As of approx 8:25PM WXIX-DT is back on again wuth a strong signal.

ItxMe, I am a new subscriber to DirecTV (formerly with Dish Network). I got the HD PVR and dish for esssentially the going rate less the programming credit you have noted here and elsewhere.

I also tossed in an SD PVR as well.

My source was an authorized reseller found on eBay.

I was gathering HD signal OTA (and continue to do so through the DirecTV HD system), and waited until the DVR was "affordable" in HD format prior to placing the order.

Dish made no enticements to me at all for HD as a 7 year subscriber (until I called to cancel service - and then, no deals on the HD PVR unit). Gee, supply and demand stinks sometimes). Adelphia cable is not interested in HD in my area. Being a football nut, going to DirecTV required little thought.

Using DirecTV's HD PVR Tivo for a week has been pure pleasure. Looking forward to an all HD widescreen future.

Dave

Originally posted by Dimitriz
Fox19HD Update:

The actual broadcast of any Bearcat HD game will not be until January.
(No specific game has been chosen.)

Yet one more reason for me to hate Fox.

The only sporting event I give a hoot about and it's in the world's most technically incompetent hands. At least there's a chance one or two UC games will be on ESPN-HD (fingers crossed).

cmf
I noticed a promo on HDnet that looked like they had the Purdu Cincy game on. But I could be wrong cause I don't see it in the HD.net schedule...

http://www.hd.net/op_sports.html It's not up yet, but maybe in the next few days....

Dave

check this out... definatly something to be concerned about

http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/16/1529202&tid=226

jim

Don't know how good slashdot is, but did a quick lookup of the purported bill and found:

This Act may be cited as the `Cooperative Research and Technology Enhancement (CREATE) Act of 2004'.

Basically something proposed by Dell and some other techology firms dealing with patent ownership. Nothing at all to do with the MPAA, unless the Senate is adding ammendments, where it is in committee. Then it would have to go back to the house.

It contains a lot more than patent ownership, here is a nice summary.

http://www.publicknowledge.org/issues/hr2391

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,65704,00.html

The title is definatly misleading because it encomases so much

jim

Can a TW Digital Cable subscriber answer this for me. I live in Greenhills (near Forest Park) and I am getting TW Digital Cable installed next month. Is their cable 100% digital or is there an analog tier and digital tier?

I was under the impression that digital cable subscribers got all digital channels but I obviously could be wrong.

Thanks,
Mike

OK, Jim. What the Senate is talking about is something totally cobbled together. And you're right. This is serious crap. If it gets out of committee and then goes back through the House. The Honorable Mr. Hatch doing his thing, again?

Another attempt to redefine Intellectual Property in Corporate Terms. Or, How Michael Jackson is really The Beatles.

This just in:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2026&e=1&u=/latimests/tivowillnolongerskippastadvertisers

S.2237 is what we should all be concerned with. It would basically make the justice department personal lawyers for the media companies.

H.R.4586 is another one. They are forcing us to watch commercials?? Can we change a channel while a commercial is on? Of course it is only supposed to apply to motion pictures, which many broadcasters are scared to show because of the new FCC regs.(Private Ryan)!

Maybe this is all because Mickey Mouse is on DVD's now???
:mad: :eek: :confused:

Originally posted by mchuckp
Can a TW Digital Cable subscriber answer this for me. I live in Greenhills (near Forest Park) and I am getting TW Digital Cable installed next month. Is their cable 100% digital or is there an analog tier and digital tier?

I was under the impression that digital cable subscribers got all digital channels but I obviously could be wrong.

Thanks,
Mike

I can help you out here. Their cable is not 100% digital. All the channels you get now will not change. You're receiving them analog now and you'll be receiving them analog with their digital cable package. Only the additional channels which will be added in this package will be digital. If you look at their website all channels over 100 are digital. Under 100 is analog.

I will say that I get a very strong analog signal and as such my analog channels do not look much worse than digital on my TV. Make sure they check your signal strength when they come out to hook up your digital package.

Lost was not in HD. I called WCPO for the first time to hit the switch and it worked almost instantly. I would like to think it was because of my call but I'm sure you guys were calling also. thanks for all the numbers.

Originally posted by Sea Ray
I can help you out here. Their cable is not 100% digital. All the channels you get now will not change. You're receiving them analog now and you'll be receiving them analog with their digital cable package. Only the additional channels which will be added in this package will be digital. If you look at their website all channels over 100 are digital. Under 100 is analog.

I will say that I get a very strong analog signal and as such my analog channels do not look much worse than digital on my TV. Make sure they check your signal strength when they come out to hook up your digital package.

Sea Ray, thanks for the info. Analog will be new to me. I've had Dish Network for the last 4 years and switching to TW for 2 reasons:

1. HD DVR through Dish is WAY TOO EXPENSIVE
2. They offered my a killer deal to switch to cable. I'm getting the Digipic 2000, sports tier, variety tier (basically all their channels), showtime, HBO, HD Pack, and a HD DVR PLUS ROAD RUNNER internet for just over $90 a month for one year.

I figured it was worth it to at least try. It is better than paying $1000 for a Dish HD PVR. I will decide in a year if I want to stick with them or go back to dish or maybe direct TV.

So you are happy with the channels being analog? I'm just a bit nervous about switching since I don't know what to expect for quality and I'm getting the Samsung 4674 DLP at the same time. I am just nervous what SD will look like on it, particularly on a larger screen. I currently have a 32" Toshiba tube.

I hope I get the HD DVR from day one. It is still in beta testing but I am on the list to receive one. It just may not be right away. It will kill me to have this nice HDTV but not have HD right away. But I am loving my dish PVR and I cannot imagine life without PVR. So going with a regular HD box isn't an option.

Please give me your overall impressions of TW's signal quality. Are some channels pretty iffy or are they all pretty good? Do you stretch your screen or watch in 4:3? How is HD reception? Does the digital channels tend to be blocky in busy scenes? Would really like to know what to expect!

Thanks for your input!

Mike

Originally posted by mchuckp

So you are happy with the channels being analog? I'm just a bit nervous about switching since I don't know what to expect for quality and I'm getting the Samsung 4674 DLP at the same time. I am just nervous what SD will look like on it, particularly on a larger screen. I currently have a 32" Toshiba tube.


Please give me your overall impressions of TW's signal quality. Are some channels pretty iffy or are they all pretty good? Do you stretch your screen or watch in 4:3? How is HD reception? Does the digital channels tend to be blocky in busy scenes? Would really like to know what to expect!

Thanks for your input!

Mike

Yes, I think analog is decent on my HLN 4365. Feed one analog wire straight from the wall into input A. This will give you channels 1-100 free of any digital compression done by the converter box. It will also give you quite a few channels with which to use PIP. The tradeoff is digital clarity vs digital compression. Overall I don't think the digital channels look much better on my set than the analog. I'll often watch something like ESPN 2 on input A as opposed to a component input because bypassing the converter box is beneficial. When I do this depends on strength of signal and will vary from channel to channel.

For the most part digital channels are not too blocky. Some that are really compressed like the PBS channels (950-4) are blocky indeed. For the most part, I think digital helps the tube sets more than the HD sets as strange as that may sound.

HD is wonderful. If you get a DVI switch from Time Warner that works with your Sammy let me know right away.

Originally posted by cokebear
H.R.4586 is another one. They are forcing us to watch commercials?? Can we change a channel while a commercial is on? Of course it is only supposed to apply to motion pictures, which many broadcasters are scared to show because of the new FCC regs.(Private Ryan)!

Just my opinion: if they really expect me to pay per view, or be forced to watch commercials, or otherwise constrain the media, I personally will simply just read and listen to music that I already own more often. I bought the HDTV for my wife and the occassional sports program / special event. Crap it took 3 months of rigorous training before I coached her into switching from the analog input to the HD version of the prime time line up.

I get more entertainment from setting it up, tweaking the antenna and such than watching the thing! This evening we cooked and cleaned the kitchen, read and played with our child while listening to Monty Python and the Talking Heads on the stereo. The TV was never turned on.

mchuckp,

FYI, the Dish HD PVR 921 is now be offered for $549. Their HD in a Box (Either a 34" tube HDTV or a 40" RPTV HDTV and a 921) is being offered for $999.

Scott

bearcatscott, According to the dishnetwork site, the HD PVR 921 is $999? See link below. Where do you see it for $549. I hope you're correct, because maybe that would cause DirectTV to respond inkind for their Hughes PVR. I'll bet all these units go down in price after Christmas.

http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/products/receivers/hd/index.shtml

Itzme,

The announcement was made on Dish's own Tech Chat 8 December. Dish is very slow to update their own web pages.

Here are a couple of links mentioning the price reduction.

http://www.tvharmony.com/blog/archives/2004/11/dish_hddvr_921.html

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=35267

http://www.dishdepot.com/current_subscribers1.jsp

Scott

Originally posted by bearcatscott
mchuckp,

FYI, the Dish HD PVR 921 is now be offered for $549. Their HD in a Box (Either a 34" tube HDTV or a 40" RPTV HDTV and a 921) is being offered for $999.

Scott

Thanks for the info. I did hear recently that they dropped the price. But again, the deal from TW seemed pretty incredible. I already have Roadrunner, so that is $45/month. So I'm getting nearly everything they have plus 2 premiums, HD pack, and HD DVR (when it arrives) for basically $45 for an entire year. I'm also dying to get The Tennis Channel which Dish does not offer. It can't hurt to try them out. I figure in a year from now, I can hopefully get equipment from Dish Network for a good price. Maybe I can even get them to hook me up with deep discounts to come back. Maybe Directv wants my business. Of course, I may fall in love with TW. Who knows. Either way, I'm just thrilled to be getting my new Samsung 4674 DLP in a few weeks, no matter who's signal is hooked up to it!

Thanks again,
Mike

p.s. If anyone else wants this deal, it is for anyone switching over from satellite. This wasn't a special deal for me. They just don't advertise it. You just have to show them a receipt from a Dish company to prove you were a customer. Also, if you want to give them any equipment, they will give you $50 for every piece you want to give up. I'm keeping all my dish stuff in case I go back. I have a standard receiver, a PVR, and the satellite will remain on my roof. The deal was offered to me when I got RR hooked up a few months back. I passed at the time, but how that I am getting an HDTV TV, I figured I'd try it. Just call them for info (489-Beep).

I got the same deal from TWC when I moved to a new house in March, and I had TWC before I moved so not sure who do they actually offer this deal to.
On the 2nd note I had my friend call them trying to get a similar deal and they wouldnt do it.
Sometimes in March '05 I'll probably tell them off if they will try to jack up price on me.

Can someone update me on what is known about WCPO's interlace problem and whether they've admitted something is wrong and what and when will something be done about it?

Chazcron..

It appears they don't see what we see.

Has anyone sent them Nitewatchman's irrefutable screencapture WCPO/WKEF screencaptures?
What did they see to that?

i belive nightwatchman sent them, but still no response. the key is for all of us to keep emailing, calling, and snail mailing them

What's the ph # and contact name? I'll call right now...

here is a little piece of info.. I have a source at ICRC and they told me that Time Warner has won the bid for adlephia out in my neck of the woods and they should be out in warren county - hamilton twp in the next year or so.. good news and hopefully will bring some needed competition

jim

I just wanted to give props to Ovation. If anyone in the Cincy area hasn't heard yet. This store just opened last week up in Mason at Deerfield Crossing (I think that is what it is called). I bought the new Samsung 4674 DLP from them. The only one in the city! They gave me a great price on it (matched TVA's) and gave me 10% off a Denon 1910 and 15% of a Monster Power Conditioner. They have very reasonably priced service plans. I can't mention prices but it was cheaper than BB and CC and was 5 yrs not 4.

Sales team was very courteous and went out of the way to make me happy.

Justed wanted to mention them in this forum for those who may not know they exist. We have a lack of higher end dealers in the midwest, so I gratiously welcome them.

For anyone out there looking for the Samsung 4674 DLP that is kind of tough to find right now, they are hoping to have more next week. Call Duke Beam, the store manager, for more info. He is the guy who helped me out.

FYI: They have 12 months Same As Cash this weekend only for anyone needing financing on a purchase. Here is a link to their website:

http://www.ovation-av.com/default.aspx

Anyone wanting particulars about my sale, just PM me. Sorry to be off topic. Just thought some cincy folks might like to know about their presence.

Thanks,
Mike

Originally posted by mchuckp
Just thought some cincy folks might like to know about their presence. Already covered not three pages ago: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4646030#post4646030

Chazcron,

Re: WCPO-DT Jaggies:

I can say that WCPO has the screencaps, they are aware of the issue to at least some extent now, and they are looking into it. I'm 2 emails deep in a conversation with their DOE(director of engineering) about it, presently.

I just sent my latest response+there hasn't been time for a response back, but per his last response, they currently seem to be looking at the issue based on the "evidence" avialable to them, as an issue which seems to be just effecting certian hardware on the user end. I'd think this is probably mostly because it seems not many relevant user comments on the issue, for whatever reason have gotten through to the "right" place. So, they are aware of the issue now, and are looking into it, but I don't think they know yet that it at least seems to be affecting, most, if not all user equipment out there.

I will provide any updates/info I might get here as much as is possible or warranted.

So, as Jim noted -- keep up the attempts to contact them ... Let them know you are seeing the issue, and what hardware(STB, Display) you are using.

I can't pass along any personal contact info, -- But, evidently from what I can tell at least, that the emails to the Greg Ruschman address on wcpodt.com don't/haven't seemed to be "getting through" as used to be the case with them, for quite a while. So, just an idea, but I would suggest perhaps sending your reports by calling them during normal business hours+asking for engineering(leave a voice mail message if necessary), at the "main" number listed for WCPO-TV below, or, via snail mail at the address shown below (just an idea, but you might want address it with a ATTN: Enginnering dept)

WCPO-TV main number:
513-721-9900

WCPO-TV WCPO-DT
1720 Gilbert Avenue
Cincinnati, Ohio 45202

----------


Thanks,

Called, the "engineer" said it was the first he'd heard anyone mention it. Hmmmm.

Maybe I'll keep calling each day for updates.

Wow, it's been too long since I've been on here. I'm going to have to do some reading to catch up.

I can use some help now though. I need the name of a company that knows what they're doing when it comes to checking out my antenna. I'm not getting reception on any of the local HD channels. I've checked this, I've checked that - it's got to be something simple by I don't have a clue.

I live in Ft. Thomas and need a reputable company to come over for a service call. I love watching the stuff but the technical aspects of wiring, antennas, etc. is not one of my "gifts".

Thanks in advance.

Originally posted by chazcron
Called, the "engineer" said it was the first he'd heard anyone mention it. Hmmmm.


My guess is that it was probably the tech on duty at the time that you talked to. As I said before, at this point, unfortunetly, I don't think many "messages" on the subject have gotten through to them, yet.

