Cincinnati, OH - HDTV [Text View] - Page 37

Nitewatchman

02-17-08, 03:33 PM

this is going to be "sloppy" as I'm in a hurry, but a few comments on various things follow :

KETHD Re: Yep, haven't had much of a chance to check, but last time I saw any Glitches was Fri evening 8pm program ... And all looked well last night during HD soundstage on KETHD.

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pjpjpj -- just a thought, FWIW - I don't use BTV, and am not sure what/why you are wanting to do that regarding Cincinnati antenna on one input/one tuner and Dayton on another ---- but FWIW, I currently am using only ONE ATSC tuner card in my HTPC (it's a hauppauge WINTV1600) and regarding the software I use with it for capturing("DVR'ing") I have no problems using it for both Dayton+Cincinnati stations with either antenna with rotor, or with Seperate Dayton/Cincinnati antennas and a A/B switch before receiver to switch between the antennas ...

Also, If I were to add another tuner to the HTPC, I'd probably also want to be able to capture from both or either Cincinnati+Dayton stations "at the same time", so I'd just want a A/B switch before either one ... Of course, in any case you'd have to do this, but you have to probably be especially careful if you are using guide based scheduled recordings with that sort of setup, to make sure (manually) the a/b switch is set properly for the "right antenna" before any set "recording" takes place ... Who knows, Maybe someday they'll have PC DVR software and PC ATSC capture cards with "Smart Antenna" interfaces to take care of this sort of thing, although that would require use of a "smartantenna" as well, and I don't think those are exactly easy to find, currently ...

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All,

Have been busy+at the new Middletown hospital(opened in Dec 2007) visiting family much of the last few days ... Reason I bring that up is because I thought it was interesting that :

#1). Looks like they are using OTA pickup for the Dayton+Cincinnti area broadcast DTV/HD signals they are using, and remodulating them/stripping PSIP ... I don't know if they're using QAM or 8VSB, but these show up on major/minor channel #'s 3.x ~ 13.x - if the major Channel #'s are actually "RF" channel #'s, then looks like they are using VHF and 8VSB or QAM for the broadcast signals, and UHF and NTSC for the "cablenets" which they are only receiving SD versions of, I believe from D* (there was a D* logo instead of NASCAR from ESPN2 yesterday, for some reason) --- I didn't write them down, but from memory looks like these are the broadcast signals(and the only HD signals) they have on there :

WDTN-DT (both SD+HD subchannels - Note: interestly enough, WDTN-SD is "first" subchannel, just as I've noticed here 2.2 via remapping/PSIP VCT has the lowest numbered PID's (0x0030 PMT, 2.1 HD is at 0x0040)
WLWT-DT (HD + WeatherPlus)
WHIO-DT (HD + 7 weather now)
WCPO-DT (HD, no Weather)
WKRC-DT (HD and CinCW)
WRGT-DT (HD can't remember if they have the MyTV subchannel)
WXIX-DT (HD and the old "tube" slate)
WSTR-DT (HD)
WKEF-DT (HD)
WCET-DT (CET HD and CET world)

I might have missed one or two they had on there, but I did notice WCET-DT was the only PBS .... Would be nice if they'd put the rest of the PBS's, or unless I missed them CW Dayton and WKOI on there as well. Just a guess, but I'm guessing they may not have all the necessary equipment to do that yet, and also would assume they may currently be limited to putting the broadcast signals on their system on VHF ....

Given the SD multicast subchannels are on there(except for WCPO's weather), and the Dayton channels, including WDTN, doesn't seem likely they are getting feeds from those from TWC or D*'s Cincy MPEG4 locals ....

#2). It looks like all their TV's are all LG+Zenith LCD HDTV's ... 26" 16x9 HDTV's in all or most of the rooms it looks like, the largest one I saw was a 42" in a waiting room ... Looks like most of the sets in the patient rooms are using their internal ATSC (or QAM) "tuners" for the broadcast signals, but I noticed a couple of the larger LG displays in waiting rooms were connected to a "control box" labeled LST-4100 ....

They do have all the sets I saw in the place "set" to allways display 16x9 (well except for a couple I changed via the display's "menu" setup option - the "AR formatting modes" of these displays aren't selectable by patients remotes) , such that proper AR results from the Broadcast "HD" channels, and "stretched" SD results from everything else .... I really don't see how folks can stand to watch the latter, but note It may just be that this "display mode" is the default one for all these sets and noone took the time to adjust them to add pillarbars for 4x3 video signals ... Really would be nice if everyone was sending AFD info+the sets supported it though ... So far, in the waiting rooms they've all been tuned to cable channels and displaying ugly stretched SD from channels such as "TBS" or "TVland" or "NG channel", except for one set in one waiting room which was displaying an ugly "stretched" version of WLWT-DT's weatherplus ....

Other than that :

Nevertheless, I thought it was pretty cool the way they've made the "transistion" to DTV/HDTV for their new facilitiy so far for the broadcast signals .... The TV at their old facility was apparently SD cable from TW ....

kyaj2

02-17-08, 06:53 PM

Moved my Terk HDTVi to a higher spot inside. Now getting WCPO where I wasn't before. Now WXIX isn't coming through. (Actually, WXIX almost seems to have gotten weaker over the last few days...is it just me?)

Had WPTO & WPTD. Last night, lost WPTO. After most recent antenna move, now have lost both of them.

At this point, I think I have all the Cincinnati stations (save WXIX), but have lost my Dayton stations (of which I had been getting 2, 7, 16, 22 a little, and 45). I am understanding now why people are getting the A/B switches!

jimp2244

02-18-08, 08:13 AM

Here is some updated information regarding WOTH 25 and WBQC 38 low power stations. Looks like it will still be a while before we see them in digital.

This is a good article, and also includes some "reader suggestions" from some fellow posters here:

http://news.nky.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20080217/ENT/802170397/1059/EDIT03

I have included the portion of the article that discusses WOTH and WBQC below:

Is your TV set ready?
A year from today, stations must go to all-digital
BY JOHN KIESEWETTER
The Cincinnati Enquirer

[...]
Despite all the publicity, the converter box won't solve every problem. Here's another thing you need to know: Not all stations are going digital in a year.

More than 80 percent of the nation's TV stations - the 7,300 low-power stations, including Channels 25, 38 and Trinity Broadcasting's Channel 36 here - were not ordered by the government to go digital. Only "full power" stations must switch.

Elliott Block, general manager of low-power Channels 25 and 38, fears that people will buy digital converter boxes that block his analog channels. Only four of 37 converter models authorized by the government can "pass through" analog signals to TVs. The Community Broadcasters Association, which represents low-power stations, has been lobbying the government for converter boxes with both digital and analog tuners.

"This is going to hurt me," Block says. He's considering buying a digital transmitter next year.

Here's what you need to know if you buy a digital converter box and want to watch Channels 25, 36 or 38: Just turn off the converter. The low-power stations will be the only channels you'll see on an analog set a year from now.

Molony says she reluctantly will get a converter box, instead of replacing her 20-year-old GE TV.

"I don't have a lot of money to spend," says Molony, whose husband is retired. "I just don't like the idea of being forced by the government to do this."

[...]

pjpjpjpj

02-18-08, 01:11 PM

A couple of updates and questions from my weekend (if anyone cares):

Friday night was a clear, cold night. I moved my "DB4 Clone without reflector" DIY antenna upstairs to my front bedroom (window faces SSW), connected up the 100' RG6 coax (as I had tried before without much luck), but added in a Radio Shack 1-to-4 amplifier that I bought last week (capping the 3 spare outlets). I actually coerced my wife to sit in the living room and watch while I moved the antenna around, and to give me some reports on signal reception. I am happy to report that I was able to get 54.1 for the first time (from Northern Kentucky all the way up to here in Evendale). I am confident that attic-mounting will work even better, as my bedroom windows have that "diamond-grid" pattern in them ("Tudor look") and those metal grids surely mess up reception a little! I was also able to bring in 2.1 (Dayton NBC), which was a pleasant surprise... although I seem to get Cincinnati NBC strongest of any station, so that's not such an exciting "add". Several other Dayton stations came in clearer in analog, but I still was not able to get Dayton Fox, CBS, or ABC, at all.

I then took the whole rig into my back bedroom which I believe has the clearest view north towards Dayton (8 or 9 degrees). Nothing (at least trying to get Fox/ABC/CBS digital). I opened the window and held the thing out. Still nothing. Held it up where the bowties were actually above the roof line... still nothing. Drat. I figure that a reflector might help some, or maybe joining up another DB4 to make it a DB8. Since I am getting Cincinnati pretty well, I am curious whether a directional (with reflector) DB8, facing due north, would still pick up some Cincinnati stations.

Back to my original set-up, with the DB4 leaning against the wall behind the TV cabinet... I had a dreadful time getting a clear signal Sunday afternoon during all the wind, both when the sky was clear and sunny and when it was overcast. Fox Cincinnati (WXIX) was unwatchable (Daytona 500), and the Golf tourney on CBS was not much better. The reception numbers were all over the board, up and down, as the wind blew. Is this common?

In light of the two above things, I am considering getting the lowest package of TW and just living on QAM (especially if TW-Cincy offers Dayton local DT stations along with Cincinnati in their package). Can someone talk me out of it?

Nitewatchman: Thanks for the info, but, yeah, my dilemma is wanting to have stuff "DVR'ed" without being there to switch an A-B switch, or turn a rotor. As you said, maybe in the future we'll have "smart" DVR software... but I'm not a robotics engineer so I'm not trying to hook that up now. :D

jimp2244

02-18-08, 02:25 PM

In light of the two above things, I am considering getting the lowest package of TW and just living on QAM (especially if TW-Cincy offers Dayton local DT stations along with Cincinnati in their package). Can someone talk me out of it?
I will try my best...

Time Warner will not have any Dayton stations, analog or digital, on their lineup in Evendale, except for WPTD 16 analog (ThinkTV/PBS).

I apologize if you've answered this already, but is an outdoor antenna completely out of the question? Having an antenna indoors can work, but broadcast TV wasn't designed for it; it was designed for outdoor antenna reception. Indoors there are all kinds of things that can affect your reception, and leaning on the wall behind the TV is honestly probably about the worst place you could place the antenna. Not only would signal penetration be difficult, but also there are many sources of interference (including your TV) in that area.

I would guess that with a good attic mount, you could get all of the Cincinnati stations with no issues, and some if not most of the Dayton stations. But again, attic is not the same as outside. Even going "through" the roof can knock the signals down enough to cause issues, as well as multipath (seen as ghosting on analog TV, and drop outs on digital TV) that may result from signals bouncing/reflecting off of things in the attic space.

You may also want to consider a different antenna. For cost of a month or two of cable you could purchase a good antenna that will serve you for many years. That's not to say that there is anything "wrong" with your current antenna.

Nitewatchman: Thanks for the info, but, yeah, my dilemma is wanting to have stuff "DVR'ed" without being there to switch an A-B switch, or turn a rotor. As you said, maybe in the future we'll have "smart" DVR software... but I'm not a robotics engineer so I'm not trying to hook that up now. :D
Don't mean to butt in here, but I record from both Dayton and Cincinnati OTA, so I am hopeful that my experiences may help you. I don't use SageTV (tried it for a brief period (as well as several other free options out there) but found BeyondTV to be well worth it's price, especially because it "just works," and in fact I couldn't ask for a much better product.

I have a roof top antenna (medium VHF/UHF combo) with rotor. I have presets for Cincinnati and Dayton stations (A for Cincinnati, B for Dayton). My antenna is always on A, unless I need to record/watch something from Dayton, where I will switch to B temporarily.

However, I have tested this and it does work:
I have two ATSC tuners in my BeyondTV set up. I set the roof top antenna to B (Dayton) and set up an indoor antenna directed at Cincinnati stations. BeyondTV will let you assign channels per tuner, so I have the Cincinnati stations on tuner 1 and the Dayton stations on tuner 2. BeyondTV knows which tuner to use to record my shows. In fact, it's even smart enough to know that, if I want to record "The Office" on WLWT-DT, but my Cincinnati tuner is being used for something else, it can record the show off of Dayton tuner on WDTN-DT.

In fact there is really only one small reason why I have not converted to that set up exclusively -- indoor antenna is not reliable. I trust my roof top antenna to record a problem free show 100% of the time. I don't trust the antenna sitting inside by a window that much. Once it gets a bit warmer I am considering putting another smaller antenna up with my current one that would be fixed on Cincinnati.

I hope this helps. I am not far from you (Sharonville) so if I can help you in some way I will certainly try.

pjpjpjpj

02-18-08, 04:27 PM

Time Warner will not have any Dayton stations, analog or digital, on their lineup in Evendale, except for WPTD 16 analog (ThinkTV/PBS).
Well, that eliminates that option right there. Thanks!
I apologize if you've answered this already, but is an outdoor antenna completely out of the question?
Yeah, it pretty much is.
Having an antenna indoors can work, but broadcast TV wasn't designed for it; it was designed for outdoor antenna reception. Indoors there are all kinds of things that can affect your reception, and leaning on the wall behind the TV is honestly probably about the worst place you could place the antenna. Not only would signal penetration be difficult, but also there are many sources of interference (including your TV) in that area.
I know, I know… (sigh)… I guess I was just hopeful that, getting nearly all the Cincinnati locals clearly with the thing sitting behind my TV cabinet on the first floor, that I would be able to put an omnidirectional antenna up in the attic and get Cincinnati and Dayton just by the luck of good house location (on a hill, reasonable distance from both). If not… well, at some point I’m going to find a spending limit on what my wife is willing to let me do in order to try to get Dayton as well as Cincinnati. ;)
I would guess that with a good attic mount, you could get all of the Cincinnati stations with no issues, and some if not most of the Dayton stations.
I would have thought so too, but holding my antenna out the window, above the roof line, facing north, on a cold, clear night, I still got nothing from Dayton. With what little antenna knowledge I have, that was frankly pretty disheartening. My only hope is that putting it out there gave me such strong bi-directional reception that the Cincinnati stations were interfering with the Dayton stations… but I’m not really counting on that being the case.
You may also want to consider a different antenna. For cost of a month or two of cable you could purchase a good antenna that will serve you for many years. That's not to say that there is anything "wrong" with your current antenna.
Beyond my wife comment above, that’s not impossible… but I figure she’d balk at me spending money on an antenna when the one I built is working pretty darn well, at least for Cincinnati stations (and not even with a reflector). She’s just excited at all the “hidden” PBS stations for kids entertainment.
Don't mean to butt in here, but I record from both Dayton and Cincinnati OTA, so I am hopeful that my experiences may help you. I don't use SageTV (tried it for a brief period (as well as several other free options out there) but found BeyondTV to be well worth it's price, especially because it "just works," and in fact I couldn't ask for a much better product.
{…}
However, I have tested this and it does work:
I have two ATSC tuners in my BeyondTV set up. I set the roof top antenna to B (Dayton) and set up an indoor antenna directed at Cincinnati stations. BeyondTV will let you assign channels per tuner, so I have the Cincinnati stations on tuner 1 and the Dayton stations on tuner 2. BeyondTV knows which tuner to use to record my shows. In fact, it's even smart enough to know that, if I want to record "The Office" on WLWT-DT, but my Cincinnati tuner is being used for something else, it can record the show off of Dayton tuner on WDTN-DT.

In fact there is really only one small reason why I have not converted to that set up exclusively -- indoor antenna is not reliable. I trust my roof top antenna to record a problem free show 100% of the time. I don't trust the antenna sitting inside by a window that much. Once it gets a bit warmer I am considering putting another smaller antenna up with my current one that would be fixed on Cincinnati.

I hope this helps. I am not far from you (Sharonville) so if I can help you in some way I will certainly try.
That’s all a great help – thanks. I am not adverse to using BTV rather than Sage… except that I am planning on getting the SageTV HD extenders when they come in stock, and I don’t know if they are compatible with BTV software. If so, I’d try the BTV software instead. I don’t remember if I posted this here or on another forum, but what I would ideally like to do (if I can get an attic-mounted antenna to receive Dayton clearly, even without getting Cincinnati) would be to run one antenna to Tuner 0 (in my HD Homerun) for Cincy and another antenna to Tuner 1 for Dayton, as long as I could program them the way that you describe. As long as BTV is compatible with the HD extender, it sounds like I could.

Now I just have to play with my antennas to get Dayton to come in!

jimp2244

02-19-08, 07:05 AM

As long as BTV is compatible with the HD extender, it sounds like I could.

What is the "HD extender?"

If it is what I think it is, BeyondTV has a program called BeyondTV Link that is basically a client software that you can install on other computers, which then allows them to watch TV recorded from your main system. Unfortunately it does cost extra.

Here is a link: http://www.snapstream.com/products/beyondtvlink/

pjpjpjpj

02-19-08, 08:00 AM

What is the "HD extender?"

"Extenders" are units that are located at your TVs (a "set-top box") which connect to your network (wirelessly or CAT5) and stream your HTPC to your TV. In the past, they have all been SD (XBox 360 even can work as an "extender"), but this past December, Sage came out with an HD version. It quickly sold out, and they are expecting the second shipment later this month. There's apparently quite a waiting line. The extender comes with a remote control which controls your "DVR software" through the extender (even though it inherently seems as though there should be some delay with this, apparently it works as seamlessly as a Tivo).

I will be using my PC as a "DVR" and have no intention of watching TV on it. I have an old PC sitting in the basement that I will use, and its specs are just barely enough to watch TV at all (not much of a video card). But with the HD Homerun and an extender, all of your encoding is done within these gadgets, and the load is taken off the PC, so that the PC simply has to run the software and store the recordings.

Basically, I have had a Tivo for years with my DirecTV, and we recently decided to go OTA, but my wife said "we can do it as soon as you figure out a way that we can have DVR functionality and an onscreen guide without any monthly fees whatsoever". From all the research I have done, it appears that HTPC is about the only option.

Bill R (# 2)

02-19-08, 12:58 PM

Basically, I have had a Tivo for years with my DirecTV, and we recently decided to go OTA, but my wife said "we can do it as soon as you figure out a way that we can have DVR functionality and an onscreen guide without any monthly fees whatsoever". From all the research I have done, it appears that HTPC is about the only option.

The summer, Echostar is coming out with the model TR-50. It is an OTA (ATSC) HD DVR with an extended (7 day) guide. They have not announced much about it yet (no pricing or hard drive size) but from the initial information it looks to have great market potential.

Echostar is "branching out" from the satellite business. They also are coming out with a digital converter box (TR-40 priced at $39.99 and eligible for the government coupon) and they own Sling Media (who make the Sling box for remote viewing of HD and SD programs).

pjpjpjpj

02-20-08, 08:47 AM

The summer, Echostar is coming out with the model TR-50. It is an OTA (ATSC) HD DVR with an extended (7 day) guide. They have not announced much about it yet (no pricing or hard drive size) but from the initial information it looks to have great market potential.

Echostar is "branching out" from the satellite business. They also are coming out with a digital converter box (TR-40 priced at $39.99 and eligible for the government coupon) and they own Sling Media (who make the Sling box for remote viewing of HD and SD programs).

Yeah, I should have said "only option right now" - I'm not willing to wait until July (assuming it actually comes out then... you know release dates never push back ;) ) and I also have a fear that it could be a bit pricey (though one rumor said $250-$300-ish).

I also fear that they will get a bunch of people to buy them, then after a year or so decide that you have to pay a monthly fee for "on-screen guide fees" or something. :rolleyes:

plughplover

02-20-08, 03:38 PM

pjpjpjpj

02-20-08, 04:05 PM

pjpjpjpj - wasn't clear from your posts, but to be sure - the amp should be by / at the antenna BEFORE that 100' RG-6, not at the TV set end. And do you really need 100' of coax? That will introduce a fair amount of loss at UHF frequencies (which is why the amp needs to be at the antenna end).

Nice thing about Dayton DTV is it is all UHF; so using TW cable (QAM) for Cincy DTV and a dedicated UHF-only antenna (put the reflector back on your DB4) for Dayton works quite nicely for me (particularly considering the hill I have between me and Cincy).
I did have the amp at the antenna-end of the run. As for the coax length, I wouldn’t need 100’, but that’s the only length that I had handy that was long enough to do a test, and I figured it would be a “worst case” (if I got channels with it, I should get them better with a shorter cable). I also have to think that, if there was even the slightest chance of me getting a Dayton digital station, that I would have at least gotten a quick blip or two of reception that night (with weather conditions being near-perfect and me holding the antenna outdoors, rather than in the attic where it will eventually live). But since I got absolutely nothing, I have to think that a shorter coax run and the antenna in the attic probably won’t help me much. Perhaps the reflector will do it. But – okay, don’t laugh – when I was doing the test and had the antenna in the bedroom, our ironing board was sitting nearby, and I thought, “hey, that thing has a big flat metal plate under the padding”, so I grabbed it and held it up, about 4 inches behind the antenna, trying to create a reflector and get *something*. No dice there, either (though admittedly quite “rigged”).

As I have mentioned before, I intend on doing the HTPC thing and using the two-tuner HDHomerun unit. This unit has two coax tuner inputs and a CAT5 out that connects to your home network router. My intention – someone correct me if this is not right – is that I would locate the HDHomerun in the attic right by the antenna. That way, the coax can be very short (probably a three-foot piece), the signals will get tuned/converted right there, and from there will be passed to the network/PC through the CAT5, where losses are no longer an issue. This is correct thinking (and would be the most ideal set-up), right?

plughplover

02-20-08, 04:51 PM

jimp2244

02-21-08, 07:26 AM

You still may want to give another antenna a try. Get one from a place that you can return it if it doesn't improve things for you. It could be that that's all you need.

Also, while we've got the analogs around it's often helpful to use them. What kind of performance do you get on WRGT (FOX 45) and WKEF (ABC 22) analog channels? Is there fuzz, ghosts, dots/lines, etc.? If you can use these analog channels to find a good "hot spot" for your antenna, and then try to scan for the digitals, you may have better luck. But I'd be really interested in hearing how the analog channels look for you.

jimp2244

02-21-08, 07:33 AM

I'm thinking of getting an indoor antenna. I'm assuming that an amplified antenna would be overkill for the Deer Park/Dillonvale area, is that right?Probably, especially if you want WCPO-DT. I personally use a $25 Radio Shack 15-1868 unamplified antenna, which works fine for getting the Big 4 stations (in DC, they're all UHF, currently).I'm not sure how having an amplifier or not affects WCPO-DT more than the other stations...

WCPO-DT will require a VHF antenna (as will WKRC-DT next year) such as rabbit ears. The other digital stations require a UHF antenna such as a loop or bowtie, or something in the "silver sensor" style.

Amp is probably overkill for where you are, but it may also turn out that it helps you get a few Dayton stations. You do have to be careful that you don't amplify the strong Cincinnati stations too much or it will cause problems with reception of them, but you won't really know for sure until you try.

A $4 bowtie from Radio Shack is probably enough to get all of the Cincinnati digitals except most likely WCPO-DT.

terryfoster

02-21-08, 08:44 AM

WCPO-DT will require a VHF antenna (as will WKRC-DT next year) such as rabbit ears. The other digital stations require a UHF antenna such as a loop or bowtie, or something in the "silver sensor" style.

Amp is probably overkill for where you are, but it may also turn out that it helps you get a few Dayton stations. You do have to be careful that you don't amplify the strong Cincinnati stations too much or it will cause problems with reception of them, but you won't really know for sure until you try.

A $4 bowtie from Radio Shack is probably enough to get all of the Cincinnati digitals except most likely WCPO-DT.

Yeah, I should have mentioned I was looking for a UHF/VHF antenna. Thanks for confirming my belief that an amplified antenna may decrease my chances of reliably receiving Cincinnati stations.

pjpjpjpj

02-21-08, 12:16 PM

Temperature extremes in the attic might be hard on the HDhomerun, but in principle, yes.

Have you run your location through tvfool.com? I am surprised you don't get anything from Dayton - are you down in the Mill Creek valley? You will need _some_ elevation for Dayton - tvfool will give you that kind of info in the report...

I thought about the attic temp thing - I will probably end up putting it in a second-floor closet, just below the antenna, so it is "out of the elements". It's also quite dusty/dirty in the attic, and that's not good for electronics either (though at least it has no moving pieces). :cool:

I checked TVfool - my results are attached. I don't really know why I am getting no digital from Dayton other than that brief capture of WDTN (NBC), at 50 (2.1) - especially when I held the antenna outside above the roof - and why, if I get that one, others are not coming in. I'm on a hill, not in a valley. Frankly, I figure the aluminum-faced insulation on the north wall in my house is a huge multi-path-maker.... but that shouldn't have stopped me when I held the thing out the window. :confused:

jimp2244

02-21-08, 01:36 PM

Frankly, I figure the aluminum-faced insulation on the north wall in my house is a huge multi-path-maker.... but that shouldn't have stopped me when I held the thing out the window. :confused:
Even though multipath issues can be frequency specific, taking a look at analog 45 and analog 22 (possibly analog 26 as well) may give some indication as to what your issues are. Ghosting would indicate multipath conditions are present. A fuzzy picture would indicate a weak signal. Lines/dots would indicate some sort of interference.

When you "hold up" or adjust an antenna for digital stations you often are doing it "blindly" or "in the dark," with no feedback whatsoever until you get a signal lock. If you can adjust for the best result with the analog channels first, you can use that as a starting point with the digitals.

mikemikeb

02-21-08, 11:49 PM

I'm not sure how having an amplifier or not affects WCPO-DT more than the other stations...
...

Amp is probably overkill for where you are, but it may also turn out that it helps you get a few Dayton stations.
...

A $4 bowtie from Radio Shack is probably enough to get all of the Cincinnati digitals except most likely WCPO-DT.VHF, even VHF-High, is more susceptible than UHF to impulse noise. That's why during thunderstorms, VHF-High signals are more susceptible to dropouts than UHF signals. The kind of noise created by the amplifier affects total noise that the ATSC decoder has to work through, and it may be too much to allow a lock.

At such distance, it's unlikely that he'll get any Dayton stations with an indoor antenna, even an amped one.

In addition, those "$4 Radio Shack antenna" types have short, low-quality RG-59 fixed into the antenna itself. The 15-1868 I suggested, though $25, has a standard 75-ohm connector, in which one can connect any desired length of RG-6 (the good stuff). In addition, there's a fine-tuning knob that can dial in reception. Plus, it's much prettier. You could say that it's as much of a work of sculpture as it is an antenna.

jimp2244

02-22-08, 07:40 AM

At such distance, it's unlikely that he'll get any Dayton stations with an indoor antenna, even an amped one.I'm only a few miles north and can get all the Dayton stations except WBDT-DT with an unamplified indoor antenna. I know people who live 10-12 miles further south that get several Dayton channels with indoor antenna as well. While I'd never count on an indoor antenna, there is no reason to say it won't work.

