If you have a lot of money there is a way to get rid of black bars in 2006. ;)

CinemaScope Offers Widescreen Without Bars (http://www.electronichouse.com/article/cinemascope_widescreen_without_bars/) ... sort of.Note: The TV and DVD settings referred to in this post are from 2003-2004. The general idea is the same for all equipement.

For different takes on black bars you can use several links later in this post and in the rest of this thread.

Explained again, here! (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9000821&&#post9000821)
Almost everything in this post came to me from others here at AVS forums. Any confusion, or errors of fact are entirely my own creation.

I will do my best to improve what's presented here. Feel free to clarify and correct. There are links to other resources for better understanding of aspect ratio, and it's effect on movies, movies on TV and TV at the bottom of this post.

Enjoy. :)

A Casual History of Black Bars

When movies started being projected on screens across the country the aspect ratio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspect_ratio_(image)) was 4 units wide for each 3 units height.

Decades later the TV industry used the same aspect ratio.

People were so hypnotized by TV in the 1950's that they forget to go to the movies. Hollywood's response was wide screen spectacular epic movies.

Thanks to weebling1 for further details:
"The movie industry developed "CINEMASCOPE" and "PANAVISION" and other widescreen filming techniques in the 1950's to recapture audiences being lost to TV."

Theaters installed wide screens with masking to reshape the screen when they were showing the standard 4x3 movies. By using masking the fixed size wide screens became adjustable. Unfortunately TV sets are fixed size and will probably stay that way.

Did Hollywood pick one wide screen aspect ratio and stick with it? Of course not. So now, our fixed aspect ratio television sets have to adapt to many aspect ratios. If the original aspect ratio of the film is maintained then black bars are best way to do it.

I'm not sure exactly when "Letterbox" started but it was big when Laser Disks became available. The transfer to Laser Disk, for wide screen movies, was done in 4x3 frames but only a portion of each frame was used. The black bars were included right there in the 4x3 frame. In that way they could create a "wide" image of any aspect ratio. It was an unfortunate trade-off because they were using only a portion of each 4x3 frame. Image information was lost.

As wide screen and HD TVs became a possibility, Letterbox just wasn't good enough. It's hard to find more recent wide screen movies that haven't been "Enhanced for widescreen TVs" -- sometimes referred to as "Anamorphic Widescreen (http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/anamorphic/index.html)" -- link. You will find statements like these on DVD boxes. Short of HD DVD this type of DVD can look pretty good.

Some older movies that have received extensive restoration have also been enhanced for wide screen TV. The older wide screen movies that have not been "enhanced" may be described on the DVD box as "Widescreen version: Presented in a 'letterbox' Widescreen format preserving the aspect ratio of it's original theatrical exhibition."

The Letterbox movies that I have seen tend to have poor PQ because of the methods used and the fact that Hollywood made no effort to preserve their master copies. In many cases it was necessary to search for copies of a film in private collections and then patch together the best pieces.

The last type of DVD that I'm familiar with is the original 4x3 movie. Their DVD boxes will have statements like "1.37:1 Academy Ratio" and "Standard Version: Presented in a format preserving the aspect ratio of the original theatrical exhibition." The number 1.33 is just 4 divided by 3 and is expressing the aspect ratio of a film as 1.33:1 or 1.33 units wide for each 1 unit high. Silent movies were shot at 1.33:1 but when sound was introduce part to the frame had to be used for the sound track which resulted in a 1.37:1 aspect ratio. Kelpie brough this to my attention today (03/02/2007).

See Wikipedia for more historical information. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_ratio)

Some movies have been "treated" to fill a 4x3 screen and are labeled as "Full Screen", "Pan and Scan" or something similar. I avoid them.

Don't forget to setup your DVD player for a 16x9 screen:

DVD players seem to be shipped configured to be connected to a display with a 4x3 screen. It is necessary to configure the DVD player to be connected to a 16x9 display. This setup option may be a switch on the back of the DVD player or one or two options in the player's setup menus.Sample Setup for a Samsung HLP TV and a Component connection to a DVD player.

With a properly configured DVD player connected to a Samsung HLP (2004) set through component you should have these choices if you use the P. Size (Picture Size) button on the Samsung remote.

NOTE: Each year the names of these options, and the results they produce can change. Check your model's picture size options with other owners.
Wide: for Anamorphic Enhanced Widescreen movies. There will be black bars top and bottom for all films with an aspect ratio greater than 1.85:1.

Panorama: for those who want to force a 4x3 image to fill a 16x9 screen. The image will be stretched more toward the sides than in the middle. Objects on the sides of the image will be fatter than they would be if they were in the center of the image.

Zoom 1: for older Letterbox wide screen films. The image is "magnified" and equal amount in all four directions until it reaches the left and right sides of the screen. There will be black bars on the top and bottom of the screen because if the "letterboxed" films were created wider than the 16x9 screens.

Zoom 2: it does the same thing as Zoom 1 only it doesn't stop until the entire screen is used to display the image. The ends of an image will be cut off using Zoom2.

4x3: for old films made before wide screen took over. There will be black bars on each side so that the image has a ratio of 4 units wide for each unit high.

Sample Setup for a Samsung HLP TV and a HDMI or DVI connection to a DVD player.

Set the up-scaling DVD player to output either 480p or 720p and pick your own favorite setting.

Wide (TV): use for all Anamorphic Enhanced Widescreen movies. There will be black bars top and bottom for all films with an aspect ratio greater than 1.85:1. There will be some extra overscan.

Wide (PC): don't use this option for anything except personal computer desk top work. There will be enough under scan to make a windows desk top visible.

Expand: provides 1x1 bit mapping and none of the extra "electronic" overscan used in "Wide (TV)". Movies wider than 1.85:1 have black bars top and bottom. SD TV or movies with a 4x3 aspect ratio have black bars on each side of the image.

4x3: it's the same as above for old 4x3 films with black side bars.

If you don't know the aspect ratio or transfer type of the film you want to watch check it out at the Internet Movie Database (http://www.imdb.com/) or at Netflix (http://www.netflix.com) .

Examples of Film Aspect Ratos:

Thanks to Mark Alexander:
"Just be aware that the IMDB is often inaccurate when it comes to the original theatrical AR."

Some films have been issued on DVD more that once. Some have been issued in Letterbox and then again in Widescreen Anamorphic. When ever I have a choice I get the Widescreen Anamorphic version.

An aspect ratio of 1:78:1 is exactly the size of 16x9 wide screen TV sets (16 / 9 = 1.77. There should be no black bars.

An aspect ratio of 1:85:1 is slightly wider than 16x9 wide screen TV sets. There may be very thin black bars top and bottom. The over scan in some TV sets will make these black bars impossible to see.

An aspect ratio greater than 1:85 will have black bars top and bottom. As the films aspect ratio gets larger (wider) the black bars top and bottom also get larger.

An aspect ratio less that 1.78, which in almost all cases will be 1.37:1 (~4x3), will have wide black bars on each side of the image.

Letterboxed Examples:

Ben-Hur (1959); (Provided by Trent)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0052618/dvd
2.76:1 Anamorphic Widescreen
Released 13 March 2001
Results: Top/Bottom largest black bars.

2001: A Space Odyssey (1968)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0062622/dvd
2.20:1 Letterbox
Released 25 August 1998
Box Notes: Widescreen version: Presented in a "letterbox" widescreen format preserving the "scope" aspect ratio of it's original theatrical exhibition.
Results: Top/Bottom black bars.

King and I, The (1956)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049408/dvd
2.55:1 Letterbox
Released 27 April 1999
Box Notes: Widescreen version: Presented in a "letterbox" widescreen format preserving the aspect ratio of the original theatrical exhibition.
Results: Top/Bottom black bars.

Anamorphic Widescreen Examples:

North by Northwest (1959)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053125/dvd
1.78 :1 Anamorphic Widescreen
Released 29 August 2000
Box Notes: Widescreen version: Presented in a "matted" widescreen format preserving the aspect ratio of the original theatrical exhibition. Enhanced for widescreen TVs.
Results: No black bars.

Birds, The (1963)
Collector's Edition
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056869/dvd
1.85:1 Anamorphic Widescreen
Released 28 March 2000
Box Notes: No aspect ratio comments on the box, but 1.85:1 Anamorphic Widescreen listed.
Results: Thin black bars but overscan should hide them.

Music Man, The (1962)
Special Edition
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056262/dvd
2.20:1 Anamorphic Widescreen
Released 23 February 1999
Box Notes: Widescreen version: Presented in a "letterbox" widescreen format preserving the aspect ratio of the original theatrical exhibition. Enhanced for widescreen TVs.
Results: Top/Bottom black bars.

