Correction!

The L2335 OSD tells me the horizontal is now 74.74HZ, Vertical 60HZ at Digital 1920x1200 and connected to a Dell D800 1.6G Centrino notebook with a Nvidia 4200GO 64MB Video card. The Notebook screen is turned off and the L2335 is the primary and only display.

As such, I believe you all should be okay running less powerful cards with powerstrip at those settings. Remember, try the horizontal custom settings in Powerstrip. I have Powerstrip 3.49 Build 438.

Paul

Left this thread awhile ago as I got a 1920 x 1200 laptop instead, but I'm now looking at the new Sharp 1920 x 1080 45 inch LCD computer/HDTV monitor...supposedly will retail for around $8K and debuts next month. Pricey, but should be one amazing HTPC experience.

Sounds freakin' awesome. 45" at 1920x1080 should blow those cheap 42-50" 1368x768 plasma away. Have you seen any prototypes?


Originally posted by Doc Tonic
Left this thread awhile ago as I got a 1920 x 1200 laptop instead, but I'm now looking at the new Sharp 1920 x 1080 45 inch LCD computer/HDTV monitor...supposedly will retail for around $8K and debuts next month. Pricey, but should be one amazing HTPC experience.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it blows away the plasma PQ. But, it may have the same ghosting all LCDs are somewhat plagued with. Either way, it will be one amazing computer monitor. I'm going to have to start sucking up to my wife really soon :)

Does HP have any newer models coming down the pipe? A dual DVI input monitor with HDCP compliant would be nice! I know the L2335 does do that but an official compatibility would be nice.

HDCP is becoming more of a reality as my brand new DVI front projector can no longer display HDTV...comcast pissed me off. So, I would definitely look into HDCP if you plan to use it for HDTV.

Oh NO!

Next could be me!



Originally posted by Doc Tonic
HDCP is becoming more of a reality as my brand new DVI front projector can no longer display HDTV...comcast pissed me off. So, I would definitely look into HDCP if you plan to use it for HDTV.

What is the point of HDCP anyways?

The point of HDCP is to make our consumer lives miserable....that and to theoretically protect Hollywood. Think of it as macrovision gone wild. I didn't believe HDCP a year ago when I bought my FP, but now that decision is haunting me.

Well, I haven't yet had a chance to hook up a DVD player. But, I have noticed the following things, which I relate because I'm still trying to reassure myself as to whether the problems I am experiencing are attributable just to an inadequate video card vs. a defective L2335.

Basically, here's some additional things which I have noticed:
1) The horizontal flashes, which are more like "snow" on a TV screen with a poor signal than just occasional flashes, clearly get worse as time goes on. If I power off the monitor for even a few seconds and turn it back on, they are lessened for a while, but then increase again. That somehow seems to me to be more indicative of a monitor problem than the video card, but I'm not sure.

2) I get no display UNLESS I am in a video mode. Eg, when I first power on the computer, I get no bios screen whatsoever, no bootspash, and none of the text mode display that is usually shown with a Linux boot. If I exit my X-server, I see no text display on the screen. Now, when I first hooked up the monitor that was NOT the case - I could exit the X server and get back to a command prompt. That no longer happens. I don't understand that at all.

3) I would have expected to be able to run in analog with the VGA cable at 1920x1200, but that is not the case either - I still have horizontal banding, and while I am not surprised that the Radeon 7500 cannot handle this res on DVI, I would have expected it to work on analogue.

4) I am not at all sure that I am adequately changing the horiz freq and vert freq with my modifications to my xfree config file; I don't understand mode lines well enough to convert to them from regular mode statements to ensure that i am setting these parameters directly, so the changes I am making may be having no effect whatsoever. However, the OSD right now says 1920x1200, horz freq 74.74 KHz, vert freq 60 Hz.

Any people smarter than me have some thoughts? I'd really hate to return a good monitor for the wrong reason, but of course I don't want to hang on to this thing if it really has a problem. I realize that the ultimate solution is to hook it up to a system with a better card than can handle it, but that's probably not going to be feasible for at least a few weeks for me.

nl

(n)ot (l)ucky,

Sorry bud, you're going through some trials.

1) Have you tried different cables? Are the nuts tightened? Trying to get the most mundane items accounted for....

2) This sounds like a computer/card problem as you should see something on the monitor.

3) Again, sounds like the card

4) Sounds like the L2335 got your instructions to change those rates. At least, that works.

conclusion: Let's try that DVD player at the component or DVI inputs! You do have 30 days, right?

Paul



Originally posted by (nl)
Well, I haven't yet had a chance to hook up a DVD player. But, I have noticed the following things, which I relate because I'm still trying to reassure myself as to whether the problems I am experiencing are attributable just to an inadequate video card vs. a defective L2335.

Basically, here's some additional things which I have noticed:
1) The horizontal flashes, which are more like "snow" on a TV screen with a poor signal than just occasional flashes, clearly get worse as time goes on. If I power off the monitor for even a few seconds and turn it back on, they are lessened for a while, but then increase again. That somehow seems to me to be more indicative of a monitor problem than the video card, but I'm not sure.

2) I get no display UNLESS I am in a video mode. Eg, when I first power on the computer, I get no bios screen whatsoever, no bootspash, and none of the text mode display that is usually shown with a Linux boot. If I exit my X-server, I see no text display on the screen. Now, when I first hooked up the monitor that was NOT the case - I could exit the X server and get back to a command prompt. That no longer happens. I don't understand that at all.

3) I would have expected to be able to run in analog with the VGA cable at 1920x1200, but that is not the case either - I still have horizontal banding, and while I am not surprised that the Radeon 7500 cannot handle this res on DVI, I would have expected it to work on analogue.

4) I am not at all sure that I am adequately changing the horiz freq and vert freq with my modifications to my xfree config file; I don't understand mode lines well enough to convert to them from regular mode statements to ensure that i am setting these parameters directly, so the changes I am making may be having no effect whatsoever. However, the OSD right now says 1920x1200, horz freq 74.74 KHz, vert freq 60 Hz.

Any people smarter than me have some thoughts? I'd really hate to return a good monitor for the wrong reason, but of course I don't want to hang on to this thing if it really has a problem. I realize that the ultimate solution is to hook it up to a system with a better card than can handle it, but that's probably not going to be feasible for at least a few weeks for me.

nl

Paul:

Thanks for your repeated efforts to help me. Not lucky is right! I think this is the first time I've had so much trouble getting a monitor working!

So far, I've rehooked it up with VGA. I powered down both computer and monitor and reconnected the cables, and on boot I now at least get my text mode boot information, so that's progress of a sort. I still didn't get the bios splash screen, but at least there's some progress. In retrospect, I may have switched the cables last night without first powering down the computer (dumb, I know) and I wonder if that is somehow connected with the inability to switch between graphics and text modes.

Anyway, I have this thing running at 1600x1200 with a VGA hookup, and that seems to be working. I have the impression of a little bit of screen flicker, but maybe that's my eyes being very tired at this point. I also noted that I need to reduce the brightness to 65; the default setting is way too bright for my eyes. No colored banding lines, however.

I cannot get my xf server to recognize the 1920x1200 mode right now, but that's an X problem that I need to work through.

I suspect that I was never getting the monitor into 1600x1200 when I was connected via DVI, because of the cable reconnecting thing above, so tomorrow night (too tired tonight) I will try reconnecting via DVI and see if I can get to 1600x1200 and see how that looks. If it looks good without the colored bands, I'll try the DVD player.

Again, thanks for the help, and also thanks for just listening!

nl

Just got my replacement L2335 from PC Connection -- no stuck pixels this time.

This display was definitely worth the wait. Brightness and color are excellent, as is response time. Slowly dragging a window with alternating white/grey/black will usually reveal the response time limitations of an LCD, but with the L2335 it looks almost as good as a CRT. I've not seen any of the display issues mentioned here, using 1920x1200 through DVI.

The only downsides I can see are (1) the black levels, while decent for an LCD, are far from outstanding (a Dell FP2000 has significantly better blacks), and (2) I had to wait a month and a half to get one!

By the way, to the poster who mentioned the VGA cable connected to the display -- most LCDs I have bought (over a dozen, including the L2335) come this way, presumably to make hookup more idiotproof. It doesn't mean it was refurbished.

What is the largest LCD monitor available with at least 1920x1080? Anything as big as 40"? Will we see such size at 1920x1080 anytime in the future? Thanks.

See this thread: Sharp 45" 1920x1080p LCD TV sightings? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=407605)

Hello,

I would like to purchase 6 of the HP L2335 for a multiple monitor setup (3 below, 3 above). I want to make sure my anticipated setup will support this:

My desktop is a a couple year old HP running Win 2000 at 1.3 Ghz. It will be replaced very soon but would like it to work with this setup in the mean time. For now, I would like to purchase 3 Matrix Millenium P750 video cards, each of which support 2 monitors at resolutions up to 1600 x 1200 digital or 1920 x 1440 analog. This card only has 64 MB DDR memory.

http://www.matrox.com/mga/products/mill_pseries/p750.cfm

Primary application is surfing 6 different AVS forums simultaneously. OK, just kidding. Primary application for now is multiple regular applications spread across the monitors or basic 2D CAD spread among 4 with the other 2 for regular applications. NO games. One monitor will be used for video at times.

Should I anticipate any problems with this setup? *I want something good and workable. I am not expecting perfection with the current PC or video cards.*

Thanks for any advice.

Originally posted by QQQ
For now, I would like to purchase 3 Matrix Millenium P750 video cards, each of which support 2 monitors at resolutions up to 1600 x 1200 digital or 1920 x 1440 analog.
How are you going to put 3 AGP slot cards in one system? Or is there a PCI version out there too?

And why would you choose a video card with such weak DVI support? I have an almost 2 year old Gainward GeForce Ti4600 with dual DVI output, each of which can support 1920x1200 @ 60 Hz with no problem. Dual DVI isn't a common feature but you shouldn't settle for anything less.

Originally posted by nm88
How are you going to put 3 AGP slot cards in one system?
Well, that's EXACTLY why I'm asking the question :). I have not researched the issue at all other than posting a short thread here a few months back. I just looked inside of my PC and it appears I have only one AGP slot which is in use with the existing card. I had assumed there was an extra.

What are my options with an AGP card? Do I have to buy a computer that supports multiple 3 AGP cards? How many AGP cards do most new PC's support (two)?
And why would you choose a video card with such weak DVI support? I have an almost 2 year old Gainward GeForce Ti4600 with dual DVI output, each of which can support 1920x1200 @ 60 Hz with no problem. Dual DVI isn't a common feature but you shouldn't settle for anything less.
I chose this card because this is something I wanted to do this weekend and the video cards are not special order. The video cards are also very reasonably priced and I'm going to replace the PC anyhow. They will become someone elses when I upgrade.

If I get rid of my sound card, which I would be willing to do as a short term solution, I would have two free PCI slots. Then if I could find a reasonably priced PCI card that supports dual monitors I'd be set (for 4 monitors).

Originally posted by QQQ
Then if I could find a reasonably priced PCI card that supports dual monitors I'd be set (for 4 monitors).
Dual monitors shouldn't be a problem, there are many PCI cards with dual outputs in the $50-100 range using lower-end chipsets like the Radeon 7000 or 9200 or Nvidia MX440 chipsets. However, as far as I've seen, they are all DVI/VGA, no DVI/DVI. There are too many to list here, but if you use Newegg's search feature and check PCI, you will see most of them.

Even getting DVI/DVI in an AGP model is rare, but there are a few out there with higher end chipsets. You can see these in Newegg too by searching under DVI outputs = 2.

That way, assuming 3D performance is irrelevant for you, you could spend about $300 on video cards and have 4 running through DVI and put the two least important ones on analog.

Originally posted by nm88
Dual monitors shouldn't be a problem, there are many PCI cards with dual outputs in the $50-100 range using lower-end chipsets like the Radeon 7000 or 9200 or Nvidia MX440 chipsets. However, as far as I've seen, they are all DVI/VGA, no DVI/DVI. There are too many to list here, but if you use Newegg's search feature and check PCI, you will see most of them.

Even getting DVI/DVI in an AGP model is rare, but there are a few out there with higher end chipsets. You can see these in Newegg too by searching under DVI outputs = 2.

That way, assuming 3D performance is irrelevant for you, you could spend about $300 on video cards and have 4 running through DVI and put the two least important ones on analog.

I sure can't find any (on Newegg or anyplace). If you look at CDW's site you;ll see what I'm finding when it comes to dual PCI cards:
http://www.cdw.com/shop/search/results.aspx?grp=MMI

It seems as though most of the higher end cards are AGP but PC's can't have more than one AGP card? But the PCI cards seem much more expensive to get the same thing you can get with a much cheaper AGP card (at least going strictly by the specs) - certainly if we're talking about dual output cards.

Now I'm wondering if the best value would be to go with a single AGP card and 3 single PCI cards (I can trash the PCI modem and sound card and go with external USB models). Looks like that might offer the nest performance and good value. I'm open to more suggestions...

I'm now thinking about one Matrox Parhelia 256MB (AGP) and one 256MB PCI (budget is moving up ;)) for four monitors:
http://www.matrox.com/mga/products/home.cfm

Comments?

I have used Matrox cards and their performance (speed) is not great. Quad-head cards tend to use older graphics processors in order to fit 2 (or 4) chips onto a card. Here's I'd do if I needed 6 monitors (from high price to low):

1) Wait for the Alienware X2 motherboard that has 2 PCI-Express Graphics (PEG) slots. Get 2 PEG cards with 2 DVIs each. Then run the remaining 2 displays using a PCI card like nVidia Quadro FX 600 PCI.

1a) Someone will probably come out with a PEG card with 4 heads. Get one of these and 1 PEG with dual-head.

2) Get a dual-head AGP card and 2 dual-head PCI (all with DVI-I)
* AGP (do a filter search on newegg.com for 2 DVIs)
- Quadro FX 4000/3000/2000/1100 (AGP)
- Geforce 6800 (make sure it has 2 DVIs)
- Geforce FX cards
- ATI Fire GL
* PCI
- Quadro FX 600 PCI
- Quadro NVS 200
- Colorgraphic.net

Hello All -

Just wanted to confirm some concerns others have had with the L2335.

When I received my monitor, it also had the VGA cable pre-installed - no big deal.

I have an ATI All in Wonder Radeon (which I believe is a Radeon 7200 with 32MB of RAM) and am getting the horizontal flashing on darker colored backgrounds. I plan on upgrading video cards to resolve this issue. Does anyone know if a video card with 64MB of RAM (ie Radeon 7500 with 64 MB or Radeon 8500DV) would work? I could also look into a Radeon 8500 with 128MB RAM just to be sure. I'm not a gamer, so that would not be a factor.

Lastly, I'm also looking at a HDTV pci card for this thing. I have a MyHD 120 running in my HTPC setup, but am thinking about a Fusion III for this montior. Any confirmation what works with this monitor?

Thanks

To HP L2335 owners, are you satisfied with your monitor? I am really considering buying one. Any of you using the HD component plugs? I really want to use that versus buying a switch and using the DVI for the computer and component for the HDTV.

Originally posted by Kamakzie
To HP L2335 owners, are you satisfied with your monitor? I am really considering buying one. Any of you using the HD component plugs? I really want to use that versus buying a switch and using the DVI for the computer and component for the HDTV.
I really like it as a computer monitor, but I don't think it's good for an HDTV due to lack of proper deinterlacing, see my comments here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=384608. By the way, there are no component inputs, just DVI and 15-pin VGA. I don't recall seeing a menu option for recognizing component video from the VGA input, but I could be wrong about this.

