Sony GWIII Owners thread [Text View] - Page 16

jjb220

12-28-09, 08:22 AM

Hello weebling1,

I maintain the web site you linked in your post. I assume the lens in question came from the "middle-left" portion of the optical block as pictured below (from a photo originally posted by "tdma" a few posts up):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=160419&d=1260456573

When you say it is the "third lens," could you provide a list of the lenses that occur prior to the first mirror in the upper-left? Doesn't the first lens look very similar to the one you posted about (a "series of parallelograms")?

You don't explicitly state it, but can I assume that you just ended up removing the lens, because it appeared it scorched, and you were unable to clean it without breaking it?

My concern would be that it is a filter that removes IR and/or UV light. Unfiltered IR and UV light are known to accelerate degradation of the more sensitive filters and LCD panels downstream. So, while things may look brighter in the short-term, you might be damaging other parts.

Alternatively, it may be an "integrator" (creates the rectangular area of light necessary for the TV, a "relay lens," a "collimator lens" (makes all of the light waves parallel to each other so that the LCD panel will scatter them properly), or something else. If anybody knows, please speak up. Here is a schematic from a Sony patent that I posted previously:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=152799&stc=1&d=1253158477

Steve I think this diagram is for the A10/ A2000 models.
You are on the right path with this. (pun intended). This light path is now very intense and will damage the mirrors, magnifiers and LCD panels in a very short period of time. It may even shatter the first reflector because the light will convert to heat when changed thats why that part gets cooked. I suggest putting the optical block back together with the proper parts before it gets damaged beyond a reasonable repair. A new one will cost over $500.00

Steve, not sure if you received my email. I will rebuild your optical block whenever you are ready. Let me know.<<<Shameless plug. :)

TxSooner

12-28-09, 06:28 PM

http://www.agoraquest.com/editor/upload/2k75532460a9.jpg

here is my version of the blob problem. unless this can be fixed for cheap, i'm just going to dump it and get something new

jjb220

12-28-09, 11:49 PM

http://www.agoraquest.com/editor/upload/2k75532460a9.jpg

here is my version of the blob problem. unless this can be fixed for cheap, i'm just going to dump it and get something newWhat do you consiider cheap? can you remove the optical block yourself? Looks like someone took it apart and damaged the ribbon cable or the connection is bad. if you dump it, sell me the parts.

TxSooner

12-29-09, 12:25 PM

What do you consiider cheap? can you remove the optical block yourself? Looks like someone took it apart and damaged the ribbon cable or the connection is bad. if you dump it, sell me the parts.

Considering the bulb will need to be replaced in the next few months, cheap would be <$300. I just don't want to throw money at a defective product.

Nobody has touched the optical block. The last time the bulb was replaced was about 2 years ago. Could fan vibrations shake something loose?

This just popped up one day to this extent, though I noticed a small blob of blue discoloration, an a small horizontal blue line that faded away every now and then..

If its not much more difficult than opening up a computer and swapping out a hard drive, or motherboard, I should be able to remove the optical block, and verify connections. I just don't want to spend much at all getting a rebuild that is guaranteed to fail.

gheddleson

12-29-09, 04:02 PM

Hi, I was wondering if anyone can help me with my Sony KDF-E60A20 TV.
I'm experiencing the blue dots everywhere and now also experiencing the yellow tint over 1/4 of my screen on the lower left hand side as you view the T.V..

I CALLED SONY from the number I saw someone post on this website and they troubleshot it a little bit and agreed it was the optical block.

They said they could do nothing for me since the TV was out of warranty ( I purchaesd it Sept of 2005). They gave me the option of buying a new Sony product at a greatly reduced price (52" TV for $1050) (I can buy other flat screens cheaper than this brand new and guess what.. IT"S NOT A SONY THANK GOD).

What is my next step ? Is there anything else I can do? Money is very tight these days to say the least. I will NEVER, EVER BUY another SONY PRODUCT again. I used to be a Sony die hard fan (from car stereos, stereos', TV's, etc) but never again.

is there any chance I can get this warrantied? I saw somewhere that certain models have warranties until Jan 2010. I mentioned this to her and she said "not my model" and I said "it still uses the same optical block technology and why wouldn't mine be covered?" There was long silence and she couodn't answer me.

Before I left she said and this is what floors me..
SONY SAYS" I HAVE TWO WEEKS TO MAKE MY DECISION ON WHAT KIND OF OFFER I WILL ACCEPT FROM THEM". I laughed and hung up.. (like I'm going to be pressured into accepting an offer from them) what a bunch of dorks..

Anyways, sorry to babble on but is there anything that can be done or anything that someone can point me in the right direction before it's waaay to late (which I fear it is)

Gerald

jjb220

12-29-09, 04:57 PM

Considering the bulb will need to be replaced in the next few months, cheap would be <$300. I just don't want to throw money at a defective product.

Nobody has touched the optical block. The last time the bulb was replaced was about 2 years ago. Could fan vibrations shake something loose?

This just popped up one day to this extent, though I noticed a small blob of blue discoloration, an a small horizontal blue line that faded away every now and then..

If its not much more difficult than opening up a computer and swapping out a hard drive, or motherboard, I should be able to remove the optical block, and verify connections. I just don't want to spend much at all getting a rebuild that is guaranteed to fail.I can rebuild it for you if your interested. My email is cabledude0461@yahoo.com .Like you said, It will fail again because of design. I have had no problems with the rebuilds and I believe the parts I use may be better than the originals. My first rebuild in a KDF-60XBR950 is over 4,000 hous at this point and still perfect.

jjb220

12-29-09, 05:06 PM

gheddleson

01-01-10, 10:40 AM

I hear of people starting another suit to get SONY to cover these sets again but I doubt it will happen. I am offering repairs on optical blocks and the model you have is one that I rebuild. If you are interested, contact me. If you are able to remove and reinstall your part to be rebuilt, you can save a ton of money. if you are local to Middletown, CT, I could do the work for you. Hope this helps, John

John,

How do I get in contact with you ? If you would like to email me you can get me at sales [at] mantamachinery [dot] com . I think I'm able to remove it and put it back in... Could u please email me on how we can get this started ? Everyday the set gets worse and worse..

dcfox

01-01-10, 03:48 PM

I had one of these years ago, they are cheaper to replace then to fix unless you do it yourself.

jjb220

01-08-10, 09:13 AM

I had one of these years ago, they are cheaper to replace then to fix unless you do it yourself.If you decide you can do the work yourself the job is easy once you find a reasonable price on getting the optical block repaired. I can repair for about $200. shipping extra <<<<<< Another shamelss plug.

weebling1

01-09-10, 03:52 PM

Sorry for the delay jjb220 and splinke.

I think the patent diagram is slightly off I view it as follows:

UV-IR filter
Integrator lens (square with multiple facets, like a compound lens/insect eye)
approx. 2" air gap, as shown in your actual picture
another Integrator lens
Aluminum, shiney, vertical slot 'mask'
*Collimator*? lens ( allows the un-masked areas to pass and creates vertical parallel light?)

The collimator lens broke in 2 places on joints when I tried to remove it "gently". It has a thick coating on the back? side of the un-masked regions. This coating is what burned.

https://publish.comcast.net/dpath/9u2z0k-WZJx9LWvOam0auE2VOcbQ_-7FakGxpdjYc9oNP_v_YmvnJdL-LHbto06wRpViVHuA4w6MXIIXECkhTB8oMxIjMy7pxS3iXMRcTRI/

Sorry but I'm not really interested in repairing this unit, I've had it since November 2003 and am EAGER to invest in newer technology (i.e. LED/LCD HDTV)

jjb220

01-10-10, 07:55 PM

Mockingbird

01-14-10, 09:12 PM

jjb220

01-20-10, 07:57 AM

I just noticed a green smudge on the screen of my 42we610 (oct. 03 build - had it since nov. 03). From what I've read on this thread and others is that it's an OB issue and is not going to get better.
Does anyone know the time frame for the progression of deterioration?your model is 6-8,000 hours min 15,000 hours max I rebuild the optical blocks for this model and see these hours on them but it is a variable due to environment. Even in a clean house the fans can pack with dust and cause early failure. A green smudge is not an optical block failure but more possibly dust build up on the internal lenses. This can be serviced to get many more hours of use.

mike1650

01-20-10, 03:13 PM

splinke

01-20-10, 04:53 PM

Sony agreed to pay $225 toward repair which is a joke considering estimated $900-1000 repair for the part and labor. They also offered this as discount for new TV on Sonystyle. This on on the original year 2004 KF-42WE610. I was thinking of the 46" W5100 for $1004 after discount but it irks me about the whole Sony thing and don't want to reward them for this. What do you think?

Just to clarify, the KF-42WE610 is actually a 2003 model, even if yours was manufactured in 2004, although that is not of much consequence. I have seen the KDL-46W5100 on sale at reputable online dealers for $1,195 (maybe less) with free shipping and no sales taxes. Add sales taxes and potential shipping costs to Sony's $1,004 offer, and you probably won't save much, if any, money. And regardless of how you look at it, the $225 offer is virtually nothing.

