Welcome!

This is the place for discussing all issues related to HD in the Cincinnati, Ohio area.


Cincinnati DMA Station list/info :


Note : Remapped virtual channel #'s in parentheses, stations listed with minor channels as "x" multicast. Note: Stations post-transition Physical(RF) Channel # is shown in Brackets.


Full Service DTV Stations :


WLWT-DT 35 (5-x)[35] - NBC HD/DD 5.1 - http://www.channelcincinnati.com/
WCPO-DT 10 (9-x)[10] - ABC HD/DD 5.1 - http://www.wcpo-dt.com/
WKRC-DT 31 (12-x)[12] - CBS HD/CW SD - http://www.wkrc.com
WPTO-DT 28 (14-x)[28] - PBS HD/ThinkTV - http://www.thinktv.org
WXIX-DT 29 (19-x)[29] - FOX HD/DD 5.1 - http://www.fox19.com
WCET-DT 34 (48-x)[34] - PBS HD/DD 5.1 - http://www.cetconnect.org/digital/
WKON-DT 44 (52-x)[44] KET - PBS HD/DD 5.1- http://www.ket.org/dtv
WCVN-DT 24 (54-x)[24] KET - PBS HD/DD 5.1 - http://www.ket.org/dtv
WSTR-DT 33 (64-1)[33] - My Network TV HD - http://www.wb64.net/

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Low Power Digital Stations On air


LPTV DTV Stations

WOTH-LD 47 (25-x) - IND - "The Other channel" - http://www.wbqc.com/woth/

LP DTV Translators

W20CT-D (38-x) KET LP DTV Translator, Augusta, KY - http://www.ket.org/dtv
W23DM-D (52-x) KET LP DTV translator, Falmouth KY - http://www.ket.org/dtv

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Other Info :
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WKRC-DT CW subchannel note :

WKRC-DT offers CW network programming on a SD multicast subchannel.

CW HD programming is available OTA to Cincinnati viewers who can receive them from CW affiliate, WBDT-DT, Dayton. Unfortunetly, WBDT-DT's signal probably doesn't currently cover Cincinnati/N KY as well as the other Dayton stations. WBDT-DT 18 (remaps to 26.1) predicted service area map is here :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT628342.html

Compare to WDTN-DT's(NBC HD Dayton) service area :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT617874.html

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Hours of operation notes:

WCET-TV/DT usual operating schedule OTA is on air from approx 6:30 am to 1am or so, off air between about 1am~6:30am --- generally the same on-air schedule as their analog station. On some nights(Thur~Sat I believe) however, they do remain on air 24/7.

As of 8/07, All other DTV+Analog stations in Cincinnati area generally currently operate 24/7. Except when off-air(usually rarely) for maintancence/upgrades or "problems" such as power outages/etc.

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Cincinnati area low power stations info (these are currently analog only) :

WBQC-CA 38 Cincinnati - Ind. - http://www.wbqc.com - In August 2007, FCC granted WBQC a Construction permit for Digital companion channel 20 -- 15Kw ERP from WCPO tower. -- NOTE/update: as of 11/17/08 WBQC's programming is now available on Digital WOTH-LD 25.2 .. and they have currently rebranded to "WKRP-TV", although the callsign apparently legally remains "WBQC-CA" ...

W36DG 36 - Low power TBN Translator - Note : W36DG filed a digital Flash cut application with FCC in April 2006, which was Granted by FCC in October, 2006.

W27AT , has A current Construction permit for a analog facility on channel 27 with Columbia, IN as Community of license("venture technoligies"), update, although the analog CP exipred in Early 2007 and was later dismissed by FCC - In October 2006 they have also filed for Construction Permit(CP) for a DTV facility on Channel 6 - 300 Watts, Directional antenna with a coverage area Including Southwest Ohio and portions of Eastern Indiana - The DTV application specifies a transmitting location Just South of Oxford, Ohio instead of near Connersville, IN as is the case with the analog station's current(well "expired") construction permit. AFAIK, the analog station is not on the air yet.

W17AY (Tranquility Community Church), Seaman, OH - No DTV applications filed as of yet.

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Tower/Coverage area notes:

WXIX, WLWT/WCET, WCPO and WKRC towers are located near Downtown Cincinnati. WXIX tower a bit west of downtown, WLWT/WCET in Clifton, and WCPO/WKRC towers a Bit East of Downtown Near I-71. WPTO-DT is transmitting from WXIX tower, while their analog station transmits from Oxford, the other digital stations in the area transmit off same tower as their analog station. WLWT/WCET share the same tower, WBQC-CA+WOTH-LP broadcast from WCPO's tower.

WSTR tower is a few Miles North of Downtown, WCVN tower is in Taylor Mill KY. W36DG 36's transmits from a tower location not far from WSTR's "Star Tower".

For the most part, the Cincinnati/N KY area DTV/Analog stations generally have around a 55-65 Mile radius coverage area or so, exceptions being:

WCVN-DT (General Coverage area around 30~45 Miles or so) and
The Low power stations, whose coverage area varies greatly depending upon their purpose .. The KET LP translators for instance are designed to serve very small areas which aren't covered well by the Full Power KET stations, while WBQC/WOTH coverage area reaches out 30~45 miles or so ....

WKOI Note :

WKOI Tower is Between Oxford+Trenton Ohio, some 30 Miles SSE of their Community of License, Richmond, IN. Since Richmond is in Dayton market, It is considered to be a Dayton market station. Note WKOI went Full Power in Mid-september 2005, and as of 11/08, as as been the case for quite a while currently offers 5 Multicast SD channels/No HD. More info here :

http://www.tbn.org/index.php/7/52.html

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Since Dayton TV/DTV/HD stations are also often receivable from Cincinnati area and vice versa, Dayton/Cincinnati area folks may also find the Dayton Thread on AVSforum useful, it is located here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=136336

Hi, I am new to the hdtv world and just got my sony 65" XBR hooked up. I am wondering what the best antenna for hd is. All hd channels work for me ( all that my OTA reciever picks up that is ) except channel 12.1 it works but has some glitches in it. I am in between Batavia and Milford. Thx

Wayne,

What antenna make/model are you using currently, where is it mounted/placed(indoors/outdoors/attic/etc), and are you using a amp/preamp ?

Finding a "sweet spot" for your antenna is often very important, oftentimes just moving it a little sideways, or up/down can make a big difference - Proper antenna aiming is also important. Hopefully you were able to adjust your antenna a little and are presently enjoying the HD SEC game on 12-1(WKRC-DT) or, 41-1, WHIO-DT CBS Dayton ...

Not to say you can't get good reception with an indoor antenna/etc in any given circumstance, but, What is usually best (for DTV/HD or analog TV reception) is a directional antenna of conventional design mounted outdoors as high as is reasonably possible, and aimed towards the broadcast towers.

If your antenna is indoors, oftentimes the best place for a "indoor type" antenna is near a window that faces the towers(some types of insulated glass can be a problem though), some folks have had good luck using outdoor antennas in their attic. Basement is not a good place for an antenna.

No such thing as a "HD antenna", BTW, if you see antennas advertised as "for HD", it's marketing hype ... DTV stations use the same frequencies/channels(just "different ones" in any given area") as "old fashioned" analogs TV stations, it doesn't matter to the antenna how the signal is modulated(which is different for DTV than analog).

Anyhow, ABC digital HD In Cincy is on Ch 10 VHF, the rest of the digital/HD stations presently are on UHF, so an antenna(or antennas) designed for both VHF and UHF is probably a good idea, especially since it's fairly likely other stations will be moving to VHF after analog shut off time. Sometimes, however, UHF only antennas will also work "well enough" for VHF Ch 7-13(not usually so much for ch 2-6) if you're close enough and getting a good enough signal.

From your area, Most of the Cincy Towers would be West of your location, with WSTR tower being to the WNW, and WCVN in N KY to the WSW, all those being within 14~18 miles of your location. Hopefully, you should be able to get all the Cincy stations on one heading, but you might not want to get "too directional" with your antenna choice. Dayton stations are 40 miles North of your location, and you'd probably need a rotor, or 2nd antenna on seperate feedline to receive those -- Probably best to try a single antenna via "manual antenna aiming" first to see what you get before buying a rotor, or second antenna/feedline/etc.

I also know the area you are in has signifincantly hilly terrain in spots, so it's also possible hills(especially nearby ones) in the signal path's could be an especially big issue for you, depending upon your exact location and if you are in a relatively low spot for that area.

Punch in your address/etc. at the following site, and it should give you a good idea of which stations you should be able to receive, it will also recommend what sort of antenna you should use(you might want to go a step or two up from their antenna recomendation however):

http://www.antennaweb.org

Good luck, and let us know how it goes,

While we're near the top of the thread, here's a handy reference of phone numbers you can call when someone misses an HD switch. Be nice and ask them to pass the message to the control room. Some will connect you, but most all of them will pass the message.

WXIX-DT 19/29 Assignment Desk 513-421-0119
WCPO-DT 9/10 Newsroom 513-852-4071*
WKRC-DT 12/31 Newsroom 513-763-5422



* If the reason they're not in HD is because there's a weather bug or school closing list up, there's probably little they can do about it since that's how the integrated switcher is designed. It takes a second tech to fix that and there's rarely a second tech on duty.

from Nitewatchman
Here are the Dayton #'s :

WHIO-DT
News Hotline(Newsroom) - 937-259-2237
Newsroom Fax - 937-259-2005
Switchboard - M-F 9-5 : 937-259-2111

WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT

Newsroom 937-268-9533
Main# 937-263-2662
Fax# 937-268-2332

WDTN-DT:
Phone: (937) 293-2101
Fax: (937) 294-6542
Newsroom: (937) 293-5121
Switchboard: (937) 296-7105

WPTD-DT:
switchboard phone (937) 220-1600
fax (937) 220-1642

Their CE's phone #/etc. is on their website as well.

WBDT-DT
Ph. 937-384-9226
Fax. 937-384-7392

They also have this on their website:

Questions regarding reception of Dayton's WB can be directed to (937) 384-9226 or by writing to ENGINEERING c/o Dayton's WB, 2589 Corporate Place, Miamisburg, OH 45342.


E-mail me with additions or changes and I'll edit them into this post so it stays near the top: doctordon@prodigy.net

Doc

For those who may be interested, just received the following response from WKRC-DT's Asst. DOE concerning the amount of bandwidth they are allocating to CBS HD :

The bandwidth used of CBS is 15 Mb/s.

This was in response to my comments below, which I sent to the engineering address via the drop down box on WKRC website(note, I do believe WBNS-DT CBS Columbus allocates the entire bandwidth possible to HD(19.39mb/s minus PSIP/audio/etc) :

Hello,

I was wondering, how much Data bandwidth are you allocating to CBS HD on WKRC-DT?

The reason I'm asking is, compression artifacts seem to be a problem during HD with fast action/fast motion, such as during Today's UGA VS SC SEC game In HD, as is also the case with WHIO-DT, CBS Dayton. However, CBS HD from WBNS-DT, CBS Columbus, Ohio(when I can get them) Looks much better, Compression artifact free, and noticably sharper or clearer, the latter is even evident during less demanding HD source material.

I understand it could be an encoding issue/etc, but It doesn't look like your allocation 17mb/s+ to HD video, instead it looks more like 14-15mb/s or less, which isn't enough for 1080i HD.

As long as I'm asking questions, Also, What happened to the Paramount HD One Movies? We really enjoyed those here, Friday's once a Month, but haven't seen a HD One movie since April or so.

Also, Thanks much for the WEBN fireworks in HD last couple of years.

Thanks,

Hey guys,

I like the way this one is starting off already! I've done some comparison between OTA via the DTC-100 and my newly acquired Pioneer HD box. The Pioneer unit has much darker output on the components and the SD images don't look as crisp at their OTA counterparts on the DTC-100. I would say that the HD is on par resolution wise, but the darker image of the Pioneer box makes it seem less sharp.

According to TWC, they simply pass the signal on, so I guess the output brightness/contrast is controlled by the Pioneer box. I'd love to get into the service menu on this thing and adjust some of the settings.

I'm still using a pair of rabbit ears for my OTA and I usually don't get WKOI-DT 39.

I've gotten used to acquiring the off-air-guides, but I definitely don't depend on their PSIP information for times....differences of 15 minutes between some!

Troy

Troy,

Interesting report, Thanks! -- Also, would like to take the oppurtunity to thank you and other "pioneering" Cincy/Dayton area AVSforum members for your 2000-2001 era posts. I found those posts very useful back in Fall 2001 when I was researching the DTV/HD situation in the area. I've been enjoying HD for almost 2 Years now! How things have changed since "way back when" we were waiting for WLWT-DT to pass through NBC HD ...

I'm still in "guides off" mode on the DTC-100 here, it's been a while since I turned it on so I'll have to do so sometime soon to see what I'm missing these days.

Also, That's excellent you have seen WKOI-DT at all! Their current STA's directional antenna pattern indicates they don't send much power(about 1,000watts ERP at most) towards Cincy, FCC polar plot here :
http://www.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/polarplot?temp=44643&rotate=0000&p0=.910&p10=.820&p20=.710&p30=.610&p40=.520&p50=.440&p60=.370&p70=.320&p80=.270&p90=.220&p100=.170&p110=.120&p120=.090&p130=.100&p140=.150&p150=.200&p160=.240&p170=.200&p180=.150&p190=.100&p200=.090&p210=.120&p220=.170&p230=.220&p240=.270&p250=.320&p260=.370&p270=.440&p280=.520&p290=.610&p300=.710&p310=.820&p320=.910&p330=.970&p340=****&p350=.970

I'm only 12 Miles ENE of WKOI-DT tower, They should send about 1800 Watts ERP in my direction. The only time I can see them and just barely so(hi-gain antenna w/rotor+preamp tower mounted 38 feet above ground) is when the leaves are off trees. Being down in a small, steep and very forested valley, I do have buku terrain and tree/leaves problems in that direction which aren't as much of an issue towards the other Dayton/Cincy towers. I'd guess if their(or my) antenna were a little higher, it could see over the hills near me, and I'd get much better results from them.

Also, FWIW, I've tried it just for the fun of it, and I can get decent reception from my location North of Middletown of most of the Cincy(27~32 Miles) and Dayton(12~14 miles) digitals with "rabbit ears/.99 cent UHF "bowtie" placed near a 2nd story window facing the towers involved(E window for Dayton, S window for Cincy).

For the indoor test, I used a el cheapo RS distribution amp, for the ~50' of coax run to the DTC-100 downstairs. It was needed, as the only thing that I received above a lock w/o the amp was WKRC-DT/WRGT-DT/WDTN-DT/WPTD-DT. WLWT-DT and WCPO-DT came awfully close to locking w/o amp though. I didn't actually try it for any extended period of time to see what the dropout situation was, although I didn't see any dropouts for the couple of hours I was doing the indoor test.

The only ones I couldn't get from indoors were WKOI-DT, WCVN-DT(39 Miles) and WSTR-DT(27 Miles - WSTR-DT was close to locking). On the DTC-100, WKRC-DT gave readings of 82, WLWT-DT=76, the rest ranged between 60~76 with quite steady readings. No indication of a signal at all from WKOI-DT or WCVN-DT.

I also tried it before some of the newer stations came on the air from the attic(even with a better antenna - 25el UHF Yagi), from the settop(rabbit ears) and away from the windows, and get pretty much nothing from there except WRGT-DT Fox Dayton from the settop through 4 walls(downstairs-no amp, 3' feedline run) and pretty much horrendous analog signals everywhere except near the windows, and analogs don't look too good from there, either.

Getting good analog reception here has never been easy, which is why I already had a decent outdoor antenna setup before "upgrading" to DTV. I Don't have the equipment to properly measure it, but from what I noticed during the indoor tests I'd think I'm probably getting just barely enough signal for decent DTV reception from indoors, and that I'm getting at least 20~30db more signal from the outdoor antenna setup due to add'l gain of antenna, better placement of antenna and lack of attuenation of signal caused by having antenna indoors. Also, in addition to pulling in more stations I'd think in my situation the outdoor setup is at least also providing some extra "insurance" against dropouts/etc.

Of course, with the outdoor antenna I get perfect, drop-out free reception of all 14 Dayton/Cincy Digitals except *WKOI-DT. Seeing the Lexington Analogs and Columbus Analogs/Digitals is quite common at night/early morning in Spring/summer/fall(when atmosphere cooperates, I've also seen DTV stations from as far as 300 Miles), as well as excellent NTSC quality from the analogs, with just some snow on some of the Low power stations+WCVN.

* - Which is fine too when leaves are off or there isn't too much wind in wintertime -- In which case it's good reception from WKOI-DT with 40~46 readings from the DTC-100 -- In the Summertime, it doesn't even register on the DTC-100, and gives about 8%-20% readings on the Zenith HDV420 box. I've noticed this starting to creep back up in the last couple of weeks with some of the leaves falling off the trees.

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Probably more than anyone wanted to know, but hopefully this can give folks an idea of how easy getting DTV reception can be, while at the same time being an indication of how we can't really "predict" how easily reception will work for anyone in any given circumstance/specific location/etc, or what sort of antenna(or indoor/outdoor) will work "well enough" in any given situation.

I can't seem to get WLWT tonight! It was fine over the weekend....Is anyone else having problems?

When I view my signal strength meter it goes from 100% to 0% never being able to lock onto the signal. I receive DT-29 and DT-35 just fine!

Is it me or is the station having problems?

Thanks,
John

I'm showing normal signal level on WLWT-DT at 9:05 PM. The high winds over the weekend re-align your antenna?

Al

Antenna is in the attic. I watched it all day Saturday / Sunday with 100% signal but today it is really wierd. I receive DT-29 / DT-31 at 90% with NO problems.....Oh well that's the way it goes with HD.

Thanks,
John

Thought I'd chime in with a visual signal report from over here,using an RCA ATSC11 receiver.WLWT looks good.The only stations missing are the usual one's;DT-41 and DT-30.Too much interference from other "locals".

http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/TheViewFromHere/

http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/doc/

No problems with WLWT-DT here, and things seem pretty "normal" here for this time of year/day. Perhaps getting a bit more than normal from Columbus. Looked up towards Lima, and didn't see anything from Lima analogs 44 or 35. I Rarely do see any hints of WLIO 35 Lima making it through WLWT-DT 35 snow however.

Attached below are screenshots of a few stations from here tonight - Sorry, I can't put channel #'s in with the HDV420 signal quality meter on screen :

Upper left - WBNS-DT 21(10-1) Columbus(78 miles) at signoff tonight after Letterman --

The "big" meter Just below WBNS-DT screenshot is what I'm getting(besides a blank screen) on Ch. 39 with antenna aimed at WKOI-DT 39(12 Miles)

Upper Right is WTTE 28 Analog Columbus - 78 Miles

Lower Left is WTVQ 36 Lexington analog - (107 Miles) - Things aren't quite good enough to see both WLEX 18 and WBDT-DT 18 at the same time tonight ...

Lower Right is WCVN-DT 24(54-3) (39 Miles), my weakest "dead band" local Digital(besides WKOI-DT).

Certianly, I would not be seeing anything much from stations in these pics except a good signal from WCVN-DT and hint of signal from WKOI-DT under completely "dead band" condtions.

Looking for any suggestions as several people have confirmed their signal strength to be "NORMAL" for WLWT-DT. The thing that bothers me and where I need anyone's suggestions is DT-29.1, 33.1 and 31.1 are all being received in the upper 90's.

Any suggestions?

John

John,

Can you move that antenna slightly one direction or the other? Your bouncing meter sounds like what my receiver does when my antenna is slightly off-target.

Paul

Paul,

I can try that but it's not easy as my antenna is mounted in the attic! The thing that bothers me is I watched this channel all weekend with NO problems. I guess I've seen other problems just as weird as this one.

I'll drag a small TV to the attic and try to tweak tonight. At least the weather has cooled down so going up there is not all that bad just a hassle taking the TV with me.

Thanks,
John

John..
The changing weather would have me checking my connections. It's entirely possible for a bad connection to affect one freqency more than others, especially if moisture (the wind DID blow a bit of rain around, this weekend) is involved.

Could be that the weather is causing some ducting of interfering frequencies that aren't normally there. Nitewatchman can give you a better handle on that than I can.

While 35 is okay for me, 33 (WB 64) is breaking up quite a bit, this afternoon, which is what leads me to the second conclusion.

Doc

John,

I also had a similar problem with WCPO-DT 10. It either came in gangbusters or bounced all over the place. After talking with Nitewatchman, I noticed a herringbone pattern on analog WCPO (9) which is indicative of FM interference. I installed an FM trap and although it didn't cure it completely, I get a lock most of the time now.

Good luck in the attic.

Paul

Not seeing any enhanced propagation via Tropo scatter or ducting today, in fact things are pretty much as dead as they get. Just seeing all 34 of the Cincy/Dayton analog/digital stations(all within 40 Miles of my location)except WKOI-DT, and as is usual also seeing WAVE 3 Louisville/WCMH Columbus, although they are weaker than usual. Everything else is pretty much mostly "snow", as one would usually expect for this time of day where signals beyond the limit of Curvature of Earth or terrain limited directions are concerned .....