In addition, those "$4 Radio Shack antenna" types have short, low-quality RG-59 fixed into the antenna itself. The 15-1868 I suggested, though $25, has a standard 75-ohm connector, in which one can connect any desired length of RG-6 (the good stuff). In addition, there's a fine-tuning knob that can dial in reception. Plus, it's much prettier. You could say that it's as much of a work of sculpture as it is an antenna.No. The $4 bow tie has 300 Ohm twin lead built in, not RG-59.

In fact, the 15-1868 comes with RG-59 (although you can replace it with your own RG-6). The 15-1868 UHF portion is just a loop with a plastic case built around it. If prettiness is the goal over better reception, then maybe it is a better choice.

pjpjpjpj

02-22-08, 11:24 AM

Even though multipath issues can be frequency specific, taking a look at analog 45 and analog 22 (possibly analog 26 as well) may give some indication as to what your issues are. Ghosting would indicate multipath conditions are present. A fuzzy picture would indicate a weak signal. Lines/dots would indicate some sort of interference.

When you "hold up" or adjust an antenna for digital stations you often are doing it "blindly" or "in the dark," with no feedback whatsoever until you get a signal lock. If you can adjust for the best result with the analog channels first, you can use that as a starting point with the digitals.

Last night, during the snowfall, I tried the stations with my antenna back on the first floor next to the TV cabinet. I dunno, thought maybe the snow would reflect some waves or something crazy like that. :cool: Lo and behold, I got 2.1 (Dayton NBC) locked, which I had never gotten before except when I did the "upstairs/amplified" test. Reception level was in the 40s, but was not varying at all and never once dropped out or messed up.

I did not get any other Dayton digital stations, but I did look at analog. From what I recall, they were very snowy, but I do not recall ghosting or lines. I'll check again this weekend.

I've been reading on Lumenlab about "corner reflector" antennas - I wonder how much better I would do with one of those pointed at Dayton. I suppose I should add a "real" reflector to my DB4 first...

jimp2244

02-22-08, 11:41 AM

I dunno, thought maybe the snow would reflect some waves or something crazy like that. :cool: Lo and behold, I got 2.1 (Dayton NBC) locked, which I had never gotten before except when I did the "upstairs/amplified" test. Reception level was in the 40s, but was not varying at all and never once dropped out or messed up.You will notice "fringe" channels coming in and going out depending on conditions. Oftentimes I check this web site:

http://www.mountainlake.k12.mn.us/ham/aprs/path.cgi?map=na

which is a map showing VHF propagation (not UHF) but oftentimes it is a good indicator of what conditions are like. I've not had much experience/success with "DX" but I have been able to receive most of the Indianapolis analog stations in a somewhat watchable (but very fuzzy and sometimes going in and out) state for a period of time when conditions are right. Back some pages in this thread you might see my screen pictures showing WTHR Indianapolis and some others.

I did not get any other Dayton digital stations, but I did look at analog. From what I recall, they were very snowy, but I do not recall ghosting or lines. I'll check again this weekend.Snow indicates weak signal. Antenna placement will make a difference, so if you can test this in the attic it would be helpful. When you're looking at the analogs, channels 22 and 45, and also 26 are probably most important, as they're in the UHF band where all of the Dayton digitals are (also the band your antenna is designed to receive). Channels 2 and 7 analog won't be very helpful in this diagnosis.

I've been reading on Lumenlab about "corner reflector" antennas - I wonder how much better I would do with one of those pointed at Dayton. I suppose I should add a "real" reflector to my DB4 first...A yagi/corner reflector may be a good idea to try as well. Here is a link to a 91XG, which is a good example to look at. It's a larger, high performance antenna and a little expensive at $80 but if you think of cable bills you'd save it quickly proves its value. I think Nitewatchman has this antenna? If you can find a place that will let you return it if you don't get the results you want then you could try it (or something similar) and see how it works for you.

Since the antenna you use now is home made it's hard to compare it accurately...

Update: Keep in mind that the 91XG as well as your home made antenna are UHF only antennas, and their performance on WCPO-DT 10 (and WKRC-DT 12 starting next February) will be very questionable. You may find that you have no issues, or you may need to add a small VHF antenna + VHF/UHF combiner to make sure you receive them reliably.

pjpjpjpj

02-22-08, 12:38 PM

Snow indicates weak signal. Antenna placement will make a difference, so if you can test this in the attic it would be helpful.
Probably not until we have another day with temps in the 50s or 60s. Gotta get rid of the real snow before I try to get rid of the electronic kind. ;)

Keep in mind that the 91XG as well as your home made antenna are UHF only antennas, and their performance on WCPO-DT 10 (and WKRC-DT 12 starting next February) will be very questionable. You may find that you have no issues, or you may need to add a small VHF antenna + VHF/UHF combiner to make sure you receive them reliably.

While I know this is the case, my homemade DB4 picks up high-VHF (9 and 12 analog) very well. What's the explanation for that? Just very strong reception?

jimp2244

02-22-08, 01:07 PM

While I know this is the case, my homemade DB4 picks up high-VHF (9 and 12 analog) very well. What's the explanation for that? Just very strong reception?Yes, very strong signals in the area. Being fairly close to the towers, it doesn't take much to receive those stations. A wire with some tin foil on it or a coat hanger is probably enough in a lot of cases.

Nitewatchman

02-22-08, 11:40 PM

I'm on a hill, not in a valley.

There are hills and there are HILLS, and there is even mostly "flat" ground between Dayton+Cincinnati that may be higher than your "hill" .... For instance I'm actually in a small steep valley here, BUT, my elevation is also about the same as the "top" of Price Hill (about 800 Ft ASL - above sea level), which is about as high as anything in Cincinnati .... Yet, within several miles to my west, the terrain rises as much as about 300 Feet higher than my antennas ....

Looks to me like Your TVfool plot suggests it's likely some sort of terrain issue is attenuating Dayton signals quite a bit, --- the 1Edge+2edge diffraction info for the Dayton stations indicates this - Without terrain obstruction issues involved, given the transmit antenna heights/ERP involved you'd probably have to be something over 50 miles+ away from them to have the predicted Dayton UHF signals be as weak as they are predicted to be ...

some of the Dayton stations "scroll off the bottom" of the Tvfool plot because you chose to post the analog+digital plot(only so many stations will "fit" on the plots the way it's designed, you'll see more digital stations if you do the digital only plot, more analog stations if you do the analog only plot/etc),

Nevertheless, the dayton Stations are predicted to be somewhat weak(Note that some nice details on what the various info on the plots "mean" is available at tvfool site). While Those predicted signal levels wouldn't usually be a problem for reception with a antenna mounted outdoors at around rooftop levels with a fair amount of gain+directivity, they're *predicted* to be weak enough that it is difficult to say whether or not achieving reliable reception of the Dayton stations from indoors, even with the best antenna setup is going to be a possibility.

But, You'll just have to try it to see. Placing receive antenna indoors, generally, attenuates signals GREATLY, usually more than the antenna has "gain". But -- If you could get a high gain antenna such as XG91 or CM4228 or similar near a window facing North, it might improve your chances, and even an amp (mostly because it will likely have a Noise figure several db lower than the front end of your receiver) may be a good idea for Dayton reception(as long as the receive antenna used has a decent F/B (front/back) ratio) .. Be careful with the "near the window" thing though, as some types of insulated window glass(like foil backed insulation you mentioned) can be a multipath problem, it's just that generally "plain ordinary window glass" attenuates signals less than just about anything else used in the "walls" of homes ...

I think Nitewatchman has this antenna?

Yes.

plughplover

02-23-08, 11:10 AM

pjpjpjpj - I was a bit puzzled by two aspects of your tvfool results. As Nitewatchman points out, it indicates terrain issues (1edge/2edge refraction and quite low signal levels), but it also indicates you'd only need ~50 foot elevation to get to line-of-sight for most of the Dayton stations.

I'm a few miles NW of you, on a hill with tvfool-LOS to Dayton stations and get ALL of them (including WBDT) with just a 'Silver Sensor' (about 6dBd gain) in my attic. I would think that a good quality UHF antenna with some directivity / gain should be able to pull them in at your location. At this point I'd start being suspicious of your 'DB4 clone with no reflector'.

You might find this interesting reading
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

One other comment about attic mounting - bigger isn't always better. For an antenna to deliver gain / directivity it needs a free field in it's vicinity (defined in terms of wavelengths - one wavelength at channel 14 is about 2 feet). It's tough to describe this non-technically, but the 'stuff' in an attic will affect the impedance match between free space and the antenna, and the interaction between the elements of an antenna. You are probably better off with a smaller / simpler antenna that you can locate in an open space in the attic than something big / complex that ends up with portions near the floor or the roof or shoe-horned between roof supports.

In my attic this rules out the 4-high bow-ties (too tall) and many corner reflector yagi designs (too long) - though I have considered the CM-4220 (IMO better than DB2) or a plain corner reflector. The benefits to be gained from attic mounting are mainly some elevation (not trying to 'see through' the neighbor's house) and elimination of wall sheilding (aluminum siding, wall insulation with metallic layer, window screens, etc) - things that affect 'indoor' antennas. But if you need *real* gain, then higher elevation / larger boom / roof or tower mounted is the way to go.

BTW, one other 'unknown' variable in your case - how sensitive is the OTA section of the HDhomerun? To draw a comparison - whereas my antenna feed gets everything solid from Dayton (including WBDT) on my TV set, things become very iffy when I connect it to an older PC HDTV card. The card just doesn't have the front-end sensitivity of the TV set. If I really wanted _IT_ to work, I'd probably try the CM-4220 and a low noise figure amp at the antenna.

EDIT: About 10 years ago, I bought a TV and a roof antenna for my (now passed) mom, who lived in Norwood. It was Radio Shack's lowest V/UHF model (VU-75XR?) and I used an amp at the antenna, with it oriented towards Dayton. (Side note - amp had an FM trap, which was needed). This setup gave her all the Cincy (48 had some ghosting) and Dayton analog stations. Out of curiosity, I just ran her address through tvfool (attached). She was even further south than you, but according to the results apparently at a higher elevation (she had LOS for most and about 15dBm stronger signals).

You must be in the shadow of some terrain feature to the north of you, if these results are any indication...

tbenson81

02-23-08, 04:08 PM

What a joke..

This station is just as bad with their basketball coverage as they are with their college football! 45 seconds left in the UK vs ARK game and we get switched to see the tip of St Johns vs Duke?

Seriously - who is running the show in this town. This is pathetic.

I feel bad for all you UK fans out there who had to miss the end of their game

Tony

JunkyardDogg

02-23-08, 08:42 PM

What a joke..

I can never understand this either. The tip-off is not as important as the end of a close game, unlike the Duke game!

Nitewatchman

02-23-08, 09:25 PM

For an antenna to deliver gain / directivity it needs a free field in it's vicinity (defined in terms of wavelengths - one wavelength at channel 14 is about 2 feet)....

... It's tough to describe this non-technically, but the 'stuff' in an attic will affect the impedance match between free space and the antenna, and the interaction between the elements of an antenna...

That's a very good description, another "simpler" one is that anything near the antenna(even you while you are adjusting it) becomes essentially "connected" to the antenna + effects the antenna's performance.

As a good "rule of thumb", for that reason for best results, whenever possible it's usually a good idea to keep antenna about 10 wavelengths away from nearby objects (in direction its aimed - you have a little more leeway behind, to the sides and above/below antenna - for instance, mounting antenna at least 4 feet above roof is a good idea), for the lowest frequency you'll be using it for .....

This sort of thing is likely one of the reasons why folks find positioning antenna in the attic to find the "best spot" for reception can be so "finicky" .... It may also explain in some cases, to some extent why some folks seem to have more issues receiving VHF stations from indoors, given the longer wavelengths involved ...

*HOWEVER*, as you point out, it is not allways possible to achieve this, but it is also the case that in cases such as these, the additional gain or directivity or gain of a larger antenna may be necessary or desired -- Whether or not the performance of such an antenna will be deleteriously effected to enough of a degree on any particular frequency regarding reception of any particular station to be "worse than" a smaller/simpler antenna with less gain by being too "near" nearby objects is pretty much impossible to predict for any given case.

I do know There are folks who have posted here in N KY (one of whom has since moved to detroit ;) who have had good results receiving Dayton stations with hi-gain "large" antennas in their attic, but if one does have a shot at being "lucky" with it, it certainly seems to generally require a lot of "messing around" with antenna positioning in attic/etc. ...

You are probably better off with a smaller / simpler antenna that you can locate in an open space in the attic than something big / complex that ends up with portions near the floor or the roof or shoe-horned between roof supports.

Except that, regarding Dayton reception for him, smaller/simpler antenna means less gain/directivity in a case when more gain/directivity is probably going to be needed (for a chance of Dayton reception with an indoor antenna), according to his tvfool plot and his tests so far with his current antenna ....

But if you need *real* gain, then higher elevation / larger boom / roof or tower mounted is the way to go.

Definitely, although I suspect he can likely get by with a lot "less" antenna if he can get the antenna above the roof rather than below it ....

pjpjpjpj - I was a bit puzzled by two aspects of your tvfool results. As Nitewatchman points out, it indicates terrain issues (1edge/2edge refraction and quite low signal levels), but it also indicates you'd only need ~50 foot elevation to get to line-of-sight for most of the Dayton stations.

I noticed that too, it seems perhaps a bit unusual, as I was "expecting" to see something more similar for him to the results for your Mom's house. But then again the modeling Tvfool uses takes some quite complex issues into account. But, whether or not in this specific case it's accuracy is "very good" is difficult to say.

Also difficult to say, since we don't know too much about the performance characteristics of his antenna, but pjpjpjpj's results so far(including his report regarding Dayton analog reception) *seem* to at this point coincide fairly well with what it says ... In any case, if you're interested TVfool's "creator", AVSforum member Andy.S.Lee has went into some detail in some of his posts concerning tvfool's modeling and the longely-rice modeling it's based on in the TVfool thread, or his google 3d maps thread in hardware area.

would think that a good quality UHF antenna with some directivity / gain should be able to pull them in at your location.

Mounted outdoors, I'd agree. I wouldn't want to try to predict with any degree of certianty what his chances are for Dayton reception with indoor antenna of any sort at this point.

Keep in mind, (more or less) per FCC and other tests of many different models of DTV receivers, minimum signal level required at receiver input for "just at threshold" DTV reception is going to be("rule of thumb", but a pretty "close" rule of thumb) about -84dBm, a few dB less than that with a LNA .... while I believe in most cases one can add a fairly "conservative" 10db or so to TV fool predictions (again there's some very detailed info on this in TVfool thread in hardware area) .... How this seems to "work out" is that when one in a "rule of thumb" sense accounts for attenuation of putting the antenna indoors, it generally means about -90dbm prediction on TVfool plot is probably pretty close to the "cut off point" for it being very likely whether or not reliable reception will be achievable with any sort of indoor antenna ....

You must be in the shadow of some terrain feature to the north of you, if these results are any indication...

I would really need his "exact" address or lat/long coordinates for the most accurate results, but attached graphic of a elevation plot as described below should hopefully be "something somewhat close" ...

I used the reverse bearing from the bearing to WHIO, and distance to WHIO shown in his TVfool plot to find something that should be near his receive location -- So, attached graphic shows a elevation profile from (mile 0) a point in Evandale that is about 1/4 mile or so South of 126 and 1/4 mile West of Plainfield Road (and yes, it is on a hill at about 819ft ASL) to WHIO tower(Mile 34.60 at right) with the use of topo software ...

I've drawn in approxmiate height of Dayton DTV transmitting antenna(actually, it may be a little lower than this as I was a bit "sloppy" with my "measuring" and looking up the TX antenna height) with the red vertical line at right, I've also drawn in a "red line"("horizontal top line") connecting the receive+transmit antennas *if* it were the case the earth was flat, as of course it is not, and Note that this graph does *not* take into account curvature of earth, so I've "sort of" approximated the effects of curvature of earth with the lower red "horizontal" line(it's actually probably even a bit "worse" than this, but this does seem to correspond fairly well with the ~50ft for LOS info in TVfool plot) ....

So, anyway, As you can see, there are certianly terrain issues of interest here which seem likely to correspond with the TVFool plot -- specifically, moving from left(receive location - 0 mile marker) to right, the first "easily evident" little "bump" is a spot about 1000 ft North of 126 that goes up to about 839 ft ASL(note : There is actually a little "bump" at the 0 mile marker(receive location) as well, but the red lines I added in there may not let you see it very well), and the second bump terrain shown above 900 Feet about 4 miles out is a spot on/near US 42 about 1/2 mile south of Dimmick Rd that is in the signal path and goes as high as 932FT ASL .. Note that this terrain profile makes things look "steeper" than they actually are because you are compressing 34.6 Miles into a few inches ....

plughplover

02-24-08, 01:50 AM

That's a pretty cool graphic. What software, tapping what database, did you use?

My comments on attic antennas, in a nutshell, are that if a well-placed modest antenna won't do the job, the odds of a larger crammed-in antenna working much better are poor. (Based upon the many experiences of a frustrated ham radio operator living in a condo. :( )

Nitewatchman

02-24-08, 11:37 AM

My comments on attic antennas, in a nutshell, are that if a well-placed modest antenna won't do the job, the odds of a larger crammed-in antenna working much better are poor.

While I don't necessarily disagree, nevertheless, I think it depends upon the signal levels involved, and That doesn't seem to be the experience of many on this forum who have reported good results using antennas such as CM4228 crammed into their attic, including in cases in comparisions to antennas such as silver sensor .... If you're not going to get the antenna outside, which is the "right" solution for situations like these(per the TVfool prediction+his results with Dayton so far), then if you're going to have any luck at all, it very well may involve something with more than 6db gain and a lot of futzing around finding a "place" where the antenna can be put that will work ....

Certianly No harm in trying something like a 2 bay bowtie or Silver sensor/similar small LPDA .... I'd keep the receipts, though ...

If we could "count on" his antenna working like a DB4/CM4221 though, at this point, given his reported results so far, I'd say he's probably going to have to get antenna outside in order to achieve reliable reception of Dayton stations, and "reliable" is something he's going to need for "DVR'ing" ....

(Based upon the many experiences of a frustrated ham radio operator living in a condo. :( )

._.. _ _ _ ._..

That's a pretty cool graphic. What software, tapping what database, did you use?

It's using older version(3.0) of Delorme's Topo USA, here's some info on later versions :

http://www.amazon.com/Delorme-Topo-USA-National-Maps/dp/B000EZMXYW

http://shop.delorme.com/OA_HTML/DELibeCCtpSctDspRte.jsp?section=10050&minisite=10020

I'm not sure which USGS dataset for the topo data it uses, all I could ever dig up about that is that it uses "USGS data" .... But, it seems pretty accurate in comparsions to USGS 7.5 Minute "printed" quads+SRTM data I've looked at.

To plot the locations of the Transmit antennas for stations in the area(and for the tx ant height info), I used data from FCC's CDBS/Transmitter database via TV query :

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html

(Note : be sure to choose "Detailed info+CDBS Links" for the most detail)

-----------------

There is also a way to do plots like this "for free" using DLG viewer + data from various USGS DEM (digital elevation model) datasets online, including using the SRTM(Shuttle Radar Topographic Mission) data which TVfool uses. I don't have DLG viewer installed currently, and am a little fuzzy on the "details" of how I set it up/etc, but I'd tried this a while back and did some comparisions using various DEM data about a year ago and it was pretty cool as well. Note that at one time, USGS had some quite detailed High resolution "non-SRTM" DEM data available for free download, and I had downloaded several quads for our area back in 1998 and had archived them, but the Hi-rez stuff doesn't seem to be available for free download, the last time I had checked ...

DLGviewer is here :

http://mcmcweb.er.usgs.gov/drc/dlgv32pro/

One source of SRTM data is here (this is what I've used) :

http://srtm.csi.cgiar.org/

USGS site can be difficult to navigate, and it seems some of the URL's I had saved from there on previous occasions are currently "dead", but here's one that might be somewhat useful :

http://www.usgs.gov/pubprod/data.html#software

After a google search, this URL I had saved on an earlier occasion seems as if it's still active, but if it is, the site seems to be down currently :

http://eros.usgs.gov/geodata/

plughplover

02-24-08, 03:46 PM

That is kinda fun... I went to
http://seamless.usgs.gov/website/seamless/viewer.htm
used my long+lat and that of whio-dt (-84.248,39.734)
and did a similar plot (wish it would label the x axis).

For interested folk...

First, get your long+lat here http://stevemorse.org/jcal/latlon.php
then open your browser full screen and go to
http://seamless.usgs.gov/website/seamless/viewer.htm
(it may take a little while to load / initialize - be patient)
hit the "XY" button on left, enter your long,lat (decimal degrees, comma seperated)
use the scale bar on the right side to zoom in, then
on the left under Query click "Elevation Profile Tool" button.

Click on the '+' marking your location, then
hit the "XY" button again, enter long,lat of the station, then
click on the '+' marking the station's location, then
(at this point some buttons etc appear on bottom of page)
set "sample/segment" to 200 and hit 'Generate Profile for two Points'

A few seconds later a window pops up with the elevation plot along the specified line.

That is really cool - thanks for the pointer Nitewatchman!

tullnd

02-24-08, 04:39 PM

I have suddenly lost all signal for WCPO-DT. I used to get 9-1 and 9-2 without any issues. I think this may have started on friday, 2/22 but am not sure. I picked up a new antenna yesterday and when rescanning was when I noticed it. I had an RCA indoor unamplified antenna(live in Clifton, I get great signal strength on almost all channels). I picked up a powered 10db RCA antenna just to address some occasional audio drops I was getting during inclement weather. I know an outdoor antenna is the real solution, but I'm in a small apartment building and that's just not an option.

Anyways...I can no longer get ANY signal strength for WCPO-DT. I switched back to my original antenna and tried again...nothing. I have moved the antennas around and put them near windows with no success.

Is anyone else having OTA issues with WCPO-DT?

blbrodbeck

02-24-08, 06:04 PM

terryfoster

02-24-08, 06:17 PM

This station is just as bad with their basketball coverage as they are with their college football! 45 seconds left in the UK vs ARK game and we get switched to see the tip of St Johns vs Duke?

Seriously - who is running the show in this town. This is pathetic.

I feel bad for all you UK fans out there who had to miss the end of their game

Since these two games appear to have been CBS productions it looks like a CBS error (not WKRC).

Nitewatchman

02-24-08, 07:38 PM

I had an RCA indoor unamplified antenna(live in Clifton ..... . I picked up a powered 10db RCA antenna just to address some occasional audio drops I was getting during inclement weather.

In regards to reception of Cincinnati stations, its safe to say Your problem is *NOT* signal strength, and you do *NOT* want an amplified antenna at your location!

You are **WAY*** too close to the Cincinnati stations to be using an amplfied antenna ...

When you use a amplifier, strong signals(in this case likely extremely strong signals) --- they don't have to be on the same channel/frequency WCPO broadcasts on, and they can easily overload the amp and front-end of your receiver and cause problems ....

With OTA DTV reception, when signal is below threshold(not necessarily because of signal strength), *BOTH* the audio and video streams go(on some receivers the video will "freeze" instead of disappearing, but it's possible you may notice a "short" dropout on the audio but not with the video), not just audio or video, it's not actually possible for one to go and not the other due to reception related issue .... Also, Your signal quality meter would bounce around/drop as well when signal goes below threshold, and Multipath (not "signal strength") issues are probably the #1 cause of that sort of thing, impulse and other various noise/interference issues (especially on VHF, and especially VHF-LO - we have none of the latter) are probably the #2 cause .....

Anyways...I can no longer get ANY signal strength for WCPO-DT. I switched back to my original antenna and tried again...nothing. I have moved the antennas around and put them near windows with no success.

The meter on your receiver is very likely *NOT* measuring or showing you signal strength(even if it is labeled that way right on screen). In fact, it is not "looking" at the actual OTA signal at all, instead, non-technically speaking, it's looking at how easy it is for the decoder to decode the digital data+is generally usually best throught of as a
signal quality meter ...

A very STRONG signal can be present, but issues such as interference (including IMD - intermodulation distortion created within your equipment by strong signals that are overloading amp or front end of receiver), or multipath uncorrectable by receiver can make the "signal readings" show "0" or bounce around like crazy when actually a VERY strong signal is present ...

Furthermore, when you rescanned with your new antenna, you likely "wiped out" the channels that were previously scanned in, and what that means is, your Receiver *has* to first acheive a lock on WCPO-DT on channel 10 (where it actually broadcasts) in order to decode the channel remapping info being sent by the station that "lets you see it" and what your signal quality meter "says about it" on channel 9.1 or 9.2, ... If you're receiver lets you do this (some apparently don't unfortunetly and only allow "auto scans") you'd want to tune manually or individually "scan" channel 10 (or 10.x/etc) to get a "reading" on the meter from WCPO-DT until such point you can adjust antenna such that you can achieve a signal lock and "scan it in" .....

I know an outdoor antenna is the real solution, but I'm in a small apartment building and that's just not an option.

For Dayton maybe, but whether it's outdoors or indoors you're probably going to want a relatively "simple" antenna without much directivity, since the Cincinnati stations are in all directions from you ... The only problem with that would be if multipath is too much of a problem(and Multipath is often more of a problem very close to the towers) .

You are probably going to have to get lucky in order to achieve reliable reception from all the Cincinnati area stations with just one "posistion" with any antenna, but in this case, a simple generally "non-directional" antenna(including probably one indoors) is actually an ideal choice ... That's just "how it is" when you have so many stations so close and in so many different directions, and the best solution is probably to use a unamplfied antenna like your "first" antenna (UHF loop or UHF folded dipole would be a good choice, you probably wouldn't even need the VHF "rabbit ears" for WCPO-DT, but it's difficult to say) ...

Another possible(probably better) solution is a "smartenna" which requires a receiver that has the smartenna interface and a actual "smartenna" ... This allows the receiver to "adjust" certian physical parameters of the antenna itself, automatically for best reception of any given station you "tune to" (it's not a rotor).... But, there aren't many receivers that support it yet, and there aren't many antennas that do either ....

If you were to try using a antenna with a good degree of directivity (including say, outdoors) -- While this is the sort of thing you'd want to "combat" multipath (or issues involving AGC circuit in your receiver not keeping up with rapid signal fluctuations during "inclement" weather when the wind blows nearby trees around), unfortunetly it's possible you'd have to aim it "differently" for WCPO, WKRC and differently for WLWT/WCET, and differently for WSTR, and differently for WXIX, and differently for WCVN .... (it probably wouldn't turn out to be quite that bad, but you get the idea) ....

In fact, another potentially good solution would be to aim an outdoor, directional antenna at Dayton, and watch the Dayton stations instead of Cincinnati ones ....

The only other "good solution" for folks so close and "in between" the towers, other than to "get cable" would be for all the stations in the market to co-locate all their stations at the same transmit location .... While that's really a good idea for many, many reasons in regards to OTA reception issues for those "close to the towers", it's safe to say it's not likely to happen in markets where its not already the case (Dayton is somewhat "close" to that already, they all transmit from the same "antenna farm" except for a couple of Lp's and WKOI which is "technically" considered a Dayton market station, oddly enough) but markets like L.A. are "pretty much" already there, as all the stations there broadcast off the same mountain top .....

tullnd

02-25-08, 01:34 AM

Thanks for the info. My TV(an LG lcd) does have an option to manually scan channels and I can also have it just scan DTV as well. I did a rescan several times as well as trying to add it manually and had no luck. However, I'll try it again tomorrow just in case.

