Cincinnati, OH - HDTV [Text View] - Page 4

Nitewatchman

07-06-04, 05:20 PM

WHweasel,

Looking good! I also noticed that after going down on Fri+coming back up sometime Sat morning, I'm getting improved "signal quality" readings from WKRC-DT. On my Zenith receiver for example, prior to Friday, it would fluctuate slightly between about 95%-100% -- Since Fri, its "pegging the meter" 100% of the time.

Originally posted by jim tressler
Hey gang, while I am waiting for my Directv STB and High def tv.. I have been looking at OTA options.. I am about 20-25 miles from the antenna "farms" out in maineville - I can get the analog stuff fairly well with a simple set of rabit ears - so I figure for the digitals I should be ok - I checked the contour maps and I am actually about 50 feet above the base elevations of the towers with no hills in the way- problem is the WAF - looks like I am going to try an inside attic mount - I am looking at the Channel Master 3010 or 3030. I am assuming since it will be an attic mount, the larger 3030 will help overcome the fact that its inside - Is that a correct assumption? Also I have read alot of Radio Shack antenna bashing.. I was also looking at the VU-90 as well. Any advice anyone has would be appreciated!

thanks!

jim

VU90 or CM3030 should be good options for you, I'd think. Strangely enough I no longer see any outdoor antennas listed on RS site, I hope they aren't discontinuing them. I've not had any problems with my VU-210(10 years old, tower mounted). While its true there are antennas out there that are better performers and have better build quality than some of the RS antennas --- For the most part you are not talking about a big difference. A difference in gain of 1 or 2db on say, ch 56 or a bit "tighter" pattern directivity wise isn't usually going to make much, if any difference.

I hadn't heard of CM3030 before + can't dig up the gain specs, but if this is it ( http://www.channelmaster.com/images/3030.jpg ) then I'd think it would be a good choice. If you're going into the attic, probably the biggest thing(VHF/UHF combo wise) you can get that will fit+allow you to aim it properly wouldn't be a bad idea. You'll of course need either a rotor(which probably isn't going to work too well with a VHF/UHF combo in the attic) or seperate antennas/feedlines+a A/B switch near receiver if you want both Dayton+Cincinnati stations. Of course, you only need 1 antenna but different aiming for Dayton/Cincinnati to try it at first.

Then again, if you're getting good reception of the Cincy UHF analogs(19,25,38,48,54,61,64 - 25,38+61 are Low power so don't worry too much if they're a little snowy -- also -- you won't be able to tell much from the VHF's on 5,9,12) with your current antenna, chances are good that it might work fine for DTV as well. Certianly, what's good for improving analog reception is good for Digital as well - get the snow/ghosts or interference out of the analog UHF's, and you should improve your chances for getting good OTA (H)DTV reception as well.

I've found that oftentimes a "indoor" antenna such as Silver sensor or RS DBT ( http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=930%2D0998 ) Combined with a VHF/UHF joiner to a a VHF "rabbit ears" (for WCPO-DT ABC 10) will work well if placed near a window that faces the towers.

I've only tried it for a few hours at a time just to see if it worked, but I can get the Dayton(12~14 miles)/Cincy (27~32 Miles) digitals except WCVN-DT/WKOI-DT fine with one of these $3 UHF antennas ( http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D234 ) combined with rabbit ears for VHF, if I place the antenna near a 2nd story window facing the towers.(E window for Dayton, S window for Cincy). I do not have "line of sight" as I'm down in a valley with hills in the way. Analog UHF reception with this is quite snowy and ghosty(but the best I can do from indoors), digital reception is perfect(or, at least it was when I was checking it :-) -- Analog reception is completely horrible and unwatchable from the attic -- and there's no digital reception except from 1 Dayton station from attic here -- and just barely -- no matter how "good" or big the antenna is.

YMMV of course, and there are a lot of factors involved, especially concerning how well a indoor or attic installation will work out for you -- Farther than 15 miles or so out from the towers, and indoor reception can become especially problematic -- but, we have plenty of folks in Dayton/Cincinnati getting good results with attic antennas from as far out at 50 miles.

Anyhow, I wouldn't recommend the CM3010 -- and especially so for a indoor installation -- Its VHF section is OK(just because VHF is so "easy to receive" --- it's pretty much VHF rabbit ears) ... but its UHF section is especially weak -- it's basically just a UHF "rabbit ear" cut for ch 17. It *might* do better outdoors than any antenna you could put indoors though -- Hard to say -- It is pretty much one of those antennas that let you put it outside(or on the dish mast) while doing its best to tackle the WAF ....

Then again, in your specific circumstance(given the direction of Cincy towers) I suppose one of those dish clip on antennas *might* work well, perhaps better than anything you could put indoors. Putting the antenna indoors will attenuate the signals by about 15db in a best case circumstance, probably more.

And don't forget .. One of the most important things is to put the antenna in a "sweet spot" for reception -- that is true for the attic, anywhere else indoors and even outdoors(although to a lesser extent). Moving the antenna as little as 6" or a couple of feet to right/left or back forth or up/down can especially make a BIG difference in the attic or anywhere indoors. ANYTHING within about 10~15 feet or so from the antenna (in the direction it is "aimed" becomes, in effect connected to the antenna and effects its performance.

Some of my below reply to Dimitriz might be of use to you as well :

Excellent info on Antennas and Reception can be found here:

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennadex.html

Originally posted by Dimitriz

Hey guys, I just got a new HDTV (my 2nd one) a Sanyo 30" WS from Walmart. It has the OTA tuner built in. I am trying to get some OTA channels that TWC doest carry.... (Fox..., I know they are finally coming to TWC in Sept). So far I tried to go the cheap way and tried 2 Jensen antennas from BestBuy. 1st one had gain of 30 and it kinda sucksed so I got the 2nd one that has gain of 45 and while it's better I still get huge ups and downs in receptions.
By now I am thinking of putting in a bigger antenna in the atick to get better signal, hower I know nothing of what antenna/amp. I should use.

I live in Loveland, right on Butterworth/Rt48. (45140) According to antennaweb I am less then 20 miles from the stations that I want to receive.

Thanks

Much of the info in my above reply to Jim should also apply to your situation as well. Best, and most important thing I would stress would be to get a little extra feedline and move the antenna(whatever antenna you are using) around to try to find a "sweet spot" for good reception before placing it in a "permanent" spot. A spot near the TV might not work very well, but a spot 15 feet away next to a window, or who knows, a spot 5 feet away inside a closet might work well -- you'll just have to experiment to find the best spot and a antenna that will work well for you. As noted above, the Zenith Silver sensor and the RS DBT are good UHF indoor antennas.

As for preamp - I would try it without a preamp(or a "amplified" antenna) first -- a preamp really isn't going to get you "more signal" at the antenna, but if you have a long cable run+are splitting the feedline to many TV's, a preamp can help recover that loss, and in some circumstances, a good preamp with a low noise figure can improve the "noise figure" the front-end of your receiver sees, a poorly designed(such as what you get with most indoor "amplified" antennas), or overloaded preamp can make it worse -- much worse. Among other things, the following article has some good information (including tests) on preamps and why we use them :

http://www.geocities.com/toddemslie/UHF-TV-DX.html

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Hope some of this helps in some way (its actually not as "complicated" as it might sound) + good luck guys ...

WebHopperWeasel

07-06-04, 06:13 PM

Anyone else care to comment on signal quality improvement on WKRC-DT? I am gathering info and I want to ensure that everyone is getting better signal and that some folks are not getting degraded signal quality.

Weasel

DrDon

07-06-04, 06:24 PM

Sure, Wease... I'm seeing the same improvement Jeff did. WKRC-DT went from around 95 to 99, here. No fluctuation. Understandably, cutting the buffer seems to have brought the PQ up even more. Guess you don't need the MPEG buffer with the EC 8VSB employs, right?

microbob

07-06-04, 06:51 PM

The WKRC-DT signal is much stronger here also. The signal is comparable to WLWT-DT which has the strongest readings in my area,up until now that is.

dvdslut

07-06-04, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by WebHopperWeasel
Anyone else care to comment on signal quality improvement on WKRC-DT? I am gathering info and I want to ensure that everyone is getting better signal and that some folks are not getting degraded signal quality.

Weasel
The signal is worse here in Oxford. It was usually in the 80's and is now down in the 70's.

jim

Dimitriz

07-07-04, 08:03 AM

Nighwatchman,

Thanks for your reply!
On recommendations from another forum I purchased:

Gemini ZHDTV1 HDTV-UHF Digital Indoor Antenna
Cant post a link :(
It was only like $17 at the time, now they raised the price to $25...
The antenna got good reviews on Amazon as well and a few other places, I figure that in the worst case I am out of $17... ehh... :) we'll see.

jim tressler

07-07-04, 09:28 AM

wow.. thanks nitewatchman! that was an excellent reply!!

I will be tackling the antenna thing this weekend. It looks like I am going to get the rs vu-90 and go from there. One more question, this antenna will feed 1 stb (will find out tomorrow what hdtv box directv brings me) with an rg-6 run of less than 50 feet - do you think an inline amp will be needed?

thanks again

jim

Nitewatchman

07-07-04, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by jim tressler
do you think an inline amp will be needed?

jim

Probably not - You'll just have to try it and see if the preamp helps or not - I'd try it w/o the amp first. You can split the signal(to multiple TV's/etc) as much as you want, BTW -- But with every split comes about 3.5db of signal loss, a preamp can recover those losses but it can't get you more actual signal AT the antenna(hopefully you'll have more than enough there).

------------------------------------------------------------

Dimitriz,

That antenna is also known as the "Silver Sensor". Good choice -- let us know how it goes.

jim tressler

07-08-04, 11:13 PM

well.. finally got my hd directv reciever.. hughes model.. so far so good.. just no high def tv yet.. lol (long story) - anyway I got it all up and running and was able to get all the cincinnati locals with rabbit ears (not very good signal strength - but good enough to see a picture most of the time) - for some reason the directv installer brought me an antenna (winegard sensar? - http://www.winegard.com/offair/sensar.htm) .. it was free - so for shi*s and giggles I may hook it up to see what happens.. thanks to all of you for your help - I will report back when I get things set

jim

Jon

07-09-04, 07:06 AM

I live in Xenia and I've recently noticed a drop in signal quality from channel 12.

Anyone else seeing this? If so what happened? I checked my signal from channel 5 and it is rock solid which was the case with channel 12.

Thanks,
John

Dimitriz

07-09-04, 07:47 AM

JFYI, I hooked up my new Sanyo TV to the TWC line and was able to pick up about 10 local HD channels 5,9 and 12, no FOX :(, and numerous PBS, etc....
My TV is WS and has a built in HD tuner, but none of the channels filled the whole screen. 5 and 12 were in 1080i and 9 was in 720p, the rest looked like 4:3 in 480p if I remember correctly.
I might try unhooking the TWC HD box from my TV downstairs to test it on this new TV to see if it will make any difference.

DrDon

07-09-04, 08:22 AM

John..

When I looked, last night, WKRC-DT was still full scale, here. Jeff could better tell you, but I'd guess - at your distance - it could be a weather issue. Put a front in the right place, and a distant station on 31 could knock WKRC-DT down for you.

Nitewatchman

07-09-04, 12:22 PM

Could be I suppose but I Haven't seen a lot of "unusual" tropo recently, although late Monday night there was a decent opening(mostly from SW) and I had a couple of the Nashville, TN DT's in here and managed to pull in WAFF 48(analog) Huntsville, AL after WCET went down for the night. I did notice WANE 15 analog in FT Wayne was also booming in here for a while that night -- I aimed the antenna that way and checked 31 (WANE-DT is on 31) but all I got was a solid signal from WKRC-DT off the side/back side of the antenna. I'd think WANE-DT/WJW-DT Cleveland would probably be the 2 most likely culprits for Co-channel interference to WKRC-DT -- Although I wouldn't think it would be anything "continuous" from Xenia.

We've had some pretty wild E-skip openings the last few days though -- Effecting lo-VHF+FM, and for a few minutes in some locations on late tuesday afternoon, even up into High-VHF TV band. Today, Was listening to KAFX 95.5, Diboll, TX(KFOX) just before 11am here.

Here's a couple recent DX screenshots I've taken the past few days(Sorry, I didn't think to get pics of the Nashville Digitals as I've seen them before) .. At upper left -- During Tuesday's E-skip opening to the NE -- WFSB 3, Hartford, CT(sorry, too much overscan on that 1980's model TV w mechanical tuner), Lower Left is a poor pic of WNBC 4, NYC making it through WCMH 4 Columbus(It was fun watching/listening to the NY local news on tue) ... Upper R - WSAV 3, Savannah, GA during a E-skip opening on Sunday ... At right, WEHT 25 Evansville, IN makes it through WBQC 25 Cincinnati via tropo on Monday night :

DrDon

07-10-04, 03:37 PM

FWIW, I called WLWT at around 3PM and the Busch race is now in 16:9. Dayton is still 4:3. Someone else can call WKEF <g>.

Doc

zekyl

07-11-04, 11:43 AM

Just wanted to let you all know my site is down for a bit. Having some server technical difficulties.

Nitewatchman

07-11-04, 03:17 PM

I missed it yesterday and only have time to take a peek today, but I think NBC 16x9 SD Nascar on WLWT-DT/WKEF-DT today looks a tad better than Nascar via Fox WS.

On another note - Did WKRC-DT run HD-one "Raiders of Lost Ark" in HD yesterday afternoon? I didn't get to check it out, but noticed it wasn't there Fri or sat night at 8pm, and that it (SD on 12 analog anyway) was scheduled for airing yesterday afteroon.

DrDon

07-11-04, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
... I think NBC 16x9 SD Nascar on WLWT-DT/WKEF-DT today looks a tad better than Nascar via Fox WS. Think that might have something to do with NBC using the usual HD distribution versus Fox's anamorphic system? Given the fact that most of the cameras would need to be wireless (and, therefore, SD) for most NASCAR tracks, I think they did the right thing in passing widescreen versus 4:3. A step in the right direction.

Plus, I didn't have to call anybody, today <g>.

Doc

1450kHz

07-11-04, 10:31 PM

On another note - Did WKRC-DT run HD-one "Raiders of Lost Ark" in HD yesterday afternoon? I didn't get to check it out, but noticed it wasn't there Fri or sat night at 8pm, and that it (SD on 12 analog anyway) was scheduled for airing yesterday afteroon.

Nope. I checked and it was SD. Ironically enough, WBDT in Dayton was running the same movie at the same time (but it was at a different portion of the movie when I compared the two).

Nitewatchman

07-11-04, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by DrDon
Think that might have something to do with NBC using the usual HD distribution versus Fox's anamorphic system? Given the fact that most of the cameras would need to be wireless (and, therefore, SD) for most NASCAR tracks, I think they did the right thing in passing widescreen versus 4:3. A step in the right direction.

WAG -- I'd think so ... Although I have to say I'm still a little confused as to why it looked noticably better, though -- And also why the scripted stuff looks Sooo much better(IMO) in Fox WS than the live sports do .... I would have thought NBC SD 16x9/Fox WS for NASCAR would have pretty much looked the same PQ wise -- Especially since we have WXIX-DT upconverting to 1080i .... I'm thinking perhaps the upconversion to 1080i at the Network Level had something to do with it -- If Fox ever sends SD 16x9 upconverted to 720p via their new HD system(when they get it done and all the splicers installed) -- It might be interesting to see what THAT looks like

I'd love it if whenever possible (even with say, local news or other local programming - With the analog getting a 4x3 "center cut" from the 16x9) they would do 16x9 --- Sent in a 16x9 ATSC format of course -- I know its a necessary evil for many reasons(mainly that it's unfortunetly still a 4x3 NTSC SD "world" I suppose) currently, but I have to sigh when I see 16x9 programming(Commercials, PBS 16x9 programs on 4x3 SD services, ER/etc) letterboxed in pretty much the lowest rez available(don't have my calucaltor out, but probably something like about 350~400 lines Horizontal resolution)inside a 4x3 ATSC format .... Or even worse, letterboxed AND pillarboxed within a 16x9 ATSC format ...

Then again, there is often probably that little "anamorphic" issue too .. er, 16x9 NTSC vs 4x3 NTSC video for those who perfer different "semantics" .. along with the issues involved concerning different pixel ratios(H:V)) ... For instance I've seen quite a few 16x9 promos, and even a educational series on Ohio(authors I think) that was produced as 16x9, but was aired as 4x3 "weirdscreen" by ThinkTV program services --- Even from the ANALOG station where the educational program mentioned is concerned(I've seen it a couple of times on WPTD 16 analog at 2:30~3pm on weekday afternoons)--Yes, the ThinkTV logo is supposed to contain a circle, not a shape like a Egg sitting on its end ;) -- I guess it is pretty cool though on a 16x9 display when that happens to be able to "stretch" even the ANALOG out, and get proper 16x9 video from a NTSC station, rather than a couple hundred lines less resolution with letterboxing ... Of course, if you've got "Plain old TV(4x3)" you're just stuck with incorrect AR and "tall skinny people" when that happens ... ThinkTV+Fox "weirdscreen" from WXIX isn't the only place I've seen it either ... Some months ago, I had seen a late night show (sort of funky, local Northern Miami Valley talent show special) run on WDTN on WHIO that had been SHOT in 16x9, but was airing in 4x3 ....

Oh, well, I guess we've been stuck in a 4x3 world so long it will be a while(if ever) before everyone "really" figures out the "AR issues" when something other than square pixels and HD, or "plain ol' 4x3 SD video" is involved .... I hope they do figure it out though ... It's bad enough when they sometimes "squeeze in" graphics on bottom of screen without properly adjusting the AR for the video being shown above it (I guess there are some good signs though .. for instance, WKEF/WRGT news USED to have that issue with their ticker/etc, but they fixed it quite some time ago) ... I'd hate to be seeing weirdscreen every now and then for the next 20 years or so ....

Ok, sorry for blabbering -- enough with my AR rantings -- don't know HOW I got off on that tangent ;)

---------------------------------------

Originally posted by 1450khz

Nope. I checked and it was SD. Ironically enough, WBDT in Dayton was running the same movie at the same time (but it was at a different portion of the movie when I compared the two).

Thanks ... I thought It did look really good in OAR a couple summers ago when WCPO-DT/ABC aired it in HD(There was no WDTN-DT on air at that time). WBDT/DT has also carried Paramount's HD-One movie package for quite some time(SD airings only of course) ... I wish their digital would upgrade to HD "soon" as well .. WWHO-DT Is the other one in our area that has the HD-One package, and I believe WWHO-DT actually does air all the HD versions. I know they also used to have 2 HD airings of each HD-One movie, one being a very late night airing, which I caught a couple of times last summer(one of thse being "Foul Play", as I recall) when WKRC-DT missed the HD airing and conditions were good enough I could pull in WWHO-DT ..

Dimitriz

07-13-04, 07:42 AM

Just got my Silver Sensor last night. :)
Needless to say it gave me a GREAT signal to FOX-19, unlike any other amplified (or unamplified) antenna that I have tried. Since it's a UHF only antenna it made a nice difference in all UHF channels, and it did OK in VHF..., however is it possible for me to add an antenna in the attick and then combine the signal (from the attick antenna and Silver Sensor) into 1 cable??? I am a n00b when it comes to this so.... feel free to slap me .. hehehe

BTW, Fox19 News stretched to fit screen, is that normal for them to do?

Thanks

jim tressler

07-13-04, 07:53 AM

Thanks to everyone and their input I now have local hdtv!! I had planned on getting a deep fringe rat shack antenna and putting it in the attic - but when directv came to install the high def dish and ird they brought, free of charge to me, a Winegard Sensar antenna - its a cool looking antenna thats about 1 foot long and about 3 feet wide - http://www.winegard.com/offair/sensar.htm - i was skeptical so I tried it in the basement and got a really good signal - so I took it outside at ground level and got a great signal - so I decided to mount it on the peak of my garage - about 20 feet off the ground - very easy mount as the directv installer gave me an extra dish mount - hooked it up and got excellent reception from the Cincinnati locals. Here is my signal strength as of this am on my Hughes HTl-HD ird

WLWT - 95
WKRC - 82
WCET - 89
WCPO - 87
WCVN - 40
WPTO - 75
WXIX - 81
WSTR - 60

I checked sunday night as the storm was over the antennas and my signal strength was about the same.. Question - when is reception impaired the most? How much of an effect will weather have on the signals? Should I try to tweak it out a little more?

Thanks for everyons advice so far!!

Jim

Nitewatchman

07-13-04, 12:12 PM

Dimitriz,

Yes, it's possible to Combine a VHF antenna with the Silver sensor+use the same feedline -- I had thought the Silver sensor came with a VHF antenna input you could use? IF not, you would need to use a VHF/UHF combiner/joiner such as CM#0549 -- Radio shack has one too, but I can't think of the part # presently. A "Rabbit ear" VHF antenna will probably be sufficent for you. Keep in mind, Except for WCPO-DT on VHF 10(ABC Cincy -- 9-x) all the Cincinnati(and Dayton for that matter) digital stations currently broadcast on UHF -- WLWT-DT 35 (NBC Cincy) shows up on your receiver as 5-1 as they send out info so it will remap to 5-1 to be "next to" it's analog station #, even though they are really transmitting on UHF channel 35. Same with WKRC-DT 31(12-1).

