Cincinnati, OH - HDTV [Text View] - Page 47

Nitewatchman

06-28-09, 12:29 AM

Not decoding WDKY on 31 quite as often I did when they were on 4, still, then again, I had them locked about an hour or two after they fired up on 31 back late night June 12/early AM June 13 ... Of the Central KY UHF's, Looks like I'll be seeing them on 31 about as often as I am used to getting WUPX .....

I also have a feeling we're going to be seeing some stations a lot that were previously "covered up" by strong analog locals -- Such as WLJC 7, Beattyville, KY, WBKI 19 Cambelsville ...

Anyway Lots of Fun DX here Past couple of weeks ... Just a FEW of the several highlights :

#1). My FIRST DTV Eskip Log (KBSD-DT 6 Ensign, KS, Yesterday) -- Decoded Several seconds of clean video on 2 occasions+PSIP of course ....

#2). A big Eskip opening On June 12 while the Analogs were "winking Off" or starting up their nightlight service -- Especially nice when WDTN went down in the middle of the opening at 12 noon ....

#3). My Eskip distance record so far, XHPN 3 at 1610 Miles

#4) I've seen regular Fox programming from a station via Es from SW on several occasions past analog shut off and wondered what it was, and Finally Id'd the station it was coming from Yesterday - XHIRO ("XIRO" Fox 2/cable channel 2" ID bug) -- Which is licensed to Mexico, but serves Rio Grande Valley, including in US -- It's English language, and runs Local commercials for San Antonio/Brownsville/etc. area ....

Follows is my list of new(I'ded that is, there have been plenty of Un ID'ed Canadian, Mexican, and Cuban stations analog in via Es) logs since analog shut off day ... Note : have also logged several of the channel change stations - Such as WDKY-DT, WHAS-DT --- But since I'd seen those before(but on another channel), the way I have my logging database designed (callsign being a Key field, that's also why I'm keeping the "DT" designation even though it isn't "officially" part of station callsign anymore), I don't log seperate entries for them, but I do add a record with the date of the channel change/etc ....

E-Skip
Friday, June 12, 2009
WESH 2 NBC Daytona Beach FL 756 Miles 12:01 PM
XHPN 3 Mex Piedras Negras, Coahuila, MX 1610 Miles 11:30 AM
WBRZ 2 ABC Baton Rouge LA 747 Miles 1:01 PM
KPRC 2 NBC Houston TX 934 Miles 1:30 PM
KWGN 2 CW Denver CO 1104 Miles 9:00 PM

Friday, June 19, 2009
WGBH 2 PBS Boston MA 712 Miles 5:30 PM - ("this old house" Nightlight)

Friday, June 26, 2009
XHRIO 2 FOX Matamoros TA 1208 Miles 12:45 PM
KBSD-DT 6 CBS Ensign KS 869 Miles 7:38 PM - FIRST DTV Es Log! woo hoo!
KOCT 6 ABC Carlsbad NM 1195 Miles 8:36 PM (analog Nightlight)

Tropo
Thursday, June 18, 2009
WLJC-DT 7 TBN Beattyville KY 142 Miles 11:40 AM

Saturday, June 27, 2009
WBKI-DT 19 CW Campbellsville KY 152 Miles 6:30 AM
WKZT-DT 43 KET/PBS Elizabethtown KY 152 Miles 7:00 AM
WBKA-CA 22 A1 Bucyrus OH 117 Miles 8:15 AM

----------------------------------

Considering I only had 2 NEW logs in 2008 (WBZ 4 Boston via E-skip was the only new DX station I logged, WOTH-LD was the other one), I'm certianly having a lot of fun with DX lately ....

ohiogal

06-28-09, 07:05 AM

well get this i am reciving most of the columbus ohio stations in the 80 - 90 percent range
and i live in preble county. how weird is that.

Paul210

06-28-09, 03:52 PM

I'll second that. Columbus was blaring in here this morning in Englewood off the side of the antenna.

voyager6

06-28-09, 06:12 PM

I'll second that. Columbus was blaring in here this morning in Englewood off the side of the antenna.

Happened to me about a week ago. My bedroom TV runs off an unamplified Radio Shack U-75 UHF antenna about 25' up on my tower fixed to point due south. One morning at about 5AM, it picked up every UHF Columbus station, and WSAZ-DT from Huntington WV off the side of the antenna.

I gave up looking for distant stations when the spectrum became overloaded. Now that the high power analogs are down, it looks to be promising again.

emery_r

06-28-09, 11:17 PM

RTV on 25.3 was off the air due to "technical difficulties" earlier this evening -- at least, that's what the on-screen message said. Then when RTV returned, the programming wasn't the same as indicated by either on-screen listings or by TitanTV. For example, there were two "Alfred Hitchcock Hour" programs between 10 PM and midnight, even though there were supposed to be two half-hours of Jack Benny followed by "O'Hara U.S. Treasury" at that time.

Can anyone from Block help out with an explanation? I believe RTV can "custom-tailor" programming for each local station, so it isn't too odd for RTV to be different in different markets -- were we getting the feed intended for another city tonight instead of Cincinnati?:confused:

wkrp

06-29-09, 10:04 AM

Emery_r:
about 7pm yesterday RTV had a "server melt-down" all there feeds were down.
They feed a east coast, west coast and about 30 custom feeds on C-band. They also have a back-up Ku band, east and west coast feed. With no servers to play back the programing everything was down. I think they scrambled to get any thing back up on the air, however the west coat feed was different programing. I got call from two of my freinds, both run automated stations, one in Mi, and one in Vegas asking me whats happening.

emery_r

06-29-09, 10:36 AM

ThoraX695

06-29-09, 05:49 PM

According to John Kiesewetter, WCPO's new digital antenna setup "should be completed by Friday." (http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=PluckPersona&U=5c49394b12564ab6832411d82ad3a991&plckController=PersonaBlog&plckScript=personaScript&plckElementId=personaDest&plckPersonaPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3a5c49394b12564ab6832411d82ad3a991Post%3a690 60a5e-8d87-4339-9f38-8ee8fac1bb2f&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com)

WHIO's tower work starts this Wednesday (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16740604#post16740604). I guess this means that they'll be done sometime next week.

The delay in both situations has to do with the weather. Fortunately it looks like the rest of this week is smooth sailing. :cool:

ThoraX695

07-01-09, 06:04 PM

ngarrang

07-02-09, 11:36 AM

Don't all of the recent tuners actually belong to D* regardless of purchase/rental ? I thought if you drop service they could demand the tuner back.

And when they demand it back, I will inform them that a tech can come and get it. I will leave the box outside so they can come anytime.

jim tressler

07-02-09, 01:17 PM

That might be the case with the new boxes.. with the old ones - they only owned the card, not the reciever.. my old htl-hd is still working today as an atsc tuner :)

ngarrang

07-02-09, 01:23 PM

I think I may need to swap out the DB2 with a DB4 on the roof to improve my reception. Though I am getting the majority of the stations I think I should be receiving, I am getting pixelation when I don't think I should. Time to borrow my neighbor's ladder again!

ncincy1

07-02-09, 06:19 PM

emery_r

07-02-09, 08:14 PM

Boy, what a difference.

I've been getting WHIO-DT 7 (channel 41) at 100% signal strength here in Sharonville with an attic-mount antenna. It's more powerful than some of the Cincinnati stations.

Note: My "rabbit ears" in the bedroom is now showing WHIO-DT 7 at 85% signal strength (it used to be 70%) before the work on the tower/transmitter was completed this week.

I guess when you "top-mount" the digital antenna and increase your power the difference is significant.

Bottom line here in northeastern Hamilton County:

=WHIO-DT 7 @ 100% signal strength
=WKRC-DT 12 @ 80% signal strength

I firmly believe that the stations who moved from UHF to VHF digital made a mistake....unless they had no choice in the matter. Thoughts?

J.

According to the info I got from WHIO's chief engineer, they weren't even going to start work to move their permanent antenna until yesterday, and he expected to complete everything and fire up to full power sometime next week. I see no difference in power at the western edge of Hamilton, and I'm gonna be mighty disappointed if I can't get them OTA after many weeks of anticipation!

Glad you're getting them now, but I hope all is not lost for ME!

Splicer010

07-02-09, 09:37 PM

What do you mean "been getting"??? For how long???

dtv insider

07-02-09, 09:52 PM

WHIO-TV tower did not start this week the tower crew did not shown up. WHIO-TV has had transmitter problems also. (bad transmitter tube).

emery_r

07-02-09, 10:12 PM

WHIO-TV tower did not start this week the tower crew did not shown up. WHIO-TV has had transmitter problems also. (bad transmitter tube).

Are you saying the crew didn't even show up as scheduled yesterday? Chief Engineer Chuck Eastman said they were supposed to begin work Wed. after an earlier delay kept them from working last week as scheduled.

I'm curious why there was a report from northern Cincinnati that WHIO had significantly increased power today...

ncincy1

07-02-09, 10:28 PM

I'm curious why there was a report from northern Cincinnati that WHIO had significantly increased power today...[/QUOTE]

Regardless, I have been receiving WHIO DT at 85% signal strength... for over 3 years....and for the past 2 days it's been steady at 100%

The significant improvement is not just on one digital receiver and/or television (I would chalk that up to a fluke) but all of the ones I have - all with different antennas.

All other stations (Dayton/Cincinnati) have the same signal strengths as before so I don't think my receivers are malfunctioning.

Are you SURE no work has been done to "top-mount" the digital antenna on WHIO-DT as of yet?
:confused:

emery_r

07-02-09, 10:47 PM

I'm curious why there was a report from northern Cincinnati that WHIO had significantly increased power today...

Regardless, I have been receiving WHIO DT at 85% signal strength... for over 3 years....and for the past 2 days it's been steady at 100%

The significant improvement is not just on one digital receiver and/or television (I would chalk that up to a fluke) but all of the ones I have - all with different antennas.

All other stations (Dayton/Cincinnati) have the same signal strengths as before so I don't think my receivers are malfunctioning.

Are you SURE no work has been done to "top-mount" the digital antenna on WHIO-DT as of yet?
:confused:[/QUOTE]

Nope, I personally don't know either way -- but someone who lives near their broadcast tower did post a comment on another thread that work hadn't yet begun, even though WHIO's chief engineer said it was to have started Wed.

Again, I certainly can't dispute you're seeing higher power -- it just surprised me they could complete all this work in one day! Plus, I'm stilll hoping for a signal boost that helps at my house too.

I e-mailed a question to Mr. Eastman tonight, and also tried their Twitter account -- no response from either one yet...

ThoraX695

07-02-09, 11:20 PM

I have been receiving WHIO DT at 85% signal strength... for over 3 years....and for the past 2 days it's been steady at 100%

Remember that we've only been running with only full-powered, post-analog transition digital transmissions for three weeks now. (I'm ignoring the nightlight stations for the moment.) We're only starting to fully understand how this new system behaves. It's complicated a bit at this point due to stations still making post-conversion changes (like WHIO and WCPO) and it being summer where we have tropo and E-skip atmospheric effects coming into play. It will probably take more than a year for us to really get a good grasp of these new effects we're witnessing as we work our way through the seasons and the full-power stations crystallize their final setups.

dtv insider

07-03-09, 09:12 AM

Are you saying the crew didn't even show up as scheduled yesterday? Chief Engineer Chuck Eastman said they were supposed to begin work Wed. after an earlier delay kept them from working last week as scheduled.

I'm curious why there was a report from northern Cincinnati that WHIO had significantly increased power today...

I drive by the tower Monday -Friday and no work has been done. The old antenna is still on the top of tower, and no rigger equipment on the site. I did not think a crew would show up on Wednesday and the holiday weekend two days away.

dtv insider

07-03-09, 09:25 AM

Is the reports of increased power for WHIO-TV truly power increase or quality of signal increase. A lot of set-top boxes and tv display quality of signal not power levels. Are you using a r-f strength power meter or the display of the set-top ?

Was WHIO-TV to replace the old Harris Flex coder this year?

emery_r

07-03-09, 10:01 AM

I drive by the tower Monday -Friday and no work has been done. The old antenna is still on the top of tower, and no rigger equipment on the site. I did not think a crew would show up on Wednesday and the holiday weekend two days away.

Just received a Twitter response to a question I'd sent to WHIO -- and here's the straight scoop, copied from Twitter:

"RE: WHIO DTV Transmitter: Work delayed on our permanent install due to weather elsewhere holding up crews. Work begins here Mon!"

So I guess improved reception in northern Cincinnati was just a fortunate fluke. And I'm glad, because I want improved reception too -- maybe next week!!!

Trip in VA

07-03-09, 10:06 AM

Could they have done some tweaking on the transmitter itself to bring up the SNR?

- Trip

robmadden1

07-03-09, 12:47 PM

I want to get WHIO here in Delhi on my indoor antenna but i think it won't happen even when they increase power after putiing up the new antenna.

emery_r

07-03-09, 01:05 PM

I want to get WHIO here in Delhi on my indoor antenna but i think it won't happen even when they increase power after putiing up the new antenna.

I can see a signal dancing around when trying to pull in RF 41, and on rare occasions have actually been able to get it to lock in well enough to display WHIO here on the west side of Hamilton -- do you have any signal at all, even on the low end of the scale?

If so, don't give up hope -- you might get them after all, sometime next week.

voyager6

07-03-09, 07:04 PM

emery_r

07-03-09, 07:52 PM

The attached image shows the radiation pattern of the old antenna for WHIO. According to the FCC construction permit, the digital antenna will be raised from 290m to 348m, about 190 feet, which is significant. Assuming the new antenna will be circular in its radiation pattern, expect a 4 fold effective power increase to the south west when the new antenna is up.

Oh, man -- my mouth is watering now. :p I am most definitely southwest of their tower. Can't wait for the "grand opening" of the new and improved WHIO signal! ncincy1, who reported WHIO was coming in better than WKRC in northern Cincinnati, will probably soon be joined by thousands of others around here. Now won't THAT be weird?

EDIT: Just received a brief e-mail reply from WHIO's Chief Engineer Chuck Eastman -- he confirmed tower work to move the digital antenna will begin Monday, and also that they are now at "full power". I assume this increase to "full power" explains ncincy1's report of a stronger signal in northern Cincinnati. The tower move needs to boost the signal for me, I guess!

Nitewatchman

07-04-09, 01:54 AM

Could they have done some tweaking on the transmitter itself to bring up the SNR?

- Trip

WHIO Signal seems to perhaps be a bit stronger here over the past several+ days or so, perhaps they had a dying tube they replaced per dtvinsders message ... Probably not much stronger/probably only a few dB or so, but I haven't checked it other than to notice digital hash from them which I haven't seen for a while on WRCX-LP 40, probably mostly thanks to poor receiver selectivity as I assume their emission mask hasn't changed ....

Other than for the laundry room TV on UHF loop+Rabbit ears, Not really looking forward to about a 14dB increase in power from them here when they get the Non-DA antenna up ... Suspect it's likely WRCX will become unwatchable, also, swamping amps/overloading tuners will be a concern...

I'm right in their biggest null(which btw is towards what was co-channel WDRB 41 analog Louisville, KY) ---- The .19 relative field value(=36.1KW ERP squirted my way) shown in their current antenna's polar plot on FCC site, vs. the future Non-DA at 1000KW ERP ... It will probably effectively end up being more than 14db increase as received here, given the increase in TX antenna height and less attenuation by terrain obstructions involved ....

fjames

07-04-09, 03:23 AM

I've been going over all the FCC stuff, maps and all that, tonight and it looks like I might even get WHIO without having to do anything. Right now (3AM here) it's coming in at 80+% lol. Course, it usually comes in okay late at night, but not this well. I'm actually getting goose bumps thinking about it.

Funny, checking the map for the old antenna, it very nicely cuts out Hamilton. No WHIO for You! :D The new setup should be great for Hamilton and a lot of other people. The basic stats, 100 more feet of height, horizontal polarization, and all that power make KRC look just pathetic. I noticed that KRC's old dtv (800 kW 31) used horizontal polarization, as God intended. I can't help but wonder what their rationale is for using all technical means available to limit their viewership as much as possible. If WHIO comes through, I'm sure I won't care:p

voyager6

07-04-09, 11:34 AM

I noticed that KRC's old dtv (800 kW 31) used horizontal polarization, as God intended. I can't help but wonder what their rationale is for using all technical means available to limit their viewership as much as possible. If WHIO comes through, I'm sure I won't care:p

As I said a couple of days ago, WKRC has improved slightly for me in Dayton (Just north of I-70) to the point they are slightly stronger than WCPO. I expect they will come to their senses when the next ratings sweeps occurs and their news ratings drops. With cable and satellite, it may not be much, but it has to show up.

I did a Google news search on DTV and Ohio and found Toledo is having problems with two stations going from UHF to their old analog VHF frequencies. The interesting thing is that their local county government is getting involved as they feel the loss of viewers affects the effectiveness of the emergency activation system and their ability to get urgent word out. The Lenawee county government asked the FCC to allow the stations to increase power (while the stations have not yet formally applied for a STA at the time of the article). http://www.lenconnect.com/news/x631609277/County-concerned-about-DTV-problems

emery_r

07-04-09, 12:17 PM

As I said a couple of days ago, WKRC has improved slightly for me in Dayton (Just north of I-70) to the point they are slightly stronger than WCPO. I expect they will come to their senses when the next ratings sweeps occurs and their news ratings drops. With cable and satellite, it may not be much, but it has to show up.

I did a Google news search on DTV and Ohio and found Toledo is having problems with two stations going from UHF to their old analog VHF frequencies. The interesting thing is that their local county government is getting involved as they feel the loss of viewers affects the effectiveness of the emergency activation system and their ability to get urgent word out. The Lenawee county government asked the FCC to allow the stations to increase power (while the stations have not yet formally applied for a STA at the time of the article). http://www.lenconnect.com/news/x631609277/County-concerned-about-DTV-problems

Even more than Toledo, Cleveland seems to be the Ohio focus for problems and anger surrounding VHF frequencies for 2 major stations -- WJW-8 and WOIO-19. The bigger problem looks like WOIO, on RF 10 -- not coincidentally, the same RF 10 used by a powerful Canadian station (London/Ontario's CFPL) which will remain analog for another two years or so.

Due to potential interference issues with CFPL, WOIO must limit its power and coverage area on RF 10. As a direct result, traditional viewers are having extreme difficulties receiving a signal. This is a true mess which speaks to lack of foresight and planning, both at Raycom (which owns WOIO) and at the FCC.

And sorry, I can't resist poking John Matarese and WCPO again for claiming VHF is the "standard" for digital broadcasting in the U.S., right there on the WCPO website. (Oh well -- gotta get a life, and get past that particular goof, huh?)

voyager6

07-04-09, 02:22 PM

sorry, I can't resist poking John Matarese and WCPO again for claiming VHF is the "standard" for digital broadcasting in the U.S., right there on the WCPO website. (Oh well -- gotta get a life, and get past that particular goof, huh?)

Well, I am sure that is the case in the bean counter's minds since VHF is so much lower in power, it must save them huge dollars on electricity to run the transmitter!

ThoraX695

07-04-09, 07:37 PM

Not really looking forward to about a 14dB increase in power from them here when they get the Non-DA antenna up ... Suspect it's likely WRCX will become unwatchable, also, swamping amps/overloading tuners will be a concern...

Obviously you'll have to knock down all of the strong local signals for DX'ing, but will it be worse than when all of the full-power analogs were still on the air?

Nitewatchman

07-05-09, 02:39 PM

Obviously you'll have to knock down all of the strong local signals for DX'ing, but will it be worse than when all of the full-power analogs were still on the air?

No, it's much better with the analogs gone. Also, there is only so much "knocking down" one can do before the insertion loss of the traps in line before the amps exceeds the benefit(lowering input signals, which can not only prevent IMD/overloading in amp or receiver front end, and/or desense in receiver front-end, but also increase output level of the amp) from having them there ....

And, It's not Dx'ing so much that's the issue, I take whatever I can get there.

Although I am closer to Dayton, Issues here specific to the Dayton stations Involving terrain and lots of trees are such that multipath and fading (and I suspect Ground reflections may have something to do with it as well) have proven to be a particular problem issue for DTV receivers to deal with in the upper 1/2 of UHF TV band(especially when wind blows the tree limbs around) --- And Having more signal from the stations doesn't necessarily mean better in that regard, in fact it can make things worse ....

Also, another potential issue involves potentially having to make more changes vs. the changes I have already made(and am very happy with as is) after the blow torch analogs went off air regarding how I distrubute feeds from from antennas to multiple devices(about 12 different receivers) in 4 different rooms.

