I don't work for TWC so YMMV but...

* I believe they have standarized on the SA 8300 and that has HDMI. I've had it for 2 years and it's a good box.
* The HD box, etc. adds about $17 month in costs.

Would you believe $0.50 Extra per month for
a) Digital Cable Upgrade (that includes the "15 free HD channels")
b) HD-DVR Service

I had to take the "price lock" guarantee (iow "contract" for 24 month, w/ earl term fee $150, and option to renew at end of term -- but not at the same price). Tired of folks switching I guess

Would you believe $0.50 Extra per month for
a) Digital Cable Upgrade (that includes the "15 free HD channels")
b) HD-DVR Service

I had to take the "price lock" guarantee (iow "contract" for 24 month, w/ earl term fee $150, and option to renew at end of term -- but not at the same price). Tired of folks switching I guess

And when that "contract" is up, they'll jump you up to full price without notice, so you better be cognizant of when the contract ends, if you decide to cancel or change service.... ;)

Could the problem be the meter on my sharp aquos is not reading correctly for my signal strength?

That is not a signal strength reading, it may be best thought of as a "signal quality" reading.

Many factors can effect OTA reception and also what the "numbers" on meters like that show.

I used my amp antenna and my fm is not amped and the same results. I turn on the tv WXIX it is in the 40's to 50's if I leave it for 15 minutes turned off set to WXIX.. I change the Channel and then it goes from 65 to 67..nmy signal is works for WCPO if i use the cheap the cheap HD Antena that amps on the fm i get it in the uper 60's to low 70's. I can some times get 14.2-6 in the 90's but it usally in the 80's. Could the problem be the meter on my sharp aquos is not reading correctly for my signal strength?
As a Jim mentioned above, the FM antenna is designed to be "centered" on UHF frequencies (6-7). In layman's terms (the only terms I know ;) ), that means, the farther away from those frequencies you are trying to get, the worse the reception. The only digital channel in Cincinnati that is UHF is WCPO (channel 10, remapped to 9.1/9.2), which you said does best. You also mentioned KET, which is VHF channel 24, the next-closest Cincinnati digital station. After that, all the Cincinnati digitals are in the 28-35 range. Standard TV antennas (dipoles and whatnot), are typically designed to be centered in the channel 32-34 range (someone correct me if I am a little off), so that puts you squarely in the middle of all the channels you are trying to get, and never "too" far from any of them, depending on antenna type, location, etc. You mentioned getting WKOI, but while that is at channel 39 (even farther away from channel 7 on your FM antenna), it comes from a different direction, and perhaps your antenna has better reception from that direction.

"Technically" (intentionally in quotes), your UHF (FM) antenna shouldn't get anything other than UHF, but since you are getting something, you are obviously close enough to the towers to pull in the signals anyway. I get WCPO in the upper 80s/lower 90s up here with a "VHF only" (supposedly) antenna in my attic.

I'm far from the expert here, but my guess is that the amplified TV antenna is too much. If I am correct here (again, going from what I have read), the amp not only boosts the signal, but it boosts all the accompanying "noise" and interference. So when you are so close that you don't need amplification, the amplified noise can cause you to have problems. As for the FM antenna... well, it's not meant for TV (as explained above). The fact that they are seeing almost the same results could really be coincidence. I bet you'd have better luck with $6 TV rabbit ears (unamplified) from Wal-Mart.

Have you tried your TV antenna without it being plugged in and amplified? I don't know how the internal wiring is, in terms of whether it will work without being plugged in, but I'd give that a shot.

P.S. Not to be picky, but there's no such thing as an "HDTV antenna".... it's just marketing. Antennas are antennas, and if you have an ATSC (digital) tuner and an HD-ready TV, you'll get HD broadcasts.

P.P.S. Go to www.tvfool.com and put in your address and approximate antenna height (where it is mounted, from the ground outside). When the data pulls up, hit "shift/print screen" and then open MS Paint and ctrl-v paste in the screen shot. Use the crop tool to cut out everything but the channel listings, and then save it as a .jpg, and attach it to a post (use the "manage attachments" button below and add it). That'll give us a better idea of what you need.

And when that "contract" is up, they'll jump you up to full price without notice, so you better be cognizant of when the contract ends, if you decide to cancel or change service.... ;)

Oh yeah, I know 'dat....They want you to "get addicted"; and we will!

(They are supposed to send a renewal/termination letter 30-60 days prior to when it ends -- which in my case will always be around March Madness -- score one for TWC)

With out the amp on my signal is worse. Like I said I dont have any money to go buy a new antenna or even to make one unless the parts are real cheap to make one.

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/8781/antennatn5.jpg

Was just guessing on the hieght since I dont know the exact height. I cant use a outdoor antenna they dont' allow it since I am in a condo.

Hell I strung 2 coat hangers spread out and I still get the same singnal setting on WXIX. I get a higher signal strength on wlwt now from it. even on 14.2-6 I am getting a better strength at 91. WCPO is a little lower sitting around 64.

May singnal strength now sits at between 67-69 on WXIX.whitch is better then I was getting before.

pjpjpjpj, I think the underlying themes of what you are trying to say are good, but a lot of this is off a bit. I have tried to clarify below:

As a Jim mentioned above, the FM antenna is designed to be "centered" on UHF frequencies (6-7). In layman's terms (the only terms I know ;) ), that means, the farther away from those frequencies you are trying to get, the worse the reception.FM is actually between TV channels 6 and 7 (right above channel 6, but there are other "things" between the "FM band" and TV channel 7. Also, channels 2-13 are VHF, not UHF. The entire FM band between channels 6 and 7 is then obviously VHF as well. An FM antenna is a VHF antenna, but tuned for the specific frequencies used in FM (87.5 to 108.0 MHz). Using an antenna for frequencies it is not designed for is not recommended.

The only digital channel in Cincinnati that is UHF is WCPO (channel 10, remapped to 9.1/9.2), which you said does best.Channel 10 is VHF.

You also mentioned KET, which is VHF channel 24, the next-closest Cincinnati digital station. After that, all the Cincinnati digitals are in the 28-35 range.All of these are UHF (TV 14-69 are UHF).

Standard TV antennas (dipoles and whatnot), are typically designed to be centered in the channel 32-34 range (someone correct me if I am a little off), so that puts you squarely in the middle of all the channels you are trying to get, and never "too" far from any of them, depending on antenna type, location, etc. You mentioned getting WKOI, but while that is at channel 39 (even farther away from channel 7 on your FM antenna), it comes from a different direction, and perhaps your antenna has better reception from that direction.This is not really true. A dipole antenna can be tuned for any channel. Generally speaking a dipole could be constructed with two quarter-wavelength rods connected at the center making one half-wavelength dipole. Wavelength is obviously a function of the frequency (To get the wavelength take the speed of light and divide it by the frequency. For example, for FM frequency 94.9MHz:

299792458 / 94900000 = approx 3.2m in length

So, an FM (VHF) dipole antenna might consist of two 1.5 meter wires or rods "connected" in a particular fashion at the center.

A UHF dipole antenna would be much shorter. For example, WLWT-DT broadcasts on channel 35 (UHF). Channel 35 is at 599MHz (plus/minus 3 MHz as each channel is 6MHz wide). So the wavelength of 599MHz is:

299792458 / 599000000 = approx .5m in length

So, a UHF dipole antenna tuned specifically for WLWT-DT might consist of two 25cm wires or rods "connected" at the center.

"Technically" (intentionally in quotes), your UHF (FM) antenna shouldn't get anything other than UHF, but since you are getting something, you are obviously close enough to the towers to pull in the signals anyway. I get WCPO in the upper 80s/lower 90s up here with a "VHF only" (supposedly) antenna in my attic.Switch all the UHF references with VHF and I think you're OK here.

I'm far from the expert here, but my guess is that the amplified TV antenna is too much. If I am correct here (again, going from what I have read), the amp not only boosts the signal, but it boosts all the accompanying "noise" and interference. So when you are so close that you don't need amplification, the amplified noise can cause you to have problems. As for the FM antenna... well, it's not meant for TV (as explained above). The fact that they are seeing almost the same results could really be coincidence. I bet you'd have better luck with $6 TV rabbit ears (unamplified) from Wal-Mart.A better choice is a $3.99 bow tie from Radio Shack. I have had good luck with one of these in the Delhi area (right by Mt. St. Joe's and Bailey Place). Get it by a window, preferably one facing the towers. If it doesn't work for you, take it back and get your $3.99 back.

Edit: Sorry Jimp2244, I didn't see your post until after I had posted the below, and much of the below duplicates your info, but don't have time to edit it right now so will leave it as is :

TV Lo VHF (ch 2-6) is 54~88MHZ.

FM broadcast band is 88~108 MHZ (VHF).

TV Hi VHF (ch 7~13) is 174~216MHZ.

TV UHF (ch 14~69) is 470~806MHZ.

Any "paperclip" or "coathanger" for an antenna can pick up some signal on any frequency if the signal is strong enough at receive location, but paperclips aren't very effective antennas, and FM antennas aren't very effective on TV frequencies either.

The lower the frequency, the longer the wavelength, and the more significant the difference in wavelength. For instance, a 1/2 wave dipole for TV channel 2 (54~60MHZ) is about 8.5 feet long. But a 1/2 wave diple for Broadcast FM at 98MHZ (only 44 MHZ away from TV channel 2) is only 4.75 Feet long. But, a UHF 1/2 wave dipole on 470 MHZ(ch 14) is only 12" long, whearas a UHF 1/2 wave dipole on 806 (ch 69) MHZ is only 7" long, a difference of only 5" in length for the 336MHZ "between" ch 14 and 69 .... See here : http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html

In other words, like I said earlier, it isn't a good idea to use FM antenna for broadcast TV reception, as they are not very effective on TV frequencies, as FM antnena is not resonant on TV reception frequencies - Typically, FM antennas perform best near middle of FM band (around 98 MHZ) - They will work a little better on TV channel 6 than TV channel 5 and so on (but not channel 7, as it's a long way above the FM band). Furthermore, if you have strong FM signals, they are going to be much stronger than anything else being received by the antenna, and the tv's tuner(or an amplifier) can easily be overloaded by them and cause problems/interference, often only on certian channels.


Like I said I dont have any money to go buy a new antenna or even to make one unless the parts are real cheap to make one.


The TVfool site predicts very strong signals for your location, so generally speaking you probably don't need too much antenna in terms of getting enough "signal strength" as long as attenuation issues from having antenna indoors (for instance, if there is a brick wall between you and the transmitters to your East(SE for WCVN) it's going to attenuate signals a lot more than if you could place your antenna near a East facing window. Besides "signal strength" there are issues such as multipath ("ghosts" on analogs).

You could try a homemade antenna like pjpjpjpj uses (4 bay UHF bowtie - It won't perform very well on VHF for WCPO, but as strong as the signals should be at your location it may very well work for WCPO digital as well), or an inexpensive antenna like this $4 one from RS would perform better than a FM antenna on UHF, and probably on VHF Channel 10 for WCPO as well :

http://www.radioshack.com/sm-uhf-outline-bow-tie-antenna--pi-2062017.html

But note that if you don't have one, you also will need to use a 300Ohm 75Ohm transformer(costs a few bucks) with that antenna to hook it up to your TV ...

AS for the amp, the predicted signal levels from TVfool for The cincinnati stations for your location indicate an amp should not be required, and in fact strong enough that "overload" issues could be a problem ... HOWEVER, that's based on antenna being outdoors, with antenna indoors, while it's possible amp could still "Hurt" you(you just may not be "noticing it") for various reasons(including the "overload" issue) or could help you, especially "seemingly so" when you are using a FM antenna for TV reception ....

Keep in mind, there are many other issues besides "signal strength" issues which effect OTA reception, such as multipath echoes (note that the more directivity antenna has, the better it "rejects" multipath -- An antenna's directivity is dependant upon it's design, a UHF "silver sensor" for instance has better directivity than the UHF "outline" bowtie at link above) ...

With analog OTA TV signals, WEak signal = "snow" or "fuzziness", Multipath=ghosting, and various sorts of "static" or "squiggly lines" = interference often created on certian channels because the the front-end of receiver or an "amp" isoverloaded(because an amp is being used), or with indoor antennas often created by nearby household applicances or electronic gear - especially on VHF ..

These issues are usually very frequency/channel specific - for instance, you may have some bad multipath conditions involving reception of one station on say, channel 31, but it might be fine, on say, channel 12 ... Same thing with various sorts of interference ...

That being said, still While they are still on the air, looking at your analog OTA reception can often tell you a lot about what the digital reception is like ... With analog, we see any reception impairments right on screen, with digital, you usually don't have a way to diagnose what is going on and what causing "problems" other than a "bouncing around" signal meter often = multipath or interference problems .... And, generally speaking, the "better" you can get the analog OTA stations to look, the better your digital reception will be as well .... (although, you don't have to worry too much about analog lo-VHF reception such as from WLWT 5, as there are no digitals on lo-VHF in cincinnati) ....

May singnal strength now sits at between 67-69 on WXIX.whitch is better then I was getting before.

Again, It's very unlikely that's a signal strength indication, even if the meter is labeled that way right on the screen.

It's a signal quality reading, that actually has nothing to do with the "OTA signal" itself. Basically It's looking at how "easy" the digital data is to decode that is contained within the OTA signal being sent over the airwaves ... A fairly weak but very "clean" signal can show high readings on those things, and a very strong signal that's laden with interference or multipath the receiver can't correct for can cause low, or NO readings, or "bouncing around" readings.

There are some exceptions when conditions that cause fading occur, but Generally, the actual "signal strength" from a station doesn't change or fluctuate much(usually not very much at all) at any given receive location. Now, if you suddenly place a "brick wall" near the receive antenna and between the transmit and receive antenna, the received signal strength is certianly going to go down ....

In any case, as long as you aren't getting any "dropouts" (loss of signal, "freezes in the video/losses of audio, or any data loss/etc), I wouldn't worry about what the numbers on your signal meter says. If you don't have any such "dropouts" Higher, or "steadier" numbers on the meter aren't going to make the picture any better ...

MY BAD, GUYS! :o:o:o I switched "VHF" and "UHF" in my entire post. Oops!!!!! I did know what I meant, though. ;)

Jim, as for the antenna "tuning", I was saying "standard" antennas - seems like most of the ones you see mentioned on all the current OTA forums are aimed for that central "sweet spot" in the low 30s, where most digital channels these days seem to congregate. You can, of course, adjust sizing to "aim" at different frequencies.

Rob -

From your tvfool plot, you shouldn't have any problem getting the Cincinnati "downtown" stations with a small antenna - you are "line of sight" and half the distance that I am, and I get them all in the 90s (some locked at 100%).

Attached below, I give you (drumroll, please) the simplest, cheapest, most laughable homemade antenna idea I can come up with. Marvel at my MS Paint skills. :) I bet it gets you all your channels.

From the "basic home stuff" list, you need 3 wire shirt hangers (from the cleaners or whatever), some sort of wire cutter, some tape, a ruler, and a piece of cardboard that is about 10" x 15" (cut open a cereal box and lay it flat or something).
Then, you need a 4:1 (300 ohm->75 ohm) balun, the little thing you see that has a female coax jack on one end, and two wires with screw-post "C" clips on the other. I saw one at Wal-Mart for $3.99, but if you have a junk box of old electrical stuff laying around, you might have one already (I had two from years ago - didn't think I would need them again!).

1. Chop the tops off the hangers and bend them straight. They should be at least 28" long. Cut two of them into (2) 14"-long pieces, and bend those in half into V's (the red part below) so they are about 7" long. The tips of the V's should be 3" apart as shown. Make the angles as tight as possible. Using your cutter, or a knife or sandpaper or whatever, scrape the V area until the paint is gone and it is shiny (probably easier to do this before you bend them, actually). Tape them to the cardboard as shown, where the tips (pointing together) are about an inch apart, and the two sets (point to point vertically in the sketch) are about 6.5 to 7" apart.

2. Then cut two more pieces of hanger (the blue lines) into 7" lengths, strip and shine up the tips where they touch the red V's, and tape them tightly to the Vs (and the cardboard). Finally, tape the two "C" clips from the balun (green) to the junction where the V's and the blue connector "rods" meet. Tape the balun down to keep it secure. Be sure that all of the places where the red, blue, and green meet are stripped and shiny-clean, and in good contact.

3. Screw a piece of standard (75-ohm RG6) coax - the shorter, the better - to the balun and to the antenna jack on the back of your TV.

Do a channel scan. I bet you get all the local channels really well - for what likely is the cheapest antenna you could possibly have, short of a single coat hanger stuck in the tuner jack.

If you have to buy the balun, you could just spend about the same and get a rabbit-ears antenna... but you don't get the "I did it myself" thrill when all the channels come in at 90%+. :)

Disclaimer: This is intended to be "omnidirectional" and not use the cardboard as a reflector. So don't cover the cardboard with aluminum foil or anything. If you do, the wires need to be about 3.5" off the cardboard, which would (likely) require some wood, screws, and washers to accomplish. I was just trying to go super-cheap here. ;)

I have one of the round 300 to 75ohm comectied where the clips broke off will that work. I can hook a coax cable to it. on the 7" verticals what should i be using thier wire or wire fron the coat hangers?

I have one of the round 300 to 75ohm comectied where the clips broke off will that work. I can hook a coax cable to it. on the 7" verticals what should i be using thier wire or wire fron the coat hangers?

Any kind of wire, basically - the heavier (and solid), the better - as long as it is in good contact with everything.

That goes for all the wire, by the way - I started with shirt hangers for mine but later replaced it with some 10ga copper house wiring that I had laying around. But since you are on a budget... :)

Jim and Nitewatchman,

To follow up on all of my posting a few weeks ago... I have two antennas in the attic now, each on a separate HDHomerun (4 tuners total available). The HDHR config program gives "signal strength", "signal quality", and "symbol quality".

The antennas are both homemade DB4s, with no reflector, thus "omnidirectional". I experimented with reflectors on one or both (not worth it), and also with a rod-reflected Gray-Hoverman, which gave me solid 100% on the downtown Cincinnati stations but was worse on the channels that are from the sides (WKOI, WSTR), and got nothing at all from Dayton (since it was directional towards Cincinnati). I ditched it for those reasons, and went back to the DB4's.

With a little moving and tweaking, I am now getting all the Cincinnati locals in the 90s, or even 100%, on "signal quality", and pretty much locked at 100% in the other two categories. I also get Dayton ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, and Fox, all with varying numbers but all solid 100% on the "symbol quality" (which generally is 100% or 0%)... so therefore, I get them just fine. I still can not get a lock on Dayton CW, but I will live without it. Hopefully, after the switch next Feb, CinCW gets some HD programming... though I don't typically watch much on that station except the morning WKRC show after 7 am. ;)

I know you guys have been proponents all along of trying commercial store-bought antennas (especially since outdoor mounting was not an option for me), but I just wanted to say that I am a believer that a well-built, dimensionally-correct DIY can do a fine job. Thanks for all your advice and tips - you guys were a lot of help. Last night I made the final tweaks in the attic and put the ladder away. :D

Would wire from a exstention cord work well?

For the placement is higher better?

know you guys have been proponents all along of trying commercial store-bought antennas (especially since outdoor mounting was not an option for me),


I have nothing against home-brew antennas. I've made many of them, but not for broadband TV reception. IMO, Whatever "works" well for you is the "right" antenna for you (even if it's a "FM" antenna, just saying a FM only antenna is not going to *perform* very well for TV signals), regardless of whether it's one you bought at a store, or is one that you made ....

However, I also agree with the comments here, for the most part :

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/build.html

Other than involving simple antenna designs, or antennas such as single frequency yagis for use over a relatively narrow range of frequencies(say, 1 TV channel) --- Designing an antenna that works well over a relatively wide range of frequencies as is needed for TV reception in most cases is USUALLY a VERY complex undertaking.

That being said, from what little I've read about them, I think the sorts of UHF antenna designs you are working with make it much more possible for the home-brewer to build an antenna that's "has better performance than a folded dipole", probably over a fairly wide range of frequencies ... And, that includes making "clones" of "panel antennas" (i.e. 4 bay bowties/etc), such as are used in commercial antenna designs such as DB4, DB2, CM4221/etc ... I basically think of those 'Panel antenna' desgins as (very basically) "stacking" multiple UHF 1/2 wavelength folded dipoles(like the $4 radio shack outline bowtie) to increaase gain/directivity, and putting a reflector behind them to increase directivity/improve F/B ratio ...

And I certianly appreciate that you are telling others about these sorts of homemade antenna designs ....

But, as it pertains to much of our discussion, when someone posts their TVfool plot for a certian receive location and asks what sort of "antenna" they should use ... The performance characteristics(gain/directivity on specific frequencies/etc) of certian, well known "commerical" antennas are fairly well known, but someone's home-brew antenna isn't in any given case. Hence why we might say something like, "you might want to try a CM4221 or DB4 (or we could also say a 4-bay bowtie "generically") for UHF reception and for best results on VHF, use a VHF/UHF combiner and a Winegard YA-6713 for Hi-VHF (for WCPO-DT and post transistion WKRC reception) ...."


as for the antenna "tuning", I was saying "standard" antennas - seems like most of the ones you see mentioned on all the current OTA forums are aimed for that central "sweet spot" in the low 30s,

The "mid 30's" is at about the middle of the UHF band, that's why some antenna designs are going to perform best there.

Especially perhaps regarding many typical small~medium sized VHF/UHF combo designs(I don't know about the "home-brew" antenna designs you're working with regarding that), but Not necessarily "most" "standard" antennas. See the gain chart comparsions for common commercially available antennas here :

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html


where most digital channels these days seem to congregate.


That's true for some markets, but not for others. Dayton digitals for example are all across the UHF band, on 18,30,39,41,50,51,58 currently, and will be 16,18,30,39,41,50,51 post-transistion. Note: Yeah, WKOI-DT transmits from within Cincinnati market, but is considered a Dayton market station, because it's community of license is Richmond, IN, within Dayton market, even though the transmitter is 30 miles away from Richmond.

Update: Almost forgot :


Hopefully, after the switch next Feb, CinCW gets some HD programming...


Keep in mind that analog shut off will have no effect on the bandwidth available from WKRC-DT ...

WKYT-DT Lexington KY is multicasting 2 HD streams, CBS HD and CW HD, they transcode both to 720p for broadcast ... that is not a good idea IMO as it pertians to picture quality issues during difficult to encode/bandwidth demanding content ...

Last night I made the final tweaks in the attic and put the ladder away.


Careful, you might "jinx yourself" ...

As, It's possible you might have to get that ladder back out when the leaves come back on trees, wind blows tree limbs around when leaves are on trees/etc/etc/etc ;)

Somewhere in this long thread I posted a GREAT youtube video link that shows the home made antenna I made using coat hangers...a piece of 2x4...some washers and screws...and a balun...

Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWQhlmJTMzw

Would wire from a exstention cord work well?

For the placement is higher better?
Higher is (in almost every case) better. Ya know, unless higher means "behind some high obstruction" or something. ;)

Extension cord wire is not as desirable because it is twisted strands, and not solid. Everything I have read on the DIY Antenna forums indicates that solid performs better than stranded. But, as with all of this, "try it and see".
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Somewhere in this long thread I posted a GREAT youtube video link that shows the home made antenna I made using coat hangers...a piece of 2x4...some washers and screws...and a balun...

Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWQhlmJTMzw

That's the model I have two of in my attic, except I used 10ga romex in place of the hangers. That also allowed me to keep the insulation on the "rods" in all spots except where they contact the dipoles. Having tried both metals, the copper works *significantly* better than the cheap, thin, steel hangers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I have nothing against home-brew antennas. I've made many of them, but not for broadband TV reception. IMO, Whatever "works" well for you is the "right" antenna for you
I've only made a few, but they were all for "broadband" application. I had to have it in my attic (not outdoors), I didn't want to have a rotor or switch (since I am doing "DVR" recording without being there to manually change it), and I'm in a good location to get both Cincinnati and Dayton, all on one antenna, so I needed the best omnidirectional antenna that I could find or make. From all the various models that I have read about - both commercial and DIY "clones" - the 4-bay/8-bay without reflectors (making them "omnidirectional") appear to perform the best, in terms of gain, from front, back, and sides. I thought the SBGH was supposed to do better (which is why I built one) but, at least in my experience, it was weaker from the back and bad from the sides. As you said though, what I have is "right" for me. :)

Other than involving simple antenna designs, or antennas such as single frequency yagis for use over a relatively narrow range of frequencies(say, 1 TV channel) --- Designing an antenna that works well over a relatively wide range of frequencies as is needed for TV reception in most cases is USUALLY a VERY complex undertaking.
Personally, I've found it a lot of fun and very rewarding, and I can whip up a DB4 clone in less than 45 minutes. :D

That being said, from what little I've read about them, I think the sorts of UHF antenna designs you are working with make it much more possible for the home-brewer to build an antenna that's "has better performance than a folded dipole", probably over a fairly wide range of frequencies ... And, that includes making "clones" of "panel antennas" (i.e. 4 bay bowties/etc), such as are used in commercial antenna designs such as DB4, DB2, CM4221/etc ... I basically think of those 'Panel antenna' desgins as (very basically) "stacking" multiple UHF 1/2 wavelength folded dipoles(like the $4 radio shack outline bowtie) to increaase gain/directivity, and putting a reflector behind them to increase directivity/improve F/B ratio ...

And I certianly appreciate that you are telling others about these sorts of homemade antenna designs ....
The way I figure it, you guys are the technical experts and I can just provide a little personal experience from the "antennas for dummies" point of view. :p Of course, when I goof up and accidentally switch "UHF" and "VHF", it only confuses the newbies out there. So I'll try to pay more attention. That's what I get for posting while I'm supposed to be working. :o

But, as it pertains to much of our discussion, when someone posts their TVfool plot for a certian receive location and asks what sort of "antenna" they should use ... The performance characteristics(gain/directivity on specific frequencies/etc) of certian, well known "commerical" antennas are fairly well known, but someone's home-brew antenna isn't in any given case. Hence why we might say something like, "you might want to try a CM4221 or DB4 (or we could also say a 4-bay bowtie "generically") for UHF reception and for best results on VHF, use a VHF/UHF combiner and a Winegard YA-6713 for Hi-VHF (for WCPO-DT and post transistion WKRC reception) ...."
I'm certainly not trying to step on those toes... it just seemed in Rob's case, from his tvfool plot, that he is close enough to get the Cincinnati stations with something very simple, and he stated that he didn't have any money to buy an antenna, so I figured I would suggest something that was very cheap and very easy. But I'll leave the general posters looking for more in-depth info to you guys.

That's true for some markets, but not for others. Dayton digitals for example are all across the UHF band, on 18,30,39,41,50,51,58 currently, and will be 16,18,30,39,41,50,51 post-transistion.
True - I just was trying to say that if you aim for the middle, you are never as far away from one end or the other as if you aim for one end, ya know? That's why just about every single "homebrew" antenna design you see on the various forums out there is dimensioned for the low 30's, to have the best chance at covering the whole UHF range. And for newbies like me, who can't (or don't want to) wrap their heads around calculating half-wavelength dimensions for certain stations and designing frequency-specific models, the easy solution - especially if you are close to town and should get the Cincinnati stations easily - is to shoot for that middle-of-the-range spot.

Keep in mind that analog shut off will have no effect on the bandwidth available from WKRC-DT ...
Yeah, I was just hoping, you know, that they would think, "hey, everybody is digital now, and everyone is multicasting, so let's do something to make our broadcast more desirable" :D I have to think that, after the switchover, stations will feel "peer" (?) pressure to get more and more HD content, wouldn't you think?

Once again, Nitewatchman, I hope none of this sounded defensive (or offensive) - it's just that sometimes when you guys start posting the really technical stuff, newbies like me sorta glaze over.... so I was trying to "dumb some of it down" a little. :)

I hope WKRC will eventually put the CW in HD.

Out of the blue WXIX is back up to 80-82 wierd. I did not change a thing still using the fm antenna.

Atmospheric conditions...Fallen tree removed...Could be any # of reasons for the swing...Eg...ATSC tuner up and running in my headend with signal in the upper 90's...Was perfect for months...Out of the blue...for no reason at all...signal dropped to the upper 40's...Had to climb the tower and reset the antenna to get strength back to acceptable levels...The only reason I could come up with...is that the originally everything was set up in the winter...No leaves...Problems began in spring...when the leaves began to appear...My partner just could not understand that some leaves could interfer with signal to the degree it was affected...Still thinks I am a crackpot for thinking that...but no problems since the readjustment...

WCPO is now between 75-77 when it normally is between 67-73.

...originally everything was set up in the winter...No leaves...Problems began in spring...when the leaves began to appear...My partner just could not understand that some leaves could interfer with signal to the degree it was affected...

SHHHHHH!!!! You'll jinx me! :D

WCPO is now between 75-77 when it normally is between 67-73.

Last few days: rainy and overcast.
Today: sunny and clear.

Just a thought. ;)

I plan on building my own antenna (for fun!) and comparing it to my existing CM4221. I took the shield off of my CM4221 and it ends up looking a LOT like the homemade one in the youtube video above (except mast is metal instead of wood :) ):

http://www.bruhub.com/blogPics/IMG_4372.JPG

Should be a fun experiment!

Bruce

I plan on building my own antenna (for fun!) and comparing it to my existing CM4221. I took the shield off of my CM4221 and it ends up looking a LOT like the homemade one in the youtube video above (except mast is metal instead of wood :) ):

http://www.bruhub.com/blogPics/IMG_4372.JPG

Should be a fun experiment!

Bruce

Where in town are you and how does that antenna do, reception-wise?

And what are the dimensions of the 4221 as you have it (distance from vertex of one bowtie to the next, spread of the bowtie at the tips, etc.)? My understanding is that the model on the youtube video (which is the general instructions that you see on many forums for that model, and what I used) follow the same dimensions.

Where in town are you and how does that antenna do, reception-wise?

I'm curious also...

As a side note...I have begun installing antenna's for DTV reception...So if anyone here is needing an antenna installed for reasonable prices just PM me...:)

From all the various models that I have read about - both commercial and DIY "clones" - the 4-bay/8-bay without reflectors (making them "omnidirectional") appear to perform the best, in terms of gain, from front, back, and sides.


I don't think those sorts of antennas would provide an omnidirectional pattern, it would probably be bi-directional without the reflector on it more than anything else.

There is some good reading involving issues involved for designing a omnidirectional antenna in this article, the pics are pretty cool too :

http://www.cebik.com/vhf/ex6.html


Personally, I've found it a lot of fun and very rewarding, and I can whip up a DB4 clone in less than 45 minutes.


Yes, very cool that worked out for you. it's fun stuff. I did not intend to be confrontational nor was I attempting to engage in a debate, In fact I thought I made it clear that basically, I thought the homemade antenna options you've been providing info on are "pretty cool" and useful info.

My only "agenda" and goal and intention for all my posts(including the one you responded to) here have allways been for them to (hopefully) be informative and accurate, as well as hopefully somewhat understandable by those interested in the subject matter involved.

Anyway, Perhaps you might have fun with this UHF TV antenna design as well :

LPDA's for the 400~800MHZ Television Range (http://www.cebik.com/vhf/48lpid.html)

Also, here's a LPDA calculator you might have fun with :

http://www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/jolt/345/LogCalc.html

Also, although most of the info/articles below are "ham" stuff, a lot of it is also applicable to making any antenna. So, If you haven't already ran across it there's a lot of great info here for anyone who wants to increase their Fun and knowledge of antennas and antenna building(lots of fun pics to look at as well) :

http://www.dxzone.com/cgi-bin/dir/jump2.cgi?ID=719

And here :

http://www.cebik.com/antsite.html

And here :

http://www.ac6v.com/antprojects.htm


The way I figure it, you guys are the technical experts


I do not think of myself as an expert ..


But I'll leave the general posters looking for more in-depth info to you guys.


Just don't leave it all to jimp2244 and a few of the other folks(such Plughplover, William, DrDon, splicer010/etc) which have jumped in and helped occasionally regarding these issues ;) ...

I enjoy reading more than posting, and I'd kinda like to go into mostly lurking, but rarely posting mode here one of these days :)


Of course, when I goof up and accidentally switch "UHF" and "VHF",

We all make mistakes every now and then, it's not a problem IMO ..
In any case, I for one appreciate it when I make mistakes and others point it out/correct them ...


it just seemed in Rob's case, from his tvfool plot, that he is close enough to get the Cincinnati stations with something very simple, and he stated that he didn't have any money to buy an antenna, so I figured I would suggest something that was very cheap and very easy.


Yes, and if you notice in an earlier response of mine to one of his posts, in addition to the $4 RS antenna, I also said he might want to try one of the homebrew antennas like you are using as one possible option ....


True - I just was trying to say that if you aim for the middle, you are never as far away from one end or the other as if you aim for one end, ya know?


That's the general idea for some of the antenna designs out there, including some commercial antennas ....


And for newbies like me, who can't (or don't want to) wrap their heads around calculating half-wavelength dimensions for certain stations and designing frequency-specific models, the easy solution - especially if you are close to town and should get the Cincinnati stations easily - is to shoot for that middle-of-the-range spot.


Sorry, my eyes are glazing over from reading some of that ;)

First of all, I believe as jimp2244 demonstrated "calculating 1/2 wavelength dimensions" is very simple, but if it's still too hard, here's a chart that shows you what they are, per TV channel # :

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html

Also, making a simple frequency specific antenna(a 1/2 wave dipole - i.e. "rabbit ears", a full wave UHF loop or a folded dipole) is the simplest sort of effective antenna design you can build that I'm aware of, but they don't offer much gain(none really) or directivity.

Making a frequency specific Yagi is a bit more complicated than that, but it's not necessarily all that difficult, either. See here :

http://radio.meteor.free.fr/us/antenna.html

http://vk5dj.mountgambier.org/Yagi/Yagi.html

http://fermi.la.asu.edu/w9cf/yagipub/index.html

I played around with making a 10 element UHF Yagi few years back for various UHF TV channels(only 1channel at a time, I just cut the elements a little shorter for different channels) "just for fun" using some copper tubing+PVC pipe I had laying around.


Once again, Nitewatchman, I hope none of this sounded defensive (or offensive) -


None of it sounded offensive to me ....


it's just that sometimes when you guys start posting the really technical stuff, newbies like me sorta glaze over.... so I was trying to "dumb some of it down" a little. :) ...... and I can just provide a little personal experience from the "antennas for dummies" point of view.

I think Simplifying some of these matters and staying accurate/avoiding posting misinformation can sometimes be a difficult task. Mostly becuase I think often(but not allways), you have to understand the "technical stuff" before you can "dumb it down" and have it still be accurate ...

And, as a reader, I know on forums such as this it can be quite difficult to sort out what is "real accurate information, and what is misinformation.

So, by all means, the more folks we have that can do that, the better ....

Atmospheric conditions...Fallen tree removed...Could be any # of reasons for the swing...


Yep. And I suspect that often when such reception impariments occur, multiple factors are often involved.

The only reason I could come up with...is that the originally everything was set up in the winter...No leaves...Problems began in spring...when the leaves began to appear...My partner just could not understand that some leaves could interfer with signal to the degree it was affected...Still thinks I am a crackpot for thinking that...but no problems since the readjustment...

"Strictly" speaking Trees/leaves attenuate signal moreso the higher the frequency involved and, obviously to varying degrees, seasonally for deducious trees+vegatation. AVSforum member "geekgirl" posted a link to an interesting detailed study(unfortuntely I don't have link to that handy currently) concerning just "how much" attenuation is involved(even concerning various different tree species/etc). One interesting thing( I thought anyway) that came out of the study is that the "wood" part of the tree causes the most atteunation - which is not something I thought a lot about before, since it's there "all the time", unlike the leaves.

I do know that Here, in a very forested area, On mid-High UHF frequencies, measurements(albeit fairly rough ones using attenuators added into feedline to drop down to threshold for DTV reception+note the attenuation added in winter vs summer/etc) seem to indicate about a 5db difference for the maximum attenuation when leaves are on vs. leaves off in winter.

I also suspect that the sap moving around "differently" at different times of year may have an effect, and suspect the moisture content of all the "tree parts" in general(including leaves) can have a effect as well.

But often in cases when they seem to effect reception in a variable way(when wind blows tree limbs around, or leaves on in summer vs. leaves off in winter), I don't think it is often, specifically the "attenuation" factor of the leaves/trees that is involved(or vice-versa, receiver being overloaded by a bit "too strong" signals when leaves are off). Instead, I think it's often something more complicated is going on, mostly probably including issues involving the receiver's AGC circuit and possibly in some or many cases involving changes in multipath conditions at receive location.

And again, when it is the case that when such "reception impairments" occur variably or seasonably, although it may seem that "leaves being on vs off" is the only evident cause, I suspect oftentimes, there are other factors involved as well ...

For instance, to name a few, Issues involving such things as terrain issues+changes in the "refractive" index of atmosphere when "local" 1edge or 2edge or even "barely LOS" reception is being acheived, ground reflections/multipath conditions/etc ...

While tree/leaves don't "cause" multipath directly, for instance, leaves being on trees and the extra attenuation involved for some signal paths for multipath echoes "change" multipath conditions vs. the leaves being off trees ... Also, I think some (or oftentimes?) these sorts of factors can end up being very frequency specific ...

Its a bit difficult to explain properly, but Here, for example, in winter, if I have antenna below about 28 Feet on side of tower, I run into problems with the Dayton digitals on higher frequencies(ch 50,51+58) when wind blows tree limbs around, but ONLY when the leaves are off trees AND if temp is above freezing ... and I can also "see" the problem directly on analog 45, and WRCX LP 40, but on none of the lower Dayton channels ...

It looks like horrible "dynamic multipath" ghosting on analog 45, variable as the wind blows the tree limbs around ... But, temp below freezing(or so) in winter, or leaves on trees in Summer, or raise the antenna a few more feet(winter or summer), no problems whatsoever .... Also, I've noticed, with the antenna a little "lower" the actual signal strength(such as from analog LP 40, it's very evident there) varies greatly on those upper channels with the antenna a little lower between for instance, summer+winter or even Daytime in winter vs. a calm winter evening(better) ... I suspect the latter involves the "refractive" capability of atmosphere, and terrain issues, even though I'm either "almost" LOS, or just "barely LOS" for them ...

But in any case, what I'm trying to "demonstrate" here is that *many* factors can impair/effect reception on a very "receive location specific" basis .....

Note: I also don't mean to say changes in Trees/leaves/etc. or the other issues mentioned are going to noticably effect everyone, or even a lot of folks, just some ...


As a side note...I have begun installing antenna's for DTV reception...


Good for you ! As I think installers that know a bit about what they're doing, and have experience with DTV reception are a bit hard sometimes for folks who don't want to DIY ..(or don't know "how" to do it properly) ....

Just a thought, but if you want, and if you're willing to go as far as Dayton/Columbus/etc, you might want to post that in those local threads as well ...

I think Simplifying some of these matters and staying accurate/avoiding posting misinformation can sometimes be a difficult task. Mostly becuase I think often(but not allways), you have to understand the "technical stuff" before you can "dumb it down" and have it still be accurate ...

And, as a reader, I know on forums such as this it can be quite difficult to sort out what is "real accurate information, and what is misinformation.

So, by all means, the more folks we have that can do that, the better ....

I agree with all of what you said... and if people are looking for technical explanations, or understand all of the jargon, then hopefully they will breeze right past my posts. :D

From a personal standpoint, when I first started looking into antennas - which was when I first got an HDTV with an ATSC tuner a few months ago - I was intrigued by the idea of building one myself. I'm just the type who, when I could buy something or do it myself for much cheaper, will always choose the latter. When I saw the infamous youtube video, I was hooked. But in reading and reading and reading, always looking for that one little nugget of info that would allow me to create the best-possible antenna for my situation, what I guess I wanted was a quick-and-easy answer... someone to say "cut the wire this long, attach it this far from the other one, angle it to this degree, etc.". And if you search around out there, most of what you will find is discussions in the vein of "make your dipole 1/2 of a wavelength for the frequency" or something like that... which does nothing for the newcomers who are just trying to find some dimensions to build something, ya know? Now, I understand that this latter description is technically what you need to know... it's just that I can't imagine that there aren't a bunch of lurkers out there (as I was) who are desperately looking for someone to simply say "hey, if you are in a good location to get your local channels fairly easily and you want to build a simple antenna that should get most of them, here's what you do:". And to give the dimensions in inches instead of millimeters or fractions of wavelength. :)

In other words, I bet there are people reading this forum who don't necessarily want to understand it, they just want to know how to build it (that was me, before I built my first and then started asking questions). ;) So, you know, if I can be that guy that helps a few lurkers to take the plunge and do it themselves - even if they never post here that they are doing it or what the results were - then I would consider it worth it. ;) And if it motivates them to post here and add to the discussion, then I figure that would be a good thing.

Again, I hope this doesn't sound argumentative, Nitewatchman - I'm not meaning that at all (and I know internet forums can mis-convey tone-of-voice). Just trying to do my part (what little part I can do), since so many people here helped me get my feet wet.

In other words, I bet there are people reading this forum who don't necessarily want to understand it, they just want to know how to build it


Nothing wrong with that.

If they were told how to build it wrong, however, then that's a problem, right?

It's the Same thing for folks who do want to understand, for instance why it's best to use a VHF antenna for VHF and UHF antenna for UHF/etc ....

Or, regardless of whether or not they want to understand it or not, when someone comes here and wonders why their reception isn't working very well (they sometimes seem to blame the station if they get low signal meter readings from one station and not another, or at certian times/etc and assume (incorrectly, usually) that it's because the station is doing something wrong or doesn't have enough "power"/etc ...

This(OTA reception) isn't a subject where we can just say "you have a bad connection" or something like that, there are MANY factors which can effect OTA reception. It's usually not "plug and play", (sometimes it is, but we don't usually hear from folks here that are not having problems) and many folks don't seem to understand that.

For instance, I can just say "For best results use a VHF/UHF antenna", (and I have said that), but I'm not sure that level of "info" helps very much in many cases ....


So, you know, if I can be that guy that helps a few lurkers to take the plunge and do it themselves - even if they never post here that they are doing it or what the results were - then I would consider it worth it. ;)


By all means, but it is still important to post accurate information(and like I said, we all make mistakes), regardless of whether or not some readers might not care to "understand it" .....


Just trying to do my part (what little part I can do), since so many people here helped me get my feet wet.

Good for you, something along those lines is why I began posting on AVSforum as well, and we are glad to have you ....

The first HD game of the year is scheduled for tomorrow 4/8 on FSN-CIN. I'm sending an email to D* letting them know. 638-1 is still stating TBA.

Here is a link of the schedule. HD in Bold, as well as the page link.
106908

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20080307&content_id=2410937&vkey=pr_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

Where in town are you and how does that antenna do, reception-wise?

And what are the dimensions of the 4221 as you have it (distance from vertex of one bowtie to the next, spread of the bowtie at the tips, etc.)? My understanding is that the model on the youtube video (which is the general instructions that you see on many forums for that model, and what I used) follow the same dimensions.

Sorry for the long delay in responding (work stuff). I'm in Monroe near where 63 meets Route 4. When I took the shield off of the CM 4221 I started receiving both Cincy and Dayton stations (all of them) and still receive WCPO (VHF). Haven't had any dropouts since I did that (about 2 months ago) and also didn't have a problem during/after the blizzard :)

Of course YMMV as always with antennas. I'm lucky to be about half way between Cincy and Dayton (both in distance and angle).

I don't know the dimensions of the CM 4221 off hand, I'll measure it when I get time.

Thanks!

Bruce

The first HD game of the year is scheduled for tomorrow 4/8 on FSN-CIN. I'm sending an email to D* letting them know. 638-1 is still stating TBA.

Here is a link of the schedule. HD in Bold, as well as the page link.
106908

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20080307&content_id=2410937&vkey=pr_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

There are reports that the guide has been updated. http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=102656&page=3

The first HD game of the year is scheduled for tomorrow 4/8 on FSN-CIN. I'm sending an email to D* letting them know. 638-1 is still stating TBA.

Here is a link of the schedule. HD in Bold, as well as the page link.
106908

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20080307&content_id=2410937&vkey=pr_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

I watched a couple of innings of this on TWC. It looked really good. It's really nice getting the home team games in HD.

D* was on the ball for the HD; it looked very very good. Watching the HD version was amazing compared to the terrible SD version. Now if I can only figure out how to get the sound for the radio with Marty to sync with the delay of the satellite.

George Grande puts me to sleep.

D* was on the ball for the HD; it looked very very good. Watching the HD version was amazing compared to the terrible SD version. Now if I can only figure out how to get the sound for the radio with Marty to sync with the delay of the satellite.

George Grande puts me to sleep.

I'm still waiting on "Radio Tivo", so you can time-shift radio, for that exact reason (Reds and Bengals, both). I am absolutely shocked that this is not a standard feature on radios these days. Seriously, with the (low) audio quality of radio, they could use flash memory and wouldn't even need a spinning hard drive.

I'm still waiting on "Radio Tivo", so you can time-shift radio, for that exact reason (Reds and Bengals, both). I am absolutely shocked that this is not a standard feature on radios these days. Seriously, with the (low) audio quality of radio, they could use flash memory and wouldn't even need a spinning hard drive.

BeyondTV does this if you have an FM tuner, such as the ones that come on many of the Hauppauge TV tuner cards. :)

D* was on the ball for the HD; it looked very very good. Watching the HD version was amazing compared to the terrible SD version. Now if I can only figure out how to get the sound for the radio with Marty to sync with the delay of the satellite.

George Grande puts me to sleep.

If you could get an internet radio feed, then you'd probably be set as the delay for internet radio is greater than satellite. Though, I think MLB makes you pay for those feeds.

If you could get an internet radio feed, then you'd probably be set as the delay for internet radio is greater than satellite. Though, I think MLB makes you pay for those feeds.
Yup, they do. :mad:

BeyondTV does this if you have an FM tuner, such as the ones that come on many of the Hauppauge TV tuner cards. :)
But can you play the radio audio and the TV video simultaneously? I wouldn't think it would allow that. On the SageTV mod to play radio through an enabled tuner card, you are choosing either TV or radio, but can't have both. Plus, FM doesn't get the Reds (though it would get the Bengals). ;)

Of course, you could always use the PC to play the radio feed and then watch the game through a direct feed from the cable.

I just was looking into external PC am/fm tuners (such as the "Radio Shark") yesterday - seems like the software that comes with some of them does not allow pause/ff/rew. Sorta defeats the purpose - if you can't do that, why bother listening through the PC, just turn on a radio. ;)

But I am waiting for an actual radio that has a "recorded buffer", that allows time-shifting. And I can't believe they aren't commonplace yet (I believe I have seen a few, specifically in car stereos?). Heck, my pack-of-gum-sized MP3 player allows direct recording of FM radio into an MP3, so how hard would it be for them to use that same technology for time-shifting?

If you are like me, and used to "Tivo" timeshifting, you will have the radio on and find yourself reaching for a button to rewind back to something you just thought you heard! :o

Hi all,

I posted this somewhere else at avsforum I think, probably an antenna forum:

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk203/Renaissance_Man_1966/Gray-HovermaninFamilyRoom.jpg

I'm in Green Township. With store-bought rabbit ears, two stations were "questionable" -- Channel 9 (digital) and Channel 19 (digital). Now they are both quite solid. Dayton stations are improved as well.

It is the "Gray-Hoverman" seen recently on slashdot and discussed at digitalhome.ca. Performs pretty well.

We could build this with scrap wood and wire in a couple of hours. Use wire rods, (like the original G-H) instead of a mesh screen. Like you, I don't have any money, or access to the chimney, so I have to improvise.

I'm always busy, but I try to help wherever I can. But let me know if you want to do a "quickie" version. You've got nothing to lose except poor reception.

Wow, that rocks saturndude. You built that particular one in the pic?

Two problems with WLWT-DT today...

First, they did not have the poker tournament in HD, while WDTN-DT did. I called and while the news desk lady told me it was not available in HD, right after I hung up with her they switched to the HD feed. So I thank them for getting right on that.

Second, 5-2 WeatherPlus is apparently showing Friday's (?) data. It says it's currently anywhere from 60 to 72 degrees (depending on the area) and the 5 day forecast begins with Saturday (yesterday).

Hey all...

I know we discuss the HDTV signals here, but the Reds game came up...

