Now it says 720p. lol silly fox.

33-1 (?) WHNS is on.

I am getting 16 X 9 Stretched picture on 57-3. Doesn't look like HD.

Hmm same here. 33-1 isnt in 16x9 or HD.

I am getting 16x9 stretched on 21-1. its upconverted sd right now.

Originally posted by AppState
33-1 (?) WHNS is on.

Off Topic- The Puppies must pay on Saturday for our redemption!

I'm getting 21-1 now but not in HD. Is the Cards game being shot in HD? Not good for us if it is - that means no pass through ie no change. Come on WHNS, you can do it!!

Yes the Cards game is being shot in HD.

Calvin their is a change though in that this signal is coming through at 720p now, eventhough it isn't the fox hd feed.

I just found out that WHNS is up and running with the splicer. They have moved so fast to get this on line that the splicer is not connected to the switcher yet and they are manually having to switch the splicer in and out by hand so do not expect them to get it right all the time to start with. From what I understand, Rube Goldberg would be VERY proud on how they have this thing hooked up! It is all literally being held together with chewing gum and duct tape so expect some bumps along the way, until they make it permanent in the next week or so, but they are on the air with it.

You may need to rescan your OTA receivers. From what I hear, some of the PIDs have been changed to make it work in HD.

OMG it just changed to HD. AHHHH. lol

Looks good. If only both teams could lose it would be perfect.

Lookin GOOD!

YAY!!!!!!!

All Right...

Fox Eng thanks for the updates.

Now I feel that our HD is mostly complete, WASV is not that big of a deal right now,because if you have an antenna the UPN in rock hill is easy to pick up and its in HD.

Looking great! Switched over just as it went to commercial break before the game was to start. You could tell because the 5.1 kicked in and the screen went to 4:3 with black sidebars. It's come and gone since then but thanks to foxeng we know why. Kudos to WHNS on a job very well done!

OK, now that that's out of the way...

...any word on when WLOS will boost their signal? It's the only one I'm missing now.

Good job, WHNS.

I'm so jealous of all you...says the Charter cable customer!

My DISH 811 keeps mapping 57 to 33, and thus, I am unable to get the 21-1 station :( Can anyone help????

Originally posted by gjlowe
My DISH 811 keeps mapping 57 to 33, and thus, I am unable to get the 21-1 station :( Can anyone help????

Try a rescan of your receiver.

Foxeng---thanks for the response. I tried that, and it maps 57 to 33, hence, I stop receiving all of the WUNC digital channels. While this is ok for the baseball game tonight, I still want my NOVA! Is there any reason why it would be doing this?

I'm not technical enough to say definitively, but I don't think it's mapping 57 to 33. I think it could be appearing in both places (like WSPA can be seen on 7.1 and 53.1). I was getting WHNS on 33.1 (or 33.something), but now the WUNC channels have taken its place. I can still get WHNS on 57.3, though.

I see...unfortunately my receiver is not being as cooperative as yours...

Well...it comes on on 33-1...so I have no PBS, but damn...Fox in HD!! One question...is this full power? I have intermittant drop outs, even with a relatively decent signal (65%).

Getting Fox 21 right now at 93% on my Radio Shack set top antenna in Simpsonville. Damn, it might not be pretty all the time, but they did it. Everyone here should drop Fox an E-mail and thank them. The chief engineer's name is Jerry Garvin. Gives a new meaning to "Jerry rigging".

Yes...nice job to get this awesome game on! Thanks Jerry and thanks WHNS!

Let me also add my thanks to WHNS. This was a fine job by the staff and the engineers to get this up and running tonight. I enjoyed watching baseball history unfold in beautiful HD!

Nice job on the HD WHNS! I was in a nother room listening to the game more than I was watching it, but I only saw one time where the control room didn't switchover properly. We saw network feed (grey screen) during a commercial segment, but I never noticed a time where we missed any game video due to a missed switch.

I'm more than willing to accept that type of problem if it means getting HD on line a week sooner!

Now if 40 will just start passing through the network HD feed instead of upscaling the regular feed, we'll be all set. It least we have all the major networks now.

On a nother note....what are they going to do about Fox mapping to channel 33-1? I now have two 33-1 as I also pick up the NC ETV stations which are mapped to 33-1 to 33-5. At least my TV will allow me to watch both stations. When a press 33-1, it turns to the ETV station, but if I hit channel up, it switches to the FOX station and yet still shows 33-1. Hit the channel up again and it goes to 33-2, etc. It sounds like some TV or STB get confused and only show one 33-1 station.

I have been told that the channel remapping problem on WHNS was fixed this morning. It should now be remapping to channel 21 instead of 33. Since I don't receive WHNS over here in Greensboro, I can't confirm that.

I can confirm it. Channel re-scan this morning put 57 on 21-1 on a Samsung SIR-t351. I'll check the Sammy t150 this afternoon.

Yep...it was fixed before I went to work this morning.

I'm glad to see we have some good contacts for the local stations! Does anybody have similar contacts with Charter? Do we know when they'll be adding our new local HD feeds to their service? I'm seriously considering going to a satellite + OTA antenna, since I'm missing all this HD football!

PS: This is my 1st post. Great forum!

Well, I called Charter last night to inquire about HD channel expansion and was told there were no immediate plans to add any more HD channels. I got the standard "we're working on it" line. Doesn't seem like it would be a chore to add Discovery, Cinemax, TMC, or the networks if they can get the feed to the Charter office or wherever it originates.

The problem is money. We have to pay these companies money for each subscriber. Example, in the last three years, ESPN has jumped up about 300%+ for each sub. WSPA,WLOS and Fox want money to pass their HD signals on the local levels. I know the Discovery channels are the next target, but again it is money that is holding it up.

When I hear of some movement on this, I'll let you know.

cruxer, I have Charter and an over the air antenna, and it works great.

I know that the local stations want compensation for cable systems to carry their HDTV signals. With D* preparing to offer local HDTV to their subscribers, does D* have to do the same kind of negotiations with the locals? For me, this is academic question, since I do not have a clear view of the southwest and a dish is not possible. I also can not get WSPA-DT OTA in my part of north Asheville.

Originally posted by IfixitBIG
The problem is money. We have to pay these companies money for each subscriber. Example, in the last three years, ESPN has jumped up about 300%+ for each sub. WSPA,WLOS and Fox want money to pass their HD signals on the local levels. I know the Discovery channels are the next target, but again it is money that is holding it up.

When I hear of some movement on this, I'll let you know.

cruxer, I have Charter and an over the air antenna, and it works great.

I personally believe these stations should receive some compensation for there HD siganals. As long as the amount is based on the number of Charter HD subscribers. Charter charges extra for their HD package, so I dont see why it could not be worked out.

I am with DirecTv and OTA for my HD, but if Charter ever got the NFL ST, and had all locals I would probably dump the dish.

I wonder how much the local channels want? My Charter bill is as follows:

Date Description Amount
10/16- 11/15 Biggest Value Package 68.99
10/16- 11/15 Service Discount 18.99 CR
10/16- 11/15 High Speed Internet 3m 42.95
10/16- 11/15 Service Discount 12.96 CR
10/16- 11/15 The Movie Tier 4.00
10/16- 11/15 Addressable Converter 3.96
10/16- 11/15 HDTV Service 3.00
10/16- 11/15 HD Pak Movies & Ent 3.99

Sub Total 94.94

The HD Pak is for the 2 HDNet channels and ESPNHD. The HDTV service gets you the Mot 6200 STB and WYFF HD and HBO & SHO if you subscribe to them. The 3.00 a month would have to cover the bandwith that Charter is using out of their physical plant to provide the service and for the STB itself. That does not leave much, if anything to share with the local stations. I am still curious if the local stations would want the same thing from satellite providers. At least they do not ask for royalties from antenna and tuner manufacturers.

Does Charter still have to pay the local stations once they change their "must-carry" designation to the digital station?

Also do you know if Charter offers a box that accepts OTA channels alongside cable? I don't have a built-in ATSC tuner, which is why I'm considering satellite. I understand that converters are available that will accept the satellite and antenna inputs for HD.

I use DirecTV and OTA for my HD signals. I've experienced and heard of so many horror stories from Charter Communications that I don't even bother with their HD package, especially when its still in "beta" testing for the most part. If I weren't using DirecTV for HD, I might consider going C-Band aka BUD (yeah, I know, it might be old school, but its PQ knocks the socks off anything else, plus look at all of the free wildfeeds and backhauls you get). I've got some many trees that a big dish doesn't seems feasible. Cable is just so expensive for what little you get when it works, so I'm happy with my dish.

I was looking for info on HDTV to purchase which lead me to this site. I'm pleasantly surprised to find this thread for where i live. First off i'm a "rookie" in the HDTV area, this weekend my son and i are going looking for a new family tv. Presently we are looking at the Sony 55XS955, 55wf655, and the hitachi one cant remember name like vs810. I honestly do not know anything about HDTV besides Charter and Directtv have HD packages. Personally my family and I hate charter but i cant live without cable internet. My desire for HDTV is purely sports driven so ABC,CBS,FOX seem to most important to me along with primetime tv for my wife and the kids are still small so dvds and kid shows. From what i have read those channels are avaible OTA so i will need an anntena to get them.

There are my family's needs, my question to you guys is exactly what do i need to get fullfill those needs. Show i stay with Charter with their HD package or switch to D-TV (FOOTBALL PACKAGE)and honestly does it matter if i have to use antena anyway. So i will need to buy an antenna and maybe a preamp from what i read, what antenna do you guys recommend? This is the most scarey purchase i have ever made due to the fact i'm nervous about the SD channels PQ because a large % of the veiwing of the TV will be on those channels for the kids. I cant even think of the grief my wife will give me after shelling out the dough for this setup and having worse PQ on most channels. So any help would be appreciated ie Charter or DirectTV, Antenna which one, Pre-amp???

Thanks
Jon

Originally posted by jeccleston
I was looking for info on HDTV to purchase which lead me to this site. I'm pleasantly surprised to find this thread for where i live. First off i'm a "rookie" in the HDTV area, this weekend my son and i are going looking for a new family tv. Presently we are looking at the Sony 55XS955, 55wf655, and the hitachi one cant remember name like vs810. I honestly do not know anything about HDTV besides Charter and Directtv have HD packages. Personally my family and I hate charter but i cant live without cable internet. My desire for HDTV is purely sports driven so ABC,CBS,FOX seem to most important to me along with primetime tv for my wife and the kids are still small so dvds and kid shows. From what i have read those channels are avaible OTA so i will need an anntena to get them.

There are my family's needs, my question to you guys is exactly what do i need to get fullfill those needs. Show i stay with Charter with their HD package or switch to D-TV (FOOTBALL PACKAGE)and honestly does it matter if i have to use antena anyway. So i will need to buy an antenna and maybe a preamp from what i read, what antenna do you guys recommend? This is the most scarey purchase i have ever made due to the fact i'm nervous about the SD channels PQ because a large % of the veiwing of the TV will be on those channels for the kids. I cant even think of the grief my wife will give me after shelling out the dough for this setup and having worse PQ on most channels. So any help would be appreciated ie Charter or DirectTV, Antenna which one, Pre-amp???

Thanks
Jon
I recently purchased a Hitachi 51F510, which is the 51" CRT-Projection set. I did considerable research, and I decided that the Hitachi was marginally better than the Sony, although they were both well-regarded. I am delighted with its performance, after returning a Samsung, which was not very good at all..

I use DirecTV, with the Hughes High-Definition DVR (Expensive!) which also has two off-air tuners, and can record either off-air or Satellite, two shows at once.

The consensus for antennas seems to be the Channel-master 4-bay (4224?) or 8-bay (4228) (Mine) Bow-tie/panel, since it has high gain, and a fairly wide pattern, permitting many to receive several channels without moving the antenna. I get CBS, ABC, NBC, UNC, SC-ETV, Fox, and even UPN without changing the direction. From my location, however, I cannot even detect the WB station on Digital, and the analog is very weak.

Keep in mind that this is a UHF-Only design, but I get a strong signal on Channel 9!!!

For a preamp, get the Channel Master 7777. There others, but this one seems to have good gain, low noise, and reasonable immunity to overload from strong signals. I tried a Radio Shack preamp, and it was a disaster if my antenna was anywhere near pointed to the Toccoa station.

As for Cable and Internet, you should be able to drop the TV, and keep the internet if you want to. I believe this is mandated by law, and I know others who are doing this. My son in GA has Internet only, and uses Vonage for telephone, and Dish Network for TV.

If you buy a TV, and a tuner, and want to experiment a little, I have an antenna and a preamp which I no longer use. If you are interested, please PM me...

Jon - all three of the sets you mentioned have integrated ATSC tuners, so that cuts down your costs significantly. I live in Simpsonville too and use a Channel Master 3010 Stealthtenna ($35.99 from SolidSignal.com) and a Channel Master 3042 preamp ($22.99 from SolidSignal.com). I'm still too lazy to get around to mounting the antenna, but even with it just sitting inside and on my living room floor, I can very reliably pick up ABC, Fox, NBC, CBS, ETV, and WUNC in HD.

One advantage with Charter is being able to use their HD-capable DVR. You can use the HDTivo with DirecTV, but I believe that costs a grand. If you have digital cable now, upgrading to their HD package with a DVR would be an extra $14 ($4 for HDNet, HDNet Movies, and ESPN-HD; $10 for the Moxi DVR; if you subscribe to HBO and/or Showtime, you get their HD-equivalents without any additional cost). You wouldn't be able to timeshift any of the locals in HD aside from WYFF, but I really like the DVR and see that as a huge checkbox in Charter's favor. My only big problem with it now is that Charter has HDNet and HDNet Movies transposed on the channel guide, which makes recording from those channels kinda problematic.

