Great news!! Thanks for the update. Next time you talk to Chris, ask him if he used to be in a local band.

Yea, also ask if there is an update when they will be on Time Warner Cable. :)

Can anyone offer advice on antenna selection and installers in the area? I'm in Loveland (near fields-ertlel/montgomery). I can pickup 5 and 9 plus the pbs stations with my old terk antenna on my satellite dish. 19 comes in spotty and 12 not at all. I was thinking about the winegard square shooter as I don't want anything big. I'm inside 22 miles of about everything according to antenna web.

thanks

J

I can't recall the name of the place, but seems like a couple of folks have reported in the past that a installer on the East side(maybe Milford?) did a good job for them. Hopefully one of those folks can chime in.

As for antennas, I suppose you could try something like the squareshooter If you want - It MIGHT work ok -- but personally, I would recommend a more conventional, Small~medium size VHF/UHF combo antenna(mounted outdoors and aimed towards the towers of course) which would offer better peformance.

On the smaller end of those would be RS VU-90, CM 3016 or similarly sized Winegard antennas(which many installers seem to prefer), such as Winegard PR-5646(specs+pic of it here in PDF format : http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/pr-5646.pdf ). Or, I suppose at that distance you could also try a UHF only antenna such as the CM4221 4 Bay bowtie, hard to say, but you MIGHT still get enough from VHF WCPO-DT 10(9-x remap) with it or other antennas such as the squareshooter which are UHF antennas, but, if you need decent analog reception from 5,9,12 that might not be such a good idea.

goheelz,call Advanced Antenna in Milford 831-6944.

goheelz,

Are you looking to pick up digital, analog, or both? I am in Liberty Twp, and about 22 miles (per antennaweb.org) to the transmitters, and I started with a Terk TV-44 and picked up all Cinci digital stations and some Dayton digital. I didn't like having to diplex it over my satellite runs, so I went with the Square Shooter w/pre-amp. That worked very well, with only very small (like 1/2 second) breakup on channel 9 (10) a few times an hour. All of the UHF channels were perfect. Because I like to tinker, I bought a ChannelMaster 4221 (UHF) w/7777 pre-amp and I found a deal online for a Antennacraft CS600 (VHF) and mounted them in my attic on Friday. My receiver says that the signal quality is in the 90s for all Cinci channels. I watched Boston Legal last night and had one 1/2 second breakup during the whole show. Maybe my house is in an area where I can't get VHF perfect, or maybe I am just to nit-picky but I am happy now and think this is going to be my final solution--especially since it is hidden in my attic and that keeps the wife happy.

Also, I have a friend that has some big-a$$ RatShack VHF/UHF antenna in his attic with a post amp and he is in Morrow, so probably 10 miles north of your Location and he gets all of the Cinci digital stations very well-but still has a few times of breakup on channel 9 digital. He took my pre-amp to see if that will get him perfect.

Hope this helps. I am going to list my SS-1000 on e-bay, but if you are interested let me know.

Haggis444

I'm just looking for digital channels. My new sony has a builtin OTA HD tuner. I have directv currently and would like to get the major networks in HD.

well.. wcpo-dt looks like crap again tonight.. jaggies all over.. a$$holes! pi$$es me off.. well I guess its time for another email.. should I keep it positive like the last 7 or should I get nasty?

a pi$$ed off jim

PQ is good on WKEF but they have the usual dropouts. Funny how it never drops out during commercial breaks, just when a receiver is about to catch a pass. ;)

lol.. i forgot to spin the antenna - so I am suck with crapcpo!

Just curious about how MNF looked last night. I saw it in ultra-super-definition, in person. My throat is numb from screaming. I spent most of the night in pleasant disbelief. Now I'm considering, how do we get a HD-replay for the 65,800 souls who want to relive the night?

wcpo looked jaggie and crappy as always

I thought the MNF HD PQ on WKEF-DT Dayton was excellent, and for the most part their video freezes problem didn't occur during any plays, unless I missed it during a trip to the fridge.

As Jim Mentioned, those weird Jaggies were bad on WCPO-DT, maybe even worse than they've ever been before - For example, even the edges of the tiger in middle of field were "shimmering" like crazy with jpeg like jaggies on WCPO-DT in many shots, as was anything else with edges given certian angles to the shots. I thought The difference between KEF+WCPO was staggering in this regard, this time.

Anyhow -- What's up with Al Micheals? Been away too long I guess ... I believe the "Suspension Bridge" is called the Roebling Suspension bridge(I want to Say John A. Roebling Bride, but would have to look it up) after its designer AND Camp Washington Chili(ummm HD Coneys from the best Chili in Town(IMO) is certianly not Skyline ... ;)

In any event, I thought the MNF crew did a great job last night, as did CPO with their pregame show .... Finally got to see the Bengals in HD ...

OK, you guys are watching over the air and seeing jaggies and freezes. I'm watching via cable and don't see those things. Obviously Insight has more resources to focus and amplify, so what is the source of the problem?

Not saying I've never seen a freeze or a jaggie. . .but it's very rare.

I've never seen a video freeze from WCPO-DT Cincinnati, that's a WKEF-DT (Dayton Ohio) issue.

You probably wouldn't know the "jaggies" issue was there from WCPO-DT unless you have another source of ABC HD to compare it to. It's generally probably only noticable by most during certian camera angles and on certian "edges"(such as the tiger in middle of field, yard lines during certian camera angels coming from the end zone during replays, The edges of Al Micheal/John Madden's handheld Mikes during some of their pregame comments), and really, it's only been noticeable during certian shots during MNF -- AND it's only been there this year -- Since they made the move to the New studio. I don't recall it ever being an issue before that. It's not an issue from WKEF-DT Dayton, if you could switch between the two I'm sure you would see the difference.

The PQ should not be any different from Insight from WCPO-DT than it is over the air, unless there is something going on here that is more decoder specific. The Datastream BOTH cable+OTA viewers see that contains the HD video from ABC comes from the same source, The WCPO-DT HD encoder.

Can anyone who has TW or Insight AND OTA reception of WCPO-DT AND WKEF-DT do a comparision during MNF+ make a report(assuming the problem is still there next time)? Note that the smaller the display size, the less noticable the WCPO-DT jaggies issue is.

Or, if there is someone who is receiving both WCPO-DT+WKEF-DT and is NOT getting the jaggies from WCPO-DT/seeing the difference during MNF HD, let us know what Hardware you're using and maybe that will tell us something, which we can also send to WCPO.

As I said, I get my signal from Insight. Motorola 6208 box, fed by DVI input into my Hitachi 50V500a. The only breakups I usually see are during weather changes, and mostly on premium channels. My best picture is HDNet, but it also will tend to freeze, at times, when there is a weather front coming through. Ditto Showtime. Of the three locals (I don't watch PBS) WCPO seems the weakest by far, and WKRC drives me crazy by not switching back to widescreen HD setup. But I'm sure everyone gets that.

Jeff..

I have to agree. I never knew there WAS a problem until the night WCPO missed the switch and I went to WKEF. It's most noticable when you look at the distant sideline of the field. The lines aren't smooth. And the American flag on the ref uniforms strobes. Doesn't do that on 'KEF. But once you notice it, you can't stand it <G>.

allright!! doc sees it too!! now.. how in the hell do we tell wcpo of the problem.. I have been trying for weeks with no luck!!

jim

I'm a TW user. Have a Pace STB and Sony 32". I defintely see the jaggies every Monday night. It is especially noticeable to me on the yard lines when they pan across the grid of the playing fields.

So that's a vote for TW with a smallish TV. (It's really still wierd to think of 32" as small).

great.. now we all need to contact them with the same style email and use the same language.. maybe they will get the picture!

jim

I saw some jaggies last night on MNF through TWC on my 65" Toshiba.
The picture was OK, but not as crisp as some other content.

Originally posted by jim tressler
great.. now we all need to contact them with the same style email and use the same language.. Suggest you use something along the lines of "interlacing artifacts during live programming that don't appear on WKEF." Won't swear by it, but "jaggies" may not have the desired effect. Plus, you want them knowing it's during live ABC HD programming (which is only MNF at the moment) so they don't look at "Lost" and say, "looks fine to me."

I noticed the jaggies on my Zenith 34" wide screen. I don't have Insight cable. WCPO-DT as sharp as some of the other stations in town especially on their up conversions.

Originally posted by DrDon
But once you notice it, you can't stand it <G>.

Yep, I was thinking that last night. What's especially funny is, it's not like it's a "subtle" thing either ... At least once you DO notice it ...

Originally posted by DrDon
And the American flag on the ref uniforms strobes.


That part of it REALLY confuses me. It's like NTSC composite video artifacts from the source, or if your comb fliter isn't working too well -- Like the Prez's tie earlier this year .. The only other time I have seen anything like that that didn't(or shouldn't have anyway) involve NTSC composite video was at certian points(pinstripes/etc) during All-Star game, and I have no idea what was going on there -- As it was a HD production, but downconverted+sent over the old, now discontinued Fox WS feed ...

Originally posted by jim tressler
how in the hell do we tell wcpo of the problem..


Keep in mind, I suppose it's possible they know about the problem, but just haven't been able to "fix it" yet for whatever reason. I do know it the past when I've contacted them about something, they've usually replied quite quickly with some sort of explanation about what was causing the issue/etc. In fact, up until this issue, Overall over the past 3 years CPO' has been one of the MOST reliable stations for passing through HD in the area -- and, for the most part with excellent PQ I might add ... They even used to upconvert to 1080i for those of us with Native 1080i displays, and early STB's that didn't do as good of a job on the 720p~1080i sidecoversion as is the case with newer equipment. Anyhow, As others have mentioned earlier, I'm thinking the BIG project of moving their studio might still have them quite busy ...

Also, with this sort of thing, It might be difficult for them to find whatever "bug" that's causing it ... We'll probably just have to be patient(and understanding), as sooner or later I can't imagine that it won't get fixed ....

Anyway -- I was thinking last night that the problem(when it's occuring at it's worst anyway) is probably obvious enough, even with the jpg compression and other "artifacts" involved to still be evident in a comparsion of an "offending" portion of a frame(or similair frames) between WCPO-DT+WKEF-DT even if captured by a digital camera, although a screen cap off a PC tuner card would be better. I don't have the capability to capture the same frame from both stations which of course would be best, and don't have a PC tuner card either, but I thought about trying it with digital camera last night to see if it would be obvious enough for a "demonstration" of the issue, but I was enjoying the game too much to mess with it. Maybe next week I'll get a chance to try it.

Jim,

Do you have a specific contact that we can e-mail? I have two other friends who saw the jaggies. I am not exactly sure what you refer to as dropouts but we all three had maybe 1/2 dozen times where the picture would pixelate and we would loose sound, maybe lasted less than 1/2 second? We never had full picture loss and never had "searching for signal" is this what you mean by dropouts? Keep in mind that we all three live in different locations (Liberty Twp, Morrow, and N. KY) and all have three different antenna/OTA receiver setups. We all agree that ESPN-HD SNF looks better than MNF--which is interesteding considering what DirecTV has been doing to compress their HD signals. I don't know the specifics but people who have hacked their HD TiVos are looking @ file size to determine how much compression is being used on both OTA and D* signals. Haven't seen anyone in the Cinci/Dayton area do this so can't specifically report what is going on OTA here in town. I agree with Nitewatchman that they may know and even be working on the problem, but some more constructive feedback to them wouldn't hurt. I can have my two buddies send the info as well.

Greg Ruschman: gruschman@wcpo.com

Yes, by all means send them a note concerning the issue... As there is of course also a good chance they don't know the issue is on their end if only a couple of folks contact them, and of course it never hurts to let them know you're out here watching+appreciating the ABC HD from them/etc ...

BTW, Getting "nasty" with them is never a good idea, IMO.

haggis,

FWIW, I doubt that it's a bitrate issue --- so I don't think analyzing the datastream with a transport stream analyzer/etc. would do any good, but who knows -- and it would be interesting to see what anyone finds out from any of the locals with one of those, although I think you have to be careful when interpeting the "results" ...

Also-- I was watching WKEF most of the time last night so I can't say for sure, but otherwise, I haven't had any dropouts here from WCPO-DT when I've been watching.

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
I haven't had any dropouts here from WCPO-DT when I've been watching. The only ones I see can be explained by typical VHF interference. WCPO-DT being VHF makes it subject to the same things that analog VHF stations suffer from, though not as much as the Lo-VHF band. But I'll still get a dropout whenever my nearby refrigerator kicks on, there's lightning in the area, the neighbor is conducting one of his weird experiments, etc..

Funny you should mention that.. I did notice it on lost as well.. last week when locke was playing the game in the cafeteria, there was a vending machine in the background with vents on top - sure enough.. the interlacing artifacts were there :) but I like your term.. interlacing artifacts .. ie.. jaggies.. lol


Originally posted by DrDon
Suggest you use something along the lines of "interlacing artifacts during live programming that don't appear on WKEF." Won't swear by it, but "jaggies" may not have the desired effect. Plus, you want them knowing it's during live ABC HD programming (which is only MNF at the moment) so they don't look at "Lost" and say, "looks fine to me."

Like doc mentions.. Greg Ruschman: gruschman@wcpo.com - I have emailed him 6 times in the past 6 weeks.. I also cc Bill Fee the GM - bfee@wcpo.com - perhaps someone would like to take a crack at a form letter that each of us can modify and send.. I will attempt one later tongiht

jim

ps.. I have a hughes HTL-HD and ESPN-HD sunday night and all other true hd football and baseball looks great!

Originally posted by haggis444
Jim,

Do you have a specific contact that we can e-mail? I have two other friends who saw the jaggies. I am not exactly sure what you refer to as dropouts but we all three had maybe 1/2 dozen times where the picture would pixelate and we would loose sound, maybe lasted less than 1/2 second? We never had full picture loss and never had "searching for signal" is this what you mean by dropouts? Keep in mind that we all three live in different locations (Liberty Twp, Morrow, and N. KY) and all have three different antenna/OTA receiver setups. We all agree that ESPN-HD SNF looks better than MNF--which is interesteding considering what DirecTV has been doing to compress their HD signals. I don't know the specifics but people who have hacked their HD TiVos are looking @ file size to determine how much compression is being used on both OTA and D* signals. Haven't seen anyone in the Cinci/Dayton area do this so can't specifically report what is going on OTA here in town. I agree with Nitewatchman that they may know and even be working on the problem, but some more constructive feedback to them wouldn't hurt. I can have my two buddies send the info as well.

one more thing.. I have a gmail invite if anyone is interested!

jim

Well here is my crack at the email to them. I am sending this to them now.

Mr. Ruschman,
I wanted to drop a line and let you know that there are a lot of people out there watching the HD broadcasts from WCPO, especially the live Monday Night football. We all appreciate the good job you and your staff are doing on the taped shows. The picture quality is excellent. We can only hope for Dolby 5.1 sound in the future, I use Time Warner cable for my reception of your broadcasts.
Now on to a problem I have seen during Monday night football. There seems to be some interlacing problems during the live program. This is most easily noticed on the yard lines as they are shown in a diagonal. I have talked with many people in the area watching the broadcast from both over the air and different cable systems. Everyone is seeing the same issue with the interlacing artifacts. I was not sure if you had seen the problem or were aware of it. I have talked with a few people who get WKEF and the interlacing problem does not show up on their Monday Night football feed. Please let me know if you have seen the problem or have any further questions on the matter.
Thanks for your time and keep up the good work moving forward with the HD programming.

Well put, Mike.

Yes -- Great job Zekyl !

Originally posted by DrDon
The only ones I see can be explained by typical VHF interference.

Doc,

I guess I should not have said I haven't seen "any", as I have seen some reception related dropouts -- Just very, very rarely. Meaing, about 5 or 6 reception related dropouts total that I can recall, for all 14 Cincy/Dayton DTV stations(can't get WKOI-DT except in winter after leaves drop) when I've been watching or monitoring since early Nov. 2001.

If I recall correctly, I think Spring 2002 was the last time I noticed any dropouts on WCPO-DT, here it was from impulse noise spikes from a couple of VERY nearby lightning strikes, probably within a few hundred feet(or closer) of the antenna and probably in or near the signal path - It was easy to tell the cause as the nearby flash was so bright through the windows and simultanous with the dropout.