John,

I suppose WLIO 35 Lima could potentially be a co-channel interference(CCI) issue for you concerning WLWT-DT. However, I believe you are using a good, directional antenna(CM4228 I Believe), Aimed at Cincy, and given the distance to Lima from your location I'd expect any CCI problem from them to be rare(or at least occasional and variable), although, certianly they could be adding a little "noise" off the side of the antenna.

As others have indicated, "tweaking" your antenna's position, checking connections/etc/etc would probably be a good thing to try. But to make sure these sort's of "weird problems" don't occur again, or occur mininally, I think you might have to end up doing more to improve your antenna setup if you want good, reliable reception of the Cincy DTV stations from your location. Best way to try to accomplish this I think would be to get your antenna outside.

If I recall correctly, you're in Xenia, approx. 50 miles from WLWT/WCET tower and are using a 8-bay bowtie in the attic -- If this is the case, then I think it is quite likely you are dealing with weak signals from Cincinnati, and it could be one of many, or many factors in combination which are causing your problem.

A couple of the factors especially troublesome when a weak signal is involved could be:

1.) Interference issues, of which there are many such as:
a.) Co-Channel interference - As mentioned above --

b.) Electrical interference/impulse noise - While this is more of a problem generally on VHF(Lo-VHF ch 2-6 particlarly), it can be a problem as well on UHF, and especially so if you're dealing with a weak signal. Lightning, vehicle ignition systems, Appliances in your house, powerline "slop" among other things can produce this type of interference. If you have a problem with this, you may be able to detect it as "static" or sparkles/etc. on analog signals, especially weaker ones.

2.) A change in the "Multipath" conditions(such as change when leaves are falling off trees/etc).

A couple of points:

#1) You say you're getting high "numbers" on your receiver's meter. Keep in mind, with some rare exceptions(such as S/N+AGC readings on a Hauppage Win-DTV card) Our receivers meters DO NOT measure signal strength, they can be thought of as a "signal quality" reading and measure things such as "error rate", and are implemented on the Datastream, not the RF signal itself. Therefore, a fairly weak signal just above the threshold for good DTV reception(15.3db of signal over noise(S/N)) can show high numbers on your receiver, just as an actually stronger signal would. Still, this weak signal is more susceptible to dropouts, "fluctuating meter readings", involving such issues as Interference, and multipath which your receiver's equalizer can't correct for/etc/etc.

#2) Attics(or indoors for that matter) are NOT a good place to put antennas, this is probably especially true when you are trying to pull in signals from 50 miles from the transmitter, but this applies in nearly all circumstances. Not to say that a indoor/attic antenna won't work "well enough" in any given circumstance, but in general it isn't a good idea. From indoors, putting your antenna near a window that faces the towers is often best. Good info on why attics aren't a good idea are described in the first few paragraphs at following link, and some of the issues mentioned here may very likely be things you are dealing with :

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/stacking.html

Furthermore, excellent info on antennas and reception/interference issues/etc/etc can be found throughout this site, here is link to main page:

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennadex.html

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Originally posted by Jon_E_R
I guess I've seen other problems just as weird as this one.


FWIW, I can count on my fingers the number of reception related droputs I've seen in the last two years from the 13 Dayton/Cincy digital stations I receive pretty much perfectly at all times .

I was able to detirmine These few dropouts were due to either very nearby lightning strikes, or very rare, "intense" co-channel interference. It's rare for me to see even a single reception related dropout from any of these stations over a 4-6 month period of time or so. When co-channel interference has been a factor, in those instances, In addition to getting lower than normal(and fluctuating readings) from the DTV receiver's "signal quality meter", I could actually receive the interfering station quite well on a analog, non-screen blanking TV, and in fact, have often seen an analog station "through" one of the local digitals without the interfering station causing any dropout problems to the local digital station involved.

I would speculate that, in addition to being in a location with 14 digital, and 20 analog stations currently on air, all within 40 Miles of my location and most with strong signals ---- using directional, outdoor antennas aimed at the towers is the main reason why I don't really experience reception related problems here.

Anyhow, Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

Jeff,

I appreciate your help the thing that frustrates me is I watched DT-35 all weekend without a single problem. Now the signal bounces like a ball. I'm going into the attic to adjust the antenna but what bothers me is channel 12 and 19 are rock solid so I'm not sure what kind of adjustment to make?

Thanks Everyone,
John

John..
12 and 19 are in different locations than 5, (even from your location) so it's entirely possible to have an antenna problem that affects 5 but not the others. I'd still bet on the cold I know I need to check mine. Changes in temperature cause it to shift a little and half an inch makes all the difference to me.

Doc

Yes, as Doc mentioned, towers are in different locations but from your distance the headings are so similar I'd think the way to adjust it would be to move the antenna around the attic to try to find a "sweet spot" for all of the stations you want to receive(if possible) in addition to "tweaking" the antenna aiming.

Unfortuntely, the frequnecy is quite different, but When you take the small TV in the attic, WCET 48 Analog might be a good one to try to adjust it with, as WCET broadcasts off same tower as WLWT. Also, from your location, WLWT/WCET tower would be the one "in the middle", between towers for 12/9/54 a couple degrees or so to the Left, and 19/64 a couple of degrees to the Right ..Of course, taking your DTV receiver into the attic with the small TV, or having a helper at the receiver and a couple of those 2-way FRS radios can help, too as the analogs might not tell you everything you need to know ...

Also along the lines of what Doc is getting at I think, the "stuff" that is in or around your attic(even roof/etc) which is inevitably "connected" to your antenna as mentioned in the attic info at link I provided above also can be frequency specific, as can multipath problems and some interference issues. Or maybe your cat got into the attic or something and ran into your antenna ;-)

I do wonder:

#1). If you've ever seen this problem before on WLWT-DT, and in General, how "reliable" has your reception of WLWT-DT has been in the past, and, hhave you noticed any "patterns"(such as seasonal/etc) that seem to correspond to reception problems with WLWT?

#2). How is your reception of WCET-DT 34(48-x) ?

WCET-DT also broadcast from WLWT/WCET tower from about the same height at WLWT-DT, and are operating at a power level very similar to WXIX-DT(229 KW ERP). While I wouldn't really think you would be having a 1st adjacent channel selectivity/Sensitivity issue between WCET-DT/WLWT-DT from your location given their fairly similar power levels(WLWT-DT 512 KW ERP - WCET-DT 215KW ERP presently)/etc, it is something to think about I suppose.

I'm(and we) of course are just grasping at straws here and trying to "cover the basics" and most common "probabilities" given what we know of your location/setup/etc. But, certianly, there are many other possible factors which may be involved which we haven't brought up -- such as: Other interference issues which may be causing Tuner overload/desense problems, which could even be originating from a nearby, strong signal which isn't even using TV channel frequencies.

It seems unlikely I think at this point, but I suppose it's also possible it might not even be a reception issue, and may be an issue on the Transmission side of things which could perhaps be only affecting certian models of receivers. What makes this seem especially unlikely though is that I don't think the "fluctuating meter syndrome" you are seeing has ever been reported to just affect certian receivers, and, It doesn't seem like anyone else so far has reported a change.

----------------------------------------------------------

I can report though that I just had something "weird" happen on the Zenith HDV420 box, something I've only seen happen once or twice before, and which certianly may very likely have nothing to do with the station it was tuned to :

I tuned to WLWT-DT sometime earlier this afternoon/evening on the HDV420, and just noticed after dinner that the Receiver Locked up completely! I had to reset it, and so far since then it is working fine. Judging by the Captioning data still on screen, it must have happened during NBC news.

Jeff,

I adjusted the antenna ever so slightly towards Cincy but not very much as I do not want to effect my Dayton reception.

Murphy's law has it as WLWT comes in near 100% tonight on the digital receiver....I did take a line from the digital receiver into the attic so I could adjust the digital signal not the analog.

I'll just see how it goes and live with what I get!

Thanks for your help!
John

Initially, John forgot to mention that he's in Xenia, the windy city, the Bermuda Triangle of Ohio! :)

LOL! I think we should buy that Murphy guy a one trip ticket to the moon ;-)

He was really active in Sept., among some of the places he visited were WDTN, WXIX, Telstar 4 Sat., and Jon's attic ....

Paul,

My house was 50% demolished in the 2000 tornado which gave me an opportunity to mount my attic antennas outside or at least outside until the new roof was put back on the frame.

I watched WLWT (DT-31) last night with NO drops.

Another wierd thing about this is the fact I originally installed this antenna back in 2000 and pointed it probably close to where it is now (Cincy) and I had NO problems receiving all the Cincy stations except for DT-10 (9). This was before any Dayton stations were broadcasting. Around six months ago my Sony HD-100 stop receiving ALL the Cincy stations. I found nothing wrong with the unit so I rotated the antenna towards Dayton as most of those stations had come on-line so I didn't see much difference if my antenna was pointed at Dayton or Cincinnati. The one thing I missed was Fox Widescreen which the Dayton station does not broadcast in but the Cincy chnanel does so I rediredted my antenna back towards Cincy last week. I prefer the Cincy stations as they appear to be more experienced and committed to the HD cause. I also believe the picture quality from Cincy is a little better than Dayton.

Anyways everything is working properly except I no longer can receive DT-51.1 (22) from Dayton due to antenna direction. That is why it is important to receive DT-31 (5) from Cincy as this my only NBC feed.

I know it would be better to have the antennas outside away from all my attic stuff but I do not want an antenna on my house. My attic has '2' eigth foot VHF/UHF antennas for local reception on '2' different TV's and of course my 8 bay channel master UHF digital antenna.

Thanks for everyones help / advice
John

Jon,

You might still be getting 51.1, as WKEF-DT 51 Has been on air, but has been in "Blank Screen mode" on 51.1 since sometime yesterday -- SD sub 51.2 is fine.

Update: 11:20am -- Figures --- As soon as I said that they finally got video back up on 51.1 (at least for now)

Oh, and I think you meant DT-35(5-1 remap) for WLWT-DT(NBC), WKRC-DT(CBS) is on 31(12-1 remap) ;-)

Hello all,

I'm relatively new to HDTV and the info provided here has been invaluable.

I live in Symmes Twp just south of Loveland. I have an outdoor antenna on a rotor and receive WLWT-DT and WKRC-DT at 100%, WCET-ET at 93%, WCPO-DT and WKRC-DT at 77% and cannot receive WSTR-DT at all (sometimes get a 22% but it never locks). Currently the coax runs to a Radio Shack distribution amp and is split three ways--one to the Samsung TS160 and two cables to the TV so I can use split screen. Would I benefit from mounting a pre-amp on the antenna mast? If I do that, should I still run the cable coming from the amp for the pre-amp to the distribution amp or just use a splitter? The antenna is mounted on the back of the house, which faces south and the antenna barely clears the peak--I didn't think that would be a problem since the antenna is orientated toward the south, but would I have any success picking up the Dayton stations if I was able to increase the height a few inches? On analog channel 64, I'm able to get a picture, but it's very poor quality--I don't watch ch 64 at all, but the same was true of Channel 19 a few years ago and I find myself watching that station more and more.
Thanks in advance for your advice.

jkeane,

What sort(make/model) of antenna are you using?

First off, from your location your antenna shouldn't be aimed South, it Should be aimed WSW for digital/analog WKRC/WCPO/WLWT/WCET/WXIX(+analog 25+38), Pretty much West for WSTR digital/analog(+analog 61), and Southwest for WCVN digital/analog. Since the side of your antenna is likely aimed right at WSTR's tower, that might explain why you are not seeing the DT, and why the analog looks so bad.

It's about a 40 degree difference in bearing between WCVN tower and WSTR tower from your location, with all the others right in the middle, if you aim at the middle(WSW), you'd only be 20 degrees off target for WCVN+WSTR, so It might be possible to good reception on one heading of all the Cincy/N KY digitals/analogs. WSTR digital might still be a bit of a problem for you though, and aiming right at them(West) might be a good idea if you want the best chance to receive them, as their directional antenna doesn't favor your direction(About 600~1000Watts or so depending upon your exact location - Compare that to 800,000watts from WKRC DT 31).

Also, For the Dayton stations(about 34 miles from your location), your antenna would need to be aimed pretty much North(~7 deg NNE). So, you can try it via "rotating by hand" first, but sounds like a Rotor(or mulitple antennas on seperate feedlines w/switch near the receiver/etc) would be something advantagous for your situation, you might even need to use different heading for WSTR than the rest of the Cincy stations. I certianly wouldn't count on being able to receive both Cincy+Dayton on one antenna heading from your location. Also in range for you would be WPTO 14(analog) Oxford, And WKOI(TBN), whose tower is also near oxford -- Both of those would be to the NW of your location.

BTW, I used intersection of Wards Corner+I-275 to find the direction you need to aim to Cincy/Dayton towers, you can get more precise info(corrected for magnetic deviation) by plugging in your address here : http://www.antennaweb.org

Proper antenna aiming of a good, directional antenna would be the first thing to try, but yes, it would be a good idea I think to get the antenna above the top of roof, too, at least for the Dayton stations which it sounds like are in direction of your roof peak. At least 4' above the roof is usually a good idea.

Concerning mast mount preamp, a good one would probably work better than the distribution amp you are using, but proper antenna aiming(and a good directional antenna) towards the towers involved is most important, and you might not need an amp/preamp at all. You most defintely would not want to use both the mast mount preamp+the distribution amp, instead you would just use a splitter in place of the distribution amp.

Unless you have a terrain issue, with proper antenna aiming and a decent directional antenna antenna I'd think you should be able to get all the Cincinnati stations, and all, or at least most of the Dayton stations.

Hope this helps, Let us know how it goes+good luck,

Jeff--

Thank you for your quick and comprehensive reply.

I am using a Radio Shack directional VHF/UHF antenna I put on the roof six years ago before Directv had the locals. I don't know the model, but I remember it had something like a 65 mile range.

I do have the antenna on a rotor so I've been experimenting with the various headings. You were close on the Wards Corner location--I live off the Loveland-Indian Hill exit.

I can only raise the antenna a few inches but I'll try the mast mounted pre-amp and ditch the distribution amp.

Thanks, again.

Jack Keane

Oh, one other thing I forgot to mention, you would want to put the power inserter for the mast-mount preamp between the preamp and splitter, not after the splitter. Channel Master, Blonder-Tongue and Winegaurd make good preamps, in general, the ones from Radio Shack aren't so great.

Also, looks like your at least 12~14 miles from the nearest TV transmitter, so preamp overload probably isn't going to be too much of an issue for you, but, keep in mind, preamps can overload(Since they are very broadband amplifiers, they can be overloaded from any nearby source of strong signal, might not be on TV frequencies), or can also help cause the front end of your tuner to overload, and "bascially" spread unwanted "noise" on TV channels you want to receive.

This is one of the reasons why if your reception is good without a preamp/amp, a preamp might not help as much(or any, as it might actually hurt) as finding a "sweet spot" for your antenna, or a better antenna might. On the other hand, a preamp might work well in your situation to recover the losses from splitting the signal/feedline loss/etc, I do know a "medium~high gain"/Low noise preamp works well here for those reasons.

On the antenna, I'm guessing you're using the RS VU-75 or VU-90 -- Should work fine for the most part for Cincy/n ky, except perhaps the Low power your getting sent your way from WSTR-DT, and might not give you the best quality possible on Analogs 25, 38+61/etc. But, it might not be enough for Dayton, especially the UHF stations, and especially the ones on the higher channels.

BTW, Those mileage figures really mean nothing, it's the gain/directivity of the antenna on the frequencies(channels) involved that is important. The antenna you are using probably doesn't work as well(or as "far") generally on UHF as it does on VHF, for example.

Curvature of the Earth(and terrain/building blockage/etc.) are the main limiting factor for VHF/UHF reception and around here, that generally means stations have max coverage range of 55-65 miles given their Tower heights -- Reception can still be a problem from closer than that from indoors, or if your in the "null" of a station's directional transmitting antenna's pattern(as is the case in your situation with WSTR-DT), or if you have a hill, or building/etc. in the signal path to towers which your antenna can't "see" over very well - The latter being particularly more of a problem the higher the frequency(channel).

I would also speculate that a terrain(or other signal blockage issue) may be involved if it is the case that your seeing better results when antenna isn't aimed right at the towers involved. In which case raising your antenna a little, or even finding a "sweet spot" by moving antenna horizontally(Which is certianly difficult if antenna is mounted on chimney/etc!) can make a big difference. Or, amp/preamp overload could also be an issue that might make stations seem to come in better if antenna isn't aimed at their tower, and some of those RS amps do seem to have a reputation for amplifing "noise" as much as, or more than signal.

Update: Would Probably also be a good idea to check condition of your coax/Connections when you add the mast mount preamp ... Especially if moisture has gotten inside the Coax(or if it is "crimped somewhere/etc), it can seriously degrade performance, especially on the Higher UHF channels. RG-6 Coax does have a tad less loss than RG-59, with RG-11 being the lowest loss 75Ohm Coax -- But, RG-6 is generally preferred as RG-11 is larger in diameter, requires relatively expensive connectors and is more difficult to work with .. Generally, most folks would use RG-11 if a long feedline run of say, 300~500 feet or more.

Best to put the preamp as close to antenna as is possible, if you use a preamp with 300 ohm input(s), you'll need a short piece of good, 300 Ohm twinlead to connect antenna to preamp. With 75 ohm input on preamp, you'd use balun/matching transformer hooked to antenna and a short piece of Coax with F-Connectors on each end. Don't forget to add a "drip loop" to keep water from running into preamp input connection, and to seal up the connections to keep water out :-)

---------------------------------------------

Let's hope the first couple pages of this thread can also help others with their antenna/reception related questions ;-)

One of my co-workers is reporting that, as predicted, Insight Cable of Northern KY has added to their HD roster beginning this month. He can confirm KET, CET, WCPO-DT and BravoHD. He says some other channel positions have shown up on his STB and that he thinks that's where ESPN-HD is going to turn up, but it's not there, yet. Since I'm on D* for my HD and not Insight (right now, anyway), I can't give you any more than that.

Doc

Insight Cable of Northern KY has added to their HD roster beginning this month.

That's good to hear. I have a friend who I inducted into home theater that has a nice 42" HD set and has never seen HD in his home!!!!!

It's all in the budget really, I've even considered taking my DTC-100 over his house but he doesn't have a VGA or RGBHV input and without those or the RCA or Audio Authority transcoder we're SOL.

So I told him about TWC here in Cincy and the HD offerings they have. I had him check with Insight and at the time he checked they didn't have HD to offer. I'll have to let him know.

I guess it should be time to upgrade antennas. I actually have the mounting already on my roof from the previous owner and the copper ground wire is already run from the mount. I really only use the DTC-100 for comparison. I actually watch all of my HD through TW, it's more convenient and with my rabbit ears I get frequent dropouts. I guess after my lil review, I should opt more for the DTC because it offers a better picture overall.

I think if I did upgrade to a roof mount, I'd get just about everything offered in the Cincy area. I'm in Springdale, near Tri-County mall and I have a nice clearing pretty much all around.

Anybody here doing 720p front projection?

Troy

Troy..
You might get Cincy AND Dayton. If I can do it from my attic in N. Ky, Springdale ought to be a piece of a cake.. if you're not in a valley.

Doc

Originally posted by Troy LaMont
[B]Hey guys,

I like the way this one is starting off already! I've done some comparison between OTA via the DTC-100 and my newly acquired Pioneer HD box.

Troy,

Since when is TWC using a Pioneer box ? What's the model number on the box ? I'm still using a Scientific Atlanta 3100HD. I was hoping that TWC would eventually upgrade to the Pace DC-550 because it is worlds ahead of the Scientific Atlanta piece of junk.

-MarcW

For a while now. It's a Pioneer Voyager 3510HD (TWC in LA says it's a Voyager 3500HD for some reason). Folks have been having problems hooking up the 3510's DVI port out to some HD sets, including Samsung DLP sets -- see this thread for more info: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=279674

Thanks Craig.

I picked up a Pioneer box over the weekend. The picture seems to be a tad on the dark side but so far this box has been much better than the 3100. No more audio breakups, ratio control and the ability to use the guide on HD channels. I'm happy for now =)

-MarcW

Insight cable update: WCPO-DT has disappeared from the lineup. My subscribing co-worker called and they told him there was a bugaboo with the carriage contract. So, still no MNF in HD for northern KY for the moment (except, of course, for those of us with ATSC receivers <g>.

Doc

Tell me it ain't so! WLWT-DT has another sub with radar.

Paul

Oh, NO. There goes the only "pure" HDTV signal in town. On the plus side, they don't HAVE any HD sports for it to ruin.

Doc

Oh, no. My thoughts are : :(

Might be pretty low-bitrate, though. We'll see what happens during HD Leno/etc. I'll send them a note after I can take a good look at it during some "demanding HD" ...

2002 HD Winter Olympics and 2002 Triple Crown did Look awfully good on WLWT-DT ... Olympics didn't really look much different(if any) on WKEF-DT though -- 51.2 SD sub seemed to be very low bitrate at that time, however.

Say, maybe this is just so there'll be a radar feed to Tall Stacks. I'll see what I can find out unless someone beats me to it.

