Originally posted by mburnstein
This
http://www-132.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=-840&langId=-1&partNumber=9503DG5&storeId=1

or


http://www-132.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=-840&langId=-1&partNumber=9503DG3&storeId=1 You're talking about very expensive monitors that have to be driven by very expensive video cards. These other monitors are sub $2K and run off of one DVI connection versus the dual DVI connections of HB monitors.

yeah, I know :)
I'll be using the IBM for Teleradiology at home. The DG5 might be a good one with 48Hz refresh rate, but th DG3 with 21Hz refresh rate for QUXGA or 41Hz for wuxga causes judder. I wonder if some buffer can change the source fps to match that DG3 refresh rate?

Originally posted by mburnstein
yeah, I know :)
I'll be using the IBM for Teleradiology at home. The DG5 might be a good one with 48Hz refresh rate, but th DG3 with 21Hz refresh rate for QUXGA or 41Hz for wuxga causes judder. I wonder if some buffer can change the source fps to match that DG3 refresh rate? I know that the 1920x1200 monitors can be driven with reduced blankings to fit the maximum bandwidth of a single DVI connection. The pixel clock rate is adjusted to run at this reduced rate. Perhaps you can adjust your pixel clock rate to help control the "judders".

The reduced blinking mode is quite remarkable as I am driving my L2335 with only a docking station DVI-D output attached to my Dell D800 notebook with the 64MB Nvidia 4200GO. I have no problems with DVDs played with PowerDVD Full version 5 or any other Software DVD players. The whites and blacks are true even before I used my Eye-One spectrophotometer; right out of the FILTHY DIRTY box.

BTW, please be careful taking the L2335 out of the gigantic box, it's not designed for safe egress as the Apple Cinemas or the SGI 1600SW's. Makes sure you hold onto the base and not the screen itself, or you could dent the delicate plastic screen. That won't be pretty.





Originally posted by xortam
I know that the 1920x1200 monitors can be driven with reduced blankings to fit the maximum bandwidth of a single DVI connection. The pixel clock rate is adjusted to run at this reduced rate. Perhaps you can adjust your pixel clock rate to help control the "judders".

Mark,

Don't tempt me! I would love to see a complete 8 mega pixel RAW file off my 8MP D-SLR cameras under Photoshop CS for every frame without working always at 50%.

I bet the color of your IBM must ROCK!

Paul



Originally posted by mburnstein
This
http://www-132.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=-840&langId=-1&partNumber=9503DG5&storeId=1

or


http://www-132.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=-840&langId=-1&partNumber=9503DG3&storeId=1

Originally posted by xortam
I know that the 1920x1200 monitors can be driven with reduced blankings to fit the maximum bandwidth of a single DVI connection. The pixel clock rate is adjusted to run at this reduced rate. Perhaps you can adjust your pixel clock rate to help control the "judders".

Hi, is there a list of video cards' max dvi resolution?
most specs say 1280x1024, but it seems many still work at 1600x1200 or even higher?

thanks.

Originally posted by xortam
I know that the 1920x1200 monitors can be driven with reduced blankings to fit the maximum bandwidth of a single DVI connection. The pixel clock rate is adjusted to run at this reduced rate. Perhaps you can adjust your pixel clock rate to help control the "judders".

The IBM workstation I'm using has a Nvidia FX-1000 Quadro card with dual DVI connection to the IBM DG3 panel. That wy the 3840x2400 resolution is achieved from the card to the panel.

Try the manufacturers' own site for specs. If your card has 64MB of memory, more than likely you can run it at 1920x1200, even if you have to use another makers' drivers to achieve this resolution.

Paul


Originally posted by coconut
Hi, is there a list of video cards' max dvi resolution?
most specs say 1280x1024, but it seems many still work at 1600x1200 or even higher?

thanks.

Does anybody know if Samsung 243T DVI could be driven with 50 Hz
refresh rate instead of default 60 Hz? This can be tried with
Powerstrip.

I saw Mark's IBM monitor at a PC show a few years ago. They had it showing a hi-res aerial photo of the middle of Manhattan, and a large magnifying glass we could hold up to the screen to get a better detailed view. Really mind-blowing.
How many years from now will people be sneering at WUXGA. :)
Dave

Originally posted by coconut
Hi, is there a list of video cards' max dvi resolution?
most specs say 1280x1024, but it seems many still work at 1600x1200 or even higher?

thanks.

I'm using a lowly Radeon 7500 and getting 1920 x 1200 DVI @ 52 Hz on my 240T without any problem.

dcarl,

I also have a radeon 7500 card but I can't find the setting to run it at 52Hz. How are you doing it?

Currently, I'm running the l2335 at 1920x1200 at 60hz over DVI. I can see some small streaking of noise. At 52Hz, it should be prefect.

TIA,
Jason

Jason,
You should really be asking someone here who has the l2335, because what I found that works with the 240t might damage your l2335.

Anyway, when experimenting you might think about connecting both DVI and RGB (or another RGB monitor) to the video card, because I completely lost my DVI picture a few times.

Do you have powerstrip? If not, you should get it.

Please check to see if any of you can download this!

http://h200003.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/DriverDownload.jsp?locale=en_US&pnameOID=374666&taskId=135&prodTypeId=382087&prodSeriesId=374664&lang=en&cc=gb&swEnvOID=1093

Thanks!


Hoping this will end the white flashes with cheap video cards or docking stations.

Paul

dcarl, I downloaded powerstrip and was able to adjust the frequency using that. I just had to knock the frequency down a little. I'm running 1920x1200 at 59Hz over DVI without any picture quality issues that I can notice.

Paul, I was unable to download the HP driver.

A quick initial review of the l2335.

l2335 as a monitor:
As a monitor the picture quality is incredible. I haven't played many games or watched many DVDs with it, so I can't comment on ghosting, etc. I love the screen real estate. The 16x10 ratio is prefect. I have had other large monitors that I felt were too big. Mostly because of the height. I could see how gamers could be annoyed by the ratio. I'm not sure how many games support that resolution.

l2335 as a HDTV:
I am slightly disappointed with the HDTV quality but I'm comparing it to a CRT monitor. I have only viewed HDTV content from Comcast over the component inputs. There might be issues with the cabling, or the cable box(5100). When viewing SD tv via component, there are diagnol aliasing lines. Does anyone know what could be causing them? I have a feeling the scaler is causing the not-so glorious HD. I haven't tested the OTA HD via a computer card yet. So, stay tune for that.

L2335 Package:
Fairly good. Disappointed by the design on the component input area. That area is covered by a clip on cover. A soon to be lost cover.

L2335 Firmware:
I'm hoping for a firmware update. Disappointed that I can't select having black bars when running 16x9 content. The PIP works well.

Jaybomb ... where did you purchase your L2335? AFA HDTV, get a better signal. Your problems are probably all due to the cable signal.

I first ordered it from HP. It was backordered. It is lame that HP doesn't tell you if an item is backed order until you purchase it. So, I cancelled that order and bought it from eCost. I'm not a big fan of eCost though...

It doesn't work for me either. I get an error.

DanW

Thanks Jaybomb ... I'm still on backorder with HP.

Jaybomb - Any stuck or bad pixels on your L2335?

I haven't noticed any bad or stuck pixels. I haven't looked closely for them. Ignorance is bliss... I'll give it a look over tonight and report back.

Guys,

Why are we running the L2335 at anything other than 60hz? 60Hz is what HP rates the panel.

The fact that this new HP driver, version 1 cannot be downloaded just makes me mad!

As for bad pixels, do we really want to know? :-)

Paul

I have one stuck white pixel and one stuck red pixel on my 9.2 Megapixel IBM T221 panel. Seems two too many!!

Paul,
HP rates it for 1920x1200 60Hz via analog hd15.

I tried running it at 1920x1200 60Hz over DVI and I was getting picture quality issues. By lowering it to 59Hz, the picture quality issues went away. In the paperwork that HP sent with the monitor, it talks about reduced blanking for 1920x1200 DVI. I couldn't see where the driver for my video card supports reduce blanking. There was setting in the video card driver for support for high resolution monitors. It had no effect on the picture quality issues.

Jay,

I downloaded this v3.49 powerstrip from pcworld.com and cannot find where I can change my secondary display (L2335) from 60 to 59hz. I have some white flashes during startup and at other random times. I know I cannot change the Hz from within my Nvidia utilities of my Dell D800/Docking station setup.

Paul


Originally posted by Jaybomb
Paul,
HP rates it for 1920x1200 60Hz via analog hd15.

I tried running it at 1920x1200 60Hz over DVI and I was getting picture quality issues. By lowering it to 59Hz, the picture quality issues went away. In the paperwork that HP sent with the monitor, it talks about reduced blanking for 1920x1200 DVI. I couldn't see where the driver for my video card supports reduce blanking. There was setting in the video card driver for support for high resolution monitors. It had no effect on the picture quality issues.

Did you tried asking IBM to exchange it? 8K is a lot of money, even for these days.

I went through 3 Dell D800 to get a version with only 2 blue pixels at the left edge. I have 3 clustered dark pixels on my Apple Cinema that got progressively darker after I got it.

Paul

Originally posted by mburnstein
I have one stuck white pixel and one stuck red pixel on my 9.2 Megapixel IBM T221 panel. Seems two too many!!

Originally posted by Jaybomb
dcarl, I downloaded powerstrip and was able to adjust the frequency using that. I just had to knock the frequency down a little. I'm running 1920x1200 at 59Hz over DVI without any picture quality issues that I can notice.

There ya go.


l2335 as a HDTV:
I am slightly disappointed with the HDTV quality but I'm comparing it to a CRT monitor.

I was also disappointed how HD looked on My 240t, until I downloaded a demo program and some short demo clips from Dvico:

http://www.dvico.com/hdtv/download.asp

A high-speed connection helps. :)

One of those Fusionhd demos is totally eye-popping.

dcarl,

I downloaded the program and the first two demo files. I only get the audio and a black screen. I tried the playback window on both the L2335 (secondary monitor) as well as the main display. No luck. I looked for video card settings and could not find any, as I remembered there was a selection for video card during the install. Any ideas?

Paul



Originally posted by dcarl
There ya go.




I was also disappointed how HD looked on My 240t, until I downloaded a demo program and some short demo clips from Dvico:

http://www.dvico.com/hdtv/download.asp

A high-speed connection helps. :)

One of those Fusionhd demos is totally eye-popping.

Quick update... 59.?? Hz improved the quality but it is not perfect. I tried other values and haven't figured out the one that works the best. Disclaimer, adjust at your own risk. I'm not an expert on powerstrip...

I looked for stuck pixels last night. I have a stuck pixel that is about 4 inches from the left side and about 5 inches from the top. I have 2 separate stuck pixels about an inch from the edge. About a 1/3 of inch from the top of the screen there *appears* to be numerous subpixels that are stuck. There are so many of them that it might be something else causing them(I might be in denial but I don't want to make a claim that is inaccurate). I'm not an expert pixel tester.

Paul, in regards to powerstrip. From memory, there is a monitor configuration menu. At the top of that dialog box there is a way to select which monitor to configure. It is a dropdown box. Then you need to click a button on the lower left of that screen, which will bring up another dialog box where you can modify the timing.

Try 59.97

Jay,

Sorry about the bad pixels, you will have to go through the hassles of exchanging for another.

I finally did find the way to set the refresh rates. For the L2335, the horizontal is at 72.86hz and vertical is 59.03hz. It is great that this was confirmed by the L2335 OSD. So we know powerstrip works. I tried lower than 59 and lots of white flashes occurred.

I still get some white sparks at 59.03, but much less than at 60. I also set the Dell D800 main display at 58, no visible changes there.

But I coul't get the DVICO demo to work.

As for HDTV, the component feed Discovery-HD, HBO-HD, and PBS-HD looks really filmlike at 3 feet. I set the sharpness of the L2335 at 5 and brightness at 60, with contrast at 50%

Paul



Originally posted by Jaybomb
Quick update... 59.?? Hz improved the quality but it is not perfect. I tried other values and haven't figured out the one that works the best. Disclaimer, adjust at your own risk. I'm not an expert on powerstrip...

I looked for stuck pixels last night. I have a stuck pixel that is about 4 inches from the left side and about 5 inches from the top. I have 2 separate stuck pixels about an inch from the edge. About a 1/3 of inch from the top of the screen there *appears* to be numerous subpixels that are stuck. There are so many of them that it might be something else causing them(I might be in denial but I don't want to make a claim that is inaccurate). I'm not an expert pixel tester.

Paul, in regards to powerstrip. From memory, there is a monitor configuration menu. At the top of that dialog box there is a way to select which monitor to configure. It is a dropdown box. Then you need to click a button on the lower left of that screen, which will bring up another dialog box where you can modify the timing.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
dcarl,

I downloaded the program and the first two demo files. I only get the audio and a black screen. I tried the playback window on both the L2335 (secondary monitor) as well as the main display. No luck. I looked for video card settings and could not find any, as I remembered there was a selection for video card during the install. Any ideas?

Paul

Sorry it doesn't work. :mad:
No luck making changes in the FusionHD configuration toolbox/
videocard settings? Try one of the SD demos?

Keep trying- although the demo clips are very short, it can give you an idea just how good your monitor can be with HD.

BTW, using my 240T with the RCA DTC-100 and RGB connection, the picture is dull, soft, washed-out. Using it with the Voom STB with *DVI*, it looks excellent, almost as good as the FusionHD demo.

VOOM STB is not HDCP enabled?



Originally posted by dcarl
Sorry it doesn't work. :mad:
No luck making changes in the FusionHD configuration toolbox/
videocard settings? Try one of the SD demos?

Keep trying- although the demo clips are very short, it can give you an idea just how good your monitor can be with HD.

BTW, using my 240T with the RCA DTC-100 and RGB connection, the picture is dull, soft, washed-out. Using it with the Voom STB with *DVI*, it looks excellent, almost as good as the FusionHD demo.

My mistake was not selecting the "demo" fusion player. After selecting that, I got the Korean Babes! Quite a sight seeing true 1080i finally on my L2335.

Here is the take.

The 3D is very plasma like, and I was watching from under 2 feet.

As I select to a higher computer setting. Say Intel 2.4G chip + FSB800 with 8x AGP video, I got a lot more of those white flickering horizontal lines. At the lowest setting within configuration, I got next to no horizontal flashes.

I think this means I may need to run with a more powerful PC/Video card, or something else is wrong.

While the demo is great, the quality is about what I get with Discovery-HD, HBO-HD, and PBS-HD on TWC. The big deal is no stretching. A true kick ass 1080i at 1920x1080 with beautiful black top & bottoms.

Thanks!

Paul

Originally posted by dcarl
Sorry it doesn't work. :mad:
No luck making changes in the FusionHD configuration toolbox/
videocard settings? Try one of the SD demos?

Keep trying- although the demo clips are very short, it can give you an idea just how good your monitor can be with HD.

BTW, using my 240T with the RCA DTC-100 and RGB connection, the picture is dull, soft, washed-out. Using it with the Voom STB with *DVI*, it looks excellent, almost as good as the FusionHD demo.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
VOOM STB is not HDCP enabled?


Not yet, I guess. Not all channels anyway. :)

Look for the other short clip of a young woman and guy talking in a village somewhere. That's the best looking clip. (about 70 MB size)

Let's hope it never will be enabled, as once it is, the L2335 will not work for you.

Paul


Originally posted by dcarl
Not yet, I guess. Not all channels anyway.

see my edit Paul.

That was the 1st sample clip. The couple is gorgeous, indeed. YThe 2nd clip, with the 4 singers was very 3-dimensional. The shimmering of light off their pants was amazing. Not possible with regular TV.

I'll download the others when I have time.

Paul



Originally posted by dcarl
see my edit Paul.

Hi,

I have been looking for the LG L2323A [1].

I had initially wanted the Apple 23", but liked the extra flexibility of the LG.

However, I went out to buy it today. I live in Beijing, China. I found the LG2320A, but not the L2323(?).

What I did find, was that the LG displays retail at about 30,000RMB (over US$3,500), while the Apple display retails at just under 20000RMB (about US$2,400).

I did a web search for the 2323 and 2320, and the price looks about right (apart from a suspiciously low price from a store in Madeira).

Why would the Apple display be so much cheaper? Don't they use the same or similar glass?
Is there something else - perhaps all those extra connectors on the aux box?

So, I'm looking for something like Apple's Cinema at about the same price. I would like if it were to be more flexible (better stand and inputs), and want to use it for DVD movies from my computer and photoshop/imovie etc.

Advice?

Thanks in advance.

Max.

[1] from reading this thread, I probably wanted the LG L2323T

Max,

Interesting that you can post this from communist China! Welcome anyway.

The LG 2323 is the LG 2320 with a built in tuner, I think. I have seen the LG and the Apple Cinema. They are very different. The LG is brighter and has better color reproduction. If you are a heavy Photoshop user, you'll love the LG, for sure. You can also use your colorimeter or spectrometer to calibrate the LG to color match your PS work. The Apple also, but the color just looks better on the LG.

If you have read more recent postings here, you'll see that the focus is more on the HP L2335. This is actually built in China, ansd cost upwards of $1000 USD less in the States. The HP does not have an external switching device (a big minus!), it does not have the beauty of design as the LG or Apple, and the casing/bezel is made from cheaper ABS. BUT the picture is so fine! Brightest of the 3 discussed here. I have been using the HP for over a month with Photoshop CS 8.0 and am quite happy.

The HP also allows full usage of HDTV as mentioned in this thread.


Paul



Originally posted by dwater
Hi,

I have been looking for the LG L2323A [1].

I had initially wanted the Apple 23", but liked the extra flexibility of the LG.

However, I went out to buy it today. I live in Beijing, China. I found the LG2320A, but not the L2323(?).

What I did find, was that the LG displays retail at about 30,000RMB (over US$3,500), while the Apple display retails at just under 20000RMB (about US$2,400).

I did a web search for the 2323 and 2320, and the price looks about right (apart from a suspiciously low price from a store in Madeira).

Why would the Apple display be so much cheaper? Don't they use the same or similar glass?
Is there something else - perhaps all those extra connectors on the aux box?

So, I'm looking for something like Apple's Cinema at about the same price. I would like if it were to be more flexible (better stand and inputs), and want to use it for DVD movies from my computer and photoshop/imovie etc.

Advice?

Thanks in advance.