The question for you might be if Sunday Ticket is more appealing than a comparatively cheap DVR. Either way, you'll be using an antenna for locals, and the nice thing there is that it's a one-time cost, and even if you get a much nicer antenna than the one I mentioned, you should still be coming in somewhere in the vicinity of $100 - $125 for an antenna and preamp -- half that if you feel comfortable with what I mentioned.

So let me get this straight the TVs i'm looking at have integrated ATSC tuner so i will not have to buy/get one from Charter or D* , i will just need an antenna for OTA HD channels? NOw my main worry is that my regular digital channels will not look as good as they do now my sony. How is you guys SD channels on a HD TV, when ever i go to BB/CC they tell methat cant get regular channels and just want to show me HDTV and the demo DVD. To me SD tv is still very important.

Jon

Originally posted by jeccleston
So let me get this straight the TVs i'm looking at have integrated ATSC tuner so i will not have to buy/get one from Charter or D* , i will just need an antenna for OTA HD channels? NOw my main worry is that my regular digital channels will not look as good as they do now my sony. How is you guys SD channels on a HD TV, when ever i go to BB/CC they tell methat cant get regular channels and just want to show me HDTV and the demo DVD. To me SD tv is still very important.

Jon

You might want to think carefully about a set with included DTV (ATSC) Tuner....

On another forum, there was discussion recently about a new 4th generation chipset, which allows reception of DTV signals under much poorer conditions than previously. This tuner was able to receive in areas where NTSC was unwatchable, and it's performance received praise from the engineers at Sinclair, who up until now had condemned ATSC to failure.

The inclusion of a tuner might be a little cheaper than an external box, but when the newer tuners become available, you can't remove and resell the original one to a bargain-hunter, which you could do with an external tuner.

My 2c

Originally posted by jeccleston
I was looking for info on HDTV to purchase which lead me to this site.
....... So any help would be appreciated ie Charter or DirectTV, Antenna which one, Pre-amp???

Thanks
Jon
Jon

Here are some answers that I can give to the best of my knowledge

1. HDTV can be viewed in LCD, DLP, CRT and plasma TV’s. You need to buy a TV that already has a HDTV tuner built in or one that is HDTV ready. I have the latter and I bought a Samsung HDTV tuner. There are better ones than that like LG for OTC reception.

2. I subscribe to DISH but not their HDTV package. I am happy with local stations HDTV. You can get almost all of them via an outdoor antenna.

3. Channel master 4221 UHF antenna is good for picking up many HD stations. The 4228 is two 4221 joined and can pick up even more stations. The 7777 is a preamp that can amplify signals. Most HD channels are in UHF and you should get them with either antenna +/- the preamp. For local VHF signals you may or may not pick them up reliably with this antenna. The choice is to keep local stations (Basic or extended basic) Charter plus the internet for the time being and see how reliable is the local station’s non HD reception via the antenna. Unless you want discovery HD or other football packages in HD you do not have to subscribe to those on Charter.

4. PBS of Greenville and Asheville have lot of kids programs on High definition. Lot of repeats- but do the kids really care?

Good luck in your venture.

Originally posted by jeccleston
So let me get this straight the TVs i'm looking at have integrated ATSC tuner so i will not have to buy/get one from Charter or D* , i will just need an antenna for OTA HD channels?That is correct.

Originally posted by rchalk
You might want to think carefully about a set with included DTV (ATSC) Tuner....If he buys any recently-produced TV, he's going to have an ATSC tuner integrated into the set. It's standard-issue nowadays. If he wants to avoid using the internal tuner and spring for an external tuner down the road, there's nothing stopping him. To get up and running, I think he'd be fine using the internal tuner. I live in the same general area as Jon and haven't had any problems using the tuner built into my XS955.

Originally posted by Adam Tyner
That is correct.

If he buys any recently-produced TV, he's going to have an ATSC tuner integrated into the set. It's standard-issue nowadays. If he wants to avoid using the internal tuner and spring for an external tuner down the road, there's nothing stopping him. To get up and running, I think he'd be fine using the internal tuner. I live in the same general area as Jon and haven't had any problems using the tuner built into my XS955.

That may be becoming the standard with higher-priced sets, but it is definitely NOT "Standard Issue". Almost none of the under-$2000 sets have DTV tuners (including Samsung and Hitachi).

There was a misleading reference in the recent articles concerning the new chipset and the tuner demonstrated - the tuner was described as an LG3100A, but, in fact, it was a demo unit enclosed in a 3100A cabinet. I don't believe the new units are out yet, so there is very little difference between the current crop of "better" tuners.

Also, I did not mean to indicate that he couldn't use a newer tuner in the future, only that the $200 or so that it adds to the price of the set was locked in. Paying a little more for an external tuner provides the option of selling it later to someone on a tighter budget, and recovering some of the cost.

When I looked at the current crop of sets, those with internal ATSC tuners had fewer external inputs as well, which means that using an external tuner later uses up an input. The trend, however, seems to be to provide more inputs, so this may not be an issue.

Originally posted by jeccleston
So let me get this straight the TVs i'm looking at have integrated ATSC tuner so i will not have to buy/get one from Charter or D* , i will just need an antenna for OTA HD channels? NOw my main worry is that my regular digital channels will not look as good as they do now my sony. How is you guys SD channels on a HD TV, when ever i go to BB/CC they tell methat cant get regular channels and just want to show me HDTV and the demo DVD. To me SD tv is still very important.

Jon

Under some conditions, the NTSC pictures may not look great. This may be due to several factors, such as:

-The picture may be much larger than what you are used to, and the flaws show up much more.

-The HDTV sets provide up-conversion to the native display, either 1080i, or 720p (usually). This requires circuitry to interpolate the video for the conversion, which may lack memory or speed capacity to handle large amounts of random information like noise.

-The higher display resolution is more capable of displaying the imperfections like noise, ghosts, ringing, etc.

In my opinion, I never liked large-screen NTSC because of the high visibility of the scanning lines. With up-conversion, this is not a problem, and I much prefer the pictures on an HD display, even with the imperfections.

Hi Jon,

Welcome to the forum. Just a few months ago I was a rookie myself. I lived in an apartment for the past 7 years and had the digital package from Charter feeding my 32' Wega. As I was saving to buy a home I budgeted a good deal for a home theater setup to include my first HDTV.

Reading the Rear Projection Forum here will provide a lot of information, and there are a lot of threads discussing the pros and cons of each technology. I might also suggest going to Jeff Lynch TV in Greenville and looking at their showroom. They've got just about all of the top brands and you can view regular SD programming coming from both Charter and DirecTV.

While there the first thing that jumped out at me was how much better the regular SD channels looked coming from DirecTV than Charter. They had a 57 inch and 51 inch Sony LCD nearby and one had Charter and one had DirecTV so I was able to see first hand the difference. So if you are wondering if the regular channels are going to look worse I would say definitely if you're going to stick with Charter no matter what brand or technology you go with. HD is going to look great coming from either.

For me the decision to go with DirecTV had been made long before, and I couldn't wait to move into my new home and be rid of Charter forever. What I saw at Jeff Lynch just confirmed it. As far as programming packages go I strongly recommend going with DirecTV and their HD package, and getting a good OTA antenna & pre-amp to pull in the local HD channels. I actually have a new in box Channel Master 4221 antenna if anyone is interested.

I use the HD Tivo from DirecTV which integrates the local HD channels into your DirecTV program guide even though it isn't coming from them. This allows you to record HD content either from the DirecTV HD package or from your OTA Local signals. I'm a single father of 4 kids so I don't have a chance to watch much live TV. The ability to time-shift HD shows is invaluable. Also since it has two tuners the kids can be watching a regular show while I am recording an HD show. The drawback to the HD Tivo is that you'll need $1000 start-up cash. To get a regular HD DirecTV receiver without the Tivo capability it would be $300 to get started and that would include two other rooms fed by a regular signal.

I did a lot of research on the different brands and technologies associated with HDTV's, and I decided to go with a CRT based Rear Projection TV from Hitachi. But I didn't have the wife factor to contend with. The safest choice is to go with a LCD Rear Projection TV from either Sony or Hitachi. While a CRT based set is going to have the best overall picture quality there are a few drawbacks that the wife especially will notice. On a CRT based TV you are not going to be able to sit at too many varying angles without the picture darkening a little bit, and when you stand up you'll notice the picture getting darker. For men these aren't big deals, but women tend to notice that kind of stuff. Also with CRT's you'll need to keep most ambient light out during the daytime so that you don't get glare. Again this isn't a big deal for me since I don't watch TV usually until after sunset anyway. But you might hear the significant other say something like "You mean we spent all that money and can't see it as good during the day!." Also the LCD based sets are going to look more technologically advanced since they are smaller and sleeker.

The drawbacks to LCD based sets is that they don't look as good in darker settings so you'd probably want to have a light on in or near the room you have it in at night. Also they don't display blacks too well so they look more like a dark gray. This isn't really noticeable though unless you're some place like Jeff Lynch and can compare an LCD to a CRT side by side. As you'll find the LCD based sets are going to be $1000 to $1700 more than the same size CRT based sets so you'll have to factor that in as well.

The best advice any of us can give is to do a lot of reading and go check these sets out in person looking at varying types of content. What I learned though is that the signal you feed your TV is just as important as the TV itself.

Is fox having problems with the HD broadcast? Im just getting a stretched 720p upconverted image.

Anyone know why WHNS isn't passing the game in HD tonight?

Edit: looks like me and thespy007 has the same thought at the same time, :)

Maybe there are problems at a network level. I noticed a similar comment on the Honolulu thread, at least.

Problem solved!

Ok guys i have my tv setup the best i can until i can get a HD reciever from Charter. I went to RS today looking for antenna and preamp and they were clueless. I showed my wife the antenna i want to get CM 4228 but she said no way that is going on the house so my best option is in the attic. You guys think that will work? here is Simpsonville i'm 28-35 mioles from the towers and if i'm correct they are north of were i live i think they are 356-002 degrees if i remember correct from the antenna site.



Jon

Is the Packers/Cowboys game not being shown on WHNS-DT? I get a black screen, but the regular WHNS is on.

Jon...
Depending upon your location and the terrain, an attic mounted CM 4 or 8 bay antenna should serve you well. What does the CEA antenna locater and recommendation show for your area. (Website: http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/Welcome.aspx
I strongly recommend a rotor if one orientation of the CM antenna proves ineffective in receiving all stations. I tested a CM 777 pre-amp for the past three months, and have taken it out of the system. It proved effective for Channel 9 (PBS) out of Greenville, but caused multiple problems (from time to time) on all UHF stations. In many, many years of RF experience on the management side of TV station operations, I have found too many problems caused by Pre-amps and most were solved by doing away with them.) This is not to say that reception from distant stations (60+ miles) cannot be improved by pre-amps, but too often there is a nearby full power station that over-loads the preamp. Sometimes, it is necessary to notch-filter the nearby stations to balance the system. This is a task for experienced RF personnel.
Otherwise, you are in for a great treat if only you can capture all local OTA signals...and with either cable or satellite, it is still better.

Best of luck.

WHNS finally came on during halftime!

How does the Winegard AP-8275 compare to the Channel Master 7777? WHNS comes in, but it is very shaky. Unlike analog OTA reception difficulty, which is tolerable, DTV signal loss results in loss of audio and heavy artifacting on the image. It seems that that is one area that DTV has taken us backwards from analog....

In addition to the question about the Winegard vs the CM, I have one more question: My WYFF-DT signal holds at 62 and I NEVER have drop outs. My WHNS-DT signal fluctuates from 61-65 and remains green the whole time, but I experience a dropout every 7 seconds or so. It is almost unwatchable. Why would this be happening?

gjowe: At my location, there are several analog TV stations that I could never receive with a useable picture...yet the digital signal comes in with reliability and of course with a studio quality picture. I am very particular after years in the business about video quality, and find the digital age remarkable and overshadowing the 10 to 15 seconds per hour of pixelization. As for pixelization and sound drop-outs, I have between season problems for a couple of weeks, but can easily adjust for that with a slight re-aiming of the antenna(s). I have a number of UHF amplifiers, and the older ones are relatively narrow band. They neither improve, nor degrade the signal. None approach the quality of the CM 7777. The CM 7777 increases the overall signal levels to the point that my 85-90 signal reading for most Digital channels now is 100%, but remember that the amplifier increases both the good and well as bad signals (including multi-path and co-channel, and rf noise). I haven't taken a look recently with a spectrum analyzer, and hope to do so soon...but I have a good idea that the noise level and signal level are both being increases by the same amount. (The CM amplifier contributes very little additional noise.) I would rather use my money to increase the off-air strength by using an 8 bay DM antenna that to add an amplifier which must cope with lin-of-sight signals already at 100%. In summary I now use only the VHF side of the CM amp.

Originally posted by gjlowe
(stuff deleted...)It seems that that is one area that DTV has taken us backwards from analog....



With the current crop of DTV tuners, there is still some succeptibility to multipath and noise, which might give that impression. However, there is a new decoder chip soon to be released which has shown in demonstrations to produce virtually perfect reception in locations where analog signals are unwatchable. Have a look at

rfupdate.broadcastengineering.com/ar/broadcasting_newgeneration_dtv_receiver/index.htm (don't forget the usual "http//" infront of this)

Remember that we are still in the infancy of DTV. We had the analog system for more than 50 years, and improvements were still ongoing well into the 1990s.

DTV as we know it was conceived in 1996 or so, and the first receivers were available about 1998, so we have barely scratched the surface.

I think the DTV results so far are spectacular!!! I, like Jerry, will gladly trade the occasional hiccup for the absolutely gorgeous sound and pictures the rest of the time, knowing that, in the longer term, the hiccups will be cured!