As for knocking things down --- I'm not *-planning(Including for DX'ing) on knocking down anything (except trapping out FM broadcast for the TV/DTV receivers) after WLWT gets done nightlighting.

Right now, I am knocking down WLWT audio carrier by 12dB for one antenna setup(XG91 UHF at 37 ft/PR5030 VHF at 32 feet - on rotor - I mainly use this antenna setup for Cincinnati and for Dx'ing) - If I don't, IMD apparently created in a overloaded tuner(only haupppauge HVR1600 PC tuner card, this doesn't seem to be an issue for other receivers) lowers SNR usable by receiver for WOTH-LD by several dB, also, trapping out their audio carrier makes for better "dxing" on 6 with antenna aimed south or nearly so .... On another antenna setup(for reasons that have nothing to do with DX), I'm currently knocking down WLWT with a homemade 1/4 wave Coax stub filter cut for about the middle of channel 5(about a 20dB notch), otherwise a distrubtion amp I use for that setup (UHF yagi/corner reflector at about 25 feet Aimed at Dayton, combined with CM3010 "stealhtenna" for VHF at 20 feet aimed at Cincy for WCPO/WKRC, and also used for FM reception) suffers serious "overload issues"/impairs reception of some of the Dayton DTV stations ......

Also, as for trapping out stuff, I use a Winegard CA-8800 FM/TV band seperator on one VHF antenna setup(Winegard PR-5030), so I can get good FM signals from it to FM receivers via the "FM out" from it. On the "TV out" port from CA-8800 before amplification and before combining with UHF(XG91) ---- Unfortunetly Standard FM traps (including those in preamps) do not roll off on the bottom end close enough to 88MHZ (Channel 6 is 82~88MHZ, channel 6 NTSC analog audio carrier is 87.7MHZ) --- Which is a real problem(not only for channel 6 reception, but potentially for IMD/overloading amps and tuners) given several blow torch FM signals around here in 88~90MHZ range, especially 88.1 Dayton ..... So, I also have a Winegard TRT-LO filter (12db Notch over 2 MHZ banwidth)in line before amp tuned to knock down those a bit while still not getting into ch 6 too much ....

* - Hopefully that will work out, and has so far(such as with WBDT's maximization) but increased signals from Dayton stations maximizing their signals further are the biggest concern ...

Overall, while it may be the case having the Dayton full-service stations more equal in strength might generally make things easier --- Nevertheless, the way it was during the transition(Being in Nulls for WBDT, WHIO and to some extent WRGT's DA's) worked out very well here, as for example I was able to set things up so I had at least 15dB overhead for WBDT's signal (they threw 1.5 KW ERP my way), and still didn't have "too much" from the rest ...

As I said a couple of days ago, WKRC has improved slightly for me in Dayton (Just north of I-70) to the point they are slightly stronger than WCPO.

WKRC on 12 has consistantly been about 3dB stronger than WCPO here. With "rabbit ears"(adjusted to be 1/2 wavelength dipole on Ch 10) on the Laundry room TV in about the worst spot in the house for an antenna, I can decode WKRC Solidly (but just barely), but not WCPO. It will be interesting to see if that changes when WCPO switches to the new antenna.

Also, Did it get better when WKEF got done nightlighting ? One has to be careful regarding evaluation of what might be going on, especially when there are strong Dayton TV and FM signals in same direction as Cincinnati and when you are using additional amplification ....

I do not mean to suggest it's necessarily the case in your specific circumstance, but, I do suspect a lot of the problems that are occuring for folks with VHF reception are due to issues on the receive end (sometimes perhaps issues specific TO the receiver itself) not the transmit end - at least not on the DTV station transmitting end, 2nd harmonics from nearby FM transmitters are another matter ---- As one example --- With analog, it was fairly easy to see issues such as say, interference(or IMD) from FM carriers via a herrigbone pattern on screen, with DTV, you just about need a spectrum analyzer to see what's really going on ....

And as another example of a VHF oddity I've experienced here --- I have one FM receiver (even if it is NOT hooked up to any antenna) which actually Creates Interference on upper VHF channels which is picked up by my Outdoor antennas nearly 17 feet above and 30 feet away from the receiver --- If I for example, tune it to 92.5 MHZ (again, without even an antenna being hooked up to the FM receiver), It creates Interference on VHF 12 (I could see herringbone pattern from it when WKRC was analog on 12) ..... Tune to 91.3~91.7, same thing on channel 11 and so on .....

Nitewatchman

07-05-09, 03:31 PM

Well, I am sure that is the case in the bean counter's minds since VHF is so much lower in power, it must save them huge dollars on electricity to run the transmitter!

I wonder how much coal is burned to fire high power UHF transmitters ?

Except for a few fringe or terrain challenged viewers for which a bit more power may help, and for more fun for Dx'ing --- and for those using inefficient "indoor" antennas(often more attenuation from having the antenna indoors than the antenna has gain) which also do a great job of picking up interference on VHF from nearby household appliances/etc ---- I fail to see why we need DTV stations running much more than about 150KW ERP or so on UHF (and WCVN's 54KW ERP from a short stick, or WOTH-LD's 15KW ERP certianly do great up here from the fringe of those stations service areas via 2EDGE diffraction per TVfool prediction - I have 20+dB headroom for both) or 50KW ERP on VHF, although the 15~30KW ERP'ish power levels most VHF-HI DTV stations are running seem to be about right/seem to do quite well also ....

Your reception of WKRC and WCPO digitals from the edge of their predicted service area would seem to be one confirmation of that .....

Oh, from an earlier post - (sorry I missed commenting on this earlier, but I think it relates to the above ) :

Considering the FCC map really doesn't expect people within the coverage area to have a 35' foot tower, 120" VHF-only antenna and VHF-only amplifer at 1035' ASL and I just barely get them, tells me there might be room for improvement in WKRC since it is not my setup.

Except for the amp, actually, while that setup(Winegard PR5030 which is what I think you said you use - it's one of the antennas I use for VHF as well) exceeds FCC planning factors for DTV reception ... It doesn't exceed it by much, and is along the lines of what one would expect to need to use for reception from the fringes, and in some cases closer to station ... Also, keep in mind most of the size of the PR5030 is for its lo-VHF elements .....

For Hi-VHF, FCC Planning factors for DTV reception (which are used for those service area maps) specify a receive antenna mounted (outdoors) 30 feet above ground, Receive antenna with 6dBd Gain, and 12dB F/B ratio .... System NF of 10dB on VHF, and 2dB loss in transmission line(coax) on Hi-VHF is assumed - I don't think loss in balun is taken into account ...

Winegard's "Enginnering specifications" sheet for PR5030 (which should be taken with a grain of salt) says it should have between 7.5~9.5dBd gain on VHF-HI, with a F/B ratio ranging between 13dB(ch 7) and 18dB (ch 9) ...

Unfortunetly, that sheet does not show a polar plot or offer any specifics about it's FM performance, but one thing I don't like about it is that(unless there is some overloading of tuner going on which is possible, although I don't amplify FM in any way before receiver) I've noticed here it seems around mid-Broadcast FM band it seems to have more gain off the BACK side of the antenna than the front (not the case for lo or hi-band FM) .... IF you use yours for FM, have you noticed this? For example, here, stations like WBUL 98.1 Lexington, KY come in stronger with the antenna aimed North, and the Dayton LPFMs(if the one on 98.1 is still there) on 98.1 and 99.5 come in off the back side of antenna, but not so well off not the front side .. I notice the same thing for 95.3/95.7 Dayton/Xenia ...

voyager6

07-05-09, 07:14 PM

I wonder how much coal is burned to fire high power UHF transmitters ?

I don't think it is as much as we might think with decent antenna gain, the transmitter might not need more than 20KW of actual power. For the UHFs, it is 1MW max ERP for DTV, right? But I am sure the total power is more than what it takes to run VHF.

Except for a few fringe or terrain challenged viewers for which a bit more power may help, and for more fun for Dx'ing --- and for those using inefficient "indoor" antennas(often more attenuation from having the antenna indoors than the antenna has gain) which also do a great job of picking up interference on VHF from nearby household appliances/etc ---- I fail to see why we need DTV stations running much more than about 150KW ERP or so on UHF (and WCVN's 54KW ERP from a short stick, or WOTH-LD's 15KW ERP certianly do great up here from the fringe of those stations service areas via 2EDGE diffraction per TVfool prediction - I have 20+dB headroom for both) or 50KW ERP on VHF, although the 15~30KW ERP'ish power levels most VHF-HI DTV stations are running seem to be about right/seem to do quite well also ....

Your reception of WKRC and WCPO digitals from the edge of their predicted service area would seem to be one confirmation of that .....

I agree. But I sure got WKRC a lot better when they were on CH31. Now, WSYX in Columbus is licensed for 59KW and they come in like a blow torch here, far better than any of the Columbus UHF stations, which can be tempermental during rainy weather during the day. I know that it doesn't matter much, but I am at the top of a hill, with the antennas at 1035 feet above sea level.

Unfortunetly, that sheet does not show a polar plot or offer any specifics about it's FM performance, but one thing I don't like about it is that(unless there is some overloading of tuner going on which is possible, although I don't amplify FM in any way before receiver) I've noticed here it seems around mid-Broadcast FM band it seems to have more gain off the BACK side of the antenna than the front (not the case for lo or hi-band FM) .... IF you use yours for FM, have you noticed this? For example, here, stations like WBUL 98.1 Lexington, KY come in stronger with the antenna aimed North, and the Dayton LPFMs(if the one on 98.1 is still there) on 98.1 and 99.5 come in off the back side of antenna, but not so well off not the front side .. I notice the same thing for 95.3/95.7 Dayton/Xenia ...

My VHF amp has an FM trap that I activated, so I don't use it for FM. I don't remember the part number (edit: looked it up, CM 0040DSB Spartan 3), but I have an older Channel Master 16db gain VHF only amp. I have a CM7776 VHF amp ready to replace it, but I was stupid in the tower design and had the amps mounted next to the antennas (instead of at the tower base, where I can get to it) and it would take a 30' cherry picker to get up there to change. I need to replace the rotor as it won't turn more than 270 degrees, so I am going to have to get my TV guy out here soon to do the repair one day.

With the PR5030 and the amp, I never had IMD due to VHF at all. There aren't any FM stations nearby either. I still have that VIP-307 monster mounted at the ground, but weather has beat it up badly. I never had the nerve to mount it on the tower due to wind overload. I've seen 70-80 Mph winds three times here in six years and I am surprised the tower is still standing.

My UHF setup has been problemmatic since the day the tower went up. I have a CM 4228 with CM7775 26 db UHF only amp and it was way too much gain. When the analogs were up, I couldn't point the antenna much more than 170 degrees south or the Dayton UHF analogs would drive the amp wild. I ran the UHF and VHF feeds down to a weatherproof junction box that has the grounding blocks, power units, and are joined together via a CM0549 UHF/VHF joiner and the combined feed goes into the house to my TV and DVR. I have a Radio Shack 20db variable attenuator to prevent overload of the tuners.

I can now point directly at the Dayton towers with no apparent ill effect on the low power analogs (20,32, 38 and 40). However, the reception of some of the Cincinnati UHFs is still best when the antennas are pointed a little bit east. The Dayton stations are so strong, I get them no matter what direction the antennas are pointed (which has been true only since June 12th).

I have been seeing WOTH regularly at night, as well as all three Lima stations, which I never saw before June 12th. The WHIO antenna change shouldn't affect me since they were already throwing a majority of the 1Mwatts my way. So for now, I am happy with my UHF setup.

emery_r

07-05-09, 07:42 PM

I agree. But I sure got WKRC a lot better when they were on CH31. Now, WSYX in Columbus is licensed for 59KW and they come in like a blow torch here, far better than any of the Columbus UHF stations, which can be tempermental during rainy weather during the day. I know that it doesn't matter much, but I am at the top of a hill, with the antennas at 1035 feet above sea level.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but according to RabbitEars.info, WSYX-6 applied to the FCC before June 21 to abandon VHF 13 in favor of UHF 48. It was pretty simple to find corresponding FCC info too (see the very end of this item):

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=WSYX

Can someone (calling Trip at RabbitEars!), verify that this means WSYX doesn't want to be on VHF, and would rather go to UHF? Which begs the question -- why would they do this unless they too were unhappy with VHF coverage? Wasn't able to find anything else relevant to this request via a Google search, in the Col. Dispatch, or on the WSYX website. Not much activity on the AVS Columbus HDTV thread, so no explanation to be found there either!

Trip in VA

07-05-09, 07:49 PM

Sinclair wants off of VHF on all its stations because Mobile DTV works better on UHF (smaller antennas).

WSYX is a Sinclair station.

- Trip

emery_r

07-05-09, 07:53 PM

Sinclair wants off of VHF on all its stations because Mobile DTV works better on UHF (smaller antennas).

WSYX is a Sinclair station.

- Trip

Kind of amazing -- you're out there, reading and replying at almost all hours!

Thanks for the info...

Trip in VA

07-05-09, 07:59 PM

Kind of amazing -- you're out there, reading and replying at almost all hours!

Thanks for the info...

I do sleep once in a while... :D

- Trip

513Tech

07-05-09, 10:56 PM

Having trouble getting 25.1-25.4 funny thing I can pick up Dayton CW 26.1-26.2 in the evenings. WDTN comes in crystal clear. I want my TV 25!

emery_r

07-06-09, 07:23 AM

Having trouble getting 25.1-25.4 funny thing I can pick up Dayton CW 26.1-26.2 in the evenings. WDTN comes in crystal clear. I want my TV 25!

When did your trouble begin? I've seen no change in signal strength on the west side of Hamilton ever since coming back on the air after they were totally off several weeks ago.

terryfoster

07-06-09, 07:46 AM

And when they demand it back, I will inform them that a tech can come and get it. I will leave the box outside so they can come anytime.

I'm fairly sure they'll send you pre-paid return boxes for the equipment they want returned. Otherwise they'll charge you if they don't receive their equipment.

Splicer010

07-06-09, 08:19 AM

No problem receiving 25-1 to 25-4 at all here either...

Nitewatchman

07-06-09, 08:37 PM

I don't think it is as much as we might think with decent antenna gain, the transmitter might not need more than 20KW of actual power.

For high power UHF stations, a lot depends on the Antenna Gain ... non-directional antennas usually don't have much gain, therefore TPO would be much higher ....

I agree. But I sure got WKRC a lot better when they were on CH31.

And I'm sure a lot of folks on the fringes(and many folks using indoor antennas) have had similar experiences with the 250KW~1000KW ERP UHF DTV stations, for several reasons -- One of them being UHF receive antennas typically have more gain ... Another being those UHF power levels are far beyond what was originally planned/envisioned for UHF DTV .... As I recall, It changed/they ended up allowing much higher power levels, partly because they wanted to try to get as close as possible to replicating analog VHF stations coverage area, particularly the lo-VHF stations(hence why WDTN has had a 1000KW ERP DTV allocation all along) ... But it can't really compensate/"get around" the curavature of the Earth on the shorter UHF wavelengths, regardless of how much power stations run ...

513Tech

07-06-09, 08:37 PM

Update-Moved my antennae around

Getting 25.1-25.4 good. To my surprise CW 26 in Dayton comes in clear.

Thanks for help guys.

ThoraX695

07-06-09, 10:38 PM

Also, as for trapping out stuff, I use a Winegard CA-8800 FM/TV band seperator on one VHF antenna setup(Winegard PR-5030), so I can get good FM signals from it to FM receivers via the "FM out" from it. On the "TV out" port from CA-8800 before amplification and before combining with UHF(XG91)

I was thinking about getting an FM trap or separator. According to FM Fool, I have one station at -17.8 dBm and six stations ranging from around -21 dBm through -22 dBm. How much does the Winegard CA-8800 lower the FM band going through the VHF/UHF line? (I can hook up the split-off FM signal to a receiver.)

I'll take other suggestions from the peanut gallery as well. :)

Bubster

07-07-09, 01:31 AM

Off topic here unless you are a netflix streamer like me... it appears my service has been upgraded to 10mbit.

http://sh.stonks.com/junk/rr.JPG

Splicer010

07-07-09, 07:07 AM

If I do the test I get 15915 down & 489 up...However...if I test a second time I get 6174 down and 486 up...Why such a wild swing???

jim tressler

07-07-09, 07:54 AM

lots of things.. network traffic, routing, or cache just to name a few

Bubster

07-07-09, 03:25 PM

Oddly, I used to get the same thing Splicer does, but not lately. Very consistent results from that site and from here. (http://www.speedtest.net/) As expected, the results from the speedtest.net site are a touch lower than Roadrunner's results but the server is also farther away and doesn't have a vested interest in your results. ;)

Nitewatchman

07-07-09, 09:10 PM

I was thinking about getting an FM trap or separator. According to FM Fool, I have one station at -17.8 dBm and six stations ranging from around -21 dBm through -22 dBm. How much does the Winegard CA-8800 lower the FM band going through the VHF/UHF line? (I can hook up the split-off FM signal to a receiver.)

I'll take other suggestions from the peanut gallery as well. :)

I'm not sure how much FM band is attenuated via CA-8800's TV band(VHF/UHF) port, I don't recall seeing any specs on that -- I have checked it to some extent --- While It does lower the FM signals(not at the low end of FM band however) via the TV port to some extent - * , It's really not a FM trap --- It's hard to tell as so many of the FM signals here are quite strong anyway(and FM tuners are generally pretty sensitive), but it seems there is quite a bit of FM signals going through the "TV" port as well ....

* - Probably enough for your needs but it's really hard to say - If not, If they still have/them stock them, Radio Shack used to have a fairly inexpensive FM trap you could put in line after the "TV"(VHF/UHF port) on the CA-8800 (before receivers or amps/etc), that way you wouldn't be trapping FM before your FM receiver hooked up via the "FM" port ....

I mainly use it instead of a 2 way splitter because of the lower insertion loss involved .... You can also use it as a combiner, to combine a VHF/UHF (or one or the other VHF or UHF) TV antenna with a seperate FM antenna .....

Oh -- By the way ... I suspect what I'm doing to knock down FM and (currently) WLWT audio carrier(as I explained earlier) helped me pick up the following new Dx log from the South via E-Skip this evening at 7:46pm EDT (I don't know why the clock info in screehshot says 6:46pm EDT, perhaps info in their STT is off, as it was indeed 7:46PM EDT) :

WABW-DT 6 - (PBS) Pelham, GA - 584 Miles -- Pretty short for Eskip on 6~!!!! --

Screenshot attached ....

VHF antenna setup used was PR5030 at 32 feet, then after about 35Feet Coax, in the attic the feed goes to CA-8800, then from its TV port, to 2 Winegard TRT-LO's, one(after 7/12 this one comes out!) tuned to knock down WLWT audio carrier, the other tuned to about 88.7 MHZ to knock down the lo-FM signals, then on to a just a lowly $20 CM3042 (13dB gain, 3.5dB NF) amp -- Then on to CM0549 VHF/UHF combiner, then a 2 way splitter and about 20 Feet of coax before Zenith DTT900 used for attached screenshot ..... Not currently using a "standard" FM trap that traps out the whole band - It doesn't seem necessary at this point --- although I might change my mind on that .....

blbrodbeck

07-07-09, 09:33 PM

Update on Ch. 9 antenna here:

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090707/ENT/307070101/1055/NEWS/Ch.+9+to+boost+digital+signal

Keise says we'll have to rescan. I don't think that's right.

emery_r

07-07-09, 10:14 PM

Update on Ch. 9 antenna here:

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090707/ENT/307070101/1055/NEWS/Ch.+9+to+boost+digital+signal

Keise says we'll have to rescan. I don't think that's right.

...assuming he's talking only about people who've never received WCPO on RF10. If people have received it in the past, the channel ought to already be programmed into their digital tuner, but if not, then they probably will need to do a re-scan.

EDIT: I just found out there are two slightly different reports on the Enquirer website -- Kiese's blog pretty clearly indicates he's talking about re-scanning by those who've never been able to get WCPO's digital signal, while a separate news article does seem to recommend that everyone needs to re-scan (which probably is not true).

emery_r

07-08-09, 12:19 PM

jimp2244

07-08-09, 03:22 PM

Just saw a distant ANALOG television signal on Channel 3 -- a Spanish language broadcast called "Mediodia", which translates literally into "Noon" in English. It looks like a newscast, or magazine type show. Anyone have any idea where this signal comes from? Since it appeared on my TV at noon Eastern time, I assume it's being broadcast from somewhere in the Eastern time zone.

