JudderTest software [Text View]

arca

10-30-03, 02:58 AM

Originally posted by PeterAM
Since I upgraded my HTPC a while ago, I've been getting pretty much stutter-free DVD playback. Running your test confirmed this - the bar moves across the screen (PJ is a JVC G150) with no tearing or judder at a rendering rate of 60.02 Hz.

If your computer is set at 60.02Hz the bar will be rendered at 60.02 fps and be judder-free both on your monitor and your projector. But, a DVD is 24 fps and will be converted to 60.02Hz before leaving your gfx card. Judder will be introduced before the DVD frames even reach the projector! The tool is not fixed at 24 fps like a DVD - this can only be simulated by setting a refresh-rate of 72Hz or another multiple of 24 and then using the speed divider as described above. Perhaps I should include a fixed 24 fps option in the next version... although my goal was to find a path from DVD to projector panel that avoids any time-domain conversions.

Question - is the processing path used by your test the same as used for DVD playback (I use TT)?

The processing path is different in two respects:
1) in the tool the frames are fixed by refesh rate and multiplier/divider setting and not always 24 fps,
2) the tool renders in RGB into the ordinary graphics memory while DVD players usually renders in YUV into a special overlay surface. The overlay is handled specially by the graphics card but ultimately converted to RGB and combined with the ordinary graphics memory before the result is output to your display device. So this difference has no effect in the time domain (refresh rates and fps), but there is a scaling step when the overlay is combined with the ordinary graphics memory which can soften the DVD frames and blur the judder. - But that's why I wrote this tool, to reveal the judder. :)

arca

10-30-03, 03:02 AM

Originally posted by vairulez
could you make the same thing with a bar that moves at 25 pixels/ second and at 30 pixels/second for Pal users ?

You do this by altering your computer's refresh rate. If you set it at 75Hz and enter 3 as a speed divider, the bar will move at 25 pixels/second. If this is judder-free on your projector, PAL DVD's should be judder-free too.

GladHeAteHer

10-30-03, 03:18 AM

I know what you're saying about the PC displaying the 768x576 DVD on a 1024x768 screen at 1280x960, but it does seem to hide the judder very well. Text is still easily readable. The usual 576 lines of the DVD you can see on the screen are now almost unseeable. I think I will leave these settings as my standard setup now.

Kram Sacul

10-31-03, 06:29 AM

I don't understand this program. Whatever the number I set in the bar speed divider box it erases whatever is in the bar speed multiplier box.

arca

10-31-03, 06:43 AM

Originally posted by Kram Sacul
I don't understand this program. Whatever the number I set in the bar speed divider box it erases whatever is in the bar speed multiplier box.

That's right. It's two different ways of specifying bar speed, either you use the multiplier, or the divider:

bar speed = refreshrate * multiplier
or
bar speed = refreshrate / divider

This guarantees that the tool does not introduce judder on it's own.

crisscross

10-31-03, 07:32 AM

Is there any way to make this program run on a secondary display?
It will only execute on my primary display (computer monitor) and I would like to use it on my secondary (crt proj).

arca

10-31-03, 04:13 PM

crisscross or someone with multiple displays,

could you please see if v0.3 will render to your secondary display.

summit3907

10-31-03, 04:56 PM

i second the request to have a 24 fps setting without having to change the monitor frequency. i am running my htpc to a crt display, and thus cant set it to 72 hz without losing sync. also, when i run it, about 10% of the top of the line is missing. is that normal or part of a sync issue?

powerstirp currently shows 59.938 hz and i get occasional tearing on dvds which i would love to get rid of.

thanks,
k

crisscross

10-31-03, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by arca
crisscross or someone with multiple displays,

could you please see if v0.3 will render to your secondary display.

No, I am sorry to say that the program will not execute. It gives me a window:
Error: Åtgärden har slutförts (swedish) and then a window:
Runtime error! Program:...xxx\JudderTest.exe
This application has requested the Runtime to terminate it in an unusual way. Please contact the applications support team for more information.

GladHeAteHer

10-31-03, 08:29 PM

It's always worked on both my displays without a problem . I'm using Direct X 9 VMR9 and a Radeon 9600pro VIVO. I have dual monitors running, primary is a projector, secondary is a CRT monitor. They are running cloned.

crisscross

10-31-03, 10:52 PM

Of course it would run in clone mode, but it will not work if you have "dualview".
Clone mode is a no go for me as I have my crt at 848*480*50HZ and that is not someting I would like to, or even could, run my primary monitor in. Clone mode for nvidia cards equals the same resolution on both displays.
Havent tried vmr9 though.

It looks like Arca in version 0.3 is close to the solution but the program shuts down for some reason.

GladHeAteHer

10-31-03, 11:52 PM

OK, IC. I haven't tried it in dual view. I have to run the same resolution on both monitors in clone mode with my setup, but I can run different refresh rates.

arca

11-01-03, 02:01 AM

crisscross, does it crash at startup or when you hit RUN? I've uploaded another attempt at multiple displays (same filename, v0.3). I only have one myself - will get my 9800 pro next week.

summit3907, I don't know why you lose the top 10% of the bar. Are you running multiple displays too?

crisscross

11-01-03, 04:39 AM

Originally posted by arca
crisscross, does it crash at startup or when you hit RUN? I've uploaded another attempt at multiple displays (same filename, v0.3). I only have one myself - will get my 9800 pro next week.

summit3907, I don't know why you lose the top 10% of the bar. Are you running multiple displays too?

It crashes when I hit run. In the latest version i have three choices in the dropdown menu: Primary monitor, Geforce 4600Ti and Geforce 4600Ti.
When I choose Primary monitor it works as it should on my primary monitor. When I choose the first Geforce 4600Ti and hit run the program just freezes and I have to close it manually (ctrl-alt-del), when I choose the second Geforce4600Ti I get the same error as I described in my previous post.
Thanx for your effort in trying to fix this. I really appreciate it/C

Burrito

11-01-03, 11:24 AM

Thank, thank you, thank you!

I'm looking for a program that easily shows motion artifacts on digital display devices for years now!
I knew about the problems of frame rate conversion in projectors over VGA/DVI inputs but i am no programmer to write myself a program to check easily for these problems.

I even wrote the author of the famous HTPC tool "ReClock Filter", Olivier 'Ogo' Gosseaume about my thoughts on Sept. 28th:

>> I have a idea about a small but very useful program to detect
>> stutter/tearing/framedrops on LCD/DLP Beamers, TFT-Monitors and Plasma
>> Displays that are used for PC playback (VGA or DVI). It would work great
>> with ReClock to ensure there is no "motion-problem" in the entire video
>> chain. It's a very simple program/idea and would give you no headache!
Are
>> you interested?

> Yes i'm curious ! Is it something like my "tearing test" ?

Hi Ogo,

yes, it is something like your tearing test, but much simpler!

ReClock makes shure that the video played back is in sync with the refresh
rate of the graphics card.
The program i imagine - let's call it VGAMotionTester or short VMT as a
project name - would verify the smoothness of playback at a choosen refresh
rate from the graphics card to a LCD/DLP/LCOS Beamer, LCD-TFT or Plasma
Display - in short every DIGITAL output device possible. VMT would indeed be
useless for CRT drived (analog) devices, because it would test whether the
output device syncs itself properly to the incoming VGA/DVI signal or - if
this is not the case - what the resulting motion artefacts look like on
screen (tearing or stuttering).

How would VMT look like?
Well, the most important thing VMT has to do is to show a line or pendulum
on screen that moves _in sync_ with the refresh rate of the graphics card. I
dont know whether Direct3D/OpenGL or DirectDraw are better suited for this
task. Maybe it could even be done in Flash, although C++ would be "a little"
more flexible choice than flash. ;)
If VMT would show stutter/tearing on a CRT device, it would be completely
useless. The output has to be completely smooth on a CRT!

As a fact, even Windows doesnt sync its window actions against the refresh
rate! Move a window with the left/right keys or the mouse to see tearing.
Scroll a text in Internet Explorer to see tearing! *shakinghead*

What VMT should be like:
-It should be small, run full screen or maximized and be easy to use.
-It should display moving lines, pendulums and wheels for
vertical/horizontal testing.
-The speed of the displayed moving parts should be adjustable
-The detected refresh rate should be displayed.
-A warning message should be displayed once to shut down any background
tasks running
-A big warning message should be displayed if 100% CPU utilization are
reached during testing ("Stutter free testing impossible with running
background tasks" or something)
-The Documentation or/and in-program-help should explain the different
motion artifacts and how they look. The difference between tearing, micro-
and macrostutter should be explained.
-A Wizard would be interesing, to guide the user through the program with
explanations what he should/should not see on his display device.
-Most importandly: Tell the user that he will never have perfect smooth
playback with ReClock if VMT gives him stutters/tearing with his display
device. This one is important to be understood by the user!!

This are just ideas. Do whatever you want with them. They dont have to be
implemented in the first release! :D

I think there would be a massive interest in such a program that is
distributed as freeware for private use. I'd say review magazines should
have to pay for it, hehe...
HTPC is coming - BIGTIME *woohoo*

The users see that the playback from their HTPC to their display isnt
perfect in most cases, but they dont know what's really wrong. They don't
know exactly what they want from the industry. And the industry listens
really, really intensely what the consumers want recently (just look at mp3
and DivX playback in DVD Players!)
If the consumers know what they want - no motion problems over VGA/DVI
inputs - they can tell their needs to the industry which, in turn, will
(hopefully) fix the problems in their products!

There is already one program that does what i want (or at least parts of
what i want - had no chance to see it yet in action):
*ulr nuked, google for "DisplayMate"*
The problem with this program is the cost! "Retail Price is $795" *cough,
cough*

I would say VMT would be the perfect addition to ReClock - and much easier
to implement, imho!
Maybe you are interested to dedicate your time to such a project? I would do
it myself, but im no programmer.
Im just another home theater freak and i say:

If we want to do it digitally, why not do it perfect?

With best regards,
Burrito

Ogo seems pretty busy right now so i got no reply till today...

Feel free to pick up any of my ideas to implement them into your program!

Regards,
Burrito

summit3907

11-01-03, 05:51 PM

arca,

only running one monitor. this happens on both laptop and htpc.

k

arca

11-02-03, 02:39 AM

Originally posted by Burrito
Thank, thank you, thank you!

I'm looking for a program that easily shows motion artifacts on digital display devices for years now!

We were obviously thinking the exact same thing! I agree with everything you suggested to Ogo. My goal is to make users aware, then make reviewers aware and finally make the industry put more effort into fixing these problems. Big goals for a 28kB program. :)

Anyone tried JudderTest on a DLP with a bar size of 1? That should make for a good rainbow test...

arca

11-02-03, 03:16 AM

Originally posted by crisscross
It crashes when I hit run. In the latest version i have three choices in the dropdown menu: Primary monitor, Geforce 4600Ti and Geforce 4600Ti.
When I choose Primary monitor it works as it should on my primary monitor. When I choose the first Geforce 4600Ti and hit run the program just freezes and I have to close it manually (ctrl-alt-del), when I choose the second Geforce4600Ti I get the same error as I described in my previous post.
Thanx for your effort in trying to fix this. I really appreciate it/C

I'm afraid this will have to wait until next weekend at least. I'm working blind as it is. When I have put together my new computer it will be easy for me to debug.

arca

11-02-03, 03:20 AM

Originally posted by summit3907
only running one monitor. this happens on both laptop and htpc.

I have added a thin border around the screen. Could you download again and see if this border is visible all around? Thanks.

crisscross

11-02-03, 07:47 AM

Originally posted by arca
I'm afraid this will have to wait until next weekend at least. I'm working blind as it is. When I have put together my new computer it will be easy for me to debug.
Ok, thanks for your efforts.

summit3907

11-02-03, 12:38 PM

arca,

still the same issue. when i run it now, about 15% of the left and right border at the top is missing, corresponding to where the bar is blank. also, the top border is only present for the left 1/3 of the screen, and then again for about 10 pixels in the upper right corner. this is the same on both of my machines. laptop runs an ati mobility 7500 at 1024x768 and htpc is a radeon 7200 le at 848x480.

kevin

arca

11-02-03, 01:24 PM

That's weird. If you set the background color to say green, do those missing areas appear as green or black?

summit3907

11-02-03, 01:32 PM

they appear as green

arca

11-02-03, 04:49 PM

Drawing routine completely rewritten. Any improvement for you, summit3907?

summit3907

11-03-03, 03:55 PM

fixed on laptop. will try at home on htpc. hope you didnt spend too much time on that! i still would love something to spit out a constant frames per second independent of the refresh rate.

k

chill

11-05-03, 03:13 AM

@arca

thanx a lot for this tool!

i managed to reduce tearing with my eiki lc xga 971. my powerstrip setting is at 72,333 hz. now a can see a tearing stripe that takes about 2 min to run thru the whole picture.
i am still sad about this, as i did not find a workaround or option yet to fix the hz to a number where there is no tearing at all with my beamer.
powerstrip would need a 4th number after the comma to fix it, imho.

my idea is that there is hopefully another tool or possibility which i don´t know yet that fixes this tearing area to a point that is on the the top or bottom of the picture cause my beamer is 4:3 and when i watch a movie in 16:9 i would see no more tering at all if this moving tering area would be fixed to a certain place and is not moving anymore

any ideas on this?

cheers
chill

Joakim Björn

11-05-03, 02:20 PM

I can't figure out how to use this program? I only watch PAL DVD's and my refresh frequency setting is now 75Hz. But my DVD's are not running very smooth on my projector.

I'm not sure if I'm doing right but I enter "3" in the "divider" field (75/3=25 för PAL??). When i hit RUN i can see the white bar moving but it has a flashing rectangle in the middle. And the result is

Rendered frames/sec on last run : 50 (or something near 50)

But what am I doing now? This tells me nothing??

arca

11-05-03, 03:44 PM

Joakim Björn, I replied to your PM.

LET ME CLARIFY TO EVERYONE: the goal of the JudderTest is to find a projector model which handles 48/50Hz input correctly, that is without judder. The sad fact is that the industry does not specify what models has a fixed native refresh-rate. They say their projectors accept 48 and 50Hz, but they don't say that it will be converted and that you can't watch 48/50Hz without judder. JudderTest will let us as a community reveal the truth and we can avoid buying projectors plagued with 48/50Hz judder.

- JudderTest will only reveal the problem, not fix the problem!

My wish is for people to report what their projector model is and their findings using JudderTest at various refresh-rates (48, 50, 72, 75). Use it as a review tool.

Chris Young

11-05-03, 07:11 PM

Hi,

I tried this program on my work computer (17" CRT)set it @ different rates (Hz) and tried to see what the program was trying to display. I saw the line in many different ways. I took notes and ran the test @ home. I the compared it to my HTPC setup and found that my settings I already had setup @ 71.999Hz in Powerstrip @ 1280X960 the line was smooth the whole way. I changed the width of it from 1 to 30 with no change in smoothness. At the end of the run it displayed 72.00 to 72.05 frames per second with a divider of 3. Is this correct in the way I'm doing this? Am I missing something?

Thanks,
Chris

arca

11-06-03, 01:18 AM

Originally posted by Chris Young
I the compared it to my HTPC setup and found that my settings I already had setup @ 71.999Hz in Powerstrip @ 1280X960 the line was smooth the whole way. I changed the width of it from 1 to 30 with no change in smoothness. At the end of the run it displayed 72.00 to 72.05 frames per second with a divider of 3. Is this correct in the way I'm doing this? Am I missing something?

Two different artifacts have been discussed in this thread. Judder was my primary concern which is revealed as the bar not scrolling smoothly from left to right.

