Cincinnati, OH - HDTV [Text View] - Page 9

tbenson81

01-15-05, 08:06 PM

I have an impossible problem that is driving me crazy. Any technical advice or insight would be greatly appreciated. I have the pace 550 HD box with TW currently connected to the TV via DVI and Surround via optical audio. Every channel comes through perfectly except channel 905 wlwt-dt (HD NBC). If I watch this channel for a few minutes, I will get constant audio / video dropouts and pixelization for a fraction of a second. It seems like it is dropping packets or something. I watch my surround sound receiver and the LR stereo flashes everytime this happens so it seems like its losing the signal for a millisecond. This is very irritating and problematic because it is this channel only. Someone suggested that it could be a weak signal. I pulled up the pace diagnostic page for this channel and here were the results:

Tuner 585.00 mhz -2 dbmv
FDC 119.00 mhz -3 dbmv
RDC 11.00 mhz 26 dbmv
QAM avg SNR 33
Tuner Ber (Avg) 1.63x10-6

From what I know about signal strength these numbers seem to be adequate and shouldn’t be causing this type of problem. In fact when I tune to other HD channels such as ESPN and ABC their tuner readings are even lower. They are around –6 and WLW is around –2. I have called Time Warner and the CSR said it was not happening to them, so I don’t know what else it could be. If anyone has any further advice or suggestions it would be greatly appreciated.

PS – I don’t know if this helps but when I hit the guide button and the video is shown in a smaller window in the top right of the screen, the audio/video dropouts occur continuously instead of every 20 – 30 seconds or so. Don’t know if that helps. I have tried changing the resolution settings from 1080 or passthrough and 480 and neither has remedied the problem. Thanks a lot for everyone’s help.

Kathy

01-15-05, 08:11 PM

Last week I was watching an NFL wildcard playoff game on Fox 19.1. All of a sudden the channel went blank, and actually disappeared from my channel selections. I have rescanned my Sony HD-200 receiver twice, but 19.1 no longer appears. When I manually enter 19.1, it says Channel Not Available. What's the scoop? I was just getting ready to watch the Rams/Falcons game.

jim tressler

01-15-05, 09:11 PM

very weird.. just now listening the to rear surrounds on wxix during the falcons rams game you could hear what sounded like someone in the control room talking to some one on the field..

jim

Paul210

01-15-05, 10:54 PM

Originally posted by Kathy
When I manually enter 19.1, it says Channel Not Available. What's the scoop? I was just getting ready to watch the Rams/Falcons game.

Kathy,

Try manually entering 29 and see if it pops up on 29-3. They've been having psip problems.

Paul

luebster

01-16-05, 12:02 AM

Originally posted by jim tressler
very weird.. just now listening the to rear surrounds on wxix during the falcons rams game you could hear what sounded like someone in the control room talking to some one on the field..

jim
I heard it too, Jim. Sounded like they could tell their audio was coming through and they were trying to figure out how it was happening. They seemed to fix it around the start of the 4th qtr...Man, the Rams showed why they went 8-8 this year. The Falcons are going to be really tough next week...

Kathy

01-16-05, 12:06 PM

Paul210,
Thanks so much. When I pushed 29, it said Channel Not Available, but when I advanced the channel button, the next channel was 29.3 and there it was, Fox in what appeared to be HD.
Kathy

tim99

01-16-05, 12:30 PM

This stinks. If I scan I only find them at 19-1 and there is a signal but no broadcast. There is nothing at 29-3 for me.

@#$@#$. They had it working yesterday I wish they would have just left it alone.

zekyl

01-16-05, 12:48 PM

Go figure, I can not pickup FOX HD either on the 29 range of channels, however, I am getting it on 30.1. Might want to try that.

microbob

01-16-05, 12:49 PM

30-1 is Fox WRGT-45 in Dayton OH by the way

zekyl

01-16-05, 01:06 PM

Oh, whoops. My Bad. I can pick that with no issues then. Local FOX19 in Cincinnati I get nothing.

tim99

01-16-05, 01:09 PM

I really appreciate the responses. Good folks in this group.

From where I am in Grants Lick (by AJ Jolly) I've not been able to get Dayton at all so that's out.

Nothing on 29-x.

I was so happy yesterday when it came on a few hours before the game. Now I'm back to buying a receiver just to use for a week.

Up until now I was really looking forward to FOX doing the Super Bowl this year :)

rcweiss

01-16-05, 02:52 PM

I have also sent off an email to wxix - although they usually are not responsive. I believe I may send an email to the local congressmen asking that a change be made to the blackout rules so that customers of local stations that refuse to invest the neccessary resources to provide a reliable digital signal be allowed to recieve the network signals from an alternate provider. That change would get the local stations off their butts and speed the conversions or if they choose not to then the local customers can watch the alternative provider. As it is now the local customers are held hostage to the whims of the local affiliate.

tim99

01-16-05, 05:29 PM

I sent a message to the operations manager, general manager and sales manager (which if its anything like radio . . .) explaining the problem and also noting that it effected DirecTV's new branded STB which is the only one they are going to be deploying moving forward and that all these new D* customers won't be able to receive their signal.

It's hard to imagine that they aren't at least aware of the problem by now. They did have it working yesterday.

Theater Guy

01-16-05, 06:30 PM

I live in the east side of Cincinnati. About 15 miles from the transmitters downtown and in Northern Kentucky. Just FYI, I have been able to pick up FOX 19 on channel 29-x just fine. I watched the game this afternoon and it looked like it was in HD. Hope you all get it sorted out before the superbowl...

BTW, I am using the LST-4200a for my OTA receiver, and a Channel Master Stealthtenna (with preamp) IN MY BASEMENT. I didn't expect to be able to pick up anything in my basement, but to my surprise, this combination has been working well with picking up all the Cincinnati stations (except WB) and almost all of the Dayton stations. Since this setup is working, I'm reluctant to fish a coax up to my attic...

Hope that helps...

tim99

01-16-05, 07:45 PM

Thanks for your help but I believe this just means the 4200A doesn't need PSIP and instead gets the info from D*. Best I understand it PSIP is metadata inserted into the broadcast stream that >some< HD receivers require to identify OTA broadcasts on virtual channel #'s. My signal for WXIX on 19-1 is very strong, but no video/audio. And because they are not sending PSIP my STB cannot find them on 29-x.

Pretty cool you can get a good signal in your basement. I just put up a new antenna and my signal stunk even when assembled in my front yard. However once I got it mounted on the roof it gets all the Cincy stations just fine. At least when they're functional.

peace . . .

Originally posted by Theater Guy
I live in the east side of Cincinnati. About 15 miles from the transmitters downtown and in Northern Kentucky. Just FYI, I have been able to pick up FOX 19 on channel 29-x just fine. I watched the game this afternoon and it looked like it was in HD. Hope you all get it sorted out before the superbowl...

BTW, I am using the LST-4200a for my OTA receiver, and a Channel Master Stealthtenna (with preamp) IN MY BASEMENT. I didn't expect to be able to pick up anything in my basement, but to my surprise, this combination has been working well with picking up all the Cincinnati stations (except WB) and almost all of the Dayton stations. Since this setup is working, I'm reluctant to fish a coax up to my attic...

Hope that helps...

Nitewatchman

01-16-05, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by tim99
Thanks for your help but I believe this just means the 4200A doesn't need PSIP and instead gets the info from D*. Best I understand it PSIP is metadata inserted into the broadcast stream that >some< HD receivers require to identify OTA broadcasts on virtual channel #'s. My signal for WXIX on 19-1 is very strong, but no video/audio. And because they are not sending PSIP my STB cannot find them on 29-x.

I don't think the LG LST-4200a gets any info from D*, since it's a OTA(ATSC only) only receiver - Well, it does OTA as well as "In the clear" QAM signals via cable.

WXIX-DT is sending PSIP data, but SOME of it is "wrong", or, how certian receivers are handling it is wrong. There is more to PSIP than just remapping the major/minor channel numbers. I don't know whether it is WXIX's intention to "stop" remapping to 19.1, but, since one of their people specifically mentioned 29.3, I'd guess they are doing that part now intentionally ...

Best I can tell from the reports here, basically, some receivers(even after rescans/etc) can't seem to figure out the PSIP WXIX-DT is currently sending to enough of an extent to allow them to decode the datastreams - other receivers can.

Just a guess, but I suspect some receivers(the ones that aren't working) may be getting "stuck" on whatever references may be left in their PSIP tables that USED to work for their X.1 subchannel, and probably should have been removed, but perhaps weren't.

I suspect this because, If I tune directly to 29.1 on my Zenith HDV420 receiver (And yes, this is after a "rescan" done since WXIX-DT changed their PSIP) :

The "dolby digital" (audio)indicator lights up for 29.1 -- Which generally indicates the receiver has a signal/PSIP lock, but, from what I can tell anyway, that indicator does not seem to show up in any case if there is not some sort of associated PSIP data for that subchannel that is "active"(unless the station is not sending PSIP at all+instead is using "other metadata" to tell receivers what to do -- it "works" then as well) - such as say, if I tune directly to 29.2, or 29.4~99, or WCVN-DT/KET 54.3/54.4/54.6 when they aren't "actually" active, then the "dolby digital" audio indicator will NOT light up. Otherwise, on 29.1, besides the dolby digital indicator it's just a blank screen, no audio/etc - and, while IT isn't showing a remap for 29.1 to 19.1, I'm guessing some receivers are also seeing a "remap" to 19.1 from 29.1 as well(and are doing the same thing -- "looking" to 29.1 if you tune to 29 on those receivers), as it USED to work before they made any changes, but of course, there is "nothing" that is actually there to decode.

Zenith HDV420 is OTA only receiver - a older "version" of the LG4200a -- you can't "turn off" what a station is sending PSIP wise with it, including channel remapping info.

On the other hand, with the HDV420, if I tune to either "29", or "29.3"(or channel up/down button), it will show "29.3" with audio/video streams decoding just fine. But some receivers don't seem to be able to even "get to" the info in their PSIP tables which would tell the receiver "where" the datastreams actually "are" for WXIX-DT ...

However -- WBDT-DT 18(USED to remap to 26.1, don't know what it is remapping to now, If anything) WB HD Dayton recently(last week) made changes to THEIR PSIP which is NOT working with the HDV420. All I get is a blank screen, with plenty of signal showing up on the meter, no matter what I try with them .. Basically, same thing you are getting with WXIX-DT, but, probably for a slightly different reason, but one that I'd guess also probably involves improper PSIP implementation at the station. My other receiver, however -- DTC-100, with channel remapping turned OFF is seeing them just fine on 18-2, which is allways where I've seen them with remapping turned off .... I haven't tried the DTC with channel remapping turned on recently, as its a bit of a "long" process to turn it off/on. This is one of the things that happens if you turn on/off "off air guides" function on DTC-100 -- obvioulsly, Off air guides via PSIP are turned off/on as well(as is auto clock set via PSIP). And, no, I don't even have the sat receiver "side" of the DTC-100 even hooked up to a dish, never have.

Originally posted by tim99
It's hard to imagine that they aren't at least aware of the problem by now. They did have it working yesterday.

I *wish* it would still be hard for me to imagine, or believe ;) ... Believe it or not, the "some reciever's getting nothing but a blank screen(but plenty of "quality signal") PSIP issue" HAS happened from WXIX-DT before ... Last time was Summer 2003 if I recall correctly ... Seemed to have taken about a month, month and a half to make them "aware" of the problem, and a few days for them to fix it after that(If I recall correctly, that time, their PSIP generator needed a "reboot") ...

Who knows, I doubt though that they changed anything when it was working for you yesterday .... Whatever "happened" that let you see them -- IF you wouldn't have changed the channel SINCE then, it would very likely still be there "OK" .... A little hard to watch the Colts/Pats game in HD today like that though ..

tim99

01-16-05, 10:27 PM

D'oh! my mistake, I incorrectly saw LG 3200A which is of course LG's D* receiver. I have the H10 which is D*'s new branded HD receiver and it will not receive WXIX. I would think that if this receiver had problems decoding a proper ATSC standard PSIP we'd be hearing about it in the H10 thread as the box is being deployed. I'll definitely check in there to be sure there are not issues being reported.

I understand there is more to PSIP than virtual channels but I just felt (perhaps wrongly) its failing at that point. I also at one point suspected corrupted data so I unplugged for a time and did the 'virgin wipe all your data' type factory reset. Shouldn't that get rid of any old sub channel data?

The receiver was new this week and it went all week with a blank 19.1 until a few hours before the game.

To compare notes, I don't even get a Dolby light on 29.x. Nada.

I've also rescanned a bazillion times.

In any case they clearly know about the problem now, the issue is simply whether or not they care enough to do anything about it. THAT I have no doubt could take forever. Knowing and caring are entirely different animals.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to share your knowledge and experience.

peace . . .

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
I don't think the LG LST-4200a gets any info from D*, since it's a OTA(ATSC only) only receiver - Well, it does OTA as well as "In the clear" QAM signals via cable.

<snip>

DrDon

01-16-05, 10:31 PM

Worth a read, Samsung owners: http://beyondtheheadlines.broadcastengineering.com/ppp/

tim99

01-16-05, 10:39 PM

Does anyone have a personal contact at WXIX? It might be good to send them this information from a 'Broadcasters Guide To PSIP' from broadcastengineering.com.

Most common mistakes

Experience has shown that certain errors are common in many PSIP implementations. Typically, these problems include the following:

Missing tables, specifically the STT and EIT.

Major channel number set to the DTV RF channel number, rather than the associated (legacy) NTSC channel number.

TSID set to 0 or 1, the NTSC TSID, or to another station's TSID; or it is not the same in the three required places.

System time missing or set to 00:00:00 on 1/6/1980

Some receivers react to these errors by not tuning to that station.

http://artistoftheyear.broadcastengineering.com/ar/broadcasting_broadcasters_guide_psip/

tim99

01-16-05, 11:18 PM

Apparently we're willing to solve the problem ourselves.

Now we just need to get access to the equipment. :D

Originally posted by DrDon
Worth a read, Samsung owners: http://beyondtheheadlines.broadcastengineering.com/ppp/

Nitewatchman

01-16-05, 11:36 PM

Thanks for that link, Doc ...

Originally posted by tim99
I also at one point suspected corrupted data so I unplugged for a time and did the 'virgin wipe all your data' type factory reset. Shouldn't that get rid of any old sub channel data?

Nope, probably not. But just one rescan would ...

The Zenith box here actually seems to "check", and update the PSIP info for any station you have "marked" in its "channel edit list" everytime you tune to that station. For example ... If WKRC-DT 31, say, starts remapping to 53-7 tomorrow, the first time I "tune" to WKRC-DT on its currently remapped 12-1 tomorrow, it would quickly "automatically" update to whatever the station is currently sending PSIP wise,"wipe out" all the old and start immediately displaying 53-7 ...

----------------------------------------------------

You might not be aware of this, but also keep in mind .... FCC recently enacted rules requiring PSIP compliance from stations as part of their 2nd periodic DTV review. Currently(and previously), PSIP implementation by stations has been voluntary. FCC enacted the new rules/approved the associated report and order in their open meeting on August 4, 2004, and the new PSIP compliance requirement goes into effect for stations on 2/1/05.

I'm not sure if there were any modifications to the PSIP implementation rules before publication in the federal register, but you can download the complete "2nd peroidic DTV review report and order", which(along with a lot of other important DTV stuff going on in the near future) contains info on the new PSIP rules, from here(from under the 9/7/04 date in Word Doc or PDF format) :

http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/

The PSIP section begins at paragraph 149. Follows are some excerpts from the PSIP section of the FCC's "2nd periodic DTV review report and order", with footnotes not included :

A short explanation of PSIP is given in this excerpt of paragraph #149:

"149. In the DTV Tuner Order, we stated that we would seek comment on whether the Commission should adopt the ATSC Program System and Information Protocol (“PSIP”) standard into our rules as part of the DTV periodic review process. PSIP is data that is transmitted along with a station’s DTV signal that tells DTV receivers information about the station and what is being broadcast. PSIP provides a method for DTV receivers to identify a DTV station and to determine how a receiver can tune to it. PSIP identifies both the DTV channel and the associated NTSC channel and enables DTV receivers to associate the two channels, thereby making it easy for viewers to tune to the DTV station even if they do not know the channel number. In addition to identifying the channel number, PSIP tells the receiver whether multiple program channels are being broadcast and, if so, how to find them. It also identifies whether the programs are closed captioned, and conveys available v-chip information, among other things.... "

:end quote

One short excerpt from paragraph #151, which discusses comments from various parties commenting on the 2nd DTV review proceeding :

"151. Zenith states that although some broadcasters are voluntarily transmitting PSIP information, it is often improperly implemented, thereby diminishing the value of PSIP and causing consumer confusion."

:end quote

The complete paragraph #152 and #153 (without footnotes) follow, note that "120 days from publication in federal register" is the date 2/1/05 :

" 152. We conclude that adoption of ATSC A/65B (PSIP) into our broadcast transmission standards will serve the public interest. As pointed out by commenters, during the development of PSIP, the ATSC carefully considered which elements of PSIP should be mandatory and which should be optional. Further, based its experience with the deployment of over 180 PSIP systems, Harris states that it is not aware of any difficulties that are experienced by either the broadcaster or the viewing consumer if the ATSC A/65B PSIP standard is properly implemented. We find the cost to broadcasters of implementing PSIP will be minor in comparison to the overall costs of converting to DTV and will provide many options to expand on the investments they have made to convert to DTV. We therefore require that broadcasters fully implement PSIP to the extent that ATSC A/65B requires. In order to give broadcasters adequate time to come into compliance, this requirement shall take effect 120 days after publication in the Federal Register. We expect broadcasters to populate the required tables and descriptors with the proper information to help receivers assemble functioning guides. All tables and descriptors that require one time setup should be set correctly, including TSID, Short Channel Name, Service Type, Modulation Mode, Source ID, and Service Location Descriptor. ATSC A/65B also requires that broadcasters send populated EITs covering at least a 12 hour period. These EITs should be populated with the correct information, so that the user knows what programs are on for this 12 hour period. Also, we expect that manufacturers will have every incentive to build equipment that looks to PSIP for its basic functionality, but we will revisit the issue if necessary. Standardized use of the data transmitted through PSIP will ensure that the full benefits and innovations of the new digital system will be available to the public.

153. Major/Minor Channel Numbers. In the NPRM, we noted that the ATSC PSIP standard attaches the assignment of “major channel number” values to a broadcaster’s current NTSC RF channel number regardless of the actual RF channel used for DTV transmission, and sought comment on whether there was any need to modify this standard. For example, a broadcaster who operates an NTSC service on channel 4 and a DTV service on channel 27 would use the major channel 4. The PSIP “minor channel number” is used to identify programs and other services, which are a part of the DTV service. For example, channel 4.1 may be an HDTV program service and it may be multiplexed with an SDTV service, which is channel 4.2. According to ATSC, this allows a viewer to easily “surf” from, for example, 4.0 (NTSC) to 4.1 (HDTV) to 4.2 (SDTV). ATSC, MSTV/NAB, and others state that the major/minor channel number scheme established in ATSC A/65B will be useful. ATSC states that the PSIP Standard defines specific requirements for use of “major channel numbers” to provide viewers with a uniform methodology to access DTV services and to avoid conflict with duplicative numbers in a market. The major channel number also allows broadcasters to maintain their local brand identification. We see no reason to modify this standard. During the development of PSIP, ATSC recognized that in some situations broadcasters would need to deviate from the rule that the major channel number is the same as the broadcaster’s NTSC channel number and created certain exceptions. We agree with ATSC and MSTV/NAB that these exceptions should provide broadcasters with the necessary flexibility to address most circumstances. To the extent broadcasters have a unique situation that is not provided for in PSIP, the Commission may grant exceptions on a case-by-case basis. The correct TSIDs must be used to ensure that receivers link the analog and digital channels properly. Accordingly, broadcasters are required to transmit the TSIDs assigned for their stations in their digital transmission. During the transition period while both analog and digital signals are broadcast, stations are required to transmit the NTSC TSID in line 21, field 2 in order for the receiver to locate the programs referenced in PSIP."