If you switch to the SD feed of the game today, and it is basically the widescreen version squeezed into a 4:3. It's practically unwatchable. I'm on Dish. Anyone else having the same issue?

Kevin

You built that particular one...?

Yeah. I have money coming in a couple of weeks, I could have waited and bought the CM-4221 (it's several inches narrower but similar performance to mine). And then I could have built an indoor stand. I guess I wanted a better picture NOW.

EDIT: robmadden1 -- my offer of help was to you. Should have mentioned that earlier. You live close and have little money, just like me. But I'm starting new job(s) soon, let me know real soon if you want help.

Hey all...

I know we discuss the HDTV signals here, but the Reds game came up...

If you switch to the SD feed of the game today, and it is basically the widescreen version squeezed into a 4:3. It's practically unwatchable. I'm on Dish. Anyone else having the same issue?

Kevin

I'm on the Amelia head end (old Adelphia) of TWC, and on the FSN-HD channel its got the black bars on the side, but maybe it is the 16:9 picture squeezed horizontally to 4:3. The analog SD channel looks the same but not as clear.

Something definitely wrong there.

I'm on the Amelia head end (old Adelphia) of TWC, and on the FSN-HD channel its got the black bars on the side, but maybe it is the 16:9 picture squeezed horizontally to 4:3. The analog SD channel looks the same but not as clear.

Something definitely wrong there.

Same thing here on DirecTV.

Stepped away from the computer, but the game seemed to get fixed within the last couple innings. SD feed looks normal now.

Kevin

Hi all,

I posted this somewhere else at avsforum I think, probably an antenna forum:

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk203/Renaissance_Man_1966/Gray-HovermaninFamilyRoom.jpg

I'm in Green Township. With store-bought rabbit ears, two stations were "questionable" -- Channel 9 (digital) and Channel 19 (digital). Now they are both quite solid. Dayton stations are improved as well.

It is the "Gray-Hoverman" seen recently on slashdot and discussed at digitalhome.ca. Performs pretty well.

We could build this with scrap wood and wire in a couple of hours. Use wire rods, (like the original G-H) instead of a mesh screen. Like you, I don't have any money, or access to the chimney, so I have to improvise.

I'm always busy, but I try to help wherever I can. But let me know if you want to do a "quickie" version. You've got nothing to lose except poor reception.

Heh – I saw your posts on Digitalhome, and I think one of your posts had your tvfool plot, and I actually guessed you were in that part of town. If I had joined over there (I haven't), I would have posted and directed you here. Glad you found us!

I posted a while back that I had made a SBGH myself, though rod reflected (rather than screen like yours). I read that entire Digitalhome forum thread and it had appeared that a SBGH with rod reflectors had better reception “from the back” than an unreflected DB4-style. Cincinnati and Dayton are almost opposites to me (I’m in Evendale), so I was hoping to aim it towards Dayton, and pick up Cincinnati from the “back”, since Cincinnati is pretty strong at my house anyway.

I feel fairly confident that the dimensions and arrangement of mine were pretty accurate, but though it gave me very strong reception from the front (Dayton), the sides and back were worse than the DB4. I had dropouts and inconsistent reception on several Cincinnati stations… enough to make me ditch it.

Not saying it’s not a good antenna design – and for directional reception, I do believe it’s better than the DB4 when built properly - but I guess it’s the old “YMMV”.

I’m now reading up on some “omnidirectional” antennas – thanks to a link posted here by Nitewatchman.

The audio during Mariahs preformance on Oprah sucked on WCPO had static in it. The static is very anoying. Its the first time she is singing her new single live and they screwed it up with the static.

My wife watched that and I didn't hear any static at all...WCPO-DT via TW...

It over the air i was watching it.

OTA is the same as cable...I would guess it is something in your setup...a loose...or frayed wire perhaps???

OTA means with a antenna not with cable or Sat. I have digital tv but the static was on analoug and digital channel. Hopefully the replay right now will be better.

Mariah is my alll time favorite female artist.

The static is also comming in directv even on the replay.

I sent a email to WCPO hopfully they fix the audio problem. I noticed the static durnnig a few commercials tonight also.

Yes...I am fully aware of what OTA means...OTA and cable are the same feed...Check with Directv...I did not watch WCPO last night so have no comment other than there was no static durig Oprah...

I'm not experiencing any static in the audio this morning from WCPO-DT via D*. I also didn't experience any noticeable static during Dancing with the Stars last night (I wasn't watching commercials though).

OTA means with a antenna not with cable or Sat. I have digital tv but the static was on analoug and digital channel. Hopefully the replay right now will be better.

Rob!!! :) What did you ever do about your antenna situation? Did you attempt to make a DIY one? Are you still using your FM antenna for TV reception?

my antenna is fine. But that guy is totaly wrong thier was static I even have a avi of the preformace with the static. I did not watch Oprah on DIRECTV or CABLE Iwatched with A ANTENNA OK GEEZE. Get over thinking cable and ota are the same when they are not.

If you want a copy of the video with the static you can get it from me. To see what I mean and no I did not add the static when the avi was made. http://thep03.sytes.net:8080 its in the upload folder.

My antenna is fine, but that guy is totally wrong. There was static. I even have an AVI of the performance with the static. I did not watch Oprah on DIRECTV or CABLE, I watched with AN ANTENNA, OK, GEEZE. Get over thinking cable and OTA are the same, when they are not.

You're awfully snippy for someone looking for help. WCPO-DT produces one digital feed from their encoder. This feed is distributed from their broadcast antenna (OTA & DirecTV?) and through fiber feeds (Cable & DirecTV?). If there are reports of clean reception through other distribution paths then we're suggesting that you turn your attention to your setup.

Do you continue to experience static in the audio when you watch WCPO-DT? Is it all time time, just during the commercials during prime time and during Oprah in the afternoon, or when? Are you experiencing this static on other channels? If so, when?

Can you describe your configuration (antenna type, tuner type, A/V receiver type, connection type between these components, etc)? How did you create/capture this AVI file?

Hi everyone, an out of left field question because I'm researching for a friend who is about to move into the Batavia area. Can anyone help with a list of the QAM channels available on Time-Werner Cable? Is it only the local broadcast channels or are there others too?

Here in Maryland the former Adelphia (now Comcast) QAM is robust and several non-broadcast channels are available.

Thank you for any help you can provide.

my antenna is fine. But that guy is totaly wrong thier was static I even have a avi of the preformace with the static. I did not watch Oprah on DIRECTV or CABLE Iwatched with A ANTENNA OK GEEZE. Get over thinking cable and ota are the same when they are not.

If you want a copy of the video with the static you can get it from me. To see what I mean and no I did not add the static when the avi was made. http://thep03.sytes.net:8080 its in the upload folder.

Then figure it out for yourself Mr. Know-it-all...:rolleyes:

THERE WAS NO STATIC...or distortion...ON WCPO DURING THE OPRAH SHOW FEATURING MARIAH CAREY...You get the SAME signal/programming as cable gets...THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN THE CONTENT...I have NEVER heard staic on DTV audio from ANY source or reception method...Distortion...yes...Static...no...Static comes from your setup...Look there and if you want help then LOSE THE ATTITUDE AND GET OVER YOURSELF ALREADY...

Hi everyone, an out of left field question because I'm researching for a friend who is about to move into the Batavia area. Can anyone help with a list of the QAM channels available on Time-Werner Cable? Is it only the local broadcast channels or are there others too?

Here in Maryland the former Adelphia (now Comcast) QAM is robust and several non-broadcast channels are available.

Thank you for any help you can provide.

The former Adelphia system in Batavia...now Time Warner...only broadcasts the local DTV stations in the clear on QAM and Music Choice...At least thats what I can get using my LG QAM tuner...

Thanks for the quick reply Splicer010!

Good news for us Browns fans in Cincinnati / Dayton - There seems to be only 3 weeks that the Browns play at the same time as the Bengals on CBS - when combined with the 5 primetime games, all but three (or so) games should be on either Fox19, WKRC, and or WHIO.. nice.. looks like there is no need to drop the $300+ bones for the Sunday Ticket!!

Watch the damn video you will see what I mean. its in the audio NOT VIDEO. Listen with headphones or earbuds you will notice it.

Watch the damn video you will see what I mean. its in the audio NOT VIDEO. Listen with headphones or earbuds you will notice it.
I think you are missing their point entirely. They are saying the issue is in your particular hardware setup, not the feed from the station.

Watch the damn video you will see what I mean. its in the audio NOT VIDEO. Listen with headphones or earbuds you will notice it.

I think I'll pass on your generous offer...:rolleyes:

Watch the damn video you will see what I mean. its in the audio NOT VIDEO. Listen with headphones or earbuds you will notice it.

I think I'll pass on your generous offer...:rolleyes:

C'mon, now, splicer... you committed to try to help... now watch that Mariah Carey!!! :p

Hi everyone, an out of left field question because I'm researching for a friend who is about to move into the Batavia area. Can anyone help with a list of the QAM channels available on Time-Werner Cable? Is it only the local broadcast channels or are there others too?

Here in Maryland the former Adelphia (now Comcast) QAM is robust and several non-broadcast channels are available.

Thank you for any help you can provide.

Go to this site and put in the guy's zip code:http://www.silicondust.com/wiki/hdhomerun/channels

It's the site for the HDHomerun tuner... but it will (or should) show you the ClearQAM stations available in the zip code you enter. I can't vouch for its correctness, but it's a start.

Scroll down past the "8vsb" (OTA) listings in the left column to the "qam256" listings. And make sure to scroll all the way to the bottom, as there are typically several at the end of the page.

Will wpto channel 14 still be broadcasting their digital signal in Cincinnati from the channel 19 mast after the switch over next Feb or will they move their digital signal to Oxford?

jcs444, 1st, welcome to AVS+this thread ...

WPTO-DT(digital) is staying where they are after analog shut off, on WXIX's tower In cincy per the info they've sent FCC regarding their plans for post transition operation.

Allways a possibility that could change at some point of course, but there are a number of good reasons for them to stay where they are. One of those reasons being because WPTO-DT transmits on channel 28, WXIX-DT on 1st adjacent channel 29, and in these sorts of cases, having 1st adjacent channel DTV stations be co-located, or nearly so(transmitting from same or nearly the same location) generally "works" better for various reasons. So, hopefully they will stay where they are, permanently ....

I couldn't find by searching but i'm wondering has there been any reports as to HD newcasts by the other Cincinnati stations as WCPO already has them?

Thanks in advance!

I couldn't find by searching but i'm wondering has there been any reports as to HD newcasts by the other Cincinnati stations as WCPO already has them?

Thanks in advance!WLWT last I heard said they have no timetable for it, and it is Hearst-Argyle's (station owners) call. WKRC is in the middle of transfer of ownership and has not announced anything either. WXIX has announced nothing and will most likely be the last to go HD.

If I had to guess I would say WLWT would be next but I wouldn't expect it until next year. But, that's just my guess.

Actually, I might expect WXIX to go HD next. They're Raycom's 2nd largest station (WOIO Cleveland is biggest and in HD) and their engineer has hinted that due to old cameras, graphics, set and weather software, going HD is worth it.

As for WKRC, who knows what Newport will do and Hearst needs to upgrade everything on WLWT, from the cameras to the anchors.

With Steve Horstmeyer becoming their new Chief Meteorologist in August I would think that WXIX would want to make a splash and go all HD with a new set and HD weather graphics and radar.

I've been having the same problems via TWC. Sometimes when it does it, my 8300HD loses the signal completely for both WLWT and WeatherPlus. The only way to re-tune that channel is to reboot the box. All the other channels continue to work just fine. I have only noticed this during network programming, local shows seem to be fine.

It wasn't too much of a problem until last night when it did it twice in the middle of The Apprentice, which launched a tirade against TWC by my wife :rolleyes:
Have has TWC techs replace cables, set top box, etc. and have not been able to solve the problem with audio and video breakup on Channel 905 and the KET channels. Audio stutter and pixelization continue on these channels only. If anyone has any ideas, please reply. Time Warner signal strength tests OK.

Thanks,
Bill

Actually, I might expect WXIX to go HD next. They're Raycom's 2nd largest station (WOIO Cleveland is biggest and in HD) and their engineer has hinted that due to old cameras, graphics, set and weather software, going HD is worth it.

As for WKRC, who knows what Newport will do and Hearst needs to upgrade everything on WLWT, from the cameras to the anchors.

With Steve Horstmeyer becoming their new Chief Meteorologist in August I would think that WXIX would want to make a splash and go all HD with a new set and HD weather graphics and radar.

I can't disagree with you, since we're just speculating, but WXIX can't even figure out how to properly upconvert their local content. Their newscasts, syndicated programming, and other local originating content look like a high school student rigged up some composite cables. Anything not inserted directly from FOX by the splicer looks quite awful.

WLWT has been completely digital (but not HD) for some time now. Actually, if they just went SD widescreen I would bet that most people wouldn't be able to tell that it wasn't HD, based on what we get from them now. Their current newscasts look like "almost HD" 4:3.

It doesn't sound too promising for WLWT.

Four of Hearst-Argyle’s 28 stations have launched local newscasts in HD, and two more will go by this summer. As he considers smaller-market HD launches, Faubell is looking to economize. “Now as we get down to the meat of the group, I don’t want to write the same checks as I did in the big markets,” he says.

HD news stations are shooting field footage in widescreen standard-definition, but Faubell is considering whether stations need to produce field footage in HD. Besides the cost of new cameras, editors and microwave links necessary to do true HD ENG, Hearst-Argyle also does a lot of satellite newsgathering, which presents a bandwidth challenge.


See more HERE (http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6546067.html)

From the wikipedia article for WXIX comes this:

On August 21, 2007, WXIX announced that they plan to offer their newscasts in high definition in 2008.

It doesn't cite any kind of source or reference though so I don't know how accurate that is. If WXIX does go HD it would be quite a pleasant surprise.

i have been trying to contact WKOI regarding the loss of their Digital stations. i live in preble county and have been without their TBN stations since yesterday. i have gotten no response. i am at a loss as to whats going on.

Thank you all for the update on the local stations. I'm surprised they are so slow in converting to a HD newscast giving the fact that February of next year the analog signals go away!

Thank you all for the update on the local stations. I'm surprised they are so slow in converting to a HD newscast giving the fact that February of next year the analog signals go away!

Don't forget that just because analog signals are being eliminated, doesn't mean the local stations can't continue to convert their analog newscast to digital for broadcast. Right now all the major local stations with a newscast are ready for the analog cutoff as they're broadcasting their local newscast digitally.

Did anybody watch or record Samantha Who on WCPO 9.1 last night ? If so did you have serious pixellation & audio breakups ?

I recorded the OTA feed on my HTPC using an AverMedia M780 tuner card. My recording is a real mess. There is a minute or so of Dancing With the Stars at the beginning of the recording which also exhibits a fair amount of pixellation.

I don't use this card a lot for ATSC, most of my HD recordings are done with an HD-HomeRun using a TWC QAM feed. I am wondering if I have a problem with the AverMedia card or my antenna feed or if WCPO simply had biggie problems last night.

I did not see it but from your description I would pressume it has to do with the antenna...

Possibly, but I have a CM 3020 fringe rated antenna mounted to my chimney. Although it is aimed to optimize FM reception of WNKU, not Cincinnati TV stations, I normally get excellent OTA recpeption.

I am watching the WCPO-HD news right now using the AverMedia card in my HT-PC and it is flawless.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback.

The atmosphere can do funny things to RF reception...Clouds...Leaves on a tree...etc...especially to an antenna not set up...or optimized...for television reception....

Yes, thanks, I understand that. If there are no other reports of problems last night I will assume it is a finicky reception issue due to my antenna orientation.

It seems a lot of folks watch Dancing With the Stars. Any reception problems last night ?

Did anybody watch or record Samantha Who on WCPO 9.1 last night ? If so did you have serious pixellation & audio breakups ?

I recorded the OTA feed on my HTPC using an AverMedia M780 tuner card. My recording is a real mess. There is a minute or so of Dancing With the Stars at the beginning of the recording which also exhibits a fair amount of pixellation.

I don't use this card a lot for ATSC, most of my HD recordings are done with an HD-HomeRun using a TWC QAM feed. I am wondering if I have a problem with the AverMedia card or my antenna feed or if WCPO simply had biggie problems last night.

My wife recorded both of those shows with our HTPC setup (SageTV software, HDHomerun tuners). I will ask her if there were problems (typically she would have watched them this morning after I left for work). If she has not watched and deleted them yet, I will check them tonight and let you know.

I have seen a couple of issues lately with stations that I previously had flawlessly. I imagine it is the whole "changing of the seasons" situation, as I first built the setup this past Winter. My antennas are in the attic and not directional, so I am more likely to start seeing reception "changes" with the arrival of Spring (much to my chagrin).

Man made(or lightning) Electrical/impulse noise interference can be a particular issue on VHF. Although Particularly VHF-LO, this sort of interference is still signifciantly more of a problem on VHF-HI(ch 7~13) than UHF. Electric motors(including from various household applicances, particualrly things like blower motors/fans/etc), faulty vehicle ignition systems can cause this type of interference. You see it as "static" on screen the analog stations.

Also, I didn't check last night to see what band conditions were like, but depending upon where you are located, co-channel interference from WBNS 10 analog, Columbus coming in off backside is also a potential problem issue until feb 18, 2009. But, given that DTV is quite "immune" to NTSC interference, WBNS would have to be blasting in awfully strong via "enhanced propagation conditions" to effect WCPO digital reception if You're in Cincinnati and have your antenna aimed (or nearly so) at WCPO .... If you were in say Wilmington area however, or using a "bi-directional" antenna, or had your antenna aimed towards Columbus it would be more likely a potential issue ....

Yes, thanks, I understand that. If there are no other reports of problems last night I will assume it is a finicky reception issue due to my antenna orientation.

It seems a lot of folks watch Dancing With the Stars. Any reception problems last night ?

My wife watched recordings of both "Samantha Who?" and "Dancing with the Stars" this morning (recorded with OTA antennas and digital HDHRs) and she reports no issues with reception. Sorry.

Of course, she typically doesn't complain or even notice glitches anyway. Heck, she still says she can barely tell the difference between HD and SD. :eek: I think I may have to drag the old 27" tube out of the basement and set it next to the HDTV so she can see it side-by-side. :cool:

WCET-DT, every time I've watched in the past few days, has been showing upconverted SD on their HD channel. Several shows even had the "presented in HD" intro clip before them and then were still shown as SD upconverts. I was looking forward to last night's NOVA ("Car of the Future) but unfortunately it was a window-boxed SD upconvert as well.

Is WCET-DT showing anything in HD anymore? They are really becoming quite disappointing lately.

Is WCET-DT showing anything in HD anymore? They are really becoming quite disappointing lately.

This past Saturday night I recorded "Austin City Limits" (Ray Davies) off of WCET and it was in HD. I haven't checked since, though.

pjpjpjpj,

Thanks for your report on WCPO-HD. Your wife would have definitely noticed the breakups I was having. Pretty much unwatchable. I guess I must be right on the edge of the digital reception cliff with WCPO and my current antenna position. It is perfectly fine most of the time.

As to WCET, since they aligned programming of the HD channel with 48 analog their HD content has dropped to about nil. Worse, as jimp2244 noted, many times they even have a 16x9 letterbox on the HD channel. I have seen this multiple times with Motorweek and at least once with a recording of Austin City Limits.

Did anybody watch or record Samantha Who on WCPO 9.1 last night ? If so did you have serious pixellation & audio breakups ?



I watched it last nite off the TWC dvr and had no problems.

anybody around getting WKOI-DT it has been off the air since Monday morning, something about replacing a filter on the tranmitter. the person i emailed said it would take 2 to 4 days to fix. yeah right.

Last night noticed that WCET-DT was showing real HD again, at least during the part of the National Geographic show I caught. However, the video seemed to exhibit the "reduced resolution" problem that WCPO-DT had for quite some time a few years back. I believe we called it the "jaggies" issue and it was around for quite some time on WCPO.

anybody around getting WKOI-DT it has been off the air since Monday morning, something about replacing a filter on the tranmitter. the person i emailed said it would take 2 to 4 days to fix. yeah right.

That filter could been a capacitor in the high voltage power supply that weight about 40 lbs. and cost about $4,000.00. It is a item that you do not pick-up at a local Radio Shack.

Concerning WCET-DT, I have witnessed on occasions they actually zoom in the picture on WS SD material. It is quite obvious at the beginning of a show when this happens. I have seen it mainly on the "This Old House" hour of programming. It is quite sad how they have gone from complete PBS HD programming to nothing. Hopefully this will change soon, otherwise why donate when the two other public tv companies in the area offer HD.

For those who live in the ex-Adelphia, has anyone had any PQ issues with FSN HD and NatGeo HD? They are on the same carrier channel and when FSN HD is broadcasting both channels are pretty much unwatchable due to the picture breaking up. For the most part my other channels are OK but HD Theater and Universal HD also break up from time to time. I almost seems like the channels are BW starved (FSN and NatGeo at least). I have checked the signal quality in my Moto HD box and everything looks good on the carrier channels but yet the channels are unwatchable.

That filter could been a capacitor in the high voltage power supply that weight about 40 lbs. and cost about $4,000.00. It is a item that you do not pick-up at a local Radio Shack.

It could also be a problem in what is called the "mask filter". It's a gadget in the out-bound transmission line that slices any remaining out-of-channel energy off of the signal before we pass it along to you folks at home.

Radio Shack doesn't sell mask filters either....

Concerning WCET-DT, I have witnessed on occasions they actually zoom in the picture on WS SD material. It is quite obvious at the beginning of a show when this happens. I have seen it mainly on the "This Old House" hour of programming.


Pretty sure the WS SD source material involved when they are doing that is letterboxed in a 4x3 SD Format. Thus they are doing the "crop/zoom" so the 16x9 video fills the 1080i (16x9) format being broadcast, rather than having "black bars" all the way around.

I actually appreciate they're doing that. Except when at times(especially when they first started doing it) they have left it that way occasionally for 4x3 programming. But of course, the effective resolution involved is very low given that it's much less than 4x3 SD or non-letterboxed 16x9 SD, and the artifacts (such as the "jaggies" jimp2244 noted) are to be expected ... The zoom (will crop/zoom 720p/1080i source) I have on a couple of HD sets here do seem to perhaps work a little better(less artifacts/etc) than what they are doing, however ....

Was watching KETHD tonight, but switched over at 8pm and saw the "zoom/crop" thing with the apparent fairly low effective resolution(although it perhaps looked better than it has when they've done this recently), and artifacts/"Jaggies" on CET during "This Old house" ... But, checked CET HD between 9~10pm, and they have "true HD" up for antiques roadshow, no "Jaggies" .I think they had HD up for Newshour tonight as well.


Hopefully this will change soon,


Except for their bandwidth/HD PQ issues with all the multicasting ... Which is a big "except" --- I've been very impressed with what the ThinkTV digital stations has been doing lately, especially regarding all the traffic they have to deal with for all those services, and the WPTO-DT's entirely "different" HD program schedule, which for the most part has been generally HD (or SD widescreen upconverts from PBS), with a PBS HD feed up on WPTD-DT 24/7 as well ... And, of course I've allways been impressed with what KET has done with DTV, including HD ....

But, I don't know what we're going to end up with in a year or so from the PBS member stations in the area ... Especially involving More HD that's coming from PBS, and several changes to the way PBS is going to be doing soon regarding HD and the way they feed programming to stations, which is detailed/discussed in the following article I ran across recently - For instance It even says PBS is going to discontinue SD feeds of it's main program schedule (in which case hopefully the 16x9 WS SD stuff letterboxed "into" a 4x3 SD format will be gone from stations like WCET's HD service) :

http://www.current.org/dtv/dtv0802hd.shtml

.... before we pass it along to you folks at home.


Xmtrman, if you get time "along the way" to Feb 18 --- feel free to pass along any pics or stories here on your upcoming transition to digital on 12, I'm sure folks would enjoy hearing a little about it .....

BTW, Noticed WCPO's recently granted consturction permit for their final post-transition facility is for CP (circular Polarization) ...

Which I thought was interesting, espcially given WKRC 12 (current analog and future digital according to WKRC's form 387 DTR+Recently granted post-transition Construction Permit) antenna also being CP ....

Update: Note: Couldn't decide which was better to abbreviate for this post -- "CP for Construction permit" or "circularly polarized" ;) ....

