Cincinnati, OH - HDTV [Text View] - Page 34

jimp2244

10-02-07, 11:51 AM

Is anybody here half way between Dayton and Cincy? I'm in Monroe and half of the OTA signals are south (Cincy) and half are north (Dayton) all of which are 21-23 miles away each direction. I'd like to get both and wondered if anyone had a similar situation and cared to share their solution. I don't have anything setup or bought yet.

I've considered:

- A multi-directional uhf antenna capable of picking up both.
- Two uhf directional antennas and a combiner
- One uhf directional antenna and a rotor (would prefer not to do this)

Also does anyone have suggestions on a good multi-directional uhf antenna?I'd suggest the second option (two directional antennas with combiner). However, for the Cincinnati stations, you'll want to use a UHF/VHF combo (a UHF/hi-VHF combo is probably fine as well), as WCPO-DT (ABC) is on VHF 10 and WKRC-DT (CBS) will be switching to VHF 12 after they turn off their analog channel in Feb. 2009. If you have issues with the combiner you could always use an A-B switch. If you use the A-B switch option you'll need to run two cables, but if you do it at the same time it shouldn't be much more work. Your first option may work as well, but there's no way to know without trying it first. I'm not sure, but I think the antenna that Splicer010 built is somewhat "bi-directional" and if Cincinnati and Dayton are opposite directions something like that may work for you.

I am in the Sharonville area and use one directional antenna with rotor, but that is mostly so that I can "tinker" a bit and try to receive distant stations when conditions allow.

jim tressler

10-02-07, 11:57 AM

I use the channel master 4221, pointed at dayton and it works fine for the dayton channels - with the exception of the CW Dayton station. I also have an old sensar that points to cincinnati. I use an a/b switch with no problems. However, if I take the channel master and point THE BACK towords Cincinnati, I get all the Cincinnati channels just fine - which leads me to believe that if I were in the middle as Monroe is - 1 antenna would work. (Note, the 4221 has excellent hi vhf properties which WCPO is and WKRC will be) Since I am out in Maineville and point the back at cincinnati, the front actually points to columbus, so no love for me.. but in my redneck engineering degree tells me it should work.. as always your mileage will vary and I am sure jeff can add the technical info to this post :) - but the bottom line, the channel master 4221 should work for both.. You can get it online for $25 + plus s/h - I paid $3 last year.. http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4221.htm

slimm

10-02-07, 11:59 AM

I just tried TW-980 from my location in Miami Township, Clermont County. Nothing there. I did a reboot and still nothing there. They said by Wednesday for sure in the Kiesewetter blog. I'll try again tonight.

Did you try in diagnostic mode? Right now, that's the only way to tune it. Not a big deal for me as there really isn't anything on worth watching:D

Bruhub

10-02-07, 12:37 PM

Awesome thanks for the responses. The cincy channels are at between 194 and 197 degrees and the dayton are between 31 and 32 degrees. Not quite 180 difference do you think that would make a difference (if trying the one antenna approach)?

jdhughes63

10-02-07, 12:38 PM

Did you try in diagnostic mode? Right now, that's the only way to tune it. Not a big deal for me as there really isn't anything on worth watching:D

I haven't tried the diagnostic mode. I either don't have that or don't know how to get to that mode

jim tressler

10-02-07, 12:47 PM

Its trial and error, as well as the receiver.. for example, my fusion 5 in the pc (5th gen lg chip) actually does pretty well on the channel master - to the point where it often times (60%) works for both - whereas the tuner in the hr20 is garbage and wont even tune into any cincinnati station with the antenna 100% towards dayton.. I think being in monroe and only a few degrees off (I am at 1 degree for dayton and 220 degrees for cincinnati) it may work.. but hell.. give it a shot!

Awesome thanks for the responses. The cincy channels are at between 194 and 197 degrees and the dayton are between 31 and 32 degrees. Not quite 180 difference do you think that would make a difference (if trying the one antenna approach)?

Bruhub

10-02-07, 12:54 PM

Its trial and error, as well as the receiver.. for example, my fusion 5 in the pc (5th gen lg chip) actually does pretty well on the channel master - to the point where it often times (60%) works for both - whereas the tuner in the hr20 is garbage and wont even tune into any cincinnati station with the antenna 100% towards dayton.. I think being in monroe and only a few degrees off (I am at 1 degree for dayton and 220 degrees for cincinnati) it may work.. but hell.. give it a shot!

I'm hoping to buy everything and be able to hook it up next week. I'll try it out and post the results.

Splicer010

10-02-07, 01:02 PM

I'm hoping to buy everything and be able to hook it up next week. I'll try it out and post the results.

You can try building one like I did...It works pretty well and cost me $5 for the matching transformer as every other part I had laying around...

Nitewatchman

10-02-07, 01:08 PM

(Note, the 4221 has excellent hi vhf properties which WCPO is and WKRC will be

See "using a UHF antenna for VHF" section near bottom of this page :

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

The cincy channels are at between 194 and 197 degrees and the dayton are between 31 and 32 degrees. Not quite 180 difference do you think that would make a difference (if trying the one antenna approach)?

Here is a post from a fellow who has removed the reflector screen from his CM4228 to make it "bi-directional", he reports good results regarding receiving stations in markets roughly ~180degrees difference from his location --- YMMV, and if you try something like this keep in mind it will not only "change" the design/performance characteristics of the antenna, it will also greatly reduce CM4228's Hi-VHF performance(it would be even worse for a CM4221, which offers, at best poor VHF-HI performance as it is) ...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11658728#post11658728

update: If something like that (removing the relector screen from CM4228 to make it bi-directional - I dunno if you can do that with a CM4221 or not, I've never had one to see if it's possible/if it more "signifcantly effect" it's reception performance) works well enough for the Dayton+Cincinnati UHF stations, you could add a VHF-HI antenna such as this Winegard YA-6713 (http://www.starkelectronic.com/wya6713.htm) for Cincinnati VHF digital station(s) WCPO-DT (and WKRC-DT after analog shut off) with a VHF/UHF joiner such as the CM0549 listed on this page (http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/joiners.htm ).

Certianly not a bad idea to try a "single antenna" such as CM4221 before adding anything else to "see what you get", but overall, Expecting an antenna such as UHF only CM4221 to receive signals on VHF "adequetly enough", or to receive signals off the 'back side' of it may not be the best way to go, IMO -- It designed to "reject" a good amount signal off the back side of antenna, and it doesn't handle multipath coming in from the "back side" very well either -- What they mean by "multi-directional" in its case is that it can receive signals adequetly from a wider range of bearings (about 45 degrees difference) off the FRONT side of antenna -- But it still doesn't offer the signal gain/directivity(better directivity also=better handling of multipath) of aUHF antennas such as CM4228 or XG91 ...

Update 2 :

I'd suggest the second option (two directional antennas with combiner).

The problem with that is, the antenna aimed towards Dayton will also pick up some appreciable portion weaker+usually "dirty"/multipath laden signals from the Cincinnati stations off the 'back side' of antenna, and the same is true of Antenna the aimed towards Cincinnati for The Dayton signals ... These "unwanted" portions of signals will then be "mixed in" with the 'wanted' portions of the signals coming from directions each antenna is aimed .... To say it in a "non-technical way" making it more difficult for receiver to "sort out" what is what. Especially in regards to multipath - which you'll defintely have to some extent because the antennas will be out of phase when connected in this manner, but also in regards to selectivity issues, such as 1st adajcent channel issues, or for that matter co-channel interference issues due to enhanced signal propagation that sometimes occur, say coming in off the Dayton antenna from a Columbus station ...

Also, What can be an issue with combining two antennas aimed in different directions together is that you may think it's working "just fine" the day you hook up the antennas, but say, when leaves fall off trees, or when the wind starts blowing the tree limbs around, or an aircraft flies over your house, or something "happens" in the middle of winter when it's too cold to "mess with the antenna", signal/multipath conditions may change to an extent that suddenly, you start getting reception relateed "dropouts" on one or many stations which wouldn't occur if you were using seperate, directional Cincinnati/Dayton antennas and a A/B switch before receiver to switch between them ......

Seperate directional antennas (for both VHF/UHF for Cincinnati digitals, UHF only for Dayton digitals) on seperate feedlines(coax runs) from each antenna setup with A/B switch(s) before receiver(s) to select between them, *OR* VHF/UHF (or seperate VHF/UHF antennas) antenna with rotor are really the best "most likely to work well and provide reliable reception 24/7, 365 days per year" option available at present for this kind of circumstance ... That's not saying other options *might not* work if you get "lucky", at least to some extent, just saying those are the options *most likely* to work well and require less "trial and error" work .....

There is also the "smartenna" interface, and at least one or 2 models of "smartennas" that should work well, but I don't think many receivers/antennas support it .. Basically, it allows the receiver to "adjust the antenna's design" to provide best results for reception of any station in any direction ... One problem with it is, for example, you can't use it to say, "receive stations" on one receiver and different stations on another receiver you want to use with OTA as well ...

slimm

10-02-07, 01:45 PM

I haven't tried the diagnostic mode. I either don't have that or don't know how to get to that mode

If you have the Pace HD box, on the box itself, press select and exit. Keep pressing both at the same time until you see the word "diag" on the cable box display. You should then be able to tune to 980.

Edit:As of 7:18 pm, it's now showing up in the guide with program data.

Bruhub

10-02-07, 06:33 PM

digital only

10-02-07, 07:55 PM

Another followup question. If I decided to install the antenna in my attic would a bigger antenna still be better (assuming it still fits in the attic)? Basically would a CM4228 be overkill in my attic when the stations I want are only 19-23 miles away or would it work better than the CM4221?

I am in Liberty twp only about 5 miles south of you. I use a big Radio shack antenna in the attic and it works great for Cincy and Dayton, altnerately, you could possibly do just as well with a small antenna on the roof. I have a friend who had rabbit ears on top of his tv off of kyle station and got decent reception on about 1/2 of the local stations.

nightowl2k2

10-02-07, 09:38 PM

Anyone heard anything about our beloved local TWC Cincy adding TBS in HD for the baseball playoffs??

I live in Maineville (ex-Adelphia) and I just noticed that I have TBS "HD" on channel 980 as well. Everything is stretched to fit a 19:9 screen so I am not sure if the games will be in HD or just stretched

mikemikeb

10-03-07, 12:00 AM

Another followup question. If I decided to install the antenna in my attic would a bigger antenna still be better (assuming it still fits in the attic)? Basically would a CM4228 be overkill in my attic when the stations I want are only 19-23 miles away or would it work better than the CM4221?Neither the 4221 or 4228 would be good here. The CM4221 would be pretty good @ picking up channel 12 when it goes DT in 2009, but wouldn't be as good at picking up channel 10 (9-1). The 4228 would be great at 9-1, but isn't good at picking up channel 12.

I live in Maineville (ex-Adelphia) and I just noticed that I have TBS "HD" on channel 980 as well. Everything is stretched to fit a 19:9 screen so I am not sure if the games will be in HD or just stretchedThe games will be non-streched 1080i HD.

jim tressler

10-03-07, 09:53 AM

Bruhub

10-03-07, 01:52 PM

I know the cm4221 should not work well with wcpo.. but I can tell you that in my case it does.. as always your mileage will vary - bruhub - putting an antenna in the attic is hit or miss.. for me, things worked just fine for the 2 days I had them in there.. But it really is hit or miss and truly trial and error because there are so many factors that can hinder performance.

jim

Awesome thanks. I'm mainly targeting UHF and if I pick up WCPO it'll be a bonus. If I don't get any hi-vhf channels can I put a VHF antenna in the attic also and join the signals along the same coax? I've never dealt with any of this stuff before so I apologize for the newbie questions.

DrDon

10-03-07, 02:01 PM

Awesome thanks. I'm mainly targeting UHF and if I pick up WCPO it'll be a bonus. If I don't get any hi-vhf channels can I put a VHF antenna in the attic also and join the signals along the same coax? I've never dealt with any of this stuff before so I apologize for the newbie questions.You CAN, but you run the risk of creating a multipath issue. Even though the VHF antenna is cut for those frequencies and the UHF is cut for those, they each will pick up some signal from the other band, creating a ghosting issue. Which, with digital, might result in suddenly getting nothing at all. If you place the VHF and UHF antennas in the same location, this won't be a problem, since the signal arrives at both at exactly the same time.

I haven't read back, so I don't know how far you are from WCPO, but if it's not too far, you should be good.

If you simply must have antennas in two separate locations - and combining them doesn't work - consider using an A/B switch.

Doc

Nitewatchman

10-03-07, 02:29 PM

Use a VHF/UHF joiner such as CM0549 to combine seperate VHF and UHF antennas onto same coax run.

Using a CM0549 or other VHF/UHF joiner, only VHF signals are passed from VHF antenna and only UHF signals are passed from UHF antenna so there is no phasing issue regardless of where the antennas are placed/etc .... the signals aren't "mixed" toghether from both antennas like they would be with a 2 way splitter used backwards ....

I provided more details in my last post on this thread, here including links to where you can get a relatively small VHF-HI antenna and CM0549, as well as some thoughts regarding best options for receiving both Dayton+Cincinnati stations from Monroe as he said he is wanting to do :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11790506#post11790506

Splicer010

10-04-07, 01:44 PM

WSTR-DT TWC Amelia off air @ 1:45PM...

Nitewatchman

10-04-07, 01:48 PM

WSTR-DT Off air OTA this morning/afternoon as well ....

update: WSTR-DT back up at 2:45pm ...

Splicer010

10-04-07, 02:45 PM

Just saw that...:)

WhoDeyFan

10-05-07, 09:50 AM

Dish Network’s TPA installers came and installed an OTA this week. I have the VIP722 HD DVR thru Dish Network. I went home set up the local channels and all I am getting is Channel 9. I pulled up a map on where the thing should be pointing and I am thinking that if I get Nine I should be getting all the other channels.
I live in Latonia KY. At the most I am 10 miles from any of the major towers. Should I request that they come back out and try to get a better signal? (The wife was home when they installed it. The installer said wait 45 minutes and everything will be working ok.) I live on a hill with a clear view to the sky.
Any thoughts?

jim tressler

10-05-07, 09:57 AM

what kind of antenna was installed? If you are only getting WCPO - then it could be vhf only - you need a vhf / uhf antenna. Also, check your dish dvr settings - I am not familiar with its set up, so the other channels may not be programmed. Can you look at a signal meter on the receiver to see if the signal comes and goes on the other ota channels, or is there just 0 signal?? Lots of questions to answer before you call them back..

jim

WhoDeyFan

10-05-07, 10:15 AM

I just called the installers. They installed an amplified GS 2200 which carries both UHF and VHF receptions. The installer helpline said I was only the 2nd person to have one installed and they have no guarantees that it will pick up a signal.

On the receiver there is an option to scan for local channels. When I run this scan I am only getting Channel 9. It then puts 3 Channel 9's in my program guide. I tried doing a manual add, but there are no other signals available.

Bill R (# 2)

10-05-07, 10:28 AM

I just called the installers. They installed an amplified GS 2200 which carries both UHF and VHF receptions.

On the receiver there is an option to scan for local channels. When I run this scan I am only getting Channel 9.

If the amplifier has a gain adjustment turn it down (or off if it has an off position). Having too much gain is just as bad as having not enough.

You may want to hook the antenna up to a TV or VCR with an analog (NTSC) tuner and see what you get. If you see a lot of ghosting on the analog channels multi-path is likely a problem and the antenna may need to be re-aimed. Multi-path causes ghosting on analog channel but it can completely cancel the signal on digital channels.

WhoDeyFan

10-05-07, 10:32 AM

AS a newb, any idea on where the amplifier would be?

Splicer010

10-05-07, 10:46 AM

AS a newb, any idea on where the amplifier would be?

• Model GS-2200 is an amplified antenna recommended for viewing areas 10 to 55 miles from television signal transmitter.
• Features a built-in modulator amplifier with a gain of 12 dB average
• Includes a power supply
• Includes hardware and easy-to-install mast clamp assembly

It is built into the antenna and is non adjustable...Will probably just need to be re-aimed but then you will probably lose ch9...

jim tressler

10-05-07, 11:26 AM

the gs-2200 is a sensar - i use the unamplified version and from 22 miles away it works like a champ.. Being in Latonia you are less than 10 miles.. so I think the amp is the problem.

I don't know why you cant receive 12 as it is in line with 9 as far as antenna locations.. i could see if you could 9 and 12 but not 5 and 19.. the amp may be blowing out your receiver.. see if you can remove the ac power to the amp and see if that works

jim tressler

10-05-07, 11:28 AM

http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/GS-1100.pdf

here is the spec sheet.. looks like the amp is not in the antenna itself but rather down in the chain.. you would need to find where they installed the amp and go from there. I am not sure if you can just unplug it from power or if you need to disconnect it from the amp too.. looks like a little trial and error is in order.. good luck!

Splicer010

10-05-07, 11:31 AM

chrisirmo

10-05-07, 01:21 PM

jim tressler

10-05-07, 01:28 PM

so if he removes the power supply, then the amp should be rendered useless and the antenna becomes the non powered version... in theory at least!

The amp is built into the antenna...the in/out box you see in the specs is a power supply, nothing else...

jim tressler

10-05-07, 01:29 PM

Competition.. Directv and Dish have forced everyone to up the ante.. In this case its a good thing

TWC has added HGTV HD and Food HD. They add one HD channel in 2 years and then add three in one week. Who'd a thunk?

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/tv/2007/10/time-warner-adds-hgtv-hd-and-food-hd.asp

Splicer010

10-05-07, 01:36 PM

so if he removes the power supply, then the amp should be rendered useless and the antenna becomes the non powered version... in theory at least!

In theory...yes. But in reality...no.

With no power going to the antenna the signal is stopped at the input of the amp and therefore has no output rendering the antenna useless without the power supply.

Nitewatchman

10-05-07, 01:37 PM

Regarding WhoDeyFan's problem, A few thoughts in case they are of some help :

#1). I dunno about the sensar, but in most cases, The amp *must* be powered properly otherwise the unpowered circuitry in the amplifier will *greatly* attenuate signals, much, much more so than if a non-amplified antenna were used. We've seen problems like this occur before when sat installers who are generally "unfamiliar" with what is necessary for a proper OTA antenna install are involved. While this isn't a "VHF vs UHF" thing, it is not uncommon for "enough" signal from a VHF station to "still be strong enough" when this sort of thing occurs, while UHF signals aren't strong enough ... *if* is the issue, it may very well be the case that VHF stations may be the only ones you "see" ...

a). When sat+OTA signals are diplexed onto same coax run, Some amplifiers can be powered by DC current supplied via coax by sat receiver, which is also often used to power LNB. BUT, In this case, it's necessary to use a combining diplexor with DC pass on its VHF/UHF port as well as necessary the amplifier in the antenna will work with the DC current supplied by the sat receiver(I can't remember the polarity, either -12 or +12VDC) - I don't know if that is the case with the amp in the sensar or not, as for example some winegard amps use AC, not DC. Specs which should be available on "stickers" on the GS-2200's power supply should tell you if it's AC or DC and how much ...

a1). if you are diplexing and do *not* have DC pass on VHF/UHF port of combining diplexor/are not powering the amplifier in antenna from the sat receiver, the power supply for amp must go between the combining diplexor+antenna ... Note - this usually is not acceptable, as the power supply can not be located outdoors(in the weather/etc).

b). Whether you are Diplexing or if using a seperate "dedicated" Coax run from receiver to antenna for OTA --- You can't have ANYTHING in line in the coax between the amplifier's power supply(or the sat receiver if it's supplying the power) and the amplifier which will *block* the current being supplied by the power supply. A "standard", typcial two way splitter, for instance, will block the power.

Note: If they are diplexing properly/using the sat receiver to power the amp, the sensar's power supply wouldn't be used except in the specific circumstances noted in "a1" above.

---------------------------------------------

#2). Another possibility, VHF station(s) only show up when UHF don't if only "cable" frequencies/channels are being scanned by receiver -- If the "antenna" RF input will also work for "cable" (such as for analog cable tuning) on this receiver, then there may be a "antenna"/ "cable" option in the user menu somewhere, which needs to be set to scan "over the air" frequencies rather than "cable" frequencies.

Nitewatchman

10-05-07, 01:47 PM

In theory...yes. But in reality...no.

With no power going to the antenna the signal is stopped at the input of the amp and therefore has no output rendering the antenna useless without the power supply.

Pretty much ... but, It doesn't really "stop" it completely, it just attenuates the signals greatly(by 40~60db or more) when the signal reaches the unpowered transistors/etc in the amp ....

The unamplified version of the antenna wouldn't have a amplifier in it at all ....

Suppose It's possible the amplified version could "switch in/out" the amplifier circuitry(if so that would probably be done manually with a switch on the antenna), but I doubt that's the case, doesn't seem to say anything like that in the specs ....

More thoughts concerning Whodeyfans's problem in last post ...

Bill R (# 2)

10-05-07, 01:49 PM

so if he removes the power supply, then the amp should be rendered useless and the antenna becomes the non powered version... in theory at least!

In theory yes, in reality it depends on the design. I have seen some that won't work at all unless they are plugged in. There are very few that I have seen that do not have a gain adjustment of some sort (usually located on the power inserter module). Sometimes it is just a switch and other times it is a 0 - 12 (or whatever the gain is) adjustment.

Splicer010

10-05-07, 01:54 PM

it just attenuates the signals greatly(by 40~60db or more)Which basically means it is stopped because at that attenuation level, nothing useable will be left...;)

Bill R (# 2)

10-05-07, 02:00 PM

Dish Network’s TPA installers came and installed an OTA this week. I have the VIP722 HD DVR thru Dish Network.

I live in Latonia KY. At the most I am 10 miles from any of the major towers.

I have the same setup you have. The 722 has a very good ATSC tuner and seems to handle multi-path very well. It could be that you are overloading it. Have you tried using the attunator that comes with the 722 to reduce your OTA signal strength?

Nitewatchman

10-05-07, 02:13 PM

Which basically means it is stopped because at that attenuation level, nothing useable will be left...;)

Again, pretty much ..... But, something useable *can* be left, just probably not enough in most cases ....Hence the possibility of why he may be getting WCPO-DT (on VHF, where there will be less insertion losses, particularly between antenna+receiver in feedline/any diplexors/splitters/etc) and nothing else ....

In strong signal areas, it's fairly typical to have 40~60db or more "signal than you need" for digitial reception(the analogs may be quite "snowy" however with 40~60db added attenuation) from an outdoor antenna setup ...

