Cincinnati, OH - HDTV [Text View] - Page 48

jimp2244

08-01-09, 09:35 AM

WLWT is now calling themselves "Cincinnati's most powerful TV station" in their 11pm news open.

As for this VHF thing... I do believe it would have made more sense for the FCC to sell the VHF band instead and then keep 13 more UHF channels on the high end. This would have allowed TV viewers to only need one type of antenna (UHF) which is generally smaller. UHF is also generally much less susceptible to noise/interference such as lightning and impulse noise. I'm not sure that the VHF band would have commanded as much cash as the high-UHF band did, which may certainly be one of the factors in this whole thing.

HOWEVER, VHF IS part of the digital TV spectrum, so we need to live with it and use it properly. My advice to anyone having problems receiving a VHF digital station is to first make sure you have the correct antenna. I can't believe how many people have UHF-only antennas and complain of problems receiving WKRC and WCPO. The other issue is indoor antennas. Sometimes they work, and that's great if you're one of the people who has good luck with them in your location/situation. But the fact is that TV (analog OR digital) was designed for outdoor directional antennas, NOT indoor antennas. So again, you can feel free to try and use an indoor antenna, but please don't complain when it doesn't work. It's sort of like a DirecTV subscriber complaining that his dish won't work in his attic, or that he can't pick up a usable signal with his salad bowl.

Sammer

08-01-09, 11:05 AM

I'm not sure that the VHF band would have commanded as much cash as the high-UHF band did, which may certainly be one of the factors in this whole thing.
Probably only a small fraction as much. The FCC knew the cell phone companies would be the highest bidders and they aren't interested in devices with VHF sized antennas.

Bubster

08-01-09, 02:47 PM

jimp2244

08-01-09, 07:11 PM

Dumb question... is it out of the question that TWC will ever carry the low power Ch 25 and its subs? Doesn't thrill me particularly but I know my elderly mother would be ecstatic about the retro tv subchannel.It's not out of the question, but TWC needs to be "motivated" to carry them. Currently, low-power stations are not able to invoke "must carry" with the cable company.

Of course, WOTH is one of the many benefits currently of OTA TV, just as cable and satellite have channels that OTA does not.

Nitewatchman

08-01-09, 07:11 PM

Noticed WBQC-CA 38 analog is off the air This afternoon/evening (WOTH-LD is still up) ... I Wonder if that's Permanent ?

Wasn't sinclair going to move W66AQ Ch 66 to the Star Tower and move them to Ch 22?

The CP(construction permit) for that per records currently available on FCC site is for W66AQ to use/repurpose WKEF's 22 old analog facilities (including the Top mounted Non-DA on WKEF tower, In dayton) ... If it's used, the new Callsign would be W22DE, and it's a analog LP CP - If it's still there, I can probably dig up the link to the CP authorization for it if anyone wants to see it ...

The coordinates specified in other Dayton stations' operating permits seem to indicate Digital stations WKEF/WRGT/WBDT share the same tower (WRGT/WBDT analog did broadcast from there as well, again per the records on FCC site) ... I believe it was WRGT's tower at one time, and I think it's the one which now has a crossmember and 3 visable(from ground) masts at top .... I'm not sure if anything is now using the tower that was used for WKEF analog, currently (WRCX-LP may be, though, I'm not sure) ...

Haven't seen any sign of them yet though ....

WKEF+WRGT are Sinclair owned or operated as well WSTR ...

Last I checked and saw them on 66 about a year ago or so (they only squirt 8 watts towards me per the DA info on FCC site, I'm not sure if they are currently on air but I haven't seen them in a while), they were running WRGT's MyTV subchannel -- along with the WRGT dayton news repeats at 12am, Not WSTR programming ...

At one time, right after the CP was granted in 2007, one of the Engineers at WKEF/WRGT had told me they were going to go digital on 22 with it, but the CP they have is for analog - I didn't ask him about that part of it ...

BTW, I remember when they built the "new" WKEF tower in the late 70's --- At the time,. they made a big deal about it on air, regarding it's height/etc, and I remember when it was going up and the white strobes they had (and still have I believe) on it ..

The W66AQ translator has been around about as long as WSTR (originally WBTI, later WIII then later WSTR) -- Orignally, in Early 80's (well before the "Star Tower" was built -- after that, I'm not sure they really needed the translator), WBTI and W66AQ ran the scrambled (OTA), HBO-like "OnTV" subscription Service ... I also recall when it went bust(at one point, I think it pretty much devolved into a porn channel - scrambled of course), they had a truckload of the "ONTV" descramblers at Dayton Hamvention's Flea Market ...

Update: Oh, BTW ---- Another tower I've been wondering about is WAVE 3's Huge stick (not used by the WAVE digital, which transmits from Floyd's knob) --- Which is fairly new --- Anyone find a use for it yet ???

ThoraX695

08-01-09, 07:44 PM

Update: Oh, BTW ---- Another tower I've been wondering about is WAVE 3's Huge stick (not used by the WAVE digital, which transmits from Floyd's knob) --- Which is fairly new --- Anyone find a use for it yet ???

It would be nice to use as a spot to put translators and repeaters for stations around that market.

Nitewatchman

08-01-09, 08:21 PM

I really can't quite imagine it not being used for some sort of Full service broadcast station (Radio if not TV) .... it's not your usual, run of the mill tower ..... At 1864', I think it's the tallest structure in KY .... Update: Of course, It's location, being a fair amount East of Louisville, and not near the other stations in the market has never made sense from a "tower farm"/co-located stations point of view --- kind of like WKOI up here ... I think they wanted to Cover portions of Cincy and Lexington markets with it as well, but of course those markets have NBC affiliates .... I watched them(analog mostly as I could get it all the time) occasionally however, for stuff like Derby day coverage, Local Louisville news/etc ....

A Dx'er friend(who happens to be a Broadcast Engineer is inspector for FCC's voluntary inspection program) some years ago had a tour of WAVE, including of the tower and as I recall he had mentioned an elevator ride to some level on the tower .... If I recall correctly, He said something about the number of Humvees which could be parked(and supported) at the level they had visited ....

jimp2244

08-02-09, 12:02 PM

I really can't quite imagine it not being used for some sort of Full service broadcast station (Radio if not TV) .... it's not your usual, run of the mill tower ..... At 1864', I think it's the tallest structure in KY .... Update: Of course, It's location, being a fair amount East of Louisville, and not near the other stations in the market has never made sense from a "tower farm"/co-located stations point of view --- kind of like WKOI up here ... I think they wanted to Cover portions of Cincy and Lexington markets with it as well, but of course those markets have NBC affiliates .... I watched them(analog mostly as I could get it all the time) occasionally however, for stuff like Derby day coverage, Local Louisville news/etc ....
While I understand the sense it makes for WAVE to broadcast digitally from the same area as the other Louisville stations, I am going to miss being able to watch out of market newscasts on WAVE 3 analog.

jimp2244

08-02-09, 12:20 PM

Jeff, this is a bit in response to the posts in the Dayton thread regarding TVGoS, but I believe this belongs in the Cincinnati thread. I've not had listings in my TV Guide on my Samsung DLP for quite some time. I assume they have come from WKRC in the past but I have no idea how to tell where the TV gets them from (or if it's possible to tell with my TV). I believe in addition to WHIO, I have heard that WKRC has had issues with sending the listings as well, but I don't recall hearing about any problems with them currently. Is there a way for me to tell if a station is sending the TVGoS data (and if it is sending correctly) by looking at TSReader?

And, speaking of TSReader is there a way I can look to see if WXIX is doing something "wrong" or "different" in regard to sending the PSIP data? My Zenith converter box does fine with their PSIP guide data but the Samsung DLP just says no data.

emery_r

08-02-09, 03:25 PM

While I understand the sense it makes for WAVE to broadcast digitally from the same area as the other Louisville stations, I am going to miss being able to watch out of market newscasts on WAVE 3 analog.

Not to stir up an old hornet's nest, but I'm a bit glad WAVE moved from their old tower in one way. While I also miss receiving their analog signal on ch. 3, since they now broadcast digitally on RF 47 (same as WOTH 25.1 thru 25.4 here in Cincinnati), it wouldn't work too well to have WAVE encroaching even closer to Cincinnati.

I'd far rather have WOTH etc. than WAVE, if that's the basic choice! And it doesn't appear to be a possibility that either will abandon RF 47...

emery_r

08-02-09, 07:06 PM

Noticed WBQC-CA 38 analog is off the air This afternoon/evening (WOTH-LD is still up) ... I Wonder if that's Permanent?

I see it's definitely off the air at 7 PM Sunday -- the only analog signal I still receive is TBN's low-power station on channel 36. The end of the analog era appears to be nearly complete in Cincinnati!

The folks at Block Broadcasting said it would happen as soon as various cable providers made the switch to their digital signal -- that process must be complete now...

Nitewatchman

08-02-09, 07:59 PM

Is there a way for me to tell if a station is sending the TVGoS data (and if it is sending correctly) by looking at TSReader?

Yes on the sending, but not necessarily on the correctly ---

In TSreader, In the "tree" list at left :

Click on/expand "PMT PID 0x0030 -- Program 1" --- the TVGoS data from WKRC* are in the following streams you'll see "below" PMT PID 0x0030 (program 1) :

ES PID 0x0110 (PID 272) - This is a SCTE 127 stream (teletext/VBI) -- the "fb" in the VBI data Descriptor identifies it as sending TVGoS Data - (TV2GX) -- The TVGoS data in this stream "simulates" the old Analog TVGoS sent via VBI, and should work with some equipment (perhaps including your Samsung TV? ), including DTV converter boxes to pass along TVGoS data to devices which only support the old, analog TVGoS data, previously sent via Analog signals VBI ....

ES PID 0x0111 (PID 273) - This is TVGoS digital stream (Format identifer TVG1) --

ES PID 0x0112 (PID 274) - This is TVGoS digital stream (Format identifer TVG2) ---

You can also see those streams(including their bandwidth usage) in the PID usage list, or View/PID list ...

Only devices which specifically support TVGoS digital will use the TVG1 or TVG2 streams ... My DTV Pal DVR uses either one or both of those streams for it's TVGoS listings, and It's working fine from WKRC currently here, I have no way to check the TVGoS data from the SCTE 127 stream, as I don't have any devices which support the analog TVGoS ....

None of these 3 streams are currently present from WHIO, however .... They were there a few days ago, but were gone for about a month before that, and gone again the last couple of days .... They've been MIA from WBNS lately as well (although, they were present in WBNS stream last night) .....

* - You'll find them in more or less the same place from other stations sending TVGoS as well, although it could be under "program 3" or "4" or whatever - Trip has a collection of TSreader HTML output files on Rabbitears which will show these, where present as well ....

And, speaking of TSReader is there a way I can look to see if WXIX is doing something "wrong" or "different" in regard to sending the PSIP data?

I don't notice anything wrong or different in WXIX's PSIP via a quick look, but TSreader can't tell us everything -- The program guide info/listings from the EITs (PSIP event information tables) can be seen in the "tree" list under "EIT"/ETT, or in a Grid Type display if you chose "View" then "EPG Grid" .....

I also haven't noticed any issues with it here on various receivers, FWIW ... Different receivers can behave differently of course .....

jimp2244

08-02-09, 09:15 PM

^ Thanks. I guess maybe I should be wondering if perhaps my Samsung was able to get the TVGoS listings when they were coming from analog WKRC, but can't read the simulated stream from WKRC digital.

The WXIX PSIP issue I guess will have to remain a mystery for now. TVGoS and the PSIP guide data aren't a "big deal" to me personally as all my DVR functionality uses the BeyondTV guide data, but I still think this stuff "should work" and when it doesn't it would seem to affect the viability of OTA tv to some people.

Update: After looking through the Samsung 1080p HLRxxx8W thread (mine's a 56" HL-R5678), it looks like others are seeing the "no data" for TVGoS as well. I guess I have to hope for a firmware update or something now. My picture-in-picture functionality is also pretty much useless as this set does not allow use of the digital tuner in the PiP window. I may be able to hook a converter box into the "cable" input and use it that way-- I have yet to try.

ngarrang

08-02-09, 09:23 PM

Sorry, WOTH, no joy in mudville. With DB8 installed, no Channel 25 for me. The geographic problem is too high for me to surmount.

But, I am now running two antennas into a combiner and did add 7,22 and 45 to my line-up.

I am now done with antenna work. Except for installing a 100' tower, there is nothing else I can to surpass my geographical problems with 25 and 54.

Radio Flyer

08-03-09, 09:52 PM

[QUOTE=The coordinates specified in other Dayton stations' operating permits seem to indicate Digital stations WKEF/WRGT/WBDT share the same tower (WRGT/WBDT analog did broadcast from there as well, again per the records on FCC site) ... I believe it was WRGT's tower at one time, and I think it's the one which now has a crossmember and 3 visable(from ground) masts at top ....

QUOTE]

The three masted candelabra tower, I believe, was constructed just north of the original WRGT analog 45 tower. The original tower is still there; I don't think it would have been strong enough to support the three mast assembly on top. The towers are so closely co-located they may have the same lat/lon location. I'm assuming that analog 45 was still on the old tower. If so, there are two approx. 1000 foot towers in the Dayton market with silent analog antennae on top.

Splicer010

08-03-09, 10:24 PM

When is WHIO going to be finished with the new antenna/location???

emery_r

08-03-09, 11:24 PM

When is WHIO going to be finished with the new antenna/location???

About ten days ago, they'd said they expected work to conclude late last week, or early this week. Once we get to Wednesday, I wouldn't consider it to be "early this week" any longer! ;)

But I saw nothing on their 6 PM news tonight discussing the tower work, and nothing new has been posted on their website. So we wait a bit longer, I guess... :(

emery_r

08-04-09, 07:46 AM

Here's a programming question for our friends at Block Broadcasting -- what's up with the RTV schedule? The programs being shown on RTV since at least 12:30 AM this morning are not the same as the published schedule.

There was supposed to be a 2nd "Alfred Hitchcock Presents" at 12:30 AM, but it was actually a 1950's "Adventures of Robin Hood", followed by "Peter Gunn" instead of "Night Gallery" at 1 AM. This morning, rather than the usual half-hour comedies at 7 AM, we have a B&W "Daniel Boone". Has the RTV broadcast schedule changed, or is it an RTV glitch, sending us the feed for a different market?

Just checked the on-screen program guide, and found it still lists the previous schedule, not today's programs!

Also, have you switched off Ch. 38 analog for good?

EDIT: I see today (8/7/09) that the TitanTV listings for 25.3/RTV are accurate, although the on-screen programming info for 25.3 may still reflect the old schedule. TitanTV also still includes WBQC/WKRP/38 analog, even though it's definitely off the air!

Nitewatchman

08-04-09, 06:39 PM

^ Thanks. I guess maybe I should be wondering if perhaps my Samsung was able to get the TVGoS listings when they were coming from analog WKRC, but can't read the simulated stream from WKRC digital.

Just FYI -- I don't think WKRC analog ever sent TVGoS --- It was (particpating) PBS analog stations, for the most part which did the analog TVGoS via VBI ....