The other 3 or 4 reception related(For any of the cincy/Dayton stations) dropouts I've noticed since 2001 were due to co-channel interference -- WNWO 24 booming in off the backside of antenna and effecting WCVN-DT, and WBNS 10 causing a dropout or 2 one night to WCPO-DT --

I'm surprised the latter, especially doesn't happen more often. Although WBNS would have to be really booming in off the side of the antenna(or the impulse noise source/lightning strike would have to be awwfully close or "noisy), considering I'm probably getting around 40~60db S/N or more from WCPO-DT under "normal" conditions, as it takes well over 20db of extra atteunation added in the feedline to even drop the signal quality readings on the reciever from ANY Cincy/Dayton station except WCVN-DT, which generally will just go below a lock with about 5db~7db of extra atteunation. Anyhoo, I imagine the WBNS 10/WCPO-DT 10 Co-channel issue would be much more of a problem, from say -- Wilmington receving location, unless you're using a antenna with excellent F/B rejection ..

Thanks guys. I will of course post my response if I hear anything.

Ok - here is my email - thanks to zekyl and nitewatchman - i sent it to both Rushcman and bill fee the gm... If we all so something similar maybe we will get a response!

jim

-----------------------------------------------

Gentleman,
I wanted to let you know that there are a lot of people out there watching the HD broadcasts from WCPO, especially the live Monday Night football. I think everyone agrees and appreciates the good job the station is doing on the primetime shows. The picture quality is very good. Hopefully in the near future Dolby Digital 5.1 sound will be available from WCPO. I personally use an over the air antenna for reception of your broadcasts. Even though the pre recored HDTV shows are quite good, there is a problem that I have recently started to notice during Monday Night Football - there seems to be some interlacing problems during the live program. This is most easily noticed on the yard lines as they are shown in a diagonal, especially when the camera does a slow pan. Also, the onscreen graphics look very blocky - ie.. what should be round, like the ABC logo, actually looks like it is made up of squares. In addition, even the edges of the tiger in middle of field were "shimmering" like crazy in many shots, as was anything else with edges given certain angles to the shots. I have talked with many people in the area watching the broadcast from both over the air and different cable systems and everyone is seeing the same issue with the interlacing artifacts - or jaggies as I call them in a non technical sense. I was not sure if you had seen the problem or were aware of it. I have the ability to rotate the antenna and receive WKEF out of Dayton and the interlacing problem does not show up on their Monday Night football feed, so one would assume that the problem lies with WCPO. This issue has been ongoing for all of the MNF broadcasts since the start of the season. Hopefully you can address the issue and make MNF as good as the ESPN HD broadcasts which are outstanding from my point of view.

Thanks for your time and I for one really appreciate the good work that WCPO does with HD programming.

Thanks again!

Jim Tressler
Hamilton Township

Sent them an e-mail also, lets hope they will actually try to resolve the issues. :)

WSTR-DT is airing "One Tree Hill" in HD at the moment (noon). Seems to be a prefeed. No commercials and no bug. And the sound isn't quite right.

It sounds like they are testing 5.1 audio. I was getting a few drop outs during One Tree Hill that just finished. They are now playing back the last half of it

Attached screenshots are a co-channel interference demonstration from my location from just after 11am, today. Sorry about the crop job and moire pattern - did this quicky with a digital camera. Antenna is (directional - Thankfully) RS-VU-210 @ 38ft AGL.

Description:

At Top left, a steady signal via tropo from WBNS 10 Columbus(78 Miles) getting through WCPO-DT's DT snow --- Antenna aiming: 70 deg(ENE) If WCPO-DT were off air, it would probably be a pretty clear pic from WBNS(That's how I USED to be able to watch some CBS Bengals Home games before WCPO came up in 98). WSYX-DT 13, ABC Columbus is just booming in, BTW.

At top right - WCPO-DT 10(32 Miles) - antenna aiming: 188 Deg(S) As you can see, the extra noise from WBNS 10 is producing no appararent effects to my WCPO-DT reception. Steady 100% reading on the signal quality meter.

At bottom left - Steady but seemingly fairly weak signal via tropo from WNWO 24, Toledo, OH(150 Miles) - Antenna Aiming: 20Deg(NNE). If WCVN-DT were off air, it would probably be a much more decent pic, probably with just a bit of "snow". I can't quite figure out how -- but, I have seen WNWO in with a almost snow free pic, still without causing WCVN-DT dropouts, however.

At bottom right - WCVN-DT 24(39 Miles) - antenna aiming - 188 degrees az. - No dropouts, BUT the extra noise IS lowering the reading from the signal quality meter. Normally, it shows a reading around the "L" in the "Normal", usually just in the "good" area. The extra noise from WNWO off the back side of antenna is taking it down to the "O~M" of "normal". If it were enough noise to drop it much below the "normal area"/bar(about 33% reading), then there would be a dropout.

Jeff,

I just noticed that 7 is down.See anything?

Thanks for the heads up Greg -- No luck on 7 though -- Even WSYX-DT has dropped just below a lock at 12:30.

WHIO-DT is still up though -- They've got Bush on right now from a "rally" somewhere around Dayton I'd Imagine ...

Update - Doh! I forgot that I've got a Channel 7 trap in line -- Gotta get it outta there+check again ---

-------------------------------------

Update #2 - Yep == Got a DTV "sniff" on 7 from the South(a long way from a lock though), and a very weak analog signal from the west/WSW running local news -- haven't been a to pull a ID from the latter yet even during the WX report ARGH!), as getting mostly audio only+ it's just intermittantly getting above the snow ..
I had to pull my Channel 2 trap out with the one for 7 though, so I'm getting some nasty intermod from WDTN on 7 with antenna aimed towards Dayton ...

Edit: Just got an ID at 1:10 -- "WTVW, News Channel 7" -- Evansville -- A New log here!

The Dayton paper's website says that WHIO is having problems with their transmission line and was at low power as of 5:30-ish.

Not sure if the DT is affected but it sounds like it's not.

Just noticed WCPO-DT has filed a app(currently shows "accepted for filing" status on FCC site, w status date of 10/29/04) to increase power a tad to 16.3KW ERP(They are currently licensed for 13.7 KW ERP) :

WCPO/WCPO-DT FCC TV Query info here:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=WCPO&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

The application itself(requires acrobat reader) is here:

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101023370&formid=301&fac_num=59438

Engineering statement attached to the app is here(requires acrobat reader) :

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=254107


-----------------------------------

At least I hope it was wcpo/scripps+their consulting engineer that filed the app --- see here:

http://www.tvtechnology.com/dlrf/one.php?id=609

In case any of you are TWC users as well as OTA fanatics, I just got a flyer yesterday from them stating that HD DVRs would be coming soon. No pricing or timing was given, but it's a good sign.

Originally posted by cmf
In case any of you are TWC users as well as OTA fanatics, I just got a flyer yesterday from them stating that HD DVRs would be coming soon. No pricing or timing was given, but it's a good sign.

There has been some discussion over the past few weeks of a DVR from TW Dayton in the Dayton thread if you want to check it out. If I recall correctly(and I may not be), I think one fellow picked one up a week or two ago.

Don't TW HD people also use OTA HD for WB+Fox HD as well as for Dayton(such as for the Colts HD game last week that aired on CBS HD(WHIO-DT) Dayton, Cincy WKRC just had the pats/jets at 4), ETC? ;)

FWIW, You don't have to be a "fanatic" as you call it to enjoy/watch OTA HD ...

It will help when OTA (H) DTV receivers are built into all sets in the future instead of the $$$ extra cost of STB or "built in tuner" you have now(which is now what, about 6months~year of cable subscription costs) .. I'm not counting on it, but I Just hope the "digital Cable PnP" sets have TWO RF inputs on them so folks can actually easily hook up their antenna + cable .... Seems to me, you would want the same functionality from recording devices(built in OTA even in say, cableco HD DVR's) as well --

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
Don't TW HD people also use OTA HD for WB+Fox HD as well as for Dayton(such as for the Colts HD game last week that aired on CBS HD(WHIO-DT) Dayton, Cincy WKRC just had the pats/jets at 4), ETC? ;)

FWIW, You don't have to be a "fanatic" as you call it to enjoy/watch OTA HD ...


I don't really watch much TV -- my wife is the TV consumer in the household and I swear she'd be totally satisfied with a 9" CRT and rabbit ears. ;) So, it just hasn't been worth the hassle so far to buy and install an antenna and set up an HD-tuning HTPC to act as a DVR (we don't watch anything live except for the rare sports event).

My brother is in Middletown and just got called to be a beta tester, he is getting his box installed next week. He said it is going to be a Scientific Atlanta, I assume one of the 8000 models. Not sure if he is TW Cinci or Dayton though. AFAIK none of these boxes has an 8VSB (OTA) tuner in them, only a (QAM) tuner for cable. There are rumors that a few UC Bearcat games will be in HD on Fox and my friends with TW are not happy that they can't get WXIX in HD. Would be nice if OTA was supported.

haggis44,

Middletown would be TW Cincy, All Middletown "zip codes" are Cincinnati DMA as well. I think the analog channel line up might be a bit different with more Dayton locals, but, unless something has changed recently I think their DTV carriage of Cincinnati Digitals is the same as what you get in Cincinnati.

TW Cincy makes it as far as about 1/2 mile from me, Which is about as far North as TW Cincy gets -- which is pretty far considering that I'm north of town and almost on Butler/Montgomery County line. TW Dayton serves South Dayton/Southern Montomery County, Which is Dayton DMA. -- I'm not sure which cableco has Franklin/Springboro(N warren county) area however.

Hi all. Just found this site and thread and wanted to say hello. Hi again to Nitewatchman!

New to HD. Only able to get OTA for now. See ya around.

welcome cokebear

now on to business.. has anyone recieved anything from WCPO about the "jaggies" my mail box is empty!!!


jim

Jim..

Nothing, yet. I'll watch tonight to see if anything's changed. Might even grab the digital camera so I can send them samples of their picture and KEF's. Although I doubt I'm going to be as good at getting the shots as Jeff is. Especially if I open the beer 'fridge too early.

Saw where all of the political ads have netted like 20 million for Cincinnati media alone. Hopefully, that'll help fund some upgrades. Maybe they'll all be able to earmark the $35K DD 5.1 costs.

I hope that Nitewatchmans post about them increasing the output from WCPO will help out your jaggie problem and maybe that will let me actually receive a signal from them. I can only get the meter on my TV to show about 27 for them and I really want to be able to watch MNF in HD.

Now I am setting here wondering about the signal level I'm getting on all my channels. Just how much PQ am I really losing since my signal meter is only setting at about 50-65 on most of the other channels? I have the noise reduction setting on my TV to low. Is there a noticable difference? Should I worry about getting a higher signal level? Is it mostly noticable on fast action shots(football, racing, etc.)? :confused:

Just some noob Qs. I have only had my HDTV for about 2 weeks.

I have not heard a thing from WCPO, FOX, or WSTR. I emailed them all about different HD topics.

well.. looks like they havent fixed anything!

Cokebear,

With DTV, PQ doesn't change because of RF signal level. As long as you're getting around 16db(The threshold required for solid DTV reception) or more signal over noise, the reception would be "perfect", and you won't get a better pic with more signal beyond that point. If of course doesn't hurt to get as much signal as you can though, as various types of interference can "sporadically" raise the noise level. (such as impulse noise type interference from a lightning strike - Multipath which the receiver can't correct for is also seen as noise by the receiver, and if the multipath is dynamic(coming from an reflection off a airplane for example), and "uncorrectable" by the receiver, then that would raise the "noise level" too.

Anyhow, the datastream(s) for the video/audio/etc. are just bits(1's and zeros) that is "piggybacked" in a sense on the RF(8VSB) signal, or probably via QAM signal for those using cable. The error correction used for the RF signal is completely independant from the bitstreams that carry the data(video/audio/PSIP/datacasting services/etc). The error correction for the MPEG2/AC-3 audio stream is pretty much the same as what a DVD uses.

As for WCPO-DT's possible power increase,, if FCC ok's theirrequest/application to increasepower, you probably won't notice much of a change in their signal, as the requested power increase isn't much. If they doubled their current power from 13.7KW to ~27KW ERP, that would be an effective power increase of only about 2.5~3db(about the same increase as one would get if they removed a two way splitter from their feedline). But, again IF FCC approves it, they'll only be increasing power by a small fraction of a db(from 13.7 KW ERP to 16.5 KW ERP).

All,

WSTR-DT is, surely enough sending DD 5.1 tonight for HD "Everwood". I didn't think WB was sending anything DD 5.1 until LOTR next sunday, but sure enough, my decoder is indicating DD 5.1, and there are "discrete sounds" coming out of the surrounds.

Attached are screenshot comparisons between WCPO-DT+WKEF-DT of the American Flag on ref uniforms, and the score bug during ABC HD from MNF tonight.

I had to "defocus" the digital camera shots a bit in order to reduce moire pattern, so it isn't as sharp as it should be, but I think you can see the difference in the "jaggies"/interlace artifacts .... even though its far from the most "evident" "jaggie issue" -- I thought the score bug makes for an especially good comparison, as it looks/is the "same" from both stations throughout the entire game. It's in the yellow circle around the ABC bug that WCPO-DT's problem is evident.

At top are the screenshots from WCPO-DT, at bottom are the screenshots from WKEF-DT.

Attached is a comparison that shows WCPO's jaggies problem when it occurs from certian camera angles etc as it shows up on the yardlines. At left, obviously a frame from WCPO-DT, showing just a portion of the screen. At right, a very similar frame from WKEF-DT, which doesn't have this problem given different camera angles/etc. The WKEF-DT pic looks strange because the camera shutter was still open while they were switching to another shot. I had a hard time switching to WKEF fast enough to get a frame where the problem was obviously occuring with WCPO-DT, so this will have to do -- I think the difference is quite obvious, anyhow.

great job jeff!! now we just need to send that on to wcpo!

jim

I'll send them, along with a link to the past few posts in case their "security settings" prevent them from getting the attached pics. Also, anyone feel free to use the pics(or a link to above posts/pics) as a demonstration of the problem elsewhere/etc. If nothing else, there's probably SOMEONE on AVS who might have an idea of what is happening, for instance, there are a couple of MPEG encoder experts that I've seen post in programming area ...

Here's another one. Obviously, Left is from WCPO-DT, Right is from WKEF-DT.

ok.. I posted this over in the HDTV programming forum

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4596006#post4596006

let me know if you think anything should be added!

Edit: very nice jeff.. that hit the nail on the head.. hopefully someone will have a solution for us to send to wcpo!! gotta love the internet!

thanks

jim

Yes, hopefully someone has an idea concerning what is causing it ...

I also hope Fox has this coming Sunday's Cowboys at Bengals game in HD. Don't know how many games Fox is doing this coming weekend, but I expect there is a very good chance the Bengals game will be HD.

I think it's sold out, but don't quote me on that. An article in paper today said it will be on WRGT, Dayton -- If correct, In which case it would have to be sold out, and would of course air on WXIX as well.

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
Yes, hopefully someone has an idea concerning what is causing it ...

I also hope Fox has this coming Sunday's Cowboys at Bengals game in HD. Don't know how many games Fox is doing this coming weekend, but I expect there is a very good chance the Bengals game will be HD.

I think it's sold out, but don't quote me on that. An article in paper today said it will be on WRGT, Dayton -- If correct, In which case it would have to be sold out, and would of course air on WXIX as well.

it is a safe bet that the cowboys game will be in HD

Why do you think it's a safe bet the Cowboys Game will be in HD? They only do two or three a week. Dallas at Cincinnati? Sounds like regional coverage to me.

Fox does 6 per week. CBS does three. Cowboys at Bengals will be on Fox since the Cowboys are NFC and interconference games are covered by the network of the visiting team. That said, Fox's schedule shows 7 games, this weekend, so it's possible one game will be SD.

Originally posted by DrDon
Fox's schedule shows 7 games, this weekend, so it's possible one game will be SD.

Ah .. Thanks. I looked at CBS schedule ( here: http://cbs.sportsline.com/cbssports/schedules/page/nfl )+Sunday ticket schedule ( here: http://www.directvsports.com/Schedules/Packages/NFLSundayTicket/ )this morning to which games over next few weeks they might indicate would be in HD, but didn't check Fox or take the time to "deduce" which games were Fox/etc ...