Then some have used the tool for tearing issues as well, which is seen as the bar not being a single straight bar, but split in two or more pieces where some piece may be slightly ahead.

The reported FPS between 72.00 and 72.05 is alright, the longer you run the more accurate the value will be. As long as it's only off on the decimals you're not losing noticably many frames (if any). If you have a slow computer and forget to turn off your mp3-player for example, the reported FPS may be below 70 and the missing frames will cause the bar to judder.

If you don't have judder nor tearing on your HTPC at 72Hz, I'm curious what projector you're using??

s.morris

11-06-03, 02:19 AM

Hi arca

If i use the link at the beginning of this thread, to down load your program will i be getting the latest version

Steve

arca

11-06-03, 03:00 AM

Yes, I always put the latest version in the first post.

pcgeek

11-06-03, 02:30 PM

It's probably worth noting that this is only for digital projectors. Anyone running with a CRT shouldn't expect to see anything since it will sync directly to your output signal and doesn't do any conversion.

Chris Young

11-06-03, 09:09 PM

Hi Arca,

It was listed and the bottom of my post as I should have put it in the post to start with.
This is the Projector I'm using it's a 9" CRT PJ

Ampro 4200gx with HTPC, Mike Parker MP-1 Mod on a ATi 9500Pro

Thanks,
Chris

arca

11-07-03, 03:21 AM

Chris,

I see. Lucky you. Don't downgrade to digital just yet. ;)

Orangelo

11-07-03, 09:16 AM

I think I should have included a couple of standard DLLs (I always forget them!). If anyone's having problem even starting the tool, let me know...

Worked fine so far but on a newly ghosted Windows XP it does not even start... any clue?

Darrel Johansen

11-07-03, 09:28 AM

I've tried this on three machines. Only one worked. Unfortunately my HTPC was one that did not work. All machines are running Windows XP. The HTPC is not set for automatic updates and is not usually connected to the internet. The other two have all current updates. The one that works is a desktop 1.7 GHz with a flat panel LCD display. My laptop does not work either.

It would be nice to know if it's just a DLL issue, because I've obviously got what I need on one PC, but not on my HTPC.

arca

11-07-03, 12:56 PM

Sorry about that. Probably the DLLs you are missing are MFC42.DLL and MSVCRT.DLL. I'll attach them in this post and the following post. Install them in the System folder or the System32 folder. The "official" release of JudderTest (version 1.0) will have them included.

arca

11-07-03, 12:58 PM

...and MSVCRT.DLL...

Orangelo

11-07-03, 03:09 PM

Thanks for the effort, arca, but that does not seem to be the cause... both DLLs were already present in my system32 folder. Never mind... it will end up working, magically :D as usual

Burrito

11-15-03, 11:18 AM

This is, without a doubt, the "HTPC TOOL OF THE YEAR"!

Why ist this thread so slow/silent?

Don't people get what this program really is for? *sigh*

rubent

11-16-03, 05:59 AM

Is it supposed to automatically detect the refresh rate?, becasue I see no where to enter it. The program executes fine on both my gaming computer and my HTPC but on both machines it renders at over 1000fps. It appears to not know the correct refresh rate. Both machines run ATI cards one a 9500 pro and the other a 8500, and there both Athlon XP's.

I just got a new projector and I want to figure out what the native refresh rate of it is.

arca

11-17-03, 03:32 AM

Originally posted by Burrito
This is, without a doubt, the "HTPC TOOL OF THE YEAR"!

Why ist this thread so slow/silent?

Don't people get what this program really is for? *sigh*

Thanks. :) Although I'm happy some have minimized tearing issues with the help of JudderTest, I did expect more talk about judder and different projector models.

Maybe people are too sad to talk after realizing their projector is juddering and there's no cure for them?

Maybe the bar is too simple and boring, maybe it should be a nude lady walking across the screen?

arca

11-17-03, 03:42 AM

Originally posted by rubent
Is it supposed to automatically detect the refresh rate?, becasue I see no where to enter it. The program executes fine on both my gaming computer and my HTPC but on both machines it renders at over 1000fps. It appears to not know the correct refresh rate. Both machines run ATI cards one a 9500 pro and the other a 8500, and there both Athlon XP's.

I just got a new projector and I want to figure out what the native refresh rate of it is.

1000? It does not actually detect the refresh rate, it just calls DirectX to sync to the vertical blanking. There is an option in your video settings to enable/disable syncing to the vertical refresh rate. I'm not sure what the exact name is. It sounds like this is may be disabled on your computers.

Does the bar move very fast across the screen? It should move slowly.

Figuring out your projector's native refresh rate is a matter of trying different rates in Powerstrip until you find one that does not judder.

Atalan

11-21-03, 03:02 AM

Thanks for this great program. I used it on my HTPC with my PLV-Z2 at 1280x720@50,000Hz. Absolutely no tearing, the bar is running smooth. I did test with 48Hz and there was tearing evident. Still, since I view mostly PAL material and can use Reclock to Speed-Up NTSC film to 25Hz its working perfect for me.

I noticed two things:

1) After I once booted with the Projector not attached, the bar was moving at top speed, obviously, the VSync detection did not work. Re-registering the Monitor Driver with the projector attached fixed this.

2) Initially, I got some stutter even with real-time priority, and less then 50 fps were displayed. I had to dieable both VNC and my Virus checker to (nearly) eliminate this. Video playback, also using the build-in juder test bar of Reclock, was smooth, however.

Atalan

arca

11-21-03, 07:48 AM

Atalan,

are you using the latest version of JudderTest? It should be very easy on the CPU. I'm excited to hear that PLV-Z2 does not judder at 50Hz!

Burrito

11-21-03, 11:16 AM

According to Cine4Home.de, the Sanyo PLV-Z2 is judder-free with 50Hz over analog RGBHV input with the following parameters:

Fine sync. 14
Tracking 1648
Horizontal 263
Vertikal 26
Clamp 3
Display area H 1280
Display area V 720

DVI is also judder free at PAL resolutions, but only at 1024x576p with internal scaling.

Please post your results! Who is doing a database?

arca

11-22-03, 03:14 AM

I plan to keep a public database of results available. Post in this thread for the time being.

GladHeAteHer

11-22-03, 04:10 AM

Once again, great tool Arca. I've been using this for several weeks now. I have got powerstrip running the refresh rate faultlessly, but unfortunately seeing as all of my DVD's are in PAL, I have judder. I'd like to quote these figures for your database.

Projector: Infocus LP250
Native Resolution: 1024x768 4:3
Best Refresh Rate: 62.156Hz

Best Powerstrip settings found:
Active lines: 768
Front porch lines: 3
Sync Lines: 5
Back Porch lines: 60
Total lines: 836

I've decided to mount a mission to see if it's possible to change a digital projectors native refresh rate (might be as simple as a variable resistor on one of the boards). I will post anything I find out.

Pootle

11-23-03, 03:39 AM

I realise they don't make this one any more, but since not many have posted detailed results, I thought I'd post the results anyway.

I've had a go with this as I do get slight tearing on DVD playing, but strangely not when watching digital TV.

Running this program, I never see the slightest hint of tearing, and at best it is to my eyes very smooth, although I wouldn't say it is absolutely perfect.

The bar doesn't give the appearance of perfectly smooth motion, but there is no obvious judder at the frequencies that work well.

I am wondering if it would be more realistic to smooth the edges of the bar slightly, rather than the very sharp edge that it has, which would be more representative

100Hz best overall setting
100Hz div 4 appears just as good
90 Hz OK
85 Hz nearly OK, obvious hiccup every 4 - 5 seconds
75 Hz slight hiccups about 3 or 4 per second
72 Hz slight hiccup about 2 per second
70 Hz slight hiccup every 3 seconds
60 Hz OK

I don't run powerstrip, so these are the only frequencies on offer.

Radeon 9500 on Athlon / Asus based PC

arca

11-24-03, 02:36 AM

Pootle,

thanks for your results. Older projectors are welcome too. It would be interesting to see 50Hz on the PLV-30 (and PLV-70) since 100Hz is ok.

About smoothing edges and about simulating 24fps that some have requested, this would defeat the purpose of the tool. I wrote the tool to avoid things like smoothing and computer-side frame-rate conversions. We need one tool for revealing the projector's judder as best as possible so we can judge the problem. Smoothing and other means for concealing the problem is for DVD-player software to implement - that's where you don't want to see judder.

konfucius

11-24-03, 03:30 AM

I'm not shure I get this, when I run it on my pc that is connected to a LT150z (DLP) at 1024x768@60Hz I dont see any judder or stutter.

60Hz should be the internal speed of this projector.

I usually watch PAL movies ( 25 fps, live in PAL land), what values should i fill in?

Though it shows the rainbow effect in a nice way ;-)

Atalan

11-24-03, 04:20 AM

@arca

I used V0.3 for my tests. It was no problem to clearly see all the effects, and with Virus Scan etc. turned off it worked without stuttering. The tearing and stuttering which was very obvious on my Philips Monroe, at 50 Hz, had completely disappeared on the Z2 (1280x720@50Hz, RGB analog).

Since I own some few NTSC discs, I tried 48Hz and 72Hz in the same resolution, but this showed alot of tearing so it is clearly not a good choice for the Z2. Since 60Hz progressive would also be a problem because its not an even multiple of the 24Hz the material was filmed in (the reason 3:2 pulldown is used for NTSC, after all), I use Reclock to do a speedup of the DVD to 25Hz . I use analog Audio from my HTPC, so Reclock can do a audio speedup (with the typical half-tone pitching included, which I am used to). Great, smooth motion, and much better than having the tearing in any case.

Atalan

arca

11-24-03, 09:00 AM

Originally posted by konfucius
I usually watch PAL movies ( 25 fps, live in PAL land), what values should i fill in?

You should change your desktop to 50/75/100Hz first (use Powerstrip to set it accurately), then set the speed divider to 2, 3 or 4 respectively to get a 25 fps output.

Though it shows the rainbow effect in a nice way ;-)

I'm sure! :D

timl

11-24-03, 10:07 AM

- 47.96Hz judders and tears
- 50Hz ok
- 60Hz ok
- 75Hz judders and tears

Thanks alot for that. Very interesting.

/Tim

gabbe

11-25-03, 03:28 AM

arca,
Thanks for a good tool, but I cant use it!?!

Ive tested on my 2 different computers (htpc with ATI AIW 9000 Pro and notebook with inbuilt video). Boths with Win XP installed from formated hdd (very little s/w installed).
Ive copied MFC42.DLL and the MSVCRT.DLL to system folder.
When I start juddertest (V0.4) I do get the settings window, but when I hit "run" the computers just hangs and the only recover is to do a hard reset. It works well on my computer at work.
Can it be some more file Im missing?? That users normaly gets installed by another s/w.
Is it possibile for You to compile a "stand alone" version without the need of the run time dll's. I know its possible in Borland C++ Builder.
thanks

konfucius

11-25-03, 06:08 AM

gabbe

I have the same problem, but if I switch to "primary display" in the dropdown box it works fine for me.

arca

11-25-03, 07:06 AM

Yes, that sounds like a display device bug. I have my 9800 pro now and will fix this the coming days. I had no way to debug it with my old card.

gabbe

11-25-03, 03:31 PM

konfucius and arca,
thank You, now it works...

My PLV-Z2 is totaly judderfree, completly smoth with DVI-A (analoge=VGA).
50 Hz 1280x720 with the settings above.

But with 1280x720 50Hz DVI-D its alot of judder and other "hickups".

Im satisfied to use the VGA input on the Z2. The picture is GOOD!!!

regards

konfucius

11-28-03, 03:30 AM

I tried this on my Nec LT150z (DLP):

50Hz > Lot's of judder
60Hz > No judder
75Hz > Almost no judder
100Hz > Little judder
120Hz > Pretty good, little judder.

So I concentrated on fineadjusting around 60Hz, but could not get it any better than it already was (no judder), no change for me.

The LT150z has an internal freq of 60Hz even though i run it on 230V@50Hz, so I see a little micorstuttering in pans when I watch PAL movies.

Chaz.ca

12-03-03, 09:44 PM

Arca How is your Public Database coming ? Would this thread contain the only projector results or do you have more info ?

arca

12-04-03, 12:49 AM

It's going slow. What's in this thread is all I have. Many are downloading the tool, but few are reporting. I think this will change with version 1.0. It'll have built-in reporting and the database will be available on the web.

Mercer

12-04-03, 09:47 AM

Tried your software with my Sony HS-20, tried two screen-modes:
1368x768/56Hz and 1280x768/60 Hz. Both showed perfect "judderfree" pans from left to right. Would be cool to see up/down pans as well.

PS! Tried the program without Powerstrip running at first, and the machine hung. Then I started powerstrip, verified that V-sync was enables, and tried again, now the program worked perfectly.

Regards,
Tore K.

arca

12-04-03, 10:41 AM

Mercer,

Did you try 48/72Hz or 50/75Hz?

I should check for enabled V-sync.

Mercer

12-04-03, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by arca
Mercer,

Did you try 48/72Hz or 50/75Hz?

I should check for enabled V-sync.

No, the HS-20 can't do 72Hz except in 800x600. So it's up to the DVD player program to fit the best number of frames into 56 frames pr. second.

1024x768 supports both 75Hz and 72 Hz, but still not a resolution I want to use.

Regards,
Tore K.

Eiffel

12-05-03, 09:34 PM

Here are some findings on my Sony 10HT (1386*768 native LCD projector)... some of them are a little bit strange:

Feeding the projector a 1080i signal at either 48Hz (fH: 27.0 kHz, fV: 48.0Hz), 50Hz (28.13/50) or 60Hz (33.75/60), the bar moves smoothly. There is some significant horizontal flicker, which is to be expected at the 24 and 25 Hz refresh rates, but this is not an issue with video thankfully. I'm guessing that the scaler, which can't be completely bypassed explains these good results.

There is always some slight jerkiness when I feed the projector an XGA -1024x768 signal (I wasn't expecting this)... I didn't try every possible refresh rate, but it is there at 56Hz, 60.009Hz, 59.999Hz, 70, 72 and 75 Hz... more experimentation might yield success, although I rarely watch video at this resolution.

Eiffel

arca

12-11-03, 02:19 PM

I have uploaded a new beta (0.5) with support for multiple displays and some glaring bugs fixed. MFC42 is linked statically and should not be needed as a DLL anymore.

Fredrik

12-30-03, 09:13 PM

This program is quite usefull. ( Tack så mycket Arca...tror jag ;) )

Don't know if it's applicable to my setup but it sure show some intersting results.
I use at the moment an HTPC with a Ati 9700Pro to my CRT PJ Barco 808. (haven't tested the software with that yet, will do it later today, it's 04:00 now ;)).

When I try the software on my office PC with an Ati FireGL X1 card (based around the 9700 core) I can see stuttering/judder with a CRT monitor.
I'll admit that I have to try it on my HT setup but I can clearly see the bar not moving smoothly.

If I look slightly off from the bar (not following it) it runs smoothly, if I look at the bar it does not.
I've had this problem with my HTPC and it's that I can't get rid of the stutters.
So the million dollar question is if I'm soo sensitive to it that I can see it even with a monitor/pj that doesn't have a fixed rate ?
E.g. like some people are more sensitive to rainbow artifacts then others.
Or if it's an inherit problem with the HTPC all together ?

arca

01-02-04, 11:24 AM

Hej Fredrik,

is JudderTest reporting the same refresh-rate as your display settings?

