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fgrogan

06-12-08, 05:17 PM

I haven't seen D*'s HD LiL quality, but if they do it right, reencoding from MPEG2 sources to using AVC/H.264 (MPEG4) for better efficiency vs. MPEG2 at "ATSC" bitrates (which is what the stations encode with, and is what is sent OTA and usually to cableco's and DBS, often these days IMO with too high compression ratio to "Fit in" more multicasting of SD "subchannels"/etc - which especially "shows up" during bandwidth demanding/difficult to encode portions of content content) certianly can work very well without reducing PQ in any sort of noticable fashion ... It certianly really can't end up being higher quality than what the stations are sending them from their MPEG2 encoders, however ....

yeah, and to expand on that a bit :

I think D* only carries Cincinnati ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox Digital/HD services currently via HD LiL if you're in Cincinnati DMA, and they offer none of the multicast SD services the stations offer OTA ...

There's a thread somewhere that says they are planning on PBS HD carriage, but I'd guess probably only one station, which I'd guess probably would be WCET-DT. Which I think has the least amount of PBS HD/Widescreen programming currently of the 4 PBS member stations in Dayton/Cincinnati ...

Can't really imagine why most folks, even those with cable/satellite wouldn't want to use OTA in this area. Given the Different HD programming schedules (currently at least) from all 4 Cincinnati/Dayton PBS HD affiliates, MyTV HD from Cincinnati, CW HD from Dayton, and numerious digital SD multicast services offered by Cincinnati/Dayton DTV stations + add any Analog LP's that aren't carried by the provider ... And, also the sometimes different Network HD programming from the Dayton affiliates -- Such as different sports/games sometimes, and sometimes Dayton stations will carry Network HD when the Cincinnati station has "billy graham" or other programming - For example, I notice WCPO often airs different local or syndicated programming on Friday or Saturday nights when WKEF-DT has ABC HD programming .. Then, there are times when Cincy or Dayton affilate breaks into programming for emergency info (severe weather/etc), or in some cases drops from HD to insert local graphics or school closings info, or distorts the Pictures to "squeeze in" various local graphics .... Sometimes it happens when affilates in both markets do that, but oftentimes it's only one or the other ...

In other words, unless all you care about is having a single source for HD from ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox (and don't care about getting such things as some different NFL HD games from Dayton affiliates), and the local/syndicated programming the Cincinnati ABC/CBS/NBC Fox affiliates offer .... In this area at least, There are LOTS of good reasons to justify say, getting an antenna with rotor installed on the roof and using OTA for ifyou're also getting HD LiL from D*, or really for that matter in most cases if you are using cable, or if you're SD only and getting LiL from E* or D* ....

Yeah, that too!! :)

fgrogan

06-12-08, 05:19 PM

Thanks for the shout out there Jeff :D ...Yes he PM'd me and I am just waiting his reply...

As to why he would want Cinti channels...I pressume he would get a much better PQ since OTA is not compressed at all and he would receive the full bandwidth that is dedictaed to each and every channel...The bonus would be additional NKY and Dayton stations and with the proper antenna...possibly other markets as well...Then he could dump Direc and save a small fortune...

Splicer, thank you very much for the offer. Right now I am going to try this myself, but I will definatly call you if I have problems and want to have someone else do the work.

fgrogan

06-12-08, 05:23 PM

Sounds like you should be in a strong signal area for Both Dayton+Cincinnati, but just in case, you might want to check out (and/or post your plots so we can see what you're dealing with as well) the www.tvfool.com plots for your location to make sure -- It's much better/much more accurate for signal predictions than antennaweb, and for example it even has WPTO-DT's transmitter in the correct location (Antennaweb does not, or at least didn't last I looked) ...

But, assuming there are no significant terrain issues ----(could still be higher hills or higher "flat ground" to your north which could cause problems for Dayton, for example - tvfool would tell us this) ---- Yep, many good options that would probably work well, one of those winegard antennas you mention on the roof for Cincinnati DTV/TV/FM seem like good choices to me, with rotor for Dayton and/or WKOI. I think one of those may be what TNT Pictures usually installs, and may be what jimp2244 is using from near Sharonville with good results (with rotor for Dayton+Cincinnati) ....

I wish Winegard would put a polar plot in their spec sheet for their antennas patterns for mid-FM band though ... I currently use a Winegard PR5030 (ch 2~13+FM) for VHF/FM, and also at one time was using a much larger Winegard CH-5100 (broadband VHF antenna - long discontinued) for FM/VHF. And I have noticed that it seems both of those antennas seem to have more gain on mid-FM band frequencies(especially right around 98 MHZ) off the BACK side of the antenna rather than the front ... But, for channel 6 and at low and hi-end of FM band, it performs as you'd expect ....

Can't really think of anything to recommend which would be likely to provide good reception for Dayton+Cincinnati TV/DTV (and cincinnati FM) without the use of a rotor or seperate antennas on seperate feedlines with A/B switch before receiver(s) to switch between them .... Either of those choices would likely be your best options for Dayton+Cincinnati ....

It's possible you might have some sort of luck receiving both Dayton+Cincinnati, receiving either Dayton or Cincinnati off the "back side* of an antenna such as Winegard 7010/7014, but I'd guess the chances probably aren't all that good you'll get reliable reception of stations received off the back side of it .... Also, WSTR is several miles North of the other cincinnati stations, which means you might have to aim your antenna "in between" WSTR and the other Cincinnati stations for best results, which would have the back side of your antenna probably not aimed near Dayton ....

If you didn't want to use antenna for FM however, I suppose you could try a UHF 2 or 4 bay bowtie (CM4221, DB4, etc - 8 bay might be a little "too-directional" for your circumstances), and try removing the reflector screen, which should pretty much make these antennas bi-directional and might give you a bit of a shot of receiving both Cincinnati+Dayton with good results with same antenna (that would have the best shot of working if Cincinnati+Dayton stations were about 180 degrees apart from receive location) ... But, it would also reduce it's performance on Hi-VHF band (ch 7~13), what little "performance" those antennas have on Hi-VHF, thus you might need to add a seperate hi-VHF antenna aimed at Cincinnati for WCPO-DT reception (And for WKRC-DT reception post transition) .....

Another option might be a "smartenna", but the receiver has to have the interface for it(I don't know if your receiver does or not), and the smartennas they have I don't think will work well for FM ... Of course, with smartenna, the receiver with smartenna interface controls/adjusts the antenna for best results on any given station, so you probably wouldn't want to use it for multiple receivers/TV's where you might want to watch different channels/stations, simultanously ....

Back in the 70's, (can't remember the manufactuer), you used to be able to get a antenna setup called a "Cincinnati/Dayton" special ... This consisted of two antennas, which you spaced about 3~5 feet apart on mast and you hooked them together on the same feedline .... One antenna was specifically designed for reception of Cincinati stations on the air at the time, the other for Dayton .... The antennas were designed specifically to be used in this manner, and the elements were cut specifically for the channels/frequencies those stations were broadcasting on. It only worked really well to receive those specific stations(which are still of course on the air until 2/17/09 --- They were for - 2,7,16,22 Dayton, 5,9,12,19,48 (maybe 54 I don't recall)Cincinnati, I don't think WPTO was included in the design because of their different/Oxford transmit location .... You'll still see these in use or on some rooftops even nowadays .... But of course, that sort of thing doesn't work very well when new stations come on air, or when stations move around on the dial, and wouldn't work very well for digital nowadays which transmit on different channels(most will be post-transition as well) than those, or for the many other stations (LP stations, WRGT, WBDT, WKOI, WSTR) that have came on air since the 70's ...

Yes, that should work fine+also allows you to put a FM trap in line before the HDTV/AM21 if needed but not the FM receiver. If they still make them, another option is to use a Winegard CA-8800 FM/TV band(VHF+UHF) seperator instead of a splitter - You lose a bit less signal with one of those vs. a 2 way splitter ...

On the feed from my "main" VHF/FM antenna, I use a CA-8800 before my VHF preamp+Traps, with "FM" out going to FM receivers and "TV" out going to FM traps/channel traps I use to knock down Dayton analog 2+7 before an amp, then to VHF/UHF combining with CM0549 before distribution to various devices in various rooms ... Oh, BTW, I use a seperate UHF antenna -- AntennadirectXG91 - These "main" UHF and VHF/FM antennas also are used with a rotor, and I also use yet another seperate antenna setup on seperate feedline(with A/B switches before receivers/devices) for Dayton reception ...

Fully Explaining the details regarding how I handle the amplification for the different antennas +distribution would probably get more lengthly than you'd like to hear, so I'll leave out those details. But, it certianly works VERY nicely, even for reception of the LP analog stations in the area, and currently for reception of WAVE 3 Louisville, WCMH 4 Columbus+ usually WRTV 6 Indy -- I Like watching their local newscasts occasionally -- will lose them on a "Regular" basis post-transition though, as for various reasons I can only acheive lo-VHF reception regularly at those distances given the distance/curvature of earth+terrain issues involved at my receive location - It of course Helps WAVE 3 has a 2000 foot tower ....) ...

But, In short, I have something like 15 or so different devices hooked up to the antennas in 4 different rooms - Some devices/receivers do get more "signal" than others on which I don't necessarily need good reception of, for example, the LP stations .... Also, I Only have the feed from Dayton UHF antenna+the Main/Cincinnati VHF PR5030(Mainly So I can get WCPO-DT, and in the future WKRC-DT on the HDTV in bedroom along with the Dayton stations) going into two rooms, the other two rooms get feeds from both antennas+have A/B switches before receivers to switch between them .....

Probably a good idea, I'll leave it to others to make specific suggestions for make/models of amps you might want to look at ....

But, Do note This is where you might get into some trouble with "overload" issues ... Particurarly perhaps regarding the Strong FM signals in the area which can cause problems for TV as well if the amp/front end of Receiver becomes overloaded with these strong signals to the point IMD is created(intermodulation distortion occurs), which I'm pretty sure will happen with an amp but w/o a FM trap in line before it .....

Sorry for being a bit repetitive here --- but, You probably don't want to get an amp with too much gain(as some of the signals, especially the Cincinnati stations will probably be VERY strong and could easily overload your receiver's front end) ---and, you'll probably want to have a FM trap before, or in the amp (many Amps have built-in switchable FM traps) for the distribution to the TV's/DTV receivers/etc --- But, OTOH you don't want the FM trap (or a amp either, probably) in line before the FM receiver(s) you're going to hook up to the antenna. And you probably won't want an amp before the FM receivers either, unless you're going to be feeding MANY FM receivers with the signal - In which case, you still probably don't want something with a lot of gain for an FM amp(which will probably need to be a seperate amp for what you're using for the TV's), given how strong many FM signals will be at your location -- FM receivers typically have very good sensitivity and can very easily be "overload " ...

So, you'd probably want a splitter or (even better CA-8800 TV/FM band seperator) before the amp (s) ... usually, when possible we want to keep coax between antenna+amp fairly short, and we would usually not want to split the signal (that will cause about 4~5db of loss - In comparision, RG6 looses about 6~8db or so per 100FT at high UHF frequencies) before the amp, but in this case you're probably going to have to use either a splitter, or CA-8800 TV/FM seperator(don't have the specs handy, but IF I recall correctly, will only cause about .5~1dB loss) before the amp so you don't end up with a FM trap in line before the FM receiver(s) ....

Several have reported good results using TNT pictures (search this thread for them for more info) .... You might want to PM Splicer010 as well, he indicated in a recent post that he is doing OTA antenna installs ....

BTW, IF I recall correctly, I think TNT uses the Winegard Prostar(7010/7014 or 7015) antennas for their installs, or at least I think they did at one time ....

Given we won't have any Lo-VHF stations post-transition, and there are none now for Digital/HD in Dayton Or Cincinnati (unless some "new" ones come on air) --- Just a thought, but you might also want to think about seperate antennas for TV+FM ... Winegard + antennacraft have a couple of new antenna models specifically designed for TV Ch 7~69 reception ..... The "long" elements at the back of VHF/UHF/FM combos which makes up the 'biggest part" of these types of antennas are mainly for Lo-VHF (54~88MHZ - ch 2-6) reception ....

Most definitely My antenna masts/tower(and self-installed E* dish), and Coax runs(ground blocks) are properly(reasonably properly anyway) grounded and bonded to the Main A/C service ground .... For me, Since my tower/Antennas, dish and phone(underground) line are on opposite side of house from the A/C service ground (partly for safety reasons!) --- there is seperate ground rod for Phone line, and I have seperate ground rod(s) for the Dish (and tower legs - although they are probably pretty much already grounded fairly well as is), and have buried #4 copper wire that takes shortest route around house to bond the grounds from Phone line, sat dish, antenna mast, coax runs to the A/C service ground ... Not necessarily the most Ideal situation,(as ideally the main A/C service ground and Antennas/dish would be on same side of house) but necessary for safety reasons to have them on the other side of house from where the utility lines are, and preferred for aesthetic reasons as well .....

I have a CM3010 "stealthtenna"(and it's internal CM3038 preamp) Laying in attic I use on my Dayton Antenna setup, but ONLY currently for analog VHF channel 2+7 reception on a couple of TV's and for FM reception on one FM receiver ..... It's combined in the attic with VHF/UHF combiner with the feed from a 25 Element UHF yagi I use for Dayton UHF(All Dayton digitals are UHF, btw, and will be post-transition as well) which is outdoors, side mounted to tower .... My "main" antenna setup I use for Cincinnati, and For FM on a couple of receivers and for Dx'ing/etc is obviously outdoors "on top" of the tower as well ....

I have done some experimenting, and really, for my specific circumstances, as it turns out attic antennas just don't work very well, even though the roof is just shingles and wood .... For indoor reception, a small, simple antenna(such as "rabbit ears" for VHF+ a folded dipole or loop for UHF) in a 2nd story window facing the towers (South for Cincinnati/East for Dayton) works much better than any antenna in the attic ....

YMMV though, many folks have reported good results with attic antenna setups, especially probably in strong signal areas ... However, even in strong signal areas Multipath+issues with the antenna becoming "coupled" to nearby objects(anything near antenna becomes connected to it) can be a real pain with messing around with positioning/placing antennas and finding that "sweet spot" to put the antenna ....

Probably more than you wanted to know, but there's some thoughts, in case they are of any use ...

Nightwatchman (and others), thank you very much for your detailed reply. I messed up the quote on my first reply. I have had a few family related distractions and now i'm focused on getting all the right config selected, ordered and installed. I ordered a AM21 from Directv today and I want to order the antenna in the next day or so too. I saw the weather for next week and it should only be in the 70's so the attic should not be too bad vs. the mid 90s this week.

Nitewatchman

06-12-08, 07:32 PM

Any point to going with a omni-directional to pick up all fo Cincinnati and Dayton?

Omni's usually aren't a good idea because of issues such as multipath, and especially indoors/in an attic.

With the weather getting very warm, I don't want to wait any longer to get in the attic and install this. Yes, I'm going to try an attic install first and see how it goes. The signnal strenght on the plot seems good enough

Yeah, the way TVfool "predicts" the Signal strengths, for DTV you may have a good shot at reception from indoors for anything above ~ -90dbm or so, which is everything in Dayton/Cincinnati according to your plot ....

Just keep in mind a good rule of thumb/ conservative estimate of having the antenna indoors(including in attic) vs. outdoors = about -20db attenuation .... (of course, no current broadband TV antenna has 20db gain - hence why in general it really doesn't make a lot of sense to put an antenna indoors) And that's only ONE issue that can be problematic for indoor/attic antenna installations ... Attics are usually multipath nightmares, and of course, anything near the antenna becomes coupled to it and effects it's performance (a good rule of thumb is to keep antenna about 10 wavelengths away from anything on lowest frequency your using in direction antenna is aimed .... ) ...

What that boils down to is, in your case moving antenna a little this way or that in the attic can make a big difference regarding whether or not you'll get good reception of any given station .... And, you may need to revisit the attic again when conditions (leaves fall off trees/etc) change ....

all That being said, fortunetly TV/DTV transmissions are very high power, therefore indoor antennas can work well for a lot of folks ...

I'm still struggling to see if the extra cost/complexity for trying to tune in Dayton is really worht it. I looked at the channel charts and websites and I don't see enough differnt content or quality to bother. Sell me guys, one last chance! lol

It may not be all that "complex", I'd start with one antenna setup first, and see what you get, including temporarily "aiming it" towards Dayton/Etc. and go from there ...

As for the "reasons" why think I already covered that from my perspective(if not in reply to your message then elsewhere in this thread) , but keep in mind The "channel charts" won't tell you things such as when Cincinnati is running weather coverage and Dayton is running Network HD ....

WBDT-DT has CW HD, there is no CW HD from Cincinnati ... WPTD-DT currently has PBS HD feed up 24/7 (completely different schedule from WPTO-DT's HD) ....

Dayton stations also sometimes carry different sports coverage, such as NFL HD games. If you search/go back in this thread to last NFL season, Jimp2244 posted a detailed list weekly of which games the Cincinnati+Dayton stations had last season ....

use a CM 3045 distribution amp to serve up the OTA signal to up to about 6 locations in the house.

That sounds like a good idea but I'd stick a FM trap before the CM3045 as well, My CM cataog doesn't say it has one ...

BTW CM3045 also has a return path (5~42 MHZ) for cable modem applications ... Long story but I ran into a weird issue with that, a RF modulator on a Dish 311 receiver and a CM3042 here, which in short ended up creating IMD/spurious signals all over the place (including for example on Channel 9 ) .... It probably won't cause any issues for the application your going to be using it for, but you might want to keep an eye out for it .....

Update: On 2nd thought, i suppose it's not all that long of a story .... Basically, the issue involved the "return path" on The CM3042, and the RF In/Out on the Dish 311 receiver(RF in connected to feed from an antenna, CM3042 was used for VHF distribution amp, RF out from the 311 went to a S-VHS VCR with internal NTSC tuner) ....

It wasn't actually a problem with the RF modulator (I probably "shortened" things too much there), instead, what happened was When the RF modulator was active (switched in/out with a "TV/video" button on remote, default when you turn on the receiver/etc ), apparently the "RF in" on the 311 did not seem to be properly terminated, and I suspect the impedance mismatching etc/involved thus caused a problem with the "return path" capabilities of the amp ... Interestingly/oddly enough though, putting a coax stub filter in line, even before the amp(cut for something just below 50MHZ or so) solved the problem with the spurious signals the amp created when improperly terminated output .... Note this may be an issue that is very "specific" to my setup with the channel traps/etc. I have in line before the amp, but for instance, the issue doesn't exist at all with amps w/o "return paths" ..... : end update

Are signal strength meters expensive and useful to help with amp overload?

Yes, but #1). you probably don't need one, and #2). To really see what is going on with Digital TV signals regarding multipath/etc. you need a full fledged spectrum analyzer (which is even more expensive) ... Looking at the analog signals while they are still on the air (and we'll have the LP's up past feb 17 as well) can also be benefical, as with analog reception, WYSIWYG, and what you get with analog can (sometimes, not allways) tell you a lot about what is going on with your digital reception as well ...