Nightwatchman, thanks for your persistence on the WCPO jaggies. BTW, I emailed BOTH gruschman@wcpo.com and cc'c bfee@wcpo.com about 2 weeks ago and neither replied, nor were they returned. I think you're right, emails either aren't getting to the right spot or they are ignoring them. I'll call.

I think it would be helpfull if we all posted our setups and then nightwatchman can send them to his contact. In the meantime, all of us should snail mail wpco as mentioned above so they understand that we are not just full of crap!

jim

I'll start..

Hughes HTL-HD OTA/DIRECTV STB
Hitachi 51f510 CRT RPTV 1080i
Connection via HDMI

Here's my setup

Zenith C34W37 Intergrated HDTV receiver/34"16:9 monitor. Purchased last December. OTA


I'm also seeing the problem on Monday Night Football, but I also notice it during the Noon news wirth Tonya O'Rourke. Her hair shows the jaggie problem well on my set. It looks wet like she just got out of the shower
and didn't blow dry it believe it or not. I do not see this on the analog channel.

Good idea guys. To allow enough time for everyone to post, I'll wait until, say, next Tuesday around noon or so before I send the posts to them.

Oh -- Probably a good idea also to indicate in your post that you are seeing-* the WCPO-DT jaggie problem, and if it is via cable, which cable provider in addition to The STB you're using.

* - or if you are NOT seeing the issue, although I would encourage anyone that is NOT seeing the issue to:

#1). Read the previous posts in this thread concerning the issue and

#2) look very closely, especially at the Yardlines during MNF HD football during shots(shots from the camera posistion about 15-30ft or so above field level probably involve the most evident occurances of the problem) from the endzone - Probably Best/easiest way to "notice" the problem is to do a direct comparison with another source of ABC HD, such as WKEF-DT Dayton, although, since the "jaggies" won't be present on FOX HD during NFL HD from WXIX-DT either, although it wouldn't be the best comparision considering it's from a different network, it still might "help" you to see the issue if you haven't "noticed" it yet. Also note that the smaller the display device, the more difficult it is to "notice" the issue.

In any event, if there Truly is equipment out there that is not being effected by the issue, this might also help them detirmine what is going on.

I am seeing the WCPO problem as well. I am on TWC with their Pioneer Voyager STB. I am working on getting OTA setup, just waiting on my OTA STB to arrive from eBay. :)

Same Issue.

Insight Cable
Moto. 6208 (two of them)
Seen on NEC XG 110 Projector and on Sony XBR800 tv... All via Component.

Dave

Ditto on the WCPO jaggies, especially on Monday Night Football, have been seeing them clearly for months. Add to the hardware list my OTA receivers, a Samsung SIRT151 and the OTA section of a DirecTV HD PVR, model HR10-250.

Image is via a Sony HS-10 projector at 720p, connected by component video at the moment.

Thanks for assembling the info to convince WCPO.

Dave

I'm seeing it also on MNF. Receiver is OTA Zenith HDV420 connected via component video cable to Toshiba 50HX81.

Paul

I got jaggies using:

STB= my new Panasonic PT50LC14
Hughes e86 (DirectTV)-component cable- but I watch WCPO HD OTA

Bearcat fans take note: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=471775

Originally posted by DrDon
Bearcat fans take note: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=471775

SWEEEETT!!!.

Thanks

I'm having jaggies exactly as Nitewatchman is describing, especially evident on yardlines from "pressbox shots". Sounds like we're all seeing the same things and I don't recall them having this problem last year. Am I wrong here?

I have TWC, Pioneer Voyager HD box
Samsung HLN 4365W DLP HD ready TV

Sea Ray,

Yep, the problem wasn't there last year(or earlier) on WCPO-DT. Jim first reported seeing the issue back in Late August, at the following post :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4244062#post4244062

Whats a good/decent OTA HDTV decoder to buy?

I checked out eBay.. found this:
http://cgi.*********/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=61396&item=5733291042&rd=1

I know nothing about decoders, 1 of my HDTVs has it built in, the other doesnt, and very soom I'll kick TWC to the curb. :) $$$$$$$$$$$

Thanks

I am also seeing the WCPO problem:
TWC Pace Box
Zenith C27V36 with DVI connector

Dimitriz, that receiver is for OTA and future USDigital subscription. Be sure it works should you opt out of the $20/mo fee. There should be plenty of OTA decoders on eBay for about the same price. I saw these are WalMart this week.

I see the WCPO jaggies using the following OTA:

Toshiba 40H80
Dish 811 HD Receiver

I've seen this also on TWC

Pioneer Voyger 3510HD connected via component video cable
Mits WS-65907 Diamond

What is this?


From WCPO-DT.com

http://www.wcpo-dt.com/equipment.html

WCPO-DT Adds TSID Generator
A little Q&A with WCPO's Director of Engineering (11/09/2004)

Its a unit that inserts data in the analog video signal (Inside Line 21 Field 2) that allows DTV tuners that can tune both analog and DTV signals to correctly associate the EPG data for analog station to the correct analog signal. The DTV signal already has an equivilent data marker in the channel tables.

If you have a tuner that can support both analog and digital. If you enter 9-0 you should be tuned to the analog signal while 9-1 would be on the DTV station.

I'll have to turn PSIP stuff on(the "off air guides" function) on the DTC-100 again soon and check out how things are going in the area, especially given the recent PSIP "section" of 2nd DTV review ....

EPG guide data/info/etc. would be quite useful if all the local stations had STT clocks correct, which has never been the case so far when I've checked it.

Last time I checked a couple months ago, at the time, WLWT-DT+WCVN-DT were the only locals sending useful EPG info OTA(at least that the DTC-100 was seeing), although in the past I have seen WCET-DT+WPTD-DT send program info OTA via EPG as well. Unfortunetly however, with DTC-100, there is no getting around not being able to take analogs out of the channel profiles with the guides function turned on, unless the digital stations aren't sending PSIP channel remapping. (which is still the case with WRGT-DT/WKEF-DT Dayton, but I suspect probably not for too much longer given the new FCC rules on the matter) .....

Anyhow, FWIW, I believe TSID has been working from WCVN 54(shows up as 54-0) analog w/DTC-100 for as long as I can remember.

WCVN-DT+WLWT-DT are still the only Cincinnati/Dayton area stations for which EIA-708 captions are "working" full time with my Zenith HDV420 receiver(which only supports 708, although 608 line 21 captions pass through just fine via composite video out), although I do get EIA-708 captions just fine from WRGT-DT, Fox Dayton, but only via programming coming through the Splicer. Strangely enough, 708 captions do not work with WXIX-DT via the splicer.

William..

Any theories as to the interlace artifacts/strobing on WCPO-DT? I assume you've looked at Jeff's captures: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4595134&fullpage=1

I got this info from WBQC.


From Elliott Block

FYI, today (Nov. 19) our new ch. 38 transmitter is being installed. The new antenna is already up 700' on the tower. There will be a testing period, but out launch and channel change WILL be on or about Jan 1st., period! The delays too many to talk about, two of them were, Harris corp., a local company, developed a new line of transmitters, we will be the beta test site, and the tower, WCPO-TV's, had to be reinforced to accommodate the new antenna and 4" transmission line.
I'll get some pictures on our web site soon, gotta get back to work on the transmitter!

With the anouncement of WBQC UPN 25 moving to 38, and WCPO-DT beginning to broadcast in Dobly Digital 5.1 surround sound. According to the wcpodt website, they will begin to offer MNF, WONDERFUL WORLD OF DISNEY and regular season shows.

I also want to add that I see the jaggies on MNF and on the regular ABC logo in the bottom right hand corner.

OTA
Mitsubishi WS-65869

Time Warner Cable
Sony 50" LCD projection

Originally posted by DrDon
William..

Any theories as to the interlace artifacts/strobing on WCPO-DT? I assume you've looked at Jeff's captures: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4595134&fullpage=1

Also, Here's the link to the first post with attached pics+descriptions. 2 more posts w/descriptions and attached pics immediately follow it :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4595107#post4595107

I am certianly clueless concerning what is causing it. From what I can gather from our converstations so far, Their DOE seems to be thinking along the lines of it being a chipset specific issue, especially as he hasn't noticed the issue yet on his Sony Direct View CRT/HD display. It probably can be a difficult issue to spot(or realize it's not "artifacts" that are present from the production itself) in some cases without a 2nd ABC HD station for comparison, and, from what I can tell from my 26"+38" displays the issue isn't as noticable on smaller displays.

I did notice that around the time the "jaggies" started showing up, was around the first time I saw a different local bug being inserted during HD. Prior to their studio move, it used to be a "WCPO-DT 10 Cincinnati" bug inserted in upper right portion of screen. Since the jaggies have started, it's been a "WCPO 9" bug, inserted approx twice per hour in Bottom Center portion of screen - its pretty much the same as they insert occasionally for ID on their analog station.

Any thoughts/ideas would be appreciated,

Thanks,

Do the jaggies get worse if the bug is in or is it constant? If it gets worse then I would look at the HD logo inserter...

Without knowing how their plant is put together and what equipment they are using it hard to guess. ... not solicititing any work for me but if they want to talk you know where I am...

Thanks William.

The jaggies are constant, just most noticable during certian "edges" during MNF HD football. I haven't personally noticed them during local programming, which is upconverted to 720p.

Don't know about much else, but according to the info on their website they are using a General Instrument HD encoder -- just a guess, but it's probably the same one they've been using since they came on air in 98. Also, I think their analog plant is "mostly digital" so to speak, now, since they moved to their new studio location over the summer. Although it's hard to pinpoint the exact time when the jaggies started appearing, I think it is also very possible the problem started occuring as soon as they moved equipment(or added new equipment) to the new studio location.

Originally posted by DrDon
For a football game, it tends to exhibit the usual NTSC artifacts.

Except its much worse than that, except for the prez's tie that one time, and Breeden's pinstripe suit on Sports of All Sorts on WCPO(analog too) last week(The latter expected artifacts which did show up on the digital).

Some of the "edges" Look almost as bad as CGA computer game graphics, except I doubt you would even see them on a say, 15" monitor.

I don't think we are getting the "rainbow colors" effect, and I don't recall ever seeing jpeg-like "jaggies" around the ABC bug via NTSC, but yeah, otherwise it looks a lot like NTSC composite video artifacts, including/as well as what looks like interlacing artifacts which are generally much worse than what you'd get from NTSC composite video during a football game. Which really wouldn't seem to make any sense .....

Motorola..... that explains it.... I can't say more....

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
I don't recall ever seeing jpeg-like "jaggies" around the ABC bug via NTSC Look at it on a non-HD 50" RPTV <g>. They're there.

Doc,

I can believe it.

OT, but I do even recall seeing some MPEG2-like compression artifacts even on WCPO analog(OTA) during the Miami vs. Bengals Game they carried from ESPN feed. Almost, but not quite as bad as what I saw from SD ESPN via E* at the time(I really shouldn't say "bad" it didn't look bad, really), although the Analog OTA still looked quite a bit better than via the dish overall. I also recall a couple of Fox NFL games last year or year before last with MPEG2 artifacts showing up on the analog+Fox WS (which makes sense, since they were actually the same "feed") ....

That's certinaly not the usual case("digital" looking MPEG2 artifacts) with analog, though. Makes me wonder how FCC will interpet any "complaints" about MPEG2 artifacts as they might apply to their "rule" for DTV that a station must send at least a single Free-to-air SD service (and I *think* they mean via MPEG2) that is at least equal in quality to the "old" analog signal ...On the one hand, you wouldn't think that would be too difficult, since for the most part SD seems to be possible with good quality at as low bitrates as 2.5~3mb/s. But, on the other hand, For instance, I've also seen portions of bandwidth demanding HD material from stations not allocating enough bandwidth to HD that looks WORSE than the SD analog NTSC version, and their SD simulcast on a subchannel certianly didn't look better than that. Especially "active" portions of 2004 superbowl Pregame+Halftime show on WHIO-DT come to mind ... I mean, you could actually tell it was Steven Tyler dancing around on the analog during the pregame show, on the digital station via the HD(and the SD subchannel too), his face just looked like a blur consisting of a bunch of little blocks ....

Bengals/Steelers... Are we in HD today?

Nope. Here's the HD list:
1:00 PM
San Francisco 49ers @ Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Detroit Lions @ Minnesota Vikings
Dallas Cowboys @ Baltimore Ravens
St. Louis Rams @ Buffalo Bills
New York Jets @ Cleveland Browns
Denver Broncos @ New Orleans Saints

4:00 PM
Washington Redskins @ Philadelphia Eagles
Atlanta Falcons @ New York Giants
Miami Dolphins @ Seattle Seahawks

go browns!!! - In HD none the less :)

I want to add one more chapter to the jaggie saga. Has anyone mentioned yesterday's Big game between the Buckeyes and the Michigan? The jaggie problem in this non-HD broadcast was evident. On my HD TV the digital channel showed the usual jaggies that we've been seeing for months now. This further cuts down on the sharpness of the picture which already is struggling due to the lack of HD clarity.

As I switched to my analog 19" tube set fed by a cable wire with no converter box, the jaggieness looked like a black halo around each player on the line of scrimmage while viewing typical "pressbox-like" far away shots.

A few things we can agree on here:

1) This is not just an HD problem. This is seen even on analog feeds.

2) This was not a problem last year. Something has changed from last year to this year. The result of this is a decrease in video quality from 2003 to 2004.

3) This is a local, WCPO problem, not a national one since the folks that get the Dayton ABC affiliate can attest to a jaggie free picture

4) The problem has nothing to do with satellite companies, cable companies or TV sets. We have documented here that the problem is present across the board.

Have we even gotten them to admit that there is a problem yet? How could they not see what we're seeing? Picture quality is their business. It is just our hobby.

Generally speaking, I haven't noticed any problems from the upconverted material on WCPO-DT, or the analog(OTA) picture quality from WCPO 9, including the portions I saw of the OSU game yesterday(on a 38" or 26" 16x9 CRT, I didn't check anything else) from the analog station. In fact, I've allways thought, that for many years the analog PQ on channel 9 has been among the best in the area, and especially the local news/sports shows stuff. The visable compression artifacts during the ESPN Miami at Bengals game being an exception, and I don't know, but I doubt that was a WCPO problem.

Sea Ray's post is the first post I can recall seeing on this board concerning a PQ problem with the analog station, and only one poster so far indicated seeing a "jaggies" issue during upconverted local programming. Now, I've certianly noticed a lot of softness during some ABC sports productions, but that's present on other ABC affiliates as well. You might be surprised at what you see(assuming good reception of both stations) if you compare WKEF 22, ABC Dayton analog PQ with WCPO 9's analog PQ ....

The only problem I've noticed is the "jaggies" problem during ABC HD which we've been discussing(just since their studio move), as well as really high audio levels from the digital station, especially, currently from the Weather Subchannel.

Ok, Follows farther below is the info I have so far concerning who is/isn't seeing the "jaggies" issue during ABC HD(MNF HD football especially) which I'll be fowarding to WCPO On Tuesday. I also included some comments(some, as this should be short+concise) from some reports that clarify the issue beyond what I've discussed with them concerning MNF HD football/ ABC HD.