Update 2:
------------------------------

If WKOI-DT's current issue is related to their mask filter, I hope when they come back up it (and regarding any adaptive precorrections for their exciter or "new" adjustments necessary) works as well as it did previously regarding my reception of stations such as WBQC 38, WRCX-LP 40 Dayton(off the back side of WKOI for me) and occasionally WTVQ-DT (RF 40, VC 36.x) Lexington ... Note: BTW, remember Meterologist John James who used to be at WLWT? He is and has been at WTVQ for several years ... They have a Weather subchannel somewhat similar to WCPO's, seems like he is on there giving a forecast everytime I'm receiving them ....

Except regarding the poor selectivity in a analog tuner in a S-VHS VCR I have here(on which I get digital "hash" on WBQC 38 from upper first adjacent channel WKOI-DT 39) ---- Even if I aim antenna right at WKOI (only 12 miles from me - Azimuth 247 degrees), on WBQC 38(188 degrees at 32 miles), selectivity/performance of the analog tuners in my TV's are good enough that there is no "interference" noticable to WBQC ...

BTW, Noticed WCPO's recently granted consturction permit for their final post-transition facility is for CP (circular Polarization) ...

Which I thought was interesting, espcially given WKRC 12 (current analog and future digital according to WKRC's form 387 DTR+Recently granted post-transition Construction Permit) antenna also being CP ....
Given that all I know so far about circular polarization in in this pdf (http://www.frccorp.com/pdf/Why%20Circular%20Polorized%20Antenna.pdf), it would seem like it would be better in almost all situations, correct? If I understand things correctly, most TV is horizontally-linearly polarized, which is why our TV antennas have horizontal elements. If I were to turn my antenna vertically, it would hurt my reception. With circular polarization that wouldn't happen, correct?

The PDF also mentions better performance in multipath and obstructed situations, as well as inclement weather (although that last one I don't believe is much of a problem for VHF).

I'm trying to think of a downside for circular polarization as I was unable to find one searching around. My only idea would be that maybe you lose some gain?

Also, do circular polarization antennas exist for reception? I mean, of course they could be made, but are they practical and would there be any benefit to having one?

But of course, the effective resolution involved is very low given that it's much less than 4x3 SD or non-letterboxed 16x9 SD, and the artifacts (such as the "jaggies" jimp2244 noted) are to be expected ...
and artifacts/"Jaggies" on CET during "This Old house" ... But, checked CET HD between 9~10pm, and they have "true HD" up for antiques roadshow, no "Jaggies" .I think they had HD up for Newshour tonight as well.
I suppose it's possible that the National Geographic special I saw was an SD upconvert that was "zoomed" but it really looked HD to me, except with jaggies. It looked exactly like I remember WCPO-DT looking back when they had that issue. I did catch a few minutes of News Hour last night and it looked fine though (other than being the typical soft and bandwidth starved quality we're used to getting from CET HD). If I see the jaggies issue again I'll try to take a closer look.

For those who live in the ex-Adelphia, has anyone had any PQ issues with FSN HD and NatGeo HD? They are on the same carrier channel and when FSN HD is broadcasting both channels are pretty much unwatchable due to the picture breaking up. For the most part my other channels are OK but HD Theater and Universal HD also break up from time to time. I almost seems like the channels are BW starved (FSN and NatGeo at least). I have checked the signal quality in my Moto HD box and everything looks good on the carrier channels but yet the channels are unwatchable.

I'm in Maineville using the Amelia head end. I didn't have any problems with the PQ on Mon or Tues Reds games. I don't think I have looked at NatGeo when FSN-HD was on the air. I have the Moto DCH6416 stb.

WKOI-DT is currently back on air ... Noticed they've had their transmitter up a bit earlier, but without valid/decodable data/transport stream (just random data) ... As of 1:03pm however, the "usual" TS is back up with all the multicast subchannels/etc ...

Given that all I know so far about circular polarization in in this pdf (http://www.frccorp.com/pdf/Why%20Circular%20Polorized%20Antenna.pdf), it would seem like it would be better in almost all situations, correct?


Seems like it, at least for the receiving end regarding non-"specifically" horizontally polarized receive antennas (such as UHF loops, and depending upon adjustment of "rabbit ears".)

However, when the signals are being received through vegatation/etc, and via multipath reflections, I think it's possible Linear H-polarization as it leaves the transmit antenna may not be so "linear" by the time it reaches the receive antenna - Hence why perhaps circular polarization might be benefical for the other reasons as mentioned in the PDF ....

I think I had read somewhere that tests with analog TV indicated less issues with multipath when Horizontal polarization was used for receive antenna, and perhaps better signal gain performance as well, but I'm not sure about the latter.



If I understand things correctly, most TV is horizontally-linearly polarized, which is why our TV antennas have horizontal elements. If I were to turn my antenna vertically, it would hurt my reception. With circular polarization that wouldn't happen, correct?


Theoretically, and I'd guess probably in practice in many or most situations as well ...

Note that Most FM broadcast stations send significant amount of their signal both Horizontally polarized, and as vertically polarized, given that receive antennas used for FM broadcast often use either one or the other.


I'm trying to think of a downside for circular polarization as I was unable to find one searching around. My only idea would be that maybe you lose some gain?


Others may have some better input on that, but I think "downsides" would probably mostly involve "issues" on the transmission end in some circumstances rather than the on the receive end. For instance, I suspect more TPO(transmitter power output) may be needed if a station uses CP, as I suspect the antenna gain may be less than what is available for a Linear-Horizontally polarized transmit antenna ... That might especially be a "downside" for UHF, given the power levels involved are necessarily higher ....

As for the receive end, except if receive antenna is circularly polarized. In which case you would probably want it to use RHC(clockwise) or LHC (counter-clockwise) polarization to match what the station you want to receive is using, as I'd guess you'd get more signal if your CP antenna matches the RHC or LHC polarization of the transmitted signal ... And of course, different stations may be using RHC or LHC, specifically ....


Also, do circular polarization antennas exist for reception? I mean, of course they could be made, but are they practical and would there be any benefit to having one?

I can't seem to dig it up now, but think there has been a bit of a discussion on a thread in hardware area regarding CP receive antennas ... I don't know if anyone ever has produced a commercially available circularly polarized directional TV receive antenna (A UHF parabolic might be one design that might work well, except the ones I have seen the driven element at the "feed point" is usually a horizontally polarized 1/2 wave UHF dipole - well, unless you mount the thing "sideways" or something) ... But, for example the polarization of "rabbit ears" of course depends upon how they are adjusted ...

Practically speaking, I'd think the biggest benefit to CP would probably be for folks using "rabbit ears" and or UHF loops .....

I'm in Maineville using the Amelia head end. I didn't have any problems with the PQ on Mon or Tues Reds games. I don't think I have looked at NatGeo when FSN-HD was on the air. I have the Moto DCH6416 stb.

I am in Maineville as well and I have a Moto non-DVR box (not sure what the model # is and too much trouble to look). Right now, NatGeo is fine. However, once something is broadcasting on FSN HD both channels are unwatchable due to breakup. I guess I will have to call TWC and have them to come out (probably only to tell me that the signal is fine :confused:). I have about had it with TWC anyway and I am about to dump them for satellite.

Noticed that WSTR-DT has the Cavs/Wizards game up in HD (from WCPO as WCPO is covering the Maupin funeral). Nice work WCPO and WSTR.

PGA Golf is also on the WKRC's subchannel 12-2, moved from 12-1 for the Maupin funeral, but it is obviously not in HD.

I don't belive WLWT had to pre-empt any programming other than infomercials, but they may join the NHL game a few minutes late depending on how long the funeral coverage lasts.

I am in Maineville as well and I have a Moto non-DVR box (not sure what the model # is and too much trouble to look). Right now, NatGeo is fine. However, once something is broadcasting on FSN HD both channels are unwatchable due to breakup. I guess I will have to call TWC and have them to come out (probably only to tell me that the signal is fine :confused:). I have about had it with TWC anyway and I am about to dump them for satellite.

The PQ is fine tonite on FSN-HD and NatGeo HD. There was one time during the pre-game where the picture froze for about a half second. Those channels are on 813 Mhz. Do you have any splitters in your system that are only rated up to 750 Mhz? Do you have any problems with UniversalHD or HD Theatre, which are on 819 Mhz?

UPDATE: at 9:55 during the wendys commercial the pictures started breaking up. It continued back into the game. NatGeo had similar problem. I looked at a few other channels: TNT/974 was terrible and a few had no signal at all. Right now FSN-HD is terrible, no audio, the picture is just a mess. Nat Geo is just as bad as FSN also.

Update 2: sometime between 10:15 and 10:30, almost all of the HD channels had no signal. I called TW and they had me unplug the box for a minute and when it came back it was the same. They scheduled a service call. After I got off the phone, I checked the SD digital channels (101-184) and about 15 had no signal, maybe 10 had some "noise" and the rest seemed OK. I only looked at one analog channel and it was fine. I switched to my TVs internal QAM tuner and the local digital channels didnt show up there either. So its not the cable box. But this morning, all the HD channels look fine. It was raining last nite, and the cable running from the pole to the house goes thru a large evergreen, and I think at least 2 of its branches are in contact with the cable. So I suspect either the wire and equipment on the poles, or the wire coming to my house.

I finally got my converter box "coupons" yesterday, and I was wondering, do any of the local "big box" stores carry the boxes that have the analog pass-through, in order to continue receiving the LP stations? I looked around online last night and all the stores that I checked only listed one or two converter boxes, period (granted, the online listings aren't always accurate), and none had analog pass-through.

Just curious if any of you have seen them locally in a store. I only go into the big-box stores once in a blue moon.

If you have seen them, what kind of price are we talking (vs. some of the "straight" boxes that are like $50 or $60)?

I finally got my converter box "coupons" yesterday, and I was wondering, do any of the local "big box" stores carry the boxes that have the analog pass-through, in order to continue receiving the LP stations? I looked around online last night and all the stores that I checked only listed one or two converter boxes, period (granted, the online listings aren't always accurate), and none had analog pass-through.

Just curious if any of you have seen them locally in a store. I only go into the big-box stores once in a blue moon.

If you have seen them, what kind of price are we talking (vs. some of the "straight" boxes that are like $50 or $60)?
I have yet to see any store with converters with the analog pass through feature. Most stores carry only one model as well. Circuit City and HH Gregg both carry the LG/Zenith box that I have which does not has the pass through. I believe Best Buy has the Insignia which is basically the same thing, also without pass through.

I have yet to see any store with converters with the analog pass through feature. Most stores carry only one model as well. Circuit City and HH Gregg both carry the LG/Zenith box that I have which does not has the pass through. I believe Best Buy has the Insignia which is basically the same thing, also without pass through.

Go to wikipedia web site and search comparison of cecb units
you will find 4 pages of general information about coupon eligible converter boxes

The Magnavox unit from Wally-World also does not have pass through...

Note there is all sorts of info on the CECBs (Coupon Eligible converter boxes) in hardware area here At avsforum which may be useful. This thread is one of many :

Converter Boxes Sold In the Major Stores (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=997980)

I can't verify the accuracy of it or if it also involves stores in our local area, but posters at This thread report (presumably in the posters' local areas) Kmart(and or maybe sears?) has Magnavox or Sylvania(mfg. by funai) TB100MG9 (reported not to be the "old" TB100Mw9 with no pass through, which I assume may be the unit XmtrMan's post involves) CECB with analog pass through, Meijer has Phico TB-100HH9(Mfg by funai) with analog pass through ....

Magnavox TB-100MG9 Availability (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1019300)

My WAG might be we may see more of the boxes with analog pass through on shelves as time goes on ....

Anyone notice on the Reds games on FSN-Cincinnati-HD that the surround sound is all messed up? I get the announcers in my right-rear surround and right channel. Nothing out of the left-rear surround.

Note there is all sorts of info on the CECBs (Coupon Eligible converter boxes) in hardware area here At avsforum which may be useful. This thread is one of many :

Converter Boxes Sold In the Major Stores (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=997980)

I can't verify the accuracy of it or if it also involves stores in our local area, but posters at This thread report (presumably in the posters' local areas) Kmart(and or maybe sears?) has Magnavox or Sylvania(mfg. by funai) TB100MG9 (reported not to be the "old" TB100Mw9 with no pass through, which I assume may be the unit XmtrMan's post involves) CECB with analog pass through, Meijer has Phico TB-100HH9(Mfg by funai) with analog pass through ....

Magnavox TB-100MG9 Availability (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1019300)
Thanks for the info.

My WAG might be we may see more of the boxes with analog pass through on shelves as time goes on ....
Except the coupons have expiration dates.... :(

Hey - crazy thought - do any of these boxes have QAM capabilities? Meaning, if you plug your (analog) cable into one right now, could you find the digital QAM streams?

Hey - crazy thought - do any of these boxes have QAM capabilities? Meaning, if you plug your (analog) cable into one right now, could you find the digital QAM streams?I don't believe they are allowed to have that feature. Government coupons are not allowed to be used to purchase devices such as cable tuners, which they were not intended to fund.

Do any of the coupon boxes have the option to power the boxes from batteries ? A battery power portable TV after Feb 2009 and a coupon box with no ac power is not good. I guess you have to listen to the radio for news and weather reports.

There are several models of CECB's "on the list" which reportedly use 12VDC, 9VDC or 5VDC wallwarts and could be powered by batteries ... Be careful with the polarity though ....

There are also some portable/handheld TV's with ATSC tuners available (expensive though vs. most analog handheld TV's we're used to , and the batteries don't last as long) ...

Here are a couple of threads from hardware area on these :

12 Vdc converter box? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1021809)

Smallest Digital TV (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=813288&page=5&highlight=portable)

For a few minutes I was getting 2.1 and 2.2 from Dayton here with my outdoor fm antenna hooked to my tv used indoors. 19.2 is now blank nothing about the tube on there.

Well i completly lost Channel 16 out of dayton ohio this morning and cannot get it back.
i am thinking about unhooking my converter box, dtv is going to be a pain i can tell.

Angiecopus:

I really wish you would listen to all the advice that was given to you in the Dayton thread. People who have been here for years and know about the issues you can have with over-the-air reception have tried to tell you how to troubleshoot the problems, and all you do is complain about everyone and everything else instead of actually trying what they suggest.

Would you at least LOOK at your antenna and figure out where it's pointed, and whether or not any elements are broken? Those two things are two of the most common problems; if your antenna is pointed the wrong way, it would explain these problems very quickly and could be easily resolved. Not to mention that every one of your problems involves one or more of the Dayton stations, a problem which just screams at me and everyone else that your antenna is aimed incorrectly. From what we've heard, the Cincinnati stations are all fine for you.

The other possibility is degraded connections, which has also been suggested to you to check. Especially if your equipment is older, it's very easy for connections to degrade and water to find its way inside, and this generally causes all kinds of reception problems.

And unhooking your box isn't a solution, as we're about 9 and a half months away from you having to hook it back up. I, for one, would rather be troubleshooting an outdoor system in the summer, and not in the middle of the winter.

Is this a problem with WPTD and not your own equipment? Without getting further responses from people in the area, who knows, it actually could be WPTD being off the air or something, but given your quick jump to blame the stations while refusing the advice of those here, I think you're quickly going to find people becoming unsympathetic to your issues.

And more importantly, why are you posting an issue with WPTD in the Cincinnati thread?

- Trip

there is no problem with my equipment, its this damm weather.

There is no problem with my equipment, it's this damn weather.

The trick is there may be things you can do to improve your reception to prevent these outages/breakups. Although you could just be in a tough situation with the trees on your property interfering with broadcasts (which appears to be some of the case) and there's nothing you can do unless you want to cut down your trees.

Until you start giving us some responses to our questions, you're on your own since you're giving us so little with which to work.

you are right i will have to deal with this situation until fall and then the leaves will fall off. I never realized what a pain dtv was going to be.
but thank goodness i can pick up Cincinnati station really well.

Damn as of 3:27am channel WDTN 2.1 and 2.2 is comming with a very strong signal in Cincinnati as if it was a local station. Thats the only Dayton digital station I can get to come in with my digital tv other then 14 out of Oxford. Have they tweaked thier antenna or signal stength at all? A weird question why is 2.1 and 2.2 showing the exact same thing? I am still just using my outdoor radio shack fm anntena indoors. I am in Delhi on top of a hill on the 3rd floor of a condo. 2.2 looks blury out of focus compaired to 2.1 with the same broadcast. Channel 5 has a way better picture then both of them on thier NBC feed.

Damn as of 3:27am channel WDTN 2.1 and 2.2 is comming with a very strong signal in Cincinnati as if it was a local station. Thats the only Dayton digital station I can get to come in with my digital tv other then 14 out of Oxford. Have they tweaked thier antenna or signal stength at all? A weird question why is 2.1 and 2.2 showing the exact same thing? I am still just using my outdoor radio shack fm anntena indoors. I am in Delhi on top of a hill on the 3rd floor of a condo. 2.2 looks blury out of focus compaired to 2.1 with the same broadcast. Channel 5 has a way better picture then both of them on thier NBC feed.

WDTN has not changed anything, but weather/atmosphere conditions may have helped you get a lock on WDTN-DT, which normally might be just below the threshold needed to receive it. The "signal strength" meter you are looking at is a measure of the quality of the signal, not the strength, and it's very possible that you are getting a very clean signal that is just above the threshold, producing very little errors which results in the high reading.

WPTO-DT (ThinkTV 14) broadcasts from Cincinnati - WXIX's tower I believe, not Oxford. WPTO analog does broadcast from Oxford however.

I believe 2-1 and 2-2 are showing the same thing because WDTN uses 2-2 to send to cable for broadcast as their analog channel. 2-2 does look very awful though (very little bandwidth given to the sub)... 2-1 is the HD channel.

2-1 and 5-1 generally are fairly close as far as quality goes... I usually find 5-1 to be slightly better and from my tests they generally give slightly more bandwidth to their HD channel. WLWT gives more to their HD channel than any other local station with a subchannel. I'm not sure that you'd notice as drastic as a difference as you say though ("way better" ) in normal circumstances so maybe WLWT had the HD feed and WDTN forgot to switch to it and was showing the SD feed.

It was the sd feed that I was compairing 2.1 to. To me it did not seem as good as capaired 5.1.

For about a week now CH. 48-2 has had no program info. It just says "DTV Program" every half hour.

yeah noticed that too.

Damn as of 3:27am channel WDTN 2.1 and 2.2 is comming with a very strong signal in Cincinnati as if it was a local station. .

It is a local station. Most Dayton stations coverage areas reach well Into Northern KY.

Use properly aimed(requries rotor for both Dayton+Cincinnati and KET In NKY) outdoor, directional VHF+UHF (not FM antenna) receive antenna for best results from Local Cincinnati/N KY +Dayton digital stations ..... Heck, from on top of a hill in Delhi area +on third floor, with a decent UHF antenna(even a Silver sensor perhaps), there is even a good chance you might even be able to get Dayton stations Consistantly from Indoors (especially if it's near say, a North facing window) .....

I've been getting WCPO fine for the most part since I adjusted my antenna, but the last couple days...I'm getting nothing. Is anybody else noticing any weakness with their signal?

Kevin

I've been getting WCPO fine for the most part since I adjusted my antenna, but the last couple days...I'm getting nothing. Is anybody else noticing any weakness with their signal?

Kevin
Have noticed no issues with WCPO here

I've been getting WCPO fine for the most part since I adjusted my antenna, but the last couple days...I'm getting nothing. Is anybody else noticing any weakness with their signal?

Kevin

The first weekend after I first got my HDTV and hooked up my indoor antenna (DIY, leaning against the wall behind the TV), I lost WCPO. Turns out my antenna had tipped - literally - about 1-2 inches to the left. I moved it slightly, and WCPO was right back in the 90s again.

Not saying this is your solution - just saying. ;)

Fair enough. I'll keep checking and trying different stuff. Something's probably just moved around a bit. It's always been a slightly shaky channel for me anyhow.

A few minutes later...

I solved Channel 9 by turning the antenna the away from Cincinnati. It had worked fine up til now facing towards Cincy, but that apparently wasn't good enough any more. Oh well. Now I'll work on the other channels!

I am still getting 2.1 and 2.2 since my last post most days it would come in at round 11:30pm then gp out around 10:30 to11am but today I have had it all day loing. My strength meeter is reading anywear from 57-68 most of the time aroud 61-62. Could this be from atmospheric conditions? I could not get it during the winter aI tried and tried to get it. i can get 43.1 -.5 but I will loose 2.1 and 2.2 if i move my antenna around to get it I would rather have 2.1 and 2.2 since I get most of the sub channels on 43 on directv. I am still only using my outdoor radio shack fm antenna but i modified the connector for the coaxal cable made one side iof it short and put a littel longer wire on the other and now I think this modifying is what is alowing me to get 2.1 and 2.2. I id reconect another wire that had broke off but did not relize it all winfer long and now it works great. for using a fm antenna on my tv lol.

At 7:45pm I lost it again.

Rob,
How is your reception of 5,9,12,14,19,48,54,64 (adding a "x.1" to all of those for the digital... I didn't feel like typing them all out) these days?

5: 83-88 but usally 83-84

9: 67-75

12: 73-83 but usally 77-79

14: 88-93

19: 79-88 but mostly 80-83

48: 80-91 but usally 83-86

54: 60-76 usally 75-76

64: 65-77 but usally 76-77

a question how bad is the fog in cinci this morning? wpto keeps messing up, and i know their transmitter is on with channel 19. and channel 14 is like at 33 percent signal on my dads converter box and about 40 percent signal on mine. i hope the fog lets up soon that the signal will go back to normal.

wkoi is experencing frequent sound drops anyone else getting this problem? i have a strong signal is it TBN Or is it WKOI?

Nope its Wkoi.

I get WKOI with my fm radio shack outdoor antenna used indoors. If I don't aim the antenna just right I will loose it usally was a weak signal around 33-43 but it usall sits around 39-43 but on a few ocations I got it in the 50's. Are they planing to boost thier digital sigal when the analog is cut off next yr. I dont usally watch it but some times I do and the drop out I get sometimes when I am watching it gets anoying.

Good grief, i just about had a heart attack, both 19 and 14 going off at the same time.
a i thought channel 12 was going to lose signal, the weather must be doing something down in cinci.

Good grief, i just about had a heart attack, both 19 and 14 going off at the same time.
a i thought channel 12 was going to lose signal, the weather must be doing something down in cinci.

Everything is coming in fine here. I never get any drop outs from any of the Dayton or Cincinnati stations. If you would like some help with your individual reception issues, many here would be happy to help.

If you would like help making it so that you too can watch digital TV with no drop outs like the rest of us with proper setups, you could start by posting a picture of your antenna (or give the model number if you know it), and describing how it is mounted and the direction in which it is aimed.

I have one of those Tall Attennas which is attached to the house like you see in rural areas
and what i heard is that wpto and wxix is on the same transmitter. It makes my parents mad when I mess with the channel master. so i havent touched it. oxford is not very far from me, its a shame that the transmitter for wpto is not in oxford.

I have one of those Tall Attennas which is attached to the house like you see in rural areas
and what i heard is that wpto and wxix is on the same transmitter. It makes my parents mad when I mess with the channel master. so i havent touched it. oxford is not very far from me, its a shame that the transmitter for wpto is not in oxford.

:rolleyes:

That is the most likely cause of all your dropouts... you don't have the attenna pointed properly. All this time you've been going off on the stations and their engineers when it was all your own setup's issue.

I have one of those Tall Attennas which is attached to the house like you see in rural areas
and what i heard is that wpto and wxix is on the same transmitter. It makes my parents mad when I mess with the channel master. so i havent touched it. oxford is not very far from me, its a shame that the transmitter for wpto is not in oxford.

WPTO-DT and WXIX-DT do broadcast from the same tower, but they don't use the same transmitter.

What kind of antenna is it? "Tall antenna" could mean just about anything. If you don't know the specific brand/type/model of antenna you have, then please take a picture of it so that we can at least make an educated guess as to the type of antenna it is. The type of antenna will have a big effect on your reception, and the direction it is aimed is important as well.

If your parents get mad when you mess with the antenna, does that mean that they aren't having any problems? If they were having problems too I would imagine they would want to make proper adjustments to fix them.

