Here are some of the pics from my recent labor to improve on the already very good Misty Evening paint (introduced by CMRA). FYI: I currently use a DIY 94" screen painted Misty Evening and it is a vast improvement over the older Dalite DaMat 1.1 screen (78").

My efforts have been to help further improve the blacks without hurting the whites - sorta like the ddog solution of earlier this year. And because I'm not a big painting guy, I wanted something that was doable by rolling instead of spraying. I tried a few variations of ddog, but the rolling is a severe limiting factor when attempting this solution (as other have pointed out in numerous threads).

The ddog improved the brightness enough that I was intrigued, but - in MY application - the blacks weren't significantly improved to be worth the effort. You can see some of those screenshots in Joe P's Ddog vs ME thread. However, after discussions with some other folks here, I decided to try an "overcoat" or topcoat of the ddog over the Misty Evening (instead of the Behr UPW).

Those results were also disappointing because of the rolling (again) but also in that they didn't seem to improve on much, but introduced a pretty limiting viewing cone. NEXT! Further discussions led a few of us to propose a "one-coat" solution using ME and the components of the ddog formula.

And here we are. I tried a few different formulations, but the earliest weren't sufficient to even take screenshots. Next (and currently) I tried to up the amount of glaze and clear flat base for an ultimate formulation of:
33% Faux glaze
32% clear flat base
20% Misty Evening
15% Silver metallic

I painted that over one of the earlier attempts (that gave not-too-different-results from plain ME). I felt this was worth the effort of posting screenshots and some in-depth analysis. I hope you agree.

Pic #1: Daylight shot of ME on left and One-coat formulation on the right.

Moving on to actual movies, I've chosen several to illustrate the improvement in whites with no deterioration in black levels. Not exactly what I was shooting for, but wait till you see how the whites improve. And imprtantly, there is very little viewing cone introduced using this one-coat formula.

One IMPORTANT note: these shots are calibrated for the one-coat panel, not the ME. The difference in settings on my pj was minor, but still present. I took a few shots to see if I could show a difference, but the results were insignificant. So I preface these pics with this remark: the ME side (left) is down in white by about 2 levels for my TW100 (using the Avia disc). Not dramatically different, but different nonetheless. And the black level was not changed. Same with the color settings.

So pic 2: toward the beginning of Gladiator. You can see the difference in the blue sky which appear slightly darker - and not exclusively due to the lower white level. More details later in some white scenes.

Another one from Gladiator showing skin tones.

I am gladiator. Note the nearly invisible line and the lack of difference in blacks on either side. Whites improve.

Take that! Another more white sky shot. Really where it's most evident is in sky and white shots. Can't wait to see a hockey game in HD.

Enough of the Gladiator? How about one more. This is similar to one CMRA posted last night using his Olympic 2100 camera. I forgot to mention that I'm using a Fujifilm 2600 (2.0 Mp).

This is another with skintones, but more shadowy.

Moving on to some animation: Toy Story 2 (one of my demo favorites that we showed to a bunch of friends last night).

First is a shot of the Pixar opening. Again shows the brightness difference in the blue field.

More Toy Story 2.

Brightness difference in an animated dusk sky. Again, notice that the blacks do not suffer while brightness improves.

One more showing the white difference. This is similar to another shot I posted in the Ddog vs. ME thread. That shot showed improved blacks while this one shows much improved whites. I'm trying to get both in one shot.

And the dream lives on...

Great job! Looks very promising.

How are you measuring out your paint that you can say "33%", "32%", etc? What would you say your margin of error is (1%, 2%, etc)?

scoob5555:
I know screen shots are tough to really show the images but from what I can see, your formula is better (and dare I say significantly) than plain ME.

I found your images not only brighter but also the colors (especially the dusk sky) were warmer. What about sheen? Is it shiny with hot spots? Does it roll on easily? Do you use a foam roller?

What projector do you have?
Thanks.

First off, my measurements are very rough and probably closer to +-5% since I'm really doing it by eye and making a batch at a time. When I need to change the formula, I generally mix in the tray and guestimate the actual percentages. I've gotten better at it (with all this practice), so these are probably close enough since it's mixing a gray with silver - not the white and silver where even 5% difference means a significantly difference result.

Also failed to mention that there is no sheen/shimmer/hot-spotting.

It rolls much easier, though you still have to watch out not to over-work it too long. I got few of the ddog roller problems using my foam roller, and it was much easier to correct when it happened.

Overall, it's almost as easy as ME to apply, though application takes a bit longer to mix and apply. Based on my experience thus far, this one looks the best without adding a huge amount of effort to the basic ME.

What's the basecoat beneath this formula?

This time around it was one of the previous overcoat attempts: approx 40% ME, 30% SM, 15% Clear flat base, 15% faux glaze

I will attempt to paint the other panel straight ME and then reproduce my one-coat formula on top. Kinda hard to call it a one-coat solution if there are 2 coats, but you get the idea.

I hate to be the one to stomp on your balloon, but I plainly see Screen Door in all your 'lightened' photos. Both increasing reflectability AND having a screen shade lighter than the LCD pixel grids invites trouble (SDE) when PJs have the resolution and sharpness characteristics they posses these days. I'm sure however that the mix would perform wonderfully with any decent DLP unit, or LCDs with Micro Lens Display.

Good. Very Good. But not quite up to dethroning ME for Best All Around."

My turn soon!

I love it...that blue tint is gone and somehow you've improved the contrast as well as the clarity. looks like a real winner!

MM-
You give my camera way too much credit. I noticed what you call the screendoor in several of my (close to 100) shots - but in reality it was a weird moire effect that somehow was caught in the interaction between the screen and my camera. I pitched many of the shots because of this. I will testify that the SDE is nearly invisible in the real-world viewing environment - and is no different from the ME.

Look at OC-ts6 and tell me there's SDE. Not there - simply a strange camera effect. Probably because it's only 2.0 Mp, but who knows...

Once again, at first blush, I was taken back. However, I really can't determine how much your mix enhances ME from your screen shots. For illustration, please compare these 'same scene' screen shots. My ME just doesn't look like your ME. Could there be that much difference between cameras?
Your screen shot first:

Ok, here's my screen shot. Scoob, what can you make of this? How close are your screen shots to what you see on your screen? Your shots make ME look like dirty dingy grey? Please compare side by side and respond.

Originally posted by scoob5555
MM-
You give my camera way too much credit. I noticed what you call the screendoor in several of my (close to 100) shots - but in reality it was a weird moire effect that somehow was caught in the interaction between the screen and my camera. I will testify that the SDE is nearly invisible in the real-world viewing environment - and is no different from the ME.]

Moire is caused by the interaction of the cameras resolution limitations, and THE EXISITANCE of Horizontal and/or Vertical lines. Ifin' dey aint dere, de Morie woodnst bee nyther. But read on....there is still hope.

QUOTE]Originally posted by scoob5555
Look at OC-ts6 and tell me there's SDE. Not there - simply a strange camera effect. Probably because it's only 2.0 Mp, but who knows... [/QUOTE]

Specifically, the Fuji 2600 is NOT a true 2.0 Megpixel camera, (..technology that's almost 4 yrs old) but one that uses a special CCD that interpolates the actual pixels captured to increase sharpness. Over sharpen any image and some degree of moire what you get. You can reduce this effect by reducing your camera's resolution to 1/2, or even down to 640x480 to get down out of the Interpolation parameters. But really, to maintain the credibility of your SSs, you MUST go out and borrow a better Digital Camera.

So........., I'll grant you that much leeway, because the reality is that your mix does indeed improve on ME's performance. But why not try a almost pure Silver Metallic Glaze (4/5ths SMG - 1/5th Ultra pure white -Flat) then 2 thin topcoats of a reverse mixture? Keep the formula simple enough and gain both the benifits of SMG and UPW-F Using ME as a base is pointless. The rest of your mix (Glaze and Silver ) negates ANY effect ME might offer.

If you want to wait, I'll have no fewer than 3 screens done before this Wenesday along those lines. Other wise, "Keep on Rollin', Keep on Rollin', Roll with the Changes."

PS. Simplify matters by purchasing Silver Metallic Glaze pre mixed in the 'Depot's Faux paint section. Cut that mixture from there.

Where a side shot showing the degree of viewing angle available. I've seen no one match my results as of yet, and no one hase noted any discrepencies of any type in my SSs excepting the DLPs tendency to be less sharp at delivering an image. I've found that strange. Even with CMRA's understandable reluctance to dilute his own discovery's fame, I'd think the rest of you all would plainly see the difference. No Blueing, true colors and skin tones, and 170 degree veiwing cone.

Scoob555,

See? CMRA fearlessly comes forward to the lines of battle. and his gun (statement) has a heavy load of validity. BIG difference in image brightness, and you can bet it IS because of the camera. If not, ya'll better chuck that mix.

Ooops. There IS that darn 'ol blueing in the brighter image though, CMRA, but as I've said before, it's really not noticable unless you really look past the brightness of the image, or in worst case secnairios of White on White detail.

CMRA-
I think the difference may be the camera mainly, but also the pj. Haven't seen direct comparisons between the Z1 and the TW100 (using the same camera, etc) but I dare say that camera makes most of the difference.

In the future I'll try to lower the resolution of the pics instead of shrinking the high res pics to fit on this site. I've never directly compared the pics to the actual, but I've always had the impression (after using for about 2 years) that the images are nice but stark somehow. Colors are not especially vivid, but unusually washed out. I'm just used to the look of the pics.

Again, these images were not to deride ME in anyway. I only wanted to show the potential enhancements of my formulation over the basic ME. I think the changes are good and worthwhile - especially considering the minimal effort over and above the standard ME application.

MM-
I can wait for awhile. I'm redoing this formulation on top of a standard ME base this week, but I'd like to try one panel of your mix to compare those. As I mentioned, I'd still like to improve the blacks more.

I will try some shots at lower res to see if I can get rid of the moire effects (never had the issue previously as far as I remember).

For the viewing cone, the shift is very gradual and not especially upseting. In our room, it's not an issue unless your walking to your seat or standing next to the screen. In all seating positions, there is no shift.

Look forward to seeingsome good shots from your new screens. Use a tripod!

Scoob, I think you're onto something, keep up the good work! I am REALLY glad you are posting split screens, as I think that should provide a much more objective means for comparison than trying to derive an opinion from full screenshots.

Eric.

MississippiMan,
Can you refresh our memories of what your formula is? I'm sure it's back in these threads somewhere but a repost would be helpful. I also agree that ME seems a bit too blue.

Also, as I juste posted in another thread. The HDs in Connecticut no longer carry Metallic SIlver. I imagine other HDs will follow suit. Is there an alternative? Lowes carriers a metallic silver paint in their faux section but I don't know if it is similar to the Behr product.

The mix is variable based on PJ's luminosity. type, and any ambient lighting considerations.

Could wind up anything from a 'greyish' off white, to light grey, to such a dark grey you'd think it wouldn't work.

Just relate the requested facts and I'll respond accordingly.

..but, the Base is always 4/5th SMG, and 1/5th Ultra Pure White -Flat.

Any Silver Metallic Glaze will do, it doesn't have to be Beir. Ditto with the UPW -F Everyone is just used to the convienence of shopping at HD. But hit any Sherwin Williams and I betch they'll have it!

MM,

Sorry to barge in - but your offer intrigued me. I just dived into a home theatre concept in my basement refinishing project. Bought a used PJ. It's a Sharp XG-E1200U. Just now plotting the screen and I am very sure I will try a DIY one. I am pretty sold on ME right now (from this and other threads) on a fiber board surface, but I am recognizing that my old PJ is no Z1 and I will be dealing with a little less light and contrast definition. That said, I'd sure like to hear an opinion that may maximize what I have. ANy thoughts?

I'll open this to anyone with a good opinion. Don't mind trying a few (probably will try ME as well).

Vas

MM-
I have a Sharp DT200 Theago DLP projector. It has 600 lumens and a contrast ratio of 1200:1.

John

On a whim, last night I painted one of my panels with an equal parts mix of 25% of glaze, clear flat base, ME, and SM. It was reminiscent of ddog - it rolled poorly.

Tonight I viewed it against my ME screen and, amazingly, there was almost no discernable difference between the two! The color of the test panel was similar to the ddog colr - and quite different from ME. But the differences were negligible.

Just goes to show how good Misty Evening really is all by itself.

Tonight I was able to paint my ME panel with my formula (more accurate % mix this time). Give it a day or two to cure and I'll compare again. Stay tuned.

What made you come up with that mixture? Too bad you didn't try my suggestion. You could have tried both the base, then the Base / Overcoat together. All you did was to polute / dilute ME with an unevenly balanced mixture of vairiables.

If you do ever use a much stronger mix of MSG, (don't use glaze mixed in seperatly!) be sure to lightly wet sand the finish.

MM-
I'm still not sure what you mean when you say SMG. When I got my metallic silver at HD, I bought Metallic Silver (#748). Doesn't say anything about glaze added and it's thick and gloopy. I didn't see any other Metallic Silver mixes.

That mix was just a whim when I was mixing. The thinking was: what could be easier than an equal parts mix of 4 components? Hard to screw that up. Unfortunately, it wasn't worth the effort.

After I confirm my formula (tonight or tomorrow) I will try your formula on one of the panels. I just need clarification on your SMG basecoat.

Thanks, Scoob

I need to ask. I think I have seen (maybe by scob5555) posted that they painted with a mixture of:

The current try was:
33% Faux glaze
32% clear flat base
20% Misty Evening
15% Silver metallic
etc....

Is that right? Did home depot mix it for you?

Another dumb question.... is that four seperate paint cans?

Sorry I know that is dumb, but I am still learning here.

Craig,

That is the current mix I'm using. I am mixing myself (using a glass measuring cup) and in small batches - just enough for one or two panels.

And another yes: these are separate cans (quarts) of paint. I bought the Silver metallic #748 and the faux glaze #743 from the specialty paints section at Home Depot. Also bought the Misty Evening there (using the Glidden Evermore indoor/outdoor Masonry/Stucco base #1). The clear flat base is from WalMart - color place #5053. You should also get a primer or good white paint for the base coat(s). And I use the 6" foam roller from HD, too - it eats much less paint than standard rollers and I can control the evenness more easily.

By all means start slowly with the Misty Evening. It's good enough for most people and is still good enough for me (while I hash out this one-coat ddog-like formulation, at least).

Good luck and stay tuned.

CMRA-
I re-revisited your Gladiator shot (hand grabbing the arrow) and took another shot at lower res on my camera. Comparing mine with yours I think I have an additional theory on the differences: your pj is setup to be brighter somewhat than mine. I can't say which is actually better (to each his own, etc) but I've attached a pic that shows pretty well what I'm seeing, though the image is slightly darker in the pic than actual viewing onscreen.

I ask that you compare to yours with this in mind: the gladiators have been training and competing outdoors for months, during the summer months in the desert. Max should be significantly more tan than he appears in your shot and probably not as tan as he appears in mine.

What do you think?

Originally posted by scoob5555
MM-
I'm still not sure what you mean when you say SMG. When I got my metallic silver at HD, I bought Metallic Silver (#748). Doesn't say anything about glaze added and it's thick and gloopy. I didn't see any other Metallic Silver mixes.

After I confirm my formula (tonight or tomorrow) I will try your formula on one of the panels. I just need clarification on your SMG basecoat.



Whoa. Sometimes ya gotta admit to a goof. I went to Home Depot today and bought 3 different mixes & Silver Metallic. Note I did not add "glaze" because today I noticed that although the SM is located on the same shelf, and beside other true Glazes, it itself is not a glaze. Unless you look at it closely and it sure looks "glazy" to me.:rolleyes: But I do feel pretty :mad: about it all. I should'nt have been wearing my :cool: in the store.

I got ME, and two custom mixes as well a SM, which will be dilluted with another color not ME.

That's four different screens, and after I get them all up and glowing, I'll then paint a single piece of parkland with all four mixes and line 'em up for your pleasue and edification.:D

Originally posted by scoob5555
CMRA-

I ask that you compare to yours with this in mind: the gladiators have been training and competing outdoors for months, during the summer months in the desert. Max should be significantly more tan than he appears in your shot and probably not as tan as he appears in mine.

What do you think?

Now that's a redo! A little brighter and you'll put me out of business! BTW, keep up the good work. Don't think for a moment it's not appreciated.

Originally posted by scoob5555
CMRA-
I can't say which is actually better (to each his own, etc) but I've attached a pic that shows pretty well what I'm seeing, though the image is slightly darker in the pic than actual viewing onscreen.