Max.

[1] from reading this thread, I probably wanted the LG L2323T

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
Max,

Interesting that you can post this from communist China! Welcome anyway.



Er, no comment :)



The LG 2323 is the LG 2320 with a built in tuner, I think. I have seen the LG and the Apple Cinema. They are very different. The LG is brighter and has better color reproduction. If you are a heavy Photoshop user, you'll love the LG, for sure. You can also use your colorimeter or spectrometer to calibrate the LG to color match your PS work. The Apple also, but the color just looks better on the LG.



Hmm, thanks for the summary. It does get confusing sometimes.

I am not sure it justifies the 50% extra in cost though. What do you think? Do you see this same price difference in the US?



If you have read more recent postings here, you'll see that the focus is more on the HP L2335.



Yes, I noticed. I used to work for SGI, own an Apple, and so purchasing an HP product doesn't really come naturally :)



This is actually built in China,



Well, this might be a huge plus. They seem to have a huge import tax, so it might well prove significantly cheaper :(

Perhaps the same explaination could me made for the difference in price between the LG and Apple displays.



and costs upwards of $1000 USD less in the States. The HP does not have an external switching device (a big minus!),



A big minus to have one, or to not have one? I read one comment that said that it was a pain to have that in some situations, and that it would be preferable to have the same connectors in the back.



it does not have the beauty of design as the LG or Apple, and the casing/bezel is made from cheaper ABS. BUT the picture is so fine! Brightest of the 3 discussed here. I have been using the HP for over a month with Photoshop CS 8.0 and am quite happy.

The HP also allows full usage of HDTV as mentioned in this thread.



Can it do 1920x1200 using DVI? I guess I can find this out for myself.

OK, I'll look into getting the HP (and try to live with the shame ;) ). I don't seem to see it on HP's Chinese web site (http://www.hp.com.cn/), though it's difficult to navigate.

Thanks!

Max.

Max,

1) The Apple is as low as $1600 in the States, the LG 2600. The LG is better, but perhaps not 1K better. You can get the 20" Dell 1600x1200 screen for 1K.

2) The external LG switcher is a plus, as many wires in the back of the panel will collect dust, hinder tilting and rotation of the screen, etc.

3) Yes on DVI-Digital at 1920x1200. Beautifully too!

4) Here is the US link, I couldn't navigate the simplified Chinese site either.

http://h18004.www1.hp.com/products/monitors/performance/l2335.html

Paul

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
Max,

1) The Apple is as low as $1600 in the States, the LG 2600. The LG is better, but perhaps not 1K better. You can get the 20" Dell 1600x1200 screen for 1K.

2) The external LG switcher is a plus, as many wires in the back of the panel will collect dust, hinder tilting and rotation of the screen, etc.

3) Yes on DVI-Digital at 1920x1200. Beautifully too!

4) Here is the US link, I couldn't navigate the simplified Chinese site either.

http://h18004.www1.hp.com/products/monitors/performance/l2335.html

Paul

Thanks very much. Plenty for me to be getting on with. I'll ask my Chinese friends to help me find one.

Thanks again.

Max.

G R E A T N E W S !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I got a new SA 3250HD box from TWC this morning!

The DVI-D out works with my HP L2335, check out these photos, click to see a high resolution version!

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4286944247&congratulation_page=Y

See the beautiful top and bottom bars? How lovely! True 1920x1080

See the OSD to proof it!

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid115/p5b2b61324f724bca75eb4543c80cb1ac/f8c1803f.jpg.orig.jpg


FINALLY, you can stretch to fill screen, or stretch to aspect ratio like here:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid115/pdcbe1615da03a825da3c1a16be2b3588/f8c18036.jpg.orig.jpg

See how perfect the PBS circle logo looks now!

I AM SO HAPPY!!!!!

BUT, will TWC-NYC take this DVI-D aaway after June 1, 2004 when HDCP is enabled?

I could be an unlucky bastard when that happens.

Word!

sweeet

With no stretching now, I have to say the L2335 HD 1080i images are on par with my Fujitsu 50". F A R better than my 64" Zenith HDTV with the 9" CRT guns.

Still excited beyond belief!



Originally posted by mburnstein
Word!

I have to see how the Sesam HDTV USB OTA tuner looks on my IBM T221 QUXGA monitor.

The key in your remark is OTA.

OTA HD content does not have HBO, SHO, Discover HD, ESPN-HD or Playboy HD. So this is why I am so excited over the working DVI-D into the HP L2335 DVI inputs. True human dimensions are SO B E A U T I F U L !!!!!

Paul

BTW, when you display 1920x1080 on your IBM mega panel, you'll either have to scale (AAAAGHHHHHH) or have a gorgeous picture with large black framing. Sort of like looking at the Mona Lisa with oversized frames.



Originally posted by mburnstein
I have to see how the Sesam HDTV USB OTA tuner looks on my IBM T221 QUXGA monitor.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
The key in your remark is OTA.

OTA HD content does not have HBO, SHO, Discover HD, ESPN-HD or Playboy HD. So this is why I am so excited over the working DVI-D into the HP L2335 DVI inputs. True human dimensions are SO B E A U T I F U L !!!!!

Paul

BTW, when you display 1920x1080 on your IBM mega panel, you'll either have to scale (AAAAGHHHHHH) or have a gorgeous picture with large black framing. Sort of like looking at the Mona Lisa with oversized frames.
(I have no DVI DSS box for HDTV,) and that OTA HDTV USB solution is the only way I can get a signal into that IBM PC anyway which has the dual DVI connection to the T221 panel. The panel doesn't have typical DVI inputs, so STB connections would be impossible. IBM has a special cable, like 59 pins at monitor, and two DVI plus USB into PC. But the Windows Media HD stuff looks great!

I cannot run those demos without white flashes as my computer and video card is not enough. Think a Pentium 4 at 3GHZ with a 128MB video card is a must.


Originally posted by mburnstein
( But the Windows Media HD stuff looks great!

Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor 3.20GHz
Microsoft Windows XP Professional
1/1
128MB NVIDIA Quadro FX 1000


1GB PC2700 DDR SDRAM

Exactly the point! You have the goods!

Originally posted by mburnstein
Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor 3.20GHz
Microsoft Windows XP Professional
1/1
128MB NVIDIA Quadro FX 1000


1GB PC2700 DDR SDRAM

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
!

4) Here is the US link, I couldn't navigate the simplified Chinese site either.

http://h18004.www1.hp.com/products/monitors/performance/l2335.html



I had a friend call HP, China on Saturday (they worked last Sat due to the holidays).

"Not available in China"

:(

Made in China, yes; available in China, no.

Tsk.

It seems that I won't be getting one of these lovely beasts. It seems to be a pattern, so I'll take the hint and not get one at all. This may not be a good time for me anyway.

;(

Max.

Would it be worthwhile to have a US friend or US store sent one to you?


Originally posted by dwater
I had a friend call HP, China on Saturday (they worked last Sat due to the holidays).

"Not available in China"

:(

Made in China, yes; available in China, no.


Max.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
Would it be worthwhile to have a US friend or US store sent one to you?

I don't think so. Customs would undoubtedly double the price :(

Max.

So after all this can I ask you to help summarize the HP L2335 Paul? It just doesn't like some DVI input sources and wants to stretch them to 1200 lines? Any stretch options in the menu are non-functional?

It has component, VGA, S-Video and DVI inputs.
Doesn't support HDCP, which may present problems going forward.
No built-in SDTV tuner.
Targeted at PC use.
16ms pixel response time.
Poor support because it's too new.
3 year warranty from HP.
$1000 less than other 1920x1200 LCD's.

And...? ...

The latest is this:

1) It is HDCP enabled, after all. So, with the proper DVI with HDCP, the L2335 will stretch even, to the proper apect ratios, while natively do the 1920x1080, sweet!

2) Everything you say are true, especially the $1000 in savings.

3) Also the contrast ratio is very high, and the blacks are very good. Not Fujitsu Plasma great. But the Fujitsus are 3 to 5 times more expensive.

Game players should stay away from these large displays even though the L2335 has 16ms response, as most games are just not meant for larger than 1024x768 playing. Unless you haqve some serious CPU and GPU inside your oversized computer tower that has sub-zero refreigeration.

Paul



Originally posted by The Jedi
So after all this can I ask you to help summarize the HP L2335 Paul? It just doesn't like some DVI input sources and wants to stretch them to 1200 lines? Any stretch options in the menu are non-functional?

It has component, VGA, S-Video and DVI inputs.
Doesn't support HDCP, which may present problems going forward.
No built-in SDTV tuner.
Targeted at PC use.
16ms pixel response time.
Poor support because it's too new.
3 year warranty from HP.
$1000 less than other 1920x1200 LCD's.

And...? ...

Are you sure the L2335 has HDCP? It's not stated in any HP docs that I could find.

It almost has to be, unless TWC is wrong to tell me that the 3250HD is HDCP enabled and protected.

Paul

PS I am watching Matrix Reloaded on it right now at 1920x1080, it is so
F V C K I N G awesome!

No pixelization, smearing, moire, nothing in that arena, just flim-like fluidity with utmost luminiscence! I am happy as a pig in S H I T.




Originally posted by wjchan
Are you sure the L2335 has HDCP? It's not stated in any HP docs that I could find.

Originally posted by The Jedi
And...? ...

...not available in China.

Max.

Hey Paul- thanks for the continued updates.

I'm just curious about what changed in your situation in that before you had to stretch a HD signal, but now you get a native 1920x1080 signal (ie now you have black bars)? Was in the new cable box, or the DVI connection?

PS I'm hoping that the latest gen of GPUs (or perhaps the next) will give me true 1920x1200 gaming goodness. Right now 1600x1200 is very, very doable (with AA and AF no less).

It's the new Scientific Atlanta 3250HD box with DVI and firewire outputs.

The DVI works perfectly with the L2335's DVI, and at 1920x1080.




Originally posted by orogogus
Hey Paul- thanks for the continued updates.

I'm just curious about what changed in your situation in that before you had to stretch a HD signal, but now you get a native 1920x1080 signal (ie now you have black bars)? Was in the new cable box, or the DVI connection?

PS I'm hoping that the latest gen of GPUs (or perhaps the next) will give me true 1920x1200 gaming goodness. Right now 1600x1200 is very, very doable (with AA and AF no less).

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
With no stretching now, I have to say the L2335 HD 1080i images are on par with my Fujitsu 50". F A R better than my 64" Zenith HDTV with the 9" CRT guns.

Still excited beyond belief!
Now Paul you know you should not be mis-speaking like this. We have all been trained in this forum to automatically respond that PLASMA IS BEST!

Seriously though my L2335 is on back order with no ETA.

Sorry! Forum demi-gods! PLASMA is better !! For that much money, they better be! And they are with DVD's.

Paul


Originally posted by softengr
Now Paul you know you should not be mis-speaking like this. We have all been trained in this forum to automatically respond that PLASMA IS BEST!

Seriously though my L2335 is on back order with no ETA.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
It almost has to be, unless TWC is wrong to tell me that the 3250HD is HDCP enabled and protected.

Paul


It's probably not enabled by TWC. It's not the first time that a cable company CSR has been wrong. HDCP is such a big deal that it's stupid for HP not to advertise it.

most games are just not meant for larger than 1024x768 playing

Huh? It's been years since I played a PC game at a resolution that low. Can you explain a bit more why the HP is not good for gaming? Did you mean the aspect ratio?

I have never seen any games with good looking 1600x1000 graphics. Even if some exist, you'll get right and left borders on the L2335. I simply do not like the look of that. A waste of screen real estate.

If you know of a great widescreen game with killer graphics up to 1920x1200, let us know.



Originally posted by khomotso
Huh? It's been years since I played a PC game at a resolution that low. Can you explain a bit more why the HP is not good for gaming? Did you mean the aspect ratio?

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
If you know of a great widescreen game with killer graphics up to 1920x1200, let us know.
Try Far Cry, it goes up to 1920x1200 and beyond. You'll need an X800XT/6800 Super Duper Mega Ultra Gold Pressed Latinum Edition, overclocked using cryo cooling and with three extra power supplies hangin from the side of your case to get the game to run smoothly at that resolution, but I'm guessing it'll look cool :)

If you're not joking, this "thing" will cost more than a Lexus; or for Europeans, a BMW.



Originally posted by Appelsap
Try Far Cry, it goes up to 1920x1200 and beyond. You'll need an X800XT/6800 Super Duper Mega Ultra Gold Pressed Latinum Edition, overclocked using cryo cooling and with three extra power supplies hangin from the side of your case to get the game to run smoothly at that resolution, but I'm guessing it'll look cool :)

I run Unreal Tournament 2004 at 1600x1200 and it's beautiful. It looks great at 1920x1200 also, though squished on my 22" crt - guess I better get an L2335! My year old $1800 Best Buy vpr Matrix system runs it easily with a 3.06 GHz P4, 1Gb ram, NVIDIA GeForce4 TI 4200 and 200 Gb Raid drive (2x100 Gb striped).

I can't get Far Cry Demo to run at 3840x2400. It crashes when it makes the call to setup the display. The Quadro FX 2000 only has 128M. Is that a way to get around the video memory limit?

Originally posted by khomotso
Huh? It's been years since I played a PC game at a resolution that low. Can you explain a bit more why the HP is not good for gaming? Did you mean the aspect ratio?

This is just a personal taste issue for him. There are plenty of games designed to run at 1600x1200. But, yes, you will have bars along the side with the HP display. Would it be better if most games offered 1900x1200? Sure, but unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world. If you are only using it for gaming than, in that case, I would agree with Paul that it would be wasteful. You would probably be happier with a 1600x1200 monitor.

DanW

widescreen resolution support is becoming more and more mainstream- especially in the console market (well, certainly moreso in the next generation). PC is still hit and miss, but I think you will see more and more support for it- lots more WS monitors out there and it's nice to have a bit more peripherial vision in games (especially first person games).

And the latest $500 GPUs should be able to push the pixels fine at 1920x1200. It'll just get better as the GPU generations keep coming out.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
If you're not joking, this "thing" will cost more than a Lexus; or for Europeans, a BMW.
Nah, not that much. It'll most likely be cheaper than my Volvo! Now first I have to convince the wife to get that display, then finish the book to make my publisher happy and earn some extra bucks to pay for the holy-crap-it's-fast graphics card... and some spoilers to make it look even faster. :D

While you're at it, HP now has a F2304 available. Looks like a nicer looking L2335. Could very well be the exact panel with more trimmings. Sort of like the LG L2320.

The thing with the latest GPU is that you really cannot mount it on a P4 at 2GHZ, but rather some monster P4 at 3.4GHZ or better yet, an Extreme Edition P4/3.4GHZ. These are serious heaters, literally!

Paul



Originally posted by Appelsap
Nah, not that much. It'll most likely be cheaper than my Volvo! Now first I have to convince the wife to get that display, then finish the book to make my publisher happy and earn some extra bucks to pay for the holy-crap-it's-fast graphics card... and some spoilers to make it look even faster. :D

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
While you're at it, HP now has a F2304 available. Looks like a nicer looking L2335. Could very well be the exact panel with more trimmings. ...That might be the reason why the L2335 is still on back-order. I didn't see the price on this monitor (can't order it on-line yet) but I did notice that there is a $150 rebate that works with that monitor. I downloaded the manual and will need to compare it with the L2335. I don't want the speakers but who knows when they'll ship the L2335 again. I need to get an update from them again concerning my order.

F2304 uses the same drivers as the L2335:

http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/softwareDownloadIndex?lc=en&cc=us&softwareitem=pv-18310-1

F2304 User Manual:

http://h10032.www1.hp.com/ctg/Manual/c00123770.pdf

EDIT: Please no price discussions or links other than MSRP or general comments about pricing in the industry....


Paul



Originally posted by xortam
That might be the reason why the L2335 is still on back-order. I didn't see the price on this monitor (can't order it on-line yet) but I did notice that there is a $150 rebate that works with that monitor. I downloaded the manual and will need to compare it with the L2335. I don't want the speakers but who knows when they'll ship the L2335 again. I need to get an update from them again concerning my order.

After looking at the HP website, the L2335 is in the Business Products division while the F2304 is in the Home Entertainment division. Probably the same hardware just marketed differently.

"It is HDCP enabled, after all. So, with the proper DVI with HDCP, the L2335 will stretch even, to the proper apect ratios, while natively do the 1920x1080, sweet!"

Well we all know that Samsung HD-931 DVD player requires HDCP, at least for it's high-quality scaled DVI output...

I guess my next question is what will it do to 720p input? Would my tuner/source have to do the converting to 1080i (or P), or would it intelligently scale it? You figure a PC source would scale to the monitor's size when a real 16:10 ratio resolution is used. But, the PDF manual only shows your typical PC resolutions as preset. I guess other resolutions would work, they're just not preset? One could perhaps even use PowerStrip to create custom resolutions (at least using the VGA input)?

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
If you're not joking, this "thing" will cost more than a Lexus; or for Europeans, a BMW.

They have Lexus in Europe[1] (at least they did when I was there last in '97)...prefer them to BMWs myself.

Max.

[1] If you call the UK part of Europe ;)

Lots of good discussions on very good monitors. :)

In terms of response time, don't let yourself mislead by the technical specs for TFT response times.
Theres is absolutely no prescribed measurement procedure for such attributes.

It strongly depends on the course of the response time over the colour gamut. Typically this is influenced by the panel type. IPS or S-IPS at 25ms is a whole different story than MVA or PVA at 25ms!

HP states that there are 600 L2335s on backorder and I may have mine shipped out by the end of the month. Its already been a month since I ordered. :(

Originally posted by The Jedi
"It is HDCP enabled, after all. So, with the proper DVI with HDCP, the L2335 will stretch even, to the proper apect ratios, while natively do the 1920x1080, sweet!"

Well we all know that Samsung HD-931 DVD player requires HDCP, at least for it's high-quality scaled DVI output...

I guess my next question is what will it do to 720p input? Would my tuner/source have to do the converting to 1080i (or P), or would it intelligently scale it? You figure a PC source would scale to the monitor's size when a real 16:10 ratio resolution is used. But, the PDF manual only shows your typical PC resolutions as preset. I guess other resolutions would work, they're just not preset? One could perhaps even use PowerStrip to create custom resolutions (at least using the VGA input)?

