Cincinnati, OH - HDTV [Text View] - Page 36

Nitewatchman

12-12-07, 02:25 PM

Well, that's not what I had in mind as a typical urban/suburban antenna.

It's pretty typical for wha many people should be using for reliable all channel VHF/UHF reception(with antenna aimed *at* the stations they want to receive, with rotor if necessary or desired), although most can get good reception with a bit smaller versions of the same (or similar) design. This is the sort of receive antenna(mounted outdoors) our system of OTA broadcasting in the U.S. is(DTV as well as analog) *designed* for use with .... That's not saying indoor antennas/less directional antennas don't work for a lot of people, they do, but you can't count on it ....

Yeah, looks like that one has decent F/B ratio - but look at the tvfool predicted signal strengths for Cincy vs Dayton at his location; Cincy DTV approx -80db to -90db vs Dayton DTV mostly -45db to -55db ie roughly a 35db difference. Even with 20db F/B, Dayton still has ~15db stronger signals.

You can't just go by the numbers. For instance, Uncorrectable multipath is just seen as extra "noise" to the receiver. For most intents and purposes, the antenna is out of phase for the signals it's receiving which it's not aimed towards, although it's going to be less "out of phase" if it's aimed exactly 180 degrees "off target" than is the case if it's aimed, say 165 degrees off target.

Then, there are the adjacent channel/receiver selectivity issues (such as WXIX-DT 29/WRGT-DT 30), and also, when enhanced signal propagation occurs, a co-channel distant signal in the direction the antenna is aimed might easily cause harmful interference occasionally to the local signal you're trying to receive off back side of antenna.

Concerning the latter, For example, with antenna aimed South(towards Lexington/Cincinnati) It's common here for me to see WLEX 18 Lexington(analog) through WBDT-DT 18 Dayton's "digital" snow(WBDT's low power+pattern "helps" with that too - they only send about 1.5KW ERP in my direction), but it's never caused problems with WBDT-DT reception with the antenna aimed properly at Dayton .... Another example, with antenna aimed southanalog WNWO 24 toledo(sometimes quite clearly), for instance with antenna aimed towards them, so when that happens there would be no no way I could receive WCVN-DT 24 off the "back side" of the antenna, although reception is just fine in these circumstances wit antenna aimed at WCVN-DT ... I can also almost allways "see" WBNS 10 Columbus to some extent "through" WCPO-DT 10's digital snow when antenna is aimed at columbus ....

Still feasible, particularly if the UHF corner reflector wings are detachable; that will greatly change the F/B of the UHF section, which is all the Dayton DTV signals.

You would not want to remove those. It not only chages the F/B ratio, but also the performance across the entire band. Without the corner reflector, the UHF portion then becomes more of a "real Yagi", which will only be very effective on a narrow range of frequencies (a channel or two) ...

Yes, multipath might be an issue, if he has hills or something between him and Cincy which will reflect Dayton into the gain side of the antenna. But he does not seem to be in the same sort of valley you are.

Multipath is very unpredicatible, you don't have to have hills or a water tower nearby to have problems with it, and like I said above, misaiming the antenna will induce multipath on it's own due to the antennas design .... (because portions of the signal are arriving at slightly different times at the "back" of the antenna(the "reflectors" if it were a pure yagi antenna - you don't want that), and even the VHF section of antenna will effect the UHF reception to some degree vs the front) ...

Hey, it's worth a shot, and easy to test...

Concur with that, although chances are good that although it might look like it is working well when he makes the antenna "adjustment" , he might start having problems on certian stations received off the "back side" when such things happen as an aircraft flys over, or the wind starts blowing the tree limbs around, or the leaves come back on trees, ... In fact, have a feeling he might have already tried(or is trying something like that currently), though.

In fact, given the reception results he is reporting(such as with WAVE) , I expect it's possible the antenna is currently aimed Southwest or West or so and he is receiving the Dayton stations off the "back side" of it ... It's also possible it is aimed at Dayton(or generally N/NE) and he's picking up WAVE 3 off the "back side", but that's pretty doubtful as analog tuner probably wouldn't have good enough selectivity to allow him to "see" WAVE 3 with antenna aimed right at WDTN 2 strong signal (mine doesn't, which is one reason why I knock down WDTN audio+video carriers significantly on my "main" antenna setup(for dx'ing/etc) ...

You know, I've wondered how many people look at those "wind swept" LPDA designs and get "front vs back" wrong :D

Quite a few I'd guess ... For instance, There's a VU190 (or similar) on the roof of a business a few miles to my S , the "back" of it is aimed right at Dayton ..... The front (pretty much), right at WKOI /WPTO(analog only for the latter, the digital transmits from WXIX tower in Cincinnati) and (almost) Louisville .... With WHIO-DT 41's null in their transmit antenna pattern right towards us and WDRB 41 Louisville in that direction, it doesn't take much in the way of "enhanced signal propagation" to see how that can be a problem .... But, maybe they have it aimed that way for best reception of WKOI or WPTO 14(analog), I don't know

The reason the VHF elements are swept forward on those antennas involves those antennas design, which is taking advantage of a 3to1 harmonic relationship between Low-VHF(54~88MHZ - ch 2-6) and Hi-VHF TV bands(174~216MHZ - ch 7-13), such that the low-VHF elements are used for Hi-VHF reception -- They're swept forward because otherwise, above the fundamental frequency of the 1/2 wavelenth dipoles on lo-VHF, the pattern changes to more of a "clover" pattern vs. the desired figure "8" pattern .... It's probably explained more clearly in this article :

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/On-RF/antennas.shtml

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In any case, if aiming antenna at Cincinnati doesn't work well for receiving all the Dayton stations off the "back side" for him --- with use of a rotor(or manual rotation of antenna) or a 2nd antenna setup(with seperate feedline/A/B switch would be best) There *should* be a way for him to aim antenna at Cincinnati and "scan" the cincinnati stations into memory, then aim antenna at Dayton and either do a different sort of "scan" which won't "erase" the Cincinnati channels, or to "manually" scan in/add each station w/o erasing the cincy channels found in the scan ... If the latter(or if your receiver allows you to "scan in" a single channel), he'll have to input the actual/Physical channel #'s used for transmission, as the receiver doesn't have the channel remapping info from any given station until it achieves a "good enough" signal for a lock .... At least *all* the receiver's I own (or have owned) have a way to do that, but they don't "tell you about it" very well in the user manual/etc ... There has been some more in-depth discussion and info on this in the OTA FAQ thread in hardware area ...

--------------------------------------------

chrisirmo

12-12-07, 03:42 PM

This article makes a little more sense than the Business Courier one:

CET To Simulcast On HDTV

You asked for it. You've got it.

People have been asking CET to synchonize its HDTV feed with its analog Channel 48 broadcast, so the change will be made Monday. The HDTV and analog programs will be simulcast 24/7.

For years, CET has broadcast PBS' high-definition feed, shows shot for HDTV. So HDTV owners never knew what to expect to see. Like tonight when CET's HDTV airs "The Marines," "Indian Pride" and "Wired Science" instead of "P.O.V." and "Are You Being Served?" Or when CET airs "History Detectives" and "Nova" in the afternoon instead simulcasting "Curious George" and "Arthur."

"We had some beautiful HD programs, but they were not the same ones that viewers were watching on Channel 48. Now our schedule will be similar to all of the local broadcasters in Cincinnati, providing the same programs at the same time on both the analog and digital channels," says Susan Howarth, CET president and CEO.

Programs not shot in HDTV – like those old "Lawrence Welk Shows" – will be converted to fit the 16:9 wide-screen aspect ratio. It's all a preparation for Feb. 17, 2009, the government mandated deadline for the transition to digital TV (and end of analog broadcasting).

CET also announced that the CrEaTe channel -- which was bumped from the digital airwaves to only Time Warner Channel 949 a few years ago -- will return as a CET digital broadcasting channel next year. The public TV station needs about $100,000 in new equipment to broadcast both PBS World and CrEaTe as digital channels, says Jack Dominic, vice president and chief operating officer. So don't expect to see it until next fall, at the earliest.

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/tv/2007/12/cet-to-simulcast-on-hdtv.asp
My only concern is what they mean by "converted to fit the 16:9 wide-screen aspect ratio." I sure hope that doesn't mean "stretched."

jimp2244

12-12-07, 07:11 PM

Finally got lucky today and was able to pull in some distant analog signals from Indianapolis. Watched 5-6pm news from Indy! Noticed that WTHR 13 has some talent from WLWT... Ann Marie Tiernon and Emily Longnecker. Pics attached for WISH-TV 8 (CBS affiliate, Indy), WRTV-TV 6 (ABC affiliate, Indy), and WTHR-TV 13 (NBC affiliate, Indy).

No luck with any digitals yet but I'll keep trying...

jimp2244

12-12-07, 07:11 PM

Additional pics from WXIN (Fox 59 Indy) and WTTV (CW 4 Bloomington).

Nitewatchman

12-13-07, 02:34 PM

No luck with any digitals yet but I'll keep trying...

Nice pics, -- You'll get there, the pics are certianly much better with DTV DX, even with a weak signal .... (BTW, slight correction Fox Indy is WXIN 59/DT 45 ) ... It does help with DTV DX to have a receiver which will allow direct tuning to a RF (physical) channel # with some sort of meter that will show you some indication of a DTV signal even if it's well below S/N threshold required for a lock .... For instance, Hard to say exactly, but A DTV signal will "make the meter move" on my Zenith HDV420 receiver if it's something like 7~10db below threshold ....

Attached are a few digital DX screenshots(not from recently) as received here ..

WKPT-DT 27, Kingsport TN (remaps to 19.x) This is an SD subchannel they had at the time ... - 250 miles, as received 8/21/2005 10:45am

WTVF-DT 56, nashville, TN (remaps to 5.x) (SD subchannel) - 263 miles - pic from 9/19/2005 - (note - pic taken with digital camera of a direct-View CRT screen+it wasn't properly focused, that's why you see Moire pattern )...

WBNS-DT 21, Columbus, OH (remaps to 10.x) - 78 Miles - This screenshot is From earlier this year, around the time they first started their HD news ... (Note I've started "collecting" TS samples from DX DTV stations, that's where this came from via a screen grab, but resampled this to smaller size from 1920x1080 in order to attach it here ...)

planet_bill

12-14-07, 08:14 AM

I hope that was all, the stuttering has been annoying lately, It would be real bad at times on Pushing Daisys, typically a stutter every 4 to 8 seconds it seemed.

Still getting video stutter with this program. It seems as if frames are not being displayed. Every 8-12 sec. there seems to be some sort of video skip. The audio is just fine.:confused:

jdhughes63

12-14-07, 05:54 PM

I am getting a sound stutter and interference lines that accompany the stutter on TW909 right now. When I go to SD it is OK. Also when I go to Ch 7 news in HD on OTA it is fine. Also noticed it on TW912 last night. Thought it was my set but not sure now since OTA HD seems to be fine.

Now checking Ghost Whisperer. On TW912 I get sound stutter and interference lines. TW12 is fine. Went to OTA 12.1. Also fine with clear and interference free pcture. I guess it is TW or perhaps by decoder box or interference on the street.

Stuttering and pixelization has now spread to some lower digital but non HD channels. TW-10 is really bad. An analog set wired dorectly to cable (without a box) shows acouple of horizonal thin whte lines that roll up the screen. Could it be thatv this interference on the cable translatesinto pixel boxes on an HD set?

Nitewatchman

12-15-07, 02:10 AM

Still getting video stutter with this program. It seems as if frames are not being displayed. Every 8-12 sec. there seems to be some sort of video skip. The audio is just fine.:confused:

No video stuttering here from WCPO-DT lately on the Zenith during programming shot on film or 24p HD video ... Haven't checked it during "pushing daises" however.

Took a close look/made comparisons of the encoded(I think) frames of a couple of clips captured during "Men in Trees" and the show that was on after that from both WCPO-DT and WKEF-DT from ABC HD feed tonight --

With the tools I'm using (such as DGindex/Decode+virtualDub(mod for MPEG2) +a simple Avisynth script, Per the info Here from DGdecode manual :

http://neuron2.net/dgmpgdec/DGIndexManual.html#FieldOP

*IF* its the case that when viewing/stepping through the individual frames in Vdub from a DGindex created D2v file created with "Ignore pulldown flags" selected(*which* according to the info in the manual seems to be the case) vs. a D2v file of the same clip created with "honor pulldown flags" selected :

It appears Both WCPO-DT and WKEF-DT(at least during the clips I checked) are encoding all the frames/fields (720p/60), during programming sourced from film/24fps sources ... including repeated fields ... In other words, currently, it looks like the frames that are a 232323 repeating pattern are "already encoded" from both WCPO-DT/WKEF-DT (during these shows tonight at least) rather than them having the encoder set to just send RFF flags for the repeated fields -- The latter which I believe is probably what WCPO-DT was likely doing a couple of weeks ago or so which caused the "stuttering" on my zenith decoder(audio fine, same ABC HD from WKEF-DT fine at the time) ..

as, the frames "match up" and are the same when I step through them one by one whether I "ignore pulldown flags" or "honor pulldown flags" ...

What I think is interesting is(and I've noticed this sort of thing before), stepping through a few minutes of clips from both WCPO-DT/WKEF-DT from the HD programming tonight -- A LOT of it was frames in a repeating 2:3 pattern as you might expect for 24FPS material being broadcast as 720/60p ... HOWEVER, there were places (from both WCPO-DT and WKEF-DT) where you might have when there was some fast action occuring where you might have as many as 10 or 12 frames together that don't repeat, regardless of whether or not I "honor pulldown flags" for the decoding .. such as something along the lines of 32322111111111121132/etc/etc ....

tbenson81

12-15-07, 05:49 PM

jdhughes63

12-15-07, 07:08 PM

I dont know about you, but my 909 and 912 use the same frequency so if there are problems on one channel, there will be problems on the other if its QAM related

the best bet would be to go into diagnostic mode on your cable box and tune to channel 611.

Check to see what the BER is and the SNR for channels 909 and 912

SNR should be above 33 or so. If its not - you may run into problems. I am guessing this is what is causing you this problem as it has happened to me before. My 909 and 912 are fine right now

Tony

It is not just 909 and 912. It is all through out the range. 10 is bad on the lower channels. Only happens on digital. When I route it to the TV bypassing the box and search for analog then they all have a rolling horizontal bar. Must be noise on the line from the outside box.

Tw comes Monday. In the meantime I can get local HD over OTA. And I can get analog cable directly to the TV (bypassing the box) The rolling small line is tolerable more than the pixel problem using digital.

Splicer010

12-15-07, 08:18 PM

Damn this is a b-e-a-utiful picture!!!:D

rlp2955

12-15-07, 08:28 PM

Hey all, I noticed over the last couple months that I am now receiving STO on channel 657 on DirecTV. Does anyone know if that is now a standard channel in the base programming? If so, does that mean I will now get all of the Indians games?

I am a long time subscriber to the Extra Innings package to watch the Tribe...so I just want to make sure I know what to do in 2008.

I am assuming I will continue to get the base STO programming and then the games will be blacked out in the Spring? I couldn't find anything online about this channel being added. I don't have a regional sports package either.

If this isn't the right forum, can you point me to the correct one? Thanks.

JunkyardDogg

12-15-07, 08:40 PM

Damn this is a b-e-a-utiful picture!!!:D

But why is the channel 5 logo so big and so far into the picture! It is obnoxious.

Bubster

12-15-07, 08:45 PM

But why is the channel 5 logo so big and so far into the picture! It is obnixious.

So the downconvert for SD viewers doesn't truncate it.

Splicer010

12-15-07, 08:58 PM

But why is the channel 5 logo so big and so far into the picture! It is obnixious.

What is obnoxious is the way the Bungles are playing...;)

BuckNut

12-15-07, 09:00 PM

I am one of the licky ones who can get the Bengals game from multiple sources. I have DISH and can get the game via NFLHD in Mpeg4 and OTA on 5-1 in Mpeg2.

Just a couple of observations:

1. As JunkyardDogg pointed out the channel 5 logo is obnoxious and distracting.

2. The game is not originating in 5.1 yet channel 5 is upconverting it

3. Picture quaility: After watching the whole 1st quarter and switching bewtween broadcasts I have to give the nod to OTA 5-1. It is not a huge difference but just a bit better. Please keep in mind the differences in delivery methods and the fact that channel 5 HD runs a sub channel.

So, if anyone else can A/B the game.... what do you think?

mlbUC

12-15-07, 09:15 PM

On E* the whites seem to really be bright... especially on the Bengals uniform.

BuckNut

12-15-07, 09:21 PM

The whole game looks a little dark to me overall.

mlbUC

12-15-07, 09:23 PM

Field looks dark, no doubt, but the whites see really white on the Bengals uniform. Maybe it is just my setup.

ThoraX695

12-15-07, 09:24 PM

So the downconvert for SD viewers doesn't truncate it.

It looks like there's a separate feed for SD and HD. I just noticed that the Channel 5 logo for the HD feed went from the SD logo and position to the smaller HD logo and position.

microbob

12-15-07, 09:24 PM

I am one of the lucky ones who can get the Bengals game from multiple sources. I have DISH and can get the game via NFLHD in Mpeg4 and OTA on 5-1 in Mpeg2.

Just a couple of observations:

1. As Junkyard dog pointed out the channel 5 logo is obnoxious and distracting.

2. The game is not originating in 5.1 yet channel 5 is upconverting it

The 5 logo is smaller now...They always run their audio in 5.1 it shouldn't be that way but it is. If you notice the volume is low during the local commercial breaks.

The picture quality is very good considering they have 5-2 running.

BuckNut

12-15-07, 09:27 PM

I agree.

I just commented to mlbUC that I thought they had moved the logo since the beginning of the broadcast.

Also, I still think the Mpeg4 compression is fairly impressive.. althought it doesn't quite beat OTA Mpeg2 with a subchannel...

cadet502

12-15-07, 10:04 PM

Bubster

12-16-07, 12:03 AM

I sure would rather see the possible blizzard game Sunday between the Pats and Jets than the Browns game simply because of the impending weather.

jkbert2

12-16-07, 08:39 AM

Question. I have over the air antenna. I am getting a reception signal of 99% usually then it drops down to 86 or 76 and kind of craps out. why?
It is driving me nuts. Last night the same thing with the Bungal game. I never had a problem before. I do have a indoor antenna. I wonder if the win has anything to do with it.

Bill R (# 2)

12-16-07, 10:28 AM

Question. I have over the air antenna. I am getting a reception signal of 99% usually then it drops down to 86 or 76 and kind of craps out. why?

The problem is very likely multipath and, yes, the wind could have something to do with it (blowing large tree branches convered with snow or ice around).

Sometimes, just moving the antenna a few inches can solve the problem.

plughplover

12-16-07, 01:25 PM

mlbUC

12-16-07, 03:47 PM

I sure would rather see the possible blizzard game Sunday between the Pats and Jets than the Browns game simply because of the impending weather.