If you press the input button to cycle through the inputs there is a menu option for recognizing component through VGA.

Edit: I guess I missed the component inputs as indicated by Paul below since I had no reason to look for them. Should have occured to me there had to be some hidden inputs since an option for composite and S-Vid also comes up on the input menu.

The component inputs are on the side, behind a trap door that is rather hard to open. There are S-Video and composite inputs alongside the component inputs inside that compartment.

You can cycle through the various inputs through the front panel selection button. DVI (digital), DVI (analog), S-Video, Component video, composite, and VGA.

The part on "interlacing" sounds like someone who has not view the L2335 or F2304 in person. Once you connect the 2 monitors to a HDTV tuner, a D-VHS VCR, or a Sencor hard drive, you would find it quite difficult to find fault with these 2 screens. Frankly, you probably have "never" seen anything as fine as these 23" LCD's. Maybe the 50" Fujitsu plasmas are better, but they are nearly 5 times more money.

Paul




Originally posted by nm88
I really like it as a computer monitor, but I don't think it's good for an HDTV due to lack of proper deinterlacing, see my comments here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=384608. By the way, there are no component inputs, just DVI and 15-pin VGA. I don't recall seeing a menu option for recognizing component video from the VGA input, but I could be wrong about this.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
The part on "interlacing" sounds like someone who has not view the L2335 or F2304 in person.
I'm looking at one right now. :D When I feed a 1080i input through the DVI input, there are combing artifacts. It almost looks as if it isn't deinterlacing at all. (I'd post a sample photo but there are no HDTV broadcasts right now.) A 720p input looks great, however. Is there some setting I missed to fix the interlacing problem? Or are you using another input?

Interesting about the trap door, that's an odd place to hide input connectors. Do I have to remove the big plastic rectangular shield on the stand to get at it?

88,

Your "combing artifacts", are they spherical or elliptical in actual? If there are no "HDTV broadcast right now", what 1080i signal are you using? I have now used 4 different L2335 and F2304 and have not seen interlacing with the Scientific Atlanta 3250HD cable box with DVI.

The trap door is simply a little tabbed black plastic part out there in the open, not hidden. It's illustrated in the owner manual. Check you owner CD or look in the HP.COM site.

Paul

Originally posted by nm88
I'm looking at one right now. :D When I feed a 1080i input through the DVI input, there are combing artifacts. It almost looks as if it isn't deinterlacing at all. (I'd post a sample photo but there are no HDTV broadcasts right now.) A 720p input looks great, however. Is there some setting I missed to fix the interlacing problem? Or are you using another input?

Interesting about the trap door, that's an odd place to hide input connectors. Do I have to remove the big plastic rectangular shield on the stand to get at it?

Paul,

We're experts. We don't read owners manuals ;).

Piggie,

Apparently, HP agrees, as the manual is in the enclosed CD-ROM. No expensive printed media.

Paul




Originally posted by QQQ
Paul,

We're experts. We don't read owners manuals ;).

So what you guys are saying is that nm88 is a rare case and I shouldn't be afraid to use this monitor as a HD display?

Buy it from a shop with a 30 day money back policy and you wouldn't have to trust anyone here.

Paul


Originally posted by Kamakzie
So what you guys are saying is that nm88 is a rare case and I shouldn't be afraid to use this monitor as a HD display?

is the L2335 sold at any Brick and Mortars like Best Buy etc? If not is there any good stores with no restock fee's?

The following article probably got some of their LCD information from this thread:

Quote:
Not that LCD TVs don't have flaws. Until recently, almost all LCD panels suffered from slow response times. The individual pixels on the screen couldn't change color and brightness fast enough to keep pace with the frantic action in many movies and sporting events. The lag can produce jittery or blurry video, particularly during sudden action. In addition, most LCDs used to fall behind traditional CRTs and plasma TVs in their ability to display true colors. Skins tones or subtle shades of gray might show visible artifacts, particularly when viewing from extreme angles.


Peddie says that engineers have solved both these issues, but consumers need to do their homework when buying a LCD TV. Many models currently offer response times of 25 to 30 milliseconds, but the best ones will refresh pixels as quickly as 16 milliseconds. Make sure to check the manufacturer's specs, and if possible, watch the TV in a store to see how it handles action-packed sequences.

Full article:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ttpcworld/20040602/tc_techtues_pcworld/116348&cid=1740&ncid=1729

Well if I understand things correctly most LCD TV's have a 1280x768 resolution at most and a 25ms refresh. So it seems the L2335 and the F2304 would be fast superior at 16ms.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
As I had nothing better to do this afternoon. I played with powerstrip to see if I could reduce the horizontal flashes (we) are all getting with less powerful Windows based systems Video cards.

At over Horizontal refresh settings of 74.50hz and a vertical of 60hz, most if not all of the white horizontal flashes went away.

So, download Powerstrip, or buy the official version and set the "horizontal scan rates".

Paul
I just got a 2335 a couple of days ago and using with a Radon 7500 card. Was having the static horizontal lines issue. Installed PowerStrip and the problem is 100% cured. My ideal setting for horizontal scan rate is 74.389KHz and 60.234Khz refresh rate.

Also I found the factory 6500 degree setting to be to cool (high). I have brightness set to 55, color R 50, G 50, and B 40. This looks a lot more like 6500 to me.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
If there are no "HDTV broadcast right now", what 1080i signal are you using? I have now used 4 different L2335 and F2304 and have not seen interlacing with the Scientific Atlanta 3250HD cable box with DVI.
Sorry, was real tired while writing that. I was actually using the VGA input, not the DVI input, to test it, using the output from my HiDTV Pro card at 1920x1080 at both 59.94 and 60 Hz to test it. Not sure if VGA versus DVI will make a difference. The artifacts looked almost exactly like the panel was not deinterlacing -- I could see the separate fields being displayed during motion. I tested it for about 2 minutes using a 1080i sports program and a 1080i upconverted SD program. When I switched the HiDTV Pro to 720p output (letting the card do the deinterlacing and rescaling), everything was perfect.

My Samsung TS160 STB is in another level of the house, but if I can find time later on I'll try to hook it up to the 2335 using both VGA and DVI to see if I have the same problem. The problem could be related only to the HiDTV Pro output, as that card isn't exactly bug-free.

I see the trap door now. When I first hooked up the panel, I glanced at it and wondered why an LCD would need a battery compartment. ;)

88!

There is a W O R L D of difference between the video signal of a VGA and a DVI input. I am not sure what is the highest VGA resolution possible (now), but DVI is capable of 1080i and as high as 1080p right now.

I know that DVI-i from PC can go even higher still.

Paul


Originally posted by nm88
Sorry, was real tired while writing that. I was actually using the VGA input, not the DVI input, to test it, using the output from my HiDTV Pro card at 1920x1080 at both 59.94 and 60 Hz to test it. Not sure if VGA versus DVI will make a difference. The artifacts looked almost exactly like the panel was not deinterlacing -- I could see the separate fields being displayed during motion. I tested it for about 2 minutes using a 1080i sports program and a 1080i upconverted SD program. When I switched the HiDTV Pro to 720p output (letting the card do the deinterlacing and rescaling), everything was perfect.

My Samsung TS160 STB is in another level of the house, but if I can find time later on I'll try to hook it up to the 2335 using both VGA and DVI to see if I have the same problem. The problem could be related only to the HiDTV Pro output, as that card isn't exactly bug-free.

I see the trap door now. When I first hooked up the panel, I glanced at it and wondered why an LCD would need a battery compartment. ;)

nm88, let me know when you get your HD hooked up via component or DVI. I want your updated opinion. :)

Just an update on the deinterlacing problems -- it looks like the problem is related to the HiDTV Pro card and not the monitor.

I hooked it up to the Samsung TS160 while watching 1080i CBS. Both VGA and DVI deinterlaced the video properly, although the VGA input recognized the signal as 1804x1015 (with a softer image) while DVI recognized it properly as 1920x1080 with a razor-sharp image. My best guess is that the HiDTV Pro's output is borked somehow and the 2335 isn't recognizing it properly and not deinterlacing sometimes.

With that issue out the way, the panel will do just fine as an HDTV. The only negative I see left is the black level, which might trouble you if you do a lot of viewing in a darkened room. It is not very noticeable, however, with room lights on.

nm88, thanks for the update. I am hoping Best Buy has a 2 yr same as cash deal again soon. I have a 10% off coupon I can use from June 11-14 so I would just get the F2304. However most likely they won't have a SAC offer on monitors so it won't matter. :(

A L E R T !!!!!

The L2335 and F2304 are not HDCP compliant.

While my Scientific Atlanta 3250HD cable box with (suppostedly) HDCP enabled DVI works with the L2335's DVI-D input. When I connected a Samsung T165 tuner to convert a 1394 D-VHS recording off the JVC HM-DH40000U, it did not work. I am pretty sure it is not the copy protection that is at fault. I believe the original material I recorded off TWC, off the 1394 of the 3250HD box is HDCP encoded. As it is played by the JVC D-VHS and transfered through the Samsung tuner. Something in the Samsung recognizes that the source requires a HDCP monitor. All we see on the L2335 was snow. At pauses or stoppage of D-VHS play, you see a freeze frame of the D-VHS. This alone makes for more mystery.

Sorry for the bad news.

Will the component HD inputs always work?

As far as I know, the billionaires in Hollywood has not figure out a way to encrypt analog signals yet. I can play my D-VHS recordings through the 3x component inputs; yes.



Originally posted by Kamakzie
Will the component HD inputs always work?

Well it does suck for you guys that really want DVI. Maybe its because I have always used the component on my HD TV because that is all it has. I guess I would need to see the difference in picture quality. I wish someone could take a picture of the difference.

I just bought the HP L2335 tonight ... maybe i should cancel the order?

i also bought the Fusion 3 HDTV Gold with QAM

i should have no problems watching OTA hdtv and possibly some QAM from the cable tv we have ( no digital cable or hdtv.. just bare bones package)

i plan on using it as a PC monitor mainly and as my first HDTV taste.. maybe hook it up to the gamecube, xbox, or ps2....

i do alot of gaming.. well not right now because im waiting for my ATI x800 xt to be available

so hopefully this new development will not affect my usage.

any opinions would be a great help

I see the 2335 just dropped on one site to $1619.00 shipped new.

HEH... 1619.68 to be exact :P

thats where i bought it.. the other place i was looking at jumped their price up to over 1800 for it ....

they supposedly had 23 i think in stock...

Originally posted by Kamakzie
Well it does suck for you guys that really want DVI. Maybe its because I have always used the component on my HD TV because that is all it has. I guess I would need to see the difference in picture quality. I wish someone could take a picture of the difference.
The L2335 samples analog pretty well, but there is still a marked difference. Compare the top half of the attached photo (analog input) to the bottom half (digital input), and the difference is obvious: digital is much sharper, has better color saturation and contrast, and less noise.

Moving video is a lot more forgiving than a static computer display, but when viewed through the analog input, it will still have more noise, lower contrast, and an overall "softer" image. It won't look bad though, especially when viewing from a distance (e.g., 3-4 feet) instead of 1-2 feet.

Besides, lack of HDCP doesn't mean no HDTV through DVI. You can always view OTA content and I haven't hit upon an HDCP-enabled program on DirecTV yet. I'm not sure on the current status of HDCP, but last I read in the HDTV forum, virtually nothing uses it yet.

Originally posted by nm88

Besides, lack of HDCP doesn't mean no HDTV through DVI. You can always view OTA content and I haven't hit upon an HDCP-enabled program on DirecTV yet. I'm not sure on the current status of HDCP, but last I read in the HDTV forum, virtually nothing uses it yet.

Sadly, I just lost the use of my FP with DVI last week by comcast. They JUST IMPLEMENTED HDCP...sucks for me, because I only had 3 weeks to enjoy my HDTV with DVI. Others in my area are also complaining on the board. I can still watch HDTV, but just can't use DVI and it was a very noticable difference (on a 130 inch screen). When I bought my FP a year ago, I thought HDCP was only a "myth" and that it may never become a reality. The day I turned on my FP and no signal came out of the DVI port, that "myth" became my nightmare...

It's no myth. But they do behave in strange ways. A HDCP infected movie in HBO-HD (Channel 701 with TWC-NYC) may play perfectly at 1920x1080 on the L2335/F2304 with the DVI-D. This changes mysteriously once recorded with a D-VHS VCR, as the playback of this recording becomes "snow" when converted with the Samsung T165 tuner (a converter of 1394 into DVI-D).

Paul



Originally posted by Doc Tonic
Sadly, I just lost the use of my FP with DVI last week by comcast. They JUST IMPLEMENTED HDCP...sucks for me, because I only had 3 weeks to enjoy my HDTV with DVI. Others in my area are also complaining on the board. I can still watch HDTV, but just can't use DVI and it was a very noticable difference (on a 130 inch screen). When I bought my FP a year ago, I thought HDCP was only a "myth" and that it may never become a reality. The day I turned on my FP and no signal came out of the DVI port, that "myth" became my nightmare...

I haven't heard of the new HD TiVo doing this.... yet...

I am not sure whether HD tivo allows for downloading to D-VHS. If it can, I am sure HDCP will be activated.


Originally posted by Kamakzie
I haven't heard of the new HD TiVo doing this.... yet...

OK i am really confused. So HDCP is only activated if you rip a show to DVHS and try to play it back but if you record it on the HD Tivo then and play it back then HDCP isn't applied?

I may be confusing HDCP with copy protection or the copy protection encoded into the scheme. As I experienced it, I can play on the L2335 via its DVI port, from a HDCP capable Scientific Atlanta 3250HD cable tuner box. But as soon as I recorded off it from the 1394 port, and connect the VCR to a Samsung HDCP capable tuner box, the output from the Samsung DVI can no longer be viewed on the L2335. Get this?

I think you are as confused as I am. Others too for sure.

Paul


Originally posted by Kamakzie
OK i am really confused. So HDCP is only activated if you rip a show to DVHS and try to play it back but if you record it on the HD Tivo then and play it back then HDCP isn't applied?

Hmmm weird. Not sure I want to invest in a long DVI cable and a Gefen 2x1 splitter if DVI will stop working for me HD TiVo someday because of HDCP. My guess is that HD via component with one to one enabled will look pretty good.

Go get a 4x1 Audio/Video swtich box from Radio Shack for $40 and use it as a 4x1 component video switcher. Get another box for the audio portion. I now have 4 of these combinations and feeding everything into my L2335's, including the kids' Xbox, PS2, Gamecube (all component video & S-Video), 2 computers (DVI), 3 cable boxes (DVI's and component video & S-video), and 2 universal players. The bottom of the desk look horrible. The magnetic field radiation is probably screwing me big time.

Paul



Originally posted by Kamakzie
Hmmm weird. Not sure I want to invest in a long DVI cable and a Gefen 2x1 splitter if DVI will stop working for me HD TiVo someday because of HDCP. My guess is that HD via component with one to one enabled will look pretty good.

Paul, do you know where on the radioshack site that device is?

This is the latest version:

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=15-1983

All you need is 3 RCA's for component video.

You'll need another switch box for the audio portion.

If you want to have remote control or automatic selection, then you'll have to pay serious money. As much as $1000.

Paul

OUCH! $20 isn't too bad without remote. This way I could use the monitor or my TV and switch. By the way those retailers selling the L2335 for $1619 jacked the price back up. :( Oh well I will try to hold out a little longer.

