC. So if you consider this big 10 country - you can consider it just as much SEC county.

Bubster

09-16-07, 05:26 PM

Damn, is there some way to ignore individual people on this forum software?

Nitewatchman

09-16-07, 05:29 PM

Bubster,

Yep -- Use the "buddy/ignore list" option in the User Control panel ....

tim99

09-16-07, 05:30 PM

I'm a Gator fan by birth and you'd be hard pressed to find a 'bigger' college football fan so you can be sure I was chomping at the bit for them to switch over.

But I don't think the decision is that easily made. There are contractual and advertising obligations to fulfill plus fans of the local game can make the case they still have an interest in watching. Who knows what great plays their favorite players might make, or maybe a rare chance to see younger players, etc.

But on the other hand I can guarantee you that most of not all college football fans at the station who had access to both feeds was watching UF/TN regardless of any skin they had in the first game.

And as usual I don't the decision was really based on what anyone would want to do. Local commercial slots on the local game comes to mind. I really doubt the recent whuppin’s had much to do with the decision but it IS still fun to bring that up :D

A sidebar: You can follow a lot of games that aren’t on tv for free via Yahoo Sports radio.

Peace . . .

tbenson81

09-16-07, 05:42 PM

You guys can ignore me if you want, but the sad part is , most of you know that I am right.

i have lived in many different cities and if all of those affiliates can use their better judgment - Cincinnati should be able to as well

I can guarantee.......guarantee that 90% of viewers or more would of rather them switch games

Nitewatchman

09-16-07, 05:44 PM

But I don't think the decision is that easily made. There are contractual and advertising obligations to fulfill plus fans of the local game can make the case they still have an interest in watching. Who knows what great plays their favorite players might make, or maybe a rare chance to see younger players, etc.

Yep ... I agree.

Again, as I said before, what is nice in this area is you can often receive the "other game"(or whatever network programming is preempted by programming of local interest) you're interested in from affiliates in other nearby markets via OTA.

For example, All it took for me yesterday to watch the SEC game in HD was to press a button on the remote for my remote controlled A/B switch to switch to my Dayton antenna to watch CBS HD from WHIO-DT Dayton.

tbenson81

09-16-07, 05:58 PM

The point though Jeff - is that not everyone has that same option to pick up different feeds from 2 different cities.

Cincinnati, in my opinion, does not (definitely not on Satuday) do a good job of catering to what the vast majority of people want to see.

we can debate this all we want - its the same argument as weather breakins.

the vast majortiy of the public does not care about the little thunderstorm coming our way and doesnt want 24 / Prison Break / Survivor or whatever they watch broken in for to hear an update

and the vast majority doesnt want to see the end of a 37 point blowout

yeah - there could be a market for this - but they are definitely in the minority and the local affiliates need to find out and cater to the majority.

tim99

09-16-07, 06:13 PM

I agree, that is pretty cool for those that can.

I live in south Campbell county, I don't know if I can get Lexington or Dayton stations out here or not. I get all the Cincy stations via OTA but so far I haven't tried to get the other markets.

Yep ... I agree.

Again, as I said before, what is nice in this area is you can often receive the "other game"(or whatever network programming is preempted by programming of local interest) you're interested in from affiliates in other nearby markets via OTA.

For example, All it took for me yesterday to watch the SEC game in HD was to press a button on the remote for my remote controlled A/B switch to switch to my Dayton antenna to watch CBS HD from WHIO-DT Dayton.

Nitewatchman

09-16-07, 06:19 PM

I agree, that is pretty cool for those that can.

Most in this area can with the appropriate antenna setup. Even some folks in N KY(Northern parts) have reported receiving Dayton stations with INDOOR antenna. And as you mentioned, there's Lexington, also Louisville, Indy and to the "far east" Huntington/Charleston as well.

edit/update : Oh, almost forgot there are several things I like about it .. Sometimes different NFL HD games, CW HD from Dayton("full bandwidth, BTW), Local news from both markets(I've worked in Both Dayton+Cincinnati and are interested in stories from both markets) -- When a Dayton or Cincinnati station runs other programming/preempts network programming, I not only have the option of the "other" local programming, I also have the network programming(HD when available, which it won't be currently if it's run in a different time slot on the station prempting the programming) ... HD from one market if the other station has problems and doesn't pass through the HD feed, etc/etc/etc -- Not allways the case, but often no weather bugs/etc. from one market vs the other, DD 5.1 from WHIO/CBS HD Dayton ...... Having a OTA DVR via HTPC makes some of those things "nicer" as well ...

I live in south Campbell county, I don't know if I can get Lexington or Dayton stations out here or not. I get all the Cincy stations via OTA but so far I haven't tried to get the other markets.

Dayton might be a little tough from there, Lexington might be a little more of a possibility, though ....

dc10forlife

09-16-07, 08:50 PM

Again to all those who think WKRC did the right thing......I feel really bad for you, because you are most likely the typical sheltered (most likely Buckeye or Michigan fan) that understands nothing except your team and nothing of national relevance.

Tony

Wow, might I suggest that you fall into this category? Believe it or not but UC vs. Miami is the longest running non-conference rivalry in the country. They have been playing since 1888 ...... long before Florida even had a football team. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victory_Bell_(Miami-Cincinnati)

Cincinnati has a good football team this year, and could be vying for the Big East's bid to the BCS. Perhaps your SEC blinders have kept you from seeing this. I have no problem with cutting away from blowout games, but as others have posited, sometimes this is not contractually allowed.

I am a buckeyes fan, but I also like to watch rivalry games (including UC vs. Miami and Florida vs. Tenn). Maybe you could have an open mind as well.

Splicer010

09-16-07, 09:03 PM

i have lived in many different cities

As have I, and each and EVERY one favors a local team over and above ANY other team.

jimp2244

09-16-07, 09:34 PM

If that didnt bother you yesterday, you are obviously not a sports fan.
Does a real sports fan leave before the game is over?

Even if Miami or UC was my favorite team - nobody wants to watch the end of a 37 point blowout and miss half of the first quarter of a quality game with 2 ranked teams. I know most people up here in Ohio are oblivious to actual good sporting events because all they really know is the big 10 and thats it and now apparantely 2 worthless "local teams" such as UC and Miami.
The LOCAL team should take priortiy at all times and in all cases. It's that simple.

I know people like Nightwatchman dont care, they are too busy calculating the angle of trajectory of their antenna, compenstating for wind sheer or measuring their signal loss with their trusty DB decoder.
Not quite sure what a "DB decoder" is, but maybe if you paid a little bit more attention to him you'd have learned how to properly set up an antenna and been able to switch to WHIO to watch your SEC game. Not to metion if that game was so important to you, you should have made arrangements ahead of time to watch, whether it be on WHIO via antenna or by going to a sports bar.

tim99

09-16-07, 09:48 PM

Or Army/Navy for that matter, nothing quite like watching the ground pounders go after each other. I’m not a fan mind you but one thing I notice as a displaced Floridian living in Big 10 country is how intense the rivalries are. For example you could ask a UF fan ‘If the Gators were only going to win one game this year, which would you want it to be?’. Answers are going to be spread among Tennessee, Georgia and non-SEC rival FSU. And of course now you can add a few voices that will say ex-head ball coach Spurrier/South Carolina.

If you ask any Buckeye for the last million years the answer will be ‘Michigan’. Now that’s a rivalry.

I am a buckeyes fan, but I also like to watch rivalry games (including UC vs. Miami and Florida vs. Tenn). Maybe you could have an open mind as well.

tbenson81

09-17-07, 07:31 AM

I dont care what the game is

Florida vs FSU
Michigan vs OSU
Army vs Navy
OU vs Texas
Alabama vs Auburn

We can list the great rilvaries of all time - but are you really trying to argue that you enjoy watching a team run the clock out when they are up by 37 points?

Give me a break. Nobody cares about that

jimp2244

09-17-07, 07:36 AM

tbenson81

09-17-07, 09:33 AM

If you guys are happy with the way things are currently handled then more the power to you.

Just know that you are missing out

PS Jimp - I would never be at a UC vs Miami (why do they even have a football team) of Ohio game. If somehow I was and it was 47-10 and there was another game starting - you are damn certain I would be leaving the game. This argument doesnt make a lot of sense though because if you are at the game, its hard to find an alternative option. Myself and the greater Cincinnati viewing public should not of been deprived of a quality national matchup to a horrible, horrible local game

PPS Jim - I shouldnt have had to make arragements to watch UF / Tenn because it was slated to be on at 3:30 when it should have started and where 99% of other local affiliates would have started it especially if the game they had on in its place was a blowout.

I can see if it was UC vs West Virgina or UC vs Louisville. Perhaps an interesting Big East matchup. But this is Miami oh Ohio. Do you guys realize what you are defending here? Miami of Ohio! and the score was 47-10!

Tony

CincySaint

09-17-07, 11:11 AM

APorter

09-17-07, 12:06 PM

mlbUC

09-17-07, 01:14 PM

tbenson, seriously, get a grip. Only the first quarter of the game was missed. As others have said, local should come before non-local games.

If you really want to get into whether they should show Big 10 or SEC games in Cincinnati, maybe you should check out the ratings. I don't know what they are either, but if you found that SEC games out draw B10 games in the Cincy market you may have an argument. Personally, I'd be very surprised if that were the case. There are a lot of Michigan and Ohio State fans in the area, not to mention Notre Dame. I would then venture a guess the other 3 fan bases in Cincy would be UC, Miami, then maybe Kentucky fans (thus, the smallest conference audience would be the SEC audience).

As far as talking about decent teams in the area, UC is on the verge of being ranked for the first time in 50 years. You can't tell me there isn't a lot of local interest here. Also, as APorter stated above, historically Miami has been very good in football.

Lastly, as for being a sports fan, I have the game plan and FSN package so I can catch as much football as possible this year. At the time of your so called great game (which turned out to be a blowout) there were a ton of great games just completing (both on the gameplan and on the Big 10 network). If you were a true sports fan you wouldn't be clamoring to see the beginning of a game (unless it was YOUR team) but instead the end of a number of games that were coming down to the last play of the game. As for me, my team is Cincinnati and I had the PIP going with the ends of other games right beside my UC feed. There was no UT vs Florida game in site, as it just wasn't the most interesting game going on at that moment.

jim tressler

09-17-07, 03:03 PM

can I just say... Go Browns!!!!

Splicer010

09-17-07, 03:09 PM

can I just say... Go Browns!!!!

Not in this thread...;)

jimp2244

09-17-07, 03:23 PM

can I just say... Go Browns!!!!
No, you may not. :mad:

jim tressler

09-17-07, 03:29 PM

what a great day to be a Browns fan in Cincinnati!! Gotta love karma.. all morning my phone was ringing with bengals fans saying how bad they were gonna kick our a$$... then as the game went on, the phone didnt ring as much.. and by the end of the game.. nothing.. so of course its my turn to call.. but wouldn't you know.. all those bengals fans wouldn't answer the phone.. lol GO BROWNS!!! at least we will win 1 game this year!

ScottA

09-17-07, 03:38 PM

I had an install from these guys on Tuesday of this week...

Anyway, a very friendly installer from TNT put up an antenna in the loft space above the garage, and now I have a rock solid signal. All the Cinci stations come in with great signal, and I can even pull in a pretty reliable WHIO and a slightly less good WDTN. All without any pre-amp. I'm especially pleased about WHIO, given WKRC's lack of DD5.1.

I'd definitely recommend TNT Pictures, and also encourage anyone who can to get a bigger antenna, even in the loft it makes a HUGE difference!

What was the approximate cost of the install and what antenna did they use? My rabbit ears work pretty well but I really miss seeing WCPO in HD.

// Scott A

tim99

09-17-07, 06:10 PM

Honestly that depends on whether a fan is more focused on their particular team or on what might be perceived as a 'good game'. Putting the shoe on the other foot as a Gator fan we have a lot vested in Tebow. If he gets hurt then its freshman Cameron Newton. PERSONALLY I would much rather get a chance to watch Cameron run a few series during mop up against Tennessee or even a weak team then I would watch the first part of the Cincinnati/Miami OH game.

So who's the TRUE fan? The one that wants to watch every single aspect of their team or the one that wants to watch the best game? Very subjective.

That said because I am a Gator fan I was wishing they would switch over too. But if you saw the # of local commercial slots they still had at the end of the game its pretty clear why they didn't do it. As I said I'm sure most people who had access to both feeds were watching UF/TN at that point, but the decision on what to put on the air had nothing to do with anyone's personal choice. So why make it about that?

I dont care what the game is

Florida vs FSU
Michigan vs OSU
Army vs Navy
OU vs Texas
Alabama vs Auburn

We can list the great rilvaries of all time - but are you really trying to argue that you enjoy watching a team run the clock out when they are up by 37 points?

Give me a break. Nobody cares about that

Nitewatchman

09-17-07, 07:10 PM

I meant to respond to this earlier, just remembered your post when a similar "issue" came up on antenna thread in hardware area ... Also, had to dig up an article on it so that you wouldn't just have to rely on "my word" about it ...

I use the Radioshack V-190 that comes in 2 pieces. The back piece is for channels 2-6 only so I just tossed it and only use the front half.

I'm glad you are (assumed) receiving VHF WCPO-DT just fine with it ...

However, I would not recommend that(unless perhaps you can easily "reattach" the VHF portion of antenna you got rid of if needed at a later time) or "clipping off" the low VHF elements of VHF/UHF combo antennas as doing so will very likely effect the design/performance of antenna overall, AND in many if not most cases the performance of the antenna on HI-VHF.

In short, This is because (especially if the VHF elements on the antenna are "swept forward" in a sort of "V" as is the case with the VU-190 - I used to use/have a VU-210 BTW and it was like this as well) many VHF/UHF combo antennas utilize a harmonic relationship between lo-VHF+Hi-VHF TV band frequencies to "utilize" the lo-VHF elements for Hi-VHF reception/performance.

For a more detailed and accurate explanation see the 4th+5th paragraph of the "Compairison shopping" section of the following article( Note: you'll probably want to read the entire article, however, it's a very good one regarding antennas for TV/DTV(including OTA HD) reception :

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/On-RF/antennas.shtml

navyblue2000

09-18-07, 08:45 AM

Well I checked channel 70 and wxix popped right up! checked a few others and found some random channels. Although that might not matter much now since we just got standard cable - we're shaving off about 30 bucks a month this way. So the antenna will probably just go directly to the one TV.

William Smith

09-18-07, 10:09 AM

blbrodbeck

09-18-07, 11:11 AM

plughplover

09-18-07, 11:34 AM

William, fyi...

I did another TWC cap last night (was checking if TWC had done anything with CVCT yet), and those three PMT streams (TWC PIDs 0x52, 0x70, 0x80) are still present. Attached...

Nitewatchman

09-18-07, 11:38 AM

KET update:

I stayed here last night and checked the WKON,WKSO, and WKLE DTV signals, none of these had the PMTs for KET3,5, and 6 after 20:00 until 00:00. I can't see WCVN-DT from here but the same signal feed WKON and then passes on to WCVN so I can see what is leaving Owenton.

William

William,

Check your PM ... I sent you (ftp) TS's from WCVN-DT Sunday Night(PMT for KET3,5+6 there -- PIDs at 0x0050, 0x0070, 0x0080) as well as august 25 ... (PMT for KET3, 5+6 Not there) .. Hopefully they are large enough files as I'm on dial up ....

NOTE : Also, there is a stream(TSreader says "unknown usage) at PID 0x0911(about 10kb/s) since Last friday which was not there before.

update: Forgot to mention : I checked WCVN-DT last night around 9pm as well .. PMTs for KET3, 5+6 were there as was the stream at PID 0x0911

Nitewatchman

09-18-07, 11:59 AM

Someone said in this forum that TWC doesn't alter the feed in anyway when they take a local digital channel & put it out over the cable. It should be the same quality & everything as the broadcasted show. So how come when I watch these channels via TWC Cincy QAM, the Electronic Program Guide info is all screwed up? If I use an antenna OTA the info is correct. The EPG is an important feature to me.

Now that TWC has dropped the Discovery HD theatre & TNT-HD in the clear, I think I'm better off using an antenna. After all with the antenna I can also get all of the channel 14s & channel 43s digital channels.

The PSIP requirements for cable are different than OTA (for detailed info see the info from FCC rules and from PSIP A65 whitepapers) ..

It's obvious from Plughplover's TSreader HTML files in comparision to what I'm seeing that TW sends some "different" PSIP info than what the stations send ... They're sending some different info(no service location descriptors) in a CVCT(cable virtual channel table) vs. what stations send in their TVCT(terrestrial Virtual channel table), and Via OTA I get full, detailed programming descriptions from PSIP EIT's, while it says "N/a" in the eits from all stations Plughplover has posted info for.

BTW, I'm wondering if WKOI (the 43.x station) is going to offer TBN HD when available. Last I heard, TBN was planning on offering HD by "4th quarter of 2007" ...

Also, you might have some luck with Dayton stations OTA if you aim your antenna that way.