:end quote

Given the date that they "changed it" to 29.3 from what was 19.1 remap(for a long time) -- I wonder: Was WXIX granted an "exception" to the major channel remap to the analog channel # "rule", or do one of the exceptions "provided for in PSIP" which they mention apply in this case? Or was there further modification to the requirements this document doesn't cover/etc ?

So, are the new FCC PSIP eliminating "consumer confusion" yet? :confused:

tim99

01-17-05, 05:08 AM

Well it's certainly not doing me any good :)

What's interesting is that in the meantime D* is now cranking out across the country a single branded HD receiver that apparently requires a perfect PSIP implementation. That should make for good fun.

peace . . .

Originally posted by Nitewatchman

So, are the new FCC PSIP eliminating "consumer confusion" yet? :confused:

HDTVChallenged

01-17-05, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by tim99
What's interesting is that in the meantime D* is now cranking out across the country a single branded HD receiver that apparently requires a perfect PSIP implementation. That should make for good fun.

peace . . .

Most of the trouble with D* receivers happens because of conflicting PSIP information. One set of mapping data arrives from Tribune via the APG data, another directly from the station via the OTA antenna. If the two sets don't match up, the results are 'not guarenteed' ;)

ItzMe

01-17-05, 12:09 PM

Two things, first, last Wednesday HD-TIVO HR10-250 found and hasn't lost channel 19-1.

Second, has anyone other than me lost the satellite signal due to tehe cold weather last night and this morning? Its back now, but it looks like the cold (or perhaps ice on the dish?) has caused problems.

Nitewatchman

01-17-05, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by HDTVChallenged
Most of the trouble with D* receivers happens because of conflicting PSIP information. One set of mapping data arrives from Tribune via the APG data, another directly from the station via the OTA antenna. If the two sets don't match up, the results are 'not guarenteed' ;)

HDC,

This problem with WXIX isn't happening with just D* receivers. WBDT-DT Dayton is currently having a similar issue as WXIX. For example, Some models of OTA Only receivers(even after rescans) are having problems with WXIX-DT's PSIP(to the extent that they can't decode the datastreams, even though plenty of "quality signal" still shows up on the meter), since they changed it two weeks ago.

Its not happening because of the conflicts you mention that effect some(probably most) D* receivers that often occur when D* EPG, which usually(unless someone gets D* to change it to what the station is actually sending) "expects" the station to send via PSIP as it's major channel number remapped to it's analog Channel #, usually with the first minor channel number beginning with x-1. In those cases, It's still usually possible to decode the datastreams by tuning to the actual RF channel, although the guide info will just show up on the remapped channel(which will be "blank").

I've heard of SOME D* receivers(older ones If I recall correctly), on the other hand, that don't even seem to display to the user what the station is sending Channel remapping/PSIP wise at all, and(assuming it can "figure out" what the station is sending+decode the datastreams, I don't know whether it's using PSIP, or just MPEGII program numbers/etc) instead just "puts" whatever if finds on the RF channel for that station under the remapped info the D* EPG sends.

It shouldn't be that hard for stations to implement "perfect" PSIP, but there still seems to be a lot of misunderstanding out there concerning PSIP issues, such as how to implement proper PID values in their PSIP tables. Or, perhaps the PSIP generators+encoders aren't set to "agree" with each other concerning what they are sending PSIP wise, or, it isn't "noticed" that the PSIP generator has sneezed and needs "rebooting"/etc .... on the latter, for instance, if a station leaves the receiver it uses to monitor the signal allways tuned to their station, they probably won't even notice there is a problem ....

6speed

01-17-05, 12:42 PM

Sent a second email to WXIX this morning and got a quick response but not alot of info.Hope that they get it fixed soon,at least they know there is a problem.
Bruce,
Our PSIP is being generated, however we are having a issue with some
receivers detecting our program channel.
Samsung is one of those receivers, the receivers we are using here at
WXIX are all working correctly.
We have recently made some changes in our encoding system and your
problem may well be as a result of those changes.
Have you tried reprogramming your receiver by doing a new channel
search?
We are working on the problem and hope to resolve ASAP.

Thanks,

Roger Hatfield
Project Manager

peteranton

01-17-05, 01:53 PM

Of course, Bruce, you did the rescan, and still nothing. Correct?

I take it you have a Samsung, like I have (TS360)? I hope that WXIX takes all the email addresses they accumulate and send out a nice update so we are not constantly rebooting our STBs.

Originally posted by 6speed
Sent a second email to WXIX this morning and got a quick response but not alot of info.Hope that they get it fixed soon,at least they know there is a problem.
Bruce,
Our PSIP is being generated, however we are having a issue with some
receivers detecting our program channel.
Samsung is one of those receivers, the receivers we are using here at
WXIX are all working correctly.
We have recently made some changes in our encoding system and your
problem may well be as a result of those changes.
Have you tried reprogramming your receiver by doing a new channel
search?
We are working on the problem and hope to resolve ASAP.

Thanks,

Roger Hatfield
Project Manager

terryfoster

01-17-05, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by 6speed
Our PSIP is being generated, however we are having a issue with some
receivers detecting our program channel.
Samsung is one of those receivers, the receivers we are using here at
WXIX are all working correctly.

So, should I our shouldn't I buy a Samsung SIR-T351 so that I can get the Super Bowl (WXIX) in HD? If they're having problems with Samsung boxes that won't be solved by the Super Bowl I am hesitant to buy a tuner.

6speed

01-17-05, 02:20 PM

Since I lost their station I've done about 15 rescans,with no results.Yes,unfortunately I do have the TS360 and all of it's other problems and it would be nice if they did update us,but I kind of doubt that will happen.When they get this problem resolved I'll either read about it here or I will have figured it out on my own

tim99

01-17-05, 02:20 PM

I sent a 'business' style letter to the station manager explaining the PSIP problem from a broader perspective including the perception that their lack of communication was generating among local HD enthusiasts and asked if he would intervene as their non response was not putting the station in a good light among those who would spread the gospel one way or the other. Today I got a phone call from the engineer who is in charge of solving the problem.

I learned -

- until just recently they were only aware of 3-4 people with problems.

- we should be seeing them on 19.1, they didn't move.

- they have an analyzer coming in this afternoon (Monday)

- there is at least some earnest. Paraphrasing he said 'We're aware of the problem and we're on it. If we need a piece of equipment we'll get it, we really want you guys back on the air'.

- I mentioned the upcoming playoff game this weekend and he seemed to think we'd be back up long before that unless it was something out of their hands like equipment they couldn't get in time. The notion that we'd miss the game this weekend seemed farfetched to him.

My perception was that he was serious person who was just starting to tackle a problem but was 'all over it' and didn't expect it to take very long. Plus we're going to ping each other to make sure its working or not.

peace . . .

PS Thanks for the 'hint' . Wink wink . . . nudge nudge . . . say no more.

6speed

01-17-05, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by terryfoster
So, should I our shouldn't I buy a Samsung SIR-T351 so that I can get the Super Bowl (WXIX) in HD? If they're having problems with Samsung boxes that won't be solved by the Super Bowl I am hesitant to buy a tuner. That's the million dollar question.Based on tim99's last post it looks good for the NFC championship game,so I'd say the Super Bowl will be a go.Maybe they just didn't know their was a problem,but now that they do it will be resolved quickly.

tim99

01-17-05, 02:49 PM

If it comes to this (and I don't think it will) I would NOT buy a samsung box expecting it work. I've done a lot of reading and it seems the samsung's are right in the line of fire for PSIP problems. Just about every example you read includes a Samsung in the list.

My receiver is the new D* branded H10 which although is spec'd by D* and built by several manuifacuters including Samsung I expect it inherited this problem from that relationship one way or the other.

So if it does come to this I would get a low cost receiver that I know would work. I don't believe in 'bad faith' transactions (the buy and return, and I am sure others don't either) so I figure a ebay resale should cost me $20-50 esp if I can provide the warranty card etc.

peace . . .

Originally posted by terryfoster
So, should I our shouldn't I buy a Samsung SIR-T351 so that I can get the Super Bowl (WXIX) in HD? If they're having problems with Samsung boxes that won't be solved by the Super Bowl I am hesitant to buy a tuner.

mbarcus

01-17-05, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by mchuckp
I really hope they don't stick with the 8000. TWC in many other cities is using the 8300 with success. I would think the 8000 is a has been box. Are they getting bargain basement pricing on them?

Well all I can do is wait and see.

Smackdown, how do you find the overall picture? I've read some threads that say the 8000 has a soft picture. Have you ever had any other boxes to compare it to? I really hate the idea of going to a new box that has a lesser picture quality.

I just got back from vacation last night, and of course the first call I made this morning was to TWC to check on the availability of their HD DVR. They said they ARE now available in LIMITED quantities. You have to be on the waitlist and their telemarketing dept. will contact you when your name is up. I told them I have been on their "waitlist" for months and asked where I was on the list.....they said they had no way of checking. They also didn't know what model they were giving out either.

peteranton

01-17-05, 05:22 PM

Just got this from Rick Oliver/WXIX.....

"Thank you for your message. In compliance with FCC directives, FOX19 recently made some adjustments to its digital signal. Our digital channel can now be found on 29-3. You may wish to hit auto search to reacquire the signal. If the auto-search does not acquire the signal, you may need to adjust manually. If you have a Samsung receiver, or if you are acquiring our signal via a DirecTV H10 Receiver, then we are aware of the additional problems that our recent adjustments are causing with these receivers. We are working with various manufacturers to correct this problem as soon as possible.

Thanks.
Rick Oliver
Operations Manager"

Thank heaven for some "pressure" from us............

zekyl

01-17-05, 06:13 PM

Just to let everyone know, I posted a rather lengthy letter over at www.cincinnatihdtv.com from Raycom Media. The email was from someone pretty high up. He asked that I remove his name and email. It does not really shed a date on the FOX / TWC issue, but it seems like they are truly working on it.

jspicoli

01-17-05, 06:17 PM

Peter.. I received exact same message....

I am a samsung person who has to wait I guess...

zekyl

01-17-05, 06:38 PM

I too sent Rick @ FOX an email about my Samsung T151 problem and not being able to tune directly to 29.3. Just one more reason they need a TWC HD contract for those of us who already pay out the butt for HD on cable.

JunkyardDogg

01-17-05, 07:06 PM

I got done watching a movie, switched over to the OTA tuner, flipped to 29-3 to watch 'King of Queens' and WXIX was all messed up. The audio was coming in, but the video wasn't moving, had green lines going through it, and video scrowing lines like it was a bad video tape. So I switched over to analog to see if the problem was there. Nope. Looked normal. So I went back to DT, still clear audio, but video no moving, except when I went up to the next channel and back down, then it would advance to the next frame.

I don't want to jinx Cincinnati, but 2005 may be the year of HDTV problems from out OTA stations. With PSIP problems(WXIX-DT), stations with no PSIP(WSTR-DT), 'jaggies problem'(WCPO-DT), low bandwidth for HD(WCET-DT), and NO HD at all(WBQC).

Nitewatchman

01-17-05, 07:13 PM

Yeah, their encoder was spitting out some strange stuff during King of Queens ... Check it now. "Normal" video now on 29-3 for "Friends"....

Update 7:25pm : They're still working overtime at WXIX I see ... it's in "Stand by, we're working on it blank screen mode" presently ...

I wonder if their CE's wife was expecting him home for dinner tonight ....

WSTR-DT sends PSIP, it works with my receivers anyway. It remaps to 64-1. Their RF channel is 33.

JunkyardDogg

01-17-05, 07:22 PM

WSTR-DT doesn't show up as 64-1 anymore. After they went HD, it is just 33-1. Mitsubishi integrated tuner. Before HD, I got them on 64-1 remap, but not anymore. Great, now I will have to look into that.

psm0110

01-17-05, 08:22 PM

My problematic Sammy 151 gets WSTR-DT as 64.1 just fine...

bsherm

01-17-05, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by zekyl
Just to let everyone know, I posted a rather lengthy letter over at www.cincinnatihdtv.com from Raycom Media. The email was from someone pretty high up. He asked that I remove his name and email. It does not really shed a date on the FOX / TWC issue, but it seems like they are truly working on it.
I'll admit to not understanding Raycomm's issue. They broadcast for free, generate income through advertising, but want to charge TW to carry the free transmission. I am DEFINITELY ignorant on this situation, can others shed light... how does this work for the SD XIX, and the TW carrying the other networks both SD and HD?

Also, to D* and Voom users, do the HD services of these companies include the OTA receiver, or do you have to buy a seperate receiver? I could just cut out TW and XIX (pull Dayton's Fox afiliate).

microbob

01-17-05, 08:57 PM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
Yeah, their encoder was spitting out some strange stuff during King of Queens ... Check it now. "Normal" video now on 29-3 for "Friends"....

Update 7:25pm : They're still working overtime at WXIX I see ... it's in "Stand by, we're working on it blank screen mode" presently ...

Well,I can get them now on my Samsung sirt 150 as its currently mapped 19-0. However, I can no longer get them on my C34W37 intergrated HDTV. 29-3 is blank and now because its not mapped in as 19-1, my TV cannot see it because they have the PSIP configured wrong. 19-0 is the analog designator on my sets analog tuner. This is very strange. I hope they get it right someday.

zekyl

01-17-05, 09:34 PM

Originally posted by bsherm
I'll admit to not understanding Raycomm's issue. They broadcast for free, generate income through advertising, but want to charge TW to carry the free transmission. I am DEFINITELY ignorant on this situation, can others shed light... how does this work for the SD XIX, and the TW carrying the other networks both SD and HD?

Also, to D* and Voom users, do the HD services of these companies include the OTA receiver, or do you have to buy a seperate receiver? I could just cut out TW and XIX (pull Dayton's Fox afiliate).

bsherm,
I think the problem is this. Cost, they want to recoup some of their investment into the HD equipment. The HD equipment is very costly from what I understand. I too agree that they gain revenues from advertising, but I am also sure there is some sort of ongoing costs to send a signail over fiber optics to TWC to rebroadcast, other equipment and monthly fiber fees. I am not saying either side is 100% right, as I just wish they could finalize something so we could get the broadcasts. It would be great if someone out there could shed some light on numbers as I think then it would make much more sense than two large companies arguing over money. You know what I mean, am I making sense?

As for Voom, I understand they provide an OTA tuner and antenna. Not sure on the other satellite companies.

jim tressler

01-17-05, 09:50 PM

on my hughes htl-hd, 19-1 is fine.,. never lost it.. If I manually add 29 it FYI - automatically kicks it to 19

Itz me - your problem is with your lnb - terk made some bad triple lnb's - 25 is the model number i believe and when it gets to cold, it does not work. Terk will fix it free of charge.

jim

DrDon

01-17-05, 10:06 PM

JunkyardDogg

01-17-05, 10:08 PM

Well, WXIX is on 19 again, but it is 19.00. which seems to be a bit odd. I can receive it, but I understand how difficult it must be for those who have receivers that need the psip info. Hopefully it will work sometime.

Sea Ray

01-17-05, 10:39 PM

Nice letter Zekyl.

In it he said that Comcast is now providing WXIX-HD on their systems. Is that correct? Where in our area does Comcast serve?

He said that TWC wants their HD signal for free. Is that typical? Does anyone know if the major three networks are providing their HD signal to TWC for free?

Paul210

01-17-05, 11:00 PM

Whatever WXIX-DT has done, it doesn't remap to 29-3--it doesn't show up anywhere on my Zenith. I'm showing plenty of signal, just no lock.

zekyl

01-17-05, 11:09 PM

You know what, let me email a friend of mine over at WKRC and see if he can shed any light on the costs involved. Not sure if he'll be able to tell me anything, but it is worth a shot.

Nitewatchman

01-17-05, 11:16 PM

Paul, Same here. Zenith HDV420 receiver here lost the ability to decode anything from WXIX-DT, starting sometime just after 7pm. Just showing a lock on the signal on 29.1, with a "Dolby digital indicator" ... An observation ... Since it's a ATSC only receiver, It won't work if you input a "-0" after the major channel number, as it "thinks" that's where the analog station should go .. Probably won't let it "remap" to a x-0 minor channel number either.

DTC-100, with channel remapping turned off, of course still sees them just fine on 29.3 ....

From WSTR-DT tonight, I did notice what looked like might have been their encoder "dropping frames" every now and then(could have been Net related though), and one period of "blank screen" lasting a few minutes during HD Everwood. Also, there seemed to be some sort of problem with the audio compression -- certian frequencies especially (most noticable during some of the Music) had that overcompressed "scratchy" sound. Unfortunetly, Since the "main HT"(W/DTC-100) was being used for CBS HD from WKRC-DT, I was using the Zenith Box at the time, and therefore wasn't able to switch to Dayton to Check WBDT-DT, WB HD Dayton to see if any of that was happening to see if it might be Net related, because of WBDT-DT's current PSIP issue with the Zenith. Or, to check to see if they WB were doing DD 5.1 again, as I know WB had an DD 5.1 issue they were working on, and discontinued DD 5.1 until they could/can get it fixed.

What's next I wonder ....

tim99

01-18-05, 12:53 AM

As I mentioned in an earlier post I spoke to the engineer who was in charge of solving WXIX's PSIP issue and they had an analyzer coming in Monday afternoon. I expect folks are just seeing the result of their tinkering around with with it.

In all I got three phone calls from WXIX about this today all from different people. I expect they're seriously working on it now.

From what I understood when its working we'll see them on 19-1.

peace . . .

Paul210

01-18-05, 06:22 AM

Thanks for the info, Tim. Now if we could get them to send that analyzer over to WBDT in Dayton when they're done.... :rolleyes:

DrDon

01-18-05, 06:57 AM

Originally posted by Sea Ray
Does anyone know if the major three networks are providing their HD signal to TWC for free? First off, it's not the networks.. it's the owners of the local affiliates that strike the deal with the cablecos. Compensation takes many forms. For example, WCPO's parent company also owns HGTV, DIY, Food and the like. I can't speak for TWC, but I know WCPO-DT didn't show up on Insight until Insight agreed to pick up their subchannel, replacing the Weather Channel Local. So, now, Insight carries the full slate of Scripps networks and that weathercast subchannel (which has promos and commercials on it on cable).

Again, I can't speak for TWC, but Insight's HD locals are available with nothing more than basic cable and the HD box rental. No digital package or HD tier is required for the locals. Insight really doesn't make any more off the HD locals than the SD locals (though one could argue nearly all HD customers have the digital AND HD pack). Might be one reason Insight has been way ahead of TWC at securing HD locals, WXIX-DT notwithstanding. But Raycom may have set a fixed price for all its stations, regardless of the cableco involved. I don't really know.

Timing could be another issue. If the deal to carry the SD stations is far from up, there's not a lot of pressure on the cable company to cave. Once the SD deal is up for renewal, you can bet HD carriage will get bundled with it. No cable company wants to lose a major network.