Mockingbird

01-20-10, 07:49 PM

Thanks for the guidance jjb220. If it's just some dust, I'll try to live with it. I don't know how many hours are on the TV, but I use it everyday for 7 years. It's only a mild distraction when the movie credits are rolling. I probably have at least 10k on it. I'll try to use it till it requires service and then I'll junk it. It still has a nice picture (the smudge isn't noticable when watching programing).

gmini402

02-01-10, 05:52 PM

**to jjb220** I know this is not the VPL-HS10 front projector forum, but I am having trouble with the dreaded "scribble" problem. The scribble is located on my green LCD. The LCDs are part of the Prism Block Assembly. The setup is almost the same, except for the lens orientation. Would you be able to correct this? Besides the convergence issue, it seems that it would be easy to replace the LCD because there are only 4 screws holding it on. The link about Sony Optical Block and Related Problems, is great.

jjb220

02-02-10, 02:17 PM

kalnitz

02-04-10, 09:31 AM

Hello all:

I just wanted to write to thank all of your for the tips I got from this site, which proved no end of help in dealing with Sony. Here is my quick story.

Bought a 42WE610 in March of 2004 and it worked reasonably well until December of 2009, when the blue blob began to become visible and grow on the screen. I checked the internet for reports of this problem ans soon found this and other sites discussing it and finally found Sony’s own website acknowledging the issue as well. Thankfully, when I opened up the front of the TV, I also had the warped lamp door problem because as most of you know my set is already out of Sony’s “super-secret” extended warranty for just the optical block issue, but the warped door issue was still under warranty.

Anyway, long story short, after the service tech said it could not be fixed and 6 weeks of back and forth with Sony, and with the help of the tips I gained from this and other sites, I rejected all of Sony’s offers until they sent out a refurbished 46V5100. I see that this set may have some issues as well, but I took the offer because I have a big Super Bowl party every year and “B.Y.O.T.V.” did not sound like a lot of fun. The set was delivered yesterday, and so far so good.

One thing, because of Sony’s delay in getting out the refurbished TV, they extended my warranty out to 6 months. You all may want to be aware of that in dealing with Sony in the future.

So, again I want to thank all of you for your help. Sorry for all of you who are having less success dealing with Sony and who are out of the extended warranty period, as I know I would be TICKED if my set started acting up in two months after my extended warranty (one that I did not even know existed) was up.

Now, anyone know what I should do with my “blue” 42WE610??!!

jjb220

02-06-10, 08:33 AM

god_forbids

02-07-10, 09:22 PM

I recently grappled with a friend's KDF-50WE655 and thought I'd throw up a quick report. For a couple years now, watching movies at his house was a pain because the colors were so off. By "off" I don't mean just a little inaccurate, I mean like someone threw the tint setting to 500 - browns were bright orange, grass was nuclear green, skin tones (ha!) made everyone on screen look like red aliens - the whole thing was a terrible mess. On previous occasions I had adjusted user menu settings to no avail, so we set up an appointment last week to probe a little deeper into the service menu.

Armed with the "UMR does GWIII" PDF, an AVSHD BluRay and printouts of many individual settings from this thread, I came to the following settings:

RDRV 140 -> 60 :eek:
GBRV 140 -> 129
BDRV 140 -> 143
RCUT 255 -> 230
GCUT 255 -> 242
BCUT 255 -> 255

UPIC Pro -> MAX
UBRT Pro -> MAX

Numerous tweaks to DHPH, DVPH, MDHS, MDVS to 2.5% overscan all around
Others just following UMR (AXIS, USHP, etc.)

Notice the incredible drop in RDRV. This was necessary to restore the balance between red and the other colors, but is this because green and blue got weaker or because red got stronger? LampTM was 7,901 and LampCT was 4465, I also checked for the melting lamp door issue but found no evidence of such. The only excuse my friend ever gave is that his 2yo daughter "did something to the TV settings" to screw it up but without SM access I don't see how :confused: Could a kid hitting this TV make this happen?

Also notice the UPIC and UBRT. Using the black clipping pattern from Ch1 and Ch2 of Basic Settings on AVSHD I found that even with these maxed, bar 17 was not perceptibly flashing. At Pro default UBRT/UPIC the whole screen was just one big crushed black! White clipping settings also showed a very dark screen (with all bars blinking) until UPIC was maxed. Is the lamp just really old and losing its brightness?

Finally, one last note about the red ... using A7 - RGB high clipping - no matter what I did to RDRV and RCUT I could never see any flashing bars in the red area of the screen. Blue and green worked fine but RGB low clipping showed the same too-dark, crushed-black look of the black clipping pattern even at max UBRT and UPIC. Do you think tweaking UGAM (User gamma adjustment), RYB (Red level for color decoder) or RYR (Red hue for color decoder) would have helped here?

I have no tools or knowledge to fix greyscale levels, and I know that improper settings there can throw off colors. However this was less of a "calibration" than a "fix something already royally ****ed", not to mention there was sunlight streaming into the room and other factors that made real display testing and calibration impossible. Just wondering if anyone could help analyze the results I got from my first-ever foray into a GWIII SM :)

Terry Mann

02-08-10, 02:51 PM

Have owned unit since new. Did replace the optical block a few years ago and has worked fine till now.

Takes about 90 seconds for vertical sync to lock in. After warm up all is fine. Is there a tweak to re-adjust the vertical sync? Please advise the specifics, if any. Many thanks for help! Terry

jjb220

02-22-10, 02:21 PM

splinke

02-25-10, 03:24 PM

ATTENTION all owners of models KF-42WE610, KF-50WE610, KF-60WE610, KDF-60XBR950, KDF-70XBR950, KF-42WE620, KF-50WE620, KDF-42WE655, and KDF-50WE655:

This is a reminder that your TV has a known failure related to lamp overheating, causing warping, melting, scorching, cracking, etc. of the lamp door and other adjacent parts in the TV. This can eventually render your TV inoperable, and it could be a safety issue.

Sony USA has an extended warranty alert for the problem:
Limited Extended Warranty for Certain 2003 and 2004 Televisions Exhibiting Warping of the Lamp Access Door (http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/news-item.pl?&news_id=261&mdl=KF60WE610)
And Sony Canada has an offer alert for the problem:
Notice for 2003 and 2004 Model Year Grand WEGA™ Televisions (http://www.sony.ca/view/515.htm)

On March 25, 2010, Sony extended this warranty a second time (for an additional year). It is now set to expire on March 31st, 2011. I recommend that all owners periodically take a look at their lamp doors (go through the procedure you would do to replace the lamp without actually unplugging it). If there is any sign of warping, melting, scorching, cracking, etc. on the lamp door itself or any surrounding parts, you should report it to Sony before the deadline expires. It may already have happened, but you are unaware of it.

If you find evidence of the problem, and you are concerned that there is a potential safety issue, please file an Incident Report with the Consumer Product Safety Commission (https://www.cpsc.gov/cgibin/incident.aspx).

In the US, I recommend insisting that Sony replaces your TV with one of EQUIVALENT SIZE and FEATURES WITHOUT CHARGE. Cite the following information (I am not an attorney, so this is legal information--not legal advice...consult an attorney for the latter):

The federal Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (Title 15 of the United States Code, Sections 2301-2312) (http://www.thelemonlawyers.com/magnuson-moss-warranty.html) states the following.

Section 2304(a)(1): "{S}uch warrantor must as a minimum remedy such consumer product within a reasonable time and without charge, in the case of a defect, malfunction, or failure to conform with such written warranty..."

Section 2301(11): "The term 'replacement' means furnishing a new consumer product which is identical or reasonably equivalent to the warranted consumer product."

Section 2304(d): "Remedy without charge. For purposes of this section and of section 2302(c) of this title, the term 'without charge' means that the warrantor may not assess the consumer for any costs the warrantor or his representatives incur in connection with the required remedy of a warranted consumer product..."

Section 2304(a)(4): "{I}f the product (or a component part thereof) contains a defect or malfunction after a reasonable number of attempts by the warrantor to remedy defects or malfunctions in such product, such warrantor must permit the consumer to elect either a refund for, or replacement without charge of, such product or part (as the case may be)..."

Here are links to Sony's original Limited Warranties:
WE610 and WE655 (http://www.docs.sony.com/release/Warranty_455716803.pdf)
WE620 (http://www.docs.sony.com/release/Warranty_265213101_Canada_EN_FR.pdf)
XBR950 (http://www.docs.sony.com/release/KDF60XBR950warranty.pdf)

Also note that, if your model number is listed, it is covered, even if it was manufactured and/or purchased in a different year than its model year.

See my Sony TV problems web site (link in my signature below) for additional details.

fflemke

03-04-10, 11:32 AM

splinke

03-04-10, 11:57 AM

I actually have the we-610 and the door is warped, in addition it no longer works. The tv works for about 10 seconds, than the picture goes off but sound stays on. The red led blinks 8 times(not the lamp led). Is it possible that the overheating led to this problem. I was about ready to junk the tv but maybe I can get sony to do something. I did replace it already with a z5100. Any info will be appreciated

A warped lamp door can cause the TV to not function. There is a switch that is supposed to detect whether the door is secure, and the warping can affect this switch, causing the TV to think the door is not secure. However, regardless of whether the problem you are seeing is due to the warping or a failed lamp or some other cause, the warping alone is grounds for Sony to provide you with a free replacement TV free of charge. I would recommend that you call Sony customer service, explain your situation, demand a replacement, and file an incident report with the CPSC if you feel the melting may be a safety issue.

fflemke

03-04-10, 12:17 PM

I have called sony and they set up a service call. I notice in the recall that it says other parts may be damaged. It does not state what those parts are. I'm wondering if the overheating has damaged other parts that may have led to the picture turning off. When the tech comes out he/she will see that the door is warped but might just tell me it has nothing to do with the picture problem, and if that's the cause, could i still demand replacement due to warped door if tv's not in working condition? Probably not. I'm glad I looked this up but should have done so before I bought another sony. My intention was to bring this tv to the firehouse and have the guys buck up and repair it, but if I can get a refurb tv i'd prefer that. $3000 is alot of money for a tv to only last 6 years...not to mention 5 lamps at $120 a shot.

fflemke

03-05-10, 06:24 PM

I called sony yesterday and the tech came out this morning(wow!) and said the tv's fried. Now just got wait to hear back from sony on what there first offer is gonna be. Thanks for the info Splinke. Man I can't believe I replaced that tv already though. I'll have to check the sony store for there return policy, maybe i still got some time.

tdma

03-05-10, 08:39 PM

fflemke,

you don't think that the fact you mentioned you work at a firehouse earlier may have any affect on that response time do you?