I thought the same thing... we lucked out and the blizzard was in Cleveland.

rlp2955

12-16-07, 03:51 PM

For whatever reason my local HD channels are not accessible. I don't get any error message...just a grey or black screen. Did it right in the middle of the Browns/Bills game. I get the SD local channels fine. Looks like satellite 99b signal strength is 0%?

Splicer010

12-16-07, 04:33 PM

Latest on my LG saga...

Whilst waiting for LG to supposedly 'work with TWC' to resolve the wlwt/ket mux issue, I pursued the "vchip firmware" upgrade (see 'Public Notice' at http://us.lge.com). Tech came out Thurs with laptop and did the upgrade.

Looking through the service manual, schematic, etc, it looks like there are a few programable 'things' in the TV. The vchip firmware upgrade is to the 'main' software (a pair of 2MB flash chips). The service manual lists these as "V3.03.1"; my set had "V3.04.1"; the upgrade took me to "V3.07.1". (There is also a 'micom' with "V1.20", an EPLD, and a 256 byte EDID)

The V3.07.1 upgrade DID add a new item on the Vchip/Lock menu.

The V3.07.1 upgrade did NOT fix my wlwt/ket mux problem (oh well).

The V3.07.1 upgrade introduced a NEW problem -- now the set completely locks up whenever I tune to WBDT-DT (rf18/id26). The only way out of the lock up is to power the set down and power it back up (not just a remote control power off, but disconnect AC power for 30 sec).

When I power it back up, of course it is still tuned to that channel, but from power up it will actually start decoding it and 'stay alive' long enough for me to tune to a differant channel - however shortly afterwards it will lock up AGAIN, and require ANOTHER power down/up. But since the second power cycle was tuned to a differant station, I can now use the set again after the power up (unless/until I tune to WBDT-DT again). For now I've removed WBDT-DT from the channel scan list so I can't accidentally step to it, and I guess I'll be on the phone with LG again on Monday.

This is getting ridiculous. Oh, and my 1 year warranty expires today.

What channel is WBDT???

Also don't remember if I mentioned this or not...but the way I watch WLWT-DT after 8PM...like SNF...is I tune to 105 before 8PM and when KET switches and I lose WLWT-DT I simply retune to 105 using the remote...Then the second time I lose it...I just hit the last channel button on the remote and I'm good to go...Now if I leave the 105 channel realm...that means I lose WLWT until midnight...

Has worked well for me and is acceptable as long as NBC has what I want to watch...Generally I watch Thursday night NBC...the wife and I love Earl, the Office, ER...and watch SNF and that works because usually the news is on after when all the other networks the news is over...

Now if I HAVE to see something on WLWT at 9 or 10PM but don't want to watch what is on before it then I bite the bullet and just switch and rescan to use the antenna...

And...finally we now get TBS-HD...Albeit a stretched picture but looks OK...Problem is the audio...Either there is no audio or I get 'blips' of audio...This on channel 116-1 but it also is on 116-769...Picture but no sound...:confused:

Hope you have a Merry Christmas my friend!!!:D

plughplover

12-16-07, 04:50 PM

What channel is WBDT???
Thought I made that clear; WBDT-DT is Dayton OTA channel 18 (RF) with psip ID 26.

It is Dayton's 'CW' outlet.

Splicer010

12-16-07, 04:54 PM

Thought I made that clear; WBDT-DT is Dayton OTA channel 18 (RF) with psip ID 26.

It is Dayton's 'CW' outlet.

Oh...THATS what you meant by rf18...Sorry...I didn't even know a channel 18 even existed there...Well at least you aren't missing much...;)

terryfoster

12-16-07, 04:55 PM

rlp2955

12-16-07, 05:03 PM

jim tressler

12-16-07, 08:36 PM

hd locals via directv are out here too.. ota just fine though :)

jim tressler

12-16-07, 08:39 PM

STO will be blacked out all times for us down here unless you subscribe to the sports package which will get you everything but the tribe games. If you subscribe to extra innings and the extra innings broadcast is using the sto feed, then sto (hd) should be available.

Hey all, I noticed over the last couple months that I am now receiving STO on channel 657 on DirecTV. Does anyone know if that is now a standard channel in the base programming? If so, does that mean I will now get all of the Indians games?

I am a long time subscriber to the Extra Innings package to watch the Tribe...so I just want to make sure I know what to do in 2008.

I am assuming I will continue to get the base STO programming and then the games will be blacked out in the Spring? I couldn't find anything online about this channel being added. I don't have a regional sports package either.

If this isn't the right forum, can you point me to the correct one? Thanks.

upgrade-itis

12-16-07, 08:39 PM

so are your locals out too? When I was looking at the satellite strength on 99b, it looks like only the odd number transponders are coming in. Even numbers are 0. But I am not sure if that is how it usually reads or not. I am still not getting any of the locals in HD...but no error message either. Just black screen.

Its happening to me as well. Again at 7:50. It has to be a D* issue. Seems ironic with the snow/ice/wind. They must be doing some tweaking as I'm getting x721 message on MHD 332; and I have all of the HD packages.

Nitewatchman

12-16-07, 10:38 PM

I didn't even know a channel 18 even existed there...Well at least you aren't missing much...;)

They have CW HD.

Andy.S.lee has added a online browser to www.tvfool.com for his Google Earth/Longely Rice coverage maps, here is WBDT-DT predicted coverage area :

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=80&q=call%3dWBDT%26type%3dD

blbrodbeck

12-16-07, 10:53 PM

KET-HD Ch. 54-4 has been airing a station ID screen for a few hours now. No programming. I have OTA.

jim tressler

12-17-07, 08:17 AM

did you resign up for the hd extra pack? check hdnet movies and see if you are getting it.. if not may need to visit directv.com an add the hd extra pack.

Its happening to me as well. Again at 7:50. It has to be a D* issue. Seems ironic with the snow/ice/wind. They must be doing some tweaking as I'm getting x721 message on MHD 332; and I have all of the HD packages.

jwd45244

12-17-07, 09:01 AM

The issues with DirecTV and the HD locals where not just in Cincinnati. A number of people had issues in other cities as well.

Nitewatchman

12-17-07, 08:15 PM

For those that are missing the PBS HD programming from PBS HD feed that doesn't "fit" the programming schedule for WCET analog channel, note that WPTD-DT/thinkTV16 (digital=RF 58) Dayton has been airing PBS HD feed 24/7 the past several days. And they actually do broadcast 24/7 OTA.

Don't know how permanent it is. As I mentioned earlier, I do know PBS had said in a submission to FCC regarding 3rd DTV review that by 2008 they plan to "combine" their HD feed with their NPS feed. I have noticed that lately(past few months or so) they've been sending "Anitiques roadshow" 4x3 SD upconverted on the PBS HD feed (such as currently), wheras they didn't used to have anything on there(that I ever noticed anyway) that wasn't either HD or 16x9 widescreen ....

Unfortunetly for HD PQ during bandwidth demanding content, WPTD-DT has been mulitcasting 3 SD services 24/7 the past several days as well (it was 4sd+1 HD at first, late last week, used to be HD 6pm~6am+2 SD, and 4 SD 6am~6pm) ...

Also, Noticed earlier "newshour" was HD at 7~8pm on ThinkTV16HD, didn't think that was starting until January. (Assume it was HD at 6 on WCET-DT as well, but I didn't check it).

jimp2244

12-17-07, 08:33 PM

Also, Noticed earlier "newshour" was HD at 7~8pm on ThinkTV16HD, didn't think that was starting until January. (Assume it was HD at 6 on WCET-DT as well, but I didn't check it).Thought I read that it was starting today on the Programming area of AVS.
EDIT #2: Just found the thread; here is the quote:Lehrer To Go HD - 12/12 - "The Newshour With Jim Lehrer" will go high-def on Monday, 12/17. "The new format will deliver superb video resolution and higher-quality audio, and will result in a richer experience for the increasing number of viewers who watch the program on an HD television set," according to PBS. The public TV news program is produced by Channel 26/ WETA, at its facilities in Shirlington..... Are NOVA and Frontline now going to air in different time slots than they used to on WCET-DT? (Just checked CET schedule on their web site, and if that is correct, NOVA will still air on Tuesdays at 8pm. Frontline will air who knows when... I never really understood how they scheduled that one, just let DVR grab it, although it seemed like it usually aired on Tuesdays at 9pm). Also, if CET web site schedule is correct, CET and CET-HD are not exactly the same. I see several show timeslots are the same but others are different still...

Edit/Update: I'm also wondering... with this "synching" of the analog and HD channel, does that mean we're losing the PBS HD feed shows? I had always just watched the HD channel so this new schedule is going to take some getting used to from me... plus it seems as though there's going to be less HD now (at least for a while). I guess we still have ThinkTV but as you said their PQ really suffers from those subs.

Nitewatchman

12-17-07, 09:19 PM

Thought I read that it was starting today on the Programming area of AVS.

Thanks, I haven't had a chance to browse programming area for a while. It was months ago that I'd read Newshour was going HD in January(or so) ...

Also, if CET web site schedule is correct, CET and CET-HD are not exactly the same. I see several show timeslots are the same but others are different still...

Maybe they haven't updated it yet. think they've been pretty clear that they will be exactly the same ...

I'm also wondering... with this "synching" of the analog and HD channel, does that mean we're losing the PBS HD feed shows?

Yes, from WCET-DT, but not from WPTD-DT(which again is currently airing PBS HD feed 24/7 since sometime last week instead of just 6pm~6am) ..

WCET-DT has also been sending SD upconverts for quite some time between 6pm~7:30pm(which matches their analog channels' programming during that time period) while different HD programming (stuff such as "desert speaks/etc.) airs on PBS HD feed(and on WPTD-DT Dayton) ....

Now, though, if WCET 48 has "Lawrence welk", or "sewing with nancy" on, we'll get a SD upconverted version of that on 48.1, but you can still see PBS HD feed at those times time on WPTD-DT Dayton(at least right now) .... Did notice WCET-DT/48.1 had all the educational SD programming today which aired on the analog as upconverted SD on 48.1 ...

I guess we still have ThinkTV but as you said their PQ really suffers from those subs.

Although they don't have all the HD/SD widescreen programming PBS has on PBS HD feed, I like the way KET4HD does it, as the PQ is better overall than either WCET-DT(excepting for a couple of months in nov 2002 when WCET-DT gave PBS HD "everything") or WPTD-DT. And it's mostly all HD (widescreen SD upconverts are very rare) per their "own" schedule which is shown here :

http://www.ket.org/dtv/programs.htm

blbrodbeck

12-18-07, 11:08 PM

I'm not sure if anyone's said this yet, but it looks like Ch. 14 WPTO is also now broadcasting on 14-6 in HD 24/7.

Nitewatchman

12-19-07, 12:38 AM

^ WPTO-DT was running upconverted SD on 14-6 earlier today(a couple of times when I checked it between about noon and 8pm)+4 SD services. It was the same programming on 14-6 which was on 14-3 at the time.

jimp2244

12-19-07, 08:40 AM

We will get a total of 9 NFL games this week, all in HD except BAL at SEA. OTA-only viewers will get 6 games (will get 2 bonus games - WHIO and WRGT). Cable/Dish-only viewers will get 5-7 games (depending on access to NFL Network). CBS has the double-header this week.

Thursday Night Game:

8pm NFLN – Pittsburgh at St. Louis$
Bryant Gumbel, Deion Sanders, Marshall Faulk

Saturday Night Game:

8pm NFLN – Dallas at Carolina$
Bryant Gumbel, Cris Collinsworth

Sunday Day Games:

1pm CBS (12 WKRC, 7 WHIO) Cleveland at Cincinnati
Greg Gumbel, Dan Dierdorf

1pm FOX (45 WRGT) Green Bay at Chicago*
Joe Buck, Troy Aikman, Pam Oliver

4pm CBS (12 WKRC) Baltimore at Seattle (NOT HD)
Bill Macatee, Steve Beuerlein

4pm CBS (7 WHIO) Miami at New England*
Jim Nantz, Phil Simms

4pm FOX (19 WXIX) Tampa Bay at San Francisco
Dick Stockton, Brian Baldinger

Sunday Night Football:

8:15pm NBC (5 WLWT, 2 WDTN) – Washington at Minnesota
Al Michaels, John Madden, Andrea Kramer

Monday Night Football:

8:00pm ESPN – Denver at San Diego+
Mike Tirico, Ron Jaworski, Tony Kornheiser, Michele Tafoya, Suzy Kolber

+Cable Only
*Bonus game for OTA viewers
$Requires service provider that carries NFL Network

Changes in BLUE

Notes: Listings are confirmed as above, so we'll get 2 OTA bonus games this week.

Note that Baltimore at Seattle airing on WKRC at 4pm is NOT HD. It will be awful-looking CBS 4:3 SD upconvert. However, it seems like a good decision for WKRC to opt-out of the assigned MIA/NE game because:
1.) We get to see Shaun Alexander, whose Seahawks aren't on TV much around here
2.) MIA/NE most likely won't be much of a game
3.) Ravens are an AFC North team, and generally WKRC will show AFC North rivals when possible
4.) With WHIO showing MIA/NE, we get more game variety.

What do you know, the meaningless NE game still gets Jim Nantz and Phil Simms.

As always, let me know if any information is incorrect or needs to be updated.

jim tressler

12-19-07, 10:19 AM

good work as always jimp!! Have the NFLN games sucked this year or what!!

Go Browns!!

upgrade-itis

12-19-07, 11:44 AM

all except for Dallas vs. GB.

jimp2244

12-19-07, 01:52 PM

Announcers posted.

NFLN games have sucked for the most part, but they have to. CBS, FOX, and NBC would be very upset if NFLN picked the best games. They're supposed to take mediocre games and spotlight them. Of course that's not what NFLN wants you to believe. They want you to believe that you are missing out on the best games if you don't have their channel. It's a similar situation with NBC Flex scheduling. NBC doesn't get to pick the best games... they get to pick the best games that are left over after FOX and CBS protections are in place. FOX and CBS each get to protect a certain number of games, and NBC cannot take a protected game from them. But of course, NBC wants you to think that they have the game of the week every week!

Also, it's of course hard to predict which games will be good match ups and which won't, before the season starts. Notice that Cleveland has no prime time games this year. Actually Cleveland has the least number of HD games of any team this year as well. They're lucky to be playing Cincinnati this week, huh? :)

jimp2244

12-19-07, 02:10 PM

Confirmed WKRC showing Baltimore at Seattle at 4pm. Again, this game will not be in HD. Miami at New England can be seen on WHIO at 4pm in HD.

squall4008

12-21-07, 08:03 PM

i am using a Phillips MANT510 which has a VHF tuner but it won't pick up WCPO HD 9.1 but i get all of the UHF stations perfectly any idea why?

thanks for any advice

ThoraX695

12-22-07, 11:54 AM

i am using a Phillips MANT510 which has a VHF tuner but it won't pick up WCPO HD 9.1 but i get all of the UHF stations perfectly any idea why?

I have a friend with a MANT510 and he had problems getting WCPO's digital channel (10) too. We ended up turning down the antenna's amplification then playing with the rabbit ears. Perhaps repositioning the antenna would help too. Good luck!

spikor

12-23-07, 06:34 PM

IF the Tube is no longer available on 19.2 why doesn't WXIX put other programming on there. If nothing is available leave it blank for now.

Splicer010

12-23-07, 06:46 PM

The Tube is dead...WXIX cannot just have a dark channel and is the reason for the Tube info screen...It is my understanding WXIX is looking for appropriate programming...

mikemikeb

12-23-07, 07:02 PM

In addition, the way the Fox splicer is programmed, it allows for one subchannel without affecting HD bandwidth. The subchannel is encoded at whatever bitrate is left after HD encoding (HD video is usu. max-capped @ 16 mbps, and rarely passes 15.5 mbps). Here in DC, WTTG-DT is subchannel-free, yet has ~3mbps of null packets where a subchannel would normally be.

spikor

12-23-07, 07:24 PM

I should of not put IF I should of put since
Since the tube is no longer available on 19.2
I know the Tube is no longer in existance...dead...
I wonder where I can find a 50 ft extension pole so far no luck...
Ace Hardware...No
Radio Shack...No
Solid Signal...No
Channel master... No ...cannot order direct thru them either...
Sky Walker... No... have 30 ft. and 40 ft. but no 50 ft.
I want a 50 ft. pole that way if i need to extend it all the way to 50 ft i can but probably only need to go to 40 ft but If I ever move or need to use it here. I can go all the way to 50ft. I am up around 35 now before I was 40 ish probably 42 to 43 I had a Pole running thru a Tower that I could raise or lower but the wind took care of that one day when I was at work and the Night before I could not lower it because it got up (the wind)at night and I could not climb the tower to lower it. At least with a 50 ft extension pole I can adjust the height IF and when I need to. The Antenna i am usinfg is a Channel Master 3671 not as good personally i think as the old Radio Shack V/U 190 I believe that was the one I had.

J L McCoy

12-24-07, 03:39 PM

I just installed channel master 4221 (4bay) in middletown, oh 45042. It's a chimney mount about 30ft high. I get station 14.4 (208deg) at 96-100% as per my tv siginal meter. All other stations from cincinnati are very good. Examples of siginal strength from cincinnati (200deg(station locations)=76-80s/strength) (203=80-84) (205=90-96) (208=96-100) (209=84-88).
Dayton stations are another matter, most stations are @ 23deg, I don't get any of them as digital. I do get channel 7 whio analog very good, but no 7.1.
Could this antenna be modified, or any ideas other than a rotator?
Hope this makes sense, and thanks in advance for help.

blbrodbeck

12-24-07, 05:35 PM

Merry Christmas everyone. I've enjoyed the discussions here, since I joined a few months ago. I've learned a lot here. Happy New Year too.

- Bill

Nitewatchman

12-24-07, 10:41 PM

Dayton stations are another matter, most stations are @ 23deg, I don't get any of them as digital. I do get channel 7 whio analog very good, but no 7.1.
Could this antenna be modified, or any ideas other than a rotator?

First, I'd try aiming antenna at dayton temporarily and doing a channel scan and see what you get from Dayton. If that turns out well(which "generally speaking" it should) a Rotor or, if you don't care about WKOI/DT, WPTO analog or WWRD-LP Centerville(more like bellbrook really), seperate Dayton/Cincinnati antennas on seperate feedlines with A/B switch before receiver to select between them is your best bet.

I'm not sure if you can remove the reflector screen from a CM4221, which would make it bi-directional(but also compromise it's performance in general, especially regarding rejection of multipath and for VHF reception*) but I've heard of folks who have done that with a CM4228 with good results from UHF stations at 180 degrees seperation.