The f2304 User Manual states that it accepts 720p on the component inputs and 1152x720 on the DVI (Standard: CVT 083MA DVT 16:10).

I managed to get an L2335 shipped to me after 4 weeks on backorder. I hooked it up and the image looked great, except there was a stuck red pixel dead in the center. :( After a bit of arguing the vendor agreed to 1 exchange, so it's another month wait, hopefully this one will be good.

Ken,

On the L2335, if you feed through the component inputs, the panel will scale everything to full screen. If you feed the L2335 through the digital DVI input, you'll get true aspect ratios, exactly as you sent.

640x480 will be 640x480 with all around borders, and 1080i will have those top & bottom borders at 1920x1080.

I assume it is the same in the F2304.

Paul



Originally posted by Ken Beck
The f2304 User Manual states that it accepts 720p on the component inputs and 1152x720 on the DVI (Standard: CVT 083MA DVT 16:10).

There many debates in this section between HD and ED plasma, and majority of us agreed that if you are sttting beyond 8 feet from the display, we shouldn't notice much difference in PQ between HD and ED units.

I am in the market for a widescreen lcd computer monitor. That is between 22-26 inches. This monitor will be using 50% computer work, 25% for watching HD television program and 25% for watching DVD movies.

The HP l2335/F2304 that Paul Chiu described in this thread is very appealing and the price is just right for my budget, below $2000. I am new at this stuff. The question i have is if one sits 2-3 feet from the monitor, is there a noticeable difference PQ between a 1900 X 1200 vs 1600 X 1200 vs. 1280 x 768. I own a Pentium 4 2.8 G and an ATI 9800 all AIW any will be appreciated.

tammap,

If you wer only going to use it as a TV I'd say there isn't really a huge difference- the screen is already so small even at 2-3 feet the signal would be the limiting factor, and the scaling (if any) for a HD signal would probably be the thing that affect PQ the most.

That being said, if you are going to use it for computer work, the extra pixels are all about extra screen real-estate and are more than welcome. 1920x1200 kicks butt for having multiple window open at the same time, or working on really big spreadsheets. Of course, sometimes they are hard to read if your eyesight isn't so hot. :p

I hope for more discussion about Samsung 243T, are people getting them
in quantity at last?

And comparison between the L2335 and 243T is most welcomed: is anybody
out there who got a chance to compare them side by side?

Tanmap,

Currently, ther is NO plasma that can do 1080i !

Companies have been promising 1920x1080 plasma since 2 years ago, but I have not seen one in the exotic video shops as yet.

At 8 feet, you should know see that much difference between plasma when viewing DVD's, but you should see difference when viewing scaled down 1080i and 720P HD material. The difference is greater when comparing high end plasmas like a Pioneer Pro or the 50" Fujitsus. Even the newest Sony plasma will look better at 8 feet over cheaper units from the mass market shops.

Now, if you want true HDTV on a desktop, to be viewed a2 to 3 feet, the only choice is the HP L2335, and now the F2304. Others, like those 23 and 24" from Sony, LG, and Samsung have component inputs and DVI inputs, but most do not have the HDCP needed to receive HDTV cable box signals to display a true 1080i at 1920x1080. Most of these excellent 23/24" LCD will scale to 1920x1200 thus rendering a slightly taller actor or weird looking sports car, etc.

I purposely left out the Apple 23" Cinema Display because it is no longer as bright, as accurate, or as versatile as any of the other panels. I have an Apple Cinema Display.

Working with the L2335 at 2 feet, I have no problems with Windows. I typically have size 6 fonts in Excel and at 2 feet, they look sharp with no distortions.

Once you have a HDTV cable box; like the SA 3250HD connected via the DVI to the L2335. The 1080i material will look sharp and grainless even at 1.5 feet.

Hope this helps,

Paul



Originally posted by tammap
There many debates in this section between HD and ED plasma, and majority of us agreed that if you are sttting beyond 8 feet from the display, we shouldn't notice much difference in PQ between HD and ED units.

I am in the market for a widescreen lcd computer monitor. That is between 22-26 inches. This monitor will be using 50% computer work, 25% for watching HD television program and 25% for watching DVD movies.

The HP l2335/F2304 that Paul Chiu described in this thread is very appealing and the price is just right for my budget, below $2000. I am new at this stuff. The question i have is if one sits 2-3 feet from the monitor, is there a noticeable difference PQ between a 1900 X 1200 vs 1600 X 1200 vs. 1280 x 768. I own a Pentium 4 2.8 G and an ATI 9800 all AIW any will be appreciated.

Thank you all for your inputs.

Paul, did you mention that there is a rebate for L2335?

There is a $150 rebate in the US on the F2304, but that's a $2199 consumer line panel with speakers. No rebate that I know of on the $1699 L2335.

Paul


Originally posted by tammap
Thank you all for your inputs.

Paul, did you mention that there is a rebate for L2335?

How can there be a rebate on the F2304 if you can't even buy one from HP? HP doesn't know (online and small business phone reps) how anyone can buy it.

The phone rep 'knew' of the product but said absolutely no information will be available until the end of the month.

Are there any other monitors I should be looking at for 75% computer use (with some time spent playing FPS type games) with the remainder split between cable and DVD? I've been checking out the Aquos GV4U models, but their resolution and responce times seems a little low. I've also checked out getting a FP (the JVC SX21 looks to fit my needs perfectly) but I really don't like the idea of burning a bulb since this will get about 4-8 hours of use daily.

If the L2335 was a bit larger it'd be perfect, but I'm getting a bit tired of spending so many hours on this forum researching! Is there any place online that has this in stock and a 0 dead pixel policy?

Thanks,
Mike

Alas, sooner or later, you'll get a bad pixel. Unless the LCD technology changes, this will be the rule, not the exception. If you do not want bad pixels now or ever, you have to go CRT. There are a number of excellent 21" or larger models with super color and resolution. Some can even display 9 size fonts in Excel!

Since I have my LCD panels on about 19 hours everyday, some of my LCD's have develop bad pixels and perhaps have lost some brightness. This may be why I dislike my Apple Cinema Display when compared with the newer L2335's.

The 23" Apple panel is now about $1700 at some net sites. This may be due to the introduction of new panels shortly.

Paul



Originally posted by PlasmicMike
The phone rep 'knew' of the product but said absolutely no information will be available until the end of the month.

Are there any other monitors I should be looking at for 75% computer use (with some time spent playing FPS type games) with the remainder split between cable and DVD? I've been checking out the Aquos GV4U models, but their resolution and responce times seems a little low. I've also checked out getting a FP (the JVC SX21 looks to fit my needs perfectly) but I really don't like the idea of burning a bulb since this will get about 4-8 hours of use daily.

If the L2335 was a bit larger it'd be perfect, but I'm getting a bit tired of spending so many hours on this forum researching! Is there any place online that has this in stock and a 0 dead pixel policy?

Thanks,
Mike

Yeah, I definitely know I'll eventually get a few bad pixels, I just don't want one (or more) out of the box... for some reason that would bother me more than having them develop as a work on it - almost like a battle wound ;)

I'm in a place where I don't mind paying significantly more as long as I get more function. If I can have something that really replaces my bedroom TV and computer monitor, that'd be great. If I can do so with higher resolution and a larger screen, that's even better.

I'm going to start checking out all the online sites for getting this monitor. Dead pixel policy will probably guide my decision. Hopefully I'll have an update soon enough :)

On a side note - thank you very much Paul for all your posts in this thread. They have been VERY helpful.

-Mike

Originally posted by PlasmicMike
The phone rep 'knew' of the product but said absolutely no information will be available until the end of the month.

Are there any other monitors I should be looking at for 75% computer use (with some time spent playing FPS type games) with the remainder split between cable and DVD? I've been checking out the Aquos GV4U models, but their resolution and responce times seems a little low. I've also checked out getting a FP (the JVC SX21 looks to fit my needs perfectly) but I really don't like the idea of burning a bulb since this will get about 4-8 hours of use daily.

If the L2335 was a bit larger it'd be perfect, but I'm getting a bit tired of spending so many hours on this forum researching! Is there any place online that has this in stock and a 0 dead pixel policy?

Thanks,
Mike

You may have a tough time getting zero dead pixels. IBM does not have this policy and neither does HP as you can see from their policy:

User¡¯s Guide A¨C5
LCD Monitor Quality and Pixel Policy
for f2304 Monitor
The HP f2304 monitor uses high-precision technology
manufactured according to HP standards, to guarantee
trouble-free performance. Nevertheless, the display may
have cosmetic imperfections that appear as small bright or
dark spots. This is common to all LCD displays used in
products supplied by all vendors and is not specific to the
HP f2304 displays. These imperfections are caused by one
or more defective pixels or sub-pixels.
¡öA pixel consists of one red, one green, and one blue
sub-pixel.
¡öA defective whole pixel is always turned on (a bright
spot on a dark background), or it is always off (a dark
spot on a bright background). The first is the more visible
of the two.
¡öA defective sub-pixel (dot defect) is less visible than a
defective whole pixel and is small and only visible on a
specific background.
The HP display does not have more than:
¡ö5 total defects ¡ª combination of full pixel and sub-pixel
defects
¡ö3 defective bright sub-pixels
¡ö5 defective dark sub-pixels
¡öBright dots must have a 15 mm minimum separation
¡öBright dot to dim dot must have a 5mm minimum
separation
¡öDim dot to dim dot must have 5 mm minimum separation
To locate defective pixels, the monitor should be viewed
under normal operating conditions and in normal operating
mode at a supported resolution and refresh rate, from a
distance of approximately 16 inches (50 cm).
HP expects that, over time, the industry will continue to
improve its ability to produce displays with fewer cosmetic
imperfections and HP will adjust guidelines as improvements
are made.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
Alas, sooner or later, you'll get a bad pixel. Unless the LCD technology changes, this will be the rule, not the exception.

Hmm, I guess I've either been very lucky or the big LCD screens are more susceptible than the laptop screens I've had for the last ten years. I run my laptops at 12+ hrs/day and have never had a pixel go out. Of course 1920x1200 (2280000) is a lot more pixels than 1024x768 (786432) -- like about 293% more.

Ken,

You're very lucky. BTW, that's 6,912,000 pixels on the L2335, as it's 1920x1200xRGB for nearly 7 million sub-pixels.

Paul



Originally posted by Ken Beck
Hmm, I guess I've either been very lucky or the big LCD screens are more susceptible than the laptop screens I've had for the last ten years. I run my laptops at 12+ hrs/day and have never had a pixel go out. Of course 1920x1200 (2280000) is a lot more pixels than 1024x768 (786432) -- like about 293% more.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
Alas, sooner or later, you'll get a bad pixel.
Odd, I've used over a dozen LCDs over the past few years (many of them 20"+ units with 1600x1200 resolution) and all bad pixels have been out of the box. I have not seen any display develop bad pixels after the fact; it's something I would notice instantly. I got the impression that bad pixels are a manufacturing defect.

I did on my SGI 1600SW... out of the box, it had 1 but 3 years later... I have one new one.

I am interested in the HP F2304 because of the built-in speakers. (For my needs the reduced clutter is more important than sound quality.)

It appears from this thread that the similar HP L2335 can take the 1080i output from an HD set top box (HD TiVo in my case) and display it pixel for pixel when connected via the DVI input. It also appears to be HDCP compliant in spite of not being documented as such.

It has been speculated that the F2304 is just a consumer version of the L2335 and consequently should have the same capabilities.

But: the manual for the F2304 explicitly states that "Display modes 20, 22, and 24 are supported by the analog signal input only; Digital video does not support these modes." Display mode 22 is the only 1920x1080 listed.

Unlike the F2304, the L2335 lists a 1080i format although it is 1728X1080i.

So, finally a question: Does anyone have a F2304? If so, can you verify it works hooked up to an HDTV set top box via DVI?

The answer probably is: they aren't for sale yet.

So another question would be: any news on when they may be available?

Before this gets out of hand, we should get a second source to verify whether the L2335 can do HDCP.

Originally posted by wjchan
Before this gets out of hand, we should get a second source to verify whether the L2335 can do HDCP.

I agree, and kudos to Paul Chiu for his reviews, but a second confirmation would be nice.

I would like to see it verified that it can do HDCP and what known good support of HD resolutions on the DVI port. The documentation discusses HDTV only via the component port, and does not mention HDCP, at least in my reading of the brochure and the owner's manual that are posted on the HP site.

Given the way 5C is going, I am beginning to think it might be a good idea to look for HDCP on a new computer monitor, which tends to be an expensive and long lived component.

The point is moot if you can't get hold of one of these. :(

Originally posted by xortam
The point is moot if you can't get hold of one of these. :(

True for now, but it helps to know if you should stand in line.

Originally posted by martyj19
True for now, but it helps to know if you should stand in line. You can take my place in line. I've been standing here for over a month. I'm done.

Really!

I am still puzzled why HP has not posted the HDCP spec on the L2335, as I am still able to display 720P and 1080i perfectly via the DVI port on the Scientific Atlanta 3250HD box to our L2335's.

According to SA's product description, the DVI port is HDCP enabled:

http://www.sciatl.com/newscenter/releases/03Apr07-3.htm

I do know that my Apple Cinema Display (for sure without HDCP) cannot play anything with the DVI-D out of the 3250HD.

Later,

Paul



Originally posted by wjchan
Before this gets out of hand, we should get a second source to verify whether the L2335 can do HDCP.

I heard only some cable companies have enabled HDCP, and not necessarily on all channels.

The ACD has very few display modes (resolution/frequency combos).

Okay ... just ordered the L2335 from an on-line retailer and I should have the monitor in a few days. Now to tell HP to cancel my order ...

These are good points. When the setup worked over a week ago, I did note that maybe HDCP was not enabled by TWC-NYC, and I may again be disapointed once they are HDCP enabled. Your point on the ACD is right, and may explain why the Apple does not work at all.

I wonder if HDCP can be enabled remotely. If it can, then I will definitely be screwed once that happens. Or I need to drive everything off the computer or find some HDCP to non-HDCP display converter.

Paul


Originally posted by wjchan
I heard only some cable companies have enabled HDCP, and not necessarily on all channels.

The ACD has very few display modes (resolution/frequency combos).

PC Mall? I saw that they had 18 yesterday.



Originally posted by xortam
Okay ... just ordered the L2335 from an on-line retailer and I should have the monitor in a few days. Now to tell HP to cancel my order ...

I have an L2335 sitting right in front of me at me at my desk at work. I ordered one to use as a network monitoring station for my network alerts. It's a nice monitor, but I was disappointed that I couldn't run it at 1920x1200 when using the DVI input. It only supports this mode if the DVI signal uses "reduced blanking techniques", whatever that means.

I do have a Sony HD300 STB at home, but I don't feel like lugging this monitor home to test the HDCP compatibility.

Lug your HD300 and a Silver Sensor to work :) Show off HD to your co-workers. EDIT: Oh wait, OTA probably doesn't require HDCP.

BTW, there's nothing wrong with using reduced blanking interval. CRT monitors need time for the electron beam to move back up to the top once it reaches the bottom. That's what all that extra time is designed for. LCDs don't have that limit. So engineers shortened the "blankling" intervals to fit the scanning to within 165MHz which is the official limit of single-link DVI.

Originally posted by wjchan
... BTW, there's nothing wrong with using reduced blanking interval. CRT monitors need time for the electron beam to move back up to the top once it reaches the bottom. That's what all that extra time is designed for. LCDs don't have that limit. So engineers shortened the "blankling" intervals to fit the scanning to within 165MHz which is the official limit of single-link DVI. Exactly! :)

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
PC Mall? I saw that they had 18 yesterday. No. They didn't have any when I ordered last month. I didn't see them come up in my search this morning so I forgot to check back with them. I will get it cheaper and faster elsewhere.

Great, I hope you can help clear up the HDCP mystery after you get it.

Originally posted by xortam
No. They didn't have any when I ordered last month. I didn't see them come up in my search this morning so I forgot to check back with them. I will get it cheaper and faster elsewhere.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
Great, I hope you can help clear up the HDCP mystery after you get it. That would assume that I have HDCP signals available to me. I will have ATSC once I finish putting together my new HTPC (hopefully by the end of today). I'll have SDTV through BUD once I pickup the new IRD (scheduled for ordering on Jun-01) but no HD or HDCP there. I may get the accompanying HD box later but that also is older technology (no BUD HD boxes are even being built any longer) and it doesn't have digital video out. It may be some time before I need to worry about HDCP ... perhaps if I decide to use Voom if they succeed and after they launch a western bird. I can ask around with friends and family and see who might get HDCP signals. I'll let you know if I have any luck.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
These are good points. When the setup worked over a week ago, I did note that maybe HDCP was not enabled by TWC-NYC, and I may again be disapointed once they are HDCP enabled. Your point on the ACD is right, and may explain why the Apple does not work at all.

I wonder if HDCP can be enabled remotely. If it can, then I will definitely be screwed once that happens. Or I need to drive everything off the computer or find some HDCP to non-HDCP display converter.

Paul

There is a difference between having support for HDCP and actually having the copy protection turned on. If the copy protection were turned on, then only people with HDCP monitors would be able to see the programming. This would tick off a large number of viewers. I suspect the copy protection is not turned on and if it is, it would only be for certain channels -- pay-per-view being the most likely.

And you will never see a HDCP to non-HDCP converter. That would be very illegal.

Originally posted by Larry Hutchinson
There is a difference between having support for HDCP and actually having the copy protection turned on. If the copy protection were turned on, then only people with HDCP monitors would be able to see the programming. This would tick off a large number of viewers. I suspect the copy protection is not turned on and if it is, it would only be for certain channels -- pay-per-view being the most likely.

And you will never see a HDCP to non-HDCP converter. That would be very illegal.

I don't believe that this is correct. At least its not what is supposed to happen when HDCP is activated and the monitor doesn't support it. My understanding was that you could only view it at 480P, rather than in HD.

DanW

Just why are they protecting the DVI out anyway, as it doesn't output the audio portion, and there are no recorders with DVI inputs. Those PC software emulators like CapDVHS are not capable of a perfect digital copy anyway...

It seems that those who bought the HDTV's with DVI inputs hoping for a better HD picture just 2 years ago are screwed big time by the media companies and regulators. Perhaps lawyers should help these consumers to sue the media companies to get back their hard earned monies.

A bad situation not getting any better soon.