INSIGHT LINE-UP ON THE HD CONVERTER BOX

012 - C-SPAN (why is this here?)
750 - HBO HD
751 - Showtime HD
760 - WKRC (CBS)
761 - WLWT (NBC)
762 - WCPO (ABC)
763 - *
764 - KET1
765 - KET2
766 - KET3
767 - KET4 (Annenburg)
768 - CET
769 - CET (HD) (only on occasionally)
770 - CET (PBS kids)
771 - CET (PBS you)
772 - CET Plus
774 - Bravo HD+
775 - ESPN HD
776 - Discovery HD Theater
777 - HD Net
778 - HD Net Movies

COST
Currrent subscribers can get all this (except HBO and Showtime) for an additional $17.90 per month : digital box ($7.95), HD box ($2.00) and HD Pack (channels 774-778 for $7.95). :p To get the HBO HD and ShowtimeHD version you need to subscribe to the respective non-HD channel packs at ~$10 each (and pay for the digital box). Insight claims that you only get Bravo HD if you have the normal Bravo channel, but the HD channel comes through regardless.

If you are not a subscriber, basic service is 26 channels at $13.50 + taxes. I subscribe to their classic service (69 channels at $39/mo. + taxes). Taxes are ~$3.

Don't forget the one-time HD installation fee ~$40.

[U]CONVERTER BOXES
They make you take the digital box ($7.95/mo.), but all it gives you is the channel guide, digital music channels 500-534 and their interactive services. The digital box has nothing to do with HD. The incoming cable signal gets split to each box (digital and HD), and each has its separate output to your TV. They refuse to let you have just the HD box ($2.00), citing that their plan is to go to a unified box that will cost $9.95, so you have to take and pay for both boxes .

[U]CABLE AMP
If your signal is split too many times, you may need a cable amp. Insight uses the Electroline models because they can also send a return signal needed for HD. They charge $40 + installation fee. I bought an Electroline EDA 2400 (4 outputs) on ebay and installed it myself. :)

WhoZep,

FYI, KET4 Has PBS HD/Widescreen per following schedule, Rest of the time it's CPB/Anneburg SD:

http://www.ket.org/dtv/programs.htm

Program Schedule For the other KET program services can be found under the "Watch" section of KET Website.

CET-HD Schedule(As well as schedule for the other WCET/WCET-DT programming services- PBSKids/"CET"/etc) Can be found under "print a schedule" on their website here - Monthly/weekly/etc. :

http://www.cetconnect.org/television/print.asp

Daily CET-HD HD/Widescreen Schedule(When they have it) can be found here:

http://www.cetconnect.org/television/schedule.asp?channel=2

WCET-DT HD schedule does show "PBS HD" Scheduled for 9pm tonight, If that's true, It might be HD Demo loop, as that is what is scheduled via nat'l PBS DT2A feed, although WCET-DT has HD timeshifting capability.

-----------------------

All,

Noticed that WXIX-DT is currently off Air -- Funny thing, after sending WKRC-DT a thank you for the HD-one Movie(Fatal Atrraction) Friday Night, I had also sent WXIX-DT a thank you note last night for being such a reliable source of (properly formatted) Fox Widescreen the last couple of weeks! Jinx alert!

Jeff/Nightwatchman,

If you want a consolidated HD schedule, you should definitely check out Excite (http://www.excite.com)

It is customizable to your ZIP code and they have added many of the HD channels added to Insight. See the screenshot below. I have Excite as my home page, and I also get news, favorite sports teams, local weather, TV listings, and a list of my upcoming favorite TV shows (they are the ones colored red, and there is an episode synopsis at the top of my page). It's awesome!!!! By the way, I did not ask Excite to display all the available HD channels (too many public TV subs). I had to use a pretty small Internet Explorer window because the forum only allows a 600x600 image (if it shows up at all - I can't see it in preview).

I Think the best one out there is this one, which is what I use :

http://www.titantv.com

Still, sometimes wrong for HD listings, and Especially so where the HD/PBS Widescreen listings from WCET-DT/WCVN-DT/WPTD-DT are concerned. They usually don't follow the national PBS DT2A HD feed which is usually listed via these sites.

Also, WKRC-DT has NEVER listed their Paramount's HDOne Movie Package HD Showings Anywhere that I've seen. When they show them, It's been first or 2nd Friday of month(usually) at 8pm.

This one is wrong sometimes too, but I think it's pretty good as a "one place listing" for HD :

http://www.hdtvgalaxy.com/broad.html

Update: Hmm, interesting .. Took going to TWC Middletown's Digital cable lineup, but Noticed that Excite does have WCET-DT's HD scheudle properly listed tonight, as well as the SD program services from WCET-DT/WCVN-DT. This is the first "listing site" like this I've seen that has! Cool! If only TV guide would put the correct listings for HD In, I wouldn't need to mess with any of this stuff, though.

When I get some time, this might be useful as long as I can add all the HD/DTV channels/Subchannels I can get via my antenna from Dayton and Cincinnati to the "antenna" line up.

I just blogged about this the other day.

http://www.gearbits.com/archives/000261.html

I've found HDTV Galaxy to be pretty accurate.

All..
For what it's worth, I've heard through the 'vine that the HD-One movies on WKRC-DT may be moving to Saturdays. With so much more HD programming on CBS on Friday nights this year than last, I can see that. If they follow the usual schedule, that would make November 8th the next HD One movie.

Doc

Thanks for the info, Doc. I hope Saturday night works for them, since I think "Hack" and "The District" are also usually in CBS HD on Saturday nights. Of course, if I wanted to watch CBS HD if it is happening when WKRC-DT has a HDone movie, I could just flip to WHIO-DT Dayton for the CBS HD ....

Anyhow, according to AVS programming sypnosis(which has allways been accurate before, and is also an excellent place to go for HD programming info) the Nov. HD-one Movie is "Black Rain", And December is "Scrooged"(Bill Murray) :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=164671

WXIX-DT is back up as of 5:10pm 10/15 (that's when I checked. They came up sometime within the last hour) ...although the sound went away during the 5:12 break.

I lost channel 19 (DT-29) over the weekend or early in the week I can't remember but I was wondering is the station NOT broadcasting as I pickup other Cincinnati stations with NO problems?

Thanks for you reply
John

I'm bumping this back on top so I can get an answer from my fellow Cincy HD users!

Is there a problem with channel 19 (DT)? I can no longer receive any signal whatsoever from this station. Are they off air or do I have a problem?

Thanks,
John

Jon..

Sorry, I didn't get the usual e-mail when someone tacks a message onto this thread. But I got your second one.

WXIX reports "problems" with the digital transmitter and they expect to have repairs made by sometime on Friday. It ran for a while, yesterday, and is up, again, right now (although stretched). It only came up a few minutes ago.

Doc

I've got them too at 3pm, signal seems to be strong and solid as "usual". With our luck, they'll probably be back down again though by the time Jon gets to check again. They were down last time I looked 30 minutes or so ago..

It's still stretched, but that's fine with me if they leave it like that so it will be "correct"(I hope at least!) for the Fox programming! Funny thing, I can actaually squeeze it to proper ratio on the Zenith when output at 480p, but can't stretch it if they don't stretch the Fox Programming right without recording, and playing back on my "main HD display" where I can stretch 480i.

It's up, then down, then up.. and I'm seeing a lot of what I take to be "exciter only" operation or just really low power, too.

Doc

I would think if Jon were reading the rest of the thread, he'd see all the talk about WXIX-DT being down for several days. Even the post prior to his question addressed it.

Yes --- For a while there they were solid, but with lower readings off receiver's meter than I've ever seen it, with less "DT snow" on 28 with my magic analog TV with wondering AFT. Then, the signal seemed as strong as usual, but the meter was still showing lower readings(perhaps just higher error rate), then they were gone completely. Presently, at 4:50pm, they seem to be putting in their normal, strong signal and "pegging the meter" readings.

Didn't they have problems around this time of year last year as well? Except then, if I remember right it would slowly go downhill over a matter of a week or two, and it looked like what could happen if they were using a weak tube, which if I remember right was replaced ....

Probably bought a rebuilt <G>

Thanks for everyone's support!

Paul210....I did read the thread and I did notice DrDon's comment that WXIX was 'UP' but I do NOT see a signal on my rigg so that is why I asked again.

Thanks to the rest of the AVS members for their great support as usual!

John

Jeff..

Channel 5 is letting visitors to their booth "try out" doing the weather in front of a green screen. The video? The radar. Explains the subchannel. That's how they're getting it to the booth. Here's hoping it goes away when the boats do.

Doc

Doc,

Thanks again for the info! I certianly wish stations had more bandwidth to work with, or that demanding HD source material really could fit in 14~15mb/s or so without perceivable effects ... Some say it will, even now with the "right encoders" and settings, But as compared to stations giving it everything possible, I certianly haven't seen it yet, and as they say, "seeing is believing"....

Anyhow, Along with the Billy Graham thing on a WKRC-DT Sub last summer, and the WCPO weather channel/etc it does Just goes to show you the "innovative" uses they can find for DTV ... On the one hand, I suppose it's a good thing they are experimenting around with this stuff/etc, I just hope that in the "long run" giving HD everything it really needs will prevail ...

Jeff..
What's sad is that more people will play with the green screen thing at Tall Stacks than have ever seen any NBC show in HD. Of course, that'll change, but for now, it's a sobering thought.

Doc

Small update..
Spoke to a tech at WLWT, this morning. Yes, the radar is up just for the cheap-and-easy link to Tall Stacks. There are no plans (that he knew of) to keep it after the event ends. He also seemed to think the bitrate was extremely low.

Anyone who hasn't seen the WCPO-DT building on Gilbert should have a look while it's nearing completion. Nice job matching the bricks of the new building to the old archway for the observatory. It's rumored that the new switcher will be a Grass Valley designed for 16X9 service. (I haven't confirmed this, but sort of suspected. Very little will be brought over from the current building. It's all new gear, folks).

Webhopper's intended clientele isn't turning out to be it's best clientele. According to a subscriber, local businesses are using it more than rural subscribers. Which is another way of saying it isn't going away from WKRC-DT anytime soon. On the other hand, it also means they'll do everything to make sure the ATSC transmitter remains on the air, full time.

That's all the scuttlebut I have for now.

Doc

Doc,

Wow! Looks like they've done some work since last time I saw it!
They have a section of website on the new building, including a Webcam trained on the new building:

http://www.wcpo.com/specials/2003/newbuilding/

------------------

On WKRC-DT, I wouldn't even be surprised if they have a generator for the DT transmitter in case of power outage/etc, as well as backup plan for just about anything.

I just picked up a new Pioneer 3510HD box from the Eastgate TWC today. Of course, there is no manual. I have a 4:3 aspect ratio and heard from a salesman at Alamo that this box allows you to adjust the signal for the aspect ration on your TV, unlike my current SA3100HD. So, does anyone know how to get into the setup menu?

--Tim

What is it with people not getting a manual with their Pioneer 3510 ? I picked mine up a couple of weeks ago at the Tri-County store and it came with a manual. I posted it up on the web, because apparently no one seems to have this manual. You can find the manual here. (http://www.pubnix.org/~becky/3510HD) The aspect ratio control can be accessed by pressing the settings button on the remote and then pressing the yellow button a to get to the advanced settigs. There you'll find the aspect ratio control and output format options.

-MarcW

Thanks MarcW for the help. I guess I should have been able to figure that out myself (push the Settings button, duh). Anyway, my TV accepts either 480p or 1018i through the component inputs. When switching the 3510HD to 480p mode, the aspect ratios work fine (letterboxed widescreen), albeit in SD resolution. However, when switching to 1080i output, it appears to completely ignore the aspect ratio settings, always outputting in widescreen "squeeshed" mode. So, once again I appear to be limited by the equipment and my choice of TV (4:3). I'm not sure if the aspect ratio setting works in 720p or not. Maybe someone can test that and report back.

--Tim

Does anyone know what's up with WCPOs digital site? It's been down for quite a while.

I pass the building all the time, I work about 3 minutes away from it. :)

Troy

Troy ... Interesting -- Looks like their main index page was overwritten with the SOAS page, somehow -- Granted, I enjoy watching Popo+the Guys on Sunday night ...but ...

Anyhow the site is still there, For instance this is OK:

http://www.wcpo-dt.com/programming.html

I just sent Greg Ruschmann a note about it, hopefully he can get it fixed soon.

---------------------------

Oh, noticed WXIX-DT Audio is missing so far today. I guess it would drive the techs a little crazy to monitor audio from the analog and DT ....

Jeff...
Let me jinx it all by noting that the audio appears to be back at 5:05pm. <G>.

Doc

Yep, it was probably fixed just before I posted that ... Was going to edit my post, but surmised that perhaps we worked a Anti-jinx this time :-)

Oh, Heard back from Ruschmann, he said he'd get right on the webpage problem -- And he evidently did! It's fixed now:

http://www.wcpo-dt.com/

CBS (12-1) is horrible for artifacts. Mondays Primetime was one of the worst nights of HD via local antenna. We need to push the issue at WKRC and if that doesn't work call CBS.

Since CBS doesn't own WKRC, your best course of action will be with WKRC. But, with Webhopper making $$$, I wouldn't look for them to do much until enough people (particularly sponsors) have HDTVs to make the profit pendulum swing the other way. When there's a PQ battle with the other stations, THEN you can look for something to happen. Not enough of us for that to matter, just yet. Sad, but true. Heck, it's not even important enough for them to run the local spots, yet. So we're a long way from having an impact.

Did you know there's only ONE HDTV at Channel 12? It's in the lobby. That's right... there's not even one in the control room.

Doc

I'm new to the whole HDTV thing. I have a Hughes HD receiver and an outside antenna for locals. I'm getting pretty good on all channels except for WKRC. The picture keeps breaking up about every minute. Is this my antenna or is the station that bad? I get WCPO just fine and from my location they are both a 18 degrees.

You don't say where in KY you are nor what kind of antenna you're using, but you may need to bump your antenna to the east a little. WKRC is UHF, while WCPO is VHF (they're about a block apart). You'd most likely still get WCPO-DT with a combo antenna considerably mispointed. WKRC-DT, however, is going to be more picky, especially the farther out you are or the lower in elevation. Could be that you need a rotator, relocation of the antenna, or just a little eastward bump. It all depends on exactly where you are, what's in the way, etc.

Doc

I live in the Cincinnati and I recently picked up a Pioneer 3510 HD cable box from TWC and bought a DVI cable. I have a Sony XBR television with an input specifically for the DVI high def viewing. I hooked it all up, switched to a hi def channel, and I get nothing but a black screen when my TV input is switched to the DVI one. I have no problems getting a picture when I source the component video or S-video from the box. I contacted TWC and the person I talked to was no help whatsoever so hopefully someone can give me hand. I guess my first question is whether or not TWC Cincinnati even supports the DVI output on their cable box. I have skimmed through a few forums and have gathered that perhaps TWC has not enabled this feature on their boxes... is this true? Also if they do support the DVI output does TWC have to do something with box to make it work or is there a setting that I have to change on cable box. I thought I read somewhere that the user could change the output on the cable box (ie 420p, 720p, 1080i) and if so how?


Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!

Originally posted by DrDon
You don't say where in KY you are nor what kind of antenna you're using, but you may need to bump your antenna to the east a little. WKRC is UHF, while WCPO is VHF (they're about a block apart). You'd most likely still get WCPO-DT with a combo antenna considerably mispointed. WKRC-DT, however, is going to be more picky, especially the farther out you are or the lower in elevation. Could be that you need a rotator, relocation of the antenna, or just a little eastward bump. It all depends on exactly where you are, what's in the way, etc.

Doc

Well I'm in Independence. I have a Channel Master 3016. I guess what's weird is that I've had this up for about 2 weeks and at first I didn't have this problem. I was getting everything just fine except WB. Still can't get that one.

Well, unless you're down in a valley, due north ought to work for you. I'm assuming you have < 50' of RG6 cable from the antenna to the set and/or a preamplifier. Probably would need that at your distance. Or a little more elevation.

Doc

The really wierd thing is when I check the signal strength It flucuates between 90 and 50 back and forth. Does that seem like a aiming problem or do I need some kind of amplifier?

str1der,

I'd guess maybe the leaves falling off trees(or wind blowing trees around) has changed the signal conditions a little at your location, and you might need to adjust your antenna a little to compensate. I did notice that late night Monday(after Letterman) WKRC-DT went off air for a few minutes, then was in blank screen mode for a couple of minutes, but all has been normal here since then. Anyhow, some more thoughts follow, below :

Originally posted by str1der
Well I'm in Independence. I have a Channel Master 3016. I guess what's weird is that I've had this up for about 2 weeks and at first I didn't have this problem. I was getting everything just fine except WB. Still can't get that one.

Some thoughts to add to Doc's excellent posts :

WB Cincy (WSTR-DT) Is operating at fairly low power, presently. Independance is about 18-19 Miles distant from their tower - The farthest Cincy tower for you. Given their directional antenna pattern as shown on FCC site, they would only be sending a little more than 6KW ERP or so in your direction. This would probably make it the most difficult Cincy station to receive from your location, with WCET-DT being the next probable most difficult station to receive, as their directional antenna is sending about 17KW ERP in your direction, but also from a tower about 5 miles closer to you than is the case with WSTR-DT. I'd still think however that WSTR-DT reception would still be possible for you given a decent outdoor antenna setup(maybe w/preamp) and no "significant enough" terrain/etc. issues. Of course, they don't have WB HD yet and don't have the best looking video, so it might not be worth the effort if you're getting good reception from the analog on 64(which I'd think should be the case) at least currently.

WKRC-DT is running 800KW ERP with a non-directional antenna up nice and high and they are the highest power station in our area. All things being equal, it should be, and generally is the easiest Cincy station to receive from within their 55~65 Mile coverage area.

I really wouldn't think you should need a rotor for Cincy area stations, as all should be within about 10 degree or so bearing from your location, with WCVN in N KY making for a 20 degree total difference. Seems to me like the CM3016 is a good choice of antenna for reception of the Cincy stations from your location, and along the lines of what Doc mentioned, what might be most helpful for you is to try to find a "sweet spot" for your antenna, moving antenna up or down, or right or left/etc. a little bit might do wonders.

You said you weren't experiencing the problem with WKRC-DT until recently ... I suppose it's possible that with the leaves coming off trees(and wind blowing trees around/etc) the signal conditions at your location may have changed a bit in various and unpredicatable ways. For example, with some of the leaves off trees, you might be gettting more signal(maybe too much) from WKRC-DT than was the case previously, and/or, more signal via Multipath which was somewhat blocked by the leaves. For this reason, it might take some adjustment in antenna heading(or antenna location) throughout the seasons to find the best spot. Still, if you don't have much of a terrain issue, changes such as leaves falling off trees usually aren't going to cause much of an issue, especially given a properly orientated outdoor antenna.

I'd think the best thing to try would be to try to improve reception on the antenna "sweet spot for reception" side of things, but Some other factors you might want to consider, Which may also be related to a potential change in signal conditions at your location due to leaves falling off trees :

#1) Judging by many reports I've seen, the E86 seems to have some RF performance problems-- for example, It might be the case that the strong signal from WKRC-DT may be overloading your tuner a bit, so it might be helpful for you to try a bit of extra attenuation -- You could add a "extra" 2 way splitter to get about 2.5-3.5db of attenuation, or even better try a variable atteunuator. -- If this helps, hard to say, but it's probably not a good idea to use a preamp, as you're probably getting more than enough signal(at least from WKRC-DT) as it is.

#2) Although I haven't heard of any problems from this, I believe that it is the case that intermod products(originating from the transmission side of things) from WCPO/WCPO-DT adjacent channel, and Colocated facilities could be a bit of a interference issue to channels 31~33 or so, although I've not seen any problem with it here.

It is a bit puzzling that we seem to have gotten a few other reports concerning difficulty of reception of WKRC-DT from certian areas of N KY, hard to say, but I have to wonder if some sort of "interference related issue", such as #2 above has anything to do with it. Especially given the proximity, and azimuth bearing of WCPO/WKRC tower from those receiving locations.

Str1der..
Could be a number of things. Loose connections, the trees blowing to and fro (if you're not up over them) and that's just a start. It seems the signal meters in these things measure error correction, not actual signal. Good thing, I guess, otherwise explaining a full-strength signal and no picture could be maddening for STB salespeople <g>.

Let's just assume that's a weak actual signal condition and work from there. How long is your cable run? What kind of cable are you using? How high up are you? Any hills or buildings obstructing your view?

The best way to test the need for a pre-amp is to haul the STB and a small TV up to where you're only a few feet from the antenna. If all of the stations come in nice there, then a pre-amp is in order. Especially if you're using less than new RG-6 and/or splitting or diplexing the signal. At your distance, I'd almost bet on the need for the pre-amp. If you experience the same symptoms at the antenna you do in the house, then it's pointing, reflections, etc.

Another simple diagnostic is to hook your antenna to a standard TV inside the house and check the picture on WCET, WSTR and WBQC. Crystal clear? I'd bet WCET looks fine, but WSTR and WBQC don't.

That's enough for now. Let's start there and see where we go.

Doc

Sorry for any duplications as Jeff and I hit the post at about the same time!! And thanks, as usual, Jeff!!

Doc,

Thanks .... I really didn't address the preamp thing too well though, as I'd also think it's probably likely "medium gain"/lo noise mast mount preamp would probably help him out, overall -- Wouldn't really think he should have preamp overload problems either.

Thanks for the excellent replies. I will definitley try reaiming first. I don't have any trees in the direction of the antenna but I am in a little dip. Is there a particular preamp that you would recommend?

