Cincinnati, OH - HDTV [Text View] - Page 35

Nitewatchman

11-02-07, 04:39 PM

The thread seems pretty "dead" currently, so follows are some info on Couple of things brought up earlier I thought this would be a good oppurtunity to follow up on ...

Part I - Cable carriage of digital broadcast signals ...

there is nothing the FCC can do to 'make' me carry any digital channels...

Still no R&O (or the rule changes contained within it) available to public yet for the new cable carriage rules for digital broadcast signals(rules adopted by FCC on 9/11/07), but I just ran across this article you might also want to read, as it addresses some of what those rules are going to involve :

Tvtechnology article -- New Rules Hurt Small Cable Most (http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0082/t.8838.html)

To state the obvious Feb 17, 2009 (analog shut off for full service stations) is *only* a little more than 15 Months away ....

------------------------------------------------

Part II - More Matarese DTV/HD inaccuracies

Regarding this Matarese "HD 101" story, transcript available here :
Convert your Old TV (http://www.wcpo.com/content/news/localshows/dontwasteyourmoney/story.aspx?content_id=a853c4d2-c723-4486-95a9-9ec9a11519cd)

Involving this portion of it:

"The government will offer families who don't have cable or satellite vouchers for a free converter box. However, if you have cable, you're not eligible. Details beyond that, however, remain fuzzy, and we won't know exactly how to apply for a box until after January 1st, 2008. "

According to the "final rules" for The DTV converter box coupon program(which were released in March 2007+made available on NTIA website) -- During an "initial period" of them taking requests for the coupons (which begins Jan 1, 2008) *ALL* U.S. Households are eligible for the coupons, including those with cable+satellite service until such point $890 Million worth of coupons are distributed+redeemed ....

If they end up spending the $890 Million, then up to an additional $510 Million in "contingent funds" may be allocated, and during the "contingent period", if there is one, THEN and only then is the coupon eligibility is limited to OTA only households .... i.e. those consumers who make coupon requests who "certify" they don't have subscriptions to cable, satellite or other Pay TV service ...

Here are the full rules on the DTV converter box coupon program (http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/frnotices/2007/DTVFinalRule_2a.htm).

Specifically, portion of paragraph 8 and paragraph 9 in it's entirety from the "Eligable U.S. Households Section of the rules" follows :

.... NTIA has decided not to initially limit household eligibility in the Coupon Program to households reliant exclusively on over-the-air broadcasts for television service. [B] Accordingly, the Final Rule permits coupons to be distributed initially to all U.S. households. .......

9. Recognizing that funds allocated for this program are limited and the possibility that over-the-air reliant television households may lose television service as a result of this decision, NTIA will permit open eligibility on a first-come, first-served basis while the Initial Funds are available (i.e., until coupons valuing $890,000,000 have been redeemed and issued but not expired, in accordance with Section 3005(c)(2)(B) of the Act). [ 27 ] The Act permits funding of the program to increase by $510,000,000 to a total of $1,500,000,000 upon certification to Congress that the initial allocated amount of $990,000,000, the Initial Funds, is insufficient to fulfill coupon requests. [ 28 ] If such Contingent Funds are available for the Coupon Program, the eligibility for those coupons provided from Contingent Funds will be limited to over-the-air-only television households (Contingent Period). Consumers requesting those coupons during the Contingent Period must certify to NTIA that they do not subscribe to a cable, satellite, or other pay televison service. NTIA makes this decision balancing the demand uncertainty and funding limitations with the need to prioritize contingency funds for over-the-air reliant households which will lose total access to television broadcasts after the transition date.

Then, there is also the part of matareses's story that said .... "details beyond that, however remain fuzzy and we won't know exactly how to apply for a box unitl after january 1st, 2008" ...

Although there certianly are still some "fuzzy" things about it probably of concern to those *implementing* the program, The details involved as they "effect" the consumer, and effect how the consumer will "request" their converter box coupons and redeem them at retailers/etc, aren't "fuzzy", most of the details are(and have been for at least 6 months) spelled out in quite a bit of detail at this NTIA "DTV converter cooupon info" website (http://www.ntia.doc.gov/dtvcoupon/index.html) ...

They even provide the phone number to call between Jan 1, 2008 and March 31, 2009 to request your coupons in the FAQ (question #4) :

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/dtvcoupon/faq.html

Here is Q&A # 4 and 5 from that document :

4. How can I request my coupons?
Requests will be taken beginning January 1, 2008, and going through March 31, 2009, by calling 1-888-388-2009. Check back to this website during that period of time to find out convenient ways to request your coupons, including calling a toll-free number.

5. How do I know whether I'm eligible for a coupon?
All households in the United States and its territories are eligible for coupons on a first-come-first-served basis.

Splicer010

11-02-07, 05:29 PM

Part I - Cable carriage of digital broadcast signals ...

Still no R&O (or the rule changes contained within it) available to public yet for the new cable carriage rules for digital broadcast signals(rules adopted by FCC on 9/11/07), but I just ran across this article you might also want to read, as it addresses some of what those rules are going to involve :

Tvtechnology article -- New Rules Hurt Small Cable Most (http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0082/t.8838.html)

To state the obvious Feb 17, 2009 (analog shut off for full service stations) is *only* a little more than 15 Months away ....

Thanks for the link...Interesting...:)

But it really doesn't state anything different than what we were discussing about down converting...Now the part about HD must carry/transmit is an issue that really has yet to be fully disclosed...While that may be a possibility, as I was saying earlier, it is a non issue at this stage of the game...Tho I am in fact, at this point, broadcasting downconverting HD programming...Once the analog gets shut off then the only issue will be do I have to send BOTH a down converted analog signal AND the normal HD signal...And even if i do have to send both, in my system anyway, it really won't cause to much of a bandwidth issue as much as the cost of equipment will be the real issue...

Nitewatchman

11-02-07, 06:06 PM

But it really doesn't state anything different .....

It doesn't say anything different than the info I had already posted about this issue earlier. It is one of the best articles on what the new rules will be I've seen so far, that's why I posted it ...

bearcatscott

11-03-07, 04:13 PM

Why isn't WCPO showing the UC game in HD? It would have been in HD on ESPN so I know it is being broadcast in HD.

Bubster

11-03-07, 06:09 PM

Why isn't WCPO showing the UC game in HD? It would have been in HD on ESPN so I know it is being broadcast in HD.

How do you know this? I thought I saw it was originally airing on ESPN360 which is NOT HD.

bearcatscott

11-03-07, 06:13 PM

The game was listed on ESPN and when 3:30 came, ESPN put a notice up that said this game is not available in your area (Dish network). I guess it doesn't have to be in HD even if it is on ESPNHD.

Bubster

11-04-07, 10:33 AM

Ugh, looks like no HD for the Bungles game today:
http://www.sportsline.com/cbssports/schedules/page/nfl

The Pats/Colts game @4pm should be very interesting though.

blbrodbeck

11-04-07, 04:22 PM

I'd be surprised if the Bengals are in HD again this year. Only way is if the game means something to their opponent.

Splicer010

11-04-07, 10:14 PM

Bengals suck...Hope Chad will be alright though...

jim tressler

11-04-07, 10:39 PM

all I can say is.. go Browns..

looks like CJ 85 will be ok..

" The Bengals (2-6) not only lost for the sixth time in seven games, they also might have lost Chad Johnson. The colorful wide receiver was carted off the field on a stretcher with 2 minutes left and then transported to a Buffalo-area hospital as a precaution after complaining of neck pain.

Johnson rejoined the team in time for its flight home to Cincinnati after tests came back normal, Bengals spokesman Jack Brennan said.

Coach Marvin Lewis said Johnson never lost consciousness and had movement in all extremities. "

Splicer010

11-05-07, 12:19 AM

No excuse for dropping the ball earlier then...

Glad he isn't badly hurt...

jimp2244

11-05-07, 08:45 AM

I'd be surprised if the Bengals are in HD again this year. Only way is if the game means something to their opponent.

Bengals are in HD next week vs. Baltimore, and the following week vs. Cardinals (FOX).

jdhughes63

11-06-07, 10:04 AM

blbrodbeck

11-06-07, 10:46 AM

Is there a place on this forum that address's adjustments of an HD set? Some say it is complex and you will get a better picture if it is adjusted properly.

Are there any instructions anywhere on the forum or any recommendations for a DVD to rent or purchase?

There are individual Forums for most popular models of HDTVs that usually address these issues. I suggest searching AVS Forum for your make & model.

Splicer010

11-06-07, 10:50 AM

Is there a place on this forum that address's adjustments of an HD set? Some say it is complex and you will get a better picture if it is adjusted properly.

Are there any instructions anywhere on the forum or any recommendations for a DVD to rent or purchase?

Digital Video Essentials (DVE) or Avia (both DVD's) is a good start...There is now a HD-DVD Digital Video Essentials also out...:)

plughplover

11-08-07, 05:04 PM

Not making much progress with LG so far re: TWC WLWT/KET mux issue, but in the process discovered they have recently issued a firmware update for a completely unrelated tweak - http://us.lgservice.com/vchip_html/v_chip.html (which is kind of interesting; a new v-chip system coming??)

Toying with the idea of requesting the update on the off chance it will include a newer version of the rest of the firmware and perhaps address the mux problem...

Nitewatchman

11-08-07, 08:48 PM

^ Plughplover, Wonder if it's for this :

http://www.reuters.com/article/industryNews/idUSN0223366920070803

BTW, interestingly enough just ran across this good, but relatively "short' article(would have been nice if they had included info on the PSIP requirements for cable as well) yesterday on PSIP+V-chip, including how V-chip works with PSIP and 708(digital) or 608(analog via XDS) captions here :

http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0064/t.9560.html

plughplover

11-09-07, 07:53 AM

^ Plughplover, Wonder if it's for this :

http://www.reuters.com/article/industryNews/idUSN0223366920070803
Don't know... If you follow my link further down, they show menu image of set with option installed, labeled "Downloadable Rating"

BTW, interestingly enough just ran across this good, but relatively "short' article(would have been nice if they had included info on the PSIP requirements for cable as well) yesterday on PSIP+V-chip, including how V-chip works with PSIP and 708(digital) or 608(analog via XDS) captions here :

http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0064/t.9560.html
Seems they did elude to 'cable requirements' -- " since PSIP can be filtered off by cable providers."

jimp2244

11-09-07, 10:19 AM

We will get a total of 5 NFL games this week, all in HD. OTA-only viewers will get 4 games. Cable-only viewers will get 5 games (will get MNF game). FOX has the double-header this week.

Sunday Day Games:

1pm FOX (19 WXIX, 45 WRGT) Minnesota at Green Bay
Dick Stockton, Brian Baldinger

4pm FOX (19 WXIX, 45 WRGT) Dallas at NY Giants
Joe Buck, Troy Aikman

4pm CBS (12 WKRC, 7 WHIO) Cincinnati at Baltimore
Dick Enberg, Randy Cross

Sunday Night Football:

8:15pm NBC (5 WLWT, 2 WDTN) – Indianapolis at San Diego
Al Michaels, John Madden, Andrea Kramer

Monday Night Football:

8:30pm ESPN – San Francisco at Seattle+
Mike Tirico, Ron Jaworski, Tony Kornheiser, Michele Tafoya, Suzy Kolber

+Cable Only

Notes: Second game of FOX doubleheader is not blacked out on WXIX because the Bengals game on CBS at that time is an away game. As enticing as the Cleveland/Pittsburgh game looks, those of us around here will need Sunday Ticket or the help of a sports bar to catch that game, unless you're lucky enough to be able to pull in WBNS Columbus.

As always, let me know if any information is incorrect or needs to be updated.

Splicer010

11-09-07, 11:09 AM

When the hell will we get to see some Bears games??? We always get Green Bay (not complaining much) but it would be great to see the Bears play sometimes...

Sea Ray

11-09-07, 12:51 PM

When the hell will we get to see some Bears games??? We always get Green Bay (not complaining much) but it would be great to see the Bears play sometimes...

Last year was your year to enjoy the Bears. This year its back to the good ol' days of Bears football ...see Evans, Vince.:)

jimp2244

11-09-07, 12:56 PM

When the hell will we get to see some Bears games??? We always get Green Bay (not complaining much) but it would be great to see the Bears play sometimes...Two weeks ago the Bears were on FOX 45 WRGT... In week 1 they were on WXIX and WRGT. They've also been on SNF twice.

jim tressler

11-09-07, 02:04 PM

I am surprised WHIO is not showing the Browns / Steelers as they usually do when the Bengals are not on at the same time.

jimp2244

11-09-07, 02:15 PM

I am surprised WHIO is not showing the Browns / Steelers as they usually do when the Bengals are not on at the same time.If WHIO wants to show the Bengals, they can't show the Browns/Steelers because FOX has the doubleheader this week. Actually I think WHIO may even be required to show the Bengals as they're a secondary market, but if if that were/is not true, they would want to cater to their viewers. Although there are a fair number of Browns and Steelers fans in the Dayton area (lived there for 4 years myself), it's not enough to offset the Bengals base. That said, I wouldn't mind getting an extra NFL game on Sunday...

mlbUC

11-09-07, 02:30 PM

WHIO doesn't have the double header this week.

Nitewatchman

11-09-07, 02:50 PM

Don't know... If you follow my link further down, they show menu image of set with option installed, labeled "Downloadable Rating"

hmm, well maybe they're reffering to something involving " V-chip 2.0" stuff(I did some looking around and couldn't find anything "new" on that which has happened recently) :

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2704,1930599,00.asp

Seems they did elude to 'cable requirements' -- " since PSIP can be filtered off by cable providers."

Yes, I noticied that. I meant the specific PSIP requirements for cable we've discussed previously. Such as #1) the FCC rules that specify cablecos with 750MHZ capacity or more must provide PSIP for digital broadcast signals they carry .As specified in CFR 47, sec. 76.640 (iv) (A-E)/etc (http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2007/76/640/ ), and #2). as per those rules the specifics provided in the ATSC A 65 documents that specify exactly what PSIP info cable must provide/what they don't have to provide(such as 'service location descriptor') ...

----------------------

Anyway, on another note recent discussion on Dayton thread has me wondering :

Regarding Dayton broadcast signals which are carried on Some cable systems within Cincinnati DMA (or conversely, Cincinnati signals via Dayton cable systems) ---- When the analog stations are gone, and those systems are carrying those signals via QAM digital ---- When the out of market network affilate is "blacked out" on the cable system due to network program exclusivity issues(as the in market affilate has the sole distribution rights to network programming within the market) --- I wonder how cableco will handle that, and if it will cause problems with this current "bug" with the LG chipsets .... For instance, specifically involving the "PMTs" during those 'blackout periods" Will they just drop the elementary streams, and leave the "PMTS" as being "sent" by the "station", or will they drop the PMTS as well, and/or generate their own PMT's or "do something else" if they provide "alternate programming" on that stream/channel # during the "blackout" ....

jimp2244

11-12-07, 08:17 AM

I know we've talked about this in the past, so thought I'd post about what I noticed last week (a bit surprised no one else has mentioned this). When WCPO-DT was showing election results at the bottom of the screen, they were doing this in HD, and had shrunk the HD picture, keeping the aspect ratio. This was very impressive as in the past many local stations "squeeze" the picture causing distortion. Not to mention WCPO was able to do all of this keeping the picture HD and the election results in HD as well. This is probably something we can look forward to again during snow closings. If I get a chance/remember I'll try to post a screen shot.

Nitewatchman

11-12-07, 05:22 PM

When WCPO-DT was showing election results at the bottom of the screen, they were doing this in HD, and had shrunk the HD picture, keeping the aspect ratio. This was very impressive as in the past many local stations "squeeze" the picture causing distortion. Not to mention WCPO was able to do all of this keeping the picture HD and the election results in HD as well.

Yep, I noticed that as well, Very nice.

I did think The color of the side bars to match the election results graphics seemed a little distracting though (sort of reddish/orangish) ..

microbob

11-12-07, 05:46 PM

Yep, I noticed that as well, Very nice.

I did think The color of the side bars to match the election results graphics seemed a little distracting though (sort of reddish/orangish) ..

Yes it did look good, I hope that now they can run HD graphics that they will be able to run GMA in HD with their local news crawl as they haven't been able to do so for the longest time.

JunkyardDogg

11-12-07, 08:48 PM

"Yes it did look good, I hope that now they can run HD graphics that they will be able to run GMA in HD with their local news crawl as they haven't been able to do so for the longest time."

Actually, I noticed last tuesday that WCPO-DT had a new news ticker (used for both analog and digital) and it allowed for GMA to be in HD. Looks like it is a little more animated when compared to the old one. Just like before, WCPO's ticker simply covers the national ticker at the bottom of the screen. Thanks to WCPO and their obvious commitment to HD. Hopefully it pays off for them in the ratings, even though HD isn't tracked by Nielson yet.

microbob

11-13-07, 11:13 AM

"
Actually, I noticed last tuesday that WCPO-DT had a new news ticker (used for both analog and digital) and it allowed for GMA to be in HD. Looks like it is a little more animated when compared to the old one. Just like before, WCPO's ticker simply covers the national ticker at the bottom of the screen. Thanks to WCPO and their obvious commitment to HD. Hopefully it pays off for them in the ratings, even though HD isn't tracked by Nielson yet.

GMA was in HD this morning and it looks great with the local HD weather cut In's.

jimp2244

11-13-07, 01:39 PM

GMA was in HD this morning and it looks great with the local HD weather cut In's.Nice!

I guess we should also mention that WLWT has been able to insert their news ticker/crawl into NBC HD Today Show for some time now as well.

Nitewatchman

11-13-07, 03:00 PM

Some News :

Clear Channel TV Buyer may back out (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/business/news/e3i4a9e49192906f1647b1795d488100efb)

Update: A More detailed article on it, including link to a SEC filing involved is currently available here :

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6499349.html

mikemikeb

11-14-07, 03:30 AM

Come on already ClearChannel, let's just sell the station and get a 5.1 audio encoder in!

Or, just get a 5.1 audio encoder before the sale, if need be. How expensive could it be? Wouldn't it cost way less than a switch to HD news?

cadet502

11-14-07, 11:09 AM

Directv just added FoxSports Ohio to their game-only HD lineup. 638-1. I'm hoping this means ALL Reds games will be available in HD next season.

jimp2244

11-14-07, 01:44 PM

We will get a total of 6 NFL games this week, all in HD. OTA-only viewers will get 5 games (will get CLE/BAL game from WHIO). Cable-only viewers will get 5 games (will get MNF game). FOX has the double-header this week.

Sunday Day Games:

1pm FOX (19 WXIX, 45 WRGT) Arizona at Cincinnati
Sam Rosen, Tim Ryan

1pm CBS (7 WHIO) Cleveland at Baltimore*
Ian Eagle, Solomon Wilcots

4pm FOX (19 WXIX, 45 WRGT) Washington at Dallas
Joe Buck, Troy Aikman

4pm CBS (12 WKRC) Pittsburgh at NY Jets
Jim Nantz, Phil Simms

Sunday Night Football:

8:15pm NBC (5 WLWT, 2 WDTN) – New England at Buffalo
Al Michaels, John Madden, Andrea Kramer

Monday Night Football:

8:30pm ESPN – Tennessee at Denver+
Mike Tirico, Ron Jaworski, Tony Kornheiser, Michele Tafoya, Suzy Kolber

+Cable Only
*Bonus game for OTA viewers

Notes: This will be a great week for NFL football. We get all of the AFC North games this week and everything is in HD.

As always, let me know if any information is incorrect or needs to be updated.

JunkyardDogg

11-14-07, 02:17 PM

Also noticed last weekend that WXIX-DT is sending out DD5.1 all the time now. Sounds pretty good and it doesn't give my sound receiver a loud crack when it used to switch between DD2.0 and DD5.1. Now WKRC-DT is really behind the times with WCPO, WXIX and WLWT having their own encoders.

jim tressler

11-14-07, 02:37 PM

did they announce all games, or is it still home only?

Directv just added FoxSports Ohio to their game-only HD lineup. 638-1. I'm hoping this means ALL Reds games will be available in HD next season.

jim tressler

11-14-07, 02:38 PM

Nitewatchman

11-14-07, 02:44 PM

*Bonus game for OTA viewers

If you go here and choose various communties, you'll notice Dayton stations are carried on TW cable in Cincinnati DMA in Fairfield and Points North, However, AFAIK they currently only carry their analog signals ..... :

http://www.twcinci.com/cable/lineup/pick_community.asp

For example, for Fairfield Zip 45011 it shows the following Dayton stations carried on TWC :

WKEF, WRGT, WPTD, WHIO

They erronously(IMO) list WPTO as being a "Dayton" station ....

note : "TBN" is shown as well, assume that's probably from WKOI (probably not LP TBN translator W36DG Cincinnati), which is "officially" a Dayton market station as it's community of license is within Dayton Market(Richmond, IN), even though transmitter location is actually Within Cincinnati Market ...