Because of the way Fox sends its digital programming(including Fox WS) to its affiliates("basically" it is "anamoprhic" 16x9 480i - Just like anamorphic DVD -- Fox ads the black "sidebars" for 4x3 programming at the Network level), WXIX-DT has to switch between a certian setting on their Format/AR converter to send proper aspect ratio for (1) Fox Programming and (2) Local/Syndicated programming. Sometimes, they don't get that "switch"/button flipped correctly(I noticed that was the case during Fox 19 news at 10 when I looked last night too), or it might be a few minutes ... You'll notice during Fox programming when they have it set correctly FOR Fox programming, the locally inserted ads will be "stretched" to 16x9. This will no longer be an issue once Fox starts sending HD+WXIX-DT gets the Splicer installed.

Originally posted by jim tressler
Question - when is reception impaired the most? How much of an effect will weather have on the signals? Should I try to tweak it out a little more?

You guys ask tough questions sometimes ;)

Weather or anything else really(except changes at the transmitting facility or on the receiving end) doesn't really have much(key word being "much") effect on the local(Key word being "Local") signals. Lightning is a source of impulse noise interference(as are many man-made sources - Ignition systems in vehicles, electric motors/etc), and a nearby strike can cause a dropout, especially given a weak signal from the station -- Impulse noise effects VHF more than UHF, and VHF Channels 2-6(2-4 especially) much more so than channels 7-13.

However, People who are using indoor antennas that aren't close enough to the towers/etc, or even if you have an outdoor antenna but are in a "fringe area" ---and, who may be only getting a few db of signal over the threshold necessary for Good DTV reception(or are just at that threshold), or people who are having a lot of multipath problems(uncorrectable multipath is seen by the DTV receiver as "noise", just as any interfererence, including NTSC analog signals is just seen as "noise" by the receiver) are probably effected more by weather+seasons -- or at least folks with these sorts of installations may "percieve" effects from the weather/etc. probably moreso than is really the case .... Snow on roof, Leaves on trees/etc can attunuate the signal a small bit or change the multipath echoes a bit. Also, The higher the frequency(RF Channel) the more attenuation you get from Tree leaves/etc.

What can be a problem at times is enhanced signal propagation via "tropospheric ducting" or Tropo Scatter : "Tropo" for short --- (Tropo scatter allways happens to some extent at all times, and is the reason why "RF line of sight" - the "radio horizon" on VHF/UHF is FARTHER than optical line of sight ...) --- "enhanced" Tropo is solely weather related phenomna, and often involve radiational cooling, or Frontal passages -- basically, tempurature inversions and temp/humidity factors cause the "air" in certian low levels of the atmosphere(below 6 miles) to sometimes have a higher "refractive index" which allows signals to be "bent" well beyond curvarture of the Earth, rather than those portions of the signals escaping into space as is "normal'. This can bring in distant signals(sometimes at quite high "levels" - Especially via Tropo ducting, although the "norm" is for signals via tropo scattering effects to be weak) normally out of reach beyond curvature of Earth - If those signals are on the same frequency the locals are on, they can, obviously interfere with reception. There is a better explanation of "tropo" and other modes of Signal propagation(Such as Sporadic E propagation(E-skip, or Es), which only effects lo-VHF (TV ch 2-6), FM broadcast band, and very, very rarely sometimes Hi-VHF TV(7-13)) on VHF/UHF (Including how local reception works) in the "Signal Propagation" section at following site: http://www.dxfm.com

Especially being that the Sensar is a "bi-directional" design, signals off the "back side" from you location could especially potentially cause some co-channel interference(CCI) issues, and especially so given your location+direction to Cincy/Columbus, Ohio Towers, as there are some Columbus, Ohio stations operating on the same frequencies as Cincinnati Stations. WBNS 10/WCPO-DT 10, WTTE 28/ WPTO-DT 28, WOSU 34/WCET-DT 34. If the local signal is strong enough though, chances are good that at least a good percentage(hopefully allways) of the time, the local signal will be strong enough to overcome the more distant, occasional co-channel interference. The unfortunate part here however is just how close Columbus is to Cincinnati, and it probably wouldn't take much in the way of enhanced propagation for you to see the Columbus stations. In fact, I'd guess you are probably "getting" a "bit" of signal from the Columbus stations at all times adding to the noise level, even if it isn't enough to actually let you "see" them ... You might need a non-screen muting TV(one the shows "snow" or very weak signals on a "empty" channel), but I'd be surprised if you weren't getting WCMH 4(analog) Columbus to some extent, at least most of the time as well.

Unfortunetly, the amount of spectrum(channels) available to TV stations is so scarace (during DTV transistion especially), that stations have to be "squeezed in" quite close together to make them all fit(the full service stations anyway, not enough room for the LP stations to have a 2nd digital channel assignment). Things will get better in this regard after analog shut off -- At least, lets hope thats the case, if FCC allows unlicensed part 15 devices on so- called "vacant" TV channels IMO we're probably in for a real mess .... IMO BPL will really cause a mess on HF(shortwave/ham/etc.) and possibly Lo-VHF TV/DTV as well.

Anyhow -- I wouldn't worry about it too much though -- The Sensar outside is probably going to work better than anything you could put indoors. Other than to "tweak things" as you say to make sure antenna is orientated for best signal(the analogs can help there) and in a "sweet spot" for good reception -- Or, if you're using the GS1000A (the non amplified version) adding a preamp MAY improve things a bit if you should run into some "dropouts" from WCVN or WSTR .... Otherwise, If you need more signal, or if Co-channel interference does turn out to be an issue at times, You would probably need to get a more directional(to reject co-channel signals coming in from different directions -- such as Columbus), higher gain antenna(such as say, the VU90 - Which is a SMALL VHF/UHF combo meant for relatively strong signal areas)+install it outdoors in order to improve things.

I don't know about every model of receiver out there, but keep in mind, even though it might say "signal strength", in the vast majority of cases(again don't know about the Hughes HTL-HD) the "meters" on our receivers for the most part actually tell us very little about how strong the signal is -- It is more of a "signal quality" reading that tells how easy it is for the receiver to decode the datastream ... You could get a low reading and still have a strong signal from the local station due to interference/multipath issues, or you could have a weak signal(more prone to dropouts due to various issues than a actual stronger signal would be) and get high readings off the receiver(except when you're having the dropouts). The actual "signal strentgh" from the local station involved really doesn't change -- unless they change their antenna/transmitter/etc, or you get a bad connection in your feedline/etc.

I would imagine though from your location+given that you have the antenna outside that it is probably giving you "somewhat" of an indication that WSTR/WCVN signals are a bit weaker than the others --- In other words --- If you can improve the numbers -- Great -- but if you can't or don't want to, I wouldn't worry about it as long as you are getting good, dropout free reception. If you end up getting some dropouts on WSTR/WCVN, its probably the case that if you could get a bit more signal from those stations(with a higher gain, more directional antenna/etc - or more power from WSTR-DT - which will eventually happen) the dropouts would probably go away.

Theoretically, the threshold for Good DTV reception is 15.3db of Signal over noise(somewhere between 16~19db of signal over noise is probably more of a "real world" practial figure), and theoretically If you have that, then reception isn't going to get "better" beyond that point .. BUT -- since the "noise floor" can change due to various issues(such as co-channel interference), IMO, it isn't all that bad of an idea to have a little "extra insurance"(more signal) .... And, I'd WAG you probably have plenty of extra insurance, except perhaps where WCVN-DT/WSTR-DT are concerned. Keep in mind, WSTR is at Low power presently -- and, also its directional antenna pattern doesn't favor the E/SE, and to a lesser extent your direction --- NE ... WCVN/DT is on a tower much shorter than the others, and, in Mainville you are probably just a tad "outside"(or near the edge) of its predicted coverage area -- So am I, of course --- By about 12 miles --- But I get them fine, although it takes a hi-gain directional antenna w/preamp mounted on a 40 Foot tower ;) ...

Only one time can I recall(in Feb 2002) here did WNWO 24 Toledo blast in strong enough off the back side of the antenna to cause a dropout or two to WCVN-DT -- Although I see BOTH WCVN-DT AND WNWO fairly often at the SAME TIME(given proper antenna aiming of course) ... If my antenna was less directional, however, I'd likely have WNWO causing problems to WCVN-DT more often ...If it had better directivity, the one time I got dropouts probably wouldn't have occured(even though that night WNWO was pretty much a "city grade" signal here). Only once have I seen WBNS 10 Columbus cause a dropout to WCPO-DT, although Just about 100% of the time my analog receiver will "lock on" to WBNS's analog signal if I aim the antenna towards Columbus(I do recall we had a fellow from Hillsboro here once however who, it seemed no matter what he did could not cure his Co-channel interference problem from WBNS 10 to WCPO-DT 10) .... I've also already seen WTTE 28 "through" WPTO-DT's "DT snow" several times, but with proper antenna aiming+directional antenna, WPTO-DT(so far anyway) has never dropped below 95% on the "signal quality meter" ... WSKO 29, Somerset, KY has come close to causing Dropouts to WXIX-DT, but its never happened -- Not much I can do about that, since both stations are in the SAME direction ... "Way back when" WCET-DT was running 7KW ERP, on a couple of occasions, I had CCI issues with them and WBKI 34, Cambellsville, KY(in same direction from me). Never been an issue again since WCET-DT went to 215KW ERP -- What did my "signal meter" on my DTC-100 say when WCET-DT was at 7KW ERP? "88"(well, except when it was bouncing around and was generally lower when noise from WBKI was coming in via tropo) -- What does it say now? "88" (That should give you an indication of how these things aren't really "signal strength" meters) .... By far, the most difficult Co-channel interference issue(for many, many years) I've had concerns WPXK 54 analog/WCVN 54 analog -- Even though its over 200 miles away, WPXK is Up on a High Mountain near Jellico, TN and in the Same direction as WCVN, and a little "tropo enhancement" can sometimes go a long way --- Although I haven't seen it much lately for some reason(well, I do see some "hints" of slight CCI(intermittant horizontal lines, basically) to WCVN 54 analog from likely, WPXK pretty much on a daily basis) -- on average of about 5 or 6 times per year, WPXK has wiped out WCVN competely for hours on end and instead of KET I was getting PAX on 54 with some interference from WCVN ....

Probably more than you wanted to know, and of course, if it ain't broke - don't fix it <g> --- Oh -- BTW -- I remember first seeing the Sensar going on RV's in the Late 70's. Probably a good solution to the WAF for both VHF/UHF(although I'd guess its actual performance especially on UHF probably isn't so great), so you can get the antenna outside if it works "well enough" and you're in a relatively strong signal area. Probably works better even on UHF than the CM3010, I'd think, I just hope you don't have too much problem with Co-channel interference from the Columbus stations, given its "bi-directional" design.

Update: I'm just curious, did you/have you had any luck with the Dayton stations? You'd probaby need to aim the antenna approx. NW/NNW for Dayton, though.

jim tressler

07-13-04, 02:39 PM

Thanks Jeff.. that was a hell of a response.. Are all the cincinnati locals at full power (except Star 64)??

Nitewatchman

07-13-04, 03:35 PM

Jim,

WCPO-DT 10 Fully licensed power (13.7KW ERP @ 1578FT ASL(above sea level) - (Note: Takes MUCH less power to cover same area on VHF)

WCVN-DT 24 at fully licensed power (53.5 KW ERP @ 1099FT ASL
)

WPTO-DT 28 At fully licensed power via PTA(program test authority)(400 KW ERP @ 1614FT ASL) (Note: WPTO-DT on WXIX tower)

WKRC-DT 31 At fully Licensed power (800KW ERP @ 1630FT ASL )

WSTR-DT 33 At Low Power - STA(Special Temp authority) (17.1KW ERP @ 1767 FT ASL) - Directional antenna doesn't favour SE, E + to a certian extent NE) - Full Power CP (Construction permit from FCC) is for 500 KW ERP

WCET-DT 34 at "Medium Power" STA (215KW ERP at 1761FT ASL) - Full power CP is for 500KW ERP) - Note: Directional antenna doesn't favor the South. WCET/DT + WLWT/DT on same tower.

WLWT-DT 35 at quite high power STA (512 KW ERP @ 1705FT ASL) - Full power CP is for 1000KW ERP.

Update: Oops, Left one out earlier :

WXIX-DT 29 - At Fully Licensed power - 227KW ERP @ 1660FT ASL (They do have a application on file with FCC to increase power to 600KW ERP, but it was "dismissed" in June of 2003)

---------------------------------

Nitewatchman

07-13-04, 03:41 PM

I just caught a bit of the Ohio authors program on WPTO-DT 14-3, and while it looks like they are trying to fix their AR issues with some 16x9 programming, it still isn't quite right.

In attached screenshot from just before 3pm today :

At top: Is how they sent the Ohio Author's program today "within" the 4x3 480i ATSC format on 14-3, and this is how it looks on a 4x3 Display, or on a 16x9 display with "sidebars" added at the display to properly display AR for 4x3 programming/ATSC format - It would look like this on the analog as well, if sent this way. As you can see, they have letterboxed it -- however it is still essentially 16x9 video that is being "squeezed into" a 4x3 format .. The difference now is, a portion of the bottom and top(where the black bars are) of the "original" 16x9 frame is being "cut off" by the letterbox bars, - This was more evident in other parts of the program where certian parts of graphics/text that were in the "black bar" area were being "cut off". I don't know quite how to say this, but I *think* just adding in letterbox bars necessary for 16x9 to properly display in a 4x3 frame is a somewhat "independant" process from formatting the 16x9 Video for proper display in a 4x3 format. With 16x9 NTSC video(I.e. like what is on a "anamorphic DVD") (or 480p 16x9 ATSC format) -- For proper AR -- The Pixels are wider than they are tall ... If you just "squeeze that into" a 4x3 area, those pixels will then become taller than they are wide and therefore improper AR will result.

At bottom: I have "stretched" a frame from 14x3 using my 16x9 display's Native "Wide(16x9 mode) -- Thus removing the grey sidebars added by the display for proper display of 4x3 programming within a 4x3 ATSC(or NTSC) format. As you can see, this does display the Ohio author's program in proper aspect ratio rather than the "squeezed" manner in which it is being broadcast, but of course I'm still missing the top+bottom parts of the frame which are being "hid" by the black "letterboxing" bars - Therefore resulting in a "apparent" AR of approx 2.35:1. On previous occasions, If I did this when this program aired, the screen would be filled(properly) with the 16x9 frame.

Dimitriz

07-15-04, 08:36 AM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
[B]Dimitriz,

Yes, it's possible to Combine a VHF antenna with the Silver sensor+use the same feedline -- I had thought the Silver sensor came with a VHF antenna input you could use? IF not, you would need to use a VHF/UHF combiner/joiner such as CM#0549 -- Radio shack has one too, but I can't think of the part # presently. A "Rabbit ear" VHF antenna will probably be sufficent for you. Keep in mind, Except for WCPO-DT on VHF 10(ABC Cincy -- 9-x) all the Cincinnati(and Dayton for that matter) digital stations currently broadcast on UHF -- WLWT-DT 35 (NBC Cincy) shows up on your receiver as 5-1 as they send out info so it will remap to 5-1 to be "next to" it's analog station #, even though they are really transmitting on UHF channel 35. Same with WKRC-DT 31(12-1).

Thanks.

BTW, Silver Sensor is a UHF only antenna.
Today I am going to go and return that Jensen antenna to BestBuy, do you have any recommendations for something I can put in the attic? SS does provide a better signal, but it still drops out every few minutes. Maybe I should just get an amplifier for it?
Is Fox45 coming from Dayton? I get better reception on that then Fox19 one, and it broadcasts in HD to. I only watched part of King of the Hill (10-15min) before it started dropping out badly.

Thanks

Nitewatchman

07-15-04, 12:26 PM

Dimitriz,

Yes Silver sensor is a UHF only antenna. I had thought I'd read somewhere that it had a input (i.e. connection) that allowed you to hook up a VHF antenna TO it w/o the need to use a seperate VHF/UHF combiner/joiner, but I could be wrong.

As for a "better" antenna for the attic -- What you would probably want is the biggest VHF/UHF combo(RS VU90, VU120, CM3016, CM3030, ETC) you can get that will fit+still allow you to posistion it for proper aiming. Or, you could get a bit higher performance UHF only antenna such as CM4228/CM4248, perhaps even CM3021(among many others - assuming those will fit through your "attic opening" as well), and combine it with a VHF antenna. Hard to say but the silver sensor+ Rabbit ears might work better placed downstairs near a window that faces the towers in question though -- again Hard to say - You just have to try it - Many different factors can affect reception in any given circumstance, and especially from indoors. (Nearby terrain or buildings in the signal path, the materials used in your residence's construction/etc/etc - remember -- everything within about 10 feet or so(a bit more on VHF) in the direction the antenna is aimed becomes somewhat "conencted" to the antenna and effects the antenna's performance, and also, having the antenna indoors attenuates signal by at least 15db(probably more) -- which is a LOT.

And Yes, you could try a preamp - it might help and it might make things worse. Keep in mind -- again -- the amp is not going to actually get you more signal at the antenna -- you would want a higher gain antenna for that -- also, an antenna with better directivity(rejecting signal off the side/back), along with proper aiming towards the transmitting towers of course) is often helpful as it helps to reduce multipath and interferece, one of which I'd guess are likely to be causing your dropout issues.

A preamp can be a problem however as it can be overloaded by strong signals(they don't necessarily have to be TV stations, as preamps are very broadband). Another potential beneifit from a preamp is if you use seperate VHF/UHF antennas -- a number of preamps(such as the CM7777) come with seperate antenna inputs.

If you have access to an attic, perhaps you have access to a roof as well? Mounting antenna outdoors(with proper installation/grounding of course) would likely be a much better choice. Keep in mind, it is illegal for HOA's(or anyone else) to prevent you from putting an antenna(or dish) on the roof of property you control, except in some very "special" certian circumstances concerning housing on Military bases/etc. If the roof however is (in reality) a "common area", then they might be able to keep you from it. Do a search for "OTARD" on AVSforum or see here for more info:

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

Yes, WRGT-DT 30 (Analog on Channel 45) Fox is in Dayton. It's FOX Widescreen(480p) upconverted to 720p, its not quite HD yet. Should be HD in 2 or 3 months.

Keep in mind, Dayton Towers are towards your North, Cincinnati Towers are towards your south. Therefore, if you want to receive stations from BOTH cities, you'll likely need to reorient antenna for Dayton or Cincinnati stations, or you'll need a rotor(probably won't work from attic) or seperate antennas(on seperate feedlines -+ switch between them ith a A/B switch near the receiver). There are really no "good" omni-directional antennas -- Especially If you could get it outside however, hard to say but a antenna like Jim is using (the bi-directional sensar) might work for Dayton/Cincy for you, although its probably a longshot and the Dayton stations might still require a bit better antenna.

CPanther95

07-15-04, 01:50 PM

I'm trying to update a master list of OTA HD stations. Cincinnati has not yet been updated. Can somebody that knows what networks are broadcasting in HD or HD/DD5.1 go to the following link and post the info?

National List of Stations Broadcasting HD / DD5.1 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=422073)

Just need the Network, Re-mapped Channel#, and if they're DD 5.1. For any of the networks (ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, UPN & WB) that are currently broadcasting in HD.

Thanks....

jim tressler

07-15-04, 05:04 PM

I will have the av reciever hooked up this weekend and will check it out for you

jim

Nitewatchman

07-15-04, 11:13 PM

WCVN-DT 24 (KET/PBS HD Covington, KY(6 miles from Downtown Cincy and the other cincy towers) on KET4 (54-4 remap - HD 8-11pm Mon-Sat, 7-11pm Sun) HAS passed through DD 5.1 for PBS HD before .. Only Once that I've noticed, during the Farm Aid Soundstage special around the holidays last year ... There were some comments(probably early in this thread or a earlier one) about it, including comments from William Smith(KET Engineer).

WPTD-DT 58 (PBS HD/ThinkTV) Dayton has also passed DD 5.1 through before for PBS HD channel (16-6 remap - 6pm-6am nightly) -- ONCE that I've noticed, during one of last summer's HD Soundstages. There are some comments about it(including from Charles Cole at ThinkTV, who told us about the DD 5.1 test) from around that time in either the Summer 03 Cincy thread or the Dayton thread from around that time.

WCET-DT 34 (PBS HD Cincinnati) (48-1 remap HD 8-11pm nightly)HD service is allways in DD 5.1 mode, but its just straight stereo out of front L+R channels unless the programming is actually produced in DD 5.1.

WDTN-DT 50 (ABC HD Dayton - 2-1 remap) is allways DD 5.1 during ABC HD programming, DD 2.0 otherwise.

I know that during the season finale of HD "American Dreams", NBC did a DD 5.1 test(I think they may have sent it over the network, but WNBC-DT may have been the only ones to know about it), but I was at the wrong setup to check to see whether or not WLWT-DT 35(5.1 remap - NBC HD Cincy) or WKEF-DT 51 NBC HD Dayton(51.1 - NO PSIP remap)was sending DD 5.1 or not.