As for sensitivity, motion on a display is of course not true motion so if the frame-rate is too low, the illusion of motion will break and it will appear as the bar is skipping forward. If (vertical refresh / speed divider) is at least 24, it should look smooth to most people. But I'll admit that sometimes 24 fps looks to me as bordering on jerky. It's like I can't make up my mind, "is this really smooth or not?"

jfrocke

02-27-04, 10:05 AM

When I run this on my CRT monitor I get a perfectly clean image, even if I speed up the bar by 10x.

When I run it on my plasma via DVI (same video card) it is clean at normal speed but as I increase the speed the bar gets blurred at each edge (sort of a blue halo on one side and orange on the other).

What does this mean???

StooMonster

02-27-04, 03:15 PM

My plasma give me 48Hz, 50Hz and 60hz without any sign of judder at all; smoothest scrolling bar you can imagine on these three inputs.

However, some new plasmas have 100Hz and 120Hz buffers, so the literature says.

How can one know if 75Hz's judder is caused by being downed to 60Hz or upped to 100Hz? e.g. if I run a 120Hz signal to my plasma the line is just as smooth as 60Hz.

I have a proposal: alternate image on alternate frame. Perhaps solid bar on odd frames and one made of horizontal lines (alternate one black and one white) for the even frames; or even frames one colour and odd frames another.

The result would show flicker between the two images (or colours) if display is upping to 120Hz; whereas if the screen is really 60Hz it would display either image (or colour) only, solidly with no flicker.

StooMonster

arca

02-27-04, 04:24 PM

jfrocke, I don't know anything about plasmas, sorry. But what you're seeing is not caused by JudderTest.

StooMonster, that's a good suggestion. It could be useful on digital projectors too for finding the true native resolution. Some LCD/LCOS projectors are said to support 72Hz which I don't see how they can display without skipping frames. I'm also thinking about a better tearing-test.

StooMonster

02-27-04, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by arca
StooMonster, that's a good suggestion. It could be useful on digital projectors too for finding the true native resolution. Some LCD/LCOS projectors are said to support 72Hz which I don't see how they can display without skipping frames. I'm also thinking about a better tearing-test.
Cheers, thanks for the cool bit of software.

Another suggestion: how about displaying in a corner (or anywhere) the Refresh Rate that JudderTest thinks it's running in?

StooMonster

arca

02-28-04, 02:48 AM

Absolutely. The next version will have more feedback to the user and will be better integrated with PowerStrip. Ideally the video timings could be fine-tuned while the test is running, with no need to switch back and forth between PowerStrip and JudderTest.

pthio

03-17-04, 07:57 AM

arca, where can I download your last release from ?
Is it useful to test the efficiency of reclock (1.4 release) to transform PAL 25 fps into 60 Hz (1280 x 720) digital DVI output on my PC (to feed a PLV-Z2).
What should be the proper setting of juddertest ?
Thanks

jcase

03-17-04, 02:26 PM

You can download the software from the first post in this thread. I' ve run it on my office pc but want to load it up on my HTPC connected to a Sharp 12K

I'll report back my results.

Thanks for the tool arca

arca

03-17-04, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by pthio
arca, where can I download your last release from ?
Is it useful to test the efficiency of reclock (1.4 release) to transform PAL 25 fps into 60 Hz (1280 x 720) digital DVI output on my PC (to feed a PLV-Z2).
What should be the proper setting of juddertest ?
Thanks

There's a much improved version coming soon. Maybe after the coming weekend.

JudderTest is really only useful to test the performance of the projector itself. With any software player you have at least two potential sources of judder: the software and the projector. It should always be a benefit if you can eliminate one source.

With JudderTest you can find a sweetspot refresh rate where your projector doesn't introduce judder. Finding this sweetspot will be easier in the next version. Now you have to go back and forth between JudderTest and PowerStrip and try different timings.

Mark Rejhon

03-17-04, 05:59 PM

Excellent tool, perfect for testing display tearing without needing any other software. (an open source DirectShow filter called 'Reclock' has this exact same utility built in, but for video playback only)

I suggest, however, a speed multiplier of about 10 or so, for testing for tearing issues.

acra - if you run 'Reclock' as a filter in your Zoom DVD player, you have a DirectShow version of JudderTest and you can test for judder in DVD playback with a moving bar at 24fps superimposed on top of your DVD!

However, using JudderTest (to solve display refresh rate issues, tearing issues) combined with using the moving bar in the 'Reclock' utility in a DVD player (to solve software DVD judder issues), can help you get DVD framerate nirvana!

Mark Rejhon

03-17-04, 06:01 PM

>>When I run it on my plasma via DVI (same video card) it is clean at normal speed but as I increase the speed the bar gets blurred at each edge (sort of a blue halo on one side and orange on the other).

Flickerfree displays will always blur a moving bar such as JudderTest (LCD, DLP, DILA, plasma). Flickerfree displays are also called sample-and-hold displays (actually, DLP and plasma actually flicker, but at really high frequencies at the per-pixel level).

Sample-and-hold (flickerfree) displays -- That's why many people notice HDTV football during fast motion is MUCH sharper on CRT HDTV's than on plasma/LCD/DLP/DILA. Same principle.

Part of this is due to the pixel response speed of the display. However, even if the response speed of a flickerfree display was infinitely fast (i.e. 0.00001 ms), instantaneous samples for the eye (flicker) tends to enhance temporal motion perception.

By the way, did you know I wrote something similiar to JudderTest in year 1992? Although for a different purpose (proving that the eye can tell apart 30fps and 60fps). Download my MOTION.ZIP demo from http://www.marky.com/programming/ (my Nostagilia programming section)

Mark Rejhon

03-17-04, 06:29 PM

acra,

I have a feature request. Can you add a frameskip feature or a framerate feature to the moving bar in JudderTest?

That way, it is easy to prove to people that 60fps always looks sharper at 60 Hz than 60fps at 120 Hz on a CRT display. (and conversely 24fps at 48 Hz is always sharper than 24fps at 96 Hz on a CRT display)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3540080

pthio

03-18-04, 01:09 AM

if you run 'Reclock' as a filter in your Zoom DVD player, you have a DirectShow version of JudderTest and you can test for judder in DVD playback with a moving bar at 24fps superimposed on top of your DVD![QUOTE]

pthio

03-18-04, 01:24 AM

Oops. Sorry for the previous post. I'm not so familiar with posting tricks (and with English, being a froggy myself), and just got messed up between "submit" and "review"..:o

I just wanted to quote Mark comment on Reclock tesing moving bar. I agree with Mark upon the strong interest of such a feature. It works perfectly on PAL with 50 Hz refresh rate, but when switching to my 60 Hz frame rate (the Sanyo damned constraint):mad: reclok does not find perfect matching between PAL 25 fps and 60 Hz, and the moving bar is no longer smooth, and can no longer be used to test judder.

To arca : I'm looking forward to using your 1.0 release:)

arca

03-18-04, 02:22 AM

Originally posted by Mark Rejhon
I suggest, however, a speed multiplier of about 10 or so, for testing for tearing issues.
I know what you mean, I have an experimental separate tearing test in the next version. :)

if you run 'Reclock' as a filter in your Zoom DVD player, you have a DirectShow version of JudderTest and you can test for judder in DVD playback with a moving bar at 24fps superimposed on top of your DVD!
I have not tried that. That DirectShow test and JudderTest should complement eachother perfectly: First JudderTest for minimizing judder in the projector, then Reclock for checking the whole chain including playblack software. Nice!

I have a feature request. Can you add a frameskip feature or a framerate feature to the moving bar in JudderTest?
I followed your link. Interesting effect. I never knew about that. Would this effect be obvious even if the bar is only moving one pixel per frame (vs one pixel per two frames)? If so, it should be possible to demonstrate even on the current version of JudderTest: for 60 Hz set multiplier = 1, divider = 1, for 120 Hz set divider = 2.

robertpcx

03-18-04, 08:37 AM

hi;

I have a question or two,

First is there any computer software that will test monitor to determine actual resolution capability for showing DVD movies?

If I have pal movie will I be able to display this DVD movie on my monitor, or do I need some sort of conversion to ntsc first? __ I am using LCD TV/monitor.

Kind regards

robertpcx

Thue

03-18-04, 08:56 AM

Robert-> I do not understand your post. (sort of retarded today - sorry).

robertpcx

03-18-04, 09:06 AM

HI;

I don't really need the first question answered but to clarify, my picture quality using MYHD for viewing DVD movies through VGA input to my LCD/monitor is very good and I was just wondering how good the picture really is.

As to the second question am I able to play PAL DVD's using MYHD as the DVD player?

Mark Rejhon

03-20-04, 12:09 AM

acra,

I followed your link. Interesting effect. I never knew about that. Would this effect be obvious even if the bar is only moving one pixel per frame (vs one pixel per two frames)? If so, it should be possible to demonstrate even on the current version of JudderTest: for 60 Hz set multiplier = 1, divider = 1, for 120 Hz set divider = 2."

It's easier to notice this effect if the bar is moving faster (but not too fast), such as 10 pixels at a time.

Also, remember not to confuse these two separate things I was talking about in that thread:

1. digital display effect (sample-and-hold) of blurring motion: This CAN be done with current version of JudderTest. Just run JudderTest on a CRT computer monitor then on a LCD computer monitor. Everybody can tell the difference in JudderTest, even with fast 10-16ms LCD's. The effect is startlingly obvious with the current version of JudderTest, when comparing side-by-side LCD and CRT. So if this is what you meant, the answer is yes but with a correction to your post: Speed doesn't matter, because the effect is obvious regardless of speed, but much more noticeable at faster speeds such as 10 pixels per second.

2. Comparing fixed-framerate motion (ie 30fps) at different refresh rates 60 Hz or 90 Hz: This CANNOT be done with the current version of JudderTest. I need to do a way to do a fixed framerate. A frameskip feature would solve this problem. Frames must be repeated to notice this effect, and therefore a "frameskip" or "repeat frame" feature is necessary in order to demonstrate the effect. Ideal speed of bar probably would ideally be configured at about one barwidth between frames (about 10 pixels). If this is what you mean, the answer is no.

Mark Rejhon

03-20-04, 12:17 AM

robertpcx

If your LCD TV has a computer input (VGA) then you can just playback computer DVD for the best results.

Computer inputs are always progressive scan (but usually not compatible with component-video progressive scan DVD players). You can playback DVD using a computer-based DVD player, with great results.

Some LCD TV's have great line doublers built in, so you may actually get great results with just using a standard S-Video/Component capable settop DVD player. Your mileage may vary.

You should be able to determine your LCD monitor's exact native resolution from the monitor manual. Failing that, just connect your PC, simply switch between all resolutions until the text "dramatically sharpens itself". When that happens, you've found the native resolution. It's usually obvious when this happens. (Try 640x480, 800x600 and 1024x768 for small 4:3 LCD's, try 848x480, 856x480 for small 16:9 widescreen LCD's. Try 1280x720, 1280x768, 1360x768, 1920x1080, 1920x1200 for large 16:9 widescreen LCD's.) If it is a recent model that has a VGA input, usually the standard modes included with a moden graphics card will match the native resolution, although in some cases PowerStrip will be required. (PowerStrip is a lot more necessary with HDTV sets that don't normally support computer input).

MagnusB

03-20-04, 05:23 AM

Tested my NEC HT1000.
It is perfect for 60Hz but not for any other refresh.
In the manual is says it supports:

Signal Resolution Frequency H. Refresh Rate Dot Clock
( Dots ) ( kHz ) ( Hz ) ( MHz )
VESA 1024 768 35.5 43 Interlaced 44.9
VESA 1024 768 48.363 60 65
VESA 1024 768 56.476 70.07 75
MAC 1024 768 60.241 74.93 80
VESA 1024 768 60.023 75.03 78.75
VESA 1024 768 68.677 85 94.5

I cannot get Powerstrip to give me exactly
VESA 1024 768 60.023 75.03 78.75

Any ideas on how to do it.?

///Magnus

arca

03-20-04, 11:47 PM

It took a long time, but version 1.0 is finally ready.

First the bad news: there's no database for recording test results as was my wish. It turned out to be too much work. We'll just have to share our findings here on the forum, buried in the archive.

The good news:

Integration with PowerStrip. Display timing can be adjusted from JudderTest without flipping back and forth to PowerStrip. You can even adjust the timing while the test is running for immediate feedback.

There are a few more settings to control the rendering. A proper frame rate setting, a separate bar speed setting, etc. You can have as many bars as you wish now, for a greater visual impact. 15 juddering bars is easier to see than one! There's even a skip-setting for Mark Rejhon. :)

There's a help-button describing these settings and the keyboard shortcuts available when tests are running. If the help doesn't launch, there are HTML-pages in the program folder.

There's an experimental buffer test. It's a variation of what I believe StooMonster was asking for. I have no way of testing that myself.

As usual, you can download it from the first page.

Thue

03-21-04, 04:08 AM

Arac-> Great. Just a small bug in the install wizard. It says I can choose to read the readme file or run the program but the option is not available.

arca

03-21-04, 07:32 AM

Ops, dammit. I had some trouble mastering the tool for creating the wizard. There is no readme and the program is available from the start menu.

arca

03-21-04, 07:43 AM

Originally posted by MagnusB
I cannot get Powerstrip to give me exactly
VESA 1024 768 60.023 75.03 78.75

What's the closest you can get? Measured as:
- total horizontal pixels
- total vertical pixels
- pixel clock

videobruce

03-21-04, 09:48 AM

Since there is no apperent web site for this program other than this thread I need to ask some help here.

I get a error message while trying to install this program:
"an error occured durning the move data process: -115"
It makes reference to the 'msvcrt.dll' file in the System32 folder.
I'm running 2k w/sp4
I don't have power strip installed if that matters.

Burrito

03-21-04, 10:08 AM

Thanks for this new version arca!

Hopefully a JudderTest website is coming sometime...

The only downside on the new version is the need to have PowerStrip installed and running. This will confuse a lot of people because they think JudderTest is useless for them when PS isn't installed - which is not the case.

If a PJ judders at 50Hz, it will do so at 51Hz and 49Hz so what do i need PS for then? Imho, its useless to "fine tune" the VGA refresh rate to the internal PJ refresh rate.

The question is: Does the video processing of the PJ _lock_ to the incoming refresh rate or not!? If it does not lock at 50Hz, it won't lock at 49 or 51 either!

I also think that the current installer is worse than having no installer at all. Why does it ask for _two_ directories during install? Why doesn't it remove the program folder/temp folder after uninstall?

People using JT are smart enough to handle a .zip archive i think.

If you really want to have an installer, i strongly suggest using Nullsoft's NSIS: http://nsis.sourceforge.net/home/

I'm sorry that this post sounds so negative. Don't take it personal, i just want that a good software gets better through honest criticism.

Thanks again for your work arca! Soon people will realize how useful this software is to get smooth playback on a PJ+HTPC combination!

arca

03-21-04, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by Burrito
If a PJ judders at 50Hz, it will do so at 51Hz and 49Hz so what do i need PS for then? Imho, its useless to "fine tune" the VGA refresh rate to the internal PJ refresh rate.
Without PS your refresh rate will likely be some odd refresh rate like 50.2, or 60.5 etc. I believe it's common that PJs show artifacts unless fed pretty specific refresh rates. Someone early in the thread was able to reduce tearing by fine-tuning the refresh rate. But sure, it would be useful to at least be able to run a simple test without PS.

I also think that the current installer is worse than having no installer at all. Why does it ask for _two_ directories during install? Why doesn't it remove the program folder/temp folder after uninstall?
The temp folder not being removed is a bug in the self-extracting zip tool I used. The installer does ask for a Program Folder and then just places a shortcut to the EXE, not a program folder, in the start menu. So yes, the installer is a little lame. Videobruce's error is also a show stopper. I'm beginning to think the installer was more hassle than help.