Academy Ratio (Standard Version) Examples:

American in Paris, An
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0043278/dvd
1.37:1 Academy Ratio
Released 2 May 2000
Box Notes: Standard Version: Presented in a format preserving the aspect ratio of the original theatrical exhibition.
Results: Wide black bars right and left sides.

Links To Other Black Bar Information:

Confused about 2.35:1? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=812800&page=1&pp=30)

Why Don't the Black Bars Go Away? (http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/764)

Widescreen TVs do NOT get rid of black bars totally. (http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=332900)

All About Aspect Ratios (http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/anamorphic/aspectratios/widescreenorama.html)

The Ultimate Guide to Anamorphic Widescreen DVD (http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/anamorphic/index.html)

More links to inforation about aspect ratio and movies. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=824240)

Understanding aspect ratios for video exhibtion... (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14497797#post14497797)

Are there any strange aspect ratios out there that you have run into? The Internet Movie Database (http://www.imdb.com/) is a good place to get that kind of information for any film that may interest you.

Do a search for the movie you are interested in and then under "Other Info" click on "DVD details".

Les,

Impressive. I hope people read it, especially newbees.

Originally posted by manpig
Les,

Impressive. I hope people read it, especially newbees.
Thanks.

Originally posted by htwaits
.. the 931 somehow fools the HLN into thinking any DVI signal is HD.

Have you confirmed this? I think the actual issue may be with the HLN, not the 931. It seems that if the HLN receives a 1080i/720p signal, it automatically assumes widescreen and doesn't allow normal. A 480p signal, however, can be viewed in normal mode on the HLN.

I was just experimenting with this using my STB over dvi. The downside (maybe benefit for SD) of sending a 480p signal via dvi is that the picture is letterboxed on four sides.

I'll experiment with the 931. Any specific title you think I should use? Maybe I will try my non-anamorphic "nightmare before christmas" since that is an unusual aspect ratio (1.66).

I tried the full-screen version of Babe. Sending a 480p signal over dvi does allow normal mode to work but no zooms. The very odd thing ( I mentioned this to you in another thread) is that the aspect ratio is off. The picture is displayed in approxiamtely a 1.5 AR. I measured the picture at 30.75"x20.75". I tried switching the display option in the menu of the 931 but that seemd to have no effect.

Originally posted by NikePenguin
Have you confirmed this? I think the actual issue may be with the HLN, not the 931. It seems that if the HLN receives a 1080i/720p signal, it automatically assumes widescreen and doesn't allow normal.

Owners of the Bravo D1 DVD player say that it doesn't have this problem when connected to the Samsung HLN sets with DVI.

A 480p signal, however, can be viewed in normal mode on the HLN.

I have tested that myself now (12/05/2003).

480p in "Normal" aspect mode via DVI is strange and not normal at all. The alternate path for 4x3 and Letterbox that give me good results is component 1 with Normal (4x3) and Zoom (Widescreen Letterbox).

Edited: 12./05/2003


I was just experimenting with this using my STB over dvi. The downside (maybe benefit for SD) of sending a 480p signal via dvi is that the picture is letterboxed on four sides.

I'm going to stick to DVD for now. That's confusing enough for me. :D

I think you should only see "Letterbox" if the material is wider than 1.33:1, but I've never seen "Letterbox" in person with aspect ratios less than 1.78:1.

Come to think of it, in January when I had the Samsung 160 STB using OTA input and DVI set to output 720p, I watched HD programs in wide mode and SD programs in Normal mode. That leads me to think the the problem is the HD_931's behavior.

I'll experiment with the 931. Any specific title you think I should use? Maybe I will try my non-anamorphic "nightmare before christmas" since that is an unusual aspect ratio (1.66).

You need Zoom1 to display any "Letterbox" material in it's correct aspect ratio. I know Component 1 will allow you to do that. I don't think (not tested) DVI at 480p will let you use Zoom1.

If you do try "Nightmare" on Component 1 with Zoom1, I would like to know if the black bars are on the sides instead of the top and bottom. If Zoom1 works the way "I" would like it too then that's where the bars should be. Otherwise it seems to me that Zoom1 would be stretching the 1.66:1 "Lettterbox" image's width.


Good luck testing. I don't want to wear out my welcome or I would go back again for more tests. :D

Previously I had tried "Nightmare..." on component1 using zoom1. The image filled the entire screen with the top of the picture being cut off. I do not know if any picture was cut on the sides. My impression of zoom1 is that it zooms enough for a 1.77 non-anamorphic picture to fill the screen.

Originally posted by NikePenguin
Previously I had tried "Nightmare..." on component1 using zoom1. The image filled the entire screen with the top of the picture being cut off.


I was afraid of that. Zoom1 probably doesn't work correctly once the aspect ratio gets below 1.78:1.

I do not know if any picture was cut on the sides. My impression of zoom1 is that it zooms enough for a 1.77 non-anamorphic picture to fill the screen.

Right, and then you start seeing back bars as the aspect ratio gets wider. Well, most "Letterbox" DVD's have pretty bad PQ to begin with so I'm off to buy the Anamorphic "Nightmare Before Christmas".

Aspect ratios aside, when is the proper time to watch "Nightmare Before Christmas"? Since Halloween seems too early and Xmas too late, I watch it at Thanksgiving.

If you are "personally" cooking a turkey then Thanksgiving Eve is the perfect time.

I think any time of year is great for Nightmare but it is especially good between Halloween and Christmas.

Thanks for the nice primer.

If I recall correctly, TV's 4:3 aspect ratio originated when Thomas Edison's assistants asked him what proportions his new inventions screen should have. He thought about it for a minute, and came up with 4:3

Best,

Dr. D

I'd like to add to the history side:

The movie industry developed "CINEMASCOPE" and "PANAVISION" and other widescreen filming techniques in the 1950's to recapture audiences being lost to TV.

(sorry to drop names on you guys)

DrDeville, thanks I needed that! :)

Thanks weebling1. How about Michael Todd's "Around The World In 80 Days"? Wasn't that done in something called Todd-AO?

Originally posted by htwaits
Are there any strange aspect ratios out there that you have run into? The Internet Movie Database (http://www.imdb.com/) is a good place to get that kind of information for any film that may interest you.

Do a search for the movie you are interested in and then under "Other Info" click on "DVD details". You have just been subjected to an informative "bump". ;) Just be aware that the IMDB is often innacurate when it comes to the original theatrical AR.

Originally posted by Marc Alexander
Just be aware that the IMDB is often innacurate when it comes to the original theatrical AR.
Thanks Marc. I should have pointed that out too. My wife has actually sent in a couple of corrections relating to other types of information. :rolleyes:

I've just been trying to find any other sources for detailed information about films. So far I haven't had much luck.

Anyone know of a detail oriented film history site?

Originally posted by htwaits
People were so hypnotized by TV that they started forgetting to go to the movies. Hollywood's response was wide screen spectacular epic movies. Theaters installed wide screens with masking to reshape the screen when they were showing the standard 4x3 movies. By using masking the fixed size wide screens became adjustable. Unfortunately TV sets are fixed size and will probably stay that way for a long time.


I always thought that during those years, the theaters were trying to get screens as large as possible. Their screen size increased as optics improved, until theaters hit the practical limit of the screen reaching from ceiling to floor. Once they hit that hard barrier, the only thing left, was to go wider. And wider they went.

For TV's, even the largest RPTV's, ceiling height isn't a limitation in most homes. At least not yet.

Masking at theaters really just involves moving the curtains back and forth. So, just about any width was easily achievable. No standard was needed by anyone.

However, just how "widescreen" the movie got, was a trade off in clarity since, I believe, all still used 4:3 film stock. They just used different techniques of "squeezing" the picture down.

My prediction, which could very well turn out to be wrong, is that with HDTV "blessing" the 16:9 ratio, and home video becoming the major market (read "$$$") for movies, new productions will attempt to target 16:9 framing. Except, of course, for those few maverick directors who always refuse to conform. :)

Originally posted by WaltA
I always thought that during those years, the theaters were trying to get screens as large as possible. Their screen size increased as optics improved, until theaters hit the practical limit of the screen reaching from ceiling to floor. Once they hit that hard barrier, the only thing left, was to go wider. And wider they went.

Those years (when TV became the big new thing) were the fifties. The very big movie houses were built in the thirties. I think that any increase in 4x3 screen size would have gone along with the big theater boom of the thirties.

This is where a good history of the movies would come in handy. :)

I don't think in 65 years (allowing five years for minimum growth :rolleyes: ) that I've ever seen a 4x3 screen that stretched floor to ceiling.

The purposes of this thread is to help in getting as close as possible to the original aspect ratio of theatrical presentation of any film or other material on DVD. Of course, the best we can do is display the DVD aspect ratio image without unnecessary distortion.