Previously, I haven't had to move the antenna at all. I mostly had issues with 48.1, 48.2 and 5.1 going out intermittently in the primetime hours mostly. I'd often have audio drops and occasional very very short video disruption. I work 2nd shift, so I mostly watch late at night or maybe the noon-day news and never have issues at those hours. I'll continue to try relocating the antenna though on a per channel basis and see if that helps at all.

jimp2244

02-25-08, 07:18 AM

I mostly had issues with 48.1, 48.2 and 5.1 going out intermittently
These channels broadcast from the same tower, located in Clifton. Basically you couldn't be any closer to them, and if you're amplifying them there is no doubt you've got overload.

jimp2244

02-25-08, 07:20 AM

Since these two games appear to have been CBS productions it looks like a CBS error (not WKRC).
Yes, I have seen in other threads that people in other cities were complaining as well. Completely CBS, not WKRC, and definitely not "this town."
This station is just as bad with their basketball coverage as they are with their college football! 45 seconds left in the UK vs ARK game and we get switched to see the tip of St Johns vs Duke?

Seriously - who is running the show in this town. This is pathetic.

pjpjpjpj

02-25-08, 01:13 PM

First of all, thanks again to all of you who answer every question and then some. You really help educate newbies like me. And it's nice to have a forum where everyone is "local".

I'm gonna kinda drop out around here for a bit because I think I have gotten to the point now where I just have to rig it up and try it. The HD Extenders are supposed to be back in stock in the next week or so, and once I get them, I'll hook everything up, cross my fingers, and let 'er rip. .... and then climb back up in the attic and fiddle and rearrange and tweak and move and.... :)

To answer a few questions from the many previous posts directed towards my dilemmas, I'm just south of the Glendale-Milford "hill", and just west of the cemetary on Plainfield. The hill I am on actually continues to rise to the south and SSW of my house, so I actually was worried at first about getting Cincinnati, more than Dayton (but Cincinnati is no problem).

Thinking about my location brings up another question.... I am very close to the Blue Ash airport. There wouldn't be any transmissions from there that would interfere with TV, would there? I also just learned that a cellphone company is supposed to be building a tower a couple-hundred yards away (cemetary property)... that wouldn't bother me, would it (other than, you know, causing me to grow a third eye or something)? :eek::D

I only have windows facing due east and due west. The entire north end of my attic is aluminum-faced insulation board. I do have a dormer that protrudes west from the front of my house, so I figure I will try the north-facing (Dayton) antenna up in the dormer (the sloped roof is just plywood or OSB), as that is really the only way to be in my attic, facing north, and have no AL-faced insulation in the LOS. We'll see how that goes.

Again, thanks for all the help, and I will report back when I get things running.

Nitewatchman

02-25-08, 08:18 PM

There wouldn't be any transmissions from there that would interfere with TV, would there? I also just learned that a cellphone company is supposed to be building a tower a couple-hundred yards away (cemetary property)... that wouldn't bother me, would it

Very, very unlikely, but it's somewhat possible a amp (as they're very broadband) could be overloaded by any nearby RF (i.e. "wireless") transmissions ....

I suppose the tower could be a potential multipath issue, but since you don't have to aim your antenna anywhere near it (given that if I understand correctly it will be to your east), it shouldn't be a problem ....

Nitewatchman

02-25-08, 09:33 PM

The hill I am on actually continues to rise to the south and SSW of my house, so I actually was worried at first about getting Cincinnati, more than Dayton (but Cincinnati is no problem).

Edit: Of course, you are a bit closer to Cincinnati hence the heights of the transmit antennas on the towers allow the signal path to your receive antenna to "clear" that part of the "hill" to the S+SW ... Hence the LOS (line of sight) result for all the Cincinnati area stations(including WCVN which is roughly about 500 feet lower than the others) on your TVfool plot ....

Sorry for the double posts, I've been trying to think of a good way to say something about this since plughplover mentioned the "puzzlement" of the TVfool signal level predictions for you for Dayton being as weak as they are given it also shows you only need to get your antenna 50FT above ground for LOS ..... Probably still haven't come up with a good way to do that, but here goes anyway :

Looking solely at your elevation plot to Dayton towers, the terrain issues *really* don't *look* that bad, and the ~50ft to LOS info in TVfool plot "confirms" that, in a sense, to the extent that it seems a bit puzzling why TVfool predicts the Dayton signals to be relatively weak - especially when even TVfool plots for other receive locations when seemingly much worse terrain issues are involved indicate/predict much stronger signals in similar circumstances involving distance and the stations facilties (power, transmit antenna height, frequency/etc) ...

EXCEPT (and this is what I meant earlier when I said TVfool takes some very "complex" issues into account) that we must also keep in mind that VHF/UHF RF signals do not "behave" like the "straight red lines" in the elevation profile I attached earlier. And, the "interaction" so to speak of those signals with the terrain+involving issues such as ground reflections and also where two "hills or bumps" that you are in "shadow of" are located in respect to each other+to the receive location, and the "differences" in signal propagation for say, VHF vs UHF (non-technically, VHF signals which are onlower frequencies, because of the longer wavelengths invovled can "bend" around hills better than signals on higher UHF frequencies, hence why the prediction for WDTN 2 analog is for higher signal levels than all the others) the refractivie "capability" of the "air" at any given time(it varies) in lower levels of atmosphere are complex and important issues involved which the TVfool prediction takes into account(well except for regarding the *varible* nature of the refractive capabilities of the "air" ) .....

As an example of what I'm talking about, attached is My tvfool plot (digital only), along with a elevation profile to WCVN-DT and WXIX-DT (the profiles to all the other Cincinnati area stations look very similar to the WXIX profile) ... As you can see, the elevation profiles look somewhat similar to yours (except the "hills" of most interest so to speak are at different distances from receive location) .... Yet, Except for WCVN-DT (I need an outdoor antenna for that one - but with a good outdoor antenna setup, I have PLENTY of headroom with even their signal) ------ I can receive them *all* with a UHF "bowtie" (like the $4 one at RS), and VHF rabbit ears placed near a south facing, 2nd story window .... Also -- if you notice, the distances are very similar (as are the transmit antenna heights, although generally the Dayton ones are a bit higher ) for me to Cincinnati stations as they are for you for Dayton, and yet, The Signals are predicted to be MUCH stronger (15~25db stronger) than your Dayton signal level predictions, and it is *not* because of anything the stations are doing ....

*IF* it were not for being able to look at something like TVfool, and there's also your reported dayton reception results so far which *seem* to correspond with what it says(well, except for WCVN-DT/KET, you should be able to easily get that one along with the other Cincinnati stations), and I only had the "elevation plot" and looking at topo maps/etc. to go on, I might expect your reception(and how "easy" it might be) of Dayton to be very similar to mine for Cincinnati (except for WCVN-DT), or in other words, I would have expected the Dayton signals to be much stronger than they actually seem to be at your location, And, before we had TVfool, I very well might have said that very thing ..... So, in other words, thank goodness we have TVfool now !!!!

Note: BTW, as I've said before, I'm located in a small steep valley -- *but* it just so happens, that the "open" ends of the valley which run in the same "directions" as the small stream that runs through it are to the NE and South, the same directions as The local TV transmitters .... I actually "think of" the situation to the South, towards Cincinnati as being pretty much or very close to being "terrain issue free", even though it actually isn't quite that way(except for a very small range of headings between 178+182 degrees), ... To the NorthWest, for example, the terrain rises 300FT HIGHER than my antenna within a few miles, and to east+west, 60 Feet higher than my antenna within 600 feet of receive antenna location ...

IMPORTANT UPDATE: Another likely, signifcant reason I suspect why the Cincinnati signals are stronger(or predicted to be) at my location than Dayton signals are at yours, although the situation seems "similar" to your situation with Dayton is because : Instead of running a elevation profile "directly to" the cincinnati stations (all at 188~192 degree bearing) --- In my case if I instead run a elevation profile with the "line" extending out ~30 miles from my location on a azimuth heading of 178~182 degrees, but *ONLY* if that line is located within a 178~182 degree bearing(I've added an attachement with a elevation profile at 180 degrees bearing from my location to demonstrate) ----- with my antenna at 35ft ABove ground level(it's actually a few feet higher than that) there is *NO* apparent terrain issue whatsoever, if you *imagine* there were a transmit antenna at the other end at about 1500FT/2000FT Above Sea level (ASL) ......

The elevation profiles I'm providing only show the terrain along a "line" from one "exact" point to another "exact" point, it doesn't show you what is on either side of that "line" ... In my case, on the "line" to Cincinnati stations, where the seemingly most "signifcant" terrain issue is, about 2.5 miles from receive antenna location, to the "left" of the line, there is only "air"(for about 3/8 mile towards the east, then there's another "cliff"/hill), and on the line and to the right there is "cliff" and "ground"/hill at higher elevation (over 900FT) ..... In your case, looking at the actual "topo map" on either side of the "line" to Dayton, where the terrain issues seem apparent, it(more or less) mostly looks like all "ground" on either side of the "line" ....

plughplover

02-25-08, 11:02 PM

pjpjpjpj

02-26-08, 01:08 PM

I wonder what the tvfool predictions for his location would look like if he plugged in, say, 40ft and 60ft (he used 20 on his first run). I.E. I wonder how rapidly the signal level rises as elevation increases, and what it is when he gets LOS...

What can I say... I can't stay away...

Attached are TVfool predictions for 20-, 40-, 60-, and 80-foot elevations from my address. Dissect away. I'm enjoying reading all the analysis (and still waiting on that HD Extender to come in stock!)

jimp2244

02-26-08, 02:26 PM

My TVfool results look extremely similar to yours... in fact maybe even a bit worse. No problems for me with any of the Dayton channels though...

plughplover

02-26-08, 05:16 PM

jimp224, you are definitely down in a valley - 160ft to Dayton LOS, 40ft to Cincy LOS!

pjpjpjpj, wow! 30dB improvement - that's 1000 times stronger signals. 20dB going from 40ft (just out of sight) to 60ft (line of sight) for most of Dayton. Interesting to see the difference it makes... Perhaps you should ask about getting some space on that cell tower ;)

Thanks for satisfying my curiosity (and I'm glad I am fortunate enough to have LOS from my condo attic)

Nitewatchman

02-26-08, 10:40 PM

plughplover

02-27-08, 12:32 AM

+3db = twice as much signal.

+30db = 10 times as much signal, Which is certianly still a lot, and would certianly be 1000 % "more" signal ....

dB scale is logarhythmic, while "twice as much signal" sounds like a lot(and it is, really), in the context of these high power TV/DTV transmissions, unless the signal is quite weak, 3db is usually a relatively small piece of the "entire pie" ....
dB (power) is defined as 10 * log(a/b)
therefore (a/b) = 10 ^ (db/10)

3db = 10 ^ (3/10) = 1.995 or approx 2
6db = 10 ^ (6/10) = 3.981 or approx 4
10db = 10 ^ (10/10) = 10
20db = 10 ^ (20/10) = 100
30db = 10 ^ (30/10) = 1000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel#Power

jimp2244

02-27-08, 07:27 AM

jimp224, you are definitely down in a valley - 160ft to Dayton LOS, 40ft to Cincy LOS!
Not as much as you'd think based on the tv fool results. I am sort of on a slope that rises from west to east. I can see for miles and miles to the west from a 2nd story window (can see the WSTR "Star Tower" from here). To the east there is not much to see at all because the hill keeps rising. To the north it's relatively flat as is the south.

It would be very difficult for tv fool results to be perfectly accurate, especially where I am. If I were to walk 100 ft east of here, I'd have walked up a 30 ft hill. My antenna is on the roof of a three story building if you look at it from the front (west side) or a two story building looking at it from the back (east side).

Whatever the results are, I have no issues with any Cincinnati or Dayton stations...

pjpjpjpj

02-27-08, 07:56 AM

I can see for miles and miles to the west from a 2nd story window (can see the WSTR "Star Tower" from here). To the east there is not much to see at all because the hill keeps rising. To the north it's relatively flat as is the south. ... If I were to walk 100 ft east of here, I'd have walked up a 30 ft hill.
So you must be somewhere on the hillside between Wyscarver and Reading?

pjpjpjpj, wow! 30dB improvement - that's 1000 times stronger signals. 20dB going from 40ft (just out of sight) to 60ft (line of sight) for most of Dayton. Interesting to see the difference it makes.
Okay, so I admittedly have not had a chance to study the info on TVFool. What numbers should I be looking at? I did see the "Path" (edges or LOS) and the "Rx(dBm)" which gets smaller as I go higher... what columns are most important to check... and what numbers do I want to see ("in the range of...")?

plughplover

02-27-08, 09:51 AM

Rx(dBm) is their prediction of signal strength.

dB is a unitless number. Because it indicates a ratio you commonly see a letter tacked on to indicate what the ratio is with respect to, in this case to 1 milliwatt. So -100dBm signal strength indicates a signal of 1mW * 10 ^ (-100/10) = 1.E-10mW

As Nitewatchman pointed out, dB are logarithmic; logarithms turn multiplication and division into addition and subtraction. Picking one of the stations at 20 ft and 80 ft, you simply look at the difference between the predicted signal strengths, say -97 and -67. The signal strength increased from -97dBm to -67dBm, an increase of 30dB.

BTW, putting this in the context of antenna gain figures...

You will commonly see one of two ratings for antennas - dBi or dBd
dBi = gain compared to an "isotropic" (think omnidirectional) antenna
dBd = gain compared to a dipole, which has 3dB(?) gain vs isotropic
N.B. if they just state 'dB' it is probably dBi as it gives a bigger number

Anyway, what this is telling you is that *whatever* the field strength is at your location, you ADD (logarithms, remember?) the antenna gain to that field strength.

So if the field strength at a location is -96dBm and an antenna has 6dB gain (a factor of ~4 increase), your recieved signal is at -90dBm (dB relative to 1mW). Put in that context you can see that the 30dB increase from elevation FAR outweighs most any antenna gain - you'd probably need a tuned parabolic dish or huge yagi (pointed *exactly* in the right direction) to get anywhere near 30dBi antenna gain.

Of course, then you have to figure in line losses. 100ft of RG59 is going to cause you to loose 6 to 10dB of your signal at UHF frequencies - thus the importance of a (low noise figure) amp AT the antenna if you are feeding a long lossy coax (and the futility of putting one at the other end by the TV - by then the signal is down in the noise).

The answer to your other question is difficult to predict. We still have not quantified the losses due to 'attic mounting' (which consists _both_ of losses due to building materials and the reduction of antenna gain due to their proximity), nor do we have a figure as to your receiver sensitivity, which can vary greatly (and may be an issue with the HDhomerun - how much effort {=cost} did they put into the ATSC tuner?)

plughplover

02-27-08, 09:59 AM

It would be very difficult for tv fool results to be perfectly accurate, especially where I am.
Good point - given your location description and the inherent inaccuracies in address -> lat+long algorithms (if nothing else), it may be calculating it for somewhere worse off.

Side note - when I was playing with those online USGS elevation plots, most of the address->lat,long services gave values for my address that tended to plot on the wrong side of the street on the USGS maps. :rolleyes:

jimp2244

02-27-08, 11:08 AM

So you must be somewhere on the hillside between Wyscarver and Reading?
Further north. I'm off of Kemper between US 42 and Reed Hartman.

Bruhub

02-27-08, 01:05 PM

I finally had success getting both Cincinnati and Dayton stations :)

I'm in Monroe, pretty much half way between Cincy and Dayton. I installed a CM 4221 in my attic but could only get one or the other and not both. I took the shield (the rectangular grid) off of the antenna and now I get both markets and haven't seen any multi-path issues yet. I even still receive WCPO which I thought I would lose. Man I love free TV :)

Nitewatchman

02-27-08, 02:29 PM

jim tressler

02-27-08, 02:30 PM

bruhub - can you take a picutre?

Dimitriz

02-27-08, 02:33 PM

Hey guys, does anyone by Maineville can help me out ($) with putting an end on the RG6 cable?
Apparently I cannot EVER do it right. GRRRRRRRRR.., All of a sudden my signal went down the hill and I suspect that the end that attaches to the antenna is either loose or water seeped into it. This weekend I am going to climb the mast and take the cable down.

Thanks

Bruhub

02-27-08, 03:16 PM

Here are some pictures of what it looks like now. I thought I had pictures with the shield on but I can't find them.

http://www.bruhub.com/blogPics/IMG_4371.JPG
http://www.bruhub.com/blogPics/IMG_4372.JPG
http://www.bruhub.com/blogPics/IMG_4373.JPG

Splicer010

02-27-08, 03:26 PM

Bruhub

02-27-08, 04:07 PM

It's been a couple months I don't remember exact prices but here are rough guesstimates:

Antenna: $34 shipped

Mast: $6 at Home Depot
Mast joist mount: $5 at Home Depot
100 ft of RG6 cable: ~$20 at Home Depot
10 Cat6 f connectors: ~$4 at Home Depot
F connector crimper (I didn’t have one): $15 at Home Depot

Not included is drywall costs because I had to run cables through my wall and drill holes through the floor (had to remove a 12” by 12” section of drywall to do that).

I really wish I could’ve bought a compression tool instead of the crimper. The crimped f-connectors are pretty shoddy.

Next up is splitting the signal and running it to the TV in the basement.

plughplover

02-27-08, 04:25 PM

Probably didn't say it clearly enough, but what I'm getting at is that a 30db increase is a increase by a factor of (approximately) TIMES 10 , not times 1000.

Each doubling of power is allways an increase of (approx.) 3db, that doesn't change for the first 3db increase (0~3db) in a 30db increase to the last 3db increase (27~30db increase) ....
OK, using your approach (and recognizing that 3dB is not _exactly_ a doubling) then

30/3 = 10, therefore 30dB yields 2 ^ 10 = 1024 times

3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 = 30 dB
2 * 2 * 2 * 2 * 2 * 2 * 2 * 2 * 2 * 2 = 1024 times

For example, If we "pretend" a 2 way splitter doesn't have any insertion loss, in which case signals will be about -3db less on each output port vs. if the splitter weren't in line, it wouldn't take 1,000 2 way splitters to reach -30db, it would take only 10 of them ....

absolutely correct. -3 -3 -3 -3 -3 -3 -3 -3 -3 -3 = -30dB

Or, for instance, if a station say, increases power from 1 KW ERP, to 1 MW ERP, or from 1 Watt to about 1024 watts, -- They are increasing power by about 30db, or one could say they are increasing power by a factor of 10 TIMES as much power, not 1000 times as much ....
uh...
factor of 1000 -- 1,000W * 1000 = 1,000,000W = 1MW
vs
factor of 10 -- 1,000W * 10 = 10,000W = 10KW

Nitewatchman

02-27-08, 04:36 PM

OK, using your approach (and recognizing that 3dB is not _exactly_ a doubling) then

30/3 = 10, therefore 30dB yields 2 ^ 10 = 1024 times

3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 = 30 dB
2 * 2 * 2 * 2 * 2 * 2 * 2 * 2 * 2 * 2 = 1024 times

The difference between 1 watt and 1024 watts is 1024 TIMES AS MANY WATTS, or 30db MORE POWER is all your saying here (which is correct) ....

It's not 1024 TIMES as much "power" .... Its 10 times as much ....

Update :

uh...
1MW/1KW = 1000
1,000W * 1000 = 1,000,000W = 1MW
vs

Each above is 1000 times the "watts", but 10 times the signal power (30db increase) ....

Update :

1,000W * 10 = 10,000W = 10KW

No, it doesn't work like that.

power doubling #1 : 1000 Watts x 2 = 2000 watts = 3db increase.

Power doubling #2 : 2000 watts x 2 = 4000 watts = 3db increase (6db increase from our 1000 watts) ...

..... And so on, you do that 10 times, you get to a 30db increase, or 10 times as much power -- or 1000W x doubling power 10 times = 1 MW ....

plughplover

02-27-08, 04:58 PM

No, it doesn't work like that.

power doubling #1 : 1000 Watts x 2 = 2000 watts = 3db increase.

Power doubling #2 : 2000 watts x 2 = 4000 watts = 3db increase (6db increase from our 1000 watts) ...

..... And so on, you do that 10 times, you get to a 30db increase, or 10 times as much power -- or 1000W x doubling power 10 times = 1 MW ....

power doubling #1 : 1000 Watts x 2^1 = 2000 watts = 3db increase.
power doubling #2 : 1000 Watts x 2^2 = 4000 watts = 3db increase.
power doubling #3 : 1000 Watts x 2^3 = 8000 watts = 3db increase.
power doubling #4 : 1000 Watts x 2^4 = 16000 watts = 3db increase.
power doubling #5 : 1000 Watts x 2^5 = 32000 watts = 3db increase.
power doubling #6 : 1000 Watts x 2^6 = 64000 watts = 3db increase.
power doubling #7 : 1000 Watts x 2^7 = 128000 watts = 3db increase.
power doubling #8 : 1000 Watts x 2^8 = 256000 watts = 3db increase.
power doubling #9 : 1000 Watts x 2^9 = 512000 watts = 3db increase.
power doubling #10 : 1000 Watts x 2^10 = 1024000 watts = 3db increase.

2^10 = 1024 or approx 1000
or 1000 Watts times a factor of 1000 yeilds a 30dB increase

I'm sure the stations would love it if increasing their output by 30dB only meant increasing their electric bill by ten times, but unfortunately it don't work that way.

Nitewatchman

02-27-08, 05:42 PM

power doubling #1 : 1000 Watts x 2^1 = 2000 watts = 3db increase.
power doubling #2 : 1000 Watts x 2^2 = 4000 watts = 3db increase.
power doubling #3 : 1000 Watts x 2^3 = 8000 watts = 3db increase.
power doubling #4 : 1000 Watts x 2^4 = 16000 watts = 3db increase.
power doubling #5 : 1000 Watts x 2^5 = 32000 watts = 3db increase.
power doubling #6 : 1000 Watts x 2^6 = 64000 watts = 3db increase.
power doubling #7 : 1000 Watts x 2^7 = 128000 watts = 3db increase.
power doubling #8 : 1000 Watts x 2^8 = 256000 watts = 3db increase.
power doubling #9 : 1000 Watts x 2^9 = 512000 watts = 3db increase.
power doubling #10 : 1000 Watts x 2^10 = 1024000 watts = 3db increase.

2^10 = 1024 or approx 1000
or 1000 Watts times a factor of 1000 yeilds a 30dB increase

Yes, exactly right. Like I said, Yes, that's a factor of x1000 in this case x1000 watts, but it is only a increase of *signal power* of a factor of 10x ..... Each doubling of power (it doesn't matter WHAT the number of "watts" are) is *ONLY* a 3db increase!

It doesn't matter if it's the difference between 1 watt and 2 watts, or 512KW ERP and 1MW ERP, if you need exactly 3db "more" to reach threshold for reception from a station sending 1 watt or 512 KW, the results are the same ....

again, 1000 watts x 1000 watts (a factor of x1000) yields a 10x increase(doubling the power 10 times = 30db increase) in signal power, ten TIMES as much signal, or a 30db increase.

I'm sure the stations would love it if increasing their output by 30dB only meant increasing their electric bill by ten times, but unfortunately it don't work that way.

That's Exactly correct, and has been exactly what I've been saying.

Increasing power from 1 watt to 2 watts is a 3db increase.

Increasing power from 512 KW ERP to 1000KW ERP (1 MW) is also, only a 3db increase.

Increase from 1 KW to 1MW (10 times more signal power, 1000x as many watts) is a 30db increase in power, for 10 times more power, not 1000 times "more" signal power .....

As for stations power bills .... Keep in mind, you have :

TPO(transmitter power output) - Transmission line loss + Antenna gain = ERP (effective radiated power) ....

ERP sent in your direction in watts (some stations use directional antenna patterns) is what is shown on the TVfool plot .....

Stations using low-gain, non-directional antennas, broadcasting on UHF with High ERP's "suck down the juice" so to speak from the power company ......

William Smith

02-27-08, 08:04 PM

And if you do the math the WCVN-DT signal at 50Kw ERP is only 13 dB down from the maximum of 1Mw.

plughplover

02-27-08, 09:19 PM

Increase from 1 KW to 1MW (10 times more signal power, 1000x as many watts)
"10 times more signal power = 1000 times as many watts"
Please (explicitly) define "signal power" vs "watts; what are the units, what is the mathematical derivation.

In the meantime...
{note: all use of the term 'log' below mean 'log to the base 10'}
"Introductory Circuit Analysis" (8th ed) Boylestad
Section 4.3 POWER

Power is an indication of how much work (the conversion of energy from one form to another) can be accomplished in a specificed amount of time, that is a rate of doing work.
{skipping ahead}
The electrical unit of measurement for power is the watt (W), defined by

(eqn 4.8) 1 watt (W) = 1 joule/second (J/s)Section 21.3 DECIBELS

Power Gain

Two levels of power can be compared using a unit of measure called the bel, which is defined by the following equation:

(eqn 21.8) B = Log (P2 / P1)

However, to provide a unit of measure of less magnitude, a decibel is defined, where

(eqn 21.9) 1 bel = 10 decibels (dB)

The result is the following important equation, which compares power levels P2 and P1 in decibels.

(eqn 21.10) dB = 10 Log (P2 / P1)

If the power levels are equal (P2 = P1), there is no change in power level, and dB = 0. If there is an increase in power level (P2 > P1), the resulting decibel level is positive. If there is a decrease in power level (P2 < P1), the resulting decibel level will be negative.

For the special case of P2 = 2*P1, the gain in decibels is

dB = 10 log (P2 / P1) = 10 log (2) = 3 dB

{skipping ahead}

For some applications, a reference level is established to permit a comparison of decibel levels from one situation to another. For communication systems a commonly applied reference level is

Pref = 1 mW (across a 600 ohm load)

Equation (21.10) is then typically writen as

(eqn 21.11) dBm = 10 log (P / 1mW) |600-ohms

Note the subscript m to denote that the decibel level is determined with a reference level of 1mW.