Paul, I just looked at the manual online for that RatShack gizmo and it does Yr, Br, C?

The back has 3 RCA type connectors, labelled R (Stereo right), L (Stereo left), and C (composite video). There is also a S-Video connector.

All you need to do is to remember which of the 3 RCAs will be used for your Y (say stereo right), which for Pb (say comnposite video), and which for Pr (say stereo left). Then you simply plug the right cable on the opposite end to the correct input on the L2335.

With this 4x1 Cheapo switch box, (with gold contacts, no less. Quite a value!) you can connect the L2335 to a HD cable box, a D-VHS VCR, a progressive scan DVD, and something else.

Any more questions?

Paul


Originally posted by Kamakzie
Paul, I just looked at the manual online for that RatShack gizmo and it does Yr, Br, C?

Nope thanks, I am all set. Now all I need to do is buy the L2335. Does the contrast ration of 350:1 on the L2335 and 500:1 on the F2304 make much of a difference comparing them?

The HP legal disclaimers say those figures can vary, and depending on which version you read, the L2335 has 500:1 for contrast ratio as well.

As far as I see, the contrast on the L2335 is much better than any of the other 23" high resolution computer LCDs available. Certainly better than the Sony and Apple 23" sets. I am not sure the F2304 and the L2335 share the same LCD and electronics, but they don't look all the different to me. I am very picky.

Paul

Originally posted by Kamakzie
Nope thanks, I am all set. Now all I need to do is buy the L2335. Does the contrast ration of 350:1 on the L2335 and 500:1 on the F2304 make much of a difference comparing them?

Paul, Have you ever compared the picture quality of HD content on the L2335 with HD content on a LCD TV? I would imagine since those LCD TV's do 1280x768 or 1024x1024 that the L2335 would have much better PQ?

I have seen the Sharp Aquos, up to 37". I have seen some LCD TV's connected to Dish TV playing Discover-HD, and they do not look as fine as the L2335 playing Discover-HD. The picture looks grainy on the Sharp sets, as they are scaling down the 1080i signal "down" into whatever lower resolution they are rated. They L2335 is simply scaling the slightly "up" to 1920x1200 when playing through component video inputs or 1:1 when using the DVI inputs. L2335/F2304 with a clean 1080i source has no peer. Only a bigger set with 1920x1080 can be better.

Originally posted by Kamakzie
Paul, Have you ever compared the picture quality of HD content on the L2335 with HD content on a LCD TV? I would imagine since those LCD TV's do 1280x768 or 1024x1024 that the L2335 would have much better PQ?

I bought a Zektor HDS-4 last year and am quite happy with it. Takes four component inputs, l/r audio and optical or coax digital audio, outputs the digital audio from all coax and/or optical inputs on both outputs (allows me to output the signal to optical on my receiver whether any given device supports only coax or both).

Doesn't come with a remote, but has extensively customizable IR commands set.

http://www.zektor.com/hds4/index.htm

Froogle search has several under $300

Has the aspect ratio of the analog inputs on the 2335 been addressed yet? I don't have a stand alone DVD player to test. Does (did) the 2304 have the same vertical stretch of 1.78 to 1.6 problem?

When I bought my 2335 I assumed it to be a replacement for the 2304. However it looks like the 2335 is a office product and the 2304 is a home product. What is the distinguishing characteristics that differentiate office from home HP products?

Originally posted by William
Has the aspect ratio of the analog inputs on the 2335 been addressed yet?
When I fed the VGA (analog) input a 1080i signal, it displayed it with proper aspect ratio, using the 1:1 mapping option in the menu.

Looking to buy optional speakers for LG L2320A HD LCD ~ any sources? Thanks Tom

Originally posted by nm88
When I fed the VGA (analog) input a 1080i signal, it displayed it with proper aspect ratio, using the 1:1 mapping option in the menu.
How about component input. Does 1:1 mapping work with it also?

I remember seeing someone saying they did that with component but a confirmation would be nice.


Originally posted by William
How about component input. Does 1:1 mapping work with it also?

Do any of you guys with F2304/L2335 have a PC HDTV-tuner?

Do you have trouble displaying full screen DxVA 1080i @WUXGA via a video card DVI output?

I ordered the Benq FP231W (http://www.benq.com.au/Showproduct.asp?prodID=242) quite some time ago and, after significant delay, have been informed that it should be arriving around 23-24th June.

I have a DVICO Fusion HDTV DVB-t driven by a 128mb 9200SE which I thought would be a nifty source for the monitor but this guy (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=412513) seems to be having trouble with his 243T/nvidia combo.

The FP231W is most likely an identical panel (LG-phillips LM230W02 (http://www.lgphilips-lcd.com/en/product/monitor.html?tg=view&idx=175)) to the HP 23" models & Philips equivalent (http://www.business.philips.com/productlaunchhome.aspx?productlaunchid=21).

I will be upgrading 9200SE to x800XT/PE when they become available in Australia.

I would seriously consider cancelling my order (for a 4:3 screen) if I can't fullscreen 1080i @WUXGA through DVI, since I do a lot of gaming and photoshop is still pretty good through UXGA.

Hey guys would this cable do a sufficient job for carrying HD via component?

http://www.trianglecables.com/25-foot-component-video-cable.html

Scratch that last question, I forgot I have a old cable that I used to send a HD signal from my MYHD PC card to my TV and now I don't need it so I can re-use it for this purpose. Well I took the plunge and ordered the L2335 from PCsuperdeals. Just wish I would of done it a couple of days ago when it was cheaper!

Originally posted by mizu
I have a DVICO Fusion HDTV DVB-t driven by a 128mb 9200SE which I thought would be a nifty source for the monitor but this guy (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=412513) seems to be having trouble with his 243T/nvidia combo.
That's a specific unresolved bug with the FX5900 and overlay at certain resolutions; it has nothing to do with the monitor. Newer cards shouldn't have a problem displaying 1920x1200 / 60 Hz through DVI. (The FX5900 doesn't have a problem with 1920x1200 either, it just has that bug with overlay.)
Originally posted by William
How about component input. Does 1:1 mapping work with it also?
If you search this thread, Paul Chiu was using component and 1080i, without problems apparently. I don't even own a component cable, though maybe I can dig up three composite cables...

LOL, guys I got a email with a tracking # and it says the package is 18 LBS. I checked HP's site and it says 30 LBS. I called the store and they said not to worry as there was no mistake. Could it be they skimp on the weight so they don't have to pay Fedex as much? :)

Kamakzie

at least you have a tracking number... i ordered my l2335 on the 10th and i still dont have a tracking number.

aparently when Page Computers says they have 23 in stock on their "real time availibility" stock tracker... it means "uh... these are wicked hard to find .... we will string you along for a couple of days untill we finally cant find one of the 23 we are supposed to have... so .. uh... we can "drop ship" one direct from HP for you"

GRRR!!! crappy Page Computers....

i still havent recieved my tracking number...
"i will e-mail you it tomorrow" worked once with me .. and they are trying it again.

sigh....

Hi all,

New to this forum, so excuse my ignorance. Anyway, on Monday I bought a BenQ FP231W at FutureShop for $2499 Canadian. The first unit I bought had more than 20 stuck-on pixels of all colours so I exchanged it for one that appears (so far) to have none. Anyway, I've posted some more impressions with picutres on ArsOpenforum, I'll have to post 3 msgs to get the URL since I'm new...


I think overall it is a very similar monitor to the HP L2335, it lacks component and pivot however. But, the HP is not available in Canada and I can buy the BenQ in store which gives me the opportunity to check for flaws and exchange easily. Overall so far I'm very pleased with this monitor, it replaces my Dell 2001FP that I was very happy with. The big difference is that the screendoor effect that was observable on some colours on the Dell is gone on this new panel.

Ok, msg #2...

#3

Ok, here (http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/ubb.x?q=Y&a=tpc&s=50009562&f=67909965&m=4190936913&p=178) is the link to my ArsOpenforum post, just scroll down a bit to see the pics and more impressions.

Armpit,

Thanks for the posts. Welcome.

Many here uses the 1920x1200 panels for HDTV, less for computer gaming. As such, having component video inputs and DVI input on the panel is crucial to the viewing of 720P and 1080i material.
$2500 CAD, what is that in USD?


This "greendoor" effect you are referring to, what exactly is it?

Paul

Originally posted by Betelgeuse
Ok, here (http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/ubb.x?q=Y&a=tpc&s=50009562&f=67909965&m=4190936913&p=178) is the link to my ArsOpenforum post, just scroll down a bit to see the pics and more impressions.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
Armpit,

Thanks for the posts. Welcome.

Many here uses the 1920x1200 panels for HDTV, less for computer gaming. As such, having component video inputs and DVI input on the panel is crucial to the viewing of 720P and 1080i material.
$2500 CAD, what is that in USD?


This "greendoor" effect you are referring to, what exactly is it?

Paul

Thanks Paul. $2500 CAD is about $1800 US.

Screendoor, not "greendoor" ;). It looks like a crosshatch or similar pattern on some colours, it's difficult to explain but it sort of looks like looking thru a door screen, never bothered me but bothers some (to me it looked more like dithering). As for HDTV, it is a shame the Benq does not have component input. I use the KD XBlaster to get 480p from my Gamecube, I'd imagine you could use this to hook up a DVD player although I haven't tried this myself yet.

The $30 USD component video cables from Nintendo finally arrived, and I connected my son's GameCube to the HP L2335 via a 4x1 component video cable switch box. The video through the component video inputs is a little more saturated and only a tiny bit sharper than the S-video Gamecube cables. Of course, both are better than the composite cables. The only strange thing is that the composite input will fill up the entire 1920x1200 when using "fill screen", while the other 2 input methods does not fill the L2335 completely; leaving a small left & right border. For those fearing screen burn ins, this may be an issue.

Otherwise, I recommend that you at least get the S-video connectors for your GameCube and BenQ.

At 16ms refresh, playing F A S T GameCube games like Mario Kart, Sonic Heros, and Soul Caliber II present no problems whatsoever! Quite gorgeous at 23"!

Paul




Originally posted by Betelgeuse
Thanks Paul. $2500 CAD is about $1800 US.

Screendoor, not "greendoor" ;). It looks like a crosshatch or similar pattern on some colours, it's difficult to explain but it sort of looks like looking thru a door screen, never bothered me but bothers some (to me it looked more like dithering). As for HDTV, it is a shame the Benq does not have component input. I use the KD XBlaster to get 480p from my Gamecube, I'd imagine you could use this to hook up a DVD player although I haven't tried this myself yet.

Well it looks like my L2335 will be delivered on Tuesday.

Aside from the stand and speakers - is there any difference with the 2335 and the 2304? I can't seem to find any, but the HP folks can't tell me if its the same panel or not. I think it must be.

I can get both at the same price. Although I'd rather the 2335 (I think) since I'll never use the included speakers, the 2304 can be here in 1 day - whereas it looks like I'll be waiting about a month on the 2335.

I did get a chance to check out a 2304 in my lab and my only complaint was that the blacks were not uniform. I downloaded a high res Matrix trailer and in some of the all black sceens there appeared to be blotching on the blacks. Quite poissibly it was the fact my laptop was driving it as a second panel and it was just an MPG.

I will be using this 90% for computer use (mostly gaming) and a little TV/ DVD use.

So I guess my questions are:
Are there any better monitors in the 21"+ size for computer use?
If the price was the same, which would you get?

Thanks,
Mike

The F2304 is priced at around $2199.99 whereas the L2335 is priced anywhere from $1676-$1900+. I just ordered the L2335 so I know they are available you just have to look around. I believe the L2335 is basically the same model minus the speakers.

Are there great action games with 16:9 or 16:10 support? Will you get the ATI 9800 or Nvidia 6800 cards? If yes and yes, then get the L2335 and GAME away with a W I D E smile on your face.

If yes and no, you'd better off springing $1000 for that Dell 21" 15ms 4:3 panel that is the MaximumPC highest rated gaming LCD.

If no and no, AARGGHH!

If you can get the F2304 for the same price as the L2335, get it. Sounds like a great deal!

I recorded Matrix Reloaded on D-VHS and played it back through the component video inputs, and the blacks look glossy and ebony with no appearance of gray anywhere. DVI input does look a tad gray, so you might have to change the color settings if you are using the DVI inpu

Good luck,
Paul



Originally posted by PlasmicMike
Aside from the stand and speakers - is there any difference with the 2335 and the 2304? I can't seem to find any, but the HP folks can't tell me if its the same panel or not. I think it must be.

I can get both at the same price. Although I'd rather the 2335 (I think) since I'll never use the included speakers, the 2304 can be here in 1 day - whereas it looks like I'll be waiting about a month on the 2335.

I did get a chance to check out a 2304 in my lab and my only complaint was that the blacks were not uniform. I downloaded a high res Matrix trailer and in some of the all black sceens there appeared to be blotching on the blacks. Quite poissibly it was the fact my laptop was driving it as a second panel and it was just an MPG.

I will be using this 90% for computer use (mostly gaming) and a little TV/ DVD use.

So I guess my questions are:
Are there any better monitors in the 21"+ size for computer use?
If the price was the same, which would you get?

Thanks,
Mike

I get a 20% discount on the 2304 ... that's the only reason I'm looking at it. I'll check to find the availability of the 2335, I was really hoping to order direct from HP since I am comfortable with their return policy... they told me last week they are back ordered a few weeks.

Thanks,
Mike

WOW!

i just got my L2335!

this thing is freaking huge.. i don't know what i was really expecting but it just seems big.

first test shows 0 dead pixels

testing with WMV9 hd clips and they look great.
im getting a component cable for my gamecube monday so i will test with that also

a few channels i get in HDTV with my Fusion HDTV3 Gold qam card are great.

boy this thing sitting next to my old monitor makes it look even better. so much brighter and things just look like more the right color.

i have a component cable for my ps2 but i don't know when i will be able to test it with that.

so far no dvd test .. but i am free this weekend so i will test out some.

got T2 extreme edition here so i hope to test that also.

i am running it off of the dvi port of my geforce 4 ti 4400 for now but i will be upgrading that in about a month.

now i have a pentium 4 2.8 Ghz overclocked to 3.4 Ghz and the wmv9 clips seem to stutter a little bit some times right in the beginning.. im thinking its my video card... after i overclocked it a little they were better.

How do you test for dead pixels? I will do that when mine arrives if there is a test. I bet this thing is bigger than I am expecting but bigger is better eh? I can't wait to watch some HDTV on this mofo! I have UT2004 and I can't wait to play it in widescreen goodiness!

Mike, also keep in mind that the L2335 has a 3yr warranty and the F2304 is only a 1 yr.

Originally posted by PlasmicMike
I get a 20% discount on the 2304 ... that's the only reason I'm looking at it. I'll check to find the availability of the 2335, I was really hoping to order direct from HP since I am comfortable with their return policy... they told me last week they are back ordered a few weeks.

Thanks,
Mike

Originally posted by Kamakzie
How do you test for dead pixels? I will do that when mine arrives if there is a test. I bet this thing is bigger than I am expecting but bigger is better eh?
For stuck pixels, look at a totally black screen. For dead pixels, look at a totally white screen, or if you prefer, at individual red/green/blue screens. Any stuck/dead pixels should stand out easily.

If you don't have a way of displaying such screens already, you can download Milori's ColorFacts Test Patterns (http://www.milori.com/products/testpatterns/default.asp) to do it.