ItzMe

01-18-05, 07:01 AM

Itz me - your problem is with your lnb - terk made some bad triple lnb's - 25 is the model number i believe and when it gets to cold, it does not work. Terk will fix it free of charge.

Jim, do you know where I can get more info on this problem? such as how to tell if I have a Terk, and how to get it fixed for free? This frustrates me because I just convinced DirecTV to send an installer out last week for free to add the additional line for my HD Tivo.

jim tressler

01-18-05, 09:49 AM

Try this ..

http://www.dbsforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5949&highlight=terk+cold

What you need to do it look at the triple lnb head and see who manufactured it.. They are replacing them for free

jim

DrDon

01-18-05, 11:22 AM

WXIX-DT is up on 29-1 at the moment (11:20 AM) and the Samsung's getting it.

UPDATE: The Samsung won't tune it if I come from another channel. I have to tune to a nonexistant channel, first, then enter "29." Weird

Nitewatchman

01-18-05, 11:52 AM

HDV420 is seeing them fine on 29-3 at 11:45am.

Update: Doc - Going to a RF channel with no signal(say 63) and then to 29-3 is working OK here presently -- but -- I couldn't repeat what I did again, but last night at one point, I went to WBDT-DT after first going to "something else"(don't recall which station but I actually thought it was WXIX-DT on 29-3 -in blank screen mode of course on the zenith at that time), and I saw WBDT-DT on 18-2 on the Zenith until I switched to something else and then back ...

Update #2: WXIX-DT currently properly remapping to 19-1 on the Zenith here at 12:10pm ...

Originally posted by tim99
I expect folks are just seeing the result of their tinkering around with with it.

Obviously.

Originally posted by Paul210

Now if we could get them to send that analyzer over to WBDT in Dayton when they're done....

I called them last week about it - Leaving a voice message for their CE's, I also emailed him personally, and emailed the "questions" address on their website. No response so far ... Must be busy up there .... Maybe they need some other viewers to contact them as well ...

Sea Ray

01-18-05, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by DrDon
First off, it's not the networks.. it's the owners of the local affiliates that strike the deal with the cablecos. Compensation takes many forms. For example, WCPO's parent company also owns HGTV, DIY, Food and the like. I can't speak for TWC, but I know WCPO-DT didn't show up on Insight until Insight agreed to pick up their subchannel, replacing the Weather Channel Local. So, now, Insight carries the full slate of Scripps networks and that weathercast subchannel (which has promos and commercials on it on cable).

That's interesting they'd drop the local weather channel in favor of channel 9's other subs because the local weather channel is run by the channel 9 weather team. They also advertise their news regularly on it so I would think WCPO would balk at a cable co dropping that.

Isn't it a law that cable companies have to carry the network's SD channels?

microbob

01-18-05, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
HDV420 is seeing them fine on 29-3 at 11:45am.

I'm now getting them on 19-1 on my Zenith tv and on the Samsung SIRT150.

DrDon

01-18-05, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by Sea Ray
That's interesting they'd drop the local weather channel in favor of channel 9's other subs because the local weather channel is run by the channel 9 weather team. They also advertise their news regularly on it so I would think WCPO would balk at a cable co dropping that.

Isn't it a law that cable companies have to carry the network's SD channels? They haven't decided if they can force subchannel must-carry, but it looks like they won't.

As for the other, the Channel 9 promos DO RUN on the cable. But the cable gets 2 minutes of time they can sell top and bottom. Doubt WCPO gives a crank about that, as the other 56 minutes constitutes a free WCPO promo. I'm sure for Scripps, that's more than enough compensation for carrying WCPO-DT's HD signal.

Showing PSIP functioning properly, here. 19-1 easily tunable, call letters show up ...and the clock appears to work. JINX ALERT: Can the PSIP program guide be far behind?

peteranton

01-18-05, 01:04 PM

Getting them on 19-1 with a Samy 360!

.....picture is pixelizing. Maybe they are not at full power?

Nitewatchman

01-18-05, 01:09 PM

EPG via PSIP shouldn't be too far behind ... I'm too afraid to turn PSIP on on the DTC-100 to find out, though, as it's a long process to "rescan" everything on both antennas --- HDV420 doesn't do program guides, PSIP Clock, or even Station ID via PSIP ... Channel remapping+the ratings/v-chip stuff/etc is the only thing PSIP stuff it does that is really "visable" to the user ..

Originally posted by Sea Ray
Isn't it a law that cable companies have to carry the network's SD channels?

No. There are basically 2 sets of "rules" for cable carriage rights for Full service(not LP) stations for their analog signal. Not networks - there are no cable carriage "rules" for broadcast networks - the affiliate(station) has the sole rights to the networks programming within their DMA. IF the station is a network owned and affiliated station - then obviously, the cableco is actually "negotiating" with the same folks that own the network. We don't Have any Network owned affiliates in Cincinnati or Dayton. Columbus has a couple, though. WCMH (NBC), and WWHO(Viacom/UPN - WWHO is a WB affiliate as well, btw)

With analog NTSC currently, A full service station can elect to use either the "Must Carry" rules, or the "Retransmission consent" rules.

With "Must Carry", in order to be eligible, the cableco head-end for the specific community involved/served by the cable company must be within the Grade B signal service area of the station involved -- Then, IF the station ASKS for must carry, the cableco must carry the signal IN that community.

With "retransmission consent", the cableco+the station work out a "deal", for retransmission rights for the cableco to carry the stations signal. The "particulars" of that deal are likely to remain private, between the cableco+the station(s). From what I can gather, the deal they are working on concerning WXIX(owned by Raycom) and TW is on a national level -- Involving multiple stations, DMAs, and probably HD from other networks besides just Fox - Raycomm doesn't just own Fox station.

With digital, currently -- A station can currently CHOOSE Must carry for EITHER its digital or analog signal, but not both. As Doc mentioned, only the "primary" program stream is required to be carried by the cableco via Must carry, although many broadcasters want them to change that to include all the "bits" from a station/all the program stremms/etc.

I believe Most commercial digital(HD) stations(any that I know of in this area) currently use retransmission consent.

It's a little "different" for PBS, as typically(at least it seems in this area) I think cableco's want as many digital services from the PBS stations as possible because of their "public service" obligations- or because those services are "in demand" from their customers(such as PBS Kids on TW, which comes from WCET-DT - They send PBS Kids OTA as well on one of their digital stations' subchannels if you didn't know).

Analog or digital -- This probably isn't allways true, but typically, for a station with programming that is in "high demand"(say CBS programming) that the cableco+it's subscribers WANT -- I'd think Obviously, that station is probably going to choose to use retransmission consent - work out a deal with the cableco instead of invoking must-carry. On the other hand, a station that just runs infomericals all the time is probably going to have to choose the "must carry" rules ...

William Smith

01-18-05, 01:32 PM

We are updating the channel map on WCVN-DT to drop the analog channel from the EPG.. I don't expect this to cause a problem but you never know...

William

DrDon

01-18-05, 01:41 PM

William..

I guess you can tell we'll certainly let you know ;)

tim99

01-18-05, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman

Obviously.

Obviously obvious to some, obviously not obvious to others.

It's been intermittent for me this past week so I sent some specific up and down times to them this morning. My H10 is getting them now on 19-1.

So like, hurray man!

peace . . .

tim99

01-18-05, 02:28 PM

Heh well we can sure enough tell you the kind of letter to write.

peace . . .

Originally posted by Paul210
Thanks for the info, Tim. Now if we could get them to send that analyzer over to WBDT in Dayton when they're done.... :rolleyes:

tim99

01-18-05, 03:02 PM

Message from our new best friend at WXIX.

Tim,

You should now be able to receive WXIX-DT, the problem was with our multiplexer not passing a couple of the PSIP tables.
We are not at 100%, the ETT tables that contain program information are not being inserted. This should not prevent you from receiving and decoding the signal.
I hope to have the final fix in the next few days.

Thanks

xxxxx

6speed

01-18-05, 03:03 PM

I'm at work,so is WXIX-DT working right again?

Nitewatchman

01-18-05, 03:22 PM

6speed,

Yes.

------

Paul/All

Since WBDT-DT PSIP issue appears to be fixed now as well(at 3:17pm, gettting them fine remapped to 26.1 as usual on Zenith), Next time I get enough "time" with the DTC-100, I'll turn "off air guides"(psip) on and see how everything is going with it. Guess I'll "lose" EPG for 54-0 - I allways thought that was pretty cool, but no problem .. I understand why it had to go, although I don't understand why the commission is going along some of "paths" they seem to be as of late ...

Paul210

01-18-05, 03:54 PM

The stars must be aligned. Everything seems to be coming together today: WXIX, WBDT, and now WHIO claims they found a fix for the audio sync issue.

Jinx alert! :)

Sea Ray

01-18-05, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by zekyl
Just to let everyone know, I posted a rather lengthy letter over at www.cincinnatihdtv.com from Raycom Media. The email was from someone pretty high up. He asked that I remove his name and email. It does not really shed a date on the FOX / TWC issue, but it seems like they are truly working on it.

Raycom makes it sound like channel 19-HD is currently available on Comcast cable when he states:

"We have already successfully concluded negotiations resulting in reasonable agreements with a number of other Cable operators across the country, including Comcast Cable, one of the nation's largest providers and a Cable operator who serves thousands of cable households in the Cincinnati viewing area. "

Is this true? Does any cable operator have WXIX-HD right now?

William Smith

01-18-05, 04:29 PM

The EITs contain the EPG information.. The ETT is the extended text that is the channel description...

ktarkington

01-18-05, 04:51 PM

I wish WCPO would work with us like WXIX has!!

Nitewatchman

01-18-05, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by Paul210
Jinx alert! :)

I think that only happens to me - like what happened the last time I sent WXIX GM/CE+Oliver a big thank you note for Fox HD+for doing such a great job getting it going so quickly, just a couple of days before the first ever Bengals FOX HD game ... The first OTA Bengals HD of any sort in fact ...

But yeah, I'd be careful with that as I guess you never know when that Murphy guy might be around "listening" ;) ....

Originally posted by Sea Ray
Does any cable operator have WXIX-HD right now?

It was a long time ago, but I believe it was reported in an earlier Cincy thread that at least at one time, Lebanon cable carried WXIX-DT (Fox Widescreen at the time).

I've also seen reports here : ( http://cincinnatihdtv.com/Mambo/indexforum.php?option=com_forum&Itemid=34&page=viewtopic&t=34&sid=0ba0185c3def3608b99720226f752ac8 )

and Here : ( http://www.hdtvpub.com )

That suscom in Dearborn, Co, In carries WXIX-DT/Fox HD. The report about Suscom on HDTVpub I believe came from one of their employees - their "Chief Technician" it says.

Update: oops. The URL I provided from hdtvpub.com earlier won't work work .. go to main hdtvpub page, enter your zip code in "Find Local DTV" section in upper RH sidebar, then, click on the link for the suscom report under "DTV from Local Cable co"s section to see it.

tbenson81

01-18-05, 07:28 PM

I have the pace 550 HD box through TW cable. All of my channels work great most of the time but sometimes I will get no picture or the video/audio will cut in and out. Currently I have no picture on channel 998. I check the diagnostics of the box and the SNR = 0. When the channel is cutting in and out, I notice the SNR bounces from 0 to 32. The channel works fine on both of my non-HD boxes. This is occuring when currently all of the other channels are working flawlessly. A few days ago, 998 worked fine and channel 905 had this problem. Can someone please explain how if my signal levels are good, why I continue to have problems with only 1 channel at a time. Is this some problem on my end or is TW not outputting enough juice on some of their channels at certain times?
Thanks for everyones insight/ advice in this matter.

MarcW

01-18-05, 08:17 PM

Well, I called TW tonight and they are still saying that it's coming in a couple of weeks. So I called a buddy of mine who is an installer with them and he'll take a look in the warehouse tomorrow. I'll keep everyone posted.

-MarcW

Originally posted by mbarcus
I just got back from vacation last night, and of course the first call I made this morning was to TWC to check on the availability of their HD DVR. They said they ARE now available in LIMITED quantities. You have to be on the waitlist and their telemarketing dept. will contact you when your name is up. I told them I have been on their "waitlist" for months and asked where I was on the list.....they said they had no way of checking. They also didn't know what model they were giving out either.

Nitewatchman

01-18-05, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by tbenson81
I have the pace 550 HD box through TW cable. All of my channels work great most of the time but sometimes I will get no picture or the video/audio will cut in and out. Currently I have no picture on channel 998. I check the diagnostics of the box and the SNR = 0. When the channel is cutting in and out, I notice the SNR bounces from 0 to 32. The channel works fine on both of my non-HD boxes. This is occuring when currently all of the other channels are working flawlessly. A few days ago, 998 worked fine and channel 905 had this problem. Can someone please explain how if my signal levels are good, why I continue to have problems with only 1 channel at a time. Is this some problem on my end or is TW not outputting enough juice on some of their channels at certain times?
Thanks for everyones insight/ advice in this matter.

I was going to ask you if the SNR reading was bouncing around ...

If you can't fix it by making sure your connections are all good/eliminate any splitters+check to see if that helps/etc as Doc mentioned ... You're probably going to have to have a TW Tech come out and check it out. I don't know, and I'm just "WAG" here, as I don't know a lot about cable systems ... but I'm wondering along the lines that it MIGHT be RFI that is getting in somewhere because of inadequete RF shielding somewhere/etc. I'd think it could be via the line itself, or could be "some sort" of RFI that for some reason is affecting an IF stage in the HD boxes which might explain why the non-HD box is working ok on 998.

Whether it's an issue on "your end", or TW's -- that's a hard question to "really" answer -- if it's RFI, it might depend upon where that RFI is coming from(it might be from something you didn't expect) and why it's causing the problem, although, in any case, you'd think they should take care of it for you or at least get you pointed in the right direction. Diagnosing this sort of thing can get really be "weird and difficult" at times ...

One thing that sort of stuck out as a "Red Flag" to me from your earlier post, where you posted the info from the diag screen ... It said you were looking at 585MHZ ... I assume that's ch 905 on TW ... Well, Cable uses the "same" set of frequencies as other "wireless" services Well, ... 584-590MHZ "just happens" to be TV UHF Channel 33, which is the channel WSTR-DT (WB HD Cincinnati) Transmits on. -- You don't happen to be anywhere near Finneytown do you? What frequency does it show for Ch 998? Perhaps that might help us too ..

Probably pretty slim chance, but if it is ingress from an outside RF source(licensed user/etc) using the same frequency that is getting into their cable lines it would be the cableco whom is responsible for fixing it. In which case, chances are, signals would probably also be "leaking" from the cable lines too and potentially causing interference to wireless services. Of course, with all the all the cold then warm and then cold weather -- I suppose there's more of a chance of this sort of stuff happening, and it could be as simple of a fix as a loose connection/etc somewhere ...

tbenson81

01-18-05, 11:14 PM

Thanks a lot Jeff - I appreciate your input. That really does actually help me have a better understanding of this problem.

The frequency of 998 is 675.00 and I live up in Montgomery. I have checked all my connections and even disconnected a line in my place that wasnt being used in order to boost the signal. This helped boost the signal on all channels from -7 to around -3 but the SNR just usually stays at 0 on channel 998. If I watch for about 5 minutes it will jump to 32 and then its back down to 0 for another 5 minutes.

You are probably right - its probably something that a tech would need to come out and diagnose though. I just dont know of much they could do and it seems like whatever they would have to do to fix this would be pretty extensive.

thanks again

Nitewatchman

01-19-05, 01:40 AM

Might not be all that extensive for them to fix, might end up being pretty simple .. and again, I was just doing some wild guessing -- could be something totally different. Defintely shouldn't be happening, though ... Keep us updated. I *do* seem to recall some folks having the same, or a very similar issue before(If I recall correctly, in that case it was 912/WKRC-DT that was effected at their location), and reporting about it on one of the Cincinnati threads .. but, this was a long time ago, and is probably in one of the older, archived threads referenced on first post of this thread - I *do* think they were able to get it fixed, just don't remember how, or what exactly was the cause(it wasn't RFI, I don't believe). I can't even begin to guess which thread, or to tell you what to look for to try to search for it.

On the RFI/WSTR-DT thoughts -- Probably just a "coincidence" of some sorts ... Montgomery is pretty far from WSTR, and, their directional antenna pattern for their digital station certianly isn't optimized to send a lot that way ... Oh, 675MHZ is part of "wireless" Channel 48(674-680MHZ) --- Where WCET 48 analog resides ... I doubt that's the issue, but if you just want to check for the heck of it ... WCET analog 48 goes off air at around 12:30am every night ...

Nitewatchman

01-19-05, 01:41 AM

Anyone happen to check out "Schubin's Monday Memo" ( http://www.digitaltelevision.com/mondaymemo/mlist/frm02164.html ) this week? Check out the paragraph(and associated links) about 1/4 of the way down that start with the heading " Non-decodable ATSC broadcasts" ....

Did Mr. Schubin ever work writing headlines for newspapers? LOL ... That's a perfect headline, really ... I'll have to remember that from now on when reading his weekly DTV reports ....

In more "strict" terms however -- I didn't realize WCPO-DT's weather channel was "non-decodable" for anyone out there ... I didn't see any mention in those threads that anything mentioned was, in fact "non-decodable" .. As I said, a perfect headline for a newspaper ;)

dr1394

01-19-05, 02:49 AM

In more "strict" terms however -- I didn't realize WCPO-DT's weather channel was "non-decodable" for anyone out there ...
Yes, he sensationalized the issue a bit. Actually, the topic comes up on the
opendtv list every so often. There seems to be two camps:

1) Folks like myself who contend that reduced resolutions are an extremely
useful tool for OTA digital television and that broadcasters should not only
be free to use them (legally, they already are, ATSC Table A3 was dropped
by the FCC), but that any decoder worth a damn will have no trouble
decoding them. The resolutions supported by almost all decoders are
352x480, 480x480, 544x480, 640x480, 704x480, 720x480, 1280x720,
1280x1080, 1440x1080 and 1920x1080. 528x480 is a little dicey since it's
not used for satellite (typically only on cable) and it's a little late to the
party.

2) Folks that claim if any receiver has any problem with any resolution other
than those in Table A3, then the whole concept of reduced resolutions (and
720x480) is broken and Table A3 should be adhered to no matter what.

It would be interesting to see what other receivers do with the WCPO-DT
528x480 weather channel. If many folks report flashes or other problems,
then is WCPO-DT doing the right thing or should they fall back to 704x480?

Ron

tim99

01-19-05, 04:10 AM

Oh perfect :)

Is this to say I should be seeing something on 9-2? All I get is the NWS audio. And I don't even get that unless I press the guide data key or menu key.

peace . . .

ClarkeR

01-19-05, 06:18 AM

I've always been able to get 9-2 on my SIR-T151, and now I can even get WXIX again.

I was reading the link posted by nightwatchman today and I noticed a comment that I think says that LG isn't planning on incorporating their 5th generation circuitry into a stand alone STB. If true, a lot of people are going to be disappointed.

jim tressler

01-19-05, 10:06 AM

9-2 runs wcpo's weather radar and forcast graphics - the audio is from the nws - so tim you are getting the audio ok, just no pictures...

while we are talking about problems, on my hughes guide it lists 12-1 and 12-2 / 12-2 always says "Radar" but if you tune to it - it shows whatever is on 12-1. Maybe just a duplicate in the guide? I doubt that they are broadcastig the channel twice..

jim

DrDon

01-19-05, 10:20 AM

Jim..