I wouldn't expect the "blockbuster" films to ever come back to a "narrow" 16x9 ratio.

Originally posted by DrDeville
Thanks for the nice primer.

If I recall correctly, TV's 4:3 aspect ratio originated when Thomas Edison's assistants asked him what proportions his new inventions screen should have. He thought about it for a minute, and came up with 4:3

Best,

Dr. D

Some of us are old enough to remember watching Howdy Doody on our brand new 7" round TV. I think 4:3 TV standard came from the fact that round picture tubes couldn't do much better. Plus that was the ratio of the movies too. I also remember our first color TV which also had a round tube masked to a 4:3 rectangle but the corners of the screen were cut off.
Rock

So am I correct to assume that an aspect ratio of 1:78:1 will always produce a full image on a 16:9. DVD's enhanced for widescreen or Anamorphic Widescreen will also fill up a wide screen 16:9 set.

How about movies on HDTV cable, OTA, DBS. I watched Fifth Element on Shotime a few months ago and it was full screen on my 16:9, however, my superbit version has major sized black bars on top and bottom? What is lost on the broadcast versions? Do the broadcasters zoom the pic, trim off the sides and tops?

Drew

Originally posted by drew138
So am I correct to assume that an aspect ratio of 1:78:1 will always produce a full image on a 16:9.

Right.

16 divided by 9 equals 1.78 which is a perfect fit. Also, films with a 1.85:1 aspect ratio will have black bars so thin that they will be lost in your set's over-scan.


DVD's enhanced for widescreen or Anamorphic Widescreen will also fill up a wide screen 16:9 set.

Nope.

It's the aspect ratio that has to match the dimensions of your screen. Any film wider than 1.85:1 will have visible black bars top and bottom.

For instance "The Fifth Element" Superbit version has an aspect ratio of 2.35:1 and will have pretty big black bars. You can find the aspect ratio for a lot of DVDs on the back of the box.


How about movies on HDTV cable, OTA, DBS. I watched Fifth Element on Shotime a few months ago and it was full screen on my 16:9, however, my superbit version has major sized black bars on top and bottom? What is lost on the broadcast versions? Do the broadcasters zoom the pic, trim off the sides and tops?

I don't have cable but it sounds like they do zoom for a full TV screen so something gets the chop.


If you know a film was transfered as "Anamorphic" then the correct aspect mode for a Sony GWIII LCD RPTV is "Full". In the same situation a Samsung HLN RPTV should have it's aspect mode set to "Wide" or "Wide (TV) depending on the input you are using. "Letterbox" would be set to "Zoom" on either one, and an old "4x3 Academy Ratio" film would be set to "Normal" on a Samsung.

Originally posted by drew138
So am I correct to assume that an aspect ratio of 1:78:1 will always produce a full image on a 16:9. DVD's enhanced for widescreen or Anamorphic Widescreen will also fill up a wide screen 16:9 set.


Enhanced for widescreen and Anamorphic are generally the same thing. However, that has nothing to do with whether or not it fills a 16:9 screen, but rather how it's stored on the disc.

The aspect ratio is what determines whether or not it will fill the screen. 1.85:1 movies will fill the 16x9 screen, 2.35 will not.

Thanks. Makes perfect sense now. I think. ;)

Originally posted by drew138
Thanks. Makes perfect sense now. I think. ;)
Well, if you've got that worked out then maybe you could explain some of the bond market behavior that has me confused. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by jfischer
Enhanced for widescreen and Anamorphic are generally the same thing. However, that has nothing to do with whether or not it fills a 16:9 screen, but rather how it's stored on the disc.

The aspect ratio is what determines whether or not it will fill the screen. 1.85:1 movies will fill the 16x9 screen, 2.35 will not.




So.........why doesn't Julia Robert's "Pretty Women" fill the screen or even come close to it with very narrow bars? That DVD is in its "original theatrical aspect ratio 1:85" ??? I have the HD 931 Sammy DVI player and the Sammy HLN437W. The bars on the top and bottom are each around 5 inches! The picture goes from one side of the screen to the other and really looked stretched. A good example would be take a balloon with a printed picture and pull it out sideways. It looks very bad. Surely the HD931 will be returned if there is no "solution". I put "Pretty Woman" back into my 5 year old Toshiba non progressive with the new Monster Component cables and it looks.............great!

Originally posted by kmil
So.........why doesn't Julia Robert's "Pretty Women" fill the screen or even come close to it with very narrow bars? That DVD is in its "original theatrical aspect ratio 1:85" ???
"Pretty Woman" is not "Enhanced for Widescreen". It is Letterbox which requires a different setup. Check the first message for an explanation and example setup for Letterbox films.

For information about films check The Internet Movie Database (IMDb) (http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0100405/dvd) -- notice the Aspect Ratio box for "Pretty Woman".

NOTE: 12/07/2006

The link above now shows a newer Anamorphic, 1.85:1 version (Pretty Woman (15th Anniversary Special Edition) (15th Anniversary)).If you scroll down you will see that the only Anamophic Widescreen releases of "Pretty Woman" are PAL which is the standard for Europe. The only way you have to view the Letterbox "Pretty Woman" correctly is via component 1 and Zoom.

The other alternative is to get a different DVI enabled DVD player. Needing two (DVI & Component 1) connections to view all types of DVD transfers is a design failure in the HD-931. Samsung "should" change that in the next HD-931 model.

The HD-931 has another problem to consider too.

Click here for Color Space information. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3029963#post3029963)

I am still confused about anamorphic and "enhanced for widescreen". Just set up a new HLN507w, with a progressive scan DVD hooked up by component cables. Put in a DVD (Pearl Harbor) which is "Widescreen 2.35:1 - Enhanced for 16:9 Televisions"

Here is how it looks with various settings:
Normal - black bars on the side and top, and normal looking picture, with great quality
Wide - black bars on top and bottom and fat/stretched looking picture
Zoom1 - smaller black bars and normal looking (non fat/stretched) picture, however, the quality is not as "clear" as in Normal mode.

Am I doing something wrong? How would this "enhanced for widescreen" different than any widescreen DVD?

Originally posted by austink
I am still confused about anamorphic and "enhanced for widescreen". Just set up a new HLN507w, with a progressive scan DVD hooked up by component cables. Put in a DVD (Pearl Harbor) which is "Widescreen 2.35:1 - Enhanced for 16:9 Televisions"

Here is how it looks with various settings:
Normal - black bars on the side and top, and normal looking picture, with great quality
Wide - black bars on top and bottom and fat/stretched looking picture
Zoom1 - smaller black bars and normal looking (non fat/stretched) picture, however, the quality is not as "clear" as in Normal mode.

Am I doing something wrong? How would this "enhanced for widescreen" different than any widescreen DVD?

Pearl Harbor is Anamorphic Widescreen and has a 2.35:1 aspect ratio. The correct Aspect Mode on the HLN507 would be "Wide". There should be black bars top and bottom but people should not look streached.

Something else must be wrong. The first candidate would be your DVD player. It should have a setup choice to tell it the type of display you are using. There will either be a menu item or maybe a switch on the front or back to select either 4x3 or 16x9. It should be set to match the aspect ratio of your HLN507 which is 16x9.

After you get your DVDs displayed correctly you might want to try your DVD player with progressive mode off. Many times your Samsung's Faroudja chip will give you better picture quality than the DVD player. To do that you have to be connected to component 1.

To know which transfer type is which can be confusing. The "black bar" thead also has other links (at the bottom of the first message) you can explore which might make it clearer than I did.

Once you get your setup producing the right image it may be easier to understand.

Originally posted by RockScaler
Some of us are old enough to remember watching Howdy Doody on our brand new 7" round TV. ...
Rock
I started when test patterns were a big thing. :)

Originally posted by htwaits
Pearl Harbor is Anamorphic Widescreen and has a 2.35:1 aspect ratio. The correct Aspect Mode on the HLN507 would be "Wide". There should be black bars top and bottom but people should not look streached.

Something else must be wrong. The first candidate would be your DVD player. It should have a setup choice to tell it the type of display you are using. There will either be a menu item or maybe a switch on the front or back to select either 4x3 or 16x9. It should be set to match the aspect ratio of your HLN507 which is 16x9.




Htwaits: I have the Samsung HD-931 so is there a switch on that player to go to or from 16 x 9, or is the aspect ratio permanently built in to the unit?
"Pretty Woman" is stretched out and looks like what print on a ballon would look like if it were stretched. I have a strong feeling I'll be returning the HD-931 because of the poor way it seems to handle a good number of dvd's........though I must say, and the wife would agree, the picture (assuming a quality DVD) is superb as was witnessed last night when we bought and played "Finding Nemo".