Splicer010

10-05-07, 02:20 PM

WSTR-DT is down again on TWC AMelia headend...Also UHD is down. 2:20PM.

nightowl2k2

10-05-07, 08:23 PM

TWC has added HGTV HD and Food HD. They add one HD channel in 2 years and then add three in one week. Who'd a thunk?

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/tv/2007/10/time-warner-adds-hgtv-hd-and-food-hd.asp

Can you actually tune in the channels? I see them in my guide but it says "Not Authorized" when I try and watch the channels. I am hoping that they just have not released the channels yet and that I will have them without having to pay extra.

The channels are 981 and 982 btw.

Splicer010

10-05-07, 08:34 PM

You have to have the HD tier...the same one that DiscoveryHD & ESPNHD are on...

ansarar

10-05-07, 08:38 PM

Looks like Dish Network has just added TBS HD, might have been today. Amen for that because now I can watch the ALDS, NLDS, NLCS in HD. This standard def sports stuff is for the birds.

To the guy having Antenna problems, Terk HDTVa is down to 33 bucks on Amazon and works like a charm, even better when the amp is on.

jdhughes63

10-05-07, 10:19 PM

You have to have the HD tier...the same one that DiscoveryHD & ESPNHD are on...

If you are receiving TNT HD, Discover HD, 905, 909, & 912 you should be getting it. It is not supposed to be on the higher HD tier.
Try a reboot by holding in the on button until it reboots. If no luck call TW.

Bubster

10-06-07, 01:31 PM

Wow, which channel is the ultimate suck?
1) WSTR-HD
2) Food-HD
3) HGTV-HD
4) All of the above!

On the bright side, this* shows that TWC realizes they are losing out to the satellite competition.

*this being the fact they add useless HD channels.

Bubster

10-06-07, 01:34 PM

If you are receiving TNT HD, Discover HD, 905, 909, & 912 you should be getting it. It is not supposed to be on the higher HD tier.

What is this higher HD tier you speak of?

slimm

10-06-07, 01:48 PM

jdhughes63

10-06-07, 02:23 PM

What is this higher HD tier you speak of?

Higher tier is MOJO. Universal, HD Net, HDNet Movies and at one time included ESPN. I think it dropped down one tier

tbenson81

10-06-07, 04:05 PM

Wow - this Penn State game on WCPO could be the worst quality picture I have ever seen in my life!

Im glad ESPN2 HD is blacked out for us so we can watch this game in crappy SD on WCPO!

PS - Can someone give me an update on the Georgia - Tennessee game?

I am wathcing Western Michigan and Ball St in the 4th on WKRC........58 - 30.

Another great weekend of college football in Cincinnati!

Tony

Bubster

10-06-07, 10:06 PM

Higher tier is MOJO. Universal, HD Net, HDNet Movies and at one time included ESPN. I think it dropped down one tier

It appears to me there are 2 tiers with the lower one being the free OTA local HD channels and all the other ones in the "pay for" tier. At least I cant get any channels besides the locals on my crappy LG QAM tuner.

Do local channels even qualify as a "tier"?

Splicer010

10-07-07, 01:31 AM

I thought I read a post a few pages back (but can't find it) that ch45 (FOX, Dayton) @ 4 PM was showing the Colts game...Am I imagining this? Just want to know so I can plan accordingly...

Also the way the Browns have been playing I think the Browns/Pats game should be pretty good!!!

Then Bears/GB will be awesome as 'Da Bears' are due I think! GO BEARS!!!

The Bengals however, with the screwed up team best be using this Bye to get their act together because they need to have a serious winning streak starting next week...

jimp2244

10-07-07, 08:44 AM

I thought I read a post a few pages back (but can't find it) that ch45 (FOX, Dayton) @ 4 PM was showing the Colts game...Am I imagining this? Just want to know so I can plan accordingly...You are correct. WRGT FOX 45 Dayton is showing the Colts. See this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11788842#post11788842) post.

parishd

10-07-07, 10:38 AM

I've tried using the 3 codes listed for Pioneer in the remote manual- 111. 144, and 383 to set up the remote for the TV. None of these turn off the TV as indicated in the manual. Can anyone provide me with the control code.

Also, I read months ago about a sound problem with SA8300HD i.e. intermittent drop outs on HD channel. I can fix by changing to an SD channel and back but was hoping there is a more recent and better solution. Any input on this would also be appreciated.

Thanks

jdhughes63

10-07-07, 11:03 AM

It appears to me there are 2 tiers with the lower one being the free OTA local HD channels and all the other ones in the "pay for" tier. At least I cant get any channels besides the locals on my crappy LG QAM tuner.

Do local channels even qualify as a "tier"?

My latest info from TW shows:
1. HD Basic (all the local HDs including 964)
requires HD TV and an HD receiver
2. HD Standard (TNTHD, DIscoveryHD, ESPNHD & ESPN2HD)
requires all above plus HD standard service
3.HD premium ( MOJO, UniversalHD, HDNET & HDNET Movies)
requires all above plus subscription to the HD premium service.
I misunderstod your questiion, If you have TW HD service you get tier 1 & 2 included. However if you are OTA you will only get tier1. I hope this helps.

Splicer010

10-07-07, 11:25 AM

Yes you are correct. However #1 one needs a QAM tuner as it really isn't OTA. OTA one needs an ATSC tuner. In order to get #2 & #3, you MUST have TW box...

Jimp...Thanks for clarifying!:D

jdhughes63

10-07-07, 04:40 PM

Interesting. I just turned on WKRC and the CBS game was in SD. I decided to try Dayton 7.1 and there it was in HD

jkeane

10-07-07, 05:03 PM

Interesting. I just turned on WKRC and the CBS game was in SD. I decided to try Dayton 7.1 and there it was in HD

Just as the game started the screen went black and there was a message saying "loss of input signal". They switched to SD after about 30 seconds or so.

Splicer010

10-07-07, 05:48 PM

Interesting indeed...I watched from maybe 5 minutes in (I was in the shower @ kickoff) to finish in HD on ch12...

What ticks me off is try as I might I cannot get WRGT (Dayton FOX 45) to come in OTA for the life of me...I even hit the roof and tryed changing antenna directions...I still get every other channel (including WCPO) just nothing from Dayton on UHF (22 or 45)...:confused: So I am stuck watching the Colts on NTSC SD...:(

Nitewatchman

10-07-07, 06:57 PM

Splicer010,

ALL Dayton Digital Stations transmit on UHF. I suspect You're thinking about the virtual (remapped) channel numbers rather than the channels where the RF signals actually are.

The virtual channel numbers you are used to seeing "on screen" OTA, are sent via PSIP VCT (virtual channel table) as part of the stations signal. Analog+digital stations can't actually "share" the same channel/frequency in the same area, they would interfere with each other.

For Dayton :

WDTN-DT transmits on UHF channel 50, remaps to virtual channel 2.x.
WHIO-DT transmits on UHF channel 41, remaps to virtual channel 7.x.
WPTD-DT transmits on UHF channel 58, remaps to virtual channel 16.x
WKEF-DT transmits on UHF channe 51, remaps to virtual channel 22.1
WBDT-DT transmits on UHF channe 18, remaps to virtual channel 26.1
WRGT-DT transmits on UHF channel 30, remaps to virtual channel 45.x

The "actual" channels the Cincinnati digital stations broadcast on(and where they will be after analog shut off) -- are shown in first page of this thread.

You can't get the channel remapping info OTA until a signal very near what is required for DTV reception is acheived, so for example you'll Never see an "indication" of signal from a OTA receiver on "channel 45" for WRGT-DT (DT=digital) until *after* the receiver has "found" the signal at a "sufficent strength/quality" on channel 30 .... note: Some Sat+OTA receivers use the EPG info from the satellite for the channel remapping info and therefore can "get around" this problem ....

If your receiver allows you to do this(some will only allow you to "autoscan" for channels, some will allow you to scan in a single RF or "physical" channel # while looking at the meter) :

You may want to try tuning to channel 30 (for WRGT-DT), and while looking at your receiver's "signal meter", adjust antenna while looking at meter until a signal sufficent enough to raise the signal quality meter readings high enough that you can achieve a signal lock and receive the channel remapping info -- (after which point you'll probably see it on "channel 45.x"), which again is pretty much what you need to achieve reception(decode video/audio) of the station as well ....

WRGT-DT FCC info here (see it says channel 30, honestly I'm not just making this stuff up ... Note the "construction permit" entry should be the current valid entry as they filed a license to cover that Construction permit some time ago) - Click on the "41dbu service contour map" link to see a rough estimation of their coverage area ....

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=WRGT&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

As for your chances of reception of them, I think you should have a good shot at it from Amelia, especially if The Dayton UHF analogs(16,22,26,45) come in pretty well(even if they are a little weak/snowy) ...

There is however a Potential first adjacent channel/receiver selectivity issues involving WRGT-DT and 2 Cincinnati stations currently :

Difficult to say if it's enough of an issue to be a problem from Ameila area (if the Difference in signal level at receive site between WXIX-DT+WRGT-DT is greater than say, ~36db or so, then it's especially more likely to be an issue) :

Given that WXIX-DT 29 (remaps to 19.x) and WKRC-DT 31(remaps to 12.x) Cincinnati are currently both on 1st adjacent channels to WRGT-DT 30, an antenna with good directivity is probably a good idea from Amelia area, along with using different antenna "aimings" for WXIX and WRGT ...

Also notice WRGT-DT has some nulls in it's pattern to the South, it's not as signifcant a null in their pattern as WBDT-DT has to the south, but it still might be a bit of an issue for you .... For instance at 180 degree bearing from it's tower, a relative field value of .362 for their transmit antenna pattern is shown ... to figure ERP(effective radiated power) from relative field values shown on FCC site for Your direction from Tower :

Relative field value squared x Max ERP = ERP squirted in your direction ...

In this case, 180 degrees south of WRGT tower :

(.362 x .362) x 425,000(watts) = 55,623 watts (55.6KW ERP) .... -- which is about 3x (about 10db or so) less than they send on their "main lobe" towards Springfield, Ohio ...

Hope some of that is of some use to you, good luck ...

-------------------------------------------------------------

All,

Noticed what I thought was an Interesting difference in this Sunday's PBS "war" repeats from 2 area stations .... note I Just looked at those real quick a couple of times, as I was watching HD football or HD NASCAR ....

WCET-DT - upconverted SD, but with pillar bars/letterboxing removed = I'm not sure what the exact resolution would be, but given letterboxing are part of the "lines of vertical resolution" in a 480i 4x3 SD signals, I expect it is something around 300 Lines or so of vertical resolution .... This is probably the first time I've seen a local station do something like this -- It's better than Pillarbars+letterboxing, but I'd definitely prefer HD or even a "full height" 480i 16x9 feed("anamorphic" so to speak) ...

WPTD-DT - When I checked it at 5:40pm, It appeared to be HD feed on 16.6 (or possibly "full height" Widescreen SD, I think it was HD though), with THREE other SD services running 16.2, 16.3+16.5, 16.5 dropped at 6pm .... It is unusual to see them running HD before 6pm(or for 16.4 to be inactive) but, since for the most part the material is not all that "bandwidth demanding"(still photos/etc), it didn't look too bad at 5:40pm when I saw it .....

mlbUC

10-07-07, 08:32 PM

Amazing! No complaints about college football coverage this weekend!

jimp2244

10-07-07, 09:29 PM

Amazing! No complaints about college football coverage this weekend!Almost true, but look harder... 10/6 around 4:05pm. That is unless you've found the "ignore" feature ;)

mlbUC

10-07-07, 09:45 PM

Heh... my bad. I had page 277 bookmarked and hadn't noticed they move to page 278.

WhoDeyFan

10-08-07, 09:01 AM

Over the weekend I unplugged the antenna from the VIP 722 and plugged the antenna line directly into the TV. I am now able to get all the HD channels I was not able to get, but now I am unable to get channel 9. Figure that one out. Weird stuff. I still have the power supply plugged in as well.

My main goal would be for me to be able to get the locals in HD and have them run thru the VIP 722 so I can record via the DVR. The installers were no help. There has to be a way if I can catch them via OTA going straight to the TV. Is there a way to adjust the VIP to help me catch them?

Thanks for all the help. I am a newb to this whole thing.

Bill R (# 2)

10-08-07, 10:13 AM

My main goal would be for me to be able to get the locals in HD and have them run thru the VIP 722 so I can record via the DVR. The installers were no help. There has to be a way if I can catch them via OTA going straight to the TV. Is there a way to adjust the VIP to help me catch them?

Thanks for all the help. I am a newb to this whole thing.

You may have missed my post but I mentioned that the signal may be two strong for your 722. I use a splitter on the output of my antenna and connect it to the TV and my 722 and get the same channels on my TV's ATSC tuner as I do on my 722's ATSC tuner. If a splitter doesn't help use the attenator that came with your 722 to lower the signal even more.

And you problem with WCPO is likely your antenna. I get a signal of 97 on WCPO via my 722 OTA tuner and I am a little south of you.

WhoDeyFan

10-08-07, 10:23 AM

Thanks Bill. I may have a splitter where I can do this. I will see if that works. I am not sure how to adjust the attenuator though.

Bubster

10-08-07, 01:08 PM

Heh... my bad. I had page 277 bookmarked and hadn't noticed they move to page 278.

Use this as your bookmark and it will always go to the newest unread post:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=306883&goto=newpost

Assuming you let cookies keep track...

Bubster

10-08-07, 01:10 PM

Interesting tidbit: I cannot get my SAHD8300 to save TBS-HD as a favorite station. It always is missing when I turn the DVR off then on again.

Perhaps this is TWC's way of telling me to not bother since they will ditch it after the MLB playoff coverage?

Splicer010

10-08-07, 01:42 PM

Or maybe you have filled the favorite station memory and you have to delete one and then try again?

tim99

10-08-07, 01:57 PM

During the national coverage of the UF/LSU game WKRC tacked on a string of local commercials in addition to the slot alloted and were at LEAST 30-60 seconds late getting back to the game and missed an entire play. Then returned to coverage and within seconds jumped to another commercial for a few seconds then back to game.

Amazing! No complaints about college football coverage this weekend!

WhoDeyFan

10-08-07, 02:00 PM

I noticed during the SEA VS Pitt game that after the 2 min warning before halftime the game went to non-HD. It could have been my antenna, but as soon as the halftime show went on it went back to normal HD.

Nitewatchman

10-08-07, 04:05 PM

Over the weekend I unplugged the antenna from the VIP 722 and plugged the antenna line directly into the TV. I am now able to get all the HD channels I was not able to get, but now I am unable to get channel 9. Figure that one out.

What do the Cincinnati analog stations look like ? ("analog" ch5,9,12,19,25,36,38,48,54,64) -- Is there much "snow", "ghosts" or any signs of interference(such as wavy diagonal lines or any sort of "junk" so to speak), and if so on which channels?

Given you're on a hill in what I believe should be a strong signal area, if antenna is installed, aimed+connected properly(unless "overload" is a problem, then you'll probably see "interference"/junk on some channels, or will see some stations showing up in an "ugly" fashion on channels where they aren't supposed to be/aren't transmitting), The Cincinnati analog stations OTA should all pretty much be "clear as a bell", but perhaps with some ghosting on some channels, and perhaps a little "snowy" on the analog LP stations(25,36,38, probably 36 especially) would probably be "OK" ...

You may have missed my post but I mentioned that the signal may be two strong for your 722.

With WCVN potentially as close as 2 miles or so from "northern" portions of Latonia and in generally same direction(North) as the other Cincinnati stations, Using an amplified antenna is probably not a good idea in this case --- I'm not sure where WNKU-FM transmitter is, but that's another potential problem,especially if there isn't a FM trap engaged on the amp in the Sensar .....

And I agree that it's possible in this case the amp could be overloading+causing problems, and/or probably more likely, causing the front-end of receiver to overload and cause even more problems ....

But, we still don't know yet whether or not the amplifier in the antenna is being properly powered or not -- and in the case of this specific antenna model if it's not powered if it *GREATLY* attenuates the signals as is usually the case with amplifiers. If not, I think there's a good chance that's his main problem ....

And you problem with WCPO is likely your antenna.

The Winegard Sensar he has should probably offer better performance on VHF (especially 7-13) than on UHF ....

Bubster

10-09-07, 11:45 AM

Or maybe you have filled the favorite station memory and you have to delete one and then try again?
Hell, I didn't know there was a limit? What is the limit? And, I bet it's not that because I HATE most television! Plus I got rid of the premium movie channels recently and ditched them as favs.

Splicer010

10-09-07, 11:52 AM

Hell, I didn't know there was a limit? What is the limit? And, I bet it's not that because I HATE most television! Plus I got rid of the premium movie channels recently and ditched them as favs.

It was just a thought. I know my Toshiba I only have like 30 channels I can designate as favorites so I thought that may be your case. Was worth a shot...you are no worse off than before...;)

jkeane

10-09-07, 11:53 AM

Hell, I didn't know there was a limit? What is the limit? And, I bet it's not that because I HATE most television! Plus I got rid of the premium movie channels recently and ditched them as favs.

I've had the exact same problem with the first wave of new stations that were added...WSTR-HD & ESPNU-HD. No problem so far with keeping TBS, Food and HGTV in the favorites. I don't think it's a case of hitting a limit...I have 2 HD DVR's and am experiencing the same problem on both even though I have a different number of favs on each. I emailed TWC and they suggested rebooting, which I did but no fix.

CincySaint

10-09-07, 12:18 PM

Yea I've experienced it too. ESPN2HD and ESPNU have not "held" as favorites. After I did it two or three times, now they've stuck. So I guess we will all have to do that for Food and HGTV, too.

jimp2244

10-10-07, 08:39 AM

We will get a total of 6 NFL games this week, all in HD. OTA-only viewers will get 5 games (will get "bonus" game on WRGT 45 Dayton). Cable-only viewers will get 5 games (will get MNF game). CBS has the double-header this week.

Sunday Day Games:

1pm FOX (45 WRGT) Washington at Green Bay*
Kenny Albert, Troy Aikman

1pm CBS (12 WKRC, 7 WHIO) Cincinnati at Kansas City
Kevin Harlan, Rich Gannon

4pm FOX (19 WXIX) Carolina at Arizona
Ron Pitts, Tony Boselli

4pm CBS (12 WKRC, 7 WHIO) New England at Dallas
Jim Nantz, Phil Simms

Sunday Night Football:

8:15pm NBC (5 WLWT, 2 WDTN) – New Orleans at Seattle
Al Michaels, John Madden, Andrea Kramer

Monday Night Football:

8:30pm ESPN – NY Giants at Atlanta+
Mike Tirico, Ron Jaworski, Tony Kornheiser, Michele Tafoya, Suzy Kolber

*Bonus game for OTA viewers
+Cable Only

8ProgRock8

10-10-07, 05:56 PM

Both yesterday and today I don't have reception of WCET 48-1 and 48-2. All other local Digital Channels are coming through fine. This had happened a couple days earlier, but they returned the following day (earlier the same day it had happened but they returned after I changed the station to another and then back again).

I'm trying to figure out whether it's WCET or my new TV (Toshiba 65HM167).

Can a tuner fail at one frequency?

Initially I guessed that WCET was having growing pains but now I'm not sure.

Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks in advance.

jdhughes63

10-10-07, 06:49 PM

Both yesterday and today I don't have reception of WCET 48-1 and 48-2. All other local Digital Channels are coming through fine. This had happened a couple days earlier, but they returned the following day (earlier the same day it had happened but they returned after I changed the station to another and then back again).
I'm trying to figure out whether it's WCET or my new TV (Toshiba 65HM167).
Can a tuner fail at one frequency?
Initially I guessed that WCET was having growing pains but now I'm not sure.

Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks in advance.
I am getting WCET right now on TW-948. Are you OTC. If it is a weak signal it will go completely black as if there is no signal at all. There is no in between with digital signals.

8ProgRock8

10-10-07, 07:37 PM

I am getting WCET right now on TW-948. Are you OTC. If it is a weak signal it will go completely black as if there is no signal at all. There is no in between with digital signals.

You lost me with the "TW-948" & "OTC" bits. Thanks for your input.

Here's an update:

I decided that there maybe some sort of frequency drift either in the TV's tuner or the stations transmitter, though the former is more likely. So I decided to do another channel auto program and they came back. I guess there was some sort of drift in expected frequency versus actual received frequency for those two stations.

Is this a known problem with the QAM tuners (just Toshiba's) or could it be a defective tuner issue?

Thanks

jimp2244

10-10-07, 10:44 PM

You lost me with the "TW-948" & "OTC" bits. Thanks for your input.

Here's an update:

I decided that there maybe some sort of frequency drift either in the TV's tuner or the stations transmitter, though the former is more likely. So I decided to do another channel auto program and they came back. I guess there was some sort of drift in expected frequency versus actual received frequency for those two stations.

Is this a known problem with the QAM tuners (just Toshiba's) or could it be a defective tuner issue?

Thanks

You said QAM tuner... that would imply you are using cable, is that correct? (ATSC tuner is used for OTA antennas). I think jdhughes had a typo and meant OTA (Over the Air), meaning using an antenna. If you are using cable perhaps Time Warner changed the QAM frequency that WCET-DT was on. I don't have cable but I understand they do this from time to time. If you are using an antenna, the frequency would not change (much bigger deal for a broadcast station to apply for and get approved to change the channel they broadcast on OTA).

8ProgRock8

10-11-07, 12:56 AM

You said QAM tuner... that would imply you are using cable, is that correct? (ATSC tuner is used for OTA antennas). I think jdhughes had a typo and meant OTA (Over the Air), meaning using an antenna. If you are using cable perhaps Time Warner changed the QAM frequency that WCET-DT was on. I don't have cable but I understand they do this from time to time. If you are using an antenna, the frequency would not change (much bigger deal for a broadcast station to apply for and get approved to change the channel they broadcast on OTA).

I meant ATSC.

If you reread my message you'll note that I said "frequency drift either in the TV's tuner or the stations transmitter, though the former is more likely."

Obviously I was referring to minute differences in carrier. Of course it's more likely that it was a high level static multipath situation. Or maybe interference due to a high Alpha Index. Not to mention nothing is exact, there are tolerances built into everything.

Thanks for correcting me and jdhuges63, but what I was looking for was help with my problem, You know, the case of the disappearing digital stations.