Hello,

I just purchased a new Sony KDL 52XBR4. So far the picture is awesome. I have the DirecTV rep coming today to upgrade my existing dish and receiver to HD and HD DVR. I specifically requested a HR-20 model HD DVR so that I can integrate OTA. I'd like to have it as a alternative to the compressed DirecTV signal as well as a backup, esp for rain fade, etc.

When I purchased the TV late Saturday night (great deal at HH Gregg), I also picked up a indoor amplified RCA brand antenna to test out the local OTA signal. The XBR4 has a HD tuner and cable input. I did a check at anntennawb.org and aimed the indoor antenna in the general direction of the Cincinnati locals (no compass avaiable). I'm a little disapointed in the results, the best signal seems to be from the Dayton NBC channel so far. The Patriots-Eagles game was awesome (the signal/image, not the teams! Go Steelers!). The WLWT signal cuts in and out with a lot of pixilation. Most of the other locals aren't much better. We have a lot of tall trees in our backyard.

When we built the house 4 years ago, I pre-wired the entire place, and I have a dual RG-6 bundle of wire in my attic specifically to address addtional antennas (beyond the 2 dual runs for the DirecTV dish already being used). So, I'm thinking to put a rood top HD antenna up to use with the new TV as I mentioned at the beginning.

What kind do you suggest? I am located about 1 mile north of Loveland on Ohio RT-48 on top of a hill, but with tall tree's behind me. 2 story house. My main interest is the Cincinnati channels, getting Dayton or anything else isn't a big deal, nice to have at best. I'd like to keep the cost down if possible, but I don't want to do it half a**ed either. I was thinking of connecting the outdoor antenna to a home run location in my basement, use a 4 way distribuation amp and send the signal to the new HD unit and prepare for more TV's in the next year or so.

Sorry for the long post.


Well, here is a quick update on my situation. Basically nothing has happened at my house, but I want to get an OTA antenna up soon. At least now I can get an AM21 to match up with m HR21-700 DirecTV HD DVR and if it works as spec'd then it will be perfect for my situation.

As I mention above, I live a mile north of Loveland. My primary interest is picking up the Cincinnati OTA HD and FM stations. So far I've looked at various VHF/UHF/FM antennas and found quite a few that will do the job. The Winegard Prostar 7010/7015 seem to be well suited and priced right, but I'm open to any suggestions.

If I wanted to try to pick up the Dayton stations with out a rotor or multiple antennas & A/B switch, what would you recommend?

I also want to utilize the FM capability of the antenna too. Just to be clear since I don't see the actual hookup diagrams anywhere I look, to hook up the FM output to my home AV receiver I would need to place a splitter close to my TV and receiver and one lead goes to the HDTV or AM21 and the other to the AV Receiver correct?

I am assuming that I'll put a simple 4 way distribution amp in my wiring rack so I can use the OTA antenna as a source for multiple TV's around the house. Any suggestions?

I want to do as much of the work myself, but getting on the roof and doing the OTA mounting and aiming is not possible due to issues with my balance. Suggestions for local installers?

Anyone using a attic mounted antenna with success locally?

Final question: How have others in the area grounded their OTA antennas? From what I can tell DirecTV has not done any type of grounding of the HD Dish on my roof. I want to be safe, but not go overboard on costs if I can help it.

thanks!

I am located about 1 mile north of Loveland on Ohio RT-48 on top of a hill, but with tall tree's behind me. 2 story house....

.....As I mention above, I live a mile north of Loveland. My primary interest is picking up the Cincinnati OTA HD and FM stations. So far I've looked at various VHF/UHF/FM antennas and found quite a few that will do the job. The Winegard Prostar 7010/7015 seem to be well suited and priced right, but I'm open to any suggestions.


Sounds like you should be in a strong signal area for Both Dayton+Cincinnati, but just in case, you might want to check out (and/or post your plots so we can see what you're dealing with as well) the www.tvfool.com plots for your location to make sure -- It's much better/much more accurate for signal predictions than antennaweb, and for example it even has WPTO-DT's transmitter in the correct location (Antennaweb does not, or at least didn't last I looked) ...

But, assuming there are no significant terrain issues ----(could still be higher hills or higher "flat ground" to your north which could cause problems for Dayton, for example - tvfool would tell us this) ---- Yep, many good options that would probably work well, one of those winegard antennas you mention on the roof for Cincinnati DTV/TV/FM seem like good choices to me, with rotor for Dayton and/or WKOI. I think one of those may be what TNT Pictures usually installs, and may be what jimp2244 is using from near Sharonville with good results (with rotor for Dayton+Cincinnati) ....

I wish Winegard would put a polar plot in their spec sheet for their antennas patterns for mid-FM band though ... I currently use a Winegard PR5030 (ch 2~13+FM) for VHF/FM, and also at one time was using a much larger Winegard CH-5100 (broadband VHF antenna - long discontinued) for FM/VHF. And I have noticed that it seems both of those antennas seem to have more gain on mid-FM band frequencies(especially right around 98 MHZ) off the BACK side of the antenna rather than the front ... But, for channel 6 and at low and hi-end of FM band, it performs as you'd expect ....


If I wanted to try to pick up the Dayton stations with out a rotor or multiple antennas & A/B switch, what would you recommend?


Can't really think of anything to recommend which would be likely to provide good reception for Dayton+Cincinnati TV/DTV (and cincinnati FM) without the use of a rotor or seperate antennas on seperate feedlines with A/B switch before receiver(s) to switch between them .... Either of those choices would likely be your best options for Dayton+Cincinnati ....

It's possible you might have some sort of luck receiving both Dayton+Cincinnati, receiving either Dayton or Cincinnati off the "back side* of an antenna such as Winegard 7010/7014, but I'd guess the chances probably aren't all that good you'll get reliable reception of stations received off the back side of it .... Also, WSTR is several miles North of the other cincinnati stations, which means you might have to aim your antenna "in between" WSTR and the other Cincinnati stations for best results, which would have the back side of your antenna probably not aimed near Dayton ....

If you didn't want to use antenna for FM however, I suppose you could try a UHF 2 or 4 bay bowtie (CM4221, DB4, etc - 8 bay might be a little "too-directional" for your circumstances), and try removing the reflector screen, which should pretty much make these antennas bi-directional and might give you a bit of a shot of receiving both Cincinnati+Dayton with good results with same antenna (that would have the best shot of working if Cincinnati+Dayton stations were about 180 degrees apart from receive location) ... But, it would also reduce it's performance on Hi-VHF band (ch 7~13), what little "performance" those antennas have on Hi-VHF, thus you might need to add a seperate hi-VHF antenna aimed at Cincinnati for WCPO-DT reception (And for WKRC-DT reception post transition) .....

Another option might be a "smartenna", but the receiver has to have the interface for it(I don't know if your receiver does or not), and the smartennas they have I don't think will work well for FM ... Of course, with smartenna, the receiver with smartenna interface controls/adjusts the antenna for best results on any given station, so you probably wouldn't want to use it for multiple receivers/TV's where you might want to watch different channels/stations, simultanously ....

Back in the 70's, (can't remember the manufactuer), you used to be able to get a antenna setup called a "Cincinnati/Dayton" special ... This consisted of two antennas, which you spaced about 3~5 feet apart on mast and you hooked them together on the same feedline .... One antenna was specifically designed for reception of Cincinati stations on the air at the time, the other for Dayton .... The antennas were designed specifically to be used in this manner, and the elements were cut specifically for the channels/frequencies those stations were broadcasting on. It only worked really well to receive those specific stations(which are still of course on the air until 2/17/09 --- They were for - 2,7,16,22 Dayton, 5,9,12,19,48 (maybe 54 I don't recall)Cincinnati, I don't think WPTO was included in the design because of their different/Oxford transmit location .... You'll still see these in use or on some rooftops even nowadays .... But of course, that sort of thing doesn't work very well when new stations come on air, or when stations move around on the dial, and wouldn't work very well for digital nowadays which transmit on different channels(most will be post-transition as well) than those, or for the many other stations (LP stations, WRGT, WBDT, WKOI, WSTR) that have came on air since the 70's ...


I also want to utilize the FM capability of the antenna too. Just to be clear since I don't see the actual hookup diagrams anywhere I look, to hook up the FM output to my home AV receiver I would need to place a splitter close to my TV and receiver and one lead goes to the HDTV or AM21 and the other to the AV Receiver correct?


Yes, that should work fine+also allows you to put a FM trap in line before the HDTV/AM21 if needed but not the FM receiver. If they still make them, another option is to use a Winegard CA-8800 FM/TV band(VHF+UHF) seperator instead of a splitter - You lose a bit less signal with one of those vs. a 2 way splitter ...

On the feed from my "main" VHF/FM antenna, I use a CA-8800 before my VHF preamp+Traps, with "FM" out going to FM receivers and "TV" out going to FM traps/channel traps I use to knock down Dayton analog 2+7 before an amp, then to VHF/UHF combining with CM0549 before distribution to various devices in various rooms ... Oh, BTW, I use a seperate UHF antenna -- AntennadirectXG91 - These "main" UHF and VHF/FM antennas also are used with a rotor, and I also use yet another seperate antenna setup on seperate feedline(with A/B switches before receivers/devices) for Dayton reception ...

Fully Explaining the details regarding how I handle the amplification for the different antennas +distribution would probably get more lengthly than you'd like to hear, so I'll leave out those details. But, it certianly works VERY nicely, even for reception of the LP analog stations in the area, and currently for reception of WAVE 3 Louisville, WCMH 4 Columbus+ usually WRTV 6 Indy -- I Like watching their local newscasts occasionally -- will lose them on a "Regular" basis post-transition though, as for various reasons I can only acheive lo-VHF reception regularly at those distances given the distance/curvature of earth+terrain issues involved at my receive location - It of course Helps WAVE 3 has a 2000 foot tower ....) ...

But, In short, I have something like 15 or so different devices hooked up to the antennas in 4 different rooms - Some devices/receivers do get more "signal" than others on which I don't necessarily need good reception of, for example, the LP stations .... Also, I Only have the feed from Dayton UHF antenna+the Main/Cincinnati VHF PR5030(Mainly So I can get WCPO-DT, and in the future WKRC-DT on the HDTV in bedroom along with the Dayton stations) going into two rooms, the other two rooms get feeds from both antennas+have A/B switches before receivers to switch between them .....


I am assuming that I'll put a simple 4 way distribution amp in my wiring rack so I can use the OTA antenna as a source for multiple TV's around the house. Any suggestions?


Probably a good idea, I'll leave it to others to make specific suggestions for make/models of amps you might want to look at ....

But, Do note This is where you might get into some trouble with "overload" issues ... Particurarly perhaps regarding the Strong FM signals in the area which can cause problems for TV as well if the amp/front end of Receiver becomes overloaded with these strong signals to the point IMD is created(intermodulation distortion occurs), which I'm pretty sure will happen with an amp but w/o a FM trap in line before it .....

Sorry for being a bit repetitive here --- but, You probably don't want to get an amp with too much gain(as some of the signals, especially the Cincinnati stations will probably be VERY strong and could easily overload your receiver's front end) ---and, you'll probably want to have a FM trap before, or in the amp (many Amps have built-in switchable FM traps) for the distribution to the TV's/DTV receivers/etc --- But, OTOH you don't want the FM trap (or a amp either, probably) in line before the FM receiver(s) you're going to hook up to the antenna. And you probably won't want an amp before the FM receivers either, unless you're going to be feeding MANY FM receivers with the signal - In which case, you still probably don't want something with a lot of gain for an FM amp(which will probably need to be a seperate amp for what you're using for the TV's), given how strong many FM signals will be at your location -- FM receivers typically have very good sensitivity and can very easily be "overload " ...

So, you'd probably want a splitter or (even better CA-8800 TV/FM band seperator) before the amp (s) ... usually, when possible we want to keep coax between antenna+amp fairly short, and we would usually not want to split the signal (that will cause about 4~5db of loss - In comparision, RG6 looses about 6~8db or so per 100FT at high UHF frequencies) before the amp, but in this case you're probably going to have to use either a splitter, or CA-8800 TV/FM seperator(don't have the specs handy, but IF I recall correctly, will only cause about .5~1dB loss) before the amp so you don't end up with a FM trap in line before the FM receiver(s) ....


I want to do as much of the work myself, but getting on the roof and doing the OTA mounting and aiming is not possible due to issues with my balance. Suggestions for local installers?


Several have reported good results using TNT pictures (search this thread for them for more info) .... You might want to PM Splicer010 as well, he indicated in a recent post that he is doing OTA antenna installs ....

BTW, IF I recall correctly, I think TNT uses the Winegard Prostar(7010/7014 or 7015) antennas for their installs, or at least I think they did at one time ....

Given we won't have any Lo-VHF stations post-transition, and there are none now for Digital/HD in Dayton Or Cincinnati (unless some "new" ones come on air) --- Just a thought, but you might also want to think about seperate antennas for TV+FM ... Winegard + antennacraft have a couple of new antenna models specifically designed for TV Ch 7~69 reception ..... The "long" elements at the back of VHF/UHF/FM combos which makes up the 'biggest part" of these types of antennas are mainly for Lo-VHF (54~88MHZ - ch 2-6) reception ....


Final question: How have others in the area grounded their OTA antennas?


Most definitely My antenna masts/tower(and self-installed E* dish), and Coax runs(ground blocks) are properly(reasonably properly anyway) grounded and bonded to the Main A/C service ground .... For me, Since my tower/Antennas, dish and phone(underground) line are on opposite side of house from the A/C service ground (partly for safety reasons!) --- there is seperate ground rod for Phone line, and I have seperate ground rod(s) for the Dish (and tower legs - although they are probably pretty much already grounded fairly well as is), and have buried #4 copper wire that takes shortest route around house to bond the grounds from Phone line, sat dish, antenna mast, coax runs to the A/C service ground ... Not necessarily the most Ideal situation,(as ideally the main A/C service ground and Antennas/dish would be on same side of house) but necessary for safety reasons to have them on the other side of house from where the utility lines are, and preferred for aesthetic reasons as well .....


Anyone using a attic mounted antenna with success locally?


I have a CM3010 "stealthtenna"(and it's internal CM3038 preamp) Laying in attic I use on my Dayton Antenna setup, but ONLY currently for analog VHF channel 2+7 reception on a couple of TV's and for FM reception on one FM receiver ..... It's combined in the attic with VHF/UHF combiner with the feed from a 25 Element UHF yagi I use for Dayton UHF(All Dayton digitals are UHF, btw, and will be post-transition as well) which is outdoors, side mounted to tower .... My "main" antenna setup I use for Cincinnati, and For FM on a couple of receivers and for Dx'ing/etc is obviously outdoors "on top" of the tower as well ....

I have done some experimenting, and really, for my specific circumstances, as it turns out attic antennas just don't work very well, even though the roof is just shingles and wood .... For indoor reception, a small, simple antenna(such as "rabbit ears" for VHF+ a folded dipole or loop for UHF) in a 2nd story window facing the towers (South for Cincinnati/East for Dayton) works much better than any antenna in the attic ....

YMMV though, many folks have reported good results with attic antenna setups, especially probably in strong signal areas ... However, even in strong signal areas Multipath+issues with the antenna becoming "coupled" to nearby objects(anything near antenna becomes connected to it) can be a real pain with messing around with positioning/placing antennas and finding that "sweet spot" to put the antenna ....

Probably more than you wanted to know, but there's some thoughts, in case they are of any use ...

I don’t have much to add to Jeff’s comments above, but I’m curious why you would want Cincinnati OTA when you said you have HD DirecTV… you would already have the Cincinnati locals in HD through that. FM reception, Dayton reception, sure... But why Cincinnati OTA when it’s included with DirecTV? Just curious.

I have a homemade “unreflected DB4/4221-type” antenna in my attic, which is about 25’ off the ground (though I am near the top of a hill too). This would be about the same as Jeff’s suggestion to buy an antenna of this type and remove the reflector screen (at least, I like to think my workmanship is equal to the commercial version. ;) ). I am in Evendale and I can get all of the Cincinnati stations (including WCPO, even though the antenna isn’t supposed to get VHF), locked in the 90s and even 100%, Dayton CBS and Fox between 80 and 95%, and Dayton NBC, ABC, and PBS around 70-75%. Because it’s not reflected, I also pick up WKOI and WSTR in the 90s, even though they’re off to the side. I can not get Dayton CW though – I think I would need a directional, reflected antenna (and probably outdoors) to get it… but of course, you are closer to Dayton and in a better geographic location than I am, being in Loveland. You can read mine and Jeff’s discourse on homemade vs. store-bought antennas and results a few pages back in this thread, but if you are a handy DIY type and have some spare Romex and a balun, screws, washers, and a piece of 1x4 or 2x4 laying around, you could make one for free and try it without the hassle of buying, disassembling, installing, and potentially having to reassemble and return. I’ve enjoyed the “tinkering”, experimental aspect of making my own.

Good luck!

You might want to PM Splicer010 as well, he indicated in a recent post that he is doing OTA antenna installs Thanks for the shout out there Jeff :D ...Yes he PM'd me and I am just waiting his reply...

As to why he would want Cinti channels...I pressume he would get a much better PQ since OTA is not compressed at all and he would receive the full bandwidth that is dedictaed to each and every channel...The bonus would be additional NKY and Dayton stations and with the proper antenna...possibly other markets as well...Then he could dump Direc and save a small fortune...

I haven't seen D*'s HD LiL quality, but if they do it right, reencoding from MPEG2 sources to using AVC/H.264 (MPEG4) for better efficiency vs. MPEG2 at "ATSC" bitrates (which is what the stations encode with, and is what is sent OTA and usually to cableco's and DBS, often these days IMO with too high compression ratio to "Fit in" more multicasting of SD "subchannels"/etc - which especially "shows up" during bandwidth demanding/difficult to encode portions of content content) certianly can work very well without reducing PQ in any sort of noticable fashion ... It certianly really can't end up being higher quality than what the stations are sending them from their MPEG2 encoders, however ....

The bonus would be additional NKY and Dayton stations and with the proper antenna...

yeah, and to expand on that a bit :

I think D* only carries Cincinnati ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox Digital/HD services currently via HD LiL if you're in Cincinnati DMA, and they offer none of the multicast SD services the stations offer OTA ...

There's a thread somewhere that says they are planning on PBS HD carriage, but I'd guess probably only one station, which I'd guess probably would be WCET-DT. Which I think has the least amount of PBS HD/Widescreen programming currently of the 4 PBS member stations in Dayton/Cincinnati ...

Can't really imagine why most folks, even those with cable/satellite wouldn't want to use OTA in this area. Given the Different HD programming schedules (currently at least) from all 4 Cincinnati/Dayton PBS HD affiliates, MyTV HD from Cincinnati, CW HD from Dayton, and numerious digital SD multicast services offered by Cincinnati/Dayton DTV stations + add any Analog LP's that aren't carried by the provider ... And, also the sometimes different Network HD programming from the Dayton affiliates -- Such as different sports/games sometimes, and sometimes Dayton stations will carry Network HD when the Cincinnati station has "billy graham" or other programming - For example, I notice WCPO often airs different local or syndicated programming on Friday or Saturday nights when WKEF-DT has ABC HD programming .. Then, there are times when Cincy or Dayton affilate breaks into programming for emergency info (severe weather/etc), or in some cases drops from HD to insert local graphics or school closings info, or distorts the Pictures to "squeeze in" various local graphics .... Sometimes it happens when affilates in both markets do that, but oftentimes it's only one or the other ...

In other words, unless all you care about is having a single source for HD from ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox (and don't care about getting such things as some different NFL HD games from Dayton affiliates), and the local/syndicated programming the Cincinnati ABC/CBS/NBC Fox affiliates offer .... In this area at least, There are LOTS of good reasons to justify say, getting an antenna with rotor installed on the roof and using OTA for ifyou're also getting HD LiL from D*, or really for that matter in most cases if you are using cable, or if you're SD only and getting LiL from E* or D* ....

Jeff - yeah, okay, I had a complete brain-fart about the PBS subchannels. Duh. Obviously you wouldn't get those with DirecTV.

I wasn't questioning why he wouldn't want OTA for Dayton though. I definitely see the advantages there. I was just thinking a directional antenna towards Dayton, plus Cincinnati stations on the DirecTV. But as I said, forgot about subchannels. Must've been something I had for lunch.

As for splicer's comment... I dropped my old (SD) DirecTV and went all-OTA for just the reason mentioned (free!!!!)... and thus, I have not seen DirecTV's HD PQ in order to make a comparison. With just the monthly cost of the basic SD package that I had (no bells and whistles), I am, as I like to say, "already saving a new HDTV a year". ;)

I wasn't questioning why he wouldn't want OTA for Dayton though. I definitely see the advantages there. I was just thinking a directional antenna towards Dayton, plus Cincinnati stations on the DirecTV.

Where I'm at (North Of Middletown, Butler/Montgomery county line and the Cincinnati/Dayton DMA boundry is about 1000 Feet to my north) -- That's exactly what several of my neighbors do, especially folks who work in Dayton and want to see Dayton local news ... E* or D* with LiL for Cincinnati (Since I and closest neighbors are in Cincinanti DMA even though we're only 13 miles from Dayton TV towers, LOL), and Antenna pointed at Dayton ....

But, for me, I certianly wouldn't want to be without OTA from both markets, including for the stuff that is available OTA, but not via D* LiL ... Regarding Cincinnati Personally, and currently -- especially for KET HD - which currently IMO offers the best PBS HD PQ in the area, as well as for KET1, 2 KET KY for that matter, and for WPTO-DT's HD programming/schedule ...

Is KET still 1080i or have they changed to 720p???

[QUOTE=Nitewatchman;13858989]...
There's a thread somewhere that says they are planning on PBS HD carriage, but I'd guess probably only one station, which I'd guess probably would be WCET-DT. Which I think has the least amount of PBS HD/Widescreen programming currently of the 4 PBS member stations in Dayton/Cincinnati ...


I believe WCET-DT carries every HD program available from PBS in HD. Do you mean they don't repeat the programs as much as the other PBS member stations? Also, say I live on the east side of Cincinnati and want to watch "Carrier" in HD off-air. Which PBS member station gives the most bandwidth to the broadcast? WPTD, about 9 Mbps: WPTO, also less than 9 Mbps because of all the subchannels; WOSU, again less than 9 Mbps; KET, 8-10 Mbps. WCET-DT, 14.5 Mbps. Those were the #'s I got when I analyzed the streams a few months back but it seems no comparison on the HD picture quality.

Nick

KET-HD is variable bit rate up to 11.8 Mbps for the video and a fixed bit rate of 384kbps for the audio. The feed is in 720p.

I'll answer your question .....


Do you mean they don't repeat the programs as much as the other PBS member stations?


That is not what I meant.

wkoi 43.1-.5 has a ok signal but alot of atifacts in the picture like the sigal is not comming in good I am getting a singnal around44-51. Could it be the weather causeing this all the other digital channels iIget are fine and dont have this problem?

WCET has really started to irk me lately with a lot of their practices. At this point I have switched most of my PBS recordings to the other stations, while I used to use WCET for almost everything.

What is it that's bothering you? I use WCET-DT almost exclusively due to the fact that WPTO/WPTD insist on running 5 channels all at the same time, 3 of which I consider to be useless bandwidth hogs.

I wasn't going to comment on this any further, but the thread doesn't seem very active currently, and thought perhaps I should say :

As for me, I didn't intend to "dis" CET with my earlier comments. Instead, my intention for that post was to illustrate some of the reasons why a D* user in Cincy area with HD LiL service(or pretty much anyone else for that matter) might want to use OTA DTV/HD as well.

#1). As for CET, HD+"full resolution" SD Widescreen (full height Widescreen SD upconverted at PBS and sent on their HD feeds - not taken from a letterboxed SD feed), the way I understand it is :

I think the lack from CET-HD currently of some programming which is currently available as HD or Full-height/resolution Widescreen(upconverted to HD by PBS) from other PBS member stations in the area has to do with when PBS sends the HD feeds vs. SD feeds for that programming. Given CET I think often airs the SD feed from a direct feed from PBS, or ASAP(more or less) to "fit"/match their analog station programming schedule.

I just said that's the way it is, currently. I didn't say that was a "bad" thing in the overall/longer term sense. In fact, from what I've read about changes PBS will be making over the next 9 months or so, perhaps the way CET is doing it now will result in a smoother transition when PBS makes some of the reported changes mentioned below .....