What do you think?

The more I study your screenshot the more I like it. Hey, who knows, you may have just created ME-plus! I have to wonder how LCD would look with its SDE limitation.

RE: SDE
If I move closer than my standard viewing distance (about 12') I can start to see screendoor, but as long as I'm at 1.5x or greater than screen width (82"), it's not noticeable.

I would love to see this with a DLP and even better CR.

scoob5555,

Amazing! Are you using the Z1?

All-

I project with the Epson TW100 (800:1 CR model). I have it set to the Theater mode and usually use the skin tone setting of 3 (but 2 looks pretty good sometimes, too). The color decoder is very good on this model so I do not have any tweaks to the colors at all. The only settings I need to adjust (for damat white or Misty Evening) are white and black levels.

I recommend this pj for everyone, but this is not the forum for that, so that's all I'll say.

Scoob5555,

Can you describe what is the colour of the mixed paint? Did the greenish of ME remove? Is the colour of the mixed paint lighter than ME or darker?

Scoob5555,

Let us know the final ingredients and percentages. This screen shot is hard to believe. I'm not one for overstatements. I believe when my Z2 finally arrives (if ever) this will be the mix. From what I've been hearing the screendoor effect is all but eliminated in the Z2 and with your screen's color reproduction accuracy it will be a easy choice. Thanks for the screen shots and effort!

Scoob5555,
Tonight I prime. Tomorrow I plan to paint. Right now I think I will go with you ME+ formula:

33% Faux glaze
32% clear flat base
20% Misty Evening
15% Silver metallic

I have a foam roller as well as a very short nap mohair roller which I also read does a great job with tricky mixes. I'll try both to see what works best. Did you lightly wet sand afterward to kill any sheen or is the screen good to go as is?

You've made me a believer AND even seems to be closing in on the coveted CMRA seal of approval.

DIP-

Color of the mix is pretty gray. If you look closely, it looks, not surprisingly, a lot like a silver suspension in slightly off-white paint. It looks grayer than ME when dried.

FlawlessOne-

I'm sticking with the mix shown above by Johnstof.

Johnstof-

I hadn't sanded these practice panels, but I will do so for the repaint of the real screen, per MM's instruction.

Then I will, inevitably try MM's formulation on a test panel. Unless, that is, MM beats me to it and posts some comparison shots with ME and/or the ME+ formula.

I have to jump in for an update I have tried the pure ME solution, and played with my own mix of ME and silver metallic Glaze. See the "a better grey screen" thread for details.

I gave up on trying to get my 50/50 SM/ME mix SM glaze overcoat right. I think it has some promise, but I just don't have the time to keep trying.

I did however break down and roll a slightly modified coat of Scoob's hybrid. All I can say is WOW. I had a few people over (general public, not picky AVS forum types) last night and they all commented on how much sharper the pictured looked on it vs the 50/50 mix I have on another screen. The picture was very bright with great contrast and color. It didn't work quite as well with ambient light as my 50/50 mix, but overall this is a great solution as far as I am concerned.

I went with approx

30% faux glaze
30% clear flat base
20% ME
20% SM

I hate to say it, but I think I am satisfied with this solution....
.... for now. :D

I've been following these ME threads with interest and now it's time to jump in. A bonehead question, tho. The "clear, flat base"... Is that a Glidden product? I saw "flat, accent base" at WalMart - is that the same? It's kinda milky. Thanks for any opinions .
w

Dubya-
Clear flat base I'm using is from WalMart and is the Color Place #5053. It looks milky white, but it dries completely colorless and transparent. I'm sure Glidden makes one, too, but I got this one from the ddog thread and it works. And it's cheaper than the Glidden stuff by $2-3.

m3wannabee,
What did you paint this mix over, what was the base coat? I picked up all the ingredients last night from HD and am planning on trying a few different mixes this weekend.
If I can figure out my new HVLP gun, I'm going to do a ddog mix, also straight ME, and then this new ME/ddog mix. I've even picked up a few cans of silver metallic paints that I'm going to try, just for fun.
I'm planning on a flat white base coat of Kilz for all the projects, but if I don't need to on this mix, it will make it a little easier.

Wow, great job Scoob and others. I have a 10' drywall ME screen now that I am happy with. But, like all of us, I know anything can be improved! After I work on suspending my HS10 from our cellar ceiling tomorrow my next project is to paint 1/2 of my drywall screen with Scoob's ME+ and compare it to CMRA's ME. I am struggling with getting good shots with my Canon A20 3.3 but will try my best! I suppose a tripod would help.

John in Northern NY

Omzig,

I rolled my ME+, if that is what we are going to call it, on top of a 50%ME/50%Silver Metallic undercoat. Funny enough there are probably five or six layers of experimental paint total. I would suspect that a coating a primer followed by a plain coat of ME and then the ME+ would give you the same results.

He yall,

I am not very experienced in painting so I had a few questions. Once I go out and buy the do-able board, what do I do next? Do I sand it first, then apply a base for the actual ME+ mix? or do I just mix them all together and just paint and let it dry? Please help this dumb fella out. Thanks

If the surface is glossy, sand/scuff it and then prime with a Kilz2 coat or two. Then you can either paint with the ME+ mix or - as I've done - paint a base coat or two of just ME, then do the ME+ on top of that.

You may even try a base coat of Ultra Pure White (Flat or eggshell or satin) with the ME+ on top of that. That would be closest to the ddog formulation while remaining a lot easier to apply.

Looks like ME+ is going in the right direction. I sure would like to see it in direct comparison to my new screen shots of 'Finding Nemo' on page 10 of "CMRA posts misty grey screenshot".
MissMan, if your'e finished with that sandwich, I would really like some salvos from you too. I'm expecting great stuff.

Don't currently own Nemo, but will probably get for Christmas (not for me!).

MM won't be happy with more animation SS. But it can show how vivid colors can look on these DIY screens.

Playing Mr. Mom this weekend, so no time to paint or take SS.

Originally posted by scoob5555
[B
Playing Mr. Mom this weekend, so no time to paint or take SS. [/B]

Drats. And, I was really looking forward to some hybrid pix. Scoob, I really like what I have seen so far of ME+. You, my friend, are doing a fabulous job. So much so, I'm planning a trip to HD.
MissMan, this guy's on a roll. Will you lead or follow?

Originally posted by actonweber
Wow, great job Scoob and others. I have a 10' drywall ME screen now that I am happy with. But, like all of us, I know anything can be improved! After I work on suspending my HS10 from our cellar ceiling tomorrow my next project is to paint 1/2 of my drywall screen with Scoob's ME+ and compare it to CMRA's ME. I am struggling with getting good shots with my Canon A20 3.3 but will try my best! I suppose a tripod would help.

John in Northern NY

So, John, is it soup yet? Even without screen shots, what's your report? CMRA

It's a long story but it took all day to suspend the HS10 from the ceiling, move the HT components to a nice wall mount shelving system from Crutchfield and make a pasta dinner for 14 (real Sicilian stuff!). Won't get to the ME+ until Monday. But we did the new Lion King and a Jim Carrey flick for the family tonight and they were in awe of the pj and ME screen (a kickass sound system helps too.) More after Monday about the ME+.

John in Northern NY

Ok, here are a few shots taken at low resolution. ME+ on the right, ME on the left. The line between the two is invisible, but the difference is readily visible.

In these shots, the PJ is calibrated for ME+ side, but the difference between the panels is only a few notches of white level.

First, the ring.

And yet another from Gladiator. Check out Max's face.

And the last from Gladiator. SHows how good the brighter colors can look when you add a little silver.

Now back to painting and experimenting.

Alright, already.

Can't a guy go to Philly without losing his place in the universal scheme of things?

Well, I'm back. From the Netherworld, as it was. New Age mysticism, Crystals, Lines of Power.............., ... don't even ask.

Scoob,
So glad your discovering the "Silver Lining". As long as a sheen is avoided, and the surface is as smooth as possible, your results will always excede those of "lessor" potential. :p

But let's all remember, it's the quality of the image that's thrown upon the wall that allows the paint to shine. PJs that already have excellent Contrast ratios don't need as much assistance in the "Grey" end of the spectrum, yet they too receive benefits frim the "silver" effect simply because. as we all know, "Brighter is Better." A "VERY LIGHT" shade of grey (ME?) over a silver base will boost the viewing bightness level of any such PJ without harming subtle grey levels OR causing Hot spotting.

CMRA, don't take me to task for not contributing as of a late. Scoob is doing my light work for me, and a very fine job he's doing at that.

I'll be baaaaaaaaack.

With HD SSs from Terminator 2 via a 50-HD's DVI-D input, on a "Very Light Grey" screen paint mix with a "Very Slight Red Push" to it. Can Codes to follow.

Sometime tommorrow, hopefully.

Am I trying to show off or show anybody up? No Way!

I'm wit cha'all! If the SSs I show are matched by those of yours' from PJ systems costing thousands less, we all stand to benefit....don't we?

.and the DIY screens are the standard from which we make those comparisons. Right?

..just so we all are on the same page.

The side by side shots are really helpful in seeing the difference. Thanks for showing the comparison that way. I know the PJ is calibrated for the ME+ but still I find the difference compelling. I have ME on my screen right now (and it looks great) but that will soon just be serving as a base coat beneath the ME+. To my eyes you've made a great thing better.

I have 2 coats of kiltz2 followed by 3 coats of ME, what kinda ME+ mix should I use as a topcoat? (mix percentages)
Thanks for all your hard work guys, If I ever get this project done I will post some shots

Whitemist-
For now, go with a mix of around 30% of glaze, 30% silver, 20%ME, and 20% flat base. And make sure, if you're rolling, to use a light, even coat with unidirectional rolling (to avoid transition smudging).

And do take screenshots after you've allowed to dry and recalibrated your projector.

Incidentally, last night I tried yet another formula with more silver and flat base (and consequently less glaze and ME). Overall mix was around 50% Silver, 35% flat base, 10% glaze, and 5% ME. I tried to get as even as possible, but this much silver really screwed up rolling.

My thinking was to eliminate more glaze and fill in with flat base instead (to avoid ANY sheen from the glaze). Since it rolled and dried poorly, I'll use it as a base for a light coat of ME on top to see if that combo is better than ME alone. Probably not, but I don't want to waste the effort completely.

Next I'll try the silver base. MM- do you just roll the silver by itself? No glaze or flat base added? Seems like a bunch of the silver will get caught in the roller and wasted at the end. And that's expensive. Any further tips on this?

Originally posted by scoob5555
Incidentally, last night I tried yet another formula with more silver and flat base (and consequently less glaze and ME). Overall mix was around 50% Silver, 35% flat base, 10% glaze, and 5% ME. I tried to get as even as possible, but this much silver really screwed up rolling.

My thinking was to eliminate more glaze and fill in with flat base instead (to avoid ANY sheen from the glaze). Since it rolled and dried poorly, I'll use it as a base for a light coat of ME on top to see if that combo is better than ME alone. Probably not, but I don't want to waste the effort completely.

Next I'll try the silver base. MM- do you just roll the silver by itself? No glaze or flat base added? Seems like a bunch of the silver will get caught in the roller and wasted at the end. And that's expensive. Any further tips on this?

Scoob,

Yeah, ditch the Glaze altogether. It's what gumming up the works all the more. The Glaze it supposed to heighten sheen, so sanding it down makes it's contribution moot.

IMO, ME is great as it is, for those with little time and less patience, to achieve very acceptable results. But it's properties are redundant when featured with a silver application. In fact, the blue tint is not at all desirable when you increase the lumen's coming off the screen. That's been my direct observation. Contrast qualities with "white to white" shadow detail goes south, and CMRA himself admits that he must fiddle with the Gamma and Contrast on his just to get the results he does.

God bless him for being honest. So few are.

PJ adjustment is OK. But having to do much of it at all doesn't represent a truly neutral surface that combines the good attributes of several different screen concepts.

I advocate that ANY PJ can benefit from some degree of "High Gain" grey that doesn't offer "sheen" If the shade matches up with the performance values of the PJ, then the PJ should deliver EXCELLENT results when set to factory presets. Period.

To wit. I offer the following advice and instructions in detail to all those so inclined to accept a larger degree of "Sweat Equity" toward their DIY screen project. Please note: The following DOES apply to almost ANY properly prepped surface.

First Coat (over primed surface)
2/3rd Beir Silver metallic (Faux paint section)
1/3rd Beir Ultra Pure White -Flat-


2nd & 3rd Coats
1/4 Silver Metallic
3/4 Beir Ultra Pure White -Flat-
(ME advocates, you can cut the SM with the Me instead at this point if desired. Good luck.)

Smoothing a surface and wiping it, then paint application technique.

First of all, you want to start with as smooth and featureless surface as possible. Drywall, Parkland Polywall, Even Blackout Cloth is doable. For this explanation, Drywall will be the focus. If your wall is already painted, and has ANY degree of surface texture, you must wet sand it down to smooth.

Use a "Medium " Large Wet Sanding Sponge A bucket of water, and have several old towels at hand.

Soak the sponge, then squeeze out all the water you can by folding the sponge into you fist as you squeeze "ONCE". Just start squeezing and pull the sponge inward. You'll see.

A big part of the secret is to have just enough moisture in the sponge to suppress dust and prevent gouging streaks into the finish.

Using sweeping, gentle but firmly applied strokes about 3' in a line, go very each line about 3 -4 times and move on, overlapping as necessary. Don't over work the surface as you go, but do watch to see irregularities are being sanded down. Spot sand a big defect in a more vigorous, area defined sweep, but don't over do it.
(I'll say that a lot.)

Check you sponge after at least each 10 lines or so, better still, at first, just keep checking it after 10 sweeps to see how much paint is coming off, and in what pattern it's taking on the sponge. Adjust your pressure so that when you check, your sponge has a fairly even distribution of debris on it.
Watch for areas where you start seeing the underlying base coming out and STOP if you see that happening. If you create any disparity in the color or texture of the sanded finish, the next subsequent overcoat will have to be proportionately heavier to cover such an area. In "worse case" scenarios where you must sand down a major 'roller' ridge or paint run, (..you sloppy @^%^$^**$!!!) to the point your noticeably into the previous finish or raw drywall, then use a fine bristle brush to spot re-apply a coat of Primer or the Paint over that area (...then let dry) and wet sand it lightly before proceeding.

After you've got you area smooth to the eye and touch, let dry then wipe all dust off the surface before applying ANY finish of any type.

Roll on technique.

Materials needed:

2 - 1/4 " Nap "Lint Free" Rollers. (Best quality)
2 - 3/8" Nap "Lint Free" Rollers. (Best quality)
4' "Screw On " extension Pole

2 - Large "Roller" Paint Trays


IMPORTANT! When applying initial coverage of any type paint, use a firm, even amount of pressure..., but not too much. Heavy pressure will squeegee paint out of the roller, causing drips, runs, and ridges. So will uneven pressure to one side or the other of the roller.

First coat ( if applied to existing paint that has been Wet sanded)

Apply a even coat of the Beir Ultra Pure White -Flat as your Primer w/1/4" Nap Roller

Load the roller evenly, but heavily with paint. Twist the roller to a vertical position as you lift it up out of the Tray and swing it up to the wall with reasonable quickness. But DO put down a drop cloth.

Using vertical strokes, apply the first load of paint from about midway into the screen area up to the top edge of the screen area, than pull down through the paint to the bottom edge. Immediately return upward beside the previously painted path but overlap about a 1/4 of the roller's width onto the previously painted surface. Repeat this at least 1 more time without adding paint, and use some of the applied paint to maintain an even load on the roller by going over the previously painted surface and pulling some of the excess paint into the unpainted area. Repeat this method until you can see that your not getting enough paint onto a new area to accomplish complete uniformity of coverage.

Repeat.

After having dome about 3 sections of this, roll your roller on the Paint Tray's upper deck to thin out the remaining load on the roller. Then go over the entire previously painted area with LIGHT pressure to smooth out heavily painted areas and correct any runs and ridges. Continually thin the roller's paint load when ever it is apparent you've picked up enough paint off the wall that you are not removing any more, only re-rolling the area. Keep a sharp eye and a sense of feeling on the roller (...when it starts to feel slightly "sticky" on the wall as it rolls.), This is perhaps the trickiest thing of all, but very important in as much as it determines the thinness of your coat. DO not get rid of excess paint on the roller by rolling on the unpainted surface yet to be covered! This will make it very difficult for you to get an even coverage as the thinner the paint, the quicker it will dry, resulting in a heavier layering in those spots, This causes "shading' differences, especially when your covering a darker color with a lighter one.
The only solution is another light but "EVEN" coat The end result is that you will run short of paint on a larger wall screen app. (100"+) and have to mix more. My Advice? Mix more to begin with, and keep on workin'!