Splicer010

10-11-07, 07:33 AM

Yes it is possible that your tuner just needed to be rescanned as this occassionally happens...Usually the cause is the actual reception from the antenna as many things can and do interfere with the actual broadcast signal...Such as leaves, the wind moving branches etc...

jimp2244

10-11-07, 08:08 AM

I meant ATSC.Thanks, now we know you're not talking about cable.

If you reread my message you'll note that I said "frequency drift either in the TV's tuner or the stations transmitter, though the former is more likely." Noted that the first time I read it.

Obviously I was referring to minute differences in carrier. Of course it's more likely that it was a high level static multipath situation. Or maybe interference due to a high Alpha Index. Not to mention nothing is exact, there are tolerances built into everything.Since it's now clear you're using OTA, there are a number of things that could have caused your issue. You might be receiving WCET-DT just over the signal to noise ratio required for DTV reception. If that's the case, any small change in the environment could affect your reception, and if it dips below the required threshold, you'll lose reception. Hard to say why a rescan would fix that issue, but if it happens again it would be interesting to see if the rescan fixes it again.

Another possibility is that WCET changed something in their data stream such as PSIP data. Different tuners handle this differently -- some may require a rescan while others may update this "on the fly" whenever you tune to the channel. Both of my Samsung tuners do this on the fly (I can see this evidenced when subchannels "show up" or "go away" without a rescan) but my ATI HDTV Wonder and Hauppauge HVR-950 (PC tuner card and USB stick) both require rescans to show any changes.

I guess it's possible that there's something "wrong" with your tuner, but I would think more likely it would be one of the reasons above, or the way your tuner "deals with" certain situations when they are presented to it.

Thanks for correcting me and jdhuges63, but what I was looking for was help with my problem, You know, the case of the disappearing digital stations.I thought I was trying to help...

8ProgRock8

10-11-07, 01:37 PM

Sorry about the misunderstanding. I believed OTA to be self evident with my usage of "48-1" & "48-2." I guess some just don't realize this as being the method local channels use in designating their digital stations. Haven't seen a cable system yet that uses a dash, of course anythings possible. ;)

Forgot to mention that when this happened the second time (two days of continuous outage I'd mentioned) my signal strength meter icon showed full strength, however the screen was black. After deciding to rescan, signal strength was unchanged while video and audio returned.

I have issues with the current frequency scanning method when combined with directional antennas mounted on rotators. There should be an option to "Lock-In" stations located on previous scans thus allowing subsequent scans to only locate stations at different cardinal positions.

The current "rescan ignoring all previous data" is self defeating.

It would be nice if "ALL" electronics had a data port incorporated allowing firmware upgrades, especially with new emerging technologies where standards were being scrutinized.

Anyway, at this point I'm thinking PSIP generator.

Thanks to all that have taken their time to honestly help me. I always appreciate and respect honest people attempting to help unselfishly.

Again Thanks,

Joe

Nitewatchman

10-11-07, 03:44 PM

"48.1 or 48.2" (or 48-1/48-2) could be either via OTA or via cable.

QAM (Quadrature amplitude modulation ) is signal modulation used by digital cable, 8VSB (Trellis-coded 8-level vestigal sideband) is signal modulation used for digital OTA in U.S -- ATSC is a open "collection" of standards of sorts, but 8VSB is the signal modulation standard used with ATSC OTA digital TV ....

In WCET-DT's case 48.1/48.2 are merely "virtual channels", which is information sent via PSIP (http://www.psip.org/) (program system information protocol -- which is ATSC standard A/65) Virtual channel table(VCT).

In this case from WCET-DT's VCT, "48" is the major channel #, the ".1 or .2" is minor channel #. This PSIP info is sent by WCET OTA within their ATSC compliant MPEG2 transport stream, but also is often sent by cableco's as well. Thus Cable viewers can receive WCET-DT with user supplied equipment which will demodulate "in the clear" QAM signals via cable(mostly local broadcast signals carried by cable), and depending upon their equipment, they may see WCET-DT show up on 48.x just as digital OTA viewers do. OTOH, most cableco's use "different" channel #'s for these services via STB's supplied by the cableco (such as 948 for WCET-DT's HD service via TW Cincinnati) .....

Via OTA, The VCT info can't be decoded until a signal lock is acheived.

FCC requires digital stations VCT major channel # to be the same # as their analog channel #, and also requires if a channel # is used with station ID, it be the "virtual channel number" - Oddly enough, This requirement doesn't change after analog shut off occurs. FCC also requires all digital broadcast stations to comply with A65/B PSIP standard currently -- This includes many other things besides "channel remapping", such as sending such things as correct time/date info via PSIP STT, and EPG info via PSIP EIT's out 12 hours.

PSIP "virtual channel remapping" is *supposed* to make things less confusing for viewers who are "used to", for example, tuning to channel 48 (analog) to receive WCET ... It also is a means to allow stations to continue to use their existing analog channel branding for their digital stations - regardless of what channel they actually broadcast on, including after analog shut off.

But, IMO, it can also make things *more* confusing, as again, the VCT info is sent by each individual station, and can't be decoded/used from "each station" until a signal lock is achieved on each desired station's signal -- also, in most cases the virtual channel #'s are different than the actual channel of transmission(which corresponds directly to a 6MHZ wide "frequency" via a long used "table of channels" of sorts), which could be, for example, a UHF channel even though a VHF channel # may be "apparent" to the user (such as 5.x for WLWT-DT, which actually transmits on UHF channel 35) ...

WCET-DT actually transmits OTA on UHF channel 34(590-596MHZ) -- For purposes of below, I'll refer to the "actual" channel of transmission as the "physical" channel, or "RF channel" ...

I have issues with the current frequency scanning method when combined with directional antennas mounted on rotators. There should be an option to "Lock-In" stations located on previous scans thus allowing subsequent scans to only locate stations at different cardinal positions.

All of them need to provide such options, and IMO also need to provide an option to allow you to manually "tune to" or individually "scan" any single "physical channel"+display some sort of signal quality meter to allow you to adjust antenna for best results, as again, you can't decode the VCT info or "tune to" those "virtual channels" until *after* you achieve a signal lock .... Obviously, it is often the case a signal lock isn't going to occur if directional antenna is aimed in a different direction, or even in cases a settop antenna is not adjusted for "best results" for any given station's signal .... note : The "physical channel #'s" stations use can be found at antennaweb or TVfool (http://www.tvfool.com) query for receive location, from TV query (http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html) or CDBS database at FCC site, or for The cincinnati stations only in the first post of this thread .... Stations themselves these days do *not* seem to widely publicize or provide this info to the public ...

Unfortunetly, however I seem to recall some reports saying some newer receivers(especially some of the ones "built in" to some newer TV's) don't have the following capability :

But, Most receivers do allow the "option" you are referring to, or provide a similar option --- how they do it varies. For instance :

In addition to a "Full scan", Some receivers allow you to do an additional scan ("add digital channels/etc) without "removing" the previously scanned in stations received on a scan with antenna aimed in different direction.

Some receivers give you an option to scan in a single "RF channel", individually -- my Hisense DB-2010 is like this --- in WCET's case, you'd punch in channel 34 for that option and a "signal quality meter" of sorts is also present to allow you to look at meter to help you adjust antenna for best results.

Some receivers will allow you to "tune" directly to the "Physical channel+a MPEG program # (such as 34.1 for WCET's HD service)", and also a signal meter can be displayed. Some receivers which do this will "automatically" add the VCT info to it's "internal channel list" when you do that and a signal lock is acheived on the physical channel # you punched in, some won't.

Some receivers will allow you to "edit" a channel list manually/select which "physical channels" you're going to "use", with physical channels 2-69 listed, and you can select or deselect which channels are going to be available to "channel surf" -- My Zenith HDV420 is like this(and also allows "direct channel tuning" to Physical channel #/MPEG program #) then when a signal lock is acheived on any of the channels which you have "selected", you'll then see+be able to "tune to" those stations by their virtual channel #'s ...

Some receivers "update" the internal info they save on #1), station TSID's(transport stream ID - every station has one, which is sometimes necessary as for instance it's possible in some cases to receive different stations with the same VCT Major/minor channel #'s, and also possible in some cases with different antenna aimings to receive multiple stations on the same physical channel) and #2) VCT info or MPEG2 PSI info everytime you "tune" to that station, other receivers only update that info when you do a "channel scan" .... In the latter case, when a station makes "changes" to PSIP or MPEG2 PSI(program specific information) they are sending, in some cases a "channel rescan" is required in order to continue to properly decode them ....

Some receivers allow some "combination" of any of those possibilities, for instance, the internal ATSC/QAM receiver in my Sony KD34XBR960 HDTV allow "tuning" directly to a Physical channel #(+MPEG2 program number), and also has a "add digital channel scan" option to allow you to "scan in" stations with different antenna aimings .....

Unfortunetly, my experience has been It's not allways clearly written in user manuals how some of these digital OTA tuning/scanning options "work" with any given receiver model ...

I've often thought it would be a good idea if there were standards regarding these "channel tuning options" for Digital OTA receivers which manufactuers were required to adhere to, but there currently are not ....

WhoDeyFan

10-11-07, 03:53 PM

I called Dish network last night and went thru every possible trouble-shooting scenario. I even called the manufacturer of the OTA. They said that they gave me the wrong Antenna.

A Tech is going to come out on Saturday and fix it. Another 5 hours waiting around I guess. But it will all be worth it if they get it so that all the local HD channels show up on my receiver. I a definitely going to print off all the info from AntennaWeb about where to point the antenna.
thanks for all the help. I love this site!

Sea Ray

10-11-07, 04:04 PM

Why do these digital TVs need to rescan channels from time to time? I've worked with my in-laws' TV and after I installed it, the TV was beautifully receiving both analog and digital stations from their cable provider, no OTA, no STB. A little while later they mentioned that they weren't getting as many HD channels as when I left. When I checked out the set I saw that whereas before they were getting ch 4.1 and 4.2 now it showed no signal. I'd plug in 4.1 on the remote and check the signal strength and it was zero.

Then I did a rescan of all analog/digital channels and presto, 4.1 and 4.2 were back again! Why did it need a rescan in order to find those channels? What happened? The channels didn't move.

Nitewatchman

10-11-07, 05:03 PM

Why did it need a rescan in order to find those channels? What happened? The channels didn't move.

I just explained some of that in my last post, some of those things apply to cable(sometimes in a little different way) as well as OTA .... Here are a couple of possibilities via more "cable specific" explanations ....

#1). The "4.1 and 4.2" channels could be virtual channel #'s, the "actual" channel numbers (here's a handy chart - http://www.csgnetwork.com/tvfreqtable.html ) that correspond to the frequencies used on the cable system very well *might* have changed between scans .... Depending upon whether certian info is sent along with the video/audio streams, Some user supplied "QAM tuners" will use/display to the user those "virtual channel numbers", others don't and show the "actual" channel number/MPEG2 program stream # instead .... For example, some folks with "QAM tuners" using TW Cincy cable are seeing WLWT-DT on channel 105 or 84 (Channel #'s that are where TW actually *has* the signal --- and depending upon which TW cable head end they get the signals from), and some folks with "QAM tuners" which are "using" the virtual channel numbers are seeing WLWT-DT on 5.1/5.2, just as OTA viewers do ......

As another example, in Columbus area, a TW viewer of WCMH may see them on virtual channels "4.1"(NBC HD/WCMH)", and 4.2 (WCMH's WeatherPlus), but TW doesn't actually transmit their signal on channel 4 on the cable system .... It's probably actually on a Channel above channel 78 or so, and it very well may change to a different channel occasionally, even though it "appaears" to some viewers with user supplied QAM tuners that it's "still on channel 4.x" ...

#2). There is important data sent within the MPEG2 transport stream for each "channel" which allows the receiver to properly identify and decode the audio/video streams, as well as any other related information/important datastreams, such as EIA-708 digital caption --- i.e. "digital" closed captioning info ....

For various reasons, sometimes stations(or providers) change some of that info, which on some receivers requires a rescan after they made that change to "again" be able to properly decode it .... As, some receiver's only "save" that info internally when you do a "channel scan", other receivers "update" that info internally every time you "tune" to that channel ....

Nitewatchman

10-11-07, 05:19 PM

BTW, in addition to jimp2244's excellent earlier post --- another note/thing to keep in mind regarding "scanning for " WCET-DT OTA ...

AS noted in first post of this thread, WCET analog and digital typically go off air (OTA, I don't know about cable) between about 1am~6am 3 or 4 nights a week. Don't quote me on this, but I think it's usually Monday, Tue+wed night (tue, wed, thur morning) They're off air between about 1am~6am ... They might be down Sunday nights(well, Mon mornings if you want to get technical about it ) or thursday nights(er, fri mornings) as well, I don't recall exactly - I keep meaning to check+write it down when I'm up that late, but keep forgetting ....

They are the only broadcast station in the area currently that "regularly" shuts down it's OTA transmitters on a nightly basis 1/2 the nights of the week ... Other stations in area do occasionally+usually rarely go off air(usually during daytime through the week or the "wee morning hours" when fewer people are watching) as well usually for "maintenance" reasons ....

I dunno the exact reason why WCET shuts down nightly about 1/2 of the week, my best guess would probably be to save on the power bills involved with high power UHF transmitters (generally $$$$ or more per month for a high power UHF transmitter) ........

8ProgRock8

10-11-07, 05:47 PM

"48.1 or 48.2" (or 48-1/48-2) could be either via OTA or via cable.

I've never seen a cable box or a satellite receiver use Alpha Numerics in designating a channel. The standard has always been 3 digit numerics.

So you've actually seen a cable receiver utilize Alpha Numerics? Which system/manufacturer?

It's true that I haven't subscribed to cable for many years.

8ProgRock8

10-11-07, 05:58 PM

I am getting WCET right now on TW-948. Are you OTC. If it is a weak signal it will go completely black as if there is no signal at all. There is no in between with digital signals.

As shown above Time Warner utilize 948 as the channel designator, not 48-1. Come to think of it I've never seen a cable or satellite receiver have more than a 3 character display, while 48-1 requires 4 characters.

I guess I'm getting old and not keeping up with the newer hardware.

ansarar

10-11-07, 06:09 PM

I'm watching TBS HD on DishNetwork and noticing that shows like Seinfeld and Friends are 16x9 but they don't necessarily look like HD quality to me. Are they doing some stretching of a 4:3 picture to make me think it's in HD? :)

Nitewatchman

10-11-07, 06:34 PM

I've never seen a cable box or a satellite receiver use Alpha Numerics in designating a channel. The standard has always been 3 digit numerics.

So you've actually seen a cable receiver utilize Alpha Numerics? Which system/manufacturer?

As shown above Time Warner utilize 948 as the channel designator, not 48-1. Come to think of it I've never seen a cable or satellite receiver have more than a 3 character display, while 48-1 requires 4 characters.

They're not the "cable receivers" which are supplied by the cableco which support/implement PSIP Virtual channel remapping.

As I already said, and jdhughes posted which you quoted, WCET-DT's HD service shows up on 948 from TW supplied receivers. But, that is not the actual "channel of transmission" on TW's cable system for WCET digital, either.

The cable/QAM receivers which will show, for example "48.1/48.2" for WCET-DT --- are in "digital cable ready" TV sets with internal QAM demod (usually 8VSB/ATSC as well), or OTA ATSC 8VSB + QAM(for digital cable only) receivers(STB's or PC tuner cards) which support PSIP virtual channel remapping which the consumer purchases. They support this virtual channel remapping via cable the same way OTA ATSC/8VSB only digital receivers do.

It is not really "manufactuer specific" type of thing, it has more to do with how digital TV "works" via a MPEG2 Transport stream via OTA or cable +with PSIP info(which both broadcasters via OTA+in many cases cable via digital cable implement in some fashion).

Some of these "qam tuners" support PSIP properly but others may not(or the cableco may not be sending all of the necessary PSIP info which the broadcasters provide), and those user supplied QAM receivers which don't properly support PSIP will instead show the actual channel of transmission on the cable system + a "." or a "-" then a program stream # .....

See here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11440662#post11440662

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11635393#post11635393

Also, BTW, HD satellite receivers which use OTA digital tuners also use the virtual channel #'s (such as 48.1+48.2), but generally the way I understand it, instead of using the stations' PSIP VCT info, the channel remapping info comes from the EPG info from the satellite.

update: Also Keep in mind, as I explained in earlier post QAM has NOTHING to do with ATSC or OTA ... QAM is the signal modulation used by digital cable, 8VSB is signal modulation used by OTA digital .... The data(video/audio/etc) sent via MPEG2 transport stream however(either OTA via 8VSB ATSC, or via cable via QAM - usually QAM 256) works exactly the same way from either OTA or cable, and for receivers(whether they be demodulating a 8VSB OTA or QAM signal via cable) as well ....

jdhughes63

10-11-07, 09:43 PM

They're not the "cable receivers" which are supplied by the cableco which support/implement PSIP Virtual channel remapping.

As I already said, and jdhughes posted which you quoted, WCET-DT's HD service shows up on 948 from TW supplied receivers. But, that is not the actual "channel of transmission" on TW's cable system for WCET digital, either.

The cable/QAM receivers which will show, for example "48.1/48.2" ..................................

Well I think I should have skipped posting. I got really confused with all of the techno answers. I do understand the following. With TW service I can get WCET digital on 948. If I switch to a small antenna I have through the ATSC input I get 48.1. I punch it in as 48-sub-1. Not sure what I would find if I put the cable wire directly into the digital input. I might try that some day.

It can really get confusing to the novice of which i am not far removed from.

Bill R (# 2)

10-11-07, 10:48 PM

Also, BTW, HD satellite receivers which use OTA digital tuners also use the virtual channel #'s (such as 48.1+48.2).

DISH Network uses a five digit channel number for the OTA digital channels. For example, to key in (directly) channel 48.1 you press 04801 on the remote (no ".", no "-"). From the EPG the channel is listed as 048-01. If you key in just 481 you get a porn channel. :rolleyes:

Splicer010

10-11-07, 10:51 PM

Well I think I should have skipped posting. I got really confused with all of the techno answers. I do understand the following. With TW service I can get WCET digital on 948. If I switch to a small antenna I have through the ATSC input I get 48.1. I punch it in as 48-sub-1. Not sure what I would find if I put the cable wire directly into the digital input. I might try that some day.

It can really get confusing to the novice of which i am not far removed from.

You won't get anything unless the tuner is a QAM tuner beside being an ATSC tuner...

Splicer010

10-11-07, 10:55 PM

Using TW (Amelia, different from Cincinnati) my QAM receiver maps WCET as 109-7...Some tuners use a '-' and some use a '.' for channel designations...WSTR is 121-12 and so on...

Using the ATSC (OTA) tuner WCET is 48-1 and WSTR is 64-1.

Splicer010

10-11-07, 10:59 PM

planet_bill

10-12-07, 07:57 AM

planet_bill

10-12-07, 08:01 AM

DISH Network uses a five digit channel number for the OTA digital channels. For example, to key in (directly) channel 48.1 you press 04801 on the remote (no ".", no "-"). From the EPG the channel is listed as 048-01. If you key in just 481 you get a porn channel. :rolleyes:

D* would be 48-1. Threee digit channels are 206 (ESPN) etc. 4 digit channels like 1003 (CONC, concert.tv On Demand)

DaveA28

10-12-07, 08:37 AM

plughplover and/or Nitewatchman...Just thought of something that may (or may not) interest you guys...When I use my ATSC tuner, I have a program guide as well as the correct time...while using the QAM tuner I receive NO program guide and the clock is always wrong...

Would any of this have to do anything with anything???

TW doesn't always pass the EIT (Event Info Table) data; I've seen it on some channels and not on others. The time (STT) is probably always from their own systems clock. It seemed to be off about a minute a month ago, but now seems to be pretty close on the Adelphia Amelia system.

Splicer010

10-12-07, 08:44 AM

When I say the time is off...I mean by hours...Right now the clock says it is &:00PM when in fact is is 8:44AM...Yes, Amelia system...

wish

10-12-07, 11:35 AM

I'm currently using a Terk TV-5 in the basement of my house to pick up HD. Currently I'm getting everything I need other than ABC (damn VHF signal). Last night I played with the antenna location and found a spot where I can ALMOST get a steady signal. It fluctuates between a signal strength of 60-64 but I still get pixelation.

Without going into too many details, what might be a solution to get me over the hump? Is there such a thing as an indoor antenna pre-amp? If so might that be the best option? Another obvious option would be to move the antenna to the 1st floor and simply run the cable from the basement to the antenna. Would the run of cable (25 ft?) weaken the signal to the point that it isn't a viable solution?

I’m not interested in either an attic or rooftop solution. Since I can get everything other than ABC with the current setup those options seem too drastic just to get that last station. I figure there has to be a way to squeeze in ABC, since I’m so close to a locked signal, without going overboard.

If it matters I'm 14-15 miles from downtown at 220 to 230 degrees.

Nitewatchman

10-12-07, 11:54 AM

With TW service I can get WCET digital on 948.

With a TW supplied STB that is certianly what you get.

Not sure what I would find if I put the cable wire directly into the digital input. I might try that some day.

If your set is digital cable ready (has internal QAM tuner in addition to the "ATSC tuner" as splicer010 noted), and you try that you should show WCET-DT services on either the channel of transmission on the cable system in your area (such as the 109-7 splicer010 gets - it might be on a different channel in your area) if the PSIP channel remapping isn't "working" for some reason with your receiver, or 48.x if the PSIP channel remapping is working ...

Using TW (Amelia, different from Cincinnati) my QAM receiver maps WCET as 109-7...Some tuners use a '-' and some use a '.' for channel designations...WSTR is 121-12 and so on...

Your receiver isn't working with the PSIP data TW is sending, instead the "109" channel number for WCET is actually the cable channel TW has the signal on -- the "-7" is the MPEG2 program stream Number. The "main" (before the dash) channel numbers your getting there likely correspond to the "cable channels"/frequencies shown on this list :

http://www.csgnetwork.com/tvfreqtable.html

TW is sending PSIP info (at least via plughplover's headend confirmed via his TSreader HTML files), including VCT major/minor channel(48.x for WCET-DT) numbers, but they aren't sending some things that broadcaster sends(I.e. they are stripping some of the PSIP data out/sending some things "differently" - such as a CVCT instead of TVCT) which your receiver may need to properly implement the PSIP data as it does via OTA -- such as probably, 'service location descriptor' in the VCT as Plughplover and I have discussed - and regarding the EPG info, as DAVEA28 said, some of the info in the PSIP EIT's(event information tables) - aren't being sent by TW either .....