Originally posted by Larry Hutchinson
There is a difference between having support for HDCP and actually having the copy protection turned on. If the copy protection were turned on, then only people with HDCP monitors would be able to see the programming. This would tick off a large number of viewers. I suspect the copy protection is not turned on and if it is, it would only be for certain channels -- pay-per-view being the most likely.

And you will never see a HDCP to non-HDCP converter. That would be very illegal.

Just got back from the local Fry's.

They had a F2304, so I bought one.

I'll try hooking it up to my HD TiVo tonight and report my findings tomorrow.

Now I need a new video card.


I don't believe that this is correct. At least its not what is supposed to happen when HDCP is activated and the monitor doesn't support it. My understanding was that you could only view it at 480P, rather than in HD.

I know that is true of the analog out -- when HDCP present on a box and the content is copy protected, then the analog out is restricted to 480P. Don't know what happens on the digital side but downrezing is only a bit better than no picture (exaggeration, I know.)

Larry,

Check this out for us:

1) Look in the back for the place of assembly.

2) See if component inputs of any kind is automatically scaled to full screen.
Press front OSD to see if component HD 1080i input is scaled to 1804x1015.

3) See if DVI 1080i input is natively presented. On the L2335 with DVI 1080i and 720P, the borders are presented correctly.

4) Compare the S-Video input to a scaled component HD input.

5) Verify for HDCP is possible.

Thanks! And Enjoy the F2304!

Paul


Originally posted by Larry Hutchinson
Just got back from the local Fry's.

They had a F2304, so I bought one.

I'll try hooking it up to my HD TiVo tonight and report my findings tomorrow.

Now I need a new video card.




I know that is true of the analog out -- when HDCP present on a box and the content is copy protected, then the analog out is restricted to 480P. Don't know what happens on the digital side but downrezing is only a bit better than no picture (exaggeration, I know.)

Ok, you know you are addicted to this stuff when you can't even wait until the next day to report.

HDMI from HD TiVo works fine with TiVo's HDMI->DVI cable.

Using setup menu, can choose 1:1 and get black borders top and bottom.

Using component inputs, get black borders on all sides with no way to adjust that I could find.

Don't know if HDCP copy protection works. No problem with HBO Sopranos but it may just be that copy protection is not turned on. That would be my bet.

Haven't tried S-Video yet.

With not particularly fast action, motion blur is noticeable.

Edit: The box says "product of China." (Like what isn't.)

The box had a sticker that says "16 ms response time."

Originally posted by Larry Hutchinson
... With not particularly fast action, motion blur is noticeable. ...Is that over DVI? Paul said there was no blur/ghosting. ...
Originally posted by Paul Chiu
... The L2335 has no problems with any of the fast computer sequences, any of the light saber fights, or the creature battles. ...

Larry,

You're an addict just like everyone here! Are you enjoying the picture quality? How about that crispness of Discovery-HD and PBS-HD. It's really amazing at 3 feet. Wait and watch Leno in native 1080i tonight! (Unfortunately, Tom Arnold is the quest). Wait for Cameron Diaz (with her lose fitting clothes!) on the 25th...

Back to F2304. To truly test for blurs and motion abilities, you have to eliminate your tuner. So you need to use the F2304 as a computer monitor with a high powered card. Or use CapDVHS emulator to record a portion from your HDTV tuner via the 1394, then playback with WinDVD or VLC.

I have seen white background jiggles, motion blurs, and other minor digital artifacts on my L2335's when connected directly to the HDTV Cable box (3250HD). These are mostly in high contrast scenes, like black hair on white backgrounds. Once I recorded these with 1394, the playback of the downloaded portion on hard disk has zero artifacts. I reported this to you all a week ago!


Cheers,
Paul




Originally posted by Larry Hutchinson
Ok, you know you are addicted to this stuff when you can't even wait until the next day to report.

HDMI from HD TiVo works fine with TiVo's HDMI->DVI cable.

Using setup menu, can choose 1:1 and get black borders top and bottom.

Using component inputs, get black borders on all sides with no way to adjust that I could find.

Don't know if HDCP copy protection works. No problem with HBO Sopranos but it may just be that copy protection is not turned on. That would be my bet.

Haven't tried S-Video yet.

With not particularly fast action, motion blur is noticeable.

Edit: The box says "product of China." (Like what isn't.)

The box had a sticker that says "16 ms response time."

What's your theory that STB introduces motion blur in the LCD?

The only diff I can think of is the MPEG decoder. But that should cause the LCD to blur.

Don't understand your question.

Originally posted by wjchan
What's your theory that STB introduces motion blur in the LCD?

The only diff I can think of is the MPEG decoder. But that should cause the LCD to blur.

If there's motion blur issue with the LCD, why would it happen only with the STB and not your PC? Discuss :)

Phrase is differently, why do you think your PC eliminates the motion blur problem inherent in the LCD?

I played with the f2304 this evening at Fry's. I dragged an alert box about very rapidly on the screen and I didn't notice any ghosting. I'm impressed with what little I was able to display and I'm really looking forward to receiving the L2335 this week ... finally.

Originally posted by Larry Hutchinson

HDMI from HD TiVo works fine with TiVo's HDMI->DVI cable.

Don't know if HDCP copy protection works. No problem with HBO Sopranos but it may just be that copy protection is not turned on. That would be my bet.


Supposedly DirecTV Channel 201 is HDCP required. Give that a try.

--wilson

Originally posted by wjchan
Supposedly DirecTV Channel 201 is HDCP required. Give that a try.

--wilson

And the result is (drum roll please) : Viewing is not permitted using the Recorder's HDMI output. Try another TV input.

On the subject of motion blur, I think it is not really motion blur. Rather I think it is deinterlace artifacts. It is not that bad but whatever it is, it is definitely not visible on my analog RPTV.

The S-Video input gives a 640x480 inset with no obvious way to expand.

As I said before, the component inputs result in black bars on all sides. Turns out this is due to clipping the picture. I've taken some pictures which I will now try to figure out how to post.

Originally posted by Larry Hutchinson
...

The S-Video input gives a 640x480 inset with no obvious way to expand.

As I said before, the component inputs result in black bars on all sides. Turns out this is due to clipping the picture. I've taken some pictures which I will now try to figure out how to post.

I'm wondering if you tried the OSD menu:
Image Control > Custom Scaling > Fill to Screen or Fill to Aspect Ratio?

Larry,

By "recorder", do you mean the F2304 cannot show HDCP enabled stuff?


Originally posted by Larry Hutchinson
And the result is (drum roll please) : Viewing is not permitted using the Recorder's HDMI output. Try another TV input.

Originally posted by Ken Beck
I'm wondering if you tried the OSD menu:
Image Control > Custom Scaling > Fill to Screen or Fill to Aspect Ratio?

None of the items in Custom Scaling could be selected except exit.

This with S-Video and, if memory serves, with component HD.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
Larry,

By "recorder", do you mean the F2304 cannot show HDCP enabled stuff?

Correct. The "recorder" is the TiVo and it refused to send protected HDCP to the F2304.

Well, I guess that "pipe dream" just burst. We'll be screwed by the FCC/Media Mafia once they download the software and enabling our DVI's.

I do hope that never happens......




Originally posted by Larry Hutchinson
Correct. The "recorder" is the TiVo and it refused to send protected HDCP to the F2304.

It will happen on pay channels, just a matter of time. Write your local representative. :(

Premium or not, they have no rights to enable any. As far as we know, we pay the cable companies for the line, for the boxes, and for the programming. When we bought those HDTV with the DVI's, we paid for the rights to use the technology. We entrusted these politicos who we voted for to represent us on Capital Hill, and it seems they are more than happy to side with corporate America and S C R E W us.



Originally posted by orogogus
It will happen on pay channels, just a matter of time. Write your local representative. :(

Blame the MPAA. The guys that actually create the content want to make sure it doesn't get ripped off in a perfect, digital format ala what peer to peer and Napster did to the RIAA. You can argue about the financial impact of piracy, but it's something the movie industry is deathly afraid of, and a big reason for the hold-up of any HD-DVD format- figuring out the DRM. Bandwidth will eventually be at the point where it's feasible to trade HD movies like MP3s. Thus, HDCP (and it's DRM ilk like the broadcast flag). Same idea behind why you can't get digital audio outs for SACD and DVD-A in non-proprietary formats (firewire w/ D-VHS is about as close as it comes, and there isn't exactly a great multitude of titles for D-VHS).

Not only that- but the % of people that will not have HDCP compliant displays in the TV world when the switch really does begin in earnest will be comparitively small, so pissing them off is of little consequence to the TV/entertainment industry.

And incidentally, I was totally serious when I said to contact your local representative about preserving copyright for legitamate use. I wish we could do something like Canada and put a sur-charge on things to deal with the piracy issue and leave it at that.

O,

I took what you said seriously, but unfortunately, both party representatives are pro encrytion. So, like you said, we are too small a group to have any say.

Although I see the danger for the industry, there aren't any DVI recorders, and no DVI capture devices on the PC. Why they are attacking this "video only" connection is strange. Then again, the industry is so F V C K E D up they have no long term vision, just short term survival reactions.




Originally posted by orogogus
And incidentally, I was totally serious when I said to contact your local representative about preserving copyright for legitamate use. I wish we could do something like Canada and put a sur-charge on things to deal with the piracy issue and leave it at that.

There was no consumer VCR when NTSC came out. The audio portion is already easily recordable.

Content is going in the direction of software--all "high-value" content will be copy protected. While I have no problem with CP per se, the way it's playing out right now is very worrisome. It seems all these licensing issues are stifling innovation.

There's no technical reason why they can't put a HDCP receiver in the L2335. The cost difference is $6 in hardware and $0.10 in encryption key at the most. Testers are readily available (tune to Ch201 :))

Do you notice none of the panels from computer makers are HDCP-compliant? Even Samsung's 243T has no HDCP and their 241MP has no DVI/HDMI. I smell a foul play where the content industry is placing pressure on the hardware makers to get them to adopt copy protection in PCs.

I posted a thread with some photos of the F2304 being driven from an HD TiVo here:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=176073

What makes no sense is this:

1) Bigger LCD panels from Sony and others are DVI-HDCP enabled. Some over 32" LCD sets are now advertised to have HDCP DVI's, but they are only good for 720P and none have enough resolution for 1080i. This is strange, as it should be easier to make 1920x1080 for a 32" set than to make 1920x1080 in a 23" set.

2) What are they protecting anyway in a monitor only device? Are they afraid that we will retrofit our LCD panels with cables and electronics so we can record off the connections? This is stupid. If they cannot distinguish the difference between a view only device and a recording device, then the media companies deserve to lose money every other quarter.

3) They are making news in that 1920x1080 40" LCD and 60" plasmas are coming out shortly. What's the big deal, as we have 23" LCD panels that does that now. Even notebook 15.4" screens can do 1920x1200. The industry truly believe that WE ARE STUPID.


Paul





Originally posted by wjchan
There was no consumer VCR when NTSC came out. The audio portion is already easily recordable.

Content is going in the direction of software--all "high-value" content will be copy protected. While I have no problem with CP per se, the way it's playing out right now is very worrisome. It seems all these licensing issues are stifling innovation.

There's no technical reason why they can't put a HDCP receiver in the L2335. The cost difference is $6 in hardware and $0.10 in encryption key at the most. Testers are readily available (tune to Ch201 :))

Do you notice none of the panels from computer makers are HDCP-compliant? Even Samsung's 243T has no HDCP and their 241MP has no DVI/HDMI. I smell a foul play where the content industry is placing pressure on the hardware makers to get them to adopt copy protection in PCs.

Larry,

Thanks for the effort. Enjoy the use of the F2304 as a HDTV monitor before the industry S C R E W us by enabling the HDCP switch!

Here are photos I posted a week ago.

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4286944247






Originally posted by Larry Hutchinson
I posted a thread with some photos of the F2304 being driven from an HD TiVo here:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=176073

I bought the L2335 excepting that it would get tripped up by HDCP eventually. Its foolish to think that you'll be able to get a digital display today that will be compatible with copy protections unless its advertised to support HDCP. It was a nice pipe dream to hope the lack of HDCP mention was an oversight on the L2335 and f2304 but I would have been surprised if that turned out to be the case.

AFA de-interlacing artifacts ... I always planned on scaling/de-interlacing on the HTPC to native or displaying OAR so the PQ is in my hands. BUD NTSC and SD DTV signals will be a great source of signals and I'll have pure digital with my DVI equipped ATSC tuner. The rest is up to the 2/3D card and its rendering quality. I expect great things ...

After you completed your setup, please DO let us know the hardware list!
(Sounds like you have a kick A S S plan!)
Of course, your stuff might not be locally feasible as our state & local govt S C R E W us each on a personal level.

When are you getting the screens?

Paul


Originally posted by xortam
I bought the L2335 excepting that it would get tripped up by HDCP eventually. Its foolish to think that you'll be able to get a digital display today that will be compatible with copy protections unless its advertised to support HDCP. It was a nice pipe dream to hope the lack of HDCP mention was an oversight on the L2335 and f2304 but I would have been surprised if that turned out to be the case.

AFA de-interlacing artifacts ... I always planned on scaling/de-interlacing on the HTPC to native or displaying OAR so the PQ is in my hands. BUD NTSC and SD DTV signals will be a great source of signals and I'll have pure digital with my DVI equipped ATSC tuner. The rest is up to the 2/3D card and its rendering quality. I expect great things ...

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
What makes no sense is this:
1) Bigger LCD panels from Sony and others are DVI-HDCP enabled. Some over 32" LCD sets are now advertised to have HDCP DVI's, but they are only good for 720P and none have enough resolution for 1080i. This is strange, as it should be easier to make 1920x1080 for a 32" set than to make 1920x1080 in a 23" set.


First, computer monitors are different beasts than TV. Second, it is more difficult to make bigger fast-switching LCD cell than smaller, slower one.



2) What are they protecting anyway in a monitor only device? Are they afraid that we will retrofit our LCD panels with cables and electronics so we can record off the connections? This is stupid. If they cannot distinguish the difference between a view only device and a recording device, then the media companies deserve to lose money every other quarter.



Its definitely possibility for digital recording which is at stake.



3) They are making news in that 1920x1080 40" LCD and 60" plasmas are coming out shortly. What's the big deal, as we have 23" LCD panels that does that now. Even notebook 15.4" screens can do 1920x1200. The industry truly believe that WE ARE STUPID.


No, no. It is very difficult to make bigger LCD cells with SHORT switching time. This problem is getting solved and indeed 40+" LCD panels are coming shortly.

Thanks, I thought all along that it was not hard to make bigger LCD panels with 1920x1080 than smaller ones; all things being equal.

Is this because each of the larger panel's pixels are actually a group of smaller transistors? Thus a 60" LCD panel at 1920x1080 might have many more sub-pixels than 1920x1080x3(RGB) ?

Interesting stuff you presented, irkuck!

Paul




Originally posted by irkuck
No, no. It is very difficult to make bigger LCD cells with SHORT switching time. This problem is getting solved and indeed 40+" LCD panels are coming shortly.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
Thanks, I thought all along that it was not hard to make bigger LCD panels with 1920x1080 than smaller ones; all things being equal.
Is this because each of the larger panel's pixels are actually a group of smaller transistors? Thus a 60" LCD panel at 1920x1080 might have many more sub-pixels than 1920x1080x3(RGB) ?
Interesting stuff you presented, irkuck!
Paul

Thanks, Paul :D

Now, the number of transistors on all 1920x1080 panels will be
always the same. What is depending on size is this Liquid Crystal
cell size. In the cell orientation of molecules is controlled
by voltage applied to transistor. The problem is in fast switching
of orientation. The bigger the cell the more "lazy" it tends to be.
This is not a problem in pocket calculators but in TV the switching
should in the 16 ms range and this was big problem to overcome.
If you look at computer monitors specs only the very latest models
are in his range.

There is curious dichotomy in the LCD vs. PDP. In PDP it is very easy to make bigger pixels, the bigger the easier. But it is difficult to put more pixels.
In LCD is opposite: smaller pixels are easier, the pixel number is no problem.
This is exemplified by the record IBM LCD display: 3840x2160 (4x HDTV area!)
at 22" which means pixels have 4x smaller area than usual.

irkuck, what do you base your claim of LCD pixel size vs response time on? Do you have any references? I'd think that larger the pixel cell, the higher the electric field you can apply to it. Balancing that with more LC material, I'd guess that the response time stays constant. Any real EE/Physicists here?

I think the reason for the lack of high res large LCD panel is due to defect density. Same reason why you can't get huge 90nm-transistor die. Huge 2um-transistor die could be easily achieved with current technology I'd think.

The IBM monitor is 3840x2400, btw. The published response time of the T221 is 50ms which is fairly typical of its generation. It's not faster because the cells are 4X smaller.

Good Stuff irkuck,

Now, if you can tell me how to get a 1394 to DVI-I converter.

Paul




Originally posted by irkuck
Thanks, Paul :D

Now, the number of transistors on all 1920x1080 panels will be
always the same. What is depending on size is this Liquid Crystal
cell size. In the cell orientation of molecules is controlled
by voltage applied to transistor. The problem is in fast switching
of orientation. The bigger the cell the more "lazy" it tends to be.
This is not a problem in pocket calculators but in TV the switching
should in the 16 ms range and this was big problem to overcome.
If you look at computer monitors specs only the very latest models
are in his range.

There is curious dichotomy in the LCD vs. PDP. In PDP it is very easy to make bigger pixels, the bigger the easier. But it is difficult to put more pixels.
In LCD is opposite: smaller pixels are easier, the pixel number is no problem.
This is exemplified by the record IBM LCD display: 3840x2160 (4x HDTV area!)
at 22" which means pixels have 4x smaller area than usual.

Originally posted by wjchan
irkuck, what do you base your claim of LCD pixel size vs response time on? Do you have any references? I'd think that larger the pixel cell, the higher the electric field you can apply to it. Balancing that with more LC material, I'd guess that the response time stays constant. Any real EE/Physicists here?
I think the reason for the lack of high res large LCD panel is due to defect density. Same reason why you can't get huge 90nm-transistor die. Huge 2um-transistor die could be easily achieved with current technology I'd think.
The IBM monitor is 3840x2400, btw. The published response time of the T221 is 50ms which is fairly typical of its generation. It's not faster because the cells are 4X smaller.

I do not have scientific basis for the claim size vs. resp. time.