After having completed the first coat over the entire area, reduce the roller's paint load, then quickly but "VERY" lightly go over the entire area again using "LONG" unbroken diagonal strokes, starting at the bottom corner. You might even decide to do this Horizontally as well to achieve a straight boarder. Whatever you do, when you see the wall's coloration looking pretty even, GET AWAY FROM IT AND LET IT DRY !!!!!!! Wet Paint always shows more coverage irregularities than are really there. Once dry, you'll be amazed at how much better it will look. Any slight remaining defects will wet sand down easily.

Now your ready for the Silver Metallic / UPW -F mixture

There is no difference in application technique with either the Silver Metallic / Ultra Pure white -Flat mix or the 2 UPW -F Top Coats, excepting that if done right, you'll only need one coat of the SMG.

Apply and wet sand lightly each subsequent coat of UPW -F


......or for the very best results use a Gravity Feed Paint gun set to the finest "mist" you can get for all coats. This will greatly reduce the amount of wet sanding needed to create a "Non- Textured" finish. I've never bothered to use a GFPG, cause Rolling seems easy enough, and there is never a 'splatter.

Although many have advocated 'texture', the 'light scattering" effect it causes on High Contrast Grey surfaces skews the reflectivity too far to the extreme, darkening the image, and making results uneven. On Whiter, more reflective surfaces, the 'lensing' effect created by increasing the amount of texture will accentuate the tendency toward "Hot Spotting" and worse still, cut down on your available viewing angle. Only on the occasion when specifically, when this may be a good thing, is for Low Level Luminosity PJs at or under 800 lumens or when shooting an image in a higher ambient light situation. ME, a mix that augments the attributes of a low Lumen level LCD in a darkened room can't do nearly as well in ambient light. But "smoothness" of surface will always assure maximum reflect ability of ANY mix.

Ok, so I felt like typing this morning. So, sue me. :p

Originally posted by scoob5555
Incidentally, last night I tried yet another formula with more silver and flat base (and consequently less glaze and ME). Overall mix was around 50% Silver, 35% flat base, 10% glaze, and 5% ME. I tried to get as even as possible, but this much silver really screwed up rolling.

My thinking was to eliminate more glaze and fill in with flat base instead (to avoid ANY sheen from the glaze). Since it rolled and dried poorly, I'll use it as a base for a light coat of ME on top to see if that combo is better than ME alone. Probably not, but I don't want to waste the effort completely.

Next I'll try the silver base. MM- do you just roll the silver by itself? No glaze or flat base added? Seems like a bunch of the silver will get caught in the roller and wasted at the end. And that's expensive. Any further tips on this?

Scoob,
Why are you deviating from ME+? From the looks of your screen shots, it maintains the qualities of ME while improving the CR. What are you aiming for?

Originally posted by MississippiMan
IMO, ME is great as it is, for those with little time and less patience, to achieve very acceptable results. But it's properties are redundant when featured with a silver application. In fact, the blue tint is not at all desirable when you increase the lumen's coming off the screen. That's been my direct observation. Contrast qualities with "white to white" shadow detail goes south, and CMRA himself admits that he must fiddle with the Gamma and Contrast on his just to get the results he does.





I have to question, what is it you don't like about Scoob's ME hybrid? From what I can ascertain, it's ME with a better contrast ratio...and that's good, very good. BTW, do you find the phantom blue tint objectionable? On my latest screen shots?

CMRA-
I'm trying to avoid any sheen coming from the pj, or from any ambient light sources. I personally don't have a problem with either, but in the interest of science... Oh yeah, and I'm running out of the glaze I bought and wanted to see what the flat base could do instead. I figure since the silver only needs to be suspended (for it to impart it's dual properties of increasing brightness while shedding ambient light), why not suspend it in the flat stuff instead of the shiny stuff?

And I was so happy to be able to get down in my workshop, I was willing to try anything to stay down there. ; )

MM-
Thanks for the clarification on the layers. I will do this later this week and hopefully have time to compare yours versus ME and ME+. But it sounds like a lot more work than simple ME+.

Originally posted by CMRA
I have to question, what is it you don't like about Scoob's ME hybrid? From what I can ascertain, it's ME with a better contrast ratio...and that's good, very good. BTW, do you find the phantom blue tint objectionable? On my latest screen shots?

,
Blue is blue, and your whites are blue. So are the majority of your hot colors, and the earthtones are just a wee weak. Yes, you (..er, I) must be overly critical to notice, or even to care, but....you did ask.

Unless you opt to post "Factory Spec" screenshots with the PJ's settings set as such, then all ME has to offer is a 'acceptable" surface from which to work with. More than acceptable when you consider the cost.

You know I'm a Fan so don't sulk.

But remember, preview, and comment if you will on the fact that all my SSs were 'natural, unadulterated' examples of what was appearing on the screen direct from the PJ. NOT with ME, but simple Flat Whites w/Grey, and also SM overlayed with a ultra pure white mixed with a tiny amount of grey. ME does add something, but honestly, your PJ and camera only serve to make the whole string of SSs as good as they are. You yourself stated the actual image on the wall was not as good as the pics. Once again, I applaud such forthright honesty.

To your deference, here is a Hybrid "ME" mix that offers a little bit of all three worlds. I just put it up over a dark Grey screen that was the source for a 20-HD w/2200 lumens and 900:1 CR and now is accepting the image from a 50-HD with 1000 lumens and 1700:1 CR

Using Glidden Base @ Home Depot

Colorant OZ 48 96
B Lamp Black 0 1 0
F Red Oxide 0 0 1
KX White 0 12 0
D Thalo Green 0 0 1

There's a big disparity between the PJs I'm using and your little but mighty Z1 on all counts, pricing as well as specs, but as previously noted, many cannot see the need to pursue that level of performance if ME and other mixes can deliver results as good with less expensive gear.

The simple truth is that at 800 lumens, and 800:1 CR, the Z1 needs a "light" boost without sacrificing contrast. ME brightens the whites, and accentuates colors, but overall does little or less than little to augment luminosity.

Tonight I'll get and post some SSs from the 50-HD system, for what their worth toward comparison. But as for the future, set that excellent and affordable PJ on Default and post "the real story" so that ME can be judged accordingly. I don't think the difference will matter in the least, but at least you will have to do no explaining.

MM: I don't see the reasoning for spending all that money on the basecoat of silver mixed with white - ,the silver works out to be about $80/gal at HD, - then on top of that drowning out the base coat more with primarily a topcoat of white ??? If you are trying to achieve a translucent finish - you will only "muck up" the silver by adding the white to the mix PLUS covering with a topcoat of primarily white - The white isn't translucent - when you mix the white and silver - you get - you guessed it - GREY!!! Actually you get an irredescent GREY - because some of the metal flake does suspend and dry on top of the mix - giving it a brighter grey appearance - If you want that - take the misty evening and add some irredescent additive to it - they sell the irredescent additive at paint stores that sell Liquitex. That should "brighten" the misty evening.

Originally posted by scoob5555
MM-
Thanks for the clarification on the layers. I will do this later this week and hopefully have time to compare yours versus ME and ME+. But it sounds like a lot more work than simple ME+.

Never said it wasn't and therein lay my rooting for ME & ME+ derivitives.

It doesn't seem like all that much effort when you've done it several times, but still, next to priming a wall and then spreading a single uniform mix over that primer, it is more time consuming. But the results are worth it. Just be sure to match you "grey shade" in the Top Coat with your PJs luminosity or even the Silver Metallic underneath won't help bring back lost reflectability.

..and lastly, a little clarification:

a SM mix "under" a lighter 'flat' shade does more to enhance the image and luminosity that it does when applied in reverse. You get the brightning effect of both the lighter surface and the reflectability of the sub-surface working together. Anyone who has viewed a SilverStar knows what a Silver Surface does to the viewing angle. If you watch movies in a room where you cannot or seldom watch from anywhere but straight ahead of the screen, then fine. But I don't know of many circumstances where that's the case, especially within the narrow 60 degree or so cone a SS offers.

Originally posted by sportster64
MM: I don't see the reasoning for spending all that money on the basecoat of silver mixed with white

>>>>>......probably because you haven't ever seen the end results. That's understandable. Not so easy to understand are some of your following statements. <<<<<

,the silver works out to be about $80/gal at HD, -


>>>>>SM cost $16.00 a quart in Memphis. If your really inept, you might need two quarts. That's $32.00<<<<<<<

then on top of that drowning out the base coat more with primarily a topcoat of white ??? If you are trying to achieve a translucent finish - you will only "muck up" the silver by adding the white to the mix PLUS covering with a topcoat of primarily white - The white isn't translucent

>>>>>Guess again. (you are guessing, aren't you?) ALL paint is translucent to some degree. Every had trouble covering a dark color with a lighter one? <<<<<<<<<


- when you mix the white and silver - you get - you guessed it - GREY!!! Actually you get an irredescent GREY - because some of the metal flake does suspend and dry on top of the mix - giving it a brighter grey appearance

>>>>>>That's precisely the property that helps increase the screen's luminosity. If the mixture leans heavily toward the SM side to drastically increase luminosity levels, then the UPW overcoat both tempers the SM's perchant to create 'glare' while also augmenting the screen's overall reflect-ability. And it helps create a better Color balance as well. Hence, no Blue tint to whites. It's a fine line between working to improve "Blacks' while avoiding muting colors and crushing white levels. Ditto with increasing screen brightness while maintaining good contrast and NOT washing out colors. Did you not catch the part where the top coats of UPW were to be applied very thin?<<<<<<


- If you want that - take the misty evening and add some irredescent additive to it - they sell the additive at paint stores that sell Liquitex. That should "brighten" the misty evening.

>>>>>>That would be a 'glaring' mistake, and for you to suggest that tells me you haven't the experience with it to make such a statement. Everyone has the right to try what they think might work, but please, don't dismiss or disparage a method based on personal conjecture. Do so only with person experience, the you can do so with a vengeance if warranted.<<<<<

Once again I'll state. ME is a great option for those who cannot or will not take the time to improve on the end results available. The cost of my posted method in materials is very much in line with the DIY'ers mandate of "cheaper is better". Yes, ME can beat the SM & UPW mixes on both cost and convenience, but not on overall performance. (and not by much on cost at that.) It really only the effort that such a multi-layer finish takes that makes it a poor choice for the unskilled or unwilling.

Hey! Aren't those the Guys who ante up for a Mfg. screen anyway?:D
Let 'em eat Hawk Droppings, I say! :p ;) :D

Originally posted by MississippiMan
,


ME does add something, but honestly, your PJ and camera only serve to make the whole string of SSs as good as they are. You yourself stated the actual image on the wall was not as good as the pics. Once again, I applaud such forthright honesty.



Whoa, MissMan. A little clarification is in order. Only the blacks you see in my screen shots are enhanced. And remember, there's the loss of shadow detail because of it. Such is the nature of my digicam.
I want all readers of this thread and observers of my screen shots to know those pix are VERY close to what you'd observe viewing my setup. They are also unaltered except for resizing to oblige the forum rules. They do speak volumes about my Sanyo and ME screen. Let it be known if any member were to duplicate my setup he/she could expect results completely in line with what they witness in these screenshots.

MM - I can do math as well - here in the northeast its 20 bucks for less than a qt - 31oz- . yea - that right 80/gal !! Or from your point of view 40 if it takes 2 qts.

MM - you shouldn't assume so much - maybe you should do a little research yourself into the fogging technique that I worked on a few months back - then YOU will see that I have worked a lot with this silver stuff!
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=299852

To say that it makes it a translucent finish by covering it with a bright white finish is sketchy at best - if that were the case - I guess that you wouldn't be able to take and paint walls in your house another color as it would always be "translucent" and show the original paint color - NOT!!
You may be seeing the basecoat - but that has to do with the paint coverage technique - NOT the translucent effect of the paint - Again - the white paint is NOT a tranlucent paint

If this were the case I guess that autobody painters should stop using clearcoat finishes as they could achieve a translucent, depth perception by speading another color on top of the base color instead of using clearcoat finishes.
Look at FAUX glazing techniques - the glaze is the clear substrate - it allows the base to be seen once the topcoat dries. Try adding glaze to a screen or even a piece of wood - let it dry - guess what color it dries - thats right - it dries CLEAR -
If you think paint has a translucent effect - add some to your winshield and drive down the road and see how translucent the finish is - (please don't try this - just use you imagination:p )
Again - its the coverage that is allowing the base to show through.
All I'm saying is that for that amount of money - why not use a cheaper base product - and add Irredescent finish to it - like to the CHEAP misty evening -and I know its even cheaper where you are MM!
If I understand what you are trying to achieve - the base should be an off white - so why not use the misty evening with irredescent additive - Again - those that have played enough with the Behr silver - know that it doesn't look silver when you mix it with white. It has been described in several forums as GREY
:eek:
BTW - has MM posted screenshots of these "superior" finishes he raves about ???

Originally posted by CMRA
I have to question, what is it you don't like about Scoob's ME hybrid? From what I can ascertain, it's ME with a better contrast ratio...and that's good, very good. BTW, do you find the phantom blue tint objectionable? On my latest screen shots?

let's see.........,

CMRA, your latest screen shots have a noticably "fishy' air about them.

Admittably, on a "scale" of 1 to 10, they "wade in" about a "9".

But your "slimey" efforts have reached a new"low". (...about 2-3 fathoms, actually.)

...and worst of all, about your screen shots.........?

They are all "wet".

Take my "Shrimp........Please!"

Ok, so I'll "Clam Up" for now.

But you can expect no more "sponging" on the issue anbout "Blue" because paint is thicker than "water".

Gotta Go. There's some pock-marked yellow Dude at the door in short pants who wants to have words with me.

(I think I liked Nicky better. At least she didn't make me feel like hitting the nearest Sushi Bar........., with a bomb.)

Originally posted by CMRA
Whoa, MissMan. A little clarification is in order. Only the blacks you see in my screen shots are enhanced. And remember, there's the loss of shadow detail because of it. Such is the nature of my digicam.

The contrast issue was all I was refering to anyway. and when you up the contrast levels on a LCD PJ, to get precisely what you have already, a loss of true white balance, and an enhancement of the very "blue effect that ME exhibits. Try turning down the contrast and post a Pic. that should settle that. you haven't known me yet to refuse to admit a mistake, have you?'


I want all readers of this thread and observers of my screen shots to know those pix are VERY close to what you'd observe viewing my setup. They are also unaltered except for resizing to oblige the forum rules. They do speak volumes about my Sanyo and ME screen. Let it be known if any member were to duplicate my setup he/she could expect results completely in line with what they witness in these screenshots.

....and I have said as much myself.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sportster64
[B]MM - I can do math as well - here in the northeast its 20 bucks for less than a qt - 31oz- . yea - that right 80/gal !! Or from your point of view 40 if it takes 2 qts.

MM - you shouldn't assume so much - maybe you should do a little research yourself into the fogging technique that I worked on a few months back - then YOU will see that I have worked a lot with this silver stuff!
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=299852

I read that thread, and your use of a Gravity fed sprayer isn't indicitive of a normal approach. Nor is the use of Glaze acceptable for any but the weakest of PJs and then only when it's sheen is knocked down.

Too much silver creates too much directionallity, so cutting it to some degree makes fine sense. If a SilverStar screen was really such a good thing, we'd all have 'em, now wouldn't we?

I can only state that my experiences go way beyond the mere "experimentation" stage and into the real world of cranking out screens on almost a daily basis. For paying customers. No complaints as of yet.

.and paint IS translucent. If it's not, then your discovery turns accepted knowledge of painting on it's ear. Of course you can "over apply" any paint on a 'first coat' to where it covers what's beneath...and get runs, drips, and dried ridges.

But using a glaze is self defeating. It only makes getting n accurate image more difficult.

Originally posted by MississippiMan
,




But as for the future, set that excellent and affordable PJ on Default and post "the real story" so that ME can be judged accordingly. I don't think the difference will matter in the least, but at least you will have to do no explaining.