I think the good news for the not-too-distant-future regarding CET-HD and how they are currently programming it from a "HD/SD widescreen(full height SD widescreen off a PBS HD feed that is) programming" perspective may involve some of the info contained in following article (I posted this earlier in this thread I think, but if not, here it is again ) :

http://www.current.org/dtv/dtv0802hd.shtml

If the info in the article holds true, sounds like by analog shut off we're not only going to get more HD programming from PBS in primetime --- it also says they are discontinuing their SD feeds of the "main" PBS schedule, and it sounds like they may be saying when they feed the HD for the Children's/APTS/etc. programming will make more "sense" for stations as well ....

So, hopefully, some of the changes at PBS will also allow CET-HD to provide much more HD/full-rez SD widescreen programming in the near future. Including from APTS and childrens' programming which for example the ThinkTV HD services do currently offer.

In any case, as I've said before, I think it will be interesting to see how the reported upcoming changes at PBS regarding the HD feeds/programming works out for all the PBS member stations in the area ....

------------------------------------------------------------

Part #2). PBS HD PQ

As for HD PQ comparisions among stations, it's certianly not all about looking at the "numbers". Although I think that can be useful to some extent to help us understand what is going on. There are MANY issues involved, including having nothing to do with what the "station" is doing. Such as involving quality of any conversion to 720p or 1080i at the viewer end, and other issues regarding the viewers equipment, display/settings/etc. Also, On the station side, as one example, some MPEG2 encoders have more "options" and allow for more efficiency than others.

As for why 720p works better with multicasting than 1080i :

I think it boils down to some pretty simple numbers really :

1280x720x60pfps = 55,296,000 Pixels/second.

1920x1080x30iFPS = 62,208,000 Pixels/seccond. (Or to say it another way 60 1920x540 fields per second ) -

Contrary to info I've often seen posted here and there on internet forums, OTA HD is *NOT* "uncompressed". Uncompressed HD-SDI video, is about 1.485Gb/s - see here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMPTE_292M

OTA HD It's highly (lossy)compressed even if *NO Multicasting* is occuring ... 19.383Mb/s is the Max payload available from any U.S. DTV OTA station. And, since at a minimum, we need the audio, PSIP and MPEG2 PSI info as well, for a station with a single HD service, that leaves us a little over 18Mb/s available for a single HD video stream, which for 720p is about a 49:1 compression ratio, and for 1080i is about a 55:1 ratio ....

Although he doesn't talk about newer, more efficent encoders+the improvements involved, there is a decent article explaining some of this in more detail, but mostly in layman's terms here :

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/itshdtv.htm

If we look at KET HD's bitrate for their 720p(11.8Mb/s max per William's post) Video stream, and compare it to CET-HD(around 14.5Mb/s max, during HD it's often running around 13.5~13.9 Mb/s from what I have seen) for their 1080i, I think The compression ratio/bits per pixel end up being roughly the same ....... However, as Tvnick noted -- This doesn't tell the whole story. For instance, you'll often see bandwidth demanding portions of content break up into "blockiness" on CET-HD, such that less resolvable detail than a low-quality VHS analog recording results during very short periods, when it doesn't happen on KETHD (such as during scenes from the Deck of Nimitz with lots of fast motion or camera movement During "Carrier") .... I don't know, but suspect this may mostly be because KETHD is probably using a more efficent HD encoder.

Now, that being said, all of my HD displays are CRT, and don't scan 720p, natively, and yes, although 720p looks very good as well, personally and "selfishly" for my equipment/displays, I generally prefer 1080i, but only if its given enough "bits" ------ which isn't a specific # I can quote, since again, some stations are using more efficent encoders/are using their bandwidth efficently using well implemented Statistical Multiplexing/etc, and others are not ... Although, so far I personally haven't actually seen 1080i HD at say, 15~16 Mb/s from a station using a more efficent encoder look any better, or even as good as say, a station running a old Flexicoder at 18Mb/s (or that was at one time) ....

And, I will say, IMO, the *BEST* PBS HD PQ I've personally seen so far *WAS* from WCET-DT, but only for a short time when they first came on air in Late 2002. At that time, they weren't multicasting. I didn't have the capability to analyze their Transport stream at the time, so I can't comment on what the bitrate for the HD video was, or how much was in the null packet stream.

I will also say the worst I have seen so far is from the ThinkTVHD services, currently -- I must say, I am surprised, however, that it doesn't look worse than it does currently. Given the bitrates for the HD video involved from them ---- (Since they've went to 4SD+1HD, I've seen it between about 6.5Mb/s Minimum and a little over 11Mb/s max from either WPTD-DT or WPTO-DT, average seems to be around 8~9Mb/s or so) ---- the way they have it set up certianly seems to be quite efficient. It just looks really bad during bandwidth demanding portions of content, especially it seems during scene changes. I think it might be interesting to see what it would look like if they would send 720p with their current bitrates .....

12.1 could be better in HD I see alot of pixelation when the strob lights would go off during the Acadamy of Country Music Awards Show tonight. Is this normal? Are they giving enough bandwith to 12.1? I am talking about over the air and not cable or satelite. My 26" Sharp Aquos only gets 720p not 1080p but can read it. I believe it down converts the 1080p HD signal to 720p.

You should have seen HD "Victoria's Secret Fashion show" On WKRC-DT or WHIO-DT ....

Scenes with strobes are probably among the most difficult content to encode with MPEG2 ... There can be problems with them with MPEG2 at 1080i and 18Mb/s, but not nearly as bad as with a old flexicoder at 15Mb/s ...

In order to improve HD quality from WKRC-DT 12.1 and get it up to the current quality of CBS O&O stations(which don't multicast), I'd think they'd likely need to get rid of CW SD subchannel, and/or use a more efficient encoder ....

Update: BTW, In most cases, Cable gets the same from the station as is sent OTA, and in most cases, cable doesn't reencode it or change anything that would change the video or audio quality ---in other words the quality sent to cable customers is the same thing the station sends OTA) -- Sat gets the same thing from the station as well, but D* reeencodes it using MPEG4 (AVC/H.264 I think) .... Depending upon how they do it, the latter may or may not involve any noticable differences in quality for the user vs. what station is sending OTA .... I haven't seen it, so can't comment ....

Well fellow forumers, I think I can say with confidence that pixelization and other bandwidth problems will be the new fuzzy/sparkle problems we had with analog. Sure, when digital is given enough bandwidth, it looks great. When you live right next to an analog transmitter, it looks great. But when too little bandwidth is given to a channel, it reminds me of when I was living 60 miles from the tower and picture problems were obvious.

But, oh well, the sell off of the bandwidth will certainly lower our taxes! Pause, NOT! The converter boxes should be free, no coupon needed. Hopefully new encoding technology can be used so we, the viewers, can live through the total lack of respect for picture quality by ALL ota/sat/cable channels.

Revisiting another WCET topic from a while back….

Over the weekend I was fiddling with the antennas in my attic, and while doing that and “rescanning” for channels in my HDHomerun and SageTV software, I now have a strange phenomenon occurring.

As was mentioned here before, WCET digital – broadcasting at channel 34 but remapped to 48.1 and 48.2 – was adding a third channel, 48.3. At the time this was brought up, the channel was apparently in testing mode and was not showing anything. Well, on Friday evening when I rescanned, it was showing programs… but… it was not remapping to 48.3. Instead, I had a channel 34 (.x, I don’t remember if it was .1 or .3) showing up in my channel lineup. I still had 48.1 and 48.2 where they should be, but 34.x was in the lineup and there was actually a programming schedule listed, but it was all wrong (SageTV gets the EPG from zap2it.com).

So apparently:
-48.3 is active and showing programming
-48.3 is not sending remapping information
-48.3 is not sending (at least zap2it) the correct programming information.

…or at least Friday night, that was the case. ;)

I deactivated the channel on my program guide, since the lineup appeared to be similar to 14/16’s subchannels and it was wrong anyway. If they get it straight in the future, someone post so I can go back and turn it on again. :)

I get WCET 34.3 and 34.4 showing no broadcast now. I type in 34, 34.1 or 34.2 it takes me to 34.3 weird.

PAT(program assocation table) info for the OTA mux from WCET-DT as shown by TSreader, captured from tonite just before they went off air around 1AM :

PAT Version Number: 6
Transport Stream ID: 2249 (0x08c9)

PMT PID 48 (0x0030) - Program 3 CET-HD
PMT PID 64 (0x0040) - Program 4 CETWrld
PMT PID 96 (0x0060) - Program 6
PMT PID 112 (0x0070) - Program 7

-----------

Program 3(CET-HD) maps to 48.1 in their PSIP TVCT(terristrial virtual channel table) and Program 4 (CETworld) maps to 48.2 in PSIP TVCT.

Program 6+7 are what I'll call "ghost" streams, no info on them in TVCT. They are in PAT, and have PMTs, and also have "ghost" elementary Video streams(PID's at 0x006a for program 6 and 0x007a for program 7 respectively - No "ghost" audio streams or any other streams associated with them) -- but these "ghost" video streams are not "real" valid video streams, and have max bandwidth of about 89Kb/s currently.

Without PSIP, 34.3 is CET-HD(48.1 via PSIP TVCT - 48 major channel number, ".1" minor channel number), 34.4 is CET world (48.2 via PSIP TVCT), 34.6, 34.7 are the ghost streams and would be "blank" .... There is no "program 1" or "program 2" ....

We saw this happen before for a time a while back. After a time, the "ghost streams" went away, and I first noticed the ghost streams were back from them yesterday ...

Different receivers obviously behave differently when such "ghost streams" are present, possibly even regarding the "numbers" involved ...

BTW, unrelated but have noticed for quite some time now, TS error checking software here shows constant(10's or 100's per minute) Continuity or TEI errors in WCET-DT's stream at 0x0911 (I think that is D-EAS stream), and occasional Continuity/TEI errors in their EIT streams as well(more rarely, Note I also occasionally get errors in the EIT's from WKRC-DT and WHIO-DT). Video/audio streams (for program 3+4 - i.e. "48.1 and 48.2") have allways been fine whenever I've captured anything from it/checked them for errors, and haven't had any problems decoding their PSIP/Eit's either, even with the occasional TEI/continuity errors in their EIT's ...

Attached zip file contains TSreader HTML export file+thumbnails for CET-HD -Unfortunetly, you don't get as much detail in the HTM file as you do via the TSreader GUI (no STT info for instance) .... Also note the 3.19Mb/s in their null packet stream ... For at least the past several months, I've never seen it go below 2.11 Mb/s (as reported by TSreader), even when CET-HD is at the Max bitrate(around 14.3~14.5mb/s I believe) .... Oh, also note the "ATSC redistrubition control descriptor" in PMT ... otherwise known as "RC descriptor" or the "Broadcast Flag" ... It's turned "off", I believe, but my understanding is, many stations using Flexicoders often still have it in their stream, due to a "upgrade" to the Flexicoders for the Broadcast flag ... Fox stations(via the splicer) and at least some CBS stations(It's in WKRC's and WHIO's, but that may be more because they're both using Flexicoders - or at least I know both of them were) still have it in their stream as well for "other reasons" from what I've read ...

Update: Oh, forgot to mention there is currently also one other station in area with a "ghost stream" .. WHIO-DT Dayton has a third program stream that is not in TVCT, and there are no "real" video/audio streams for it, present either, in their case, unlike with WCET-DT, there are no elementary streams or PID's present for them ... (although they are "described" in PMT) ....

Anyone been upgraded to Navigator yet?

Is it really as bad as all the other markets are saying? Some have had this for months now.....so am hoping TW here has resolved some of the bugs. Any comments would be appreciated

Tony

Anyone been upgraded to Navigator yet?

Is it really as bad as all the other markets are saying? Some have had this for months now.....so am hoping TW here has resolved some of the bugs. Any comments would be appreciated

Tony

It stinks. Bad. Slow as the day is long.

What is it that's bothering you? I use WCET-DT almost exclusively due to the fact that WPTO/WPTD insist on running 5 channels all at the same time, 3 of which I consider to be useless bandwidth hogs.
They are sending only two subchannels over-the-air (CET-HD and CET-World). With this line up I would expect them to be where the other stations in the area are. WLWT gives 16-17Mbps to their HD channel, while WCET is giving 14Mbps or less to CET-HD. The reason is because they are encoding for Time Warner Cable an extra channel (CET Create), but they delete this channel from the OTA broadcast. So, we get a whole subs worth of null packets instead of additional bandwidith for CET-HD. They need to decide whether Create is important or not and either give it to the OTA viewers, or delete it altogether and increase bandwidth to CET-HD (I'd strongly urge the latter). I'm really not sure how a public television station catering to the cable company but not OTA viewers makes any sense as far as the station's purpose goes...

Additionally they've been missing a lot of HD content lately. For example I used to record NOVA and Frontline from them but recently these programs have shown in letterboxed SD several times, which when converted to the HD channel are showing up as window-boxed (black bars on all four sides with a small rectangle of video in the middle of the screen).

New Tube no longer available Graphic on 19.2. Why cant they just put programing on it? What a waste of bandwith for just a stupid graphic saying the tube is not thier anymore. Its not like they dont got old shows that they can use on it. or even license out that retro network and put it on it.

Additionally they've been missing a lot of HD content lately. For example I used to record NOVA and Frontline from them but recently these programs have shown in letterboxed SD several times, which when converted to the HD channel are showing up as window-boxed (black bars on all four sides with a small rectangle of video in the middle of the screen).
I second that, Jim. I've seen several programs lately that are window-boxed. Makes me mad. "The program was shot in HD, you have it available to you in HD, you have the capability to broadcast HD, but you are not sending it in HD??? Grrrrrrr...." :mad:

New Tube no longer available Graphic on 19.2. Why cant they just put programing on it? What a waste of bandwith for just a stupid graphic saying the tube is not thier anymore. Its not like they dont got old shows that they can use on it. or even license out that retro network and put it on it.
With the FOX splicer system, WXIX can't increase the bandwidth of the FOX-HD stream even if they would remove 19-2. FOX network encodes the mpeg2 for broadcast and sends it that way to the affiliates which do not re-encode it. They leave room for one subchannel in case affiliate wishes to make use of it. The downside is that if they don't make use of it, that bandwidth just goes to waste. It will be interesting to see what if anything WXIX chooses to do with 19-2.

Can I just say that I love jumping to this page and the first thing you see at the top is Jeff's post that says "You should have seen HD "Victoria's Secret Fashion show" On WKRC-DT or WHIO-DT .... "

...and I think, "Yes, yes, I should have seen it." :D;):rolleyes::p

I suppose there's always next year.... (sigh)

...and I think, "Yes, yes, I should have seen it." :D;):rolleyes::p


A good portion of it (from WKRC-DT, I'm sure WHIO-DT looked about like this as well) looked like it does in the pics attached to this post ...

VsecretResized.jpg shows entire frame, but I had to resize it, because graphic attachments are limited by the forum software to 1024x768 Max. But, that resizing makes it seems "better" than is actually the case, so I've also provided a portion of the full resolution 1920x1088 frame(the portion with Vsecret girl), which is the 2nd pic "vsecret1920crop.jpg ....

Be sure to view both at 1:1 (100%) ....

And no, the blocking that's going on isn't JPG compression artifacts - sure, they're in there too, but I don't really notice them vs. what this frame looks like before adding the JPEG compression .. .... I didn't reencode this either, this is how WKRC-DT's encoder encoded it ....

This is about as bad as it gets from them, but that's not saying much .... This idea I've sometimes seen posted that you have to have a "golden eye" and be a poster on AVSforum to see these HD PQ "problem issues" when the compression ratio is too high is ridiculous, IMHO ... My 81 Year old father with cataracts sees these problems ....

And no, the blocking that's going on isn't JPG compression artifacts - sure, they're in there too, but I don't really notice them vs. what this frame looks like before adding the JPEG compression .. .... I didn't reencode this either, this is how WKRC-DT's encoder encoded it ....

This is about as bad as it gets from them, but that's not saying much ....

Maybe this is a sly version of "censoring" by a "Conservative Cincinnati" station. ;)

Seriously though, that looks pretty bad.

Seriously though, that looks pretty bad.

Well it was really bad when there were lots of strobes going off, which happened a lot in that program ...

Attached to this message are more pics of another frame from it (processed and presented the same way as the pics in my last post), but when there were not many strobes going off, and also "easier to encode" because not much more in this frame besides a girl in a chair ... this time if you look close enough some of what you see likely ARE JPEG compression artifacts added on my end....

I don't know, but I'd guess the strobes are a problem to some extent even from a CBS HD affiliate giving 18Mb/s+ to HD (not multicasting/etc), and using newer, more efficent encoder ...

That being said, I'm sure it looked better during the difficult to encode portions from affiliates not multicasting and/or using newer, more efficent encoders ....

They are sending only two subchannels over-the-air (CET-HD and CET-World). With this line up I would expect them to be where the other stations in the area are. WLWT gives 16-17Mbps to their HD channel, while WCET is giving 14Mbps or less to CET-HD. The reason is because they are encoding for Time Warner Cable an extra channel (CET Create), but they delete this channel from the OTA broadcast. So, we get a whole subs worth of null packets instead of additional bandwidith for CET-HD. They need to decide whether Create is important or not and either give it to the OTA viewers, or delete it altogether and increase bandwidth to CET-HD (I'd strongly urge the latter). I'm really not sure how a public television station catering to the cable company but not OTA viewers makes any sense as far as the station's purpose goes...

Additionally they've been missing a lot of HD content lately. For example I used to record NOVA and Frontline from them but recently these programs have shown in letterboxed SD several times, which when converted to the HD channel are showing up as window-boxed (black bars on all four sides with a small rectangle of video in the middle of the screen).

Yeah, I've noticed that and paid more attention to them since that post. I still used them for recording/watching 'Carrier'. IMO, they had less artifacting than 14/16. Thankfully they aired that whole series correctly.

Attached to this message are more pics of another frame from it ... not much more in this frame besides a girl in a chair ... if you look close enough ....

Ummm... if you insist. :D

In fact, if you post more of those pics, I'll look closely at them, too. ;)

Well it was really bad when there were lots of strobes going off, which happened a lot in that program ...


I don't know, but I'd guess the strobes are a problem to some extent even from a CBS HD affiliate giving 18Mb/s+ to HD (not multicasting/etc), and using newer, more efficent encoder ...



I can confirm that the strobes were a problem even on WBNS OTA at 18Mb/s+.

Is there a decent ATSC/QAM tuner I can buy for my 4 yr old Sammy DLP? QAM is important should I decide to keep the basic analog cable since I live in a radio wave black hole as far as OTA reception for HDTV is concerned. Online is fine, seems local brick and mortar stores don't even know what QAM means!

I apologize if this is an inappropriate question for this forum but I've searched AVS, called Cincinnati Bell & called DirecTV and can't get a straight answer.

Short of it is I'm looking at adding DirecTV via Cincinnati Bell. I already use CB for phone and DSL bundle and have been told I can also save by adding DirecTV. When I call CB they tell me $50 for the "PLUS HD DVR" package (Choice xtra + HD + DVR). I asked what the rate would be after the promo ended, I assumed they were offering a 12 month deal, and they CSR claimed that was the monthly deal PERIOD (no promo rate that would end). I called DirecTV & they tell me the rate would be $72.99 once the promo rate ends.

What am I missing? Does anyone else here use Cinti Bell with DirecTV? Is the bundled savings really that much?

Thanks and again apologies but I've tried searching & calling the various companies and can't get the straight answer.

Is there a decent ATSC/QAM tuner I can buy for my 4 yr old Sammy DLP? QAM is important should I decide to keep the basic analog cable since I live in a radio wave black hole as far as OTA reception for HDTV is concerned. Online is fine, seems local brick and mortar stores don't even know what QAM means!

I have the Samsung DTBH260F (http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-DTBH260F-HDTV-Terrestrial-Receiver/dp/tech-data/B000JV6TQY******de_a_smtd/102-8420410-7634529) but I am 99% sure it is ATSC only. I think a STB that does QAM is going to be pretty hard to find since most people that make use of QAM do so in order to avoid having a STB. Hopefully someone else has seen one and can help you out though. BTW where is this "radio wave black hole?"

Fairfield is the radio wave black hole I speak of. It's bad where I live (close to the aquatic center) and even worse up the road a bit. WLW-AM even fades out in certain areas near me.

Is there a decent ATSC/QAM tuner I can buy for my 4 yr old Sammy DLP? QAM is important should I decide to keep the basic analog cable since I live in a radio wave black hole as far as OTA reception for HDTV is concerned. Online is fine, seems local brick and mortar stores don't even know what QAM means!
I have the Samsung DTBH260F (http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-DTBH260F-HDTV-Terrestrial-Receiver/dp/tech-data/B000JV6TQY******de_a_smtd/102-8420410-7634529) but I am 99% sure it is ATSC only. I think a STB that does QAM is going to be pretty hard to find since most people that make use of QAM do so in order to avoid having a STB. Hopefully someone else has seen one and can help you out though. BTW where is this "radio wave black hole?"
If you were willing to go the HTPC route, there are numerous QAM-friendly tuners, such as the HD Homerun. That would require a purchase of a bit more equipment, although (assuming you already have a router/switch and a "decent" PC that you were willing to run 24/7), it might not be much more than a nice STB.

Look on eBay...One option is a combo ATSC-QAM tuner/upconverting DVD unit from LG the LST 3510A and can be found for about $100 shipped...There are others...Just type QAM Tuner in the search box and see what comes up...

I apologize if this is an inappropriate question for this forum but I've searched AVS, called Cincinnati Bell & called DirecTV and can't get a straight answer.

Short of it is I'm looking at adding DirecTV via Cincinnati Bell. I already use CB for phone and DSL bundle and have been told I can also save by adding DirecTV. When I call CB they tell me $50 for the "PLUS HD DVR" package (Choice xtra + HD + DVR). I asked what the rate would be after the promo ended, I assumed they were offering a 12 month deal, and they CSR claimed that was the monthly deal PERIOD (no promo rate that would end). I called DirecTV & they tell me the rate would be $72.99 once the promo rate ends.

What am I missing? Does anyone else here use Cinti Bell with DirecTV? Is the bundled savings really that much?

Thanks and again apologies but I've tried searching & calling the various companies and can't get the straight answer.Got the answer.

FWIW in case anyone else was curious I called Cinti Bell and it turns out my call yesterday was with a trainee. I WISH what she quoted was the actual deal!

It's basically the exact same deal that DirecTV offers (12 month promo price & then normal price) with a $6/month savings for bundling.

I know I might be late to the game, but is it normal for FSN-HD to have the announcers primarily out of the surrounds?

I know I might be late to the game, but is it normal for FSN-HD to have the announcers primarily out of the surrounds?

No. Its a problem.

On one game I got the announcers out of the right front speaker and the right surround speaker. Other games the announcers were only in the rear surrounds. Its very strange. Something is fouled up, but FSN-Ohio seems to have bigger problems at the moment.

I think I posted this issue in this thread before, but got no response (I posted this over at dbstalk as well). I thought I was the only one trying to listen to the game in 5.1. Thank you for confirming the problem.

Thanks for the advice about a QAM tuner guys and gals! Might be time to update the whole television it appears.... [edited for speeling]

I just moved to the Cincy area (Florence, KY) and I'm also new to HDTV/digital TV. I'm trying to learn form other threads, but some things have me a bit confused, especially QAM. If anyone can explain that one or point to an explination "for dummies", I'd appreciate it.

I'm getting an HDTV very soon. I was planning to get satellite, but I won't be home enough the really benefit, I decided to stick with OTA and just get basic cable (no set top box). So what I'm wondering is does the basic cable also show the local channels in HD/digital, or do I need an antenna to get those as well in this area?

Just for reference in case it helps, I will soon have a Mitsubishi 65736 DLP TV, an Onkyo TX-SR606 receiver and probably a MAc Mini HTPC with EyeTV. I'm just trying to get the most out of the OTA and cable (as long as it lasts)

Thanks for helping a newbie!!

This morning I was getting alot of Tropo fro Inianapolis:

63 Wipx

59 WXIN

49 WIPB

40 WHMB

23 WNDY

13 WTHR

This morning I was getting alot of Tropo fro Inianapolis:

63 Wipx

59 WXIN

49 WIPB

40 WHMB

23 WNDY

13 WTHR

Rob, Nice! Any digital or were they all analogs? Interesting all of those except WTHR are UHF stations... Are you receiving those with your FM antenna?