Now regarding rhe resolution vs. defect problem I do not think it
is an issue here. And that is because we are not scaling down features.
Quite opposite, the features are blown up! So there is no problem
with resolution, you get easily today 1920x1200 and even 3840x2400
in 20+" displays. Just blowing up the LCD cells 3-4X would give you
dinoplays. What we will see now is technology in which cells are
blown up 2x so displays are in the 45+" range. When next generation
lines will come, somebody should start blowing up 3x and maybe even 4x
the size.

Speed is a long standing problem in LCD but it is not so that smaller
cells are inherently faster. There are more factors there, IBM display
was made with no regard for speed as it is not important in their apps.

Originally posted by irkuck
I do not have scientific basis for the claim size vs. resp. time.

Now regarding rhe resolution vs. defect problem I do not think it
is an issue here. And that is because we are not scaling down features.
Quite opposite, the features are blown up! So there is no problem
with resolution, you get easily today 1920x1200 and even 3840x2400
in 20+" displays. Just blowing up the LCD cells 3-4X would give you
dinoplays. What we will see now is technology in which cells are
blown up 2x so displays are in the 45+" range. When next generation
lines will come, somebody should start blowing up 3x and maybe even 4x
the size.

Defect density of the glass is absolutely a problem. Assume a fixed defect density, the chance of a large cell being damaged (i.e. bad pixel) is smaller compared to a small cell.

Speed is a long standing problem in LCD but it is not so that smaller
cells are inherently faster. There are more factors there, IBM display
was made with no regard for speed as it is not important in their apps.

I wish you would back up all your claims/statements with some references or at least a half-way scientific explanation. You seem to pull things out of the sky.

EDIT: Here's a paper on the T221. Response time was absolutely a consideration. http://www.k-ids.or.kr/science/idmc/DATA/DATA/11.1.PDF

All right, Mr Chan & Kuck,

Let's not throw mud at each other and bring this great forum to the level of the S H I T that's overflowing elsewhere on the web.

I have to admit that I, while having a BSEE years ago, have no knowledge of the current LCD techologies. I merely love watching them and have enjoyed their features for many years. If I were still working in the defense industry (which I quit back in 1989), I may have kept up on the lingo and theories, but who can.

Most of the folks here are users! I merely wants to know about HDCP capability or lack of in the L2335. The ability to convert 1394 into DVI, the reason why there are visual artifacts going in some paths and not others. Yeah, layman questions and issues, indeed.

A lot of the stuff you guys mention are fabulously interesting but complicated. A lot of us merely want answers. We want simple directions to get a better HDTV picture with the stuff we already own or want to have.

Let's get to it!

Paul




Originally posted by wjchan
Defect density of the glass is absolutely a problem. Assume a fixed defect density, the chance of a large cell being damaged (i.e. bad pixel) is smaller compared to a small cell.



I wish you would back up all your claims/statements with some references or at least a half-way scientific explanation. You seem to pull things out of the sky.

EDIT: Here's a paper on the T221. Response time was absolutely a consideration. http://www.k-ids.or.kr/science/idmc/DATA/DATA/11.1.PDF

So this HP 2335 panel looks to be the one to get (and it is in high demand and low supply). Or is the LG that you have Paul the same thing just more expensive?
If the LG that you have paul is the same thing, could you PM me where you bought it from and how much?
I think a 23" LCD with 1900x1200 resolution that has component, svideo and DVI inputs would be just the thing I need while I wait for 1080p plasma panels to become realistic and then affordable ;)

yup we just got the HP 23" into the compusa i work at and its beautiful. We hooked a a faroudja dvd player to it to demo to customers and it looks amazing. We hopefully will have it hooked up to our hd signal sometime this week to test it out. Nice tv/monitor!

What faroudja DVD player?

How are you getting around the internal scaling of 1080i material into the 1920x1200?



Originally posted by RelDudeGOP
yup we just got the HP 23" into the compusa i work at and its beautiful. We hooked a a faroudja dvd player to it to demo to customers and it looks amazing. We hopefully will have it hooked up to our hd signal sometime this week to test it out. Nice tv/monitor!

we have the pioneer dvd recorder/tivo that uses the faroudja chip inside apparently. The LCD has svideo, component and dvi and we have it hooked up via component. I wasn't aware of any scaling or anything thats going on.

The L12335 will scale any component inputs from 1920x1080 (1080i), or other NTSC formats into 1920x1200. For certain DVDs, you may have not notice the "stretch", but you will on HDTV broadcasts.

You do not get any scaling if you have a DVI-I source.

Read my earlier posts here on the perils of discovery of this fine panel!

Paul



Originally posted by RelDudeGOP
we have the pioneer dvd recorder/tivo that uses the faroudja chip inside apparently. The LCD has svideo, component and dvi and we have it hooked up via component. I wasn't aware of any scaling or anything thats going on.

I just ordered the F2304. This model has the speakers built in on the sides. I ordered direct from HP. Comes with a $100 rebate

I currently have a Sharp 30" LCD and a 42" plasma to compare it to.
I cant wait to see full 1080I. Should look impressive.

I want to thank everyone for posting all this excitting info but because of it I just spent another chunk of money:)

Alan,

Since you are lucky enough to get inHD and HDnet with TWC in Rochester. You also have that working 3250HD box. Add DVI to the F2304, you will go NUTS watching those prime time shows on CBS and ABC. They are gorgeous. Even NBC's crappy HD shows are excellent.

1080i at 1920x1080 on the 23" is better than anything I have yet seen. Only the biggest Fujitsu (from a distance) can rival th2 F2304/L2335 from 2-3 feet.

Have fun!

Paul


Originally posted by Alan Gouger
I just ordered the F2304. This model has the speakers built in on the sides. I ordered direct from HP. Comes with a $100 rebate

I currently have a Sharp 30" LCD and a 42" plasma to compare it to.
I cant wait to see full 1080I. Should look impressive.

I want to thank everyone for posting all this excitting info but because of it I just spent another chunk of money:)

Hi Paul

Now Im really looking forward to getting this:)

I may be returning my F2304 to Fry's.

It is a combination of the improper display of 1080i via DVI as evidenced by the photos I posted in the TiVo forum..
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=176073
... along with my inability to get the monitor to work in 1920x1200 mode on my PC with a somewhat old video card (ELSA Gladiac GTX) when booting into WinME or Win2K (WinXP is fine.)

Now I should point out that as far as I can tell, HP does not claim the monitor can run 1080i via DVI. It just turns out that that it does but then (apparently) gets the even and odd lines reversed.

Larry

Does it display 1080I ok if using the component input?

I have a 15 day return policy on this so if Im not happy I can return it.
I should have done more research. I wish I saw your post sooner.

Thanks!

Larry,

It's unfortunate you had a bad F2304. As I have mentioned here to you, we had no problem with the DVI-I on the L2335, and we have tried a few units.

I posted this link earlier here to show the connection to a 3250HD cable box using DVI.

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4286944247

I would think the F2304 is simply L2335 with speakers and a sleeker bezel case. But that may not be the case.

You may want to return for a L2335 and get a pair of those X-HiFi speakers.

Paul




Originally posted by Larry Hutchinson
I may be returning my F2304 to Fry's.

It is a combination of the improper display of 1080i via DVI as evidenced by the photos I posted in the TiVo forum..
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=176073
... along with my inability to get the monitor to work in 1920x1200 mode on my PC with a somewhat old video card (ELSA Gladiac GTX) when booting into WinME or Win2K (WinXP is fine.)

Now I should point out that as far as I can tell, HP does not claim the monitor can run 1080i via DVI. It just turns out that that it does but then (apparently) gets the even and odd lines reversed.

I have the AccuPel test generator, this will come in handy to see just whats going on here.

Alan,

How about mailing this device to me afterwards.

Paul


Originally posted by Alan Gouger
I have the AccuPel test generator, this will come in handy to see just whats going on here.

Alan:
Originally posted by Alan Gouger
Larry

Does it display 1080I ok if using the component input?

I have a 15 day return policy on this so if Im not happy I can return it.
I should have done more research. I wish I saw your post sooner.

Thanks!

Better with component. Check the images in my TiVo thread. It includes comparisons.

BUT - ignore the color splotches and other aberrations. They are due to the camera.

Paul:
I haven't been able to look at your pictures because it requires a sign-in and I hate that (pet peeve).

You really have to look close at a test pattern to see the interlace issues. You'll never see it from normal viewing distances.

What Video card are you using and what OS? I may get a new video card ( perhaps ATI 9600) but only I can be sure it will work using DVI at 1920x1200 in WinME, Win2K and WinXP.

Hmm, that album is not password protected.

Anyhow, I power the L2335 with a NVidia 4200GO card off my Dell D800 notebook's docking station. It has only 64MB of VRAM. It's a tad underpowered for this panel. I think a 128MB ATI or NVidia card should drive this panel perfectly. I run Windows XP Pro on a Centrino 1.6G chipset with 1GB of RAM.

I do know about the issues you experienced. They are a pain in the A S S.


Paul



Originally posted by Larry Hutchinson
Alan:


Better with component. Check the images in my TiVo thread. It includes comparisons.

BUT - ignore the color splotches and other aberrations. They are due to the camera.

Paul:
I haven't been able to look at your pictures because it requires a sign-in and I hate that (pet peeve).

You really have to look close at a test pattern to see the interlace issues. You'll never see it from normal viewing distances.

What Video card are you using and what OS? I may get a new video card ( perhaps ATI 9600) but only I can be sure it will work using DVI at 1920x1200 in WinME, Win2K and WinXP.

Alan,

I just purchased an F2304 from Fry's and just got finished testing it with 1080i input via my JVC DVHS 30K. At first the damn menu wouldn't let me adjust the aspect ratio to display 1-1. But after hooking my Bravo D1 up to the DVI, the menu item was enabled to change the aspect ratio to 1-1. And that setting is sticky across all display modes. Once I did that.. the image from the JVC was just stunning. I tried my favorite HD tape.. SHREK, as well as the Fifth Element, and a few others, and the image is stunning! This is the first display where I have been able to clearly read the "better than mine" line on the HDNET test pattern.

EXCEPT!! for one major annoying detail. The image is fricken' cropped on the left and right.. and a little on the top and bottom. I see 4's on the top and bottom and 8'S!!!! on the left and right with the test pattern.

I am currently in a round of support emails with HP about this, and I'll let you know what I find out.

I have yet to try this as a computer monitor which is actually what I got it for. Actually, the next thing to test is HD DirectTV and VOOM.. perhaps tonight.

I have a Sharp 30" LCD, Sharp 32" LCD , Sanyo PLV70, Samsung 22" LCD to compare it with.

Keith



Originally posted by Alan Gouger
Larry

Does it display 1080I ok if using the component input?

I have a 15 day return policy on this so if Im not happy I can return it.
I should have done more research. I wish I saw your post sooner.

Thanks!

Keith,

What exactly is a Bravo D1 and how did you get the F2304 to change 1920x1200 (scaled component D-VHS inputs from JVC 30K or cable box) into 1920x1080? (if I read you correctly)

All of the panels you listed does not go beyond 1368x768. Exactly how would you describe the difference viewing the 1920x1080 F2304 vs the others at under 3 feet?


Paul






Originally posted by pixelist
Alan,

I just purchased an F2304 from Fry's and just got finished testing it with 1080i input via my JVC DVHS 30K. At first the damn menu wouldn't let me adjust the aspect ratio to display 1-1. But after hooking my Bravo D1 up to the DVI, the menu item was enabled to change the aspect ratio to 1-1. And that setting is sticky across all display modes. Once I did that.. the image from the JVC was just stunning. I tried my favorite HD tape.. SHREK, as well as the Fifth Element, and a few others, and the image is stunning! This is the first display where I have been able to clearly read the "better than mine" line on the HDNET test pattern.

EXCEPT!! for one major annoying detail. The image is fricken' cropped on the left and right.. and a little on the top and bottom. I see 4's on the top and bottom and 8'S!!!! on the left and right with the test pattern.

I am currently in a round of support emails with HP about this, and I'll let you know what I find out.

I have yet to try this as a computer monitor which is actually what I got it for. Actually, the next thing to test is HD DirectTV and VOOM.. perhaps tonight.

I have a Sharp 30" LCD, Sharp 32" LCD , Sanyo PLV70, Samsung 22" LCD to compare it with.

Keith

Paul,

VInc's Bravo D1 is an upconvering DVD player that outputs 1080i. I used that just to get the panel to let me set the 1-1 image control parameter. Once I did that the panel displayed the 1080i image in the correct proportions, with black bars on the top and bottom of the screen.

The component image is displayed with black bars on the side though, which should not be the case if the image is 1-1. It looks like the image is 1-1, but they are cropping the left and right side by about 50 - 60 pixels. I am diagraming the exact measurements and will post them when I finish.

When I say compare to the other displays.. I mean mainly the color/contrast and brightness as well as refresh. The resolution sure as hell ought to be better.. obviously. And from my viewing so far it is. I haven't put the displays side by side yet.

I am noticing some interlacing in the motion when I get a few inches from the screen. I need to do a real side by side tomorrow.

I just taped the 7 minute LOTR DVD preview off of HDNet with my 169time settup and watched that. I'm still picking the pieces of my jaw off the floor. I think I'll dupe that preview and do a side by side on the LCD displays with two JVC DVHS decks.

Not sure if the DirectTV or VOOM boxes will display with the DVI, but that will also be a good side by side comparison to try tomorrow.

I'll try and post some photos if I get a chance as well...

This hobby is so damn time-consuming. Did I say hobby? Ok, my name is Keith and I am an addict...


;)



Originally posted by Paul Chiu
Keith,

What exactly is a Bravo D1 and how did you get the F2304 to change 1920x1200 (scaled component D-VHS inputs from JVC 30K or cable box) into 1920x1080? (if I read you correctly)

All of the panels you listed does not go beyond 1368x768. Exactly how would you describe the difference viewing the 1920x1080 F2304 vs the others at under 3 feet?


Paul

Keith,

How do you set the "custom scaling" on the F2304. On my L2335, the custom scaling can only be done when I connect the DVI of a 3250HD cable box. Then the custom scaling selection opens up to allow for

1) scaled to full screen
2) scaled to aspect ratio (this is the 1920x1080 with black top & bottoms)
3) scaled to one to one (clueless as to what they does)

With component inputs, as from D-VHS player, or the component outputs of HD cable box, the above selection menu does not light up. So 1920x1200 gets stretch to full screen. When you press the OSD on the L2335 panel, it states that 1804x1015 is displayed. This means that part of the original 1920x1080 is lost when scaled to 1920x1200.

So I was happy to hear that you have a way to enable the menus for component inputs. But your 1-1 setting does not ring a bell regarding the L2335.

I would love to get anything that would permit 1920x1080 from D-VHS through component inputs to not be scaled, as I have so many D-VHS in 1080i.

Do you have the F2304 manual describing more about what this 1-1 menu or setting item is achieved? Maybe I'll order this Bravo D-1. What is the latest D-2 from the Bravo site. Will it do the same thing as D-1?

Paul




Originally posted by pixelist
Paul,

VInc's Bravo D1 is an upconvering DVD player that outputs 1080i. I used that just to get the panel to let me set the 1-1 image control parameter. Once I did that the panel displayed the 1080i image in the correct proportions, with black bars on the top and bottom of the screen.

The component image is displayed with black bars on the side though, which should not be the case if the image is 1-1. It looks like the image is 1-1, but they are cropping the left and right side by about 50 - 60 pixels. I am diagraming the exact measurements and will post them when I finish.

When I say compare to the other displays.. I mean mainly the color/contrast and brightness as well as refresh. The resolution sure as hell ought to be better.. obviously. And from my viewing so far it is. I haven't put the displays side by side yet.

I am noticing some interlacing in the motion when I get a few inches from the screen. I need to do a real side by side tomorrow.

I just taped the 7 minute LOTR DVD preview off of HDNet with my 169time settup and watched that. I'm still picking the pieces of my jaw off the floor. I think I'll dupe that preview and do a side by side on the LCD displays with two JVC DVHS decks.

Not sure if the DirectTV or VOOM boxes will display with the DVI, but that will also be a good side by side comparison to try tomorrow.

I'll try and post some photos if I get a chance as well...

This hobby is so damn time-consuming. Did I say hobby? Ok, my name is Keith and I am an addict...


;)

Paul,

You want the one-to-one setting (the third one). With dvi input connected, choose the one to one option. The setting is sticky so when you go hook up your component input the setting will apply. Your tapes should display as 1920x1080i. BUT, they will be cropped 60 pixels on the left and right side. I am in talks with HP support about this right now as it seems like a bug.

I have looked at the DVI input from the D1 more closely and it looks pretty bad. It does look like they are flipping the fields on the image.

This HP monitor is nice but I don't think they tested it too thoroughly with HD sources.

I'll let you all know what the HP tech support says about it. They are supposed to call tomorrow.

Keith

PS. The Bravo D2 is the newest DVI DVD player from Vinc. I think it has a few more capabilities and formats it will display. Check the press release on their site for what it offers over the D1. I am waiting for the D3 which is coming later in the year. I have the D1 hooked up through my projector (Sanyo PLV70) with DVI and the images are stunning. Before I saw the output of the D1 I was convinced I would never buy another DVD. That changed...


Originally posted by Paul Chiu
Keith,

How do you set the "custom scaling" on the F2304. On my L2335, the custom scaling can only be done when I connect the DVI of a 3250HD cable box. Then the custom scaling selection opens up to allow for

1) scaled to full screen
2) scaled to aspect ratio (this is the 1920x1080 with black top & bottoms)
3) scaled to one to one (clueless as to what they does)

With component inputs, as from D-VHS player, or the component outputs of HD cable box, the above selection menu does not light up. So 1920x1200 gets stretch to full screen. When you press the OSD on the L2335 panel, it states that 1804x1015 is displayed. This means that part of the original 1920x1080 is lost when scaled to 1920x1200.

So I was happy to hear that you have a way to enable the menus for component inputs. But your 1-1 setting does not ring a bell regarding the L2335.

I would love to get anything that would permit 1920x1080 from D-VHS through component inputs to not be scaled, as I have so many D-VHS in 1080i.

Do you have the F2304 manual describing more about what this 1-1 menu or setting item is achieved? Maybe I'll order this Bravo D-1. What is the latest D-2 from the Bravo site. Will it do the same thing as D-1?