I don't think so. Not a chance. I have not gone this far to settle into the ranks of mediocrity, just like you, I presume. It gives me great satisfaction to know I can take an entry level PJ and through my own efforts make it a contender against the higher and mightier. All my future efforts will be directed towards the best image I can get regardless of equipment or screen. If members like what they see, they will know that what they observe is obtainable. Who knows, with the likes of ME+, it may be even better.

Originally posted by sportster64

BTW - has MM posted screenshots of these "superior" finishes he raves about ???

.had to "edit" that in there, 'eh. Well, I've posted plenty on several of CMRA's own threads. Look 'em up.

There will be more soon and I'll be sure to send you the link.

...just so you don't miss 'em somehow.

Hey MM man - guess you better tell that to the world of Faux painters out there LOL !!!
Whoa - stop producing that glaze - we don't need it - the paint itself is tranlucent enough LOL LOL !!!!

As far as producing these on a daily basis - I guess I NEED to get into production mode with my paint guns - because if your gonna sell em - I bet you that your customers will get a better screen if it is sprayed than if it is rolled hands down !!!

And yea - most people are trying to produce there screen without a paint sprayer - but they are DIY's who are producing 1 (one) screen for home use-Why don't you raise the bar and if your gonna sell something - try and achieve the best that you can for your PAYING customers - and experiment with what you can do with spraying techniques ?
Obviously - by your comments - you have'nt the skill or shop to possibly try this. Don't get me wrong - I'm certainly NOT knocking rolling - I have done both - but once I went to spraying - there aint no returning to the ole - fashion roller.
Directional ?? - you mean 'viewing cone' - And In case you need a physics re-fresher course - You're NOT creating energy here- that means in order to really lighten things up from the seating position - you must sacrifice something - in the case of screens - its the viewing cone. Depending on your room design and room color - a more narrow vieing cone could be a plus such as a screen that almost touches the side walls or where someone insists on keeping those walls bright white. In a wide room where seating may very- it could be a negative - you have to know the objective of the room layout to best optimize the screen viewing cone. Don't you do that for the Paying customer - or are ya just slappin paint on and selling a one screen fits all approach here ??

Yea - here's another (edit) in since I didn't catch the prev post - From the screen shots I saw - they didn't show the before/after on the 'same' screen shot - like scoobs been doing - If you don't show a reference - like bare drywall or in my case (bare BO cloth) - the pic does nothing - did I miss that comparison maybe ??

FWIW, my final ddog mix had like 35-40% glaze and the screen doesn't have any sheen at all. But I used flat white instead of satin white. I think it was the satin white that was adding the sheen in my earlier experiments.

And I agree with sportster, spraying rules (once you get the hang of it).

Originally posted by sportster64
Hey MM man - guess you better tell that to the world of Faux painters out there LOL !!!
Whoa - stop producing that glaze - we don't need it - the paint itself is tranlucent enough LOL LOL !!!!

>>>>>What's so funny? I never said anything about any paint competing with clear glaze? Oh...your jesting? LOL LOL!

But just you ask any real, experienced Painter the same "translucency" question and he'll back me up. I have no explanation as to why you feel otherwise. Indigestion maybe? ;)

I think the real misunderstanding here is that you don't appreceate the penetrating power of light, nor truely understand how it interacts with various finishes and surfaces, some with certain properties underlying others with different properties. Your posts seem to indicate your stuck on the good results of your spraying technique as opposed to rolling. Using silver pushed you into that genre. Few will argue the point that spraying can create an even finish, but it doesn't represent a solution, merely a step. And in the most basic sense of the phrase; "It all amounts to a Crap Shoot", because we all must make choices from some level of quesswork.>>>>

As far as producing these on a daily basis - I guess I NEED to get into production mode with my paint guns - because if your gonna sell em - I bet you that your customers will get a better screen if it is sprayed than if it is rolled hands down !!!

<<<That would be fine, excepting most of the screens I do are in finished rooms, and tarping everthing isn't an option. Nor is the added expense of a decent compressor. Or all the other concerns that are non existant when working "at home'. I'm open to any new idea or concept that makes things better, eaiser, and cost effective. Right now, my skill with a roller and sanding block get's the job done just as well as a sprayer used correctly, and a whole lot better than a sprayer used uncorrectly.>>>>

And yea - most people are trying to produce there screen without a paint sprayer - but they are DIY's who are producing 1 (one) screen for home use-Why don't you raise the bar and if your gonna sell something - try and achieve the best that you can for your PAYING customers - and experiment with what you can do with spraying techniques ?

<<<see above>>> <<<..and just how can you justify pretending to tell me what's best for my customers or question the quality of my work? Your stretching the boundaries of resonableness here. You can have no conception of what is right and possible for someone else involved in a business you know almost nothing about. Your way off base. My clients stretch across the USA and abroad, and many are far pickier than you'll ever pretend to be. I DON'T install anything that isn't the best for the situation at hand. >>>>

Obviously - by your comments - you have'nt the skill or shop to possibly try this. Don't get me wrong - I'm certainly NOT knocking rolling - I have done both - but once I went to spraying - there aint no returning to the ole - fashion roller.

<<<<<I don't fashion many screens from "movable" objects. My client's walls are my medium, so a workshop is moot. As for the skill? Well, I've used spraying outfits on boats, cars, houses, etc. Where's the skill involved with knowing how to use a spray gun? All it takes is practice, not any great degree of learning. For that matter, neither does rolling. >>>>>

Directional ?? - you mean 'viewing cone' - And In case you need a physics re-fresher course - You're NOT creating energy here- that means in order to really lighten things up from the seating position - you must sacrifice something - in the case of screens - its the viewing cone. Depending on your room design and room color - a more narrow vieing cone could be a plus such as a screen that almost touches the side walls or where someone insists on keeping those walls bright white. In a wide room where seating may very- it could be a negative - you have to know the objective of the room layout to best optimize the screen viewing cone. Don't you do that for the Paying customer - or are ya just slappin paint on and selling a one screen fits all approach here ??

<<<<< Malarky. Your veiws are a product of "status quo' thinking. You CAN have your "big cone" and eat it too. See the attached screen shot showing a 150+ degree angle to the screen and match it with any screen you care to choose. I've still yet to receive a single adverse comment about this aspect of screen performance, let alone a single comparable screenshot. And this aspect is one of the most admired attributes of the screens performance by every one of my Customers. I await your comments. And FYI, no one is more attuned to optimizing a room for both audio and video than I am, after 26 years of doing so countless time upon time. How many times have you done so?>>>>>>

Yea - here's another (edit) in since I didn't catch the prev post - From the screen shots I saw - they didn't show the before/after on the 'same' screen shot - like scoobs been doing - If you don't show a reference - like bare drywall or in my case (bare BO cloth) - the pic does nothing - did I miss that comparison maybe ??

No, but then again, I wasn't making any, merely indulging in a comparison shootout with CMRA, who by the way, didn't offer many such screen shots either. We both knew there was a disparity in our equipment, yet his results were striking nonetheless. The only real issues were who was going to post what. But several others (scoob_) did conjure up thier own split screens and therein lay the opportunity to make more serious judgements.

Lastly, this excercise for me is one of both pleasure and interest, not necessity. I can make virtually any wall or peice of ridgid material (...I don't "do" cloth.) into a screen that exceeds what the Client ever expected possible. And that's always been good enough. Conversing with the likes of CMRA and others here is prudent time well spent. I certainly want to discover new routes to succede at, because my successes are my Client's succeses as well. Basic Greys worked well with 2200 lumen PJs. Flat White works well with the X1 because it's contrast ratio is so high. Goo helped the X1 even more (..oops, they advocate "translucency" as well. The Sillies! ) I first tried applying a pure white over a dark grey when converting a High Contrast screen into a "off white' After two carefull overcoats, I could still make out the grey underneath. Yet the difference seemed to make a difference only when a bright light was present. The darker background obviously kept too much light from reflecting back, while the pure white still allowed enough refelction to assure far more screen brightness than the grey ever hadm even with a 2200 lumen PJ.

That's as simply put as it can be.

I respect your own endeavours. We all have lots to be proud of, for we all represent a new way of thinking, "off the screen". If I come off somewhat "imperious" at times, it's only because I've received the opinions of tens of thousands about my work, not tens of tens as would be the case of most here on AVS. I tend to lean toward beleiving that input more than most other outside sources, many which naturally and understandably exhibit an unrepenting bias for thier own opinions. But it's not so much a tendency that I cannot pick up on something new. That's what led me to CMRA's ME, which I have lauded much more than discounted. It's on the record. But now, I'm sure there's more ahead, just as many others beleive, and I feel my ideas are ones based on experience, not conjecture, and thier being so is reflected in what I do on a daily basis.

Ask yourself this question. "What if someone told you your spraying was a poor way to apply a good finish, and because you did it that way, your work you charge Customers for is substandard?" Then they added, "And you oviously don't have enough skill or the equipment to make a difference anyway." What would you think they were trying to prove. They're point? Or just thier ability to just say what they like? I'm no upstart at what I do, but I'm not so advanced that I can't or won't take advice. But so far, your advice sounds more like pure critisium and borderline insults. While I'd prefer to think otherwise, you make it pretty hard.

...and CMRA, I'm not being touchy.

I'm actually working on doing exactly as you and others have suggested. I recently bought 4 seperate mixes, and if I'm carefull, I'll have enough left of each to strip paint a spare piece of 4' x 6' Parkland I have laying around. Until then, posting shots of the individual screens as they come on line will have to suffice.

<<<<<<But so far, your advice sounds more like pure critisium and borderline insults. >>>>>>>



thats the way it looked to me as well.......

Originally posted by whitemist
<<<<<<But so far, your advice sounds more like pure critisium and borderline insults. >>>>>>>



thats the way it looked to me as well.......

Thanks, whitemist. I didn't really want to put some of those thoughts into that reply, but it just got rolling along. Too much snow to pick up on the way downhill. I suppose. Glad to know at least someone else doesn't think I'm being the rock inside that snowball.

How about it, Sportster64, shall we both take a breath and count to ten?

I'm alright with that.

"You CAN have your "big cone" and eat it too" - MM - that pretty much sums it up for me too - I guess all these folks spending the big bucks on SS are buying a screen with a narrow viewing cone for no reason according to your theory - NOT ! Screens are indeed passive devices - there is no black magic here. You can make screen material more efficient at light transfer - but there are ALWAYS tradeoffs PERIOD. Again - your NOT creating light energy here - only manipulating it. I am not trying to offend you and I certainly don't want this good thread that Scoob started to get pulled- but when you come on here and make claims like all these people are looking at your screens like they are big Plasmas - well - be prepared to get lots of video interference from people that know a little more than the window shoppers
:D
And as far as your comment on using a paint gun being easy - well - now I know your experience in painting anything custom with a paint gun is at best questionable.
You actually made it clear to me that there is a lot of money to be made in selling this stuff to the average joe who doesn't know S-video from DVI from Component .
There was a thread a while back on this that discussed making money on installing HT equip. i forget which forum or the thread starter though.

SO - yes lets get back on track with this thread - scoobs misty Premium.
If I get time this weekend I am planning to do a test panel of it myself !!

Originally posted by sportster64
[SO - yes lets get back on track with this thread - scoobs misty Premium.
[/B]

Oh yeah, I'll second that. Scoob, your hard work is paying off. Take a bow.

Originally posted by MississippiMan
[I'm actually working on doing exactly as you and others have suggested. I recently bought 4 seperate mixes, and if I'm carefull, I'll have enough left of each to strip paint a spare piece of 4' x 6' Parkland I have laying around. Until then, posting shots of the individual screens as they come on line will have to suffice. [/B]

MissMan, I eagerly await your offerings. Actually, I've been waiting. You bring much good meat to the table and I'm famished.

Scoob...

Could you please write a post on how to apply your ME+ to a surface including base coats and mix application? Exactly what order did you apply the paints? Did you just smooth the surface...then apply two base coats and a few coats of the ME+ mixture? It would be VERY helpful if you could explain.

Also...do you guys know what I could use as the DYI screen? I live in a dorm room and need something lightweight. Thanks

-Kosta

Originally posted by sportster64
"You CAN have your "big cone" and eat it too" - MM - that pretty much sums it up for me too - I guess all these folks spending the big bucks on SS are buying a screen with a narrow viewing cone for no reason according to your theory - NOT ! Screens are indeed passive devices - there is no black magic here. You can make screen material more efficient at light transfer - but there are ALWAYS tradeoffs PERIOD. Again - your NOT creating light energy here - only manipulating it.


>>>>>Once again, your twisting things around to suit your own statements. I never made any such claims, they only came from your direction to help support your caustic point of view.

certainly there are those who buy into the SS because that's their prerogative to do so. Their reasons may be convenience, belief in the Mfg claims, or practical experience, but none of which discounts any other viable alternative. If we were all here experimenting just to make do, I wouldn't be here.

I never said or wrote a word that inferred that my screens were putting out more light than received. I only stated that I'm have indeed gotten improved results across a wide spectrum that easily compares to, and even exceeded the performance of mfg. screens. Why does that scare you or ruffle your fur? Did you bother to comment on my pic? No. Are you afraid to make the observation and offer an honest opinion? Are you a Vutec rep lurking about in disguise? Or just someone who has spent too much money in the past and responds to poster who have gotten by for less, with the usual "sour grapes" attitude? Could it be that you know if you discredit the obvious performance shown on the pic without justification, it will show you up as nothing more than a malcontent?

No, I just think your just spoiling to create friction. Your responses cannot be seen as anything other than that. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I am not trying to offend you and I certainly don't want this good thread that Scoob started to get pulled- but when you come on here and make claims like all these people are looking at your screens like they are big Plasmas - well - be prepared to get lots of video interference from people that know a little more than the window shoppers
:D

<<<<<<well of course I expect some of that, but on this Forum it usually takes the form of courteous disagreement, not thinly veiled flaming. Funny thing how stating something that goes against established and accepted thinking brings the discordant and even jealous sects out of the wood work. Not so funny is that instead of doing what your obviously can do so much better, spray your own sample and prove or disprove my "claims', you choose to discredit me, my work ethic, and my viewpoint personally. There's the truth of it and you wear it like a badge of shame.>>>>>>>>

And as far as your comment on using a paint gun being easy - well - now I know your experience in painting anything custom with a paint gun is at best questionable.

>>>>>>That's your specialty, not mine, nor did I ever claim it to be so. Obviously that is at the root of your funk.>>>>>>>>>

You actually made it clear to me that there is a lot of money to be made in selling this stuff to the average joe who doesn't know S-video from DVI from Component .
There was a thread a while back on this that discussed making money on installing HT equip. i forget which forum or the thread starter though.

<<<<<<< You were once one of the ignorant, weren't you? Or did you start out from the gate with the knowledge and the right to insult and dismiss out of hand the work and results of others? You have still got plenty left to learn, a big part of it courtesy and tact. I never made the statements I made about people mistaking my Screen for a Plasma as a way to discredit anyone or any product, only to point out that it was so good that it had a lot of people completely fooled. People you obviously have little or no respect for since you have achieved your loft seat so far above them. And for the record, I try very hard not to mention my business on this Forum, and I can only remember having to do so when self righteous and/or myopic individuals feel that they cannot accept a simple, true, and honestly made observation if it flies in the face of accepted reason. Your not the first, and you won't be the last, but you certainly are among the most inconsiderate. But do yourself and others a favor and stay out of the A/V business. You obviously don't have the mentality or the desire to "help" while providing a service and making a living. ALL my 3200+ clients have also become "friends" who appreciate what they wound up with, not regretted having made the choice they made, or the person they had to deal with. Only you can say if you can say the same, and yes, that reply belongs somewhere else. Try SlashDot.Com >>>>>>>

SO - yes lets get back on track with this thread - scoobs misty Premium.
If I get time this weekend I am planning to do a test panel of it myself !!

Don't you or anybody else forget that it was you who disrupted the flow of ideas and info, not me. That I won't back down is no discredit to me, nor to this thread, and certainly not to Scoob. It is, sadly, only a waste of a lot of bandwidth on the likes of you. Your use of AVS as a soapbox to infuriate and discredit is deplorable, and I'm sadly dissapointed that only Whitemist seems to be willing to call "a spade a spade".

Paint your screen and make a real contribution. Stop trying to bait those who are really trying to push the envelope for the good of all. Many may opt to paint, many more may opt to roll, and quite a few will undoubtedly opt to buy, but ALL who frequent AVS deserve responsible and considerate response. Even if they are dead wrong in thier veiws or observations.

Originally posted by CMRA
MissMan, I eagerly await your offerings. Actually, I've been waiting. You bring much good meat to the table and I'm famished.