After you get your DVDs displayed correctly you might want to try your DVD player with progressive mode off. Many times your Samsung's Faroudja chip will give you better picture quality than the DVD player. To do that you have to be connected to component 1.

To know which transfer type is which can be confusing. The "black bar" thead also has other links (at the bottom of the first message) you can explore which might make it clearer than I did.

Once you get your setup producing the right image it may be easier to understand.

kmil,

I think this is what you wrote. It's hard to be sure because you inserted your comments into the bold face quates.


Htwaits: I have the Samsung HD-931 so is there a switch on that player to go to or from 16 x 9, or is the aspect ratio permanently built in to the unit?

I don't own a HD-931 but look on the back of the player. If there is a switch it will be labeled. If there isn't a switch then there will be a setup menu choice. You will have to make sure the HD-931 knows you have a 16x9 dislplay unit connected.

The aspect ratio of the display unit is not fixed in the HD-931. You have to select either 4x3 or 16x9.


"Pretty Woman" is stretched out and looks like what print on a ballon would look like if it were stretched. I have a strong feeling I'll be returning the HD-931 because of the poor way it seems to handle a good number of dvd's.......

"Pretty Women" can not be played correctly using the HD-931 if it is only connected through DVI. You have to also connect it with component cables to component 1. Then you can play "Letterbox" films like "Pretty Women" with the aspect mode set to Zoom.

The HD-931 handles all movies correctly. It just takes two connection types (DVI and Component 1) to do it. :)


.though I must say, and the wife would agree, the picture (assuming a quality DVD) is superb as was witnessed last night when we bought and played "Finding Nemo".


You just need to get used to the major types of movie transfers that you may run into. There are only three of them -- "Anamorphic -- Enhanced for Widescreen", "Letterbox - Widescreen", and 4x3 (1.33:1).

Even if you return the HD-931 for a DVD player that can handle all three with just the DVI connection, you will still need to select the correct aspect mode depending on which type of transfer was used for the film.

Originally posted by htwaits
I started when test patterns were a big thing. :)

http://www.moderntv.com/modtvweb/special/mod-testbw1.jpg

Jordan 420 you bring tears to my eyes. Now all I need is the "focus" knob that brought so much fun to America's living rooms around 1950.

My DVD player is the sony dvp-s700p and my tv is the philips 55pp9701 55" wide screen hi-def rptv. The problem I have is that the tv has one hi-def component input and one non-hi-def. Additionally, the zoom functions do not work on the tv when using the hi-def component inputs and the zoom function of the dvd player do not work when it is in progressive scan mode.

This becomes a problem with 2.35:1 non-enhanced dvds, when played the picture takes up only the middle 1/3 of the screen and is distorted such that it is unwatchable. The obvious solution is to switch the cables from the hi-def input to the regular one and not use progressive scan, but of course that deteriorates the picture.

My first thought is is there any other way to set it up to avoid this? My second thought is I'm thinking abou tbuying the samsung hd-dvd941 as a replacement player because I understand you can use the zoom function with the dvi output.

Does your TV have a DVI/HDCP input?

If I were in your situation I would use the non-HD (480i/480p?) input for DVD movies.

If your DVD player does a better job of deinterlacing than your TV I would use progressive mode (480p) for anamorphic transfers. Then I would use interleaved mode (480i) for Letterbox wide screen films ("Zoom" aspect mode).

You didn't mention Academy Standard (4x3) films but I would take the same approach with them and use your TV's equivalent of "Normal" aspect mode.

In order, yes the tv has a dvi, which I don't currently use.

For some reason that I do not understand, the tv's non-hd input does not play a progressive signal (and conversly the hd input will not play an interlaced signal).

Because of this I don't switch back and forth from progressive to interlaced because that would mean having to physically move the component interconnects from the hi-def input to the non-hi def input. It's a real hassle to move the tv to do that.

I don't buy 4:3 movies unless that's the format it was originaly shot in.

SO because of this, I'm looking for a new player that maybe will solve this problem. I have been reading about the samsung 941 and that might do it. I also have been thinking about the Philips 963sa mostly because of the rave reivews it got, but I don't know if it has a zoom function while in progressive mode like the samsung does, and I would rule it out if it didn't. I also suppose I can wait and see what else comes down the pike in terms of other hd-dvd players to see if something else would take care of this.

I just attempted to incorporate HLP configuration information into this monster. If anyone happens across miss statements or impossible to decipher prose please let me know. :rolleyes:

Revised the first message to include better information about using "Expand" when a DVD player is connected to HLP sets with either the DVI or HDMI input.

[quote]Originally posted by drew138
So am I correct to assume that an aspect ratio of 1:78:1 will always produce a full image on a 16:9.

Right.

16 divided by 9 equals 1.78 which is a perfect fit. Also, films with a 1.85:1 aspect ratio will have black bars so thin that they will be lost in your set's over-scan.[quote]

Actually, it depends. I was completely confused by this when I first got my HLP4674 and watched "Things to do in Denver when You're Dead" through my Denon 3910. The DVD case says only that the film's aspect ratio is 1.85:1. Well, I got black bars on the top and bottom. I asked about this on the DVD forum, as it is not covered in the "Black Bars" sticky, and I now understand that even if the aspect ratio is 1.85:1, you will still get black bars if it is not anamorphic. The anamorphic characteristic of a 1.85:1 film is what allows the frame to be stretched vertically as well as horizontally while preserving resolution.

There are not that many movies that are not anamorphic, but those that are can make things confusing. "Denver" said nothing about being a letterbox presentation, but there are obviously black bars. Of course, this can be eliminated using a zoom function on my DVD player, but this crops portions of the sides. I would rather see the whole picture and deal with the black bars - it's still plenty big enough on a wide screen TV.

As for 2.35:1 movies, my question is when will we see a 2.35:1 TV?:D

The "black bars" message at the top of this thread needs a HLR rewrite. I'll see what I can do.

"Anamorphic" means 'different shape'... the wider image is horizontally compressed before recording, so it can be horizontally expanded on playback to full width. No effect on the vertical axis. You're still limited to the same number of pixels, but anamorphic has wide 4:3 pixels instead of square ones. The 'anamorphic' version of the film is output instead of the standard version when display type is set to 16:9 widescreen.

An unusual aspect ratio is 2.76:1 in Ben-Hur (to add to your list).

An unusual aspect ratio is 2.76:1 in Ben-Hur (to add to your list).Thanks. :)

do you think is it alright to set a 2:35:1 anamorphic widescreen to zoom mode to fill the screen?

do you think is it alright to set a 2:35:1 anamorphic widescreen to zoom mode to fill the screen?Sure, but the "zoom" will clip the ends of the image and there will be a small loss of picture quality.

I'd just like to point out that a lot of Disney animated movies are 1.66:1, and they fill up a 16x9 tv.

I recently got KDFE60A20 to start of new HT. I used to have an old 36 inch toshiba tube and hooked up to it i had samsung HT DB 600 HTIB. Well I hooked it up to my tv and I noticed the black bars in question. I went to menu on DVD and it has wide setting. But I dont think its anamorphic. i assume my DVD is a piece of garbage correct?

I recently got KDFE60A20 to start of new HT. I used to have an old 36 inch toshiba tube and hooked up to it i had samsung HT DB 600 HTIB. Well I hooked it up to my tv and I noticed the black bars in question. I went to menu on DVD and it has wide setting. But I dont think its anamorphic. i assume my DVD is a piece of garbage correct?I don't know your DVD player. Does it have a 4x3/16x9 switch? If so it needs to be switched to 16x9 otherwise the image will be distorted.

I dont see a physical switch but I can go in menu and switch to wide . But I still have bars. Maybe I need to go in Wegagate to adjust screen size. I just think i have a crap HTIB and need to update. Holding out over this blueray HD DVD thing though. But if my DVD is true crap I will update

No DVD player eliminates black bars with out degrading the image.

I dont see a physical switch but I can go in menu and switch to wide .All very old DVD players expected to be connected to a 4x3 set. Your DVD player isn't that old. Your DVD player is Progressive so it must have an option to switch between a 4x3 or 16x9 display. That option can also be in the setup menus. It has nothing to do with the "wide" option.

But I still have bars.How is your DVD player connected to your TV? You should be using component out from the DVD player to the TV. The TV can Zoom the image like I said in my earlier message. I don't know what terms Sony A10s us for Panorama (horizontal stretching of the image left an right) or Zoom (magnifying the image an equal amount in all four directions until the image reaches the top and bottom of the screen).

The type of connection you use, and the resolution of the input image can effect the options for adjusting the image that your TV will give you.

Your best bet would be to turn off progressive mode (480p) in the DVD player, and let your TV do all the de-interlacing and scaling.