I wouldn't describe the L2335 as "big" at all. If anything, it looks fairly compact to me when compared to the usual 20-21" LCD, because the bezel is very slim. Nice, sleek look.

Lucky 88,

Nice program.


I highly recommend that none of you use it though, as you WILL see bad pixels with this program.

Somethings are better off not found!

Paul




Originally posted by nm88
For stuck pixels, look at a totally black screen. For dead pixels, look at a totally white screen, or if you prefer, at individual red/green/blue screens. Any stuck/dead pixels should stand out easily.

If you don't have a way of displaying such screens already, you can download Milori's ColorFacts Test Patterns (http://www.milori.com/products/testpatterns/default.asp) to do it.

I wouldn't describe the L2335 as "big" at all. If anything, it looks fairly compact to me when compared to the usual 20-21" LCD, because the bezel is very slim. Nice, sleek look.

Paul, is it true that some L2335's have 16ms refresh and some have 25ms?

When the L2335 specs were 1st posted in the HP business website, it was listed as 25ms. I am not sure when they revised it to 16ms.

I do not know how to tell on the unit itself.

Perhaps someone here knows of some program that can test the refresh rates.


Originally posted by Kamakzie
Paul, is it true that some L2335's have 16ms refresh and some have 25ms?

I would think all newer manufactored monitors would be the 16ms right? Or are they still producing the 25's?

The official US HP specs (http://h18004.www1.hp.com/products/monitors/performance/l2335.html) now say 16ms with a caveat footnote saying that the spec comes from the product manufacturer. HP's Hong Kong web site (http://h50025.www5.hp.com/hpcom/hk_en/12_27_61_259_P9615W.html) says 25ms.

Either there are two versions of the L2335 panel, or, more likely, HP doesn't have the slightest clue what the response time is. They do, after all, describe it as a 16:9 monitor on the US site. :rolleyes:

What is it actually 16:10?

Originally posted by Kamakzie
What is it actually 16:10? Yes, 1920/1200=1.6 or 16x10.

1920/1080=1.777... (1.78) or 16x9

A question that doesn't matter but I am just curious. Does the L2335 handle 480i and 480P or just 720P and 1080i?

Just curious if anyone has tried entering the service/factory menu on these HP monitors? Maybe there's some extra controls to fix whatever scaling issues people are having with HDTV. On older HP monitors, the service menu was usually accessed by holding either select or menu buttons while turning on the monitor. Not sure if that's still how it works on the new ones.

-Mark

@Betelgeuse

I know your frustration re the delayed ETAs in Canada. The same thing is happening to Australian ETA for FP231W. My ETA got pushed from 8th June to 23rd and now 30th! :/

The HP isn't available here so I guess the choice is made for me, since I want a 23" capable of gaming (16ms). Your gaming-oriented review has been very reassuring. One peculiarity I've noticed is that there are 2 variations of FP231W from what I've seen in pictures. I'll post them when I get back home. Also, on the Australian Benq site (http://www.benq.com.au/HomeShowDetailFeature.asp?prodID=242), it states that it CAN rotate. I'm hoping mine will be able to since I will be using it to read some portrait layout comics.
-------------
posted by ROCK off arsopenforum... (http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/ubb.x?q=Y&a=tpc&s=50009562&f=67909965&m=4190936913&p=179) (somewhere near the top)

To All:
Does anyone here have the 23" HP L2335 LCD monitor? Have you unscrewed (simple Philips screwdriver) the backpanel and looked inside at the Mfrs model # ? If you have the new fast 16ms version the last two digits are "02". The old slower 25ms version will end with digits "01".

Wouldn't that void the warranty when you take the back panel off?

Originally posted by mizu
Does anyone here have the 23" HP L2335 LCD monitor? Have you unscrewed (simple Philips screwdriver) the backpanel and looked inside at the Mfrs model # ? If you have the new fast 16ms version the last two digits are "02". The old slower 25ms version will end with digits "01". There is no obvious way I can see to open the back panel, short of prying the two plastic molded parts open with a screwdriver, which might destroy it. There are four screws but they just screw the base plate into the back.

The back sticker gives a manufacture date of March 2004 and "Rev GI001". It's an early model so if there are two versions, it's probably the 25ms one. Still, response time seems slightly better than a 25ms Dell FP2000 and there are no ghosting artifacts during normal usage. To see blurring I have to drag a black/grey/white window across the screen very quickly, or do a very fast 360 degree spin in a 3D game. It's certainly nothing I'd get worked up over, considering the hassle it took to get a defect-free panel in the first place (no dead/stuck pixels).

For reference, I ordered this one from PC Connection on April 12 and this, the second unit, was delivered on June 3.

To Paul Chiu and other L2335 owners, it would be helpful if you could post the revision and manufacture date for comparison.

Mizu,

Can you post a link where you found this information.

Thanks,

Paul

Originally posted by mizu
To All:
Does anyone here have the 23" HP L2335 LCD monitor? Have you unscrewed (simple Philips screwdriver) the backpanel and looked inside at the Mfrs model # ? If you have the new fast 16ms version the last two digits are "02". The old slower 25ms version will end with digits "01".

Paul,

Is my link broken in the previous post?

I followed Betelgeuse's link to a mammoth LCD thread on arsopenforum.

The thread is called "The definitive LCD thread" and the post is at the top of page 179 by ROCK

http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/ubb.x?q=Y&a=tpc&s=50009562&f=67909965&m=4190936913&p=179

Here's the post:
-------------------------------
"To All:
Does anyone here have the 23" HP L2335 LCD monitor? Have you unscrewed (simple Philips screwdriver) the backpanel and looked inside at the Mfrs model # ? If you have the new fast 16ms version the last two digits are "02". The old slower 25ms version will end with digits "01".

I ask because confusion reigns among vendors about this matter. If you ask them if HP L2335 (that they're selling) is new fast 16ms version or old slower 25ms version, they give different answers or just don't know.
IMO this is real bad. Because the people buying this "Big$$" monitor are assuming it is the new 16ms version. But is it so in ALL cases? Are some guys unknowingly getting "old leftover" 25ms version? Caveat Emptor!! ("let the buyer beware").

Just a suggestion for your consideration:
If you've already purchased, then OPEN rear of your HP L2335 monitor and see if # inside ends "01" or "02". If "01" you "might" be able to get exchange from vendor, since you have a solid argument in saying you paid premium $ "assuming" it had the new fast 16ms panel. This "might" work.

If you've not yet ordered then you're still in full control. Just reach a "definite understanding" with vendor about this matter BEFORE you click on "Submit Order" button.

Or simply buy from HP website (they'll ding you for State tax, yes. But some guys have posted that you can send monitor back, no penalty no excuse needed (if your examination showed it has old "01" 25ms panel). Since most vendors are clueless about whether they're selling you 16ms or 25ms panel and since most have 'return'/'refund' restrictions----the HP website might be safest lowest-priced place to buy HP L2335.
Yes, (according to some posters) HP sales dept is equally clueless about the "16ms/25ms" question----but you know you can return it if your exam shows its a 25. just consider HP's "State tax" as your insurance premium against getting shafted "

After reading the link mizu posted, I am not sure if we can trust ROCK and the assertion that a "1" means 25ms and a "2" mean something else.

What if there are other numbers? ROCK did not say where ROCK found this information. If HP doesn't even know, how would ROCK know. Is ROCK the OEM? ROCK did not say.

Paul



Originally posted by mizu
Paul,

Is my link broken in the previous post?

I followed Betelgeuse's link to a mammoth LCD thread on arsopenforum.

The thread is called "The definitive LCD thread" and the post is at the top of page 179 by ROCK

http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/ubb.x?q=Y&a=tpc&s=50009562&f=67909965&m=4190936913&p=179

Here's the post:
-------------------------------
"To All:
Does anyone here have the 23" HP L2335 LCD monitor? Have you unscrewed (simple Philips screwdriver) the backpanel and looked inside at the Mfrs model # ? If you have the new fast 16ms version the last two digits are "02". The old slower 25ms version will end with digits "01".

I ask because confusion reigns among vendors about this matter. If you ask them if HP L2335 (that they're selling) is new fast 16ms version or old slower 25ms version, they give different answers or just don't know.
IMO this is real bad. Because the people buying this "Big$$" monitor are assuming it is the new 16ms version. But is it so in ALL cases? Are some guys unknowingly getting "old leftover" 25ms version? Caveat Emptor!! ("let the buyer beware").

Just a suggestion for your consideration:
If you've already purchased, then OPEN rear of your HP L2335 monitor and see if # inside ends "01" or "02". If "01" you "might" be able to get exchange from vendor, since you have a solid argument in saying you paid premium $ "assuming" it had the new fast 16ms panel. This "might" work.

If you've not yet ordered then you're still in full control. Just reach a "definite understanding" with vendor about this matter BEFORE you click on "Submit Order" button.

Or simply buy from HP website (they'll ding you for State tax, yes. But some guys have posted that you can send monitor back, no penalty no excuse needed (if your examination showed it has old "01" 25ms panel). Since most vendors are clueless about whether they're selling you 16ms or 25ms panel and since most have 'return'/'refund' restrictions----the HP website might be safest lowest-priced place to buy HP L2335.
Yes, (according to some posters) HP sales dept is equally clueless about the "16ms/25ms" question----but you know you can return it if your exam shows its a 25. just consider HP's "State tax" as your insurance premium against getting shafted "

I also reply to ROCK's post upon examining his claims.

http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=50009562&f=67909965&m=4190936913&r=442004184631#442004184631

Here are the links to the supposdly LG panels that are inside the L2335.

First, the slower 25ms one:

http://www.lgphilips-lcd.com/en/product/monitor.html?tg=view&idx=124

Then, the faster 16ms part:

http://www.lgphilips-lcd.com/en/product/monitor.html?tg=view&idx=175

As you can see, they really do not make much sense on the size and weight combination.

The width of the 25ms one simply cannot fit into the L2335 casing.

Cheers,

Paul

Very interesting, I SHOULD be getting mine tomorrow.

Woohoo it's sitting in Toledo, OH!

Paul,

True, they were unverified claims with potentially risky treatment of the monitor involved. Hopefully the new replies to your post on the ars forum have shed light on the matter.

[quote]Originally posted by Kreed:
According to that link the LM230W01 is physically 550mm wide, which is wider then the HP's bezel. The LM230W02 is 523.4mm which would fit within that bezel nicely. Maybe the LM230W01 is in the HP 2304? [/quote}

It still doesnt make sense to me. If HP are really using the 25ms panel for the 2304, a lotta people will be pissed off that they payed more for it. It's all still a bit of a mystery.

Zac

I bet we would be able to get HP to RMA us a 16ms monitor if we have a 25ms one. But who knows.

To add to the 16/25ms confusion: on the [H] OCP's forums, there's a L2335 thread (http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=757963) where some claim there are no 25ms versions; excerpts follow.

-----------
posted by: ioman
Bizz Bum

This is what the HP PR rep told me when I showed him the spec sheet you guys posted:

"The spec sheet you have may be old. It is speced at a 16ms response rate. I have heard no contradicition from our labs or other reviewers."

I have faith in him since he has been 100% honest with me. Hopefully this is the case with this monitor!
__________________
Designtechnica.com

------------

Posted by: Tomji

I acctually was fully aware of the 16ms-25ms issue. My distribution even changed the spec sheet manually to 16ms when I called. (been confiremed to them by HP, as told)

So hopefully returning it wont be so hard since I have the emails a proof. I just cannot be sure it is in fact a 25ms panel. But I believe the 16ms LG panels werent in series in march so that might help me.

------------

Originally posted by nm88
Either there are two versions of the L2335 panel, or, more likely, HP doesn't have the slightest clue what the response time is. They do, after all, describe it as a 16:9 monitor on the US site. :rolleyes:
I'd say 99.9% of the people that work at/for HP haven't a clue what they are selling... as long as they are selling it. ;)

I can imagine calling HP marketing to tell them it's actually 16:10 and 16ms.
"Ehm, so you are saying our monitor is bigger and faster than advertised... So what is it you want from me?" :p

Well I got my monitor up and going and it's great! I just played UT2004 at 1920X1200 and it works without a hitch. I am using DVI of course!

way 2 go!

Welcome to the party!

Originally posted by Kamakzie
Well I got my monitor up and going and it's great! I just played UT2004 at 1920X1200 and it works without a hitch. I am using DVI of course!

Really!:)

Would like to know about 1900x1200 images to use with screen saver and wallpaper. I have joined and downloaded all of the 1920x1200 from digitalblasphemy (http://www.digitalblasphemy.com/dbhome.shtml) Widescreen Gallery site. Could some other 1900x1200 users post some links for images?

Hey guys when I open a media player video file the screen flickers for a couple of seconds. Is that normal or is that what you mean by needing to enable screen flickering fix?

Originally posted by William
Would like to know about 1900x1200 images to use with screen saver and wallpaper. I have joined and downloaded all of the 1920x1200 from digitalblasphemy (http://www.digitalblasphemy.com/dbhome.shtml) Widescreen Gallery site. Could some other 1900x1200 users post some links for images?
I found a couple of free sites here (http://www.graffitiwallpaper.com/index.php?size=6) and here (http://exoteric.roach.org/bg/).

So have I. Here (http://images.lunarpages.com/) and here. (http://wp.deviantart.com/?view=1&order=5&limit=24&res=22)

Paul and everyone. I hooked up my HD TiVo via component and selected one to one in the menu but it still fills the screen. I thought when you select one to one it has some of the screen thats black??? However the HD looks wonderful! One more thing I am getting a little tiny like reflection screen towards the top of the picture. Any idea how to get rid of it?

It's weird it almost looks like a small semi-transparent PIP screen but it only does it in 1080i mode when using my HD Tivo. When in 720P mode it looks fine. Do I lose a lot of quality when viewing 1080i content in 720p? Any ideas how to get rid of the little window in 1080i?

Try moving the PIP window away from the bottom edges, say a tad higher from the bottom.

As for the 1:1, try using the 2nd option, the "fill to aspect ratio" instead.



Originally posted by Kamakzie
It's weird it almost looks like a small semi-transparent PIP screen but it only does it in 1080i mode when using my HD Tivo. When in 720P mode it looks fine. Do I lose a lot of quality when viewing 1080i content in 720p? Any ideas how to get rid of the little window in 1080i?

Paul moving it did the trick. However which is the best to use? Fill to aspect or one to one? Both seem to still fill the screen.

It depends on the source. If you are watching 1080i HD material; use fill to aspect ratio for component inputs. Use fill to screen for 4:3 material for both component inputs and S-video input.

Use fill to screen if you fear screen burn ins.


Originally posted by Kamakzie
Paul moving it did the trick. However which is the best to use? Fill to aspect or one to one? Both seem to still fill the screen.

Boy this thing is on par with the LCD TV's displayed at Best Buy picture wise.

The best buy LCD TV's are no where as good from 3 feet. You should go back to confirm this as you now have a new reference point.




Originally posted by Kamakzie
Boy this thing is on par with the LCD TV's displayed at Best Buy picture wise.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
...Use fill to screen if you fear screen burn ins.
It is all but impossible to permanently burn in an LCD.

One more question. I am only using DVI Digital and Component video but when I hit the input button I have to go through all the unused inputs. Is there a way to only select two so when I hit the button I only see the 2?

No, but if you stumble onto something, do let us know.


Originally posted by Kamakzie
One more question. I am only using DVI Digital and Component video but when I hit the input button I have to go through all the unused inputs. Is there a way to only select two so when I hit the button I only see the 2?