The three masted candelabra tower, I believe, was constructed just north of the original WRGT analog 45 tower. The original tower is still there; I don't think it would have been strong enough to support the three mast assembly on top. The towers are so closely co-located they may have the same lat/lon location. I'm assuming that analog 45 was still on the old tower. If so, there are two approx. 1000 foot towers in the Dayton market with silent analog antennae on top.

Ah, thanks for the info ... I'd never looked at it closely enough, when I first noticed the tower with the 3 masts+given the coordinate info, I'd assumed it was the original WRGT tower that had been "redone" ..... (WSYX/WTTE did something like that a few years later) .....

ThoraX695

08-04-09, 07:18 PM

Who says all this rain is a bad thing? I (barely) picked up WLJC (physical 7, virtual 65) southeast of Lexington (114 miles) and WIPB (physical 23, virtual 49) from Muncie (83 miles)!

emery_r

08-04-09, 09:09 PM

Who says all this rain is a bad thing? I (barely) picked up WLJC (physical 7, virtual 65) southeast of Lexington (114 miles) and WIPB (physical 23, virtual 49) from Muncie (83 miles)!

It's almost always the clearest "distant station" for me -- even when no picture will appear, there's generally a signal dancing around on the power meter. Almost every evening on the west side of Hamilton, it's strong enough to get program info and watch, with some breaking up.

Splicer010

08-05-09, 12:09 AM

So how did you all do today with the storms??? All in all I can't really complain...The stations that I had the most issues with were (VHF) 9 & 12...I really couldn't believe the breakups I got from what are (normally) my 2 strongest stations...Everytime lightening flashed the dropouts occured...

However the complete opposite occured with the remaining (UHF) stations...Never a dropout and signal remained no less consistent than a clear sunny day...The one exception being RTV25...While watching 'Emergency!' (I like that show alot ;) ) there were some breakups but that was on the stations end reception of RTV itself which the weather I'm sure was the cause since it isn't the strongest signal to beginwith and is easily disturbed...

This was easily the worst storm we have had (around 4" of rain and massive amounts of lightening) that I have seen around here is a VERY long time (years) and I must say as a whole I am rather pleased with the end results in reception here...I never did a rescan to see if I could DX stations but I figure if I can't DX all the time it is pointless (to me) for 5 minutes or whatever I might get reception for...

Once the lightening stopped my VHF stations came right back solid as ever... :D

As a side note the last time we got close to this much lightening and frequency was about 3 years ago and I lost my AVR and my beloved servo sub to a power surge even though they and everything else was powered through a surge protector...While the rest of my equipment survived those 2 pieces didn't...In a way it all turned out alright as I ultimately not only just replaced the bad equipment but I substantially upgraded which I probably would not have done and likely still would not have done...But as a result my system has improved rather significantly all the way around...

The point of all this is since I upgraded I did not want to have to go thru all this again from another power surge and I bought a surge protector well beyond most 'standard' surge protectors...Today I feel it paid for itself and then some...A worthwhile investment that was put thru its paces today as we had so many surges I lost track after 15 :eek: ...Never skipping a beat my APC H15 performed admirably and I recommend this unit whole heartedly...If you can find one for a good price you should jump on it...

Thanks for reading my (good) rant... :)

jimp2244

08-05-09, 07:10 AM

emery_r

08-05-09, 11:11 AM

(originally posted on the Dayton thread)

Just got a couple of e-mails from Chuck Eastman, WHIO's chief engineer, and with his permission, here's what he says:

"Good morning,

The antenna is mounted finally and we are installing the new hardline to feed it. Depending on weather, we should have it on-line next week."

He later re-emphasized:

"...please remember, this date is dependant on weather."

So STAY TUNED, folks, we appear to be looking at sometime next week, if the stars are properly aligned! :D

Splicer010

08-05-09, 11:31 AM

I can get WHIO now but not consistently...very sporadic...Before I order a rotor for the antenna I want to see how well it comes in with the new antenna...If I am going to need the rotor I need to install it before I have my knee surgery in a few weeks...

The reason behind my desire to get WHIO is they usually show Da Bears games when the Cincy market does not...My wife is from Chicago and I lived there for a number of years and we are avid Bears fans...Of course I am from here and root for the Bungals but there really isn't much to root for any more...:(

zekyl

08-06-09, 02:07 PM

Does anyone know anything about the ad FOX19 is running about saving local TV on cable and satellite? I searched around and really didn't see much. Am I missing something here?

http://www.fox19.com/Global/story.asp?S=10781660

Thanks,

Splicer010

08-06-09, 02:33 PM

This is all based on the fact that the local stations demand compensation from cable/satellite providers to be able to retransmit the local channels and cable/satellite saying that since it is already broadcast over the air for free that they shouldn't have to pay...

Right now since the locals are mandated to be carried the sat/cable cos are, for lack of a better term, being forced to pay for retransmission rights...The local stations are upset that cable/sat are making money off of the locals since that is a huge reason for subscription TV to begin with...So they started charging for the right to retrans and now cable/sat is ticked their revenue is decreased...

It certainly isn't a bad idea to write your congressman and state your beliefs but then again I wouldn't worry too much about it...If the cable/sat co drops the local channels, subscribers will drop the cable/sat co...The local station appeal is ALOT stronger than most give it credit for...

zekyl

08-06-09, 04:13 PM

Nitewatchman

08-06-09, 07:14 PM

ThoraX695

08-06-09, 08:32 PM

Since we were talking about it earlier ... WSTR LP translator W22DE Dayton (was W66AQ), analog, has fired up (using WKEF 22 analog's old facilities, but at lower power - 54KW ERP, Non-DA) ..... They're Still running WRGT's 45.2 subchannel, as they were on 66 last I had seen them ...

This is curious. Unless the FCC pushed them to abandon channel 66, why would their translator still be broadcasting in analog? Are they going to flash-cut to digital on channel 22 soon?

emery_r

08-06-09, 09:40 PM

This is curious. Unless the FCC pushed them to abandon channel 66, why would their translator still be broadcasting in analog? Are they going to flash-cut to digital on channel 22 soon?

I don't claim to be any sort of expert, but my understanding was that the spectrum from Channel 52 and above was auctioned off for emergency and other communication needs, and all FULL POWER stations using those channels had to abandon them by June 12, when the final digital switch occurred. LOW POWER stations (analog or digital) -- and I assume that naturally includes translators -- are allowed to remain on Ch. 52 and above after June 12, until the winning bidders begin operating on those same channels.

Also, we still have a low-power analog station in Cincinnati on Ch. 36, broadcasting TBN programming. I've read comments by others who say this may not technically be a translator for WKOI, but I think it's airing the same programs as 43.1.

ThoraX695

08-06-09, 09:50 PM

I don't claim to be any sort of expert, but my understanding was that the spectrum from Channel 52 and above was auctioned off for emergency and other communication needs, and all FULL POWER stations using those channels had to abandon them by June 12, when the final digital switch occurred. LOW POWER stations (analog or digital) -- and I assume that naturally includes translators -- are allowed to remain on Ch. 52 and above after June 12, until the winning bidders begin operating on those same channels.

Right. My thoughts exactly. So why did they abandon analog 66 so quickly in favor of analog 22? Better equipment? Or are they biding their time to save up for a digital transmitter for their translator?

Also, we still have a low-power analog station in Cincinnati on Ch. 36, broadcasting TBN programming. I've read comments by others who say this may not technically be a translator for WKOI, but I think it's airing the same programs as 43.1.

Yes. I believe during the time around the transition, its normal programming stopped and just broadcast a "satellite not found" screen for a week or so.

Trip in VA

08-06-09, 09:52 PM

Probably because they already had a fully functional analog 22 setup from WKEF and just needed to lower the power output.

- Trip

pjpjpjpj

08-07-09, 08:34 AM

That makes a lot of sense and I agree with your last statement 100%. Sure, you can get them OTA (Most places), but most people don't want to deal with that. A ton of people would be fired up if cable / sat dropped them.
Case in point, last winter when they ran the digital transition test in prime time, and Time Warner was just passing along the analog Channel 5 feed, so all these people who had been told "if you have cable, you don't have to worry about the switch" suddenly lost Channel 5... the backlash was loud and immediate...

Cable customers get frustrated enough when they get that piece of mail saying "your package is about to expire, please choose a new one" and have to either pay more money or else drop channels to keep the same rate.... imagine when they get the letter telling them that they will have to now buy the "locals" package, or else fool around with their equipment and install an antenna or two...

jimp2244

08-07-09, 09:05 AM

Since we were talking about it earlier ... WSTR LP translator W22DE Dayton (was W66AQ), analog, has fired up (using WKEF 22 analog's old facilities, but at lower power - 54KW ERP, Non-DA) ..... They're Still running WRGT's 45.2 subchannel, as they were on 66 last I had seen them ...
What purpose does this translator serve if they're broadcasting 45.2 in analog from the Channel 22 tower at lower power than WRGT broadcasts digitally already?

microbob

08-07-09, 11:54 AM

emery_r

08-07-09, 12:09 PM

What purpose does this translator serve if they're broadcasting 45.2 in analog from the Channel 22 tower at lower power than WRGT broadcasts digitally already?

But then again, there are two stations in Dayton that do other odd things. WDTN/2 and WBDT/26 both broadcast in HD on their primary channels, and use their digital subchannels to broadcast EXACTLY the same programming in standard definition. What's up with that? Hardly worth the effort, and not very creative...

jimp2244

08-07-09, 12:32 PM

But then again, there are two stations in Dayton that do other odd things. WDTN/2 and WBDT/26 both broadcast in HD on their primary channels, and use their digital subchannels to broadcast EXACTLY the same programming in standard definition. What's up with that? Hardly worth the effort, and not very creative...Some cable/sat companies use the SD stream for their feeds. However at this point I would think those providers should be doing the down-conversion themselves not to mention 2-2 and 26-2 look terrible.

Sammer

08-07-09, 02:01 PM

It does seem strange dosen't it. I would guess that if they didn't have the station on the air the FCC would revoke it's licence. It could be that Sinclair is planning to convert it to digital at a higher power in the future.
It appears that they want to maintain the translator license and channel 22 frequency. Because it's the result of displacement of channel 66, it's protected from everyone but full (power) service licensees.

emery_r

08-07-09, 04:45 PM

After a week or two of confusion (on my part, at least) over the RTV program schedule for WOTH/25.3, both the TitanTV schedule linked from the www.wkrp.tv website and the schedule on RTV's affiliates page are accurate.

http://www.myretrotv.com/prog_schedules/RTV-National.pdf

Ah, well. My double dose of Alfred Hitchcock Presents is now reduced to a single episode each weeknight, and the 1960s hour-long version of Hitchcock that appears in some RTV markets is still nowhere to be found here. :( It was nice for the few months it lasted...

Now, can some kind person at Block Broadcasting officially and finally confirm that Ch. 38 analog is gone for good? It's been missing for many days now, but no direct confirmation has appeared that I've seen!

jes92

08-08-09, 09:46 PM

So I'm watching the CFL game between the Hamilton Tiger-Cats and Edmonton Eskimos tonight on WOTH-25.1. Tied at 21, the Ti-Cats score to go up 28-21 with 46 seconds left, and then precisely at 9:30, some stupid NASCAR show comes on. Apparently, whatever doofus was left in charge of the station forgot that a sporting event doesn't have a definite end time and that there's a possibility that it could run over its scheduled time. So I have no idea how the game ended! And of course I couldn't find a "Contact Us" link on WOTH's web site. Great job, WOTH! No wonder Time Warner doesn't want to carry them. What a bunch of morons!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

Nitewatchman

08-08-09, 10:58 PM

LOW POWER stations (analog or digital) -- and I assume that naturally includes translators -- are allowed to remain on Ch. 52 and above after June 12, until the winning bidders begin operating on those same channels.

Yes, However --- The reallocation of Ch 52~69 post-transition WAS the (valid) reason for the displacement in this case. They did not have to wait until new user of the spectrum was ready to use it to file for the displacement, nor did they have to wait for the new spectrum users to begin operations to move to 22 once the CP was granted (which occured in May 2007) ...

They did however, in this case have to wait until after June 12, 2009 to move to 22, given WKEF was using not only 22, but also the facilities that W22DE is now using (at lower power) .... Strange as it might seem, when they applied for the displacement, they actually had to submit a interference agreement with WKEF .....

The Construction permit for them to move to 22 would have expired 5/14/2010, they did have to get it on 22 by then (or file another displacement app/etc) -- I do not believe FCC extends LP construction permits ....

BTW, As for the "W22DE" callsign and why I'm using it to refer to them -- The only place I think you'll probably see it (currently) is if you go to following link, and view the CP authorization itself(use the "view authorization" link available at below link), which specifies the W22DE callsign, as well as
the Technical parameters/etc involved for it (54KW ERP/etc) :

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_det.pl?Application_id=1125566

Also --- W36DG (TBN translator) Cincinnati moved from 61(was W61DE) to 36 several years ago for the same reason, So did WWRD-LP Dayton (from 55 to 32 -- But in that case, Media-flo actually began operations in the area on 55 well before the transition was over, and shortly after WWRD moved to 32) as have many other LP stations already moved (or have CP's via displacment to do so) from 52~69 ....

Update: Also --- KET Translators In Falmouth and Augusta which both operated on 56 (also out of core of course) with analog got Digital Companion channels on 20+23, and when they began DTV operations on 20+23, they went silent with analog on 56 ....

Also, we still have a low-power analog station in Cincinnati on Ch. 36, broadcasting TBN programming. I've read comments by others who say this may not technically be a translator for WKOI, but I think it's airing the same programs as 43.1.

That would be W36DG/TBN Translator, Cincinnati .. Unlike W20CL Springfield(Which actually is a WKOI translator, or was last time I paid any attention) --- Although Both WKOI and W36DG run TBN ---- W36DG does NOT air the local programming of WKOI .... WKOI does actually have some local programming - such as some public affairs shows/etc airing in the wee hours or I think at times during some weekdays through the day .....

That's why W36DG is "officially" a translator of KTBN (The flagship TBN station in CA) ... But, As ThoraX695 has noticed, in fact they get the TBN Feed they are retransmitting via Dish Network (TBN is channel 260 on Dish, on the 119 bird, Transpoder # 11 ...) .... Obvious as when they have "rain fade" issues(Which seem to happen a LOT for them for some reason, a lot more than they should, probably), messages from a Dish network receiver pop up that give the channel # (260) and transponder #/etc .... I'm not sure however that I've ever seen a "KTBN" ID there (Via W36DG or Channel 260 on Dish Network), nor a "W36DG" ID from W36DG for that matter ......

I would guess that if they didn't have the station on the air the FCC would revoke it's licence.

I'm guessing(and this time I *am* speculating here) something somewhat "along those lines" and/or "an abundance of caution" or something similar is also probably why WOTH filed for the (analog) channel 19 displacement, even though they already have their license for digital operation with WOTH-LD on 47 ....

But, of course they do have to actually put a station on the air(or at least make attempts to do so) at some point to keep the (analog WOTH) license ....

As I said earlier, if it is granted, it just gives them another, potential option to use (including for analog operation of WOTH, but also *potentially* for the future a different possible option than 47 for digital) should they want or need those options at some point ...

They may not want or need it, in which case I'm not sure it would matter/am not sure why they filed for it, if they are no longer interested in broadcasting analog until such time FCC may* require analog LP's discontinue operations+IF that happens, probably, I'd guess require LP's running DTV stations on digital companion channels to surrender ONE of their channel allocations, given they already have WOTH-LD (digital) on 47 .....