In particular, for P = 40 mW,

dBm = 10 log (40mW / 1mW) = 10 log (40) = 10(1.6) = 16dBm

where as for P = 4W,

dBm = 10 log (4000mW / 1mW) = 10 log (4000) = 10(3.6) = 36 dBm

Even though the power level has increased by a factor of 4000mW / 40 mW = 100, the dBm increase is limited to 20dBm.
{...}

and just because it is interesting

"ARRL Antenna Handbook" (15th ed)
Chapter 23 Radio Wave Propogation
{...}
A measurement of the strength of the wave at a distance from the transmitting antenna is its field intensity, which is synonymous with field strength. The strength of a wave is measured as the voltage between two points lying on an electric field line of force in the plane of the wave front. The standard of measure for field intensity is the voltage developed in a wire one meter long, expressed as volts per meter.
{...}
The voltage in a wave is usually quite low, so the measurement is made in millivolts or microvolts per meter. The voltage goes through time variations like those of the current that caused the wave. It is measured like any other AC voltage - in terms of effective value or, sometimes, the peak value.
{...}
The relationship between field intensity and power density is similar to that for voltage and power in ordinary circuits. They are related by hte impedance of free space, which has been determined to be 377 ohms. A field intensity of one volt per meter is therefore equivalent to a power density of

P = (E^2)/Z = (1volt/m)^2 / 377
= 1/377 (W/square meter) = 2.65 mW per square meter

Because of the relationship between voltage and power, the power density therefore varies with the square root of the field intensity, or inversely with the square of the distance. If the power density at one mile is 4mW per square meter, than at a distance of two miles it will be 1mW per square meter.

Interesting, but so what? Well, it defines some relevant terms and reiterates the voltage <-> power relationship, showing that it applies to field strength and power.; ie given a voltage across a load, power is (V^2)/R.

plughplover

02-27-08, 09:41 PM

And if you do the math the WCVN-DT signal at 50Kw ERP is only 13 dB down from the maximum of 1Mw.
Yup.

For those who don't know what 'ERP' or 'EIRP' means, it a way of figuring in the gain and antenna pattern of the transmitting antenna.

Say you put 1000W into a directional beam antenna; someone IN the beam pattern gets a really nice strong signal. You can measure that field strength. Now work backwards from that, but assume that instead of a directional beam, the transmitter was using an omnidirectional antenna. You come up with a MUCH larger value for the apparent xmitter power.

This is the Effective Isotropic Radiated Power

(ERP is referenced to a half-wave dipole rather than an isotropic radiator)

An 'inverse' example of this is WBDT in Dayton. They intentionally have a null in their antenna pattern towards us, which is why the ERP number shown on tvfool reports is such a low value (lower than their actual xmitter power).

Nitewatchman

02-28-08, 08:01 AM

[quote]
In the meantime...

Nice try.

.... .. .... .. (The "REAL" CW )

In regards to a +30db increase in signal power and how "much" of an increase in power that is :

#1). The way you are saying it is : it(30db increase) is increasing power by a factor of 1000. As you've already demonstrated, this is the correct power ratio for 30db increase, as per the following equation :

dB = 10 log (P1/P2)

Of course, That is ENTIRELY correct. In addition to the info the books on my shelves(including ARRL antenna book), I or, for those who don't have access to my bookshelf, anyone else can also find this information on many internet websites, including calculators which will make it really easy for anyone to "use" this equation if they're not handy with the "scientific" caluator (calc.exe) included with Windoze ....

Here are a few of those :

http://www.mogami.com/e/cad/db.html

http://www.cisco.com/en/US/tech/tk722/tk809/technologies_tech_note09186a00800e90fe.shtml

http://sss-mag.com/db.html

http://www.net-comber.com/decibel.html

*of course* i'm not disputing that(although I realize it *looks like* that's what I was doing), I'm well aware of it, I first went to "radio school" 30 years ago(in a way, actually earlier than that, but I digress). And, as I said in my first post on this "DB is logarhythmic", and as you said, it is "unitless", and is a ratio, in this case, between two power levels, which are being expressed as dBm (dBmW), which is refferenced to 1 mW ....

But, On a forum such as this one where I believe it's possible, if not likely that many or most readers are not going to understand "what that means" (hopefully in most cases those who do will understand what I'm getting at as well), as it is a bit of a difficult concept to fully "grasp", at least I thought it was "way back when" I was studying for "radio school" and the like .... In the sense that Isuspect many who read your original 30db = "1'000 times stronger" reply to pjpjpj are going to think for instance that "1000 times stronger" or +30db must mean, something more "along the lines of" that being "1,000 times better", which is why I have been offering a different perspective on it, as described in #2 below ...

The way *I* have been saying the same thing(more or less), in the sense that it "produces" the same result, in hopes to make it "easier" for folks to understand this(frankly, I can't think of a way to explain #1 in an "understandable" plain english manner - and You've already done as well as can be expected there) - and since readers are getting the perspective of both #1 AND #2, even better .... And, especially perhaps when one understands that splitting the signal is attenuating by -3db each time you split it, but without the the insertion loss of your 2 way splitter taken into account :

#2). Is that #1 in this case (30db increase) is the same result(more or less) as Doubling the amount of power 10 times, or "Removing" 10 "magic" two way splitters each which has no insertion loss. Because (approx) 2x power = +3db, and because 3db x 10 = 30db. Why do I think this is "still" accurate", when dB is unitless, and When as we both know it's an factor power ratio of X 1000 ?

Because it is still an INCREASE in power by a factor of 1000 (more or less). Because, A 3db increase is allways equivilent to a x1.995 increase in power(rounding off to two for simplicity's sake). So, when doubling power 10 TIMES I believe it is also accurate to say (in a "non-logarhytic" sense) you have 10 TIMES "more signal", or 30db more signal. Not in terms of "watts" or any specific "unit" of measurement for power, or in terms of how much the power bill is, in terms of a "non-logarhythmic way of looking at it, and in a "practical way" that hopefully is a "plain english" way to make some sense out of .... Looking at it "this way", What is important here is that Twice as much power is allways = 3db increase in power, *or* as you put it earlier (and is also described in your most recent references and at the URL's I provided above ) :

dB (power) is defined as 10 * log(a/b)
therefore (a/b) = 10 ^ (db/10)

3db = 10 ^ (3/10) = 1.995 or approx 2

That's the same thing as saying (approx) 2x power = +3db .... Then, Double it again, +6db, double it again, +9db and so on ....

Please (explicitly) define "signal power" vs "watts;]

"explicitly" I believe It's obvious what I meant by "more signal power" = more power, or More signal, or "more watts".

what is the mathematical derivation.....

For a 2x increase :

Power x 2 = +3db

For 30db increase, 3db x 10, or doubling power 10 times. (approx)

And (take your pick) :

A). 3db+3db+3db+3db+3db+3db+3db+3db+3db+3db= 30db

or

B). 3db x 10 = 30db = doubling power TEN TIMES = or in other less "technially" accurate terms 10 TIMES MORE signal ...

DOUBLING of power is increasing power by a factor of 2 ... Therefore, we double the power TEN TIMES, and that is TEN TIMES the amount of signal we started with .... more Signal, more signal power, power, "better" signal if you want, take your pick .....

So, is it "1000" TIMES more power or 10 Times "more power" ... the power ratio is certianly x1000 for a 30db increase, but I submit it may be more "easily" and even perhaps in some (or many?) cases more "accurately" understood by many readers here to think of it in this case as doubling power 10 times = 10 times *more signal*, based on : power x 2 = +3db for each doubling of power ....

Since 3db allways = a doubling of amount of "signal" or "power
, I think It should be obvious why this may be a good way to think about it .... An accurate understanding of just "how much" more "signal" is involved. Why? As I've already noted, For example, because Going from 1 watt to 2 watts is the same increase concering the "ratio" of (3db) going from say, 512KW ERP to 1 MW ERP (still just 3db) ...

As mentioned, 50KW is "only" 13db down from 1MW ... #1 says that's 19.95626 times "less" power ... #2, would say it's cutting power in half 4.3 times, which is the same as adding ~4 2 way splitters, but each of them this time with a little insertion loss ....

I see in various posts on this forum that time and time again where folks are *confused* about "signal power", as if a increase of 1 watt to 2 watts is "a lot less of a power incresase" in terms of the RATIO involved between 1 watt and two watts or between 512KW to 1MW ... They're both THE SAME, they are both a 3db increase in power, or TWICE as much power ... I just think if You say "30db is a factor of 1000 times more power", while that is certinaly accurate, I expect it gives many folks reading the impression it's a lot more than it actually is .....

Nitewatchman

02-28-08, 08:56 AM

An 'inverse' example of this is WBDT in Dayton. They intentionally have a null in their antenna pattern towards us, which is why the ERP number shown on tvfool reports is such a low value (lower than their actual xmitter power).

Yes, although I don't know how "intentional" that is. Regarding the digital station (WBDT-DT) At URL below, see the "tech box" info in their FCC form 302 (for their license to cover granted by FCC in 2004) for "exact" details on the TPO(2.5 KW)/ transmission line loss(2.58db)/antenna gain(max = 14.07db/max ERP(15.4dBk or 35KW ERP) etc for their current license(requires a PDF reader to access).

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=100628342&formid=2&fac_num=70138

Do note that WBDT-DT is moving to 26 post-transistion ....

Also, there are several issues I think it's fun to think about or speculate about concerning WBDT-DT. I don't know, and can only speculate, but

#1. I'd guess One likely reason for the "Null" in their pattern to the south I suspect is to protect WLEX 18(analog), Lexington, KY. It has been really "fun" here to aim antenna at Lexington when there's a bit of tropo scatter in the air and see WLEX(I've actually seen it almost "clear as a bell" on occasion WITH WBDT-DT on air), and aim antenna at Dayton (WBDT is 12 miles from me) and decode WBDT perfectly ...

#2). When they received their DTV construction permit, and allocation for channel 18, their analog facility was transmitting from a location in Springfield, Ohio from a shorter Stick (less power/less coverage area/etc). Pax bought them around the time the DTV table of allotments were being developed, and not look after that, ACME bought it from Pax, and the didn't "move" to their new (5000 KW ERP analog, with D/A) improved/maximized facility,(which is located on the same "antenna farm" as rest of the Dayton full service stations) until 1999 or 2000, (If I recall correctly it was ACME who made the "improvements") Which AFTER the DTV table of allotments were developed, which were based on (as much as possible) covering the service area of the analog station (i.e. likely the "old" lesser facilities in Springfield).

3.) Their "maximum" ERP (that which equates to a relative field value of 1 as shown in their Directinal antenna pattern info on FCC site) is 35 KW ERP(DTV "average" power), and they are "Fully licensed" at that power level ... I know of *no* other full service DTV station on UHF which were allocated that "low" of a full power UHF allocation, or licensed for it which is especially interesting in regards to #2 perhaps(and perhaps #1 as well) I think given their analog, as noted above is a 5000KW ERP (NTSC "peak" power) facility.

#4). The antenna pattern for the Digital makes perfect sense, for their transmit location, as their COL is springfield, and the transmit location is such taht the main lobe is pretty much "towards" springfield ....

----------------------------

it a way of figuring in the gain and antenna pattern of the transmitting antenna.

Here is a "fun way" of figuring ERP from the antenna pattern info on FCC site ( it relates directly to some of the info you posted from ARRL antenna handbook), although of course you can have tvfool do it "automatically" for you (and more accurately, If I recall correctly, as this only lists the "values" for 10 degree increments) ....

If you go here, and look at the antenna pattern info listed for WBDT-DT 18 currently licensed facilities:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=WBDT&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

Under "relative field values for directional antennas" you get a bunch of azimuth headings and relative field values .... a relative field value of "1.000" = 35 KW ERP, and is the "maximum" antenna gain ... using the "reverse" (true not magnetic) bearing - i.e. The azimuth bearing FROM WBDT transmit lcoation TO your receive location, note that value ... In my case, for the example below, I'll use the info for my location ....

I'm at about a 222 degree bearing from WBDT-DT transmit antenna, so I notice it says ".207" for 220 degrees ...

So, to figure ERP sent in my direction from WBDT-DT (assuming the "real world" installation/etc. of WBDT-DT's transmit antenna actually matches what FCC says), I use the following formula :

(relative field value in My direction squared) x 35,000 Watts = ERP being radiated in my direction ...

That's :

(.207x.207) x 35,000 watts = 1499.715 Watts ERP .... Or, lets round that off and say 1.5 KW ERP ... TVfool says Xmit column says : 1.51KW ERP ... Cose enough ...

----------

Interestingly enough, I'm also right in one of WHIO-DT's biggest nulls, which not surprisingly, is also right towards WDRB 41 Louisville .... I'm in a bit of a null from WRGT-DT as well ... Which really, Is fine with me, as I receive them all fine anyway ....

plughplover

02-28-08, 02:26 PM

Nitewatchman

02-28-08, 06:00 PM

If 'doubling of power' had some special significance in terms of signal reception, then using it as a measure of signal change might make some sense. 3dB does 'pop up' a lot (insertion of a splitter as you mention is one example) but other than its equivalence to a factor of two it has no special meaning that IMO warrants creation of a 'number of doublings' (ie 2^N) scale.

I believe It does have significance for reception, and for understanding how it works. I suspect That's probably one of the reasons why several broadcast engineers who post on this form(including posts on this very thread or others in the area)usually explain these issues along the lines of reffering to each "doubling" of power as an increase of about 3db. In fact, since I've seen those sorts of explanations "work so well" here(or at least that's the way it seemed to me) is the reason why I'm using it as well.

And, For that matter, understanding what happens to your signal levels when you add a "splitter" may very well often be the only thing many folks *need* to understand about decibels and signal levels.

Many seem to be under the impression for instance, that 1000KW ERP is a LOT more than 512KW ERP, and some even come here and complain that the stations aren't "sending enough signal", and that it's the stations fault they can't acheive reception, when they don't realize the difference between such "big numbers" is only 3db ....

While it is true, in particular with respect to digital TV transmission, that a 3dB increase CAN mean the difference between an unusable and a watchable signal, it doesn't 'scale' - every 3dB increase does not make it 'twice as watchable' ;)

I suspect It's probably a good idea in many circumstances if you can at have at least 10db more "headroom" as "fade margin" so to speak for your weakest desired signal. if you have trees, especially a lot of them(as I do) The difference on UHF between summer (leaves) and winter (no leaves) can easily be 3db or more. It's hard to "measure" really(as one never really knows what is causing such "differences") but the leaves in my case seem to "add" about 5db or so attenuation on UHF in summer ....

My statement that the signal was '1000 times stronger' is correct and accurate. Your statement that 30dB is equivalent to doubling the signal 10 times is also correct and 'accurate' (1024 vs 1000),

Exactly.

but then calling this '10 times the signal power'? Well, obviously I take issue with that. .

You probably should take issue with it because it is an inaccurate way to say it. An accurate way to say it(as you noted) is that each doubling of power is only a 3db increase, thus doubling power 10 times = 30db increase.

I resorted to using (admittedly inaccurate) phrases like "10 times more signal" at first because I was in a "hurry" and was "cutting corners" so to speak, and also because there's a lot more to "30db is 1000 times stronger signals"(as you originally stated it in your response to pjpjpjpj) than "meets the eye", so to speak as I think one must really understand the "equation" involved and logaryhtmic nature of it and "db" as well as "watt" as a unit of measurement for power to really understand what it means.

I think If one DOESN'T understand that(hopefully anyone reading here does, since you've done a fine job of explaining it), then one easily can come away thinking that any 3db "portion" of the 30db increase, or 30db or 1000 times stronger signals" is a LOT more than what it actually is (not to say 30db increase isn't a "lot" as it is "a LOT" ) ..... or, for instance thinking that something like 512KW vs. 1024KW is a LOT more power than it actually is .... such as perhaps something along the lines of "512 times more" instead of the accurate 2 times more ......

Nitewatchman

02-28-08, 06:16 PM

FCC recently required stations to file a "DTV Transition Status report" (FCC form 387) ... All of them are in for stations in our area now. Follows is a summary of the info in the Cincinnati market stations' 387 forms. Of course, appreciate any corrections/improvements/suggestions/comments/questions etc anyone might have about any of this.

Note #1 :The forms can be updated when needed regarding certain specifics, so I suppose one could think of some of this as a bit "tentative", especially perhaps the stations in section (b) and (c), I would not think in likely there would be any changes regarding (a).

Note #2: I'll post separate posts for Dayton+Lima in Dayton thread, I put WKOI with Dayton and WBGU with Lima as well.

Note #3: There were some "exhibits" attached to certain forms that were not publicly available for download from a "link" in the forms, so I'm not sure what those exhibits might say. While there is probably not anything "unusual", then again - as one example, WBGU Bowling Green(currently out-of-core digital 56, analog 27, moving digital to 27) selected on the forum that they "planned on providing full analog service until the transition date (2/17/09) ... However, in an exhibit provided with the form, they said if they're plans for some new equipment(new mask filter/etc) work out on the timeline they expect, they're current plans are to Discontinue analog service early, by September 2008. Note: In *some* circumstances, FCC is allowing early analog shut off(or reductions in analog or digital power or service), or in some cases if station doesn't cause interference to other stations, stations which are moving may be allowed to remain on their current DTV channel for a time post transition ...

Note #4 : sorry this isn't as "short" as I intended it to be, but I found some of the info difficult to accurately summarize in a "short" manner, especially involving stations in sections (B) and (C), which I'd think, if there are any changes to their current Plans "as summarized", it might involve one or some of those ....

Ok, First -- ALL of the Cincinnati (and Dayton for that matter) stations currently indicate they are going to continue to provide full analog service until transition date -- Which means they don't plan on reducing analog service in any shape or forum before 2/17/09, and it means they will be shutting down their analogs, sometime on 2/17/09 before 11:59PM EST ...

A). Cincinnati market Stations which will be staying "where they are" post transistion, which are also Stations which are already operating their fully authorized, final, DTV post-transition facility - -- All these have to do is shut the analog transmitter off sometime on the day 2/17/09 on or before11:59:59 PM EST ....

WCVN-DT 24

WPTO-DT 28

WXIX-DT 29

WCET-DT 34

WLWT-DT 35

WKON-DT 44 (not Cincinnati market, but can't recall which market they're in otherwise, so "close enough")

---------------------------------------------------------------------

B). Stations Which will be staying "where they are" post transition, but ARE NOT currently operating their fully authorized, final DTV post transition facility :

WCPO-DT 10 :

It says they are expecting to file with FCC for a CP (construction permit) for Fully authorized DTV facilities on March 17, 2009.

They say are not currently operating a "fully authorized" post-transition facility, basically because the Transmit antenna height (side mounted on tower) needs to be moved to a top-mounted position(not possible currently, because that's where the analog station transmits from). While I recall they did maximize power as much as possible somewhat recently in order to "do as much as they can" from their current side-mounted antenna, having the antenna side mounted (and analog antenna top mounted), means they are currently serving with their digital signal about 98.5% of their analog station's service area, in order to "get it" to 100%, they have to move the digital antenna to top of tower ...

It says that they expect their fully authorized, final DTV post transition facility to be completed and operational by June 1, 2009.

Basically, what they plan to do is (if FCC allows it), is, operate the analog+digital as they are now until after the transition is over (2/17/09), then at that point file for a STA for the digital to reduce power, which they say is necessary to allow for necessary modifications to their current (digital) side-mounted antenna so that tower workers will be able to install new digital antenna at top of tower ... They say the reduced power STA will still cover 85% of the current DTV service population). They say in May 2009, the current analog antenna will be replaced by the new top mount digital antenna, and by end of may 2009/beginning of June 2009, they can begin operation of the fully authorized facility.

The following document, entitled "WCPO-DT DTV Transition Plan exhibit", attached to their form 387 explains in detail their post-transition plan (note: Requires a PDF reader to access) :

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=618816

WSTR-DT 33 :

Says that although they are not currently operating their fully authorized final/post-transition facility, they are currently covering their analog's entire service population with digital with a side mounted(to tower) transmit antenna for their digital station via an STA with increased ERP (900KW ERP) to compensate for the lower antenna height(the lower antenna height is why they aren't operating their fully authorized "final" post-transition facility). They say they plan to file for a CP (construction permit) for their final, post-transition facilities on or around 3/17/2008, and that they are evaluating their options and will update their form 387 accordingly ...

---------------------------------------------------------

(C) . Station which will be moving to different channel allocation post transistion :

WKRC - Currently on analog 12, digital 31 - Moving digital to 12 Post-transition :

Expects to be providing full digital service (on 12) at transition date (2/17/09)

Expects to file for CP for post-transition facility on 3/17/08.

They plan on using the current, top mounted antenna(and transmission line) for post-transition operation, this is of course currently used for Analog 12.

In exhibit attached to the form 387, They say they plan on ordering the new Channel 12 digital transmitter in next several weeks and plan to install it in Mid-2008, and they say there will be no disruption to pre-transition analog or digital service or post-transition digital service. They also say they'll update the form 387 as "circumstances warrant and in any event by October 20, 2008" ....

pjpjpjpj

02-28-08, 09:11 PM

Thanks for all the info, Nitewatchman.

Just curious - do we know if the digital stations will continue to have "remap" numbers after the transition, or if they'll permanently "become" the new number?

In other words, WXIX has been "channel 19" my whole life (or at least since I was watching cartoons in the early 70s) and it will be very strange to have to call it "channel 29". Will they remap to "19" (even though they will still "really" be 29), or permanently become "WXIX 29"?

This isn't some technical question or fear of confusion on my part, I am just curious. That'll be a lot of signage, letterhead, "name goodwill", etc., etc., etc., that they'll have to change/lose if all those stations don't get to stay as their long-time call numbers.

jimp2244

02-28-08, 10:46 PM

jimp2244

02-28-08, 10:49 PM

As of about 10:30pm, I am getting "no signal" on WCVN-DT. Also, on WCET-DT, I am getting full "signal strength" on my TV but no picture or sound on 48-1 or 48-2. Did not have time to do more in depth checking using TSReader, etc. so all I have to go on is my TV at this point. All other channels, including the analogs for WCET and WCVN are working fine for me at this point. I also meant to check WPTO-DT and WPTD-DT but did not have a chance.

robmadden1

02-29-08, 06:03 AM

As of 6am WCET 48.1 and 48.2 still no picture or sound but has signal strength.

My Sharp AQUA is reading signal strength at 76 max 78 and no broadcast right now.

jimp2244

02-29-08, 10:50 AM

As of around 10 this morning WCET-DT 48-1 and 48-2 seem to be back to normal, at least when I am viewing through TSReader.

WCVN-DT is showing up in TSReader with a weak signal, but still nothing to decode, no picture or sound.

Bill R (# 2)

02-29-08, 12:05 PM

As of 6am WCET 48.1 and 48.2 still no picture or sound but has signal strength.

I noticed that several times this week usually during the morning. Apparently they are working on something.

jimp2244

03-02-08, 07:18 PM

WCVN-DT is still "down" today...

Also, can't say for sure because I don't regularly watch the analog version, but it seems that analog WCVN is much weeker than normal as well. Still can "see" it, though very snowy.

William Smith

03-03-08, 11:55 AM

JMP,

Where are you located?

William

pjpjpjpj

03-03-08, 01:13 PM

Jim and Nitewatchman and those putting their heads together about my conundrum in Evendale (sorry this is so long, sorry to bore all you others!):

I did a few things this weekend, in anticipation of the HD extender arriving this Wednesday (woo hoo!):

First, I installed my HD Homerun on the network and got it working. To do this, I just hooked it into my router in our study (where the router is, though the HDHR will end up in an upstairs closet, closer to the attic). As a test, I hooked one of my DIY "DB4" clones to it, just sitting in the same room, and added a splitter into the two tuners (none of the coax runs being longer than 3 feet each). I installed the software (went very smoothly!) and did a channel scan.

First of all, the channel reception info screen in the software is much more informational than my TV info screen. Although my antenna was in another room from where the previous one has been (behind the TV cabinet), the reception was about the same. This made me feel better about the previously-mentioned concern that the HDHR might not have as "good" of a tuner as my TV itself. Apparently, it's the same or pretty darn close. I was able to get all the same channels as normal, but it also let me see what I was getting as far as the Dayton stations that the TV just gives me "no signal". There were a few brief blips of life on all the major Dayton stations that my previously-posted TVFool plots indicate would be at about the 100-ish level Rx number at 25 feet (and this was at, oh, about 4 feet and indoors).

Anyway, once I had that all installed, I began work on installing the antenna in the attic and the HDHR in the upstairs closet. I put the DB4 in the dead middle of the attic, facing roughly due West (just for starters), ran a 15-foot RG6 coax from the antenna to the splitter (I figure 15-foot is a good starter that will give me leeway to move it around some when I start testing for real) and 3-foot RG6 from the splitter to each HDHR tuner in the closet below. But since I don't have the long CAT5 to hook the HDHR to the router yet (arrives Wednesday with the extenders), I tried an experiment - I took one of the two RG6's off the HDHR, used a female-female connector, and ran a 100-ft RG6 coax down to my TV (the same 100' I used before). I know this set-up is fraught with losses (expecially the cable splitting and the other side going into the "dead" HDHR), but I wanted to see what I would get. Well, it was about what I expected. I got all the Cincinnati stations locked solid (80s and 90s), and was able to get Dayton NBC (WDTN 2.1) locked... interestingly, it was only a strength of about 15-25, but locked solid, and had no drops or glitches for about 5 straight minutes. I tried the other Dayton digitals but got nothing, though the analog for CBS WHIO (7) was fairly clear, so I think it may be attainable. This was in exact keeping with the TVFool results; WDTN was my best Dayton station, followed by WHIO, and the rest were quite a bit worse. Both ABC and Fox were very snowy and had some lines in analog.

I then added my cheapo Radio Shack splitter amp (as I described a few weeks ago) and honestly, I don't think it added anything at all. Of course, it took the place of the F-F connector, so it was still doing the amplifying *downstream* of the splitter with the dead leg on the other side.

Anyway, I am now in the process of fishing some string to use as a pull for the long coax when it arrives in a few days. Hopefully, if I can get it all fished (ugh), I'll have results of the initial system test on Thursday or Friday.... and maybe I can get the wife to sit on the couch and give me a "better/worse" report while I move the antenna around in the attic....

Side note: as I have mentioned before, I am using my PC as the storage and the onscreen software machine, but not doing any encoding of the data on it; in other words, encoding of the video stream will occur in the HD extender, taking the computing load off the machine. Because of this, I do not need quite as "beefy" a PC, nor as "beefy" of a video card. Anyway, while setting up the HDHR, each channel that appears on the scan has a "view" button next to it. Curiosity got the best of me; I clicked "view" for an SD station. A small window opened, and there was the channel, looking great. I should have known better.... but again, that curious cat bit me, and I clicked "view" on a HD station. Heh. Instant black screen, lock-up, fuhgeddaboutit. I guess they weren't kidding when they had "minimum requirements" for your PC and video card in order to watch HD programming on the PC. :)

William Smith

03-03-08, 01:39 PM

We've verified the WCVN-DT signal is normal.

jimp2244

03-03-08, 03:58 PM

William,

I'm in Sharonville. I'll check again when I get home from work tonight.

Nitewatchman

03-03-08, 05:36 PM

I haven't noticed any problems or changes here with WCVN analog or digital signals - except one morning last week for a short period WCVN analog was down and I was getting a weak WPXK 54 Jellico, TN instead ....

Enjoyed the KY Life HD special "Lincoln, I too am a Kentuckian", Sat night BTW ....

Update: Attached below is a current screenshot(taken with digital camera) of my Sony KD34XBR960's "signal diagnostics" screen for WCVN-DT, currently --- Same as allways.