Assume "The CW" is from WKRC-DT rather than WBDT Dayton ...

-----------------------------

Here is link to TW Dayton area Channel lineups, BTW -- I think Which cincinnati stations are carried in Which Dayton DMA communities is "interesting" as well ... Such as WKRC and WXIX being on most dayton metro area systems(even points North east of Dayton such as fairborn/beavercreek, and North of Dayton such as Huber Heights) except within the "City of Dayton" itself ......

http://www.timewarnercable.com/CustomerService/CLU/TWCCLUs.ashx

------------------

Of course, regarding commecial stations, when Network programming airing on the in market station is duplicated, since the in market affiliate has the sole distrubution rights to the network programming within the market, it is often the case that the out of market station will be "blacked out" during those times, or the cableco will provide "alternate programming" on that channel ....

Nitewatchman

11-14-07, 02:50 PM

.. but last week was similar where who dey was at 4 and the browns were at 1..

As has already been mentioned, because last week Fox had the doubleheader, And if Dayton is Bengals secondary market(which seems to be the case) and therefore WHIO would have been obligated(by NFL) to air the 4pm Bengals away game instead of 1pm Browns game, just like this week they(nor any CBS affiliate) can't air both 1pm+4pm game .... In which case, therefore WHIO couldn't show both the CBS' Browns 1pm and 4pm Bengals game ...

If WHIO is not bengals secondary market status, then it would haven been up to CBS and/or WHIO ...

jim tressler

11-14-07, 02:57 PM

gotcha

Nitewatchman

11-14-07, 03:05 PM

gotcha

I hope not, as I said it a bit "wrong" until I just edited my post at 3:01pm ;)

Sorry about that ....

jimp2244

11-14-07, 03:54 PM

If you go here and choose various communties, you'll notice Dayton stations are carried on TW cable in Cincinnati DMA in Fairfield and Points North, However, AFAIK they currently only carry their analog signals ..... Yes, I've been places in Butler and Warren counties where they do get the Dayton stations on Time Warner. Not in HD though as you said. Noticed that even Liberty Township - West Chester does not include Dayton channels. I have never seen any Dayton stations other than PBS on any cable or satellite system in Hamilton or Clermont counties. I suspect that the "line" is somewhere slightly north of the Hamilton/Butler and Clermont/Warren county line.

jimp2244

11-14-07, 03:59 PM

interesting.. whio is picking up the browns this week because of who dey on fox.. but last week was similar where who dey was at 4 and the browns were at 1.. usually whio picks up the browns when there is no conflict.. oh well
Go Browns!!In addition to Jeff's very good response, I would add that this week WHIO does not have the option to show the Bengals game (it's on FOX). Since it's a CBS single-header week, they (and CBS who really determines which game each affiliate airs) were faced with two likely choices: Cleveland at Baltimore (1pm), or Pittsburgh at NY Jets (4pm). The Bengals game was not a factor in their decision so they decide to air the game that will get the most viewers (Cleveland's fan base trumps Pittsburgh's in Dayton).

WKRC on the other hand, did not have such a choice. Because they're in the Bengals primary market, they are not permitted to air a game opposite a Bengals home sell out. If the Bengals game were away, the *could* air a competing game in that time slot, but almost guaranteed they wouldn't.

cadet502

11-14-07, 06:10 PM

did they announce all games, or is it still home only?

Sorry, I guess I should have said all the games available. I just know it should be better than last season when they only had the HD feed on an alternate channel on days within 86 hours of a full moon.

plughplover

11-14-07, 06:21 PM

Nitewatchman

11-14-07, 07:13 PM

I *think* Fairfield and certain other areas getting Dayton stations relates to the fact that we used to be TCI Cablevision, and the franchise agreement negotiated with TCI included them on basic cable. TWC inherited this when they acquired the TCI properties.

We also used to get WDTN, but the Cincy network outlet decided they wanted exclusivity a few years back.

Oh, and the Dayton stations are also carried in clear QAM, SD only, on TWC uhh 80? 81? (I forget off-hand). I believe this is just a dtv encode of their analog signals.

Don't know how much longer the current local franchise agreement has to run.

I dunno. While I suppose that could be some sort of an issue involved, First of all, it is up to the broadcaster (station) whether or not to seek cable carriage on any particular cable system serving any particular community. They don't have to "allow" cable to carry their signal, at all, and, it's not really "up" to the cableco or anyone else -- If qualified broadcaster asserts their must carry rights for example, the cableco has to carry them ...

And, The cable carriage agreements between stations+cableco's last 3 years. At the end of every 3 years, the station can "renew" their agreement, or "discontiue" the agreement, or renegotiate/change their "choice" between negotiating for carriage via retransmission consent or (if they qualify for it) invoking must carry.

I suspect which out-of market Cincinnati or Dayton stations are carried on cable in "which areas" Of Dayton/Cincinnati, especially those areas between Dayton/Cincinnati(near the DMA boundries especially) probably has more to do with agreements(or lack thereof) among the stations and between the stations and the cableco's than it does anything else.

For the most part The Dayton stations signal coverage areas(service area) reach into Northern Ky, Cincinnati stations signal coverage areas Reach North of Dayton, and therefore the signals are "available" to the majority of the population in both Markets, and also are available for cable carriage in many areas of both markets ...

Following paragraph corrected :

Important Issues regarding rules involving Stations cable carriage rights are directly related to the stations service/coverage areas. [Following corrected] Although, if I read CFR 47 Sec 76.55 (c) (e) "correctly", for commercial stations only , Must Carry rights apply only Within the station's DMA .... Stations on FCC's "significanlty viewed" list for any specific county may have something to do with it as well ...

But, Per their Network/affiliate agreements, the in-market network affiliate has the sole distrubition rights to the network programming within the market, usually(but not allways, depending upon location probably due to arrangements among the stations/etc) any out-of-market affiliate carried will be "blacked out" when network programming is duplicated .... For instance, In Dayton area, WXIX is carried on most Dayton cable systems, but is "blacked out"(well actually they run alternative programming according to recent posts on this in Dayton thread) during Fox network programming which is the same as from WRGT, but when WXIX runs a locally produced UC basketball game, then it isn't "blacked out" ...

Of course, OTA signals do not obey affilates market "exclusivity" rights, therefore those really only apply to redistrubtion of the signals rather than the stations "actual" distrubution of their programming(OTA) ...

Anyway, Unless there is a "change" in rules that involve broadcasters cable carriage rights, I expect Both Dayton+Cincinnati broadcast signals will likely be carried on most Butler+Warren county cable systems for a long time because of the proximity of the markets and Dayton/Cincinnati transmitters+where the DMA boundry is ....

rwatson73

11-14-07, 07:35 PM

How many Stations can I get with a Antenna in Middletown, Ohio.... and do anyone have a list of stations I can get? (including DT/HD/and OTA?

plughplover

11-14-07, 08:02 PM

Splicer010

11-14-07, 09:21 PM

Nitewatchman

11-14-07, 09:37 PM

I agree with most all of your post, except...

I imagine it would be possible to include terms in a franchise agreement that would provide an incentive to the cableco to *seek* retransmision consent from the broadcasters. Yes, the broadcasters have the final say, but cableco might actually be motivated to seek that programming -- "if you don't carry the stations, then you are not serving our community needs and you loose the franchise" or something to that effect.

Agree. I don't think anything in my post contridicts that possibility ..... update: to clarify, my main point was, while it may be "involved", I doubt the real reason why out-of-market Dayton stations are carried in most of Butler/Warren counties on cable is because of some old "dusty" agreement, and that is how I read your post regarding the TCI thing ...

Regarding the NCE stations, It's just a guess, but I expect cablecos probably "welcome" carriage of all the area PBS stations, including all their multicast digital services (including the dayton+Cincinnati ones) because my understanding is that it helps them meet their public service obligations ....

Assuming the franchise was sufficiently profitable for TWC, then TWC could wave big wads of money at the stations to get that consent, or at least demonstrate to the franchise board that they made a good faith effort to obtain it.

I sort of doubt TWC has waved "big wads of money" at stations very often, but who knows ;)

Hmmm... I wonder how many of the Cincy/Dayton stations are invoking 'must carry' vs 'retransmission consent'.

Well, generally, I think the main reason(s) why a commercial station would invoke "must carry" would be if they don't offer "in demand" programming the cableco's customers would care for (mainly religious+home shopping channels/etc), or (2). IF they can't come to an agreement with the cableco via retrans consent and can "settle" for giving their signal away for free for carriage by cableco ....

[removed this paragraph with inaccurate info as a out of DMA commercial station apparently wouldn't have must carry rights out of market] ...

Generally, I think Stations with programming the cableco's want on their system would choose to negotiate for carriage via retransmission consent, which can involve $, but can involve other things as well (such as say, carriage of a digital SD multicast subchannel) ....

Right now, digital stations with analog counterparts don't have must carry rights for the digital stations, (If they are a "digital only" station they do, but there are few of those currently) only for the analog signals until they go off air, then they get must carry rights for the digital ....

Nitewatchman

11-14-07, 09:48 PM

How many Stations can I get with a Antenna in Middletown, Ohio.... and do anyone have a list of stations I can get? (including DT/HD/and OTA?

Go here and punch in your address and it will give you a list (digital or analog or both together) :

www.tvfool.com

this one will as well, it's less technical, but also a bit less accurate in some regards :

www.antennaweb.org

plughplover

11-15-07, 07:25 AM

to clarify, my main point was, while it may be "involved", I doubt the real reason why out-of-market Dayton stations are carried in most of Butler/Warren counties on cable is because of some old "dusty" agreement, and that is how I read your post regarding the TCI thing ...
Yup, that is exactly what I'm saying. I don't have hard data (maps etc) to back it up, but I'm fairly certain that the areas getting Dayton on TWC coincide with the old TCI franchises. For example, Mason / West Chester areas which have been TWC 'forever' don't have Dayton stations, but Hamilton / Fairfield areas (old TCI properties) do.

Hey splicer, do you get Dayton on the Adelphia properties TWC acquired?

Splicer010

11-15-07, 09:33 AM

Hey splicer, do you get Dayton on the Adelphia properties TWC acquired?

Only three; WRGT, WHIO & WPTD...& only on the basic tier not on digital...

TroyMclure

11-15-07, 12:55 PM

Notes: This will be a great week for NFL football. We get all of the AFC North games this week and everything is in HD.

I think the Bengals Game is only in SD, accd'g to http://www.hdsportsguide.com/nfl.php

chrisirmo

11-15-07, 01:10 PM

I think the Bengals Game is only in SD, accd'g to http://www.hdsportsguide.com/nfl.php

According to the coverage maps (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12214719#post12214719) thread it will be in HD, with New Orleans/Houston and St. Louis/San Francisco games being FOX's SD entries this week.

Nitewatchman

11-15-07, 01:28 PM

Yup, that is exactly what I'm saying. I don't have hard data (maps etc) to back it up, but I'm fairly certain that the areas getting Dayton on TWC coincide with the old TCI franchises. For example, Mason / West Chester areas which have been TWC 'forever' don't have Dayton stations, but Hamilton / Fairfield areas (old TCI properties) do.

What about Middletown, lebanon, Carlisle, Franklin, Springboro, and all the other communties in Butler+warren counties which are within Cincinnati DMA but have dayton+Cincinnati stations carried on the cable system?

You seem to be saying all those Areas within around 10~20 miles or so from Dayton transmitters in Warren+Butler counties(which are in Cincinnati DMA) all have Dayton signals on their cable systems because of some old "hand me down" dusty agreement and that the stations involved could really care less whether or not the many ( 100,000's probably?) of viewers in this area receive their signals via their cable system ...

Sorry, I don't buy it ... While like I said in my original response to your post on this, I agree what has happened in the past(such as the "TCI" thing) may have something to do with it, and it's certianly true that what is the situation "within the DMA" is of most importance to the stations.

However, in the Areas between Dayton+Cincinnati the Dayton stations are just as "important"(in Some cases more, even in some spots in Cincinnati DMA) to many of those that live there as the Cincinnati stations are, and I expect it's important to the stations involved to some degree as well. I suspect That we see Dayton(and cincinnati) stations covering News in Northern Butler+Warren counties(which they do) is one sign of that, that you'll also sometimes see local advertisements for Businesses in this area on the dayton stations(fairfield/hamilton/Middletown, even Middletown's upcoming "new" hospital) is probably a sign that they intend to "serve" these out-of-market communties with their signal as well. I doubt they're just doing it for those of us who are OTA viewers in the area ...

Then, there are also the Cincinnati stations such as WXIX and WKRC which are carried on most dayton cable system(except in The City of Dayton itself), even communities North and North east of Dayton ....

For instance, the Cincinnati/Dayton DMA boundry is about 1/4 mile North of me, I'm 32 miles from Downtown Cincinnati and 15 miles from Downtown Dayton, about 12 miles from Dayton transmitters. While I'm "in" Cincinnati DMA, As is the case everywhere around here on cable, TW Middletown/Madison Twp.(doesn't serve my specific rural locaton, the cable lines stop about 1/4 mile up the road, east of me) Carries both Dayton+Cincinanti signals, and there wasn't even any "cable" within 5 miles of me until the mid/late 90's (I don't know who "owned" Middletown's cable system before that, but as I recall I do believe it was TW who extended the system into my area) .... But, Neighbors who use DBS and subscribe to DBS LiL service, obviously can only get the Cincinnati stations via the dish, since we're in Cincinnati DMA. So, many of them get the Cincinanti stations via the dish and have an antenna up for Dayton, because they work in Dayton and want to see Dayton news -- And, around here(even in Middletown from what I have seen), it seems to be "typically" be the case that folks watch the Dayton stations moreso than Cincinnati ....

Nitewatchman

11-15-07, 01:48 PM

Only three; WRGT, WHIO & WPTD .....

"Only Three" is 1/2 of them ....

jimp2244

11-15-07, 02:08 PM

I think the Bengals Game is only in SD, accd'g to http://www.hdsportsguide.com/nfl.phpBengals game will be in HD. I've found hdsportsguide to have incorrect information from time to time.

According to the coverage maps (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12214719#post12214719) thread it will be in HD, with New Orleans/Houston and St. Louis/San Francisco games being FOX's SD entries this week.Yes. Also, when FOX does SD for the NFL, they use "FOX Widescreen" which gives a 16:9 picture. Because they use very high quality upconverters, the SD widescreen looks good enough that it fools many people into thinking it is actually HD. When CBS does SD, on the other hand, it is done in tradiational 4:3 and the upconversion is quite poor.

Bottom line is, though, Bengals will be in true 720p HD this week.

jim tressler

11-15-07, 02:17 PM

if you call what fox does hd.... lol... just kidding.. like to stir it up a bit.. :)

Nitewatchman

11-15-07, 03:01 PM

CincySaint

11-15-07, 06:06 PM

Rumour Mill :

Have run into a couple of recent articles that report Raycom(owns WXIX) is adding RTN(retro television network) to their Montgomery, AL NBC afffilate(WSFA) and these articles reported they are "considering" carrying RTN "systemwide" on their stations ....

Seems to me like it might be a good replacement for "The tube" for WXIX ...

Umm...I'd rather not have this kind of programming wasting bandwidth that could be devoted to Fox Sunday football in HD :):)

The Retro Television Network is Equity Media Holdings Corporation's system of television stations primarily airing classic television programming from the 1950s through the 1980s, such as My Three Sons, The Wild Wild West, Gomer Pyle, U.S.M.C., and Laverne and Shirley. Schedules for some markets are customized to avoid conflicts for series with an existing station with a contract to air a program in that market

Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retro_Television_Network)

Nitewatchman

11-15-07, 06:34 PM

Umm...I'd rather not have this kind of programming wasting bandwidth that could be devoted to Fox Sunday football in HD :):)

It won't(The tube didn't either) because Fox encodes FOX HD at network level such that there is "room" for affiliates to add one SD multicast subchannel. It won't "look" any different whether or not the affiliate adds a multicast SD service.

720p is more multicast friendly than 1080i.

Nitewatchman

11-15-07, 09:42 PM

Thought I should post this, to clarify why I just Made some edits/corrections to earlier posts regarding commercial stations "must carry" rights ....

I had thought on earlier occaisons I had read in the rules somewhere commercial stations must carry rights involving out-of-market carriage on cable systems involved their coverage area, but it seems I was mistaken as looking for it again in the regs I can't find anything like that currently.

And in fact in CFR47 ,Sec 76.55 (c), (e) and (e)(2) - "definitions applicable to the Must carry rules ( http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2007/76/55/) it defines qualified(for must carry rights) local commercial broadcast stations as being within the same DMA of the particular cable system involved .....

So, in short as far as must carry goes for *commercial stations* (NCE's are different) it seems stations only have must carry rights *within* their DMA ...

-----------------------------------------

This however does not change my opinion(which is all I've been saying all along on this) that *the reason* Dayton commerical stations' signals are carried on Most cable systems in Northern areas of Cincinnati DMA (most of Butler and Warren counties) Is because these communities in Butler+Warren counties are *so close* to the Dayton stations/market, *and* because they are well within the stations covereage areas ...

Any, some, or all of issues which plughplover or myself have brought up(except what I had said about the possibility that must-carry could be invoked by the out-of market commercial stations, which was incorrect, I believe) *may* very well have something to do with *how* the out-of-market signals are carried in any given community(which is also part of what I've been trying to say), on any given cable system, but I still say the reason they are there is because of the proximity of these communties to Dayton market/Dayton stations ....

plughplover

11-16-07, 12:29 AM

If it was simply proximity, then areas I mentioned (Mason / West Chester) would definately qualify. I mention them specifically because, as I've lived in both areas, and given their proximity to Hamilton / Fairfield, I have some familiarity with them. (Oh, and West Chester is only a few mile east of me)

For example, I lived in West Chester around 1980 and had TW cable. (This was when they were doing the DUAL-cable service and interactive TV (http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/tv/2006/10/time-warners-new-interactivity.asp) experiments - aka the Qube (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QUBE).) I had no Dayton stations then, and that area still does not have them.

Conversely the TCI served areas DID have the Dayton stations. Back in late 98 when the TCI / TWC swap was announced, loss of the Dayton stations was one of "our" concerns. BTW - some quick googles turned up a cincypost article (http://www.cincypost.com/business/1999/time050599.html) that brought back memories (I was *excited* about getting Roadrunner service!) but note the TCI info at the end of the article. (More memories - I and several other FF residents testified at a PUCO hearing about Cincy Bell, where we *blasted* them for their over-priced ISDN data service.) Anyway, my recollection is that Fairfield franchise board raised the Dayton issue with TCI / TWC at the time.

The point is, from having lived in comparable northern Cincy areas, TW never showed ANY inclination to carry the out-of-market stations, but TCI did. When I asked about Dayton stations as a West Chester subscriber, the basic TWC response was 'they're out of market' then, and I'll bet that is still their response. (Hmmm... an interesting experiment I may try tomorrow - I'll call TWC, say I'm thinking of moving to West Chester, and ask why they don't get the stations I do in Fairfield.)

FWIW, I seem to recall that the Fairfield franchise agreement was for ten years, and my gut is telling me we may not be to far off from renewal; this discussion may be well-timed. I'll have to call and check on it...

So no, I don't accept that "we" have Dayton stations simply because of our proximity. My personal experience with TW says that the only reason this odd little geographic spur (Fairfield/ Hamilton) gets services that the older TW franchises which nearly surround us *don't* get, is because they were grandfathered in with the TCI acquisition (hmmm at least until franchise renewal time comes around).

We may just have to agree to disagree here. I started to actually research and map out the old TCI service areas and see how that related to TWC areas that do/don't get Dayton stations, but it really isn't worth the time / effort it would take to track down the old FCC form 322, 324, and 325 filings and put it together.

However, speaking of those forms, and also the 'must carry' and 'retransmission consent' stuff, the following three links might be of interest. If you proceed to the the third page of the reports you can look up the programming info...

the search form - https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/csb/coals/index.html
and Time Warner Cincinnati's two current annual report (form 325) filings
https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/csb/coals/forms/325/325_Section_I.cfm?&reference_number=183833891&appType=AR
https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/csb/coals/forms/325/325_Section_I.cfm?&reference_number=183931594&appType=AR

Interesting that the second system is so much smaller than the first one (one report per head-end/system) - perhaps that one is the Adelphia acquisition? (edit: yup - see programming category #15)

Later...

Splicer010

11-16-07, 09:48 AM

Thanks for the QUBE link...What a blast from the past! I started my career with Warner-Amex and the QUBE system...TCI, Frontier Vision and another (can't remember their name) covered the areas outside the city limits...If I remember when Adelphia came on the scene they got the old TCI systems that warner didn't or couldn't want/get...TCI was the best thing to happen to cable TV and they are sorely missed...Good ol' Ted...