You know that sony pays peeps to monitor this stuff.

With your knowledge of fire safety, or the impression of, you may be able to persuade the powers that be to replace your tv.

fflemke

03-06-10, 10:47 AM

The tech was gonna be in the area and i think they knew it would only take a minute so they rescheduled my appointment. It was supposed to be for the 11th.

Mockingbird

03-06-10, 04:19 PM

Does anyone know of any other way to enter the service menu? I can't seem to get into it via pressing "display", "5", "Volume +", "Power" consecutively. I want to change the setting of the DVI input as it's a bit dark and overscanned.

billymacSXRD

03-14-10, 12:50 PM

Hi new to this AVS group but have been reading posts for a while, my KDS-60a2020 bulb is about 2 go, have a new bulb just shipped from my MACK warranty, the picture is still good no globs, 4700 hours of use, lots of dust on the back, I am sure when I change the bulb I might see blobs and such, this is a June 2007 production, one the last of the KDS series, I have a MACK TV and Bulb warranty on the TV, purchased in Feb 2008 at BJ's when the were discontinuing them.

My question is, I have till June 2010 to claim the Opitcal Block correct? The TV is working ok now still, but I fear it will fail after the bulb change or after the OB extended warranty expires. I dont want to miss out on having Sony pay the bills. I am actually anticipating it to fail, or should I clean it all out and save its life? I am an electronics tech-head and this would be an easy job to take apart and clean.

billymac

Jeffs386

03-17-10, 12:26 PM

So whats the best deal that anyone's been offered as a replacement?
I have a KDF-42WE655 in a spare bedroom,not being used much anymore
I contacted Sony about the light engine problems and have been offered this

Thank you for contacting the Sony Exchange Dept.,

As discussed, we provided you an offer to replace your television.

KDL55HX701 $1150.00 * + local sales tax
KDL55EX501 $950.00 + local sales tax
KDL46V5100 $480.00 + local sales tax

I see some owners of XBR sets were offered the HX for 550 and the v5100 for free
Sony claims that there are no 42" sets offered
has anyone with a WE series received any better offers?

Decel

03-19-10, 08:03 PM

Man, wish I knew the blue blob/cloud issue was generalized. I'm a sporadic lurker of these forums and my KF-60WE610 exibits the blue cloud, but no warped or discolored lamp cover.

I wonder what my options are...

Any Canadians who have encountered this recently? What did you managed to get out of Sony?

Pat6366

03-25-10, 11:41 AM

Has anyone with a 60" with the optical block issue gotten an offer from Sony for a deal on another 60" or is the largest they are offering the 55"?

Jeffs386

03-25-10, 12:25 PM

I believe that as of yesterday they were only offering a 52" and that was the largest..........my problem is that I own 2 of these and they won't combine them and give me a better offer I spent close to 5K in 2005 and both sets have OB issues

splinke

03-26-10, 02:44 AM

UPDATE
The lamp/melting issue warranty has just been extended by Sony until 3/31/2011.

ATTENTION all owners of models KF-42WE610, KF-50WE610, KF-60WE610, KDF-60XBR950, KDF-70XBR950, KF-42WE620, KF-50WE620, KDF-42WE655, and KDF-50WE655:

This is a reminder that your TV has a known failure related to lamp overheating, causing warping, melting, scorching, cracking, etc. of the lamp door and other adjacent parts in the TV. This can eventually render your TV inoperable, and it could be a safety issue.

Sony USA has an extended warranty alert for the problem, and, on March 25, 2010, they extended this warranty a second time (for an additional year). It is now set to expire on March 31st, 2011:
Limited Extended Warranty for Certain 2003 and 2004 Televisions Exhibiting Warping of the Lamp Access Door (http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/news-item.pl?&news_id=261&mdl=KF60WE610)
And Sony Canada has an offer alert for the problem:
Notice for 2003 and 2004 Model Year Grand WEGA™ Televisions (http://www.sony.ca/view/515.htm)

I recommend that all owners periodically take a look at their lamp doors (go through the procedure you would do to replace the lamp without actually unplugging it). If there is any sign of warping, melting, scorching, cracking, etc. on the lamp door itself or any surrounding parts, you should report it to Sony before the deadline expires. It may already have happened, but you are unaware of it.

If you find evidence of the problem, and you are concerned that there is a potential safety issue, please file an Incident Report with the Consumer Product Safety Commission (https://www.cpsc.gov/cgibin/incident.aspx).

In the US, I recommend insisting that Sony replaces your TV with one of EQUIVALENT SIZE and FEATURES WITHOUT CHARGE. Cite the following information (I am not an attorney, so this is legal information--not legal advice...consult an attorney for the latter):

The federal Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (Title 15 of the United States Code, Sections 2301-2312) (http://www.thelemonlawyers.com/magnuson-moss-warranty.html) states the following.

Section 2304(a)(1): "{S}uch warrantor must as a minimum remedy such consumer product within a reasonable time and without charge, in the case of a defect, malfunction, or failure to conform with such written warranty..."

Section 2301(11): "The term 'replacement' means furnishing a new consumer product which is identical or reasonably equivalent to the warranted consumer product."

Section 2304(d): "Remedy without charge. For purposes of this section and of section 2302(c) of this title, the term 'without charge' means that the warrantor may not assess the consumer for any costs the warrantor or his representatives incur in connection with the required remedy of a warranted consumer product..."

Section 2304(a)(4): "{I}f the product (or a component part thereof) contains a defect or malfunction after a reasonable number of attempts by the warrantor to remedy defects or malfunctions in such product, such warrantor must permit the consumer to elect either a refund for, or replacement without charge of, such product or part (as the case may be)..."

Here are links to Sony's original Limited Warranties:
WE610 and WE655 (http://www.docs.sony.com/release/Warranty_455716803.pdf)
WE620 (http://www.docs.sony.com/release/Warranty_265213101_Canada_EN_FR.pdf)
XBR950 (http://www.docs.sony.com/release/KDF60XBR950warranty.pdf)

Also note that, if your model number is listed, it is covered, even if it was manufactured and/or purchased in a different year than its model year.

See my Sony TV problems web site (link in my signature below) for additional details.

Jeffs386

03-27-10, 08:46 PM

I called Sony on Friday about the lamp door issue,a tech is coming out on the 1st..........I have 2 42WE655's
one has a melted lamp door,as a matter of fact it also has a damaged ballast from the heat(I wonder if that will be replaced too),I haven't used the tv since January because it smells like burning plastic and the OB is shot(OB is shot on both sets). I was going to just throw it out but since Sony doesn't want to treat me fairly on these two sets I guess I'll let them sink some money into it needlessly as I will never use it again,I feel is a fire hazard
The only thing I had asked them to do is give me the same "deal" that is offered to the XBR1 owners since I spent just as much or more on my 2 sets but they won't budge....I hope the repairman charges them at least $500
meanwhile my JVC HD-ILA sets still rocks as does my Panny plasma
never never never again Sony!

splinke

03-27-10, 11:22 PM

Jeffs386, if one of your TVs has the melting problem, Sony should fix it for free. If part of the lamp ballast was also damaged due to the excessive heat from the lamp, Sony should also replace that: "Sony will repair the lamp access door and any other components damaged as a result at no charge for any of the covered televisions."

If Sony is unwilling or unable to conduct the repair on your TV with the melted parts, based on warranty laws, they should replace it with a comparable TV free of charge (see my post above).

And, if you have not already done so, you should file an Incident Report with the CPSC, as you feel it could be a safety hazard (see the link in my above post). If they get enough reports and find the situation to be a safety problem, they could compel Sony to issue a true recall that actively informs all customers, rather than the current notice hidden on their web site.

Jeffs386

03-28-10, 05:27 PM

I will file an incident report tomorrow morning
as far as the repair goes I'm going to ask the repairman to fix the ballast,the lamp door and might even try to get a new lamp,I bet there are other melted parts inside the set I haven't looked.......the funny part is all I asked Sony to do was sell me the 46"nx set for $280 instead of $780,they refused but they will sink money into a worthless WE655
I just don't get it

BTW I have a N.O.S optical block for a 42WE655 if anybody is interested in buying

barbie845

03-29-10, 08:49 AM

My 6 1/2 year old GWIII KF-50WE610 finally died. The colors(mostly pink spots all over and a large blue streak) went all crazy which means the Optical Block went bad. The TV repair place said the repair would have cost well over $1,000 and the extended warranty people said that's too much and they won't pay so I'm expecting a call from them. 'Let's make a deal' time.

I'm betting the extended warranty company contacted Sony and Sony said don't bother fixing it. Because of all the problems with this model I get the feeling Sony just wants these models to go away.