Not sure, but don't think WKRC-DT 31 (CBS HD Cincy 12-1 remap) or WHIO-DT (41-1 CBS HD Dayton - NO Remap via PSIP) has DD 5.1 capability Yet, and of course WSTR-DT 33(WB Cincy - 64-1 remap )WBDT-DT 18(WB Dayton - 26.1 remap ) doesn't even have HD yet - neither does WKOI-DT 39(TBN - 43-1 remap "sometimes" ), obviously ...

Neither Fox - WRGT-DT 30-1 (no PSIP remap)Fox WS Dayton/WXIX-DT 29 (19-1 remap )Fox WS Cincy has DD 5.1 capability, and of course they will have DD 5.1 via the splicer system "before too long" during Fox HD programming ...

As Doc Noted, WCPO-DT 10 (9-1 remap, although not getting a remap here from them the past few days - ABC HD Cincinnati) doesn't have DD 5.1 yet, but has plans to add it.

I've personally yet to see any HD programming from WPTO-DT 28 (ThinkTV/PBS Cincy- Oxford) (14-6 remap for HD subchannel) as of yet, but they do have a HD subchannel up(blank whenever I've seen it so far). Note that while the analog WPTO 14 broadcasts from Oxford, Ohio, the Digtial is on WXIX Cincy tower, and they've only been on air for a few weeks now --WPTO-DT is a stone's throw away from one of our other Cincy PBS affiliates(WCET-DT) -- and only 6 miles away from the 3rd Cincy area PBS HD affiliate (WCVN-DT/KET/PBS in N KY - KET is a KY Statewide KET/PBS Network, they have 16 DTV transmitters on air statewide, all of which do PBS HD, but all those XMTR's certianly aren't all in Lexington as some "lists" seem to suggest ;-)....

Sorry to repeat what others have said here or elsewhere, and sorry its not really possible to put it in the "simple list" format you're probably looking for, but I think I covered all 15 DTV stations that are on the air(all which have DTV channel assignments from FCC currently are on air) in Cincinnati/Dayton -- 12 of the 15 have HD or Fox Widescreen(Again WBDT-DT/WSTR-DT WB Dayton/Cincy and WKOI-DT/TBN being the 3 that are missing HD presently), and most are "generally" receivable from both cities and most "outlying areas", as the Dayton/Cincy towers are only a little over 40 miles apart, with WKOI tower in Oxford(no, its not "really" in Richmond, IN, but almost might as well be with their LP STA and directional antenna pattern) being "sort of" in between Cincy/Dayton. Yes, including all the subchannels, I presently get something around 35 channels of OTA HD+DTV from Dayton/Cincinnati DTV stations ... 20+ of those being PBS ....

More info on the Cincy stations in the 2nd~4th or so posts at very beginning of this thread.

And of course, Specifications subject to change(and likely will here, there and everywhere at some point ..... ) w/o notice of course ;) -- For instance, WDTN, ABC Dayton is switching affiliation from ABC to NBC in September -- I don't think we know yet what affiliation(if any) the current NBC Dayton station(WKEF) will get, or what any of that "switching around" will mean for HD from them, or DD 5.1 .... About a Year ago, the Folks at WBDT(WB Dayton DID tell me at that time they would have WB HD at some point but they didn't have a "timeline" for HD, and at that time, they were looking at what equipment to purchase .... From info posted on AVS by Mark Aitken(MrDTV) from Sinclair, I can't say for certian WHEN WSTR-DT (WB Cincy) will upgrade to HD, only that it looks fairly certian that "someday" they will have WB HD ...

BTW, I DO try to keep the station info updated in the post near beginning of this thread (the 2nd or 3rd post) ....

HDTVChallenged

07-16-04, 01:56 AM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
WCVN-DT 24 (KET/PBS HD Covington, KY(6 miles from Downtown Cincy and the other cincy towers) on KET4 (54-4 remap - HD 8-11pm Mon-Sat, 7-11pm Sun) HAS passed through DD 5.1 for PBS HD before

No 5.1 on KET4 recently ... I'm sure William has a logical explaination.

1450kHz

07-16-04, 08:12 AM

My receiver does indicate how many channels of audio are coming in.

The answer for this area on 5.1 is:
WPTD Dayton: 5.1 rarely
WCET Cincy: 5.1 regularly
WCVN Covington: 5.1 sometimes
WDTN Dayton: 5.1 regularly (during ABC programming)

As for the rest, it's all 2.0.

Nitewatchman

07-16-04, 03:01 PM

1450khz,

You're doing awfully well reception wise if you're pulling in WCVN-DT solidly from Fairborn~Yellow Springs(55~60 miles or so to WCVN(Tower is in Taylor Mill, KY) -- I'd think) area ...

William Smith

07-16-04, 03:08 PM

We've got a problem with audio dropping out from PBS when passing 5.1. ( This occured after a software upgrade to the HD encoding system). If I re code it to 2/0 it doesn't drop out.

HDTVChallenged

07-16-04, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by William Smith
We've got a problem with audio dropping out from PBS when passing 5.1. ( This occured after a software upgrade to the HD encoding system). If I re code it to 2/0 it doesn't drop out.

Figured it was something like that ... I just wonder why it seems to work ok on WKMJ but not on the statewide ... Is WKMJ still using the previous software?

Nitewatchman

07-16-04, 10:23 PM

Hope I'm not butting in too much(I know William's busy) but FWIW, I would think WKMJ-DT would have to be using(these days anyway) different encoder than is used for the Statewide HD service.

HDTVChallenged

07-17-04, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
I would think WKMJ-DT would have to be using(these days anyway) different encoder than is used for the Statewide HD service.

... And you would be correct in your thinking :)

fgrogan

07-18-04, 03:36 PM

Hi neighbors,

Building a new home on RT 48 2-3 miles north of Loveland. I am doing the whole house low voltage prewire myself. I don't have a HDTV yet, i would hope to get one in the next 12 months or so (once moving/new house costs drop off some), but I am in to home theater and DirecTV with TiVo quite a bit. a few questions:

1) I am planning to get a HD DirecTV TiVo when I buy a HDTV next year and to support my current investment in SD Direct TiVo's I will be using a standard 3 LNB oval dish, 4 runs of rg6 and my existing 5x8 multi-switch.

question: I was planning to pull another rg6 for a future HDTV OTA antenna, it that enough? Or should I pull another rg6 cable and/or wire for a rotor system?

2) Still debating if I will put up a new dish myself or get DirecTV movers program to do it, but should i just bite the bullet and put up a HDTV antenna and be done with it? advice on an antenna would be great.

Thanks in advance

jim tressler

07-18-04, 10:15 PM

fgrogan - what subdivison? A friend of mine just moved into brandywine on the little miami (just off of butterworth) and we tried with rabit ears and got ok reception - so I think a small antenna in his case should be ok. heres an intersting thing I found today at the radio shack on Fields Ertle (in the walmart plaza) - they had a map of the cincinnati area (very detailed) and it listed the type of antenna you would need - its in the back were they have the antennas - walk to the back left (as you enter) and turn around you will see the antennas and the map is right there.

I live very near to the 22/3 and 48 intersection and I have a winegard sensar and it works great.

As far as the rg6 feeds - if your multiswitch is a 5x8 it should have an antenna input - it will combine the directv feed with the ota feed in the same cable - you can then use a diplexer on the other end to avoid another cable run. not sure on the roter

If you go with directv the movers program is a good deal - I just got the hd deal from them and they sent out an installer -i was skeptical but said ok even though I had heard some horor stories- but they assured me that this installer directly reported to them - and sure enough he did a hell of a job. Although I allready had the triple lnb dish up and locked he still redid all my connections with watertight ends and grounded every thing for me. you should be able to get a deal from directv if you have been a customer for over a year. good luck

jim

fgrogan

07-19-04, 12:03 AM

Originally posted by jim tressler
fgrogan - what subdivison? A friend of mine just moved into brandywine on the little miami (just off of butterworth) and we tried with rabit ears and got ok reception - so I think a small antenna in his case should be ok. heres an intersting thing I found today at the radio shack on Fields Ertle (in the walmart plaza) - they had a map of the cincinnati area (very detailed) and it listed the type of antenna you would need - its in the back were they have the antennas - walk to the back left (as you enter) and turn around you will see the antennas and the map is right there.

I live very near to the 22/3 and 48 intersection and I have a winegard sensar and it works great.

As far as the rg6 feeds - if your multiswitch is a 5x8 it should have an antenna input - it will combine the directv feed with the ota feed in the same cable - you can then use a diplexer on the other end to avoid another cable run. not sure on the roter

If you go with directv the movers program is a good deal - I just got the hd deal from them and they sent out an installer -i was skeptical but said ok even though I had heard some horor stories- but they assured me that this installer directly reported to them - and sure enough he did a hell of a job. Although I allready had the triple lnb dish up and locked he still redid all my connections with watertight ends and grounded every thing for me. you should be able to get a deal from directv if you have been a customer for over a year. good luck

jim

Thanks Jim. We are building in the Lanes End subdivision (very small, only 11 lots) off of Baxter Rd.

Great news on local reception and antenna's. I will check out the RS guide and map. Did you also look at www.antennaweb.org for your placement and recommended antenna? Your picking up just the Cincinnati stations I assume or also Dayton?

The rotor was just an idea if I wanted to try to pick up signal from many directions, but my primary interest is just the Cincinnati market so your antenna choice sounds great.

I am looking to possible use the 5th input on the MS, but was just curious what others had done. Since I am doing my own pre-wire I figured I'd be safe and run an extra one or two runs of rg6 for HDTV and whatever else I can think of. Do you also get FM off of your antenna?

Great news also on the HD install. My wife has told me there is no way she will let me up on the roof to install the new dish and I am going to agree with her this time. Figured I'd run the RG6 to the peak of the attic, do a nice exit to the outside and let the DirecTV install terminate the top end and set up the dish. Did he also mount your HD antenna? I have been a customer for 7+ so the movers package sounds great.

William Smith

07-19-04, 12:07 AM

Yes, WKMJ has the older encoder with the older software (which passes 5.1 just fine).

Dimitriz

07-19-04, 09:10 AM

Ohh, great :) I live in Brandywine, lol...

Originally posted by jim tressler
fgrogan - what subdivison? A friend of mine just moved into brandywine on the little miami (just off of butterworth) and we tried with rabit ears and got ok reception - so I think a small antenna in his case should be ok. heres an intersting thing I found today at the radio shack on Fields Ertle (in the walmart plaza) - they had a map of the cincinnati area (very detailed) and it listed the type of antenna you would need - its in the back were they have the antennas - walk to the back left (as you enter) and turn around you will see the antennas and the map is right there.

I live very near to the 22/3 and 48 intersection and I have a winegard sensar and it works great.

As far as the rg6 feeds - if your multiswitch is a 5x8 it should have an antenna input - it will combine the directv feed with the ota feed in the same cable - you can then use a diplexer on the other end to avoid another cable run. not sure on the roter

If you go with directv the movers program is a good deal - I just got the hd deal from them and they sent out an installer -i was skeptical but said ok even though I had heard some horor stories- but they assured me that this installer directly reported to them - and sure enough he did a hell of a job. Although I allready had the triple lnb dish up and locked he still redid all my connections with watertight ends and grounded every thing for me. you should be able to get a deal from directv if you have been a customer for over a year. good luck

jim

Dimitriz

07-19-04, 09:16 AM

jim tressler

07-19-04, 09:33 AM

lol.. funny dimitriz - not sure how your hoa will react - I do know that people in that subdivision are pretty social.. so who knows

Dimitriz

07-19-04, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by jim tressler
lol.. funny dimitriz - not sure how your hoa will react - I do know that people in that subdivision are pretty social.. so who knows

I might consider leaving it as is, really depends... going to wait until TWC adds Fox19 in September... after that I'll only need my SS to pickup is Dayton's Fox45 if I really "need" to watch it.

jim tressler

07-19-04, 11:40 AM

If you have been with directv for 7 years.. they will give you the world.. I got the 99 hd reciever from them - I think on the hd tivos they will give you a t $250 credit but you have to buy it on your own. You can probably get a 99 hd reciever if you wanted all with free install - just tell them that time warner has a great deal.. they will offer you alot to stay.

I went to antennaweb.org and it matched the radio shack map pretty well - it said that a few stations were purple - deep range that the sensar picks up fine. I can get the dayton stations very well it I rotate the antenna - but for now I have it locked onto Cincinnati. I may ad a rotor in the future. It helps that I am "comparably" high on a hill.

I ran 6 lines to the home theater in the basement when we finished it - you can never have enough :) so for now I just run the antenna directly to the hd reciever - if I wanted to I could add it to the powered multiswitch and just diplex it on the other end - but at this point I dont need the antenna. Just a side note.. the analog locals are prettty crappy - digital rocks. I think the antenna gets fm, but I have an old rca antanna that I hook into the onkyo and it works great for fm - pick up all the cincinnati fm stations as well as wtue out of dayton.

good luck

jim

Originally posted by fgrogan
Thanks Jim. We are building in the Lanes End subdivision (very small, only 11 lots) off of Baxter Rd.

Great news on local reception and antenna's. I will check out the RS guide and map. Did you also look at www.antennaweb.org for your placement and recommended antenna? Your picking up just the Cincinnati stations I assume or also Dayton?

The rotor was just an idea if I wanted to try to pick up signal from many directions, but my primary interest is just the Cincinnati market so your antenna choice sounds great.

I am looking to possible use the 5th input on the MS, but was just curious what others had done. Since I am doing my own pre-wire I figured I'd be safe and run an extra one or two runs of rg6 for HDTV and whatever else I can think of. Do you also get FM off of your antenna?

Great news also on the HD install. My wife has told me there is no way she will let me up on the roof to install the new dish and I am going to agree with her this time. Figured I'd run the RG6 to the peak of the attic, do a nice exit to the outside and let the DirecTV install terminate the top end and set up the dish. Did he also mount your HD antenna? I have been a customer for 7+ so the movers package sounds great.

Nitewatchman

07-19-04, 12:58 PM

Couple of items I just heard through the grapevine .....

#1). Sounds like WXIX most likely won't have The splicer installed by beginning of Fall season --- sounds like It probably won't happen until near end of the year.

So, the way it looks, if you want to see FOX HD this fall, IF you can get them, you'll want to tune to WRGT-DT 30 Fox Dayton(HD splicer was installed there in May, BTW), or potentially other Fox digital stations in nearby markets depending upon your location ... WRGT-DT has been in weirdscreen mode for past couple of days -- Which is NOT usual for them(at least so far), but hopefully -- Fox HD will "work" from them. I'd think it will, as long as they work it out so their autoswitcher can handle switching between Fox/HD and Local - my understanding is it shouldn't be difficult for them to set it up to work, anyway .. BTW, AR for anything coming via the splicer BTW is controlled by Fox, not the affiliate -- So, "weirdscreen" during Fox programming should be a thing of the past.

#2). Heard that WKRC-DT has asked for the necessary equipment to do DD 5.1 for sometime in 2005 --- Don't necessarily count on them getting it -- but, they have ASKED for it ....

jim tressler

07-19-04, 02:09 PM

who have they asked for it from?

1450kHz

07-19-04, 02:17 PM

Probably management. Meaning Cheap Channel. ;)

Nitewatchman

07-19-04, 02:47 PM

Another item just in from the "grapevine" ....

It's tentative currently so this might change, but as of right now, looks like WLWT-DT will only have HD Olympics coverage in Prime Time hours.

Dimitriz

07-19-04, 03:18 PM

I just got a message back from the Chief Engineer of WXIX-TV, and he said:

"I have not heard anything officially from FOX to that effect (delay of HD for Fox). WXIX is still waiting for FOX to install the new satellite antenna which is needed for us to receive HD programming from The FOX network. I hope to have this equipment installed by Mid August so the September HD rollout is still a possibility."

Nitewatchman

07-19-04, 04:01 PM

Dimitiriz,

Thanks for the info. We will see -- The info I posted above DID orginate from personel at WXIX as well(I got it Through a reliable 2nd source), whom should probably remain "unnamed" at this point :-) I'd think their CE (still Paul Smith I presume) would probably know more on this matter, however.

In addition to the info he provided concerning receiving the sat feed, did you happen to find out/get any idea or indication from him when the HD splicer system needed for FOX HD will be installed at WXIX, and/or when they will switch to sending 720p?

My understanding is - from the info posted by engineer's at Fox affiliates that post on AVS as well as from WRGT-DT engineer whom I was in contact with when the splicer was being installed there, they need to switch to 720p before the HD splicer can/will be installed by the install crews - And I'd think, obviously they'd need to be able to receive the feed to install/test the splicer system as well. I don't know about the Sat antenna, but the splicer itself is being installed not actually by Fox themselves but by a contractor's teams(Thomson if I recall correctly) - So don't know if they could do both of those things at the same time or not, could be a possibility though, I suppose.

Thanks,

Sea Ray

07-19-04, 11:43 PM

Originally posted by Dimitriz
I might consider leaving it as is, really depends... going to wait until TWC adds Fox19 in September... after that I'll only need my SS to pickup is Dayton's Fox45 if I really "need" to watch it.

Have you been told that TWC will add WXIX in Sept in time for football season and the World Series? That'd be great

Dimitriz

07-20-04, 07:05 AM

Originally posted by Sea Ray
Have you been told that TWC will add WXIX in Sept in time for football season and the World Series? That'd be great

Here is an earlier message I got from him also:

"Time Warner has chosen not to carry WXIX-DT on its digital tier because all programming on WXIX-DT is distributed in the 480p (both 4:3 and 16:9) format. TWC does not consider 480p an HD format and therefore is not willing to give up channel space for a standard definition digital channel. This Fall FOX and WXIX will begin transmission of shows produced and distributed in the 720p 16:9 format. At that time Time Warner Cable will begin carrying WXIX-DT on its Digital tier. Equipment upgrades are already begun and the roll out date is sometime in early September."

Nitewatchman

07-20-04, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by Dimitriz
TWC does not consider 480p an HD format and therefore is not willing to give up channel space for a standard definition digital channel.

That's been what they've(TW) been saying for a long time too. What is funny about it is, WRGT-DT Fox Dayton has been carried on TW Dayton/TW Western Ohio for almost 2 years now --- And all they were doing was 480i 4x3 SD until a few months back, when they started doing Fox Widescreen just before they had their upgrade for Fox HD ...

Also, it seems like TW Cincy carries all of the SD services from the local PBS Digitals ....

Anyhow, It will be interesting to see if TW picks up WXIX BEFORE they (actually) get the Fox HD upgrade. It seems to me it would make sense for them to add it ASAP, so everything is ready when they DO start sending FOX HD.

BTW, WXIX-DT upconverts to 1080i for broadcast currently, and for the last 4 years they've been on air. Currently, Fox distributes it's programming to digital affiliates(including Fox Widescreen) as 480i(not p) "anamorphic"(or in other words, 16x9 NTSC video -- "sidebars" are added at Network level for 4x3 programming). Normally, an affilate that is sending 480p "de-interlaces" the 480i at the affiliate level - and that's where the 480p comes from(and we often just call it 480p, or "ED" for enhanced definition for simplicity's sake), but I don't think that would be necessary at WXIX as they are sending a interlaced format(1080i) anyway.

DrDon

07-20-04, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
it seems like TW Cincy carries all of the SD services from the local PBS Digitals .... That's probably because they can write off any equipment and the channels count toward any "public service" committment that is part of their charter.

Doc <-- tongue planted firmly in cheek.

Nitewatchman

07-20-04, 01:01 PM

Doc -- Yeah.

What gets me is(and this is true in a "different way" for us OTA people As well), a number of the PBS SD services we get from 3 stations 6 miles or less apart are often running the SAME programming service at the same, exact time(CPB/Annenburg channel for instance - Note: understandable where KET is concerned, as they are running services which are statewide, and are serving areas where they do NOT have 4 PBS local stations ) ... Why have it using up bandwidth just once when the SAME programming can use up 3x as much bandwidth and count 3 times towards a cableco's public service commitment I suppose ....

Sea Ray

07-20-04, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman

BTW, WXIX-DT upconverts to 1080i for broadcast currently, and for the last 4 years they've been on air. Currently, Fox distributes it's programming to digital affiliates(including Fox Widescreen) as 480i(not p) "anamorphic"(or in other words, 16x9 NTSC video -- "sidebars" are added at Network level for 4x3 programming). Normally, an affilate that is sending 480p "de-interlaces" the 480i at the affiliate level - and that's where the 480p comes from(and we often just call it 480p, or "ED" for enhanced definition for simplicity's sake), but I don't think that would be necessary at WXIX as they are sending a interlaced format(1080i) anyway.

But when Fox goes HD it will be in 720p, correct? Seems like WXIX guessed wrong by upconverting to 1080i, a decision I assume was made before Fox national announced that it was going with the 720p standard.

jim tressler

07-20-04, 04:25 PM

according to my hughes htl-hd it says wxix 19 (19-1) is 480i .. does it change for primetime?

Nitewatchman

07-20-04, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by Sea Ray
But when Fox goes HD it will be in 720p, correct? Seems like WXIX guessed wrong by upconverting to 1080i, a decision I assume was made before Fox national announced that it was going with the 720p standard.

Yes, it will be 720p so the format they are using for upconverted local/ Syndicated programming matches What Fox sends (HD at 720p) via the Splicer - The HD from the Splicer is encoded at the Network level, and it won't be decoded/re-encoded at the affiliate --- Also, even if WXIX-DT doesn't have DD 5.1 capability, we'll still get DD 5.1 for Fox programming, as that comes "straight through" from Fox as well.