Paul, I have attached a picture of HDNET when in 1080i and one to one. Shouldn't there be more black bar on the sides and the top and bottom or is this about right?

Ok, now you're just SHOWING off!

why don't you use fill to aspect ratio.

Also, try Discover-HD and PBS-HD.





Originally posted by Kamakzie
Paul, I have attached a picture of HDNET when in 1080i and one to one. Shouldn't there be more black bar on the sides and the top and bottom or is this about right?

OK, so fill to aspect would provide the better picture over one to one? What are the differences?

I'm not saying anything about "better picture". You ask for black bars. If HDNET is showing 1080i, then filled to aspect ratio should give you top & bottom black bars.

Have you tried it?

Can you get those other HD channels I mentioned?




Originally posted by Kamakzie
OK, so fill to aspect would provide the better picture over one to one? What are the differences?

First full web review (other than from "us") on the L2335:

http://reviews.designtechnica.com/review1695_intro8482.html

Try to ignore all the idiotic 1900x1200 resolution typos!

Paul

Originally posted by Kamakzie
Paul, I have attached a picture of HDNET when in 1080i and one to one. Shouldn't there be more black bar on the sides and the top and bottom or is this about right?
That is a stretched vertically picture and at an incorrect aspect ratio. You should have 60 black pixels on top and 60 black pixels on bottom for the aspect ratio to be correct. Your picture is showing 1.6 (16x10) when it should be 1.78 (16x9). I don't have a HD composite source to plug into my 2335 (do have a MyHD card in my HTPC hooked to my projector but would be a lot of trouble to hook my 2335 to it)so I can't check but would like to know for sure.

Will the 2335 do correct aspect ratio of 1.78 using the composite inputs? Will someone show a screen shot with the correct AR to prove it.

To William & KAMA-KAZEE

Here's my original posting after I got the HDTV cable box with DVI back in April (post 294 on this thread) It has photos of what 1080i should look like!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3767378#post3767378

Paul



Originally posted by William
That is a stretched vertically picture and at an incorrect aspect ratio. You should have 60 black pixels on top and 60 black pixels on bottom for the aspect ratio to be correct. Your picture is showing 1.6 (16x10) when it should be 1.78 (16x9). I don't have a HD composite source to plug into my 2335 (do have a MyHD card in my HTPC hooked to my projector but would be a lot of trouble to hook my 2335 to it)so I can't check but would like to know for sure.

Will the 2335 do correct aspect ratio of 1.78 using the composite inputs? Will someone show a screen shot with the correct AR to prove it.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
To William & KAMA-KAZEE

Here's my original posting after I got the HDTV cable box with DVI back in April (post 294 on this thread) It has photos of what 1080i should look like!

Paul
I understand that the 2335 will do the correct AR with the DVI and RGB inputs. I want to know and see the correct AR using the component input. Can you hook the 2335 up using the component and then post if it will display the correct AR?

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
...Try to ignore all the idiotic 1900x1200 resolution typos!...Paul

Also 1900x1200 is correct. It is his reference to the 2235 being 16x9 that is wrong.

William,

Yes it can. You need to 1st set to "filled to aspect ratio" under the input selection of "DVI-digital". Then when you switch back to component inputs, a 1080i source will have black bars on the top and bottom only!

I have verified this with my JVC 40K D-VHS recorder with movies from HBO-HD that were 1080i.

Similar to the photos I posted for DVI input.

Paul




Originally posted by William
I understand that the 2335 will do the correct AR with the DVI and RGB inputs. I want to know and see the correct AR using the component input. Can you hook the 2335 up using the component and then post if it will display the correct AR?



Also 1900x1200 is correct. It is his reference to the 2235 being 16x9 that is wrong.

I tried discovery HD and it still fills the screen with one to one or fill to aspect... I did set that when I was in DVI digital. Do I need to do that setting when I am in component mode? I tried working the menu in component mode but the ratio area was blacked out. Any ideas? Maybe my monitor is actually 16:9 and not 16:10 LOL.

What is your source?


Originally posted by Kamakzie
I tried discovery HD and it still fills the screen with one to one or fill to aspect... I did set that when I was in DVI digital. Do I need to do that setting when I am in component mode? I tried working the menu in component mode but the ratio area was blacked out. Any ideas? Maybe my monitor is actually 16:9 and not 16:10 LOL.

DirecTV HD TiVo.. HR10-250 to be precise.

It was set to 4:3 in the Tivo setup so I set it up as 16:9, no change. I also have ratio options of full or panel.

I just set my desktop to 1280X1024 and it but black bars on the sides to keep the ratio correct but it doesn't on the component inputs. Maybe the Tivo won't allow it????

P.S. when I set the monitor up it said to hit the auto button but I did that and it did nothing.

Kawakazee,

I could not find anything on the web to verify that your HD TIVO box is 1080i or 1920x1080 ready. As such, perhaps the unit scales everything to full screen.

It shouldn't.

You should call Tivo and find a way to get 1920x1080, if that is in your owner's manual specifications.

The suto switch only works under certain conditions. Read the owners manual for the L2335 (near the end of the CD manual....)

Paul

Originally posted by Kamakzie
P.S. when I set the monitor up it said to hit the auto button but I did that and it did nothing.

LOL, I just posted a message on Tivo Community, maybe they will know. It seems odd that the Tivo could overwrite the monitor settings...

You have nothing de-interlacing the 1080i signal.

Hmmmm what would I need to do that or isn't that possible? Tommy, I am still wet behind the ears with this HD stuff. :)

Just $$$$

See:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=373217

Why is it necessary? It seems like the picture would only go where the monitor allows it to. It's no biggie, the picture looks great I am just being picky I guess. :)

Originally posted by Kamakzie
Why is it necessary? It seems like the picture would only go where the monitor allows it to. It's no biggie, the picture looks great I am just being picky I guess. :)
I'm a true believer in OAR and it is a big deal if the 2335 is distorting the picture by scaling 1.78 to 1.6. I hate to doubt someone's word but why is Paul Chiu the only person to claim to get a 1.78 picture from the component inputs? Of course he could not verify that an HD TiVo (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=HD-DVR250) is HD. :confused:

Well it should do fill to aspect ratio I would imagine. Maybe it will only do fill to aspect ratio right in DVI mode. I don't have DVI cable long enough to try hooking up the HD Tivo that way.

Strange I was just watching Star Trek: Nemesis on Showtime HD and it had bars on the top and bottom. However Discovery HD and the others still fill the screen. I saw an old war movie on HDNetmovies and it had bars also.

Originally posted by Kamakzie
Strange I was just watching Star Trek: Nemesis on Showtime HD and it had bars on the top and bottom. However Discovery HD and the others still fill the screen. I saw an old war movie on HDNetmovies and it had bars also.
This is because all ST films are shot in 2.35 OAR.;)

Ahhh I just thought of that after I posted.

I now have the 100% definitive answer to the big 2335 question. Will the 2335 display a signal from the component input at it's correct aspect ratio?

NO it WILL NOT and it can't be done

Anyone who says it can be done is WRONG.

Curiosity was about to kill the cat so I had to see for myself. My 2335 was manufactured in May and I used a MyHD card hooked to the component inputs. I tried 1080i, 720p, 480p, and 480i with the same results. All signals were stretched vertically to fill the screen at 16x10 (1.6) and the 2335 would not display them at the correct OAR of 16x9 (1.78) no matter what I tried. The custom scaling is grayed out on the component inputs and therefore it is not relevant and has no effect. However to satisfy all possibilities I tried it all 3 ways. Also PIP is grayed out and is not relative but I moved the PIP towards the center to rule this out also.

We all need to e-mail HP about this problem. Maybe it can be fixed with a firmware update.

William, thanks for taking the time to find that out. You guys want to collaborate on an email to send to HP. The stretch through component doesn't look horrible by any means but I wish it could do this. Is it possible to do a firmware update on a monitor???

Originally posted by Kamakzie
William, thanks for taking the time to find that out. You guys want to collaborate on an email to send to HP. The stretch through component doesn't look horrible by any means but I wish it could do this. Is it possible to do a firmware update on a monitor???

Here is the e-mail site (http://atwnt947.external.hp.com/fd2/email_form.cfm?countrycode=US&langcode=en&sni=hpworkstat72270) and a copy of the e-mail I sent (do not send the same one of course:D)

An e-mail sent to HP support by William
I have a 2335 monitor and it has a design defect. When using the component (or S-video) input it displays and distorts the signal at the wrong aspect ratio. For instances an HDTV signal is stretched vertically from it's correct aspect ratio of 16x9 (1.78) 1920x1080 to fill the 2335's panel at 16x10 (1.6) 1920x1200 aspect ratio. For the correct aspect ratio there should be a black border of 1200-1080/2=60 pixels on the top and bottom of the screen. Love this monitor but I'm a stickler for correct aspect ratios. When will this problem be addressed and a firmware update issued?

William, this is what I sent.

"I am using my L2335 through DVI to my computer and through component for my HD signal. I would like for the content to be in the correct aspect ratio and by what I read in the manual I can do that by selecting one to one or fill to aspect ratio. I do that and it still fills the entire screen thus stretching the picture. Can you please make a firmware update to correct this? Perhaps where you could make an option to force the component inputs to do 16:9 (1920x1080) instead of 16:10 (1920x1200)? Thanks! Other then that this is a beautiful monitor!!!!!!"

William,

Care to explain your logic here?

Paul


Originally posted by William

Also 1900x1200 is correct. It is his reference to the 2235 being 16x9 that is wrong.

William,

Just because you cannot get something done, don't start making claims that no one else can. Here is a link to something I FOUND TIME for (you guys) today!

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4286432157&congratulation_page=Y

This is a D-VHS recording of Femme Fatale in 1080i. The machine is the JVC 40K using component inputs into the L2335. You need to go to DVI-digital, then set filled to screen to get the 1st photo. Next, go to DVI-D, set to filled to aspect ratio. Pop back into component video inputs for the 2nd photo.

Paul


Originally posted by William
I'm a true believer in OAR and it is a big deal if the 2335 is distorting the picture by scaling 1.78 to 1.6. I hate to doubt someone's word but why is Paul Chiu the only person to claim to get a 1.78 picture from the component inputs? Of course he could not verify that an HD TiVo (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=HD-DVR250) is HD. :confused:

I just don't understand this. The HD Tivo is sending a 16:9 signal so why isn't the 2335 doing the correct ratio? I sent HP an email but I doubt I will get much of an answer back if at all. Also in your one picture it shows the resolution that you got, I don't see that on mine.


Originally posted by Paul Chiu
This is a D-VHS recording of Femme Fatale in 1080i. The machine is the JVC 40K using component inputs into the L2335. You need to go to DVI-digital, then set filled to screen to get the 1st photo. Next, go to DVI-D, set to filled to aspect ratio. Pop back into component video inputs for the 2nd photo.

Paul

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
William,

Care to explain your logic here?

Paul
1900x1200=16x10 or 1.6
1900x1080=16x9 or 1.78

The 2335 is 1920x1200 16x10 not 1920x1080 16x9.

So you can correctly call the 2335 1920x1200 or 16x10.

You said
Originally posted by Paul Chiu

...Try to ignore all the idiotic 1920x1200 resolution typos!...
Paul

1900x1200 is not idiotic typo but a 100% correct statement. However he keep saying 16x9 in the article which is wrong. The 2335 is 16x10. I pointed this out and he has since explained and corrected this in the article. Now that is perfect logic. ;)



Also tried another trick that did not pan out. I set my desktop through DVI to 1920x1080 using PowerStrip with 1;1 mapping to see if this would force the component to true 16x9, but it did not work.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
William,...This is a D-VHS recording of Femme Fatale in 1080i. The machine is the JVC 40K using component inputs into the L2335. You need to go to DVI-digital, then set filled to screen to get the 1st photo. Next, go to DVI-D, set to filled to aspect ratio. Pop back into component video inputs for the 2nd photo.

Paul
I just tried that and it does not work. I'm looking at the picture and don't see any component cables hooked to the monitor. There is about 1/2" space between the 2 and no cables are visible. It looks like it is being feed by only a DVI cable.

Hey guys simmer down now. :D I just want to figure out why this dang-gum thing isn't doing what it's supposed to. :)

William,

You need a (HP?) calculator.

1920x1200 is 16:10

1900x1200 is NOT 16:10. It is a TYPO by the reviewer. It is wrong. If ever someone is wrong. This is it.

Divide 1900 by 1200. You get 1.5833333333. Not 1.6.


Paul


Originally posted by William
1900x1200=16x10 or 1.6
1900x1080=16x9 or 1.78



1900x1200 is not idiotic typo but a 100% correct statement. However he keep saying 16x9 in the article which is wrong. The 2335 is 16x10. I pointed this out and he has since explained and corrected this in the article. Now that is perfect logic. ;)

Paul, anymore suggestions on what I can do? I'd really like to get component to work in the proper ratio...

I'll excuse you for your lack of math skills.

Your power of deduction (here) is weak and I can almost read that you are accusing me of trickery. If that were the case, these assertions are vain and baseless.

I posted 3 more photos just now. This one is the backside of the screens.

http://www.imagestation.com/mypictures/inbox/view.html?id=4162702714&url=http%3A//www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid124/p20e5427e95de04a09bfe03310bf3f025/f81dcd7a.jpg&caption=L2335%20backside&album_id=4286432157&from_album=1

As you can see, there are ways to attach cables and the L2335 were designed to be "stacked together"!

The other 2 photos are live HBO and SHO shows right now! See the correct aspect ratio!

Lastly, I have posted since March here only becuase I am excited about this display.

I also went through many issues over the last few months with the L2335. But everything can be worked out!

Just try harder.

Cheers,

Paul





Originally posted by William
I just tried that and it does not work. I'm looking at the picture and don't see any component cables hooked to the monitor. There is about 1/2" space between the 2 and no cables are visible. It looks like it is being feed by only a DVI cable.

PM me with you email address, K. I am pretty sick of the s h i t here.

Paul



Originally posted by Kamakzie
Paul, anymore suggestions on what I can do? I'd really like to get component to work in the proper ratio...

Its time for a time out!

Dave

Please no flaming or personal comments.

Stay focused and on topic.

Thanks.

Dave

I just got an e-mail from HP but not sure what to make of it. Does anyone know about or where the zoom feature is located? I can't find it and it's not listed in the manual. Zoom 2 might do the trick if I could locate it.


Originally e-mail from HP support
Hello William,
I am not sure about the HD requirements, but if your using the Svideo i have
found this info which may or may not help you out here.
The HP L2335 23? flat panel monitor includes a zoom feature that allows you to
adjust the viewable image to full screen display. It enhances video performance
by changing the screen?s aspect ratio, the ratio of the picture?s width to its
height, to get 4 to 3 (standard broadcast) and 16 to 9 (widescreen) formats. The
zoom feature is available when the signal input selection is set to composite
video, super video or component video.
To use the zoom feature:
Press the input button on the front panel of the monitor to select one of the
following video sources: S-Video, Composite Video or Component Video.
Press the Menu button on the front panel of the monitor to launch the On Screen
Display (OSD) Main Menu.
Select Image Control from the OSD Main Menu. When the Image Control menu opens,
scroll down to select Image Zoom.
In the Image Zoom menu, use the OSD up and down buttons on the front panel to
select and highlight the desired zoom setting:
Zoom On 1 - optimizes the image for 4:3 format sources such as standard
broadcast formats and the full screen DVD format.
Zoom On 2 - optimizes the image for 16:9 format sources such as widescreen
broadcast and DVD format.
Zoom Off - turns off the Image Zoom feature and defaults to the 1:1 format.
When the desired zoom setting is highlighted, press the Menu button to confirm
the selection. The OSD returns to the Image Control menu. Select the option to
Cancel or Save the new zoom setting.
Press the Menu button and select Exit to close the Main Menu.
NOTE: DVD Wide Screen Modes Some DVD wide screen modes may provide formats
other than 16:9. When this occurs, black video borders may remain visible above
and below the displayed image when Zoom On 2 is active.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
William,

You need a (HP?) calculator.