In last post, I provided link to a post by bbrodredk that shows how the channel remapping works via PSIP+QAM via TW on his receiver which *is* working(in some cases) with the PSIP channel remapping ...

DISH Network uses a five digit channel number for the OTA digital channels. For example, to key in (directly) channel 48.1 you press 04801 on the remote (no ".", no "-"). From the EPG the channel is listed as 048-01.

Thanks for the correction .....

Nitewatchman

10-12-07, 12:02 PM

Without going into too many details, what might be a solution to get me over the hump? .

#1_). Get the antenna out of basement to a higher location. "Below ground" reception really doesn't work very well. Regardless of whether you're going to actually do it or not, outside is better as well.

#2). I looked it up, and YMMV, but Personally, I'm not too impressed with the TV-5 .... I expect A VHF/UHF antenna of conventional, proven design would be a better choice. For instance, as indoor "settop" antennas go I expect a Terk HDTV(a) or (i) - the (a) verison is amplified -- which is a log periodic UHF antenna+VHF dipole(rabbit ears) would be a better choice.

wish

10-12-07, 03:05 PM

#1_). Get the antenna out of basement to a higher location. "Below ground" reception really doesn't work very well. Regardless of whether you're going to actually do it or not, outside is better as well. Yes, I was aware. It's only logical that taken the antenna out of the basement to level ground would help. That was a potential solution I was considering. It likely wouldn't be too difficult to put the antenna on the main floor and run cable to basement.

#2). I looked it up, and YMMV, but Personally, I'm not too impressed with the TV-5 .... I expect A VHF/UHF antenna of conventional, proven design would be a better choice. For instance, as indoor "settop" antennas go I expect a Terk HDTV(a) or (i) - the (a) verison is amplified -- which is a log periodic UHF antenna+VHF dipole(rabbit ears) would be a better choice.My first antenna was a RCA UHF antenna+VHF dipole but it didn't work well. I was getting a stronger signal when I switched to the Terk 5. In fact, it work so well on everything, other than ABC, that I didn't try another. I'll take your advice and try the Terk HDTVa.

I was hoping that your reply would be something like "well if your signal is that good in the basement then a preamp might push the VHF signal to the point that you can get a lock." Wishful thinking although I guess it's no worse than swapping antennas (if the Terk HDTVa works).

Nitewatchman

10-12-07, 06:22 PM

I was hoping that your reply would be something like "well if your signal is that good in the basement then a preamp might push the VHF signal to the point that you can get a lock." Wishful thinking although I guess it's no worse than swapping antennas (if the Terk HDTVa works).

Keep in mind, Preamp can't increase the amount of signal the antenna is receiving, but yeah it's possible what you're hoping for *might* happen if you add a preamp, especially if the amp's Noise figure is less than your tuner's(w/o an amp) ...

Whether or not a preamp will "help" enough in your specific circumstances, or for that matter if a TerkHDTVa will "help" enough or seem to "work better" than your current antenna is impossible to say, you just have to try and see .... If you get the amplified version (TerkHDTVa), you kill 2 birds with one stone, so to speak, probably for around the same price as adding a amp to your current antenna ....

Finding a "hot spot" for reception (chances are good there isn't such a spot in the basement) to place the antenna is probably your best bet, regardless of which antenna you use ...

----------

Update: If you want to try adding a amp to your current antenna ... Nothing special about an amp for an indoor antenna, I can't point you to anything "specific" as I haven't browsed around what amps various outlets carry lately -- but fairly low noise amps with about 12~15db gain are available and are generally inexpensive+offer good performance, these are often labeled as "distribution" amps or "for cable", but may also say in the "fine print" something like "suitable for use with antenna" .... I Might try something like a CM3042 or similar ... Lowe's did have CM3042 for around $20, but unless something has changed again, they don't carry any CM stuff anymore ....

ansarar

10-12-07, 07:57 PM

ansarar

10-12-07, 08:07 PM

HDTVa is excellent, but I've never really tried it for VHF. I just pick up abc from Dayton on 22-1 because I live in Mason and it comes through. Maybe I'll try that tonight. Prior to the HDTVa, however, I had another dipole that didn't pick up 9-1 so I just assumed that this was just another dipole.

Well I'll be damned. I extended the dipoles on the HDTVa and scanned again and picked up both 9-1 and 9-2 from Mason. Got a signal in the mid to upper 60s. Then I put the dipoles back into their non-extended position and maintained a signal around 60. Seemed to stay constant. This antenna is great, and can be had for around 33 bucks on amazon.com

cokebear

10-13-07, 11:58 AM

So I installed a new Hauppauge 1800 HVR. Hybred video recorder? Guess its because it has the QAM tuner in it. Anyway, it works very well for what it is. My only real complaint is I have to preform a scan of all channels and not channels by country, which would reduce the rescan times significantly, in order to get FOX-HD to show up in my channel list. Another side effect of this is that I find all the clear QAM TWC channels but I find them like 4-6 times for each channel.

Now the cool thing is it does play over my XBOX360 in HD and the software makes it fairly easy to make the recordings, it uses TitanTV so one click and it's set. Acts pretty much like any other DVR at that point. The only problem I have right now is I don't have CAT5 ran yet and my wireless connection isn't fast enough for HDTV. Currently I'm pulling a cable to the living room to watch it and removing it when I'm done. It's just gonna take me a little time to remedy this little problem.

This tuner also works as an ATSC tuner which I'm thinking about using that instead, as soon as I get an antenna, because the tuner is a dual and will record SD off of one tuner and HD off the other. So I'm hoping to use the antenna to pull in the Dayton stations. My new neighbor actually has an antenna stack that she doesn't want and has kindly offered to give it to me I just need to get a little help in getting it down.

Well that's all for now. Sure to post as this project moves along.

ansarar

10-13-07, 12:04 PM

Out of curiosity, what signal strength would we consider to be "good enough" to stop fiddling with dipoles without concern of signal loss? Seems to be like 65 and above to me.

Nitewatchman

10-13-07, 04:21 PM

re: "Hybrid" video recorder ....

I think "Hybrid Video recorder" for the Hauppauge 1600 or 1800 HVR is referring to them having both NTSC analog and ATSC (digital) tuners. QAM support was only somewhat recently added to the drivers - BTW, with the 1600 via ATSC OTA, I don't use the included Hauppauge software or MCE very often, but I don't get all those "scans" via different "countries" with ATSC OTA using the 1600 including with the hauppage software (wintv2000/etc) -- just a thought, perhaps you might want to check for a driver update to see if that is addressed at all ...

---------------

re: Minimum signal level for DTV reception :

You need to acheive and maintain at all times about 16db S/N (signal over noise, or "SNR" = signal to noise ratio) to acheive perfect DTV reception.

Interference, multipath uncorrectable by receiver/etc(anything other than the "desired" 8VSB signal, pretty much), is just seen as "noise" by the receiver. Minimum signal level(within a few db or so depending upon the system noise figure - which could be "detirmined" by the receiver's front end or preamp) for DTV reception at receiver input is about -85dbm.

The "signal" meters on most receivers show different "numbers"/readings for different receiver models ... For instance, I no longer have it, but if I recall correctly, a "reading" of "29" is suffiecent for a signal lock/DTV reception on a RCA DTC-100 ....

These "signal meters" are probably really best thought of as measuring "signal quality", and are mostly looking at BER (bit error rate) ... In other words, they're looking at how "easy" the datastreams are to decode, in most cases they aren't measuring anything about the RF signal itself .... They can show low, "bouncing around" (or no readings) when a strong signal laden with uncorrectable multipath or also if interference is present, and they can show high readings when a relatively weak but "clean" signal, a few db over threshold required for DTV reception is present.

Not allways necessary, but generally, IMO it might be a good idea to have at least 10db or so "overhead" (more signal than you need), so that issues such as signal fading or increased interference that sometimes occurs due to enhanced signal propagation, is less likely to cause reception related "dropouts"(what happens if the SNR drops below about 16db) ... Given a "clean" multipath correctable by receiver/interference "free" signal, You can see how "much" signal strength overhead you have by adding attenution in feedline (such as say, a 10db attenuator, or even splitters(2 way splitter= about -4db attenuation for instance), and seeing how much added attenuation it takes before you just lose a signal lock ....

blbrodbeck

10-13-07, 09:51 PM

Nice, .... no bitching about college football today!

Splicer010

10-13-07, 10:22 PM

Nice, .... no bitching about college football today!

:D:cool::D

Bengals better kick butt tomorrow though and Dallas/Patriots game will be one for the record books I am predicting!!!

Sad I can't watch Da' Bears though...

cokebear

10-14-07, 11:35 AM

re: "Hybrid" video recorder ....
I don't use the included Hauppauge software or MCE very often, but I don't get all those "scans" via different "countries" with ATSC OTA using the 1600 including with the hauppage software (wintv2000/etc) -- just a thought, perhaps you might want to check for a driver update to see if that is addressed at all ...

So what do you use to record if you aren't using the Hauppague or MCE?

With MCE I can record directly from the 360 in the living room but only SD, QAM isn't supported in MCE2005 and there is a lot of compression artifacts going to MS-DVR or whatever that format is. With the Hauppague software WinTV2000 I can record via QAM but then I have to go to the computer and manually set up the recordings via QAM or use Titan TV to set up recordings in SD. If I remember correctly if I end up using the ATSC tuner then MCE can record in HD but still compressed using MS's codecs which degrade the quality or can still use WinTV2000/Titan TV combo to get a better quality recording. I did have a little trouble at first playing a mpeg file larger than 4GB but installed the (Elcard?) mpeg codec and things took off.

jim tressler

10-14-07, 01:10 PM

anyone else having audio issues with wkrc (12-1) for the who dey game? I am getting very little sound out of the front.. its all coming out of the rear.. the sunday ticket hd version is fine.. jim

Splicer010

10-14-07, 02:08 PM

anyone else having audio issues with wkrc (12-1) for the who dey game? I am getting very little sound out of the front.. its all coming out of the rear.. the sunday ticket hd version is fine.. jim

Yes...My Pro Logic II has most audio coming from the rear...Almost echo-like...This is why I am watching the game via WHIO OTA...They broadcast DD5.1...which by the way has been seemingly going between 5.1 and 2.0 even though the receiver says DD5.1...

Bubster

10-14-07, 03:07 PM

Bengals audio screwed here also on TWC 912.

jimp2244

10-14-07, 03:56 PM

Checked WKRC-DT OTA and also noticed the audio issue. Watching via WHIO-DT though and no issues there.

Bubster

10-14-07, 04:05 PM

Upon further inspection (hands and knees with ear to my center channel:D) the sound is reversed! Voice coming out of all 4 corner speakers and crowd and ambient sound coming out of the center channel.

jimp2244

10-14-07, 04:59 PM

Nitewatchman

10-14-07, 05:02 PM

So what do you use to record if you aren't using the Hauppague or MCE?

For various reasons, I usually use WATCHHDTV's (http://watchhdtv.net/default.aspx) Schedulers (TS or DVR-MS versions).

Another one that I've used has been GBPVR. (http://www.gbpvr.com).

If I remember correctly if I end up using the ATSC tuner then MCE can record in HD but still compressed using MS's codecs which degrade the quality or can still use WinTV2000/Titan TV combo to get a better quality recording. I did have a little trouble at first playing a mpeg file larger than 4GB but installed the (Elcard?) mpeg codec and things took off.

I use the Elecard codecs for some applications, as I recall you pretty much need to use the Mainconcept (or elecard) codecs for the *mpg files created by Hauppague WinTV stuff ... My 1600 came bundled with the elecard(now mainconcept) codecs .... I don't think XP MCE 2005 o/s actually 'ships' with a MPEG2 decoder, system builders add a third party decoder ... Vista is different if I recall correctly

It doesn't reencode(*compress*) HD however, even with MCE, it's "recorded" just as it is sent by the source --- the container file format used for the program stream may be different(dvr-ms with MCE, *.mpg with the Hauppauge software, can be TS(and the entire transport stream or just a single program stream "within" the TS file), dvr-ms or *.mpg with other software).

Too complex to get into here, but What is happening with the directX filter graph+what filters/overlay/etc are used during playback can have effect on playback quality however ....

edit/update:

Oh, should also say --- Yes, as you mentioned MCE (XP 2005) works just fine for ATSC/OTA, at least it does on my setup with the Hauppauge 1600 ... Even the remote (which is not *supposed* to be a MCE remote) that came with my 1600 works fine with MCE for anything I've used it for ....

Splicer010

10-14-07, 05:24 PM

On WKRC-DT, I've noticed the "focus" or "blur" issue has been back in full force. On scene changes, the screen will get blurry and then slowly clear itself up. Additionally, the major macroblocking on fast motion is starting to get annoying. Nationally, I see a lot of people complaining about NBC's Sunday Night Football quality, but it seems that in this market, both CBS affilliates (WKRC-DT and WHIO-DT Dayton) look noticeably worse. Also last time I checked both CBS affilliates devote notably less bandwidth to the HD channel than WLWT-DT does.

CBS PQ sucks compared to FOX and NBC...As for the field looking grey and dark I switched back to the Factory 'Sports' setting on my Toshiba 51" CRT RPTV and the picture looks fantastic in comparison...I also switched to watching WKRC vis TW which seems to me to be a better picture than OTA...

Yes, CBS upon returning from a commercial is extremely blurry/soft and clears but not totally...The commercials look better than the game...

cokebear

10-15-07, 08:14 PM

Ok did a re-scan with the new tuner and came up with all the HD and SD channels (I think, there were 17 counting one that's just a test pattern) via QAM on TWC. However I still got plenty of duplicates NBC CBS FOX Weather WSTR KET all found 3 occurrences. CET found 6. Also get all the SD channels that TWC duplicates in the upper range twice. I think those come in around the 9000 range on the TWC HD DVR.

It's a shame there isn't an easier way to set up HD recordings via QAM with this thing. The guides on MCE nor Titan TV have QAM listings. I suppose I need to get those antennae down so I can go ATSC to make setting recordings easier.

Picture quality is pretty good with this thing and I have to say, for me, a one time fee for the tuner beats the crap out of paying monthly for a DVR.

One last note I can't seem to get the IR receiver to work with my computer but the remote will operate my 360 at least when in MC.

mikemikeb

10-16-07, 12:55 AM

On WKRC-DT, I've noticed the "focus" or "blur" issue has been back in full force. On scene changes, the screen will get blurry and then slowly clear itself up.I've heard of this before (and have seen it OTA on WUSA-DT, my local CBS station). It's due to an improper setting made by the station engineering on older Harris Flexicoders. They need to turn off "adaptive filtering". It's a simple adjustment in the encoder menu:

See http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=822863

Could someone please pass that onto a WHIO engineer? I know that a WKRC engineer once read this thread -- does he still?

jimp2244

10-16-07, 07:42 AM

So what do you use to record if you aren't using the Hauppague or MCE?I use BeyondTV. It is by far the best PVR software out there. I got it for $10 after rebate, but without rebate I think it's $50 or $60. You can download a 30 day trial though and once you do that you'll probably agree it's worth the money. I've got two tuners (ATI HDTV Wonder and Hauppauge HVR-950 usb stick) and record OTA two shows at once (and can watch a third using the TV's tuner). It will also mark where it thinks commercial transitions are (usually fairly accurate) and so when a commercial comes on you just hit one button and skip the whole commercial break. This is software that any family member can use as well. If you don't have a remote I would highly recommend their firefly RF remote (RF is better than IR as it works through walls and you don't have to "aim" it). I know BeyondTV supports QAM with the HDHomeRun but you may want to double check that it supports QAM with your tuner as I only use OTA.

fafner

10-16-07, 08:54 AM

Nitewatchman

10-16-07, 01:15 PM

I've heard of this before (and have seen it OTA on WUSA-DT, my local CBS station). It's due to an improper setting made by the station engineering on older Harris Flexicoders. They need to turn off "adaptive filtering". It's a simple adjustment in the encoder menu:

See http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=822863

...... I know that a WKRC engineer once read this thread -- does he still?

update: Or due perhaps to the flexicoder's default setting for adaptive filtering being "on", perhaps, as is mentioned in the thread at link your provided .... (such as , I assume it's possible perhaps after a reset, even if adaptive filtering had been turned off previously) ....

See here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5380735#post5380735

and here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5382011#post5382011

and here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9277827#post9277827

Could someone please pass that onto a WHIO engineer?

Haven't noticed this being an issue from WHIO-DT lately.

Nitewatchman

10-16-07, 01:40 PM

One last note I can't seem to get the IR receiver to work with my computer but the remote will operate my 360 at least when in MC.

Is the Hauppauage IR software loaded/running? (it has to be for the IR receiver to work ...) ....

WebHopperWeasel

10-16-07, 07:15 PM

I've heard of this before (and have seen it OTA on WUSA-DT, my local CBS station). It's due to an improper setting made by the station engineering on older Harris Flexicoders. They need to turn off "adaptive filtering". It's a simple adjustment in the encoder menu:

See http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=822863

Could someone please pass that onto a WHIO engineer? I know that a WKRC engineer once read this thread -- does he still?

I do still read the forum. We monitor it quite often in fact.

This setting is correct at the local WKRC site. But.... what you need to keep in mind is the many other encoders/flexicoders, etc... that are NOT located here. If the settings are wrong prior to delivery to the local station we can not fix any of those issues.

Weasel

nightowl2k2

10-16-07, 07:43 PM

It looks like TWC has added A&E and History HD to their lineup, 978 and 979 respectively. I guess they are trying to keep up with satellite with all of the new channels they have been receiving

Nitewatchman

10-16-07, 08:46 PM

I do still read the forum. We monitor it quite often in fact.

This setting is correct at the local WKRC site. But.... what you need to keep in mind is the many other encoders/flexicoders, etc... that are NOT located here. If the settings are wrong prior to delivery to the local station we can not fix any of those issues.

Weasel

It seemed to me perhaps likely that the Bengals/seahawks game(as I had posted after that game earlier in this thread), and now also this past weekend's Bengals/Chiefs game were likely quite "below par" vs. the usual case from NFL HD football on CBS from either WKRC-DT or WHIO-DT, and my guess would be from any other affiliates airing those games as well .. ------ In terms of increased "MPEG2 compression-like" artifacts(looked like blocking/mosquito noise issues) as "delivered" by CBS, or from the venue (backhaul issues perhaps -?), rather than it likely being entirely the usual local affiliate issue we have in SW Ohio from our CBS HD affiliates involving "MPEG2 compression issues" ....

Checking the CBS HD NFL threads in programming area for those two games, it seems others watching CBS HD affiliates elsewhere whom were airing those 2 games saw the same things as we did ...

Perhaps something along the lines of what I suspect has been the case from NBC HD (including from WLWT-DT) during live sports since about summer 2004 (including for a time *before* WLWT-DT began multicasting weatherplus), but not prior to summer 2004 for events airing on NBC HD such as 2002~2004 HD triple crown races, 2002 NBC/HDnet HD olympics from SLC, 2004 Daytona 500/etc .....

However, as far as the "focus/blur" issue goes, If I'm remembering correctly(it is possible I am not, as I only quickly made a A/B comparision of the "issue"), believe I only saw it on Sunday from WKRC-DT, not from WHIO-DT -- and I do believe it likely WHIO was getting the same HD feed for the game from CBS as WKRC, in which case I believe the same equipment is "in the chain" up to the point it is received at Local affiliate ....

---------------------

On another note, given the fine work WKRC folks have done to bring us NFL HD football, *including* Bengals HD games on Sunday afternoons from CBS, I caught this Yesterday on WCPO newscast and was surprised not to see any comments on it here yet/ was wondering what folks here thought of this :

John Matarese Says most Bengals Games on Sunday afternoons aren't available in HD, and that only "marquee" sports events are in HD (http://www.wcpo.com/content/news/localshows/dontwasteyourmoney/story.aspx?content_id=2f7a7f07-0014-40c6-8c12-fd3947b66a9d)

CincySaint

10-16-07, 09:41 PM

It looks like TWC has added A&E and History HD to their lineup, 978 and 979 respectively. I guess they are trying to keep up with satellite with all of the new channels they have been receiving

I just tried them and I don't see them.

Anyone else?

DaveA28

10-16-07, 09:59 PM

Splicer010

10-16-07, 10:01 PM

I just noticed them here on the Amelia system. Same channel numbers as Cincy. No EPG or channel names yet. I pressume they aren't 'in the clear'???:o

jim tressler

10-16-07, 10:35 PM

I shot him a note :) 5 out of 6 aint bad for a crappy team.. I would imagine that the Pittsburgh game will be hd too.. 6 out of 7 then...

---------------------

On another note, given the fine work WKRC folks have done to bring us NFL HD football, *including* Bengals HD games on Sunday afternoons from CBS, I caught this Yesterday on WCPO newscast and was surprised not to see any comments on it here yet/ was wondering what folks here thought of this :

John Matarese Says most Bengals Games on Sunday afternoons aren't available in HD, and that only "marquee" sports events are in HD (http://www.wcpo.com/content/news/localshows/dontwasteyourmoney/story.aspx?content_id=2f7a7f07-0014-40c6-8c12-fd3947b66a9d)

Splicer010

10-16-07, 11:06 PM

On another note, given the fine work WKRC folks have done to bring us NFL HD football, *including* Bengals HD games on Sunday afternoons from CBS, I caught this Yesterday on WCPO newscast and was surprised not to see any comments on it here yet/ was wondering what folks here thought of this :

John Matarese Says most Bengals Games on Sunday afternoons aren't available in HD, and that only "marquee" sports events are in HD (http://www.wcpo.com/content/news/localshows/dontwasteyourmoney/story.aspx?content_id=2f7a7f07-0014-40c6-8c12-fd3947b66a9d)

Had I noticed this, you KNOW I would have said something...Friggin idiot Matarese:mad:...

mikemikeb

10-16-07, 11:42 PM

I do still read the forum. We monitor it quite often in fact.Thanks for your continued involvement. With that in mind, I have a few comments about improving the HD picture.

Over time, there's going to be more people coming into the HDTV world, which means the need for more and better HD that the station apparently has the current capacity for. So, here's how I suggest improving on this.

Improved CBS HD pictures start with a new stamuxer system. Harris offers such a system called NetVX, but I've seen it in action here for months, and there's so much blurring on the HD channel, I can see it on my SDTV. I'm more open to a Harmonic Divicom system: One MV500, one MV100, and a DivitrackIP statmuxer (and any other needed statmux equipment). Oh, and maybe a 5.1 encoder / 5.1/2.0 switcher while at it.