The 12-2 "Radar" guide only shows up with my EPG-driven box, which has a lot of other anomalies. The Samsung shows no such subchannel. 12-2 WAS a radar for a while.

hroeder

01-19-05, 11:11 AM

Re: Raycom and similar "negotiators"

These "far sighted" companies need to understand who the real customer is. The viewer is the customer. The analogy to the short story simply doesn't work.

As a viewer I choose cable. I also have chosen HD. Let's use an example. I like Vegas. I also like 24. Both were on at the same time Monday. I chose Vegas, because I could watch it in HD. I have a PVR. I could have chosen to record one in HD and watch the other in SD. I didn't do that because I want to watch the HD broadcast. Similarly I watched broadcasts of the NFL playoffs on KRC and CPO because they were in HD. I did not watch the Fox broadcasts. So XIX and Raycom lose me as a viewer. And their advertisers lose me as a viewer.

The move to HD is not some "service" being provided to viewers. It has been mandated. It is the new standard for American television. No, we aren't at the "drop dead" date, yet.

If I were Fox, I'd be seriously concerned with these local affiliates not cooperating the cable companies.

That said, I also believe that there should be competition available for cable services. While I could buy a satelitte package, the pecularity of my location in an apartment makes it less than an optimal choice.

Sea Ray

01-19-05, 12:12 PM

tbenson81

01-19-05, 12:33 PM

Hold the guide and the select button for about 5 seconds and you will hear a beep. Tune to the channel you want to see stats for and then turn to 611. It will show you all the details about the signal.

From what I have read on other boards - SNR should be 30 at the lowest but someone else probably has more info on that

jkeane

01-19-05, 12:45 PM

I apologize in advance for such a basic question.

Over the weekend I helped a friend set his new TV. The good news is that he's anything but an early adopter and is definitely a technophobe but got sold on HDTV while watching football at my house.

Here's the dumb question. He opted for Time Warner and got the Pace box but the installers did not leave any manual behind (I have D*TV) Is there any way to eliminate unwanted channels. I saw the "FAV" button on the remote but this works only in one direction. Also, who manufacturers the Pace box? Thanks.

Bubster

01-19-05, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by jkeane
Here's the dumb question. He opted for Time Warner and got the Pace box but the installers did not leave any manual behind (I have D*TV) Is there any way to eliminate unwanted channels. I saw the "FAV" button on the remote but this works only in one direction. Also, who manufacturers the Pace box? Thanks.

Pace 550 Manual (http://www.pacemicro.com/us/products/manuals/Pace_DC-550_Operators_Manual.pdf) (PDF, you may want to right click & "save as" or however your browser words it).

tim99

01-19-05, 02:01 PM

Thanks.

On 12-2 I just get a blank, although of course I get the same D* EPG data that says radar.

peace . . .

Originally posted by jim tressler
9-2 runs wcpo's weather radar and forcast graphics - the audio is from the nws - so tim you are getting the audio ok, just no pictures...

while we are talking about problems, on my hughes guide it lists 12-1 and 12-2 / 12-2 always says "Radar" but if you tune to it - it shows whatever is on 12-1. Maybe just a duplicate in the guide? I doubt that they are broadcastig the channel twice..

jim

mchuckp

01-19-05, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by jkeane
I apologize in advance for such a basic question.

Over the weekend I helped a friend set his new TV. The good news is that he's anything but an early adopter and is definitely a technophobe but got sold on HDTV while watching football at my house.

Here's the dumb question. He opted for Time Warner and got the Pace box but the installers did not leave any manual behind (I have D*TV) Is there any way to eliminate unwanted channels. I saw the "FAV" button on the remote but this works only in one direction. Also, who manufacturers the Pace box? Thanks.

You should have gotten a separate manual for the universal remote. It shows you how to do everything on it. From what I can tell, you cannot get rid of any channels on TW, which is pain! The favorites button are preset with News, Music, and something else which I don't remember. You are limited to 5 channels within a category and you access them by repeatedly pushing the button. The manaul gives instructions on how to change these to your own liking. It mentions this might not be possible with some carriers. I tried it several times and could not get it to do anything. So it is either not available or I'm an idiot. Either is likely.

I hate flipping through 100's of channels I will never watch. I came from Dish Network where I could have complete control of what I want to see in the menu. But TWC has better programming so I will just have to deal with it.

Oh well. Let me know if you discover anything that I have not about it.

Mike

jkeane

01-19-05, 02:36 PM

Thanks Mike and Bubster,

It's strange that TWC doesn't have the ability to delete the unwanted channels. I guess you get pretty good and scrolling through the channel guide.

Inundated

01-19-05, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by hroeder
The move to HD is not some "service" being provided to viewers. It has been mandated. It is the new standard for American television. No, we aren't at the "drop dead" date, yet.

While I agree with nearly everything else in your message...this needs to be clarified.

As far as I know, there's no federal mandate for high-definition TV. The mandate is for DIGITAL TV, which includes many HD standards, and also SD. You have at least one large sized network group - PAX TV - which will likely never go HD. They use their digital channels to squeeze in four SD subchannels.

I DO agree with your comments about networks like FOX and the fact that they should be concerned about this if their local affiliates are providing roadblocks to local cable systems picking the network up in HD. Where they own the affiliate, like here in Cleveland, they allow a national HD feed via DirecTV (which by the way, they basically also own, via Mr. Murdoch).

We have the same problem up here with Raycom and WOIO (CBS)/WUAB (UPN) and Time Warner Cable...and Adelphia, which serves my part of town.

Nitewatchman

01-19-05, 03:04 PM

Lots of comments and a pic ... Going "backwards" -- Lets see if I can do it in all in one post ...

Originally posted by DrDon
12-2 WAS a radar for a while.

I'm sure you'll recall that they also used that, once, to send Billy Graham Live at Paul Brown statium to prisoners in the area with I assume, ATSC receivers set up at the prisons/jails/etc ... Kudos to Billy Graham for being on the "cutting edge" of DTV ...

Anyway -- No sign here on either receiver of a 12-2, or 31-2/etc (on DTC-100 w/PSIP/remapping off) for a couple of years or so. So, am I correct in assuming the 12-2 some are getting is coming from D* EPG info, and not from WKRC-DT ?

----------------------

Originally posted by tim99
All I get is the NWS audio. And I don't even get that unless I press the guide data key or menu key.

Hmmm .. Do we have "non-decodable" issue here, or is it perhaps something else, perhaps involving D* guide info/integration with PSIP info coming from the station/etc ?

Just in case -- Is it like that all the time, or is it possible they just might not have been sending any video for a short time when you checked it? It was fine when I first checked it around 11 today, and, I certianly don't see it "down" very often -- last time I can think of that it was down was during their studio move last summer, when of course, even the transmitter was off air for a few days while they moved the STL/etc/etc ....

Also -- Any luck if you try to tune to the RF channel/MPEGII program stream number/etc? I.e. - 10-2/etc or some variation ...

Thanks.

I believe Tim is using a new H10 DirecTV branded receiver.

Originally posted by dr1394
There seems to be two camps:

For the most part .. I would tend to agree with the folks in your camp. I do know that I had read posts from the Station CE's on other threads about stations which have experimented with 1440x1080, and 1280x1080, from what I could tell anyway, their results seemed promising.

However -- If we are not just talking about 1 or 2 receiver models which there aren't many of, or were discontinued long ago/etc ... Whatever needs to be "done" to accomplish the task -- I think this stuff is going to have to work "right" for the average Joe. More of whom in the not to distant future are going to be buying inexpensive ~25" sets(and recording devices/etc) with integrated ATSC receivers inside, and hooking them up to their antennas ...

Different issue -- but similiar "grey areas" : I've also heard many folks saying that it isn't a good idea for stations to switch resolutions "on the fly" on any given service because some decoders will lock up, freeze up, have problems/etc/etc/etc. Well, it just so happens that, one of our local stations here(WCVN-DT - one of KET's(PBS "affilate") statewide(KY) transmitters) Switches "on the fly" from 480i to 720p every night for prime time(at either 7pm or 8pm) for PBS HD channel on one of their services(KET4 - 54-4 is the PSIP remapped subchannel from WCVN-DT), then back to 480i(cpb/annenburg) afterwards. On both of my decoders here(Zenith HDV420/DTC-100) It's a seemless switch -- everytime I've looked. There are no "pauses", freezes/etc with audio or video -- if you blinked when it happened - you would miss it. I don't know how other receivers "behave", but I haven't seen any reports of any problems - This service is carried by a number of cablecos in the area, , so the decoders the cable subs are using seem to be working with it as well. So It seems to me, the capability to switch resolutions is/would also be quite useful ....

Back to what we are talking about ... I do want to clarify some things concerning my previous comments concerning WCPO-DT's weather service. Firstly -- I want to make it clear that I was only reporting about the "flashing bars"/etc -- NOT complaining - No big deal -- but -- While I'm sure I've done that on occasion here, as a general rule, that is not what I'm here for. Secondly -- I want to emphacize -- The slightly improper decoding the Zenith HDV420 is doing in this particular circumstance IS a complete non-issue for me, especially given the content involved. This is because :

#1: The "flashing bars" are ONLY present if I use the decoder's "Wide" or "Zoom" "video formatting" settings. "Wide", of course, distorts the AR on a 16x9 display, and "Zoom" crops out a portion of top+bottom of frame so it will "fit" 16x9. If I view the "entire" frame(see attached screenshot), with it's "normal" mode in proper AR -- there is NO problem whatsoever -- It looks like this is happening because the receiver is cropping out a small portion of the edges during its "sidebar" insertion, obviously getting rid of the "flashing bars". To demonstrate, Digital camera screenshot attached. Sorry about the especially poor quality -- The room was quite dark+I wanted for the entire front of display to show up, so what was happening would appear "obvious". It appears that The colors also didn't quite get captured right, and there there is no "blurry" stuff as there appears to be ...

#2: The "flashing bars" are completely hidden by about 3% overscan on the display. Since I use approx 4% overscan for other reasons -- obviously, it isn't a problem.

Now -- I might feel differently if this was "full motion video", and the flashing bars were "actually visable" If I view it as "proper" 4x3(which is the only way I would be "viewing it" If it was something I actually wanted to watch) or, if it was apparent(to my eyes) that AR was visably distorted.

Originally posted by dr1394
If many folks report flashes or other problems,
then is WCPO-DT doing the right thing or should they fall back to 704x480?

That's a tough one ...

This is what I think ..In this case .. especially given the nature of the content provided via their weather service -- Unless there are receivers which really can't decode it -- or, if there are decoding problems which are intolerable to more than a couple of folks : I think WCPO is doing the right thing at 528x480 ...352x480 doesn't seem like all that bad of an idea either, although I'd want to see what it looks like ... The Maps/graphics/etc do look pretty good as is. What has been going on with their "other" digital service is another matter however ...

I can tell you, I've been monitoring the Cincinnati threads for well over 3 years now, and probably read most of the posts previous to that from this area. I don't recall anyone(including me, even though I knew something a little odd was up with the zenith decoder) ever mentioning it before, if that says anything. The report from Tim99 is certianly the first report I've heard of it potentially being non-decodable by any receiver.

BTW -- When I get time, I do occasionlly browse OpenDTV forum among other DTV "watering holes" ... I hadn't noticed your Ham call before though ... That's a good one !

zekyl

01-19-05, 06:31 PM

jkeane,
I use the Favorties Feature as my ability to flip channels and going through the guide. You can have as many favorite channels as there are channels as far as I know. Sure it does not go backwards, but does save time flipping through those unwanted channels. Hope that helps.

tim99

01-19-05, 06:32 PM

It's like that all the time. I find the monotone of NWS comforting :)

Based on your insight here is what I have found out so far.

If I use the guide to select the channel - no audio no video. If I bring up the guide again I get audio the second I hit the button.

If I use the channel up/down to hit the channel in rotation - audio no video.

If I key in 9-2 on my remote (I assume this is what you meant by "tune to the RF channel/MPEGII program stream number"). I get audio no video.

I've never seen video ever. In fact I just assumed it was NWS audio only.

So as far as user metrics go I really like the H10 but it seems to be problematic.

peace . . .

Originally posted by Nitewatchman

Hmmm .. Do we have "non-decodable" issue here, or is it perhaps something else, perhaps involving D* guide info/integration with PSIP info coming from the station/etc ?

Just in case -- Is it like that all the time, or is it possible they just might not have been sending any video for a short time when you checked it? It was fine when I first checked it around 11 today, and, I certianly don't see it "down" very often -- last time I can think of that it was down was during their studio move last summer, when of course, even the transmitter was off air for a few days while they moved the STL/etc/etc ....

Also -- Any luck if you try to tune to the RF channel/MPEGII program stream number/etc? I.e. - 10-2/etc or some variation ...

Thanks.

I believe Tim is using a new H10 DirecTV branded receiver.

atomicmike

01-19-05, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by tbenson81
I have checked all my connections and even disconnected a line in my place that wasnt being used in order to boost the signal. This helped boost the signal on all channels from -7 to around -3 but the SNR just usually stays at 0 on channel 998. If I watch for about 5 minutes it will jump to 32 and then its back down to 0 for another 5 minutes.

Out of curiosity, when you disconnected the unused drop, did you put a terminator on the unused tap on the splitter? Unterminated taps almost always lead to ingress/egress, which if strong enough could possibly cause the type of problems you are seeing.

If you don't have any terminators lying around (and really, who does), don't sweat it. The TWC tech should be smart enough to put them on for you, or give you a different splitter with fewer taps.

psm0110

01-19-05, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by Inundated
While I agree with nearly everything else in your message...this needs to be clarified.

As far as I know, there's no federal mandate for high-definition TV. The mandate is for DIGITAL TV, which includes many HD standards, and also SD. You have at least one large sized network group - PAX TV - which will likely never go HD. They use their digital channels to squeeze in four SD subchannels.

Beat me to it. However, let me further expand on this. If you analyze how must carry rules, these kinds of negotiations, and recent decisions on the Broadcast Flag play together -- all HD content in the future, cable/OTA/DBS, will be premium subscription based content. You pay a premium to get HD on cable (does anyone here get unencrypted local stations via QAM?), soon you will have to for OTA as well (unless you already have a tuner). So, in light of that trend, broadcasters charging cable co's for HDTV is simple economics, there is no reason why a local broadcaster should give up their premium content for free. And as devil's advocate, the case that they've invested significant cash in their equipment and look to recoup some of it from cable is understandable.

That said if I ever have to pay for my HDTV OTA then I'll be reading alot more. I plan on at least buying one OTA tuner card for my PC this year, if not another for my Mac and a new STB too... just to get pre-flag hardware, which is theoretically grandfathered.

Nitewatchman

01-19-05, 08:01 PM

Originally posted by tim99
If I key in 9-2 on my remote (I assume this is what you meant by "tune to the RF channel/MPEGII program stream number"). I get audio no video.

No, I meant 10-2 if your receiver lets yo do that. Channel 10(192-198MHZ) is the actual RF(short for "Radio Frequency" - in other words - the actual signal you get with your antenna from them) channel WCPO-DT transmits on - Channel 9 is the virtual Major channel # it remaps to on most receivers. the -2 is the minor channel(subchannel) number(I probably shouldn't have said MPEGII program stream #, sorry) used by their weather service, and Channel 9 is the actual channel WCPO 9(186~192MHZ) Analog transmits on. You can't actually have two real "signals"(Whether they be ATSC(DTV) or NTSC) on the Same actual , RF channel in the same area, otherwise they would interfere with each other ...

Just like WXIX-DT actually transmits it's signal on 29, and it remaps(well now) to 19.1. First post of this thread has info on the actual channel #'s and virtual channel numbers for all the Cincinnati stations.

You'd think if you were getting the audio stream on 9-2, you'd get the video too, but I'd try 10-2 just in case ...

MarcW

01-19-05, 08:29 PM

My buddy just dropped off a HD DVR at my house. I'm sad to say that it is an 8000HD not as I had hoped the 8300. Having some trouble setting the darn thing up. Seems the s-video only works when the box is setup for 480i only. The minute I enable 1080i i have to use component . Which wouldn't be so bad if my TV wouldn't lock on full. The stretch mode the 8000HD provides is in one word pathetic. Will post later about any other quirks I find.

-MarcW

mchuckp

01-19-05, 09:16 PM

Originally posted by MarcW
My buddy just dropped off a HD DVR at my house. I'm sad to say that it is an 8000HD not as I had hoped the 8300. Having some trouble setting the darn thing up. Seems the s-video only works when the box is setup for 480i only. The minute I enable 1080i i have to use component . Which wouldn't be so bad if my TV wouldn't lock on full. The stretch mode the 8000HD provides is in one word pathetic. Will post later about any other quirks I find.

-MarcW

So is the DVI inactive on it?

Dixon4UK

01-19-05, 09:21 PM

Flipping between the UK game and American Idol (for the wife) and I know its supposed to be in HD (was last night and its marked HD on the guide). Anybody know what the number is to call into the control room?

Thanks,

Dixon

6speed

01-19-05, 09:25 PM

Dixon,it got the Bearcat bounce,so it's not live from the network.WKRC does this all the time on Sunday nights after football and 60 Minutes.

Dixon4UK

01-19-05, 09:34 PM

Originally posted by 6speed
Dixon,it got the Bearcat bounce,so it's not live from the network.WKRC does this all the time on Sunday nights after football and 60 Minutes.

6speed

DOH! I should have known better. I didn't even think about the Bearcat game. Thanks for the quick response.

MarcW

01-19-05, 11:34 PM

No idea. I don't have a DVI port on my TV.

Originally posted by mchuckp
So is the DVI inactive on it?

dr1394

01-20-05, 12:19 AM

BTW -- When I get time, I do occasionlly browse OpenDTV forum among other DTV "watering holes" ... I hadn't noticed your Ham call before though ... That's a good one !
Actually, K6MPG is my previous callsign. When the 20 WPM Morse code
requirement for Extra class was dropped, I upgraded so that I could get a
1x2. I tried for K6RE first, but lost out to another "R.E.". who filed more
applications than I did. My current callsign is W6RZ (Radio Zombie). I do
6-meter (50 MHz) SSB at home and VHF/UHF contesting as part of a
mountain-top multi-op team.

Now for something more on topic. I've decided to write a PSIP dump utility
for folks that can capture OTA DTV Transport Streams. It's not finished yet,
but I've got a big chunk working. Here's a dump of WCPO-DT's PSIP.