BobbytheBeast

09-18-07, 12:37 PM

I just purchased a Sony HDX500 home theater for my SXRD TV. I knew the limitations of an HTIB but didn't want anything too elaborate. Dolby Digital 5.1 comes through fine from DVDs. However I am really confused about the audio I get from the local digital channels. I have TWC standard analog cable, but still get the local digital channels in-the-clear and/or OTA. I don't use a STB as the SXRD has the built in ATSC/QAM tuner. Analog audio is connected to the system via RCA cords, digital is connected via optical cord. Analog audio seems to work fine using Pro Logic II, but digital audio is confusing.
Can anyone explain to me how the local digital stations broadcast their digital audio signals? When shows are presented by the networks in DD 5.1, I get the 5.1 fine on WLWT-DT and WCPO-DT, but WKRC does not come through in 5.1. The biggest problem is when shows aren't presented in 5.1 (I assume they are DD2.1), then the home theater's digital audio connection - which takes precedence over the analog connection - can only output it as stereo. And turning on Pro Logic II or any other sound field setting, does no good since PLII only works on analog signals. No sound at all from the center speaker, nor the surround speakers on non-DD 5.1 digital broadcasts. For instance, watching the Tonight Show, I have to crank up the volume just to hear the conversation (no sound from center speaker) and then crank it back down when they play music. And that is true for anything from WKRC-DT, even when it is supposedly in DD 5.1. What's even more confusing, many times when a commercial comes on I'll get sound from the center and surround speakers.
Does anyone else experience this phenomenon? And, is WKRC-DT not passing through the DD 5.1 signal?

Splicer010

09-18-07, 12:50 PM

WKRC-DT is DD2.1...

Nitewatchman

09-18-07, 01:53 PM

Re : DD 2.0/DD 5.1 audio ....

First, WKRC-DT transmits DD 2.0 at all times, not DD 2.1(note that dolby digital audio is often also reffered to as AC-3 audio). I'm not positive, but don't think there is a DD 2.1 in the AC-3 "specs" that stations can send. Do note that the first number in dd x.x denotes the number of discrete "main" audio channels the number after the dot denotes the effects channel.

Several different things can be done .. for instance, Some stations switch between DD 2.0 and DD 5.1 depending upon the source material, some send DD 5.1 at all times and you only get 2 channel audio when DD 5.1 isn't available, some stations send DD 5.1 at all times but "simulate" surround sound from 2.0 sources when DD 5.1 isn't available. There are other possibilities as well.

I don't use a STB as the SXRD has the built in ATSC/QAM tuner. Analog audio is connected to the system via RCA cords, digital is connected via optical cord. Analog audio seems to work fine using Pro Logic II, but digital audio is confusing.
Can anyone explain to me how the local digital stations broadcast their digital audio signals? When shows are presented by the networks in DD 5.1, I get the 5.1 fine on WLWT-DT and WCPO-DT, but WKRC does not come through in 5.1. The biggest problem is when shows aren't presented in 5.1 (I assume they are DD2.1), then the home theater's digital audio connection - which takes precedence over the analog connection - can only output it as stereo. And turning on Pro Logic II or any other sound field setting, does no good since PLII only works on analog signals. No sound at all from the center speaker, nor the surround speakers on non-DD 5.1 digital broadcasts.

Different equipment handles these things differently, and there seems to be a wide range of possibilites concerning how different equipment can be set up.

For instance, I have Optical digital out from my Sony KD34XBR960 HDTV hooked up/mapped to the optical digital "TV/DTV input" on my HT audio receiver. The optical digital out is only "active"/used for it's internal ATSC/QAM(I only use ATSC/OTA). Via it's digital out, My Audio receiver works just fine for PLII surround decoding from DD 2.0 sources - I get dialoge/etc. out of center speaker+"surround sounds" out of the side/rear channel (some call them "rear" surrounds, but they're not), via PLII decoding but it's not "true" 5.1 discrete channels.

This HT receiver allows you/I have it set up to switch automatically between DD 2.0+providing PLII surround decoding when DD 2.0 (or analog) signal is present(I can set it to output only 2 channel stereo audio as well if I want), and DD 5.1 when it's present. It also can be set(as I normally do) to "automatically" switch between analog input(in this case the "TV/DTV" analog audio input) from the TV and the "TV/DTV" digital optical input depending upon what is "actively" outputting audio(when you switch between analog OTA and digital "channels" for example) but I can also make that switch "manually" and confirm that DD 2.0 (such as from WKRC-DT) is coming from the optical digital output from TV rather than via it's analog audio output. Perhaps however(sounds like) your TV may be working differently and converting DD 2.0 to analog audio, or something along those lines.

NOTE: I can't remember what the exact issue was, but from the Sony, there was a reason that I do use the analog audio output via the TV's "monitor out" jacks rather than it's "audio out"(variable or fixed) jack ... One little "weirdness" with this sometimes does still occur(but I do remember it's preferable to "whatever the issue was" using it's audio out jacks) when switching between inputs(or to/from the TV's 2nd analog only "PIP" tuner) on the TV, sometimes I have to "go back" to a digital OTA source with the TV's internal ATSC tuner and then back to say, the Svideo 1/audio input(where I have my dish network 311 SD only receiver connected) in order for my HT audio receiver to properly "autoswitch" to trying to use analog "TV/DTV" input rather than the "Tv/DTV" digital audio input(which of course will produce no audio if the source is analog) ... Or, I can manually switch the HT receiver to using the analog input ....

Hope that helps, perhaps there is some sort of way you can do it to get PLII surround decoding from DD 2.0 sources, as well as adjusting the levels(although they do vary widely from different stations+even sometimes from the same station) you haven't "found" quite yet ...

WebHopperWeasel

09-18-07, 02:10 PM

This is pathetic. I just love missing the Tennessee vs Florida game so I can watch UC and Miami 47-10

I dont know who is running the show at these stations but it seems like nobody knows what they are doing here in Cincinnati

This is a joke........

Tony

You don't honestly think we can just switch games locally because the game is going poorly. We have obligations to sponsors, advertisers and the viewers that are watching the currently scheduled game.

Weasel

WebHopperWeasel

09-18-07, 02:19 PM

What went wrong? Sunday afternoon and the Bengals are on TW 912 in SD and not in HD. I switched to OTA Dayton ch 7. Same thing, no HD.

My TV displays a 1081i notation for both 12 an 7 but it sure doesn't look like any 1080i picture I have ever seen.

It can't be the TW cable or the 2 stations. It must be a bad feed from the network. It says 1080i but it isn't.

You didn't have HD because CBS didn't provide us with a HD feed. Not every game is in HD. The local stations only have the ability to feed the viewers what Network provides us with.

Your seeing the display option tell you 1080i because of a few things. We upconvert the incoming signal to 1080i and add the black bars (no we can't/don't/won't change the color) because that is the standard. So what your getting from the station is a 4X3 SD signal upconverted to 1080i... the black bars are there because there is nothing to fill that area with.

When you getting a full screen image from us it is because the source (CBS/ESPN in special cases) is providing a full screen 16X9 HD signal that we turn broadcast and provide to the cableco, satelitte, etc providers.

Weasel

Splicer010

09-18-07, 02:21 PM

It very well may be only 2.0...My setup (Onkyo TX DS595) activates the .1 portion (the subwoofer) when watching (listening) 2.0 material.

Ratman

09-18-07, 02:49 PM

... as all systems may do depending on where you set your x-over point in the A/C reveiver or sub and... if the program has frequencies below the selected x-over point. But it is not encoded/broadcasted as "2.1".

jdhughes63

09-18-07, 03:46 PM

When you getting a full screen image from us it is because the source (CBS/ESPN in special cases) is providing a full screen 16X9 HD signal that we turn broadcast and provide to the cableco, satelitte, etc providers.

Weasel

I wonder why CBS won't /can't supply a 16x9 digital image even when it is not in HD. 16x9 seems to be the new format. I can adjust the set but either loose the top and bottom or get fat squatty people. Maybe it is because those with analog 4x3 stes would complain about bars top & bottom.

Ratman

09-18-07, 04:48 PM

If the program isn't 16:9, they won't supply it in 16:9. If they did... you'd get the same results as, "... loose (sic) the top and bottom or get fat squatty people".

plughplover

09-18-07, 06:02 PM

Just tried out the tvfool site; Nice!

They seem to have better data than antennaweb and their predictions seem spot on, at least for my location in Fairfield. They even 'know' that wpto-dt isn't in Oxford!.

They say all the dayton/northward stations are line-of-site for me (30+ miles away) but none of the Cincy stations are - they are all either 1 or 2 edge diffraction. To get WCVN (20 miles away, 2 edges) line-of-site it says I'd need an antenna 110 feet above ground. WSTR is my least impared Cincy station (8 miles, 2 edges) - would only need a 50 foot antenna for it.

All these predictions are _very_ consistent with my experiences living here on the north side of a hill in Fairfield.

Kind of interesting about the null in WBDT-DT's pattern - they too are LOS, but with an effective output of only 2kw in my direction, yeilding a -84dBm signal. Yet I get them with no dropouts whatsoever with a Silver Sensor in the attic of my two-story condo through ~20 feet of RG59 coax. Kind of surprised at that, but my set DOES show them as having a much weaker signal than the other dayton stations.

Its ironic - I need cable to get my 'local' stations, but a little antenna in the attic gets the 'remote' ones solidly. One of these days I may move to the top of this hill instead of being on its side...

Nitewatchman

09-18-07, 06:42 PM

Just tried out the tvfool site; Nice!

They seem to have better data than antennaweb and their predictions seem spot on, at least for my location in Fairfield. They even 'know' that wpto-dt isn't in Oxford!.

Oh, yes. The info used is taken (and updated) from FCC databases regarding stations current operating parameters(including such things as directional antenna patterns). A wise enginner, and AVSforum member Andy.S.Lee put that toghether, you'll find Threads on TVfool and his Longely-Rice Google Earth 3d coverage map overlays in Hardware area.

BTW, WPTO-DT has not had a construction permit for the location shown in Antennaweb info for many years -- They originally were going to put their DTV station there (on WKOI tower, BTW), but changed that to WXIX tower about 5 years ago or so. The record for the "old" site isn't even there in FCC records, anymore ... It "disappeared" as soon as FCC granted WPTO permission for their move to WXIX tower ....

They say all the dayton/northward stations are line-of-site for me (30+ miles away) but none of the Cincy stations are - they are all either 1 or 2 edge diffraction. To get WCVN (20 miles away, 2 edges) line-of-site it says I'd need an antenna 110 feet above ground. WSTR is my least impared Cincy station (8 miles, 2 edges) - would only need a 50 foot antenna for it.

I'm curious, Is that info(that you need antenna height 110ft above ground for WCVN) coming from the column that shows the The height needed for "-100dbm" signal ?

If it is, there certianly are some situations like that(or worse) in Cincinnati area as close to the "towers" as you are but ...

A common misconception is that you "need" LOS to acheive OTA reception -- That is not accurate at all --- You do not need LOS to acheive excellent reception. In the "right" circumstances with Low noise preamp+hi-gain outdoor antenna, reception should be possible with signal strengths listed on tvfool as low as ~-110~-120dbm, possibly lower.

Do keep in mind the info from that site on antenna heights/receivablilty are just general things(as are the predictions, BTW), they aren't meant to be assumed to be extremely "exact". In fact, I think mostly because of the "especially" general nature of the antenna height info, Andy WAS going to remove it from his plots, but many folks(including me) commented that they found that info useful so he left it ....

For my plot, for instance (with antenna at 35FT) it predicts -100dbm for WCVN-DT, the weakest local digital station currently on air(The LP's on the list aren't yet on air with digital BTW), via 2 edge diffraction. I receive it perfectly with my XG91 UHF antenna+CM7778 preamp, with ~10db of losses (splitters/VHF/UHF joiner/etc) between mast mount preamp+receiver and with usually 15~20db more overheadfor WCVN-DT -- Meaning, I can add an additonal 15~20db attenuation into feedline befoe losing a signal lock from WCVN-DT - exactly how much additional attenuation added into feedline it "takes" to lose reception from them depends on such things as leaves on trees or off, atmospheric conditions/etc .... I've actually seen it as strong as needing to add 30db extra atteunation to "lose a lock" from WCVN-Dt -- such as when the lexington stations are coming in as well via "tropo" ..

All other Cincinnati signals are shown as 1edge or 2edge in my plot, but with much stronger signal strengths than WCVN-DT. Most Dayton signals are LOS, but just "barely". I of course, receive them all perfectly ;)

I'm in a small, steep valley, if "LOS" were necessary for TV reception, I wouldn't be getting any OTA TV reception at all from Cincinnati .... In my circumstances it does however require a decent, outdoor antenna setup for good "snow free" analog reception, and for reception of relatively weak digital stations like WCVN-DT ...

Kind of interesting about the null in WBDT-DT's pattern - they too are LOS, but with an effective output of only 2kw in my direction, yeilding a -84dBm signal. Yet I get them with no dropouts whatsoever with a Silver Sensor in the attic of my two-story condo through ~20 feet of RG59 coax.
Kind of surprised at that,

Yes, very cool ... but Not really surprised ... As noted in the info, Signals as low as -90dbm or so on the list *can* be expected to be possible to be received by indoor antenna setup --- HOWEVER, there are so many possible factors involved, there's no way to say if they *will* be in any given case ....

but my set DOES show them as having a much weaker signal than the other dayton stations.

The only "reading" I have on any of my DTV receivers that really tells me much of anything about "signal strength" is a AGC reading on My Sony HDTV's "signal diagnostics" screen. The meter on it labeled "signal strength"(which it is NOT measuring, BTW) is really a "signal quality" meter and is looking at things like BER and will show "0" even if an exceptionally strong signal is present but if severe uncorrectable multipath is also present, and will show High readings if a relatively weak but "clean" signal, just a few db stronger than what is required for DTV reception is present.

The best way I have found (without the proper test equipment) to get an idea of how strong the signals are does require that mulitpath uncorrectable by receiver or interference isn't an issue .... If those aren't an issue, then you can see how much additional attenuation you can add into feedline until receiver loses a lock and get a good idea how strong the signals are ... That point on all DTV receivers where they can acheive "reception" and decode the streams is about 16DB S/N ... Without the gain of antenna*/preamp/losses in feedline taken into account, "Theoretically" judging from FCC tests on receivers I have seen, you'd probably need about -83~-86dbm signal at the receiver to achieve DTV reception ...

* or in some cases lower noise figure of an amp than the front end of receiver -- which in right circumstances can "set" the noise figure of the system so that it's "lower" than if you weren't using an amp - typically, DTV receivers NF are in the range of 6~10db(again that's from FCC tests of vairous DTV receivers on the market a couple of years back), whearas good preamp/amp NF are in the range of 2~4db) .... Of course, amps/preamps aren't allways a good thing(at least without filtering out strong signals when needed), because strong signals can overload amp or front end of receiver and create/spread noise/intermod and signficantly degrade weaker signals you are also trying to receive ....

plughplover

09-19-07, 01:25 AM

The antenna heights were for LOS - I quoted them to illustrate the 'hill factor'; ie 50-110 ft to get LOS to the south, but direct LOS to dayton stations 30 miles away.

Being in a condo, I'm precluded from mounting an antenna on the building, and there is no way to do it from the patio (which is also on the north side of the building, hence would have to be taller than it - same problem with dishes, no view of 'the arc'). And, as I'm sure you're aware, a mast mounted amp with a good NF is primarily to overcome line losses and preserve SNR, not boost signal strength.

My issue with Cincy isn't signal strength per se, but really horrendous multi-path. All the Cincy signals are diffracted over/around the hill and I also get strong bounces off the hills to the north. Analog TV is hopeless; the FEC with DTV helps a lot, but I still get break-up.

Anyway, I'm impressed with tvfool's predictions; they seemed to have excellant topographical info for my location to work from, and give predictions that match my experiences. Definitely better than antennaweb...

jimp2244

09-19-07, 08:40 AM

Being in a condo, I'm precluded from mounting an antenna on the building, and there is no way to do it from the patio (which is also on the north side of the building, hence would have to be taller than it - same problem with dishes, no view of 'the arc')Not sure if your interested in this, but I am in a condo as well (well townhouse really). Since the roof is "common area" I could not use the OTARD (http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html)rule to put an antenna there. However, I pointed out to my HOA that by the OTARD rule, I WOULD be able to rig up a mast and antenna on my patio, and the antenna could be up to 12' above the roofline. I pointed out that this would be much more aesthetically unpleasing than a simple roof mount, and once they believed, that, yes I would follow through with the patio mount, they granted me an exception and allowed me to mount on the roof. If you want more details, PM me.

BobbytheBeast

09-19-07, 11:02 AM

Thanks, Jeff. Your info helped. That explains the sound problem with WKRC-DT. And I stand corrected about the DD2.0 vs. DD2.1. I guess I was thinking systems and not signals. Wonder why WKRC-DT doesn't broadcast DD5.1. And I wonder why stations aren't consistent with the digital sound they broadcast. I guess there aren't enough customers watching through home theaters yet. And I just switched a couple of cables around and think I've resolved the "optical connection takes priority" problem. I just have to switch to a different function now when there really is something coming in at DD5.1. Thanks again.

DaveA28

09-19-07, 11:35 AM

According to Zap2it, the Reds vs Cubs are in HD tonite on ESPN. So all us TW customers will get to see the Reds in HD. Whoopee

jim tressler

09-19-07, 11:37 AM

unless its blacked out and you must watch it on fsn in sd :)

mlbUC

09-19-07, 11:38 AM

If FSN Ohio is showing the game it should be blacked out on ESPN. Congrats :)

planet_bill

09-19-07, 11:39 AM

don't ya just love MLB...

plughplover

09-19-07, 12:29 PM

Not sure if your interested in this, but I am in a condo as well (well townhouse really). Since the roof is "common area" I could not use the OTARD (http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html)rule to put an antenna there. However, I pointed out to my HOA that by the OTARD rule, I WOULD be able to rig up a mast and antenna on my patio, and the antenna could be up to 12' above the roofline. I pointed out that this would be much more aesthetically unpleasing than a simple roof mount, and once they believed, that, yes I would follow through with the patio mount, they granted me an exception and allowed me to mount on the roof. If you want more details, PM me.