Note/explanation of "signal strength" and "AGC" reading, as they may be a bit confusing .... The bar at top labeled "signal strength" is incorrectly lableled, it's a "signal quality" reading, really (likely looking at BER/etc). Note that the SNR reading is, basically, a "different sort" of signal quality reading .....

The AGC (automatic gain control) reading is a percentage reading (%) that works like this :

more signal = lower AGC % reading - The AGC circuit adjusts a RF amplifier for less gain.

Less signal = higher AGC % reading - The AGC circuit adjusts a RF amplifier for more gain(or max gain).

terryfoster

03-03-08, 09:10 PM

Does anyone know what encoding equipment is employed at WKRC-DT (for both DT1 and DT2)? How about average bitrates for each channel?

I'm trying to help out the Grand Rapids, MI thread. They're upset with the PQ provided by WWMT-DT which has a CW subchannel. From what I've been reading WWMT-DT is broadcast on channel 2 which some are attributing to the PQ issues. I've been trying to keep reception issues (such as being on channel 2) separate from those caused by encoding and muxing. WWMT-DT has a fiber feed to a local cable company which provides a signal that is without interference, but some still complain about the PQ. Now I'm not sure if this is a perception issue or a real encoding/muxing issue, but I'm trying to help the best I can without seeing their broadcast (since nobody has posted a screen capture).

jimp2244

03-03-08, 09:52 PM

Regarding WCVN-DT, I am able to receive it fine tonight. I'm not sure what was going on. I suppose it could have been something on my end although I didn't touch the antenna and I tried not just my TV tuner but my PC tuners as well.

jimp2244

03-03-08, 10:11 PM

Does anyone know what encoding equipment is employed at WKRC-DT (for both DT1 and DT2)? How about average bitrates for each channel?I don't know specific makes and models, and there may be others who are more familiar with WKRC than I am, but here is what I know...

WKRC-DT does use stat mux, which allows them to allocate bandwidth dynamically between their two channels (12-1 and 12-2). I have seen 12-1 as low as about 8Mbps (and 12-2 as high as 8Mbps) when 12-1 is showing less "intense" content (such as an SD program during the day). I have also seen 12-1 hit 15Mbps during HD programming, such as sports. Of course that knocks 12-2 down to about 2Mbps.

This (the stat mux) is as opposed to what WLWT-DT looks like. Their bitrates are generally pretty constant, with 5-1 at about 16-17Mbps, and 5-2 at 1-2Mbps.

If it would help, I can get you some TSReader output for WKRC and WLWT to compare. I think I've posted this somewhere in the past on this thread too, so you may find it on a search. I don't think much has changed since then.

I'm trying to help out the Grand Rapids, MI thread. They're upset with the PQ provided by WWMT-DT which has a CW subchannel. From what I've been reading WWMT-DT is broadcast on channel 2 which some are attributing to the PQ issues. I've been trying to keep reception issues (such as being on channel 2) separate from those caused by encoding and muxing. WWMT-DT has a fiber feed to a local cable company which provides a signal that is without interference, but some still complain about the PQ. Now I'm not sure if this is a perception issue or a real encoding/muxing issue, but I'm trying to help the best I can without seeing their broadcast (since nobody has posted a screen capture).
The PQ issues, as you say, are completely unrelated to the channel on which WWMT-DT broadcasts (2). That said, I don't know what the numbers are on their channels, but they may very well have a legitimate claim against the PQ on the HD channel. While I'd say WKRC does a pretty good job "balancing" things between 12-1 and 12-2, I still would much rather not have 12-2 taking up the bandwidth. Watching NCAA basketball games in HD on 12-1 can be a bit frustrating, as there is a lot of macroblocking.

If WWMT does not employ stat muxing, or allocates less bandwidth to their HD channel than WKRC does, they may certainly have a gripe. If any of them are able to get TSReader output for WWMT it would give us something quantifiable to compare...

EDIT/ADDITION: For people experiencing interference issues on WWMT-DT channel 2, they may be comforted to know that WWMT-DT is moving to VHF 8 after analog shut off next February. Also, while the low-VHF channels get "more" reception complaints (WDKY-DT 4 Lexington gets reception complaints as well), I would venture to say that most issues stem from people not having the proper antenna (many use UHF-only antennas, and many people falsely think that digital channels are all on UHF), or from interference. Indoor antennas usually more prone to interference, because of all the electronic devices around. Most people seem to understand that a dish has to be outside to work properly but then won't put an OTA antenna outside!

mikemikeb

03-04-08, 04:10 PM

Does anyone know what encoding equipment is employed at WKRC-DT (for both DT1 and DT2)?WKRC-DT (12-1 and 12-2) uses Harris Flexicoder equipment.

terryfoster

03-04-08, 04:18 PM

WKRC-DT (12-1 and 12-2) uses Harris Flexicoder equipment.

Cool, thanks!

Nitewatchman

03-04-08, 08:36 PM

Have noticed the past several days or so, WPTO-DT has been running HD/SD widescreen programs(presumably off a server given the programming/schedule) on ThinkTV14 HD everytime I've checked it(presumably 24/7), not just in prime time as was the case previously ...

Like WPTD-DT recently, they're multicasting 4 SD services + 1 (1080i) HD service .... Looking at the video streams only, The HD video stream is mostly running at about 7~8Mb/s, SD video streams are running between about 2Mb/s~3.5 Mb/s each ....

jdhughes63

03-04-08, 09:07 PM

FOX 19 just dropped out of HD to SD. Cause; election return banner at the bottom of the screen. Problem; No real returns yet. Very annoying.

jim tressler

03-05-08, 12:35 AM

I think wlwt had the best hd graphics tonight...

jimp2244

03-05-08, 07:29 AM

I think wlwt had the best hd graphics tonight...

I was going to compliment them as well. I think their overall election coverage was very good, more complete and more up-to-date than the other local stations.

robmadden1

03-05-08, 02:51 PM

Why cant fox 19 put up a banner in hd like the rest of the channels not drop it to sd to do so?It gets very annoying when your watching sometyhing then all of a sudden it goes to SD from HD.

mikemikeb

03-05-08, 10:15 PM

Why cant fox 19 put up a banner in hd like the rest of the channels not drop it to sd to do so?The FOX splicer won't allow it.

jimp2244

03-06-08, 07:47 AM

Why cant fox 19 put up a banner in hd like the rest of the channels not drop it to sd to do so?It gets very annoying when your watching sometyhing then all of a sudden it goes to SD from HD.Only WCPO and WLWT have the capability to do HD graphics like this. WKRC either drops to SD (generally in the case of severe weather) or doesn't show it on the HD channel (in the case of the election results on Tuesday).

pjpjpjpj

03-06-08, 02:08 PM

JimP (and others)… well, all the speculation about my “mystery reception” (per TVFool) in Evendale can finally be put to rest – sort of. The HD extenders arrived yesterday, and I hooked everything up, and the news is good (though still a slight mystery – see below).

First of all, I replaced the wire shirt-hanger bowties on my “DB4 clone w/o reflector” with 10 ga copper wire. So that’s probably an upgrade in reception ability to begin with. I installed the antenna squarely in the middle of the attic (lots of room all around), facing (perpendicular to) approximately 240 degrees (and, I suppose, 60 degrees, since I have no reflector). I have a 15-foot coax to a splitter which hits two 3-foot coax cables into the HDHomerun, in a closet just below the attic. From there, a 100’ CAT5 carries the signal to my router. I ran the HDHomerun configuration program, and, whatever the reasons (since my previous tests, I improved the antenna build, location, and direction, and reduced coax losses), things are much better. Granted, it was a clear night last night, but I was getting almost every Cincinnati station at 100% strength and quality (only one or two were not around 100%, and they were in the high-80s). I still am getting Dayton NBC with low numbers, but, as with the last test, I did not see any dropouts, regardless of the numbers. And – the big surprise – despite TVFool numbers being bad for my attic (20-25 feet), I am now getting Dayton PBS and Dayton Fox for the first time - PBS in the mid-80s, Fox in the 70s. Here’s the mystery… despite getting PBS and Fox, I am still not getting Dayton CBS or ABC. This seems strange since the Rx for PBS appears worse than CBS (both “2Edge”) and ABC and Fox are similar (same Rx, 1Edge). There are blips of reception for both CBS and ABC on the meters, but nothing that will lock, so I may get up in the attic this weekend and try turning the antenna just another 10 degrees or so, to see if I have a chance at locking them. If not, I will survive without (or maybe try a DB8?). Unfortunately, it’s pretty clear that I won’t be getting Dayton CW in the attic – it barely registers a blip on the reception meters.

Anyway, I’m pretty happy – I was worried that the HDHomerun would have a weaker tuner than my TV, but apparently it’s the same or possibly slightly better. I’ve attached my TVFool analysis for 25 feet (approximately my attic height) again, in case you guys want to pose any suggestions for the ABC/CBS mystery.

plughplover

03-06-08, 05:03 PM

Congrats! However, I don't understand your 240/60 degrees, given the heading for Dayton (19 magnetic).

If you align the antenna for Dayton (call it 20 degrees using a compass), then the 'back side' is at 200, which should be quite adequate for the Cincy stations given their proximity.

BTW, when you take the compass up in the attic, take headings at several locations to insure it isn't being thrown off by wiring etc.

Nitewatchman

03-06-08, 07:20 PM

The FOX splicer won't allow it.

True *

* - Unless something has changed since I last heard about this from some engineers at fox affiliates - It can only handle the splicer inserted local bug, and If I recall correctly, I think it can handle EAS text warnings as well -- only the area of the frame effected by those is capable of being "reencoded" via the local splicer setup ...

In which case, a Fox HD affiliate wishing to key in such graphics (school closings info, election info/etc, local weather bugs/etc) to the HD going to air would have to add a decode/reencode process(with local encoder with the local graphics keyed in) for the HD feed from the splicer ....

Again, unless something has changed since the last I'd heard about this ....

I'd asked some of the "Fox guys" who post on AVSforum about this a little over a year ago, as I was curious, because I'd imagine at some point, most Fox affiliates are going to want to have the capability to key in such local graphics while keeping the Fox HD up ....

pjpjpjpj

03-06-08, 10:38 PM

Congrats! However, I don't understand your 240/60 degrees, given the heading for Dayton (19 magnetic).

Simple - when I was up in the attic (not an easy or comfortable task), I couldn't remember the directions for Cincinnati and Dayton, nor did I have a compass. But I had a general idea in my head of the direction that Cincinnati was coming from. In thinking about it afterwards, I am just guessing at the direction that I faced it... but, as I said, I may get the wife to help this weekend and get up there and try tweaking.

Sea Ray

03-06-08, 10:44 PM

mikeoc13

03-07-08, 09:17 AM

I've been reading this forum for quite a while, but this is my first time posting.

EngadgetHD is reporting that TWC will be rearranging its channel lineup to normalize them across its network in Ohio, including our Adelphia brethren, but the links that it provides are to TWC's Northeast Ohio webpage. Anyone know if this will affect us here in SW Ohio?

(No links for us first-timers, as of 0900 on Friday its the first story on E-HD.)

Sea Ray

03-07-08, 09:25 AM

Splicer010

03-07-08, 10:45 AM

It is about time to have the same channel allocation state/system wide...Only took 20+years to do...

pjpjpjpj

03-07-08, 12:29 PM

My apologies if this has been posted. Word is that we'll get to see Reds games in HD on FSN-Ohio on Time Warner Cable. March 25th TWC will be adding FSN-HD and National Geographic-HD in Cincinnati and Dayton. Good news for cable folks.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/03/06/fsn-ohio-hd-national-geographic-hd-coming-to-twc-cincinnati-d/

Would this potentially mean that these channels would be available on ClearQAM, unencrypted? Or is that highly-unlikely wishful thinking? :cool:

dtv insider

03-07-08, 01:00 PM

Sea Ray

03-07-08, 01:19 PM

Would this potentially mean that these channels would be available on ClearQAM, unencrypted? Or is that highly-unlikely wishful thinking? :cool:

Well, it looks like it's going right next to TNT-HD; do you get that channel on ClearQam? I don't know that cable only stations like FSN are on ClearQam. My guess is it'll be treated like the other cable only HD stations like TNT-HD, History-HD, etc.

jimp2244

03-07-08, 07:19 PM

Received my two $40 TV converter box program coupons the other day. I purchased the Zenith DTT900 from Circuit City (about $23 after coupon). I cannot find a single flaw in this DTV tuner. For anyone who is going to purchase one of these boxes for their analog sets, I highly recommend this one.

Its setup was incredibly fast and easy (fastest auto-programming I've ever seen for digital tuner). The aspect ratio features work just as they should. You tell it the aspect ratio of your TV (4:3 in my case here). HD channels are letterboxed with the option to crop, SD channels that are 4:3 fill the screen. The default aspect ratio is "set by program" which I believe uses Active Format Description (AFD) but I haven't found proper AFD data being sent to test this with yet.

Changing channels is pretty quick, guide data is good, and the "easy add" feature allows you to do additional channel scans to add new channels without removing the old ones (so you could scan once with antenna facing Cincinnati and then again facing Dayton).

From what I've read it uses the latest gen. LG tuner, which so far from my experience has been very good.

Basically this is the perfect DTV converter, with only two things to be aware of:

-It does not have s-video out, so you have to use composite or RF
-It does not pass through analog channels, so you will not be able to tune low power stations such as WOTH 25-LP, WBQC-LP 38, and WRCX-LP 40 (Dayton). Hopefully these channels will get digital transmitters soon. In the meantime you can still use your TV's built-in tuner for those stations if needed.

Sea Ray

03-07-08, 07:59 PM

Splicer010

03-07-08, 08:11 PM

I would hope it would be a better picture since the source is higher quality to begin with...

As for using the TV analog tuner goes...If you use the 75ohm connection out of the Zenith...Do you need an A-B switch to get the LP stations or will the Zenith pass through??? If I read your post correctly...The Zenith does NOT pass through and an A-B switch will be required when using the 75ohm connection...However if the composite connection is utilized then just use the TV's input selection...If I am reading your post correctly that is...

blbrodbeck

03-07-08, 10:24 PM

mikemikeb

03-07-08, 10:37 PM

I was checking out the weather page at a local DC TV station, and noticed that on a regional radar you guys were getting snow. Curiously interested, I went over to WCPO's website. Blizzard warning? Wow! I had no idea that you guys were getting socked as hard as you are. What you're experiencing (especially with the winds) reminds me of the kind of NorEasters that sock New England (but never happen seem to cause the blowing snow thing in DC). It usually takes Atlantic coastal low pressure systems to really start the winds, along with the snow, and yet it seems your storm was able to do it without the power of the Atlantic waters.

You're so lucky! A lot of people in DC have been hoping for a storm like yours (OK, maybe they can accept not having the winds, but still, we've been starved of a big snowstorm this winter). We just got rain from either your storm, or a different one that affected us. I wonder what's going on there with the weather patterns that didn't allow for a storm like that here in DC. Man, I'd love to be there right now; I'd like to think I'd have so much fun. (93% humidity? 10-15 inches of snow expected? Ohhhhhhh.....)

Any notes on how local stations are handling coverage / dropping from HD?

jimp2244

03-07-08, 11:40 PM

How does the converted digital picture compare on your analog set to the picture it receives from analog sources without the box? In other words is the digital signal converted to analog better, worse or the same as the picture you were receiving all along before digital transmission?The picture is VERY good and better than even perfect analog reception

Can you receive more stations than before?That depends on what you mean...

I would hope it would be a better picture since the source is higher quality to begin with...Yes, better picture. What's also nice is that all the subchannels look "great" because the analog TV doesn't show enough detail to see any macroblocking that you'd see on an HD set.

As for using the TV analog tuner goes...If you use the 75ohm connection out of the Zenith...Do you need an A-B switch to get the LP stations or will the Zenith pass through??? If I read your post correctly...The Zenith does NOT pass through and an A-B switch will be required when using the 75ohm connection...However if the composite connection is utilized then just use the TV's input selection...If I am reading your post correctly that is...Exactly right.

When you turn your TV off do you have to also turn off the converter box? Are there 2 power buttons on the remote? One for the TV & one for the box?Yes two power buttons on the remote. The TV power button is very easy to program.

Also my Sister is going to get one & Her boyfriend is deaf. She was wondering about the close captions. Are they easy to read? Is there a button for captions on the remote, or do you have to go to the menu? Does it have adjustable size/fonts for captions?Captions are easy to read. Yes, a button on the remote but I think that sets it per channel (incidentally aspect ratio can be set per channel as well). If you want it always on you can set that in the menu. Yes, in fact you can change size/style/font etc. for captions in the menu.

jimp2244

03-07-08, 11:45 PM

You're so lucky! A lot of people in DC have been hoping for a storm like yours (OK, maybe they can accept not having the winds, but still, we've been starved of a big snowstorm this winter). We just got rain from either your storm, or a different one that affected us. I wonder what's going on there with the weather patterns that didn't allow for a storm like that here in DC. Man, I'd love to be there right now; I'd like to think I'd have so much fun. (93% humidity? 10-15 inches of snow expected? Ohhhhhhh.....)This thing is just sitting on us and not moving... Additional moisture and cool air keep fueling the system and it's continuing to drop more snow. Very windy right now.

Any notes on how local stations are handling coverage / dropping from HD?WLWT-DT, WCPO-DT, and WHIO-DT are all keeping HD and using HD graphic overlays for school closings and delays. The other stations are not able to do this. WKRC has mostly been keeping the HD feed clean and just having the closings on the analog. The others are generally dropping to SD from what I can tell...

jimp2244

03-07-08, 11:48 PM

I seem to recall (possibly incorrectly?) that WSTR-DT used to have "grey" pillar bars. I believe this didn't last long and it changed quite a while ago. However I've recently started to notice that the pillar bars have generally been "lighter" (not completely black). Sometimes they will even change brightness (usually by getting brighter for a short period when switching from commercial to commercial of commercial to show or show to commercial, etc.

Splicer010

03-08-08, 12:06 AM

Sea Ray

03-08-08, 11:45 AM

Can you receive more stations than before?

That depends on what you mean...

I mean can you now possibly receive stations in Dayton, Columbus, Louisville etc that you couldn't receive before?

Do you have an indoor or outdoor antenna?

Sea Ray

03-08-08, 11:49 AM

pjpjpjpj

03-08-08, 12:02 PM

jimp2244

03-08-08, 01:06 PM

Jim - a crazy idea crossed my mind. My mother-in-law has an old TV that has *only* a single coax antenna input.

Assuming you have to set your TV to channel 3 for the converter box, what would happen if you put a splitter on the antenna line, ran one side to the STB, and the other side was just a short "bypass" piece of coax, and then used a combiner to rejoin the "out" of the STB back with the "bypass", and had that single "in" to the TV? If it would work, you would watch your STB on channel 3, and then could turn to channel 38 and get the "bypass" of the LP analog coming through.

With what tiny, tiny bit of knowledge I have gained in the last few months reading all of these forums, I don't see any reason why this would not work...

Obviously, a downside would be the splitter giving you antenna loss, but I'm ignoring that here. ;)

P.S. I'm loving the snow myself. :)I can't explain exactly "why" this doesn't work like you'd think it should, but unfortunately when I tested it just now it had two problems. First, the output from the DTV converter box showed interference (lines/dots). I tried both channel 3 and channel 4 and both had simliar results. I can receive WAVE 3 analog here but without the splitter/combiners it doesn't cause me any issues when the DTV converter is on channel 3. Second, reception of several digital channels dropped below threshold needed to maintain solid reception. If the low power analog stations are important for you, I would recommend either a DTV converter that has analog pass-through (these exist and are marked on the list you receive with the coupons) or use an A-B switch to keep the feeds separate. In cases where the TV has composite in then you can use Splicer's suggestion which should work very well.

jimp2244

03-08-08, 01:14 PM

I mean can you now possibly receive stations in Dayton, Columbus, Louisville etc that you couldn't receive before?

Do you have an indoor or outdoor antenna?I have an medium sized outdoor UHF/VHF combo antenna with rotor on the roof. I've never had any issues receiving any of the Dayton or Cincinnati stations with this set up, so this box doesn't really pull in anything I'm not used to seeing. That said, it does do a really good job of rejecting multipath, and deals well with weaker signals as well. WBDT-DT is the hardest to receive from here, but this tuner is able to receive it fine from an upstairs bedroom that goes through many more feet of coax and additional splitters/couplers than the DLP TV downstairs.

I may try this tuner for a bit of DX when there are some good conditions, but I don't expect any tuner to receive Columbus or Louisville with any sort of regularity... I am just too far outside their coverage area except for when conditions are just right.

Also, just in case it was not clear to anyone, this tuner does NOT output HD. It receives and displays all of the digital channels, including the ones broadcast in HD, but outputs everything in 480i. This is a DTV converter that is needed for any analog set to receive OTA TV after next February when the analog channels are turned off.

pjpjpjpj

03-08-08, 09:27 PM

pjpjpjpj

03-08-08, 09:38 PM

Here’s the mystery… despite getting Dayton PBS and Fox, I am still not getting Dayton CBS or ABC. This seems strange since the Rx for PBS appears worse than CBS (both “2Edge”), and ABC and Fox are similar (same Rx, 1Edge). There are blips of reception for both CBS and ABC on the meters, but nothing that will lock...

Following up on this post from earlier in the week, I discovered tonight that, apparently with the help of the weather, I am now getting Dayton ABC (22.1). My signal strength and quality are between 35% and 50%, but my "symbol quality" is solidly at 100%, so, just as with NBC 2.1, it's locked and clean.

Can snow - the meteorological kind - on the ground actually help signal transmission - I dunno, being a better reflector than, say, grass? :confused::rolleyes: Maybe I have a clearer signal path due to some well-placed snow-felled trees.... :cool:

jimp2244

03-08-08, 10:57 PM

Can snow - the meteorological kind - on the ground actually help signal transmission - I dunno, being a better reflector than, say, grass? :confused::rolleyes: Maybe I have a clearer signal path due to some well-placed snow-felled trees.... :cool:Conditions in the atmosphere are generally what affect propagation the most. A clear, cold, dry day would actually be most likely not good for receiving distant stations via tropo. When a front is moving through (which may bring along with it rain or snow) you may see stations via tropo that you wouldn't normally see.

This map (http://www.mountainlake.k12.mn.us/ham/aprs/path.cgi?map=na) shows real-time VHF propagation. VHF and UHF are different, and even individual channels may have differnet results at any given time, but the map does help give a general indicator of how conditions are.

Looking at that map right now there is a bit of a "yellow splotch" over the Cincinnati/Dayton area, indicating paths of up to about 155 miles. Of course that doesn't mean that you will be able to receive stations that far away.

Nitewatchman

03-09-08, 07:10 PM

Anyone around here using HTPC software which uses Zap2It for the program guide?

Not regularly, but I had used it with GBPVR for a time last summer. I was actually quite impressed with it, as, It was the only internet based EPG info I had used which had, pretty much full listings for all the SD multicast services from stations in the area.

ThoraX695

03-09-08, 09:20 PM

Can snow - the meteorological kind - on the ground actually help signal transmission - I dunno, being a better reflector than, say, grass? :confused::rolleyes: Maybe I have a clearer signal path due to some well-placed snow-felled trees.... :cool:

Just on a whim, I pointed my attic antenna towards Dayton, got a lock on WGRT (digital channel 30), and saw a few minutes of "King of the Hill" before losing it. I've never been able to get a lock on it before tonight. Maybe I got lucky though. :D

In fact, I haven't been able to pick up any of the Dayton stations from my location until I hacked my Channel Master 4228. I replaced the cross-feed line with two baluns and a splitter. This was suggested by the author of HDTV Primer (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html). We'll see how it handles once the leaves get back on the trees, since I'm behind a large hill when facing the Dayton antenna farm.

DaveA28

03-09-08, 10:01 PM

Anyone around here using HTPC software which uses Zap2It for the program guide?

I noticed today that the listings for WPTO "Prime" 14.3 are wrong - they are shown as exactly the same as WPTO 14.2.

Just curious if anyone else noticed this, and if there is anything that can be done about it (since I'm new to this whole thing, I have not dealt with this before). Does Zap2It make mistakes like this often?

I run MythTV on a linux machine. It used to use Zap2it until they decided to withdraw their free service. A new org called schedules direct formed and licenses the data from zap2it/Tribune. This is the primary listing service for US MythTV users now.

I'm getting lineups for my TWcable service, which only includes the main WPTO channel on the analog channels. They seem to be pretty accurate. I did notice last nite it said SNL was a rerun, but it did list the correct host and I'm pretty sure it was a new show (I didnt watch it yet).

pjpjpjpj

03-10-08, 08:25 AM

I run MythTV on a linux machine. It used to use Zap2it until they decided to withdraw their free service. A new org called schedules direct formed and licenses the data from zap2it/Tribune. This is the primary listing service for US MythTV users now.

I'm getting lineups for my TWcable service, which only includes the main WPTO channel on the analog channels. They seem to be pretty accurate. I did notice last nite it said SNL was a rerun, but it did list the correct host and I'm pretty sure it was a new show (I didnt watch it yet).

I'm running SageTV and they get their info from Zap2It (free, somehow). I went to Zap2It's website to see why my listings were wrong (I thought it was my channel assignments) and I saw that they actually had the same programming listed for 14.2 and 14.3. While I was relieved that it wasn't a glitch on my end, it sorta bugged me that I am getting bad info. I'll have to check again - maybe it was just for a day.

jimp2244

03-10-08, 08:32 AM

I'm running SageTV and they get their info from Zap2It (free, somehow). I went to Zap2It's website to see why my listings were wrong (I thought it was my channel assignments) and I saw that they actually had the same programming listed for 14.2 and 14.3. While I was relieved that it wasn't a glitch on my end, it sorta bugged me that I am getting bad info. I'll have to check again - maybe it was just for a day.When checking last night, I noticed that BeyondTV's listings have almost the same programming listed for 14-2 and 14-3... but a few blocks were different. My guess is that ThinkTV isn't properly sending their listings.

Speaking of ThinkTV I notice many audio/video sync issues (mouths not moving just right to the sound of the words) on WPTO-DT and WPTD-DT channels.

pjpjpjpj

03-10-08, 10:12 AM

Speaking of ThinkTV I notice many audio/video sync issues (mouths not moving just right to the sound of the words) on WPTO-DT and WPTD-DT channels.

Good! I thought it was my SageTV. :)

I mean, you know, it's not good that they are having problems... but better them than me... ;)

robmadden1

03-11-08, 08:53 AM

I got new channels showing up when I scaned for digital channels 34.3 and 34.4 I have never got these before. Ally they are saying is no broadcast now on both channels.

blbrodbeck

03-11-08, 10:23 AM

I got new channels showing up when I scaned for digital channels 34.3 and 34.4 I have never got these before. Ally they are saying is no broadcast now on both channels.