MGT tables defined = 11

MGT table type = 0x0000
MGT table type pid = 0x1ffb
MGT table type version = 0x02
MGT table bytes = 0x000000a6
MGT table desc bytes = 0x0000

MGT table type = 0x0200
MGT table type pid = 0x1e02
MGT table type version = 0x1e
MGT table bytes = 0x00000090
MGT table desc bytes = 0x0000

MGT table type = 0x0201
MGT table type pid = 0x1e03
MGT table type version = 0x1f
MGT table bytes = 0x00000090
MGT table desc bytes = 0x0000

MGT table type = 0x0202
MGT table type pid = 0x1e00
MGT table type version = 0x1f
MGT table bytes = 0x00000090
MGT table desc bytes = 0x0000

MGT table type = 0x0004
MGT table type pid = 0x1e80
MGT table type version = 0x02
MGT table bytes = 0x00000043
MGT table desc bytes = 0x0000

MGT table type = 0x0203
MGT table type pid = 0x1e01
MGT table type version = 0x1f
MGT table bytes = 0x00000090
MGT table desc bytes = 0x0000

MGT table type = 0x0100
MGT table type pid = 0x1d02
MGT table type version = 0x1c
MGT table bytes = 0x000007d0
MGT table desc bytes = 0x0000

MGT table type = 0x0101
MGT table type pid = 0x1d03
MGT table type version = 0x1c
MGT table bytes = 0x000008a0
MGT table desc bytes = 0x0000

MGT table type = 0x0301
MGT table type pid = 0x1ffb
MGT table type version = 0x02
MGT table bytes = 0x000003e0
MGT table desc bytes = 0x0000

MGT table type = 0x0102
MGT table type pid = 0x1d00
MGT table type version = 0x1c
MGT table bytes = 0x000008a0
MGT table desc bytes = 0x0000

MGT table type = 0x0103
MGT table type pid = 0x1d01
MGT table type version = 0x1c
MGT table bytes = 0x000008a0
MGT table desc bytes = 0x0000

MGT desc bytes = 0x0000

TVCT number of channels = 2

TVCT short name = WCPO-HD
TVCT channel number = 9.1
TVCT modulation mode = 0x04
TVCT channel TSID = 0x08c5
TVCT program number = 0x0001
TVCT service type = 0x0002
TVCT source id = 0x0001
TVCT desc bytes = 0x002b

TVCT short name = WCPO-SD
TVCT channel number = 9.2
TVCT modulation mode = 0x04
TVCT channel TSID = 0x08c5
TVCT program number = 0x0002
TVCT service type = 0x0002
TVCT source id = 0x0002
TVCT desc bytes = 0x002b

TVCT additional desc bytes = 0x0000

EIT3 events defined = 2

EIT event id = 0x048b
EIT start time = 0x2f092e3d
EIT length in seconds = 0x02a30
EIT title length = 0x17
Weather Tracker
EIT desc bytes = 0x0013

EIT event id = 0x050c
EIT start time = 0x2f09586d
EIT length in seconds = 0x02a30
EIT title length = 0x17
Weather Tracker
EIT desc bytes = 0x0013

EIT2 events defined = 2

EIT event id = 0x040a
EIT start time = 0x2f09040d
EIT length in seconds = 0x02a30
EIT title length = 0x17
Weather Tracker
EIT desc bytes = 0x0013

EIT event id = 0x048b
EIT start time = 0x2f092e3d
EIT length in seconds = 0x02a30
EIT title length = 0x17
Weather Tracker
EIT desc bytes = 0x0013

EIT0 events defined = 2

EIT event id = 0x0308
EIT start time = 0x2f08afad
EIT length in seconds = 0x02a30
EIT title length = 0x17
Weather Tracker
EIT desc bytes = 0x0013

EIT event id = 0x0389
EIT start time = 0x2f08d9dd
EIT length in seconds = 0x02a30
EIT title length = 0x17
Weather Tracker
EIT desc bytes = 0x0013

EIT1 events defined = 2

EIT event id = 0x0389
EIT start time = 0x2f08d9dd
EIT length in seconds = 0x02a30
EIT title length = 0x17
Weather Tracker
EIT desc bytes = 0x0013

EIT event id = 0x040a
EIT start time = 0x2f09040d
EIT length in seconds = 0x02a30
EIT title length = 0x17
Weather Tracker
EIT desc bytes = 0x0013

Ron

Inundated

01-20-05, 01:41 AM

Originally posted by psm0110
Beat me to it. However, let me further expand on this. If you analyze how must carry rules, these kinds of negotiations, and recent decisions on the Broadcast Flag play together -- all HD content in the future, cable/OTA/DBS, will be premium subscription based content. You pay a premium to get HD on cable (does anyone here get unencrypted local stations via QAM?), soon you will have to for OTA as well (unless you already have a tuner).

I don't see that happening, soon at least. For one, where's the authorization hardware? As far as I know, no OTA box out there today has any hardware that would allow a station to shut off HD feeds to OTA-only viewers. And I haven't seen any announcements of same.

For another, I do believe the local stations are REQUIRED to be in the clear on HD feeds (via QAM, I presume, or whatever standard the cable company is using) by federal law. I haven't tried it, but I am pretty sure all the local systems up here, including my own much maligned provider Adelphia, have all the OTA HD network stations in the clear with QAM. The "Plus" tiers, the various extra HD cable networks, etc., are obviously blocked without a box, but the network/OTA stations can't be, as far as I understand.

I hope the above doesn't come true, but I worry it WILL happen...just not anytime in the NEAR future.

Nitewatchman

01-20-05, 02:20 AM

Originally posted by dr1394

Now for something more on topic. I've decided to write a PSIP dump utility
for folks that can capture OTA DTV Transport Streams. It's not finished yet,
but I've got a big chunk working. Here's a dump of WCPO-DT's PSIP.

Hmm ... I don't seem to be seeing anything at or above the now required 0x0030 or above for PID values related to the program streams .....

I'm trying to figure out if I can tell something here about that with RCA DTC-100. As well. On another thread, another poster noticed from some of my reports of what I was getting that it looked like I probably can ... but I'd like to make sure. One "nice thing" about DTC-100 is that I can turn a lot of the PSIP stuff off via it's "Off air guides" function -- Which not only "turns off" EPG via PSIP, but also turns off channel remapping, Date/Time info via PSIP/etc .....

Recently, some stations in the area which have recently changed their PSIP to apparently meet the new FCC requirements now have their first minor channel numbers/subchannels now showing up as starting out at "x-3" on DTC-100 with the PSIP stuff turned off, Instead of what was usually X-2, or in some cases X-1 previously -- Those all "remap" to X-1 of course, and WCVN-DT and the other KET's(when I can get them) have been like this for a long time(x-3 for the first subchannel, not remapped) - as long as I can remember, actually.

So, I'm trying to detirmine if I can be sure that the first subchannel showing up as "x-3" directly denotes that those stations now have the PID(s) for their "first" program stream set at hex 30 ... And -- Does that perhaps also directly "relate" to the line from the WCPO PSIP dump you provided, above : "TVCT program number = 0x0001", in WCPO-DT's case, or should I be looking at one of the other values that are labled PID .....

I turned on the PSIP stuff on DTC-100 a couple hours ago to see what I got from the locals presently, I'll post about it soon, although I think I need to go read my eyelids at this point ...

BTW the 720p service from WCPO-DT is still showing up as 10-1 "not remapped" on DTC-100 ...

Originally posted by dr1394
I do 6-meter (50 MHz) SSB at home and VHF/UHF contesting as part of a
mountain-top multi-op team.
Ron

I know a fellow that was into the latter, as well as other VHF fun when he lived in Colorado .. He told me an interesting story about a Low power, "solar powered" 2 meter repeater they had put on a high peak in the Front Range - He said you could could easily key the thing up from a car well over 300 miles from the plains states .... Turned out that NPS didn't end up liking it though, and ended up making them get it out of there ...

I'm not really active these days, who knows when I'll pick up a "bug" again to get on the air - still enjoy tuning around on HF bands occaisionally ... TV/DTV DX'ing via tropo/E-skip is probably my biggest "sort of" related hobby currently. Given all the local blow torch signals I have to deal with -- It should get real fun again around here after analog shut off ... I used to enjoy working CW contacts on the HF bands and some 10M SSB - had a lot of fun with the latter in the late 80's ...

Man, It is really easy to go off topic here ....

tim99

01-20-05, 04:33 AM

Thanks for the mini-lesson, they are appreciated.

If I tune 10-2 on my receiver I get 'channel not available' and it bounces me back to the previous channel. I don't think my receiver is open to anything but the remapped channels.

You mentioned something earlier about 12-2 on D*. In the D* guide it shows 12-2 as 'Radar'. The receiver finds it on a channel scan and it gets a good signal but of course it's blank.

Another thing about D* EPG is that it always shows 48-x on overnight with a complete schedule. Late at night I get 'signal not found' message which I assume means they are just off the air in the wee hours.

peace . . .

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
No, I meant 10-2 if your receiver lets yo do that. Channel 10(192-198MHZ) is the actual RF(short for "Radio Frequency" - in other words - the actual signal you get with your antenna from them) channel WCPO-DT transmits on - Channel 9 is the virtual Major channel # it remaps to on most receivers. the -2 is the minor channel(subchannel) number(I probably shouldn't have said MPEGII program stream #, sorry) used by their weather service, and Channel 9 is the actual channel WCPO 9(186~192MHZ) Analog transmits on. You can't actually have two real "signals"(Whether they be ATSC(DTV) or NTSC) on the Same actual , RF channel in the same area, otherwise they would interfere with each other ...

Just like WXIX-DT actually transmits it's signal on 29, and it remaps(well now) to 19.1. First post of this thread has info on the actual channel #'s and virtual channel numbers for all the Cincinnati stations.

You'd think if you were getting the audio stream on 9-2, you'd get the video too, but I'd try 10-2 just in case ...

dr1394

01-20-05, 07:16 AM

Hmm ... I don't seem to be seeing anything at or above the now required 0x0030 or above for PID values related to the program streams .....
WCPO-DT hasn't changed to using PID's above 0x30 yet. They are still using
PID's 0x10, 0x11, 0x14, 0x20, 0x21 and 0x24.

The next thing to add to the PSIP dumper is parsing of the (mandatory)
Service Location Descriptor in the TVCT. This would have shown the PID's
listed above.

Other things to add:

1) ETT parsing (the WCPO-DT PSIP has ETT's)

2) Channel ETT parsing.

3) Convert EIT start time to Month/Day/Year

4) Convert EIT length in seconds to hours/mins/secs

5) For any item that's a table look-up, print the table entry. For example,
MGT table type = 0x0004 (Channel ETT)
TVCT modulation mode = 0x04 (ATSC 8-VSB)
TVCT service type = 0x0002 (ATSC_digital_television)

6) System Time Table (STT) parsing

I just bought a MyHD card to capture my local DTV stations PSIP. My Samsung
T-165 strips the PSIP on it's 1394 port output, so it's not too useful for PSIP
testing.

Ron

mchuckp

01-20-05, 08:22 AM

Originally posted by MarcW
No idea. I don't have a DVI port on my TV.

When you get it all up and running, could you post back your impressions of the box? Did you have an HD box before this one? If so, which one and do you think the SA 8000 is comparable in quality.

From my minimal research online, it seems that the 8000 is not that great of a box. This is probably pretty obvious since most providers aren't using it.

I was told by a CSR about a month ago that one of their concerns on the box they were beta testing was that the hard drive was to small for what they wanted. I thought I remember reading the SA8000 HD could only hold 18 hours of HD content. I'm wondering if they somehow got some revamped 8000's that are better than others out there or did they just say screw it and decided to use them anyway. Damn I wish they got the 8300!

I've been using the Pace 550 and it is a pretty decent box. It is going to be tough for me to give it up if the PQ is markedly worse on the 8000.

Oh well, can't get to bent out of shape until I at least get the thing hooked up.

I would appreciate your thoughts on it though when you do get a chance.

6speed

01-20-05, 08:31 AM

Interesting article in today's Enquirer about TWC and WXIX negotiations.It doesn't look good for an agreement in time for the Super Bowl.

Dimitriz

01-20-05, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by 6speed
Interesting article in today's Enquirer about TWC and WXIX negotiations.It doesn't look good for an agreement in time for the Super Bowl.

I got 1 word for them all "PATHETIC".

2 years of negotiations and nothing.

Can anyone recommend me an OTA turner from CircuitCity to buy?
They have like 3 of them....
http://www.circuitcity.com/rpsm/catOid/-12885/Ntk/All/Ntt/tuner/rpem/ccd/categorylist.do

Some of them list with ATSC/QAM tuner, but dont all of them support that?
I will always have calbe internet, so at some point when Fox will be on-board I will just plug the cable vs. antenna, but OTA would still be usefull..

hroeder

01-20-05, 09:14 AM

Just thought I'd post this info which might indicate why some of us don't see as many jaggies:

The Hitachi 51" RPT HDTV monitor has a dot pitch of 0.51mm.
The Hitachi LCD RP 50" I'm using has a dot pitch of 0.098mm.

So it could be the jaggies are there. But at 5 times smaller. . .they just aren't as noticeable.

By the way both Lost and Alias had a lot of breaking up last night. And for the third straight episode I fell asleep during Alias. Jennifer is still as cute, the story line has just fallen. . .

hroeder

01-20-05, 09:36 AM

Sent this to askfox@foxinc.com:

Just thought Fox should know that many of us will not watch the SuperBowl on SuperBowl Sunday because the owner of local affiliate WXIX, Raycom, continues to not make broadcasts available in High Definition over our local cable systems, Time Warner and Insight.

Personally, I've made a choice not to watch Fox programing until such time as I can watch it in high definition. So when there's a choice between 24 and Vegas, I choose Vegas, because I can watch it in High Definitiion.

All those advertisers on SuperBowl Sunday. . .which we could all watch last year. . .but won't watch this year. Hummm. . ..

By the way, Raycom's two largest markets are Cleveland and Cincinnati.

mchuckp

01-20-05, 09:40 AM

Here is a link to the Cincy Enquirer article about the FOX HD negotiations between TWC and Raycom.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050120/BIZ01/501200320

This makes me want to write a letter to FOX directly expressing my frustrations and how they should be upset since they are losing viewers by not having HD here in Cincinnati on TWC. It probably wouldn't get past the mail room though.

I personally rarely ever see what is even on FOX unless it is a show that I know I want to see before hand. Since it isn't HD, I never scroll through the channel. I'll tune into FOX for Arrested Development and 24. If the channel was in HD, I would probably watch more of their shows because of that.

Oh well.

mchuckp

01-20-05, 10:22 AM

HRoeder, thanks for the email address at fox. Below is a message I sent to them. Maybe if some other people send messages as well, it might help a bit. Can't hurt to try. I think my views expressed are similar to others. Feel free to paraphrase any part of it if anyone would like to send them something as well.

askfox@foxinc.com

I just wanted to write and express my frustrations with your affiliate in Cincinnati, OH. For 2 years now, Raycom and Time Warner Cable have been trying to strike a deal to allow TWC Cincinati to broadcast FOX in HD. I kept hoping it would happen soon since the Super Bowl is coming in a few weeks. I just read an article in our local paper, The Cincinnati Enquirer, that basically says that a deal has not been reached and we won't be getting the Super Bowl in HD.

I was hoping contacting FOX directly may help push the issue. FOX is losing quite a few customers here in Cincinnati every night due to not having HD content via cable systems. All the other major networks are available here on cable. I personally never go to FOX because it is not in HD. I tune into Arrested Development and 24 every week because I really like those shows. Other than that, I never even bother to see what is on because I would rather watch something on the other networks in HD.

As far as us not getting the Super Bowl in HD, this is huge for many people here, I am not much of a football fan. However, because of all the great commercials and the fact that it would be HD programming, I would have watched the Super Bowl. However, now I have no desire to watch it and will tune into see what the other networks are offering.

I know that the deal is between Raycom and Time Warner Cable, but it obviously effects you directly since you have national advertisers on your programs that are not reaching all of the intended customers. I know we are note alone with issues like this here in Cincinnati. I'm sure many other cities with local affiliates are dealing with the same issue.

For your sake and for mine, I hope you can discuss this matter with Raycom and get some sort of deal settled, so we can all be happy. You get your advertisements watched and I get your great programming.

Here is a link to the article in our local paper that is upsetting quite a few people in our area about the deal.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050120/BIZ01/501200320

Thanks for your time and attention,
Mike Pennington
Time Warner Cable Customer
Cincinnati, OH

Sea Ray

01-20-05, 10:53 AM

Nice to see the Enquirer is keeping the pressure on these two sides to reach a deal.

An aside to the deal, someone mentioned in this article that an advantage to HD is that you can see all 22 players on the field at once. I disagree with this. You can rarely see all 22 players at once yet I've seen that written before. What do guys think? How often can you count all 11 defensive players on the screen at once?

zekyl

01-20-05, 11:14 AM

As far as OTA Tuners go, if you want to purchase one, I would look at the Samsung SIR-T151 and get it off eBay. That is what I did. I will be selling mine once I can get FOX and WB64 over TWC.

I have emailed many people concerning this issue. I even emailed the president of Raycom Media and well as a lot of local folks. I hope it gets resolved soon.

hroeder

01-20-05, 12:25 PM

Sea Ray,

There are certain shots when you can see the full field. Love the end zone shot that CBS or ABC uses on punts and kickoffs. The one thing I've really noticed with the NFL is that you see players' faces much more often than in SD.

tbenson81

01-20-05, 12:34 PM

Atomic Mike

- Thanks for the input, I acutally replaced a 4 way splitter that splits all the connections with a 3 way splittler that I was give by TW and that didnt help at all. Since my signal seems to be good, I am convinced that my pace 550 box is going bad.

MChuckp

- Very nice letter to fox. I may sum up what you said and write one of my own. Nice work playin them off the other networks.

Sea Ray

- I think they are just alluding to the fact that it is broadcasted in 16:9 with the 22 player comment.

CPanther95

01-20-05, 12:40 PM

Is anyone writing letters to TW? According to the article, Adelphia was able to come to terms with your FOX affiliate.

Sea Ray

01-20-05, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by tbenson81
Sea Ray

- I think they are just alluding to the fact that it is broadcasted in 16:9 with the 22 player comment.

That's exactly what they're referring to but it really doesn't show more players. A quick way to check this is to do a PIP while you're watching something in HD. You'll rarely see more players in your HD screen than your PIP.

That said, I love HD for football but that bit about seeing all 22 guys is a misnomer.

Nitewatchman

01-20-05, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by tim99
Another thing about D* EPG is that it always shows 48-x on overnight with a complete schedule. Late at night I get 'signal not found' message which I assume means they are just off the air in the wee hours.

peace . . .

That's correct -- WCET-DT 34 (48-x remap) on air hours are approx. 8~9am to 11pm daily - HD/48-1 is there from 7pm~11pm nightly. WCET 48 analog on air hours are from about 7am(I think) to about 12:30am. All other Dayton/Cincinnati DTV(and analog) stations are on air 24/7.

Evidently, TW gets WCET via fiber 24/7. I don't know if they stay in "HD mode" after 11pm for them. WPTD-DT Dayton(unlike their sister station WPTO-DT which offers completely different programming services), However offers PBS HD channel OTA nightly 6pm~6am, their in 4 channel SD multicast mode 6am~6pm.

Nitewatchman

01-20-05, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by hroeder
So it could be the jaggies are there. But at 5 times smaller. . .they just aren't as noticeable.

I'm Just curious .. Since they are not actually sending HD, and that what they are sending is being downsampled before encoding at 1280x720, the effective resolution being 1280x360 -- Is that then, NOT noticable because of the finer dot pitch ?

I don't remember what the dot pitch is on my "best" HD display(38" 16x9 direct View CRT). Something in the range of .5~.7mm If I recall correctly. I do recall that The display itself is able to actually "display"/"resolve" 1280x1080, but, because of whatever the dot pitch is the Max the "eye" would be able to tell would be about 800 lines of horizontal resolution ....

rcweiss

01-20-05, 01:05 PM

I sent an email to Glenn Britt of corporate TW letting him know about the publicity TW is getting concerning the super bowl hd coverage (or lack there of) in the Cincinnati market. Don't know if it will do any good but his office is usually responsive.

hroeder

01-20-05, 01:24 PM

Nightwatchman,

I'm not sure. I can tell you that I can see the difference between an upconverted HD channel and an SD channel. I.e., if I'm watching Jeapordy and switch between the SD feed and the HD feed, the HD looks better (1080i vrs 480p). I also know that on computer monitors I can tell between a much smaller difference in dot pitch than we're talking about here. Some cheapo cheapo lcd monitors try to get by on .39 dot pitch. And it's easy to see the difference between that and a .28 or better.