I've considered that strategy / argument in the past, and may yet one day employ it, if/when I feel driven to do so. However, from ground to above second story roof would be a pretty good sized tower that *I* wouldn't feel comfortable about unless it had building supports or guy wires, neither of which is really an option (ie it would be an easy bluff to call). It's just not a battle I've felt strongly enough about to embark upon.

And the kicker is, I'm not confident it would address the multi-path issues; it would have to be a highly directional (ie large) antenna to select one of the diffraction signals over all the others.

FYI, the association consists of only 12 units (3 bldgs), and I've been re-elected to the board for quite a few years. We are all pretty much truly neighbors, not just people living near each other... Now if someone *else* asked, I'd support their request - out of 'enlightened self-interest' ;)

jimp2244

09-19-07, 12:48 PM

I've considered that strategy / argument in the past, and may yet one day employ it, if/when I feel driven to do so. However, from ground to above second story roof would be a pretty good sized tower that *I* wouldn't feel comfortable about unless it had building supports or guy wires, neither of which is really an option (ie it would be an easy bluff to call). It's just not a battle I've felt strongly enough about to embark upon.
Haha yes, I was not about to actually go through with the tower, just made sure they believed I would. I probably would have put "something" outside in the patio area though.

FYI, the association consists of only 12 units (3 bldgs), and I've been re-elected to the board for quite a few years. We are all pretty much truly neighbors, not just people living near each other... Now if someone *else* asked, I'd support their request - out of 'elightened self-interest' ;)
I understand. I don't know if you ever have general discussions about peoples "feelings" towards these types of thing, but I often wonder how most people feel about this when given the proper information.

UPDATE: Just noticed you added this to your post:
And the kicker is, I'm not confident it would address the multi-path issues; it would have to be a highly directional (ie large) antenna to select one of the diffraction signals over all the others.Antenna does not need to be large to be directional. The size "generally" is more related to the gain of the antenna. When I was using indoor silver sensor antenna, I was able to get all of Cincinnati + Dayton except WBDT-DT with the antenna aiming out a second story window towards Dayton. However there were some reliability issues, and I'd have dropouts from time to time. With the outdoor rooftop antenna I have rock-solid reliability (no dropouts) and I get WBDT-DT as well.

Nitewatchman

09-19-07, 01:23 PM

The antenna heights were for LOS - I quoted them to illustrate the 'hill factor'; ie 50-110 ft to get LOS to the south, but direct LOS to dayton stations 30 miles away.

Thanks for the clarification. I realize you specifically said you were talking about "LOS" in your post .... But, the way you had worded it, It seemed to me you were placing significant "importance" on LOS in your post regarding the possibility of achieving good reception from Cincinnati stations, just wanted to point out that it LOS *isn't* necessarily of significant importance regarding the *possibility* of reception - as many folks seem to be under the impression that it is.

BTW, it says I need antenna at 157.4FT for LOS for WCVN-DT here(partly due to terrain obstructions, partly due to curvature of Earth), and between 58 and 65FT for the other Cincinnati digital stations. I can't get WCVN-DT(predicted at -100.2dbm and 2edge diffraction) from indoors, but can get the rest(predicted to be between -73 and -80dbm), but ONLY with a UHF folded dipole(and some sort of amp) ONLY in a second story window facing the towers.

Even though all the Cincinnati stations are received via 1 or 2 edge diffraction, there are no noticable multipath issues with use of directional antenna, and it's not really a problem with antennas such as "rabbit ears" either .. No ghosting apparent with properly aimed directional antenna on the analog signals for instance.

Dayton, OTOH, even though I am only 13 miles away from the transmit sites and it *is* line of sight according to the tool, There are "hills"/irregular terrain, possibly ground reflections and other issues involved(regarding lots of trees/etc) I believe, and it takes careful antenna placement(even outdoors) and aiming to eliminate "ghosting" on analog signals - It's an issue to some extent regarding "dynamic" multipath conditions and/or signal fading issues(wind blowing tree limbs around/etc) with digital as well. In short though, antenna 35FT above ground "cures" the issue completely ... 28FT above ground ... Not so much ....

And, as I'm sure you're aware, a mast mounted amp with a good NF is primarily to overcome line losses and preserve SNR, not boost signal strength.

For most intents and purposes, yes.

The thing of "importance" I think(hope anyway) you may be getting at is that amp can't "increase" the amount of signal being "captured" by the receive antenna, or for that matter increase the signal gain of the receive antenna.

My issue with Cincy isn't signal strength per se, but really horrendous multi-path.

I suspected that may be the case ....

All the Cincy signals are diffracted over/around the hill and I also get strong bounces off the hills to the north. Analog TV is hopeless; the FEC with DTV helps a lot, but I still get break-up.

Do keep in mind Receiving signals "over hills" via 1 or 2 edge diffraction vs. LOS doesn't *usually* "cause" multipath. For example -- terrain/hills don't usually "create" multipath in and of themselves ... Having "portions" of signals arrive "over hills" and "portions" of signals arriving from antenna "around hills"/etc, is another matter(and is multipath if those "portions" arrive at slightly different times at your antenna), which can likely be exacberated I'd think by the signals being stronger/being closer to the transmit sites ....

As you've already surmised, getting directional receive antenna outdoors could help greatly with your multipath problem, but there are no guarentees .... I suspect it's possibly you may not be able to get rid of all the "ghosts" on the analog signals for instance by moving antenna outdoors, digital *may* fare better ...

If it were me, I might experiement a bit with your current antenna, "temporarily" outdoors in different spots(not necessarily 30feet high, but trying it "on a 10~15ft "pole" might not be a bad idea) .... You might be surprised .... Especially perhaps If you can get antenna away from nearby obstructions (especially if you can get it about 10 wavelengths away for lowest frequency in direction antenna is aimed - say about 20~30 feet or so ....)

Anyway, I'm impressed with tvfool's predictions; they seemed to have excellant topographical info for my location to work from, and give predictions that match my experiences. Definitely better than antennaweb...

yep, same here. FYI Andy has told us the terrian(topo) data comes from Shuttle Mission's SRTM datasets.

Oh, BTW, it's a little "hidden", and TVfool has been discussed in the "3d google earth thread(stickied in hardware area) but the "offical TV fool forum" thread is here - I think you'll find a good amount of of useful info on the tool in it, especially from Andy (it hasn't been very active for a while for "some reason" and isn't "stickied" like the 3d google earth maps are) :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=841787

Nitewatchman

09-19-07, 01:31 PM

UPDATE: Just noticed you added this to your post:Antenna does not need to be large to be directional. The size "generally" is more related to the gain of the antenna.

Hmm ... Well, generally speaking the larger a directional antenna is, the more directivity AND gain it has .... You don't really get "one" without the other ... For instance The More elements a yagi has, the larger it is, the more gain AND directivity it has ...

With UHF, you can still have relatively small antennas with some degree of directivity(even "good" directivity) because of the relatively short wavelentghs involved ... But, a Silver sensor doesn't have the gain OR directivity of say, a ~9 foot long UHF XG91 ....

That being said, as I said in my reply to him above, I suspect Plughplover may be surprised at the improvments he *may* be able to acheive(even with his current antenna "temporarily") by putting antenna outdoors in a "good spot" ...

Nitewatchman

09-19-07, 01:46 PM

FYI, the association consists of only 12 units (3 bldgs), and I've been re-elected to the board for quite a few years. We are all pretty much truly neighbors, not just people living near each other... Now if someone *else* asked, I'd support their request - out of 'enlightened self-interest' ;)

Sounds like it might be a great oppurtunity for you to illuminate to your neighbors the beneifits and possibilities of a MATV (OTA antenna system with feeds from it distributed to all units) system as an alternative option or "addition" to cable/DBS for them .... i.e. a common tower and receive antenna setup for everyone to use to receive the fine programming available for Free over our public airwaves :)

with 4 units per building, though, one common antenna setup on the roof "per building" might work out to be less expensive/less difficult to implement, and may require not much more "different" than what one would do for a residental install since each antenna setup would only be feeding 4 units, all you might "need"(more or less) may be antenna+distrubution amp ....

Nitewatchman

09-19-07, 10:11 PM

Wonder why WKRC-DT doesn't broadcast DD5.1.

Didn't mean to ignore your post, figured someone else might answer that ...

The reason is because they don't have the equipment/setup for it yet, and related to (I think) for them it would be expensive upgrade .. Have to remember, WLWT, WCPO, WKRC +WXIX were among the very first DTV stations on the air in U.S., so they also "got" to pay the most for the "early very expensive equipment ....

Nitewatchman

09-21-07, 04:03 AM

Seems a little slow so thought this would be fun to post this. As I think it's fun to see what stations in other markets are doing, and fun to demonstrate a bit of what one can do with a little enhanced signal propagation and a decent outdoor hi-gain receive antenna(with rotor) setup with a good amount of directivity. Even from my generally poor, generally "terrain obstructed" location for VHF/UHF reception in a small, very forested steep valley ... I would imagine folks in the area on "flat" or "higher ground" and/or without trees would have seen more distant stations, late tonight, or early this morning ...

So, Up a little late tonight, and noticed a bit(not much) of enhanced signal propagation occuring (tropo scatter) ...

Description of files in Attached zip archive, along with some notes Follows. Wanted to include the video decode thumbnails as well, but figured the filesize would end up to big to attach here ... These are TSreader HTML output files(file names of the htm files based on station callsigns) from around 1am~2:30am from my reception tonight of :

WAVE-DT 47 Louisville (NBC) - 113 Miles - NBC HD+2SD == WeatherPlus AND The Tube ...

WBNS-DT 21 Columbus (CBS) - 78 Miles(70 deg azimuth) - Note the 18.21mb/s for the video stream - Yes, "Full bandwidth" CBS HD (they do local HD news as well, btw) ... Right next door to WKEF 22 analog(12 miles blow torch signal), at 42 deg azimuth, and co-channel with WUPX-DT 21 Morehead, KY ...

WCMH-DT 14 Columbus (NBC) - 78 Miles(70 deg az.) - NBC HD+Weather Plus (note, yes this is co-channel with WPTO 14 analog which is 18 miles from me and directly off the backside of antenna -- DTV really *does* handle NTSC co-channel interference quite well!

WDRB-DT 49 Louisville (Fox) - 113 Miles (220 az)

WHAS-DT 55 Louisville (ABC) - 113 Miles(220 az) - ABC HD - Video at 18Mb/s + !!!!

WKPC-DT 17 Louisville (KET) - 113 Miles - Note - Sorry, I didn't quite get a "clean" capture on this one, hence all the "weird" PID's that aren't really there, the weird Mux shown of ~17Mb/s, and all the ... Enough for the TSID's/etc however, and to decode perfect video for a while on ZenithHDV420 receiver ... In fact, at times the Zenith was decoding it "perfectly" but the HVR1600 couldn't even acheive a signal lock .. The difference was that it probably took about 2db or so more signal from WKPC-DT to decode(barely+with errors) on the HVR1600 ...

WSYX-DT 13 Columbus, OH (ABC) - 78 Miles (70 Az) - ABC HD+MyTV SD.

WTTE-DT 36 Columbus (FOX) - 78 Miles(az. 70) - Co channel with TBN LP translator W36DG Cincinnati and WTVQ 36 Lexington which is "tearing up" W36DG tonight ( a fairly common occurance given they are in same direction)

WTVQ-DT 40 Lexington, KY (ABC) - 107 Miles(az 180) - Co channel with WRCX-LP 40 Dayton(12 Miles, az 43) -- Their running ABC HD + SD weather radar service ...

WUPX-DT 21 Morehead, KY (ION) - 123 Miles(az 160) - .... I allways think this one is cool when I'm getting co-channel WBNS-DT 21 as well ... Turn antenna a bit, and get a completely different station on channel 21!

WWHO-DT 46 - Columbus/Chillocothe, OH - (90 Az) - 69 Miles - "full bandwidth" CW HD ...

Note: Also Managed perfect reception/decoding of WKYT-DT 13 Lexington, WDRB-DT 49 Lou, and WKON-DT 44(KET) Owenton, KY as well on ZenithHDV420 STB for a while, but either couldn't quite get a lock on Hauppage HVR1600(in PC) or a clean "enough" decode for a anywhere near usuable TSreader file. Also came close to acheiving locks on WKLE-DT 42 Lexington(KET), WOSU-DT 38 (PBS) Columbus(CCI from WBQC off the side wasn't helping it any), but it "didn't quite happen" ....

jimp2244

09-21-07, 08:29 AM

So, Up a little late tonight, and noticed a bit(not much) of enhanced signal propagation occuring (tropo scatter) ... Cool stuff. Did you attempt anything from Indianapolis or did you not have time? Also, I'm really interested to see what the PQ looks like on the Lexington station (WKYT-DT I think) that has the two 720p channels (CBS and CW). Maybe someday I'll get lucky and get a decode on WKYT-DT 13.

Nitewatchman

09-21-07, 02:13 PM

Did you attempt anything from Indianapolis or did you not have time?

I did see all 3 Indy analog VHF's last night, but 8+13 were weak. I do see WRTV 6 about 90% of the time with a somewhat "watchable" signal. Don't have much of a shot of WISH-DT 9 with WCPO analog 9 on air. Have managed to log most of the Indy/FT wayne and other Central Indiana analog UHF stations, but just "barely". Only DT in that area I've logged so far has been WNDY-DT 23(was UPN at the time I logged it), Marion, IN. I've gotten "close" to a lock on WRTV-DT 25 Indy before, but co channel interference from WOTH-LP 25 Cincy didn't "help" ....

Attached below should demonstrate why I do not get very good results with "tropo" to West or NW, as it's one of my most "terrain obstructed" directions. Indy reception is "direct evidence" here that Longer wavelengths involved for lower frequencies allow signals being propagated in lower levels of atmosphere to "bend" better around hills than is the case with higher frequencies.

In attached file, I'm at 0 mile marker at left in both ... Graphic at top shows the first ~22 miles of terrain profile on a 180 degree heading from my receive antenna. Graphic at bottom shows the first ~22 miles of terrain profile on a 282 degree(right towards Indy transmitters) heading from my receive antenna ... Note that the "ground" below antenna is at 803FT ASL, but in this profile, the first 50 feet or so is so "steep' you can't tell it and would think the ground is at about 840~850FT ....

I have logged a Handful of more distant analog stations via tropo from N or NW -- from Chicago for instance, the only station I've logged has been WTTW 11(PBS), most distant one via tropo was WQAD 8, Moline, IL (335 Miles), and have also seen KPLR 11, St. Louis. But *nothing* farther than Indy or FT wayne on UHF ...

Forgot to check the Indy/Central In UHF analogs last night/this morning, oddly enough concerning the "terrain issues", WXIN 59 Indy is one I see with a stable signal most often - WANE 15 Ft Wayne is like that as well, I see it much more often than WIPB Muncie, even though the latter is closer and nearly in same direction.

Anyway, difficult to say, but have a feeling last night there were probably signals coming in via "tropo scatter" from all directions, but I only was able to see "best results" in the directions at my location which are the least "terrain obstructed". Have a feeling that sort of thing happens quite often. Farthest stations(analog) I noticed a steady signal last night were WBXX 20, Crossville/Knoxville, TN(240 Miles), WJW 8 cleveland(forgot to check WQHS 61, it's often in there as well, WTOL11/WTVG 13 Toledo.

Also, I'm really interested to see what the PQ looks like on the Lexington station (WKYT-DT I think) that has the two 720p channels (CBS and CW). Maybe someday I'll get lucky and get a decode on WKYT-DT 13.

Yep -- I have seen them since they started doing that, but not yet when HD was running. I'd be particularly interested in seeing what it "looks like" during a 4pm NFL HD game with HD running on CW on a Sunday evening in the "old" "WB easyview" time slots as well ...

BTW, acheived reception of WDKY-DT 4 Lexington last night just after I had made the zip arhcive with the others ... It was a bit unusual that I did not see them earlier, as I usually can acheive a lock on it on a daily basis at least for a few minutes every now and then even under almost "dead band conditions" .. difficult to say, but probably didn't see them more last night probably because of "increased" co-channel interference from staitons such as WCMH 4/WTTV 4 coming in off "side" of antenna. WSYX-DT 13 columbus "booming in" last night probably didn't help WKYT-DT 13, either.

I am using Winegard PR5030 for VHF now as sort of a "all around VHF/FM antenna" but it's a "compromise antenna" of sorts concerning a "one size fits all" broadband VHF antenna and for DX'ing, especially right now concerning the latter "directivity" wise ....

tbenson81

09-22-07, 04:01 PM

This is great.....I just love watching the Buckeyes on ESPN and WCPO!

Guide says Penn St vs Michigan on ABC but what do you know.....we have to watch the Buckeyes again even though they are on ESPN

This citys local affiliates are absolutely terrible.

I am buying my antenna this weekend and watching Dayton stations from now on

Tony

tbenson81

09-22-07, 04:10 PM

We sure know how to pick the games here in cincy dont we

FYI to any of the local stations - this isnt Columbus, this isnt Indianapolis and this isnt Lexington. The Buckeyes, Wildcats and Hoosiers are not local teams so stop pre-empting your coverage with this jaded midset.

Nobody wants to watch the Buckeyes vs Northwestern when the game is on ESPN.