Those are coming from WCET. I believe they will be adding a channel or two (to broadcast) this year. They're going to bring back WCET-Learn, & probably a Kids channel. Maybe they were doing some testing for those channels.

pjpjpjpj

03-11-08, 10:51 AM

Those are coming from WCET. I believe they will be adding a channel or two (to broadcast) this year. They're going to bring back WCET-Learn, & probably a Kids channel. Maybe they were doing some testing for those channels.

Any idea of a timeline on that? My wife will be very pleased. I assume, worst case, it will be by the digital changeover next February....

jimp2244

03-11-08, 11:00 AM

They're going to bring back WCET-Learn, & probably a Kids channel. They are? I thought their plan was to not bring them back, and have them available on cable...

blbrodbeck

03-11-08, 11:31 AM

Any idea of a timeline on that? My wife will be very pleased. I assume, worst case, it will be by the digital changeover next February....

I read that WCET-CREATE (Not Learn) would be back by the end of this year on broadcast. I'm not really sure about the Kids channel though.

blbrodbeck

03-11-08, 11:47 AM

Here's a link to the story that says WCET-CREATE will be available over the air (again) in 2008.

https://www.cetconnect.org/pressroom/articledisplay.asp?ID=83

It's at the end of the 3rd paragraph.

robmadden1

03-11-08, 01:08 PM

The site says nothing about 34.3 or 34.4. It says 34.1 is CET hd and 34.2 is world and I don't get those all I get is 34.3 and 34.4.

jimp2244

03-11-08, 01:25 PM

The site says nothing about 34.3 or 34.4. It says 34.1 is CET hd and 34.2 is world and I don't get those all I get is 34.3 and 34.4.34-3 and 34-4 are the actual program streams. They re-map to 48-1 and 48-2 on your TV. See attached image.

Nitewatchman

03-11-08, 04:00 PM

^ yes, and 34-3/34-4 is what you see from WCET-DT w/o PSIP Virtual channel mapping, or if you did a scan during a short period when/if WCET-DT was having issues with their PSIP, Of if WCET-DT signal was detected during the scan, but due to reception issues on the user end(such as occuring during the scan), the PSIP wasn't decoded. I'd guess Most likely case would involve the latter, especially if all that is seen is a "blank screen" .....

Update: Note that 34.1+34.2 were "orginally" the program streams from WCET, but the reason they are now on 34.3/34.4 likely involves FCC rules which went into effect in early 2005 which require stations "first" program stream to use PID (packet identifier) addresses at hex 30 or higher. It's complicated, but basically, while a PMT(TS program map table) PID could be at 0x0030 for the "first" program with the program number still be "1" -- as I understand it, because of equipment/setup/etc. specific issues at the station, you'll often see "3" as the "first" program number(and a PMT PID for that program at 0x0030), such as 34.3 for WCET's 1080i service, which usually "remaps" on most equipment via PSIP VCT to 48.1, and is what they are referring to as "34.1" on the website ....

Update: for instance, while many stations have program #3 and PMT PID 0x0030 for their "first" program stream, Check out TSreader info(attached) for WLWT-DT ... Program #1 is PMT PID at 0x0050 ....

---------------------

Anyway, speaking of WCET-DT, caught their Local HD production "Sacred Spaces" last night .... Really enjoyed it, VERY nicely done, they even managed to add the recent fire at St. George ....

William Smith

03-11-08, 06:47 PM

I need a favor,

Anyone have reception issues with WCVN-DT on Saturday night?

If so I need location details and times if possible by PM.

Thanks
William

JGP32

03-14-08, 04:20 PM

pjpjpjpj

03-14-08, 09:30 PM

Hi
I have various HDTV reception and DVR problems with my media center PC. I have an ATI Theater 650 TV card and am running vista media center. The first issue to resolve is I am not getting a signal for WKRC. I live in Anderson area and am using an indoor channel master 4030 amplified rabbit ears. When I setup media center about 3 months ago, Im pretty sure It came in fine. I get the other stations fine, with strong signal strength indicated in media center. WKRC only shows one red bar in media center. Im very new to antenna issues and have been reading this thread today. Any ideas on what could have happened?
Im new to this thread, and must say WOW, the information is overwhelming.
I am far from an expert but my first guess would be that, living in Anderson, an amplified antenna might be too much - that the amp is actually boosting so much noise along with signal that it's preventing you from getting reception. Have you tried with a non-amplified antenna?

Following that, have you done the check of your address on tvfool.com? If you have strong, line-of-sight reception, you are probably overkilling it with the amplified antenna.

My other thought, without having checked tonight, is that WKRC has had problems in the past with their transmitters, so maybe it's not you. Anyone checked on that?

P.S. Is it weird that checking tvfool data is my new "curious hobby"? :o I'm finding myself putting in friend's addresses from our address book, and even asking co-workers at lunch for the addresses to enter, just to see how reception is in various parts of town. It's so hilly here that you get completely unexpected results most of the time.....

JGP32

03-15-08, 10:29 AM

Thanks
I unplugged the antenna and the signal strength drops about one bar on most channels and it has no effect on WKRC which remains at 1 red bar and no reception.

I have done TVfool with my address and it shows LOS with green for all the local network stations. I dont understand why I get the other networks so strongly and not WKRC. Could it be a vista media center problem I wonder.

Can anyone confirm that WKRC has been transmitting the last few days?

JGP32

03-15-08, 11:28 AM

I was searching the greenbutton.com and found the solution to my problem. The database that media center uses for the channel information was using the frequency information for WKRC after the transition next february (12), not the current frequency (31). The link below explains the problem and how to fix it. I followed it and WKRC works just fine.

http://thenears.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/troubleshooting-atsc-issues-in-mce/

JGP32

03-15-08, 11:53 AM

Now that I solved the WKRC issue, I want to post on another issue that maybe someone here has some experience with. Since I received the PC in Nov, its a Dell XPS 420, Q6600, 4gb ram, Nvidia 8600gts, ATI Theater 650 TV, I have had a stuttering problem that drives me crazy, where the video/audio will stutter for a second or so and then continue. I have read AVS and greenbutton. Done all sorts of various modifications to the computer. The only one that appeared to help was turning on advanced disk management for the hard drives. This made the problem about 90% better. Now I see the stutter about 3-8 times in a one hour show. Just yesterday in messing around with the antenna, I noticed the stutter occur as I was near/touching the antenna. It looked the same as during playback of HDTV recordings. Last night, I recorded a half hour show in HD on Fox. I watched it live, and saw one stutter. I then watched the recording and saw one stutter in the same place. So, my newest thought is that the stutter might be related to marginal reception/dropouts during recording, even though vista media strength indicator shows a full strength signal for fox. As indicated before, I am using a channel master indoor amplified rabbit ears 4030. Any thoughts on this from the experience of members in the area?
I would be very thankful since I have been dealing with this annoying issue for almost 4 months.

Nitewatchman

03-16-08, 08:13 PM

My other thought, without having checked tonight, is that WKRC has had problems in the past with their transmitters

Note That sort of thing is actually usually quite rare, at least so far that's been the case. In fact, the issue WKRC-DT had with their exciter a while back is the first "significantly noticable" problem issue they've had effecting their transmission I can recall occuring over the past 6 1/2 years I've been watching them .... And, they had that fixed in a few days time.

Also, if stations are off air/having problems/etc, other than for very short periods(such as for maintenance), or as "regularly scheduled"(such as WCET-DT in the wee hours of morning 1/2 the nights of the week) , it's extremely likely someone will soon post about it here ....

-----------------------------------------------

So, my newest thought is that the stutter might be related to marginal reception/dropouts

Probably.

I am using a channel master indoor amplified rabbit ears 4030.

Looked that up, It has VHF "rabbit ears", and a UHF full wave loop. While these sorts of simple antennas are often quite effective, they do not offer much directivity. Directivity is often important for antennas even when you are in a "strong signal area" when you are dealing with problem issues such as multipath uncorrectable by receiver.

Any thoughts on this from the experience of members in the area?

In addition to pjpjpjpj's excellent suggestions about the amp+tvfool regarding your "overall" reception, I would suggest you might want to check out the info here, as well as some of the links provided in this thread to other sites with antenna related info :

AVSforum OTA Digital Television reception FAQ (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=611957)

#11 in the FAQ explains one potential cause of your issue.

Adjusting your current antenna/placing it in a "better spot" for reception may do wonders(such as in some cases near a window facing the towers/in the attic away from any nearby objects which may "effect" reception(such as you when you go near it/walk by it/etc). Note that often, the best, most effective solution to acheiving reliable reception is often using a directional antenna of conventional design, aimed properly towards the stations you want to receive and mount it outdoors+away from any nearby objects (at rooftop levels for instance) ....

But, there are Lots of possible options "in between" those two options that might work for you as well, there is no way to say exactly what will work "well enough" and what won't in any particular circumstance, as there are MANY many factors which can effect OTA reception ... But, Using antenna with better directivity(indoors), is one possibility which might help .... For UHF, for instance, the "Silver sensor" (uses a LPDA = Log periodic design) is one popular antenna which offers better directivity than a UHF loop .... It is generally a good idea to use a VHF+UHF antenna setup in our area(as we have Cincinnati stations on VHF and UHF) rather than a UHF only antenna such as silver sensor .... Terk HDTVi/HDTVa is one which uses a UHF LPDA + VHF "rabbit ears" , but you could also use a VHF/UHF joiner (such as CM #049) to combine the VHF section of your current antenna(assuming it's working OK) with a seperate UHF antenna ....

IMO, it's usually best to improve the antenna "side" of things if possible, but If uncorrectable Multipath is the issue, some of the newest receivers out there (such as using LG's 6th generation chipset) may offer better performance in that regard than the ATI theatre 650 ... difficult to find any direct "evidence" or comparisions to support that assumption however ....

spikor

03-16-08, 08:41 PM

I currently have a CM 3671 with one prong broken off. I will be taking down it and the Tower to move it in order to put in a Double wide. Hopefully I can get the CM 3671 without tearing it up. When I put the Tower back up I am going to put about 4 ft. into the ground with 3x3x3 or wider and deeper concrete and Hinge it so any future repairs can be made easily lay it down and put it back up. Using alot of Guy wires and U clamp it to a long stout thick walled pole in several places to make it more reinforced in case the wind picks up. I am going to go up about 20 feet higher because i got 2 more pieces of tower to put in. This will give me more clearance. But should I go with the 3671 or another 3671 incase the one I have now missing one prong gets torn up when I try to lower it. The prong thet is missing is the left front prong behind the UHF part. Will this be a factor in Ch 9 and 10 HD (9.1/9.2) being so hard to pull in. Ch9 10 HD is the finikey (hardest) to pull in of all of the Cincy Channels 12 (31) 5 (35) 19 (29) and 28 seem to come in better anytime than Ch 9 (10) 64 (34) is harder to pull in than Ch 9 (10) tho maybe due to power or wattage. OR should I go with a CM 4242 it is 7 Inches longer (180 Inches ) vs 173 Inches of the CM3671 or should i go with an Antenna Craft HD 1850 180 Inches with 84 Elements. OF course I am pulling the Cincy Stations from a great distance I am 3 Miles into Lewis County Ky. (Tollesboro) Any help will be appreciated.

pjpjpjpj

03-17-08, 11:36 AM

Nitewatchman, jimp, and plughplover: I tried a lot of “fun” stuff this weekend with my antenna set-up (had a friend willing to be a guinea pig and sit at the computer with a walkie-talkie, giving me reception updates as I fiddled around with it). I used the HDHomerun software, which gives readings of signal strength, signal quality, and symbol quality.

I had a 4-bay “DB4 clone with no reflector” (call this #1) up there, facing about 15/205 (recall that even though Dayton towers are at 9 degrees for me, the entire north wall of my attic is aluminum-faced insulation so I turned it a bit farther NE to aim “just past” the wall). I was getting Cincinnati pretty well (between 85% and 100% on just about everything), and getting Dayton NBC, Fox, and spotty ABC. So my first attempt was to just move it around a bit. Turns out, moving it about 5 feet to the right gave me improved ABC reception and (finally – dah dah DAAAAH!!!) got me CBS, in about the low-70s quality range. But I am still not even close on The CW…. So that became the next challenge.

I had another DB4 clone that I made, with a reflector (call this #2) and I tried replacing #1 with it. Well, results were about as expected – slightly better on all the Dayton stations, but, unfortunately, I dropped off significantly on WPTO (14) and WSTR (64), and basically lost WCVN (54). I also had a little inconsistency with WCET (48). While I had hoped all of the Cincinnati stations would remain strong enough to "power through" the reflector, I had sorta feared this. Not willing to live with losing those stations, so I moved on…

Next, I joined the two antennas with a splitter, and mounted them back to back – the #2 with reflector facing Dayton, and #1 behind it, “facing” Cincinnati (though it’s really omnidirectional, it did have the #2 reflector behind it since they were back-to-back). Results as expected – everything dropped a bit (likely cable losses and multipath issues). Not worth it. Next, I put them side-by-side, effectively making a DB8 but with one half of it having a reflector. Interesting results… A few Cincinnati stations actually locked at 100% across-the-board on all three readings, which was a first-ever thing. But, unfortunately, Dayton reception didn’t improve much at all, and I still had issues with 14, 48, and 64, and, out of the blue, I had issues with Channel 12 (31). And still no improvement on Dayton CW.

After that, I tried a few wacky things that I did not expect to work too well – I left #2 facing Dayton, and started moving #1 around the attic, as much as 15’ away from #2, still connected via the splitter. It didn’t change much – in fact, at times, I almost completely lost several normally-strong Cincinnati stations. I suppose a better test would have been for #1 to have also had a reflector, making it directional toward Cincinnati, since I was no doubt getting multipath issues through the omnidirectional #1.

Anyway… after all of that, I ended up putting back #1 by itself (as I started), but in that “better” location, where I now get Dayton CBS. I think I may take the reflector off of #2 and try a "DB8, no reflector" arrangement. Then, next up… I’ve been reading the Lumenlab stuff about the Hoverman and the new “Gray-Hoverman”, and I think I will try one of those. They appear to have great directional reception with a screen reflector, but if you use the original “reflector rod” design, it appears that they have significant backside pick-up as well (though no one seems to have tested whether this causes multipath issues). So I figure I will aim it towards Dayton, and hope the broad backside will grab Cincinnati. Hey, I have some scrap Romex laying around – why not? :)

Trip in VA

03-17-08, 11:51 AM

After that, I tried a few wacky things that I did not expect to work too well – I left #2 facing Dayton, and started moving #1 around the attic, as much as 15’ away from #2, still connected via the splitter. It didn’t change much – in fact, at times, I almost completely lost several normally-strong Cincinnati stations. I suppose a better test would have been for #1 to have also had a reflector, making it directional toward Cincinnati, since I was no doubt getting multipath issues through the omnidirectional #1.

While a little off-subject, you stumbled on a little quirk of reception. It turns out that if you have two antennas, positioned a certain way and a certain distance away, you can "null out" local signals.

http://www.dxfm.com/Content/tools.htm

It's about a quarter of the way down the page. Since the link off that site is dead, here's the Google Cached version, if you're interested.

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:hLiIKEZ_vWcJ:pages.cthome.net/fmdx/phase.htm+http://pages.cthome.net/fmdx/phase.html&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

Basically, you have two antennas positioned such that the signal of the station you're nulling is exactly 180 degrees out of phase, thus canceling out the powerful local signal. This allows weaker signals on the same frequency to come through.

One day, I intend to try something like this, but since I live in the middle of nowhere anyway, it doesn't make too much difference to me I don't think.

- Trip

pjpjpjpj

03-17-08, 01:26 PM

While a little off-subject, you stumbled on a little quirk of reception. It turns out that if you have two antennas, positioned a certain way and a certain distance away, you can "null out" local signals.

Yeah, that's why I wasn't expecting much :)

But no matter what all the experiments and tests show, a lot of the antenna stuff is mysterious and magical - you know, there's no way to tell what buildings, trees, geographical/topographical features, etc., that signals might be bouncing off of - so while all the data in the world on a computer might give you a decent idea of your reception, nothing beats plain old trial-and-error.

JGP32

03-17-08, 02:37 PM

jimp2244

03-17-08, 03:22 PM

nitewatchman and pjpjpjpj - thanks for the responses.
Based on those and on playing with the antenna a bit more, I am becoming more convinced that the remainder of my stutter problem is antenna related and not PC related. I observe stutter on ABC and Fox, so I will need not only a directional UHF but VHF somewhat better than rabbit ears at TV height. Im thinking of getting the Channel Master CM4228 that has received much attention here, since it appears to be great for UHF and adequate for VHF and it seems pretty inexpensive (Ive seen it online for about $77 delivered). Anyone know of a local cincinnati retailer that has them instock? Any other thoughts?
thanks againCM4228 is a good antenna, but you may want to take a look at how large it is (and heavy) if you haven't already done so. Are you trying to get Dayton channels as well? If you are just looking for Cincinnati channels, CM4228 is most likely more than you need. The most important thing in your situation is probably just getting the antenna outside/above the roof. A traditional VHF/UHF combo antenna would be a good choice, especially keeping in mind that WCPO-DT broadcasts on VHF 10 and WKRC-DT will be on VHF 12 after they turn their analog off.

You didn't mention where exactly you were planning on putting the CM4228, and that will definitely make a difference. If your goal is Dayton channels as well (can be useful for extra sports content and also DaytonCW HD from WBDT-DT which we don't have in Cincinnati (CinCW is SD only)), then the situation would be different, but as I said I think a VHF/UHF combo for you in your location would most likely be best for reception of Cincinnati stations.

pjpjpjpj

03-17-08, 04:55 PM

And, JGP32, along with what Jim said, if you are in fact planning on putting it in an attic, I would recommend making your own, rather than buying one. You probably have most of the stuff laying around the house, or, if not, could get it at Home Depot for less than $10 total.

I made mine.... and not only does it work great, but you get that "I did it myself" pride every time you turn on your TV and see that perfect picture. ;)

If you are interested, start here, and read on:
http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9613
(note that the original post had some errors which later posts corrected, so read a few pages, minimum).

P.S. I only say "Do it yourself if it is going in the attic" because of the "ugly factor", or "WAF" (wife approval factor). If you don't mind how it looks, you can just as well make an outdoor DIY one too. :)

Nitewatchman

03-17-08, 09:36 PM

Ch9 10 HD is the finikey (hardest) to pull in of all of the Cincy Channels

WCPO-DT will be installing a new Transmit antenna after analog shut off, which also involves moving transmit antenna from a side mount position on their tower to a top mount position on the tower, which is 108 Feet higher. Their current plan per the form 387 they sent to FCC is to have that done by June 2009 or so ....

That increase in their antenna height may help you out a bit at your distance.

64 (34) is harder to pull in than Ch 9

Not sure if you are refering to WCET-DT (34 - remaps to 48.x) or WSTR-DT (33 - remaps to 64.1) ...

In any case, WSTR-DT is a few miles farther from you than the others+with directional transmit antenna which has quite a null in your direction. WCET-DT also uses a directional transmit antenna which has quite a null in your direction.

It would probably be interesting to see the signal predictions for your location(I show tollesboro as being about 62~67 miles from Cincinnati stations) including from the tvfool post-transistion database, especially for WCPO-DT) from www.tvfool.com ...

OR should I go with a CM 4242 it is 7 Inches longer (180 Inches ) vs 173 Inches of the CM3671 or should i go with an Antenna Craft HD 1850 180 Inches with 84 Elements. OF course I am pulling the Cincy Stations from a great distance I am 3 Miles into Lewis County Ky.

The performance specs on all 3 of those antennas look quite similiar :

http://www.antennacraft.net/pdfs/HD1850.pdf

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/CM3671.html

http://www.solidsignal.com/channelmaster_antenna_chart.asp

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4242.html

All but the Hdtvprimer links are manufactuer's specs (and they don't specify whether the gain figures are dBd or dBi), and hdtvprimer doesn't test the Antennacraft 1850 at all, or CM4242 on VHF, It's tough to say but all in all it looks like the CM3671 is probably the "top dog" out of those 3 ....

---------------------------

This is based on manufacturer's specs only, but Winegard HD8200P (or the newer model HD8200U according to solid signal) *might* offer a bit better performance than CM3671, and winegard antennas are generally well known for their build quality :

http://www.starkelectronic.com/whd8200.htm

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=HD8200P

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=HD8200U

Update: BTW, There's some good discussion of CM3671 and HD8200P here (and a report from one fellow who tried both and found the HD8200p to perform a little better for him, in his specific circumstances) :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=752112

Nitewatchman

03-17-08, 11:41 PM

Received my two $40 TV converter box program coupons the other day. I purchased the Zenith DTT900 from Circuit City ....

Received my coupons late last week, and Picked up 2 Zenith DTT900's from HHGreg today ... I had considered maybe trying out one of the others, such as Sansonic FT300A (which reportedly uses a double-conversion tuner ), but given that I haven't seen any reports on it's performance (or how/if it works to manually tune to RF channel #'s/etc) yet + that most reports on the Zenith/Insigna were quite favorable/etc/etc, decided to go with the Zenith Box .......

On it's 'signal meter" I am wondering what the "broken" tones vs. the steady tone indicates?

Anyway --- Tried a little Side by side comparision with Zenith HDV420 - 4th Generation LG chipset (HDV420 so far sensitivity+selectivity wise has seemingly worked as well or better than anything else I have tried) and with weak signal from WDKY-DT 4 Lexington, KY(118 Miles to my South, same direction as Cincinnati for me, more or less) tonight. ------ I would estimate The HDV420 has only acheived a lock on WDKY-DT 5~10% of the time the DTT900 has locked and decoded them, which much of the time between 7~10pm or so was often continious/perfect reception of WDKY-DT on the DTT900 .... WDKY-DT is the only "non-local" that has locked tonight when i've been looking+had the antenna aimed "properly" towards the stations involved, and I don't yet have a good "feel" for the DTT900's signal meter yet, but I think WUPX-DT 21 Morehead, WSYX-DT 13, WTTE-DT 36, and WBNS-DT 21 Columbus have all (apparently) gotten close to locking on the DTT900 with readings often "hanging out" around a 33% reading or so from those stations, but no dice so far ...

Anyway, I am pleasantly surprised by the WDKY-DT comparison tonight and am looking forward to testing it with more weak signals(other than just on lo-VHF) via DX when conditions allow ...

The DTT900's handling of multipath seems quite impressive, including compared to my Zenith HDV420 (4th generation LG chipset), Hisense DB-2010(ATI chipset I believe), and the internal receiver in Sony KD34XBR960 HDTV(I think it uses a ATI chipset but not sure), perhaps a bit better than * - hauppauge WinTV-HVR1600 PCI card, and, from the limited tests I've done with them, seemingly quite similar to the multipath performance of the ATSC receivers in 2 Manavox+Phillips DVD/HDD recorders I picked up around Christmastime.

I tested the DTT900 with a TV in the laundry room with a "simple" indoor UHF folded dipole+ VHF Rabbit ears - (VHF/UHF joiner is used) --- And was able to nicely decode 9 of the 15 Dayton/Cincinnati area stations. For the most part, I don't think The specifics of the stations involved that did/did not decode are of much significance, except to note that I've done this same test in this "poor receiving location" with Zenith HDV420 and Hisense DB2010 on previous occasions, and at best ONLY either WRGT-DT or WDTN-DT would decode, at worst NOTHING would decode .... Given the generally poor analog reception involved with the indoor antenna setup+placement involved (several walls providing attenuation, indoor antenna, various sorts of interference present caused by various household applicances not to mention things such as nearby washers and dryers likely effecting things where I have the TV/antenna on a shelf, there's really little "room" to move around/adjust antenna for "better" results), I was quite impressed with the DTT900's performance with this IMO, very "harsh" test .....

* - By the way, I've noticed the Hauppauge HVR1600's front end(for the ATSC side as it has a seperate NTSC tuner as well in a seperate "tin can" on the card with seperate RF input) is apparently worse selectivity wise in at least some cases vs. any of my other receivers -- such as involving "circumstances" such as WKON-DT 44 being sandwiched between blow torch ANALOG signals WKOI 43/WRGT 45 "next door" (even with WRGT coming in off back side of antenna), and WDKY-DT 4/WLWT 5(in same direction -- but note there is a 4MHZ "gap" between ch 4+ 5), WBNS-DT 21 Columbus with WKEF 22 in nearly same direction/etc/etc ... But, sensitivity wise, the HVR1600's performance seems quite similar to my Zenith HDV420 in some "side by side" comparsions between those two, although in some cases it(Hauppauge) might turn out to be worse ... With all the blow torch locals here, it's a little hard to tell when a weak signal decoding on the HDV420 but not "quite yet" on the HVR1600 is a "selectivity"/front end issue vs. the sensitivity being slightly better with the HDV420 .... But, for instance, when WSYX-DT 13 Columbus Locks on the HDV420, it's pretty much locked via the Hauppauge as well ...

Trip in VA

03-18-08, 01:18 AM

On it's 'signal meter" I am wondering what the "broken" tones vs. the steady tone indicates?

Signal. When it's a solid tone, you've maxed out the signal. It beeps faster and faster the more signal you have. No signal results in no sound. Set a walkie-talkie up next to your TV and fiddle with the antenna elsewhere without having to look at it. =)

- Trip

Nitewatchman

03-18-08, 01:48 AM

Trip,

But It appears to only sound any sort of ""tone" if threshold of reception(or better) is achieved .... which may not solely involve "signal strength" - There is actually RF signal present for instance, which could even be a very strong signal if the receiver can't correct for multipath or if there is interference/etc. present such that the ~15~16db S/N threshold for decoding DTV isn't acheived, regardless of how "strong" the signal actually is ...

If it is actually a measurement of the RF signal's strength (vs. involving SNR/ or in basic terms a "signal quality meter" of sorts that is much along the lines of a "little bit different" audible representation of the visable "bar" meter) I wonder what is signal strength (dBm/etc) at receiver input when the tone turns steady ? If it is more of a "signal quality" indication, then SNR apparently must have to be awfully high (from what I can tell/guess probably fairly close to what it would be as measured at transmitter) before it turns into the "solid tone" ....

Trip in VA

03-18-08, 02:01 AM

Nitewatchman

03-18-08, 04:05 AM

I don't live in a multipath prone area (hilltop in the middle of nowhere), so I was just going by my observations. The signals that maxed out the meter had a solid tone, while those that aren't decoding had none. Those that were in the mid-range or were otherwise breaking up beeped faster and faster as signal improved.

- Trip

Yes, in my situation from what I've observed(err, "heard" lol) so far, it seems to me that the audible indicator (beeps slower/farther apart with "worse" signal vs. beeps faster+then steady as any usuable portion of signals get "better") has more "steps" to it than what is apparent with the visable "bar type" meter ... I didn't attention to it with the tests I did with indoor antenna with the "laundry room" TV, but using my outdoor antenna setup used with other TV's, For instance, I get steady tone from pretty much all the locals (with antenna properly aimed) with Meter "maxed out" (or close to it), but if I misaim the antenna enough to get the broken tones from the locals (farther apart "slower" the more I misaim it), the visable meter still (mostly, unless I misaim it "enough") is very high and doesn't change much ...