Still, it was a SMART move (IMO) for them to file for it, just in case they do need or want "another option" at some point .....

* - Or may not -- We don't know yet ---

enzytebob

08-10-09, 02:18 AM

WLWT is now calling themselves "Cincinnati's most powerful TV station" in their 11pm news open.

HOWEVER, VHF IS part of the digital TV spectrum, so we need to live with it and use it properly. My advice to anyone having problems receiving a VHF digital station is to first make sure you have the correct antenna. I can't believe how many people have UHF-only antennas and complain of problems receiving WKRC and WCPO. The other issue is indoor antennas. Sometimes they work, and that's great if you're one of the people who has good luck with them in your location/situation. But the fact is that TV (analog OR digital) was designed for outdoor directional antennas, NOT indoor antennas. So again, you can feel free to try and use an indoor antenna, but please don't complain when it doesn't work. It's sort of like a DirecTV subscriber complaining that his dish won't work in his attic, or that he can't pick up a usable signal with his salad bowl.

I will re-post my response on the Dayton page:

Most observers say UHF is the place to be in the digital world. UHF penetrates buildings better and is more reliable for indoor reception than VHF. Furthermore, VHF doesn't work very with mobile TV, which is supposed to be the wave of the future. For example, at my brother's house in an East Columbus suburb, the OTA signal of WSYX (DTV VHF 13) is very finicky with a set of rabbit ears. Someone walking on the wrong side of the room causes the picture to pixelate and his house is only 13 miles from the WSYX tower. On the other hand, I have a WinTV card in my office computer in Downtown Columbus and can pick up WDEM-LP (DTV UHF 17) just fine with a $6 UHF antenna from Big Lots even though they only have 1.05-kw of ERP! (I am 3.5 miles away from the tower). Bottom line is that watching WSYX is way too much hassle not too different than watching analog UHF in the old days unless you have an outdoor antenna.

WSYX has 59-kw of power which is far more than WCPO or WKRC have, so I can only imagine how difficult locking onto their signals must be. In fact, Sinclair has petitioned the FCC to dump Channel 13 in order to move to Channel 48. I think that says a lot because Sinclair is known both for their technical saavy and their cheapness. WKRC's engineer also stated in an interview, that he would rather have Channel 31 back, but the decision to use Channel 12 was made by the old regime at Cheap Channel.

Here's a little trivia for you: Back in the early 1960's, when CBS ruled the world, WKRC was known as being the most unsuccessful big-city CBS affiliate in the country. Part of the reason for this was that WKRC had a short tower and an awful signal. In fact, all of the Cincinnati stations at the time were on short towers, the idea being to minimize overlap with sister stations WLWC, WLWD, WLWI and WTVN-TV. WHIO and WHAS sucessfully poached WKRC's viewers as a result, forcing WKRC to build a new tall tower and for many years using the slogan "Tall Twelve." I don't know if history is repeating itself due to cable penetration, but it will be interesting to see.

pjpjpjpj

08-10-09, 07:33 AM

Here's a little trivia for you: Back in the early 1960's, when CBS ruled the world, WKRC was known as being the most unsuccessful big-city CBS affiliate in the country. Part of the reason for this was that WKRC had a short tower and an awful signal. In fact, all of the Cincinnati stations at the time were on short towers, the idea being to minimize overlap with sister stations WLWC, WLWD, WLWI and WTVN-TV. WHIO and WHAS sucessfully poached WKRC's viewers as a result, forcing WKRC to build a new tall tower and for many years using the slogan "Tall Twelve." I don't know if history is repeating itself due to cable penetration, but it will be interesting to see.
WKRC was only a CBS affiliate until 1961. When was the tower built?

jimp2244

08-10-09, 08:41 AM

I will re-post my response on the Dayton page:

Most observers say UHF is the place to be in the digital world. UHF penetrates buildings better and is more reliable for indoor reception than VHF. Furthermore, VHF doesn't work very with mobile TV, which is supposed to be the wave of the future. For example, at my brother's house in an East Columbus suburb, the OTA signal of WSYX (DTV VHF 13) is very finicky with a set of rabbit ears. Someone walking on the wrong side of the room causes the picture to pixelate and his house is only 13 miles from the WSYX tower. On the other hand, I have a WinTV card in my office computer in Downtown Columbus and can pick up WDEM-LP (DTV UHF 17) just fine with a $6 UHF antenna from Big Lots even though they only have 1.05-kw of ERP! (I am 3.5 miles away from the tower). Bottom line is that watching WSYX is way too much hassle not too different than watching analog UHF in the old days unless you have an outdoor antenna.

WSYX has 59-kw of power which is far more than WCPO or WKRC have, so I can only imagine how difficult locking onto their signals must be. In fact, Sinclair has petitioned the FCC to dump Channel 13 in order to move to Channel 48. I think that says a lot because Sinclair is known both for their technical saavy and their cheapness. WKRC's engineer also stated in an interview, that he would rather have Channel 31 back, but the decision to use Channel 12 was made by the old regime at Cheap Channel.

Here's a little trivia for you: Back in the early 1960's, when CBS ruled the world, WKRC was known as being the most unsuccessful big-city CBS affiliate in the country. Part of the reason for this was that WKRC had a short tower and an awful signal. In fact, all of the Cincinnati stations at the time were on short towers, the idea being to minimize overlap with sister stations WLWC, WLWD, WLWI and WTVN-TV. WHIO and WHAS sucessfully poached WKRC's viewers as a result, forcing WKRC to build a new tall tower and for many years using the slogan "Tall Twelve." I don't know if history is repeating itself due to cable penetration, but it will be interesting to see.It really would be preferable if we didn't have the same discussion in two places, especially when most people read both threads. I really don't see the need to clarify any more than I already have above in my post that you have responded to, and again, Sinclair's only motivation is for mobile TV.

Nitewatchman

08-10-09, 06:29 PM

WSYX has 59-kw of power which is far more than WCPO or WKRC have

It's only about 6dB more ....

so I can only imagine how difficult locking onto their signals must be ....

It's pretty easy here, 32 miles from them with indoor VHF rabbit ears (Through 5 walls) .....

enzytebob

08-10-09, 07:34 PM

It's only about 6dB more ....

It's pretty easy here, 32 miles from them with indoor VHF rabbit ears (Through 5 walls) .....

The caveat, which I forgot to mention, is that my brother had an Olevia flat screen and a set of RCA rabbit ears. He didn't even know how to get HD until I set it up for him (he was just watching through the cable box). Anything we would watch would easily pixelate. The power supply on that TV has since been fried and Olevia went bankrupt-so time for a new TV. But he lives in a high spot in the county, so I still say reception shouldn't be a problem. The only thing I can figure is the mesh embedded in the stucco is making things difficult.

I have an outdoor aerial (along with basic cable) and I am tickled whenever I get WHIO, WBDT and WDTN.

blbrodbeck

08-10-09, 10:12 PM

I used to have an Olevia. The tuner wasn't very good. It couldn't get & hold some of the local channels. I ended up using a Samsung HD tuner box with it because the Olevia tuner was so bad.

enzytebob

08-10-09, 10:33 PM

I used to have an Olevia. The tuner wasn't very good. It couldn't get & hold some of the local channels. I ended up using a Samsung HD tuner box with it because the Olevia tuner was so bad.

Could be, that's why I mentioned he had an Olevia. They went bankrupt and the repair guy says power supplies are not available so I guess the TV goes to the landfill.

jimp2244

08-10-09, 10:58 PM

Could be, that's why I mentioned he had an Olevia. They went bankrupt and the repair guy says power supplies are not available so I guess the TV goes to the landfill.
There is a HUGE variance in ATSC tuners. I have 7 devices with ATSC tuners (that I can think of right now :) ). While my worst tuner may not even see a channel, my best tuner could be decoding it perfectly fine without a single dropout, ever. Tuners in the middle might "pixelate" or drop out from time to time. A good tuner makes a BIG difference.

ThoraX695

08-10-09, 11:09 PM

There is a HUGE variance in ATSC tuners. I have 7 devices with ATSC tuners (that I can think of right now :) ). While my worst tuner may not even see a channel, my best tuner could be decoding it perfectly fine without a single dropout, ever. Tuners in the middle might "pixelate" or drop out from time to time. A good tuner makes a BIG difference.

Is there a list of the best ATSC tuners somewhere? Are some manufacturers better than others?

enzytebob

08-11-09, 12:14 AM

Is there a list of the best ATSC tuners somewhere? Are some manufacturers better than others?

Yeah, that's a good question. I haven't taken the HD plunge yet because I don't want to throw out my 36" Quasar/Panasonic just yet (I still really like the set!) I have a Zenith converter box and I bought it because it got good reviews on tuner sensitivity. So far, I've been pretty happy with this box.

Is it therefore safe to assume that this means LG/Zenith products have some of the better tuners out there? In the old days, you could always count on Sony and Panasonic to have decent tuners, as well. Does this still hold true? Samsung? RCA, Magnavox and Zenith always had crappy tuners.

It's hard to find reviews concerning tuners since everyone seems to be wired nowadays.

cokebear

08-11-09, 06:38 AM

The caveat, which I forgot to mention, is that my brother had an Olevia flat screen and a set of RCA rabbit ears. He didn't even know how to get HD until I set it up for him (he was just watching through the cable box). Anything we would watch would easily pixelate. The power supply on that TV has since been fried and Olevia went bankrupt-so time for a new TV. But he lives in a high spot in the county, so I still say reception shouldn't be a problem. The only thing I can figure is the mesh embedded in the stucco is making things difficult.

I have an outdoor aerial (along with basic cable) and I am tickled whenever I get WHIO, WBDT and WDTN.
Ever hear of A Faraday cage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage)?

pjpjpjpj

08-11-09, 07:34 AM

Anyone else hearing crackling in the audio on channel 12 this morning?

(for all I know, it could be there all the time and this could be old news... I probably wouldn't normally notice but this morning, I did, for some reason...)

pjpjpjpj

08-11-09, 07:37 AM

Is there a list of the best ATSC tuners somewhere? Are some manufacturers better than others?
Jeff will give you the complete rundown on TV tuners, but I believe the Zenith boxes were pretty highly regarded when the converter program was in full swing. As for the HTPC world (PC tuners), from what I see on other forums and from my own experience, it seems like the Hauppauge 2250 (internal card) and the Silicondust HD Homerun (network device) are two of the better options available.

enzytebob

08-11-09, 06:56 PM

Jeff will give you the complete rundown on TV tuners, but I believe the Zenith boxes were pretty highly regarded when the converter program was in full swing. As for the HTPC world (PC tuners), from what I see on other forums and from my own experience, it seems like the Hauppauge 2250 (internal card) and the Silicondust HD Homerun (network device) are two of the better options available.

I have the Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-1250 and have been generally satisfied with it. I don't currently really use it for OTA, but was able to DX the Dayton stations during tropo season last year with my suburban-style rooftop antenna. Being able to DX Dayton stations from East Columbus is kind of my "poor man's" way of deciding if I have a good tuner or not. You can't do that with anything that says RCA or Magnavox on the label!

jimp2244

08-12-09, 12:43 PM

For example, at my brother's house in an East Columbus suburb, the OTA signal of WSYX (DTV VHF 13) is very finicky with a set of rabbit ears. Someone walking on the wrong side of the room causes the picture to pixelate and his house is only 13 miles from the WSYX tower.I just wanted to add that in addition to what we've discussed, VHF does have some enhanced signal propagation attributes. For example, today in the Lexington thread a poster noted receiving your very WSYX in Winchester, KY which is about 15 miles ESE of Lexington, although he's having trouble decoding because they have a local station in Lexington on VHF 13 as well. Granted his reception today was most likely due to tropo, but still VHF can and does often "travel further" than UHF, especially when the curvature of the earth becomes more important as the distance gets further.

I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I believe that from a bit south of Middletown, OH, Jeff regularly saw Lexington's WDKY-DT when it was on VHF channel 4. Now that they have moved to channel 31 (vacated by WKRC in Cincinnati as they moved to 12 post transition), I believe his ability to receive WDKY is much reduced.

There was also a fellow "up in the hollers" of Kentucky far away from any TV transmit towers, who filed with the FCC to keep WDKY from moving from 4 to 31, as WDKY on VHF 4 was the only major digital station he could receive reliably. Despite that, WDKY moved anyway and if I recall correctly he lost reception.

There is a lot of good info about this in the Lexington thread. Keep in mind that Lexington is traditionally a UHF-only market, as in, all of their analog stations were in the UHF band so people generally had UHF-only antennas. This made WDKY being the only station on VHF (digital or analog) a problem for many people.

jimp2244

08-12-09, 01:00 PM

Being able to DX Dayton stations from East Columbus is kind of my "poor man's" way of deciding if I have a good tuner or not. Tuner sensitivity is important, but also important, and perhaps more important in many situations is tuner selectivity and the ability to reject interference from multipath, impulse noise, etc. A good tuner will be able to allow steady decode of a signal despite all of that noise. If you think of a kindergarten classroom with kids talking, yelling screaming, slamming things around, and then trying to listen to an adult yelling something to you from across the room, this is the job of the tuner. Some people are better than others at ignoring all that background noise and clutter, and in the same way some tuners are better than others.

Also, the same tuner technology can be used in many different devices. For example, I believe the Zenith converter boxes have a 5th gen (or is it 6th?) LG tuner (not taking the time to look this up so I could be wrong). That 5th gen LG tuner is extremely good. One of my HTPC cards is a DVICO Fusion 7 which has what they are calling the XC5000 tuner chip. I've found this to work very well also.

As far as experiments for rating tuners, one of my current favorites is ability to decode a channel with the antenna mis-aligned. If I have my antenna set to point at Dayton, my Zenith Converter boxes, Samsung TV, and Fusion 7 HTPC card can still decode all of the Cincinnati stations. My Hauppauge USB stick tuner will decode them somewhat but not very well. My old ATI HDTV wonder HTPC card though will not even "see" the Cincinnati stations, let alone decode them.

Splicer010

08-12-09, 02:04 PM

If I have my antenna set to point at Dayton, my Zenith Converter boxes, Samsung TV, and Fusion 7 HTPC card can still decode all of the Cincinnati stations. My Hauppauge USB stick tuner will decode them somewhat but not very well. My old ATI HDTV wonder HTPC card though will not even "see" the Dayton stations, let alone decode them.

That is not a good tuner at all then; so I must ask why even have it???

jimp2244

08-12-09, 03:06 PM

DaveA28

08-13-09, 07:06 PM

Anyone else hearing crackling in the audio on channel 12 this morning?

Today, between 6:45 and 7pm during the CBS Evening news, I heard frequent short audio dropouts. Some also occurred during the national commercials, but none during the local news promo and I havent noticed any yet during Inside Edition. I'm on TWC on the Amelia headend. I heard them on the HD channel thru the cable box, and on another older analog TV hooked up directly to the cable.

XmtrMan

08-13-09, 07:19 PM

Today, between 6:45 and 7pm during the CBS Evening news, I heard frequent short audio dropouts.

The audio problem was being shipped to us by CBS on both the primary and backup feeds.