I went back to earlier posts since the problem was first reported in late august for some of the info, although I didn't get them all prior to our most recent listings. If you don't see your report on the list here, or haven't added it yet, please post your your report with equipment/provider/etc. before Tuesday at 11am, or send me a PM so I can include it :


Reports/Equipment list from folks who Do NOT see/have not noticed the jaggies issue on WCPO-DT during ABC HD :

1. Motorola 6208 box, fed by DVI input into my Hitachi 50V500a. (via Insight Cable N KY)

2. Equipment unknown - (Via TW cable, Loveland, ohio)

----------------------------------------------------------


Reports/Equipment list from folks who DO see/notice the jaggies issue on WCPO-DT during ABC HD:


1. Samsung TXN2668WHF with Zenith HDV420 receiver, RCA F38310 with internal DTC-100 receiver.

2. HITACHI 61UWX10B - Scientific atlanta 3100 HD (Via TW Cable - Lebanon)

3. Hughes HTL-HD OTA/DIRECTV STB
Hitachi 51f510 CRT RPTV 1080i
Connection via HDMI

4. Zenith C34W37 Intergrated HDTV receiver/34"16:9 monitor. Purchased last December. OTA

I'm also seeing the problem on Monday Night Football, but I also notice it during the Noon news wirth Tonya O'Rourke. Her hair shows the jaggie problem well on my set. It looks wet like she just got out of the shower and didn't blow dry it believe it or not. I do not see this on the analog channel.

5. I am seeing the WCPO problem as well. I am on TWC with their Pioneer Voyager STB.

6. Insight Cable
Motorola 6208 (two of them)
Seen on NEC XG 110 Projector and on Sony XBR800 tv... All via Component.

7. Ditto on the WCPO jaggies, especially on Monday Night Football, have been seeing them clearly for months. Add to the hardware list my OTA receivers, a Samsung SIRT151 and the OTA section of a DirecTV HD PVR, model HR10-250.

Image is via a Sony HS-10 projector at 720p, connected by component video at the moment.

8. I'm seeing it also on MNF. Receiver is OTA Zenith HDV420 connected via component video cable to Toshiba 50HX81.

9. STB= my new Panasonic PT50LC14
Hughes e86 (DirectTV)-component cable- but I watch WCPO HD OTA

10. TWC, Pioneer Voyager HD box
Samsung HLN 4365W DLP HD ready TV

Note: Note :This poster also reports seeing problems with "jaggies" on upconverted programming AND WCPO analog 9, the latter via analog cable and a 19" tube set.

11. I am also seeing the WCPO problem:
TWC Pace Box
Zenith C27V36 with DVI connector

12. I see the WCPO jaggies using the following OTA:

Toshiba 40H80
Dish 811 HD Receiver

13. I've seen this also on TWC

Pioneer Voyger 3510HD connected via component video cable
Mits WS-65907 Diamond

14. I see the jaggies on MNF and on the regular ABC logo in the bottom right hand corner :

OTA
Mitsubishi WS-65869

Time Warner Cable
Sony 50" LCD projection

Hi, I'm new to HDTV and I have noticed the jaggies on WCPO-DT during ABC HD (Monday Night Football).

Equipment: Insight Motorola 6208 >> Panasonic PT-AE700U HD LCD front projector
Connections: DVI >> HDMI; component

I also have a question. I am in N. KY, what local HD stations am I missing with Insight HD cable? I noticed that Fox 19 in HD is missing - anything else? Wondering if it makes sense to get an HD STB (I have a rooftop anetenna pointing north).

Hmenke,

Thanks for the WCPO report.

I'm not sure what all insight carries, but In addition to Fox HD from WXIX-DT(Fox 19), I don't think they currently carry WB HD from Cincinnati WB HD affiliate, WSTR-DT(WB 64), which began providing WB HD about a month and a half ago, and DD 5.1 since Nov 1. I don't know what insight has from the 3 Cincinnati area PBS HD/digital(DTV) stations, either, all of which offer PBS HD to some extent, as well as numerous(12) multicast SD services. I had also heard through the grapevine recently that UPN Cincinnati has some plans in the works to go digital, possibly HD in the next year or so. If this turns out to be the case, I don't know what the possibilites are for "quick" carriage from the local Cablecos. I'm not sure if their plan involves WBQC-CA(currently UPN 25), which is moving to channel 38+increasing analog power by first of the year, or WOTH-LP which has a analog construction permit from FCC to move to channel 25+ use WBQC 25's current facilities.

You can find more detailed info about the Cincinnati area stations in the first post of this thread, here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2725916#post2725916

Also, depending upon your location, any terrain issues/antenna setup/etc, you may also be able to receive Dayton, Ohio Area HD/DTV stations. We have one member here in Florence which receives most of them from an antenna in his attic. All 6 "full service" stations in Dayton are on the air providing HD(ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, WB, PBS).

While it may not seem necessary to receive Network HD programming from both Dayton+Cincinnati stations, it is sometimes useful for various reasons. For example, a Cincinnati station may drop from HD in order to insert local graphics(weather bugs/school closings) or run local news/weather reports(or other programming) instead of local programming or HD, and the Dayton station of the same network affiliation may not. Or, a Cincinnati station may air a local sports event in lieu of Network HD programming, while you'll get the network HD from the Dayton station, or vice versa. Or, "techincal difficulties" may mean no HD from a certain station in Cincinnati/Dayton, but HD is there from Dayton or Cincinnati. Or, on occasion, a different HD game may be avaialable from a Dayton station. One example of this occured today, when Fox Dayton Ran the Baltimore vs. dallas HD game at 1pm, WXIX had a movie(because of Bengals game/local market rules/etc). WKEF-DT (ABC Dayton) Doesn't have the current WCPO-DT "jaggies" problem. WDTN-DT, NBC Dayton has DD 5.1 audio. WHIO-DT, CBS HD Dayton "should have" DD 5.1 audio soon. PBS HD Dayton currently provides PBS HD on a nightly basis from 6pm~6am, the Cincinnati stations do PBS HD between 7-11pm at best.

So, if you CAN pull stations from other markets in(If you are far enough South, Lexington area stations, may be a possibility as well.), IMO, it can be quite beneifical at times.

You can also find a abbreviated "list" of Cincinnati/Dayton area stations which provide HD (and an indication of whether the station provides DD 5.1 audio) on the list of HD stations by market here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=422073

Probably more than you wanted to know, but there you go.

Wow, Jeff, thanks for the info - not more than I needed but more than I expected! Sounds like there's a lot of HD action I am missing with Insight when you throw Dayton into the works. Fox HD, WB HD, and maybe soon WB HB - that's a lot of content I'm not getting.

I am pretty far south, about 6 miles east of the I-71/I-75 junction at Walton, KY. My OTA antenna is on the top of the chimney and this is pretty high country, I think around 900 ft above sea level - plus I am on a hilltop not far from a cell tower site chosen for its high elevation. When I was using my OTA anntenna for regular analog about four years ago, I could get Dayton or Lexington depending on which way I pointed it. I don't have a rotator so I ended up pointing north for best Cincinnati reception.

Do you think I am going to have to upgrade my OTA antenna downfeed to get good HD reception or will the traditional 75-ohm coax work OK?

Henry

75 Ohm coax is what you want. RG-6 would probably be a good idea, but if it's currently RG59(which loses a bit more signal than RG-6, especially on higher UHF frequencies), or whatever you have as feedline I'd use it and see how it does first, probably will be fine for Cincy at least as long as the connections are still good on the antenna side..

"Microbob" is in Dry ridge, and could probably tell you more about what you might expect reception wise but follows are a few thoughts.

Dayton or Lexington ... That's a hard one to answer(especially in a "short" fashion <g>), as your location would be quite "fringe area" I'd think, right on the edge, or just outside of predicted coverage areas for the Dayton stations. Curvature of Earth as it relates to Transmitting antenna height+receiving antenna height is the main limiting factor, VHF being a bit more forgiving than UHF. I'd think you would be on the fringe for Lexington as well. Generally speaking, the coverage area for most of the digital+analog stations in the area is about 55~65 miles or so.

However, it sounds like you are in a good spot, and, If you are getting good analog reception from Dayton or Lexington analogs(not too much snow or ghosting -- especially on UHF analogs), for the most part, generally speaking you can probably expect the same from the digital stations. The UHF part is important though, as the signal propagation characteristics are "different" than VHF. Currently, WCPO-DT 10 Cincy, WKYT-DT 13 Lexington(CBS analog 27) and WDKY-DT 4 Lexington(Fox - analog 56) are the only digital stations in area on VHF, the rest of the digital stations in the area currently transmit on UHF, which is generally, usually more difficult to receive "on the fringe" than is the case with VHF.

There are also some other potentially difficult issues for you, currently : some 1st adjacent channel relationships between Dayton/Cincinnati digital stations(example: a strong signal from WXIX-DT 29 Cincinnati+WKRC-DT 31 Cincinnati probably would make it quite difficult or impossible for your reciever to be selective enough to get a good enough signal from WRGT-DT 30, Fox HD Dayton), some potential co-channel interference issues as well as a couple of Dayton/Lexington digital stations whose transmitting antenna patterns don't squirt as much energy towards your location. Also, some digital stations are currently not transmitting at high power levels(which should change in the next couple of years, due to new FCC rules), and although most stations in the area have their transmitting antennas for their digital station up high on their towers, in some cases the differences between the antenna height for the analog+digital I suppose could make a bit of a difference for those on the fringe of things.

I'd say it's worth a shot, to try it and see what you get. I would imagine that getting reception of the Cincinnati area stations should be a breeze, and, personally, given what you said you were getting analog wise(again, 2,3(louisville),5, 7,9 12 analog VHF reception probably won't tell you a lot) I would expect you'll at least see a few digital stations, at least at times, from Dayton, or Lexington/Morehead, possibly even Louisville as well.

Here are a couple of predicted coverage area maps you might want to check out -- Now, just because you may be a bit outside the predicted coverage area does not necessarily mean you won't be able to get good reception of those stations.

WDTN-DT 50 (NBC HD Dayton) coverage map for their current facilities(125KW ERP STA) :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DS622018.html

WBDT-DT (WB HD/DD5.1) Dayton prediected coverage map(47dbu contour) from FCC site for their current full power licensed facilities(35 KW ERP) :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT628342.html

WBDT-DT is likely going to be tough for you, because of a co-channel issue with WLEX 18 analog Lexington, KY, and because of 1st adjacent channel flame thrower WXIX 19 analog.

WKYT-DT 13 Lexington, KY coverage map(36dbu contour) from FCC site, for current full power licensed facilities :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT615908.html

WDKY-DT 4 Lexington, KY predicted coverage map(28dbu contour) for their soon to be completed(hopefully anyway) Full power facilities:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT702393.html

WDKY-DT current facilities predicted coverage map:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DS618151.html

-----------------------------

You can find more of these as well as more info on the stations by going here: http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html , and when inputting your query, choose the "detailed info+CDBS links" option -- You get links to coverage maps included under each station's info.

I receive all of the Cincinnati stations with a Channel Master crossfire model 3679 with rotor and RG6 coax line. All have strong signals in my area however I do have problems when there is tropo conditions in the spring/late summer.


As far as Lexington reception goes I can get the analog channels ok but its hit and miss with ota digital reception since most of them run low power except for PAX WUPX-DT on CH 21 which does come in for me at my location. WDKY will have its new tower up early next year with a full power signal on VHF channel 4 so I should be able to get it here. WLEX the NBC affiliate is not on the air yet but will be later next year.


The Dayton VHF analog channels all put a watchable signal in Grant County but I have trouble with the UHF channels except when conditions are right,mornings and late evenings. I have received WRGT-DT WDTN-DT WPTD-DT and WHIO-DT last spring and Summer during the evening hours only when conditions seem to be most favorable.


I will be raising my antenna later next year so that may improve my reception since I have a tree in the way but I do well with my current antenna location.

I see the jaggies, like everyone else it seems most evident on Monday Night Football:
OTA Tuner: Samsung SIR-T151
HDTV: Mitsubishi WS-55411 connected with component cables.

Thanks for posting those coverage maps, Jeff. I really am just outside the official coverage areas for Dayton and Lexington - almost right in between. I had not realized that many of the digital stations are broadcasting UHF. Makes sense, there's more bandwidth available up there.

microbob, thanks for your post. Sounds like I can expect pretty much what you are experiencing, I'm not too far north of you (Piner).

This digital OTA stuff is pretty interesting. The old NTSC system had been with us for so long without change that this ATSC system seems like TV pioneering days again!

I watched a few minuites of the rookie on saturday I believe.. the one scene I saw had jaggies.. the scene showed some sort of tower (oil well or water) with a pickup in the background.. you could clearly make out the jaggies. jeff, do you want me to take all the responses and put them in a spread sheet for you to send to wcpo?

jim

I have a pricing question for the Insight cable folks. I'm looking at their web site and prices and trying to make a spreadsheet to compare the rates with DirecTV. In order to get Insight Digital with DVR & HDTV, and excluding their optional $7.95 HD Pak, do you HAVE to pay monthly for all three of these levels?

Basic 25 Channels | $13.25 a month |
plus
Classic 45 Channels | $29.30 a month |
plus
Insight Digital with DVR & HDTV | $12.95 a month |
equals a total of $55.50

I understand they are running a deal for digital free for six months, but excuding that, Is the above $55.50 right? Do you pay for Basic AND Classic AND Digital?

"Basic" is kind of a misnomer with Insight. "Lifeline" would be a better term for it. It has the local channels, 2 or 3 "cable" channels and a dozen access channels. Their "basic" plus "classic" equals what most systems used to call basic.

Insight requires the Digital package to get the HD package. As far as Basic or Classic that is one fee. The $12.95 is the upgrade to the HD channels and the DVR.

I can't tell you the exact cost of all tiers because I've got all the movie channels at some discount I locked in years ago. (It would actually cost me more to drop a particular movie channel right now.) My "everything" bill, including the HDNet option, which also gets ESPN HD, is something like $110.

wow.. thats about the same price for the total choice premier with locals on directv.. tv is general is getting way to expensive!

Yeah. I called them thinking I'd drop everything but HBO and Showtime, since I rarely watch the other movie channels now that I've got HD, but it wouldn't really lower my price. I also wanted to drop all those channels like HGTV and Pancreas channel or whatever, but if I do that I lose Sundance and IFC. . .

I've been looking at over the air. Have been considering a Samsung 451. . .new chip model. But it goes out of stock within five minutes of coming in stock.

If I could just get ESPN over the air. . .

Originally posted by jim tressler
I watched a few minuites of the rookie on saturday I believe.. the one scene I saw had jaggies.. the scene showed some sort of tower (oil well or water) with a pickup in the background.. you could clearly make out the jaggies. jeff, do you want me to take all the responses and put them in a spread sheet for you to send to wcpo?

jim

That's funny, because I watched a few minutes of the Rookie as well, and saw the "Jaggies"(more like a strobing, interlace artifact much more pronounced than you'd ever get via analog NTSC) on WCPO-DT on my 26" HD display on the top of a old pickup truck bed in a parking lot -- I was able to switch to WKEF-DT fast enough to see the jaggies weren't there on WKEF-DT ....