The CM 7777 (Channel Master) seems to be a forum favorite. Do run the at-the-antenna test before you sink the money, however. If you're not getting signals at the antenna, there's little a pre-amp can do.

Doc

Could you explain a little about your comment regarding the signal strength meter? I guess what I don't understand is it jumping up and down on this station but it's always locked and doesn't go below 50. Almost all others are at 100 rock solid.

Yes, and that dip might be a bit of a problem for you, and it might mean that moving your antenna a bit up, or right or left(even 6") could make a big difference.

As Doc mentioned, the CM7777 comes highly recommended on this forum, but it might be a little too "high gain" for you. Also Personally, If I'm hooking up a 300ohm antenna, I like to use a preamp with 300 ohm input and a short piece of good, 300ohm twinlead to antenna, as the circutry in the preamp used to match 300ohm balanced feed to 75 ohm unbalanced Coax I'd think is as good or better insertion loss wise than you'd get from any balun(matching transformer), which you need if you're using no preamp, or a preamp with 75 ohm input. I use a Blonder tongue Suburban II here(The new model is Suburban III), it works very well.

Several that may be good in your situation might be Winegaurd AP-8703(8700 is 75 ohm input version), or Blonder Tongue Suburban III. I can't find the #, but I think CM makes a decent "medium gain" preamp that you might be able to get at home depot. There are also some preamps which amplify UHF, and just pass through VHF, such as the CM7775, and winegaurd AP-4700 which might not be a bad Idea for you if your VHF reception is just fine.

more info on various preamps here:

http://www.starkelectronic.com/allamps.htm

str1der,

Hope Doc doesn't mind If I butt in here ... In a explanation of ATSC receiver design in the following document:

http://www.atscforum.org/doc/FieldTestReport.pdf

There is a mention of how "signal quality meters" can be implemented in receivers. This is an excerpt of what it says in 1st paragraph of page 3, and, from what I've seen, I highly suspect this is exactly how the "signal meters" on most models of DTV receivers are implemented - I've put the part we are interested here in all caps :

"The MPEG data sync is reinserted at the receiver output for subsequent processing in the receiver's MPEG transport decoder. The one-segment long binary frame sync not only provides pseudo-random number sequences(PN) for data frame synchronization, but can also be used as a training signal for the receiver's equalizer AND AS A MEANS TO MEASURE RECEIVED SIGNAL QUALITY."

In other words, even though it might say so right on the screen or in manual, it's not really a "signal strenth" meter. It doesn't measure signal strength. Except for rare exception such as the SNR and AGC readings on a Hauppage WINTV-D tuner card, which does measure signal over noise, right from the actual RF signal itself, it is a "Signal Quality" meter, and does not even look at the actual RF signal itself, instead, it looks at at the datastream, and at things such as bit rate errors that are occuring in the datastream, and basically, how "clean" the datastream looks to the decoder.

For this reason, a fairly weak signal, just a bit over the threshold of signal over noise needed for good DTV reception(Which is theoretically 15.3db of signal over noise) can produce a "100" reading, just as a much stronger signal might -- Although, that weaker signal is still actually more susceptable to dropouts(and fluctuating meter readings) from interference and Multipath issues than would be the case if an actual, strong signal was involved.

This is not to say, that you don't have a "strong signal" from WKRC-DT, you might. Unless your dealing with a quite weak signal that actually is just a bit under or over the threshold of signal over noise needed for good DTV reception, that meter is probably going to tell you pretty much nothing about signal strength. But it can tell you about "signal quality", and what is "good enough". It's also the case that an actual strong signal, with perfect reception still might not give you a "100 reading".

For the most part, getting good DTV reception is all about getting enough Signal over noise,(and that noise could be anything, normal "noise", noise from various interference issues/receiver desense/selectivity issues/etc), and in some occasions is about correcting for multipath. Normally, the more signal available, the easier it is for the equalizer in your receiver to correct for multipath problems, but there can be exceptions.

Of course too, there are situations when there is TOO much signal, more than the receiver can handle, which can also cause the meter to fluctuate and dropouts to occur. It might not even be the signal you are trying to receive that could cause the front end of your tuner to overload, it might even be a strong, nearby signal on a different frequency alltoghether -- This can cause your tuner to desensitize.

Receiver selectivity issues can also be an issue, for example, when a strong signal is on a channel right next to a weak signal you're trying to receive(which shouldn't be a problem for WKRC-DT), your receiver may not be selective enough to see the weak signal. I had also heard somewhere that a station 7 channels away can cause diffiuclties with this, although I've never seen it.

Generally speaking, it is probably most common that if the desired signal is fairly weak, then Multipath issues or almost any sort of interference issue or a little bit of "increased noise" can cause the meter to fluctuate, and dropouts to occur as you seem to be experiencing. Of course, however, given your results from the other stations, I wouldn't at all be surprised if a combination of issues which we've been discussing may be involved.

Clear as mud<g>? I hope it makes some sense -- I do know that I wish our receiver's had better RF signal diagnostic tools to show us really what is going on, something that is going to even be more of a necessity when the analogs shut off.

Of course I don't mind. Always pick up so much more info (and handy links) when you do <G>.

Doc

Originally posted by str1der
The really wierd thing is when I check the signal strength It flucuates between 90 and 50 back and forth. Does that seem like a aiming problem or do I need some kind of amplifier?
This happens on my Dish Model 6000. When switching to WKRC-DT the signal strength goes back and forth between 33 and 85 for a few seconds, then it retunes to a solid 80-85 for as long as I keep it tuned.

It's almost as if the signal is "out-of-sync", the receiver eventually realizes it and resets itself. The receiver always locks on so I never bothered re-aiming since it would affect the reception of other stations.

jim

Ok, I'm sitting here watching World Series in Fox Widescreen -- and at 12:12am, during ad break before the top of 12th, the signal disappears from WXIX-DT! Checked the analog, and it was down too!

Analog came back up by 12:16am, and Surprise! At 12:18am, I got to see the WXIX-DT transmitter tube warm back up, as the signal quality meter on the receiver rose from below a lock quickly(about 5 seconds) to it's normal "pegging the meter" reading ... back to Fox widescreen for the final bit of the game ... So, it appears someone is awake down there tonight :-)

Well I think it's just a matter of the aiming. I adjusted it a little and I now get WKRC fine. Only problem is now Fox is cutting in and out now. I guess I have a little more fine tuning to do . Thanks again guys. I do have another question though. What are the secondary channels for the OTA stations for?

That's the million dollar question! Most of us here think they're useless, especially since they take away bandwidth and affect pq of the main channel.

As far as Cincinnati goes, WCPO-DT's "weather network" is distributed to cable systems via 9-2. I don't know the specifics of the deal, but on Insight channel 71, we get commercials while 9-2 is showing promos. So, there's a financial arrangement, there.

WLWT-DT's 5-2, as mentioned earlier in the thread, was being used just to pump the radar to Tall Stacks. As is often the case, they won't think to turn it off until someone mentions it. Or they might like the idea of being able to bring it up anywhere, anytime in the field. But, as Paul said, it's all pretty much a waste of bandwidth. But, to the stations, it's still in the "toy" stage.

Doc

Hey, What do you know, WKEF-DT is ahead of WLWT-DT on the "HD Curve" For Breeder's cup ..... We'll see how long it takes for WLWT-DT to switch to HD feed ...

Update: WLWT-DT had HD by 1:20pm -- Can't really see any difference between WKEF/WLWT, but I suspect Motion artifacts(which aren't too bad) would be gone if either would drop their SD sub+allocate full bandwidth to HD ....

Originally posted by str1der
Well I think it's just a matter of the aiming. I adjusted it a little and I now get WKRC fine. Only problem is now Fox is cutting in and out now. I guess I have a little more fine tuning to do . Thanks again guys. I do have another question though. What are the secondary channels for the OTA stations for?

See KET's web site for a description of sub channels..

William

Originally posted by DAS1414
I live in the Cincinnati and I recently picked up a Pioneer 3510 HD cable box from TWC and bought a DVI cable. I have a Sony XBR television with an input specifically for the DVI high def viewing. I hooked it all up, switched to a hi def channel, and I get nothing but a black screen when my TV input is switched to the DVI one. I have no problems getting a picture when I source the component video or S-video from the box. I contacted TWC and the person I talked to was no help whatsoever so hopefully someone can give me hand. I guess my first question is whether or not TWC Cincinnati even supports the DVI output on their cable box. I have skimmed through a few forums and have gathered that perhaps TWC has not enabled this feature on their boxes... is this true? Also if they do support the DVI output does TWC have to do something with box to make it work or is there a setting that I have to change on cable box. I thought I read somewhere that the user could change the output on the cable box (ie 420p, 720p, 1080i) and if so how?


Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!

Take a look at the following thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...threadid=279674

Just wanted to let everyone know.
But last night American Dreams (I know, I know, the wife watch's it) was not in HD. Well, I told her if she wanted to see it in HD to call. She did, and BINGO, 5 minutes later it was in HD. Looks like actually calling to let them know may be worth it in the future. This is the first we have ever called about it, so I may now do it in the future! Of course, only if their isn't a weather bug up. :)

Dave

Dave.
My wife actually called WXIX when the pregame show was in weirdscreen without any prompting from me. And, within two minutes, it was fixed. All she had to say was, "You need to fix the picture." The person who answered the phone said, "You must be watching in HD. I'll go tell them." I do think they respond better to women.

Doc

Noticed "Frampton in Detroit" is on CET-HD's HD schedule tonight at 9pm, for those who might be interested and may have missed the listing. Also, per their Nov. HD schedule, looks like they are perhaps expanding their HD schedule just a tad:

http://www.cetconnect.org/television/print_month.asp?channel=2&date=nextmonth

Don't know if it was a "mistake" or what, but I also noticed a couple of nights last week when WCET-DT had HD, I thought the HD looked better than "usual", and, the SD subs that are left up during HD looked to be at a lower bitrate than normal. 48-2 especially was a screenful o' macroblocks when things got a little "active", it's better it happen on the SD subs than the HD subs IMO, especially when it's just a SD simulcast of the same HD programming on 48-1 ...

Thought I was posting this in the "Cincinnati" thread, so will do so now. Thanks Jeff (Nitewatchman) for the response. Have posted your response at the end of my thread -


Hello folks - new owner of a HLN5065 tv, and as I recall standing in the chekcout line thinking I must be some kind of idiot to drop $4k on a TV, everytime I turn that thing on, I am amazed at the picture I see. Thank God for 2 years, same as cash.

Anyway, I'm trying to understand why a football game I watch in HD on CBS on the WKRC feed has, what I think is called "compression artifacts", galore..and the MNF game I watch on ABC is an absolutely stunning picture.

Is it the fact that the CBS game is transmitted in 1080i format, and the MNF game is in 720p, and there is just that much difference in PQ between these 2 formats? Or does it have something to do with not enough bandwidth being allocated by WKRC to the CBS Sunday football game, and the ABC station is providing ample b/w for a quality HD picture on the MNF game. Still a newbie on this HD stuff and trying to determine why the CBS pq is really poor vs. the MNF pq - thanks all -

Nitewatchman resonse:

WKRC-DT(1080i CBS HD) is allocating 15mb/s to CBS HD instead of the full amount possible, according to one of their engineers. I believe they use the rest of their digital stations' bandwidth for Datacasting, specifically the "Webhopper" internet acceleration service. This is likely why compression artifacts are a problem for them during demanding HD source material such as NFL football, those of us who have seen the Columbus CBS HD station, which gives all their available bandwidth to HD have noticed that Compression artifacts aren't a problem from the Columbus station.

Oh, BTW, you should be seeing the same quality via TWC as we OTA viewers see.

Concerning WCPO-DT, they multicast a SD weather subchannel, but since they are doing 720p HD, their HD can get by with a little less bandwidth.

You can find more info on this and other local Cincinnati issues in the Cincinnati Thread, which is here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...threadid=306883

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DrDon
[B]While we're near the top of the thread, here's a handy reference of phone numbers you can call when someone misses an HD switch. Be nice and ask them to pass the message to the control room. Some will connect you, but most all of them will pass the message.

WXIX-DT 19/29 Assignment Desk 513-421-0119
WCPO-DT 9/10 Newsroom 513-852-4071*
WKRC-DT 12/31 Newsroom 513-421-3820

Dr Don - thanks for the info. Was just trying to use the WKRC phone# for the first time to see if they missed the HD switch for the 11/1/03 CBS Fla-Ga football game, and the 421-3820 is connecting to a modem at their site. Not sure if they've changed #'s recently. Will give the phone book a try - Thxc

Well, I called the local CBS affiliate in Cincinnati and they stated that the Fla-GA football game will not switch to HD until 4:30pm EST. Any of the pro's on this forum know why this would happen like this? I think I"ll go mow the grass and come back for the 2nd half.

BTW, the WKRC Newsroom phone# is 513-763-5422.

Didn't ask why this game wouldn't go HD until 4:30 on my first call, so called them back and they said it's a local problem in the control room and they're projecting it to be fixed by 4:30pm. The person I spoke to was nice and apologized for the tech difficulty -

The response I got was that "it's on our log that the 4:30 game is the game that's in HD." I mentioned that there IS no different 4:30 game and was told, "Well, we go by what's on the log and the log says to switch at 4:30."

In 4 minutes, we'll know

Doc

That must have been it, as the first time I called they said rather assuredly, that the game wouldn't switch till 4:30. After I hung up I decided to call back to ask why an already active game would switch halfway through the game, and they said someone else had just called (musta been the Dr. calling) and she then said they were having tech difficulties. I don't recall what time the switch did occur, but it moved to HD at some point - Thanks Doc -

It was right about 4:30, coming out of a commercial break. About ten minutes later, they flipped back to SD for a couple of minutes, but were back in HD after the commercial break that followed that. Obviously, those union people don't vary from the script, even if the script is an hour off.

On another matter, what's up with WCET's time coding? All of my VCRs are slaved to WCET's clock and they're an hour off, this morning. This is the second or third time, recently, where I've noticed all of my VCRs with some time other than the present. The only one with the correct time on it is the one I inadvertantly left on all night.

Doc

Doc,

That's odd on WCET timeset -- Thanks for the headsup ... I don't look at the clock on the VCR's very often though so I hope it doesn't mess up when I've got something set to record!I use them too, and it was OK here, just did a "forced" auto time set at 10:40am, and it worked OK.

Hello -

I just moved this weekend (I'm still sore) and I previously had Directv and an OTA antenna, so I got pretty much all the HDTV programming I wanted. I am in an apartment temporarily and cannot have a Drirectv installed and don't want to fool with an OTA antenna because we'll only be there for a few months. I am considering Insight cable for HDTV programming. Does anyone know what channels Insight offers in HDTV; their rep. said that all the locals are available, but that's not what their website says. Anyone have the real scoop?

Also, does anyone know if Insight is offering or will offer soon a PVR. I really miss my Tivo?

Thanks,

Jeff

Jeff,

I believe the info you're looking for is in Who1zep's Insight info post on pg 3 of this thread, Here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2788610#post2788610

Bengals Game in 4:3

Did anyone watch the Bengals game in HD yesterday? I am using an antenna to get HD via my htpc (MyHD card), and the game was broadcast in 1080i, but only in 4:3, even though my HD tuner said that the signal was "1080x720, 16:9. Why is that?
BTW, other ota channels were shown in 16:9, just not the bengals game:(.

thanks for your help

The Colts game was the only CBS game in HD, yesterday. Your hdpc card will show 1080i because, when not showing a true HD program on their main channels, the local stations upconvert 480i material to whatever format their transmitter spits out. For WKRC, WLWT and WXIX, that's 1080i. WCPO is 720p. WSTR's transmitter is set for 480i, so there is no upconverting.

Basically, if you see 4:3, it's not HD, but upconverted SD.

The HDTV Programming page is pretty good about keeping you up to date on what programs and live events are in HD. See the sticky topics at the top of that forum.

Doc

Hi, I am a new member of the AVS Forum, and receive all of the Cincinnati and most of Dayton Digital Stations using a very large antenna in my home here in West Chester. I have been reading for a while that WXIX is broadcasting in 1080i, however, my television is showing it as a SD16:9 signal. Also is WCPO broadcasting in 1080i or 720p, as I know that they were 1080i. Any updates would help, as I do notice a difference in WDTN and WCPO, WDTN seems to be softer. Also if anyone knows someone who is ISF, please tell me, I tweaked a lot, but I am worried about adjusting focus on my CRTs.

Dogg..
Welcome to AVS. Good to have you here.

If you'll read the post prior to yours, you'll see that most of the Cincinnati DT stations TRANSMIT in 1080i. WHIO and WKEF in Dayton, do too. WCPO and WDTN transmit in 720p. WCPO used to upconvert to 1080i, but they quit doing that, opting to show ABC-HD programming natively. Plus, it's a little easier to have a subchannel with 720p as 1080i. You won't see quite as many artifacts during HD programming.

WXIX transmits a 1080i signal, but Fox doesn't offer any 1080i material. All of the "Fox Widescreen" programs are sent from the network in 480p, but upconverted by WXIX to 1080i. Next year, Fox will begin originating some HD programming, but in 720p. No word from WXIX on how they plan to handle it.

Hope that helps

Doc

Thanks Doc, I knew that WXIX broadcast in 1080i, but my mits tells me SD16:9, oh well, coming from Eastern Iowa, NBC and ABC OTA, I love all the new channels. CBS I find the most rewarding, even with some macro blocking. Also, where are some higher end home theater stores, not Best Buy or Circuit City, but handle some higher end sets? Any help would be great.

Can't help you much in West Chester. Here in N KY, HH Gregg, BB, CC and Sears is about all we have. That I know of.

Doc

There are two excellent sources in Montgomery--Audible Elegance is a Pioneer Elite dealer and Alamo Electronics. Audible Elegance is in downtown Montgomery in the historic district and Alamo is just north of there across from Montgomery Elementary school. Also, Unique Home Systems is the Fujitsu dealer (they are in Deer Park) and Sound Waves is located on Kemper Road just west of Chester.

Jeff -

Thanks for the information. It was just what I needed to know.

Jeff

Audible Elegance has a web site and a new location in Florence next to the Wildwood Inn.

Originally posted by ClarkeR
... next to the Wildwood Inn. Known for an "audible elegance" all its own <g>.

Doc

Couple of things ..

#1). Hey, I saw Doc and Amanda on TV last night(B-105 spot on WKRC) -- Looked good!

#2) I noticed that new WPTO-DT 28 (ThinkDTV 14 - CP MOD for WXIX Tower) program listings+associated TWC Dayton Channel designations are currently showing up on ThinkTV's website(near bottom) :

http://www.thinktv.org/program/program.php

Presently, I'm just seeing listings for SD -- Simulcast of analog 14 as well a SD "learning channel" ...

They aren't on the air yet, and I Haven't heard anything new on WPTO-DT recently - Latest info that I had seen anywhere is from early September, when they basically told FCC in the exhibit attached to their latest CP extension app(If granted and used, it would be an extension until 5/04) that at that time, they were planning on trying to be on air by January -- This most current CP extension app is still shown on FCC site as "accepted for filing"(not shown as granted yet) and their current CP extension app expires on 11/9/03 ...

Just speculation of course, but since they have listings for it(seperate from the ThinkDTV14 subchannel listing for WPTD-DT) up on their site now, maybe we'll see them on air before too long. Perhaps Charles at ThinkTV can jump in and give us a quick update ...

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
#1). Hey, I saw Doc and Amanda on TV last night(B-105 spot on WKRC) -- Looked good! It's all special effects. I'd like to thank George Lucas' "Industrial Light and Magic" for making me look that good. Amanda looks like that all of the time.

But thanks!

Doc

Doc, You're a natural award acceptor(if that's a word!) :-)

Noticed that This month's HDone movie "Black Rain" is scheduled for SD showing on WKRC at 2am late night Saturday ... Wonder if we'll see it on WKRC-DT on sat night?

A fellow at WWHO-DT, Columbus/Chillocothe(also runs the HDone movies) commented that when he was recording it(They are showing it Sunday Afternoon), he thought it looked to be a very well done transfer to HD - His comments are here:

http://www.hdcolumbus.org/forums/forum/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=15&TopicID=367&PagePosition=1

Best Buy, I found out tonight, has a Hughes E-86 open box for $299, but you may be able to talk them down. It didn't have a remote.
Also, anyone know of someone who is ISF certified? If not, do you recommend DVE for tweaking a set.

Hi Guys.

Back in beautiful downtown Cincinnati for a few months. Just had a new sat. dish installed to receive all the Direct TV HD stations. Still have trouble downtown receiving the PBS stations. Sometimes receive WCET and KET.

Have you read about the new ZOOM service. This will give Direct TV and Dish a run for their money. Some talk about getting the local stations HD by sat. dish. A couple of the other movie channels are going to have HD, such as CineMax.

The person looking for high end gear...look up M. Alan & Associates. You have to have an appointment, but they have a $150,000 set-up in one of their displays. The latest 7.1 audio decoder, 150 " screen, front projector, and about 10 high end speakers and subs. Awesome!

Best wishes

Laird L.

Laird..
Welcome back. Although you just missed the really good weather. You got here just in time for the COLD.

I've seen the local HD via sat threads and am not putting a whole lot of stock into them. I can see DirecTV using the Ka sats they're getting to do that for some of the larger metro areas, but the need for user investment in new gear seems to me to outweigh the benefits.