Anyway thanks for the ramble down memory lane...:)

plughplover

11-16-07, 11:01 AM

jim tressler

11-16-07, 11:42 AM

The new video franchise bill really messed up local cable access and the revenue that local communities got off of them. Although most of the older franchise agreements were outdated anyway and required things that todays market for pay tv does anyway.. oh well.. those with the best lobiest usually win :)

Splicer010

11-16-07, 12:18 PM

Follow-up:

The franchise agreement here expired in 2004. The new franchise agreement was signed April of this year. It is (was) a 15 year agreement.

However, in the process of checking this, I stumbled across something that was news to me. Here is one reference:
http://www.journal-news.com/hp/content/oh/story/news/local/2007/06/26/hjn062607cablebill.html

So the agreement signed in April is the 'last' one...

The local agreement is the last one...Still has an agreement with the state for that community IF I am reading it correctly...I remember hearing of the changes but didn't know it had passed...

jim tressler

11-16-07, 12:42 PM

the cable companies have the option of opting out of any local franchise agreement at any time and adopting the state agreement

Splicer010

11-16-07, 01:16 PM

I am just unclear of the (dis)advantages of going state over local for both parties...:confused:

plughplover

11-16-07, 01:47 PM

My read on that article, and the info I got from local franchise board, is that cableco can't opt out of existing terms unless / until certain conditions are met, most notably 'local competition'. But there will be no more renewals, so the one TWC signed in April for Fairfield is the last one for us. Though given they dragged their feet for 3 years before signing it, I don't know why they didn't wait a few more months till the bill passed.

Nitewatchman

11-16-07, 04:12 PM

If it was simply proximity, then areas I mentioned (Mason / West Chester) would definately qualify.

I didn't say it was "simply" proximity, I think points we've both made bring up issues which *May* be involved.

I said(proximity) is the reason why in a "general" all-encompassing sense, and I still believe that's the case.

"Normally" -- If we didn't have out-of-market stations "so close" --- AND if say there were no Cincinnati DMA (let's pretend there are no cincinnati stations) --- Solely from a "distance"/coverage area" standpoint, Hamiliton County cable(and Clermont, and probably in N KY as well) would carry Dayton signals as well -- HOWEVER, it just so happens there are Cincinnati stations/is a Cincinnati DMA, and Hamilton county is pretty much the "center" of the DMA, and also happens to be where almost all the Cincinnati DMA stations broadcast from(except for WCVN) ... Clermont and other "counties" in the Cincinnati DMA are also obviously farther away from Dayton, even though the Dayton signals still reach them .... (note: BTW, TW Hillsboro channel lineup info shows it carries WHIO) ....

While NCE carriage rules are 'different", involving "DMA" issues, Carriage of WPTD Dayton in points "farther south" than Southern Butler County provides a "real world" example of this, as they *are* carried on cable systems, seemingly based more on the signal coverage area of the station than is the case with the commercial stations .... And it's not because the Dayton commercial stations signals don't reach "as far" as WPTD's signal, as that isn't the case in "reality", in the "real world" ....

As for what signals from commercial stations "qualify" for cable carriage, I'm not sure there are any real obstales other than technical ones and in-market stations exclusivity rights on distrubtion of programming within the market regarding which out of market broadcasters signals can be or will be (such as via retransmission consent for commercial stations) carried on cable systems.

Generally(forgetting about out-of market i.e. "DMA" issues for a moment), cablecos carry stations which the cableco headend involved is within a stations coverage area (Dayton stations coverage areas reach into N KY). And, there are specifics involving stations coverage areas and cable carriage rights which can be found in Various FCC regulations. But , there are even cases ("in the boonies" so to speak) when cableco's serving specific communities carry signals for which they are "outside" the coverage area. Such as because there are no in market affilates or "nearer" stations that provide the programming of interest involved ...

I mention them specifically because, as I've lived in both areas, and given their proximity to Hamilton / Fairfield, I have some familiarity with them. (Oh, and West Chester is only a few mile east of me)

I'm talking about *all* the cable systems within Cincinnati DMA which carry Dayton commercial stations broadcast signals, as a "whole". Not any specifics/details involved concerning why it works that way in any given case for any given community.

I would not care to speculate or try to answer "why" it's the case in any given case because many issues can be involved and I am not privy to the information involved in each case ... In fact, these sorts of details are generally kept private and involve the agreement for carriage between the cableco+the broadcaster .... I have had converstions recently, and less recently with folks who work at area broadcast stations, including recently with an engineer who works at a dayton station(s), and while I certianly can not pass along here what he said(or he/they have told me about these things in the past), I can tell you that even he isn't privy to some of the details involved, nor would he likely be "allowed" to talk about it if he did .....

In earlier posts(as I quote below), while you mention the "specific" areas you refer to, you also refer to the "other" areas or "certian other areas" within Cincinnati DMA which receive the Cincinnati stations via cable indicating to me your comments were not meant to *only* reffer to "specific areas" (Fairfield/Mason/etc) .... Otherwise, I likely would have not been "compelled" to offer a reply to your first post on this, other than perhaps something along the lines of a reply of "that could very well be" ..... :

but I'm fairly certain that the areas getting Dayton on TWC coincide with the old TCI franchises.

I *think* Fairfield and certain other areas getting Dayton stations relates to the fact that we used to be TCI Cablevision,

We may just have to agree to disagree here.

I do not, and have not disagreed at any point that what you are saying *may* be an important issue (or *the* important issue) involved for how out-of-market Dayton signals are carried on cable in the *specific* communities you refer to, or for that matter anywhere TCI owned the systems in Butler/Warren counties ....

Maybe it is *the reason* in Fairfield, and not in West chester, like I said before, I dunno (I don't know) ....

I *do* believe the proximity to Dayton of Any community in Butler or Warren county that *does* carry the Dayton signals *IS* the underlying reason why they are there when those cable systems also (obviously), as you would expect, carry the *in Market* Cincinnati signals, and that's not something I have to speculate or guess about ....

I started to actually research and map out the old TCI service areas and see how that related to TWC areas that do/don't get Dayton stations, but it really isn't worth the time / effort it would take to track down the old FCC form 322, 324, and 325 filings and put it together.

However, speaking of those forms, and also the 'must carry' and 'retransmission consent' stuff, the following three links might be of interest. If you proceed to the the third page of the reports you can look up the programming info...

the search form - https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/csb/coals/index.html
and Time Warner Cincinnati's two current annual report (form 325) filings
https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/csb/coals/forms/325/325_Section_I.cfm?&reference_number=183833891&appType=AR
https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/csb/coals/forms/325/325_Section_I.cfm?&reference_number=183931594&appType=AR

That "Page 3" (programming info regarding which stations are carried via must carry/etc) is indeed interesting .... I've never visited that section of Media bureau site before, and can't seem to find the 325 form search from that index page from where you found those ? ... Anyway, Knew the cableco had to keep that info in their "public file" available for inspecition, but didn't know it was available online from FCC site ...

Note that the info for the first link you privide is for physical ID 003215, which is for TWC service in The community of Dayton, Ohio. Here's a cumulative signal leakage report for them (There's a "full list" of communties in Dayton area involved near end of this report ) :

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/coals.formsPrint?&reference_number=188243231&FCC_Identifier=&appType=CL

That's why, for instance WBDT Dayton is on the "must carry" list for page 3 info on 325 form in your link from them. (Is "interesting" its there, though) ....

Your 2nd link (for physcial ID 011950) involves TWC service in various communties across SW Ohio.

Here's a "aeronautical notifcaition" report for the Physical ID 011950 system ... page 2+3 of this report llists the various communties involved for Physical ID 011950 - Includes such communties as Georgetown, Aberdeen, west chester, Lebanon, Monroe, Ross, Moscow, Franklin, Fairfield, Harrision/etc/etc/etc .... :

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/coals.formsPrint?&reference_number=188779234&FCC_Identifier=&appType=AN

If you go to following search page, and use "cincinnati"(or Middletown,) for "community name" (OH for "community state) for the search, a bunch of reports (cumulative leakage reports/etc) will pop up with a Physical system ID of 004656 ... If you type in "fairfield", reports involving the system with physical ID of 004656 is among those which will pop up, but others that serve fairfield with different ID #'s will pop up as well .... Assume the Physical System ID's involve different headends or cable systems .... If you use "dayton" for community name search, most are under Physical ID of 003215, but there's also another ID that corresponds to a viacom system/report from 2003 ....

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/csb/coals/forms/reports/Search_Form.hts?form=Cops_Search

Do note that What "used to be" seperate divisions of TW --- TW western Ohio (Dayton, Lima/etc) and TW Cincinnati -- Became a "single" entity not long ago (2005 or 2006 or so, don't recall exactly when ...

plughplover

11-16-07, 05:27 PM

can't seem to find the 325 form search from that index page from where you found those ?
They don't make it easy ;) How I did it --
Click on "Cable Search" on left; this gives you Generic Search Forn

Select Community State = Ohio
Select Type of Filing = Annual Cable Operator Report (Form 325)
Set Show Records at a time = 99

Gives you 130 results. A quick scan reveals

MVPD Legal Name = Time Warner

Which reduces it to 46 results. Started walking through the 2007 filings, only those two had the Cornell street address...
Your 2nd link (for physcial ID 011950) involves TWC service in various communties across SW Ohio.

Here's a "aeronautical notifcaition" report for the Physical ID 011950 system ... page 2+3 of this report llists the various communties involved for Physical ID 011950 - Includes such communties as Georgetown, Aberdeen, west chester, Lebanon, Monroe, Ross, Moscow, Franklin, Fairfield, Harrision/etc/etc/etc .... :
IIRC "I" am OH0250, so the 'Fairfield' in there is 'differant'. In fact, that might further support it is Adelphia - when I talked to FF franchise guy, he mentioned they were getting flack from the 'Wildwood subdivision' folk (who were Coaxial Comm, then Adelphia, now TWC) because they had differant channel lineup :eek:

BTW, if you actually read that report, I guess you now know who the "Mike B" I referred to is - but you didn't hear it from me :rolleyes:

Nitewatchman

11-16-07, 06:30 PM

Select Type of Filing = Annual Cable Operator Report (Form 325)

Ah, I missed those drop down box selections ...

Oddly enough I earlier found the "type" box in the "COPS" search but not in the cable search as the search page titles it as a "320" search ...

BTW, if you actually read that report, I guess you now know who the "Mike B" I referred to is -

Yes, I noticed that .... I'm not sure whether or not some folks filing various FCC reports realize the contact info on those forms is available to the public ...... It's the same with broadcast filings ....

Nitewatchman

11-16-07, 07:09 PM

IIRC "I" am OH0250, so the 'Fairfield' in there is 'differant'.

With a little "browsing" Only filing I have come across for OH0250 (fairfield) I found is a form 322 filing via using the following info in the "generic" cable search page :

Community Name : Fairfield
Community State : Ohio
Type of Filing : Community registration

And, The Only filing for OH0250 (fairfiled) that pops up has a filing date of 11/21/1972 and a status of "operational", and it says the Physical ID # involved is 004656 ---- .... It also says it's for "Time warner entertainment co LP", but I suppose the MVPD name could have 'changed" from the orginal filing+that the report itself is modified/ameded as well (it has to be regarding WDTN, as their callsign was WLWD in 1972) ...

Here it is :

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/coals.formsPrint?&reference_number=30295&FCC_Identifier=&appType=CR

Some of the info for The "local" broadcast stations shown are obvioulsy from "old" info, but some of the info has obviously been updated :

WBTI (Didn't come on air until late 70's or early 80's, this is now WSTR)

WDTN (didn't "become" WDTN until early 80's, was WLWD)

WCEt, WCPO, WHIO, WKEF, WKRC, WPTD, WPTO, WXIX have same callsigns now as they did in 1972 ...

WTTV (bloomington, IN) was commonly carried on cable systems in this area back in "the day" when there wasn't much else on cable besides broadcast signals, and maybe by the mid-late 70's, a few "cable" channels like HBO ....

WUAB (Cleveland) - was independant station also commonly carried on cable systems in this area "back in the day" ....

This is why listings for WTTV and WUAB used to be listed in the Dayton/Cincinnati editition(s) of TV guide, although some in the area actually did receive (and still do) WTTV 4 OTA ...

I don't remember what WYAH was ....

Update: Here's another one for Physical ID 004656 -- TW's cable system in my community (Madison twp, butler county), this one has approval date from 1996 (shows cable service began in 1977 in this community, which seems about right from what I can recall involving at least one populated subdivision in this community which I think had cable way back then) -- The stations call signs are "up to date" in this one, although a few are missing which are carried (KET/WCVN, WPTD, WPTO off top of my head) :

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/coals.formsPrint?&reference_number=24705&FCC_Identifier=&appType=CR

Update 2:

here's the only one for Mason, OH, it's from 1980(also Physical ID 004656). Notice it also lists Dayton stations WDTN, WKEF and WHIO as carried :

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/coals.formsPrint?&reference_number=30537&FCC_Identifier=&appType=CR

There are two that show up for West chester :

#1). For Facility ID 011950, community unit ID OH2310(west chester twp, butler co), Date of receipt, 12/29/93, status "active"/operational, MVPD legal name Time warner NY cable LLC --- Dayton stations WHIO, WPTD, WRGT are shown as carried :

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/coals.formsPrint?&reference_number=23592&FCC_Identifier=&appType=CR

#2). For facility ID 004656, community unit ID OH0798(West chester twp, butler co), Date of receipt, 7/7/1980, status active/operational, MVPD legal name Time warner Entertainment co LP -- Dayton stations WHIO, WKEF, WDTN are shown as carried :

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/coals.formsPrint?&reference_number=30596&FCC_Identifier=&appType=CR

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/coals.formsPrint?&reference_number=30596&FCC_Identifier=&appType=CR

Started walking through the 2007 filings, only those two had the Cornell street address...

check this one(2007 325 filing for a TWC Cornel St adress) out. I used the physical ID # 004656 for the 325 forum search(as I explained above that's the physical ID# that corresponds to fairfield community ID OH0250), dunno why this doesn't show up via using your search method but it shows up via this method :

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/csb/coals/forms/325/325_Section_I.cfm?&reference_number=183868108&FCC_Identifier=&appType=AR

check out pg 3 "programming info" -- Interesting, eh? No Dayton stations are on any of the 'broadcast' lists --- Also, they list multiple listings of WCET's digital services,(for 48.1 and 48.2 I assume) and list KET's services as "WKET", although KET has no transmitter with that callsign ...

Also interesting is that for digital/HDTV, WXIX is only shown for "expanded basic", while all the others are shown under HDTV/basic ...

Nitewatchman

11-16-07, 08:01 PM

Here's another one, this one for "Community of Cincinnati" (ID OH0866, Physical system ID 004656) from 1983 ... Yes, Cincinnati, in Hamilton County, the "center" of Cincinnati DMA ..... Surprise, surprise, just like the mason, west chester, fairfield "community registration" FCC cable filings I provided in update to last post above, Dayton commerical broadcast stations are listed in the box that says "Indicate the local Television broadcast signals to be carried on this system!" , In this case, WDTN, WHIO and WKEF ....

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/coals.formsPrint?&reference_number=30540&FCC_Identifier=&appType=CR

Maybe they never were "actually" carried(or were only carried early on) but I believe all these filings indicate that at least at one time, if they weren't carried in those communities, "the plan" was to carry them .... No wonder, given the proximity of Cincinnati area to Dayton and that the Dayton broadcast signals coverage areas include these communities ....

jdhughes63

11-16-07, 08:04 PM

8:02 PM 11-16-07 TW 912 WKRC-HD is transmitting in SD. Must be due to the crawler at the bottom of the screen. Certainly not the usual Sunday football problem.

Back to HD at 8:07 PM. I wish they could do crawlers and still keep the HD

Nitewatchman

11-16-07, 08:07 PM

WKRC-DT HD at 20:06 EST 11/16 OTA ....

update: Has Dropped to SD for the amber alert crawl at 21:01~12:05 ...

(Note I'm not monitorining "continously" just happened to walk into room at 21:01 ..)

plughplover

11-16-07, 08:27 PM

I may have missed a TWC report, but I think you've found some remnants of the TCI system. That subscriber count, the correlation of the system ID with the locations, and the dates involved, all seem to point in that direction. I'm not certain about the OH0250, but it seems to fit... I'd forgotten about WTTV - always thought that was an odd one.

There isn't really a head-end here any more. The dishes and antenna towers are still physically at the location, but it is just a "hub" now (same as is happening with Adelphia system).

Kind of interesting digging through that db, isn't it? The sysops are probably scratching their heads wondering why it has suddenly gotten busy with all these queries :)

Nitewatchman

11-17-07, 04:30 AM

I'm not certain about the OH0250 .....

Here's some info explaining what form 322 and CUID (0H0250 is a CUID) is and is for :

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/reg.html

Before commencing operation, a cable system operator must file Form 322 Cable Community Registration for each community to be served in accordance with 47 C.F.R § 76.1801 . The purpose of the Cable Registration form is to provide an accurate and updated record of all cable systems operating in the United States. Each community must have its own separate registration form. The Commission will assign a community unit identification number (CUID) when the registration process is complete.

CUID OH0250, OH0634, OH2269, OH2451 are the ones for Fairfield, Butler County, OH. They're all shown as "active/operational". 3 of the 4 322 forms for those are just like all the others I've looked at, Dayton and Cincinnati stations are all listed in the "Broadcast signals to be carried" section. OH0634 seems unusual, as it's the only from for any community In SW Ohio I've looked at so far which has no Dayton stations, and also it ONLY has one Cincinnati station listed (WBTI, now WSTR).

There is only one CUID for Mason, OH, and only two for West Chester. I provided links to all of their 322 forms in Earlier post. One in West Chester has the 011950 Physical ID, and a little different TW MVPD "legal name", the other 004656 PsyID. As noted in Earlier post, all 3 of those have Dayton stations listed.

Are there some 322 forms that are "missing" via the searches from FCC site I tried that should be there ? I can't say, but I doubt it, everything "seems" to be there regarding the communities involved which I looked at/searched for (by community name) ....

The sysops are probably scratching their heads wondering why it has suddenly gotten busy with all these queries

Yep, LOL ;) ...

plughplover

11-17-07, 02:39 PM

I said 'I'm not certain' because, as you discovered, there is more than one registration for Fairfield, and I'm not certain which one reflects the community registration for my address. BTW, OH2451 is Fairfield Township, Highland County - not 'here'. Note: from my discovery below, I'm not OH2269

As far as whether the info is complete - I can't find it off-hand but IIRC there was a description of that db that said it indexed records going back to 1996. So I would expect that it would reflect new and updated filings after that date. It is only recently that electronic filing was mandatory, so you are also at the mercy of whoever processed the older paper filings and entered them into the index. However, I have not been able to find anything actually entered that far back - in particular, I was looking for records of the 1999 TCI acquisition. (EDIT: oops - EDOCS is the one that goes back to '96; looks like COALS only goes back to around '03. So much for finding TCI xfer info :( )

BTW, I may have found (a part of?) the Adelphia acquisition.
https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/csb/coals/forms/operator_change/OpChange_Form.hts?mode=display_assumption_page&reference_number=174941898&FCC_Identifier=&appType=OA
Doesn't show it on that page, but it is dated 08/08/2006, which sounds about right, and a few of the community codes seem right as well (OH2269, OH2310). I suspect OH2269 is the part of Fairfield the franchise guy referred to (ref my earlier post)

Hey Splicer, are 'you' in that list?

There are many more xfers around that date - try CB17959373 and CB17976531 (above link is CB17974257). Interesting all the differant PSIDs involved.

You have pointed out that some of these registrations list station carriage that seem 'odd', use out of date call-signs, etc. I agree. If you want a current, accurate, picture of what TWC is actually offering in various communities, you would probably be better off going to their web-site. http://www.twcinci.com/cable/lineup/pick_community.asp
For example, pick Hamilton, Fairfield, (some real fun ones ->) Union Township/Butler County and Liberty Township/Butler County (they have Westchester lineups), Trenton, New Miami, etc. Correlating this info with the FCC community/system registration data might be problematic, but the TWC info does let you develop a rough picture as to where WRGT, WHIO, etc are and are not offered - today.

I still submit that the areas around here that DO get them correlate with the old TCI system. Proving that assertion would be an arduous task, given the available data (the FCC database and the TWC lineups).

Splicer010

11-17-07, 03:42 PM

Hey Splicer, are 'you' in that list?

;) Yup...

Nitewatchman

11-17-07, 07:35 PM

BTW, OH2451 is Fairfield Township, Highland County - not 'here'.

Thanks for the correction. I neglected to look at the county for that one because it has same physical ID (004656) and Cincinnati address shown for TWC, and Dayton+Cincinnati stations were listed.

There were 9 that popped up for "Fairfield, OH", In most cases I went through them to see which ones were "specifically" the "Fairfield" in Butler County, but again, I missed that that one wasn't.

As far as whether the info is complete ....

I suspect OH2269 is the part of Fairfield the franchise guy referred to (ref my earlier post) ....