I don't think The spreadsheet would be necessary, but you can if you want. I haven't heard back from them since mid-week last week, so of course I can't guarentee it will get "through" this time, and you never know what their "spam settings"/etc. will do with file attachments ...

Count me in on the WCPO jaggies problems.

Equipment:
RCA DTC210 - Directv via DVI input
Samsung HLP5063W

It happens on every show that they show in HD. The ABC logo at the bottom always appears in EGA graphics as someone so beautifully put it.

Has anyone heard where Time Warner is at on rolling out their HD DVR box? I'm getting their service installed in a few weeks and I'm on the waiting list for one. I'm hoping they show up with one!!!! I know they were orginally supposed to be rolled out before the end of the year. Last I was told they were shooting for January.

Anyone have one of these? Is the DVI/HDMI active?

I wish I could see the problem everyone is having with WCPO. Unfortunately I can't receive the OTA from them due to my location/setup. There is something I am noticing though on E*(dish network). I have the locals for Cincinnati and WCPO has by far the worst PQ of all the locals supplied by E*. The channel bugs and the MNF graphics are very near VGA like, the picture is always grainy and there are artifacts that I don't see on other channels. I know there is no comparison to OTA-D and that there is further compression with satellite but this is just bad all over the place.

I've been reading about and experiencing the "jaggies" that everyone is talking about and was about to reply yesterday with my personal experience. Then I watched MNF last night and tried to see if there was something that could explain what was being broadcasted.

What I noticed was that during certain camera shots, the jaggies would appear. Then, as the camera would zoom in to get a closer shot, they would disappear. It seemed that either the camera resolution is too low for the wide, zoomed out shots, or the camera lens is not able to resolve down to the resolution needed to display the detail.

Another theory is that the cameras that they are using may not be true HD, thus not being able to provide the necessary resolution.

Just my TCW.

BTW,

I'm using an LG LST-3100 connected via DVI to a Hitachi 51G500 OTA.

It has nothing to do with the cameras in use. The picture looks just fine on WKEF-DT in Dayton.

the jaggies are there on all of their hd programming - mnf just brings it out the best or worst depending on your point of view.

I will compile the list today and make a spreadsheet and send it to nightwatchman - I will also snail mail a copy to wcpo - I suggest that everyone else also snail mail a their jaggie stories to the address listed above


jim

B]It has nothing to do with the cameras in use. The picture looks just fine on WKEF-DT in Dayton.[/B]

WKEF is NBC. Why would they be broadcasting an ABC presentation of MNF?

WKEF used to be NBC. They are now an ABC affiliate. WDTN is the NBC affiliate.

Curious if anyone knows when the local networks other than Fox (WXIX) will be broadcasting in DD5.1? Fox NFL sounds very good. Very frustating when DD signal that defaults to my receiver (H/K AVR 7000) is DD 2.0. I can send to Dolby Surround, but sounds very inferior. Not to mention it defaults back to 2.0 when a local commercial is played.

Dr. Don?

Doc is quite "busy" this week with other matters, and it might be a while before he can keep up with the forum or post.

In addition to WXIX-DT/FOX , Cincinnati stations WSTR-DT(WB HD), WCET-DT,+WCVN-DT(PBS HD) send DD 5.1 when available. WDTN-DT Dayton has NBC HD+DD 5.1 when available, when they were ABC affiliate prior to 8/31/04, WDTN-DT sent ABC HD/DD 5.1 as well. WBDT-DT WB HD Dayton and WRGT-DT, Fox HD Dayton has DD 5.1 as well.

To summerize earlier reports from this thread or elsewhere, There have been reports of plans in the works for DD 5.1 from WKRC-DT(CBS so far has only had dd 5.1 for live events), WCPO-DT, and WLWT-DT. So, Nothing seems to be "set in stone" at this point , so we'll just have to wait and see. It might be a while. IF WKRC-DT/WLWT-DT personal have asked for the DD 5.1 equipment in the budget recently, just a guess, but, if approved, it could be next fall(or later) before they actually get the equipment.

WCPO-DT did announce some time ago they would be doing DD 5.1 in the "future", Including on their Website where this season's MNF is concerned I expect they must have run into some issues, as it remains DD 2.0, and on their website they also note that at present, they are sending "Stereo surround only".

DD 2.0 with Prologic II decoding for the surround sound seems to work just fine for me here, doesn't seem all that "inferior" to me, but yeah, discrete 5.1 channel sound is better than Matrixed surround. In order to actually get DD 5.1, the program you are watching has to be produced in DD 5.1. Right now, overall, much of what the nets send for their prime time programming is NOT sent DD 5.1.

Thanks for the info Nitewatchman. I'm unable to get the Dayton channels with my OTA Squareshooter directional antenna. I've yet to see/hear any live programs from WCPO in 5.1.

Sound is a big part of the equation for me, hopefully they will all get on the ball.

Agreed, the WCPO PQ is poor on all HD content, a step backward from last year. I can report they are very evident and a distraction on larger displays.

Ok, I sent off our list of equipment/reports of the WCPO-DT "jaggie problem", Including Jim's spreadsheet to WCPO's DOE, and quickly received a response from him.

To everyone who provided their reports and provided their thoughts on the issue, I wanted to pass along WCPO's thanks. Their DOE said it will be beneficial for his research on the issue.

I don't feel it is appropriate to post/discuss private communications here, so I can't say much more. However, I think I can also say that they know about the issue, are researching it, and that their DOE is working on addressing the issue.

To be clear -- that DOES NOT MEAN they will necessarily have it "fixed" soon, there may be "other" difficulties involved besides "engineering issues ...

So, with that in mind, if you haven't already done so, or didn't get a chance to post your report, it might not be a bad idea to continue sending your reports/thoughts/comments on the issue directly to WCPO ....


Thanks again,

here is the letter I sent to them just this week , feel free to plagerize :)

================================================

WCPO / WCPO-DT
C/o Mr. Bill Fee, General Manager
1720 Gilbert Ave.
Cincinnati OH 45202

WCPO / WCPO-DT
C/o Engineering
1720 Gilbert Ave
Cincinnati OH 45202

November 20, 2004

Gentleman,

I would like to take this opportunity to thank WCPO for providing a Digital High Definition broadcast for the ABC network in the Cincinnati area. There are many geographic locations of the United States that are not yet served by digital and or High Definition programming, the effort that you put forth is highly commendable.

I have been viewing HD broadcasts for the past 6 months and am very impressed with the picture difference between analog standard definition and high definition. Since we are fortunate in Cincinnati to have all of our local network affiliates broadcasting in HD, I have been able to compare the quality of the broadcasts and have noticed some unexplainable artifacts in the WCPO broadcasts.

The problems became apparent to me while watching Monday Night Football early in the season. I noticed what I would call jagged lines (jaggies) on the TV screen when a camera would pan slowly across the field. The yard markers would not look smooth and would almost “ring” on the screen. An additional term could be considered “interlacing artifacts”. As mentioned earlier, these are most easily noticed on the yard lines as they are shown in a diagonal, especially when the camera does a slow pan. Also, the onscreen graphics look very blocky - i.e. what should be round, like the ABC logo, actually looks like it is made up of squares. Another example, during the Bengal’s Monday Night game the edges of the tiger in middle of field were "shimmering" very noticeably in many shots, as was anything else with edges given certain angles to the shots.

My first reaction to this was it is either an ABC network problem or a problem with my equipment. (Hitachi 51F510 TV, Hughes HTL-HD Receiver, OTA antenna) I was able to turn my over the air antenna north towards Dayton and receive WKEF, ABC Dayton. The issue was not and still is not present on their broadcasts. Also more recently I have read about others in Cincinnati with the same issue through the Audio and Video Science forum.

In recent weeks, now that I see the issue clearly, I have noticed the “artifacting” issue on some degree in all of the HD broadcasts. Most recently the HD showing of the Rookie, the “jaggie” issue was very clear when straight edges were shown against the backdrop of the corn field.

I hope that this information is helpful to you so you may be able to track down and correct the problem. If I can be of further assistance, please feel free to contact me.

Again, Thank you for the time and effort you put forth in your HD broadcasts.

Sincerely,


Jim Tressler
Hamilton Township, Ohio

gang.. I have a few gmail invites if anyone is interested in one.. just let me know!

jim

Nice letter Jim.

Antenna Install

I did not get a chance to call Advanced Antenna until recently. Unfortunately, their number has been disconnected. Can anyone recommend a different installer ? I'm looking to get HD OTA signals.

Jeff

Jeff,
I used a service with Radio Shack a couple of years ago for my roof top antenna with rotator and later for the other dish for Dish Network in the winter months. I was very pleased with the work they preformed. I had even already purchased all of the equipment on line so it was not even Radio Shack items. If you call the Shack they will give you a 1 800 number, if they are still offering this service.
I tried finding someone local at the time around the area and that was all I could come up with. Good luck and enjoy.

Curt

Upgraditis,

I have an HK receiver as well. And it defaults to DD2.0 for almost all broadcasts. HBO and Showtime and HDNet are about the only channels that routinely broadcast in 5.1.

By the way if anyone else is interested in the Samsung SIR-T451. . .newest over the air HD Receiver, a couple of local Circuit Cities have it in stock. It's going for $249, with a $50 Visa Card rebated. Supposedly has the newer chip, but I can't guarantee that.

Curt

Thanks for the suggestion. Unfortunately RS says they don't do this now. I guess I'll take my chances with the yellow pages now unless someone else has a suggestion soon.

Jeff

goheelz,

Let us know what you find and how it turns out. Most of us here probably DIY, but given that many people are going to want a installer, we do need to find installers in the area which are knowledable and experienced with OTA installs.

This place in Martinsville, IN is the closest place I know of -- It says they assist folks all across U.S., but I don't think they do installs outside of their local areas, which doesn't seem to include Cincinnati area --- who knows though, they may be able to get you in contact with someone around here if you contact them :

http://www.tvantenna.com/about.html

Wow nice database of tv stations linked to that site nitewatchman!
For the world
http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/b/wb9nme/tvdb/tvdb_qth.htm
For Ohio
http://www.w9wi.com/tvdb/states/oh.htm
but what are the 3 columns of numbers before the coordinates?

And I'd like someone who really knows antennas to take a look and give an opinion for those of us who can't put up an outdoor antenna at this.
http://www.dotcast.com/htdocs/ssi/news/press_releases/USDTV-Dotcast-Winegard%20Press%20Release%20I%202-11.pdf
Thanks in adance.

Originally posted by cokebear
For Ohio
http://www.w9wi.com/tvdb/states/oh.htm
but what are the 3 columns of numbers before the coordinates?


It tells you what those are here : http://www.w9wi.com/tvdb/tvdbinst.htm

So :

1st Column: Power in KW ERP(effective radiated power)

2nd Column: HAAT = Transmitting antenna height(in meters) above average terrain. Multiply Meters x 3.28084 = feet

Third column:

a (+) or (-) indicates frequency offset which is used by analog stations. The power from a analog station/NTSC signal is mostly concentrated in "small" portions of the 6MHZ wide RF channel within the Aural, Visual+Color burst carriers. a (N) indicates no offset. A (Z) indicates zero offset.

The RF from Digital stations/ATSC pretty much evenly uses the entire 6MHZ channel.

a (d) indicates directional antenna pattern. (H) Indicates Horizontal polarization of the signal, (E) indicates elliptial polarization, (V) indicates vertical polarization, (C) indicates Circular polarization. I don't think there are any TV stations using solely vertical polarization, but FM stations use it. If you look at FCC CDBS info for FM stations, you'll often see a certian amount of ERP indicated for vertical AND/or Horizontal polarization. If I recall correctly, all the DTV stations in our area use solely H-pol, EXCEPT WXIX-DT which uses Circular Polarization(which involves a certian amount of H-pol and vertically polarized signal).

Vertical polarization is used for receiving antennas which are also vertically polarized, such as the "whip" antenna on a car fender.

Here's a excellent site for more info on the stations. Make sure to select the "Detailed info+CDBS links" option for your query for the most info on the stations, including links below each station "entry" with links to even more great info(Including predicted coverage area maps/etc). IF you input your lat/long coordinates and use the "search by radius" function(you need to also specify a certian distance for the radius search, such as say, 104KM(which is 65 Miles) instead of callsign search/etc, it will give you the azimuth bearing(true not magentic)/distance to the station From your location.

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html

Originally posted by cokebear
And I'd like someone who really knows antennas to take a look and give an opinion for those of us who can't put up an outdoor antenna at this.
http://www.dotcast.com/htdocs/ssi/n...%20I%202-11.pdf
Thanks in adance.


Not much to go on from that to really comment on. It doesn't provide any specs or details concerning the antenna's design. A antenna that consists of a 22" tube/bar that "sits on a windowsil" doesn't sound very promising though ... terk does have a couple of "snake oil" antennas that look like that ... I haven't heard of any new antennas from winegard ( http://www.winegard.com/ ) lately, except for the "SS-1000" Squareshooter.

is wbqc-25 now broadcasting on ch 38? are they digital yet? cant seem to get them on my hughes ird.

Jim..

A cursory check shows 25 and 38 both status quo. "Ambush Makeover" on 25 and shopping on 38. Nothing on digital, but - as Jeff mentioned - they plan on having it done before next fall. How I don't know. But I had a dream (proof that I spend too much time on this stuff) that they struck a deal to lease WKOI-DT during prime time.

Any suggestions from the group how to encourage WKRC 12 to seek widescreen HD broadcast capabilities frpm CBS Sports for our beloved Cincinnati Bengals? Does anyone know if this is part of the deal with the new CBS NFL contract for the near future? As is well known, those of us with DirecTV Sunday Ticket are asked to watch the game from local OTA broadcasters, but they use SD at best for the home Bengals games. Ouch, there's that early adopter pain again.

I have read through the thread, and seen many posts from those in the Greater Cincinnati area. Can anyone comment about urban reception?

I just bought a Sony 36xs955 as my first step in the HD arena, and will continue to use it as my previous analog set. In othe words, 50% DVD/tape and 50% OTA. Cable and/or satelite are not options since I don't need a large daily fix, and have many other things that take up my day. I live just off of Hyde Park Square, in an old, 3-story, wood-frame house, and have always watched the NTSC feeds using only an inside antenna. The quality has never been optimal, but then again, neither was TV. As you might guess, I'm tightly surrounded by other large, old houses, and a plethora of large trees, including an 80' soft maple in my backyard (to the west).

With the upgrade in TV's, I'm tempted to upgrade to an outside antenna, especially if it will help me pick up the NKy and Dayton PBS feeds. WCET seems to be on permanent fundraising/Yanni/New Age self marathon mode anymore.

So, what works for OTA DTV reception in urban Cincinnati?