They're "working on it".

emery_r

08-13-09, 07:32 PM

Today, between 6:45 and 7pm during the CBS Evening news, I heard frequent short audio dropouts. Some also occurred during the national commercials, but none during the local news promo and I havent noticed any yet during Inside Edition. I'm on TWC on the Amelia headend. I heard them on the HD channel thru the cable box, and on another older analog TV hooked up directly to the cable.

Same thing during CBS Evening News on TWC in the Hamilton area.

ThoraX695

08-13-09, 07:51 PM

The audio problem was being shipped to us by CBS on both the primary and backup feeds.

They're "working on it".

They're working on that while you guys at WKRC are working on a new logo (http://ohkyintristatemedia.blogspot.com/2009/08/wednesday-update-woxy-staying-on-917-hd.html). Classic. Simple. Straightforward. I thought I saw a van with the new logo on the side a week ago driving up I-71...

microbob

08-13-09, 08:21 PM

Any plans on adding Dolby Digital Audio? It would be nice to hear the network feeds in Dolby Surround.

ShaneWKRP

08-14-09, 11:25 AM

robertjchambers

08-14-09, 11:25 AM

Splicer010

08-14-09, 12:11 PM

Hi everyone,

We did some upgrades on our digital encoding equipment this morning, upgrades I've been hoping to get done for a little while now. Without getting too technical, our signal should now have dramatically improved compatibilty with more set-top boxes and digital TV sets. Various TVs and converter boxes, especially older ones, should now have an easier time locking onto our signal and properly identifying our subchannels, program guide, etc. I'm hoping this will provide further increased signal stability for some of our viewers who are a bit further out-of-town, or who have local interference, a weaker indoor antenna, or whatever obstacle.

If anyone notices an improvement or any kind of change, give me a heads-up!

Thanks a lot and happy viewing,

-Shane

Sounds like a plan...For some reason on my LG 3510a if I direct tune 25-3 I need to input on the remote 025-3...But the signal ALWAYS comes up at NO SIGNAL...So I tune 047-3 and RTV comes up and the 3510 immediately remaps to 25-3...

While that could be an anomoly of the 3510a it does not happen on any other channel...Also I watch Emergency! daily @ 1PM (I'm home from work recouperating from an operation) and for no reason what so ever the channel will switch to 47-1...No rhyme nor reason...I can switch back to 25-3 easily but to have it switch by itself is rather weird...I just thought you guys were doing something at the headend messing with the decoder/encoder or something...Again this only occurs with your channel...

Now since your most recent post I tried to manually go to 25-3 and I still get NO SIGNAL but when I go to 47-3 it comes on and is remapped to 25-3...I honestly don't recall this anomoly happening before you had the antenna issues though I could be wrong since I wasn't home daily and didn't watch your station daily...

Anyway I just thought I'd let you know what is happening here...Signal strength/quality never seem to waver when these things happen and are rock solid at all times with a good level so that isn't the issue...

Splicer010

08-14-09, 12:15 PM

Has anyone noticed audio distortion issues with WKRC? I've noticed it on my Samsung LCD, through both my Samsung TWC DVR and Over-the-air, as well as on my older Sony on TWC analog. It's almost as if their audio gain is too high, especially during their local news. Problem is not as bad during network programming, but still noticable. WHIO and WBNS don't have this issue.

Any thoughts?

I seem to have noticed it on the surround speakers as of late but not during the news...Commercials sometimes but not the news...We'll see tonight since the Bungals are playing...I watched David Letterman last nite w/Paul McCartney and the 2 channel audio was clean...

When the hell is WKRC going to realize it is the 21st century and have REAL Dolby Digital 5.1 instead of this 2 channel crap???:mad:

ShaneWKRP

08-14-09, 12:19 PM

Sounds like a plan...For some reason on my LG 3510a if I direct tune 25-3 I need to input on the remote 025-3...But the signal ALWAYS comes up at NO SIGNAL...So I tune 047-3 and RTV comes up and the 3510 immediately remaps to 25-3...

While that could be an anomoly of the 3510a it does not happen on any other channel...Also I watch Emergency! daily @ 1PM (I'm home from work recouperating from an operation) and for no reason what so ever the channel will switch to 47-1...No rhyme nor reason...I can switch back to 25-3 easily but to have it switch by itself is rather weird...I just thought you guys were doing something at the headend messing with the decoder/encoder or something...Again this only occurs with your channel...

Now since your most recent post I tried to manually go to 25-3 and I still get NO SIGNAL but when I go to 47-3 it comes on and is remapped to 25-3...I honestly don't recall this anomoly happening before you had the antenna issues though I could be wrong since I wasn't home daily and didn't watch your station daily...

Anyway I just thought I'd let you know what is happening here...Signal strength/quality never seem to waver when these things happen and are rock solid at all times with a good level so that isn't the issue...

Thanks for the post. Re-scan if you haven't already. I'm guessing you'll have uniform results after that. Keep me posted!

Lost It All

08-14-09, 02:53 PM

Using a Dish Network VIP622 (locals OTA), and channel 12 WKRC in Cincinnati went from never any problems to always giving me no signal and showing 0% signal strength. I rarely tune into channel 12 so I'm not sure how long it has been gone. Now with football back I need to get it going asap. All my other OTA channels work fine. Could this have anything to do with the "digital switch"? Any ideas or suggestions how to get it back?
Many thanks!!!

ShaneWKRP

08-14-09, 04:01 PM

Lost It All

08-14-09, 04:02 PM

A rescan of locals worked, disregard my previous post. I'll check, I don't think I am getting the 25's.

After checking, I am not getting the 25's. I'm assuming I should?

emery_r

08-14-09, 06:04 PM

Sammer

08-15-09, 02:00 PM

Safe to assume Ch. 38 analog is gone forever? It disappeared, what, a week or more ago without any fanfare. Thought it would at least get a mention in the local media as a final death knell for analog TV in Cincinnati -- but never saw a single word anywhere!
Guess the real question for Block Broadcasting is what and when are their plans for channel 20?

Nitewatchman

08-15-09, 04:50 PM

I believe that from a bit south of Middletown, OH, Jeff regularly saw Lexington's WDKY-DT when it was on VHF channel 4. Now that they have moved to channel 31 (vacated by WKRC in Cincinnati as they moved to 12 post transition), I believe his ability to receive WDKY is much reduced.

I'm actually about 5 Miles North of Middletown, right on Butler/Montgomery County line ... To say it another way, about 10 Miles Directly West of I-75 at the Springboro/Franklin(SR 73) Exit , or about About 3~4 Miles or so West of Carlisle ....

I don't see WDKY as often on 31 as I did on 4, but like WTVQ, WUPX, WLJC and the Columbus DT's, It doesn't take much tropo enhancement to decode WDKY solidly, and I am seeing them quite often ....

Nitewatchman

08-15-09, 05:09 PM

If anyone notices an improvement or any kind of change, give me a heads-up!

I notice WOTH-LD's TVCT is no longer in Multiple sections .... As, a Xport PSIP dump(attached text file) now shows info on all 4 channels, previously, Xport would only process and provide info for the first section of the TVCT, and thus only the data for 25.1 ...

I also notice My Zenith HDV420 receiver is now for the first time actually making use of the TVCT Major/Minor channel Numbers -- In other words, for the first time, it's now Mapping the channels/displaying the WOTH channels to the user as 25.1, 25.2, 25.3, 25.4 , rather than 47.1, 47.2, 47.3, 47.4 as has allways been the case on it previously ....

I've been speculating that the reason why the HDV420 wouldn't "map" to 25.x (and yet all my other receivers mapped it to 25.x just fine, and the HDV420 mapped to VC's for all other stations I've receved -- All of which I checked were NOT sending TVCT in multiple sections) may have been because, perhaps HDV420 doesn't properly support TVCT's in multiple sections(although it probably should), and thus was basically ignorning the TVCT info given WOTH-LD's TVCT was previously being sent in multiple sections ....

Given WOTH-LD's TVCT is apparently no longer in multiple sections and the Zenith HDV420 IS now mapping to the Major/Minor channel #'s (25.1 ~25.54) -- It seems it's possible my speculation may have been correct ....

Update: Oh -- Disregard The "program 5" info you see in 2nd line of the attached text file -- It's there Only because I told xport to demux "program 5", because I didn't actually want to demux anything and because there actually is no "program 5" from WOTH-LD, I just wanted to do a dump of WOTH-LD's PSIP info to a text file ...

plughplover

08-16-09, 04:36 PM

From ThinkTV website:
On July 23, Time Warner Cable informed southwestern Ohio’s public television stations, CET and ThinkTV16 & 14 that the Cincinnati and Dayton cable systems would be making programming and channel changes beginning on August 25. The changes include significantly cutting the number of public television channels available to Time Warner customers.
(KET is also taking a hit)

So, basically TWC let them know a month before the planned action.

Finding detail is hard but what I've been able to find is:

Dayton Daily News:
Time Warner plans to drop seven of the 16 public TV channels offered to Dayton cable customers and eight in the Cincinnati market on Aug. 25 as it realigns its lineup.

From what I can gather, in Cincy one of the ThinkTV *analog* cable signals (WPTD) will be dropped, and the analog KET1 signal (WCVN). It has also been reported we'll get another shopping channel.

Folk using the clear-qam DTV signals off cable (and/or twc digital settops) will see the greatest impact, with about half the PBS feeds disappearing.

Cincinnati Enquirer:
Time Warner will cancel six public TV channels from its more popular digital level - CET's Kids channel, plus WPTO-TV in high definition and all digital multicast channels.
(The article says "WPTO" but I suspect they meant "WPTD", given the analog lineup changes.)

Splicer010

08-16-09, 05:19 PM

How you been plughplover??? Long time...Hows your QAM holding out??? Any more issues???

I was watching PBS 14 and they ran a commercial spot stating this very thing...This is all due to the multichannel-same programming conundrum that plagues the PBS stations...However 14 and 48 are working in conjunction to ensure no 2 channels show the same programming at the same time...

I find this both a postive and a minus as there are times say Soundstage is on...One channel will be SD while another is HD...I always search for the HD version be it from 14 16 48 or 54...This also enforces my thinking I made a wise decision to drop the QAM feed which really added nothing and actually detracted things like a program guide and staying with OTA...I really am very happy...I sure as hell don't want/need another shopping channel...I have a jewelery shopping channel already on 25-4 and that is more than sufficient in my opinion...And thats another thing...Going OTA gives me 4 additional channels unavailable on TWC and i am very happy with that...It is like an exclusive bonus for those NOT using cable...

Thanks for the post. Re-scan if you haven't already. I'm guessing you'll have uniform results after that. Keep me posted! I'll let you know in a day or so...I have rescanned a few times already...Might be a glitch...I also have another LG tuner coming and I will experiment with that when it gets here late this week I expect...Thanks for the reply...

robmadden1

08-17-09, 02:37 AM

At 2:37am with my radio shack Indoor antenna (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2131034) here in Dellhi on top of the hill by Neeb and Rapid Run I am getting:
2.1-.2
4.1
6.1-.2
7.1-.2
9.1-.2
12.1-.2
14.1-.5
25.1-.4
42.1-.5
43.1-.5
48.1-.2
54.1-.4
59.1
64.1

jes92

08-17-09, 10:02 AM

I'm getting WOTH-25 with the Terk indoor unamplified UHF/VHF antenna at Eastgate. The antenna has to be in a certain spot with the UHF component pointed straight up ("Christmas tree" configuration) for the station to be viewable.

I very much appreciate the CFL games on 25.1. I've been a CFL fan since the early '80s, when ESPN showed it. I'm glad the issues with switching at the end of the three-hour block have apparently been fixed. Last week, the end of the Tiger-Cats/Eskimos game was cut off. This weekend, there were problems picking up the start of both the Friday night (Lions at Argonauts) and Sunday night (Tiger-Cats at Roughriders) games. A crawler was run to inform viewers that there were technical difficulties, and the games were picked up partway through the first quarter. Any idea what the problem was, and is it fixed?

Splicer010

08-17-09, 01:25 PM

What the hell happened to Emergency! on RTV today??? They have Airwlf on instead...I like Airwolf but I like Emergency! better during the noon hour...

Anyway the rescan didn't do anything...When direct tune I have to keyin 047-3...When scanning using the channel + or - then I can go to 25-3...Haven't seen if the channel swaps by itself yet or not...

I am interested in seeing how the new (used) tuner works out...

ThoraX695

08-17-09, 05:59 PM

What the hell happened to Emergency! on RTV today??? They have Airwlf on instead...I like Airwolf but I like Emergency! better during the noon hour...

I noticed that Airwolf at 9:00 PM has been replaced with I Spy. I can't believe Bill Cosby was that young once! :D

Splicer010

08-17-09, 06:08 PM

Well I haven't watched enough RTV to see if the channel still switches by itself but I DID find out what the problem was manually changing the channel...Apparently...and this seems rather recent...When I press 025 it will switch to 25 but in order to get the subchannels I have to input 025-003...So it seems that part is a STB anamoly but I still need to tackle the channel changing issue...

What makes it difficult is that I do not wish to watch Airwolf long enough to see what is going on...Emergency! was one thing but Airwolf is quite another...I did watch Wagon Trail the other day though and the channel didn't switch so who knows...

Tim Lones

08-17-09, 06:09 PM

Not in the Cincy area, but my local Canton LPTV that carries RTV had "Kate and Allie" instead of Jack Benny last night between 10 and 11..

Nitewatchman

08-17-09, 07:04 PM

Finding detail is hard but what I've been able to find is:

Some possibly (or possibly not) related info here :

http://www.current.org/dtv/dtv0909cable.shtml

emery_r

08-17-09, 10:28 PM

I'm getting WOTH-25 with the Terk indoor unamplified UHF/VHF antenna at Eastgate. The antenna has to be in a certain spot with the UHF component pointed straight up ("Christmas tree" configuration) for the station to be viewable.

:D GLAD to know I'm not the only one who's discovered this interesting quick about the Terk antenna -- I was able to improve WOTH's signal greatly several months ago when they were operating at reduced power by turning the UHF portion of the antenna the same way, pointing straight up!

It seemed insane (to me), although Mr. Block at WOTH/WKRP seemed to confirm this could be possible, based on the technical details of their digital signal!

plughplover

08-18-09, 12:02 AM

Some possibly (or possibly not) related info here :

http://www.current.org/dtv/dtv0909cable.shtml
Perhaps - I indicated I thought there was a typo in that one article, but your link seems to indicate an 'analog or digital' choice. If that is the case, then:

WPTD is loosing it's analog feed but keeping the digital
WPTO is loosing it's digital feed but keeping the analog

The thing I don't get is why everyone (like your link) keeps saying you need a cableco settop, when all that's needed is a clear-qam capable TV tuner. The cableco's are not allowed to encrypt the OTA DTV feeds, are they?

robertjchambers

08-18-09, 08:52 AM

Seems to me like dropping WPTD altogether would be the way to go if they really need to drop any channels. WPTD and WCET typically carry the same primetime programming on their primary channel. If WCET and WPTO are working to make sure they are showing different programming, then I want WPTO in HD! TWC isn't cutting out the duplicate programming, they're cutting out everything else!

AFAIK, the cableco may not encrypt local channels on their system - they must be clear-QAM.