I'm sorry that this post sounds so negative. Don't take it personal, i just want that a good software gets better through honest criticism.

Thanks again for your work arca! Soon people will realize how useful this software is to get smooth playback on a PJ+HTPC combination!
That's ok, thanks for your feedback. :)

arca

03-21-04, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by videobruce
Since there is no apperent web site for this program other than this thread I need to ask some help here.

I get a error message while trying to install this program:
"an error occured durning the move data process: -115"
It makes reference to the 'msvcrt.dll' file in the System32 folder.
I'm running 2k w/sp4
I don't have power strip installed if that matters.

I've ditched the installer. Now there's just a regular zip-archive. You should only have to copy MSVCRT.DLL to System32 unless you already have it.

videobruce

03-22-04, 07:03 AM

Originally posted by Burrito
The only downside on the new version is the need to have PowerStrip installed and running. This will confuse a lot of people because they think JudderTest is useless for them when PS isn't installed - which is not the case.
I also think that the current installer is worse than having no installer at all. Why does it ask for _two_ directories during install? Why doesn't it remove the program folder/temp folder after uninstall?
Where does it say either of these two points?
Nice to know now, I hate to 'bitch' but that does make life harder not knowing this!

MagnusB

03-22-04, 07:46 AM

Hello Arca.

I can get exactly 78750 in dot clock but that gives me 72.290 for refresh and 57.904 kHz scan rate, not 75.03 Hz refresh.

But I doubt the HT1000 can natively sync to 75 Hz or 72Hz for that matter
and that is sad!

///Magnus

arca

03-22-04, 08:32 AM

Originally posted by videobruce
Where does it say either of these two points?
Nice to know now, I hate to 'bitch' but that does make life harder not knowing this!

Chill down. Unzipping by yourself won't remove the temp-folder for you either and the uninstall does remove everything except an empty program files folder. Lots of programs uninstall like that. If you want the last few bytes back, just Delete it. Geez.

GladHeAteHer

03-22-04, 08:44 AM

Good to see your great tool is still going strong and improving all the time. I'm still using my Infocus LP250 at 62.253 with Powerstrip. For anyone who hasn't tried it yet, I've found that the latest version of WinDVD Platinum greatly reduces the judder effect while panning. Maybe they use a better system to compensate for differing display refresh rates to the media frames per second, I don't know, but what I can say is that it is giving me the best results I've found so far and tuned to the right frequency with Juddertest I have no tearing either. (I'm still using your original version Arca!)

canscape

03-23-04, 07:18 PM

Thanks for the great tool. Version 1 is giving me some problems namely I cannot exit the program once I have started a Judder Test. Sometimes it will exit after a ctrl-alt-del but most times not. This is occurring on all three of my home machines that I have tried it on. Would it be possible to add a test run time setting?

I have just tried it out on my Sanyo Z2 at 720p and as near to 45,60 and it is reporting a crazy amount of dropped frames within 30 seconds (up to 132). There is no apparent judder and the bar moves smoothly. Any thoughts? With the test locking up I cannot test as many settings as I would like.

Thanks

arca

03-24-04, 01:01 AM

canscape,

it sounds like you have "wait for vertical sync" turned off in your Direct 3D settings? I should add a check for that.

pthio

03-24-04, 01:46 AM

To arca : May be I'm out of scope, but I would find it great to have a judder test "before" the player. The tearing test bar of reclock is not tuneable and is not smooth on 60 Hz frame rate. It would help a lot to compare the numerous players on my specific configuration, and to tune reclock, once I've tuned my projector with your present Judder test.
Is this a non-sense idea ? Is it acheavable for an expert like you arca
;)

canscape

03-24-04, 09:04 AM

arca, I will check that when I get home tonight. Thanks for the reply.

Burrito

03-24-04, 10:38 AM

Originally posted by canscape
...Version 1 is giving me some problems namely I cannot exit the program once I have started a Judder Test. Sometimes it will exit after a ctrl-alt-del but most times not. This is occurring on all three of my home machines that I have tried it on. Would it be possible to add a test run time setting?
How did you try to exit the program?
The only way to exit the test is by pressing the "Q" key like stated in the help file.

Burrito

03-24-04, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by pthio
May be I'm out of scope, but I would find it great to have a judder test "before" the player. The tearing test bar of reclock is not tuneable and is not smooth on 60 Hz frame rate. It would help a lot to compare the numerous players on my specific configuration, and to tune reclock, once I've tuned my projector with your present Judder test.
To test your player software for introduction of motion artifacts like judder/stutter you dont need any kind of special software.
What you need is a MPEG1/2 test stream that has the right framerate (PAL or NTSC) and is absolutely clean of any motion artifacts. Just play them back on a resolution/refreshrate that is "clean" (verified with JudderTest) on your display device and every judder you see then is introduced by the player/filter/renderer combination in your system!

Appropriate test streams are available on some test DVD's but there are also a few good panning scenes on normal DVD's that can be used.

If someone knows a place to download such test files in PAL/NTSC rates for free, let us know. Maybe someone here could create such files or knows someone who could do it? Should be pretty easy and straightforward...

canscape

03-24-04, 11:34 AM

Burrito, Yes I used the 'Q' key.

Joakim Björn

03-24-04, 12:52 PM

Just wonder if it would be possible to make the program window reziseable?

I am having a 800x450 widescreenresolution on my desktop (800x600 projector) and the program window will not fit in 450. The result is that I can't click on the buttons at the bottom of the window.

Would be really great if you could fix that! ;-)

pthio

03-25-04, 02:10 AM

originally posted by Burrito :
If someone knows a place to download such test files in PAL/NTSC rates for free, let us know. Maybe someone here could create such files or knows someone who could do it? Should be pretty easy and straightforward...
This is exactly my request ! Hope that with such a strong demand (the two of us :rolleyes: ), a good (and expert !) fellow will post us such test files :)

Burrito

03-25-04, 06:08 AM

Originally posted by pthio
This is exactly my request ! Hope that with such a strong demand (the two of us :rolleyes: ), a good (and expert !) fellow will post us such test files :)
There are such testfiles available from Philips to showcase their Trimension(c) technology (PC equivalent of DNM for vector based motion estimation/compensation on software video players).

http://www.trimensiontech.com/index.php?page=downloads.html

The problem with these files is that there is no audio in them and therefore ReClock can't be used! :mad: Without ReClock, such a test is useless because the media framerate isn't locked to the VGA refreshrate.

pthio

03-31-04, 06:23 AM

Originally posted by Burrito
There are such testfiles available from Philips to showcase their Trimension(c) technology (PC equivalent of DNM for vector based motion estimation/compensation on software video players).

http://www.trimensiontech.com/index.php?page=downloads.html

The problem with these files is that there is no audio in them and therefore ReClock can't be used! :mad: Without ReClock, such a test is useless because the media framerate isn't locked to the VGA refreshrate.
Nobody's willing to help us ? :( :(

chill

03-31-04, 07:58 AM

wanted to run judder test with my new ati radeon 9600se plus panasonic ptae 500 connected via dvi.

but everytime i try to start judder test i get a message that it can't get timer settings or something like that.(can't remeber exactely)

with vga connection it worked really fine.

at 1280x720@60,000hz

as i think judder test is a very useful utility, please tell me how to get it to work again.

cheers
chill

arca

03-31-04, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by chill
wanted to run judder test with my new ati radeon 9600se plus panasonic ptae 500 connected via dvi.

but everytime i try to start judder test i get a message that it can't get timer settings or something like that.(can't remeber exactely)

with vga connection it worked really fine.

at 1280x720@60,000hz

as i think judder test is a very useful utility, please tell me how to get it to work again.

cheers
chill

Can you copy the error message and the trace info available in the error dialog?
I have not been able to test with DVI. I plan to remove the PowerStrip requirement, but grew a little tired of spending my weekends coding while you guys get to watch movies!

simon

04-01-04, 08:46 AM

Hi,
It works okay on my primary monitor, but gives this error on my secondary:

Failed to run judder test.
TRACE: void __thiscall CJudderTestTool::Run(void)
LastError = 0x00000000 The operation completed successfully.
HRESULT = 0x00000000

Failed to draw geometry pane.
TRACE: void __thiscall CTestTool::DrawGeometry(void)
LastError = 0x00000000 The operation completed successfully.
HRESULT = 0x00000000

Failed to draw text.
TRACE: void __thiscall CDisplay::DrawTextW(class CDXFont &,const unsigned short *,const struct tagRECT &,enum CDisplay::HoriAdjust_t)
LastError = 0x00000000 The operation completed successfully.
HRESULT = 0x88760096

arca

04-01-04, 01:00 PM

Simon,

perhaps you are using a too large font size for your secondary display?

scintilla

04-03-04, 10:13 PM

Thanks, arca, for this handy tool. Your program confirmed my casual observations of judder issues with the Sharp PG-A10X LCD projectors. At any combination of supported computer resolutions and refresh rates, this projector shows severe judder and tearing artifacts. The buffer test helped me narrow down the internal refresh of the projector to approximately 70Hz (but only when connected to computer sources--more on that below). Setting the computer near to this rate greatly reduces the problem, however, a very severe and obvious tearing+judder glitch still occurs every few seconds or so. It appears that, even if you get the computer very close to the projector's internal clock, the projector still runs independently of the input sync.

This is not at all the case with TV/HDTV modes. I was able to "fool" the projector into thinking it was connected to a 720p HDTV source by setting the computer to 1280x720x60Hz. At this setting, judder and tearing artifacts disappeared completely! Unfortunately, the projector has to scale the 1280x720 down to 1024x576 for display, so the image is a little bit fuzzy, and of course, letterboxed to 16:9. Apparently, the engineers expected that users might try this approach, as 1280x720 unlocks an undocumented "HTPC" option in the "special modes" menu. The HTPC setting removes all overscan, making the full computer desktop visible.

I wasn't able to find any other resolution where setting the refresh to 60Hz led to both a hard sync and a viewable picture. It's possible to force the projector to 480p mode when the computer is set to 640x480, but the overscan is too great, and the scaling looks terrible. 960x540 at 540p shows the same problems. According to the docs, this projector will also sync to certain HDTV modes at 50Hz, but I wasn't able to make these work. 50Hz HDTV resolutions on the PC always caused a rolling picture on the projector.

Note that I ran most of these tests on two different PG-A10X units with the same results, so I doubt any of these observations are due to defects in a particular unit.

Jud

09-08-04, 03:06 PM

The link at the beginning of this thread seems to be broken. Is there a new link available?

arca

09-10-04, 01:20 PM

It shouldn't be broken. Works from here, but I'm very close to the server on the other hand.

Jud

09-13-04, 06:45 AM

Tried from a different computer and it worked fine, so it must've just been my machine.

samplehead

09-18-04, 02:06 AM

Hi,

I am having problems running Juddertest with my projectors native resolution (848x480). The problem is simply that I can't press the start button in Juddertest because the interface doesn't fit in that resolution and there's no "tab" control to get to the button to press....

Any chance of an update to this software so it can be used in a lower res?

Thanks,
Samplehead

Burrito

09-18-04, 08:53 AM

And an update with optional PS control would be nice...and a website that people understand what this software is all about...this is one of the greatest technical software for a HTPC but nobody seems to care. :(

arca

09-20-04, 01:22 PM

A quick workaround for 480 resolution might be to use Girder to bind a hotkey to the start-button in JudderTest.

This, and the optional PS are the two things I'd like to fix. Not much work, just busy and a bit bored over this software actually. :) My personal motivation was to find a judder-free projector and now I bought one.. (which turned out not to be judder-free, despite promises by the engineers!) Anyway, sometime!

samplehead

09-20-04, 07:14 PM

Thanks Arca - I really look forward to this... your software IS extremely useful to a lot of people. I think the awareness is growing slowly but steadily.

Cheers,
Samplehead

arca

10-11-04, 04:45 PM

Ok, you flattered me into it. Version 1.1 is available here (http://www.kuratorn.se/011/software/JudderTest11.zip). I have yet to do the optional PS, but I believe the window will fit in 848x480 now (it also depends on the font size you chose in Display Properties). I also added an optional time limit to the test and ability to lower the thread priority a bit. Someone had a problem with JudderTest hogging so much CPU the keyboard locked up.

Anyone finding the buffer test useful? I'm thinking of trashing that.

mogbert

10-16-04, 09:27 PM

Arca, thanks very much for your JudderTest program. I've spent most of the day trying to get my ATI 9700 Pro and PLV-Z2 playing DVDs via DVI smoothly, and your program has helped me understand a little better what is going on with this setup. Unfortunately, it also confirmed that it is probably impossible to succeed at this effort. :(

With the DVI interface, the Z2 seems to only work natively at a 60 Hz refresh rate (despite accepting a wide range of input rates). Anything other than 60 Hz gives visible tearing. And, of course, at 60 Hz, DVD playback suffers from obvious judder. Argh!

I am starting to look into using Reclock, but it seems a little tricky and i will probably give up on that. The audio artifacts would probably bug me anyway. Another option might be to tweak the Z2 directly to get it to work at another V-freq, but i doubt that would be easy either.

So i will probably have to accept the fact that satisfactory HTPC DVD playback is not possible with the PLV-Z2, and will stick with interlaced component inputs from my old DVD player.

Anyway, thanks again for JudderTest!

samplehead

10-18-04, 07:14 AM

Arca, thanks so much for the update. I'm now able to run JudderTest on my 848x480 HTPC (to 4805 DLP projector via DVI).

I'm using Girder to switch Powerstrip settings remotely (mainly between 47.952 and 50Hz for NTSC and PAL).

Firstly eventhough Powerstrip reports 50.000Hz for my PAL setting, Juddertest is reporting 50.001Hz. Which is more accurate?

Secondly, the Juddertest is absolutely smooth on the default frame rate setting of 1. Wouldn't this always be so?

Anyway, trying the frame rate of 2 refreshs/frame at 50.001Hz doesn't look as smooth to me, but I get absolutely no reported dropped frames. Does this mean I'm Judder less or not?

Thanks again,
Samplehead

arca

10-18-04, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by samplehead
Firstly eventhough Powerstrip reports 50.000Hz for my PAL setting, Juddertest is reporting 50.001Hz. Which is more accurate?
The scan rate and the refresh rate are computed from the other timing values and I round the result to three decimals. So a difference of 0.001 either means PowerStrip rounds differently, or has more accuracy in the input values than JudderTest.

Secondly, the Juddertest is absolutely smooth on the default frame rate setting of 1. Wouldn't this always be so?

Anyway, trying the frame rate of 2 refreshs/frame at 50.001Hz doesn't look as smooth to me, but I get absolutely no reported dropped frames. Does this mean I'm Judder less or not?
JudderTest will always output a "predictable" signal on the VGA/DVI port, as long as it does not report lost frames. That's the whole usefulness of JudderTest. But you'll still see judder if your display device converts the frame rate. Apparently, you're one of the lucky few! :)

That it doesn't look as smooth with 2 refreshs/frame is perhaps because you end up with a fairly low refresh rate?

bunyete

11-25-04, 05:47 PM

Thanks for this software. I finally was able to do some real pal htpc with my NEC HT-1100.

It obviously work in 60 Hz (I tried one of the powerstrip 1080i modes).

But it also works at 1024x768 50 Hz!!!

No luck so far around 75 Hz.