Anyone else seeing this signal? Any idea where it's from? The picture faded in and out a lot, and only occasionally popped into full color. I can't get a fix on anything that identifies the city of origin.

Thanks!Might be a show on Univision, but I don't see any Univision affiliates on channel 3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Univision_affiliates). Additionally, any full power analog station would be off, or nightlighting at this point. So that leaves either a lower power station with Spanish content, or a station in Mexico (or possibly bordering Mexico - can't remember if FCC allowed those to stay on analog or not). I've seen what seemed to be Mexican stations via E-skip before on channel 3 but they can be very difficult to identify.

rmousir

07-08-09, 06:44 PM

Hi All,

I have just found this forum. WOW! it is awesome. I will admit I didn't read all the pages on this thread there are just to many.

I have a big antenna that was in my attic but 9.1 dropped over the weekend. So last night I moved the antenna to the roof of the house in hopes of getting it back. I used the online street level map so I could position my antenna correctly and I have no problems picking up the following channels:

5, 5.1, 5.2, 7.1, 7.2, 12.1, 12.2, 14.1, 14.2, 14.3, 14.4, 14.5, 16.1, 16.2, 16.3, 16.4, 16.5, 19.1, 19.2, 48.1, 48.2

I really want 9.1 back. I am amazed that I get channels

this is my antenna:
AntennasDirect DB4 Off-Air HDTV Antenna
hdtvantennalabs.com

I used this page to get my direction (zip code 45102):
antennaweb.org
My antenna is directed right according to this map. I turned the antenna to face more south and I lost channels. So then I moved it to point more north and I added 2.1 and 2.2 but 12.1 and 12.2 got choppy.

So am I screwed? Why don't I get 9.1? Is anyone else having this problem? Any help is appreciated. Thanks very much in advanced.

rmousir

emery_r

07-08-09, 07:14 PM

emery_r

07-08-09, 07:34 PM

...Cuba! I posted a question about what I'd seen today on a similar message board devoted to DXing, the reception of distant TV and FM signals. A response quickly appeared that identified the likely station as "Ch 3's Cubavision...likely located in Santa Clara in central Cuba." The guy who identified it said they have a program called ""Mediodia en TV", so that's about as close to an iron-clad match as I could hope for!

What a skip -- an analog TV signal from Cuba, right here in southwest Ohio. :)

rmousir

07-08-09, 08:20 PM

thanks very much Rich. I will keep a eye out for 9.1 and keep you posted.

Nitewatchman

07-08-09, 09:33 PM

What a skip -- an analog TV signal from Cuba, right here in southwest Ohio. :)

It's pretty common here via Sporadic E propagation ("E-skip" or Es) ... Cuban, Canadian(Especially Nova Scotia) or Mexican stations have been showing up via Es the past month or so on an almost daily basis, sometimes all day or evening long .... Along of course with the US Lo-VHF analog nightlight stations(some of which aren't easy to get an ID on, others which are -- such as WPBT 2 Miami, KPRC 2 Houston, KDFW 4 Dallas/etc), and of course the US DTV stations 500~1500 Miles distant on Low VHF (most typically receptions via Es are in the 700~1300 mile range, but it can be farther or shorter - XHPN 3 at 1660 miles from me is the farthest eS I have logged here, KYW 3 Philadelphia(logged just yesterday when they were nightlighting) at 487 Miles has been the shortest .....

Identifying where they are coming from isn't difficult (such as from the programming - I probably saw the same station you did around noon today -- There was a "revolutionary" Cartoon just before noon this afternoon which made the source of the signal obvious -- lots of waving of Cuban flag/etc ), but identifiying individual transmitters, from Canada and Cuba especially is often very difficult, as they don't ID like US stations do ..... It is sometimes possible however to ID stations from the local programming (including local commercial spots), if for example, for canada, browsing through CRTC database indicates only one station in that local area could possibly be on the received RF channel ... Have to be careful there to look for the translators as well .....

Mexican stations often do put a ID logo up once per hour or every 30 minutes however .... such as for example --- "XHMEN", -- Which is XHMEN 4, Merida, Yucatan, A common E-skip reception here .... You'll often see Cartoons on that one in the middle of day (same thing with XHY 2), look for the ID (has sort of a "close captioned look" in upper right area of frame ---- Another one that has become common the past few weeks has been XHRIO 2, Matamoros -- which as I noted in earlier post in interesting as it serves portions of southernmost Texas as well, and is A FOX affiliate, usually with English language programming (They have a "Fox" XIRO 2/Cable channel 2 bug) is another one that has become common with WDTN analog gone, as has XHPN 3 with WAVE 3 gone .... A few Days ago, I caught an ID I thought said "XHCOO" from a mexican station on 3, but I could find no info anywhere on that callsign -- I didn't log it because of that (and I didn't get a screenshot), but I have a feeling I misread the ID and that it probably was XHCOQ 3, Cozumel ....

emery_r

07-08-09, 09:41 PM

It's pretty common here via Sporadic E propagation ("E-skip" or Es) ... Cuban, Canadian(Especially Nova Scotia) or Mexican stations have been showing up the past month or so on an almost daily basis, sometimes all day/night long ....

Would I be correct in assuming you use more elaborate equipment -- a better roof- or tower-mounted antenna, receivers, amplifiers, etc. -- to get so many distant skips so often?

I feel kind of lucky to pull in a Cuban signal with nothing more than my trusty Terk rabbit ears and an old analog TV!

Nitewatchman

07-08-09, 10:15 PM

Would I be correct in assuming you use more elaborate equipment -- a better roof- or tower-mounted antenna, receivers, amplifiers, etc. -- to get so many distant skips so often?

I feel kind of lucky to pull in a Cuban signal with nothing more than my trusty Terk rabbit ears and an old analog TV!

Certianly one sees more of it with outdoor/directional antenna(if you aim it the "right way"), and sometimes, signals propagated via Es can be weak ....

However -- Signals via Es are often(but not allways) quite strong, strong enough to see plenty via Rabbit ears, especially if you can get them outdoors .... Probably the biggest issue with using rabbit Ears for signals via E-skip instead of using an antenna with more directivity is that often (but not allways - Not much besides Cuba and WPBT Miami in here at noon today, for example), there will be a jumble of signals, coming from many different stations, sometimes from many different directions, therefore it helps to use a directional antenna so to "reject" some of the signals coming in from different directions ....

In other words, keep looking on Lo-VHF channels (especially in June and July - Especially in the afternoon or early evening hours), even with just "rabbit ears" you'll see plenty more distant signals ....

Unlike tropo (ducting or scatter), which propagates signals in the lower levels of atmosphere(less than 6 Miles high or so) ..... The signals via Es are reflecting off of ionized regions(You may see these reffered to as "Es Clouds") of the E layer of ionosphere, some 70 Miles high ..... When the Es Clouds are between you and the station, that's when you see those distant stations, but if the Es clouds are too Close to you, it all just goes "above your head" so to speak .... Generally speaking --- The more highly ioniozed the "Es Clouds" are, typically, the more intense the activity (the stronger the signals) and the higher the MUF (Maximum Usable Frequency) will be, also the more likely it is shorter receptions can occur --- MUF will be at channel 2 (54~60 MHZ) more often than at channel 6(82~88MHZ), or into FM band or higher, so it's often a good idea to monitor say, Channel 2 or 3 , and when you see distant signals there, then periodically check to see if you also see anything on higher frequencies ... MUF making it up to hi-VHF (channel 7 is at 174~180MHZ) is very, very rare ....

there's a much better/more detailed and much more accurate explanation of all of this here :

http://www.dxfm.com/Content/propagation.htm

You might enjoy the main page of that site as well :

http://www.dxfm.com/

Nitewatchman

07-08-09, 10:38 PM

this is my antenna:
AntennasDirect DB4 Off-Air HDTV Antenna
hdtvantennalabs.com

That's a UHF antenna, which is good to receive the stations in this area which broadcast on UHF frequencies --

But It's Best to use a VHF antenna (or a VHF/UHF combo antenna) for reception of WCPO 10 (Virtual channels = 9.1/9.2) and WKRC 12 (Virtual channels = 12.1/12.2), which broadcast on VHF frequencies .....

To add a VHF antenna to your current setup ... Use a VHF/UHF combiner, and mount the seperate VHF/UHF antennas at least(such as vertically on a mast) 3 feet or so apart .... 5 feet apart even better ....

This inexpensive VHF-HI band Antenna(for reception of VHF TV channels 7~13, not channels 2~6 or FM) performs quite well, is relatively small, and might be a good choice to add to your current setup :

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=Y5-7-13

Here's a VHF/UHF combiner :

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=UVSJ

Splicer010

07-09-09, 09:08 AM

This inexpensive VHF-HI band Antenna(for reception of VHF TV channels 7~13, not channels 2~6 or FM) performs quite well, is relatively small, and might be a good choice to add to your current setup :

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=Y5-7-13

Here's a VHF/UHF combiner :

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=UVSJ

I use and install this exact antenna and combiner and strongly recommend them as excellent choices...:)

pjpjpjpj

07-09-09, 01:57 PM

That's a UHF antenna, which is good to receive the stations in this area which broadcast on UHF frequencies --

But It's Best to use a VHF antenna (or a VHF/UHF combo antenna) for reception of WCPO 10 (Virtual channels = 9.1/9.2) and WKRC 12 (Virtual channels = 12.1/12.2), which broadcast on VHF frequencies .....

To add a VHF antenna to your current setup ... Use a VHF/UHF combiner, and mount the seperate VHF/UHF antennas at least(such as vertically on a mast) 3 feet or so apart .... 5 feet apart even better ....

This inexpensive VHF-HI band Antenna(for reception of VHF TV channels 7~13, not channels 2~6 or FM) performs quite well, is relatively small, and might be a good choice to add to your current setup :

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=Y5-7-13

Here's a VHF/UHF combiner :

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=UVSJ
We should probably also clarify (lest rmousir doesn't know and gets confused) that 2.x, 5.x, and 7.x are all re-mapped channel numbers and that those channels' actual physical frequencies are in UHF. The only "actual" (physical frequency) VHF channels you will be concerned with in the Cincinnati area are WCPO (9.x remapped from 10.x) and WKRC (12.x) as Jeff mentioned above.

rmousir

07-09-09, 09:03 PM

this is good info.. what I don't understand is up until sunday/monday I had 9.1/9.2 just fine. Now I have my antenna on the roof and have so many channels and still not 9.1.

So to get 9.1 I need a VHF antenna in addition to my antenna? Or when 9.1 pumps up there signal will I get them back again?

Nitewatchman

07-09-09, 10:26 PM

rmousir,

Did you try rescanning? Or, manually(If your receiver allows this) tuning to their RF channel 10 and checking signal meter reading/peaking antenna aiming for best results ???

Moving antenna outdoors would typically give you much more signal from them than with the antenna indoors, even though you're using a UHF antenna .....

Hard to say what may be going on in your case, Many factors can effect OTA reception on any particular channel or for any particular station, and many of those can be especially problematical for those using indoor antennas or the wrong antenna for the job (such as using a UHF antenna to receive VHF stations) -

I have no idea if anything changed at WCPO at the specific time you lost them, they're still coming in just fine with a strong signal here ... They have been doing some tower work for several weeks or so, and sometimes stations have to reduce power significantly to protect tower workers from RF radiation(otherwise, they could get cooked as if in a microwave, or at least get a sunburn ), but usually that only happens when the workers are actually working on the tower near the transmit antenna involved ....

They have said they were going to be reducing power throughout their work over the past several weeks, but not by a significant amount. Such that if the reason you can't get them is because of a bit of a reduction in power on their end, it would probably mean you would just be BARELY getting them when they're running at their normal power levels ..... In which case you'd probably want to improve your antenna setup anyway as, if you can, it is usually a good idea to have a fair amount of signal more than you need ... Not only for when stations reduce power(which happens on occasion for various reasons), but also to help combat issues such as fading/slight variations in received signal strength which can occur over time, or increased interference which might occur from time to time, such as from a vehicle with a unsheilded ignition system when it drives by your house, or when nearby lightning strikes occur/etc ...

Nor do I know if you'll get them back when they began operating at full power with their new top mounted antenna ....

..... Or, it may be some new source of interference on your end(or nearby) could be causing issues for you .... For example, nearby electric motors can cause electrical noise which can cause problems, especially for VHF reception ---- Agian, LOTS of possibilities may be involved concerning why you lost them ....

Hope some of that helps, In any case, as I said in earlier post, what I do know is, it's best to use a VHF antenna(not a UHF only antenna like a DB4) to receive VHF signals .....

rmousir

07-10-09, 08:06 AM

I have tried rescanning several times with no luck. I discussed this with my neighbor and they lost 9.1 as well, but a few weeks ago where I had 9.1 through last weekend.

I have been using my antenna in my attic since last fall or so with out any problems. Always getting 5.1, 9.1, 12.2, and 19.1. Now I get a pile of channels more than I did before with the move out side and still no 9.1.

If I have to add the VHF antenna I can do that. I figure I can extend the mounting bracket I have my antenna on now and put a VHF antenna on it. Don't know if I can put it 3' away though. Is there a good UHF/VHF antenna that I can look at rather than buying a 2nd antenna? I am going to wait another week or so and see how it goes. Why is 9.1 using VHF anyway?

Also, another question here. Do I need a ground wire on my antenna? It didn't come with one but I think with it mounted to a steel mounting bracket screwed to the side of my house, that it is basically a lightning post now (and it is the highest point on my home to). If I do need one, what should I use? The guy at home depot had no idea. I have the ground rods in the ground already so my guess is that I just need the wire. Any thing special I need to do with that?

Thanks very much.

pjpjpjpj

07-10-09, 08:21 AM

rmousir,

YES, you need a ground for an outdoor antenna!

If you can stand not having it for a bit longer, you might want to wait for WCPO to finish their transmitter work before you invest a huge amount into your setup. It would be a shame to spend $$$ and not have needed it.

Personally, I live about 14-15 miles from the tower, have a supposedly-UHF-only antenna in my attic, and I get WCPO just fine. Perhaps their antenna work changed the direction of their transmitter slightly and moved you into a pattern null... Jeff can answer that...

rmousir

07-10-09, 08:45 AM

I figured I needed a ground. What kind of cable do I need to use for it? Do I just tie it in to my mounting bracket and then down to my ground rod? I have never done a ground wire before. My antenna never came with a ground set up.

I will wait for a while for channel 9 to finish there work before I do anything more. I got it last week so I hope I get it back in the next week or two. My wife really likes the shows on that channel. lol

William Smith

07-10-09, 04:53 PM

A thought...

take the antenna connection off the unit and rescan with nothing connected. Then reconnect the antenna and scan again. We have reports of confused receivers...

William

rmousir

07-10-09, 08:29 PM

microbob

07-10-09, 09:36 PM

I can't get 64.1 at all over the past few weeks. They must be running low power or their antenna pattern is not aimed in my direction. I never had any problems with WCPO-DT

Splicer010

07-10-09, 10:10 PM

Your antenna is probably the cause...

microbob

07-10-09, 10:51 PM

emery_r

07-10-09, 11:04 PM

William,

just did that.. still no 9.1.. but I am pretty happy with what I have..here is a run down.

5.0, 5.1, 5.2, 12.1, 12.2, 14.1, 14.2, 14.3, 14.4, 14.5, 19.1, 19.2, 25.1, 25.2, 25.3, 25.4, 36.0 (barely), 38.0 (barely), 48.1, 48.2, 54.1, 54.2, 54.3.

I got a flash of 64.1 once or twice but I couldn't dial it in.

Watching cool stuff on:
25.1 TSN Canadian Football.. Calgary vs Winnipeg
25.2 Matlock
25.3 A-Team

Now if I can get 9.1 back I will be skippy.. Any idea if a VHF will get 64.1 in?

Also, for those who want to know, I did ground both my antenna and my coax as we discussed earlier. It was super easy and cost about $15 to do.

Now for 9.1 and 64.1. Am I being greedy?

Assuming you're receiving the same stations I am, two of those you listed are actually analog, not digital. 36 is a Cincinnati low-power repeater station for WKOI/43, which broadcasts TBN (Trinity Broadcasting) and has its tower near Hamilton. 38 is Block Broadcasting's low-power WBQC/"WKRP", which you're already getting as 25.2. While low-power analog stations are allowed to remain on the air -- only full-power analog stations had to go dark on June 12 -- Block has said 38 analog will go off sometime soon. I actually expected it to vanish before now, based on what they'd said!

Several people have asked about Ch. 64 recently -- I've seen absolutely no change at my house, so it's a mystery to me what's going on.

kyaj2

07-11-09, 11:53 PM

Millville/Hamilton west area, 11:45 p.m. tonight, did a rescan of my digital channels just for kicks, and ended up with WNDY 23.1 coming in crystal clear. I am just using a Radio Shack amplified antenna sitting in a 2nd floor western window. That seems a bit odd. Has this one been showing up on other people's radars?

And the fact that I can't get so much Cincy/Dayton stuff while getting that boggles my mind...

One more thing...I occasionally end up getting a hit when I rescan on 34.6 and 34.7. Then I tune to the channels, and it says "signal cannot be decoded". I see nothing on the TV Fool chart indicating any broadcasts on those frequencies. Thoughts?

Nitewatchman

07-12-09, 01:10 AM

A thought...

take the antenna connection off the unit and rescan with nothing connected. Then reconnect the antenna and scan again. We have reports of confused receivers...

William

William,

just did that.. still no 9.1.. but I am pretty happy with what I have..here is a run down.

Another thought along those lines ... it might be useful if rmousir could tell us the make/model of his receiver (or HDTV/etc), in case anyone else with the same equipment can report on whether or not they're also seeing the same issue ...

FWIW, I just looked at WCPO (and WSTR's) TS's with TSreader, and didn't notice changes for either (not that TSreader would necessarily indicate some changes) .....

Update: Oh, it might also be useful to know rmousir's location(generally) ... for various reasons, such as for example to know whether or not potential interference issue from spurious transmission on 2nd Harmonic from some FM stations in area might or might not potentially be an issue involved ....

Millville/Hamilton west area, 11:45 p.m. tonight, did a rescan of my digital channels just for kicks, and ended up with WNDY 23.1 coming in crystal clear. I am just using a Radio Shack amplified antenna sitting in a 2nd floor western window. That seems a bit odd. Has this one been showing up on other people's radars?

Tropo is up a bit currently .... Terrain that rises 300Feet higher than my antenna towards West and NW means that tropo catches (other than Indy VHF analogs and WNDY/WXIN/WTTK/WANE analogs when they were up for some reason) From that general direction have been fairly rare , However --- Indy stations WRTV 25 (6.x remap), WISH 9 (8.x remap) and WIPB 23 (49.x remap) Muncie are In currently here .... Screenshots for WRTV and WISH, and TSreader HTML export file(in zip file) for WIPB attached ....

Nothing on 32 moving the receiver's signal meter any(I believe WNDY digital is on 32, and maps to 23.x), but local WWRD-LP 32 Dayton coming in off back side of antenna probably has something to do with that ...

One more thing...I occasionally end up getting a hit when I rescan on 34.6 and 34.7. Then I tune to the channels, and it says "signal cannot be decoded". I see nothing on the TV Fool chart indicating any broadcasts on those frequencies. Thoughts?

WCET (digital), Cincinnati transmits on channel 34 --- What you are getting from them on "34.6 and 34.7", (Program #6 and Program #7) are "UpdateTV" streams(involves software/firmware updates for some receivers) , most receivers should ignore them ....

513Tech

07-12-09, 11:46 PM

Interesting picked up ABC 6 from Indiana. Now its fading in/out :(

emery_r

07-12-09, 11:51 PM

There are discussions on other threads here and on similar message boards concerning the fact (?) that analog nightlight service must end by midnight tonight. Nightlight service has reportedly gone dark in other cities, but right now (10 minutes till midnight), WLWT is still "on"!

Guess I'll keep watching to see what happens at the stroke of midnight...

EDIT: Well, I kept watching, and right at 11:59 PM, in the middle of a Spanish-language DTV tutorial, WLWT's analog signal went dark. Now, the only analog TV left in Cincinnati is a low-power TBN repeater on Ch. 36, and of course, WBQC/"WKRP" on Ch. 38!