Based on the 322 forms I looked at, It seems quite complete in comparison to the data in FCC's excel spreadsheet(which also seems complete) described below :

FCC provides an excel spreadsheet, updated daily(they say), which contains records for "All cable communities registered with the FCC" -- Here's the link to it :

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/vax/registeredcuid.xls

You can also find a link to that xls file near bottom of lower left sidebar on various FCC Media Bureau webpages, including this one :

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/csrptpg.html

For example :

For fairfield, in the Spreadsheet :

CUID OH2269 is shown for hamilton County, Fairfield, OH(incorporated city)

CUID OH0250 is shown for Butler County, Fairfield, OH (Incorporated city)

CUID 0H0634 is shown for Butler County, Fairfield, OH (Incorporated Township)

For Mason/West chester, it shows the same thing as in the COALS query - 1 CUID for Mason, 2 for West chester ...

in the spreadsheet, you can of course "sort" by State/County/Community name and easily "scroll" through all of the "cable communities" listed for each county ... Assuming it's listed in there(should be I'd think) .... Wonder which one of the "non-TW ones" in SW OH which are currently shown is active is splicer010's "system" ? (the small cable system he said he "works on"/partly owns) ....

- I can't find it off-hand but IIRC there was a description of that db that said it indexed records going back to 1996. So I would expect that it would reflect new and updated filings after that date.

If you noticed, when you run a query for the community registrations, a dialog box pops up and informs you that the records are a reflection of the "current" situation regarding any updates/amendments, not the original filings.

However, Obviously, there are 322 forms which are available there for viewing which date back to paper filings(which were "converted" to electronic format, obviously) originally filed on dates as least back to 1972(the earliest one I came across). Other than involving MVPD legal name or address, there isn't much evidence of updates/amendments to the older forms beyond the Early 1980's, given listings on some forms such as WDTN (switched from WLWD callsign in late 70's or 1980 ), and WBTI (switched to WIII in 1985, and to WSTR In 1990 - see here for the latter : http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/call_hist.pl?Facility_id=11204&Callsign=WSTR-TV ) ...

You have pointed out that some of these registrations list station carriage that seem 'odd', use out of date call-signs, etc. I agree.

I think only a bit odd because (except for any "newer" community registrations involved) obviously the "broadcast signals to be carried" info hasn't been updated to reflect the current situation in many/most cases, wheareas other items in the records on the 322 forms have been(legal MVPD name/etc. )

Not odd at all I don't think in the context of Dayton stations listed in 322 forms either being carried now on most cable systems in Butler+warren counties now, or on all the systems as indicated in their forms "in the past", or at least the plan being for them to "be carried" at the time of the original filing or any amendments that may have been made later to that section of the form. Including Regarding *all* of the 322's for CUID's of all SW ohio communities I looked at except for the one for Fairfield CUID 0H00634. Even including *all* of them for Mason+West chester and one for a Cincinnati CUID Showing DAYTON stations on their list as "to be carried on the system". No wonder, given the proximity of these Communities to Dayton, and that they are within the signal coverage area of the Dayton stations.

If you want a current, accurate, picture of what TWC is actually offering in various communities, you would probably be better off going to their web-site. http://www.twcinci.com/cable/lineup/pick_community.asp

Already did that. See my earlier post here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12216082#post12216082

Note: I mentioned Fairfield in that post because it's the farthest point South I'm aware of in the Cincinnati-Dayton Metro area where the Dayton(analog) signals are currently carried on cable. And Because *most* systems north of there carry them as well.

I still submit that the areas around here that DO get them correlate with the old TCI system.

Again, I dunno ( I don't know). That very well may be the case, for those that do get them currently, I never said it wasn't. It's "good enough" for me as I certianly have no particular reason to care whether or not that's the case.

My only intent regarding this "discussion" has been to *illuminate* some of the other issues that are or *may* be involved regarding carriage of out of market Dayton signals in the "northern" areas of Cincinnati DMA.

However, that being said, again, the evidence available from the 322 forms for the Communities involved suggest it was the case in the past Dayton signals were carried, or were "planned to be carried" via cable in communities such as West Chester/Mason (and Even Cincinnati) which we know do not get the Dayton signals now.

Proving that assertion would be an arduous task, given the available data (the FCC database and the TWC lineups).

Unless you have some particular reason to do so, if it is even possible, I certianly don't know why you would want to do that.

BTW, in case you were wondering and had read any of it/etc. before I edited it this morning, I shortened my last post considerably only because #1), upon reflection the comments I removed seemed unnecessary and repetitive/mostly available in earlier posts, and #2), I was certian it would be "misread" or "misinterpeted", I'm even more convinced about that, now ....

Nitewatchman

11-17-07, 08:55 PM

However, I have not been able to find anything actually entered that far back - in particular, I was looking for records of the 1999 TCI acquisition.

You won't find things such as the 325 form filings/etc at ECFS, and it's probably doubtful the info you're looking for is here --- But, If FCC opened any sort of "proceeding" on it(which may or may not be the case), you might be able to find something at ECFS (in addition to comments submitted by intererested parties, FCC reports and orders/NPRM's etc "pop up" here), but you need to know the docket #/etc to search for that is involved for the specific proceeding ...

For instance, if you go here :

http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/comsrch_v2.cgi

And input "87-268" in the "proceeding" box You'll get a index of comments from "interested parties" +FCC documents(reports and orders/notices/etc) for the FCC's "DTV proceeding", dating back to when they opened that proceeding in 1987, up to the current activity in that proceeding related to the post-transistion DTV table of allotments. The links for each "described" entry are to the documents involved themselves in PDF format.

Unrelated to your inquiries, but Note that the "DTV proceeding" (87-268) is only one of many "proceedings" FCC has undertaken involving DTV during DTV transistion. The third peroidic DTV review is another one that is currently underway (07-91).

You can also find most of the FCC documents(but not comments submitted to them by other "interested partiels), such as Reports and orders/etc, involving DTV transistion here:

www.fcc.gov/dtv

I have been "digging things up" on FCC website for quite sometime, generally involving DTV transistion and from CDBS (sometimes from EDOCS, but fairly rarely) or the various broadcast facilitity related "queryies" or from "other places" in MB or OET pages and have some "familiarity" with that(and it can be quite "cumbersome at times), but other than relating to DTV transistion, I haven't spent much time "looking for" cable stuff ...

In some cases, there are records/information there that goes back to the 1960's or 70's, such as the 322 forms/community registration info from the coals "cable" search, or such as this info from 1968 involving WKRC's license : http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_det.pl?Application_id=810

But, for example, probably what you're looking for in coals, or something like this -- a 2001 "License to cover" application involving WKRC-DT's "full power" (800KW license, a filing from 2001, "covering" a contruction permit issued in 1998 - Note they've actually been on air since 1999, but before this application was filed, with a bit different operating paramenters) may not be "available" for "public viewing" much beyond the past 10~15 years or so, if even that long ago :

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=100554632&formid=2&fac_num=11289

-----------------------------------------------

Update:

I suppose it is also possible you might find some info of some sort on that via other gov't websites as well, such as FTC, a google search for TCI+Time+warner seems to turn up some documents from FCC site from around that time period (late 90's) ....

BTW, maybe these are the part of the "information superhighway" Al Gore invented ;)

plughplover

11-17-07, 08:58 PM

Yeah, I've got a copy of the spreadsheet, just haven't moved it to a system with Excel yet.

The stuff in that db are kind of puzzling at times. For example, if you pull up the OH0250 registration, it is a 'paper' filing, was approved in '72, but the scanned image has TW info on it. If you actually save the pdf, open it in acrobat, and examine the document properties, it was created in 2005 by someone who's name shows up in the Media Bureau contact list. So did TWC actually file paper registration updates for the community? and in 2005? huh? And if TWC actually filed paper updates in 2005, then the old WTTV etc stuff REALLY doesn't make sense!

re: proving my assertion - you challenged it, I poked at the database, decided it wasn't worth the effort to prove it - no big deal. If it had the TCI xfer data like for Adelphia, it would have been fairly simple, but it doesn't; oh well...

Yes, I see that most of reg's list the Dayton stations, but the simple fact is that they don't carry, nor have the older TWC franchises (that I have historical knowledge of) ever carried them. Maybe TWC is pulling a fast one on the FCC? Nah, they wouldn't do that, would they? But with all those filings, are they obligated to count all those subscribers as viewers? Sinclair wanted real per-sub money for WRGT/WSTR this go around... Is part of the Basic cable fees the subs in those areas are paying going toward stations they don't actually receive? I don't actually expect answers, but the inconsistencies lead to all kinds of speculations :)

Anyway, enough for now - t'was interesting digging through the db etc, but got more pressing things to deal with...

BTW, update - LG is now telling me 'its a problem with the cable signal' and are supposedly working with TWC to resolve it. sigh... I've asked to talk with the engr who arrived at that conclusion... round and round and round it goes :(

Nitewatchman

11-17-07, 11:09 PM

The stuff in that db are kind of puzzling at times. For example, if you pull up the OH0250 registration, it is a 'paper' filing, was approved in '72, but the scanned image has TW info on it. If you actually save the pdf, open it in acrobat, and examine the document properties, it was created in 2005 by someone who's name shows up in the Media Bureau contact list. So did TWC actually file paper registration updates for the community? and in 2005? huh? And if TWC actually filed paper updates in 2005, then the old WTTV etc stuff REALLY doesn't make sense!

Looks to me like the "stations to be carried" info in the 322 forms may have been updated up to some point into the early-mid 80's(WDTN showing up instead of WLWD, WBTI showing up instead of Wiii or WSTR), but not after that, other than involving newer "complete" 322 forms that were filed, although those apparently aren't kept "updated" with the "stations to be carried info" either -- looks to me like some of the later ones involved are probably listing the "stations to be carried" at the time of the "original" 322 filing ...

BUT, looks to me like most(if not all) of the other info in the forms is probably kept updated/current, either by FCC staff or cableco staff "electronically", and it looks like that same info is also kept updated in the excel spreadsheet(which doesn't have the "stations to be carried" info).

Perhaps the "stations to be carried" info isn't "required" to be info that is kept updated(at least not anytime recently), since the "stations carried" info is provided by the cableco elsewhere(alhtough not in as "community specific manner" as on the 322 forms), such as in that "page 3"/programming section" in their annual 325 forms .....

I poked at the database, decided it wasn't worth the effort to prove it - no big deal.

What I pretty much said was I thought it was "no big deal" as well ....

Sinclair wanted real per-sub money for WRGT/WSTR this go around...

That seemed to be what the press releases/articles said, don't know the exact details regarding those particular stations, however.

Don't forget WKEF though --- WRGT/WKEF are co-located facilties(WKEF analog transmit antenna is on a different tower that's about as "seperated" as they get). Sinclair owns WKEF -- and, unless the ownership transfer request to sinclair for WRGT has "been approved", since I've last checked -- Even though Sinclair really "runs" both stations, Sinclair "technically" operates WRGT under LMA (local marketing agreement) for another company who "actually" owns it.

BTW, update - LG is now telling me 'its a problem with the cable signal' and are supposedly working with TWC to resolve it. sigh... I've asked to talk with the engr who arrived at that conclusion... round and round and round it goes :(

I know the feeling. Hope they get it straightened out .... Keep us updated ....

rwatson73

11-19-07, 07:18 PM

Splicer010

11-19-07, 09:51 PM

A rotator would be the best thing one could get...I really should get one myself...

BTW, update - LG is now telling me 'its a problem with the cable signal' and are supposedly working with TWC to resolve it.
Hard for me to say what it is...I really don't think it is TW fault but I've been wrong before...The primary reason why I do not think it is on TW's end is because as long as I am on WLWT @ 8PM (105-1), that picture/audio suddenly switches to NBC Weather Plus picture with unsynched audio...As long as I change the channel, while remaining in the 105 channel realm, I can always go back to WLWT and the correct picture/audio are present...Only if I leave the 105 channel realm will I lose WLWT (and EVERY channel in the channel realm) untill midnight...This makes me think that the unit itself is not re-acquiring the neccessary channel information and that would be the units (LG) fault...

wish

11-20-07, 02:31 PM

I just recently found out today about QAM tuners and have a question.

I am an E* subscriber so I don't get locals in HD. With a Terk indoor antenna I am able to get all channels, and even a few Dayton channels, except channel 10 (Cincinnati ABC...damn VHF). Currently the OTA/QAM on the TV is unused since I have the Terk plugged into the ViP622 receiver. The house was at one time wired for TW cable so if I take the cable and plug into the back of my TV (it does have a QAM tuner) will I get the locals in HD?

Obviously the only way to know is to try but I thought I'd ask from others who tried. I sure hope I didn't get rid of the wire that was at one time running through the laundry room!

mlbUC

11-20-07, 02:35 PM

QAM is only used with cable TV. You would have to have some sort of cable TV being run to your house and inside. If you aren't paying, most likely they have unhooked you from their system and you won't find any channels with your QAM scan.

wish

11-20-07, 02:46 PM

QAM is only used with cable TV. You would have to have some sort of cable TV being run to your house and inside.I understand and that's why I commented that I do have cable coming into the house via a prior TW subscription.

If you aren't paying, most likely they have unhooked you from their system and you won't find any channels with your QAM scan.That's the part that I wasn't sure of. The article I read talked about how local HD usually isn't scrambled and I didn't know to interpret that as "you can get them as long as you have a TW cable run" OR it meant "you must be an active TW customer (i.e. on at the telephone pole box)".

AFox

11-20-07, 03:50 PM

mchuckp

11-20-07, 04:29 PM

I was hoping someone could help me out with regards to audio output. Do any of the Time Warner HD channels carry a DD5.1 signal? I currently have my cable box connected to a Toshiba 37HL67 via HDMI, and then the tv's optical output connected to my receiver. Digital output is enabled for both the cable box and tv. I sampled a few shows last night (Heroes and Monday Night Football), and all my receiver showed was 2.1 input. Does TW Cincy not give me 5.1, or is my tv not capable of passing a 5.1 signal? If it's the later, I guess it's not a problem to connect the cable box straight to my receiver.

I don't recall which channels for sure do 5.1. But I know thay many things on FOX is 5.1 and if you get TNT HD I believe everything is 5.1. Not necessarily good 5.1, but that is what the signal is.

If you aren't getting 5.1 then it could be a setting in your TV maybe or maybe the TV isn't doing a proper passing of the signal. I would just go from the cable box to the receiver. One less connection. What is there to gain from going into the TV first?

plughplover

11-20-07, 05:37 PM

I really don't think it is TW fault but I've been wrong before...This makes me think that the unit itself is not re-acquiring the neccessary channel information and that would be the units (LG) fault...
I don't think it is TW's "fault" either, though I do suspect they could impliment a solution - insert Service Location Descriptor in CVCT - just like KET can help us avoid the problem by maintaining the PMT stream when the programs are terminated. That doesn't mean TWC or KET are doing anything that violates the rules and specs, just that a change in the stream that they control avoids our firmware issue.

I'm a little miffed because I seriously doubt the LG engr has sufficient information to reach that conclusion, which is why I'm pushing to talk with them directly. Businesses put lots of barriers and roadblocks to shield these techies from customers, and it takes a lot of persistence to fight through to them... Matter of fact, I spent an hour on the phone today with a supervisor in their 'executive customer relations' department. Almost made it - but she wasn't able to get the right person on the phone... However she said she'd take ownership of the case and follow-up, so we'll see if I get a call back...

plughplover

11-20-07, 05:47 PM

I understand and that's why I commented that I do have cable coming into the house via a prior TW subscription.

That's the part that I wasn't sure of. The article I read talked about how local HD usually isn't scrambled and I didn't know to interpret that as "you can get them as long as you have a TW cable run" OR it meant "you must be an active TW customer (i.e. on at the telephone pole box)".

All you need is "Basic" level of service (~$15/mo) to get the over-the-air analog AND unencrypted digital (QAM) stations that they carry. The OTA stations they carry varies depends on where you live.

AFox

11-20-07, 05:58 PM

What is there to gain from going into the TV first?

I don't want to be forced into using the receiver for audio every time I watch tv. I wasn't sure if the cable box would transmit audio to both the HDMI cable and optical cable at the same time.

Splicer010

11-20-07, 06:08 PM

I was hoping someone could help me out with regards to audio output. Do any of the Time Warner HD channels carry a DD5.1 signal? I currently have my cable box connected to a Toshiba 37HL67 via HDMI, and then the tv's optical output connected to my receiver. Digital output is enabled for both the cable box and tv. I sampled a few shows last night (Heroes and Monday Night Football), and all my receiver showed was 2.1 input. Does TW Cincy not give me 5.1, or is my tv not capable of passing a 5.1 signal? If it's the later, I guess it's not a problem to connect the cable box straight to my receiver.

In my system (Amelia Headend) ABC, NBC, FOX and WCET are retransmitted in 5.1...

Also I believe it is the latter...Connect the cable box to your receiver...:)

Splicer010

11-20-07, 06:16 PM

I don't think it is TW's "fault" either, though I do suspect they could impliment a solution - insert Service Location Descriptor in CVCT - just like KET can help us avoid the problem by maintaining the PMT stream when the programs are terminated. That doesn't mean TWC or KET are doing anything that violates the rules and specs, just that a change in the stream that they control avoids our firmware issue.

I'm a little miffed because I seriously doubt the LG engr has sufficient information to reach that conclusion, which is why I'm pushing to talk with them directly. Businesses put lots of barriers and roadblocks to shield these techies from customers, and it takes a lot of persistence to fight through to them... Matter of fact, I spent an hour on the phone today with a supervisor in their 'executive customer relations' department. Almost made it - but she wasn't able to get the right person on the phone... However she said she'd take ownership of the case and follow-up, so we'll see if I get a call back...

Oh I agree with everything you say 110%...Hope you get a call back...Also with the holiday sales coming up (I forget if we discused this already) I am considering looking for another QAM tuner that is a different brand just to test if the same issues will plague a newer generation unit...

jimp2244

11-20-07, 09:51 PM

jimp2244

11-20-07, 10:03 PM

I have a Radio Shack VU-190 XR and @ 10 feet above roof top... I get 56 total station and some comes in great and some come in bad.... but get both Cincinati and Dayton station..... I would like to recieve stations further away... would DB8 Antenna, & Low Noise Amplifier be good? and should I get a antenna rotator? I am new at this but have a HDTV with HD Built In.... I live in Zip Code 55402.. Thanks could use all the help i can get...
Robert

To help you better we would need to know what stations you are trying to receive, and/or for what stations you are trying to improve reception. I also assume you meant 45402 for your zip code, unless you're in Minneapolis. VU-190 XR is a large (as I'm sure you know) directional VHF/UHF combo antenna. I have one as well, but am not currently using it. I actually have a smaller VHF/UHF combo with rotor that gets me all of Dayton and Cincinnati digitals with no issues (I'm in Sharonville). As for a DB8 antenna or amp, it's really hard to say whether either of those would help you (or hurt you) without knowing the specific channels you're trying to receive/having trouble with.

If you're mostly intersted in Cincinnati and Dayton channels, probably the best set up is your current VU-190XR antenna with rotor, or add a second antenna (such as Channel Master 4221) and point VU-190 XR toward Cincinnati, 4221 toward Dayton, and use an A-B switch to choose between the two.

The DB8 is a UHF antenna (and so is the 4221), and that won't help you with WCPO-DT (VHF channel 10) or WKRC-DT after Feb 2009 (will be on VHF 12).

Nitewatchman

11-21-07, 02:14 AM

insert Service Location Descriptor in CVCT

Just curious, have you found out yet whether or not your LG chipset/firmware would support remapping if that is sent ? Or whether or not it supports the PSIP channel remapping via cable at all ?

just like KET can help us avoid the problem by maintaining the PMT stream when the programs are terminated.

To "recap" a bit ...

#1)Hopefully that will turn out to be the case, but keep in mind William has told us he has been looking for a way to do that, but I don't think we know yet if they can do it or not w/o causing other problems for them, or perhaps w/o some big expense for them involved(new equipment/etc). I think the only time we've seen that(PMT's sent for KET3,5,6 between 20:00 and 00:00) happen sofar occured via the TSP error for WCVN-DT William told us about. Which, he said did cause problems/packet loss on streams sent OTA from WCVN-DT that aren't used by cableco when that error occured at WCVN ) ......

#2) Also, even if KET finds a way to "properly" send PMT's for KET3, 5,6 between 8pm~12am, it Won't fix the problem when transmitter goes off air, which presumably would be a problem with these LG chipsets/firmware/etc experiencing this issue via any cableco receiving any DTV broadcast signal off-air when the cableco doesn't supply PMT's(generated via the cableco's mux) when (or possibly service location descriptor in VCT) the streams go down because the transmitter is down.