Thanks CMRA. You'll be the first to know. I'll try to expidite it all.

...........and I'm sorry about the mess above, Scoob.

Better read the post again MM - I was simply questioning the need to use expensive behr Silver versus what I believe is a cheaper alternative - your reply to that was that I wasn't "informed " or knowledgeable on the subject or use of silver - So - I believe you are the one with the sour grapes in your mouth.
You can come here with all the expericence you want - but the bottom line is that this business is ever evolving - you can't always apply the principles you learned 26+ years ago to the high tech digital spectrum - yeah - you may me able to install A/v equipment - but READ THE forum topic - That's right - its SCREENS - in this case the thread is a DIY formula - Are you now gonna come in here the the King of experts and tell us that you have 26+ years with DIY screen experience ?
so Again - go back and read the original posts from yesterday - then you decide who hopped on whos back first.
It seems like you are always eager to jump in and "throw your weight around" in here with all this supposed experience you have. read your snippy replies to CRMA.
So I am gonna forget your rude comments that were directed towards me
And re-wind the thread back to my original commits in the thread - Why use the expensive silver as a base - when there are ,,again in my opinion AND experience,, cheaper alternatives to achieve the same results??????
Please MM - stick with answering the LAST sentence!!!

Scoob,

Let's get back to what I hope is a productive post aimed at the advancement of DIY screens.

MM made an interesting point about ditching the faux glaze. Both the faux glaze and the accent base dry clear.

Last night I dipped one end of a wooden paint stick into the glaze and the other end into the flat accent base. This morning I find that the glaze dried completely clear but somewhat shiny. The accent base is mostly clear (still a tad milky) but is totally flat.

My question to you is....how much screen sheen do you have with your ME+ formula? Is it too much? I recall you indicating earlier that there is little to no sheen and no hot spotting. In which case, I wonder why you are considering removing the glaze from the formula.

If sheen is a concern, have you considered simply replacing the glaze portion with more of the accent base? (60% flat accent base, 20% SM, and 20%ME).

I know you have tried variations before. Did you try something like this? Do you have any thoughts on how it might roll on?

Thanks

Ok guys, that's enough.

MM-
I agree with most of what you say and I welcome your comments - and your incredible angle SS. I love that and I think the SilverStar camp should be frightened by such a viewing angle with a bright picture. I know each of your applications is a little different, but have you ever measured the "gain" from one of your completed screens? Since you're not using glaze, I imagine it wouldn't be much more than 1.0, but the silver should definitely enhance it.

As a scientist myself, I'm not discouraged by anything people say about ME+ or my ddog overcoat, etc. I'm the only one I'm trying to please. I simply write on here to share my experiences. If others benefit, great. I'm just giving back to the community because I'm grateful that CMRA shared ME in the first place. I'm proud to say that's still the number one choice for my screen and will be until I "perfect" ME+.

That being said, let me clarify for everyone my current method for applying my layers, as requested:
First, find a flat surface that you can size to your screen size specs. I used a doable board from Home Depot, 4'x8'. Because the white surface was glossy, I scuff sanded then added Kilz2 primer in 2 coats.

For my permanent screen, I then added 2 or 3 layers of pure ME (it's been long enough I don't recall). Between each coat, I allowed a full day of drying (because it was easy to do and I had other stuff to do around the house).

For my test panels, I bought another 4'x8' doable and cut it in half. I've tried several different formulation, basically one on top of the other. But because I'm rolling, I apply pretty heavy coats to try to avoid as much translucency issues as possible (so one isn't affected by the undercoats). That said, I acknowledge that there may be undercoat issues, but since my formulations are so related, tweaked usually very slightly, the effect should be simply of having 2 coats of the same formulation.

In my ddog overcoat days, much of the multi-coat issues were obvious and necessary/desirable. Now with the ME+, not so much, so I've been painting a coat of pure ME on top of "failed" formulations and starting fresh (as will be the case with my permanent screen).

As yet, I have not wet-sanded because I'm not overly concerned with the texture on the test panels. However, when I do "perfect" ME+, I will wet sand the permanent screen before and between coats. I will try on a test panels first, but I have sanded large surfaces before, so I'm not worried about technique, etc.

I've mentioned several times previously that I'm using a 6" foam roller (from HD) and I find it much easier to use (and it eats less paint) than a 1/4" roller. I can control the paint coverage and pressure much better with the foam roller, so I'm sticking with it. I tried an 8" 1/4" nap roller and wasn't pleased with the size and controllability of it. To each his own.

As far as mixing the formulas, I'm using a simple 2-cup glass measuring cup (don't tell my wife). It's easy to see the amounts in both English and metric units. Mix it up, roll it, and let it dry.

Scoob: I am not convinced one way or the other yet ,that the glaze is adding any gain to the formulas we have seen here so far -I do believe it is adding depth to the formulas or as some have described - a 3D effect - try it for yourself and see what results you get. Take a test panel and just roll some glaze over one half of the test panel - then project onto it and see if it seems to increase the gain.

John-
There is not shining or sheen or hotspotting with ME+. As I explained somewhere else, the method for removing the glaze was convenience: I'm almost out of the qt of glaze, but still have a bunch of flat base left. And in my completely light-controlled, dark-blue room, I have no real need for extra gain from the glaze.

I did try a different formula the other day with much more flat base, but I also added more silver (call me silly). The results were deplorable, both to roll (reminiscent of ddog rolling) and the way it dried (completely uneven and generally nasty). At some point this week I will try a formula with the same proportions of silver and ME, but with only flat base, as you mention.

Originally posted by sportster64
Better read the post again MM - I was simply questioning the need to use expensive behr Silver versus what I believe is a cheaper alternative - And re-wind the thread back to my original commits in the thread - Why use the expensive silver as a base - when there are ,,again in my opinion AND experience,, cheaper alternatives to achieve the same results??????
Please MM - stick with answering the LAST sentence!!!

You must of missed it...three times.

Silver & Silver Metallic are two completely different animals.

You were right in stating that mixing Silver with white gets you a grey.
So does mixing lamp Black with white, but that is a dingier grey.
Mixing SM with a Flat white, and it will result in a more reflective surface than without the SM. Add a little Red Oxide, or Thallo Green, or both...and who knows?

The silver metallic "flakes" are what makes the reflectivty become enhanced. Similar properties are what drives the SS, and yet that greatly enhanced reflectivity is what also creates a limited viewing cone by directing too much light straight back to the PJ, just like a flashlight or flashbulb creates a intense reflection when viewed head on into a really reflective surface such as aluminum, or worse, a mirror.

Diluting that effect just to the point where it is under control, and then adding the wide viewing angle aspects of lighter shades applied on smooth surfaces goes a lot further towards creating a good blend of attributes without making to deep a sacrifice in any one direction. A SS is best utilized when you have no other choice, not as the "only Choice" IMO Such a statement shouldn't threaten anyones sensibilities. Simply put, it works, and I have already proven it. Whether it works best of all...I've never dared make that claim. It is now for others such as you, Scoob to confirm, disprove, or ignore as each sees fit.

Too long have 'learned' HT people been stuck in the conventional rut of designing HTs on a long axis. It's merely a status quo thing aggravated by the fact that MFg understandably could produce equipment more suited to that design than to designs were people might actualy sit closer than 10'

That is changing daily.

CMRA knows I'm on his side, and excepting the potential of a noticable SDE effect from his Z1 when viewed 'way' too close, his results verify that you can start to crowd the screen closer than ever before. Use a good DLP and 6' isn't "too close". At that distance, a smaller image still represents a correct viewing aspect ratio, and produces an even brighter and sharper image. And that is what we are all looking for. All undisputable facts. I don't dwell 26 years in the past, either. I prepare for the future...constantly. And the Future lies in adjusting one's thinking for progress and innovation.

I hope the above explanation clears up a few misconceptions on what I said and did not say. And I hope this post is perceived as being, "On Track" for it certainly was meant to be.

Well - I think that is acceptible as being back in the lab MM.:D
That leads me to believe again that possibly using the separate 'components' of the behr silver - again using the irredescent additive from liquitex or I think behr even sells this irredescent stuff in there 31oz tubs - along with a base and also with a separate grey - possibly the Misty evening -combining these in a controlled fashion possibly might lead to something. I'm not sure if the irredescent has a flake additive like the silver or not. But adding different amounts of the irredescent to control the viewing cone may or may not work - don't know at this point.

Originally posted by scoob5555

As a scientist myself, I'm not discouraged by anything people say about ME+ or my ddog overcoat, etc. I'm the only one I'm trying to please. I simply write on here to share my experiences. If others benefit, great. I'm just giving back to the community because I'm grateful that CMRA shared ME in the first place. I'm proud to say that's still the number one choice for my screen and will be until I "perfect" ME+.




Talk like this makes me wish I owned the patent on ME. Of course, even I, stubborn as the next, can see the handwriting on the wall. ME will give way to a new and improved solution such as ME+. How do I know? Well, I did take a trip to Home Depot today. Dang, that SM really does cost $20.00 a quart! I'm only a trip to Walmart away from real world results.
Thanks again and again Scoob for all your efforts

I finally got around to putting ME+ on 1/2 of our drywall screen (pic attached, ME+ on the left.) The formula was ABOUT:

33% Walmart 5053 latex base
33% Sherwin Williams 6403-16006/A46T6 Faux Finish Glazing Liquid
20% Misty Evening "clone" I made from True Value E-Z Kare ceiling paint
15% Sherwin Williams 6403-35857/A46S100 Translucent Metallic Technique Finish-Silver

Applied over a drywall with two coats of ME already on it, with a foam roller. Application was a little more difficult than the ME but still easy. It definitely has an eggshell or satin finish compared to ME.

Conclusion? Too early to tell. The pics I will post after this one were done with my HS10 calibrated for ME, not ME+. My first reaction to ME+ was not positive but my 11 year-old likes the blacks (I've got her trained right, eh?) We will watch the 1/2-1/2 screen for a few days, calibrate for the ME+ and then draw some conclusions.

More pics to follow.

John in Northern NY

Here's the Misty Eve in one corner getting deeper blacks without much sacrifice of the whites for the most part and then on the other end is silver metallic undercoat enhancing the brightness and therefore the whiteness ( perceptually ) and yet somehow not hurting the blacks. And now the ME+ going through alot of appreciated effort trying to push the envelope on both sides at once. Wow

Hec, if I'd went with a screen a few months back based on posts I'd probably be geering up for a redo after following all this. Where is this all going to be a few months from now.

I'm still favouring sm for the undercoat just from maybe skewed logic that I want the light to experience the paint color of my choosing ( misty light maybe ) before it comes back to my eyes but if the ME+ ( top coat reflective ) reflects half the light back to me in that color and the other half back to me in the actual color thrown by the projector ( as maybe it was in the first attempt of 50/50 mix ) can push the overall envelope bigger without downgrading other aspects of the image that would be huge.

What aspects of the image could take a negative hit from such a mixture?
If on an extreme level if one had a fully absorbant black mixed half and half with metallic you would be watching your whole image with half the pixels if each paint particle were the size of a pixel ( hey we're extreme here, remember ). Now taking the black and moving to ME we would be watching ME flavoured colors on half the pixels and the actual colors ( brightened up ) in the other half of the pixels. And if that turns out to be the holy grail then wouldn't it be a good feature on television sets to have two settings for all the colors, one for the even numbered pixels and one for the odd numbered pixels for by doing so we would get a much higher range of black to white......

go scoob

A Toy Story 2 shot. ME+ is on the left.

Originally posted by ender611
Hec, if I'd went with a screen a few months back based on posts I'd probably be geering up for a redo after following all this. Where is this all going to be a few months from now.



You'll get use to it. We enjoy 'flavor-of-the-month' here. What price glory, right?

Originally posted by CMRA
Dang, that SM really does cost $20.00 a quart! I'm only a trip to Walmart away from real world results.
Thanks again and again Scoob for all your efforts

$20 is cheap. Go dig up artists acrylic metallics, and figure the cost for a quart. :p

I have a PJ finally, so I'll be able to add some screenshots as I get things going and do more testing.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I find this stuff fascinating and fun.

My wife being amazed at the detail on a plain blackout cloth screen watching Monsters inc. was worth it. ;) (X1, mounted now, uncalibrated). It also means I get to keep it. :p

C

The hand shot from Gladiator. ME+ on the left, ME on the right.

FYI,

You can find Silver Metalic at Lowe's. It's made by Valspar, comes in a 16 oz bottle, and sells for under $9.

It's a similar price per oz as the quart at HD but for many DIY screen makers a pint (especially when comprising only 20% of Scoob's formula) will go a long way.

Gollum, ME+ on the left. I must say the pics from my Canon S20 3.3 do not do my screen shots justice. I am a point-and-shoot kind of guy with a snapshot camera so other than turning off the flash I did not do anything special for these pics. The actual pictures are brighter and with more accurate color. BUT, having said that, the RELATIVE difference you see between ME and ME+ is fairly accurate.

I meant to ask in the first post today if you thought perhaps my S-W Silver paint is not the same kind as yours. It is silvery, smooth in appearance but does not have any metallic flakes in it - it has a sheen, like mercury, to it. Sound familiar or similar to what you used?

Another Gladiator shot.

This Toy Story 2 shot shows some 3D effect. A little better, I think, on the ME side (right.)

The last pic post. The ME, ME+ line runs right through the bottom barb of the arrow.

The SM from HD is actually very "flaky" in appearance. Sounds like what you have is more like regular paint. The SM is very gloopy and sparkly, like the surface of the FireHawk.

Thanks for the feedback, scoob. Anyone out there know of an equivalent to the HD, SM flaky paint? I am a long way from a HD - 75 miles or one year (in a year it will be three blocks away!)

John in Northern NY

John-
Looking at these pics, I have to say how washed out they look; I can barely make out the dividing line on most of them. I hope this is mainly the camera as you mentioned. Can you try to lower the resolution to 1024x768 or 800x600? Also, I'm interested to see what you think when you calibrate to ME+.

Actually, I think I am back to the drawing board with the ME+ until I can get some real Silver Metallic paint. I think that the S-W Translucent Metallic is more of a glaze than metallic paint so I really haven't seen ME+ yet.

Sorry to take up your bandwidth with those pictures. I am heading towards civilization this weekend to see my grandson and will pick up some HD Silver Metallic when I am there and try this again next week. Hey, I'll do a 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 test! Good thing I have a big screen!

John in Northern NY

John in Northern NY-

How about a Lowe's? They carry Valspar Silver Metallic Paint. I've never seen it side by side compared to HD's Behr but I think they are basically the same.

Before I start spreading a potentially false rumor I would like for someone to comment on my aforementioned Valspar Silver Metalic that I've indicated is available at Lowes.

The exact name is: Valspar Metal and Patina Paint Glaze. As the name indicates, it's not a paint but a glaze.

So before I start using it...and worse, telling others that it is basically the same as Behr Silver Metallic, I'd like to know if it is.

The attached image is from the Lowe's website and shows the bottle (the example is copper) but the stuff I bought is "Silver" number 99734.

I spread a little on a white board and it is definitely metalic...not simply a paint called silver. But as Scoob described the Behr stuff I wouldn't say it's flaky. It looks more like a mercury.

Comments? My main problem is that my local HDs in Connecticut do not carry the Behr Silver Metalic anymore. So does anyone know of an "equivalent" to the Behr stuff if this Valspar stuff is all wrong.

The Lowe's is the same distance from home, just a different direction. Northern NY is a barren but beautiful place, trust me. It is more like the wilds of New England than any Mid-Atlantic clime. There is both Lowe's and HD where I am going Saturday (PA). I am hoping the HD has Scoob's Behr Silver Metallic stuff!

I just compared my side-by-side pic against Scoob's from this thread's first post. There is a huge difference. Mine shows none of the sparkle that his ME has. That is obviously due to me using the wrong kind of Silver Metallic material. Mine was a glaze. His was "thick, flakey, gloopy." If the HD's are no longer carrying it we are going to have to find a substitute. Any paint guru's out there?

John in Northern NY

If you don't see any Behr paints in your local HD, just go to the Behr site and get the customer service phone # and order them. I did twice for the Silver Metallic paint. They didn't even charge me shipping...may be because I told them the local HD didn't carry it.