I'm sorry....my statement didn't come across quite as I meant it to. I COMPLETELY agree with the tremendous improvement DTV brings over analog. It is just as big a difference from B&W to color (if not more because of the SOUND improvements as well) . What I meant was that a fuzzy ghosty analog reception could at least be watched, whereas today, when my audio and picture was dropping completely out every 7 seconds, I had to switch back to the SD satellite feed of the WHNS broadcast just to watch the game.

Jerry...I know we have discussed this before, but you would recommend me replacing my long distance directional VHF/UHF/FM antenna and Winegard preamp with a UHF 8 bay antenna and a CM 7777? Would simply adding a tripod and a rotor and the cm 7777 do the trick instead? I am just a little leary of spending another few hundred dollars on an antenna to improve the signal on one station when it may simply be that a better preamp or even raising the antenna slightly more would help. Also, if WHNS is still getting all their stuff configured and maybe even boosting power, then I would be getting everything there is to get in my location.

Thanks for all the replies!

Perhaps the only stations in this area at full power at this time are WSPA and WUNF-DT. As rchalk's posting says, the new generation receivers are designed to solve many DT reception problems. To speed up the process for you I suggest a $50 investment in an 8-bay antenna, or a less than $30 in a 4 bay (various places on the Internet.) CM's two antennas have proved over and over to be excellent. The 8 bay may improve the signal from directly in front of it, but it is very directional and it's side lobes drop off quickly. You may have to re-orient its direction more often than with a 4 bay. The less combining of signals (as in all-band antennas or multiple antennas), the better. Each coupler cuts the signals in half, at best. Thus, I find the rotor a good investment to cover multiple location of transmitters. But, I would try the CM antenna first to see if one orientation will provide stable signals from all stations. It does for me. In-the-attic mounts success depend to an extent on the composition of the roofing material, but asphalt tiles generally pass the signals with little attenuation, except in wet weather. With the gain of the CM bowtie designs or the Yagi type antennas, you usually will have enough signal from the antenna to overcome the weather attenuation. The one problem I have with my in-the-attic antenna is if the antenna is turned directly toward the metal chimney (12 feet away) for WSPA; it will attenuate the signal and I have to point the antenna about 10 degrees away from the station for best results. Who know what full power for all stations will bring...more multipath?...more co-channel? Perhaps the new chip is the best answer to our problems.

All: Strange that WSPA carried a network feed approximately 90 seconds ahead of the CBS HD satellite feed last night between 8-9 p.m., and in SD. Did WSPA switch to HD feeds later in the evening?

After day 1 with the 42we655 i'm very happy. The PQ from charter cable on this set is very nice, as good or better then our 9 yr sony we have been using and this is with just using coax cable until i can get a HD box from Charter. My main issue now is with the antenna for OTA, i checked out my attic last night and there isnt alot of room for much up there. My wife has stated no antenna is going on the roof of our house and i think our covent will not allow it either, hell i cant even put a window a/c up. From the antenna website it looks like
CBS 0 deg 27.8 miles
PBS 327 deg 15.1 miles
TBn 327 deg 15.1 miles
UPN 337 deg 35.7 miles
WB 195 deg 8.5 miles
Fox 325 deg 37.7 miles
NBC 325 deg 31.3 miles
To me it looks like most north/Northwest i jsut have to figure out where the heck i'm going to put a antenna. Last on NBC crossing jordan there were black bars on top/bottem, there was the only show all day like that and no other shows on NBC were like that.

Jon

This has been discussed many times on AVS Forum. A Homeowners association CAN NOT keep you from putting up an antenna, this is per FCC Federal Regulations.

You would almost have to have a flat roof to keep you from installing a 4 Bay CM bowtie antenna. The turning radius is only about 8.5 inches. Look at the specs on CM website. Even outside installations can be hidden nicely on the exterior of most houses. I have no problem shooting through trees...which means some vegitation around it would not be a disaster. If your wife has any favorite HD programs...wait until she sees the quality of HD and that should change her mind...as has been the case for many.

Originally posted by jerry birdwell
All: Strange that WSPA carried a network feed approximately 90 seconds ahead of the CBS HD satellite feed last night between 8-9 p.m., and in SD. Did WSPA switch to HD feeds later in the evening?

I had recorded "Cold Case", and during playback, there was a gap at about 8:30, and the balance was in SD. I had a quick look at about 10:30, and the movie was in SD.

Maybe they lost the HD feed. The DVR stops recording if there is no signal, and resumes when the signal returns, so I didn't get to see what might have been on during the gap. I only know that there was a discontinuity in the program...

Originally posted by enoree
This has been discussed many times on AVS Forum. A Homeowners association CAN NOT keep you from putting up an antenna, this is per FCC Federal Regulations.

lol This might be true but the FCC does not control the loving in my house, my wife does so she has way more power then the FCC or Home Owner association.

Originally posted by jeccleston
After day 1 with the 42we655 i'm very happy. The PQ from charter cable .... From the antenna website it looks like
CBS 0 deg 27.8 miles
PBS 327 deg 15.1 miles
TBn 327 deg 15.1 miles
UPN 337 deg 35.7 miles
WB 195 deg 8.5 miles
Fox 325 deg 37.7 miles
NBC 325 deg 31.3 miles
To me it looks...like that.

Jon

All the above are in the analog Grade A for you except perhaps Fox...and the fact that most are not at full power must be taken into consideration. However, the most important factors are your environmental conditions between you and the transmitters. I have yet to see HD contour maps for this area (nor for Miami and Atlanta as a matter of fact; probably because of the universal low power at this time.) The predicted contours are excellent compared to analog.

Originally posted by jeccleston
After day 1 with the 42we655 i'm very happy. The PQ from charter cable on this set is very nice, as good or better then our 9 yr sony we have been using and this is with just using coax cable until i can get a HD box from Charter. My main issue now is with the antenna for OTA, i checked out my attic last night and there isnt alot of room for much up there. My wife has stated no antenna is going on the roof of our house and i think our covent will not allow it either, hell i cant even put a window a/c up. From the antenna website it looks like
CBS 0 deg 27.8 miles
PBS 327 deg 15.1 miles
TBn 327 deg 15.1 miles
UPN 337 deg 35.7 miles
WB 195 deg 8.5 miles
Fox 325 deg 37.7 miles
NBC 325 deg 31.3 miles
To me it looks like most north/Northwest i just have to figure out where the heck i'm going to put a antenna. Last on NBC crossing jordan there were black bars on top/bottom, there was the only show all day like that and no other shows on NBC were like that.

Jon

For this area almost due North is usually the best. If you go with a CM 4228 you may not need a pre-amp, but I don't think it would hurt either. The issues that Jerry speaks of regarding the CM 7777 pre-amp seem to be unique to the Asheville area as everyone I've talked to in the Greenville area has only had a positive experience using a pre-amp. Before I settled on my final setup I went back and forth as to whether or not to get a bigger antenna, a rotor, a pre-amp, or different combinations of the three. For me the pre-amp made the difference, but I've got a different antenna from most so I can't say my results would apply to everyone.

I'm using a deep fringe yagi, pre-amp, and a CM rotor on a 30 ft telescoping mast. I get excellent SS on all stations. And I am in Enoree at the bottom tip of Spartanburg county.

I agree with all of the comments from previous postings. As you can tell, if you point your antenna due north, you might not be able to get WB (WBSC Ch. 40). That's the situation for me. I have a rotor on mine, so I just spin my antenna around. A rotor is also useful when weather condition get harsh, so you can "center in" on the specific station you want to watch. If you have a highly directional antenna, a rotor is a no brainer, but they are also useful with "mult-directional" antennas, such as the 4228. Preamps are a toss up. If you need one, use it, if not, then don't. There's no one solution that works in every situation. It's mostly a trial and error process...see what works for you.

Any word on when WLOS will boost its power? Now that FOX is up, ABC is the only one I'm missing.

Jon, you do not need much space in the attic for the CM antenna that will help you. Do NOT let the wife affect your antenna choice, you will regret it in the long run. I live near Simpsonville, my 4228 is in the attic, and I get all the channels. I have a rotor but rarely use it. Call me or e-mail me and I will tell you how I did it. An antenna in the attic will work. Did you REALLY want to get on the roof and mount that thing, run the wire and everything?

Paul B.

on a totally unrelated topic: has anyone tried to watch "Desperate housewives" in HD on WLOS-DT? The picture I am getting is totally unwatchable - very jittery and jumpy. It will be fine for a few secondss - then the audio will slip and the picture jumps. Anyone else seeing this? It has happened to this show the past two weeks. I do not have the same problem watching MNF. what is the deal?

Originally posted by calvinb
on a totally unrelated topic: has anyone tried to watch "Desperate housewives" in HD on WLOS-DT? The picture I am getting is totally unwatchable - very jittery and jumpy. It will be fine for a few secondss - then the audio will slip and the picture jumps. Anyone else seeing this? It has happened to this show the past two weeks. I do not have the same problem watching MNF. what is the deal?

Calvin do you have a Hughes E86? I have watched all the episodes of this show with no problems. However, WLOS is the only channel that has constant audio drops and pixelization on my Hughes E86. The channel comes in rock solid with my RCA DTC100. I hooked up the old RCA and only use it when I watch WLOS. Hopefully this E86 problem will go away when they boost their power.

This is a newbie question on CM 4221 antenna. Which way should the antenna face in order to get most of the signals? I need to aim between +340 degrees and +10 degrees to get the best picture and I want to try and aim the center of the antenna at +350 degrees. Should the center of the flat surface be pointing in that direction or should side that has the prongs and where the coax cable gets connected be pointing. I have tried to point by trial and error and get mixed results.

Thanks

Re CM 4221 orientation

Trial and Error is the only solution. Two or three degrees can make the difference in receiving most all stations, and the loss of even the nearest, strongest signal due to phase cancellation. I point my antenna at the weakest (WLOS) signal, and it receives WSPA which is 90 degrees to the left. However I have modified the antenna to broaden the pattern...mentioned several months ago on this forum. If you want to try the same thing, let me know.


Your location may be totally different.

I have experienced zero problems with WLOS since I was able to receive it once I got a rotor on it. I have a Hughes HTL-HD. I'm getting an 80+ signal strength, and the signal is 100% stable...no pixelization or audio drops. Sounds like a lack of signal strength for those of you having problems.

Getting 94 on WLOS in Enoree with my yagi, I also get 82 on WB40 from the backside of my antenna when the front is aimed towards WLOS, as the WB40 tower is in Fork shoals vicinity.

enoree

It sounds like you have the setup that all digital OTA enthusiast salivates to have. What are the characteristics of your particular location? I mean, do you have lots of tree or other objects? Do you live on a hill or in a valley? I know your antenna is good, but just wondering about the details of your location. I'd like to pull in some more content, but I know surrounds has a lot to do with it as well, not just birds and poles.

I just my charter box and i found myself watch the Navy/Rice football game replay on hdnet. OMG there is no going back now. Even my wife was very impressed. She couldnt believe how good you could see the grass on the field. What are you guys talking about signal strength? is that on the STD you buy? I have almost turned my wife on the antenna after tonight.

Oh yeah where do i get a Avia DVD to calibrate my set. I know i can buy on amazon but i dont want to wait till next week to get it. DVD play seem alittle red to me.

Since installing my pre-amp I get low 90's for WLOS, WSPA, WYFF, WHNS, and WASV. I get around 84 for WBSC which is the direct opposite of where my directional antenna is pointed. It's up on the 2nd story of my house, and I've got very good line of sight in all directions.

jecclestion

The signal strength we speak of is for OTA reception of the local stations in the area. Right now, this is the best way to receive HD programming, as it is the best picture quality available, opens up the best world of programming, and is FREE! If you don't have a good antenna yet, get one, and join all of us (we'll help you with the kinks). For calibrating your monitor and sound, Avia discs are the best choice. BUT, some DVDs you buy might have a THX Optimizer section on them that work for a basic set. I've got Miracle and it has it. I think I read that the Lion King II does as well. Check some of your recent DVDs to see if it has it on it. Welcome to the world of HD, and strap in for the ride because it gets better all the time.

Thanks Dashaund i'm pretty sure we have LK2 dvd since i have a 4 yr old and 1 yr old LOL, i will use that till i can get one from the net. I'm going get a good antenna but i'm in TALKS with my wife because she doesnt want a ugly antenna on the roof and i'm trying to figure how i can get the job done in my attic. But i think things are moving in the right directions with her because of the HD she saw today, she watches alot of primetime tv.

Tonight i found channel 784 which is NBC HD. Man Law and Order looked sweet but i have a question. While watching ESPNHD and NBCHD i would switch back and forth to check the difference. During commericals the black line would show up meaning not in HD correct? But when i switch to regular channels the PQ was noticably worse and i mean a good bit worse. I was under the impression that the commericals are in NON-HD shouldnt they be the same PQ on both the HD channel and regular? Sorry for all the questions guys but honestly HD is so damn addictive and this forum is a wealth of knowladge that i crave. Thanks again for all the help i appreciate it.

Jon

Originally posted by jeccleston
During commericals the black line would show up meaning not in HD correct? But when i switch to regular channels the PQ was noticably worse and i mean a good bit worse. I was under the impression that the commericals are in NON-HD shouldnt they be the same PQ on both the HD channel and regular? Sorry for all the questions guys but honestly HD is so damn addictive and this forum is a wealth of knowladge that i crave. Thanks again for all the help i appreciate it.

Jon

In most cases, the SD signal you see during commercials is taken directly from the station's master control switcher, and is probably in Component Video. This gives you a picture virtually identical to the station's monitor, with the full available bandwidth for each of the three components. This signal is up-converted to the station's choie for HD of either 720p or 1080i.

The SD signal is probably delivered to the cable company over the air, as a composite NTSC color signal. This means severely reduced bandwidth, as well as the many artifacts present from the color-encoding system. These look acceptable on a regular TV set, but, since the typical HD display has to up-convert, the limitations of the up-converter may further degrade the image.