513Tech

07-13-09, 12:04 AM

interesting picked up abc 6 from indiana. Now its fading in/out :(

update

wrtv abc 6

emery_r

07-13-09, 12:27 AM

Got intrigued, after reading that other distant stations were being received tonight. Checked my own set-up in an upstairs bedroom, and found two strong distant signals, both from Indianapolis:

WCLJ/42, a TBN affiliate also on RF 42, and WIPB/49, a PBS affiliate on RF 23.

rmousir

07-13-09, 08:19 AM

Hey guys. Sorry, have not been on all weekend. Here are the updates.. I did a little tweaking on my antenna, which is mounted on the highest peak of my house with little if anything in the way for interference.

My home is in the Amelia area on the east side of Cincinnati. For equipment I have the following:

room 1- Olivia 32' HD tv with built in tuner
room 2- Older projection tv with the walmart digital box
room 3- 19" tube tv with the best buy digital box

Room 1 has the best reception. I believe that this is because of the built in tuner (which may be the best quality) and the shortest cable run.

Room 2, as of this moment, has the same channels as room one, although in the past it is sometimes a channel or 2 short. But not since I moved the antenna to the roof.

Room 3, if remember correctly is one or two channels short, but I don't watch that tv often.

I did a rescan on Saturday (I might have mentioned that before) and still no channel 9.1/9.2. I have thought about calling the station and asking what they knew about it.

64.1 would be great to get but if they don't come in, I can live with that.

If I can't get 9.1 by summers end I will spring for the vhf antenna and mount it above my current set up.

As for 36 and 38, I know they are both analog and they barely come in. They are pretty snowy. I wouldn't watch them but I wanted to put it out there that I was getting a signal from them.

I hardly notice my antenna up on the roof. I am going to tweak it one more time today when I get home. I believe the reception was better before I moved it this last time so I am going to put it back one adjustment.

ngarrang

07-13-09, 01:25 PM

I decided to swap out the DB2 on the roof with a DB4. My TV scanned for 40 digital channels this time. Apparently, it was able to detect Channel 25, but the signal must be so weak, because I cannot actually see anything.

I may have to break down and buy a LP antenna if I want 25.

rmousir

07-13-09, 01:36 PM

what is a LP antenna?

ngarrang

07-13-09, 01:37 PM

Log-Periodic. The big Arrow of God looking antennas.

ncincy1

07-13-09, 01:41 PM

According to WCPO Channel 9 Chief Engineer and station management they will "switch" on the new transmitter with increased power at approximately 2:45 AM, Tuesday, July 14th.

Guess they decided to do it at such an odd time to minimize disruption.

So, when you wake up tomorrow morning the signal should be much improved.

Just to be safe, rescanning would be recommended.:)

J.

ncincy1

07-13-09, 01:44 PM

Log-Periodic. The big Arrow of God looking antennas.

Yeah, my question also. Don't think such an animal (LP antenna?) exists.

I would recommend a good distant/fringe UHF roof top antenna and you should be good to go on WOTH/WBQC 25.

ncincy1

07-13-09, 01:47 PM

Oh, you meant:

Log-Periodic Dipole Arrays (LPDA)

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/types.html

ngarrang

07-13-09, 01:57 PM

Alternately, I could beg WOTH to increase their power to the max possible to save me the trouble of going back up on my roof. :)

Tri-State Media

07-13-09, 02:49 PM

I did some independent fact-checking (placed a call to WCPO's chief engineer), and he has told me that the tentative plan is as cited above, to switch on the new antenna tonight.

HOWEVER: I caution you that there first needs to be testing done. He informed me that the testing is in progress as of 2:15 PM, and it will be known by 3:30 if that move to switch to the new, more powerful signal can go tonight, or if more needs to be done.

More information forthcoming...

Trip in VA

07-13-09, 02:49 PM

Alternately, I could beg WOTH to increase their power to the max possible to save me the trouble of going back up on my roof. :)

As far as I know, WOTH-LD is already maxed out on power.

- Trip

ngarrang

07-13-09, 02:56 PM

Interesting. I can receive the other Cinci channels just fine (or mostly fine). Maybe their max power isn't as high as the other stations, then.

Trip in VA

07-13-09, 02:58 PM

WOTH-LD is a low-powered station. As such, their power level is capped at 15 kW.

- Trip

emery_r

07-13-09, 03:23 PM

Interesting. I can receive the other Cinci channels just fine (or mostly fine). Maybe their max power isn't as high as the other stations, then.

I live pretty close to your Oxford location -- between Millville and Hamilton -- and use nothing but Terk amplified rabbit ears with a converter box on my primary OTA set-up. I get a very strong signal from WOTH with this arrangement, better than some other full-power Cincinnati stations.

One strange suggestion, if you use this Terk antenna or one like it -- try laying it on its back, with the UHF portion of the antenna pointing straight up and the UHF "arms" at right angles to the direction of Cincinnati. When WOTH was at reduced power about a month ago, that happened to maximize its signal for me!

That UHF portion of the antenna looks like a flattened metal Christmas tree, for lack of a better description. I was shocked at how much it improved reception, while making my bedroom look just a little odd, to say the least. (My wife wasn't pleased!) Don't need to do those gyrations any longer, luckily.

Tri-State Media

07-13-09, 03:38 PM

jdhughes63

07-13-09, 04:29 PM

Just received a phone call from Mr. Tom Talley (WCPO Chief Engineer).

They are GO for the switch-on of the new WCPO antenna...but not at 2:45 AM as previously reported.

Instead, they will do so at 12:05, right after "Nightline".
Not sure why the WCPO website says we have to rescan. If all they did was raise the antenna and continue on with the same frequency what does a new scan do unless you couldn't receive it in the past.

Tri-State Media

07-13-09, 04:36 PM

Not sure why the WCPO website says we have to rescan. If all they did was raise the antenna and continue on with the same frequency what does a new scan do unless you couldn't receive it in the past.

That is exactly why. Not everyone needs to - but if you couldn't receive the signal before, you should re-scan to get it tonight after 12:05.

ncincy1

07-13-09, 06:15 PM

WOTH-LD is a low-powered station. As such, their power level is capped at 15 kW.

- Trip

Yeah, but they squeeze all they can out of that 15K and cover the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky metro very well....

I receive WOTH-LD at a consistent 80% with an indoor antenna here in Sharonville and that's better than the 75% signal strength for WKRC.

Shane (their Chief Engineer) is a "miracle worker" and makes that signal hum!

I still believe that due to digital signal nuances, it's all about antenna location. You can move and/or raise it 20 degrees or 12 inches in one direction or the other and completely lose one station and gain 2 more. It's crazy, but it's the new technology we have to live with.

I also believe that the "bugs" will take some years to work out. Overall, it's still a more improved technology - IMHO.

ncincy1

07-13-09, 06:20 PM

It might be although I have noticed that their signal is lower than the rest of the Cincinnati stations when it is working. I receive full signals on all other Cincinnati stations using this antenna with a rotor on the roof. I don't have a preamp on it though.

http://www.channelmaster.com/product-overview.php?proID=26&catID=33

Very nice antenna. If you try the pre-amp route, please let us know if that helps bring in WOTH-LD. With that particular antenna - and your location - you should be able to receive channel 25.

emery_r

07-13-09, 07:16 PM

Yeah, but they squeeze all they can out of that 15K and cover the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky metro very well....

I receive WOTH-LD at a consistent 80% with an indoor antenna here in Sharonville and that's better than the 75% signal strength for WKRC.

Shane (their Chief Engineer) is a "miracle worker" and makes that signal hum!

I still believe that due to digital signal nuances, it's all about antenna location. You can move and/or raise it 20 degrees or 12 inches in one direction or the other and completely lose one station and gain 2 more. It's crazy, but it's the new technology we have to live with.

I also believe that the "bugs" will take some years to work out. Overall, it's still a more improved technology - IMHO.

I'm no technical expert (obviously), but definitely agree with the praise sent to WOTH and its technical people -- I also have had far more luck receiving WOTH consistently than either WKRC or WCPO. We'll have to see if WCPO's tower "fix" actually fixes their VHF reception problems!

There's been some discussion about WOTH abandoning RF 47 in favor of another frequency -- I sure hope, if that happens, it doesn't degrade the clean signal I've been lucky enough to receive up here on the west side of Hamilton.

rmousir

07-13-09, 08:23 PM

If I am up tonight I will do a scan and report back.. If not I will do it tomorrow. I hope it works great. Will be nice to have it back and now that I have all my other channels I am set. No more paying the cable man for me!!

ngarrang

07-13-09, 09:32 PM

Okay, this WOTH sounds really cool. Any chance we could petition them to be more powerful?

And Channel 45 while we are wishing for more power? I lost 45.1/45.2 in the switch.

Trip in VA

07-13-09, 09:35 PM

15 kW is the FCC power limit for them. No higher power level is available to them.

- Trip

Nitewatchman

07-13-09, 10:03 PM

My home is in the Amelia area on the east side of Cincinnati. For equipment I have the following:

room 1- Olivia 32' HD tv with built in tuner
room 2- Older projection tv with the walmart digital box
room 3- 19" tube tv with the best buy digital box

Unless Terrain shielding specific to your receive location is a significant issue (check the plot for your exact location at www.tvfool.com ) , === You should really probably be getting everything from Cincinnati (including WCPO and WSTR, and good signals from the LP stations) fairly easily ...

That being said, at one time during much earlier days --- WSTR was running at low power and using a very directional antenna pattern with a huge Null towards your area, such that it only squirted a couple hundred watts in that direction --- They increased power significantly a number of years ago(and if they're still running THAT facility, you should be able to get them just fine) --- However, I don't know what they may be doing currently STA wise - The records that show up for them in FCC's TV query are rather confusing, as there are a number different records involved -- However --- I do notice They have recently amended one of the applications, and per that most recent application/amendment, they are (tentatively I assume, as I as of yet see no indication FCC has granted the app per info publicly available from FCC site) planning on at some point in the future, using a Non-directional transmit antenna(with CP = circular polarization - Mobile DTV cough, cough) for DTV which from top of their tower .... The app is for 360 KW ERP ...

Note: In regards to an earlier comment of mine, I don't think interference from FM stations should be an issue for you, I was mainly concerned about 96.5 FM (2nd harmonic of 96.5 is within channel 10 frequencies) in case you were near their transmitter in Mason area ..... Hard to say, but I'd also suspect you probably aren't dealing with a receiver model specific issue given the "walmart" and Best buy STB's, ---- assuming they were popular models, otherwise we (and/or WCPO) would have probably heard about it by now ....

Anyway --- My best suggestion at this point might be that you might want to check all connections, as well as test with all splitters (and or amps) removed/ check the reception with just one of the receivers - such as in room 1 (with the shortest cable run) ....

Not sure what model receivers you are specifically referring to regarding the "best buy" or "walmart" boxes, but if either of those are the insignia or Zenith CECB's, those would be good receivers to use for that test w/o the splitters (or amps) .... especially regarding their "manual tuning" functions/capabiltiy to allow you to tune to the actual channel of transmission and check the reading on the signal quality meter/adjust antenna for best results ....

As for 36 and 38, I know they are both analog and they barely come in. They are pretty snowy. I wouldn't watch them but I wanted to put it out there that I was getting a signal from them.

Again, unless it's an issue with terrain shielding --- Both 36 and 38 probably really should be pretty much "snow free" and clear for you with your usage of UHF DB4 for outdoor antenna, assuming it's generally aimed in Direction of Downtown Cincinnati .... Hence my suggestion to check the connections and make sure your not getting too much attenuation from Splitters/etc in line (or conversely, desense in your tuners via "overloading" things with an amplifier) .... If you are just using passive splitters currently --- Some additional amplification (for recovering loss in the splitters and feedline runs) *may* be of some use for you, but you'll probably want to be careful with that ...

BTW, For a "generic" Amelia TVfool plot, it predicts -49dBmW for WBQC-CA 38, and -58.8dBmW for W36DG .... In other words, those UHF analog LP signals *should* probably be pretty much "crystal clear" with your antenna setup ... (especially 38) ....

Splicer010

07-14-09, 02:02 AM

As of 2AM there is a zero difference in signal strength/quality on WCPO-DT Ch 10remapped to Ch 9-1...I thought they were turning up the power at 12:05???

emery_r

07-14-09, 06:48 AM

As of 2AM there is a zero difference in signal strength/quality on WCPO-DT Ch 10remapped to Ch 9-1...I thought they were turning up the power at 12:05???

I've checked on two different set-ups at my house (both outfitted with rabbit ears and converter boxes), and both are far better this morning. One actually now picks up WCPO *without* having its rabbit ears extended; previously the station was spotty even fully extended and oriented for maximum strength.

I was also watching after midnight for any obvious change, but gave up around 12:15 and went to bed. On the Dayton thread, "voyager6" reported:
- - -
At 12:18 there was a glitch and WCPO was off air for a couple of seconds.

Afterwards, the TV stayed at 69. The DVR jumped up to a steady 91-92 with peaks of 94 percent, for a gain of 4 to 5 percent here just north of I-70 in Dayton.

For fun, I moved the antenna around and had a usable signal for a wider range than I remember. I can almost point east at Columbus and get a solid lock. Swinging back west, at 208 degrees, I get a peak of 80 percent on the TV, which continues until 245 degrees before dropping off. The DVR peaks at 99 percent at 204 degrees, but rapidly drops off to either side.
- - -
This morning, I'm seeing better signal strength on two different set-ups with converter boxes and rabbit ears; in fact, one of them gets WCPO now WITHOUT having the rabbit ears extended! Their morning news show confirmed they had in fact boosted their power overnight, and predicted viewers would notice the difference. I know *I* am!

voyager6

07-14-09, 07:00 AM

In addition to what I said last night, I can now pick up WCPO on my fixed UHF antenna that feeds my bedroom. Signal is only 30 percent, but what are the odds of getting a VHF signal on an unamplified UHF (Radio Shack U-75) fixed at Cincinnati at 25' with 100' of downfeed at 58 miles distance?

As of 7Am this morning, the solar wind hasn't lowered its signal to noise below the TV's reception threshold.

In my living room, with the amplified VHF antenna, I see a small signal drop this morning, But I am still getting more than before the switchover last night.

rmousir

07-14-09, 07:59 AM

OK.. They are back.. got up this morning and ran a new scan and 9.1/9.2 are back. Super sweet! Had they not done there work I would have left my antenna in the attic. Now with the channel 9 folks doing what ever it is they were doing, I have learned a lot and also have several new channels that I can enjoy. A couple are pretty cool. Now what can I do to get 64.1??? :)

wkrp

07-14-09, 12:34 PM

emery_r

07-14-09, 12:54 PM

Trip,
WOTH-LD is running the max. power allowed by the FCC. The max. power is in the horizontal plane. Our antenna is CP, thus we are running max. power (15Kw) horizontal and max power (15Kw) in the vertical plain. This SHOULD work better for indoor antennas set at "unknowen" angels. As for roof mounter outdoor antennas it does not make much difference. EMERY_R has said he has moved his antenna, getting us in the vertical plane will knock down any signal in the horizonal plane (WAVE-TV) by 50% at least.
We can't increase out power BUT you, on the receving end can increase our singal to your set by 100%. Here are some tips, A, take out one splitter =3dB, B, get a better antenna from a 12dB antenna to a 15dB one, C, 100' of RG-59 vs 100' of RG6 is 1.5dB it might make just the difference you need with the cliff effect.

Elliott

PS, Shane says "we don't have a "hum" in any of our audio"!

I'm not quite sure, but it sounds like you were confirming my weird experience where flipping my UHF antenna 90 degrees to the vertical direction could have improved WOTH reception. If so, I'm glad to know that I'm not insane (about this, if nothing else). :rolleyes: I haven't actually tried that trick since the time several weeks ago when you were at reduced power -- your signal strength is now as good as any other local station at my house.

Mr. Block, any plans to pull the plug on your Ch. 38 analog signal in the near future? Other than TBN's Ch. 36 translator, I think you're the "last analog man standing" in Cincinnati!

ngarrang

07-14-09, 01:06 PM

12 to 15 db range sounds like what I need to target for my next antenna.

My DB4 is pulling in maybe 8 to 9db, maybe.

wkrp

07-14-09, 01:06 PM

We were waiting for all the small cable operator to confirm the were getting us via 25.2.
Insight change over last week, so it's time, channel 5 was night lighting till the Sunday, we are doing our regular programing so I guess we can say we were the last. Channel 36 is a translator of ch 41 in Ca. (TBN).

Elliott

wkrp

07-14-09, 01:11 PM

12 to 15 db range sounds like what I need to target for my next antenna.

My DB4 is pulling in maybe 8 to 9db, maybe

NGARRANG, if you went from an 9dB gain antennato a 15dB gain antenna, it would be like us increasing our power from 15Kw to 60Kw (6dB).

Elliott

ncincy1

07-14-09, 03:01 PM

ngarrang

07-14-09, 03:10 PM

emery_r

07-14-09, 03:32 PM

Well, it looks like before the end of August, I am going to plunk down the cash for a ChannelMaster CrossFire or similar model. I have been re-using my DirecTV mounting post for the DB2/DB4 antennae.

If I am lucky, I can find someone locally that gave up on OTA TV and doesn't need their antenna anymore.

A TV Fool map shows my location just outside of Oxford being in the violet colored boonies for WOTH.

At the moment, I get 2, 5, 9, 12, 14, 16, 19, 26, 43, 48 and 64's digital channels. I am greedy. I want more. I am surprised, frankly, that I am getting such a good picture with 9 and 12 on my DB4 at my distance.

If I can bring in 7, 25, 45 and 54, I would have the complete set of stations.

WHIO is still working on its antenna, so some improvement for you is likely -- if WCPO improved for you overnight, something similar could soon be coming your way (and mine!) from Dayton. I've seen no chatter about FCC requests for higher power or plans of tower work at any of those other stations, but other folks are probably better sources for this info.

I've read some speculation about WOTH-25 shifting from RF 47 to another frequency, to avoid possible problems with Louisville's WAVE-3, also on RF 47, and maybe for other reasons -- don't know if any such change would entail a power boost too, but Mr. Block was posting messages here earlier. Maybe he could comment again?

I've also seen suggestions that some low-power stations might be granted full-power status across the country, as long as interference issues were addressed -- once again, someone at WOTH could certainly address this issue with more authority!

Sea Ray

07-14-09, 06:15 PM

gjvrieze

07-14-09, 06:35 PM

Is installing an antenna rotor a do it your self job or is that not advised? How involved is it?

This is for an outdoor antenna in the boonies of Northern Michigan. Last year I found that the only way I could get all the stations in the area was if I climbed up on the roof and manually changed the direction of the antenna. We could get all the analog stations but some were fuzzy. I haven't headed up north yet this year but I know I'll need to address this now that analog is gone.

It is a pretty easy process. Simply remove the current antenna and mast, put the rotator where you want it and re-attach the mast and antenna and aim straight North (the dead spot is between 360 degrees and 1 degree.) Biggest thing is to remember the bigger the antenna, the less mast you want to come out of the top of the rotator, too much will heavily wear on it and cause a pre-mature failure. I would check the digitals and see where you stand before adding a rotator. With analog you needed a perfect signal to yield a good looking picture, and in many cases, the digitals are much more forgiving of "aim cheating" (provided the analogs you were getting before included some UHFs. You have both UHF (channels 14-51) and VHF-HI (7-13) stations in your market, but no VHF-LO (channels 2-6) stations. So a good high gain VHF-HI/UHF antenna would be the best bet. If you need more help, go to and post your TVfool.com results and we can assist.

kyaj2

07-14-09, 08:15 PM

Is WXIX gonna be showing the All-Star Game in HD? I was figuring they would, but as of 8:13, no luck. :-P

And as soon as I post this, they change it. Nice. :) I feel like I have some sort of power now!

Nitewatchman

07-14-09, 10:43 PM

This SHOULD work better for indoor antennas set at "unknowen" angels.

Maybe Angels named Jennifer or Bailey have something to do with it ??? ;)

But seriously ... excellent posts Elliot ..

A bit of feedline(particularly if it's running "vertically", more or less) near where it is coupled to antenna will probably pick up a bit of the signal as well in many cases(particularly perhaps if Balanced Twinlead is used, such as with old fashioned "rabbit ears"), and the CP can probably help with that as well ... (Especially for VHF signals using CP like WCPO/WKRC and for those using UHF only antennas) .....

Tri-State Media

07-15-09, 05:17 AM

As it stands right now, WCVN-TV 54/Covington is already operating on it's approved post-switch facility on channel 24 (mapping to 54). They filed for a license to cover on their construction permit seven years back and it was approved.