BUT except for a couple of lamp replacements this particular set was a good set.

Pat6366

03-31-10, 07:31 PM

Has anyone with a 60" with the optical block issue gotten an offer from Sony for a deal on another 60" or is the largest they are offering the 55"?

I tried today and there is no deal offered for a 60" replaccement, so if you have a 60" and it goes bad the best you can do is a 55". I'd rather pay $300-$400 more and go up to 65 or 73" Mits.

salmonsc

04-23-10, 08:37 PM

I have a KF-50WE610 which has given me no problems for the 5 or 6 years I have had it - haven't even had to replace a bulb. A day or so ago I turned it on only to be confronted by black & white snow and a "No Signal" display. Changing the source units (Cable, DVD) or the cable connections (Component, HDMI to DVI) makes no difference. Can anyone here suggest the cause?

It doesn't seem to be one of the usual problems these models suffer from ...

jjb220

05-03-10, 12:45 PM

John Breton, not affiliated with Mr TV, I am located in Haddam, CT. I do repairs on Sony Grand Wega optical blocks/ Light engines. I say this because many people have been directed somehow to MR TV. I can be reached at cabledude0461@yahoo.com. Im not trying to advertize, im trying to correct a problem for anyone trying to get their part repaired and have found the wrong path. Thanks, John

Mockingbird

07-03-10, 09:41 AM

My 42we610 bit the dust last Friday. The lamp might have blown. It was fading in and out without any sound. It also needed a cleaning as the smudges were starting to accumulate. It was very good for its day, but the Sony 52ex700 is a noticable improvement.
I'd like to thank the contributors of this thread for their knowledge and help they have given me over the years.

Just Pete

07-05-10, 10:53 AM

That sound's like what happened to my 50.

I bought a 60" LCD to replace it in my family room and then took it completely apart, cleaned the optical unit, replaced the lamp, blew out all the accumulated dust, cleaned the reflective mirrors, etc etc. And now it plays like new.

Cost me about $100 and some personal labor time and now it sits in my bedroom in place of an older 32" tube tv that I gave to my son.

Money well spent.

Keller

07-26-10, 02:19 PM

After 7 years of faithful service and only one bulb change, my 2003 Sony KF42WE610 started having a severe color shift, where the entire screen looked like red was pushed up all the way. The problem was intermittent, but eventually happened every time we turned on the tv.
I was just going to chalk it up to the risks of trying a new technology - besides, new 42" tvs are not that expensive nowadays. Luckily, I did some web research beforehand and discovered it was a known issue and Sony was offering help, even well beyond an expired warranty.
Here is the web page outlining the issues (it has been posted here before). Interestingly, my particular issue is not detailed.
http://sites.google.com/site/sonylcdrptvproblems/#TOC

Below is the offer I received after contacting Sony. Understandably, others are very upset, especially those with larger screens (and therefore more expensive replacement costs). Personally, I was thrilled as I was expecting nothing and wanted to upgrade anyway. As this is a secondary display for the kids, I went with the 46". Sony gave me no hassle at all, as soon as I explained the issue and said "optical block problem", all I had to do was send in the serial # sticker from the back and a picture of my tv displaying the problem.

Thank you for contacting the Sony Exchange Dept.,

As discussed, we provided you an offer to replace your television.

KDL52NX800 $1175.00 + local sales tax
KDL55EX500 $825.00 + local sales tax
KDL46EX700 $550.00 + local sales tax
KDL40EX500 $275.00 + local sales tax

If you decide to accept the offer, please contact Sony at 888-993-7669 within 1 week.

Hopefully, other owners who are having problems will contact Sony first.

polymorphic

08-04-10, 04:58 PM

Wow, thanks to everyone on this thread for posting your experience with this issue. It has helped me upgrade via Sony's support. I bought the KDF-42WE655 in 2005 and it is now exhibiting the optical block blue dot and swirly hue issue. Using the info on this thread I received the following offer from Sony. Hope this helps others out there with the same craptastic quality control issue.

-----------------------------------------------------
Thank you for contacting the Sony Exchange Dept.,

As discussed, we provided you an offer to replace your television.

KDL52NX800 $975.00 + local sales tax
KDL55EX500 $625.00 + local sales tax
KDL46EX700 $350.00 + local sales tax
KDL40EX500 $75.00 + local sales tax

If you decide to accept the offer, please contact Sony at 888-993-7669 within 1 week.
-----------------------------------------------------

Just for everyone's FYI, I have to take a picture of the TV showing clearly the malfunction with an 8.5 x 11 piece of paper with the serial and offer number from Sony taped to the bottom of the TV clearly visible. Have to send that along with another piece of paper with the offer number and the tag from the back of the TV attached to a Florida address. Once they receive it, they will place my order (I had to give them a credit card number and shipping address). No charge is made until the paperwork is received and approved.

splinke

08-04-10, 07:23 PM

...I bought the KDF-42WE655 in 2005 and it is now exhibiting the optical block blue dot and swirly hue issue. Using the info on this thread I received the following offer from Sony...

You should also check for the lamp overheating/melting issue (http://sites.google.com/site/sonylcdrptvproblems/lamp-overheating-issue), as this is another known defect in your WE655 model that is still under warranty. If you have it, it could further improve your offers, including a free comparable replacement TV.

polymorphic

08-05-10, 02:30 PM

I'll have to pry into it and see. Amazingly enough I've never had to change the bulb in this thing.

speedbump

08-23-10, 10:02 AM

I've been out of the loop for a while because I haven't had any issues with my 42WE610. It still works fine. Now after catching up on recent posts here, I'm a little nervous since it sounds like my set will inevitably melt down/fail. I don't watch it as often as most--usually a movie a week (plus a game or two during football season). I probably haven't had it on long enough to induce the issues the rest of you had or melt anything.

Since the "secret extended warranty" is only good for a few more months, I'm wondering if I shouldn't leave it on for a week straight (or longer?) so that if it fails it will be during the warranty period. I'm afraid if I don't accelerate the issue, it will die just past the warranty extension and I'll be SOL.

splinke

08-23-10, 04:27 PM

...Since the "secret extended warranty" is only good for a few more months, I'm wondering if I shouldn't leave it on for a week straight (or longer?) so that if it fails it will be during the warranty period. I'm afraid if I don't accelerate the issue, it will die just past the warranty extension and I'll be SOL.

The secret extended warranty on the WE610 models expired back in June of 2008 (https://sites.google.com/site/sonylcdrptvproblems/#TOC-Summary-of-Sony-optical-block-warra).

speedbump

08-23-10, 04:39 PM

The secret extended warranty on the WE610 models expired back in June of 2008 (https://sites.google.com/site/sonylcdrptvproblems/#TOC-Summary-of-Sony-optical-block-warra).

Understood. I was thinking of the lamp overheating issue which I thought was covered until March of next year.

splinke

08-24-10, 12:39 AM

Understood. I was thinking of the lamp overheating issue which I thought was covered until March of next year.

Oh, sorry, you're absolutely correct. The overheating issue secret warranty does not expire until next March. Since you mentioned leaving it on continuously for a week, I thought you misinterpreted the August expiration of another set of optical block secret extended warranties on other models. My bad.

DJART

08-24-10, 10:51 PM

I have a kdf60xbr950 manufacturer date of November 2004. I have taken the block out about 15 times in hopes of figuring out the issue. I found that is you take the lid off case you will hear all the mirrors drop. I felt that I had just lost all the convergence. However to my surprise i had not. If you leave the screws that are set in place,that are covered in red glue type stuff all will be fine during reassemble.

My question is “ WHY HAS NO ONE FOUND A PLACE TO BUY THE Mirrors. Its 2010 and I have spent over 6 hours online looking for a source and there is no one making theses things. I can see that the first mirror from the light source is starting to bleach a little. Thue giving me a little discoloration.

My questions.
Do either John the cabledude from CT or Tri State in Indiana replace the Mirrors that are bleached during the rebuild?

Has anyone replaced a bad LCD panel if so what is the cost? I have a pattern on the LCD with the part number lcx043and4 GR This has been with the tv since i bought it on ebay in 2007.

On a separate note I took the Sony offer of $425 for a new Ex50 which is a 55 inch. My TV did not have the Warped door issue. They replaced it on the bad block alone.

Koy

08-25-10, 10:05 PM

DJART

How did you go about getting them to offer you the EX500 55 for $425?

DJART

08-26-10, 03:04 PM

I called the sony number and told them I had a KDf60xbr950 with color issues and wanted options to get the set repaired and was wondering what sony was doing to repair the set I paid over $5000 for just 5 years back. He then asked me about the TV if I had done any work on the set. I said no. Then he wanted to know its purch date. He then said that sony cared about customer service and that they where not offering repair for the set. He then offered me 4 options.

I took the one that my wife would not like, thus the set is still sitting behind my desk. the offers where 46 for $125 a 52 with internet for $750 and a 55 for $425.

The 55 I took, I did see at target and I have to say it does not even come close to the picture quality of the 2004 xbr. I can not believe people are happy with the quality of picture that the large LCD have. I'm speaking of SD playback which is in fact still over 50% of the programing in any household watches. When will the up-converting get better!! WHEN!!

I think the most important thing to do on your call is to be polite while showing disappointment that you spent $5k on a set that only lasted 5 years.

sucha deal!