1920x1200 is 16:10

1900x1200 is NOT 16:10. It is a TYPO by the reviewer. It is wrong. If ever someone is wrong. This is it.

Divide 1900 by 1200. You get 1.5833333333. Not 1.6.


Paul
I stand corrected. I was misreading 1900 as 1920. I'm dyslectic and just didn't see the 2. I even copied 1900 from the reviewers post and then preceded to type 1920 myself without even noticing.

I don't even see that listed. I wonder if they mean the fill to aspect and one to one etc. My response was equally useless from HP.

"Thank you for contacting HP Services.

I found this reference to this particular problem.
Display setting options shown in Table A are supported for VGA mode but are not supported for DVI mode. However, some display adapter drivers may not properly detect the supported (for DVI) settings and may allow a user to select an unsupported option.
Table A: Display Options Not Supported For DVI Port
Display Area Refresh Rate
1600x1200 75 Hertz
1920x1080 60 Hertz
1920x1200 60 Hertz"

Originally posted by Kamakzie
I don't even see that listed. I wonder if they mean the fill to aspect and one to one etc. My response was equally useless from HP.

"Thank you for contacting HP Services.

I found this reference to this particular problem.
Display setting options shown in Table A are supported for VGA mode but are not supported for DVI mode. However, some display adapter drivers may not properly detect the supported (for DVI) settings and may allow a user to select an unsupported option.
Table A: Display Options Not Supported For DVI Port
Display Area Refresh Rate
1600x1200 75 Hertz
1920x1080 60 Hertz
1920x1200 60 Hertz"
I got that same response the first time. I replied with the following (2ed) e-mail to get the response I posted and below is my the response (3ed) to the posted e-mail I got. I don't like giving up.

My 2ed e-mail
I see no reference to the problem of using component input. Forget about
the VGA, DVI inputs, or computer use at all and think only about the
component input located (with the S-Video and composite inputs) on the side
of the monitor. I just want to hook an HDTV tuner to the component input
(not VGA or DVI) and use as an HDTV monitor to watch HD video using the
component input ONLY having nothing to do with VGA or DVI. When I watch HD
video it fills the entire screen top to bottom and is stretched (distorted)
from 16x9 to 16x10. For proper aspect ratio there shroud be black bars of
about 60 pixels wide top and bottom to make the HD picture it's proper
aspect ratio at 16x9 and 1080 vertical pixels (not 16x10 or 1200 vertical
pixels). How can I use Image Control Custom Scaling, Fill to Aspect Ratio
or One to One control in the 2335's OSD Main Menu when they are grayed out
using component input? Why are they grayed out when they are needed to
adjust for proper aspect ratio control? I want to watch HDTV using the
component input at it's proper aspect ratio. Please tell me how to do this
or fix the problem.

My 3ed e-mail
Not sure what you are seeing but here are the choices offered under Image Control using component input: Auto Adjust, Horizontal Position, Vertical Position, Custom Scaling, Sharpness, Clock, Clock Phase. All of them grayed out except Sharpness. There is NO zoom that I can find anywhere in the menu system nor is it listed in the on line manual at http://h200007.www2.hp.com/bc/docs/support/SupportManual/c00090817/c00090817.pdf

Please look at the menu on a 2335 and tell me exactly how to find and activate the zoom command.

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding on HP's part. HP thinks the monitor is 16x9 and is incorrectly listed that way on the web site at http://h18004.www1.hp.com/products/monitors/performance/l2335.html
The 2335 is 16x10 at 1920x1200 or 1.6 aspect ratio (16x9 would be 1920x1080 or 1.78 aspect ratio). You need to write a driver or firmware update that will allow the 16x10 monitor to display 16x9 picture (1:1 Mapping) in the component or S-Video inputs.

Have you gotten any response to your 3rd email?

Your dyslexia with "2" may be getting better already, as you read 1920x1200 as 1900x1200 and not 1900x1000.

Paul




Originally posted by William
I stand corrected. I was misreading 1900 as 1920. I'm dyslectic and just didn't see the 2. I even copied 1900 from the reviewers post and then preceded to type 1920 myself without even noticing.

Originally posted by Kamakzie
Have you gotten any response to your 3rd email?
Noting yet. I want to try one more way but can't get it to work. I have a 1080p desktop setup but want to try a 1080i to the DVI. For some reason my video card or the monitor won't except 1080i even though PowerStrip reports they will.

Do you have a HDMI to DVI adaptor? If you do could you plug your TiVo into the DVI port and send a 1080i signal to the 2335. Then try switching custom scaling and see if by chance it has an effect on the component input. I will be out of until tonight but will check back then.

Must be HP went on vacation. :) Did you try the DVI idea? I really can't very well myself.

Received another l-o-n-g e-mail (but real short on substance) so I will paraphrase the advice given. Use the Image Control... Fill to Aspect Ratio or Fill to Screen controls. Great advice except they (like the Zoom command) are not available. So here is my 4th response.


4th e-mail sent to HP
Seth,

Using the options Fill to screen or fill to aspect ratio WOULD work except they are GRAYED OUT under component input. Will you please send me a firmware update that allows me (and everyone else) to use these controls. I was told in a previous e-mail to use the zoom (3 zooms) function but it does not exist in the menu at all. Does anyone have hands on experience with the 2335? Can someone ACTUALLY plug in the component input and see that the aspect ratio CAN"T be corrected and the design or firmware is DEFECTIVE.

Just the facts:

HP 2335 is 16x10 and stretches all 16x9 (like HDTV) signals vertically using component or S-Video.
HP 2335 is 1920x1200 and HD is 1920x1080 (or 1280x720 scaled to 1920x1080).
1200-1080=120 vertical black lines (60 on top and 60 on bottom) for correct aspect ratio.
Number of vertical black lines possible using component or S-Video inputs is 0.
Picture is stretched and distorted by precisely 120 lines vertically using component or S-Video.
Aspect ratio controls are grayed out and not available using component or S-Video.
Correct geometry or aspect ratio of 16x9 CAN'T be achieved using component or S-Video

I want the picture displayed at the correct aspect ratio which would be 1920x1080 (16x9) on the HP 2335.

PLEASE Tell me how to do this or PLEASE fix (firmware update) the manufacture DEFECT that does not allow the monitor to work (adjust aspect ratio) as it should.

Thanks,
William

Here's the funny response I got...

Shawn,
It sounds like, from your description that this is beyond the support boundries of this monitor. It may be possible to use this device for other uses. However, we have no documentation or
known issues with this or any other monitor with the problem you are describing, since we have not tested them with any type of satellite receiver. The specifications that Kerrick referenced were for normal usage with a PC. I don't know what type of component inputs you are using or there effect of the resolution you would receive by using them with a satallite receiver. Does the monitor work correctly when connected to a PC? If so then the monitor would appear to be working correctly as it was designed and under normal usage.
Thank you for contacting HP customer care.
Brian

Today apple announced three new displays. All are 16:10 all have 16ms response time. 1680 x 1050 at 20", 1920 x 1200 at 23" and 2560 x 1600 at 30". The 30" requires a dual DVI output from a special nVidia 6800 Ultra card, its not clear if this card will work on a PC.

DanW

It's dual-link DVI, not dual DVI.

Originally posted by DanW
...The 30"
<holding tape measure to monitor while posting>
wow. I haven't heard of a monitor this big in the past 3 years.

standby....

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v258/bcorgan20/apple30.gif

wow...

Looks nice but I believe they only work with Macs.

The 20" and 23" work with any PC with DVI. The 30" is said to only work with Macs...for now.

So, assuming that performance is equal (a big assumption but the only one that we can make given the Mac screen was just announced) the 23" question now becomes: is the sleek aluminum worth the $300 premium over the HP - which has the added benefit of screen rotation?

-tony

The 30 should work on a PC with dual-link DVI card, e.g. Quadro FX 2K,3K,4K

Originally posted by wjchan
The 30 should work on a PC with dual-link DVI card, e.g. Quadro FX 2K,3K,4K

Yes, I just looked at the press release again, you are correct. I had just skimmed it earlier. Though it is the first card with dual dual-link connectors, so can be used to drive two of the monitors.

DanW

FYI, the Quadro FX 4000 with 2 dual-link connectors was "announced" a few weeks ago. Availability is supposed to be end of June.

The Mac Geforce 6800 DDL card is essentially that. I'm not too familiar with the differences between Geforce and the workstation Quadro cards but they are essentially the same hardware. Quadro is supposed to be better in OpenGL. You used to be able to turn a Geforce into a Quadro with some hacked driver but nVidia got wind of it and is now doing something in hardware.

Originally posted by DanW
Yes, I just looked at the press release again, you are correct. I had just skimmed it earlier. Though it is the first card with dual dual-link connectors, so can be used to drive two of the monitors.


The maximum pixel-rate of a single-link DVI connector is 165megapixels/sec to 225megapixels/sec.
A dual-link DVI connector uses additional pins IN THE SAME DVI CONNECTOR to implement a second, parallel channel, and has a maximum rate of 330mpix/sec to 450mpix/sec, depending on the DVI TMDS transceiver chips used.

The "GeForce 6800 Ultra" video card announced by Apple is just a derivative of an existing card for Windows PCs. Implementations of the 6800 Ultra generally have two DVI connectors, and each of them could be a dual-link connector if the designer put in the required transceiver chip. Such a card can simultaneously drive two displays requiring dual-link channels, e.g. two of these behemoth 30" 2560x1600 displays !
One thus presumes that a high-end multi-transceiver GeForce 6800 Ultra card plugged into a PC can also drive Apple's latest display.

In summary: With DVI, "dual-link" and "dual-connector" mean totally different things.

Originally posted by Zom
Implementations of the 6800 Ultra generally have two DVI connectors, and each of them could be a dual-link connector if the designer put in the required transceiver chip.
Right. "could" is the magic word in that sentence, as untill now almost none of the non-quadro cards have a dual-link dvi port. I doubt any of the new 6800 or X800 series will either, for now. Even though some will have a two dvi ports (dual-dvi if you will), it seems they will all be single-link ports.
If someone has a link to specs to prove me wrong, I'd be delighted...

Ok, so Apple seems to have just plain lied in its press release.

I don't believe that dual link cards are all that rare. I asked eVGA a while ago if their FX 5950 card supported dual link, and their support assured me that it did. I haven't had the oppertunity to test is, so I can't absolutely confirm this.

DanW

What is particularly impressive about the 30" display is its 16 ms
response time. And all the numbers taken together are looking just
too good :D

Had anyone already seen this display in (high-speed) action?

Man I'll have to get this 30" for the pc in a few years or another 23" myself :D

Koing

Originally posted by William
Received another l-o-n-g e-mail (but real short on substance) so I will paraphrase the advice given. Use the Image Control... Fill to Aspect Ratio or Fill to Screen controls. Great advice except they (like the Zoom command) are not available. So here is my 4th response.

I responded on this topic earlier in the thread.. but if the 2335 is like the f2304 you can change that picture size adjustment by switching to dvi input (the menu item will be selectable), select the option you want, and switch back to component. The menu settings for image control / display scaling are sticky and the setting will be applied to the component signal even though you specifically set it for dvi. Sounds like a bug to me.. but we do what we have to get our displays to work in the absense of any help from HP.

Don't bother trying their tech support (online or phone). I tried for three weeks to find someone who knew anything at all about the monitor. 43 emails and 10 phone calls later I was no closer to finding someone.. so I gave up.

Still love the monitor though dispite the obvious flaws in it.

Keith

Hi guys,

I've been reading this thread the past few days because I'm interested in the HP L2335.

This is for all of you wondering about correct aspect ratio through the component.
COMPONENT CABLES DO NOT CARRY THE ASPECT RATIO WITH THE SIGNAL.

The monitor has NO way of knowing what aspect ratio the source is over component. The only way the monitor is going to display the aspect ratio you want over component is if the monitor allows you to select the aspect ratio. There is no such thing as "fill to aspect" over component. The monitor doesn't know the source's aspect ratio. The monitor will need an option to set the aspect ratio to 4:3, 16:9, or full (16:10 in this case).

A few pages back someone posted a response from HP about the Zoom feature. That sounds like it would cycle through the different aspect ratios. Has anyone found it?

Have some good news about the aspect ratio problem with the 2335's component inputs. I have been on HP about it and have sent and received over 30 e-mails and 3 phone calls. I have an HP engineer assigned to the case and he now (finely) understands and has identified the problem. Here is a copy of the e-mail I just got.
Originally e-mail from HP
Thanks for the information William,

I was able to test the monitor with a DVD player connected and the
picture was full screen and I was unable to adjust it down to a 16:9
aspect ratio. I will be working with engineering on this once I get
back into the office. I will be out of the office next week but your
case is still being worked by engineering how to resolve this. Once I
am back in the office on Monday July 19th I will contact the engineering
group then provide you with an update on the status of the case....

William, this is excellent news! Please keep us up to date as well. :)

Originally posted by Rhys
Hi guys,

I've been reading this thread the past few days because I'm interested in the HP L2335.

This is for all of you wondering about correct aspect ratio through the component.
COMPONENT CABLES DO NOT CARRY THE ASPECT RATIO WITH THE SIGNAL.

The monitor has NO way of knowing what aspect ratio the source is over component. The only way the monitor is going to display the aspect ratio you want over component is if the monitor allows you to select the aspect ratio. There is no such thing as "fill to aspect" over component. The monitor doesn't know the source's aspect ratio. The monitor will need an option to set the aspect ratio to 4:3, 16:9, or full (16:10 in this case).

Perhaps I'm a bit ignorant about it, but how does my TV figure it out, over component? It seems to know when my DVD player or cable box is sending 16:9 video. Something is obviously being sent over for the TV to figure it out. If it's not sending out the aspect ratio through the component cable, then how?

I came across this spec sheet and I can't find any mention of a zoom feature.

http://h18004.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/11868_ca/11868_ca.HTML


VB

Originally posted by Rhys
Hi guys,

I've been reading this thread the past few days because I'm interested in the HP L2335.

This is for all of you wondering about correct aspect ratio through the component.
COMPONENT CABLES DO NOT CARRY THE ASPECT RATIO WITH THE SIGNAL.

The monitor has NO way of knowing what aspect ratio the source is over component. The only way the monitor is going to display the aspect ratio you want over component is if the monitor allows you to select the aspect ratio. There is no such thing as "fill to aspect" over component. The monitor doesn't know the source's aspect ratio. The monitor will need an option to set the aspect ratio to 4:3, 16:9, or full (16:10 in this case).

A few pages back someone posted a response from HP about the Zoom feature. That sounds like it would cycle through the different aspect ratios. Has anyone found it?

It is just not correct to say that the component video signal does not carry the aspect ratio. The signal carries the aspect ratio implicitly by the format be it 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i. These are defined by EIA/CEA 770.2-C and 770.3-C. The aspect ratio for 720p and 1080i are always 16:9; the aspect ratio for 480i and 480p can be either 4:3 or 16:9. No other aspect ratios are contemplated by component video. A monitor that stretches 16:9 material to 16:10 is not implementing component video to the letter of the spec.