FYI..the Avia disc is available at Barnes and Noble $49.99 MSRP. Also check Best Buy, some have it, some don't.

I am on fairly level ground with some heavy trees in the path of my local stations, I have a fairly clear path for Charlotte and Columbia stations. I get a higher SS on WBTV and WCNC from Charlotte than I do for WYFF and WSPA. I also get great reception for WOLO(ABC) in Columbia.

(Potentially) silly question:

How much of a difference do leaves make? Will I notice any increase in signal strength after the all the leaves fall? I need all the help I can get with WLOS.

Apps, I have the Samsung 360. Sounds like I need a pre-amp. Dumb question: where do I hook up the pre-amp: coax from antenna into preamp and then out to STB? I assume this is the setup. Is there a local source for the CM 7777? I need to check with Wholesale Electronics. Quick question for our Charter guys: do the HD STB's that you are getting (including the MOXI) have an input for an OTA antenna? I remember looking at one of the earlier Motorola boxes and being surprised that you could not add an antenna. What a POS if that is still true.

I just got a box from Charter this week a DT5100 and from what i see no input for antenna. I guess i'm just going to run the line direct into my TV but i have a builtin tuner if you dont i have no idea what to do. I trying to decide if i want to change to D* instead of charter, what do most of you guys using? I hate charter but they have been the only fish in town. I always worry about PQ for non-HD stuff which my family watches the most. The funny thing is i think my PQ has got worse when i hooked up the DT5100 for digital cable. I think this is because i'm using component instead of coax cable which is "showing" more noise correct?

jon

Originally posted by StrangeCock
(Potentially) silly question:

How much of a difference do leaves make? xxx.

My Pisgah signals come through a ridgeline of thick trees and another dozen or so tree tops about 150-200' away. (Usually, the recent wind took out seven of the nearby trees.) I have never found a major difference in the signal strength from winter to summer. I do have to make a minor adjustment in the antenna orientation. The type of tree makes some difference.
I can assure you that most pine trees can soak up UHF signals in a major way, but this usually is a year 'round problem.

Unfortunately, nowadays, most providers SD stuff is pretty bad. I have D* and can boast and say that their PQ is HORRIBLE in SD! I know a lot of people here have D*'s HD package. Flip back and forth between ESPN (206) and ESPNHD (73). Yuck! I don't have digital cable and never have and never have watched it and can't really say. Make sure you use the best hook-up possible (DVI if you have it, component if you don't). I've found DVI does make a huge difference in SD stuff, more than it does for HD, IMHO. I guess that's why I find myself watching local DTV stations more and more because any other SD channels on D* make me want to hurl. I think you can read my previous posts and see what I think about Charter, so I won't restate the obvious. Looks like you'll have to get an OTA tuner along with that Moxi box, since they only want you to watch their programming...

Originally posted by jeccleston
I just got a box from Charter this week a DT5100 and from what i see no input for antenna. I guess i'm just going to run the line direct into my TV but i have a builtin tuner if you dont i have no idea what to do. I trying to decide if i want to change to D* instead of charter, what do most of you guys using? I hate charter but they have been the only fish in town. I always worry about PQ for non-HD stuff which my family watches the most. The funny thing is i think my PQ has got worse when i hooked up the DT5100 for digital cable. I think this is because i'm using component instead of coax cable which is "showing" more noise correct?

jon I started with Dish Network when we moved here, because there was no Cable, but at the end of the year, I switched to DirecTV. I bought the HD-DVR, and the service is very good. This box has TWO off-air tuners, and two Satellite tuners, and can record any two in combination. I frequently record, say, Cold Case and American Dreams simultaneously, while watching a third, previously recorded show.

It has gotten to the point where we almost never watch anything in real-time, since skipping all the BS - excuse me, Commercial advertising, saves about 15 minutes out of every hour, and spares my ears from the likes of the KIA OF GREER!!!!!!! Guy...

The ONLY thing I miss is the local weather updates on the Weather Channel.

If you are a BellSouth customer, and subscribe tothe right combination of services, you can save additional money by subscribing to DirecTV through the BellSouth website. Even as an existing customer, I was able to save $10 per month, so my Satellite bill, with 125 channels, HD Package, Locals, and two TIVO Receivers (the second one is SD only) is under $50 per month.

Originally posted by rchalk
and spares my ears from the likes of the KIA OF GREER!!!!!!! Guy...

Now that is funny.
.....

.....

....
Damn you.....now I can't get that voice out of my head! :mad:

Originally posted by dashaund
Looks like you'll have to get an OTA tuner along with that Moxi box, since they only want you to watch their programming...
And since you mentioned DVI output in your post, it may be worth noting that DVI isn't supported on the Moxi boxes currently. The connections are physically present, but they aren't enabled. I think the goal is for those to be active by the end of the year, though.

I'm still having a headache getting HDNet and HDNet Movies listed correctly on the Moxi programming guide (they're transposed), and e-mails and phone calls haven't seemed to be doing any good. I've also tried contacting Tribune Media, who supplies the programming data based on a Charter-provided channel map, but I haven't gotten a response from them. A Charter employee in another market has graciously offered to try bypassing the SC offices entirely and contacting a regional manager about the problem, so hopefully this will do the trick. (It's mildly annoying to have to tell the Moxi to record a two and a half hour movie like The Killing Fields when all I want is a 22-minute TV show, but at the moment, it's either that or setting my alarm to wake me up at 2:30 AM.)

Adam, I have gone through those exact steps with Charter and Tribune. It is exasperating. How hard could it be for Charter to correct this issue?

HI GUYS,

I have a question. I just ordered the Square shooter 2000(the newer version of the ss-1000 and with an amplifier). I am in Spartanburg, 29301 and antenna web.org tells me that the fox and nbc are in the blue zone. WILL THIS ANTENNA HELP? OR SHOULD i LOOK AT ANOTHER ONE? P.S. I live in a country club with a bunch of snobby f..ks so I don't want to put up a big antenna. any suggestions or help is appreciated.

I severed ties with Charter about five years ago for just these reasons. Looks like their customer service hasn't improved any. How do you offer an HD STB that does not have an input for an OTA antenna? That is just outrageous and inexcusable. D* is the polar opposite with regard to customer service and their approach to HD programming. The famous $99 HD deal is proof enough of that. For $99, I got the Samsung 360 HD STB, the triple LNB dish, and the ability to add the antenna. And in my opinion D* SD is much better than Charter's SD. A buddy of mine just got the Moxi box and his SD is just awful. Of course one reason is we all have these 16x9 TV's that are stretching the images. Bottom line: DirecTV is better than Charter. It's too bad there is not another cable provider in the area.

I hate to say it but i'm ruined now, i cant watch regular tv after just afew days of HD. I watched West wing and L&O last night on nbchd awesome but now i find myself bitching about the nonhd all the time. My only turnoff right now is the volume of channels. Last night on NBChd the volume during the show was so low i had to have volume almost full but commericals were normal level. This problem happens for regular channels but for evreything not jsut commericals.

Ps just read your post calvin and i told my wife we are switching to D* after i get my antenna up and running right now i cant live without ESPNHD and NBC HD. My question is do you think it will be possible to get all locals in HD over D* or Charter? NBC HD is nice to watch

jon

WHNS-DT- Does anyone know if they plan on permanently stretching 4 x 3 programming? The picture quality is poor compared to the 4 X 3 non stretched all the other stations are using. Also, the voulume is extremely low when in the stretch mode, but the volume is right on par with everyone else when they are broadcasting HD.

I was wondering as well how long this board would allow WHNS to get away with giving us a stretched/zoomed SD picture. Needless to say, I am extremely greatful for their efforts in getting the HD passed through, but in general A/V types that lurk here are not tolerant of anything but OAR. The picture doesn't bother me as much as the sound, however. It's extremely hard to watch due to the muffled, low sound during SD programming.

I have no problem with the stretched SD picture as long it is a quality production and good video is stretched for digital transmission. The syndicated video tape programs, and local news tape, are inferior to the Fox Network PQ, and I prefer they not be stretched. Now, if the station can make that distinction, I would vote for a stretched network feed when not in HD.

jeccleston:
(and all regarding audio levels):
WSPA's Chief Engineer Peeler insists he is following manufacturer's guidelines in setting the WSPA audio level, and as a result it is much louder than most other stations, including WCBS-HD from New York. It seems as though we should be pushing all the stations to monitor eachother and set levels to match. As for NBC-HD, on WYFF, i usually find it matches satellite HD and most other digital local signals (except WSPA). My sound system blasts me out of the room, and others throughout the house when I switch to WSPA without turning down the sound by at least 10dB.

As for network HD, the satellite companies have announced they have immediate plans for re-broadcast of local HD in the top 100 markets within months...some as early as next January/February if not sooner. So, don't expect local stations' HD signal by satellite any sooner. (Except, of course, the markets where CBS owns stations, then its local viwers are already granted a blanket waiver for both east and west coast HD feeds.)

Regarding this forum's influence on local stations:

None of the stations monitor this forum on a regular basis. I have relayed a concensus of concerns to both General Managers and Engineering management and seem to have at long last gotten their attention regarding some issues. However, without strong local viewer participation and an ever increasing HD penetration into the market, the HD side is a VERY LOW priority. With recent increases in participants here, we are getting faster and better answers than we were a year ago!

Originally posted by jerry birdwell
I have no problem with the stretched SD picture as long it is a quality production and good video is stretched for digital transmission. The syndicated video tape programs, and local news tape, are inferior to the Fox Network PQ, and I prefer they not be stretched. Now, if the station can make that distinction, I would vote for a stretched network feed when not in HD.

Several of us have either CRT or Plasma displays, which are subject to Burn-In. My manual says that reduced-screen and static images should be limited to about 15% of the total time.

Even watching HD network with 4:3 commercials, at about 16 minutes per hour, exceeds this recommendation, and if the programming were to be run in 4:3, it would present unacceptable risk to the screen.

I like the picture quality, even of the SD programming up-converted (WSPA, WYFF) but it is unwise to watch it all the time...

The 'stretched' SD eliminates the side panels. The Burn-in problem is why most stations send gray bars to help solve the problem...if they do not stretch to fill. However, most all stations leave a narrow black space that causes me a concern regarding burn potential. I have never found WSPA and WYFF to stretch the SD programs to fill the wide screen HD sets. If I want to fill the screen, I must do the stretching with my set...and that causes too much distortion. I am not concerned with burn during just the commercial breaks, providing the stations are using a gray surround.

Originally posted by jeccleston
Ps just read your post calvin and i told my wife we are switching to D* after i get my antenna up and running right now i cant live without ESPNHD and NBC HD. My question is do you think it will be possible to get all locals in HD over D* or Charter? NBC HD is nice to watch

jon

You might want to take a look at my antenna setup for DirecTV. I'm including a pic in this post. What you see is the round dish (for SD) and the oval dish (for HD) and the black square is the OTA antenna. From an aesthetic standpoint this is a very nice setup. And with a pre-amp I can get all of the local stations. Just thought I'd throw this in since you're dealing with the "wife factor."

I've noticed the WHNS-DT problem but haven't really said anything. I mean, they got HD up for the World Series and are trying to fix it to where the splicer switches on its own. Anyone catch the NFL on Sunday? The splicer didn't switch to the late game, and they neglected to switch it till the 2nd half. Basically, that splicer is being held together with duct tape and chewing gum. I hope the fix the stretch problem soon because I personally can't stand to watch it like that..ERR! I hate distorted pictures! Bring on the grey bars! WSPA might have their sound levels set correct, but when will they get it on time with the video. Oh yeah, we've beat that dead horse... Anyway, they'll get all of these things fixed someday. Also, the HD locals might be a while but remember...they'll be highly compressed and will probably lose a ton of PQ. Think it, they've got to cram over 100 local markets in HD onto a handful of satellites. Look at our SD locals now compared to OTA. They're so compressed its disgusting. I'm sticking with my antenna.

The movie WHNS is showing in a stretch mode tonight is in OAR HD on WCCB , Charlotte. Apparently WHNS does not have the splicer fully operational yet, because the splicer is supposed to be under the control of FOX master control.

Originally posted by enoree
Apparently WHNS does not have the splicer fully operational yet, because the splicer is supposed to be under the control of FOX master control.

No, the splicer is under LOCAL control only.

Anyone see the WB HD test feed at noon on WBSC (40-1)? It looked really good. I think they were showing Smallville. No 5.1, but I'm sure they're working on it. Audio was in sync, at least. Once they get going, we're only missing UPN.

Jon, in response to your post - obviously Charter is NOT the way to go if you want local channels in HD. They do provide NBC but I would not hold my breath waiting for the others. Since your TV has the HD tuner you can add an antenna but I don't think you get the on-screen guide that some of us have with other providers. If it were me I would get away from Charter and look at both D* or E* or even Voom. I have DirecTV and am very happy. The antenna challenge is one that many of us have taken. I have been very pleased with my CM 4228. It is in the attic and I receive all the local channels. If you are a sports fan like me, you will really enjoy stuff like SEC football on CBS, the Masters, the Olympics and NFL football in HD.

walter, I am very impressed with your antenna setup. One question: why do you have an oval dish AND the standard dish? two different providers? just curious.

Foxeng- Do you broadcast 4 X 3 material in the 16 X 9 stretch format? I assume this is a local decision made by each station. Is there anything more than "flipping a switch" to change the stretch to 4 X 3? Thanks

I agree with calvinb. Especially if you want the locals, get away from Charter. Just today, my internet went out for no reason and I had to call to get it back on. Their service is very slack, and the customer service is really gross as well. Most of the specialist know hardly anything themselves about their service. The only way to get locals right now is with an antenna, and on paper it seems like the best way period. And you can't argue with FREE! Take the challenge, it is worth it, and its not nearly as hard as it may seem.