---

On another note, does anyone on this forum have Cincinnati Bell's FiOptics yet? They're coming to my neighborhood in a few weeks, and I'm wondering if it's going to be worth the switch. Internet is a no-brainer and pricing is fantastic compared to TWC, but their cable lineup looks just OK compared to TWC's (but they DO carry HDNET!)

Since they do access control on each home's individual fiber node, do they pass all the HD channels you pay for in clear QAM? That would definitely seal it for me, not having to have a STB to watch subscription HD channels.

gerhard911

08-18-09, 09:38 AM

See this post in the TWC thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16955453#post16955453).

HDtvaDict tried FiOptics but went back to TWC :eek: He thought the picture quality was subpar and hated the STB. He may be able to answer your question about clear QAM.

ShaneWKRP

08-18-09, 11:05 AM

I notice WOTH-LD's TVCT is no longer in Multiple sections .... As, a Xport PSIP dump(attached text file) now shows info on all 4 channels, previously, Xport would only process and provide info for the first section of the TVCT, and thus only the data for 25.1 ...

I also notice My Zenith HDV420 receiver is now for the first time actually making use of the TVCT Major/Minor channel Numbers -- In other words, for the first time, it's now Mapping the channels/displaying the WOTH channels to the user as 25.1, 25.2, 25.3, 25.4 , rather than 47.1, 47.2, 47.3, 47.4 as has allways been the case on it previously ....

I've been speculating that the reason why the HDV420 wouldn't "map" to 25.x (and yet all my other receivers mapped it to 25.x just fine, and the HDV420 mapped to VC's for all other stations I've receved -- All of which I checked were NOT sending TVCT in multiple sections) may have been because, perhaps HDV420 doesn't properly support TVCT's in multiple sections(although it probably should), and thus was basically ignorning the TVCT info given WOTH-LD's TVCT was previously being sent in multiple sections ....

Given WOTH-LD's TVCT is apparently no longer in multiple sections and the Zenith HDV420 IS now mapping to the Major/Minor channel #'s (25.1 ~25.54) -- It seems it's possible my speculation may have been correct ....

Update: Oh -- Disregard The "program 5" info you see in 2nd line of the attached text file -- It's there Only because I told xport to demux "program 5", because I didn't actually want to demux anything and because there actually is no "program 5" from WOTH-LD, I just wanted to do a dump of WOTH-LD's PSIP info to a text file ...

Thanks for the post, Jeff, and thanks for that text file. I'll have to scope it out when I get a chance later. Should be interesting. I think the results you're seeing are consistent with the improvements we made. Hopefully more people with various receivers will see better compatability just as you have. So far I've heard all good feedback, so I think we made the right move.

jes92

08-18-09, 12:41 PM

Link to an article regarding WCPO-9's power increase -- http://www.wcpo.com/news/local/story/FCC-Approves-WCPOs-Request-To-Boost-Antenna-Power/cTf6cRFx5kmIEqVF6kvM8Q.cspx

robmadden1

08-18-09, 01:36 PM

Link to an article regarding WCPO-9's power increase -- http://www.wcpo.com/news/local/story/FCC-Approves-WCPOs-Request-To-Boost-Antenna-Power/cTf6cRFx5kmIEqVF6kvM8Q.cspx

Still the same strength of 68-72 for me with my indoor antenna. No change what so ever in signal strength for me here in Delhi.

Trip in VA

08-18-09, 01:44 PM

I wouldn't expect a 1.7 dB increase to make a huge difference.

- Trip

Splicer010

08-18-09, 01:55 PM

But should be a noticeable difference none the less...

robmadden1

08-18-09, 01:56 PM

I just changed the length of the dipole antenta's for vhf and now 9 went from 68-72 to 73-76.

Splicer010

08-18-09, 02:12 PM

Well no channel changing today during Airwolf on CH25-3...I hope it is a sign of things to come...

As for CH7 Dayton when will they be finished...are have they finished...their antenna upgrade???

CH9 still has the audio dropouts and any power increase is not seen here...

robertjchambers

08-18-09, 02:30 PM

For anyone who still can't see WCPO, try putting in an FM trap (especially if you receive 12 WKRC well). Channel 10 (their RF channel) falls in the first harmonic of the 96-100MHz portion of the FM band. It's not a matter of WCPO having a weak signal, but fighting off interference from some of the strong FM signals in the area. In College Hill, it's the difference between getting 5% signal quality and 95-100% (I wish I had some real RF statistics, not my TV's signal meter) with an Antennacraft HBU22 in my attic.

robertjchambers

08-18-09, 02:32 PM

Another note: Radio Shack used to carry an FM Trap for roughly $4, but it is now discontinued. They might still have some in stock in the stores, though.

Paul210

08-18-09, 02:40 PM

Splicer010

08-18-09, 03:06 PM

Is there a list or can someone here post any and all FM harmonic interferences for ALL Cincinnati & Dayton stations???

jimp2244

08-18-09, 03:14 PM

As for CH7 Dayton when will they be finished...are have they finished...their antenna upgrade???I believe they are finished, based on the reports in the Dayton thread.

ThoraX695

08-18-09, 05:38 PM

I wouldn't expect a 1.7 dB increase to make a huge difference.

But it's a 47% increase! ;)

ThoraX695

08-18-09, 05:42 PM

Is there a list or can someone here post any and all FM harmonic interferences for ALL Cincinnati & Dayton stations???

It may not be the prettiest table, but it's a start:

87.5-89.9 MHz -> Channel 7
90.1-92.9 MHz -> Channel 8
93.1-95.9 MHz -> Channel 9
96.1-98.9 MHz -> Channel 10
99.1-101.9 MHz -> Channel 11
102.1-104.9 MHz -> Channel 12
105.1-107.9 MHz ->Channel 13

microbob

08-18-09, 06:13 PM

But it's a 47% increase! ;)

No change at my location. I still receive a strong signal on Channel 9.1 as before. Now if 64.1 could boost its signal I would be happy. I can't get them here at all until fall when the leaves are gone.

Splicer010

08-18-09, 06:31 PM

It may not be the prettiest table, but it's a start:

87.5-89.9 MHz -> Channel 7
90.1-92.9 MHz -> Channel 8
93.1-95.9 MHz -> Channel 9
96.1-98.9 MHz -> Channel 10
99.1-101.9 MHz -> Channel 11
102.1-104.9 MHz -> Channel 12
105.1-107.9 MHz ->Channel 13

Appreciate it ThoraX...:)

ThoraX695

08-18-09, 07:46 PM

Appreciate it ThoraX...:)

No problem. :) I just took the FM frequencies, doubled them (to generate the second harmonic frequencies), and found out what ranges overlapped the frequency ranges of the high-VHF channels.

Nitewatchman

08-18-09, 08:02 PM

Thanks for the post, Jeff, and thanks for that text file. I'll have to scope it out when I get a chance later.

Glad it may have been of some use, I do need to credit AVSforum member JSmar for a big part of that bit of detective work, as I wouldn't have thought about TVCT in multiple sections being a possible issue involved with the HDV420's processing of TVCT info without some of his input .....

Anyway --- That "after" text file may be of a little more interest with a "before" text file example to compare at as well ....I'd meant to also attach the "before" file in the earlier post , but couldn't dig it up earlier ... But Finally found it/scarfed it from a post I'd made in Denver Thread) , and have attached it to this post ...

The point of "before/after" interest being -- As you can see, the only thing you can see from the TVCT in the "before"(TVCT in multiple sections) file being the info for "25.1" (because Xport stopped processing the info after the first section) , and in the "after" file (TVCT no longer in multiple sections), you see the info for all 4 "channels" (25.1~25.4) ....

Also, FWIW here's a link to a bit of our discussion of this in a little more detail(among other things) a couple of months ago in Denver thread ...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16694605#post16694605

So far I've heard all good feedback, so I think we made the right move.

Good deal .... I must say -- Having been around, watching HD and DTV (OTA) from the local stations since 2001, and seeing many of the issues the full service stations have dealt with --- I've been really impressed with what you guys have have done so far , after only about 9 months on air!!!

jes92

08-18-09, 10:11 PM

I watched WCPO-9 OTA for a few minutes tonight. Here at Eastgate, I saw no dropouts with the Terk indoor unamplified UHF/VHF antenna with the rabbit ears fully extended at about 45° from vertical in a plane roughly perpendicular to the line from my antenna to the transmitting antenna. It seems that my reception of WCPO-9 is now as good or better than that of WKRC-12.

emery_r

08-19-09, 12:39 PM

As for CH7 Dayton when will they be finished...are have they finished...their antenna upgrade???

I'd been away this weekend, and missed the "grand opening" of their new-and-improved digital signal -- so the first thing I did when walking in the door early this morning was to check it out. They've DEFINITELY finished their work.

WHIO has now returned to the status of "most powerful Dayton signal" at my house on the west side of Hamilton. Clear as a bell.

I sent their chief engineer Chuck Eastman an e-mail to let him know how much improved their signal is, and his reply indicated they've seen nothing but positive comments so far. Hope this is the case for everyone who had shaky reception until now! :p

Splicer010

08-19-09, 01:11 PM

Thanks for the update...While I do indeed seem to get 'better' reception, unfortunately it is not nearly as stable as I would like it or need it to be to be worthwhile watching...More stable than before and is easily "Daytons most powerful station" as it is the easiest for me to receive out of all the Dayton stations...Looks like I am getting a rotor...Maybe...I want to see what this new(er) tuner does for me if anything...;)

ncincy1

08-19-09, 10:41 PM

Guess this is what Channel 9 and Channel 7 just did.....on a smaller scale.
Enjoy.

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/worlds-toughest-fixes/3564/Overview#tab-Videos/06097_00

ncincy1

08-19-09, 10:47 PM

But it's a 47% increase! ;)

WHIO now coming in at 100% signal strength from attic-mount antenna and up to 85% on bedroom indoor antenna.

Impressive.

Splicer010

08-20-09, 09:04 PM

Serious audio dropouts on WKRC this evening...Or is it just me??? Mainly on the commercials but during the game also...

My signal meter is bouncing around like crazy...NEVER below 75% and no higher than 90%...I have never seen the meter so active...Only on WKRC...WCPO is solid as a rock, no fluctuations (but still has the random occasional audio dropouts)...

On a happier note...Why did Chad kick the field goal??? He made it which is great but what happened to the Shane???

Splicer010

08-20-09, 09:08 PM

ThoraX695

08-20-09, 09:19 PM

Serious audio dropouts on WKRC this evening...Or is it just me??? Mainly on the commercials but during the game also...

It's not just you. I think it's WKRC's feed.

XmtrMan

08-20-09, 09:33 PM

It's not just you. I think it's WKRC's feed.

BINGO!

Problem is coming out of the production truck driving all of us nuts.
Stations running the game in other markets are reporting the same problem.

No idea why Splicer's "signal strength" is bouncing around...Steady as a rock here.

ThoraX695

08-20-09, 09:37 PM

Problem is coming out of the production truck driving all of us nuts.
Stations running the game in other markets are reporting the same problem.

Maybe they should get Ouchocinco to kick the truck... :D

jes92

08-20-09, 10:17 PM

enzytebob

08-20-09, 10:21 PM

I just wanted to add that in addition to what we've discussed, VHF does have some enhanced signal propagation attributes. For example, today in the Lexington thread a poster noted receiving your very WSYX in Winchester, KY which is about 15 miles ESE of Lexington, although he's having trouble decoding because they have a local station in Lexington on VHF 13 as well. Granted his reception today was most likely due to tropo, but still VHF can and does often "travel further" than UHF, especially when the curvature of the earth becomes more important as the distance gets further.

I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I believe that from a bit south of Middletown, OH, Jeff regularly saw Lexington's WDKY-DT when it was on VHF channel 4. Now that they have moved to channel 31 (vacated by WKRC in Cincinnati as they moved to 12 post transition), I believe his ability to receive WDKY is much reduced.

There was also a fellow "up in the hollers" of Kentucky far away from any TV transmit towers, who filed with the FCC to keep WDKY from moving from 4 to 31, as WDKY on VHF 4 was the only major digital station he could receive reliably. Despite that, WDKY moved anyway and if I recall correctly he lost reception.

There is a lot of good info about this in the Lexington thread. Keep in mind that Lexington is traditionally a UHF-only market, as in, all of their analog stations were in the UHF band so people generally had UHF-only antennas. This made WDKY being the only station on VHF (digital or analog) a problem for many people.

Thought this might be of interest:
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520183966

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520196137

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-1537A1.pdf

mikemikeb

08-21-09, 01:26 AM

Guess this is what Channel 9 and Channel 7 just did.....on a smaller scale.
Enjoy.

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/worlds-toughest-fixes/3564/Overview#tab-Videos/06097_00Watching that video, I felt like I was losing my footing. By the way, I was sitting down.

jimp2244

08-21-09, 07:53 AM

I'm also noticing the audio dropouts on WKRC-12, both on cable and OTA, mostly during commercials. OTA reception of WKRC is awful tonight here at Eastgate -- dropouts and pixelation every few seconds. WCPO definitely has WKRC beat for signal quality, at least at my location. It looks like WKRC needs a power boost -- either that or a move back to RF 31.WDKY has 31 now. WKRC can't move back there. OTA was not designed for indoor antennas. If you don't want the reception problems, then you need an outdoor directional antenna.

mlbUC

08-21-09, 12:33 PM

I noticed no issues on WKEF for audio last night (of the Bengals game). I'm not sure who said that other stations were seeing the same problem.

jes92

08-21-09, 03:48 PM

If you don't want the reception problems, then you need an outdoor directional antenna.

Not an option when you live in a condo. I get 2, 5, 7, 9, 14, 19, and 48 just fine with the Terk indoor antenna, so there's no excuse for 12.

Splicer010

08-21-09, 04:35 PM

I get CH12 stronger than CH9...You should move your antenna around and you might get CH64 also...

jes92

08-21-09, 07:21 PM

I get CH12 stronger than CH9...You should move your antenna around and you might get CH64 also...

I can get 64 and 25 with the antenna in just the right spot. I tried moving it some last night without much success. I was about to give up and go back to cable. If dropouts aren't too bad, I'd rather watch sports OTA, because the picture seems a lot better to me than it does on cable.

BTW, I also get 16, 22, 26, and 45 with a little work. I'd say they're all probably more difficult than 64, but easier than 25. I also get WWHO-53 (Columbus CW) fairly often, especially mornings. I also occasionally see WCHM-4, WBNS-10, and WTTE-28 (all from Columbus). This is all at Eastgate with the Terk unamplified indoor VHF/UHF antenna.

enzytebob

08-21-09, 07:22 PM

WDKY has 31 now. WKRC can't move back there. OTA was not designed for indoor antennas. If you don't want the reception problems, then you need an outdoor directional antenna.

For what it's worth, here is the text of the FCC's tentative approval of WSYX's change from Channel 13 to Channel 48:

(Full document here)
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...-09-1537A1.pdf

Before the
Federal Communications Commission
Washington, D.C. 20554
NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULE MAKING

Adopted: July 13, 2009 Released: July 15, 2009

Comment Date: [15 days after date of publication in the Federal Register]

Reply Comment Date: [25 days after date of publication in the Federal Register]

By the Chief, Video Division, Media Bureau:

1. The Commission has before it a petition for rulemaking filed by WSYX Licensee, LLC (“WSYX”), the licensee of station WSYX-DT, DTV channel 13, Columbus, Ohio. WSYX requests the substitution of DTV channel 48 for channel 13 at Columbus.