Yes with my fm antenna and none of them were digital. I have moded the antenna so it works alot better now changed out some of the wires on it to make it work better.

I just moved to the Cincy area (Florence, KY) and I'm also new to HDTV/digital TV. I'm trying to learn form other threads, but some things have me a bit confused, especially QAM. If anyone can explain that one or point to an explination "for dummies", I'd appreciate it.

I'm getting an HDTV very soon. I was planning to get satellite, but I won't be home enough the really benefit, I decided to stick with OTA and just get basic cable (no set top box). So what I'm wondering is does the basic cable also show the local channels in HD/digital, or do I need an antenna to get those as well in this area?

Just for reference in case it helps, I will soon have a Mitsubishi 65736 DLP TV, an Onkyo TX-SR606 receiver and probably a MAc Mini HTPC with EyeTV. I'm just trying to get the most out of the OTA and cable (as long as it lasts)


QAM is how digital TV is sent on cable systems. Most will send the local channels "in the clear" (unscrambled). When I do a channel scan on my hdtv, I get several hundred channels, but most are scrambled so I get no picture and usually somewhat distorted audio. But the local channels come in fine in HD.

QAM is how digital TV is sent on cable systems. Most will send the local channels "in the clear" (unscrambled). When I do a channel scan on my hdtv, I get several hundred channels, but most are scrambled so I get no picture and usually somewhat distorted audio. But the local channels come in fine in HD.

So does that mean I don't have to bother getting and digital antenna and toggling between it and the cable to get the local HD channels? That would be great, and save me money spent on an antenna!

I was told cable/satellite providers only offer local channels in HD if you pay for premium HD service. I thought that was odd, not to mention illegal to charge for something that is free in the air. But my mother recently got DirectTV and said she cannot get the local stations in HD through DirecTV unless she buys a premium package. So I just want to be sure I will get local channel programming in HD through my Insight basic cable.

I just want to be sure I will get local channel programming in HD through my Insight basic cable.

I have Insight's basic channel package ($13.25 a month plus taxes) and I can tell you for sure that you will get most of the local HD stations if your TV has a QAM tuner. The Insight basic package includes 25 analog channels and all of the digital HD channels except WSTR (OTA ch 64.1). Insight has been unable to come to an agreement with Sinclair (WSTR's owner) to carry the HD feed. Some of the local subchannels are carried on the analog tier instead of the digital tier (for example, the CW, OTA 12.2 is carried on analog channel 25).

^^ thanks for the info! Now I just need to figure out if the TV I ordered has a QAM tuner.

I live in Union and have recently (in last three weeks) had problems picking up 5-1 and 48-1 and their side band channels. The signal drops out constantly. Real bad on my Phillips LCD, and to a lesser extend on a Vizio LCD upstairs. It makes 5-1 unwatchable.

I'd been using a small Chinese made bow-tie type outside antenna with built in amp. on my roof for about 5 years to get HD OTA without any problems. reception had been good for last two years up until a couple of weeks ago.

I went out an bought a new 20 element UHF/VHF Antenna (looks just like a Channel Master 3016). Reception is even better now, my analog 5,9,12,19 look PERFECT, which wasn't the case before.

Yet I still have same drop-outs!!! The phillips has a strength meter and shows both channels having good strength. I know 5-1 and 48-1 reside on analog channels 35 and 34 respectively. Am I getting some kind of cross interference between the two or some external radio interference? I've tried turning off every elec. device in house (A/C, fridge, computer, etc) and can't find anything causing it.

Any ideas? or maybe someone else is having same problem and just not said much about it.

Signal quality is as important as signal strength...You may have a bad fitting or splitter...Possibly your cable run is bad...Your antenna may not be high enough...someone may have built a house...a tree limb may have grown out...etc...

As you can see there are many different possibilities causing your issues...Hard to say without knowing more...

Signal quality is as important as signal strength...You may have a bad fitting or splitter...Possibly your cable run is bad...Your antenna may not be high enough...someone may have built a house...a tree limb may have grown out...etc...

As you can see there are many different possibilities causing your issues...Hard to say without knowing more...

Thanks for the quick response. I think you are on to something. I did retighten some of my connections, it didn't fix this problem but it sure wasn't helping.

Biggest problem is my antenna is only about five feet above my single level range home, which is surrounded by trees. The trees have filled in during the last month. I'd say I have twice the leaves this year as in the past, caterpillars almost killed them last year leaving my trees bare, while this year everything is flourishing.

So far, the temporarily solution has been to aim my antenna further north about ten degrees more to the left than normal, not directly where 5-1 and 48-1 transmit. They appear from tvfool and antennaweb to be coming from same location, and their signals must be bleeding into each other when I try to aim my antenna directly at their transmitter.

By offsetting my antenna, I can still pick up 5-1 without drop-outs as it is a much stronger signal and 48-1 is completely gone. I don't care about 48-1, but there seems to be a side affect of 64.1 disappearing also.

Oh well, I've got 5-1 back, I just need to figure out before college football/bb season how to get 64-1 working again. I'll probably focus on my network of splitters and combiners in my basement and make sure I'm not having a small signal drop somewhere else.

I was over my parents the other night & brought a CECB for a guest bedroom TV. It picked up all Cincy channels (plus 2 Dayton) except for channel 9. Now for them it isn't an issue since their other 3 TVs are conected to sat. It got me thinking though about those who rely solely on OTA. Come Feb 2009 there are going to be a LOT of people with very simple setups who aren't going to pick up a major channel. That seems like a problem to me for any major station using VHF.

P.S. And from what I understand 12 will also be going VHF on 2/19/09. A roof top solves all problems but I KNOW there will be a lot of lower income households that don't have that as an option. This IS going to be an issue.

There are Dayton and Cincinnati analog stations transmitting on VHF 2,5,7,9,12. It's been that way for a long time.

Most analog OTA viewers in this area should already be using a proper VHF/UHF antenna setup ( Including "rabbit ears" for indoors), so for the most part it should pretty much be a non-issue except for folks new to OTA who have unwisely purchased UHF only antennnas ...

But, various sorts of interference from household appliances (or faulty vehicle/lawn mower/etc. ignition systems) may cause "dropouts" of VHF digital stations vs. putting static/sparkles on screen with VHF analog, and the latter may be perceived by some as less annoying than "dropouts" ..... While this sort of interference can sometimes cause problems on UHF (especially if the desired signal is weak) as well, it's stronger on VHF frequencies ....

Tropo June 1, 2008

WKZT 23 from Elizabethtown, KY (over 2 hrs away) non digital

Someting religious on 21. Don't know the call letters or where its comming from.

Tropo June 1, 2008

WKZT 23 from Elizabethtown, KY (over 2 hrs away) non digital

Someting religious on 21. Don't know the call letters or where its comming from.

Probably WBNA from Louisville.

- Trip

I've got all my channels back, 5-1,48-1,64-1. Splicer010 was right. I ended up replacing some of the cheap RG-59 patch cables in my combiner/splitter system where everything comes into the house. I backfeed two DN Sat. boxes into the main system, and then re split them back out. After replacing the cheap patch cables with some custom crimped RG-6 in as short of pieces as possible, all my channels are back. I thnk the trees growing in pushed my marginal setup beyond it's limits.

Sometimes it helps for someone tell me to check the obvious.

Well I may use my small external bow-time antenna to see what I can get out of Lexington. It had a longer range then the new one i bought for UHF, but didn't have the ability to pick up everything clearly on all the Cinc. channels without aiming it 5 degrees between different signals.

:) Glad I could be of some help...

I just saw this info on Kiesewetter's Blog

http://beta.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=PluckPersona&U=5c49394b12564ab6832411d82ad3a991&plckPersonaPage=PersonaBlog&plckUserId=5c49394b12564ab6832411d82ad3a991

Transmitters on the WLWT-TV's 960-foot tower on Chickasaw Street, overlooking downtown from University Heights, must be shut down so the flashing light atop the tower can be replaced. Lightning struck the fixture with the light that flashes red at night, and a white strobe during the day.

Channel 5 will broadcast Jay Leno, Conan O'Brien and other overnight shows in analog tonight from 500 feet up the tower. Channel 5's digital signal, CET and WGUC-FM will resume broadcasting sometime 5-7 a.m. Tuesday, says Paul Nowakowski, Channel 5 chief engineer.

A four-person crew will climb the tower to make the repairs. If they don't complete the job by Tuesday morning, another climb -- and another interruption in broadcast service -- will be scheduled, he says.

One more thing: Time Warner customers will not see any disruption in service. Channels 5 and 48 provide a direct feed to Time Warner. Insight gets TV feeds from CET and Channel 5 over-the-air.

^^ Thankfully they waited until the end of the hockey game, or does D* get a fiber feed as well, I forget. I did notice that as soon as the game was over their broadcast ended.

There are Dayton and Cincinnati analog stations transmitting on VHF 2,5,7,9,12. It's been that way for a long time.Yes but;
1. VHF analog doesn't seem to be as problematic as VHF digital
2. Most accept a weak analog signal as long as they can still see some of the picture. Pixilation or a complete loss of signal is going to be seen as a step back (you alluded to this in another part of your post).

Most analog OTA viewers in this area should already be using a proper VHF/UHF antenna setup ( Including "rabbit ears" for indoors), so for the most part it should pretty much be a non-issue except for folks new to OTA who have unwisely purchased UHF only antennnas ...True, and I might be over exaggerating, but I'd bet the number not using a rooftop is more than you think (i.e. lower income households). In addition, how many of those households will effectively be reduced to one TV for watching the digital VHF stations? Many a bedroom TV is going to be isolated to UHF only viewing.

I will soon have a Mitsubishi 65736 DLP TV, an Onkyo TX-SR606 receiver and probably a MAc Mini HTPC with EyeTV. I'm just trying to get the most out of the OTA and cable (as long as it lasts)

Have you looked into SageTV for your HTPC setup? They have an HD Extender that is very nice. You could get a few tuners for your HTPC (personally I recommend the HD Homerun by SiliconDust, as it is a networked tuner box and thus can be located close to your cable entry or antennas and not suffer from coax-length-related signal loss), and then put an HD Extender at the HDTV. I believe SageTV is the only company making a basically plug-and-play HTPC Extender that does HD.

Not trying to post some ad or anything, just wanted to make sure you knew about the HD Extenders. I have been very, very pleased with mine (I'm OTA only, with two HD Homeruns and antennas in my attic).

True, and I might be over exaggerating, but I'd bet the number not using a rooftop is more than you think (i.e. lower income households).


I can receive WCPO digital just fine here from 32 miles with indoor rabbit ears. The analog 9 signal with that setup is not something I'd call acceptable, except perhaps for occasional viewing of say the news on a small TV.


In addition, how many of those households will effectively be reduced to one TV for watching the digital VHF stations? Many a bedroom TV is going to be isolated to UHF only viewing.

VHF (VHF/UHF) antennas can(and should) be hooked to "bedroom TV's" as well.


1. VHF analog doesn't seem to be as problematic as VHF digital


Doesn't seem that way to me, one possible exception being the "impulse noise" issue(lightning is natural source of it, electric motors for example are one manmade source) for VHF -- which it seems can be quite problematical at times even on VHF-HI.

Otherwise, Seems about the same, just as it was designed to be ....


2. Most accept a weak analog signal as long as they can still see some of the picture. Pixilation or a complete loss of signal is going to be seen as a step back (you alluded to this in another part of your post).


Noone ever said that a very snowy or ghosty or interference laden analog signal would be replaced by perfect digital reception. Users who are "ok" with a crappy analog signal who can't receive the digital station will have to do without, adjust/move antenna away from sources of interference, or get a better antenna system.

There will be some who have poor analog reception and will get perfect digital reception(including on VHF), or may get some occasional dropouts but still "percieve" digital as better than poor analog reception and there will be some "living with" very poor analog reception which will need to get a better antenna setup for digital.

There are also folks, such as in terrain obstructed locations whom get better VHF reception than UHF, the same is true for digital as it is for analog ....

I think The issue you are addressing is fundamentally one of analog vs. digital, not "VHF vs UHF".

With analog, you can "see" reception impariments and what is causing them on screen, and can often intuitively adjust antenna for best results/best picture. But with digital, without the use of expensive test equipment, one often does not know what is going on. In that regard, certianly I agree analog is "better" than digital.

At 12:45am 14 and 19 digital side went out. Are they working on the tower?

19 is back as of 1:57am

In case anyone is interested, there is a fairly reliable rumor that NBC Universal is going to buy The Weather Channel. I wonder what this means for 5-2 WeatherPlus...

What is the best way to split my OTA signal. Currently, it runs from my attenna directly to my D* HR20 box. I would like to split it and have a line running to both the HR20 and my TV. Found out that while you can watch OTA when the sat goes out, you can't after a power outage if the box can't see the sat first.
Is one splitter better than another, what kind of ratings should I look for.

Thanks

What is the best way to split my OTA signal.

Is one splitter better than another, what kind of ratings should I look for.

Thanks

Bill,

Depending on the signal you are getting from your antenna you may need a RF distribution amp instead of a splitter. I would try a splitter first and if you are missing any OTA channels on your satellite receiver or TV get a distribution amp.

Just about any splitter should work as long as it is rated from 54 Mhz to 550 Mhz (or higher).

Hi everyone. This is the first time I post. I bought a Vizio 26" HDTV on May 16th (Model VW26L). I am tuning via a regular antenna to view over-the-air transmissions. Since I bought the TV, I have been having problems with the TV freezing up completely (to the point that the only option is to unplug the TV from the outlet) when viewing some HDTV channels. I live in the Cincinnati area (Fort Wright, near Park Hills), and as of now, the problem has happened when viewing channel 19.1, the FOX affiliate, using the antenna. It can happen within a few minutes or up to 30-45 minutes of tuning to the channel.

The person in the help line told me that it would be a signal issue, and that there was nothing that could be done about it. But I don't think a signal can make a TV "crash" this way. When it happened, the signal was not particularly strong, but the digital channel was viewable.

Do you know of this problem occurring with Vizio TV's or other TV's? I'm trying to figure out if it is my set or if it is truly a signal issue. Has anyone had this problem.

The other issue I have is with the ABC feed WCPO. It has lip sync problems, which are specially strong on live, national shows (such as morning shows or sports). Also, it seems that the updating of the image is not as fluid, which turns up as some sort of jitter when panning. You can also see it with scrolling banners at the bottom of the screen. Is this also a known issue or could it be the TV?

My TV is 720p resolution, but other than ABC, other 1080i channels come up great.

I know it was a lengthy post, but I appreciate any insight into this!

Thanks!

Typical of a signal issue...Never heard of the TV locking up because of that though...

YEAH BABY!!! :D :D :D

I can now get my QAM channels...specifically KET and its sub channels...with the audio matching the video!!! :D No more WLWT audio on every 105 channel realm stations!!!

I MUST say THANKYOU to the people that saw to it that the correction was made...namely William and I pressume his buddy @ Time Warner!!! Hats off to you guys!!! I haven't checked to see if the channel changing still occurs just before 8PM since this discovery...The last time I noticed it was a couple nights ago...I think...when I got the changes about 4 times...Was really getting worse...But even if it still does it...I can live with it as long as I can still get all my channels...

This goes to show what I thought was happening...WAS happening and it wasn't a 'flaw' or defective unit I had...LG LST3510a...it was either on KET's or TW's side...or both...I would LOVE to know what the issue was...specifically...

Again...THANKYOU William and TW!!!:D :D :D

In case anyone is interested, there is a fairly reliable rumor that NBC Universal is going to buy The Weather Channel. I wonder what this means for 5-2 WeatherPlus...Probably that WeatherPlus will be disbanded, and The Weather Channel SD will get put onto 5-2. I imagine that Local on the 8's will have WLWT meteorologists and radar images, and that a cable subscription would become a requirement for "proper" The Weather Channel HD (with LOT8's updates from WLWT sources).

I got tired of my fm antenna I used on my tv so I went out and spent 54 bucks for a new antenna at radio shack. This is the one I got: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2131034&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032204&parentPage=family

I get a hell of a lot better reseption on channel 19.1 and 19.12 now then I did before Its bettwen 86 and 90 now. Before it would be in the 60 to low 80's never the same every day now it seems to be steady at 87-88.

On 43.1-.5 I am now getting the channel with a signal strength of 54-61. I usally never got it this good with the old fm antenna.

Hi everyone. This is the first time I post. I bought a Vizio 26" HDTV on May 16th (Model VW26L). I am tuning via a regular antenna to view over-the-air transmissions. Since I bought the TV, I have been having problems with the TV freezing up completely (to the point that the only option is to unplug the TV from the outlet) when viewing some HDTV channels. I live in the Cincinnati area (Fort Wright, near Park Hills), and as of now, the problem has happened when viewing channel 19.1, the FOX affiliate, using the antenna. It can happen within a few minutes or up to 30-45 minutes of tuning to the channel.

The person in the help line told me that it would be a signal issue, and that there was nothing that could be done about it. But I don't think a signal can make a TV "crash" this way. When it happened, the signal was not particularly strong, but the digital channel was viewable.

Do you know of this problem occurring with Vizio TV's or other TV's? I'm trying to figure out if it is my set or if it is truly a signal issue. Has anyone had this problem.

The other issue I have is with the ABC feed WCPO. It has lip sync problems, which are specially strong on live, national shows (such as morning shows or sports). Also, it seems that the updating of the image is not as fluid, which turns up as some sort of jitter when panning. You can also see it with scrolling banners at the bottom of the screen. Is this also a known issue or could it be the TV?

My TV is 720p resolution, but other than ABC, other 1080i channels come up great.

I know it was a lengthy post, but I appreciate any insight into this!

Thanks!

This sounds like an issue with your TV. I would push Vizio harder on this. There is no reason that your TV should freeze/lock up like that. If you were just talking about the picture freezing that would be one thing, but it sounds like once this happens you aren't even able to change the channel.

Also, I have not seen any lip sync (or audio/video sync) issues on WCPO-DT, or the jitter you describe. This also sounds like an issue with your TV. I often see lip sync issues on WPTO-DT and WPTD-DT but those are originating at the station.

You might try searching the AVS forum on HDTV Reception Hardware or HDTV Displays to see if you can find anyone with related issues. Either way, this is almost definitely a problem with the TV and you should push Vizio to resolve the problem before it is too late to return the set, and if they are unable to help you, I would return the set and get a different brand.

Thanks for the response... I am curious about the lip sync problems, since you say you have not seen it in the WCPO transmissions... Could antenna signal strength be an issue? I was considering buying an amplified antenna because signal strength was weak on some channels... Could that help with WCPO?

The lip sync problem seems odd to be because it mostly occurs on 9.1 and slightly on 64.1... but if it is the channel signal strength, that could indicate a possible solution.

I will continue asking Vizio anyway.

Thanks for the response... I am curious about the lip sync problems, since you say you have not seen it in the WCPO transmissions... Could antenna signal strength be an issue? I was considering buying an amplified antenna because signal strength was weak on some channels... Could that help with WCPO?

The lip sync problem seems odd to be because it mostly occurs on 9.1 and slightly on 64.1... but if it is the channel signal strength, that could indicate a possible solution.

I will continue asking Vizio anyway.

The amp will over power WCPO I know because i have a amped antenna and I have to leave the amp off or i dont get WCPO or anyother Local Cincy station or KET.

Around 11pm I am getting huge tropo:

102.9 Dayton I believe

91.3

94.5 dayton

96.9 Kiss FM

B105.7 - as if it was a local

Y106 106.1 - as if it was a local

Smooth Jazz 106.5 - as if it was a local

107.9 The track - as if it was a local

107.7 - normal dayton pick up

104.7 - normal pick up

92.1 dayton

95.5 with country

95.3 auto racing

95.7 the rocket

98.9 louisville

Kicks 96.1

97.9 religious - as if it was a local

100.7 indy

G101.3 - as if it was a local

102.3 k-love and on top of it is a country station

WLLC 104.1


TV

59 from Indianapolis - as if it was a local

63.1 -.4 Indianapolis

13 Indianapolis

23.1 Indianapolis

CW 53

Dayton 2.1 and 2.2

11 comming in dont know where its from

rvillalvag,

I have two Vizio sets purchased from Costco. I believe the quality of the signal could throw off the tuners in these sets. If the lockups are not happening on all channels, I would have to believe it is signal related because the lockups are happening at different times and on two channels. Now concerning the lip sync, this would lead me to believe it is the tv as I am seeing no problems on WCPO with lip sync. Because these are digital encoded signals, we are all seeing the same picture.
I would suggest trying a different antenna setup, perhaps keep your antenna and get some extra cable and move it around your yard and see if that fixes your problem.

rvillalvag,

I have two Vizio sets purchased from Costco. I believe the quality of the signal could throw off the tuners in these sets. If the lockups are not happening on all channels, I would have to believe it is signal related because the lockups are happening at different times and on two channels. Now concerning the lip sync, this would lead me to believe it is the tv as I am seeing no problems on WCPO with lip sync. Because these are digital encoded signals, we are all seeing the same picture.
I would suggest trying a different antenna setup, perhaps keep your antenna and get some extra cable and move it around your yard and see if that fixes your problem.
Thanks JunkyardDogg,

It seems as if everything is pointing to the TV tuner... I realized something yesterday, when I watched an F1 race on FOX HD and the NBA finals on ABC HD... Both of these channels showed the jitter I mentioned in my first post (as if the TV skipped frames between updates... kind of like a strobe light effect, though a bit milder). This did not happen when watching the NHL finals on NBC... I realized yesterday that that issue shows up on the 720P channels, but not on the 1080i. That seems odd, since the native resolution of the set is 720P, but that is what happened.

I'm currently debating whether to return the set and get another one of the same model or to shell out an extra $150 to buy a higher end model... Any thoughts? (And by the way, my TV had not been acting up until FOX froze again late last night and I had to unplug the set).

Thanks for helping me sort out this weird problem!

I would exchange the set since you know what to look for now...If the same problem persists then return for a refund...

The pass-through feature of this box is no longer working. A friend has the same box and the same problem. Probably lost after a software upgrade. Time Warner is, as usual, clueless. Any others with this problem? Solution?

I don't have TWC, but people I know who got the software upgrade last week are EXTREMELY unhappy. Very slow, clunky, and just plain crappy.

You are totally correct, Time Warner is just plain clueless.

I picked up that 50'' vizio from costco that has 5.1 dolby digital built in & a wireless sub & rears, 3 HDMI's - COOL!

Hey-Long time no talk...I'm about to move & wondered when the last time any/all have compared the local quality & value of TW vs. DirecTV?(my current fav.)

It's all about HD content for me(still big D* edge, right?) but the new house is cabled for TW already & some of the package deals (with phone & internet) seem attractive...so my D* vs TW comparo questions are:

-Is PQ of HD the same? (this is big for me! -will I still need OTA ant for best PQ-the locals look pretty stellar on SAT now. I know it's compressed but to my eye almost impossible to see a diff)
-Will the HD content of TW catch-up in '09 when new digital laws pass?
-are there other ways to get fast internet & phone with SAT for like price/mo? (HughesNet or ??)...THANKS!

I don't have TWC, but people I know who got the software upgrade last week are EXTREMELY unhappy. Very slow, clunky, and just plain crappy.

You are totally correct, Time Warner is just plain clueless.

I've got it and it's the worst piece of crap I've ever seen.

After having to miss most of the Stanley Cup Playoffs because Time Warner can't be bothered to offer Versus here even though every other TWC system I checked has it, I didn't think they could do anything to make me more dissatisfied. Boy was I wrong.

I have had an external hard drive running on my SA8300 for well over a year. Now after the "upgrade" to Mystro, all of those recordings seem to be gone. The box wants to reformat the external drive. Does anyone know a way to get the box to recognize the disk? Maybe a different sequence of boot up, attach and power up drive?

Six months ago I returned to the Tivo (HD) fold and love my it more than ever after living in un-Scientific Atlanta. The only reason I was keeping the SA box was saved programs and the possibility of SDV coming along before the Tivo dongle was available. If my programs are gone, they can have this $10 a month piece of fugly back.

I hope the suits at TW hit their knees every night and thank their personal god for the monopoly they have been granted. Well, at least RoadRunner isn't too bad, yet... But that's another rant.