We do not yet see displays that do a good job of being both televisions and computer monitors. I hope the manufacturers will get better at this.

(I should also note that the L2335 manual giving Houston contact addresses is a dead giveaway that the product and the engineering group started out as Compaq pre the HP merger.)

Hey guy's, I just picked up one of these puppies and all I can say is WOW!
The PQ is right this time.
I just played a bit of Independence Day using Power DVD; it played beautifully.
I bought a refurb unit, most probably open box return.(less than $1350) Not a dead pixel in the house.
No notice of smearing during playback.
Using DVI connection.
The 1920x1200 PQ for PC is also great.
I'd be interested in what the engineers tell William about this monitor.
VB

Originally posted by tenton
Perhaps I'm a bit ignorant about it, but how does my TV figure it out, over component? It seems to know when my DVD player or cable box is sending 16:9 video. Something is obviously being sent over for the TV to figure it out. If it's not sending out the aspect ratio through the component cable, then how?


Because your dvd player sets the aspect ratio. That's why your dvd player has a 4:3 setting and a "widescreen" setting.

If your source box (eg. dvd player, cable box, etc.) is set to output 4:3 then it will scale the material to 4:3.

That's why if you leave your dvd player set to 4:3 and hook it up to a 16:9 tv, everyone will look squished, because the dvd player is setting the aspect ratio.

Originally posted by martyj19
It is just not correct to say that the component video signal does not carry the aspect ratio. The signal carries the aspect ratio implicitly by the format be it 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i. These are defined by EIA/CEA 770.2-C and 770.3-C. The aspect ratio for 720p and 1080i are always 16:9; the aspect ratio for 480i and 480p can be either 4:3 or 16:9. No other aspect ratios are contemplated by component video. A monitor that stretches 16:9 material to 16:10 is not implementing component video to the letter of the spec.

That may be the standards, but the display device still has NO way of knowing whether to display that 480 signal as 4:3 or 16:9. For the monitor to assume one of those ratios would prevent you from ever being able to see the other aspect ratio. I'd be pretty pissed if my monitor decided that all 480 material must be displayed as 16:9.

Originally posted by Rhys
Because your dvd player sets the aspect ratio. That's why your dvd player has a 4:3 setting and a "widescreen" setting.

If your source box (eg. dvd player, cable box, etc.) is set to output 4:3 then it will scale the material to 4:3.

That's why if you leave your dvd player set to 4:3 and hook it up to a 16:9 tv, everyone will look squished, because the dvd player is setting the aspect ratio.

That doesn't make any sense to me. How does the TV know what the correct aspect ratio is? It's only getting video from the component cables. If the aspect ratio isn't being sent, how does it know what to do? If the DVD player sets the ratio, how is that information being sent to let the TV in on the secret, so it knows what to do? It's only connected via component cables.

Anamorphic video from a DVD player is just 4:3 video, squeezed to increase vertical resolution. DVD players will automatically letterbox (that is, generate the black bars at the top and bottom and combine every 4 lines of video into 3) for 4:3 ratio only display. I'm under the impression that the video is sent 4:3 out of the DVD player regardless and the TV handles the scaling, zooming, unsqueezing, etc. The setting is to let your DVD player know what to do with the video (letterbox it, generating the black bars or to send the video as is).

Let me give you an example with my 4:3 Sony (supports anamorphic squeeze mode).

What the anamorphic squeeze mode does is shut off the guns pointing at the top and bottom of my screen (36" direct view, essentially turning the TV into a 34" 16:9 display). You can tell when it does this by accessing the TV's menu and seeing the menu vertically sized to fit in the section that is getting painted. It knows when to do this when I play an anamorphic DVD, vs. non-anamorphic content (the guns don't turn off; the full 36" screen displays video). Now, the DVD player must be letting the TV know on some level what to do.

BTW, my cable box is set to send the video signal as is (no scaling) to the TV. There is no 4:3 setting or widescreen setting on it. Then again, all the 480 content I'm aware of is 4:3; all the 720p and 1080i content is 16:9.

Originally posted by tenton
That doesn't make any sense to me. How does the TV know what the correct aspect ratio is? It's only getting video from the component cables. If the aspect ratio isn't being sent, how does it know what to do? If the DVD player sets the ratio, how is that information being sent to let the TV in on the secret, so it knows what to do? It's only connected via component cables.

Sorry, my previous post is pretty unclear about dvds. More info below.
But first:
The tv doesn't know the correct aspect ratio. All a tv can do (through component) is make assumptions:
1) assume all 720p and 1080i should be shown in 16x9. This is incorrect because althought that might be the defined standard there are exceptions. ESPN was broadcasting in 720p 4:3 aspect for a while. They may still.
2) assume all anamorphic dvds should be shown in 16x9



Anamorphic video from a DVD player is just 4:3 video, squeezed to increase vertical resolution. DVD players will automatically letterbox (that is, generate the black bars at the top and bottom and combine every 4 lines of video into 3) for 4:3 ratio only display. I'm under the impression that the video is sent 4:3 out of the DVD player regardless and the TV handles the scaling, zooming, unsqueezing, etc. The setting is to let your DVD player know what to do with the video (letterbox it, generating the black bars or to send the video as is).

The dvd player knows if a dvd is anamorphic or not. If you are watching a non-anamorphic dvd the dvd player will output a 4:3 signal which is the same aspect ratio stored on the dvd. An anamorphic dvd is not stored in the correct aspect ratio.

If you are watching an anamorphic dvd and have the dvd player set to 4:3 it will squeeze (make smaller) the image vertically 25%. The output signal is still 4:3 but the original dvd content has been squished to 16:9 (which will be the correct aspect ratio). The dvd player adds extra bars to the top and bottom. Now, that 16:9 image might contain a 2.35:1 movie with more black boarders that were stored on the dvd but it will still be in the correct aspect ratio.

If you are watching an anamorphic dvd and have the dvd player set to 16:9 it will not squeeze the image. It outputs a 4:3 signal but the source image will be tall and skinny. With the dvd player set to 16:9, all material will come off the dvd exactly like it was stored.

Now, to view this on a 4:3 tv, you can just watch it tall and skinny, or if you have the vertical squeeze (aka 16:9 mode) the tv will squeeze the image vertically 25% by compressing the scan lines into a 16:9 aspect ratio like you said. More on the squeeze below.

Viewing this on a 16:9 tv: If you use mode 4:3 everyong will look tall and skinny; 16:9 mode will look correct; and ZOOM mode will look tall and skinny but with the top and bottom chopped off.


Let me give you an example with my 4:3 Sony (supports anamorphic squeeze mode).

What the anamorphic squeeze mode does is shut off the guns pointing at the top and bottom of my screen (36" direct view, essentially turning the TV into a 34" 16:9 display). You can tell when it does this by accessing the TV's menu and seeing the menu vertically sized to fit in the section that is getting painted. It knows when to do this when I play an anamorphic DVD, vs. non-anamorphic content (the guns don't turn off; the full 36" screen displays video). Now, the DVD player must be letting the TV know on some level what to do.

You MUST have your dvd player in 16:9 mode or the tv won't have anything to squeeze. Are you saying the tv goes into squeeze mode automatically? If so, then the tv must be able to recongnize that the input is anamorphic and so it goes into squeeze mode. Since the dvd player can recognize anamorphic dvds, I guess certain tvs can as well.

The TV is making the assumption that all anamorphic dvds should be shown in 16:9. That's a safe assumption, but that does not mean the tv can recognize the different aspect ratios.

That is why 16:9 tvs have a 4:3 mode, ZOOM mode, and 16:9 mode. The TV cannot know which one to use. It won't know if you're sending it a 4:3 program or a 1.85:1 non-anamorphic dvd or a 2.35:1 non-anamorphic dvd.


BTW, my cable box is set to send the video signal as is (no scaling) to the TV. There is no 4:3 setting or widescreen setting on it. Then again, all the 480 content I'm aware of is 4:3; all the 720p and 1080i content is 16:9.

Many TVs lock into 16:9 mode for 720p and 1080i. It's making an assumption about the aspect ratio. Many people were complaining about that when ESPN was broadcasting a 4:3 signal at 720p. The TVs would lock into 16:9 and everyone would look strecthed.

Also, I think FOX does some broadcasts in 480 widescreen.


Anywho, back to the L2335, if anyone wants to argue that it should display as 16:9 over component when feed a 720p or 1080i signal, that's fine. But there's no way it can know the correct aspect ratio for 480i or 480p. It will need a 16:9, ZOOM, and 4:3 mode for the component input, just like all 16:9 tvs.


Btw, I hope I don't sound snooty or act like a know it all. I didn't know tvs could auto detect dvds and go into squeeze mode by themselves until now. I want to learn like everyone else.

:)

William,

Anything back yet from HP?

Originally posted by Kamakzie
William,

Anything back yet from HP?
E-mailed them this morning but have not heard back yet.

so I just read somewhere and i wanted to confirm that the L2335 is a widescreen monitor? is it or is it not? here is the pertaining article where it says
http://reviews.designtechnica.com/review1695_main8483.html

Part2: Also is there a coax input? or do I have to run it through say a VCR?




Thanks for your help

Nate

Originally posted by Rhys
Sorry, my previous post is pretty unclear about dvds. More info below.
But first:
The tv doesn't know the correct aspect ratio. All a tv can do (through component) is make assumptions:
1) assume all 720p and 1080i should be shown in 16x9. This is incorrect because althought that might be the defined standard there are exceptions. ESPN was broadcasting in 720p 4:3 aspect for a while. They may still.

They aren't, at least not through my cable provider (Charter). It's 720p 16:9 (they've added sidebars to 4:3 content).


If you are watching an anamorphic dvd and have the dvd player set to 16:9 it will not squeeze the image. It outputs a 4:3 signal but the source image will be tall and skinny. With the dvd player set to 16:9, all material will come off the dvd exactly like it was stored.

Now, to view this on a 4:3 tv, you can just watch it tall and skinny, or if you have the vertical squeeze (aka 16:9 mode) the tv will squeeze the image vertically 25% by compressing the scan lines into a 16:9 aspect ratio like you said. More on the squeeze below.

I do understand that. But....while the DVD player knows what is anamorphic and what is not (unless it's flagged wrong); how does that information get sent along to the TV? If it's 16:9 material being sent in a 4:3 frame (ie, anamorphic, unsqueezed), how does the TV know to automatically apply the squeeze properly, as opposed to just letting the video appear as is (tall and skinny)? My understanding (which you've also noted) with the DVD player in 16:9 monitor mode is that it's just sending the video unmolested to the TV. Something else has to be sent along with the signal to let the TV know that it's anamorphic. It might not be an exact aspect ratio, but it's something, isn't it?

BTW, I do believe my TV does not lose resolution when applying the anamorphic squeeze (ie, combine 4 lines into 3 for like the DVD player does when set to 4:3 mode); I'm not sure what resolution the TV actually resolves, but it's an HD capable TV (my geek instincts haven't overcome my laziness yet) and it looks to me that it's showing the full resolution of the DVD (as compared to when I let the DVD player molest anamorphic video)


You MUST have your dvd player in 16:9 mode or the tv won't have anything to squeeze. Are you saying the tv goes into squeeze mode automatically? If so, then the tv must be able to recongnize that the input is anamorphic and so it goes into squeeze mode. Since the dvd player can recognize anamorphic dvds, I guess certain tvs can as well.

Actually, that's not quite what I'm saying. It's my understanding is that when the DVD player is set to 16:9 monitor mode, it just sends the raw 4:3 frame to the TV. The TV knows that it's supposed to be 16:9 and do the appropriate thing. How does it know to do this with an anamorphic 4:3 frame vs. non-anamorphic 4:3 frame? The DVD player knows what kind of video it is because of the flags on the DVD (I assume it's reading the DAR in the MPEG-2 stream). How does the TV know this, when it's just getting an analog video signal (via the component cables)? That's what I'm getting confused on.


The TV is making the assumption that all anamorphic dvds should be shown in 16:9. That's a safe assumption, but that does not mean the tv can recognize the different aspect ratios.


My only question on this is...how does the TV know it's anamorphic video? The DVD player knows, of course, based on the DAR flags in the video stream, but how is that information transmitted to the TV? The DVD player is sending the 4:3 video frame (unsqueezed), but somehow the TV knows what the proper aspect ratio is?


That is why 16:9 tvs have a 4:3 mode, ZOOM mode, and 16:9 mode. The TV cannot know which one to use. It won't know if you're sending it a 4:3 program or a 1.85:1 non-anamorphic dvd or a 2.35:1 non-anamorphic dvd.

I thought those modes are for people's preferences. 4:3 being for people who don't mind having side bars, zoom for 4:3 letterboxed video (to zoom in closer to get a fuller picture) and 16:9 mode for anamorphic (and HD) content.

It doesn't matter if the film content is (non-anamorphic) letterboxed 1.85:1 or 2.35:1; as far as the DVD player is concerned, it's regular 4:3 video (even though a good portion of the video is black bars). The proper aspect ratio (as far as the video stream is concerned) is 4:3. Zoom mode is an option for the TV to show a blown up picture (to eliminate the TV generated bars on the side and minimize the black bars on the top and the bottom of the video frame) ; it doesn't have anything to do with the aspect ratio of the video being sent (the black bars encoded are a legitimate part of the video).

(btw, DAR is display aspect ratio and is a normal part of an MPEG-2 stream).

Originally posted by Maverick374
so I just read somewhere and i wanted to confirm that the L2335 is a widescreen monitor? is it or is it not? here is the pertaining article where it says
http://reviews.designtechnica.com/review1695_main8483.html

Part2: Also is there a coax input? or do I have to run it through say a VCR?
1) The review is wrong. It's "widescreen" but 16:10 like most widescreen computer monitors, not 16:9 like HDTVs.

2) If by "coax" you mean composite video, yes. If you mean RF, then no, it has no tuner, and you'll need a VCR with a composite or component video out.

Originally posted by tenton
They aren't, at least not through my cable provider (Charter). It's 720p 16:9 (they've added sidebars to 4:3 content).



I do understand that. But....while the DVD player knows what is anamorphic and what is not (unless it's flagged wrong); how does that information get sent along to the TV? If it's 16:9 material being sent in a 4:3 frame (ie, anamorphic, unsqueezed), how does the TV know to automatically apply the squeeze properly, as opposed to just letting the video appear as is (tall and skinny)? My understanding (which you've also noted) with the DVD player in 16:9 monitor mode is that it's just sending the video unmolested to the TV. Something else has to be sent along with the signal to let the TV know that it's anamorphic. It might not be an exact aspect ratio, but it's something, isn't it?

That's what I'm not sure of. The dvd has to be passing that anamorphic flag on to the TV somehow.


BTW, I do believe my TV does not lose resolution when applying the anamorphic squeeze (ie, combine 4 lines into 3 for like the DVD player does when set to 4:3 mode); I'm not sure what resolution the TV actually resolves, but it's an HD capable TV (my geek instincts haven't overcome my laziness yet) and it looks to me that it's showing the full resolution of the DVD (as compared to when I let the DVD player molest anamorphic video)


The tv should be using all the scan lines, it just scrunches them closer together in squeeze mode.