Paul

Thanks Keith,

I think I'll put my eyes to rest now, as this East Coast HD addict needs some sleep.

Paul




Originally posted by pixelist
Paul,

You want the one-to-one setting (the third one). With dvi input connected, choose the one to one option. The setting is sticky so when you go hook up your component input the setting will apply. Your tapes should display as 1920x1080i. BUT, they will be cropped 60 pixels on the left and right side. I am in talks with HP support about this right now as it seems like a bug.

I have looked at the DVI input from the D1 more closely and it looks pretty bad. It does look like they are flipping the fields on the image.

This HP monitor is nice but I don't think they tested it too thoroughly with HD sources.

I'll let you all know what the HP tech support says about it. They are supposed to call tomorrow.

Keith

PS. The Bravo D2 is the newest DVI DVD player from Vinc. I think it has a few more capabilities and formats it will display. Check the press release on their site for what it offers over the D1. I am waiting for the D3 which is coming later in the year. I have the D1 hooked up through my projector (Sanyo PLV70) with DVI and the images are stunning. Before I saw the output of the D1 I was convinced I would never buy another DVD. That changed...

I got my L2335 today. I can't seem to manage opening up the door to the composite/S=Video ports. What's the trick?

Use your nail to pry that little black tab out. You have to really squeeze that little tab.

If your nail chips easy, use a soft tip screwdriver to pry that door out, near the tab. I scratch the surroundings a little, so use a soft tip object if you care about the appearance of the back.

Paul




Originally posted by xortam
I got my L2335 today. I can't seem to manage opening up the door to the composite/S=Video ports. What's the trick?

I have looked at the DVI input from the D1 more closely and it looks pretty bad. It does look like they are flipping the fields on the image.

This HP monitor is nice but I don't think they tested it too thoroughly with HD sources.

I'll let you all know what the HP tech support says about it. They are supposed to call tomorrow.

They will probably say that 1080i via DVI is not supported. The only 1080 mode in the specifications (mode 22) is affected by the following footnote: Display modes 20, 22, and 24 are supported by the analog
signal input only; Digital video does not support these
modes.

On the other hand, the F2304 is advertised as a "High Definition 23” LCD Monitor" and that implies (to me) support for HDTV signals.

Also, I am afraid they are blanking out the edges of the component 1080i picture under the mistaken belief that there is supposed to be overscan. Wrong wrong wrong.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
Use your nail to pry that little black tab out. You have to really squeeze that little tab.

If your nail chips easy, use a soft tip screwdriver to pry that door out, near the tab. I scratch the surroundings a little, so use a soft tip object if you care about the appearance of the back.

Paul Thanks. I tried all that ... I used a hard-tip screwdriver though (need to look for something less destructive but still up to the task). I used my smallest jeweler's flat head so I left a couple very small raises on the tab. I had started wondering if the tab didn't push in but rather out because the corners of the door are stuck. The diagram looks like only the perpendicular door piece lifts off rather than it and the flat piece with the tab attached. :confused: I'm trying to be very careful here but I still haven't achieved access to these legacy connections.

Ask the girlfriend when all else fails!



Originally posted by xortam
Thanks. I tried all that ... I used a hard-tip screwdriver though (need to look for something less destructive but still up to the task). I used my smallest jeweler's flat head so I left a couple very small raises on the tab. I had started wondering if the tab didn't push in but rather out because the corners of the door are stuck. The diagram looks like only the perpendicular door piece lifts off rather than it and the flat piece with the tab attached. :confused: I'm trying to be very careful here but I still haven't achieved access to these legacy connections.

Ok I just hooked up my F2304.

Im still working and wont have time to play until tonight but heres a few quick notes.

First off because Im using this as a HDTV the first thing I miss and dont think I can live without is a remote. What a pain. For this kind of money Im sending this back just on that.

It has better blacks then my 32" Sharp. Less posturization/video noise as well. I like the picture on this.

Using the Accupel HD generator set to 1080I via dvi with the monitor set to
"fill the screen" mode I get no over scan at all but when changing to component 1080i from my cable box feeding it a 1080i signal I do get the same horizontal over scan everyone else is getting. I wont have time to hook things up so I can feed it HD DVI until tonight.

When selecting 1:1 in dvi mode it does stay for all the other inputs as well but everything has a 1" horizontal/vertical blank boarder around it. It does not fill the panel but the over scan is gone on component in at 1080i. I also get the same results feeding it 720P.

I also notice I get more deinterlacing artifacts when in 1:1 mode verses "fill the screen" mode. I would think it would be the other way around. Because of this and ending up with a boarder of unused panel around the image when in 1:1 its obvious its not in 1:1 mode. The internal scaler is not disabled and its doing something weired.

Theres also no head room as far adjusting contrast and brightness. Out of the box the contrast is at 100% and you want to give the image a little more punch but you have no where to go. The color is set to 100% also. Maybe if using an external video processor this thing may be able to deliver a snapping picture.
Ill post some pictures later tonight when I have time to play.

I do like the image over my sharp. Cleaner, better blacks.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
Ask the girlfriend when all else fails! Yesterday my friend mentioned that I should have my wife look at it since she may have a better approach to it. I'll ask her to look at it when she gets home from work if I haven't managed by then. I'd hoped that I could have performed what had seemed to be such a simple task but two of us have failed at it so far and research on the internet hasn't helped any yet.

There appears to be two pieces to this door ... a sideways door piece which extends out of the back of the panel and which evidently covers the ports, and a second piece which is flush with the back of the panel and which has the adjacent (connected?) tab. I assume the tab doesn't actually come out of the back but rather that its meant to be pushed towards the side piece and somehow that allows the side piece to be removed. Can you expand on this?

Alan,

Try custom color, and set all RGB to 50%.

I find on my L2335, the brightness look best at under 50%. In S-Video mode, the brightness has to be increased to over 775% with contrast to 65%+ to look as good.

S-Video of analog cable channels with fill screen selected is actually watchable for most of these cable channels.

Paul



Originally posted by Alan Gouger
Ok I just hooked up my F2304.

Im still working and wont have time to play until tonight but heres a few quick notes.

First off because Im using this as a HDTV the first thing I miss and dont think I can live without is a remote. What a pain. For this kind of money Im sending this back just on that.

It has better blacks then my 32" Sharp. Less posturization/video noise as well. I like the picture on this.

Using the Accupel HD generator set to 1080I via dvi with the monitor set to
"fill the screen" mode I get no over scan at all but when changing to component 1080i from my cable box feeding it a 1080i signal I do get the same horizontal over scan everyone else is getting. I wont have time to hook things up so I can feed it HD DVI until tonight.

When selecting 1:1 in dvi mode it does stay for all the other inputs as well but everything has a 1" horizontal/vertical blank boarder around it. It does not fill the panel but the over scan is gone on component in at 1080i. I also get the same results feeding it 720P.

I also notice I get more deinterlacing artifacts when in 1:1 mode verses "fill the screen" mode. I would think it would be the other way around. Because of this and ending up with a boarder of unused panel around the image when in 1:1 its obvious its not in 1:1 mode. The internal scaler is not disabled and its doing something weired.

Theres also no head room as far adjusting contrast and brightness. Out of the box the contrast is at 100% and you want to give the image a little more punch but you have no where to go. The color is set to 100% also. Maybe if using an external video processor this thing may be able to deliver a snapping picture.
Ill post some pictures later tonight when I have time to play.

I do like the image over my sharp. Cleaner, better blacks.

Paul

Thanks for the tip. That did the trick. I turned up the drives from 50 to 60 across the board and it helped a lot. I cant believe how good the blacks look on this.
On my sharp the blacks are crushed, no detail.
My sharp is the first generation and I can see where they have made improvement with lcd.

Paul Chiu ... Can you expand on this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3848212#post3848212)?

X Man,

Which part? The custom color thingee or the S-Video expansion to Alan?

Or the back plastic door issue?

Paul



Originally posted by xortam
Paul Chiu ... Can you expand on this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3848212#post3848212)?

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
X Man,

Which part? The custom color thingee or the S-Video expansion to Alan?

Or the back plastic door issue?

Paul I included the link to my post in the word "this". I want to know how to open the access door to the legacy video ports.

X-Man,

I tried it again just now (just for U).

Try this. Use a qtip to push the bllack tab toward the rest of the door. Use a small screwdriver to pry thy door out from an area near the edges of the door.

The kkey is to push hard with that q-tip at the door tab.

Hope it works for you!

Paul


Originally posted by xortam
I included the link to my post in the word "this". I want to know how to open the access door to the legacy video ports.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
X-Man, ... I've been called "Xor" many times but never "X-Man". I loved X-men comics when I was a kid so I kinda like that spin on my handle.... The kkey is to push hard with that q-tip at the door tab. ...Thanks. I didn't want to break anything so I wanted to be careful and check for feedback from various owners (limited amount in the HP knowledgebase currently). I haven't had a chance to look at it today, or even eat lunch for that matter (too much forum time :rolleyes: ) so I'll go check it out. Thanks again.

With respect to the access door of the F2304, there is a section in the manual on how to remove the door.

But my monitor did not come with the door attached. It was in a plastic bag.

BTW, I did buy an ATI 9600 SE and will not return it until I test with this card.

Alan: Why do you need a remote? The screen is so small you'll be sitting at arm's length anyway.

Originally posted by Larry Hutchinson
With respect to the access door of the F2304, there is a section in the manual on how to remove the door.

But my monitor did not come with the door attached. It was in a plastic bag. ... Interesting. I have not found any documentation on the legacy port door on the L2335, either in printed or internet form. I'll check out the f2304 manual.

xortam,

I'm not sure if your door is the same as the F2304 door, but when i got mine the door did not exactly pop off like the quick start guide showed it should. I had to pull it off with considerable force. But it did come off. The two latches farthest from the ports just pop out and the door seperates from the casing. I did not use any tools..just pulled with my hands.

Hope you get that door open.. this must be frustrating.

Keith


Originally posted by xortam
Interesting. I have not found any documentation on the legacy port door on the L2335, either in printed or internet form. I'll check out the f2304 manual.

Thanks people. I did finally manage to pop the door open but only at a great deal of exertion. The cotton swabs quickly collapsed under the pressure but they proved to be a good cushion to leverage my screwdriver against and I only marred up the door ... which HP will replace. :mad: I will probably just leave the door off anyway since this monitor will travel around to various connections inside and outside the house as my needs dictate. I'll mainly be driving it through DVI-I in the HT room though. Off to some lunch and start my day putting together all my brand new HT toys (HTPC including ATSC tuner, LCD, BUD DTV receiver, Bluetooth K/M, etc. etc. etc.). I hope not to be back on these forums today ... busy busy busy. Thanks again.

Well I have to agree with Larry, I dont think this unit is meant to receive motion on its DVI.
Larry I am getting the same thing you posted in your pictures.

If I send the unit 720P and choose 1:1 I get a 4" square in the middle. Something is definitely not right.
These quirks aside it still has a nice image.

Originally posted by Alan Gouger
Well I have to agree with Larry, I dont think this unit is meant to receive motion on its DVI.
Larry I am getting the same thing you posted in your pictures.

If I send the unit 720P and choose 1:1 I get a 4" square in the middle. Something is definitely not right.
These quirks aside it still has a nice image.

It shouldn't be square but it will be somewhat small. It will be the center 1280 (out of 1920) horizontal pixels and the center 720 (out of 1200) vertical pixels. That is what I saw as documented in my second set of pictures.

I have two DirectTv HD tuners.

The Samsung 160 shows the bar on the left side.
The LG3200 is much better in that only one channel out of many had the left side bar.

But most importantly the LG2335 expects a FULL scale/PC DVI level.
The LG has a selectable DVI output level. Limited range DVI is noticeably inferior!

I guess my SA 3250HD tuner is "full range", as the L2335 is filled from left to right correctly at 1920x1080 using DVI. If I were to be "burn-out phobic", and use fill to screen, the L2335 completely fills the 1920x1200 panel using the DVI without any wasted space.

Paul


Originally posted by softengr
I have two DirectTv HD tuners.

The Samsung 160 shows the bar on the left side.
The LG3200 is much better in that only one channel out of many had the left side bar.

But most importantly the LG2335 expects a FULL scale/PC DVI level.
The LG has a selectable DVI output level. Limited range DVI is noticeably inferior!

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
I guess my SA 3250HD tuner is "full range", as the L2335 is filled from left to right correctly at 1920x1080 using DVI. If I were to be "burn-out phobic", and use fill to screen, the L2335 completely fills the 1920x1200 panel using the DVI without any wasted space.
Paul
DVI/VQR has to do with the difference/scaling between black and white, not picture position.
Most consumer DVI sources generate a limited DVI (16-235) Video Quantization Range (VQR).

A HTPC generates full (1-255) VQR.

It is very important to match the players output VQR to the displays input VQR.

For example my GWIII LCD rear projector expects limited VQR. But my Sony HS20 front projector expects full VQR as do all computer monitors. The Momitsu 880 player generates limited VQR.

DVI mismatch == inferior picture quality

Softee,

You live around NYC? Wanna come over and check out my gear? We'll go out for Bass Ale afterwards.

Paul




Originally posted by softengr
DVI/VQR has to do with the difference/scaling between black and white, not picture position.
Most consumer DVI sources generate a limited DVI (16-235) Video Quantization Range (VQR).

A HTPC generates full (1-255) VQR.

It is very important to match the players output VQR to the displays input VQR.

For example my GWIII LCD rear projector expects limited VQR. But my Sony HS20 front projector expects full VQR as do all computer monitors. The Momitsu 880 player generates limited VQR.

DVI mismatch == inferior picture quality

The HP F2304 was just reviewed by ExtremeTech and is available
at they're website (I can't post the URL yet as I haven't
posted enough times yet) - but, it's at extremetech dot com.

They also dinged HP for not shipping a remote with this unit
and focused more on the HDTV aspect than use as a PC. They're
opinion is that HP designed it for PC use and only occasional HDTV
use.

Has anybody else hooked their F2304 to a computer DVI source successfully? I just tried hooking my vaio up to it, and at 1920x1200 the image looks great until I run any media on the screen. Playing a quicktime movie or windows media file results in small static streaks going across the display. My vaio has an ATI Radeon 9200 video card. The VGA output looks fine.. just not as crisp as the DVI, but no streaking.

I find it very strange that they didn't mention the field-flipping problem we are seeing with 1080i DVI input, in the ExtremeTech review. Seems like they would have caught that with the detail of their tests.

It is truly amazing how difficult it is to find a support person at HP who knows anything about this monitor. Still trying...

Larry, did your new video card work?

Keith


Originally posted by ftaylor
The HP F2304 was just reviewed by ExtremeTech and is available
at they're website (I can't post the URL yet as I haven't
posted enough times yet) - but, it's at extremetech dot com.

They also dinged HP for not shipping a remote with this unit
and focused more on the HDTV aspect than use as a PC. They're
opinion is that HP designed it for PC use and only occasional HDTV
use.

Larry, did your new video card work?

Still in the box. I'll try to find time this weekend. Since I have a tripple boot machine, it is going to be a bit of a pain.

Wrong forum for this but someone here may know: The ATI instructions say to uninstall the old card driver and then reboot. Seems to me you would uninstall, shut down, swap cards and then reboot. Otherwise, wouldn't the OS try to reinstall the old card? Any comments?

Wrong forum for this but someone here may know: The ATI instructions say to uninstall the old card driver and then reboot. Seems to me you would uninstall, shut down, swap cards and then reboot. Otherwise, wouldn't the OS try to reinstall the old card? Any comments?

The procedure you outlined is the one I have always used, and would recommend. There are other ways of doing it, but that procedure is the safest/cleanest/best, in my opinion.

Well, I've been following this discussion for a while now, and thanks to all who have posted info, reviews, etc on these panels.

My HP L2335 should be arrving soon, having left Indianapolis via UPS late last night!

I have, however a question. I am planning to hook this thing up to a (not yet purchased) PowerMac G5. I've read with interest the issue of horizontal flashing lines at 1920x1200 resolution, related to the limitations of DVI, and the solution posted of reducing the vertical refresh frequency down from 60Hz to eliminate this problem. In fact, I looked at this monitor (actually the consumer version with built in speakers) at CompUSA last weekend, and indeed this artifact was present. I could not, on the WinXP based system two which it was attached, reduce the vertical refresh to see if that would fix the problem, but I assume it would have from the postings here.

I have not, while playing with the PowerMacs at the Apple store, seen a way to change the vertical refresh, although all these systems were, of course, connected to Apple Displays; clearly the PowerMac can run the ACD 23" at 1920x1200, though.

I'm wondering: Does OSX automatically handle reducing the refresh rate when it detects a resolution higher than DVI can handle, or there something special about the Apple Cinema Display going on?

Has anyone hooked one of these things up to a Mac to see if it works properly?

Thanks for any thoughts/comments.

nl

Originally posted by (nl)

Has anyone hooked one of these things up to a Mac to see if it works properly?

Thanks for any thoughts/comments.

nl

nl,

I just tried it on my G4 cube. The DVI worked, but the display resolutions highest available was 1600x1000 and when I clicked on that my display went black and the DVI hasn't worked since.

The analog RGB input on the other hand goes up to 1920x1200 and has an option for setting the refresh. It looks quite nice.

I'm going to try to have a friend bring over his powerbook tomorrow and I'll post the results.

Keith

Originally posted by ftaylor
The HP F2304 was just reviewed by ExtremeTech and is available
at they're website (I can't post the URL yet as I haven't
posted enough times yet) - but, it's at extremetech dot com.

They also dinged HP for not shipping a remote with this unit
and focused more on the HDTV aspect than use as a PC. They're
opinion is that HP designed it for PC use and only occasional HDTV
use.

The Extreme Tech review blew it! Why use an external DVD player? The extra D/A and A/D conversions ALWAYS make any picture lose realism and natural tack sharpness of an all digital picture. There are many PC SOFTWARE based players available. Here Extreme Tech is presented with the opportunity to run 1920*1080p @60Hz - all digital too. And they blew it! No switching/remote required either.

Who would ever even buy an (Sencore) HD generator with only ANALOG outputs? How about a new name like "Mediocre Tech"?

The review did not even state how sharp and easy it is to read the text. (Only later in the user comments(!) did the reviewer state this very fundamental point).