08-26-10, 05:07 PM

I was offered the 55ex500 for $825 (plus tax) under the optical upgrade program, for my KF-50WE610, which is a little older. It "only" cost me $3500! Although it seems like a good price for a new 55", it's not that great a deal. It's been reported that they are now selling in the $1200/$1300 price range.

splinke

08-27-10, 12:36 PM

...My question is “ WHY HAS NO ONE FOUND A PLACE TO BUY THE Mirrors. Its 2010 and I have spent over 6 hours online looking for a source and there is no one making theses things. I can see that the first mirror from the light source is starting to bleach a little. Thue giving me a little discoloration.

My questions.
Do either John the cabledude from CT or Tri State in Indiana replace the Mirrors that are bleached during the rebuild?

Has anyone replaced a bad LCD panel if so what is the cost? I have a pattern on the LCD with the part number lcx043and4 GR This has been with the tv since i bought it on ebay in 2007...

Technically, it's not the "mirrors" that go bad, and it is unlikely that lenses close to the lamp contribute much to the problem. It is typically the input polarizer filter in the blue light path (orange in color) and the blue LCD panel that are the problems. John Breton (CT) and Tri-State Module (IN) are able to replace these parts, but they are not sharing the sources. They charge $200 and $300, respectively for the rebuild.

Replacing an LCD panel requires that precise convergence adjustments are made, which apparently necessitates special equipment, so you may not be able to do the replacement yourself anyway.

DJART

08-27-10, 04:31 PM

Splinke Many thanks for the reply!

Perfect I will contact them when I have an extra $300 for the repair. You are correct its the first Orange glass panel at a 45 angle from the light source that shows the burn very well. As well as the pattern issue on the LCD panel.

I wanted to throw this thought for the group.

Would using a Non Sony bulb accelerate this issue? Is there a UV coating on the factory Sony bulb that is not on the knock off bulbs? BTW my set is at the 11K hour mark total time. Just wondering!

I love this TV. I think the picture when set up right can still rival anything out there.! The sound is bar-non. The funny thing is I have no problem spending $300 for something i know will only last 5 years!!

Again many thanks for all the help from the group!

djart

splinke

08-27-10, 04:36 PM

...Would using a Non Sony bulb accelerate this issue? Is there a UV coating on the factory Sony bulb that is not on the knock off bulbs? BTW my set is at the 11K hour mark total time. Just wondering!...

That is possible, but probably unlikely. My KDF-55WF655 has only had Sony-branded lamps (three of them in total), and it failed twice with blue discolorations--both times after an average of about 7,000 hours of usage. So, sticking with OEM Sony lamps does not prevent the problem.

speedbump

08-30-10, 02:53 PM

williambonetto

08-30-10, 11:32 PM

Hey guys, been reading this thread for hours. Can anyone tell just by looking at this pic if this is an optical block issue or something else?

Thanks
Bill

hdefjunkie

09-07-10, 03:03 PM

splinke

09-07-10, 05:45 PM

Ok. Bit the bullet and took Sony up on their offer to replace my 60" GW. So now
I need to figure out what to do with it. I really hate to send it all to the garbage
dump as there's components in there that are still good, except for the OB.

What's everyone else doing? Is there a replacement part market (not looking
to recoup alot of $$) for GW3's?

If you are interested in a temporary fix, you can have your optical block rebuilt by John Breton ($199) or Tri-State Module ($299). It will likely work for a few more years. See my Optical Block Replacement (https://sites.google.com/site/sonylcdrptvproblems/sonykdf-55wf655opticalblockreplacement) page for details.

wilbur_the_goose

11-04-10, 06:23 PM

I have a 60xbr950 without any issues. Still running the original lamp.

Would a new lamp improve the PQ? This is an ISF-calibrated set and the PQ seems to be getting worse over time. I actually bought a $399 32" Sony HDTV a couple of months ago for the bedroom, and its PQ is better than than my XBR950.

The XBR950's PQ isn't exactly bad, but it's not great either.

Thanks for your advice.

Blazing_angel_

11-21-10, 12:29 PM

i still have my kf 50we620- in fact, its my main tv :D
only problem is it has some overscan issues:confused:

MJedi

12-09-10, 11:04 PM

After over 6 years, my 50-inch GWIII's original bulb gave out. I checked the lamp access door, and the sides are melted. So I called Sony support and arranged for a tech to repair it. Hopefully, the tech will know about the warranty. But I have printed the Sony warranty notice to show him, just in case. We will see what happens next.

MJedi

12-20-10, 01:00 PM

My KF-50WE610 is dead. The tech looked at for just a few minutes. He called Sony and arranged for a replacement since it was covered by the melted lamp access door warranty. I was given some options and I made my decision to get the KDL-55EX500. Guess it's time to say goodbye to this thread. It's been very informative and helpful. See you at the "Official KDL..EX500/501 Thread."

jakemir

01-02-11, 08:59 AM

jjb220 can you contact me regaurding reconditioning my optical block. Thanks, Jakemir

splinke

01-06-11, 01:29 PM

jjb220 can you contact me regaurding reconditioning my optical block. Thanks, Jakemir

You might want to try emailing him directly, if he does not respond here. His email address is on my Optical Block Replacement (http://sites.google.com/site/sonylcdrptvproblems/sonykdf-55wf655opticalblockreplacement) page.

mightihd

01-17-11, 07:50 PM

If my tv only has lamp door melting issue, but not the optical block problem, what will sony do? Thanks!

speedbump

01-18-11, 12:05 AM

If my tv only has lamp door melting issue, but not the optical block problem, what will sony do? Thanks!

They'll send you a free refurbished unit or cut you a deal on a new one.

htevolution

01-18-11, 12:26 PM

I've recently had a new issue pop up with my 50WE610. I just changed the bulb on the set (only the second bulb change in 6+ years). Now, within a minute or two of turning on the set, the screen will go blank (just black like it has no signal) for somewhere between 20 and 60 seconds. When the picture comes back, it slowly comes up to full brightness like it does at first power up. The sound continues while the screen is blank.

Once the picture is back up, everything works flawlessly and doesn't drop out again.

The GWIII is fed via HDMI->DVI cable from my Onkyo TX-NR807 AVR. All of my video components go to the AVR first then out the TV. The blank screen happens on every input as far as I can tell.

I know the HDMI->DVI cable is good. I guess the next step would be to take the receiver out of the loop and connect directly to the TV to isolate the problem. But before I tear my wiring apart, I wanted to see if anyone else has come across this issue.

Thanks for your help.

Note: I'm cross-posting this to the NR807 thread.

MJedi

01-18-11, 05:22 PM

If my tv only has lamp door melting issue, but not the optical block problem, what will sony do? Thanks!

My WE610 did not have the optical block problem, but had the melted lamp door. Sony offered me several options to replace the TV, at an additional cost. It was around 1/3 the cost of the brand new models.

chiliwil

01-18-11, 08:13 PM

HTEvolution - Our 42WE610 has the same issue. It was working flawlessly until a week before Christmas, then the lamp wouldn't light and the power light flashed red 5 times (not the lamp light). We replaced the lamp with an authorized 2100U lamp. It worked fine.

3 weeks later, the lamp would cycle. It would turn on for about 25 seconds, then turn off. A faint ticking sound could be heard as it attempted to re-light. After 25 seconds or so, the lamp would light for another 20-30 seconds, then go out. It would attempt to relight again, and so on.

The fan was running during this whole time. There is not much dust built up and I vacuumed the vents.

Unfortunately, I just discovered the site I bought the lamp from doesn't have a warranty (why didn't I check that first?), so I'm out $140. I don't want to spend more $ on another lamp just to have the same thing happen.

Has anyone else experienced this cycling? If so, what fixed it?

htevolution

01-19-11, 03:18 PM

ChuckF.

01-19-11, 10:48 PM

chiliwil

01-20-11, 07:51 PM

The bulb was a "Sony XL-2100U housing with lamp installed". The company states:

The DLP & LCD lamps we offer are original manufacturer replacement lamps only. We do not offer generic reproduction lamps commonly referred to as "OEM Compatible".

I returned the lamp to the company and they say they will replace it. Hopefully the cycling was due to a defective lamp.

If not, what do I try next?

splinke

01-25-11, 02:10 PM

My WE610 did not have the optical block problem, but had the melted lamp door. Sony offered me several options to replace the TV, at an additional cost. It was around 1/3 the cost of the brand new models.

Sony is required to repair your TV or replace it with a reasonably equivalent TV FREE OF CHARGE, because the lamp melting issue is still under warranty through March of 2011. It is unethical and illegal for Sony to charge you for a replacement TV, if they are unwilling to repair it, but I guess that is how Sony has chosen to conduct their business. See my Lamp Overheating Issue page for details:
http://sites.google.com/site/sonylcdrptvproblems/lamp-overheating-issue

kronic160

01-27-11, 12:53 PM

Well, it's been a long while since I posted but since I started getting the blue lines on my 42WE610 I figure I come back to where I first read up on this TV before buying it.

I called sony yesterday and they asked for a photo of issue and SN and then they will offer me something... crossing my fingers for a sweet deal. Currently a little tap on the side gets rid of the lines but its the start of something worse.

I was planning to upgrade anyway but at a discounted price I hope this is a better deal than I can find. I will keep you guys updated.

cutie patooty

02-04-11, 03:35 PM

speedbump

02-04-11, 06:57 PM

I hope you have another tv to watch the game on. You're not getting that Sony working before Sunday. Sounds like it is the lamp driver issue.

A warped lamp door won't cause those symptoms, but if you open it up and find signs of the lamp overheating, you'll be due a replacement set.