2. WSYX states that it is the only VHF station in the Columbus, Ohio, Designated Market Area, and that its current VHF DTV channel 13 has resulted in poor digital service when compared with the UHF stations in the market. WSYX concludes that grant of “the proposal will permit WSYX-DT to replicate the [pre-transition] analog service of WSYX(TV) on a UHF DTV channel, thereby allowing the station to maintain program service to the station’s [previous analog] viewers.”1

3. We believe that WSYX’s proposal warrants consideration. DTV channel 48 can be subbstituted for DTV channel 13 at Columbus, Ohio as proposed, in compliance with the principal community coverage requirements of Section 73.625(a) of the Commission’s rules,2 at coordinates 39-56-14 N. and 83-1-16 W. Since the proposed facility is located within the Canadian coordination zone, concurrence from the Canadian government must be obtained for this allotment. In addition, we find that this channel change meets the technical requirements set forth in Sections 73.616, and 73.623 of the Commission’s rules.3

We propose to substitute DTV Channel 48 for DTV Channel 13 for station WSYXDT at Columbus with the following specifications:

State and City DTV Channel DTV Power (kW) Antenna HAAT (m)
Columbus, Ohio 48 1000 286

4. Accordingly, we seek comments on the proposed amendment of the DTV Table of Allotments, Section 73.622(i) of the Commission’s rules,4 for the community listed below, to read as follows:

Channel No.
City and State
Present
Proposed

Columbus, Ohio
13, 14, 21, 36, *38
14, 21, 36, *38, 48

emery_r

08-22-09, 11:22 AM

I can get 64 and 25 with the antenna in just the right spot. I tried moving it some last night without much success. I was about to give up and go back to cable. If dropouts aren't too bad, I'd rather watch sports OTA, because the picture seems a lot better to me than it does on cable.

BTW, I also get 16, 22, 26, and 45 with a little work. I'd say they're all probably more difficult than 64, but easier than 25. I also get WWHO-53 (Columbus CW) fairly often, especially mornings. I also occasionally see WCHM-4, WBNS-10, and WTTE-28 (all from Columbus). This is all at Eastgate with the Terk unamplified indoor VHF/UHF antenna.

WWHO is licensed to Chillicothe, and in fact, their broadcast tower was almost literally in our backyard when we lived in that city in the late 1980's. (Made for INTERESTING problems with OTA TV and radio to live so close!) From current coverage maps, it looks like they now use a tower between Circleville and Washington Ct. House. It's significantly closer to the Dayton/Cincinnati area than towers for other Columbus-market stations, so no surprise it comes in better. I've even caught viewable blips from WWHO at my home on the west side of Hamilton, using a DTVPal box.

Splicer010

08-22-09, 11:49 AM

What actual channel is it???

On another note that is somewhat related but not really...I just ordered another 4 bay Antenna Craft UHF antenna instead of a rotor to pull in the Dayton stations...I am pleased none of the Dayton stations are VHF...I don't have to worry about any FM station interference at all being on the UHF band...I get no such interference with 9 or 12 which is great...So combining the new antenna with the existing 4 bay I am hoping works well...I envy those of you that are able to easily get both markets so easily...I live inbetween the 2 cities and one would think they would be easy to pull in...Not so...One or the other it seems...Well I want it all (who doesn't ;) ) with no fuss and no muss...But I don't want an antenna farm at my house either...

emery_r

08-22-09, 12:09 PM

Splicer010

08-22-09, 01:00 PM

Yes I was asking about WWHO...Thanks...

voyager6

08-22-09, 05:43 PM

voyager6

08-22-09, 05:45 PM

Splicer010

08-22-09, 05:54 PM

Channel Master 0549 is a VHF/UHF joiner as was pretty cheap, if you can find one. I have had one to join my UHF and VHF antennas and has worked well.

Thanks...I am using a Pico Macon UVSJ for my existing dual antenna setup...I will use a simple splitter to combine the 2 UHF antennas and feed the UHF side of the UVSJ...What sucks is I will be losing 3.5dB out of the signal from both antennas...I will have to see if I need an additional pre-amp as I already use 1...I -think- I should be OK but we shall see...

Splicer010

08-22-09, 07:35 PM

[rant on] THIS is the reason I ordered the 2nd UHF antenna...No football on in Cinti but on WHIO in Dayton...But the signal is not stable enough to watch so I am stuck with analog SD on cable...Beats a blank but I am spoiled and want my HD!!! TW out here doesn't even offer HD Dayton channels other than 16 (PBS)...This crap is what started my OTA motivation to begin with...Dayton often shows Da Bears while Cinti shows them rarely if ever...My wife & I love Da Bears so my quest continues...[/rant off]

ThoraX695

08-22-09, 08:29 PM

No football on in Cinti but on WHIO in Dayton...But the signal is not stable enough to watch so I am stuck with analog SD on cable...

The Browns are blowing out the Lions. So you're not missing much unless you bark and bleed orange and brown. ;) The Dayton Dragons are wiping the floor with some team from Michigan on 7.2.

In other news, I can finally get WHIO. I broke down and bought a tuner package for my Mac (EyeTV) and it's good enough to decode WHIO with few dropouts. (I'm working with a -8.5 dB noise margin from TV Fool and 5% signal strength. I'll see if I can get the other Dayton stations. So far, no luck!) Apparently the tuner in my main Samsung set isn't that good.

Splicer010

08-22-09, 09:14 PM

Yeah it was an amazing first quarter...I actually had stable enough reception to watch the beating take place but then the signal was gone and i have been watching on cable ever since...

What antenna are you using??? Indoors or out??? The one good thing is this should be the last weekend I have to deal with this as the new antenna should be here this week along with my new to me (used) LG 3100a tuner...I doubt it will do any better but you never know...At the price I got it for shipped it is worth having a spare ATSC/QAM tuner...And who knows...it might actually be better...

ThoraX695

08-22-09, 09:55 PM

What antenna are you using??? Indoors or out???

I have a Clearstream 4 mounted 35'-40' off the ground outdoors. There isn't a preamp either. I'm behind the Kenwood and Indian Hill hills, so getting Dayton is quite difficult. (WKOI is OK with a 12.4 NM, but the next strongest after that is WHIO with a -8.5. My previous strongest station before WKOI is WVCN with a 45.5 NM. WLWT tops the list with 71.1 NM.) I don't know if an overload-tolerant preamp (like the Winegard HDP-269) would help out or if I should upgrade again to an XG91 (and a separate antenna for Hi-VHF and UVSJ). We'll see what happens when tropo kicks up again and in a few months after the leaves fall off and see if that changes anything. If I do decide to get an XG91, I hope they would have a version cut for channels 14-51.

enzytebob

08-23-09, 01:12 AM

This may also be of interest to people frustrated with their VHF signals:

KTVT Moves to UHF Seeking Power Boost

Dallas' CBS-affiliate KTVT will begin transmitting a stronger digital signal beginning Tuesday, Aug. 4 at 11 a.m., hopefully satisfying the thousands of viewers who have been frustrated with their access since the June 12th transition from analog to digital.

On July 16th, the station petitioned the FCC to obtain a new frequency, citing widespread dissatisfaction among viewers. According to Dallas-based TV critic Ed Bark, the petition also included Nielsen research which indicated a prime-time ratings drop of 57% from the pre-digital week of June 1st to the post-digital week of June 22nd. But among viewers with digital-friendly cable, the drop-off was just 1.9 percent, CBS11 says.

According to KTVT's press release, the problems have been attributed to factors including outside interference, insufficient signal strength (which is regulated by the FCC) and inadequate antennas. The majority of complaints came from viewers who use "rabbit ears" or other antenna systems to get their digital signal.

KTVT advises that cable and satellite TV subscribers should not be affected and do not need to take any action. However, viewers who receive their television signals via antennas will need to re-scan their converter boxes and/or digital TV tuners after 11 a.m. on Aug. 4 to receive the higher-powered signal on channel 11-1.

================

After DTV Switch, VHF/UHF Moves in Colorado, Wisconsin

In the wake of the digital transition, many stations are reporting reception problems on the high VHF band. TVTechnology reports on KKTV's (Colorado Springs) request to switch to UHF and a Wisconsin station's counter-intuitive desire to jump to VHF...

Gray Television, owner of KKTV in Colorado Springs, Colo., has asked the FCC to substitute its Channel 10 allotment with Channel 49 for KKTV in Colorado Springs in order to improve coverage. Many stations with VHF DTV channels received complaints about poor reception after the June 12 analog shutdown. The widely reported problems with VHF indoor DTV reception raised concerns that VHF channels may not be suitable for mobile DTV. More...

Despite the by now well-known reception issues that stations are having on the high VHF band, post transition, one UHF station wants to move to a VHF channel.

WWAZ License LLC the licensee of station WWAZ-DT Channel 44 in Fond du Lac, Wis., requested substitution of DTV Channel 5 for Channel 44 at Fond du Lac... WWAZ said the channel change will serve the public interest because it "will eliminate the technical requirement that the Station co-locate with Station WWRS-DT, Mayville, Wisconsin, to avoid adjacent-channel interference between the two stations." More...

ThoraX695

08-25-09, 07:25 PM

From the Lexington thread: WKYT has filed a petition with the FCC to move from channel 13 (926' 30.0 kW DA) to channel 36 (980' 1000 kW DA). Note that W36DG still has permission to flash-cut to digital on 36 up until 10/19/2009.

Trip in VA

08-25-09, 08:25 PM

Note that the directional pattern they've proposed on channel 36 has a deep null toward Cincinnati, presumably to protect WLWT-35.

- Trip

enzytebob

08-25-09, 11:49 PM

Note that the directional pattern they've proposed on channel 36 has a deep null toward Cincinnati, presumably to protect WLWT-35.

- Trip

Or, perhaps, to protect WTTE-36 as well?

Trip in VA

08-25-09, 11:50 PM

Wrong direction for WTTE. It's aimed squarely at WLWT.

- Trip

enzytebob

08-26-09, 11:16 AM

Wrong direction for WTTE. It's aimed squarely at WLWT.

- Trip

I'm surprised as I thought adjacent-channel interference wasn't such a big deal in the digital world. You're right about WTTE, though. Lexington is more than 170 miles away from Columbus so interference shouldn't be a problem. I think a good rule of thumb is that if you're a 3-hour drive away, there won't be any interference.

Trip in VA

08-26-09, 11:18 AM

Co-located adjacents are okay. It's when there's distance that there's a problem.

I'm not sure I buy into the FCC's strict protection of adjacent channels, but the rules are the rules.

- Trip

ansarar

08-27-09, 09:47 AM

I'm moving to Symmes Twp, close to the Fields Ertel shopping and traffic debacle. Technically it's west Loveland. I'm planning on putting my TV in the basement, in the area towards the front of the house which has no windows. There are 2 windows towards the back. I have a Terk HDTVa which has worked great from my Mason location.

What are the odds that this thing is going to work well down in the basement? One one hand, I'm closer to the towers. On the other, I'm a little underground. Any experiences?

Thanks in advance.

Bubster

08-27-09, 06:17 PM

gerhard911

08-27-09, 06:38 PM

http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/08/27/2055248
Which links to this Anandtech Article:
http://anandtech.com/weblog/showpost.aspx?i=637

This certainly doesn't bode well for people like me who can't use an outdoor antenna. :mad:

That will be the last straw in my tenuous relationship with TWC. Clear QAM is a distinct advantage over sat, they are idiots for not exploiting it further instead of trying to shut it down.

Force me to put a STB on every TV and I will switch to sat in a heartbeat.

robertjchambers

08-27-09, 07:49 PM

Ideal solution: Run FTTH, and employ access control on each individual node, allowing users to view all subscribed channels via ClearQAM.

Reality: No provider will make money doing this, so it will never happen.

gerhard911

08-27-09, 08:24 PM

I do not know what FTTH is, but if a subscriber is PAYING for the channels viewed, why do you think "No provider will make money doing this" :confused:

Surely the rental of STBs cannot account for the total profit margin.

Trip in VA

08-27-09, 08:34 PM

FTTH = Fiber To The Home.

- Trip

gerhard911

08-27-09, 08:35 PM

Having thought about it, does FTTH mean "fiber to the home" ? If so, why is this a requirement ?

It seems like all they need to do is put a simple IP gateway on your current connection. It passes the channels to which you are subscribed (in clear QAM) and blocks all others. Why (other than greed) is this not a feasible solution ?

Cable is giving up a very compelling advantage over sat by not exploiting clear QAM.

Splicer010

08-27-09, 08:42 PM

Force me to put a STB on every TV and I will switch to sat in a heartbeat.This makes no sense...:confused:

Sat is mandatory STB on every TV...;)

gerhard911

08-27-09, 08:56 PM

This makes no sense...:confused:

Sat is mandatory STB on every TV...;)

Ummm, yeah, thus the loss of advantage for cable. So I will switch for more HD and less $$$ since both options would now require a STB at every TV.

ritaohio

08-27-09, 10:06 PM

emery_r

08-28-09, 08:03 AM

Anybody from the Mason area with Time Warner cable getting WDTN on channel 990? I talked with TW support and they want to send a tech, but we didn't get WDTN before so I'm wondering if the channel is really there or if they forgot to turn it on?

I'm in Hamilton, not Mason, but WDTN is on 990 here this morning. You might try manually re-booting your box by unplugging it for about 30 seconds, then plugging it back in. That's worked for me in the past (and was recommended by their on-line live chat personnel) whenever I've had issues with channels that refused to display.

Now, I have a similar problem (one that rebooting hasn't fixed) -- a new channel appeared on 222, the CI Network -- I guess that means the "Crime Investigation Network". The program guide lists the schedule, but I can't get anything onscreen -- just a message that it's "unavailable -- try again later". Does anyone actually get this channel? :confused:
- - - -
EDIT: Just finished a session with TimeWarner's online live chat support, and my problem with CI Network on 222 was fixed after the technician (who claimed his name was "Harry Dawson") sent new instructions to my box. My own manual reboot hadn't fixed the problem. While waiting for his instructions to reset the box, I asked him where he was located, and no surprise, "Harry" is in India. So it goes... *sigh*

ncincy1

08-28-09, 05:41 PM

Looks like Cincinnati television market is now larger than Columbus. #33 vs. #34. Not sure where the gain came from :confused:

Dayton lost some ground (surprise) moving from #64 to #65.

http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/2009-2010-dma-ranks.pdf

Maybe they are related?

ncincy1

08-28-09, 05:45 PM

Splicer010

08-28-09, 05:57 PM

I posted the following at Satelliteguys.us:

Just thought I'd post my alternative to a rotor...This was considerably less expensive than a rotor and works very well...No waiting for a rotor to turn the antenna... I now reliably (so far) get every available OTA channel available to me that I care about receiving...This comes in super handy when in my DMA a home football game is blacked out due to lack of ticket sales like tonights game...Granted it is pre-season but it is still football... Well checking the listings I see the game IS on in another cities DMA...Gotta love it!!!