Thanks,
David Glos

Originally posted by DevoDave
Any suggestions from the group how to encourage WKRC 12 to seek widescreen HD broadcast capabilities frpm CBS Sports for our beloved Cincinnati Bengals? I think the person you need to contact is Marvin Lewis. If the Bengals were 10 and 0 right now, they'd be in HD every week <g>. As long as the network isn't doing a full schedule, only the A games are going to be in HD. Right now, CBS has, at most, only three net-to-affiliate HD "paths." And I'm pretty sure one of those is borrowed from UPN. So a game that's seen in 90% of the country is going to trump a game that's only being carried in 2 or 3 markets.

But, the way I read the deal, the NFL wants 'em ALL in HD asap. In other words, relax. It'll happen. I predict by the '06 season, there won't be ANY SD NFL.

Originally posted by DLGlos
So, what works for OTA DTV reception in urban Cincinnati?


Everything from simple indoor antennas to "monster" Yagis on the roof :)

Really, You couldn't ask for a better spot for OTA HD/DTV than this area, IMO. The biggest problem in our area for the most part involves terrain issues, even in the "urban" Cincinnati area if you are on the "wrong" side of a hill ....

Does that Sony set you have have a internal (integrated) ATSC(DTV) Tuner in it? If so, what are you getting reception wise from The Cincinnati area DTV/HD stations with the indoor antenna you have been using?

Oh, I responded to your post in the "Antenna Thread", but you may have missed it as it ended up as last post on page, and it looks like you posted another response at about the same time. Here's the link to my response there : http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4729948#post4729948

wcpo missed the switch tonight.. they are usually money.. I called at 9:10 ..

edit.. they fliped it at 9:12 .. still jaggie as usuall... but the graphics look especiialy bad.. the rest maybe looks a little better.. but I think thats due to the grass and lack of edge between the yard marker and the grass - where as on turf, the edge is more defined and looks worse.. still not fixed thought..

jim

just flipped to wstr-dt and the sound (DD) was a mess.. nothing but clicking.. anyone else have that problem?

still jaggie as usuall... but the graphics look especiialy bad.. the rest maybe looks a little better..
I would ditto that, with an emphasis on the rest (not graphics) looking a bit better. The yellow ABC circle is awful.

Jim,

Yep, I noticed that audio issue with WSTR-DT, I checked it a couple of times between 8:45 PM(4x3 upconvert) and 9:10pm(HD Everwood), but ended up switching to WB HD Dayton for most of HD Everwood.

Something was going on with WBDT-DT WB HD Dayton as well, there were some weird video glitches just before 9, and they had the SD feed for the first few minutes of Everwood before they switched to HD. I wasn't at the "Right" HT setup to check to see if WBDT was sending DD 5.1, or if they dropped to DD 2.0, but my guess would that perhaps the WSTR-DT audio issue may have been DD 5.1 related and/or network related, although I'm not sure whether or not WB sends a DD 5.1 audio feed for the SD upconverts.

Yes it's the same problem with audio that was occurring on Thanksgiving evening. It seems to be only a problem during HD programming from the network.

Heard that on Thanksgiving from WSTR-DT as well -- They eventually just switched to the SD feed, I think they were running that WB HD original movie which they ran a couple of nights earlier.

I should probably mention, I've occasionally heard that same sound in Theatres before(quite a number of years ago) just before they started a reel, and from one of my older 480p DVD players via digital audio out when it is in DD 5.1 "mode"(Not DTS or DD 2.0) when there's no audio stream being passed(I.e. while you are FF/pausing/etc). On the latter, I figured it was some sort of bug+the thing wasn't muting something it should have been. It was very annoying BTW.

Just a little more info about that new antenna if anyone is interested.
http://www.winegard.com/other/presspdf/Winegard%20Dotcast%20Joint%20Venture%20Press%20Release.pdf

Just flipped to WSTR they are broadcasting an upconverted Seinfeld in DD5.1 haven't noticed any sound problems.

Originally posted by Nitewatchman

Does that Sony set you have have a internal (integrated) ATSC(DTV) Tuner in it? If so, what are you getting reception wise from The Cincinnati area DTV/HD stations with the indoor antenna you have been using?

Nitewatchman,

First, a great big thank you for your extensive response over on the antenna thread. In past lives, I have posted such tomes on various photography and old house issues; simply because those are some of the subjects to which I'm more familiar. It was always nice to get some acknowledgement, no matter how small, that what was typed simply didn't disappear into the great 'blackhole' that is the net. Rest assured, your reply was well received.

The picture you paint seems a bit different that what I saw painted on the antennaweb.org site. I see WCVN @ 8.4 miles and 210 deg, while most of the Cincinnati stations are less than 10 miles and around 250-260 deg. WSTR is showing at 6 miles and 318 deg., although, I don't watch Star64 often. Most of the Dayton/Springfield stations are showing around 40 miles at 18-19 deg., although, previous to your post, I hadn't really considered them as 'receivable.' Perhaps I will have to reconsider. Looks like a rotator and either the 8-bay bowtie or better Yagi will make for the most fun. By chance, from those two choices, what would you suggest? The Yagi looks like it might be a little more directional, which might not be such a bad idea with the plethora of signals that we have available. On the other hand, the 8-bay bowtie might be a bit less "finicky" in pointing.

As to the Sony, it hasn't been delivered yet; but it does have an integrated tuner. It seemed to do reasonably well, tuning off of the stores outside antenna, split eight ways to Sunday.

As an aside, my wife wanted a new TV even more than me. We have been looking at HD casually for around a year, but nothing reached out and grabbed me; that is until last Saturday. I knew of the 36xs955 (a 4:3 set, with tuner) for a couple of months, but wasn't willing to jump at the list price I had seen the set for online. On a whim, I stopped by a local Montgomery dealer, and was impressed by what I saw. They also had it for a very, very competive price. Then, I asked the salesman if there might be other sets in that range that merit a look. Thinking I needed a better price, he offered an additional $75 off. SOLD. The only downside is the wife wanted the carpet cleaned in the living room before it arrives. Fair enough, as once it is set, I'm not likely to move it's 230lb weight often.

I will let you know how it all plays out over the next week or two.

Thanks,
David Glos

The audio problems tonight and last thursday were with the WB Network HD feed and not with the local programming.

Originally posted by cokebear
Just a little more info about that new antenna if anyone is interested.
http://www.winegard.com/other/presspdf/Winegard%20Dotcast%20Joint%20Venture%20Press%20Release.pdf

I had to laugh so hard at some of that, I think think beer actually started running out of my ears when I read the following quote from the press release:

: Begin quote

"The new antenna systems are based on Dotcast’s proprietary digital architecture, which enables reception that is as much as 225 times more powerful than traditional rabbit ears, yet fits in a sleek design smaller than one-third the size of a typical indoor TV antenna."

: end quote

Sigh ... Is it any wonder people seem to sometimes be "confused" about OTA reception? Granted, whatever works for you is the important thing but ...

Anyhow, In addition to the "smart antenna" interface I mentioned earlier, there was an interesting report in reputable journals last spring concerning a "breakthough" that was made by a fellow who claimed to have designed a small antenna that could perform as well as a larger antenna -- His work involved HF antennas, but the report indicated that his "designs" would work for VHF/UHF as well ... I'm skeptical until it's actually proven as it would seem to defy the laws of physics, and I'm not sure, but I don't think there have been any "product announcements" based on his designs yet.

Anyhow, For some good info on some actually Effective (and not-so effective) and proven antenna designs, see here:

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennatypes/antennatypes.html

Or, check out a copy of the "ARRL Antenna Book".

For some good info on how a LNA(low noise amplifer-i.e. "preamp") can improve reception(it can of course impair reception if it is being overloaded by strong signals+creating intermod/etc) see here:

http://www.geocities.com/toddemslie/UHF-TV-DX.html

Originally posted by DLGlos
I have posted such tomes on various photography


If you've ever worked with "hi-rez" digital images scanned from film negatives, I think you'll see some "similarities" and definitely appreciate HD PQ, especially when you get your set home and adjust the various settings, which are usually set to "torch mode" values for the showrooms If you're like me, especially when it involves well done Film to HD transfers ... Not to say I don't enjoy HD Video as well ...

Originally posted by DLGlos
The picture you paint seems a bit different that what I saw painted on the antennaweb.org site.


Hmm ... Unless It was the Stout talking, I Think I pretty much got close to the same thing you did(see my 2nd response in other thread detailing the bearing/distances on stations within range for you), except of course the incorrect info on antennaweb concerning WPTO-DT's transmitter site(which is actually currently on WXIX tower, not in Oxford like the analog).

Originally posted by DLGlos
Most of the Dayton/Springfield stations are showing around 40 miles at 18-19 deg., although, previous to your post, I hadn't really considered them as 'receivable.' Perhaps I will have to reconsider.


Dayton stations, with the exception of a couple of low power analogs(likely out of range for you) are all on the same "antenna farm", which is just SW of Downtown Dayton. The "Springfield" designation for a couple of stations just denotes the assigned "community of license" for that station, for which must be within the "strong signal" area of a station's coverage area. In a post not too far back on this thread, I covered some of the reasons why it can be benefical to receive stations of the same network affiliation from different markets.

Curvature of the Earth as it relates to transmitting antenna height is the main limiting factor on "receivable" distance under "normal" signal propagation conditions on VHF/UHF frequencies. Generally speaking, in our area, the coverage areas for most of the stations(most of which are running high power levels, from nice high antenna heights) in the area is about 55~65 miles.

Originally posted by DLGlos
Looks like a rotator and either the 8-bay bowtie or better Yagi will make for the most fun. By chance, from those two choices, what would you suggest? The Yagi looks like it might be a little more directional, which might not be such a bad idea with the plethora of signals that we have available. On the other hand, the 8-bay bowtie might be a bit less "finicky" in pointing.


Yes, sounds like you're on the right track. A 8 Bay Bowtie is actually quite directional(it is effectively 8 "seperate" antennas "stacked together" in an array for increased directivity+gain), and will also more evenly have the same amount of signal gain across the entire band than would be the case with a Yagi/corner reflector design.

It's hard to say in any given circumstance whether a Yagi/corner reflector design such as a CM4248 would work "better" than the CM4228 or DB8 8-bay Bowtie. I've heard a number of folks say that if you have terrain issues/lots of trees/etc, a Yagi can be better, but if you are in a relatively flat spot, or on a "hill" the 8-bay bowtie can be better. I think the Bowtie will probably do better for you for PBS Dayton on UHF 58. There are some European yagi/Corner Reflector UHF antennas which reportedly offer better performance Gain+directivity wise than either CM4228 or CM4248.

Personally, I'd probably try the CM4228, or even a CM4221 first, but I wouldn't necessarily overlook a VHF/UHF combo, or seperate VHF+UHF antennas(of course, you allways can add a VHF antenna to your UHF only antenna setup later if necessary or desired), either. Currently, being OTA only, you're probably going to also still be using the analogs quite a bit, and once analog shut off occurs, more digital stations in the area will move to VHF. Really, a Medium sized VHF/UHF combo would probably work quite well for you as a "one size fits all" solution", although, again on the other hand the bit of extra gain on Hi-UHF you would get from say, a CM4228 might be necessary for some of the Dayton DTV stations. You're close enough to the Cincinnati stations that a paperclip, or short piece of wire hooked to the antenna input on your set might do the trick, I'm really not exaggerating too much about that ....

What I'd probably be most concerned about is your proximity to the Cincinnati stations+ any potential Multipath difficulties. As an example, I've seen a site just a few miles away from Cincinnati towers(pretty much "on top" of Price Hill specifically), with actually, "eyeball" line of the sight to most of the towers, and with exception of WCVN 54+WBQC 25 had horrible multipath problems(analog ghosting to the point of being unwatchable, this was before digital TV) for no apparent reason with the use of outdoor directional antenna(RS VU90 I believe - a small VHF/UHF combo). The solution was to aim the antenna towards Dayton, which provided about perfect, ghost/snow free reception ...

Also, Although unlikely, I would think it's also somewhat possible, given your proximity to WKRC/WCPO that even the front-end of receiver(w/o preamp) could be overloaded with "too strong" of a signal from some of the nearby stations given the use of a hi-gain, outdoor antenna. You can easily "fix" this problem with extra atteunation in the feedline(splitters or atteunators -- RS has an inexpensive adjustable atteunator). The "threshold" for perfect DTV reception is about 16db of signal over noise. From the Cincinnati stations, for the most part you're going to be getting "city grade" level signals, potentaially as much as 100db or more of Signal over noise, even with a "reference dipole" antenna(rabbit ears tuned to the frequency a station is operating on) without ANY gain. "Noise" is everything present except the "desireable" portions of the 8VSB ATSC signal -- Multipath which the receiver can't correct for is seen as "noise" as well.

Originally posted by DLGlos
As to the Sony, it hasn't been delivered yet; but it does have an integrated tuner. It seemed to do reasonably well, tuning off of the stores outside antenna, split eight ways to Sunday.


WOW! A Store that actually had an outdoor antenna hooked up ... I'm stunned beyond belief ... I don't think I've seen that since the 70's or early 80's, even though the one at my local Sears is actually still there on the roof ....

Originally posted by DLGlos
I will let you know how it all plays out over the next week or two.


Yes, let us know how it goes. We'll be glad to help out if we can.

And BTW, Welcome to AVSforum+The Cincy thread!

Originally posted by DevoDave
Any suggestions from the group how to encourage WKRC 12 to seek widescreen HD broadcast capabilities frpm CBS Sports for our beloved Cincinnati Bengals? Does anyone know if this is part of the deal with the new CBS NFL contract for the near future? As is well known, those of us with DirecTV Sunday Ticket are asked to watch the game from local OTA broadcasters, but they use SD at best for the home Bengals games. Ouch, there's that early adopter pain again.
As mentioned, the issue is high-profile games, and the Bengals don't participate in those :rolleyes:

However, I see that week 14 may be HD.

Here is the list from:
http://www.sportsline.com/cbssports/news/101404nflassignments

They note it is tentative. The '*' is for Hi-Def.

GAME PLAY-BY-PLAY/ANALYST PRODUCER/DIRECTOR
1:00 PM, ET starts:
·Cincinnati @ New England* Dick Enberg/Dan Dierdorf/Armen Keteyian Mark Wolff/Bob Fishman
·Cleveland @ Buffalo Don Criqui/Steve Tasker Ross Schneiderman/Cathy Barreto
·Oakland @ Atlanta Kevin Harlan/Randy Cross Bob Mansbach/Suzanne Smith
·Indianapolis @ Houston Gus Johnson/Brent Jones Jim Rikhoff/Mark Grant
·Buffalo @ Miami Don Criqui/Steve Tasker Ross Schneiderman/Cathy Barreto
4:00 PM, ET starts:
·N.Y. Jets @ Pittsburgh* Jim Nantz/Phil Simms/Bonnie Bernstein Lance Barrow/Mike Arnold
·Miami @ Denver Ian Eagle/Solomon Wilcots Victor Frank/Larry Cavolina

Have to love Buffalo. They're able to play at home against Cleveland and then get to Miami by 4PM to play the Dolphins!!!! The Dolphins are cool, too, playing Buffalo and Denver at the same time!!!