Here are the settings for 1024x768@50Hz:

dot clock: 46.767 MHz
Horiz:
39.499 KHz
1024 pix
fp: 48 pix
s: 32 pix
bp: 80 pix
tot: 1184 pix

Vert:
49.999 Hz
768 lines
fp: 3 lines
s : 4 lines
bp: 15 lines
total: 790 lines

Not completely related but interesting: I tried those settings under linux and it did not work identically: under windows, the projector info menu detects exactly 39.5 KHz/ 50.0 Hz but when under linux, it detects slightly different frequencies (49.96 Hz). The result is that a movie played under linux has little judder (enough for me to prefer my dvd player). The same movie under windows (without reclock) appear to have no judder at all.

What surprised me: with different timings but still at 50 Hz (the projector detecting exactly 50 Hz), I had judder...

I finally stopped using my dvd player to watch movies (I still need it for SACDs).

Cheers

bunyete

11-25-04, 05:49 PM

I forgot to say in my previous post that the projector and the htpc are connected using the DVI-D connectors.

Otto J.

12-14-04, 11:15 AM

Hello there.

I haven't tried the juddertest on any projectors (yet), but the DVDO Iscan HD+ has a judder test mode that looks very similar to the juddertest. I'm not sure whether or not they actually give the same results (I'm guessing they should), but I thought I'd share my experiences with the DVDO and different projectors so far. Maybe I should start by saying that I am a projector dealer living in Denmark, so PAL playback is pretty important to me.

Z2 via DVI: Smooth at 60 Hz, judder and tearing at 50 Hz. Having the DVDO convert to 60 Hz seems to be preferable over 50 Hz directly to the Z2. This obviously gives som judder, but at least you don't have tearing. 48, 72 and 75 Hz wasn't smooth either, so 60 Hz seems the only real possibility.

Z3 via HDMI: Smooth at both 60 and 50 Hz, no judder and no tearing. This means that PAL playback via HDMI works perfectly, which is a big plus for me. 48, 72 and 75 Hz was juddering badly, just like on the Z2. On both sanyo's it takes a bit of time for the projector to lock on to the framerate, so to make sure it handles the signal like it should, you should change the input back and forth when the framerate has been changed. Otherwise you may expericence judder during the first 30 seconds or so, that doesn't actually appear when watching movies.

PTAE 700 via HDMI: Smooth at 60, 50 AND 48 Hz! 72 and 75 was juddering, but that really doesn't matter - since 48 Hz is working smoothly and without tearing, NTSC films can be viewed at true 24 FPS. 48 or 72 doesn't make a difference on an LCD with 24 fps material, since you don't have to be aware of flickering. At 48 Hz the picture is much more relaxed to watch than at 60 Hz, so this is highly reccomended whereever possible. You should, however, feed the DVDO an interlaced signal to do this, otherwise it will sometimes screw up the frame sequence (2-3 becoming 1-4 is not that pretty... :cool: ) I don't have much expericence with HTPC, but I'm guessing perfect 48 Hz playback is possible?

arca

12-15-04, 12:48 PM

Otto,

thanks for sharing your experiences. It seems manufacturers are finally picking up on this matter. Personally I'm trying to get my JVC HX-1 replaced with an HX-2, which they *say* is judderfree at 50 Hz. If you're a dealer for JVC, it would be interesting to hear what results the DVDO gives. :)

maxleung

12-16-04, 01:02 PM

I must thank you for a wonderful program, arca!

No more guessing with Reclock and Zoomplayer and Powerstrip all the time now! :)

joffonon

12-17-04, 08:54 AM

A big thank you for the JudderTest software! I tried it out recently, and found that what my Nvidia card was saying was 72Hz turned out to be 60Hz! Now, using Powerstrip, I can get true 48Hz on my AE700 (confirming Otto's finding above).:)

Alan Head

12-21-04, 12:06 PM

First of all, thankyou for providing the Juddertest software. This has allowed me discover an unusual problem with my system which hopefully others could confirm.

I use my HTPC with a Skystar2 satellite card. Whenever the card is enabled I get lost frames showing in juddertest. The rate varies but is roughly one frame per second at 75Hz. If I disable the Skystar2 card I get no lost frames.

My system is reasonably powerful with a decent Enermax power supply, Athlon 2800+, 512Mb Ram and Nvidia 6600GT AGP Video Card.

I have tried to get to the bottom of the problem by changing power supply, motherboard, video card etc the only thing that causes judder test to lose frames is enabling the Skystar 2 card. I have tried all available Skystar2 drivers from the manufacturer and all the tweaked drivers that come with "MyTheatre" but they all cause the same dropped frame problem.

Could someone else who runs a Skystar2 card try using judder test and report if they find the same thing.

thanks in advance

maxleung

12-21-04, 04:34 PM

Does anyone have tips for preventing dropped frames while running JudderTest? I can't seem to nail down why I lose a frame once every 30 seconds (or minute). I know that with Motherboard Monitor and Asus SmartDoctor enabled I lose frames every 10 seconds at least.

takisot

12-22-04, 04:13 AM

OOPSS!
I Just realized why I must be dropping frames! It is the Skystar 2 card!
Yes Alan, I have the same problem!

arca

12-23-04, 05:32 AM

The reason is of course that several programs are competing for CPU time in a periodical fashion. JudderTest requires the CPU once every 16 ms on a 60 Hz system, so it's not unlikely that the CPU is busy now and then. DVD players should suffer from the same problem, unless there's a trick I'm unaware of.

Running JudderTest on a high priority and/or lowering the priority of other software (by using Task Manager) should help. But I believe low-level drivers are operating outside the Windows task scheduling mechanism, so putting a high priority on JudderTest might not help against those. Faster CPU could help a little, but a polling driver or an interrupt-based driver is going to steal the CPU just as often regardless how fast the CPU is.

Do you notice any lost frames when watching TV over the Skystar 2? Have a look at some scrolling text.

stoked

12-29-04, 02:52 PM

Hi,

I've been using my 4805 Infocus for awhile now. I seem to notice slight "blurriness" in fast movement or pans. Could this be attributed to the freq of the display? When playing NTSC material I use 47.937Hz using powerstrip. Running juddertest I get a handful of frame drops per minute. I've tried shutting applications off, and setting the priority of juddertest to the highest. No matter what I do I get frame drops. Even at 60Hz or 50Hz. Should I try reclock?

maxleung

12-29-04, 03:06 PM

The blurriness may be an artifact of how DLP works - it's been discussed quite a bit in the projector forums. It could also be a product of Denoise algorithms in the player(s) used or the blurriness inherent in the film (exposure time).

You should compare it with a set-top DVD player - if the blurriness is still present then it isn't the PC's fault.

Reclock might help, but it won't stop the judder that you see in Judder Test, although I suspect that using VMR or video overlay may prevent it, as I think they are more "advanced" than juddertest's simple DirectShow manipulations.

takisot

12-30-04, 05:25 AM

Originally posted by arca

Do you notice any lost frames when watching TV over the Skystar 2? Have a look at some scrolling text.

I found the problem: it was a tray application of Skystar 2 for Sat DSL that was causing the frame drops.
Now, after its removal I get no frame drops in TV or Juddertest!
;)

In_Awe01

01-03-05, 12:08 PM

First of all, thank you arca for a great utility. I have been trying to find a way for a while now to determine if the BenQ PB6100's color wheel changes speed to match the refresh rate of the input signal. Playing with your utility has convinced me that it does not. It appears to be fixed at a speed that corresponds with a 60Hz vertical refresh rate. All other refresh rates that I tested (48, 56, 72, 75, 85) caused quite a bit of judder. At a couple of those resolutions the lines even "pulsed" (their width varied from one frame to the next). All my testing was done at 800x600, the projector's native resolution.

After further tweaking via powerstrip, it apears that the "perfect" refresh rate for my 6100 is between 60.121 and 60.124. I couldn't get powerstrip to go to a value in between those two. From reading another post though, it sounds like playing with the front porch value might get me to an in between value. Does that sound right?

One interesting/annoying thing I noticed is that when I switch the projector to 16:9 mode, a horizontal line/shift marches through the image. Is this what people here mean when they say they are getting tearing? As I got closer to the two refresh rates listed above, the line came less frequently, but moved more slowly through the image. At 60.121, the line marches very slowly from bottom to top. At 60.124, it marches very slowly from top to bottom. This is what leads me to believe that the projectors "perfect" refresh rate is somewhere between these two. The line only occurs when the projector is in 16:9 mode, though, so I'm guessing that it is introduced by the scaling chip.

Related to that, does anyone know how to get ffdshow to scale a DVD to a resolution of 800x450? With one of Andy's earlier SSE optimized versions, Zoom Player would crash when I tried that resolution. I just updated to the SSE2 optimized version from 10/12/04 and Zoom Player no longer crashes, but the scaling also doesn't seem to be getting done. Ffdshow seems to handle scaling to 800x534 just fine, which I can then "correct" by putting the projector in 16:9 mode. If I can avoid 16:9 mode, though, then I can avoid the horizontal line through the display.

One final question - If the projector's "perfect" refresh rate is about 60.121, do I need to use Reclock to make DVD playback run at the correct frame rate? Does Reclock keep SPDIF audio in sync with the modified frame rate or can it only do that with audio that is being processed to by the PCs sound card (ie not being passed through to an external receiver)?

Sorry for the questions that aren't specifically about the Juddertest utility. All the questions are all related, though, so hopefully if some of you know the answer to one of them, you'll know the other answers too (or at least be able to point me to where to get the answers).

Thanks,

- Joshua

P.S. - I am using Zoom Player 4.03 with WinDVD 6 codecs. My video card is an ATI Radeon 9800. I am using Overlay for the display mode in Zoom Player.

maxleung

01-03-05, 03:19 PM

Joshua, have you tried 50Hz?

I have a Benq 8700, and I get judder at 50 Hz when using a bar speed greater than 2. I strongly suspect that the 8700 converts 50Hz to it's internal 60Hz rate and thus can't do true PAL. Although, it is possible that my 6800GT cannot output the correct timings - I am pretty sure my Momitsu V880 DVD player is much better with that. For example, I cannot get 59.94Hz working using my HTPC, but am absolutely certain the Momitsu can do it.

What you are seeing at 60.121 and 60.124 sounds like tearing to me. However, I suggest you try 60.000 Hz again - you really shouldn't see any judder at all except if your PC happens to drop a frame.

I could never get Reclock to work well using SPDIF - it resynces the audio by dropping or repeating AC3/DTS frames, while keeping video smooth and judder/stutter free. You WILL lose/repeat SPDIF frames unless you have an EXACT multiple of the source frame rate. I found it very frustrating, as the best I could do was a frame drop every 30 minutes with a Reclock-reported refresh rate of 59.927Hz (or something like that). WTF? Why do I get dropouts every 2 minutes if I adjust video timings so it reports 59.94Hz? Anyways, since our projectors can't do 47.952Hz I suggest dumping Reclock.

In_Awe01

01-03-05, 05:11 PM

Maxleung,

No, I didn't try 50Hz. I was mainly trying to find the best refresh rate to run film based DVDs at, and so concentrated on 48Hz, 60Hz and 72Hz. Next time I get the time to do some experimenting I'll try 50Hz and let you know what I see.

What does it sound like when Reclock adds/drops an audio frame? Is it highly noticable? If it is then I think you are right and that I should try to get as close to 60.000 as possible and do without ReClock. I think I've figured out my problem with ffdshow scaling now and so can run the projector in 4:3 mode, thereby eliminating the horizontal line/shift.

Thanks,

- Joshua

maxleung

01-03-05, 05:51 PM

Sometimes the audio dropouts are very irritating, but sometimes you can't hear it - it depends on the audio source at the time. :)

For music it is more obvious than in dialog when a dropout (or repeat) occurs.

Ideally, we should try to get exactly 59.94 Hz...but failing that 60.000 Hz should work. I might be losing video frames or getting very subtle judder, but it is better than audio problems. I'm using the trial NVIDIA 1.00.67 DVD Decoders (DXVA mode - so no FFDShow) and VMR9. I use nStantMedia for DVD playback, but sometimes use ZoomPlayer for improved aspect ratio control (improperly mastered anime, for example).

BTW, I find the Lord of the Rings trilogy very good material for checking judder and stutter...panning galore!

takisot

01-04-05, 04:49 AM

Originally posted by maxleung
Joshua, have you tried 50Hz?

I have a Benq 8700, and I get judder at 50 Hz when using a bar speed greater than 2. I strongly suspect that the 8700 converts 50Hz to it's internal 60Hz rate and thus can't do true PAL. Although, it is possible that my 6800GT cannot output the correct timings - I am pretty sure my Momitsu V880 DVD player is much better with that. For example, I cannot get 59.94Hz working using my HTPC, but am absolutely certain the Momitsu can do it.

What you are seeing at 60.121 and 60.124 sounds like tearing to me. However, I suggest you try 60.000 Hz again - you really shouldn't see any judder at all except if your PC happens to drop a frame.

I could never get Reclock to work well using SPDIF - it resynces the audio by dropping or repeating AC3/DTS frames, while keeping video smooth and judder/stutter free. You WILL lose/repeat SPDIF frames unless you have an EXACT multiple of the source frame rate. I found it very frustrating, as the best I could do was a frame drop every 30 minutes with a Reclock-reported refresh rate of 59.927Hz (or something like that). WTF? Why do I get dropouts every 2 minutes if I adjust video timings so it reports 59.94Hz? Anyways, since our projectors can't do 47.952Hz I suggest dumping Reclock.

Hello Max!
I am not sure whether you are right about the BenQ 50 Hz issue.
You might want to check the update of this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4917947#post4917947
I followed the PS timings provided by Ashley with great success. Of course I have a different graphics card from you.
I find the help of reclock, invaluable! Sure, during playback it shows lost/repeat SPDIF frames, but in real life I am not experiencing any audio drop outs or image stutters when playing a movie and the image is the SMOOTHEST I've ever seen on my 8700 (better than my Momitsu clone, or my Philips 963).
Anyway I send you a PM.

In_Awe01

01-04-05, 08:45 AM

Now that I've gotten the ffdshow resize working right (having an aspect ratio setting in both ffdshow and Zoom Player was throwing me off), I did a little bit of testing last night in 4:3 mode, thereby eliminating the horizontal tear. I kept an eye on the frame drop counter to make sure I wasn't mistaking frame drops for judder. At 59.940Hz I get a judder about every six seconds. At 60.000 I get one about every eight seconds. At 60.121 and 60.124 they still occur, but are few and far between. So, it looks like I am stuck with slightly higher than 60Hz in order to be mostly judder free. I think I'll try Reclock out to see what its internal judder test shows without correction at 60.121 and 60.124 and also to see if the dropped/repeated sound frames bother me.

I also managed to get 60.123Hz through a little bit of fiddling with front porch values. At that refresh rate it was like there was an invisible vertical line towards the left side of the screen that whenever a bar's edge would pass it, the edge would go kind of fuzzy. Strange.

Maxleung, you mention 59.94 as being the ideal refresh rate. Would that only apply to stuff that was originaly shot on video (NTSC) and not on film? Film's rate is a straight 24 fps, right? Is it slightly slowed down (along with it's audio) to match the 59.94 refresh rate when it is encoded to DVD, or is that slowdown handled by the DVD player? In other words, is film based material put on DVD at 59.94Hz or 60.000Hz?

Thanks again,

- Joshua

maxleung

01-04-05, 12:37 PM

My understanding is that most (all?) film-based DVDs are mastered at 23.976 frames per second. According to the Reclock docs, 59.94 Hz should be the ideal refresh rate. However, this is assuming our videocards or videocard drivers are telling us the truth when we use powerstrip to set these values.

So far, only 60.000Hz is working for me judder-free in JudderTest on my Geforce 6800GT and Benq 8700+ projector. There should be judder/stutter when playing back 23.976 fps DVDs on this setup, but I haven't really seen it yet - but it SHOULD happen. It seems the NVIDIA DVD Decoders and Purevideo drivers smooth this out enough that I don't notice it!