The Voom model (Local channels via antenna only) makes the most sense to me. It's just a little too far ahead of its time. But it could be the best way for conus HD "cable" channels and a darn fine alternative for those who can't hit the lower southwest birds.

I still say that, by the time any company can work out the technology to supply HD LIL into a significant number of markets, it'll no longer be necessary as the penetration of city-grade ATSC signals will make the feature attractive only to those in fringe reception areas. And that won't be enough to make the money necessary to offset the expense.

But, of course, I could be wrong. I never thought LIL over satellite would be a big deal, anyway. Who knew people living a mile from the transmitters would pay $5 a month just so they don't have to futz with rabbit ears? <sigh>

Anyway, welcome back.

Doc

Thanks for visiting our Website, and keeping tabs on us!

WPTO-DT is still slated to begin broadcasting with a January / February time frame. We are connected to TimeWarner's Dayton head-end via Fiber, and they have approached us looking for Digital Content. We are currently providing them the two services (14DT and 14Learn) from the lineup for that Digital channel. The other two services that will be offered are still being drawn up and finalized. We will not be sending out HD on WPTO until after the Transmitter signs on the air.

I do want to bring a bit of attention to WPTD's "16Again" service. We are delaying our and playing back our PrimeTime schedule in a "checkerboard" basis over 7 days... If you miss Nova on Tuesdays, you now have 10 other chances to see it!

Also, starting in December, PBS's HD Service will eliminate the "Loop" and begin offering HD Programs 24/7 (many of them being up-converted Widescreen programs). WPTD will be expanding its carriage of HD beginning in January. Exact times are not quite nailed down yet.

Welcome back Laird :-)

Charles,

Thanks much for the update. Also, Feel free to join us at anytime on the Dayton Thread ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2897318#post2897318 ) as well.

Originally posted by Charles Cole
Starting in December, PBS's HD Service will eliminate the "Loop" and begin offering HD Programs 24/7 (many of them being up-converted Widescreen programs). WPTD will be expanding its carriage of HD beginning in January.


Excellent news! It's good to hear PBS+WPTD will be offering more HD programming soon. Also, although I notice that a couple of them have popped up from time to time, there are a number of excellent programs that have aired in PBS HD/Widescreen on earlier occasions which many current and future HD viewers haven't had a chance to see, so hopefully those will get aired again at some point as well.

Originally posted by Charles Cole
I do want to bring a bit of attention to WPTD's "16Again" service.

Yes, I've enjoyed programming on "16again" which I missed on Think16. There was a really cool show on the Floridian Aquifer which I caught on 16again a while back -- It was shot in HD according to the credits, and hopefully I'll catch it in HD sometime. I'm not positive, but think it might have aired in HD on ThinkHD a couple of times, but I missed it.

Unfortunetly though, I've noticed that when WPTD-DT began running both 16again+Think16 program services when programming is also being aired on Think16HD, The HD(or upconverted widescreen) quality often suffers because of increased compression artifacts(i.e. macroblocking). It looks to be much more of a problem now to my eyes than was the case when only ThinkTV16 programming was multicast along with HD programming service.

Hate to be negative on this issue and it is not my intention to "shoot the messenger", as nevertheless, I am glad that there is at least one station in the area that provides HD/PBS widescreen every night, presenty. And certianly, it unfortunetly is pretty much the norm in our area that stations are sacrificing HD quality to some degree in order to also use their bandwidth for other purposes, which is understandable given the other beneifts to DTV besides HD(multicasting/datacasting/etc). I wish there was a way we could all have our cake and eat it too. But, also unfortunetly, it is the consumer who purchased the equipment, and is watching these stations FOR HD who suffers.

Just a couple of cents -- In any event, thanks for being there, and for participating here, we really appreciate it :)

It's kinda late now, but the HD-One movie is on tonight on WKRC-DT.

Paul,

I just noticed the HD movie on WKRC-DT, I just started recieving Ciny Locals, how often & when do they show the HD-one movies?

The HD-One movies have been showing (minus the hiatus) on the second Friday of the month, unless the first of the month falls on a Saturday. We had it on good authority that the HD One movies were moving to Saturday due to the number of JAG fans complaining. However, it didn't happen, this week. Maybe next month. At least they're there, no matter which day they're on.

DO WRITE WKRC and tell them you saw it. Remember, there's not a single HDTV in the WKRC studios (aside from the reception desk, which is not the route most of the employees use to get into or out of the building). Not even the master control room has an HDTV, nor is there a dedicated monitor on the CBS-HD feed. So, they have no idea what's on WKRC-DT, what it looks like or that very many peope are watching. Their own employees were asking ME what's on in HD.

Doc

Yes! defintely send them a note of thanks(even if the movie's a dud), so they know it's not just me and Doc out here watching<g> .... They missed a few months of HDOne HD showings over the summer, but had them every month between Feb. 2002 and April 2003. Of the ones I've seen, I especially enjoyed "The Odd Couple"(Nice transfer for a movie from the 60's) and "Witness", it was the first time I had seen either in their OAR. The one from April or so with Halle Barry was a decent flick as well.

Funny thing, I was expecting it tomorrow night, and was watching CBS HD at 8(The new show "Joan of Arcadia", sort of an interesting show), and Boston Public on 'XIX at 9 ... If I would have known I would have checked it and set the recorder ...

According to AVS programming sypnosis, next month's HD-one movie is "Scrooged" with Bill Murray. It's been some time ago, but WKRC programming folks had said they'll have them through the 2004-2005 season, and at one time there was a list up there of many of the titles in the package in programming sypnosis Including some good ones still to come such as the Star Trek Movies, Indiana Jones movies/etc.(Raiders of Lost ark was EXCELLENT in HD when ABC had it a couple years back).

Maybe TWC Cincy needs to carry BOTH WKRC-DT and WHIO-DT(as I'd think they will after analog shut off), then maybe nobody will complain if CBS HD is missing during HDone movies ;-)... Or, WKRC-DT could show the HD airing of HD one Movie on weekend afternoons ... If the FCC simulcast rule "sticks though"(-FCC is currently reviewing this in their ongoing 2nd DTV review of the rules for DTV transksistion - it's at 50% of analog programming currently, 75% on 4/1/04), by the time we get to 4/1/2005, they're supposed to simulcast 100% of analog programming on the digital station, so if they're still doing it by then I won't tell ;-)

Originally posted by Nitewatchman

Thanks much for the update. Also, Feel free to join us at anytime on the Dayton Thread ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2897318#post2897318 ) as well.


Unfortunetly though, I've noticed that when WPTD-DT began running both 16again+Think16 program services when programming is also being aired on Think16HD, The HD(or upconverted widescreen) quality often suffers because of increased compression artifacts(i.e. macroblocking). It looks to be much more of a problem now to my eyes than was the case when only ThinkTV16 programming was multicast along with HD programming service.

[/B]


I am subscribed to the Dayton Thread, this one is just busier!

As an engineer at heart, I agree with you on the compression issues. I'd like nothing better than to offer full bandwidth HD to you guys.

Unfortunately, we need to server our viewers, and there are FAR more viewers with Analog sets, that have upgraded to Digital Cable (but without the HD capability) than there are with HD boxes, or viewing HD off air. Those viewers are now able to receive both our DT, and ThinkAgain services. In testing that we did here in the station, we found that once we had degenerated our HD signal by adding one multi-cast channel, adding a second channel did not make things look much worse.

Charles,

I'm sure we all have different opinions here but to my eyes, it looks quite a bit worse now that you've added another sub, especially if there is any movement in the scene. When it's really evident, I just change the channel. I refuse to watch degraded pq. I bought into all of this HD stuff for increased picture quality. I suppose I understand your reasoning, but what about when more people DO buy HD capable sets? I think they're going to see the same degradation that we're seeing.

Paul

Originally posted by Paul210
what about when more people DO buy HD capable sets? For us "early adopters," it's going to take a painfully long time, but eventually - when enough people do have the sets - the picture quality battle will land in our favor. Maybe not with PBS stations (their goals are different), but OTA, cable and DSS will be hard-pressed to deliver the best picture.

We saw viewers lured away from OTA because cable offered "a better picture." They were selling ghost and interference-free signals long before they had a wealth of channels to offer. And people bought it. Then DSS came along and the digitally-delivered picture looked superior to that of cable. People bought that. The whole digital-cable movement was launched to plug the whole in the subscriber dike.

HDTV is the next bragging-rights battleground. The DSS companies know it and the cable companies are quickly catching on. Broadcasters - stubborn as they can be - will get the picture (pun intended), eventually, too. When you think of how much money they blow on Doppler radar systems just to have "the best," you know, once the PQ battle starts, they'll do the same with HDTV.

But, you're right: it won't happen until HDTV sets are as ubiquitous as stereo televisions are, now. Actually, it won't happen until the TV station GM is on the golf course with a potential $100K/mo client/HDTV owner who says, "My commercials don't look as good on your station as they do on the other station. Why is that?" The subchannels will disappear the very next day.

Doc

I had recurring pixalation with Monday night Football last night while my OTA signal meter gave a constant 100%. Did anyone else have this problem? Was this a problem with ABC? local? or me?

ItzMe,

Problems with MNF reported all over the country. Check out this link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=324168) at the HDTV Programming Forum.

Originally posted by Charles Cole
As an engineer at heart, I agree with you on the compression issues. I'd like nothing better than to offer full bandwidth HD to you guys.


That's very good to hear. Appreciate your willingness to address this issue, which is VERY frustrating for us.

Have to say I agree completely with Paul+Doc's posts on this issue. Couple of add'l thoughts.

#1.) I really think stations should be following ATSC recommendations on this issue, and should be sending the 16x9 ATSC format that "matches" what they are doing with muliticasing/datacasting, regardless of what their Net is sending them. If it really is the case that better encoders in the future improve things, then the ATSC recommmendation should be revised when those newer encoders are used -- I haven't seen it yet, though, and as they say, seeing is believing.

1080i = NO mullticasting, NO datacasting beyond what is available as oppurtunistic bandwidth.

720p - HD+1 SD subchannel is fine. HD + Datacasting that used, say 4.39 Mb/s(non-oppurtunistic bandwidth) of the 19.34mb/s available I think would be fine too. In other words, 14~16Mb/s for HD should be fine with 720p. I'm not saying I can't see the difference between what WDTN-DT/WCPO-DT gives us as compared to if they give it the full bandwidth available(such as WDTN-DT did at first), but, I find what they are doing HD wise+1 subchannel presently acceptable.

I'm not sure this is a ATSC recommendation, and I KNOW it isn't HD, but I think 16x9 480p ATSC format+ 2 SD programming services would be fine. I'd certianly much rather have HD, but if a station is going to send 2 SD programming services alongside HD, and therefore limit HD bandwidth to 11~13mb/s or so, I personally would rather see 480p 16x9 than HD full'o' compression artifacts.

Of course, the severity of the problem also often involves how "bandwidth demanding" the source material is. So, if say WKRC-DT would just switch to 720p for HD football/sports/etc, it would be an improvement -- But, then again, I've seen artifacts be a problem during "CSI", too.

While technically, I suppose you could still call it HD, if it is plagued by compression artifacts such as what we get during HD Football due to limited HD bandwidth from WKRC-DT/WHIO-DT during CBS Football, or just about anytime(even during upconverted widescreen programs) from any of the 3 current local PBS DTV stations, it just doesn't Look like HD anymore. Except when "stuff" doesn't move.

I can see the problem on a 17" PC monitor being Fed HD, from several feet away. Of course, it's much worse on my larger 38" HD display.

#2.) You guys are talking about "HD capable" displays and viewers, but I would submit that viewers will benefit who own any display that can support any higher rez than 480i 4x3 SD. 16x9 content sent via ANY of the 16x9 ATSC formats is an improvement over 16x9 content letterboxed inside a 4x3 frame, via ATSC or NTSC. There are 16x9 480p "ED" sets, and there are 4x3 HD and ED displays which support the full "rez" of 480p/i 16x9 ATSC formats via "vertical compression", and I'd think 16x9 sent as ATSC HD format would look decent(although not HD) on those sets too.

Granted, presently, most of the sets out there ARE 4x3 480i SD only sets, and, unfortunetly, there are even quite a few HD/ED capable sets which are being used for NOTHING excecpt to display 4x3 SD programming(perhaps besides your occasional, so called "anamorphic" DVD.) There should be fewer and fewer of the latter, as they finally figure out they are not really "seeing" HD or anything that closely approximates HD, and these folks(hopefully) really "upgrade" to HD. And in the future, due to tuner mandate and Plug and play agreement, HD/ATSC capability(for OTA AND digital cable in most circumstances) will be "built into" sets.

I'm thinking that in the future also, many, if not most 25" and above displays will have will have some "enhanced capability" to display resolutions greater than just 480i 4x3 SD. I could be wrong though.

16x9 sent as letterboxed inside a 480i 4x3 frame is definitely "low resolution" or, "low definition". Granted, we all know what DTV transistion is all about, but there is an oppurtunity here to improve television, and I'd like to see more of that happening. I don't personally call HD full of compression artifacts at 11mb/s or so an improvement.

#3). Certianly, I'm going to choose to watch a station which broadcasts 1080i at 18mb/s over the same programming at 480p at 11mb/s. However, I would CERTIANLY also choose the 480p station at 11mb/s vs. 1080i(or 720p for that matter) at 11mb/s -- probably even 15 mb/s if demanding source material such as HD football was being broadcast ..... HD just doesn't look like HD if it's full of compression artifacts, or if HD is "softened" to make compression artifacts less noticable ....

Anyone's DTV receiver seeing WPTD-DT tonight? Went to tune in at 8pm, and noticed neither of my receiver's could see them .... Checked 58 on a analog, non-screen muting TV and, instead of the "snow" I should be seeing, I'm seeing something tonight I've never seen before(see attached pic).

Update: Seeing WPTD-DT just fine again now at 9:45pm. I wonder what the heck that was though -- It looked consistant with WPTD-DT's signal, and was definitely coming from that direction.

Someplace I worked - I can't remember where - used to use VCRs to backup data, much like a computer tape backup works, now. If you'd put one of those backup tapes in your home VCR, that's exactly what the picture looked like.

Not that that helps you any..

Doc

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
Anyone's DTV receiver seeing WPTD-DT tonight? Went to tune in at 8pm, and noticed neither of my receiver's could see them .... Checked 58 on a analog, non-screen muting TV and, instead of the "snow" I should be seeing, I'm seeing something tonight I've never seen before


While I can't address what you were seeing... The problem was written up here as "Transmitter problem. Fixed at 21:15"

Interesting! And yes, it did very much look like a "analog view" of something digital.

Anyway, just glad it apparently didn't turn out to be too serious of a problem. I did some quick "tuning around" when it was happening, and it didn't seem like the signal went out-of-channel. "Clean snow" and good signals everywhere else they were supposed to be.

Another interesting thing I didn't mention was that the audio "behaved" pretty much like it would if there were a FM station on the air with carrier but no programming, although you could tell the Tuner AFT was wondering a bit -- On the audio side instead of white noise as I would have expected, I had silence ...

The Monday Night football game had reception problems on my set. Did anyone have problem reception? I finally switched to the Direct TV feed. I generally get a great picture on ABC. I did not check the meter to see if it was my set or the feed. It was raining in Green Bay.

LL

Laird, it wasn't a reception problem, it was a problem at ABC with the HD feed. See Itzme and Gerhard911's post on the last page, as well as the thread at link Gerhard911 posted.

Originally posted by Charles Cole
The problem was written up here as "Transmitter problem. Fixed at 21:15" You get those, too?? Can't count the number of times I've come in to just a piece of cellophane tape across a CD player or some other piece of equipment, requiring me to perform a CSI-style investigation to determine what the problem really is (there's usually NOTHING written up on the engineering log). Frequently, it's little more than a connector pulled loose or a cranky machine in need of a reboot. But it'll sit there all weekend like that.

Doc

Thanks Jeff

LL

Just ran across some bad news in the abstract of article ("NBC, Affils Forecast DTV Weather Channel"). at following link :

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA336279?verticalid=311&industry=Top+of+the+Week&industryid=1024&pubdate=11/17/2003

Here's a quote from the article

: "I don't think there is a TV station in the affiliate body that would say there is anything more strategic than weather," says Hearst-Argyle Television Executive Vice President Terry Mackin, who chairs the joint futures committee of NBC and its affilia..."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Sigh. I'm especially disappointed in the above, as, except for the short time we had PBS HD in all it's "glory" from WCET-DT in Dec 2002, WLWT-DT was once(not long ago) the place in Cincinnati/Dayton to see 1080i HD unencumbered by macroblocking -- Unfortunetly, the only times this was especially evident from NBC/WLWT-DT was during 2002 HD winter Olympics, and 2002 Triple crown.

Anyhow, seeing the above reminded me that I saw the ol' "screen door" effect in a couple of fast moving sections of "ER" in HD the past couple of weeks from WLWT-DT ... So, since WLWT-DT's Weather radar is still up, I sent them a note this afternoon asking them to drop the SD subchannel, for all the good it will do.

I guess as long as WXIX-DT sticks to giving everything to a single program service, I'll be switching channels quite often to Fox, and FOX HD probably in a year or so ... Of course ABC HD/ HD from WCPO-DT/WDTN-DT is "more or less" fine too, since they are doing 720p, there is room for 1 SD subchannel ...

As consumers we have been programmed to accept mediocrity. Among many other things this applies to channel bugs and reduced bitrate HD. :mad: I'm very pessimistic that this will change (for the better) in the future. I see all broadcasters participating in the heinous practice of broadcasting subchannels (as they currently do with channel bugs). The vast majority of consumers will not know the difference between full bitrate HD and the degraded HD that will be universally broadcast.

Pay channels are the only hope. But with the very likely possibility that cable and satellite companies will engage in additional compression & bit rate reduction of HD signals to make room for even more crap channels, I'm becoming very depressed about the future of HD. :(

And I'm not buying into the "influential advertiser" theory espoused here in the past. If the station's got the ratings, that's all the advertiser cares about, they couldn't care less about PQ

Originally posted by gerhard911
If the station's got the ratings, that's all the advertiser cares about, they couldn't care less about PQ

PQ IS important to advertisers, because advertisers know that people will (unconsiously or consciously) often tune into the stations which have good PQ. When their New Car ad becomes a blur of unrecognizable macroblocks in HD, believe me, they will be concerned.

I share your concerns, though. It doesn't help that many people are accustomed to the poor SD PQ that is often available via Cable(analog+digital) and DBS. I can't tell you the number of times that folks have come into my house, and have commented that the ANALOG PQ they see is the "best picture quality" they've seen. They allways ask who my cableco is, and sometimes they still don't believe me when I take them outside and POINT OUT the antenna.

Originally posted by DrDon

But, you're right: it won't happen until HDTV sets are as ubiquitous as stereo televisions are, now. Actually, it won't happen until the TV station GM is on the golf course with a potential $100K/mo client/HDTV owner who says, "My commercials don't look as good on your station as they do on the other station. Why is that?" The subchannels will disappear the very next day.

Doc

Couldn't agree more Doc - when the station GM gets a 50" HDTV, and if he's an football fanatic, and see's the incredibly poor picture quality of the CBS HD games, then the station bandwidth deficiencies will be addressed.

I'm gonna throw a party for this years Super Bowl, with as much the intent of offering friends the SB on HD, my only reservation is it's on CBS. But when the camera is on something not in heavy motion, the picture looks brilliant, if even only for a second or so. Unfortunately, football games usually have quite a bit of fast moving action. I'm hoping that the friends will have enuff booze in them to think it's their eyes playing the games on them, and not the TV.

Fingers are crossed that the GM will turn into an HD fanactic, like maybe tomorrow, and either give us more BW, or move it to a 720p feed.. The best hopes of mice and men -

hp

I think you'll find your friends are less observant than you are. My neighbors come over week after week to see the NFL CBS games and, while not as bad on DirecTV as it is on WKRC-DT, there are still plenty of artifacts. All they say is "wow." Most can't even tell when an SD camera is in use. I have one neighbor who has finally figured out the difference between HD and Fox Widescreen. He can tell. Took him a year. And he's an engineer!

I'm starting to doubt my GM argument. I now think it'll be the GM's SON who has the first HD set in the house (or in his own house). "Hey, dad. Your picture STINKS." Again, it'll be fixed the next day <g>.

Doc

No matter who tells the GM "your picture stinks", if there is a revenue stream attached to the reason why it stinks, I seriously doubt it will get "fixed". It might, however, get "tweaked" a bit within the confines of whatever is taking away bandwidth from the HD broadcast.

In my previous post I should have been more specific with my comment about advertisers and PQ. I intended the comment to refer to the difference in PQ between full bandwidth HD and what we are currently getting from WKRC-HD. Of course they would complain about a picture that's "an unrecognizable blur of macro blocks".

I believe that Doc's observation about his neighbors substantiates my contention. We are fanatics and expect perfection. The vast majority will be perfectly happy with the degraded HD they will receive.

I had a friend over the other night...he hadn't seen my new TV yet. I turned it on and he said "wow!" I looked and it was some 4:3 compressed SDTV crap coming off the TiVo (even more compression). I shook my head and wondered why I was bothering.

When I flipped over to the cable feed and popped up DiscoveryHD, his eyes bugged and he didn't say anything for about a minute and a half. I was happier.