I've seen on other threads others reports of the DTV signals via QAM cable being there some times and not at others, or seemingly "missing" on a channel "rescan" -- Oftentimes, the first "assumption" that seems to often be offered is that some folks think that's happening because of the signals being changed to encrypted ... But, I wonder if the issue you guys are having, but perhaps possibly more frequently because of a station's transmitter going off air-*, or other "similar" issues may be involved in some or many of those cases ....

* Some stations do that on a nightly basis in the "wee hours", but only WCET around here on a nightly basis, and only roughly 1/2 the nights in a week. Well, early mornings actually -- Verified last week it happens tue, wed, thur 01:00~06:00, not sure about early Fri morning, the rest of the time they're up 24/7. And of course, they are feedling TW via fiber which is quite different, as their PMT's(and maybe not even the Elementary streams) via cable probably never "go down" whether being generated at WCET or at TW (that's just an assumption because we've seen no evidence of it either way via WCET's streams via TW cable) ....

That doesn't mean TWC or KET are doing anything that violates the rules and specs, just that a change in the stream that they control avoids our firmware issue.

In the past, "funny thing" (Ok, funny isn't the right word) we've seen "similar" sorts of issues involving implementation of various PSIP or MPEG2 PSI info being sent OTA by broadcasters causing some receivers to not be able to properly identify streams/decode the streams, while other receivers work just fine.

In some cases it seemed to take a while for the broadcast folks to realize they almost had to "test" their signal with each and every receiver make/model out there to make sure it was "working OK" .... I wonder if the cableco folks have realized that yet regarding user supplied/purchased QAM receivers, and also wonder how many "QAM Tuners" are working properly with via cable with such things as EIA-708(digital) captions ....

Don't think we've had an issue like that OTA for quite some time now, and hopefully it's mostly a "thing of the past", as it used to be it was a fairly regular occurance to need to "contact the station" about these sorts of things ... It wasn't unusual for it to take several weeks or months for it to "get fixed". I venture to speculate we haven't had to go through that in quite a while partly because #1). stations are obviously paying more attention to their DTV signal than was the case in earlier days when there truly were "few of us watching", and/or #2). perhaps are utilizing better monitoring equipment as we are getting closer to analog shut off. And, 3). partly because of FCC mandating broadcaster implementation of PSIP (It wasn't required before early 2005, before then some broadcasters sent PSIP(or at least some PSIP), and some didn't send ANY PSIP data.

Concerning 3.) it was obvious apparently some OTA DTV receivers don't behave very well if they aren't getting 100% (or nearly so) "proper" PSIP and /or MPEG2 PSI info, and also obvious some(even those manufactured before PSIP was mandated for broadcasters) won't behave well at all without PSIP, even though it's use by broadcasters wasn't even required until 2005 ....

Still, for those receivers that "require" PSIP to be able to properly identify/decode the streams, I'm not sure "mandating PSIP" really "fixes" the issue 100%, as things can go wrong with it and stations equipment at times at the "drop of a hat" so to speak, and sometimes any little change in PSIP or MPEG2 PSI data on the station end (even if it's nothing "wrong") may require a *channel rescan* in order to decode the streams from that station again ....

But, of course, it is likely I think there is just *no way* firmware on some of these older receivers are going to get "updated", if the manufactuer even provided a way for a user *or* a tech to "perform" such a update ....

And personally, I think a better alternative would have been to implement receiver standards for manufacturers to follow regarding these issues, as well as designing the receivers so if/when necessary, they can "fall back" to using the minimal MPEG2 PSI info needed to properly identify and decode the streams (that would include for via QAM via cable as well as for via ATSC 8VSB demod) .... I'm not 100% sure, but seems to me like it ought to include inactive program streams w/o PMT's as well (even if the info on those streams is still present in PAT, or for that matter VCT "service location descriptor info) ... I *do* know I have (or have had) OTA DTV receivers which you can "turn off" PSIP (or apparently so to the user), and I never had problems decoding Any of KET services when they shut down the KET3,5,6 PMT's and elementary streams with them ....

...Also with the holiday sales coming up (I forget if we discused this already) I am considering looking for another QAM tuner that is a different brand just to test if the same issues will plague a newer generation unit...

Don't want to talk you out of getting new equipment ( I think all of us can enjoy the fun of that), but I do believe others have posted previously they are decoding WCVN-DT and WLWT-DT streams just fine between 8pm~12am with their user supplied QAM "tuners" via TWC ... difficult to say, but perhaps The lack of reports from others may hopefully be a "good sign" that relatively few models of receivers are effected ... OTOH, I'd think there *has* to be a lot of folks with the same "effected" LG chipset/firmware (s) ...

plughplover

11-21-07, 11:20 AM

Just curious, have you found out yet whether or not your LG chipset/firmware would support remapping if that is sent ? Or whether or not it supports the PSIP channel remapping via cable at all ?
IIRC, the tsreader reports indicated TWC is sending remapping in the CVCT, but my set doesn't do it for cable (but does via OTA). Whether that means it can't, or just isn't for some _other_ reason, I have no way to determine.
To "recap" a bit ...
... I think the only time we've seen that(PMT's sent for KET3,5,6 between 20:00 and 00:00) happen sofar occured via the TSP error for WCVN-DT William told us about. ......

Also, even if KET finds a way to "properly" send PMT's for KET3, 5,6 between 8pm~12am, it Won't fix the problem when transmitter goes off air,
Agreed. It isn't a 'fix', it just avoids the issue during normal operations.

I've seen on other threads others reports of the DTV signals via QAM cable being there some times and not at others, or seemingly "missing" on a channel "rescan" ... But, I wonder if the issue you guys are having, but perhaps possibly more frequently because of a station's transmitter going off air-*, or other "similar" issues may be involved in some or many of those cases ....
Could be... Look how long it took us to understand what was happenning, and that was with the benefit of the problem occurring on a regular basis, contact with the source engr (William), and two fortuitous accidents - WCVN going off-air and WCVN's TSP glitch. At this stage, it should be easier to analyze other cases by comparing captures of "good" and "bad" streams and seeing if they show similar characteristics - but getting it fixed? THAT'S the challenge.
Some stations do that on a nightly basis in the "wee hours", but only WCET around here on a nightly basis, and only roughly 1/2 the nights in a week. Well, early mornings actually -- Verified last week it happens tue, wed, thur 01:00~06:00, not sure about early Fri morning, the rest of the time they're up 24/7. And of course, they are feedling TW via fiber which is quite different, as their PMT's(and maybe not even the Elementary streams) via cable probably never "go down" whether being generated at WCET or at TW (that's just an assumption because we've seen no evidence of it either way via WCET's streams via TW cable) ....
Thanks for the info; if it is a regular/scheduled thing, I'll make it a point to check.
it was obvious apparently some OTA DTV receivers don't behave very well if they aren't getting 100% (or nearly so) "proper" PSIP and /or MPEG2 PSI info, and also obvious some(even those manufactured before PSIP was mandated for broadcasters) won't behave well at all without PSIP, even though it's use by broadcasters wasn't even required until 2005 ....
With the extra 'gotcha' that the PSIP requirements for cable (A65/B) are not the same as for OTA - in particular, they don't _have_ to carry the "Service Location Descriptor".

Nitewatchman

11-21-07, 01:08 PM

IIRC, the tsreader reports indicated TWC is sending remapping in the CVCT, but my set doesn't do it for cable (but does via OTA). Whether that means it can't, or just isn't for some _other_ reason, I have no way to determine.

Just thought the LG folks should be able to answer that ....

but getting it fixed? THAT'S the challenge.

Yep. FWIW, my experience with that sort of thing is that it sometimes helps if there is more than say, 1 person "accurately" reporting the problem to those who "need to know about it" ...... Especially if it's something they've never worked through/dealt with before ....

Somehow, I have this feeling that the cablecos (and maybe manufacuters as well) aren't quite "accustomed to dealing with it yet" regarding these sorts of issues being problems, whereas I know broadcast engineers(at least many of them which have dealt with DTV) are very familiar with it(DTV receiver chipset/firmware/etc. "specific" issues) by now ...

In other words, while it may take quite some time to get "worked out" -- and while I wouldn't count on it, but hopefully in a few years or so, when more folks are using their "digital cable ready" sets/user supplied QAM tuners, except for "rare occurances" with older hardware -- again "hopefully" these sorts of things will become mostly a "thing of the past", and something we can laugh about, as *seems* to be the case even now regarding somewhat similar issues which occured for OTA DTV and certian receivers/etc in the past ....

Thanks for the info; if it is a regular/scheduled thing, I'll make it a point to check

It is, has been like that for quite some time OTA(on the analog, remember even many years ago they'd run "Star Hustler" then shut down), although it used to be they went down every night around 12:30~1am instead of just 1/2 the nights of the week -- I just wasnt sure exactly which nights as I'm not often up at that time "watching TV" ...

Could be different this week however due to Thankgiving Holiday, but did notice they shut down at 1am Monday night(tue morning) ...

I allways assumed they continued running programming via the fiber feed to TW, since their website shows programming 24/7 7 days a week, but I don't know ...

With the extra 'gotcha' that the PSIP requirements for cable (A65/B) are not the same as for OTA - in particular, they don't _have_ to carry the "Service Location Descriptor".

Yep ...

jimp2244

11-21-07, 02:41 PM

We will get a total of 10 NFL games this week, all but one in HD. OTA-only viewers will get 8 games (will get MIN at NYG game from WRGT, DEN at CHI from WHIO). Cable-only viewers will get 8 games (will get MNF game, NFLN game where available). CBS has the double-header this week.

Thursday (Thanksgiving Day) Games:

12:30pm FOX (19 WXIX, 45 WRGT) Green Bay at Detroit
Joe Buck, Troy Aikman, Pam Oliver

4:15pm CBS (12 WKRC, 7 WHIO) NY Jets at Dallas
Jim Nantz, Phil Simms

8:15pm NFLN - Indianapolis at Atlanta^
Bryant Gumbel, Cris Collinsworth

Sunday Day Games:

1pm CBS (12 WKRC, 7 WHIO) Tennessee at Cincinnati (NO HD)
Bill Macatee, Steve Beuerlein

1pm FOX (45 WRGT) Minnesota at NY Giants*
Kenny Albert, Daryl Johnson, Tony Siragusa

4pm FOX (19 WXIX) San Francisco at Arizona
Ron Pitts, Tony Boselli

4pm CBS (12 WKRC) Baltimore at San Diego
Dick Enberg, Randy Cross

4pm CBS (7 WHIO) Denver at Chicago*
Greg Gumbel, Dan Dierdorf

Sunday Night Football:

8:15pm NBC (5 WLWT, 2 WDTN) – Philadelphia at New England
Al Michaels, John Madden, Andrea Kramer

Monday Night Football:

8:30pm ESPN – Miami at Pittsburgh+
Mike Tirico, Ron Jaworski, Tony Kornheiser, Michele Tafoya, Suzy Kolber

+Cable Only
*Bonus game for OTA viewers
^Available on NFL Network, not available OTA or on most area cable providers

Notes: With an ideal setup (cable/satellite + OTA) it is possible to get 10 of the 16 NFL games this week without subscribing to Sunday Ticket... pretty cool. 8 games for free OTA is pretty cool as well.

Every single game in every market is in HD this week, except one: Tennessee at Cincinnati. We are the lucky ones this week who get to enjoy the horrible SD upconverts from CBS.

As always, let me know if any information is incorrect or needs to be updated.

Nitewatchman

11-21-07, 05:38 PM

Just ran across this relatively new Blog from CET folks, which is currently filled with lots of great articles, info and commentary from Jack Dominic at CET regarding such things as DTV transistion, lip synch "issues" for DTV, recommendations for Outdoor antenna to receive WCET digital from Dayton/etc. Much of it along the lines of things we discuss here, and thought I'd pass it along and encourage anyone interested to participate as they've asked for comments/questions but so far there doesn't appear to be any !

CET Tech Info blog (http://cettechinfo.wordpress.com/)

Splicer010

11-21-07, 06:04 PM

4pm CBS (7 WHIO) Denver at Chicago*
Greg Gumbel, Dan Dierdorf:D FINALLY!!! DA BEARS!!!:D

Every single game in every market is in HD this week, except one: Tennessee at Cincinnati. We are the lucky ones this week who get to enjoy the horrible SD upconverts from CBS.
The way the Bungles have been playing it won't be any great loss...;)

jim tressler

11-22-07, 09:09 PM

good find jeff!

Just ran across this relatively new Blog from CET folks, which is currently filled with lots of great articles, info and commentary from Jack Dominic at CET regarding such things as DTV transistion, lip synch "issues" for DTV, recommendations for Outdoor antenna to receive WCET digital from Dayton/etc. Much of it along the lines of things we discuss here, and thought I'd pass it along and encourage anyone interested to participate as they've asked for comments/questions but so far there doesn't appear to be any !

CET Tech Info blog (http://cettechinfo.wordpress.com/)

plughplover

11-22-07, 09:51 PM

I chuckled at the first post in that blog
First a test is in order.
The new ATSC standards adopted by the FCC will assure that both interlaced and progressive scanning can coexist in the 8VSB transmitted bit stream and as long as all the PIDS are present the video can be displayed on monitors with resolutions ranging from 480p/i to 1080i/p.

If you completely understand the last sentence you will find little of interest in this blog. You already know more than I do. You can stop reading right now. On the other hand, if you feel that the sentence above might have just as well been written in some Klingon dialect, I think you will find the blog informative, helpful and entertaining.
both because I 'passed' the test, and because of the "as long as all PIDs are present" bit (ie my LG problem) :rolleyes:

jdhughes63

11-24-07, 06:58 PM

Saturday evening from 630 to 700, NBC was in SD only on TW912. Switched over to Dayton OTC and I got HD. It looks like the weekend crew at WLWT was asleep at the control panel.

Nitewatchman

11-25-07, 04:04 PM

Quite a bit of NBC HD missing from WLWT-DT this weekend ... Football was HD from WDTN-DT sat afternoon, didn't check WLWT-DT ... Since then, have noticed everything I'[ve checked NBC Has sent in HD has been HD from WDTN-DT (NBC HD Dayton) but SD from WLWT-DT. Including the "Dew action sports"(or whatever it's called) currently, as well as "Incredibles" and SNL(NBC HD logo up on WDTN-DT during the "old" SD thangsgiving skits) last night ...

------------------

On another note, WBNS-DT Columbus coming in occasionally here this afternoon, left an antenna aimed towards Columbus and a receiver+monitor tuned to WBNS-DT while also watching the Bengals game so I also got to see a bit of the HD Browns game ...

davs

11-25-07, 05:13 PM

cb378

11-25-07, 06:01 PM

Question for the OTA guru's... Is there a reason why CBS doesn't broadcast in surround sound??? Or am I missing something?

Thanks,
Ben

jimp2244

11-25-07, 06:05 PM

Thinks its been 3 weeks straight that the crowd is coming from the front and announcers coming from the rears. Maybe its been longer, either way its annoying. I know its not true surround but come on.

Don't remember the correct term but it seems like their stereo signal got polarized?It's only on WKRC-DT this afternoon during Ravens/Chargers game, not on WHIO-DT. Sounds like Dick Enberg is behind me. Whenever they get ready to "go to New York" for an update, the sound is fixed... until they come back from the update.

jimp2244

11-25-07, 06:07 PM

Question for the OTA guru's... Is there a reason why CBS doesn't broadcast in surround sound??? Or am I missing something?

Thanks,
BenCBS does broadcast in surround sound. WKRC does not have a DD 5.1 encoder though, (they're the only ones around here without one) so you get 2.0 sound from them. If you're receiving OTA, just watch WHIO-DT out of Dayton instead. They send DD 5.1. Of course right this second that won't help you because WHIO is showing a different NFL game than WKRC, but I consider that a benefit of OTA... extra NFL games.

cb378

11-25-07, 06:13 PM

CBS does broadcast in surround sound. WKRC does not have a DD 5.1 encoder though, (they're the only ones around here without one) so you get 2.0 sound from them. If you're receiving OTA, just watch WHIO-DT out of Dayton instead. They send DD 5.1. Of course right this second that won't help you because WHIO is showing a different NFL game than WKRC, but I consider that a benefit of OTA... extra NFL games.

Thanks jimp, you tha man!!!

So basically, CBS does broadcast, but the local WKRC does not have the proper equipment to send the signal... makes sense... Any idea if/when they are going upgrade to get an encoder?

Thanks again,
Ben

jimp2244

11-25-07, 06:18 PM

Any idea if/when they are going upgrade to get an encoder?We've been asking for years, but there is still no word on when that will happen. It's probably likely it won't be until after the sale of WKRC is complete. Of course, maybe the engineers at WKRC could claim that this "reverse surround sound" issue they've been having recently is a problem with their current audio encoder and so they need to buy a new DD 5.1 encoder ;)

microbob

11-25-07, 06:24 PM

We've been asking for years, but there is still no word on when that will happen. It's probably likely it won't be until after the sale of WKRC is complete. Of course, maybe the engineers at WKRC could claim that this "reverse surround sound" issue they've been having recently is a problem with their current audio encoder and so they need to buy a new DD 5.1 encoder ;)

And now that the sale to Providence Equity Group may not go through we might be waiting awhile for CC to upgrade to 5.1.

jdhughes63

11-25-07, 09:05 PM

[QUOTE=Nitewatchman;12310240]Quite a bit of NBC HD missing from WLWT-DT this weekend ... Football was HD from WDTN-DT sat afternoon, didn't check WLWT-DT ... Since then, have noticed everything I'[ve checked NBC Has sent in HD has been HD from WDTN-DT (NBC HD Dayton) but SD from WLWT-DT.

Again tonight (sunday Nov. 25th) WLWT had Nightly news in SD. The Dayton NBC station was in HD. Bring back the day crew.

jimp2244

11-25-07, 09:06 PM

Quite a bit of NBC HD missing from WLWT-DT this weekend ... Still no HD tonight from WLWT during Football Night in America nor on Sunday Night Football. Called the news tip line (listed on their web site (http://www.wlwt.com/station/index.html)as (513) 412-5055) and the nice lady told me that their receiver was down and that they were currently looking at it... no ETA for fixing it. I certainly hope it's back up in time for Chuck and Heroes tomorrow night so I don't have to tell my HD-DVR to use WDTN.

I'm glad WLWT is aware of the issue and working on it, but as with any HD issues with local affiliates I think it's important that we try to (politely) give stations a call or quick e-mail to let them know about the problem, and that there is an HD audience out there. An e-mail or quick phone call would do. Same would go for the WKRC audio issues.

jdhughes63

11-25-07, 09:08 PM

NBC Sunday night football is also in SD on WLWT. No explanation in any crawler at the bottom of the screen

jimp2244

11-25-07, 09:11 PM

NBC Sunday night football is also in SD on WLWT. No explanation in any crawler at the bottom of the screenA crawler with explanation would probably be a good suggestion to make if anyone else decides to call and/or e-mail WLWT.

microbob

11-25-07, 09:28 PM

jimp2244

11-25-07, 09:39 PM

5-2 Weather Plus has been down since sometime yesterday afternoon also. They are just showing the local cut-ins. I'm guessing the computer that automates the network HD switching crashed and no one is around to fix it.As I said earlier, their receiver is down, meaning they can't get the HD feed from NBC. There are people around and they are looking at it now, according to the woman I spoke with at the station. The WeatherPlus channel is there and the graphics are all there, but as you said it's missing the network feeds. My guess is that this feed uses the same receiver as the HD feed from NBC does, as WeatherPlus national feeds are provided by NBC.

Nitewatchman

11-25-07, 09:41 PM

5-2 Weather Plus has been down since sometime yesterday afternoon also.

It is a long holiday weekend, after all ...

Anyway :
Another issue I've noticed recently is frequent Audio dropouts and various sorts of video "glitches" from WXIX-DT during Fox programming - 1st noticed it Thursday night during the HD "Dodgeball" Movie, and it was fairly bad during the Arizona/SF game tonight as well ...

Also notice the spilcer inserted local bug is currently up from WRGT-DT but not WXIX-DT, that's unusual with the same programming running(which it is, although at first tonight , WXIX shortly went to a different feed because of the game running over, but just before 8pm, they changed it and joined Simpsons "in progress") since fox controls the insertion of the local splicer inserted bug on fox HD feed .... (note: and WXIX-DT is running the FOX HD feed tonight, because I've seen some HD or Widescreen commercials on there) ....

jimp2244

11-25-07, 09:49 PM

Another issue I've noticed recently is frequent Audio dropouts and various sorts of video "glitches" from WXIX-DT during Fox programming - 1st noticed it Thursday night during the HD "Dodgeball" Movie, and it was fairly bad during the Arizona/SF game tonight as well ...I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one. Until you mentioned this I thought it was my setup!

Nitewatchman

11-25-07, 10:06 PM

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one. Until you mentioned this I thought it was my setup!