Holding out over this blueray HD DVD thing though. But if my DVD is true crap I will updateYour TV won't take advantage of HD DVD or BR DVD. It's going to be a long time before either one gets reasonably available. At first there are going to be a lot of expensive "gotchas".

This thread is great, thanks a bunch.

This thread is great, thanks a bunch.You're welcome. :)

htwaits wrote:

I don't think in 65 years (allowing five years for minimum growth ) that I've ever seen a 4x3 screen that stretched floor to ceiling.

Ever seen an IMAX film? 4x3, floor-to-ceiling. :)

Tom

Ever seen an IMAX film? 4x3, floor-to-ceiling. :) And three of them side by side. :)

The worst movie experience that I can remember is one of the Star Wars films in an IMAX theater. :eek:

If any HLR or HLS owners would like to post the names and results of using each of the picture size options on your TVs, I will be glad to include that information in the first message of this thread.

Maybe someone can help here. I still run an old Pioneer Laserdisc player, which at the time, was where it was at in video ( I also have a recent DVD player). So when I play a letterbox laserdisc on a recently acquired SXRD set, the letterboxed image sits in a 1.33:1 (4:3) box in the middle of the screen with black bars on ALL sides. The Pioneer is from the early 90's and has no setup options since all TV's back then, including RPTV (I had a Mitsu) were 4:3. I use the zoom feature on the SXRD to expand the size, though it still leaves bars because the image sits in that 4:3 box. I use an S-video connection (there was no component back then). Of course the laserdisc image is inferior to DVD, and the zooming magnifies the flaws. Is there any other way to handle all of this? If nothing else, this is a reminder of how far things have come in a short 10-15 years. Thanks for your advice. .. Jeff

Is there any other way to handle all of this?I don't think so. If the zoom is an equal amount in all four directions there should be black bars top and bottom if the original image was greater than 1.85:1. I gave my laser disks away, and replaced the ones where I knew I would want to see them again.

Maybe someone can help here. I still run an old Pioneer Laserdisc player, which at the time, was where it was at in video ( I also have a recent DVD player). So when I play a letterbox laserdisc on a recently acquired SXRD set, the letterboxed image sits in a 1.33:1 (4:3) box in the middle of the screen with black bars on ALL sides. The Pioneer is from the early 90's and has no setup options since all TV's back then, including RPTV (I had a Mitsu) were 4:3. I use the zoom feature on the SXRD to expand the size, though it still leaves bars because the image sits in that 4:3 box. I use an S-video connection (there was no component back then). Of course the laserdisc image is inferior to DVD, and the zooming magnifies the flaws. Is there any other way to handle all of this? If nothing else, this is a reminder of how far things have come in a short 10-15 years. Thanks for your advice. .. Jeff
But at least you can still see it. I also have a closet full of LD and still play them on my old XBR 4x3. I am going to buy a sdrx also and still have a Old Pioneer. If you figure this out, please post on this thread. Some of the great LD were never transferred to DVD

In ref to your original Black Bars post at the beginning of this thread.
Back in the late '60s and all through the 1970s I did part time fill-in work as a projectionist (I.A.T.S.E. Local 156) at 3 indoor theaters and during summers at 2 "ozoners" as we called the drive-ins.

One of the Drive-Ins and 1 of the indoor houses had "Super Panatar Anamorphic adapters with adjustable prisms (big knob on top) that were hung on the front of the IPC Super-Simplex projectors in combination with a lens change whenever we were showing a "C-Scope" picture. Those two theaters also had an assortment of aperture plates that plugged in between the shutter and the gate. Of particular interest was the vertical to horizontal ratios of these aperture plates. The one we used for "flat" film stock was 1.5:1 (not 1.33) - In fact none of the 5 theaters had a 1.33:1 aperture plate and before your post I had never heard of that aspect ratio. The C-Scope plates were 2.33:1 (used frequently) and 2.75:1 (used seldom). The Super Panatars also had marks drawn on them to indicate the two different settings for the two "scope" variants.

At the drive-ins, where the double-feature was standard fare, the changeover from the end of your intermission trailer and cartoons to the tradmark signon of a 20th Century Fox film(drum roll & spotlights) with a 6KW carbon arc lamp suddenly lighting up a 65 x 150 ft screen was awe-inspiring every time you saw it.

Back in the late '60s and all through the 1970s I did part time fill-in work as a projectionist (I.A.T.S.E. Local 156) at 3 indoor theaters and during summers at 2 "ozoners" as we called the drive-ins.Drive-Ins must have been beginning to be on their way out by that time. I don't think I ever went to one after the early 50's. Once we backed in through the exit. Very exciting. :)

Aspect ratios aside, when is the proper time to watch "Nightmare Before Christmas"? Since Halloween seems too early and Xmas too late, I watch it at Thanksgiving.


Or, just about every weekend if you have a eight year old grandaughter :D ; by the way she doe not care for Corpse Bride.

The " Picture Size" options used in the first post are based on the Samsung HLP sets. If anyone posts a "definitive" list (and their effect) of the "Picture Size" controls for later (HLR and HLS) sets I will be glad to revise the first post.

Thanks for the help.

I just hooked up my new KDS-55A2000 SXRD... popped in the new Cars DVD and got the black bars. I had no idea about all the aspect ratio stuff... I just figured Anamorphic 16:9 would fill my screen. Still... even with the black bars, it's a great picture.

I also didn't know about the settings in the DVD player menu... mine was indeed set to 4:3... I changed it to 16:9 and I get a much better picture in the Full setting.

So about upconverters...

Since my TV has a native resolution of 1920x1080... from what I have gathered, a 1080 upconverter would just give me a sharper picture while keeping the black bars. Correct?

Also... for those who have an upconverter DVD, is the picture quality upgrade worth the extra $100 - $150. That much of a difference? Using the Cars DVD as an example... would the upconverter actually bring a 1080 res. to my screen?

Thanks!

I just hooked up my new KDS-55A2000 SXRD... popped in the new Cars DVD and got the black bars. I had no idea about all the aspect ratio stuff... I just figured Anamorphic 16:9 would fill my screen. Still... even with the black bars, it's a great picture.As you now know from reading the first post in this thread Wide Screen movies come in several different widths. :)

Wide screen television set all have an aspect ratio of 16 units in width for each 9 units in height. If you divide 16 by 9 you get 1.77 which is the aspect ratio of many movies. As the movies get wider the only way to display them on a 16x9 screen without distortion or cropping is to add black bars. The movie Cars was created with an aspect ratio of 2.35:1 which means that for each 2.35 units of width there will be one unit of height so it's wider than your TV screen.

The box that the Cars DVD came in should be labeled "Widescreen Anamorphic 2.35:1". Another common width is 1.85:1 which is so close to 1.77(16x9) that you won't be able to see the very thin black bars.

I also didn't know about the settings in the DVD player menu... mine was indeed set to 4:3... I changed it to 16:9 and I get a much better picture in the Full setting.It's necessary to make that change for your DVD player to work properly with you 16x9 TV. I'm not sure what you mean by "Full". In the past "Full" has been used to refer to wide screen movies transferred to DVD after their original image has been cropped to fit a 4x3 TV screen. Those transfers to DVD are also called "Full Screen" or "Pan and Scan".

So about upconverters...

Since my TV has a native resolution of 1920x1080... from what I have gathered, a 1080 upconverter would just give me a sharper picture while keeping the black bars. Correct?Not exactly. ;)

Movies stored on SD DVDs are 480i. Your TV can only display 1080p. Every signal that your TV receives must be converted from 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i to 1080p before it is displayed.

Your TV can convert any input to 1080p. Some "up-scaling" DVD players can convert 480i to 1080p. Some "up-scaling" DVD players do a better job than some TV sets. On the other hand some TV sets do a better job than some DVD players. It's one of those "it depends" situations.

A good up-scaling DVD player will give you a sharper picture than a poor quality up-scaling DVD player.

There are some up-scaling SD DVD players that convert 480i to 480p, 720p, or 1080i. That's true because almost no 1080p TV sets would except a 1080p input until this year.

Most older SD DVD players can only convert 480i to 480p (progressive mode). That's true because most of the TV sets in the world can accept only 480i or 480p inputs.

Your DVD player is probably set to output 480p. It can also output 480i. If you are using a component connection to your TV then it's easy to switch between 480i and 480p output to see which one you like best. My guess is that your TV will do a better job of de-interlacing 480i than your DVD player. Give that a try.

... for those who have an upconverter DVD, is the picture quality upgrade worth the extra $100 - $150. That much of a difference?Not if your TV does a good job doing what I described above.

Using the Cars DVD as an example... would the upconverter actually bring a 1080 res. to my screen?"Cars" has it's data stored in 480i. That relatively small amount of data has to be expanded to 1080p before it can be displayed. No new data can be added. A computer program guesses at what the added pixel should look like.