I guess every display device is different - 60.123 Hz certainly seems unusual, but if it works, it works. :)

I'll check out the other thread Takisot, and check my PMs. :)

arca

01-05-05, 03:51 AM

It's nice to see my program making itself useful to someone. It's been nothing but disappointment for myself :) but I'll have an HX-2 to test soon. I have high hopes for that one.

As for the odd refresh rates, I believe 60.124 and other strange rates originate from the PC world. The "standard" PC 60 Hz was never exact so I guess projector engineers have a habit of picking whatever rate is closest to their circuits?

Mark_A_W

01-05-05, 05:24 AM

Originally posted by maxleung
My understanding is that most (all?) film-based DVDs are mastered at 23.976 frames per second. According to the Reclock docs, 59.94 Hz should be the ideal refresh rate. However, this is assuming our videocards or videocard drivers are telling us the truth when we use powerstrip to set these values.

This is completely wrong.

You should be watching a NTSC film based dvd at 47.952hz, or 71.928 hz, using reclock.

At 59.94hz, a 3:2 frame cadence is established - resulting in JUDDER.

If your stuck with a projector that only does ~60hz, then I'd be trying the Windvd Trimension whatsit frame interpolator doodad.

I'm quite encouraged to see reports of some digital pj's that will really multisync to 47.952hz - it's about time, but I'll stick to my CRT projector which simple displays whatever your throw at it. ;)
I can get PERFECTLY smoothplay back with either SPDIF out or Analogue out, using Reclock. I'm sorry, I'm sounding a bit smug, but it's freaking me out how much trouble fixed 60hz displays can cause...

Fredrik

01-05-05, 06:19 AM

I've got a strange problem which I don't have a clue to why it happends.

But I got a ATI 9700 Pro (can't remember driver version) and I get this kind of stop-and-go type of motion.
It's like the bars actually stops for a microsecond and the starts again.
Almost like tearing but without tears ;) (nice explanation huh ;))
It's a smooth motion but not a correct motion.
It's more apparent if I speed up the bars.

This is all on a CRT projector, which makes me belive it's a gfx-card problem but I'm not sure that is the case.
The driver was downloaded about a month ago so it's not that old.
Any ideas ?
Power supply problem ?

arca

01-05-05, 07:14 AM

Originally posted by Fredrik
I've got a strange problem which I don't have a clue to why it happends.

But I got a ATI 9700 Pro (can't remember driver version) and I get this kind of stop-and-go type of motion.
It's like the bars actually stops for a microsecond and the starts again.
Almost like tearing but without tears ;) (nice explanation huh ;))
It's a smooth motion but not a correct motion.
It's more apparent if I speed up the bars.

This is all on a CRT projector, which makes me belive it's a gfx-card problem but I'm not sure that is the case.
The driver was downloaded about a month ago so it's not that old.
Any ideas ?
Power supply problem ?

Second effect Mark Rejhon was talking about here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3551207#post3551207)?

maxleung

01-05-05, 11:09 AM

Sorry Mark, I meant to say that 59.94hz is needed for 23.976 fps sources with 3:2 pulldown. According to the Reclock docs, this is CORRECT info when you can't do 47.952Hz and only have a ~60hz device.

BTW, I get perfectly smooth playback (with 3:2 "judder") if I don't use Reclock. Go figure!

[EDIT: corrected ~48Hz rate]

Fredrik

01-05-05, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by arca
Second effect Mark Rejhon was talking about here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3551207#post3551207)?

I'm not sure I follow/understand the description of the second effect.

In_Awe01

01-05-05, 03:25 PM

Maxleung - Thanks for clearing up the DVD film frame rate for me. My DVD playback also seems smooth now, even though I'm running at 60.12xHz instead of 59.94 (or even better, 47.952 or 71.928). I'm almost afraid to load up Reclock and disillusion myself. I swear, sometimes becoming a videophile is all about finding new problems to worry over that never bothered you before.

Arca - Yes, I definitely think now that the BenQ PB6100 was not designed with home theater as a strong focus. That makes sense though, since it is definitely a budget projector. Interestingly enough, choosing 800x600@60Hz on my PC results in a refresh rate of 60.221Hz, so even that does not match the refresh rate that I found to be the best. Therefore Powerstrip is needed to get even standard display from a PC to be judder free. If you are only using the projector for a PowerPoint presentation or something like that though, then I guess the dis-synchronization wouldn't matter or be too noticible. I would hope that DLP projectors designed specifically for the home theater market are tuned to be perfect at 59.94Hz (or 47.952 or 71.928 or PAL equivalents).

Mark_A_W - This is my first major foray into the home theater market and I was on a very strict budget, so I won't complain too much about what I got. Given the chance to go back and buy again, I would probably choose differently. It's a learning process though, and I'll ask smarter questions before buying next time around. I didn't even consider going with a CRT based projector since I don't want a chance of burn-in from the PC apps and gaming that I also use the projector for.

- Joshua

arca

01-06-05, 12:33 AM

Originally posted by Fredrik
I'm not sure I follow/understand the description of the second effect.

Backtracking a bit, you'll find what Rejhon was referring to here and onwards (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3536211#post3536211). If you're running your CRT at high refresh rate and keeping the frame rate low by repeating frames, you'll see the sample-and-hold effect and blur that he's talking about.

This can be demonstrated on either a CRT or a digital display:
Keep the refresh rate = 60 Hz, frame rate = 20 fps and bar speed = 10. Then run this at refresh skip = 1 and then at refresh skip = 3. This is equivalent to running 20 fps on a CRT at 60 Hz and 20 Hz respectively.

At 60 Hz/refresh skip=1 you'll see that the bars are blurred and seem to stop-and-go while at 20 Hz/refresh skip=3 they are sharper and move pretty smoothly (but flicker more).

Is this the effect you were seeing?

Fredrik

01-06-05, 10:20 AM

Arca,

Ahh, ok I get it now ;)
Will check it out later today and I'll post the result.

Shape

03-05-05, 06:38 PM

This is very cool! It turns out that all I had to do was select some default custom resolutions in Powerstrip to get judder free DVD playback in Media Center with my Mitsubishi DLP. But the tool did help me see that these settings would work.

Thanks!

chargin

09-06-05, 08:18 AM

So is it safe to set my acer 32" LCD to 50 refresh rate? I already have and it works but I thought these LCD TV's were 60hz only? Im using this trying to attempt to fix my recorded digital TV's judder. What is the ideal refresh for our PAL system, it would be 50 wouldnt it, we have 25 fps dont we?
50 seems a little better than what I was experiencing at 60 but Im still not happy.........

mariner888

09-07-05, 12:24 AM

Greetings everyone,

First, a big thanks to Arca for writing this wonderful utility.

I have run judder test on an old viewsonic VG191 1280x1024 lcd monitor at 48,50,60,72 and 75Hz, but did not notice any significant difference. Am I doing something wrong, or is this a "multisync" lcd monitor?

Thanks.

arca

09-07-05, 01:51 AM

chargin,

I doubt that there is any risk of damage to your LCD screen by experimenting with different timings, but don't sue me over it. :) CRT is another matter, I'd make sure I stay within specs if I had one of those.

Ideal for PAL would be 25.0 or 50.0 Hz. I've heard of LCDs syncing all the way down to 12 Hz, so if you're feeling lucky you could try 25 Hz and 75 Hz too.

mariner888,

if PowerStrip says 48, 50, 60, 72, 75, I think you can trust that you're sending what you think you're sending. To be sure, maybe your monitor reports the input refresh rate?

peter caesar

09-07-05, 02:42 AM

arca,

Thanks for your effort, more and more projector manufacturers and users have been aware of the Sync/Tearing/Dropping frame issue. Being one who benefited from JudderTest, I drive my Optoma H79 at an V/F of 47.952Hz with helps of PowerStrip and ReClock.

Thanks again.

mariner888

09-07-05, 03:31 AM

Hi Arca,

Glad to see you posting again and thanks for the quick reply.

Yes, the monitor OSD, powerstrip, reclock and judder test all report the same refresh rates (with minor diff of course). I thought LCDs are supposed to be single refresh rate devices, and this is done over DVI. Yet I do not detect any noticeable judder when changin refresh rates. Is the difference subtle?

How is your quest for multisync projector? I have recently picked up a viewsonic pj755d dlp projector, and will be using judder test once they are set up. Since these are single chip device with a colour wheel, do you think they will sync to 48/50/60/72Hz refresh rates? What are the symptoms that I should be looking for?

Do you think the new batch of >37" 1920x1080 LCD TV are capable of multiple refresh rates?

Once again, thank you for a great piece of work.

arca

09-07-05, 02:47 PM

Thanks guys, I'm glad you're finding JudderTest useful! It finally helped me find my dream projector as well - JVC HX2. It's smooth and tear-free at all refresh rates from 48 to 60 Hz. It's great if manufacturers are putting more effort into these issues, I don't know how they thought they would get away with making all display devices 60 Hz.. :)

mariner888,

if the judder was there, I'm sure you would see it on the bars. A crude simulation of judder is to set bar speed = 3, and a low frame rate, like 15 frames/sec. The bars will seem to skip forward instead of flowing smoothly. The edge of the bars will look blurred. That look, and a little more irregular, is my experience of judder. If you don't see anything like this, we can only conclude that your monitor is free from judder!

As for DLP projectors I've heard of some models with judder and others without. They say that you can hear the color wheel change speed if it does adapt to the input refresh rate.

I have no idea about LCD TVs. I hope to get one of these myself in the future. Or perhaps a widescreen monitor. I'm waiting for something very thin and aestetically pleasing. When OLED hits perhaps. :)

mariner888

09-07-05, 11:50 PM

Hi arca, thanks again. Is the HX2 a LCOS design, and do you use DVI to connect to a PC?

arca

09-08-05, 03:54 AM

That's right, it's LCOS and is connected by DVI-D to my PC.

mariner888

09-09-05, 12:27 AM

Hi arca, looks like i should pick up a HX2 as well. Please tell me more about it.

1. Is it fussy about clock accuracy of the graphics card? As that might rule out the use of Nvidia cards. Do you need Powerstrip to fine tune the refresh rates?

2. The 1400x788 resolution is somewhat unusual, so deos the EDID defines timing strings for this, and also for 48 and 50 Hz refresh rate?

3. If 48 and 50 Hz refresh rates are not defined, do you tweak the windows registry , or use powerstrip to use these refresh rates?

Thanks.

arca

09-09-05, 03:44 PM

If it's in your price range I definitely think you should have a look at it.

There was another guy on here who had some problems getting HX2 to perform at frequencies other than 60 Hz. He had an Nvidia card though. I know that JVC addressed the issue of judder after HX1 and obviously it's working for me. I have a Radeon. So maybe that's the reason. There were some issues for me too, I got red sparklies at some timings. It was easy enough to get around by trying a different pixel clock. I have a 30 ft DVI cable, so I don't know if that had something to do with the sparklies.

There's no help to be found in the EDID. All I see are the standard resolutions and one 1400x788@60. I'm using PowerStrip to get 50 Hz. That's the only way I know. But it works great. 1400x788 is available in games (Call of Duty, Far Cry, Half Life 2, Battlefield 2, ...) and movies are as smooth as ever, especially after VMR9 Renderless was implemented in Zoom Player.

mariner888

09-30-05, 12:08 AM

Hi arca,

Finally had a chance to do some tests with the PJ755 using a radeon 9700 card. Here are the results:

1. Frame rate=1 Bar Speed =1 Bar Count=1 Bar Width=10

No obvious sign of judder and no dropped frames for 60/50/48 Hz, although for 60Hz did notice the bar seemed to skip at the middle as it moved across the screen. Used parameters defined in EDID timing block for 60Hz refresh, and modified pixel clock to get 48 and 50Hz. Varying the pixel clock away from EDID specified clock rate did not result in any difference.

2. Refresh rate=4, Bar speed=4

When refresh rate is reduced by a factor of 4, and bar speed increased as suggested, the symptoms you described became apparent for all refresh rates. Again, modifying the pixel clock did not locate any sweet spot refresh rate.

3. Bar Width=1

When bar width was set to one, two closely spaced line appearerd instead of one. The movement across the screen was smooth for all refresh rates.

4. With a GT6600 card, dropped frames for all refresh rates.

5. Using reclock, vsync test was well behaved and judder test gave a similar result.

6. Did not detect change in colout wheel speed.

Would appreciate if you could help interprete these findings.

Thank you and kind regards.

maxleung

09-30-05, 10:46 AM

mariner, are you using 59.94 hz and 47.952 hz(I think), respectively? Those are the proper refresh rates for NTSC material and for NTSC film DVDs at 2x speed, respectively. I guess it doesn't matter though if your projector speeds up the wheel a little bit to match 48.00 hz and 60.00 hz exactly though. :)

EDIT: 47.952 hz I believe is the proper ~48hz rate for NTSC film DVDs

arca

10-04-05, 09:53 AM

mariner888,

based on (1) it sounds like your display plays nice, except for that skip at 60 Hz? If they are periodic skips I'd look for another display timing for the same refresh rate. If the bar moves smoothly at refresh rates in a range around 48, 50 and 60 Hz you shouldn't have any trouble dialing in the refresh rates that maxleung suggested and get movie playback that is free of both judder and repeated/skipped frames (as reported by Reclock).

What you mention in (4) is odd though. Do you get dropped frames every now and then or only at the beginning of the test? Someone reported getting dropped frames the first few seconds and then none (also an Nvidia card). If it's only the first few seconds it could be that the graphics driver needs a period of initialization before it synchs as expected. No worry as long as the rest of the movie is fine, right.

mariner888

10-05-05, 06:06 AM

Hi max,

Thank you for the suggestions. Will try using a wider range of piexl clock rate to see if there is a sweet spot.

best regards.

mariner888

10-05-05, 06:43 AM

Hi arca,

Thank you for the reply.

The PJ755D is a cheap single chip dlp projector, and should make a good candidate for 60Hz single refresh rate display device. But so far it has acquitted itself pretty well. Apart from what I described in (2) above and the credits at the end of movies, there were no obvious signs of judder, even with 50Hz material. Perhaps I am blind to judder after all.

I believe (3) was aslo noted by previous posts in this thread. Would you know what may be the cause?

The situation with the 6600GT is somewhat of a puzzle to me as well. I picked up this dual dvi card to test a configuration suggested by another enigmatic forum member bbq@kl, using two SX50 in the vertically spanned and rotate mode to obtain a 2100x1400 destop. The locak Canon rep had earlier done a demo with the projectors connected to the dvi and vga output of a 9600 card. Not ideal, and the 9600 was clearly underpowered to handle two display simultaneously, but somehow he got the mpc and vlc working across two displays. Well, this experiment will have to wait until these othere issues are sorted out.

Will like to check out the HX2. Judging from your comments, I guess there is no officoal support for 48/50/60Hz refresh over DVI?

Thank you and best regards.

arca

10-14-05, 06:07 AM

mariner888,

I'm slow in responding. :) Anyone's welcome to help explain these things. After all, I'm merely a software guy, not a video expert!

I can only guess at (3), never heard of anything like it. Could it be caused by DLP dither perhaps? I'm thinking of how (older?) DLPs seem to smear the picture when there is a lot of motion. If they dither the pixels for a time that spans two frames, you should get something that looks like two superimposed frames. Two bars in JudderTest. If this is the case, it would also mask judder to a degree, at the cost of smear of course.

The experiment with two SX50 sounds interesting. You hear people thinking about this now and then, but not many actually get to try it.