* - Meaning if your receiving WCPO-DT (ch 10RF/9.x PSIP VCT major/minor channel # - note VCT=PSIP Virtual Channel Table) now, there's a good chance you won't after you remove the screen. And, also keep in mind WKRC-DT (currently UHF 31RF/12.x PSIP VCT) will be moving to VHF 12 on or sometime soon after 1/17/2009 .... The way it looks right now, those will be the only 2 in Cincinnati/Dayton on VHF after analong shut off (WCPO-DT is the only digital station In Cincinnati/Dayton on VHF currently), the rest will be on UHF, unless some of the LP's or any new stations that might come around "someday" to the area end up on VHF ...

Merry Christmas everyone.

Yes, Merry Christmas all !

J L McCoy

12-25-07, 08:22 AM

Nitewatchman, I am very new to understanding antenna designs but with all the help and links I'm learning something’s,
I had a thought, any idea how reception would be affected if say the reflector was moved down so the top bowtie was not affected and then possibly install a reflector on the opposite side only at the top?
Merry Christmas and thanks to everone.

Nitewatchman

12-25-07, 06:02 PM

^ Again, first I'd try it with CM4221 "as is" aimed at Dayton to see if it works well for Dayton reception. If it doesn't, then it's likely not going to work for both Dayton+Cincinnati with the screen removed, either. A couple of the Dayton digital stations(WHIO-DT+WBDT-DT most significantly) have directional transmitting patterns, and to the SW of them we are in their biggest null - Shouldn't be a problem with outdoor antenna as close as we are to them, but if there are other issues involved that are specific to your receive location(such as terrain obstructions) it's possible you may need something better/higher/preamp/etc. than a CM4221 to receive them anyway. If you haven't already done so, punch in your address here+sees what it says, as these predictions take the transmitting antenna pattern/etc. and terrain obstructions into account : www.tvfool.com

Now, on to your question The 4 bowties in a CM4221 are a "phased array" (4 single bowties "stacked" together), or in other words 4 antennas properly phased together to make 1 antenna ... Here is a good article that explains a bit of how stacking "works" : http://www.kyes.com/antenna/stackluge.html (CM has already "done it for you" of course in this case, "stacking together" 4 bowties into one antenna) ....

More bowties, more gain/more directivity, but if all you had was a single UHF bowtie/folded dipole(radio shack sells one of these for indoor use for a few bucks, they used to come free with most small TV's) without a reflector screen behind it(like the one from radio shack) then the bowtie becomes bidirectional, less resistant to multipath and probably less signal gain in "both" directions it's aimed as well ... The same is probably true for a CM4221 as well, except that the reflector screen may be more "integral" to the antenna's design and for the proper phasing of the 4 bowties together, therefore removing it or "changing it" may very likely result in not only less signal gain(even on UHF, probably less on some channels than others) and less resistance to multipath coming in from directions it's not aimed, also probably higher VSWR(voltage standing wave ratio) as well. I don't know if the reflector plays any part regarding the proper phasing/stacking of the 4 bowties together, it very well may ...

Keep in mind, Any modification to any part of the antenna is likely to to effect it's design and intended performance mostly in an unpredictable fashion, and often in an undesireable fashion, so I'm not really advocating you do that, and bi-directional antennas are often not usually a good way to go, anyway .... But, if you want to try it, there is some sort of chance it might work well for you for Dayton+Cincinnati UHF reception(There's probably a better chance with a CM4228 8 bay bowtie, only because as noted before, an AVSforum member in Arkansas in a similar situation with stations approx. 180 degrees apart has done it and it works for him) and it might be worth a shot, and, if you mess something up and can't get it "reattahced", at least CM4221's are fairly inexpensive to replace ....

So, in other words you would likely not want to remove the reflector from behind just the top two bowties, if you want to *try* to remove the entire thing+it results in something that actually works for Dayton+Cincinnati UHF reception for you but not for VHF, if all you're interested in is digital reception(not Lo-VHF analog or FM) add a seperate VHF-HI(ch 7-13) antenna (such as Winegard YA-6713) aimed at Cincinnati for WCPO-DT (and WKRC-DT after 2/9/07), you can use a VHF/UHF joiner/combiner such as CM0549 on the mast to combine the two antennas together onto a single feedline ... Several preamps(such as CM7778) also offer seperate VHF/UHF antenna inputs ....

So, Any way you look at it, you're probably going to either need a rotor or seperate Dayton/Cincinnati antennas(again seperate feedlines with A/B switch before receiver to switch between your Dayton/Cincinnati antennas) for Best reception ....

jimp2244

12-27-07, 09:04 AM

We will get a total of 6 NFL games this week, all in HD except Cincinnati at Miami. OTA-only viewers will get 6 games. Cable/Dish-only viewers will get 6 games. CBS and FOX both have double-headers this week.

Saturday Night Game:

8pm NFLN, NBC, CBS (5 WLWT, 12 WKRC, 2 WDTN, 7 WHIO) – New England at New York Giants
Bryant Gumbel, Cris Collinsworth

Sunday Day Games:

1pm CBS (12 WKRC, 7 WHIO) Cincinnati at Miami (NO HD)
Announcers TBA

1pm FOX (19 WXIX, 45 WRGT) San Francisco at Cleveland
Announcers TBA

4pm CBS (12 WKRC, 7 WHIO) Pittsburgh at Baltimore
Announcers TBA

4pm FOX (19 WXIX, 45 WRGT) Dallas at Washington
Announcers TBA

Sunday Night Football:

8:15pm NBC (5 WLWT, 2 WDTN) – Tennessee at Indianapolis
Al Michaels, John Madden, Andrea Kramer

+Cable Only (none this week)
*Bonus game for OTA viewers (none this week)
$Requires service provider that carries NFL Network (none this week)

Notes: All of this is preliminary. Changes and updates may occur later than usual this week because of Christmas and the flex schedule allowing later decision making for the final week. Be sure to check back here for any updates.

The 1pm CBS game between the Bengals and Dolphins will be the last NFL game ever not broadcast in HD.

There is no Monday Night Football game this week.

In a historic announcement, the NFL has caved into pressure from fans and politicians, and has announced that the Saturday night NFL Network game between the Patriots and Giants will be simulcast on NBC and CBS. NBC and CBS are paying nothing for the rights to the simulcast. The reason both networks have the game is because NBC exclusive rights to OTA prime time football, and since it's an AFC conference game, CBS has partial rights to the game as well. Both networks get to insert their own commercials. The last time a simulcast was done of an NFL game was Super Bowl I.

As always, let me know if any information is incorrect or needs to be updated.

jimp2244

12-27-07, 09:43 AM

Also an addendum to my above comment that CIN/MIA will be the last NFL game ever not in HD. FOX most likely will have 1 or 2 SD widescreen games (probably SEA at ATL at 1pm and STL at ARI at 4:15pm). Regardless, the Bengals/Dolphins game will be the last NFL game ever produced in 4:3 SD.

acs236

01-01-08, 06:08 PM

i am using a Phillips MANT510 which has a VHF tuner but it won't pick up WCPO HD 9.1 but i get all of the UHF stations perfectly any idea why?

thanks for any advice

I'm having the same issue with my Dish Network receiver. I'm able to pull in Dayton's ABC channel in HD (but barely, 65), and all of the other cinci channels, but NOTHING for WCPO. This is just using an indoor antenna, but I should be able to at least pick up something, right?

Splicer010

01-01-08, 06:33 PM

If you guys haven't seen this thread yet:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=966747

jimp2244

01-01-08, 08:51 PM

I'm having the same issue with my Dish Network receiver. I'm able to pull in Dayton's ABC channel in HD (but barely, 65), and all of the other cinci channels, but NOTHING for WCPO. This is just using an indoor antenna, but I should be able to at least pick up something, right?It depends on a number of things. First, WCPO digital is on VHF 10. For now all of the other digitals are on UHF channels. So you'll need to have an antenna that performs well enough on VHF. Second, your location. If you are north east Cincinnati, it may be difficult to pick up WCPO-DT because of co-channel interference from WBNS 10 analog out of Columbus. A properly aimed, more directional antenna with a good front/back ratio may help in that situation.

The first thing I would do in this situation is see how well you can get analog WCPO (VHF 9). Because 9 and 10 are adjacent channels, and they both come from the same broadcast tower, analog 9 should be a good indicator of what is going on on digitial channel 10 that you can't "see." If you get analog 9 with no snow and no ghosting/multipath, that is a good indication that you should do well on channel 10 as well (unless you're being affected by WBNS 10 Columbus as I mentioned above). You can use analog 9 to "aim" your antenna for best possible reception of WCPO analog, and then try WCPO digital and see if you have better luck.

Also, if you can mention your specific location and type/model of antenna that would be helpful.

Bill R (# 2)

01-02-08, 03:07 PM

blbrodbeck

01-03-08, 11:39 PM

Splicer010

01-03-08, 11:55 PM

DaveA28

01-04-08, 07:39 AM

If Ch. 19 can air the 10 O'Clock News at 10 PM on other cable channels when there are football games on, like tonight. Then why don't they also simulcast it on Ch. 19-2 so that those of us who don't have cable can still watch their News at 10 PM.

One problem is the bandwidth they gave to the Tube is probably a lot less than what they would want to give the newscast.

jimp2244

01-04-08, 07:46 AM

If Ch. 19 can air the 10 O'Clock News at 10 PM on other cable channels when there are football games on, like tonight. Then why don't they also simulcast it on Ch. 19-2 so that those of us who don't have cable can still watch their News at 10 PM.

That actually is a great idea and I think you may want to share it with WXIX either by email or a phone call or both...:)
Yes it is a good idea. I thought the same thing myself. The only issue I could think of is that the FCC requires a certain number of hours of E/I programming for each channel, and they may not want to have to do that on 19-2. I'm not sure what the rules would be though for a sub channel that is only used periodically to show newscasts or other preempted programming (such as if they would show FOX network programming on 19-2 when UC basketball was on 19-1. It certainly seems like it would be worth considering though...

One problem is the bandwidth they gave to the Tube is probably a lot less than what they would want to give the newscast.True although I'm sure having it in lower quality would be better than not having it at all.

jim tressler

01-04-08, 07:58 AM

At 720P there is usually enough bandwidth to go around so that the HD channel will not get bitstarved like it does on 1080i.

jimp2244

01-04-08, 09:57 AM

At 720P there is usually enough bandwidth to go around so that the HD channel will not get bitstarved like it does on 1080i.Right, and FOX uses splicer so WXIX has no control over how much bandwidth the primary channel gets anyway, but they leave enough room for one SD subchannel, so it makes sense to make use of it.

William Smith

01-04-08, 01:51 PM

See attached notice...

HD changes at 20:00 on 1-6-08

William

Splicer010

01-04-08, 01:57 PM

So thats why I couldn't get WLWT-DT or KET last night...I had a feeling you guys were doing something...Haven't checked to see if either was back on yet today...I will go read your attachment now...

Splicer010

01-04-08, 02:00 PM

Nope still off air...This sucks if this is the way it is going to be and WLWT-DT is knoocked off the air for the Time Warner Amelia Headend users...

Splicer010

01-04-08, 02:04 PM

Not to mention you guys are knocked off air as well...

Splicer010

01-04-08, 06:39 PM

So I am the only one affected by this WLWT-DT/KET KY debacle??? Seems hard to believe and would at least affect plughplover as well...

plughplover

01-04-08, 09:35 PM

Well, after the LG firmware upgrade gave me problems (set locks up) with WBDT, and since they can't flash the firmware to lower versions (loader won't allow it), they ordered in a replacement board with a lower firmware version already flashed.

Came out, open the set up, swapped the boards, put it back together, powered it on...

and nothing; zip; nada; zilch...

Hmmm. Open it back up, swapped the original boards back in, powered it on...

and still nothing.

So we carried it out to his truck :(

Splicer010

01-04-08, 10:46 PM

:eek:Dangggg...

jim tressler

01-05-08, 01:58 PM

5-1 working fine for me

Splicer010

01-05-08, 02:08 PM

OTA I can get fine...Lucky for me that I won't miss the playoffs today...;)

It is the cable WLWT-DT and (I think) WCVN on the Amelia headend that is completely out since the KET-KY channel has been added per William in an earlier post...And I personally feel it is TW fault...Before the new channel I had an easy (enough) and acceptable work around to view WLWT-DT during primetime...Any other time no work around was needed...But now I get zilch...zip...nadda during ANY time of day unless I connect my outside antenna and rescan just for NBC then if I want any other channel I go back to cable and rescan again...Real PITA...

Beginning Monday I will begin to contact TW about this and try to find who I need to speak to and try to get phone #'s...

Bill R (# 2)

01-05-08, 04:23 PM

Up until this week the local digital channels were all over the place on Insight cable if you viewed them via your TV's QAM tuner (12.1 was on 89.1, WLWT WX was on 89.7, ect). As of yesterday they are all properly mapped. For example 5.1 shows on 5.1 instead of 89.3 (where it has been for years). The other good news is that they are passing PSIP data so you can use your guide and/or info button.

The only local digital stations that they don't carry are WSTR-DT (they were unable to come to an "arrangement" with Sinclair) and the digital feeds of WPTO (which they don't consider a local station even though they carry the analog feed of the station).

They are also carrying WBQC (OTA analog channel 38) in their digital tier on channel 104.1 (clear QAM). The CinCW (OTA channel 12.2) is carried on their analog tier on channel 25.

I did a quick comparrision of the OTA HD channels and the same channels on Insight and they all look very compariable.

If anyone from Insight reads this forum, thank you for mapping the local digital channels and passing PSIP data.

blbrodbeck

01-06-08, 09:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by blbrodbeck View Post
If Ch. 19 can air the 10 O'Clock News at 10 PM on other cable channels when there are football games on, like tonight. Then why don't they also simulcast it on Ch. 19-2 so that those of us who don't have cable can still watch their News at 10 PM.

--------------------------------------------------------------

That actually is a great idea and I think you may want to share it with WXIX either by email or a phone call or both...
__________________
"Don't taze me bro!!!" [/QUOTE]

I emailed 3 top people at WXIX. None of the 3 bothered to reply. - Bill

jdhughes63

01-06-08, 09:47 PM

jimp2244

01-06-08, 10:45 PM

Amazing. After weeks of complaining about the delayed Sunday shows on CBS being in SD, tonight they are in HD. Not without problems. Blank screens, test patterns etc. Probably working the bugs out of whatever they had to do.

But Kudos for CBS for finding a way to broadcast game delayed shows in HD.The reason the delayed shows were in SD in some previous weeks is because some markets had a late game that ran over. CBS did not have the capability to have enough delayed HD feeds for all the markets, so those markets had to go SD. This week everyone got the same game so all markets were synchronized, thus no problem with HD for everyone.

As for the test pattern/color bar screens that came up several times (and for several minutes each time) I'm not sure whose fault that was, but it looked like it was WKRC switching to the wrong HD feed. If other affiliates had the same issue that we had here then that would give us a clue that it was a national CBS issue, but I haven't seen any reports of that yet.

jimp2244

01-06-08, 11:02 PM

WLWT-DT had American Gladiators in SD tonight. Guess they didn't realize the show was in HD!

jim tressler

01-07-08, 08:30 AM

was it hd from WDTN out of dayton?

lbowuc

01-07-08, 08:43 AM

WLWT-DT had American Gladiators in SD tonight. Guess they didn't realize the show was in HD!

was it hd from WDTN out of dayton?

Yes, American Gladiators was in HD last night on WDTN.

Splicer010

01-07-08, 08:47 AM

Well well well...Looks like I do not need to contact TW after all...:) As of last night I have WLWT-DT back...What surprised the heck out of me was that I just switched to 105-1 last night at aout 11PM and the news just came on...:)

Started switching channels and noticed that a couple of the KET channels were now gone...I believe nightwatchman thought those were the government access channels...Well now...they are gone but KET KY is on there...

Now I still have no audio for the KET channels...which would be nice to have...but WLWT-DT is back...and it appears...at least as of last night...I can switch to prime time NBC programming from a different channel realm and it works...:D Will have to see if that remains tonight...

Nitewatchman

01-07-08, 06:28 PM

Started switching channels and noticed that a couple of the KET channels were now gone...I believe nightwatchman thought those were the government access channels

Why don't you read the Document William Attached to his last post ?

I'll summarize :

KET5+6 were KY general assembly(KY House and Senate) coverage(when they were in session)+were dropped at first of year, that coverage is now going to KET3(KET KY) according to the KET press release William posted.

On WCVN-DT (OTA) KET 5 and 6 were at 54-5 and 54-6 (PSIP VCT), those streams went away Jan 1.

Splicer010

01-07-08, 09:34 PM

Why don't you read the Document William Attached to his last post ?

I'll summarize :

KET5+6 were KY general assembly(KY House and Senate) coverage(when they were in session)+were dropped at first of year, that coverage is now going to KET3(KET KY) according to the KET press release William posted.

On WCVN-DT (OTA) KET 5 and 6 were at 54-5 and 54-6 (PSIP VCT), those streams went away Jan 1.Hell with the summerization crap...I'll post the EXACT wording...

"The array of Kentucky-themed programming KET produces each week, along with a wealth of encore programming that highlights the people, places, culture and history of the Commonwealth, can now be found on the Kentucky Channel (KET KY). This newly created digital-only channel focuses on content by, for and about Kentuckians.
“In the new digital media landscape, the greatest ‘risk’ is to local content. Well, KET is protecting our viewers by creating the Kentucky Channel as a stand-alone broadcast platform that champions all things local,” said KET Executive Director Malcolm Wall. “And, the future is even brighter as we bring in content from Kentucky colleges and universities.”
Programs that will regularly appear on the Kentucky Channel include Kentucky Life, Louisville Life, Jubilee, One to One, Connections with Renee Shaw, Kentucky Author Forum Presents and Comment on Kentucky. The Kentucky Channel also offers new KET productions such as Kentucky Muse and Art to Heart, and is a venue for programs created by other producers around the state, including Woodsongs, Kentucky Health and Kentucky Time Capsule.
Coverage of the Kentucky Legislature’s General Assembly sessions and interim meetings will also be broadcast on the Kentucky Channel.
The Kentucky Channel is broadcast 20 hours a day, from midnight until 8 p.m. ET (11 p.m. to
7 p.m. CT). The channel is available statewide over the air for viewers with digital televisions or digital converter boxes. Many cable operators also carry KET KY as part of their digital packages.
During primetime (8 p.m. to midnight ET), the Kentucky Channel is replaced by KET HD, which includes high-definition presentations of many PBS favorites such as Antiques Roadshow, Nature, Soundstage, American Experience and more. For those viewers who can receive digital broadcasts over the air, KET HD has moved to KET’s third digital broadcast channel. For those receiving KET HD via digital cable, the service will remain on its current channel.
More information about KET programming and education services, as well as how to support KET, can be found at www.ket.org."