Dick Enberg. . .that would have to be one of the prime games. Suspect it's because New England will be playing for something. Of course, if we're really good and win at Baltimore. . .never can tell.

Originally posted by hroeder
Have to love Buffalo. They're able to play at home against Cleveland and then get to Miami by 4PM to play the Dolphins!!!! The Dolphins are cool, too, playing Buffalo and Denver at the same time!!!

Dick Enberg. . .that would have to be one of the prime games. Suspect it's because New England will be playing for something. Of course, if we're really good and win at Baltimore. . .never can tell.

LOL, I didn't notice that. I guess they DID say it was subject to change... You didn't think it would be tought for Criqui and Tasker to call 2 games at once? The Buf @ Mia is this week, so it must be cut/paste issue on their web site.

It's tough for Criqui and Tasker to get one game right, let alone two. ;)

I'm just thankful they're not doing the Bengals game. UGH. Tasker isn't bad, but Criqui has to be the worst. Well, no...Steve Stewart is the worst, then Criqui.

The following was posted on the WBQC web site last night by Elliot (Block).

WBQC-UPN38 will begin our analog on Jan. 1st.
The FCC will issue us a "second channel." It is set to become law next month. Over 7 hour (half of UPN's primetime) is in HD. With our changing channels, 25 to 38, and 38 to 25, adding our digital channels (HD) will take place this summer. I'll keep you posted.

Okay my OTA friends. Here is my dilemma, maybe you can help. I am upset at Time Warner cable because of their lack of FOX 19 and WB 64. So I eBayed an OTA receiver and picked up an Antenna from Radio Shack. It is a powered set top antenna with powered rotation. I live near 275 & Hamilton Ave. My condo is on the first floor, so it is partially underground. I am able to get channel 9 WCPO with out a problem. I can not pickup anything else what so ever, not even a slight weak signal. I have moved the antenna near a window and checked AntennaWeb.org. Does anyone have thoughts or things I should try? My friend about 1 mile up the street has the same setup in his basement where there are no windows at all. He gets everything perfectly. Thoughts?

ClarkeR,

Interesting info from Elliot Block/WBQC. I thought it might have been a good sign a couple years back when I had contacted him that he seemed quite interested in HD/DTV/etc. It is encoraging to find out they seem to have plans to seek a 2nd companion channel for digital during the transisition, I expect many LP stations will have to flash-cut to digital on their current analog channels. The way I had read the recent new LP digital rules, I thought they would be able to "seek" a 2nd digital channel if they wanted(if there is one available in the area) and it looks like they are going to do so.

The recent LP digital Report and order can be found here in Word Doc format :

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-04-220A1.doc

And here in PDF format :

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-04-220A1.pdf

Update: Specifically, See the section in paragraph 136-148 at above link concerning Digital companion channels for Class A+LP stations. It looks like the filing window for incumbant Class A/LP broadcasters to seek secondary channels for DTV should probably begin "soon", perhaps as soon as sometime in December. I'll keep an eye out to see when FCC sends out a public notice to open up the filing window(first, it says they are going to announce a freeze on certian LP analog application filings), and to see what WBQC/WOTH and other LP stations in the area send them.

Meanwhile, I'll try to figure out/guess WHAT channels may be available that they might be looking at ... which is going to be difficult "guessing", given the uncertianly involving the currently ongoing DTV channel election prodedure for Full Service stations ... They're can't be many below Ch 51 in this area, and we don't exactly know yet what is going to end up where after the transisiton, and you wouldn't think they would want #1) anything about 51 since they would know they would have to move again later... or #2) An allocation which might cause another displacement for them later on ... WOTH has already had to move twice(from 35 because of WLWT-DT, and from 39 because of WKOI-DT) because of DTV full service stations.

-------------------------------

Zekyl,

First off, make sure you have the STB set for "Off air" reception instead of cable. If That's the problem, that would explain why you are only seeing WCPO-DT, which transmits on VHF channel 10 (You see it as 9-1, 9-2 because they send info to "remap" the channel so it appears "next" to their analog station), all the other Cincinnati digital stations are on UHF. VHF channels 2-13 use the same frequency as cable, UHF OTA channels 14-69 are different frequencies than cable.

If it is something else - Just a thought-- what Model # is the antenna, and what sort of Analog reception are you getting, especially analog UHF stations? You should be able to hook it up directly to a analog set+use the internal NTSC analog tuner to check Cincinnati analogs 5,9,12,19,25,38,48,54,61,64.

Jeff,
Thanks for the thoughts. I will check those out and update you all later tonight.

There's a message here from MrDTV (A sinclair "tech guy" who posts here) who passed along some info from WB concerning DD 5.1 audio problems WB have been having recently, which I'd think probably explains the issues we were getting from WSTR-DT Monday+last Thursday night :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4741937#post4741937

So, they obviously know about the problem+are working on it, in the time being WB will be sending 2 channel audio.

Jeff,
Okay I fixed my problem. It seems I was reading the channel numbers wrong. When I flipped to 10 it switched to 9.1, so I guess I assumed going to 12.1 would be 12, etc. Not the case of course. However, when I go to 33, it grabs the signal and then displays 64.1 on the screen. How nice, I get them all now. Take care.

Zekyl,

Good deal. Sounds like you've got it figured out.

You should also be able to implement some sort of "auto channel scan" on the Receiver, and afterwards tune/surf though the PSIP remapped channels(5.1, 9.x, 12.1, 14.x, 19.x, 48.x, 54.x, 64.x) as well. And/or select the channels(probably the actual channels depending upon your receiver model - actual RF channels are shown in first post of this thread) manually for inclusion in your channel surf list(probably as PSIP remapped channel numbers) via some sort of channel "setup" menu option.

----

On another note, Notice anything a little Odd from the audio during Smallville HD from WSTR-DT ;)

That's an "interesting" "Stereo" Isn't it? If only the actors were all confined to the right hand side of screen ;)

Update : Interesting but perhaps approrpriate -- All the dialogue is now coming out of LEFT channel from WSTR-DT during HD "Jack+Bobby" ....

We got that for several days after they first started doing WB HD as well, but at least the clicking is gone ...

At least William's got the sound right on "Great Performances." WCET-DT is missing the center channel/dialogue track.

While I'm at it, I believe someone asked about DD 5.1. Sources tell me it's been approved for next year's cap-ex budgets for WLWT-DT and WKRC-DT. No word on WCPO-DT. Budgets change, as we all know. March and Summer are the best opportunities to work on stuff like this if you're looking for a best-guess ETA. 'KRC maybe the latter as Viacom is trying to work a group-buy with Harris. Fingers crossed.

Yep, HD Clapton show sounds good from WCVN-DT/KET4 ....

Yea, I noticed the audio problem in Smallville and Jack & Bobby. The funny thing was the commercials audio was fine, I guess they come out a different signal since they are not HD.

Originally posted by DrDon
At least William's got the sound right on "Great Performances." WCET-DT is missing the center channel/dialogue track.

I also noticed a audio/video sync problem on 48-1 DT PBS-HD. The 1080i picture was excellent though.

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
Yep, HD Clapton show sounds good from WCVN-DT/KET4 ....

Did you guys notice any audio dropouts around 9:38ish and again during the ZZ-Top segment?

From Directv - this weekends HD games

Go Browns!! and thanks for canning Butch!!!

12/5/2004

TIME (ET) TEAMS HD CHANNEL
1:00 PM Atlanta Falcons @ Tampa Bay Buccaneers 90
Carolina Panthers @ New Orleans Saints 91
Minnesota Vikings @ Chicago Bears 92
San Francisco 49ers @ St. Louis Rams 93
Houston Texans @ New York Jets 94
New England Patriots @ Cleveland Browns 95

4:00 PM Green Bay Packers @ Philadelphia Eagles 96
New York Giants @ Washington Redskins 97
Denver Broncos @ San Diego Chargers 98

Re: WCET-DT 34-1 (48-1), I recently did an auto-channel rescan on my Hughes e86 and 34-1 still won't remap to 48-1. 48-2 to 48-5 remap just fine, though. Are others still having problems with that? Just curious.

itzme,

my hughes htl-hd was working fine last night.. 48-1 to 48-5 all were there.

jim

HDC,

I didn't notice any audio problems from KET4 last night, but I was in+out so might have missed it. I did catch all but the first few seconds of "Tush" from the ZZtop set and it was fine.

RE WCET-DT:

48.1 and everything else has been fine on the channel remapping whenever I've checked it recently. This is the way it works here:

When they are "properly" in "HD mode"(7pm-11pm nightly) the following is ALL that is present, in parenetheses is what's there on DTC-100 with PSIP(off air guides function) turned off :

48.1 (34.1)
48.2 (34.2)
48.3 (34.3)

When they are in "SD mode"(the rest of the time, they are off air completely between 11pm and ~8 or 9am nightly) The following is all that is present:

48.2 (34.2)
48.3 (34.3)
48.4 (34.4)
48.5 (34.5)

If your receiver is using/integrating EPG from Satellite, I suppose 48.1 and 48.4+48.5 could be there all the time. The above is based on what the station sends OTA. 48.1 "pops up" and 48.4+48.5 "disappear" nightly between 7pm~11pm, 48.1 "disappears" and 48.4+48.5 "pop up" at other times. They don't send "placeholders" for the times when the services are "blank" like WCVN-DT/KET does on 54.3, 54.5 and 54.6, or "blank subchannels" like WPTO-DT/WPTD-DT does.

Know most of you are OTA, but Insight has changed Discovery HD to Universal HD. This is a national changeover. Looks like another good move. Gives a HDNet type of channel, with HD series, and uncut films. Discovery HD always had good picture and sound, so hopefully this will continue. Discovery HD was awfully repetitive.

Originally posted by HDTVChallenged
Did you guys notice any audio dropouts around 9:38ish and again during the ZZ-Top segment?


Yes I noticed a few dropouts in audio around that time. It only happened during the ZZ Top segment. The rest of the program was fine.

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
HDC,

I didn't notice any audio problems from KET4 last night, but I was in+out so might have missed it. I did catch all but the first few seconds of "Tush" from the ZZtop set and it was fine.

Rats ... I'm wondering if there's something in the stream that my E86 doesn't like ...

Originally posted by microbob
Yes I noticed a few dropouts in audio around that time. It only happened during the ZZ Top segment. The rest of the program was fine.

Oookay ... maybe it's not just me ...

hroeder:
Are you sure that they replaced Discovery with UHD? Directv switched BravoHD to UHD. It looks like it is pretty much a name change. NBC owns both of them and it looks like they are playing all previous HD content from NBC.

You may be right. But the programing looks different. Uncut movies with no commercials? Of course this morning it was back to replaying US Open Tennis. . .so maybe it was Bravo. . .

DiscoveryHD is still there...

BravoHD has been renamed UniversalHD. Part of the change is improved programming. But it's still NBC's HD offering.

I was flipping between CET and KET last night and noticed that KET had 5.1 working, while CET only had stereo. This leads me to believe that CET forgot to change the audio to 5.1. Does anyone know someone at CET so we can let them know. Wouldn't it be easier for them to just leave it on 5.1 all the time instead of switching like they have done in the past? I wasn't able to check Think 16 because I no longer am able to get them(Looks like I need to check the attic).I also wanted to know if anyone has heard from WCPO about the "jaggies" on their logos on the HD material they broadcast? Did they find what is causing it yet? I wish we could get the station engineers on this thread so they could fix the stuff we're always talking about. I also noticed less sound drop-outs on Smallville last night, but I watched the beginning via analog and it even had a couple drop-outs.

Jeff,
On my Hughes e86 my 48.4 and 48.5 are always present, even when 'blank'. Based on what you wrote, I manually punched in 34.1 after 7pm last nite, thinking that it should remap to 48.1. It doesnt. If I punch in 48.1 I get "channel unavailible". So my channel scheme is still 34.1, 48.2-48.5 all the time (no 48.1). I thought that manually punching it in would be the same as an autoscan, but I guess not. When I have the time, I'll run autscan channels after 7pm some nite. Maybe that'll do it.

Jeff,
On my Hughes e86 my 48.4 and 48.5 are always present, even when 'blank'. Based on what you wrote, I manually punched in 34.1 after 7pm last nite, thinking that it should remap to 48.1. It doesnt. If I punch in 48.1 I get "channel unavailible". So my channel scheme is still 34.1, 48.2-48.5 all the time (no 48.1). I thought that manually punching it in would be the same as an autoscan, but I guess not. When I have the time, I'll run autscan channels after 7pm some nite. Maybe that'll do it.

I'm getting TWC hooked up in a little over a week. I will be new to HD. I've been reading previous posts about UniversalHD. I went to the website and it looks like a really good channel.

Has anyone gotten any info on if TWC plans on picking this up soon? I didn't see it in their channel listings as Universal or BravoHD.

Thanks,
Mike

Speaking of TW Cincinnati...

Has anyone heard anything new about the availability of the HD-DVR?

I know they have been testing it for 2 or 3 months already... Would have thought they may have started to roll them out by now.

Originally posted by smackman
Speaking of TW Cincinnati...

Has anyone heard anything new about the availability of the HD-DVR?

I know they have been testing it for 2 or 3 months already... Would have thought they may have started to roll them out by now.

You have to call them weekly to keep track on that. Their waiting lists are worthless since I was on the list when initial HD rollout happend and they never called me to let me know that it was out for like 2 month.

Originally posted by smackman
Speaking of TW Cincinnati...

Has anyone heard anything new about the availability of the HD-DVR?

I know they have been testing it for 2 or 3 months already... Would have thought they may have started to roll them out by now.

I'm getting TWC installed on the 14th. I signed up for their HD DVR waiting list about a month ago. I just talked to a rep today. They are still in beta testing for the units and have some bugs in them. She claims they are still planning on rolling out a new unit in January to the masses. She seemed fairly confident that I could get a beta unit hooked up on the 14th then when January rolls around, I could switch it out for the new units.

I'm not sure if the new unit is the same units with bugs fixed or a new unit. I do know they use the SA8000HD DVR. So not sure if the newer unit will be the same one or the new SA8300HD DVR. I do know the current one has a DVI hookup that is not active. Haven't gotten any info if the new one will be active. If it is the 8300, it has an HDMI on it.

Of course, you have to take what reps tell you with a grain of salt. My guess is that the installer will have more info then the service rep. I will grill him/her and post if I learn anything new.

Originally posted by smackman
Speaking of TW Cincinnati...

Has anyone heard anything new about the availability of the HD-DVR?

I know they have been testing it for 2 or 3 months already... Would have thought they may have started to roll them out by now.

Hey Smackman,

Did you ever get your WLW issues worked out? I also live behind the WLW tower and had been comtemplating the purchase of an HD tuner just to get Fox HD.