The schedule on Fox site doesn't/hasn't indicate which games will be HD(elsewhere on Fox site, as has been discussed in AVSforum extensively, it does say they are doing 6 HD games every week, which has been the case so far), but the CBS scheudle at link above shows HD games(usually about 2-3 weeks ahead, but they've only got the HD games for this weekend showing up currently), and I thought DirecTV's Sunday Ticket schedule WAS showing which Games(Fox+CBS) would be HD a week or two ahead of time, but it's currently not indicating a "HD channel" for anything the next few weeks, including 11/7.

Jeff..

For the past three weeks, the HD games have shown up on my onscreen guide before either the ST page or the DirecTV program guide. They usually start appearing on Wed or Thur with all of them by Fri. Let you know as soon as I see anything.

I believe it will be in HDTV - and yes it is sold out so it will be on locally.

According to http://www.dbsforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39614

it will be seen by 14% of the country, which is #2 out of the 7 games they are showing. (Pittsburgh v. Philly is #1 at 39%)

they also usually post the announcers on dbsforums.com tuesday or wednesday.

jim

Well, I'm not sure what Fox is using to detirmine which game will not be HD when they have 7 games ... Since the HD audience is still so small, I would expect it has more to do with the "logistics" concerning the production, such as the moving the HD production trucks around, and which stadiums are best "HD-production ready" more than anything else, and I expect the same is true concerning which games CBS does in HD. Then again, Dallas is of course still a popular team nationally.

Looks like it's in HD: http://www.directvsports.com/Schedules/Packages/NFLSundayTicket/

Cool! Guess I should have waited a couple more hours before checking that site :)

Should make for an interesting comparision from PBS with the ABC MNF game(via WKEF-DT anyway)

wxix and fox in general.. but especially wxix do a great job with the nfl in hd!! You will be impressed!!!

jim

Well, I'M just glad Fox(and WXIX-DT/WRGT-DT) is DOING HD, now -- especially with all the years of weirdscreen much of the time instead of Fox Widescreen From WXIX-DT.

IMO, however, so far the Fox HD NFL games I've seen so far don't quite have as good PQ(still HD and looks good though IMO) as MNF HD (via WKEF-DT anyway, and WCPO-DT last year as well), and IMO, in this area OTA at least, CBS HD via WKRC-DT has had the best NFL HD PQ this year. Has that eye-popping "looking through a window" look. We'll see what it looks like on Sunday, though.

Off topic maybe but does anyone know why my DN has FoxSportsCincinnati not showing the UK games they are showing on FoxSportsOhio? I will be really pissed if they don't carry them. If anyone else has this problem please let them know about it. Thanks.

I posted this previously, but mistakenly created a new thread instead of posting a reply... I apologize for my error...

Hi everyone! I'm new to OTA HD - basically wanted to be able to see the Packers on Fox in HD, and we all know the situation with TWC and Fox... So, OTA was the only way to go.

I got a Samsung SIR-T100 box off Ebay. I was pleasantly surprised that it actually works, considering the horror stories I have read on this and other forums concerning these older units.

My location is in Mason, Ohio... Right behind the 700WLW tower.

I hooked up the Samsung unit and an old non-amplified indoor set of VHF/UHF rabbit ears, with the wheel in the base of the unit that you can turn to help with reception... I was able to get about 3/4 of the stations out of Dayton (all 25miles + from my house) with about a 25% signal strength, including the Fox channel that I was mainly trying to get. I couldn't get squat out of Cincinnati.

So, I figured if I was doing that well with the Dayton channels on a non-amplified antennae, if I got an amplified one I would do even better. So I went to Walmart and bought a Philips 45db amplified indoor antenna. Much to my dismay, my reception absolutely tanked. I couldn't get anything at all!!! I tried sticking the antenna in the window that faces north towards Dayton, and moved it other places, but I got nothing. Switched back to the old non-amplified antenna and was back to receiving the same stations I got before. Any theories on why the amplified antenna didn't work or help matters?

Anyone out there have any tips on a better indoor antenna I could try, or are familiar with the Mason area and have pointers on how to get better reception without going through the pains of sticking an antenna in the attic? If no one has experience with the Mason area, I'll be more than happy to continue tweaking/experimenting and post my results to help guide others in the future.

I'm going to do some more testing throughout the week, as I have read that weather can have an effect on your reception....

Thanks everyone for taking the time to read this and your replies. I've already gained alot of good info from this forum, and I appreciate the time and effort everyone is putting into the forum and contacting the various broadcasters in the area to help improve our HDTV!

Originally posted by smackman
Right behind the 700WLW tower. You answered your own question right there. That close, the amp ampflied the interference from 'LW as much as the TV signal. Bet if you hooked the setup to a regular TV and tuned to an analog UHF station, you'd be able to see the interference in the picture. Trouble with living that close to the tower is that no consumer gear is built with enough shielding to get around it. You may need a far more directional antenna mounted on the roof.. or you might could see quite a bit of improvement with a simple RF trap at the back of the STB or as complicated as shielding everything, including audio and power cables.

Doc

Thanks DrDon. I figured the tower would come into play... We don't even notice it anymore, as far as physically looking at it (unless it were to fall over, and it would be in my bedroom), but anytime we need to do anything with electronics, geez... Gotta filter filter filter... X-10 was a fun experiment! Lights went on and off at their will :)

The Shack has something called an "FM Trap" part # 15-577 and another device called an "RF Interference Filter" part # 15-579 . The FM trap device says it "Cuts "herringbone" interference on TV screen caused by strong FM signals. 75-ohm (F connector) input and output. " and the RF Interference Filter says "Cuts CB/Ham interference. This 54-900MHz high-pass filter installs inline at the 75-ohm (F connector) input jack on TV or VCR. ".

Is this what you were referring to in your reply? If so, any input on which would be the better one to try?

Originally posted by smackman
and we all know the situation with TWC and Fox... So, OTA was the only way to go.



Sorry to say that I don't know the situation with TWC and Fox. Anybody have any news?

Smackman..

WLW is AM, so an FM trap isn't going to help you. You need a high-pass filter. Jeff might chime in with some model numbers, although I'd just call WLW if I were you. AM stations are used to dealing with television interference problems from people who live near their transmitters. I've worked places where we kept a box of filters at the front desk to give out. Otherwise, just wander into the Shack and explain the situation to them or Google "TVI filter." I'll dig around on the web if I get a little time, this afternoon. Here's an example: www.mfjenterprises.com/products.php?prodid=MJF-711

DrDon -

That second unit I put in my prior post says it is a high pass filter that filters 54-900 mhz. I'm going to give that one a try tonight and see what happens - I'll try it with both the amplified and unamplified antennas.

Will post results tomorrow. Thanks again for your expert (and quick!!!) help!

Smackman/Doc,

Since the antenna w/o the preamp works fine for Dayton, but the antenna w preamp doesn't -- I would suspect that smackman's biggest problem(at least one of them<g>) may be that the amp is getting overloaded by the nearby strong signals(which don't have to be TV signals in order to mess up the amp), and thus the amp is creating intermodulation distortion(I.e. "noise") which is being spread all over the place.

Really, those "amplified" indoor antennas aren't usually all that great of an idea. A amp can't "pull in" more signal from the stations as that signal reaches your antenna, it can only recover feedline losses and, a high quality/low noise amp can help your receiver a little, as it can lower the overall noise figure of the antenna/receiver system that the front end of receiver sees - This can be especially beneficial for DTV reception . But, I doubt if the amps you find in indoor antennas are either "high quality", or "low noise".

If I recall correctly(and I may not be), I thought there was a FM station(was it WYGY 96.5 maybe?) Broadcasting from at or near WLW site. If so, and they are overloading the amp(you would see "herringbone" pattern on analogs from FM interference, or you might even hear some FM audio on some "blank" TV channels -- For the latter you'd have to use a TV that doesn't blank the screen(or audio) and shows "snow" when there isn't a TV signal(or a weak one is present), so I suppose a FM trap could help you out too.

In any event -- As Doc mentioned -- Check out the analogs+see what you get, interference wise with+without the amp. That should tell you something. See what sort of signals you are getting from the Cincinnati analog stations as well. If they are reasonably clear(little snow, "static" or ghosting or signs of interference), you should be able to get the Cincinnati digitals as well. If RF from WLW is getting in -- you should be able to tell it on analog stations/channels -- Turn on a radio to 700 AM+see if you get any "visuals"/etc. that match the audio .... If that's a problem -- As Doc mentioned, it's probably getting in because of poor RF shielding somewhere, or in through the "cables"/etc .... In which case, other than rerouting cables to see if that can get rid of it, I'd call WLW and see what they say.

Other than the preamp overload issue though -- I wouldn't necessarily expect that "interference" is your main issue. It might be you have signal obstruction issues for Cincinnati/etc, and just need a better antenna, mounted outdoors. A Small~medium size conventional outdoor VHF/UHF combo antenna( like this one : http://www.starkelectronic.com/wpr7015.htm ), Mounted outdoors in a good spot+aimed towards the towers(you'd need a rotor for dayton) would probably be a good idea for your location.

Hope this helps+Good luck,

You are correct - I think it is 96.5 that broadcasts just to the west of the WLW tower. I've already called WLW and left a voice mail with an engineer.

Thinking back over time when I've fooled around with X10, analog TV, and radio reception, I remember I have had BOTH 700 and 96.5 coming in over my wires. So, is it possible to hook the FM filter and the high-pass filter both inline at the same time? I think I did something similar with our phones, where I have 3 different filters (for diff frequencies) all plugged inline at the same time.

If Fox and TWC could just get together and get a contract signed.... life would be much simpler :)

Originally posted by smackman
So, is it possible to hook the FM filter and the high-pass filter both inline at the same time?


I don't see why not. Keep in mind you'll get some insertion loss from those filters, though - Probably less than a db for the FM trap, but the high-pass filter looks to incur about the same insertion loss as a 2 way splitter. The specs/loss figures on the highpass filter you mentioned is here:

http://support.radioshack.com/support_video/doc19/19797.htm

The insertion loss for the better, MFJ hi-pass filter Doc mentioned however, is very low -- only about .5db according to the specs:

http://www.hy-gain.com/man/mfjpdf/MFJ-711.pdf

It's worth a shot -- and given your proximity to WLW/WYGY, a High pass filter+FM trap are probably a good idea anyway, and of course experimentation is often key with this sort of thing -- BUT :

I could be wrong, and it's hard to say if you haven't looked for signs of interference with analog reception, but personally I doubt those filters are going to help you out much, or any with your Cincinnati reception. I think your best bet would be to get a better antenna, and or move it around to try to find the best "spot" for it that provides the best signals. Moving it around just a little -- a few feet up down, back/forwards/etc. CAN make a BIG difference. From indoors, I've found having the antenna near a window facing the towers often provides best reception, although some types of insulated window glass can impair reception. Just Having the antenna indoors instead of outdoors is going to attenuate signals by at least 15~20db(and that's a lot), probably more. It only Takes 16db Signal over noise to get perfrect DTV reception.

For instance, Since you were getting Dayton just fine w/o the antenna w/amp(but not Cincy), but you aren't getting them now, that would seem to indicate a problem other than interference issues is probably causing your issue with Cincinnati Reception.

Concerning the FM trap -- Since you're so close I suppose it might change things a little, but usually, even if preamp overload from strong FM signals is the cause, it is usually only VHF Hi-Band TV(ch 7-13 - 174~216MHZ), and TV Ch 6(82~88MHZ) that are effected. And, Except For ABC WCPO-DT 10, the other 7 Cincinnati HD/DTV stations are on UHF.

Originally posted by smackman
If Fox and TWC could just get together and get a contract signed.... life would be much simpler :)

It's pretty simple for me, I just plugged Integrated HDTV(internal DTV receiver) into antenna jack in wall 3 years ago and have been getting perfect reception for all the Cincinnati/Dayton HD/DTV stations(There are 14 now) ever since :) Took about an hour back in 1992 to put the latest "main" TV antenna(RS VU210 -- Blonder-Tongue mast mount preamp was already there) up on the tower ...

I guess I got bored, as a couple of years ago, to alleviate the need for rotoring for the Dayton+Cincinnati stations, I did add a lower Gain Dayton antenna to the side of the tower a couple of years ago+run the seperate feedline for it to various A/B switches in various rooms so I could just switch between Dayton+Cincy without the need for rotoring. Then, recently I did also add homemade coax stub filters for Dayton 2, 7+lo~mid FM, on the "VHF side" of things to keep the intermod out from the preamp a bit+to keep the adjacent channel "slop" down when the old, "big" antenna is aimed at Dayton, for my Dx'ing work. It also helps cut down on desense on my FM receiver. There is a FM trap in the mast mount preamp I use, but it doesn't do much above 92MHZ. So, for instance, when WJW 8 Cleveland is coming in, I can actually see it right next to WHIO 7.

And given all the money I save not paying for cable/etc, I picked up a 2nd DTV receiver(Zenith HDV420) and 2nd HD display over past couple of years ...

Anyhoo ... Besides all the "hassle" concerning the cost of monthly subscription fees though, cable wouldn't be so simple here, since cable does not serve my rural location between Middletown+Germantown.

BTW, FWIW, except for WSTR-DT(WB HD Cincy), and WCVN-DT(KET/PBS HD in N Ky) - Both of which I need the outdoor antenna for, I can get reception from all the other Dayton(12~14 miles) and Cincinnati(27~32 miles) from here from indoors with simple indoor antennas(rabbit ears for WCPO-DT 10 Cincy+ a folded dipole(wire in shape of a bowtie -- RS has one for $3) -- BUT ONLY if I place the indoor antenna near a 2nd story Window(S for Cincy/E for dayton) facing the towers. That's what is needed from indoors for decent(but not all that great)Analog reception as well, especially the UHF analogs.

YMMV of course, as many factors can effect reception. Terrain is my main issue, as I'm down in a small, steep valley.

Is anyone else having the sound cut out for a second then kick back in on WB64? The picture doesn't pause and there is no breakup in the picture. It happens when I have the tv speakers on and when I pass the dolby digital 5.1.

It was happening to me last night just before CSI started running on WKRC. Sound was stumbling but the picture was perfect.

Just a side thought. Has anyone had trouble with reception and sun spots or solar flares? sel.noaa.gov/today This may not have to do so much with DTV, it's way way above my head. Couldn't post the whole url.

WkRC forget to flip the switch for CSI tonight?

Cokebear,

Solar activity doesn't really directly effect the portions of VHF/UHF spectrum used by TV/DTV stations. Well, except for a couple of generally rare exceptions :

#1). Very very rarely during the peak of the sunspot cycle, when The MUF(maximum usuable frequency) gets high enough for refraction of signals on the LOW-LOW VHF channels(2+3 maybe 4 at times) to occur via F layer of ionosphere, but F1/F2 layer VHF propagation pretty much solely involve VERY weak signals, and, F layer Ionospheric propagation is usually confined to lower frequencies.

#2). Auroral activity, which has solar activity as a direct cause can affect lo-VHF+FM frequencies -- Mostly creating extra "noise", but "aurorally propagated signals" do occur as well.

Even E-Layer ionosperhic propagation that often effects VHF(lo-VHF TV+FM most frequnetly) (we call this "e-skip) during certian period of the year have been shown NOT to be directly caused by solar activity(we've known this for over 50 years).

Solar flares/etc. can cause problems for the satellites though, when the energy from Flares and CME's(Coronal Mass Ejections) hit the Earth's geomagnetic field - which of course often induces increased auroral activity as well.

There is an excellent explanation of the various types of signal propagation on VHF/UHF frequneices here (don't worry, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand it) :

http://www.dxfm.com/Content/propagation.htm

Originally posted by cokebear
WkRC forget to flip the switch for CSI tonight? Noticed that, but just flipped to WHIO-DT. 'KRC was back later in the hour when I checked. Whenever you see that, feel free to call them or any other station that misses a switch. We don't call, they don't think we're out here. The numbers are here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2728755#post2728755).

Thanks DrDon. I fired off an e-mail since i couldn't readily find those numbers. It was on just after the 1st commercial.

Cokebear..

The numbers are on the fourth post of this thread. E-mails they don't get until the next business day. If you jot down all the newsroom numbers, you can call when they miss a switch and they'll usually flip it right then. Be really nice when you call, say something about how wonderful their news department is, then ask them to tell the control room to "flip on the HDTV." They're usually very good about it unless there's big breaking news going on.