The idea with this system is to reduce the required bitrate of CW-SD (12-2) to make a decent picture there, so the bandwidth for the HD channel can be increased, improving 12-1's picture.

The only guaranteed solution to improve digital PQ is improve bitrate. That's it. Sure, the companies will market amazing technology that claims to make things look better at lower bitrates, but MPEG-2 has computational/mathmatical limitations that make those technologies not work after a certain amount of bitrate drop. Those walls are much closer than what any encoder manufacturer will tell you.

So with that in mind, along with the fact that more people are going to be interested long term in the quality of the CBS-HD picture vs. the CW-SD and some random SD subchannel picture combined, the CBS HD channel should get the opened-up bitrate, NOT another subchannel. Just give the HD viewers a pure, pristine CBS HD picture. And whatever you do, please don't go 2 HD (CBS and CW) and 1 SD OTA, because that's marketing hooey that goes well beyond the mathematical limits of MPEG-2, that is, if the picture quality will be any good.

If you want to create a CW-HD (it's going to happen in Cincinnati; only a matter of time), use the current Harris HD encoder and make that channel cable-only (the encoding bitrate can then be higher because of the lack of ATSC bandwidth limits). OK, so if the satellite companies can get a fiber or microwave feed from you, give them the HD feed as well. There are so few people that watch the CW and so many people that get satellite and especially cable, that over-compressing the CBS-HD feed for cable, satellite, AND OTA is unfair for the many that watch it.

What about a dedicated CBS SD feed? Remember, with analog shutoff, the current OTA way to pick it up will be gone. For a reason to be explained later, I'd like it to go cable/satellite only, too. The Harris encoding card that currently encodes CW-SD will be fine for this application. No changes in bitrate from the current CW-SD feed are needed.

Why do all of this? Two reasons.

1. Backup encoding service. As HD becomes more popular, the need for backup encoders becomes more important. What if the Harris encoder breaks tomorrow? Could you continue HD service? Maybe that's nothing to worry about now, but in five years, uh...

You could purchase a duplicate Harris SD card, used or new, to provide an SD backup for CW-SD if the Harmonic system somehow breaks -- and substitute the CBS HD feed on the Harris while the problem is being addressed (in such a case, remember to raise the CW-HD bitrate back up when the Harmonic and CW-HD come back online).

With the Harmonic system, you might want to purchase a CBR version of the MV30 or MV50 for CBS SD if the Harris system breaks. It doesn't have to connect to any statmux system; remember, the supposed CBS SD feed would be cable/satellite-only.

Either way, because of a lack of interest in the CW, if one of the encoder systems goes out, just providing backup SD service for it should be OK enough not to spend money on backup encoders for the HD version, at least until 2015 and on.

2. A unique monthly revenue opportunity, without the need to add an SD OTA subchannel. Remember when I suggested taking CBS-SD and a hypothetical CW-HD service cable-only? It's simple as to why: I'm sure you've heard about how many media companies (like Mediacom) have retransmission agreements for cable companies where the station gets $.50 every month for each individual subscriber. Well, think of all those people with SDTVs that could be so confused with a new SD tuner box for when analog shutoff occurs. Market them this on your end, through scare-tactic news stories, on-air advertising, you name it: "Analog antenna service is going out in Feb., 2009! If you want CBS without an HDTV, why fiddle with another piece of equipment or worry that you're buying the right piece of equipment, when the cable (or satellite) company will do all the work for you, without you needing to buy anything?" Use that (and the fact of CW-HD not being available with an antenna, for those that care) as a rouse to get people to subscribe to a cable or satellite service, and so when it's time to negotiate with the providers, you'll get more money for CBS retransmission. It would be foolish to ask for $.50 for some random OTA SD subchannel, but asking $.50 for CBS retransmission (and get the CW absolutely free!) is a whole different story.

Win-win: Make more money; provide a pristine CBS picture for OTA and potentially any other source.

Splicer010

10-17-07, 08:20 AM

Oh, and maybe a 5.1 encoder / 5.1/2.0 switcher while at it.

This is the number1 needed piece of equipment in my opinion. The PQ is great, though on the past 2-3 Sundays the football really hasn't looked actually impressive when compared to NBC & FOX...but in WKRC's defense, their PQ does look better (to me) than WHIO...But I will still watch games on WHIO due to the simple fact that they broadcast in 5.1...

wish

10-17-07, 09:00 AM

#1_). Get the antenna out of basement to a higher location. "Below ground" reception really doesn't work very well. Regardless of whether you're going to actually do it or not, outside is better as well.

#2). I looked it up, and YMMV, but Personally, I'm not too impressed with the TV-5 .... I expect A VHF/UHF antenna of conventional, proven design would be a better choice. For instance, as indoor "settop" antennas go I expect a Terk HDTV(a) or (i) - the (a) verison is amplified -- which is a log periodic UHF antenna+VHF dipole(rabbit ears) would be a better choice.Nitewatchman, It's looking like I'm going to need to implement BOTH of your solutions to achieve my end goal. I tried #2 with the HDTV(a) in the basement. I could get 9.1 but I had to put the antenna on top of the tower speaker, extend the dipoles to max length and then spread them out. It was quite the eyesore and drove me nuts so I took it back.

Last night I ran RG6 from the receiver in the basement up to the first floor and moved the existing antenna. Much better reception (obviously) as I was able to pull in 2.1 & 7.1 from Dayton along with 9.1. The problem though is that it still wasn't quite strong enough. The 9.1 signal (yeah channel 10 I know ;) ) was a strength of about 66 so I'd still get pixilation.

I'm now going to go back to the store, get the HDTV(a) (again) and put it in the new first floor location. I'm going to bet that will solve my problem.

Thanks again for the advice.

jimp2244

10-17-07, 09:00 AM

We will get a total of 5 NFL games this week, all in HD. OTA-only viewers will get 4 games (will get game 2 of FOX doubleheader on WRGT 45 Dayton). Cable-only viewers will get 4 games (will get MNF game). FOX has the double-header this week.

Sunday Day Games:

1pm FOX (19 WXIX, 45 WRGT) San Francisco at New York Giants
Matt Vasgersian, Daryl Johnston, Tony Siragusa

4pm FOX (45 WRGT) Minnesota at Dallas*
Kenny Albert, Troy Aikman

4pm CBS (12 WKRC, 7 WHIO) New York Jets at Cincinnati
Ian Eagle, Solomon Wilcots

Sunday Night Football:

8:15pm NBC (5 WLWT, 2 WDTN) – Pittsburgh at Denver
Al Michaels, John Madden, Andrea Kramer

Monday Night Football:

8:30pm ESPN – Indiana at Jacksonville+
Mike Tirico, Ron Jaworski, Tony Kornheiser, Michele Tafoya, Suzy Kolber

*Bonus game for OTA viewers
+Cable Only

Notes: Second game of FOX doubleheader is blacked out on WXIX because of the Bengals sold-out home game showing on CBS at that time. OTA viewers can catch this game on WRGT 45 Dayton.

Changes in blue.

As always, let me know if any information is incorrect or needs to be updated.

slimm

10-17-07, 11:11 AM

I just tried them and I don't see them.

Anyone else?

The only way I was able to see them is to put the box in diagnostic mode. There is no program info but it appears that both channels mirror their SD counterparts.

jimp2244

10-17-07, 11:25 AM

FYI John M. updated the article at 11:23 today. Still not quite right but a bit better.

Update: LOL he updated it again at 11:24. Now it's better. :)

Bill R (# 2)

10-17-07, 01:42 PM

I caught this Yesterday on WCPO newscast and was surprised not to see any comments on it here yet/ was wondering what folks here thought of this :

John Matarese Says most Bengals Games on Sunday afternoons aren't available in HD, and that only "marquee" sports events are in HD (http://www.wcpo.com/content/news/localshows/dontwasteyourmoney/story.aspx?content_id=2f7a7f07-0014-40c6-8c12-fd3947b66a9d)

I am amazed about the lack of research that Matarese appears to do on some subjects. He is VERY poor on technical subjects (like HD and satellite). When you call or write the station to try to get the information corrected quite often it either does not get corrected or gets only partically corrected. I don't understand how any station allows that from a reporter but, apparently, no one at WCPO cares.

chrisirmo

10-17-07, 02:13 PM

4pm FOX (45 WRGT) Chicago at Philadelphia*
Ron Pitts, Tony Boselli

Jim, the NFL Distribution Maps (http://www.the506.com/nflmaps/2007-07-FOX2.html) site is now showing that WRGT has switched to the Minnesota/Dallas game.

jimp2244

10-17-07, 02:22 PM

Jim, the NFL Distribution Maps (http://www.the506.com/nflmaps/2007-07-FOX2.html) site is now showing that WRGT has switched to the Minnesota/Dallas game.Thanks! Updated. I was wondering when that would happen. Couldn't figure out why we weren't getting that game to begin with. NFL maps shows a whole slew of afilliates switching today.

Splicer010

10-17-07, 02:23 PM

Thanks! Updated. I was wondering when that would happen. Couldn't figure out why we weren't getting that game to begin with. NFL maps shows a whole slew of affiliates switching today.

I would rather see the Chicago game...:(

jim tressler

10-17-07, 03:43 PM

I emailed matterses last night.. here is his response
================================================

Thanks Jim.

I appreciate your feedback, and will update the report. The NON HD Bengals-Cleveland game is actually what prompted the story.

I use many different articles as sources for my HD reports...some are super accurate, some have flaws, some are outdated. And if its just outdated by a month, that can be deadly.

John Matarese
DontWasteYourMoney Consumer Reporter

Be sure to check my webpage for all my recent reports, consumer advice, recalls, product tests, and more...

Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 10:35 PM
To: Matarese, John
Subject: HD 101 a clarification

- Hide quoted text -
John - i appreciate you in your attempt to educate customers to HD - fact of the matter is more local stations need to help people navigate the complex waters of HD - however, I must point out that your article from yesterday is wrong. This season, all but 1 of the Benglas games has been in HD - in fact, CBS does 5 out of its 6 or seven games a week in HD and FOX does all 6 - on the rare weeks when there are 7 FOX games, the 7th game is sent in 480P - 16x9. Also look at the reds - all of their home games were in HD this year, so while not 100% - its getting there, but its not as bad as you have portrayed - finally, the Jets v. Bengals next week is HD as well.. so 5 out of 6.. not to shabby for a crappy team!

Thanks

Jim Tressler

Splicer010

10-17-07, 04:25 PM

I emailed matterses last night.. here is his response
================================================

I use many different articles as sources for my HD reports...some are super accurate, some have flaws, some are outdated. And if its just outdated by a month, that can be deadly.

John Matarese
DontWasteYourMoney Consumer Reporter

Thanks for posting the reply you received Jim :D.

Shouldn't Matarese, being a professional reporter, do everything in his power to verify and confirm what he is reporting to the public? To me it seems he is just googling HDTV and reporting on the first thing that comes up. This Bengals in HD bit is not a month old bad info he is leading us (you) to believe.

Nitewatchman

10-17-07, 06:26 PM

Involving Materse's HD story tonight on 6pm newscast :
Here's a couple of links he might have learned something from :

http://www.hdtvbychadb.com/services.htm

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=672923

Sorry, but the viewer(nor anyone else) can't properly calibrate a display using only "eyes" and the picture controls available in the "user menu" ....

That's not saying you "need" a ISF calibration either, but calibrating a display (even if it's limited to using test patterns/ such as are available via Calibration DVD+utilizing user control menus for adjustments) is a little more complicated than what was described ....

Splicer010

10-17-07, 06:44 PM

The guy is a joke...:rolleyes:

psm0110

10-17-07, 07:16 PM

Shouldn't Matarese, being a professional reporter, do everything in his power to verify and confirm what he is reporting to the public? To me it seems he is just googling HDTV and reporting on the first thing that comes up. This Bengals in HD bit is not a month old bad info he is leading us (you) to believe. Local news, and tv news in general, is a very poor information source. This goes double for the human interest and consumer watch dog schtuff.

Although WCPO's HD Weather maps are freakin awesome.

Nitewatchman

10-17-07, 07:29 PM

Well, I have no idea what sort of "optimization" you'd get via a retailer, involving what their "techs" would/might do ... I didn't think he provided enough details regarding the services(naming names, providing comparison reports of services provided/etc) specifically involved which he was reffering to ----

Since he didn't, it seemed to me it could have easily been construed(in fact that's how I perceived it) as dismissing *any* such display calibration services available out there as some sort of a *scam*, and when it comes to folks such as Chad B, that couldn't be further from the truth.

update:

Now, if this "optimization" service provided by all retailers that sell HD sets truly is just a tech "adjusting" user menu picture controls then certianly I'd have to agree with his conclusions on that. And I certianly can believe it's *possible* in at least some cases something like that might be the case, but given the general lack of details he provided regarding the issue AND regarding some of the misinformation I'm aware of he has provided in other reports, I'm afraid I can't just take his "word for it", so to speak .....

Splicer010

10-17-07, 09:32 PM

I always "optimize" my customers TV set to give the best picture for the source (480i CATV) when I do an install or go on a trouble call and never charged a dime for the 5-7 minute procedure...:rolleyes:

As I have been bitching about all along...Matarese is an idiot that knows not what he talks about...The only reason for watching WCPO news is the HD presentation...WKRC,WLWT & WXIX usually have much more 'accuracies' when it comes to reporting the news...I take hearing WCPO news with a grain of salt...:rolleyes:

Splicer010

10-17-07, 09:34 PM

DaveA28

10-17-07, 10:17 PM

I pressume they aren't 'in the clear'???:o

I believe all the new HD channels on TWC are switched (SDV), except for Star 64, which has to be in clear QAM. I also noticed the espn ppv channels that were on 127 (on the amelia system) are no longer there -- probably moved to switched.

mikemikeb

10-18-07, 06:33 AM

You read about it here first, Cincinnati AVS readers (unless you're, among others, Ken H or DrDon).

According to esteemed moderator Ken H (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11929488&post11929488), WXYZ-DT, an ABC affiliate in Detroit, which is owned by WCPO's owner, The E.W. Scripps Company, is introducing TWO new SD OTA subchannels by "early 2008". Apparently, however, a) I can't get any details on what will air on 7-3 (7-4, or "41-4", will apparently have the announced subchannel, according to Ken H), and b) I don't see anywhere on the press release that mentions a specific subchannel number for the announced subchannel.

However, the threat to the Cincinnati area is unmistakable. If this channel is going on in a Detroit market with a Scripps station, what are the chances that it won't end up on Scripp's flagship station?

This may be a false alarm, but if not, the current picture quality of WCPO-HD may be gone very soon.

jimp2244

10-18-07, 07:59 AM

HDTV [News] a year away at other local stations
John Kiesewetter
The Enquirer (http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071018/ENT/710180302/1025)

Managers of Greater Cincinnati's three other TV newsrooms say high-definition is at least a year away for their stations.

"The exact timing of our transition to HD news remains uncertain at this point, including whether or not we'll introduce it in 2008," says Richard Dyer, WLWT-TV (Channel 5) president and general manager.

John Long, WXIX-TV (Channel 19) general manager, said his station could start local news in HDTV sometime next year.

A timetable for WKRC's transition to HDTV won't be determined until Providence Equity Partners Inc. completes its purchase of Channel 12 - and 50 other Clear Channel TV stations - later this year, says Dotsy Klei, acting general manager.

According to the Television Broadcast magazine, 57 of the nation's TV stations - 3 percent - broadcast local news in HDTV. Cleveland, Columbus and Indianapolis stations have been airing local news in HDTV since early this year.

More than 30 percent of Greater Cincinnati and Northern Kentucky homes have HDTVs, according to information from area cable companies and TV stores, says Joe Martinelli, Channel 9 chief engineer. Nationally, about 20 percent of U.S. homes have HDTVs, says Nielsen Media Research.

jim tressler

10-18-07, 08:12 AM

Since I never watch Channel 9 - I am sure he didn't?

jim

Sure was quick correcting himself on the air tonight, wasn't he??? :rolleyes:

Bubster

10-18-07, 12:54 PM

I just tried them and I don't see them.

Anyone else?

Have them here in Fairfield. Those channels do nothing for me but my elderly mother will be delighted. Of course, she lives in a different section of Fairfield so I'll call to see if they have them yet.

Nitewatchman

10-18-07, 02:21 PM

Been looking through the "archive" scripts from John Materese's "HD101" stories, available here :

HD101: Read all of John's reports ... (http://www.wcpo.com/content/news/localshows/dontwasteyourmoney/story.aspx?content_id=90f7e2b9-4662-4ccd-9228-39bce1b2a004)

-------------------

And really, it looks to me about 1/2 of it, maybe more especially some of the *most important stuff" is very good and accurate information, presented in a fairly simple/straightforward way ..... Check these out, for instance, I think for the most part he did a really good job with these :

Simplest way to Receive HD signals ? (http://www.wcpo.com/content/news/localshows/dontwasteyourmoney/story.aspx?content_id=b7b463e6-0de7-4a43-8e6c-23b6e69c266d) -- Yes, he actually tells folks about OTA HD and using an Antenna! -- Update: Ok, I "overlooked it" at first, but of course there is no such thing as a "analog TV antennas" .... using an antenna for analog TV (of course the same antenna can be used for digital/HD as well) would be the correct way to refer to that ...

Convert Your Old TV (http://www.wcpo.com/content/news/localshows/dontwasteyourmoney/story.aspx?content_id=a853c4d2-c723-4486-95a9-9ec9a11519cd) - Talks about analog shut off/the DTV converter boxes/"coupon" program etc ... update: hmm .. although, I'm not sure at this point if the part about those with cable being "ineligable" for the coupons is accurate .... Also, I don't know what a "glass box" TV is ....

Why can't you get ch 9 in HD? (http://www.wcpo.com/content/news/localshows/dontwasteyourmoney/story.aspx?content_id=73b02c43-066a-49a8-9e74-3b8d7339e02a) - Tells folks about needing antenna for both VHF and UHF (including for WCPO-DT on VHF) ...

--------------

Regarding some of the others .... It's not that some of this are "inaccurate"(What I have found in his HD stories that has been I believe I've already commented on) , but I think he needed to provide a little more info in some of those stories for them to contain information that is very useful.

For instance, in this one, How do you find Channel 9.1? (http://www.wcpo.com/content/news/localshows/dontwasteyourmoney/story.aspx?content_id=4ec695b8-4d0c-45dc-b606-1c26c3eab65e) -- There is no mention of PSIP channel remapping, receiver scans(and what happens if the signal isn't sufficent because of need for antenna "adjustment"/etc if the PSIP info can't be decoded) or "QAM cable" in the clear channels via user supplied QAM tuners, or mention of the fact that different receiver models/etc. handle thise sorts of issues "differently", which are the "main" issues involved concerning why people "have problems" finding "channel 9.1" I think ....

Granted, that is certianly not easy issue to cover, but I think it's an important one -- And, it's not that it is they are that "difficult" or 'complicated' issues either, but it is I think it is certianly difficult(impossible, really) to address properly in a couple of short sentences ...

BDavidson1313

10-19-07, 09:22 AM

I have scan thru this forum for a couple of days now, and I really appreciate all the great information given. I came across it while researching a problem trying to pulling in WCPO-DT OTA (which by the way isn't solved yet) but I believe my problem is with the antenna being used, (Terk - interior model), I get everything in Cincy except WCPO-DT and some of Dayton. I believe based on information from antennaWeb that I need something outside with a little more gain. Anyways, I have some tests to run, if any of you have recommendations that would be great. Keep up the discussion I know there are people reading even if they don't always post. Bobby

JunkyardDogg

10-19-07, 10:58 PM

According to esteemed moderator Ken H (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11929488&post11929488), WXYZ-DT, an ABC affiliate in Detroit, which is owned by WCPO's owner, The E.W. Scripps Company, is introducing TWO new SD OTA subchannels by "early 2008".

However, the threat to the Cincinnati area is unmistakable. If this channel is going on in a Detroit market with a Scripps station, what are the chances that it won't end up on Scripp's flagship station?

This may be a false alarm, but if not, the current picture quality of WCPO-HD may be gone very soon.

Well, if WXYZ was the first Scripps station to go HD news, then WCPO came in the next wave, I would bet we could see this channel coming. Obviously 9.2 isn't going anywhere with it being carried on cable. Hopefully the engineers at WCPO can tweak the bandwidth in favor of 9.1, with all their new HD programming. As of right now, the picture is very good and 9.2 has too much bandwidth allocated to it, so if they bring 9.2 down to around 1.5 Mbps (Like 5.2), then maybe a 9.3 would be possible at 2.0 Mbps. Again, statmuxing would be a must and it would have to give preference to 9.1.

With the Tube gone missing, WXIX and Raycom are searching to add another subchannel. I would prefer WXIX to pick up this RTN network, because of the FOX splicer taking the bandwidth that it needs first, then giving the rest to the station.

jimp2244

10-20-07, 09:27 AM

Updated NFL Week 6 Schedule (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11930653#post11930653)... again.

mlbUC

10-20-07, 10:37 AM

Just a heads up... not sure if OSU is nationally on ABC or ESPN2, but either way they are on ABC today (ESPN2 shows an option of 2 games, whichever is not on ABC).

You have a heads up here, TBenson.

Nitewatchman

10-20-07, 11:02 AM

I get everything in Cincy except WCPO-DT and some of Dayton. I believe based on information from antennaWeb that I need something outside with a little more gain. Anyways, I have some tests to run, if any of you have recommendations that would be great. Keep up the discussion I know there are people reading even if they don't always post. Bobby

1st, welcome to the fourm.

Secondly, Where are you located(generally) ? Difficult to provide any thoughts regarding what might have a good chance of working well if we don't know where you are ... Or, even better if you could post your antennaweb or www.tvfool.com results ....

Bubster

10-20-07, 11:32 AM

1st, welcome to the fourm.

Secondly, Where are you located(generally) ? Difficult to provide any thoughts regarding what might have a good chance of working well if we don't know where you are ... Or, even better if you could post your antennaweb or www.tvfool.com results ....

Not directed at me but I wonder what you make of mine (attached). I have no choice but to try an indoor antenna and the results at tvfool make me think it's not gonna work very well.

Nitewatchman

10-20-07, 12:16 PM

I have no choice but to try an indoor antenna and the results at tvfool make me think it's not gonna work very well.

Difficult to take attuenuation factors(shooting through brick walls=more attenuation than Wood, or even better "plain window glass" for instance) into account, and impossible to predict how difficult an issue multipath may be ...