NOTHING is said about those 2 channels being dropped...:rolleyes:
As I said in the vry beginning I do not care to watch the KY PBS and not having any audio seems to deepen my desire not to tune to KET. So unlike you that enjoys it and gets the full A/V spectrum I had no idea untill I tuned to WLWT-DT that there were any issues at all...So excuse me for crediting you with the explanation of the 2 channels that I discovered were missing...I promise I wont credit you with anything again...

Why don't I read the document...:rolleyes: Give me a break...Why don't you read what I posted directly following his announcement...:rolleyes:

terryfoster

01-07-08, 10:48 PM

Anyone else experiencing signal dropouts on WXIX-DT?

Splicer010

01-07-08, 11:09 PM

Occasionally yes...

jimp2244

01-08-08, 08:37 AM

American Gladiators was in HD on WLWT-DT last night.

Nitewatchman

01-08-08, 05:15 PM

NOTHING is said about those 2 channels being dropped

It was obvious they were dropped because the streams for KET5/6 disappeared around 1/1/08. (I think it was actually 1/2, but you get the idea). That was part of my "summary" as well, not just what the document said ... Sorry I didn't clarify that.

...I believe nightwatchman thought those were the government access channels...Well now...they are gone but KET KY is on there...

Now I still have no audio for the KET channels...which would be nice to have...

What has changed which is relevant to your problem issue(beginning 1/6) is that now, KET3(Now KETKY/KETHD) isn't "inactive"(Including PMT's dropped) like it used to be in prime time, now, instead, it's KET4(now KETED) that's the inactive stream(Including PMT's dropped) ...

Well well well...Looks like I do not need to contact TW after all...

That's up to you, but it doesn't sound to me like the issue is fixed.

Depending upon such issues as whether or not the PID's have been "renumbered" for the WLWT-DT streams in TW's Mux of WLWT-DT/WCVN-DT streams vs. what they were when we last looked at Plughplover's TSreader HTML files for TW's Ch 84 Mux(via his headend), or whether or not they've changed other things about the MUX :

If not(or if perhaps for some reason TWX is not carrying the KET4 stream now), to try to say this in a non-technical way, it seems like it is probably the case that it just so happens now that your receiver can now "get to"/"get through" the MPEG2 PSI info for the KET1/2/3 streams and then "get to" the WLWT-DT streams properly so they can be decoded(unlike was the case when KET3 was "inactive"), without it mattering now (except for the missing audio) that the KET4(er, KETED) stream is now inactive between 8pm~12am ...

I don't think KET5/6 being dropped had anything to do with it, since that happened on Jan 1+2 and you were still getting the "problem" (not able to get WLWT-DT) after that, until the change to KET3(KETKY/HD) being active 24/7 beginning 1/6 + KET4 being the inactive stream 8pm~12am beginning 1/6 ...

At this point, I would venture to guess that in addition to the audio missing problem you have now, you'll probably still also see the problem again anytime WCVN-DT transmitter goes off/gets knocked off air ... That's just a guess though, as if they *have* renumbered the PID's etc so that all the WLWT streams are lower PID's than any of the WCVN-DT streams, then it's possible you still might be able to decode WLWT streams fine even with WCVN off air (still doesn't really "fix" the problem here however in regards to how apparently some LG chipsets are handling some of these tuning issues and what happens when some streams in a mux on any given QAM "channel" go "inactive")...

Give me a break...Why don't you read what I posted directly following his announcement...:rolleyes:

I did read it. It didn't make much sense to me, as it involved incorrect reporting on your part regarding the situation the night *before* KET made the change to HD going to KET3/KETKY and when KET3 was still the inactive stream between 8pm~12am -- (In other words, they weren't doing anything "different" on that night(1/5) than they had before then in regards to KET3 or 4)

And, that post(which I quote below) also directly indicated you did not read the document William had posted. Although a later post of yours(which I also read) indicated you did read it, your comment regarding what I "thought" about what used to be the KET5/6 channels didn't make much sense to me either, as info on KET5/6 was available when they were "active" on the KET DTV website, not to mention the actual programming that was on there(which wasn't "active" very often, only when KY general assembly was in session) .....

Anyway, here's what you said in the post immediately after William posted the press release, since you like posting things "exactly as they were" :

So thats why I couldn't get WLWT-DT or KET last night...I had a feeling you guys were doing something...Haven't checked to see if either was back on yet today...I will go read your attachment now...

Nitewatchman

01-08-08, 05:48 PM

As I said in the vry beginning I do not care to watch the KY PBS and not having any audio seems to deepen my desire not to tune to KET.

Your or my likes or dislikes are Inconseqential to the issue at hand and generally to our purposes here, and also have nothing to do with why I've made any comments whatsoever about this issue. And remember, The problem issues you are having could just as well involve programming(or other stations) you *do* wish to watch.

So unlike you that enjoys it and gets the full A/V spectrum

I have no idea what that means.

So excuse me for crediting you with the explanation of the 2 channels that I discovered were missing...I promise I wont credit you with anything again...

Just Don't put words in my mouth, if you're going to post comments of mine in "your words", and you don't "get it right", you may certianly expect I may have something to say about it.

Splicer010

01-08-08, 06:14 PM

:rolleyes:

Nitewatchman

01-08-08, 07:17 PM

^ Your Welcome.

jim tressler

01-08-08, 10:18 PM

dont taze me bro!!! - lol - saw that video the other day.. funny stuff!

Splicer010

01-08-08, 11:12 PM

:)Thats the quote of the year 2007...

blbrodbeck

01-09-08, 07:27 PM

If Ch. 19 can air the 10 O'Clock News at 10 PM on other cable channels when there are football games on, like tonight. Then why don't they also simulcast it on Ch. 19-2 so that those of us who don't have cable can still watch their News at 10 PM.

I emailed Ch. 19 about this. I got a reply today. Here it is. -

Bill, sorry for the response delay. There are some strange FCC rules requiring us to schedule and present Children's programming if we were to do what you have suggested. Having said that, we are looking into how we might be able to integrate our news on 19-2 without incurring the additional FCC programming requirements. Unlike most companies, you must remember, we are regulated by the US Government, therefore nothing comes easy ...........JLong

Sea Ray

01-09-08, 08:55 PM

I see the Bearcats game is on ch 19 tonight. I thought they were dropping Bearcat basketball? I see they're picking up the ESPN Plus feed but if they broadcast ESPN gameplan games then they're hardly giving up on UC. I imagine ESPN Plus will be picking up most Big East games this year.

microbob

01-09-08, 10:40 PM

I emailed Ch. 19 about this. I got a reply today. Here it is. -

Bill, sorry for the response delay. There are some strange FCC rules requiring us to schedule and present Children's programming if we were to do what you have suggested. Having said that, we are looking into how we might be able to integrate our news on 19-2 without incurring the additional FCC programming requirements. Unlike most companies, you must remember, we are regulated by the US Government, therefore nothing comes easy ...........JLong

They used to run Kids programs on Saturday Mornings on the Tube. I wonder if they have plans of picking up Retro Television Network?

fgrogan

01-10-08, 02:29 PM

When will the local channel 5 news be broadcast in true HD (1080)? It seems channel 9 is and i'm not sure about the others.

Splicer010

01-10-08, 02:57 PM

The deal with using the sub channel is that a certain amount of 'educational programming' must be broadcast...The news certainly does fit that description...However I believe there must be a minimum of 3 hours of 'educational programming' in order to use as a broadcast channel...

William Smith

01-10-08, 05:43 PM

But the educational programming does not have to be on that service. For two feeds they would need 6 hours of programming per week.

Splicer010

01-10-08, 06:00 PM

3hrs per channel though...correct???

jimp2244

01-10-08, 06:08 PM

When will the local channel 5 news be broadcast in true HD (1080)? It seems channel 9 is and i'm not sure about the others.Last I asked WLWT, they told me it was up to Hearst Argyle (so no current plans). WCPO is the only local news in HD as of right now. WHIO (Dayton channel 7) does SD 16:9 widescreen. All the others are SD 4:3.

jimp2244

01-10-08, 06:13 PM

But the educational programming does not have to be on that service.Does that mean that a station that currently has two channels, such as WLWT which has NBC HD and Weather+ could just make an E/I sub channel with 9 hours of educational programming, give it almost no bandwidth, and then not be required to show E/I on the other 2 sub channels?

I also thought that Weather+, being that it is a weather service, would not be required to show E/I programs, but on Saturday mornings you can see E/I programming on 5-2 (which I'm sure no one is aware of or watches).

William Smith

01-11-08, 09:31 AM

jimp2244

01-11-08, 10:25 AM

As I understand it, and cleared by our FCC contacts, the requirement is three hours of E/I programming for every sub channel. Since we have more that enough for 6 subs on either KET1 or KET2 we feel we are covered. You could do what you suggest but programming costs money and kids programming is even more expensive due to the ad restrictions.How would they count a sub-channel that gets turned on and off? (Example, what if a station had no sub-channels, but when preempting network feed for local sports coverage, they brought up a sub to show the network feed?)

HDTV1998

01-11-08, 11:23 AM

Dish only installs UHF antennas only. You need to have a UHF / VHF antenna. Channel 12 will be VHF in a year also. HDTV1998

William Smith

01-11-08, 11:28 AM

Its calculated based on programming hours..

see this document...

FYI, The table of contents in FCC documents references paragraph numbers not pages.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-06-143A1.doc

Bill R (# 2)

01-11-08, 02:26 PM

Dish only installs UHF antennas only.

That just isn't true. It depends on the area and the installer group. If you need a VHF/UHF antenna you need to tell them up front and the installer SHOULD bring one.

JunkyardDogg

01-11-08, 06:10 PM

Has anyone else noticed this going on? It makes it impossible to watch SD programming!

CincySaint

01-12-08, 11:29 PM

You have to love your local HD sports highlights on channel 9:

UC basketball
Xavier basketball
UC basketball (women)

That is really good use of their HD equipment.

Thanks folks.

JunkyardDogg

01-13-08, 12:45 PM

When did WCPO get the HD cameras for remote shots? I thought they were using widescreen SD cameras?

CincySaint

01-13-08, 02:25 PM

Well if it's widescreen SD, it looks very good.

typer_801

01-15-08, 09:02 PM

Splicer010

01-15-08, 10:07 PM

Encrypted...:mad:

Like I am going to pay a premium for a movie channel that inserts commercials in the middle of a movie...:rolleyes:

Bill R (# 2)

01-16-08, 11:50 AM

For the last 8-10 months I was able to get Universal HD through my basic TW cable service with my Panny plasma with QAM tuner. However, in the last week it simply went away. No signal. Was the channel remapped or encrypted? I was viewing it on 128-1, but no more.

As Splicer010 said, they encrypted it. Over here in Northern Ky Insight is doing the same thing. Everything except the broadcast channels and a few (not worth having) music channels are encrypted. A year ago there were lot of digital channels that were unencrypted, including, some PPVs. The PPVs were likely a mistake but other stuff like FIT TV, would be likely better off if they left them unencrpted (at least someone would watch them). All the Music Choice channels were unencrypted until just a few months ago.

The cable companies would be smart if they would unencrypt the PPV preview channels and a few others. Someone might just watch them and decide that it might be worth upgrading their service.

DevoDave

01-17-08, 07:57 AM

jimp2244

01-17-08, 08:48 AM

I would like to install a residential tower for an OTA antenna. Does anyone know of any good companies in this area to erect a tower for an antenna?

I have found good places to buy tower sections, but am interested in finding someone to prepare a proper base, etc.

Begging your pardon for being slightly off topic...
You are completely on topic (HDTV Reception).

I used TNT pictures to install my antenna. I don't have a tower though and don't know if they do that, but it might be worth asking them.

http://www.tntpicturecompany.com/

DevoDave

01-17-08, 09:27 AM

I used TNT pictures to install my antenna. I don't have a tower though and don't know if they do that, but it might be worth asking them.

Thanks, just out of curiosity, what did TNT do for your installation? I already have my house wired for good quality OTA to the viewing locations, and have a good quality antenna, just need a little height to get best reception.

Need someone to dig and pour a concrete base (my soil is rocky, couldn't make much of a dent by hand), am thinking of a simple tilt up antenna base and a couple of tower sections, my ham radio friends have steered me to a Hamilton, OH ham store for tower sections, but they had no links to someone to put in the base.

Thanks again!

jimp2244

01-17-08, 10:01 AM

Thanks, just out of curiosity, what did TNT do for your installation? I already have my house wired for good quality OTA to the viewing locations, and have a good quality antenna, just need a little height to get best reception.

Need someone to dig and pour a concrete base (my soil is rocky, couldn't make much of a dent by hand), am thinking of a simple tilt up antenna base and a couple of tower sections, my ham radio friends have steered me to a Hamilton, OH ham store for tower sections, but they had no links to someone to put in the base.

Thanks again!
TNT mounted a medium sized VHF/UHF combo antenna with rotor on my roof (actually mounted to to the eaves). Also ran the coax and rotor wires into the house and confirmed reception and rotor presets.

Nitewatchman

01-17-08, 09:15 PM

Need someone to dig and pour a concrete base (my soil is rocky, couldn't make much of a dent by hand),

Maybe some of your ham friends are good with a pick and shovel? ;)

I've only done that sort of thing DIY, but not much in the way of rocks to deal with .... Note: I've used about a 4'x4' concrete base for my freestanding ~32' towers, which is probably a little "more" than was necessary, but they haven't went anywhere ....

Seems to me anyone who has poured concrete or busted up some sidewalks/etc could probably do it, but defintely make sure the base is going to be level "for the tower" before the concrete sets, you want the thing to be straight! .....

am thinking of a simple tilt up antenna base and a couple of tower sections, my ham radio friends have steered me to a Hamilton, OH ham store for tower sections,

R&L I'd think .... You might want to PM Dimitriz (he posts on this thread, but it has been a while) for ideas, as he posted here sometime back he went that route as well ....

ansarar

01-20-08, 01:07 AM

bearcatscott

01-20-08, 01:21 AM

Anyone know what's taking Dish Network so long to get the Cincinnati locals in HD? I know TWC has it, and I think DirectTV has it (not sure). Seems like this would be a necessity to keep up with the competitors.

Antenna is working fine for now, but I wonder how well I'll get 12-1 when it goes to VHF. I barely get 9-1.

On the last Charlie Chat, they showed a graphic that had Cincinnati HD locals to be turned on in 2008. Dish is launching 2 sats this year, one in March and one later this year. When these sats get up, a lot more HD will be available then.

Bill R (# 2)

01-20-08, 01:35 PM

On the last Charlie Chat, they showed a graphic that had Cincinnati HD locals to be turned on in 2008. Dish is launching 2 sats this year, one in March and one later this year. When these sats get up, a lot more HD will be available then.

They showed a map in late 2006 that showed Cincinnati HD locals and said that they would be added in 2007. It didn't happen.

Since I get all the local HD OTA channels via my antenna with very good signal strength it isn't real important to me to get them via satellite but the ability to record two local HD channels at the same time will be nice.

I wonder where they are going to put our HD locals? I get my HD from the 61.5 satellite (and I have a dish 500 for 119 and 110). I know for recent HD installs that are putting up the dish 1000.2 (for 129, 119, and 110).

bearcatscott

01-20-08, 07:15 PM

They showed a map in late 2006 that showed Cincinnati HD locals and said that they would be added in 2007. It didn't happen.

Since I get all the local HD OTA channels via my antenna with very good signal strength it isn't real important to me to get them via satellite but the ability to record two local HD channels at the same time will be nice.

I wonder where they are going to put our HD locals? I get my HD from the 61.5 satellite (and I have a dish 500 for 119 and 110). I know for recent HD installs that are putting up the dish 1000.2 (for 129, 119, and 110).

I remember the 2006 map. But as the Big Fat Man with a stubby cigar in his mouth and his pants half zipped used to say, "This time I'm being honest with you. HD locals will be available in Cincy in 2008." I believe the HD locals will be on the same location that Fox Sports Ohio HD is, 129. I have read on another forum that HD locals usually go on the same satellite that the regional sports HD channel is located. I think one of the two new satellites will replace the current sick 129 bird. All new HD channels wil also be in MPEG4 which will free up a ton of space when Dish moves the rest of the HD channels to MPEG4 and all the SD channels eventually. I think the 61.5 bird will go to all international programming eventually.

Bill R (# 2)

01-20-08, 08:03 PM

I think the 61.5 bird will go to all international programming eventually.

DISH has been moving the international channels off of the 61.5 for a while now. They are moving them (by country) to the 118.75 satellite (a dish 1000+ is needed). They will all be off of 61.5 by this summer. The plans are to use the 61.5 satellite for national HD channels and locals (both SD and HD). When the new satellite launches to 61.5 this year DISH is going to start using spot beams from 61.5 (for local SD and HD channels). I'm not sure where Cincinnati HD locals are going to be from. With a new satellite also going to the 110 slot (with more spot beam capacity) they could end up there.

It will by YEARS (at least three) before they move all the SD channels to MPEG4.

bearcatscott

01-20-08, 08:49 PM

DISH has been moving the international channels off of the 61.5 for a while now. They are moving them (by country) to the 118.75 satellite (a dish 1000+ is needed). They will all be off of 61.5 by this summer. The plans are to use the 61.5 satellite for national HD channels and locals (both SD and HD). When the new satellite launches to 61.5 this year DISH is going to start using spot beams from 61.5 (for local SD and HD channels). I'm not sure where Cincinnati HD locals are going to be from. With a new satellite also going to the 110 slot (with more spot beam capacity) they could end up there.

It will by YEARS (at least three) before they move all the SD channels to MPEG4.

You are right about the internationals moving to 118.7, I forgot about that one. Agree, it will be several years before SD moves to MPEG4. Just hope it will not be too long off.

CincySaint

01-20-08, 09:55 PM

What's with the Fox news promo during a crucial point in the NFC championship game? We lost sound and HD picture. Very lame..

I've emailed the GM to complain.

jimp2244

01-21-08, 08:42 AM

What's with the Fox news promo during a crucial point in the NFC championship game? We lost sound and HD picture. Very lame..

I've emailed the GM to complain.Apparently they think it's more important for Jack to clear his throat and look confused for about 15 seconds. Not sure why an on screen crawl or graphic wouldn't have accomplished the same thing of telling us that the 10 o'clock news was starting on TW channel 2.

Splicer010

01-21-08, 08:49 AM

Bill R (# 2)

01-21-08, 01:31 PM

Apparently they think it's more important for Jack to clear his throat and look confused for about 15 seconds. Not sure why an on screen crawl or graphic wouldn't have accomplished the same thing of telling us that the 10 o'clock news was starting on TW channel 2.

You have to wonder what is going on at `XIX lately. I've seen so many screwups (especially DURING the news) that I have to ask "what's wrong?"at the station. The lame way that they have split up the weather into four segments and that new weather girl always standing in front of the forecasts makes me think that is better to wait until 11:00 to watch the news and weather. Besides, HD News on WCPO looks a lot better and they do more of a professional job than WXIX.