To help kill WLW in the TV signal , go to Radio Shack and get a couple of .01 uF disk capacitors (50V should be fine) and attach them so that one lead is on the center conductor of the coax and the other lead is grounded.

--------------------|
--------------------------------------- to TV Antenna Input
-| -----------------|
|
----
----
|
|
GND|

I talked to a TW CSR today, asking as I have every week about the "impending" release of the HD DVR. I lucked upon a knowledgeable one.

Unfortunately, she said the long hinted "November" release has been pushed back to Jan 1st. She also mentioned they are testing the PIONEER HD-DVR, not the SA 8000HD. I don't know of any TW affiliates who've rolled out a Pioneer box. I know Pioneer makes the Passport software used here, I didn't ask for the model number, maybe she meant the Pioneeer software on a Motorola unit.

I asked if she was sure it wasn't the SA 8000HD. She seemed sure.

Forgot to ask about internal scuttlebut about the lack of WXIX HD. What is the latest word here?

Pioneer HD-DVR instead of a Scientific Atlanta? Cool...I'm happy whenever a SA unit is shelved for more competent hardware (and what isn't, really?). They mention pricing at all, chazcron?

Originally posted by chazcron
Forgot to ask about internal scuttlebut about the lack of WXIX HD. What is the latest word here?

Hey Chazcron glad you're still around. Don't be such a stranger :)

Concerning WXIX-DT, don't have anything new about TW, but I had sent a "thank you for the HD(including for the Bengals game tomorrow<jinx alert><g>) note to their GM the other day(wed or thur I think, and he said a couple of UC BB games from them(I think he meant in HD) were still a possibility and he said they were hoping they may be in a posistion to make an announcment about it sometime in the next couple of weeks.

If you missed it, another member posted info from them a couple weeks ago or so that indicated some UC HD games are a possibility from them this year.

I did see elsewhere that Suscom Cable in Dearborn Co, IN is carrying WXIX-DT/Fox HD now ... AFAIK, Lebanon cable system is the only other one that does, IF they still do. Dayton TW/ TW WOH Carries the Sinclair operated Dayton FOX HD+ Dayton Sinclair O&O ABC HD affiliate, BTW.

I just noticed "Cops" is in Widescreen tonight(Looks like SD widescreen upconvert) --- I rarely watch that show, but has that happened before?

BTW, They are in Norwood tonight ...

Still lurking, NW...

Pricing for the HD-PVR is the same as the SD-DVR. I live in lucky land, Lebanon, where the competition keeps prices low- low- low.

My primary obsession has shifted from HD to the 2005 Mustang to Peter Jackson's remake of King Kong. PJ is posting biweeky video production journals specifically for the fansite kongisking.net

http://www.kongisking.net/index.shtml

I highly recommend it.

My HD obsession is still based here. No better place for HD info, local or otherwise.

NW, awesome proof of WCPO's interlace problem. Hope it gets resolved. It is difficult not to notice when watching MNF. Haven't seen it in any other ABC show, thank God it's not screwing up "Lost"

speaking of cops... i saw some of the footage from the ride along with the Hamilton County Sherrifs - some of the funniest sh*t I have seen in a while! They were in Colerain and delhi - I think it is supposed to air in December.

jim


Originally posted by Nitewatchman
I just noticed "Cops" is in Widescreen tonight(Looks like SD widescreen upconvert) --- I rarely watch that show, but has that happened before?

BTW, They are in Norwood tonight ...

For those of you with DirecTV, what's it run you a month? I'm just curious, as I'm about to get our antenna installed on the roof*. We're an OTA-only (attic) home at this point. Pm me if this is inappropiate for on-board discussion. TIA

*Decided to go with Advanced Antenna of Milford due to several recommendations on this board. Any others to consider? I'm not climbing up there myself, it's a 3 story drop and I get dizzy very easily.

P.S. Hello again, it's been awhile. I can't freakin believe Fox19 and WB64 are in HD! The channels I have problems tuning in with the attic antenna are WXIX (good), WCET (poor), WCVN (good) and WSTR (fair). Everything else is excellent.

Hi psm,

I have DirecTV and a Hughes e86 HD receiver. Their TOTAL CHOICE PLUS package with Locals (which is everything BUT the premium pay channels) costs $42.99/mo. Additional receivers will cost $4.99/mo more. Their HD package is free for the first 6 months, then $10.99, it has ESPN HD, Discovery HD Theater, HDNet, HDNet Movies and Bravo HD.

I still crunch these numbers against Insight's and wonder which is better. The real dilemma is if you want an HD DVR. The receiver for that is costing about $999 these days. The monthly cost for their TIVO service is then $4.99. I keep thinking I'd be better off with "renting" that equipment with Insight. But currently that equipment is lacking features (such as record one show while watching another). I also couldn't run my rooftop antenna or my hughes through it, this means I would not get Fox 19 HD or WB HD or any of the other channels that I pick up off the antenna (such as some Dayton and other PBSs) that Insight lacks. For the moment I'm sticking with DirecTV (oh, and their NFL Sunday Ticket) and waiting to see if Insight gets better equipment that would enable me to do all that. They tell me they might in 2005.

Hope this helps!

psm..

Well, the base backage is $35/mo ..that's without their local channel service. Rather unnecessary if you have an antenna, although they do have a better WBQC picture than WBQC puts out (And I've viewed WBQC 200 yards from ther transmitter!). Still, I'd skip it. Then add ten for the HD pack. Preimiums are ten each minus a dollar for each successive premium package. HBO and Showtime's HD offerings come with their respective packages only at no additional charge. Sports subscriptions vary. www.directv.com is pretty easy to navigate. Look under the 'packages' tab.

Yeah, WSTR's upgrades were a little surprising, given Sinclair's previious position on HD. Don't know what the epiphany was, but I'm glad they had it.

Doc

(Sorry, Itzme.. must've posted at the same time. -Doc)

Notice that BOTH WXIX-DT And WPTO-DT have been off air this morning since just after 8:30am to present. They both were up just before 8:30.

WXIX is off air for me, too. oh no! I bet my HD Sunday Tkt channel blacks it out because of the local broadcast, too. I tried calling (WXIX-DT 19/29 Assignment Desk 513-421-0119) and was transferred to voice mail!

Anyone have any news on this?

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!1 we will get screwed by directv.. it will be blacked out!!! crap

I just called as well.. voice mail here too!

Originally posted by jim tressler
we will get screwed by directv.. FWIW, the local broadcaster protection plan is the NFL's doing, not DirecTV's. Fortunately, the analog's still on the air or this WOULD be a predicament.

UPDATE: Up at 3p

If you can get them, Aim your antenna towards Dayton for FOX HD from WRGT-DT 30 .... Some HD Bengals pregame shots from PBS presently ...

Darn it. Can't get WRGT. Just placed a call to WXIX got a person. They told me they are working on it. Sounded like they were getting lots of those types of calls.

Thanks for passing that on cokebear -- That Murphy guy must be causing Havoc in the area again ... I should have KNOWN better than to post something that involved a <jinx alert> last night.... Oh me ... Murphy had some really unfortunate timing this time ....

Anyhow, I haven't had a chance to look at it on my larger HT display(I'm headed that way), but the HD PQ from WRGT-DT looks very good from what I can tell on a 26" HD display, possibly the best I've seen from FOX NFL HD so far.

Update: Well, looking at it on a larger display for a few minutes, it doesn't really look any different than the other Fox HD football we've seen so far. IMO, it looks good, but not as good as MNF(on WKEF-DT anyway this season, WKEF+WCPO last season), or CBS HD football.

The only problem with that Murphy guy was that he was oh so very right. Just remember not to jinx the superbowl. Setting here with the PIP going so I will be able to tell if it does come back on. I'm stuck with the DN local feed. Maybe they will get it by halftime.

After a half hour of dicking around with rabbit ears, I got 30.1 loud and clear. The final trick was pulling the mini blind on the north side of the room all the way up.

19 sucks. They had all the World Series in HD, and all the previous week of NFL games. Something of local interest, nothing.

I agree that 19 stinks. I know that things happen but this has been a problem since Friday morning and they should've taken steps to fix it before today. I am disappointed with them greatly. If WDKY had its new tower up I could watch the game in HD. Oh well :(

The 1st half is almost over and still nothing from WXIX-DT. You would really think that since the deadline for HDTV broadcasts was closing in, there would be more effort spent on it by all stations. It seems almost silly that there could be these types of problems at this time. It's no wonder that people are reluctant to go to HD with programming problems like this. Espically when almost everyone agrees that sports programming is what is going to drive the conversion to HD. Can you imagine the outrage at this if it were the superbowl?? All the TV's bought just before the superbowl this year will probably be HDTV's.

I'm begining to wonder if this mandate to digital is going to happen in 2009 or if it all. Problems like this do turn off the potential HD buyer. I can gaurantee if this outage happened to WXIX analog their would be an uproar. But heck why even bother with OTA since most people get them from the local cable company. Is this what Faux 19 thinks?

Back on I think. Yeah at about 9:30 left in the 3rdQ WXIX FINALLY is back on in HD.

yep, just in time for a Bengals touchdown(finally) .... First noticed WXIX-DT back on air with Fox HD at 2:50pm. WPTO-DT is back up now too.

Originally posted by microbob
I can gaurantee if this outage happened to WXIX analog their would be an uproar. But heck why even bother with OTA since most people get them from the local cable company. Is this what Faux 19 thinks?

No, I think I'm safe in saying that is NOT what they think.

Unfortunate Problems happen, this time it just happened at a really bad time. It should tell you something that they even got around to fixing it today.

Anyhow, I've seen WXIX 19 analog(and just about every other station as well) off air before at one time or another, even during primetime or "important" events/etc. And, yeah, I'm sure it caused a much greater uproar than the digital going off air - at least at this point.

Also, FYI Besides many OTA viewers, MANY cableco's and DBS get the signal at their headend from stations via OTA. TW Cincy probably gets it via fiber, but in outlying communties especially it is common for the cableco to use OTA to receive the signal at the headend.

Good timing for sure. Signal is loud and clear again on both XIX and PTO. Hopefully, they can find out what is causing both channels to drop off in the morning hours.


I have seen the other stations off the air at times but it is rare for a station to loose its analog channel during normal conditions. Having owned my HDTV for almost a year I have seen WXIX-DT off the air more than any other local DTV channel. WCPO was off for week when they moved there studio. WLWT has been down a few times but it wasn't hours or days at a time. WSTR was off a few times prior to going full 1081 HD.

I think the learning curve will continue until the 2009 mandate but the number one priority with the stations needs to be reliabilty in its DTV signal in making sure it stays on the air. I'm glad they fixed it and go Bengals!!

Hi,

We just moved to West Chester (Providence Manor), and I am looking for recommendations on an antenna setup. We are fairly high up (can actually see the fireworks from the river from here!). I can not put an antenna on the outside (per the home owners association). I would like to run the antenna down to the basement an into the 5X8 switch that I installed before the DirectTV installation.

My 2 thougts are:

1) put the antenna in the attic. I talked to a friend that has done some antenna installations, and he mentioned that my house may be too new, and the shingles may not allow signal in the attic?? Is this true? (house is 10 yrs old)

2) mount something outside that does not look like an antenna. I have seen the square shooter? Is this thing any good?

Antennaweb shows all digital stations in yellow and green for my location.
Any recommendatinons? Will I need an amplifier since I am going to run the antenna to the basment and then though the 5X8 switch and through the house. Any other non-obtrusive outdoor antennas that I might consider?

Any help appreciated.

It just amazes me that people aren't driving for the conversion to happen today. Maybe it's just that I'm a printer and notice the subtle differences but I don't think the difference is subtle at all. The clarity in HD programing is amazing to me and supprisingly to my wife also. I have been able to show her the difference with the PIP feature showing a DN feed of a show in HD at the same time(minus sat delay) and she can tell the difference too. Anyway we should be calling these stations and telling them good job when they do get it right as I just did.

Originally posted by microbob
Hopefully, they can find out what is causing both channels to drop off in the morning hours. Given the weather and time of day, I would hazard a guess there's some work being done on the tower or on the combiner. In other words, it's intentional.

I think I'm still getting some audio dropouts in the signal.

I would think they would hold off on maintenance during the weekends and do it during the week when not much is being broadcast in HD.

no dropouts here with audio. Hmmm

No audio dropouts/problems here during the FOX HD from WXIX-DT or WRGT-DT. Audio level is pretty low on WRGT-DT though, and there's some "different stuff" going on with the audio during their local ads.

Doc,

Yes, certianly makes sense, but I'm guessing(just WAG) they were probably planning on being up for the Bengals game, today but that it didn't quite work out that way for whatever reason -- As, unless their GM didn't know about it, seems like they would have said something when I mentioned In my recent correspondance with them that I was looking forward to the Bengals HD game from them, Today -- Especially given that he responded to that message. Of course, they probably have to get the work done when they can ....

Also, If it *was* tower work that was involved ... and, If they had workers on the tower, wouldn't they probably have had to lower power on the analog because of the RF safety regs?(not to mention to keep from actually "microwaving" a worker, if they were up around the antennas ... So to speak ....) While I suppose it's possible they did lower power on 19, I didn't see any sign of it.

FWIW, I would also note that WXIX-DT and WPTO-DT's antenna patterns are completely different. So, along with other info from FCC site that seems to indicate different antennas/transmission line/etc for WXIX/WPTO, (and that WPTO added their antenna in the past year) I don't think they are using the same antenna/transmission line, but who knows.

It only paused the audio a couple of times and for about a second each time. Hasn't happened anymore. Could have been my receiver instead.

Nice shot of the cameras they are using today. I bet someone on here knows what kind they were using.

WKRC has missed a switch too! All I'm saying is that we shouldn't have to call every time. Maybe they are waiting until 4:30 to throw that switch? Well OK @ 4:26 they got it right. 5:00 into the 1st Q.

Just a q to add, Is WKRC going to switch to 5.1 any time soon?

Hey I'm looking at getting Time Warner Cable here in Cincinnati around xmas time when I purchase my new HDTV. I spoke with a rep back in October and he said they plan on having a HD DVR before the end of the year.

Has anyone got it yet or have info on when it will be available? Are they using the Scientific Atlanta 8000HD or the new 8300HD or something totally different?

Also, does it matter where you live in cincy to how good your signals are for HD or is everyone getting a good signal? I think I have very good signal since I peak at the top of Road Runner's levels consistently. Just wondering if I should expect great things with TW's digital reception. I've seen different posts from other folks around the country that say that some of their reception is incredible while some really sucks. Most comments I have seen is about Comcast though.

Thanks everyone for you input to a newbie!!!

Mike
BTW, I live in Greenhills (just outside of Forest Park).

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
TW Cincy probably gets it via fiber, but in outlying communties especially it is common for the cableco to use OTA to receive the signal at the headend.

I agree. TW Cincy probably does get it via fiber in general because invariably when you guys post here that channel so and so DT is down, us cable folks don't know what you're talking about. I can't remember the last time I couldn't find a digital local channel on TWC.

Originally posted by mchuckp
Just wondering if I should expect great things with TW's digital reception. I've seen different posts from other folks around the country that say that some of their reception is incredible while some really sucks.
Mike
BTW, I live in Greenhills (just outside of Forest Park).

I think TWC's quality of picture is excellent for HD and decent for digital (There is still some over compression of its digital-non HD channels). Their analog signals are pretty strong too. The problem is they are slow on the take for HD programming. It took forever to get ESPN-HD and they still haven't given us WXIX-HD or Star 64 in HD.

Originally posted by barhoram
Hi,
We just moved to West Chester (Providence Manor), and I am looking for recommendations on an antenna setup. We are fairly high up (can actually see the fireworks from the river from here!).


hard to say, but just about anything *might* work. If you want, you can start cheap with a settop antenna+work your way up if you need more. I wouldn't think that you should have too much problem getting good signals from the Cincinnati stations.

Originally posted by barhoram
I can not put an antenna on the outside (per the home owners association).