WRGT-TV 45/Dayton is also operating on THEIR post-transition facility at channel 45, it appears as of now, and it doesn't appear that that facility is going to change. However - I do submit that I'm basing my information on what I can glean from the FCC database. As such - that might not be entirely accurate.

I will attempt to get hold of an engineer from WRGT-TV and ascertain the status of their operations. As for WCVN...you're probably up the creek there, unfortunately.

Tri-State Media

07-15-09, 05:44 AM

Well I am learning those TV Fool maps everybody is talking about - so bear with me here.

It looks to us like you should get a not so horrible signal off WRGT IF you go to the second floor or attic. (I'm not sure which direction you are from Oxford, but I'm guessing southeast or due north from what you mentioned about what the map said for WOTH [more on that in a moment])

As for WCVN - good luck. Would need a rooftop antenna to get them, IF you're lucky. That signal doesn't even show up on the map in spots southeast of the city on US 27.

Hopefully the WHIO situation is helped when they go to their top-mounted assembly.

And of course, you and Elliott already established the WBQC/WOTH situation - you're in the violet colors, which basically means good luck there too - again, rooftop antenna is probably necessary.

The upshot: If you go rooftop, you've got a better chance of getting all four stations once WHIO finishes their work.

robertjchambers

07-15-09, 08:22 AM

I lived in the Oxford mile-square for three years, with an Antennacraft VHF-HI/UHF in the attic and had zero issues with both WBQC and WCVN - around 85% signal consistently. With Oxford terrain, you might still need to roof-mount it; but it is possible, and the signal is strong in the city at least.

wkrp

07-15-09, 10:41 AM

Bill R (# 2)

07-15-09, 11:02 AM

PS, We do have software for the fifth channel, just have to decide what to put on it.

Elliott

Elliott,

Nice to see you active on this forum.

Until you decide what to up permanently put on 25.5 how about putting the tower cam shot back up with sound from NOAA weather radio.

emery_r

07-15-09, 11:28 AM

Jeff,
I might be a better engineer that I am at typing or spelling. May be I should learn how to us the spell check.

As far as changing channels we have NO plans to do so. The FCC runs a program (Longley-Rice) the analyzes the singal down to ever one square Kilometer cell in our 51dBu coverage area. the interference can't exceed 0.5%. Our interference is 0.8% (15,451 out of 1,900,612 people) The rules say the interference can't exceed that amout ot any other assignments, ie WAVE-TV or when WCET-TV was on channel 48, I don't know how much of that number was channel 48, but I'll bet most was co-channel from 48.
The cost to change out antennas would put us out of business. About $200,000.00.

I have a channel 25 SWR 16 bay omni CP antenna bought in 2004, now just sitting on the ground, for sale cheap, $50,000.00 will get it!

I talk to people every day about getting digital stations including mine. The two most common things wrong is in the antenna and the set-up of the converter box or TV.
The fellow who lives next door to me has an antenna in his attic and get us fine on all his sets but, his set in his living room has no audio on 25.1, go figure! I guess I'll have to make a house call.
I hope this will answer most of your questions.

Elliott

PS, We do have it software for the fifth channel, just have to decide what to put on it.

Glad to know you have no plans to switch frequencies -- I'd be afraid of losing the strong signal I receive now on RF 47! This ought to put to rest the speculation about such a switch.

I also had problems months ago with a Dish Network DTV Pal converter box that displayed picture but no sound on 25.1 thru 25.4. It's in my son's bedroom, and to be honest, he never watched these channels so it wasn't an issue for him -- but I always wondered why sound was absent. Never could figure it out -- wasn't mono vs. stereo issues, or SAP either. No audio setting I chose could fix it, and re-scanning never helped. But it's fine now.

Suggestion for 25.5 -- something a little more creative than yet another 24-hour weather channel, please! Too bad WLWT and WCPO haven't realized Cincinnati really doesn't need TWO such channels. But Block is obviously far more creative than that, based on existing programming. :)

Sea Ray

07-15-09, 11:46 AM

Suggestion for 25.5 -- something a little more creative than yet another 24-hour weather channel, please! Too bad WLWT and WCPO haven't realized Cincinnati really doesn't need TWO such channels. But Block is obviously far more creative than that, based on existing programming. :)

In Washington, DC all three major networks have weather sub channels. I thought that was a bit much...

emery_r

07-15-09, 11:59 AM

In Washington, DC all three major networks have weather sub channels. I thought that was a bit much...

That's almost literally unbelieveable -- but speaks to the driving need broadcasters have to economize wherever possible these days. Weather channels are probably pretty cheap to operate, being mostly automated.

Especially on weekends, WCPO doesn't update their constantly looping forecast as often as they should -- often, they're still playing a forecast that begins with a cheery "Good morning!", only it's already mid-afternoon. And then there's the news crawl. I've seen old stories, literally from 2 or 3 days BEFORE, still scrolling across the bottom of the screen. They must have laid off the people who are supposed to update these headlines, I guess.

Sea Ray

07-15-09, 12:08 PM

Ch 9 would have been much better off if they'd just stuck to NOAA and a 24 hr weather radar. Kind of makes me long for a storm in the area because then they do this

ThoraX695

07-15-09, 12:40 PM

Ch 9 would have been much better off if they'd just stuck to NOAA and a 24 hr weather radar. Kind of makes me long for a storm in the area because then they do this

Or perhaps they (or WLWT) can run their weather channel with a 16:9 screen ratio.

ThoraX695

07-15-09, 12:47 PM

I have a channel 25 SWR 16 bay omni CP antenna bought in 2004, now just sitting on the ground, for sale cheap, $50,000.00 will get it!

I bet there's a station out there that's looking for a gently used antenna like this. Perhaps you can swap it with someone for a channel 20 antenna. :)

ncincy1

07-15-09, 01:51 PM

emery_r

07-15-09, 02:11 PM

NOW, maybe these rogue "blogs" can get their facts correct and quite causing such a stir about nothing.

To be precise, however, there was discussion on THIS thread of possible RF changes, complete with links to FCC filings, back on June 26. I recalled reading such messages at the time, and just now went back a few pages to confirm my recollection.

That speculation may have been totally wrong, but there was SOME basis for it.

Tri-State Media

07-15-09, 02:53 PM

NOW, maybe these rogue "blogs" can get their facts correct and quite causing such a stir about nothing.

I might not be who you're talking about, but let me make one thing clear.

The blog that I run, Tri-State Media Watch, is far from a "rogue blog". We make every attempt to be as professional as possible.

I am certain we're read by people inside local media outlets. We're quickly becoming another source people can go to for information.

When users search for anything related to local media, in most cases we are one of the first ten results to pop up. Heck, when people search for John Kiesewetter's blog...21 PERCENT of our hits come from that. People give us a chance to make an impression. I hope the impression I leave on most is a good one.

I like to call myself the alternative to Kiesewetter. Don't get me wrong - there is nothing wrong with his service, and nothing wrong with the job he is doing.

The thing is, he's inside the media he's covering, more or less. Being on the inside, tends to change one's views of things happening around them. I just feel I can provide the "outsider's perspective" if you will.

And one more thing: We never published any of that particular piece of speculation. I went back through my blogs. The only "change" I talked about as it relates to WBQC or WOTH, is the fact that Insight switched from Channel 38's analog, to the 25.2 digital signal for WBQC/WKRP. (In such post, by the way, I did quote Mr. Block directly FROM THIS FORUM.) Never did I once talk about any kind of move to change WOTH's allocation. And I never will unless Mr. Block himself decides he needs to do so - and then, we'll report it as FACT, and not the speculation that is apparent.

ngarrang

07-15-09, 03:35 PM

ngarrang

07-15-09, 03:40 PM

WKRP, looking for suggestions for the 5th channel? How about music videos? Just music videos. Each hour of the day could be a different theme of music.

ncincy1

07-15-09, 04:52 PM

ncincy1

07-15-09, 04:55 PM

WKRP, looking for suggestions for the 5th channel? How about music videos? Just music videos. Each hour of the day could be a different theme of music.

Hmmm? Kind of like the old days of radio. "Block" programming - no pun intended.
Country videos in the morning, pop videos in the afternoon, urban in the early evening, etc.

Or, maybe something like the old Tube Music Channel that used to be on WXIX 19.2 (which, unfortunately, died a slow death) :(

microbob

07-15-09, 06:50 PM

The best of Friday Night FU would be my suggestion.

gerhard911

07-15-09, 07:09 PM

ncincy1

07-15-09, 08:34 PM

At the risk of whacking a hornet's nest, I would suggest, considering the marginal picture quality of 25.1 already, forget the idea of 25.5.

I try and watch some of the auto racing on 25.1 (A1GP mostly) and find the PQ to be so soft as to look out of focus. Barely watchable on a 19" CRT, pretty bad on my 29" Trinitron, and really fugly on any of my HD sets (37" LCD, 50" & 61" DLPs).

It also suffers from frequent sound and video drop outs and seems to be too dark as well. When SPEED broadcast these races (same European production) they had none of these issues.

That's an interesting technical concept I can't competently respond to.

I DID hear (can't confirm) that having more than one digital sub-channel will somewhat degrade the quality of the main channel if showing HD. Example: Maybe that's why most of the networks in town (NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX) only have 1 sub-channel vs. multiple.

Can anyone confirm if there is poor signal quality on digital stations with multiple sub-channels?

As for me, I see little and/or no significant difference in picture quality for channels 25.1 - 25.4.

Note: I does seem that 25.4 has the better picture quality of the four sub-channels. Maybe it's the quality of the feed they receive from the originating source?

blbrodbeck

07-15-09, 09:03 PM

I vote for something with short segments, such as all Music Videos, or all Cartoons. Or a channel which would repeat one of the local station's local news broadcasts 24 hours a day.

ngarrang

07-15-09, 09:13 PM

I remember MTV when it started. I would like to see a return that original, pure concept.

Splicer010

07-15-09, 09:50 PM

voyager6

07-15-09, 11:25 PM

I DID hear (can't confirm) that having more than one digital sub-channel will somewhat degrade the quality of the main channel if showing HD. Example: Maybe that's why most of the networks in town (NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX) only have 1 sub-channel vs. multiple.

Can anyone confirm if there is poor signal quality on digital stations with multiple sub-channels?

Each 6Mhz ATSC TV channel has just over 19Mbps (Million bits per second) bandwidth. Each sub-channel uses some of the bandwidth. The more sub-channels, the less each individual sub-channel gets. In many cases, stations have to increase the MPEG2 compression when they run subchannels. This causes artificial noise to be injected into the picture. Anytime the bandwidth is reduced for the HD sub-channel, the HD picture has to be decompressed and recompressed for the lower bandwidth, which degrades the picture slightly.

Many higher end TVs have sophisticated signal processing that can remove much of the common MPEG artifacts such as mosquito noise. However, in live sports when the camera pans rapidly, you can often see the background (stands) either lose detail and become blocky or the background will freeze and jump while the foreground images continue to move nearly normally. This is a direct result of insufficient bandwidth.

Generally, 19Mbps can support one 720p HD channel and one SD channel with minimal visible artifacts. 1080i generally needs all 19Mbps. So PBS Channels 14 and 16 that often run 1 HD and three or four SD subchannels are really pushing it. I do not know if TV stations can reduce the digital error correction to gain extra bandwidth. If they can, then that can cause people receiving a weak signal to pixelize or lose lock temporarily.

One way around the limitation is to use a statistical multiplexer (aka statmux). This device looks at the content on the subchannels and dynamically allocates bandwidth depending on the needs of each channel. Generally, a HD sub-channel is given priority and steals bandwidth from the SD channels, but it could also be set up to make all sub-channels equal priority. If done reasonably well, you can generally squeeze one more SD sub-channel out of the system without hurting the HD picture quality. The statmuxes can be expensive and will delay the signal a few seconds while the pictures are analyzed.

Now on the other hand, stations are learning that having multiple sub-channels means more opportunities for advertising revenue - even the network channels with their weather sub-channels (which is almost all commercials now. They just rotate between live video and static advertisements while providing weather info in other parts of the screen.

Many old-timers, who have been watching digital TV for years often lament about how HD looks today compared to the good old days when stations struggled to put up a single channel and gave all the bandwidth to it.

voyager6

07-16-09, 12:09 AM

WCPO is the worse it has ever been since turning on that new antenna...I get more dropouts now than ever before...

Noone believed me when I said there was an issue with WLWT either until y'all did a TS reader report for me and noticed some inconsistencies and notified WLWT engineering dept...They found the issue and corrected it...Now WCPO is doing the SAME THING...

Can someone please assist again like you did for me with WLWT and see if there is a problem since I don't have that program???

As for channel 25-DT PQ just figure there is only an available amount of bandwidth...When more channels are added the bandwidth for the existing channels must drop...I suggest that NO 25-5 be implemented...I am pressuming that Block is merely dividing the available bandwidth equally between the 4 channels since none are in HD that would require additional or higher bandwidth...

I watched WCPO this morning and heard some audio dropouts, but no video issues.

As far as Channel 25 going to 5 subchannels. I don't think it will hurt too much. 4.75 Mbps with 4 sub channels to 3.8Mbps with 5. 4.75Mbps is an excellent bandwidth. Ideally I would like them to have a statmux to dynamically allocate the bandwidth to where it is needed, but they probably can't afford that.

Splicer010

07-16-09, 10:50 AM

I watched WCPO this morning and heard some audio dropouts, but no video issues. Absolutely...The audio is what is affected...Same as WLWT audio was affected before they corrected the problem...Now if WCPO would correct the problem I'd be happy as I'm sure many others would also be...

Nitewatchman

07-16-09, 01:34 PM

WRGT(digital) is on channel 30.... As for WCVN, KET Engineer William Smith posts on this very thread ... Contact info for others at KET is available at their website, I've allways found them to be quite amiable and responsive to DTV questions/comments ...

Jeff,
I might be a better engineer that I am at typing or spelling. May be I should learn how to us the spell check.

You'll find plenty mistakes along those lines in my posts as well ... I meant that very lightheartedly, BTW -- I just can't resist a wkrp joke ...

As far as changing channels we have NO plans to do so.

As mentioned in a previous message, WOTH filed (Actually You filed - Section III - Preparer's certifcation" has your Name address and email address on it at least) a displacement application with FCC for channel 19 for WOTH analog on 6/22/09, here is link to the application itself from FCC's CDBS :

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101317887&formid=346&fac_num=19432

Hence some of the "speculation", although I believe some here seem to be confusing things a bit. The speculation involved discussion/speculation concerning why that displacement app may have been filed(one might also wonder why WOTH waited until very recently to file for remain silent authority for WOTH analog, although I believe it has apparently been off air for several months) , and/or speculation involving what MIGHT potentially happen should the displacement app for 19 be granted by FCC ....

As we know, even if FCC grants such things/a Construction permit is issued ... Depending upon circumstances, it may never get used, which is why my "speculation" during that discussion was that the displacement app might be more about adding future *potential* options (which may or may not get used) rather than anything else ...

Anyway --- I regret posting that info now, I probably should not have done so given some of the recent changes in postings to this thread ... Seems we have more "media type" folks posting these days ... "Contreversy" sells papers of course .....

Also, as far as the talk about the possibility of Class A stations being granted "full service" status --- I regret mentioning that as well, especially if I wasn't clear about it being nothing more than "idle talk" in DC .... as AFAIK, the "talk" was nothing more than some folks in D.C. at some point(such as say, some senator in committee meeting where the subject of discussion was DTV transition) saying they "thought" it might be a good idea ... In other words, AFAIK, nothing more than Idle talk at this point ....

============

Important Update: Of course, also, more "speculation" might involve the possibility of the displacement app (and remain silent authority/etc for WOTH analog) being filed for legal reasons or similar(I have seen it be the case FCC even sometimes "advises" licensees to do things such as this on occasion), given WOTH-LD is a "companion" channel to WOTH analog (not a flash cut), and the FCC rules for LP digital are still being developed ....

The fellow who lives next door to me has an antenna in his attic and get us fine on all his sets but, his set in his living room has no audio on 25.1, go figure!

Different receivers behave differently .. Without required receiver standards, it seems designers make assumptions about how certian issues will be implemented, sometimes they are bad assumptions when stations do things (not necessarily "incorrectly") a little differently ...

MPEG Audio is not part of our DTV standard, for instance --- AC3 audio is -- Some receivers will handle (and even decode) MPEG audio streams just fine, others won't, as many don't even have decoders for MPEG audio ...

720x480 also was not a resolution which was originally in ATSC table 3 --- I don't know of any decoders which don't handle it properly(they all should), nevertheless it's a possibility there could be an issue ... That's probably one of the reasons Most stations with 480i services send 704x480 or 640x480 ....

Anyway --- One issue I've noticed with one receiver (Zenith HDV420) here with WOTH-LD (someone with a later LG receiver has also posted similar report) is that it won't display the TVCT major/Minor channel #'s for WOTH-LD, instead, it only shows up on 47.1~4 --- All my other receivers display "25.1~25.4" just fine ..... It's the only station I've ever seen that not "work" for with this particular receiver .... While I don't know why that is occuring -- I've done a little "sleuthing" on it, and with some help and discussion with a fellow in Denver Thread (involving possibly a similar issue involving a stations stream in that area) -- a *WAG* at this point may be that this issue may be occuring because WOTH-LD's TVCT is being sent in multiple sections ... While there is nothing "wrong" with that AFAIK, nevertheless, it looks like it may be the case some receivers(such as Zenith HDV420) may not process the TVCT properly because of that, and thus not display the TVCT major/Minor channel #'s to the user (25.1~4 in this case) ....

Oh -- Also, I notice Zenith DTT900/901 aren't displaying EPG info from PSIP EITs entirely "properly" for WOTH-LD ... If I "tune" to another station and then back to WOTH-LD's stream -- The info is there, otherwise (such as in the "guide" display), it often isn't, even though the info is actually there in EITs ... Also, a Sony HDTV (KD34XBR960) I have will not display the EPG info from WOTH-LD's EITs at all for some reason ... (Note that That TV is designed such that it only show info from EITs on current program, but again for some unknown reason, even that is not working for WOTH) ...

I hope this will answer most of your questions.

I realize it was likely your intention to address multiple posters posts, and I appreciate your comments, regardless ---- so don't take this the "wrong way" --- but, you did address your response to me -- so just as a point of clarification --- I didn't really have any "questions" I don't think ;) ...

Nitewatchman

07-16-09, 02:47 PM

The FCC runs a program (Longley-Rice) the analyzes the singal down to ever one square Kilometer cell in our 51dBu coverage area. the interference can't exceed 0.5%. Our interference is 0.8% (15,451 out of 1,900,612 people) The rules say the interference can't exceed that amout ot any other assignments, ie WAVE-TV or when WCET-TV was on channel 48, I don't know how much of that number was channel 48, but I'll bet most was co-channel from 48.

First, Sorry for the double posts --- I thought I'd comment on this seperately ....

Yes ... Often The detailed results of such an interference study (using FCC's Longely rice program described in OET bulletin #69) are included in "technical exhibits" attached to the applications for Construction permits, or the results of it are summarized --- In WOTH's case, the consulting engineer summarized(much as you have) and described the results of the study in a "technical exhibit" attached to the application for a construction permit for channel 47 -- For those interested, That attachment (PDF format) is at following link, also - a predicted service area map(51dBu) quite similar to the "less detailed" map currently available from FCC is provided :

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=440110&formid=346&q_num=5110

Of course, that interference study(nor any FCC rules) does not take into account enhanced propagation ("tropo") which often occurs in this area, especially overnight and in early morning hours in the warmer spring/summer/fall months .... often, normal radiational cooling on some nights will even cause a bit of a temp inversion, thus enhancing ( a bit) reception of VHF/UHF signals beyond the normal limits of the curvature of Earth (Radio horizon) ....

I personally did not think there would be any signifcant issues with Interference (N -1 from WCET, or co-channel regarding WAVE), and AFAIK, that has turned out to be the case .... Before WOTH-LD came on air, WAVE was one of the Louisville stations I saw most often via a bit of enhanced signal propagation -- But so far, I have not had an issue with WAVE interfering with WOTH-LD here ....

That being said ... It is interesting to examine the predicted service contour maps(based on FCC's contour methodology, Not Longely-Rice) on FCC site for WOTH-LD and WAVE ....