I also have a question for foxeng: Please clarify your statement about the splicer being controlled...is it supposed to be controlled locally or nationally? I know right now its local. I presume the stretching is being done by some weird setting on the unit. I really want to see it unstretched with grey bars...I hate it stretched because it is so ugly!

So what's the deal with CBS-HD being available on 102.3 through Charter? How is that possible? And does that mean ABC-HD is out there somewhere, too?

Originally posted by dashaund
I agree with calvinb. Especially if you want the locals, get away from Charter. Just today, my internet went out for no reason and I had to call to get it back on.
I had that happen too -- they disabled my modem on Wednesday as part of some attempt to stave off people pirating the service. I've been a Charter customer for two years, subscribe to nearly every service they offer, and pay a much-larger-than-I'd-like bill every month. I'm greatly annoyed that they decided to just go ahead and stop my service without any warning. It took two different support people to explain to me that my modem was incorrectly disabled and a third phone call to get it resolved (they said 3% of the people they disabled were legitimate; lucky me).

Originally posted by StrangeCock
So what's the deal with CBS-HD being available on 102.3 through Charter? How is that possible? And does that mean ABC-HD is out there somewhere, too?
I'll rescan when I get back home and let you know. I haven't checked to see what my QAM tuner is picking up in 5 weeks or so.

Well i got lucky and i guy at work had a used CM4228 which i have put into my attic last night but putting a new cable line was alittle harder then i thought. Tonight i will have to ssome drilling.... so hopefully i will have HD locals tonight. I dont have a preamp or rotor yet but we will see how things go. What does channel 102.3 mean? i dont see anything like that. When i hit antenna on my remote i get 4, 6 c3-1 .... i have a 42we655 hopefully i will be able to get nbc,cbs, abc ,fox without moving the antenna we dont ever watch WB.

As for D*, i told my wife i was going to switch over to them after i get my locals up and running. She was happy, she hates Charter with a passion. I'm jsut wondering how much $$$ it is going to cost me to get setup with D* as a new customer, from what i have read the great deal seems to be for already existing customers. You would think they would have a good deal for new guys too.

Jon

Someone said that they were testing HD earlier today. Does anyone have any more info or know when they might start broadcasting HD all the time??

102.3 is the channel number for WSPA-DT on Charter. To receive this, you must have a QAM tuner (sometimes in TVs...Samsung makes an OTA that receives it). Good job on getting the antenna going, it'll be worth it. You may have to adjust the antenna to get all of the locals in correctly. DirecTV does do deals for new customers. I believe they have one going right now for new HD customers. A box, programming and all for $99. You might want to check on that. Even though D* has their flaws, they are still right now the best way to get HD.

Jon, your biggest upfront cost with D* will be the HD STB, the oval dish, and the install. Look around the HD threads and you will find several phone numbers to call. Don't settle for the first CSR that you speak to; make sure they know that you currently have HD thru cable and that you are interested in a competitive deal from them. I doubt you will spend more than $200 total for the install and new hardware. Plus you will have one of the newer STBs that will integrate your OTA antenna. I am very pleased with mine and very pleased that I never have to deal with Charter. I have internet service thru BellSouth and am happy with that also. good luck.

Originally posted by nlowhor
Someone said that they were testing HD earlier today. Does anyone have any more info or know when they might start broadcasting HD all the time??

Right now they are broadcasting a 4 X 3 with gray bars. I checked the other night and Smallville was not passed in HD.

Originally posted by Apps1
Foxeng- Do you broadcast 4 X 3 material in the 16 X 9 stretch format? I assume this is a local decision made by each station. Is there anything more than "flipping a switch" to change the stretch to 4 X 3? Thanks

We transmit 4:3 with grey bars. There isn't any switch that needs to be flipped to go to HD except to switch the splicer in and out and the bars are not even in the mix. That is pre splicer.

My understanding is that the stretch is on done on purpose. My suggestion would be if you don't like it, let the station know. If they don't hear from you, they don't know you don't like. I suspect you would need to talk to the Chief Engineer on that.

Originally posted by calvinb
walter, I am very impressed with your antenna setup. One question: why do you have an oval dish AND the standard dish? two different providers? just curious.

I have several TV's that need the satellite signal and only one is HD capable which is the main one in my family room. The oval dish will bring in both the SD and HD signals so it feeds that TV. All of the other TV's including my office,and the children's rooms are non-HD so I have the round dish (which brings in SD only) feeding those. The square antenna is for ota locals. My installer said one of the reasons they use the black square shooter for ota is that it is specifically designed to blend in well with regular satellite antennas and wives don't mind having it on the roof.

If you're thinking of going with DirecTV for their HD package I would strongly recommend that you look at getting the HD Tivo receiver. As has been said you may be able to get a deal and have to pay only $200 for startup for their HD setup including the regular HD tuner, but for just $700 more you can get the capability to record your HD shows including those that come in locally through your ota antenna. You will find that it is hard to arrange your schedule to be able to watch all of the HD shows that you want to see, and more and more they'll be two on at the same time making it even more difficult. With the HD Tivo you can not only timeshift your HD programs, but you can record two at one time.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by walterc
[B]You need the round dish to bring in regular SD programming from DirecTV, and you need the oval dish to bring in HD from DirecTV. "


Or you can just have one oval dish with a triple LNB to get everything.

Originally posted by Apps1
[QUOTE]Originally posted by walterc
[B]You need the round dish to bring in regular SD programming from DirecTV, and you need the oval dish to bring in HD from DirecTV. "


Or you can just have one oval dish with a triple LNB to get everything.

I just edited my post because I realized it was kind of confusing. You can just have the oval dish and even put a multi-switch on it I believe to feed up to 8 rooms. But I needed two HD lines coming into my HD Tivo, and I wanted to leave the two others free for an HD TV that I'll get within the next year or so, so I have a round dish with a multi-switch feeding all of the other rooms.

To anyone thinking of going with DirecTV I would suggest contacting a knowledgeable local installer so you can get the best setup both for now, and for expansion in the future.

First post here.

I live in western Simpsonville just beyond Brashier Campus and was wondering if any knows where I can buy an ota antenna to use in my attic as well as have it installed.?

I am using Dish and really want locals hds.


Hank

bighwk-
Welcome to the thread. I bought and installed a 4228 in my attic. You can order it through any electronics store (except RS). I used Harley Electonics in Spartanburg, check the yellow pages. You can order it on the internet, watch out for the freight.
I also got a 5 foot mast and two mounting brackets. I mounted it upside down at the highest point in the attic. No rotor, no preamp. If you are handy at all this is a no-brainer.
I get excellent results and am well satisfied. Not counting the RS6 cable, I think it cost about $60-$70 all in. Good luck. Let us know how it all works out.

I have noticed that, on WSPA and WYFF, there seems to be a lot of dialog coming from the surround speakers, instead of almost all of it coming from just the center channel. I do not notice this on WLOS, or the HD channels on DirecTV.

My audio connection is Optical, to a Sony Receiver.

Has anyone else noticed this?

Thanks

Re surround...some producers move the sound around more than others...and too often pay little attention to center dialog. Others use a mix to left and right channels. For the most part, network audio is passed intact, as mixed, by the local stations. So, your question may be more for the networks than for the local station.

There is still too much "out of sync" audio on WSPA, although it is plenty loud!. Any other comments to be pass on to the station?

I have spent roughtly 6 hours trying to get my antenna hooked up in my attic. The antenna is up but i have been up able to run a cable up my wall into the attic. I have tried pulled the charter cable up with my second attached with ropes but it gets stuck and i have tried running ropes and cable down. I think there might be a board blocking my way in the wall. Any ideas guys orshould i just get a pro to come an do it. Of course i could just sign up for D* and let tjhem do it =).

Do you have a closet anywhere? Drill a hole in the ceiling and in the floor and run it through the closet. No one will ever see it!

If older cables are allowing you to pull them through, be sure you tape smoothly over the end of the new cable that is attached to the old as you try pulling them through together. The tape should "taper" from the old to the new cable for a connection that does not catch. The blunt end of the new cable often catches on the small holes drilled for the original installation.

The suggestion above regarding closet passage is a good one.

Originally posted by jerry birdwell
There is still too much "out of sync" audio on WSPA, although it is plenty loud!. Any other comments to be pass on to the station?

I am just getting around to watching some of the HD shows I have Tivo'd over the last 10 days. I noticed that on three shows; NCIS, CSI, and Without a Trace the shows were not HD until about halfway through so I'm not sure what happened or if this was a netowork issue or a local issue.

jeccleston-
The above suggestions are all very good. To find if there is a board blocking your way, you can buy a stud finder at Home Depot for $10. Very useful to answer such questions. Also you might try using something much thinner than a rope to pull up the other cable.
Good luck.

Originally posted by walterc
I am just getting around to watching some of the HD shows I have Tivo'd over the last 10 days. I noticed that on three shows; NCIS, CSI, and Without a Trace the shows were not HD until about halfway through so I'm not sure what happened or if this was a netowork issue or a local issue.

They have been forgetting to "flip the switch" alot over the last few weeks. I find myself tuning to WBTV-DT more and more. They have been doing HD for four years now, so you would think they would have it mastered.

Well i have given up, my father in law and i have the same builder for our house. He had the same problem. There is a board halfway down, he had a guy who use to work for charter come and run some lines for him. He said he broght a VERY long drill to get the lines run. I can not pull the cables up thru the board because when the house was buidl they drilled holes only big enough for cable with no end to fit. No closet either this is a middle wall oneside is living room other is bathroom actually that side is the shower in the bathroom. I'm got permission to run cable outside and see if i can pull any channels from the back yard till i decide about D* or pay guy to run line. Is everyone who use D* happy with the PQ on channels? MY father-in law has D* and his local channels do not look good at all.

jeccleston,

Where in Sipmsonville are you? I am real curious as to what result you will have with the 4228 hooked up. I have Dish network and the locals look pretty crappy for the most part. Have you just wired the antenna and tried it out?? I would have it laying in the living room or out side just for some
NFL action today
.

I did watch the enitre salems lot miniseries on tnthd last night and I too am ruined for SD.

Hank

Ok i'm in Stonebridge subdivision, about one mile north of main street on hwy 14. I have my antenna up in the backyard not 5ft in the air. I can get CBS,fox, and nbc with no problems. Cbs/Fox i have facing due north. Now i cant tell if CBS is in HD or not. I was under the impression Normal viewing mode wasnt possible when a show is in HD and i can go into normal moode now. Also the commericals are not with the 2 black line which leads me to think not HD. The PQ is better from my antenna then charter though.

If you are receiving CBS on channel 7.1 according to Titan TV dot com then that Philly/Baltimore game is in HiDef.

Keep us posted

And dump cable. Both Direct and Dish offer better customer service and a better choice of programming.

Hank

Originally posted by jeccleston
Ok i'm in Stonebridge subdivision, about one mile north of main street on hwy 14. I have my antenna up in the backyard not 5ft in the air. I can get CBS,fox, and nbc with no problems. Cbs/Fox i have facing due north. Now i cant tell if CBS is in HD or not. I was under the impression Normal viewing mode wasnt possible when a show is in HD and i can go into normal moode now. Also the commericals are not with the 2 black line which leads me to think not HD. The PQ is better from my antenna then charter though.

The game is in HD on 7-1(UHF 53).

Originally posted by Apps1
They have been forgetting to "flip the switch" alot over the last few weeks. I find myself tuning to WBTV-DT more and more. They have been doing HD for four years now, so you would think they would have it mastered.

Looks like WSPA is having more audio problems. During the game there is an annoying stuttering. This is not network because they just switched to a game that I was watching on Sunday Ticket and there was no stuttering.

I have also experienced audio problems on both
WYFF and WSPA, and I believe it is a station problem. If they have their audio set for 5.1 and the network sends 2.0 the sound is incorrect and you get dialog from all five speakers.
I have spoken with engineers at both stations and they say basically the same thing, they leave the audio set for 5.1 just in case the network sends a 5.1 stream. I'm going to try to talk with engineers again this week.
By the way neither WNCW nor WBTV have this problem because they are passing the 2.0 stream which is apparently what the network is sending because the sound is correct with dialog in the center and surround at other speakers.

Glad it isnt just me then because the Steeler/Pats game is very frustrating to watch with the stuttering.

I thought all of the switching stuff was supposed to be done by master control. Isn't the audio switching done by the splicer, and isn't the splicer supposed to be control by master control? Correct me if I'm wrong (please!), but the way I understood it, master control controls the network feeds being fed to the splicer, and they are supposed to switch the Wegner receivers and all of that bit, so wouldn't they have a hand on all of the audio and video stuff? Basically, if its a network feed, shouldn't they be fully in charge. I notice WBTV has no glitches and everything is cut clean when they do their network stuff. I know I've probably screwed some of this up, so please set me straight. Foxeng, you know all of this stuff, set me straight!

If I am understanding correctly, you are talking about network here.

First off, FOX does their HD completely different than all the other networks. FOX sends what is called an "ATSC Compliant" signal meaning that everything needed to generate the HD and DD5.1 is done at the network level and then literally, the receiver is switched in and out of line by the splicer straight to the transmitter, cutting off anything coming from the stations own encoder.

All of the other networks do not do this. They send a HD signal that requires it to be manipulated by the stations and if they are doing DD5.1, then the audio has to be separated from the video by the stations and then encoded to 5.1 then the audio has to be joined back together with the video and the whole signal has to be re-encoded as a "ATSC Compliant" signal that is then fed to the transmitter. If the station doesn't resync the audio to the video properly after it goes through the 5.1 encoders, you have audio problems. Compound the issue with some shows are in 5.1 and others are not. The early 5.1 equipment didn't differentiate between 2.0 and 5.1 and that has to be manually be switched. To keep the 5.1 experience and not to have just 2 channels, left and right, some stations will keep the 5.1 engaged all the time and you have two different audio times then. To complicate matters more, CBS has two HD network sat receivers. One that doesn't do 5.1 and one that does. My local CBS here, WFMY has the older non 5.1 receiver but has the 5.1 encoding equipment so I get all 5 channels, but there is only 2 channels ever active on it.