Scoob:

King's idea was great. I went to the Behr website but now am confused (nothing new!) You wrote on page 2 of this thread that the SM paint # was 748. According to the Behr website, that is a "Premium Plus with Style, Faux Glaze" for mixing with other paints. #743 is a silver "Premium Plus with Style". The picture for 743 looks more like what you have described as the SM in your ME+ recipe and it appears to come in quart jars instead of cans. Which one of these products is the flaky, goopy, sparkly stuff? Per the website, I would guess that it is #743.

Thanks!

John in Northern NY

743

Comes in Quart Jars Only

Minimum cut: 1/3 Base to 2/3 SM

At this consistency, nobody should whine about it being too difficult to spread, and there is ample "sparkly" in the mix to effect the results desired.

It's problematical at best as to whether it helps much to add SM to a Top Coat of ME.

All the PJs desiring to use ME & ME+ are 800 Lumen jobs, and any "greying" of a mix that goes beyond what ME has to offer will detract to much from overall screen "luminance" if not reflect-ability. They all want a brighter screen without affecting Blacks or smooshing whites into greys.
Guys, SM underneath is the way to go if you are capable of getting your second and third coats on thin enough. That being said, I encourage the simplification of the whole process by creating a ME+ overcoat...BUT, I truly am realizing that without the added reflect-ability afforded by the SM undercoating, all the other attempts will provide weak improvements,if at all. Seems to me an almost pure SM surface duplicating a SilverStar type could match or exceed the SM/UPW screen's performance, but at the cost of quite a bit of view-ability.

This is why I advocate the use of the SM mix underneath a double (but thin) overcoat of Ultra Pure white Flat. Benn There, done that, it works on several different fronts and excels in others.

Oh, mixing Thalo Green at 01 won't do any real harm with a DLP, but IMO any mix that can help accentuate the tendency of a LCD to push blues seems a little backward.

But MEs results seem to be pretty much admired by so many, so making statements like the previous on is a little like speaking heresy.

I'm experimenting with a lighter mix of Thalo and a slight but equal push of red oxide.

.........but I'm also going to try a "pure" SM thinned 10% with Flat White Base and 10% with, ahem..., distilled water. You can do that, ya all, if it's done with care and mixed with a shaker/mixer, not by hand. That will make it spread easier without adversely cutting into the gross reflectivity of the Metal flake with too much white base. But it also makes it absolutely necessary to roll it on a well prepped surface and keep your roller strokes even and smooth.

But to avoid the "TOO too Much" aspect of sparkly silver, I'll wet sand the finish to a "DULL Luster" and we'll see what happens. I feel this is a valid experiment because if it doesn't satisfy, or is "over the Top" in reflect-ability, I can always "cover it up" with thin topcoats and still get the best average from both worlds, as been done before.

For what it's worth, I spread some of the Valspar Metal and Patina Paint Glaze (Silver) onto a white board and let it dry. It is very sparklie and not translucent like I might have expected from a glaze. It seems like paint.

It is also pretty thick right out of the bottle.

So although Actonweber had poor results trying to replicate ME+ with the Sherman Williams translucent silver metalic glaze he used I still wonder if the Valspar product is more like the Behr SM.

Actonweber, can you describe the silver glaze you used? Was it thick and opaque or light and translucent? Did you (can you) dry a sample on a board to see how it dries?

If I am unable to get the Behr SM I may go forth and use this Valspar stuff.

Yeah, I got the two numbers mixed up - but they were both correct numbers. Wrote the post while I wasn't looking at the bottles. The SM is #743 and the glaze is #748.

Note that I'm now trying an ME+ mix without the glaze, so keep your eyes tuned in here over the next few days...

actionweber - that is correct the #743 is what you want - its the silver in a 31oz plastic jar.
The #748 is indeed the clear glaze that some people have used to mix in with the recipes.

Don't know what the glaze will do for your recipes scoob - but when I added it to the silver in a 50-silver 50 glaze compared to 100 silver test - the glaze batch dried brighter compared to the straight silver ,even though the glaze alone dries clear

Sporster64,
you said:
Don't know what the glaze will do for your recipes scoob - but when I added it to the silver in a 50-silver 50 glaze compared to 100 silver test - the glaze batch dried brighter compared to the straight silver ,even though the glaze alone dries clear

.........so fire us a screen shot, not just a statement. That's cruel!;)

.about that Goopy, slimy. sparkly stuff.

actonweber,

I'm due into Wayne, New Jersey next Thursday to paint a 14' diagonal screen with SM and a overcoat as yet to be decided. Between now and then that will be decided, and I'm leaning toward the even lighter grey w/red oxide ME+ mix I've already posted. Only this time it will also contain a substantial touch of Pearlecence in place of some of the White base. You are cordially inviter to crash the site and experience the act of rolling the stuff personally, as well as see the finished results.

(note to sportster64: If your latest SM w/Glaze offering gets posted with a screen shot, I may opt to try the clear glaze instead of the Pearlescense.)

It couldn't hurt if you have the opportunity. If you can hold off that long. Another point is that I can bring you a quart or two of MS at "Memphis" prices ($16.95 ea.) so you can stop looking, or have to pay freight just to acquire it from HD.

I'd do that, no problem.


If BETTER ambient light rejection AND color uniformity / correctness results than what plain 'ol ME / ME+ can offer are your goal, this may be your best opportunity to see for yourself, on something substantially larger and more defining than a piece of board, just how much you can expect out of the SM variant. Why..., you can even bring your PJ with you and give it a go....as long as you don't forget to bring a contribution of Heineken or Amstell Light.

Those ingredients are essential to "Better Screen Painting Techniques" and are the real secret behind it all.

But don't try mixing the beer into the SM. It ruins the Beer's taste.

At least I didn't like it.

MM

MM,

Don't you think your customers would be thrilled to know that you're experimenting on just about every screen you do?

;)

UH OH. Fasten your seatbelts everyone. Here comes MM's reply. Noah..you probably thought the flood was bad.

I PITY you Noah !!:eek:

EVERYONE, DUCK!

Johnstof: Thanks for the belly-laugh! The Sherwin-Williams product I tried is definitely a glaze. It dried with zero sparkle to it but a definite sheen - that did not detract from the picture. The problem is that my mixture dried too dark. I have a pretty bright LCD pj (SONY HS10, 1200 lumens, 700 CR) but the ME+ I tried (with the wrong metallic paint) was less blue but darker grey than regular ME. I gained a little black in the pic, as expected, but at the loss of too much brightness. The raw S-W "metallic" paint looks like mercury, kind of. Shiny but no sparkle.

MSMan: Thanks for the invite. I am going to be in that area THIS weekend and won't be getting back for a month (family is near Stroudsburg, PA, on the Jersey border.) I may check with you before my next trip down there - it is a 5+ hour drive for me! And, I promise, if my experiment with Scoob's ME+ doesn't make me happy I will try yours next. I am a lazy man and ME+ is only slightly more difficult to mix and apply then the ultimate easy-painted grey screen, CMRA's Misty Evening!

All: If you want the #743 (like I do) you can get it from the www.behr.com website, as ki_ng5 suggested. Click on the "Contact Us" link and call the number. If I don't find the Behr SM #743 this weekend in PA or NJ I will be doing that. I am confident the other paints I used in the ME+ mixture (S-W clear glaze, WalMart latex base, my True Value ME clone) are close enough to replicate Scoob's recipe as long as I get the metallic paint the same.

Noah,

Your getting off easy. Twice this evening, over 2 hours time, I had composed veritable essays in response to your question, concern, statement, whatever. Twice, upon receiving AVS emails about incoming posts, I automatically clicked on the links, which of course kicks me out of the "Reply" page, deleting all my efforts. All I can say is both novelettas were each in their own way, works of art. Of course, you had to be there.

Oh, in my Heart, you were, beleive me.

Attached is a picture of the last guy who accused me of taking advantage of my Customers.

Watch it!

Awwww fellows, even when a question like Noah's goes off topic, am I expected to respond accordingly? I didn't get in from work until 8:45 pm.

You know I really don't want to do this..........,

OK.

Noah, you needen't be concerned. I am very adept at bullying my Customers into doing whatever I say I want to do. After all, they are all just a bunch of know nothing Clowns whose money is just laying around waiting for me to steal.

To confuse them, I explain all about Painted Screens! I tell them about how much money I'm saving them, instead of charging them for the privilege of having me experiment on their walls! I even try to get them to believe I really want them to have the best results that they can afford, not just what I want to give them. Boy, that really confuses them!

(You really don't want to know about what I make selling the Audio portion of my systems. Or how I have the nerve to try out new products and ideas in that field on my poor unsuspecting Customers. It's insidious. It's detestable. It's....., the American Way!)

So, for some reason unknown to mortal man, off I go, using knowledge I've gleaned from other AVS'ers since early '01. Yes, I have the Gall to believe that after having painted 20+ screens last year alone, that I can read something here on AVS and adapt it to immediate use. I don't know why, but somehow it just seems sooooooo easy. It's not even really work! It IS like stealing money from 4 year old's Piggy Bank. You just knock 'em in the head with the Bank, and while they're bleeding profusely, you pick up all their money and scram. You know..., become invisible.

And stranger still, those silly, stupid, Customers are just alright with that!
They seem in a state of ignorant bliss, for I have lied to them and told them their wall screen will look like a Plasma! I get away with it because they just don't know any better, and neither do any of their friends, who all fall for the same line from them when they see it for themselves. I've done a great job at brainwashing them into believing that it true because thats what they tell everyone else, who all agree, and who all then join in and spread the word.

It's like an outbreak of Flu. Or maybe Ebola. Yeah, that's it.

Let 'em suffer!

I'm so evil.

You see, I relish the opportunity to spread my sordid seed about the landscape, germinating the thorns that get stuck in the sides of the likes of you and others, who are jealous that people who don't know any better will take my word on a subject that they still are so uncertain about themselves. Everyday on AVS I read posts from people who state how confused they are because it seems everyone has such great ideas, but no one seems to come down on one side or the other. Too much info, not enough commitment.

But there are a few exceptions, right or wrong.

Not since DDog has any mix caught and held so much attention as ME. But why? All it is is a one coat mix that makes it easy for someone with a puny 800 lumen PJ that's costs almost nothing be able to stand up and shout, "Hey, look at my Picture! It's so cool!" That's nothing special. It can't be, because there is Scoob trying to perfect ME+ And then there's me, having the nerve to try mixing ideas that in themselves work ok, but in unison should work even better.


I have done enough screens, and tried enough combinations to easily be able to decide what serves any application best. And if I want to try something new, it never steps outside the boundaries of known and accepted values. That I can freely do so apparently rankles the feathers of a few people, who must be jealous or something, because all they can do is find fault with that stroke of good fortune and call it something like, "I'm taking advantage of my Customers."

Many of you have stated, "If I don't like it, I can always paint over it." Well, so far Noah, despite all my 'experimentation', I've yet to ever have to redo a Screen. Yes, I said "ever'.

See, I told you I was evil. I must be lying!

But evil or no, I am extremely indebted to all those here on AVS who have contributed to my ability to scam the unknowing public. You have all had a hand in creating the Monster, so quit griping about all the damage I do to all the people you care so little about. After all, they are all so unworthy.

And so rich.

Now let me get back to the subject at hand. And on Topic.

Below is a screen shot bantered about as a reference for ME / ME+

It's on a 109" screen with a 1/3 UPW-F / 2/3 Silver Metallic undercoat with a single overcoat* of the following ME+/+ Mix.
(*Eat your hearts out, all ye who are "Roller Challenged".)

Colorant---------------------OZ--------48-------96

B-----Lamp Black----------- 0 --------- 1 ------- 0
F-----Red Oxide ------------ 0 --------- 0 ------- 1
KX-- White ----------------- 0 --------- 12 ------ 0
D-----Thalo Green---------- 0 --------- 0 --------1

Subsequent shots are all on the same screen All are with NO TWEEKS WHATSOEVER to either PJ's factory settings or the Digital Camera's Automatic Exposure and Color settings. Some are 2400x 1800 downsized to 640x480, others started at 800x600.

PJ is Studio Experience 50-HD
Only 200 lumens more than the Z1.

Please note black levels, whites, and color balance.
Please note viewing cone.
Please note screen brightness even during Dark scenes
Please note that more "experimental" screens are soon to come, as well, in bowing to unpopular demand, a Parkland sheet with this mix and three others grouped together.

....that is unless I can bully some Customer into letting me ruin his wall with my "experimentation'. You know..., that's exactly what I think I'll do. To Hades with the Parkland! I'm going to pick on that twerpy Customer in New Jersey with the 36K Theater I've designed and force him to let me play my dirty tricks on his 14' screen surface. Why? Because I can, and I'm just evil enough to do it! Mawah ha ha ha!

Serves him right, he's too rich for his own good, and too undeserving of any courtesy or consideration anyway. To me, he's nothing but profit and loss. My profit, his loss, eh Noah?

Steppin' out with Arnie.

Love that Jacket!

Don't try this at home.

Not just 160 degrees, but 170!

The Blacks, Greys, Fleshtones and the whiteness of the beard, all speak for themselves in this shot.

Ever get the feeling your on the outside looking in, Noah? ;)

A couple mandentory cartoon shots.

Please note that almost every shot posted tonight was taken at least 7 feet from the screen.

Now...seeing is believing too! CMRA

awsome screen shots man! those look really good.

Mr goodwrench he aint.

Originally posted by CMRA
Now...seeing is believing too! CMRA

I consider that the highest praise I can strive for. CMRA, coming from you.

Here's Nell.

I find that the colors on these cartoon shots seem vivid, but not "pushy". waddya think?

I love to mix 'em up.

here's one of the hardest shots of 'em all. I cought this just as a flash of incandesnt sparks lit up his face in almost total darkness. the blue is supposed to be there.

Could you work for this man?

sittin in the shade, makin small talk while others die.

That reminds me..., where's sportster64?:D

Actually, this was another challenging shot, and probably one of my worst.

Here's another offering to the Cartoon Gods.

When your hot.............

Chrome Armour shots.

Yeeeach! hate 'em!

Despite it being a very bright shot, filled with extreames in contrast, I think the Screen helped out a lot. I did have to take this one at 640x480 native because anything higher washed out.

What about it? Et Tu Blue?

Looks like you have set a new standard in screenshots? Can I have your $10,000 projector when you are through?

An eye for an eye, Noah. where's your offering? You too, sportster64?

Take a close look at the Iris. See the Black within the blue? Now that's contrast and color working together.

Thank you all for your patience. I'm going down to cut and then haul up some Firewood. You see, I spend so much time doing this kind of stuff, I can't find the time to stay home and meet the Heating Repair Guy. So I gotta go chuck into the Big Buck. That sucks. It's 36 degrees here in Memphis!

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that this coming Tuesday I'm off for Vancouver Island, BC You know, where all the best things grow free and wild. While there, and if functionality doesn't escape me, I must paint a Screen for an X1. Also, while there, I'll capture a few screen shots on the 5'x10' painted Parkland that's hanging up inside a nightspot there. It's the coolest thing in Duncan, BC by a long shot, even over the Totem Poles! And they're really cool. On the way home, I jet to Jersey where I'm gonna get vicious, mean, and nasty..., try to offer up a special treat to ya all, and THEN make my Customer a very happy Italian kinda guy.

G-night

Originally posted by CMRA
Looks like you have set a new standard in screenshots?

Blame it on the Screen, it's It's fault. :D

QUOTE][i]Can I have your $10,000 projector when you are through? [/B][/QUOTE]

Being Studio Experience's fair haired boy for the moment lets me sell it to my Customers, installed, for just $4795.00 Thats oodles more than a Z1, Z2, Panny 300E, Sony's of all types, and several more 'unmentionables'.

But it's a lot less than $10,000.00

But the best Christmas present I could think of would be that everyone, everywhere could have the very bestest and brightest picture possible. And if some gnome dares to ask if it's a 100" Plasma? You just tell' em, Yes.

And so I leave you with, this, my last offering. Not one of the best, in fact it was a terribly lit scene, and in keeping with my desire to post 'em as they came, here it is. But WHO could resist that smile?

I give you, Hizzoner, The Governator.

MSMan:
I am definitely impressed - with the screenshots, not your prose! But that is what counts here. OK, now I have to look back at your posts to determine what SM paint YOU use so I can play with it! Which screen material were you working with on those pics? And, remembering how lazy I am (sit down and don't go off the deep end here) how do you think your process and materials will work with a *GASP* roller?

Someone wanna disperse the kevlar vests?

Off to PA and NJ in a few hours....................