Speaking of DVRs. Have you seen how the major networks are screwing with the times, i.e. time shifting programs so DVRs and Tivos don't record the programs correctly. I think that stinks!

Originally posted by zekyl
Speaking of DVRs. Have you seen how the major networks are screwing with the times, i.e. time shifting programs so DVRs and Tivos don't record the programs correctly. I think that stinks!


I noticed this on my Replay, I set it to record Without a Trace but when I watch it and 50% of time I see 20/20.
Could be me, I havent really cross checked with live TV.

When I got the Motorola 6208 I gave my RePlay away. Actually the schedules I see from Insight seem closer to reality than RePlay's schedule used to be. And since I'm recording HD, so much the better.

Has anone getting WCPO 9 ota having troubles with reception? Usually at night I get a signal on my meter but nothing on screen. I'm using a UHF only antenna and that probably doesn't help me but at other times WCPO 9 comes in great. Its frustrating especially since both my antenna feeds are going into my DTV reciever which doesn't do analog at all so Its digital or nothing.

Thanks,

BTW i'm in SE butler co and getting all the dayton stations perfect with a UHF only in the attic pointed at about 15 deg . The cincy antenna is at about 180 deg or so.

WCPO-DT was off the air this morning until about 2PM so they could be having transmitter problems. I'm not having trouble receiving them though.

Those of you with Satelittes. . .have you been having problems with HBO and Showtime? Recorded a movie on Showtime over the weekend and it was just unwatchable due to excessive pixellation. Lots of similar problems with HBO and UHD. . .wondering if there are sunspots or it's an Insight Cable problem?

mbarcus -

I never really go anything going with the OTA from behind the tower....

I put on a couple of filters that helped a little, maybe an extra bar or two of signal strength, but still cannot get any of the Cincinnati stations with any consistency.

I am able to get FOX from Dayton without too many problems, though.

I sit right behind the tower, literally... If you're back from the tower a little bit, like up on Running Fox or Wheatmore, Birchwood Farms, you may have better luck than I'm having.

Originally posted by hroeder
Those of you with Satelittes. . .have you been having problems with HBO and Showtime? Not even a blip. Sounds like you may be having either a weak signal issue or all this rain has gotten into the lines. I know my VHF Lo channels on Insight look like hooey. And, for about a week, my cable modem was constantly going offline. But I don't have digital cable.. that stuff I get from D*, so I can't check for you.

Originally posted by hroeder
Those of you with Satelittes. . .have you been having problems with HBO and Showtime?

Other than some analogish looking sparklies on Sho-HD, no major problems from D* recently

The following was posted by Elliot on the WBQC web site on Dec 6, 2004.

"The FCC has the ruling for us to apply for a digital channel. It will become the law in Jan. 2005. We are working on the engineering for the new channel. The max. ERP will be 15Kw. With that power we will have better coverage than we will have with our new analogue transmitter at 140Kw.

UPN has seven hours of HD programming a week. To be realistic and knowing how long it takes to get things granted, I'm look for it happen this summer. "


Clarke

great news.. another digital channel!!

now if the rest (5,9,12) would get dolby digital and 9 would take care of the jaggies.. life would be better than it is..

also.. did any one watch las vegas last night? wlwt-tv broke up a bunch of times in the beginnning and middle of the show.. any one else notice that?

jim

Saw the same thing via cable, Jim. It seemed like some auto switch was working incorrectly.

Originally posted by jim tressler
also.. did any one watch las vegas last night? wlwt-tv broke up a bunch of times in the beginnning and middle of the show.. any one else notice that?

I think this was an NBC problem. I had the same breakups from WAVE-DT on the HD feed while their SD subchannel was ok.

Who-Dey in HD this week!

http://www.dbsforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=331556#post331556

Go Browns!

CBS
1pm ET/10am PT
Cincinnati at New England--Dick Enberg, Dan Dierdorf, Armen Keteyian (HD)
Cleveland at Buffalo--Don Criqui, Steve Tasker
Indianapolis at Houston--Gus Johnson, Brent Jones
Oakland at Atlanta--Kevin Harlan, Randy Cross (HD)

with the infamous bearcat bounce in effect tonight on wxix.. will the bounced shows still be in hd?

jim

Nope

Posted this in the main HD Hardware section...but I thought I might get a response here as well..

I just discovered an odd problem I am having on certain channels of my Samsung TS-360 High definition receiver. Whever my x-10 controlled lights are ramping up or ramping down, certain channels of my satellite experience severe breakup....every once in a while i even get "searching for satellite". It goes away once the light are completely on or off. This leads me to believe that the x-10 switch is interfering with the satellite and certain channels (transponders?). The receiver is plugged into a different circuit as the x-10 switches. I do have a powered 4X8 multiswitch, but it is on a diffrent circuit as well. An antenna combinded with the sat signal and diplexed at the receiver. I tried running a long extension cord to the receiver and pluggin it into an outlet far away from the basement, but that didnt't take care of the problem. Is there some way that the interference is making its way to the coax cable?? Is there some sore of choce or block I should look into to isolate the satellite feed after the diplexer....I'm really at a loss here and looking for suggestions. Thanks.

You'll probably get a more accurate response in the Hardware forum, but I used to have the same fits with the standard light dimmer in my HT room. When set at certain positions, the hum it puts into the ground would interfere with the 22khz satellite switch. In other words, I'd lose B or C channels. It had no effect on Sat A reception. Before I could track down the issue, I switched from the multi-dish arrangement to the Phase III dish with its built-in multiswitch. That switch doesn't seem to be bothered by the dimmers. If you can, try bypassing your multiswitch. If the problem goes away, then you have the same issue I did. Now finding where it's getting into the coax.. that's the REAL fun. Most likely, it's coming up the three-prong into the STB.

Was it just me or was Fox19's broadcast of the UC game today absolutely horrible? It looked like the floor was changing from normal looking to a horrible shade of green and back again.

I know the broadcast is never very good, but today was awful.

Dr. Don,

Thanks for the reply. Turns out the 4X8 indoor multiswitch is causing the problem. (Of course this was the last things I checked). Connecting the receivers directly to the oval dish's outputs take care of the breakups when the x-10 switches are dimmed. I'm wondering if an x-10 filter at the receiver and/or on the power to the multiswitch would get rid of the issue. Can anyone recommend a good 4X8 multiswitch that may be a little more resistant to noise?

WBQC/WOTH was up in power on 38 yesterday evening. I don't know if they were at full power yet, but they were a lot stronger than WBQC on 25.

Originally posted by luebster
Was it just me or was Fox19's broadcast of the UC game today absolutely horrible? It looked like the floor was changing from normal looking to a horrible shade of green and back again.

I know the broadcast is never very good, but today was awful.

I didnt notice any visual problems with the game, however they did seem to have some audio problems.
The one thing I noticed is when watching through TWC HD box the screen was
streched up-down to much like I couldnt see the scores at all. When I bypassed their box everything was normal.

On the other had did anyone have any problems problems w MNF yesturday? I was watching this on my 2nd HD that has OTA and the colors (red and blue) were flying everywhere. Signal strengh was ok as well as other HD channels.

i unfortunatly was at work late last night and did not see wcpo - I am assuming the jaggies are still there?

jim

Nope...no problems with Monday night. Strange about 19 through the TW box...

any word on when they're going to carry 19HD?

Originally posted by jim tressler
i unfortunatly was at work late last night and did not see wcpo - I am assuming the jaggies are still there?

jim
I didn't notice the jaggies on the field (such as the yellow first down line), but they were VERY noticable on the on-screen graphics. The ABC logo looked like it was made out of Legos or something.

The ABC logo looked like it was made out of Legos or something

That is an EXCELLENT way to describe the jaggies problem!

I just got Time Warner Cable hooked up in Cincinnati, OH. It is the SA8000 DVR. I was praying for the HD DVR but I guess I will have to wait.

I have a problem with it though and was hoping someone could help me out.

Channels 1-100 are analog and everything else is digital. I hooked up the audio via Coaxial Digital since I want to be able to watch things in 5.1 when available. However, since channels 1-100 are analog, I am not getting any sound at all.

Do I actually have to hook up analog left/right as well and run the sound to a separate input on my A/V receiver? This seems extremely annoying. There must be a simpler way.

Anyone?

Thanks,
Mike

Originally posted by ItzMe
That is an EXCELLENT way to describe the jaggies problem!

I've studied this thread regarding the jaggies and have yet to see them (thank goodness). I receive Digital WCPO OTA and have it hooked up through my HD tivo via HDMI. Picture is perfect. Hmmmmm.

Originally posted by upgrade-itis
I've studied this thread regarding the jaggies and have yet to see them (thank goodness). I receive Digital WCPO OTA and have it hooked up through my HD tivo via HDMI. Picture is perfect. Hmmmmm.
My setup is EXACTLY the same. The picture is perfect, except for the on-screen graphics, such as the ABC/MNF logo/scoreboard, player stat overlays, etc.

Any curved graphics (especially if they are colored yellow) are blocky. Kinda like Legos.

Id be curious to see a photo of the ABC logo on MNF on upgrade-itis's setup

Originally posted by luebster
My setup is EXACTLY the same. The picture is perfect, except for the on-screen graphics, such as the ABC/MNF logo/scoreboard, player stat overlays, etc.

Any curved graphics (especially if they are colored yellow) are blocky. Kinda like Legos.

Are we sure that Lego-like graphics are not what ABC intended? In other words is it different when viewed on another ABC affiliate like Dayton? Maybe some folks who receive both can chime in. It's possible that the typeset they use is not smooth lettering or numbering but is block-like.

I did not see the jagged yardlines this week like I saw earlier

It's not the font; it's the yellow circle in the ABC logo.

Originally posted by Sea Ray
Are we sure that Lego-like graphics are not what ABC intended? In other words is it different when viewed on another ABC affiliate like Dayton? Maybe some folks who receive both can chime in. It's possible that the typeset they use is not smooth lettering or numbering but is block-like.

I did not see the jagged yardlines this week like I saw earlier

see post 1070 of this thread (page 54): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4325297#post4325297
quoted from nitewatchman:
I've never seen the jaggies on WCPO-DT HD before tonight, but then again I haven't had time to watch much TV lately .. You can even see the jaggies on WCPO-DT in the score bug in upper rh corner ... The jaggies are NOT there on WKEF-DT during MNF HD tonight.. Easy to see the difference in the yellow circle around the "ABC" ...

it's a WCPO thing

Originally posted by Sea Ray
Maybe some folks who receive both can chime in. There's a noticable difference between WCPO and WKEF. The interlacing artifacts are something we're all used to since they've always been there on NTSC broadcasts and, to a lesser extent, 1080i material. It's only when you see a picture without them that you notice the difference. And, once you get to looking, you see the condition during the filmed dramas, too. Watch the close-ups of Sawyer's beard on "Lost" or any diagonal line in the background as the camera does a slow pan. You'll see the jagged lines on WCPO-DT but not on WKEF-DT. During "Housewives," Sunday night, the MCO switched over to the NTSC feed in the middle of a car commercial and the picture actually got BETTER.

Channels 1-100 are analog and everything else is digital. I hooked up the audio via Coaxial Digital since I want to be able to watch things in 5.1 when available. However, since channels 1-100 are analog, I am not getting any sound at all.

I'm using the Pace box as I'm waiting for the SA8000HD DVR. I only have digital coaxial going to my receiver and have no problems getting the audio for channels 1-99.

Originally posted by ItzMe
Id be curious to see a photo of the ABC logo on MNF on upgrade-itis's setup
I barely notice it in the ABC logo, I would not have known without looking for it. It certainly is not comparable to the photos I've seen previously posted. I definitely have never see it around yard markers, field logos, etc., and I watch MNF religiously. My native resolution on my HDTV is 768p, may this have something to do with it? I trust everyone's opinion in this forum, and I am not suggesting that people do not see the "jaggies", only that I do not see a significant problem.

If I can figure out a way to post a photo on this site I will.

Originally posted by DrDon
There's a noticable difference between WCPO and WKEF. The interlacing artifacts are something we're all used to since they've always been there on NTSC broadcasts and, to a lesser extent, 1080i material. It's only when you see a picture without them that you notice the difference. And, once you get to looking, you see the condition during the filmed dramas, too. Watch the close-ups of Sawyer's beard on "Lost" or any diagonal line in the background as the camera does a slow pan. You'll see the jagged lines on WCPO-DT but not on WKEF-DT. During "Housewives," Sunday night, the MCO switched over to the NTSC feed in the middle of a car commercial and the picture actually got BETTER.

What was your impession of yesterday's MNF game? Was there improvement as some have noted in the yardline jaggies?

I think any "improvement" is simply because it's a different field. The farther from the field the press box is, the worse the artifacts. You see it the worst from the SkyCam when it's shooting straight down the field. The yard markers toward the distant end zone blink or strobe when the camera moves or zooms. The consistent thing is the score bug. On WKEF-DT, the ABC circle doesn't show the above-mentioned Lego effect. But it's one of those things someone has to point out. My wife had no idea why I kept switching back and forth until I pointed out the blinking sideline. Now SHE sees it, too. <g>.

Back to the WBQC thing. On what channel are they broadcasting digital?

They aren't. Won't be until midyear at the earliest.

WBQC/WOTH was up in power on 38 yesterday evening. I don't know if they were at full power yet, but they were a lot stronger than WBQC on 25.

Guess I was jumping the gun. Getting fair analog reception for my rabbit ears though. So hopefully when they go "GOLD" i'll have another channel to watch.

Sorry about that. I should have specified that I was talking about WBQC/WOTH analog. I don't think that WBQC has any idea what channel their future digital station will be assigned. That will probably be picked by the FCC's "Sorting Hat" early next year.

Even though I am getting a much stronger analog signal on 38 now, I am still getting some interference. I don't know if its from Louisville, Columbus, or Murry, KY.

Clarke,

If the CCI is from Louisville(WKMJ-DT) or Columbus(WOSU-DT), it would just add "snow", since those are digital. If it's analog Co-Channel interference (Horizontal Lines) then it's probably from WKMR, Morehead. I heard from a fellow in Georgetown, KY who says interference has increased for him to WKMR 38 since 38 Cincy powered up. They do have a null in the transmitting antenna pattern towards Morehead.

When WOTH-LP was at 18KW ERP, I know it didn't take much here to get some analog CCI from WKMR, and oftentimes I could turn the antenna a little bit and see either station.

Anyway, I'm getting a nice signal on 38 Cincy up here since they powered up from 32 miles North of the tower. Crystal clear. Even gettting it better than WSTR 64 on a little TV w/indoor antenna in the kitchen. Of course, I just get a little snow on 25, it's been more or less watchable most of the time since about 96~98 or so. Certianly nice to see the improvement on 38, though.

I was thinking about what channel they might get for WBQC companion digital channel -- Since Elliot Block said 15KW ERP, I take it they are looking at UHF, as 15KW ERP is the Max for LP/CA digital on UHF per the new rules -- VHF(ch 2-13, no differences for lo/Hi-VHF), they've set the max for LP digital at a whopping 300 WATTS ERP, and given the Co-channel/adjacent channel "issues", there's probably nothing "free" on VHF around here that would work with 300 watts ..