Took me a while to figure it out also, although I still probably haven't monitored WRGT-DT or non-fox programming via the "splicer"/Fox HD feed on WXIX-DT enough to ensure it isn't happening in those places as well ...

microbob

11-25-07, 10:30 PM

As I said earlier, their receiver is down, meaning they can't get the HD feed from NBC. There are people around and they are looking at it now, according to the woman I spoke with at the station. The WeatherPlus channel is there and the graphics are all there, but as you said it's missing the network feeds. My guess is that this feed uses the same receiver as the HD feed from NBC does, as WeatherPlus national feeds are provided by NBC.

Jump 2244
Sorry I missed your earlier post... It's funny how their receiver goes down on a long weekend. Oh Well :(

Nitewatchman

11-25-07, 10:45 PM

Just checked, and the WXIX-DT audio dropouts+occasional video glitches(those don't happen simultanously) are happening during non-fox programming as well ...

Interesting ... Not a RF/OTA reception issue here, as SNR/AGC or signal quality readings don't 'change' during the glitches, and audio dropouts/video glitches don't occur simultanously(as they would via a reception related "dropout") ....

Assuming they aren't doing a reencode from the FOX HD via the "splicer", wonder what could be causing this? Do they feed TW via fiber? If so, wonder if it's happening there as well (as that would bypass the trellis encoding/transmitter/exciter and possibly even WXIX's MUX of 19.1/19.2 streams )

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh well, back to HD for eagles/Pats game from WDTN-DT! This game is turning out to be more interesting than some thought it might!

JunkyardDogg

11-26-07, 01:20 AM

Noticed the same thing on WXIX-DT. If it is still an issue tomorrow, please post so I can contact WXIX. I do not have an HDTV at my current residence, so I will need to hear move feedback from you guys.

Also, it was a good weekend for OTA football, minus the problems on WXIX and WLWT.

jimp2244

11-26-07, 10:04 AM

FYI if anyone is interested in watching or recording HD on computer/laptop, or using a program like TSReaderLite to analyze digital broadcast streams, etc. there is a really good deal right now on the Hauppauge (pronounced HOP-hog) USB ATSC tuner stick. I have one of these and it works well, and it can be fun to take a look at the affiliates in other markets when I'm on the road. I know we're not supposed to post ads and what not, but I think this is useful and relevant. The HVR-950 USB Stick is on sale for $39.99 shipped after rebate at Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Hauppauge-WinTV-HVR-950-Tuner-Personal-Recorder/dp/B000J1CCGA/ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1196090426&sr=1-1).

BuckNut

11-26-07, 08:25 PM

WXIX -DT is still having the issue during the Bearcats game tonight. I checked with both of my tuners.

bearcatscott

11-26-07, 08:51 PM

I am having problems with WXIX, also, with my Dish 622 receiver.

Nitewatchman

11-26-07, 08:53 PM

^ Yep, same here. Still wonder if folks are getting it from WXIX-DT via cable (if they send TW a feed via fiber), because if not+Jydogg can forward the info to their engineers(in case they are not already aware of the issue) it may help them narrow down the issue to such things as STL issues/etc ...

-----------------

On another note, noticed WLWT-DT ran a "HD technical difficulties" crawl at beginning of "Chuck" tonight -- As was menitoned earlier by others, Great idea, IMO ... BTW, also noticed the crawl ran on the analog station as well, i wonder if they'll get any calls from any "confused" analog only viewers about that ;) ....

dpeters11

11-26-07, 09:35 PM

WLWT had a conference call with NBC this morning and a replacement is being delivered. Hopefully it is in place soon.

Now if only we could get WKRC to get the equipment for 5.1 sound.

jdhughes63

11-26-07, 10:35 PM

WLWT had a conference call with NBC this morning and a replacement is being delivered. Hopefully it is in place soon.

That sounds pretty indefinite. I always worry when a date is not given.

microbob

11-26-07, 10:45 PM

According to John Kiesewetter's Blog. They plan to have next Sundays Bengals vs Steelers game in HD.

"Rest assured that next Sunday night's Bengals vs Steelers game on NBC will be available on WLWT-HD. We look forward to resuming our full menu of HD programming very shortly." Sincerely, Richard Dyer

dpeters11

11-26-07, 11:03 PM

That sounds pretty indefinite. I always worry when a date is not given.

Well, they actually told me in the email that they had a conference call with NBC New York this morning and hoped that they would get the unit today, which would mean some sort of sonic UPS service. Either it didn't get there, or it takes time to get it working.

jimp2244

11-26-07, 11:07 PM

Don't mean to overshadow microbob's post (as it was what prompted me to check Kiese's blog) but I thought it would be good to include the whole entry so folks can get the full perspective of what happend and when it will be fixed:

------------------------------------
Channel 5's HDTV Outage

Channel 5's HDTV receiver broke down Saturday, which is why football fans didn't see NBC's prime-time Patriots-Eagles game in HD.

Here's an update this morning from Richard Dyer, WLWT-TV president and general manager:

"We experienced a major failure of our NBC High Definition receiver on Saturday and were unable to secure a replacement from the network in time for last night's Sunday Night Football broadcast. We apologize for the game being available only in standard definition and are efforting to resolve the problem ASAP.
"Rest assured that next Sunday night's Bengals vs Steelers game on NBC will be available on WLWT-HD. We look forward to resuming our full menu of HD programming very shortly." Sincerely, Richard Dyer
------------------------------------

Generally I would think that a device like the NBC HD receiver WLWT uses would have a very good/quick replacement policy, and it wouldn't surprise me to see HD tomorrow night. Meantime we've always got WDTN.

Also wanted to say thanks to everyone for making this thread a great source of information, specifically recently in regard to the issues as of late with WLWT, WXIX.

jimp2244

11-26-07, 11:09 PM

Well, they actually told me in the email that they had a conference call with NBC New York this morning and hoped that they would get the unit today, which would mean some sort of sonic UPS service. Either it didn't get there, or it takes time to get it working.I deal with some high-availability equipment (not broadcast TV related) that carries a 4-hour on-site replacement service. They usually don't use UPS or FedEx, but rather a courier service. A contracted engineer also shows up on site to help with installation of the replacement. It wouldn't surprise me if they already have the unit and are working on putting it in place and testing.

rwatson73

11-27-07, 12:25 AM

To help you better we would need to know what stations you are trying to receive, and/or for what stations you are trying to improve reception. I also assume you meant 45402 for your zip code, unless you're in Minneapolis. VU-190 XR is a large (as I'm sure you know) directional VHF/UHF combo antenna. I have one as well, but am not currently using it. I actually have a smaller VHF/UHF combo with rotor that gets me all of Dayton and Cincinnati digitals with no issues (I'm in Sharonville). As for a DB8 antenna or amp, it's really hard to say whether either of those would help you (or hurt you) without knowing the specific channels you're trying to receive/having trouble with.

If you're mostly intersted in Cincinnati and Dayton channels, probably the best set up is your current VU-190XR antenna with rotor, or add a second antenna (such as Channel Master 4221) and point VU-190 XR toward Cincinnati, 4221 toward Dayton, and use an A-B switch to choose between the two.

The DB8 is a UHF antenna (and so is the 4221), and that won't help you with WCPO-DT (VHF channel 10) or WKRC-DT after Feb 2009 (will be on VHF 12).

sorry it took me so long to respond I was out of town... meant 45042.. was taking a vacation in Minneapolis and was thinking about the trip at the time.. but I am looking to get station further away than Dayton/Cinncinnati... Like Louisville, Lexington, Columbus, Toledo, and Cleveland.. Were would be the best place to find a Channel Master 4221 and rotor if I need one..... And what would be the easiest way to attach it to a Fireplace Chimneys? Thank for all your help..
robert Watson...
check out my website ... this is why i need all the help... http://www.liveeastcoastfeed.org
Live East Coast Feed Presents... The World's First HDTV Broadcast For The Internet... You can watch Live TV & Chat, or hear music & Chat, or watch DVD's & Chat...

dpeters11

11-27-07, 07:09 AM

Looks like WLWT has everything fixed now. I'd think if they had a 4 hour replacement service it would have been fixed on Saturday.

jimp2244

11-27-07, 08:36 AM

Looks like WLWT has everything fixed now. I'd think if they had a 4 hour replacement service it would have been fixed on Saturday.Not necessarily... As reports have indicated, WLWT had a conference call with NBC Monday morning. Generally with the 4 hour replacement services I've dealt with, the service level agreement is that the replacement will be delivered within 4 hours of processing, meaning that they must first confirm a physical hardware issue. It's more than likely that WLWT noticed the problem and was attempting to fix it over the weekend, and then confirmed with NBC on Monday that it was a hardware issue. Generally they won't just throw replacement hardware at a problem unless exhaustive troubleshooting has been performed and hardware is determined the issue.

That said, thanks for the update and glad to hear WLWT-HD is back in business.

jimp2244

11-27-07, 09:22 AM

I am looking to get station further away than Dayton/Cinncinnati... Like Louisville, Lexington, Columbus, Toledo, and Cleveland..Unfortunately, you are not going to be able to receive any stations from those cities with any sort of consistency. The best I can get here in Sharonville is WAVE 3 (NBC) Louisville analog, and depending on conditions WTTV 4 (CW) analog out of Bloomington. There may be some times where tropospheric conditions are right and you might be able to see some of them, but most of the time you will be out of luck.

Were would be the best place to find a Channel Master 4221 and rotor if I need one.....Not sure specifically about the CM 4221, but you can check solidsignal.com
And what would be the easiest way to attach it to a Fireplace Chimneys?There are several "Chimney Mounts" available at solidsignal:

http://www.solidsignal.com/cat_display.asp?main_cat=03&CAT=Mounting%20Supplies

check out my website ... this is why i need all the help... http://www.liveeastcoastfeed.org
Live East Coast Feed Presents... The World's First HDTV Broadcast For The Internet... You can watch Live TV & Chat, or hear music & Chat, or watch DVD's & Chat...I'm not sure I understand how reception of distant cities' TV stations helps with your web site?

fgrogan

11-27-07, 11:01 AM

Hello,

I just purchased a new Sony KDL 52XBR4. So far the picture is awesome. I have the DirecTV rep coming today to upgrade my existing dish and receiver to HD and HD DVR. I specifically requested a HR-20 model HD DVR so that I can integrate OTA. I'd like to have it as a alternative to the compressed DirecTV signal as well as a backup, esp for rain fade, etc.

When I purchased the TV late Saturaday night (great deal at HH Gregg), I also picked up a indoor amplified RCA brand antenna to test out the local OTA signal. The XBR4 has a HD tuner and cable input. I did a check at anntennawb.org and aimed the indoor antenna in the general direction of the Cincinnati locals (no compass avaiable). I'm a little disapointed in the results, the best signal seems to be from the Dayton NBC channel so far. The Patriots-Eagles game was awesome (the signal/image, not the teams! Go Steelers!). The WLWT signal cuts in and out with a lot of pixilation. Most of the other locals aren't much better. We have a lot of tall trees in our backyard.

When we built the house 4 years ago, I pre-wired the entire place, and I have a dual RG-6 bundle of wire in my attic specifically to address addtional antennas (beyond the 2 dual runs for the DirecTV dish already being used). So, I'm thinking to put a rood top HD antenna up to use with the new TV as I mentioned at the beginning.

What kind do you suggest? I am located about 1 mile north of Loveland on Ohio RT-48 on top of a hill, but with tall tree's behind me. 2 story house. My main interest is the Cincinnati channels, getting Dayton or anything else isn't a big deal, nice to have at best. I'd like to keep the cost down if possible, but I don't want to do it half a**ed either. I was thinking of connecting the outdoor antenna to a home run location in my basement, use a 4 way distribuation amp and send the signal to the new HD unit and prepare for more TV's in the next year or so.

Sorry for the long post.

jim tressler

11-27-07, 11:26 AM

What road are you near on 48? - Shottmann, Butterworth, Baxter??

jimp2244

11-27-07, 12:23 PM

I specifically requested a HR-20 model HD DVR so that I can integrate OTA. I'd like to have it as a alternative to the compressed DirecTV signal as well as a backup, esp for rain fade, etc.Good idea. With the proper roof-top set up, I think you'll be more than pleased with the OTA results.

What kind do you suggest? I am located about 1 mile north of Loveland on Ohio RT-48 on top of a hill, but with tall tree's behind me. 2 story house. My main interest is the Cincinnati channels, getting Dayton or anything else isn't a big deal, nice to have at best. I'd like to keep the cost down if possible, but I don't want to do it half a**ed either. I was thinking of connecting the outdoor antenna to a home run location in my basement, use a 4 way distribuation amp and send the signal to the new HD unit and prepare for more TV's in the next year or so.Your plan is sound, and it sounds like you've got a lot of prep work in place too, which will help. As for which antenna, for simplicity and reliability I would probably say go with a traditional VHF/UHF combo, such as Winegard HD-7015 or HD7080P. Those would probably be considered "medium sized directional" antennas. You can see the spec sheets here:

http://www.winegard.com/offair/vhfuhf.htm

You can probably find those or something similar at Lowes. If you are interested in the Dayton channels, those antennas will more than likely be fine for those as well, but you most likely would need a rotor (or second antenna with A/B switch) in order to receive them reliably. I know you said that Dayton channels are a "bonus" but just wanted to point out that from time to time I enjoy an extra NFL game or two on Sundays, and there are situations, like over the weekend when WLWT-HD was out, or when for example WXIX gives FOX programming the "Bearcat Bounce," it's nice to have a backup channel from Dayton. Of course you can always set up the antenna for Cincinnati and then add a rotor or second antenna with A/B switch later if you desire. It could even be that with the antenna aimed at Cincinnati, you get a few of the Dayton stations reliably... you won't know for sure until you try.

If you want to go the pro-installer route, I would recommend TNT Pictures. I used them to install my VHF/UHF combo + rotor at my new home last year and am very happy with the result (happy enough to never sign up for cable or satellite like I thought I would).

fgrogan

11-27-07, 03:17 PM

What road are you near on 48? - Shottmann, Butterworth, Baxter??

Baxter.

planet_bill

11-27-07, 04:04 PM

fgrogan,

Be sure they give you an HR20 (which have been discontinued), they may only have
HR21's (which don't have OTA tuners).

Nitewatchman

11-27-07, 08:06 PM

Have been monitoring WXIX-DT occasionally between 7pm~8:06 PM tonight(tue), and haven't seen any problems ....

jimp2244

11-27-07, 09:27 PM

Have been monitoring WXIX-DT occasionally between 7pm~8:06 PM tonight(tue), and haven't seen any problems ....None from around 9 to 9:30 either

jim tressler

11-27-07, 10:18 PM

jim tressler

11-27-07, 10:27 PM

fgrogan - you are a steelers fan, but we'll let that slide for now. I am a few miles away from you near the 22/3 and 48 intersection. I use a winegard sensar for the cincinnati stations (directv brought it to me a few years ago) and a channel master cm 4221 for dayton with an a/b switch - both work fine for what they do. The sensar is cheap, but it works fine for cincinnati - which i am about 21 miles out and high on the hill.. for dayton however, it will not work. I have the cm for dayton - about 29 miles out. The CM works great for all dayton stations except for the wb or cw or whatever it is.. (forget the channel #) Now if I point the cm towards cincinnati, some will tell you the cm will (should) not pick up wcpo dt as it is vhf 10 becuase thats what the specs say.. well.. it works just fine for me.. so long story short.. its late and I am tired.. but, the cm will be fine if it is pointed towards cincinnati and it will work with dayton as well if you have a rotor.. if you dont want a rotor, get two cm's and an a/b switch. of course your mileage will vary, but it should not vary by much.. and all of this is subject to change when wkrc moves to digital vhf 12 from the 31 or so they are at today :) Go browns!! Hello,

I just purchased a new Sony KDL 52XBR4. So far the picture is awesome. I have the DirecTV rep coming today to upgrade my existing dish and receiver to HD and HD DVR. I specifically requested a HR-20 model HD DVR so that I can integrate OTA. I'd like to have it as a alternative to the compressed DirecTV signal as well as a backup, esp for rain fade, etc.

When I purchased the TV late Saturaday night (great deal at HH Gregg), I also picked up a indoor amplified RCA brand antenna to test out the local OTA signal. The XBR4 has a HD tuner and cable input. I did a check at anntennawb.org and aimed the indoor antenna in the general direction of the Cincinnati locals (no compass avaiable). I'm a little disapointed in the results, the best signal seems to be from the Dayton NBC channel so far. The Patriots-Eagles game was awesome (the signal/image, not the teams! Go Steelers!). The WLWT signal cuts in and out with a lot of pixilation. Most of the other locals aren't much better. We have a lot of tall trees in our backyard.

When we built the house 4 years ago, I pre-wired the entire place, and I have a dual RG-6 bundle of wire in my attic specifically to address addtional antennas (beyond the 2 dual runs for the DirecTV dish already being used). So, I'm thinking to put a rood top HD antenna up to use with the new TV as I mentioned at the beginning.

What kind do you suggest? I am located about 1 mile north of Loveland on Ohio RT-48 on top of a hill, but with tall tree's behind me. 2 story house. My main interest is the Cincinnati channels, getting Dayton or anything else isn't a big deal, nice to have at best. I'd like to keep the cost down if possible, but I don't want to do it half a**ed either. I was thinking of connecting the outdoor antenna to a home run location in my basement, use a 4 way distribuation amp and send the signal to the new HD unit and prepare for more TV's in the next year or so.

Sorry for the long post.

Nitewatchman

11-27-07, 11:15 PM

Now if I point the cm towards cincinnati, some will tell you the cm will (should) not pick up wcpo dt as it is vhf 10 becuase thats what the specs say..

What I would say is that anyone planning on using a UHF only antenna for VHF reception(CM4228 on Hi-VHF ( NOT CM4221) being a notable exception in some circumstances) + trying/expecting to acheive reliable VHF reception with it is greatly reducing the chances of acheiving success/achieving reliable or adequete reception of VHF stations, basically because the antenna is not only not designed for VHF reception but also because it doesn't actually perform very well on VHF (VHF-lo ch 2-6 especially) .....

And that is why I do not/cannot usually recommend to someone UHF Only antennas for VHF reception(again, CM4228 and Hi-VHF being one notable exception in some cases) ..... That does not *mean* it won't work well in some (or many) situations or isn't "worth a shot" if someone wants to try it, especially in strong signal areas, especially if you put the antenna outdoors, and and especially for ch 7~13(especially for example, regarding a CM4228, for ch 10 ) .... *if it doesn't* work out, they'll have to either switch to a VHF/UHF antenna, or add a seperate VHF antenna to the setup with use of a VHF/UHF combiner(such as CM#0549) or via the use of seperate VHF/UHF inputs available on some preamps ....

jim tressler

11-28-07, 08:51 AM

like I said... works for me .. but anyones else mileage will vary!

jimp2244

11-28-07, 10:29 AM

We will get a total of 5 NFL games this week, all in HD. OTA-only viewers will get 4 games (will get CLE at AZ game from WHIO). Cable-only viewers will get 5 games (will get MNF game). FOX has the double-header this week.

Sunday Day Games:

1pm CBS (12 WKRC) San Diego at Kansas City^
Dick Enberg, Randy Cross

1pm FOX (19 WXIX, 45 WRGT) Seattle at Philadelphia
Kenny Albert, Daryl Johnston, Tony Siragusa

4pm FOX (19 WXIX, 45 WRGT) NY Giants at Chicago
Joe Buck, Troy Aikman, Pam Oliver

4pm CBS (12 WKRC, 7 WHIO) Cleveland at Arizona*
Greg Gumbel, Dan Dierdorf

Sunday Night Football:

8:15pm NBC (5 WLWT, 2 WDTN) – Cincinnati at Pittsburgh
Al Michaels, John Madden, Andrea Kramer

Monday Night Football:

8:30pm ESPN – New England at Baltimore+
Mike Tirico, Ron Jaworski, Tony Kornheiser, Michele Tafoya, Suzy Kolber

+Cable Only
*Bonus game for OTA viewers
Changes in Blue

Notes: Received confirmation from WKRC that they are showing CLE at AZ, despite numerous TV listing services showing SD at KC. I have updated the listings above to reflect this and subtracted a game from the total. (updated 11/11)

I will post announcers as soon as they are available. (Update - Announcers posted)

As always, let me know if any information is incorrect or needs to be updated.

CincySaint

11-28-07, 12:16 PM

Jimp:

According to the506.com which is pretty reliable, WKRC is showing Cle-Arizona at 4pm.

LINK (http://www.the506.com/nflmaps/2007-13-CBS.html)

jimp2244

11-28-07, 01:03 PM

Jimp:

According to the506.com which is pretty reliable, WKRC is showing Cle-Arizona at 4pm.

LINK (http://www.the506.com/nflmaps/2007-13-CBS.html)Yep. I'm currently trying to figure out where JP Kirby got that information, as all of the sources he says he uses are saying SD at KC. As soon as I can confirm a change I will update it.

plughplover

11-28-07, 02:59 PM

Having a VERY difficult time getting in direct contact with the LG engrs. Am stuck with a non-technical intermediary relaying dribbles of info. Arrgghhh!