I have not heard anything officially from JVC other than the usual - "it syncs to 50 Hz". But I had a correspondance with them and they admitted that people had been complaining about this issue and they put a fix for it in HX2. They had to upgrade the hardware, they could not fix it by just upgrading the firmware. Perhaps it's too technical a feature to put in a spec sheet.

Polypro

12-08-05, 10:58 AM

New Sceptre 37" owner here...I'm going to give this a try. Thanks for the software.

P

Polypro

12-08-05, 07:24 PM

arca,

Just want to say thanks for the tool. I dialed out judder on a Sceptr 37" LCD. 53.306Hz was the majic number. Great job!

P

Easley

12-09-05, 07:20 AM

arca

12-09-05, 10:40 AM

Just want to say thanks for the tool. I dialed out judder on a Sceptr 37" LCD. 53.306Hz was the majic number. Great job!Great! Displays with these odd "magic numbers" will of course not be perfectly smooth with a source feeding at 50 Hz or 59.94 Hz, but at least you should have minimized the problem. You now have one conversion 59.94 (DVD/TV) -> 53.306 (display) Hz, instead of 59.94 -> 60.xxx Hz (video card default) -> 53.306 or 59.94 -> 60.xxx Hz -> tearing.

arca

12-09-05, 10:49 AM

This thread confuses my alittle. I have a Panasonic AE900 which is a 1280x720p LCD. I use my 6600GT's DVI port to drive it. Can you set this LCD (or any LCD) at other rates beside 50/60? Powerstrip will let me select other rates, as well as the nVidia drivers. But I see no visual difference on the screen, or see no difference in JudderTest results. I have tried 15, 48, and 72.LCDs usually accept many refresh rates but may show video artifacts on some or most refresh rates. I think AE700 didn't show judder on 50 and 60 Hz, so maybe AE900 is good enough to take care of even 15 Hz. Well, at least you should see the bar moving faster at 72 Hz than at 15 Hz? 15 Hz should look a little jerky because it's so slow.

Polypro

12-12-05, 12:31 PM

Great! Displays with these odd "magic numbers" will of course not be perfectly smooth with a source feeding at 50 Hz or 59.94 Hz, but at least you should have minimized the problem. You now have one conversion 59.94 (DVD/TV) -> 53.306 (display) Hz, instead of 59.94 -> 60.xxx Hz (video card default) -> 53.306 or 59.94 -> 60.xxx Hz -> tearing.

Thanks arca. What would be the better scenario for NTSC/ATSC material:

1. Broadcast > 60Hz w/NVIDIA Driver > 53.306Hz w/Powerstrip

Or

2. Broadcast > 50Hz w/NVIDIA Driver > 53.306Hz w/Powerstrip

The display runs fine at 50Hz and improved the judder before I even found this thread and tried Powerstrip. Or does it not matter?

Thanks,

P

mariner888

12-12-05, 11:59 PM

Hi Polypro,

53.3Hz is certainly interesting for your Sceptr 37' LCD. Would appreciate if you could kindly share the EDID info.

Did you also try 48 and 50Hz?

Thank you and kind regards.

arca

12-13-05, 04:49 AM

Thanks arca. What would be the better scenario for NTSC/ATSC material:

1. Broadcast > 60Hz w/NVIDIA Driver > 53.306Hz w/Powerstrip

Or

2. Broadcast > 50Hz w/NVIDIA Driver > 53.306Hz w/Powerstrip

The display runs fine at 50Hz and improved the judder before I even found this thread and tried Powerstrip. Or does it not matter?

Thanks,

P

Hmm, the NVIDIA driver and Powerstrip are really one and the same step. Powerstrip is just used to configure whatever video driver you have. Since the broadcast is always ~60 Hz and the display tries to force everything to ~53.306 internally, you might as well do this 60->53.306 conversion on the PC to be sure you avoid tearing. So my bet is on setting 53.306 using Powerstrip, or NVIDIAs own display properties if it has enough precision. The software used to grab frames off the broadcast should then render the latest frame every 1/53.306 seconds, in effect converting 60->53.306.

Burrito

12-13-05, 01:19 PM

Hello arca!

Thank you again for this great little tool! It puts the finger exactly on the worst problem currently happening in the HTPC scene (and for a long time): Motion artifacts when running from a PC.
This is so overlooked by nearly everybody - i'm happy that this old thread is more popular recently and again attracts a few people. Its also nice to see that you are still around and give support to people.

After all the praise, however i have one small request:

Please remove the need for PowerStrip from JudderTest!

Of course i have some arguments to share about this:
-It confuses people because they think they can really fix their problems with PowerStrip - which is not true.
-Display drivers are capable of advanced timing recently.
-I really don't want to install PowerStrip if i don't need it at all.

Thanks again for all your dedication and hours you put into this!

arca

12-13-05, 01:36 PM

After all the praise, however i have one small request:

Please remove the need for Powerstrip from Juddertest!

Thank you, :) I'm glad my little program can help a few improve their HTPC. You're right that I should remove the need for Powerstrip. But then JudderTest will be without the controls to adjust timings on-the-fly. Xmas vacation is coming up, I'll get on it then!

Polypro

12-13-05, 01:42 PM

Mariner, here it is (moninfo.exe):

Monitor
Windows description......... Plug and Play Monitor
Manufacturer................ SEP
————————————————————————————
Plug and Play ID............ SEP0064
Serial number............... 777 (153100777)
EDID data source............ I2C bus (real-time)
————————————————————————————
Manufacture date............ 2005, ISO week 31
EDID revision............... 1.3
Display type and signal..... Digital
Sync input support.......... n/a
Screen size................. 700 x 390 mm (~33")
Power management............ Active off/sleep

Color characteristics
Display gamma............... 2.20
Red chromaticity............ Rx 0.640 - Ry 0.341
Green chromaticity.......... Gx 0.286 - Gy 0.610
Blue chromaticity........... Bx 0.146 - By 0.069
White point (default)....... Wx 0.284 - Wy 0.293

Timing characteristics
VESA GTF support............ Supported
Horizontal scan range....... n/a
Vertical scan range......... n/a
Video bandwidth............. n/a
Extension blocks............ 1
Timing recommendation #1.... 1920x1080 at 60Hz
Modeline................ "1920x1080" 148.500 1920 2008 2052 2200 1080 1084 1094 1124 +hsync +vsync
Timing recommendation #2.... 2072x1363 at 47Hz
Modeline................ "2072x1363" 358.400 2072 2121 2946 5308 1363 1366 1368 1432 -hsync -vsync

Standard timings supported
640 x 480 at 60Hz - IBM VGA
800 x 600 at 60Hz - VESA
1024 x 768 at 60Hz - VESA
1024 x 768 at 75Hz - VESA
1280 x 1024 at 60Hz - VESA
1280 x 1024 at 75Hz - VESA
1600 x 1200 at 60Hz - VESA
1920 x 1080 at 60Hz - SEP
2072 x 1363 at 47Hz - SEP

Raw EDID base
00: 00 FF FF FF FF FF FF 00 4C B0 64 00 09 03 00 00
10: 1F 0F 01 03 81 46 27 78 2B D5 7C A3 57 49 9C 25
20: 11 48 4B 21 0B 00 A9 40 81 80 01 01 01 01 01 01
30: 01 01 01 01 01 01 02 3A 80 18 71 38 2C 40 58 2C
40: 4A 00 C4 8E 21 00 00 1E 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
60: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 8C 18 A4
70: 8C 53 45 50 31 39 32 30 20 20 20 20 20 20 01 2B

Raw EDID extension (CEA-861)
00: 02 03 20 F1 49 01 02 03 04 85 06 07 08 09 23 09
10: 57 07 83 01 00 00 65 03 0C 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
20: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
30: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
40: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
50: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
60: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
70: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 72

EIA/CEA-861 Information
Revision number............. 3
DTV underscan............... Supported
Basic audio................. Supported
YCbCr 4:4:4................. Supported
YCbCr 4:2:2................. Supported
Native formats supported.... 1
DTV formats supported....... 9

CE standard timings supported
640 x 480p at 59.94/60Hz (4:3) - Default
720 x 480p at 59.94/60Hz (4:3) - EDTV
720 x 480p at 59.94/60Hz (16:9) - EDTV
1280 x 720p at 59.94/60Hz (16:9) - HDTV
1920 x 1080i at 59.94/60Hz (16:9) - HDTV (Native)
720 x 480i at 59.94/60Hz (4:3) - Doublescan
720 x 480i at 59.94/60Hz (16:9) - Doublescan
720 x 240p at 59.94/60Hz (4:3) - Doublescan
720 x 240p at 59.94/60Hz (16:9) - Doublescan

Display adapter
Adapter description......... NVIDIA GeForce 6600
Adapter device ID........... 0x00F210DE
Display settings............ 1920x1080, 32bpp

User/computer information
Registered user name........ Ron
Registered organization..... Home
Network user name........... Ron
Network computer name....... HTPC
Windows version ............ Windows XP
Windows build .............. 5.01.2600 Service Pack 2
Installation date .......... 8/31/2005 12:00:00 PM

I tried 50Hz and it helped with the tearing, I didn't try any lower. I then was directed to this thread by donsev on the Sceptre Review thread and arrived at 53.306Hz as the best compromise using JudderTest.

P

mariner888

12-14-05, 02:54 AM

Hi Polypro,

Thank you for posting EDID. Detailed timing block 1 looks fine, but block 2 looked somewhat suspect with 358.4 MHz pixel clock, probably beyond the capabilities of dual link DVI.

But the display should work fine at 1920x1080@60Hz with the Nvidia card. Perhaps it's a faulty unit?

Regards.

mariner888

12-14-05, 02:55 AM

Hi arca,

Greetings. Sorry for the late response to your earlier post. Had to nail down a few things....

Anyway, the dropped frames issue with Nvidia card was resolved, and more tests were done with 47.952, 48, 50, 59.94 and 60.02 Hz refresh rates. Both the LCD monitor and DLP projector performed with flying colours. It would appear that the TMDS receiver in the display had no problem syncing with different pixel clock rate, and whether any refresh rate conversion was done subsequently was difficult to tell indeed. Quite an amazing result.

The test with reclock was less consistent, with periods of well behaved moving bar follwed by jerky motion, or at times, with a different speed. This happened most with 23.976 fps material, and could be due to reclock changing the playback rate.

I tried simulating what judder would look like, but could not get reclock to work when playing 50fps material with refresh rate set to 60Hz.

As the guys at the IT department have figured out how to add custom refresh rates to windows registry without PS, I look forward to the next version of PS free judder test. Would it then have the ability to output at frame rates independent of the display refresh rate?

The experiment with dual Canon did not proceed well. The guys could not get the nvidia driver to do 90 degrees rotation in spanned mode, and if configured as dual mode performance would take a big hit.

So the search continues for 1080p LCOS, and the HD2K is looking good at the moment. The timing specs provided on the JVC website has detailed timing blocks defined for 50 and 60Hz, so I guess it means official support for both. As you are familiar with JVC products, would you know if it also supports 48Hz?

Finally, would like to know how you set custom refresh rates with your HX2. Did you change the pixel clock while keeping the same porches, or change the horizontal porches with same pixel clock?

Thank you and best regards.

arca

12-14-05, 02:36 PM

Anyway, the dropped frames issue with Nvidia card was resolved, and more tests were done with 47.952, 48, 50, 59.94 and 60.02 Hz refresh rates. Both the LCD monitor and DLP projector performed with flying colours. It would appear that the TMDS receiver in the display had no problem syncing with different pixel clock rate, and whether any refresh rate conversion was done subsequently was difficult to tell indeed. Quite an amazing result.Nice! What was the resolution to the dropped frames issue?

As the guys at the IT department have figured out how to add custom refresh rates to windows registry without PS, I look forward to the next version of PS free judder test. Would it then have the ability to output at frame rates independent of the display refresh rate?Frame rate and refresh rate could easily be independent, but what concerns me is that it would be at odds with the purpose of JudderTest. It would be useful for simulating judder, but could also confuse those who do not understand exactly what is happening. Worst case scenario would be judder blamed on a display when it was just a newbie testing with bad parameters. An "advanced checkbox" to enable arbitrary frame rates could be a compromise.

The experiment with dual Canon did not proceed well. The guys could not get the nvidia driver to do 90 degrees rotation in spanned mode, and if configured as dual mode performance would take a big hit.Aw, too bad!

So the search continues for 1080p LCOS, and the HD2K is looking good at the moment. The timing specs provided on the JVC website has detailed timing blocks defined for 50 and 60Hz, so I guess it means official support for both. As you are familiar with JVC products, would you know if it also supports 48Hz?Unfortunately, I recall someone having judder issues with HD2K. I think it was at 48Hz, or even 50Hz. It was here on AVS, a number of months ago. Better look it up to be sure (or test it), but it makes sense, HD2K was released before HX2 and could have the same problem as HX1.

Finally, would like to know how you set custom refresh rates with your HX2. Did you change the pixel clock while keeping the same porches, or change the horizontal porches with same pixel clock?I use horizontal porch to get as close as possible to the refresh rate I want. If it doesn't hit it spot on, I alter the pixel clock one step up or down. This gives a whole new set of refresh rates to chose from. Eventually I get all the decimals right.

I suppose an alternative could be to go for lowest possible pixel clock and minimal porch and synch. High pixel clock should only contribute to higher risk of errors when transferring pixels. I didn't test the limits much myself. I was happy once I had the important refresh rates dialed in. :)

mariner888

12-15-05, 10:26 PM

Hi arca,

Thanks for reply.

1. No more dropped frames after connecting the 12V power supply to the 6600GT.

2. The "advanced checkbox" feature sounds good. This would provide a source with known and constant frame rate.

3. I'm not sure what to make of the 50Hz judder issue with HK2K. It's defined in the detailed timing block, and it does not work? Quite a sad situation, especially when a product costing only one tenth can do it with relative ease.

4. Would you kindly share the timing parameters used in getting HX2 to work at different refresh rates?

Thank you and best regards.

arca

12-17-05, 07:06 PM

3. I'm not sure what to make of the 50Hz judder issue with HK2K. It's defined in the detailed timing block, and it does not work? Quite a sad situation, especially when a product costing only one tenth can do it with relative ease.

4. Would you kindly share the timing parameters used in getting HX2 to work at different refresh rates?
Where is it defined for HD2K? In the EDID? I just heard someone tried and failed, but you never know, maybe that person had trouble for other reasons. For HX1 there was a document at www.jvcdig.com where they had timings for 50Hz. It synched, but then there was still judder and tearing.

For HX2 just about anything seems to work fine for 48-60Hz. The timings I use for 50Hz are:
PowerStrip timing parameters:
1400x788=1400,240,112,248,788,1,3,58,85000,1

Generic timing details for 1400x788:
HFP=240 HSW=112 HBP=248 kHz=42 VFP=1 VSW=3 VBP=58 Hz=50

Linux modeline parameters:
"1400x788" 85.000 1400 1640 1752 2000 788 789 792 850 +hsync +vsync
I played with 48Hz, but did not save the timings. Both TV and DVD is 50Hz and 48Hz looked so similar I just stick to 50.

mariner888

12-19-05, 01:18 AM

Hi arca,

Thank you for posting timing details. You have modified both the HFP and pixel clock to arrvie at perfect 50Hz refresh. Would you like to share with us how you came up with such an inspired choice?

I believe we are refering to the same document (040401HD2K_60p50p_Timing.pdf) for HD2K 50Hz timing. I had assumed that came from the EDID, was it not?

Was quite impressed when I saw that initially, because so few products had timing details defined for different refresh rates. This only highlights how an indispensable tool Judder Test is.