In any case, let us know how it works out ....

jimp2244

06-13-08, 02:23 PM

2008 WEBN Fireworks in HD on WLWT!

http://beta.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=PluckPersona&U=5c49394b12564ab6832411d82ad3a991&plckPersonaPage=BlogViewPost&plckUserId=5c49394b12564ab6832411d82ad3a991&plckPostId=Blog%3a5c49394b12564ab6832411d82ad3a991Post%3a977 0e847-cced-44e6-801a-8c69614ac764&plckController=PersonaBlog&plckScript=personaScript&plckElementId=personaDest
David Ashbrock To Direct Ch 5's Fireworks
Posted 6/13/2008 2:11 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com
John Kiesewetter's blog

After last year's dud, here's some great news about the Ch 5's WEBN-FM fireworks broadcast: Ch 5 has hired David Ashbrock, one of the best TV directors in town, for the live Aug. 31 telecast.

The former Ch 19 production director has directed hundreds of basketball and football games, plus newscasts and even game shows. He also directed the WEBN-FM fireworks in 1985-86 for Ch 19, the first station to televise them.

More good news: Ch 5 will do the fireworks in HDTV. (Ch 12 did them in HD 3-4 years ago, when far fewer folks had HDTV sets.)

I'm writing about Ch 5 hiring Ashbrock, as a freelancer, for Sunday's paper. He promises not to put a long-distance camera in Devou Park (where Covington buildings blocked the view last year), and to stick with shots longer. Ch. 5 sought another director after hundreds of complaints -- more than 325 on this blog alone! -- about last year's awful telecast.

Says Ch 5 GM Richard Dyer: "We're pleased to have someone of Dave's experience to support our efforts. We learned some valuable lessons from last year's broadcast, and have taken solid steps to make our 2008 broadcast a great viewing experience for Tristate viewers. The biggest improvements include broadcasting in high definition and streamlining our camera positions. Dave's extensive background in live production will be a valuable asset in our planning and execution."

It could be a blast this year with Ashbrock calling the shots...

ohiogal

06-14-08, 12:42 PM

anybody know why WKOI dt is off the air? my son was trying to watch a christen program on the smile of a child network and all of a sudden its off the air.

robmadden1

06-14-08, 07:29 PM

It's off in my area too here in Delhi. I wanted to watch a program on it also but i couldn't most of the sub channels on my directv but some are not like the JTV. I Like to watch JTV sometimes. For all we know the flooding in Indiana may have taken thier digital signal out.

ohiogal

06-14-08, 08:04 PM

yeah, thats true but i heard from another group that their tower is in trenton ohio.

pjpjpjpj

06-15-08, 08:11 PM

Here's an odd one, and I'm sure it's me, but I'll throw it out there in case someone else has seen something...

Since about last Thursday, I've been having issues with, of all things, WLWT (digital). I say "of all things" because it has previously been a complete "lay-up" in terms of reception. Almost every single antenna type, configuration, location, and direction that I have tried in my attic has had WLWT-DT locked at 100% across the board on my HD Homerun meter ("signal strength", "signal quality", and "symbol quality"), by far better than any other station (Cincinnati or Dayton) in terms of reliably solid, unwavering signal. Heck, a homemade little DB4 leaning behind the TV in the living room gets it in the 80s.

But for some reason, the attic antenna is suddenly having fits, just on channel 35. Absolutely nothing has changed in my setup (Lord knows I'm not going in the attic in this weather), but since about last Thursday, the "signal quality" has been all over the board. My "strength" meter is still in the 90s or at 100%, but the signal quality is fluctuating wildly between the 80s and about the 20s or maybe even occasionally (and very briefly) zero. My wife recorded "Last Comic Standing" and it was nearly unwatchable; on Friday night, live TV was literally unwatchable (not staying locked long enough to even be worth it).

I suppose it could be weather-related (though it's been this hot previously with no noticeable issues), or maybe, I dunno, someone built a new building or chopped down a tree somewhere in the 15 miles between downtown and Evendale.... but I was just wondering if anyone else out there had been seeing problems too. Is it possible that having very, very hot air in the attic, immediately surrounding the antenna, could cause problems (but if so, why only one station)? Is it possible that the signal is (due to weather) coming in so strongly that it's getting "new" (not seen before to me) multipath issues?

Trip in VA

06-15-08, 08:40 PM

Is the problem 24/7 or only around sunrise/sunset?

- Trip

pjpjpjpj

06-15-08, 09:32 PM

Is the problem 24/7 or only around sunrise/sunset?

- Trip

Well, "Last Comic Standing" aired Thursday from 8:30 pm to 10:30 pm, so that would encompass "sunset". We watched it Friday evening, and afterwards, when I turned on WLWT live, it was as bad or worse, and I believe that was around 8 pm or so (before sunset). Saturday morning, it was bad as well, and I may have checked it briefly during the late afternoon.

However, after I typed that last post (an hour ago or so), the strength was back around 95-100 and the quality was in the high 80s and low 90s... but as I type this (9:30 pm Sunday night), the signal strength is pegged at 93%, and the quality is fluctuating between 70% and 80%. Not great (compared to the past), but better than the last few days, and it doesn't appear that I would be having dropouts if I turned on the TV.

Hmmmm.... :confused: ...it's gotta be weather-related. I don't know what else would make it so "consistently inconsistent".

robmadden1

06-15-08, 09:48 PM

I know when the weather is bad my tv reads 19,1 in the upper 50's to low 60s when it should be around in the lower to uper 80's somhimes around 90. I wonder why 2 of us here still can't get WKOI digital?

Trip in VA

06-15-08, 09:53 PM

Yeah, I'm thinking there could be tropo. Another signal on channel 35 might be screwing with you. The nearest channels 35 I can think of are WLIO and WOUC-DT.

- Trip

robmadden1

06-16-08, 12:06 AM

Tropo tonight 11:17pm

Radio

107.9 the track

95.3 Dayton

94.5 dayton

92.1 dayton

90.3 but dont know where its from

102.9 dayton

TV
2.1-.2 Dayton

23 Indianapolis

59 Indianapolis

63 Indianapolis

WNKY TV 40

51 but dont know where its from

ohiogal

06-16-08, 07:54 AM

well half of my stations, channel 2, channel 14 and channel 16 have no signal, but if i put on a regular indoor intenna i get them back but i loose my cinci station. i wonder if the lighting did something to our big outdoor attenna?

fgrogan

06-16-08, 11:11 AM

Just a quick update to my OTA situation:

I crawled into the attic on sat to see how much room I will have to place my antenna. I forgot that with the pre-sab trusses that there is a center support that runs up to the peak of the room. not good for having room to swing a large antenna. and the trusses are on 24" centers, so not much lateral room either. and there is a ton of insulation (loose kind) that will make working up there a real challange, as its hard to see where to step and move around.

So, plan B it is! We have some attic space that is on top of our garage and has a partially finished floor, but no insulation so its wide open. its not as high off the ground as the main attic, but I think it will be ok. certainly more room and much much easier to get to (ladder from garage) and easier to work in (most of it has a plywood floor and no insulation). the exterior is hardi-plank so the antenna will be facing the transmitters via the side of the house and not the room. anyone have any ideas about how hardi-plank compares to roofing material for signal penetration?

I will try to run a peice of RG6 back to my home run location, its probably a total of 75' thru the various walls to get to one end to the other. Any suggestions on where I can read up on proper cable fishing techniques and equipment to run rg6 from the top plate of a wall, down through an enclosed wall (seperates gagarge from house), through the bottom plate and then I can pull it acrosss the ceiling of the unfinished basement to the home run location.

Finally, i purchased the AM21 OTA tuner from DirecTV and it works great. I really like how it integrated into the guide and then I can pick and chose which channels to incluide. plus it gives me a signal strength indicatores, which my Sony TV does not. Easy to use. I have rabbit ears hooked up and the Channel 5 signal is great. others not bad too.

pjpjpjpj

06-16-08, 01:11 PM

the exterior is hardi-plank so the antenna will be facing the transmitters via the side of the house and not the room. anyone have any ideas about how hardi-plank compares to roofing material for signal penetration?
My siding is hardi-plank, though I am really aiming more through the sloped roof than that siding... because - and you should check this yourself - even in the uninsulated parts of my attic over the garage, the siding is not just hardi-plank, but has foil-faced insulation "boards" on the inside. I suspect your would be the same way... I can't imagine that you can see the backs of the hardiiplank from inside (meaning it's the only thing between the attic space and the outdoors). Foil-faced insulation would reflect signals.

Any suggestions on where I can read up on proper cable fishing techniques and equipment to run rg6 from the top plate of a wall, down through an enclosed wall (seperates gagarge from house), through the bottom plate and then I can pull it acrosss the ceiling of the unfinished basement to the home run location.
I don't think there's any "proper" technique other than whatever works. Good luck with that. I have those flexible rods that screw together (with the hook or eye on the end) and also a fish tape (just from the local bog box hardware store), and still cable fishing was the toughest part of my whole experience. If you don't mind drywall patching, I'd recommend the basic method of just cutting holes near the baseboards and patching afterwards....

fgrogan

06-16-08, 02:43 PM

My siding is hardi-plank, though I am really aiming more through the sloped roof than that siding... because - and you should check this yourself - even in the uninsulated parts of my attic over the garage, the siding is not just hardi-plank, but has foil-faced insulation "boards" on the inside. I suspect your would be the same way... I can't imagine that you can see the backs of the hardiiplank from inside (meaning it's the only thing between the attic space and the outdoors). Foil-faced insulation would reflect signals.

I don't think there's any "proper" technique other than whatever works. Good luck with that. I have those flexible rods that screw together (with the hook or eye on the end) and also a fish tape (just from the local bog box hardware store), and still cable fishing was the toughest part of my whole experience. If you don't mind drywall patching, I'd recommend the basic method of just cutting holes near the baseboards and patching afterwards....

pjpjpjpj

great point, I totally forgot about the insulating board. i will have to check on the garage, even thought its attached, I don't think its insulated anywhere, but they could have used the foil cover board. I might have to move the antenna to the other side od the attich space and aim it thru the roofing as i would have in the main house attic. great feedback, thanks.

ohiogal

06-16-08, 07:56 PM

found out why wkoi has low signal, they are working on something and they are under low power at this time.

robmadden1

06-18-08, 05:01 AM

Tropo June 18th 4:30am

Fox 41 Louisville

42 Indinana

40 not sure where it from

11 kentucky

3 from louisville like its a local

fox 59 indianapolis

63 indinana like a local

cw 4.1 since 48 wcet is off air indianapolis signal strength at 39 to 42 and no breakups

2.1 and 2.2 dayton

ohiogal

06-18-08, 11:24 AM

well just lost wkoi completly.

lastmanager

06-18-08, 03:41 PM

I apologize if this not properly posted...in either the correct forum or as a new thread.

I have a new Samsung 40" LCD model LN-T4053H. I am operating the TV with only a roof mounted OTA, no cable or Direct TV. I live in Florence, KY and I have done the research of which direction the antenna should be pointing. The antenna is old, maybe 30 years and although I am thrilled in general with the HD channels and having so many to choose from, but I have a lot of problems with reception. Channel 12 regularly doesn't come in for a day or two and then will be fine. Other channels also come and go and I have a lot of problems with certain stations pixelating. I have done all kinds of adjustments with the antenna and got it to a place where I was getting all the channels and locked it in place so I could tell if slight turns with the wind were causing my problems. But stations still come and go. Channel 12 has been out for me the last couple of days. I will mention 2 other things that might help someone let me know if I need to purchase a new antenna and/or new antenna cables or if the TV needs tuner repair.

I have found that when my next store neighbor runs his lawnmower, it messes up my reception on all my channels, all of them pixelate. Also I just bought a Phillips DVDR3576H. I have it hooked up by RCA connections right now and have found that the tuner is apparently stronger on it. For instance 14.6 is breaking up a lot on the TV tuner but hardly breaking up at all on the DVDR tuner. Unfortunately the picture is not as good through the DVD+R but I attribute that to the RCA connections.

I will happily give you more information if need be as this is all quite frustrating to me. Thanks for your help.

lastmanager

robmadden1

06-18-08, 03:56 PM

Rusted bolts, bad wires can mess the signal up with interferance. I recomend you get up there and check things out. Also anew antenna might do you good with a rotator for digtal tv since digital tv is line of site.

terryfoster

06-18-08, 04:04 PM

My initial reaction is that you've got some shielding issues on your antenna line. You may want to try putting some new ends on your antenna cable. Depending on the condition of your antenna (broken elements, bent elements, etc) you may need to replace it as well.

Splicer010

06-18-08, 04:13 PM

lastmanager

06-18-08, 09:37 PM

thanks for the input. I have been checking prices and probably will pick up an HDMI cable to better utilize the tuner on the DVD+R and new coaxial cable from monoprice. The prices are so reasonable I might as well. I wish they sold outdoor antennas also. I just went to my local Wal-Mart and Home Depot and neither one carry outdoor antennas. MY zip code is 41042 and I am about 12 miles from most of the stations I want with mostly a range of 38-44 degrees. Would anyone have a recommendation for an antenna and a possible source for purchasing it?

Bubster

06-18-08, 09:49 PM

Mystro sucks.

Crashes and reboots once every few days. Is it just me?

gerhard911

06-18-08, 10:19 PM

Mystro sucks.

Crashes and reboots once every few days. Is it just me?

I agree that it sucks although I have detected only a couple of crashes since I was converted (@ a month ago). My biggest beef is with the program guide - S-L-O-W doesn't even begin to describe it. And the old Passport used to use your Favorites to skip through the guide. With the new POS hitting the FAV key exits the guide and takes you to the next Favorite channel. ARRRRRRG !

All in the name of trying to sell you more Pay Per View which I have never and will never order.

Nitewatchman

06-18-08, 10:32 PM

Would anyone have a recommendation for an antenna and a possible source for purchasing it?

Just about any small~medium size VHF/UHF combo should do fine I'd think. IF you want to go "local" Radio Shack still sells those (RS-VU90 for instance) don't they?

Online, there are several places that sell outdoor antennas and "accessories". I've had good success with solidsignal ... Plenty of antennas solidsignal carries which would likely be good choices, but For DTV reception for you, for now and after feb 17 (for Hi-VHF and UHF) This one would probably be a good choice :

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=HD7694P

terryfoster

06-19-08, 06:38 AM

I have been checking prices and probably will pick up an HDMI cable to better utilize the tuner on the DVD+R and new coaxial cable from monoprice.

I could be wrong, but I think you can find a better deal on coax from Home Depot or Lowes over Monoprice (mostly due to shipping costs).

slimm

06-19-08, 07:12 AM

Mystro sucks.

Crashes and reboots once every few days. Is it just me?

I've had two reboots just scrolling the program guide.

jimp2244

06-19-08, 12:08 PM

lastmanager

06-19-08, 01:06 PM

I could be wrong, but I think you can find a better deal on coax from Home Depot or Lowes over Monoprice (mostly due to shipping costs).

I thought that too but I was really pleasantly surprised by the prices at Monoprice. Here is what I got from them and the cost.

RG6 F Type Quad Shielded Coaxial 18AWG CL2 Rated 75Ohm Cable - 25ft
$4.13

RG6 F Type Quad Shielded Coaxial 18AWG CL2 Rated 75Ohm Cable - 50ft
$7.38

HDMI 1.3a Cable 28AWG - 3ft w/Ferrite Cores (Gold Plated Connectors) - BLACK
$3.19

RG6 F Type Quad Shielded Coaxial 18AWG CL2 Rated 75Ohm Cable - 6ft
$1.84

Subtotal : $16.54
Shipping & Handling Cost : $8.92
GRAND TOTAL : $25.46

When I checked prices at WalMart it was $16.86 for 25 ft of the same coaxial and $19.82 for 50 ft. So just buying those 2 would have cost $36.64 plus $2.20 tax.

terryfoster

06-19-08, 02:05 PM

Glad that worked out for you, I was looking at 100' of coax which ran ~$15 at Home Depot.

zekyl

06-19-08, 03:12 PM

I agree that it sucks although I have detected only a couple of crashes since I was converted (@ a month ago). My biggest beef is with the program guide - S-L-O-W doesn't even begin to describe it. And the old Passport used to use your Favorites to skip through the guide. With the new POS hitting the FAV key exits the guide and takes you to the next Favorite channel. ARRRRRRG !

All in the name of trying to sell you more Pay Per View which I have never and will never order.

I 100% agree. It is slow and clunky. I have had a few reboots when just looking through the guide. I hate that I can no longer go through the menus using my FAV button. Totally usless now in my opinion.

I'll give them a bit to fix things, but then I am going to seriously look at DirectTV again.

pjpjpjpj

06-19-08, 04:39 PM

I thought that too but I was really pleasantly surprised by the prices at Monoprice. Here is what I got from them and the cost.
.....
When I checked prices at WalMart it was $16.86 for 25 ft of the same coaxial and $19.82 for 50 ft. So just buying those 2 would have cost $36.64 plus $2.20 tax.
Glad that worked out for you, I was looking at 100' of coax which ran ~$15 at Home Depot.
In general, I have found that monoprice is worth it for "fancier" things like HDMI (only about 10 times cheaper than "Monster Cable" at BestBuy/CC/HHG), or "VGA + stereo", or "component + audio", etc. But if you are buying things that are pretty basic (like long coax), you won't make up the shipping difference unless you buy several items in one order.

Of course, I bought a couple of 100' CAT5E cables from monoprice for like $12 each, and they were $79.99 each at the local Staples (only place I could find 100')... :eek:

terryfoster

06-19-08, 04:50 PM

^^^
I completely agree.

lastmanager

06-19-08, 06:32 PM

Just about any small~medium size VHF/UHF combo should do fine I'd think. IF you want to go "local" Radio Shack still sells those (RS-VU90 for instance) don't they?

Online, there are several places that sell outdoor antennas and "accessories". I've had good success with solidsignal ... Plenty of antennas solidsignal carries which would likely be good choices, but For DTV reception for you, for now and after feb 17 (for Hi-VHF and UHF) This one would probably be a good choice :

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=HD7694P

Jeff,

Thanks for the info on the antennas. I looked at the solidsignal one and also Radio Shack. I will see how things go after I replace all the cables and if I am still having problems I will probably purchase one of the above.

WebHopperWeasel

06-20-08, 12:03 PM

I don't believe Weasel is employed by WKRC any more.

Sorry to hear that, I had heard their CE went elsewhere, but hadn't heard anything about Ken ......

I am still here at the station. The CE did leave awhile back. He moved onto bigger things.

blbrodbeck

06-20-08, 02:42 PM

Mystro sucks.

Crashes and reboots once every few days. Is it just me?