*Supposedly*, LG has tried 'working with' TWC with no success, has now brought CableLabs into it, and if that isn't successful will bring the FCC in on it.

They seem to be focused on VCT and the mux of two OTA broadcasts. I'm still not sure however, that LG understands the problem, given the limited info I've supplied - unless of course they know a LOT more about the problem than they are admitting to...

Sigh... I may try another email to the rep with more info and hope it gets to the engr...

fgrogan

11-28-07, 03:17 PM

the hr20-700 is no longer made by pace, but the last reports suggest the hr20-100 is still being produced. Good luck getting an hr20 - they are hard to find and depend on the local installer. The only way to insure an hr20 is to get one at best buy or cc and have d* credit your account.. this was after they brought me to hr21's a few weeks ago.

jim

DirecTV was here yesterday for the install. Even thought I've called everyone involved in the process (and the process was all messed up many differnt ways), they delivered a HR21. They said that no more HR20's were availble, etc. So I am SOL in that dept. I'll document my whole "experiance" with the DTV folks later. Lets just say its rather disapointing, but in the end, they did directly replace my old 2 LNB dish with a new 5 LNB and didn't make too big of a deal about that (climbing on the roof and keeping it where the old one was..out of sight). Multi-switch replacement went fine. and system started up with good signal and great picuture right away.

But the TV itself has a cable/anntenna input, so I can still use a OTA, its just not quite so integrated. But about 2 clicks and I'm to the antenna input on the XBR4.

blbrodbeck

11-28-07, 03:25 PM

jimp2244

11-28-07, 03:54 PM

I've noticed lately every night at 2 AM WCET analogue & digital channels go off the air for the night. Sometimes one of the channels is right in the middle of a show when this happens. It seems that they shut down every night. I think this has been going on for a few weeks now. I don't think this is their normal way of doing things. Does anyone know what's going on here. I'm viewing OTA. A lot of times they don't broadcast any program info. on their digital channels too. Hopefully they'll get this all straightened out.WCET has been going off air during the late night/early morning hours for many many years. They do this to conserve power as not too many people are up watching PBS at 1-6am... A few pages back Jeff posted his observations of the days and times this happens these days:
WCET around here on a nightly basis, and only roughly 1/2 the nights in a week. Well, early mornings actually -- Verified last week it happens tue, wed, thur 01:00~06:00, not sure about early Fri morning, the rest of the time they're up 24/7.

As for as not sending the program data, that has been bugging me as well. I assume they're aware of it, but it's been like this for some time so it's obviously not a priority for them to get it fixed, even though, if I recall correctly I think it is mandated by the FCC that they send current and future programming information at least a certain number of hours into the future.

6speed

11-28-07, 03:58 PM

According to SatelliteGuys the HR-21 users will be offered a USB OTA tuner possibly as soon as 1Q 2008

Splicer010

11-28-07, 04:06 PM

unless of course they know a LOT more about the problem than they are admitting to...

And you would be surprised by this how???;)

Nitewatchman

11-28-07, 06:53 PM

As for as not sending the program data, that has been bugging me as well.

For past several weeks or more, what I noticed was while they were sending it, for 48.1 it was only for 30 minute duration for each program such that you'd get it for the first 30 minutes of a 1 hour program, but all it would say for the next 30 minutes was "DTV program" .....

That seems to be "fixed" now, however, at least for tonight ....

For example Here's what TSreader shows from 48.1's EIT's for between 8~11pm EST tonight :

Starts: 11/28/2007 8:00:00 PM
Length: 01:00:00
Name: Wired Science
Description: Correspondent Josh Davis of Wired magazine investigates an Internet botnet attack on Estonia's banks and newspapers; host/field producer Ziya Tong delves into technology that is helping children with Asperger's Syndrome by translating facial expressions i
Descriptor: ATSC Caption Service Descriptor
ATSC Caption Service Descriptor:
Language: eng Format: Captions service 1
Descriptor: ATSC Content Advisory Descriptor
ATSC Content Advisory Descriptor:
Region 1 Rating: n/a Description: TV-PG

---------------------------------------------
Starts: 11/28/2007 9:00:00 PM
Length: 02:00:00
Name: Great Performances
Description: Eric Clapton Crossroads Guitar Festival Chicago Grammy Award-winning guitarist Eric Clapton presents the 2007 Crossroads Guitar Festival, recorded live in America's blues capital, Chicago. GREAT PERFORMANCES presents highlights from the blockbuster concer
Descriptor: ATSC Caption Service Descriptor
ATSC Caption Service Descriptor:
Language: eng Format: Captions service 1
Descriptor: ATSC Content Advisory Descriptor
ATSC Content Advisory Descriptor:
Region 1 Rating: n/a Description: TV-PG

jimp2244

11-28-07, 11:17 PM

^ Good to hear... lets hope it keeps improving.

jimp2244

11-29-07, 11:55 AM

Received confirmation from WKRC that they are airing CLE at AZ. Updated above listings.

Splicer010

11-29-07, 05:45 PM

Twice tonight (11-29-07) while watching the WCPO news in HD (114-31) the picture went to the CW (114-22) channel...without the channel being changed...Both video & audio from the CW channel were on WCPO channel...This is EXACTLY the same thing that happens with WLWT (105-1) and NBC WeatherPlus (105-31) everynight at 8PM...

This is the FIRST time I have ever seen this happen on a different channel realm other than the 105 channel realm...:confused::(

Nitewatchman

12-01-07, 10:49 PM

Speaking of WCPO-DT, I'm not sure how long it has been going on, but noticed the past couple of nights I'm getting "stuttering" video(appears like frames are being dropped by the decoder, audio is fine) from them on 9.1 during programming sourced from film(or 24p HD video, any 23.976fps source, really) with Zenith HDV420 decoder(LG early 4th generation chipset). Any other Video is fine(such as HD football currently).

It was a stuttering Mess last night via the zenith during "polar express" for instance, which was "smooth as silk" from WKEF-DT (and via Internal ATSC receiver/MPEG2 decoder in Sony KD34XBR960 HDTV via either WCPO-DT or WKEF-DT).... Haven't checked them all or spent any time yet looking at a stream from WCPO-DT during 24fps programming in something like DGINDEX but, so far don't think I'm getting this problem with other decoders(including as verified, the one in The Sony).

Looks just like what has happened before on occasion from WXIX-DT, WKEF-DT/WRGT and WTTE/WSYX Columbus - all 720p). Suspect its possible what is causing this may be that they may have an encoder setting such as "Repeat field detection" turned on, which "tells" your decoder to draw repeated fields rather than having the encoder send them .... Problem is, some decoders apparently don't do it (inlcluding my ZenithHDV420), and you also can't "fix this" with 3:2 pulldown settings on the display .. It even happens if you output 480i from the STB to a "old fashioned" analog TV via composite or svideo ...

If it's the same thing(which it certianly looks like) --- Turning off repeat field detection on WKEF-DT/WRGT/WTTE/WSYX's Harmonic Encoders (and whatever the setting is called/is involved for this on WXIX's encoder - JYDogg has worked with them on that) fixed this problem ...

Note: Given my lack of success at the time "communicating with" them concerning the 1280x360 "downsampling" issue they had for a long time a couple of years ago(thankfully long gone and hopefully will stay that way), instead of trying to take that route this time around, figured I'd Instead post this info here in case it helps anyone else out who might be experiencing this issue or is in contact with WCPO about it/etc ...

jim tressler

12-01-07, 11:15 PM

jeff.. wcpo for me had some signal issues today.. but other than that its been ok.. wathcin big 12 cahmp right now.. looks fine

Splicer010

12-02-07, 02:44 AM

It was a stuttering Mess last night via the zenith during "polar express"Polar Express here was non eventful for me here off TWC...

Nitewatchman

12-02-07, 03:09 AM

^^^ it was noneventful for me as well OTA from WCPO-DT with every decoder I have except for the one in the Zenith receiver .... Of course, 9.2 weather from WCPO-DT is just fine as well, This isn't reception issue, no "dropouts" or signal glitches from WCPO-DT here, including with the zenith ....

I checked it tonight during "24" and "star trek"(both sourced from film) from WCPO-DT, video was still a stuttering mess on the Zenith. I suspect Its probably stuttering because All the repeated fields are not there because they are probably not being encoded at WCPO and therefore the frames involved are being dropped by the decoder in the Zenith since(unlike my other decoders) the decoder can't/doesn't know how to draw them properly if the actual data for them isn't sent by WCPO's encoder vs. a "flag" telling the decoder to redraw a field that's already been sent since these are repeated fields necessary to get 24fps material to 'work' with 720p/59.94fps. In addition to the Sony not having problems with this, Even the software Cyberlink or elecard/Mainconcept MPEG2 decoders I use on HTPC worked just fine/no stuttering/dropped frames w during "star trek"/24. I haven't checked my Hisense/USDTV box as only have it hooked up to my Dayton antenna currently, otherwise only the decoder in the Zenith is having problems with this ...

And, as I said before it was fine during the football tonight(except during promos such as for desperate housewifes(24fps)/etc) or the 9News or anything else that is 60fps or NTSC 30fps video, including with the Zenith decoder as film detection/repeat field detection setting/etc. on their encoder would not be "active" with that material, only during 24fps (telecined) source material ...

As noted before, I've had this happen before with other stations(again only on the zenith), we've talked about/discussed this issue here before(because it's happened at WXIX as well, including recently) as well as at some point in Dayton thread --- Concerning WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT and wSYX-DT/WTTE-DT I was in contact with their engineers about the issue and turning off repeat field detection on their encoder is what fixed the problem for those with decoders(such as the Zenith HDV420, and no that's not the only one that doesn't support this) which need the repeated fields sent by the encoder/won't draw the repeated fields on their own ...

jimp2244

12-02-07, 04:13 PM

Audio issues from WKRC-DT on the HD feed for the Browns/Cardinals game today. After about 3 game minutes, they switched to SD feed for about 15-20 seconds, then switched back to HD feed and the problem was fixed. Good attention by WKRC to notice and fix the issue. Did not have a chance to check WHIO-DT, so not 100% sure but I believe it was a WKRC only issue based on how the problem "appeared" to be fixed.

Bubster

12-02-07, 04:16 PM

jimp2244: Thank you for your weekly NFL tv roundup. You have no idea how much I appreciate this and I am sure others do to.

jimp2244

12-02-07, 08:17 PM

Bubster, No problem. I've been putting them together for myself and figured others might benefit as well. Glad to hear you're finding them useful.

Splicer010

12-02-07, 08:28 PM

I know I have thanked you before but I say thanks again...:)

jim tressler

12-02-07, 10:11 PM

The Sunday Ticket HD feed was fine..

Audio issues from WKRC-DT on the HD feed for the Browns/Cardinals game today. After about 3 game minutes, they switched to SD feed for about 15-20 seconds, then switched back to HD feed and the problem was fixed. Good attention by WKRC to notice and fix the issue. Did not have a chance to check WHIO-DT, so not 100% sure but I believe it was a WKRC only issue based on how the problem "appeared" to be fixed.

jimp2244

12-03-07, 12:26 AM

Noticed tonight on SOAS on WCPO-DT that it appears that while the main camera and the close-up camera for Popovich are correct HD, some of the other close-up cameras are SD and stretched (incorrect aspect ratios which make people look "fat"). Also the highlights from the Bengals game on the show were streched as well. After about 12:20am the audio sync was off as well...

jgaffin

12-03-07, 08:01 PM

biggblukat

12-03-07, 10:39 PM

I'm new to the HD world. I don't think I'm going to opt for the cable or satellite route (at least not for HD), but I'm having some trouble picking up the local signals. For whatever reason, WCPO (9.1, 9.2) is the only digital/HD channel I can pick up. I've tried to decipher some of the other posts on here and fix this problem on my own, but have been unsuccessful...you guys are pretty advanced. I live in Highland Heights, KY and will be moving to Fort Thomas, just a few miles down the road in a couple weeks. I'm using a set of cheapo rabbit ear antennas and think the issue may stem from this. Unfortunately, I do not own my residence and, therefore, I'm limited in my antenna options. Any advice would be greatly appreciated, as I'm intrigued by HD but can only look at Clyde Gray so much longer before I go insane.

Do you live somewhere you can put an antenna in your attic? Or an apartment? I live in Union, Ky, and use a cheap amplified external antenna outside on the roof(about 8"Wx17"T Bow-Tie chinese flebay special) and it works very well in getting 5.1, 9.1, 12.1, 19.1 64.1 and a few PBS, but when I used to live around Hebron in a condo, I could not even pull in the analog signals with a pair of rabbit ears.

Some guys here might recommend a good set of amplified rabbit ears, My neighbor across the street uses a small omni-directional external antenna in his closet and picks up just about everything I do except for 64.1. and 14.1 Were about 15 miles south of you so you might fair better.

A good place to start figuring out what size/type of antenna you need is at "antennaweb" (search in google, I can't post hyperlinks due to low post count)

Spent too much time reading here, every question answered in Cinci area without having to ask questions in last three years!

blbrodbeck

12-03-07, 10:52 PM

If all you can get is 9-1 & 9-2 that's because you must be using A VHF antenna only. Those are the ONLY 2 digital channels in our area that aren't on the UHF band. They're both VHF. All you need is to add on a decent UHF antenna. Then you should be able to get all of the other local channels too.

tyromark

12-04-07, 09:05 AM

The last poster is right, you need an antenna with better UHF reception; are your current rabbit ears ONLY "rabbit ears" without a UHF loop? If so, borrow or pick up a similar set with the loop ($6 at Big Lots, if nothing else) or try better options at greater trouble/cost. As far as height and distance, you're in an advantageous position in Highland Heights or Ft. Thos (unless you'r egoing to be down in one of those urban hollers some side streets in Ft. T seem to be) - it's close to the Cinti. towers in line-of-sight and has very good elevation. Try an unamplified indoor antenna before you'd plug in any kind of amplified one. After that, try a smaller combination UHF/VHF in an attic, outside a window on a deck pointing north (except for Channel 54) or some other indoor setting where you don't mind looking at it. I'm down in a hollow in Anderson, so I actually envy your high position for reception there..:o

mikemikeb

12-04-07, 11:12 AM

The best unamplified antenna IMO's the $25 Radio Shack 15-1868. Very nice dipole performance, and the fine-tuning knob's very helpful. I personally use one.

BTW, the FCC has approved the Clear Channel TV station transaction (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/television/news/e3i7fbfc47257d2db0d8933f8e6bd49ced9).

jimp2244

12-04-07, 01:32 PM

We will get a total of 7 NFL games this week, all but STL at CIN in HD. OTA-only viewers will get 5 games (will get 2 bonus games from WHIO). Cable/Dish-only viewers will get 4-5 games (depending on access to NFL Network). CBS has the double-header this week.

Thursday Night Game:

8pm NFLN – Chicago at Washington$
Bryant Gumbel, Cris Collinsworth

Sunday Day Games:

1pm CBS (7 WHIO) Oakland at Green Bay*
Kevin Harlan, Rich Gannon

1pm FOX (19 WXIX, 45 WRGT) St. Louis at Cincinnati FOX SD WIDESCREEN
Pat Summerall, Brian Baldinger

4pm CBS (7 WHIO) Cleveland at NY Jets*
Dick Enberg, Randy Cross

4pm CBS (12 WKRC) Pittsburgh at New England
Jim Nantz, Phil Simms

Sunday Night Football:

8:15pm NBC (5 WLWT, 2 WDTN) – Indianapolis at Baltimore
Al Michaels, John Madden, Andrea Kramer

Monday Night Football:

8:30pm ESPN – New Orleans at Atlanta+
Mike Tirico, Ron Jaworski, Tony Kornheiser, Michele Tafoya, Suzy Kolber

+Cable Only
*Bonus game for OTA viewers
$Requires service provider that carries NFL Network

Notes: Most of this is preliminary information, and some of it is educated guessing by me. Not 100% sure it will happen but if things work out as above, we'll get TWO bonus OTA games thanks to WHIO Dayton. Be sure to check back here later in the week as there very well could be updates.

Although CBS has the double-header, NFL blackout rules prohibit WKRC from showing the 1pm game because of the home Bengals game on FOX.

Once again this week, all AFC North games are available OTA.

I will post announcers as soon as they are available.(Update: 12/5 Posted)

Update 12/5: St. Louis at Cincinnati will be presented in FOX SD WIDESCREEN. It won't look as good as HD, but it will look much better than when CBS shows SD games. Fox uses SD cameras in 16:9 mode, so they will fill the HD screen. They have a very good upconverter that manages to fool a lot of people into thinking it's actually HD.

As always, let me know if any information is incorrect or needs to be updated.

UPDATES (12/5):
Confirmed WHIO 1pm game will be Oakland at Green Bay, removed "OR San Diego at Tennessee" from that time slot.
Confirmed WHIO 4pm game will be Cleveland at NY Jets.
Confirmed WKRC 4pm game will be Pittsburgh at New England.
Announcers posted.

UPDATE (12/6):
Added NFL Network game.

jgaffin

12-05-07, 01:46 AM

Thanks to everyone for their willingness to assist. It turns out I'm an idiot and simply needed to change the TV input from Cable to Antenna. I have no idea why the analog stations and VHF signal for WCPO were coming in fine. I do seem to be on a pretty good perch over here in KY. I'm getting all of the local stations and even a few from Dayton with a $15 antenna my fiancee's brother gave me. I absolutely love it, I can't wait for a football game or even March Madness to roll around.

Nitewatchman

12-05-07, 02:01 AM

I have no idea why the analog stations and VHF signal for WCPO were coming in fine.

Because Cable+OTA share the same channel numbers+frequencies on VHF, but not on UHF.

Analog "cable ready" tuners(with TV hooked up to antenna) can find UHF OTA analog stations when set to "cable" however, but on different channel numbers than if you have the tuner set for "antenna" ... For instance, if you have it hooked up to antenna WXIX 19 analog would show up on "19" if you have it set for "antenna", but on channel "70" if you have it set for "cable" ...

here's a handy chart that list all the OTA and Cable channel numbers and frequencies :

http://www.csgnetwork.com/tvfreqtable.html

I'm not entirely sure why ATSC/digital receivers find VHF digtial stations but don't seem to "Find" any of the UHF digital stations if you have it set to "cable"(at least any of them I've had) but are using an antenna, I do know mine only finds WCPO-DT (transmits on channel 10, remaps to 9.x) if set to "cable" as well, given that's the only VHF digital station In the area, currently ....

Nitewatchman

12-06-07, 01:21 AM

If "Dirty Sexy Money" is produced on film or 1080/24p (didn't watch it closely enough to make a good guess about that, but I suspect it's one of those), then looks like WCPO-DT has fixed their "stuttering video" issue during 24fps sources which I noted recently had been effecting some decoders(well at least one, my Zenith HDV420) ...

That was pretty quick! Thanks WCPO folks (or anyone who contacted them about it) ....

planet_bill

12-06-07, 08:21 AM

jimp2244, You might want to add NFL Networks Thursday games to you're list the rest of the season. I know it'll require yet another asterisk beside it.

planet_bill

12-06-07, 08:25 AM

... then looks like WCPO-DT has fixed their "stuttering video" issue during 24fps sources which I noted recently had been effecting some decoders(well at least one, my Zenith HDV420) ...

That was pretty quick! Thanks WCPO folks (or anyone who contacted them about it) ....

I hope that was all, the stuttering has been annoying lately, It would be real bad at times on Pushing Daisys, typically a stutter every 4 to 8 seconds it seemed.

Nitewatchman

12-06-07, 01:53 PM

jimp2244, You might want to add NFL Networks Thursday games to you're list the rest of the season. I know it'll require yet another asterisk beside it.

I was thinking the same thing ... But, Mostly selfishly, as that way his lists are 'all inclusive' for all the NFL games I get via OTA and E* ...

I hope that was all, the stuttering has been annoying lately, It would be real bad at times on Pushing Daisys, typically a stutter every 4 to 8 seconds it seemed.

Yeah, as I only checked it for a few minutes during "dirty sexy money", and they haven't had a lot of programming from 24fps sources the past couple of days, at least when I've had the chance to check it with the Zenith ...

As noted earlier, pretty sure the issue involved programming sourced from 24fps sources(such as film or 24p HD video) and an encoder setting for not sending repeated fields and some decoders that need the repeated fields actually sent/encoded rather than flagged to tell the decoder to draw them ...

Unfortnetly it seems the "default" setting on some of these encoders at the stations are for "repeat field detection=ON" (or "film detection=On/etc), so that anytime the encoder is reset(say if there's a power outage/etc), someone has to then turn "repeat field detection" off on the encoder .. And of course, since many decoders can draw the repeated fields just fine if they are not "sent" but are flagged properly, the problem will only be apparent on those decoders that need them to actually be encoded ...

jimp2244

12-06-07, 03:07 PM

jimp2244, You might want to add NFL Networks Thursday games to you're list the rest of the season. I know it'll require yet another asterisk beside it.