IMO, them doing 1080i was a GOOD decision(most HD displays out there support 1080i natively, not 720p) - When they do it "Right" and don't send it in "weirdscreen", I'd say it probably looks about as good as FOX WS can get on a HD display. My understanding is, WXIX-DT was Raycom's "beta test site" for HD, and I believe the first Raycomm digital station on the air .... There is an article "somewhere" on the net written by one of Raycomm's corporate Engineers about it ....

I had also read a few years ago that Raycom was a "big believer" in 1080i. I don't know about the specifics concerning WXIX's equipment, but I would think it *shouldn't* be a big deal for them to switch to 720p, as my understanding is, MOST(if not all) encoders and upconverters/etc. that support 1080i support 720p as well.

Originally posted by Jim Tressler
according to my hughes htl-hd it says wxix 19 (19-1) is 480i .. does it change for primetime?

I don't believe they change ATSC formats, I could be wrong though. Your equipment *may* not be reporting accurate info concerning which ATSC format they are actually sending. What you are seeing could just be incorrect info in some sort of a decsriptor/etc (via PID perhaps, as not sure if that would be sent via PSIP or what).

Last I heard from them(and anytime I've asked, since I don't have a way of telling with my equipment either - other than my eyes), they said they were sending(upconverting to) 1080i, and it doesn't look any different now than it allways has.

WRGT-DT Fox Dayton(Fox HD splicer upgrade already in place, they're just waiting for Fox to send some HD) Sends 720p currently, BTW -- For a short time, WRGT-DT was sending Fox WS at 480i 16x9(which is its "native" resolution), and I know the upcoversion my equipment can do to 1080i didn't do quite as good a job of it as WXIX-DT's equipment does. Anyhow, For a time there a couple years back, WXIX-DT was also sending a second SD 4x3 subchannel as 480i, perhaps it is possible what you are seeing where the 480i indication is concerned is something "left over" from that time, I don't know.

Sea Ray

07-20-04, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman

Last I heard from them(and anytime I've asked, since I don't have a way of telling with my equipment either - other than my eyes), they said they were sending(upconverting to) 1080i, and it doesn't look any different now than it allways has.

If they are sending out 1080i then isn't that considered HD? Yet I thought as TWC said they are not yet sending out HD so how can that be?

This was posted earlier in this thread from TWC:

"Time Warner has chosen not to carry WXIX-DT on its digital tier because all programming on WXIX-DT is distributed in the 480p (both 4:3 and 16:9) format. TWC does not consider 480p an HD format and therefore is not willing to give up channel space for a standard definition digital channel."

This seems to say that WXIX is sending out 480p and not 1080i. Am I missing something?

Nitewatchman

07-20-04, 10:41 PM

Originally posted by Sea Ray
If they are sending out 1080i then isn't that considered HD? Yet I thought as TWC said they are not yet sending out HD so how can that be?

This was posted earlier in this thread from TWC:

"Time Warner has chosen not to carry WXIX-DT on its digital tier because all programming on WXIX-DT is distributed in the 480p (both 4:3 and 16:9) format. TWC does not consider 480p an HD format and therefore is not willing to give up channel space for a standard definition digital channel."

This seems to say that WXIX is sending out 480p and not 1080i. Am I missing something?

Yep, you are missing something ;)

No, it is not considered HD unless the programming is actually produced(or transferred from film), and distributed in HD.

WXIX-DT is sending 1080i (unless something has changed recently, but it doesn't look like it from what I can tell) -- but NONE of the programming that airs on WXIX-DT is native HD (although at some point in their past I wouldn't be surprised if they aired some HD test loops/etc) -- it is all UPCONVERTED from its native resolution to 1080i by WXIX.

The Programming they air would have to be produced (or transferred from film) in HD, and distrubuted in HD (such as Fox HD will be) before they can actually send us HD. WKRC (local 12) news for example is sent as 1080i by WKRC-DT, but it isn't HD -- it is upconverted at the station from its native source(4x3 NTSC video - which is pretty close to 480i
SD). "CSI:Miami" on the other hand, is shot on Film and transferred to HD, and distributed in 1080i HD by CBS, and you "truly see" native HD when WKRC-DT airs it. If you watch PBS HD channel on WCVN-DT/KET4 or WCET-DT -- Some of that programming is HD, but much of it is Widescreen SD that is upconverted to 1080i at the network level and sent as 1080i by WCET-DT, or "sideconverted" to 720p in the case of WCVN-DT, as they choose to send PBS HD at 720p instead of 1080i.

As I mentioned before -- We often call "Fox widescreen" 480p, because that is what it is from the stations that are(most Fox affilates which were doing Fox Widescreen before the Fox HD upgrades at the affiliates began DID send 480p 16x9 ATSC format, although some sent 1080i, some sent 720p, some sent 480i 16x9) actually sending 480p ATSC format -- But, the programming is actually distrubuted by Fox as 480i anamorphic(another way of saying that which some think is more correct would be "16x9 NTSC video"), and the stations that are actually sending 480p deinterlace it(and I think 3:2 pulldown is added at the affiliate as well, or is "supposed to be" at least so your display doesn't necessarily have to support it) and send it as 480p ... In other words, "somewhat"(more or less) like a progressive scan DVD player.

Fox Widescreen(Which is also referred to as ED or "enhanced definition" but could actually also be called SD widescreen IMO) is, PQ wise, pretty much on par with "anamoprphic" Widescreen DVD, No matter WHICH ATSC format the affiliate is sending (480i 16x9, 480p 16x9, 720p, 1080i). Any differences in quality you would see between stations sending any of those formats would mostly have to do with either the upconversion equipment at the station(depending upon what format they are sending -- If they are sending 480i/p then they aren't upconverting the programming from its native resolution of course), or the viewer's equipment and how well it upconverts to the native scan rate your display is using.(1080i, 720p).

In other words, If you have a DVD player that has a scaler that outputs at 1080i, basically speaking you would be doing the same thing with DVD (which is "natively" 480i 4x3 NTSC video, or 16x9 NTSC video(latter also is more commonly called a "anamoprhic" DVD)as WXIX-DT is doing with Fox Widescreen, any other Fox programming presently, or WXIX local syndicated programming ....

What we are talking about here when we say WXIX is sending 1080i, is the acutal ATSC format they are sending us, not the "native" resolution of the programming or what Fox is sending THEM with Fox widescreen, whereas, The latter is what TW and WXIX's CE is reffering to. (I think they are calling it 480p for "short" rather than going into deinterlacing and upconverting and the like) ....

Hope that makes some sense ....

------------------------------

Update : Oh, btw, I meant to add the following link in my last post to this thread which has loads of great info on FOX HD, the upgrades to Fox's distribution system for HD, and info on the HD splicer upgrades for the affiliates :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3304603#post3304603

DrDon

07-20-04, 11:11 PM

SR...

It's kind of like FM Stereo. You're listening on FM and the stereo light is lit. But if I'm playing an old 78RPM record on the air, then what you're hearing is most definitely not stereo and not high fidelity <G>.

BTW, WXIX-DT is still churning 1080i. Might be 720p, but I'd probably notice that. It takes the Sammy longer to acquire a new station if that station is in a different format from the one it's currently on. For example, if I step from WLWT-DT to WKRC-DT the channel change is instantaneous, just as it is from WCPO-DT to WDTN-DT. But from WCPO-DT to WLWT-DT, WKRC-DT or even WSTR-DT, the Sammy has to think about it for a few seconds.

Paul210

07-20-04, 11:17 PM

Great analogy...never thought of it that way.

jim tressler

07-21-04, 07:25 AM

I just recieved my hd set yesterday (toshiba 46h84) and watched navy csi or whatever its called... man all I can say is holy sh*t!!!! absolutly fricken amazing!! Fox 19 looked horrible.. lol.. for some reason my hughes htl-hd said 1080i but the normal strech modes were not availabe.. all I had were letterbox, cropped and squeezed modes.. most of the other high def stuff I get expand, standard and shrink modes.. interesting

jim

Grazant

07-21-04, 08:56 AM

I sure hope that WXIX gets HD and TWC gets WXIX-DT before football season. But the real reason I am writing is because I was wondering if anyone here knew the status of the HD DVR (SA 8000HD) from TWC here in Cincy. I wrote to TWC and they said "they have no expected date for the release of the HD DVR." Seeing as the people on this forum seem to have the right connections, I was hoping someone got some info from someone a little higher up in the food chain. I sure hope we get it before September. I read on avsforum that Dayton should have it by the beginning of August and Columbus which is also on the Pioneer Passport software already has it up and running. Let’s hope TWCincy gets on the ball.

Nitewatchman

07-21-04, 12:57 PM

WCPO-DT PSIP remap missing?

PSIP remap for WCPO-DT has been missing here for the last 5-6 days or so --- anybody getting the PSIP remap to 9.x for them?

Also noticed they missed several nights of ABC HD last week ...

-----------------------------------------------------

WCET-DT 48.1 Missing again :

Noticed that past few nights, 48.1 has been MIA again on both receivers here when they are supposed to be in HD mode ...

I wish they could find a way to permanently address this problem we keep seeing from them occasionally. Maybe they could find a way to leave PSIP for all their services/subchannels up all the time(even if "blank"(as is the case with WPTD-DT/WPTO-DT) or just as "placeholders"), if it is going to keep "not working" occasionally for them to add and remove subchannels completely on a daily/nighly basis. Or, even better if they could do it like KET does with the switching of ATSC formats between CPB/Annenburg at 480i and 720p for PBS HD on KET4 ...

Also, I would note that even with the "guides off"(channel remapping and other PSIP stuff turned off) on DTC-100, 34.1 PBS HD (it shows up as 34.1 w/o remapping) still doesn't show up when it's "MIA" .....

Also, I'm wondering if this is an issue(I'm thinking no) for TW CET-HD viewers and, I assume they get PBS HD channel from CET-HD(which OTA we see as 48.1 via PSIP remap) when its MIA via OTA(such as past few nights ?

DrDon

07-21-04, 01:38 PM

WCPO-DT's been 10-1 on both receivers for at least a week. I haven't talked to anyone over there, so I don't know specifics. PSIP data seems to be MIA, as there's no time info from them, either.

jim tressler

07-21-04, 01:49 PM

I have 9-1, 10-1, and 10-2 The data is there for 9-1, but 10-1 and 10-2 are blank - 10-1 is 9-1 and 10-2 is the radar

Nitewatchman

07-21-04, 10:46 PM

Jim,

Thanks. your receiver is likely using the D* EPG for the remapping of 10-1 to 9-1 instead of the PSIP channel remapping that WCPO-DT is not sending if that makes sense.

Just another way different receivers behave differently that can make things confusing to talk about here at times .... For instance, Even some D*+OTA STB's will behave differently than you are seeing when channel remapping via PSIP isn't sent : certian D*/OTA HD receivers might show 9-1+9-2 as blank(with the D* EPG guide info present) and 10-1+2 with the actual programming ... Which is one reason why I often like to refer to the stations by their RF channel(for the digital station) or callsign, especially when stations aren't sending PSIP at all (WKEF-DT, WHIO-DT, and WRGT-DT Dayton has never sent channel remapping info via PSIP, although there are some folks who get the "Remapped" channels via a STB like your's that is using D*'s info for its "functional channel remapping ) .....

----------------------

Doc,

Thanks for the report, with 2 different models of receivers here I figured it wasn't a "receiver specific" issue, but you never know so thought I should ask, especially since this isn't all that common for them(not that its never happened before though) ...

----------------------------------------------------

All,

OTA Still no PBS HD channel on 34.1/48.1 from WCET-DT tonight (presently at least).. Fine fromn KET4/ WCVN-DT (54.4 remap) and WPTD-DT (16.6 remap) though ....

Speaking of HD from WPTD-DT Dayton(I should probably post this in Dayton thread but I'm being lazy tonight), it does look a little better compression artifact wise than it did for a while there (running 2SD services+ 1080i HD now) ... Could be better of course I'd think at 720P+ ONE SD service(simulcast of analog) .....

jim tressler

07-22-04, 10:24 PM

Is anyone else having trouble with WCPO-DT? Their signal is very weak tonight - all others 5,12,19,and even 64 are fine.

jim

DrDon

07-22-04, 10:31 PM

Jim..

No issues here. PSIP is still off. I've left word with one of my contacts there, but haven't heard anything. But power levels would seem to be normal, esepcially since I don't have the VHF antenna hooked up. I'm getting them off of the UHF Yagi. You could be having a reflection issue with the front coming through, although I'm not seeing any.

Doc

Nitewatchman

07-22-04, 10:39 PM

No problems here Jim, seem to be getting a strong solid signal From WCPO-DT as normal at 10:30EDT. The normal Steady 95% on the Zenith's signal quality meter as well.

One guess would be that its a possibility you may be experiencing co-channel interference issues with WBNS 10, Columbus, especially given your location and the "bi-directional" design of your antenna.

Or, (perhaps more likely especially given the storm that has just moved through your area according to the radar) if is not a "sustained" issue -- such as, not "sustained" lower readings on your receiver's signal quality meter, and instead is more of a occasional lower reading and occasional dropouts, you might be getting "impulse noise" interference(effects VHF more than UHF(although I've certianly seen especially weak signals on UHF effected), Lo-VHF(Ch 2-6) more than Hi-VHF(ch 7-13)) from nearby lightning strikes from that storm that just moved through your area --

If you can "see" the lightning flashes+they correspond to the drop outs or momentary lower readings off your receiver's meter, then you've found the problem --- an antenna with more directivity/Gain can help a bit. The stronger the signal you get from WCPO-DT, the easier it will be to overcome the noise spikes from lightening(which the DTV receiver sees as just "noise" - just more noise than usual) -- remember just because your receiver's "meter" shows a high reading doesn't necessarily mean you are actually getting a strong signal. But, if the strike is close enough or in the signal path I'd guess you're likely to still get a dropout or two from a nearby strike every once in a while, no matter what you do. I've seen about 2 dropouts here in the last few years on WCPO-DT due to VERY nearby lightning strikes.

Nitewatchman

07-22-04, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by DrDon
No issues here. PSIP is still off. I've left word with one of my contacts there, but haven't heard anything.

I was going to drop them a note too, but keep getting busy and forgetting about it. I was also going to ask them if they were planning on picking up this SD Multicast News channel ABC is allowing digital affiliates to broadcast starting(I think) on Mon 7/26, I think its mainly for the Dem/Rep conventions. Wouldn't seem like it would work too well though given their SD Weather channel(which I do find quite useful BTW) ...

-----------------------------------

All,

Notice PBS HD+48.1 is back tonight on WCET-DT ...

jim tressler

07-22-04, 10:58 PM

so you all think its basically the sensar antenna thats causing my issue.. its 11pm and wcpo-dt still sucks.. all others are good

thanks

jim

Nitewatchman

07-22-04, 11:16 PM

Originally posted by jim tressler
so you all think its basically the sensar antenna thats causing my issue..

Not necessarily --- Since (the way I understand it anyway) Its worked fine for you for WCPO-DT except for tonight, It might be best to try to see if you can find the actual issue that is changing things before deciding what to do about it, if anything. If anything, I'd expect a bit "better" antenna to improve your reception on UHF moreso than VHF. If you were in say, Wilmington, OH instead of Mainville area, I'd probably defintely be recommending a VHF antenna with better directivity for WCPO-DT/WBNS 10 "situation", but generally speaking(not including various interference issues) it is usually easier to get good reception on VHF in relatively strong signal areas(such as you are in) with the simplest of antennas(say even a "coathanger") than is the case on UHF. .... Although, a "better" antenna with more gain/directivity certianly wouldn't hurt anything, either.

One way you might be able to get a good clue concerning what is going on would be to look at the analog stations.

For instance, check out WCPO analog 9, and or WKRC 12 analog. Any extra "interference"? or "static" which you weren't seeing when WCPO-DT was working OK for you ? Remember, in addition to lightning, there are numerous other man-made sources of impulse noise interference(creates "static(not snow) on the screen with a analog station). Numerous household appliances, "faulty" vehicle(or lawn mower/etc) igintion systems/etc/etc.

Another fairly common source of interference on Hi-VHF channels can come from harmonics from VERY nearby, high power FM transmitters(I'd think that's unlikely in your circumstance although I haven't researched the possibility for you, and for the "most part" FM stations do about everything they can to keep things to specs where spurious transmissions are involved -- although, only so much they can do). Or, more commonly from a tuner/preamp that is being overloaded with strong FM signals -- Most preamps have a FM trap included for this very reason, it is often a switchable trap(in/out switch, the "IN" turns on the FM trap).

Interference from FM signals are visable as a herringbone(diagonal lines) pattern on analog stations --- Interference from FM signal would seem to be unlikely in your situation where WCPO-DT is concerned, since it was, I take it working fine before, and FM broadcast stations at least usually pretty much operate 24/7. Keep in mind, you wouldn't however, necessarily be able to detirmine if FM interference via preamp/tuner overload is causing problems for you on WCPO-DT 10, since this sort of thing is usually quite frequency specific and all a digital station produces on a analog TV screen is pretty much just "random snow".

Also, to check for the possibiity of Co-channel interference issues -- use a analog NON-screen muting TV hooked up to the antenna (a TV that doesn't put up a blue screen when you tune to a "empty" channel or channel with a weak signal, or mute the audio -- instead you want to see what should be "clean looking" snow on an empty channel) --- Tune this to 10, and, if you see(or hear) anything that looks much different than just "pretty much" ordinary clean, snow, then I'd think chances are good you're presently having a co-channel interference issue -- If it's actually strong enough to be causing dropouts to WCPO-DT in your location, I'd say there's a good chance you should even be able to SEE(or hear a bit) WBNS 10 Columbus to some extent.

I would note that, I am NOT seeing much from Columbus here tonight(except WCMH 4 and weak/unstable signal from what is likely WSYX-DT 13 -- WBNS 10/WTTE 28/WOSU 34 is probably in there to some extent, but is being covered up too much by WCPO-DT 10, WPTO-DT 28/WCET-DT 34, even w/ant aimed towards Columbs) --- BUT things(band conditions) could be different at your location.

I noted that earlier, you seemed to indicate your analog reception wasn't so great, but your digital reception was very good ... While it is true that, generally speaking in many if not most cases -- getting good digital reception is easier than getting good analog reception -- If you are seeing a lot of snow/ghosts/interference/noise from the local analog stations, then those same issues that cause those problems will likely effect the signals from the digital stations to some extent as well, but you just don't know about it for the most part with DTV until(IF), for some reason the signal goes off the "cliff", when that happens, the effect(dropout) is of course immediately recognizable ...

I guess what I'm trying to say with the above paragraph is --- Improve your reception of analog stations(especially ones that are transmitting off the same towers and/or stations transmitting on nearly the same channels as the digital stations you want to receive well), and there is a very good chance it will beneifit you(in at least some way) where reception of digital stations are concerned as well. In cincinnati, for instance, if you can get good "clean" signals from analogs 25, 38 and 61 for instance, that would probably be a good indication that your reception setup(for UHF anyway) is working quite well. IF you're getting good, clean "pristine" reception of analogs 9+12 in Cincy with no interference or ghosting issues (aside from the potential WBNS 10/WCPO-DT 10 CCI issue), then you should get good reception of WCPO-DT as well.

The above is all just pretty "common" basic stuff where reception of RF(Wireless) signals on VHF/UHF are concerned. There are of course other possibilites(interference issues), but you can boil it all down to 3 general issues ... #1). Having enough signal over noise, #2). Interference issues, #3). Multipath issues. I really wouldn't suspect #3 as being the issue here, since it was working fine at other times and, if you were having dynamic multipath issues(from say Planes or wind blowing tree limbs around), I would think you'd see some sign of it elsewhere instead of just on VHF 10, but then again who knows .... If however, perchance dynamic multipath is an issue, I'd expect it likely that you would see lots of "fluttery looking" ghosts on Analog WCPO 9 when you are having the problems on WCPO-DT as well.

Also -- I'd think if the antenna "rotated" itself a bit with the wind, you would probably see issues on other stations as well, but then again it might be something to at least check and make sure it didn't move any in the wind .... Inproper antenna aiming would likely reduce amount of signal you're getting from the station(s), as well as, likely increase multipath.

Hopefully, someday we will get better RF Signal diagnostic tools with our DTV receivers ... I don't know how I'd judge how well my antenna setup+reception was working, presently without the analog signals to look at, as you can see any problems with multipath(ghosts), interference(a variety of causes+effects) or weak signals(snow) DIRECTLY on the screen .... Granted, a spectrum analyzer would be nice but ;) .....

(post above updated @ 1am w/additional thoughts/clarifications - sorry, it has been a long day)

DrDon

07-23-04, 07:45 AM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
I was also going to ask them if they were planning on picking up this SD Multicast News channel ABC is allowing digital affiliates to broadcast starting(I think) on Mon 7/26, I think its mainly for the Dem/Rep conventions. Wouldn't seem like it would work too well though given their SD Weather channel(which I do find quite useful BTW) They'd probably have to add a second sub as that weather channel seems to be part of their carriage agreement with at least ONE cable company. Insight had their OWN local weather channel on 71 (the computerized one programmed by The Weather Channel) which they dropped in favor of the WCPO-DT subchannel about the same time as they started carrying WCPO-DT's main (HD) channel. I don't know if that agreement allows for WCPO to change the programming on that channel or not.