ScottA

01-21-08, 01:43 PM

jimp2244

01-21-08, 01:50 PM

I had TNT Pictures install a HD antenna in my attic last week and all Cincinnati channels are coming in well except for WCPO. Overall, the signal strength on my DishTV receiver has the signal in the mid-70's but the signal fluctuates to about 80 to a drop-out to a low 60's then back to the mid-70's.

The installer said he didn't think that having an outside antenna would make much of a difference. He didn't know if the WLW antenna was interfering (about .75 miles away about due south) but couldn't pull in a better reception.

Anyone in Mason having similar problems?

// ScottAAlthough I generally have a favorable opinion on TNT pictures and recommend them as installers, I would disagree with the statement that having the antenna outside would not make much of a difference. It seems to be that many people who are having issues with WCPO reception are trying to use antennas indoors. A few years ago I was in Dayton with a Radio Shack VU-190XR (Large VHF/UHF combo) in the attic and was able to get every Cincinnati station except WCPO. I really think their digital VHF signal does not do well through walls/roofs. WBNS 10 Columbus might interfere as you get closer in that direction but I really don't think Mason is close enough to Columbus for that to be much of an issue. I'm in Sharonville now which is not as far out as you are in Mason but I have absolutely no issues with WCPO with a roof mounted VHF/UHF combo, which is the model TNT pictures installed for me.

EDIT/ADDITION: What do analog 9 and analog 12 look like with your current set up?

microbob

01-21-08, 02:06 PM

You have to wonder what is going on at `XIX lately. I've seen so many screwups (especially DURING the news) that I have to ask "what's wrong?"at the station. The lame way that they have split up the weather into four segments and that new weather girl always standing in front of the forecasts makes me think that is better to wait until 11:00 to watch the news and weather. Besides, HD News on WCPO looks a lot better and they do more of a professional job than WXIX.

Raycom cost cutting is the reason. This from Kiesewetter's Blog.

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/tv/2008_01_01_default.asp

Another victim of budget cuts: David Ashbrock, the terrifically versatile producer-director at WXIX-TV (Channel 19).

Ashbrock has done just about everything in 27-1/2 years at Channel 19. He directed UC basketball and football games; the coaches’ shows; directed some 10 p.m. newscasts; designed the news graphics, mapping and opening animation; helped set up the new HDTV switcher and monitoring scheme; plus produced, directed and edited specials about the Cincinnati Reds, Cincinnati Zoo and the National Underground Railroad Freedom Center. He won 32 Emmys in 27-1/2 years.

But he was told that his job as station executive producer was being eliminated after Channel 19 terminated its UC television contract last month. His last duty was to direct Channel 19's final original UC basketball telecast, the UC-Miami game last weekend.

Paul210

01-22-08, 08:31 AM

I had TNT Pictures install a HD antenna in my attic last week and all Cincinnati channels are coming in well except for WCPO....

// ScottA

Not sure what you're calling "a HD antenna", but as numerous others have pointed out, WCPO-DT is on VHF, not UHF. Sometimes what people refer to as an HD antenna is UHF only. There is really no such thing as an HD antenna. It's all marketing hype.

jimp2244

01-22-08, 09:45 AM

Not sure what you're calling "a HD antenna", but as numerous others have pointed out, WCPO-DT is on VHF, not UHF. Sometimes what people refer to as an HD antenna is UHF only. There is really no such thing as an HD antenna. It's all marketing hype.As far as I know, TNT uses one model of antenna, and it's a medium sized Winegard VHF/UHF combo (what I have).

I'd still like to hear how ScottA's analog 12 and 9 look, as those will be very good indicators as to what's happening with WCPO-DT 10. ScottA, any descriptions such as "a little fuzzy" or "ghosting," etc. would be very helpful.

I also wonder how much room there is to work with in the attic, and if it is possible to properly aim the antenna...

blbrodbeck

01-22-08, 10:49 AM

cb378

01-22-08, 11:21 AM

I'm wondering how many of you out there use a surge protector with your HDTVs. Is it a good idea? Do the TVs nowadays have something like this built into them? People use them to protect their PCs, but HDTVs often cost more than PCs, yet you don't hear about too many people using them for TVs. Are they necessary?

I fall into the "better safe than sorry" bucket. Not only do I have a surge protector, but when I got my new home theater system I bought a brand new one with a guarantee also, I copied all the serial numbers from the equipment and now my insurance company has them in case of disaster.

My question to anyone not considering one: If you are spending thousands of dollars on audio / video equipment, why would you risk destroying it over a $50 surge protector?

With my set up, I have over $2800 invested so $50 is about 2% of my setup, heck I spent more on cables from monoprice.com than on the surge protector.

Ben

jimp2244

01-22-08, 11:46 AM

terryfoster

01-22-08, 12:10 PM

I'm wondering how many of you out there use a surge protector with your HDTVs. Is it a good idea? Do the TVs nowadays have something like this built into them? People use them to protect their PCs, but HDTVs often cost more than PCs, yet you don't hear about too many people using them for TVs. Are they necessary?

Not only do I have a surge protector, but it's also a UPS. The UPS will allow my fan to run on my DLP to cool the bulb in case of an outage to protect the life of the bulb, it also keeps my DVR that takes ~5 minutes to boot from going down in the case of a short outage. Also make sure your surge protector does noise filtering, most of the decent ones do, but you should check and make sure.

I think you don't hear about people using surge protection with their TVs because it is almost second nature. You're unlikely to find enough outlets on the wall where you want to install your TV, STB, DVD player, receiver, etc, that people have a power strip. Almost any power strip you find today provides some level of surge protection.

CincySaint

01-22-08, 01:53 PM

jkbert2

01-22-08, 01:58 PM

Any Reds games going to be in HD this year?

skylab

01-22-08, 02:21 PM

Another reason for a good surge protector that was pointed out to me by my insurance agent --- most homeowners policies are limited to $1000 per item for lightning damage. That's means you are on the hook for the replacement cost of any TV beyond the initial $1000.

I think a $50-$100 investment in a surge protector is smart business. I have one.

I agree with these comments. In addition, for owners of rear projection tvs (like LCD projection) that utilize bulbs and fans to keep the bulbs cool, a battery backup/surge protector is of particular importance.

ScottA

01-22-08, 03:28 PM

Not sure what you're calling "a HD antenna", but as numerous others have pointed out, WCPO-DT is on VHF, not UHF. Sometimes what people refer to as an HD antenna is UHF only. There is really no such thing as an HD antenna. It's all marketing hype.

Yes, Paul. I understand. I used the term "HD antenna" instead of "VHF/UHF antenna to receive OAR digital television to my HD equipment". OK?

// ScottA

jimp2244

01-22-08, 03:51 PM

Any Reds games going to be in HD this year?The Reds haven't released an official TV schedule yet, but I believe, like last year, they will have select televised games in HD throughout the season. Last year they had a fair number of them and this year I would expect more. This is subject to your ability to receive FSN-Ohio HD channel though.

jimp2244

01-22-08, 04:00 PM

Not only do I have a surge protector, but it's also a UPS. The UPS will allow my fan to run on my DLP to cool the bulb in case of an outage to protect the life of the bulb

I agree with these comments. In addition, for owners of rear projection tvs (like LCD projection) that utilize bulbs and fans to keep the bulbs cool, a battery backup/surge protector is of particular importance.I have a Samsung DLP, plugged into a surge protector, but no UPS. I have not been convinced that a UPS is necessary for bulb protection, but rather see it as an easy up-sell for the Best Buy or Circuit City sales reps. I could be wrong, as I have not taken much effort to research this, but I am not convinced that the bulb life would be very noticeably reduced by the lack of bulb cooling caused by a power outage. If the the power outages were a regular occurrence, I could see the merit in this, however they are not (at least where I live). How much would one or two improper shutdowns reduce lamp life by? Have there been studies done on this?

I'm not trying to argue the point, as like I said, I have not taken the time to research this much, but am just saying I have yet to be convinced that the UPS is necessary.

jim tressler

01-22-08, 05:57 PM

not only a suge supresser - but ups as well.. if you want to go that route - make sure you get one that outputs a pure sine wave for your tv, dvd, and stereo.. dvr's and pc's can use any ups as they have power regulators that can take the stepped sine the most ups puts out. - now that being said.. I have never heard of anyone that had their tv or stereo crap out because it was on a regular ups... just my 2 cents.. and of course your mileage will vary!

I'm wondering how many of you out there use a surge protector with your HDTVs. Is it a good idea? Do the TVs nowadays have something like this built into them? People use them to protect their PCs, but HDTVs often cost more than PCs, yet you don't hear about too many people using them for TVs. Are they necessary?

Bill R (# 2)

01-23-08, 10:28 AM

The Reds haven't released an official TV schedule yet, but I believe, like last year, they will have select televised games in HD throughout the season. Last year they had a fair number of them and this year I would expect more. This is subject to your ability to receive FSN-Ohio HD channel though.

Do you mean FSN-Cincinnati? I thought that FSN-Ohio carried the Indians games. Or, are some HD games on both channels?

jim tressler

01-23-08, 11:27 AM

Sportstime Ohio carries the Tribe -

digital only

01-23-08, 06:22 PM

I agree. I had a big attic antenna (vhf/uhf combo) and had occasional dropouts on WCPO. NOw I have a UHF only antenna on the roof and get WCPO without a problem. I'm in Liberty twp so I'm about the same distance from the tower.

jimp2244

01-24-08, 07:45 AM

Do you mean FSN-Cincinnati? I thought that FSN-Ohio carried the Indians games. Or, are some HD games on both channels?The channel is FSN-Ohio, but there are different feeds of it depending on what market you are in. If I recall correctly some satellite providers list FSN-Ohio for the Cincinnati market as "FSN-Cincinnati" which may be the cause of confusion. As Jim said the Indians are on STO.

Nitewatchman

01-24-08, 05:10 PM

Generally speaking, assuming you're using VHF antenna for VHF, UHF for UHF, in my experience VHF signals seem to be easier to receive from indoors than UHF signals, including with "simple" antennas such as rabbit ears for VHF and "bowtie"(folded dipole) or UHF loop, and I can get WCPO digital fairly easily here from indoors with "rabbit ears".

However, what I've also experienced is, Where you place your VHF antenna indoors can be more critical than UHF, not because of anything having to do with the "signals" themselves, but instead because :

#1). The longer wavelengths involved mean you may have to get antenna farther away from nearby "stuff" in order to have "less effect" from the "stuff" on the design/performance of antenna ... Anything *near* antenna actually becomes "part" of the antenna itself ... General rule of thumb is that it's best to keep antenna away from any "stuff"(especially "stuff" that is conductive - such as say, wiring(including A/C wiring in Attic) ) at least 10 wavelengths away in direction antenna is aimed .. 10 wavelengths is a LOT farther on VHF than UHF, and of course that's not likely to happen or even be possible to acheive indoors in some cases ...

#2). Interference of various sorts from various household appliances is *much more* of a problem on VHF than UHF ... While impulse noise interference is more of a problem on VHF-lo, it+various other sorts of interference can still be quite a problem on VHF HI (ch 7~12) as well compared to UHF ...

Getting antenna outside can do wonders for either #1 or 2, as well as greatly cutting the amount of signal attenuation you get from having antenna indoors ... While the latter shouldn't be a problem in "strong signal areas", all this stuff can (along with any additional uncorrectable multipath that occurs mostly because of #1 - this sort of thing is why we say attics are often "multipath nightmares") "add up" to being a bigger issue for reception than they might *seem* to each be on their own .....

What is going on/causing "problems" with DTV reception can be difficult or impossible to properly diagnose without expensive test equipment, but, as others have said, what is going on with analog OTA reception(while they are still on the air) can tell you a *LOT* about what is happening, because what is happening shows up "right on the screen". This can help point you in the right direction concerning what you might want to try in order to improve things ......And, especially in WCPO's situation, currently since their analog is on 9 and digital is on 10+transmitting from same tower, which means *frequency specific* problems/issues, while still possible to some degree are nevertheless less likely to be involved which would cause problems on 10 but not on 9.

jimp2244

01-25-08, 02:57 PM

As Jeff has mentioned here before, WBQC and WOTH have construction permits for digital companion channels listed in the FCC database. WBQC-LD permit is listed for channel 20 and WOTH-LD permit is listed for channel 47.

Anyone have any news on these channels as to when they will be on-air?

Nitewatchman

01-25-08, 03:10 PM

Noticed (and it may have been mentioned here before, I couldn't remember) today that WBQC and WOTH have construction permits for digital companion channels listed in the FCC database. WBQC-LD permit is listed for channel 20 and WOTH-LD permit is listed for channel 47.

See the "Cincinnati are low power stations(currently analog only)" section of first post of this thread ..... Believe we discussed it a bit in this thread around the time they applied for the companion channels or when the CP's were granted as well ..

Update: Looking at that, noticed I needed to update some of the info on the KET translators and did so ....

Anyone know when these channels might go on-air?

I just sent them an email, block or grey have allways been good about replying, I'll post if I find out anything .... Just a guess, but Would guess $ is probably a significant issue involved ... I do recall at one time they seemed quite excited about digital and UPN HD, but that was before a number of things "happened" ....

Update: Well, got a automated reply on email to their PD, "out of office" until feb 4 ...

Do note that analog shut off on 2/17/09 does not apply to LP stations, and no date has been set yet for analog LP's to sign off ...

ScottA

01-26-08, 04:24 PM

What do analog 9 and analog 12 look like with your current set up?

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you but I was out of town. I connected the coax to a TV that received both analog and digital channels. Both WCPO (9) and WKRC (12) analog appeared with a clear signal and no shadows, ghosting, etc.

I agree that an external antenna would pull in a better signal, it's really not an option for me. It's a long story. I guess I was wondering if anyone else had a problem receiving WCPO-DT from Mason using an attic set-up.

Thanks for the help. Other suggestions are welcome and appreciated.

// ScottA

blbrodbeck

01-26-08, 07:32 PM

I want to Thank everyone for their advice on the surge protector. I have 2 HDTVs. I've had the more expensive one plugged into a surge protector all along just as a safeguard. I've now plugged in my other HDTV to a surge protector as well.
My sister & her husband bought a Sony 50" HDTV (& DVD player) recently. I've suggested to them to get a surge protector for those also.

Nitewatchman

01-27-08, 02:48 AM

I connected the coax to a TV that received both analog and digital channels. Both WCPO (9) and WKRC (12) analog appeared with a clear signal and no shadows, ghosting, etc.

Hmm .. I take it that means you saw no signs of interference either(such as "static" or "sparkles" or "wavy diagonal lines" ? If so, Seems to rule out some various common types of interference, and although it's not completely impossible it's still involved, no ghosting on WCPO 9 seems to indicate is probablyunlikely multipath is the problem .... ...

Might be awfully tough to figure out/say for sure what is going on without spectrum analyzer, as unfortunetly we can't "see" multipath(ghosts) or Interference(or what type of interference it is or may be) "on screen", or how strong or weak the digital signal is as received("snowy" or "fuzzy"=weak) with digital as we can with analog ...

Since WCPO is "clear", it seems very, very unlikely that it's any sort of "signal strength" issue ... So solely from that perspective, in this case I expect the TNT installer was right - i.e. you don't need to get the antenna outdoors in order to get "more signal" .... For instance, I can make WCPO 9 fairly "weak" here by adding additional attenuation in feedline, but I can still receive WCPO digital just fine ... *do* keep in mind that the meter on your receiver is not showing you "signal strength"(even if it's "labeled" that way right on screen) ... It's probably best throught of as a "signal quality" meter, and it's looking at how "easy" it is to decode the digital information contained within the datastream rather than anything about the actual OTA signal itself ...the signal can be very strong, and you can still get low or bouncing around readings because of issues such as multipath, or interference .....

---------------------------

Ok, so where does that leave us .... what's "left" so to speak, ... Well, plenty of possibilities I suppose, including some I'm not thinking of, but there are two things I can think of that seem to kind of "stick out" as possibilities, especially one particular thing involving, well, this, which just really seems to "stand out" like a big red and white 700FT tall Blaw-knox tower, or in other words a "red flag" as some might say :

He didn't know if the WLW antenna was interfering (about .75 miles away about due south)

hmmm ... Let's see, that's awfully darn close, and hmm, pretty much in the direction of the Cincinnati stations ...but, I can't say for sure, but for various reasons I won't go into in detail, I kinda doubt its interference from WLW-AM ....

HOWEVER, there is, I believe, also a High power FM broadcast station which broadcasts from WLW tower site .... I know at one point they've swapped some callsigns around and moved some stations around, don't remember if they did that since I downloaded the last version of the spreadsheet I am looking at which pulls data from FCC Databases ...

So, anyway, If it is still correct then the following FM station broadcasts from WLW Tower site :

96.5 FM - WFTK

Well, what might be a little "special" about that as it "pertains" to WCPO digital transmitting on channel 10 ?

Well, Channel 10 uses 192~198 MHZ ....

Well guess what ... 96.5MHZ x 2 = 193 MHZ, and 193MHZ is right on channel 10, where WCPO digital transmits ....

Why might that "mean anything" significant? Couple of reasons :

#1). Because, Transmitters are kind of like musical instruments ... Although the "fundamental frequency" the WFTK(or whatever their callsign is now - i.e. "96 rock") transmitter "transmits" on is 96.5 MHZ ( or Mc for megacycle for the old timers), but some small amounts of energy are also transmitted on certian harmonic frequencies (including 193MHZ in this case, I can't remember if you call that the "1st" or "2nd" harmonic but it's one of those), just as a Musical instrument creates sound waves at not only a fundamental frequency, but also (usually) several other Harmonic frequencies which gives the instrument it's partuclar timbre, or, what it "sounds" like ... For instance, a Violin sounds a little different than a viola, and a lot different than a cello because the mix of fundamental+harmonic frequencies of the sound waves those instruments creates are 'different' .... But, in the case of transmitters, we really don't want these transmissions on harmonic frequencies, and we call them "spurious" transmissions" --- I don't think they can be gotten rid of completely, so engineers have to do the best they can to control and minimize the amount of energy which is tranmsitted on these harmonic frequencies .... ( this can for instance, install filter at the transmitter) ...

While FCC has some pretty strict rules about it, again there is only so much that can be done ... And, at 3/4 mile, away aiming your antenna in *same* direction

*IF* this is the issue (which I suspect is probably likely) causing your problem -- You wouldn't "see it" on channel 9 as interference, which uses 186~191 MHZ ...

The amount of "energy" (i.e. "signal strength/power) of any of this spurious radiation is likely VERY small, but since you are VERY close to their transmitter, I expect it's possible that it's "strong enough" to be causing your problems ....