I'm trying to watch the White Sox/Cubs on WGN through the digital box. The picture keeps freezing. It is unwatchable. So, I unhooked the box & sent the cable directly into the TV and the picture is not freezing at all this way. It works just fine w/o the digital box.

robmadden1

06-21-08, 02:42 AM

Tropo Cincinnati - June 21, 2008 at 1am

Fox 59.1 indianapolis (as if it was a local)

cbs 32 (think its kentucky)

Fox 41

21 dont know where its from

40 religious

42 indianapolis

23 indianapolis

pbs 20

WKMJ 68 louisville

2.1 and 2.2 dayton

nbc 13.1 and 13.2 indianapolis

63.1 - .4 inianapolis

Splicer010

06-21-08, 07:16 AM

What is this..."tropo"...you keep speaking of???:confused:

Bubster

06-21-08, 11:13 AM

What is this..."tropo"...you keep speaking of???:confused:

http://www.tpub.com/content/neets/14182/css/14182_97.htm

Basically, you can pick up signals from far away places because of the condition of the atmosphere.

robmadden1

06-21-08, 10:33 PM

As of 10pm I was getting 16.2-.6 here in Delhi on a indoor antenna. I have never recived it before in digital.

robmadden1

06-24-08, 02:07 AM

This is so weird I get a better signal on 9. with the window closed then when its open the reverse for my stereo.

On 9.1 with window open I get between 42 and 44 and wqith it closed I get 52 to 53.

Could it be caused by a metal framed window?

ohiogal

06-24-08, 05:58 AM

on my converter box on channel 12.1 and 12.2 i get the date Thurs jan 2 1997 and 3:28 pm and usually i get better signal from them. no problems with the other cinci stations
does this have something to do with them cutting staff?

Nitewatchman

06-24-08, 02:37 PM

Good to hear WH Weasel is still at KRC' + still here on the forum ...

----------------------------------
robmadden,

Anything near antenna becomes "connected" to it, effectively becoming "part of the antenna", and thus effecting it's performance.

--------------------------

as for WKRC's current PSIP, there is incorrect time/date info in STT, and there are no EIT streams, although they are defined in MGT. My WAG(just a guess) would be that they are dealing with/working on a temporary equipment issue or 'improvements' of some sort --

Update 8:45pm - notice WKRC's STT info is now correct and EIT streams are there now as well ...

tbenson81

06-24-08, 09:28 PM

For the past couple of days the audio on WLWT has been all jacked up. Its definitely not outputting 5.1 correctly. Voice is coming from both front and rear speakers. Noticed this on Sunday for the Olympic trials and again last night for American Gladiators. All other channels seem to be fine. Anyone else notice this?

Tony

Splicer010

06-25-08, 07:00 AM

Yes...NBC evening news w/Brian Williams has the sound coming out the rear speakers also...On Sunday somebody...somewhere...was flipping switches...or equipment went bad...because I couldn't watch WLWT more than 2 minutes when my QAM tuner would show no signal and then flip into the weather plus channel...as it did when KET used to switch to HD in the evenings...As of Monday & Tuesday it was OK and as normal only did it at the 8PM...or primetime switch...

Nitewatchman

06-27-08, 12:31 PM

Believe we've went through this in detail on previous occasions, however as a short "reminder", keep in mind different receiver makes/models behave differently depending upon their design and regarding certian information which is sent (or not sent) to allow receivers to identify (and allow the user the user to select via certian "channel numbers") program streams properly ...

--------------------

Robmadden1,

if you have a Lo-VHF antenna, you might also want to try looking for E-skip or "Es" (Sporadic E) DX on ch 2~6, especially around this time of year ... Most common reception distances via E-skip range between about 800 and 1300 Miles. It also isn't uncommon for E-skip MUF (maximum usable frequency) to raise into FM band, it's happened here occasionally over the past couple of hours in fact ....

Snagged WBZ 4 Boston(712 Miles) here about 30 minutes ago via Es, attached is screenshot ... This is of course is the last summer season for U.S. analog "full power" station Es receptions ....

tbenson81

06-27-08, 07:32 PM

[QUOTE=Nitewatchman;14172812]Believe we've went through this in detail on previous occasions, however as a short "reminder", keep in mind different receiver makes/models behave differently depending upon their design and regarding certian information which is sent (or not sent) to allow receivers to identify (and allow the user the user to select via certian "channel numbers") program streams properly ...

Not really sure what you are referrring to here Jeff as the problem definitely had nothing to do with the receiver or its settings. If a show is being broadcast in 5.1 and the receiver is decoding the stream in straight Dolby Digital without adding any additional processing, there would be no reason that voice should come out of any other speaker other than front center. If it does.....then there is a problem with the stream. The problem definitely lied with WLWT and has since been resolved.

Tony

Nitewatchman

06-27-08, 07:39 PM

I was not reffering to an audio issue.

robmadden1

06-28-08, 04:01 AM

What type of antenna did you use to pick up the e-skip? I only have this antenna: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2131034&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032204&parentPage=family

Nitewatchman

06-28-08, 03:51 PM

VHF antenna used was Winegard PR5030 at about 33Feet above ground (outdoors, with rotor). Here's the current version (HD5030) of it :

http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewitem.asp?p=HD-5030

However, at times Signals via E-skip can be VERY strong and receivable via indoor antennas, even VHF "rabbit ears". For analog TV DX, it's best to use a TV which does not "blank"/Mute the screen when weak or interference laden signals are present, and for example which will show "snow" when no signals are present ...

bnewsom

06-29-08, 04:20 PM

jim tressler

06-29-08, 10:32 PM

bluegrass was 1 out of 2 for me.. first time the guy was great - did a hell of a job - second guy (about 1 year later) was an idiot... messed up the dish because he thought he could get the signal tweaked better. skylink came out and they were ok - installed the new slimline dish - did an ok job - forgot to put the tie rods on.. so they had to come back.. but it took some complaining to get it done.. moral of the story.. its a crapshoot! go with whomever can best fit in your schedule.

jim

cadet502

06-30-08, 08:34 AM

I just signed up for Directv (was fed up with TWC, limited HD, and that new Navigator software)...

My biggest concern is getting a shoddy installer through Directv... It turns out, that one of their preferred installers shutdown, so I have to book the installation directly. They gave me two names/numbers: Bluegrass and Skylink... I have no idea if these companies are any good.

I prefer to have a recommendation from a satisfied customer. Any recommendations?

I was 3 for 3 with Bluegrass, it helped that I knew more than they did, and I worked right along with them. It wouldn't hurt to spend some time reviewing the installation forum over at dbstalk.com so you know what to watch out for.

http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=113

CincySaint

06-30-08, 10:14 AM

I was 1 for 3 with Bluegrass.

They were five hours late for the first appointment so I ended up re-scheduling. They said someone got "sick". I called D* to complain and ended up with free HBO and Showtime for 3 months.

The first guy to show up was professional and attentive (even came up with a good idea to put the dish on the roof) BUT... after a day, no HD channels were working.

Bluegrass #2 came out and did a great job. He traced all the lines back to the dish. He replaced ALL the connectors. He worked with me to make sure that I had a strong signal from every dish.

And I have no problems since then.

So I'd say their service was not great but they have a lot of resources.

William Smith

06-30-08, 12:09 PM

6speed

06-30-08, 02:43 PM

I've had pretty good luck with Bluegrass.If something was wrong they did make it right.I've never heard of the other company,so I can't comment.

bnewsom

06-30-08, 06:23 PM

Does Bluegrass typically install the latest equipment (hr21, slimline dish, etc.)? Any chance they still have any hr20 dvrs with the OTA tuner?

jim tressler

07-01-08, 08:13 AM

It depends on what they have in the truck or in the warehouse. You will get a slimline - now whether its the original slimline or the new swm slimline depends on their stock. I doubt they have any Hr20's left - I believe production was halted on those a few months ago. I would make sure you tell directv that you want the ota module - make it a part of the notes for the install with directv. I would then call bluegrass a week in advance and make sure they are bringing it.

robmadden1

07-05-08, 02:49 AM

Anyone notice when thier is live music on cet 48.1 the audio cuts out for like a second or 2 every few minutes? It did it during Capital 4th last night and it was very annoying. Why do they do this?

Splicer010

07-05-08, 05:59 AM

Watched the Capital 4th myself last night on CET...Huey was in excellent form...I wasn't too pleased with how the National Anthem was performed though...However...absolutely ZERO audio dropouts thruout the entire program...And I had Huey cranked up...:)Watched up till the fireworks then took the kids to Kings Island to watch their spectacular show...with no audio dropouts either...;)

blbrodbeck

07-05-08, 07:48 PM

For the first time, the Bengals preseason exhibition games will be in Hi Def.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080705/SPT02/807050375

Bill R (# 2)

07-05-08, 08:35 PM

Anyone notice when thier is live music on cet 48.1 the audio cuts out for like a second or 2 every few minutes? It did it during Capital 4th last night and it was very annoying. Why do they do this?

I watch Capital 4th on CET (via the OTA feed) and noticed NO sound dropouts. It could be that the problem is on your end. Multipath can cause a problem like that.

robmadden1

07-06-08, 12:45 AM

skylab

07-06-08, 09:06 AM

robmadden1,

I was getting the audio dropouts as well. It happened every few minutes, and for just a split second. I don't know if this makes a difference, but I was listening on 5.1 surround sound.

Splicer010

07-06-08, 10:23 AM

I was watching the HD feed not SD feed. It only happens when they use the national feed for PBS. KET's feed sounded fine no cuting of the audio but cet still had better picture and audio with the cut outs then ket. I use a OTA antenna for all my local channels. It only does this when they are doing live music like on soundstage or austin city limits or even like last nights capital 4th.

I kinda figured you were talking about the HD feed...Kinda pointless to complain about SD at this stage of the game...;)

All I can say is that there were NO DROPOUTS at all for the Capital 4th show...Also I listened in 5.1...which is much more sensitive and noticeable to any audio flaws...and it was absolutely perfect...

pjpjpjpj

07-10-08, 01:17 PM

So I bought my 2 converter boxes - the Zeniths - yesterday with my coupons at HH Gregg (Tri-County). I was on my lunch break and the store was practically empty (thank goodness, since it took the guy about 20 minutes to ring them up due to having to log in the govt website, activate the cards, blah blah blah). They had just received a shipment of 50 boxes in (pure luck on my part, I had no idea they were hard to get any more). They literally had just logged them in off the truck - the guy had to go in the back and take them from the "logged-in pile". The guy said they would probably be gone by the time they closed.

That made me curious... surely (in suburban Cincinnati) there aren't that many people who NEED them... I would think the large majority of the public here "in town" has cable or satellite. The guy confirmed my suspicion... he said that, if the customer actually talks to the sales associate about it while purchasing, that they are finding that probably 90% of the people in there buying boxes with govt coupons don't even need the boxes.

They get lots of "I just got my first HDTV and I want to make sure I can still watch it next year!!"

And repeat a lot of: "No, ma'am, if you have an HDTV, then it has a digital tuner, and you don't need a converter box for that".

And they also get a lot of "I want to make sure I can still watch my cable next February".

He said they have sold tons of them to people who came in, asked about it, found out they didn't need it, but then bought it anyway, because, "by gosh, the government gave them a $40 coupon and they sure weren't gonna let it go to waste!!" :rolleyes:

Which just confirms the fact that the American public, by and large, is either technologically impaired, pays no attention to detail, or is just plain clueless (or stupid?)... and probably a combination of some or all.... :)

jim tressler

07-10-08, 02:24 PM

I say combo - with stupidity leading the way - of course that does not apply to any of us :)

Nitewatchman

07-10-08, 04:26 PM

He said they have sold tons of them to people who came in, asked about it, found out they didn't need it, but then bought it anyway, because, "by gosh, the government gave them a $40 coupon and they sure weren't gonna let it go to waste!!"

Good for them as whether they realize it or not The funding for the coupon program comes from the auction of our public spectrum/airwaves, specifically the portion of it currently being used by TV stations on ch 52~69 (note, yes "only" 88MHZ of that has been/is being auctioned, the other 24 MHZ is going to public safety) .....

It makes perfect sense, auction off this portion of spectrum to highest bidder, and use a portion of the proceeds to fund the CECB's, so we can get something "back" for something that's being taken away (free to air broadcasting on ch 52~69 - From now on, you'll probably have to pay the qualcomm's to "receive" the services they are putting there ...).

The more folks who get their coupons, buy a box and use OTA (regardless of whether or not they also use cable/satellite), the better IMO ....

That made me curious... surely (in suburban Cincinnati) there aren't that many people who NEED them...

Roughly 15% of households are OTA only(That's roughly true for Cincinnati as well per a study I've seen recently based on Neilsen data from APTS), many more have cable or satellite but use OTA on sets not connected to cable/sat. The first "round" of coupons are for all those folks, for the sets which don't have a DTV receiver in them, when/if the funds run out for the first round of coupons, the second round are for OTA only ...

And repeat a lot of: "No, ma'am, if you have an HDTV, then it has a digital tuner, and you don't need a converter box for that".

Unless you have one of the Millions of HDTV "ready" sets or non-digital TV's sold before the FCC's tuner mandate went into full effect --- which just happened last year, even though the legislation requiring analog shut off was enacted in the Mid-nineties, and TV stations were required to "go digital" in the Late 90's or by 2002~03 or so ....

The CE manufactuers didn't want to put the digital receivers in the sets because it cost them more $$$, (and that was "OK" because "everybody who watches TV uses satellite and cable, right?) but they were finally forced to do so, I suspect partly because it was "realized" by TPTB the DTV transition wasn't going to happen anytime soon when OTA viewers who go to buy a set have very limited choices regarding what they can buy to actually receive DTV ..... Yeah, as a OTA viewer, in 2001, I paid thousands of $$$ for a HD set with internal DTV receiver, but not many more of us did, If you could even FIND one, or a $400~600 OTA HD STB to hook up to your "HD ready" set ....

And of course, guess who gets the $$$'s from the coupons .....

Which just confirms the fact that the American public, by and large, is either technologically impaired, pays no attention to detail, or is just plain clueless (or stupid?)... and probably a combination of some or all.... :)

Anyone who has ever had a job "dealing with the public" will usually agree with that last part ;)

pjpjpjpj

07-10-08, 04:35 PM

Unless you have one of the Millions of HDTV "ready" sets or non-digital TV's sold before the FCC's tuner mandate went into full effect --- which just happened last year, even though the legislation requiring analog shut off was enacted in the Mid-nineties, and TV stations were required to "go digital" in the Late 90's or by 2002~03 or so ....

Note that the quote from the "customer" was "I just bought an HDTV..." ;)

Nitewatchman

07-10-08, 05:01 PM

Note that the quote from the "customer" was "I just bought an HDTV..." ;)

Yes, and the Definition for word Unless = "except on Condition that" ...

Hence my comments beginning --- "unless you have a
"HDTV ready" set (set without a OTA DTV receiver "built in", not a "HDTV" which is usually considered a set with a DTV receiver "built in" ) ...

Meaning "you" in general as in "anyone", not a particular customer who just "bought" a HDTV -- hence one of the reasons why I did not quote that particular portion of your post about the customer "just buying" an HDTV" ......

pjpjpjpj

07-10-08, 09:35 PM

Ah, Jeff, don't you just love the internet, and the lack of tone-of-voice? :D

ncincy1

07-11-08, 11:10 AM

It's my understanding there will be a new, significant increase in power and a move from 18.1 to 26.1 digital, for Dayton's CW - WBDT.

We may be able to finally receive WBDT (CW) in HD here in Cincinnati:)

WBDT-DT has filed fwith the FCC and receive a CP for 26 for post-transition ... The CP Application accepted by FCC on 6/20/08 is for 50KW ERP, but they also sent another application for a signifuicant increase in power - to 770KW ERP

NOTE: I still receive all other Dayton stations, except WBDT 18.1 - with an attic mounted antenna in Sharonville - with the following levels:

WDTN -DT (85 -100)
WHIO -DT (90 - 95)
WPTD - DT (95 - 100)
WKEF - DT (75 - 80)
WRGT - DT (70 - 75)

Q: Will the SW "null" still prevent us from getting a decent signal in Hamilton County when WBDT goes to 26.1 with either power increase (50KW ERP or 770KW ERP)?

Q: Will we have to wait until the February date to see this improvement.

Inquiring minds would like to know.

Thanks.......

pjpjpjpj

07-11-08, 11:58 AM

jimp2244

07-11-08, 12:54 PM

We may be able to finally receive WBDT (CW) in HD here in Cincinnati:)

NOTE: I still receive all other Dayton stations, except WBDT 18.1 - with an attic mounted antenna in Sharonville

I currently receive WBDT-DT with no issues here in Sharonville with a roof-top medium-sized VHF/UHF combo antenna with rotor. It is just above threshold but I don't get any dropouts on any of my digital receivers... I enjoy Reaper in HD and sometimes Smallville but other than that I don't watch the channel much. Not to mention they stretch SD content to fill the 16:9 screen making everyone distorted and "fat" looking, and they refuse to fix this even after contacting them many times.

Not that I'm going to complain if WBDT-DT does increase power...

I believe they have filed for the increase but I don't believe it's been approved yet.

Nitewatchman

07-11-08, 01:24 PM

We may be able to finally receive WBDT (CW) in HD here in Cincinnati:)

Keep in mind, some people In Cincinnati receive them now[update : such as jimp2244 noted above]. Placing receive antenna indoors usually attenuates signals greatly, but I think plughplover has reported receiving them from Fairfield area with an indoor antenna .... I'd guess that's somewhat uncommon however(even from N suburbs), and suspect most receiving them from Cincinnati area are probably using outdoor antenna ...

Q: Will the SW "null" still prevent us from getting a decent signal in Hamilton County when WBDT goes to 26.1 with either power increase (50KW ERP or 770KW ERP)?

If FCC grants the applications (for post transition digital operation on 26) - The change in power from the current 35KW ERP on 18 to 50 KW ERP on 26 is insignificant, only a small fraction of a dB, and the antenna pattern is the same as current.

But, the increase to 770KW ERP would be a significant increase in power(and also includes an antenna pattern change which doesn't have as big of a null towards Cincinnati), and should it actually happen, should definitely make them easier to receive in Cincinnati area.

In more detail :

Using a 180 degree bearing from their tower, (relative field value of .207 according to FCC info on their antenna pattern), they currently squirt about
1500 Watts (1.5KW) ERP in that direction. The 50 KW ERP application shows the same antenna pattern, and the increase in power to the south would be to 2.1 KW ERP, a mere fraction of a dB increase ....

But, the 770KW ERP maximization application would be a significant increase in power, and the antenna pattern is also different/nulls aren't as great to the south. For 180 degree bearing, for example, FCC site shows a .442 relative field value ... Which at the 770KW ERP, would mean they would squirt about 150.4 KW ERP to the south ....

So, The difference between the current 1.5 KW ERP and the 150 KW ER is about 20dB or so increase ...... That's about doubling power 7x (each doubling of power = a 3db increase, which is about the same as say, removing a 2 way splitter on your end) -- "Rule of thumb" wise, on the receive end about the same(or better) as the increase in signal you'd get by moving a receive antenna from indoors to outdoors, or another way to say it would be that 20db is about 3~5db better(2x + more signal) than the difference in signal gain between a UHF loop and the Highest Gain/Best Broadband UHF receive antennas available ...

Q: Will we have to wait until the February date to see this improvement.