Doc

jim tressler

07-23-04, 09:52 AM

wow.. thanks for the explanation.. it was still crappy this am - so I may check the alignment

thanks again!

jim

HDTVChallenged

07-23-04, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by jim tressler
wow.. thanks for the explanation.. it was still crappy this am - so I may check the alignment

thanks again!

jim

FYI, Cincy and Dayton stations were booming in here (30mi s of Lexington) last night. I lost WKYT-DT (RF13), which is normally my strongest digital station, for a while. I suspect your problems were being caused by abnormal propagation and "out-of-market" interference.

WebHopperWeasel

07-24-04, 12:09 PM

I am currently enjoying NASCAR on TNT-HD. Awesome PQ. I am impressed with TNT for the 1st time. I am not sure if the rest of the NASCAR season will be in HD or not. Unless this is the weird screen stretch they normally do, but it doesn't appear to be any unusual aspect stretching.

DrDon

07-24-04, 12:15 PM

I think it's the same 480p sourcing FOX had. NBC ran widescreen last race, too. It would appear the higher-bndwidth, non-anamorphic distribution systems of NBC and TNT result in better PQ than Fox's presentation.

Sucks to hear that golf won't be in HD on CBS for a few weeks. But WKRC-DTs picture continues to be stunning. Good job.

Nitewatchman

07-24-04, 03:05 PM

This post : ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=409554&perpage=20&pagenumber=1 ) Now(currently) seems to indicate that WXIX-DT has already had the Fox HD upgrade and is currently sending 720p(upconverted of course)...

If correct and not a "typo" or something, this would be great news ....

If incorrect however, could someone post on that thread(and/or here) their latest info from WXIX that would indicate what we heard from them a few days ago has changed -- Or/also verify that the HD splicer HAS already been installed? And/or, if you have a transport stream analyzer or another way to accurately tell they are now sending 720p/etc, could you post that information so the info can be updated on the Fox HD ready stations list thread ?

Thanks,

jim tressler

07-24-04, 07:57 PM

on my hughes box (set to native) it says wxix-dt is still 480p

DrDon

07-24-04, 08:40 PM

Originally posted by jim tressler
on my hughes box (set to native) it says wxix-dt is still 480p Not to argue, but I can resize 480i and 480p signals. Can't do a thing to WXIX-DT. So, they're either 720p or 1080i. Given the tuning delay between them and WCPO-DT, I'd say they're still 1080i. But I don't have a readout.

Doc

chrisdow

07-25-04, 10:15 PM

I too have trouble, not getting any signal, w/9-1 since last weekend. No British Open NO LESS! I get 9 (analog) & 9-2 & every other digital OTA channel around - I used to get 9-1 fine (watched final episode of Alias in HD) ...did something in the 9-1 broadcast change in the last 10 days or so?

DrDon

07-25-04, 11:04 PM

Yep. They disabled channel remapping in their PSIP. Depending on the receiver you use, you'll either have to tune 10-1 or have your receiver re-scan local digital channels.

chrisdow

07-26-04, 12:45 AM

REMAPPING? Whose the Einstien that came up with that one the day before the Open? !@#$! My trusty HDtivo does a lot but it doesn't account for frickin' remapping, rescanning or other such broadcast-babysitting! Can U tell I'm just a little mift about returning from my vacation & no British Open? Thanks for the info. Is there any way to know how often I should rescan? ...or do I just wait til I miss something?...

jim tressler

07-26-04, 08:07 AM

no problem doc ... wxix-dt is very wierd - the hughes box will let me apply "cropped,letterbox,cinezoom" and some other crap and I can resize it in the tv as well.. but the display on the hughes shows 480p when I have it set to native - either way - the wxix-dt signal looks like crap - it almost looks choppy with alot of jaggies - all of the other local digitals look great - even the stuff thats in sd converted to hd..

Also.. an update on WCPO-DT - i did not touch a thing - but the signal is back and its better than before - according to the highes "meter" .. very strange!

thanks

jim

Originally posted by DrDon
Not to argue, but I can resize 480i and 480p signals. Can't do a thing to WXIX-DT. So, they're either 720p or 1080i. Given the tuning delay between them and WCPO-DT, I'd say they're still 1080i. But I don't have a readout.

Doc

Nitewatchman

07-26-04, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by chrisdow
Is there any way to know how often I should rescan? ...or do I just wait til I miss something?...

If you can no longer see the station(unless its off air) perhaps? If nothing else, Someone will usually say something here if/when there is a change in the PSIP channel remapping(or anything else for that matter) from a given station.

Also, Most receivers(maybe not yours) will let you tune to the actual RF channel(10 in this case) manually on your remote to get to the station, no matter whether or not they are sending PSIP, that's probably quicker and more convienient than rescanning if it works on your equipment. For example, you *may*(should really) be able to punch in 31-1 on your remote, and WKRC-DT (remaps to 12-1) will show up, or 10-1 and WCPO-DT will show up(presently, 9-1 won't work for them).

IF PSIP info(such as channel remapping) from a station changes(assuming the station is sending the info properly) what SHOULD happen should be that it should automatically "update" the 1st time you tune to that station after they make the change. That's what happens on both my receivers here(RCA DTC-100, Zenith HDV420). If however, the station is sending some "botched up" psip info, there could be problems, and I would imagine if you are using a receiver that integrates D*/E* EPG with PSIP/etc., that could make for add'l "screw ups" as well.

While the real solution to these problems is probably going to end up being that stations should ensure they are sending Channel remapping and other info via PSIP (such as STT clock) properly all the time ... Nevertheless, IMO, The "Einstein's" who are the hardware manufactuers really should make sure their equipment works properly whether or not a station sends PSIP channel remapping, or if something changes with the station's PSIP. PSIP/Channel remapping is NOT currently required(at all) to be sent by the stations, and I know I certianly would not want a recording device to rely on the STT Clock info that is being sent via PSIP from some of the local stations ....

Nitewatchman

07-26-04, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by jim tressler
no problem doc ... wxix-dt is very wierd - the hughes box will let me apply "cropped,letterbox,cinezoom" and some other crap and I can resize it in the tv as well.. but the display on the hughes shows 480p when I have it set to native - either way - the wxix-dt signal looks like crap - it almost looks choppy with alot of jaggies - all of the other local digitals look great - even the stuff thats in sd converted to hd..

Maybe try setting it to whatever setting will output 1080i or 720p from the box for WXIX-DT instead of setting it to "native" whatever than means with the HTL-HD.

We've discussed the "jaggies" from WXIX-DT several times here in the past. I don't see it during Fox programming here(unless they're just feeding the Digital the same "feed" the analog gets, which doesn't happen very often these days) -- Just the jaggies on Local/syndicated, AND it is MUCH worse if I set my STB to output at 480i/p rather than 1080i/720p, hardly noticable for the most part if I set the STB to outut at 1080i/720p.

Originally posted by jim tressler
Also.. an update on WCPO-DT - i did not touch a thing - but the signal is back and its better than before - according to the highes "meter" .. very strange!

I'd think it is likely a co-channel interference issue with WBNS 10 Columbus which you were experiencing. Keep in mind :

#1). you are pretty much in a "beeline" between those 2 stations, I think about 20 miles or so from WCP0-DT 10, and about 65-70 miles or so from WBNS 10(analog) Columbus.

#2). Since your antenna is a "bi-directional" design, it is in effect, more or less aimed at BOTH those stations towers at the same time.

#3). Since you within WCPO-DT 10 Service area, and *almost* within WBNS 10 service area as well, It likely won't take much in the way of "enhanced signal propagation"(the "air" refracts signals a bit beyond curvature of the Earth at all times, but sometimes it can do a little more "refracting" than other times) for this to be an issue for you -- In this case, I'd guess it could last for days on end, probably most pronounced during Evening/Night/Morning hours.

While you may have only been seeing co-channel problems on 10 this time around, I expect, given the antenna you are using, at some point(can't guess at how often) the time will also come when you will also experience some co-channel issues with WTTE 28 Columbus/WPTO-DT 28 Cincinnati, WOSU 34 Columbus/WCET-DT 34 Cincinnati.

As I mentioned before, IF co-channel interference is the problem here(I mentioned in an earlier post how you MIGHT be able to tell -- WHEN the problem is occuring "at its worst" at least), an antenna with better directivity should help you out --- In this specific case, you want to reject signal off the BACK side of the antenna, so you want a antenna with at least some sort of F/B(front back) ratio, of which the Sensar has none. I'm guessing (just guessing) even moving to an antenna that really isn't among the "best" directivity/F/B rejection wise -- especially on VHF == Such as say, A RS VU-90 -- would STILL do wonders for you .....

They are putting co-channel stations WAY too close together in some circumstances IMO -- For the most part, it seems to me it has worked out amazingly well so far, but there are just some locations(such as your's, being right between 2 nearby co-channel stations - a location in say Wilmington, Ohio would even be WORSE ) that will "suffer" But, it's just something we are going to have to live with to an "increased degree" until the analogs are shut off -- They HAVE to put stations on the same channels so close together in many areas, as there is just not enough room(channels) to fit in all the thousands and thousands of analog AND digital stations presently.

Let's just hope stations in this area make wise choices when channel election deadline comes around, if they do, for the most part Co-channel interference should be much less of an issue, and for the most part, not much of a problem after analog shut off time ......

Nitewatchman

07-26-04, 12:44 PM

Oh, -- Noticed WXIX-DT 29(19.1 remap) is off air today(when I've checked) at 12-12:45pm -- The problem is *not* in your set ;)

DrDon

07-26-04, 12:51 PM

They were on earlier this morning. So either something's broke or they're - dare I say it - getting some work done. The exciter is off, too. I only know that because the last time they ran exciter-only, I could still pick them up. 14's up, so it's not a combiner or tower problem (or power failure).

My bet: someone accidentally kicked out the plug. ;)

edit: At 12:55, they were back up for a bit, but the encoder didn't look happy at all.

edit: Called the front office (421-1919) and whomever answered had no idea. Feel free to dial 'em up just so they won't think I'm the only one who noticed. Seems to be exciter only at 1:15

JunkyardDogg

07-26-04, 01:02 PM

hey guys
I found a mits dvhs player at bestbuy cheap, i mean under $50 cheap! I wanted to know if any of you know of some store that sells dvhs tapes here in the cincinnati area. I have been looking at them online, but I would rather buy them locally if possible.

Junk

chrisdow

07-26-04, 04:20 PM

So, Can I assume your DTC-100 did an "auto-switch-over" to 10-1 from 9-1 recently? I used to own one but that is 5+ year old technology & I (perhaps mistakenly) assumed that my new Hughes D* HDTivo could & would be capable of doing it too. I have no idea what a PSIP or STT is - is that required reading? :-)
There's one thing that's different in my set-up that you've overlooked. That is, I DON'T sit there & punch in the channels manually, live to discover immediately that it's not there - IT's SUPPOSED to be there isn't it. I trying to use my 250GB of recording power to be somewhat automatic - when I"M NOT THERE. -AND that's the point - can't this stuff just work yet? One of the big reasons I bought this box was to "stockpile the little HD content out there now...
As far as I know on this box, one "chooses" channels from a selected list after the original "scan" for local/off-air channels - so there likely isn't a "re-tuning" when the whole channel moves...not sure you can put this one the mfr...did they change to 10-1 to go DD 5.1? -or why the channel change?Originally posted by Nitewatchman
If you can no longer see the station(unless its off air) perhaps? If nothing else, Someone will usually say something here if/when there is a change in the PSIP channel remapping(or anything else for that matter) from a given station.

Also, Most receivers(maybe not yours) will let you tune to the actual RF channel(10 in this case) manually on your remote to get to the station, no matter whether or not they are sending PSIP, that's probably quicker and more convienient than rescanning if it works on your equipment. For example, you *may*(should really) be able to punch in 31-1 on your remote, and WKRC-DT (remaps to 12-1) will show up, or 10-1 and WCPO-DT will show up(presently, 9-1 won't work for them).

IF PSIP info(such as channel remapping) from a station changes(assuming the station is sending the info properly) what SHOULD happen should be that it should automatically "update" the 1st time you tune to that station after they make the change. That's what happens on both my receivers here(RCA DTC-100, Zenith HDV420). If however, the station is sending some "botched up" psip info, there could be problems, and I would imagine if you are using a receiver that integrates D*/E* EPG with PSIP/etc., that could make for add'l "screw ups" as well.

While the real solution to these problems is probably going to end up being that stations should ensure they are sending Channel remapping and other info via PSIP (such as STT clock) properly all the time ... Nevertheless, IMO, The "Einstein's" who are the hardware manufactuers really should make sure their equipment works properly whether or not a station sends PSIP channel remapping, or if something changes with the station's PSIP. PSIP/Channel remapping is NOT currently required(at all) to be sent by the stations, and I know I certianly would not want a recording device to rely on the STT Clock info that is being sent via PSIP from some of the local stations ....

hugenbdd

07-26-04, 05:23 PM

JunkyardDog.
BestBuy usually has them in stock. But they are expensive. $25 for 2!. Your best bet is to use SVHS tapes. I use the fuji Pro and they seem to work well.

Check out the recorders forum as there are a lot of threads on this info. However, they may be a few months old.

Dave

jim tressler

07-26-04, 07:32 PM

I just have to vent - the reds cards game is blacked out on espn hd - what a croc of sh*t - I could understand if fox sports was hd.. but this is bs!!

jim

jim tressler

07-26-04, 07:40 PM

also.. wxix-dt is off air at 7:40pm (at least for me) :)

DrDon

07-26-04, 08:22 PM

Jim..

Been off just about all day. Looks like they tried to put it back on around 1, but something just wasn't happy. I've a feeling it'll be down a while..

Nitewatchman

07-26-04, 11:02 PM

Originally posted by chrisdow
So, Can I assume your DTC-100 did an "auto-switch-over" to 10-1 from 9-1 recently?

I couldn't say -- Probably did from previous experience with this sort of thing, but, on DTC-100 I usually have/prefer Channel remapping via PSIP turned off (turning off the "off air guides" function turns channel remapping+other user visable PSIP functions off too) - which is the case presently and when WCPO-DT/Changed so I couldn't say for sure as I see it as 10-1 with the channel remapping turned off, anyway.

The Zenith HDV420 I use, however, did it "automatically", first time I channel surfed to 9-1 after the change, it automatically showed up as 10-1 instead, as of course, it has to really "look" to channel 10 anyway since that's where the station is actually broadcasting. Now, if I tune to 9-1 NOW it will be nothing there as its looking at channel 9 (where analog WCPO is), and the HDV420 is a ATSC(OTA digital only) receiver.

Originally posted by chrisdow
I have no idea what a PSIP or STT is - is that required reading? :-)

I believe (don't quote me on this though as I don't feel like looking it up) STT stands for something like "system time table". In other words, the station can send Time/date info via PSIP, but, when I've looked at it, this info seems to often be inaccurate from the locals (except for from the local PBS stations).

As for your question, "required reading?" probably, hard to say.

The info below from this page ( http://www.nab.org/scitech/psip/default.asp ) explains a bit what PSIP is without going into much detail -- The info at the very bottom about it being "mandatory" if true, is certianly news to me :

Program and System Information Protocol (PSIP) is data that is transmitted along with a station's DTV signal that tells DTV receivers important information about the station and what is being broadcast. The most important function of PSIP is to provide a method for DTV receivers to identify a DTV station and to determine how a receiver can tune to it. PSIP identifies both the DTV channel and the associated NTSC (analog) channel. It helps maintain the current channel branding because DTV receivers will electronically associate the two channels making it easy for viewers to tune to the DTV station even if they do not know the channel number.

In addition to identifying the channel number, PSIP tells the receiver whether multiple program channels are being broadcast and, if so, how to find them. It identifies whether the programs are closed captioned, conveys V-chip information, if data is associated with the program, and much more. If broadcasters do not include properly encoded PSIP data in their DTV signals, receivers may not correctly identify and tune to the station. Therefore, it is vital that all broadcasters understand PSIP and include the data in their DTV stations signals. PSIP is a mandatory Advanced Television Systems Committee (ATSC) Standard.

Originally posted by chrisdow
There's one thing that's different in my set-up that you've overlooked. That is, I DON'T sit there & punch in the channels manually

No, Chris, I didn't overlook anything. I don't really care HOW you "tune in channels", or set your recorder/etc. I'm just trying to relate to you possible ways you can get around this problem when it occurs.

Originally posted by chrisdow
I trying to use my 250GB of recording power to be somewhat automatic - when I"M NOT THERE. -AND that's the point - can't this stuff just work yet?

Can it work, presently? Yes, probably for the most part, although keep in mind we are still in the early stages of this thing, and I'm sure the stations are dealing with some "clunky(but very expensive)" equipment still, as are users as well in some cases.

WILL it work "yet" ... I'd guess probably not 100% of the time to your expectations. Heck, *sometimes* stations even go off the air for reasons beyond their control.(Transmitter Tube "Blows up", Tower collapses(lets hope we don't have one of the latter around here)/etc/etc.

Also -- more "frequently" -- "Glitches"/etc. and changes occur. The DTV station is not as of yet as "important" to the stations, as the analog is still the cash cow -- and, especially as (H)DTV viewers aren't even counted in the ratings yet ... Also, you have to realize you have the *same* amount of people it took running ONE station having to now handle *TWO* stations -- oftentimes, probably with not enough resources available for them to have a "well oiled machine" going for BOTH the analog AND the digital station.

Originally posted by chrisdow
As far as I know on this box, one "chooses" channels from a selected list after the original "scan" for local/off-air channels - so there likely isn't a "re-tuning" when the whole channel moves...

The "whole channel" doesn't "really" move. WCPO-DT actually transmits it's signal on channel 10 -- ALL the time. It doesn't change. WKRC-DT (CBS Cincy) transmits on channel 31 -- All the time -- it REMAPS via PSIP to 12-1. But, in WCPO-DT's case they "usually" send the PSIP info to make it "show up"(remap) as channel 9-1+9-2 on your receiver so it appears with the same "main" channel number as their analog station. Currently, and for the last 10 days or so, they haven't been sending that "extra" info.

Originally posted by chrisdow

not sure you can put this one the mfr...

As I said, stations need to send proper PSIP info for some equipment to "work" properly(I'm just saying it *should* work whether or not a station is sending channel remapping info via PSIP, or if the PSIP info they send changes) - and also, for *some* D*/E*+OTA equipment should properly integrate their EPG info with what the stations are sending, even if the latter changes for some reason ... But, of course, also -- sometimes PSIP generators in use at the stations "hiccup" among other things and it might take a while for anyone at the station to notice it ....,

But, otherwise ----- Sure I can put it on the mfr(or more specifically whoever "designed" the software/firmware that runs the thing) -- Although, of course, again, if you're also getting the "channel list" from D*/E* EPG, the "issue" here may involve an integration problem(one good thing about the DTC-100 in this regard is that it *does not* integrate tuning or EPG between the sat receiver+OTA receiver) between the EPG info and the PSIP info the station sends(or doesn't) .... Nevertheless, The first time you WENT to 9-1 after they started showing up on 10-1 instead -- Your receiver(even if you had a recording set) *should* have AUTOMATICALLY seen that the station wasn't sending remapping info(to 9-1), and switched you to 10 instead, and this change SHOULD have shown up on your "channel list"/etc. as well.

Originally posted by chrisdow

did they change to 10-1 to go DD 5.1? -or why the channel change?

I think you'll have to ask WCPO about that, unless someone posts the info from them here. THAT's(the station) is usually the best place to go if you have an issue with them, or if you have comments/complaints/etc. about their operation.

I would guess it is even somewhat of a possibility that they may not even KNOW their PSIP is "broke" yet (PSIP generator may need a reboot or something, or perhaps it was a "consicous" and deliberate change and they now WANT their digital station to show up on 10 instead of 9 -- who knows, we will have to hear from them ).... But, For example Even if they are using a consumer receiver to monitor their Off air signal, if they don't "change the channel" on it, it might STILL say they are tuned to 9-1 and everything is working "fine" ...

noysboy

07-27-04, 10:17 AM

Jeff,

Thanks so much for your explanation as I'm having the same problem with my HD Tivo. It seems that no matter what I do I can't force the unit into realizing that 9-1 is now only coming in through 10-1. I can tune 10-1, but the EPG and Tivo functions dont recognize any relation, so for 10-1 it has no info.

At this point, would it help for us to contact someone at WCPO? or is it like most things where they will blow it off as a single, ignorant customer that doesnt know anything?

pat

chrisdow

07-27-04, 10:44 AM

Jeff,
Thanks for the info...I too am getting no programming info at 10-1, but rather still on 9-1 but since Tivo records to & from programming info (which is on a blank channel now), we're hosed for now...
noysboy,
I'll contact the station too if it'll help...I was hoping since I just "added" the channel the program info would take a bit of time before it displayed but I guess that's not happening....have you checked the tivo forum yet for this problem? ...will send you a PM for a few HDTivo questions...

DrDon

07-27-04, 11:00 AM

WXIX-DT is back up at 11AM

Dimitriz

07-27-04, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by DrDon
WXIX-DT is back up at 11AM

Any changes to it? Is it still in fake 480p? :)

Thanks

jim tressler

07-27-04, 11:14 AM

Hey doc.. are you still on b105? i looked at their site and you are not listed..

jim

DrDon

07-27-04, 11:16 AM

Jim..