Tony

PS - Nightwatchman - save your comments.

Splicer010

09-22-07, 04:48 PM

Nobody wants to watch the Buckeyes vs Northwestern when the game is on ESPN.

I do. Do you have a clue how many OSU alumni there are in Cincinnati? This isn't Michigan and isn't Penn State country either. This is OHIO...:rolleyes:

Stop bitching here and start emailing the stations you have issues with because frankly, I am sick and tired of you trying to convince the world that you speak for me when in fact you do not.

jim tressler

09-22-07, 05:52 PM

on directv - espn sd (ch 206) is blacked out but espn hd (ch 73) is live... very strange. Michigan v. Penn State is on directv ch 208 or 209 or whatever one of the espn alternates are...

tbenson81

09-22-07, 05:54 PM

LOL - I am glad you are enjoying your 70-7 game against Northwestern.

Wow - what a matchup!

PS Splicer -there are OSU alumni all over the country because its the biggest university in the country. That doesnt mean anything. A true fan, even a hardcore Buckeye fan doesnt want to watch this crap when there is another great game that they are missing......you on the other hand........

tbenson81

09-22-07, 05:56 PM

Looks like TW at least started airing Penn St - Michigan on the standard ESPN but we are stuck with this Northwestern massacre on both WCPO-HD and ESPN-HD

PS - Splicer - if you were a true Buckeye fan, you probably should be a little more interested in a close Big 10 matchup of Penn St vs Michigan - 2 of the only good teams you play all year rather than watch the wildcats.

To each his own.

Tony

Splicer010

09-22-07, 06:47 PM

...and yet you still try to speak for me, telling me what I should want when in fact it is what YOU want...:rolleyes: Personally I like seeing a team other than my own get trounced. GO BUCKEYES!!! (and mich-penn game is on)

AFWIW, TW has nothing to do with what ESPN SD is showing. That is all up to ESPN...;)

tbenson81

09-22-07, 07:12 PM

I never said TW had anything to do with that. I was simply pointing out to those who enjoy "quality" football, that the game that should have been on WCPO is on elsewhere.

Im glad you are excited about your big win over the Northwestern Wildcats!

tbenson81

09-22-07, 07:16 PM

This is my final comment on the subject because there is really no argument that anyone on here can have to refute it.

Why is it that the Dayton local affiliates can get it right and the Cincinnati ones cannot?

This point becomes even further validated by the fact that Dayton is even closer to Columbus than Cincinnati.

Maybe they acutally have real sports fans up in the Dayton stations who know what the good games are and what to televise.

Splicer010

09-22-07, 08:11 PM

I never said TW had anything to do with that.

Looks like TW at least started airing Penn St - Michigan on the standard ESPN
Enough said.

You mean that YOU will accept...:rolleyes:
This is my final comment on the subject because there is really no argument that anyone on here can have to refute it.

Dayton is not nearly as large a market as Cincinnati and plays to far fewer viewers.
This point becomes even further validated by the fact that Dayton is even closer to Columbus than Cincinnati.

Bubster

09-22-07, 08:21 PM

Anyone else out there having issues with TWC 972 (Universal HD)? Sound is screwed and pauses every few seconds in the video. All other HD and SD stations are fine.

Nitewatchman

09-22-07, 08:39 PM

on directv - espn sd (ch 206) is blacked out but espn hd (ch 73) is live... very strange. Michigan v. Penn State is on directv ch 208 or 209 or whatever one of the espn alternates are...

Dunno about ESPN on E* HD, but other wise much the same here with Dish ... ESPN SD (ch 140) was blacked out here as well, with the Michigan game available on a alternate (ch 145).

WKEF-DT(ABC) Dayton didn't have HD for the OSU game whenever I checked is was SD, of course WCPO-DT had it HD throughout ...

[update:] hmmm ... Did seem unusual for WKEF to "miss" the HD ... I wonder how the distribution to the ohio ABC HD afifliates worked today from ABC HD/ESPN HD for the two games ? (the OSU and Michigan games ...) [end update]

----------------------------------------------------

Didn't notice any "different" games on the Dayton stations vs. the Cincinnati stations today, but didn't pay all that much attention either, and forgot to check to see if WBQC or WOTH had any football today .... Both NBC affiliates had Notre dame(HD), both CBS affiliates had SEC game(HD), WSTR+WBDT both had the Florida game from whoever it was that was doing it (Not sure if it was Jefferson pilot or what) ...

psm0110

09-22-07, 09:37 PM

According to the pre-game hosts, all Ohio affiliates (and Chicago) were carrying the Ohio State game. This is hardly a local affiliate issue. And frankly, yes many of us OTA-only viewers would far rather watch a Buckeye blow-out than the Penn State v Michigan game.

plughplover

09-22-07, 11:14 PM

Anyone else out there having issues with TWC 972 (Universal HD)? Sound is screwed and pauses every few seconds in the video. All other HD and SD stations are fine.

Yes. I noticed the prob late fri. night. And someone else I know is having the same problem. I called TW and reported it; they wanted to reboot the box and/or schedule a truck run. I told them it isn't me alone and gave them phone numbers of myself and the other person. They said they's pass it on to 'engr's.

Call them, log the report; seems the only thing that convinces them they have a problem is lots of calls...

tbenson81

09-22-07, 11:48 PM

I noticed this as well. I was looking for something other to watch than the Buckeye blowout and came across a movie on UHD. The audio and video dropouts were severe and the channel is completely unwatchable.

I called customer service and they also told me there were "no known" issues and they can schedule a technician. I am not sure why they can never acknowledge the problem

Whatever - I emailed them also so hopefully this gets handled

Tony

parishd

09-23-07, 09:17 AM

mlbUC

09-23-07, 09:22 AM

tbenson, as Nitewatchman said, the Dayton locals played the same as the Cincy locals (except WKEF couldn't get the OSU game in HD), so putting an antenna up to point to Dayton is just a waste in your case. ABC/ESPN decided to switch the games in Ohio and Chicago, so if you want to bitch please talk to them, not the local affiliates that were probably forced to carry OSU.

tbenson81

09-23-07, 10:10 AM

It was my understanding that the Dayton affiliate switched to the Michigan game around halftime.....is this not the case?

fafner

09-23-07, 10:11 AM

Splicer010

09-23-07, 10:53 AM

I'm not new to AVS but just found this thread. I've spent about 1 1/2 years deciding on my new entertainment system and now need to decide between cable and D*. I'm sure buried in this thread's 8000 posts my answer is resides (I tried a search with not much success) but I would appreciate someone directing me to a pertinent thread or simply give me this groups concensus and why.

I have both Warner basic cable now and an original D* sat for my base TV for NFL ticket only. I need to upgrade one service to HD.

I'm weighing HD quality, HD quantity, SD quality, and the HDTVR itself. Reading other forums my perception is the D* signal is not as good as cable right now they new satellite will deliver more channels and alleviate the compression issues if it ever happens, and I think the the features/use with the cable STB are better.

All of the above may or may not be true especially in the Cincinnati area; I asked 3 different Home Entertainment specialists in the area what they would choose and they said D* with no HDMI hookups which is exactly the opposite direction in which I was headed.

Anyway I'd just like a little direction from the locals or if I'm in the wrong area a little re-direction please

If you have a QAM tuner built in the set you want HD on, then connect your cable directly to that and do a channel scan. It depends on which TW system you are on (Cincinnati or the old Adelphia system) as to which channel line-up you will get but at the least you should get all the locals in HD (when they are broadcasting HD programming of course) or at the minimum the locals in Digital (which produces a better picture than analog SD) usually up-converted to 720P or 1080i.

If you do not have a QAM tuner, but do have an ATSC (8VSB) tuner for OTA then I suggest that you try an inexpensive indoor antenna and see what local stations you can receive. You may need an outdoor antenna if you get too many breakups but over the long term it will be cost effective as you will most likely pic-up MANY more HD stations than what would be possible with an indoor antenna.

The above 2 methods will give you the best quality-wise picture at the least expensive price, the best of both worlds. Now as for quantity (like Discovery HD, HBO HD and so on) that will both cost you more and in satellites case, will affect the quality of the picture thanks to their HD-Lite method of transmission which has been documented to use the minimal amount of band-width so as many HD channels can be crammed into the line-up.

Personally I am quite satisfied using the cable free HD channels and 97% of the time only watch those channels. I can always find _something_ on that I would like, usually on PBS (which WCET 48 has like 3 channels of different programming as an example) and I learn things. I like to learn things as there is always something new to learn. So it works for me, you may be different. My kids though still like their Cartoon Network and have that ability as well on other TV's or on the HD set (of course they are watching SD material) if I am not watching anything in particular.

Sorry for the length of this post but these are my findings summed up:

Quality as well as quantity for me are best obtained via cable and OTA, both of which are free.:D

mlbUC

09-23-07, 11:36 AM

It was my understanding that the Dayton affiliate switched to the Michigan game around halftime.....is this not the case?

Not that I saw. In fact, I'd imagine they could get into big trouble with ABC if they did that.

Splicer010

09-23-07, 11:53 AM

It was my understanding that the Dayton affiliate switched to the Michigan game around halftime.....is this not the case?

:rolleyes:You mean to tell me you are going on and on about how great the Dayton stations are and how idiotic the Cincinnati stations are and you have not verified your complaints first hand before posting?!:rolleyes:

Nitewatchman

09-23-07, 01:01 PM

FYI, while KET4 HD usually runs HD programming off a server which is a much "different" schedule than the PBS HD feed ... (Note as WPTO-DT does on 14.6/think14 HD as well, but with more SD widescreen programming included -- KET4 HD is almost allways "true" HD programming) ....

According to the KET4 HD schedule here (http://www.ket.org/dtv/programs.htm), they are going to Run Ken Burns film "The War" beginning tonight+over the next couple of weeks in the 8pm EDT slot from PBS HD feed, where it will also run on WCET-DT(CET HD), and WPTD-DT(16.6/thinkTV HD 16) Dayton ...

So, for those who haven't had(or "noticed") this oppurtunity before, it is an oppurtunity to "directly" compare the PQ among three Cincinnati/Dayton area PBS HD stations while the same programming is airing. One of them(WCVN-DT) which transcodes PBS HD from 1080i to 720p for broadcast .... I would caution to *be careful* drawing any conclusions from what you see, as, for instance there can be significant differences regarding how displays/STB's process+display 720p vs 1080i signals ...

terryfoster

09-23-07, 02:51 PM

I'm sorry you missed the days of advertisements that clearly stated the PSU/UM game was going to be carried on ABC nationally except for Ohio and Chicago where the game would be carried on ESPN. The NW/OSU game was also advertised to receive the exact opposite coverage. So, before you come on here and rant on about the local affiliates, you may want to do some research.

Now that being said, I'm surprised the PSU/UM game wasn't available in HD to those in Ohio, but that's probably some kind of transmission limitation. ESPN has probably only planned for one HD feed nationally and multiple SD feeds.

terryfoster

09-23-07, 03:02 PM

Anyway I'd just like a little direction from the locals or if I'm in the wrong area a little re-direction please

Everyone will likely tell you that the service that they have selected is the best option for you to choose. I would highly encourage that you try to see a demo of each service. There are some DirecTV stores that you can go and check out the service. I believe some Radioshack and Sears stores also have Dish Network demos. I'm not entirely sure, but I think Best Buy and Circuit City stores in this area also have TWC service demos. These demos will give you some idea of the PQ for each provider, but due to the vast differences in equipment used for the demos and what you may have at home, your results may vary. I also believe the specific equipment setups used in everyones home may contribute to which provider looks best to them.

I encourage people to choose their provider based upon the content. So, compose a list of the channels you want to watch and find the provider that can give you the majority of those channels for the price you are willing to pay per month.

Nitewatchman

09-23-07, 03:05 PM

edit: Sorry terry, didn't intend to "bump" your fine posts to the bottom of last page for those using forum defaults for posts per page ...

-----------------------------------

While watching NASCAR HD on ABC and the 49'ers @ steelers game ... Thought I'd also take the time to comment on a couple of other recent "topics" of discussion ...

Distances between Dayton, Cincinnati+ Columbus :

Dayton city center to Columbus City center - 64 Miles

Dayton City center to Cincinnati City center - 47 Miles

Dayton TV Transmitting antennas to Columbus transmitting antennas - approx 68 miles (note I don't have WOSU(farther) or WWHO location plotted currently, they are in different spots than the others)

Dayton TV transmitting antennas to Cincinnati TV transmitting antennas - approx 42~44 miles - Exceptions : WSTR 39 miles, WCVN 49 miles.

Since most of these stations have a coverage radius of about 55~65 miles -- including as related to cable carriage "rules" related to stations cable carriage rights and regarding signal "availability" at headends that serve specific communities ) ... obviously cincinnati stations signals cover pretty much entire Dayton metro area, and Dayton stations signals cover Cincinnati Metro area, including "into" N KY.

Also, Columbus is receivable from portions of Dayton DMA (including in dayton in some cases, East Dayton probably moreso).

Dayton is not nearly as large a market as Cincinnati .

Very true.

and plays to far fewer viewers

cliff's notes version :

It's probably fewer viewers of Dayton stations, I'd guess, but I'm not so sure "far fewer viewers" is true, other than for specifically "inside" each (cincinnati/Dayton) DMA. Neither the OTA signals(for OTA viewers) nor in some cases are the cable carriage of cincinnati/Dayton stations limited to reception only within the DMA.

more details :

First, as noted above, Cincinnati+Dayton stations signals/coverage areas reach signficant population in both DMA's - Mainly, The Cincinnati+Dayton Metro areas(and areas in between), where the most significant portion of the population resides for both DMA's. That means stations from both markets are *accessable* to most in both markets via OTA, but it also means stations(some of them at least) from both markets are *accessable* to many in both markets via cable, especially, but not completely limited to the population "in between" Dayton+Cincinnati.

Several Dayton stations are carried on Cable in communities between Dayton+Cincinnati(but within Cincinnati DMA), for instance. Unless somthing has changed, some Cincinnati Stations are also carried on Dayton cable systems FARTHER AWAY than Dayton itself(such as Fairborn). In some cases, Some of the stations involved are considered by FCC to be "signficantly viewed" out of market stations in certian communities.

In some cases for some stations that are carried -- Given that the net/affiliate agreements provide the affiliate with the "sole rights" for distribution of network programming within their market, the network programming from the "out of market" stations carried on cable may(and often is I believe) be blocked out. But for instance, when say, WKRC would have a UC game instead of Network programming, Dayton area viewers of WKRC on cable(where carried) should get the UC game from WKRC, and the CBS programming from WHIO. I think the same would be true for cable viewers of WHIO/WKRC in say, Middletown or Lebanon, within Cincinnati DMA.

Right now, the only "out of market" digital/HD station I'm aware of that is carried on cable is WCET-DT in some areas of Dayton area. I don't know about WPTD-DT in areas such as Hamilton/Fairfield or Middletown TWC.(I believe there is some sort of "distance" from the "in market" station rule as I recall regarding noncomms and duplicate programming/etc).

Unless something has changed recently, given several Cincinnati/Dayton analog stations are carried on cable in areas of the "other DMA", I assume(just an assumption) after analog shut off, we'll also see more Dayton digital/HD stations on Cincinnati area(mainly Just North of cincinnati) cable systems, and more Cincinnati digital/HD stations on Dayton area cable systems.

Where I am - Within Cincinnati DMA, but with the DMA boundry only about 1/4 mile to my North, and 12 miles from Dayton stations, 27~39 miles from Cincinnati/N KY stations ... Cable doesn't serve me or many of my neighbors, but TW Middletown comes fairly close, (entire Service area within cincinnati DMA) and carries both Cincinnati+Dayton stations - At least they did the last time I saw their service+what they had on "basic" cable, which was last fall at Middletown Hospital. Several neighbors here subscribe to E* or D* LiL, and get the Cincinnati locals via the Dish, but also have a OTA antenna on the roof for Dayton -- particuarly it seems those who work in Dayton and/or are interested in Dayton Local news, or for the "sometimes different" programming we get from Dayton stations.

It's complicated, and I would think at least in some cases there must be some sort of "arrangements" between the Cincinnati+Dayton stations regarding cable carriage(and perhaps even "out of market" advertising clients/advertisments - you *do* sometimes see those) matters in various communties, especially perhaps those communities somewhat "close" to the Cincy/Dayton DMA boundries ...

Thankfully, OTA signals don't/can't follow those sorts of "rules" or "agreements" such as net/affilate agreements which give the affiliate the sole distribution rights of the network programming within a market(well, except for the network themselves, they seem to be "distributing" their shows to everyone via internet in many cases these days) therefore, most of those interested in cincinnati/Dayton can receive stations in both markets OTA(without any "blackouts" from either), including, at times "different"/more programming, which is a good thing ....

AT one time, BTW, there were some floating the idea around to "combine" Cincinnati+Dayton markets, and put the transmitters "in between" the two markets (such as near the old VOA Bethany/Current WLW transmit site) ... But, they didn't think of that until well AFTER Cincinnati + Dayton markets+ the stations involved had already 'established themselves" .....

fafner

09-23-07, 03:25 PM

Everyone will likely tell you that the service that they have selected is the best option for you to choose. I would highly encourage that you try to see a demo of each service. There are some DirecTV stores that you can go and check out the service. I believe some Radioshack and Sears stores also have Dish Network demos. I'm not entirely sure, but I think Best Buy and Circuit City stores in this area also have TWC service demos. These demos will give you some idea of the PQ for each provider, but due to the vast differences in equipment used for the demos and what you may have at home, your results may vary. I also believe the specific equipment setups used in everyones home may contribute to which provider looks best to them.