I was thinking the same thing ... But, Mostly selfishly, as that way his lists are 'all inclusive' for all the NFL games I get via OTA and E* ...I've reluctantly added NFLN games. ;) I figured I'll have to do it next week anyway when the Bengals play on Saturday night, although of course that game will be available on WLWT.

The main fundamental problem I have with NFLN is that they take a game away from the broadcast networks. Additionally, what do you tell a Bengals fan living in North Dayton, Columbus, Louisville, Lexington, etc. that can't get WLWT on Saturday night? That game should be available to Bengals secondary markets, just like it would be if the game were on CBS or FOX. Allow the secondary market affiliates to bid on the broadcast rights as well.

I don't have a problem with NFLN offering additional programming/games that a viewer would not normally get without it, but I do have a problem with them taking away games and now requiring subscription to their channel for viewers to access them.

jim tressler

12-06-07, 03:35 PM

lol.. like the $ indicator for NFLN.. but I agree with jeff.. those of us with ota and D* or E* get the nfln without the extra $ that cable wants to impose :)

jimp2244

12-06-07, 03:51 PM

lol.. like the $ indicator for NFLNI was wondering who would notice that first. :)
.. but I agree with jeff.. those of us with ota and D* or E* get the nfln without the extra $ that cable wants to impose :)My point is that Bengals fans in NFL-designated Bengals secondary markets should not have to pay to watch their team play. The fact that the NFL does allow primary market affiliates to bid on the NFLN games (as well as ESPN games) is good and I'm glad the NFL at least has that much right (unlike the Big-10 Network which doesn't give any OTA broadcast rights), but just the fact that they've taken something that used to be free and now put it on a channel that requires a subscription service bothers me. As an example, the Patriots' last game of the year will be on NFLN. If they are undefeated at that time I would be very interested in watching them play. Pre-NFLN, CBS or FOX would have made that game available to as many markets as possible. Now, the only way I could get it is to sign up for a pay-tv service that has NFLN. When/if it happens, I'll send the best message I can, which is to not pay for it.

Nitewatchman

12-07-07, 01:32 AM

I just thought since the list had the ESPN MNF game on there, the NFLN game should be listed as well, as then it's "all inclusive" for the NFL games available to most folks in Dayton/Cincinnati area(other than for D* Sunday ticket, don't think they'd need a "list") ...

planet_bill

12-07-07, 08:32 AM

mikemikeb

12-07-07, 02:38 PM

No matter whether or not you want to pay for NFL Network, if you get access to the channel, you will pay for it, one way or another.

The NFL wants $.75 from the cable company for every subscriber that has access to the channel. Doesn't matter whether or not a viewer wants to WATCH the channel, or if there's compelling programming on NFL Network whenever it may air, it's $.75/month/subscriber. To make matters interesting, the NFL insists that the channel's placed onto basic digital cable, and not just the sports package. Funny to think that more people have the basic digital package than the sports package. It's not so easy to cancel the basic digital package, because there generally are other channels that customers want there. I would think the NFL realizes that most who want the NFL Network want it just for the games, which NFL Network has only eight of each season, I believe. So, if the channel is on basic digital, they're protecting themselves from a) people not subscribing to the sports package in the first place, and b) people not subscribing to the sports package eight months plus out of the year to avoid paying for stuff they wouldn't watch. The NFL says that their channel should not be a "pay to view" channel, but I can't help to think if they can get their hands on more potential viewers, and therefore more money, by forcing their channel onto the basic digital tier, they'd attempt such a cheerleader attitude.

For the Big Ten Network within Big 10 territory like your area, it's $2/subscriber/month, and again, they want the channel to be on basic digital cable. Kind of ludicrous considering practically nobody will watch anything on that network except for the occasional games. But the Big Ten has its eyes set on the prize -- er, funds. Same with the NFL. In reality, this "basic digital cable or bust" mentality is an attempt at a money grab.

And so this comes down to: Where is this $.75-$2/month/subscriber going to come from? Well, the cable providers could absorb the cost, and doing it for a channel or two won't hurt. However, given enough channels, and enough hits, the cable companies will eventually have to raise the rates in order to pay off their overhead, otherwise, they will go broke. So, out of principle, the cable companies are going to get the funds from higher bills to the subscriber. If you get NFL Network for "free", specifically, if you get the channel with the basic digital package, you will still be paying more money for the privilege, only passively. That $$^#*%/month isn't pure profit for [insert cable company here]. And if the content providers' asking for, and getting, such heavy amounts of cash for so little compelling content (according to the ratings) leads to the bankruptcies of these cable and sat cos, well, the content providers, including the Big Ten and the NFL, will have killed the goose that laid the golden eggs.

jim tressler

12-07-07, 02:41 PM

you are exactly right mike... its a money grab pure and simple.. but.. if you want the nfl network then you have to pay for it one way or another..

Nitewatchman

12-07-07, 04:19 PM

Well I currently subscribe to AT100(SD only), E*'s cheapest "base" programming package, other than a cheaper "family-friendly" package they've added since I first started subscribing to them. And, in the 4 years I've had it(via an annual subscription, I only have 1 bill per year that way and so far they also give me one month "free"), it's went up $4 per month, but it's still under $30 bucks a month.

I do get NFLN via that package(it was "added" well over a year ago, as soon as NFLN and E* reached an agreement for carriage), as well as BTN(including the alternates) Currently. unless something has changed since I read about it I think I only have BTN via free preview which began as soon as BTN and E* reached an agreement around the time for the 1st OSU game on there earlier this year, through Jan 08, but not sure, and really don't care. I didn't count or "ask for" either one being added to my programming package's lineup, and I certianly wouldn't/won't subscribe to a higher "tier" package if I had to to get those, although I'm certianly not complaining at this point that they are there .... There are other channels on there I watch less ....

Other than a few minutes of a couple of the OSU games they've had on BTN, I have not watched the channel at all. I have watched a few of the "live" NFLN games, and even a couple of the replays, but I could certianly do without it ....

I primarily use OTA, and I'm certianly perfectly content with being OTA-Only, which I have been for most(36+ of 40 years) of my life .... My current Use of DBS is a very "secondary" and "supplementary" and really unnecessary thing. I probably won't be subscribing to any pay TV subscriptions at all if it goes much above 30 bucks a month for a programming package similar to what I'm currently getting. Actually, I'd like something for about the same price, but with HD versions "replacing" the channels I actually watch - which is certianly fewer channels than I actually have via AT100 ---- I'm certianly not going to pay $20 bucks a month MORE to "add" an HD package, even if I get it "free" for 6 months at first ..... I do have 2 receivers and pay ~$5 a month for "programming access fee" for the 2nd receiver(which seems fair to me), but I also won't do it if they were to "force" me into LiL(which I have no need for), or "nickel and dime me to death" on such things as receiver lease fees/DVR fees/etc, as I bought my current receivers/LNB/dish/etc.(for under $200 bucks for the SD receivers) and self installed, which has worked out nicely ...

terryfoster

12-08-07, 10:14 AM

For the Big Ten Network within Big 10 territory like your area, it's $2/subscriber/month, and again, they want the channel to be on basic digital cable. Kind of ludicrous considering practically nobody will watch anything on that network except for the occasional games. But the Big Ten has its eyes set on the prize -- er, funds. Same with the NFL. In reality, this "basic digital cable or bust" mentality is an attempt at a money grab.

It's really amazing how that number keeps inflating (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12201715#post12201715) every time someone argues against BTN.

FACT: Neither Comcast nor Time Warner have ever been presented with a proposal to pay that rate; Big Ten Network's latest proposals to them suggest a rate under $1 for subscribers inside the eight states and about a dime everywhere else in the country, for a proposed average cost nationally of about 30 cents.

This stand off is sadly not about the cost per subscriber, protecting the customer, or customer interest. It's really about the tier placement which impacts how much money each party stands to make.

Placing BTN on an analog tier will allow BTN to make a substantial amount of money where Comcast's and TWC's profit margins are small. Placing BTN on a digital sports tier will allow Comcast and TWC to make a substantial amount of money in equipment rentals and basic digital service fees on top of the digital sports tier fee. Also, don't think for even a minute that if BTN did agree to a digital sports tier placement that their rate wouldn't be significantly higher to make up some of the revenue difference.

It's also about competition. Both Comcast and TWC own sports networks which they believe compete with BTN. So they are also looking for digital tier placement to separate this channel from their channels on the analog tier.

planet_bill

12-10-07, 08:49 AM

I enjoy both BTN and NFLN. I find myself watching NFLN in the off season from time to time. Going back to a carrier without it won't happen anytime soon. Would I pay for it on a sports tier? Maybe. It would need to be bundled with ALL the other sports channels including BTN with ALL the alternates on game days. Just my take on it.

jkbert2

12-11-07, 09:27 AM

I am new to the high def world and I have a couple of questions maybe some of you can help with. I have Dish Network and I was wondering when they will start broadcasting cincy locals in HD? Also, I have a OTA antenna and I get every channel except for WCPO. I know it is a VHF and i have a antenna capable of doing UHF and VHF. What gives?

bearcatscott

12-11-07, 09:32 AM

On the Charlie Chat last night (Dish's CEO show) they presented a graphic that showed Cincy HD locals will be added in 2008. Of course, they also said the HD locals would be added in 2006. I predict that they will be added before Feb 17, 2009 when the analog stations go away.

Splicer010

12-11-07, 10:13 AM

Also, I have a OTA antenna and I get every channel except for WCPO. I know it is a VHF and i have a antenna capable of doing UHF and VHF. What gives?

Usually it is due to antenna positioning if the UHF and VHF are being combined...WCPO is the most difficult to pick up from my experience and an antenna rotator is mandatory to simplify the process as much as possible...

jimp2244

12-11-07, 11:13 AM

jkbert2

12-11-07, 11:18 AM

the zip code is 45215. I have the antenna in my basement, but near a window.

jimp2244

12-11-07, 11:23 AM

the zip code is 45215. I have the antenna in my basement, but near a window.So Wyoming/Lockland area? What kind of antenna is it? Basement is going to be a tough sell anyway though. Might want to physically move the antenna to different locations in the basement (or upstairs if at all possible). A long coax cable can be helpful with this. It would help to know what kind of antenna though.

Splicer010

12-11-07, 11:53 AM

So Wyoming/Lockland area? What kind of antenna is it? Basement is going to be a tough sell anyway though.

Agreed...Depending on were the antenna gets moved to a pre amp or amp may be neccessary...

jkbert2

12-11-07, 12:20 PM

this is the antenna i am currently using
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2253765&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032205&parentPage=family

jkbert2

12-11-07, 12:21 PM

Actually Reading, on the outskirts of Blue Ash.

Bubster

12-11-07, 12:41 PM

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/12/11/cincinnatis-cet-moving-to-24-hour-hd-broadcast/

rwatson73

12-11-07, 01:12 PM

I am looking for a signal strength meter.. what is a good one? I live in Middletown(45042) I want find out why is it so hard to get Cincy stations.. I can get a few in HD but mostly analog and even I get a Louisville (WAVE) analog Station...

and looking for all the (#-x) and how many sub stations go along with it.. can anyone help or where I can find this info?

jimp2244

12-11-07, 01:30 PM

I am looking for a signal strength meter.. what is a good one? I live in Middletown(45042) I want find out why is it so hard to get Cincy stations.. I can get a few in HD but mostly analog and even I get a Louisville (WAVE) analog Station... What kind of antenna do you have? As specific as you can be...

and looking for all the (#-x) and how many sub stations go along with it.. can anyone help or where I can find this info?Check the first page of this thread. As for number of subs, this is from memory:

5-1 WLWT-DT NBC
5-2 WLWT-DT NBC Weather Plus
9-1 WCPO-DT ABC
9-2 WCPO-DT Weather Tracker
12-1 WKRC-DT CBS
12-2 WKRC-DT CW
14-2 WPTO-DT PBS
14-3 WPTO-DT PBS
14-4 WPTO-DT PBS
14-5 WPTO-DT PBS
14-6 WPTO-DT PBS
19-1 WXIX-DT FOX
19-2 WXIX-DT (currently empty, formerly The Tube)
43-1 WKOI-DT TBN
43-2 WKOI-DT
43-3 WKOI-DT
43-4 WKOI-DT
43-5 WKOI-DT
48-1 WCET-DT PBS HD
48-2 WCET-DT CET World
64-1 WSTR-DT MyNetworkTV

Sorry I'm not 100% what the labels are for the WPTO and WKOI subchannels.

jimp2244

12-11-07, 01:36 PM

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/12/11/cincinnatis-cet-moving-to-24-hour-hd-broadcast/
Cincinnati's CET moving to 24-hour HD broadcast

Posted Dec 11th 2007 7:12AM by Darren Murph
Filed under: Industry, Cable, OTA, New content

CET, the PBS station serving Cincinnati, Ohio, is getting set to switch over to a 24-hour HD broadcast. Currently, WCET-TV broadcasts some "prepackaged HD shows from PBS," but starting on December 17th at noon, it will boast high-definition content around the clock. Additionally, it's making CrEaTe -- "an American Public Television channel [currently] accessible only by Time Warner Cable (partly owned by Time Warner, parent company of AOL, which owns Engadget) viewers" -- available to anyone who can receive the HD signal. Beginning next Monday, programs will be simulcast in analog on channel 48, in HD on channel 48.1 (OTA), on channel 948 on Time Warner Cable and on channel 916 for those with Insight Cable. As for satellite viewers? They'll have to "contact their provider to arrange for the CET digital signal."
I'm trying to figure out exactly what they mean. WCET has had HD 24/7 for years now, granted it is just HD straight from PBS. Do they mean that WCET-DT and WCET analog are going to show the same content now, including local content? Also, I thought they just got rid of CrEaTe on the OTA signal, and replaced it with CET World. Are they putting CrEaTe back OTA now????

jimp2244

12-11-07, 01:43 PM

this is the antenna i am currently using
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2253765&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032205&parentPage=family
That antenna, from what I can see in the picture, does not appear have any features that would be conductive to VHF reception (such as dipole, rabbit ears, etc.) I do see that it mentions VHF in its frequency range, but it does not give any gain numbers (other than amplifier gain). Also, because this antenna has amp built in, make sure you have the power inserter set up correctly and that it is plugged in and powered. Many amps will actually make reception worse if not powered.

If you have a chance, try some traditional rabbit ears for WCPO... I bet you have better luck.

What are the results for analog 5, 9 and 12 with this antenna? Do those come in crystal clear? Any ghosting or snow?

Nitewatchman

12-11-07, 01:49 PM

Check the first page of this thread. As for number of subs, this is from memory:
s.

Don't forget WCVN-DT 24 :

54-1 - KET1
54-2 - KET2
54-3 - KETED
54-4 - KETHD (+soon to be KETKY, currently KETHD 8pm~12am, and SD KETED 12am~8pm like KET3)
54-5 - KETSD
54-6 - KETSD

All Cincinnati(including WCVN-DT which transmits from Taylor Mill, KY in most cases)+Dayton digital stations should generally be fairly easily receivable from 45042 (where I live) with appropriate outdoor antenna setup+proper aiming(requires rotor for best results from dayton+Cincinnati with a single antenna solution, WKOI generally requires different antenna aiming as well for best results from 45042 area ) ...

Exceptions might be if there are any receive location specific difficult terrain or multipath issues involved ...

As I posted in a response to an earlier post RWatson can go here and punch in his address+antenna height and get a decent predication of what the signal levels should be at his location :

www.tvfool.com

Update: I think he had said earlier he was using a RS-190 on roof(hopefully properly aimed at Cincinnati(generally south or with rotor), If he posts his results from tvfool we would have a better idea concerning whether or not terrain issues/etc. might be a problem ...

Nitewatchman

12-11-07, 01:53 PM

Do they mean that WCET-DT and WCET analog are going to show the same content now, including local content?

That's how I read it. I had also read some time ago a submission to FCC regarding the 3rd DTV proceeding(currently underway) by APTS or PBS that indicated PBS was going to transistion/"combine" their NPS (national program service - what you generally see "primetime" PBS on analog PBS stations) with the PBS HD channel by Fall 2008 ...

Are they putting CrEaTe back OTA now????

That's how I read it .... Wouldn't be surprised if it's HD+2SD multicast, if they do that, hopefully they will transcode PBS HD to 720p (like KETHD does), which is more multicast friendly ...

jkbert2

12-11-07, 02:14 PM

what kind of antenna do you guys have?

Nitewatchman

12-11-07, 02:18 PM

For everything except Dayton, I use a antennasdirectXG91 for UHF, Winegard PR5030 for VHF/FM, that antenna setup is with rotor and tower mounted(XG91 is at 37ft, PR5030 is at 32ft).

For Dayton, I use a 25 element UHF yagi(Not sure of the brand/etc it's an old antenna) side mounted to tower at 28ft. Right now, I also have a CM3010 in the attic I use for VHF analog 2+7 dayton reception which is combined with the feed from the Dayton UHF antenna. Seperate coax run is used for Dayton antenna, I use a a/B switch to switch between the antenna setups(so I don't have to use rotor at all for Cincinnati+Dayton stations).

I'm 27~39 Miles from Cincinnati/N KY stations and 12~13 Miles from Dayton stations, located in a small, steep, heavily forested valley with terrain issues in most directions. Reception is excellent of all Cincinnati/Dayton stations, even from the analog LP stations, no dropouts on digital/HD stations, I've been watching them for over 6 years now. Multipath or receiver "AGC" issues for WDTN-DT 50/WKEF-DT 51/WPTD-DT 58 are an issue with Dayton antenna any lower than the "dayton" UHF antenna, especially if temp is above 32F or so and leaves are off trees and wind is blowing tree limbs around.

Used to use a RS-VU210 VHF/UHF combo with rotor(in same place the XG91 is now), that worked great as well ...

It would be overly complicated+probably generally unnecessary to describe the VHF/UHF combining(and seperation of VHF TV/FM) and setup for amplification(and notch filtering as I knock down a few of the stronger dayton analogs on the "main" antenna setup(XG91/Pr5030) so I can acheive better results for dx'ing weak signals and for WAVE 3(WDTN 2 is STRONG here) and columbus reception when antenna is aimed "nearly" towards dayton) /+distrubiting the signals from the antenna to multiple devices(about 12 or so of them at last count, DTV receivers(including in PC's, TV's, VCR's, FM receivers/etc) in 4 different rooms which you probably wouldn't read anyway so I won't go into all that ...

jimp2244

12-11-07, 02:20 PM

what kind of antenna do you guys have?
I have a rooftop combination VHF/UHF antenna with rotor (so I can get Dayton as well as Cincinnati stations) similar to Winegard 7015 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=HD-7015)

jimp2244

12-11-07, 03:48 PM

Good news. For the first time ever, a Bengals v Browns game will be in HD on December 23.

jimp2244

12-11-07, 04:01 PM

We will get a total of 7 NFL games this week, all in HD (in fact every NFL game in the country is HD this week). OTA-only viewers will get 5 games (will get NFL Net simulcast from WLWT). Cable/Dish-only viewers will get 6-7 games (depending on access to NFL Network). FOX has the double-header this week.

Thursday Night Game:

8pm NFLN – Denver at Houston$
Tom Hammond, Cris Collinsworth

Saturday Night Game:

8pm NFLN (5 WLWT) – Cincinnati at San Francisco
Bryant Gumbel, Deion Sanders, Marshall Faulk

Sunday Day Games:

1pm CBS (12 WKRC, 7 WHIO) Buffalo at Cleveland
Gus Johnson, Steve Tasker

1pm FOX (19 WXIX, 45 WRGT) Green Bay at St. Louis
Kenny Albert, Daryl Johnston, Tony Siragusa

4pm FOX (19 WXIX, 45 WRGT) Philadelphia at Dallas
Joe Buck, Troy Aikman, Pam Oliver

Sunday Night Football:

8:15pm NBC (5 WLWT, 2 WDTN) – Washington at NY Giants
Al Michaels, John Madden, Andrea Kramer

Monday Night Football:

8:30pm ESPN – Chicago at Minnesota+
Mike Tirico, Ron Jaworski, Tony Kornheiser, Michele Tafoya, Suzy Kolber

+Cable Only
*Bonus game for OTA viewers (none this week)
$Requires service provider that carries NFL Network

Notes: All games have now been confirmed, although as always things could change.

As always, let me know if any information is incorrect or needs to be updated.

Not 100% sure but I am assuming that Saturday night's NFL Network game which WLWT 5 is simulcasting will be available in HD on WLWT-DT as it was last year, and as ESPN games have been on WKRC-DT. And again, just in case, no need to go to a bar to watch the Bengals on Saturday night as they will be on channel 5.

Unfortunately, as listed above, Cris Collinsworth will not be part of the Bengals/49ers broadcast on Saturday night.