Nope. We "parted ways" in February. They wanted to go for an older audience, I was informed. Never figured - at my age - I'd be "too young" for the format <g>.

Dimitriz: no changes.

jim tressler

07-27-04, 11:17 AM

I was just listening to some of your bits on your webpage.. funny stuff

DrDon

07-27-04, 11:18 AM

Thank you very much! The site is kind of my resume, now <g>.

jim tressler

07-27-04, 11:20 AM

well good luck to you!

chrisdow

07-27-04, 12:53 PM

...just saw 9-1 is now back on. Guess they just wanted to mess w/their equipment just long enuf to miss the Open! ERRRHHH!

bearcatscott

07-27-04, 01:16 PM

Junkyarddogg,

Which Best Buy did you get this D-VHS player and did they have any left at that price? They have A JVC model on their website for $799. $50 seems unbelievable!

Scott

Nitewatchman

07-27-04, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by noysboy
At this point, would it help for us to contact someone at WCPO?

It's usually ALLWAYS a good idea to contact them when/if there are problems. It can be tough to get through sometimes and it may take them some time for them to address the issue, but most(almost all but not quite) of the local stations are usually quite receptive+responsive, although a "rant" is not likely to get you too far ...

Originally posted by chrisdow
Guess they just wanted to mess w/their equipment just long enuf to miss the Open! ERRRHHH!

Just in case this makes you feel any better - ABC did not air British open in HD, or even 16x9 SD widescreen -- it was 4x3 SD from ABC(same as on analog station, just upconverted to 720p by WCPO). More info in this thread :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4024290#post4024290

JunkyardDogg

07-27-04, 08:15 PM

It was an open box item that has been sitting there since May. Then it was 100, now 50, but I plan on getting it cheaper because it doesn't have remote, cables, manual. This will be ok for me because I have a Mits tv that will run this Mits 1100 series deck. However, I have heard/seen on the internet, the same unit new for around 200. I have been looking for tapes and firewire cables on the internet so I can go down and buy that deck.

DrDon

07-28-04, 12:31 PM

PSIP roulette. Now it's WKRC-DT that's missing remapping. Currently showing up as 31-1.

hugenbdd

07-28-04, 02:23 PM

DVHS
JunkyarDogg you better go buy that deck right now before someone else on the forum does.. Don't give your secrets away. Anything under $100 is a steal for that deck. However, just be careful, you need to have a MITS tv (Which you say you do) to record from another Firewire source.

Insight
Looks like Insight here in N. KY has added an HD PPV channel. Channel 799 just popped up on the screen. It doesn't say if it's HD or not, but I would assume it is cuase the other HD channels are in the 700's, so if it's not, I'm not sure why they would put a ppv in the HD area. =)

Only down side is that it has Scary Movie 3 scheduled to play for the next several weeks. =(

I guess this is why us insight customers have been seeing an outage in some of the HD channels. Since 2 weeks ago HBO, Show, and Discover were down over the weekend, and this past weekend HDNET and HDNM was also down.

FOX
Does anyone have an update on FOX? are they in 720p yet? If no one know's I guess I can get off my butt and reconnect my antenna to the MyHD card and find out.....

Dave

DrDon

07-28-04, 02:29 PM

Dave..

Guess you'll have to hook up your card :). None of us have any certain way to tell. It still BEHAVES like it did with 1080i. But Jim's E-86 tells him it's 480p and my Samsung's info button says "SD." But I can't manipulate the picture the way I can on a real 480p signal. I'm guessing something's set wrong in THEIR PSIP, too.

Doc

Dimitriz

07-28-04, 04:16 PM

My FOX was in 480P as of last night.
Cant wait for a switch. :)

1450kHz

07-28-04, 08:40 PM

Fusion app tells me it's 480p.

hugenbdd

07-28-04, 10:10 PM

Thanks 1450kHz.

Well, shortly after my post on Insight 799 and the channel was gone. Not in the guide anymore. Oh well. Maybe they just messed something up. I guess time will tell.

Thanks
Dave

Nitewatchman

07-28-04, 11:13 PM

Originally posted by 1450kHz
Fusion app tells me it's 480p.

So -- Just to be clear -- As I'd think this would(or should anyway) tell us "for sure" what EXACTLY WXIX-DT is sending(I think a Hauppage WINTV-D card has a *way* of reporting the ACTUAL pixel resolution being sent as well) ... :

Lets say -- when you record WXIX-DT's MPEG2 stream, IS the resulting image resolution of the *.tp file 704x480 (@60fps for frame rate would be the 480p they should be sending, I'd think) and not 1920x1080 (or something else) ?

http://www.dvico.com/faq/readfaq.asp?id=18&tb=FAQFusionHDTVEng

Thanks,

jim tressler

07-29-04, 08:01 AM

now wxix-dt says 1080i on my hughes.. the picture still looks like crap - fairly choppy

jim

DrDon

07-29-04, 12:44 PM

From WXIX engineering:

"I know [FOX is] behind in the installations but I do not know if this will push back the HD roll out. WXIX-TVs installation has just begun and will not be done until the later half of August. I am still planning on being ready to broadcast the 720p signal in September."

jim tressler

07-29-04, 12:50 PM

lets hope the picture improves and isnt so choppy!

Originally posted by DrDon
From WXIX engineering:

"I know [FOX is] behind in the installations but I do not know if this will push back the HD roll out. WXIX-TVs installation has just begun and will not be done until the later half of August. I am still planning on being ready to broadcast the 720p signal in September."

DrDon

07-29-04, 01:01 PM

Jim..

I'm sure the network stuff will be pristine. The switch to a progressive format might cure the jitters on local programming, but that's going to be wait-and-see.

Nitewatchman

07-29-04, 02:01 PM

It was just posted here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4123493#post4123493

That FCC has granted a waiver of the analog simulcast rule to NBC/NBC affiliates for Olympics Coverage ..... Haven't seen Info about the waiver "pop up" on FCC site yet, I'm guessing that'll probably happen tomorrow, if nowhere else in the comments concerning Docket #03-15 (2nd DTV review) which is where NBC submitted the request for the waiver.

I Hope WLWT-DT will now carry the full HD coverage instead of just during prime time hours ... Surely would be nice if they(and WKEF-DT) can do it much like they did during SLC in 2002, which I think was about 16 hours per day(the 6-8 hour blocks repeated), with some local news/etc. "mixed in" ... 24/7 would be nice too of course, since we can allways watch analog 5 for the SD programming ...

hugenbdd

07-29-04, 07:51 PM

Insight Update.

It looks like that PPV channel wasn't a fluke afterall. It appears that they will have the Mike Tyson fight. However the number Changed. It's now in the guide as 752, The next channel aboveShowtime. However it's $44.95.
The Tyson fight is also the only thing scheduled for that channel. hopefully they will add movies to it.

Dave

Carl Newman

07-30-04, 08:31 PM

Should I be able to pick up Cincy HD stations? Have noticed a couple of posters from Dayton do - but are they the exception? I live a few miles east of Dayton - MS Maps says it is 56 miles direct to the bridge, so I assume I'm in range. Have tried a few times, but no luck.

Carl

jim tressler

07-30-04, 10:10 PM

here is an email i received from wxix
=====================================
Thank you for your message. FOX19 is currently developing the ability
to broadcast in HDTV. This process should be completed by January
2005.

Thanks.

Rick Oliver
Operations Manager

-----Original Message-----
From: gb [mailto:darby427@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 7:50 AM
To: Oliver, Rick
Subject: Fox 19 - Digital

Hello Rick,

Can you provide any information on Fox 19's switchover to HDTV? Has
the
digital network splicer been installed yet, if not what is the
approximate time table? Also, I have noticed since yesterday wxix-dt
has been off the air.

Thanks for you time

Jim Tressler

Nitewatchman

07-31-04, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by Carl Newman
Should I be able to pick up Cincy HD stations? Have noticed a couple of posters from Dayton do - but are they the exception? I live a few miles east of Dayton - MS Maps says it is 56 miles direct to the bridge, so I assume I'm in range. Have tried a few times, but no luck.
Carl

Shouldn't be an exception, unless perhaps you are talking about indoor antennas, or directional antennas that are aimed at Dayton antenna farm(or elsewhere) instead of at Cincinnati(although these things can work for some depending upon location and other factors -- I don't know if I'd call them an "exception" necessarily -- Just less likely to get good results in those circumstances than if they were using a outdoor, directional antenna aimed at Cincinnati).

Anyhow, Pretty much all of the Dayton Area(S of I-70, West of I-675, East of 127 or so) lies within the coverage area of most of the Cincinnati Stations.

Unless you have some "serious enough" nearby terrain blockage issues to the SSW, from your distance(which, at 56 miles would be about as Far away as you could get from Cincinnati and still be able to say you're in the "Dayton area") I'd say you should have a good shot at it with a decent hi-gain directional antenna setup mounted outdoors and aimed towards Cincinnati Towers -- You might have a shot at Columbus too(different antenna aiming of course).

For the most part(except for the lower power stations) you should be "in range" for most of the Cincinnati stations(Digital and analog), although you are likely in the "fringe area". At following link is WCPO-DT 10 (ABC Cincinnati) Coverage map from their website, Coverage area for most of the rest of the Cincinnati digitals should be quite similar to this, at least where Dayton area is concerned.

http://www.wcpodt.com/_images/viewing_area.gif

More info on Cincinnati Stations in the 2nd post of this thread(I try to keep that post updated, BTW).

What do you get from the Cincinnati Analogs(especially UHF 19, 48, 64) -- Much snow/ghosting on those? Any visable signs of interference on any analog station/channel? What about Dayton Low power analog stations WRCX 40/WWRD-LP 55? A lot of snow or any signs of interference on those?

What sort of antenna or preamp(if any) are you using(make/model/etc) ? Are you using a rotor or muliple/seperate antennas on seperate feedlines/etc ... Might want to check your connections(and anything else that might let you know if the antenna/Feedline/etc is "working properly") and antenna aiming to make sure antenna is aimed towards Cincy+not Dayton antenna farm for best results from Cincy stations ... IF you are using a preamp, depending upon exactly Where you are and how much difference there is heading wise between Dayton antenna farm+The Cincy towers -- I suppose it's also possible from your distance from Dayton that you may be getting *too much* signal from the Dayton stations, which could overload the preamp and spread intermodulation distortion(noise) onto the Channels with the weaker signals from Cincinnati which you are trying to receive. Some preamps are better than others at handling "overload" conditions.

Keep in mind, with SOME receivers that are DBS+OTA HD receivers, you may have to Punch in a Cincy Area Zip code in order for the Cincinnati Digital(HD) stations to "properly" show up via a channel scan/etc(so it can "integrate" and "coordinate" tuning between the EPG info off the sat+the PSIP channel remapping info(if any is being sent) being sent by the station), although in most cases I'd think you should still be able to manually tune to the RF Channel(such as 31 for WKRC-DT, CBS HD Cincinnati) to see if it is there, or if you're getting any sort of indication of a signal from them.

There are some potential "co-channel interference" issues between Columbus+Cincinnati stations which may be some sort of factor for you -- Although, with a sufficently directional antenna I'd think with antenna aimed at either Cincinnati or Columbus from your location, the antenna should do a good job of rejecting the interfereing signal off the side, if you're using a receiver with a NTSC(analog) and ATSC(Digital/HD) Tuner in it, they can sometimes get "confused" and once it locks onto a analog signal on a specific channel, you may have to reoritent antenna towards the digital station on the same channel and rescan, otherwise it might get the idea that the analog signal should be the only one it "looks for" on that channel ... I'd guess that These are the Co-channel Columbus/Cincinnati area Stations:

WBNS 10(analog) Columbus - WCPO-DT 10(9-x remap) Cincinnati (I'd guess that this one(especially given that in general, VHF receiving antennas don't "usually" have the directivity of UHF antennas -- especially in VHF/UHF combo designs) might be the most difficult Cincy/Columbus co-channel issue for some folks)

WCMH-DT 14(4-1 remap) Columbus - WPTO 14(analog Oxford (transmits from Oxford)

WTTE 28(analog) Columbus - WPTO-DT 28(14-x remap) Oxford-Cincinnati(transmits from Cincinnati)

WOSU 34(analog) Columbus - WCET-DT 34 (48-x remap) Cincinnati

-----------------------------------------

I'd guess, WKRC-DT 31(usually remaps to 12-1 but not presently) and WLWT-DT 35(5-1 remap) might be the ones for you to "look for" first, as I expect those two would probably be the easiest to receive from "fringe areas".

Hope this helps, let us know if you have any luck .

Carl Newman

07-31-04, 09:51 PM

Jeff --

Thanks for the info! I think I understand most of it, and here is some preliminary follow-up. In checking, found my antenna was mis-aligned (by about 45 degrees!) Started up to re-set it, and at about 10 foot above the roof decided the wife was correct - I will let someone younger do it. Sigh.

Antenna is a Winegard HD7084P, with rotor, installed on 40' mast last spring (by someone younger). RS pre-amp (#15-2507, I think) is located inside the attic about 25' from antenna. Output from pre-amp is split for upstairs/downstairs sets. Lead to downstairs set (HDTV) is also split downstairs for TV & STB. Cable runs are all RG-6. Upstairs run is about 25' from pre-amp; downstairs is about 75'. STB is strictly ATSC tuner - our DirectTV is original 1994 unit with single satellite dish, dual LNB & separate cable runs.

The WCPO viewing area map indicates I'm in their viewing area. 19 comes in, but is very snowy. Video usually holds, audio okay. Reminds me of early days of b&w. 48 was extremely snowy - 64 did not come in. This was with antenna pointing somewhere between Dayton & Cincy, would estimate 230 degrees. Lived here for over 30 years & don't remember ever hearing of WRCX or WWRD-LP! WRCX is stable, but very snowy. WWRD did not lock. Did pick up a channel 54 from somewhere, with what appears to be harmonic interference from 45, but video subjected to constant tearing. The pre-amp has adjustable gain. I set it at appx mid-point - full gain resulted in too much interference from another channel 45. Still get some, but not too bad most of the time.

Read pre-amp specs just now - doesn't sound like that is the unit I should be using (<15dB gain, 4.5dB noise, I/O return loss 8dB). If "I/O return loss" is comparable to insertion loss from a splitter, I'd guess that the total loss from the pre-amp & splitters more than offset the gain of the pre-amp. Any recommendations on a pre-amp? The Winegard web site recommends using one of theirs. Gee - whoda thought?

A related question, if you don't mind, after reading your info & thinking about my reply. I'm contemplating "upgrading" my DirecTV to HD with the three bird dish & a 5x8 multi-switch. Would the multi-switch result in less "insertion loss" than I've got now? Another benefit would be a shorter cable run to the downstairs (ran new cables in interior walls - saves about 25').

Again, thanks for all the info. Will let you know what happens after I get the antenna "fixed"!

Carl

Nitewatchman

07-31-04, 11:30 PM

All,

Just Caught first HD I've had a chance to see from WPTO-DT 14-6 -- Looks like they are timeshifting PBS HD/widescreen programming(Great idea!), as it is NOT the same HD schedule as the PBS HD Channel Feed on WPTD-DT, WCVN-DT+WCET-DT.

Carl,

Unless it's a "mix of intermod" you're seeing(Ch 2+7 especially then 16/22/26/45 and Perhaps "herringbone" from Dayton FM stations, as well or mixes of those are probably showing up here, there and almost everywhere they shouldn't be ... This is a visable effect of "intermodulation distortion(IM) likely being created because the preamp is overloading .... If it isn't a "mix o' IM effects" .... The station you see on 54 is likely WCVN (KET/PBS) Covington, KY. If so, there would be a KET1 Bug down in RH Lower corner. Its Digital is on RF channel 24. Could be a bit of short range "tropo", I suppose but otherwise, I'd be sort of surprised that you would be seeing WCVN and not see anything from WSTR 64, although stranger things certianly have happened :)

One more suggestion FWIW -- You Might be able to get both Cincy and Dayton on one antenna heading, but I'd think you would probably also benefit from adding a rotor as well when you get the antenna "fixed", as Columbus stations should be "in range" for you as well ...

In addition to preamp overload/Intermod problems --- Sounds like you're just not getting enough signal From Cincy stations(or you're just getting too much noise from the preamp) --- Hard to say --- I could see 48, and even 40+55(its tower is near Bellbrook BTW) being a bit snowy, but, unless you have a "serious" enough Nearby terrain issue in that direction, even with the antenna a bit off target I wouldn't think 19 should be all that snowy .. Heck, I lived in Fairborn(on N Broad ST, quite Near I-675) in the 80's when going to WSU, and WXIX 19 was only a TAD snowy on Rabbit ears in 3rd floor apt(brick building with the most "walls" to the south).

So, I have to wonder if there is a possibility that there is something else "wrong" as well, such as a bad connection somewhere, unless the preamp is really "messing things up" even more than "seems" apparent ... as I'd think with that setup that you really should be seeing better results ..... Although, according to the Gain/pattern specs on the 7084 ( here(requires Acrobat reader: http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/hd7084p.pdf ) on Winegard site, it DOES seem like it has quite a "tight" pattern(excellent directivity) - especially on UHF ...

On the RS distribution amp -- Yeah, I'd get rid of that thing -- Hard to say, but things might even work better if you take the thing out of line(Might want to try it with just RG6 between antenna+STB (no splitters) to see what you get). I don't think they are talking about Insertion loss with the I/O(input/output) return loss figure(at least I hope not) -- I don't really know WHAT they are talking about there.

Although something with about 15-20db gain 3-5db NF or so would probably be right along the lines of what you are looking for -- I'd stay away from the "adjustable gain" models, they don't seem to work too well "generally speaking" ... IF you would need to "adjust gain" to keep the front end of receiver from overloading(probably should not be an issue for you, but who knows) one of RS's adjustable atteunators would be better. Remember Though -- preamps don't really "add gain" or amount of signal the antenna is "pulling in" --- They Can compensate for losses from the feedline run/insertion loss from splitting signal AND, a Hi-quality amp can lower the overall "noise figure" the front end of your receiver "sees" ... IF the preamp/front end of receiver is not overloaded and creating "extra noise"(so to speak) all over the place. ( i.e.: intermodulation distortion or, "desense" if its the receiver overloading although(I could be wrong) the latter is probably pretty rare with TV/DTV receivers but NOT FM receivers) that is ...

Anyhow -- Winegard/Blonder-Tongue and Channel Master make some nice preamps that are fairly good at not overloading when you have strong signals mixed in with the weak ones, although if you are "too close" to The Dayton TV antenna farm (or any strong nearby source of RF on VHF/UHF frequencies, as these preamps are quite broadband) -- It might get difficult to get much real benefit from a preamp w/o trapping out the strongest signals(which can get "complicated" and expensive ...).

Anyhow ... You're probably going to want to go with a mast Mount preamp instead of a distribution amp for best results, although, I have heard some folks who have tested a Motorola Drop amp(about 15db gain if I recall correctly) that is out there that seems to do VERY well when "overload issues" are a problem. Don't recall the Part #, but I think Best buy might have them. Generally though -- IMO For best results for OTA however, you'd want to get the amp as CLOSE to antenna as possible -- meaning on the mast itself ... With a mast mount preamp --- The amp itself goes Close to antenna, on the mast+is fed DC power via the coax -- The power supply goes in the house(so you can plug it in to A/C) "somewhere" BEFORE you use any passive splitters.

Personally, I currently use a 20+ year old Blonder-Tongue "suburban II" mast mount preamp with about the specs you are probably looking for, although it's hooked to a 300ohm antenna(with balun on circut board of the amp), but from the specs on the 7084 looks like you'd want to get a preamp with a 75 Ohm VHF/UHF input.

This place has most of what B-T, Winegard+CM offers(among other things -- Here's their B-T preamp page: http://www.starkelectronic.com/btk1-1.htm -- There's also a place in Dayton Called "Wintronic" that I think can get the B-T, as well as CM stuff : http://www.wintronic.com/daytonwintronic/index.htm).

I know a lot of people are using preamps like the CM7777 Which might have a little TOO much gain for you+thus overload a little too easily given the Nearby dayton stations, and also that Cincinnati isn't all that much "different" heading wise, which would make it difficult for your antenna to reject much of the strong signals from Dayton "off the side" when you're aimed towards Cincy -- Although, even the CM7777 is known for not overloading "too easily".

I'm not real sure what you are asking about the Multiswitch -- I don't use sat or Cable, and don't know much about that stuff so I probably can't help much there (Doc probably can though) ...

Only thing I could offer would be -- IF you weren't using a preamp -- I'd say It would probably help to reduce your cable run as much as possible -- And/OR get rid of the splitters or anything between antenna+receiver w/ any sort of insertion loss -A Multiswitch/diplexor WOULD have some insertion loss as well, I'd think moreso than 100' or so of Coax except for some very expensive multiswitches out there I've heard of ($$$'s but I don't know) ... BUT with a good preamp(if you can use one w/o it overloading) --- I wouldn't worry too much about the Coax run at 100~200Feet --- A good preamp should easily take care of that, as well as insertion losses to split the signal some "number of times", although hard to say HOW often you'll be able to split before it makes "enough" of a difference.