Yes, If they are granted by FCC and WBDT implements them, those applications are for their post-transition digital operation on 26. However, I recall I did read in WBDT-DT's DTR (digital transition report to FCC filed a while back) they were planning on doing some late night tests of the digital transmitter on 26 in Jan 09 or so ...

They need to have one of those applications granted to operate on 26 post-transition, pretty safe bet that the 50KW Application is probably likely to be approved. Hopefully, the 770KW App will be approved as well -- But, If it is, I don't know if it's something they'd have built/implemented by Feb ....

ncincy1

07-11-08, 01:55 PM

Let's all "cross our fingers" that 770KW ERP is approved - no more CW in SD on 12.2 --- bye bye WKRC --- hello, WBDT HD!

ncincy1

07-11-08, 01:59 PM

Also, wouldn't the 770KW ERP put them in the same league as the other Dayton "full-power" stations?

When I look at the DT countour maps of WDTN, WHIO, WRGT, etc. they all have much more than 50KW...

Splicer010

07-11-08, 05:29 PM

:rolleyes:I really doubt that they will transmit at anything even remotely resembling 770,000 watts of power...That is ALOT of power/energy required...I just don't see it happening...

Trip in VA

07-11-08, 06:56 PM

:rolleyes:I really doubt that they will transmit at anything even remotely resembling 770,000 watts of power...That is ALOT of power/energy required...I just don't see it happening...

They asked the FCC for permission to transmit that much power, I don't know why they'd waste the money applying for it and then not build it out...

- Trip

Splicer010

07-11-08, 07:13 PM

My bad...I was thinking VHF and not UHF...:o

kyaj2

07-11-08, 09:38 PM

As far as the receivers go...

I went into Best Buy at Tri-County on Monday, where they now have the Apex (was curious about this one since it had the S-Video output). I didn't get it that day so I could do some research. When I went back Wednesday, they were all gone. The salesman said they had gone through 250 in two days. They expected another shipment today.

Went there, and they had them today. So far, the Apex does a pretty good job, although I have little to compare it to. The picture through S-Video is very crisp. My only complaint so far is the remote. It seems to not recognize some of the buttons I push...changing the channel when I push the signal strength button.

I can't say much for how well it picks up the signal...I'm getting 2, 5, 12, 14, 19, 43, 48, and 64. But I'm in a poor-signal area outside of Hamilton, and everything else requires a bit of work with my cheap (read: indoor attenna) setup.

Also, to the other point on here...watching this on a Sony HDTV-ready set, made in 2001. Looking forward to the day when I can actually USE the 1080 resolution this set is capable of...

Splicer010

07-11-08, 09:46 PM

watching this on a Sony HDTV-ready set, made in 2001. Looking forward to the day when I can actually USE the 1080 resolution this set is capable of...

They make HD media players...HD DVD and BD comes to mind...And HD DVD is SUPER inexpensive now...You can upconvert to the closest to HD as possible from your SD DVDs...Also HD DVDs can be had for well under $10/ea now...;)

zekyl

07-11-08, 10:40 PM

Splicer010

07-11-08, 10:45 PM

The purpose of these boxes is to provide ATSC signals to a NTSC set...Thats it...no other reason for them...If you can afford a HDTV...you should be able to afford a HD capable tuner to go with it...These boxes are for those the either can't afford...or don't want...to buy an ATSC capable television...Just my thoughts...;)

kyaj2

07-12-08, 12:11 AM

They make HD media players...HD DVD and BD comes to mind...And HD DVD is SUPER inexpensive now...You can upconvert to the closest to HD as possible from your SD DVDs...Also HD DVDs can be had for well under $10/ea now...;)

Good points, all...

But I'm a cheapskate. ;-)

Seriously, I've got a good standard-def DVD player...it's just the broadcast stations that looked like crap all this time...

Even if I'm not getting the broadcasts in at 1080 right now, it's still WORLDS above where it was before.

Nitewatchman

07-12-08, 04:11 PM

I really doubt that they will transmit at anything even remotely resembling 770,000 watts of power...That is ALOT of power/energy required...I just don't see it happening...

Whether it's VHF or UHF, Note we are talking about ERP, which is effective radiated power.

Transmitter Power Output(TPO) + antenna gain - transmission line Loss = ERP.

As an example of a very high power UHF DTV station, In the case of WKRC-DT's current License, in their 2001 Application for License to cover their Current 800KW ERP (Non DA) facility here(note link requires PDF reader to 0pen) (http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=100554632&formid=2&fac_num=11289), Scroll down to the "Tech Box" information.

It specifies a Transmitter power output of 45.7kW (16.6dBk) - (which by the way is a LOT) , 1.02dB transmission line Loss, Antenna input power 15.58dBk, Antenna gain of 13.42dB --- That adds up to the 800KW ERP, which is radiated in all directions(unlike WBDT-DT's directional antenna pattern) .....

Nitewatchman

07-12-08, 04:49 PM

...These boxes are for those the either can't afford...or don't want...to buy an ATSC capable television...

They are for anyone who wants one, and they can be purchased with or without a coupon.

As for the coupons, all U.S. households (regardless of income level) are eligible for two each of the first round of coupons --- 22.5 Million coupons($890 Million worth) are available per the funding for it. These are available on 1st come first serve basis.

If the funds and coupons for the first "round" of coupons run out, then only OTA Only households are eligible for the 2nd round of coupons, which If I recall correctly are limited to about 12 Million or so additional coupons. It's about 12 Million of them If I've done my math right based on the additional funding they've said they'll allocate for it(an additional $510 Million) if needed and based on $40 per coupon) ....

BTW, The amount they brought in from the proceeds from spectrum auctions of the portions of channel 52~69 which were auctioned far exceed the total cost of the coupon program -- which is 1.5 Billion (Note: unless something has changed since the deficit reduction act of 2005) . Last auction info I had read was that Companies such as AT&T and others spent Over $20 Billion (last I'd read, I don't think that was the total proceeds for the auction of this portion of our spectrum) to use it .....

Read more about it here if you want :

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/frnotices/2007/DTVFinalRule_2a.htm

And here's a brief rundown of the funding info for the Coupons :

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/otiahome/dtv/budgetrequest2008_factsheetDTV.pdf

Also it seems that you can't use the coupon to get a HD box for your HD Ready TV that doesn't have the built in tuner.

Yep, and of course OTA HD STB's have allways been fairly expenisve and there haven't been a lot of them on the shelves, either.

Splicer010

07-12-08, 05:06 PM

They are for anyone who wants one, and they can be purchased with or without a coupon.

Thanks for the clarification Jeff...However in my original post that you quoted...it was in response to the question of these particular units not being able to output 720p...1080i...or 1080p...signals to a HDTV set...NOT who they are available to...with or without a 'coupon'...I do believe it was quite clear to tha point...

As I said:

Originally Posted by Splicer010
...These boxes are for those the either can't afford...or don't want...to buy an ATSC capable television...

and in continuation of my above statement:

...but still wish to watch OTA television programming on their NTSC television sets after February 2009...

gerhard911

07-12-08, 07:45 PM

I may be a unique case but I am putting one of these CECBs on my HD (ready) Sammy DLP to replace the PIP functionality of it's internal NTSC tuner.

Although I have TW HD cable service (Component) and an ATSC tuner equipped HTPC (DVI) connected to this set, neither can be used for the secondary Picture In Picture source.

I am also getting another for the analog XBR in the bedroom because local channels on analog cable look like cr@p. After the coupon program ends I expect the prices to plummet and I may pick up a couple more for other analog sets in a guest bedroom and the garage.

Nitewatchman

07-12-08, 09:25 PM

Excellent examples gerhard911. While the obvious primary intention of the CECB program involves the availability of relatively inexpensive DTV receivers for use with sets which are capable of only NTSC analog OTA reception, The point is, there are certianly other useful applications for them as well.

If the prices do "plummet" at some point, I could make use of a few more inexpensive DTV receivers as well. I do wonder how long standalone OTA DTV (HD or no) STB's will be available past analog shut off. I'm thinking it's going to be a lot like the "UHF tuners" of the 60's. It will also be interesting to see what happens with much talked about upcoming "mobile DTV" additions to ATSC, how many/what stations implement Mobile DTV services, and what sort of reception devices are available/or which will support the mobile DTV streams ....

Anyhow, As a source for OTA for the PIP for one of my HDTV sets which sounds like it works like yours would be useful in my case as well.

I also have HTPC(used as OTA HD-DVR among other things) with ATSC capture card in it hooked to HD display as well, the capture card also has analog composite and S-video (and analog audio) inputs as well as a NTSC tuner. So, another example would be a CECB could be used as a "second" (albeit SD) DTV tuner with it, hooked up via the composite/S-video inputs (or the RF input on the NTSC tuner for that matter). The way it works I could capture a HD program (the entire TS from a DTV station and all it's multicast services for that matter) via ATSC, catpure a Analog NTSC source via the tuner for simultanous capture, or via the S-video or Composite inputs from the CECB ....

Other examples I can think of where they might be useful other than with "old analog-only sets", would be for use with VCR (or DVD recorder w/o internal ATSC tuner, or line input on a DVR w/o a DTV tunerr), use with a "HD ready" set if your OTA HD STB quits working, or you drop your cable/sat subscription at some point after analog shut off but can't "find" a OTA HD STB(or if your cable/sat goes out during bad weather on the "HD-ready"set), or if you move and are "temporarily" without cable or satellite, or if its a HD ready set, and you don't want to pay "more" for a OTA HD STB(If you can find one).

Unlike in other countries who have DTV and have had inexpensive OTA DTV receivers available to users for quite some time, In the U.S., even though we've had OTA DTV/HD stations on air for over 10 years, Other than a couple of PC tuner cards, and beginning a little over a year ago involving a few DVD recorders with ATSC receivers in them ---- before the CECB boxes, there WERE NO external OTA DTV receivers available to consumers other than relatively few, relatively expensive OTA HD STB's and (certianly less expensive) ATSC capture cards for PC's -- and there are STILL relatively few OTA HD STB's, and it seems likely that will continue to be the case ...

So, now that we do have them (for however long) it seems to me it only makes sense that users will find all sorts of uses for the things ....

gerhard911

07-12-08, 09:53 PM

I'm thinking it's going to be a lot like the "UHF tuners" of the 60's.

Dang, just how old are you :D

I was just a young whipper snapper when commercial UHF became common and I thought I was a cranky old codger ;)

UHF was also the analogy I used to explain DTV to my degreed, electrical engineer Dad. He is 88 and although still pretty sharp, the DTV message has not made the impact it should have at this point. My parents watch a fair amount of PBS and I think they have done the best job of getting the DTV conversion message out.

It is no wonder the technology challenged average Joe has no clue.

pjpjpjpj

07-13-08, 11:11 AM

Let's all "cross our fingers" that 770KW ERP is approved - no more CW in SD on 12.2 --- bye bye WKRC --- hello, WBDT HD!
But then I'd miss "Dance Party Friday"! :D

(if you don't know, don't ask)

jim tressler

07-13-08, 10:33 PM

lol.. dance party friday.. bob kicked that guys ass on the big dance off!!

Nitewatchman

07-14-08, 02:00 PM

Dang, just how old are you :D

I wasn't around quite yet for the all channel act, but when I was a kid in the 70's, for a time we had a storage building full of TV's with only VHF tuners in them --my uncle had a TV repair shop, had moved to another state and we had a building ... Also recall the Blonder-Tongue UHF tuners on sale at flea markets ...

I also remember in the early~mid 70's, while we did have one color set(probably 13~15" screen size), except for a older, larger Color admiral set we managed to get working for a couple weeks, the largest set we had was a B&W Zenith, probably from around or just before the all channel act ... I don't recall however whether or not it had a UHF tuner in it ....

As a Kid, I also occasionally had the great fun of having Dad bring home old TV's, and if we didn't fix them, I'd get to take it apart .... some of those were VHF only ....

fgrogan

07-15-08, 12:36 PM

Just wanted to give everyone an update on my configuration and install of my home antenna network. See http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14070800#post14070800 for the background.

I purchased a CM 3016 antenna from Solidsignal.com a few weeks ago and mounted it in my garage attic. I had originally planned to use the main house attic space (and had pre-wired it for this reason when building the house), but the truss work was too restrictive and I did not have much freedom to move an antenna around. Not to mention its hard to access, very very hot and covered in blown in insulation. nasty!

So, I looked for an antenna that would fit in the truss work of the attic space over the garage. We have a pull down stairs/ladder that can be used to get up there and there is a decent amount of open space in the middle and the main pre-fab truss work is on both ends. I first put down some additional flooring in the pre-fab truss work areas so it was easier to work and gave me more finished storage space and then measured what the largest antenna that would fit in between the trusses at the one end of the garage.

The CM 3016 fit perfectly in the space low to the floor and can almost completely rotate if needed. I also purchased a CM 3078 universal mount as well as a 5 ft mast (CM1805). I mounted a horizontal 2x4 across the trusses and then hung the pole straight down with the CM 3016 on the end. I originally wanted to be able to pick up FM radio as well as UHF/VHF HDTV so I went with a combo antenna to start with, but the new 706x series of channel 7+ are promising from a size perspective, but they lack FM and I didn't want to create more complexity than I already had going for right now. Maybe a phase 2 and I can reuse the CM3016 and point it toward Dayton.

I purchased a spool of RG6 QS and reviewed the video tape I had made of my original low voltage wiring project when we built the house 5 years ago (12,000 ft of various LV wiring!!!). I found the locations where the wiring was already running to/from the garage attic and realized I could easily drop more wire and get access to my basement home run location with not much effort. I was planning to try to fish the wire, but I took the simple approach and cut an access hole at the bottom of the stud cavity since its in the garage and I can easily patch or use a access door cover for it. I was able to easily drop a run of RG6 right to my access hole and then feed it into my basement and pull to my home run location where everything else terminates.

I made sure the CM 3016 was aimed at 235 degrees based on my tvfool plot (see link and attachment), terminated the RG6 and hooked the antenna up.
I toned my wiring running from my HR location to my family room HDTV setup and found 2 runs of RG6 for OTA TV as well as a separate run for FM. I had also purchased a CA8800 FM Band separator/coupler (thanks Nightwatchman!) and after terminating the HR end of the antenna cable as well as my two feeder lines, I installed the CA8800 splitting the FM from the TV and each getting a dedicated run to the home theater in the family room.

Phase 1a will be to install the final piece of equipment I purchased from SS, the CM3418 distribution amp. I ultimately want to "serve up" the OTA signal all over the house for existing SD and HD TV's. I also expected the signal strength to be in need of a boost, but as you will read below, no issues there. I took an old (25 year old) Sony 13" color SDTV and hooked it up to the end of the OTA antenna before connecting all of the cable to the CA8800 and the picture was great on the analog channels!

So after hooking up the CA8800 I went back upstairs and connected one RG6 to the FM input on my Sony 5300ES AVR and the other RG to the input on the AM21 OTA box. I reset the local OTA info (was using rabbit ears, no bow tie) and reran the OTA config. I only selected the 45140 zip for the Cincinnati locals in the config. Once it completed, I tried the signal strength meter on the AM21. 100% signal strength on all locals!!!!!!!! Except for WSTR which was at 75% last night. Hows that for an attic antenna!!!

THanks to everyone on the forum who directly helped me get started with my OTA project as well as who has posted in the past that I've learned from. I can take pics if that will help, just tell me what you want to see.

Questions:

None of the Lexington, KY stations that the AM21 put in the guide had any level of signal strength so I removed them from the guide listing. Anyone have any luck pulling them in? there seemed to be some interesting HD content in the guide.

What do you think the effect will be of adding in the CM3418 distribution amp? Will it overload the current TV signal? I want to be able to server from 4-8 TV's at some point, but maintain signal quality too. I was shocked to see how strong the signal strength was for all of the locals. Thoughts, comments?

Given the signal strength on the Cincinnati locals, I don't see why the Dayton locals would not come in with the proper antenna and/or orientation. I guess it rotor vs. additional antenna(s) with more splitting/combining. Suggestions?

Do you think 235 degrees is the optimun direction for the current CM3016? I don't think I'd get any addtional channels, but just curious.

jim tressler

07-15-08, 12:40 PM

awesome - fgrogan. wstr will always be lower as they are several degrees off from the line of the rest... remember, the meter on a tv is not a true representation of the signal - but at 100% that's close enough for government work!

JunkyardDogg

07-21-08, 06:47 PM

Here's something I noticed over the weekend, WCPO is center cutting the HD feed and using that for the analog signal. I discovered this by looking at the logo placements when compared to WKEF. I knew they were doing this for local material (News), but not for national programing.

After looking at all the stations, WCPO and WLWT seemed to be the most prepared for utilizing their digital station. Both have HD screen graphics, while WXIX and WKRC have to default to the analog feed during weather advisories. I hope this changes comes 2/09.

jim tressler

07-21-08, 09:01 PM

wcpo has been doing that for the national feeds for a while..

pjpjpjpj

07-21-08, 10:55 PM

Isn't that how they all do it? It seems like most of the HD programming that you see on any of the major networks has all of the graphics inset from the right or left, such that if you chopped it off to make it 4:3, they would fall properly in a corner. I assumed that was because they were just chopping off the sides for the 4:3 analog broadcast, meaning non-widescreen TVs were simply missing stuff.

terryfoster

07-22-08, 06:37 AM

Well, initially the HD feeds had some of the graphics and logos fall outside of the 4:3 area because they were producing two feeds and two sets of graphics. Now the networks are producing one HD feed and one set of graphics and then generating the SD feed from that using the center cut method.

The most obvious case I saw was The Sound of Music on ABC. It became painfully obvious that they weren't using a pan and scan source for the SD channel when there would be whole scenes with dialog coming from off the screen to another character off the screen. I also noticed this with the Shrek Christmas Special when the opening credits were constantly cut off.

jimp2244

07-22-08, 08:38 AM

Now the networks are producing one HD feed and one set of graphics and then generating the SD feed from that using the center cut method.

I believe all of the major broadcast networks still provide two feeds (CBS has announced plans to drop the analog feed fairly soon). All stations do need to ensure things are 4:3 safe, even though they will be dropping their 4:3 broadcasts in February. The reason for this is because OTA viewers with converter boxes may opt for center cut or "cropped" mode instead of letter box when watching the 16:9 channels. Additionally, cable companies will be providing analog feeds of the channels for several more years, and they are responsible for accomplishing this (not the broadcaster). Most cable companies will also opt to center cut, although I don't believe there is any mandate telling them how they must do it, so some may opt for letterbox route as well.

NBC and its affiliates, especially Hearst-Argyle owned stations such as WLWT, are big supporters of AFD (Active Format Descriptor). AFD allows the broadcaster to embed metadata in the stream that tells the receiving device how to properly format the image. So, for example, The Sound of Music could be described as 16:9 and then letterboxed on 4:3 sets while 16:9 sets would have their screen filled. During a 4:3 commercial the AFD would change to 4:3, causing the 4:3 set to crop and zoom so that they get a full 4:3 image instead of a windowboxed "postage stamp" image, and the 16:9 set to pillar box to display the full 4:3 image.