Now as far as what WHNS has to do to make the splicer work, all they really need to do is tally the splicer off of their network position on their switcher and let the splicer follow the analog switcher for network. That is what my station does and we do not have "forget to flip the switch-itis" that some stations have.

Hopefully this sheds some light on why FOX did what they did and why.

Thanks foxeng. I have a better understanding of how they do this thing now. I like the way FOX does their network stuff better because it eliminates extra problems that could arise at the local level (for example, continued problems with WSPA's sound). I wish all the networks would do it like that. Are there any glaring drawbacks from doing it like that?

Originally posted by dashaund
Are there any glaring drawbacks from doing it like that?

That is a relative thing.

As far as the station is concerned, they have no control over the signal during network like adding weather crawls or squeeze backs or other type graphics except bugs. The splicer has the station's bug in it so it can be put in and taken out when needed by either network or the station.

As a viewer I know you like that, but from a station's standpoint, that is a big drawback.

But stations were willing to go along in the short term, because it allows stations to get the network signal on for a small amount of money compared to the other networks since the only thing a FOX station needs a 720p signal of some kind. Instead of having many pieces of expensive equipment, stations only need a 480 to 720 converter and a 720p encoder and they are ready since FOX provides everything else.

One of the reason i kept telling myself i did not need to HD was because there isnt enough programming to justify the expense. Today during lunch i firgured out my total veiwing yesterday. During the morning i played with kids and honeydoed till 11:30 like almost every Sunday then i go into total Football gear. 11:30 ESPN pregame show(HD), 1:00 Eagles/Ravens(HD)/Nascar(HD), 4:30 Steelers/Pats(HD), 7:30 ESPN Primetime(HD) till 8:00 when my wife takes over tv for American Dreams, Law and Order, and Crossing Jordan all in HD. Of course i switched to SNF every commerical. Pretty much everything i watched was HD. After watching HD sports it sickens me to watch SD football. Money well spent if you asked me no doubt.

foxeng: I did not understand this portion of your comment above:
"no control over the signal during network like adding weather crawls or squeeze backs or other type graphics except bugs."
Is your comment related to Fox and HD, or network operations in general?

Jon, sounds like you are very close to success with the antenna. As I'm sure you know, the higher you can get your antenna the better. With regard to your attic: do you have a heater or A/C unit up there? If you do, then there should be conduit running from your crawlspace up to it (assuming you have a crawl space). I was perplexed when I first got started but got that tip and it helped. I ran RG6 and 20 gauge wire together down thru two floors into my crawl space and then over to my living room. I'm guessing that if you get the antenna up higher you will pick up WLOS-DT and all the ETV stations if you don't already. Good luck.

Originally posted by jerry birdwell
foxeng: I did not understand this portion of your comment above:
"no control over the signal during network like adding weather crawls or squeeze backs or other type graphics except bugs."
Is your comment related to Fox and HD, or network operations in general?

FOX specifically since the network signal is last in line and fed straight from the receiver to the transmitter. The other network stations could do such things if they had the HD graphics equipment since the HD signal is decompressed back out to HD SDI and then manipulated and all this stuff could be added and then re-encoded to ATSC but almost all (there are a few exceptions) do not at this time because of the cost and 95% of the viewers are still analog.

Thanks

Originally posted by foxeng
The splicer has the station's bug in it so it can be put in and taken out when needed by either network or the station.

As a viewer I know you like that, but from a station's standpoint, that is a big drawback.

Actually, as a viewer, I think that bug insertion for anything more than 10-15 seconds as you come out of commercial is a drawback, but that is from the viewer's perspective.

Personally, I have never understood why the stations/networks have to leave it up throughout the entire program.

And, while we're at it, how about those "Up Now" , "Coming up" etc. banners overlaid on the programs, and covering as much as 20% of the screen? If we don't know what we're watching now, we must be in pretty bad shape...The stations are looking more and more like CNN!!

How about the dings, honks, booms, and swishes added every time a station shows scores, replays, flashbacks, and other miscellany? Don't we have enough noise in this world???

(kicks soapbox into the corner....)

I can't agree more. All of the stations do this sort of thing in an effort to "dress up" their broadcast. I don't mind the little scoreboard in the corner with the time countdown. I'm beginning to become irritable about the ticker at the bottom on during the entire broadcast...and why does CBS have their fantasy stats? Isn't all of that online anyway? But, times are changing. Americans crave the most amount of information they can get at one time, and we're impatient about it. Our attention spans have decreased. I find myself becoming bored during a two hour movie because of my attention span. Heck, with football, you run a ten second play and then wait thirty seconds for the next one. During basketball and hockey, they only play for about fifteen minutes and then have a commercial break. I become shocked when watching games on ESPN Classic at how there is nothing on the screen but the game instead of this other modern hooplah. We've become more interested with the delivery of the product instead of its substance. Fortunately for us HD viewers, we now get both most of the time. Okay, I'm getting off of the stump...

Originally posted by jerry birdwell
Thanks

There is one item that hasn't hit most people that could jeopardize HD in the short term. With the FCC going obscenity crazy with fines and stations not having delay boxes, I am seeing in some of the other local threads where stations have started to install SD delay boxes (there are not any real HD delay boxes yet) and during sports NOT providing the HD feed so the video and audio can be delayed in case someone says something that they aren't suppose to so the stations don't lose their licenses. Since the HD audience is so small, some stations have elected to just route the SD version to the digital channel with the delayed video and audio to avoid the fines.

Jeccleston,

You might take a look at Home Depot or Lowes. They have a kit that includes a really long drill bit (4-5' long), a handle to help control it (it can be bent in a radius with the handle to work up walls, etc), and a wire pull (no more taping your wires together) for about $40.00

It is located in the wiring section with the other wire related tools. It is not located in the power tool section.

Just thought I would throw that out there. This item seems like a neccessity for walls with fire blocks in them. Good luck.

foxeng

I see your point about the boxes. However, if one our local affiliates did that, their phone would be burnt up with calls. 5% seems like a small number, but it isn't. If you have 100,000 viewers, then that is 5,000 watching the digital signal. If half of those called the station, that's 2,500 phone calls. WOW! I think they would pull it. I have two questions: Why aren't the delay boxes at the national level for national stuff? And two, does it really matter at the local level for local stuff, since it isn't in HD anyway?

Originally posted by dashaund
foxeng

I see your point about the boxes. However, if one our local affiliates did that, their phone would be burnt up with calls. 5% seems like a small number, but it isn't. If you have 100,000 viewers, then that is 5,000 watching the digital signal. If half of those called the station, that's 2,500 phone calls. WOW! I think they would pull it. I have two questions: Why aren't the delay boxes at the national level for national stuff? And two, does it really matter at the local level for local stuff, since it isn't in HD anyway?

5% IS a small number when 95% of your audience doesn't see the HD and your license is in jeopardy, stations WILL take the heat.

The Moxi guide issue with HDNet / HDNet Movies has been fixed! Thanks Charter.

Awesome. I sent another barrage of e-mails on Sunday to seemingly everything vaguely relevant on charter.com -- maybe that finally did the trick. Now I just have to see if Andy Richter Controls the Universe recorded correctly this morning or not. :D

Ok i think i have messed up my charter cable while i was trying to pull it thru the wall. My PQ has been poor since i did it. I pulled the "cap" at the end off which i have replace twice but it still ends up pulling off. I can notice the PQ dropping off as soon as the "cap" loosens, right now i have the cap off and just coax stuck into the outlet which isnt working well. Which leads to my next question what wires do i need o run to get D* or do they run them all. Do they use the same lines as charter used or do they run new ones?

My best guess would be that they ran new ones. First off, you MUST use RG6 cable (which is probably what you have for cable anyway), and it cannot have a splitter on it...period. The high frequencies used, accompanied with the fact that it isn't a very strong signal, requires high shielded cable with as little signal loss as possible. To sum it up, you don't want to play tricks with the cable or you will receive very poor or no performance at all. As far as your cabling problems now, either solder a new end on or run a new cable, or install D* (good time to do so, right?). I've installed about six D* dishes...its a very simple process. Heck, I need to get into the mini-dish market because it seems very profitable and very easy to do. The most difficult part is running the wires. Believe me, its worth the effort to go D* than to stick with Charter...trust me. And if you don't want the headache, let a professional do it! Good luck!

I absolutely agree with the above. Stay away from Charter, go to Directv or Dish, you will be thrilled if PQ is important to you. For OTA, the best picture by far, try the CM 4228.

Originally posted by AppState
The Moxi guide issue with HDNet / HDNet Movies has been fixed! Thanks Charter. Aargh. Finally happens, and now my Moxi won't download program updates anymore. (Tried manually triggering it several times tonight; no dice.) It's stuck on extremely stale data from October 28th, so I'm not able to see the change, at least not yet.

AT: Do you have a splitter on the coax coming in to the Moxi? If so, try removing it for a couple of days. My box was having trouble communicating with Charter when split (using a Charter provided splitter), especially during setup. I was also getting some error indicators on the diagnostics screen that possibly implied a lack of two-way communication. Removing the splitter seemed to cure those issues (at the expense of slightly clearer analog).

Hope that helps.

No, I don't have a splitter there. (I have one in a different jack upstairs, though.) I'm going straight from the wall to the Moxi. Out of curiosity, could you check the diagnostics screen and let me know when you received your last program update?

last epg update 2004-11-04 10:01:08

last software update 2004-10-08-09:48:43

software version 3.0.80LR-P.75011

The guide changed yesterday around 8:45 AM while the tv was being watched. Stuttered for a few seconds and the guide was then correct, if that helps any.

Thanks for taking a look at that. Even though it wasn't a splitter issue, I think you might be putting me on the right track. I forgot I'd done this, but on the evening of the 29th, I disconnected and reconnected everything. I was receiving all my channels fine, so I assumed everything was normal, but maybe the cable running from the wall to the box is just loose enough to prevent a download of the guide or something. I'll readjust everything when I get home and see if that clears everything up.

This may be old news but I noticed last night that "Smallville" was broadcast in HD on 14-1.

14-1?? Did you perhaps mean to type 40-1? I am not aware of a 14-1 in the GSP area, or perhaps you are listing the actual station and not what it remaps too. I only know the remapped channel numbers.

"or perhaps you are listing the actual station and not what it remaps too. "

Yep.

Originally posted by Apps1
This may be old news but I noticed last night that "Smallville" was broadcast in HD on 14-1.

This is new news to me so thanks for posting. Now we've only got WASV to go!

Cool. Thanks.

Just a quick question. Has WHNS-DT lowered their signal level over the last couple of days? I'm sure they probably haven't, but I am no longer getting a signal where I got a very stable signal before. I just received my rotor and will hopefully be installing it this weekend, so it is really a mute point, but I was just curious if anyone else is experiencing this.

I suspect it is just the time of year. and the fact that we all probably have to tweak our antenna positions to get optimal reception now that the weather has changed.

Originally posted by sic0048
Cool. Thanks.

Just a quick question. Has WHNS-DT lowered their signal level over the last couple of days? I'm sure they probably haven't, but I am no longer getting a signal where I got a very stable signal before. I just received my rotor and will hopefully be installing it this weekend, so it is really a mute point, but I was just curious if anyone else is experiencing this.

I suspect it is just the time of year. and the fact that we all probably have to tweak our antenna positions to get optimal reception now that the weather has changed.

I haven't noticed any difference.

After a very lengthy couple of phone calls, it turns out my problem with the Moxi was that Charter had reprovisioned the modem in the box (I'm not really familiar with that terminology; they tossed around the acronym "VPR" a lot). They redid that while I was on the phone, and I was then able to download the EPG without any problems. (I'm still seeing HDNet and HDNet Movies transposed, but I'll wait until the box has had a chance to stop and breathe before raising another fuss, just in case the change picks up between now and then.)

Edit: ...and it's not. I guess I'll have to keep pestering Charter. Apparently the Simpsonville channel map is its own unique and annoying animal.

I'm watching WHNS-DT right now, and its an SD show but its in the standard 4:3 and not stretched. Anyone else seeing this? I'll wait till 10pm to see if the local news is like that.

Originally posted by dashaund
I'm watching WHNS-DT right now, and its an SD show but its in the standard 4:3 and not stretched. Anyone else seeing this? I'll wait till 10pm to see if the local news is like that.

During network any 4:3 show that is played off the splicer will be 4:3 with black side bars.

I watched a little bit of the Georgia Tech, NC State game on WHNS-DT and it wasn't listed as HD, but it didn't have the black bars. It did seem like a nice digital upconvert though.

Originally posted by walterc
I watched a little bit of the Georgia Tech, NC State game on WHNS-DT and it wasn't listed as HD, but it didn't have the black bars. It did seem like a nice digital upconvert though.

It was just stretched to 16 X 9. The picture looked horrible on my end. I can not stand to watch when they sretch a 4 X 3 show. Why they dont send out the shows in their original format and let the end user manipulate to their preference is something I dont understand. It took a long time but ESPN-HD figured out that is what people want.

Originally posted by Apps1
It was just stretched to 16 X 9. The picture looked horrible on my end. I can not stand to watch when they sretch a 4 X 3 show. Why they dont send out the shows in their original format and let the end user manipulate to their preference is something I dont understand. It took a long time but ESPN-HD figured out that is what people want.

I don't know about the most recent products, but from earlier experience, the encoders take a while to restart/relock when changing from 480i to 1080i or 720p and back. If they were to do as you suggest, there would be serious problems whenever they change from HD to SD and back.