I encourage people to choose their provider based upon the content. So, compose a list of the channels you want to watch and find the provider that can give you the majority of those channels for the price you are willing to pay per month.

I think you are being overly skeptical when you say people will say what they chose is the best, especially for people like me who have see the two side by side on two different occasions.

While I do agree that equipment differences between different users can cause better/worse reception, I can consistantly see that D* PQ is better than TWC in my house...regardless of what particular equipment at any one point in time.

I think this is important feeback to someone who is searching for the best possible PQ.

fafner

parishd

09-23-07, 03:53 PM

Thanks to all who have chose to reply to my request for information. It looks like this decision is going to be as difficult as it was choosing my TV and speakers. I thought perhaps by now all the issues I was hearing for both TWC and D* were gone but I guess not.

Fafner, apparently you are not experiencing the picture degredation associated with the compressed signal from D*. I thought the real trade-off was TWC has the better picture but fewer choices. I can't find any reviews that are firmly behind the HDTVR from either, TWC, D*, or TIVO.

It amazes me....choosing a TV used to me so much easier. Pick the size, pay your money, and watch TV. Now it doesn't matter how much I can spend you still can't find a decent solution.

dp

Splicer010

09-23-07, 04:22 PM

I thought the real trade-off was TWC has the better picture but fewer choices.

It is.

mikemikeb

09-23-07, 04:53 PM

Rumors are that D* will provide much better resolutions and picture quality over MPEG-4 than what they provided over MPEG-2. So it may be the best all-around choice. Give things a few weeks to settle down.

R_Willis

09-23-07, 05:32 PM

Bengals game on 12-1 via OTA with TONS of bad macroblocking.

Splicer010

09-23-07, 05:39 PM

Bengals game on 12-1 via OTA with TONS of bad macroblocking.

WHIO (7-1) out of Dayton is MUCH better from what I can see though there is still minor macroblocking...Not worth mentioning though in comparison to WKRC.

Nitewatchman

09-23-07, 05:46 PM

Thanks to all who have chose to reply to my request for information.

#1). Do keep in mind most of us are probably watching HD Football and/or NASCAR HD this afternoon, and with the Fall TV season beginning, most of us will probably be watching more HD and posting less .... And, In general it may be at least several days before everyone who reads/monitors this thread has a chance to reply ... So, you might want to give it more than just a day if you'd like to hear more responses ...

#2). Some of us use other options to receive HD programming than the options you said you were considering, hence why some of us haven't commented .... For instance, I use OTA exclusively for HD(and have since 2001), and OTA is, and has allways been(I'm 40 BTW) the primary way I receive TV programming ... By choice ...

Most of the programming I'm interested in, Including HD programming is available with NO monthly subscription bills involved from 15 digital, and (currently) 23 analog stations in the area I receive OTA -- Even the Cincinnati LP analogs with excellent reception. Which provides me with "on average" about 30 different programming choices -- Sometimes a bit fewer choices than that during prime time since you have Cincinnati/Dayton stations with the same network affiliation, sometimes more outside of prime time. So far, I've seen at least as many as 10 "different" HD programs airing at the same time from the 14 Cincinnati digital stations which transmit HD .... And, 9 different HD programs at same time isn't unusual -- For instance, CBS HD, NBC HD, ABC HD, Fox HD, CW HD, MyTV HD, PBS HD feed from WCET-DT and WPTD-DT, a PBS HD program "time shifted"+ran off a server from WPTO-DT(thinkTV 14HD), a PBS HD station time shifted and ran off a server from WCVN-DT(KET) ..

So, Subscription to any "pay TV"/services from multichannel provider is a secondary thing for me, and hopefully allways will be and really ranks in importance for me+my family behind formats such as DVD ... I think that would be the case if cable service were available at my rural location as well(It isn't).

So , Obviously, I'm also probably not as willing to pay as much for it as others may be, since most of the programming(including HD) is going to come from OTA in any case.

As for currently, FWIW, why I do choose subscribe to E*'s AT100 package(on an annual basis) to supplement OTA programming a bit vs. D* (the only other choice I have for HD right now other than OTA), It mostly has to do with something Terry said ... Content I want and the price involved ....

Same issues are involved regarding why I don't currently subscribe to HD programming from D* or E*, nor, really will it likely be an issue of any sort of real "importance" to me in the future ....

I suppose the reason why I'm mentioning this is because, I believe this way of "looking at it" is an option for most everyone, and I won't go into details, but would encourage folks there are often Usually good reasons to use OTA even *when* you also choose to subscribe to services from a Pay TV provider.

I also believe "OTA only" is a viable option for most everyone as well, I think as long as you can receive it, it's a viable option - Do not mean to say it's a "viable option" to receive all the programming services you're interested in, just that it's a "viable option" for most folks to receive PLENTLY of quality programming, including HD programming ...

Unfortunetly, however, it seems few folks seem to realize this, and neither retailers or broadcasters seem to have much interest(especially from a $ perspective) in promoting or getting the word out regarding OTA DTV/HDTV which when possibile is why I do my best to "illuminate" it as an option for folks ....

I know that wasn't what you were asking about, but there's .02 cents worth anyway ....

JunkyardDogg

09-23-07, 06:52 PM

FYI, while KET4 HD usually runs HD programming off a server which is a much "different" schedule than the PBS HD feed ... (Note as WPTO-DT does on 14.6/think14 HD as well, but with more SD widescreen programming included -- KET4 HD is almost always "true" HD programming) ....

According to the KET4 HD schedule here (http://www.ket.org/dtv/programs.htm), they are going to Run Ken Burns film "The War" beginning tonight+over the next couple of weeks in the 8pm EDT slot from PBS HD feed, where it will also run on WCET-DT(CET HD), and WPTD-DT(16.6/thinkTV HD 16) Dayton ...

So, for those who haven't had(or "noticed") this oppurtunity before, it is an oppurtunity to "directly" compare the PQ among three Cincinnati/Dayton area PBS HD stations while the same programming is airing. One of them(WCVN-DT) which transcodes PBS HD from 1080i to 720p for broadcast .... I would caution to *be careful* drawing any conclusions from what you see, as, for instance there can be significant differences regarding how displays/STB's process+display 720p vs 1080i signals ...

For those who are planning on watching, WCET is showing the un-editted version of the series. Because we're a nation that can't have bad language on our airwaves, PBS has an editted version of the series. I am not sure what KET and WPTD have planned as far as the versions they are playing. Hopefully the FCC (Oh protect me from Fubar) doesn't fine all the PBS station.

Nitewatchman

09-23-07, 06:53 PM

WHIO (7-1) out of Dayton is MUCH better from what I can see though there is still minor macroblocking...

Yep, noticed same thing here. But, What looks like MPEG2 blocking issues still looks pretty bad to me on WHIO-DT as well vs. what I've seen from CBS HD NFL football from WKRC-DT/WHIO-DT when they weren't multicasting or datacasting(and WBNS-DT whenvever I've seen it) ..

Trying to watch the game, but quickly scanned the CBS NFL HD thead in programming area real quick and didn't see any comments posted on this game yet ...

Difficult to say, but the apparent blocking issues may seem to perhaps be a tad worse during bandwidth demanding/difficult to encode at high MPEG2 compression ratios portions(especially from WKRC-DT, can't really detirmine with any certianity if it's a little worse than Usual from WHIO-DT or not ) than usual from them lately for HD football ... So don't know if this is completely a WKRC issue this time around or not ...

I've peaked at TSreader a couple of times ... Both stations running HD at bitrates between about 14 and 16Mb/s ....

Nitewatchman

09-23-07, 07:07 PM

For those who are planning on watching, WCET is showing the un-editted version of the series.

Good to hear ...

Hopefully the FCC (Oh protect me from Fubar) doesn't fine all the PBS station.

Although I believe it's certianly the case that it may be difficult in some cases for stations to "know"/interpet what the commission may or may not do in these sorts of circumstances ....

Who knows, but I would not think they would, if so it would seem to me to go against precedence ... For instance, even though some stations decided NOT to air it anyway, I think FCC pretty much "hinted strongly" before the last broadcast network airing of "Saving Private Ryan" they wouldn't fine stations for airing unedited version of it due to the "context" involved, and can't imagine it would be much different for "The war" ...

BTW, ABC had aired "Saving Private Ryan" on a previous occasion before that "flak" happened (Including In HD and with limited commercial interupptions) uncut with AFAIK no "problems" other than I believe a few "groups" with nothing better to do than complain to the commission about it ...

terryfoster

09-23-07, 09:16 PM

I think you are being overly skeptical when you say people will say what they chose is the best, especially for people like me who have see the two side by side on two different occasions.

While I do agree that equipment differences between different users can cause better/worse reception, I can consistantly see that D* PQ is better than TWC in my house...regardless of what particular equipment at any one point in time.

I think this is important feeback to someone who is searching for the best possible PQ.

fafner

Again, you decided that one was better than the other with your eyes and perception. This is why these discussions aren't productive. By the numbers TWC has the better picture than D* for some channels (as has already been mentioned), but some may not notice the PQ difference themselves or believe that D*'s picture is better. Decisions about picture quality should not be made from message board input since you don't know if you're hearing from a fanboy, overly critical user, or hater.

jdhughes63

09-23-07, 09:20 PM

Cold Case should be in HD. I have checked TW 912 (WKRC) and no HD. I switched to Dayton 7.1 WHIO and still no HD there either.

Must be a total collapse of the CBS HD feed tonight.

Bummer.

jdhughes63

09-23-07, 10:22 PM

Cold Case should be in HD. I have checked TW 912 (WKRC) and no HD. I switched to Dayton 7.1 WHIO and still no HD there either.

Must be a total collapse of the CBS HD feed tonight.

Bummer.
Now Shark is not showing up in HD on WKRC and WHIO. The CBS guys must have the Sunday night trainees working the circuit board. They had HD during the Bengals game but something has gone wrong since the game.

mikemikeb

09-23-07, 10:28 PM

Here in DC, Shark is in HD and 5.1. From a post earlier in the year, I think that WUSA (our OTA provider) and your CBS affils have different distribution methods somehow -- a bowl game's HD feed got cut off at 6 PM there while it didn't here...

jdhughes63

09-23-07, 10:36 PM

Nitewatchman

09-23-07, 11:11 PM

I am not up to "speed" on any current specifics regarding the current situation with CBS HD net to affiliate paths or if they are running seperate HD feeds for primetime programs if there are different start times for CBS primetime lineup in different markets due to different end times of 4pm games ...

HOWEVER, as has been mentioned many times here in the past, there can be issues involved for the CBS HD feed in *some* markets When a 4pm game aired in those markets runs into primetime(which includes 7pm/60 Minutes on Sunday), or runs "more" into primetime when other games/etc. shown in most markets didn't ..

For instance, at 11pm we still have primetime programming instead of local News on CBS because the Bengals/Seatle game ran over(past 7pm) ... [update: Think it was around 11:12pm or a little later primetime ended+Local news began on WKRC/WHIO[end update]. CBS in the past hasn't had the capability to send out different "primetime" HD feeds with different start times for different markets like they do for the SD feeds, perhaps that is still the case.

If this is still the case and WKRC or WHIO digital(both which carried the bengals game) went to the CBS HD feed for primetime at 8pm(assuming that is when it started), (or for that matter if they went to 60 minutes at 7pm then we wouldn't get the end of the bengals game), then the commercial breaks/etc. would be completely "different" times than for the analog station, making it difficult(probably impossible) for WKRC to properly insert their spots ... And then you'd also probably have "dead air/no programming" on the digital station and however long it is until the local news begins ...

When the 4pm game on CBS is a "national game" (or most markets are getting it or all the 4pm CBS games end about/around the same time), and goes over then in those cases CBS may delay the primetime HD feed, in which case only the markets that didn't get the game will "miss HD" ....

Perhaps something along those lines is what occured tonight as well ...

Hope that makes some sense ...

fafner

09-24-07, 01:47 AM

Again, you decided that one was better than the other with your eyes and perception. This is why these discussions aren't productive. By the numbers TWC has the better picture than D* for some channels (as has already been mentioned), but some may not notice the PQ difference themselves or believe that D*'s picture is better. Decisions about picture quality should not be made from message board input since you don't know if you're hearing from a fanboy, overly critical user, or hater.

I give up.

fafner

jimp2244

09-24-07, 07:32 AM

I can consistantly see that D* PQ is better than TWC in my house...regardless of what particular equipment at any one point in time.This is not possible, at least not for broadcast networks and they way things currently work. Unless things have changed recently, Time Warner sends the same exact mpeg2 stream that the stations send OTA. It is not possible for DirecTV to have better PQ than the original source, and in many if not all cases they are re-compressing that source to mpeg4 and/or reducing the resoultion. You may think the PQ is better because the loss of detail or resolution "hides" defects in the picture, and maybe you prefer this -- that's fine. But again, it is not possible for DirecTV to have a better picture than the original source, which is what viewers get OTA and from Time Warner.

For the record I am OTA-only by choice. I do not regularly compare Time Warner and DirecTV PQ. I am just stating the simple fact that it is not possible to exceed the source in picture quality.

jimp2244

09-24-07, 07:39 AM

Nobody wants to watch the Buckeyes vs Northwestern when the game is on ESPN.
I do. Those of us who are OTA-only appreciate what ABC did to let us watch the Buckeyes, in HD even. Sorry to bring this up again but I am just now reading the comments from over the weekend.

parishd

09-24-07, 09:30 AM

[cut}UOTE=jimp2244;11709655]This is not possible, at least not for broadcast networks and they way things currently work. Unless things have changed recently, Time Warner sends the same exact mpeg2 stream that the stations send OTA. It is not possible for DirecTV to have better PQ than the original source, and in many if not all cases they are re-compressing that source to mpeg4 and/or reducing the resoultion. You may think the PQ is better because the loss of detail or resolution "hides" defects in the picture, and maybe you prefer this -- that's fine. But again, it is not possible for DirecTV to have a better picture than the original source, which is what viewers get OTA and from Time Warner.
(cut)

Jimp2244 this at least coincides with what I was originally lead to believe. In my home I only have D* for NFL Ticket and I added STARZ but I have nothing else and D* has told me as long as I never change my service I can stay in that pricing plan (i.e. I have nor pay for any basic services).

I have TWC (basic not digital) on my main TV and 3 others; I'm not interested in putting boxes on all my other TV's when I go high def. I'm just trying to come up with the simplest transition plan but picture quality is a primary concern. It would be nice if there was more HD content but not if the quality is spotty. It appears to me that if I go TWC I can keep my other 3 on basic services w/o adding boxes and keep D* as is. If I go D* I would need to either put boxes on all TV's or continue to pay TWC for basic services in addition to upgrading D* services which will include a new antennae.

Having stated the above dreary options I'm still willing to plunk down my money if one were an obvious winner but it is clear the "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and I'm screwed either way I think.

ps thanx above for the OTA suggestion but I just can't handle one more option

thx dp

Splicer010

09-24-07, 09:44 AM

Then connect your TW directly to a HDTV with a QAM tuner (most sets nowadays have a QAM tuner built in) and get the locals for free in HD since OTA is too much for you to handle. Then you tell us what you think about the picture quality. Do it right now and watch channel 5 (WLWT) because the 'Today Show' is in HD.

blbrodbeck

09-24-07, 10:23 AM

New HD Channel for anyone with Direct TV

"Smithsonian Channel to Debut This Week"

Story here: http://apnews.excite.com/article/20070924/D8RRQN100.html

jim tressler

09-24-07, 10:30 AM

lol.. they need to get stuff figured out first.. can even get all receivers to see the test channels..

terryfoster

09-24-07, 10:51 AM

This is not possible, at least not for broadcast networks and they way things currently work. Unless things have changed recently, Time Warner sends the same exact mpeg2 stream that the stations send OTA. It is not possible for DirecTV to have better PQ than the original source, and in many if not all cases they are re-compressing that source to mpeg4 and/or reducing the resoultion.

The trick is this mpeg2 stream from TWC goes through a different set of components before it reaches your eye than the recompressed mpeg4 stream from D*. So it is possible that between the different decoders in each of the boxes (not to mention the qualities of the display device) the D* picture may look better to some people on some displays. We know the numbers and which sources should be the best looking on paper, but how that signal is processed is way too variable to just write off.

The good news is that TWC doesn't lock people into a contract, I believe D* offers a grace period to try them and cancel, and E* may have a similar grace period. So, people have the option to try the provider that gives them the content they desire and if the PQ is not to their liking they can cancel the service.

But before going through the hassle of having any of these services installed I still suggest viewing some demos to get some idea of the PQ differences first hand.

mikemikeb

09-24-07, 01:17 PM

No bowl games here. Not the right time of yearI know that. I was referring to a bowl game from late last year, actually. See this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9307002&highlight=bowl#post9307002).

Nitewatchman

09-24-07, 01:44 PM

I'm sure buried in this thread's 8000 posts my answer is resides (I tried a search with not much success) but I would appreciate someone directing me to a pertinent thread or simply give me this groups concensus and why.

Forgot to mention -- Really, I suspect you'll probably find more info+discussion on it in various "cable" and "D*" threads in hardware or programming area ... Sorry, I don't have any links to those thread handy, although it may take you some time to find the most informative posts ....

ps thanx above for the OTA suggestion but I just can't handle one more option

Keep in mind, D* only carries Cincinnati CBS, ABC, NBC, Fox HD affiliates via HD LiL in cincinnati market.