WLWT from what I have heard is ensuring that all new equipment going in the chain supports AFD. Unfortunately not many receivers support AFD at this time so broadcasters can't rely on AFD to display their broadcasts properly, which is why they are trying to make everything 4:3 safe. Obviously there will be some growing pains and issues as noted with the Shrek credits being cut off.

terryfoster

07-23-08, 06:53 AM

^^^ I didn't mean the networks weren't transmitting two feeds to the affiliates, it just seems clear that they're not "producing" a specific 4:3 SD feed anymore (as seen in the examples I provided in my previous post not to mention the movement of the station logos).

I should have been clearer that my use of "producing" meant that the networks either had a parallel process to generate the HD and SD feeds or one process to generate the HD feed that would be converted for the SD feed. So in the parallel process method, they would take a HD and SD video source, add graphics to each of these sources and transmit each of these produced feeds to the affiliates. I envision the one process method as taking a HD source, adding graphics, transmitting that produced HD feed to the affiliate, modifying that feed to work with a SD 4:3 TV (using center cut or letter boxing) and transmitting that as the SD feed. This way they've simplified their production process by eliminating the redundancy, the downside being that the 16:9 video hasn't always been 4:3 friendly.

I did forget to mention the letter box method that NBC uses, but that still means they use one set of graphics and one feed, but they take that feed and letterbox it for SD. IIRC NBC had graphics on the letter boxing and now all of the graphics fall within the picture and off of the letter boxing.

pjpjpjpj

07-23-08, 11:38 AM

Funny that you guys mention the Shrek Christmas Special (should have been called "Holiday" special for the way they blatently avoided the real meaning of Christmas, but that's another thread... :mad:)

That was before I got my first HDTV, and it was the first television program that I can recall that was sent in 16:9 and caused 4:3 sets to miss things. I actually recall saying "wait a minute!", stopping our Tivo, backing it up, and showing my wife. I was pretty mad at the time - I thought it was pretty presumptuous for them, in December of 2007, to already be broadcasting content that effectively "punished" people for not having widescreen televisions.

Needless to say, between the two things mentioned above, I was not very pleased with the Shrek Christmas Special.

Since then, even on our old 4:3 set, I have not noticed any other content that did that (chopped off text or speaking characters)... though I did not watch Sound of Music...

Of course, I conveniently added that to my list of reasons to give my wife for why we needed to get an HDTV. ;) :p

jkeane

07-24-08, 09:19 PM

Bubster

07-25-08, 10:12 PM

OK, I give. What is AMCSDV? I even googled it and the ONLY hit was your post!

jim tressler

07-25-08, 10:32 PM

sdv is switched digital video and is another way to conserve bandwidth for hd by only sending the channel you are watching (or something like that) - amcsdv sounds like american movie classics on switched digital video

edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched_video

Splicer010

07-25-08, 11:22 PM

AMCSDV=American Movie Classic Switched Digital Video...

freetelevision

07-27-08, 06:09 PM

I'm considering purchasing an outdoor antenna, but I am a bit confused with what TV Fool has been telling me and what I have been picking up with an indoor antenna. When it comes to Dayton, I have gotten 4 stations to come in stable everyday and signal drop outs are rare except for WKEF which has the screen freeze sometimes in the afternoons when the wind blows or when food is cooking in the microwave. I've gotten WDTN and I've gotten WHIO, WRGT, and WKEF with sweet spots. However, I am curious why I have not gotten WPTD at all. There is a signal on my converter box on channel 58 but I have not been able to tune it in once. Could it be because there are a lot of trees and bushes around my house? If so, how I am receiving the other three channels through the trees and bushes?

I am also considering getting an outdoor antenna in order to try to pick up Lexington and Louisville. A one of my dad's coworkers who lives about 10 miles closer to Lexington than I do is able to get Lexington stations with rabbit ears. However, at this point, everything that I have been picking up has either been to the North or to the East of where I live.

I have been getting WWHO-DT channel 46, virtual channel 53.1 off and on the past two weeks out of Chillicothe, Ohio. It's 90 miles away. On 3 nights it was stable enough where I could watch shows on it with very little signal drop off.

This past week I have gotten two stations that are 150 miles away. Last Thursday, I got a signal on DT-40. I thought was getting WTVQ out of Lexington but when I tuned it in for a few seconds it turned out to be WFWA virtual channel 39 out of Fort Wayne, Indiana. Why was I able to get Fort Wayne which was 150 miles away and not Lexington which is only 65 miles away? TV Fool says the signal that I get out of Lexington is not supposed to be tropospheric scatter and one of my dad's coworkers is getting Lexington on a regular basis.

Finally, last night I got a weak signal on on DT-23. I never got the signal to come in strong enough to get anything on the screen but my converter box retrieved the call letters WSAZ which turned out to be Huntington, West Virginia (132 miles away.)

I'm aware that the signals that I am receiving are tropospheric scatter but I am wandering if the area that I live in just gets stations better from the North and East rather than the South and West.

What I am interested in knowing is whether or not I would be wasting my money purchasing an outdoor antenna in order to try to get Lexington and Louisville?

If an outdoor antenna can pickup those cities, is there a specific height that would be best in order to tune in those stations?

I am considering purchasing either the Wineguard 8200 or the Antennas Direct 91XG.

P.S. I am also curious if it possible to pickup 8 WISH-TV, DT-9 out of Indianapolis with the Wineguard 8200 since it is a VHF signal and the Wineguard 8200 claims to be able to pickup VHF signals over 100 miles away.

robmadden1

07-28-08, 09:31 AM

54 is blank just a black screen analog and digital side 54.1 - .4. This was at 9:30am I thought it was my digital singnal until I checked the analog side.

mlbUC

07-28-08, 09:34 AM

robmadden1

07-28-08, 09:40 AM

freetelevision you wont ever get 9 out of Indy since you get wcpo.

pjpjpjpj

07-28-08, 09:59 AM

freetelevision you wont ever get 9 out of Indy since you get wcpo.
Until next February when WCPO is only occupying channel 10...

(granted, I did not go look to see what Indy's 9 might be switching to....)

freetelevision

07-28-08, 11:05 AM

There is good tropospheric scatter this morning. Right now I have digital channel 21 WBNS (virtual channel 10.1) from Columbus, WWHO channel 46 (virtual channel 53.1) from Chillocothe, Ohio and digital channel 32 WNDY (virtual channel 23.1) Marion, Indiana near Indianapolis.

cadet502

07-28-08, 12:32 PM

Who around here has the D* HD locals? How do they look? I'm ordering D* in Dayton, but may make a "move" to Cincinnati in order to get the Cincy locals over the satellite and the Dayton locals over the air.

I have Cincinnati locals both from Directv and OTA. I run my 60" RP-LCD at 1080i all the time, and I really can't tell much difference from the Sat signal vs OTA through the HR-20 DVR. Remember locals are on a spot beam, so you may have a lower signal to start with, and rain fade happens much more quickly on the MPEG4s.

freetelevision

07-28-08, 01:09 PM

I picked up the following stations:

WWHO (digital channel 46) - virtual channel 53 Chillicothe, Ohio - 90 miles

WTTE (digital channel 36) - virtual channel 28 Columbus, Ohio - 108 miles

WNDY (digital channel 32) - virtual channel 23 Marion, Indiana - 108 miles

WCMH (digital channel 14) - virtual channel 4 Columbus, Ohio - 109 miles
-Even though analog channel 14 WPTO is only 38 miles from where I live I still got this digital channel. I think that my converter box filters out analog channels. On digital channel 9 there is no signal at all on my converter box which is why I am wondering if it is still possible to pickup digital channel 9 WISH-TV out of Indianapolis even before analog channel 9 goes off the air in February.

WBNS (digital channel 21) - virtual channel 10 Columbus, Ohio - 109 miles

WOUB (digital channel 27) - virtual channel 20 Athens, Ohio - 133 miles.

luebster

07-28-08, 02:28 PM

Sorry if this has been detailed somewhere already, but I've been trying to find a listing of clear QAM channels from TW Hamilton. Of course, good luck finding anything on their website.

I just dropped DirecTV and have been using OTA for locals very successfully since 2004. I've seen some TW locations with quite an impressive QAM lineup (http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?p=204862&postcount=45), so I'm considering ordering up TW if they send over something more than what I'm getting OTA, which is just about everything you'd expect.

Anyone have a list of TW Hamilton QAM channels? (I believe I'd actually be on the old Adelphia system, if that helps)

mlbUC

07-28-08, 02:40 PM

Outside of locals I doubt TWC has anything else in clear on QAM. Here in Dayton the best I could get was the local HDs and subchannels from WHIO, WRGT, and WKEF.

Splicer010

07-28-08, 02:43 PM

I would NOT order TW for 'free' QAM channels...Sounds like you get more OTA already...Especially if you get Dayton channels as well...

luebster

07-28-08, 02:52 PM

Thanks for the quick replies! I don't get the Dayton's too well...just running some RatShack indoor rabbits in my attic, but I might throw something on the roof in place of the D* dish :). Sounds like I'm going OTA-only cold turkey!

Splicer010

07-28-08, 02:59 PM

If you have roadrunner you get the QAM channels already...Hook up your QAM tuner...:)

If not then stick with OTA...I only use QAM because I already have RR and it is more convienent tha the OTA signals with the small antenna I have to use...

luebster

07-28-08, 03:07 PM

^^^
Heh, funny you say that. I was planning on canceling Zoomtown (only 2Mbps for me, boo) in favor of RR turbo. So you're saying I can get QAM with just RR, and don't need the actual cable service?

gerhard911

07-28-08, 03:49 PM

Reportedly, the digital service TW will hook you up to for RoadRunner will also carry the digital cable channels. Without actually subscribing to a cable TV package you can tune those QAM channels carried in the clear.

For me (TW Cincinnati) when I initially got a QAM capable tuner, TW was sending the locals (5,9,12,19,48,54) plus TNT-HD and Discovery HD Theater in the clear.

When they added ESPN2-HD to the service I lost TNT-HD & D-HDT. They either went encrypted or to switched digital video. Like you, I have seen the postings touting dozens of clear QAM channels on other TW systems, but not here.

They did recently add ThinkTV (16) to the other locals I listed.

robmadden1

07-29-08, 01:34 AM

WCET gone 24hr 7 days a week? I see at 1:33am a test patter on 48.1 but cet world is normal on 48.2 with programming.

Bubster

07-29-08, 10:32 AM

jimp2244

07-29-08, 10:41 AM

TW Fairfield here, only QAM hd channels are the locals.

On a related note, imagine my shock that Ch64 HD has shown several actual HD movies in the last 2 weeks. They sucked, but I did notice while channel surfing.

Were they MyNet HD movies (they've shown HD movies on My64 for quite some time now) or did they originate from WSTR?

jimp2244

07-29-08, 10:58 AM

WKRC did a short story on "getting the right antenna" for DTV. Unfortunately it leaves a bit to be desired and has several bits of incorrect information. At least they're working on public awareness though...

http://www.local12.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=8577b671-d4d9-444d-a898-441198c27bbe

(click the video link)

ScottA

07-29-08, 11:09 AM

^^^
Heh, funny you say that. I was planning on canceling Zoomtown (only 2Mbps for me, boo) in favor of RR turbo. So you're saying I can get QAM with just RR, and don't need the actual cable service?

A few years ago I dropped TW cable TV but kept RoadRunner (using the Earthlink ISP option). TW set something on the outside utility case that keeps all TV signals from entering the house. No QAM at all.

// ScottA

Splicer010

07-29-08, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by luebster
^^^
Heh, funny you say that. I was planning on canceling Zoomtown (only 2Mbps for me, boo) in favor of RR turbo. So you're saying I can get QAM with just RR, and don't need the actual cable service?

Absolutely...:)

Bubster

07-29-08, 10:12 PM

Were they MyNet HD movies (they've shown HD movies on My64 for quite some time now) or did they originate from WSTR?

No idea, but it is the first time ever I have seen them broadcast HD content.

DarkwingDuck

07-30-08, 12:54 AM

I was programming my TWC dvr tonight for Mad Men on Sunday and noticed the option for AMCSDV on channel 1800. Their 800 customer service number comes up on the screen on that channel. When I called, the customer service rep knew nothing about this. It seems SDV is here for us...does anyone know if these will be HD?

I was goofing off and there are other SDV channels in the 1800 block like HSN, ESPN, FBN and Style but they all say call customer service.

jkeane

07-31-08, 10:59 AM

I wrote TWC asking about SDV roll out and this is the response I received:

CHANGE TO CABLECARD LINEUP DUE TO SDV: We have sent a letter to approximately 1,700 CableCARD customers in Southwest Ohio. The purpose of the letter is to notify them of how our planned deployment of Switched Digital Video (SDV) may affect their CableCARD channel lineup. Effective August 15, 2008, certain channels will no longer be available to CableCARD customers. Please note, the channels affected are the lower viewer-ship channels and many of the 1,700 customers receiving the letter may not currently subscribe to packages that contain these channels. In addition, the implementation of SDV is critical to adding valuable programming, such as additional HD channels, for all of our customers in the future.

tbenson81

07-31-08, 10:10 PM

Is it just me or is WKRC having some serious audio issues over the past few days. There is a distinct crackling in the audio that occurs during both SD and HD programming. Its not my equipment because it occurs on tv speakers and surround sound system. Anyone else noticing this? Could this be a Time Warner problem or is it the channel? Thanks!

Tony

Splicer010

08-01-08, 12:54 AM

No issue with WKRC audio from TW here...

tbenson81

08-01-08, 08:19 AM

Thanks Splicer.....not sure what it could be then. All other channels seem to be fine.

I watched again this morning and its definitely distracting and noticeable to the trained ear. The higher the volume the worse it gets.

Tony

Splicer010

08-11-08, 08:04 PM

Too funny...KRC engineers are scrambling to figure out the HD vertical line issue...GO BENGALS!!! :D

Splicer010

08-11-08, 08:07 PM

Fixed!!! But MAJOR audio level lowering occured also...

kyaj2

08-11-08, 08:07 PM

I was just trying to figure that out. I've seen it *attempt* to flip over to the HD signal three times already, and it would be HILARIOUS if it weren't so annoying!

As I'm writing this, they get it right. This could be entertaining even without a football game being on!

spikor

08-11-08, 10:01 PM

Just wondering out there since this is the Cincinnati Discussion room does anyone know IF or when Cincinnati will show up in HD on Dish Network. Right now they are Analog not Digital because no SubChannels available. They show Cities that will be launched before end of the year No Cincinnati that I see unless I overlooked Cincinnati maybe..... Cincinnati will be launched in 2009 before Analog Switched off. Cities in the DMA Rankings {Higher} ( Towards 1 ) before Cincinnati on the list are on there and after ( Lower in Rankings on the listing) are on there. I wonder why they Jump around? Of course someone will answer that anyways eventhough that is not my main question and I will be poked at and have everything quoted here and there.My main question any Idea when Cincinnati be launched? Or estimate when Cincinnati be launched?

ScottA

08-12-08, 09:22 AM

Just wondering out there since this is the Cincinnati Discussion room does anyone know IF or when Cincinnati will show up in HD on Dish Network.

This has been covered a few times in this topic but the short answer is that there are no announced plans for Dish to include Cincinnati locals in HD. The channels (or parent companies) want Dish to carry their sub-channels as well as the main network feed. Dish only wants the networks. Cincinnati has been on the schedule a few times but was bumped when no agreement could be reached.

// Scott A

Bill R (# 2)

08-12-08, 11:01 AM

This has been covered a few times in this topic but the short answer is that there are no announced plans for Dish to include Cincinnati locals in HD. The channels (or parent companies) want Dish to carry their sub-channels as well as the main network feed. Dish only wants the networks. Cincinnati has been on the schedule a few times but was bumped when no agreement could be reached.

// Scott A

And with the Newport Group now owning WKRC it is even less likely that DISH will be carrying the Cincinnati stations in HD. The can't even come to an agreement with them to carry their CW feed. Newport is playing hard ball with DISH Network and has lost carriage of some of their stations (at least on a temporary basis) on the DISH Network in several markets. As Scott mentions sub-channels are the "problem".

The solution for me is a good outdoor antenna and a DISH Network ViP722 receiver. That way I get the local HD station (all of them and the SD sub-channels) and don't have to depend on DISH Network or DirecTV and their asinine policy of carrying only the main networks.

blbrodbeck

08-12-08, 08:29 PM

The Reds are supposed to be in HD tonight. TWC ch. 968 has a blank screen though.

jdhughes63

08-17-08, 01:02 PM

Splicer010

08-17-08, 01:25 PM

I'm good with WLWT-DT HD coverage...;)

Bubster

08-17-08, 04:06 PM

TW-904 is supposed to be USA-HD when the Olympics are on USA-SD on Channel 33.
Today with the Olympics on USA-SD the USA-HD TW channel has a blank screen.

Oh Well.

TW 972 & TW 904 bothe have HD Olypic coverage today

There is a USA-HD channel on TW Cincy? What channel? Not that I will ever watch it but my elderly mother might...

microbob

08-17-08, 08:08 PM

WKRC
Good Job on getting the Bengals preseason game in HD. It looks great!!

Splicer010

08-17-08, 08:45 PM

WKRC
Good Job on getting the Bengals preseason game in HD. It looks great!!

Agreed!!!:D

jdhughes63

08-17-08, 09:52 PM

"There is a USA-HD channel on TW Cincy? What channel? Not that I will ever watch it but my elderly mother might..."

Yes. Only during the Olympics and only while USA channel is showing the Olympics.
It is on TW904. When USA (TW33) goes to regular programming then TW904 goes blank and apparently they don't always get it back on.

Splicer010

08-17-08, 09:56 PM

WKRC
Good Job on getting the Bengals preseason game in HD. It looks great!!

PQ is superb...Audio levels between different commercials and the game itself is ridiculously out of sync with each other...Especially that damn Kroger commercial that sounds like it is 10db hot compared to the Buffalo Wild Wings commercial...No excuse for the wide variances...:mad:

fgrogan

08-18-08, 09:00 AM

Guys

Just a small update on my config:

I did install the CM3418 distribution amp and its working great for the 4 TV's I have located around the house. I have a mix of SD and HD sets in use and they all pick up the OTA locals very well. On the SD side, even some of the Dayton stations come in it seems. For storms, rain fade, backup, this will be a great compliment for my DirecTV service. I have been watching the Olympics on the OTA 5-1 NBC feed and its looked great.

Questions:

None of the Lexington, KY stations that the AM21 put in the guide had any level of signal strength so I removed them from the guide listing. Anyone have any luck pulling them in? there seemed to be some interesting HD content in the guide.

I am getting a little bit of hiss in the background of some of the FM stations. I have not put a lot of time into diagnosing this yet, but I am assuming since the TV portion of the antenna is directional, so is the FM? If so, that explains why some stations are stronger than others vs. in the car, etc.