If this is still the current situation, the station needs to leave the encoder in the HD mode they are using, and up-convert the SD feed before reaching the encoder. This can be either 4:3, or stretched to 16:9, or somewhere in between. There was earlier discussion in this thread about the advantages/disadvantages of running 4:3 non-stretched, and issues of screen-burn, etc.

I can't speak for all displays, but if either of mine is receiving a 16:9 signal, there is no further manipulation possible. I can only do stretch and/or zoom when receiving SD, in 4:3, so if the station chooses to run 4:3 not stretched, there is no choice at my end except to have the side panels.

If ESPN does it differently, perhaps they have more than one encoder, and a way to switch them before transmission. This could be economical given the total number of potential customers, vs the local stations.

Does your receiver change from 480i to 1080i when they change from HD to SD, or does your display allow stretching a 16:9 even wider to make the gray bars disappear?

I know for a fact that WHNS is stretching outside of network. If you want it changed, you will have to let them know or won't be changed.

I e-mailed Stan Crumley myself and told him what I thought about it. All of our other local affiliates that broadcast in HD use the sidebars for 4:3 and broadcast in either 1080i or 720p the entire time, essentially upconverting the SD signal. WHNS is in 720p, BUT the SD picture is stretched and looks horrible. Everyone here that doesn't like the stretched picture, e-mail him at: Stan.Crumley@foxcarolina.com. Don't be afraid to express your opinion! Why they are doing this, I have no idea. Common sense says to leave the 4:3 signal at 4:3 and not mess up the ratio.

Originally posted by dashaund
I e-mailed Stan Crumley myself and told him what I thought about it. All of our other local affiliates that broadcast in HD use the sidebars for 4:3 and broadcast in either 1080i or 720p the entire time, essentially upconverting the SD signal. WHNS is in 720p, BUT the SD picture is stretched and looks horrible. Everyone here that doesn't like the stretched picture, e-mail him at: Stan.Crumley@foxcarolina.com. Don't be afraid to express your opinion! Why they are doing this, I have no idea. Common sense says to leave the 4:3 signal at 4:3 and not mess up the ratio.

I just sent my e-mail.

e-mailed him last night

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by dashaund
I e-mailed Stan Crumley myself and told him what I thought about it. All of our other local affiliates that broadcast in HD use the sidebars for 4:3 and broadcast in either 1080i or 720p the entire time, essentially upconverting the SD signal. WHNS is in 720p, BUT the SD picture is stretched and looks horrible. Everyone here that doesn't like the stretched picture, e-mail him at: Stan.Crumley@foxcarolina.com. Don't be afraid to express your opinion! Why they are doing this, I have no idea. Common sense says to leave the 4:3 signal at 4:3 and not mess up the ratio.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I just sent my email.

FYI. I just changed from a Trek55(a.k.a P.O.S) to the CM4228. Wow what a difference. I now get everything. I also added the CM3044 Multi-Set Indoor Distribution Amplifier. I am 1/4 mile from the Greeville Tech Brashier Campus(as a bird flies). This forum rules!!

I certainly hope all take note of CJWELLS experience with the CM 4228.

I got a nice e-mail respnse back from WHNS stating they are considering all their options, including getting rid of the stretch mode.

Could you post it?

Anyone else noticing audio problem on WLOS-DT for MNF, as in, no audio at all? I've switched to many other channels and have sound, but none on 13-1? If anyone in the Asheville area could call the station, since for me it is long distance, that would be awesome.

No audio here either.

I have noticed a curious problem when watching WYFF-DT through the Hughes HR10-250 DirecTV DVR receiver, using the off-air mode.

The picture brightness seems to flicker, or "bounce" very slightly, at about 2 cycles-per-second. This is not very pronounced, and is most noticable on dark scenes, or during black moments.

Also, there is a repeating sequence of white dots, which appear in the lower third of the frame. They appear two-at-a-time, but jump from one line to another. They can be displayed statically, when playing back a recording, and stepping through frame-by-frame.

Neither of these effects is evident on any other channel. Also, I don't see either problem when watching through the tuner in the RCA TV, although both are fed from the same antenna.

Can anyone else with the Hughes HD DVR see these conditions? Maybe I should be asking DirecTV for a replacement...

Originally posted by dashaund
Could you post it?

Thank you for your feedback. As you can imagine the debate runs deep over the many ways that we can handle existing 4X3 material in the new 16X9 world. The matter is complicated by the fact that the receivers do not always handle the different formats the same way. Initially I had chosen what is known as a 13X9 crop mode that seemed to offer the best of both worlds. As time has gone by I have begun to notice an increase in complaints as some receivers are expanding the 13X9 to the full 16X9 picture format. This does result in a stretched picture that does not look as good. I am looking closely at the available settings and will be making changes as needed to provide the best pictures possible. Your vote does count and we are considering ditching the stretch.



Thank you for your interest in Fox Carolina,

Thanks Apps1

I noticed that WHNS-DT has gotten rid of the stretch mode. We all need to thank them via e-mail.

Does anyone have any news on WASV? I'm now getting black bars on the sides instead of a 16:9 stretch that was there before. It is still 480i/p according to my tuner though(and by visual inspection obviously).

Grrr. I did finally get a response from Charter about HDNet and HDNet Movies being transposed on my program guide:

Thank you for contacting Charter Communications. We appreciate the opportunity to serve you.

I apologize for inconvenience. However, with you beta testing your DVR services is going to swap some of your channels. Until
we have fully launched DVR service, your channels will be switched.

If you have any additional questions or need assistance please contact your local customer support center at 1-800-955-7766.

Since my latest bill shows that I'm paying for this service now, is it really considered beta testing still?

Ha, and an equally incoherent followup from Charter:

I have spoken with our Technical Department. They have informed us that with us not having DVR service fully launched in South
Carolina that some of your channels will be swapped due to we are not fully launched.

Sounds like typical Charter stuff, Adam. It doesn't make sense that you're a "beta tester," but you're paying full price for your service, does it? When I first got my cable modem, I was told that some of my connection problems were due to me being far out and they didn't have their equipment fully ran out. Why offer a service when its only half-way working? Money! If you continue to be frustrated with them and feel like switching, I encourage you to join those of us in the D* ranks. We have HD Tivo if you want a DVR (I don't have one, so I can't speak from first hand experience). Plus, you CAN hook your off-air antenna to those and record, unlike the Moxi box!

I'm thinking about it. I am still in the last few days of my free month of DVR service, but since Charter's been uninterested in resolving this problem over the past month, I don't see that changing in the next couple of days. I wish I had some way of directly contacting someone instead of having to go through all these layers of people who can't do anything about it.

Adam, have you been called by Charter and surveyed about the Moxi unit? I was called about a week and a half ago, told the person of some issues, including the transposed channels, and she said she would look into it. 2 days later the problem was fixed. I failed to get her name, but the caller id number was 271-8526 (Charter Communications). Appears to be a generic Charter number but it may be worth a shot.

I also had a request to activate the serial port on a dct-2ooo for a TiVo about a year ago, and dealt directly with Lynn Gallman. She had an engineer call me and it was turned on within a couple of days. Within a week of that, the ports were activated for all upstate dct-2000's. She was VERY helpful.

googled: could find no direct # or e-mail address
Lynn Gallman
Support Services/Retention
Charter Communications

PS: If you speak to her directly, ask her to re-enable the 30-second skip they just took away. Thanks.

Since late last week, I have been unable to pick up 13-1 and 13-2 and 40-1 stations. Normally, I get good signals for all. I have tried to rescan, but now my TV does not even recognize that there is stations there. Has anyone else had any problems? I live in Fountain Inn.

You probably need to readjust your antenna. I had to inorder to pull in all of my stations at once. Its that time of the year when seasons change, so channel propagation does as well. After adjusting, WLOS comes in just fine. My hardest station to get reliably is WYFF. I'll have a strong signal and then it starts skipping...I hate that! The signal quality for me is pretty rough unless I have my antenna orientated correctly. Anyone else notice that, or is it just me? May be mulitpath, I'm not sure.

So the seasonal change DOES have that big an effect on the signal and where it is coming from? I need a rotator!

Originally posted by AppState
PS: If you speak to her directly, ask her to re-enable the 30-second skip they just took away. Thanks. Y'know, I wonder if some of these things are 'pushed' to the box, and if Charter deprovisioning the modem in my Moxi for a week is keeping me from seeing what everyone else is seeing. I haven't gotten a software update in close to a month and still have the 30 second skip on my box, and I seem to be the only one. Maybe my box is supposed to be getting the software update that makes the switch to the 15 minute skip as well as an updated channel map with HDNet/HDNet Movies listed correctly, but for whatever reason, I'm not getting them.

OK I'm about to spring for my first HDTV, but before I do I have a few questions about Charter. I'm going to give them a try first as DirecTV isn't a viable option for me right now, until they get ALL the locals in our area.
As I understand it ESPN-HD & HDNet which is what I'm interested in are on Charter's HD package, so I'm happy.

I know they also have WYFF-DT on their HD package, but I've seen posts here about people getting WSPA-DT on 102.3 with Charter. What's the deal with this?

The TV I'm getting has a built in QAM tuner so should I be able to pick up WSPA-DT directly through the cable line or would you still need an antenna? I tried various antenna setups last year but never could get a usable OTA signal with a STB, which is what made me wait until now to move on to HD...

Any information would be appreciated... I understand Charter's package, I just don't understand how you get the WSPA when they're supposedly not offering it.

Originally posted by cpalmer2k
The TV I'm getting has a built in QAM tuner so should I be able to pick up WSPA-DT directly through the cable line or would you still need an antenna?
At least the last time I tried, I could still pick up WSPA via my QAM tuner at 102.3. If Charter keeps doing this, you would not need an antenna, although if you are renting their HD box, you'd either need a splitter or you'd need to plug/unplug the coax everytime you wanted to watch it.

Here's my theory on that one... perhaps the cable system is just acting as an "antenna" and its' strong enough to pick it up? I know it might not make total sense but when cable is out I find I can still pick up WSPA's SD feed on Channel 7 without any antenna. Surely they're not feeding it without authorization... but maybe we can just pick it up because of how all the technology interacts, the signal strength, etc.


Also to my second question... I basically leave my TV on all the time, 24/7. The television I'm looking at is a tube television, not one of the LCD/Projection, Plasma etc so would it be OK to leave it on all the time like I do the tv I'm using now or would that seriously reduce the life of the set more than a standard one?

The set I'm looking at is http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?j=1&id=1077626340538&skuId=6407836&type=product

Originally posted by cpalmer2k
OK I'm about to spring for my first HDTV, but before I do I have a few questions about Charter. I'm going to give them a try first as DirecTV isn't a viable option for me right now, until they get ALL the locals in our area.


What area are you in? Since you're posting in the Upstate SC, Western NC forum I kind of assume you're in this area, and if so DirecTV does provide all of the local stations. But if you're going HD then it shouldn't matter since the best way to get locals is OTA, and you can get a lot of help here on what kind of setup you'll need along with your DirecTV HD receiver to pull in all the locals in HD.

Originally posted by gjlowe
So the seasonal change DOES have that big an effect on the signal and where it is coming from? I need a rotator!

So far I haven't had to make any adjustments. WLOS is coming in at 88, and WYFF and WHNS are at 92. These would be the only three I'd have trouble with.

I have asked several RF engineers to comment on seasonal changes in propagation, especially in UHF, and will pass the info on when received. But, yes in the past three years, I have experienced a change over two to three weeks from spring to summer and fall to winter. This was never brought to my attention when managing various SD TV stations. The only problem was in much higher frequencies used for STL. This year has been the slowest to settle down.

Do you mean that after the "seasonal transition" that my stations should start appearing again, or am I SOL until next spring? :)

I just got off the phone with WHNS. They are waiting for some "new replacement equipment" to fix the sound problem. The guy was very nice. I believe his first name was Jerry. He is hoping to get the equipment by this Friday. He welcomes email and calls to the station. To quote him " we don't know if there is a problem, or if there is something we can do to make it better, with out feedback". This holds true for all the stations. By the way the phone number I called was (864)288-2100. Just tell them you have some questions about their WHNS-DT broadcast. I also told him that my signal is near 100% and as of right now I get nothing. Not even a picture. I was the first to complain about that according to him. So if anyone else is having problems let them know about it.:)

I called them yesterday, as they had no audio, but a good video. It was ok later on after they shut off PSIP and it mapped at 57-3 instead of remapping to 21-1

gjlowe
In order to maximize the signal from all stations for year 'round use, I need to re-orient my antenna some 3 to 5 degrees for major seasonal changes...that is twice a year.

Thanks Jerry. I will have to try that. Meanwhile, I am also thinking of replacing my winegard preamp with the CM everyone has been talking about here.

On a side note...does anyone know how the ATSC tuner in the DISH 921 receiver compares with the one in the 811?

What antenna are you using?

As I have mentioned in the past, I have a Terk TV-38. I know people frown upon Terk, but this model, I was told, is actually a Winegard that is repackaged by Terk. It is a long range VHF/UHF/FM antenna. I was thinking that I could probably switch to a UHF only model, since that is all that HDTV is broadcast in, but I do like the ability to receive VHF channels over the air for rooms without satellite in my house.

Let me have the Model number of the Terk and I will try to look it up. You may be very surprised by switching to a 4 or 8 bay CM. Some have found it is the difference in no Digital signals, and all local signals! And, I am especially concerned about the amp associated with your setup. I hope others will jump in help solve your problem.

But, not knowing your actual location, I suspect you have line-of-site to some transmitters, and an obstruction between you and others. That can be a special problem...with some very strone signals and others marginal.