John in Northern NY

Well, I know I would get a warm glow if I just happened to turn over my brand new DWIN TV3 and find a tiny sticker with the following carefully lettered with a black sharpie:

Prototype #374

It would warm my black heart to know that my hypothetical $10k projector was a mere rung on the ladder of perfection.

I'm sure my purchase would be further validated if I later discovered that I could produce the same thing with the right URL, common materials, and some patience.

Other folks might scoff at being a "lab rat" or "ginea pig," if you will, but not me. I'm the type who likes to sign up for laxative drug studies just for shits and giggles (OK, mostly shits). Yes, there's not much you couldn't get me to do in the name of science or better painted screens.

John.

You can find it all on page 7 of this thread.

I'll email you the complete painting instructions.

The screen wall painted on Drywall.

I rolled each Coat.


Here's a pic the Theater in New Joysey. Pay no attention to the bookend sitting on the Sub. He's only Temp help. :p The area behind is is the screen location and all those Boards are Transducers. 16 of 'em Hey, waddya know?! How many of ya all's screen double up as speakers?

MSMan:

There is a PM for you.

John

Actonweber

aka:John

I answered your 8:30 email on line above, unless your PM got lost. I have nothing from you since before 9 AM.

MSMAN!

Your screen work really looks outstanding! I am going to redo my DDog V2 but I don't understand this part

Colorant---------------------OZ--------48-------96

B-----Lamp Black----------- 0 --------- 1 ------- 0
F-----Red Oxide ------------ 0 --------- 0 ------- 1
KX-- White ----------------- 0 --------- 12 ------ 0
D-----Thalo Green---------- 0 --------- 0 --------1

Can you please explain??


Thanks
Rew

MississippiMan

You have a PM.

Also, I have learned much from this thread and even though I don't have much in the way of painting skills, I am going to give the DIY screen a try. I hopefully will have my projector for the holidays.

WOWWW!! What a thread. A lot of great input and great reading. I was wondering a couple of things. I did notice that the majority people contributing (I believe) are LCD or DLP users. I'm a CRT guy and I am not sure if I missed some things in the massive thread or not, but I was wondering a few things:

1) Any of you out there with CRT's give this a try? Results? Comments would be greatly appreciated.

2) Since obtaining black levels is basically not an issue of mine (because of CRT use) would it make sense to use a "whiter" grey than Misty Evening. Again, I would be probably more concerned with improving "brightness" more than anything else. I noticed from the color swatch obtained at my local HD store that Misty Evening is slightly on light green side of grey. Again, would moving away from darker Misty Evening to a lighter grey be beneficial? Keeping the + formula the same...

3) Does anyone of the SKU from Home Depot for the Parkland or DoAble board? Couldn't locate either of those two at my local HD store, but I was told that if I had a SKU, they would be able to tell me where I might be able to get it.

I'm looking forward to begin experimenting for the CRT users out there to help improve things on our end as well. Any input or thoughts geared this way would be great.

Hey all-
Just a quick update to say that my formulation without glaze is not an improvement. In fact, it's a step backward when it comes to whites/brightness. The formulation with only flat clear base, silver, and ME is very flat, has no sheen, but it also has muted brightness compared to only ME.

I'll spare you the screenshots as they don't add anything to this discussion. Suffice it to say the blacks are deeper, but you sacrifice the brightness and whites that led me to the ME+ in the first place. Just went and bought a new quart of glaze, so it's back to the drawing board. Looks like the 30:30:20:20 mix of last week is still the best of the ME+ experiment.

Your post was timed perfectly. I am preparing to paint the ME+ tomorrow and was tempted go replace all the glaze with the clear base.

I'll stay with the 30:30:20:20 mix.

Guys, Check out "Friday Night Fish Leftovers" in "Screens" and give me your input.

It sounds like the lack of glaze did as i suspected - reduced the brightness of the overall picture. What may or may not work for your projector is instead of using a flat paint - use either satin or possibly the semi-gloss to bring back the brightness - but at the risk of hotspotting.
MM - I will check to see if I still have the samples I did of 100% silver versus 50/50 glaze/silver to post. MM - while your shots look good - How do we know that it isn't your projector that is making them look so good or the camera ? A reference panel - say with just straight misty evening or Misty+ painted up in front of your shots would indeed give us that reference.
WOW - the northwest got over 6" of snow already
:D
Time to go hop on a new four Stroke RX1 !!!

All-
I made the leap and painted the screen with my ME+ formula (30:30:20:20). Two coats and it's all dried and up on the wall.

My comparo days are over for awhile so I can rebuild my marriage. In the meantime, I have a few screenshots to show you. All from Toy Story 2 this time, but I'll get to Gladiator and Attack of the Clones. If I ever get Finding Nemo, I'll post shots from that too.

First up, the cleaner.

Next up, the eyeball shot that CMRA posted.

How about some Newman nastiness?

And a variety of colors with Woody.

is that SD i see?

Originally posted by scoob5555
Next up, the eyeball shot that CMRA posted.

Scoob, some very nice ME+ screen shots. However, give credit to MissMan, it was his excellent eyeball shot, not mine.

Thanks for the very informative thread.

Yesterday, wife and I painted an entire wall with plain ME and are happy with the results, both before and after tweaking our X1. (prior, the wall was pastel cream, yuccch!) Tomorrow I get to test again when our LT240K arrives.

I'll leave it to you guys to continue the R&D and enjoy the ME for now. However, please be sure any future formula is agreeable to my wife, as it will become part of our room's color scheme!!

:)

Paul-
It's not so much SDE as it is the limitation of my silly camera. No matter what I try (reducing resolution, moving closer or farther away) this effect seems to be prevalent.

That said, I do see slight SDE on my screen, but I always have at a certain distance. At our 12-13' viewing distance, it's pretty minor - and definitely from the pj, not the screen. And it's to be expected at these sizes and this amount of power.

MM-
Sorry for the slight on the eyeball pic. Wondered why I couldn't find it under CMRA's pics.

scoob, thanks for the pics. They look really good besides the camera limitations and all. :)

Sawright.


So long...I'm off to VancouverIsland, BC

Camera, in tow..

refer any questions, comments or cash to:

nvisible@midsouth.rr.com

..untill 11-25-03

Today, I painted two coats of UPW-F over a kilz2 base, wet-sanding between coats. Then painted a coat of ME. Haven't had a chance to wet-sand yet, but I noticed that it is drying darker than when wet. Is this everyone else's experience with ME. It looks a little darker than I expected.

I don't have a projector yet (Panny 300 or 500, or Sanyo Z2) so I can't project an image, but I don't see how good whites can be achieved as it looks so dark. CMRA screenshots say otherwise, so I can't wait to see how it looks.

The ME+ is looking pretty good. I'll probably give that a shot, but after I actually get a projector.

- jason

BTW, My Me was mixed with Glidden Evermore Interior Latex Flat, not the exterior masonry & stucco. The blop of paint on the can lid does not look nearly as dark as what's on the wall, but I guess it has to be the same!

I assume the formulation is different than CMRA's because the base is different...

I attached a pic of the label... Jason

jebersole - you got it right. The masonry/stucco was just used by CMRA as a base or primer coat the very first time because it was hanging around in his cellar (if my memory serves me correctly.) And, yes, ME does dry slightly darker but it also depends upon your primer or base coat. Your second coat may dry lighter. I would not do any more, if I were you, until you get your projector running and calibrated to the ME screen. What material is your screen?

I just returned from the HD 5.5 hours away with EXACTLY the same gal of Glidden Evermore PLUS the treasured (at $20/qt!) bottle of Behr Silver Metallic, #743. Now to try the 30/30/20/20 ME+ mixture when I get time this week. I bought the extra gallon of Glidden ME to paint the rest of my walls and ceiling in the cellar HT.

MSMan - that PM was sent at 9:13 a.m. the other day. Sorry I missed you in NJ!

John in Northern NY

actonweber - I'm doing all this on drywall; the area framed in 1x2's (painted flat black) in 16:9 at 92" diag. There are a couple of spots where I can feel where the drywall bows just slightly, so I think I'm ok in that respect.

No HD nearby, but I will get ahold of the necessary ingredients eventually to do the ME+.

- jason

Originally posted by actonweber


MSMan - that PM was sent at 9:13 a.m. the other day. Sorry I missed you in NJ!

John in Northern NY

I haven't left yet, 'cause I left my Passport at home. 20 mile round trip.
"Would you let this man paint your screen?"

I'll be in Vancouver until Thursday am and in Wayne until sunday am.

Move heaven and earth and show up on Friday or Sat. It's a "Once in a Life time" opportunity, well worth the effort. Why, it is vitually the stuff of Dreams! (...whew boy!)

Would I say that on this thread at the risk of future repudation?

Hell's fires! No Way!


(I'm reaching out desparetly for independent, unbiased validation on several fronts here!)

My first efforts with ME+ remind me of my pre Misty Evening efforts with grey paint. Here's what I did, Mixed the 30-30-20-20 formula in a one shot solution (30% glaze and clear flat base each, 20% ME and Silver each). Power mixed for 10 minutes. Painted test board prepainted with ME. Applied one coat of ME+.
Here's a snap atop my ME screen.

After, drying I took a series of screen shots. All of them are consistent with the following images. Just so there's no 'what if' I shifted the board in the second shot, ie, reversing the position. First shot ME on the left, ME+ on the right.

Here's the exact same shot with the board reversed. It isn't hard to tell which is which. This time ME+ is on the left, Me on the right.
Soooo..., what did I do wrong?

CMRA: Your posted shots look almost EXACTLY like mine from last week (except your pics are much higher quality), but I used the wrong Silver Metallic paint. I was just about to mix up a new batch using the Behr SM #743 when I checked for posts. Interesting. I should have some results by tonight.

MSMan: Funny, I had a 20 mile screw-up yesterday! Forgot my paint when I left my daughter's for home! If I get the same results as CMRA with the ME+ I will be following your instructions!!!!

John in Northern NY

Scoob,
Your posts of over a week ago with your side by side shots showed a dramatic improvement of ME+ over ME. CMRA's pics show the exact opposite.

Scoob indicated that he calibrated his PJ for the ME+. CMRA, what is your PJ calibtrated to? Could it make that much of a difference? I seem to recall that Scoob indicated that the setting changes, pre and post recalibration, were very slight.

I believe scoobs formulation calls for 30% of SM and Glaze. 20% of Flat base and ME. It looks like you swapped the SM for the flat base

Scoob, let me know if my ingredients are right first. Family pix enclosed.

jcardona: Unless I looked at the wrong post by Scoob, CMRA (and I) have it right - 30-latex base, 30-faux glaze, 20-ME and 20-SM. I just put a coat on over my ME+ from last week (made with Sherwin-Williams SM) and it looks identical so far. Let's hope it dries differently. I expected some "sparkle" from the Behr SM and hence, the ME+. I didn't get it, yet.

CMRA: My cans/jar look exactly like yours, except I am still using my True Value clone ME paint which should make no difference. And my foam roller is a different color!

Patience, I keep telling myself!

John in Northern NY

Just to remind everyone...Scoob's first ME+ was the following:
33% Faux glaze
32% clear flat base
20% Misty Evening
15% Silver metallic

He acknowledged the percents were probably plus or minus 5%. So for the first time on Nov 7 in this thread the formula was rounded of to:
30% Faux glaze
30% clear flat base
20% Misty Evening
20% Silver metallic

That's theoretically slighlty more silver than the first ME+ and I don't know if that is why CMRA's screen looked so dark.

As Shaggy would say....Scooby Doo where are you?....we need your input.

Well, my first coat of ME+ is fairly dry. The pic attached here shows the significantly darker grey color (ME+ is on the left, ME on the right.) There is some sheen to the dried surface but not as much as with the S-W glaze metallic mix I used last week. There is no sparkle to the finish. BUT, the pictures look better than with the glaze I used last week. Suffice it to say that, at first take, the blacks are significantly blacker (no surprise) and the brightness initially is lower but acceptable. Stay tuned, I want to watch it more (with HDTV) split screen with ME and get other opinions. I will attempt another snapshot or two. As you may remember, I struggle mightily with my digital camera.

John in Northern NY

Hello all-
Busy day.

CMRA-
I'm shocked that your shots look like this. Not at all what I've got, and yes, the materials you have look to be the correct ones.

Your first shot looks reasonable with the difference of "gray" between the two, but the ME+ does look a little dark compared to mine. I'll have to check that, but as I just painted my screen this weekend, I can say that the difference wasn't so much darker as grayer (without the green/blue tint).

Beyond that,I'm Stumped! I painted mine two coats on a wet-sanded ME base and I love the results. The projector settings were actually a little more changed than I originally posted when I did the full screen. But the whites should not be killed the way these shots portray.

Last night I took a bunck of ss, but haven't yet processed them. Let me do that and I'll post some in a while.

This is the arrowhead shot from Gladiator. The color reproduction is not accurate in this digital pic BUT the relative difference between ME+ (left) and ME (right) is.

John in Northern NY

Since I no longer have ME to compare against, you have to useyour imagination - or your mouse to go see the comparable shots I posted earlier. These are all from Gladiator (my favorite movie? You be the judge).

I think you'll agree that my whites are not being killed the way CMRA's seem to be with his test panel. Again, let me say I'm stumped. But maybe with some calibration, his will improve... Time will tell. Digital Video Essentials is only $18 + s/h!

First up, some of the 3 white men.

A more complex shot with whites and blacks.

Maximus!

Hand job, er shot.

OOPS! I thought he was...

Max again. Highness:rolleyes:

Mustn't forget the sister. Love that sky blue.

A special tribute to MississippiMan. Going all the way sideways.

I have to wonder, if I used ME as a Base Coat and then applied a transparent 'silver' mix, that is, silver metallic suspended in a glaze like top coat, what would be the effect? Have you given something like that a go?

That was my original idea, but I couldn't roll it. I suggested that the sprayers try something like that, but no one ever replied one way or the other. If you have the means, I'd give that a whirl.

So how many people have duplicated scoob5555's success with his mix? Are most people coming out with the shade of gray that he is, or are people coming up with CMRA's problem?

So CRMA, is it fair to say you personally are still seeing best results with 2 coats of ME over 2 white basecoats?

Scoob, are you seeing the best results with 2 coats of the 30-30-20-20 mixture over 2 white coats?

MM, what is your "easy to do, hard to screw up" recommendation?

I'm getting so confused...

One other question. I asked this on the Gatorboard/Gatorfoam (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=322581) thread as well, but do you think that material is a candidate to paint if Parkland is hard to find locally? It also seems like that material may be easier to mount than the Parkland. MM, is it still a good idea to wet-sand if I ended up trying to paint the Gatorfoam?

Thanks for any enlightenment, guys.

I tried the ME+ formula 30:30:20:20 thereabouts on a small 2x2 test panel a couple days ago, and found only a slight difference when placed against my ME screen. Images on the ME+ were ever so slightly darker (producing ever so slightly darker blacks--maybe) but also made for a slightly duller white than the ME. My wife said "I can't really discern a difference---certainly not worth repainting your screen for...I'd leave it alone :)"... I tend to agree. Back to the drawing board for me.

On a small section of the panel, I also mixed up MississippiMan's SM/UPW formula; and found it to ever so slightly whiten the whites over ME, but again didn't seem worth doing a full repaint over for me (I project with an l300u).

I must mention that I mixed my sample batches of ME+ paint using a soup spoon...~6:6:4:4 spoonfulls of each...certainly not scientific. The 20%'s were SM and ME; 30% Clear and 30 %Faux Glaze YMMV

I've been following this thread, please take notice.

on page 1, 11-02-03, 5:58pm

SCOOBS MIX IS... 33% FAUX GLAZE
32% CLEAR FLAT BASE
20% MISTY EVENING
15% SILIVER METTALLIC

ON PAGE 4, 11-10-03, 1:58PM

SCOOBS MIX IS... 30% FAUX GLAZE
30% SILIVER METTALLIC
20% MISTY EVENING
20% CLEAR FLAT BASE

Take notice... the CLEAR FLATE BASE and the SILIVER MATTALLIC are switched.

SCOOB HELP US OUT PLEASE (DOING A GREAT JOB SCOOB, KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK ALL OF YOU)

Hard to keep all of that straight when I'm typing it so much. The corect formula is the one I've written several times now (with the exception of that one):
30% Faux Glaze (Behr #748)
30% flat base (Walmart ColorPlace #5053)
20% Silver metallic (Behr #743)
20% Misty Evening (Glidden Evermore flat masonry/stucco)

As I've suggested, these can be changed to tinker with the formula. I only stopped because I was satisfyied with the results of the above mix - and I was running out of my 2nd quart of ME fast.