I just got the antennas situated this afternoon...I initially used a balun for each 4bay antenna going to a 2/w splitter used as a combiner (and cutting my signal strength in half) ad connected to the UHF side of my existing UVSJ...This made a mess on the mast...I had too many connection points that just weren't necessary in my opinion and I had questionable reception on 2 channels with 1 being ALOT worse than the other...

Today I removed 1 balun, the splitter/combiner. and 2 jumpers that ultimately wern't needed...I instead joined the antennas using a length of cat5e cable that I put fork connectors on after taking the 8 wires and joining them 4 wires per side to make 2 wires on either end...Connected to the antenna with no balun and ran it up the mast and connected to the connecton posts the balun was connected to and VOILA! I was back to my original signal strength from the primary antenna and the new antenna had added power for the secondary city reception...

While this may not work for everyone it has worked wonderfully for me (so far ) and may work for others that read this...So I now have a mini 'antenna farm' on my roof on one 10 foot mast...

ThoraX695

08-28-09, 10:47 PM

I posted the following at Satelliteguys.us:

Pretty cool. I'd call it an "antenna garden" instead of a farm. ;)

emery_r

08-29-09, 12:00 AM

I've had problems for several hours getting any signal for WOTH/25. Earlier, it was weak -- now I'm getting nothing. Anyone else?

jes92

08-29-09, 08:43 PM

I'm getting WOTH pretty well right now -- watching the Tiger-Cats vs. Eskimos CFL game.

emery_r

08-29-09, 11:12 PM

I'm getting WOTH pretty well right now -- watching the Tiger-Cats vs. Eskimos CFL game.

For some reason, my converter box had a brain burp and apparently started looking for RF 25 for WOTH instead of its actual RF 47. I didn't realize it until I happened to scan all the channels individually to see if any distant signals were coming in tonight, eventually hitting RF 47 -- and there was WOTH again!

As Emily Litella used to say on Sat. Night Live, "Never mind!" :rolleyes:

Bubster

08-30-09, 12:01 PM

As Emily Litella used to say on Sat. Night Live, "Never mind!" :rolleyes:

LOL, so, admitting to being an old fart eh? :p

ritaohio

08-30-09, 03:51 PM

Thanks for the info from Hamilton - I went ahead and plugged the cable directly into the TV instead of thru the digital box - and WDTN was there on digital channel 81.7. I noticed I was also missing EWTN, TBN, and 4 other channels we never watch so we didn't know we were missing them. The digital box seems to not "see" this channel 81. At least that's my guess.

Anyway, since WDTN is on 990 and 19.2 is on 994, seems possible that Time Warner is going to put 7, 22 and 45 on 991, 992 & 993? Maybe that could free up more analog channels for TW to add more HD? Just a guess.

emery_r

08-30-09, 04:08 PM

LOL, so, admitting to being an old fart eh? :p

...YES. A proud old (or oldish, anyway) fart who watched SNL right from the very first season! :D

I take it you're also a member of the same club, if remembering Gilda Radner as Emily Litella is the barometer... :rolleyes:

Bubster

08-30-09, 08:51 PM

...YES. A proud old (or oldish, anyway) fart who watched SNL right from the very first season! :D

I take it you're also a member of the same club, if remembering Gilda Radner as Emily Litella is the barometer... :rolleyes:

Yes, still trying to run laps around the cinder track like John Belushi (smoking cigs and eating doughnuts as my training regimen)...

My Hero! (http://www.livevideo.com/video/47A1B8DC63D44F5E9130278E2D07545D/little-chocolate-donuts.aspx)

Those were the days! :D

513Tech

08-31-09, 12:56 AM

Am i'm the only one here that don't receive channel 22 in DYT?

emery_r

08-31-09, 07:28 AM

Am i'm the only one here that don't receive channel 22 in DYT?

Well, for what it's worth, the FCC coverage map predicts you SHOULD receive Dayton's WKEF-22 in Western Hills:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1068934.html

Of course, these maps are all predicated on having an outdoor antenna at 25 or 30 feet elevation (I forget the precise number) -- are you using such an antenna, or indoor rabbit ears?

Nitewatchman

08-31-09, 09:16 PM

FYI, WSTR is back to sending 720p, first noticed it a little over a week ago ...

Also, W36DG has asked FCC for a 6 Month extension(until April 19, 2010) for their Digital Flash Cut CP :

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101331096&formid=337&fac_num=68075

And ... Speaking of applications to FCC .... The following has got to be one of the dumber things I've seen for around here, from an outfit called "Indiana Community Radio Corporation" -- An Application for a new LP digital station on channel 51, with Oxford, Ohio as Community of License :

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101331259&formid=346&fac_num=183006

The coordinates specified for the transmitter site are near Liberty In ......

It's for 15KW ERP, Non-directional antenna, 55FT HAAT (1040FT ASL, 65FT AGL) ... No way should that fly with WKEF on 51 ....

ThoraX695

08-31-09, 11:03 PM

Also, W36DG has asked FCC for a 6 Month extension(until April 19, 2010) for their Digital Flash

The reason they use is: "Legal reasons beyond station's control (e.g., litigation, international coordination)."

513Tech

08-31-09, 11:49 PM

Well, for what it's worth, the FCC coverage map predicts you SHOULD receive Dayton's WKEF-22 in Western Hills:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1068934.html

Of course, these maps are all predicated on having an outdoor antenna at 25 or 30 feet elevation (I forget the precise number) -- are you using such an antenna, or indoor rabbit ears?

I'm using an indoor antenna

ncincy1

09-01-09, 11:16 AM

I'm using an indoor antenna

Big difference. If you now receive channels 7, 2, and/or 16 from Dayton currently on your indoor antenna, you should be able to soon receive channel 22 when their power increase application is approved. This increase in signal strength will put them in the big leagues with the others from Dayton.

Note: Channel 45 still is the "weakest".....since Sinclair is trying to avoid bankruptcy, I don't see them applying for more power anytime soon. :)

blbrodbeck

09-01-09, 06:13 PM

ThoraX695

09-01-09, 06:33 PM

What frequency will Digital Ch. 36 use?

W36DG's permit says that they'll stay on channel 36.

513Tech

09-02-09, 02:47 AM

Big difference. If you now receive channels 7, 2, and/or 16 from Dayton currently on your indoor antenna, you should be able to soon receive channel 22 when their power increase application is approved. This increase in signal strength will put them in the big leagues with the others from Dayton.

Note: Channel 45 still is the "weakest".....since Sinclair is trying to avoid bankruptcy, I don't see them applying for more power anytime soon. :)

Channel 45 is the weakest I pick that up with ease along with Channel 26 but no Channel 22.

ncincy1

09-02-09, 08:26 AM

Welcome to the world of DTV - where nothing makes sense sometimes.

Case in point, WKEF (22), WBDT (26), and WRGT (45) ALL broadcast from the same tower/location. Of course, all are at varying heights, power levels, etc.

gamo62

09-02-09, 08:44 AM

Anyone know why the CW here in Cincinnati is NOT HD? Even though our Tivo shows HD programs, it's still 480.

ncincy1

09-02-09, 09:29 AM

Anyone know why the CW here in Cincinnati is NOT HD? Even though our Tivo shows HD programs, it's still 480.

Yep. Again, part of the unique world of DTV.

Most stations - like WKRC - who multicast (have more than one channel) use the majority of their bandwith for their HD "main" channel, i.e. money-maker. In this case that's WKRC-12.1 CBS.

They normally do not or will not sacrifice enough bandwith to offer both channels (CBS & CW) in HD so they go with the established product.

This is why many of us in northern Hamilton County were excited to receive WBDT channel 26 out of Dayton so we could watch The CW in HD.

Yes, all of the Tivo, DirecTV, Dish, Time-Warner, etc. guides will all show the program as being broadcast in HD. However, due to technical reasons the local station in Cincinnati broadcasts the network in 480i.

I'm sure someone on this board can provide you a more "technical" explanation.

:(

jimp2244

09-02-09, 09:41 AM

Yep. Again, part of the unique world of DTV.

Most stations - like WKRC - who multicast (have more than one channel) use the majority of their bandwith for their HD "main" channel, i.e. money-maker. In this case that's WKRC-12.1 CBS.

They normally do not or will not sacrifice enough bandwith to offer both channels (CBS & CW) in HD so they go with the established product.

This is why many of us in northern Hamilton County were excited to receive WBDT channel 26 out of Dayton so we could watch The CW in HD.

Yes, all of the Tivo, DirecTV, Dish, Time-Warner, etc. guides will all show the program as being broadcast in HD. However, due to technical reasons the local station in Cincinnati broadcasts the network in 480i.

I'm sure someone on this board can provide you a more "technical" explanation.

:(That's basically it. The only thing I would add is that there is an automated process for providing the listings, and since the shows are provided from the CW in HD, they show in the listings as such even though WKRC does not pass along the HD to us.

Dayton has the CW in HD (WBDT 26-1), but not MyNetworkTV (WRGT 45-2), and Cincinnati is the opposite - MyNet in HD (WSTR 64-1), but not the CW (WKRC 12-2). Living in most areas of either city though, it's generally possible to get the "missing" HD network with a good OTA setup. I've recorded Smallville for a buddy from WBDT for quite some time so he could watch in HD.

pjpjpjpj

09-02-09, 12:54 PM

jim tressler

09-02-09, 12:56 PM

75 miles is the limit - so dayton will be blacked out too

gamo62

09-02-09, 03:37 PM

It would be nice if Time Warner offered the Dayton CW to its Butler County subscribers. It shouldn't surprise me regarding WKRC's decision. Cincinnai channels are just odd. WCPO isn't broadcast in DD because of the old equipment.

Splicer010

09-02-09, 03:40 PM

WCPO isn't broadcast in DD because of the old equipment.:confused:WCPO DOES broadcast in DD...WKRC also is in DD but 2.0 DD...So I don't understand what you are trying to say...

Trip in VA

09-02-09, 05:17 PM

All OTA digital stations transmit in Dolby Digital (or are supposed to, anyway), it's a matter of whether it's DD1.0 (rare), DD2.0, or DD5.1.

- TRip

ThoraX695

09-02-09, 05:39 PM

All OTA digital stations transmit in Dolby Digital (or are supposed to, anyway), it's a matter of whether it's DD1.0 (rare), DD2.0, or DD5.1.

Our local Retro TV Network (WOTH, 25.3) broadcasts in DD1.0 because (according to one of their techs) the feed they get from the network is in mono, not stereo.

gerhard911

09-02-09, 06:27 PM

Am I the only one here who assumed the OP meant DD surround sound ?

Nitpickers, sheesh :rolleyes:

Splicer010

09-02-09, 06:56 PM

Am I the only one here who assumed the OP meant DD surround sound ?

Nitpickers, sheesh :rolleyes:

Mind quoting the "OP" please??? I don't believe pointing out that DD is being broadcast (in 5.1 nonetheless) for the station you identified (mistakenly) is being a "nitpicker"...:rolleyes:

gamo62

09-02-09, 08:12 PM

I was talking about DD 5.1. I would imagine they would have DD 2.0. But the other channels in the Cincy area (network wise) transmit DD 5.1. When does WCPO plan on upgrading their equipment?

513Tech

09-02-09, 09:46 PM

Splicer010

09-02-09, 10:52 PM

I was talking about DD 5.1. I would imagine they would have DD 2.0. But the other channels in the Cincy area (network wise) transmit DD 5.1. When does WCPO plan on upgrading their equipment?

Again I say unto you...WCPO IS transmiting in DD 5.1...WKRC transmits DD 2.0...So please quit writing that WCPO needs to upgrade anything...They are updated...

Bubster

09-03-09, 05:45 PM

Again I say unto you...WCPO IS transmiting in DD 5.1...WKRC transmits DD 2.0...So please quit writing that WCPO needs to upgrade anything...They are updated...
This reminds me... to this day I still cant get it through my head that WKRC 12 is CBS and WCPO 9 is ABC. It was the opposite for so long when I was growing up it's just embedded that way in my brain. From 1996 until now simply doesn't register! :confused:

Splicer010

09-03-09, 06:43 PM

This reminds me... to this day I still cant get it through my head that WKRC 12 is CBS and WCPO 9 is ABC. It was the opposite for so long when I was growing up it's just embedded that way in my brain. From 1996 until now simply doesn't register! :confused:

I hear ya...When I moved back to the area after living out of state for so long I was shocked...I'm better about it now but I am still finding that I have to think twice when associating ABC with CH9 and CBS with CH12...:o

voyager6

09-03-09, 07:37 PM

As the Bengals have sold out every home game since I moved back to Cincinnati 5 years ago, I haven't had to ask this, but in light of the bleak forecast for this coming season...

If the Bengals do not sell out a home game and the NFL blacks out the TV coverage on channel 12, is Dayton able to carry it (and do they)?

I did see today that the Steelers game just sold out. So at least we'll get to see one game on WKRC. But most others are still thousands of tickets away from being a sellout. :(

And it is iffy if Columbus stations will show it. WBNS, the Columbus affiliate, changes from Browns to bengals depending on the matchup and by who is having the better season. They play the game with higher potential viewership to be able to charge more for advertising. At least they have been honest about it.

jimp2244

09-03-09, 08:01 PM

Florence Freedom baseball is being shown on WXIX 19-2 currently. Very similar in quality to the Dayton Dragons games on WHIO 7-2. Don't recall seeing this mentioned previously, and so I'm not sure if this has been going on for a while or if this is something new.

microbob

09-03-09, 08:07 PM

In Lexington KY, WKYT last season showed the Indianapolis Colts. So that rules them out as a possible way to watch the games this season for viewers in the southern part of the blackout area.

jimp2244

09-03-09, 08:48 PM

Here is a list of likely "nearby" affiliates carrying the Denver at Cincinnati game in week 1 (assuming no blackout):

WYMT Hazard KY
WKYT Lexington KY
WKRC Cincinnati OH
WBNS Columbus OH
WHIO Dayton OH
WOHL-DT Lima OH
WTOL Toledo OH
WKBN Youngstown OH
WOWK Huntington WV
WDTV Weston WV
WTRF Wheeling WV

Bubster

09-03-09, 09:09 PM

Back in the late 70's/early 80's hotels would have package deals for Bengal fans to drive beyond the blackout range and enjoy the game on their hotel televisions. Back then I guess even if the team was doing well a sellout wasn't guaranteed.

I, for one, am glad Cincinnati fans are letting their wallets do the talking. Mike Brown really needs to retire and put the team in capable hands. It will be interesting to see how long they can be the laughing stock of the NFL and remain profitable enough to keep any owner motivated to stay in Cincinnati. At this rate I think they will be history within the next 10 years. Seems like Cincy really isn't a major league town any more. I recall how shocked and mad I was when the Royals packed up and left, and in reality, Cincinnati is more of a basketball town than a football town.

pjpjpjpj

09-04-09, 10:16 AM

I agree, Bubster (thoughts about Mike Brown). Combine his managing with the economy and you are not looking at many sellouts in the future. I have to figure that companies are sitting down with the budget and saying "where can we cut costs?", and in the past, they would get to the "Bengals season tickets" and say "can't cut those, too important to use to shmooze clients", but now, with the economy being tighter and the on-field product being much poorer, it's easier to say "I guess it's time to cut out the season tickets from the budget".