Then, about 20 minutes later I flipped over to a channel with a decent-quality SD feed and he said "wow...HD sure looks nice." [sigh] Pearls before swine ;-p

Originally posted by gerhard911
I intended the comment to refer to the difference in PQ between full bandwidth HD and what we are currently getting from WKRC-HD. Of course they would complain about a picture that's "an unrecognizable blur of macro blocks".


That's what I'm talking about too, I took your comment as it was intended. If "portions" of my Ad looks like HD does on WKRC-HD during certain portions of HD football(and again, I've even seen it happen during CSI), I'd be complaining. I probably shouldn't have used the word "unrecognizable", as of course we know what we are looking at, just as is the case when rushing water on the local PBS HD stations is chock full o' macroblocks due to too little bandwidth being allocated to HD.

I do know My 77 Year old Father with cataracts sees the problem from 15 feet away from a 38" HD display. He doesn't have a "golden eye". It is NOT a subtle thing.

Hello fellow Cincinnatians.

I looking to purchase a HDTV box for over the air reception. Do any of you have a recomendation?

I am looking at the RCA ATSC11 or 21, or the LG LST-3100a. I am not sure if I need the NTSC tuner with the box or not. I don't have cable nor do I plan on getting it. I like my TV free!!

With just the ATSC tuner, will I be able to watch anything at any time and still get a good picture? Seeing how not everything is in HD, I'm worried about watching non-HD broadcast and still getting a decent picture.

Let me know what your experience is.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Mark.

Mark..
I have a Samsung T-151 as my SECOND tuner just for SD broadcasts. The ATSC transmission of either standard-definition programming (WB64, WCVN, WCET) or upconverted programming comes out studio quality on a standard television. The only way to get a better picture is to be watching off of the studio monitors down at the station. All but WXIX do a good job of upconverting. WXIX-DT seems to have a lot more jaggies than, say, WLWT. You'll be thrilled.

To all ...on another matter..

Spoke with a promotions person at WSTR (WB64) and learned some interesting things. The reason they're not passing WB's HD programming is that, according to their most recent figures - which, he admitted, could be a year old or more - the number of Cincinnatians able to receive HDTV broadcasts is in - and I quote - "the single digits." He said I was the first person he'd ever met who owned an HDTV. Fortunately, while I was in our lobby talking to him, half of our staff walked up and chimed in, "Oh, I've got one." "So do I." "Me, too." He was flabbergasted.

He's supposed to be sending me his e-mail address and wants me to forward that to "viewers with HDTVs." I told him we've all written to the feedback address at wb64.net, but he says letters left there never reach management.

So, if you'd be interested in campaigning, let me know and I'll post it as soon as I get it.

Doc

Howdy to all fellow HD cincy viewers!

Quick question, does anyone else get "vibration" from WXIX-DT? I can only compare it to a computer monitor that needs an adjustment to the refresh rate. All other OTA DT channels in Cincy look fine, just WXIX. The signal quality is locked at 69%. (Could be better with a pre-amp)

Any suggestions would be appreciated.


FYI - Using a Rat Shack 80" boom in attic, no preamp, and about 50ft or so of RG-6 (best guess). I know I getting loss in the run...had DT rec. at antenna on install, got 100% signal qual. on WLWT and WKRC, and in the 90s for WXIX and WCPO...until adding the long run. Considering a preamp.

Regarding WXIX--I also get a subtle but noticeable jitter (flicker?). I first noticed it during the baseball playoff games and football games. It seems worse on telephoto shots where the camera might be experiencing some movement of its own. I'm not as aware of it on filmed programming. I assumed it was a problem with the fact they transmit in 480p and thought my receiver (Samsung TS160) was having a hard time upconverting the signal.

Yeah, I was kinda guessing it was a problem with the upconversion. Unfortunately, I see the "jitter" all of the time.

I notice the jitter on WXIX-DT all the time. It drives me crazy. I thought they were upconverting to 1080i though.

VWNut,

Also, Anything that's called a "TV set" or "VCR" already has a NTSC tuner in it which you can receive the analog stations with. For the most part, the Cincy digital stations are up 24/7, but WXIX-DT currently "generally" is on the air only from 12pm~12am, and WCET-DT only operates 8am-11pm. Analog WCET goes off air at about 12:30am every night, too.

WBQC-CA 25(UPN Cincy - supposed to be moving to 38 "soon" and increasing power), WOTH-LP 38(Home shopping Cincy - will be moving to 25 sometime soon) and W61DE(61 TBN translator cincy) are only currently on the air with analog signals, they probably won't have digital stations for a few years yet.

WKOI(TBN - Tower between Oxford+Trenton, Oh) Has a digital station, but their directional antenna's pattern doesn't favor your direction - WPTO-DT (PBS/ThinkTV - Analog is on 14 broadcasting from Oxford) isn't on air yet, but will be broadcasting from WXIX tower, right now looks like sometime in Jan/feb.

Anyhow From Ft. Thomas, you should be good to go for hopefully fairly easy reception of the everything else from Cincy -- Maybe even Dayton with a decent antenna setup. Except for a LP religious station that's too LP to pull in from KY anyway, all the Dayton stations have digital stations on the air 24/7.

Doc,

Thanks for the WSTR info. Might as well send me the contact info for the WSTR guy.

All,

I'm pretty sure WXIX-DT is still upconverting everything to 1080i. For the most part, The "jaggies" Doc is referring to are most noticable here for some reason when I output from receiver at 480i to a "plain old SD TV", and only when they are doing local/Syndicated programming. I've never seen the jaggies when they are "correctly" passing though the Fox digital programming.

Also, I have seen the jitter too, but it's been a long time -- Last time I recall seeing it was during a couple of NFL games last season, and even then I've only seen it on a PC monitor being Fed either 1080i, 720p, or 480p, don't think I ever have seen it on my "main" HD display.

Speaking of WXIX-DT, don't know what happened to them on Sunday, but noticed they were in "weirdscreen mode" for Fox News Sunday, then NFL pregame was widescreen and fine, Then, for the TB game, instead of widescreen as it was supposed to be, it looked to be the same video that was on the analog station --- Same thing for Fox prime on Sunday(which was the case the week before too, I assume because of a game delay).

---------------

Hopefully we'll get to see the Bengals in HD or Fox widescreen soon. And Poppo reported on S.O.A.S. Sunday night that MNF called them and asked for 'Cpo's game highlights ... Something that hasn't happened in a Loooong time! So, if nothing else, we should have a good shot of seeing Bengals in HD on MNF Next year. Also, OT, but heard on the Bengals radio show that NFL films was doing some work at the game on Sunday ..

Jeff,

This is my first post in AVSForum. I've been lurking for a while.

Regarding the Bengals, The Bengals/Chiefs were the HD game of the week last night on the NFL channel (84 on D*). They had the game condensed to an hour with tons of sideline and locker room scenes. Very nice. Not a scene out of focus and multiangles on Peter Warwick's TDs.

Greg

Greg..
Yeah, guess I should have posted something over here.. there's a thread on it going over in Programming. I'm wondering if it replays today. Last week, they re-ran it at 4pm ..which is when I watch it, thanks to my stupid hours.

Doc

I'd seen that thread on Bengals/Chiefs game in programming area, I probably should have mentioned it too ... Not sure, but you guys are probably seeing the first Bengals HD footage to be broadcast ...

Greg,

Welcome to AVSforum! Did you get that Delhi VIP-307SR up yet? It's probably the best broadband VHF ch 2-13 out there, where directivity+Gain are concerned. I know a fellow down in Lexington that uses one, he has a nice pic of it about 1/2 way down this page:

http://www.dxfm.com/Content/tools.htm

It's pattern is similar(actually, I think its even a little "tighter" if I remember right) than the gain pattern graphic of the APS-13 FM antenna also shown on that page. BTW, lots of other nifty stuff on his website, main page is:

http://www.dxfm.com

Jeff, I just wrote a 4900 character reply and the system ate the message. So I'll give you the short form.

I have not put it on my 35' tower, but have tested it on a 10' pole.

With CM7776 preamp and ch 2 and 7 jointennas to knock down the local VHF stations, I can pick up Chs 11 and 13 from Toledo pretty well. When I get it up on the tower, I hope the range will be even better, I fully expect to get a reasonable VHF signals from Indianapolis with a possible shot at WISH-DT if WCPO doesn't interfere.

It significantly improved Chs 4, 6, 9, 10, and 12. Didn't do much for Ch 5 as the big problem there appears to be impulse noise.

Greg

Sounds like you're in for some fun during Band openings.

If you haven't seen it yet, another one you might want to look for would be WLIO-DT 8 out of Lima, OH - If WISH 8 doesn't noise it up too much. Last I heard, They're running quite LP, at something like 460 watts ERP with antenna nowhere near as high as their analog on 35, but I'd say you've got a shot at seeing them, at least with a little tropo scatter.

Recently, I've been getting frequent audio dropouts of about 1 second on WKRC-DT OTA. Right now, the problem is occurring on the Cleveland-Pittsburgh NFL game. No problem on the other local channels or via DirecTV.

Anyone else seeing this?

My setup is Sony HD200 receiver that is video connected via DVI to a Sony TV and audio connected via optical to a Denon 4802 receiver.

Thanks,
AJ

AJ..
Hmmm. Only ran with the Steelers game on WCRC-DT for the first half and didn't notice anything. I watched via analog for the 2nd half (so I could dedicate the tuner to a different Sunday Ticket game). Watched most of "60 Minutes" via 31 with no dropouts, either.

Doc

On the WBQC move to channel 38, an Enquirer article had the move being made before November 1st. That oviously hasn't happened. I called the station, and the receptionist, for what it's worth, indicated that the move won't happen until the first of the year.

FYI, I've updated first post of this thread to point to the links to past Cincy threads which are now in the avsforum archive area.

-------------------

Doc,

I think they should have called it "90 minutes" last night ;-) - At least in Cincy and Dayton. That's 2 Sundays in a row with no CBS HD as scheduled, I'm guessing because of 4pm Games running over.

---------------------

Clarke,

Thanks for the info. I guess all we can do is wait and see when it happens. Dates subject to change of course, but FCC CDBS database indicates WOTH-LP's current STA for 38 expires on 12/11/03, and WBQC-CA's CP for 38 Expires on 12/31/04.

I saw something slightly wrong with WKRC-DT from here in north of Dayton. Seemed to have skipping frames and slight audio pops frequently during pre-game and first half. I switched to WHIO-DT for most of the game with no problems. I did tune back to WKRC-DT later in the day and all was well. I was using my Zenith HD520, which is a close 'kin' to your Sony. It might be something receiver specific. Signal level/quality seemed a little lower than normal, but was of decent level overall.

Greg

Originally posted by AJ500
Recently, I've been getting frequent audio dropouts of about 1 second on WKRC-DT OTA. Right now, the problem is occurring on the Cleveland-Pittsburgh NFL game. No problem on the other local channels or via DirecTV.

Some good news(at least for now) ... Received a reply from WLWT's DOE concerning their SD Radar sub. He said they will be turning off the SD sub for the time being(I take it that means very soon) .. But he also said, "who knows what the future holds".

I guess that's the question on all of our minds where allocating enough bandwidth to HD is concerned, especially since a number of stations in our area aren't allocating enough bandwidth to HD currently. Of course, I understand that broadcasters have a business to run, and it only makes sense that they are trying to make the most of things. But, IMO, they really should pay close attention to ATSC recommendations on this issue.

----------------------------------------

Oh, concerning WKRC-DT on Sunday afternoon, I can't give a very good report as I was also was watching either WHIO-DT, or the analogs - the latter because I prefer listening to Radio Coverage of Bengals game, as the audio synch's up better with the analog. I did watch 60 minutes and recorded the movie on WKRC-DT Sunday night, and I didn't see any problems on a RCA DTC-100 or Zenith HDV420 at that time.

Jeff.
I'll bet it all hinges on must-carry rules. No point in fronting a "weather network" or some other stream if 50% of the homes can't see it. But I can't see forcing subchannel must-carry rules on cable outlets when it's possible every broadcaster in the viewing area could pump out five channels. While that's a lot, here, imagine Chicago, LA or cities with twice as many broadcast outlets as we have. Let's just hope Washington sees it the same way. If they do, then we're back to PQ issues and we all know which way THAT table will eventually tilt.

On the matter of dropped frames, it's probably only a coincidence, but the CBS-fed HD NFL game on DirecTV has similar issues every week. The 5.1 will go away for a second, then come back. The picture may blink, too. A couple of times CBS put up the SD feed of the game until the problems ceased. I know that's not the same thing WKRC was sending, but it made me think about it.

Doc

Doc,

Yeah. Seems to me that cable carriage of mulitple programming services should be an issue of negotiation between the cableco+broadcaster. If there's a demand, or perceived "need" for the multicast programming service, then I'd think the cableco will likely want it.

On the other hand, It's a different situation with non-comms, but unfortunetly(for PBS HD viewers anyway) the PBS affiliates in our area have shown they don't need must carry for the cableco's to carry all their SD program services, such as "PBS Kids". So, for whatever reason, Cable evidently wants PBS kids, and evidently doesn't mind PBS HD/Widescreen Chock full o' macroblocks, and yet(the way I understand it anyway, I could be wrong) they won't carry Fox Widescreen because it isn't HD. Go figure.

Which is why we are running 720p instead of 1080i.

Back to lurking....

William

I think using 720p is a better choice than 1080i for KET4 - To me, it looks like compression artifacts are less of a problem overall on KET4 than is the case with CET HD or Think16 HD. But, I'd think 480p(unfortunetly) would be an even better choice for all 3 stations -- Although, of course, then it wouldn't be HD, and we wouldn't get that beautiful HD picture when the HD programming isn't all that bandwidth demanding(I.e. things aren't moving around too much).

Even better would be if it was 720p on KET4+KET1 Only. If only that could ever work .....

Also, It's likely my equipment+the fact that my display is native 1080i, but 720p from KET4 does usually look soft in comparison to 1080i from WCET-DT or WPTD-DT. For some reason, I'm not getting that from WCPO/WDTN-DT's ABC 720p, at least not to the degree I expected when WCPO-DT was upconverting to 1080i. Although, at times(not allways) WCPO-DT's HD does look "sharper" than WDTN-DT. If ABC's planned SD Newschannel ends up happening, I wonder what WCPO-DT will do? If they carry it, for example, what happens to their weather subchannel ....

Anyhow, looking forward to "Farm Aid" in HD tonight on KET4, WCET-DT+WPTD-DT, If its DD 5.1, will have to choose between PQ + Audio, as WCET-DT has been in "DD 5.1" mode lately.

------------------------------------

Oh, at 11:40am, I'm pleased to see ABC HD from Both WCPO-DT/WDTN-DT AND WXIX-DT is in Fox Widescreen Mode already!

If its in DD5.1 from PBS its in DD5.1 on KET4... It never goes to analog..

William

I'll check it tonight, but so far, of the 14 Cincy/Dayton DTV stations I've only "heard" WPTD-DT, WCET-DT and WDTN-DT do Discrete 5.1 channel Audio - DD 5.1.

So far, I've only heard DD 2.0 ("Prologic" - Surround sound is "encoded" into 2 discrete channels - Doesn't have to be an analog source) from WCVN-DT and the rest ... Besides hearing it, my decoder will tell me what I'm getting too ...

Of course, don't know if the program tonight was produced in DD 5.1, which it would need to be. This season's "Soundstage" shows usually have been.

More info here:

http://www.dolby.com/digital/

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Update 10pm :

Wasn't able to get to the setup here with more than 2 channel audio, or any indication of "what's what" until 9:45pm at which time this is what I found:

WCVN-DT/KET4 - "True DD 5.1" -- Sounds Great! Maybe my memory is fuzzy, but this is the first time I can recall this happening.

WCET-DT/CET-HD - Decoder says it's DD 5.1 -- But it's 2 Channel audio only(L+R front).

WPTD-DT/ThinkDTV HD - DD 2.0/Prologic.

Thoughts, notes and a rant..

Kudos to WLWT-DT for being on top of the Harry Connick special. But you can sure tell they're running a subchannel, now. WKEF apparently didn't get the memo.

Still WLWT-DT's concert had fewer artifacts that WKRC-DT's football game. And that was tied with Farm Aid on WCET-DT. Rather pathetic. I can't wait for the PQ battles to start. What's really funny is that, in the short run, WXIX-DT will probably win if they clear Fox-HD, next fall without a subchannel. Their "necessary evil" attitude toward DTV just might play to our favor. (although it was annoying losing the sound to "24" for a whole segment, this week)

I guess it's good that those coming into HDTV are still experiencing the WOW factor, but it's also a shame it may be a while before they see what we early birds got to see early on... the PBS demo loop uncompressed... Leno on a full channel or even HDNet on DirecTV when it had a whole transponder to itself. Man, those were some beautiful pictures.

The broadcasters are setting themselves up to be one-upped by cable, again. At least in the short run. <g>.

Doc [/vent]

I updated my original (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2788610#post2788610) Insight HD post because the minimum cost is higher. Insight will not let you take just the HD box ($2.00), you also have to take the digital box ($7.95).

Here is my evaluation of the HD pack:

774 - Bravo HD+ is mostly arts (plays, performance) and Salt Lake City Olympic reruns, in top HD quality.

775 - ESPN HD has virtually no real HD programming, other that one weekend college and pro football game and their Playmakers drama/soap opera. It is a simulcast of regular ESPN SD 4x3 channel, stretched to fill a 16x9 frame. I refuse to watch stretched material. What happened to the $30 million for 60 HD cameras? Are they all going in the new studio in Bristol? Where are they already. That phony "NBA in HD" banner at the season opener was BS -- stretched SD is all they showed. More BS is all the commercials that are on that are supposed to look 16x9 HD to 3x4 SD viewers, but are lame little postage stamps in the middle of real HD screens, like my 4x3, 36" Sony XBR 1080i.

776 - Discovery HD Theater has all HD all the time. Very nice to watch some shows on insects in HD. Not such a big deal to watch home renovation in HD. They have original programming too, and do not upconvert non-HD shows from the regular Discover channel. Top HD quality.

777 - HD Net also has all HD material. They will show a variety of shows, some educational, some HD loops to fill time, some original programming, occasional HD sports. Some is upconverted (Hogan's Heroes), but it is very little--I hardly ever see any non-native HD. Top HD quality.

778 - HD Net Movies are upconverted. Certiainly none were filmed in HD. Nevertheless, the pictures are cleaned up and there are fewer film artifacts than your normal SD presentation, it seems. Comparing the upconverted material to native HD makes you appreciate the difference. I don't know if this is any better than a digital picture. Decent picture, but not real HD quality.

You guys who hunt and peck for the maybe-once-a-month over-the-air movie upconvert should consider HDNet Movies, 24-hours a day of the stuff. The movies are shown several times, like a premium channel.

The new Insight HD box with built-in PVR (for recording in HD) is rolling out Monday, December 1. Call Cory at Insight, 431-0300 x.250, and he will waive the installation fee for those who already have the old boxes. Maybe he can help the newbies too, I don't know.

I may drop the HD pack, but seeing how I paid for the original install and considering how much I dislike commercials, it may be around awhile longer. IT'S ALL COMMERCIAL FREE, ;) except for ESPN. There are a couple of shows I am looking forward to, like the martial arts special on Discovery HD Theater in a week or two, and the John Wooden college basketball classic this Saturday, with Louisville v. Iowa, and Indiana v. Xavier. That'll be my first basketball in HD, which should be awesome. College basketball was a major reason I got the HD service. I don't know when ESPN will start showing any.

Originally posted by DrDon
Still WLWT-DT's concert had fewer artifacts that WKRC-DT's football game. And that was tied with Farm Aid on WCET-DT. Rather pathetic.


I'll rant on a little too, since you made such a fine post.

Anyhow, Yeah. Pathetic is right. I thought certian portions of Farm Aid HD looked pretty bad on all 3 local stations. Enjoyed the TB vs. Detroit game in Fox Widescreen on WXIX-DT though. No compression artifact problems there, even though they upconvert to 1080i. Hope it stays that way after Fox goes HD.

Anyhow, go figure, even though ATSC recommendations seem pretty clear on this issue(to me anyway), I'm thinking that maybe, just maybe at this point they just don't really know how BAD it looks at those times when the source material is especially demanding. One thing I've heard is, "most of the programming we run doesn't require the "full bandwidth" ... Well, that just doesn't cut it, since portions of HD programming which DOES require say, 18mb/s for 1080i, 15~16mb/s for 720p can creep in AT ANY TIME.

I think everyone(GM's. CE's, Salesreps,) at the local stations should be required to sit and watch a loop lasting a couple of hours of their reduced bandwidth HD on a ~25~40" HD display. Another display sitting beside it with 1080HD at 18~19mb/s, and 720p at 15~19mb/s would make for a nice comparision too. Here's some of the programming that could go in the loop:

1.) Shot from "Tropicana Juice Train" Tracks Ahead Episode of oranges going down a conveyor belt ...
3.) The "Dancing Indian" in Neil Young's Farm aid set.
4.) All the portions of CBS HD football/CSI/etc. that suffer from compression artifacts due to too little bandwidth allocated by WKRC-DT/WHIO-DT.

Heck,IMO, even 480i NTSC ANALOG looks better than the "squeezed HD bandwidth" version of the above mentioned HD "excepts".