I am thinking of putting up a dedicated FM antenna in my attic so I get all of my available channels without the hiss. Any suggestions? Also, do you recommend combining the FM signal onto the one run of RG6 I have for the OTA TV antenna or pull a second run of RG6? If I want to serve the FM signal to multiple receivers much like I am doing with the CM3418 for OTA TV, what type of splitter/distribution amp do you suggest? I assume I will need to put a FM trap on the line from the OTA TV antenna if I put up a dedicated FM antenna?

Nitewatchman

08-18-08, 10:11 PM

None of the Lexington, KY stations that the AM21 put in the guide had any level of signal strength so I removed them from the guide listing.

Generally speaking, even if you're "on a hill" you'd likely need to be at least as Far South as N KY and use an outdoor antenna to acheive consistant, reliable reception of Lexington FM/TV Stations. Biggest potential exceptions being WBUL 98.1 and perhaps WDKY-DT 4 to some extent involving the lower VHF frequencies involved for them(longer wavelengths can bend a little more around curvature of earth), and the exceptionally high powered WBUL (100KW).

If you go to www.tvfool.com and punch in your location --- For the most part, for DTV, signals listed below about -110~115 dBm or are indicated as "tropo" are likely to be too weak to receive reliably and consistantly even with the best of outdoor antenna setups, and for the most part signals listed below about -90~ -95dBm will usually be difficult or impossible to receive adequetely with antenna indoors.

Anyone have any luck pulling them[Lexington stations] in?

I can pretty much receive WBUL-FM at any time, occasionally with some fading, in fact most of the time I can receive it off a whip antenna on a portable Grundig AM/FM/HF receiver sitting next to a South Facing 2nd Story window ....

Otherwise, for other Lexington stations I get them only via Tropo scatter, using tower mounted outdoor hi-gain directional receive antenna. As for the Central KY DT's, I see WDKY-DT 4 and WUPX-DT 21 Most often. For obvious reasons, I haven't seen WLEX-DT 39 since WKOI-DT 39 (12 Miles) increased power/TX antenna height ...

I am getting a little bit of hiss in the background of some of the FM stations.

It might give us a better idea concerning what may be going on if we knew Which ones are you getting the "hiss* on ? Also, I'm assuming it the case you currently have the CA-8800 before the distribution amp, using it as a seperator LIke this ? :

Antenna ---> CA 8800 TV/FM seperator

CA8800 TV output port --->> CM3418 Amp ---->> To TV's/DTV receivers

CA8800 FM output Port ---->>to FM receiver(s)

Note: Just a thought, You might want to answer Via PM, as FM reception discussion might be getting a Bit OT here ... then again, it may not be as well, there is a "HD radio" section (you won't hear "hiss" on those, though) on the forum ;) ...

I am assuming since the TV portion of the antenna is directional, so is the FM?

Yes, however, usually a typical small~Medium size VHF/FM/UHF antenna will have considerably less directivity on VHF(especially Lo-VHF 2~6) and FM vs. UHF. So, Unless the signals are fairly weak, or you're trying to receive weaker adjacent "channel" stations off the back with strong adjacent signals present in direction antenna is aimed, for the most part it should typically work fairly well for FM reception off back side of antenna, or from as much as 45~60 degrees or so difference from where antenna is aimed .... Thankfully, for the most part Multipath isn't a problem issue for analog or digital (IBOC or "HD radio") FM radio as it is with TV for analog NTSC or for DTV/the receivers(which have gotten better in this regard) for DTV ATSC(with 8VSB) ...

If so, that explains why some stations are stronger than others vs. in the car, etc.

Certianly could be a big part of the problem depending upon which stations you're getting the "hiss" on + which way the antenna is aimed, but Several other issues may also be involved.

Depending on which stations you're getting the "hiss" on, That the Car antenna is likely outdoors vs. the antenna in the Attic being indoors is potentially the biggest issue involved.

Another possibility is any given FM tuner vs a Car radio can easily be overloaded by Strong signals, and this may cause a "hiss" or garbled sounding "stuff" on weaker stations on some frequencies -- especially on stations antenna isn't aimed towards when antenna is aimed towards or nearly towards the stronger stations, or a very strong station is nearby in just about any direction, but especially off front or back of antenna. Of course, that sort of "overload issue" is going to be exacberated if an amplifier is added.

Also, unless it's in the windshield, it's also likely your car radio antenna is vertically polarized(V POL), whearas the TV/FM antenna in your attic should be Horizontally polarized(H POL). FM stations usually transmit both V POL and H POL, but the amount of signal transmitted H POL vs. V POL often is different.

Other possibilities as well, which I'm probably not thinking of at the moment ...

I am thinking of putting up a dedicated FM antenna in my attic so I get all of my available channels without the hiss. Any suggestions?

Depends upon what is causing the "hiss" on some stations, and which stations are involved. A "less directional" antenna would offer less gain as well. A "better" FM antenna(more gain, presumably - in direction it's aimed) would involve increased directivity as well so without knowing more about which stations are involved I really can't suggest anything at this point that may be "better" ...

A 1/2 wavelength dipole ("rabbit ears" or similar - You can make about the best sort of antenna of this sort yourself with a bit of Twinlead) would offer less directivity(it's bi-directional, mainly), but also provides less gain(in direction it's aimed) than say the antenna you're currently using --- On the + side it would be easier to move around in attic to find the best "spots" than the larger antenna and given that it would be "smaller" would be less effected by nearby objects(nearby objects become coupled to antenna and effect it's performance) .... A V POL 1/4 wavelength whip (such as car antenna or about a 2 1/2 ft long piece of wire), is really poor performer signal "gain" wise and will provide even less "signal" than "rabbit ears" but is truly "omnidirectional" if mounted "vertically" .....

So, If this is a "antenna" issue and not some sort of "overload" or connection "problem" issue, My best suggestion would probably be to Get the antenna outside, and add rotor if necessary/desired. If you get your current antenna outside, chances are probably very good you would achieve good reception of most the Cincinnati and Dayton area FM stations, with either Cincinnati or Dayton being off the "back side" of the antenna.

And, even an omnidirectional V POL car radio antenna mounted outdoors is likely to provide better FM reception than any antenna mounted indoors.

For FM or TV, for weaker signals (LP's, more distant stations, etc), in multiple directions though, there's no "magic" substitute for a high gain, directional antenna with rotor mounted outdoors ....

Also, do you recommend combining the FM signal onto the one run of RG6 I have for the OTA TV antenna or pull a second run of RG6?

Depends ... I'll get into this in more detail farther below, but the best(but more expensive) solution might be to use lossless multicouplers instead of amps or splitters, and keep FM and TV on the same run, regardless of whether or not you are using seperate TV/FM antennas. Otherwise, It's probably the case that for your application, 2nd Run of RG6 to your FM receivers may be the best option, whether or not you're using your current antenna for both FM/TV and the CA-8800 as a seperator before the CM3418, or seperate TV/FM antennas.

If For example you wanted to use the CA-8800 as a FM/TV antenna combiner BEFORE a distribution amp, or merely use your current antenna and distribute FM signals from it via the same "path" as the TV signals --- which would be the "simplest" and least expensive option, of course the FM signals are going to be amplified along with the TV signals. Which is Usually not a good idea(for the TV/DTV or FM receivers), even with indoor antenna especially if you are relatively close to strong FM stations, which you are.

But, You *could* try it with your current equipment w/o the seperate antenna to get an idea/see how it works if you want. You have to be really careful here, as you're not necessarily going to know if intermodulation distortion ("overload" issues) created by additional amplification is causing problems, as it might not allways be evident .... But, you can tell a lot with "careful observation" by comparing what it is like without the additional amplifcaition(or amplifying TV and FM via the same amp/feedline) and checking reception of weaker FM stations (added "junk" or hiss or hearing strong nearby stations on frequencies they are not broadcasting on - this is intermodulation distortion being created by the amp or overloaded receiver front-end) --- And looking for interference on TV (diagonal lines or other added "junk" on analog TV stations, particularly weaker ones - especially VHF, or hearing FM audio on Certian analog TV channels where no nearby signals are present such as say, channel 11) ....

Like this :

Current TV/FM antenna -->> CM3418 Amp --->>> Coax feeds to different rooms

Option 1 :

One of the feeds from amp --- >>> CA-8800

CA-8800 --- TV port --> TV/DTV Receiver/splitter to seperate TV/DTV receivers'/etc.

CA 8800 FM out port --->> FM receiver

Option #2 : Use splitter instead of CA 8800 -- If overload is a problem for TV/DTV receivers in "rooms" you're not using FM receiver, you could try adding a FM trap just before the TV/DTV receiver, but this isn't going to get rid of intermodulation distortion created if CM3418 is overloaded .....

--------------------------

If(probably likely I'd guess) you have overload problems with the above, and still want to combine TV/FM on the coax drops to different sets/rooms/etc, This may be a decent possible option If you want to combine feeds from seperate TV/FM antennas onto same feedline :

TV antenna --->> Amp

Amp (using a single output port) -->> CA-8800 TV port
FM antenna ---->> CA-8800 FM Port : ( Update/Note: You could also ampifly FM here if necessary by putting an amp between antenna+CA-8800 FM port, but as noted farther below, it's probalby not a good idea. (end update)

CM-8800 Output(TV/FM combined) ---->>> Splitters -->> Coax feeds Output to different rooms/locations etc ...

Different rooms/locations --->> CA-8800's to split to FM/TV's .... (You could potentially use splitters here as well(and FM traps before TV/DTV receivers if necessary), but CA-8800 would offer less insertion loss and knock down FM signals via the TV output port which could otherwise potentially still be strong enough to cause some "overload" issues ....)

One possible advantage to this option is, it adds some flexibility, as If there are "rooms" (or feeds to sets/etc) you don't need FM "at", then you can send them coax feeds for TV from CM3418's other output ports (I'm assuming it has more than 1).

If I want to serve the FM signal to multiple receivers much like I am doing with the CM3418 for OTA TV, what type of splitter/distribution amp do you suggest?

First off, If you're going to do that "seperately" from what you're doing for TV, of course you would need seperate Coax runs to each FM receiver involved, otherwise you're already going to be using the CM3418 for FM as well as TV ...

Secondly, as for adding amplifcation for FM, I'd be real careful, there ... Basically speaking, FM receivers are typically quite sensitive, and can even be a bit "overloaded" so to speak without any additional amplification in even just "somewhat" strong signal areas, especially areas like ours where there are a lot of stations(not typically a problem without amplification though except sometimes for some of the weaker stations) .. Thus it is usually a bad idea to add additional amplfication for FM, even with indoor antennas .... If you were 40 miles away from the closest FM station you *might* be able to get away with it ....

Ideally though, to distrubute to multiple receivers without incurring losses from splitters, instead of using a distribution amp for FM, it would probably be better to use lossless multicouplers such as the VHF/UHF models (expensive and note it uses BNC connectors not F-connectors ) shown on this page :

http://stridsberg.com/prod01.htm

And actually, As long as you don't need additional amplification for long coax run, If you want to spend the bucks and can deal with the BNC connectors, It would probabably actually be simplest and most ideal to have FM+TV on the same Coax run(s), and just use the lossless multicoupler(s) such as the VHF/UHF models at the distrubtion point(s) instead of any amps.

If you do need/decide to add additional amplification for FM however, even though chances are good it will create some sort of "overload issues", I suppose it's somewhat possible it might not effect signals you want to receive "delitioursly enough" to cause a problem, in which case my thought is you might as well combine FM/TV signals onto the same feedline and just use whatever amp you're using for TV for FM as well ....I don't have the specs on CM3418 as it's not in my CM catalog from several years ago, but you probably defintely don't want to use something with too much gain .....

I assume I will need to put a FM trap on the line from the OTA TV antenna if I put up a dedicated FM antenna?

Depends ... If You are going to use a CA-8800 as FM/TV combiner without or before any amplification there shouldn't be any need or use to do that. If you used the CA-8800 as a combiner before Amplification, and then put a FM trap in line, you'd just be trapping out the FM signals your trying to get with the "seperate" FM antenna ....

Typically, we use FM trap to knock down FM signals to keep amp or front-end of TV/DTV receiver from overloading. FM trap is often not necessary(but sometimes still is) even in relatively strong signal areas if no additional amplification is added between antenna and TV --- But often(probably usually) IS necessary unless we don't mind watching interference laden TV(diagonal lines/etc) and almost allways is a good idea to put the FM trap BEFORE the amp for TV IF we are adding an amplifier.

This is why Many Mast-Mount amps and some distribution amps have switchable FM traps "in the amp" ... The default factory setting is FM trap "engaged" (IN) in fact for amps such as CM7777/CM7778, you must open the case if you want to flip the switch/disengage the tramp .... However, although it typically still works fine (with outdoor antennas anyway) for reception of the relatively strong signals, We usually do not want to have an FM trap in line before our FM receiver on an antenna feed it's hooked up to ....

sorry for the length, I could not figure out a way to attempt to answer your questions adequetely otherwise, and of course there are likely other options as well than what I've mentioned ..... In any case Hope some of that helps ....

mlbUC

08-19-08, 08:48 AM

Just for TBenson....

Local 12 comes to agreement with Big East and UC to show Big East game of the week on channel 12 instead of CinCW.

I wonder how many SEC games will be joined in progress when the noon game goes over? Can't wait to read those rants.

http://gobearcats.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/081808aad.html

BIG EAST and UC Strike New Partnership with WKRC-Local 12

CBS Affiliate to be home to Game of the Week packages and Bearcat Specific Programming

Aug. 18, 2008

CINCINNATI - UC Athletics, the BIG EAST, and Local 12 WKRC-TV in Cincinnati are joining forces to expand the Bearcats and BIG EAST brand in the Tri-State.

After one season on CinCW, the digital sister station of Local 12 WKRC-TV in Cincinnati, WKRC announced today it extended its partnership with the BIG EAST Conference and moved the syndicated "Football Game of the Week" package to Local 12 starting with the 2008 football season.

In addition to the BIG EAST centric programming, Local 12 and UC Athletics will also join forces to produce weekly, two-minute personality features on Bearcats student-athletes as part of their local news programming. These vignettes will focus on telling the story of the more than 500 men and women who wear the Red & Black.

"We are extremely proud to work in partnership with the BIG EAST and the University of Cincinnati, said Les Vann, Vice President and General Manager of Local 12 WKRC. "This is another cornerstone of our commitment to provide high quality, high profile local programming."

"As the BIG EAST Conference continues to cement its name as the premiere college athletics conference in the nation, it is important we continue to grow the product locally in Cincinnati," said UC Director of Athletics Mike Thomas. "With the BIG EAST package being on Local 12 WKRC, our fans across the Tri-State will have expanded comprehensive coverage of "Cincinnati's team - the Bearcats." We appreciate the work done by Les Van and all of our partners at WKRC as well as Dan Shoemaker, Bob Helmers and the staff at ESPN, and John Mason and the ISP Sports team who all came together to make this package happen."

"We are excited that that WKRC and the BIG EAST have once again partnered to bring sports fans in the Tri-State the best of BCS (Bowl Championship Series) football," said head coach Brian Kelly. "For a city like Cincinnati, it is important to give our fans, which are so loyal to the local teams, the opportunity to follow us all season long as we compete for a BIG EAST championship and a spot in a BCS bowl game."

Local 12 has earned the reputation of the "Sports Authority" for Cincinnati fans, covering the best pro, college and prep sports in the Tri-State. WKRC is the home of the NCAA men's basketball tournament, the Masters, the US Open Tennis Championships, the NFL and the Cincinnati Bengals games, including the Voice of the Bengals, Local 12 Sports Director Brad Johansen and Cincinnati's only female sports reporter, Tara Pachmayer.

Another groundbreaking element of this partnership will be a strong commitment to promoting UC women's sports and its CATWOMENDO marketing program. Pachmayer will anchor these segments beginning in September, 2008 along with Jen Dalton, who hosted Bearcats Nation on CinCW last year.

"Cincinnatians want to know their sports personalities on a personal level and we are excited that Local 12's commitment to getting the story behind the story will now also focus on UC sports" says Senior Associate Director of Athletics Mike Waddell. "The CATWOMENDO brand covers each of our 10 women's sports at UC, along with signature events like the Women's Cross-town Shootout and the upcoming State Farm/Vernon Manor Bearcat Invitational for our volleyball program. Tara has a knack for telling interesting stories about athletes and her involvement with this program will be a major boost to getting the word out about these great programs."

Other UC targeted programming will include exclusive live, local coverage of UC's basketball tip-off event in October and Bearcat Bowl III, tentatively set for Saturday, April 25 at 7 p.m.

The BIG EAST basketball broadcast schedule is still being finalized and will be announced later this fall. A local broadcast partner for that package will be announced at a later date.

In addition to the BIG EAST's partnership, the Cincinnati Department of Athletics will be working in association with Local 12 WKRC to bring UC fans enhanced Bearcats' coverage throughout the year through new and innovative packages.

BIG EAST football games will air this fall on Saturday at Noon on Local 12 beginning with Pittsburgh at Syracuse on Sept. 27, 2007. The weekly schedule will be comprised of multiple game options with a determination to be made regarding the exact game to be aired no less than 12 days prior to the broadcast date.

Other games that will be part of the potential BIG EAST football schedule on Local 12 include Rutgers at Cincinnati (Oct. 11), Cincinnati at Connecticut (Oct. 25), Cincinnati at West Virginia (Nov. 8), Pittsburgh at Cincinnati (Nov. 22). UC will be featured on this package Syracuse at Cincinnati (Nov. 29).

This is the second major television announcement from UC Athletics in the last 10 days. Last week UC announced an exclusive cable broadcast agreement with FOX Sports Net Ohio which will include a minimum of 12 men's basketball games; two women's basketball games; preseason and postseason specials for football and basketball; season-long football and basketball coaches' shows; plus an extensive schedule of BIG EAST football and basketball games. Additional future programming will be crafted as well, including the airing of classic UC games and other special event broadcasts to be determined at a later date.

ESPN Regional/BIG EAST Game of the Week
Ten BIG EAST contests will be broadcast by ESPN Regional Television as part of its BIG EAST Game of the Week package. The following dates and games were scheduled as of July 29, 2008. Many picks will be made later in the season as 12-day selections (schedule subject to change). All ERT/BIG EAST Games of the Week will start at noon Eastern.

Sat. Sept. 27 PITTSBURGH at SYRACUSE
Sat. Oct. 4 RUTGERS at WEST VIRGINIA
Sat. Oct. 11 SYRACUSE at WEST VIRGINIA or RUTGERS at CINCINNATI
Sat. Oct. 18 SYRACUSE at USF or CONNECTICUT at RUTGERS
Sat. Oct. 25 TBD
Sat. Nov. 1 LOUISVILLE at SYRACUSE or WEST VIRGINIA at CONNECTICUT
Sat. Nov. 8 TBD
Sat. Nov. 15 CONNECTICUT at SYRACUSE or RUTGERS at USF
Sat. Nov. 22 PITTSBURGH at CINCINNATI or WEST VIRGINIA at LOUISVILLE
Sat. Nov. 29 SYRACUSE at CINCINNATI

BIG EAST Games in CAPS.

fgrogan

08-19-08, 09:57 AM

Nitewatchman

Excellent reply as always. I will digest your response over the next few days and post a reply. Thanks again.