I imagine that the one sellout (Pittsburgh) is due to Steelers fans buying the tickets.

I discovered something interesting last night - an online streaming site I often use for college sports (channelsurfing.net) had all the NFL preseason games listed. In the past, they had always just been links to NFL TV's website, and would require you to pay. Last night, they were all live links. I watched a few minutes of the Colts-Bengals, and several other games (just to make sure all the links were indeed working). The quality is obviously lower (very grainy when blown up to full screen on my 17" laptop), but it was watchable (and better than nothing!). So it will be interesting to see if all the NFL games this year - specifically Bengals blackouts - will be available in this method.

jim tressler

09-04-09, 10:49 AM

if the bengals win a few games, they will sell out.. which will suck for us non bengals fans in the area..

jim tressler

09-04-09, 10:49 AM

you can also try justin.tv

Bubster

09-05-09, 04:09 PM

Damn, just looked at the OSU football schedule. It appears that without ESPN I'm not much of a fan anymore!

jimp2244

09-05-09, 06:33 PM

Damn, just looked at the OSU football schedule. It appears that without ESPN I'm not much of a fan anymore!
You can hope that, as in the past, the ABC/ESPN reverse mirror set up puts most of the OSU games on ABC in this region. As far as I'm concerned though, if they can't put it on local broadcast TV, I guess I'm not interested in watching.

skylab

09-05-09, 11:14 PM

The Ohio State vs. Toldeo game is scheduled for ESPN+, meaning that local broadcasters will have the chance to bid for the game. My guess is that WKRC, WHIO and WBNS end up with rights to the game.

As far as games not being available on OTA TV, they were for many years via ESPN+. Unfortunately, the ESPN+ games were always been in SD. The nice thing about the Big Ten Netowrk is that every game has been in HD. Plus the majority of the revenue stays with the colleges.

jimp2244

09-07-09, 08:46 PM

The NFL season is back!

We will get a total of 7 NFL games this week, all in HD! OTA-only viewers will get 5 games. Cable/Dish-only viewers will get 6 games. FOX has the double-header this week.

Thursday Night Football - NFL 2009 Season Kickoff:

8:30pm NBC (5 WLWT, 2 WDTN) Tennessee at Pittsburgh
Al Michaels, Cris Collinsworth, Andrea Kremer

Sunday Day Games:

1pm FOX (45 WRGT) Minnesota at Cleveland*
Thom Brennaman, Brian Billick

1pm CBS (12 WKRC, 7 WHIO) Denver at Cincinnati
Gus Johnson, Dan Fouts

4pm FOX (19 WXIX, 45 WRGT) Washington at NY Giants
Joe Buck, Troy Aikman

Sunday Night Football:

8:20pm NBC (5 WLWT, 2 WDTN) – Chicago at Green Bay
Al Michaels, Cris Collinsworth, Andrea Kremer
Note the new start time - 8:20pm versus 8:15

Monday Night Football:

7pm ESPN – Buffalo at New England+
Mike Tirico, Jon Gruden, Ron Jaworski

10:15pm ESPN – San Diego at Oakland+
Mike Greenberg, Mike Golic, Steve Young

+Cable Only
*Bonus game for OTA viewers
$ Requires pay-TV provider that carries NFL Network (none this week)

Notes:
The FOX early game is blacked out in Cincinnati. However, OTA viewers can avoid the blackout by watching WRGT 45 out of Dayton.

The Bengals game at 1pm on WKRC and WHIO is subject to the blackout rule which says that any station within a 75 mile radius, or whose signal penetrates that radius, cannot show the game. I'm not sure yet which other affiliates could/would be affected by a possible blackout as I'm not sure what the NFL uses to determine if a signal "penetrates" the 75 miles (FCC predicted coverage maps?).

**UPDATE 9/9**
I am still trying to determine what happens on WXIX if the Bengals are blacked out. My personal belief is that they cannot show a 1pm game even if the Bengals are blacked out. However I have seen conflicting information, some indicating that WXIX can show MIN/CLE at 1pm if the Bengals aren't on WKRC. If you are a Browns fan I would be either planning on watching WRGT or heading to a bar to watch Brett Favre. If I get some better information I would update this post.

Starting last season, all NFL games are produced in HD. All games will also be broadcast in HD with possible rare exceptions: Because of HD transport capacity limitations at CBS, there may be instances where a 4pm game will need to be in SD temporarily until 1pm games finish. Note that even this is unlikely to occur. Also, you may see halftime highlights on CBS in SD.

As always, let me know if any information is incorrect or needs to be updated.

Bubster

09-08-09, 11:18 AM

Once again my yearly thanks to jimp2244 for his excellent local pro footbal/tv schedule. I haven't had ESPN for almost a year now and I don't know if I can make it any longer. The $11.50 cable tv bill sure is nice though.

Paul210

09-08-09, 11:32 AM

Thanks, jimp2244!

Bubster,

I've found that a season's worth of bar tab for the games I absolutely must see (not available OTA) doesn't even amount to a month of cable. :D

Paul

Bubster

09-08-09, 11:41 AM

Yes, I was going to mention I could simply head to the local pub but sometimes nothing beats your own couch! :p

Jedi Master

09-09-09, 05:46 AM

Porphyro

09-09-09, 10:27 AM

I currently have the lifeline basic package from Time Warner and, along with that, have my tuner set up for all the Clear QAM stations. One thing I've noticed, and hope someone here can help with, is that all the HD stations seem to cut out for about 2 -3 minutes for each show. Then, after the drop, the signal is fine for the rest of the show. This invariably happens only once per program - but it always happens. I've checked the signal strength and there doesn't seem to be any problem there.

My question is whether it's possible that TWC is futzing with the signal in an attempt to get me back to the STB - where we never had this problem.

gerhard911

09-09-09, 11:12 AM

I record clear QAM from TWC a lot with an HD-Homerun and do not see the drop outs you are describing. However, I subscribe to a digital cable package and also have Roadrunner.

TWC could be doing something to the digital signal on your feed but it seems more likely to me that they would simply block it.

Cincy_Ron

09-09-09, 01:56 PM

jimp2244

09-09-09, 02:53 PM

Can anyone tell me if I would be able to reliably pick up Columbus OTA to watch the blacked out Bengals games? I'm in Ft. Thomas (41075), fairly high elevation with what should be a relatively clear shot toward Columbus to the NE. I've got plenty of mast material and a couple of nice rotors from the Ham radio days so I'd probably go up at least 20' above the roof with a tripod or chimney mount...
Highly doubtful that you would have any sort of reliable success. If you've got the time and cash to try it can't hurt though. Long range UHF antenna is what you would need to get WBNS 21 (remaps to virtual channel 10), perhaps something like XG91? Maybe even stacking two antennas. But again there is only so much you can do and I doubt you will get WBNS reliably no matter how much you do.

jimp2244

09-09-09, 03:02 PM

NFL week 1 post updated with new note

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17137721#post17137721

mjrusso45

09-09-09, 04:58 PM

Splicer010

09-09-09, 05:11 PM

Get the CW in HD on Dayton ch 26...

pjpjpjpj

09-09-09, 08:26 PM

Anyone know why the CinCW on 12.2 is not in HD? ANy specific reason, beyond cost? Is it HD on TWC? It's a bummer since I watch several shows (e.g. Two and a Half Men syndication) and it's just SD.

I have a big aerial on the house and I live in Fairfield, i may try to get the Dayton CW.Not that I have spent time researching the topic, but I have never heard of a station sending more than 1 channel in HD (almost always the "main" channel). It's a bandwidth thing.

Trip in VA

09-09-09, 08:28 PM

Not that I have spent time researching the topic, but I have never heard of a station sending more than 1 channel in HD (almost always the "main" channel). It's a bandwidth thing.

http://www.rabbitears.info/oddsandends.php?request=dualhd

It doesn't look particularly good PQ wise, but there are stations doing it.

- Trip

pjpjpjpj

09-09-09, 08:28 PM

I canceled my cable subscription last November. I just refuse to pay $89 a month for it which adds up to $1,068 a year. I now have HD OTA. I have two sources of ESPN. I'm lucky my AT&T DSL works with ESPN360.com. I watched a lot of college games on there over the weekend.

http://www.justin.tv/espn2k9

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/espn360/index
channelsurfing.net picks up a lot of the "justin.tv" feeds plus more. Between all of these, you should be good to go. I watched my alma mater last weekend on justin.tv, through VGA from my laptop to my 40" HDTV, and it actually looked decent from about 10' away on the couch.

Cincy_Ron

09-09-09, 10:27 PM

Highly doubtful that you would have any sort of reliable success. If you've got the time and cash to try it can't hurt though. Long range UHF antenna is what you would need to get WBNS 21 (remaps to virtual channel 10), perhaps something like XG91? Maybe even stacking two antennas. But again there is only so much you can do and I doubt you will get WBNS reliably no matter how much you do.

Thanks Jimp, that's about what I was thinking I would need, some type of long boom yagi possibly with a gasfet pre-amp. I'm not sure if I have enough elevation here for line of sight. I'll see what I can dig up on the web, I know there are path loss and elevation calculators out there. Might not be worth messing with though...

enzytebob

09-10-09, 12:15 AM

Can anyone tell me if I would be able to reliably pick up Columbus OTA to watch the blacked out Bengals games? I'm in Ft. Thomas (41075), fairly high elevation with what should be a relatively clear shot toward Columbus to the NE. I've got plenty of mast material and a couple of nice rotors from the Ham radio days so I'd probably go up at least 20' above the roof with a tripod or chimney mount...

Try this thread. He says his sister reliably gets WBNS in Centerville with his "prescription". I know Ft. Thomas is farther, but you never know. You might also try WOWK in Huntington, which might be closer to you.

http://www.highdefforum.com/local-hdtv-info-reception/14818-tigerbangs-prescription-deep-fringe-reception.html

jimp2244

09-10-09, 07:32 AM

Not that I have spent time researching the topic, but I have never heard of a station sending more than 1 channel in HD (almost always the "main" channel). It's a bandwidth thing.WKYT in Lexington did it for a while - had CBS and CW both in 720p. Lots of complaints about the picture quality though.

Get the CW in HD on Dayton ch 26...Yes - shouldn't be hard from Fairfield.

mjrusso45

09-10-09, 08:16 AM

Yes - shouldn't be hard from Fairfield.

Indeed. I tried it last night. I actually get a better signal from 26 in Dayton than from 12.2. Goodbye CinCW.

Cincy_Ron

09-10-09, 09:45 AM

Try this thread. He says his sister reliably gets WBNS in Centerville with his "prescription". I know Ft. Thomas is farther, but you never know. You might also try WOWK in Huntington, which might be closer to you.

Excellent! Thanks for the link. I'm actually registered on that forum for some reason. Must have looked in to OTA HD reception at some point. Came across a link to TVfool.com which allows you to put in your address and it loads a terrain and transmitter database and give you a good idea of what you can pick up. Just what I was looking for. Columbus from my location at around 97 miles looks to be doable only via Tropo. Oh well...

jimp2244

09-10-09, 01:13 PM

The 72 hour deadline for a Bengals sell out has passed at 1pm today.

As of right now, the Bengals game against the Broncos this Sunday has not sold out. There are apparently 4,000+ tickets still unsold. Enquirer is reporting that the game is likely to be blacked out, but updated information at Bengals.com is reporting that the NFL has granted an extension until 1pm on Friday.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090909/SPT02/909100356/1066/Will+Bengals+game+be+off+the+air?

http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/NFL-grants-ticket-extension/fc2bd902-09a7-45bd-af9b-2e38b98a7500

The affiliates that would be blacked out in the case of a non sell out are:
WKRC - Cincinnati
WKYT - Lexington
WHIO - Dayton

WBNS (Columbus) would be the closest option. WLKY (Louisville) will do you no good as they're airing the Colts game either way.

Edit/Update: And now the Enquirer has also reported the extension until Friday at 1pm:

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/bengals/2009/09/10/bengals-get-24-hour-extension/
Bengals ticket manager Andrew Brown continued the weeklong line of saying “a few thousand” seats are still available. When pressed, Brown did say less than 5,000 seats remained but had no comment when asked if under 4,000 were left.

skylab

09-10-09, 03:19 PM

FYI - for those who have directv, directv is offering a free preview of its sunday ticket this weekend, which means directv viewers will be able to catch every game (with the possible exception of the bengals as noted above).

Splicer010

09-10-09, 06:49 PM

With probable exception of the Bungals more likely being the case...;)

Sea Ray

09-10-09, 07:10 PM

Highly doubtful that you would have any sort of reliable success. If you've got the time and cash to try it can't hurt though. Long range UHF antenna is what you would need to get WBNS 21 (remaps to virtual channel 10), perhaps something like XG91? Maybe even stacking two antennas. But again there is only so much you can do and I doubt you will get WBNS reliably no matter how much you do.

I was going to ask the same thing but I'm talking about the Sharon Woods area of Cincinnati. My parents live there and they have an outdoor antenna with a rotor. Think it's worth a try or not likely?

ThoraX695

09-10-09, 07:17 PM

Here's a fun article about RTV I found on the Nashville thread: Back from Basic (http://businesstn.com/content/200909/back-basic).

rmousir

09-10-09, 08:13 PM

Hey all,

I have been very pleased with my reception as of late with one exception. 9.1 which came in the best after they boosted there signal is now some what choppy. What is the deal with them? Anyone know? I have made no changes since long before the power boost. Never had a problem. My weakest channel was 64.1 that came in depending on the weather. I want 9.1 to come in crystal again now that my new shows are starting up.

Splicer010

09-10-09, 08:30 PM

Things are changing...You could have a bad connection between the antenna and cable...There could be a problem with the antenna itself...You may just need to rescan once or twice...Could be a multipath issue...LOTS of possibilities...

robmadden1

09-10-09, 10:17 PM

The NFL, bracing for an uptick in TV blackouts this season, plans to use its website to rebroadcast those games on a delayed basis.

Games that are blacked out in home-team markets will be shown in their entirety for free on a delayed basis on NFL.com. The rebroadcasts will be available beginning at midnight on the day of the game and will remain on the site for 72 hours, except during "Monday Night Football" telecasts.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-nfl-blackouts11-2009sep11,0,1023339.story?track=rss

enzytebob

09-11-09, 12:31 AM

Excellent! Thanks for the link. I'm actually registered on that forum for some reason. Must have looked in to OTA HD reception at some point. Came across a link to TVfool.com which allows you to put in your address and it loads a terrain and transmitter database and give you a good idea of what you can pick up. Just what I was looking for. Columbus from my location at around 97 miles looks to be doable only via Tropo. Oh well...

WOWK in Huntington is back to Channel 13. I think if you find the post about Tigerbangs' sister's set up in Centerville, if you get this particular antenna you should be able to pick them up. He speaks very highly of the Wade-Delhi brand.

Here's the link:

http://www.highdefforum.com/167968-post43.html

"Um, I think you may have misinterpreted the measurements: the YA-1713 Winegard Yagi has 10.3 DB gain at channel 13: that should be plenty of gain for your needs, especially if you use a preamp. My sister lives in Centerville, near Dayton, and I installed a Wade-Delhi VU-936SR without a preamp at her house, and she picks up WSYX-DT just fine and she's quite a bit further than you are from their signal!"