But otherwise, anything predicted to be stronger than -90dbm(note for instance, -80dbm is weaker than -70dbm) or so is within the realm of possibility for indoor antenna reception ... So, I'd say you've got a good shot at reception of many stations with indoor antenna setup, especially for Dayton (appears that Terrain obstructions are predicted to cause significant attenuation to Cincinnati signals) ....

When you run the TVfool plot, scroll down a bit, underneath the "plot" itself, there is text that explains/provides guidance on your results, including involving the predicted signal levels, including the below :

Background color - Expected performance

green - These are quite strong and you will probably get a usable signal with an indoor (set-top) antenna, although you may need to be on the side of the house facing the transmitters.

yellow - These signals are not that strong and hence you may need a medium gain antenna on the second floor or attic to receive channels at this level and above.

red - These signals are weak and hence you may need a high gain antenna on the roof to receive channels at this level and above.

grey - These signals are quite weak, so you'll need to really work at it for any chance of reception.

Hope that helps ....

update: FWIW, I've attached my tvfool digital plot below --- I can receive everything down to "WXIX-DT" on the list from indoors(at least when I checked it) - with a simple UHF folded dipole as well as VHF rabbit ears for WCPO-DT, *but only* with a amp and placing antenna near South facing second flooor window for Cincinnati stations, placing antenna near a East facing 2nd Story window for Dayton .... No *other* spot for antenna indoors(even a much "better" antenna) works for more than a couple of stations here or there(those usually being WRGT-DT WDTN-DT) ...

Note: Note that The LP digital stations in the area which are on the list (WOTH-LD, WBQC-LD, W36DG and W27CT) aren't on the air yet ...

jdhughes63

10-20-07, 03:42 PM

Here we go again. The number 1 team in the country (Ohio State) is on WCPO TW-909 in glorious SD.

It is also supposed to be on ESPN2 TW-976. That channel has a blank screen.

terryfoster

10-20-07, 03:48 PM

They switched it on to HD and then off. I think they're having troubles with the HD feed for this game.

Now, what I think is ridiculous is the amount of time from the end of the Miami game and when WKRC switched over to the CBS game. They even took all sorts of time to do self promotion. If they had skipped the self promotion we wouldn't have missed the UK touchdown.

jdhughes63

10-20-07, 03:50 PM

Here we go again. The number 1 team in the country (Ohio State) is on WCPO TW-909 in glorious SD.

It is also supposed to be on ESPN2 TW-976. That channel has a blank screen.

Well after the first touchdown the third string weekend crew finally changed the SD over to HD. TW-909 is now in HD

Bubster

10-21-07, 04:02 PM

hmm, cool. Thanks Nightwatchman!

jdhughes63

10-21-07, 09:02 PM

Another Sunday night without HD on CBS. This is becoming a regular thing on Sunday nights. No Viva Lauglin, no Cold Case, & No Shark in HD.

This is happening week after week. You would think that WKRC could remedy this problem by now. What is the point of these shows transmitting in HD if WKRC doesn't carry them.

The standard response is we will transmit if the show is sent in nHD. Well folks all of thwese shows are in nHD and WKRC is not carrying them

wish

10-22-07, 08:51 AM

Anyone else have problems with the signal for WKRC (channel 31) during the Bengals game? My Dad came over to watch in HD for the first time and the signal was cutting out now and again. The signal strength was around 78 and once every 5-10 minutes it would lose signal and then reacquire. Fortunately I was able to switch to WHIO in Dayton and I didn't have one drop out after that. What's the deal with WKRC's signal? Why would a signal of 78 cut in and out but one of around 66 (WHIO) remain constant?

It sucks when your trying to show off you HDTV and something like this pops up! :eek:

mlbUC

10-22-07, 08:55 AM

Do you have trees around, wish? Could have been multipath causing the dropouts if there are many trees around.

wish

10-22-07, 09:02 AM

Do you have trees around, wish? Could have been multipath causing the dropouts if there are many trees around.Yes, there are a few trees but not many. If multipath was the issue why was WHIO OK without dropouts?

P.S. On a possibly related note, does anyone experience a degrade in the CBS (channel 10) signal at night? It seems like I'll be at a steady 70 until prime time and then the signal slips to the low 60's.

BDavidson1313

10-22-07, 10:13 AM

Fairfield south of Harbin Park, tried a RCA inside/outside antenna this weekend both on the house and on the roof, pickup more of Dayton but not WCPO-DT so I returned it to the store. Wife doesn't like the more traditional antennas, but this test may have convinced her this may be the only route. We want WCPO-DT in time for the Superbowl.

* yellow - uhf WKRC-DT 12.1 CBS CINCINNATI OH 169° 14.0 31
yellow - uhf WKEF 22 ABC DAYTON OH 35° 32.8 22
* yellow - uhf WKEF-DT 22.1 ABC DAYTON OH 35° 33.2 51
* yellow - uhf WLWT-DT 5.1 NBC CINCINNATI OH 173° 13.2 35
* yellow - uhf WXIX-DT 19.1 FOX NEWPORT KY 179° 13.1 29
yellow - uhf WPTD 16 PBS DAYTON OH 36° 33.1 16
* yellow - uhf WPTD-DT 16.2 PBS DAYTON OH 36° 33.1 58
yellow - uhf WRGT 45 FOX DAYTON OH 35° 33.2 45
* yellow - uhf WDTN-DT 2.1 NBC DAYTON OH 36° 32.8 50
* green - uhf WRGT-DT 45.1 FOX DAYTON OH 35° 33.2 30
* green - uhf WCET-DT 48.1 PBS CINCINNATI OH 173° 13.2 34
green - vhf WDTN 2 NBC DAYTON OH 36° 32.8 2
green - uhf WBDT 26 CW SPRINGFIELD OH 35° 33.2 26
* green - uhf WBDT-DT 26.1 CW SPRINGFIELD OH 35° 33.2 18
* green - vhf WCPO-DT 9.1 ABC CINCINNATI OH 168° 13.4 10
green - vhf WHIO 7 CBS DAYTON OH 35° 33.9 7
* red - uhf WHIO-DT 7.1 CBS DAYTON OH 35° 33.9 41
red - uhf WCET 48 PBS CINCINNATI OH 173° 13.1 48
red - vhf WKRC 12 CBS CINCINNATI OH 169° 14.0 12
red - vhf WLWT 5 NBC CINCINNATI OH 173° 13.2 5
red - uhf WXIX 19 FOX NEWPORT KY 179° 13.1 19
red - uhf WKOI 43 TBN RICHMOND IN 351° 14.3 43
red - uhf WSTR 64 MNT CINCINNATI OH 166° 8.1 64
* red - uhf WSTR-DT 64.1 MNT CINCINNATI OH 166° 8.1 33
* red - uhf WPTO-DT 14.2 PBS OXFORD OH 351° 14.3 28
red - vhf WCPO 9 ABC CINCINNATI OH 168° 13.4 9
red - uhf WBQC-CA 38 IND CINCINNATI OH 168° 13.4 38
red - uhf WOTH-LP 25 IND CINCINNATI OH 168° 13.4 25
red - uhf W36DG 61 TBN CINCINNATI OH 158° 7.9 61
blue - uhf WRCX-LP 40 IND DAYTON OH 36° 32.6 40
blue - uhf WPTO 14 PBS OXFORD OH 332° 16.1 14
violet - vhf WCMH 4 NBC COLUMBUS OH 65° 94.0 4

tbenson81

10-22-07, 11:39 AM

I am going to echo the comments from Hughes in regards to WKRC. It is getting pretty pathetic missing all the Sunday shows in HD.

Oh and another week of missing part of the marqee game of the week so we could watch the end of Miami and Temple - lol. Not only did we have to watch the end, but we had to watch them interview the coaches at the end and then watch 5 minutes of commercials!

So if Miami would have gone into OT - would we have missed the entire first half of Kentucky vs Florida?

Someone needs to clue this station in. They could keep that game on the standard 12, but there is no reason they cant show the Kentucky game on the HD 12. Other markets do this all the time with crappy local games

WCPO had part of the 1st quarter of the Buckeyes in non-HD as well. HD technology isnt new anymore....This shouldnt be that difficult.

Tony

BDavidson1313

10-22-07, 12:20 PM

Additional Info:

Sorry not able to paste the TVFool information. I guess I need to make a few more post to this forum before I can be trusted. Looking at my information vs Bubster mine is adjusted more sever, ie less greens, more yellows and reds. Just as a indication:

WCPO-DT 10 (9.1) ABC 16.30 -76.0 2Edge 15.0 166.9 - 107.9

at the top (ish) of the yellow section

Nitewatchman

10-22-07, 03:47 PM

Yes, there are a few trees but not many. If multipath was the issue why was WHIO OK without dropouts?

Multipath echoes are specific to the signal path(s) involved(WKRC-DT transmits from Cincinnati, WHIO from Dayton for instance) and is also often very frequency specific even if the same transmit antenna/location were being used .... In other words, if two stations were transmitting off same tower, but on different channels(the closer the frequencies are together the less likely the multipath conditions would be all that different), multipath conditions on say, channel 12 can be very different from say, channel 31 ....

------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope the below makes some sense+helps in some way, as much of what I wanted to say applies to both wish's and Bdavidson1313's comments, and it didn't make sense to me to split it into two replies ... but some of it is only "specific"(regarding the "signal meter readings") to wish's comments ....

P.S. On a possibly related note, does anyone experience a degrade in the CBS (channel 10) signal at night? It seems like I'll be at a steady 70 until prime time and then the signal slips to the low 60's.

Fairfield south of Harbin Park, tried a RCA inside/outside antenna this weekend both on the house and on the roof, pickup more of Dayton but not WCPO-DT so I returned it to the store.

Haven't experienced that(lower signal "readings" at night from any local station for that matter) here. Expect you had a typo, as in earlier post you had noted WKRC-DT (CBS cincinnati) transmits on channel 31, WCPO-DT (ABC) transmits on 10, so I assume the latter is what wish is reffering to in above quote ......

The signal "readings" wish is reffering to likely aren't showing you signal strength(in my experience with several receivers even if it is "labeled" as "signal strength on the screen), They usually mostly involve BER(bit-error rate) and - in less "technical" terms, basically(but not "technically" correct) how "easy" it is for your decoder to decode the datastreams, rather than looking at anything regarding the RF signal -- in other words RF signal=the signal being transmitted OTA that contains the datastreams, rather than the streams/info contained "within" the signal, and those readings are usually generally best thought of as signal quality reading.

For instance, Even a relatively weak, but "clean" signal/multipath correctable by receiver can show high readings on these meters, and a strong signal, laden with multipath+interference can show a big fat "0", or bounce around like crazy along with the "dropouts" ....

Multipath, interference/etc. can all effect those readings, the "amount" of signal being output by the transmitter/transmitting antenna doesn't change, except when rare circumstances (techincal problems/etc) occur, and even then it is very unlikely that would happen/change on a "nightly" basis.

You might want to Check analog WCPO 9/look for increased interference when you start getting the "lower" readings at night. Various sorts of interference can be a problem on VHF, including of the sort created "naturally" by lightning strikes, and also "man made" interference of generally the same type created by various household appliances. If you do see increased interference, it's possible it could be electrical interference caused by various nearby outdoor lighting/etc. switching on at night, or if you're using indoor antenna, especially if there's anything like that/including interference from any appliances in your home if you're using indoor antenna ...

If not, depending on where you are located, especially if you are around, say, Wilmington, OH area or generally in between columbus+cincinnati, Co-channel interference from WBNS 10 (analog) columbus is a possibility, although it's probably unlikely it would be a "regular" nightly occurance ....

Other possibilities as well .... For instance, Could be multipath or signal fading or some combination of issues "specific" to the receive location, or could just be that you're just barely over the threshold signal level required for reception and any little slight change in reception conditions causes the readings to drop a bit ...

*Many* factors can effect reception(doesn't mean they allways will), including issues which may effect some channels and not others. That is why it is often best to use a properly installed/aimed outdoor antenna(in this area for both VHF+UHF) of proven, conventional design and with a good amount of gain/directivity to have the best shot of achieving consistantly reliable results ....

wish

10-22-07, 04:38 PM

Haven't experienced that(lower signal "readings" at night from any local station for that matter) here. Expect you had a typo, as in earlier post you had noted WKRC-DT (CBS cincinnati) transmits on channel 31, WCPO-DT (ABC) transmits on 10, so I assume the latter is what wish is reffering to in above quote .You are correct. That was a typo on my part. WKRC (CBS channel 31) was one issue (strong signal with occasional dropout) and issue two was WCPO (ABS channel 10) was where the signal seems to dip at night.

Sounds like multipath is an issue for channel 31 and some kind of night time interference is at play for channel 10. :(

At least it appears I have WHIO to fall back on for channel 31 as I don't seem to experience the same multipath.

BDavidson1313

10-22-07, 05:42 PM

Multipath echoes are specific to the signal path(s) involved(WKRC-DT transmits from Cincinnati, WHIO from Dayton for instance) and is also often very frequency specific even if the same transmit antenna/location were being used .... In other words, if two stations were transmitting off same tower, but on different channels(the closer the frequencies are together the less likely the multipath conditions would be all that different), multipath conditions on say, channel 12 can be very different from say, channel 31 ....

------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope the below makes some sense+helps in some way, as much of what I wanted to say applies to both wish's and Bdavidson1313's comments, and it didn't make sense to me to split it into two replies ... but some of it is only "specific"(regarding the "signal meter readings") to wish's comments ....

Haven't experienced that(lower signal "readings" at night from any local station for that matter) here. Expect you had a typo, as in earlier post you had noted WKRC-DT (CBS cincinnati) transmits on channel 31, WCPO-DT (ABC) transmits on 10, so I assume the latter is what wish is reffering to in above quote ......

The signal "readings" wish is reffering to likely aren't showing you signal strength(in my experience with several receivers even if it is "labeled" as "signal strength on the screen), They usually mostly involve BER(bit-error rate) and - in less "technical" terms, basically(but not "technically" correct) how "easy" it is for your decoder to decode the datastreams, rather than looking at anything regarding the RF signal -- in other words RF signal=the signal being transmitted OTA that contains the datastreams, rather than the streams/info contained "within" the signal, and those readings are usually generally best thought of as signal quality reading.

For instance, Even a relatively weak, but "clean" signal/multipath correctable by receiver can show high readings on these meters, and a strong signal, laden with multipath+interference can show a big fat "0", or bounce around like crazy along with the "dropouts" ....

Multipath, interference/etc. can all effect those readings, the "amount" of signal being output by the transmitter/transmitting antenna doesn't change, except when rare circumstances (techincal problems/etc) occur, and even then it is very unlikely that would happen/change on a "nightly" basis.

You might want to Check analog WCPO 9/look for increased interference when you start getting the "lower" readings at night. Various sorts of interference can be a problem on VHF, including of the sort created "naturally" by lightning strikes, and also "man made" interference of generally the same type created by various household appliances. If you do see increased interference, it's possible it could be electrical interference caused by various nearby outdoor lighting/etc. switching on at night, or if you're using indoor antenna, especially if there's anything like that/including interference from any appliances in your home if you're using indoor antenna ...

If not, depending on where you are located, especially if you are around, say, Wilmington, OH area or generally in between columbus+cincinnati, Co-channel interference from WBNS 10 (analog) columbus is a possibility, although it's probably unlikely it would be a "regular" nightly occurance ....

Other possibilities as well .... For instance, Could be multipath or signal fading or some combination of issues "specific" to the receive location, or could just be that you're just barely over the threshold signal level required for reception and any little slight change in reception conditions causes the readings to drop a bit ...

*Many* factors can effect reception(doesn't mean they allways will), including issues which may effect some channels and not others. That is why it is often best to use a properly installed/aimed outdoor antenna(in this area for both VHF+UHF) of proven, conventional design and with a good amount of gain/directivity to have the best shot of achieving consistantly reliable results ....

I have first asked if anyone had suggestion as to which antenna they might reccomend that I look at or try. Night... you then ask where I was located, I am not quite sure how the reply (combined reply with wish) answers that or did I miss the whole point.

plughplover

10-22-07, 07:06 PM

Fairfield south of Harbin Park

Ouch - if you're where I think you are, you've got an even bigger hill than I do between you and Cincy!

You might want to check out the tvfool.com site for signal predictions.

Nitewatchman

10-22-07, 07:19 PM

I have first asked if anyone had suggestion as to which antenna they might reccomend that I look at or try. Night... you then ask where I was located, I am not quite sure how the reply (combined reply with wish) answers that or did I miss the whole point.

I'm just trying to help based on the info you provided, and hoped some of the info I provided in my last reply would be useful info for both yourself and wish in some way.

A recommendation for any given *specific* antenna/antenna model/etc, at this point that might improve your reception may be a bit premature, since we don't really know yet what may be going on/causing your WCPO-DT reception problem, it's *possible* for instance that the problem is not with the antenna itself, but may involve interference issues, or (probably quite unlikely)could even involve the tuner's VHF performance ....

This might tell us something ---- What does your WCPO 9 *analog* reception look like with the antennas you've tried ? Was it "clear", or was it weak (snowy), or was there signifcant ghosting or signs of interference? ("squiggly lines", "static"/etc) ..... What about the other Cincinnati analog stations(VHF and UHF?) .... Also, Was the "indoor/outdoor" RCA antenna you said tried a VHF/UHF antenna or just a UHF antenna?

The signal prediction info you posted from tvfool predicts signal level from WCPO-DT (-76dbm) which should be sufficent to make reception with an indoor antenna something of a possibility, but, because *many* factors can effect reception, that doesn't mean it will work for good reception just based on a signal strength prediction. So, I tried to go into some of those factors concerning *possibilities* why reception of WCPO *may* not be working for you in hopes it might help you out in your troubleshooting of the problem .....

The reason I asked for your location, earlier, is because receive location is specific to such issues as: 1). how strong the signals may be(note terrain obstructions, which are taken into account by Tvfool predictions are also often a signficant issue of importantce), 2). specific to whether or not different antenna "aiming" is required for best results with a directional antenna, and 3). also partly because some directional antennas are designed to receive stations coming in from a bit "wider range of headings" than others ---- up to about 45 degrees for an antenna such as CM4221 UHF only 4 bay bowtie, while for instance a CM4228 UHF 8 bay bowtie has more directivity(you'd generally probably only want to use it with a "single aiming" with stations no more than 15~20 degrees apart) +also more gain+is also "better" at handling multipath than a CM4221) ...

As an example, If you were in Florence, KY one antenna heading has a good chance to work well for Both Dayton+Cincinnati reception, but if you are in say, Blue ash, for best results from both Dayton+Cincinnati you'd likely want a rotor, or seperate cincinnati/dayton antennas on seperate feedlines with A/B switch before receiver to switch between them ...

-------

As for antenna recommendation, there are many options available which might work well in your situation, so it's difficult to make any specific recommendations. a "all in one" VHF/UHF combo with rotor, Seperate VHF/UHF antennas usually provide better performance, seperate Dayton/Cincinnati antennas so you don't need a rotor/etc/etc/etc ....

I did say this in my last post and it *was* meant to address your "antenna suggestion" question in a general way ...

Many* factors can effect reception(doesn't mean they allways will), including issues which may effect some channels and not others. That is why it is often best to use a properly installed/aimed outdoor antenna(in this area for both VHF+UHF) of proven, conventional design and with a good amount of gain/directivity to have the best shot of achieving consistantly reliable results ....

Again, many possible options that might work well, but to expand on that a bit, In *general*, for a "one size fits all" antenna solution that would likely be a good choice for your situation, for best results, I would recommend a directional, small~medium sized VHF/UHF antenna of conventional design(such as RS-VU90) with rotor. For Dayton+Cincinnati - One heading should work for Dayton and one heading for Cincinnati with just about any good "directional" antenna judging by your antenna web results - For WKOI-DT TBN Oxford or WPTO 14 analog however, good chance you'd need a different aiming for it) mounted outdoors+away from nearby obstructions.

As far as "indoor" antennas go -- You're probably not going to find a better "store bought" antenna for VHF reception than "rabbit ears" -- You can of course try putting an "outdoor" antenna indoors if you like(if you have a place it will "fit"), but getting it outdoors will likely give you a much better shot at it ....

hope that helps ....

Nitewatchman

10-22-07, 07:24 PM

You might want to check out the tvfool.com site for signal predictions.

He did. See his post #8444 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11978569#post11978569) just a few posts up.

The info he posted for WCPO-DT predicts reception via double edge diffraction, and a -76dbm signal strength for him for WCPO-DT, I assume the "107.9" is from the "LOS" column (as in antenna needs to be 108FT above ground for LOS reception from his location - LOS of course is not necessary for reception, reception via 1edge or 2edge diffraction often works very well if the signal is not attenuated too "signficantly" by the terrain) - Which, BTW, is Similar to its prediction for my receive location for WCPO and the other Cincinnati stations(other than WCVN-DT which is signifcantly weaker), in fact.

Nitewatchman

10-22-07, 09:42 PM

To follow up, as I had Said I'd update this when I noticed a change in this ....

Just Noticed tonight (10/22) PMTs at PID 0x0050, 0x0070 and 0x0080 for KET3, 5+6 are gone again from WCVN-DT between 8pm~12am - and I get those long "hangs" with TSreader when it's trying to read those PMT's/increased amount of time before it gets to displaying the video decode thumbnails ....

I must admit, since It's been a while since we first saw the PMT's from WCVN-DT between 20:00~00:00, I've been checking it fairly regularly, but don't remember exactly when the last time was that I checked it between 8pm~12am(i've been using this capture card for DVR'ing during prime time as well and that's one reason I haven't checked it "every night"), at which time the PMTs at 0x0050, 0x0070 and 0x0080 were there --- I think I last checked it sometime in the last week or so ....

Attached zip file includes tsreader output file(filename ket1022.htm) from WCVN-DT capture from tonight at 21:22 EDT, as well as a tsreader html output file from Friday, 9/14 at 9:45pm EDT(filename ket0914.htm) - The first time we saw the PMT's present between 8pm~12am ...

Do note the "unknown usage" PID at 0x0911 is still there, I never saw it before 9/14/07 ....

jim tressler

10-23-07, 07:36 AM

Looks like WOIO in Cleveland went HD for local news.. this is a Raycom station.. so maybe there is hope for WXIX.. and then again.. maybe not!

http://www.tvpredictions.com/woio102207.htm

William Smith

10-23-07, 09:20 AM

911 has been there off and on for over a year... (DEAS)

Site technicians found the TSP that stamps the PSIP for WCVN was having a Microsoft Moment and needed to be "refreshed"....