I did a seat of the pants look(the U/D ratios, channel masks, the "interference" rules, the new LP digital rules specifiy/etc) at what sort of digital channel allocation they might be looking at/might get -- There is potentailly some sort of "issue" with just about every channel, due to nearby 1st adjacent or co-channel stations. Depending upon how they make their "case" to FCC, if they use Lonegly-Rice+the "DTV Methodology" rather than the "contour methodology" I think there are a few channels they might be able to use --And, they are going to be allowed to(at least temporarily) use 52-59 for companion digital channel, but LP digitals will likely have to eventually move off of 52-59 as well.

So, for various reasons - and again just a guess :

I'm thinking 23 or 57 might be the best we have for WBQC's digital companion channel, otherwise, on a few other channels that might be possibilities, they might have to do less(perhaps quite a bit less) than 15KW ERP because of interference protection issues :

For 23 -- If it can "work" with WKEF 22 on one side+WCVN-DT 24 on the other. They will just be licensing companion channels as LP's, Not CA's,(The digital will be Class A after analog shut off) so they can accept interference from other stations, but can't cause interference TO other stations.

For 57 - I'd think this is probably the best "open channel" left for Cincy during the transistion ... Given other 1st adjacent channel Dayton/Cincy Digitals, I wouldn't think WPTD-DT 58 Dayton would be a problem, or the KET N KY LP translator on 56 .... WOTH-LP DID have a CP for 57, which they were issued because of their displacement off 39 by WKOI-DT, but Block was able to get it changed to 25 and WBQC's current facilities, with STA's for 38 from the time WKOI-DT came up(Fall 2002) to the present time.

The interference I am getting appears to be analog in the form of a vertical distortion pattern rolling (I think) from right to left. There was no distortion at 4AM this morning when I assume to interfering station was off the air. Probably WKMR in Morehead.

Your analysis of the most likely potential digital station assignments seems good. We'll just have to wait and see.

Hmmm ... I'm not sure what you're describing is analog CCI .... Also, WKMR should be up 24/7 unless they were down for maintanance. If you're still using that blake on the roof, also you wouldn't think CCI from them would be a problem with antenna aimed at Cincy. Is it possible you are seeing a intermod product from a overloaded Amp, coming from perhaps one of the Nearby Cincy stations -- did you notice if any of those were off air this morning?

There's a good section (section 14) on TV interference here:

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennadex.html

Also Attached screenshots show NTSC to NTSC Co-Channel analog interference, which is pretty easy to identify -- it's a horizontal pattern/Horizontal lines. A "herringbone" pattern indicates interference from a FM audio carrier(possibly, not from the "station" itself, but from intermod product being created by a overloaded preamp/etc). Intermod can make for some other interesting looking "stuff" as well.

The pics:

At left, WLNE 6, New Bedford Ma recieved here via Sporadic E propagation 7/6/04. I wouldn't want to try to guess who the "interfering" station was that is causing the Horizontal lines(not the snow).

At right, WEHT 25, Evansville, IN received via tropo on 8/25/03. In this case, the "interfering" ;) station causing the horizontal lines is WBQC-CA 25. OF course, I had to aim antenna at Evansville to get it through WBQC, with antenna aimed towards Cincinnati at the time, I was getting WBQC for the most part just fine, with some CCI from WEHT(but not as severe looking as what you see here).

I don't know what we are going to do to figure this stuff out once the analogs are gone ... we'll all need spectrum analyzers I guess ...

WKMR (Morehead)and WKMJ-DT (Louisville) Both on 38, have not been off the air that I am aware of..

Thanks for the info William. You should know. Hopefully I'll have a chance to look at the problem this weekend. I'm leaning toward the IM idea.

Hey all.. happy (insert your holiday here) to you and your family!!!

WCPO is jaggie as usual tonight :(

jim

Jim..

I've gotten to where I just look at the ABC bug. When you look at it vs WKEF's signal, you can see the jaggies on ANY night. On my set, it's most noticeable at 11:00 (on the logo, not time of day).

BTW, you have ST, right, Jim? Did you see the jaggies issue on the Seahawks game? No other FOX HD games, just that one. Hmmm.

Fox19 w HD box scoring problems....
Maybe it's just me but I took some snapshots last night.

http://www.ragingrussian.com/pics/fox19-twc/

Either way on the same TV the scores showed correctly if I used straight calbe plug in or through my ReplayTV. On my 2nd HDTV (the one without cable box) it showever properly though the straight calbe and OTA HD.

Could my HD TWC box be possibly hosed? I reset it but it only fixed the crackiling sound that I've been getting only during UC basketball games.

That looks like typical overscan. You're probably missing the top (and bottom and sides) of all programming. I'd check your television settings. More info on overscan can be found in the hardware forums.

Does any Replay do HD? I didn't think so.

What this looks like to me is a 4X3 image that has been zoomed in on a 16X9 screen. I do that a lot on SD signals over cable, like TNT, which I know are broadcast in HD.

I didn't think 19 had negotiated an HD deal with either Time Warner or Insight yet. They damn well better get it done before the Super Bowl.

I am glad I took the ota plunge and won the battle with the wife - i could not imagine not having fox hd for football.. makes all the difference when watching games.. its to the point now where if its not hd I dont watch - the only exception beging the awfull browns (I know, I know)

jim

go browns - ahhh fu*k it, they suck

I'm with you jim...the only non-HD football (or any non-HD sports for that matter) are the Bengals, Bearcats, and Reds...

Speaking of the Reds, it looks like they might actually be trying to put together a team...no superstars, but every new acquisition so far seems to be a very solid major leaguer. OT, I know, but 12" of snow will make you long for summer and the Reds!

Being a native clevelander I love the snow.. its amazing how the white death cripples this area.. now on to the reds, obviosly I am an Indians fan, but I like the reds more than the bengals - I just dont know if dan obrien knows what he is doing.. back on topic.. hopefully we will see FSN Ohio jump on the HD bandwagon - wishfull thinking i think :)

jim

Originally posted by psm0110
That looks like typical overscan. You're probably missing the top (and bottom and sides) of all programming. I'd check your television settings. More info on overscan can be found in the hardware forums.

Hmmm, that input gets used for my Xbox also, but I havent really seen any problems with overscan there. None of the other channels going through HD box get overscanned that I remember either, guess I will doublecheck this tonight at home. That is if I wont get snowed in at work. :)

was the uc game in hd tonight? I read on bearcat news that the last two were?? damn.. missed it if it was

Speaking of HD, the Giants-Bengals are in HDTV, Sunday. Enquirer says it's not sold out, yet, however. Giants are NFC, so if it does sell out, it'll be on WXIX.

Originally posted by jim tressler
was the uc game in hd tonight? I read on bearcat news that the last two were?? damn.. missed it if it was

No, it was not. I noticed during the Jackson State game on Monday that they touted the HD truck and panned across a couple cameramen's cameras that clearly showed that they were HD cameras. I was watching it on TiVo, so I couldn't which to 19.1 to see if it was in fact HD.

So, I recorded 19.1 for Wednesday's games vs LaSalle and it was definitely NOT HD. I thought I recall seeing earlier in this thread that Fox19 was "testing" HD for Bearcat games and would broadcast them beginning sometime in January?

Anyone have any additional info on this? Anyone have the proper contact person's info at Fox19?

The 'Cats are looking good and they'd look even better in HD. I can't wait to see Huggie Bear's veins popping from his forehead!

Originally posted by DrDon
Speaking of HD, the Giants-Bengals are in HDTV, Sunday. Enquirer says it's not sold out, yet, however. Giants are NFC, so if it does sell out, it'll be on WXIX.
According to the Fox19 news (no laughter, please), the game is sold out for broadcast purposes, although there are still some tickets available (likely obstructed views and single seats).

Originally posted by luebster
Anyone have any additional info on this? The plug was pulled on Bearcat HD plans because of lack of cable carriage. If you want to contact anyone, contact your cable company. It was certainly nice of WXIX to even consider the venture. But it would be tough to upsell the avails to cover the cost if WXIX-DT is only reaching a fraction of the HD-enabled housholds the other guys can hit. Perhaps the looming Super Bowl will get the cablecos to get off their seats.

I hope they continue using the HD equipment as the analog version is improved and if XIX broadcasts enough HD material, TWC will hopefully carry it soon. I could tell as soon as the Jackson State game came on the improvement and then they verified my assumption that they were using HD equipment.

well, I'm getting WXIX HD via OTA and they are NOT broadcasting the UC games in HD. I don't understand why they would bother using HD equipment (cameras and trucks) if they aren't going to broadcast it in HD.

If they are in fact using HD equipment, why wouldn't they broadcast it in HD for those of us that CAN get XIX in HD? Is it really that much more expensive?

Originally posted by luebster
Is it really that much more expensive? Yep.

Originally posted by DrDon
Yep.
Bummer..then it sucks for those of us that can get it, but suffer because TWC is quibbling over the carriage contract.

Yet another reason to despise TW.

I see that ESPN 2 HD is set to kick off on Jan 6th and their first HD broadcast will be UC basketball. Anyone heard of whether anyone is going to pickup ESPN 2HD? TWC?DirecTv?Dish? I've heard nothing.

I don't think there's anything definitive, but there are some threads from viewers in ABC O&O cities who have noticed the "ABC_HD" line in their accounts. We knew the Disney-DirecTV carriage deal was up, this year and a new one was being negotiated. Disney NEEDS ESPNHD2 carriage. DirecTV NEEDS ABC-HD. I can't imagine Disney giving up ABC-HD without getting what they want in return. Just speculation, mind you, but I think it'll be on D* from the get-go.

Originally posted by DrDon
DirecTV NEEDS ABC-HD. I can't imagine Disney giving up ABC-HD without getting what they want in return. Just speculation, mind you, but I think it'll be on D* from the get-go.

I was under the impression that DirecTV did not provide any network HD coverage. That burden fell on the customer via ANT and picking up the local signal. Are you saying that DirecTV may soon be providing ABC HD and you'll no longer have to deal with WCPO jaggies?

Regardless, if anyone picks up ESPNHD2 in the Cincinnati area next month please post here and brag about it!

Originally posted by Sea Ray
I was under the impression that DirecTV did not provide any network HD coverage. They carry CBS, NBC and FOX DT affiliates from NY and LA. Looks like they'll add ABC to that list. The nets issued blanket waivers making those signals are available in markets where the network owns the affiliate. This cuts the "networks in HD" cable advantage somewhat in the country's biggest cities.

Sorry, but none of the Cincinnati affiliates are network-owned, so the New York stations are unavailable, here. Your best way around the jaggies is still to use an OTA receiver and an antenna pointed at Dayton (which, for me, isn't working with all the snow on my roof (mine's in the attic)

WXIX-DT is airing last weeks game in HD. They must be testing the HD playback. It looks good in HD.

Make sure and blow them a thank-you note so they'll know someone saw it. ;)

Email sent.

Spoke with a CSR today at TWC... Somewhere along the line, the lack of TWC's carriage of Fox19 in HD came up. She said "Oh, we'll have that on line before the Superbowl". I asked her if she guaranteed it, and she said it was a done deal...nice.

Also saw a related post over on www.cincinnatihdtv.com (http://www.cincinnatihdtv.com) that says Raycom signed a nationwide deal to have TWC carry the HD signal...

I imagine the fact that they're even playing with the DT is a good indication they're ramping up for something.

damn, damn, damn , damn.. I missed it!! maybe I will send an email as well.. :)

They were showing the UC JSU game again this evening around 7pm when I was scanning the dial. Something is up.

Possibilities:

1) Have or demo-ing HD-to-tape gear. Good news for timeshifting or if the syndicated programming packages they subscribe to (specifically movies) are planning to distribute in HD.

2) Testing a backhaul. The next WXIX game isn't until the 8th, however.

3) Testing the link to TW.

DAMN DAMN DAMN! I missed it too!

That's what I get for not checking the guide anymore...

Man the TWC CSRs are really hit or miss. The CSR said she has not heard a deal has been worked out yet with Raycom. This CSR also had not heard of ESPN2-HD. I'm just hoping that the deal in the fall between Disney and Time Warner included ESPN2-HD and ESPNU and that they should both go online shortly after or on their launch dates.

Originally posted by smackman
Spoke with a CSR today at TWC... Somewhere along the line, the lack of TWC's carriage of Fox19 in HD came up. She said "Oh, we'll have that on line before the Superbowl". I asked her if she guaranteed it, and she said it was a done deal...nice.

Also saw a related post over on www.cincinnatihdtv.com (http://www.cincinnatihdtv.com) that says Raycom signed a nationwide deal to have TWC carry the HD signal...

After reading your post, I called TWC and asked them about it. The CSR put me on hold for a few minutes then came back and said they did not have any information at this time. She said nothing has been confirmed with them.

Hopefully what you heard was true. It would be nice if a few others heard the same thing.

BTW: for anyone interested, I asked them again about HD DVR availability and got the same answer I have been getting for the last month. "They will be available very soon". We'll see.

Originally posted by mchuckp
Hopefully what you heard was true. It would be nice if a few others heard the same thing. The latest story (http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/living/10326963.htm) I could find.

Well I hope it is true. I'd hate to propagate wrong information on my site as well. I will send them another email asking as well.

Anyone notice 48 is off the air?

WCET-DT's rarely on the air overnight, IIRC.

Originally posted by DrDon
WCET-DT's rarely on the air overnight, IIRC.

Thats interesting since WCET provides the digital channel signals 24/7 to time warner cable.

Ah, but it's the transmitter that eats up copious quantities of expensive electricity. Encoders, not so much ;)

12:30a 1/1/05 UPDATE: 25 and 38 have traded places. WBQC-CA is UPN 38 and they're calling 25 "the other channel." Simulcast a half hour clip show before the swap. Strangely, the video on 38 (to me) appears just as grainy as it did on 25. 38's PQ was better before the swap.

I'm less than a mile from Dr. Don and I see a substantial improvement, although I still see some grain in the WBQC signal and some color blooming. It is however, still a low power signal. Now, if they just get the TV schedules changed so that channel 38 shows up on my TIVOs I'll be happy. Then we can all look forward to WBQC-DT...maybe in 2005.

Well, I'm not seeing as many video issues on 38, this morning. Matter of fact, it looks downright sharp. Engineers either stayed up all night tweaking or it was just a cruddy VTR that was running the sitcom I was watching.

Insight Cable must've made the swap after I went to bed. UPN38 still shows up on ch 25 on their system.

One more thing: There's an open-box Sammy T-351 for $140 at the HH Gregg in Florence, if anyone's interested. Didn't see the remote, so you might could talk them down another 40.

I posted that a little late about WCET. I think it was about 9 or 10 pm when I noticed it. I think I was checking to see if Nature or a National Geograpic was being broadcast in HD friday night.

Have to say that I'm very suprised at how few games are going to be in HD this weekend too.