Actually, that's not quite what I'm saying. It's my understanding is that when the DVD player is set to 16:9 monitor mode, it just sends the raw 4:3 frame to the TV. The TV knows that it's supposed to be 16:9 and do the appropriate thing. How does it know to do this with an anamorphic 4:3 frame vs. non-anamorphic 4:3 frame? The DVD player knows what kind of video it is because of the flags on the DVD (I assume it's reading the DAR in the MPEG-2 stream). How does the TV know this, when it's just getting an analog video signal (via the component cables)? That's what I'm getting confused on.



My only question on this is...how does the TV know it's anamorphic video? The DVD player knows, of course, based on the DAR flags in the video stream, but how is that information transmitted to the TV? The DVD player is sending the 4:3 video frame (unsqueezed), but somehow the TV knows what the proper aspect ratio is?


Some one on here must know how these TVs auto detect anamorphic material.




I thought those modes are for people's preferences. 4:3 being for people who don't mind having side bars, zoom for 4:3 letterboxed video (to zoom in closer to get a fuller picture) and 16:9 mode for anamorphic (and HD) content.

It doesn't matter if the film content is (non-anamorphic) letterboxed 1.85:1 or 2.35:1; as far as the DVD player is concerned, it's regular 4:3 video (even though a good portion of the video is black bars). The proper aspect ratio (as far as the video stream is concerned) is 4:3. Zoom mode is an option for the TV to show a blown up picture (to eliminate the TV generated bars on the side and minimize the black bars on the top and the bottom of the video frame) ; it doesn't have anything to do with the aspect ratio of the video being sent (the black bars encoded are a legitimate part of the video).


You need the different modes on a 16:9 TV because you would want to watch 4:3 material in the 4:3 mode (i.e. it doesn't strech the picture horizontally or vertically). You would want to watch non-anamorphic material in ZOOM mode (i.e. it streches the image 33% both vertically and horizontally). And you want to watch anamorphic material in 16:9 mode (i.e. it stretches 33% horizonatlly but none vertically). You need those 3 modes because there's 3 possible source types (4:3, 16:9 non-anamorphic, & 16:9 anamorphic).


(btw, DAR is display aspect ratio and is a normal part of an MPEG-2 stream).

Interesting, I'll check that out.

Hmmm, ok after reading up on the DAR, it looks like that pretty much just tells whether the material is anamorphic or not. So if that is passed through the signal on to the TV, then the TV is probably checking that and if it's set to 16:9 (which means the material is anamorphic) then the TV goes into squeeze mode.

So, I was partly wrong. It would appear that a TV/monitor should capable of checking for that DAR setting and know if the signal is anamorphic. If so, it should be able to automatically go into 16:9 mode.

But, if the DAR is set to 4:3 the material could still be either 4:3 or 16:9 non-anamorphic. So the monitor wouldn't know when to display it as 4:3 and when to display it as 16:9. (if it displayed it as 4:3 then the 16:9 non-anamorphic would still be in the correct aspect ratio, but would have giant black boarders on the top, bottom, left, and right.)

Also, if you hook an xbox up to the monitor there won't be any DAR flags to tell whether to display it as 4:3 or 16:9.

William,

Still nothing back from HP?

I'm late to this game, but given the $1600 pricetag at hp.com on the L2335, is there really any other choice at this point?

Originally posted by Kamakzie
William,

Still nothing back from HP?
Still going around and around. If I had to pay for e-mails I could buy another monitor. Maybe tomorrow, but it starting to look like a BIG stall tactic and they are starting to wear me down.:(

Hey,

I had a thought about this scaling problem. It seems that HP has issues with overscan and component inputs.

Has anyone tried running component video through a Component to VGA transcoder (key digital/audio authority) and then running the signal in via the VGA port? This might:
a) Open up the ratio menus (1:1 etc...) and
b) Eliminate the overscan problems as even HP would assume that VGA has no overscan.

I do this with an old Viewonic monitor (VP181) and it works great - but am waiting before I pull the trigger on a 2335 (actually 2 of them).

Also - has anybody come across a dual display stand for the HP that matches the color of the LCD? I can only seem to find black ones.

Thanks.

Originally posted by skavan
Hey,

I had a thought about this scaling problem. It seems that HP has issues with overscan and component inputs.

Has anyone tried running component video through a Component to VGA transcoder (key digital/audio authority) and then running the signal in via the VGA port? This might:
a) Open up the ratio menus (1:1 etc...) and
b) Eliminate the overscan problems as even HP would assume that VGA has no overscan....
It's not an overscan issue. The 2335 simply stretches a 16x9 (1.78) image to fill the 16x10 (1.6) panel. Any overscanning would cause the image to be stretched even more. A VGA transcoder would do the trick, but the monitor should have aspect ratio control available for all inputs.

HP is working on a firm ware update but the bad news is you would have to send your monitor to HP for the update to be installed.

Please tell me they will offer an advanced RMA option for this. Having to send in the monitor first seems ridicules!


Originally posted by William
It's not an overscan issue. The 2335 simply stretches a 16x9 (1.78) image to fill the 16x10 (1.6) panel. Any overscanning would cause the image to be stretched even more. A VGA transcoder would do the trick, but the monitor should have aspect ratio control available for all inputs.

HP is working on a firm ware update but the bad news is you would have to send your monitor to HP for the update to be installed.

Could they just send us the upgrade over the net, or on a CD??
What is one supposed to do in the meantime, go back to your old monitor, if you haven't sold it???
Vb

Originally posted by 3.1415926 pi
Could they just send us the upgrade over the net, or on a CD??
What is one supposed to do in the meantime, go back to your old monitor, if you haven't sold it???
Vb

As for a software upgrade, it would have to:

A: have a flashable firmware (it could be burned on non-flashable chips)

B: have some sort of data connection to send the firmware; I somehow doubt you can send program data via VGA or any of the TV components (since they're analog video connections); I'm not sure if you could send program data via DVI (I've never heard of it, but I've seen too many things to say "impossible" or "never").

You'd need a serial port to flash the firmware (or similar). And one that is actually wired into the monitor, not just a passthrough port (like a USB included on the base or something) for hooking up a keyboard.

Mark

William, anything new as far as updates from HP?

Looks like you can buy a L2335 refurb for about $1500. Anyone have any experience with that? I'm assuming at the very least they have been sent back for not quite enough bad pixels to dis-qualify them for resale. I'm thinking it's probably not worth the risk for $100.

But what's the risk when buying one new? Anyone have any experience trying to get HP direct to swap one of these monitors for just one or two bad/stuck pixels? How about Best Buy?

And has anyone gotten one yet that has the native 1080i resolution thing fixed?

What about a PC compatible video card that supports the Apple 30" display at native 2560x1600? Any idea how HD would scale on a display like this?

Thanks

As someone interested in the L2335 primarily for use as an HDTV (and only secondarily for PC use), I was wondering if any resolution was reached concerning the component video input scaling issue, particularly as to the validity of the workaround proposed on page 33 (sorry, I can't post a link yet). Also, has anybody had success using the L2335 with Time Warner in NYC when connected via DVI (given the lack of HDCP support)?

Thanks in advance,

Jason

Nevermind.

Vb

William, I know it's been asked before, but any news from HP yet?


unclfuzzy,
I got a refurb for less than $1400, and it look great.
No dead pixels!
Vb

I am a new member of this thread, and all of you with "aspect ratio" problems with their HP L2335 or F2304 Widescreen HDTV monitors, might be interested in my experience with HP support.

I have been using a F2304 for almost 3 months now, and have chronicled my experiences on a website at hpimperfect.home.att.net. I posted the detailed information of my problems with the f2304 there since HP support could never seem to accept anything in writing with pictures. Now, they have no more excuse.

I will keep you posted on my attempts to get someone in HP Engineering (responsible for design or maintenance of f2304) to listen to my problems. I am a firmware engineer (of 40 years) and will not give up until someone responds to my problems -- which are clearly firmware related.

Incidentally, HP drop-shipped a replacement monitor once already, supposedly with improved firmware, but it had the exact same symptoms. I returned the replacement monitor (and kept my original one) since they both had only one stuck pixel and the original one had the least visible such defect. Obviously, HP can use this method to "update" us if and when any fixes are forthcoming.

You can see from my website that in order to change aspect ratios you must have a DVI source actually connected and working (fortunately my VOOM satellite receiver had both DVI and Component outputs). However,
once you change the DVI source, the changes propagate to all other sources as well. Even S-Video maps to approximately 4:3 instead of 16:10.
However, the changes are not persistent for the HDTV sources. The "One to One" mode seems to work well for the HDTV sources, and are persistent, but they have other "interlacing" problems evident that do not appear with the "Map to Aspect Ratio" mode.

I will keep you all informed with my progress. I discovered that the HP Media Center PC support group has been the most responsive, at least agreeing with me that the problem are real and should be fixed. At this point, however, they seem to be unable to actually contact anyone in Engineering that is reponsible for such firmware problems.

Hello Byron. I can't tell you how timely your note here, and the web site you created are. All last night, I was fighting with f2304, trying to get the darn thing to display a DVD full screen and not window boxed, using my samsung DVD+ATSC tuner box. My situation was complicated by Samsung's refusal to output its DVD signal on anything but component (if macrovision is on, it will turn off its other sources). It is so annoying to have a 23" display, show a DVD sized as if it is a 17" inch monitor.

While I think a lot of issues you list on your web site can be fixed in firmware (e.g. poor UI for input selection) I am not convinced that firmware changes can fix everything. It is totally possible for example, that their video pipeline for component is simply broken and is not able to handle the proper scaling and this is the reason they are turning it off.

I am going to go through my exec contacts at HP and see if I can get to the people who run the monitor division. If I succeed, I will let you know what progress I make. This display is too nice to have it suffer this way from useability point of view.

Amir
Microsoft

TByronT, tried your URL, but can't get to it.
Any suggestions?
Vb

Originally posted by 3.1415926 pi
TByronT, tried your URL, but can't get to it.
Any suggestions?
Vb

Try these URLs... now that I can format them correctly.

hpimperfect.home.att.net

which is ATT.NET's shorthand notation for...

http://home.att.net/~hpimperfect

Byron Thomas

Try this link (http://hpimperfect.home.att.net).

Amir

Originally posted by amirm
... All last night, I was fighting with f2304, trying to get the darn thing to display a DVD full screen and not window boxed, ...

I am going to go through my exec contacts at HP and see if I can get to the people who run the monitor division. If I succeed, I will let you know what progress I make. This display is too nice to have it suffer this way from useability point of view.

Amir
Microsoft

Hello again! I hope your inquiries are answered by HP. But I fear that pursuing this matter through your business contacts will result in you not being permitted to publically comment on what you learn. (I.e., you will gain access to priveleged information, which you then can't disclose.)

That being the likely scenario, perhaps we could work out a secret wink-wink handshake. For example, if an avsforum member asks a sensitive question, like "can the F2304 display a 720p component(YPbPr) signal at correct 16:9 aspect-ratio?", your response of "YES, of course it can!" would be an ovious positive affirmation. Whereas a response of "I can't comment on that matter", could be safely interpreted to mean 'NO' :)

I hope I'm not being too paranoid. I considered buying an L2335 or F2304, but the limited aspect-ratio control changed my mind (for now.) For a cheap device (<$500), I'm willing to live with an imperfect display, but >$1500, I'd expect a little more.

Understood :D.

Seriously, my hope is to get HP to read this thread and respond themselves so that I don't have to be in the position of deciding what to say, and what not to say.

Amir

Will I just got my "new" firmware updated HP 2335 that is supposed to correct the aspect ratio problem. It has 2 Zoom settings added under Image Control that are accessible using component and S-Video input. It still doesn't work correctly as you can see by clicking here (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=3965380093). The left is Zoom Player driven through DVI at the correct 1.78 aspect ratio. On the right is the new firmware using component inputs showing each available Zoom. It is amazing that no one at HP has a clue about aspect ratios. I now have 31 e-mails to and 29 e-mails from HP on this.

William are you still going to try to get them to figure it out?

Originally posted by Kamakzie
William are you still going to try to get them to figure it out?
Well I just sent e-mail #32 telling them to pick up the monitor and look at the pictures to see the problem. I've sent detailed, simplified, and everything in between descriptions. Have also posted pictures but they don't get it. If the problem is ever corrected you would have to send your monitor back to have the firmware updated.

What was the turn around time?

Originally posted by William
... If the problem is ever corrected you would have to send your monitor back to have the firmware updated. The business model (L2335) includes three year on-site support. I would hope they could manage such a repair in-home.

I just returned my expensive component cables and went back to S-Video for now. The S-Video image is much softer but not plagued by obvious artifacts. I'm tempted to pipe everthing through the computer for DVI-D only output but I'd miss the PIP which I use heavily (could still PIP on the PC).

Originally posted by tenton
BTW, my cable box is set to send the video signal as is (no scaling) to the TV. There is no 4:3 setting or widescreen setting on it. Then again, all the 480 content I'm aware of is 4:3; all the 720p and 1080i content is 16:9.
Although all 720p and 1080i content may be 16:9, all 480 content is NOT 4:3. PBS-HD channel (and many FOX DTV OTA stations) broadcast quite a bit of SDTV 480p (progressive) Widescreen programs at 16:9 -- which is not HDTV (its actually called EDTV for enhanced) but looks quite good -- until you get up close. However, all SDTV 480i (interlaced) content that I know of is always 4:3.

As to all your concerns about "anamorphic" programs (i.e., widescreen DVD content with an aspect ratio "wider" and "shorter" than 16:9), these are simply transmitted from a DVD player as a 4:3 picture with extra black scan lines added at the top and bottom. This is true whether you are using the S-Video or Composite Video output (480i, interlaced) or the better Component Video output (480p, progressive scan) of the DVD. Thus, the actual "anamorphic" picture you see always has less than 480 visible "lines" of vertical resolution.

Satellite or cable set-top-box receivers, but only if they have HDTV capablilites, may have DVI and Component Video outputs with higher than 480i or 480p capabilities. They may also have an "extra" 480i Composite or S-Video output for driving "old" analog TVs, in addition to their HDTV outputs. Such HD boxes may up-convert all 480 content to 720p or 1080i widescreen on the HDTV outputs. If they do, there are usually menu choices in the box to scale 4:3 content in various ways. For example, with black bars on the left and right. Such receivers may also "improve" the 480 content by various "video processing" algorithms that interpolate a "better picture". So, be sure you check the menus on your receiver to make sure you have taken advantage of all the reformatting available there -- before you expect your monitor to do it for you.

In my case, my Voom satellite receiver has integrated an "over-the-air" (OTA) DTV receiver for all local DTV channels, and even includes an "amplified" VHF-UHF antenna mounted to the satellite dish. Voom recently "downloaded" new firmware to this receiver that allowed me to "scan" for all the OTA local channels. At the same time, it added the ability of showing all 480i content as true 4:3, even though my HP f2304 would show it stretched 16:10. It does this, of course, by reformatting the 4:3 signal to 1080i (16:10) with black bars on the left and right.

Even if an analog picture (e.g., S-Video or Composite Video for SDTV, and Component video for HDTV/EDTV) carries no information about the aspect ratio -- the final HDTV display can still make "firmware decisions" that scale the picture in appropriate ways. My HP f2304 could have "manually" assigned a 4:3 aspect ratio to the SDTV signal sources and 16:9 aspect ratio to the HDTV sources -- but it did not. In default factory mode it always fills its screen which is 16:10 (1920X1200) instead of 16:9 (1920X1080). See my website at http://hpimperfect.home.att.net for its problems in that area. It should have always assigned a true 4:3 aspect ratio to the SDTV input sources, but instead HP made its bad design choice.