HOA's can't prevent you from putting up a outdoor antenna(up to 12 foot above roofline) on property you own or control. It's the law, no matter what their "rules" might say. They can potentially have some say on where you can mount the antenna, as long as their recommendations doesn't effect your reception. Of course, you would not want to put antenna in a "unsafe" place in any case, such as - so it might fall on electric lines. Also, for outdoor installations best to follow proper grounding procedures, per NEC(In short : antenna mast+ Coax must be grounded properly, and the ground must be bonded to main A/C service ground - You can find more info on proper grounding in hardware area).

Anyhow, Do a search of AVSforum for "HOA" or "OTARD" for much discussion of this issue, or see the FCC rules on the matter. The fact sheet/Q&A/etc. on "Over-the-Air Reception Devices Rule - Preemption of Restrictions on Placement of Direct Broadcast Satellite, Multichannel Multipoint Distribution Service, and Television Broadcast Antennas"

is here:

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

Originally posted by barhoram
I would like to run the antenna down to the basement an into the 5X8 switch that I installed before the DirectTV installation.


Doc could give you a better idea if you might run into some problems with the multiswitch ... But, If you run into any problems, you might want to try it with just coax between the antenna+receiver to see if the multiswitch is a good idea or not. I'd think You could get problems with extra "noise" from any amp in the multiswitch, and, you're probably likely to get about as much(or more) insertion loss as a 2 or 4 way splitter would have.

Originally posted by barhoram
My 2 thougts are:

1) put the antenna in the attic. I talked to a friend that has done some antenna installations, and he mentioned that my house may be too new, and the shingles may not allow signal in the attic?? Is this true? (house is 10 yrs old)


Well, the age of the house shouldn't have anything to do with it -- But, having the antenna indoors in any case is going to attenuate the signals a lot -- at least by 15-20db(that's more loss than the best of outdoor antennas have "gain") compared to outside, probably more. I've found that Often the best spot from indoors involves putting the antenna near a window that faces the towers, but some types of insulated glass can be a real problem.

Now, certian types of building materials/etc. can be a problem as well .. But wood+asphalt/fiberglass mat shingles shouldn't cause much of a problem, besides signal atteunation.

Many folks do seem to have good luck mounting "conventional" outdoor antennas in their attic. From your location, given that you're probably in a strong signal area, I'd say it has a good chance of working for Cincinnati stations -- Maybe even Dayton. Although, you'll likely need seperate antennas on seperate feedlines for Dayton/Cincy, or a rotor - the latter which probably won't work too well in attic.

Just make sure to 1.) Make sure antenna is orientated properly towards Cincinnati towers(or Dayton), #2). take a small TV(even better your HD receiver hooked up to a small TV) into the attic with you and move the antenna around to try to get the best results. A difference of a few feet or a few inches can make a big difference. The more directional, higher gain the antenna, probably the better in this circumstance, and you'll probably definitely want a antenna(s) that are VHF/UHF. Which also means "bigger", which also means you're going to need to make sure you can fit the antenna in the attic, and move it around/orient it properly to aim towards Cincinnati or Dayton.

Originally posted by barhoram

2) mount something outside that does not look like an antenna. I have seen the square shooter? Is this thing any good?


Well, antennas that do not "look like" antennas don't really work very well either. I have a 17' long antenna on a 40 foot tower here and noone really ever notices it, even when they walk right under it. If I took a pic of it from as close as most folks get, you probably wouldn't even be able to spot it because of all the trees around it ...

However, in any case -- I would guess, especially as you are likely in a strong signal area, an antenna such as the squareshooter will probably work better outside than anything you can put inside. It is designed to work on UHF, not really VHF, but again, if the signal from ABC HD Cincy is strong enough, it might work just fine for them too from your location. Unfortunetly, the CM3010 has a very weak UHF section, but it might work for you too. Another idea might be the Winegard "Sensar" -- I believe Jim has one of these, and if I recall correctly is somewhat near you and uses it with good results.

Originally posted by barhoram
Hi,
Antennaweb shows all digital stations in yellow and green for my location.
Any recommendatinons? Will I need an amplifier since I am going to run the antenna to the basment and then though the 5X8 switch and through the house.

I would guess that a preamp/amp is probably not going to be a good idea in your situation. They can easily overload when strong signals are present. Also, you might run into problems with the multiswitch as mast mount preamps(which are a good idea) are powered via D.C. power via the coax. You're definitely not going to want to put in a 2nd amp if the multiswitch has a amp in it it uses for the VHF/UHF frequencies. I've never used them for the OTA side of things, but in looking at some specs, Make sure of course, that multiswitch HAS inputs/outputs to use for VHF/UHF antenna.

Hope this helps+let us know how it goes ...

Originally posted by cokebear
Just a q to add, Is WKRC going to switch to 5.1 any time soon? CBS is working out a "group buy," if you will, with Harris for DD gear for stations that don't have it. Stuff runs 35 grand. Sources tell me it's on the to-do list, but it's not imminent.

As for the HD switch on football - and I was watching Seattle, so I don't know for sure - but remember that HD for some late games won't be available until the early HD game on the same transponder is complete. CBS only has two HD network-to-affiliate "paths" and I think the pacific "path" got the Denver game. It's possible New England had to wait for Jets-Bills to conclude.

Originally posted by Sea Ray
invariably when you guys post here that channel so and so DT is down, us cable folks don't know what you're talking about. I can't remember the last time I couldn't find a digital local channel on TWC.

Well, I was pretty sure WLWT-DT, WKRC-DT, WCPO-DT, WCET-DT were feeding TW cincy(for greater Cincy area at least) the signal via fiber, And, I think Insight in N ky at least gets WCPO-DT via fiber. Don't know about WCVN-DT, or anything else.

I'm curious though --- Prior to WXIX-DT/WPTO-DT being down this morning+past few mornings as Doc reported, when is the last time you've seen a post here that reported that a Cincinnati Digital station was off the air?

XIX used to have quite a few problems, and it wasn't uncommon to see them down quite often, but they've been pretty reliable over last year+ or so.

Yes, it happens, and yes it(or other "glitches" which in most cases are just as likely to effect both Cable+OTA viewers) is probably likely to happen more with the digitals at this stage of the game, just because the analog is still more important, and will be for some time. Then again though, with aging analog plants+ a certianty that analog is going away at some point, there is probably a lot of nursing of old equipment for NTSC going on ...

That's why(along with other issues such as "they forgot to switch to HD -- which of course Cable viewers get too) it's nice to be able to receive stations from other markets such as Dayton/Lexington/Indy/Columbus/Lousiville/etc.(depending upon receiving location). And yes, it's even possible for a problem to be so severe(such as a tower collapse - I hope we don't have one of those around here, but it does happen) that a station might be down for long periods of time, and via a cable/DBS head end that's being fed by fiber or microwave may be the only way to get them for months. But hey, look at the cost of the OTA service, and like I said, 99% of the time, it is very reliable, and 100% is certianly possible with backup generators/backup transmitters/towers/etc.

As far as programming(Including OTA HD) wise goes, for me, it's pretty much 100% reliable for me, since I get all the Dayton stations too. I think there have been a couple of times I've noticed since 2001 when BOTH Dayton+Cincy stations missed HD that was being sent by the nets, and I had to check AVSforum programming area before calling.

When WCPO-DT was down(or SD only) during their studio move, Cable viewers were affected as well, not because they were off air, but because the equipment used for HD was being moved/installed at the new location/configured/etc.

But lately, it really hasn't happened any more with the digitals than is the case with analog, and it's been pretty rare for both -- probably happens most often for short periods during storms/power outages, and I don't recall seeing any of those THIS year.

WXIX analog was down much of one night not all that long back during baseball playoffs, including during their local news... The digital station was fine that night. They noted it the next night during their news coverage+reran some stories. WHIO 7(analog) Dayton was down much of the day a couple weeks back -- During their Coverage of Bush at Hara arena in Dayton. The digital remained on the air+was just fine.

As another example, In Winter 2002-03, WRGT 45 analog was off air for over a week, and at low power for months -- I'm not sure what the problem there was, exactly. Their digital station was fine.

In Summer 2002 -- WLWT-DT was off air much of the time(keep in mind, they didn't even get HD capability until early 2002, and, during summer 2002, only thing NBC sent in HD was A elvis Movie, Leno, and a couple of "crossing Jordan" episodes), although they did occasionally come up with a temporary antenna setup. Analogs WCET 48 and WLWT were at low power all summer during that time as well, because they had the top 1/2 of their tower town, strengthening it to hold the "permanent" WCET-DT/WLWT-DT antennas.

Barhoram,

Welcome! I spent 4 years working for Butler County and infact did some of the engineeing review on providence manor! nice subsivision - as far as your hoa.. they cant stop you. The Satellite Home Viewers act of 1996 and as further amended - I am sure Doc has the exact section # :) states that a local government or COA or HOA can not stop you from reasonably putting an antenna up - they can regulate it from a location standpoint and require you to get approval, but they can not stoop you from errecting one... so go for it! for what its worth I use the winegard sensar and am almost as high as you at a distance of 23 miles.

jim


Originally posted by barhoram
I can not put an antenna on the outside (per the home owners association).

Barhoram,

Jim is 100%, you can put the ugliest clothesline antenna up you want, and legally they can't stop you. Doesn't mean that the HOA isn't ignorant to the law and could cause you quite a few headaches until they eventually loose. My biggest thing was the WAF, so I went the attic route. I live near Route 4/Liberty Fairfield road and put in a CM 4221a for UHF, Antennacraft CS600 for channel 9(10) only, and I use a CM 7777 pre-amp. The way my trusses are ran, I don't have a huge cavity to put a huge antenna in, so that is why I went the way I did. My philosophy is separate the VHF/UHF antennas, I know there are a lot of dual band antennas out there that work great. I just wanted the ability to replace one or the other based on performance. I get signal quality in the 90s on all channels on my HR10-250. FWIW, I had a SS-1000, and a Terk TV-44 and both received all Cinci channels and the 44 received some Dayton. I just wanted to get something out of site in the attic. Good luck.

Originally posted by jim tressler
The Satellite Home Viewers act of 1996 and as further amended - I am sure Doc has the exact section # :)jim

Here's the link AGAIN (BTW, I just posted it on last post of last page of this thread here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4620531#post4620531 in my reply to Barhoram) to FCC rules/facts "Over-the-Air Reception Devices Rule - Preemption of Restrictions on Placement of Direct Broadcast Satellite, Multichannel Multipoint Distribution Service, and Television Broadcast Antennas" :

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

From the Q&A section at above link :

Q: Whose antenna restrictions are prohibited?

A: The rule applies to restrictions imposed by local governments, including zoning, land-use or building regulations; by homeowner, townhome, condominium or cooperative association rules, including deed restrictions, covenants, by-laws and similar restrictions; and by manufactured housing (mobile home) park owners and landlords, including lease restrictions. The rule only applies to restrictions on property where the viewer has an ownership or leasehold interest and exclusive use or control.

Sometimes I just print off the otard stuff and send it anonymously to my HOA. I did notice that this years annual bylaws "reminder" didn't include an antenna prohibition, for the first time in the 4 years I've been here <g>. But unless I get some wild hair to try to pull in Lexington (not covered under otard), the attic is working fine.

That's funny Doc. On the other side of the coin -- Reminds me of a fellow telling me how, shortly after putting up his antenna, he saw some "sneaky looking fellow" with darting eyes stuff something in his mail box, which turned out to be documentation spelling out their HOA's illegal rules on antennas .... The story reminded me of the Nazi's in "The Blues Brothers" for some reason ...

BTW, My understanding is, OTARD covers antennas up to 12ft above roofline -- pretty much no matter what --- There is no gain/size restriction/etc, just that it be a antenna used for broadcast TV. IF you can get Lexington with such an antenna(s), you would be fine, and covered by OTARD .... such an antenna of course would(or could depending upon your antenna(s) choices)likely improve reception of Cincinnati area LP analog stations(WBQC/WOTH/W61DE) as well .... But yeah, you wouldn't be covered to put up a 60Foot mast in order to pull in a distant station when other local signals are available.

Originally posted by Nitewatchman


I'm curious though --- Prior to WXIX-DT/WPTO-DT being down this morning+past few mornings as Doc reported, when is the last time you've seen a post here that reported that a Cincinnati Digital station was off the air?



I read all the time on this forum that someone has to call the local station and have them "throw the switch". I assume that means you're getting analog and no HD. I don't think that switch being thrown effects TWC customers at all.

Funny story to relate. Our apartment manager and one of the higher-ups in the rental group one day decided that everyone in the complex had to lower their satellite antennas below the railing of the balconys. This violates the laws the FCC set forth for reception(See Nitewatchman's post). After I did a little research, I went to confront the apartment manager on the notice that was posted on our door(she was conveintly{sp} out of the office) and I was unable to get past the receptionist at the main office when I called(apparently there was no one in @3:00pm). That night I took the time to highlight all the issues that related to antenna placement and e-mailed a copy to ALL the property managers and anyone in a position over the managers. I may have also told them I would contact the FCC or a lawer or something to that effect. Anyway the next day the OWNER of Fath Property Management came around our complex and told just about everyone that their antennas were just fine. Now it seems to me that since all the antennas here have to be placed in a so called "common area" it shouldn't matter where or what kind of antenna anyone would place at their house as long as it poses non danger to anyone and stays within the 12' above the roofline the rules from the FCC state.

You may want to send the HOA or whoever an ANONYMOUS copy of these laws and regulations.(I unfortunately didn't think far enough ahead to do that and now the manager sort of hates me since I got her into a world of $hit with her bosses)

Originally posted by Sea Ray
I read all the time on this forum that someone has to call the local station and have them "throw the switch". I assume that means you're getting analog and no HD. I don't think that switch being thrown effects TWC customers at all.

I have called WCPO & WLWT several times to have them turn on the HD feed and I am a TWC customer.

Originally posted by Sea Ray
I read all the time on this forum that someone has to call the local station and have them "throw the switch". I assume that means you're getting analog and no HD. I don't think that switch being thrown effects TWC customers at all. The "switch" we're referring to is the one that puts high definition programming on the digital transmitter. For the most part, the digital transmitters are on the air 24/7, but with upconverted SD programming most of the time. We call the station when a program "available in HDTV" (such as "CSI") starts off in SD (which you'll see on the cable systems too, since they're fed from the same encoders and routers).

All this talk of OTARD is making me anxious to put up an obnoxously huge antenna on the roof. Not that I even have a HOA.

Advanced Antenna of Milford seems to have evaporated into thin air, or at least disconnected their telephone. Any other recommendations for an installer before I randomly call DSS installers? I was cool with doing the attic one myself, but I ain't no dancin' chimney sweep.

I am getting TWC hooked up in December with my HD TV shortly to follow in early January. I asked them about the HD DVR they are supposed to have been getting "later this year". They told me that the model they were planning on releasing still has too many bugs, cost was too high, and didn't have a big enough hard drive for what TWC wanted. I'm pretty sure they must have been planning on getting the SA8000HD.

They told me that the release date of the HD DVR's would likely start to roll out in January with a new model they have been beta testing and have have good success with. He said they get a few boxes in a week and go out to folks on a waiting list. He went ahead and put me on the waiting list for it. He said it is basically a waiting list for beta testers right now but more should be coming down the pipe early in the year assuming testing continues to go well.

Does anyone know what unit they are beta testing? I'd like to check out the specs and find out if it will have an active DVI or HDMI port. Also curious what size drive is in it.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere in this thread that someone already had it but I cannot find the post.

I would appreciate any info that is out there. And if you are a TWC subscriber and are thinking of getting the HD DVR box, you may want to call and get put on the waiting list.

Mike

Anyone have an idea as to whats up with WXIX? They have been off almost all day.

Strange that XIX has been off since this morning. WPTO seems ok. I wonder what is going on with them? They were only able to show us half the Bengals game yesterday and now they have been off all day.

hi mchuckp, I live in Insight territory, but 'm hoping that TWC is onto some decent equipment and we find out the details. Then maybe Insight will get the same equipment. I'm going to stay with DirecTV until they do. And when they do I won't sub with them until they put me on top of a waiting list. I'm looking for a receiver with 2 HD tuners and 1 Antenna-In.

once again - wcpo looked like crap last night.. it was especially bad given the green concrete that they play on in indy.

jim

Jim, I agree, the "jaggies" were even worse last night than the week before. Also, I sent them an email last week and they never acknowledged it. Lets all keep those emails going, but is there anything else we can do?