WOTH-LD map (51dBu contour) :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1282207.html

WAVE Map (41dBu contour) :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT631663.html

As you can see, there an area which is overlapped (Just SW of Rising Sun) ... And of course, the LD signal does not work "differently" than the full service station's signal, and one should probably generally expect it to be receivable to a weaker 41dBu contour (absent interference of course), and in some cases, a bit beyond it (receive locations on high hills, using hi-gain tower mounted antennas and mast mounted preamps/etc) .....

Assuming (per the contour methodology) these maps are somewhat correct --- What surprises me a bit about this is not potential interference to WOTH (LP stations must accept interference from other stations) --- But potential interference to portions of WAVE's service area, including any (greater)area not indicated by these maps which would be overlapped by WOTH's 41dBu predicted contour (vs. the smaller 51dBu service contour for LP stations) ....

Hopefully, in the "real world" it won't turn out to be a problem issue for those few folks that might be effected, given folks at the fringes should be using directional, outdoor receive antennas which meet or exceed FCC planning factors for DTV reception(which BTW, IS part of the "non-real world" equation here as well), and in this case in the area of WAVE's service area of most concern, Aiming receive antenna at Floyd's Knob should put Cincinnati in a pretty good null ...

emery_r

07-16-09, 03:35 PM

...in this case in the area of WAVE's service area of most concern, Aiming receive antenna at Floyd's Knob should put Cincinnati in a pretty good null ...

After reading the longer post, THIS particular ending line created an obvious question in my troubled mind -- WHERE (and WHAT) is Floyd's Knob?

Oddly enough, I found evidence of TWO in Indiana -- one NE of Indianapolis, and another in Floyd County, NW of Louisville. The latter one seems to be the location for broadcast towers of several Louisville stations. Love that local flavor -- I take it the knob is a high point in local terrain, and is the site for a "tower farm", as they're often described?

Another random, but real, place name I've heard: Booger Hole, WV. No broadcast towers there, unfortunately. :D

Nitewatchman

07-16-09, 04:50 PM

My location (more specifically) is Darrtown, East of Oxford a few miles (and slightly southish) on SR-177. My antenna is a standard DB4 mounted on the roof pointed to 170 degrees, since Cinci had more channels to offer, is about 20 feet up from the ground overall.

This has netted me nearly channel as I previously listed. I used to get 45 before the switch over, so I thought it was strange that I lost it. I am pretty much getting everything I can with my current antenna setup. Now, if I had the resources to put that DB4 up to about 50 feet, things might change, but that is undoable at this time.

If I recall correctly(and vaguely), there may be some local terrain issues involved for you ...... Care to post your TVfool plot for your exact receive location ? That will tell us more, such as, it may give us an idea whether or not terrain obstructions may be a significant enough issue to be a problem for reception of some stations .... Such as with WCVN and WOTH, which broadcast from transmit antenna heights which are lower than the other stations you are receiving - FWIW, I'm 15 miles SW of Downtown Dayton between Middletown+Germantown, right on Montgomery/Butler co line, and also right on the predicted 41dbu contour "line" for WCVN(39 Miles distant from them), and I receive them(and WOTH/WBQC for that matter) just fine(with outdoor antenna), with some terrain issues involved -- TVfool predicts 2edge diffraction for those for me .....

Also, Best to aim antenna at Cincinnati For cincinnati stations, aim it at Dayton to receive Dayton stations ..... Combining seperate antennas onto the same feedline, antennas which are aimed in different directions, can work in some cases to some extent -- but can cause various issues, such as increasing multipath difficulties(The multipath from the antenna aimed the wrong way is "mixed in" with the good signal from the antenna aimed the right way), and it's usually best in that case to either use a rotor and single antenna, or use seperate feedlines and a A/B switch before receiver to switch between the two antennas as desired ...

Also, WRGT transmits on channel 30(maps to 45.x), WXIX transmits on Channel 29 (maps to 19.x) ... Given the spacing between them involved, and that they are on 1st adjacent channels, There can be issue with receiver selectivity, especially if you are trying to receive a weaker signal from WRGT off the back/side of antenna with your antenna aimed at WXIX (cincinnati) ....

While AFAIK nothing has changed for WXIX or WRGT vs. pre-transition, what has changed is that WKRC which was 31 (now on 12) was N+1 to WRGT, and now isn't .... While one might logically think or assume that would mean less of an issue for the receiver to pull out a weak signal, such as off side/back side of antenna on 30 with WKRC gone from 31 (but WXIX still on 29)... Nevertheless, things aren't allways "logical" when it comes to OTA reception and superhetrodyne receivers with limited selectivity, and unknown performance charactieristics in any given case(per make/model of receiver/etc) .... For example, perhaps it's possible the AGC (automatic gain control) of receiver could have kept up with things better for some reason with WRGT being in between the two stronger, Cincinnati signals vs. only having one stronger station on 1st (lower) adjacent channel ...

In any case, regarding such channel allocations and why they still should "work" and why FCC allows them in some cases(even though it's against their rules to some extent, LOL -- more later), it's because the use of a directional receive antenna (aimed at the desired signal in every case) is assumed .....

Another, probably unlikely possibility could be a change in the emission masks (or adaptive pre-corrections sent to their exciter) from those stations - WRGT did have a temporary issue many years ago for a time with the adapative precorrections they were sending to their exciter(a computer needed "rebooting") at one point, although I haven't seen any indication of any change here in that(unlike was the case on the previous occasion when I contacted them about it) .... Paul210 in Dayton(North of Dayton, has to shoot through WRGT's stick to aim antenna at WXIX - and that's where the biggest problems with WXIX/WRGT on 1st adajcent channels and the spacing involved lies) particularly had issues with WXIX or WKRC reception during that time ....

Unlike is the case with analog, 1st adajcent channel operation of DTV stations can work very well if the stations are co-located, or nearly so ... Not so well if they aren't ... In fact, WXIX/WRGT spacing(about 44 Miles or so apart) violates FCC rules for stations applying for channel changes, or for new stations, BUT they're allowed to opearate on 1st adjacent channels(at least with the antenna patterns they are using) because those allocations were their original allotments from FCC .... And basically, FCC "bent" the rules for the DTV table of allotments so they could fit all the stations in during the transition, and since WRGT/WXIX both elected to stay where they were during the channel election process, they were "grandfathered" so to speak ... There are other examples of where this sort of thing happened elsewhere as well .....

Nitewatchman

07-16-09, 04:55 PM

I take it the knob is a high point in local terrain, and is the site for a "tower farm", as they're often described?

That's it, and yes it's the one near Louisville ...

The (1864') tower previously used by WAVE 3 analog is in a Different location, A bit E of Louisville and closer to Cincinnati .....

Update : Oh --- Co-locating the transmit locations as much as possible is a good idea(especially for DTV in regards to issues such as multipath uncorrectable by receiver) , for several reasons, one being so that the viewer's receive antenna only needs to be aimed in one direction to receive the stations for a particular market ... Another good reason for it when 1st adjacent channel allocations are involved is spectrum efficiency, as 1st adjacent channel co-located(or nearly so) DTV stations work very well, especially when the signal levels being transmitted are somewhat similar ....

Nitewatchman

07-16-09, 05:10 PM

Can someone please assist again like you did for me with WLWT and see if there is a problem since I don't have that program???

I've seen what have appeared to be some minor occasional "glitches" in WCPO's video stream (for 9.1) recently, but I haven't had a chance to look for any possible encoding errors (or other errors in their TS) with various diagnostic software ....

It's a bit difficult for me to effectively check their stream for such errors, as the DTV receiver I use on PC seems to be poorly shielded, and any little bit of a electrical/impulse noise spike will cause glitches/errors for VHF stations, or Weaker UHF stations -- which are Glitches on MY end vs. other receivers where such glitches don't usually simultanously occur ....

ncincy1

07-16-09, 05:39 PM

After reading the longer post, THIS particular ending line created an obvious question in my troubled mind -- WHERE (and WHAT) is Floyd's Knob?

Oddly enough, I found evidence of TWO in Indiana -- one NE of Indianapolis, and another in Floyd County, NW of Louisville. The latter one seems to be the location for broadcast towers of several Louisville stations. Love that local flavor -- I take it the knob is a high point in local terrain, and is the site for a "tower farm", as they're often described?

Another random, but real, place name I've heard: Booger Hole, WV. No broadcast towers there, unfortunately. :D

Yeah, you are correct. Most of the Louisville market towers are located in Indiana (taller hills to broadcast from than in Ky)..

BTW: Broadcast towers for Huntington-Charleston WV. market are mainly located on Barker's Ridge (Northeast Cabell County). Stations located there are:
-WSAZ (NBC) Channel 3
-WOWK (CBS) Channel 13
-WQCW (CW) Channel 30
-WPBY (PBS) Channel 33

The other stations in the market are located near St. Albans WV. on Coal Mountain.
-WCHS (ABC) Channel 8
-WVAH (FOX) Channel 11
-WLPX (ION) Channel 29

Not quite as exciting as "Booger Hole" WV. :D

Nitewatchman

07-16-09, 06:40 PM

(In such post, by the way, I did quote Mr. Block directly FROM THIS FORUM.)

I hope you had his permission to do so ...

You might want to read AVSforum rules here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/rules.html

Particularly perhaps this part :

..... No material contained in this site may be republished or reposted without express written consent of the AV Science, Inc., except that message board users retain the right to republish or repost their own work.

By the way, regarding some of the "discussion" on your blog relating to Elliot's comments about W36DG ...

W20CL Springfield has a CP (construction permit from FCC) for digital companion channel on 24 ... The Callsign is W24DG-D --- Doesn't mean they will (or won't) use it ...

wkrp

07-16-09, 07:00 PM

[QUOTE=Nitewatchman;16835551]

As mentioned in a previous message, WOTH filed (Actually You filed - Section III - Preparer's certifcation" has your Name address and email address on it at least) a displacement application with FCC for channel 19 for WOTH analog on 6/22/09, here is link to the application itself from FCC's CDBS :

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101317887&formid=346&fac_num=19432

Hence some of the "speculation", although I believe some here seem to be confusing things a bit. The speculation involved discussion/speculation concerning why that displacement app may have been filed(one might also wonder why WOTH waited until very recently to file for remain silent authority for WOTH analog, although I believe it has apparently been off air for several months) , and/or speculation involving what MIGHT potentially happen should the displacement app for 19 be granted by FCC ....
============
Jeff,
This is directed to you,
You have a lot of facts BUT, you left out some inportant ones,
1. read the app. for WOTH-LP in reguards to WBDT on channel 26.

2. We applyed for an STA, here is part of the text:
"THE WOTH-LP ANTENNA HAS BEEN MOVED LOWER ON THE TOWER TO MAKE ROOM FOR THE RECENTLY INSTALLED WOTH-LD ANTENNA. A PERMANENT AUTHORIZATION IS NOT BEING REQUESTED AT THIS TIME, BECAUSE IT IS ANTICIPATED THAT WOTH-LP WILL BE DISPLACED IN TWO MONTHS WHEN A FULL POWER STATION COMMENCES HIGH POWERED DIGITAL OPERATION ON AN ADJACENT CHANNEL. A SIX-MONTH STA IS REQUESTED TO ALLOW TIME TO EVALUATE THE SITUATION IN FEBRUARY OF 2009, TO DETERMINE WHETHER A PERMANENT CHANGE IS APPROPRIATE ON CHANNEL 25 OR A DISPLACEMENT APPLICATION WILL BE REQUIRED".

3. When the STA ran out, we went dark and applyed to do so, witch was granted June 12, 2009.

4. Now it in the FCC hands.

5. As you might know, an analog and digital stations can be co-channel on the same tower. (WCPO 9 and WCPO-DT 10)

Elliott

Nitewatchman

07-16-09, 07:43 PM

Jeff,
This is directed to you,
You have a lot of facts BUT, you left out some inportant ones ...

I don't believe so, other than the details involving the 5.7KW ERP STA for WOTH 25 analog.

Please Read our earlier discussion from near end of june and my comments which I posted in this thread on the issue a couple of weeks ago, I did not see a reason to repeat all of that discussion ....

Update: I'll make it real easy -- Here are direct links to my posts from that particular discussion :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16722355&highlight=#post16722355

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16727801#post16727801

1. read the app. for WOTH-LP in reguards to WBDT on channel 26.

I did, which I believe is obvious if you read the earlier posts/discussion .... (again I saw./see no reason to repeat my comments from those posts) ....

2. We applyed for an STA, here is part of the text:
"THE WOTH-LP ANTENNA HAS BEEN MOVED LOWER ON THE TOWER TO MAKE ROOM FOR THE RECENTLY INSTALLED WOTH-LD ANTENNA. A PERMANENT AUTHORIZATION IS NOT BEING REQUESTED AT THIS TIME, BECAUSE IT IS ANTICIPATED THAT WOTH-LP WILL BE DISPLACED IN TWO MONTHS WHEN A FULL POWER STATION COMMENCES HIGH POWERED DIGITAL OPERATION ON AN ADJACENT CHANNEL. A SIX-MONTH STA IS REQUESTED TO ALLOW TIME TO EVALUATE THE SITUATION IN FEBRUARY OF 2009, TO DETERMINE WHETHER A PERMANENT CHANGE IS APPROPRIATE ON CHANNEL 25 OR A DISPLACEMENT APPLICATION WILL BE REQUIRED".

Yes, I've read the (earlier) STA app (5.7 KW ERP, for lower on the tower) as well, and received WOTH analog here, presumably via the facilities specified in the STA in between Nov and about jan 09 or so, but Not after that .... After that, I believe WOTH 25 analog was off air ....

3. When the STA ran out, we went dark and applyed to do so, witch was granted June 12, 2009.

This STA(link to the STA application), filed for on 12/1/08, and Granted by FCC on 12/16/08, With a expiration date of 6/16/09 :

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1282209&Service=TX&Form_id=911&Facility_id=19432

Update : Oh, and the link to some additional info on above STA :

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_det.pl?Application_id=1282209

:end update

Also, The record available on FCC site in CDBS indicates the status date of "granted" for remain silent authority was July 7, 2009, however, as you say and I agree, it would have been 'effective' on June 12, 2009 ....

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_det.pl?Application_id=1317885

Here is the actual Notification of suspension of Operations form/Request for Silent STA which you filed the filing date is indicated as 6/22/2009 :

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101317885&formid=910&fac_num=19432

So, I suppose I DO have a question now, given you want to discuss the details of this issue "directly" .... The question I have , then is ... Are you saying WOTH Analog 25 was actually On the air UNTIL June 12, 2009 ????? : update for clairification's sake - Specifically, I mean With the Facilities specified in the STA, and between December and June 12? ... If so, what changed in Early 2009 ???? (Sometime in Either Jan or Feb, I don't recall exactly when WOTH analog disappeared completely here, as well as per others reports on this thread, but it was sometime in Jan or Feb as I recall ...) ...

4. Now it in the FCC hands.

Absoutely, exactly what I was saying ....

5. As you might know, an analog and digital stations can be co-channel on the same tower. (WCPO 9 and WCPO-DT 10)

Certianly ... And where did you see that I took any issue with that ????
Again, please read the discussion a couple of weeks ago ....

You have filed for a Displacement app for channel 19 for WOTH-LP analog 25 (because of displacement from 1st adjacent WBDT on 26), and if it is granted(as I commented on in earlier post), you *could* operate WOTH analog on 19, and and some point, you *could* also flash cut to digital on 19 ....

No reason why WOTH analog or digital and (if you use the digital companion channel for WBQC rather than flash cutting to digital on 38) WBQC 20 couldn't operate there .... Hence the point of some of our discussion on the matter ....

Now, at the same time --- You've said here and elsewhere that "WOTH analog" is gone ... So, yes, unless you are doing so for legal reasons/etc(or because FCC advised you to do so or for whatever reason) it's "interesting" that you've filed a displacement app for it for 19 when your comments seem to suggest it (analog signal from WOTH) is not coming back, and that you've also said that you have no plans to move the digital off 47 ....

Nitewatchman

07-16-09, 11:41 PM

I was going to PM this, given I've addressed "the facts" of interest in my first response, above --- but thought it a better idea to post it here as an additional response ...

Jeff,
This is directed to you,You have a lot of facts BUT, you left out some inportant ones,

I believe we have a misunderstanding here, I was afraid this might happen ....

To be clear, MY comments in the post you are responding to with above comments were NOT DIRECTED AT YOU, nor were they meant to condtridict or discredit what you said -- Furthermore --- It's not personal --- and Of course, you know what your(WOTH/WBQC) plans are/what you're going to do ... I do understand WHY you, or others might have read it in a way other than as it was intended, and I do apologize that I could not figure out a way to format that post in such a way it would have been obvious It was not intended to contridict or discredit any of your comments ...

Instead, my comments in That post were intended to back up what I had previously posted about the WOTH channel 19 displacement app. I don't believe you will find inaccurate, misleading, nor a lack of "important missing" information In any of my posts on this issue(If you do, I'd be THANKING you for the correction, regardless of how much crow I'd have to eat), nor for that matter were my comments "speculative" regarding what WOTH was going to do, I know better than that ... Instead, they detailed what I'm aware of that WOTH COULD potentially do (besides nothing) if FCC granted the displacement app .... Big difference ...

I also don't believe the info on the STA which I had read many months ago and was fully aware of since you filed for it in December, but didn't address in any of my recent posts(including 2 weeks ago - which out of the 5 "points" you made would only involve the STA) were important regarding the issue which is of interest to folks ...

The reason for the displacement app (WBDT digital on 26 post-transition), and the STA for 25, and that WOTH 25 analog is gone are water under the bridge, as they were when WOTH filed for the displacement app ...

What WOTH will or will not do in the future should the displacement app be granted(or not) is not water under the bridge, and, I believe is the issue of interest to folks .... While you have already answered that question for WOTH digital(staying on 47 with digital) --- Nevertheless, it's not "OK" with me for others, purposely or accidently -- to discredit, or attempt to discredit or mis-represent as uninformed "speculation" the entirely accurate information I had previously posted regarding what WOTH *COULD* potentially do if FCC granted the displacement app .... Nor does it explain (not that it matters, really) WHY the displacement app was filed after all that water had already went under the bridge ....

ngarrang

07-17-09, 12:57 PM

Here is a link to my TV Fool results:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d74fa16a4a4222f

I know I would get best results for Dayton stations if I pointed my antenna that way, but Cinci offers more channel offerings. And from what I've researched about ganging two antennae pointed in different directions, you have to get a lot of things right like wavelength distance separation, length of the cables, possible interference from reflections, etc.

As it stands now, with a single DB4 pointed at Cinci, I am only missing out on 7, 22, 25 and 45 digitals. 54 was always a crap shoot for me, anywho.

I am researching what I would need to do to gang a second DB4, or maybe making a DB4 based on mclapp's design using 10" whiskers (which would be bigger than my current DB4's whiskers).

Nitewatchman

07-17-09, 06:32 PM

Here is a link to my TV Fool results:
[B]http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d74fa16a4a4222f

sounds like you've already got a good handle on it, so not sure how much this is going to help, but here goes anyway :

Terrain obstructions appear to be a significant issue for you, especially for WOTH, WCVN and a couple of The Dayton stations ....

However ... per the prediction -- chances look good you should be able to get everything in Dayton+Cincinnati reliably (including WOTH/WCVN) with the "right" antenna setup, with of course the correct antenna aiming for Cincinnati or Dayton, as already discussed .... For the weakest predicted stations especially (WCVN/WOTH) The more gain you have at antenna the better, and probably the higher you get it the better ... An amp might be a good idea as well to recover losses from splitting and losses in Coax ... However -- be very careful there(you might not want to get anything too "high gain"), as WKOI is VERY strong and only 1.7 miles away --- But, of course, directional antenna aimed at Cincy should reject a good amount of signal from WKOI(not with it aimed at Dayton, though, It'll be aimed pretty much as WKOI as well), and given you only have one REALLY strong signal, perhaps you won't have too much of a problem if you choose the right amp ....

And from what I've researched about ganging two antennae pointed in different directions, you have to get a lot of things right like wavelength distance separation, length of the cables, possible interference from reflections, etc.

Except for the last one -- Which IS one of the biggest problems involved as I mentioned in my last post ---- All of The rest of those things are only applicable if you are properly stacking antennas into an array - Which is identical antennas "ganged" together and aimed in same direction to increase gain and directivity ...

Unfortunetly, There's a lot of incorrect information out there about such issues ....