When "Cars" gets de-interlaced and then upscaled by either a DVD player or your TV set, the final result will be a 1080p signal that estimates what the image should look like if it was HD instead of being SD. From what I've read your TV does a good job of estimating. :)

A high definition DVD has a lot more data. That's why it's called "high" definition, and that's the only way you can get more "real and not estimated" data from a DVD to your TV.

Keep in mind that if you watch a movie that is wider than 1.85:1 on your TV there have to be black bars on the top and bottom of the image. When an older movie with an aspect ratio smaller than 1.77:1 is played then there will be black bars on each side of the image. Those movies are mostly 1.33:1 (4x3) and they fit TVs with 4x3 screens. Again 4divided by 3 equals 1.33.

If you use a setting on your DVD player or your TV to get rid of the black bars then the image will either be cropped (ends cut off) or distorted (stretched). Some people want their screen to be full of "image" and don't care. Others would rather have the black bars and see the whole movie image as it was created.

First off... I really appreciate your time and efforts here. I know this stuff isn't rocket surgery ;) but getting a good clear understanding of all the different variables is rather daunting.

It's necessary to make that change for your DVD player to work properly with you 16x9 TV. I'm not sure what you mean by "Full". In the past "Full" has been used to refer to wide screen movies transferred to DVD after their original image has been cropped to fit a 4x3 TV screen. Those transfers to DVD are also called "Full Screen" or "Pan and Scan".

Well... I just set up the TV yesterday, so I haven't had much of a chance to understand what all the modes are and what they mean.

When watching Cars, the best picture I had with the picture at full width with the black bars top and bottom was in FULL on the Wide Mode setting through the TV. As I said, I don't quite understand what I am doing yet... not even sure what I am seeing. I do know that the picture in that mode is very crisp and clear with no distortion to the image (stretching or compressing). Obviously I have much more Sherlocking to do. :)

Most older SD DVD players can only convert 480i to 480p (progressive mode). That's true because most of the TV sets in the world can accept only 480i or 480p inputs.

The upscaling DVD player I am looking at is the DVP-NS75H, which states that it upscales to 1080 through an HDMI connection. From my research, it's supposed to be a quality player.

Your DVD player is probably set to output 480p. It can also output 480i. If you are using a component connection to your TV then it's easy to switch between 480i and 480p output to see which one you like best. My guess is that your TV will do a better job of de-interlacing 480i than your DVD player. Give that a try.

I am using a component connection between the DVD player and the TV. How do I switch between 480i & 480p?

When "Cars" gets de-interlaced and then upscaled by either a DVD player or your TV set, the final result will be a 1080p signal that estimates what the image should look like if it was HD instead of being SD. From what I've read your TV does a good job of estimating. :)

I guess the way to tell if the TV is doing a good job of estimating is whether I like what I am seeing. I need to view a few more DVD's to get a sense of what the TV is capable of.

A high definition DVD has a lot more data. That's why it's called "high" definition, and that's the only way you can get more "real and not estimated" data from a DVD to your TV.

So... there are DVD's out there which are recorded in 1080?

vIf you use a setting on your DVD player or your TV to get rid of the black bars then the image will either be cropped (ends cut off) or distorted (stretched). Some people want their screen to be full of "image" and don't care. Others would rather have the black bars and see the whole movie image as it was created.

Well... as I stated above, in the "FULL" mode setting, I didn't see any distortion. I'm going to go back and pause a particular scene & switch back & forth to see if there is any data missing from the left & right edges.

Additional question... since the Sony upscaler uses an HDMI connection, is it likely I will get a better picture as opposed to my current player using components?

Again... Thank You for the time and effort!

First off... I really appreciate your time and efforts here. I know this stuff isn't rocket surgery ;) but getting a good clear understanding of all the different variables is rather daunting.You're welcome.

You're also right that it's daunting. :eek: That's why I basically rewrote a big part of post #1 to reply to your questions.

Well... I just set up the TV yesterday, so I haven't had much of a chance to understand what all the modes are and what they mean.I don't have a HLS set. Can you post the picture size options available to you when you use your component connection?

If you have a HDMI connection post those picture size options too. It's a somewhat different group of options.

When watching Cars, the best picture I had with the picture at full width with the black bars top and bottom was in FULL on the Wide Mode setting through the TV. "Wide Mode" sounds right but I'm confused by the reference to "Full". Does "Wide Mode" on a HLS have additional options?

I just down loaded the HL-Sxx87 manual and did a search for "full". There doesn't seem to be a mode called "full". :)

The Picture Size section of the manual isn't complete, and its badly written. It does list these options:

16:9 Wide Mode (I would use this option for all inputs.)
Zoom1 Magnified
Zoom2 Magnified More
Wide Fit Forces the aspect ratio to fit a 16:9 screen
4:3 4:3 normal mode

I do know that the picture in that mode is very crisp and clear with no distortion to the image (stretching or compressing). That sounds good to me.

The upscaling DVD player I am looking at is the DVP-NS75H, which states that it upscales to 1080 through an HDMI connection. From my research, it's supposed to be a quality player.Here is a picky detail. :rolleyes:

There are two 1080 resolutions. There is 1080i (interleaved) and there is also 1080p (progressive). Your TV is 1080p (progressive) so even if you buy the Sony the TV will have to de-interleave the 1080i signal from the DVD player. If you had the same DVD player and a 720p TV set then the up-scaling player would be able to convert the DVD's 480i signal to the native resolution of your 720p TV.

Since you already have a DVD player that can output either 480i or 480p (unless it's so old that it can only output 480i like mine) why not spend some time finding out about what's going on in the DVD player world. Sony is good, but OPPO gets a lot of support at AVS. With your TV you may not need either one. There is always the option of waiting for the high definition format war to be settled.

Here are some relevant links:

DVD Players (Standard Def.) (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=18)

Blu-ray & HD DVD Areas (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=148)

All You Ever Wanted To Know About the "87"/"88" Sets! (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=697413) ... and then some.

I am using a component connection between the DVD player and the TV. How do I switch between 480i & 480p?You can switch between 480i (interleaved) and 480p (progressive) in the same general menu area that you used to switch your DVD player to work with a 16x9 screen. Look for something like "Progressive Mode" ON/OFF, or some reference to a choice between 480i and 480p.

So... there are DVD's out there which are recorded in 1080?Yes. That's what the "Blu-ray & HD DVD Areas" is all about. Unfortunately there is a format war going on, and most people are waiting for that to be settled before investing in high definition technology. I keep referring to "high definition" instead of HD DVD because Toshiba refers to their technology as HD-DVD. Sony is the other combatant. Sony calls their technology Blu-Ray.

Well... as I stated above, in the "FULL" mode setting, I didn't see any distortion.If by "FULL" mode you mean Picture Size is set to 16:9 then you have it in the right place. If not please explain. :)

Additional question... since the Sony upscaler uses an HDMI connection, is it likely I will get a better picture as opposed to my current player using components?Maybe. Many people think so.

Using Component input means that the data from the DVD must be converted from digital 480i to either analog 480i or analog 480p before it can be sent to the TV. Once that signal is sent to your TV it has to be converted back to digital data and converted to 1080p. Using Component connections on a TV with a complete digital path to the display means two unnecessary conversions. If the TV doesn't have a complete digital path to the display then it gets more complicated. :eek:

A HDMI input is digital so no extra convertions to analog and back agian as long as the TV has an all digital path to the display section.

The good thing is that you can take your time with all these choices. As you learn more your choices "might" get easier. ;)

Each time I read your replies, I have 10 more questions. :eek:

So before I get too far and waste your time & bandwidth, let me do some tinkering with my set up and get my feet under me concerning what we have went over so far.

I'll check back in a later this evening with (hopefully) a better understanding of what I have going on.

I'll check back in a later this evening with (hopefully) a better understanding of what I have going on.Sure.

Each time I read your replies, I have 10 more questions. :eek: One reason may be that somewhere along the line I seem to have forgotten that you have a Sony. That means that any reference to Samsung terminology would have to be converted into Sony Speak.

If I can get Picture Size control information for a wider range of models that I had access to when this thread started I will revise the whole thing in an attempt to make it more useful. Any contributions gladly accepted. :)

I was once a fan of sony wide zoom mode but now i am not such a fan. Compared to full with overscan at -1 their is just no comparison. Now you can go to +3 to fill the picture but their is still black bars. If they had +4 their would be no need for wide zoom and it would look great with just a little bit of black bars.. I think sxrd's fill the screen more compared to my lcd. But for movies that fill the screen i can get less overscan. For movies with black bars you really need a tv about 65in. In full mode 65in is pretty big. Makes picking the right size pretty tough having to consider aspect ratio. Most hd-dvd's i believe fills the whole screen up in 16:9 mode.