What was with WLW during Vegas? During the first commercial break we saw about eight repetitions of a peacock getting feathers on it. Then when they came out of break it was in SD. Took til the next commercial break to go back to HD.

As to Insight: I've been pretty satisfied with the Motorola 6208 they rent me. Price is cheap. 80 gig hard drive. Records HD. Need a $1000 Tivo to do the same.

As to the two tuner? I'm not even sure the beast exists. Seen rumors of "coming". But here's the thing, the only time it would be needed is when you want to record HD or Premium and watch HD or Premium. I couldn't do that with my Replay. Unless I'm missing something, that's always been a two box setup.

WXIX AND WPTO HAS BEEN OFF DUE TO TOWER PAINTING AT WXIX SITE.

As to the two tuner? I'm not even sure the beast exists. Seen rumors of "coming". But here's the thing, the only time it would be needed is when you want to record HD or Premium and watch HD or Premium

hroeder, im confused. I thought your Insight setup, the Motorola 6208, precludes you from watching ANYTHING live (say on channel X) while recording anything (say on channel Y)? Are you saying that there certain channels or category of channels that you can watch while the DVR is recording? Can you even change the channel when the DVR is recording without stooping the recording, without switching to another input (or another box)?

Originally posted by dtv insider
WXIX AND WPTO HAS BEEN OFF DUE TO TOWER PAINTING AT WXIX SITE.

Ahh, That explains it .... Thanks dtv insider.

I wonder if there is any way the Next time something like this happens -- (Planned work) and especially before(or during) a HD Bengals game/etc, that WXIX(or any other station for that matter) could find a way to notify their viewers about it? If not via a on-air message, then via their website or newsletter/etc of some sort.

For instance, during 2002 HD Winter Olympics, WLWT-DT would run a message on screen several times an hour saying they would be going off air for extended periods after the Olympics. (Not only for the tower work I mentioned earlier, but I believe they also got a new transmitter at that time).

Originally posted by ItzMe
hroeder, im confused. I thought your Insight setup, the Motorola 6208, precludes you from watching ANYTHING live (say on channel X) while recording anything (say on channel Y)?

Insight will install a signal splitter when installing the HDTV Unit. That signal splitter will allow the analog channels to be split off to any source. Actually it will send any channels to any source, you just can't watch the digital channels without a converter box.

So my Motorola box is connected to my Hitachi via DVI input.

I have an Antenna In on the Hitachi, which takes a separate lead from the split. I can Record with the Motorola and watch any of the analog channels.

I have similar leads that go to my DVD Recorder and my Media Center PC.

I've watched a program on Antenna A, while recording another on the DVD recorder, while recording a third on the Motorola box. Of course, only the Motorola box will record and play premium and HDTV channels.

So last night I could have recorded Vegas in HD, watched or recorded Miami CSI in analog, and watched or recorded two other shows within the first 70+ channels.

It's a pretty standard setup. And Insight actually installed a new splitter for me and tested the signal strength on all nodes. Can't say every installer is that nice, but mine was. (No charge.)

hroeder, thanks! And thats a nice setup. I guess you just get used to changing the inputs on the Hitachi when you want do all that. I want to accomplish something very similar, but I guess I've been spoiled by my Hughes e86 HD receiver. See the antenna goes into the Hughes and the Sat In goes into the Hughes and the unit integrates my analog, and local HD antenna, and sat channels into the same input. For example, as I scroll channels I see channel 5 from the satellite, then channel 5 from the antenna, then 5-1 (HD from the antenna). Thats why I keep crying for a multi-tuners DVR in one receiver (using a single component cable). My Pany has plenty of inputs, so thats not a problem. Other have posted here that splitting has been a challenge with them, or not possible. Regardless, Hmmm, anyway thanks, you got me thinking now about all the potential hookup schematics.

Jeff..

Both WXIX-DT and WKRC-DT are now down. Man, did you EVER jinx things with that on-the-air 24/7 comment!! :D

On the plus side, WRGT-DT is now booming in here like a local.

LOL ... and I thought it would be WCPO-DT/WCPO going down or into "low power mode" for WBQC's new antenna/tower work for 38, if they don't have it up there already ...

Update: Not sure how long they've been back up, but WKRC-DT is on air at 6:20~6:25pm .... Hard to say what it might "mean", but I'm only getting 50% on the signal quality meter from them(no dropouts though so far) -- usually, it's at 100%.

I'm getting WKRC-DT 50% signal at my location as well. I was hoping to see Billionaire in HD tonight on XIX but I guess its not going to happen this week.


Looking forward to see how well WBQC signal does at its new channel location. I can barely see them now on 25.




WKRC-DT is off as of approx 10PM

Originally posted by microbob
WKRC-DT is off as of approx 10PM

I think they came back up shortly after that .... Now getting 75% on the signal quality meter currently(10:52pm) from WKRC-DT, and almost getting a lock on them off my Dayton UHF antenna(25 element UHF Yagi), which is aimed approx. 140 degrees off target from Cincy -- Usually, I can get reception of WKRC-DT for the most part just fine with the Dayton antenna.

ItzMe

Motorola does have a two tuner box. 6412, or some number like that. But by itself it doesn't mean anything. The cable company has to support it.

I could do component switching through my Harmon Kardon receiver. But I prefer the DVI picture for general viewing. The Hitachi has the capability of switching everything with one input. . .i.e. the TV will control all components.

As it is, it's two buttons for any change.

I keep dickering with a set top box so I can get XIX and the like, but have so far convinced myself that sooner or later XIX will actually decide to negotiate with cable companies. I keep telling Insight I don't need 9 PBS channels in HD. . .maybe they'll at least pick up TNT in the near future. . .

Guys,

Thanks for all of the suggestions on antenna installations. I think I am going to try the attic route first, and see how the results go. I have 2 quick questions:

1) Other than radio shack, are there any local stores that sell (and stock) a variety of antennas. The channel master webpages shows nobody local to cincinnati. Any recommendations on a medium sized antenna that I might mount in my attic and pick up cincinnati stations. Would it be worth trying a non-directoional antanna to try and pick up dayton too?? Amplifier suggestions welcome as well. I see Loews carries the channel master 3042 and 3041DSB amplifiers.

2) A little bit off topic, but I have a question about WB64's Digital channel. I get reception fine on my DirectTV HD tuner, but recently purchaced an ATI HD wonder to record HD on my computer. I can not tune 64-1 on the HD wonder, even though it shows 100% signal strength. Is perhaps the channel mapped to a diffent number that I should try to tune??

Thanks! What a great local thread.

barhoram

Lowes has a few antennas. Rather than an omni, if you can't do the rotor thing, I'd get two directionals and an A/B switch. Got my combo from them. Got one of my yagis from RS and the big one off the 'net.

WSTR-DT's actual channel is 33.

The word on the TWC HD-DVR seems to be getting consistent. January at the earliest. Next time I call I'll ask the model number. The last knowledgeable CSR told me the problem so far is that the box isn't getting 2 way communication, only one way. That means no on-demand, but more significantly, no program guide. No program guide, and all you can do is record what's on right in front of you, pause and rewind, and so forth, not very useful if you are beta testing...

Chazcron,

Are the problems you are referring to about the TWC HD-DVR in reference to the SA8000HD? Whatever they do, I hope they get it all resolved and get a unit that works well by Jan or Feb. That is when I'm getting my HDTV. Please post if you do find out what unit they are currently testing. I'd like to research it a bit and see if it has DVI or HDMI.

Thanks,
mchuckp

I received a pricing change brochure supplement for Time Warner Cable with my latest bill. In the brochure it shows the replacement cost for the following two HD DVR's, SA8000HD and SA8300. The DVR service was $9.95 unless you have Digipic 2000, then the price was $4.95. The box is the same price as the regular digital/hd box. I think I'm currently paying $7.66 a box. By the way pricing change was not bad, around $2.50 for Digipic 1000 and Road Runner combo.

Just noticed that the Bengals game is the lone late CBS game, this weekend, and it's not a CBS doubleheader week. Reason I bring it up: if it goes past 7 and CBS starts primetime for the rest of the East/Central time zone on time, we may not get CBS primetime in HD Sunday night.

why is that doc?

Any word when XIX digital will be backup and running? I've sent them an e-mail to no avail. Very frustating lately after KRC went dark yesterday.

I read the HD forum daily. DrDon keep up the good work!!!!!!!!

Latest call revealed that it probably is the SA 8000 HD, which has the future DVI capacity, but in almost all markets, the DVI is not yet enabled. I just bought a 30" HDTV for the bedroom and chose to put a sd-dvr on it instead of the HD set top. I can hardly stand to wait.

I'm tired of not getting a straight answer about why TW hasn't sealed the deal with WXIX. Who is foot dragging?

Upgrade.. Thanks, man.

Tressler..

CBS only has two dedicated HD-to-affiliate pathways. During Sunday primetime, that's one for east, one for west ("60 Minutes" is fed upconverted, so there's an hour where eastern and pacific overlap). If CBS chooses to start primetime ON time for eastern/central, then the HD feed will be synched with that. Bengals-Redskins markets will get timeshifted SD primetime. Since the HD chain is idle late Sunday afternoon, I'm expecting that to happen.

NOW.. CBS has been known to join football at 7pm on non doubleheader weeks. But I've noticed they only do that when there's a late game on the HD chain. Couple that with the fact it's November sweeps and affiliates like to be on time whenever possible, and the odds of us getting HD primetime this Sunday get thinner. CBS DOES pre-feed Sunday primetime in HD on Sunday mornings for stations in these situations to record. I don't know if either WHIO or WKRC is capable of catching that pre feed.

Hopefully, I'm as wrong as an exit poller.

Update: WXIX is back up as of 3:30p. Was off and on until a bit ago. Seems to be staying for now. DANG. Jinxed 'em. They're off. They're back on. I give up. <sigh>

Update on my antenna quest:


After the suggestions from this thread and reading the rest of the locals forums, I tried 3 antennas today. I purchaced a Radio shack double bow tie, CM 3016 (from Lowes) and a Winegard Square Shooter.

My intent is to install the antenna in the attic space direcly above our bedroomm. For trials, I opened the 3 bay windows in the bedoom and placed the antennas on a chest of drawers. The windows face due south.


My results were...interesting. On my DTC-100, I consistenly get readings in the upper 60's to mid 70's with all of then antennas on all of the digital channels. Installing an amp in line made no difference. I belive the CM 3016 was actually a few numbers higher than the other two, but not significatly. Two questions: Are the antennas going to perform the same in the attic directly above where I held the tests? Can the $19 radio shack bow tie really perforem as good at the $40 CM and $120 Square shooter?

barhoram,

Did you find the Square Shooter in a store locally? I would like to try one out myself.

Thanks,

Scott

I guess I am confused... can't they just cut into it and join it allready in process?



Originally posted by DrDon
Upgrade.. Thanks, man.

Tressler..

CBS only has two dedicated HD-to-affiliate pathways. During Sunday primetime, that's one for east, one for west ("60 Minutes" is fed upconverted, so there's an hour where eastern and pacific overlap). If CBS chooses to start primetime ON time for eastern/central, then the HD feed will be synched with that. Bengals-Redskins markets will get timeshifted SD primetime. Since the HD chain is idle late Sunday afternoon, I'm expecting that to happen.

NOW.. CBS has been known to join football at 7pm on non doubleheader weeks. But I've noticed they only do that when there's a late game on the HD chain. Couple that with the fact it's November sweeps and affiliates like to be on time whenever possible, and the odds of us getting HD primetime this Sunday get thinner. CBS DOES pre-feed Sunday primetime in HD on Sunday mornings for stations in these situations to record. I don't know if either WHIO or WKRC is capable of catching that pre feed.

Hopefully, I'm as wrong as an exit poller.

Update: WXIX is back up as of 3:30p. Was off and on until a bit ago. Seems to be staying for now. DANG. Jinxed 'em. They're off. They're back on. I give up. <sigh>

Join "60 minutes" half an hour late during ratings sweeps? Not likely. Plus, they'd have to rebate advertisers for viewers who didn't see the pre-empted commercial breaks. Not gonna do that when they have the ability to run multiple (albeit SD) primetime feeds simultaneously. In the past, they've had as many as four Sunday primetime feeds going at the same time, each one off by ten minutes to half an hour so that each market got the whole primetime lineup. "60 Minutes" is quite a moneymaker. "Cold Case" is a ratings powerhouse. They'd rather run them in their entirety late than to cut them at all. If a game goes late enough, it's the movie they'll dump. The HD feed will be attached to the largest "group" of synchronized markets.

Originally posted by barhoram
On my DTC-100, I consistenly get readings in the upper 60's to mid 70's with all of then antennas on all of the digital channels.


Keep in mind, even though it says "strength" in the DTC-100's "antenna info" screen, the meter is NOT a signal strength meter. In short, probably Best way to think of it is a "signal quality" meter. You can even get high readings off it with a fairly weak signal, just a few db above the threshold(16db S/N) required for Good DTV reception. Generally speaking, on the DTC-100, a reading of 28~29 produces a signal lock, and steady readings as low as 34~40 or so can be enough for "perfect" DTV reception. It may take higher readings if interference(or intermod created by overloaded preamps/etc) are an issue, or if Multipath is an issue. Interference or multipath issues often show up as readings which fluctuate -- sometimes greatly.

Oh -- just a FYI -- probably not a good idea to try to gauge you reception from WXIX-DT currently, however --- as Doc mentioned, they are occasionally up one minute, and down the next this afternoon.

Originally posted by barhoram
Are the antennas going to perform the same in the attic directly above where I held the tests?


Well, the antenna itself will perform the same(except in the sense that anything near the antenna will be in effect "connected" to the antenna, and part of it), but the signal conditions are going to be different. As for if your reception will be as good/better/worse in the attic(I think that's what you're probably asking), no one can say ... You'll just have to try it. I've often found that near a window facing the towers often provides the best reception from indoors, because there is less signal atteunation through a window than through a wall/roof/etc. But, it might not work out that way in your specific circumstance.

Preamp is going to help you most to help recover losses from long coax runs -- It can't "boost" the signal at the antenna, or in other words "pull in" more signal than what the antenna itself can get. For various reasons, Sometimes, Preamps can help, sometimes they can hurt, and sometimes, they won't make any "visable" difference.

Originally posted by barhoram
Can the $19 radio shack bow tie really perforem as good at the $40 CM and $120 Square shooter?


On VHF, the CM3016(VHF/UHF) would outperform the other two, which are UHF antennas that will have no gain on VHF(WCPO-DT 10 is VHF, the other Cincinnati/Dayton digitals are UHF - See first post of this thread for info on the actual RF channels they transmit on+the PSIP remapped channels/etc) Rabbit ears or a coat hanger would likely do better on VHF.

So ... Speaking Solely Gain wise on UHF -- SS gain specs indicate 4.5db average gain across UHF TV Band. CM3016 specs indicate average of 9.5db average gain across UHF TV band.

Sqaure shooter specs here:

http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/ss1000.pdf

CM3016/Advantage series CM antenna Specs here:

http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg4.htm

I couldn't find any specs on it, but would expect the RS DBT performance, Gain wise to be somewhere between the Squareshooter(which is a fairly lo-gain antenna, along the lines of the Silver sensors and the Sensars/etc)and the CM3016, which should offer the best performance of these 3 antennas.

====

------ Oh another thought -- Again, you probably can't really tell a whole lot about how well your antenna is working from your receivers "signal meter"(unless it include as SNR reading/etc -- some PC Tuner cards do) --- for the digital stations --- But YOU CAN tell a LOT about how well it is working by looking at the analog stations. If the analogs come in clear(little or no snow/ghosting) then, you should be in good shape for the digitals as well. From Cincinnati, setting things up to get the best possible reception from Low power analogs on 25,38+61 may especially be useful, although don't expect a lot from those from indoors -- But, then again, if you're getting good , continously dropout free reception(meaning at all times/during all seasons/etc) from all the digital stations(or, good reception from whatever stations you wish to receive), IMO, I wouldn't worry too much about anything else, including what the signal meter numbers "say" ....

Scott,

Best Buy carries a Terk antenna which is a rebadged Square Shooter. (There is a W on the front of it, just like the Winegard one). I picked up an open box one to try, as i heard good things about it. They had plenty on the shelf at the BB in springboro. From my first test...it didnt perform any better that the radio shack bow tie.....i will have more time to mess with it over the next few days. I was hoping to get number in the high 90's from my lociation 20 miles and open line to the towers.