It's probably likely they're doing all they can on their end to minimize it, but if this is the issue(they would certianly have a better idea of whether it is or not than I would), it may be possible they might have some ideas or something they could help you with on your end that might help --

#2). I suppose it's also possible that it's not that you're receiving the "actual" spurious transmission on the harmonic itself, but instead, given the signal on 96.5 is so strong, a "spurious signal" or you could think of it as "harmonic" is being created "within your equipment"(the "front-end of your receiver, which although is for "TV" might also be "picking up" the FM signal) so to speak such that it interferes with the WCPO digital signal being received ... For instance, I have AM radios here(just using their internal AM antenna) where I "hear" WLW on both 700KHZ and 1400 Khz ... I doubt it is because I'm actually "picking up" spurious transmission from WLW from 17 miles Over the airwaves on 1400 Khz, instead it's something that is being created as a "spurious signal" by my receiver because WLW is so strong at 700 KHZ it "overloads it" a bit ...

*IF* #2 is the problem --- If you don't already have one, Then putting in a FM trap VERY WELL might help you out (personally, I think The guy at TNT REALLY should have known this and tried it) ... It's even possible if you contact the folks at 96.5 they might even give you one that's better than what you might be able to buy at Radio shack ..... These used to be available for a few bucks at Radio shack, but I'm not sure if they still carry them or not .... *IF* #1 is the problem, you're going to have to call them and explain the situation and see what they say ... If it were me and Icould get hold of one of their engineers, I might say, Hey, I'm getting excellent reception of all the Cincinnati TV stations except WCPO Digital, which transmits on VHF channel 10 .... since I know Channel 10 uses 192~198 MHZ, and 193 MHZ is a Harmonic of 96.5 MHZ, and because I'm only 3/4 of a mile north of your tower, and aiming my antenna right through it to pick up WCPO digital, I was wondering if the problem might be interference from 96.5 and if you could help me do anything about it? " ...

There was a Engineer who "worked at" "those" stations so to speak who used to post here, It would be nice to have been able to discuss it with him but, unfortunetly (and very unwisely IMO - they're good about being "unwise" regarding this sort of thing, just like the situation mentioned earlier regarding a fellow at WXIX) CC "let him go", and unfortunetly he hasn't particpated here in a long time ...

Oh, I might add ... In this particular case, *IF* it's interference from 96.5 that's involved (which at this point I expect is quite likely) ... This very well may be a rare case when getting the antenna outside, very well might make things a bit worse ... But then again, it really shouldn't, it would probably be the same, as while the interference would be stronger, so would WCPO-DT's signal .. "theoretically" equally so such that the "level" of the problem would probably be the same ... It's just possible I suppose it could be worse because the signals are stronger, I don't think it could be "better" ....

plughplover

01-27-08, 10:02 PM

If it's second harmonic of the FM station, and the TV's analog tuner has some kind of fine tuning adjustment, try tuning it to analog CH10 then fine tune from one extreme to the other and see if you hear the FM station on the TV (TV audio is also FM).

I remember when I lived in that area, and not only had WLW but also VOA irradiating me.

Nitewatchman

01-28-08, 06:13 PM

If it's second harmonic of the FM station, and the TV's analog tuner has some kind of fine tuning adjustment, try tuning it to analog CH10 then fine tune from one extreme to the other and see if you hear the FM station on the TV (TV audio is also FM).

That's a great idea, but it's possible he might not be able to make out much of anything "strange"(or it might be difficult to tell) with WCPO-DT signal there as well, as the 8VSB signal pretty much evenly "noises up" things across the 6MHZ channel if you're using a analog receiver to look or listen at it, and it should be fairly strong given he's getting a "clean" signal from WCPO 9 ... It would probably certianly work great though if he can catch WCPO-DT off air sometime and try it ..

On some TV's depending upon their AFT, It might also be possible to see a difference in the "snow" on channel 10 vs. what the "snow" looks like from other channels with local DTV stations on it and possibly to some extent detect interference, but it probably won't be possible to tell "what it is" .... especially as In this case, as harmonic from 96.5 would be closer to the NTSC video carrier on Channel 10 than the audio carrier ....

Unfortunetly many analog TV's(or VCR's/etc) these days mute audio+video (blue screen/etc) if something other than a relatively clean NTSC signal is present, and don't offer any manual tuning adjustments ... Some still do, though, although I'm not sure if some of the "electronic" versions(vs. the sort you used to have on mechanical tuners) would allow you to tune from the normal NTSC audio carrier(at the "top" end of the 6MHZ channel) all the way down to near the bottom of the channel ...

Update : Another thing I forgot to ask -- I wonder if the Digital receiver in his TV performed differently regarding WCPO-DT reception than his Dish HD receiver ?

JunkyardDogg

01-28-08, 06:30 PM

I noticed tonight that WCPO has again upgraded its weather graphics. From before, it looked like they used a SD Widescreen program for the TrueView radar and other graphics. Well that has changed and WOW! It is really awesome. Thanks again WCPO, seems like they are listening to us and keeping the aspect ratio somewhat watchable during weather.

Update: I have confirmation that WCPO has installed the new TrueView HD system from WSI. Currently, WCPO is using Baron Services for "Ultimate Doppler 9 HD" and "Vipir 9" and the TrueView system basically for all other maps, includeing 7-day and daily/nightly forecasts.

ScottA

01-29-08, 10:57 AM

If it's second harmonic of the FM station, and the TV's analog tuner has some kind of fine tuning adjustment, try tuning it to analog CH10 then fine tune from one extreme to the other and see if you hear the FM station on the TV (TV audio is also FM).

I remember when I lived in that area, and not only had WLW but also VOA irradiating me.

Thanks for the idea but all of my TV's use a digital control (I tried to explain a "channel knob" to my kids but gave up).

// ScottA

ScottA

01-29-08, 11:02 AM

Update : Another thing I forgot to ask -- I wonder if the Digital receiver in his TV performed differently regarding WCPO-DT reception than his Dish HD receiver ?

Thanks for the great information, Jeff.

The TV directly connected to the coax would have a frozen picture and sound when the signal dropped. When I connected via the Dish receiver, the receiver would display a "low signal" screen instead of the frozen picture.

I'll try to contact the radio station engineers to see if they have any input.

Thanks again!

// ScottA

Nitewatchman

01-29-08, 01:44 PM

Thanks for the idea but all of my TV's use a digital control (I tried to explain a "channel knob" to my kids but gave up).

// ScottA

I don't know how many newer TV's have something like this, but I do have a very nice manual + "digital" fine tuning control for one Samsung HDTV' monitor's analog tuner here ... It allows you to "turn off" the AFT (automatic fine tuning) and save a fine tuning adjustment per channel, it also has a LNA (low noise amplifer) inside the set and allows you to turn that on or off per channel as well ...

But, if I recall correctly, before either were useful for things such as seeing if a 2nd harmonic from a FM was present on Hi-VHF(I also used it to look for IMD, such as on the cable UHF frequencies when I had antenna hooked up to it+as an aid to help tune my channel traps), I also had to turn off it's "screen+audio Muting" function (which produces a Blue screen+blanks audio if anything other than a relatively clean NTSC analog signal is present on any given channel) in it's service menu ....

I'll try to contact the radio station engineers to see if they have any input.

Let us know how it turns out, hopefully you'll be able to find a solution ...

It would likely be "beyond the call of duty" for them, but Ideally, it probably be great if someone could stop by with a spectrum analyzer, that way they could tell if #1). you're actually receiving a harmonic "over the air" on 193 MHZ, or if #2). the "spurious" signal that may be causing interference is IMD(intermodulation distortion) being created "within" your equipment, or #3)if something else may be involved ...

If it is #2(It's difficult to say, but I'd guess there's a VERY good chance it is) , then there is something you can do about it, and you wouldn't necessarily have to get in contact with them or need their help to do it :

In addition to adding a FM trap as I mentioned earlier, another thing that might help if you don't care about low VHF analogs such as WLWT 5 or WDTN 2(which will be gone in a little over a year) would be Just using a Antenna designed for reception of only Hi-VHF(ch 7-13 - 174~213MHZ) and UHF(470~806) (Note : Antennacraft has had one for a while, and winegard has recently added a complete new line of HI-VHF/UHF antennas just for this) instead of a VHF/UHF combo designed for Lo-VHF 2-6(54~88MHZ), FM (88~108 MHZ) and UHF(470~806MHZ) ...

IF your current antenna is one of the latter (for VHF ch 2~13, FM and UHF reception, which I suspect is likely), then it is also "designed" to receive FM signals, meaning while someone 70 miles away would probably be able to get a good signal from 96 Rock with it mounted outdoors, you're only increasing the amount of blow torch signal you already have from 96.5 by using a antenna(w/o a FM trap especially) which has some signal gain on FM only 3/4 or so mile away from them ... And, strong FM signals can defintely cause issues with 'TV tuners', probably even without the use of amplifiers from as close as you are to a high power FM transmitter ... TV channel 6 is just adajacent to bottom of FM band (you can hear analog TV channel 6 audio on 87.7MHZ on FM tuners in fact) and "cable ready" analog tuners pick up most of the FM band on Cable channels 95~97, with an antenna hooked up and TV set for "cable" pickup, with manual fine tuning you can actually "tune through" FM stations on channels 95~97 ...

plughplover

01-29-08, 04:09 PM

Another option, if your TV analog tuner won't let you 'fine tune' (I also have a Samsung with the digital fine tuning), is a scanner that includes the frequencies of interest. (I've got an old Kenwood RZ-1 that would do the job stashed away someplace.) Of course all this would tell you is if the 2nd harmonic was detectable, it wouldn't be able to confirm if there was a spurious signal being generated due to overload from the primary.

BTW, did TNT include any sort of amp with the install? If so, some have a switchable FM trap built-in. Also, if they did include an amp, make sure you install any FM trap _before_ the amp, so you aren't generating the spurious signal in the amp itself.

Nitewatchman

01-30-08, 01:29 PM

^ Yeah, I was assuming he wasn't using an amp - If he is, he should probably try it without the amp in line at all as well (probably w/o any splitters/etc either if he is feeding multiple devices a feed from the antenna)...

Only other thing I can think of that is probably a long shot but might help would be if somehow the antenna could be placed or posistioned such to minimize any "spurious" signal invloving the nearby FM station while still allowing for a "good signal" from WCPO-DT and the other Cincinnati DTV stations .... I'm kind of doubtful any small "adjustments" to antenna aiming or posistioning in attic would help with that, Ideally moving antenna farther away(or oddly enough "closer" might even work as the FM signal is probably a little weaker a little closer to the tower than he is due to the height their antenna is mounted on tower, any beam tilt/etc) from the FM stations' transmitting antenna would be the best bet there, but you never know I suppose.....

ScottA

01-30-08, 05:06 PM

BTW, did TNT include any sort of amp with the install? If so, some have a switchable FM trap built-in. Also, if they did include an amp, make sure you install any FM trap _before_ the amp, so you aren't generating the spurious signal in the amp itself.

I did not need an amp with the antenna. Keep the ideas coming!! :)

// Scott A

terryfoster

02-03-08, 04:01 PM

Anyone else seeing a weird stutter on the MPEG4 feed for WXIX-DT from D*?

cadet502

02-03-08, 05:57 PM

Anyone else seeing a weird stutter on the MPEG4 feed for WXIX-DT from D*?

Terry,

I've noticed this since early in the afternoon. Check out 701 on D*, looks like they're showing the DNS in the open right now.

Since getting the MPEG4s I've skewed my antenna to the Dayton direction, and 45 is hit or miss.

Luckily, if 701 goes away, the antenna is only 10 ft from the door if I have to swing it back to 19.

rlp2955

02-03-08, 07:47 PM

fafner

02-03-08, 07:50 PM

Yes the stuttering is still on 19. Thanks for the link to channel 701!

fafner

ShaunAtk

02-04-08, 02:00 PM

Wish I would have known that it was available on 701 before they decided to tell me during half time. What makes it even worse is that I wasn't actually watching it live, I was probably 25 minutes behind on my DVR. They completely stopped the channel 19 HD feed around halftime, and when I turned to 701 it was the beginning of the fourth quarter.

planet_bill

02-04-08, 03:59 PM

I got lucky, I puased the game early, then FF through half time and caught up to live right around the 3rd quarter kickoff. I wish I knew it was on 701. the picture was giving us a head aches, so much, that it made it difficult to even enjoy beer.

scottrleo1

02-04-08, 07:20 PM

I called and complained about this to DirecTV. They gave me 10 bucks a month off for 12 months. Not much, but it is something.

ShaunAtk

02-05-08, 12:12 AM

I called and complained about this to DirecTV. They gave me 10 bucks a month off for 12 months. Not much, but it is something.

Seriously?

What'd you say?

I called in two separate times, and got nowhere...

They just told me that it was Fox's fault...

jdhughes63

02-06-08, 02:44 PM

Seriously?

What'd you say?

I called in two separate times, and got nowhere...

They just told me that it was Fox's fault...

Probaby not FOX's fault. Time Warner on Ch 919 (HD) had a great picture although 1080i would have been a tiny bit better than 720p.

Nitewatchman

02-06-08, 03:16 PM

No problems here with the Superbowl HD broadcast from
WXIX-DT OTA.

---------------------------

BTW, it does look like WKRC-DT may be currently (morning/early afternoon 2/6/07) running lower power than normal ... Still getting them just fine, but signal quality readings along with a AGC reading on one receiver seems to indicate less signal from them than usual ....

Bill R (# 2)

02-06-08, 04:09 PM

BTW, it does look like WKRC-DT may be currently (morning/early afternoon 2/6/07) running lower power than normal.

I talked to someone in engineering and she said that they currently have some "equipment problems". She did not know how long they be be on lower power.

Here, in northern Ky, I usually get them with a signal in the high 90s. Right now I am getting a signal in the low 60s and at times it drops lower and the picture breaks up. I was watching the 4 PM news and I was getting so many breakups that I switched to the analog feed.

Nitewatchman

02-06-08, 04:45 PM

^ Thanks for the info and for Calling them, Bill ... Wonder if the storms caused them any problems, I didn't notice a lot of lightning up here, but there was some ..... Perhaps when they get some time either Weasel or Xmtr Engineer will post some info ....

I can't really tell anything regarding the signal strength from the "signal quality" readings on my receivers (They're looking at BER, I believe, not signal strength), but they are showing in the high 70's or low 80's currently when they're usually 95~100 for WKRC-DT ...

An AGC reading (automatic gain control) on one receiver though does function as somewhat of an indicatior of how strong the signal is, (note that any Noise, including multipath uncorrectable by receiver or a co-channel NTSC signal/ etc will "register" on it just as a desired DTV/8VSB signal will), normally, I get a 15~18% reading from it from WKRC-DT, but it's at 24% currently (that's about the same AGC reading I get from WCVN-DT, but still get 90~100 signal "quality" readings from WCVN-DT) ... Lower AGC readings on this thing indicate stronger signal, I don't think I've ever seen a signal lock occur with it much "lower" than about 38~40% or so ....

Also, usually, It takes about 55~60db attenuation between mast mount preamp+receiver to "lose" a lock from WKRC-DT, unfortunetly I don't have that many attenuators handy to stick in line currently, but did just put a variable 20db attenuator in line before one receiver+adjusted it for max attenuation and there was no change yet in the signal quality readings on that receiver (about 80%) vs. without the "extra" added attenuation ..... So it seems the lower than normal "signal quality readings" we're getting may not be completely related to them running at lower power+that they may be having other issues as well ...

ShaunAtk

02-06-08, 06:51 PM

Probaby not FOX's fault. Time Warner on Ch 919 (HD) had a great picture although 1080i would have been a tiny bit better than 720p.

Interesting. Is there a number I can use to call fox19?

I'm gonna try DirecTV again tonight. I pay too much $$ for my service to screw me on the biggest tv night of the year...

Bill R (# 2)

02-06-08, 07:55 PM

Is there a number I can use to call fox19?

During business hours you can call (513) 421-1919 and ask to speak to an engineer.

terryfoster

02-07-08, 06:26 AM

Wait, since this wasn't the fault of WXIX-DT, why are they being called?

tvnick

02-07-08, 09:01 AM

[QUOTE=Nitewatchman;13037695]^ Thanks for the info and for Calling them, Bill ... Wonder if the storms caused them any problems, I didn't notice a lot of lightning up here, but there was some ..... Perhaps when they get some time either Weasel or Xmtr Engineer will post some info ....

I don't believe Weasel is employed by WKRC any more.

Nitewatchman

02-07-08, 12:36 PM

I don't believe Weasel is employed by WKRC any more.

Sorry to hear that, I had heard their CE went elsewhere, but hadn't heard anything about Ken ...

Anyway, difficult to say w/o any real test equipment, but WKRC-DT ERP seems more "back to normal" presently (Getting AGC reading of 18% - which is usual) .... HOWEVER "signal quality" and SNR readings are now lower than yesterday and much lower than usual ... Usually get a SNR reading of 30~33db or so, it's all the way down to about 16~17db SNR from them currently (which is just barely above threshold) ....

DaveA28

02-07-08, 12:42 PM

I check the TW Cinci site regularly for the channel lineup change notifications http://www.timewarnercable.com/cincinnati/programming/legal_notices2.html and they recently added this:

The following channels will no longer be available:

WKRC/CW, PUMA, Channel 1500 News & Info, History Channel, Biography, A & E, History International Channel, Inspirational Life, PassTime Games channel 1300 and the following On Demand services: Answers on Demand & Answers on Demand Espanol

This doesnt make sense, since they just added History HD, A&E HD a few months ago. Maybe they are dropping the SD versions of the channels?

frorule

02-07-08, 01:08 PM

No more PassTime games?! :( I play 21 or Bust when I'm really, really, really, really, really, really bored.

Do A&E and A&E HD share the same line-ups? I occasionally watch Property Ladder, Flip This/That House, etc on A&E, and I'm pretty sure they weren't offered on the HD station. Bummer A&E is going away.

pjpjpjpj

02-07-08, 01:25 PM

Sorry to jump in with a newbie non sequitur, but I just received my first HDTV today (arrived this morning, can't wait to get home and hook it up... actually, I'm feeling a little sick... {cough cough}... might have to leave early...).

I built a DB4-type antenna to use for OTA viewing, and once I get it running smoothly (antenna tweaking, making sure I solidly get all the local channels I want clearly), I plan on dropping DirecTV and going "off the grid", so to speak.

I already have the local channel listings from antennaweb, so I know what to look for (both digital and analog), but I was wondering if, in the 200 pages of this thread, there is a posting that lists all the subchannels that are available from all of the greater Cincinnati area stations. I skimmed a few pages (including the OP which listed all the local channels), but did not see mentions of subchannels.

I apologize if I just missed it. Please just point me in that direction and I will be on my way. :D

BTW, I live in Evendale (45241). I am hoping to get some Dayton/Springfield stations as well (though they are in the red zone for me according to antennaweb), but will not be heartbroken if I can't.

Nitewatchman

02-07-08, 02:37 PM

arrived this morning, can't wait to get home and hook it up... actually, I'm feeling a little sick... {cough cough}... might have to leave early...).