Most hd-dvd's i believe fills the whole screen up in 16:9 mode.If you want to avoid distorting or cropping the image, it's the aspect ratio of the movie transferred to DVD that determines the black bars you see.

Any movie with an aspect ratio over 1.85:1 will have black bars top and bottom.

Any movie with an aspect ratio under 1.77:1 will have black bars left and right of the image.

Most current adventure and block buster movies have aspect ratios around 2.35:1. Most other current movies have either 1.77:1 or 1.85:1. The later out number the former by quit a bit.

HD-DVDs can come in any aspect ratio. In that respect they are no different than SD DVDs. At some point "Casablanca" will be transferred to either HD-DVD or BluRay, but it will still be a 1.33:1 (4x3) image on the screen.

See the first post for information about 1.33:1 or Letterboxed older movies. They are a special case.

I was wondering if I could add a question to this discussion.

I have the Samsung HLS-5687W and the Sony DVP-NS75H. My question is, am I losing picture quality because my Sony is upconverting to 1080i, and then the TV has to convert that to 1080p? Would it be better to have just one conversion occur, meaning I turn off the upconverting feature on the DVD player and allow the TV to do all of the calculations?

Thank you for your help on this.

Brian

I have the Samsung HLS-5687W and the Sony DVP-NS75H. My question is, am I losing picture quality because my Sony is upconverting to 1080i, and then the TV has to convert that to 1080p? Would it be better to have just one conversion occur, meaning I turn off the upconverting feature on the DVD player and allow the TV to do all of the calculations?To find out what the TV can do try outputting 480i from your DVD player.

You don't say how your DVD player is connected. That can make a difference too.

I connect my DVD player through HDMI.

Thanks!

Brian

I connect my DVD player through HDMI. You may want to subscribe to the owner's thread for your new TV.

Samsung 1080p Owner's Thread --- HLSxx87W/HLSxx88W DLP Models (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=665890&page=1&pp=30)

Wow!!

Great thread, thanks for all the information.

I'm going to have to reread it about 4 times to understand everything though :D

Great thread, thanks for all the information.You're welcome. :)

Some of us are old enough to remember watching Howdy Doody on our brand new 7" round TV. I think 4:3 TV standard came from the fact that round picture tubes couldn't do much better. Plus that was the ratio of the movies too. I also remember our first color TV which also had a round tube masked to a 4:3 rectangle but the corners of the screen were cut off.
Rock
Ouch, for me it wasn't 7" but a 12" Olympia. Also caught a lot of Rodney and Kinish :o And of course a bit later The Little Rascals, probably one of my favorite childhood series.

Post #1 revised to show that 1.33:1 silent movie's aspect ratio was revised to 1.37:1 to allow space for a sound track when "talkies" were introduced. Thanks to kelpie for point this out.

Nice tutorial, thanks for the info.

Nice tutorial, thanks for the info.You're welcome. :)

Hello ALL

I might be in the wrong place and I am just getting into this problem after having spent $3000, so please excuse my impatience and bitterness.

I just connected my Sony 40 XBR2 LCD via HDMI to my Oppo 970 HD which gets switched thought my Onkyo 674 also via HDMI.

I knew about bars with SD, but when I started watching DVD's and could not get rid of the bars, I almost put my foot through the LCD. Is there nothing I can do?

I am watching the movie CRASH. It is labled widescreen 16:9 but when I watch in normal mode, I have a picture frame. If I hit the wide button on the remote, it goes to wide full, and the vertical lines left and right disappear. If I go to zoom all the bars disappear, but the picture loses some of the scene around the edges.

It seems from what I am reading here, that there is nothing that can be done. Please tell me that that ain't so!!!

Lenore :confused:

I almost put my foot through the LCD. :rolleyes:

Is there nothing I can do?Did you read the first post in this thread?

I am watching the movie CRASH.There seem to be a lot of movies with the title "Crash". Maybe if you list the star I can tell which one you are watching. Or you can look it up at the IMDb site.

What you describe sounds like an older movie released before Anamorphic Widescreen processing. Read about "Letterbox films" in the first post.

If the DVD is Letterbox then you want to zoom the image an equal amount in all four directions. You need to ask about the Zoom control on your TV in the owner's thread for your set. Some sets won't offer Zoom if you connect with a HDMI cable. Also the input resolution can effect which picture size controls your TV will activate.

It seems from what I am reading here, that there is nothing that can be done. Please tell me that that ain't so!!!If you learn more about the different aspect ratios that have been stored on DVDs, and more about your TV, and your DVD player's controls you should be able to change what you are seeing on the screen.

If the film you are watching is Letterbox then zooming it will reduce it's already below average picture quality. A Letterbox film has the least amount of data to create an image.

I'm going to be reorganizing the first post soon.

If anyone has any ideas, or content to contribute that will be great. It would help if we had detailed information about picture size controls for various models. I'm an owner of a HL-P5063, and have pretty good information about the Samsung models from 2002 through 2004.

If the DVD is Letterbox then you want to zoom the image an equal amount in all four directions. You need to ask about the Zoom control on your TV in the owner's thread for your set. Some sets won't offer Zoom if you connect with a HDMI cable. Also the input resolution can effect which picture size controls your TV will activate

To add to the TV model info regarding this....

The Hitachi F59 series (and I'm assuming the F710s as well) CRT RPTVs do allow aspect/"zoom" changes when being fed 720p/1080i video via HDMI.

edit: this was true with my set & a Sony NS75H upscaling DVD player via HDMI. Same holds true with 4:3 letterbox DVDs played on a Tosh HD-A2 HD DVD player via HDMI as well. HD-A2 has no internal zoom function, but the F59 aspect function will allow for the neccessary "16x9 Zoom" to fill the screen properly.

Any questions? :)

I'll just add, that us early LD adopters are probably mostly to thank for the black bars. Myself and many many others sent letters to the FCC to allow letterbox. Untl then it was mandated that if it was NTSC it HAD to fill a 4:3 screen.

I'll just add, that us early LD adopters are proably mostly to thank for the black bars. Myself and many many others sent letters to the FCC to allow letterbox. Untl then it was mandated that if it was NTSC it HAD to fill a 4:3 screen.I'm one who appreciated the change back then.

on the 5689S, is there a way to adjust the picture so that regular channels are stretched to fit the screen, this happens automatically on my LCD 5071

on the 5689S, is there a way to adjust the picture so that regular channels are stretched to fit the screen, this happens automatically on my LCD 5071You can find out in the owner's thread for your model.

2007 Samsung LED Owner's Thread (HLT XX87/89S) (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=827799)

Comcast in Chicago -

seems like occasionally i notice captions or words near the bottom of the screen are cut off. especially noticeable on commercials. also, the station logos are usually cut off on the right edge. this is while viewing in HD. my TV letterboxes HD.

i'm using a Sony KV27HS420 27 Inch FD Trinitron Wega Hi-Scan TV w/Component 1080i.

any ideas? is it overscanning somehow? it seems the ratio is correct, so i'm not sure what to do about that.

Comcast in Chicago -

seems like occasionally i notice captions or words near the bottom of the screen are cut off. especially noticeable on commercials. also, the station logos are usually cut off on the right edge. this is while viewing in HD. my TV letterboxes HD.

i'm using a Sony KV27HS420 27 Inch FD Trinitron Wega Hi-Scan TV w/Component 1080i.

any ideas? is it overscanning somehow? it seems the ratio is correct, so i'm not sure what to do about that.Yes it's overscan. There has been overscan since day one of CRT based TV sets. I don't know your set, but I doubt that you can do anything about it. Overscan is used to protect viewers from static at the edges of the analog transmission. Maybe as we get further into the digital age, they will stop building overscan into displays.

yeah but it's not analog, it's HD. so there shouldn't be overscan because there is no caption track at the top, right? odd that it would still build that into the picture. oh well.

yeah but it's not analog, it's HD. so there shouldn't be overscan because there is no caption track at the top, right? odd that it would still build that into the picture. oh well.Overscan is designed into all TV sets. There are a few where you can reduce the overscan to almost zero. A Pioneer Kuro 1080p plasma receiving a 1080p or 1080i signal is one example. For almost all HDTV sets that's not possible.

thanks for the responses. i'm looking at Kuro's, so that's good to know.

i'm getting this cutoff on channels like ABC with their logo:

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f50/shadowravenz/ABCLogo.jpg

kinda hard to see, sorry - but look at the ABC HD logo - you can only see half the "H"

also, i'm getting text cutoff on most channels, but here's an example on TLC:

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f50/shadowravenz/TextCutoff1.jpg

here's another one where you can barely make out the tips of words at the bottom that should be there:

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f50/shadowravenz/TextCutoff2.jpg

here's my setup:

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f50/shadowravenz/SetUp.jpg


any ideas? or is this kind of overscan normal?

any ideas? or is this kind of overscan normal?All CRT direct view displays, like yours, have always has a large amount (5%-8%) of overscan. With newer technology, like thin panels and microchip RPTVs, the amount of overscan can vary quite a bit depending on how the displays are configured (0% -5%).