There's really no "right way" to combine broadband (VHF/UHF or UHF only or whatever) antennas together(other than involving seperate antennas for VHF and UHF/etc) to aim them in different directions .... When you do that, you are making something somewhat similar to what is called a "random wire" antenna -- it doesn't matter if the lengths of feedline from combiner to one antenna or another are different, or what the seperation between the antennas aimed in different directions are, other than using the general rule of keeping them at least 1/2 wavelength apart(1 wavelength, even better, but not usually necessary) when mounted vertically(such as on a mast) at the lowest frequency your going to use .....

You can try it, it might work OK - a number of folks have had it work just fine with DTV -- Which in some cases can be a little more forgiving for issues like these vs. Analog (unless you like things like "ghosts") ... Especially perhaps if the desired stations are spaced about 180 degrees apart ... But, That being said --- chances are also good it will not be suitable in a long-term "reliable reception" sense, and chances are good that you'll get issues with certian channels/stations at certian times (due to issues such as multipath - those "reflections" you mentioned ) .....

Back in the 70's, they did make antenna for situations like these -- Around here, they were called "Cincinnati-Dayton Special" ... They consisted of 2 antennas, you combined them together, mounted them(vertically) about 5 feet apart, and aimed one towards Cincinnati, the other towards Dayton ---- The Dayton antenna was specifically designed for Reception of Dayton stations on channels 2,7,16,22, the other Was for cincinnati, specifically designed for reception of 5,9,12,19,48 .... You'll still see some on rooftops every now and then --- They were "channel specific" antennas, the elements were cut specifically for those specific channels(that's why the combining worked well for them) and wouldn't work so well on the new channels many of the stations in Area are broadcasting on ....

Splicer010

07-17-09, 07:08 PM

Anyone want to take me up on doing a TS report on my WCPO audio dropouts???

ncincy1

07-17-09, 08:38 PM

Back in the 70's, they did make antenna for situations like these -- Around here, they were called "Cincinnati-Dayton Special" ... They consisted of 2 antennas, you combined them together, mounted them(vertically) about 5 feet apart, and aimed one towards Cincinnati, the other towards Dayton ---- The Dayton antenna was specifically designed for Reception of Dayton stations on channels 2,7,16,22, the other Was for cincinnati, specifically designed for reception of 5,9,12,19,48 .... You'll still see some on rooftops every now and then --- They were "channel specific" antennas, the elements were cut specifically for those specific channels(that's why the combining worked well for them) and wouldn't work so well on the new channels many of the stations in Area are broadcasting on ....

Yes. Back in West Virginia (Huntington-Charleston) we had a similar antenna. One for reception of WSAZ channel 3 and the other for WHTN (now, WOWK) channel 13 and WCHS channel 8.

Ah, the days of 3 network stations and no cable!

Was it really that long ago? :)

ncincy1

07-17-09, 08:48 PM

Saw on WHIO Channel 7 news tonight an interview with the Chief Engineer (Eastman) talking about installation of the new digital antenna.

According to the news report, the new antenna should be fully operational no later than August 1st.

The story goes on to say reception to the south and west should improve significantly.

You guys in Hamilton, Oxford and Western Hamilton County should be pleasantly surprised. BTW: That is some tall tower - over 1100'.

Stay tuned.

ThoraX695

07-17-09, 09:13 PM

Back in the 70's, they did make antenna for situations like these -- Around here, they were called "Cincinnati-Dayton Special" ... They consisted of 2 antennas, you combined them together, mounted them(vertically) about 5 feet apart, and aimed one towards Cincinnati, the other towards Dayton ---- The Dayton antenna was specifically designed for Reception of Dayton stations on channels 2,7,16,22, the other Was for cincinnati, specifically designed for reception of 5,9,12,19,48 .... You'll still see some on rooftops every now and then --- They were "channel specific" antennas, the elements were cut specifically for those specific channels(that's why the combining worked well for them) and wouldn't work so well on the new channels many of the stations in Area are broadcasting on ....

With the current technology and resurgence of home brew antennas, I wonder how long it will take for someone to construct one for the digital channels. The Dayton one would be pretty simple. :)

voyager6

07-17-09, 10:04 PM

With the current technology and resurgence of home brew antennas, I wonder how long it will take for someone to construct one for the digital channels. The Dayton one would be pretty simple. :)

There used to be the Channel Master join-tennas, used to join just one specific channel from a second antenna into the signal from a main antenna pointed elsewhere. Some vendors may still have a few, but I believe they are discontinued. In 2003, I purchased one for channels 7, 16, 22, 26, and 44 (I re-tuned 44 for 45 as the ch45 jointenna was not available at that time) but never used them. If you have to daisy chain more than two or three, you would get a considerable signal loss.

They would filter the channel out of the main antenna and add in the signal from the second antenna to theoretically knock out reflections and competing signals. They didn't use a very sharp filter, so there was a filter effect into the next two to three adjacent channels.

I was going to use them to knock down the Dayton signals by terminating the second antenna input so I could run high gain and not overload my TV's tuner.

emery_r

07-17-09, 10:11 PM

Yes. Back in West Virginia (Huntington-Charleston) we had a similar antenna. One for reception of WSAZ channel 3 and the other for WHTN (now, WOWK) channel 13 and WCHS channel 8.

Ah, the days of 3 network stations and no cable!

Was it really that long ago? :)

:rolleyes: You got that right -- my sons, both in their mid-20s, can't really relate to MY life growing up in a little town just north of Dayton in Miami County. Before WKEF-22 came along in 1964, we "survived" happily with only two stations in Dayton, WHIO and WLWD (now WDTN, of course), plus a couple of fuzzy distant stations from Cincinnati and Columbus that usually came in.

And now, with around 40 digital OTA channels and heaven knows how many on TW Cable, I still complain often that there's nothing on I want to watch... :p

emery_r

07-17-09, 11:26 PM

(also posted on the Dayton thread) The following brief video report is now on WHIO's website, and shows the new permanent digital antenna to be installed atop their tower, as well as the old temporary one side-mounted lower down. I think it's pretty new (might even be from today), since the reporter predicts "10 days to two weeks" for completion, which agrees well with the info ncincy1 provided earlier today.

http://www.whiotv.com/video/20090747/index.html

Bluestraw

07-18-09, 12:45 PM

Anyone want to take me up on doing a TS report on my WCPO audio dropouts???Been offline a while, so only just noticed this. I'll cap WCPO for a couple of hours tonight and run the diagnostics. The engineering staff at WCPO have always been helpful in the past, so I'll see what I get and shoot an email off if I find some useful info in the log...

Splicer010

07-18-09, 12:57 PM

Been offline a while, so only just noticed this. I'll cap WCPO for a couple of hours tonight and run the diagnostics. The engineering staff at WCPO have always been helpful in the past, so I'll see what I get and shoot an email off if I find some useful info in the log...

I'd certainly appreciate it...:)

emery_r

07-19-09, 12:35 AM

Alert for our friends at Block Broadcasting -- RTV's sound on 25.3 has been out of sync all evening long. People's mouths move, but their voices follow about a half second or more later. :(

Any clue what's going on? Is it an RTV problem, or something local? :confused:

Thanks!

Splicer010

07-19-09, 10:00 AM

No lip sync problem here that I see/hear...;)

emery_r

07-19-09, 10:31 AM

No lip sync problem here that I see/hear...;)

...but there was a lip sync problem all last evening. I first noticed it around 8 PM, then periodically checked until around 1 AM. Believe me, it WAS there, but only on RTV/25.3, not any of their other three channels.

Everything does seem to be fine this morning, so somebody somewhere hit the re-boot button...

Splicer010

07-19-09, 10:37 AM

Audio dropouts VERY bad this morning WCPO...

Nitewatchman

07-19-09, 11:19 AM

There used to be the Channel Master join-tennas, used to join just one specific channel from a second antenna into the signal from a main antenna pointed elsewhere. Some vendors may still have a few, but I believe they are discontinued. In 2003, I purchased one for channels 7, 16, 22, 26, and 44 (I re-tuned 44 for 45 as the ch45 jointenna was not available at that time) but never used them. If you have to daisy chain more than two or three, you would get a considerable signal loss.

They would filter the channel out of the main antenna and add in the signal from the second antenna to theoretically knock out reflections and competing signals. They didn't use a very sharp filter, so there was a filter effect into the next two to three adjacent channels.

I was going to use them to knock down the Dayton signals by terminating the second antenna input so I could run high gain and not overload my TV's tuner.

Jointennas would be difficult to implement in that situation because as you say, they effect several channels adjacent, ..... Particularly, the first adajcent channel, which would be an issue for WRGT on 30/ WXIX on 29/ etc .... and as you say, because of the insertion loss, and the multiple stations/channels involved ....

As far as a "new" version of a Channel specific Dayton/Cincy special antennas -- one problem is that stations move around on the dial more often now than was the case in the past (especially LP stations) .....

However, CEA'a "smartenna" interface, which is not supported by many receivers or antenna products is one solution that allows for the receiver to automatically adjust antenna for best results from any given station (including from any particular direction) ...... That only works well for One receiver hooked up to one antenna, however, not multiple receivers when you(or other family members) want to watch different stations via different receivers ....

So in most cases, Using a rotor, or seperate antennas on seperate feedlines with A/B switch before receiver is probably usually the best bet when the desired stations are in different directions .....

Bluestraw

07-19-09, 04:36 PM

I'd certainly appreciate it...:)'Bad' news I'm afraid. I capped 3 hours of WCPO on Saturday night, and got a 'perfect' log for my capture. I didn't watch any of it so I can't tell if there WERE any audible drops.

If you let me know a few shows you're planning to watch, I'm happy to capture them on the PC - and then if you find a dropout in one let me know and I'll run the log. It could be that the glitch is happening between the off-net reception and the re-encoding of the stream for broadcast, in which case it wouldn't always show in the log. In that case though, as long as we can find the clip I can send that off to WCPO for their checks.

jimp2244

07-20-09, 08:27 AM

The engineering staff at WCPO have always been helpful in the pastI seem to recall an extended period of time from the summer of 2004 to May of 2006, where WCPO had the infamous "jaggies" issue. I can't think of a more frustrating experience dealing with an engineering team than that. Many of us made a point to contact WCPO engineering and all we got for almost two years was a denial of the problem or a lack of ability to comprehend what we were telling them. I humorously (now anyway -- not so humorous then) remember telling an engineer at WCPO that if he couldn't see the problem, maybe he needed a new TV. :)

I'll agree that their engineering seems to be more responsive now, but I just took exception with the "always" part of your statement. :)

ncincy1

07-20-09, 08:37 AM

WKRC's "loss" in viewers since they switched to VHF will soon be WHIO's "gain" - if not already. People who can't receive their favorite CBS programs from Cincinnati will have a strong choice. No, I don't work for WHIO.

Next ratings period for Channel 7's southern/western viewing area should be interesting due to their new UHF "top mount" antenna.

Adding insult to injury, with WBDT's recent power increase - and offering CW programming in HD will not help the ratings for CinCW Local 12.2. That's a double-whammy from my perspective.

With these 2 markets so close together you would have thought WKRC would have planned their strategy in more detail.

Note: I did read somewhere that the decision to go from UHF to VHF was made long ago by Clear Channel before they sold the station. If that's accurate, then enough said.

Stay tuned!

jimp2244

07-20-09, 08:50 AM

ncincy1

07-20-09, 09:39 AM

I already replied to your similar post in the Dayton thread, but this is just silly. WHIO and WKRC have co-existed in close-proximity markets for many years. This is nothing new. I'm still perplexed to see what WKRC is "losing."

I understand and agree with the co-existence issue. Yes, it's nothing new.

What IS new is the fact that WKRC moving from digital UHF to digital VHF is causing some technical issues that did not occur with the analog signal.

The FCC maps tell the true picture in terms of signal coverage (WKRC vs. WHIO).

I guarantee that people with UHF antennas - will find WHIO more easy to locate and give up trying to move the antenna to get WKRC's VHF signal.

Case in point, here in Sharonville, I receive WKRC at 75% signal strength with the antenna aimed at Cincinnati. However, I receive WHIO at 95% signal strength.

My point is that I personally believe that UHF digital is easier to receive than VHF digital.

Time will tell....

jimp2244

07-20-09, 10:16 AM

What IS new is the fact that WKRC moving from digital UHF to digital VHF is causing some technical issues that did not occur with the analog signal.What issues? I haven't seen a flood of posts here with people having trouble with WKRC...

The FCC maps tell the true picture in terms of signal coverage (WKRC vs. WHIO).What exactly are you seeing that is of interest? WKRC and WHIO service areas have always overlapped like that such that WKRC's service area includes much of metro Dayton just as WHIO's includes much of metro Cincinnati. While we're looking at FCC maps, look at WKRC's map on channel 31 and compare it to channel 12... if anything they've made slight gains in service area.

I guarantee that people with UHF antennas - will find WHIO more easy to locate and give up trying to move the antenna to get WKRC's VHF signal.What about people with VHF antennas?

Case in point, here in Sharonville, I receive WKRC at 75% signal strength with the antenna aimed at Cincinnati. However, I receive WHIO at 95% signal strength.I, in Sharonville as well, receive WKRC at 100% on my signal quality meter (those meters, even though labeled "signal strength" do not measure "strength" they measure quality - the ease at which they can decode the stream).

My point is that I personally believe that UHF digital is easier to receive than VHF digital.I'm just trying to point out that your single, personal experience is not a large enough sample to put a blanket statement out there like that and assume everyone else's experience is the same.

Time will tell....If in 3 months it is a major big deal and WKRC is losing viewers left and right to WHIO, I will buy you a beer at the Blue Goose. :)

Bubster

07-20-09, 12:11 PM

But..... "losing or gaining viewers" IMO has always been a scam. The salespeople for the "ratings companies" are truly geniuses.

Bluestraw

07-20-09, 02:42 PM

I seem to recall an extended period of time from the summer of 2004 to May of 2006, where WCPO had the infamous "jaggies" issue. I can't think of a more frustrating experience dealing with an engineering team than that. Many of us made a point to contact WCPO engineering and all we got for almost two years was a denial of the problem or a lack of ability to comprehend what we were telling them. I humorously (now anyway -- not so humorous then) remember telling an engineer at WCPO that if he couldn't see the problem, maybe he needed a new TV. :)

I'll agree that their engineering seems to be more responsive now, but I just took exception with the "always" part of your statement. :)Fair point - I should have said 'I've alwasys found them helpful'. Lucky for me, I wasn't involved back then and the guys who work there now seem good...

voyager6

07-20-09, 08:10 PM

What issues? I haven't seen a flood of posts here with people having trouble with WKRC...

What exactly are you seeing that is of interest? WKRC and WHIO service areas have always overlapped like that such that WKRC's service area includes much of metro Dayton just as WHIO's includes much of metro Cincinnati. While we're looking at FCC maps, look at WKRC's map on channel 31 and compare it to channel 12... if anything they've made slight gains in service area.

What about people with VHF antennas?

I, in Sharonville as well, receive WKRC at 100% on my signal quality meter (those meters, even though labeled "signal strength" do not measure "strength" they measure quality - the ease at which they can decode the stream).

I'm just trying to point out that your single, personal experience is not a large enough sample to put a blanket statement out there like that and assume everyone else's experience is the same.

If in 3 months it is a major big deal and WKRC is losing viewers left and right to WHIO, I will buy you a beer at the Blue Goose. :)

My $0.02....

UHF travels through walls easier, I believe. So people with rabbit ears will have more difficulty in picking up WKRC. They may, especially after the antenna change, still get WHIO with the UHF loop portion. I suspect that this is where WKRC may lose viewers.

Of course, I have been very vocal about the weakness of WKRC on channel 12 just north of I-70. Granted I am fringe, but I had no difficultly when WKRC was on 31, and had initial difficulty after they moved to 12.

My office co-worker's mother lives near Galbraith Road and she lost both WCPO and WKRC after the transition. She paid someone to come out to her house and he repointed her fixed rooftop antenna and ran new cable inside the house. Now her mom gets both WCPO and WKRC just fine.

I can ask the question, how many people are going to pay someone to fix their antenna, or put up a new one in this economy? I imagine that a lot of senior citizens who 'lost' WKRC will do nothing IF they can get WHIO. They will watch another Cincinnati channel for news and watch WHIO for network shows.

The next full sweeps (November?) will tell the tale. By then, the majority of viewers who may have lost WKRC will have made an effort to get it back. Those who haven't gotten it back probably won't make the effort.

Given satellite and cable probably cover 80 percent of the viewers, a 15 percent loss in OTA viewers will only result in a very slight ratings drop (3%).

The FCC charts are an aproximation. I can get WOTH-DT 90+ percent of the time. FCC map says that reception north should stop in south Miamisburg, 15 miles south of me. The map of WKRC on 12 shows an ever so slightly further range where I live, but it is very difficult to obtain. I could say the Columbus stations are generally received better than the FCC map predicts.

The last thing that I would ask the engineers here, WKRC reused their analog antenna, No? Is this optimized for digital transmission? I mean analog TV has power behind the video and audio carriers, whereas digital puts power behind the whole band equally. Could this be robbing them of a few watts in effective radiated power?

I have trouble with WHIO staying stable. I cannot watch WHIO for more than two hours without signal drifting away and pixelizing, causing me to have to rotate the antenna to find a new stable position. I have relied on WKRC for the last three years to get bengals games in HD as their UHF signal was very stable at my location. I certainly hope the new antenna fixes the issue and then I won't care about WKRC anymore. Actually, I get WHIO HD via DirecTV, so that issue is kinda moot, although OTA picture quality is slightly better.

Barkhausen

07-20-09, 10:33 PM

Jeez.....Leave WKRC alone. I live about 48 miles south of Cincinnati and the 17+ year old VHF antenna I watched for years is still running rock solid 98's 24/7. 12 is as reliable as it has always been and if folks would just spend the equivalent of a few months of cable service on a decent antenna, they should have no problem with reception. To be sure, there will be exceptions but my wife's grandparents lived in Florence 25 years ago and even they had up a small outdoor antenna to watch the locals to keep the ghosting down! In fact, I'm getting high 80's on WKRC and WCPO on the unamplified UHF antenna I have pointed toward Cincinnati, so when the old V finally falls apart in about 10 years, I guess I'm already ready!

dtv insider

07-21-09, 08:09 AM

My $0.02....

The last thing that I would ask the engineers here, WKRC reused their analog antenna, No? Is this optimized for digital transmission? I mean analog TV has power behind the video and audio carriers, whereas digital puts power behind the whole band equally. Could this be robbing them of a few watts in effective radiated power?

If the antenna is in good shape no problem. R-F is R-F ! 20 year antenna (if it is in good shape) will work has good has a new antenna.

ngarrang

07-21-09, 09:15 AM

I think the only "problem" per se with the whole VHF thing is that there is a goodly number of us that never had an antenna in the first place. This current economy has forced some of us to cancel our cable and satellite subscriptions and look at antenna options.

In this case, when you can mount up a $35 DB4 instead of a $135 VHF/UHF LPDA/Yagi monster thing...well, if you were already on a budget...guess which one the person is going to buy? So then for the VHF channels, it becomes luck for them if the UHF antenna can kinda receive the hi-vhf channels.

But as it is, someone like me is having to go bigger antenna so I can better receive the lower power stations like Channel 25.

Bubster

07-21-09, 03:24 PM

ngarrang, the good points you make has me wondering why a television station would even consider using any VHF?

ncincy1

07-21-09, 04:02 PM

ngarrang, the good points you make has me wondering why a television station would even consider using any VHF?

That's really the ONLY point I was trying to make in my original perspective yesterday morning.

WHIO is UHF / WKRC is VHF both with CBS programming. WHIO will soon have a "killer signal".

For folks in the northern Cincinnati suburbs - without rooftop UHF/VHF combination antennas only time will tell which station is easier to recieve.

I still stand by my personal thoughts/observations that UHF is the better, overall choice in the "digital" world.

However, I also know that there are many technical factors - too numerous to mention - that effect DTV.

It should be interesting once the dust settles and reports begin to surface on reception gains/losses - not just in Cincy/Dayton, but all over the country.

Note: Still looking forward to a beer or two at the Blue Goose - no matter who pays.

Thanks.

Jack

emery_r

07-21-09, 09:55 PM

That's really the ONLY point I was trying to make in my original perspective yesterday morning.

WHIO is UHF / WKRC is VHF both with CBS programming. WHIO will soon have a "killer signal".

For folks in the northern Cincinnati suburbs - without rooftop UHF/VHF combination antennas only time will tell which station is easier to recieve.

I still stand by my personal thoughts/observations that UHF is the better, overall choice in the "digital" world.

However, I also know that there are many technical factors - too numerous to mention - that effect DTV.