Thank you and best regards.

arca

12-21-05, 01:14 AM

You have modified both the HFP and pixel clock to arrvie at perfect 50Hz refresh. Would you like to share with us how you came up with such an inspired choice?
It could even be the timings from the pdf, don't remember. But it's really easy to find the right timings, just search like I described. Here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=481965) is another thread where takisot and maxleung are discussing this is in more detail. I vaguely remember seeing a thread where they used the dropped frames counter in Reclock too.. but I couldn't find it right now.

I believe we are refering to the same document (040401HD2K_60p50p_Timing.pdf) for HD2K 50Hz timing. I had assumed that came from the EDID, was it not?
No, it's not. Besides, even if it was in the EDID that's no guarantee it's free from judder. I was told these timings should work on my HX1, but I still had judder and two tearlines. Unless you have easy access to an HD2K, maybe you can convince some owner here on AVS Forum to run JudderTest for you?

mariner888

12-23-05, 01:31 AM

Hi arca,

Will keep you updated.

Thanks and regards.

hardc0re

12-24-05, 11:25 AM

Thanks arca for the excellent software.

I've been using it with my PC with Radeon X1300 using VGA output to a Panasonic plasma 42PV500. At the default 1024x768 @ 60Hz, there is some tearing.

The magic number for me seems to be 59.801Hz, then there is almost no tearing, although close to that frequency there will be a tear slowly moving up/down the screen.

Does anybody else have experience with Juddertest and the Pannys PX500 or PV500 series?

I wonder if your database is ready? It will be an excellent resource for display owners to share their "magic numbers".

nitrogen

01-03-06, 02:18 AM

Hello, everyone.

I got fed up with jerky video playback on my Linux HTPC and Plus UP-1100P projector, so I wrote a program today to help me solve the problem.

It's a Judder Test tool for Linux. It is command-line based, rather than GUI-based like this tool, which would allow a person to include it in a bootable scripted test CD/DVD for HTPC's.

It uses OpenGL for video sync and video output, and while it lacks a few features of the Judder Test for Windows, it has a few other features I've never seen anywhere else.

I would welcome the input of anyone who has worked with the Judder Test for Windows.

Find out all about it here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=625481) in the HTPC - Linux Chat forum. That thread has a link to the Judder Test for Linux home page.

Please direct your comments and suggestions to the thread linked above.

sanderdvd

04-01-06, 08:35 AM

Hi all,

I m new with Juddertest. First problem I m dealing with is:
When I start judder test on my 1280x720 pj he starts running ok without drops BUT......: I can t get out of the program! I ve tried every sort of keyboard combinations (Q, ALT+TAB, CNTR+ALT+DEL, ALT+F5 etc.) but my systems hangs. Even my mouse does not move anymore. Strangely enough juddertest keeps running. I let it run for 3 minutes to see if it Quits autom. than but without result. So I had to push my on/off swith on my computer. Rebooted and tried it again for a few times but without result.....

Can anyone help here?

maxleung

04-01-06, 02:16 PM

In the bottom right corner there is a Time Limit field.

Bignickfly

04-01-06, 06:23 PM

Esc works for me

leinsterman

04-16-06, 12:50 PM

Hi,

I'm not too familiar with judder test but I am trying to use it to get my Panasonic TH42PV500 set up with a Radeon 9800 pro graphic card using the VGA input.

The following is my powerstrip string setting - 1360,56,136,256,768,5,3,27,86239,2

I had the application running, and used it to get everything just perfect ... then for some unknown reason I lost my settings following a reboot ...

Now when I try to run jddertest I get the following error -

"Failed to run judder test.

Failed while waiting for vertical blanking."

Does anyone know what is causing this runtime failure ?

Has anyone got a better setting for powerstrip for this plasma ?

I watch both NTSC & PAL content ... but the display will not operate below 55Hz ... how do I set it for PAL ?

BTW ... this is my first post ... hello and thanks in advance for any help, and forgive the newbie silly questions ... I am learning lot of new things here ... :rolleyes:

maxleung

04-16-06, 08:28 PM

leinsterman

04-17-06, 05:02 AM

Welcome to AVS!

It seems your videocard settings may have been messed up - perhaps vertical resync needs to be re-enabled?

Failing that, you may need to install Driver Cleaner Pro (check with Google!), uninstall the ATI drivers, reboot, run Driver Cleaner Pro with ATI selected, reboot, then install your ATI display drivers again.

Then again, the above may not work. Good luck!

Thanks ...

This is getting strange ... got up this morning ... can't remember what I did but ... judder test now works !!!

I think it may have been due to an adjustment I made to ATI catalyst 3d settings ... there is an option "wait for vertical refresh" which I set to always off ... but I can't be sure.

I now have the display set up so that it does not drop any frames in a 60s test .. but I notice some tearing about 1/3 distance from the top of the screen ... it is not that visible with bar speed 1 but from 2 upwards it starts to become very visible ... I tried adjusting front porch, back porch, vertical frequency, plasma clock phase, plasma clock but it seem difficult to adjust out ... it may be fine, but any advice ?

Here is my best powerstrip string - 1360,56,136,256,768,6,3,23,85919,2

Judder is a great tool by the way .. not only is it good for adjusting your screen ... but for those of us learning it gives a great idea how video displays work. Thanks to the author ...

Just a suggestion but ... if you are not accepting money for it why not set up a voluntary donation to charity via pay pal or something ... give people the option to express their gratitude...

arca

04-17-06, 11:12 AM

leinsterman,

I tried your powerstrip timing (I have a 9800 pro too). The problems you're experiencing may be because you're not close enough to 59.94 Hz. Try this one and see if the tearing goes away:

1360,56,136,264,768,6,3,19,86645,2306

It's true that you can't have vertical blanking at "always off" in the Catalyst settings while running JudderTest.

Your idea for charity via paypal is a good one. I don't want to charge money for JudderTest, because it's actually a simple piece of software, and also it puts pressure on me to continue improving it. It seems I can't even bring myself to fix the little problems still in it. It just sucks to spend one's free time coding when it's also a dayjob. :)

maxleung

04-17-06, 11:12 AM

Personally, I'd love JudderTest to go Opensource and also accept donations - I'd love to add a 3:2 pulldown simulation to it. :)

I think you will have to find a different refresh rate to eliminate tearing too. It will take a lot of trial and error to find the right frequency.

I suggest starting with 59.94 hz - that is the standard NTSC refresh rate.

EDIT: Arca beat me to it. Thanks again for the excellent software! It's also a great way to test if any background processes are interfering - if JudderTest is reporting too many dropped frames start removing processes or services. :)

arca

04-17-06, 11:20 AM

EDIT: Arca beat me to it. Thanks again for the excellent software! It's also a great way to test if any background processes are interfering - if JudderTest is reporting too many dropped frames start removing processes or services. :)
Yes, background processes are so annoying! I use my HTPC for everything and now and then some process decides to check for updates, upload a spy report, etc. I wish I had a tool that would let me see which processes were active the last 5-10 seconds...

leinsterman

04-18-06, 03:56 PM

Yes, background processes are so annoying! I use my HTPC for everything and now and then some process decides to check for updates, upload a spy report, etc. I wish I had a tool that would let me see which processes were active the last 5-10 seconds...

Is there nothing at sysinternals_com to monitor process activity in real time with minimal CPU/RAM load ?

... I tried the settings you gave me for powerstrip, thanks... Definite improvement, Frequency is spot on but still a little tearing ... will have to play around to see if I can get it any better. At least there is no frame loss ...

Perhaps the best thing to do it use the HDMI input on the plasma rather than the VGA. But there are pro's and con's to that too ... not least the fact the Panasonic don't recommend it.

... one conclusion I am starting to believe ... this stuff is still the domain of tech savvy and/or hobbyist ... Microsoft HTPC's are not really ready for mass market ...

Lets see how they do with Vista .. I await with scepticism ... and probably my next PC will be a Mac!

arca

04-25-06, 07:49 AM

Is there nothing at sysinternals_com to monitor process activity in real time with minimal CPU/RAM load ?
Not that I can see. They show start-time, total cpu time and they sort by name or the like, but no "last active time". I have fired off an email to sysinternals to hear what they say.

EDIT: Received a reply already. No such information is tracked by Windows!

thekochs

09-28-06, 04:38 PM

Newbie here............I have a Sony VPLHS20 PJ which I use PowerStrip to achieve the 56Hz refresh required timing for 1368x768 1:1 native rez support. The Sony EDID only goes to 1024x768....ugh. Anyway, I'm using TheaterTek 2.x with FFDShow 2X resize & filters with SP-DIF audio pass-through to AV amp/receiver. I do not use reclock and my DVDs (NTSC) are stored on HDDs for playback. I currenly don't see much Judders or Stutters but I've also dropped my FFDShow settings so my P4 2.8Ghz CPU is only at ~ 40% usage on playback. I have a Radeon 9600XT with Cat6.7 drivers thru a DVI-D link to PJ.

So, here is my question........how do I setup/config JudderTest for the above ? I guess I'm not catching the meanings of the settings, etc. ? What am I looking for ?

Also, I looked at Reclock as a way to see what was happening on my HTPC but I notice its real trick/focus is to sync the frame rate to the refresh rate to eliminate audio sync issues.....well my ~ 56Hz HS20 allows me little latitude for refersh change to achieve 1368x768 and I didn't want to install Reclock when currently I don't have audio lip sync issues.

Please help a newbie on setup tutorial....I've read the thread and guess I'm a little dense.

Thanks !

maxleung

09-28-06, 09:11 PM

thekochs

09-28-06, 10:16 PM

Juddertest needs to have Powerstrip installed, otherwise it won't run.

I suggest setting the bar speed to 5 or 10 when doing your test - I find that is the best speed for finding stutter/tearing when trying out different frequencies.

Also, be careful that you don't mistake stutter due to frame drops versus stutter because of a refresh rate mismatch. Juddertest is EXTREMELY sensitive to whatever is running on your PC - frame drops can occur so watch out for those! Too many and you will see what looks like stutter - you will need to eliminate any framedrops because of background programs first before you can verify that your projector is in sync with your videocard.

I'm not sure how Reclock can help you with such an oddball refresh rate on that projector.

Would you mind outlining a quick setup/config tutorial and what to look for ? I'm trying to read the thread and no real detail. I have not installed so maybe it is straight forward but was looking for a quick how-to for NTSC analysis.

As far as Reclock....I don't have lip sync issues....believe it or not with 56Hz refresh and NTSC playback but I was going to install to view the frame drop analysis function. Looks like JudderTest may be easier/better without inducing other factors that ReClock might.

Anyway, any help would be appreciated.

maxleung

09-28-06, 10:22 PM

thekochs

09-29-06, 03:23 PM

Just extract the zip file into a directory. Make sure Powerstrip is running.

Run Juddertest. It should automatically pull the timings from Powerstrip. Select the desired bar speed - try 5. Leave everything else alone.

Click on the "Judder Test" button. Watch the green bars scroll by. They should scroll smoothly with no hiccups or tearing.

Also watch the frame drop counter - if everything is perfect it should stay at 0. If you get one or two, but it never goes up after that, then you are probably okay - this means there aren't any background processes that are interfering with Juddertest.

If there are no frame drops, and you see stutter or tearing, that means the videocard's refresh rate isn't perfectly synced with your projector. You will have to adjust the timings - it will take trial and error! The closer you are, the less frequent the stutter/tearing will be.

My criteria is that there should be no stutter or tearing for at least 5 minutes. Staring at these bars for 5 minutes can be a challenge though - watch your health! :D

Thank You !

Question.....this whole thread talks about the fact that PJs and HDTVs are fixed frequency. I take it means at a certain rez. Example, my undocumented, un-EDID 1368x768 1:1 rez at 56Hz for the Sony VPLHS20. So, if in fact this is truly fixed the thread shows folks as you say "tweeking" the PS timings. I guess my question is that "fixed" means kinda-fixed around the 56Hza until it doesn't sync ? If so, how much % up and down around the "fixed" frequency is there typically ?

maxleung

10-01-06, 11:41 PM

Usually the video refresh rate that you tweak is slightly different from the display's refresh rate - usually because of variances in the hardware. For example, some people have their videocard's output 60.1 hz instead of 60.00 hz because one (or both!) of the device's video clocks are very slighly off. Nothing is perfect!

My wild guess, based on my very very limited experience with displays (a 19" CRT monitor and a Benq 8700+ DLP projector) is that your refresh rate can be within .02% (point zero two) and you couldn't tell the difference.

If you are off by 1% you WILL notice a stutter/tear however. Here is a formula for predicting when a stutter will occur:

Take the refresh rate of your video card and subtract the refresh rate of your display. Invert the value and that will be how many seconds the video will play smooth before stuttering.

For example, if your display expects 60.000 hz at 1280x720 (like my Benq 8700+), but you told the videocard to output a refresh rate of 59.94 hz, then you will get a stutter at:

1 / (59.94 hz - 60.00h z) = 16.6666s (ignore the negative sign)

So you will get a stutter at around every 17 seconds, even though it is only off by .1%!

If your videocard's clocks is perfectly accurate, AND the input clock of your display is also perfect, then you will not get a stutter if the refresh rates match perfectly.

thekochs

10-04-06, 09:04 AM

Just extract the zip file into a directory. Make sure Powerstrip is running.

Run Juddertest. It should automatically pull the timings from Powerstrip. Select the desired bar speed - try 5. Leave everything else alone.

Click on the "Judder Test" button. Watch the green bars scroll by. They should scroll smoothly with no hiccups or tearing.

Also watch the frame drop counter - if everything is perfect it should stay at 0. If you get one or two, but it never goes up after that, then you are probably okay - this means there aren't any background processes that are interfering with Juddertest.

If there are no frame drops, and you see stutter or tearing, that means the videocard's refresh rate isn't perfectly synced with your projector. You will have to adjust the timings - it will take trial and error! The closer you are, the less frequent the stutter/tearing will be.

My criteria is that there should be no stutter or tearing for at least 5 minutes. Staring at these bars for 5 minutes can be a challenge though - watch your health! :D

Well, I ran the test and it seems to perform fine....however, really haven't tried at length. Some questions.
1) How do you exit from the test ? I tried ESC, ALT+F4, no luck.
2) The bars in my limited test seem to progress smooth with no stutter or tearing. However, the right edge of the bar is a little "fuzzy". Is this normal of the motion or is the bars supposed to be rock soild green rectangles ?
3) I see the timings and refresh but I thought this test showed not only my PS timings from the HTPC to PJ but what the PJ was actually driving internally the LCDs at ? I realize the test itself is showing any effect of the difference but I thought there was some OSD label to show both Hz refresh rates ?

Lastly, as FYI to other readers I found my Sony VPLHS20 that requires 56Hz refresh for 1368x768 support has a sync/out-of-sync range of 1Hz...basically 55.9Hz to 56.9Hz.

Thanks.

maxleung

10-04-06, 10:43 AM

1) Press Q.
2) The fuzziness may be an artifact of the projector. They are supposed to be perfectly smooth on a perfect display. I wouldn't worry about it as long as you have 1:1 pixel mapping.
3) It is impossible for the PC to know what the projector is driving the panel at. You will only see what Powerstrip thinks the videocard is outputing at. Remember, clock crystals on the videocard can differ from what Powerstrip displays, and the clock crystals in your projector can also have error.

The goal of Juddertest is to ensure, visually, that the refresh rates of the PC and the display match. When they match you eliminate stutters/tears.

It is possible for displays to automatically sync with input devices, within a certain range. If you run Juddertest using a multisync CRT monitor, it should always be perfectly smooth no matter what refresh rate you choose. It is very rare for a digital display to do the same however.

Have fun. :)

thekochs

10-05-06, 02:31 PM