WCVN and WCVN-DT may be down over the next few days to make changes in the AC power system.

blbrodbeck

10-23-07, 11:34 AM

Why No Sunday Night CBS HDTV?

Here's John Kiesewetter's take

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/tv/2007/10/why-no-sunday-night-cbs-hdtv.asp

......... Why can't ch. 12 just Tivo it?

Splicer010

10-23-07, 11:51 AM

What idiot decided NOT to join the program "already in progress"??? That is just plain idiotic...

mlbUC

10-23-07, 11:55 AM

Splicer, you have to know that the old people would get mad if they missed any of their 60 minutes :)

blbrodbeck

10-23-07, 12:14 PM

Doesn't Ch. 7 in Dayton have it in HD?

BDavidson1313

10-23-07, 01:23 PM

>> This might tell us something ---- What does your WCPO 9 *analog* reception look like with the antennas you've tried ? Was it "clear", or was it weak (snowy), or was there significant ghosting or signs of interference? ("squiggly lines", "static"/etc) <<<

I am using is a TERK VHF/UHF indoor antenna; this is connected to a DishNetwork HD receiver and to the back of my HD TV. The DishNetwork receiver meshes channels not apart of their system with subscription channels and of course the TV only has everything coming from the antenna.

So to know what is only coming from the antenna I am looking at the TV. Basically, I can get on the HD side 5.1, 12.1, 19.1 there are a bunch of PBS. I actually haven’t thought about the analog channels until you asked. Can not get a signal on 9; I do for 5, 12, 19, 22, 45, 48 at best I would say they are fair to poor.

>>>>.... Also, was the "indoor/outdoor" RCA antenna you said tried a VHF/UHF antenna or just a UHF antenna? <<<

To the test this past weekend, I picked up a RCA pre amped VHF / UHF inside or outside antenna. I first tried it in the house near the same location as the other antenna just for grins. No huge difference. Next, I mounted it up on the roof but not in an optimum location, basically not on the south side, the south side is the front of the house. The results were that I could pick up more station, (the list of found stations increased from 16 to 26) but not WCPO-DT, which is my ultimate goal. Although, if I could get a good signal from 22.1 which I believe is the Dayton ABC station, that would be a good thing too. Anyway I returned the antenna to the store.

I think I am going to take your advice >>>I would recommend a directional, small~medium sized VHF/UHF antenna of conventional design <<< and run some more test from there.

Thanks for all your help and I will reply to let you all know how it goes.

Bobby

Nitewatchman

10-23-07, 04:45 PM

Can not get a signal on 9; I do for 5, 12, 19, 22, 45, 48 at best I would say they are fair to poor.

You should really be getting an analog signal on 9 which is similar to what you see on 5+12. For instance, 9(and the digital on 10) +12 transmit from towers a couple blocks away from each other, using similar transmitting antenna hieghts, and ch 9/12 are fairly "close together" frequency wise. While a fairly "snowy" analog signal with some ghosting can=perfect DTV reception, the same issues that effect analog reception effect digital reception as well. For instance, if it's *very* ghosty, very weak(very "snowy"), or "full of interference" on WCPO analog channel 9, then chances are good the same issues may be effecting your digital reception on channel 10 ...

Keep in mind Many analog TV's will "blank" the screen when weak or interference laden(possibly even if extreme multipath is involved) signal is present on a given channel ... So, if you have one, you might want to try hooking antenna to a TV which doesn't do this+checking channel 9 for signs of interference/ghosting/etc , and for instance will show "snow" on a channel where there is no signal present(such as say, channel 60 in our area) ....

For instance, At the moment I can't recall if there is a FM station broadcasting from near fairfield other than the FM station(s) broadcasting from WSTR tower, or what you might have nearby "strong signal wise" on the police/paging bands that are "in between" ch 6/FM band and Channel 7 --- But, It's possible a very strong nearby FM signal could be overloading your tuner(generally that sort of thing is even more of a problem if you use a amplfier) +causing problems on say, channel 9 or 10 (or both), In which case you may need a FM trap, regardless of what antenna you end up with ..... FM interference(could be from a broadcast FM signal or narrowband FM signals used by Police/fire/etc) shows up as a herringbone pattern(diagonal "squiggly lines") when interfering with analog TV signals ...

I think I am going to take your advice >>>I would recommend a directional, small~medium sized VHF/UHF antenna of conventional design <<< and run some more test from there.

Thanks for all your help and I will reply to let you all know how it goes.

No problem, That's mostly what we're here for ...

Good choice IMO, and yes, do let us know how it turns out/what ends up working well ....

Splicer010

10-24-07, 08:28 AM

plughplover

10-24-07, 08:32 AM

Well, back to square one...:( 8PM no more WLWT untill midnight...:mad:

same here...

Splicer010

10-24-07, 08:51 AM

same here...

Damn good thing I put the antenna up a couple of months ago...;) Thursday night prime time and SNF is my main motivation for watching NBC during primetime...

mlbUC

10-24-07, 08:53 AM

At some point TWC should be forced to give refunds to their customers, as this problem has been going on for a long time. Just more reason to move on to D* or E*, I guess.

Splicer010

10-24-07, 09:03 AM

At some point TWC should be forced to give refunds to their customers, as this problem has been going on for a long time. Just more reason to move on to D* or E*, I guess.

No refund neccessary in my opinion...I am getting HD from them for free and not paying a penny more than if I didn't have a QAM tuner...:cool:

Neither D* nor E* can possibly compete with the services I receive from TWC for anywhere close to the same price...;)

Add my phone service into the mix (VONAGE :D) and I have a package deal that is unheard of in todays market...

William Smith

10-24-07, 09:27 AM

Even if I can figure out how to get the PMTs back during primetime it still wouldn't fix all your issues as you would get the same result if WCVN-DT were off the air.

Nitewatchman

10-24-07, 01:04 PM

Even if I can figure out how to get the PMTs back during primetime it still wouldn't fix all your issues as you would get the same result if WCVN-DT were off the air.

A Key point, IMO ...

I would think/point out that this issue as it seems to be affecting program stream selection issues regarding receiver design+effecting some receivers could potentially be a problem from *any* cable system and *any station* "going off air" on any given "QAM channel" where streams from multiple broadcast signals are in the TS Mux on that channel ..... Not just the WCVN-DT+WLWT-DT Mux on TW Cincinnati's system ....

Well, back to square one ....

I think We are much farther along than that, as I think we know *a lot* about what is going on with this issue .... which I think is a lot more than most folks often have to go on when these sorts of things occur ....

Hopefully the software desginers which implement channel selection/tuning issues for QAM "digital cable" receivers know about it as well ....

this problem has been going on for a long time.

Only for some receivers.

At present, The only ones we know of that are having this problem are Splicer010's 4th generation LG STB with QAM support, and plughplover's set with internal ATSC/QAM demod which has a LG chipset for ATSC/QAM.

That doesn't necessarily mean *all* equipment with LG chipsets that support QAM has the problem, nor does it mean it's necessarily "specific" only to equipment with LG chipsets. It may(personally I suspect it is) be specific to software desigined/ implemented on only some models of Sets/stb's/etc, or perhaps along the lines of specific to a certian "production run" of LG chipsets for some period of time, and hopefully its only "early versions" of that software implementation that is involved ....

Perhaps TW can implement something as a "workaround" fix, however -- For instance -- perhaps adding "service location descriptor" info in CVCT *might* do the trick, including for the inactive services --- *Might* being a key word, there, as we don't know if that would work or not yet ... But, I expect it may be unlikely for them to do so if relatively few receivers are effected ... TW isn't required to support user supplied "QAM tuners" regarding any "bugs" that might effect any given make/model of receiver or "digital cable ready" set ....

so, It may be the set/STB manufacturer for those devices having the problem that needs to provide the fix via a firmware/software update, but realistically, it may just be something that needs to be addressed in any "future" firmware/software implementation, and hopefully it already has been addressed ...

Although TW isn't necessarily passing through all the PSIP info the station sends(such as the service location descriptor info) - going from the TSreader info Plughplover has posted+what it says in the ATSC documents, such as what the ATSC documents says regarding PSIP requirements for cable ---- It looks like as it involves this issue, TW is sending the PSIP info(and for that matter the MPEG2 PSI info) they are required to send ... And note that cable systems with less than 750MHZ capacity aren't currently required to implement PSIP at all, so expect on other, smaller cable system where/if PSIP isn't present this issue for these receivers could be a problem as well -- for instance, including anytime a station goes off air and the cableco headend receives the station OTA regarding the streams from other stations mux'ed into the TS on any QAM 256 channel ....

Splicer010

10-24-07, 01:56 PM

Perhaps TW can implement something as a "workaround" fix Don't know that it is TWC who needs to implement anything as they are just repeating what they are given, but WCVN had the problem resolved (for the most part) until this week when things are being 'fixed'.

Originally Posted by William Smith
Even if I can figure out how to get the PMTs back during primetime it still wouldn't fix all your issues as you would get the same result if WCVN-DT were off the air.
Honestly the only issue I had left when WLWT was actually coming on in primetime was I still had no audio from WCVN, but that was consistent around the clock, and something I never considered to be a problem as I get my PBS from WCET (nothing personal, just that WCET is the PBS station I grew up with and support) and am quite satisfied with the content they provide.

I would appreciate it if you could ask the techs if they could put back in (or take back out) the one code that allowed WCVN and WLWT to be muxed together tat would be great (I know, easier said than done)...

William Smith

10-24-07, 02:17 PM

Nothing we do prevents WCVN-DT from being muxed with another station... the issue has to do with how the LG chipsets are handling the multiplex from TW cable. I have not had any reports of problems with the multiplex anywhere else nor has TW contacted me about any issues related to WCVN-DT.

As a result a I am very reluctant to make changes in the stream as they affect the signal statewide.

Your problem will still exist if WCVN-DT is off the air for any reason even if we can put the PMTs back in the stream during primetime. ( And yes I am considering how to do just that and not cause a crash to all the other services at the same time..)

As far as I know there is no issue with OTA reception and the LG chipset. (A lot of the schools in KY are using LG units to receive KET-ED off air).

Welcome to the world of no receiver standards....

Splicer010

10-24-07, 02:38 PM

Well I don't want you to do something (as if you would ;)) that would affect your other viewers just so we (I) here in Cinti can get WLWT...OTA reception there is no problem that I am aware of either, it all stems with being muxed on the TW system (though it is on 2 different headends, one of which used to be the Adelphia system out of Amelia) and it was working fabulously untill this week when WCVN started with the reprogramming...I honestly don't know why WLWT is so dependent on the WCVN stream as no other stations seem to exhibit that same dependency on other muxed channels...:confused: And I am 99.999999% sure that the same equipment is being used across the board by TWC to rebroadcast...

But I thankyou for your looking into this situation for me (and the others like plughplover) and racking your brain to getting this rectified...If indeed the PMTs missing are the cause...why were they taken out or put in??? Why wouldn't y'all have just left them alone since you were getting no complaints???:confused:

I really am not bitching but rather trying to understand...:)

William Smith

10-24-07, 04:16 PM

PMTs (Program Map Tables) are used to allow decoders to locate the components of the selected service and also to identify what the components are (video, MPEG-2 audio, AC-3 audio, interactive data, caption type,etc). When the streams for 3,5,and 6 shut down the PMTs for those streams disappear as well. The multiplexer takes them in and out every night as the services are added and dropped.

We had a piece of equipment at WCVN that continued to insert those tables even when there were none present this forced the system to drop packets to maintain the 19.39 Mbps and affected other services that are not carried on cable.

When the equipment was reset to restore normal operation the tables cleared during primetime.

The fact that the data in the tables wasn't following the feed ( loss of audio on WCVN during primetime) was a clue.

Normally every time feeds are multiplexed the PAT/PMTs are regenerated for that new stream( in the multiplexer) and only the elementary streams are passed through unchanged.

plughplover

10-24-07, 04:26 PM

No refund neccessary in my opinion...I am getting HD from them for free and not paying a penny more than if I didn't have a QAM tuner...
Not entirely correct; you simply aren't being charged an additional fee. The clear qam signals of the OTA DTV stations are required to be there (FCC), and are certainly figured into the price you pay.

The thing that annoys me, however, is what they are doing with the HD versions of 'standard cable' channels. EVERYTHING I've read, from multiple sources, indicates that a subscription to a given analog SD channel confers the 'right' to receive the HD version at no additional charge (terms of the contracts between programmers and cablecos). There was nothing 'questionable' about people getting TNT-HD when it was sent in the clear, since as a standard cable subscriber I was entitled to it.

However, there were two problems with the previous setup (ie some HD cable channels in the clear).

1) Given the frequency assignments of those HD feeds, they were not blocked by the traps placed onto the lines of "Basic cable" subscribers. Thus, a person with basic cable, whose subscription did not include analog TNT SD, was still able to get the HD signal. (Thus strictly speaking, TW would have to compensate the programmer for all those 'heads').

Now IMO the preferable 'fix' for this would have been to move those HD feeds to a frequency that _would_ be blocked by the 'Basic cable' line traps. Thus, 'Standard cable' subscribers whose subscription conferred the right to also get the HD signal could do so without needing a settop box, cablecard or whatever. IE, they could have left them as 'clear qam'.

Instead, they started encrypting those feeds. Thus we are forced to also pay for a cablecard or settop box. And they also make it very difficult to for people to get _just_ the box.

(Side note: looking back on it, I suspect the reason for the Very Attractive Deal they offered me was due to me being QUITE insistent that all I wanted was a box to allow me to watch EVERYTHING I was entitled to get AS A STANDARD CABLE SUBSCRIBER - no more, no less. They ended up offering me a MULTI-YEAR deal of Roadrunner Turbo + 'Digipic 1000' + 'HD Premium' for LESS than I had been paying for standard cable + RR.)

Getting back to the topic -

2) The other problem with their previous setup was bandwidth. The solution they've chosen is Switched Digital. This solution has all kinds of ramifications, like existing Cablecard 'v1' equipment / customers are S.O.L. (It looks to me a LOT like retaliation against the FCC's 'Seperable Security' mandate that went into effect earlier this year) The end result is we are back where we started - ie you need a cableco supplied box, even to just get the digital feeds you are already entitled to receive as a standard cable subscriber.

Is there an alternative? IMO, yes, but that would be a WAY off topic discussion. However, let me point out that TW is already simulcasting many (most? all?) of the analog 'standard cable' channels as (encrypted - grrr) SD digital feeds, and face it folks, all those analog cable signals are going to go away some day (just like OTA analog is going to go away) which will free up a lot of bandwidth...

In conclusion - the above is my personal interpretation of information from various sources, and should not be construed as verified facts regarding TW's motivations or plans.

plughplover

10-24-07, 04:49 PM

A Key point, IMO ...
I think we know *a lot* about what is going on with this issue .... which I think is a lot more than most folks often have to go on when these sorts of things occur ....

At present, The only ones we know of that are having this problem are Splicer010's 4th generation LG STB with QAM support, and plughplover's set with internal ATSC/QAM demod which has a LG chipset for ATSC/QAM.

And my Accessdtv card (and tsreader as well) also 'struggles' with it but don't simply give up...

That doesn't necessarily mean *all* equipment with LG chipsets that support QAM has the problem, nor does it mean it's necessarily "specific" only to equipment with LG chipsets. It may(personally I suspect it is) be specific to software desigined/ implemented on only some models of Sets/stb's/etc, or perhaps along the lines of specific to a certian "production run" of LG chipsets for some period of time, and hopefully its only "early versions" of that software implementation that is involved ....

It may be the set/STB manufacturer for those devices having the problem that needs to provide the fix via a firmware/software update, but realistically, it may just be something that needs to be addressed in any "future" firmware/software implementation, and hopefully it already has been addressed ...

FYI - I've "reactivated" the third prong of my attack on this - the manufacturer. A few months ago I pursued this with them, and the bottom line was a (third hand) comment to the effect that they'd heard some similar reports but had no firmware update. (I pointed out a 'big news' item out of Australia where LG was updating firmware for thousands of sets across a wide range of models there). I was asked to check back Nov 1 - but I just re-started the service call today, as I figured it was close enough.

We'll see what I hear back this time...

Splicer010

10-24-07, 05:30 PM

Not entirely correct; you simply aren't being charged an additional fee. The clear qam signals of the OTA DTV stations are required to be there (FCC), and are certainly figured into the price you pay.

No, not on cable they are not required (yet)...As long as the analog stations are available, the digital versions are more of a 'gift' if you will, at this stage of the game...

Analog cable is going nowhere for quite sometime as the deadline for OTA analog signals has no effect on what a cable system (which is (in theory) sealed) must do transmitting its signals...

Just because a cable co also simulcasts a SD channel in HD (digital) does not give one the 'right' to receive the HD (digital) programming for free. On the contrary, the additional digtal feed does in fact cost the cable co in addition to the SD feed, both in programming fees as well as equipment fees...

Nitewatchman

10-24-07, 05:42 PM

Don't know that it is TWC who needs to implement anything as they are just repeating what they are given

They don't quite just "repeat" everything WCVN-DT sends. In addition to what William has already posted about the PAT/PMT's, and the stuff WCVN sends OTA TW doesn't carry(such as the datacast stream) in order to mux the streams from two stations together, the TSID has to be changed, and Some of the PID's need to be renumbered.

Also, some of the PSIP info sent by TW is different than what WCVN-DT sends OTA per comparisons of plughplover's(QAM via TW) and my (OTA directly from WCVN-DT) TSreader HTML output files. For instance, "service location descriptior" info(which also provides info on the video/audio streams) sent in PSIP VCT(virtual channel table) which is sent by WCVN-DT OTA is not sent by TW in their VCT -- and, according to the ATSC PSIP docments, "service location descrptior" isn't *required* to be sent by cableco's .....

So, if the "QAM" implementation of program stream/channel selection ("tuning") works the "same way" on your LG STB via QAM as it does via OTA ATSC (and it *might* not -- there might be some differences - It might not support PSIP at all via QAM for example) .... It's also possible the "service location descriptor" info is doing the job for it OTA (so you aren't seeing the problem), but since it's not there in TW's VCT .....

Also, *If* your receiver *does* support PSIP on the "QAM side", the reason the PSIP channel remapping isn't working on your receiver *may* be because TW doesn't send the service location descriptor info in VCT. *Other* QAM receivers for which the channel remapping is working may be working because they don't rely on the service location descriptor info ....

OTA reception there is no problem that I am aware of either, it all stems with being muxed on the TW system (though it is on 2 different headends, one of which used to be the Adelphia system out of Amelia) and it was working fabulously untill this week when WCVN started with the reprogramming...I honestly don't know why WLWT is so dependent on the WCVN stream as no other stations seem to exhibit that same dependency on other muxed channels...

......

I really am not bitching but rather trying to understand...

If on those other "muxed channels"(streams from different broadcast stations muxed toghether into the same Transport stream on a QAM 256 channel) TW was to lose the signal (either via fiber or OTA depending upon how it's received), from just one station streams involved, expect it's very possible, perhaps even likely that you'd see the issue occur there as well ....

I hope you understand "enough" now after William's fine posts, as no offense, but we've already went over this all in great detail earlier in thread, and I don't know how it could be "reexplained" any better ...

And my Accessdtv card (and tsreader as well) also 'struggles' with it but don't simply give up...

FWIW, I've had two ATSC receivers which you can use w/o utlizing PSIP (as far as I can *tell*, I have no way of knowing for sure if they "look at" VCT info or not for instance, but there is nothing that indicates to the user they are) info, and have never had any problems with those decoding any of WCVN's Video/audio streams, including KET1, 2+4 between 8pm~12am .....

The Long "hangs" TSreader has between 8pm~12am when it's trying to read the KET3, 5,6 PMT's that "aren't there" is the only issue I've experienced with this ....

Nitewatchman

10-24-07, 05:59 PM

No, not on cable they are not required (yet)...As long as the analog stations are available, the digital versions are more of a 'gift' if you will, at this stage of the game...

There is no requirement whatsoever for *any* broadcaster signal(analog or digital) to be carried on cable unless the station *asks* for it.

Stations can achieve cable carriage/have cable carriage rights via rules specificed by FCC(LP stations don't have these cable carriage rights) in *two ways* -- 1). via *must carry* rules(which does require cable to carry those signals, where applicable, *IF* a station asks for it), or 2). via a retransmission consent agreement, which among other things, could involve the station requiring $ in order to allow cable to carry their signal.

What you are talking about is, a station with both analog/digital signals can't invoke "must carry" for their digital signals currently with their analog station's signal also being carried via cable ... Those few stations which are currently "digital only" stations can, however ....

Most digital broadcast stations(including HD) carried via cable currently are being carried via retransmission consent agreements, at least commercial stations .... I'm not 100% sure how it's "working" for the NCE stations .....

I believe what Plughplover is referring to involves FCC rules/requirements that the way *I* read them state all broadcast signals the cableco *does* carry *must* be available to all subscribers(unencrypted), even via the most "basic"/lifeline tier of service .... And yes, even though the "Rules" don't specifically meniton digital(they were developed before DTV/HD was around yet) say so, the "last word" we've heard on this, from a FCC Report and order on cable carriage of digital broadcast signals from 2001 (again the way *I* read it) the commission specified that the current rules on this do apply to all digital broadcast signals carried via cable - that includes those carried via retransmission consent agreements ....

HOWEVER, there has been much discussion of that on AVSforum regarding the "correct interpetation" of FCC rules/rulings regarding that matter, and, bottom line is, most cableco's carry the digital broadcast signals(including HD) as "in the clear QAM"/unencrypted, but apparently some do not, and apparently FCC is not enforcing it at present ....

I've posted the info/rules on this several times, including either here or in Dayton thread, there are also a couple of current threads discussing it in hardware area ....

Splicer010

10-24-07, 07:16 PM

I hope you understand "enough" now after William's fine posts, as no offense, but we've already went over this all in great detail earlier in thread, and I don't know how it could be "reexplained" any better ... No offense taken...While we have been thru this nothing was concrete (at least from what I read) as everything was a 'best guess' sort of thing...
If on those other "muxed channels"(streams from different broadcast stations muxed toghether into the same Transport stream on a QAM 256 channel) TW was to lose the signal (either via fiber or OTA depending upon how it's received), from just one station streams involved, expect it's very possible, perhaps even likely that you'd see the issue occur there as well ....
Nope...When WCET goes off air on Sunday nights, WXIX is unaffected...