The preamp is a Winegard AP-8275. The antenna model number is a Terk TV38. I am in Candler, NC, right by the BASF plant. I have a one story house, the antenna is mounted on the chimney with a 5 foot expansion post in addition to the 4 footer that comes with the antenna. I get WLOS at about 92%, WUNC also at about 92%, and that's all. Before I was getting WYFF at about 65% but with NO signal dropout at all. WHNS had just started coming in, but I would get intermittant dropouts. The signal for WHNS was clearly better at night than during the day. I do not receive WSPA at all.

Re Seasonal changes:
Here is a note from FOXENG"

<quote>
It is due to atmospheric and plan old leaves falling off the trees. With the current crop of DTV receivers so sensitive to multipath, leaves on the trees change the multipath component. In the summer you have more leaves, more multipath. Winter, less leaves, less multipath. The same thing happens in analog, but you it doesn't jump out at you since it takes quite a bit of ghosting before it becomes annoying. In the digital world you only have about 6 db S/N of headroom from the threshold of signal lock and maximum practical usability so it doesn't take much mutlitpath to drop below the -27db threshold of signal lock. It is really amazing you can receive a signal at all! In the future, when the 5th generation receivers come out, it will not be as bad. Even here in the flat lands of the Piedmont, I have to change about 3 degrees to pick up the weaker DTV stations from winter to summer.

Cost of being an early adapter!
<end quote>

gjlowe:
Winegard makes good antennas, and it appears that the Terk is either Winegard-made or a good copy. It is especially good for VHF and that may be part of the problem. However, I would not chose an all-band antenna for the current UHF Digital transmissions. Remember that all local FM, and tons of public service frequencies are being picked up by the wide-band antenna and the amplifier also increases multipath and co-channel along with the desirable signals. You can purchase a 4-bay CM for as little as $30 plus nominal shipping. Its wind loading is minimal and could go on top of your mast...but the maximum possible separation between the two if you go that route. Do use a second lead, and not a combiner to couple the two antennas. If possible, try to borrow a CM for experimentation. (At one time UNCTV (PBS) had loaners that were available for testing. I will ask if that is still in effect the next time I am on the phone to them.) I also suspect your reception will stabilize soon.)

Thank you very much Jerry. That is excellent information. Thanks to Foxeng as well. So bottom line is if I can do without the FM radio and VHF stations, I could simply replace my TV38 with a 4 bay UHF antenna and keep the amp I have now to receive the best possible signal? Maybe a rotator isn't out of the question either so I don't have to keep climbing on my roof!

One thing a 4 bay will do is provide a wider reception angle compaired to the yagi-type antenna you are currently using. This may allow you to receive stations from a wider area without a rotor and amp. A drawback in using your current preamp is that it is a combo VHF/FM/UHF amp and includes a ton of PS frequencies. I would try the CM without the amp first. Yes, if you do not wish to receive other media from a rooftop antenna, you can eliminate the large Winegard...your call. However, definitely consider a rotor for the CM for maximum reception of the problem channels.

I agree with Jerry. If you don't need that extra antenna, get a 4-bay antenna. You'll potentially eliminate multi-path problems among other things. I have one and can't recommend it enough. I haven't tried any preamps, so I can't say anything about that. I would like to add that a rotor (or rotator, same thing) is a major plus. Dependant on your location, bad weather and seasonal changes has effects on signals and you may have to "tune in" some stations during these conditions. I know, its another cable to run and all, but it is worth it. I think Radio Shack has them for like 74.99 (what I have), but you might can find one used cheaper (ex. IWANNA).

Not that anyone's interested in hearing yet another post from me on this topic, but after pestering everyone I could think of and then some for the past month, I finally have HDNet and HDNet Movies listed correctly on my Moxi program guide. :D

As I mentioned before I'm about to spring for an HDTV setup and I'm going to go with Charter for now since at this point HD PVR's, etc aren't that important to me. Later on when DirecTV gets their HD locals up and running I might consider a switch... but not right now.

For those who use it, what's the picture quality like on HDNet & ESPN-HD on Charter?

cpalmer2k
HDNet is top notch PQ; ESPN-HD varies in that some is SD up-converted; some is good quality HD origination. Wide range.

Yesterday, WSPA broadcast the Pittsburgh-Cleveland gane in 4X3 SD even though it was available in HD from CBS.

Jeff Edwards

Charter's PQ for NBCHD, espnHD, and HDNet are very good, i cant complain but here is my main problem. I bought a 42WE655 3 weeks ago, when i first bought it i had the regular Charter cablebox and the PQ was VERY good i would say better then my 9 yr old sony, very crisp and clear but when i changed to their HD box my PQ has dropped off bigtime. The picture looks "grainy" with letters like the football ticker i have trouble reading the words. Mrs Eccleston is getting alittle upset that we paid good money for a worse picture. HD and DVDs look awesome but regular Digital TV isnt very good. I cant decide if Charter's box sucks or i mess up the main cable wire while i was trying to get my antenna wire thru the wall. I want to get D* hoping the PQ will improve but with X-mas coming i was hoping to hold off till Jan due to the $$$ i will have to spend since i'm not a customer already. I know the problems arent the TV but Charter. Everyone agrees with me after getting the HDbox the PQ is alot worse. I might try hooking up my other regular box or run cable from upstairs to test.

Jon

If you are looking for a decent price on a rotor - look at Warren Electronic Distribution Co. They have a Channel Master rotor with IR remote control for less than most stores sell their regular rotors.


Check out the link for more information.
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/ant_rotors.htm

I recently purchased a rotor from them and had no complaints. Good prices and good service.

Originally posted by jeccleston
Charter's PQ for NBCHD, espnHD, and HDNet are very good, i cant complain but here is my main problem. I bought a 42WE655 3 weeks ago, when i first bought it i had the regular Charter cablebox and the PQ was VERY good i would say better then my 9 yr old sony, very crisp and clear but when i changed to their HD box my PQ has dropped off bigtime. The picture looks "grainy" with letters like the football ticker i have trouble reading the words. Mrs Eccleston is getting alittle upset that we paid good money for a worse picture. HD and DVDs look awesome but regular Digital TV isnt very good. I cant decide if Charter's box sucks or i mess up the main cable wire while i was trying to get my antenna wire thru the wall. I want to get D* hoping the PQ will improve but with X-mas coming i was hoping to hold off till Jan due to the $$$ i will have to spend since i'm not a customer already. I know the problems arent the TV but Charter. Everyone agrees with me after getting the HDbox the PQ is alot worse. I might try hooking up my other regular box or run cable from upstairs to test.

Jon
I wouldn't rush out to get DirecTV if you are concerned with picture quality on local stations. I think they have gotten worse over the last 6 months. There is Ringing on the edges, some visible group delay, poor definition overall, and lots of compression artifacts.

Fortunately, most of what I watch is in HD, and I get almost all the stations off-air, so I am not forced to watch the crummy locals via satellite.

While it's true that locals on DirecTv don't look that great, the other non-HD channels do look much better than on Charter. Since you should be able to get all your locals over the air through a good HD antenna setup this should be a non-issue.

As I've shared in other posts I was able to compare the pq from Charter and DirecTV on non-HD channels by comparing them on almost the exact same setup at Jeff Lynch TV, and the difference was noticeable.

Hmm where is jeff Lynch in town? I really want to see the difference between channels. My son watches 111 boomerang and it is pretty blocky but those are some old cartoons. I'm not really worried about locals because i have CM4228 setup in my attic but do not have the wires ran yet because of the darn fire block. I'm going to redo the screw-on part of the charter cable to see if that is my problem and maybe take the box back to see if the box is messed up. I think i will head to Jeff Lynch to see the difference, my father in law has D* and his freind has Dish but i would like to see them on my tv model.

Jon

Jeff Lynch is near the intersection of N. Pleasantburg and Pelham, before you get to Bob Jones and next to that Bi-Lo and Jack in the Box.

The way I was able to do the comparison is that they had 2 Sony LCD GWIII's near each other with one being a different size, but one had DirecTV, and the other was on Charter. I then put them on the same channel (ESPN, and some others) and did a direct comparison. I was amazed at the difference.

They're pretty good at accomodating requests so if they can set something up for you to look at they will.

Let me start off by saying I work for Charter... There, it is out in the open. But before I started with Charter, I had Direct TV.. I still do, because of my TiVO.

I will say, since I got the Charter HD box hooked up to my 56" Samsung, along with the Direct TV, my HD looks great through cable, hooked up to my TV with the DVI Cable. My digital cable stations also look very good, in my opinion, as good as he look on DirectTV ! Basic channels look worse than DTV, but by only a little. Now to local stations, this can be a little hit and miss with both systems, but I'll give the edge to cable. For local HD, I use a set top antenna from Radio shack.

Personally, I can't stand the SD channels on D*. There's so much compression that the picture loses color and makes everything look out of focus. I do my personal comparison watching the local channels on D* vs SD upconverts on the local digital stations. WOW! If I were D*, I would be embarrassed. It's amazing just how much picture you lose. And I know the locals are more compressed than the other stuff, but try watching ESPN and then turning it to the ESPNHD on the upconvert...there's a difference. Even channels with low-motion like CNN look really bad. I've even considered going to cable, but it seems they aren't any better. Analog cable might have snow in it, but at least it is sharp. D* looked a lot better when was first launched, but it has really gotten bad in the last couple of years. With all of the new locals being added, HD content, and more and more channels being added, it has gotten pathetic. I just watch the HD stuff more and more to avoid getting nauseous...

Originally posted by walterc
The way I was able to do the comparison is that they had 2 Sony LCD GWIII's near each other with one being a different size, but one had DirecTV, and the other was on Charter. I then put them on the same channel (ESPN, and some others) and did a direct comparison. I was amazed at the difference.

They're pretty good at accomodating requests so if they can set something up for you to look at they will.

Well it takes guts to admit your work for the darkside. :D What you suggest i try before i change to D*, why would my PQ drop off changing from a regular box to a HD box. I was going to redo my coax cable connection from the cable outside to the outlet in my living room. But no one i know has one of those little wire strippers and i'm not going to spend $15-20 for a wire stripper. I think i might have messed up the end of the main wire.

Jon

In your situation, I would guess it would be the quality of the box. Did you have a really nice cable box before? I have an SD TiVo, and I can notice a nice jump in quality when I watch SD channels on my HD receiver. My guess would be to check your settings on the HD box. Have tried DVI vs. Component? Are you displaying the SD channels at 1080i or 480i/p? I can notice a difference when I play with the settings on my HTL-HD. Especially with us being the "pioneers" of the HD and digital wave, many problems aren't easy to fix, and there's no sure fire answer. However, in the end, you end up feeling really dumb when its just a small setting that needed to be changed.

Now the box that charter gave me is a DT5100 and from what i have read the DVI does not work on them so i can not use anything but component. I tried jsut running a coxail line right to the tv and the picture wasnt any better. As for 1080 vs 480 i believe it is 480 but i have no idea how to check it. I have messed around with the HD box and can not find any way to see for sure what it is in.

Jon

I have found on my HTL-HD that there is a jump in PQ going from component to DVI. However, that "jump" isn't a HUGE difference, but it does make a difference. You seem to say that you have a pretty good size jump. That's really sorry of Charter to turn off that stuff. DVI is a major connection for HT users, unlike what they think. I wish we had an alternative in our market. Maybe that's why we have so many D* and E* viewers in our market :). I'm out of answers, anyone else have anything?

Re: DirecTV-Tivo model HR10-250
I am unable to get much information on this unit and am looking for information before purchase. Does it provide simultaneous component and composit video feeds to two sources, such as standard VCR and the Monitor? Is the over the air receiver good in fair signal areas? Any other comments regarding the unit...or is there a better recorder for HD?

I am now getting Discovery HD on Charter channel 775!!!

Me Too!!! Hooray!!!! Now if only we could have ABC, CBS, FOX, TNT, Bravo, etc.........oooh and a PPV would be nice!!! But...Its a start!

Have you looked in the AVS forum's HD recording area? There's an entire topic on the unit. I don't have one, but have heard mixed signals on them.

I have three more questions for the group:

1) Does a UHF 4 or 8 bay antenna have a wider range than a standard Yagi-style antenna like I currently have?

2) Is there a distinct advantage to going with an 8 bay instead of a 4 bay antenna?

3) To Jerry, foxeng, or anyone else that has the seasonal change problem: Which way did you need to move your antenna to receive the signals when they disappeared, and from what location (so I can figure which way I need to rotate mine)?

Thanks!

gjlowe

The beamwidth depending on the yagi is as narrow or maybe narrower with the 4 bay and 8 bay. Average about 20 degree.

The only difference with the 8 bay is a few more DB gain and more surface area for the signal to hit. Digital is touchy so the more area for the signal less likely problems with height of antenna and drop outs. With UHF I have seen a difference of a 2 feet in height or even inches to left or right make the difference in receiving excellent signal to nothing.

Originally posted by jerry birdwell
Re: DirecTV-Tivo model HR10-250
I am unable to get much information on this unit and am looking for information before purchase. Does it provide simultaneous component and composit video feeds to two sources, such as standard VCR and the Monitor? Is the over the air receiver good in fair signal areas? Any other comments regarding the unit...or is there a better recorder for HD?

You can do simultaneous outs to both component and composite sources, but you will have to set your output on the 250 to 480i. I get all of my OTA signals just fine through the HR 10-250, but I think I'm in a good position in Taylors so I don't know what it would be like for Asheville. It sounds like you've got a better overall OTA setup than me so I would think you'd be fine.

Originally posted by gjlowe
I have three more questions for the group:

3) To Jerry, foxeng, or anyone else that has the seasonal change problem: Which way did you need to move your antenna to receive the signals when they disappeared, and from what location (so I can figure which way I need to rotate mine)?

Here in the Piedmont, I had to move to the west, but it will depend on your particular situation. I can't stress the importance of a rotor on a OTA outside digital antenna.