Lots of other examples which could also go into this loop, -- Waterfalls, White Water on the Colorado river/etc ... Basically, whenever the camera, or anything in the frame "moves around" fairly quickly, especially when there is a lot of detail -- I've even noticed a lot of the PBS Widescreen material ends up really chock full o' macroblocks, since its being upconverted to HD anyway .....

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
they just don't really know how BAD it looks I may have mentioned this, before -- and I don't know about the other stations -- but there's not one HDTV in the whole WKRC studio/control room area. Not one. Not in Master Control, not in the newsroom.. nowhere. The only set in the whole building is a Sony direct view in the reception area which, you know, is most likely off on the weekends. So, if they never see it, it's no surprise they don't know how poor it looks.

Yeah, they should be required to watch. For that matter, Master Control should at least have a monitor beyond the 4:3 480i 5" rack-mount one they're using (The HD picture is squeezed onto the monitor)

Doc

Okay, I'll give you a choice... 720p or 480p Widescreen for KET4 or drop the HD all together...

You might not believe it but I worked for weeks to get the HD feed looking as good as it does and its a pain for Mike C. and I to remember to program the system to switch to HD mode and back...

Right now the system has to support KET1 and KET2 24/7, KET3 20hrs/day, and KET4 SD for 20 hrs/day... minimal. When the PBS HD service starts in December something might change a little.

I have never said or implied that our KET4 signal was perfect for all programming but its the best we can do right now...

William

William,
I believe that KET4 has great 720p HDTV. The main problem with stations such as WCET and Think16 is running the 1080i at the same time as two other 4:3 480i channels. If the cable companies didn't need to receive these feeds from the station, we would be allowed full bandwidth. I have seen full PBS bandwidth, it is awesome. My belief is that sub-channels should be turned off. People have spent a lot of money to watch HD, not Dtv. People want HDTV, thats the advantage of paying for it, if we want extra channels, go with cable or sat, but for good quality picture, full bandwidth is a requirement in my mind.

Originally posted by William Smith
Okay, I'll give you a choice... 720p or 480p Widescreen for KET4 or drop the HD all together...
William

If it were my choice, given the circumstances involved for KET digital presently, I'd likely chose 480p for KET4 during "HD/PBS Widescreen" programming. Couple of reasons :

#1). At least presently, much of the PBS 16x9 programming broadcast at 720p on KET4 is SD widescreen source material anyhow.

#2) I'd of course prefer HD, but since I'm not being given the choice of 1080i HD at 18mb/s+, or 720p HD at 14~16mb/s .... I'd rather see "compression artifact free" 480p than a dancing Indian that turns into macroblocks at 720p. To me, even 480p 16x9 ATSC format is a BIG improvement over letterboxing 16x9 programming inside a 4x3 "SD" frame.

Of course, that's just me, and without actually seeing it to see what it looks like at 480p. The only time I've seen 480p 16x9 ATSC format was via KET4 before you upgraded your STL for "full bandwidth" ATSC, so I'm just guessing it looks "pretty much" like a DVD via component video with 16x9 NTSC Video scanned at 480p.

Of course, others might have a different opinion, perhaps especially others whose only available source for PBS HD is KET4. Just a suggestion, but, if it doesn't cause too much "difficulty" maybe you could try it at 480p and see what viewers think ...

Granted, 720p from KET4 looks better, overall, compression artifact wise than the present state of 1080i from WCET-DT and WPTD-DT. But, when especially demanding sections of HD programming are involved, at least to my eyes, there doesn't usually appear to be all that much of a difference in artifacts among the 3 stations, presently.

Originally posted by William Smith
You might not believe it but I worked for weeks to get the HD feed looking as good as it does ....


I believe it, especially since I remember some of it. I should have provided more clarification, but my earlier comments concerning station personel watching HD from their stations certianly wasn't meant to be directed at KET engineers, or any broadcast engineer at the local stations for that matter.

Also, I certianly appreciate the DTV/HD work by yourself+others at KET. When you first started doing HD earlier this year, I thought 720p was the best thing you could have done, and was the best overall compromise given the circumstances involved. But, now I think there's just no escaping the fact 720p really needs more bandwidth than you can allocate to HD given KET's present "DTV situation".

Originally posted by William Smith
Right now the system has to support KET1 and KET2 24/7, KET3 20hrs/day, and KET4 SD for 20 hrs/day... minimal.


I certianly understand that KET is in a "unique" situation DTV wise --- For example, where providing educational programming to schools is concerned, and also on the technical side of things to "feed" KET1 statewide analog transmitters and WKMJ/KET2 transmitter/etc ... The way I understand it, KET's situation is not common to the other local PBS affiliates here.

Personally, where KET digital specifically is concerned, I'm just glad to have "snow free" and dropout free reception of KET1 via OTA DTV from my location, as I've been watching KET1 with "snow" via WCVN 54 for some 20 years, mostly for programming produced by KET which I enjoy. Where PBS HD is concerned, I'd be happy if just ONE of the 4 local PBS stations would allocate "enough" bandwidth to HD so compression artifacts aren't a problem. It doesn't HAVE to be KET, especially since there will soon be 3 PBS digital affiliates broadcasting from towers within 6 miles of each other in Cincinnati/N KY. And, I'm also already happy with WPTD-DT/ThinkTV's current HD schedule, as well as their plans to expand their HD service in Janurary.

I guess the thing that gets me is, the stations in the area, for the most part seemed to stay on the air for 30-50+ years by broadcasting a SINGLE program service per station. Now, with HD, the quality of service I'm getting is often suffering because broadcasters want to have their cake and eat it too.

For instance (not in KET's circumstance as I understand it), it seems broadcasters want to reduce HD quality(and therefore reduce their level of service to me, in my case as an over-the-air viewer) so they can be a provider of multiple SD services to cablecos+their subscribers, or to serve "paying customers" via subscription servies such as datacasting.

As I said before, it's certianly understandable that broadcasters want to make the most out of DTV -- But, like it or not, HD is one of the improvements we are getting from DTV --- An important one for those of us
whom have purchased or will purchase equipment for HD. We expect our local stations to provide "high quality HD", and SD too for that matter. So, it's a pretty hard pill to swallow that whenever "stuff moves around too much", when stations aren't allocating enough bandwidth to HD it ends up being the case(given good "reception") we receive better quality from NTSC analog SD ...

Sure, I'd like it if we could all have our cake and eat it too, I'd like to have compression artifact "free" HD alongside 2, 3 or even 4 SD services with quality programming available from each station "free to air", but we can't.

Beyond available oppurtunistic bandwidth, Multicasting when HD isn't "available", or 720p+1 SD program service(or equivilent bandwith used for datacasting/etc), more RF bandwidth would have been the only way to have our cake and eat it too, and we know that didn't/isn't going to happen.

Also, there is the old saying, "give'em an inch and they'll take a mile", well, in many cases(at least in our area) it's a saying that seems to be very accurate where DTV/HD broadcasting is concerned.

So, I hate to see it happen(and I know this unfortunetly likely won't happen), but since broadcasters can't seem to "figure it out for themselves", what I think really needs to happen is : Picture Quality/Minimum bandwidth standards for OTA HD AND SD via ATSC need to be mandated. And, given the apparent stubborness of many broadcasters on this issue, since this might mean some broadcasters would just "drop HD" because of quality standards, it seems this would also mean HD would need to be mandated.

Just my .02 ....

Originally posted by William Smith
When the PBS HD service starts in December something might change a little.


Good to hear some potentially good news --- That is, if this ends up meaning more HD/PBS widescreen from KET4, or if the HD could get a bit more bandwidth ..

Sorry to blow up... Sometimes I feel like I get it from both ends... I get "why are you wasting your time on that.." questions at work and "whatever you can do isn't enough" from the crowd here at AVS..Most of the people I work with don't understand DTV they see it as added workload at a time when our resources are very limited...

Back to grant writing,,,

William

Troubleshooting Help Request.

I'm having reception problems with WKRC-DT.

Here's the situation.
Sony HD200 receiver with rooftop antenna
Location: 39' 18.218 84' 32.982

Station Signal Strength
WKRC 12 analog Good
WKRCDT 12.1 Bad to Normal with often shifts
WCPODT 9.1 Good
WCPO 9 analog Good
WLWTDT 5.1 Good
WLWT 5 analog Good
WCET 48.1 Good
WCET 48 analog Good

WKRCDT's signal will go from normal to bad signal strength and back again every few seconds. This problem started about 2 weeks ago. Until then I've had no problems receiving WRKCDT.

Is this possibly an antenna problem? The antenna does point toward a tree that no longer has its leaves. But, I was having no problems this summer or last winter. And, there's no problems with other channels. Do any of the good channels share the antenna with WKRC?

I don't think it's a receiver problem as channel 12.1 is the only channel having the problem.

Is the most likely cause, assuming that no one else is having problems receiving WKRCDT, the position of the antenna? Maybe the wind slightly shifted the antenna so I'm getting multipath problems.

Thanks,
AJ

Originally posted by AJ500
Is this possibly an antenna problem? The antenna does point toward a tree that no longer has its leaves. But, I was having no problems this summer or last winter. And, there's no problems with other channels. Do any of the good channels share the antenna with WKRC?

I don't think it's a receiver problem as channel 12.1 is the only channel having the problem.

Is the most likely cause, assuming that no one else is having problems receiving WKRCDT, the position of the antenna? Maybe the wind slightly shifted the antenna so I'm getting multipath problems.


First, off, keep in mind, even though it might say its a "signal strength" meter, it isn't. "Signal Quality meter" is a good way to look at it. Multipath, various interference issues, getting too much signal which is overloading a preamp+causing Intermodulation distortion, or even Front End Tuner Overload, receiver selectivity issues with 1st adjacent channel signals(which shouldn't be an issue for you) could all be things which can cause your signal quality meter to fluctuate as you are seeing, whearas the actual "signal strength" your getting from the station really isn't going to fluctuate.

FWIW, I've not had any problems with WKRC-DT reception(or reception ofanything else for that matter) here, nor have I noticed any change. When the leaves go off trees, I get some ghosting on WKRC 12, but it doesn't seem to effect 31, although of course various "issues" such as multipath can be quite frequency specific.

None of the "good channels" you are getting share WKRC's tower, but WCPO-DT tower is in the same direction ... It's only a block or two away from WKRC. Analogs WBQC 25+WOTH-LP 38 are also on WCPO's tower.

It's a bit Strange though that this is first time you've seen the problem, going through all the seasons over the past year with no problems. So, it Sounds like wind shifting the antenna is a good "hypotheses", and I'd probably check that first, especially if you've noticed any change in quality from any of the analog stations - WBQC, WOTH-LP, WKRC 12 or WCPO 9 specifically. The biggest other possiblility I could think of might be some sort of odd "interference related" issue which is happening.

Anyhow, I did a elevation profile from your location to WKRC tower, and it looks like there is a terrain issue involved, which looks like it could be a factor involved for you as well. If re-orientating the antenna doesn't work, and if you can detirmine it's not a interference/overload issue involved, it might not be a bad idea to try to find a better "sweet spot" for your antenna, or try an antenna with more directivity.

Attached below is the profile, you're at 0 mile marker -- I've drawn in the height of WKRC-DT transmitting antenna as well as the direct "line of sight" signal path --- This doesn't take curvature of Earth into account, so it's actually a little worse than it looks. While this might look bad, from what I've seen, it's really usually quite possible to overcome a fairly minor terrain issue such as this from your distance, especially given WKRC-DT's high power signal -- Hopefully, the wind shifted your antenna a bit, and the "right" antenna aiming will do the trick. Terrain looks the same to WCPO/WCPO-DT tower, but keep in mind, since WCPO is on VHF, it is a longer wavelength, and can more easily "bend" over hills than is the case with UHF.

I'd think it unlikely, but I suppose that its also possible that given your terrain issue, something on the transmission side, such as a little less power output due to a tube going weak or something could be an issue as well -- Although, I've seen no problems here from 32 miles out from their tower, with WKRC-DT's very strong signal -- I can aim quite directional antenna in just about any direction and get them just fine for the most part, even though severe multipath destroys analog reception if antenna is aimed much more than 10-20 degrees off target ..

So, just a lot of guessing, Hope this helps+good luck,

Update: Oh yes -- Seems like from your location you should also be getting WSTR-DT 64.1(33 RF), WXIX-DT 19.1(29 RF) and WCVN-DT 54.x(24 RF) as well, although the terrain issue might even be more of a problem with WCVN-DT. You should be able to get Dayton, too with your antenna aimed that way.

Thanks, Jeff, for your analysis.

I'm going with the wind shift theory for now. If it's clear tomorrow, I'll climb up on the roof and tweak the antenna direction to see if I can get the signal back consistently again (I knew I should have put a rotor up--another job for next Spring).

I originally pointed the antenna at about 180 degrees as I recall. There's a water tower 1.2 miles off at about 240 degrees. I wonder if I'm getting multipath from that.

Yes, I get good reception from 64.1 and 19.1, but none on WCVN analog or digital. Maybe that calls for a rotor as well. I'm using a ChannelMaster 3677 antenna. Or, maybe the terrain obstruction you observed is the problem.

AJ

AJ,


Well, CM3677 would seem to be a fine antenna choice for your location. Hard to say, but I doubt if the water tower is causing the problem. 180 degrees should be a good heading to use, for all the Cincy/N Ky stations.

I show all of the transmitters between 174 and 184 degrees (corrected for magnetic deviaition) and between 169 and 179 degree true bearing. WCVN is at 178 degree "magnetic" bearing, about right in the middle, WKRC/WCPO at 174 degrees, and WXIX at 184 degrees. So, One heading should work just fine for all.

Hopefully, the antenna just went a little off target, but aiming right into a tree trunk that's quite nearby isn't the best thing either. Overall though, I'm speculating that the main problem you might be having is the terrain issue involved. So, Finding a "sweet spot" for your antenna, which might involve moving it to the Left, right, or up a bit if at all possible might also be of some benefit ... OR, because of the terrain issue, a little bit "higher gain" antenna may be of use to you overall, especially one that does a bit better job on UHF --- If this is the case, "optimizing" your setup to get best results from Low power analogs on 25, 38 and 61, as well as getting some sort of signal from WCVN might be of benefit. What seems odd about it though, is WKRC-DT puts out the strongest signal of all the area digital stations, So I suppose its even possible you're getting too much signal from them which is overloading your tuner, although I highly doubt it ...Just in case though, putting a 10db or so attenuator just before your receiver would give you an idea if that's the problem. Another thing too, I suppose you might want to check your feedline/connections/etc. to make sure all is well.

Without doing a "field test" and some experimenting though, I really don't have a clue and am just guessing here, so I'm probably really not helping too much .... Experimentation and observation really is key for this sort of stuff, but once you've got a setup which is balanced well with the "RF enviornment in your area, you should be pretty much permantly set.

Anyhow, I'd most definitely guess terrain is an issue for you with WCVN-DT. Their antenna height is some 475-600 Feet lower than the other Cincy digitals, which makes the terrain issue you have in that direction even more of an issue. Attached is your terrain profile to WCVN tower. As you can see, it doesn't look too good ...

Jeff,

Well at least for the time being, I'm getting a consistent signal from WKRC-DT that doesn't breakup.

It was a little windy on the roof today, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

The antenna was still aimed at 180 degrees, so it hadn't shifted. When I rotated it over to 155 degrees, I got a consistent and acceptable signal. The other local stations that I was getting are still OK at that bearing. I used a GPS with the WKRC coordinates as a waypoint to get the heading. That heading also agreed with the compass.

I still don't know why the problem only recently appeared. I think that a local obstruction that is in the true 180 line of sight may have been a factor though. I'm in a ranch and there's a 2-story about a block away that is in the line of sight. By shifting over to 155, I miss the house and apparently there's still enough signal.

Thanks for your help.
AJ

Count me among those who would rather have 720p with a subchannel (maybe two...or maybe the current webhopper), and would rather have 480p if there's even more multicasting/datacasting.

Macroblocks pull me right out of the experience. I can live with the better-than-DVD quality of 480p done right. Of course I'd rather see no subchannels during HD broadcasts, but I don't expect that. I suspect that within a few years full-bitrate terrestrial HD will be practically non-existent.

WHO1ZEP
Do you (Or anyone else for that matter) know if insight will be enabling the firewire ports on their new HD PVR?

This would convince me to get thir service immediatly if they did.

Thanks
Dave

Noticed that filings from stations to FCC for "ANNUAL DTV ANCILLARY/SUPPLEMENTARY SERVICES REPORT FOR DIGITAL TELEVISION STATIONS" have recently started popping up on FCC CDBS site ....

If nothing else, at least this will tell us what stations are doing besides free-to air broadcasting, and how much bandwidth they are using for these "extra" services. Well, sort of, remember, some of this stuff can use "oppurtunistic" data - even 1080i HD doesn't need 100% of the available bandwidth 100% of the time. I find the "Gross Revenue" info interesting as well.

So far, of the all Dayton/Cincy stations with FCC 317 forms showing up in CDBS presently, Only WKRC-DT and WCVN-DT reported offering some sort of ancillary/supplementary service via their DTV station.

WKRC-DT filing(info on webhopper) here (I take it "4" means 4 Mb/s) :

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=100707853&formid=317&fac_num=11289

WCVN-DT datacasting info (I'm assuming 200, 800 etc. is Kb/s, and I assume its oppurtunistic bandwidth) here:

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=100706859&formid=317&fac_num=34204

Jeff..
Good info. Link was dead when I tried, but I'll try later.

Thanks
Doc

Its working at 2:20pm -- Some of the FCC stuff does seem to go down every now and then. Also, I had thought those required acrobat reader, but its working without acroread.exe running ...

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
WCVN-DT datacasting info (I'm assuming 200, 800 etc. is Kb/s, and I assume its oppurtunistic bandwidth) here:

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=100706859&formid=317&fac_num=34204

Correct

Got a new problem with WXIX-DT: No sound. Sheesh. Obviously, there's no FCC rule that says the 50% simulcast rule also applies to AUDIO.

Doc

I'm really looking forward to the time when we can look back on some of this stuff and laugh ... I hope anyway ...

Anyhow, I can report that audio from WXIX-DT was fine last night between 9-10pm.

Here's SOME of my list of "quality" problems from local stations - These are the biggest problems I've seen, and unfortunetly, the first 3 have been pretty "permanent" :

WSTR-DT - Audio was missing during much of the last BB game, it was fine on the analog. Those "rolling bars" are really getting bad at times. They are present in the analog too, but are generally more noticable on the DT. If it weren't for Andy Griffith and KY BB, I could take them out of my surf list. WBDT-DT(WB Dayton) Really has Excellent SD PQ(the best in the area IMO - The analog looks great, but the DT looks even better), and I watch them for WB programming and for their "Daily Buzz" Show. Am looking forward to seeing them do WB HD, which they have said they will be doing at some point.

WRGT-DT - I haven't actually checked this in a while, but I assume the "crease" to left of Fox Bug that goes all the way across the screen is still there ... I also occasionally see herringbone on the analog AND digital, especially during "good day Live"

WPTD-DT - Audio is coming out of Right Channel only on 16.4 (Think14), and its been like that for quite a while.

WKRC-DT had both the CBS Sunday, and Tuesday Movies in HD -- When I checked it, WHIO-DT was missing HD for the Sunday Movie.

WKEF-DT - No NBC HD for the L&O last night, it was fine from WLWT-DT.

This is a OT since its about an analog, but I keep getting variable amounts of intermittant "extra noise" in WBQC 25 signal lately. Comes and goes every few minutes like someone is flipping a switch. It's driving me nuts, especially as I thought it was a problem on my end at first.

Jeff.
I'll have to check WBQC's picture on DirecTV while I still have the locals package (for God knows what reason). I've seen them on cable, OTA and OTA from my studio (4 blocks from the CPO tower). It's plain that their transmitter or something in the air chain adds a good deal of garbage, but - assuming DirecTV's feed is from a studio fiber link, which I'm pretty sure it is - there's still a lot of trash at their head-end. But just that difference has me considering keeping the D* locals package when the freebie ends. But I doubt I will.

Doc

Doc,

How is the general picture quality (compression, etc) of the Cincinnati SD locals via DirecTV these days?

Michael..
Considerably better than the locals over cable. Yeah, they're compressed, but they still look pretty darn good on a standard TV. But, when blown up on the 57-inch HDTV, it's pretty much a draw. Picture quality of locals as a group, from best to worst:

OTA digital (except WSTR-DT, which looks the same as OTA analog)
OTA analog using attic array (except WBQC)
DirecTV
Insight Cable
OTA Rabbit ears

I'm not laying all of the blame for the bad PQ of the locals on Insight. I do have the thing split seven ways to Sunday, but even when fed from the street to only one TV, WKRC and, to a greater extent, WXIX look bad compared to nearly any other well-known basic cable channel (CNN, Court TV, etc). Insight does the best they can with WBQC. And the quality varies just as Jeff has reported.

What's weird about WBQC is the video "ringing" that shows up to the right of hard edges even on DirecTV.

Doc

WHO1ZEP
Do you (Or anyone else for that matter) know if insight will be enabling the firewire ports on their new HD PVR?hugenbdd,
Insight had to 'roll back' the 'roll out' date of the new box. The same guy is supposed to call me when it arrives, and I will update you then.