Originally posted by barhoram I was hoping to get number in the high 90's from my lociation 20 miles and open line to the towers.


I wouldn't worry too much about that. For instance In addition to my above post on this matter(Which you probably haven't seen yet since your last post came in a minute after I posted) -- I would note that I'm probably getting something like between 40~60db of Signal over noise from the high power cincinnati digital stations, and the DTC-100's signal quality meter shows:

88 for WKRC-DT 31 (remaps to 12-1)
88 For WXIX-DT 29 (remaps to 19-1) (When they are on the air that is)
88 for WCPO-DT 10 (remaps to 9-x)
88 for WPTO-DT 28 (remaps to 14-x)
88 for WSTR-DT 33 (remaps to 64-1)
88 for WCET-DT 34 (remaps to 48-x)
93~94 for WLWT-DT 35 (remaps to 5-x)
76~82 for WCVN-DT 24 (remaps to 54-x)


For just about everything except WCVN-DT(which really IS quite a bit weaker signal than the others) I have to pad (add extra attenuation into the feedline) the signals by 30+ DB JUST to get the meter readings to start dropping ...

There are numerous factors besides signal strength which can influence the signal quality meters on receivers such as DTC-100 and most STB's, including, from what we've seen some factors completely unrelated to "reception" that you can do nothing about.

While for the most part it doesn't hurt to get as much "clean" signal as you can -- but again, Higher numbers aren't going to necessarily improve your reception, nor do they necessarily mean you are getting a "very strong" signal. With the DTC, from what I've seen, If you can get steady readings in the 70's or 80's, you're doing good. And, Any number is fine as long as you're getting good, dropout free reception at all times -- That CAN happen with a reading as low as "34", but it's probably good to at least get into the 50's or more if possible.

-------------------------------------------

Update/edit :

Just so you know I'm not just "pulling your leg" -- as I know it's a little hard to believe when it says "strength" right on the screen :

At following link(among other things), there is some discussion of ATSC receiver design(This document was put out by Zenith, who "invented" the 8VSB transmission system used for DTV in the U.S.), and has loads of other great info on OTA DTV/ATSC(Including results of 2600 "early" field tests) as well :

http://www.atscforum.org/doc/FieldTestReport.pdf

Follows is an excerpt from this document concerning how implementation of "signal meters" can be achieved in DTV receivers, from 1st paragraph of page 3 - I've put the last part in all caps :

"The MPEG data sync is reinserted at the receiver output for subsequent processing in the receiver's MPEG transport decoder. The one-segment long binary frame sync not only provides pseudo-random number sequences(PN) for data frame synchronization, but can also be used as a training signal for the receiver's equalizer AND AS A MEANS TO MEASURE RECEIVED SIGNAL QUALITY."

--------------------------------

I don't know about other receivers(but I expect many others use this method to some degree as well), but, from what I can tell, it certianly seems like the "meters" on my RCA DTC-100 AND Zenith HDV420 are implemented in the manner described in the paragraph above --- Or, in a VERY similar way.

Well, just ran across a press release on another thread that indicates Scripps stations that are ABC affiliates aren't going to run "Saving Private Ryan" Tomorrow night. See here for the reasons(Thanks Janet .... :rolleyes: ) /etc :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4636924#post4636924

----------

Since WCPO is owned by Scripps, I'm assuming they won't air it either. If they don't for those who haven't seen it, hopefully you'll be able to see it in HD from WKEF-DT Dayton IF THEY air it -- I caught it 2 or 3 years ago on WCPO-DT(before there was a dayton ABC HD affiliate), and it was excellent HD PQ(IMO), and, uncut - Just a couple of commercial breaks, I think that's what they are planning on this time as well.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Update: current WCPO/WCPO-DT schedule for tomorrow night(11/11) from the WCPO Website :

8 p.m. Thanksgiving Across America
9 p.m. WCPO Presents: A Month Of Sundays

Current WKEF-DT Dayton Schedule from TitanTV for 11/11 at 8-11pm :

Saving Private Ryan (HD, 1998, ****)

Jeff,

Thanks for the wealth of information.

Here is what my DTC-100 shows: (with RS bow tie)

9 76
5 76
64 72
54 66
48 76
19 off
14 76
12 58


I'm wondering why I'm getting such a high reading for (9), and such a low reading for (12)?

I will try and repeat with the Square Shooter.

I would say you are doing good. I'm getting lower readings from WKRC-DT 31(12-1 remap) the last few days as well, I expect that it's something on their end, given their off air period last night+even lower readings I+microbob were getting last night.

on WKRC-DT I get:

88 from DTC 100(that's all the time - well, except now ;) ) -- It's now "70".

100%(it's a bar scale)(again all the time except now) on Zenith HDV420 -- It's now about 70~75% -- Last night, after they came back up it was about 50%.

------------------------------------------

I have no idea what sort of problems they are having(hopefully it's not too serious), but, I do know the coldest weather of the year(especially since it's been below freezing for hours at a time, and then, has gotten quite warm "in the sun") can sometimes have quite an effect on the parts of the RF transmission system that are outdoors/on the tower/etc. (Transmission lines/etc).

Great. Thanks! Looks like I can settle in to watch LOST tonight and not worry about any dropouts.

Originally posted by barhoram
Can the $19 radio shack bow tie really perforem as good at the $40 CM and $120 Square shooter?

Isn't that bowtie awesome? There was a period of nine months or so where Radio Shack discontinued it last year. It was on clearance for $2, so, being an evil capitalist, I called up all the Rat Shacks in towns and cleared 'em out. I had over 30. I then contacted the Columbus warehouse, but somebody beat me to the punch! anyway, I hocked 'em all on eBay for between $20-$35 a pop. then two months later Radio brings it back!

Yes, that bowtie simply rocks! I'm too far away to use it myself, but for urban dwellers, especially apartment dwellers (I shipped most of them to NYC area apartments) they work wonders.

Supposedly Sinclair ABC affiliates will not air Saving Private Ryan now either.

Hello, I've been around the AVS board for a while now, but just recently stumbled across this thread and I don't have nearly the time to peruse all 1432 posts! So forgive me if I could have found my answer by reading the thread more thoroughly :)

I'm asking for specific antenna suggestions. I've read anything from Rat Shack bowties, to Silver Sensors, to Sq. Shooters, and just about everything in between. I don't mind buying something, giving it a test drive, and returning it if necessary, but I'd like to narrow down my choices.

Ideally, I'd like an attic mount (I have D*, so I'm not totally against outdoor). I'm in Ross (a tad west of Hamilton) and the farthest Cincy tower is 20.1 miles (ch 12). I'm not too concerned with picking up the Dayton stations, but if I can, that would be fine. My two-story house is at the top of a hill with only a handful of other two-story dwellings nearby (we're at the end of the cul-de-sac).

So what I'm asking is what antennas do you feel I would have success placing in the attic and picking up Cincy towers?

As I said before, sorry if I could have found this elsewhere, but I figure you all would have ideas right off the top of your head.

Thanks!

chris, most of ross twp sits fairly high, so you should be able to get the cincinnati stations no problem - I am in hamilton township which is about the same elevation as you, and I too am about 21 miles from the towers - I use the winegard sensar 1000 (non amplified) and have had no problems (except WCPO tropo for 1 night over the summer) with it. When Directv upgraded me to the high def dish, they sent one of the sensars and it works fine - it also mounts on a standard dss mast.

hope that helps

jim

That helps tremendously, Jim. Thank you. I just moved and the D* installer was just out this past Tuesday to install the oval dish. I guess I should have asked about an OTA antenna when I called to schedule the install.

Bengals in HD? http://www.sportsline.com/cbssports

If it's true, then you can throw my whole no-HD on Sunday night warning in the trash, as I'd hoped you could.

dont hold your breath doc.. according to directv....

Sunday, November 14 Time (EST) Chan. Enhanced
Chan. HD
Chan.
Tampa Bay Buccaneers at Atlanta Falcons 1:00 pm 706 90
Chicago Bears at Tennessee Titans 1:00 pm 707 91
Detroit Lions at Jacksonville Jaguars 1:00 pm 708 702 92
Seattle Seahawks at St. Louis Rams 1:00 pm 709 703 93
Baltimore Ravens at New York Jets 1:00 pm 710 94
Kansas City Chiefs at New Orleans Saints 1:00 pm 711
Pittsburgh Steelers at Cleveland Browns 1:00 pm 712 95
Houston Texans at Indianapolis Colts 1:00 pm 713 96
Minnesota Vikings at Green Bay Packers 4:00 pm 714 97
Carolina Panthers at San Francisco 49ers 4:00 pm 715 704
New York Giants at Arizona Cardinals 4:00 pm 716 705 98
Cincinnati Bengals at Washington Redskins 4:00 pm 717

and yet another link..,

http://www.dbsforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=39823

Originally posted by 1450kHz
Supposedly Sinclair ABC affiliates will not air Saving Private Ryan now either.

Yep, although they don't specifically mention Dayton, According to this article ( http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/TV/11/11/movie.canceled.ap/index.html ) I'd guess there will be no HD from WKEF-DT, either.

Strange Sinclair doesn't have info posted all over its website about it yet, though. Considering the "usual" case for them, such as the Stolen Honor thing/etc ..

Originally posted by jim tressler
dont hold your breath doc.. Oh, I'm not. Trust me :). But if DirecTV's right, then CBS is airing 3 HD games simultaneously, something they previously couldn't do. Guess it's "wait and see."

lol.. good point!! oh well.. go browns!

Well, I think it's this info(over in Right Sidebar) currently at link Doc provided that is "interesting" as well :

NFL Football
Baltimore @ N.Y. Jets
1:00 p.m. ET Kickoff
Kansas City @ New Orleans
1:00 p.m. ET Kickoff
Pittsburgh @ Cleveland
1:00 p.m. ET Kickoff
Houston @ Indianapolis
1:00 p.m. ET Kickoff)
Cincinnati @ Washington
4:00 p.m. ET Kickoff (available in HDTV)

Update : WELL it DID say that an hour ago, it now shows this:

Baltimore @ N.Y. Jets
1:00 p.m. ET Kickoff
Kansas City @ New Orleans
1:00 p.m. ET Kickoff
Pittsburgh @ Cleveland
1:00 p.m. ET Kickoff
Houston @ Indianapolis
1:00 p.m. ET Kickoff
Cincinnati @ Washington
4:00 p.m. ET Kickoff


---------------

And, yet, CBS still hasn't updated this as of yet : ( http://cbs.sportsline.com/cbssports/schedules/page/nfl ) To indicate HD games for this coming Sunday ... If the past is any clue, I'd think that should happen soon, and its been accurate so far ...

Doesn't look good presently though ...

Quick update on my antenna tests:


I was able to mount (or place) the CM3016 in the South facing attic of our house a few feet away from the air vent on top of the house wall. Signal dropped to 0-20's on all of the digital channels. I messed with the orientation for a bit, but nothing seemed to help.

I then tried the RS double bow tie and got the same results signal-wise as I did with the antenna in the bedroom below. It looks like (for now) the RS Double bow tie will stay in the bedroom near the window.

Any ideas why no reception with the CM in the attic?? Are the shingles causing the problem. I didnt really get to try the Square shooter in teh attic, but I'm assuming that I would have gotten simialr results as the double bow tie.

ps- 19 appears to be back on now

do you have a lot of metal hurricane ties or other metal in the attic? alluminium siding.. those are all potentiall issues..

Barhoram..

Attics are multipath nightmares. Turn on a bare lightbulb in the middle of the attic and look at all of the shadows. Same thing is happening with TV signals. One point in an attic may give you 0 signal and one foot to the left might peak the meter. Everything up there affects the signal. It can take a lot of time to find the sweet spot. Trust me. Must've tried a dozen different places in mine before I found just the right one. And if that antenna gets nudged just a tiny bit, all of my Daytons go away. And they're 3/4 scale the rest of the time. Best thing to do is to carry a small TV and your STB up there with you and just play around until you find it. Don't sweep with the antenna. Digital takes a second to "lock in." So you move it, check the meter, move it some more, check the meter and so on.

Barhoram,

In addition to the issues mentioned above, as I mentioned earlier, putting the antenna indoors attunuates signals greatly. Usually much less so through a window than through walls, wood, bricks/shingles/etc ....

Also, you might move the antenna just a little bit and get enough signal here, and move it to just a slightly different spot and not get as much, or get a lot of multipath echoes ...

Update: Again -- use the analogs to help you improve your reception -- especially benefical if you are using a small TV in attic(taking your STB up there would be a good idea too, though) You can see the results of reception quality right on the screen with analogs. With analogs, Multipath=ghosts, Snow=weak signal.

Especially since multipath can be quite frequency specific, best to use analogs that are nearby digitals on the dial. For example, Cincy analogs 19,25,38,48 would probably be good to look at for the Cincinnati digitals which transmit on UHF 24,29,31,33,34,35. 9+12 would be good to look at for WCPO-DT 10.

Turn the "off air guides" OFF in the "assistance" menu(which requires you do a "full" channel rescan) on the DTC-100 if you want to tune to the "actual" channels the station transmit on(which are again shown on 1st post of this thread, near the top), instead of their remapped channels. Turning Off air guides off on DTC "turns off" user visable PSIP info sent by the stations. With "off air guides" turned off, You can also deselect analog stations seperately from their digital counterparts in the channel profiles for "channel surfing", something you can't do with the guides on. You can also tune directly to say, "channel 31" with the guides turned on, and the receiver will take you to WKRC-DT, and display "12-1" in the channel info banner.

Originally posted by barhoram
I was able to mount (or place) the CM3016 in the South facing attic of our house a few feet away from the air vent on top of the house wall. Signal dropped to 0-20's on all of the digital channels. I messed with the orientation for a bit, but nothing seemed to help.


Another thought. Make sure you have the correct end of the antenna aimed towards Downtown Cincinnati. It's the SMALL end(the UHF section) which should be aimed towards Cincinnati - In the illustration below(which is tilted on it's side for obvious reasons), it is the Right hand side of antenna that should be aimed towards Cincinnati(but with Horizontal polarization, instead of vertical Polarization) :

|
| |
| |
|===|||| To Cincinnati Towers-->
| |
| |
|


There is a better illustration of this here in center of following page, the CM3016 would be similar to VHF/UHF combo antenna shown in bottom pic :

http://www.wkrc.com/hdtv/receiving_hdtv.aspx

Jeff,

Thanks. Yea, unfortunately that was the way I had it mounted. It is most probably a multipath issue as the house is brick and cedar. The attic is in the shape off all of the cathedral ceilings in the house, so there are plenty of angles to refelct off of.

If I get a chance and anoter hand, I will try different locations for the CM, its probably more of a 2 man job.

Would it be safe to assume that If I was able to mount the CM outdoors from the roof, that I would have no problem gettings readings on the cincinnati digitals in the high 80's?? I'm guessing any indoor install is going to give me about the same results at this point....even if I went with a bigger antenna.

The funny thing is that I was able to get similar signal strentch from our other house in west chester before we moved....and it was a one story ranch. With our new location...being as high up as we are, and a clear path of sight to the south, I though I'd have no problem getting very high signal strentch.

Got this from Insight just now:

Thanks for your email and comments. We are negotiating with Fox 19 to
obtain their HD signal. Other HD content is being evaluated also. I will
forward your comments to our Marketing Department.

Good to hear. Thanks for the update (even though I'm an OTA guy..the more watching, the better!!)

Originally posted by barhoram
Would it be safe to assume that If I was able to mount the CM outdoors from the roof, that I would have no problem gettings readings on the cincinnati digitals in the high 80's??


It is safe to assume(given there are no nearby signal obstructions, such as say, a brick building near the antenna and in the signal path) you will get stronger signals from Outdoors, and likely the case better (and easier)reception will ensue, but that might not necessarily mean higher readings off the receiver's signal quality meter. Probably, but not necessarily. See my earlier comments/posts concerning the signal quality meters on our receivers.

Originally posted by barhoram
It is most probably a multipath issue as the house is brick and cedar. The attic is in the shape off all of the cathedral ceilings in the house, so there are plenty of angles to refelct off of.