Let us know how it goes, as the info can be helpful to others reading, and we'll also be glad to help if you run into any problems ....

I built a DB4-type antenna to use for OTA viewing, and once I get it running smoothly (antenna tweaking, making sure I solidly get all the local channels I want clearly), I plan on dropping DirecTV and going "off the grid", so to speak.

Do keep in mind that WCPO-DT Transmits on VHF 10 (and will remain there after analog shutt off), and WKRC-DT will be moving to VHF 12 after analog shut off. Difficult to say whether or not a UHF antenna will 'be enough' for those for you, chances are better it might be if you're putting the antenna outdoors. The rest are+will be(as far as we know currently) on UHF.

Also, As already noted, WKRC-DT is having some problems currently, so you probably don't want to spend too much time trying to get that one "in" currently ....

BTW, I live in Evendale (45241). I am hoping to get some Dayton/Springfield stations as well (though they are in the red zone for me according to antennaweb), but will not be heartbroken if I can't.

I suspect you'll find you'll probably want both Dayton+Cincinnati reception for various reasons ... Do note that all the Dayton stations (except a couple of LP analogs you probably wouldn't be able to get anyway) Transmit from the same location just SW of Downtown Dayton, ... The "springfield" involves the stations coverage area/community of license rather than where they actually transmit from, although, a couple of the stations use directional transmit antennas which send more power towards Springfield than points south ....

Dayton stations coverage areas for the most part reach all the way into Northern KY, and, generally speaking should be fairly easy to receive from your location unless there are nearby terrain issues which are a problem for you. You will likely need different antenna aiming for best results from Dayton stations vs. the cincinnati stations, however. If you don't want to use a rotor, seperate Dayton/Cincinnati antennas with A/B switch before receiver to select between them is a good idea. If you're interested in WKOI(TBN) though, you might need a "3rd direction" for antenna aiming for them ....

Dayton's CW (They have HD, Cincinnati CW affiliate, a multicast SD "subchannel" on WKRC-DT is SD only) May be a little tough, however, especially if you don't have the antenna outdoors, as they use a directional antenna pattern which doesn't favor the South(probably partly because of WLEX 18 Lexington, KY being co-channel) and are transmitting at lower power than the others, in fact it's the lowest power "full power" UHF DTV allowcation I'm aware of (35KW ERP, and you won't get that much sent your way, nowhere near it due to their directional transmit antenna).

Note that Antennaweb info on WPTO-DT's transmitting location is incorrect. While WPTO 14 analog transmits from Oxford, WPTO digital transmits from WXIX-DT's tower in Cincinnati, not from WKOI's tower(between oxford and trenton) as is shown in Antennaweb info ... The antennaweb info on them is based on their orignal permit to build their digital station, which was changed some 5+ years ago .... who knows what other inaccuracies are involved for the antennaweb data (as there is no way to "check" their data regarding stations facilities, such as involving ERP, directional antenna patterns/etc), I do know the info at www.tvfool.com is currently accurate regarding the stations in our area however ...

I was wondering if, in the 200 pages of this thread, there is a posting that lists all the subchannels that are available from all of the greater Cincinnati area stations.

Probably somewhere in there, but they're probably out of date and there are none I have a link to which I could refer you to .... There are so many of them+they change every now and then ....

Currently for Dayton/Cincinnati area digital stations it's like this, this will probably cover the digital stations you should be able to receive (note: you can find more detailed info on the programming each "subchannel" has on the stations' websites -- you'll find links to those in first post of this thread) Note #2 - I noted below info on the 3 stations which will be moving after analog shut off, the rest will be staying where they are :

WDTN DT 50 (remaps to 2.x) - Dayton

2.1 - NBC HD/1080i/DD 5.1
2.2 - 480i SD digital simulcast of WDTN analog

WLWT-DT 35 (remaps to 5.x) - Cincinnati

5.1 - NBC HD/1080i/DD 5.1
5.2 - NBC/WLWT WeatherPlus

WHIO-DT 41 (remaps to 7.x) - Dayton

7.1 - CBS HD/1080i/DD 5.1
7.2 - 7 Weather Now (480i SD)

WCPO-DT 10 (remaps to 9.x) - Cincinnati

9.1 - ABC HD/720p/DD 5.1
9.2 - 9 Weather (480i)

WKRC-DT 31 (remaps to 12.x) - (note Moving to 12 after analog shut off) - Cincinnati

12.1 - CBS HD/DD 2.0
12.2 - Cin CW (480i SD)

WPTO-DT 28 (remaps to 14.x) - Oxford, OH - transmits from WXIX tower Cincinnati

14.2 - ThinkTV14 480i simulcast of analog)
14.3 - ThinkTVPrime (480i)
14.4 - ThinkTVlearn (480i)
14.5 - ThinkTV world (480i)
14.6 - ThinkTV14HD 1080i/DD 2.0 (HD or SD widescreen only 8~11pm nightly - otherwise it's upconvert of 14.3 programming)

WPTD-DT 58 (remaps to 16.x) - Dayton (Note this one is moving to 16 after analog shut off)

16.2 - ThinkTV16 - 480i simulcast of analog
16.3 - ThinkTV16again - 480i
16.4 - Create - 480i
16.5 - ThinkTVOhio (ohio channel)
16.6 - PBS HD feed 24/7, 1080i/DD 2.0

WXIX-DT 29 (remaps to 19.x) - Cincinnati

19.1 - Fox HD /720p/DD 5.1
19.2 - No programming, currently a barker channel that says "the tube" no longer available (The tube music videos was here until early fall 2007 before they went out of business)

WKEF-DT 51 (remaps to 22.1) - Dayton

22.1 - 720p/ABC HD/DD 5.1

WBDT-DT 18 (remaps to 26.1) - Dayton - Note: Moving to 26 after analog shut off

26.1 - CW HD/1080i/DD 5.1

WKOI-DT 39 (remaps to 43.x) - Transmits from between oxford+Trenton, Community of License = Richmond, IN

43.1 - Simulcast of WKOI 43 analog (480i SD)
43.2 - Church channel (480i SD)
43.3 - JCTV (480i SD)
43.4 - TBN Enlace (480i SD)
43.5 - Smile of a child (480i SD)

WRGT-DT 30 (remaps to 45.x) - Dayton

45.1 - 720p/Fox HD/DD 5.1
45.2 - MyTV - 480i SD

WCET-DT 34 (remaps to 48.x) - Cincinnati

48.1 - simulcast of WCET 48 analog - HD only(and DD 5.1) when the programming being aired is available in HD, otherwise it's 1080i upconvert ...

48.2 - PBS World (480i)

WCVN-DT 24 (remaps to 54.x) - Covington, KY

54. 1 - KET1 - KET/PBS programs
54.2 - KET2 - KET/PBS programs
54.3 - KETKY 12am~8pm daily - all KY programming - 720p PBS/KET HD 8pm~12am nightly
54.4 - KETED - KET school programming, active 12am~8pm daily.

WSTR-DT 33 (remaps to 64.x) - Cincinnati

64.1 - MyTV HD/720p/DD 2.0 (note they have DD 5.1 capability, but MyTV only sends DD 2.0) ...

-------------------------------

As for LP's, we don't have any LP digital's on air yet, although as recently discussed several have CP's (construction permits) to build digitial stations --- but you should be able to get good analog reception of the following Cincinnati LP analogs :

WOTH-LP 25 (the "other channel")
W36DG - TBN LP translator
WBQC-CA 38 ("it's 38"/Independant)

You might get something from WRCX-LP 40 Dayton(IND) as well, but it might be a little "snowy", even with your antenna outdoors .... You probably won't have much luck with the other 3 Dayton/springfield Lp's ..

pjpjpjpj

02-07-08, 02:59 PM

Thanks, Nitewatchman. I'll be sure to come back and report what I find.

Any idea where I can find a list of all the local subchannels? I understand there is an all-weather channel from WCPO, and that CET has several channels, etc....

Nitewatchman

02-07-08, 03:12 PM

Any idea where I can find a list of all the local subchannels? I understand there is an all-weather channel from WCPO, and that CET has several channels, etc....

Oops, I had included the list in my last post but accidently deleted it during editing ... It's back in there now ....

update: Oh, over the air, CET digital currently has TWO program services (i.e. "subchannels") as is shown in the list in my last post ... I believe they explain this on their website somewhere as well.

At one time, it is true they had as many as four SD multicast services(OTA), and they do offer "create" via TW cable (not OTA), and if they still have it PBSKids, and If I recall correctly a feed of the Ohio channel ... You can get those, OTA from WPTD-DT Dayton, except for PBSKids which PBS made "cable only" a couple of years ago ....

Also note, as noted in first post of thread, WCET (digital+analog) goes off air OTA 3 or 4 nights a week between 1am~6am (or 7am, don't recall exactly - I think it's either mon~thur or Mon~Wed night they do that) ... The other stations all are up 24/7, except for maintainence/etc ....

jimp2244

02-07-08, 03:25 PM

Oops, I had included the list in my last post but accidently deleted it during editing ... It's back in there now ....
Forgot 5-2 NBC Weather Plus

I know that was a lot of typing :)

Nitewatchman

02-07-08, 03:34 PM

Forgot 5-2 NBC Weather Plus

I know that was a lot of typing :)

Yep, thanks, especially when you're doing 5 other things ....

jimp2244

02-07-08, 03:34 PM

I plan on dropping DirecTV and going "off the grid", so to speak.Welcome to the antenna only (free HDTV!) club.

BTW, I live in Evendale (45241). I am hoping to get some Dayton/Springfield stations as well (though they are in the red zone for me according to antennaweb), but will not be heartbroken if I can't.You are fairly close to me (Sharonville 45242). I get all of the Cincinnati and Dayton stations with a fairly "medium sized" VHF/UHF combo antenna mounted on the roof.

Dayton's CW (They have HD, Cincinnati CW affiliate, a multicast SD "subchannel" on WKRC-DT is SD only) May be a little tough, howeverWBDT-DT 18 is definately the hardest digital channel to receive in this area, but with proper aiming of the antenna I have no reception issues with it. Before I had the antenna outside, I was getting all of the Cincinnati and Dayton stations with an indoor antenna by a 2nd story window except WBDT-DT.

ansarar

02-07-08, 03:37 PM

Are all of you still seeing the stutter on channel 19 for the Super Bowl feed? It was driving me crazy...had no idea it was also on 701 (which looks fine) until a few minutes ago. Glad to know it isn't just my issue...

Didn't notice any stutter except there were two very short (2 seconds?) cutouts during the game, at least here in Mason, OH. No other issues. Since I'm OTA, any other issues are probably that of your provider.

jimp2244

02-07-08, 03:46 PM

Didn't notice any stutter except there were two very short (2 seconds?) cutouts during the game, at least here in Mason, OH. No other issues. Since I'm OTA, any other issues are probably that of your provider.
Based on posts here and in the programming topics, the issue was with DirecTV. Those that watched with cable or OTA did not have the persistent studdering issues.

Just FYI, DirecTV had a channel (721 maybe?) that was carrying the Super Bowl HD feed from the FOX New York City affiliate available to everyone. I believe this was because of the problems they were having including the issues with their transmission of WXIX-DT. Sorry I'm not a DirecTV subscriber so not 100% sure on the details, but that's what the "word" seems to be.

ShaunAtk

02-07-08, 06:03 PM

Wait, since this wasn't the fault of WXIX-DT, why are they being called?

I was just going to call them and see what they had to say about it. Then when I called DirecTV I would have more info to use against D*

terryfoster

02-08-08, 06:56 AM

I was just going to call them and see what they had to say about it. Then when I called DirecTV I would have more info to use against D*

I wouldn't bother the good folks at WXIX-DT. Their broadcast was solid, I switched to the OTA broadcast before the game when I posted about the problem. With the number of other posts I think it's easy to see D* had a problem while OTA and cable viewers were unaffected.

I also wouldn't waste my time calling D*. While they may have been willing to hand out apologies ($) on Sunday when emotions were high, it's unlikely they will be so willing today. The problem persisted on Monday, I'm not sure about Tuesday, but this issue seems to have been resolved as of Wednesday.

Splicer010

02-08-08, 07:50 AM

WXIX-DT looked FABULOUS for the game...TWC...QAM...

pjpjpjpj

02-08-08, 12:50 PM

A very happy report from Evendale OH, 45241:

So here I sit, the morning after hooking up my new HDTV with my 4-bay, “DB4 clone” homemade antenna, and I am one happy camper. :D The initial channel scan brought in 37 channels, 20 digital and 17 analog. Every digital station that I get is crystal clear, and the HD ones are GORGEOUS (I don't watch "Lost" but I stopped for 5 minutes last night and watched it, just mesmerized by the colors!)

I have not checked on signal reception numbers, but in watching TV most of last evening, I never saw one little blip on any of the digital stations. It was a cloudy, overcast night, though not raining.

The crazy part is how easy this was. In my haste to build it, my antenna does not even have a reflector, it’s just the hanger wire bowties. And even better is where it is located - it’s leaning against the wall behind the TV armoire, in my family room, which is on the side of the house opposite where all the signals are coming from. I can’t imagine what I might be getting if I added reflectors, put it in the attic, doubled it to be a “DB8”, or put it outside on the roof. Of course, with how pleased I am right now, I might not bother, as adding more might hurt my reception of the current lineup… not to mention I would get the loss of adding coax length, as it currently has about 4 feet of coax from antenna to TV tuner.

I know I live in a more suburban area (closer to towers) than many here, and I also am at the top of a hill, so I shouldn’t be bragging too much about my antenna… but I still can’t express how ecstatic I am at how well this cheap, ugly little DIY antenna worked (sitting behind the TV no less), and how easy it was. Add my name to the list of satisfied (or “blown-away”) participants in this thread!

Note: Nitewatchman, thanks for posting all of that info, though I did not see it until this morning (after getting hooked up last night). I hope you were able to paste that from previous work and didn't re-type the whole thing just for me! :eek:

Note 2, re: Nitewatchman's listings: I am not currently getting any of the Dayton digital stations. Perhaps it would be worth adding the reflectors, then moving it to the attic, to try to get some of those... specifically Fox and CBS for next year if they show different market NFL games than Cincinnati! ;)

Nitewatchman

02-08-08, 02:29 PM

Note: Nitewatchman, thanks for posting all of that info, though I did not see it until this morning (after getting hooked up last night). I hope you were able to paste that from previous work and didn't re-type the whole thing just for me! :eek:

I can type faster than I can think.

Next time someone asks, now you can answer that question ;)

Perhaps it would be worth adding the reflectors, then moving it to the attic, to try to get some of those...

I don't know what the actual performance charactieristics of your homemade antenna is, but, if it were similar to a Cm4221 or DB4, Actually, if you're attempting to receive both Dayton+Cincinnati stations with the same antenna/same antenna posistioning, any bowtie (including 4-bay/8bay/etc) is made bi-directional by not having the reflector present, which suggests you should probably experience better results for receiving both Dayton+Cincinnati with the reflector removed ... Although, you'd probably acheive better results with the reflector present and antenna "aimed" at Dayton for Dayton reception and aimed at Cincinnati for Cincinnati reception ... Again, however difficult to say what the actual performance characteristics of your antenna is regarding it's directivity/gain, since we can't look at a polar plot for it ....

specifically Fox and CBS for next year if they show different market NFL games than Cincinnati! ;)

They do sometimes, to get an idea, you can dig back through this thread and see jimp2244's nice weekly lists of what station had what game ...

There are also plenty of other reasons to receive the Dayton stations as well, however. Some examples are PBS HD 24/7 from WPTD-DT currently as well as some of their multicast services, CW HD from Dayton, When something "goes wrong" at a Cincinnati station, you have Dayton as a back up, when a Cincinnati or Dayton station preempts network HD programming for "other" programming(billy graham, a "local" movie, local sports, local news), you can get the network HD from the other market's affiliate, or when one clutters up the screen or distorts the aspect ratio to "squeeze in" stuff such as school closings info(and/or drops from HD) for local "weather alerts", many times, the Dayton or Cincinnati affiliate won't ...

Nitewatchman

02-08-08, 02:34 PM

WKRC-DT situation appears to have gotten worse as of currently, I'm getting indication of signal from them but cannot achieve a lock/reception ..... That's the first time I can ever remember that happening when they had a signal up over the past 6 1/2 years ....

update: Just checked another receiver, the WKRC-DT signal is still very strong according to AGC reading, but it's S/N reading is showing 10db, some 6db "below" a lock ....

Unless I've suddenly got a new source of strong interference or mulitpath effecting ch 31, in short, "more or less" it seems the WKRC-DT signal is currently probably more "noise" than it is a 8VSB signal recognizable by receiver ...

jimp2244

02-08-08, 02:54 PM

I am one happy camper.Glad to hear of your good (and easy) results.

Note 2, re: Nitewatchman's listings: I am not currently getting any of the Dayton digital stations. Perhaps it would be worth adding the reflectors, then moving it to the attic, to try to get some of those... specifically Fox and CBS for next year if they show different market NFL games than Cincinnati! ;)FOX and CBS do often show different games in Dayton than in Cincinnati, and you can also get around the blackout restrictions in Cincinnati (when Bengals are on TV, playing at home on one Network (CBS for example) the other network (FOX) can't show a game at the same time. However Dayton FOX can). Also as has been mentioned, the only way to get the CW in HD is with WBDT-DT 18 (26-1) Dayton, which will most likely be the most challenging station to receive.

jimp2244

02-08-08, 03:13 PM

jimp2244

02-08-08, 03:26 PM

WKRC-DT has a faulty exciter. It could be Tuesday or Wednesday before the repair is completed.

jimp2244

02-08-08, 03:30 PM

pjpjpjpj, the current situation with WKRC-DT is a perfect example of why having the Dayton stations can be good. :)

Nitewatchman

02-08-08, 03:34 PM

WKRC-DT has a faulty exciter. It could be Tuesday or Wednesday before the repair is completed.

Thanks Jim ... That makes sense .. And yep, As you say Another good current reason for OTA folks to have Dayton reception, in this case of WHIO-DT for CBS HD -- although, *generally* this sort of thing has been very rare, especially the past couple of years, you just never know what might happen (i.e. "murphy's law"), and how long stations may be down ...

I do hope the stations which will be moving to different channels post transistion don't have too many problems between now and then with their current DTV plants though, especially in cases when any new equipment they may have to purchase will not be useable with their post-transistion facilities .....

Anyway, Doesn't appear like the signal is going "out of channel",(or that the problem involves any adaptive corrections being sent to exciter, that has happened once before regarding another station in the area) at least into channel 30 (I can't really tell regarding 32) as for instance on one receiver here that does very well with multipath+low signal levels, I can still get a lock/decode WRGT-DT 30 to some extent with antenna aimed at WKRC-DT, so at least that's good news if they're going to keep the signal on air until they can get it fixed ....

microbob

02-08-08, 06:53 PM

I can't get the signal to lock on my Zenith TV with its internal ATSC decoder. Not that it's related to the problem with the exciter, WKRC recently lost its director of engineering to Tribune Broadcasting. I imagine things are still in flux until the stations sale is complete.