From WXIX:

"WXIX-DT is down due to a failure at the transmitter. Parts have been ordered and I expect to have them installed sometime Saturday morning. Barring any other problems it should be back up by Noon Saturday."

And while we're at it, this week's HD One movie on WKRC-DT should be "Scrooged." Now, whether it's on tonight or tomorrow night is anybody's guess.

Doc

Doc,

Thanks for info on WXIX-DT. I've lost track of how many times they've had XMTR trouble. I've been quite busy, but I had noticed they haven't been up since Wed night. I did get a few Blips from them on Thursday every now and then.

No HD-one movie last night, so maybe its tonight. I suppose it could be next week too, though, as I haven't noticed a listing for SD airing at the usual time ..

Now that I think about it, I'm wondering about the movie. The SEC game is on, tonight and it's supposed to be in HD.

Well, I'll be getting too late for the start of either one.

Tomorrow's late NFL game on WKRC is also scheduled to be the HDTV game.

Doc

Originally posted by DrDon
Well, I'll be getting too late for the start of either one.

The biggest reason why we need HD DVRs -- Time Warner in Wisconsin has deployed the SA 8000HD, so it may not be too long before those of us who rely on TWC-Cincy can do the HD-DVR thing. I'm almost giddy with anticipation.

Agreed. I've already put back the $$ for the DirecTV HD TiVo unit. Had been saving for the LG HD DVR, but the short HD record time was making me wait for something better. Unfortunately, I've gotta wait until march. Until then, the anamorphic S-VHS trick will have to do <g>

Doc

Originally posted by William Smith
Okay, I'll give you a choice... 720p or 480p Widescreen for KET4 or drop the HD all together...

You might not believe it but I worked for weeks to get the HD feed looking as good as it does and its a pain for Mike C. and I to remember to program the system to switch to HD mode and back...

Right now the system has to support KET1 and KET2 24/7, KET3 20hrs/day, and KET4 SD for 20 hrs/day... minimal. When the PBS HD service starts in December something might change a little.

Yipes - I'd have to echo Jeff's comments for the 480p. My wife once asked me why the same program is on KET2 and KET4. I answered that it must be a situation where some receiver needs 4:3 SD to send over cable or something. But her question did make me itch for that extra bandwidth, which to the HD viewer seems redundant & wasteful. Regardless, know that your efforts are appreciated. I had been meaning to pledge to PBS for years now. Your email reminded me.

Thank you for your online pledge to KET. Following is a summary of your contribution...Your contribution helps us keep bringing you the quality programs and services you expect. Thank you from all of us at KET!

No, thank you. I watch PBS more than all the other channels combined. Heck after CSI and an HD football game or two, PBS is it.

Originally posted by who1zep
IYou guys who hunt and peck for the maybe-once-a-month over-the-air movie upconvert should consider HDNet Movies, 24-hours a day of the stuff. The movies are shown several times, like a premium channel.


Ok, I'm not cutting down HDNet Movies --- However, First off, Paramount's HDone movies which are usually shown once a month on WKRC-DT are NOT upconverts. They are True HD. ABC, CBS, NBC have all aired Movies in HD(Not upconverts), on average, probably 1 or 2 movies a week, some being made for TV movies - Mainly from CBS on Sunday Night. HD Movies from ABC/Disney have been lacking lately Mostly because of football playoffs. Anyhow, Last week, for example, was "Miss Congeniality", in HD from CBS as well as Last Sunday's CBS Christmas Movie in HD -- Muppet movie was HD last night on NBC. PBS's Mystery has had "Skinwalkers" and recently the 2nd Skinwalkers installment in HD. The Dayton PBS station airs PBS HD EVERY night, with several airings of each program.

There have also been some excellent movie titles which have aired in HD OTA as well, most with absolutely excellent HD PQ, and quite a few of them uncut. A few examples from ABC are the Indy Jones movies, The Green Mile, Forrest Gump. Of the HD-one movies, the best 2 titles I've seen so far were "The Odd Couple" and "Witness".

Personally, If I want to watch uncut movies in OAR w/o commercials, I'll watch them on DVD, and at some point in the future, on HD-DVD.

Originally posted by who1zep
777 - HD Net also has all HD material. They will show a variety of shows, some educational, some HD loops to fill time, some original programming, occasional HD sports. Some is upconverted (Hogan's Heroes), but it is very little--I hardly ever see any non-native HD. Top HD quality.

HD Net Movies are upconverted. Certiainly none were filmed in HD.


Although there are a few exceptions, Movies(and many TV shows such as "ER") in general are not shot in HD Video, they are shot on Film(usually 35mm) and can be TRANSFERRED to HD. A film which has been transferred to HD is not an upconversion, it's still HD. 35mm film has HIGHER resolution than HD Video, but you don't get film grain in HD Video. The quality of the Transfer of film to HD, as well as the Film stock used/etc, or the creative "contol"(I.e. how the film or specific scene was shot) can all have an effect on the resulting HD PQ, just as everything but the transfer to HD effects the PQ seen in the theatres. The term "upconversion" applies only when source material of lower resolution is upconverted to a higher resolution.

Of course, programming/movies can be upconverted too, I don't know what HDNet movies does, but I do know that I had read "Hogan's Heroes" on HDNet was "supposed to be" HD.(Film transferred to HD).

Originally posted by psm0110
My wife once asked me why the same program is on KET2 and KET4. I answered that it must be a situation where some receiver needs 4:3 SD to send over cable or something.

William can address this better, but in case he is busy : From what I understand, I believe one reason, maybe the main reason that the "simulcast" is necessary is : since KET feeds ALL of their analog+digital transmitters with the necessary programming services via an ATSC stream over their statewide STL network, KET2 has to be there in SD at all times to feed their analog KET2 Transmitter(WKMJ 68 Lousiville). The other 15 Statewide analog transmitters(Including WKPC 15 Lousiville) run KET1. I'm not sure, but I think they have a couple of LP translators(W56AM Falmouth being one of them) that run KET1 as well.

I've thought about it, and I imagine(just assuming here and guessing), the problem with dropping the SD simulcast on KET2 of KET4 HD programming where the KET2 analog transmitter is concerned would be a technical one, as the feed would have to be switched to KET4 at the KET2 analog transmitter during those times, and the programming would have to be downconverted for transmission via WKMJ/KET2 analog transmitter. I assume the same would be true at any cable/dbs head end that uses KET2 digital SD. I know, to us it sounds simple but I'm guessing in practice it wouldn't be as simple, or practical as it might sound.

I've also thought another way to go about it would possibly be to switch ATSC formats on KET2 Instead of doing it on KET4 between HD/Annenburg SD, and just run the HD programming on KET2(while dropping KET4 - CPB/Annenburg), but then HD on KET2 would still need to be "downcoverted" to SD at KET2 before braodcast by WKMJ 68, and downconverted as well by any cableco/DBS headend that is using the "ATSC KET2" feed for "SD output". Again, seems simple enough to us, as even my "consumer grade" DTV receiver/Decoder can be set for 480i SD output, no matter what ATSC format is being received, and in this case, it would all be on KET2, no switching to KET4 necessary. I don't know what the implications would be where juggling the available bandwidth around would be, but as long as they would drop KET4/Annenburg in this case when KET2 Switched to HD, it seems like it could "maybe" work. Of course, also though, if they decided to expand their HD service a bit beyond what is currently simulcast in SD on KET2, they wouldn't be able to do it this way.

Sorry for the triple posts :

FYI, WXIX-DT is back up at 12:35pm.

Speaking of stations going off air, WPTD-DT was down last night starting sometime after 9pm, but they're back up as normal today ...

Noticed that WHIO/DT had the KC vs. Denver game in HD last night, WKRC/DT had Miami vs. New England SD ... Does Cincy cable carry the Dayton Digital stations yet ;-)

Both CBS stations had the CBS HD last night despite the game delays ..

Jeff..
WKRC-DT DID have the KC HD game... for a while. Someone caught the error around the end of the first quarter and switched it over. Good thing, since it took me that long to track down what was causing me to lose ONLY Transponder 1 on DirecTV's 101 bird (the one where the CBS HD ST game is located). The usual suspect: loose connection.

I've noticed that on CBS "doubleheader" days, they drag a lot of markets into "bonus coverage" of other games and get them all synched up. In the old days (when I used to watch this stuff off of C-band feeds) they'd have a dozen different primetime feeds going - one for each NFL market that ran past 7PM. By grouping them together, it lessens the number of Primetime feeds and allows the HD feed to reach the largest chunk of the country. I've also noticed that markets falling under the weird NFL "home game" rule are brought into a late game at 7PM, anyway, just to sync up another market. I'm sure that'll end when they have more than one transponder for net-to-affiliate HD <g>.

Doc

The answer you gave for why KET2 and 4 simulcast is right on.. The problem is getting a proper decoder at the WKMJ transmitter site. All of the "professional" units have a fit when the stream changes from SD to HD and Back. ( They look real ugly) plus there is an issue with closed captions as HD captions are not backward compatible with NTSC captions....

I'm looking for a better decoder but haven't been able to find one yet..

William,

Also on another matter Concerning EIA-708 digital captions which I have an issue with on one of my recievers : RCA DTC-100 here does the EIA-608 "analog" captions from all the area Digital stations just fine, but the Zenith Box (HDV420) I have only does EIA-708 captions, and my understanding is, it only works if some sort of pointer or something via PSIP maps CC data the way the receiver wants to see it.

The only station I've seen EIA-708 captioning work with on the HDV420 is WLWT-DT. Now, it does give me the option to turn on or off "English1"/etc. CC on WCVN-DT, WCET-DT and sometimes WPTD-DT but no captions are actually displayed from any of those stations if I turn it on. For all the other stations I've seen(except WLWT-DT), when I press the "CC" button, it just says "This feature is not available".

There was a thread in the Hardware area over the summer concerning HDV420+captioning, but I can't find it now. There is some interesting info on these sorts of digital caption problems. in the following thread :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2841991#post2841991

I'm awaiting an encoder software upgrade to add 708 caption support to the encoders. ( it was due Nov 17th).

Of course, programming/movies can be upconverted too, I don't know what HDNet movies does, but I do know that I had read "Hogan's Heroes" on HDNet was "supposed to be" HD.(Film transferred to HD).

It's definitely transferred from film.

It is also definitely not OAR.

Good News!

At 12pm, WLWT-DT Radar (5-2) Has disappeared :-)

Enjoy it while it lasts!!

I've been away from the Forum for awhile and now I'm having trouble getting the search to work, so forgive me if this question is a repeat: Has WXIX's 29-2 stopped being broadcast? Is it intermittent? It used to come in as 19-2 and it seems to have dropped from my Hughes e-86 guide for good. I can't get it back by manually tuning to 29-2 or 19-2.

Itzme

They dropped it some months ago. We've got our fingers crossed that it stays that way. As little effort as they like to put into it, I'm sure hooking up and maintaining a second channel will be more than they'll want to bother with unless there's a substantial amount of money involved.

Aside from that, they had transmitter troubles last week, they're still only on the air 12 hours a day with it and you still gotta call 'em to fix the weirdscreen or the sound periodically. All that aside, when they get it right, it still looks pretty darn good as Fox affiliates go.

Doc

Thanks Dr Don, I thought so. But I has also thought I saw 29-2 come back from time to time over the past few months. Perhaps they were just testing. I'll just stop looking for it.

You might ask Jeff, but I think when they have their PSIP remap function turned off, the station comes up as 29-2. At that time, there is no 29-1. With the remapping on, it's 19-1. Still the main channel and still full 19mb/s

Doc

I haven't seen the old SD sub - 29-3(19-2) in a long time -- It was last winter or Early spring when they last had programming and the receiver showed a "lock" on it, if I recall correctly. It "hung there" as a place holder after that on one of my reciever's for a long time after that, but without actually being used(no programming), but it was finally, thankfully gone completely sometime over the summer.

The DTC-100 here has allways seen the single 1080i service(well, unconverted from 480i/p) as 29-2 (with the channel remapping turned off on the receiver) - No 29-1 -- It saw the Old 2nd, SD sub as 29-3, hopefully it will never see it again ... It sees 19.1 remapped for the main channel --- I can't really tell what the non-remapped version is on the zenith box, as it just shows 19.1, even if I just tune "manually" to 19 (Its a ATSC only receiver), or 29.

Found the HD-one Movie for the month ... "Scrooged" w/Bill Murray currently showing in HD on WKRC-DT ...

Per the announcement under the HDTV Programming section:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=339309


I added the following comments in that section but thought I'd post here as well for our greater Cincinnati area folks -

=========================================

Speaking to a TW - Cincinnati rep right now. States these new channels - HD Net and HD Net Movies - will be online Dec 30th. Beautiful! (Cinci TW already offers the InHD and InHD2 movies)

ESPN-HD is a national carriage issue as TW is yet to pony up the $$ to ESPN to carry this HD signal. All I can say to that, is bummer as an HD Sunday night football game would wrap up my weekend rather nicely - Hopefully next year. I did ask about the status of this ESPN HD issue, and in conjuction with the HD Net announcement, TW stated it is still working with ESPN and hopes to be able to offer this channel in the near future. In other words, don't hold your breath.

The TW rep also stated that on Dec 30th, they will also start carrying 2 InDemand PPV channels that will be offering HD content. Beautiful!!

-hp

WSTR-DT probably needs to reboot something. they are in "Blank Screen" mode, at least since 7pm this evening. Plenty of signal here as usual, but neither receiver here will lock.

Noticed it, too. Figured it'd be back by now. Anybody call 'em?

Doc

They just fixed it(sort of) as I was getting ready to send them and sinclair a note -- PSIP lock at 12:24pm, Video at 12:25pm -- No audio still though .. I was of course also hoping for a miracle that it would be something other than 480i ....

update: hmmm, might be just me, (especially as I'm looking at the DT on a 17" PC monitor at 480p), but the Video looks better than usual ... I'm not seeing the familiar rolling bars on the analog or the DT presently ...

-------------------

Update #2: On other matters :

#1) Noticed that WPTD-DT fixed the Audio(it's no longer single channel audio!) on ThinkDTV14 about a week or so ago(Thanks Charles+ThinkTV folks!).

#2) Noticed that WCET-DT now has HD scheduled every night now through the rest of December --- Lets hope they keep in up in the future ... I did notice they missed some HD as scheduled last week, but all seems well(except for the compression artifacts of course) the past couple of nights .. There was even a "PBS HD" Channel promo last night I caught for the first time that was pretty cool ... Here's the rest of this months' WCET-DT HD/PBS Widescreen Schedule:

http://www.cetconnect.org/television/print_month.asp?channel=2&date=thismonth

Jeff..
It's not just you. The video DOES appear sharper. Sound is back as of 5:40pm, although I don't know when it came back. Wasn't on during "Scooby Doo." I'm sharing too much, again, aren't I?

Doc

LOL! Audio fixed at 4:30pm -- I definitely noticed it as I didn't realize how high I had the audio amp turned up ... Lost video for a few minutes before that, then it came back with video ..

And Yeah, Just checked it on all 3 monitors(on integrated HDTV upconverted to 540p, PC monitor at 480p out from STB, and POTV at 480i), and the SD video from WSTR-DT looks absolutely excellent(for SD), much better than the composite video from the analog(which looks fine too, now). Hope it stays that way!

Jeff..
I swear they were driving that thing using little more than the composite-output of a broadcast quality NTSC receiver. In other words, feeding a transmitter with an off-air analog monitor. The black level was the giveaway. It now looks like it's patched into the NTSC out from the master switching console.

Doc

Now that I have WB feed from WSTR-DT/WBDT-DT for comparison --- WBDT-DT's SD still seems to look better --- Part of it(probably most of it) is differing black levels, which is something that has allways driven me nuts. Haven't seen it be a problem with HD, but has allways been the case that it seems a bit different from quite a few stations in the area ..

I see WCET-DT must be having some PSIP problems .. I must have jinxed it, earlier ... No 48-1 or HD showing up, No A/V or PSIP "lock" on 48-4+48-5, but they are there as "placeholders"(which hasn't been the case lately when they are in "HD mode"). Weather bugs in cincy(but not Dayton so far) an "HD issue" tonight too it looks like ...

Hi gang,

Bought a Hughes HTL-HD this weekend so I could move the E86 upstairs and turn of the Samsung T150 and an older Hughes D* box. No 19-1 on either box since yesterday at 5:30 when I got it all hooked up. Are they having transmitter problems again, or is it just me?

thanks,
Dave

Dave..
WSTR-DT is up. But I think you're referring to WXIX-DT. 19-1 is "broke." As of noon, yesterday, someone was "looking at it." I reached someone who actually watches the thing, for a change. She said, "I've never seen anything that breaks so much in all of my life. And it's new. You'd think there'd be a warranty or something."

In any event, it's once again down with no rta in sight.

Doc

Thanks DrDon,

I was indeed asking about Fox 19-1 WXIX - Still no joy in Amelia with WSTR-DT, but I keep trying; must have those call letters on the brain.

Glad it's the channel 19 folks and not me :-)

Dave

I'm from Hazlet, NJ and for the first time I'm getting WLIW-DT PBS HD on channel 21-1 and the picture quality is jaw dropping at 16:9 1080i! Is anybody else getting this channel? I'm using the Zenith Silver Sensor hooked up to the LG 3100A.

Tony

Tony..
Jeff might if the weather's right, but you're in the Cincinnati thread. Ohio. Piece of a haul from Jersey. But thanks for asking. We did see some of the WLIW-originated programming when the PBS-HD demo loop was running, locally. It is jaw dropping. But our PBS stations all run subchannels, now, so it's not quite as jaw-dropping as it was.

Doc

Well, WXIX-DT came back on for all of three seconds around 12:45pm, today (12/24), then went right back off. Not sure if that means they're working on it, but one would hope so.

Odd. Happened again at 1:45 for about 5 seconds. Guess I'll tune in again at 2:45 and see what happens.

Doc

I've recently happened across WSTR's news program. That that bad really. None of the personality of Fox19, but then again, since I can't tune in WXIX-DT, I'm pretty glad there's a 10PM alternative. Main reason for noting this is - WOW I've never seen better looking SD than on WSTR!

Still, it'd be quite nice if they had WB-HD programming.

Have you written them?

Their promotions person was amazed to know anyone had a set. According to him, I was the first person he'd met who owned one. He said his station's research estimated the number of sets in Cincinnati to be "in the single digits."

Until they hear otherwise, they'll continue to assume that. In other words: no HD.

Write early, write often. <g>

Doc

WXIX-DT is on the air at 1pm ....

What's the emoticon for "fainting dead away?"

Doc

Greetings, all. I've been lurking on this thread for a couple of months now as I've been anxiously awaiting my HD front projector to arrive. It arrived yesterday, and all I can say is WOW! I'm a TW customer and I'm just in time for the two new channels effective today.

Anyway, just wanted to let you all know that there's another HD junkie in the area.

Terry

Hi Terry !

We're almost neighbors - I live just south of Pisgah. Congrats on your FP. Glad you're enjoying HD.

I'm also a TWC HD customer. Did you sign up for the new HD Tier to get HDNet & HDNet Movies ? If so can you tell me what the monthly cost is ? TIA and welcome.

Rick

Terry..
Welcome. I guess I don't need to tell you what you'll find here if you've been lurking. But, if there's any information or help you need, let us know.

Doc

Thanks for the welcomes.

Rick, TW is charging $6.95 per month for the HD tier. Includes 4 stations:
- INHD (971)
- INHD2 (972)
- HD Net (973)
- HD Net Movies (974)

I'm surprised they didn't make DiscHD be part of this tier...

Terry

Terry,

Thanks for the info. I lost the INHD channels today with the new HD tier. I'm debating on subscribing. Although I really would like to see HDNet, with all of the repetition on INHD (and I've read the same about HDNet) I'm not sure it's worth 7 bucks on top of a $68 cable bill. Maybe I'll drop HBO and the channel guide and keep it under 70 bucks.

BTW TWC's policy has been to not charge extra for "duplicate content" channels. I think that's why DiscoveryHD wasn't moved into the HD Tier (even though the content isn't really the same as Discovery). I believe this is the stalemate between TWC & Disney over ESPN-HD.

Enjoy AVS and all of the great info and people here in the Cincy HD thread.

Rick

Just wanted to drop in and say hi as well. Been lurking this site for about a month now and have read a lot of informational post. TW customer as well so thanks on the update on the price of the new HD Tier. Once my wife watches the last 8 episodes of Sex In The City on HBO I'll probably drop and get this new HD Tier.

Reading that most of you are using TWC to receive Cincinnati and national HD. How good is the quality? How does it compare to D*? Also, have they started to carry WXIX yet?

Can't speak for TW, but D*'s PQ has improved markedly, in the past couple of weeks. And, no, I don't think TW nor Insight will carry WXIX-DT until they clear FOX-HD, next fall.

Not that it matters, because they're off the air more than on, these days. <sigh>.

Doc
DirecTV for HD
OTA for Cincy/Dayton local HD
Insight for everything else
Viacom for a paycheck <g>.

Well, while WXIX-HD(funny how its label says HD even though it isn't) isn't reliable as it should be, I am happy with Cincinnati HD offerings, my Eastern Iowa CBS station still hasn't gone HD and I moved over the summer, so as usual every DMA has a couple of stations that suck and won't spend the money. I hope WXIX will carry the FOX HD this coming Fall, and have most of the bugs worked out(Weirdscreen for example).