Overall I am very happy with the result of my OTA TV networking project and now I'm more in the tweaking stage. Could not have done it without all of the great info from avsforum.

pjpjpjpj

08-19-08, 10:27 PM

Local 12 comes to agreement with Big East and UC to show Big East game of the week on channel 12 instead of CinCW.

I wonder how many SEC games will be joined in progress when the noon game goes over? Can't wait to read those rants....

I'll give you a rant right now.

"Oh, goody! I get to watch Syracuse-Pitt instead of Tennessee-Auburn or Alabama-Georgia!!!" (9/27)

"Instead of watching Auburn play between the hedges at Georgia, or watching Spurrier return to The Swamp, I get the always-compelling matchup of Rutgers vs. South Florida! Yay!!!" (11/15)

/sarcasm :D
//or just plain anger :mad:

gerhard911

08-19-08, 11:02 PM

Hahaha ! Awesome, think we can look forward to any of the games in HD (just to keep this somewhat on topic) ?

Gocats - Cincinnati's Team !

:D

terryfoster

08-20-08, 06:39 AM

Hahaha ! Awesome, think we can look forward to any of the games in HD (just to keep this somewhat on topic) ?

Pretty doubtful since they'll be ESPN+ games. ESPN hasn't been doing any promotion that would lead anyone to believe they're adding HD to their GamePlan. I'd settle for a HD version of ESPN's alternate feed when we have the the reverse mirror (ESPNHD blacked out because of carriage on WCPO and ABC's game only available on ESPN-SD).

Also, does this new agreement mean that the MAC game of the week will be on the CinCW?
This article suggests they'll be on WKRC, but I suppose that's still true even if it's on 12-1: Article (http://mac-sports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?&ATCLID=1524167&DB_OEM_ID=9400)

So,
MAC - WKRC
BigEast - WKRC
SEC - WKRC & WSTR
BigTen - WCPO
ND - WLWT
(minor) ACC/Big12/Pac10 - WCPO

That's a lot of coverage in one area. Also, didn't WXIX carry somebody's games?

tbenson81

08-20-08, 06:21 PM

Fox only carries the BCS games as far as college is concerned

FOX Sports and the BCS reached an exclusive four-year agreement covering all media distribution and sponsorship rights for the Tostitos Fiesta Bowl, FedEx Orange Bowl and Allstate Sugar Bowl from 2007 through 2010, and a new, stand-alone BCS National Championship Game from 2007 through 2009. In addition to telecast rights, the contract also covers national radio rights; Internet rights; all sponsorship rights, including naming rights, signage and virtual signage opportunities and in-game enhancements; ancillary programming on FOX and/or FSN; and a joint venture (FOX, BCS and Bowls) to identity and exploit merchandising opportunities.

Tony

tbenson81

08-20-08, 06:40 PM

Seriously

We'll see the feedback WKRC gets this year when people are missing Florida vs Georgia on Nov 1st so they can watch the end of Syracuse or Louisville.

Tony

terryfoster

08-20-08, 07:44 PM

Fox only carries the BCS games as far as college is concerned

I'm not specifically speaking about Fox. I'm pretty sure WXIX showed some syndicated games last year.

skylab

08-20-08, 09:42 PM

TBenson,

You wouldn't still be bitter because a Big East/MAC rivalry game of high local interest preempted an SEC game last season, are you? Before you get too worked up, have you considered using an antenna to get WHIO? Last time I checked, WHIO will not be carrying either Big East or MAC games this year, so you should be able to watch the SEC games on it.

Common sense would indicate that WKRC would not preempt a CBS game it is getting for free (or at least no additional cost as a CBS affiliate) with a Big East game that it is purchasing the rights for unless it thinks its going to get more viewers by showing the Big East game. The Big Ten/Big East are the top two conferences of interest for the Cincinnati DMA. I would wager they are followed by the MAC/SEC.

pjpjpjpj

08-22-08, 06:01 PM

I have no problem with them showing UC or Miami and having it run a little over into an SEC game. But I don't care about any other teams in either of their leagues. Unless it somehow came down to #1 against #2 in the nation (unlikely this year!), I'd rather watch any weekly CBS SEC game than Big East or MAC.

Of course, as skylab said, I can always just turn over to WHIO (even if it's UC and the game is out of reach but they are still showing it).

robmadden1

08-24-08, 02:48 AM

I hate the new CINCW on screen bug its huge. Why does it need to have to saylike this:

CINCINNATI
thecw
local 12.2

Too much crap on the screen in the bottom right hand cornner. The CW part is huge rest is small. its larger then the lcocal 12 bug.

Bill R (# 2)

08-24-08, 11:07 AM

I hate the new CINCW on screen bug its huge.

I have to agree. CW has the WORST logo of any OTA or satellite stations that I watch. In general I HATE logo. Why do the stations think that we are so stupid that they need CONSTANT logos to identify their stations.

The only think that I watch on the CW is the local news. In general I hate the station. The programs sure aren't for my generation. I even hate the promos that WKRC (12.1) almost constantly run for the CW. To me, even the promos are annoying. I find myself watching 12.1 live less and less (think goodness for DVRs).

jimp2244

08-25-08, 11:23 AM

Don't like to duplicate things but I just posted this in the Dayton thread and since it's relevant will post here as well...

Assuming the Browns game this Thursday is HD (as was the last one WHIO aired), we will have three HD NFL games on Thursday (8/28) night:

WLWT, WDTN - Jacksonville at Washington (national on NBC)
WKRC, WKEF - Cincinnati at Indianapolis (part of Bengals pre-season net)
WHIO - Chicago at Cleveland (part of Browns pre-season net)

Sea Ray

08-26-08, 12:44 AM

Anybody noticed numbers in the lower corner of their screens while using a digital cable box from TWC? In the past couple of days there's a 6 digit number that bounces from lower right to lower left on my screen that must be coming from my box. It's on every channel. I thought I'd throw it out here before I spend 45 minutes of my life on hold with a TWC rep to figure this out.

gerhard911

08-26-08, 08:35 AM

Sea Ray,

Nothing like that here. Have you unplugged your box to force a reboot ? I am on a Pace 550 with the dreaded Navigator software.

terryfoster

08-26-08, 09:09 AM

BTN and TWC have reached an agreement that will put their channel on expanded basic along with offering the HD channel and VOD. I assume more details will be released later.

http://www.limaohio.com/news/big_27406___article.html/warner_time.html

Sea Ray

08-26-08, 01:03 PM

Sea Ray,

Nothing like that here. Have you unplugged your box to force a reboot ? I am on a Pace 550 with the dreaded Navigator software.

I have the SA box. My hi-def box hasn't had this problem.

I did unplug it and re-boot and to my surprise it did take care of the problem. Kudos to you, Gerhard. It clearly seems like something the box was purposely injecting onto the screen. It was a three digit number with periods after every number followed by a slash and three more numbers with no periods. Maybe it was some kind of error code. I don't know. I'll watch and see if it comes back. It had a sort of transparency to it and it tended to switch sides of the screen with different scenes. It was mildly annoying, mainly when it conflicted with reading a trailer like on ESPN-2.

That's good they reached an agreement with the Big Ten but I'd prefer the NFL Network over watching OSU-Youngstown St

jdhughes63

08-26-08, 02:13 PM

terryfoster

08-26-08, 02:29 PM

Good question. Not knowing what it takes to add a channel to a cable system, I'm somewhat surprised they'll be ready for Saturday, but they say they will be ready. I'm sure there will be more announcements and probably some advertisements in the coming days.

jdhughes63

08-26-08, 04:36 PM

Here is what Kieswetter has to say today

"The good news: Most Time Warner customers will be able to see the Big Ten Network when it premieres sometime Thursday, two days before the Big Ten kicks off the football season. The BTN will be on expanded basic Channel 60, which most customers have. The BTN knocks Shop NBC to Channel 2. The infomercials on "leased access" Ch 2 will move to digital Ch 161. (What a shame! Won't you miss them?)

The BTN will be on Channel 70 on the former Adelphia systems in Delhi, Green and Liberty townships, and Amelia.

The bad news: Time Warner may not have the Ohio State-Youngstown State game in HDTV. Time Warner's priority is getting the BTN launched this week on expanded basic before the OSU-Youngstown State kick-off at noon Saturday. Providing HD and video-on-demand, which is part of the agreement reached late Monday, might not come immediately, says Pam McDonald, local Time Warner vice president for government and public affairs."

Nitewatchman

08-27-08, 06:30 PM

kyaj2

08-28-08, 09:13 AM

jimp2244

08-28-08, 09:41 AM

I believe there may be a difference here...I thought I saw in the paper where the Bengals game gets the shaft on WKRC if Barack Obama is speaking at the Democratic convention.

Yep, John Kiesewetter is on it here. (http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=PluckPersona&U=5c49394b12564ab6832411d82ad3a991&plckController=PersonaBlog&plckScript=personaScript&plckElementId=personaDest&plckPersonaPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3a5c49394b12564ab6832411d82ad3a991Post%3a35f 52ff3-0194-4e47-9cf0-1bda98950293&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com)

It's absolutely silly. Put the DNC on 12-2. Every other station in town will be showing the DNC anyway.

jimp2244

08-28-08, 09:48 AM

According the the maps that homcom posted here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14539182#post14539182), there is good news for Saturday night where we'll get both games, thanks to WKEF and WCPO showing opposite games. If I understand correctly, only the 3:30pm game has reverse mirror with ESPN2 (meaning whichever game is not on ABC is shown on ESPN2).

So, the schedule for our area looks like this (all games in HD):

3:30pm
WCPO, WKEF - Utah at Michigan

8:00pm
WCPO - Alabama vs Clemson
WKEF - Michigan State at California

jimp2244

08-28-08, 11:13 AM

FYI, for those who never look at it and might be interested, updated first "info" post on this thread with the following info on new Local LP digital stations now on air in area (The first LP digitals on air in this area, BTW) :

Low Power Stations On air

W20CT-D KET LP DTV Translator, Augusta, KY - http://www.ket.org/dtv
W23DM-D KET LP DTV translator, Falmouth KY http://www.ket.org/dtv
Have you been able to pull either one of them in? From the contour maps it looks like their service areas are extremely small (typical of a translator I assume). Also interesting they both appear to have directional patterns, with the Augusta pattern seeming to favor the Ohio side of the river!

William Smith

08-28-08, 12:35 PM

FYI
Augusta will remap as WKMR-DT and Falmouth will remap at WKON-DT

thanks to PSIP.

William

Nitewatchman

08-28-08, 05:59 PM

Thanks for the mapping info William, I'll add that to first post.

Have you been able to pull either one of them in?

Not so far, but I haven't had a chance to look for them much, either. You never know, but I don't expect to have much luck with those. I've never seen the analogs on 56, or even CCI to WDKY 56 that might have been from those.

I have logged WBLU-LP 62 Lexington, though, as well as ThinkTV translator W63AH maplewood (which I see quite often, actually) which has similar footprint and is about same distance away.

(typical of a translator I assume).

Not necessarily, they can be significantly larger coverage area, as large as any LP station. Just depends on what they're using it for/what stations coverage areas they have to protect/etc.

blbrodbeck

08-28-08, 07:54 PM

TWC has added Ch. 16 to my digital cable including 16HD. Now I'm getting ch. 914-918, all of which are PBS Ch. 16 from Dayton & its subchannels. These have been available on the QAM channels for months now.

Will they be adding any other Dayton channels?

Bill R (# 2)

08-28-08, 08:34 PM

It's absolutely silly. Put the DNC on 12-2. Every other station in town will be showing the DNC anyway.

It sure is. I hoped that when Newport took over WKRC that they would put some of their own people in that had more common sense than the people from Clear Channel who CLEARLY don't understand this market (and apparently still run things). IF the game does run past 10 PM and they do cut it they are going to get hundreds of complaints but I'm sure that they don't care.

Has anyone noticed all the times that WKRC dropped back to SD to promo "Big Brother"? Very annoying!

This is the last week that I'll watch the Bengals on WKRC. Thank goodness during the regular season there are alternatives to their feed.

jdhughes63

08-28-08, 09:15 PM

Nitewatchman

08-28-08, 10:46 PM

Not airing the sort of political coverage tonight on the "main channel"(maybe even currently both analog+digital given the CECB's out there w/o analog pass through) could potentially land a station in a lot bigger trouble via "complaints" and similar vs. complaints about a sports event ....

It only takes one goofball's(or goofball organization) complaint to FCC or a congresssitter/etc. regarding these sorts of issues to get a station in BIG trouble .....

jimp2244

08-29-08, 07:43 AM

It sure is. I hoped that when Newport took over WKRC that they would put some of their own people in that had more common sense than the people from Clear Channel who CLEARLY don't understand this market (and apparently still run things). IF the game does run past 10 PM and they do cut it they are going to get hundreds of complaints but I'm sure that they don't care.

Has anyone noticed all the times that WKRC dropped back to SD to promo "Big Brother"? Very annoying!

This is the last week that I'll watch the Bengals on WKRC. Thank goodness during the regular season there are alternatives to their feed.

The game was also on ABC 22 (WKEF Dayton) in HD as well so there were alternatives. I would have watched on WKEF except that they had a rather large "ABC22" opaque bug and a clicking every 1-2 seconds in the audio.

WHIO-DT had the Browns in HD. Lucky for WLWT/WDTN and WKRC, the Bengals game and the NBC game ended before 10pm so they ended up not having to deal with the DNC vs. NFL issue. WHIO's Browns game went way beyond 10pm and their solution was to switch to DNC coverage on analog 7 and keep the Browns HD on digital 7-1 and on a few cable channels. That's actually a pretty good solution although it won't work 6 months from now.

jimp2244

08-29-08, 07:49 AM

Splicer010

08-29-08, 08:02 AM

I would have watched on WKEF except that they had a rather large "ABC22" opaque bug and a clicking every 1-2 seconds in the audio.

That 'bug' was so distracting...What the hell are they thinking using a huge...blue '22' on the upper right hand corner??? As for the click/popping noise...it was rather irritating wasn't it...I still watched the Bears/Browns game anyway...

Nitewatchman

08-29-08, 11:49 AM

If you have suggestions, it's probably best to contact the stations directly, but Just a FYI, I know that some(well at least one who doesn't post) of the Dayton folks at the stations read Dayton thread occasionally, but probably not Cincinnati thread ...

Still seems silly to me personally though!

Me too... But, if you've ever looked at some of the stuff FCC gets .... I recall running across info on a Big fine one station in area got a number of years ago, if I recall correctly it had something to do with Children's programming (I'm fuzzy on the details, but think it might have been about the amount of it, or what time they ran certian programming/etc they had not meeting the rules or something) .... It happened because of one complaint if I recall correctly ...

And I don't have time to dig it up currently, but If I recall correctly I think the main thing with the political coverage is, they have to give equal time to the candidates ... "Rule wise", I don't think there's anything that for instance says there is anything "wrong" with what WHIO did last night as FCC dropped a "simucast" requirement for digital vs. analog they had for a time. But still, I suppose it's possible someone could have a valid point with "tptb" in complaining that they're not giving equal coverage if portion of DNC coverage wasn't on the digital channel(and wasn't HD) and RNC is .... Did check at end of game to see, BTW, and noticed 7-2 had their usual weather programming ....

Just saying, there are probably good reasons for stations to be especially "careful" regarding this type of thing ....

WHIO's Browns game went way beyond 10pm and their solution was to switch to DNC coverage on analog 7 and keep the Browns HD on digital 7-1 and on a few cable channels.

And as I posted on Dayton thread on WRCX-LP 40 analog (Dayton's Ion Life affilate currently) -- they transmit OTA, but are on Dayton Cable as well .... Their Coverage Area doesn't really reach Cincy, although Some Cincinnati viewers may be able to get some sort of signal from them ...

Nitewatchman

08-29-08, 01:52 PM

Interesting, Just noticed WSTR-DT 64.1 is currently (and at least last night during MyTV programming) Running 1080i ... Last I paid any attention they were 720p ..

Also, was going to post this in programming or HDTV technical area, but As long as I'm posting, Another oddity I noticed last night from my cap of last nights MYTV Broadcast of the Film "I witness" ... A pic is worth 1'000 words, so attached is screenshot (resized from 1920x1088 to smaller size so I could attach it here) ... Look at top of the pillarbars .... You'll notice thin small "blue" lines, which would probably be hidden by overscan on most TV's ... It's Not as obvious in this still, but watching the "moving pictures", it's obvious that the blue line is "sky" in this scene, and that pillarbars are covering up portion of frame from 16x9 video outside of 4x3 area .... (If for instance camera pans across a scene with tree branches in top of frame, you'll see tree branches in those small areas above the pillarbars) ....

I've also seen this once before, earlier this summer during a Fox Broadcast of "Jurassic Park II" on WXIX-DT .. Seeing it at the time, I checked WRGT-DT, and at first at the time they seemed to be having some sort of issue with the HD feed/splicer and they switched to the SD feed .... But, I'm fairly certian in both cases (WSTR last night on MY TV and Jurassic park on Fox earlier this summer) that these pillarbars were being inserted at Network (or splicer perhaps?) Level, because for instance, in both cases, HD(or SD widescreen) Commercials via both broadcast via the HD Net feed were HD/16x9 without the sidebars .....

Unless they were "experiementing" in both cases[update: And experimenting with AFD is my best bet at this point [end update] - , otherwise I wonder why in the world they would do that? I haven't looked at the film from last night closely enough yet, but I don't think the Jurassic Park, or probably last night's "I witness" were HD presentations, instead looks/looked like SD (widescreen SD if the pillarbars weren't covering up the sides!) .... If that's the reason, I'm not sure it makes much sense, as for instance Fox has aired many broadcasts (Such as Fox News Sunday) as 16x9 via the HD feed which were Widescreen SD productions ....

jimp2244

08-29-08, 02:08 PM

^interesting... I have noticed recently (over a fair number of months actually) that the WSTR-DT pillar bars on SD programming change colors slightly. They are black, but usually have a slight blue tint to them, but this blue tint changes as the bars get lighter and darker depending on the content in the 4:3 area. I can't be the only one who has noticed this?

Nitewatchman

08-29-08, 07:03 PM

I can't be the only one who has noticed this?

Nope .. I know some folks don't like anything other than black bars, but what they've been doing doesn't bother me at all ....

Also, besides an occasional HD Movie from MYTV, I haven't watched WSTR much in a while ... But, I think the upconverted material didn't look so great when they were running 720p vs. the 1080i now and when they were WB affiliate ...

jdhughes63

08-30-08, 12:39 PM

OK Time Warner. Saturday is here and I can only find OSU on the Big Ten in SD (TW-60). What channel is the Big Ten HD on? (TW-9??)

mlbUC

08-30-08, 01:20 PM

mlbUC

08-30-08, 01:21 PM

On a side note, WBDT-DT in Dayton (CW) has the SEC game of the week in HD (Florida vs Hawaii).

slimm

08-30-08, 02:25 PM

It's also in HD here in Cincy (WSTR-DT)

tbenson81

08-30-08, 03:49 PM

USC vs Va is supposed to be on ESPN2

Its on ESPN2 standard but not on ESPN2 HD - what gives?