Nitewatchman

01-20-05, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by dr1394
I just bought a MyHD card to capture my local DTV stations PSIP.

That should work nicely with your new utility. I wanted to pick up a Hauppage WinTV-D card a couple years back -- The problem is, for mostly stupid reasons, unless I get rid of something such as my Film scanner+it's interface card, or find a motherboard with about 10 PCI slots in it -- I don't have a PC here I can put it in(or anything else like that - even still) except a server that's in a cramped attic hallway .... So, It's silly, but I'd have to build another PC, and I wouldn't have anywhere to put that .. And I'm not sure I want to spend a couple hundred more bucks on another ATSC receiver right now ... I keep thinking about that Sasem ATSC receiver that uses USB port to hook up to laptop, but I'm a little skeptical about how well it might work with the video chipset in the laptop(which is a several years old) ...

Oh - I forgot to mention .. Having seen your comments on opendtv about what your local Pax Station is doing with non-table 3 resolutions ... I don't know about how pax does things at their digital stations, but I have to wonder if there are other Pax digitals doing that as well, especially Pax O&O affilates.

We don't have a "local" Pax DTV station, but there is one not too far away in Morehead, KY(WUPX-DT 21). I see it quite often here -- I Can't tell you what resolutions they are running(no problems decoding any of it here though), but I think they have been multicasting 4 SD subchannels almost as long as they've been on air. I don't quite remember, but they might have even had for a time -- and they might still have 6 SD services.

I last saw them about a week ago - I only got around to switching to the 4th subchannel before I was interupted by "real life duties"., but I did actually watch some "Hee Haw" Clips on one of their multicast services(the first one up from the analog simulcast). The 4th subchannel does always seem to have that scenery with "quotes" when I've seen it, which a couple of other pax station a bit farther out(WPXK 54 Jellico, TN, WNPX 28 in Tn as well) seems to run that scenery a lot on their analog station during overnight hours. Although its been a while since I've seen WNPX(strong DT on 28 now here), WPXK often "makes it all the way through" an analog local(which does actually put in a decent signal at all times) I have on 54 in that same direction ... I've seen them a couple of times, but their digital, WPXK-DT 23 is a more difficult catch, even with no local co-channel issues involved ...

ktarkington

01-20-05, 02:40 PM

I get a lot of breakup on WCPO during all of their shows. I've got a solid 94% signal all of the time. I wonder if they are having a hard time picking up the feed from the Network. This might explain why the 1280*360 is there. Maybe their receiver that picks it up from the network has some kind of glitch. I'm just throwing darts at a problem that I have no clue about. What I am sure of is that the picture sucks.

GadgetJunkies

01-20-05, 02:47 PM

I apologize if this has been addressed but I could not find anything specific on it. I just hooked up a new CM 4308 antenna with a CM 7777 Preamp. I can get everything except Fox audio. Video is fine. My tunner is set to 19-1. Any ideas?

mchuckp

01-20-05, 02:48 PM

Since there are people writing letters and emails to TWC, Raycom, and FOX, concerning the lack of FOX HD via cable. Could anyone who has a name, address, email address for a good contact for any of these please post it. I will do my part to send a written letter or email to anyone who might listen. I assume at least a few others would do the same.

I find it tempting sometimes to spend the money on an OTA antannae and box but it is pretty ridiculous for me to do so for one channel. I'm not to concerned with WB. It's too much effort and money. Congrats to all you in Cincy who currently get FOX OTA. The rest of us will just have to wait. I cannot believe they have been working on this for 2 years. Pitiful!

Again, please post any names or addresses that you may have.

Thanks.

Nitewatchman

01-20-05, 03:03 PM

Turned on the PSIP "fuctions" on RCA DTC-100(integrated NTSC/ATSC receiver/ tuner - The D* HD sat receiver in it is not integrated with the OTA receiver) last night, to see what the local stations were currently up to, and to try to get an idea if we might potentially run into any more PSIP issues in the near future from other stations in the area who might need to soon make some changes. Follows is what I found -- Overall, it seems that things are starting to look up ....

I'm not sure, but I *think* if the first non-remapped minor channel # shows up as X-3 (or higher)subchannel with the PSIP stuff(off air guides function) turned OFF on DTC-100, then I think that probably might indicate the station is probably "complaint" with portion of ATSC a/53 standard(which was a requirement as of 1/1/05), which requires their PID(packet identifier) values that relate to program stream to be at Hex30 address or higher. Again, I don't know this is the case for sure, as I don't know If the MPEG PMT number(which I'm pretty sure is what I'm getting) has to allways be at 3 or above in order for PID to be at 0x30 ... More detailed info on this(which I *think* seems to be saying it could be PID Hex 30 and PMT program # at below 3 on some systems, even though it doesn't come right out and SAY that) , and why these changes at the stations can affect receivers can be found here: http://www.atsc.org/pid_changeinfo.html

It is certianly the case that except for WCVN-DT(which has "started" at X-3 for years now), it's only been within the past couple weeks that the other stations in Cincy/Dayton that now have "X-3" for first stream have changed it from what was allways "x-1 or X-2" previously. In which case, the stations listed farther below with first subchannel at X-1 or X-2 next to "channel remapping/PSIP off" still might need to make some changes for this - if so lets hope they go smoothly.

The "full" A65 PSIP standard becomes a requirement for stations on 2/1/05. This includes requirements for stations to remap their major channel number, so it's the same as the analog channel #, to send proper time/date info, and to send EPG programming info out 12 hours. Obviously, unless it's something "wrong" with DTC-100, the stations listed below which aren't doing all those things yet are going to have to make some changes -- Again -- Hopefully, those changes will go smoothly. Who knows, but the way it looks, I'm thinking any of these changes are as likely to cause difficulties, or require "rescans" as would be the case with a change in their PID values, as described in the preceding paragraph. Links to dl The ATSC A65 PS document can be found here: http://www.atsc.org/psip_links.html

If I notice after a few months or so, they don't seem to be compliant with that stuff(If I can tell it), I'll probably send them a note in case they don't "know" and in case it might help them out. Personally, while all the PSIP "features" are nice, all I really care about is getting good Video/audio service(s), including HD.

Here's what I got from the Cincinnati Digitals, I posted seperately about the Dayton stations in Dayton thread :

WLWT-DT 35
Channel remapping on: 5.1
Proper time/date via PSIP: Yes
EPG programming info via PSIP : Yes
Service/subchannel ID via PSIP(WLWT-HD) : Yes
Integrated in channel profiles with analog channel # 5 : Yes
Channel remapping/PSIP off : 35.3

WCPO-DT 10
Channel remapping on: 9.1, 9.2
Proper time/date via PSIP: Yes
EPG programming info via PSIP : No -- Just "DTV Program" on 9-1, and "Weather Tracker" on 9-2)
Service/subchannel ID via PSIP(WCPO-HD/etc) : Yes
Integrated in channel profiles with analog channel # : Yes
Channel remapping/PSIP off : 10.1, 10.2

WKRC-DT 31
Channel remapping on: 12.1
Proper time/date via PSIP: couldn't check it - See note below
EPG programming info via PSIP : couldn't check it - see note below
Service/subchannel ID via PSIP(WDTN-HD/WDTN-SD) : Couldn't check it - see note below
Integrated in channel profiles with analog channel # : Couldn't check it - see note below
Channel remapping/PSIP off : 31.3

WKRC-DT PSIP crashes DTC-100 Notes: I was not able to check most of the PSIP functions with DTC-100, because tuning to WKRC-DT(I tried it several times, either to 31/12.1/channel up/down button/etc) with the PSIP stuff on on the DTC it caused the receiver to completely lock up ... Really lock up bad ... I had seen another report/thread about this occuring somewhere else with DTC-100, Zenith HDV420 has no problems with their PSIP, and obviously, DTC-100 is working fine with the PSIP stuff turned on with other stations in the area which have their PID's above 0x30 (which we know for sure is the case for WCVN-DT and WXIX-DT, I suspect it's true from WLWT-DT as well) ... I was able to tell that the DTC's channel scan found it and some remapping is going on, because "digital 12" popped up in it's signal meter channel list(antenna "info")

Anyone else with a DTC-100(or anything else) having any problems with this ? Or, does have any ideas concerning what might be going on here?

Obviously, since the DTC-100 is used by the entire family, and WKRC-DT is an often watched station -- I had to turn the PSIP stuff back OFF because of the lock up issue with them. In the past, issues like this with certian stations, or because the PSIP clocks were off/etc are the reason WHY I so far, have left the PSIP stuff turned off on it. I hope though that "someday" I can enjoy the benefits of off air EPG/etc from the local stations ... If it's some sort of firmware issue with DTC-100, I suppose I'm probably out of luck on that though ...

WPTO-DT 28
Channel remapping on: 14.2~6
Proper time/date via PSIP: Yes
EPG programming info via PSIP : No
Service/subchannel ID via PSIP(14DT/etc) : Yes
Integrated in channel profiles with analog channel # : yes
Channel remapping/PSIP off :28.2~6

WXIX-DT 29
Channel remapping on: 19.1
Proper time/date via PSIP: Yes
EPG programming info via PSIP : No
Service/subchannel ID via PSIP(WXIX-HD) : Yes
Integrated in channel profiles with analog channel # : Yes
Channel remapping/PSIP off : 29.3

WCET-DT 34
Channel remapping on: 48.1~5 (Zenith HDV420 - allways worked with DTC before)
Channel remapping/PSIP off : 34.1~5

Of course, 48.1/34.1 disappears completely when they are in 4 channel SD mode, and pops up during HD, with 48.4, 48.5 "disappearing" during HD.

I wasn't able to check the PSIP functions on DTC-100 last night, as I was doing the checking after they had went off air for the night. I would have left the PSIP stuff turned on so I could check it later today/tonight, but had to turn it back off so other family members wouldn't get confused today when they tuned to WKRC-DT and the receiver locked up ...

WCVN-DT 24
Channel remapping on: 54.1~54.6
Proper time/date via PSIP: Yes
EPG programming info via PSIP : Yes
Service/subchannel ID via PSIP(KET1/etc) : Yes
Integrated in channel profiles with analog channel # : Yes
Channel remapping/PSIP off : 24.3~24.8

WSTR-DT 33
Channel remapping on: 64.1
Proper time/date via PSIP: Yes
EPG programming info via PSIP : Yes
Service/subchannel ID via PSIP : Yes
Integrated in channel profiles with analog channel # : Yes
Channel remapping/PSIP off : 33.1

------------------

Nice to see WSTR-DT sending EPG info now! I'm pretty sure with remapping off, they used to be on 33-2 -- Don't recall when it changed.

Nitewatchman

01-20-05, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by ktarkington
Maybe their receiver that picks it up from the network has some kind of glitch. I'm just throwing darts at a problem that I have no clue about. What I am sure of is that the picture sucks.

You're definitely on the right track I think ...I think It's got to be something in the signal chain for ABC HD BEFORE the encoder ... I don't think it's there during the upconverts from SD sources ... (Doc has been saying that all along, BTW, not here though I don't think ) .... Doesn't necessarily mean that whatever is in signal chain that's causing the problem for HD isn't also in the chain for SD sources(which of course also need an upconverter on their end, which the ABC HD doesn't), but just isn't affecting them ...

I sort of doubt that it's the sat receiver for ABC HD though(which is of course part of the equipment ABC supplies, and, according to a post by a engineer at a ABC affiliate on the Thread in Hardware area which Doc started, The sat receiver is something ABC would take care of if it's having problems, but who knows ....

hroeder

01-20-05, 03:11 PM

mchuckp,

I came to the same conclusion as you. I was seriously looking at a Samsung 451, which is new model available for about $199. . .but then I'd have to get a DVI switcher. The one of those I like costs about $500. Cause it will switch both DVI and digital sound. f

My home computer has Media Center loaded on it, and I'm still considering possibly replacing the tuner card with an HD tuner card. But that option is about $200 as well.

I can buy at least 20 DVDs for $200. And 24 will be out on DVD a couple months after the season is over.

6speed

01-20-05, 03:13 PM

Regarding Jeff's post about PSIP status,I had an issue last night with WKRC-DT last night.I tuned in at 9 to watch King of Queens and got a blank screen and no audio(thinking of another WXIX type problem)so I deleted all my channels and did a rescan,it came back up and was fine the rest of the night.

Nitewatchman

01-20-05, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by GadgetJunkies
I can get everything except Fox audio. Video is fine. My tunner is set to 19-1. Any ideas?

Well, I did just notice it cut to their Fox "news Edge" receiver a couple of times for a few seconds .. with graphics/video but no audio ... but I don't think that's what your "dealing" with .. Audio is fine during "normal" programming, including presently .. I couldn't/didn't check it earlier.

Some ideas:

I assume you're getting audio OK from all of the other stations?

If you haven't already done so since around first of this week, you might want to do a channel rescan, since they changed some of their PSIP info around/etc.

Or -- another idea ... There can be 2 audio streams for a program service(subchannel) -- If your receiver has a way to switch between them(I have a "audio" button on my remote on my Zenith receiver which lets you switch audio streams), you might try to make sure it's on the "right" one ... If it isn't "defaulting" to the right one when you tune to 19.1, then a rescan hopefully will fix it .. Otherwise, you'll probably have to contact them and let them know about what you are getting+your equipment(model number/make of receiver) ...

Most stations in the area aren't sending anything on the 2nd audio stream -- but it could be -- for instance, a Spanish language audio track.

BTW, it wouldn't be a reception issue if the video is fine.

Hope this helps,

Nitewatchman

01-20-05, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by 6speed
Regarding Jeff's post about PSIP status,I had an issue last night with WKRC-DT last night.I tuned in at 9 to watch King of Queens and got a blank screen and no audio(thinking of another WXIX type problem)so I deleted all my channels and did a rescan,it came back up and was fine the rest of the night.

They did just move to "unremapped" as 31-3 VERY recently(probably yesterday sometime). Before last night, last time I had checked, they were(unremapped) as 31-1. The changes in their PID values(just like WXIX - but it went "more smoothly" with WKRC-DT) is probably why you had to rrescan.

Inundated

01-20-05, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by hroeder
By the way, Raycom's two largest markets are Cleveland and Cincinnati.

Thanks for representing us in Northeast Ohio!

Unfortunately, writing that to FOX doesn't do us any good up here...our FOX affiliate is owned by the network and is on all the local cable systems ;) Raycom's offenders up here are WOIO (CBS) and WUAB (UPN).

But thanks, anyway! :D

GadgetJunkies

01-20-05, 03:39 PM

Strange. I had unplugged the coax since I was just checking it with the antenna in my family room (putting it in the attic this weekend) and when I plugged it back in I had audio.

ktarkington

01-20-05, 04:18 PM

Nightwatchman,

Have you heard anything from your contact at WCPO as to what they are doing or trying to do to fix this? I get the feeling that they are waiting till they get the new encoder (late 2005), and if it is still happening then, then they might take a look. That means another year of crappy MNF!!! Since it doesn't hit their bottom line right now, why spend time fixing something that only 15-20 people have actually bothered to complain about?

jim tressler

01-20-05, 05:01 PM

I have emailed talley at wcpo a few times and he gets back right a way.. I could pass the downconvert info to him if anyone thinks that will help...

jim

Nitewatchman

01-20-05, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by ktarkington
Have you heard anything from your contact at WCPO as to what they are doing or trying to do to fix this?

Nothing new. Latest I heard from their DOE back in Nov, he said they were looking into it, mentioned something about wanting a new encoder and that he was going to talk to some folks that might be able to help them out in a meeting he was going to in January.

I did send them the info about what Ron found out a week or so ago, but never heard anything back.

I don't know quite how to say this .. (and this is just my opinion based on speculation, although it's still a lot of wild guessing/etc). Depending upon how ABC "upgrades" it's affilates for the new way it's going to be distributing HD to its affiliates, if it would cost them a bunch of money, it might not make *sense* for them to "fix it" now ... You have to keep in mind, we are still a small audience -- and the station is running a business, they have to watch the bottom line ... And, as viewers, we benefit from them making the *right* decisions, even if we don't get the best looking pics for a time .. unfortunetly in this case ... a long time ...

I certianly would like to see updated, accurate, and hopefully mostly honest information from them about it soon, however -- Perhaps either Posted on the www.wcpodt.com website, or sent out via their HD newsletter(IF they ever send one of those again, I think it was last april since I've gotten one) would certianly be nice ...

Nitewatchman

01-21-05, 02:32 PM

Just turned PSIP stuff on on DTC-100 again(which requires a full rescan) and noticed WXIX-DT is now sending EPG via OTA PSIP ... (That was fast) ..

I wasn't able to check it the other night when they were off air, but I notice WCET-DT guide info is now working fine, too ...

WKRC-DT still locking up the DTC-100 with "off air guides"(PSIP stuff) turned on(again, fine on 31-3 with off air guides turned off) -- Is Weasel still around and "PMable?, here or on Zekyl's board?

If/when that can get straigtened out, maybe on DTC-100 I can finally then leave the PSIP/Guides on so I can finally use it ...

jim tressler

01-21-05, 02:35 PM

speaking of PSIP - how can I turn it off on my Hughes HTL-HD? tried last night but could seem to figure it out..

thanks

jim

Nitewatchman

01-21-05, 02:42 PM

Jim,

You probably Can't turn it off. DTC-100 is the only non-PC card receiver I know of that lets you .. DTC-100 is also the only D*+OTA HD receiver I know of on which D*+OTA tuning are not integrated .. The D* + OTA NTSC/ATSC receivers are completely seperate.

For anyone that does have one of these though ... On DTC-100, press "menu", choose the "assistance" option, and then choose "off air guides" -- Then either choose "acquire off air guides" or "do not acquire off air guides" - Choosing either option(whichever one you are not using presently) starts a full rescan(takes a LONG time) of both antenna inputs. DTC has 2 antenna inputs, which are switchable on the remote(I think the button for that says "antenna" but the label has rubbed off after 3 years of use, so don't recalll). Really convienient for seperate Cincinnati/Dayton antennas, or if you want to hook NTSC cable(it's a "cable ready" NTSC tuner of course) to one input, and an antenna to the other.

Turning Off air guides off doesn't just get rid of the guide info, it also turns PSIP Channel remapping/ Auto time/date set via PSIP off as well.

MAX HD

01-21-05, 10:24 PM

CPO DT-10 signal is bouncing all over the place tonight.Analog looks ok.Is this widespread,or just here?

MAX HD

01-21-05, 10:26 PM

CPO DT-10 signal is bouncing all over the place tonight.Analog looks ok.Is this widespread,or just here?

MAX HD

01-21-05, 10:26 PM

CPO DT-10 signal is bouncing all over the place tonight.Analog looks ok.Is this widespread,or just here?

Nitewatchman

01-21-05, 11:35 PM

They've been fine here when I've looked, including presently but I haven't watched it much tonight - Just to check their SD+tickers and Weather bugs vs. WKEF-DT's ABC HD earlier tonight ...CPO-DT at Solid 100% on the Zenith's Signal quality meter, didn't check it but its still probably "88" on the DTC ...

just turned antenna towards Columbus, however + WBNS 10 Audio carrier is making it through the DT snow presently pretty solidly off the side from CPO -- Which is somewhat normal, but not exactly "dead band", which is the case elsewhere as well, especially on VHF side of things.