So, if you don't have a "clear QAM" tuner in your set(s) to receive the local digital(includes HD in most cases, currently) broadcast stations your cableco carries via a "Std" analog TW cable subscription* - -- You'll STILL need OTA with D* to receive PBS HD(there are 3 PBS stations transmitting usually "different" PBS HD schedules in Cincinnati area), or MyTV, or say, CW HD from the Dayton CW affiliate, or any of the SD digital multicast "channels" the local digital broadcast stations offer which D* doesn't carry via LiL (the tube from WXIX for example)....

* - Yes, you CAN receive digital broadcast signals(including HD) the cableco carries via "analog" cable(see Splicer010's suggestion on this) subscription - These broadcast "HD" services are usually carried unencrypted on cableco's most "basic" (lifeline) "analog" tier of service so they are available to all subscribers ...(update note: available doesn't necesssarily mean the subscriber has the equipment to decode+display those digital signals) ....

You'll also need OTA if you want to receive other signals that are available OTA but that TW doesn't carry ... Such as Cincinnati Low power stations WBQC-CA or WOTH-LP (these are analog only currently, but have permits from FCC to build digital stations - It's possible that could include HD, but probably not likely anytime soon), or any Dayton signals you may be able to receive OTA which TW doesn't carry in your area.

. So it is possible that between the different decoders in each of the boxes (not to mention the qualities of the display device) the D* picture may look better to some people on some displays. We know the numbers and which sources should be the best looking on paper, but how that signal is processed is way too variable to just write off.

Yes, there are really lots of reasons why that can happen ....... While I agree it isn't likely to be "productive discussion" personally, I don't see a problem with folks stating their subjective opinions on it as it pertians to *their specific* equipment(and for instance any calibration done on their display device). As long as it is understood that it is *very* subjective and dependant on many "variables" between the decoder+the screen ... and as you noted, such posts can easily be "tainted" by "fanboys" or "haters" of either service/provider as well ...

I know I would probably enjoy seeing such comparsions between different HD sources/providers via a professional HD studio monitor -- Like this one -- Yes, it's ~ $42K, and ~800 bucks just to add a analog component input to the thing :

(http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/DisplayModel?m=0&p=8&sp=20073&id=80823

BTW, there are some folks scattered about the forum that "look at" HD on such equipment, and personally I usually *do* believe them when they talk a little about what it "looks like" .....

------------------------------------

But, of course we can discuss what happens(what we know of at least) regarding different providers what happens between the actual "source" of any given programming AND the user's decoder ... (such as "HD-lite, any decode-reencode process to "convert" to another codec/etc) more objectively, and I think jimp2244 and splicer010 have already covered the "major" points regarding that ...

Either way, I suspect discussion or facts regarding ANY of that may not really be of much help in answering the question for any given person whether or not D* or TW PQ is "better" .... I suspect probably the only way to find out in any given case what any given person's "preference" is would be to try both and then decide for themselves ...

But before going through the hassle of having any of these services installed I still suggest viewing some demos to get some idea of the PQ differences first hand.

Seems like a good idea, but I think what you may see via such a comparision "demo" may end up looking very different than what will happen in someone's home with their specific equipment+the lighting conditions involved/etc ...

For example, I hope the display(s) used for the "demo" are at the very least calibrated by someone who knows what they are doing, AND that signal processing done by any circutiry in the display or the signal path between the decoder and "screen" is identical for the different sources being compared(same Input or input "type") ... And again, think it might be interesting to see such a "demo" comparison via a Pro-studio monitor ...

HDTV1998

09-24-07, 02:24 PM

This decision was made on the network level.

mlbUC

09-24-07, 02:28 PM

This decision was made on the network level.

Can you quote the post you were referring to?

Nitewatchman

09-24-07, 02:37 PM

Can you quote the post you were referring to?

Pretty sure he or she is reffering to ABC and/or ESPN decision to have OSU game run on Ohio ABC affiliates.

BTW, Keep in mind, some posters are prohibited(such as via "rules" imposed by their employer) to directly quote/respond to posts individually ...

edit: This may help, HDTV1998's previous posts/comments, and because WCPO began providing HD in 1998, one of the first stations in U.S. to do so indicates he is at WCPO .... I think we are all glad to see his or her contributions/participation here, no matter what "form" it may take ....

Paul210

09-25-07, 05:42 AM

Bengals game on 12-1 via OTA with TONS of bad macroblocking.

The macroblocking was the least of the problems. :D

Splicer010

09-25-07, 09:53 AM

The macroblocking was the least of the problems. :D

LOL!!! Agreed!!!;)

Nitewatchman

09-25-07, 11:39 AM

Although I'm a Bengals fan "first" and have been for 25+ years, Oddly enough I'm also a Browns and Steelers fan(pretty much in that order) ... Ravens OTOH .....

Anyway, there is one thing I've "liked" over the years when Bengals are losing, and we certianly had a lot of that in the 90's :

The commentary on "SOAS" on WCPO ... And now, we have that in HD!

-----------------

Update 12:15pm -- FYI, Just noticed WCVN (analog+digital) currently off air ...

plughplover

09-25-07, 12:47 PM

Update 12:15pm -- FYI, Just noticed WCVN (analog+digital) currently off air ...

Yup. Which means I've also lost the WLWT DT/WX feeds on TWC84 as well.
It will be interesting to see what we get after 8PM (after they get back up).

Nitewatchman

09-25-07, 12:58 PM

Update:

WCVN Analog came back up about 12:45pm, at 12:57pm, the digital is still down ..

Splicer010

09-25-07, 12:58 PM

Have we come to any conclusion as to why KET is affecting WLWT yet??? I really don't care about ch 5 being down during the soap operas but have been very happy to be able to watch WLWT after 8PM without having to go thru a lot of steps (though when KET switches to HD, WLWT's screen still blanks out for a moment and then returns as the weather Plus video ONLY even though the physical channel has not been changed. Then it does it a second time (after the 1 minute windoew has passed) and after I retune to 105-1 all is well until 12AM when KET switches back to SD).

Nitewatchman

09-25-07, 01:42 PM

WCVN-DT (digital) back up as of 1:35pm EDT (perhaps a bit earlier) ...

The odd "unknown usage"(as far as TS reader knows) stream at PID 0x0911 which has been there only since 9/15 is still there ... Still haven't gotten a "clean" capture From other KET transmitters since 9/15, but from I have gotten from them, I haven't "seen" that 0x0911 PID from the other transmitters ...

Nitewatchman

09-25-07, 01:50 PM

Have we come to any conclusion as to why KET is affecting WLWT yet???

Personally, at this point I think the most relevant issue involved for those having that problem probalby mostly involves poor receiver design regarding "QAM tuning"/PSIP issues ....

plughplover

09-25-07, 02:01 PM

Personally, at this point I think the most relevant issue involved for those having that problem probalby mostly involves poor receiver design regarding "QAM tuning"/PSIP issues ....

I concur.

It seems the firmware wants the ES PIDs, and when it can't find them it completely gives up rather than simply going with what it *could* find.

The two 'fixes' - send PMT stream for inactive programs and/or send 'service location descriptor' - are just ways to satisfy the firmware's 'wants' and avoid the failure case.

Splicer010

09-25-07, 02:02 PM

I tend to agree with you but then I think about my particular receiver being rated as one of the best there is. Of course I realize this really means nadda but for this issue to occur on only 1 channel just seems odd to me. Especially the audio issue on the KET feed(s). Strange how WLWT has no issues itself with either the channels but the audio on KET is affected. Just strange.

Nitewatchman

09-25-07, 02:12 PM

It seems the firmware wants the ES PIDs, and when it can't find them it completely gives up rather than simply going with what it *could* find.

The two 'fixes' - send PMT stream for inactive programs and/or send 'service location descriptor' - are just ways to satisfy the firmware's 'wants' and avoid the failure case.

Yep ... Of course, along the lines of your 12:47pm post , If WCVN-DT sends the PMT's for KET3,5,6 between 8pm~12am as they have been doing since 9/15, That still doesn't fix the problem on the (usually rare) occasions when the transmitter is down(at any time) ....

I don't think there has been an oppurtunity to see what happens in the following case --- But wonder what would happen on the receivers having the problem when Xmtr is down for all streams or if PMT's for KET3,5,6 aren't there between 8pm~12am -- IF TW sent service location descriptiors in CVCT during those times ... Seem to recall from one of your TSreader HTML files from when WCVN transmitter was down a couple of weeks ago during their tower painting, the CVCT info from TW was still there ...

plughplover

09-25-07, 02:24 PM

Yes, the CVCT was there, but no descriptor. It was after that event that I called TWC engr, as it was apparent that they were generating the CVCT (rather than mapping the TVCT).

I've been holding off following up with them as I wanted to see what happens with the change in wcvn's feed. Since they went off-air, will be interesting to see what happens this evening.

Sea Ray

09-26-07, 12:00 PM

Update:

A month ago I reported on a very washed out analog picture for TWC stations which I narrowed down to channel #42 and above. It was like you turned the color saturation on your remote from like 90 to 15. The problem began in mid August and I had two tech visits from TWC neither of which could say much more than "we don't control color."

I also discussed the problem with a TWC employee on the internet who validated my concerns. The bottomline is the problem was fixed as of last Thursday. I still don't know what caused it or what was done to fix it but I don't think 30 some channels on their own just boosted their color. Somehow TWC found the problem and figured out that they do have control over color saturation.

Splicer010

09-26-07, 12:58 PM

tvnick

09-26-07, 02:57 PM

I am happy to hear your problem(s) have been resolved. I know what I am about to say you still won't believe (I told you this when you first posted), but the cable co, infact no cable co, can control the chroma level and never could.

Regardless it is a good thing that you are happy again. :)

I'm curious Splicer, if an unterminated signal (high sync, high video) could have made the chroma appear to be low throughout the system. What do you think?

Splicer010

09-26-07, 03:06 PM

I'm curious Splicer, if an unterminated signal (high sync, high video) could have made the chroma appear to be low throughout the system. What do you think?

Not at all...

shantyman88

09-26-07, 08:40 PM

Not sure if this is the place for this:

I have posted in this and the Dayton thread regarding my local HD EPG issues with the Dish Network 722 HD DVR- the dreaded "Digital Service" and nothing else in the guide. I live in the Cincinnati DMA, but only get local OTA HD from Dayton because of my location (it's Fairfield). I pay for the Cincinnati locals as you might guess.

I spent 10 minutes telling a CSR that I have read of people on forums who get guide info for any locals they pick up, regardless of market, including someone I know personally (one of my best friends). He lives even closer to Cincinnati than I do and he gets program guide info for the Dayton channels OTA. He kept telling me that the local OTA channels have to match up with the locals I am paying for. Shockingly, when I asked him to escalate the call he repeated his mantra of "I'm sorry sir, it does not work that way."

Also, I was amused that earlier in the call he said he had to look up info on the 722 menus and then said later "I'm a senior technical CSR, I know how our receivers work."

Any suggestions as to how I should proceed? If this is not resolved soon (it has been going on 2 weeks now) it will be a dealbreaker for me.

Sea Ray

09-26-07, 11:40 PM

I am happy to hear your problem(s) have been resolved. I know what I am about to say you still won't believe (I told you this when you first posted), but the cable co, infact no cable co, can control the chroma level and never could.

Regardless it is a good thing that you are happy again. :)

Well I don't think prayer solved it, but we still don't know what caused it or what fixed it. I'd be curious as to those answers but as you say the most important thing is that it is now fixed.

cadet502

09-27-07, 07:38 AM

peteranton

09-27-07, 07:45 AM

Hey Folks, did anyone notice a slight audio problem with this morning's (9/27) broadcast? I am using a OTA tuner.

Their voices had a little digital warble, but I never saw any pixelizing that would indicate signal issues.

Splicer010

09-27-07, 08:28 AM

jimp2244

09-27-07, 08:33 AM

We will get a total of 5 NFL games this week, with 5 in HD. OTA-only viewers will get 5 games (will get ESPN Monday Night Football on WKRC-DT in HD). Cable-only viewers will get 5 games. CBS has the double-header this week.

Sunday Day Games:

1pm FOX (19 WXIX, 45 WRGT) Green Bay at Minnesota
Ron Pitts, JC Pearson, Dawn Mitchell

1pm FOX(45 WRGT) Chicago at Detroit*
Dick Stockton, Brian Baldinger, Jennifer Hammond

1pm CBS (12 WKRC, 7 WHIO) Baltimore at Cleveland+
Kevin Harlan, Rich Gannon

4pm CBS (12 WKRC, 7 WHIO) Pittsburgh at Arizona
Greg Gumbel, Dan Dierdorf

Sunday Night Football:

8:15pm NBC (5 WLWT, 2 WDTN) – Philadelphia at NY Giants
Al Michaels, John Madden, Andrea Kramer

Monday Night Football:

8:30pm ESPN (12 WKRC) – New England at Cincinnati
Mike Tirico, Ron Jaworski, Tony Kornheiser, Michele Tafoya, Suzy Kolber

*Bonus game for OTA viewers
+NOT in HD

jimp2244

09-27-07, 08:43 AM

Splicer010

09-27-07, 08:50 AM

Unfortunately this has not been the first wrong information he has provided. However it is the straw that broke this camels back to say something about it. Especially since acording to him I wasn't really watching him in HD since I only have a HD ready set.:rolleyes:

luebster

09-27-07, 08:51 AM

We will get a total of 6 NFL games this week, with 5 in HD. OTA-only viewers will get 6 games (will get ESPN Monday Night Football on WKRC-DT in HD). Cable-only viewers will get 5 games. CBS has the double-header this week.

Sunday Day Games:

1pm FOX (19 WXIX) Green Bay at Minnesota
Ron Pitts, JC Pearson, Dawn Mitchell

1pm FOX(45 WRGT) Chicago at Detroit*
Dick Stockton, Brian Baldinger, Jennifer Hammond

1pm CBS (12 WKRC, 7 WHIO) Baltimore at Cleveland+
Kevin Harlan, Rich Gannon

4pm CBS (12 WKRC, 7 WHIO) Pittsburgh at Arizona
Greg Gumbel, Dan Dierdorf

Sunday Night Football:

8:15pm NBC (5 WLWT, 2 WDTN) – Philadelphia at NY Giants
Al Michaels, John Madden, Andrea Kramer

Monday Night Football:

8:30pm ESPN (12 WKRC) – New England at Cincinnati
Mike Tirico, Ron Jaworski, Tony Kornheiser, Michele Tafoya, Suzy Kolber

*Bonus game for OTA viewers
+NOT in HD

Thank you for this summary, very nice. BTW, can we NOT have Gus Johnson call Bengals games again? Oh well, at least we don't have to listen to Don Criqui any more.

tvnick

09-27-07, 11:08 AM

The only problem I notice with WCPO HD news is that idiot John Matteris (sp?). His latest idiotic statments about HD is that if you have a HD ready TV it really isn't a HDTV:rolleyes:. Also said that you cannot hook up an antenna and receive HD but instead MUST upgrade your satellite or cable service.

I can appreciate WCPO trying to spread the word about HDTV but it is impossible when wrong information is given on a consistent basis.:mad:

Actually, you can see the script at this site: http://www.wcpo.com/content/news/localshows/dontwasteyourmoney/story.aspx?content_id=977f22b7-dff4-40a7-be3e-27fe59f09167

What he is talking about is an HD monitor that was sold without a tuner. There were many of these on the market early on (and still are) so that companies can sell HDTV's a lot cheaper because they did not include an ATSC tuner. I actually do have a Samsung set-top tuners for my HD monitor. He probably should have emphasized the fact that they did not have a tuner, but his information is correct.

Bill R (# 2)

09-27-07, 11:10 AM

I have posted in this and the Dayton thread regarding my local HD EPG issues with the Dish Network 722 HD DVR- the dreaded "Digital Service" and nothing else in the guide. I live in the Cincinnati DMA, but only get local OTA HD from Dayton because of my location (it's Fairfield). I pay for the Cincinnati locals as you might guess.

I spent 10 minutes telling a CSR that I have read of people on forums who get guide info for any locals they pick up, regardless of market, including someone I know personally (one of my best friends).

Any suggestions as to how I should proceed? If this is not resolved soon (it has been going on 2 weeks now) it will be a dealbreaker for me.

Some of us in the Cincinnati area have been complaining for over a year about this problem. At one time (back around March of 2006) we did get the guide data for Dayton. DISH changed their software and the policy now is if you don't subscribe to THAT local package (and we can't sucscribe to Dayton locals because we are not in that DMA) you won't get the guide data for the OTA stations that you can receive via the antenna.

You might want to send an email to ceo@echostar.com and see if you get any response.

Splicer010

09-27-07, 11:31 AM

his information is correct. What he is talking about is an HD monitor that was sold without a tuner.
Thanks for the link. YOU know and I know what he meant but he didn't say that so others that do not know better do not know what he is talking about. Unfortunately his script has little right about it:
It turns out many cheaper thin screen TV's sold the past 3 years are not really High Definition TV's. Instead, they're "HD-Ready TV's. There's a big difference.... because you don't really have an HD TV at all.

Yes it is a HDTV. It receives and decodes HDTV signals. Now how it receives those signals is not the issue. Had he clarified and stated that EDTV (480p) sets are not HD then that would have been correct.
"HD Ready" means the screen is capable of showing a High Definition picture. Hence it is a HDTV.

But you need a High Def cable tier, or a High Def DVD player to watch anything in HD. An antenna will NOT give you Channel 9 in HD.
An ATSC (8VSB) STB or tuner also accomplishes this so an antenna is able to be used. Also satellite offers HD programming but not mentioned.