Bubster

08-30-08, 05:49 PM

I saw it stated that they wouldn't have the games in HD for week 1, and possibly not until week 3.

Any idea if they will show the alternative games for BTN? On DirecTV I get all 5 games going on right now...

I watched OSU on TWC ch 60 and I must say TWCincy has improved their SD pic quality alot lately. It seems like it happened when they rolled out the dreaded "Mystro" software? :confused:

terryfoster

08-31-08, 01:58 PM

USC vs Va is supposed to be on ESPN2

Its on ESPN2 standard but not on ESPN2 HD - what gives?

Reverse mirror. From your description I can deduce the Michigan game was on the main ESPN2HD feed so the ESPN2 alternate feed was used to feed this area with the USC/VA game. Now, the problem is that ESPN2 doesn't have an alternate HD feed and so it was SD only.

tbenson81

08-31-08, 07:23 PM

skylab

08-31-08, 10:02 PM

Doesnt make sense still

Michigan vs Utah was on WCPO-HD

The USC game was supposed to be reversed mirror but it was only on the standard ESPN2.

On ESPN2 HD - they just showed some college football highlight show to 4 hours

As terryfoster indicated, ESPN is not capable of reverse mirroring both games in HD. USC vs Virginia was the primary game for ABC and Michigan vs. Utah was scheduled on ESPN2HD. ESPN2 alternate was not capable of showing the reverse mirrored game (USC vs Virginia) in HD. Hence, it was on in SD but not in HD.

So, for those that got USC vs. Virginia on ABC-HD then they would get Michigan vs. Utah on ESPN2HD (both in HD).
For those, like us, who got Michigan vs. Utah on ABC-HD, then the USC vs. Virginia game was in SD on ESPN2-alternate.

Bill R (# 2)

09-01-08, 10:37 AM

jdhughes63

09-01-08, 11:16 AM

I think WLWT did a very good job this year with the WEBN fireworks. It was MUCH better than last year. The long shots gave us a very good view of the whole show. There were no glitches this year as there was last year with the shots from the helicopter (I glad that they did not use it this year).

Yes. WLWT did an excellent job this year. Much better camera placements. They caught all the highlights. The HD broadcast cetainly enhanced the experience. Now if they can do an HD live remote why can't they do a live HD newscast?

pjpjpjpj

09-01-08, 03:52 PM

Yes. WLWT did an excellent job this year. Much better camera placements. They caught all the highlights. The HD broadcast cetainly enhanced the experience. Now if they can do an HD live remote why can't they do a live HD newscast?

Agree they did a good job with the fireworks and amen to "why can't they do HD news?".

tbenson81

09-01-08, 04:59 PM

ThoraX695

09-01-08, 06:40 PM

Yes, the WEBN fireworks looked fantastic this year. :D (The tribute to the late Ken "Mr. K." Glidewell was fitting too.)

I thought the rumor mill had WLWT being the next local station to convert their news to HD followed by WXIX then WKRC. If WLWT pulled off their live HD coverage like this, then it appears that there shouldn't be any major technical roadblocks for them to convert their news to HD.

WCPO still appears to have their local commercial blocks scaled to SD though. I saw one of their promos in 4:3 and another one 16:9, but it was blocked on the top and bottom to fit 4:3. I guess it's the final piece for them to go fully HD (besides eventually upgrading their 480i wide screen cameras).

And who knows when our local LP stations WOTH and WBQC will get their digital setup completed. :)

terryfoster

09-02-08, 06:41 AM

Thanks Terry and Skylab

What you are saying makes sense but Im not sure I understand why ESPN2 HD is not capable of showing the game in HD? There are HD cameras at both sites so.....whats the problem?

Since Disney owns ESPN and ABC........you would think that ESPN2 could just broadcast the HD telecast from ABC........

ESPN & ESPN2 are nation wide channels. To provide regional coverage they need to supply alternate feeds to cable and satellite providers. ESPN & ESPN2 only have SD alternate feeds. So when the main programming from ESPN and/or ESPN 2 is being carried on the local ABC affiliate, they must either black out ESPN/2 or supply alternate programming. In the case of reverse mirroring they supply alternate programming, but since the alternate feeds are SD only they have to blackout the HD feed and switch the SD feed.

So ESPN/2 doesn't supply an alternate HD feed (regardless of it being carried by local affiliates) that the cable & DBS companies can use.

From what you're saying, it sounds like they may have used the old ESPN blackout trick of turning on ESPNNEWS.

jimp2244

09-02-08, 10:09 AM

Nope .. I know some folks don't like anything other than black bars, but what they've been doing doesn't bother me at all ....Doesn't bother me either, but what ARE they doing to get this result?

jimp2244

09-02-08, 05:43 PM

Welcome back NFL!

We will get a total of 7 NFL games this week, all in HD! OTA-only viewers will get 5 games. Cable/Dish-only viewers will get 7 games. FOX has the double-header this week.

Thursday Night Game:

7pm NBC (5 WLWT, 2 WDTN) – Washington at NY Giants
Al Michaels, John Madden

Sunday Day Games:

1pm CBS (12 WKRC, 7 WHIO) Cincinnati at Baltimore
Kevin Harlan and Rich Gannon

1pm FOX (19 WXIX, 45 WRGT) Tampa Bay at New Orleans
Thom Brennaman, Brian Billick

4pm FOX (19 WXIX, 45 WRGT) Dallas at Cleveland
Joe Buck, Troy Aikman

Sunday Night Football:

8:15pm NBC (5 WLWT, 2 WDTN) – Chicago at Indianapolis
Al Michaels, John Madden

Monday Night Football:

7pm ESPN – Minnesota at Green Bay
Mike Tirico, Ron Jaworski, Tony Kornheiser)

10:15pm ESPN - Denver at Oakland
Mike Greenberg, Mike Golic, Mike Ditka

+Cable Only
*Bonus game for OTA viewers (none this week)

Notes: Starting this season, all NFL games will be produced in HD. All games will also be broadcast in HD with possible rare exceptions: Because of HD transport capacity limitations at CBS, there may be instances where a 4pm game will need to be in SD temporarily until 1pm games finish. Note that even this is unlikely to occur, and that there are only two times all year where this even has the potential to occur (maybe three depending on NBC Flex). Also, you may see halftime highlights on CBS in SD.

As always, let me know if any information is incorrect or needs to be updated.

jimp2244

09-02-08, 10:26 PM

Whoops! Double my64 bug on WSTR-DT tonight... (see attached)

jim tressler

09-05-08, 03:50 PM

For those TWC customers - I just received a letter from TWC - starting on October 3, 2008 they will be switching to SDV for "lesser viewed" channels. The letter talks about how it will not effect the vast majority of their customers.. but those with "cable cards may be unable to access certain channels and services absent additional equipment."

Bill R (# 2)

09-05-08, 06:37 PM

For those TWC customers - I just received a letter from TWC - starting on October 3, 2008 they will be switching to SDV for "lesser viewed" channels.

For those that don't know SDV is switched digital video. It allows cable companies to only send a channel's signal to an area (a node) where people have selected the channel on their (cable company provided) STB. It allows them to better utilize their bandwidth.

Bubster

09-06-08, 08:31 PM

I would think the FCC would be unhappy with the cable companies making their proprietary hardware the only way to view content on their cable systems.

Am I missing something here?

blbrodbeck

09-06-08, 08:57 PM

This screws the QAM users.

gerhard911

09-06-08, 09:19 PM

This screws the QAM users.

I don't think so. We were already screwed - TWC Cincy only transmits the mandated channels in clear. Does this allow them to move these to SDV to F-up our QAM reception ?

That would not make any sense in terms of saving bandwidth - I would expect that the locals would always have an active viewer in just about every node.

terryfoster

09-07-08, 09:14 AM

I don't think so. We were already screwed - TWC Cincy only transmits the mandated channels in clear. Does this allow them to move these to SDV to F-up our QAM reception ?

That would not make any sense in terms of saving bandwidth - I would expect that the locals would always have an active viewer in just about every node.

Well, if you want to include QAM users as those that have CableCARD HDTVs or CableCARD devices (TiVo, etc), then yes it does screw them over. "Lesser viewed channels" would go SDV as popular channels would likely take up the bandwidth anyway.

Bubster

09-07-08, 01:24 PM

:mad:OK, who do I call at KRC to get the HD switch turned on?:mad:

nees1212

09-07-08, 01:27 PM

:mad:OK, who do I call at KRC to get the HD switch turned on?:mad:

It's on now!! :D

Bubster

09-07-08, 01:39 PM

:mad:OK, who do I call at KRC to get the HD switch turned on?:mad:

Never mind!
I hate it when they do that!

(1st 25 mins was in SD)

Bill R (# 2)

09-07-08, 01:49 PM

:mad:OK, who do I call at KRC to get the HD switch turned on?:mad:

I called about 5 minutes after the game started and the newsroom lady told me that the game wasn't in HD. I told her that CBS had a big logo at the beginning at the telecast that the game WAS in HD. I asked her to please call the control room and ask them to check. I noticed that (finally) after almost half an hour they are showing the game in HD. I don't know if it was equipment problems (at WKRC) or someone who wasn't doing his/her job. The game WAS in HD on WHIO (Dayton) from the start but I have dropouts on that channel so, today, WKRC is my only choice.

Has anyone noticed how bad the compression is on the WKRC feed? I am watching the game via OTA, not cable or satellite.

mlbUC

09-07-08, 01:53 PM

In watching the game on D*'s Sunday ticket feed, I noticed it is better than on WHIO-DT. The subchannel causes a lot of motion artifacts OTA, but D*'s feed is fairly clean.

Bill R (# 2)

09-07-08, 01:54 PM

Well, if you want to include QAM users as those that have CableCARD HDTVs or CableCARD devices (TiVo, etc), then yes it does screw them over. "Lesser viewed channels" would go SDV as popular channels would likely take up the bandwidth anyway.

Yes, those are the people that get screwed. In all markets that I know of where they are using SDV none of the local channels are on SDV and all the channels that are SDV are encrypted.

tbenson81

09-07-08, 09:54 PM

Fine for about a month and now starting today during the Bengal game.......sounds like crap again.

Tony

davcole

09-07-08, 10:09 PM

Fine for about a month and now starting today during the Bengal game.......sounds like crap again.

Tony

I don't get a chance to watch much over the air but yes there was crackling throughout the game.

jim tressler

09-07-08, 10:09 PM

also took wkrc about 10 minutes to switch to hd

Bubster

09-07-08, 10:11 PM

Took 25 minutes. I was livid!

jim tressler

09-07-08, 10:12 PM

whio got it right :)

microbob

09-07-08, 10:41 PM

I don't get a chance to watch much over the air but yes there was crackling throughout the game.

When will Newport spring for the 5.1 audio equipment? I thought Clear Channel was cheap in running WKRC TV :)

jimp2244

09-08-08, 08:42 AM

In watching the game on D*'s Sunday ticket feed, I noticed it is better than on WHIO-DT. The subchannel causes a lot of motion artifacts OTA, but D*'s feed is fairly clean.D* should be taking the feed from WHIO-DT... the same one that gets sent out OTA. So, D* PQ should be the same or worse than WHIO-DT OTA. My guess would be that their mpeg4 compression is softening up the artifacts so that they are less noticeable.

mlbUC

09-08-08, 08:45 AM

D* should be taking the feed from WHIO-DT... the same one that gets sent out OTA. So, D* PQ should be the same or worse than WHIO-DT OTA. My guess would be that their mpeg4 compression is softening up the artifacts so that they are less noticeable.

You aren't following. The Sunday Ticket feed, not the WHIO-DT feed. They didn't black it out, so I was able to compare both the OTA feed and the Sunday Ticket (national) feed. If you check around the different D* sites you will see that almost everyone thought the PQ of their Sunday Ticket games were incredible.

jim tressler

09-08-08, 10:11 AM

you should have been blacked out from the sunday ticket channel..

In watching the game on D*'s Sunday ticket feed, I noticed it is better than on WHIO-DT. The subchannel causes a lot of motion artifacts OTA, but D*'s feed is fairly clean.

mlbUC

09-08-08, 10:21 AM

No Sunday Ticket channels were blacked out. If you look at the main HD programming forum there is a discussion (maybe within the CBS or Fox threads?) about how none of the channels were blacked out.

I wonder if they have made a change in their contract that allows them to keep those channels available.

Either way, the feed was significantly better than the OTA feed on WHIO-DT, and I'd assume WKRC-DT.

Bill R (# 2)

09-08-08, 10:28 AM

When will Newport spring for the 5.1 audio equipment? I thought Clear Channel was cheap in running WKRC TV :)

A lot of corporate people that were with Clear Channel are now with Newport so you have some of the same tightwads "running the show". If anything, things are worse at WKRC since Newport took over. Ask any of the people that lost their job and the current employees that fear more cutbacks. As far as equipment upgrades, it is the same "game" as before (engineers request upgrades, corporate may or may not approve those requests). The people "running the show" are more concerned about the bottom line then they are technical quality and that is why we don't have 5.1 sound and WKRC can't do anything LIVE (like the news) in HD.

jim tressler

09-08-08, 12:06 PM

I was blacked out from 704-1 or whatever the bengals were on

No Sunday Ticket channels were blacked out. If you look at the main HD programming forum there is a discussion (maybe within the CBS or Fox threads?) about how none of the channels were blacked out.

I wonder if they have made a change in their contract that allows them to keep those channels available.

Either way, the feed was significantly better than the OTA feed on WHIO-DT, and I'd assume WKRC-DT.

mlbUC

09-08-08, 12:08 PM

Hmmm... I am in the Dayton DMA so maybe that is why I didn't get blacked out. But none of the games that were on WHIO or WRGT were blacked out for me.

jim tressler

09-08-08, 12:09 PM

anything that was on 12 or 19 I was blacked out on..

davcole

09-09-08, 09:06 AM

I'm curious why WKRC broadcast Entertainment Tonight in SD instead of the highly touted HD?

pjpjpjpj

09-09-08, 09:25 AM

terryfoster

09-09-08, 09:27 AM

I'm curious why WKRC broadcast Entertainment Tonight in SD instead of the highly touted HD?

Probably because they don't have the ability to handle syndicated HD programs (capture/record to broadcast later). It took a little while for WCPO to get the equipment necessary. How many of these new HD syndicated programs does WKRC carry? If this is the only one the cost probably outweighs the benefit, but I think I said the same thing about Jeopardy/Wheel on WCPO.

Bill R (# 2)

09-09-08, 12:31 PM

Going back to the Bengals game topic, I noticed that the second half also began in SD on WKRC (OTA) - they switched to SD for the halftime show and did not switch back until a while into the second half. I don't know how long they let it go because I was flipped over to WHIO.

This is just plain lazy, sloppy, unacceptable. Seriously... get with it, people.

Did this happen last season much (before I was on the HD bandwagon)?

Yes, it happened too many times last season not only on football but on MANY CBS programs. It seems that WKRC still does manual switching and whoever is on duty just forgets to switch.

The sad part about this is if you complain to anyone at WKRC they offer every excuse in the book as to why something isn't in HD (the biggest lie is "CBS is not sending it to us in HD"). I have yet to find someone at WKRC who seems to care and I can't believe how arrogant some of the people that I talked to were.

davcole

09-09-08, 01:02 PM

I'm curious if they don't, how could 'KRC broadcast Bengals preseason games in HD and not be ready to show syndicated programming?

terryfoster

09-09-08, 01:19 PM

I'm curious if they don't, how could 'KRC broadcast Bengals preseason games in HD and not be ready to show syndicated programming?

You could do some searches back in this thread regarding the differences between live streams and syndicated programming, but in short WKRC (as I noted before) needs to be able to retain the HD stream to broadcast later.

pjpjpjpj

09-09-08, 01:25 PM

Why would they switch back to SD for the halftime show? Does it cost them more money to send out HD signals so they turn it off as much as possible?

jimp2244

09-09-08, 03:07 PM

Why would they switch back to SD for the halftime show? Does it cost them more money to send out HD signals so they turn it off as much as possible? When there is a local commercial break, the only local source they have is SD, so they have to switch to that. They are supposed to switch back to HD but they very often forget. You can bet that besides the missing HD programming, there are a BUNCH of HD commercials that are airing on WKRC as SD because they can't figure out how to switch properly.

microbob

09-09-08, 03:19 PM

I saw this over on another board and I thought I'd post this here in case posters want to sign this in order to get Retro TV on in Cincinnati.

http://www.signalforsale.com/

jimp2244

09-09-08, 03:27 PM

How many of these new HD syndicated programs does WKRC carry? If this is the only one the cost probably outweighs the benefit, but I think I said the same thing about Jeopardy/Wheel on WCPO.

From the Hot Off the Press thread the following syndicated programs are now available in HD:

Oprah (WCPO, WDTN)
Entertainment Tonight (WKRC, WHIO)
Ellen (WCPO, WHIO)
Dr. Phil (WLWT, WHIO)
The Insider (WCPO)

I am not aware of any of the local affiliates carrying them in HD at this point. Anyone notice otherwise?

Paul210

09-09-08, 03:31 PM

...is failure to flip the switch.

Welcome to what all of us early adopters put up with for YEARS!!! It was a daily occurence. It's relatively unheard of now.

terryfoster

09-09-08, 05:21 PM

From the Hot Off the Press thread the following syndicated programs are now available in HD:

Oprah (WCPO, WDTN)
Entertainment Tonight (WKRC, WHIO)
Ellen (WCPO, WHIO)
Dr. Phil (WLWT, WHIO)
The Insider (WCPO)

I am not aware of any of the local affiliates carrying them in HD at this point. Anyone notice otherwise?

Well, I would be surprised if Oprah, Ellen, and The Insider weren't carried on WCPO since they have the capability to do syndicated HD programs, but I really don't know since I don't watch these shows.

Nitewatchman

09-09-08, 05:24 PM

Oprah+Ellen* were HD on WCPO Today(oprah was not HD on WDTN), Ellen and Dr. Phil was HD on WHIO as well (Didn't get a chance to check WLWT) ...

* - update - well, WCPO cut from Ellen HD to cover Mccain/Palin at Golden Lamb( and WHIO must have cut from Dr. Phil for Obama at Stebbins HS), WCPO said they were going to rebroadcast Ellen it in entirety during wee hours ... BTW, I flipping around this morning looking for the local "political" coverage at ~10am, that's when I noticed Ellen+Dr. Phil in HD, which peaked my curiousity to check the 4pm shows as well ....

Update #2 : ET was HD on WHIO(as already reported not yet on WKRC), But Wheel still SD on WHIO ...

mikemikeb

09-10-08, 12:46 AM

I saw this over on another board and I thought I'd post this here in case posters want to sign this in order to get Retro TV on in Cincinnati.

http://www.signalforsale.com/Thanks to the way the splicer works, if they put it on Fox 19 (19-2), I wouldn't mind.