I Don't think you'd be able to use diplexors to combine feed from Sat dish/OTA antenna IF you are using a mast mount preamp, as it would "mess up" the DC Voltage that needs to go from the power supply in the house to the preamp on the past. There may be a way to make "something" like that work given the right equipment, I don't know.

Let us know how it goes,

WebHopperWeasel

08-01-04, 10:50 PM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
I'd guess, WKRC-DT 31(usually remaps to 12-1 but not presently)

Is this still a problem? I didn't know there was a problem with my re-mapping. Let me know

Weasel

microbob

08-01-04, 10:55 PM

As of this evening, it still shows 31-1 on my Zenith C34W37 HDTV instead of the usual 12-1.

DrDon

08-01-04, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by WebHopperWeasel
Is this still a problem? I didn't know there was a problem with my re-mapping. Let me know Well, it's kinda strange. On my Samsung T-151 (ATSC-ONLY), it's been 31-1 since my post a page or two back. But on my Zenith, it tunes in either location (the strange part).

When WCPO-DT had the remap bit off, the Zenith would show signal level, but no picture at 9-1, but was fine at 10-1 That's the way it NORMALLY behaves with the remap bit off. Such as with WKEF-DT and WHIO-DT. But with you, it tunes. It's almost as if the Zenith sees something the Samsung does not. FWIW, the Samsung doesn't see your timestamp, either. The Zenith gets its time info from D*.

CincySaint

08-02-04, 09:16 AM

Ugh... so I guess this means no NFL in HD this fall...

Originally posted by jim tressler
here is an email i received from wxix
=====================================
Thank you for your message. FOX19 is currently developing the ability
to broadcast in HDTV. This process should be completed by January
2005.

Thanks.

Rick Oliver
Operations Manager

-----Original Message-----
From: gb [mailto:darby427@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 7:50 AM
To: Oliver, Rick
Subject: Fox 19 - Digital

Hello Rick,

Can you provide any information on Fox 19's switchover to HDTV? Has
the
digital network splicer been installed yet, if not what is the
approximate time table? Also, I have noticed since yesterday wxix-dt
has been off the air.

Thanks for you time

Jim Tressler

Dimitriz

08-02-04, 10:42 AM

This doesnt mean anything unless you talk to the "right person"... some responses I got before I talked to CE included stuff like "We dont broadcast HD and maybe by 2006..." etc.

Originally posted by jim tressler
here is an email i received from wxix
=====================================
Thank you for your message. FOX19 is currently developing the ability
to broadcast in HDTV. This process should be completed by January
2005.

Thanks.

Rick Oliver
Operations Manager

-----Original Message-----
From: gb [mailto:darby427@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 7:50 AM
To: Oliver, Rick
Subject: Fox 19 - Digital

Hello Rick,

Can you provide any information on Fox 19's switchover to HDTV? Has
the
digital network splicer been installed yet, if not what is the
approximate time table? Also, I have noticed since yesterday wxix-dt
has been off the air.

Thanks for you time

Jim Tressler

chrisdow

08-02-04, 11:08 AM

...speaking of late-date's of technology, what ever happened to one of the local's, 9-1, I think(?) going 5.1 DD when moving to their new facility?? (not including 48-1 that is already)...

BTW...my 12-1 (w/my Hughes HDTivo box) worked fine yesterday for the Buick open(3-6pm) even though it wasn't in HD :(...

DrDon

08-02-04, 11:19 AM

WCPO-DT's plans were to do the upgrade to 5.1 sometime after the move was complete. Could be this fall, could be next spring. But - as with any move of this magnitude - they're still far from having time to fiddle with the digital. I would imagine their concentration for now is moving from temporary rigging to more permanent installations. You gotta get it ON the air, first, then nail everything down later ;). We were in our new studio for 4 months before we got into our permanent control room and when I left, the guts were still hanging out of the back of THAT console. And that's RADIO. I can't even fathom how much work it takes to do the fit-and-trim on a television studio.

In other words, we'll get it when they have engineers with nothing to do and some $$ left over in the budget.

microbob

08-02-04, 11:20 AM

I thought that would have already happened but they are still not broadcasting in 5.1. Last I heard, they were having problems with their encoder.

Nitewatchman

08-02-04, 11:45 AM

Still not getting remamp to 12-1 via PSIP here (on Zenith HDV420 - I Don't have channel remapping turned on on the DTC-100, so I can't check it)-- This has been the case since Doc first posted about it earlier last week or so. I'd guess Those that ARE getting WKRC-DT 12-1, are probably getting it via D* EPG in some fashion.

HDTVChallenged

08-02-04, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
I'd guess Those that ARE getting WKRC-DT 12-1, are probably getting it via D* EPG in some fashion.

Some receivers (like the E86) will retain a mapping once it has been stored in it's memory ... for a long time this was the only way I could access WKYT-DT when the mapping information from D*/Tribune was hosed.

Nitewatchman

08-02-04, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by Dimitriz
This doesnt mean anything unless you talk to the "right person"...

Not really. Any bit of info one can get is relevant in some fashion(even though it may not allways be 100% accurate -- such as the 2006 HD date you were given). I've talked to WXIX GM, PD and CE many times, and they know what is "going on" at their station --- As Doc mentioned, they just may have different "perspectives" on an issue such as this.

My guess is, noone there probably knows yet exactly when the splicer system needed for Fox HD will be installed at WXIX. For instance, I had heard when someone recently asked(just last week) when the HD splicer would be installed, their CE responded with "I don't have a clue". Which I'm sure was an accurate answer as well.

From what I understand(could be wrong about this though), I think they will have to be doing 720p before the install crews will even try to schedule the splicer install, so obviously, at this point it wouldn't seem that anyone there would know a "exact date" when that will occur .... and remember -- the splicer crews are busy, as they have to do the install at nearly every Fox affiliate in U.S.

The info you posted from their CE earlier in this thread seems to indicate(that's the way I read it anyway) that they plan on being READY for the Splicer upgrade by September. Perhaps their CE thinks, or has some info that indicates the install crew may be be able to schedule the splicer upgrade sooner, rather than later and hopefully that will be the case -- As soon as they ARE ready for the splicer(sending 720p/getting the necessary sat feed/etc/etc) it *could* happen. But, It *Might* be September, or it might be *December* before a splicer install crew (not the people who work on the sat feed/sat dishes) can actually do the HD upgrade at WXIX.

Therefore, Oliver is giving Jim an accurate(although perhaps not as optimistic) answer when he said the "process should be complete by Jan 2005". It *might* be complete in September, October, Nov or December -- Any way you look at it, it *should* be complete by Jan 2005.

I've heard that Fox plans on having all the affiliates upgraded by the end of the year, and also that they want to shut down the Fox Widescreen distribution system by the end of the year. Therefore, again -- it *should* be the case that Oliver's statement will be accurate, whether WXIX-DT starts sending HD in September, or December.

Personally, I wouldn't count on seeing FOX HD from WXIX-DT until I see it on my screen. As for speculation -- I'd speculate we'll probably see Fox HD from WXIX-DT sometime between Mid-september and late January ...

Also, Keep in mind, WRGT-DT, Fox Dayton already has the FOX HD upgrade(splicer/etc) "installed" --- That happened in May. For those between Cincy+Indy -- Splicer is already installed at WXIN-DT Indy. For those South of the river(and maybe North of river in some circumstances as well) There is even a possibility that WDKY-DT 4, Lexington, KY will not only get the splicer upgrade "soon"("sometime this fall"), but will also move to full power "soon" from their new tower which is currently under construction. Not sure about the status of Fox Columbus or Louisville.

WebHopperWeasel

08-02-04, 01:07 PM

The Re-mapping on WKRC-DTV is now fixed.

If there is problems again feel free to private message me or call.

Weasel

DrDon

08-02-04, 01:43 PM

Thanks, Weasel. Will do. Ditto Jeff's post, below. Samsung caught it automatically. Any guesses as to why it didn't catch ALL the boxes like WCPO-DT's did?

Nitewatchman

08-02-04, 01:46 PM

Weasel,

Thanks for being so responsive, will do. It isn't a problem for me whether or not it remaps, but I know it can effect some equipment.

BTW, Zenith HDV420 recognized the remap "automatically"(I was already "sitting" on 31-1 during lunch) at approx 1:19pm here.

Looking forward(hopefully) to the HD-one HD airing this month ...

jim tressler

08-03-04, 11:30 AM

question with next monday nights HOF game being on abc and hi-def , I am assuming that wcpo-dt will carry it in full high def - 16x9 and 720p?? - no crappy side bars or upconverted sd material?

thanks

jim

Paul210

08-03-04, 11:34 AM

Appears to be, according to TitanTv, but you never know.

WCPODT 10 (10.1) Monday 8/9/2004 8:00 PM, 3 hrs

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Monday Night Football

Exhibition: Broncos vs. Redskins

Washington vs. Denver in the annual Hall of Fame exhibition in Canton, Ohio. Al Michaels and John Madden return to the broadcast booth, with Michele Tafoya joining the team as on-field reporter.
High Definition (HD)

DrDon

08-03-04, 12:57 PM

Jim..

Barring other technical issues, WCPO-DT has been great about carring ABC-HD football in full 720p. If they don't switch, then something crapped out. I'm sure the digital installation still falls under my "temporary" rigging comments from above. Just hope we don't have severe weather. Whenever they put up a bug, the integrated HD switcher "takes" the SD feed.

Wouldn't hurt for you to write WCPO-DT and tell them how much you're looking forward to HD football, yada yada yada. Assuming you haven't <g>.

Doc

jim tressler

08-03-04, 01:03 PM

i guess a better question is - how did they do it last year? I would imagine if they did it correctly last year then this year should be no different

jim

jim tressler

08-03-04, 01:03 PM

good idea doc!

DrDon

08-07-04, 12:00 PM

WLWT-DT Olympics update.

Sort of. Had a conversation with one of the techs who says WLWT's HD Olympic plans still are not nailed down, but HE's under the assumption that they're carrying the whole 24-hour loop EXCEPT for those times WLWT is airing local news. To me, this is a plus as it makes me think some local sponsors are watching the DT enough that they can't just throw the switch and forget about it.

psm0110

08-09-04, 11:16 PM

Dr Don: we think alike! I just wrote them about their schedule posted on the web. Man, I hope you're right and it's wrong!

Dear Sirs:

I just read that NBC got some kind of analog-simulcast waiver from the FCC to broadcast the Olympics in HDTV 24/7. When I look at WLWT-DT's schedule for the next two weeks it doesn't seem to have the 8-hour loop 3 times a day like NBC's national HD schedule. Please say this is a mistake! If I want to watch Judge Judy it's pretty easy to switch over to the analog input.

Your OTA DTV viewers are a special bunch and crave every last drop of saturated MPEG goodness you can provide. If I didn't write before -- thank you a million times over for dropping the subchannel! Your picture rocks - it's the best in town!!

Nitewatchman

08-10-04, 12:22 AM

Originally posted by psm0110
I just wrote them about their schedule posted on the web.

I'm sure the schedule is wrong ... I think it was probably back in Feb 2002 when there was any programming which differed on WLWT/WLWT-DT (Winter 2002 Olympics HD coverage) .... Which of course was before analog simulcast rule went into effect ..

If anyone wants to see it -- Here's the waiver of Analog Simulcast Rule for All NBC affiliates for Summer Games(requires Acrobat reader) - Issued by FCC on 7/28/04 :

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-04-2335A1.pdf

Of course, only a few Days after issuing the waiver on 8/4/04 -- Not sure when it goes into effect but, as part of the report and order concerning their 2nd DTV review --- FCC decided to do away with the analog simulcast rule alltogether (Could be reinstated in the future however) ... See here(link requires acrobat reader) :

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-250542A1.pdf

DrDon

08-10-04, 08:07 AM

Relax. My contact is a little more definite, now. WLWT-DT will now carry the whole HD Olympic loop. I still can't guarantee they won't drop it for local news. But I'll take 21/7 any day.

Dimitriz

08-10-04, 01:18 PM

Today Fox Tech is installing equipment at the station.
The new satellite antenna has not been installed and would take at least 3 weeks to do so. (= no early Sept. rollout)

Either way, the "hope" of the earliest 720p is late September at best.

psm0110

08-10-04, 04:36 PM

Doc: I got confirmation back from their engineer and program director:

We are indeed planning to "sit" on the NBC HD feed 24/7 for our DTV source. You will get all the MPEG goodness we can provide.

DrDon

08-10-04, 04:38 PM

And a full 19Mb/s of MPEG goodness, at that!!

chrisdow

08-11-04, 10:51 AM

I assume this has been brought up before but here's a basic question about OTA locals vs TWC locals & an HD content contest:

Who's got more?

Did I read somewhere that TWC (or Voom for that matter) has local in HD all the time, 24/7? How is that possible isn't all the content still coming from all the same local broadcaster? Isn't HD content dictated by the networks broadcast in? Maybe they're not getting from locals??...I just would like some assurance that I am getting "all drops" of HD content possible...Thanks!
PS I'm a D* guy with an antennae

DrDon

08-11-04, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by chrisdow
How is that possible isn't all the content still coming from all the same local broadcaster? You're correct. And VOOM's model is the same as D* ..your local HD is OTA. I think the cable folks simply mean that their local channels are in 1080i or 720p full time, just like the broadcaster's transmitter. Doesn't mean that the source material is HD.
I just would like some assurance that I am getting "all drops" of HD content possible...Thanks!
PS I'm a D* guy with an antennae W/r/t locals, you'll actually do better. With an antenna, you can pick up (depending on where you are) Cincy AND Dayton HD locals, plus all of the digital channels that aren't in HD. Cable can only carry the stations licensed to serve their area. In other words, if WCPO's DT transmitter goes down, you can't switch to WDTN-DT for Monday Night Football. Using OTA, you're only limited by what your antenna can receive.

Mini Yoda

08-11-04, 12:12 PM

Dr. Don, I too live in Florence (as you indicate in your user info). I'm not able to pick up Datyon HD locals, but it might be becasue of where I'm located and where my antenna is. I'm south of the mall off Weaver road. Are you able to pick up Dayton locals where you are in Florence?

Yoda

DrDon

08-11-04, 12:14 PM

Yeah, but I have some massive metal in the attic. Helped a guy on Hopeful Church with an install. He had a small combo in his attic and can get 2, 7 and 22's DT signals, too. If you're on the back side of 42, the hill may be in your way. If you can go up or hang more aluminum in the air, you might have a shot at them.

Mini Yoda

08-11-04, 12:41 PM

I live in a condo community, so anything outside is a no-no (took a fight to get the DirecTV installed). I might try the attic. Thanks for the advice.

DrDon

08-11-04, 12:44 PM

Let me know if I can be of help. I have a small yagi I'd be happy to loan you to use as a signal sniffer.

APorter

08-14-04, 08:53 AM

Posted this over in the Hardware section with no response, so I'm asking the knowledgable posters over here for help.

In preparation to switching from Time Warner to satellite (don't know which company yet) and having the ability to pull in both Cincinnati and Dayton (Flyers basketball) locals I want to install an antenna in my attic. I already have a run of Rg6 going through the attic to spare bedroom. My thinking was that I could cut that Rg6 and crimp on a new f connector for the attic antenna. The rg6 runs to the basement where i would need a splitter with at least two "Ins". Does this sound correct? If the antenna is an indoor antenna does it need to be grounded? Last question, whats the best way to get cable back to the spare bedroom? There may be another run of Rg6 that goes to another bedroom in the attic.

Thanks
Andre

DrDon

08-14-04, 09:46 AM

Andre..

You don't need two "ins" ..you need two "outs." You're taking one antenna to several rooms, I take it.

I'm also guessing you're in a position where you won't need to move the antenna to pick up both cities, or you plan only to use the attic antenna for Dayton and use something else for Cincinnati. Or you're close enough to the Cincinnati towers that they'll come in no mattter where you point it.

A typical antenna setup should look like this: Antenna -> preamp -> preamp power supply -> splitter -> tvs.

Remember, attics are multipath nightmares. If there's any way to put one on the roof (preferably with a rotor) then do it.

Good luck

Doc

chrisdow

08-14-04, 10:34 AM

Was anyone else surprised or disappointed on how the OTA Olympics were handled last nite by nbc/hd local? The good:
-great picture
-delayed only about 30 minutes behind SD channel
The bad:
-some no-name announcers doing opening ceremonies(would it have been too difficult to just 'overlay' Bob & Katie's voices over those great pictures?)
-no 5.1

...guess it's another get what you're given & like it situation...DrDon, still think OTA is better than TWC? :-)

DrDon

08-14-04, 11:20 AM

Chrisdow..

Edited after watching a few hours

I now think DirecTVs PQ is much closer to WLWT-DTs than I first thought. In some shots, it seems better, but in some shots, WLWT's seems better. To my eyes WKEF-DT trails them both, but not by much. DirecTV does have DD5.1. All things considered, I'll take the better PQ over the better sound. I'm really happy everybody carried it. Was really expecting WKEF-DT to either miss it or run late.

I do prefer Costas, but can't stand Couric. Since the HD version showed more of the opening than the SD version did, an audio overlay would have had serious gaps. But I also can't wait for the '06 winter games when it's a combined production.

APorter

08-14-04, 06:17 PM

Dr. Don,

Thanks for responding. I was thinking a splitter with two "Ins" for antenna and satellite. At my old house I thought this was how I was able to run Directv and cable to all tv's throughout the house but probably wrong(it's been two years). I live one block south of Fairfield and can currently pick up Dayton's channel seven with indoor antenna on top of 2nd floor tv with no problem no matter which way I point antenna. The antenna feed will be going to two rooms, family room and ht room in basement. From your reply It looks like I will have to run another rg6 line to family room, the basement is still in framing stage.

bsherm

08-14-04, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by chrisdow
Was anyone else surprised or disappointed on how the OTA Olympics were handled last nite by nbc/hd local? The good:
-great picture
-delayed only about 30 minutes behind SD channel
The bad:
-some no-name announcers doing opening ceremonies(would it have been too difficult to just 'overlay' Bob & Katie's voices over those great pictures?)
-no 5.1

Actually your bad was my good :) . Katie Couric is such an inane announcer, I liked the "no-names" better (after realizing the delay, and watching the same piece in Hi-Def.

My big disappointment is the continual cycle of opening ceremony running today... when will we get fresh coverage in Hi-Def?

DrDon

08-14-04, 08:14 PM

Bsherm..

The day-delay "loops" are fresh every day at 4AM ET. And they run three times at 8 hours each. Currently, there's nothing else from yesterday TO loop. Tomorrow will be different.

Aporter

You're talking about a Diplexer, which allows satellite and OTA (or cable) signals to be put on the same coax. Since you can't split satellite, any diplexer would have to go between the OTA line splitter in my diagram above and the STBs.

Unless you were working with an older multisatellite dish with a 5X4 multiswitch, then you could run the antenna into that.

chrisdow

08-15-04, 12:31 AM

...yeah, I'm not a fan of the "perky-one" either! When/and/why again did this concept/need for a combined broadcast happen? there's not any other event that I can think of that's this has happened with, is there? -not even Superbowl...
DrDon, Are we watching the same D* signal? The SD channel has never come close to the ota HD channel - how could it? Did the standards change? As far as 5.1 is not on any network either, that I know of...should I check again?

DrDon

08-15-04, 09:06 AM

Chrisdow..

I was talking about DirecTV channel 84 which is running the same NBC-HD Olympic Loop as WLWT-DT and WKEF-DT. D* looked a little soft on Friday night, but is far sharper, now.

goldrich

08-15-04, 09:23 AM

Thanks to WLWT-DT and its great signal, along with some nice tropspheric enhancement in the area this morning, I've been watching the Summer Olympics coverage for the past two hours here in Indy. I'm 101 miles from the WLWT tower. My local NBC affiliate, WTHR-DT, just 3 miles away, is only airing the HD programming from 11:35 p.m. until around 3 or 4 a.m. "Due to commercial contractural obligations" is the only reason given by the CE. Congratulations for having a local station that wants to serve its local viewers. Unfortunately, we can't say that in Indy right now.................

Steve

DrDon

08-15-04, 09:39 AM

Originally posted by goldrich
"Due to commercial contractural obligations" Sounds like the bozos included their DT signal in all of their advertising contracts to make themselves seem bigger and are now stuck. That or they have a couple of HD-owning big clients who blow a nut when they don't see their spots on the DT. Shame. If they'd been thinking about it, they could have made even MORE money with precious little effort. NBC is giving up what appears to be around 6 minutes an hour local stations could sell on the HD feed. I could put those 6 minutes and some analog-channel promo mentions together into a package that could have snared nearly 6-figures for a market the size of Indy. What's sad is the number of stations that still don't think to take advantage of things like this. As you've noticed, WLWT-DT's coverage is running with no local ads and has been entirely unmentioned on their analog station. Mi$$ed opportunitie$. I have bite my tongue when I hear them say, "We don't make any money off of our digital signal..." [/rant]

Nitewatchman

08-15-04, 12:38 PM

Yes -- Keep in mind though, WLWT-DT had only planned on prime time hours for HD Olympics coverage, until the waiver for analog simulcast rule was issued just a couple weeks ago ... Not that that should have kept them from promoting the HD coverage or selling some spots ....