Either way you'll be out of commission for a while. It took about 3 months for me to get a replacement.

cutie patooty

02-07-11, 11:25 AM

Thanks Speedbump. We opened it up and found very little overheating. There was some signs of the screws around the lamp door looking like they were exposed to some heat but not enough to cause warping of the door. I appreciate your response. I am going to file a report with consumer protection since we already had our optical block replaced a few years back, now the lamp driver won't work, and possibly someday the lamp door may warp in the future. It just feels like these sets should be recalled. Don't get me wrong-I loved my TV. But we spent a huge amount of money in 2003 for a tv that has had problems every since we bought it and now has had 2 different extended warranties for 2 different majorly expensive problems. Sony replaced our optical block (we had the blue squiggle roadmap issue) parts for free in 2006 but I had to pay for the service and labor myself-we didn't know that they offered reimbursement for optical block replacement service and labor in 2008. Bummer.
And now this lamp driver issue. I have seen alot of people on the net with the lamp driver issue. I really hope they extend the warranty on that part too someday or recall this tv. Thanks again for all of your help.

speedbump

02-07-11, 03:49 PM

Thanks Speedbump. We opened it up and found very little overheating. There was some signs of the screws around the lamp door looking like they were exposed to some heat but not enough to cause warping of the door.

Did you actually take off the door, remove the lamp and look inside the lamp compartment? Even if the door isn't warped (mine wasn't), there may still be a lamp overheating issue. While my door wasn't melted badly out-of shape, the area around the lamp was cracked, discolored and some of the plastic was melted. The insulation on the wire leads near the lamp also were charred. This was enough to warrant a replacement of my 42WE610 (also purchased in 2003).

If you see any of these symptoms of an over heating lamp, I suggest you contact Sony and start the process to see if you can get it replaced. I'm certainly not suggesting that you misrepresent anything, but Sony never actually looked at mine or even requested a picture. They initially had me schedule a service visit to verify the issue and see if it could be repaired, but the local authorized shop knew that there was no fix for the overheating issue and cancelled the visit. I just had to submit the sticker off the back with the serial number.

cutie patooty

02-08-11, 08:42 AM

Did you actually take off the door, remove the lamp and look inside the lamp compartment? Even if the door isn't warped (mine wasn't), there may still be a lamp overheating issue. While my door wasn't melted badly out-of shape, the area around the lamp was cracked, discolored and some of the plastic was melted. The insulation on the wire leads near the lamp also were charred. This was enough to warrant a replacement of my 42WE610 (also purchased in 2003).

If you see any of these symptoms of an over heating lamp, I suggest you contact Sony and start the process to see if you can get it replaced. I'm certainly not suggesting that you misrepresent anything, but Sony never actually looked at mine or even requested a picture. They initially had me schedule a service visit to verify the issue and see if it could be repaired, but the local authorized shop knew that there was no fix for the overheating issue and cancelled the visit. I just had to submit the sticker off the back with the serial number.

Thanks so much Speedbump. This is very helpful info. I think maybe the charring on the screws for the lampdoor maybe indicate there is overheating.
I will use that info for starting the process of replacement with Sony. Although, everytime I call-they are so unhelpful. You guys are so great-thanks for all the info!

speedbump

02-08-11, 10:11 AM

Thanks so much Speedbump. This is very helpful info. I think maybe the charring on the screws for the lampdoor maybe indicate there is overheating.
I will use that info for starting the process of replacement with Sony. Although, everytime I call-they are so unhelpful. You guys are so great-thanks for all the info!

Yeah, try unscrewing them and look inside. It might be ugly.

You've only just begun the frustration of dealing with the unhelpful folks at Sony. The end result was okay for me but three months of dealing with them on the phone was torture. Every time you call, after they finally answer, they'll have to put you on hold several times. Each time will be for 5-10 minutes while they review you file. Then they'll transfer you to someone else and start over again. It will take 30-45 minutes just to get a status update. Hope you have a bluetooth headset or a way to multitask during many hours of hold time so you don't go crazy.

Good luck!

bluer101

02-08-11, 10:26 AM

Thanks so much Speedbump. This is very helpful info. I think maybe the charring on the screws for the lampdoor maybe indicate there is overheating.
I will use that info for starting the process of replacement with Sony. Although, everytime I call-they are so unhelpful. You guys are so great-thanks for all the info!

Don't call Sony! Go to this facebook page ( http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-Have-a-Defective-Sony-TV/182875766612?v=wall&viewas=0) and follow the directions in the information area on the top right of the page. Send an email to that address with your model and serial numbers, symptom and contact information including a phone number. They will call you back within 1-2 days (mine was next morning). Tell them your problem and ask that you want to be offered a replacement set. They will give you options for whats available. Post back after you have started the process.:)

kronic160

02-15-11, 10:03 AM

I called sony and was pretty happy. You get the odd guy that doesn't care but there were 2 guys that moved the process along for me. Got offered 40ex400 and a 46hx701.

Looking at 46 for sure but I asked for something bigger. They said they ran out of 52" so they'll throw me a quote for a 55". I beleive taking a 2010 model over a 2011 will same me big bucks as it seems they discount the repair cost off the retail price. The will rather get rid of the 2010 models so I will be more than happy to take something off their hands.

cutie patooty

02-15-11, 10:19 AM

Hello,
It has been awhile since I posted. I have an issue with my KF60WE610 that I am hoping you can help me with. When we turn on our tv the green light flashes on the power/stand by light 3 or 4 times with a loud buzzing sound and then it goes to a blinking red light that blinks 5 times and the tv won't turn on. Could this be a warped lamp access door problem or a bulb problem? I haven't looked at the door to see if it is warped or damaged yet. I know that when the standy by light blinks red 5 times ti means the lamp driver is faulty but I am wondering if the lamp driver is faulty due to the lamp warping the access door or the driver itself? Could these be related? Hoping to have my tv fixed covered under the warranty for the lamp access door since i don't want to pay for the lamp driver to be replaced. Let me know if you have had similar problems and what the fix was. Thanks so much!
(my husband thanks you too since Super Bowl Sunday is coming up quick!)

*** Update****
I wanted to let you know how we solved our problem. We did not have any lamp door warping. We did however remove the current lamp to check, while we were there-we cleaned the dust from the inside of where the lamp sits, and we put the lamp back in and put the tv back together. Ever since, we have not had a problem with the TV powering on or giving us the 5 red blinking error codes. We think that somehow, when they replaced our optical block (that's a whole different story) years ago-they must have knocked something out of whack and we tightened it up. We have a replacement lamp on hand just in case in the future if our current lamp burns out but for the record-we have been using the same lamp since 2003. We watch tv on average for about 3 hours a day. I think we must have some kind of super lamp to last this long. Anyway-thanks for all your ideas and help. I am really hoping that our tv doesnt' decide to warp the lamp door a month after that warranty runs out. So cleaning out the dust/reinstalling the lamp solved our buzzing poweron problem this time.

speedbump

02-15-11, 11:39 AM

*** Update****
I wanted to let you know how we solved our problem. We did not have any lamp door warping. We did however remove the current lamp to check, while we were there-we cleaned the dust from the inside of where the lamp sits, and we put the lamp back in and put the tv back together. Ever since, we have not had a problem with the TV powering on or giving us the 5 red blinking error codes. We think that somehow, when they replaced our optical block (that's a whole different story) years ago-they must have knocked something out of whack and we tightened it up. We have a replacement lamp on hand just in case in the future if our current lamp burns out but for the record-we have been using the same lamp since 2003. We watch tv on average for about 3 hours a day. I think we must have some kind of super lamp to last this long. Anyway-thanks for all your ideas and help. I am really hoping that our tv doesnt' decide to warp the lamp door a month after that warranty runs out. So cleaning out the dust/reinstalling the lamp solved our buzzing poweron problem this time.

Glad you got it working again.

I hate to rain on your parade but wanted to let you know that you may not be completely out of the woods. Back when I had my lamp driver issue, I could occasionally get it to fire up by removing and reinserting the lamp. There was a time when I kept the front panel off because I would have to do this so often.The condition kept degrading however and eventually no amount of lamp reseating would get it to fire.

Hopefully this isn't the case for you.

kronic160

02-23-11, 07:44 AM

Just finalized my replacement LCD 46HX701 for under $80 to replace my GIII 42" which has these nice blue lines from left to right. $80 for some people is a tank of gas...:D

smata67

03-01-11, 08:53 AM

bluer101

03-01-11, 09:56 AM

speedbump

03-01-11, 11:08 AM

So I called in today to see what Sony would do about the blue bob on my KF60WE610. They offered, all in the 55" size:

EX710: $625
HX800: $1,575
NX810: $1,060

First, I'm not sure that I want to downsize, in fact, the wife wants something bigger.

I definitely do not want a glossy screen, I'll have to look into which ones are, those would be a no go.

I feel comfortable purchasing a refurb of my optical block for $200 and doing the install myself, but I'm wondering if I should just bite the bullet and upgrade. My current block has no dead pixels.

For those who have upgraded, is it a no-brainer to get one of the newer sets? Are they really that much better? I guess I'm kind of attached to this hunk of plastic and would not know what to do with it if I got another set.

Athough I wouldn't classify it as a no-brainer, TV technology has come a long way in the last 8 years. Based on my experience moving from a WE610 to the EX710 you will definitely notice a huge improvement it contrast. I thought my WE610 still had a great picture, but next to a new LCD TV it looks dull and fuzzy. Blacker blacks, better detail in dark/shadow scenes. 1080p resolution is nice. If you will take advantage of it, the HDMI connectivity, internet TV options (Pandora, Netflix, streaming content from your PC) are also a great upgrade.