Why I was asking about it is, in my situation at least (so far what little time I've spent with it), and given how well this thing does seem to handle multipath, at this point it is not easily apparent to me concerning what it might be "looking at" or "measuring"(or whether or not it's "different" from the visable reading), and I was just wondering if anyone knew "what" that was+if it is any different than what is visually represented by the "bar type" meter ... Hence why I asked what it is indicating ....

For all I know per my "observations" of it(which hasn't been much so far) at this point, It could be(probably is I expect) a signal quality reading of sorts, "looking at" things such as BER -- Or -- it could just "mute" the tones when reception is below threshold, and could actually be a bit of a signal "strentgh" indication of sorts, such as an audible "version" of the AGC readings on some Sony Sets .. I.e. a RF amplifier in receiver "front-end" adjusted for less gain = steady tone, RF amp adjusted for more gain = broken tones, max gain = the "farthest apart" broken tones ...

One way we could find out is --- Let's say your watching WBRA-DT when E-skip is rolling in. As the interference increases(note that uncorrectable multipath is just seen as "noise" just as interference is), if it's a "signal quality" indication (i.e basically, the easier the digital data contained within the signal is to decode, the 'slower' the beeps), as the interference from distant signals propagating by bouncing off the e-layer of ionosphere increases, the beeps would get slower, during periods when the interference decreases, the beeps would get faster .... but The signal strength as received from WBRA-DT doesn't actually change .... And, if we had a true "signal level/strength" reading(or something that's looking at what the AGC circuit is doing), we would expect to see the reading(whether a visable "bar type" reading/etc. or audible tones) *increase* with the interference(as it doesn't "know" the extra noise isn't "signal", and it would also probably be the case increased noise from a NTSC analog signal to increase it's "strength reading" vs. if the interfering signal via E-skip was a ATSC signal)

Anyway, also I do notice the visual "signal quality" meter seems to be very sensitive ... any little "bit" of 8VSB signal detected (presuming it's not impaired by uncorrectable multipath or interference) seems to almost make the (visual) meter Jump to something around the 30% "range" ... aras, for example the similar meter on Zenith HDV420 will just move a little bit in similar circumstances ....

If I recall correctly, you have(or had) a HDV420 as well, so you'll probably understand what I'm getting at here ... I was sitting there "waiting" for quite a while for conditions/tropo scatter to get good enough for stations like WUPX-DT and a few of the columbus stations to lock, expecting they soon would(at least for very short periods) given what I'm used to with that sort of thing with the HDV420 ( If it's at 33% for instance, it's generally probably going to 34% "very, very soon" and at least lock/decode for a few seconds, but if it is at say 10~15% I might be waiting a LONG time(if it ever happens) before It'll go "up" to 34% and lock ).... Given the DTT900's meter showed a fairly constant about 30% "reading" much of the time I was monitoring for those, I kept expecting those to lock at any second .... but they never did, probably just needed a dB or two more .... LOL ....

Was going to insert additional attenuation into feedline for one of the local signals to see what the "equivilent to HDV420's signal quality meter "34%" reading (for threshold of reception) is on the DTT900, but didn't quite get around to it .... Given the different "shadings" on the "signal bar", I would think it would be that same "34%" reading, but Looking at it quickly while WDKY-DT was fading up and down a bit, it appeared to me that it might be a little higher ...

This is probably about as interesting to most folks as watching the grass grow, but I am easily amused ....

jimp2244

03-18-08, 08:05 AM

Received my coupons late last week, and Picked up 2 Zenith DTT900's from HHGreg today ... I had considered maybe trying out one of the others, such as Sansonic FT300A (which reportedly uses a double-conversion tuner ), but given that I haven't seen any reports on it's performance (or how/if it works to manually tune to RF channel #'s/etc) yet + that most reports on the Zenith/Insigna were quite favorable/etc/etc, decided to go with the Zenith Box ....... I used just one coupon and bought one Zenith DTT900, reserving the other coupon for another box to try at some point, but from everything I'm reading, there is no reason to try another box. I'll probably pick up another DTT900 in the next few days.

pjpjpjpj

03-18-08, 09:37 AM

Just curious - how long ago did you guys send in your applications, that you received your coupons already?

jimp2244

03-18-08, 10:30 AM

Just curious - how long ago did you guys send in your applications, that you received your coupons already?

I believe it was within a week or so of the web site opening.

gerhard911

03-18-08, 11:01 AM

I used just one coupon and bought one Zenith DTT900, reserving the other coupon for another box to try at some point, but from everything I'm reading, there is no reason to try another box. I'll probably pick up another DTT900 in the next few days.

As long as you are satisfied with mono sound and do not need S video or analog pass through and do not want Smart Antenna.

I am afraid that box falls well short of the mark for many. Personally I am waiting to see how the MaxMedia will do, should it ever actually start shipping.

jimp2244

03-18-08, 11:06 AM

March Madness Schedule

Since the NCAA Men's Basketball Tournament begins tonight with the Opening Round game, here is some hopefully useful information:

WKRC has posted a "Q and A" document on their web site. Scroll down to the bottom on the left, or click here for a direct link: http://www.centralmediaserver.com/WKRC/docs/NCAA_qanda.doc

WKRC Schedule

THURSDAY, MARCH 20

12:20PM GEORGIA (14) – XAVIER (3)

2:30PM* KENTUCKY (11) – MARQUETTE (6)
*Or following the conclusion of the Xavier game

7:10PM KANSAS ST. (11) – USC (6)
(and other games of interest)

9:40PM GEORGE MASON (12) – NOTRE DAME (5)
(and other games of interest)

FRIDAY, MARCH 21

12:25PM DAVIDSON (10) – GONZAGA (7)
(and other games of interest)

2:35PM SOUTH ALABAMA (10) – BUTLER (7)
(and other games of interest)

7:10PM MT ST MARY (16) – UNC (1)
(and other games of interest)

9:30PM ARKANSAS (9) – INDIANA (8)
(and other games of interest)

CBS is providing all games and all feeds in HD.

At this point, the WHIO shedule is the same as WKRC for day 1, with the exception that WHIO will have the flex feed for Xavier, and WKRC will have the constant feed. I don't have any info for WHIO for day 2 and beyond.

I will try to keep this post up-to-date as much as possible so check back.

UPDATE: I have attached coverage maps for day 1
UPDATE: I have attached the coverage maps for day 2 in a later post (forum limits amount of attachments per post)

jimp2244

03-18-08, 11:14 AM

As long as you are satisfied with mono sound and do not need S video or analog pass through and do not want Smart Antenna.The box outputs stereo sound. There is not much, if any, picture quality difference between s video and composite. I don't have a Smart Antenna, and I don't know anyone who does...

I am afraid that box falls well short of the mark for many. Personally I am waiting to see how the MaxMedia will do, should it ever actually start shipping.I think the box does exactly what it is supposed to do, and does it extremely well. If you're comparing based simply on feature set, there are definitely other boxes that have more features. But, most of those features will not be necessary for the majority of people, and the baseline performance of the DTT900 is so good that I think that it more than makes up for any features that another box could introduce. Based on other reviews, the DTT900 has been said to have better PQ than other boxes, even those using s video. The tuner, 6th gen LG, is considered one of the best, if not the best, available. It's simple to set up, the menus and displays make sense, and it just works well.

Trip in VA

03-18-08, 11:26 AM

I think it only does mono over the RF out, but stereo through RCA cables. Either way, I know there's a setting that will switch between Stereo and Mono in the menus.

Is it a 5th generation chip? I thought it was something newer. I have one of the first devices that had the 5th generation chip, and the DTT900 blows it out of the water.

- Trip

gerhard911

03-18-08, 11:27 AM

Are you unaware of the left channel audio problems with the Zenith (& Insignia) CECBs being reported in this thread ? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948767) It appears the work around is to set your TV or Audio Receiver to mono.

There are many factors to consider and it appears to me that none of the boxes currently available is a "no brainer" selection, as your "no reason to try another box" comment seemed to suggest.

Nitewatchman

03-18-08, 02:35 PM

The audio issue on the DTT900 is interesting. Seems to me like Left Channel sampling is working a bit "differently" than Right channel. Also, comparing it to (analog stereo/rca jacks) audio output from my Zenith HDV420 STB using a fairly decent audio receiver/speaker setup/etc, whether I output stereo or mono from the DTT900 (via the RCA jacks), the DTT900 audio sounds a lot to me like 8bit sampling for the D/A conversion (a "tinny quality" to higher frequencies) vs. what sounds like 16bit(or more) sampling from the HDV420.

Also notice that the output level is much higher when one selects to output mono vs stereo.

This is not an issue for me at all for what I'll be using the DTT900 for. If I ever hook the thing up to a HD display or Audio receiver for instance, it would only be something along the lines of using it for a 2nd tuner for the PIP functions of my HD displays (two of which have a "split screen" mode, but for instance, there's only one ATSC tuner in the one of the sets ...)

----------

BTW, regarding our "signal meter discussion", adding some extra attenuation before receiver, at this point it looks to me like the audio tones are just a audible representation of the visual signal quality meter/bar ... For instance, The tone allways becomes steady at the left side of the first "O" in "Good" in the upper range of the visual meter ...

Just curious - how long ago did you guys send in your applications, that you received your coupons already?

I called them Jan 2nd, got a number in the 500K's ....

jimp2244

03-18-08, 02:39 PM

Is it a 5th generation chip? I thought it was something newer. I have one of the first devices that had the 5th generation chip, and the DTT900 blows it out of the water.Sorry, 6th gen. Fixed my previous post.

jimp2244

03-18-08, 02:41 PM

This is not an issue for me at all for what I'll be using the DTT900 for. If I ever hook the thing up to a HD display or Audio receiver for instance, it would only be something along the lines of using it for a 2nd tuner for the PIP functions of my HD displays (two of which have a "split screen" mode, but for instance, there's only one ATSC tuner in the one of the sets ...) Same thing here... I have been thinking sort of interesting that these expensive TVs with only one ATSC tuner (like mine) which tout PiP as a feature will have their feature rendered useless when the analogs are gone. I guess converter box is the only way to overcome this. I wonder how soon (if not already) they will start using two ATSC tuners instead of one ATSC and two NTSC tuners...

terryfoster

03-18-08, 03:44 PM

I have been thinking sort of interesting that these expensive TVs with only one ATSC tuner (like mine) which tout PiP as a feature will have their feature rendered useless when the analogs are gone.

Useless for those without any additional equipment (DVD player, PC, game system, etc) and are OTA only. Those with cable can continue to use their cable feed. Those with satellite will be able to combine the built in ATSC tuner with their sat box. Otherwise the PiP/PoP can be combined with certain other extra pieces of equipment.

Nitewatchman

03-18-08, 04:10 PM

^ Except that the 2nd PIP "window" on some equipment will not work with equipment hooked up to HDMI or component inputs, or will only work with SD resolutions output from the source device ....

Personally+currently, I generally only use the PIP/Pop functions on my displays with OTA or SD DBS sources (Don't sub to LiL service here, BTW) ....

update : Also, difficult to say when, but someday I think it's likely analog cable will be going away as well, hence anyone using internal QAM "tuner" on thier set with cable which only works with one of the PIP/Pop windows may also experience an issue with this ....

terryfoster

03-18-08, 04:41 PM

Sure there are equipment limitations as to when and how PiP/PoP can be used, but there will still be plenty of use for these functions after Feb 2009.

Nitewatchman

03-18-08, 07:54 PM

there will still be plenty of use for these functions after Feb 2009.

Sure, like hooking up a DTV converter box for OTA to a Composite video input+ using it with the "second" PiP/PoP window if your set doesn't have dual ATSC tuners in it ...

I do know I have everything under the sun hooked up to HD displays, but for instance I'm not likely to use a PiP/PoP function while Watching a movie from DVD, Blu-Ray, or playing back a HD "recording" of "Jericho" from my HTPC ...

Perhaps some folks have uses for PiP/PoP for those sorts of applications (such as for one family member watching different programming on one window with headphones/etc), but generally I believe those sorts of applications are quite limited, and PiP/PoP is generally more useful for doing such things such as watching bits of say, 2 sporting events from 2 different sources ... such as say a Fox and CBS NFL game from the internal "tuners" on your set, or using one window with a sat receiver to browse through EPG while a commercial is airing while using other window to watch something via internal tuner+OTA/etc --- Those are certianly along the lines of applications I find PoP particularly useful for ...

And, one would expect(if it hasn't already started happening, at least at some point) most newer sets with pip/POP functions to have dual ATSC/QAM tuners ....

Paul210

03-19-08, 09:15 AM

Jeff,

I'm sure they would be interested in your impressions of your new converter boxes at these threads:

ATSC converter box comparisons
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=980052

LG's Zenith-branded DTT900 Digital to Analog Converter Box
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948767

jimp2244

03-19-08, 03:27 PM

I have updated the March Madness schedule post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13407883#post13407883) above.

mah702

03-20-08, 01:03 AM

I was searching the greenbutton.com and found the solution to my problem. The database that media center uses for the channel information was using the frequency information for WKRC after the transition next february (12), not the current frequency (31). The link below explains the problem and how to fix it. I followed it and WKRC works just fine.

hxxp://thenears.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/troubleshooting-atsc-issues-in-mce/

Thanks for the link :) I had the same problem with MCE and your post sure helped me out. Saved me a lot of troubleshooting.

jimp2244

03-20-08, 08:09 AM

NCAA March Madness Day 2 Coverage Maps

I am attaching the coverage maps for Day 2 (Friday). Note choice of two different games at 7:10pm:

WKRC is showing Mt. St. Mary v. UNC

WHIO is showing St. Joe’s v. Oklahoma

Please also see my previous March Madness post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13407883#post13407883).

pjpjpjpj

03-20-08, 12:39 PM

Thanks for those posts, Jim. They are proving to spur some interesting water-cooler discussion at my office. ;)

I know this is sorta off-topic about OTA HDTV, but I think the most interesting coverage region is the final Friday night game, when Louisville and Indiana are both playing. Obviously a lot of Hoosier fans live in northwestern Kentucky just across the Ohio River, and a lot of Louisville fans live in southern Indiana as well. It's interesting to see how the "permanent" coverage zones interlock, and which schools the affiliates consider their primary one. I am frankly surprised that the southern Indiana and northwestern Kentucky areas are listed as "permanent", because I would expect them to be trying to jump back-and-forth and cover both games, to keep all viewers happy.

I also find it interesting that Dayton chooses to show St. Joe's (presumably because they are an A-10 foe of Dayton) but Cincinnati doesn't care about conference affiliations of Xavier and just shows the UNC game. Of course, when UNC jumps out to a 40-point lead, they'll quickly jump to St. Joe's. :) I am excited that this will be my first significant sports-related "benefit" of having OTA from Cincinnati and Dayton (the differing games on WKRC and WHIO). I'll have to call my cable/sat-paying friends and brag. Glad I tweaked the antenna enough to finally get WHIO!

tbenson81

03-20-08, 05:08 PM

UNC vs Mt St Mary

That should be a real nail-biter

Why would the Dayton affiliate be showing St Joe and Cincy show UNC

It makes no sense

tbenson81

03-20-08, 05:12 PM

Bill R (# 2)

03-20-08, 06:00 PM

Maybe the WKRC people are bitter UC grads which would explain a lot, especially their inferior decision making

A lot of the "decision makers" aren't grads of ANY local college. The are all "outsiders". The same can be said for the other stations too.

terryfoster

03-20-08, 09:38 PM

Do we know who actually decides what feed is used for WKRC? Do we know that WKRC actually made the selection for that game?

jimp2244

03-20-08, 11:37 PM

Do we know who actually decides what feed is used for WKRC? Do we know that WKRC actually made the selection for that game?CBS assigns the games. The local stations can request a change with proper justification but final word still belongs to CBS. In this case, if you look at the maps WHIO is on an "island" in that in this region they are the only ones showing St. Joe's. I can't say for sure but I would guess that WHIO asked CBS for the change and was granted it.

Keep in mind that both WKRC and WHIO have scheduled the flex feeds, so if one game is a blow out it won't matter because CBS will switch to a more compelling matchup.

I for one am happy they're showing different games. It's one more game I have the choice to watch...

tbenson81

03-21-08, 07:58 AM

I agree that its nice to have different games being showing, but seriously a 1 vs a 16? It will be a 20 pt blowout by halftime. There are 3 other games on then that would be much better games

I dont know but it seems like the Dayton affiliates always do a better job with sporting events than they do in Cincinnati.

pjpjpjpj

03-21-08, 08:02 AM

Keep in mind that both WKRC and WHIO have scheduled the flex feeds, so if one game is a blow out it won't matter because CBS will switch to a more compelling matchup.
Seems like, these days, no matter if a game is listed as "permanent", once the margin gets around 20 points with 5 minutes left or so, they jump to another game. And, frankly, I am fine with that, even if the team involved in the blowout is a team I want to see.

I for one am happy they're showing different games. It's one more game I have the choice to watch...
I agree. And it beats paying DirecTV $80 (or whatever it is) to basically get to watch two extra games (instead of three), especially when MMOD is available online to watch the others if needed.

blbrodbeck

03-23-08, 04:22 PM

Reds games to air in HDTV on TWC

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080323/ENT/803230325/-1/CINCI

Splicer010

03-23-08, 04:29 PM

Now we get to see the Reds lose in HD...Hip hip...hooray...

tvnick

03-24-08, 09:59 AM

This poster makes perfect sense. This city doesnt seem to care about Xavier or their conference opponents. Not to mention, St Joes is closer and its a better game!

Its quite sad actually....All we hear about is UC, when Xavier has pretty much dominated UC for the past 10 years and UC hasnt advanced anywhere in the NCAA tournament for the past 15 years

If its not UC, then its UK or Indiana. This is Cincinnati - start focusing on your hometown team (Xavier) which is about the best thing this city has going for them in any sport.

Elite 8 3 years ago, had the Buckeyes on the ropes last year.....seriously...when is this town going to get a clue

Maybe the WKRC people are bitter UC grads which would explain a lot, especially their inferior decision making

I have to disagree with you. Which game would get the better numbers in this town, St. Joe's or North Carolina? There are huge numbers of North Carolina fans everywhere in the U.S. that would rather watch North Carolina win by 50 then would watch St. Joe's get beat by Oklahoma as expected. Just my opinion and I've lived in quite a few markets.

pjpjpjpj

03-24-08, 10:22 AM

I have to disagree with you. Which game would get the better numbers in this town, St. Joe's or North Carolina? There are huge numbers of North Carolina fans everywhere in the U.S. that would rather watch North Carolina win by 50 then would watch St. Joe's get beat by Oklahoma as expected. Just my opinion and I've lived in quite a few markets.

tbenson's obvious bias towards XU notwithstanding, I do think that XU unfairly plays second- or third-fiddle in Cincinnati TV coverage. It's just due to history. But I don't think WKRC was being intentionally malicious by ignoring an A-10 rival's game. I'm sure they just figured they would leave on the "certainly in demand" #1 team, on flex, and change as soon as it gets ugly. If anything, WHIO's interest in going through the process of requesting a different game, just so locals could see an A-10 rival of Dayton, would reflect the real "basketball diehard" nature of Dayton fans.... which they are. I like XU, but Dayton kills any Cincinnati school in fanaticism - just go up to a game. Not a slam against XU (or UC or whoever) - it's just that most Dayton alums are from Dayton, attend Dayton, and stay in Dayton, and frankly, there's not much else to do up there in the Winter. :p There are 65-year-old women in Kettering who know the "favorite movie" of all the UD players; most XU fans probably can't name all of XU's assistant coaches. Again, that's nothing against XU fans - just noting how diehard the Dayton fans are.

But I wonder, if WVU had a game opposite a "national interest" team like UNC, would WKRC request WVU due to the local love for Bob Huggins? I dunno. Just throwin' that out there. Ironically, Thursday night, we won't have to worry, as UC and XU fans alike will be locked in to the XU/WVU game. Let's hope for no more yellow suits.

tvnick

03-24-08, 11:20 AM

tbenson's obvious bias towards XU notwithstanding, I do think that XU unfairly plays second- or third-fiddle in Cincinnati TV coverage. It's just due to history. But I don't think WKRC was being intentionally malicious by ignoring an A-10 rival's game. I'm sure they just figured they would leave on the "certainly in demand" #1 team, on flex, and change as soon as it gets ugly. If anything, WHIO's interest in going through the process of requesting a different game, just so locals could see an A-10 rival of Dayton, would reflect the real "basketball diehard" nature of Dayton fans.... which they are. I like XU, but Dayton kills any Cincinnati school in fanaticism - just go up to a game. Not a slam against XU (or UC or whoever) - it's just that most Dayton alums are from Dayton, attend Dayton, and stay in Dayton, and frankly, there's not much else to do up there in the Winter. :p There are 65-year-old women in Kettering who know the "favorite movie" of all the UD players; most XU fans probably can't name all of XU's assistant coaches. Again, that's nothing against XU fans - just noting how diehard the Dayton fans are.

But I wonder, if WVU had a game opposite a "national interest" team like UNC, would WKRC request WVU due to the local love for Bob Huggins? I dunno. Just throwin' that out there. Ironically, Thursday night, we won't have to worry, as UC and XU fans alike will be locked in to the XU/WVU game. Let's hope for no more yellow suits.

I agree, X doesn't get enough respect around here, probably because of the constant changing of head coaches. I also agree it was not malicious on WKRC's part not airing the St. Joes game, UNC was just a much bigger game. Dayton fans are some of the best. I worked 3 of Dayton's home games this year and their fans make it a great experience to see a game there.

WKRC would definitely air WVU instead of UNC, the people here still love Huggs. Speaking of the yellow suit, last week he showed up at a big Juco tournament in Kansas and he and his entourage wore matching yellow WVU sweat suits. Bob also had a gold chain and other bling on. It was almost as bad as the yellow suit.

jimp2244

03-24-08, 01:04 PM

it's just that most Dayton alums are from Dayton, attend Dayton, and stay in DaytonSome of us are from Cincinnati, and stay in Cincinnati :)

tbenson81

03-24-08, 03:51 PM

tvnick

03-25-08, 09:22 AM

Since we are talking history here, no 16 has ever beaten a 1. How can you say UNC was a bigger game? 16 vs 1's are a joke 99% of the time and it was no different this time. 11 vs 6's are usually terrific matchups.

Maybe UNC has a larger fan base than OU or SJ - but the fact of the matter is, we are 500 miles outside the NC market and I'd be wiling to bet that most NCAA viewers here in Cincinnati would much rather see the most competitive matchup possible.

Tony

Looks like WKRC and I disagree with you. I might venture to say UNC has a larger fan base than the entire A-10 combined, and I am serious about that. I'm Jayhawk born and Jayhawk bred and when I die I'll be Jayhawk dead, and I would rather watch Kansas beat Little Sisters of the Poor by 50 than watch St. Joes play overtime. Just my opinion...........

tbenson81

03-25-08, 10:46 AM

Thanks for proving my point. The fact that you would rather watch Kansas beat little sisters of the poor by 50 just shows your homer, bias nature and eliminated any possibility of you being a true sports fan.

You are not a sports fan, but rather your run of the mill individual who just watches their own team and doesnt have a clue about anything else, any other team or other conference

WKRC disagreeing with me is a compliment. This is the same network that makes a mockery out of college football in the fall......where we are watching Miami of Ohio in a blowout instead of big time SEC matchups. Not to mention the same station that has to break in every 45 seconds in the winter to warn us of the upcoming white death blizzard conditions that never seem to manifest.

Tony

pjpjpjpj

03-25-08, 12:36 PM

Some of us are from Cincinnati, and stay in Cincinnati :)
I was just saying that I bet a much greater percentage of Dayton alumni are from Dayton and still live there than with UC or XU. I would think the latter would have many more out-of-state or out-of-city students.

Hey, anyone want to talk antennas and OTA stuff? :D

tvnick

03-25-08, 04:10 PM

[QUOTE=tbenson81;13466966]Thanks for proving my point. The fact that you would rather watch Kansas beat little sisters of the poor by 50 just shows your homer, bias nature and eliminated any possibility of you being a true sports fan.

You are not a sports fan, but rather your run of the mill individual who just watches their own team and doesnt have a clue about anything else, any other team or other conference

I watched NCAA games live in 13 different venues this season, including MAC, Big 10, Big 12, SEC, A-10 and Big East. Talked to their coaches, even shot around with teams in warm-ups.

You watched TV.

Rock, Chalk, Jayhawk!

ncincy1

03-25-08, 05:15 PM

Yes. Let's talk antennas and OTA.
I have done a search on both of my televisions and new digital channels now show up - with signal strength of 100%.
To date, no programming is being aired. Note: I live in Sharonville area.
They show up as channels: 34.6 & 34.7 --- Yeah, I know, very weird numbers.
Anyone know who this is from - LDTV Channel 38?

Nitewatchman

03-25-08, 06:01 PM

ncincy1,

WCET-DT (CET/PBS digital Cincinnati) transmits on channel 34. The numbers in the "x" in 34.x are WCET-DT program streams. The program streams WCET-DT sends on 34.3 (CET HD), and 34.4 (CET world) remaps via PSIP VCT (virtual channel table) with most equipment to virtual channels 48.1 (CET) and 48.2 (create).

To say it simply, 34.6 and 34.7 appear to be "ghost" program streams/info which WCET-DT is currently sending. I say "ghost streams" because There's no decodable/useable datastreams (usable by our OTA DTV receivers+MPEG2 decoders used in them at least) there, at least not via the transport stream they are sending OTA. Hence why you are not seeing any video or audio programming there.

Depending upon the design of different receivers, these "ghost" streams may be found and "show up" on some equipment but not others. Hopefully on ones that do see it, you can still decode their "active"(non"ghost streams") services on 48.1+48.2 (or 34.3 and 34.4 if your receiver is not using PSIP VCT info). Note that WCET-DT is not currently sending any PSIP VCT info for 34.6 and 34.7 like they do for 34.3 (48.1) and 34.4 (48.2), if they were, that would "cause" the 34.6+34.7 to "remap" to a 48.x "subchannel #", like 34.3(CET) and 34.4 (World) do, hence why you're seeing them on 34.6/7 instead of say, 48.3/48.4/etc ....