Concerning WLWT/WKEF HD PQ ... I surely would like to see 18mb/s+ for HD video from WKEF-DT's encoder, as I have a feeling if that were to happen WKEF-DT might have the PQ edge ...

DrDon

08-15-04, 12:46 PM

Jeff...
I could STILL have made them fifty grand with just the primetime HD coverage.

Weasel..
New person on Master Control? Noticed a lot of missed HD rejoins, yesterday during golf and "Navy NCIS." Methinks the regular person is on vacation. :)

WebHopperWeasel

08-15-04, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by DrDon
Weasel..
New person on Master Control? Noticed a lot of missed HD rejoins, yesterday during golf and "Navy NCIS." Methinks the regular person is on vacation. :)

I will check into this... hmm....

Nitewatchman

08-15-04, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by DrDon
Jeff...
I could STILL have made them fifty grand with just the primetime HD coverage.

Oops, you must've read that just before I(quickly) edited it slightly ...<g>

-----------------

ETC ...

WKRC-DT/HD-One?

Did WKRC-DT run HD airing of HDone movie this month yet? I've been very busy, so didn't notice it if they did ...

WXIX-DT Weirdscreen today :
Noticed WXIX-DT was in weirdscreen mode for Fox News Sunday when I checked it about 10:15 this morning, but, since then when I've looked it looks like they are currently "set" for proper Fox AR (but not of course for proper AR for FoX local/Syndicated - I figure, either Doc or someone else called them post 10:15 or they have the settings "backwards" today ....

WLWT-DT/EIA-708 "digital" captions

Funny thing, I'm getting EIA-708 digital captions from WLWT-DT during HD Olympics on Zenith HDV420 box here--- BUT the captions are for the SD Olympics coverage(BB game currently) ... Not sure if it's local or nat'l issue ...

WCVN-DT/EIA-708 Digital captions

Speaking of EIA 708 captions -- I've noticed over the last week or so (when I've had a chance to check it) that the Zenith box is now properly displaying 708 captions from all 4 KET services --- I haven't had a chance yet to check PBS HD, but it was working on KET4+CPB/Annenburg.

So -- Now I'm getting proper 708 captions from WLWT-DT+WCVN-DT ... That's 2 out of the 15 DTV Cincy/Dayton DTV stations I receive anyway, so I suppose it's progress ... I'm not hearing impaired BTW, but I do occasionally use captions, and the HDV420 only supports 708 captions, although if I send 480i from the STB, I can decode 608 analog captions, as they are encoded along with the video)

WDTN-DT/EIA-708 captions :

I do see the 708 captions from WDTN-DT occasionally as well, but only if I was tuned to WLWT-DT or WCVN-DT immediately before switching to WDTN, and I can't turn the 708 captions off/on on WDTN-DT as I can with WLWT-DT or WCVN-DT ...

PrivatePixel

08-15-04, 08:17 PM

So long as we have football on HD in Cincinnati,I'm happy. :D

DrDon

08-15-04, 08:40 PM

Originally posted by PrivatePixel
So long as we have football on HD in Cincinnati,I'm happy. :D You will, but, sadly, for the first week of the NFL season, it might only be Monday Night Football on WCPO-DT. Fox has the doubleheader on week one, so WKRC will show Cincy at Jets, which is not in HD. If WXIX-DT doesn't have their gear in place, then there's no broadcast HD in Cincy that Sunday. <sigh>

Doc

William Smith

08-16-04, 09:58 AM

The KET encoders got a software upgrade last week to support 708 captions.

Here is a link to some new stuff we are running as OP data. I do NOT want any hate mail over bandwidth usage. These services are dynamic and run at less than 500 kb average during HD broadcasts. ( which is a close to the limit as I dare run the HD anyway.)

http://www.ket.org/dtv/datacasting.htm

HDTVChallenged

08-16-04, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by William Smith
I do NOT want any hate mail over bandwidth usage.

Not gonna send "hate mail" ... but I do wonder if the folks behind this have heard of this new fangled thingy called an "Internet."

Anyway, I guess the updates may explain some of the glitches (no video on KET4) last week.

DrDon

08-16-04, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by HDTVChallenged
I do wonder if the folks behind this have heard of this new fangled thingy called an "Internet." LOL!! Although, given some of the areas of Kentucky I've driven through, I imagine that "thingy" called the internet doesn't come in at more than 9600bps ..and that's after many, many redial attempts. ;) For those rural fire departments, this is probably a godsend.

jim tressler

08-16-04, 11:18 AM

Hey Doc - where did you get that info - I cant find any hd football schedules out anywhere yet!

thanks

jim

Originally posted by DrDon
You will, but, sadly, for the first week of the NFL season, it might only be Monday Night Football on WCPO-DT. Fox has the doubleheader on week one, so WKRC will show Cincy at Jets, which is not in HD. If WXIX-DT doesn't have their gear in place, then there's no broadcast HD in Cincy that Sunday. <sigh>

Doc

DrDon

08-16-04, 11:26 AM

I got the HD games lists from the stickys at the top of the HDTV programming forum. Who has doubleheader rights on any give week is known as is the fact WKRC-DT will always carry the Bengals away games when they're on CBS. So, that'll be their only game on week one. The CBS early HD games are Tennessee at Miami and Oakland at Pittsburgh. There are no late CBS games on week one.

HDTVChallenged

08-16-04, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by DrDon
For those rural fire departments, this is probably a godsend.

Well .... there's this other thingy called "packet radio" (HF) that's been around for ages too ... Oh well, I guess the datacasting thing does help insure that the state will keep funding KET which is a "good thing."

William Smith

08-16-04, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by HDTVChallenged
Not gonna send "hate mail" ... but I do wonder if the folks behind this have heard of this new fangled thingy called an "Internet."

Anyway, I guess the updates may explain some of the glitches (no video on KET4) last week.

Actually, Utility crews have been using it in Western Ky to monitor weather while in the field so they can get clear in the event of approaching storms. The Internet works if you have two way data support. This is for those who have to have information when normal lines of communication are unavailable.

P.S. Its free..

PrivatePixel

08-16-04, 07:41 PM

Ugh....have to watch the Bengals game on channel 3(Fox)....I get horrible reception on the bigscreen for that channel.I'm stuck watching it here in the computer room on the little 25" where it looks decent.

DrDon

08-16-04, 07:58 PM

It's not HD or even ED, but the Bengals game picture on WXIX-DT is supurb on my standard TV. Haven't been to the basement to look at it on the HDTV, yet.

Noticed WKEF-DT has put a bug up on their HD Olympic feed.

PrivatePixel

08-16-04, 08:05 PM

ya,I get a really poor signal on local chanels on my 60"....but I have to use 480dp.

chrisdow

08-16-04, 10:13 PM

Ok, I'm officially PISSXXX! To say this ota HD is less than an exact is the understatment of the frickin' year!
I plunked down a grand for an HDTivo unit that could stockpile the little HD conent out there-a perfect combo for today programming, right? WRONGO! 1st it was the British open where abc-local decided to remap their channel up the dial on THE weekend of the tourey & when I go out of town. (they've sinced changed it back) That tourney ended in a very exciting playoff...so I heard anyway. Then this last weekend, cbs-local blows their coverage both weekend days. The signal went away in the middle of coverage Sunday! (got a recording-error that said there's no content to record)...that too ended in an exciting playoff...I now have set-up rendundancy w/my other tivo. Didn't know that would be a necessary evil...and that's my rant for the day! ;)

DrDon

08-16-04, 10:29 PM

chrisdow

Really?! I was in and out of the golf on WKRC-DT all day, bouncing from that to Olympics and back, but never noticed any issues with either one.

Nitewatchman

08-16-04, 10:42 PM

William,

Seems like a good use for oppurtunistic bandwidth to me ...

What NPT wants to do with datacasting is WAY out of hand though IMO :

http://www.current.org/dtv/dtv0413datacast.shtml

All I can say is, as a OTA only viewer I'm glad I don't live in Central TN ... They certianly don't seem very interested in directly serving THIS small part of the "public interest" .... Interestingly enough, I had read through APTS's comments concerning FCC's public notice asking questions about OTA only viewers, and, in one appendix it shows statistics of Nashville DMA as having over 900K TV HH, 15.3% of which do not subscribe to cable/sat/etc, and Cincy TV HH at 876K with 20% of viewers that do NOT subscribe to cable/sat/etc ...

HDTVChallenged

08-16-04, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
What NPT wants to do with datacasting is WAY out of hand though IMO :

http://www.current.org/dtv/dtv0413datacast.shtml

I have no words to adequately describe my thoughts on the above usage of the TV spectrum.

PS: William, I hope these "utility companies" also happen to be significant donors to KET system. ;)

William Smith

08-17-04, 09:38 AM

This ( along with all KET services)is a public service, its more bandwidth efficient than a sub channel dedicated to weather radar. ( did you watch the video?) We're working to add county by county alerting to the base product.

I am deeply offended by HDC 's remarks about the power companies being donors, the service is available to anyone who buys the hardware.

UK Ag weather is helping with some of the weather data and they want farmers to use the system as well.

HDTVChallenged

08-17-04, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by William Smith
I am deeply offended by HDC 's remarks about the power companies being donors, the service is available to anyone who buys the hardware.

Why? I would expect that any entity (person or business) that derives a significant benefit from KET to contribute to the cause ... otherwise it's just us individual taxpayers footing the whole bill .. nothing is "free" ... This is a point that has been hammered over and over by certain "commercial broadcasters" yes?

PS: Perhaps I shouldn't have responded to two seperate posts with a single post of my own ... I may have given the wrong impression that I was upset with KET whereas it was actually the NPT (Nashville) article that got my hackles up.

1450kHz

08-17-04, 12:03 PM

It's not HD or even ED, but the Bengals game picture on WXIX-DT is supurb on my standard TV. Haven't been to the basement to look at it on the HDTV, yet.
Looked decent on WRGT-DT in Dayton too, upconverted to 720p. I didn't get a chance to check WXIX as I knocked my Cincinnati antenna out of alignment fiddling with my Columbus one to get WCMH for the Olympics.

Noticed WKEF-DT has put a bug up on their HD Olympic feed.
I saw that too. Nothing like more screen clutter, and more reason for me to watch WLWT or WCMH instead.

1450kHz

08-17-04, 11:18 PM

Has WSTR-DT 33 increased power?

I actually got them to lock in with a picture tonight. I'm northeast of Dayton.

Enhanced conditions maybe?

Nitewatchman

08-17-04, 11:50 PM

Can't tell anything different here with WSTR-DT presently, of course it would be nice to have a REAL S meter on the DTV receiver, but seeing how far I can rotate antenna off target+still get them(or watching the signal quality meter while rotating) often works fairly well to get an idea of how strong the signal actually is, and I'm not seeing anything different there with them ...

I suppose It could be a bit of ground scatter .. It's pretty common in the summer months here but I am getting weak but steady signals from the Lexington UHF analogs and WKON 52, Owenton, KY tonight So conditions are a bit above "dead band" From the South here presently ...

jim tressler

08-18-04, 07:28 AM

Is it just me or does the wxix-dt picture look "choppy"? I have the hughes htl-hd directv ird - signal strenghth is "good" - all other hd locals look fine.. just this one is funny.. any thoughts?

thanks

jim

DrDon

08-18-04, 08:22 AM

Jim..

You mean more than usual? It's always been that way when they're showing upconverted programming. Only when they take the Fox Digital network directly (and select the proper stretch mode) does it ever look like it's supposed to.

jim tressler

08-18-04, 10:41 AM

thats a good question doc.. in the past 30 days that I have had the hdtv - it is the same - hasnt changed - and I will admit i dont belive i have watched anything that was directly from the network - its all been local stuff. What is a good program to watch that "shouldnt" have the choppies?

jim

DrDon

08-18-04, 10:44 AM

Any of the Fox dramas. They will also take the Fox Digital network's feed of SD primetime shows, too, but not always. Fox Widescreen sports has been a mixed bag. Sometimes it looks really good, sometimes it jitters, too.

jim tressler

08-18-04, 11:09 AM

ok.. well as long as I am not the only one seeing it.. do you think the upgrade will fix that?

DrDon

08-18-04, 12:32 PM

Jim..

Good question. Simply switching to 720p might even solve it. I somehow doubt the new splicer gear will do much of anything when the station's in "local mode" unless WXIX-DT replaces/tweaks their upconverter. The FOX stuff will look better because it'll be HD and the transmission scheme bypasses the station's equipment entirely.

Unfortunately, Shiela Gray's image still has to travel through the traditional route.

Grazant

08-18-04, 04:07 PM

I was looking into any movement on the ESPN-HD TWC front and came across this, just in case anyone was interested here in Cincy

Originally posted by wilkinsjme
Maybe not 2006.

I only hope this means ESPN-HD as well.....

http://199.249.170.186/thr/television/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000613320

Most of the article seems to be about the ABC Family channel but here are a few notable quotes.

"Sources say Disney is close to finalizing a new broad carriage deal with Time Warner Cable for all of Disney's programming properties, which is expected to include a slight rate increase for ABC Family."

"All Disney properties are on the negotiation table in a complex carriage deal nearing completion with Time Warner, which also includes retransmission consent for the ABC O&Os in markets served by Time Warner Cable systems."

"Price breaks on valuable assets like ESPN can be used to gain or stabilize distribution for new or underperforming channels. "

This is from the "Any ESPN-HD movement on TWC ??" thread

Dixon4UK

08-19-04, 11:35 PM

I have done my best to read most of this thread so I don't repeat questions that have been asked in the past but I am kinda starting square one when it comes to OTA HD.

My issue is probably a common one. Currently, I have TWC and quite frankly I am fed up with my service and I am very close to ordering D* (DirectTV in your speak I believe). My plan is to order DirectTV and get the HD package and install an antenna on my house to receive OTA local HD broadcast. I am also excited about the Sunday Ticket package carrying 100 HD games this year.

I need help selecting the proper antenna to get the best possible setup I can. I have been to antennaweb.org and based on my location West Side of Hamilton (Butler Cty.) and it recommends a large directional antenna. I am looking for advice on what make/model antenna I need to get and where would be a good place to purchase from that perhaps allows returns so I can ensure I get the best solution for me.

My location seems to be an ideal spot - its on top of a hill that is one of the higher spots in the county and I have a pretty clear line of site to both Dayton and Cincinnati towers. Could it mean I may not need a larger antenna, rotor, pre-amp, etc?

I'm very sorry for the long post but I wanted to explain as much as possible in hopes of getting some help as I have visited so many websites in the last week my head is spinning. I'll be glad to provide any additional information you may need to provide assistance.

Thank you!!

Nitewatchman

08-20-04, 03:54 AM

Dixon4UK,

Welcome to AVS! Feel free to ask us any questions you might have -- You should be in a excellent spot for OTA HD/DTV reception from Dayton/Cincinnati. 2nd post of this thread has info on the Cincinnati stations, you can find info on the Dayton stations in Dayton thread.

I wouldn't think you'd need a large antenna from your location for Dayton/Cincy -- Antennaweb's predictions seem to be much more conservative than it used to be. I'd think you would have a good shot at it with a small/medium sized (directional) VHF/UHF combo antenna - Radio Shack, Channel master(Lowe's has some of their stuff), and Winegard are a few you would want to look into. Even a UHF antenna, such as a CM4221 *might* do the trick for you, even though ABC Cincinnati HD is on VHF 10(rest of Cincinnati/Dayton Digitals are currently on UHF).

A rotor would likely pretty much be a necessity for Both Dayton and Cincinnati, but you would probably want to try a little "manual rotation" first to see how it works --- Or -- You could use seperate antennas(on seperate feedlines) For Dayton/Cincinnati and use a A/B switch near the receiver to select between the antennas -- I do this here (I'm North of Middletown, BTW) and it is more convienent than using a rotor -- And -- as far as the 2nd cable run to 2nd antenna goes -- with a rotor, you would need to run a 2nd cable (the rotor control cable), anyway.

As for a preamp -- You probably won't need it, but then again, if you have a long cable run, or are going to be splitting the signal to many devices/TV's a preamp might be benefical for you -- I'd try it w/o a preamp first and see how it goes, though -- Sometimes a preamp can hurt more than it helps, or vice versa, and you probably don't want to get something too "high gain" from your location ... Winegard, Channel Master+Blonder-Tongue make some nice mast mount preamps, RS preamps should generally be avoided as they generally overload quite easily ...

You might find this link handy, as this place carries antennas/preamps/etc/etc, in all shapes and sizes, and generally provides good specs on the equipment :

http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm

Oh -- By the way -- Hopefully a helpful hint antenna wise -- What works good for Analog reception works good for Digital Too or vice versa -- RF is RF, both Digtal and analog use the same frequencies/channel (TV VHF/UHF bands - Ch 2-69) no such thing as a "HD" or "digital" antenna.

jim tressler

08-20-04, 09:05 AM

Last nights nfl game on wxix-dt showed the same choppyness - plus there was no sound for the first quarter. I even tried 720p and 1080i - same thing - it did go into full 16:9 in 720p - but at the native (as the huges htl-hd sees it) 480p was weirdscreen.

jim

Originally posted by DrDon
Jim..

Good question. Simply switching to 720p might even solve it. I somehow doubt the new splicer gear will do much of anything when the station's in "local mode" unless WXIX-DT replaces/tweaks their upconverter. The FOX stuff will look better because it'll be HD and the transmission scheme bypasses the station's equipment entirely.

Unfortunately, Shiela Gray's image still has to travel through the traditional route.

DrDon

08-20-04, 09:11 AM

Jim..

When you see (or hear) a problem from WXIX-DT, call the newsroom: 513-421-0119 and ask them to pass the message on. I didn't check the game until halfway through "Big Brother," but I called them the moment I noticed the sound was off. They had it back on seconds later. As usual, I was the only one to call. :)

Doc

jim tressler

08-20-04, 09:12 AM

ok.. thats good to know - I will definatly do that next time :) - maybe I will tell them that their picture still looks like crap too! lol

Dixon4UK

08-20-04, 11:49 AM

Nitewatchman,

Thank you very much for your quick response and great advice. I think the best place for me to start is to get the Cincy channels in as best as possible and then try to expand from there. In general, do you think I would need a rotor to "lock" in each of the Cincy channels?

I'm concerned with running two antennas on the house because its going to be a fight with the wife just to have one ;) My feedlines shouldn't have to be that long and I only plan on running them to one television at this time. What would be considered a long length for feedlines?

One other question for now (sorry to bug) is how would the setup work if I had a rotor in the mix, is there some sort of control box specifically for it? can it be set to turn appropriately when I change my HD tuner to a different channel? by remote perhaps?

Thanks again,

Dixon4UK

Nitewatchman

08-20-04, 12:13 PM

Dixon4UK,

Good Idea to start out simple and add rotor/etc. later if you decide its necessary. For instance -- Start with just the antenna, and rotate it by hand towards either Dayton or Cincinnati and see what you get before deciding to add the rotor ... Of course, you could even start simpler than that if you want, even a indoor "settop" antenna setup(especially one placed near a window facing the towers instead of actually "on" the settop") might provide decent results, although getting the antenna outside is likely to produce much better results with less overall "fussing" with the antenna ...

From your location you shouldn't need a rotor at all for just the Cincinnati stations, the Cincy towers(Just North of Downtown Cincinnati -- WCVN in N Ky is in Taylor Mill KY, about 6 miles South of Downtown) should all be within a 10 degree or so bearing from your location.

Anything over 150 feet or so would be getting into a bit of a long feedline run, but it really just depends on how much signal you have to start out with -- From the Cincinnati stations especially with the use of a properly orientated+installed decent small/medium sized directional antenna(such as say, RS VU-90, CM 3016/etc), I'm thinking you'll have plenty of signal, especially since you are on a hill and you're putting the antenna outside.

Yes, Rotors have a control box you usually put near your TV, a control cable runs between the rotor itself and the controller. Channel Master (CM9521 I *think* is the part number -- not sure, but think Lowe's has these as well) has a rotor which also has a remote. Generally, rotor control boxes have a Azimuth display(Degrees+N/S/E/W/Etc), to show you where the antenna is pointed.

-----------------------------

All,

Only caught last couple minutes of the Giants/Panthers game last night, but, I was surprised at how much better the Fox WS looked on WRGT-DT than on WXIX-DT ... Not only was the WXIX-DT "jitter" not present on WRGT-DT, for the first time I've noticed it looked quite a bit "sharper" on WRGT-DT to my eyes ... Can't figure it out unless very recently WXIX-DT did actually switch from sending 1080i to 480p. Although, I find that unlikely, as the post game show looked pretty much exactly the same from both the stations, unlike the game ...

In other words, I thought it looked pretty much like what we've seen previously from Fox WS sports on WXIX-DT, but, PQ was much improved on WRGT-DT, I expect because Fox was doing the production in 720p HD before it was downconverted and sent via Fox WS(480i 16x9 "anamorphic) distribution system. I also thought it looked better last night from WRGT-DT than what we got(for the most part) from the All Star Game, even though that was produced in 720p and downcoverted For Fox WS as well.

So, If Fox WS looked that good on WRGT-DT last night, I'm really looking forward to soon seeing what Fox HD looks like from WRGT-DT, and "whenever" from WXIX-DT ... Of course, I'm looking forward to seeing NFL HD on CBS HD (such as tonight) from WKRC-DT to see the improvement from increased bitrate over last couple of years as well ..