MarcW

01-21-05, 11:37 PM

I had a couple days now to play with this box and it's def. still in beta stage. I had numerous HD boxes before, starting with the SA 2000HD then the SA 3100HD after that I had the Pioneer 3510HD. Never got my hands on a Pace box so I can't comment on how the 8000HD picture compares to the Pace box. It's been a while since I had the Pioneer but as far as I can remember the picture of the 8000HD is not better or worse than the Pioneers.

The 8000HD has a 160gig drive that can hold 20 hours of HD programming. Not overwhelming but better than nothing. Recorded HD programs look as good as live TV. The box is relatively quick to respond to inputs from the remote. Here is a list of the issues I have found so far:

Sometimes the box will stop changing channels when using the number keys on the remote. Using the channel up and down key still works as well as using the guide and hitting select. Once the number keys don't work anymore only a reboot of the box will fix it.

I was watching a recorded show that was taped on VH1. While I watched the recorded show the box was recording a second show on the same channel. When the recorded show I was watching was over the second show stopped recording.

When the box is recording a show and playing back recorded HD content the box has audio sync issues and the picture breaks up. This happens infrequently but it does happen. If no show is being recorded while watching recorded HD content the picture doesn't break up and there are no audio issues. I'm assuming the processor in this box isn't quite powerful enough to playback HD while recording content.

Sometimes when changing channels the box doesn't show live tv. For example if the box shows CBS for 30 minutes and then I switch to a different channel and then switch back to CBS the box will show what it had recorded 30 minutes ago not live tv.

The s-video out on this box is only active when the box is setup for a 4:3 aspect ratio with 480i resolution output. As far as I can tell this box doesn't have a pass-through feature. This means that all content is up-converted in the box to 1080i. The up-converted picture looks worse then when I have my TV do the scaling. This is no doubt because of the high quality scaler in my Pioneer Elite TV. The 8000HD scaler can't hold a candle to it. Unfortunately my TV locks on full mode when being fed a 1080i signal. This means that I can't use my TV to stretch up-converted SD content. The box gives me the choice of displaying the up-converted SD content with grey sidebars (yuck), zoomed (correct aspect ratio but you loose 1/4 of the picture) or stretched. The stretch mode is nothing but pathetic. It stretches the entire picture not just on the sides making everyone look like eggheads. This is probably the most annoying thing at the moment. If I want to watch SD content and use my TVs stretch mode I have to set the box to 4:3 aspect ration with 480i resolution output. If I want to watch any sort of HD I then need to set the box to 16:9 and 1080i. Not very convenient at all.

MarcW

Originally posted by mchuckp
When you get it all up and running, could you post back your impressions of the box? Did you have an HD box before this one? If so, which one and do you think the SA 8000 is comparable in quality.

From my minimal research online, it seems that the 8000 is not that great of a box. This is probably pretty obvious since most providers aren't using it.

I was told by a CSR about a month ago that one of their concerns on the box they were beta testing was that the hard drive was to small for what they wanted. I thought I remember reading the SA8000 HD could only hold 18 hours of HD content. I'm wondering if they somehow got some revamped 8000's that are better than others out there or did they just say screw it and decided to use them anyway. Damn I wish they got the 8300!

I've been using the Pace 550 and it is a pretty decent box. It is going to be tough for me to give it up if the PQ is markedly worse on the 8000.

Oh well, can't get to bent out of shape until I at least get the thing hooked up.

I would appreciate your thoughts on it though when you do get a chance.

MAX HD

01-21-05, 11:44 PM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
They've been fine here when I've looked, including presently but I haven't watched it much tonight - Just to check their SD+tickers and Weather bugs vs. WKEF-DT's ABC HD earlier tonight ...CPO-DT at Solid 100% on the Zenith's Signal quality meter, didn't check it but its still probably "88" on the DTC ...

just turned antenna towards Columbus, however + WBNS 10 Audio carrier is making it through the DT snow presently pretty solidly off the side from CPO -- Which is somewhat normal, but not exactly "dead band", which is the case elsewhere as well, especially on VHF side of things.

The problem's on my end with interference on VHF that's similar to lightning hits.Also just now noticed that KPRC is in from Houston on 2 pretty strong at times.

Nitewatchman

01-22-05, 12:06 AM

That is odd .. Maybe some power line arcing problems? If it's that bad to bother hi-VHF though you'd think you might see some sign of it on weak UHF signals as well ...

Just checked WHAS 11/WAVE 3, and both are clear here, WHAS is quite weak with occasional rapid fading ... With traps I now have in line knocking down 2/WDTN around 40db, I no longer seem to see any signs of CCI to DTN 2 from E-skip ... No apparent CCI to WAVE 3 here either though presently.

zekyl

01-22-05, 11:27 AM

I posted this over at my site a few days ago. It is about the WXIX HD TWC crap.

This is from someone over at Raycom Media.

Right now I don't think anything positive will be gained by our encouraging anyone to yank on TW's chain too hard. They know and we know that coming to a win/win agreement is in the best interest of our customers and our local business partners. Both corporations continue to work to see if it possible to come to an agreement prior to the Super Bowl. I'm told that the local TW Cable system has already taken the steps required to distribute our HDTV over the air broadcast on a moment's notice. We can also deliver our HDTV bradcast to them via fiber. Anyway, we are hopeful that TW will accept the few local deal points to which Comcast and others have already agreed.

tbenson81

01-22-05, 01:03 PM

Jeff,

I have a little update on the NBC-HD audio / video breakup problem that you were helping me troubleshoot. The problem seemed to go away all week Mon - Fri and the audio and video worked well. However - as soon as the weekend hits again the problem is back. Do you have and idea why this is happeneing? I have a technican coming out tomorrow but I dont know what he is going to do. I have removed all splitters to boost the signal very high and the problem still occurs, swicthed out the cables, changed the Dvi cord, tried component and the problem still occcurs. Does this sound like a problem with my box or with TW? Thanks again for all your input.

Nitewatchman

01-22-05, 01:47 PM

tbenson,

Probably best to see what the TW Tech finds out first ... Let us know how it turns out+what they say ...

Gruber

01-22-05, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by ktarkington
Here I go with the WCPO thing.

I've got a 98% signal on digital channel 10, but My HD Tivo is skipping about every 3 to 5 minutes. It does not do this on any other HD channel. I wonder my Tivo is just not understanding the signal that they are sending out for some reason.

I hope they replace that Motorola real soon here.

Question: have you figured out what the issues is with your HD TiVO?
I have the exact same situation when using the DTV tuner in the TiVO, but the signal is just fine when viewed using the DTV tuner in my TV. I'm begininng to wonder if the TiVO unit is bad?

My signal on WCPO Ch. 10 is low, (-9db) but the signal registers as a 92 on the TiVo signal screen.

This is a strange problem.
gruber

ktarkington

01-22-05, 04:37 PM

I still have the same issue. I think it has something to do with the Tivo unit not being able to read the MPEg coming in or it isn't standard, etc. This is the only channel it happens on. The UC game had many skips today. This never happened on my old RCA HD receiver. I think it is specific to the HR10-250. This is the second one that I have had. Both have had bad HDMI ports. This is a know issue. I'm waiting till the 29th day that I've had this and swap it out again at Best Buy.

bnewsom

01-22-05, 08:36 PM

I'm watching Aladdin on WCPO in HD via Time Warner's Pioneer STB. Although the colors are vivid, the edges have the stair-stepped "jaggies"... it looks terrible.

I have also noticed this with Monday Night Football... it was almost unwatchable this year, but I recall it looking very good last year. Football games on CBS this past season looked stunning!

Is there a problem with WCPO in Cincinnati? I can't find anyone else complaining about ABC HD in general.

Thanks

tbenson81

01-22-05, 08:58 PM

Can someone with a pace 550 box and TW tune to channel 998 and watch it for a minute and see if you have any problems. 50% of the time I have no picture on this channel and 50% the audio/video is very choppy. All other channels are working fine now with the exception of NBC-HD that has occasional video/audio drops as well

APorter

01-22-05, 09:10 PM

Watched 998 for about five minutes, no problems.

tbenson81

01-22-05, 09:27 PM

Thanks APorter - I really appreciate your help

DrDon

01-22-05, 10:25 PM

Originally posted by bnewsom
Is there a problem with WCPO in Cincinnati? I can't find anyone else complaining about ABC HD in general. Uhm.. scroll back a few pages through this thread. Like the last 30 or so <g>.

Sea Ray

01-22-05, 10:42 PM

Originally posted by tbenson81
Can someone with a pace 550 box and TW tune to channel 998 and watch it for a minute and see if you have any problems. 50% of the time I have no picture on this channel and 50% the audio/video is very choppy. All other channels are working fine now with the exception of NBC-HD that has occasional video/audio drops as well

I have the same Pace box for a week now and I tend to get choppy video and audio in general with it. The picture will pixelate from time to time especially in motion and the sound drops (at least once every 5 minutes) for a second or two.

Channel 998 seems to be OK tonight. I've not had any sound drop there but the normal choppy video on movie feeds like Dodgeball. I have experienced sound drop tonight on ESPN, WLWT and IN-HD to name a few.

I don't know if my box is to blame but I don't recall this problem with my Pioneer box and I get no sound drops on my non-HD digital box.

I may call tomorrow and see if they think I should try a new box.

jim tressler

01-22-05, 11:30 PM

Yep.. wcpo has issues.. look back several pages and you will see you are not alone.

Originally posted by bnewsom
I'm watching Aladdin on WCPO in HD via Time Warner's Pioneer STB. Although the colors are vivid, the edges have the stair-stepped "jaggies"... it looks terrible.

I have also noticed this with Monday Night Football... it was almost unwatchable this year, but I recall it looking very good last year. Football games on CBS this past season looked stunning!

Is there a problem with WCPO in Cincinnati? I can't find anyone else complaining about ABC HD in general.

Thanks

luebster

01-23-05, 07:05 AM

Originally posted by ktarkington
I still have the same issue. I think it has something to do with the Tivo unit not being able to read the MPEg coming in or it isn't standard, etc. This is the only channel it happens on. The UC game had many skips today. This never happened on my old RCA HD receiver. I think it is specific to the HR10-250. This is the second one that I have had. Both have had bad HDMI ports. This is a know issue. I'm waiting till the 29th day that I've had this and swap it out again at Best Buy.
Put me in the WCPO/HDTiVo boat. Every other channel seems to record fine, but WCPO is mostly unwatchable. I'm lucky if anything is recorded at all. For instance, the UC game vs Wake Forest only managed to record about 10 minutes. There were breakups, dead space, stuttering video/audio, etc. For the last 3 weeks, Lost has been the same way. I've resorted to re-adding Lost Season Pass to my wfie's SD DirecTiVo. This sort of behavior only started in the last 3 weeks or so.

I would chalk it up to my HDTiVo failing, but since it only happens on WCPO OTA, I'm inclined to think it's WCPO. All other DTV signals from WXIX, WLWT, WKRC, et. al. come in fine. Putting up with jaggies was no big deal compared to not being able to watch at all!

barhoram

01-23-05, 10:46 AM

I am having the same problems with WCPO and my HD-Tivo as well. I first noticed issues with Monday Night Football (breakups, droupouts, etc)and thought my Tivo was failing. I kept an eye on other channels for the problem, but didn't notice this on any of the other satellite or local channels. Now that I have been recording Lost, I am getting the same problems. OTA strength (from West Chester) shows in the 90's on the HD-Tivo. Must be a problem specific to WCPO. I hope we can get them to fix whatever this is.

tbenson81

01-23-05, 12:18 PM

So I had the TW tech come out today and he tested all the signals and said that everything looks good, that it must be the box. I was a little skeptical considering that I only have a problem on channels 905 and 998. The only box he had with him was a Scientific Atlantic. I wasnt about to downgrade to that so I had him hook it up just for the heck of it and see if the problem improved. Sure enough, the problem was still there on the new box. No picture on 998 or intermittent picture and audio/ video dropouts on 905. He said that he didnt know what it could be. I told him that the only similarity that I have noticed when these problems occur is that the Tuner BER (AVG) seems to increase on the 2 channels. I know that this is the bit error rate but is there ways to improve it? All the other channels have a BER of 0 and these 2 are 3.61 x 10-6 or something like that. He didnt respond, so looks like nothing has been resolved as a result. He said that it must be a problem on their end but last night, several people on this board said that the issue didnt occur.

So, I am turning to the experts on this board as a last resort. Everyone here seems to know their stuff very well and I appreciate any final things to try. It seems as I am out of options. Thanks

DrDon

01-23-05, 12:40 PM

Something may be notching the fequencies those channels occupy. I know with satellite, a surge suppressor in the line can knock down entire transponders. Condensation can have the same effect. Could even be the amps in their lines. I'd start looking for anything from old cable to filters/traps/etc that may be in the line between you and the street. I know Insight periodically sticks some sort of filter in my line they claim is necessary for the cable modem. But its insertion loss is on the order of -8db, wrecking the very cable modem it's supposed to help. So, whenever they put them in, I go take them right back out.

Nitewatchman

01-23-05, 01:50 PM

Well, seems like they should come up with something better than "Everything looks OK, must be the Box" ....

Bit error rate would certianly be higher at those times when SNR ratio is dropping too low for decoder to be able to do it's thing ... I don't know what the threshold required for "dropout free" MPEGII decoding via QAM over cable is, but for OTA DTV/8VSB it's approx 16db S/N.

If its something in the line that is actually acting as a notch filter on the effected frequencies(or "portions" of them) however -- I wonder why his SNR is bouncing around so much at times - unless, the signal level itself is varying quite a bit? On the other hand, if it's overloaded amps(which could cause "variable" results), or RFI getting in somewhere/etc, (perhaps in combination with connections/etc effected by condensation+all the warm then cold them warm then cold weather/etc), then the noise level certianly could vary quite a bit in a frequency dependant fashion ... Could be a combination of "factors" too, I suppose ...

Just some thoughts ... I'm not too good at diagnosing problems affecting cable drops/etc, seems like that should be TW's "department" ....

Originally posted by DrDon
I know Insight periodically sticks some sort of filter in my line they claim is necessary for the cable modem.

My guess is that is probably a high pass filter that blocks frequencies below 40mhz or so, so transmissions from the the cable modem don't potentially cause interference to your TV, and those things are also used to keep noise/interference coming from the subscriber's home from noising up the return path to cableco(or drops to other subscribers) ... For your cable modem, probably should go after a splitter(which probably wouldn't have enough isolation on its own) just off the port that should just go to the TV's ...

there's a short blurb about them near top of page here:

http://www.scte.org/chapters/newengland/reference/Cable_Modems/PageFive.htm

JunkyardDogg

01-23-05, 02:32 PM

WXIX-DT is not remapping anymore for me, back to 29.03.
WCPO-DT still looks like sh*t. What is so hard from them to fix? I am writing them again, maybe just have a message sent every day to the engineers. It worked before the station moved to Gilbert Ave. Why haven't they tried messing around with the settings. And they still wont answer my question about 5.1? They even annouced after the move that they would have it. Maybe I should just watch Dayton stations from now on. I guess I should start posting on that thread.

1450kHz

01-23-05, 06:57 PM

My guess is that is probably a high pass filter that blocks frequencies below 40mhz or so, so transmissions from the the cable modem don't potentially cause interference to your TV, and those things are also used to keep noise/interference coming from the subscriber's home from noising up the return path to cableco(or drops to other subscribers) ... For your cable modem, probably should go after a splitter(which probably wouldn't have enough isolation on its own) just off the port that should just go to the TV's ...

That would explain why it screws up the modem, because I seem to remember that the upstream frequency on my cable modem service was around 26 MHz. Too much return loss and it won't lock. (I had that problem here once but it was because a line amp in the cable company's facilities had failed.)

jim tressler

01-23-05, 09:03 PM

hey WTF.. the afc championship just went into sd.....

edit.. ok its back.. do they have to flip the switch after every break?

DrDon

01-23-05, 09:25 PM

After every LOCAL break they do. Whenever you see Paula Tobin or Rob Braun, it's a local break. They have to manually reach up and flip it back, afterwards. They frequently go entire program segments or game quarters in SD before catching it on the next local break. You can call the newsroom (as I frequently do) and nudge them.

JunkyardDogg

01-23-05, 11:24 PM

Well I wrote a new bunch of emails today, I got a response from WSTR-DT and it looks like this week PSIP coding tables are going to be worked on so maybe it will remap on my tuner. Hopefully a response from WCPO, but they never replied from last weeks. My next email will go to WKRC and press them to put in 5.1 sooner, because it looks like CBS shows are going digital surround. AFC on CBS looked awesome, FOX wasn't even close, WCPO looks worse yet. Maybe I should drive down to WCPO and talk face-to-face with an engineer.

microbob

01-23-05, 11:39 PM

I wonder when WSTR-DT will start broadcasting in 5.1 again? I know there was an issue with some equipment that Sinclair had with the WB network and it was being fixed. This was back in November though. I haven't heard anything since.

Gruber

01-24-05, 10:38 AM

Originally posted by luebster
Put me in the WCPO/HDTiVo boat.
I would chalk it up to my HDTiVo failing, but since it only happens on WCPO OTA, I'm inclined to think it's WCPO. All other DTV signals from WXIX, WLWT, WKRC, et. al. come in fine. Putting up with jaggies was no big deal compared to not being able to watch at all!

Okay, so there are at least 3 of us having problems decoding VHF Ch#10, WCPO HD with the HR10-250.

I have an ATSC tuner in my TV and it can hold on to WCPO HD just fine, even though my signal strength is marginal (-9db). So, are we looking at a sensitivity issue with the HR10-250 or some compatibility with the encoded format?

Would the other folks please post their signal strength for VHF Ch #10. Maybe we're just on the fringe of the tuner's capabilities.

Gruber

jkeane

01-24-05, 10:42 AM

WCPO-DT comes in at 90-92% on my HD-Tivo. I have not had any problems other than very poor PQ. I switched on the golf for a little while yesterday afternoon and the graphics were unreadable.

Nitewatchman

01-24-05, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by microbob
I wonder when WSTR-DT will start broadcasting in 5.1 again? I know there was an issue with some equipment that Sinclair had with the WB network and it was being fixed. This was back in November though. I haven't heard anything since.

I'd seen that thread in programming area some time ago as well .. I think they said it's a WB network issue, not just Sinclair, and that WB would not be sending DD 5.1 again until they could get it fixed. WBDT-DT, WB HD Dayton is Acme owned (and also was doing DD 5.1 prior to this issue) and last I checked they were still sending just DD 2.0 as well.

dusterscott

01-24-05, 11:37 AM

Is anyone having trouble receiving CBS (12-1) in high definition with their off air antenna? The other stations out of Cincinnati are coming in fine for me. It was a real bummer having to watch the football game in standard definition yesterday. I also missed CSI last Thursday night. I live in Middletown and haven't had problems with CBS HD until about a week ago. I'm glad the Super Bowl is on FOX!

Nitewatchman

01-24-05, 12:08 PM

Hopefully a rescan will fix dusterscott's problem. I see from his profile he is using a Samsung 360, so if it isn't a reception issue, I'd think a rescan would probably do it given their recent PSIP change and since we haven't heard from anyone else having problems with them.

However, again, WKRC-DT is locking up DTC-100 completely here with its PSIP features turned on(after a re-scan). It's fine on 31-3 with the PSIP stuff turned off on DTC-100. Their PSIP also seems fine(along with everyone else in Cincinnati, including major channel remapping to analog ch #) on Zenith HDV420 receiver.