At some point in the future overscan should disappear.

should it really be overscanning that much on a digital source though? it's an HDTV, you'd think it would be smart enough to realize it doesn't need much if any. it's got ClearEdge enhancement - is that just sharpness or could that be a setting i could change to fix some overscan?

should it really be overscanning that much on a digital source though? it's an HDTV, you'd think it would be smart enough to realize it doesn't need much if any. it's got ClearEdge enhancement - is that just sharpness or could that be a setting i could change to fix some overscan?There are no displays that I'm aware of that can adjust the amount of overscan themselves. Some sets have options that you can select that will reduce overscan.

The 2007 1080p Pioneer Kuro plasmas have a setting that results in zero overscan if the input signal is either 1080i or 1080p. If the input signal is 720p these sets will switch to a mode with a small amount of overscan even though 720p is both digital and HD.

thanks for the info, i didn't realize that. dot-for-dot is the setting on Pio's right? That's what I'm getting in June.

thanks for the info, i didn't realize that. dot-for-dot is the setting on Pio's right? That's what I'm getting in June.That's right if you get a 1080p set.

If you select Dot by Dot, then the set will automatically switch to Full if the input isn't 1080i or P. I'm not sure what happens if you select Full and then input a 1080i or P signal. I think you will get a small amount of overscan and remain in Full size mode. I keep our 6010 in Dot by Dot mode, and our cable box set to output 1080i for all channels.

The following is quoted from "The Official Pioneer 9G Elite KURO Owner's Discussion Thread".

Can't believe that with all of the pertinent information that is available--and has for a long time--on the Internet regarding film and video transfers aspect ratios that many folks are still confused as to what they should be seeing on display devices. Am glad you make that distinction perfectly clear.

Simply put, the wider the film format a given movie was shot in, the wider the black bars above and below the active video area are going to appear...period. It was true with 4:3 TV sets, and still holds true with 16x9 displays.
Personally, I absolutely abhor TV channels that crop native aspect ratios to "fit the screen," even HD channels; it destroys the original intent of the movie directors' careful framing of their films, the ONLY exception being movies that were shot in Super35 (full aperture framing); these can be modified practically at will under the supervision of Directors for video mastering and subsequent transfers purposes.
Movies like T-2 and other Cameron's movies were shot in Super35 which for theatrical presentation were formatted in a bastard (as I call it being that is not true anamorphic lensing) "scope" format; these can be altered for video transfering without messing up the original framing intent.
True Lies is a good example of this; HBO had a new HD transfer of this movie done for them, which was aired in the 16x9 AR video format some time back--it looks absolutely gorgeous, and its framing suffers very little in the translation when compared to the "scope" version.
Oh, yes...as with SD widescreen transferred movies, the addition of 33% of more vertical lines of resolution also aids 16x9 transfers for after all black bars are ACTIVE video too! ;) Man, I wish HD was anamorphically "enhanced"!

Anyway, the most extreme widescreen movies to be encountered are those that were filmed in Ultra-Panavision; 1959's Ben-Hur, The Greatest Story Ever Told, The Allelujah Trail, The Fall of the Roman Empire, and Mutiny on the Bounty are examples of this (a fairly recent transmission of Ben-Hur by Cinemax finally gave this glorious widescreen Epic its overdue HD treatment, something that can be sampled to a lesser extent in the magnificent DVD box set that Warners put out not long ago. Can't hardly wait Ben-Hur is given the Blu Ray treatment too! Oh, well...HD video tapes of that transmission and 35mm IB Technicolor road show plus S-8mm prints of this movie will keep me at bay until that happens. :D But now looks like am going to need a KURO to view it with! :( )...

-THTSHappy to oblige! :)

You might also like to consider the following:

With a 16x9 (1:78:1) display movies shot in the "Academy Aspect Ratio" (1:34:1 but 4:3 or 1:33:1 on video) will normally show black bars to either side of the active image.

For films shot in Cinerama (a precious few, alas!) the AR would be 2:55:1...the very same AR Fox used to shoot their initial CinemaScope55 movies (The Robe, The King and I, et al) --black bars larger than "normal" scope films (35mm Panavision, CinemaScope, et al, 2:35:1 AR...subsequently 2:40:1 from the late 60s to the present) above and below the active image area will be displayed.

Spherical or "flat" 70mm (Todd-AO, Super-Panavision, et al) with an AR of 2:21:1 will show even smaller blacks bars.

"Flat" or spherical 35mm films (1:85:1 AR) will exhibit yet smaller bars...as will VistaVision, an 8-perf horizontal film format (movies like The Ten Commandments, The Buccaneer, Vertigo, West by Northwest, et al, were filmed in that superb 35mm optical format).

Movies that were filmed in the "flat" or spherical standard European format, which has a 1:66:1 AR, will show hardly any black bars.

And as stated in my post above, Ultra-Panavision (anamorphic Camera 65--70mm for practical purposes--2:76:1 AR) will display the most radical and dimensionally larger black bars of them all.

Super35, which is a wide open aperture 35mm film format, can be shown in just about any AR desired depending upon selected framing for both theatrical and video exhibitions, also stated in my previous post.

...and all video content shot in true HD (1:78:1 AR) will have no black bars to contend with, of course...

-THTS

If you know a film was transfered as "Anamorphic" then the correct aspect mode for a Sony GWIII LCD RPTV is "Full". In the same situation a Samsung HLN RPTV should have it's aspect mode set to "Wide" or "Wide (TV) depending on the input you are using. "Letterbox" would be set to "Zoom" on either one, and an old "4x3 Academy Ratio" film would be set to "Normal" on a Samsung.

The greatest benefit of anamorphic enhancement (not to be confused to be the same as the photographic anamorphic lensing process of film formats) for video applications is that 33% more VERTICAL lines of resolution are added back to the active image, which otherwise is resolution wasted by blacks bars...which are ACTIVE lines of resolution themselves.
This is something that even high-definition video SHOULD have been factored in at its inception for the very same reasons given above.

To sum up this little tirade, the greater the aspect ratio a given movie was photographed in, the greater the benefit afforded by anamorphic "enhancement" in terms of video reproduction...

-THTS

>>This is something that even high-definition video SHOULD have been factored in at its inception for the very same reasons given above.<<

Amen! Hi-Definition video should have an anamorphic mode for anything wider than 16x9 to maintain full vertical resolution. With Scope films the vertical resolution drops to only 700 or 800 lines (depending on exact AR) due to the letterbox bars and that creates a severe H/V inequality when compared to the horizontal resolution of 1920 pixels (with a 1125-line image - i.e. 1080p).

The other technical feature HD needs is "true" Constant Luminance performance - but that's another argument. :)

Amen! Hi-Definition video should have an anamorphic mode for anything wider than 16x9 to maintain full vertical resolution. With Scope films the vertical resolution drops to only 700 or 800 lines (depending on exact AR) due to the letterbox bars and that creates a severe H/V inequality when compared to the horizontal resolution of 1920 pixels (with a 1125-line image - i.e. 1080p).

The other technical feature HD needs is "true" Constant Luminance performance - but that's another argument. :)

Folks...he's absolutely right...do the math and see what would be gained by having anamorphically "enhanced" HD material! :eek:

I agree that Constant Luminance would be another real nice feature to have with HD content but heck, we're lucky if we even get TRUE HD transmissions 'cuz a lot of what is being passed as HD is anything but! :mad:
So for the time being we must rely on unenhanced optical (and tape) HD formats to obtain "the best that it can be"... :rolleyes:

-THTS

"Anamorphic" means 'different shape'... the wider image is horizontally compressed before recording, so it can be horizontally expanded on playback to full width. No effect on the vertical axis. You're still limited to the same number of pixels, but anamorphic has wide 4:3 pixels instead of square ones. The 'anamorphic' version of the film is output instead of the standard version when display type is set to 16:9 widescreen.

The anamorphic SD video enhancenment adds 33% of VERTICAL lines (or pixels depending on the display device being used) of resolution which otherwise is a percentage wasted in the reproduction of black bars above and below a given widescreen film; such bars are ACTIVE lines of resolution.

This should also apply to even HD movies because they also suffer the same problem as the wider the aspect ratio is, the lesser the vertical resolution becomes.
Had the powers-that-be factored-in such feature we would have greater resolution from all widescreen films transferred to HD video but, alas, that was not to be...

-THTS

It's been a long time since I posted here. The "black bar" questions still come up. ;)