He complains about text being hard to read with the luxurious 23" screen. The display is huge as compared to what almost everyone else currently uses. Has he ever seen a notebook display text? Following this logic, ZDNET should rate ALL notebooks as unacceptable ...

Another poorly reasoned review, but at least the measurements appear to be good. Anyone who disagrees with this can buy the Dell 1920*1200 15" notebook display as punishment.:D

Lastly, the similar L2335 is ~$300 less than the 2304. One can buy an excellent desktop speaker system with separate sub-woofer for superior sound quality.

Originally posted by (nl)
Has anyone hooked one of these things up to a Mac to see if it works properly?


Just tried a 1G PowerBook with the display. Plugged the dvi in and the thing "just worked". I wish my PC would just work when I plugged something into it, but no... you've got to reboot the damn thing to get anything to work right. But I digress.. back to the matter at hand. The DVI from the powerbook at 1920x1200 is awesome. And the powerbook did a respectable job displaying 1080i .ts files with VLC even though it is a bit underpowered.

I also managed to fix the DVI from the vaio by fussing with the ATI DVI options for the video card. The vaio looks great as well now at 1920x1200. However VLC in HD is pretty unusable with a 1.4 centrino vaio. At least with the settings I have for it currently.

Next step is to hook my Dell dimension XPS 3.4G as see how that does with VLC at 1080i....

I think I'm going to keep this display. The computer output is just beautiful and even though the component display of 1080i is way too overscanned the image is the most breathtaking 1080i I have ever seen. Even with minor interlacing artifacts.

I probably will never use the messed up DVI 1080i input on the f2304.

Keith

An interesting tid bit. I called the HP Pre-Sales questions line today and asked about the response time on the L2335. They said that it is actually 25ms, despite what they say on their website. They again confirmed this with tech support after I had pointed out the discrepancy with the website. I'd also point out that the F2304 seems to be the same panel, given that the specs are exactly the same as the L2335.

DanW

The ExtremeTech reviewer did address the critism I wrote the very same day.

To be fair to him, he did rate the Gateway 30" panel a "5". Perhaps he is a tough grader. I followed up with the advice that he should try using the F2304 at home, connect it to real world HDTV cable boxes or computers. Using the F2304 with some Sencore hard drive is silly and helps no one who reads these reviews.

As someone who raved about the L2335 over a month ago and one of the 1st to buy the panel "blindly". I do feel responsible for some of the issues you all raise here. But, I try to bring everything objectively.

Since my experience had been much more positive than not, I cannot help but present a terrific picture on the L2335. Sorry to those who have not share similar experiences.

Paul




Originally posted by softengr
The Extreme Tech review blew it! Why use an external DVD player? The extra D/A and A/D conversions ALWAYS make any picture lose realism and natural tack sharpness of an all digital picture. There are many PC SOFTWARE based players available. Here Extreme Tech is presented with the opportunity to run 1920*1080p @60Hz - all digital too. And they blew it! No switching/remote required either.

Who would ever even buy an (Sencore) HD generator with only ANALOG outputs? How about a new name like "Mediocre Tech"?

The review did not even state how sharp and easy it is to read the text. (Only later in the user comments(!) did the reviewer state this very fundamental point).

He complains about text being hard to read with the luxurious 23" screen. The display is huge as compared to what almost everyone else currently uses. Has he ever seen a notebook display text? Following this logic, ZDNET should rate ALL notebooks as unacceptable ...

Another poorly reasoned review, but at least the measurements appear to be good. Anyone who disagrees with this can buy the Dell 1920*1200 15" notebook display as punishment.:D

Lastly, the similar L2335 is ~$300 less than the 2304. One can buy an excellent desktop speaker system with separate sub-woofer for superior sound quality.

I'm considering getting one. Does anyone know if the L2335/F2304 refresh rate tracks the input signal? That is, if I input 24fps, does the screen actually update at 24fps? I'm very familiar one LCD monitor (not the HP) and it always refreshes at a fixed internal rate regardless of the input signal. This can lead to judder.

Wilson, check this out!!!
http://www.benq.com.au/HomeShowProduct.asp?prodID=242

Should be available here in USA somethime in June!

This is a short thank you for all the good information you guys, and especially the early adopter Paul, have been posting.

I have been lurking this thread as I was looking for a new large display. Being a coder one can never have too much screen real estate. As a result this message is being typed from behind my brand new HP L2335, bought when the price dropped to 1300 Euro (without VAT) in the Netherlands. For once I was very happy that the US Dollar has devaluated so much. It certainly was worth the 20 day wait.

This screen is simply amazing. I have it side by side with an Samsung 171P and especially the colors are so much better. What makes me curious is if the Samsung colors were always that bad due to the older technology or if LCD screens degrade through time.

A quick check also showed 0 dead or stuck (sub)-pixels. But I don't dear to take a real close look. Afraid as I am to find a dead subpixel that might distract me. Ignorance is bliss.

While you can adjust everthing, it feels incredibly sturdy. It can pivot, rotate from left to right, rotate up and down and even be adjusted in height over a quite long range. One thing I don't like about the Apple Cinema Displays is that one can not adjust height. Ergonomics get 10 out of 10.

The great design makes you wonder why they implemented this stupid video bay cover. I guess time was up and they left designing the bay cover to a student. I too am unable to open the small video bay cover without using force and screwdrivers.

All in all highly recommended. Now if only they would start offering 1080i television in Amsterdam.

Jan Derk

Thanks for trying the L2335 on the Macs, pixelist. It's reassuring to see that it worked on a PB, since I assume the video is at least comparable if not better on a PM.

I've seen the monitor at CompUSA, and have to agree with those who have posted here: I thought the image was superb, better than my Dell 2001FP at 1600x1200, and definitely brighter and more contrasty than the Apple 23".

According to UPS, I should be getting it on Wednesday (which is sort of frustrating as it is presently <1 hr from my house by car, so why is it taking so long to get here!).

nl

Regarding the BenQ FP231W, the speakers and webcam are optional, it doesn't have a pivot option, it seems technically the same as the HP (but has a slightly thinner and metal bezel), and it's most likely going to be more expensive. BenQ doesn't say which hardware is inside driving the panel, but more detailed specs can be found here:

http://www.benq.com/ss_download/product_guides/prg_lcd.pdf

Well, I dropped by CompUSA today to have another look at the HP F2304.

For those who are very bothered by the "sparkly" appearance of some LCDs, I don't think you will be happy with this monitor. My sense is that this monitor as more such appearance than the Samsung 213T, a little more than the current Apple 23" Cinema Display, and about the same as the 19" Viewsonic (not sure what model). I don't find it worse than any other LCD I've used in terms of the using experience, but it will probably bother some. It's worth a trip to a CompUSA or BestBuy if you have one near your, to look at it before buying.

I still think that this monitor has an excellent image for text and pictures. It is brighter than the Apple 23" Cinema display and less bright than the Apple 20", which is probably par for the course for such a large panel.

They had done something to it since I was last in their, because the horizontal flashes were gone. The sales rep told me "the tech guys tweaked it" but he had no idea what was done. In any case, it wasn't a complete fix, because there were now bright colored flashes at various points on the screen, mostly the central aspect of the right upper quarter. They had not, as far as I could tell, change the refresh rate. Another sales rep told me first that it would work better if I tried _increasing_ the refresh rate, but I quickly disabused him of this wrong notion. He then told me that it was because the video card wasn't powerful enough to handle this monitor, which I thought was bizarre since it was an nVideo Geforce FX 5600, which I tend to think of as a pretty up to date card.

The good part of today's trip was that this second rep offered to move the monitor over to connect it to a PowerMac G5 when I told him I was planning to buy one (true) and was looking at this monitor for it (not totally true, as my L2335 is arriving Wednesday according to UPS - have I mentioned that before?).

On the G5 (dual 2.0 GHz), the monitor had a completely clean image with no flashes, sparkles, lines, etc - so the PM G5 can drive this monitor without any trouble at 1920x1200. The control panel indicated that it was at 60Hz. Interestingly, the control panel did not allow for adjustment of the brightness as it does when an Apple display is connected (presumably the apple displays have some special hardware for this), but that's not that big a deal as you can still adjust brightness vis the OSD, how often do you change that setting anyway? The color balance control panel "knew" it was an F2304. THe sales rep told me that was because "OSX is great because it comes all set up for all this different hardware" which again seems unlikely, because I doubt OSX would have built in information on a monitor that didn't exist when OSX shipped...more likely, the PNP features of the monitor allow it to send identification and other info back to the OS.

Anyway, it was mighty reassuring to me to see this monitor work perfectly on a G5. Assuming a stock configuration (which is, I think, all that CompUSA would have), the video was an ATI 9600 Pro, and at least that board seems to drive this panel perfectly at max resolution. Also of note, someone on avsforum.com posted that he had hooked the F2304 to a Powerbook at it worked perfectly as well.

nl

Is there any real major differences between the HP F2304 and the L2335? Both can do HDTV correct?

The F2304 has speakers and a sleeker case, but cannot pivot and sells for $2000.

The L2335 is $1700

As far a s I know, the same electronics and no remote control anywhere.

Paul



Originally posted by Kamakzie
Is there any real major differences between the HP F2304 and the L2335? Both can do HDTV correct?

If you drive the L2335/F2304 with a 128MB video card, you will be very happy. Been using my L2335 with the ATI9800 now for a few days. No issues. The 5600 series is not that up to date. The Nvidia 6800 should be fabulous with the L2335 when it comes out.

Does the Apple Dual G5 have a 128MB card?
Even if it's only 64MB, Apple's OS does have better graphics control with less than their PC equivalents.


Paul


Originally posted by (nl)
Well, I dropped by CompUSA today to have another look at the HP F2304.

The good part of today's trip was that this second rep offered to move the monitor over to connect it to a PowerMac G5 when I told him I was planning to buy one (true) and was looking at this monitor for it (not totally true, as my L2335 is arriving Wednesday according to UPS - have I mentioned that before?).

On the G5 (dual 2.0 GHz), the monitor had a completely clean image with no flashes, sparkles, lines, etc - so the PM G5 can drive this monitor without any trouble at 1920x1200. The control panel indicated that it was at 60Hz. Interestingly, the control panel did not allow for adjustment of the brightness as it does when an Apple display is connected (presumably the apple displays have some special hardware for this), but that's not that big a deal as you can still adjust brightness vis the OSD, how often do you change that setting anyway? The color balance control panel "knew" it was an F2304. THe sales rep told me that was because "OSX is great because it comes all set up for all this different hardware" which again seems unlikely, because I doubt OSX would have built in information on a monitor that didn't exist when OSX shipped...more likely, the PNP features of the monitor allow it to send identification and other info back to the OS.

Anyway, it was mighty reassuring to me to see this monitor work perfectly on a G5. Assuming a stock configuration (which is, I think, all that CompUSA would have), the video was an ATI 9600 Pro, and at least that board seems to drive this panel perfectly at max resolution. Also of note, someone on avsforum.com posted that he had hooked the F2304 to a Powerbook at it worked perfectly as well.

nl

Is the F2304 16ms and the L2335 also 16ms? How is the L2335 for gaming? Pretty sad, when I bought my NEC LCD1800 monitor 3.5 years ago it cost me $1835! :)

HP.com posted that same 16ms rating on both screens.

Unless there are great widescreen based games, why would you want a 16:10 LCD for gaming? I am not sure there would be no "burn in" issues when you play 4:3 games on a 16:10 panel over a long period. I think the 20" Dell at the same 16ms response rate is better for gaming. IMHO.

Don't feel bad about that $1835. That's just progress. Many here have spent much more over the years on smaller screens with less resolution.

Enjoy the 23" HP, if and when you decide to get it.

Paul

Originally posted by Kamakzie
Is the F2304 16ms and the L2335 also 16ms? How is the L2335 for gaming? Pretty sad, when I bought my NEC LCD1800 monitor 3.5 years ago it cost me $1835! :)

Well I would like to use it for gaming but the biggie would be HDTV in the component input. How do you guys like it for HDTV? Does it compare with LCD TV's that look really good when showing HD content?

Also is there any real difference between using DVI or component?

To sum the near 500 postings here, the L2335 have issues with component 720P and 1080i HDTV inputs. Both are automatically scaled into full screen; thus stretching the 1920x1080 into 1920x1200. For 720P stuff like those from ABC-HD, the stretching is less apparent. But you realize it with everything else.

With DVI HD input, the 1920x1080 is perserved and is glorious. So, you need a HD cable box or HD source with DVI outputs to drive this panel.

Beyond that. there is the issue of DVI-HDCP compliancy lurking to perhaps take this capability away, as no one here or on the HP.COM site have defined the L2335/F2304 as HDCP compliant. Right now, my L2335's work with a DVI Scientific Atlanta HDTV cable box. How much longer, I don't know. But I am getting 1920x1080 HD on the L2335 with no problems in my eyes.

How does it compares with any other LCD TV or plasma? It can't compare, as there are NO 1920x1080 LCD TV's out there to compare it with. The best LCD TV's I know are only 1368x768. The Sharp 30" to 37" Aquos LCD's are less resolved, less sharp, with good colors IMHO. The larger plasmas like the Fujitsu 50" have better blacks at any angle than the LCD's. Can't beat the Fujitsu or Pioneer Elite blacks!

Your local Fry's, Best Buys, or CompUSA may have the F2304's now on display, but may not have a true HD cable box connected to it. These F2304 may be only doing part time (display) work as a computer 1920x1200 digital (or analog, aauugh!) monitor.

Good luck on your hunt!

Paul


Originally posted by Kamakzie
Well I would like to use it for gaming but the biggie would be HDTV in the component input. How do you guys like it for HDTV? Does it compare with LCD TV's that look really good when showing HD content?

Paul, do you use the monitor for your computer at all? If so I would assume you are using analog for your computer and the DVI for your HD content? It's a shame it doesn't have dual DVI. I have a HD TiVo so it would probably work good. I wonder if the F2304 does that stretch thing through component as well.

Yes on the F2304.

While the DVI-Analog input does an excellent job at 1920x1200 with a great video card, I am not using that for computer. I am using the DVI Digital input for both computer and HDTV. How? I bought a Gefen 4x1 HDTV - DVI (HDCP compliant) Switch box.

While the HP panels have no remote control, the Gefen 4x1 does! And that is a GOOD THING!

Paul




Originally posted by Kamakzie
Paul, do you use the monitor for your computer at all? If so I would assume you are using analog for your computer and the DVI for your HD content? It's a shame it doesn't have dual DVI. I have a HD TiVo so it would probably work good. I wonder if the F2304 does that stretch thing through component as well.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
To sum the near 500 postings here, the L2335 have issues with component 720P and 1080i HDTV inputs. Both are automatically scaled into full screen; thus stretching the 1920x1080 into 1920x1200. For 720P stuff like those from ABC-HD, the stretching is less apparent. But you realize it with everything else.

With DVI HD input, the 1920x1080 is perserved and is glorious. So, you need a HD cable box or HD source with DVI outputs to drive this panel.


Actually, there is a setting for the scale of the image. You can set the display to show the input at one-to-one ratio which means you are seeing unscaled HD input. Unfortunately, the image is overscanned excessively, so you get robbed of about half inch on the left and right. There are black bars where there should be image data. The picture at one-to-one with component is gorgeous though. I have never seen better.

When the HPf2304 is set to scale the image to full-screen (or the other setting is scale-to-aspect-ratio) the picture loses some of it's sharpness and resolution as the scaling tends to blur the image.

The DVI input is questionable for HD. Some have reported it fine, others including myself have reported seeing swapped fields in the interlacing of the 1080i image. It may very well depend on the source, as I have only one DVI source I was able to feed it.

Keith

Keith

Actually, I forgot to thank you for that 1:1 setting. And as you said, it introduce the "borders all around" issue!

I did get to connect the L2335 with a few DVI equipped items, like DVD players and another HD cable box (Pioneer 3510HD), and the best picture is still with the SA 3250HD box. So, it does depend on the source.

Paul



Originally posted by pixelist
Actually, there is a setting for the scale of the image. You can set the display to show the input at one-to-one ratio which means you are seeing unscaled HD input. Unfortunately, the image is overscanned excessively, so you get robbed of about half inch on the left and right. There are black bars where there should be image data. The picture at one-to-one with component is gorgeous though. I have never seen better.

When the HPf2304 is set to scale the image to full-screen (or the other setting is scale-to-aspect-ratio) the picture loses some of it's sharpness and resolution as the scaling tends to blur the image.

The DVI input is questionable for HD. Some have reported it fine, others including myself have reported seeing swapped fields in the interlacing of the 1080i image. It may very well depend on the source, as I have only one DVI source I was able to feed it.

Keith

In response to the earlier question, the Powermac G5 has 64 meg on its video card. Why it is that PowerMac G5's, marketed by apple for their graphics power, come with only 64Meg is another question. Still, as Paul commented earlier, Mac's seem to do more with less graphics hardware than PCs. I don't know why/how.

OTOH, I actually do not understand why so much video ram is actually needed. If you are running an L2335 in 1920x1200, then you have 2,304,000 total pixels. At the best color depth of 24 bits, you need therefore 3 bytes for each pixel, so you can store an entire screen image in 6,912,000 bytes.

Now, I have no expertise in current graphics programming techniques, but I woudl assume that modern graphics cards and APIs allow you to build images separate from the currently displayed image and overlay them so that animations, etc, can be done faster - and I assume that's what the additional memory is useful for. Still, with only 7MB needed for the image, 64MB should be plenty and I wouldn't expect to see that much of a performance boost by going to 128 - nor would I expect that to impact on image quality or ability to deliver the image to the monitor at a high enough rate to avoid the sparkles, etc, seen on the F2304 with the nVidia card.

BTW: The PowerMac G5 is, according to apple, able to drive 2 23" cinema displays with the standard nVidia or ATI cards (nVidia is a Geforce FX 5200, ATI is a Radeon 9600), both having 64MB. So again, I am surprised that the GeForce FX 5600 in the PC couldn't handle this monitor.

nl

That would probably be the way I would go. Sounds like you don't lose to much of the video. My current CRT has quite a lot of overscan so I am used to this. Now the question has to be asked. Couldn't I play PC games with this? The F2304 tauts this monitor as a good gaming monitor. So I would assume the L2335 could as well. If any of you guys use it to game as well what resolutions do you use in games? The highest I usually see in game options is 1280x1024.