If I were to continue to tinker (say if the wife quit glaring at me as I disappear into the basement), I would add more ME to the mix at the expense of the flat base. It's just a hunch, but I think that has the best potential of any change.

And I painted this formula over my previously complete ME screen (2 or 3 coats of Kilz2 primer then 2 or 3 coats of ME). I thought about painting over the ME with a few coats of Behr Ultra Pure White eggshell, but opted not to since my test panels were completed over ME.

And I did 2 coats of the ME+ over my ME screen.

I can confirm the same results that CMRA posted. Unfortunately, my pics are not worth attaching but the slightly improved blacks at the expense of crushed whites as posted by CMRA yesterday are exactly what I am seeing with my ME+/ME split screen. I just noticed one difference in mixtures - I used flat, white CEILING paint instead of masonry/stucco for my ME mixture. But I am pretty sure the only difference there is in the paint's consistency in application rather than any significant change in results as a screen. They are both stlll flat, white bases with the same tints added. Any comments from paint experts on that?

Scrawner - are our wives related? Mine had almost the exact same comments as yours to the ME+!

I am not giving up on ME+. I have not recalibrated to the ME+ side of my screen yet. Later.......

John in Northern NY

I've also gone through the entire thread assembling together the pieces to come up with a somewhat comprehensive overview of the parts list and directions. Below are my findings. Can someone confirm this for accuracy. I wouldn't want all of scoob's hard work to get lost in the thread details.


Scoob5555 DIY Theater Screen
======================

Roll on technique.

Materials needed:

1 - 4'x 8' doAble board (or an equvalent material with a white glossy surface)
2 - "Medium " Large Wet Sanding Sponges
3 - tack cloths
1 - 4' "Screw On " extension Pole
2 - 1/4" Nap "Lint Free" Rollers. (Best quality)
2 - 6" foam roller. (Best quality)
2 - Large "Roller" Paint Trays


Primer:

Kilz2 primer


ME+ Topcoat Mixture:

30% Faux Glaze (#748 Behr Premium Plus with Style, Faux Glaze)
30% Clear Flat Base (Walmart Color Place #5053 - Interior Latex Flat Wall Paint)
20% Silver Metallic (#743 Behr Silver Premium Plus)
20% Misty Evening (Glidden Evermore flat masonry/stucco)


NOTE: When rolling, use a light, even coat with unidirectional rolling (to avoid transition smudging)

1. Use a doable board from Home Depot, (4'x 8' with a white glossy surface)

2. Scuff sand the surface then prime with Kilz2 primer using the 1/4" Nap "Lint Free" Roller

3. Allow a full day of drying

4. Scuff sand the surface then prime with 2nd coat of Kilz2 primer using the 1/4" Nap "Lint Free" Roller

5. Allow a full day of drying

6. Add 1 layer of pure ME

7. Allow a full day of drying

8. Wet sand smooth and clean with a tack cloth

9. Add 1 layer of pure ME

10. Allow a full day of drying

11. Wet sand smooth and clean with a tack cloth

12. Add 1 layer of ME+ Topcoat Mixture using the 6" foam roller

13. Allow a full day of drying

Good except for the mix is 30:30:20:20. But let me reiterate: these are subject to tweaking and I encourage folks to try different mixes - especially in light of the results from Actonweber and CMRA (which I still can't explain).

And I personally had 2 or 3 coats of ME before adding 2 coats of ME+.

I have two coats of ME under one coat of ME+ - so far. I hope to get to the calibration for ME+ tonight.

scoob5555: You're right about the amounts. Sorry, it was a bad cut-and-paste job on my part....thanks.

actionweber: I added a second undercoat to the directions to better reflect your actual implementation.

I've edited the post in-place so it is still easy to copy-paste by everyone.

I wanted to at least get a more comprehensive baseline of materials and directions for those of us unwilling/unable to do these great experiments on our own. Given this baseline, you are always free to modify the base to match your own pj and environment....but having a baseline to start is like having a recipe you like, but want to tweak "just a bit" for your own taste.

Thanks all (especially scoob) for the findings up to this point.

Well, after calibrating for ME+ and saving to a different USER setting:

Cinema Black - changed to OFF (higher lumens from lamp)
Contrast - no change, MAX
Brightness - increased from 33 for ME fo 46 for ME+
Black Level - changed from OFF to HIGH
Sharpness - increased from 36 to 52

All other settings on my SONY HS10 were unchanged.

I watched some of GLADIATOR, TOY STORY 2 and MATRIX-RELOADED on the split screen, switching back and forth from the ME to the ME+ settings, my eyeballs going from the ME to the ME+ side to compare. Recalibrated, the ME+ was better than before - whites not so crushed and more vivid blacks. BUT, we still like the ME better. It just "feels" better. I never did get the quality of picture that scoob shows in his posted snapshots. We are going to live with the split screen and dual settings until Thursday - I think I will put ME back on top of the ME+.

John in Northern NY

If one were to go with just straight ME, are the basic directions bcortex compiled still correct?

Originally posted by actonweber
Well, after calibrating for ME+ and saving to a different USER setting:

BUT, we still like the ME better. It just "feels" better. I never did get the quality of picture that scoob shows in his posted snapshots. We are going to live with the split screen and dual settings until Thursday - I think I will put ME back on top of the ME+.

John in Northern NY


Hello from Vancouver!


As a bow to the versital yet simple merits of ME, I have decided that, for this trip at least, the wall involved will receive a pure topcoat of ME over Primer. The application is slated for an X1, so working toward increasing contrast levels through a 'grayer' base color seems redundant, and incorporating the SM for it's 'reflective gains' unnecessary for a totally light controled Theater featuring a 1000 lumen PJ.

So ME it is. So off I go, at 11:45 pm to prime a wall.
It's snowing, the heaters are percolating at the jobsite, and nobody is awake in beautiful downtown Duncan, BC who cares.

..............but they will, they will!

I'll save the SM for the 14 foot screen in Jersey this Saturday.

Originally posted by Gray Davis
If one were to go with just straight ME, are the basic directions bcortex compiled still correct?

No, kinda, well, sort of.

NOTE: When rolling, use a light, even coat with unidirectional rolling (to avoid transition smudging)

1. Use a doable board from Home Depot, (4'x 8' with a white glossy surface)

<<<<<<................unless you can use a sheetrock wall, or Parkland Plastic "Poly Wall" sheet.>>>>>>>

2. Scuff sand the surface then prime with Kilz2 primer using the 1/4" Nap "Lint Free" Roller

<<<<<<<<<<<Use 3/8" roller for Primer>>>>>>>>>>>>

3. Allow a full day of drying

<<<<<<Less if temp above 70 degrees or heat &/or fan assisted.>>>>>>>

4. Scuff sand the surface then prime with 2nd coat of Kilz2 primer using the 1/4" Nap "Lint Free" Roller

<<<<<<<<< "Wet sand the initial primed coating lightly. then apply another primer coat with the 3/8 nap roller.>>>>>>>>

5. Allow a full day of drying.

<<<<<<< That's about right.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

6. Add 1 layer of pure ME

7. Allow a full day of drying

8. Wet sand smooth and clean with a tack cloth

9. Add 1 layer of pure ME

10. Allow a full day of drying

<<<<<<<<<<< STOP! You've reached nirvana. >>>>>>>>>>>>

Originally posted by MississippiMan
Hello from Vancouver!

So ME it is. So off I go, at 11:45 pm to prime a wall.
It's snowing, the heaters are percolating at the jobsite, and nobody is awake in beautiful downtown Duncan, BC who cares.



So they let you tote paint with you on an airplane? Across international borders? Only you MissMan would be 14-7 at midnight. If God's a projectorhead, you'll have no worries.

All-
I've been thinking of coming out of "retirement' (wow, almost a whole week!) to try a few things. What do you think about:

1. Instead of painting one coat of ME+ on top of pure ME, painting a base coat or two of UPW-flat or eggshell? Then maybe you could realize the benefits of the white, while still achieving some of the benefits of SM and ME.

2. As mentioned on another thread (not my idea) combining the "Mississippi Mud" with ME or ME+ top coat to get the benefits of a reflective base coat (even more so than white base) and the benefits of ME or ME+, too.

Uh. Errr. Groan. Must stop spending money on new paint... Take my credit cards, please! Maybe I'm withdrawing from the constant paint fumes?!

Originally posted by scoob5555
All-
I've been thinking of coming out of "retirement' (wow, almost a whole week!) to try a few things. What do you think about:

1. Instead of painting one coat of ME+ on top of pure ME, painting a base coat or two of UPW-flat or eggshell? Then maybe you could realize the benefits of the white, while still achieving some of the benefits of SM and ME.

*************Hey.................., I'm awake, having slept not one whit last night doing exactly as you just suggested, Scoob5555!


2. As mentioned on another thread (not my idea) combining the "Mississippi Mud" with ME or ME+ top coat to get the benefits of a reflective base coat (even more so than white base) and the benefits of ME or ME+, too.

************Heeeeeeey................., that's coming up on Saturday in New Jersey, but I'm going to cut the ME with 1/3rd additional UPW-Flat

Uh. Errr. Groan. Must stop spending money on new paint... Take my credit cards, please! Maybe I'm withdrawing from the constant paint fumes?!

************Heeeeeeeeeyyyyyy........., <sniff> That explains <sniff> a lot. <sniff, sniff>

Behold, a 6 hour "start from scratch" painted ME screen. See how it's done on no sleep, no less.

Fairly straight wall, got lucky this time, only had to cover some Screw heads and a few ridges.

Prime opportunity to make a wall become a screen

First Prime coat drys and what do I see? A few pinholes & craters, and a few nicks. On goes a spot treatment of mud over the offending areas.

Ok Mud drys, the entire screen surface receives a light sanding and another coat of primer

Almost there!

Trying out the 'coverage' aspect of ME. Note the difference between a thin coat (L) and heavy coat (R)

First coat of ME complete!

Here is the dried, (by Heater) finish. It's just one coat, but one coat done rightly. A double undercoat of UPW-F as primer allows for a more uniform "One Coat' of ME, and should help the ME retain some extra reflectability, maybe even help prevent the dreaded"Crushed Whites" syndrome.

We'll see later today as the man from the Bottoms brings you, direct from duncan, BC., the "X1 Story"

If I recall Correctly, MM suggests a layer of SM mixed with UPW. I don't recall the exact ratio but it was heavy on the SM.

He then applies a top coat layer of ME with the intention of having enough transparency of the ME layer to allow the previous SM/UPW layer to show through.

Many people, including CMRA, have commented that it seems difficult to control the amount of transparency and a second coat of ME would basically cover the SM/UPW layer completely.

How about this idea....
Apply the SM/UPW (I think also referred to as Mississippi Mud). Then, rather than pure ME, mix the ME with clear accent base.

Intuitively I think this would provide greater control over the transparency. Once the Accent base dries clear it would leave behind a more transparent film of ME. This would theoretically allow the SM/UPW layer to show through.

It seems to work in my mind's eye anyway. Before trying something like this I would like to know if others this this makes sense...at least in theory.

Hello, i'm a new poster to this subject here. i've been following w/great interest. i'm just mudding my walls now and the painted screen seems an excellent start for a firts HT. question: several posters refer to wet-sanding to either prepare a surface or knock down shine. could someone (or two) please describe your technigue? what type and grit of sandpaper, any particular stroke pattern, etc.

thanks

never mind - now is see the materials list that specifies "Medium " Large Wet Sanding Sponges. many thanks to those who bring important info forward in the threads

Scoob, MissMan, and all other 'magic mixers' following this thread,

How would you improve ME? Personally, I am extremely pleased with the overall results. If anything seems lacking to my eyes is the CR that ddog's formula excels at. Would everyone agree?
Assuming we are all on the same page, that is, agree this is ME's shortcoming, what could be done to modify ME and give it that missing ddog characteristic?
Earlier, I was convinced ME+ was the answer. However my results did not duplicate Scoob's. Hence, back to the shop. Since some of you have experience with his formulation, perhaps you can shed some 'non ambient' light on this matter?

Hello MMan:
Please either call me or email me once you settle down in Duncan. I did not get your reply from my PM as my inbox was full.
Thanks,
Frank
Victoria

Looking at MM's wall project I couldn't help but wonder:

> That the primer was a very nice white....has anyone tried projecting an image on primer?

> Thin and thicker coats of ME: Too bad we couldn't see a projector image on that split coat (thin and thick ME) wall! Would have been interesting to see the difference!

Fleaman

CMRA-
See my post from earlier today. I suggested a few things - both of which MM is already doing this week and weekend (including the above wall). I still may try my second idea with the "Mississippi Mud" base and my ME+ on top. If done correctly, that one has serious potential to shine brightly where needed and go deep for the black parts.

Originally posted by scoob5555
CMRA-
See my post from earlier today. I suggested a few things - both of which MM is already doing this week and weekend (including the above wall). I still may try my second idea with the "Mississippi Mud" base and my ME+ on top. If done correctly, that one has serious potential to shine brightly where needed and go deep for the black parts.

This is the part where the mad scientist is suppose to interrupt and say "you morons, don't you know anything about liquid metal...I'll be back!"
My mind keeps thinking silver particles in suspension over ME, that's the trick. Excuse me while I shake up some new concoctions.

sometimes you don't know where to start. Meanwhile, while the rest of you were enjoying your home theaters I was entrenched in creating an enriched version of ME. I could go into a long exhortation, but I'd rather let my screen shots do the talking.
The first is a series from Chicago. They look familiar, they are suppose to be. For comparative purposes, you know. All images show ME against my Deluxe formulation. Some are more definitive than others. Tell me which you like best.

#1- Amos

Mary Sunshine

"You morons, don't you know anything about liquid metal...I'll be back!"

....................and thanx to all who chimed in to answer posted queries while I lay comotose.


Fleaman, you wrote:
"Looking at MM's wall project I couldn't help but wonder:

> That the primer was a very nice white....has anyone tried projecting an image on primer?

Oh yes, many times. And with the X1, the results can tempt you stop right there. The problem with other PJs mentioned predominently on these threads (Z1 - Pannys etc.) have significantly reduced CRs, necessitating the use of greys (...and Greens!) tto increase black levels.

Hence, the ME I'm using over the primer.

> Thin and thicker coats of ME: Too bad we couldn't see a projector image on that split coat (thin and thick ME) wall! Would have been interesting to see the difference!

Ask and ye shall receive. I couldn't do such last night *AM) 'cause I was blasted. Today I was toasted. This evening I'm roasted. But it's 11:36 PM, I'm up from my 6 hour nap, and rarin' ta..............ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzz.

First, an image on ME alone, then one on a split screen of ME "Light"..., ME with 1/3 addition UPW-F added

Flesh tones and Fish, with a smattering of wizards.

this shot is special. Can anyone tell why? ( Hint: look at the blacks on the left)

the reporter. This is rather demonstrative, don't you think?

Roxie-puppet1

Roxie puppet2

Yep, last one for now. Anybody like the improvement?

..............wwwhat? ;)

The lady's black coat looks so black, you can imagine the touch and feeling of the Felt

Looks like the improvement your seeking is pretty darn close, CMRA.

Wish you were more prompt with you revelations, as I have only a limited time here to "split screen" and then decide on what formula to leave them with on the wall by tomorrow eve.

OK, now we're all intrigued. What the heck are you using? And don't say it's an UPW panel! These look like my original ME+ shots, only the brightness is even better with exactly the same blacks - so overall CR is improved dramatically.

PLEASE. I feel like I'm in the latter part of a Gallagher show when he goes into his Sledge-O-Matic routine. "Don'tcha wanna know what the hell it is!"

Does anybody have a link to split-screen shot(s) of images on ME against UPW or BO material?

-Preston

OK, CMRA. WHAT GIVES? Your timing couldn't be better. I am going to do another coat of something over my ME/ME+ split screen soon. Assuming the portions of your recently posted pics that are lighter, brighter and yet still with good CR are the "Deluxe" version of ME ..........SHARE IT WITH THE WORLD! So I can try it this weekend!

John in Northern NY

CMRA, you got it son! So how much AL dust did you put in?

I'm not through yet. I'm still playing Igor down in the basement.
Anyway, here are some SSs from Moulin Rouge. ( Yes, for comparison purposes) Keep in mind, these were zoomed in, unlike the last, and SDE is noticible.
#1 Christian

another Christian pix