Me, I'm looking south and thinking about shopping for a chain saw. If only satellite wasn't as bad in different ways.

The pass-through feature of this box is no longer working. A friend has the same box and the same problem. Probably lost after a software upgrade. Time Warner is, as usual, clueless. Any others with this problem? Solution?

Good to know, I thought it was just my box.

After having to miss most of the Stanley Cup Playoffs because Time Warner can't be bothered to offer Versus here even though every other TWC system I checked has it, I didn't think they could do anything to make me more dissatisfied. Boy was I wrong.

I have had an external hard drive running on my SA8300 for well over a year. Now after the "upgrade" to Mystro, all of those recordings seem to be gone. The box wants to reformat the external drive. Does anyone know a way to get the box to recognize the disk? Maybe a different sequence of boot up, attach and power up drive?

Six months ago I returned to the Tivo (HD) fold and love my it more than ever after living in un-Scientific Atlanta. The only reason I was keeping the SA box was saved programs and the possibility of SDV coming along before the Tivo dongle was available. If my programs are gone, they can have this $10 a month piece of fugly back.

I hope the suits at TW hit their knees every night and thank their personal god for the monopoly they have been granted. Well, at least RoadRunner isn't too bad, yet... But that's another rant.

Me, I'm looking south and thinking about shopping for a chain saw. If only satellite wasn't as bad in different ways.

Well for me the last 3 months of roadrunner has also been crap (Anderson Twp), constant disconnects, cannot download updates etc. Looking at there network status page its been going on since 1/15/08.
Last week I went to Cincinnati Bell for zoomtown, well they came out last Friday to prep my phone line and ended up knocking out my phone service. Now I have to wait till Saturday to get it fixed (I want to be there this time).

For those interested, I ran across this article in Broadcasting and Cable. It's actually from April but it does have local interest since it says that NBC and Hearst-Argyle (owner of WLWT) are teaming up to promote active format descriptor (AFD).

For anyone who doesn't know, AFD can be used to send metadata which tells the receiver how to properly format the video. It is especially useful for digital converter boxes hooked up to 4:3 TV sets. For example, when watching an HD show on 5-1, the video should be letterboxed (black bars on top and bottom of the image), preserving the 16:9 format without cutting off any of the picture or stretching/distorting the image. However, when an SD program or commercial comes on, if the TV is still displaying the letterboxed verion of 5-1, the undesired "windowbox" effect occurs (black bars on all four sides of the image). AFD could be used to tell the converter box to switch to "crop" or "center cut" mode when standard def 4:3 content is being shown, allowing the content to fill the TV screen.

It looks like WLWT will be fully supporting AFD and all new equipment they install will support it as well.

I have yet to see any AFD data being sent by local stations at this point. I have also not been able to find out what to look for in TSReader to see what that data might look like.

Because AFD is not prevalent at this time, networks are mostly gearing up toward being 4:3 safe for everything, since most standard def TV owners will be watching center cut video. You may have noticed that the NBC and CBS logo bugs have been moved into the 4:3 safe area within the last month.

NAB 2008: NBCU Tackles Digital Downconversion
Teams Up with Tribune, Hearst-Argyle on Format-Description Technology
By Glen Dickson -- Broadcasting & Cable, 4/15/2008 5:22:00 PM

Las Vegas -- NBC Universal is making moves now to ensure that its television programming continues to reach standard-definition cable and satellite viewers in the proper format after high-powered analog broadcasts cease in 2009 and cable and satellite operators will start carrying a downconverted version of the network’s HDTV signal to support viewers with analog sets.

NBCU teamed up with stations groups Hearst-Argyle Television and Tribune to promote the use of Active Format Descriptor technology, which will ensure that cable-headend equipment and set-top boxes display the downconverted signal in the aspect ratio that producers originally intended.

Without the proper use of AFD information, viewers could see postage-stamp-sized pictures on their 4:3 sets or suffer from graphics designed for wide-screen pictures being cut off during 4:3 display, NBC executives said.

AFD technology is being demonstrated by several broadcast vendors at the show, but NBCU, Hearst-Argyle and Tribune formed the “AFD Ready” initiative to increase awareness of the technology and to promote its use throughout the entire television industry. NBCU executives highlighted its importance in a press briefing at the 2008 NAB Show here that outlined the remaining challenges -- and opportunities -- of the digital-television transition.

“We’re trying to get AFD in the entire chain, included our promotion and production partners,” said John Eck, president of the NBC TV Network and Media Works. “We’re protecting the consumer, who may not be aware that they’re only seeing part of the picture.”

As a practical basis, the effort may have more benefit to NBC’s affiliates than its owned-and-operated NBC and Telemundo stations. Like ABC, NBC plans to use fiber-optic links to continue to deliver its own downconverted, 4:3 standard-definition version of the HDTV feed from its owned stations to cable operators in their markets after the Feb. 17, 2009, analog turnoff.

But affiliates may choose to simply broadcast a single HDTV signal, which cable and satellite operators will have to downconvert, either through headend equipment or HD set-top boxes, to enable analog TV sets to display the picture. Cable operators have to do so through 2012 in order to comply with the Federal Communications Commission’s digital must-carry rules.

That is where the AFD information becomes important, particularly for protecting graphics, logos and bugs in both programming and commercials. Eck gave the example of a recent HD commercial for Nike that displayed the truncated tag line, “ust do it,” when shown on a 4:3 set.

Complying with AFD information will be relatively inexpensive for cable operators, according to Ian Trombley, executive vice president of media-distribution services for NBC Media Works, who said the hurdle is more awareness than capital investment.

“We need to make sure the IRDs [integrated receiver/decoders] are AFD-ready,” he added. “We want to make sure we get the industry rallied behind this.”

More than 20 companies are supporting the initiative, NBCU said, and an AFD demonstration is available in the DTV Hot Spot in the South Hall of the Las Vegas Convention Center.

The involvement of Tribune and Hearst-Argyle in the AFD initiative is not surprising, as engineers from both station groups have been vocal over the past year about the need for AFD support.

“We want to work with our cable and satellite partners to ensure that SD legacy customers have the best possible viewing experience after the DTV transition,” Tribune Broadcasting chief technology officer Ira Goldstone said in a statement. “Without an AFD standard, broadcasters are forced to choose between downconversion formats that compromise on graphics placement and shot composition or that result in undesirable black bars within the display. Tribune supports the rapid development of AFD-ready integrated receiver-decoders and set-top boxes to optimize the viewing experience for everyone.”

My only experience with HD programming had, until the last two weeks, been with OTA on my Sony W-series (1080p) TV. I never considered myself a "videophile" enough to notice PQ differences, but I thought my PQ was pretty great.

Two weeks ago, my parents purchased their first HDTV - a Sony "V" series (one "below" mine). I went over to set it up for them. At first, they plugged in their standard TW cable, and I showed them QAM programming. The PQ, compared to my OTA, was noticeably worse. I don't know if it was the QAM or the TV model, or both, but it was clearly worse (of course, they were pleased as can be, and that's what really matters!). Then last week, they ordered TW's HD package, and I had to hook that up (since Mom went to the actual store and picked up the STB instead of calling and having it set up for them). Even with the HD package, it's still bad, IMO. Noticeably worse than my TV with OTA.

Does this have much to do with anything here? Maybe not (since it could be the TV more than anything). But for those wondering about the PQ differences in various services, I now am a believer that the documented PQ difference between cable and OTA is, in fact, noticeable to a non-videophile like me. :p

(Funny aside that is typical of "older" parents: when I first got to my parent's house to hook up their new TV, they had already plugged it in, attached the cable, and put it on a "temporary" table in front of their entertainment center. The default settings had it in analog (so the cable did work) and "auto wide". So not only were they watching analog cable from waaaaay too close to the set (which really shows the flaws in LCD), but they had the 4:3 picture "stretched", via the auto-wide function, to be 16:9. And they thought they had found the QAM HD channels, since it was 16:9! Needless to say, they probably are candidates for the "people who really should not have spent the extra money to get an HD television" list! :D :rolleyes:)

Me, I'm looking south and thinking about shopping for a chain saw. If only satellite wasn't as bad in different ways.
Just curious, what ways do you consider satellite bad? I was a very happy DirecTV customer before making the choice to drop all service and go OTA-only.

You should see NO noticeable difference in PQ between the OTA networks and the SAME programming on cable HD...Cable does absolutely nothing to the quality...bitrate...over and above what they are receiving...Any perceived differences in PQ can only be attributed to the settings and type of TV itself...I take for granted you are absolutely positive that you are watching QAM and not analog...

Now as for the 'other' HD channels from the STB...it is likely you have noticed the PQ being not as good as the local networks because those channels ARE being manipulated at the headend...generally to the absolute minimum level...in order to fit all HD programming in the alotted channel locations...

Just 'discovered' that on the TW Amelia system...that Think16 and all its subchannels have now been added to the 'free' QAM channel lineup!!!:D

My only experience with HD programming had, until the last two weeks, been with OTA on my Sony W-series (1080p) TV. I never considered myself a "videophile" enough to notice PQ differences, but I thought my PQ was pretty great.

Two weeks ago, my parents purchased their first HDTV - a Sony "V" series (one "below" mine). I went over to set it up for them. At first, they plugged in their standard TW cable, and I showed them QAM programming. The PQ, compared to my OTA, was noticeably worse. I don't know if it was the QAM or the TV model, or both, but it was clearly worse (of course, they were pleased as can be, and that's what really matters!). Then last week, they ordered TW's HD package, and I had to hook that up (since Mom went to the actual store and picked up the STB instead of calling and having it set up for them). Even with the HD package, it's still bad, IMO. Noticeably worse than my TV with OTA.

Does this have much to do with anything here? Maybe not (since it could be the TV more than anything). But for those wondering about the PQ differences in various services, I now am a believer that the documented PQ difference between cable and OTA is, in fact, noticeable to a non-videophile like me. :pWhen you say worse, what exactly do you mean? Was it related to things like colors, contrast, etc. or were you seeing digital artifacting or macroblocking?

When you say worse, what exactly do you mean? Was it related to things like colors, contrast, etc. or were you seeing digital artifacting or macroblocking?

All of the above. I think it was part TV and part cable quality. Perhaps more the TV quality... though I have never seen a Sony look that bad before.

Sounds like you should be in a strong signal area for Both Dayton+Cincinnati, but just in case, you might want to check out (and/or post your plots so we can see what you're dealing with as well) the www.tvfool.com plots for your location to make sure -- It's much better/much more accurate for signal predictions than antennaweb, and for example it even has WPTO-DT's transmitter in the correct location (Antennaweb does not, or at least didn't last I looked) ...

TVFool plot attached. it seems like I have a very strong signal with no issues from the Cincinnati channels, but of course the Dayton channels are significantly in antoher direction.

But, assuming there are no significant terrain issues ----(could still be higher hills or higher "flat ground" to your north which could cause problems for Dayton, for example - tvfool would tell us this) ---- Yep, many good options that would probably work well, one of those winegard antennas you mention on the roof for Cincinnati DTV/TV/FM seem like good choices to me, with rotor for Dayton and/or WKOI. I think one of those may be what TNT Pictures usually installs, and may be what jimp2244 is using from near Sharonville with good results (with rotor for Dayton+Cincinnati) ....

Winegard and Channel master seems to be very high quality and while open to other suggestions, I'm leaning staying with those brands just to narrow my focus and make some progress on this. With the weather getting very warm, I don't want to wait any longer to get in the attic and install this. Yes, I'm going to try an attic install first and see how it goes. The signnal strenght on the plot seems good enough from what I've read and I can do all the work myself to keep costs down and have a sense of accomplishment esp. since I did all of the pre-wiring 5 years ago myself.

I wish Winegard would put a polar plot in their spec sheet for their antennas patterns for mid-FM band though ... I currently use a Winegard PR5030 (ch 2~13+FM) for VHF/FM, and also at one time was using a much larger Winegard CH-5100 (broadband VHF antenna - long discontinued) for FM/VHF. And I have noticed that it seems both of those antennas seem to have more gain on mid-FM band frequencies(especially right around 98 MHZ) off the BACK side of the antenna rather than the front ... But, for channel 6 and at low and hi-end of FM band, it performs as you'd expect ....

Any point to going with a omni-directional to pick up all fo Cincinnati and Dayton? I guess I'd give up FM, but I can put up a seperate FM antenna for that. Since my primary use is to have a backup to DirecTV when the rain fade is strong (storms) as well as to grab that beautiful OTA picture when I can, I'm still struggling to see if the extra cost/complexity for trying to tune in Dayton is really worht it. I looked at the channel charts and websites and I don't see enough differnt content or quality to bother. Sell me guys, one last chance! lol



Can't really think of anything to recommend which would be likely to provide good reception for Dayton+Cincinnati TV/DTV (and cincinnati FM) without the use of a rotor or seperate antennas on seperate feedlines with A/B switch before receiver(s) to switch between them .... Either of those choices would likely be your best options for Dayton+Cincinnati ....

It's possible you might have some sort of luck receiving both Dayton+Cincinnati, receiving either Dayton or Cincinnati off the "back side* of an antenna such as Winegard 7010/7014, but I'd guess the chances probably aren't all that good you'll get reliable reception of stations received off the back side of it .... Also, WSTR is several miles North of the other cincinnati stations, which means you might have to aim your antenna "in between" WSTR and the other Cincinnati stations for best results, which would have the back side of your antenna probably not aimed near Dayton ....

If you didn't want to use antenna for FM however, I suppose you could try a UHF 2 or 4 bay bowtie (CM4221, DB4, etc - 8 bay might be a little "too-directional" for your circumstances), and try removing the reflector screen, which should pretty much make these antennas bi-directional and might give you a bit of a shot of receiving both Cincinnati+Dayton with good results with same antenna (that would have the best shot of working if Cincinnati+Dayton stations were about 180 degrees apart from receive location) ... But, it would also reduce it's performance on Hi-VHF band (ch 7~13), what little "performance" those antennas have on Hi-VHF, thus you might need to add a seperate hi-VHF antenna aimed at Cincinnati for WCPO-DT reception (And for WKRC-DT reception post transition) .....

I am focusing on the Feb 2009 channel config when picking an antenna.

Another option might be a "smartenna", but the receiver has to have the interface for it(I don't know if your receiver does or not), and the smartennas they have I don't think will work well for FM ... Of course, with smartenna, the receiver with smartenna interface controls/adjusts the antenna for best results on any given station, so you probably wouldn't want to use it for multiple receivers/TV's where you might want to watch different channels/stations, simultanously ....

Back in the 70's, (can't remember the manufactuer), you used to be able to get a antenna setup called a "Cincinnati/Dayton" special ... This consisted of two antennas, which you spaced about 3~5 feet apart on mast and you hooked them together on the same feedline .... One antenna was specifically designed for reception of Cincinati stations on the air at the time, the other for Dayton .... The antennas were designed specifically to be used in this manner, and the elements were cut specifically for the channels/frequencies those stations were broadcasting on. It only worked really well to receive those specific stations(which are still of course on the air until 2/17/09 --- They were for - 2,7,16,22 Dayton, 5,9,12,19,48 (maybe 54 I don't recall)Cincinnati, I don't think WPTO was included in the design because of their different/Oxford transmit location .... You'll still see these in use or on some rooftops even nowadays .... But of course, that sort of thing doesn't work very well when new stations come on air, or when stations move around on the dial, and wouldn't work very well for digital nowadays which transmit on different channels(most will be post-transition as well) than those, or for the many other stations (LP stations, WRGT, WBDT, WKOI, WSTR) that have came on air since the 70's ...



Yes, that should work fine+also allows you to put a FM trap in line before the HDTV/AM21 if needed but not the FM receiver. If they still make them, another option is to use a Winegard CA-8800 FM/TV band(VHF+UHF) seperator instead of a splitter - You lose a bit less signal with one of those vs. a 2 way splitter ...

On the feed from my "main" VHF/FM antenna, I use a CA-8800 before my VHF preamp+Traps, with "FM" out going to FM receivers and "TV" out going to FM traps/channel traps I use to knock down Dayton analog 2+7 before an amp, then to VHF/UHF combining with CM0549 before distribution to various devices in various rooms ... Oh, BTW, I use a seperate UHF antenna -- AntennadirectXG91 - These "main" UHF and VHF/FM antennas also are used with a rotor, and I also use yet another seperate antenna setup on seperate feedline(with A/B switches before receivers/devices) for Dayton reception ...

Fully Explaining the details regarding how I handle the amplification for the different antennas +distribution would probably get more lengthly than you'd like to hear, so I'll leave out those details. But, it certianly works VERY nicely, even for reception of the LP analog stations in the area, and currently for reception of WAVE 3 Louisville, WCMH 4 Columbus+ usually WRTV 6 Indy -- I Like watching their local newscasts occasionally -- will lose them on a "Regular" basis post-transition though, as for various reasons I can only acheive lo-VHF reception regularly at those distances given the distance/curvature of earth+terrain issues involved at my receive location - It of course Helps WAVE 3 has a 2000 foot tower ....) ...

But, In short, I have something like 15 or so different devices hooked up to the antennas in 4 different rooms - Some devices/receivers do get more "signal" than others on which I don't necessarily need good reception of, for example, the LP stations .... Also, I Only have the feed from Dayton UHF antenna+the Main/Cincinnati VHF PR5030(Mainly So I can get WCPO-DT, and in the future WKRC-DT on the HDTV in bedroom along with the Dayton stations) going into two rooms, the other two rooms get feeds from both antennas+have A/B switches before receivers to switch between them .....



Probably a good idea, I'll leave it to others to make specific suggestions for make/models of amps you might want to look at ....

But, Do note This is where you might get into some trouble with "overload" issues ... Particurarly perhaps regarding the Strong FM signals in the area which can cause problems for TV as well if the amp/front end of Receiver becomes overloaded with these strong signals to the point IMD is created(intermodulation distortion occurs), which I'm pretty sure will happen with an amp but w/o a FM trap in line before it .....

Sorry for being a bit repetitive here --- but, You probably don't want to get an amp with too much gain(as some of the signals, especially the Cincinnati stations will probably be VERY strong and could easily overload your receiver's front end) ---and, you'll probably want to have a FM trap before, or in the amp (many Amps have built-in switchable FM traps) for the distribution to the TV's/DTV receivers/etc --- But, OTOH you don't want the FM trap (or a amp either, probably) in line before the FM receiver(s) you're going to hook up to the antenna. And you probably won't want an amp before the FM receivers either, unless you're going to be feeding MANY FM receivers with the signal - In which case, you still probably don't want something with a lot of gain for an FM amp(which will probably need to be a seperate amp for what you're using for the TV's), given how strong many FM signals will be at your location -- FM receivers typically have very good sensitivity and can very easily be "overload " ...

My plan right now would be to not use a pre-amp given the signal strenght I've seen on tvfool and use a CM 3045 distribution amp to serve up the OTA signal to up to about 6 locations in the house. Given the amount of RG6 I've home run, I could also run a second connection to my receiver with out sending it via the distribution amp. I guess I can just play around and see how it goes. Are signal strength meters expensive and useful to help with amp overload?

So, you'd probably want a splitter or (even better CA-8800 TV/FM band seperator) before the amp (s) ... usually, when possible we want to keep coax between antenna+amp fairly short, and we would usually not want to split the signal (that will cause about 4~5db of loss - In comparision, RG6 looses about 6~8db or so per 100FT at high UHF frequencies) before the amp, but in this case you're probably going to have to use either a splitter, or CA-8800 TV/FM seperator(don't have the specs handy, but IF I recall correctly, will only cause about .5~1dB loss) before the amp so you don't end up with a FM trap in line before the FM receiver(s) ....



Several have reported good results using TNT pictures (search this thread for them for more info) .... You might want to PM Splicer010 as well, he indicated in a recent post that he is doing OTA antenna installs ....

BTW, IF I recall correctly, I think TNT uses the Winegard Prostar(7010/7014 or 7015) antennas for their installs, or at least I think they did at one time ....

Given we won't have any Lo-VHF stations post-transition, and there are none now for Digital/HD in Dayton Or Cincinnati (unless some "new" ones come on air) --- Just a thought, but you might also want to think about seperate antennas for TV+FM ... Winegard + antennacraft have a couple of new antenna models specifically designed for TV Ch 7~69 reception ..... The "long" elements at the back of VHF/UHF/FM combos which makes up the 'biggest part" of these types of antennas are mainly for Lo-VHF (54~88MHZ - ch 2-6) reception ....



Most definitely My antenna masts/tower(and self-installed E* dish), and Coax runs(ground blocks) are properly(reasonably properly anyway) grounded and bonded to the Main A/C service ground .... For me, Since my tower/Antennas, dish and phone(underground) line are on opposite side of house from the A/C service ground (partly for safety reasons!) --- there is seperate ground rod for Phone line, and I have seperate ground rod(s) for the Dish (and tower legs - although they are probably pretty much already grounded fairly well as is), and have buried #4 copper wire that takes shortest route around house to bond the grounds from Phone line, sat dish, antenna mast, coax runs to the A/C service ground ... Not necessarily the most Ideal situation,(as ideally the main A/C service ground and Antennas/dish would be on same side of house) but necessary for safety reasons to have them on the other side of house from where the utility lines are, and preferred for aesthetic reasons as well .....

I have a CM3010 "stealthtenna"(and it's internal CM3038 preamp) Laying in attic I use on my Dayton Antenna setup, but ONLY currently for analog VHF channel 2+7 reception on a couple of TV's and for FM reception on one FM receiver ..... It's combined in the attic with VHF/UHF combiner with the feed from a 25 Element UHF yagi I use for Dayton UHF(All Dayton digitals are UHF, btw, and will be post-transition as well) which is outdoors, side mounted to tower .... My "main" antenna setup I use for Cincinnati, and For FM on a couple of receivers and for Dx'ing/etc is obviously outdoors "on top" of the tower as well ....

I have done some experimenting, and really, for my specific circumstances, as it turns out attic antennas just don't work very well, even though the roof is just shingles and wood .... For indoor reception, a small, simple antenna(such as "rabbit ears" for VHF+ a folded dipole or loop for UHF) in a 2nd story window facing the towers (South for Cincinnati/East for Dayton) works much better than any antenna in the attic ....

YMMV though, many folks have reported good results with attic antenna setups, especially probably in strong signal areas ... However, even in strong signal areas Multipath+issues with the antenna becoming "coupled" to nearby objects(anything near antenna becomes connected to it) can be a real pain with messing around with positioning/placing antennas and finding that "sweet spot" to put the antenna ....

Probably more than you wanted to know, but there's some thoughts, in case they are of any use

I don’t have much to add to Jeff’s comments above, but I’m curious why you would want Cincinnati OTA when you said you have HD DirecTV… you would already have the Cincinnati locals in HD through that. FM reception, Dayton reception, sure... But why Cincinnati OTA when it’s included with DirecTV? Just curious.

I have a homemade “unreflected DB4/4221-type” antenna in my attic, which is about 25’ off the ground (though I am near the top of a hill too). This would be about the same as Jeff’s suggestion to buy an antenna of this type and remove the reflector screen (at least, I like to think my workmanship is equal to the commercial version. ;) ). I am in Evendale and I can get all of the Cincinnati stations (including WCPO, even though the antenna isn’t supposed to get VHF), locked in the 90s and even 100%, Dayton CBS and Fox between 80 and 95%, and Dayton NBC, ABC, and PBS around 70-75%. Because it’s not reflected, I also pick up WKOI and WSTR in the 90s, even though they’re off to the side. I can not get Dayton CW though – I think I would need a directional, reflected antenna (and probably outdoors) to get it… but of course, you are closer to Dayton and in a better geographic location than I am, being in Loveland. You can read mine and Jeff’s discourse on homemade vs. store-bought antennas and results a few pages back in this thread, but if you are a handy DIY type and have some spare Romex and a balun, screws, washers, and a piece of 1x4 or 2x4 laying around, you could make one for free and try it without the hassle of buying, disassembling, installing, and potentially having to reassemble and return. I’ve enjoyed the “tinkering”, experimental aspect of making my own.

Good luck!

Mainly for the backup when the DireTV signal fades in the bad weather, plus I have a few locations where I'd like to put a simple TV and don't want to pay for another DirectV sat receiver (master bath, just like to have locals and weather). And, I love the OTA locals for picture quality, etc.