It should be interesting once the dust settles and reports begin to surface on reception gains/losses - not just in Cincy/Dayton, but all over the country.

Note: Still looking forward to a beer or two at the Blue Goose - no matter who pays.

Thanks.

Jack

Don't know how familiar people on this board are with it, but Freb Vobbe's engineering log for Lima OH's WLIO (www.wlio.net) is one of the more interesting sites of its kind. Mr. Vobbe has been quite vocal about WLIO's preference all along for VHF, given its local geography, etc. I wouldn't begin to try to quote him, but he's had many great insights into the "VHF/UHF debate", as well as the trials and tribulations of proper antennas for DTV reception.

So for what it's worth, he thinks VHF had more merit for WLIO than UHF!

ngarrang

07-21-09, 10:23 PM

Tonight must be a good night for me...I am receiving Channel 54, WKET. Yay atmospheric conditions!

Nitewatchman

07-22-09, 12:10 AM

Fred Vobbe's WLIO DTV site is excellent indeed ... I'd sent him a DX report when I first logged their DTV station, he QSL'ed back with some neat stuff via snail mail, and also sent a URL to some neat pics of the installation of their Channel 8 antenna/tower work and their (at the time) New Transmitter for DTV ... Those may be up somewhere on the site now, I'm not sure ....

Anyway --- As for indoor antennas here and VHF ....

WKRC and WCPO (Concerning WCPO -- only since the increase in antenna height/change to CP) come in fine here on rabbit ears from 32 Miles North(Between Middletown+Germantown) on the kitchen TV .... Cincinnati and Most of the house - including 5 walls are to the south ...

All in all, they decode more reliably than most of the UHF stations (Using UHF Loop) on this setup -- Even stronger Dayton signals(There's only 1 wall or a window in that direction) .... Any time a Bird Sneezes, Tree limbs are blown around in the wind/ or someone walks up the sidewalk/etc most of those break up quite a bit, especially on the upper UHF channels such that at times they are unwatchable ... "dropouts" on WKRC/WCPO have been pretty rare ...

Attached are pics of the VHF antenna/Zenith DTT901, and the TV with UHF loop on top -- the "folded down" Rabbit ears on the base with the UHF loop aren't used .... A VHF/UHF combiner off an early 80's Zenith TV, and a 10dB Gain RCA "digital Plus" amp(NF may be lower than the Receiver's, in any case for whatever reason it helps) I picked up in a bargin bin at Meijer for $4 are also used .... Sorry for the poor quality/blurry pics -- Believe it or not, WCPO 9.1 is on screen in the TV pic .... should have used a flash/shorter exposure time or a tripod ;)

Splicer010

07-22-09, 12:18 PM

I picked up FOX 56 and PBS 52 and CW 34 today when I did a rescan...Gone now but cool while I had them... ;)

As for which programs I watch on WCPO...there is nothing in particular...Usually though it is primetime...

jimp2244

07-22-09, 02:04 PM

Splicer010

07-22-09, 02:11 PM

Are you still noticing the problem?

Yes...After posting my last message I turned on the 2nd half of the afternoon news and the audio dropouts occured again...

Nitewatchman

07-22-09, 09:35 PM

splicer010,

FWIW, I've been monitoring WCPO or WKRC's TS with TSreader for lengthy periods at various times* the past few days, and I haven't noticed any errors from WCPO with it. WKRC TS has frequent discontinuities in their EIT streams, but that's something that's been going on a long time, and shouldn't effect Video or Audio ....

* -- While making (hopefully) some improvements on RF shielding issue (and probably impedance mismatch issue) I've been having with PC tuner card --- as it turns out, it seems to involve various components in attic used for Trapping out FM signals, and the Winegard CA-8800 TV/FM band seperator ..... Take any FM traps or the CA-8800 out of line --- No errors due to most impulse noise spikes --- What is especially odd too, is that it wasn't much of an issue until After WLWT analog went off air ....

-------------------------------

Anyway --- I've only done a couple of short caps that I ran through Mpeg2repair or TSpacket editor --- Generally, most, but not all errors found by those would also show up as TEI or continuity errors in TSreader .... --- Update: Also -- as Bluestraw noted -- Issues occuring before WCPO's encoders wouldn't show up/wouldn't be found by these tools at all, but may very well be noticed by the viewer ... I haven't watched much from WCPO lately besides bits of their Local News, Jeopardy and The Late Saturday night airings of Star Trek:TOS (via HD DVR), but again, FWIW, I haven't noticed any issues lately .... A few times between 1~3 weeks ago, I did notice some minor corruption in some of the video during local news or promos inserted during commercial breaks, but didn't notice any issues with the audio ...

Attached is info for WCPO from about 7:23pm~9:25 PM Tonight(Wed)... As you can see, there are no errors reported ... Errors which it does report (such as Continuity or TEI errors) can also be caused on the receive end if SNR drops below threshold for whatever reason - Thus, (unless the errors allways only effect certain specific stream - such as WKRC having discontinuities ONLY in their EIT's) why it is difficult to tell where most errors are occuring(transmit end or receive end) unless you compare M2R logs with others and spot issues that occur at the same time at multiple receive sites ...

dtv insider

07-23-09, 03:14 PM

Update on WHIO antena work.

Saw what looks like the gin pole on top of the tower, but the old antenna is still in place.(7-22-09 6 p.m.)

Splicer010

07-23-09, 03:50 PM

Thanks Jeff...This is very odd as the WCPO audio symptoms are the same as the WLWT audio symptoms were...Even more odd is that since the new antenna was put up the problem has increased in frequency...

Is anyone else in this thread running a LG 3510a using its ATSC tuner or am I the only one??? I remember being told that I was crazy about WLWT issue and I went crazy changing/buying antennas and tweaking orientation of the antennas on the roof only to have the same problem when it was finally discovered that there was indeed an issue at WLWT that wasn't noticeable but was finally tracked down...I am not in the position right now to go playing on the roof with the antennas and seriously doubt that is the problem anyway...

voyager6

07-23-09, 06:34 PM

Splicer010

07-23-09, 06:55 PM

At least I know I'm not alone...Misery loves company...;)

I doubt VERY MUCH that your Pio and my LG use the same chipset and as such enforces what I believe to be an issue on WCPO's side...Now just to find out what the problem is...

Trip in VA

07-24-09, 12:17 AM

WCPO has requested to increase power from 19 kW to 28 kW.

- Trip

blbrodbeck

07-24-09, 12:21 PM

WCPO has requested to increase power from 19 kW to 28 kW.

- Trip

I sure hope it's approved. I have a harder time getting them now than I did before the Antenna Switch. I live in NW Hamilton Co. near Northgate, not too far from Cincinnati city limits. They should be easy to receive out here.

voyager6

07-24-09, 01:24 PM

WCPO has requested to increase power from 19 kW to 28 kW.

- Trip

Very good news... If the FCC approves it.

ThoraX695

07-24-09, 05:47 PM

WCPO has requested to increase power from 19 kW to 28 kW.

So if I'm doing the math correctly, a 9kW bump is an increase of 9.5dB?

Trip in VA

07-24-09, 05:54 PM

1.68 dB.

- Trip

ThoraX695

07-24-09, 06:07 PM

1.68 dB

28kW/19kW = 1.47 gain factor = 1.68 dB

Oops... thanks! :o

Trip in VA

07-24-09, 06:10 PM

No worries. :)

I actually have a nifty calculator for it on my website. It's the bottom calculator on this page: http://www.rabbitears.info/calc.php

- Trip

biggblukat

07-24-09, 09:09 PM

microbob

07-24-09, 09:46 PM

I live in Union, KY. Ever since WCPO put up the new antenna, I've nothing but drop outs on my Phillips and my Wife's Vizio.

It's 9:00 here now and I get nothing. zilch. I checked the radar on 5.2 to see if there was a storm to the North causing dropouts (usually reason if we have any problems) and sky looks clear.

9.1 used to be my strongest channel, with 64.1 giving me the fits, now 9.1 has become the worst, while others are as strong as I would ever expect.

Hope they work the bugs out soon.

I live in Grant County KY and I have no problems with WCPO. Same signal level as it was before their antenna move. 64.1 is not comming in at all here for several weeks. I have reveived a good signal from them in the past however.

Nitewatchman

07-25-09, 07:07 PM

Short version:

Vertical Centering appears to be off
from WSTR, only during MyTV programming - It's not an issue during other programming, or local commmercial spots ....

It appears it's "pushed down" 14 lines(or pixels, vertically) .....

Longer, detailed version :

Some months ago, I had previously posted about an issue I've noticed with WSTR only since they began converting MyTV's 720p HD to 1080i, beginning last fall ...

I've noticed There are at least 14 Horizontal lines of "blank area/black area" at top of frame at all times when they are airing MyTV programming. It should be the case during some programming which should completely fill a 16x9(1.7778:1) frame that there should be NO black/blank area in the frame ... As indeed, used to be the case when they were sending 720p .... This would not necessarily be the case for ALL programming(such as some programming sourced from Film with differing aspect ratios - MYTV may format some material so there should be in some cases some "blank" lines at top/bottom or sides/etc) .... Again, The issue only occurs during MyTV feeds that I've noticed(but including involving 16x9 programming sourced from HD Video, including during commercials and MyTV promos), and again, this has only been happening since they began converting MyTV's 720p feed to 1080i ....

I had previously thought the image (during MyTV HD feed) may be getting "squeezed" vertically, slightly, into 1920x1066 or so, with the 14 blank lines at top filling out the 1920x1080 .....

However -- After a bit more investigation -- At this point, I believe the Aspect Ratio for MyTV HD feed programming is being maintained/ is correct, and instead the centering is just OFF ... Everything is "pushed down" by 14 lines ... It's probably the case the Bottom 14 lines being sent by MyTV are being cropped out/not sent, and it is the case the Top 14 Lines are Blank area ...

Checked a Cap of a MyTV HD broadcast of the Film "Passenger 57" during the opening credits which was sent OAR : (Note: The rest of the Movie was not broadcast OAR ... it was 16x9, more or less ....)

Left Vertical = lines 0~4 are black/blank ...

Right Vertical = Lines 1016~1019 are Black/Blank ... (note: so Horizontal centering appears correct)

120 Lines at bottom are Black/Blank ....

148 Lines at Top are Black/Blank ....

This gives us a active picture area of 1912 x 812, which is a aspect ratio of : 2.35467:1

Passenger 57 Aspect Ratio(per IMBD Database) = 2.35:1 ...

So, the Aspect ratio seems to be correct, but The vertical centering is obviously off ... and, it's the case, as I expect others may have noticed in such cases, top black bar is noticably wider(vertically) than bottom black bar ..

It's a Difference of 28 lines (or pixels, vertically) ... hmmm ...

But --- If they would/could move the Video frame from MyTV feed UP by 14 lines(pixels), in this case we'd have :

134 Lines at bottom which would be black/blank area ...

134 Lines at Top which would be black/blank area ....

Which would be centered ...

emery_r

07-25-09, 09:32 PM

dj_osbo

07-26-09, 06:06 PM

One of my pet peeves with the dawn of DTV was the lack of cheap, portable, battery-operated televisions with ATSC tuners to use during lengthy power outages (e.g., last September's "hot hurricane").

I know there are now quite a few in the $100 to $200 range, but don't know which are best. If anyone has experience with good models -- or models to avoid! -- I'd love to have your input.

I have a Digital Stream 7" LCD and I'm pleased with it. It is the same as the "Haier HLT71 7-Inch Portable LCD TV" for sale at Amazon, currently for about $110. It has limited vertical resolution (about 230 lines) and so it's not all that good for graphics (such as weather forecasts), but it's acceptable for general use. The ATSC tuner appears to be as sensitive as those in other current TVs. I recommend it for portable/emergency use.

farmer_joe

07-26-09, 09:19 PM

Splicer010

07-26-09, 09:27 PM

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=U4000

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=Y5-7-13

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=UVSJ

$61.78 total w/shipping and work FANTASTIC!!! :D

pjpjpjpj

07-27-09, 03:28 PM

I live right outside the cincinnati area and am very pleased that I am going to be able to use an HD antenna. I have had non-hd cable for the past few years and am pleased that I can get HD w/o the cost. What antennas has everyone been using and how are the results?
Splicer's suggestions are good ones... there are plenty of good ones and lots of great websites devoted to building your own (some are very simple). One thing to remember is that there is no such thing as an "HD Antenna". An antenna is an antenna - a piece of metal shaped/created/tuned such that it picks up signals. What determines whether your TV viewing is HD has to do with what is on the tuner end of the cable connecting it.... a digital tuner with outputs capable of HD transmission, and a screen capable of showing "HD" resolution (defined these days as 720 vertical lines of resolution or greater).

If a salesperson tries to sell you one antenna over another because "this one is HD and that one isn't", walk away.

emery_r

07-27-09, 07:54 PM

This website item was updated just after 4 PM today -- doesn't offer much new beyond confirmation that WHIO's permanent digital antenna is still expected to be fired up later this week or early next:

http://www.whiotv.com/news/19757030/detail.html

Excerpt: WHIO-TV expects to have the work completed by late this week or early next week. The permanent transmitter will give viewers in the Miami Valley a stronger signal from WHIO-TV.

The current digital transmitter is and always has been mounted on the side of the tower, and will remain there as a backup transmitter.

voyager6

07-27-09, 09:55 PM

emery_r

07-27-09, 10:42 PM

Is a transmitter typically mounted on the tower, or did a newsroom copy person (non-technical type) transpose transmitter for antenna?

I'm about as non-technical as you can get, but I've seen many people use the terms "transmitter" and "antenna" interchangeably. I believe you're quite right to point out this is truly the ANTENNA being mounted on the tower, not the transmitter itself! Don't think any broadcaster would want to expose the actual transmitter to the local weather... :rolleyes:

cokebear

07-27-09, 11:24 PM

Lost WCPO and WKRC digital channels through TWC QAM anyone else loose these or is it on my end here in Middletucky. Sorry, rescan got them back. First noticed it late last night, too late for me to post on it then. Rescan just now picked them up again.

Bubster

07-28-09, 02:55 AM

robmadden1

07-28-09, 11:09 AM

12 keeps going out as of 11:12am. Bbut can get it just fine with Directv. keep loosing There singnale but when it comes back its in the 80's.

Splicer010

07-28-09, 11:32 AM

12 keeps going out as of 11:12am. Bbut can get it just fine with Directv. keep loosing There singnale but when it comes back its in the 80's.

No signal WKRC here @ 11:32AM using OTA...TW analog WKRC works fine...

microbob

07-28-09, 12:24 PM

No signal WKRC here @ 11:32AM using OTA...TW analog WKRC works fine...

This from twitter 8 minutes ago.

TRANSMITTER IS WORKING! We're back on the air. Thank you for your patience.

They were down for about 45 minutes OTA

Bubster

07-28-09, 02:29 PM

02:26pm Tue 28-july-2009 TWC Fairfield - still getting WCPO and WKRC fine here (9.1 & 12.1) via QAM on my Hauppauge 2250 on Win7 RC1. Too lazy to turn on the HT to test that tuner! :p :D

XmtrMan

07-28-09, 03:34 PM

We had incoming 3 phase problems in the building Tuesday morning that was giving the transmitter fits. We were on and off until just about noon. All is well now. TW & DirecTV are fiber feeds so they were unaffected.

Earlier in this thread: The TW problems with our channel 912 & 913 on 7/26 was a failure in their QAM plant. 909 and others were also gone system-wide from about 9pm Sunday night until 1:30am Monday morning.

ThoraX695

07-28-09, 07:02 PM

jimp2244

07-29-09, 07:36 AM

Has anyone noticed anything "different" about WXIX's PSIP data? For several weeks now I've not been getting any show data from them on 19-1 and 19-2 on my Samsung DLP. My Zenith DTT900 (or whatever the number is--too lazy to look it up right now) converter box seems to get the listings OK. I've been meaning to try a rescan on the Samsung.

Splicer010

07-29-09, 08:07 AM

The info is sometimes there and sometimes not on my LG 3510a tuner for the period you are asking about...

ThoraX695

07-29-09, 05:56 PM

jes92

07-29-09, 10:42 PM

rmousir

07-29-09, 10:42 PM

Hey all,

tonight 9.1/9.2 dropped and 12.2 was in and out. I am pretty sure it was/is the weather. I currently have a UHF antenna only, the 'Antennas Direct DB4' model up on the roof right now and when the weather is good my reception is pretty nice.

I have been thinking about getting a better antenna to go up on the roof or maybe a UHF/VHF combo antenna. The neighbor got a 'RCA Indoor/Outdoor TV Antenna Model: ANT751'.

Is it a bad idea to get that antenna and add it to my current set up? It is directional and mine is multi-directional. Would it be good to do both of them? Would reception be any better in bad weather with more? Is this a case of 'more is better'? I would not want to do a booster due to my not wanting to have the power on all the time.

Looking for ideas.

Thanks.

rmousir

07-29-09, 10:49 PM

jes92,

I live just down the street from Eastgate. I never was able to get WOTH-25 with my antenna in the attic. On the roof though, I get it most of the time. Hope that helps.

emery_r

07-29-09, 11:00 PM

Hello, I'm a newbie to this forum. I have a Terk unamplified indoor UHF/VHF antenna (121P006), and it gives me good results. From my location at Eastgate, I get solid reception of WDTN-2, WLWT-5, WHIO-7, WKRC-12, WPTO-14, WXIX-19, and WCET-48. WCPO-9 is a bit troublesome, but since they went back to full power I've been able to get it most of the time. WSTR-64 is a bit harder.

With some effort, I can also get WPTD-16, WKEF-22, WBDT-26, WKOI-43, and WRGT-45. I often get a weak signal (30%) on WWHO-53 (Columbus CW), and under certain conditions it's strong enough to be watchable, as are WCHM-4, WBNS-10, and WTTE-28 -- all from Columbus.

I've never been able to pull in WCVN-54. It peaks around 30% but never strong enough to watch.

I have cable, so OTA reception isn't a big concern, except that I prefer the OTA picture to cable, and I just think it's cool to pull in stations from Columbus.

The local channel that's hardest for me to watch (other than WCVN) is WOTH-25. I occasionally get it well enough to watch it for 10 seconds or so, but then it drops out for anywhere from a few seconds to several minutes. This happens even after I find the best antenna position. Since I don't get WOTH on cable, OTA is the only way I have to watch it. I live in a condo complex, so I can't put up an outside antenna, although an attic antenna might be an option. Would that work for me for WOTH? Is there another indoor antenna that might work better for WOTH? From what I've read, the antenna I'm using seems to be one of the best indoor antennae out there.

I use the amplified Terk HDTVa antenna, and have found it to be the best of all the half dozen or so I've tried. I receive WOTH better than WCPO all the time, and I'm on the west side of Hamilton! :p

From the checkered history of relations between Time Warner Cable (is that your service provider?) and Block Broadcasting, you're not likely to get WOTH programming anytime soon on cable. I see by John Kiesewetter's blog on the Cincinnati Enquirer that TWC is planning a major cutback in the PBS channels it carries, even on digital cable -- including dumping WCVN from basic cable, and some other PBS channels completely. Seems really odd, given the hundreds of channels digital subscribers have access to. Not much of a public service to cut PBS channels, is it? :mad:

jes92

07-30-09, 06:59 AM

emery_r

07-30-09, 11:19 AM

Yes, I have Time Warner. I don't really mind their cutting back the PBS channels, since I get 14, 48, and 16 OTA. With all their subchannels, that's 12 and soon to be 13 channels. If TW is dropping some PBS channels to make room for more HD channels, like Big Ten Network HD, I think it's a good tradeoff.

I'm not sure why I can't get WOTH better than I can, as TV Fool shows me in their green area, the same as WCPO, although I'm solidly in WCPO's green zone while I'm close to WOTH's cyan zone.

I always get back to the idea that many people simply don't want to deal with OTA any longer -- that is, after all, one of the reasons many have cable to begin with! I also will still have all the PBS channels OTA on separate TVs around my house, but can't understand (with HUNDREDS of possible channels on digital cable) that TW can't find room for our local PBS offerings. But TW doesn't have to care what its subscribers think -- and they never ASK, do they? Until true "a la carte" channel selection arrives, rather than being forced to buy an entire package to get the specific channels you DO want, we'll continue having many unneeded/unwanted channels among those hundreds provided to us.

Ah, well -- Kiesewetter's blog item said TW was going to meet with local PBS officials soon to discuss all this, so it's possible we'll see a change in their preliminary plans. Possible, but not likely...