Originally posted by pixelist
Actually, there is a setting for the scale of the image. You can set the display to show the input at one-to-one ratio which means you are seeing unscaled HD input. Unfortunately, the image is overscanned excessively, so you get robbed of about half inch on the left and right. There are black bars where there should be image data. The picture at one-to-one with component is gorgeous though. I have never seen better.

Keith

The highest I usually see in game options is 1280x1024.

Really? 1600x1200 has been pretty standard for FPS's for the last couple years now.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
Yes on the F2304.

While the DVI-Analog input does an excellent job at 1920x1200 with a great video card, I am not using that for computer. I am using the DVI Digital input for both computer and HDTV. How? I bought a Gefen 4x1 HDTV - DVI (HDCP compliant) Switch box.

While the HP panels have no remote control, the Gefen 4x1 does! And that is a GOOD THING!

Paul
I see that "Best Buy".com is carrying the HP F2304. The total MSRP/street/Internet price difference (including tax) between the L2335 and 2304 (with rebate) is a whopping $576.
For this huge price difference, one can buy the Geffen DVI switcher/remote and a superior surround sound speaker system. So I agree with Paul, besides offering superior performance, this combination is the real best buy.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
The ExtremeTech reviewer did address the critism I wrote the very same day.

To be fair to him, he did rate the Gateway 30" panel a "5". Perhaps he is a tough grader. I followed up with the advice that he should try using the F2304 at home, connect it to real world HDTV cable boxes or computers. Using the F2304 with some Sencore hard drive is silly and helps no one who reads these reviews.

As someone who raved about the L2335 over a month ago and one of the 1st to buy the panel "blindly". I do feel responsible for some of the issues you all raise here. But, I try to bring everything objectively.

Since my experience had been much more positive than not, I cannot help but present a terrific picture on the L2335. Sorry to those who have not share similar experiences.

Paul
Paul,
You have spent considerable time documenting superiority of the L2335 to previous LCD panel generations (Apple, Sony) and even the current Samsung. Thank you Paul!
What I appreciate most of all was your accurate observation of the absence of the infamous LCD blurring of motion. Its absence is a breakthrough for large LCD flat panels and cannot be over emphasized.

I run the Windows Xp display slide-show to show my digital camera pictures on the desktop. Wow! They are breathtaking! I will now compose future pictures to the 16:10 aspect ratio so that the center of the picture will be displayed on the 2335 without any stretching or distortion.

Could be as my display only supports 1280X1024. What resolution do you guys use when playing games on the L2335?

Originally posted by khomotso
Really? 1600x1200 has been pretty standard for FPS's for the last couple years now.

OTOH, I actually do not understand why so much video ram is actually needed.

VRAM is used by OpenGL and Direct3D (if memory serves.) You really only need a ton of VRAM if you are a game player or use OpenGL for scientific/engineering uses.

So again, I am surprised that the GeForce FX 5600 in the PC couldn't handle this monitor.

Is this via DVI? If so, perhaps that card does not support the reduce blanking method needed by the HP. From the F2304 manual: Preset mode 23, 1920 x 1200, is a new video resolution
mode developed for digital monitors that support DVI signal
input using reduced blanking techniques. Before selecting
this new video mode on the f2304 monitor and to avoid
images not displaying properly, refer to the documentation
that comes with the video graphics system to confirm if the
system supports this 1920 x 1200 reduced blanking mode.

FWIW, I am still in the process of installing an ATI 9600 in my PC to support the HP. What a pain.

Can you guys read text okay when surfing while running at 1920x1200?

Originally posted by (nl)
OTOH, I actually do not understand why so much video ram is actually needed. If you are running an L2335 in 1920x1200, then you have 2,304,000 total pixels. At the best color depth of 24 bits, you need therefore 3 bytes for each pixel, so you can store an entire screen image in 6,912,000 bytes.
Actually, most people and modern graphics cards use the 32bit setting, which includes one 8 bit channel for things like alpha blending. This means you'll need four, not three bites per pixel, totalling exactly 9000 KB for the entire desktop. As you said, you'll need extra memomy if you want to do things like overlay, and more importantly, page-flipping.
For office use, I should think 64MB should suffice. Bigger amounts of memory are likely to only be used when using textures, i.e. in a 3D enviroment, such as a 3D game.

You needn't be surprised by the awful waste of memory space these days. Remember the first PC's with 8MB Of total memory and 16MB of hard drive. The 10MB of RAM Drive was something college kids in the early 80's went crazy over! The entire Excel application was on 2 5.25" floppies, and it was not "zipped". Now, the Excel app needs 26MB's. XP Pro hundreds of MB's. This goes on and on.....

When I bought the Power Mac G4 back in 1999 with the "then" out of this world 22" Cinema Display for $3995 + $3499 or $7494, I marveled at how the gorgeous 22" 1600x1204 was driven by only 16MB of VRAM.

Now, 7K will get me a near custom VOODOO with no fan, a P4 at 3.4GHZ with the new Nvidia 6800 with 256MB VRAM. Enough to play ridiculously violent games on the 23" LCD and drive another 23" at full resolution. I can also run DDE links with Bloomberg, Yahoo business, and many other proprietary systems over a cable modem, etc. etc.

This is progress!



TROriginally posted by (nl)
In response to the earlier question, the Powermac G5 has 64 meg on its video card. Why it is that PowerMac G5's, marketed by apple for their graphics power, come with only 64Meg is another question. Still, as Paul commented earlier, Mac's seem to do more with less graphics hardware than PCs. I don't know why/how.

OTOH, I actually do not understand why so much video ram is actually needed. If you are running an L2335 in 1920x1200, then you have 2,304,000 total pixels. At the best color depth of 24 bits, you need therefore 3 bytes for each pixel, so you can store an entire screen image in 6,912,000 bytes.

Now, I have no expertise in current graphics programming techniques, but I woudl assume that modern graphics cards and APIs allow you to build images separate from the currently displayed image and overlay them so that animations, etc, can be done faster - and I assume that's what the additional memory is useful for. Still, with only 7MB needed for the image, 64MB should be plenty and I wouldn't expect to see that much of a performance boost by going to 128 - nor would I expect that to impact on image quality or ability to deliver the image to the monitor at a high enough rate to avoid the sparkles, etc, seen on the F2304 with the nVidia card.

BTW: The PowerMac G5 is, according to apple, able to drive 2 23" cinema displays with the standard nVidia or ATI cards (nVidia is a Geforce FX 5200, ATI is a Radeon 9600), both having 64MB. So again, I am surprised that the GeForce FX 5600 in the PC couldn't handle this monitor.

nl

Thanks for the kind words!

Someone mentioned here that he simply moves the mouse pointer violently over the desktop to test for blurs. That's actually another excellent method!

Paul


Originally posted by softengr
Paul,
You have spent considerable time documenting superiority of the L2335 to previous LCD panel generations (Apple, Sony) and even the current Samsung. Thank you Paul!
What I appreciate most of all was your accurate observation of the absence of the infamous LCD blurring of motion. Its absence is a breakthrough for large LCD flat panels and cannot be over emphasized.

I run the Windows Xp display slide-show to show my digital camera pictures on the desktop. Wow! They are breathtaking! I will now compose future pictures to the 16:10 aspect ratio so that the center of the picture will be displayed on the 2335 without any stretching or distortion.

I finally bought a JVC HM-DH40000U D-VHS deck and played some 1080i tapes on the L2335, through the component inputs. Matrix Reloaded look great, all the "black" action sequences showed no blurs or distortions of ANY sort. And the BLACK looks super, almost as good as my Fujitsu. The Fujitsu still have a little edge, as blacks still a tad more liquid or metallic on a Fujitsu plasma. At 45 degrees, with the 1080i D-VHS source, the blacks in Matrix Reloaded still did not look grey. I am happy.

An hour into the Matrix Reloaded, at the portion where Neil battles the 100 Smiths, the L2335 had absolutely no problems following the fast action. The black suits are all distinquishable from each other. You all have to see this, I highly recommend you find a D-VHS tape!

If any of you are in the NYC area, I would be glad to show my panels to the dedicated!

Soon, I will connect the 1394 jack of the JVC 40K to a Samsung T165, and take the DVI outputs of the Samsung into the L2335. This will correct the aspect ratio to 100% without those annoying right and left borders.

I will report if this is in fact the case over the next few days.

Paul

I have a Sony 23".

Runs at 1920x1200 fine on my GF4 Ti4200 with 128mb. You do not need a super powerful card to do so. Just get some stable drivers and you are set.

For monitor the colours are great and the text razor sharp.

For gaming it isn't great but I don't game.

For movies it is good imo.

The L2335 looks good also. I've done a few search's and haven't been able to find it for sale in England and I wonder a UK price?

Koing

FWIW, I am returning my F2304 because I just can't get it to work with all three of my OS partitions (WinME, Win2K and WinXP) on my three year old system. This is not a problem with the monitor -- just my system/video card.

I bought an ATI 9600SE video card but after spending the entire weekend trying, could not get it to work on my ASUS CUSL2-C MB under Win2k (worked under WinME.)

Larry,

Would you have considered just wiping out the entire hard drive and just use one OS, say Win XP. Then install that 9600 card?

Radical, but perhaps some drivers were screwed up within those partitions.

Paul



Originally posted by Larry Hutchinson
FWIW, I am returning my F2304 because I just can't get it to work with all three of my OS partitions (WinME, Win2K and WinXP) on my three year old system. This is not a problem with the monitor -- just my system/video card.

I bought an ATI 9600SE video card but after spending the entire weekend trying, could not get it to work on my ASUS CUSL2-C MB under Win2k (worked under WinME.)

Originally posted by Larry Hutchinson
FWIW, I am returning my F2304 because I just can't get it to work with all three of my OS partitions (WinME, Win2K and WinXP) on my three year old system. This is not a problem with the monitor -- just my system/video card.

I bought an ATI 9600SE video card but after spending the entire weekend trying, could not get it to work on my ASUS CUSL2-C MB under Win2k (worked under WinME.)
I went through the exact same ordeal about 6 months ago. It is an incompatibility issue with the ATI cards and older motherboards. Wiping the disk does not help. The screen goes black, except for the cursor! My old Nvidia 4200 works flawlessly generating a DVI signal at 1920*1200 @ 60Hz.

I was considering upgrading to the AMD 939 socket CPU, but AMD CPU pricing is ridiculous ($500-800!). I'll probably buy a new Intel board/CPU >3GHz instead, later this summer.

Viewing High Definition Dvds
------------------------------------
Alan started a thread about 6 months ago and stated how fantastic the Coral Sea WMD 9 DVD looked. I bought the disk, but cannot play it back smoothly, even at 1024*768. I currently use a 2.1GHz P4. My goal is to be able to play back Windows WMD HD 9 media at 1920*1080p @ 60Hz resolution. Has anyone viewed WMV 9 DVDs (using DVI connection) on these new HP monitors? It certainly must be a picture to die for...

A three year old PC is just about obsolete and certainly lacks the horsepower to run todays multimedia applications. It's a shame that Larry has decided not to upgrade his system.

Would you have considered just wiping out the entire hard drive and just use one OS, say Win XP. Then install that 9600 card?

Nope. I need all three OSes for testing (I am a programmer) and my Wife uses the WinME partition.

The HP was only a little bigger than my current monitor (a Philips 1600x1200 LCD) but it would have looked cool sitting side by side with my Mac cinema 23" display.

The problem with the ATI was that it kept comming up as two Display adapters, both unknown. I must have restored the partition from a Ghost image and swapped video cards in and out a dozen times. My attempt to update the chip-set drivers resulted in no version number change for the AGP subsystem (which I suspect is the problem.)

A three year old PC is just about obsolete and certainly lacks the horsepower to run todays multimedia applications. It's a shame that Larry has decided not to upgrade his system.

I don't actually run any multimedia on this system. It is just for software development. It has a 1GHz P3 which is about the same power as a 1.8 GHz P4.

Well, I certainly would appreciate some advice from those who have wrestled with teh L2335 so far.

Mine arrived today. Upon unpacking, I was concerned that perhaps they shipped me a refurb unit - because it came with the VGA cable already attached to the monitor, which is something that I have not seen before. I'd be curious (although that's not the main point of this post) to know if others have had this happen. I am surprised to see a refurb unit this early in the production run of this monitor.

My main problem, however, is absolutely horrible flashing horizontal lines, the sort of thing report here as needing adjustment of the vertical refresh.

Now, I've looked at the presumably equivalent HP F2304 at CompUSA and seem the same problem, but orders of magnitude less than what I am seeing, and this was on a system using an nVidia Geforce FX 5600 with 64 MB ram. When the same monitor was carried over and hooked up to a PowerMac G5, no such problem, so it made sense to me that this was due to the video card and not the monitor.

Anyway, my current system is a P4 based homebuilt (Asus P4P800Deluxe motherboard). THe video card is ATI Radeon 7500 with 32MB ram - so I am certainly of the mind that this card simply cannot drive this monitor.

I use Linux, so my monitor adjustments have been via editing my XF86Config-4 file, and although I've tried to get the vert refresh down to <60Hz, I don't know if that is really happening or not. I should note that I have the same problem with lower resolutions as well, but it is possible that this card just cannot generate enough bandwidth (DVI) to handle the monitor.

I'd appreciate some thoughts if anyone has them. I am actually planning to use this monitor on a PowerMac G5, but wasn't going to buy it for a month in the hopes of price drops at the end of June. Since I have 30 days to return the monitor, I have to make some sort of decision on whether I have a flawed monitor or not relatively soon. I should note that the image, when not obscured by these flashes, is certainly nice and I would keep the monitor just on that basis.

Thanks for any thoughts!

nl

Unless the box was seriously re-taped. (Should be single taped on the outside), it's probably not refurbished. I had one delivered with that VGA cord attached as well. If the US Warranty paper is inside, you should be ok.

Everything else you said sounds like an underpowered video card.

If you have a HDTV source or DVD player, I highly recommend you connect these to the L2335 and test it out before your Apple comes.

Horizontal flashes simply does not happen with a HDTV tuner and external DVD players, from my experience so far.

Paul




Originally posted by (nl)
Well, I certainly would appreciate some advice from those who have wrestled with teh L2335 so far.

Mine arrived today. Upon unpacking, I was concerned that perhaps they shipped me a refurb unit - because it came with the VGA cable already attached to the monitor, which is something that I have not seen before. I'd be curious (although that's not the main point of this post) to know if others have had this happen. I am surprised to see a refurb unit this early in the production run of this monitor.

My main problem, however, is absolutely horrible flashing horizontal lines, the sort of thing report here as needing adjustment of the vertical refresh.

Now, I've looked at the presumably equivalent HP F2304 at CompUSA and seem the same problem, but orders of magnitude less than what I am seeing, and this was on a system using an nVidia Geforce FX 5600 with 64 MB ram. When the same monitor was carried over and hooked up to a PowerMac G5, no such problem, so it made sense to me that this was due to the video card and not the monitor.

Anyway, my current system is a P4 based homebuilt (Asus P4P800Deluxe motherboard). THe video card is ATI Radeon 7500 with 32MB ram - so I am certainly of the mind that this card simply cannot drive this monitor.

I use Linux, so my monitor adjustments have been via editing my XF86Config-4 file, and although I've tried to get the vert refresh down to <60Hz, I don't know if that is really happening or not. I should note that I have the same problem with lower resolutions as well, but it is possible that this card just cannot generate enough bandwidth (DVI) to handle the monitor.

I'd appreciate some thoughts if anyone has them. I am actually planning to use this monitor on a PowerMac G5, but wasn't going to buy it for a month in the hopes of price drops at the end of June. Since I have 30 days to return the monitor, I have to make some sort of decision on whether I have a flawed monitor or not relatively soon. I should note that the image, when not obscured by these flashes, is certainly nice and I would keep the monitor just on that basis.

Thanks for any thoughts!

nl

Originally posted by (nl)

My main problem, however, is absolutely horrible flashing horizontal lines, the sort of thing report here as needing adjustment of the vertical refresh.


Most come with the VGA cable attached. There is a note somewhere in the manual that explains this. At least there was with my f2304:


Your f2304 monitor may have been shipped with the VGA
cable attached. This cable may be detached if you want to
use only a DVI cable instead.


Mine also had the blinking line problem, but the monitor notes that you may have to have a graphics card with reduced blanking.. again from the manual:


Preset mode 23, 1920 x 1200, is a new video resolution
mode developed for digital monitors that support DVI signal
input using reduced blanking techniques. Before selecting
this new video mode on the f2304 monitor and to avoid
images not displaying properly, refer to the documentation
that comes with the video graphics system to confirm if the
system supports this 1920 x 1200 reduced blanking mode.
If your digital graphics card provides the 1920 x 1200
digital resolution using a single DVI connector, then the
reduced blanking mode is supported


My ATI card has two settings:

"Reduce DVI frequency on high-resolution displays"
"Alternate DVI operational mode"

Once both were checked, the display worked fine.

Both Macs I tried with the monitor worked fine sans any software adjustment. As usual, with the Mac, stuff just works.

Keith

Thank you both for your prompt and reassuring comments.

Interstingly, this am there were NO horizontal flashes when I first turned on the monitor, but they are starting to appear now as I type. That's odd. The image on the screen now is quite clean, and like others I think this is one of the best images I've seen on a monitor of this size, so for now the monitor stays.

The box was single taped, so I feel better knowing that others have had the monitor shipped with the VGA cable attached. I haven't read the manual, which I assume is on the enclosed CD, because for other reasons my CD readers are disconnected from my system right now.

I know that mode 23 requires a reduced blanking interval, adn I am virtually certain that the 7500 does not support that, which hopefully explains the problem.

I'll try a DVD player tonight. Hopefully I can get that access door detached....

THe box was single taped as described. Inside is a "Worldwide Limited Warranty and Technical Support" booklet, in multiple languages, the first being English. There is no warranty card to return, but I don't recall getting such with any monitor I've bought so that's probably not an issue.

nl

As I had nothing better to do this afternoon. I played with powerstrip to see if I could reduce the horizontal flashes (we) are all getting with less powerful Windows based systems Video cards.

At over Horizontal refresh settings of 74.50hz and a vertical of 60hz, most if not all of the white horizontal flashes went away.

So, download Powerstrip, or buy the official version and set the "horizontal scan rates".

Paul