Potential downside--if you check out the EX710 thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1276422) you'll find plenty of complaints about the uneven backlighting of an edge-lit LCD (flashlighting). The viewing angle is also worse than the old LCD RPTV. In most cases if you're directly in front of the set it looks great but if you move off to the side much it goes downhill in a hurry. Speakers don't sound as good either (may be a moot point if you use an external system for sound).

If you haven't yet, check to see if you have any signs of lamp overheating. If so you might get an even cheaper option from Sony.

smata67

03-02-11, 10:35 AM

I have gotten an offer for both a 60ex710 and nx810. I will try to check them out this weekend, hopefully BB has them on display.

I have not competely ruled out doing a self-fix, but John Bretton doesn't return my email.

smata67

03-05-11, 08:13 AM

Well, I was able to get to the SonyStyle store and take a look at all the latest offerings. Looks like I'm going with the NX810, that picture is astonishingly good. The clarity is unbelievable. I highly recommend anyone given the opportunity to purchase one to do it. The EX710 beside it lagged significantly in picture quality. The matte screen, as in my old 60WE610, was probably the reason. I noticed the same when I upgraded from the GWII, without a matte screen, the non-matte surface just offers a clearer, more detailed picture. I'll just have to live with the reflections, if indeed they will be there, when placed in my room.

kronic160

03-14-11, 01:20 PM

Just got my TV on the weekend... Seems instead of the 46HX701 they sent me a 46EX620 instead for under $80. Can't complain. Glad I didn't have to pay so much as others are being offered. Anything over $100 I would be thinking of joining the lawsuit. We dropped $3500 for these GIII and they want us to drop more $$$ on new ones. I'm just glad everything is done.

marvincbr

03-20-11, 11:02 AM

ChuckF.

03-20-11, 05:28 PM

It's been awhile since I've been here, but checked in because of bulb/lamp issues with my 60WE610. The original lamp went out yesterday and when I put in the new one (had one sitting in the closet already), it made a buzzing sound and would not light up. Not to mention I also noted the melting issues that these sets are known for, that you don't see until you open it up to change the lamp. So now returning to this forum which has helped me so much in the past. I found the facebook link for the defective Sony TV's and have sent an e-mail to see if they will help with the problem. So far this set has been a good TV, only minor issues. Now to wait for Sony to contact me and see where it goes. Thanks to all for keeping this thread going....

You didn't mention what flashy codes you were getting from the front LEDs.

That heat and warping causes other problems too. I'd check to make sure that the lamp is meeting the connector. Look in the lamp hole at the connector and make sure it hasn't broken off or been damaged otherwise.

When you put the lamp hole cover back on, there's a peg on the cover that has to hit the door switch just right or the tv won't come on. The heat warps that too so it can miss the spot. The peg will droop from the heat.

Is the lamp a good Osram or Phillips? Not a Chinese knock-off? Is the connector clean?

marvincbr

03-20-11, 08:15 PM

ChuckF.

03-20-11, 11:04 PM

I did look inside the lamp area and there are signs of excessive heat. I did not notice the pin that the door pushes to be drooping or otherwise, I've had to pull and reseat the lamp to get the set to come on a couple of times. The lamp is the Sony XL-2100U. And I'm not sure what codes were flashing, it was a constant flash of the red lamp light when the set does not turn on after buzzing two or three times.

The red lamp light flashing means a bad lamp, and the buzzing sound is the lamp ballast trying to light the lamp. It tries a few times and then declares the lamp bad.

If it was the door switch you would get different lights. Are you real sure that the lamp you are trying is new? Are the contacts clean and not corroded?

marvincbr

03-21-11, 05:19 PM

Thinking about it now, the lamp that I'm thinking is new, is probably my old one that I saved as a spare. I think that is why I replaced it, it was making that buzzing sound.

phoen1c1an

04-17-11, 05:53 PM

Just a heads up guys. I recently had my KF-42WE610 go bad. The screen has turned green. I had been through this before with a KDF-46E2000, so I knew it was the OB gone bad. I had the previous tv replaced by Sony at a discount so I figured I'd go this route with this television too since it was the same problem. I contacted the woman via Facebook and got my event number. I then called Sony and was offered these televisions.

KDL55EX720 $810.00 local sales tax
KDL46EX720 $550.00 local sales tax
KDL40EX720 $450.00 local sales tax

I was actually in the market for a 3d television set, so I opted for one. They basically require me now to send them a picture of the television exhibiting the problem, which they did before, and the tag from the back of the television. This time though, they are requiring the event number be in the picture. Has anyone done this? I'm guessing they just want it at the bottom of the television? I don't want to mess this up, so I'm curious if anyone has any examples they can post if they've done this before. DON'T POST YOUR ACTUALLY EVENT NUMBER I'm guessing someone might be able to use that, but rather just an example for me and future readers to go by. You can probably just blur out your number or just put a piece of paper where it should be. I appreciate your help guys and I hope my experience helps you guys out too. Real bummer these rear projections from Sony don't last.

davidos

04-29-11, 03:14 PM

phoen1c1an

05-01-11, 09:49 AM

davidos

05-02-11, 09:46 AM

I went with the 55" even though it was a bit pricey.

From what I can gather the TV is very nice. Cnet's review was harsh, and every other review I've read since coming across theirs has been very positive. The 3d does show some transference, but the 2d is supposed to be very clear. All reviews have noted though that there is definite clouding issues due to the backlit LED. I already have one and it's not an issue (kdl-46nx700). There is no wifi, but it does have the built in transmitter for active sync 3d. The glasses come seperate though, at a whopping 150 a pop :eek: I'm going to search the forums and see if there is a cheaper alternative. Which size are you thinking about? Cheers.

Thanks for the info!

My offer was as follows:
KDL40EX720 - $450 + tax
KDL46EX720 - $575 + tax
KDL55HX800 - $1000 + tax

I am thinking the 46" is the best bang for the buck but I am still not too thrilled about spending ~$650 for a new TV... Do they charge shipping?

They say that I have 1 week to decide... not thrilled about that either.

run53

05-06-11, 08:51 AM

hey folks,

New here. I have a 2003 vintage 60" GWIII. I just started experiencing the "buzz" issue on startup (TV won't turn on green light blinks and get a solid Lamp LED). I seem to recall having an issue back when I first purchased this and the tech replaced a lamp driver (I think). The thing is , my bulb finally dies in January of this year and I replaced it with a backup OSRAM I had purchased several years ago (but never used). The buzz issue started shortly after replacing the bulb (although I saw a significant picture quality improvement with the new bulb).

The buzz problem has only happened about 6-8 times since January. usually, I just unplug the set then it will start up ok. But last night that didn't work. So I re-seated the lamp and cleaned out the dust and light corrosion (not really bad). Started right up after that.

So, I'm sure this will continue to degrade over time. Does anyone know if this problem is fixable by myself? Is there a part number (lamp driver) that I can order if this is a DIY project?

holabr

05-13-11, 11:19 PM

splinke

05-16-11, 01:31 PM

I'm having a problem with my KF42WE610. When I try to power it up, the green light flashes on the power/stand by light 3 or 4 times and then red light blinks 6 times and the tv won't turn on. After I press the power button 6-10 times it will eventually power up and work fine. Could this be related to the warped lamp door problem? I did replace the bulb for the first time about 2 years ago. If it isn't related to the bulb heat problem, do you have any idea what it could be and what it may cost to have it repaired. I still like the set and don't have any other issues with it.

How old is your lamp? If it has been in use for quite awhile, it may be failing.

If you have the lamp overheating problem, there is an extended warranty that still covers that issue through March of 2012. Examine your lamp door, and then remove the door and lamp and look at the frame of the TV in the area surrounding the lamp. If there is no melting, cracking, or warping, then you do not have the problem. If only the lamp door is affected, then Sony must repair it free of charge. If the affected areas include the frame around the lamp area, then Sony will likely be unable or unwilling to repair it, and then they must provide you a replacement TV free of charge. See my web site for details: http://sites.google.com/site/sonylcdrptvproblems/lamp-overheating-issue

arkafrog

06-09-11, 10:33 PM

Email back the Sony listens and put att Sarah Kepler and your event I'd#. Tell her you would like a quote fir a 60 inch as that is what you have now. She will email you back with another offer.

The only tv that does not have the reflective screen on your offer is the 710.

Yes, I'm extremely happy with my replacement set and for me I went up 5 inches. My defective set was kdf 55wf655 to the new set kdl 60ex700.

Can you tell me how much was the 60 inch quote?

MEXICOEDDIE

06-18-11, 08:32 PM

How can i get these parts? Or i have to buy the whole engine light?

ck_77

06-27-11, 03:34 PM

Thanks for the info!

My offer was as follows:
KDL40EX720 - $450 + tax
KDL46EX720 - $575 + tax
KDL55HX800 - $1000 + tax

I am thinking the 46" is the best bang for the buck but I am still not too thrilled about spending ~$650 for a new TV... Do they charge shipping?

They say that I have 1 week to decide... not thrilled about that either.