So, I'm not quite sure if they've got it "right" or not. Might be a DTC-100 "issue", but all other stations are OK. I was hoping to hear if anyone else with DTC-100, perhaps with different firmware than I'm using (4.37) is getting this issue from them as well before I try to contact them.

tbenson81

01-24-05, 12:36 PM

It has been confirmed:

The HD DVR's are beginning to roll-out in Cincinnati. I was on the waiting list and was called and told that one is available. The model is the SA8000HD. I dont know if DVI is active or not yet. I dont even think I want it anymore, knowing its the 8000 and not the 8300. I think I will just stick it out with my Pace box.

ClarkeR

01-24-05, 12:44 PM

I know I wasn't receiving WKRC-DT this weekend on my SIR-T151 but I haven't tried a rescan yet.

DrDon

01-24-05, 12:59 PM

ClarkeR

Ditto my 151. Usually, I can delete and re-add the channel and that's enough. Not this time. Had to click on "Memorize channels" and let it run through the whole lot. Since I'd already seen Jeff's post while I was on the road, I sorta figured that was waiting for me when I got back.

jim tressler

01-24-05, 01:13 PM

no problems on wkrc-dt here this weekend - hughes htl-hd

gotta love watching pittsburgh get thrashed!!!

only complaint was wkrc missed the switch for 1 minute in the 3rd quarter after a local break... just as I was picking up the phone to call it switched back

jim

smackman

01-24-05, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by tbenson81
It has been confirmed:

The HD DVR's are beginning to roll-out in Cincinnati. I was on the waiting list and was called and told that one is available. The model is the SA8000HD. I dont know if DVI is active or not yet. I dont even think I want it anymore, knowing its the 8000 and not the 8300. I think I will just stick it out with my Pace box.

I have had one of these from TWC Cincinnati since the first of the year, as a beta tester. The units are garbage - they lose their settings all the time, the PVR functionality goes out on them, and sometimes completely lose audio and or video. I need to reboot the box every 2 or 3 days just to keep it running. I've had TWC look at it, and they just scratch their heads.

dusterscott

01-24-05, 01:37 PM

Thanks guys. I don't think it's a reception problem. I'll try a rescan tonight and let you know how it works out. All I was getting was an information 'header' at the top of the screen.

Nitewatchman

01-24-05, 02:36 PM

I wonder whose bright idea it was to do this(see attached pic) for the show "Home Delivery" which runs weekdays on WXIX 2-3pm .... I wonder if they're getting any calls about it not actually being broadcast in HD <g> :

chrisdow

01-24-05, 03:58 PM

no problems on wkrc-dt here this weekend - hughes hdTivo...onece again WCPO-DT was terrible for Aladin & really had a lot of pixelization during desperate H* last nite too...

dusterscott

01-24-05, 04:05 PM

Nightwatchman:

What does PSIP mean?

mchuckp

01-24-05, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by smackman
I have had one of these from TWC Cincinnati since the first of the year, as a beta tester. The units are garbage - they lose their settings all the time, the PVR functionality goes out on them, and sometimes completely lose audio and or video. I need to reboot the box every 2 or 3 days just to keep it running. I've had TWC look at it, and they just scratch their heads.

I was very disappointed to hear as well that they are using the 8000 and not the 8300. I heard there was A LOT of problems with the Beta versions. I wonder if the newer makes work a lot better than the one you have. I have been on the waiting list since October. Hopefully I will get a call soon. I plan on checking it out and if it isn't up to par, return it and live with not being able to record HD for the time being. It sucks but I'd rather have a box that works and has a good picture quality. If the 8000 produces a picture inferior to the Pace, I don't think I can make myself live with it.

Oh well. If anyone gets one of the newer builds, please post and let us know what you think of it.

DrDon

01-24-05, 04:12 PM

Dusterscott..

Go to www.psip.org and click on "Top Ten Reasons.." Scroll down past the top ten list. (Sorry Jeff.. didn't mean to hijack)

JunkyardDogg

01-24-05, 04:30 PM

WPTO-DT 14.2-.6 are now sending program titles on the psip. I haven't seen this before, but I usually watch WCET-DT. Is anyone else getting WXIX-DT on 29.03?

microbob

01-24-05, 05:57 PM

I'm not seeing a problem with WXIX-DT PSIP mapping. My receiver is showing 19-1 as well as my HDTV-intergrated tuner.

Nitewatchman

01-24-05, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by DrDon
(Sorry Jeff.. didn't mean to hijack)

No hijacking perceived here ... You gave a much better answer than the one I was tempted to give concerning what sort of perhaps more "creative"(but still perhaps not alltogether completely inaccurate) "descriptions" that have come to mind when I think about the "PSIP" acronym as of late ;)

DrDon

01-24-05, 06:55 PM

LOL! I'm lazy. Especially when I have the link memorized, thanks to WXIX <G>

dusterscott

01-24-05, 07:37 PM

Thanks for the help! I did a rescan and got 12-1 CBS HD back. Deleting the station and adding it manually didn't do the trick.

Nitewatchman

01-24-05, 08:03 PM

DTV channel election -- The first round starts! - Only a few from the area have trickled in(or are showing up) so far ... but follows is current info from FCC info concerning what stations(which are eligible for a first round pick) have decided where they want their DTV signal after analog shut off -- We probably won't know for sure where they'll all end up until the entire process is over .... I think you might need Acrobat reader installed to get to the links :

WPTO-DT says they want to stay on Channel 28 (see here) :

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101037219&formid=382&fac_num=25065

WPTD-DT Dayton wants 16 BTW (they have to move from 58 of course which is out of the core, 16 is their current analog channel).

WXIX-DT Wants to Stay on 29 instead of moving to their analog allocation on 19 :

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101040906&formid=382&fac_num=39738

hugenbdd

01-24-05, 10:30 PM

19 WXIX (Fox) on Insight cable.

Just checked the guide and it looks like Insight has added Fox to the HD lineup. 763. So at least those in N. KY that have cable will be able to watch the S.B. in HiDef. oh, and of course, American Idol. ;)

Dave

microbob

01-24-05, 11:05 PM

Now all they need to do is add WSTR-DT and they will have all of the Cincinnati HD stations.

hroeder

01-25-05, 08:01 AM

I hope it stays up Dave. I didn't see it yesterday. Last week I saw 763 show up with no data connected to it, then it disappeared. I never check the channel guide in the morning.

hugenbdd

01-25-05, 11:11 AM

hroeder
I would think it would. I saw it a while back also with no guide data. However, it has guide data out to Feb. 9th. So I wouldn't think they would take it back off. This was very similar to the boxing PPV (HD) that they did over the sumer. They had the PPV channel on for a day or so, then took it off. Then it came back on the morning of the fight.

Now we just need them to get ESPN2 or some other HD national channels.

Dave

hroeder

01-25-05, 12:31 PM

TNT and 64 would be my top two choices. Does FX do HD? Because The Shield starts back up in a month.

bsherm

01-25-05, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by hroeder
TNT and 64 would be my top two choices. Does FX do HD? Because The Shield starts back up in a month.

I just wish TNT HD would let you know what is going to be in real HD as opposed to the faked widescreen presentation they use at times. I get tired of watching actors heads get wide on the edges. :)

DrDon

01-25-05, 01:19 PM

That's not TNT's doing. It's their actual heads swelling. Watch the Oscars. You can see it happening right before your eyes.

Sorry.. couldn't resist.

DrDon

01-25-05, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by hugenbdd
19 WXIX (Fox) on Insight cable.

Just checked the guide and it looks like Insight has added Fox to the HD lineup. 763. So at least those in N. KY that have cable will be able to watch the S.B. in HiDef. oh, and of course, American Idol. http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050125/ENT/501260306

microbob

01-25-05, 08:50 PM

There is no audio tonight during local spot breaks and programming. Fox is sounding fine. I wonder if they notice this?

Nitewatchman

01-25-05, 09:15 PM

microbob,

I've noticed that as well a couple of times in the past week. It's happening on occaison from WRGT-DT Fox Dayton as well. During one local spot during NFC game from WRGT, there was some audio coming out of left channel for a bit, and also nothing for a time. So I'm wondering if it could perhaps be a splicer related issue ...

Your guess is as good as mine concerning whether they are noticing it or not. It's probably difficult for them to monitor the audio from both the analog and digital stations ... Hopefully someday soon more station employees will even be actually watching their stations' DTV/HD signals from home ...

libertytwp

01-25-05, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by Inundated
While I agree with nearly everything else in your message...this needs to be clarified.

As far as I know, there's no federal mandate for high-definition TV. The mandate is for DIGITAL TV, which includes many HD standards, and also SD. You have at least one large sized network group - PAX TV - which will likely never go HD. They use their digital channels to squeeze in four SD subchannels.

I DO agree with your comments about networks like FOX and the fact that they should be concerned about this if their local affiliates are providing roadblocks to local cable systems picking the network up in HD. Where they own the affiliate, like here in Cleveland, they allow a national HD feed via DirecTV (which by the way, they basically also own, via Mr. Murdoch).

We have the same problem up here with Raycom and WOIO (CBS)/WUAB (UPN) and Time Warner Cable...and Adelphia, which serves my part of town.

I completely understand Xix's position. In fact if baffles me why they would want to provide theer signal to their competitor at any price, which is what time warner is. Do you really think people wouldn't watch 24 just because it isn't on cable?

zekyl

01-25-05, 09:29 PM

Well it is like this. I hardly ever watch any Fox programming because it is not in HD on TWC. I would start watching programs like 24 if they were in HD. I am a HD snob I would say. I watch all kinds of shows because they are in HD. The program may not be as good as 24 for example, but I'd rather watch HD than a non-HD show.

Broadwings

01-25-05, 10:08 PM

Idol and House looked great tonight on Insight HD. Looking forward to 24 on Monday.

mspalacios

01-25-05, 10:09 PM

Some questions re: WXIX-DT Fox 19:

1/ Any reason why the FOX logo on the lower right hand screen does not completely show in their 16:9 HD transmissions? I can partly see the F, O and little of the X. No big deal, but just wondering if it's my setup.

2/ I'm getting WXIX-DT on 19.1, but they've done something that's sending signal on channel 19 and for some reason I can't hide that channel. This started after rescanning and getting 29.3 for a while, then changing back to 19.1... anyone seeing weirdness on their OTA HD tuners after their transmiter / channel shuffle? Could this be a side effect of this whole PSIP situation that I read on this thread?

I'm receiving HD channels via OTA and built-in HD tuner on my TV (Check profile for full details).

PS: Mike, 24 on HD is AWESOME. even transmitted on DD 5.1!

ItzMe

01-25-05, 10:57 PM

I'm pretty sure that the Fox HD logo is SUPPOSED to look like that.

microbob

01-25-05, 11:06 PM

I believe it is up to the local Fox affiliate to insert its logo into the splicer system. If they do not, the default blue logo will appear as in the case of WXIX-DT. I'm at a loss why WXIX hasn't inserted its logo into the network system.

DrDon

01-25-05, 11:18 PM

Microbob's right. And I suggest we all leave well enough alone. The off-screen blue FOX is immensely preferable to the bright Fox 19 full color bug. The Fox NY station has a full-color bug and it's driving everyone nuts. Fox-LA uses a transparent bug which looks perfect. Knowing WXIX's propensity for the full-color bug, I'm rather happy they've not messed with it.

As to the monitoring issue, the only DTV receiver inside of WXIX isn't even on the same floor as the master control room, so they DON'T have any way of monitoring the DTV signal. To check it, the MCO has to leave master control and go downstairs to have a look.

It's not particularly uncommon. WKRC also has no direct monitor. There's a screen on the router, but it shows what's going out TO the transmitter. It doesn't display off-air. It's also really tiny. On the order of 4X3 inches. The only off-air DTV monitor is in the lobby.

WLWT-DT does have a monitor in MC. However, the sound is kept down as the delay is confusing.

I don't know about WCPO. They've missed enough 11pm switches (Watched a good chunk of "My Wife and Kids" west coast feed tonight) to make me think they don't have off-air DTV monitoring, either. OTOH, they're really quick about bailing the HD feed when it messes up. Who knows.

Doc

hroeder

01-26-05, 11:20 AM

I'm happy to have Fox and to know that the Fox logo isn't just on my set.

As to the comments about why would XIX want to supply their competitor with programing. . .Cable, and satelitte is not a competitor. Over the Air is less and less the primary means of receiving TV in this country.

If I'm an advertizer, I want the people watching HD to get my message. Because I know those are the people who spend money. Those of us who come on this board are a prime market.

And as someone else said: if I have the choice between two shows, I'll watch the one in HD.

Nitewatchman

01-26-05, 01:02 PM

You have to have your display set for 0% overscan in order to see the entire Fox bug on WXIX. It's all "there", but CRT displays especially are usually going to "need" a certian amount of overscan, which will hide part of the fox bug.

Although I probably wouldn't have used the word "competitor" in quite that way, I think libertytwp's comments are essentially correct. The services provided via cable+sat certianly are competitors for broadcasters, just as other stations are. Now, OTA as a means of last mile delivery to the home ... Unfortunately, broadcasters aren't even trying for that --- which is actually part of the problem, IMO. ... But, They don't HAVE to, tey know viewers will watch(if they want to watch the programming available from that station) no matter how they get the signal - whether it be via OTA, DBS LIL or cable.

IMO, Broadcasters made a big mistake "way back when" they began "letting" cable carry their signals in a widespread fashion in the first place. At first(late 70's early 80's), before there was much of anything on cable besides the broadcast stations+ maybe HBO/ESPN, it was good because cable allowed people ---- usually small communities "beyond fringe areas" who actually, really could not receive the signals --- to get the broadcast stations and programming from the broadcast nets. The same is true for LIL via DBS.

You know what happens when you make a deal with the devil and mix it with the "public"(many of whom don't even seem to know you CAN get TV OTA without ridiculously high monthly subscription fees), mix in a lot of "only cable can" commercials and reports from Materese that don't even mention HIS station is actually broadcasting DTV free to air/etc/etc/etc .....

As for over the air being "less and less the primary means of receiving TV in this country", I'm not so sure that is true, currently. The OTA only numbers certianly dropped and dropped like a rock throughout the 80's and early 90's, but the # of OTA only households hasn't changed much in the last several years. ...Since the number of DBS subs(which is slightly more than OTA only numbuers) have went up recently, unless ALL of those came from cable, there must even be at least some "new" folks now using OTA only. Anyhow, according to the most recent figures I've seen, Approx 17% of households nationwide are currently OTA only. OTA only in some markets is as high as 50%+, and as low as below 10%. The latest numbers I saw for Cincinnati Market were around 15% OTA Only. That's 135,000 households in Cincinnati using OTA only, not including those in nearby markets(Dayton) which receive Cincinnati stations OTA as well.

What "primary means of receving TV" indicates is also not allways as black and white as one might think. Strangely, what it means is, if you subscribe to cable/sat, OTA is not the "primary means" you use to receive TV, even if you actually USE OTA to receive most of the TV programming you watch ...

To me, where OTA viewership is concerned ... the important figure is how many VIEWERS are using OTA. It's hard to get an accurate figure for that, but one "data point" which relates: Somewhere between 60~80 million+ SETS in the U.S. are actually used with OTA - Some of those sets are even in cable/DBS households, but are used for OTA in the kitchen/bedrooms, or, are sets that are hooked up to, use BOTH cable/OTA or DBS/OTA/etc/etc. That's a pretty big number when you consider the number of households in U.S. (about 110 million). And, that number is a "problem" currently, since all but a very, very small number of those sets have only NTSC(analog) tuners in them, and, even worse, they are still even actually selling analog "only" sets without any sort of "warning label" -- which isn't so good considering the "projected" end for DTV transistion was "supposed" to be 2006 ...

As for myself, my "Primary means" of recieving TV is OTA(meaning I+my family watch more TV delivered OTA than via other means), but I would not be counted as such in the "numbers", as I also am a E* sub. I don't know for how long though, given how little we actually USE the sat dish for anything ....

hroeder

01-26-05, 02:12 PM

Cable began, as you indicate Jeff, in those small communities where a signal was almost impossible to get. I lived in one. Befoe cable I had a Winegard antenna that hid behind my bookshelf. . .something like 4 ft by 6ft. But this was 3 decades ago. HBO wasn't even offered.

But 83% is a pretty big saturation point. I'd also dare say that many of those dish owners aren't even aware that they're getting their local signals OTA.

Bacjk in the day cable also had the advantage of a "pre-empt" channel. When there was a "Bearcat Bounce", as it is now called, whatever was normally on that channel was broadcast from a different source on another channel. That the locals really fought against.

My own viewing is pretty atypical. I watch as much or more HDNet, UHD, ESPN, HBO and Showtime as I do broadcast. Much of cable I could care less about. . .but believe that the choice is important. In the day I watched MTV. Today I couldn't tell you how to find it. Probably because I've never heard Britney or Averil or PDiddy or 50 Cents sing anything. And that isn't meant to be a disparaging remark about the quality of their vocal renderings. . .I simply couldn't tell you a song any one of them performs. Benefits of having a CD player in the car.

Nitewatchman

01-26-05, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by hroeder
But 83% is a pretty big saturation point.

It can't be quite that much. Nationwide, DBS has about 22%, OTA Only about 17%, Which of course would leave 61% for Cable, and again some of those use multiple sources(OTA+cable, OTA+DBS, Cable+DBS/etc). Those are the nationwide averages, which are mostly just based upon the numbers of cable/dbs subs, although some of the info I had seen was based on Neilsen ratings info. And remember, It varies by market. There are some markets where OTA onlies are 50% of households, and that's not because cable isn't "available" there .....

Update: (oops I forgot to put this in)

Originally posted by hroeder

I'd also dare say that many of those dish owners aren't even aware that they're getting their local signals OTA.

Satellite(DBS - DirecTV/Dishnetwork) subscribers aren't counted in the OTA ONLY 17%. Also, I think nowadays anyway, many DBS subscribers get locals over the dish instead of via OTA, but some of us certianly use OTA as well .....

Originally posted by hroeder
Bacjk in the day cable also had the advantage of a "pre-empt" channel. When there was a "Bearcat Bounce", as it is now called, whatever was normally on that channel was broadcast from a different source on another channel. That the locals really fought against.

Maybe it used to be something "different" but I believe "Bearcat Bounce" refers to the scheduling change of fox programming on WXIX. WBQC actually usually sends Fox19 news at 10pm OTA(yes, they do it via a seperate cable channel as well) when it's delayed on WXIX by sports programming. Also, around here, since pretty much all of Cincinnati is within Dayton stations coverage areas and vice versa, you can watch the Dayton network affiliate for the Network(including HD) programming via OTA when local sports programming/etc is ran instead of network programming. At one time, I can even recall WSTR OTA running WLWT's NBC programming at times when WLWT ran other programming ...

If anything, in our area OTA definitely has some advantages over cable when it comes to programming from the broadcast nets. One reason is because of nearby adjacent markets(Dayton mainly) whose signals can be received in most locations within Greater Cincinnati area with a decent outdoor antenna setup ... This is advantagous if you want to watch, say, Fox HD when WXIX is running a UC game, or WB HD when a UK game is on WSTR, or if you are in Dayton, for CBS HD when the Dayton CBS affiliate is running a UD game, or if the Cincinnati station is having "problems" or forgets to flip the switch, or if you want to watch PBS HD channel from PBS Dayton station between 11pm and 6am nightly ... I'll stop now, but there are other reasons why being able to receive stations in adjacent markets via OTA can sometimes be advantagous as well ... That isn't going to change, even when/if all the Cincinnati HD locals are someday carried on Cincinnati Cable systems ....