This is from Kiesewetter's TV Blog last month.

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/tv/2008_01_01_default.asp

WKRC-TV (Channel 12) has lost another key manager as employees wait for Clear Channel to sell its TV division.

Local 12 Director of Engineering Hank Hundemer, a 13-year veteran, leaves Jan. 25 to join Randy Michaels' TV operation. He will be vice president for engineering for "The Other Company," a division of Tribune Media, he says.

Nitewatchman

02-08-08, 08:05 PM

^ Yeah, I'd seen that about WKRC CE and Michaels' Outfit ...

Here's another article from a few days ago that says a bit about WKRC's current situation :

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6528296.html

Looks like the situation is defintely "in flux", So I certianly don't want to "exacberate" the situation any, so I hope this doesn't offend anyone ... But, I can't help but think, I wonder How long a "cash cow" will produce milk if it's not fed properly ?

pjpjpjpj

02-09-08, 09:00 AM

Well, "Tuesday or Wednesday" must have been a conservative prediction, because I have WKRC back this morning (Saturday). 12.1 is coming in at 76%. Glad they fixed it quickly.

jimp2244

02-09-08, 09:44 AM

Well, "Tuesday or Wednesday" must have been a conservative prediction, because I have WKRC back this morning (Saturday). 12.1 is coming in at 76%. Glad they fixed it quickly.

Yes, TSReader is giving me "Locked 97%" and 32dBm right now. I wonder if they have replaced equipment or if they have made temporary tweaks to keep things going until they get the replacements.

Nitewatchman

02-09-08, 01:00 PM

While -32dBm signal strentgh for WKRC-DT would likely make sense for jimp2244's location(probably with use of outdoor receive antenna), I've noticed What Tsreader will say will vary depending upon drivers/input source used/etc ... 100% and -7dBm is the maximum reading using ATSC BDA Source +the current drivers I'm using with Hauppauge WinTV-HVR1600(note that the -7dbm is not an accurate signal strength reading, I imagine I'd be having serious signal overload problems if it was), the threshold for reception is about a 70% reading, but with the same ATSC BDA Source and older drivers for the card, Threshold is about 50% and there's a lot more "range" to the reading between 50+100% ... It doesn't take "much" to get a 100% reading with the new drivers, in fact I get that 100%/-7dbm reading from all the locals ...

Anyway, everything looks good and "as normal" from them here, currently ..

AGC : 18% (very strong as normal)

SNR : 30db (likely indicates a very "clean" signal, can't say this is an "accurate" reading, but 33~34db SNR is probably about the max possible)

Signal quality readings - 95~100% on various receivers ...

Bill R (# 2)

02-09-08, 01:16 PM

I can't let this day go by without wishing the folks at WLWT a happy 60th anniversary.

For you "youngsters" out there WLWT was Cincinnati's first TV station. When they started in 1948 they showed programs from four networks (NBC, ABC, CBS and DuMont).

A nice history of WLWT is here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WLWT)

Nitewatchman

02-09-08, 01:33 PM

I can't let this day go by without wishing the folks at WLWT a happy 60th anniversary.
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Yes -- Also :

#1). It also marks the 10 year aniversary of WLWT-DT (digital), as they reportedly put the first DTV signal on the air in this area 10 years ago today, on their 50th Anniversary .... Note that it is quite likely no one "saw it", as I doubt there was anyone with a Digital TV receiver in Feburary 1998 ... They displaced WOTH-LP analog off of 35 to do it .... update/note: there used to be info on it on either the WLWT or hearst website, but I can't seem to dig it up, currently - There's a interesting little story about it 1/2 way into the following article (note/updated : They refer to WOTH as "WBA", apparently because at the time, looking it up in FCC database their callsign was W35BA, so the "WBA" refers to them without the "35" -- By fall 1998, they had moved to 39 with callsign of W39CG , They were of course displaced again off 39 by WKOI-DT when it came on air, and they moved to 25 using WBQC-CA's old facilities as they are now when WBQC-CA moved from 25 to 38 a few years back ....) :

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1998/04/28/BU72873.DTL

Update: Also, I think it was for their 50th aniversary, or "sometime" around then that for several weeks before/during/after the anniversary, I remember WLWT was airing some of their "classic" TV shows on Weekends -- Such as Midwestern Hayride, Paul Dixon+Bob Braun shows ....

#2). W8XCT was Crosley's "experimental" TV station, and was predecessor to WLWT, they were licensed as early as the mid~late 30's ...

BTW, there's also a nice WLWT/Crosley "history" article from 1999 here :

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/1999/06/06/loc_this_is_crosley.html

pjpjpjpj

02-10-08, 02:33 PM

jkbert2

02-10-08, 02:43 PM

pjpjpjpj

02-10-08, 03:05 PM

I am having problems with (WKRC) CBS today and also yesterday. It keeps scrambling. I have never had this before with this channel. Is it because of the wind, or something else. It's kind of pissing me off.
Hmmm. I'm having no problems (Evendale 45241, indoor 4-bay). Just finished watching OSU/Indiana and now they jumped to golf. Everything looking clear, a solid 82%... if you are wondering about wind, I assume you have an outdoor antenna?

Splicer010

02-10-08, 03:16 PM

These stations have no issues...If you are OTA receiving then one could only pressume that the wind is affecting your reception...It only takes 1 branch or leaf to throw a monkey wrench into things...

jkbert2

02-10-08, 03:53 PM

It's weird because I have never had this problem. It is over the air and it is outside. So who knows maybe it is the wind. I have checked the signal strength and it reads 100% then goes down to 78% or so every once in a while.

pjpjpjpj

02-10-08, 03:53 PM

Is WCPO-DT out? I'm not getting anything at all for 9.1 or 9.2. I first noticed it last night (Saturday night) and it's still not coming in today. I am getting "No Signal" (0%). Where do I find out their status (or has anyone checked already)?
These stations have no issues...If you are OTA receiving then one could only pressume that the wind is affecting your reception...It only takes 1 branch or leaf to throw a monkey wrench into things...

Okay, noob mistake on my part (though odd, I suppose it's the nature of the beast)... my antenna is indoors so I knew it was not wind or whatever.... but I moved the antenna 4 inches left - literally, 4 inches! - and now I have 9.1 and 9.2 back, crystal clear. It's amazing how strange and mystical the airwaves can be.... :o

pjpjpjpj

02-10-08, 05:02 PM

I probably should post this in a specific AVS Forum category, but there are a few here that seem to really know their stuff (and read frequently), so I thought I would ask for help here. If there is a good explanation in layman's terms elsewhere, please just point me there.

So now that I'm in the OTA HD world, and I'm toying around with my DIY antenna, I want to know what I should be looking for, in terms of reception data.

Under diagnostics on my TV (Sony W-series), I have the "level" which is the basic 0-100 scale of reception - that part, I understand. But there are two other numbers that seem to be constantly in flux. One is "SNR(dB)", and the other is "AGC(%)".

What are these numbers, and what should I ideally be looking for? As an example, right now, I am watching golf on CBS and I have a "level" of 82, an AGC% moving around in the range of 22 to 25 or so, and the SNR is moving around between roughly 28.90 and 29.87.

Can someone explain what these numbers mean? Before I start fiddling around with my antenna, trying to get better reception, I want to know what I should look for in terms of these numbers (besides just the 0-100 reception "level").

Thanks!

jimp2244

02-10-08, 06:23 PM

I am guessing AGC is "Automatic Gain Control" which automatically adjusts the amount of gain to provide a more "steady" signal. The SNR is more important, at least for you to check, as it is the "Signal to Noise Ratio." The SNR is a measure of the strength of the signal versus the other "noise" that's on the airwaves. I believe you need an SNR of about 16dB or higher to properly decode ATSC signals (digital TV). Higher than this, perfect picture, lower than this, no picture. Of course the number will be fluctuating which is why you could see drop outs if your SNR is close to that border.

kyaj2

02-10-08, 06:29 PM

pjpjpjpj

02-10-08, 08:21 PM

Just curious - what HD (or just digital) channels, out of all those available to the Cincinnati area via OTA, are available for free from Time-Warner Cincinnati through QAM? Do you get the multiple subchannels (14, 43, 48, etc.) along with the standard 5, 9, 12, 19?

plughplover

02-10-08, 11:51 PM

Where I am (Fairfield) I get:

Both WLWT subchannels
Both WKRC subchannels
Only WCPO's main feed (weather on its own analog channel)
Five WCET subchannels (some are not available OTA)
WXIX's single feed
WSTR's single feed
WCVN's five KET feeds (varies)

which gives you up to 7 HD channels

In addition, I get SD-only digital feeds of three Dayton stations and various others (TBN, EWTN, local gov't access channels, etc).

I used to get TNT-HD and Discovery Theater, but they encrypted them last August. Some areas get those or other digital cable channels in the clear.

However, note that some (not all) of us have had problems with TWC's clear QAM feeds and have had little success getting them addressed, so it depends upon how robust the decoders are in your set as to how well it will work. (I guess it will just take time and more people attempting to use those feeds before TWC will give them a bit more attention.)

And by the way - you only need to subscribe to BASIC service to receive those feeds - 'Standard' or a Digital package are not required.

jimp2244

02-11-08, 07:33 AM

Hello...

New to this forum, looking for any suggestions you might be able to give...

Zip 45013, semi-rural area outside of Hamilton, in a bit of a valley but on the second floor of taller house...

Using Terk HDTVi, getting no signal from WCPO

Antenna was facing south...got all Cincy stations but WCPO, got one Dayton (Ch. 2)

Antenna now facing north...getting 2, 5, 12, 14, 16, 19, 22 (in and out), 43, 45, 48, 64

Missing 7, 9, 26, 54. My guide says WTTV, WAVE, and WKON are possible, but I'm not holding my breath.

Any ideas for the missing pieces, especially WCPO?

Great forum & thread here...already been a lot of help. Thanks a bunch...

I believe the HDTVi antenna does have a VHF element (needed for WCPO-DT now and will be needed for WKRC-DT after next February). Make sure it's extended and realize that that is what you need to adjust/position for WCPO-DT which is on VHF channel 10.

I see and hear about a LOT of people trying to get WCPO-DT with an indoor antenna and not having much luck. My best advice to you if you want trouble free reception is to get a proper outdoor antenna set up. That's not to say you can't have any luck with an indoor set up, but TV having been designed for outdoor antennas, that's what you should use for reliable reception. You wouldn't try to get satellite TV with your dish set up indoors would you? Again, not saying indoor antennas can't work...

Best advice is probably to get the antenna as close to a window facing the direction of the towers as possible. Also, while we still have the analog channels around, it's often helpful to use them. Tune an analog TV to channel 9 (WCPO analog) and adjust your antenna to make that channel as clear as possible. If you see anything on the screen other than fuzz, such as dots or diagonal lines, it is most likely a sign of interference of some sort. Ghosting is a sign of multipath.

As for the other channels you mentioned, WAVE analog (Louisville NBC affiliate) you may be able to receive and have be watchable (I can watch it here in Sharonville, but I'm south of you). WTTV analog (Indianapolis CW) I can "see" but is not watchable except under extremely friendly tropospheric conditions; you may have better luck than me where you are, but I doubt you can see it at all with an indoor antenna. I doubt you will have any luck with WKON (PBS/KET Owenton, KY) either but it is the exact same thing as WCVN so not much reason to "go after" it.

blbrodbeck

02-11-08, 10:32 AM

I had TWC QAM & got rid of it. Because with an antenna I could get all of those channels (That I would watch) AND all of the Ch. 14 channels as well for FREE. Ch 14-6 is sometimes in HD too.

Also with an antenna the program info is there, with TWC QAM it's seldom there.

pjpjpjpj

02-11-08, 10:33 AM

zekyl

02-11-08, 11:36 AM

I check the TW Cinci site regularly for the channel lineup change notifications http://www.timewarnercable.com/cincinnati/programming/legal_notices2.html and they recently added this:

This doesnt make sense, since they just added History HD, A&E HD a few months ago. Maybe they are dropping the SD versions of the channels?

If you read the link, it says: "The following agreements with programmers are due to expire soon, and we may be required to cease carriage of one or more of these services in the near future".

So I don't think they are going to terminate the service, just getting close to expiration of their contract.

jim tressler

02-11-08, 01:58 PM

they are most likely in negotiations. I would bet that if the CW is still on the air - TWC will carry it via what the rest of us know as 12-2

DaveA28

02-11-08, 08:57 PM

If you read the link, it says: "The following agreements with programmers are due to expire soon, and we may be required to cease carriage of one or more of these services in the near future".

So I don't think they are going to terminate the service, just getting close to expiration of their contract.

They must have fixed it. The text I quoted was on that page a few days ago.

jim tressler

02-11-08, 10:12 PM

i think the cw agreement expired with twc

gerhard911

02-14-08, 10:38 PM

Does anyone here watch KET ? If so, I can't believe that their problems haven't been brought up in this thread before.

I am experiencing severe video problems with the HD subchannel. It freezes quite frequently for seconds at a time. The audio continues but I would guess the video feed is bit starved.

I have noticed this both on TW QAM and OTA via a wide variety of input devices (HD-HomeRun, VisionTek 650 Theater, AverMedia M780 on my HT-PCs + TW-Pace550 digital set top box & Hannspree Xv37 QAM & ATSC tuners).

In addition to the HD video issues, the program guide information that I get via BeyondTV has been FUBAR for quite some time. Programs are inaccurately mapped to KET subchannels to the point that I have given up recording any KET programming. I really enjoy Jubilee, Woodsongs, Soundstage and Austin City Limits. While some of these are available on CET, it has it's own issues with bit starved multicasting.

At this point local PBS broadcasting is dead to me, a victim of poorly implemented multicasting.

Nitewatchman

02-14-08, 11:30 PM

Does anyone here watch KET ?

I watch KET quite often, including KET HD.

If so, I can't believe that their problems haven't been brought up in this thread before.

If I notice something wrong, when I have the time I usually contact them+report it (usually to William), but I did forget about last night until I saw your post ...

I am experiencing severe video problems with the HD subchannel. It freezes quite frequently for seconds at a time. The audio continues but I would guess the video feed is bit starved.

Noticed That just before 11pm, with various sorts of video corruption during the freezes(bottom 1/2 frame just turned all "blue" during one of the freezes for example), and last night I had tuned over there for a bit sometime between 11pm~12am there was no audio.

But (just monitoring out of corner of eye here) since 11pm I've haven't noticed any problems on KETHD ... Also, just took about a 7 minute capture(From about 11:03pm~11:10pm EST) of their TS and ran the KETHD streams through TS "repair" software (it identifies various sorts of encoding errors/etc as well as any continuity/TEI errors due to reception issues/etc. = and sort of "fixes" any errors it finds so that players won't crash/etc. on those errors ) and it found no problems.

In addition to the HD video issues, the program guide information that I get via BeyondTV has been FUBAR for quite some time.

I don't know where that(BeyondTV) EPG comes from but FWIW I've noticed the EPG info KET sends OTA via PSIP EIT's has usually been consistantly quite accurate - But they've had some problems with it now and then, just about everyone has it seems.

The attached text file is the current EPG Info for them I have from their EIT's(for next 12 hours+) if you want to check the EPG info KET sends vs. What your getting from BeyondTV ...

robmadden1

02-15-08, 02:25 AM

During Soundstage on CET 48.1 at 2am (Feb. 15) every so often the audio would cut out for 1 second. Id would been nice to watch John Fogerty without the 1 second pauses in the audio. I couls have watched it on KET2 but 48.1 has better picture quallity.

jimp2244

02-15-08, 07:18 AM

In addition to the HD video issues, the program guide information that I get via BeyondTV has been FUBAR for quite some time. Programs are inaccurately mapped to KET subchannels to the point that I have given up recording any KET programming. I really enjoy Jubilee, Woodsongs, Soundstage and Austin City Limits. While some of these are available on CET, it has it's own issues with bit starved multicasting.

At this point local PBS broadcasting is dead to me, a victim of poorly implemented multicasting.

I don't know where that(BeyondTV) EPG comes from

BeyondTV gets its program guide info from their own service, that is provided for free for life to anyone who buys their software. The software contacts the BeyondTV server via the Internet and downloads the program guide information from there. BeyondTV doesn't get any program guide info from the local stations broadcast streams.

I use BeyondTV as well and have not noticed any issues. I will try to remember to check WCVN KET to see if I am having the same guide problems. I do watch a lot of PBS as well but most of mine is from WCET.

pjpjpjpj

02-15-08, 07:57 AM

Hey gerhard911, sorry to change the subject, but how many tuners do you have running with your HTPC? I'm particularly curious about the HDHomerun (just got one, but waiting on an HD Extender before I hook it up as I am doing hardware encoding only). Do you have the same source (OTA antennas, or TW QAM) into both tuners? Or have you tried one source into one tuner and another into the other?

Specifically, I was wondering if I could run two different antennas, facing different directions (thus receiving different stations), into the two tuner inputs, and still have my software (likely SageTV) be able to record the appropriate programming from the appropriate tuner. I would like to have one antenna facing SSW for Cincinnati stations and another facing NNE for Dayton....

gerhard911

02-15-08, 09:33 AM

jimp2244 & Nitewatchman,

Just to clarify my guide issues, the BTV guide seems to have the programs for KET mapped to the wrong KET subchannels. If I setup a recording using the guide to capture the QAM channel that shows Jubilee, I will get a program that was listed on one of the other KET channels.

I am working around this by recording the OTA ATSC stream which captures all of the KET subs. I then use Video ReDo to edit the program I wanted from the stream. No real biggie since I have the option but an annoyance that has been going on for quite a while. It may have even gotten fixed by now as I have not attempted any QAM recordings in several days.

The video problems I have match Jeff's description. They have been plaguing my recordings for several days rendering them useless.

pjpjpjpj,

I have two PC's that can record six simultaneous programs. The main HTPC can record TW-Digital cable via set top box S-video out into the VisionTek 650 PCIe analog input + ATSC OTA into its digital input. It can also record analog cable via an ATI 650 PCI.

My other PC can do two QAM programs via the HD-HomeRun + either ATSC or analog cable via the AverMedia M780.

The HD-HR can reportedly do 1 tuner QAM + 1 tuner ATSC but I have not tried that. Your question about dual antennas should work but with BTV you would have to assign each tuner to a specific channel lineup (Cincy or Dayton). To avoid taking this too far off topic, there is much great info here:

HD HomeRun thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=731457&highlight=hd+homerun)

Silicondust forum (http://www.silicondust.com/forum/)

BeyondTV forum (http://forums.snapstream.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=25)

I am sure the same applies to the Sage forum.