About a year ago, I noticed a couple of small purple dots appear in the top left corner of the screen, but they were relatively small and I assumed that I wouldn't have any options for a fix since the TV was 4.5 years old. About 6 months ago I had to replace the lamp, I think that was $150 or so and I don't recall any noticeable melting but I am not sure that I would have necessarily looked for it back then either. No other problems until earlier this week when the green tint showed up.
When i called Sony I received the following offer:

KDL46BX421 @ $325 + tax

KDL55EX710 @ $650 + tax

KDL40EX720 @ $450 + tax

I saw on another site where some users were advising they received better offers so i tried to contact SonyListens via the Facebook page. Pat Kennedy responded via email and asked me to call the 888 number to receive more information on my current offers. I called and was advised that now the 40" option was no longer available and the offer on the other two TV's was the same.

I pulled the lamp cover this weekend and noticed 2-3 scorch marks on the interior of the area housing the lamp.

Does anyone have any advice?

patrickgillette

09-22-11, 09:09 AM

If people are visiting this thread or comparison reasons when evaluating "Replacement Offers" be sure to read the post on SlickDeals.

http://slickdeals.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2059410

My own experience;

Broken KF-50WE610 bought in October of 2003.

It's plagued with a large area of blue dots, large blue blobs in the corners, and inside 'smudges' that go across the screen.

More importantly, it's got significant melting/warping of the lamp door and inside the lamp housing. This specific defect is the reason why some people get higher replacement offers in comparison with people who have just screen issues.

The offers from Sony were

KDL-55EX720 $810+tax
KDL-46EX720 $550+tax
KDL-40EX720 $450+tax
KDL-55EX720 (refurbished) No Charge

I contacted SonyListens to try and work a discount on a larger model. They will not offer 60-inch models for discount if you currently have a smaller sized model. SonyListens says they have to save the 60-inch models for people who are trading in 60's, there's a limited supply. If you message the reps on the FB page, they will quote you an offer on any sized model TV (60-inch excluded).

KDL-55NX720 $1405+tax

I eventually took the refurbished 55EX720 offer for No Charge (SonyListens extended the warranty to 1-year for free).

blotchy_sony

09-22-11, 10:44 AM

Screw Sony

A few years ago, they offered me a modest discount (off their high retail prices) for all of the problems I incurred, including the screen and the melted housing around the lamp. They were also very unapologetic and insincere through the entire process.

I was a long time fan of Sony, going back to the seventies. Now I don't look at their products, not because they manufactured a crappy product that I purchased, but the way they handled it.

taroy1

10-10-11, 06:08 PM

2 weeks ago, a Sony authorize tech came to see my melted KF-42WE610. He was only here for 5 minutes and took a picture to send back to Sony. Last week, Sony called and made these offers:

KDL46EX720 $550 + local sales tax
KDL55EX720 $810 + local sales tax
KDL40EX720 $450 + local sales tax
KDL46EX500 (refurbished) at no charge

Like patrickgillette above, I also took the refurbished offer at no charge. They required a signed settlement letter and the original sticker from the back of the TV showing the model and serial numbers. The replacement TV should arrive within 3 weeks. As such, I am very happy with the way Sony handled my case. Who can complain about an upgrade such as this for an 8 year old rear projection TV.

splinke

10-27-11, 08:06 PM

IMPORTANT NOTICE

I maintain the informational web site (https://sites.google.com/site/sonylcdrptvproblems/) on Sony optical block and related problems with their 2002-2007 rear projection liquid crystal TVs. Sony had been running an "optical block program" for about 1-1/2 years in which owners of these failed TVs received discounts off newer direct-view LCD TVs in exchange for a legal release. This program was abruptly terminated today, and the "I Have A Defective Sony TV" Facebook page, with tens of thousands of customer posts, was turned off.

If you have a pending settlement with Sony for a failed optical block, you should probably try to resolve it quickly, as it is unknown whether Sony will be offering any future program. There is an alternative Facebook page called "I Still Have a Defective Sony TV (https://www.facebook.com/pages/I-Still-Have-a-Defective-Sony-TV/200792536623139)" that can be used for general discussion/complaints.

splinke

10-27-11, 08:09 PM

Please note that the lamp overheating issue is still under an extended Sony warranty through March 31, 2012. Everybody with WE or XBR950 models should periodically check for evidence of heat-induced melting or cracking around the lamp area. See my Lamp Overheating Issue (https://sites.google.com/site/sonylcdrptvproblems/lamp-overheating-issue) page for details.

sfsteve

01-12-12, 12:14 PM

My GWIII purchased in February 2004 is still running just fine except for a few dead pixels - replaced the lamp once. Am I the last man standing here?

taroy1

01-12-12, 07:19 PM

If so, congrats! Bask in the glory of that very honorable achievement.

htevolution

01-13-12, 11:26 AM

My GWIII purchased in February 2004 is still running just fine except for a few dead pixels - replaced the lamp once. Am I the last man standing here?

My November 2003 GWIII is still going strong. Changed the bulb twice and that's it. Knock on wood...

dishbacker

01-20-12, 07:53 AM

I've used 2 bulbs on my Dec. 2003 GWIII. I think my second one wasn't of the highest quality and it is about time to get a 3rd. Got over 6,000 hours on the original bulb and nearly that many used on my first replacement. Haven't checked recently to see what my second replacement bulb life is like.

bigbw

01-20-12, 08:30 AM

my GWIII is working fine.. I checked the lamp door last week and it is perfect.. Never had an issue with it at all..

opticalblockhead

02-02-12, 09:27 PM

Thought I would add another chapter to my journey with the GWIII I got in 2004.
Optical Block went bad in December 09
I took Sony to small claims court in 2010 and won $600 plus court filing fees $30
The TV was always usable but had the blue haze that was getting larger by the week. About 6 months ago, I tried to use it and it developed a yellow streak that looked really bad.
Fast forward to last week, I found the optical block was available for about 300 new from Tri State Modules. Decided I could restore it to former glory if I did the replacement myself. I followed the pictures I found on here and the blog about the TV on google sites. I was able to get the new optical block in and working, but there was a blue tint already on visible as well as some white light spots. I called Tri State and they said they would replace it. I am expecting it by tomorrow so I can have my 60" GWIII working for the superbowl. It's still a great picture when it's working right.

andy sullivan

03-07-12, 07:11 PM

My 50WE610 just developed a distinct red haze over everything. Help please

crabbz

03-14-12, 08:38 PM

My Dec 2003 GWIII is still running great. I've never changed the bulb! Should I change it if I want to get a couple more years out of it?

GRobertson

03-24-12, 02:40 PM

My Sony 50WE610 just calved.....was running dim for a long time so replaced the light....also had the blue blob issue but lived with it....the other day was watching an it shut down completely.......green light flashed red and now won't fire up....was wondering if its time to bury the old girl....has been a grea tv but it was purchased new in 03...so can't really complain about its sevice....

Papethova

05-05-12, 11:27 AM

Im confused about a few things.

I have the TV hooked up to cable without a box just a coaxial into the back. Its showing the channels incorrectly (ie channel 25 on this set is Histroy channel but on my other sets its something diff). Also, it wont show channels above 25... ESPN should be 35 but I get snow.

I have tried auto program and it doesnt help.

My other issue is in the menu I cannot see Cable on or off. I thought turning it on might fix the channel issue but "cable" is not an option in the menu. Owners manual says it should be.

Anyone know how to fix this?? Thanks in advance.

djrocks66

05-14-12, 02:56 PM

ChuckF.

05-14-12, 06:14 PM

Hello all,

I have a KF50WE610 TV that I bought November 2003. I had some problems when I first got the set and Sony sent me an extra bulb. Last month the original bulb finally blew! I can't believe it lasted that long! I installed the new unopened bulb that Sony sent me back in 2003. The TV started up and everything was OK. Then a couple of days later when I tried to start it I got that buzzing sound and it did not start. After unplugging it a few times and restarting I got it to come on. If it buzzes really quick it wil start up. If the buzz is longer it won't start. I have removed the Lamp and cleaned out the contacts and reseted the cover and door but this has gotten worse now. I cant get it to come on at all. Is this a Lamp problem or Lamp Driver? It is weird that this happened after the old bulb blew. Which it did. We were watching TV when I heard a loud pop and then no screen. Thanks for you help.

Dom

The buzzing is a sound that means the ballast is working. If you get no light it means that either the connection between the lamp and ballast is bad or the lamp is bad.

The ballast has a spark gap device on it, all UHP lamp ballasts do. The 5-15KV used to light the lamp creates the buzzing sound from the spark gap device. You can see the device light up in the dark. It looks like a big white resistor, near where the HV wires come off the ballast.

Sonys go through the light-up sequence three times, each about 20 seconds apart. If no joy it then declares a failure.

Check the backside of the lamp connector as well. It gets hot and eventually can get brittle and fall apart.

djrocks66

05-14-12, 08:16 PM

Hey Chuck, Thanks for responding. When the TV was working properly there was no buzzing sound. The TV would just click and Start up. Is the buzzing sound from the ballast normal or is it arcing off something? It is odd that the TV was working fine when the old Lamp blew and after I changed the Lamp it started to do the buzzing. I heard there is a class action suit against Sony for these TV's. After I removed the door that covers the Lamp housing I noticed it was melting and warping. Do you think I should call Sony or is the set too old? I can always change the ballast if that is what it is. When the TV works the picture is still excellent. I would hate to trash the set. Thanks for your time.

robla64

05-14-12, 08:21 PM

Does anyone use a CableCard in this GWIII set. I have an M card and cant seem to get it paired. I think the problem is on Comcast's end. This set was designed for a S card ... but the info from Cable labs is that the M card is backward compatible.
Can anyone confirm using an M card?

ChuckF.

05-14-12, 08:37 PM