Neither wood(including Cedar) nor Brick should be big problems(Multipath "causers") where multipath is concerned. Foil backed insulation, a nearby water tower, A/C wiring in the Attics or walls though are another story. Basically, if the material involved conducts electricity fairly well, it could be a multipath "causer". Wood/Brick between antenna+signal path are going to attenuate the signals more than anything else.

That is not to say non-conductors can't EFFECT the multipath conditions at a given location -- For an extreme example, if a brick wall is in between a antenna(a outdoor antenna)+the tower, and a water tower is off to say, the right of the antenna, you'll probably get more of a multipath reflection of signal bouncing off the water tower than you will signal through the brick wall. Remove the brick wall, and you get more "direct" signal, therefore the signal coming off the water tower won't be as much of a problem.(with digital at least, may still cause at least some amount(probably quite visable) ghosting on analog) ....

Again, on analog stations Ghosting=Multipath, Snow=Weak signals. THAT's probably the best way to see what sort of problems you have.

-----------------------------

Update: Really, if you compare reception between the RS DBT and the CM3016 with the antenna in the same spot(or nearly the same spot), one would think you should at least see slightly better results with the CM3016(especially so on VHF ch 2-13), given that you are using the same coax run(or equivelent).

So, just an idea, but you might want to check your connections, and, at least for testing purposes, make sure there is NOTHING between the antenna+the receiver except coax(and the balun). Also --- Check the balun to make sure it's good -- (You could switch the baluns around between the RS DBT+CM3016 to check that)/etc ...

CBS website now updated to agree with DirecTV = no Bengals HD, this week.

lol.. Go Browns!!!!!

Originally posted by jim tressler
lol.. Go Browns!!!!! Don't let my wife hear you say that. Not this week, anyway! :)

ok.. so tonights hd lineup sucks.. wkrc-dt is off air, and wcpo-dt (either wussed out or was smart) and is showing some upconverted crap... not much left

jim

Well, depends upon your tastes I suppose. You've Got NBC HD (ER presently) there's PBS HD channel(not sure what was HD+what was WS tonight) - From WCVN-DT, but 48.1 is missing again from WCET-DT, and there was "OC" and "North Shore" in HD from Fox.

Latest from Fox19 HD.

The testing of Bearcat Basketball in HD ( I am assuming testing of fiber from Shoemaker center) will be the last week of the November! :) wooohooo!
However no word on when TWC will carry FoxHD. ( I only deal with Tech people at Fox19, so they probably don't know much about this. )

I can't wait to see the tread marks on the foreheads of all the guys Maxiell and Hicks are going to dunk on this year!

This is a tad OT, but I know there are several Cincy AVS members (including myself) hoping to see a Samsung HLP4674W in person. Well, I just got off the phone with Ovation AV (http://www.ovation-av.com/default.aspx) on Mason-Montgomery Road in Mason and they are setting one up for display as I type this.

Apparently, they just opened for business in this area a couple (few?) weeks ago.

Sorry if this is too OT...mod, please move if you feel the need.

luebster,

I'm certianly not a mod, but I think your post is completely on topic -- The topic is, HD info+reception info in Cincinnati .. Meaning -- anything related to HD on the local level *is* on topic ...

ovation is not a bad store... I live just a few minutes away and paid them a visit.. they only opened last week I belive.. but they seemed to know their stuff.. they are in the new deerfield towne centre in the southwest corner. see you all there!

jim

Ovation: I hope they are willing to wheel and deal a good price! I spoke with them briefly on the phone and they do have a warranty that covers they bulb!

I was just checking out WCET's Schedule on the web and noticed on their CET Kids web page that they say "CET Kids is only available on Time Warner Digital Cable." I guess they think no one recieves thier signal over the air. I had heard that several PBS stations are thinking of giving up the analog channel completely before the federal mandate. I guess they are trying to just be another cable channel.

I was just checking out WCET's Schedule on the web and noticed on their CET Kids web page that they say "CET Kids is only available on Time Warner Digital Cable." I guess they think no one recieves thier signal over the air. I had heard that several PBS stations are thinking of giving up the analog channel completely before the federal mandate. I guess they are trying to just be another cable channel.

libertytwp,

I think that's just a snafu/misunderstanding/error on their website. They are trying to say, where the cablecos are concerned, the multicast service is only available via TW DIGITAL cable service not analog cable+not other cableco's, not that it's not available OTA. However, that info is a little old, as it even shows on their channel charts than Insight had the multicast service beginning in Nov 2003. This is what it says:


quote:
How do I get CET Kids, CET Plus and CET You?
At this time, CET Kids, CET Plus and CET You are only available to Time Warner Digital Cable customers. Existing Time Warner customers need to upgrade their service to Time Warner Digital Cable to receive these new channels. We hope to expand this service to other cable companies in the region in the near future.
:end quote


On the very same page ( http://www.cetconnect.org/television/channels.asp ) it also shows the channel charts. This is what it shows for OTA(it also has a chart showing which services are active when they are either in 4 channel multicast mode, or HD mode(+2 multicast services) -- Note that this is correct if your receiver isn't remapping the digital subchannels to 48-x via PSIP :

Over-the-air
Without cable or satellite
CET
48

34.2
DTV only

CET HD
34.1
HDTV only

CET Kids
34.3
DTV only

CET You
34.4
DTV only

CET Plus
34.5
DTV only

I sure hope WXIX will be up and working for football tomorrow. It seems down now.

Originally posted by ItzMe
I sure hope WXIX will be up and working for football tomorrow. It seems down now.

Hopefully they can get back on the air again soon(and continuously), but I wouldn't count on it.

From what it looks like(down one minute+up the next at times on Wed for instance), I think they are probably having transmitter problems, or something similar in addition to the tower painting work. Which is nothing new, although it's been quite a while since they've had any problems. WPTO-DT, on the other hand,(at least when I've checked) has apparently been up 24/7, or nearly so since last Sunday around 2:50pm.

Oh -- By the way -- you never know I suppose, but FWIW, I'd also expect NOT to see any UC games in HD from WXIX-DT unless they come to a "last minute" deal with TW for cable carriage ... the DTV/HD audience is small even With Cable+OTA viewers, take one of those away and it's even smaller -- So, Probably isn't going to be worth it for them to incur the extra expenses for a local HD production with just OTA HD viewers "present".

We'll see what happens, though ...

once again we the fan get fuxed! Probably no hd football today from wxix and the damn blackout rules will make me miss to good nfc games in high def on the sunday ticket and probably no uc games in hd!! as usuall, the fan gets screwed again!

go browns!!!

jim

it seems like in a case like this, DirecTV should be intructed by WXIX to let us see the game on Sunday Ticket. NFL should have no probs with that either.

Originally posted by jim tressler
go browns!!! Fortunately, WXIX isn't carrying that game, so you and I get it in all its HD glory! My old newsguy is coming over "so the Browns will have some representation" in my bar. ;)

I think day of destruction was supposed to be in hd.. according to some.. called wkrc-dt and they knew nothing about it.. said they'd check.. 45 minutes into it and no hd!!!

well.. I called back and like doc said.. because the bungles ran late.. no hd :(

browns suck!!!!

firebutchdavis.com!! that has a good ring

lol.. I think we posted at the same time :)

Originally posted by jim tressler
lol.. I think we posted at the same time :) Yep! :) I deleted mine. The good news is CBS showed they can run 3 net-to-affiliate HD paths. I'd bet one of them was borrowed from UPN, but one can hope more paths will mean staggered HD prime time will be possible in coming seasons, when necessary.

Originally posted by jim tressler
browns suck!!!!


Steelers Rock! :D

steelers are gonna go all the way and i think they have chance at the pats streak :P..i know it's early but they look awesome

It appears we'll get to watch next Sunday's Pitt at Cincy game on CBS in HD.

If the Bengals could play 2 halves of football in one game, Pittsburgh will get its second loss next Sunday.

I give the Steelers all the credit in the world. But they remain a one dimensional team; and one dimensional teams don't win Championships. And One Dimension is not what HD is all about!

Originally posted by Paul210
It appears we'll get to watch next Sunday's Pitt at Cincy game on CBS in HD.

That would be great, but where are you seeing that at?

Currently, Both the CBS sportsline and D* ST ticket sites (which appear to be updated to show next week's HD games already) are showing 3 other CBS games as being HD, NOT the Steelers @ Bengals game.

-----------

In any event, I agree with hroeder. If they play like they did against Denver, throughout the game, Bengals have a good shot at it, IMo. That's a big *if*, though ....

Jeff,

I got that from the infamously wrong TitanTv website in details for the game:

NFL Football
Steelers at Bengals
Scheduled: Pittsburgh at Cincinnati.
program shown in 1080i

I figured it was wrong as usual, but guess I was wishing it was correct.

Paul

Originally posted by hroeder
I give the Steelers all the credit in the world. But they remain a one dimensional team; and one dimensional teams don't win Championships.

UhOh, now you're messing with Doc's wife's team!!

My wife simply pointed to the first sentence of hroeder's post and said, "I rest my case."

Must remember, that even in the worst seasons playing the Browns or Steelers is something the Bengals do. Of course we have to wait and see how many plays Childish Chad gets called for himself. . .

On topic question: Does the network's choice of HD game also factor in what the local affiliate is capable of? If I remember right, the only Bengal games in HD were carried by ABC/ESPN. . .Notre Dame was in HD at Tennessee, but hasn't been at home, if I recall correctly.

Originally posted by hroeder
On topic question: Does the network's choice of HD game also factor in what the local affiliate is capable of? Not really sure I understand your question. The examples you cite are all examples of a team's schedule coinciding with already in-place HD broadcast plans. ESPN Sunday Night Football is always HD regardless of the matchup as is ABC's Monday Night Football. Same with CBS' 3:30 SEC game (Tennessee is SEC). The other HD Benglas game was when they hosted an NFC team, and nearly all NFC games are in HD on Fox (although WXIX-DT was down for most of the game). I'm sure the reason more Notre Dame games aren't HD is because NBC can't sell the upcharge. Not enough consistent games (A lot of Notre Dame games end up on other networks depending on who has rights to the conference of the team they're visiting) and not a big enough audience to make the numbers work.

Am I anywhere near answering your question?

Originally posted by hroeder
If I remember right, the only Bengal games in HD were carried by ABC/ESPN. .

Nope. I hate to repeat what Doc just said, but since we've been through this with you here about 3 or 4 times already, and As has been discussed extensively here, I guess I should restate :

LAST WEEK'S BENGALS GAME WAS HD FROM FOX.

WRGT-DT, FOX Dayton had it in HD throughout, as Doc mentioned, WXIX-DT, Fox Cincinnati Transmitter was off air the first half, but came up for Fox HD Bengals game in Cincinnati for the Second half.

Sorry. I don't think of Fox, because I can't get Fox in HD.

The question, bluntly, is: does the local affiliates ability to bring equipment to the game have an impact on whether it's considered for HD broadcast?

I understand they will choose the national game for the week, plus the other best matchups. The two night games, ESPN and ABC, respectively, (same equipment?) I know were setup for those events. Talked to some electricians who worked on setting up the stadium.

Brought up Notre Dame because we know every Notre Dame game is broadcast to a national network. . .and yet I don't remember a home Notre Dame game being in HD. South Bend being such a technological mecca!

Originally posted by hroeder
The question, bluntly, is: does the local affiliates ability to bring equipment to the game have an impact on whether it's considered for HD broadcast?


No -- The local affilate doesn't do the production for their network -- HD or SD ... Basically, the Network "Hires" a production crew/production truck that does it.

Originally posted by hroeder
Brought up Notre Dame because we know every Notre Dame game is broadcast to a national network. . .and yet I don't remember a home Notre Dame game being in HD. South Bend being such a technological mecca!


Well, very few College games have been in HD on a national level so far -- Partly because HD production costs more(my understanding is that the extra costs are starting to go down though), and Mostly because there are still a limited number of HD equipped Mobile production facilities available(HD Trucks).

It will change though in the future, I'd think -- We'll see more and more stuff in HD -- Probably a long way down the road for it to happen - at least in any "ubiquitious sense" though. But at some point, that will likely even include HD sports on which the production is done on a local level -- By the affiliate, or regional Sports(The Fox sports nets, The "Jefferson Pilots", and the local stations/etc ... I.e. -- UK games, UC games, Miami games/etc ...

Does anyone know what resolution WCPO is broadcasting the Mondy Night Football games in? I have noticed the lines again and I am wondering if they are sending 480p or something like that. It looks to me like a resolution mismatch somewhere. Thoughts on that or am I just crazy?

ABC uses 720p. It looks very good to me as usual via TWC. (But still not as good as CBS!)

Anyone having trouble receiving Fox19 OTA in the last several days?

Zekyl, have also noticed the poor cameras on Monday Night football. Its almost as if the sideline cam starts off in 480, then when the action starts, rolls up to a higher res. Is this even possible? Their PQ has declined from last year.

Originally posted by DevoDave
Anyone having trouble receiving Fox19 OTA in the last several days? Scroll back in the thread, a little. Transmitter had a coronary after being cycled off and on for tower painting. That Harris just wasn't designed to be turned off and on so much. I noticed that it used to fail all the time when they only did half days. No failure since going 24/7. As soon as they started cycling it for the tower crew, it blows a nut. Next time, they should switch it to a dummy load and leave it on. /Rant

Has WCPO responded to anyones emails from a few weeks ago? We may need to go the next route and send snail maill. I have resent my email from two weeks ago again this morning

jim

Thanks for the update Dr. Don. I have just installed a DirecTV HD PVR system, and was integrating OTA and was not able to locate WXIX. I will monitor this thread more closely.

As a football fan, this is a major loss, as Fox HD is the best OTA football coverage hands down. Amazing PQ and Dolby Digital sound. Thanks Fox19!

Dave

DevoDave, can I ask what kind of deal did you get on your DirecTV HD PVR system? Did you pay the $900-$1000 that I've researched? Did DirectTV give you any "special deal"? I ask because I've come so close to getting that system but I just can't seem to justify the cost. I have DirectTV HD now (and love it), but I want the benefits of PVR, but when I consider that Insight will 'rent' me the equipment, I keep thinking thats the smarter route. Anyway, I'd love to hear your thoughts on how you came to the decision and what kind of deal you made to get it.

I got the "$99" hd deal over the summer - which ended up being free after I "negotiated" a little more, but what they did was basically offered me either the hd reciever or the hd tivo with a $300 hardware credit - I opted for the hd reciever only as I can't justify what would have been $700 .. the wife would have shot me!

jim

ps.. you can call customer retention directly 1-800-600-897 - I have been with them 4 years - just the basic total choice package.. others with less time have gotten the deal as well so you just need to be persistant but polite and if it doesnt work the first time, call back. It took me 3 calls and a few mentions of dish network and adelphia deals - which didnt exist of course :)

I received this from WXIX this morning (11/16 11AM):

Thank you for your message. We are currently working on the problem and hope to have the transmitter up and running by the weekend.
Thanks,

Rick Oliver
Operations Manager

Originally posted by ItzMe
DevoDave, can I ask what kind of deal did you get on your DirecTV HD PVR system? Did you pay the $900-$1000 that I've researched? Did DirectTV give you any "special deal"? I ask because I've come so close to getting that system but I just can't seem to justify the cost. I have DirectTV HD now (and love it), but I want the benefits of PVR, but when I consider that Insight will 'rent' me the equipment, I keep thinking thats the smarter route. Anyway, I'd love to hear your thoughts on how you came to the decision and what kind of deal you made to get it.

In July I paid the $1000, but received $300 programming credit. Best money I ever spent. Even my wife loves the TIVO. Ask to speak to customer retention, and your thinking of going to cable or Voom. Now D* just has to get TNT HD, Starz HD and Cinemax HD.

I wish Insight would expand what it broadcast HD. . .but the Motorola 6208 is a nice PVR. . .and it costs me $5 a month. That's a lot of months before I'd pay off an HD Tivo.
I used to have a Replay. . .better schedule; but I can live with the price of the 6208.

Fox19HD Update:

The actual broadcast of any Bearcat HD game will not be until January.
(No specific game has been chosen.)
:(
:(
:(

WXIX-DT is currently on the air at 7:30pm(tue).

About 10 minutes ago, caught them up, but "just barely", Now it's a good strong signal, getting them without dropouts with antenna aimed as far off target as 90 degrees(towards Indy), which is "normal" ...

Update: Beginning at At 19:56:45 , WXIX-DT went back off air again ...