"HD Ready" TV's are disappearing from store shelves... as the government requires all new TV's to be true High Def. This is a half truth. HD ready sets are are no longer being made due to the governments requirements that all digital TV's have an ATSC tuner built in. The government doesn't say a thing about all TV's must be HD. On the contrary all TV's must be able to receive digital BROADCAST (OTA using an antenna) signals. HD is just a happy side product of digital signals. Many 4:3 TV's are still made today (that are NOT 720p or 1080i or 1080p) and sold today in full compliance wit the governments rules because they contain a digital (ATSC) tuner.

So as you can see even you (through no fault of your own) have been dupped.

jimp2244

09-27-07, 11:49 AM

Sea Ray

09-27-07, 12:01 PM

He could have further clarified this by saying "if you get your HD service from a satellite co or cable co then you don't need a digital tuner, because the tuner is included in the setup box you get from them."

Now I know a lot of folks use their TV's tuner to get QAM signals from cable and OTA combined with satellite but the fact remains you don't need a digital tuner to get HD when you have service from satellite or cable. Let's face it, most people watching HD right now are using either cable or satellite.

Splicer010

09-27-07, 12:10 PM

My HDTV ready set carries the HDTV logo. Because it is indeed a HDTV set. No ands, ifs or buts about it. It can (and does) decode and display HDTV signals through BOTH its component and digital (DVI) inputs, not to mention still decoding and displaying analog signals via composite and S-video and its built in NTSC tuner.:D

tvnick

09-27-07, 12:27 PM

^ Technically, the term "HD Ready" refers to a high definition monitor, i.e. a set that does not have a built-in ATSC tuner. In order to use the term (and the logo) "HDTV" the set MUST have a built-in ATSC tuner. So, when he says an "HD Ready" set is not an HDTV, he is technically correct, although I agree it is confusing. What I think was more confusing was the fact that he says "But you need a High Def cable tier, or a High Def DVD player to watch anything in HD. An antenna will NOT give you Channel 9 in HD." That statement, in the context of an "HD Ready" set, is true as you cannot directly plug the antenna into the set. However, it's very misleading because he does not specify that this only applies to "HD Ready" sets, not "HDTVs," not to mention as you pointed out that you can hook an ATSC tuner up to the TV and use that with an antenna just as easily as you could hook up a cable or satellite box!

I agree with everything you guys say, and what Matarese says is a bit confusing. For many years in the television industry we have referred to monitors as using video inputs and TV's as having tuners and RF inputs. Thus the difference betweed HD Ready and HDTV. It seems these descriptions are questionable at best in the new era. Please remember though that he is trying to explain the transition to people who have very little knowledge of what's happening, unlike most of you AVS guys who are really on top of things. Most of the calls I get are from people who are shocked that High Def signals are going through the air right now, and I would be afraid to send them to this forum for fear their heads would explode. I have faith the WCPO engineers won't let incorrect information be broadcast on their station.

Splicer010

09-27-07, 01:07 PM

I have faith the WCPO engineers won't let incorrect information be broadcast on their station.

Unfortunately they already have:

But you need a High Def cable tier, or a High Def DVD player to watch anything in HD. An antenna will NOT give you Channel 9 in HD.

&

the government requires all new TV's to be true High Def.

Then if you want to get into it further (to add to the confusion) the "true High Def" comment has only come about as 1080p has been introduced recently. 720p & 1080i has only been labled as "High Def". Therefore according to Matarese the only TV's the government will allow to be made are 1080p sets which is wrong. There isn't even any 1080p sources out yet except for HD-DVD & Blu-ray players.:rolleyes:

tvnick

09-27-07, 01:21 PM

Unfortunately they already have:

&

Then if you want to get into it further (to add to the confusion) the "true High Def" comment has only come about as 1080p has been introduced recently. 720p & 1080i has only been labled as "High Def". Therefore according to Matarese the only TV's the government will allow to be made are 1080p sets which is wrong. There isn't even any 1080p sources out yet except for HD-DVD & Blu-ray players.:rolleyes:

Sorry to say I again disagree with you. In the first quote he is talking about HD monitors, and you do need an outboard device to view HD. In the second quote he is talking about HDTV's, and they are required by the government to have HD tuners if manufactured now.

1080P has no credence and should not be mentioned in discussions about American broadcast television, which is what Matarese is talking about. We will never broadcast in 1080P.

jimp2244

09-27-07, 01:22 PM

Then if you want to get into it further (to add to the confusion) the "true High Def" comment has only come about as 1080p has been introduced recently. 720p & 1080i has only been labled as "High Def". Therefore according to Matarese the only TV's the government will allow to be made are 1080p sets which is wrong. There isn't even any 1080p sources out yet except for HD-DVD & Blu-ray players.:rolleyes:1080p sets have been referred to as "Full HD" but I don't know about "true HD."

What brand and model set do you have? No one is disputing that an HD Ready set can display 720p and 1080i input signals, just as an HDTV can, but proper use of the "HD Ready" and "HDTV" logos is supposed to differentiate between a monitor (what you have from what you've described) and a TV (which is the same thing as a monitor except it has a built in ATSC tuner).

Splicer010

09-27-07, 01:46 PM

Sorry to say I again disagree with you.
And thats cool. Would be a one sided conversation otherwise;).

I will address the second quote since this is blatently false. All new TV's are NOT required to be HD as I stated earlier. The ONLY requirement is that all new TV's contain a ATSC tuner. Thats it. Resolution has nothing to do with it.

The 1st quote I say is false because it is not clear what type of HDTV he is speaking about as he just generalized.

jimp I concede that I may have confused "True HD" with "Full HD". It being a newer term it is entirely possible that I mixed the two up. However that still does not imply that Matarese was correct because as I stated for the second time above, this isn't true at all.

As far as my display it is indeed a HD "ready" set as I stated. I have a Toshiba 51H83 CRT RP HDTV. The picture is hard to see (camera sucks and does not take close-ups very well as you can tell) but is clearly the HDTV logo. Above the logo in small letters says "High Definition Television" then the "HDTV" logo then under the logo says "Monitor".

jimp2244

09-27-07, 01:59 PM

As far as my display it is indeed a HD "ready" set as I stated. I have a Toshiba 51H83 CRT RP HDTV. The picture is hard to see (camera sucks and does not take close-ups very well as you can tell) but is clearly the HDTV logo. Above the logo in small letters says "High Definition Television" then the "HDTV" logo then under the logo says "Monitor".That's the HDTV Monitor logo... different than the HDTV logo. None of this changes the fact that it's all confusing though! :D

Nitewatchman

09-27-07, 07:40 PM

I Know his reports "involve" HD specifically ... But, I think one mistake matarese is apparently making is that he is not explaining what DTV (digital television, especially OTA DTV) and what the DTV transistion is all about ... note: I say apparently because I've only seen a couple of his "HD" reports, not the recent reports being discussed here ....

HD is certianly important, especially to folks such as us, but it is just "one thing" that can be/is done with DTV .... WCPO-DT itself is an example of this, Their digital station multicasts a 720p (HD when available) service AND and a SD weather channel ...

Also, Perhaps this would be better information on a website that matarese could direct viewers to, but I think He, or anyone else trying to "explain" this stuff and educate OTA HD viewers also should explain that digital+"HD" stations transmit on both VHF+UHF, and the channel #'s you "see" usually aren't the channel #'s that correspond to frequency they are actually transmitting at. So, WCPO-DT transmits OTA on VHF channel 10, and 9.1 and 9.2 are only "remapped" "virtual" major/minor channel. I think this info regarding the "actual" channel of transmission and the "remapped" virtual channel # is important in some cases for folks to know because with a OTA only ATSC receiver, the PSIP "remapping info" can't be decoded/used unless a signal very near threshold required for "actual" DTV reception is achieved from *any* given station. This can be a problem for folks who may have their antenna "adjusted" such they aren't seeing any indication of signal from say, WCPO-DT(they defintely won't see an indication of signal on channel 9 or 9.x if it has never reached the threshold required for reception on a previous "scan'/etc).

It's amazing how "complicated" a simple thing like this can be, as different receivers handle this sort of thing "differently". Some receivers will let you tune to channel 10 and look at a "signal meter" until you can adjust antenna such that the reading from signal quality meter on it "peaks" high enough to achieve reception, some receivers will only let you do a "add channel scan", some will let you "scan in" an indivdual "RF"(in this case channel 10) channel #, and look at a meter while doing that .... Some receivers will show an "indication" of signal on a "RF" channel that is well "below" the S/N ratio required to decode the PSIP data, others may not have any sort of "signal meter" at all ...

-----------------------------------------------

In the first quote he is talking about HD monitors, and you do need an outboard device to view HD. In the second quote he is talking about HDTV's, and they are required by the government to have HD tuners if manufactured now.

That(as *you* are saying it) is certianly "accurate enough" for me, and seems accurate enough to me for HDTV (or HD Monitor) buyers as well ....

Substitue "HD tuner" with "DTV receiver", or "OTA DTV receiver", or I suppose "ATSC receiver" then it is entirely accurate. Suppose you could use "tuner" instead of "receiver" as well, although IMO it's somewhat less accurate.

splicer010 is certianly correct that government doesn't require the mandated DTV "tuners" to have HD output or display capability. Although Its possible, I certianly hope they never make a HDTV with a DTV receiver in it that doesn't output HD to the display circuitry involved .... I certianly don't know of any so far ...

Unless something has changed since I've last checked this, What they do actually require is OTA DTV reception capability in all devices which also have analog reception capability - that includes VCR's and DVD recorders as well as TV's. The "DTV tuner mandate" as it is often reffered(including by FCC) was phased in over several years by screen size, with larger sets required to have the DTV receiver's "first" ...By March 1, 2007, it applied to any device manufactured after that date intended to be used for reception of TV programming ... Again, Unless something has changed, A true "monitor" without even an analog tuner, or a DVD recorder without any "tuners" are not required to have a DTV receiver.

As for the "HD tuner" terminology used - As one example, My Zenith HDV420 STB has a "HDTV tuner" sticker on it, so I suppose that is an accurate enough description for most purposes.

However -- I think OTA(or ATSC) HD(or HDTV) receiver would probably be more accurate terminology to use.

A OTA DTV receiver(inside or outside of a display) which can "output" HD is also HD, or HDTV receiver or tuner ...

All ATSC compliant DTV receivers *MUST* be able to decode all the SD, ED and HD video formats, and must be able to output/display SD, but they don't necessarily have to have the capability to output HD ...

I and others sometimes reffer to any ATSC "HD" receiver as a "DTV receiver", and that is also accurate, but a DTV receiver doesn't HAVE to be a "HD receiver". In the past, all OTA DTV receivers available have had the capability to output HD ... But, now, we have SD only Digital TV's available with internal ATSC DTV receivers which decode HD and output/display it as SD, and soon we'll also have external DTV receivers which will only output SD .....

DTV decoder would still probably be accurate term however to "describe" a DTV or HD receiver .. But that's problematical as well, as "decoder" could refer to the receiver "as a whole" or only the MPEG2 decoder(just one part of the entire receiver) ......

.... the term "HD Ready" refers to a high definition monitor, i.e. a set that does not have a built-in ATSC tuner. In order to use the term (and the logo) "HDTV" the set MUST have a built-in ATSC tuner. So, when he says an "HD Ready" set is not an HDTV, he is technically correct, although I agree it is confusing. What I think was more confusing was the fact that he says "But you need a High Def cable tier, or a High Def DVD player to watch anything in HD. An antenna will NOT give you Channel 9 in HD." That statement, in the context of an "HD Ready" set, is true as you cannot directly plug the antenna into the set. However, it's very misleading because he does not specify that this only applies to "HD Ready" sets, not "HDTVs," not to mention as you pointed out that you can hook an ATSC tuner up to the TV and use that with an antenna just as easily as you could hook up a cable or satellite box!

Absolutely! However, OTA-only HD STB's needed by OTA viewers with "HD-ready" sets have allways been fairly "rare" and generally $200 or more retail, and seem to be becoming more rare, at least in terms of the number of models available. Which makes sense, given the things are now included in all new HDTV's. Thankfully at least, many models of fairly inexpensive ATSC receivers for PC's (either PCI cards or USB "stick" tuners) seem to currently be available.

that a HDTV=a HDTV *with* a internal OTA DTV receiver, and a "HD ready" or "HDTV monitor"=a HD display *without* a internal OTA DTV receiver has been the common terminology(and "logos") used(including on this forum) for as long as I can remember ...

I suppose the *confusing* part of this is that "HDTV" is also sometimes used at times as an abbreviation to refer to refer to "high definition video", (as also is "HD") which of course can be viewed "in HD" on either a HDTV or a HD monitor ....

Here's something else to "add" to the confusion .... I've read recently that "SDTV" now refers to something like "standard digital TV"(I can't remember exactly, something weird like that) rather than "standard definition TV"(which could be either NTSC analog or 480i digital), to describe a SDTV set that has a ATSC DTV receiver in it, but that only "displays" SD at best, and not HD or ED .... I'd "think" DTV might work there to "describe" a SD "only" digital set with internal ATSC receiver, but I suppose that could be confused with "digital television" in general ....

In any case, "HD ready" or "HD monitors" are probably pretty much a thing of the past, at least I hope so, other than that I have TWO of them and might have a hard time finding a "OTA HD STB" for them in the future if my current recievers hooked to them bite the dust ... In which case, other than SD from one of the soon to come DTV "converter boxes", or from a device such as DVD recorder or DVR with ATSC receiver, or ATSC tuner card for PC with HTPC "hooked up" to it(as is already the case for one of those displays), they would just receive "snow" on OTA(other than any analog LP stations that are still transmitting analog) after 2/17/09 ...

Nitewatchman

09-27-07, 09:39 PM

I wish MyTV would get hold of more HD transfers for the films they air, such as for "Bat21" tonight .... Obviously it's the "HD feed" WSTR is airing, with the MyTV logo posistioned mostly outside of 4x3 safe area ....

Honestly, I think the only things I've watched on WSTR-DT or MyTV over the last year were HD "Cider House Rules"(with the audio messed up by WSTR's "simulated" dd 5.1), and A HD bikini show ....

couple more comments regarding one of tvnicks earlier posts below :

--------------------------------------------

Please remember though that he is trying to explain the transition to people who have very little knowledge of what's happening,

Yep, and in a short time slot as well .... I think More can be done for instance in longer programs such as KET's "The ABC's of DTV" ...

Do think it's important they do their best to provide accurate info, however, as misinformation/inaccurate info can be *worse* than not knowing at all ..... I should first say, the bits on "HD" that I've caught from him On-air have generally seemed fine to me (it's been about a week since I've seen any of them), although to be honest, although I do watch WCPO News quite often, about the nicest way I can think of to say this is, I am really not much of "fan" of Matarese's stuff ...

But, even in the context of the entire piece(I just read the script), I think the below quote is still inaccurate and misleading because in context it says you only have two options to *watch HDTV* on a "HD ready set" ... either " A HD cable tier of High Def DVD player" .... :

But you need a High Def cable tier, or a High Def DVD player to watch anything in HD. An antenna will NOT give you Channel 9 in HD.

*IF* he would have said something like the following, then I think this would have been much more accurate and informative :

With the addition of an external HD set-tox-box supplied by your provider, an HD cable tier or HD satellite subscription are among the options available which will allow you to watch HD on a HD-ready set. A HD-DVD or blu-ray Player is another option. You can also use an antenna to watch WCPO in HD with the addition of a external over-the-air HD receiver.

unlike most of you AVS guys who are really on top of things.

I'm sure all of us appreciate that comment --- Certianly, there is an extreme amount of excellent and accurate information here. And, I think most of us do our best, but unfortunetly there is also much misinforation to be found on this very forum. In some cases, It may be difficult at times for readers "know" what is true and what isn't ....

Most of the calls I get are from people who are shocked that High Def signals are going through the air right now, and I would be afraid to send them to this forum for fear their heads would explode.

I can relate to that .... And I think It can take quite a bit of research to make the best choices, such as for equipment purchases ... This was over 6 years ago, I'm not sure if it's gotten any "easier" for folks, but I do know I can't overstate how useful this forum was to *me* when I was first researching HD and what equipment would best work for my needs.

I do think we all do our best to answer anyone's questions in an accurate and "understandable" manner, and the "stickies" at top of various forum areas "of interest"(such as the OTA reception FAQ in hardware area) should be quite beneifical for anyone looking for "basic" info as well --

Also, There are no "dumb questions" here, really, no one should feel "dumb" because they don't know something, or because, no matter how "smart" they are, if they get something wrong and are "corrected" for it ...

but, yeah, It can be quite difficult at times to accurately and concisely and in an understandable manner address some of this "HD" or DTV reception stuff .... For example, Sometimes folks think they are asking "simple questions" (such as will I have no problems receiving HD with an indoor antenna from such and such location?) for which there really aren't simple "yes or no" answers they're looking for ....

"Maybe", you'll just have to try it and see" is about as 'simple and accurate' as a answer to that question gets .... I'm not sure how useful an answer like that is, but hopefully it's useful to some extent ....

tvnick

09-28-07, 09:06 AM

I wish MyTV would get hold of more HD transfers for the films they air, such as for "Bat21" tonight .... Obviously it's the "HD feed" WSTR is airing, with the MyTV logo posistioned mostly outside of 4x3 safe area ....