HOWEVER, there has been much discussion of that on AVSforum regarding the "correct interpetation" of FCC rules/rulings regarding that matter, and, bottom line is, most cableco's carry the digital broadcast signals(including HD) as "in the clear QAM"/unencrypted, but apparently some do not, and apparently FCC is not enforcing it at present ....

I carry the digital signals but convert them to analog on my system...I must carry what is in my DMA...The only reason I chose to use ATSC signals is to save money in the long run and because I get better reception on the digital channels vs. the analog channels...Tho I do still have a couple of analog channels (out of Dayton) simply because the reception is not an issue on those channels...As long as I carry the DMA stations there is nothing the FCC can do to 'make' me carry any digital channels...

plughplover

10-24-07, 08:07 PM

Just because a cable co also simulcasts a SD channel in HD (digital) does not give one the 'right' to receive the HD (digital) programming for free. On the contrary, the additional digtal feed does in fact cost the cable co in addition to the SD feed, both in programming fees as well as equipment fees...

The 'right' I was referring to was the contract / agreement between programmers and cablecos. From various public sources, I've seen indications to this effect applied to TNT, Discovery, and ESPN. The ESPN info was fairly recent, and I concluded that those terms were at least partly why ESPN Classic was moved off the TW analog/standard tier. (And wrt bandwidth - that 6MHz slot is now occupied 24x7 with a static image)

Have not investigated the most recent TW HD additions, but as they are being classified in TW's "HD Standard" tier, which according to TW's channel guide Requires an HD television and an HD receiver plus a minimum of Standard service" I'm guessing the same terms apply there as well.

Analog cable is going nowhere for quite sometime as the deadline for OTA analog signals has no effect on what a cable system (which is (in theory) sealed) must do transmitting its signals

Agreed that OTA analog cut-off does not directly affect cable, but TW COULD decide to start an 'all digital migration' tomorrow if they wanted to reallocate their bandwidth badly enough. If some smart person showed a business plan that doubled/tripled profits after capital investment by doing so, do you think they would hesitate? And they have a window of opportunity with the OTA analog cutoff. They could advise people that as of such-and-such a date they'll need:

Analog capable tuners for Basic cable
'clear qam' capable tuners for Standard cable
Cablecard sets (or set top box) for premium cable.

Of course I'm over simplifying, but I'm sure you get my drift.

In fact, hasn't Comcast already started just this sort of digital transition?

Nitewatchman

10-24-07, 08:12 PM

...While we have been thru this nothing was concrete (at least from what I read) as everything was a 'best guess' sort of thing...

Not really. There was some speculation/"guessing" involved as we were playing detective and "working through" the issue and observing what "happens" when certian things changed --- but Much of it was very "concrete" information.

Much of it is also really quite detailed and involved, probably requires a pretty good understanding and some "studying" of various whitepapers from ATSC concerning details regarding ATSC, MPEG2, PSIP standards, and can't be understood/explained fully in any sort of short "simple way" --- and therefore probably not only difficult to "read through" and understand it all, but also understandably difficult to put "1+1" together ...

*in short* you really don't have to go through all that if you don't want, as the following is the *answer* (its not a guess) ..... :

the issue has to do with how the LG chipsets are handling the multiplex from TW cable.

Welcome to the world of no receiver standards....

Nope...When WCET goes off air on Sunday nights, WXIX is unaffected...

Thought they just went off air OTA - WCET/DT transmitter usually goes off air (OTA) about 3 nights a week between 1am~7am, but they feed TW a signal via fiber -- Does video/audio and all the MPEG2 PSI info also "disappear" from TW cable at those times?

of course, Suppose it's also possible TW could be doing something "different" for them(or other stations) vs. what they're doing with the WCVN/WLWT mux , such as generating the PMTs "exclusively" at TW "somehow" instead of them coming from CET ....

In any case, would probably need to see info from a TS analyzer such as TSreader when CET isn't sending a signal via fiber to TW to get a better idea of what may be happening there ....

I carry the digital signals but convert them to analog on my system...I must carry what is in my DMA...

I don't know what sort of "system" you are referring to, and how such rules apply to systems such as MATV systems, but everything I have read says cableco's must have permission from the broadcaster in order to legally carry the signals(analog or digital) , whether it be via must carry or restransmission consent ...

Network affilates, for instance, have the sole distribution rights within the market for the network programming, a cableco can't legally just put the signal on their system without the "ok" from the originating broadcaster .... A station invoking "must carry" can't ask for "$", but a station negotiating for carriage via retransmission consent can.

Of course, pretty much all stations (pretty much - including those w/o must carry rights such as LP stations) *want* to be carried on cable, so in a sense it's a bit of a "moot point", nevertheless I think it's important "factor" to understand regarding the way the cable carriage rules "work" ....

FCC has recently put together some "new" rules requiring cablecos to provide service to "analog cable" viewers through 2012 -- Via either downrezzing/converting to analog at the headend, or providing analog cable viewers with a digital to analog converter box ....

However, the current rules(and future I believe) in regards to how digital signals are carried for those with "digital" reception(including for those with HD displays/etc) equipment, FCC also has rules that say a cableco can't decide on their own to "downrez" a broadcasters digital signal they carry, such as say, converting a 1080i signal to 480i digital or analog and *only* carrying that on their system ... If a station asks for them to do that, they can however ...

As long as I carry the DMA stations there is nothing the FCC can do to 'make' me carry any digital channels...

Again digital stations with analog counterparts do not have must carry rights until analog is gone in feb 2009, after that, when the analog station is gone they do and, where applicable(a station has to provide a signal of sufficent strength at the cable head end that serves specific communties involved in order to qualify for must carry rights), the FCC's Must carry rules *can* and do apply to cable being required to carry digital signals of stations that *invoke* must carry ....

The rules Plughplover was referring to involve Digital signals that *are* carried by any given cableco's digital cable system being required to be carried and available "in the clear QAM" so they are available to all subscribers (including on the most basic tier of service) .... Regardless of whether the signals are carried via must carry or retransmision consent(again, there is disagreement on the exact "interpation of those rules, and again, it appears at this point FCC isn't enforcing it) ... They aren't required to provide the equipment necessary to decode those signals however ....

William Smith

10-24-07, 08:13 PM

WCET feeds TW via fiber so its not a fair comparison.

Splicer010

10-24-07, 09:54 PM

WCET feeds TW via fiber so its not a fair comparison.

Still WCET goes off air (channel goes dark) on Sunday nights and WXIX is not affected...

So what the issue here is TW fixed the WLWT situation then for no reason screwed it up again at just the same time WCVN decided to reprogram and this is all TW fault???

As for what system I am talking about, I am part owner of the CATV system in a small town here in SW Ohio...I have to have retransmission agreements for each and every station I carry on my system and negotiated many of the current contracts to carry said stations...

Network affilates, for instance, have the sole distribution rights within the market for the network programming, a cableco can't legally just put the signal on their system without the "ok" from the originating broadcaster .... A station invoking "must carry" can't ask for "$", but a station negotiating for carriage via retransmission consent can.

I know ;)...

FCC has recently put together some "new" rules requiring cablecos to provide service to "analog cable" viewers through 2012 -- Via either downrezzing/converting to analog at the headend, or providing analog cable viewers with a digital to analog converter box ....

Thus what I was trying to say:
The only reason I chose to use ATSC signals is to save money in the long run and because I get better reception on the digital channels vs. the analog channels...

However, the current rules(and future I believe) in regards to how digital signals are carried for those with "digital" reception(including for those with HD displays/etc) equipment, FCC also has rules that say a cableco can't decide on their own to "downrez" a broadcasters digital signal they carry, such as say, converting a 1080i signal to 480i digital or analog and *only* carrying that on their system ...
Yes I can...and do...legally...I downconvert my signals to 480p then send them out as 480i analog...;)

Regardless of whether the signals are carried via must carry or retransmision consent(again, there is disagreement on the exact "interpation of those rules, and again, it appears at this point FCC isn't enforcing it) ... They aren't required to provide the equipment necessary to decode those signals however ....

No disagreement here...EVERY station that I retransmit MUST have a retransmission agreement, no if's, and's or but's about it...I am not required (again, at this time) to transmit digital programming in a digital format...Matter of fact I am not sure that ANY cable co is 'required' to do so...I have been changing over analog stations to digital now for over a year in several cable systems and have other cable co's doing the same literally across the country...and each one of those conversions are digital being "down rezzed" to 480i...legally...

I'm telling you Jeff, no offense, but cable co's just are not subject to the same rules as OTA or even Satellite...

Nitewatchman

10-25-07, 12:46 AM

Still WCET goes off air (channel goes dark) on Sunday nights and WXIX is not affected...

"Channel goes dark" isn't a sufficent explanation. We need to know what happens to the TW mux during that time on that channel, especially specifics regarding what happens to MPEG2 PSI(and PID's/etc) as well as PSIP info.

Also, again, they feed TW via fiber, and I wasn't aware CET services went "dark" on cable at any time, as even their website schedule shows programming on *all* their programming services, every night, all night, 24/7 in fact ....

The OTA transmitter however usually goes off air between 1am~6am 3 or 4 nights a week ...

So what the issue here is TW fixed the WLWT situation then for no reason screwed it up again at just the same time WCVN decided to reprogram and this is all TW fault???

????? I don't understand these comments ?????? Did you not read or understand *anything* William posted ????

I will say this, No one said it was "TW's Fault" ... Maybe it is, but the evidence we've seen/collected so far seems to suggest it isn't, at least to the extent of what they are "required" to do ..... Even if it isn't "their fault" They may be able to do something, but Other receiver's handle what they're doing regarding their WCVN/WLWT Mux just fine, Your receiver isn't.

I'll try another example regarding a "different" issue, maybe that will help ...

It is not WKEF-DT's fault that if they turn "repeat field detection" on on their Harmonic encoder, then my ZenithHDV420 (LG chipset) will "drop frames" during video sourced from film (or 24p HD sources) because it isn't drawing the repeated frames properly, but other decoders I own work just fine with it .... Nevertheless, they turn "repeat field detection" off on their encoder so that I, and others that have decoders which have the same issues don't get the "choppy" video ...

I have to have retransmission agreements for each and every station I carry on my system ....

Most definitely ...

Yes I can...and do...legally...I downconvert my signals to 480p then send them out as 480i analog...

*Please* read more carefully .... I said (I'm going to put this in bold since you obviously didn't read it when it wasn't) :

However, the current rules(and future I believe) in regards to how digital signals are carried for those with "digital" reception(including for those with HD displays/etc) equipment , FCC also has rules that say a cableco can't decide on their own to "downrez" a broadcasters digital signal they carry, such as say, converting a 1080i signal to 480i digital or analog and *only* carrying that on their system ...

I was *specifically* reffering to *digital* cable service ... For the digital signals *carried* AS digital, and provided as a "digital cable service" to subscribers ...... AS IN NOT having anything to do with analog service such as you are providing ....

I'm telling you Jeff, no offense, but cable co's just are not subject to the same rules as OTA or even Satellite...

I know that. I have read/studied through many of those rules that apply to cable carriage of broadcast signals, as well as various FCC reports and orders and other info regarding the must-carry+retransmisison consent rules, as well as FCC R&O's on cable carriage obligations for digital broadcast signals. I really don't have time right now to specifically "address" all of your comments in your post and point you to each and every "rule" involved but follows is some "info" for you ....

Most of the rules that apply to cable can currently be found in CFR title 47, part 76 "Multichannel video and cable Television service" rules which are available currently here : (note, in 2008 the 2008 "version" of the rules when available will "change" the part of the URL that is "2007" to 2008" etc) ...

http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2007/76/

Most of the FCC rules for broadcast services are in Part 73, "Radio broadcast services" available here :

http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2007/73/

The "index" from that site of all 2007 FCC rules is available here :

http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2007/

Here's CFR 47 $ 76.640, it contains some of the rules that applies "specifically" to digital cable service :

http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2007/76/640/

here's a few that(in whole or in part) apply to *analog* and *digital* broadcast signals, carried on cable, including as "analog" *or* digital signals :

http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2007/76/630/

http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2007/76/56/

http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2007/76/901/

Here is text of FCC's 2001 Report and order on cable carriage of digital broadcast signals :

http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Cable/Orders/2001/fcc01022.pdf

Seems like you are going to want to read a lot of that one(the R&O section, probably not the NPRM stuff), but regarding what I'm talking about Pay close attenition to paragraph 102, where it says :

"102. In the context of analog must carry, it has been the Commission’s view that the Act contemplates there be one basic service tier. We believe that in the context of the new digital carriage requirements, it is consistent with the statutory language to require that a broadcaster's digital signal must be available on a basic tier such that all broadcast signals are available to all cable subscribers at the lowest priced tier of service, as Congress envisioned." ....

---------------

The rules recently approved by FCC to require cablecos to convert digital broadcast signals to analog until 2012 are not yet available in CFR or FCC report and order AFAIK(I didn't spend much time looking for them - I did find the NPRM), but here's some info on them :

http://www.tvpredictions.com/fcc091207.htm

Nitewatchman

10-25-07, 02:55 AM

To put this another way To address what *you* are reffering to rather than what Plughplover+I are referring to regarding digital broadcast signals that *are* carried by cable (I didn't say the digital broadcast signals themselves are *currently* required to be carried by cable), as this is an *interesting* subject I think ....

Yes I can...and do...legally...I downconvert my signals to 480p then send them out as 480i analog...

Certianly, but only *if* the broadcaster asks for that/allows it is that is fine with the FCC per current rules, and in the "future"(after analog shut off+when the new rules on the analog "conversion" go into effect - they haven't yet) you'll be required to do that until at least 2012, but that doesn't necessarily mean you won't also be "required" to carry the digital signals *as digital" as well ...

I am curious however, how are you handling the AR changes of the content from broadcasters program services you carry which are "delivered" in a 16x9 (HD) format?

Do you just do a 4x3 "center cut" for everything? If so, do they(the stations and the viewers) "like that", as some content is "inherently" 16x9 (ER for example) and is and "shot for 16x9" and even when it isn't 'inheriently" so, things such as portion of CBS "bug" on CBS HD feed would get "cut off" ...

Seems to me in order to "do it right" you would need proper AFD implementation, and for 16x9 content "letterbox it", and for 4x3 material(or 16x9 material that was produced with a "4x3 safe area") only do a "center cut" ...

there is nothing the FCC can do to 'make' me carry any digital channels...

Interesting .... Are you sure about that? ....

Here's a bit from Paragraph 73 and 74 of the "material degradation" sectionof FCC R&O on cable carriage of digital broadcast signals from 2001 which I provided a link to earlier ...

[portions from paragraph 73].....Consequently, in the context of mandatory carriage of digital broadcast signals, a cable operator may not provide a digital broadcast signal in a lesser format or lower resolution than that afforded to any digital programmer (e.g., non-broadcast cable programming,
other broadcast digital program, etc.) carried on the cable system, provided, however, that a broadcast signal delivered in HDTV must be carried in HDTV..........

[portions from paragraph 74].....We also find that for purposes of supporting the ultimate conversion to digital signals and facilitating the return of the analog spectrum, a television station may demand that one of its HDTV or SDTV television signals be carried on the cable system for delivery to subscribers in an analog format...........

..... As the transition moves forward, television broadcast stations will be required to deliver their signals in digital format and cable
operators will be required to carry them in digital format, as discussed above. .....

As for the "newest" rules from FCC on cable carriage of digital broadcast signals, adopted by FCC on 9/11/2007 -- The Report and order and rule changes involved aren't "available" yet, but here's the news release :

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-276576A1.pdf

A couple of quotes from that news release follow ....

... "By statute, cable operators must make local broadcasters’ primary video and program-related material viewable by all of their subscribers.The FCC’s ruling today allows cable operators to comply with the viewability requirement by choosing to either: (1) carry the digital signal in analog format, or (2) carry the signal only in digital format, provided that all subscribers have the
necessary equipment to view the broadcast content. The viewability requirements extend to February 2012 with the Commission committing to review them during the last year of this period in light of the state of technology and the marketplace." .......

.......... While the item provides cable operators with flexibility, the FCC reaffirmed the requirement that cable systems must carry high definition (“HD”) broadcast signals in HD format and reaffirmed its current material degradation standard ........."

I think That pretty much says cableco's can choose to either downrez to analog at the headend *or* provide analog cable viewers with a digital to analog converter box -- BUT ALSO, if the conversion to analog is done at headend, it also seem to me, perhaps unless the broadcaster involved "asks" for it/allows it(as is the case currently) to ALSO require that digital broadcast signals are carried "as digital"(including HD "as HD") on the cable system as well ... In other, shorter words, a "dual" analog+digital carriage requirement ...

It certianly seems to me that if it's "OK with the broadcaster" involved(although can't really imagine why it would be OK to them in the long term), I personally don't have/see any issues with only SD analog service being provided via cable ... But, I'm not the FCC, and at some point, certianly I think it's likely at some point all cable will be "all digital", probably well after analog is long gone for OTA ... .... Heck, at some point, manufactuers may even *stop* putting NTSC analog tuners in sets, then there's the issue of whether or not analog signals are 'available' to "all subscribers of a cable system" ....

Splicer010

10-25-07, 07:25 AM

Thanks for the links...When I have some time I plan to look over them...I don't have alot of time to address all your questions other than what i have already said about the way we operate 'at this time' or 'at this stage of the game'...

And quickly, the other main concern you have about the AR, my ATSC units do a fine job converting 16:9 material to 4:3 and I have not (as yet) had any real complaints. Though I am sure that wanting AR correct programming will become more desireable to my customers as time goes by and 16:9 televisions are purchased...But for the time being the conversion is satisfactory and still provides a substantial increase in PQ over the channels analog counterpart...

plughplover

10-25-07, 07:45 AM

So is it confirmed that WCET's digital cable signal shuts down on a regular basis?

BTW, WLWT-DT's signal is also fed to TW by fiber, not OTA.

William Smith

10-25-07, 10:04 AM

I suspect they are dropping programming but not the MPEG stream itself as that would alarm a lot of gear... I don't know personally but anyone on cable with TS reader can analyze a capture and tell us whats really happening..

chrisirmo

10-25-07, 10:07 AM

According to the ABC college football regional coverage maps (http://assets.espn.go.com/espntv/topics/coveragemaps/102707ABCCFB330pm.jpg), OTA viewers will be getting a bonus football game from Dayton at 3:30 on Saturday.

WCPO: #10 South Florida at #23 Connecticut (HD)
WKEF: Nebraska at #19 Texas (Not HD)

Nitewatchman

10-25-07, 11:22 AM

I don't have alot of time to address all your questions

You already answered my one question. The other statements with question marks in my posts were mostly "rhetorical" questions, they don't require a reply.

.... the other main concern you have about the AR,

I'm not "concerned" about it at all, as I am not one of your subscribers, nor does any cableco serve my rural location, nor do I care that it doesn't.

I was just curious.

William Smith

10-25-07, 12:29 PM

Splicer,

Is your system in Lawrenceburg IN. by chance?

Nitewatchman

10-25-07, 04:02 PM

More fun with TSreader ...

Was reading through this post :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11928379#post11928379

and this one:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11944969#post11944969

And thought it might be interesting to check and see which stations in area are currently sending rc_descriptor ("broadcast flag"/ATSC redistribution control descriptor) in our area in their PMTs ...

Checked all 15 current Cincinnati/Dayton digital stations this afternoon --- here are the ones which have "rc_descriptor" in their PMTs :

WKRC-DT (in PMTs for both 12.1 and 12.2) :

Descriptor: ATSC Redistribution Control Descriptor
ff

WCET-DT (In PMTs for both 48.1 and 48.2) :

Descriptor: ATSC Redistribution Control Descriptor
ff

---------

That's it ... didn't look it up, but Assume it's set for "unlimited copy" --- None of the Dayton stations have it ...

I didn't check the fox HD feed via the splicer from WRGT-DT/WXIX-DT, since It's not active, currently, but assume the rc_descriptor is there per ron's post at link above ...

William Smith

10-25-07, 04:16 PM

The great Broadcast Flag... I have it turned off here as it can kill older Samsung decoders..

The fun part is that if its not on when it should be the station is liable. If its on when it shouldn't be thats OK.. Someone somewhere assumes that stations will flip in on and off as needed..my bet is once its required it will be locked on and left on.. causing major headaches for people who archive video.

dc10forlife

10-25-07, 08:38 PM

\I thought I would highlight the college football games available OTA vs. cable vs. sat (D* or E*) in HD this weekend (Thurs. through Sunday).

OTA: 4
Cable (Time Warner): 9
D*: 15
E*: 14 (w/ antenna)

Here are the games:

10/25

Boston College at Virginia Tech - ESPNHD (TWC, E*, D*)

10/26

Boise St. at Fresno St. - ESPNHD (TWC, E*, D*)

10/27

W. Virginia at Rutgers - ESPN on ABC HD (OTA, TWC, E*, D*)
Michigan State at Iowa - ESPN2HD (TWC, E*, D*)
Indiana at Wisconsin - BTNHD (E*, D*)
Northwestern at Purdue - BTNHD (E*, D*) (now available in HD on D*)
Ball St. at Illinois - BTNHD (E*, D*) (available in HD on D*)
USC at Oregon - FSNHD (D*, E*)
Georgia vs. Florida - CBSHD (OTA, TWC, E*, D*)
USF at UCONN - ESPN on ABC (OTA, TWC, E*, D*)
Kansas at Texas A&M - ESPN2HD (TWC, E*, D*)
S. Carolina at Tenn - ESPNHD (TWC, E*, D*)
Ohio St. at Penn St. - ESPN on ABC (OTA, TWC, E*, D*)
Cal at Arizona St. - FSNHD (TWC, E*, D*)

10/28
UCF at S. Mississippi - ESPNHD (TWC, E*, D*)

Other SD games of interest:

Pitt at Louisville - ESPN+ (OTA - 12.2, 45.1, TWC, D*)
Miss. St. at Kentucky - Lincoln Financial Network (OTA - 64.1, 26.1, TWC, D*)
Arizona at Washington - FSN Northwest (D*, TWC - FCS Pacific)
Minnesota at Michigan - ESPNClassic (TWC, D*, E*)
Youngstown St. at N. Iowa - Gateway Football Conference Network (TWC - FCS Atlantic)
Ohio at Bowling Green - GTN51 (OTA if you can get it, ESPN Gameplan)

Edit: The Miami at Vanderbilt game will not be televised
Edit2: D* will have all BTN feeds in HD http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=106550
Edit 3 Bengals are in HD this wekend.
Edit 4: E* has USC at Oregon