Here's is some of the info on these WCET-DT "ghost streams" from TSreader : For program 6 :

PMT PID 0x0060 - Program 6 - [ note a little "primer" : PMT = TS_program Map table - PID = Packet identifier - In short + basically, --- PMT is used to identify program streams within a MPEG2 Transport stream, PIDs are used with each and every packet of data present in the transport stream to Identify which stream each packet of data belongs to ... ]

Program Number: 6
PCR on PID 8191 (0x1fff) - [ note : PID at 0x1fff is their null packet stream - no useful decodable info here with our receivers - Note that their Null packet stream uses approx 15% of their available bandwidth - about 3Mb/s -]
PMT Version: 0

ES PID 0x0006a - (note : This stream is currently using about 91kb/s (.47% of their bandwidth) -- far less than would be the case if it were an "actual" useable elementary video stream ) :

Stream Type: 0x0b ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B
Elementary Stream PID 106 (0x006a)

Elementary Stream PID 106 (0x006a) ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B
Descriptor: Registration Descriptor
Format identifier: 0x42444330 (BDC0)

------------------------------------

PMT PID 0x0070 - Program 7 -

Program Number: 7
PCR on PID 8191 (0x1fff) - [ note : PID at 0x1fff is the null packet stream, same stream PCR for Program 6 "points to" - there is no useful decodable info here - Note that their Null packet stream uses approx 15% of their available bandwidth - about 3Mb/s]

PMT Version: 0

Stream Type: 0x0b ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B
Elementary Stream PID 122 (0x007a)

Elementary Stream PID 122 (0x007a) ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B [note: This stream at 0x007a is using a VERY small bit of bandwidth, approx 10kb/s, 0r .05% of the 19.39Mb/s total available - )
Descriptor: Registration Descriptor
Format identifier: 0x42444331 (BDC1)

Nitewatchman

03-25-08, 06:43 PM

Also, From a couple of pages ago :

I got new channels showing up when I scaned for digital channels 34.3 and 34.4 I have never got these before. Ally they are saying is no broadcast now on both channels.

In addition to my response to this in Post #9144 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13353055#post13353055) and jimp2244's response in post #9143 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13351446#post13351446 ) :

After thinking about it a bit per my response to ncincy1 above, it occurs to me that in this case, it's possible robmadden1's equipment may also be "renumbering" WCET-DT's "ghost" program streams from 34.6 + 34.7 (see info in my response to ncincy1 above) to 34.3 and 34.4 ... This might seem most likely if the "scan" also found 48.1/48.2 and you were/are receiving CET-HD (48.1 - program stream 34.3 "renumbered" from 34.3 to 34.1 on your receiver then remapped via PSIP VCT to 48.1) and CET-World just fine .... (48.2 - Program stream 34.4 "renumbered" from 34.4 to 34.2 on your receiver then remappped via PSIP to 48.2) ...

tbenson81

03-25-08, 07:49 PM

Your damn right I watched on TV! Why would I waste my time and money traveling to 13 different venues when I can kick back on my couch with an ice cold brew and watch multiple games at one time in all their HD glory!

Tony

Ill be back when this forum gets boring again to liven things up!

ncincy1

03-26-08, 07:54 AM

Thanks Nitewatchman for your informative and detailed response.

Guess I was hoping for the next "batch" of local digital channels to arrive.

Any thoughts, rumors or speculation on the following:

1.) What WXIX plans to do with channel 19.2 since the demise of "The Tube"?
It's been over 6 months and they still just air the same message.

2.) When WBDT plans to up their power on their digital channel - 18.1 so I can receive it here in the northern suburbs? All of the other Dayton digital stations come in at various levels with the highest (WPTD @ 100%) - lowest (WRGT @ 70%). Note: I have a $39 Radio Shack antenna mounted in the attic with an external amplifier that get the job done nicely.

3.) I know Elliott Block has CP's for digital channels 20 and 48 but have not seen any news on when they would go "live". It's my understanding that the low power stations can still broadcast analog after 02/19/09. Not sure why he would wait until then...

Thanks so much!

Bubster

03-26-08, 08:46 AM

pjpjpjpj

03-26-08, 08:56 AM

Why would I waste my time and money traveling to 13 different venues when I can kick back on my couch with an ice cold brew and watch multiple games at one time in all their HD glory!
Um, because nothing compares to being there in person?

You really feel that way? Wow. :eek: Do you play "Second Life" 12 hours a day too? :p
Seriously, the world is a lot more interesting than what you see on TV. This antenna/TV stuff is a hobby, not life itself.

P.S. nick, I gotcha beat - I played in two NCAA tournaments. ;) :)

tbenson81

03-26-08, 10:51 AM

Both of you are outnumbered here

Do you ever listen to the Herd on ESPN Radio? He just had an entire show last week dedicated to the pros and cons of attending sporting events vs watching them on tv.

Pros of attending: Not much - people think they are cool because they are at the game.

Cons of attending: Costs, food expenses, walking 300 yards to take a leak in a horse trough, not being able to watch other games going on simultaneously , no commentary, no replay, $6 dollar beers, 7 dollar hot dogs, traffic etc.

Pros of watching at home: Convenience, costs - 6 bucks for a case of beer, a lot cheaper food, can watch simultaneous sporting events at one time, can pause rewind, hear commentary, watch replays, no parking, no crowds of 20,000 people, bathroom 10-30 feet away and no line.

You guys have fun wasting your time at all these games. Or better yet....get a better tv and surround sound system and you wont want to watch anywhere else.

Tony

jimp2244

03-26-08, 11:22 AM

1.) What WXIX plans to do with channel 19.2 since the demise of "The Tube"?
It's been over 6 months and they still just air the same message.No word on this that I'm aware of.

2.) When WBDT plans to up their power on their digital channel - 18.1 so I can receive it here in the northern suburbs? All of the other Dayton digital stations come in at various levels with the highest (WPTD @ 100%) - lowest (WRGT @ 70%). Note: I have a $39 Radio Shack antenna mounted in the attic with an external amplifier that get the job done nicely.I am in Sharonville and receive WBDT fine, as long as my antenna is properly aligned. WBDT is the weakest and hardest to receive by far though. If they were to increase power, it would most likely be after analog shut off next February. Also their antenna pattern is directional and does not favor our direction. I assume this is to not cause interference to analog 19 (WXIX).

3.) I know Elliott Block has CP's for digital channels 20 and 48 but have not seen any news on when they would go "live". It's my understanding that the low power stations can still broadcast analog after 02/19/09. Not sure why he would wait until then...I've sent them e-mails asking about this an have not gotten any replies. Feel free to try yourself; you may have better luck.

Trip in VA

03-26-08, 11:26 AM

WBDT plans to return to channel 26 after the transition. 954' 35 kW DA is what they were given by the FCC, but I have to imagine they'll be boosting power after the shutoff date.

- Trip

pjpjpjpj

03-26-08, 02:45 PM

Both of you are outnumbered here
Do you ever listen to the Herd on ESPN Radio?
Outnumbered by Colin Cowherd and some of his listeners? Sure, I would expect an ESPN guy to decry watching sports on TV. Next up, Rush Limbaugh will tell you how you shouldn’t get your political opinions from TV, Oprah will tell you that daytime talk shows are worthless, Rachael Ray will tell you not to watch FoodTV, and Candice Olsen will tell you not to watch HGTV.

Maybe Cowherd should go do a poll at an NFL pregame tailgate and ask people why they paid thousands of dollars for their season tickets. I’m sure everyone there would agree with the radio call-in folks who said it’s better to sit on the couch.

And by the way, listening to sports-talk radio does not make anyone a fan. No offense.

Pros of attending: Not much - people think they are cool because they are at the game.
Obviously Cowherd was playing devil’s advocate or trying to stir the pot, because he wouldn’t have a job at ESPN if he would only find this as the reason why people attend sporting events in person. He’s not that dumb or narrow-minded.

Cons of attending: Costs, food expenses, walking 300 yards to take a leak in a horse trough, not being able to watch other games going on simultaneously , no commentary, no replay, $6 dollar beers, 7 dollar hot dogs, traffic etc.
All of these vary depending on where you go and what you see. Most of it is avoidable if you aren’t an idiot, or if you, for example, don’t need to drink a six beers during a game. Most of my friends drink all their beer at the tailgate (same price as home) and just have a water or two during the game to sober up before the drive home.

And obviously, hundreds of thousands of people find these expenses and “hassles” a minor convenience in exchange for the experience of being there (and that has nothing to do with “thinking they are cool”).

Pros of watching at home: Convenience, costs - 6 bucks for a case of beer, a lot cheaper food, can watch simultaneous sporting events at one time, can pause rewind, hear commentary, watch replays, no parking, no crowds of 20,000 people, bathroom 10-30 feet away and no line.
Many people – probably a majority – find several of those items to be a negative. First of all, there are very few TV sports commentators who I can stand for very long. Many of them literally force me to hit "mute". Personally, I have no problem with 20,000 people. 20,000 – even 50,000 – people make a game a lot more fun to be at. Heck, I had a great time in the Superdome two years ago watching the Bengals beat the Saints and being heckled by 65,000 New Orleanians. I wouldn’t have traded that for 100 games watched on my couch.

You guys have fun wasting your time at all these games. Or better yet....get a better tv and surround sound system and you wont want to watch anywhere else.
Aha! You mentioned the key word here. Fun. I bet the majority of “real” sports fans don’t find sitting on their couch, even if they have a 73” HDTV, to be “fun”, in comparison to being at the game with tens of thousands of other fans.

But, whatever floats your boat, Tony. More power to ya.

Alright, enough of this conversation. Let’s call it a “draw due to personal preferences” and leave it at that.

tvnick

03-26-08, 02:51 PM

Um, because nothing compares to being there in person?

You really feel that way? Wow. :eek: Do you play "Second Life" 12 hours a day too? :p
Seriously, the world is a lot more interesting than what you see on TV. This antenna/TV stuff is a hobby, not life itself.

P.S. nick, I gotcha beat - I played in two NCAA tournaments. ;) :)

You've got me stomped pj, I only played in two high school state championship games. I was a late game sub and hacker.

Bubster wants us off Tony, one last comment. I get paid to be at most of the games. The food is free, seats are free. You've got me on the parking though, and I can't drink any beer until after the game is over....then I drink a lot.

Nitewatchman

03-26-08, 03:33 PM

I know Elliott Block has CP's for digital channels 20 and 48 but have not seen any news on when they would go "live".

Suspect that "48" was a typo, he has CP's for digital companion channels for 20 (WBQC) and 47 (WOTH). But, he may or may not actually use them. The one for WBQC-LD 20 expires 8/13/2010, the one for WOTH-LD 47 expires 1/10/2010. If I recall correctly, I don't think FCC gives CP extensions to LP stations, so if they're not built by then, they probably won't be.

But, He also can "flash cut" to digital at some point on channel 25 + 38 as well.

It's my understanding that the low power stations can still broadcast analog after 02/19/09.

Yes. FCC has indicated however that at "some point" they will require analog shut off for LP's as well - They just haven't said when. And, I don't know why they'd need to implement that requirement, really, as LPTV stations operate as a secondary service, and are not allowed to cause interference to the primary spectrum users (full service broadcasters on core spectrum - ch 2 ~51), anyway ....

Not sure why he would wait until then...

I'd guess $ has something to do with it ...

If there are a good number of OTA DTV viewers out there watching them, I'd think DTV might offer the LP's a number of advantages vs analog ... Not only because of the "no more ghosts/snow" (and if WOTH/WBQC has their digital transmit antenna up as high as their analogs, the coverage areas with 15KW ERP should do VERY well, I'd think), but because of the oppurtuntiies multicasting may offer them ....

So, in other words, if they do manage to stay on air+make it through the transistion, seems to me DTV could help LP stations such as WBQC/WOTH increase revenue ....

2.) When WBDT plans to up their power on their digital channel - 18.1 so I can receive it here in the northern suburbs?

Difficult to say, but You're probably going to need to get a directional antenna with a bit of gain outdoors (If you can) for best results with WBDT-DT. That may very well be the case after analog shut off as well -- A bit more about that follows in my response to trip's post, below ....

Nitewatchman

03-26-08, 03:41 PM

954' 35 kW DA is what they were given by the FCC, but I have to imagine they'll be boosting power after the shutoff date.

- Trip

We should probably be discussing WBDT in Dayton thread, but you know how it goes ...

Anyway, that's for their current facility on 18. The Post-transistion table of allotments for WBDT-DT on 26, shows them at 50KW ERP( only around 1.4dB or so more signal than than their current 35KW ERP), with antenna ID # 74221 (presumably DA per tvfool
post-transistion info), 954 FT HAAT.

Their current null to the S/SW/SE means they squirt as much as about 13~14db less towards those directions(and Cincinnati) --- Or about about 1.5~3KW ERP'ish sent in those directions vs. 35KW ERP towards E/NE Springfield, their COL .... Their current analog transmit antenna also has a somewhat similar null towards South ..

Have not seen a post-transistion CP for 26 filed by WBDT which pop up in FCC records yet, I've been looking for it. .... It perhaps seems odd it hasn't shown up yet, since their form 387 indicated they had planned to file it by

3/15/08 ... Note that WKRC, WCPO and WPTD "expedited" CP's for post-transistion digital where all filed+ have all already been granted by FCC in the past month ....

I also suspect WBDT-DT's current digital facilities were probably mostly based upon replicating "lesser" WBDT analog facilities which were in place at the time the "original' (for during the transistion) DTV table of allotments were being developed(late 90's). At that time, the analog operated from a shorter stick (and with less power), transmitting from a location near Springfield, Ohio. They were a independant (mostly religious) station (WTJC) for a long time, until Pax bought them in the mid~late 90's, Pax didn't have them long, ACME bought it from them in late 90's, and by 2000 (after the DTV CP they're currently covering/licensed for was issued/etc, think all they did was change the location for it to dayton antenna farm) or so had maximized their signal by increasing power+ moving the transmitter site to the "main" dayton antenna farm (which is just SW of Downtown Dayton) ...

AS for interference issues with them increasing power/maximizing their signal in the future, as far as Co-channel interference is concerned, I'm not so sure the "future" outlook for them on 26 (involving WLKY-DT 26 Louisville) is much different than the current situation with them on 18 (WLEX 18 analog Lexington). I do know that From my location only 12 miles from WBDT to my NE, WLEX ~100 Miles to my south, it's amazing how often I see both stations (with proper antenna aiming) .... But, then again, WKOI-DT 39/WLEX-DT 39 are staying where they are both with much higher power levelsthan WBDT-DT's current, or post-transistion allocation + given the DA's involved for those and FCC is "OK" with it ... .... I don't know how well it works for folks in between Lexington+WKOI transmitter near Oxford, OH, however .....

In any case, it will certianly be interesting to see if WBDT digital makes any attempts to maximize their signal past analog shut off, and what they might do ....

blbrodbeck

03-26-08, 08:50 PM

If you think about it. The only people who watch Ch. 25 & Ch. 38 are those people who use an antenna. ALL of those people will HAVE to have converter boxes by next February, or else they won't be able to get the main broadcast channels (5,9,12,19, etc.). Most converter boxes will NOT get analogue. So this means no one will be watching analogue Ch's 25 & 38 after February.

So it would be in Ch. 25 & 38's best interests (only choice) to go digital by the February cut off date.

Bill R (# 2)

03-26-08, 09:09 PM

If you think about it. The only people who watch Ch. 25 & Ch. 38 are those people who use an antenna.

Over here in Northern Kentucky Insight cable carries OTA analog channel 38 (WBQC) on their digital tier on channel 88.1 (clear QAM) full time.

Nitewatchman

03-26-08, 09:17 PM

Analog tuners in TV's, VCR's, DVD recorders/etc will still work. A 2 way splitter and/or A/B switch is all that will be required to continue to view analog LP signals for those using DTV convertor boxes without analog pass through.

For example, Those using the RF modulator out to hook up the converter box to an analog TV with only 1 RF input could use 1). the A/B switch, hooking the DTV converter up to "a" or "b" (the "a" or "b" used as input on the A/B switch) and 2). a 2 way splitter for the antenna feed, with the antenna hooked to the converter box via one output from the splitter, and the antenna hooked up to the "a" or "b" port on the A/B switch with the output from A/B switch hooked to their TV.

Those using Composite or S-video connections with the DTV converter box will only need a splitter for the antenna feed, one side going to the DTV converter box the other side going to the TV .... or, they could use a A/B switch instead, "A" going to the DTV converter and "b" going to the analog tuner in TV, and the antenna hooked up to the other "side" of the A/B switch ...

OF course, use of 2 way splitter will reduce signal by about 3.5db~5db or so (some are worse than others - each side will be 3db down because of splitting the signal, then there is the actual insertion loss of the splitter), but that should not be of much conseqence in most cases within the stations coverage area ... For cases when it is though, an amp of some sort before the splitter will compensate for the extra loss .... The insertion loss of a a/B switch is pretty much insignificant at about 1/2 of a dB or so ....

--------

Edit: Also SOME of us using OTA also bought our own OTA DTV/HD receivers (whether in our sets or external) which aren't the "DTV converter boxes", without coupons ..... some of them have NTSC tuners as well ...

blbrodbeck

03-26-08, 10:30 PM

I didn't know that Insight carried Ch. 38. So, they will still have some viewers either way. My point was very few people would switch to analogue just for the low power stations. The FCC's extended deadline for LP stations may not benefit the stations much after all.

Perhaps a better way to get both digital & analogue without using an A/B switch would be to Use a VCR tuner for analogue.

Plug your antenna into the VCR, plug the VCR into the converter box & when you wanted to watch analogue, tune the converter box to Ch. 3 & turn on the VCR & use it's tuner. The VCR would always pass through the antenna, there would be no splitting of the antenna, & you wouldn't have to get up to flip an A/B switch. Everything could be controlled remotely.

Nitewatchman

03-26-08, 10:41 PM

Plug your antenna into the VCR, plug the VCR into the converter box & when you wanted to watch analogue, tune the converter box to Ch. 3 & turn on the VCR & use it's tuner. The VCR would always pass through the antenna, there would be no splitting of the antenna, & you wouldn't have to get up to flip an A/B switch. Everything could be controlled remotely.

Except that the converter box w/o analog pass through and ATSC only tuner won't pass the analog channel 3 signal from the VCR to the TV ... It will only work with ATSC 8VSB signals on channel 3 .....

I think What you're getting at is a Good idea though ... The only changes that are needed to make it work is to use a 2 way splitter to split antenna feed to VCR + DTV converter, hook the VCR to the RF input on TV, AND hook the DTV convertor box up to the VCR with composite(or S-video) video ("RCA" jacks for audio video) connections (A/V cables were included with my Zenith DTT900's BTW) ... All VCR's I have owned over the past 25 years anyway(even cheap ones) have at least had "line input" audio/video connections, a couple of newer S-VHS machines I have also have S-video inputs as well ...

point was very few people would switch to analogue just for the low power stations.

Hence the CBA's "campaign" (a group representing LP stations) involving the CECB's w/o analog pass through (or NTSC tuners), including the "don't buy me, I'm a scam, I'm a ATSC only tuner/etc" spots that are often running on WBQC+WOTH currently, as well as this :

Low-Power Broadcasters Sue Over Analog Blockage in Converter Box Program (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13482745#post13482745)

Here's the story on it also linked to in that thread :

http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0157/t.12271.html

As silly as it might seem to some of us who can easily find a way to use our analog tuners to receive LP analogs post 2/17/09, I do believe they have some valid points ...

And, IMO, (among other things that IMO should be in those requirements) it's kind of ridiculous the CECB requirements didn't specify requirements for analog pass through ...

you wouldn't have to get up to flip an A/B switch. Everything could be controlled remotely.

Don't know if they still have them, but I use remote controlled A/B switches I purchased from Radio shack several years back to switch between my Dayton/Cincinnati antennas ..... When they did have them, they were about 30 bucks or so though ....

The FCC's extended deadline for LP stations may not benefit the stations much after all.

Well, the way it is right now, the LP operators can decide when they go digital, and for the most part I think that's a *good* thing rather than the gov't forcing them to go digital .... For instance, the flip side to this is, for those LP's that stay analog after 2/17/09 OTA viewers will *still* be able to get some sort of analog OTA service from the LP's which isn't available elsewhere ......

and Keep in mind, Full service stations began their DTV transistion (more or less) and began coming on air with their digital stations in 1998, and the rules developed for that took much of the early-mid 90's to get "figured out", and they were even working on it earlier than that .... The deadline for many of them to come on air wasn't until 2002 or 2003. In Cincinnati however, which was market #30 at the time the "rules" on this were adopted, the "top 4" affiliates had to be on air with digital by Late 99 or so ....

Generally speaking, putting a new station on the air isn't something that happens overnight, it often takes several years ..... and, Right now, it might even be difficult for a LP station to schedule any tower work with tower crews before 2009, as they're going to be busy enough with the work they have to do for changes involved for some of the full service stations ...

Also, FCC did not Even develop the rules and procedures which allowed LP's to go digital at all until late 2004, and they weren't and "aren't" guarenteed" a digital companion channel either like the full service stations were ... They had to go through a lengthy process to get digital companion channel(if there was even any available channels for it in ther area), which is something both WBQC+WOTH did, hence their current digital companion channel CP's for 20+47 ..... If they didn't/don't get a digital companion channel, they'll have to flash cut to digital on channel (BTW, Cincinnati TBN LP translator W36DG has a CP from FCC to flash cut to digital on ch 36) ....

In other words, the LP DTV transistion is really just starting, and will still be "just starting" when the analogs shut off ...

Another important thing to remember is, regarding the DTV transistion for full service stations, analog shut off specifically is happening so that the gov't can reclaim the spectrum used by Tv channel 52~69 and reallocate it to other uses ... 88 MHZ of the 108 MHZ total being refarmed is or has been auctioned off to the highest bidder, the other 24 MHZ is going to public safety uses .... in fact, some of the revenue for the auctions is what is funding the converter box coupon program ....

That just doesn't apply to LP stations, and whereever they are on the dial, they must "move" elsewhere if they're going to cause interference to a newly allocated service, and they must not cause interference to any primary spectrum user .... For instance, what is WOTH had to MOVE twice for full service DTV transistion -- First, they had to move from channel 35 when WLWT-DT fired up (in feb 1998 the first time, BTW, on their 50th aniversary), AND they also had to move again from channel 39 when WKOI-DT fired up there a few years later ..

jimp2244

03-27-08, 07:58 AM

Regarding WOTH and WBQC, it might be more cost effective for Mr. Block to have one digital station that carries both channels...

ncincy1

03-27-08, 10:18 AM

Yeah, that's what I was thinking:

Digital channel 20 "mapped" to 38

38.1 = WBQC
38.2 = WOTH
38.3 = Univision feed (yes, someone needed to say it).

With expanding Hispanic population in the Cincy metro maybe someone in the market with a digital subchannel could support this programming?

With new multicasting capabilities the costs would not be as significant as starting up a brand new station. Just a thought for discussion.

Anyone have ideas if WSTR plans to multicast?

Bill R (# 2)

03-27-08, 11:20 AM

With expanding Hispanic population in the Cincy metro maybe someone in the market with a digital subchannel could support this programming?

Do you really think Cincinnati is ready for that? WKRC couldn't even make Hispanic newscasts work.

pjpjpjpj

03-27-08, 01:12 PM

Do you really think Cincinnati is ready for that? WKRC couldn't even make Hispanic newscasts work.
I don't think the majority of Cincinnatians have to be "ready" for it. Unlike a newscast on a network station, this would be its own channel - which you wouldn't watch if you didn't speak the language. So unless you have some Hispanic friends to ask, you'd never really know whether it is "worth it" to have (assuming, from your post, that you are not Hispanic). For example, I have TBN Enlace turned off on my channel guide, since I don't speak Spanish. But that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of Cincinnati Hispanics who watch it, ya know?

Humorous sidenote: Having absolutely nothing to do with race or ethnicity, just, uh, "content", my friends and I in college (none of whom spoke Spanish) used to watch a daily soap opera on Univision because there were two very attractive women who tended to wear very tight, revealing outfits almost every single episode. :D

Nitewatchman

03-27-08, 01:53 PM

Cleveland has a spanish language station - WQHS 61 (univision) DT on 34 ....

There is also some other "stuff" we're missing in Cincinnati besides Univision and CW HD --- Such as ION (which btw are reportedly going HD soon, and their O&O digitals run 4 multicast SD currently (at least WUPX did last time I saw them ) ... I don't think WUPX Morehead quite makes it into much of Cincinnati market .....

When they do manage to go digital, and get one station on air at first, sure, putting SD multicast streams of both stations on the one digital makes sense, but I'd think they could also find plenty of programming and other services to "fill out" the bandwidth for two stations ...

And remember, there's other also "stuff" that can be done with DTV besides HD and multicasting "as we know it" ... such as this :

http://www.atsc.org/news_information/press/2007/Mobile_07.html

http://broadcastengineering.com/RF/mph-a-vsb-mobile-dtv-0503/

I've read some of the banter/etc. and issues about MP/H and A-VSB on opendtv, and if I recall correctly there are definitely some "issues" (generally not technical) they have to deal with, and I don't know, but I wonder if Sinclair (owns WSTR, also owns Dayton stations WKEF/operates WRGT, owns Columbus station WSYX/operates WTTE, owns or operates WDKY Lexington) is "looking into" implementing things such as MP/H or A-VSB on some of their stations ... Right now, WKEF-DT, WSTR-DT and WDKY-DT aren't multicasting for instance, and each are running with several Mb/s of null packets .....

CincySaint

03-28-08, 03:48 PM

Anyone know what games we are getting tonight?

pjpjpjpj

03-28-08, 04:35 PM

Anyone know what games we are getting tonight?

I'm sure Jim can find it (where DO you find that, Jim?), but I would guess we'll get the two Big Ten games - Davidson/Wisconsin and Michigan State/Memphis.

Just a guess, though.

terryfoster

03-28-08, 04:43 PM

Anyone know what games we are getting tonight?

St. Cloud St./Clarkson, Michigan/Niagara, Colorado Col/Michigan State, and ND/UNH. St Cloud St./Clarkson is already underway.

EDIT: Oh, you probably didn't mean hockey ;)

jimp2244

03-28-08, 07:23 PM

Sorry, been really busy lately. Here is WKRC's coverage:

FRIDAY, MARCH 28

7:10PM (10) DAVIDSON – (3) WISCONSIN
(Swing)

9:57PM (5) MICHIGAN ST – (1) MEMPHIS
(Swing)

SATURDAY, MARCH 29

6:40PM XAVIER - UCLA

9:05PM LOUISVILLE - UNC

The above is confirmed from WKRC's web site. WHIO has the same schedule for Friday night, but I haven't been able to determine if they are flex or swing. It's possible but unlikely we may get different coverage for some periods of time. For Saturday, I can almost guarantee WKRC will have a constant feed for Xavier, and WHIO will carry Xavier but will be a swing station, so look for bonus coverage as a possibility. For the 9:05 game on Saturday, I am assuming both WKRC and WHIO will be on flex feeds.

Q: WHAT ARE FLEX, SWING AND CONSTANT STATIONS?
A: During the tournament CBS classifies its affiliates for scheduling purposes on the following basis:
FLEX STATIONS have no specific geographical interest in either team and CBS has the flexibility to show the best game available during that tournament session.
SWING STATIONS act as a middle ground between FLEX and CONSTANT and have a natural interest in the game that has been assigned (Conference interest for example). SWING stations may be moved to a more competitive contest if the original assignment becomes a “blow out”.
CONSTANT STATIONS are the home market stations and have the highest interest in one of the two teams on the court. Although the network may briefly take viewers to another contest for critical action it will return to the original game in a matter of a few minutes.