Honestly, I think the only things I've watched on WSTR-DT or MyTV over the last year were HD "Cider House Rules"(with the audio messed up by WSTR's "simulated" dd 5.1), and A HD bikini show ....

couple more comments regarding one of tvnicks earlier posts below :

--------------------------------------------

Yep, and in a short time slot as well .... I think More can be done for instance in longer programs such as KET's "The ABC's of DTV" ...

Do think it's important they do their best to provide accurate info, however, as misinformation/inaccurate info can be *worse* than not knowing at all ..... I should first say, the bits on "HD" that I've caught from him On-air have generally seemed fine to me (it's been about a week since I've seen any of them), although to be honest, although I do watch WCPO News quite often, about the nicest way I can think of to say this is, I am really not much of "fan" of Matarese's stuff ...

But, even in the context of the entire piece(I just read the script), I think the below quote is still inaccurate and misleading because in context it says you only have two options to *watch HDTV* on a "HD ready set" ... either " A HD cable tier of High Def DVD player" .... :

*IF* he would have said something like the following, then I think this would have been much more accurate and informative :

With the addition of an external HD set-tox-box supplied by your provider, an HD cable tier or HD satellite subscription are among the options available which will allow you to watch HD on a HD-ready set. A HD-DVD or blu-ray Player is another option. You can also use an antenna to watch WCPO in HD with the addition of a external over-the-air HD receiver.

I'm sure all of us appreciate that comment --- Certianly, there is an extreme amount of excellent and accurate information here. And, I think most of us do our best, but unfortunetly there is also much misinforation to be found on this very forum. In some cases, It may be difficult at times for readers "know" what is true and what isn't ....

I can relate to that .... And I think It can take quite a bit of research to make the best choices, such as for equipment purchases ... This was over 6 years ago, I'm not sure if it's gotten any "easier" for folks, but I do know I can't overstate how useful this forum was to *me* when I was first researching HD and what equipment would best work for my needs.

I do think we all do our best to answer anyone's questions in an accurate and "understandable" manner, and the "stickies" at top of various forum areas "of interest"(such as the OTA reception FAQ in hardware area) should be quite beneifical for anyone looking for "basic" info as well --

Also, There are no "dumb questions" here, really, no one should feel "dumb" because they don't know something, or because, no matter how "smart" they are, if they get something wrong and are "corrected" for it ...

but, yeah, It can be quite difficult at times to accurately and concisely and in an understandable manner address some of this "HD" or DTV reception stuff .... For example, Sometimes folks think they are asking "simple questions" (such as will I have no problems receiving HD with an indoor antenna from such and such location?) for which there really aren't simple "yes or no" answers they're looking for ....

"Maybe", you'll just have to try it and see" is about as 'simple and accurate' as a answer to that question gets .... I'm not sure how useful an answer like that is, but hopefully it's useful to some extent ....

As I said earlier, the average TV viewer would not take the time to read your last two posts in an attempt to learn more about digital TV. They want to turn their TV on and watch shows without thinking about DTV, HDTV, HD ready. In fact my head is about to explode from reading your posts.....

Sea Ray

09-28-07, 09:35 AM

It does need to be geared for the novice so I think the question that should be asked is after watching John Matarese, "do the viewers know that you can receive HD (such as Ch 9 news) for free by merely exchanging their analog TV with an HDTV? And do they know that in order to receive HD on an HD ready TV they need satellite or cable?" I'm not so sure those two points were clear and that should have been primary objectives of his report.

jimp2244

09-28-07, 10:32 AM

And do they know that in order to receive HD on an HD ready TV they need satellite or cable?"That is not true. With an HD Ready set you need a set top box whether it be for cable, satellite, or OTA. You do NOT need cable or satellite to use the HD Ready TV set!!

Nitewatchman

09-28-07, 11:38 AM

As I said earlier, the average TV viewer would not take the time to read your last two posts in an attempt to learn more about digital TV.

They don't have to. Take it or leave it.

They want to turn their TV on and watch shows without thinking about DTV, HDTV, HD ready.

I do it all the time, don't have to "think" about it.

for HD, all I had to to was buy HDTV and hook it up to antenna I was already using.

In fact my head is about to explode from reading your posts.....

Guess I better stop posting here, then.

jimp2244

09-28-07, 12:36 PM

In fact my head is about to explode from reading your posts.....My head is going to explode from you quoting the entire damn post! :)

slimm

09-28-07, 12:45 PM

Guess I better stop posting here, then.

Don't stop posting. Tvnick can just stop reading :D

shantyman88

09-28-07, 12:49 PM

Not sure about the Dish equipment, but with Direct, there is a place in antenna setup to define an additional market area.

You might try checking in over at the Dish section on www.dbstalk.com.

Good luck.

Thanks for the help.

Nitewatchman

09-28-07, 01:24 PM

Forgot to mention earlier -- I noticed during "The War" on CET-HD earlier this week, WCET has been inserting a "WCET" Cincinnati bug for TOH ID. Although, Looked like one of the first times they tried it on Sunday Night they inserted a "Tornado Warning" instead, LOL ...

Anyway, I liked it much better than them breaking into the program to insert the Hourly ID ....

Don't stop posting. Tvnick can just stop reading :D

No problem, Just meant it as a joke ....

Sea Ray

09-28-07, 01:41 PM

That is not true. With an HD Ready set you need a set top box whether it be for cable, satellite, or OTA.

Yes, that says it better!

Sea Ray

09-28-07, 01:46 PM

for HD, all I had to to was buy HDTV and hook it up to antenna I was already using.

That's about as simple as it gets. I'm not so sure folks listening to Matarese's report came away knowing this. It's best to emphasize these simple points in a report such as this on the evening news.

Splicer010

09-28-07, 02:15 PM

That's about as simple as it gets. I'm not so sure folks listening to Matarese's report came away knowing this. It's best to emphasize these simple points in a report such as this on the evening news.

Exactly the point I was trying to make...

Nitewatchman

09-28-07, 02:16 PM

The text 4 paragraphs up from the bottom, and the "last" line/paragraph in following article may be of interest regarding recent discussion of "inaccurate and misleading" information, in this case regarding OTA DTV not "just" HD :

http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0157/t.8665.html

tvnick

09-28-07, 03:13 PM

No problem, Just meant it as a joke ....[/QUOTE]

I knew you did, this forum would not be near as interesting without you.

jimp2244

09-28-07, 03:58 PM

NFL Week 4 Games

Had to update the list of Week 4 Games for Cincinnati because WRGT is now listed as carrying the Green Bay at Minnesota game, meaning we go from 6 games to 5 OTA (Cable keeps the same number of games at 5). I updated the original post here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11741991#post11741991):

cokebear

09-28-07, 04:37 PM

No longer do I have to worry about what I can and can't do at that stupid apartment complex because we have been living in our new-to-us house for a couple of months now.:)

Anyway here's the question that I now have. Please bear with me I know this isn't the right thread for this but perhaps someone here knows or can point me in the right direction.

I want to add an HDTV tuner to my pc to record OTA and QAM channels and then play them over my XBOX360 as a media center extender. The big Q is will WinTV-HVR-1800 http://www.hauppauge.com/pages/products/data_hvr1800.html work?

Nitewatchman

09-28-07, 06:38 PM

As they say, if at first you don't succeed, then try again ...

So, I'm going to try *this part* again .....

Most of the calls I get are from people who are shocked that High Def signals are going through the air right now, and I would be afraid to send them to this forum for fear their heads would explode.

In case it is of any use for you, here are links to some "basic" HDTV info perhaps you might want to check out+see if you want to send them to ....

HDTVPrimer Main page (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/)

AVSforum Over-the-air Digital Television Reception FAQ: New to OTA? Start here! (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=611957)

FCC's DTV Information website for Consumers (http://www.dtv.gov/) - Yes, They tell you about HDTV in here as well .... The following pages in the "consumer Corner" and "more For consumers" sections at this site should be of most interest :

DTV Basics/What is DTV. (http://www.dtv.gov/whatisdtv.html)

Consumer FAQ's (http://www.dtv.gov/consumercorner.html)

What you should know before you buy (http://www.dtv.gov/shopgde.html)

DTV - What every consumer should know (Booklet in PDF format) (http://www.dtv.gov/DTV_booklet.pdf)

-----------------------------

*DO* keep in mind This thread is *specific* to Cincinnati "local info and reception", issues and is only a small part of AVSforum. As with most threads on AVSforum, this thread is not really a place to answer everyone's "basic" questions about HDTV and DTV, if we did that, we'd be constantly repeating ourselves(which does tend to happen anyway, occasionally) and getting "in the way" of On topic discussions.

Certianly, we encourage anyone to participate and read this thread, and again, there are no "dumb questions" here ... However, I think folks will likely get more out of it, and find some of the discussion here much easier to comprehend/understand if they do a little research such as via the info provided at links above and gain some basic understanding of HDTV and DTV first ...

Nitewatchman

09-28-07, 07:05 PM

Please bear with me I know this isn't the right thread for this but perhaps someone here knows or can point me in the right direction.

The HTPC forum at AVSforum would probably be a good place to look or ask ... Also, http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/default.aspx is another good place, they even have a specific section dedicated to MCe extenders, including xbox.

I want to add an HDTV tuner to my pc to record OTA and QAM channels and then play them over my XBOX360 as a media center extender. The big Q is will WinTV-HVR-1800 http://www.hauppauge.com/pages/products/data_hvr1800.html work?

I don't use an extender (HTPC here is hooked up directly to HD display via ATI X1600+DVI to HDMI cable), but FWIW, I can tell you my Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-1600 works great for OTA HD DVR --- Works just fine with XP or vista Media Center as well ...

From what I've read (quickly) I think the HVR-1800 is pretty much the same as the HVR-1600, but is a PCI express card, the 1600 is full height PCI card ...

Again, I have no experience with using XBOX360 As MCE extender, nor have I read too much about it --- so, others who have can probably provide better info .... That being said, FWIW, if there are no weird "gotcha's" involved, seems to me what you want to do it should work ...The way a card like the HVR-1800 works, if there are any issues involved with the extender, I wouldn't think they would be specfic to the tuner card ...

Hope that helps in some way ...

Splicer010

09-28-07, 07:30 PM

Nitewatchman

09-29-07, 02:24 AM

Thought I should make a couple more comments as something doesn't quite "feel" resolved ... Not sure if it is important enough to even mention, really, if so, Dunno what it is, exactly, but hopefully this will help in some way ...

My head is going to explode from you quoting the entire damn post! :)

I've went over it again, several times now, and am having difficulty understanding what I may have said in there that may be some sort of problem .. Maybe it's not and I shouldn't even be mentioning it, again, but it's difficult for me to tell given the nature of some of the responses I've gotten about it ...

If it is, if anyone who wishes to do so (via PM if you like as I don't want to clog up the thread for this unless perhaps you think it could be useful info for others as well), let me know what it is I said that was "wrong", or that I could have worded better or more clearly/etc., then perhaps I can make efforts to correct those sorts of "errors", and make such posts "clearer" in the future .... Thanks ...

I knew you did, this forum would not be near as interesting without you.

It wasn't quite completely meant as a joke, but I couldn't find a way to say it properly, and it doesn't have anything to do with your posts ... I think I mentioned something along these lines a few weeks ago(but have ended up posting a lot recently anyway, LOL) so, I'll try to say it like this :

First, I really enjoy reading posts on this forum more than posting, and secondly, it really *does* often take more time+effort than I really have "freely available" to participate at the level I sometimes do here, especially as you never know what you're going to get yourself "into" when you do post something ... Thirdly, there are more than enough folks here on this thread specifically nowadays to answer anyone's questions, and I certianly do not wish to keep others from posting more if they like ...

So, don't anyone be surprised if you see me not post for long periods(it won't be the first time) .... It doesn't mean I'm not "still here" ...

tbenson81

09-29-07, 11:16 AM

Are we going to get to see USC vs Washington tonight at 8 on ABC as the guide currently says? Or are we going to have to watch the Buckeyes on 2 channels again?

Splicer010

09-29-07, 11:29 AM

I would go by what the guide says...If it states that at 8PM ABC will show USC/WASH game then that is probably what will be shown...Of course I don't know what guide you are using...

jdhughes63

09-29-07, 12:06 PM

Are we going to get to see USC vs Washington tonight at 8 on ABC as the guide currently says? Or are we going to have to watch the Buckeyes on 2 channels again?

My schedule says the Buckeyes are in ESPN2 and WCPO in Cincinnati. I don't know about the Dayton station

tbenson81

09-29-07, 03:34 PM

Its the TW guide.....same thing as last week. Buckeyes were on ESPN at 330 and the guide said Michigan vs Penn St on ABC at 330

What happened in actuality? Buckeyes on both ESPN and ABC!

Didnt seem right to me but everyone on these boards praised it!

Now the same exact thing is happening this week, Buckeyes on ESPN2, guide says USC on WCPO but Im sure we will be watching the Buckeyes on 2 channels again and miss a good game!

PS - Again, I dont care what anyone elses opinion is or how many "buckeye fans" are here in Cincinnati. There are Buckeye fans everywhere with its 60,000 + undergrad enrollment. The fact remains simple and that is simply the Buckeyes are NOT a local team. Im sure I will hear the Buckeye fans here cry that they are, by they are not. The local teams here are UC, Xavier and Miami.

Again we will miss a really good nationally televised game because the stations here in Cincinnati are living in a dreamworld and the situation even worsens when they are on ESPN2 anyways!

If there were more true sports fans on these boards, they would understand

Tony

tbenson81

09-29-07, 04:02 PM

If the buckeyes are on ESPN at 8:00 and Cincinnati wants to broadcast it on a local channel NBC,CBS, ABC or FOX,

Why is it that ABC (WCPO) has to pick it up? Why cant NBC, CBS or FOX's local affiliate show the game?

Is it possible for them to show the game on CBS instead of Florida vs Auburn?

How is this decided?

I was thinking that since Disney owns both ABC and ESPN thats why.....but when the Bengals are on ESPN - that game is shown locally on CBS.....

mlbUC

09-29-07, 10:02 PM

tbenson, you bitched when they showed the end of the UC vs Miami game 2 weeks back, now you are saying they are the local teams and should be on?

Anyway, ABC/ESPN NEVER announced the switch this game, they did last game. You apparently are living in the dream world since you don't hear about this kind of stuff ahead of time... you must not be a REAL sports fan.

Splicer010

09-29-07, 10:08 PM

Its the TW guide.....same thing as last week.
Now the same exact thing is happening this week, Buckeyes on ESPN2, guide says USC on WCPO but Im sure we will be watching the Buckeyes on 2 channels again and miss a good game!

Tony

The USC/Wash game is EXCELLENT on WCPO!!!

:rolleyes:So quick to judge yet so slow to apologize...:rolleyes:

You owe all of us an appology for your BS you have dished out...

mlbUC

09-29-07, 11:12 PM

BTW, the local team (UC) looks pretty good over on Versus tonight. 21-3 right now, 2nd quarter.

Nitewatchman

09-29-07, 11:17 PM

Go Cats! I have VS (SD) on a free preview from E* this month ...

BTW, in case anyone else here didn't notice, WKRC-DT had the last U.C. game on 12-2 (CinCW) ...

tbenson81

09-30-07, 12:25 AM

Splicer010

09-30-07, 09:51 AM

You should apologize for all the self righteous BS that you have been spewing on here.:rolleyes:

This week the game hadn't even yet begun and you started spewing off trash again that it would not be shown.:rolleyes:

And for you to actually believe the TW TV Guide programming channel with more than a grain of salt means you really have no clue as to what is going on around you. At best that guide is mediocre when it comes to programming notes/changes and always has been. It is a GUIDE, not law.:rolleyes:

And lastly for you to even contemplate that WCPO read your post and changed the way they broadcast because of you is just the most ludicrous satement yet that has spewed from your keyboard.:rolleyes:

mlbUC

09-30-07, 10:11 AM

What am I supposed to apologize for? Is it for the fact that WCPO actually got it right this week? I dont think so

They probably read my posts and had some sense talked into them

MLBUC - your posts are almost comical because you talk in circles and never really sustain much of an argument.

Coming from you that is comical. Your argument has nothing to do with a business model (as in showing all the comercials you have sold), you argue based on emotion. That is a terrible way to argue.

If you recall and you probably want to scroll back a few pages, my beef with the UC game wasnt that it was aired (I believe it should have been). Its the fact that they didnt switch games when it was 104-3 with 2 minutes to go.

Read my last paragraph, then reread my response to you earlier. I said you complained about WKRC showing the end of the UC vs Miami game and not finishing it out. Once again, an emotional argument, not one based on common sense (the business model/commercials sold statement).

Point 2 - the game last week was not "announced" either and the siutation this week was exactly the same. So why did WCPO play OSU last week when they were on ESPN and not this week?

Because they have finally come to their senses and realized that there is football outside of the state of Ohio.

YES THEY DID. ABC AND ESPN BOTH SAID THAT ABC WOULD SHOW THE OSU VS NORTHWESTERN GAME ON ABC, AND DID IT A WEEK BEFORE THE GAME! You can blame Time Warner for not switching the ESPN feed as they were supposed to. They were supposed to put the Michigan game on in place of Ohio State on ESPN. It isn't WCPO's fault, they did what they were supposed to do.

Splicer - you are right....the USC game did look great on ABC and the Penn-St vs Michigan game would of looked great last week as well. Hopefully WCPO can keep up the good work

You are hilarious. Obviously the local stations are run by idiots, so why don't you just move away. You can go move to some city with no local teams and not big state school... therefore you only get the best games around the country. Bozeman, Montana sounds like it would work for you.